March 2003 posts
'Storyteller'
Revisited (with episode spoilers, natch) -- Darby, 10:50:15
03/11/03 Tue
The Masterpiece Theatre opening - interesting that there
are two separate bits of Star Wars stuff (mounted comic
and original art). Maybe three - it's hard to see what the open
comic is, although the title suggests 60s - 80s Marvel.
So he sucks on the pipe and coughs, cute bit. But it's a fantasy
sequence! Is he fantasizing this tired twist (I like it when Dick
Van Dyke did it, though)? Could be, but it's too silly.
I'm curious who came up with vampires - it wasn't in the
first run-through of the script. There were lots of interesting
changes between script and screen this week...
They're shooting a lot more this season in actual cemeteries (or
their set has gotten WAY bigger). Is it just a production values
thing, spending away those UPN checks? And later, a crane shot!
There was definitely an Andrew reaction, sort of smiley, to Anya's
masturbation line (also not in the shooting script - gee, I wonder
who added it?), but I'm not sure whether it was solidarity at
a shared secret or more of a Beavis reaction to the word.
Somebody check - there's always a sound effect in the credit sequence,
is it always in the same bar?
Can anybody out there actually twirl a stake? How many takes does
a stake trick take when the stake on the set isn't fake?
Could there be any significance to whether the Andrew cam shots
are in REC or PLAY mode? Some times it only makes sense one way,
but the other times...
When Andrew talks to the camera in the basement, who's panning
the thing? Close-ups, okay, remote, but sideways, you need someone
to do that. Breaks the image of the lone auteur.
Who coined the term "Ubervamp"?
Andrew's Big Board Bringers are kind of...cute.
Is it significant that Andrew points out that the Bringers are
"blind people"?
Process question - which do you find more distracting in a breakfast
scene, pointedly generic products or obvious product placement?
And for yet another episode we get "heart," and this
time it's directly connected back to Xander. You'd think, though,
that instead of being all modestly surprised, he'd take the opportunity
to mention his role in Primeval. Guess they didn't want
to make the connection too obvious.
Another cute moment at the expense of the episode premise - Andrew
asks the "gentle viewers" about Jonathan's cuteness,
but he's been telling a story into the camera - the viewers wouldn't
have seen anything but Andrew's face.
Ohhh, I get it now - in his first flashback, Andrew usurped Warren's
position as Science Guy, and in his second, it was Jonathan's
role as Magic Guy. He has co-opted the cool stuff that they could
do. And, of course, in his fantasies, he was better at it than
they were. And eventually, his actual skill as demon wrangler
becomes critical.
I'm sorry, but at least they cast Marcie with an actress who might
not be noticed. "Shy girl" was too pretty for nobody
to notice. It would have been funnier if they had used the girl
that was supposed to have been Dawn's friend, though, who has
since faded away from the show...
Is Buffy so incompetent that she would ask students to give another
student a foot rub? In the hallway? Another example of dipping
a bit too low for the funny. It worked better in the script, where
in context it's a throwaway line and not so much an actual suggestion.
And the follow-up line, after the explosion, was I hate to
say it. But I think that was the sound of an exploding freshman.
Works much better, less cavalier, and I know that as filmed it
bothered people, me included.
There are still healthy plants around the principal's office.
Y'know, if I wanted to know how Key-like Dawn was, I'd take a
trip with her down to the psych ward. I'm surprised she hasn't
done that. Would Drusilla see her in her glowiness?
Is Willow really the type who would keep necking with Andrew filming?
Maybe the continued lack of privacy has made everybody more oblivious.
And it doesn't seem like Kennedy would care.
In the Buffyverse, do the Scoobies have their own specific speaking
style ("You're starting to speak like me."), or was
it just supposed to be teenspeak from Sunnydale?
I don't remember Emma Caulfield ever looking so un-made-up before
as she does during the Andrew interview. But she looks more made
up later, when the conversation continues with Xander.
Buffy explains her vision by "I was awake," not by,
"The guys in the portal gave it to me"?
In the script, Robin almost gives away that he knows Spike killed
his mother, but doesn't. In the filmed ep, he doesn't even come
close.
Pig scene. Spike, take two. When they're good, they're pretty
doggone good.
The Xander-Anya heart-to-heart (heh) was set up very differently
in the shooting script. The choice to have it as almost all playback,
with Andrew mouthing only Anya's part (thanks to whoever here
noticed that) gives it a great additional layer. I do prefer the
original words, though, which play with truer emotion.
I'd be happier if the students drawn to the Seal for mutilation
and Slayer kickage had been shown as nasty or violent earlier.
Not that they would deserve...never mind.
So why was the Cheese Guy (from Willow's sequence) in the
dream? Along with all of that Ubervamp stuff that hadn't happened
yet??? If the First can see the future, why's it bothering?
I guess I was the only one who didn't think that a big honkin'
crystal was a "charm"...
I liked the bit of exposition in the script about how the dreams
were a way for the First to get Jonathan to return to Sunnydale,
but can understand why it got jettisoned.
Wow, a fantasy ("We are as Gods!") embedded in a fantasy
flashback!
There's a funny bit in the script during Hellmouth Student Night
about the Swing Chorus and the Marching Band...
If it isn't some SoCal rock band, it may be significant that "NO
ONE" is scrawled very prominently across the basement entrance
(and NO is one of the most legible non-school-group graffitis
elsewhere).
I suspect that the various versions of the Jonathan death scene
that we viewers had actually witnessed are supposed to get us
wondering about the trustworthiness of the stories across the
entire breadth of the show. It seems to be working, if recent
posts here are any indication.
The kids-converted-to-Bringers seem to have new wounds where their
eyes were, but no implements to accomplish this were there - they
certainly didn't use any as weapons. Maybe the conversion (and
reversion later, one hopes) is purely magical.
From the beginning of the Anya-Xander basement scene, Anya seems
much more obviously in RealizationLand than Xander. Could she
be realizing that sex as a human is different not because humans
are different, but due to the emotional connection she had, but
doesn't still have, with Xander?
Not so convinced about Xander, though.
Fascinating that the board-with-nails in it was in the shooting
script so that Robin could swing the nails (non-lethal) at Spike,
but the action changed to a barely-averted staking. That's quite
a change. The board would have merely gotten Spike's attention,
very different from a stake in the back.
When Buffy pulls out the knife and Andrew sets his camera down
- is he figuring to record his murder or his redemption (as he
might see it)?
And this...this is what Jonathan felt. Once more, there
is an element of empathy in the Buffyverse equation of Good and
Evil. Do we defeat the First by sympathizing with it?
The twist of, "What would you have done if the tears hadn't
worked?" was better in the filmed version, with no answer.
Of course, now we have more questions that maybe won't be answered.
Is the Seal closed permanently, or just waiting for another murderous
act? Is it really plugging the Hellmouth? Will the school be all
recovered when next we see it? How many students were lost? Where
were the First's manifestations this time, wouldn't it have made
sense to be more directly involved? Was it involved at all, or
did the Seal / Hellmouth become more of an independent agent of
Chaos? Will Buffy ever stop talking? Will we see the camera again,
or was this a one-episode only thing? Is it Andrew's turn to become
set dressing now? Is anyone still reading? Stopping now.
- Darby, who always starts these things sure that everything has
been covered, and then becomes surprised at the crumbs strewn
behind.
[> Re: No one -- CW,
15:52:54 03/11/03 Tue
I got the feeling that with all the replays of bad things that
had happened in the school, a few from outside the high school
setting had crept in. I can't name any others at the moments,
but I thought the words "no one" were a kind of bridge
between the lost kids in "Anne" and the kids who were
becoming bringers in the basement. But, I feel on very shaky ground
with that.
Over all I wasn't disturbed by the inconsistancies between the
video and Andrew's fantasies. I figure the video mostly is how
Andrew sees it, not how it was taped. I also think the coughing
with the pipe was a nice touch. It's kind of a case of Andrew's
mind racing in two directions at once. -Andrew's train of thought
1 "Well, off course, in this scene I'd be smoking a pipe.
I'll look cool." Andrew's train of thought 2 "Well,
I don't really like the smell of tobacco smoke. I hope it doesn't
make me gag."
[> Nice! Do you know the
answer to my question? -- WickedBuffy, 20:03:50 03/11/03
Tue
Nice post, Darby - I wonder some of those things myself. Usually
within a 20 second timespan. You?
Mostly, I was wondering whythe Bringers are blind? (I'm sure it's
already been covered previously.) What's the symbolism?
[> [> I wonder --
Darby, 05:10:39 03/12/03 Wed
None are so blind as those who will not see keeps coming
to mind, and I tend to think that it's very connected to how the
First must be fought.
The thing is, the Bringers' mutilated eyes were just part of their
design (from the script: Finally, a face. A face with no eyes
-- just folds of skin with runic symbols burned into them)
in Amends, so whatever reasoning or metaphor that represents
is somehow wrapped up in that plot, even if it has shifted a bit
to be used some other way this season.
Actually, having read the description, is it possible that the
eyes are covered with removable flaps, allowing Bringers
to pass in the general populace? And whose skin are the symbols
burned into? What does it do for them, or to them?
Angelus and
vampire psychology -- Gyrus, 12:08:26 03/11/03 Tue
Scroll's post about Spike's origins as William got me to thinking:
Most vampires on BTVS and AtS are influenced, in one way or another,
by the personalities of the people they used to be. Sometimes,
the vampire's character remains much like the human one (ex. Harmony,
Darla); other vampires seem to consciously rebel against their
human selves and attempt to develop a persona that is the opposite
of what they were (ex. Spike, VampWillow).
Angelus, however, doesn't seem to have followed either of these
paths. Liam wasn't a particularly good or bad guy, but Angelus
is as evil as they come. Also, Angelus is at times as boorish
as Liam, but he also values artistry and skill (at least, in terms
of causing pain and death). In short, Angelus does not resemble
Liam, but he's not really the opposite of Liam, either.
So how does Liam + demon = Angelus?
[> Some thoughts on Angel
(spoilers for all aired eps) -- Scroll, 13:53:05 03/11/03
Tue
I'm not sure I can answer your question, Gyrus, but I thought
I'd try to separate the different incarnations of Angel(us) we've
seen so far.
Liam, age 17: In "Spin the Bottle" we see a slightly
rebellious teenaged boy. Liam isn't evil or even a lout. He's
just a kid with a hypocritical and maybe even tyrannical father.
Liam's father is very Catholic, always telling him what he can
or cannot do, warning him about sin, but Liam knows his father
wasn't always a saint. He doesn't understand why his father comes
down so hard on him. When the Fang Gang turns on Liam for being
a vampire, he gets resentful and angry. Can we assume Liam reacted
the same to his father?
Liam, age 26: Leaves his father's house, gets drunk a lot,
gets turned by a pretty lady he meets in an alley. Liam here may
be boorish, a drunkard, and a disappointment to his parents, but
I don't see anything here that justifies some comments I've read
about how Liam was "more evil than William". Liam was
kind of a loser, sure, but William was no great prize either.
(Must keep chanting "Spike does not negate Angel. Angel does
not negate Spike.") Liam seemed quite close to his little
sister, and she apparently adored him.
Angelus, the fledge: After rising from his grave, Angelus
eats a cemetery worker, goes home to confront his dad, kills him,
and is told by Darla that Angelus has lost because now he'll never
get his father's approval. Angelus then goes on to massacre most
of Galway. In reaction to losing to his father? Acting out of
anger? Or wanting to impress his new parental figure, Darla?
Angelus meets the Master, acts like the typical "young stallion"
before an authority figure, but manages to win Darla in the end.
Very Oedipal. Darla and Angelus go off to wreak some havoc.
Angelus, the Scourge of Europe: Angelus surpasses even
Darla in killing, torture, and bloody mayhem. The Master apparently
changes his mind about Darla's boy and considers Angelus a vampire
worthy of "sitting at his right hand come the day".
Angel, the Soul Boy: Angelus gets a soul, goes a little
insane, tries to hook up with Darla again but realises he can't
live like a vampire anymore. Saves a baby and leaves his vamp
clan behind.
Angel, the Wanderer: Angel wanders around the world for
a century. Goes to America, makes a few attempts to integrate
into human society but doesn't make much headway. We only see
him once in 1952, trying to help a woman who later betrays him.
Disillusioned, he turns his back on the Hyperion hotel and lets
the demon have it. Don't know if this has to do with resentment
so much as cynicism. Are the two feelings related?
Whistler finds him in Manhatten, dusts him off and gives him an
opportunity to become somebody.
Angel, the Cryptic Guy: Angel meets Buffy, helps fight
bad guys, save the world, etc. Sleeps with Buffy, feels perfect
happiness, loses soul.
Angelus, V 2.0: Angelus resents Buffy for making him feel
human. Wants to make her suffer for his pain. Vengeance, havoc,
vengeance. Gets soul back, gets sucked into hell.
Angel, V 2.0: Angel realises he can't be with Buffy anymore,
develops his own mission. Goes to L.A. to help people. Does okay
for a while, until Darla returns as a human. Angel tries to save
her, almost succeeds but Lindsey has Drusilla vamp Darla once
again.
Angel, the Beige Period: Angel is most like Liam here in
that he doesn't do evil like Angelus (killing innocent people)
but he isn't like good Angel who believes everybody (even W&H lawyers)
can be redeemed. Angel/Liam resents the hell out of W&H for messing
up his life, and he does everything he can to take them down.
He ignores Cordy's vision so he can focus on his own goals: 1)
taking out Darla and Dru, 2) taking out W&H.
Angel, the Epiphanied version: Angel decides to do good
not because of some great reward or because it's his destiny,
but because he empathises with people and doesn't think people
should have to suffer. Some slip-ups here and there, but Angel
mostly stays on this path until he decides Angelus is needed.
Angel gives up his soul in hopes Angelus has necessary information
on the Beast.
Angelus, V 2.5: This Angelus is most like flashback Angelus.
This is the Scourge of Europe, not the Sunnydale Angelus. He wants
to have fun, he wants to tear people up for the fun of it. No
resentment, no anger here. Just fun and sadism.
So maybe the Angelus we get really depends on the circumstances.
When he was first turned, Angelus was still very much Liam, and
very resentful of his dad. Wanted to prove he had the power. But
as years passed, he "mellowed", I guess is the best
term. He ended up killing for pleasure, also to show he had the
power, but never as a means-to-an-end. Angelus didn't kill just
to kill, but to enjoy the fear and pain his victims felt. In L.A.,
Angelus didn't antagonise the Fang Gang just to increase his chances
of escaping (though I'm sure that was a factor) but because he
enjoyed watching them all implode.
Hope this helps. Don't know if I actually answered your question.
[> [> Perhaps as an art
student -- AngelVSangelus, 14:38:15 03/11/03 Tue
I find it important to also note that Angelus' artistic penchant
for sadistic torment may itself be another form of rebellion against
his father. I've always assumed his dad condemned his true passions,
assuming them to be artistic just from the drawings we've seen
Angel/Angelus render in the past with pencil or charcoal. Not
bad for a bloke with no formal training.
[> [> One nitpick
-- Masq, 15:20:00 03/11/03 Tue
Angelus, the fledge: After rising from his grave, Angelus eats
a cemetery worker, goes home to confront his dad, kills him, and
is told by Darla that Angelus has lost because now he'll never
get his father's approval. Angelus then goes on to massacre most
of Galway. In reaction to losing to his father? Acting out of
anger? Or wanting to impress his new parental figure, Darla?
I think it's clear from the dialogue that Angelus had already
started feasting on much of Galway before he came home and ate
his family. Not sure what that means as far as the murders getting
back at Dad. Perhaps Liam wanted to strike fear in his family
first and kill them last, which still pretty much jives with the
daddy-issues theorem, but not the "Now I can never have Daddy's
approval" theorem.
Cut to Angel's father nailing up his window from the inside.
Angel: "You're no different from the rest of them, - are
you, father? (His father spins around and stares at him) Cowering
in their houses - boarding up the windows - smearing that foul
herb in the doorways. You'd think something evil - and vile -
and monstrous - had taken to terrorizing this village -and everyone
in it."
