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Oh, scite... -- RichardX1, 19:08:32 03/12/03 Wed

Well, maybe now we'll find out if the Slayer's enhanced abilities "stack" with vampire powers, to borrow a role-playing term.

[> Spoilers for 'Release' in above post (NT) -- Doug, 19:13:11 03/12/03 Wed

[> [> Re: Spoilers for 'Release' in above post (NT) -- RichardX1, 19:19:24 03/12/03 Wed

Yeah, I would have corrected that problem faster if FUCKING VOYFORUMS WASN'T SO GODDAMN SLOW!!!!!

[> That post up there has a **teeeeensy** spoiler for 'Release' -- RichardX1, 19:15:59 03/12/03 Wed

[> Don't you just love it ... (spoilers for Release, sort of) -- Silky, 19:24:46 03/12/03 Wed

when Joss ends the show and your jaw is on the floor? Eeckk!

Finally - S.7 BtVS might get interesting (I've been kinda bored up till now). Angel has been good all season, tho.

[> Re: Oh, scite...(spoilers) -- nitewalker, 20:20:52 03/12/03 Wed

if faith becomes a vampire, cant willow just curse her with a soul?

[> [> Re: Oh, scite...(spoilers) -- Wilhelm Wolf, 21:16:43 03/12/03 Wed

yes, but the vampire that has Faith body and memories still will not be Faith...

AND HOLY "SCITE", one of Buffy's slayerettes becomes the Slayer!!

AHHHH!

Slay ya' later,
~Wilhelm Wolf~

[> [> [> I'm a spolier slut extraordinaire..... Serious spoils lie beneath: -- Briar Rose, 17:02:29 03/13/03 Thu

#1 never listen to the "voice over" for the coming episode and assume it's really the story line to come.*LOL

#2 Faith was fighting even more badly than thus far thois season for a reason, and unless she dies from an OD on the drugs she ingested in her planning for this meeting with Angel, it's very likely that Angel never gets the chance to truly drink her, let alone turn her.

#3 No reason for Willow to do anything to Faith's soul because Faith isn't turning, dying or going anywhere but Sunnydale.

My spec based on the last few times we've seen Faith during the past 4 seasons of Angel?

Faith is showing signs that she is NOT the "true Slayer" anymore. Anyone else notice that her first scenes with Angel and then Buffy in season 2 showed that she didn't have the reflexes and healing abilities in the measure Buffy has? She also didn't show them in these past two episodes. Faith is obviously a strong physical presence, but really no stronger NormalAngel or Riley or any of the Initiative was, no where near full Slayer Powered anymore if you watch the amount of poundage she received versus her wounds and physical gait after the encounters so far.

#4 Another Slayer will not be called until Buffy dies for good one last time. Even if Faith died at this point in time, ME would figure out a way to bring the hints I mentioned above together to explain that Faith's initial turn to the Black Hats forfeited her Slayer powers. For one thing, it makes ME's options SMALLER for a follow up series, not larger as many assume, because they are then stuck with no place to go but to start another Slayer storyline.

[> Technical and story telling issues (spoilers Release) -- KdS, 09:51:59 03/13/03 Thu

So far as we know, no Slayer has ever been vampirised. (Yes, I know about Yvonne Navarro's Silent Scream, in which a 1930s German Slayer gets vamped, but as I understand it the ME production team have no creative control over the prose fiction spin-offs and consider them entirely non-canonical.)

Given the recent revelations about the Slayer origin, one can think of several possibilities:

i) The Slayer Demon moves on to the next Slayer or dissipates in the usual manner when a Slayer dies. The dead Slayer becomes a normal vampire.

ii) The Slayer Demon and the Vampire Demon are incompatible, the siring fails and the Slayer just dies.

iii) The Slayer demon merges or co-exists with the Vampire Demon, but a new Slayer is created as usual because it isn't the same demon in every Slayer. Unfortunately the dead Slayer is now some kind of super-powered Slayer/vamp hybrid.

or worst of all:

iv) The same demon is passed down the line of all the Slayers, but if a Slayer gets vamped the two demons coexist and *no new Slayer is called*. Very unpleasant, but unlikely, as the fact that both Kendra and Faith were called while Buffy was still alive suggests that it isn't just one demon being passed on down the line. (Unless you're one of the faction who believe that Buffy has been working off some other power source since Prophecy Girl, which to me seems incompatible with her clear connections to the Slayer Line in Restless, Intervention and Get It Done.)

On the other hand, I think that if Angelus manages to sire Faith, Faith is gone (sob). I don't believe that they would have Faith as a souled vampire, because it just gets silly if there are too many souled vamps wandering around (raises the question of why don't they get some badass witches together and just soul the lot of them) and risks conflicting with the key philosophical thrust of BtVS S4-7, that non-humanness and superpowers are an adolescent attempt to evade reality. If Faith gets to be a souled vamp with no happiness clause and not even any big extra evil on her conscience, it risks getting into Mary Sue wish-fulfillment territory.

Faith and protection spells poll (Spoilers for Get it Done and Release) -- VampRiley, 19:14:44 03/12/03 Wed

Okay. This is a simple one. Do you think Faith can throw a punch inside the hotel?

Slayers are demons in the nonphysical sense.

Connor is the son of two vamps and couldn't hit Angelus.

Vamps are demons in the physical and nonphysical sense.

So, what's you vote?

a) Yes
b) No

VR

[> Spike's chip worked against Buffy... -- Doug, 19:21:01 03/12/03 Wed

...Before season six at least, so I presume that the Slayer's Demon essence is well hidden enough to fool the spell.

[> No, cuz Slayers are metaphyiscally demonic (spoilers) -- Scroll, 19:29:36 03/12/03 Wed

I don't know what Connor is exactly, but he was born as if he was human. They assumed he was human, the W&H doctors didn't see anything funny in his blood, and except for his superpowers, he seems absolutely normal.

In fact, I would say his powers and his human-ness make him the closest thing Joss has to a male Slayer. So if Connor gets spanked by the anti-demon spell, then so would Faith. She's human, imbued with demon spirit/heart/whatever to become the Slayer. I'd assume it would also set off the Sanctuary spell. IMHO, of course : )

[> I vote abba (maybe) -- MagicBone, 20:07:50 03/12/03 Wed

A piece of metanarraration in 'Release' (Spoilers for Angel 4.14) -- Finn Mac Cool, 20:00:01 03/12/03 Wed

Angelus to Faith: "It's all about the choices we make. And the consequences; gotta love those." (paraphrased)

Anyone else find this sentence interesting, since it mentions two of the most important episodes for Faith: "Choices" and "Consequences"?

On another note, Faith called Wesley "boss" in this episode, a title once used for the Mayor.

[> Also... -- xanthe, 20:07:10 03/12/03 Wed

I got chills when Wesley told Faith that she needed to 'get in the game' which is what she kept saying to Angel in 'Five by Five' when she wanted him to become invested in taking her down. I almost thought that Wesley did it deliberately because her way of getting Angel in the game was attacking Cordelia and torturing Wesley, which was what Wesley immediately brought up after making that reference.

[> Yeah, that was a little meta -- Doug, 20:07:58 03/12/03 Wed

Incidentally, did anyone notice any parrelles between what Agelus said to Faith and what Giles said to Willow in "Lessons"? The whole stuff about *You are who you always have been* or something to that effect. I just thought it was interesting that Angelus and Giles make the same speeches, except with different purposes.

[> Yup. I thought of those names immediately. -- Rob, 20:50:41 03/12/03 Wed

[> Re: A piece of metanarraration in 'Release' (Spoilers for Angel 4.14) -- LonesomeSundown, 07:10:13 03/13/03 Thu

Another interesting one was Evil!Cordy/Beastmaster in Angelus's head in the occult shop: He sees the "smoke and mirrors" image of his soul in the bottle and she says that she is holding the real thing in her "very corporeal hands". We know (or at least I assumed) that the main arcs on Buffy and Angel are connected, what with all the chracter crossovers and there has been some spec that the First is the the power behind the stone (save me, Master of PunFu!). This sounds like ME talking to the audience about Evil!Cordy's corporeality contrasted with the First's well known poofy nature. Guess we'll have to wait and see.

questions about vampires... -- nitewalker, 20:34:10 03/12/03 Wed

don't know if this has been brought up before, but doesnt becoming a vampire have to be a choice. free will right? God's gift to men for all those religious types. you would think it has to be like that. am i wrong?

and what's the deal with vampires fearing crosses? isnt a cross predominately a symbol of christian faith? would a buddhist who becomes a vampire fear a cross as well? and if its a matter of the psyche, why don't vampires master the whole cross-fearing thing (like oz did with the howling thing)?

any help, cause i'm lost....

[> Re: questions about vampires... -- Corwin of Amber, 20:44:54 03/12/03 Wed

Well, it depends on how you define "choice". Yes, the victim almost always "chooses" to become a vampire. But very consistantly, in both literature and in the buffyverse, it's frequently a poorly informed or made under duress. For instance, if a vampire approaches you at your weakest, lowest point of your life, and offers to make you immortal, to give you the power to do unto others? If a vampire comes to you at your deathbed, and offers to make you immortal? Or if a vampire drives you insane, and then gives you the option? Is it really a choice?

Crosses haven't really been explained in the Buffyverse. They started to approach it in Season 4, when a group of Adam's vampire flunkies took over a church, and one of them marveled at why he'd been afraid of it for so long. One could surmise that any properly blessed religious symbol would have a similiar effect on vampires, or that it's simply the belief of the holder that powers the effect.

[> [> I never got the impression most people chose to become vampires. . . -- Finn Mac Cool, 21:12:01 03/12/03 Wed

Though, this may depend on which vampire lore you read. Those most familiar with Anne Rice will probably think as you did. I'm a little more familiar with the novel "Dracula", in which it's said that the vampire holds his cut flesh to your mouth until it fills with blood and you're forced to swallow. That's how I always took it to be in the Buffyverse, too. Take a look at the Watcher in "Helpless", or the kid in "The Freshman", or Drusilla in "Dear Boy". None of them really seemed willing.

[> [> spoilers of release -- nitewalker, 21:12:43 03/12/03 Wed

thanks corwin, i guess what kind of perturbs me is faith. the writers seem to imply that angel sired her in "release". and with darla. and with gunn's sister.

how can the "reformed" darla and faith, plus gunn's sister, each who have full knowledge of the consequences of becoming a vampire, knowing full well that you dont "live" or become immortal still choose the fangs.

strenth is defined by will. common theme of the show.
so even if you were made insane or at a particular moment of weakness by temptation, these people still made a choice - its still free will. common theme to any religion as well. i just dont see how some of those people would give in. maybe its the simple answer - they never believed enough. but i would hate to see that angel didnt reach darla or faith, or that gunn's sister never believed in her brother.

[> [> [> Re: spoilers of release -- Corwin of Amber, 21:17:43 03/12/03 Wed

Yeah, but the vamp-sire drinking from the victim is only half the ceremony. The victim then has to drink from the sire...and we haven't seen that. Thats where the semi-choice comes in.

[> [> [> [> Re: spoilers of release -- nitewalker, 21:22:00 03/12/03 Wed

yeah i realize that...i just assumed because the previews for next week say something about faith's soul leaving/or dying or something like that. and shes supposed to guest on buffy, so i thought maybe as a vamp. i dunno, thats why i said the writers "implied"...

[> [> [> [> [> Re: spoilers of release -- Corwin of Amber, 21:33:35 03/12/03 Wed

Yeah, but the writers have NOTHING to do with the previews. That's done by marketing monkeys. :)

It's kind of like how you can never blame the writer of a news story for the headline, because the editors write those. Sometimes without reading the story.

I'm also a little spoiled.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: spoilers of release -- nitewalker, 21:38:30 03/12/03 Wed

my bad ;)

d*mn marketing monkeys. and while we're at it, lets throw a few cuss words out there at fox for throwing the book at firefly...

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> amen to that *(nt)* -- Corwin of Amber, 22:03:19 03/12/03 Wed

[> [> [> [> Re: spoilers of release -- Tess, 23:24:02 03/12/03 Wed

""Yeah, but the vamp-sire drinking from the victim is only half the ceremony. The victim then has to drink from the sire...and we haven't seen that. Thats where the semi-choice comes in.""

After Dru sired Darla, Angel said something to the effect of 'you think you can resist drinking, but you can't.' which seems to take free-will out of being turned.

[> Re: questions about vampires... -- M, 20:50:21 03/12/03 Wed

Actually I think that the Master did overcome the cross thing. In Nightmares he

The cross thing has been discussed before I'm sure and people wiser than me have commented and hopefully will again. But I don't think that when Joss decided to keep this particular part of Vampire mythos he intended to validate any particular religious view. The Buffyverse has always been more or less agnostic or secular. I think the cross thing was kept for two reasons, first it is a beautifully dramatic image that has been ingrained in us from a multitude of vampire movies, and secondly as a simple plot device. How else would Xander or Willow or anyone else hold off a preternaturally strong Vampire and save a companion.

[> [> Re: questions about vampires... -- nitewalker, 21:18:13 03/12/03 Wed

dunno if you guys ever read "i am legend" by matheson. good interpretation of vampires from a scientific standpoint. he does deal with the cross issue and the nature of vampires in general. but his reality isnt buffyverse.

but good answer M, the cross as a plot device, never thought of that one....

[> Re: About those crosses... -- Liv, 20:50:24 03/12/03 Wed

I'd always wondered the same thing, particularly in The Wish when the cross works on a presumably still-Jewish VampWillow.
Oh well, it seems ME have always selected which elements of classical vampire lore to include and which to discard. I tend to suspend disbelief when it comes to religious imagery in the Buffyverse.
"Note to self: religion freaky." ;)

Letting shows develop... -- Corwin of Amber, 20:36:23 03/12/03 Wed

I just have to say that tonight's Angel was a prime example of why the bean counters at the networks have to be willing to let shows (like Firefly!) have the time to develop. The character interactions in Release - Wes/Faith, Conner/Cordy, Fred/Gunn and Angelus/anyone....were quite simply a work of art, and art takes time to develop. We have a few years invested in these characters, and tonight it really paid off.

I guess i really should be boycotting Fox for cancelling Firefly, in addition to boycotting scifi for cancelling Farscape.

[> Angel 4.14 'Release' Spoilers above -- Finn Mac Cool, 20:40:01 03/12/03 Wed

[> Re: Letting shows develop... -- parakeet, 01:06:16 03/13/03 Thu

When networks don't think that they have anything to lose (like Fox in the heyday of the Simpsons or X-Files), they sometimes make the right decision for the wrong reasons. Once they have an ounce of success and/or respect, they make the wrong decision for the wrong reasons. A recent edition of Entertainment Weekly presented a forum of Hollywood writers/producers/whatever on the subject of the current prevalence of "reality" TV. One of the participants (a writer for the Bernie Mac show, I think) made a great comment about the three things that rule network executives. These three things are fear, greed, and stupidity; he said that stupidity always wins out (citing the lack of rerun value in "reality" tv and game shows). The fact that these people lack the vision and courage to stand by a short-term loser to find a long-term success is inevitable unless the stars are perfectly aligned (metaphorically speaking, of course). The music business should already have provided the perfect example of why cutting off potential cash cows (to be venal) because they aren't instant successes is a dumb idea for anybody concerned with the business.
As for us fans, well, sometimes the stars align. Buffy is a good example. Sometimes, of course, they dont; Firefly is a good example of this. Then there's Farscape; it got a chance to run for four seasons, and for this, I am grateful. It's a shame that stupidity set in before it had the chance to completely fulfill its promise, but at least it got four years.

