January 2003 posts
Something Lilah said intruiged me (spoilery speculation) -- Majin Gojira, 10:45:37 01/16/03 Thu
While I was watching the episode, Lilah said a very Season-encompasing line. It was after She and Wesley escaped WR&H.
She told him that "No matter how much white you put in, you will always be a shade of gray" or something along those lines.
This season we've seen pretty much all of the characters get some Dark put into them, or that dark explored.
Fred - The Portal-guy she was ready to kill
Gunn - Killing the portal guy FOR fred so she wouldn't become a 'Shade of gray' (didn't really work)
Wesley - Well known already
Cordy - Why she returned? Sleeping w/ Conner.
Conner - Blame it on the parents.
Angel - Like we don't already know.
Hell, even Gwen (the electro-girl) was technically a shade of gray (albiet a dark grey).
Lorn's pretty much the only one W/O a Darkness to taint him, really.
Many of the characters already have dealt with/begun to deal with their 'taint', what does that mean for the future for those that have not yet dealt with it this season?
It appears that once 'tainted' it is not going to be very possible to be 'all white' again, according to Lilah's line. (which, in order to be 'pure', she chose to be dark completly instead of trying to put in any white). I believe that the other characters will be faced with similar choices throughout the season and (Insert well known spoiler here) with Faiths return, this makes perfect sense.
Comments? Opinions? Confessions fo Guilt? Rebuttles? Anything?
Hello?
...
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Re: Something Lilah said intruiged me (spoilery speculation) -- Slaine, 11:29:16 01/16/03 Thu
You say gray like it's a bad thing. Lilah was trying to make it sound bad like as long as you jaywalked you might as well commit murder.
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Re: Lilah's comment (SPOILERS for Habeas Corpses) -- Robert, 11:36:14 01/16/03 Thu
>>> It appears that once 'tainted' it is not going to be very possible to be 'all white' again, according to Lilah's line. (which, in order to be 'pure', she chose to be dark completly instead of trying to put in any white).
It is certainly true that when we makes mistakes, we cannot subsequently un-make them. The memories of such mistakes will stay with us and haunt us all our lives. However, we can still choose to be a better person in the future, and we can still be worthy of forgiveness.
Lilah's choice is to continue working for those who would destroy the world. Curious! What is in it for Lilah (I wonder)? Regardless, I suspect that forgiveness will be harder to come by as a result.
>>> Lorn's pretty much the only one W/O a Darkness to taint him, really.
Maybe he doesn't have a darkness in him (whatever that means), but I would suggest that there are at least a few memories he would like to purge, such as his little jaunt to Las Vegas.
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Re: Lilah's comment (SPOILERS for Habeas Corpses) -- Kenny, 15:11:05 01/16/03 Thu
No argument about the ability to make oneself better. Thing is, I don't think she's (ultimately) talking about actions, I think she's talking about perceptions. Even to the point that he kidnapped Connor, I'm sure Wesley saw himself as a white hat. Leading a bunch of peasants to their deaths? Done for the ultimate good, so it was the right thing to do. That's why it's been so easy for Wesley to act "cold-blooded" in his decisions--he just saw that, even if it hurt some people, he was doing the right thing.
But that changed after kidnapping Connor. All of his friends saw it as the wrong thing to do. He wasn't a white hat anymore, but he was doing it for the right reasons. And when you realize that you are grey, I think Lilah's right, there's no turning back.
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which brings up... -- anom, 16:44:54 01/16/03 Thu
"Lilah's choice is to continue working for those who would destroy the world. Curious! What is in it for Lilah (I wonder)?"
Lilah also mention that something (can't remember what, but I'm sure someone can supply it) would please the senior partners because it saved money. If the end of the world was imminent, why would they worry about saving money?
A study in contrasts -- Darby, 11:26:29 01/16/03 Thu
As many people have noted, the typical seasons for the two shows involves reflections and thematic similarities. I'm going to try to contrast Showtime and Habeas Corpses. I'll try not to beat any points beyond recognition, but I can't promise anything...
Openings - Buffy beats up on evil Bringers, while Angel beats up on defenseless masonry.
Bedroom scenes - Cordy pulls away from Connor, alienating him, while Willow gets to know Kennedy, drawing her in.
Wesley pulls away from Lilah, putting up barriers based on morals. The Scoobs pull together telepathically based on past experience.
Buffy has dissension in the ranks while the old friends draw together. Angel's group is pretty cohesive, even Connor, except for the old friends: Cordy-Angel and Wes-Gunn. On Buffy, the core group stays mostly together; on Angel, individuals often branch out on their own.
The Evil Toughie on Buffy is all about coming after the heroes, while the ET on Angel not only largely ignores the heroes, it seems to be avoiding killing them. The UberVamp has no motives beyond what it is assigned; the Beast seems to have some complex agenda. The classic series bad guys are co-opted by the First and eliminated by the Beast.
AI wades into the fray with no real plan, and escapes mostly by avoiding a fight and through luck; the Scoobs have a definite-though-questionable plan predicated on a big fight, and seem to succeed because of it.
Both seek to rescue a key member of the group, somehow intimately connected with the BB, but Spike is being held after being taken while Connor is just locked in after purposely coming in. Spike fears being left behind, being insignificant, while Connor fears being responsible for everything.
The Scoobs run from the pursuit of Uber, but lead it into a trap; AI goes looking for the Beast, although that's not really what they want to find.