Dad: "Be gone, unclean thing! A demon can not enter a home
where it's not welcome. He must be invited!"
Quotes from Psyche
[> [> [> Thanks, I'd
forgotten that -- Scroll, 15:34:24 03/11/03 Tue
[> [> 'The Beige Period'
-- lunasea, 19:27:40 03/11/03 Tue
I laughed so hard it hurts. Thanks.
Key to understanding Angel/Angelus is heart. They have certain
drives. Factor in caring and you get Angel. Take it out and you
get Angelus. Angelus lashes out because of who Liam was. Angel
reaches out because he can't lash out. Liam creates the needs
and drives. What we once were informs all that we have become.
Angelus 2.5 is dissociative as is Angel post Pylea. That is pretty
important also.
[> 99 bottles of ale on
the wall, 99 bottles of ale.... take one down, pass -- WickedBuffy,
19:52:48 03/11/03 Tue
I always thought Liam was as you said - a boor, a drunk, fairly
shiftless and unmotivated, feeling powerless, giving up guy with
a need to rebel against his father.
When Darla vamped him and he hooked up with her, she was nearly
working with a "neutral" sided creature who might have
gone regular demon evil. But, it was Darla who took him under
her wing - she was his first vamp role model. What a role model!
Added that into his anger with his father, it shifted the balance
towards evil. And, he finally had power - power and now the demon
energy to motivate him to destroy his father. And show the entire
world he was no one to trifle with - no longer a drunk joke or
town ne-er do well. He could be the man that every father feared.
Just like a childs early influences and environment do much in
shaping that childs personality, etc later in life, so did Angelus
the new vamp, with Darla's cruel infuences, become much more than
what he was as a man.
To be cleverer and more powerful than any man became a driving
force. Each cruel act feed his evil and grew from that. To show
he was better, smarter and more important than his father or any
father. In a twisted way, he was also showing his father that
he could be and WAS someone of great importance and power - not
just a lazy, useless drunk of a son.
There are important motivations that lead someone to drink. Liam
already had "demons" inside him. Whether drinking numbed
him from feeling his anger and hate and hurt or simply made him
forget it, is a vital piece. Those would be important to consider
when figuring why Liam + demon = Angelus.
It just seems an important component to consider when figuring
Liam out. The reasons he drank could be an important part of the
drive that helped create Angelus. If we don't really know who
Liam was, it would be hard to define his opposite.
[> [> Then do you think...
-- Gyrus, 20:30:39 03/11/03 Tue
...Angel's need to be a good father to Connor also stems from
the desire to be better than his own father?
[> [> [> ayup that
makes sense! -- WickedBuffy, 20:36:12 03/11/03 Tue
Yes, I do! (and hadn't thought of that aspect, thanks)
He wants to prove his dad wrong about him - as Angel it comes
out in healthier, helpful ways like fathering and helping people.
But as Angelus the same motivation comes out another way - evil,
manipulative and cocky.
[> Maybe it's about the
Sire as well... -- yabyumpan, 00:26:25 03/12/03 Wed
Just a passing, not very well thought out idea...
The Vampire who Sires a human is often thought of as a parent
figure. As humans, our psychology is greatly influenced by our
parents and their treatment/attitude informs much of who we become.
I think it may well be the same for Vampires. I'll just go though
your list:
Harmony - Vamped on Graduation Day, her Sire probably ended the
day as a pile of dust so Harmony had no one to 'learn' how to
be a Vampire from. Consequently, she pretty much remained exactly
the same as she was when she was human.
Darla - Sired by The Master, who it would appear had been keeping
an eye on her. I would guess that he chose her because of certain
qualities i.e. her sexuality, her cunning maybe. As a Vampire
i would imagin that those were the qualities he encouraged her
to emphasise and use.
Spike - Chosen by Drucilla, who had been driven mad before by
Angelus before being Vamped, to be her "best and bravest
knight in all the land". Although drawn, I think, to William's
sensitivity, she was/is a sado-masochist(sp) and would have encouraged
his bravado and aggression.
Angelus - Sired by Darla after she spoted him brawling in a bar.
She then set about training him; encouraging to eat his whole
village, including his family, then placing doubt in his mind
saying that he could never truely win against his Father now he
had killed him. This led him to greater and more creative acts
of violence and cruelty, to prove himself to both Darla and (in
his mind) his Father. It was Darla who found Drucilla for him
and encouraged him to not just go for the kill but to use her
psychic abilities to drive her insane. Darla encouraged and taught
Angelus untill he out did even her.
So in summery i would say that Vampire psychology is - Human +
Demon + Sire = Vampire
[> Angelus is more Liam's
'opposite' than you'd think -- Kitkat, 01:26:20 03/12/03
Wed
Liam is a slacker type, with no direction at the age of 26, spending
his type drinking, gambling and whoring. I would imagine that
a lot of this comes from frustrated ambitions - perhaps he wanted
to be an artist but wasn't allowed, forced to follow in his father's
mercantile footsteps? He is also living 'down' to his parent's
expectations ... my parents put a lot of pressure on my younger
brother to do well in school and go to a good uni, and in rebellion
he hardly does any work and spends lots of time in the pub or
with his girlfriend and he smokes and dabbles in drugs and so
on. I think its the same thing as with Liam. When he becomes a
demon Liam can really NEVER be good enough for his father, and
he won't have to try or feel guilty for it any more.
Angelus is different to Liam - when he comes in to kill his father
he is dressed completely differently - richly and neatly as opposed
to the mess he looked before. Part of that is obviously that now
he can have whatever fancy outfit he wants, but it also seems
to me that becoming a vampire matures him somehow? And when he
is older he is responsible, as opposed to irresponsible Liam,
looking after his 'family', the father figure and disciplinarian
-exactly what Liam was rebelling against, e.g. confronting Spike
over being reckless and getting them stuck in the mine. He is
also cultured as a vampire - he went to see the ballet which made
him cry, he apparently hung out with the Impressionists in Paris
- the part in 'She' when he talks about the Monet painting and
Baudelaire's poem about the 'real vampire', and tells the crowd
that the poet was 'a little taller and a lot drunker' than he
is shown in the painting. So Angelus is interested in 'high' culture
where Liam just liked to get drunk.
Of course, here is where the ambiguities come into the issue.
Liam evidently had some innate artistic skill himself, so perhaps
the fact that, once he is freed from society's restrictions, Angelus
chooses to mix with artistic circles is him fulfilling desires
he had as a human. And similarly, his occasionally boorish behaviour
as Angelus is him slipping back to his human behaviour.
So, it seems that a vampire can never really escape what they
were as a human. Perhaps this is why vampires are looked down
upon by other demons (unless they reach legendary status like
Angelus) because they are more a hybrid than a pure demon? (I'm
sure this was discussed at some point on the show?) And also,
I think that the spark of humanity in the vampire is what makes
them all the more dangerous - a vampire is a human with no conscience
or morals and super strength - and we all know what sort of things
humans will do to each other with a conscience, yet alone when
it is removed.
From Beneath
them it devoured Me :-) (spoiler up to Storyteller) -- lunasea,
19:05:44 03/11/03 Tue
From beneath you it devours. Who remembers how ominous this sounded
when we first heard it? This is one season that is going to be
much better when seen in those marathon sessions that we die-hard
(read insane) fans have been known to do. This season really is
written for us. How many newbies remotely got "Conversations
with Dead People?" The "Previously Seen on Buffy the
Vampire Slayer Scenes" are used more to remind us what happened
and tease the hell out of us than it is to let people who don't
follow the show what happened. A few seconds of a season's old
scene really can't do that.
What if Angel does show up? How the hairy heck can Angel/Buffy
be remotely encapsulated in a few minutes? What about Spike/Buffy?
Without S6, the tension that is going on there makes no sense.
Without S5, it makes no sense why Buffy would even trust Spike.
Without S4, the change in Spike doesn't seem so remarkable. This
season is for us. As such, it is using us against ourselves.
In Season two it made me fall in love with Angel right along with
Buffy. (if you didn't, you didn't. Individuals vary. They can't
please all of the people all of the time.) Then when he lost his
soul in such a beautiful moment, I felt Buffy's loss with her.
I lost him every bit as much as she did. To keep us reeled in,
they gave us another delicious character in his place, Angelus.
When he went to hell, I lost both Angelus and Angel. It was sheer
anguish, not only on Buffy's part, but mine. To top that off,
I had to wait all summer long to find out if/how he would get
back. This was the Buffyverse. Things could happen. Seeing his
name in those opening credits at the beginning of "Anne"
was pure ecstasy. Then we get short, but sweet dream sequences.
What were they doing playing with me like that?!? When he actually
came back, my emotions were about as frayed as Buffy's. I was
preparing and ready for him not to actually come back. When he
came back, I was both elated to see him and worried about what
this meant. I was getting tired to being jerked around by ME when
it came to Angel, but at the same time I loved him. I WAS Buffy.
I am sure that many here has something like the above which not
only got you to empathize with or understand a character, but
really got you to be that character (and please share). I am probably
so drawn to Angel because ME, IMNSHO, used him better than any
other device to really hook me. He fascinates me because ME has
taken a lot of care to see that he does. Oz is another good example.
I fell in love with Oz as Willow did. I can say very easily why
Buffy loves Angel and Willow loves Oz. It is the same reason I
do.
This season, they are using us a new way. "From beneath you
it devours." In the season premier, Willow talks about how
she saw the teeth of the Hellmouth and how it is going to swallow
them all. She continues this in the next episode "Beneath
You." We open with Buffy dreaming about a potential being
murdered and her last message is "From beneath you it devours."
When Buffy wakes up with that dream she tells Dawn, " 'From
beneath you, it devours.' That's all she could say. And then they
...There's more like her, Dawn. Somewhere. Out there." We
have a warning and something the big evil is up to. Let the speculation
begin. We are so used to the mundane issues playing out in metaphors
that we are looking for those. I have seen this phrase analyzed
from both what it means symbolically and what it means psychologically.
We have been watching the show long enough to "know"
that ME will ultimately take us somewhere that we didn't even
think about. Still, we have 6 + 3 seasons of their work. They
aren't a completely blank book. Part of us thinks we can figure
this out. Maybe the "average" fan can't, but I am not
the average fan. Afterall, I figured out that the big bad was
the First in "Lessons." It really wasn't that hard.
Maybe I have figured it out.
It is quite obvious this season that the writers are reading the
net. I am still waiting for them to make some reference on either
show to spoiler whores (I would love for it to be tied to Drew's
kissing offer). Angel's reaction to "the chatty rooms"
was priceless. You had to love Willow "Googling" Cassie
and Xander's reaction. Cassie even had an actual web page. They
know not only what the fans think, but to some degree how. After
6 years of manipulating us, they have gotten pretty good at it.
Ever since "Sleeper" the "big" issue people
wanted to know about was "Was Giles really dead." In
the Buffyverse, death doesn't mean you won't appear. What would
happen if Giles was dead. We already knew he was going to be in
more shows. How would he appear? As a benevolent force or a malevolent
one. If the Big Bad really was the First, the horrors he could
inflict as a fake Giles. Our hero would be reduced to an amorphous
blob of blubber.
There still was some doubt about who the big bad was, so after
possibly killing off Giles, they answered it for us. It *was*
the First. Die-hard fans who predicted this everyone did the dance
of superiority. No wonder FX held back "Amends." Now
the speculation about Giles kicked up a notch, especially with
no Giles in the episode.
Next step was to give us back Giles and some of those girls that
Buffy had dreamt about. Now the question was "Was this *really*
Giles. He didn't act like Giles. We watched intently to see if
he touched anything. He didn't. Grrrrrr. Two more episodes and
still we didn't know if it was the real Giles or not. Some were
getting tired of it. It wouldn't be so bad if we saw them all
together, only 7.8 - 7.13 are about this. It was a pain when 7.8
was shown on November 19th and 7.13 wasn't shown until the beginning
of February.
Still this was the main topic of conversation on most boards.
That and the new-improved Buffy. Some loved her and some hated
the speeches, but everyone had an opinion about her. Was she doing
the right thing? Was she being unfair?
What got lost in all that? "From beneath you it devours."
It was the Fulcrum for Act 1 this season. Last time we heard it
was "Conversations with Dead People." "It eats
you starting at your bottom." Who didn't laugh at that? It
is the last words of that episode. After the First has revealed
who it is to Willow and gives her its "anti-pep" talk,
Willow rephrases it all as "From beneath you it devours."
The First says "Not it. Me"
So what is the First? The plot points about Giles are a nice diversion
the writers gave to keep the boards occupied (read not talking
about what actually matters). I'll admit, when Giles turned out
not to be the First or even dead, I did not only the dance of
joy, but the dance of superiority (inside anyway, well actually
in my living room, too, but not on the boards). *I* wasn't sidetracked
but such trivial matters. This has been a pretty good season for
that dance. Let the average fans talk about silly things. I have
more important things to be focused on.
Buffy rallies the troops in "Bring on the Night." Yeah!!!,
the average fan cries. I go yuck from minute one. Five episodes
later, we learn how yuck that is. Lots of dancing at my house.
Come on people. Buffy is all about heart. That was an obvious
misdirect from the beginning. Give the fans what they want to
show them why they really don't want it.
ME has got me feeling pretty good about my analytical abiliities.
I haven't fallen for one misdirect yet. The season hasn't been
surprising, but I have enjoyed it. It is fun watching my predictions
unfold. It is amusing to see people go off on the wrong path on
the board. Silly people. Occassionally there is another soul or
two that do get it.
"From beneath you it devours." We get a glimpse of it
again in "Storytellers." It is in Spanish (Desde abajo
te devora.), so only us dedicated fans can pick it up. We are
the ones worthy of getting the subtle references that ME makes.
There are plenty of cool references like this for us. We are ME's
chosen people. There is even a better group. Those who watch both
shows. For us, super-chosen people, there are even more references.
Aren't we special? And those on the net. ME really does listen
to us. Every net reference made me squeal inside. They actually
read what *I* write. WOW!!!
"From beneath you it devours." I have read various essays
about what this means. Some have nice psychology behind them and
some are really good advice. They are pretty much all well thought
out and well written. Any of their messages would be beneficial.
I have read things about fear and developing self-confidence.
I have read things about knowing yourself and being comfortable
with that. I have read things about balancing light and dark.
These essays have been well supported by evidence from this and
other seasons.
Maybe it could mean any of those things. Maybe after eating all
those psych text books last year, the writers are just giving
us a "Find and feel good about yourself" finale. I don't
think so. I like what Marti said:
I think that he [Joss] does feel like it's sort of a meaningless
void, and what matters is the struggle to find the good. And the
relationships you build with people while you struggle. And in
some ways you'll never find it, but the quest and the questors,
and the people that you find, who are not necessarily your family,
are the only thing that lends the journey meaning. I think that
is his major theme.
It is the filler episodes that really let us know what the theme
of a season is. One of the biggest fillers was "Him"
(which is on tonight). I liked the episode. Until "Storyteller"
it contained the funniest moment of the season (and that even
involved Spike). It is about how a love spell affects the group.
In it we really see the function of each member.
In a recent interview, Jane was talking about the story meeting
for reintroducing the WKCS
We broke the story, the return of [WKCS], and we had this big
mystery that [the Scoobies] had to solve. Joss came in and took
all the mystery out and made the story very simple and minimal
and made it all about how dropping [WKCS] into the mixture of
people affects every single person. It's so much better!
That is what this season is about. A mystery? What were they thinking?
Naughty Marti for letting it go that far. K.I.S.S. It is about
"the relationships you build with people...are the only thing
that lends the journey meaning." What is Buffy's relationship
with people? She thinks she is above them. "From beneath
you it devours." Buffy's feelings of superiority are eating
her up.
This is the point where the entire board should be laughing. ME
took me on quite a ride with Angel. Now they are doing the same
thing. With every twist I forsee, I become Buffy. Go ahead laugh
at my expense. I can show you the dance of superiority if you
want.