AtS: Cordy... the godess? -- William Wolf, 20:55:21 03/12/03 Wed

I may be totaly wrong...
I have hard time finding time to watch Angel and Buffy.
I can't wait for all the DVD's!

But isn't Cordy an all powerful higher being?
Hasn't she said "I'm bored"?

So for excitement and a good revel with the sexual energy
wouldn't an all powerful being put oneself in a "mortal" peril with Angelus on the lose to kill?
(And play your friends as pawns because people are always more playful when you know them personally)

After all, the only reason she dated Xander was because they "were always caught in life or death situations, and that is always sexy and stuff."

As I said, I could be wrong.

AND what does Faith's saying mean? "5 by 5"

STL, MO ..thank God I can see Buffy every once and a while on the Home Shopping Network. UPN in April.
Why does STL have to be so different.

Slay ya' Later
~Wilhelm Wolf~

[> You could be onto something... -- Scroll, 21:48:07 03/12/03 Wed

...but it might be more complicated than Cordy just wanting to have some fun. She seems to have a real agenda, and what about the pregnancy?

As for 5 x 5, it's an aviation/piloting term (I believe) that means "Everything checks out" or "okay".

Keep posting!

[> [> Actuallym 5x5 ... -- LittleBit, 02:59:06 03/13/03 Thu

... is a radio term referring to the strength and clarity of the signal using a scale of 1-5, with 5 the best. So 5x5 means "strong and clear" or the best.

Cordelia speculation, possibly spoilers (definitely spoilers for Release 4.14) -- Jay, 21:17:09 03/12/03 Wed

I don't know any spoilers, but I got a thought in my noggin about Cordy and who the Boss could be. I've been having a hard time reconciling that Cordy has been EvilCordy since she's been back, 100 percent of the time, so I've been letting my mind wander a wee bit, grasping at anything that might make sense. I think I finally may have it.

In this last episode "Release", EvilCordy tells Angelus that he is someplace warm and soft. A-HA! It's Cordy's baby doing the antichrist bit! It's a horror classic. I'm not sure how this explains how Cor came back from a higher plane, why she lost her memory, or why she shagged the rotten snot out of Conner, but I think I maybe onto something. Or I could be dangerously low on blood. Bartender, get me a warm one.

[> You and Me. On the same wavelength exactly! -- Rob, 21:27:58 03/12/03 Wed

[> Re: Cordelia speculation, possibly spoilers (definitely spoilers for Release 4.14) -- Quentin Collins, 00:31:09 03/13/03 Thu

It makes a lot of sense to me. One reason that she may have shagged Connor is that the baby may not be his. Having sex with him provides a reasonable explanation for where the baby came from and gives her a "protector" within Angel Investigations.

[> [> Cordelia's little condition -- Masq, 04:09:59 03/13/03 Thu

My pet theory is that the pregnancy is an illusion. Evil!Cordelia needs to control Connor, keep him close to her, keep him from getting all heroic or patricidal. Keep him from becoming the slayer's eager little puppy. Evil!C is using this to emotionally control him into staying at her side.

Even if the pregnancy is real (in which case ME would have to deal with the complex consequences of what to do about the baby as far as the story line goes), it's certainly a device for controlling Connor.

Now she probably could have controlled him with sex rather than a baby, but ME did have Charisma's pregancy to write in. Plus, I think it's easier to control Connor's hot-headed impulsiveness by telling him he has to be the protector, close by, rather than by making him a lover, who might get it in his head to wander off and pro-actively kill his own father.

[> [> [> I take that back (spoilers for Release above and here) -- Masq, 07:20:49 03/13/03 Thu

Well, the part about it being a fake pregnancy, anyway. I just got done watching the episode again and taking notes for my ep analysis (sometimes, insomnia is very useful).

The BeastMaster's voice not only talks about being in a "warm and soft" place, but Evil!Cordelia herself makes that ominous statement to Connor that soon "they're all going to know about the life that's growing inside of me." Likely something real is growing in there. But I still suspect it isn't Connor's child. He is being manipulated with this pregnancy, because he had sex with her.

I mean, there has to be a reason they had that Cordelia-Beast kiss. It wasn't just a Fury throw-away. Perhaps Evil!Cordelia slept with the Beast as well, off-camera, and it's the Beast's spawn inside of her. Cordelia has a demon-hybrid physiology now, and perhaps could mate with the Beast.

"Why is everybody always trying to impregnate me with their demon spawn???" --Cordelia

[> [> [> [> Re: I take that back (spoilers for Release above and here) -- Rob, 08:30:38 03/13/03 Thu

I honestly how you're doing episode analyses for AtS this year! Just thinking back on it, you can't even say for certainty, for example, why Cordy had sex with Connor back in Apocalypse Nowish. Was the idea implanted in her head? Was that even Cordy back there? Has the baby or whatever been controlling her this whole time or did she only show evil signs once it was inside her? And if she did, how'd it get there? And if she was evil before, how? And aarrggh!!!!

At the end of the season, are you going to go back to every analysis, and see if you have to fix anything?!?

Rob

[> [> [> [> [> Oh, yeah -- Masq, 08:57:21 03/13/03 Thu

At the end of the season, are you going to go back to every analysis, and see if you have to fix anything?!?

And it will be a reverent joy, if I finally have some real answers. ; )

[> [> [> [> [> Re: I take that back (spoilers for Release above and here) -- maddog, 09:01:02 03/13/03 Thu

The thing with an analysis is that it's a matter of opinion, which can't be right or wrong. I'd say Masq could go back and see how right or wrong the analysis was. Personally, now that I know what I do about Cordy's behavior in the last 4 episodes I'd say she's been the puppetmaster since she got back and "forgot everything". Everything just sort of falls into place and no one would ever suspect poor Cordy. :)

[> [> [> [> [> [> Not just a matter of opinion -- Masq, 09:26:36 03/13/03 Thu

These aren't reviews. They're attempts to explain things. When the show gives us clearly stated facts about the characters and situations, I report them as the show gives them. When they don't give us facts, I try to present a wide variety of opinions on the subject. My main goal is always objectivity, because this is supposed to be information, to help the viewer understand what's going on on-screen. ME is surprisingly consistent with the way they handle standard things (rules about vampires, character's personality traits, etc).

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Not just a matter of opinion -- maddog, 10:00:47 03/13/03 Thu

But you just said it right there...attempt...that leaves room for your own interpretation....and unfortunately room to be wrong. Hey, I'm sticking up for you here. I think that you do the best you can with what ME gives you.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Strange idea/theory about Cordys return. -- Utopia, 14:35:51 03/13/03 Thu

Just a thought: Cordelia was a "Higher Being" right? Benevolent, radiant, sorta like an Angel. So maybe she pissed of her boss when she tried to get out. She wanted her friends and the guy she loved, wanted to live...Wanted the pleasures of the flesh.

Sooooo, she was cast out. Kinda like that other ex-Angel, Lucifer.

Just thought it was an interesting parallel. I'm probably off by a mile.

[> [> [> [> Re: I take that back (spoilers for Release above and here) -- maddog, 08:37:04 03/13/03 Thu

If it isn't his they did a good job of throwing us off by showing us he has demon in him. Cause a demon child from two demon parents makes an awful lot of sense. But it could still be a curveball. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

[> [> [> [> [> Any ball could be a curveball in this game (spoilers to Release) -- WickedBuffy ::counting up the suspects in the dugout::, 18:38:26 03/13/03 Thu

Connor being thrown by the protection spell was pretty telling - but red herring or real?

Lorne was the one who did the Sanctuary spell. He was the one who "tested" it. This same guy who sat out the last two spells* (before the Cordy resouling spell) and made the HUGE error verifying Angel was resouled.

I know he's a cutie and all, but everyone is still suspect, including him. Making everyone, including Connor, believe he is part demon could be part of a plan. It certainly makes it easier for EvilCordy, aligning them, making them "the same" as she told him.

*Spin the Bottle main spell and the spell to desoul Angel

[> Re: Cordelia speculation, possibly spoilers (definitely spoilers for Release 4.14) -- maddog, 08:22:08 03/13/03 Thu

There was something else she said at the time that made me believe that it was the baby talking through her. I just can't remember what it was now. But I'm on board. And it's the perfect thing. Wasn't Connor supposed to be the one to destory the world in the prophecies? Might as well be his child.

[> Re: Cordelia speculation, possibly spoilers.... OR -- Briar Rose, 17:25:21 03/13/03 Thu

Cordelia is definitely evil, she is carrying Connor's child after a long time of planning this little prophecy driven sexual piccadilo and it's outcome and since we now know with no spec needed that Connor is at least part deamon from Loren's "No deamon violence" spell....

The prophecy given light by Sajan and confirmed by EvilMcBurger was actually a red herring for Angel, Wesley, Holtz and the viewer at THAT time and Angel wasn't the "Father" that would "kill the Son."

Connor may well be the figure foretold of in the prophecy that "The Father will kill the Son."

[> [> Wow! I like that one, Briar Rose. -- WickedBuffy (slight vague spoilers to Salvage), 18:20:42 03/13/03 Thu

That makes great sense to me! More than what I was thinking that Connor is the demon controlling Cordy (what a way to score, too) - which also ties into why he wants to kill Angelus so bad. I know there are other reasons for that posted, but it's another angle to look at! But it's might be coming to a showdown between Angel/Angelus and Connor anyway to make that prophecy come true. Just not sure who wears the white hat and who wears the black one.

But the part about the baby being the evil talking through Cordy sounds so much like the Charmed plot where Phoebes demon fetus was controlling Phoebe, making her do evil things from within the womb. (You didn't say that, a prior post did.) I still think Cordy is some kind of puppet in all this, or at the very least the intercom the REAL Boss is shouting through.

[> [> [> I agree with your other option, WickedBuff -- Briar Rose, 23:44:43 03/13/03 Thu

You're absolutely right! Cordelia could be Evil by control and have no way to fight it which is very Charmed-ish, but one way or the other - Cordy has gone all deamony. There is no mistaking that at this point. Since I was holding out for her to be the FE's first active doppleganger in LA and possibly two Cordelias were running around, so I was shocked to see that there is ONE Cordy and she's definitely Evil.

And there is still the fact that as long as Angel and Connor are both alive, that "Father will kill the Son" could still relate to Angel/Connor. So you're right on that being the most obvious outcome.

Now comes the big question I'm wondering about.... Did we ever get the actual spelling on that "son" part in the prophecy? Because "The Father will kill the SUN" would sound just like "The Father will kill the Son."~W~

I'll See You on the Dark Side of the Moon (spoilers for 'Release'; title for 7.15) -- cjl, 22:18:38 03/12/03 Wed

Review in a minute. But before I say anything else:

Regarding the Pink Floyd vs. Prince debate...

"Dark Side of the Moon" over "1999" any day. However, the 3-CD Prince Greatest Hits/B-Sides (on Warner Brothers) is the sh*t, and ranks with any Pink Floyd LP, including DSotM or The Wall. (Although maybe not "Wish You Were Here"...) Prince does not negate Roger Waters and Roger Waters does not negate Prince. (Masq, could I have a banner quote on that?)

Back from my theater conference, and just in time for the new episode of FAITH. Uh, I mean ANGEL.

No, I was right the first time: I mean FAITH.

Faith was the main character this episode. Her conflicts, or rather her moment of confrontation with her past conflicts, was the through line, the engine that drove what would have otherwise been a transitional episode, setting up next week's full-blown Minear-ama. Faith had to go to the wall against Angelus and figure out whether her quest for redemption had truly changed her or not. When it came down to it, would she go for the kill and take out Angelus, condemning her friend and savior to limbo for eternity? Would she slide down the same slippery slope that nearly led to her destruction the first time?

In "Sanctuary," Faith took a huge step toward redeeming her soul by turning herself in to the cops, going to prison and serving the time for her crime. She never attempted to break out, even though the U.S. penal system has no way to hold a Slayer. It occurred to me after tonight's episode that Faith felt safe in prison (in all senses of the word). She could handle just about any of the crap her fellow prisoners could dump on her, as evidenced by the easy parry of the Harbinger-style attack in "Salvage." She had three squares a day, a nice quiet jail cell for private brooding, and best of all, no interactions with the people she abused and tortured. It was incarceration as escape.

When Wes picked up that telephone, Faith's real test of redemption had begun. Faith's dive through the plexiglass was her dive through the Looking Glass, and she found herself in a dark mirror version of the Los Angeles she'd left three years earlier. (Think of the last few eps as the inverse of the Pylea arc.) Eternal Darkness blanketed the city, Angelus was running wild through the streets, and Wes--omigod, who was this brooding, borderline sinister presence calling himself Wesley Wyndam-Price?

From the first moment they reconnected, Wes was testing her, pushing her, ostensibly to find out if she still had the stuff to be a Slayer. But more than that, some small part of the old Wesley--the deeply wounded man underneath the new Wes--wanted to know if Faith was the same homicidal loon who'd nearly tortured him to death. Wes frightened me a little bit this week, for the first time since "Billy." In each act of this episode, he stepped further and further away from his calm, unobtrusive style of "watcher-ing," taking extreme, violent, ruthless measures--but WATCHING nonetheless, waiting for Faith to step over the line and return to her old ways.

What would he have done if she had stepped over the line? Let's say she kills Angelus, enjoys it, and then turns to Wes, who is just climbing out of the rubble. Does he kill her, out of revenge and as the instrument of Watchers Council justice? I honestly don't know. (Alexis Denisof was really that good.)

Fortunately, we'll never have to find out the answer. She met up with her ultimate challenge, battling her savior, who had succumbed to his own dark side. Angelus taunted her relentlessly, reversing the roles in the battle at the end of "Five by Five," practically inviting Faith to kill him to prove that she's just like him. But Faith resisted the temptation, and proved her redemption was the real thing.

Let's see if Joss and Co. punish her for that epiphany...

Brief bites:

-- Sigh, another episode of Angelus Lite ("more talk, less slaughter"). A lot of threatening and snarkiness, a spot of torture here and there, but no draining (the cliffhanger doesn't count) or dismemberment. The old Angelus would have broken the book shop owner's legs so he couldn't get away. This is getting pathetic. (All right, I'll let it go. But only because I love you people...)

-- I have to say, Evil!Cordy is doing a superb job using her inside knowledge to manipulate the two men in her life, Connor and Angelus. She's got the boy dazzled by the prospect of fatherhood and the chance to be the Head of the Family, and she's got Angelus scared soul-less by the prospect of getting buried inside Angel again. I'd say she was practically inside their heads, but I don't do jokes that bad. Now that I come to think of it, though, how DID E!C pull off that private broadcast? Through an old filling in Angelus' mouth?)