Why does she give all those speeches? Because she thinks those
around her need them. She is better than them because she doesn't
have to be motivated like that. They need her to kick them in
the rear and shock them into reality. They can't see things without
her. They don't know what to do without her. With every word,
she is eaten a little more.
Why does this eat her up? What is eating her up. According to
CwDP "Not it. Me." said by the First. Figure out why
this eats Buffy up, and we have what the First is. With every
word, Buffy sets herself a little bit above the girls, above the
Scoobies. Above is separate.As I said in another long essay, the
First is disconnection, ignorance that leads to our separation
from oneness. It uses fear and all the things other essays are
about. That isn't what it is though. See the First as evil, and
It will be missed. It isn't evil. It is the SOURCE of evil.
[> Lessons -- lunasea,
19:07:22 03/11/03 Tue
7.1 "Lessons." Opens with dream of potential bein murdered
(which probably happens because Buffy is connected to them through
the Slayer line). Buffy and Dawn are seriously connecting. Yeah
Buffy!!!! Nice follow-up to "Grave." Willow sees that
everything (except her) is connected. Nice interaction between
Willow and Giles. Nice interaction between Xander and Buffy. Better
yet, nice references to past shows for us die-hard fans. There
are a lot of them this season, a whole lot.
The Manifest Spirits try to play on Buffy's connection to her
sister and her slayer responsibility. They play on how disconnected
the three kids are from the student body (same thing with Dawn's
daydreams). When Kit says that everyone dies here, Dawn's reaction
was great "And here I was worried about not fitting in."
It is easy to say that the kids were lost in the basement, hence
that they couldn't find themselves. It wasn't themselves they
needed to find. It was the way back to the rest of the school.
Because they were lost, they couldn't reconnect back to the student
body.
Hallie plays on Anya's sense of disconnection from the demon vengeance
community. It was done perfectly in a short sweet scene. ANYA:
So, is this an intervention? Shouldn't all my demon friends be
here? HALLIE:Sweetie, they are. The entire episode revolves around
connection. The writers should keep this in mind if they don't
want their storyboards wiped.
There is one thing that is seriously bothering me this season.
I know it is supposed to bother me, but that doesn't make it not
bother me. The way Buffy talks about Angel and just lumps him
together with Spike as another vampire boyfriend. Talk about nails
on a blackboard. In "Lessons" she boils them down to
"hotties." It wasn't about the connection they had.
It was about how gorgeous he is (and he is, but that isn't the
point with either of them).
Final act in "Lessons" is for Spike. I think it is hysterical
that the writers didn't know what to do with him, so they left
him in the basement for a while. Act 1 of the Season, set up that
the Scoobies do have a special connection. Where does that leave
Spike? Act 2, disconnect them. Again, what is Spike's roll? Let
the First torture him for a while. It is fun and entertaining
for the whole family. Act 3 is about rebuilding those connections.
THAT is where Spike factors in.
Back to Spike. Poor Spike. All he wants is that connection, but
he and Buffy just don't have it. It isn't his time yet. Buffy
shows concern, but her priority is Dawn, the one she has a connection
with. Spike is trying to connect with Buffy, but is interrupted
by Dawn's phone call. Buffy offers Spike a chance to reconnect
with the world, but he isn't ready yet and he stays behind. Poor
Spike (and I am not being sarcastic. I genuinely feel for him.
I just don't like him)
My favorite part of the episode was how the connections between
the Scoobies saved the day. That connection, the cell phones.
Dawn calls Buffy. Buffy calls Xander. It took all three of them.
Dawn found the problem (well it found her). Spike told her what
it was. Buffy stalled it. Xander solved it. Buffy's weapon comes
from Carlos' bricks, Kit's bag and is Dawn's idea. Lots of working
together. I also loved how the Spirit's lines are turned on them.
Why does Buffy get the counselor job? Supposedly because she got
the delinquents to connect. So we go back to poor Spike. He wants
understanding. That is how we connect to others. When they understand
us, we feel something between us. Without that understanding,
we are connecting to images, rather than actual people.
Joss is truly the master and I bow at his feet. Heck. Can I just
sit next to him and maybe get him a cup of coffee every now and
then?
[> [> Anya and Hallie
-- Scroll, 22:08:25 03/11/03 Tue
Hallie plays on Anya's sense of disconnection from the demon
vengeance community. It was done perfectly in a short sweet scene.
ANYA: So, is this an intervention? Shouldn't all my demon friends
be here? HALLIE:Sweetie, they are.
I like how Anya asks if this is an intervention because in "Selfless",
when Xander confronts her at the frat house, she asks if this
is an intervention. Seems to me Anya's been hoping to get one.
She wants her friends to intervene and help her out. I'm glad
Xander manages to do so, though of course from Anya's POV, it's
too late.
And I wish Hallie didn't have to die. It made Anya terrifically
sympathetic and sad, so it made creative sense, but I liked Hallie's
way of talking. For a demon, she was kinda nice : )
[> [> [> About Hallie
(spoiler Selfless) -- lunasea, 06:55:06 03/12/03 Wed
I wished Hallie didn't have to die because how awesome would it
have been if she was Cecily? The woman that William gave his heart
to and was heart broken by was such a heartless bitch that she
became a vengeance (excuse me justice) demon. It is such the ME
undercutting that I do miss. That storyline was killed with Hallie.
They even made sure to include a reference so we would know that
Cecily wasn't Hallie (unless Cecily was already a vengeance demon).
[> Beneath You -- lunasea,
19:08:56 03/11/03 Tue
7.2 "Beneath You" opens with another dead potential
and the catch phrase I have already talked about. That phrase
connected the Potential to Buffy and then Buffy telling it to
Dawn connected Buffy and Dawn. Dawn wakes Buffy up from her nightmare.
We get some nice connecting between the two of them again. Two
episodes in a row. Much nicer than S6.
Then we get poor Spike. Alone and disconnected in the basement.
Easy prey for the First. His appeal to his mother was beautiful.
Cut from there to how connected the Scoobies are. Spike's function
Act 1 is to contrast with how connected the Scoobies are. Dawn
and Buffy were really connecting earlier, and now they are still
connecting, but Dawn is also putting limits on that connection.
Perfectly normal for a teen. "You understand you can never
talk to me, look at me, or hang out anywhere near my friends,
right? " In accepting that, Buffy actually is more connected
to Dawn. She respects and understands her feelings. Connection
isn't about physical presence. Great Cordy reference. Same with
Flutie. More bones for us die-hard fans.
Xander is feeling bad about not dating. He wants connection. He
hasn't had that since Anya. Anya is at the Bronze trying to connect
with scorned women and Xander is having trouble connecting since
he broke his connection. Dawn brings up the whole dating demons
thing. It isn't that simple, we die-hard fans know.
I love Buffy's job, to help "troubled" (read disconnected)
kids. Could they have given her a more perfect job? Sure it gets
her back to the high school, but it really shows who she is to
those who think she is just a superhero. Wood tells her her job
is not to evaluate but to listen. He is particularly great at
connecting with kids as we see this season.
We get a change in the edit between the script and the show. They
put Willow and Giles here in the final edit and it comes after
the dog is eaten and Spike shows up in the script. Interesting
edit. Willow is talking all about the hellmouth has teeth and
Giles knows it is how her friends feel about her that is what
is really eathing her up. Giles give her advice about trust yourself
and the boards light up with posts about that.
Next we get all excited that Xander is actually connecting with
a pretty girl who probably isn't a demon, seeing as she reacts
rather strongly when her dog is eaten. We got all set up with
the dream about "From Beneath You" and it turns out
it might be this underground demony thing. Seems a little lame
for so great a set-up, but hey, haven't had a good monster of
the week episode in quite a while.
The Scoobies are getting together and in comes Spike. Enter in
Spike and disconnect starts. They are upset about him being there.
They are upset that Buffy didn't tell them she had seen him. They
accuse her of only letting them in when she wants. Spike tries
to defend Buffy, but lets be real. Buffy tells Spike not to apologize.
At least she didn't say if he did she would beat him to death.
She has grown :-)
I loved the "Everything about you is wrong." Really
echoed Buffy's conversations with Tara and her relationship with
Spike. Now it was Buffy's turn to tell Spike he came back wrong.
Lots of stuff there for us die-hards. "Champion of the people."
Doesn't someone else already have that title? He is trying to
connect, do something, but of course, he has to call her Slayer.
Dawn's relationship to Spike has changed. Now he is even more
isolated. Not even Little Bit likes him. Spike acknowledge that
Buffy and he aren't "best friends" any more. Guess he
doesn't know that is Willow's role. Always has been and always
will be. Poor Spike. He thought the connections he had were more
and he doesn't even have the real ones he used to. They even make
it clear that there is nothing between him and Anya. I have to
admit the way that Nancy put all the relationships together was
hysterical.
Thing is can Spike handle actual connection? He won't tell Buffy
what he has done and he flips out when Anya figure it out. This
is something intensely personal that he doesn't want to share
with anyone. That makes connection pretty damn impossible. Then
he turns on Buffy and starts to taunt her and they fight. Buffy
leaves.
Then Spike goes to help. He uses the Big Bad to connect after
real connection has failed. You really do have to feel for the
guy. Spike has been in touch with the big evil enough to know
the catch phrase. It wasn't just about Ronnie the worm.
The interplay of connection and disconnection throughout the episode
is heightened in the final scene. It is an amazing rewrite.
[> [> Best friends..
-- Helen, 05:46:33 03/12/03 Wed
Not even Little Bit likes him. Spike acknowledge that Buffy
and he aren't "best friends" any more. Guess he doesn't
know that is Willow's role. Always has been and always will be.
Poor Spike.
I think he might have been being a bit ironic somehow. He's perfectly
well aware that he and Buffy aren't friends and never were.
[> STSP and Help --
lunasea, 19:10:23 03/11/03 Tue
7.3 "Same Time Same Place" is about how Willow fears
disconnection, but how connected they really are. Yellow crayon,
more nods to the net community and die hard fans. (yellow is hard
to read on the net and many complain when people use it). If I
do every episode in depth, I will never finish. This one is pretty
obvious. It is about Willow reconnecting. The last scene is my
favorite so far this season.
7.4 "Help." Buffy connects with some girl that she barely
knew and made her last day better than it would have because she
cared about her. The precog also gives two messages. One is for
pathetic Spike who can't think about anything but hurting Buffy.
Forget the thousands of people he murdered. It is all about Buffy.
"She will tell you." Connection. Also Buffy thinks that
she makes a difference by saving people's lives. Cassie shows
us (though not really Buffy) with the simple statement "And
you will." Notice the future tense. The end was very sweet
with Dawn mourning her new friend. Buffy's relationship to this
whole thing, that she failed. She is putting herself above the
situation. What do you do when you can't help? What do you do
when you aren't above things? Lots more connection here.
[> OT to lunasea --
just a friend, 19:12:05 03/11/03 Tue
lunasea, I do enjoy reading all your posts. I think you have wonderful
insight, but do you think you could hold off the number of posts
you put up? I just mean, can you maybe put up 4-5 episodes, let
us discuss, then after a few days put up more episodes? This way
people will be able to develop longer discussions before the thread
is pushed off the board. Just asking : )
[> [> No problem, but
don't expect me to actually finish them then -- lunasea, 06:45:53
03/12/03 Wed
The next day I am usually off on another tangent, so that is why
I tend to reel them all off at once. Also, when I look at a whole
season, I tend to inter-relate the episodes once I find a common
theme. The entire series can be done from the perspective of connection.
It isn't about the individual characters struggle to find themselves,
like most teen dramas so much as it is about the connection between
people.
I really need to do AtS from this perspective. Anyone want to
read that?
[> [> [> No, but thanks.
-- Solitude1056, 07:16:43 03/12/03 Wed
[> Selfless -- lunasea,
19:12:12 03/11/03 Tue
7.5 "Selfless" is actually what got me thinking about
this. This is the episode people rely on most when saying this
season is about finding yourself and feeling inferior. I liked
this episode. The way it ended reminded me of "Bad Girls."
We had a task to deal with, Anya back to her vengeance demon ways.
That task gets dealt with, but in the process, the real problem
is exacerbated. When D'offryn brings up "From beneath you
it devours" again, it reminded me of Balthazar's words, "Slayer!
You think you've won. When he rises... you'll wish I'd killed
you all." Loved the play of beneath you v. the ascension.
But the real problem S3 was the Mayor. A side problem was Faith,
who took a major step to the dark side that episode because "No,
*you* don't get it. I don't care!" The real problem S7 is
the First and disconnection. A side problem is Buffy, who closes
down, stops caring about Anya and feeds her superiority complex.
I am not saying that Buffy herself is going to go bad because
of this. However, the forces around her that result because of
this are going to aid the First.
Selfless is another episode that plays on the connection and disconnection
of the characters. When Willow goes black eyed, she doesn't care
about the girl. There is the whole heart thing throughout the
show. We really find out what drives Anya "The got what they
deserved." Vengeance was her way to connect to scorned women,
which she was. When she realizes this isn't real connection, she
can't do it any more. It isn't just about finding yourself, but
finding ourselves with others that you like. When Hallie talks
to her, she mentions holding ceremonies and how everyone is so
proud and happy that old Anyanka is back.
We have a series of flashbacks. In the first, Anya is disconnected
from the village. She is angry that her man is connecting with
other women, so she turns him into something that cannot connect.
D'Hoffryn tells her "We'd like to help you realize your full
self. We'd like you to join us." He offers her connection
just after she tells her how she doesn't connect with the villagers.
He wants her to "help."In helping we connect.
The next one is the Russian Revolution. How connected it Anya
to these people she is "helping?" Not remotely. She
joined up to connect and she isn't. She says that vengeance is
her life, it is what she does. Our lives aren't in what we do.
Compare that to the Slayer. Anya gets not only an identity from
vengeance, but a sense of superiority that sets her apart. When
she talks about communism, "It's common sense, really. I
have better things to worry about. " The last one is about
her connection with Xander, a real connection. It isn't just about
her identity with that connection, but actually having a connection.
"lame-ass-made-up -maiden-name." She didn't have a real
connection before. Now she had a real one. With Mr. Harris. That
connection made her feel real. In those scenes we see a progression,
desire for connection, disconnection, real connection. When she
looses it, she is devistated and goes back to false connection
with demons.
We get the exchange between Buffy and the Scoobies that really
does show her superiority complex. It isn't her superpowers that
make her superior. It is "because I had
to." She does what she has to. She would have done anything
to be with Angel, but she isn't like Xander who doesn't want Anya
killed. She was able to do what had to be done. Xander can't see
clearly because he loves Anya, but Buffy loves Angel just as much
(if not more) and she could see clearly.
It was a hard thing for her to do. People expected her to shut
off her feelings once Angel lost his soul and for her to go kill
him. It took her time, but a 17 year old girl did manage to do
this. She is the Slayer. She isn't allowed feelings. She has to
do what she does. Then they expect her to have feelings and talk
to everyone. She has to be all things to all people at all times.
She delivers pretty well. No one else has to.
[> Him and CwDP -- lunasea,
19:13:42 03/11/03 Tue
7.6 "Him." I loved this one. Great filler. It is all
about how this love spell disrupts the connections in the group
and how those connections ultimately save the day. We also get
to see Buffy's superiority complex. We get Spike out of the basement
and get ready for Act 2. The Spike is connected to the Buffy.
The Buffy is connected to the Xander. Hear the word of the Joss
(hum along if you don't know the words). Therefor Xander gets
stuck with Spike. That's ok, pretty soon they will all be so connected
they are sharing a bathroom. Lots of good stuff here, but like
I said, if I do them all in depth, I will never finish. I am at
7 pages already.
7.7 "Conversations with Dead People." Absolutely an
amazing episode. The way connection/disconnection was used in
this episode was like watching a ballet. Andrew and Jonathan,
being buds. Jonathan talking about still caring about people from
high school. I cried before he was stabbed. The First manipulating
Andrew away from that connection by using Andrews connection with
Warren. The dynamicism was amazing. It was very much an Abraham/Issiac
moment. Abraham was willing to sacrifice his only son, the only
way God's promise to him could be fullfilled because of the strength
of his faith. Andrew was willing to sacrifice Jonathan, his only
friend because of the strength of his lack of faith. That is what
activated the seal. After that, any blood would cause the vending
machine to pop out an Ubervamp. That is why it tooks Andrew's
tears, his reconnection with Jonathan and a symbol of his faith
in that connection.