-- Nice ambiguity in the title: "Release" was obviously centered around Angel, Wes and Faith, with Angel and Wes releasing the demon inside themselves ("letting it loose") and Faith releasing her own darkness, in the sense of "letting it go." On a more mundane but equally compelling level, Gunn finally let go of his own hopes for romantic reconciliation with Fred in a refreshingly mature and understated fashion. Go Charles! Now THAT'S the guy I remember from S1 and S2!

-- Andy Hallett gets into the credits and Lorne is promptly tranquilized midway through Act Two? This is ridiculous. When are they going to give this guy more to do? They'd better be holding him in reserve for something big...)

Next week: "Orpheus," written and directed by Tim Minear.

Hold all calls.

[> Re: I'll See You on the Dark Side of the Moon (spoilers for 'Release'; title for 7.15) -- Rob, 22:35:15 03/12/03 Wed

Great review! I'd love to add, but my brain is totally not working. Just finished watching the tape of the episode, since I had a night class. And oh my God...the last moment! Not surprised Angelus seems to be the first vamp to think of siring a Slayer!

-- Sigh, another episode of Angelus Lite ("more talk, less slaughter"). A lot of threatening and snarkiness, a spot of torture here and there, but no draining (the cliffhanger doesn't count) or dismemberment. The old Angelus would have broken the book shop owner's legs so he couldn't get away. This is getting pathetic. (All right, I'll let it go. But only because I love you people...)

I hear your pain, and I understand. I'd also love to see Angelus do some killing. I'm really thinking what you posited last week, that they don't want to show the hero actually killing someone. I remember even on BtVS, Joss said he walked a fine line when he had Angel actually go bad and on purpose only had him kill in vamp face, so people wouldn't be freaked when he later got his soul back and started making out with Buffy again. Now that he's the star of this show, they're probably being even more careful about not making him too irredeemable. I console myself with the fact that he has to be doing this stuff off-screen, even if we don't see it, and the deliciously sadistic performance DB is giving. I'm really enjoying Angelus' brains and ballsiness, and the way he gets under everybody's skin. And I'm dealing with the no-killing.

- I have to say, Evil!Cordy is doing a superb job using her inside knowledge to manipulate the two men in her life, Connor and Angelus. She's got the boy dazzled by the prospect of fatherhood and the chance to be the Head of the Family, and she's got Angelus scared soul-less by the prospect of getting buried inside Angel again. I'd say she was practically inside their heads, but I don't do jokes that bad. Now that I come to think of it, though, how DID E!C pull off that private broadcast? Through an old filling in Angelus' mouth?)

Yes, E!C is BRILLIANT! For the first moment we heard the big voice, I actually thought "a little lame," which is so unlike me! But then when we saw that it was Cordy transmitting I instantly said, out loud (my mom can testify to that!) , "That is so cool!" Don't know how she's doing the transmitting, but kewl!

-- Andy Hallett gets into the credits and Lorne is promptly tranquilized midway through Act Two? This is ridiculous. When are they going to give this guy more to do? They'd better be holding him in reserve for something big...)

I'm holding out hope for an all-Lorne musical extravaganza episode some day.

Next week: "Orpheus," written and directed by Tim Minear

And dammit! I'm gonna be on vacation next week and won't get to see it until the Saturday after it airs! How will I survive?!? I almost lost bladder control in excitement while watching the promo.

Um, was that too much information lol?

Also have to add how profoundly disturbing and powerful Faith's shower scene was. I was literally wincing at her wounds and blood, and adored when she let out her frustration on the shower wall. I loved the flash of the old Faith there. The character's being written brilliantly, and ED is playing her brilliantly, mixing her newfound peace with her inner struggle against her dark side. Great stuff.

Rob

[> [> I used to be concerned (spoiler Release) -- lunasea, 09:10:29 03/13/03 Thu

I'm really thinking what you posited last week, that they don't want to show the hero actually killing someone.

He just said he was going to sire Faith. Teeth went into tender flesh. If anything prevents the completion, it isn't Angelus. I could handle him killing Connor or Cordy more than even the idea that he would think of siring Faith. The sound, the sight, some stylish killing wouldn't compare to that. It would have just watered it down.

I don't think they are so worried about what they show as they are TRYING to show Angelus-lite. I was hoping that Angelus would be seriously different. He is formed from Angel's shadow. Angel has dealt with a lot of his issues. Angelus shouldn't be so grand.

I also think they don't want to give Angel too much to feel guilty over when he gets resouled. That would be a distraction from something else they have in mind.

Have to admit because it has been Angelus-lite, that final scene made you scream (well, at least it made me scream).

[> Hold all calls. Right there with you, cjl (spoilers) -- Scroll, 22:46:06 03/12/03 Wed

You know, I really admired Wes in last week's "Salvage". I thought he was doing a good job as Watcher, allowing Faith to take the lead, backing her up. But I think the Beast's victory over Faith demolished not only her self-confidence, but Wesley's confidence in Faith. Notice how gentle he is with her in his apartment? That's the most open and human he's been since kidnapping Connor, IMO. It's not until Faith goes nuts in the shower that he starts questioning if she can restrain the "animal" within. He still fears her, I think, he remembers how psycho she was only a few years ago. And yet Wesley also believes that Faith needs that "animal" to survive. To defeat Angelus. He keeps pushing Faith for two reasons: 1) to see if she is still that insane killer; 2) to see if she can be that killer when she faces Angelus.

Wes frightened me a little bit this week, for the first time since "Billy." In each act of this episode, he stepped further and further away from his calm, unobtrusive style of "watcher-ing," taking extreme, violent, ruthless measures--but WATCHING nonetheless, waiting for Faith to step over the line and return to her old ways.

Definitely scared me. Yeah, and he reminded me of "Billy" too, which seemed a deliberate echo by the writers. Actually, I'm starting to wonder if Wes has lost his mind. No, I'm being serious. The guy wasn't exactly a picture of good mental-health in "Loyalty", it got worse from there, he nearly gets murdered twice in the space of one day, and starts a twisted relationship with Lilah. I thought he'd pulled himself together in Season 4, but then Lilah gets killed and he starts talking to hallucinations. Now he's acting like a crazy sadist guy, and I'm wondering if he still has all his marbles.

Seeing his former torturer can't exactly be giving him pleasant dreams -- though I don't think any of them have slept, either. I think the real transition of Wesley's attitude from caring for Faith and being scared for her, to cutting off his emotions again, is when Angelus has him hostage and Faith won't attack. I think Wes was more than ready to die in that moment. He really didn't care, he just wanted Angelus put down. But not killed -- I don't think Wes wants Angelus dead at all, just tranqed so they can lock him up again.

cjl, I really like what you say about Faith feeling safe in prison. Isn't there a psychological term for that? Lots of ex-convicts will commit another crime just so they can go back to jail?

Faith is such a fascinating character. She reminds me a bit like Willow in being afraid of her own darkness, but also like Buffy in that she doesn't believe being evil or an "animal" is the way to stop evil. As Buffy said to Giles, "We don't stop evil by doing evil." That last scene when Faith is brutally punching Angelus in the face again and again, I was very much reminded of "Who Are You?" (and by extension, "Dead Things"). But this time, Faith backed off. She refused to put her self-loathing and violence on another person. Hopefully it will turn out to be the right decision!

About the title. In "Salvage", Wes says to Faith after she's dusted the two vampires: "Thought you could use a little release." Interesting. Faith did seem to need her "release", but should she release all her dark/animalistic power just to win against Angelus?

Evil!Cordy is very good at being evil. Poor Connor, scrunching up his forehead to get "wrinklies" like his dad! So cute, though :) Andy Hallett in credits!

Next week: "Orpheus," written and directed by Tim Minear.

Hold all calls.

Is it next week yet?

[> [> Wanted to add about Faith -- Scroll, 22:55:57 03/12/03 Wed

I really felt for her in that shower scene. They don't exploit Naked!Faith, but make it something very quiet, powerful, and sad. She really was a mess but was trying to keep it together, then just lost it. But loved Wes' "security deposit" line : )

Wanted to add that Faith's dilemma in the courtyard really struck me as well. She seemed so torn, wanting to fight because she's a Slayer and that's what they do, and not wanting to fight because violence always brings out her dark side. Wanting to stop Angelus, but not wanting to risk Wesley. Not to mention the fact that losing Watchers/mentors seems to be Faith's biggest trauma. She's already lost two Watchers (one was evil, but still) and she lost the Mayor. Now she's lost Angel, her mentor, and she almost lost Wesley.

I think she was feeling pretty impotent after the courtyard scene, and that's when Wes starts taking over. Or Wes takes over, and Faith is too shaken to stop him. Not sure which came first, really. Though Faith calls Wesley "Boss" back in the apartment. She gives him the power? Dunno...

One thing I love about Angel that we just don't really see often in Buffy are shifts in power. The person who starts off as alpha wolf doesn't stay there. The beta can take over, the leader isn't always the one in front of the pack, the leader is sometimes hidden upstairs having morning sickness, etc.

[> [> [> Re: Wanted to add about Faith -- Dannyblue, 23:13:40 03/12/03 Wed

I also thought they wanted us to draw comparisons between Angel/Angelus and Faith.

For Angelus, there's nothing like the freedom to be "who he is". Evil. Remorseless. Sadistic. When that part of him is held in check by the soul, it's frustrating and painful.

He tries to tell Faith she's the same way. That she might be behaving now, but she knows that she can't be "happy" playing that part. That happiness and freedom mean letting lose. Letting the "killer" inside her free.

Tonight, we saw some flashes of the old Faith. The one who wants to be out of control...and, thus, not responsible for her own actions. In the shower scene, it almost seemed like she was putting on the same armour she wore in Sunnydale. That she was hardening herself to her emotions.

But Faith ultimately rejects Angelus's reasoning. She believes she's really *not* like that anymore. That she isn't playing a part, keeping her true nature under control. That she has changed. The Faith we see now *is* her true nature.

[> [> [> [> Good points (spoilers) -- Scroll, 09:33:32 03/13/03 Thu

I also thought they wanted us to draw comparisons between Angel/Angelus and Faith.

For Angelus, there's nothing like the freedom to be "who he is". Evil. Remorseless. Sadistic. When that part of him is held in check by the soul, it's frustrating and painful.

He tries to tell Faith she's the same way. That she might be behaving now, but she knows that she can't be "happy" playing that part. That happiness and freedom mean letting lose. Letting the "killer" inside her free.

Very good insight, I hadn't thought of the Angel/Angelus parallel to Faith. Angelus must really see soemthing of a kindred spirit in Faith, which is partly why I think he's willing to turn her. Vampires like Angelus don't turn people indiscriminately; they have to be something special, like Drusilla.

I'm glad Faith stood up to Angelus and declared that she has changed. I think she has changed, but I also think there is still a darkness within her she can't pretend isn't there. But I do believe Faith has a choice whether to let that darkness control her, and I'm pleased to say she is refusing to let it. Of course, now she might be Angelus' next meal, possibly his next child. Hopefully not!

[> [> Dark Wesley -- Masq, 04:29:06 03/13/03 Thu

Definitely scared me. Yeah, and he reminded me of "Billy" too, which seemed a deliberate echo by the writers. Actually, I'm starting to wonder if Wes has lost his mind. No, I'm being serious. The guy wasn't exactly a picture of good mental-health in "Loyalty", it got worse from there, he nearly gets murdered twice in the space of one day, and starts a twisted relationship with Lilah. I thought he'd pulled himself together in Season 4, but then Lilah gets killed and he starts talking to hallucinations. Now he's acting like a crazy sadist guy, and I'm wondering if he still has all his marbles.

I think we all got a little complacent after Wesley "came back into the fold" after Apocalypse, Nowish. He seemed more or less like his old self, just with that Scruffy!Wesley edge to him that he developed over the summer with Lilah.

But my mind goes back to Shadowkat's post last week on Wesley, where she pointed out that Wesley's plan to bring back Angelus to find out more about the Beast was really an arrogant thing to do. Think about it. Angelus knows more about the Beast than Angel, so let's take out Angel's soul--let's turn our champion into a sadistic monster temporarily--to get the answers.

Of course, they were pretty desperate, but as we all commented at the time "Hell of a plan! What are they thinking!" And THEN we saw Wesley actually relish going up against Angelus in "Soulless". He wanted to test his mettle against him. He thought he could bring back the scourge of Europe, get him to talk, and then turn him back into Angel. And it's not like he thought there would be no emotional consequences to this act, consequences on the AI gang, and on Angel himself, he just didn't care. He got it in his head that this was the way they had to do it, and he pushed until the gang and Angel went along with it.

Playing right into the hands of Evil!Cordelia, of course. I think she counted on Wesley's questionable decision-making processes when she started pulling strings.

Now that cost-benefit ruthlessness we saw glimpses of in "Consequences" (when he was willing to keep the box of Gavrok and sacrifice Willow) and in "There's No Place like Plrtz Glrb" (where he sent those rebels to their death to create a diversion) is emerging in Wesley full-bore.

I hope ME is able to explore this side of Wesley more. If the show gets cancelled, they might be tempted to bring Wesley back around to the kinder, gentler version before ep 22. But if they get a fifth season, we could see an exploration of where this side of Wesley comes from. I'm thinking it goes beyond the Watcher's Council training. I'm thinking it goes back to his own father.

[> [> [> Re: Temptation -- Brian, 05:15:35 03/13/03 Thu

I saw the scene of Wesley goading Faith to bring out her dark side as a parallel to Buffy goading Spike to be more dangerous. They need to use that inner darkness to fight the greater evil, win, and not lose themselves in their own darkness. Faith appears to have won. Word is still out on Spike

[> [> [> [> Timeline questions (spoilers for next week's Angel promo, including casting spoilers) -- LonesomeSundown, 06:30:04 03/13/03 Thu

Sorry for minijacking the thread, but didn't want to start a new one.

Rehashing an old topic about the confusing timelines this season between Angel and Buffy. Didn't give it much of a thought so far, but with LWKCS - less WKCS :-) - making an appearance next week my head hurts trying to fit the pieces together.

Are the timelines in Buffy and Angel in sync (more or less)at the end of Storyteller and Release? What explanation will Willow have for showing up next week? Two possibilities:
1) Some off screen deliberation in Buffy makes the Scoobies decide to send Willow to LA. Might missing Giles have played a role in this?
2) Something happens in the new Buffy episodes that leads to Willow in LA. In this case is it likely that Orpheus will have spoilers for unaired Buffy episodes? Or will ME vague it up enough to avoid specific spoilers?

And am I the last person in the world to find out that Willow's popping up in Angel? LWKCS was more like unknown WKCS for me!

[> [> [> [> [> Angelus' phone call -- Masq, 07:14:11 03/13/03 Thu

Last week, Angelus calls Buffy's house and talks to Dawn. He asks if Buffy is there. When Dawn says she is, he hangs up.

Pretty suspicious. Now imagine that Willow has similar powers to other members of the Westbury wiccan coven, who were able to sense when she herself turned evil all the way across the Atlantic in Sunnydale. Maybe after the phone call, Willow realizes she's been sensing something dark in L.A. (besides the lack of sun, that is). She goes to L.A. to find out what it is, suspecting it might be Angelus because of that weird phone call.

Probably when Faith shows up in Sunnydale, we'll get some back story on what sent Willow there. If we don't get it in next week's Angel.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Next week AtS casting spoiler above -- Masq, 07:24:36 03/13/03 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: the phone call and timeline coordination (warning: minor but significant spoilers inside!) -- cjl, 07:29:49 03/13/03 Thu

The networks messed up.

In the perfect Buffyverse inside of Joss' head, "Lies My Parents Told Me" (BtVS 7.17) was supposed to be broadcast on 3/18/03, one day before "Orpheus" (Angel 4.15). According to current spoilers for LMPTM, the gang in Sunnydale receives a phone call from A.I., and Willow immediately heads off to Los Angeles, arriving one day later at the Hyperion.

Didn't work out that way.

UPN bumped BtVS 7.17 to March 25th, making the well-timed Willow cross-over....well, a little less well-timed. At this point, I don't know if they'll keep the phone call to Sunnydale, or edit it out and retcon the explanation when Faith arrives in 7.18, to be broadcast some time in 2005....

[> [> [> [> [> [> Something Dark? -- Doug, 07:32:08 03/13/03 Thu

The Sun has gone out, fire has rained from the sky, a stony fellow who looks like Satan is walking the streets, a plague of Vampires have descended, some unknown force is controlling this whole thing; and Willow is supposed to sense the loss of one soul? Angelus being back isnot an evil on the level of everything else that's occuring, all he's capable of doing is yapping.

Now, in the finales of both Season 2 and Season 6 that kind of remote sensing is possible, but both of them occur before an attempted Apocalypse. Kendra's Watcher in Becoming Part 1, and the coven in season 6. So while they can sense Apocalypses I don't think even Angelus talks enough to be heard in Sunnydale.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Not just any soul -- lunasea, 09:36:51 03/13/03 Thu

Willow is supposed to sense the loss of one soul

Per Lilah, taking the soul of a champion sends out some pretty big ripples. It is all connected. Willow is connected to Angel's soul because she was the one that resouled him last time. She probably can feel this.

Probably will be something more mundane though.

Now, is Willow going to be the one to find it though? Can she do a locator spell for it?

[> [> [> The Council's Placement Office -- Darby, 06:04:36 03/13/03 Thu

The scenes between Wesley and Faith in Release seem to demonstrate a compatability that we had never seen before, but is the implication that it had potentially been there all along?

Perhaps the Watchers' Council is more skilled at matching Watchers and Slayers than we had thought. Rather than just tossing up whichever Watcher is "next in the rotation," there may be a psychological and/or mystical pairing.

Buffy, Chosen by surprise, gets a grim but effective first Watcher who can convince her of her calling. Then she gets Giles, a surrogate father to replace Buffy's departed dad (that would make Quentin's criticisms ironic) with a rebellious past and an understanding of the nonconformist path, someone who through the heat of the war becomes a partner to his Slayer. But he is not suited to Faith, who doesn't trust the type of approach he uses, who sees manipulation and ulterior motives.

Kendra, the rasta roboticon, receives a Watcher who can best program her, a dominating male figure who isolates her.

Faith's first watcher, a woman, is able to give Faith a new sense of purpose and an emotional connection - she is traumatized to lose her. Faith comes to Sunnydale, unsure of her Calling and hesitant to put her heart back into the fray, and the Council sends her Wesley. Wesley, damaged by his family and assured of his own incompetence, gives Faith someone to play off against that she won't take too seriously or get too close to, but someone who can tell her how her role is supposed to work. Also, the Council knows that Wes has inside him the capacity to grow into his own role, to harden and gain confidence, to parallel Faith's development and, as they gain confidence in each other, also become a partner. That may be the secret to the Watcher-Slayer relationship - to be successful, it must move from an imbalance (usually mentor-student, although the balance tilted the other way with Faith and a bit with Buffy) to a true partnership - no wonder Watchers have been too traumatized to recount their Slayers' final battles.

Of course, the initial Wes- Faith dynamic was undermined by the presence of Buffy and Giles - Buffy, the girl with Faith's job who was much better at it, and Giles, the kind father figure too much like men who had hurt her in the past. This probably explains why the Council felt that, if they couldn't deprogram / reprogram Faith, it was best to kill her and get a new Slayer, one that they would keep away from Sunnydale.

So the Council saw in their Watchers both the people they were and the people that the Great War would make of them, and matched them with the girls they were most compatible with. Like a demonic dating service, something Cordy suggested was a good idea once.

[> [> [> Wesley's death wish -- Scroll, 09:27:15 03/13/03 Thu

And THEN we saw Wesley actually relish going up against Angelus in "Soulless". He wanted to test his mettle against him. He thought he could bring back the scourge of Europe, get him to talk, and then turn him back into Angel. And it's not like he thought there would be no emotional consequences to this act, consequences on the AI gang, and on Angel himself, he just didn't care. He got it in his head that this was the way they had to do it, and he pushed until the gang and Angel went along with it. (emphasis mine)

I think you're right, Masq. He just doesn't care about anything anymore. I mean, he still wants to save the world but that seems more like a distant goal, something he's doing because that's what he's supposed to be doing, rather than an act of compassion (as Angel describes in "Epiphany"). So I was quite pleased by Wesley's gentleness with Faith at the apartment, then very astonished by the abrupt turn-around later in the ep.

After "Loyalty" aired, I think a lot of us were saying Wesley had a death wish (or at least, I remember saying). I'm wondering if he still has that death wish, because from what I've seen, it's like he knows he is damned already so what does it matter if he crosses the line? (ooh, now I'm think Angel/Darla parallels!) But Angel isn't damned yet, he believes Angel can be redeemed and he's willing to stick a knife in a strung-out junkie to make sure Angel gets saved.

I really feel the courtyard scene is key. That moment when Angelus has Wesley, and Faith won't act, and Wesley tells her to do it -- I think this was pivotal to the Angelus/Wes/Faith dynamics. The power shifted from Faith to Wes and Angelus. And again, Wes was quite ready to die if it meant taking down Angelus. He really doesn't seem to care if he lives or dies.

I wonder if Wes believes Faith can be saved, or if he believes she's already been saved. It could be why he takes over -- so he can do the things she shouldn't have to. Or maybe he thinks he can do a better job. Arrogant, like you said, believing he can get it done.

Really want a Season 5. I'm loving the Angel/Wes parallels, it's the best, most subtly-drawn parallel in the Buffyverse, IMHO. Want more Angel! Is it next week yet?

[> [> [> [> Oh, I think he cares about the ENDS -- Masq, 09:50:29 03/13/03 Thu

He really does want to save the world, get Angel back, etc.

What is significant to note is that he no longer cares about the MEANS.

This is the mark of the path he's taken: the (noble) ends justify any (ruthless) means. This is something Buffy goes on record time and time again against doing. She will not take a single human life, even to save the world (not even Ben's in The Gift). "You can't fight evil with evil" she said recently.

Wesley is the antithesis of this. He always has been, but now it's coming out fully.

[> [> [> [> [> Don't count him evil yet (spoiler=Release) -- lunasea, 10:29:07 03/13/03 Thu

I love coming to the boards and seeing how people see the show. Why do I get this feeling that the Wes we saw in "Salvage" is more the Wes than this Ripper-like guy?

Faith ended up on the end of Angelus' pointy teeth. There had better be a reason or Wesley was right. Faith did need to go dark and the ends to justify the means. If there is a reason, what we saw of Wesley was a masterful misdirect that we all assume was in character.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Oh, I don't think it was evil -- Masq, 10:34:42 03/13/03 Thu

I think Wesley honestly believes Faith needs to fight dirty or end up exactly the way she did--at the point-end of Angelus' fangs. She wasnt' willing to risk Angel's death, and so chomp. At least that's the way Wesley sees it. When I say he still believes in the noble Ends--world save-age, Angel re-ensouled--I still count him among the good guys.

His belief in any means--ruthless or not--to achieve these ends is what makes him morally ambiguous. Walking the line. Not evil, but not the kind of hero we are accustomed to in the Joss-verse, the kind that draws a line about what they'll do to fight the Good fight.

So are you saying he was using reverse psychology--telling her to "fight dirty" and "get dark" so that she would NOT cross the line she used to cross in the past?? Is that the "misdirect" you are refering to?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Oh, I don't think it was evil -- lunasea, 10:45:04 03/13/03 Thu

So are you saying he was using reverse psychology--telling her to "fight dirty" and "get dark" so that she would NOT cross the line she used to cross in the past?? Is that the "misdirect" you are refering to?

Possibly or just testing her. Either way, after that scene at the demon bar/drug den, we are missing something, something incredibly important. I don't remember seeing Wes give her the knife. What did they talk about then? Did he give her anything else? What is going on? I NEED to know now and I promised my husband that I wouldn't go looking for spoilers. Stupid promise.

I think Wesley does believe that Faith needs to fight "Dirty" but not how we think. We aren't talking all out animals kicking each others ass (as pleasant as that would be to watch). It isn't "dirty" that Faith needs to be. It is SMART. It is "unfair" in that you would think it would just be brawn, but it isn't dark.

I have this gut feeling based on what we saw in "Release" what is going to happen. Then we will have to debate how "dirty" it was. I think ending up how she did was the dirt.

If I am right, I want to know how they came up with it? AtS is kicking BtVS ass in terms of surprise twists this year.

[> [> [> [> [> Agree about Ends Justifies Means thing, but... -- Scroll, 10:40:35 03/13/03 Thu

I'm just not sure why Wesley believes that the noble ends justifies the ruthless means. Sure, it's probably part of his up-bringing, his Watcher training... but somehow it feels more than that. I could be totally off-base, but I really feel we're seeing a parallel with Season 2 Beige Angel who wanted "total war", who wanted to destroy the enemy at all costs.

Like Beige Angel, Wesley has cut off his emotions, he's distanced himself from his former friends. The cause (bringing down W&H/Angelus) is a noble cause, and Angel/Wes feel that crossing a few moral boundaries is worth it. They beat up the snitches, get the intel, infiltrate the enemy, pull on the gloves, get on that elevator to Hell -- all for the sake of a kamikaze mission they believe will end the Bad Guy forever. (Though in Wes' case, ending Angelus just means bringing back Angel.)

I see Reprise-Angel in Release-Wesley. Faith would then be Cordy/Wes/Gunn -- someone dedicated to doing good (bringing down Angelus) but who remains unwilling to lose sight of her morals, who isn't willing to cross the line in order to get it done.

As for Wesley being the anti-thesis of Buffy, it all depends on how you interpret what he says to Faith. He says, be the animal, be vicious, be dark. Take it all the way. So do we see this as echoing Buffy in "Get It Done" when she tells Spike to be dangerous, to be the vamp that nearly killed her a few times? Or do we see this Wesley as contradicting Buffy's "We don't stop evil by doing evil" line in "First Date". Personally, I'm not sure yet. We'll see after next week, hopefully.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Wes = Giles. -- lunasea, 10:50:44 03/13/03 Thu

Wes and Giles fight because they think it is the right thing to do. As such, the end is what matters.

Buffy, Angel and now Faith fight because the feel it is the right thing to do. As such, the means are an end also that need to be considered.

Buffy, Angel and now Faith have these strong hearts/conscience that speaks up when they are doing the means.

Wes and Giles have "dreams that aren't as empty as their conscience seems to be." They don't get loud messages from actions. They just do what they think will make the world a better place. Ripper will be amazing.

[> [> [> [> Re: Wesley's death wish -- maddog, 12:33:25 03/13/03 Thu

Maybe that's the watcher's job. To do what he knows his Slayer shouldn't have to. Need we be reminded some of the things Giles has pulled to "protect" Buffy. Maybe it's something they teach watchers. Who knows?

[> [> [> Re: Dark Wesley -- maddog, 11:41:33 03/13/03 Thu

See I found Wes's move the exact opposite of arrogant. I found it as desperate. Why else in their right minds would everyone agree to it(besides Evil Cordy)? They felt they had no option. They felt that Angel was the one connected to the Beast(what a bad assumption there huh). But I found it as a last ditch effort...nothing arrogant about it at all. It's not like re ensouling him would have been that hard had they not had a mole on the inside.

[> [> The 2 Wesley's (spoilers = Release) -- lunasea, 09:25:25 03/13/03 Thu

"Salvage" we saw Wes saying that he didn't want Angelus killed and he choose Faith because he knew she felt the same way. "Release" we saw Wes looking more Ripper than Giles and telling Faith that she would have to go as dark as Angelus to beat him. So will the real Wes please stand up?

Wes needs to know if Faith will go that Dark. After her fight with the Beast, she has hit bottom. She beat up his shower. He is now concerned that she will go dark again. If she goes Dark, Angelus is dust. How to find out? Make her think that you want her to do that dark. If she won't, then you know.

Then what? If she won't go that dark, she won't beat Angelus in a straight fight. Then they have to come up with something else. We just didn't get to see what. I look forward to finding out what. I have a feeling brain, not brawn will win the day. Whatever they come up with, the clues are in "Release." I liked the knife. "Wesley gave me something to get under your skin." Why does that feel really important? I got the same feeling I did when Angel talks about his photographic memory in "Habeas Corpses."

[> [> [> Re: The 2 Wesley's (spoilers = Release) -- Scroll, 09:40:10 03/13/03 Thu

He is now concerned that she will go dark again. If she goes Dark, Angelus is dust. How to find out? Make her think that you want her to do that dark. If she won't, then you know.

Hmm, not sure I entirely agree here. I think Wes really is advocating for Faith to go dark. He seems to honestly believe the only way Faith will survive going up against Angelus is for her to become as vicious and animalistic as he is. I think it's Faith who has the doubts. She fears that if she goes dark again, she'll end up killing Angelus, and she can't risk that. She can't risk losing Angel.

I liked the knife. "Wesley gave me something to get under your skin." Why does that feel really important?

I think the knife really harkens back to Faith's gift from the Mayor, that really ornate knife that Buffy ends up using to stab Faith and put her in a coma. That knife was a gift of love, but also a gift to make Faith eager to be a killer. So Wesley giving her a knife really has good and bad connotations -- love and murder. Very interesting parallel, IMHO. Well, personally I love the Wes-Faith dynamic so they can just keep giving me more of that, please : )

[> [> [> [> Re: The 2 Wesley's (spoilers = Release and Get it Done) -- lunasea, 10:16:41 03/13/03 Thu

Hmm, not sure I entirely agree here. I think Wes really is advocating for Faith to go dark. He seems to honestly believe the only way Faith will survive going up against Angelus is for her to become as vicious and animalistic as he is. I think it's Faith who has the doubts. She fears that if she goes dark again, she'll end up killing Angelus, and she can't risk that. She can't risk losing Angel.

Then how is she going to get out of her predicament? Teeth penetrated. No one has ever been able to resist once under a vampire's thrall. Fighting is no longer a possibility.

I don't think Faith has doubts. I don't think she is concerned about going dark again. She WON'T do it, period. She isn't worried about coming back. The ends don't justify the means.