Dawn and "Joyce" again using connection to create disconnection.
Amazing. The demon trying to keep "Joyce" from talking
to Dawn. Again wonderful. "Mother's milk runs red" could
it get any better?
Then we get Buffy. What a symphony was created from Buffy's problems
connecting with others. First this vampire she barely knew is
trying to connect with her. That was funny. We all want to be
remembered. They start chit-chat, the standard way people connect
now so they don't have to say anything real. Then ME throws the
die-hards a few more bones. "dating some really old guy."
I laughed my ass off (and it is really hard sitting without an
ass). I liked that Scott Hope was gay. Maybe we can hook him up
with Xander if he ever does get "gayed up." "The"
Slayer sent off warning bells for anyone who knows about Faith.
Lots of good stuff in their interaction that will play out later.
Willow and Cassie/Tara. The First, as is It's MO is using connection
to cause disconnection. Again, quite the symphony going on.
The kicker to the whole thing, Spike is feeding again.
[> [> ^ Spoilers for
'Storyteller' in above post ^ -- Scroll, 22:52:41 03/11/03
Tue
[> Have to do the rest later.
Anyone want to do them for me? -- lunasea, 19:15:42 03/11/03
Tue
[> lunasea - tonal issues
-- KdS, 08:12:49 03/12/03 Wed
Dear lunasea
I have the greatest respect for you intellectually as a poster.
Often I find that your articulacy sheds new light on positions
which I had not explored sufficiently and even when I disagree
with you you often spark new ideas in my mind. However I do have
a serious problem with the way you write your posts.
Your more measured pronouncements often seem to be interspersed
with wild, controversial, and unsupported assertions (say that
Spike never showed any affection to Dru, or that William was a
pathetic and contemptible human being, or that Buffy and Angel's
meeting in early S6 was successful) that appear to be designed
solely as provocation to those who disagree with you. Often you
seem to overtly suggest that you are the only enlightened human
being on the board and that all those who disagree with you are
intellectually or spiritually backward.
It is amusing to see people go off on the wrong path on the
board. Silly people. Occassionally there is another soul or two
that do get it.
Charitably I suspect that these are meant to be humourous and
self-parodic, but the frequency and crudity with which they are
expressed can easily be mistaken for genuine arrogance. This is
not a medium in which sarcasm comes over well. Sometimes I think
a lot of trouble could be avoided if HTML included a [joke][/joke]
tag.
Admittedly some of the people on this board go off the deep end
about Spike, and if you look in the archives there has been quite
a bit of good-humoured and not so good-humoured comment about
this. However, your refusal to accept any positive aspects to
any of Spike's personalities (William/Vamp!Spike/Souled!Spike)
heads too far in the other dimension.
Place yourself in the shoes of another person. While I do not
hold the opinions in the paragraph below, they are as justifiable
as any of your more extreme reactions.
I can't see why anyone thinks Angel is good for Buffy. He started
off as a creepy guy who gets an obsession with her while hanging
round her school playground and reinvented her as an incarnation
of purity and a symbol of his redemption, which is never good
for a relationship or the other person. He flatly lied to her
about the darker aspects of his past ("I've never tasted
human blood since [I got souled]") and tried to keep all
the power in their relationship with him. He respected her so
little that he agreed their break up with her mother before he
spoke to her about it, and he left her with a set of neuroses
that messed up her love life for the next four years.
Now of course this is blinkered, partial and unjustifiable, but
if this disturbed you, then you've just walked in a mile in the
shoes of other people on this board when you start denouncing
Spike.
Regards
Phil
Masq or D'Herb or anyone else, if you think this is unjustifiable
then delete it, but I think it needed to be aired
[> [> This wasn't even
about Spike -- lunasea, 09:35:01 03/12/03 Wed
This was about Buffy, her feelings of superiority and how this
disconnects her. I was even sympathetic towards Spike in several
instances. I do feel sorry for the guy. I am supposed to. That
is what pathos does.
I am rarely going to post from just an objective analytical POV.
I did that for a few threads, but what you tend to see is a mixture
of Irrational-fan girl and wannabe-writer girl. These two POVs
inhance each other. The writers are writing to irrational-fan
girl. It is her reactions they are going for. That is what this
essay was about. It isn't an objective analysis of S7. It is showing
how the writers made me into Buffy, AGAIN.
That is why I started with the stuff about Angel. It wasn't about
the ship. It was about how the writers made me fall in love with
Angel, so that when they took him from Buffy and me, I felt it.
I didn't empathize with her. I WAS her. They made me into Angel
this year. I invited people to share similar instances.
The "tone" which you complain about is what Buffy is
showing. The tone is a result of this season. It is how irrational-fan
girl reacts to things. The tone is what this essay was about.
Rather than talk about it, I showed it. (I do learn from ME)
Don't take half of what I saw seriously. It is irrational-fan
girl blowing off steam. Did Mark Twain include little [joke] when
he wrote? Just assume if it is harsh, it is a joke. I have a wicked
sense of humor. There's a reason I love Angelus. Even if I am
serious, assume it is a joke. Laughter actually helps your physical
health. Being disturbed doesn't.
Just to clear things up. 1)I never said that Spike never showed
affection to Dru. That could be easily refuted by The Judge. I
said he never showed what I would consider love and he tended
to show a lot of annoyance with that affection. 2) IMNSHO William
was pretty pathetic. So were most Victorians. (to be honest, so
are most humans in any time period. If this wasn't true, the world
would be different) The episode is titled FOOL for love. Fools
are typically pretty pathetic. Spikes attraction lies in pathos.
We feel sorry for him. For me the big time was in IOHEFY when
Angelus starts turning his eye to Dru right in front of Spike.
Spike hadn't even done anything "good" yet. 3) Buffy
comes back from S6 meeting feeling better. Something happened
there. What do you mean by "successful?"
What do I think happened? They realized that no matter how much
time apart they spend, they would never be able to handle being
around each other. They would always love each other and always
want to be together. They both had to find a way to really get
on with their lives. (as Buffy said "Past") Angel picked
up Buffy's spirits like he did in "Forever" and she
was both comforted and pained by the strong bond they shared (which
is how the shooting script for Forever reads about the end of
their scene together) Buffy might have realized that part of her
was still holding on to a possibility that they could be together
eventually and she let go of that. She had to loose all hope this
season and that was probably one she still had, being with Angel
could make things all better. Same thing on Angel's part. I believe
that this season we will learn not only about that meeting, but
how each has tried to get on with their lives. To me it is about
denial, but we will see.
Is that "successful?"
And stuff said about Angel? It usually makes me laugh. I can't
imagine Joss giving the Angel that some see his own show. I can't
imagine him calling this codependent relationship "true love"
or "star-crossed lovers." The stars are crossed with
Buffy/Angel, not them. Different people see different things.
Disturbs me? Hardly. Amuses the pejebers out of me is more like
it.
If something disturbs you that some person that you haven't even
met and know next to nothing about wrote, the problem isn't what
was said.
[> [> [> The problem
in a nutshell -- dub, 10:02:51 03/12/03 Wed
IMNSHO William was pretty pathetic. So were most Victorians.
(to be honest, so are most humans in any time period. If
this wasn't true, the world would be different) --emphasis
mine
Well, there you have it, the reason that you differ from probably
90% of the other posters on this board.
As always, you're entitled to your opinion. I do take issue, however,
with you referring to yourself as Buddhist. I can't see that anyone
with this attitude could have even a cursory understanding of
that path. Ryuei? Are you out there?
[> [> [> [> I can
answer that. -- Solitude1056, 10:15:41 03/12/03 Wed
But rather than break into a song-and-dance about Buddhists versus
misanthropes, I'd like to take this moment to remind you, my dear
dubdub, about some pertinent advice you've often given the rest
of us over the past two years:
Don't feed it.
[> [> [> [> [>
A timely reminder, Sol. Thanks. -- dub ;o), 10:29:07
03/12/03 Wed
[> [> [> [> So?
-- lunasea, 10:24:56 03/12/03 Wed
I see only certain differences are good.
I am not trying to be like 90% of the other posters. I am not
trying to be like 90% of humanity. I am me and who that isn't
even consistent. If you don't like that, you don't have to read
what I write. Seems simple to me.
As for being Buddhist, you taking issue with it and not being
one is like when the fundamentalist Christians who got upset because
98 Rock put a billboard of the Pope wearing an "I love 98
Rock" t-shirt up when the the Pontiff visited Baltimore.
The diocese had to release a statement that said the Pontiff did
love rock and they thought it was funny. There was nothing wrong
with it.
If another Buddhist (and I used the term because it allows people
to label me and my beliefs) wants to debate it, that is fine.
It has been a while, but debate was part of my practice once upon
a time. Seems to me to be an unskillful use of time, but I do
that a lot.
So now you have me all figured out. Happy?
[> [> [> The problem
in a nutshell -- dub, 10:15:43 03/12/03 Wed
IMNSHO William was pretty pathetic. So were most Victorians.
(to be honest, so are most humans in any time period. If
this wasn't true, the world would be different) --emphasis
mine
Well, there you have it, the reason that you differ from probably
90% of the other posters on this board.
As always, you're entitled to your opinion. I do take issue, however,
with you referring to yourself as Buddhist. I can't see that anyone
with this attitude could have even a cursory understanding of
that path. Ryuei? Are you out there?
[> [> [> [> Huh?
Don't know how this happened... -- ;o), 10:35:56 03/12/03
Wed
[> [> [> [> [>
The post so nice, it happened twice! ;) -- LadyStarlight
(who is obviously in a rhyme-y mood today!), 10:46:38 03/12/03
Wed
...I blame it on the cough medicine.
[> [> [> A note about
posting -- Anneth, 11:07:14 03/12/03 Wed
"If something disturbs you that some person that you haven't
even met and know next to nothing about wrote, the problem isn't
what was said"
In a community such as this, each member is defined by what he
or she writes. That being the case, when someone gets upset about
something you wrote, the problem IS what was said. It's not fair
to lambast other posters for operating off assumptions gleaned
from your posts - that's the point of a posting community. We
are our opinons here. It's absurd and unfair to imply that if
someone takes issue with one of your opinions, there's something
wrong with his or her personality (or whatever.) You must recall
that the posters on this board take the subject *very* seriously
(even when they're being whimsical about it) and so will take
what you post with the same degree of seriousness that they would
take any other post. If you wish for people to read humor into
a statement, I think you should try to make that more obvious
to your reading audience.
[> [> [> [> It
isn't about taking issue with an opinion -- lunasea, 12:23:05
03/12/03 Wed
It is taking things personally. All we see here is other people's
opinions. I am a heck of a lot more than that. So is every single
person that posts here. We tend to confuse our opinions with ourselves,
in real life. In virtual land, since that is all there is (dits
and dots as my husband says) we really make that mistake. If someone
disagrees with me, great.
BUT if it actually disturbs someone, s/he needs to realize it
is just someone else's opinion and let it slide. It is nothing
to get upset over. Just dits and dots. They can't hurt you.
The content alone should tell people what to take seriously. Does
Jonathan Swift have to say "Now people, this is a [joke]?"
His stuff is so bizarre that it has to be a joke. I even wrote
at one point that the board should be laughing in the essay for
this thread. Should I have made it more obnoxious? Would the point
have come across better then? Come on, BAD SPIKE should be taken
seriously? I give the audience enough credit to say that they
can figure out what to blow off.
I like irrational-fan girl. Just blow her off not as trying to
get to you, but showing how what caused a strong reaction. She
isn't trying to provoke anything. Just illustrate something. Call
her a troll if you want, but that isn't what she is doing. I think
it is interesting what she shows. It might even shed light on
some other perceived trolls. They aren't out to get you angry
(there are some though). They are just really passionate.
[> [> [> [> [>
lunasea, my problem -- KdS, 12:54:13 03/12/03 Wed
My problem is that, however unlikely it may seem to you, some
people in the world are over-sensitive. If you mix your intelligent,
thoughtful side and your fangirl satirical side in the same post,
the two start merging and it's hard to tell the difference between
them. When you post a reasonable, perfectly polite argument in
response to me and then finish it with
If something disturbs you that some person that you haven't
even met and know next to nothing about wrote, the problem isn't
what was said.
I feel as if your reasonable, controlled side is slyly slipping
in a premeditated insult suggesting that I am emotionally unstable,
but doing so in a plausibly deniable manner so that you can come
off as the victim if I completely lose it and flame you.
You might have noticed that we already have one regular dual-identity
poster on this board, HonorH and her Hellgoddess alter ego Honorificus.
Now Honorificus has said some unspeakable things to people in
the past, but all of us know that they're not meant to wound because
they are so blatantly over the top, and because we got to know
HonorH as the nice, kind, genuinely good person she is before
we met Honorificus.
I get the impression from your posts that however much you talk
about the "Dark Night" you are a naturally self-confident
person who can shed most things like water off a duck's back.
I'm glad for you, and I envy you, but some of us, like me, like
William who you regard as not truly human because he failed to
stand up for himself as aggressively as you would, don't have
that extra layer of skin. It may be a lack in me, I may be over-sensitive.
But I've met a lot of genuine, premeditated bullies in my time,
and you come perilously close to making me fear that you may be
one of them. And I mean that. And I didn't try to cover it up
as a casual, exasperated comment. And if I'm wrong, I'm sorry,
but I really want to get how I feel across. If I'm wrong, please
keep your alter ego off the board, or give her a clearly recognisable
variation on your name.
Masq and D'Herb, remove this if you want, and sorry to upset all
the innocent bystanders.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Stepping in for just one comment, before completely butting
out. -- Rob, 13:03:28 03/12/03 Wed
The fact of the matter is, lunasea, that KdS isn't the only person
who's brought these issues up with you. I might understand if
you just felt he was the only one who didn't get your posting
identity. But quite a bunch have people have brought these issues
up with you. I doubt that the fact that so many are having a similar
reaction to your tone is just a coincidence. Again, the mark that
you might want to try to listen is that no one is attacking you.
The posts informing you of the problems people have with your
tone have been very polite and helpful. No one's trying to be
an enemy to you here, just explaining to you a certain response
you are raising in a group of posters, and suggesting alternate
ways of getting your points across.
And that's all I have to say. :o)
Rob
[> Hey, ya'll, go look at
dub's pics at Clems. Made me feel warm and fuzzy (spoilers for
Clem's hobby) -- Random, 14:30:31 03/12/03 Wed
[> Not quite understanding
where the criticism is coming from -- lunasea, 15:10:17
03/12/03 Wed
This is the point where the entire board should be laughing.
ME took me on quite a ride with Angel. Now they are doing the
same thing. With every twist I forsee, I become Buffy. Go ahead
laugh at my expense. I can show you the dance of superiority if
you want.
Why does she give all those speeches? Because she thinks those
around her need them. She is better than them because she doesn't
have to be motivated like that. They need her to kick them in
the rear and shock them into reality. They can't see things without
her. They don't know what to do without her. With every word,
she is eaten a little more.
This was pretty much the point of the essay. It isn't about what
I see as the theme of the show, "the relationships you build
with people...are the only thing that lends the journey meaning."
It isn't what I see as the theme of this season, the importance
of that connection. Any writer can write a story about that.
What makes ME great at what they do is they do more than tell
a story. They bring us into it. We become the characters. We don't
identify with them. We become them. Pretty much everytime Buffy
has cried, so have I. I fell in love with Angel, right along with
her. I became Willow's friend. I got annoyed with Xander. I wanted
Giles for my dad. I fell in love with Riley. I got annoyed with
the Scoobies. Little Sister Dawn annoyed me, but I loved her.
I felt alone. I got creeped out by Spike. This season, I got her
superiority complex which cut me off from people.
It was a confession of sorts. I said to laugh at my expense. I
said to do the dance of superiority. IMNSHO = In my not so humble
opinion. This has been a great big joke at my own expense.