We can parallel this to "Get it Done." Both our slayers this season have refused to go darker to get more power to win. Is ME's message that they both should have? Faith ended up on the other end of Angelus' teeth. Unless something is going on (that will ultimately get her out), the message is that Faith made a mistake.

When I watch a fight scene, one thing I look for is are the characters trying to win. Angelus was fighting a Slayer and he wasn't in vamp face? What was with that? I believe that Faith doesn't have a death wish any more. She really does want to save Angel. That is her sole focus. So why did she stop hitting him?

The parallel to Buffy beating on Spike is good, but there is a difference between overkill and getting Angelus unconscious to save him. She stopped long enough for him to get the upper hand. Then when he had her, she didn't fight back. She was in perfect bite position and she let him get his great line in. She wasn't unconscious. Why didn't she continue to fight? Why did she give in before the teeth were in? It takes a moment to vamp out. She didn't fight back in that moment.

And where the hairy F#$% was Wesley during this? We saw him conscious. He wanted to stay out of it.

A serious plan is going on. I can feel it. Faith was acting for Angelus. Wesley stayed out of it for a reason. Faith LET Angelus bite her for a reason.

I think the knife really harkens back to Faith's gift from the Mayor, that really ornate knife that Buffy ends up using to stab Faith and put her in a coma.

Why do I think you hit what the knife is on the head? There were plenty of references to the Faith arc on Buffy (especially "Choices) this episode. The mayor nurtures Faith's dark side and gives her that knife as a present. I think Wesley is nurturing her light side (despite how it looks) and gave her that knife as a present. Faith looses the knife in "Choices" saving Wesley from a spider. Wesley thinks she is going to kill him with it. Angelus thinks she is trying to get him with it, but I bet something else is going on, too. That knife is pretty important in "Choices." This episode is a reprise of it. Faith makes new choices this time.

Back to the knife. The Mayor gives it to Faith so she can kill things. I believe Wesley gave it to Faith so she could save Angel. It isn't for the connotations. It is part of their plan. That knife is later used by Buffy to stab Faith in order to save Angel. This sends Faith into a coma, which is where a lot of her resentment of Buffy comes from. We get some interesting dreams in that coma.

So how will ME revisit the above? We will have to see.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: The 2 Wesley's (hinting at Spoilers for Angel) -- maddog, 12:49:58 03/13/03 Thu

I know for a fact that your question about why Faith lets him do it and what Faith meant by under her skin will be answered in the next episode. Just remember, conversations, no matter how small, mean something to Joss. So maybe you should go back and watch(I wish I could...damn vcr crapped out on me 15 minutes in...thank god for next day reviews) the episode again. And that's all I'll say. :)

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: The 2 Wesley's (hinting at Spoilers for Angel) -- lunasea, 13:49:30 03/13/03 Thu

So Faith did let him do it. I KNEW IT!!!! (I will refrain from the doing the dance of superiority and just do the dance of joy. It is much easier on the spirit)

I've watched it 3 times today. I think the key is the last thing Faith says when they are in the drug-den and the look on Wesley's face. Maybe Wesley was pushing her to go dark. I think this is one of those Xander moments in "Primeval." It got the parties to look at things from a different angle.

Also, what is the key problem this episode: Angel is faster than a speeding dart.

All I have to say is OMG. How did they come up with that?!?!!?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Future Spoilers in maddog & lunasea's posts - just in case -- Scroll, 14:05:36 03/13/03 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> Is that a hard and fast rule? -- Doug, 12:56:25 03/13/03 Thu

"Then how is she going to get out of her predicament? Teeth penetrated. No one has ever been able to resist once under a vampire's thrall. Fighting is no longer a possibility."

Is that a hard and fast rule in Whedon's universe? It strikes me that the writer might be going for a subversion of traditional Vampire horror stories; and have Faith turn and beat the crap out of Angelus.

Just a possibility.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Is that a hard and fast rule? -- lunasea, 13:52:21 03/13/03 Thu

Angel says that you can't resist being vamped. Buffy was unable to break free from Angel in "Graduation Day." Are you going to say that Faith has a stronger will than Buffy?

Something even more incredible will happen.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> A point about Graduation -- Doug, 14:13:57 03/13/03 Thu

Buffy let Angel bite her at first, and after a certain amount of blood had been drained from her she wasn't strong enough to push him away. We haven't actually seen proof that someone who was strong enough couldn't fight.

[> [> Re: Hold all calls. Right there with you, cjl (spoilers) -- maddog, 10:23:18 03/13/03 Thu

While a little more hostile I still see what Wes did this week as what he did last week. I mean, if Faith wasn't up to it she would have easily gotten bitten and/or killed by the vampires outside the car. Yet he used that as a gauge as to what she's like now just as much as he thew her into a few vamps to see if her fighting skills were up to par. It was all about seeing her disgusted with his actions. Somebody had to play the bad guy here...and Wes i the only one that could pull i off.

[> [> Wes' rebirth (spoilers, Release) -- Anneth, 11:38:17 03/13/03 Thu

"I think the Beast's victory over Faith demolished not only her self-confidence, but Wesley's confidence in Faith. Notice how gentle he is with her in his apartment? That's the most open and human he's been since kidnapping Connor, IMO. It's not until Faith goes nuts in the shower that he starts questioning if she can restrain the "animal" within."

I agree that the Beast's Faith-squooshing demolished Wes' confidence in her. He's gentle, arguably even patronizing, with her before the shower. Afterwards, though, is when he really begins pushing her to take on her dark side. Metaphorically, the shower could be (as someone else pointed out elsewhere) a rebirth: Faith washes off the blood of her battle/birthing, releases a little tension (poor wall) and emerges a new woman. Or is it a mislead? She's already a different woman. She entered AtS S4 a different woman. We've never really seen this new Faith. we don't know where she's been (metaphorically - physically, she's been in Stanislaus County!) but we know she ain't what she was before.

Possibly, the significance of the shower lies in Faith's shower-wall pummelling. Not because Faith beat up the innocent tiles and released a little anger, fear, and tension, but because Wes observed the damage and interpreted it to mean that he could bring late BtVS S3 Faith back. The damage to the shower assures Wes that there's still someone evil and animalistic lurking beneath the surface, and that he can goad that someone into action. The shower is less a Faith-rebirth and more a Wes-rebirth. Wes has been morally ambiguous for a while, now, but we (I, at least) never doubted that he would have agreed whole-heartedly with Buffy's "you can't defeat evil by doing evil" mentality (granted, Buffy's not been completely consistent on that point, but I leave that subject to another post). But after noting the destruction Faith wreaks in his bathroom, he makes the monumental decision to tap it - to exploit it, and therefore her. To negate, and possibly even destroy, every ounce of humanity she's striven for.

As someone pointed out somewhere else, it's not out of character for Wes to act as though the ends justify the means - an example being his BtVS S3 willingness to sacrafice Willow for the tootsie-roll spider-thingees. But even then, he was striving for some sort of "good" and noble object. I question whether that's the case any longer. He does want Angel back, I think, but this desire is tempered by a desire to hurt, or vanquish Angelus, even if it means hurting Angel, in the long run. And so Wes arms himself with a shotgun (!) by which he can harm Angelus, take him down... but which will leave wounds that Angel may not be able to recover from (like missing parts).

Mmm. I may have lost my point in there somewhere... What I was getting at is that the shower was not a Faith-rebirth but a Wes-rebirth; he steps off that line he's been straddling for a while now and begins what could possibly become a very dark spiral of his own.

[> Angelus (spoilers for 'Release'; title for 7.15) -- Dave Arias, 08:11:27 03/13/03 Thu

>> Sigh, another episode of Angelus Lite ("more talk, less slaughter"). A lot of threatening and snarkiness, a spot of torture here and there, but no draining (the cliffhanger doesn't count) or dismemberment.>>

I'm a lil' annoyed at how the writers/producers are tinkering with the circumstances to keep Angelus from killing, too, because it does dull the sense of urgency in stopping him--but he's been so damn entertaining I forgive them. His dialogues with all the characters were either interesting, amusing, or both.

And in the end, it wasn't his kill count that made him unique, anyway--It was his intimacy with the characters, and his clever, artistic, even playful mind buggering. On that end, I think they've delivered, and kept him in character. Instead of wasting Faith with the shotgun, he taunts her, tests her physical and psychological limits, and when he's confirmed how far she's gotten in her moral development...

...he decides to try and vamp her instead. The perfect, twisted coda to all of her long, hard work. His stint in the cell, and his clever, tense ploy with Fred and the Hyperion's anti-demon violence spell were all in keeping with his character, and were very interesting.

I don't know why they're keepng him from killing people, considering they always flashback and show how evil Angelus was in the past anyway, but at least they're doing it through the plot, and not through bad characterization.

And he's so damn entertaining! :)

[> [> I will say one positive thing about this new incarnation of Angelus.... -- cjl, 08:35:51 03/13/03 Thu

I like the way he moves.

He seems faster, more powerful, more assured in his movements than Angel. He uses his awe-inspiring vertical leap almost casually, and there are times when he's more like a nocturnal mammal, gliding into and then nesting in treetops, than a sentient being with two arms and legs...and that big mouth.

Then again, Angelus has a big advantage over Angel: he doesn't have to hold back, he doesn't have to worry about hurting someone. Inflicting pain is the whole point, so he's not battling against his demonic instincts and the inherent power of his demonic form. Therefore, the vamp always looks smooooooooth.

As for the whole "not killing humans" thing, I think we should wait until the current cliffhanger is resolved and the Angelus arc is finished before we debate Angelus' human body count (or lack of same).

[> [> [> And what's the deal with his hair? -- Darby, 05:43:01 03/14/03 Fri

Angelus, I noticed, looks older than Angel, and I finally realized it's because he has a more sedate hair style. I guess he does share Angels' memories, including all of the cracks about his 'do, and the few times mirrors worked on him.

But this past episode, especially, there was something about his vocal delivery that suggested another actor, but I can't place who. Almost Nicholson in places, but not. And no, not Christian Slater!

[> [> Angelus lite (spoilers for 'Release') -- ponygirl, 08:39:12 03/13/03 Thu

Welcome to my crazy theory of the week!

I had some friends who were convinced that Angel was pretending to be Angelus to get information, but they'd all pretty much abandoned that theory by the end of Release. But it did get me thinking about the restraint Angelus seems to be showing in regards to killing humans. It'd be interesting to find out that the shaman really didn't have the power to take away souls, just make Angel believe that he had. Power of suggestion and all that. After all Angel lost his soul through what turned out to be an illusion of perfect happiness, maybe Angelus is an illusion as well...

[> [> [> Love this thought, PG! -- Rahael, 04:00:11 03/14/03 Fri

[> Angelus: He's a Rebel (spoilers for 'Release') -- cjl, 10:09:57 03/13/03 Thu

You know, I think I've finally put my finger on what's been going on with Angelus.

I keep expressing my irritation with what I call "Angelus Lite"--about his killing demons, not humans, about how he gets conveniently distracted or beaten to the punch whenever he's about to sink his fangs into a nice, juicy neck. But reading grifter's post on character similarities between AI and the Scoobies, I had a flash of insight.

Let's go back to the beginning.

In "The Prodigal" (S1), Darla turned Liam, and the demon alchemized Liam's hatred of his father's hypocricy, Liam's general loutishness and dissatisfaction with society into a particularly nasty brand of sadism, centering on family and familial bonds. Angelus specialized in terrorizing the ethnic enclaves of Europe, breaking apart the bonds of the tribe, mainly because they represented everything the darker part of Liam's psyche despised about human society.

In "Calvary," Angelus gaily sauntered out into Los Angeles, expecting to find the streets packed to the rafters with the same human offal/snack food he'd loathed and preyed upon for the last 250 years. But this was a different world. The humans were mostly dead or holed up in their homes, waiting for the sunlight to re-appear. This was a new society.

A demon society.

Angelus, with his Rebel Without a Cause attitude, was thrust into the peculiar position of maneuvering in a society ruled by his fellow demons. Sounds great, right? But Angelus discovered that a demonic society has just as many rules, just as many idiots, and a loud, pompous leader-type, who gives just as many boring speeches as his father did. No wonder he bristles at the thought of following His Master's Voice: it would be like Liam eating his vegetables and cleaning up his room. This is why he's only killed demons--they're the ones running the show, and Angelus hates ANYONE who's "running the show."

So, in summation: Angelus hasn't changed. Society changed. He adapted.

(He still should have bitten that girl, though. You have a nice hearty meal right in front of you, you finish what's on your plate, Slayer or no Slayer....)

[> [> Re: Angelus: He's a Rebel (spoilers for 'Release') -- lunasea, 10:22:26 03/13/03 Thu

Angelus, with his Rebel Without a Cause attitude, was thrust into the peculiar position of maneuvering in a society ruled by his fellow demons. Sounds great, right? But Angelus discovered that a demonic society has just as many rules, just as many idiots, and a loud, pompous leader-type, who gives just as many boring speeches as his father did. No wonder he bristles at the thought of following His Master's Voice: it would be like Liam eating his vegetables and cleaning up his room. This is why he's only killed demons--they're the ones running the show, and Angelus hates ANYONE who's "running the show."

Very perceptive. It also ties to his treatment of the Master.

I also think his desire to find the puppetmaster takes priority over tormenting his "friends" or maybe even feeding. He is definitely a focused guy. It is one of his main character traits.

[> [> Is this Wolfram and Hart's 'apocalypse'? (spoilers for Release and future speculation) -- Masq, 12:18:42 03/13/03 Thu

Through out most of the AtS series, there's been a prophecy about "the apocalypse". In the prophecy, the "vampire with a soul" is said to be a "major player" in the apocalpyse. The question the prophecy didn't seem to answer was whether this vampire would be dark or on the side of good.

Wolfram and Hart assumed they would be in charge of this apocalypse, and so they've been pulling Angel's strings for years trying to get him to turn dark. It was never quite clear whether they wanted NoirSouledAngel or Angelus as a result of their efforts, but they kept trying, because he was clearly going to be part of this apocalypse either way.

Is THIS the apocalypse that was prophecied? I think that perhaps it is. The irony is that Wolfram and Hart were the first victims of it. They have no role to play in the apocalypse. Setting that aside, Angel(us) does indeed play a major role in it. As a souled vampire, he was the main champion fighting the Beast, but could never get the upper hand. He was fighting for the goal of the triumph of Good.

As Angelus, he was able to defeat the Beast. He went after the Beast, as cjl points out (and as I do as well in my Salvage analysis), because Angelus goes after whoever dares to pull his strings. He won't put up with being anyone's lackey. Not the Beast's, and not the Beast's boss. For Angelus, it's not about killing the innocent. It's about power. He goes after anyone who challenges his power and self-determinination. If killing innocents torments the Slayer Buffy, he kills innocents, to gain the upper hand with her. If killing the Beast upsets the Beast's boss, he kills the Beast.

It's no wonder Wolfram and Hart's prophecies were unclear about which side Angel would be on. Because first he is souled and fighting the Beast on behalf of Good. Then he is unsouled and still fighting the Beast--on behalf of himself.