This is not the time to lecture me on my tone. I just did that.
No offense, but was anyone paying attention? The title of the
post "From beneath them it devours me." It even had
a little smilie after it.
The essay is supposed to come off sounding obnoxious. That is
the point. It is making fun of that tone that has been evidenced.
It is also a confession that it eats me up when I am like this.
Until a few months ago, my writing sucked. I could come up with
amazing plots and even universes, but there was no heart behind
the characters. Most sci-fi suffers from this IMNSHO. Then I came
out of my Dark Night and found my heart. That heart translated
to my writing. My writing became much better.
It also really changed my understanding of the shows. Before I
focused on Angel's epiphanies and cravings that led to his growth.
I missed a lot of the connection and what the PTB were doing.
I missed what is our humanity. I understood it academically, sort
of, but it didn't mean anything to me. I focused on the Scoobies
growing up. Party of Five with Rocket Launchers. Now I see a whole
other layer. The story isn't about them growing up. That is the
vehicle to an even more beautiful story. I got it backwards, the
connections aren't the vehicle the story of their growth is created
from. It is the story. It isn't about the journey. The journey
is the vehicle for the story.
Then the season started and I started looking at the show, the
story from this new perspective. It worked really well until I
start putting my thoughts down into electrons. This season is
particularly difficult because there are so many nods to the "special"
communities I belong to: net, Angel watchers and die-hard Buffy
watcher. They keep building me up. They keep making me feel superior.
That is what they want to do.
I thought it was an interesting observation. I debated whether
to share it with the board. I figured I'd get lots of "I
told you so's." Instead I got, "if you just...."
I was told that I came off like a bully and various other not-so
nice things. They were all meant in the best spirit (well not
all, but my mantra is "Be one with the duck...quaaaaack"),
but I already admitted there was a tone of superiority to my posts.
I really am not that interesting a topic (well, yeah I am. As
Joss said "Let's not stray too far from the "me"
subject, okay?). I am sure that others don't find me that interesting
a topic at least. Why devote this much bandwidth to me? As far
as I am concerned, all these posts should be erased. If someone
wants, I can repost the original thread again.
I am not going to lose irrational-fan girl. Nor am I going to
relegate her to a seperate identity. They both are me. I can watch
something with both hats on. I have a really big head :-)
I think she gives an interesting perspective. The fire for the
show comes from her. I wouldn't write 25 pages essays if I didn't
have passion for the show. For the board, I will capitalize everything
she says from now on. I figured people could tell the difference,
but heck, half the time I can't except in retrospect and I might
not even be right.
I spent a great deal of time, energy and money reintegrating my
dissociative personality. It is very hard for me to seperate them.
I will give it a try, but I can't promise things. I am Jeanie.
That is about it.
[> [> Re: Not quite understanding
where the criticism is coming from -- Alison, 15:21:33
03/12/03 Wed
I think its great that you have the confidence to laugh at yourself.
But maybe some of us took this post so badly because of the tone
of your other posts..in which case, we are mistaken, but reasonably
so.
And I think its great that you love the show so much. I have to
say though, if we all let our inner fan girls (or boys) run wild,
this board would not be half so enjoyable. On occasion, I'm sure
every one of us has wanted to be spiteful, or our inner fan person
has wanted to pound someone elses..but for the most part, we don't.
Thats why I love comming to this place...I can learn in an open
and accepting enviroment..and learn about something I love.
Just something to think about...
Absolutely
OT - Article on the costs of lost freedoms -- Darby, 07:16:37
03/12/03 Wed
I just thought that many of the folks here would be interested
in the ideas discussed here.
It's a NY Times article about how the White House Budget Office
is starting to look at security restrictions from a cost-benefit
standpoint. Seques into all sorts of interesting questions about
just what freedom is worth in dollars and cents. One hopes that
isn't the only consideration, but at least it's a hint that someone
is thinking in detail about the consequences of proposed actions.
I sometimes wonder how a widespread knowledge of vampires and
demons would affect the logistics of the Buffyverse, so there
is a very tenuous connection here.
[> Re: Less OT - Article
on the costs of lost freedoms -- Arethusa, 08:31:10 03/12/03
Wed
For instance, if the local government acknowldged the existance
of demons, residents and businesses might move away to safety,
decreasing the tax rolls. But since the high number of deaths
decrease property values, Sunnydale probably is one of the cheapest
place to live in California, which makes it attractive to businesses
and its employees, especially in the funeral business. (Can you
imagine a crossover between Six Feet Under and BtVS? It would
kinda put a damper on those mortuary conversations.) The number
of magic shops and galleries that sell relics and aritfacts would
increase, as well as hospital facilities, blood banks, etc. Sunnydale
could probably advertise itself as the blood bank capitol of the
world, selling blood that wouldn't have to be tested for disease.
Sosmeone (probably the same man who is trying to turn downtown
Houston into a tourist trap) could even create recreational facilities
for those who want to experience supernatural danger. Fox could
fill its enitre schedule with When Vampires Attack, Cops: Sunnydale,
Survivor: Sunnydale High School. And the merchandising! The sky's
the limit!
[> [> More suggestions
for Fox: -- Arethusa, 08:58:15 03/12/03 Wed
Who Wants To Marry a Vampire, starring Spike. This Old Haunted
House, with Xander. Bachelorette, which tries to marry off a cetain
ex-ex-demon. Celebrity Fear Factor: Shannon Dougherty is tossed
into a crypt filled with starving vampires. 7th Heaven: Rev. Camden
minsters to the residents torn out of heaven. Joss's suggestion:
Law and Order: Vampire version. Buffy catches the demons, Sam
Waterston convicts them.
[> [> [> Re: More
suggestions for Fox: -- CW, 10:27:22 03/12/03 Wed
Who Wants To Marry a Vampire, starring Spike.
Good idea, especially with the twist at the end when the shocked
(and no doubt disappointed) winner finds out he has his soul back.
That ought to keep the audience on the edge of it's seats. Sorry.
Just trying to make people who like reality TV feel guilty, guilty,
guilty! ;o)
[> [> [> Of course,
Touched by Angel -- luna, 10:50:07 03/12/03 Wed
Deep breaths...
(Angel Odyssey 3.6-3.8) -- Tchaikovsky, 09:21:01 03/12/03
Wed
That could be either me or Darla. In some ways, I suppose Darla
has more reason than me, but on the other hand, I'd managed to
make my way through to the end of 'Offspring' before the evil
University computer I was working on went blank-screen with absolutely
no warning. About 2000 words lost. I love these episodes so much
I'm going to re-write them all, but it did take me several hours
and almost bankrupting myself buying books to calm me down. So
now you know the background!
3.6- 'Billy'
This episode is superb. It's also, superbly, exactly what I wanted
when I asked for a Wesley episode. I wanted to see him in the
centre, with the restrained exterior that we've only seen occasionally
threatened really shaken up a bit. That's exactly what I got.
Back to the superlative Wes/Fred plotline in a second.
We open however, with something that also needed to be addressed-
namely, as yabyumpan pointed out, the discrepancy between the
Cordelia-Angel of the first three episodes and that of 'Carpe
Noctem'. It seemed illogical that after the 'I know you' lines
Cordelia wouldn't notice the body switch. However, here there's
a re-affirmation of the original development, which is nothingless
than you'd expect from Minear. There's also just a touch of C/A
mixing in with the C-A, I believe. It's there in the synchronicity
of the swordfighting at the end, and Angel's almost ecstatic 'I
get that!', when Cordelia talks about being simultaneously comforted
and creeped. It becomes clear that the superficial differences
between the two: Cordelia's bright cheerleading and Angel's dark
broodiness are actually much less important by now than the shared
experiences and the mutual aspect of mental toughness that both
characters exhibit in this episode.
Now to Wesley. We are set up at the beginning of the episode with
him chatting to Cordelia about his feelings for Fred. It seemed
a cute little reference back to that scene with Giles about Cordelia
herself, where Giles says: 'She's eighteen, and you have the maturity
of a blueberry scone'. Now it's Cordelia who has to help him face
his repression, but Wesley, as usual is keeping his emotions very
much in check. Previously, we have only seen brief snatches of
the turmoil (at least discomfort) going on underneath the fierce
control. There was the demon talking to him in 'I've got You Under
My Skin'. There was his inability to communicate how torn up he
was about Virginia leaving to Cordelia in 'Reprise'. And of course,
there was that very powerful phone scene in 'Belonging', which
drew its power from the fact that Wesley was obviously deeply
effected but tried not to show it in his voice.
Here, his tendency to keep his emotions behind his outer face
is completely sabotaged by Billy, who is one of the most creepy
'monsters' ever on the show. Because, despite the fact that I
haven't read Masq's metaphysics seciton for this yet, I think
it's fair to say that Wesley wasn't simply possessed. It's not
so scary when Angel's body is taken by the old man, only for everything
to work out OK, and Angel to be largely unaffected. Here, Wesley's
own character is being messed with, so that real aspects of his
psyche are brought to the fore, and his most repressed feelings
of anger and despair taken out on other people. In this case,
the most apparently vulnerable member of the group, Fred.
I love the character of Fred, due to the way she has been constructed.
Like Buffy, she subverts the archetype of the damsel in distress.
Several times in the past few episodes, (hostage in 'That Old
Gang of Mine', seeing Angel in 'Carpe Noctem', with the monster
in 'Fredless' and finally here), she has been put in a dangerous
position, and each time, (pretending to be willing to shoot Angel,
the Fitzgerald perspective, discovering the crystals and with
'You forgot I also like to build things'), she wins through by
intelligence and self-confidence. But although Fred always rebuffs
any suggestion that she is helpless or uninnovative, she genuinely
is rather emotionally immature, so her hunting by Wesley takes
on yet another layer of extreme terror.
After the incident is over, we get the final scene. Here, we have
Fred being wonderfully forgiving and, once again, interpreting
the actions in the best light. Unfortunately, I don't believe
we're supposed to take what Fred says at face value. Because she
has a tendency to see things simplistically. We've just seen her
cariacatures of the group (Wesley the brains, Gunn the muscle
etc), in the previous episode. While she truly believes that Wesley
is a good man, Wesley in far from convinced. He has hidden himself
away in his 'cave', and is pondering the fact that 'I don't know
what kind of man I am any more'. Because the things he said to
Fred, were, as is clear from the opening scenes, things he was
thinking, but without the restraint to hold them back. Even in
his drakest moments, Wesley has had the conviction that he was
Good. Even when routinely teased and shunned by Buffy and Giles.
His Rogue Demon Hunter phase was really just an attempt to be
cool, not a genuine channelling of his dark side. But now he has
discovered another confusing side of himself, and the very profoundness
makes him cry [and me, unsurprisingly].
Other thoughts on this episode:
-I enjoyed the Cordelia-Lilah scene. Once again, I don't believe
we're quite supposed to take Cordelia at face value. She claims
'I was you. With better shoes'. Actually, Cordelia was never actively
evil, she just was shallow and occasionally 'a bitch'. But the
parallel is an interesting one. There's an odd feminism in Cordelia's
contention that 'Someone with the mantle of "vicious bitch"
would never allow this to happen'. Cordelia shows that she has
becme much more perceptive to others' feelings and her ability
to get across ideas since she moved to LA. Her pep talk ends up
with Lilah killing Billy.
-Cordelia feels the responsibility for Billy's deaths. This is
interesting. Angel tells her that only Billy is responsible- suggesting
that he perhaps believes that only the direct perpertrator should
be culpable. However, once again we are supposed to doubt this
conclusion. Both because Angel is the character who locked the
lawyers in Manners' basements in 'Reunion', and who needed to
feel guilty for this, and also because Billy's crimes aren't even
direct. Although he clearly is responsible, he isn't the
one committing the murders, so he is one step removed, as Angel
is two steps. It's another moral ambiguity to which we are not
given the answer, which is another example of how ME treats its
viewers as adults who need to have questions asked rather than
morals imposed.
-Billy is both misogynistic, and, less obviously, misandrist.
Clearly he enjoys watching the women tortured, but he also enjoys
the effect that the surfacing of the anger has on the men's lives.
Negative effects.
-Have I said 'Go Fred!' enough yet? Good.
An excellent episode. But this one is possibly even better:
3.7- 'Offspring'
The seventh episode of the Season has been highlighted by some
people as having a disproportionate number of excellent offerings.
This is because, a third of the way through the Buffy arc, it
often holds many revelations. 'Lie To Me' holds moral ambiguity
in love and death. The Initiative is introduced in Season Four,
and transcendant love and the Slayer's supposed death wish in
'Fool For love'. There is the beginning of Spuffy proper in 'Once
More, With Feeling'. And here in a Season which has had a propulsive
type of movement more akin to Buffy than Angel's previous Seasons,
we have a similar episode here, establishing some of the important
plot twists to come.
This is an essentially Greenwaltian episode- all the crazy little
bits, all the angst and humour mixed rather haphazardly together
to produce a result of absolute genius. As a result, this review
will jump about the place a bit.
-Lorne is having Caritas rebuilt, which allows for some humour
with the Furies and the works of art. He also gets one of my pet
Audience/Writer lines. After Fred gives her 'Destiny/Everything's
Evitable' speech, he says, 'Oh, I like her so much!' Remember
Lorne is Greenwalt, and he is so happy with his newest creation
at this point, [and I assume a positive reaction] that he says
so through Lorne. Incidentally, Lorne's quite right, and Fred
too. 'Screw destiny' is one of the most important recurring themes
of ME's work- all the way back to Buffy with ehr dress in 'Prophecy
Girl'.
-In the teaser, there are a couple of scenes, both interesting.
Holtz, in a rather brutal way, actually articulates an important
eternal question of AtS: if you were to burn the demon away, just
what would be left? Anything?
-We then cut to Darla arriving on the bus. This is very
important, to me at least. Remember back to 'Crush', where Drusilla
arrives at Sunnydale on the train. Buffy finds her out by finding
Miss Edith. Drusilla is the monster and the child. In rhis episode,
the same thing arrives. Darla is the Monster, and what she is
carrying is the Child. Thus the link back is an extremely clever
in-reference.
-While we have the Monster/Child dichotomy, the more important
one to Darla in this episode is the Monster/Mother dichotomy.
Angel and Cordelia summarise the two sides that she feels early
on. Cordelia, smarting from having one of the only lies Angel
has ever told her outed, (and shortly after some C/A shippiness),
takes Darla as only the Mother. Definitely a case of 'over-identify
much?' after 'Expecting'. On the other hand, Angel is ready to
stake Darla, the monster, as he claimed he would next time he
saw her. Then he realises that the 'offspring' has a heart-beat,
and realises that she is a Mother as well.
-The most powerful expression of this duality of roles is through
Darla at the arcade. When she finds the child, is she aboutto
eat him or is she merely broody? Is she looking at theparents
with scorn or jealousy? This is a question that has to be continued
to be dealt with throughout the arc.
-Darla's 'Hello Lover' echoes Buffy's opening to Angelus in 'Becoming'.
This is important. Darla wants to play the adversary, but realises
that instead she's going to have to fit into a whole new relationship
archetype [!].
-And then there's the extremely shocking resurrection of Holtz
at the end. We expect the teaser just to be a flashback to emphasise
Angel and Darla's connection, but actually, it's something much
more. Like Darla at the endof 'Heartthrob', this is a twist which
initially seems tacked on if powerful, but actually is perfectly
thought through.
-Talking of 'Heartthrob', it's interesting how Angel immediately
equates the child's heartbeat with having a soul. This is telling
as to how abnormal he feels. The soul is in some ways represented
by the heart-beat, but Angel is outside the pattern. Still, and
ever, the isolate.
-Gunn. What to say. Not much. He gets to juggle. Very Greenwaltian.
And the line 'I'm uneasy because there's a man with a rifle standing
behind you'. Very funny.
Super episode.
3.8- 'Quickening'
Right, so now I'm not repeating myself, which is a nice thing,
although drafting the last two actually appears to have made the
points clearer, so maybe it was a blessing in disguise.
In this episode, there are three perspectives going on, all important.
It's a bit of a commentary on the opposite of the Virgin birth-
we might call it the Virginia birth. In the nativity, there was
no sex, just love on all sides, but a child to redeem the world.
And it was physically impossible.Here, sex is all the conception
was about, nothing else. Just empty passion. There was no love,
and now a child is here who ma wreck the world. And it was physically
impossible. So, rather like the Gospels, and the various interpretations
of them, we see the birth from three angles. The angle of Angel,
the family, like Mary and Joseph. The angle of bureaucratic evil-
Wolfram and Hart endlessly trying to control everything, turning
everything to their advantage. And the angle of the man with the
vendetta. The man who has been wronged before, and is now here
to end the damage which the two vampires have done for 220 years.
Holtz and Sajihan are very interesting and important in this episode.
There are an unusually high number of long, smash cuts put in
in editing, which suggests both the discontinuity of 227 years
in Hotlz's life, and also the way that time is pushing inevitably
['Screw destiny!' seems irrelevant here] towards a moment of complete
crisis. The idea of destiny is important to Holtz and Sajihan,
and the scenes where we see Holtz learning about modernity just
highlightshow history seems to be centring in on this one point.
A point Wolfram and Hart have an important prophecy for. A point
Holtz has been waiting for 200 years to see. And a point where
Angel, Cordelia and Darla are just acting the best that they can
to take the situation which they have no prior knowledge of into
hand. Isn't it always so? We read what will happen, but ultimately
we must merely make choices which seem impossible, and hope for
the best, knowing only afterwards how important our choice was,
for better, for worse, or for neither.
So this is one aspect of the idea of 'Quickening', the speeding
up of time towards the crucial moment at the end of the episode.
But I think there is most definitely the connotation as expressed
in:
'The third day He rose again from the dead
He ascended into heaven
And sitteth on the right of God the Father Almighty
From thence he shall come to jusge the quick and the dead'.
Almost puzzlingly, nothing is born in this episode. But this is
not the point. The idea is 'quickening', becoming alive. Holtz,
despite already being resurrected, is only just learning how to
live in the 21st century. And all the time, the thing inside Darla
is becoming alive. There's a quickening process going on.
There's some nice writing of Linwood/Lilah/Park by Bell. They
have a real office feel in this episode, which contrasts jarringly
and so effectively with the human trauma and the idea of destiny
provided by Holtz. In a sense, that's the trichotomy [who cares
if it's a word]; family, destiny, bureaucracy. How many people's
lives does that, ultimately describe. Relatiobnships, (our versions
of) religion and work. These three really help to focus the birth.
I can't believe they ended the episode on definitely the biggest
cliffhanger ever, as Darla's waters broke. Can't believe they
made you wait a week for the conclusion. Having finally beaten
the evl computers, I can go and watch it now. And what's more,
it's a Minear episode. I can the tingles already.
Thanks for reading- this was a struggle to get done, one way or
another, but it was worth it, and I love this Season.
TCH
[> Mostly on Billy --
KdS, 09:33:56 03/12/03 Wed
Sorry for teasing you earlier, but knowing what was coming up
in the following ep, I just couldn't resist it. I'll try to restrain
myself in future.
You said it all on Wes, but when I look back on the ep I can't
help but remember the Cordy/Lilah scene - for me CC's all time
finest moment on the series. The only failure is that I can't
help but see Lilah's killing of Billy as an overly tidy moral
cop-out - put the killing on the person who's already evil.
I must admit, I didn't realise the full extent to which the D/A/C
relationship is a parody of the Christian Holy Family until you
laid it out.
[> [> Shouldn't worry
-- Tchaikovsky, 15:12:26 03/12/03 Wed
After posting that Wesley line, and then going to watch 'Billy',
I realise that it would take someone much more restrained than
me to hold back from a little teasing at the fact that what you've
just asked for is about to come true in the creepiest and most
disturbing of ways!
I do completely agree with your take on Lilah getting the blame.
Now, in a sense I think ME earnt it, because after Cordelia's
wonderful speech, I truly believed that Lilah would help out in
some way. But to allow that to become one in a long line of previous
sins and to subsequently ignore it, (at least in what I've watched:
3.7-3.9), is sneaky if not a little lazy.
But only a minor nitpick on a great episode.
TCH
[> You are in for a big
treat. (no spoilers) -- Rob, 09:42:47 03/12/03 Wed
The next episode is, to date, my favorite episode of AtS ever.
I can't wait for you to experience it! There are plenty of goosebumps
and chills a-comin' for you! :o)
And oh my God, how awful to lose so much! One time I lost an entire
transcript I did for my Six Feet Under site. It took me three
days to type out the transcript for this entire episode, and in
a matter of seconds, it was gone forever. After three days of
whining and complaining and treating myself to four or five DVDs,
I finally got back to it. That is the worst! So glad you found
the strength to rewrite it all.
Rob
[> [> Lullaby --
Tchaikovsky, 02:13:27 03/13/03 Thu
Review coming tomorrow after the new Angel threads have calmed
down a touch, but very good stuff indeed. Not sure it's my favourite,
but certainly up there.
And your transcript hell sounds much worse than my little problem,
but I was fuming this time yesterday. Then I manage to post it,
get a host of intelligent replies, and feel much better.
TCH
[> Quickie response, TCH,
I'll have more later -- Masq, 09:58:47 03/12/03 Wed
I'm wondering, now that you've had the chance to read my Metaphysics
of "Billy", and Wesley's Moral Ambiguity, what you think
happened to Wesley.
I tend towards the Fred interpretation because the idea that something
real was brought out in Wesley has disturbing implications. Namely,
sassette's interpretation of "Primal misogyny'. We can't
just notice that Billy had an effect on Wesley. He had an effect
on almost every man he touched. Did he bring out something primal
and real in them? That bothers me, the notion that there is a
universal, natural misogyny in men.
Or perhaps what was "real" in Wesley that he brought
out was a misogynistic upbringing. Wesley starts spouting things
he learned at Daddy's knee, not to mention from the Watcher's
Council and English society. Things that the better part of his
nature knows to ignore under a clearer mind.
Or Billy infused all the men, including Wesley, with his own attitudes.
This seems less likely than a combination--Billy infuses them
with anger, they fill in the explanation for their anger with
attitudes they've been raised with, whether they really believe
them or not.
[> [> Billy and Wesley
-- KdS, 12:34:52 03/12/03 Wed
I'm male and I'm bothered by the implication that primordial misogyny
is inherent in all men. I prefer to see it, like you, that Billy's
effect was more like temporary vampirisation - an intense externally-introduced
aggression expressing itself in a manner that is filtered through
the victim's own character.
And it's interesting what comes over very strongly in Wes's rant
if you look through the misogyny - the deep fear of being mocked,
humiliated and manipulated. Exactly what one might expect from
a man with Wesley's implied childhood.
[> [> Very tricky subject
-- Tchaikovsky, 13:46:20 03/12/03 Wed
Both of the quotes on your page for Billy are important I think.
sassette's 'primal misogyny' introduces deeply negative connotations
to men's primal instincts. I don't believe this, and, like KdS
and you, find it disturbing that this idea could be incorporated
into the mythology of the Whedonverse. However, I also agree with
Ryuei that the particular way which Wesley expressed his anger,
the Conservative Christian background from which he appeared to
be coming from, (Fred should not expose herself- in doing so she
is degrading him!etc) seems to tie in totally plausibly
with a strict, unloving upbringing in a cold British family of
the early 70's.
So I think I might go for your combination theory. Billy supplied
the irrational anger. The anger is per se directed at women- as
this is Billy's modus operandi However, the deeply disturbing
reasoning lurking below the surface is a sub-conscious
part of Wesley's psyche. Otherwise, why bother to show the scene
where Wesley admits his attraction at the beginning? Deep down,
I believe Wesley was thinking about how hard it is to work around
Fred without betraying emotion- and when the anger was supplied,
the attitudes he had been considering came out, viscerally, in
the most nasty way possible. I think the ending loses some of
its (intended) power if Wesley is entirely wrong- having a crisis
for no reason- and Fred is entirely right. Then we're given the
easy option out- that Wesley was overcome by Billy's prejudices.
This isn't consistent with the structure of the episode, in my
opinion.
But when we get too deeply into the metaphysical things, my mind
gets all confused. Those debates on how much of Angel is in Angelus
is in Liam is in the Pylean beast etc make my head spin.
TCH
[> [> [> Wesley's
self-doubt -- Masq, 13:56:03 03/12/03 Wed
The doubt Wesley has about the kind of man he is is important
here, I think. I am not intending to tease you with spoilery statements
again, but Wesley's self-doubt here, whether justified or not,
is important, because it resonates across the rest of the season
and into Season 4.
[> [> [> Re: Very
tricky subject -- Dannyblue, 22:00:01 03/12/03 Wed
Someone may have stated this later in the thread, but remember
that it was Lilah that said Billy brings out a hatred of women
that's inherent in all men. But Lilah (and W&H) have a tendency
to see things in the worst possible light. I think they believe
you are either realistic (as they are) or nieve (as Angel and
company are). That anyone who tries to help others rather than
only looking out for themselves is not too bright. That it's okay
to steal from charities because everybody would if they had the
opportunity. It's okay to take a limb from one (living) person
and give it to someone else, especially if the reciever is more
important/can pay.
It wouldn't surprise me that they thought Billy just brought things
out in men that were already there. That all men hate women and
are a step away from abusing them. That's just the way they *would*
think.
[> [> [> [> That
makes sense -- Tchaikovsky, 02:10:01 03/13/03 Thu
Maybe we as an audience are supposed to mediate both Fred and
Lilah's opinions. Neither are totally right. Minear definitely
says that the episode asks questions and doesn't give answers,
so that would make sense. The simplistically comforting explanation
coming from Fred, and the simplistically disturbing one from Lilah.
Maybe the truth lies somewhere in bewteen.
TCH
[> Glad you re-typed, TCH
-- Scroll, 10:11:16 03/12/03 Wed
I think it's interesting how guilty Cordy feels while Angel doesn't
seem the least bit guilty. It shows how much these characters
have changed since, IMHO, in Season 1 Angel would've been the
one broody about breaking Billy out while Cordy would've been
the one putting the blame squarely on Billy. Personally, I was
kind of affronted by the fact that Angel hasn't even bothered
to hunt Billy down after Cordy was healed. He just let this potential
evil guy go free without making sure he wouldn't be a danger.
Here, his tendency to keep his emotions behind his outer face
is completely sabotaged by Billy, who is one of the most creepy
'monsters' ever on the show. Because, despite the fact that I
haven't read Masq's metaphysics seciton for this yet, I think
it's fair to say that Wesley wasn't simply possessed. [...] Here,
Wesley's own character is being messed with, so that real aspects
of his psyche are brought to the fore, and his most repressed
feelings of anger and despair taken out on other people.
"Billy" is one of my all-time favourite episodes because
of what it tells us about Wesley. I have to wonder, how much of
what he says to Fred stuff he heard from his own father? The Council
is clearly very patriarchal -- not that there aren't female Watchers
-- but in that it acts as a patriarchal institution. It's about
authority and control, distant and emotionless. It's views about
Slayers/women seem to be similar to the things Wesley says, i.e.
women not listening, being deceitful, etc.
I think one of the most scarying aspects of Wes' dark side is
that he was still so very much in control of himself. He hardly
ever raised his voice, his search of Fred was methodical and intelligent,
his insanity was restrained and yet also ruthless. (I think AD
is the best actor of either cast, so I could be biased :) )
Love the bus driving all crazy on the street. Y'know, there's
just something so powerful and visceral about seeing a "helpless
young woman" (namely Dru and Darla) enter a place full of
humans, and simply terrorise them so completely. Not that I'm
advocating for more massacres, but you gotta admit, you get goosebumps.
Interesting what you say about love/destiny/bureaucracy. I never
saw it that way before, but makes sense. Personally, I think Holtz
is one of the best adversaries to come along in a good long while
on either show. He has so much history with Angel and Darla, and
you know you can't exactly classify him as completely as the Bad
Guy. He's also the victim, the one who has suffered and lost because
of Angelus. The past come back to literally bite Angel in the
butt.
BTW, I echo Rob. You're gonna love the next episode. One of the
very best!
[> [> Eep! Skip my 2nd
last paragraph! Vague spoilers for Lullaby -- Scroll, 10:20:16
03/12/03 Wed
So sorry, but I couldn't really remember which episode had what
in it, and I ended up giving away a vague spoiler for "Lullaby".
It's nothing too pivotal, but still, better skip over my second
last paragraph, the one right before, "BTW, I echo Rob...".
So sorry!
[> [> [> No problem
Scroll -- Tchaikovsky, 14:45:25 03/12/03 Wed
Nipped off to watch 'Lullaby' immediately after I'd posted these,
because you can't leave Darla in labour and just get on with your
life!
I'd also tend to agree with you both about the patriarchial atmosphere
of the Watcher's Council, [WC seems so appropriate] and on Alexis
Densisof's marvellous acting. Up there with Anthony Stewart Head
and Michelle Trachtenberg for me, although I may be alone on picking
these three.
[> [> [> [> Not
alone, ASH & MT do subtle very well -- Scroll, 16:05:00
03/12/03 Wed
When I first saw Michelle Trachtenberg in those first few episodes
of Season 5, I had to admit I was too busy figuring out why/how
this sister got there that I didn't notice her acting. But going
back, I realise how wonderful this young teen is at portraying
her character. She has wonderfully subtle moments, and a very
expressive face and eyes. Everything the writers throw at her,
MT runs with it and always meets and sometimes even surpasses
the talent of the older actors. And Dawn has marvellous chemistry
with Buffy, Joyce, and Giles, esp.
Can't wait to see your review of "Lullaby"!
[> From the 'Billy' DVD
commentary by Minear & Bell (spoilers for the commentary - duh)
-- Dead Soul, 10:16:58 03/12/03 Wed
According to Minear and Bell, Joss wrote both the Lilah-Angel
and the Lilah-Cordelia scenes.
They remarked that the "primordial misogyny" that Billy
brought out in men was the most controversial thing in the episode.
They also told Billy's backstory. He, in their minds as they were
writing, was the result of a human, his father, raping a demon,
his mother. Another classic ME subversion.
They also remarked on something that had struck me while watching
the ep - that that hotel door Wesley was hacking at with the axe
was the strongest door ever because it took him so long to get
through.
Hope I remembered these bits right, it's been a couple of days
since I watched the commentary.
I also want to say how much I'm enjoying your reviews. I've been
watching right along with you, although for me it's almost entirely
re-watching, however, this is the first time I've gotten to see
"Fredless" which is now, I think, my very favorite episode.
Dead (and still dressed in my ambiguous pajamas) Soul
[> [> More from TM re:
Billy -- yabyumpan, 12:38:41 03/12/03 Wed
This is from uk.media.tv.angel, a google site that TM used to
post at quite often although he hasn't been around for a while.
In answer to the 'Primordial Misogyny' quote he said
It's rather one of the questions of the episode. Let me try
to clarify, if I
can, by mentioning a couple of things.
First off, Joss wrote the Lilah/Cordy scenes. Jeff and I broke
the story (Joss
involved as always), and we wrote the rest of it, but this infamous
line was
from Joss. I don't have the same problem with it that some have.
Lilah calls
it "primordial misogyny," but at the end of the episode
Fred makes the point
"it wasn't something that was in you, if was something that
was done to you."
For me, this is the question of the episode, one that we made
no attempt to
answer. It was about the question.
Now, for my part, I do not feel that man is "basically good."
I believe that
goodness, while a trait of humankind, is something that needs
to be taught.
Babies are not "good," they are, by their nature and
by their weakness,
mewling, screaming, totally self centered creatures. Cute, don't
get me wrong.
Still.
That man is not inherently good and that civilization is a process,
many times
a process which goes against parts of human nature but for a higher
good, is my
own personal opinion, and you may or may not find it leaking into
the drama
that I write.
Do men have a savage streak? A barbaric side to their natures
that must,
through choice and consciousness, be tamed? I kinda think so.