Chances are, he won't defeat the Beast's boss as Angelus, though. Chances are he will defeat the Beast's boss as "the vampire with a soul".

[> [> [> I'm not sure this apocalypse fits into W&H's method of operation. -- cjl, 12:42:31 03/13/03 Thu

Wolfram and Hart was always that evil whisper in your ear, that temptation to reach for the short cut, the classification of inhuman acts as technicalities to be squeezed into a legal brief and faxed to the home office by 5:15. The firm was dedicated to maintaining and nourishing the presence of evil in everyday society. Eliminating everyday society would seem to work against their best interests. Where there are no laws, why would you need a lawyer?

Even if the demons had their own system of laws, they would have their own version of lawyers. (Pylea, a Wolf/Ram/Hart subdivision, had the priesthood.) Again, not much of a motivation for the human lawyers to plan their own obsolescence. No, I think this particular apocalypse comes from an entirely different front, one not interested in the form of organized evil of Wolfram & Hart, R.I.P.

BTW, Masq, I did read your analysis of Salvage, but I was so irritated by Angelus' non-existant human body count that I never connected it to Angelus' anti-authoritarianism and the larger social context until now. Blinders....off!

[> [> [> [> Re: I'm not sure this apocalypse fits into W&H's method of operation. -- Masq, 13:22:06 03/13/03 Thu

I think his anti-authoritarianism is the key to understanding him. He's not your every day vampire only interested in a happy mass slaughter. He's got ISSUES.

Anyway, as to the apocalypse, all I was saying was this was the apocalypse that the prophecies were talking about. I made no claim that this was the apocalypse W&H had in mind. Of course it isn't! They were the first to die! They wanted an apocalypse that lead to the evil of Order--their order. The BeastMaster wants an apocalypse that leads to the evil of Chaos--rampant demon ownership of the world, apparently.

W&H didn't write the prophecy, they merely tried to interpret it, and play their cards so they'd come out on top when the apocalypse happened. Well, it happened. And the vampire with a soul is (was, will be again) a key player. And the reason for the prophecy's murkiness concerning Angel's role is becoming clear--he is a key player as both the souled vamp and the unsouled vamp.

I still believe this is the prophecied apocalypse that Lilah and company have been yakking about all these years. Especially if this turns out to be the last season of the show, I'll feel gypped if we don't get to see that!!

[> [> [> [> [> Or maybe W&H really IS behind it. -- Finn Mac Cool, 15:00:57 03/13/03 Thu

Think about it: for the last season or so, Wolfram & Hart wasn't too effectual in doing evil. They kept getting their asses kicked time and again by Angel, and the petty wars between the lawyers held them back farther. So, the Senior Partners start to get pissed. Their representatives on earth aren't doing nearly as well as they want. So they gather a bunch of mojo and use Cordelia as the host for it. Through her they summon and control the Beast, who quickly obliterates the now replaced Wolfram & Hart law firm. They then proceed to kick their plans into high gear. After all, while W&H has always existed in one form or another, it probably hasn't always been a law firm. Besides, you need some explanation for why the Beast went out of its way to destroy W&H.

[> [> [> [> [> [> You may be overinterpreting it -- KdS, 04:28:07 03/14/03 Fri

Just seen Habeus Corpses, haven't seen any later episode yet, but is it possible that Meritet's totem was the Beast's sole target at Wolfram & Hart and the mass slaughter was simply the Beast having some fun? It would be so ironic if W&H's, and the Senior Partners' Order-As-Evil plans were destroyed by the pure bloodlust of an emissary of Chaos who just wanted something they happened to have.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Slightly spoilery for Angel 4.11 -- Finn Mac Cool, 04:44:35 03/14/03 Fri

In this episode, Lilah says that the Beast wiped out all of Wolfram & Hart, including liasons, other, minor offices in the city, people out sick that day. This gave the impression of the Beast specifically hunting down and killing all of the W&H lawyers it could find.

[> [> [> [> [> Do you think this is worthy of Shanshu, if it isn't tied to what is going on on BtVS? -- lunasea, 16:47:16 03/13/03 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> I'm not really interested in Angel's shanshu -- Masq, 18:06:57 03/13/03 Thu

Well, I am in the sense that he should probably do that, if it's going to happen at all, when the series ends. Whatever the shanshu means--it may not actually mean he turns human. But if it DOES mean he turns human, I'd rather that happen at the very end, last episode of the series, last scene.

Because human Angel doesn't interest me.

[> Speculation for Orpheus...and spoilers for 'Interview with the Vampire' -- dub, 12:27:23 03/13/03 Thu

There are precious few spoilers out there for the next episode of Angel, other than the LWKCS, which I believe was revealed in the promo (though I don't get the promo here in Canada, aaarrrgghh!).

Faith is in it, so presumably she's either vamped, or she survived unvamped. I'm goin' with she survived.

If LWKCS shows up, then there must still be a need/possibility of returning Angel's soul. If there's a possibility, then maybe, somehow, the AI gang have captured him? Okay, so how do we go from Angel sinking his teeth into Faith's neck to Faith okay and Angel captured?

Made me think of a scene in the movie Interview with the Vampire; Louis and Claudia want to escape from Lestat so they "poison" him with the blood of twin little boys. I can't remember if the effect was because there was actual poison in the twin's blood, or because they were already dead when he drank from them (it's been a long time since I saw the movie/read the book) but it had the desired effect, establishing the possibility that a vampire can be affected by drinking the blood of someone who has been poisoned...or drugged? Like I say, this is speculation on my part, but I think it's a good possibility.

;o)

[> [> Oh! Oh! -- ponygirl, 12:47:28 03/13/03 Thu

dub that's it! Why else have Wes give the explanation that vamps can get off on the drugs in a human's system? They could have had the girl in that scene just be like Riley, someone who is hooked on having vamps bite her, but they added the drug use. And Faith's comment to Angelus, "Wes said you'd try to get under my skin." A set-up but a very dangerous one, since Angelus could have shot Faith or just broken her neck. I have to wonder what Faith could have taken that wouldn't effect her fighting ability but would be strong enough to take out Angelus... but I think you've got it.

[> [> [> Yeah, but good point... -- dub, 13:01:23 03/13/03 Thu

What kinda drug would allow Faith to fight with Angelus the way she did, and yet disable him?

I gotta think about this some more...

;o)

[> [> [> [> oh, how about... -- Anneth, 13:11:01 03/13/03 Thu

"What kinda drug would allow Faith to fight with Angelus the way she did, and yet disable him?"

Faith had a tranq gun, right? This is kind of sort of wildly improbable, but maybe she has some extra darts on her still, and when she feels Angelus bite, she'll yank one out and stab herself... w/o his noticing so that he doesn't stop feeding and just break her neck instead... if she has any unbroken darts left on her anyway...

Or maybe I'm reaching! :)

[> [> [> [> [> Could it be... -- ponygirl, 13:24:40 03/13/03 Thu

The knife is coated with poison? Then of course we lose the significance of the junkie girl. Hmm, I do think Wisewoman is right, I just think we'll have to await the details.

It'd be kind of funny if Faith used the poison she used on Angel in Graduation Day. She'd be both the kill and the cure.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Fantastic idea -- KdS, 04:30:50 03/14/03 Fri

It'd be kind of funny if Faith used the poison she used on Angel in Graduation Day. She'd be both the kill and the cure.

It's possible that the poison from GD doesn't have any effect at all on a human being - and the combination of poison and antidote might very well weaken Angelus to the point that he'd be captured without killing him.

[> [> [> [> [> You might be right -- Masq, 13:39:22 03/13/03 Thu

In the scene where Faith and Wesley leave Wesley's apartment to start the Angelus hunt, they make a point of showing Wesley shutting a brief case full of extra vials of tranquilizer. At the time, I thought it was to establish that Wesley's motives really were to capture Angelus alive rather than to dust him. But looked at in this context, it might have been an "establishing" moment. Establishing that they had extra tranquilizer on them in addition to Wesley's rifle and Faith's knife.

I just wonder how this fits into Wesley's whole speech about how Faith needs to get "dark" and be williing to "go all the way" in order to defeat Angelus. Maybe he didn't mean "all the way" into darkness. Maybe he meant "all the way" into risking her own death. I'll have to go back and rewatch with this in mind.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Are we all forgetting 'Go Fish'? -- Finn Mac Cool, 14:28:22 03/13/03 Thu

It appeared that Angel has a very bad reaction to drinking blood with steroids in it. Maybe Wesley had Faith shoot up some steroids into her system. Which would either badly affect Angelus, or make him pull back from the bite.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Are we all forgetting 'Go Fish'? -- anom, 22:49:21 03/13/03 Thu

"It appeared that Angel has a very bad reaction to drinking blood with steroids in it."

I don't think that was a reaction to the steroids. The implication I got was that the guy's physiology had changed so much (didn't he "go fish" the next day?) that his blood wasn't close enough to human to be palatable to a vampire.

Hmm...we've seen vamps who can't/won't feed from humans drink pig (& maybe other animals humans eat) & rat blood--wonder how close to human the animal has to be for a vamp to be able to drink/live on it? Any mammal? Any warm-blooded animal? Not fish, apparently, so not all vertebrates.

But back to the idea of drugging Faith's blood...I doubt it. Don't know if I can give a reason, except that it would have to act fast enough to drop Angelus before Faith dies. I'm figuring on an elbow to the gut or a back kick to the knee. She didn't look too far gone yet to fight back.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> True, but... -- Random, 03:11:40 03/14/03 Fri

It's been shown elsewhere that vampires are affected by substances in the bloodstream -- Spike's reference to feeding off a flowerchild and being affected by the acid/opium/whatever in the victim springs to mind. It seems to me that I recall another such reference...but it escapes me entirely right now. Sorry. But it's true that the "steroids in the blood" hypothesis was merely speculation on the Scoobies' part. The actual cause was never confirmed.

[> [> [> [> Re: Yeah, but good point... -- Doug, 13:38:43 03/13/03 Thu

Probably some form of slow-acting poison. As long as it isn't the toxin from Graduation it won't kill Angelus, but the right venom will keep him out of it for long enough for the AI gang to cage him.

In School Hard Spike said "I fed of a Flower person, and I spent the next 6 hours watching my hand move."

6 hours. I don't think Vamps have a high tolerance for stuff put in their blood.

As for Faith hopefully her Slayer healing powers will be enough to allow her to survive the toxin.

[> [> [> [> Hey dub, don't forget Season 3 -- Tyreseus, 18:26:08 03/13/03 Thu

The Graduation, Part 1

Not all poisons are purely physical, some are mystical, too. And Faith knows this.

Maybe she knows a mystical vamp tranquilizer.

Interestingly, you and I arrived at the same speculation (see mine in a post above). Hmm...

[> [> [> [> [> Ah, another good point...thanks -- dub ;o), 22:19:09 03/13/03 Thu

[> [> [> I think this is very close (spoiler speculation and Release) -- lunasea, 16:35:07 03/13/03 Thu

But it isn't what she took (probably whatever is in the darts that we see in viles at the beginning that are in the bag that Faith carries out of Wesley's apartment), but when.

Faith was playing Angelus. She was provoking him into biting her. The whole thing was an act. They weren't going to be able to shoot him with the tranq gun, as we saw throughout this episode. They had to get the stuff into his system somehow.

When I first saw "Release," I thought "Salvage" was better. In the second viewing I figured out (maybe) what they had to set up and it was absolutely incredible. I still like how Fury handled some of the big questions about Faith so simply, but the intricacy of this episode that gets missed on first viewing is amazing.

Only Tim could follow this up.

[> [> [> [> Who is writing 'Orpheus'? (writer spoilers?) -- Masq, 16:37:59 03/13/03 Thu

According to Angel's Acolyte site, it's Mere Smith.

[> Closing out the thread: Brain Damage/Eclipse -- cjl, 09:18:28 03/14/03 Fri

Thought this would be an appropriate way to go out before Masq archived the thread. Interesting how the finale of Dark Side of the Moon reflects what's going on in Angel right now. "There's someone in my head, and it's not me." Remind you of somebody we know?

All words and music Roger Waters

[Brain Damage]

The lunatic is on the grass
The lunatic is on the grass
Remembering games and daisy chains and laughs
Got to keep the loonies on the path

The lunatic is in the hall
The lunatics are in my hall
The paper holds their faces to the floor
And every day the paper boy brings more

And if the dam breaks open many years too soon
And if there is no room upon the hill
And if your head explodes with dark forebodings too
I'll see you on the dark side of the moon

The lunatic is in my head
The lunatic is in my head
You raise the blade, you make the change
You rearrange me 'till I'm sane
You lock the door and throw away the key
And there's someone in my head but it's not me

And if the cloud bursts thunder in your ear
You shout and no one seems to hear
And if the band you're in starts playing different tunes
I'll see you on the dark side of the moon

[Eclipse]

All that you touch, and all that you see
All that you taste, and all that you feel
All that you love and all that you hate
All you distrust, all you save
And all that you give, and all that you deal
And all that you buy, beg, borrow or steal
All that you eat and everyone you meet
All that you slight and everyone you fight
And all that is now, and all that is gone
And all that's to come, and everything under the sun is in tune
But the sun is eclipsed by the moon..

"There is no dark side of the moon...matter of fact, it's all dark."

(Heartbeat....)

New week's A:tS episode title (spoilers for ep title, promo, and both series aired-eps-to-date) -- Veronica, 23:27:55 03/12/03 Wed

Next week's Episode: "Orpheus"

Here's some light background on the Greek heroic legend: Orpheus.

So, who is Orpheus? Eurydice? Dionysus?

I tend to think the Orpheus character next week is Willow. There are some parallels in Willow's story:

Orpheus was inconsolable at this second loss of his wife. He spurned the company of women and kept apart from ordinary human activities.

and

Orpheus' head floated down the river, still singing, and came to rest on the isle of Lesbos.

Orpheus as nature-boy ("whose songs could charm wild beasts and coax even rocks and trees into movement") reminds me of the Willow we saw at the beginning of BtVS season 7 - it's all connected, and Gaia, and making flowers bloom from Paraguay. ;-) Orpheus' role in protecting his friends from the Sirens is also reminiscent of the many times Willow has used her magic to protect her friends. So, in this comparison, Orpheus' song is Willow's magic.

Willow has played out the story of Eurydice a couple of times in the BtVS story. First, she worked magic to compel the gatekeepers of the Underworld to return Buffy (from what she mistakenly thought was Hades). This was a qualified success, but not a failure to the degree in the Orpheus tale. This comparison is strenthened or weakened by your interpretation of the depth of the bond between Buffy and Willow. It's obviously platonic, but there is depth and committment there to rival most romantic relationships.

A second time, Willow attempted to command the underworld gods and was rebuffed. When Tara died, Willow was unable to use her magic to bring her back. This is similar to Orpheus' second attempts to enter Hades (see the Bulfinch version for more details).

Of course, we can't have Willow succumb to Orpheus' fate - though that is exactly what the First Evil^tm tried to do - rejoin her lover in the afterlife. Part of her interaction this season (especially "The Killer In Me") has been about enabling her to leave the Orpheus story behind. So I would guess that we will see is Willow shaking off the failure of the mythological Orpheus, and successfully bringing back Eurydice from Hades.

And just who is Eurydice? I see the potential for Willow to be the catalyst for "bringing back" at least Angel (duh), Faith, and Wesley. Angel is pretty clear - she's there to resoul him. Faith can be brought back in several senses - from the brink of vampire-ness, from her own dark side, from her isolation, and to Sunnydale. Wesley has several of the same issues that Faith does, and Willow is likely to be the only Sunnydale native to see how much he has changed. That's bound to raise for Wesley comparisons to how far he's come and where he's gone. We may see parallel storylines play out with Wesley on Angel, and Faith on BtVS.

All this is unspoiled speculation, based only on both series to date and the promo for next week's ep. I work really hard to stay unspoiled, so please don't add any spoilers to this thread.

I'd love to hear what those of you more schooled in Greek mythology think of the episode title, and what other characters might sub in for Orpheus and Eurydice.

Regards,
Veronica
(hey, my longest post yet)

[> Wonderful post! (same spoilers as above) -- Scroll, 23:46:13 03/12/03 Wed

I'll post more later, but just wanted to say this is fascinating stuff. Especially like your analysis of Willow as Orpheus in Season 6.

But I'm wondering, don't Faith and Wesley also play that role? They're the ones who "journey to hell" to bring back their loved one, Angel/Eurydice. If Willow/Tara is Orpheus/Eurydice, then does that element of soul-mate or lover need to be there? Cuz I don't think Willow is really *that* close to Angel. While Wesley and Faith are certainly best friend and soul-sister material.

[> Keeping your longest post yet alive Spoilers Release -- fresne, 00:10:05 03/13/03 Thu

Hmmm...juicy mythology in the offing.

Song. Speach. Persuasion. Orphean mysteries.

Okay, I'll actually need to see the episode. I'm still cogitating the latest offering. Once more swimming the darker depths. The rain showerhead (mom has one and that's what it's intended to simulate) falling to wash away the blood. Blood washes away sin. Water washes away blood. Words raining like blows. Hopefully, I'll have more actual to say when I'm done dreaming.

In the meantime, here's a story I wrote a while and half ago about Orpheus.

anticipation

[> [> Printing up your story to enjoy later! Thanks fresne! -- ponygirl, 07:42:41 03/13/03 Thu

[> [> Wonderful story, fresne. Thank you. -- Resh, 10:48:13 03/13/03 Thu

[> And if ME really wants to be daring... -- Valheru, 01:10:28 03/13/03 Thu

...they'd parallel not only the mythological Orpheus, but also Neil Gaiman's Orpheus from The Sandman. Not sure what that parallel would be, not until we see the ep, but it would be interesting, especially given ME's subtle Sandman allusions in the past. Maybe Angel takes on the Morpheus/Dream role, which would make Connor Orpheus and Cordy Eurydice (and both Cordy and Darla as Calliope). There are some strong Dream/Corinthian connections with Angel/Angelus, anyway. Except, in this case, Orpheus would be trying to save an evil Eurydice. Willow then acts as the Furies (fighting Connor's misguided Orphean protection of the Eurydicean Cordelia) and as a reverse-Kindly Ones (damning Angelus by restoring his soul). And Lorne fits the Barnabas role so well...

[> [> trying again (Voy demon expelled me) sandman allusions -- Helen, 01:34:50 03/13/03 Thu

We can extend the allusion to the Sandman/Orpheus story by seeing Wes as Dream's brother Destruction. He gave Orpheus a way to get to Eurydice by sending him to see their sister Death so that he could reach Hades, much as Wes kidnapped Connor and so inadvertently set in train a whole series of tragic events. It also lead to Destruction's exile from his brothers and sisters, much as Wes was exiled from AI in series 3.

[> [> [> Excellent!!! -- V, 02:27:49 03/13/03 Thu

[> [> [> [> Thanks V, great to find someone else who still loves Sandman -- Helen, 02:45:03 03/13/03 Thu

Has huge resonance for me, and until Buffy came along was utterly obsessed. See lots of parallels - Dawn's story in S5 always reminded me of Rose and her dual nature as the Vortex in "Doll's House". Just love it all.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Thanks V, great to find someone else who still loves Sandman -- Rahael, 03:23:42 03/13/03 Thu

I only discovered them recently (thanks to KdS!!) and I've enjoyed them immensely

[> [> [> [> [> [> Me, too. I started reading Sandman last year. Read all of the 10 collected volumes in a week. -- Rob, 08:06:39 03/13/03 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Thanks V, great to find someone else who still loves Sandman -- fresne, 08:54:51 03/13/03 Thu

Oh, totally Sandman.

I did Doll's House in my Literature orals. First comic (the typical story, college boyfriend introduced me) that I ever really got into. And if there weren't that anti-comic bias, I think it should totally be on that top 100 influential books list that is (and this one's for you Darby) meming around right now. I've known any number people who got into comics because of Gaiman. And if anyone out there ever gets an opportunity to attend a reading, do it. It's totally worth the lines and the waiting.

I could completely believe in Death wandering the Buffyverse. Being bright and perky to the Fanged Four in some dive at some point in history. Dru babbling about goldfish. Conversing with a little Delerium, who was once Delight in a more innocent age of the world. And in an ATLtS sort of way the second Corinthian always made me think of Spike. Or actually, it's the other way around.

As we near the end of the narrative story of Buffy, I reflect more and more on Destiny's discussion of stories. How we don't come in at the beginning and we don't leave at the end. We just come in at some middle point and stay for awhile. And when we leave, the story goes on. Perhaps to be picked up again in The Dreaming. Perhaps in Fray.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Like Sandman?! Try Alan Moore's The Watchmen -- Brian, 10:30:12 03/13/03 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Oh, yeah! Nodding in agreement -- fresne, 10:54:04 03/13/03 Thu

It sits proudly on my shelf. Talk about a freaking, oh my God end. And middle. And beginning.

Along with Enigma - Another example, of you reach the end and woah, that was, okay, now I have to re-read from that perspective.

Oh, and the Sandman 10 year anniversary issue. Very nice. Freaking gorgeous art.

Some collected Swamp thing. I love the Gotham issue. Very nice in a post- "oh, he isn't a man become a monster, but a god who thinks he's a man" sort of way. Arkam Asylum, my copy of which spontaneously exploded. Let's have a moment of silence here and don't ask.

Comics. Drugs would be cheaper and given the location of my office, more convenient to acquire.

[> Great thread! -- Rahael, 03:24:59 03/13/03 Thu

[> Small but Interesting Note on Orpheus -- frisby, 04:17:01 03/13/03 Thu

According to the philosopher Francis Bacon, in his "Wisdom of the Ancients," the story of Orpheus is the story of philosophy!

It's worth checking out, but usually only available in the collected works or in some of the older editions of his essays.

If there were interest I could type it in to the forum since its only a few pages.

[> [> Re: Small but Interesting Note on Orpheus -- aliera, 04:45:10 03/13/03 Thu

frisby: I would be interested but I don't want to create a great deal of work for you.

[> [> would love to read that if its not too much hassle for you. -- Helen, 05:33:52 03/13/03 Thu

[> [> Me too -- lunasea, 06:43:24 03/13/03 Thu

[> [> Is this it? -- Darby, 07:22:18 03/13/03 Thu

I'm a googling fool this morning - checking plagiarism on research papers.

Is this the essay?

[> [> [> wow, wow, wow -- Helen, 07:38:20 03/13/03 Thu

That rocks! Thankyou Frisbe and Darby.

And if you are still in a googling mood, Darby, could you tell me where I can find an original account of the Orpheus story - is it Homer or some other fellow?

ta muchly.

[> [> [> [> It's a mythstery -- Darby, 08:10:20 03/13/03 Thu

I'm used to a lot of these compelling stories to be both myths and ancient plays, but all I can find about Orpheus suggests that the story was just a well-known myth, and the plays written about it were centuries later.

There is kind of an interesting rundown at
http://homepage.mac.com/cparada/GML/Orpheus.html

[> [> [> [> [> ...And recently, it was the inspiration for 'Moulin Rouge.' (MR spoilers) -- Rob, 10:47:21 03/13/03 Thu

The whole going back into the "underworld" of the night club to retrieve his bride. And just like Orpheus, Christian turns around and loses her.

Rob

[> I've been thinking about this since the title was released( spoiler Release) -- lunasea, 08:44:59 03/13/03 Thu

I am unspoiled except for the standard BS trailer that WB creates that has no bearing on what the next episode actually is. I like the idea of a vamped Faith, if for no other reason Vamp Faith and Angelus sex scenes (and other interaction) would be amazing, but as soon as the trailer made it sound like this is what happens, you know it isn't going to. It would be an interesting way for Sunnydale to find out what is going on. "Why did another Potential get called?" Then Willow can come to LA to curse not Angel, but Faith. We will have 3 slayers then. Would make Faith perfect for Spike. Too complicated though.

I really liked the Willow idea. I don't think she will be in the episode long enough for her to be what the title is mainly about. The title probably refers to several Orpheuses (Orpheux?).

Not sure that Eurydice is a person. My original thought, since this is his show (and possibly his last appearance), Orpheus will be Angelus. What would be hell for Angelus? At first I thought it would be doing something good. After last night, I figured it would be having to follow someone's orders. Either way, Eurydice was the same, not getting his soul back. "Orpheus" will probably contain the resouling, so loosing Eurydice would be like getting his soul back. Interesting twist.

Now I'm not so sure. The underworld represents the unconscious. It was thinking about a descent to hell that was messing me up. What is really Angelus' hell? What is really Angel's hell? Memories. Angelus is in the same position Angel is in. It is something that could be interesting to explore.

First the character of Angelus as Orpheus. Music was Orpheus' art form. Sadism is Angelus'. Orpheus was the greatest poet and musician of his time. Angelus is the most cruel of his. Orpheus moved people and Angelus can make even the Slayers feel fear.

What would be Eurydice? What does Angelus love? Evil. Same basic thing as not getting his soul back. A snake bite sends Eurydice to hell. A gypsy curse relegated his ability to be evil to the unconscious (Cordelius did a great job setting the episode up in "Release").

Orpheus travels to the underworld to get Eurydice back. Have we seen Angelus be really evil? Hardly. Does that seem out of character to anyone else? How about everyone else? When things seem out of character, I have learned that that is so important it actually drives the arc. Angelus isn't really evil. It will take a journey into his unconscious to get this back.

Into his unconscious he will go. In Angelus' unconscious rests those memories and the actual demon. The demon is Hades. Angelus' evil will "impress" the demon so that the demon will enable Angelus to be really evil again. The catch, he can't look back at it. In looking back over the evil he has done, Angelus will learn a lot. He will also see the good he has done as Angel. He will see what informs him. He will see that he is Angel. In this, he will loose his ability to be truly evil. He will also find out who has his soul this episode (we will see him remember enough that could lead him to figure it out)

Angel's soul is in a jar in Cordelius' possession. Willow's appearance makes it obvious that she will do the resouling. Willow will force it on Angelus. That leads me to think that something else will happen. Can't wait to see what that is.

For some reason, I just picture this scene at the end. Angelus is back in the cage, unconscious. Cordy is upstairs being pregnant. Faith and Willow have gone back to Sunnydale, since Angelus is locked back up and Willow can't do anything if the soul isn't free. The gang is outside the cage talking about what options they have. If they can't find the soul, they can't resoul Angel. They don't know where his soul is. Angelus wakes up and says seriously "I do."

Thus Orpheus is destroyed once and for all. Next episode then opens with the Shaman leaving or something like that.

Have to see what happens. I am unspoiled.

For me Orpheus/Eurydice symbolizes those dreams we have that we remember when we are in that twilight state, but can't remember when we are actually awake.

[> Orpheus and Ovid -- cjl, 11:29:41 03/13/03 Thu

For a poetic interpretation of the Orpheus legend, you can always go to Ovid. (BTW, did anyone in the NYC area see the "Metamorphoses" theatrical production--the one with the swimming pool?)

From "Metamorphoses," Book X, 1-106: Orpheus in Hades

"His expression was gloomy, and he did not sing his accustomed refrain. Even the torch he carried sputtered and smoked, bringing tears to the eyes, and no amount of tossing could make it burn. The outcome was even worse than the omens foretold: for while the new bride was wandering in the meadows, with her band of naiads, a serpent bit her ankle, and she sank lifeless to the ground. The Thracian poet mourned her loss; when he had wept for her to the full in the upper world, he made so bold as to descend to through the gate of Taenarus to the Styx, to try to rouse the sympathy of the shades as well. There he passed among the thin ghosts, the wraiths of the dead, till he reached Persephone and her lord, who holds sway over these dismal regions, the king of the shades."

Orpheus pleads with Pluto for life of his bride:

"As he sang these words to the music of his lyre, the bloodless ghosts were in tears: Tantalus made no effort to reach the waters that ever shrank away, Ixion's wheel stood still in wonder, the vultures ceased to gnaw Titys's liver, the daughters of Danaus rested from their pitchers, and Sisyphus sat idle on his rock. Then, for the first time, they say, the cheeks of the Furies were wet with tears, for they were overcome by his singing. The king and queen of the underworld could not bear to refuse his pleas. They called Euridice. She was among the ghosts who had but newly come, and walked slowly because of her injury. Thracian Orpheus recieved her, but on condition that he must not look back until he had emerged from the valleys of Avernus or else the gift he had been given would be taken from him.

Up the sloping path, through the mute silence they made their way, up the steep dark track, wrapped in impenetrable gloom, till they had almost reached the surface of the earth. Here, anxious in case his wife's strength be failing and eager to see her, the lover looked behind him, and straightaway Eurydice slipped back into the depths. Orpheus stretched out his arms, straining to clasp her and be clasped; but the hapless man touched nothing but yielding air. Eurydice, dying now a second time, uttered no complaint against her husband,...

At his wife's second death, Orpheus was completely stunned. He was like the timid fellow who, when he saw three-headed Cerberus led along, chained by the middle one of his three necks, was turned to stone in every limb...in vain did the poet long to cross the Styx a second time, and prayed that he might do so. The ferryman thrust him aside.

Three times the sun had reached the watery sign of Pisces, that brings the year to a close. Throughout this time Orpheus had shrunk from loving any woman, either because of his unhappy experience, or because he had pledged himself not to do so...Orpheus preferred to centre his affections on boys of tender years, and to enjoy the brief spring and flowering of their youth: he was the first to introduce this custom among the people of Thrace.

On the top of a certain hill was a level stretch of open ground, covered with green turf. There was no shelter from the sun, but when the divinely-born poet seated himself there and struck his melodious strings, shady trees moved to the spot. The oak tree of Chaonia and poplars, Phaethon's sisters, crowded round, along with Jupiter's great oak, with its lofty branches, and soft lime trees and beeches, and the virgin laurel, brittle hazels, and ash trees, that are used for spear shafts, smooth firs and the holm oak, bowed down with acorns, the genial sycamore, and the variegated maple, willows that grow by the rivers and the water loving lotus, evergreen box, slender tamarisks, myrtles double-hued, and viburnum with its dark blue berries. There was ivy too, trailing its tendrils, and leafy vines, vine clad elms and mountain ash, pitchpine and wild strawberry, laden with rosy fruit, waving palms, the victor's prize, and the pine, its leaves gathered up into a shaggy crest, the favourite tree of Cybele, the mother of the gods: for her priest Attis exchanged his human shape for this, and hardened into its trunk."