Does this mean
that all men are misogynists? Uh, no.
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=tim+minear+billy+group:uk.media.tv.angel&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=20020804175420.14289.00001538%40mb-fn.aol.com&rnum=3
Sadly, I don't have any problem with the idea of 'primordeal Misogyny'
esp in light of recent primate research which has found that Chimpanzes
commit rape and gang rape, quite often as a way of keeping the
female members of the troop in line. For me the real question
is whether or not it's acted upon and how much awareness the individual
has of this trait. I think the other thing with the statement
isn't so much about it's actual validity but the fact, as I see
it, that it feels real to many women in the western world.
There is an un-written and, a lot of the time, unconscious rule
amongst, I would say, most women, that you have to be careful
when you are out alone at night. We tend to avoid dark alleys,
try not to travel alone etc and we do this because of a fear (real
or otherwise) that we will be attacked by a man/men. It's something
that's re-enforced continually by the media, by family and friends,
by the police. Not wanting to really get into a Feminist diatribe
but women are told they have to change their behaviour and live
all the time with a fear of men (generally this is unconscious)
because of the possibility the 'we might be attacked'.
I'm not going to say any more now as my mum's just turned up!
Just want to say that this isn't an attack on men and I hope it's
not percieved as such.
[> [> Thanks DS --
Tchaikovsky, 14:49:52 03/12/03 Wed
Interesting tid-bits there: I'm always pleased to hear that Joss
Whedon has written one of my favourite scenes, because, hey, it
all helps the mythical deity delusion I have going.
Also would have been good to hear a little bit more of the back-story
of Billy, which isn't really gone into.
And I really love 'Fredless'. Possibly my favourite of the Season
so far- although this Season is so consistent that there's 'Heartthrob',
'Billy', 'Offspring' and 'Lullaby' all crowding it, and I'm not
even half way through the Season.
TCH
[> Now I can start talking
about the Season 3 Angel/Darla archetypes -- Masq, 11:21:11
03/12/03 Wed
Remember, these are archetypes that ME writes Angel(us) and Darla
into, not roles they merely playing with each other. They are
therefore very real, and often touching, at least for me.
Darla shows up on the doorstep of the Hyperion as the classic
"girl knocked up and abandoned". Angel's life has gone
on just fine since he had that night with Darla. He's gone on
to reintegrate with his friends, to mourn Buffy, to fight demons
and in general, live his un-life. Darla, in the mean time, has
been having to deal with this mysterious entity inside of her
that she can't get rid of and that is growing bigger every day.
The reprecussions of sleeping with Angel have become her
un-life with this pregnancy.
The last time she saw Angel, he essentially gave her the brush-off.
"If I see you again, I'll kill you."
But now Angel is a father, and therefore has some responsibility
to Darla. He can't just brush her off. Well, of course
he could, he could be the dead-beat dad. But Angel quickly
realizes that not only can't he do that because he has a responsibility
to help deal with her pregnancy, he also can't do that because
he has an emotional investment in Darla's child. It is something
he realizes he wants--a human son.
Suddenly, Darla and Angel(us) are something new to each other.
Something they haven't really ever been, even when they were sheparding
around James and Elisabeth or Spike and Drusilla. They are parents,
REAL parents. Darla hates the idea of bringing a human child into
the world. And Angel suddenly has this very real connection to
life--biological life--that he never thought he'd have as a member
of the undead. And he got that connection via the vampire sire
that gave him his despised undead status.
The responsibility here is very huge, because a human child, a
souled human being, if that's what he is, is a very different
thing than newly-made adult vampire offspring. The decisions concerning
this baby are weightier.
Darla and Angel will enter an even newer and more different aspect
of their relationship in "Lullaby", so I'll stop for
now.
[> Raving about Billy
-- Arethusa, 12:44:04 03/12/03 Wed
There is so much I love about Billy. Cordy and Angel's training,
which sets up the later possible confrontation between the two
when Billy thinks he's infected Angel. Cordy's "Ready! O-K!
which gave me major flashbacks of my cheerleader sister. Angel's
"I'm tired of being the dead one." The correlation between
the Blinns and certain members of a family referred to as American
royalty who can get away with rape and murder. The massive irony
of Billy's lawyer getting him off and then becoming one of his
next victim. Wes' great pleasure in working in sych with Fred.
I think of the "primal misogyny" not so much as innate
hatred of women as innate hatred/fear of The Other, in this case
the other sex. The casual contempt the cabbie shows towards women,
which is something many women frequently have to deal with. "Speaking
of saliva, where is Cordelia?" "Cordelia thinks I'm
melodramatic?" And the heartbreaking moment when Wes weeps
with shame and regret.
This was a pivotal episode for Wes. We saw the darkness inside
Wes, the anger and resentment. I think he doesn't innately hate
women, but was indoctrinated to do so by his father. (Who was
rather sadistic himself.) Wes' hope for a relationship with Fred
suffered a tremendous blow-even if she forgives, can he forgive
himself? When this episode first aired, I compared "Billy"
to "Dopplegangland," and wondered if it was giving us
the kind of insights into Wes that the other episode gave us about
Willow.
[> [> Good points
-- Tchaikovsky, 15:01:02 03/12/03 Wed
I think of the "primal misogyny" not so much as innate
hatred of women as innate hatred/fear of The Other, in this case
the other sex....This was a pivotal episode for Wes. We saw the
darkness inside Wes, the anger and resentment. I think he doesn't
innately hate women, but was indoctrinated to do so by his father.
(Who was rather sadistic himself.) Wes' hope for a relationship
with Fred suffered a tremendous blow-even if she forgives, can
he forgive himself?
Well said. I think the Otherness aspect is precisely what I was
feeling- possibly even more powerfully than the misogyny, at least
in the scenes between Fred and Wesley.
Also, that is precisely the question. Will Wesley forgive himself
for the inner workings of his mind that put Fred in trouble? Because
she genuinely seems to have, but he is the only one who felt the
sensation, and knows that certain of his feelings came from him,
not just Billy.
TCH
Crazy speculation
set off by 'Forever' (spoilers up to 'Storyteller') -- Mystery,
11:33:54 03/12/03 Wed
In "Forever" there is one scene with Xander and Anya
that made my ear twitch...
ANYA: Mm. (breathing heavily, lies down and puts her head on Xander's
chest) That was different.
XANDER: (breathing heavily) Yeah. It was more ... intense.
ANYA: (nods) It's because of Joyce.
XANDER: Right. (pause) Huh?
ANYA: Well, she got me thinking ... about ... how people die all
the time, and ... how they get born too, and how you kind of need
one so you can have the other. When I think about it that way,
it ... makes death a little less sad, and ... sex a little more
exciting.
XANDER: Again I say, huh?
ANYA: Well, I just think I understand sex more now. It's not just
about two bodies smooshing together. It's about life. (Xander
looks a little alarmed) It's about *making* life.
XANDER: (alarmed) Right, when ... two people are much older, and
... way richer, and far less stupid.
ANYA: (lifts her head to look at him, laughs) Breathe. You're
turning colors. I'm not ready to make life with you, but I could.
*We* could. Life could come out of our love and our smooshing,
and that's beautiful. (Xander looks relieved) It all makes
me feel like I'm part of something bigger. Like I'm more awake
somehow. (smiles) You know?
XANDER: Yeah, I do.
Any one else wondering if Anya and Xander made a little one in
their last time? :-)
Eitherway, her mention of being part of something bigger seems
to echo the comments of Holden in Conversations With Dead People.
As a matter of fact, it reminds me of the WHOLE conversation with
Holden. Vampires have this connection to "something bigger"
and Buffy has a connection to it too, to the darkness. Buffy doesn't
think she is worthy of the love of her friends, Angel or even
Spike. She thinks she's beneath them, and from beneath you it
devours. It's all the insecurity and jealousy that allows the
First Evil power over her. When Angel was at his lowest, he was
a target for the First. When Willow was at her lowest, she gave
in to the darkness the First Evil offered. The First Evil hit
Andrew at his weak point. The First Evil is attacking Buffy at
her most vulnerable.
Spike, ironically, maybe even Anya, are the ones showing us the
way. Buffy thinks that because of her connection to the true power
of the Slayer, the essense of a demon, she's tainted and to take
more power would make her unredeemable. Willow fears that by using
powerful magic, she'll become prey to the First Evil. Angel was
ready to give up because he thought to live on would give him
another chance to become Angelus and yet again hurt people. The
First Evil preys on those who think there's no return from the
dark side. Spike and Anya disprove this. Both were demons, through
and through, yet they CHOOSE to be "useful
members of society." Same thing with Clem, he's a demon,
born and raised (we assume) yet he choses not to terrorize the
population. Whistler was another example. As is Doyle. Heck, even
Angelus is proving to be rather useful.
The First Evil gains strength from the belief that there is no
hope. Buffy's drawing too strong a line, she tried to kill Anya
in Selfless. She's refusing to be any more demonic even though
she might need the strength. She's feeding in to Willow's fear
of her own power by telling her not to use magic. Since Joyce's
death, Buffy has been at a loss. She doesn't know which decisions
are the right ones. She ran in "Spiral." She nearly
gave up in "Weight of the World." In "The Gift"
she thought that her death was the right move. Joyce always believed
in Buffy, as was evident in "School Hard" when she listened
to Buffy's commands and tried to keep Synder and everyone else
under control. Yeah, she freaked in "Beginnings" but
she was hit with a lot in a 15 minutes. Once she accepted Buffy
as the Slayer, she believed in her daughter, supported her. Joyce
was Buffy's reason. It was for Joyce that Buffy defeated Kralik
and passed her coming of age-Slayer style task. Even if we didn't
see Joyce much in season 4, Buffy still had her mother's support,
as seen in the scenes between Joyce and Faith.
Joyce's love was the only love Buffy would accept. Dawn's an exception,
but more of an extention of Joyce and Buffy. As a matter of fact,
her love for Dawn broke the spell of the Jacket from "Him."
Love is about making life. Love is opposite of destruction, which
the First Evil is trying to do. If Buffy can learn to feel love
again, she can become "more awake," she can "wake
up" and she will once again have hope. Kind of reminds me
of 1 Corinthians 13. And I know Joss and Co. are aware of the
passage because of the title "Faith, Hope and Trick"
(which is a sort of play on "Faith, Hope and Love").
I won't write the whole text because that would be long, and I'm
already losing my point.
Buffy and company are losing ground to the First Evil because
they're giving in slowly to the fear that they won't make it out
alive, at least not all of them. Buffy said that not all the girls
will make it. Andrew said he might not make it. Annabelle and
Chloe gave up and died, because they didn't have hope that they'd
make it. Spike made it out because he believed Buffy would come
for him. Willow was successful in her spell because she stop fearing
the power overwhelming her, and she took control.
Buffy and the group need to accept their destiny, they are not
all "destiny free." They have a purpose. They just need
hope, they need a reason, they need love. They need to embrace
their hearts.
[> Cool idea, but --
lunasea, 15:24:25 03/12/03 Wed
She thinks she's beneath them, and from beneath you it devours.
It's all the insecurity and jealousy that allows the First Evil
power over her. When Angel was at his lowest, he was a target
for the First. When Willow was at her lowest, she gave in to the
darkness the First Evil offered. The First Evil hit Andrew at
his weak point. The First Evil is attacking Buffy at her most
vulnerable.
But the phrase is "From beneath you, it devours." It
is refering to the First, per CwDP. It isn't from beneath them
it devours. It is From beneath YOU.
In order to get Angel to hurt Buffy, it might look like it made
him feel inferior, but it was saying as a man he was inferior.
As a vampire, he was the best. It wasn't saying you were evil,
beneath good. It was saying he was really really good at evil.
It was trying to build him up. It wanted to make him higher than
he felt. As a man he was nothing, but as a demon he was the best.
Same thing with Andrew. It offered to make him a god.
Good post, I just disagree with the idea that Buffy thinking she
is beneath people is what is hurting her. It is the opposite.
She has an inferiority complex about her superiority complex,
but the superiority is the root. Everything she has done this
season comes from superiority.
The First plays on disconnection. It can get that many ways. It
will be manifest symbolically some way on the show. Psychologically
it plays on Buffy's superiority complex.
An aside, it is interesting that Angel is returned to earth from
above.
[> Not so crazy ; )
-- Scroll, 16:33:43 03/12/03 Wed
Any one else wondering if Anya and Xander made a little one
in their last time? :-)
Oooh, I hadn't thought about that! Would be kinda interesting
and would maybe give us a chance to have one couple live happily
ever after.
I don't have the time to write a longer response, but I like what
you had to say about relearning love. Hearts and love are definitely
going to be key, IMO.
Love is about making life. Love is opposite of destruction,
which the First Evil is trying to do. If Buffy can learn to feel
love again, she can become "more awake," she can "wake
up" and she will once again have hope. Kind of reminds me
of 1 Corinthians 13. And I know Joss and Co. are aware of the
passage because of the title "Faith, Hope and Trick"
(which is a sort of play on "Faith, Hope and Love").
I won't write the whole text because that would be long, and I'm
already losing my point.
Just felt this bore repeating. Very nice analysis, Mystery : )
[> So an orgy on the top
of the Hellmouth is the solution? ;) -- lakrids, 18:14:39
03/12/03 Wed
[> [> Apocalyptic sex:
Roger McGough's 'Lunchtime' -- Tchaikovsky, 02:29:47 03/13/03
Thu
AT LUNCHTIME
by Roger McGough
When the bus stopped suddenly
to avoid damaging
a mother and child in the road,
the younglady in the green hat sitting opposite,
was thrown across me,
and not being one to miss an opportunity
i started to make love.
At first, she resisted,
saying that it was too early in the morning,
and too soon after breakfast,
and anyway, she found me repulsive.
But when i explained that this being a nuclearage
the world was going to end at lunchtime,
she took off her green hat,
put her busticket into her pocket
and joined in the exercise.
The buspeople,
and there were many of them,
were shockedandsurprised,
and amusedandannoyed.
But when word got around
that the world was going to
end at lunchtime,
they put their pride in their pockets
with their bustickets
and made love one with the other.
And even the busconductor,
feeling left out,
climbed into the cab,
and struck up some sort of relationship with the driver.
That night,
on the bus coming home,
we were all a little embarrassed.
Especially me and the younglady in the green hat.
And we all started to say in different ways
how hasty and foolish we had been.
But then, always having been a bitofalad,
i stood up and said it was a pity
that the world didn't nearly end every lunchtime,
and that we could always pretend.
And then it happened . . .
Quick asa crash
we all changed partners,
and soon the bus was aquiver
with white, mothball bodies doing naughty things.
And the next day
and everyday
In everybus
In everystreet
In everytown
In everycountry
People pretended
that the world was coming to an end at lunchtime.
It still hasn't.
Although in a way it has.
TCH....;-)
[> [> [> Three cheers
for happy exercise :-) -- V, 02:43:40 03/13/03 Thu
[> [> [> LOL! Great
poem! -- ponygirl, 07:53:56 03/13/03 Thu
[> [> [> LOL. Thank
you. And one in return -- Rahael, 08:15:13 03/13/03 Thu
Okay, it has nothing about apocalypses in it, but it is a little
naughty in the most charming way! And it makes me smile!
The things about you I appreciate
May seem indelicate:
I'd like to find you in the shower
And chase the soap for half an hour.
I'd like to have you in my power
And see your eyes dilate.
I'd like to have your back to scour
And other parts to lubricate.
Sometimes I feel it is my fate
To chase you screaming up a tower
Or make you cower
By asking you to differentiate
Nietzsche from Schopenhauer.
I'd like successfully to guess your weight
And win you at a fete.
I'd like to offer you a flower.
I like the hair upon your shoulders,
Falling like water over boulders.
I like the shoulders, too: they are essential.
Your collar-bones have great potential
(I'd like all your particulars in folders
Marked Confidential).
I like your cheeks, I like your nose,
I like the way your lips disclose
The neat arrangement of your teeth
(Half above and half beneath)
In rows.
I like your eyes, I like their fringes.