[> [> Metamorphoses and a taste of AtS spoilers -- fresne, 13:35:56 03/13/03 Thu

Huh, I'm all over this thread. This never happens.

Anyway, yes, I saw Metamorphoses when it was playing in Berkeley. The use of the sunken pool in the center of the stage as a literally fluid, changing space was just incredible. And the re-use of actors as they changed from role to role. An exceptionally well done play. I never would have thought you could translate something like Metamorphoses (although I wouldn't mind seeing a Monty Python-esk version of his Guide to picking up chicks in ancient rome) into a stage production. Certainly, not with some a strong sense of theme.

Random thought, with all the needing to deal with dad on AtS, we certainly have a lot of pregnant evil/possessed women. Dips into the ocean. Births in the rain. Shower. And if I may say the almost liquid qualities of light.

[> [> Loved Metamorphoses! -- Veronica, 16:19:33 03/13/03 Thu

I'm looking at the Metamorphoses poster (signed by the cast) right now. I wanted to see it over again for each friend, just to be sure they all got to it - but of course that gets pricey quick. ;-) Hey, here's a real treat if you don't know what I'm talking about - I googled a link to the poster: Metamorphoses.

The profound feeling I was left with after seeing Metamorphoses was the (dare I say it?) fluidity of persona, identity, and role. I hadn't drawn the connection before, but of course it is that fluidity that brings so much of the depth I love to Joss' characters.

I see that as the major contrast to Charmed... I once watched an episode (just one!) where someone turned their spellbook evil, and it had the effect of turning the sisters "evil". And it was like they'd been splashed with black paint... no sense that this was anything internal to them, or a true transformation. The moment the spell was over, they snapped back to their old selves as if it never happened.

The trick of Metamorphoses (the one on Broadway) was that one thing blended into the other and even opposites were shades of each other. The water in which the sailor drowns is the womb from which new life is born (or reborn as a seagull). The water that hides is the water that also reveals (especially with the thin white dress). And, of course, there is the duality of the water and the fire, so movingly presented in the conclusion. (Hm, do I need spoiler warnings for Metamorphoses?)

I like the same blending of duality and change that is presented in BtVS and Angel. The first thing I thought watching the beginning of "Get It Done" was that Buffy had transformed patrolling - she was patrolling inside the house like a Mom tucking in the kids and turning off the lights... in contrast to seek-and-destroy patrolling required of a slayer. I like that who you are as a person informs who you are as a vampire - and (in Angel's and Spike's cases) vice-versa.

Um, so I don't really have anything to tie this back to how Orpheus and Eurydice will play out in the next episode, but I liked the show so much and the show's poster is so lovely that I wanted to share.

Cheers,
Veronica

The Moral Compass and Faith(release spoils) -- neaux, 04:41:48 03/13/03 Thu

Ok. Could someone define MORAL COMPASS for me. Because my definition could be waaaay off.

But I would define MORAL COMPASS as our inner guide to what is good and bad, the directions we take towards good or bad are our choices decided by an internal compass.

So Question: Can we truly be led astray by others? or does our Moral Compass make the deciding direction of our path?

The reason I bring this up is of course FAITH. We all know Faith has made bad decisions in the past, and Wes challenges her choices for her upcoming battle with Angellus. So why did I bring up the concept of a Moral Compass??

Well DUH!!! The Final battle of the night took place on a big giant Compass directional pattern on the floor. Faith is actually centered in the compass. This visual moment defines her whole character's upcoming decision. She needs to go the right direction, She wants to go in the right direction but she feels she only has one chance. Again, the idea of crossroads could be used.

What is funny is that her choice is to follow/fight Angellus and the direction she chooses is UP. Is it ironic? Kinda, but more importantly its off the beaten path (to use a cliche). In a 2d flat view of Faith, she chooses to expand her 3rd dimension and head up for her ultimate challenge.

So we have the scaffold fight.

I choose to stop here before I make a bigger ass of myself, especially if I defined MORAL COMPASS wrong. But please I would love to hear other people's interpretations of this scene!!

thanks!

[> for fear of this topic being eaten by Voy I'm writing a second line. ^_^ -- neaux, 04:43:18 03/13/03 Thu

[> Re: Back! Voy Monster! Back -- Brian, 05:21:17 03/13/03 Thu

I guess I would see MC as a social pointer to do what society considers right. Within ourselves are our decisions to follow that direction or not.

[> Re: The Moral Compass and Faith(release spoils) -- ponygirl, 08:59:51 03/13/03 Thu

Very nice catch, neaux! I noticed the pattern on the floor but didn't make the connection. I also took the scaffolding to suggest that Faith as a person is still under construction. This definitely applies to her morality as well.

[> That Escher perspective (Release spoils) -- Arethusa, 09:18:00 03/13/03 Thu

Angel(us) is again caught in his M. C. Escher perspective. The huge building Maury is working out of, which reminds me a bit of the hotel, is like Escher's . The compass doesn't have any directions on it-we don't know which way is which. There is a lot of falling and rising in both the hotel and Maury's building during Angelus' fights with Faith and AI. Escher houses are almost turned inside and out, with stairs rising and falling, and its people could be either going up or down. Cordy rises to a higher plane and becomes evil-Angel sinks to the depth and regains his mission, as do Faith and Wes. Angel thinks he knows who he is, but he hasn't even begun to understand himself. Every staircase/fall he takes returns him to where he began-himself. And the farther and more quickly he runs, the faster he returns to where he started-his fractured nature.

Does that make a kind of sense that's not?

While I'm talking about framing-there is a picture of a bridge between Wes and Faith when they return to his apartment. A promise of hope for the future?

Also:

Was Cordy holding the orb the Beast swallowed? I dont want to know how she got it back, if it is.

[> [> Help!! Masq?? (Whimper!) Dropped Tag alert. -- Arethusa, 09:22:15 03/13/03 Thu

What did I do? I was trying to post a link and wackiness ensued. What do I do now??

[> [> You didn't drop the tag, you have an extra ' in there where it's not supposed to be. -- Masq, 09:45:25 03/13/03 Thu

[> [> [> Thanks. % ( (That means I'm rolling my eyes at myself for my goof.) -- Arethusa, 09:58:42 03/13/03 Thu

[> [> I thought that thing belonged to Angel. -- WickedBuffy, 20:42:19 03/13/03 Thu

Character Paralells between AI and the SG (SPOILERS and spec AtS and BtVS all aired eps) -- grifter, 08:56:28 03/13/03 Thu

"Character Paralells between Angel Investigations and the Scoobie Gang"

First, I hadn�t had time yet to read through all of the posts about the latest Angel episode, so if some of my points have been stated already I apoplogize for repeating it.

The current seasons of Buffy and Angel feature paralell themes, as has been pointed out in the past by many posters both wiser and more perceptful then me. Characters go through similar situations, similar problems are being adressed, the Nagelus storyline parallels his storyline in Buffy season 2, etc. . And then, last night, watching "Release", something made "click" in my brain. It was shortly after Wesleys "you need to be dark again, you twisted torturer you, yadda yadda, I�m the biggest prick ever"-speech to Faith. Wesley IS Buffy. I mean, not literally, �cause that would be, like, lame. But he plays Buffy�s part in the Angelverse. This was the initial thought that made me write this whole thingamajig. The more I thought about it, the more similarities between the two shows characters I found. Come with me now, if you will, gentle readers. Join me on a new voyage of the mind, a little tale I like to call:

Wesley = Buffy
The generals of their respective armies. Wesley was the one suggesting to remove Angel�s soul, the one telling Faith that he needs her to be evil (and thus powerful) again. Buffy told Spike she needs him to be dangerous again, she needs season 2 Spike (= soulless Spike) back She�s the one pushing Willow to tap into magic again. They both are currently on a self-righteous martyr-trip, thinking they need to become dark to defeat evil (although Buffy maybe started that attitude again after "Get It Done", we�ll see). Holden�s analysis of Buffy in "Conversations With Dead People" seems to apply to Wesley also:

"You do have a superiority complex, and you've got an inferiority complex about it."

Wesley thinking that he knew better then everyone else was what drove him to kidnap Connor back in season 3. Of course, he also willingly sacrificed his friendship with Angel, a noble act, "if someone has to take the fall it�ll be me" he thought. He protected the AI gang from having to take the baby away if he told them and Angel from killing his son if he didn�t).

Angel(us)=Spike
Ok, this one is "easy-peasy", to quote my favorite tv-cook. The vampires with a soul need to go back to being vampires without a soul to be of use. Angel was to weak to fight the Beast, so they brought back Angelus. New!Spike is of no help, so he gets his coat and is Dangerous!Spike again. All for their respective lady-loves (it�s Cordy and Buffy who give the final push).

"Whoo-Hoo!"

But their both not happy with the outcome. Angelus isn�t happy. LA is a battlefield; no subtlety, no helpless victims to terrorize, no fame to be gained. Killing fish in a barrel is no fun to him. Times have changed, and there seems to be nothing the big, bad Angelus can do to keep himself occupied. So he decides to mess with the Beast, because he doesn�t like being ordered around. And because it�s fun. But then the Beast�s master makes him his flunky. Ouch!
We see that Spike is very uncomfortable with the Big Bad-role in "Storyteller". He pretends to be dangerous, but he knows that he�ll never truly be what he was. Times have changed.

Faith=Willow
Both women have gone bad at one point in time. They where both on a selfdestructive trip of vengeance (Faith because she envied Buffy, Willow for Tara�s death), talked down at last by friends and seeking redemeption since. Both are unsure if they should use their full power, afraid it will send them over the edge again.
I think Faith and Willow have always been more similiar then either would like to think. They both needed someone who made them feel special. Faith found this person in the Mayor, Willow in Oz (replaced by Tara). They would do anything for this person. Faith murdered for the Mayor, Willow nearly brought down Glory after she hurt Tara. When that person was taken away they where at their most dangerous. Faith takes Buffy�s life literally away from her ("This Year�s Girl", "Who Are You?"), Willow nearly destroyed the world ("Grave").
They both need to find their place in the world again, they need to find out who they are without someone else defining it for them.

Connor=Wood
Connor wants to kill the souled vampire Angel because of what he did to his father (Holtz) and might do to his mother-figure and lover (Cordelia).
Wood wants to kill the souled vampire Spike because of what he did to his mother (Nicki) and might do to his mother-figure and potential lover (Buffy).
Need I say any more?
There might also be a little bit of Kennedy in Connor. The recklessness. The newbie-wants-to-take-charge attitude.

Lorne=Dawn
They are the ones who don�t have any physical prowess. Who lead the research (remember, it was Lorne in "Release" who gave the clue where they could find Angel). Who stand in the background. Who stay home when the fighters go out to fight the good fight. (Dawn tried to escape that role in "Potential", but learned that she was of more use in research-mode.) The ones everybody has forgotten about are "special" too. The demon and the Key.
Oh, and those who complain that Lorne has so little to do? His hour will come, just like Dawn�s will. They�ll both play big roles in the end.

Gunn=Xander
The firt paralell that comes to mind is that they both had to kill someone close to them wh had been vamped. Gunn staked his sister in "War Zone", Xander staked Jesse in "The Harvest". They have since learned to live in peace with Angel and Spike, the vampires that remind them of their loss each and every day (Xander to a much smaller degree then Gunn of course).
They have both disappointed their girlfriends in their most important hours. Gunn refused to let Fred throw Professor Seidel through a portal in "Supersymmetry", Xander left Anya at the Altar in "Hell�s Bell�s". They did the "right thing", realizing that it will maybe damage their respective relationship forever.
Now they both have a big, black hole where their heart should be. But it looks like both Fred and Anya seem to come to an understanding of why Gunn and Xander had to do what they did.

Fred=Anya
Read "Gunn=Xander" for the relationship-stuff.
Both women think that they are only powerful when they are evil. Fred as a murderer, Anya as a demon. That power has been taken from them. Now they are struggling to find their power outside of their "dark side".

The Beast=the Turok-Han
The unbeatable foe. Physically violent, beating up our heroes, demolishing all hope with brutal, bone-crushing blows. But defeated easily in the end by their own weapons. Angelus kills The Beast with a weapon forged out of it�s own bones. Buffy kills the Turok-Han by beating it senseless and then decapacitating it. They where the "level-bosses", now they�ve made way for the "end-bosses".

The Beast�s Master=The First
Untouchable. Mysterious. Using henchman to fight their battles. The true face of both (if they even have one) has not been revealed yet.

What I saved for last is not a pleasant thought. Which characters are left? Cordelia and Giles. I�m afraid Giles has been taken over by the First, just like Cordelia was by the Beast�s Master (or replaced, brainwashed, whatever).

There are many, many more similarites between the character-pairs mentioned that I didn�t write down because a. I don�t have the time, and b. I�m getting a cramp in my hand. So if you think of anything you�d like to add please do.

Thanks for your time, gentle reader!

[> Very interesting!! -- Rahael, 09:53:40 03/13/03 Thu

[> Nice work, grifter. You may have inadvertently answered some of my questions about Angelus. -- cjl, 10:13:21 03/13/03 Thu

See "He's a Rebel," below.

[> [> Angelus' modus operandi (spoilers for Release) -- Masq, 10:28:45 03/13/03 Thu

That makes a certain amount of sense. Angelus has never been much of a killer. Back in Sunnydale, he was much more known for his torture. I remember people complaining back in S. 2 of BtVS that Angelus didn't seem to kill anybody, except Ms. Calendar and perhaps one or two stray humans. He was set up as someone who was supposed to "kill all of Buffy's friends", and with that set-up, he came out looking kind of wimpy. The writers made Angelus a sadist, I think, so he could "do bad things" without killing any of the regular (contracted) cast.

Angelus kills to feed, but mostly, he wants his kills to be a challenge, or to send a message to someone. Killing a stray human woman running from vampires in the darkness of no-sun L.A. is not a challenge. Killing the Beast is a challenge, and it sends a message to the Beast's boss. Killing Faith is a challenge, and it sends a message to the Angel Investigations gang.

If killing someone is just lunch and accomplishes nothing else, I'd say Angelus would rather belly up to the bar and order a glass of O-Neg with his fawning fans.

[> Excellent post! -- ponygirl, 10:50:16 03/13/03 Thu

[> [> Re: Excellent post! -- Thanks, guys! You�re all peaches! ;), 11:12:21 03/13/03 Thu

I could have checked for typos though...

[> [> [> Thanks, guys! You�re all peaches! ;) -- grifter, 11:15:44 03/13/03 Thu

Wrote the "Subject" line into the "Name" box. The sad thing is that, no, I�m not drunk. ;)

[> Love this! Thanks for posting it! -- Deeva, 16:23:26 03/13/03 Thu

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