The way they focus on me gives me twinges.
Your upper arms drive me berserk.
I like the way your elbows work,
On hinges.
I like your wrists, I like your glands,
I like the fingers on your hands.
I'd like to teach them how to count,
And certain things we might exchange,
Something familiar for something strange.
I'd like to give you just the right amount
And get some change.
I like it when you tilt your cheek up.
I like the way you nod and hold a teacup.
I like your legs when you unwind them.
Even in trousers I don't mind them.
I like each softly-moulded kneecap.
I like the little crease behind them.
I'd always know, without recap,
Where to find them.
I like the sculpture of your ears.
I like the way your profile disappears
Whenever you decide to turn and face me.
I'd like to cross two hemispheres
And have you chase me.
I'd like to smuggle you across frontiers
Or sail with you at night into Tangiers.
I'd like you to embrace me.
I'd like to see you ironing your skirt
And cancelling other dates.
I'd like to button up your shirt.
I like the way your chest inflates.
I'd like to soothe you when you're hurt
Or frightened senseless by invertebrates.
I'd like you even if you were malign
And had a yen for sudden homicide.
I'd let you put insecticide
Into my wine.
I'd even like you if you were the Bride
Of Frankenstein
Or something ghoulish out of Mamoulian's
Jekyll and Hyde.
I'd even like you as my Julian
Of Norwich or Cathleen ni Houlihan.
How melodramatic
If you were something muttering in attics
Like Mrs Rochester or a student of Boolean
Mathematics.
You are the end of self-abuse.
You are the eternal feminine.
I'd like to find a good excuse
To call on you and find you in.
I'd like to put my hand beneath your chin,
And see you grin.
I'd like to taste your Charlotte Russe,
I'd like to feel my lips upon your skin,
I'd like to make you reproduce.
I'd like you in my confidence.
I'd like to be your second look.
I'd like to let you try the French Defence
And mate you with my rook.
I'd like to be your preference
And hence
I'd like to be around when you unhook.
I'd like to be your only audience,
The final name in your appointment book,
Your future tense.
John Fuller
[> [> [> [> And
this--but where's one about a man? -- luna, 10:21:26 03/13/03
Thu
I Knew a Woman
(Theodore Roethke)
I knew a woman, lovely in her bones,
When small birds sighed, she would sigh back at them;
Ah, when she moved, she moved more ways than one:
The shapes a bright container can contain!
Of her choice virtues only gods should speak,
Or English poets who grew up on Greek
(I'd have them sing in chorus, cheek to cheek.)
How well her wishes went! She stroked my chin,
She taught me Turn, and Counter-turn, and stand;
She taught me Touch, that undulant white skin:
I nibbled meekly from her proffered hand;
She was the sickle; I, poor I, the rake,
Coming behind her for her pretty sake
(But what prodigious mowing did we make.)
Love likes a gander, and adores a goose:
Her full lips pursed, the errant note to seize;
She played it quick, she played it light and loose;
My eyes, they dazzled at her flowing knees;
Her several parts could keep a pure repose,
Or one hip quiver with a mobile nose
(She moved in circles, and those circles moved.)
Let seed be grass, and grass turn into hay:
I'm martyr to a motion not my own;
What's freedom for? To know eternity.
I swear she cast a shadow white as stone.
But who would count eternity in days?
These old bones live to learn her wanton ways:
(I measure time by how a body sways.)
[> [> [> [> [>
Now there's a challenge -- Tchaikovsky, 11:19:59 03/13/03
Thu
My best attempt off the top of my head- not Plath's best poem
by any stretch of the imagination. There has to be a better one,
if anyone can take a moment to think of it.
Ode for Ted
From under the crunch of my man's boot
green oat-sprouts jut;
he names a lapwing, starts rabbits in a rout
legging it most nimble
to sprigged hedge of bramble,
stalks red fox, shrewd stoat.
Loam-humps, he says, moles shunt
up from delved worm-haunt;
blue fur, moles have; hefting chalk-hulled flint
he with rock splits open
knobbed quartz; flayed colors ripen
rich, brown, sudden in sunlight.
For his least look, scant acres yield:
each finger-furrowed field
heaves forth stalk, leaf, fruit-nubbed emerald;
bright grain sprung so rarely
he hauls to his will early;
at his hand's staunch hest, birds build.
Ringdoves roost well within his wood,
shirr songs to suit which mood
he saunters in; how but most glad
could be this adam's woman
when all earth his words do summon
leaps to laud such man's blood!
TCH
[> [> [> [> [>
[> O I like it ! Thanks! -- luna, 11:25:47 03/13/03
Thu
[> [> [> [> [>
[> How about Dorothy Parker? -- pilgrim, 17:25:38
03/13/03 Thu
It's not apocalyptic, but . . .
Pictures in the Smoke
Oh, gallant was the first love, and glittering and fine;
The second love was water, in a clear white cup;
The third love was his, and the fourth was mine;
And after that, I always get them all mixed up.
[Has Buffy had four loves?]
Or this from Miss Emily Dickinson, that naughty and often apocalyptic
poet:
Wild Nights--Wild Nights!
Were I with thee
Wild Nights should be
Our luxury!
Futile--the Winds--
To a Heart in port--
Done with the Compass--
Done with the Chart!
Rowing in Eden--
Ah, the Sea!
Might I but moor--Tonight--
In Thee!
[None of our characters in the Buffyverse have hearts in port,
do they? The winds (of passion? loss? fear? joy?) aren't futile
to them, but carry them along. But maybe they're looking for ports
to habor in, temporarily? I like Dickinson's combination of innocence
and wildness, too, and the suggestion that these aren't necessarily
incompatible. Not unlike the bus poem, which I loved.]
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> ee cummings -- MsGiles (going misty), 03:01:11
03/14/03 Fri
great poems. this one tops for me:
love's function is to fabricate unknowness
(known being wishless;but love,all of wishing)
though life's lived wrongsideout,sameness chokes oneness
truth is confused with fact,fish boast of fishing
and men are caught by worms(love may not care
if time totters,light droops,all measures bend
nor marvel if a thought should weigh a star
--dreads dying least;land,less,that death should end)
how lucky lovers are(whose selves abide
under whatever shall discovered be)
whose ignorance each breathing dares to hide
more than most fabulous wisdom fears to see
(who laugh and cry) who dream,create and kill
while the whole moves;and while every part stands still.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> Wow! -- Tchaikovsky, 04:09:09 03/14/03
Fri
I seemed to have inadvertently started a poetry of love sub-thread.
Enjoying all people's favourites, and I really love cummings'
fluid language. With his lack of capitals, the flow of his verse
is somewhat more like words sound spoken than when written.
TCH
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> There's more where that came from
-- luna, 05:12:00 03/14/03 Fri
cummings was a brilliant lyric love poet. He has lots more, though
this is a really nice one. If you liked this, read more! If this
thread weren't about to sink into archives, I'd also post from
Auden...
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> The Titanic syndrome -- Tchaikovsky,
08:07:14 03/14/03 Fri
Well, a thread about to be pulled down has never stopped me posting.
I'm going to guess your Auden poem, and if I'm wrong, you can
post yours, (assuming the thread is still around)
Lay your sleeping head, my love,
Human on my faithless arm;
Time and fevers burn away
Individual beauty from
Thoughtful children, and the grave
Proves the child ephemeral:
But in my arms till break of day
Let the living creature lie,
Mortal, guilty, but to me
The entirely beautiful.
Soul and body have no bounds:
To lovers as they lie upon
Her tolerant enchanted slope
In their ordinary swoon,
Grave the vision Venus sends
Of supernatural sympathy,
Universal love and hope;
While an abstract insight wakes
Among the glaciers and the rocks
The hermit's sensual ecstasy.
Certainty, fidelity
On the stroke of midnight pass
Like vibrations of a bell,
And fashionable madmen raise
Their pedantic boring cry:
Every farthing of the cost,
All the dreaded cards foretell,
Shall be paid, but from this night
Not a whisper, not a thought,
Not a kiss nor look be lost.
Beauty, midnight, vision dies:
Let the winds of dawn that blow
Softly round your dreaming head
Such a day of sweetness show
Eye and knocking heart may bless,
Find the mortal world enough;
Noons of dryness see you fed
By the involuntary powers,
Nights of insult let you pass
Watched by every human love.
-- W.H.Auden
Almost perfect.
TCH
[> [> Yes! So Buffy can
reclaim the erotic feminine... -- Caroline (working on Buffy
in S7), 09:10:25 03/13/03 Thu
starwars and
angel -- 110v3w1110w, 15:12:44 03/12/03 Wed
did anyone else think that when gunn first tossed fred the dart
gun that she looked a hell of a lot like princess leia ????
[> Spoilers for new Angel
ep above? -- Masq, 15:26:16 03/12/03 Wed
I'm not sure, but I don't remember Gunn tossing Fred a dart gun
before.
[> Yes, spoiler above. but
minor -- Scroll, 15:59:13 03/12/03 Wed
You weren't the only one to think so, 110v3w1110w. It was kinda
funny, actually.
[> Re: starwars and angel
-- Utopia, 16:37:27 03/12/03 Wed
Actually, yes. Yes I did.
Think it means anything? ;)
[> [> Re: starwars and
angel -- Slainey, 19:14:00 03/12/03 Wed
I thought so too. I said "Shouldn't that be a blaster. Help
me Charles Gunn, you're my only hope."
[> If Fred is supposed to
be... (spoilers for tonite's Angel) -- Scroll, 17:18:45
03/12/03 Wed
If Fred is Princess Leia, then who is Luke Skywalker? Who is Hans
Solo? Is Wes Hans Solo, or is Gunn? Which is her brother(-figure)
and which is her lover? Despite Wesley's lone gunman, rogue hunter
mentality as of late, I'd still say he is most like Fred/Leia
in terms of intelligence, personality, attitudes to vengeance,
etc. Whereas Gunn is the Hans Solo cowboy-like stranger who is
exactly not what Fred/Leia was expecting.
[> Re: starwars and angel
-- M, 20:32:11 03/12/03 Wed
If Fred is Princess Leia, then that would make Gun - Han Solo,
and Wes is Luke.
"Yes Gun, of course I love Wes, he's my brother."
It has been said that they have much in common.
I can just imagine Lorne and Angel talking about needing Wes to
decipher some ancient manuscript.
Lorne: That boy is our last hope.
Angel : no, there is another.
No wait, they already did that on the other show.
[> [> Masq, don't miss
this! -- Vickie, 22:39:05 03/12/03 Wed
Somebody talking about AtS, and referring to "the other show"?
[> [> [> I'll get
excited when they refer to it as 'that other show' -- Masq,
03:53:10 03/13/03 Thu
It has a more dismissive ring to it.
Turn-about is fair play.
Masq, tired of people dissing my boy
[> Re: starwars and angel
-- Darby, 09:58:09 03/13/03 Thu
It's the hair - piled up on each side of her head. When she came
out of the office, I said to Sara, "Hey, it's Princess Leia!"
At least they weren't the classic Bagel Locks (or was that lox-?).
I expect someone noticed it on set and purposely blocked the toss
to look like SW. Maybe if they had noticed in make-up they might
have changed her wardrobe to enlarge the wink-wink.
O/T: Elizabeth
Smart has been found alive! -- dub, 16:15:25 03/12/03 Wed
Just checking this out now...apparently she was found during a
routine traffic stop in Salt Lake City...I'm gonna check CNN for
more...
Yahooooooo!!
;o)
[> Watching the news right
now, so glad! -- Scroll, 16:20:24 03/12/03 Wed
I can't believe they found her after such a long time! Nine months,
I believe. Very happy for her family. Even if they had promised
themselves not to give up hope, nine months is a long time to
keep hoping. She doesn't seem to be hurt either. I'm very glad
they've got their daughter back safe and sound.
[> YAY -- Alison, 16:22:11
03/12/03 Wed
doesn't it just restore your faith in...just about everything!?
[> [> Exactly...
-- Random, 19:16:00 03/12/03 Wed
At least for now. But when I saw the headline -- on my way here
-- it was just about nicest bit of news I've heard in a good long
time. My faith in benevolence has been restored a bit. As I mentioned
to Little Bit, I didn't think this sort of thing ever happened
anymore. So here's to at least one night of sleeping a little
more contentedly.
[> Re: O/T: Elizabeth Smart
has been found alive! -- Briar (great minds, dub...), 16:24:23
03/12/03 Wed
I'm glad that someone posted this, because I didn't know if I
should... But for some reason it seems fitting for this board,
since the board is about the fact that even in the everyday world
Miraculous happenings are sometimes real and Hope can be found
even in the face of extreme odds.
The odds of Elizabeth being found (let alone found ALIVE) were
astronomical after this amount of time.... And yet here it is!
Alive, well and safe and heading home ot be with her parents and
family.
5 hours to
Angel... Last week my head exploded: (spoils for Last week's Angel)
-- Briar Rose, 16:18:50 03/12/03 Wed
It literally exploded. I felt like Chipped Spike going after Willow
in the dorm room....
Faith as an honorable warrior, willing to help Angel and the rest
because he 'cared enough to do the best by her.'????
Wesley becomes Holtz in the confidence building pep talk department.
Cordy turns into the EvilBeastMaster/Mother.
Conner finds out that he and Daddy share the same taste in Powerful
Deamon Energy Turned to the Good Women.
Lorne drops his "Mr. Peaceful" and truly let's his Deathwa
Clan anger out toward Conner.
And Angelus willingly helps the good guys out with a major
bad sitch by taking out Stoneface with the bone dagger!
Man... I think I uncovered the specific origins of Excedrin Headache
number 666.
Now tonight I am waiting for all of this to start to make SENSE
in some delightfully twisted and convoluted ME kinda way.
[> Try reading my analysis
-- Masq, 16:43:15 03/12/03 Wed
I don't think Angelus was trying to help the good guys, at least.
Salvage
[> Reasons upon reasons.
(Spoilers up to 'Release') -- Dannyblue, 23:47:51 03/12/03
Wed
Actually, it all makes sense when you look back on everything
that's happened in the past.
Faith as an honorable warrior, willing to help Angel and the
rest because he 'cared enough to do the best by her.'????
"Sanctuary" and "Judgement" (as well as some
events on BtVS) pretty well paved the way for the Faith we see
today. I think there was always this sense that she just wanted
someone to believe in her. To stand by her and never give up on
her. That's why she was so loyal to the Mayor, and why she is
so loyal to Angel. As far as we know, these are the only two people
who have never given up on her. I think she respects Angel even
more because he's never given up on her despite the fact that
she's hurt him and tried to kill him. When everyone else was saying
she was beyond redemption, he was willing to risk his own life
to give her a chance.
Wesley becomes Holtz in the confidence building pep talk department.
Every season, Wesley became a more powerful, inspirational leader.
For example, back in Pylea, he gave Angel the confidence to call
on his demon to fight Groo. He convinced Angel that he could control
the demon...even though Wesley later revealed that he didn't quite
believe it himself.
Also in Pylea, Wesley was willing to sacrifice some of the rebels
he was leading for the greater good.
So, Wesley has those leadership traits. Now, he's basically Faith's
Watcher again. And experience is allowing him to put his Watcher
training to better use.
And Angelus willingly helps the good guys out with a major
bad sitch by taking out Stoneface with the bone dagger!
Angelus definately doesn't kill the Beast to help the good guys.
He does it because he wanted to. Because he knew he would enjoy
it. Because he doesn't like the Beast, and for darn sure doesn't
intend to take orders from him. Because Angelus knew he couldn't
fight the Beast and wanted him out of the way. (Notice he never
comes to blows with the Beast, but lures Faith into doing it for
him.) Because Angelus likes to be the biggest bully on the block,
and he didn't want to share the title with the demon. Because
the Beast was about to kill Faith, and Angelus wanted that honor
for himself...after she was softened up a bit. Because the Beast
pissed him off by not revealing who his master was. Because Angelus
can now brag that he did something all of AI (including Angel)
and a Slayer couldn't.
There were a lot of reasons why Angelus killed the Beast. Being
the hero wasn't one of them.
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| More March 2003