Buffy takes the responsibility all on herself - Angel splits his team up, with the humans having an equally hazardous task.
The action plays out in a well-lit hole in the ground versus a darkened office building, a classic punch-out against a classic boogey-men-behind-doors. The Uber is weakened in the setting, but nothing seems to weaken the Beast.
The supporting cast Bringers largely stay out of the way, while the zombies become the major threat to the group.
In the end, Buffy confronts the Uber and triumphs; AI confronts the Beast and luckily escapes with no blows delivered. The seemingly-invincible First remains intact but pissed-off; the seemingly all-powerful Girl in the White Room seems defeated but on AI's side.
On BtVS, there is a lighter subplot involving Giles and Anya; on AtS, the main action is unrelenting and all the more tension-filled because of it. Some major questions get addressed by the Buffy subplot - we only wind up with more questions on Angel.
And yet with all of this, the two episodes felt very much of a piece. Anyone want to guess why that would be?
- Darby, feeling a bit of whiplash.
...The Beast has huge clonkin' feet (bad choice of camera angles there), while the First has itty-bitty Buffy feet...
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Re: A study in contrasts -- leslie, 11:43:23 01/16/03 Thu
Something that struck me last night was how incredibly alientated everyone at AI is, and that they've all done it by themselves. I was thinking that the only time we've seen that much alienation on BtVS was The Yoko Factor, and that was because Spike stirred it up. However, the Scoobies all admitted that he only brought to the surface tensions that were lurking under the surface, anyway. So, my question is, are the Scoobies just better at denial than the Fang Gang or are the latter just less integtrated to begin with (not having spent their formative years fighting evil together)?
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Re: A study in contrasts -- Arethusa, 12:18:27 01/16/03 Thu
The second one. But another factor is one of the themes of AtS is adults cut off from their old lives, bonding together to become a family. Therefore, the problems they encounter will, for dramatic purposes, tend to break down the familial bond.
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Troubled relationships in the buffyverse -- Tess, 14:30:00 01/16/03 Thu
""So, my question is, are the Scoobies just better at denial than the Fang Gang or are the latter just less integtrated to begin with (not having spent their formative years fighting evil together)?""
IMO all that stuff Spike stirred to life in Yoko Factor is still simmering. Its like they admitted that there were problems within the ranks but never did anything to bridge the gap. The Scoobs haven't been open and honest with each other in years, if ever. Willow and Buffy never discuss what they are feeling anymore. For years now, they've both gone out of their way to hide the truth of life choices that they think the other will disapprove. Willow hid the start of her relationship with Tara from Buffy. Buffy started hiding things from Willow way back when Angel came back from hell and than again when she fell for Spike.
As for the fang gang, I was so happy when Angel told them to get over it. Gunn's insecurity is way past worn thin. As for the way they mesh as a team, they are all spinning their heels waiting for a leader to lead them. Wes was their leader, not Angel. Everyone kinda assumes Angel's resumed leadership of the team, but other than barking out tense orders when he has no other option, I haven't seen it. In fact, Angel's so busy brooding over how messed up his relationships with Conner, Cordy and Wes are, that he's ignoring his relationship with Gunn, Fred and Lorne.
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Re: Troubled relationships in the buffyverse -- JM, 17:44:34 01/16/03 Thu
Yeah, I kinda noticed that Angel isn't consistent with taking back the leadership. Everyone reacts with relief when he does, but he's often distracted by other concerns. In fact in Ground State, he and Gunn are just leaning back and letting Fred be the boss. And for the first half of AN he's driving Lorne nuts with his lack of momentum.
I'm working on an essay inspired by the food topic about how AI is actually an unstable family substitute where the members keep transgressing the boundaries of their self-assigned roles. Slow going. Tune in next year.
I think their more significant alienation has a couple of sources. For one thing they don't have the Scoobies history. Of the core four scoobs, two go back twenty years, two have a relationship proscribed at least in part by thousands of years of tradition. That gives them a little more cushion when there are strains. Plus they all have JOBS outside of the group. Something that relieves some of the strain. Plus they have at least some external family structure, even if it isn't always hospitable. The main relationship is a trio, with Giles and Buffy trading off the leadership responsibility. All the other members revolve like satellites around the core.
At AI they are family and vocation, there are no outside release valves short of periodic exile. Plus the members of AI are all refugees of their traditional families and they seem to be insisting on trying to recreate a hierarchical family unit of some kind. But because it is a family of choice, it is even more unstable than a genetic family. And sharp tensions tend to lead to incomplete breaks, rather than just being suppressed, rechanneled, and subtly renegotiated. A triangle is a more stable structure than the 3D construct that AI keeps trying to build.
OK this should make clear why the essay is going so slow, my thesis is a bit murky.
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Wow, I can't wait to read it! (spoilers for Angel S4) -- Scroll, 20:31:04 01/16/03 Thu
Just from what you've described here, this will be an amazing essay. You're right that the Fang Gang is the purposeful construction of a family unit, one that constantly needs to be renegotiated. Which is part of what makes Angel so unique as a TV show. The power distribution, the hierarchical structures of Angel Investigations is fluid, evolving with each new situation. In some ways this is good; it means no one person can lead the entire gang to destruction (hopefully). But it also means that if nobody takes the lead, the gang will flounder, as you've noted in S4.
S1: Angel, Cordelia, Doyle. Angel is most definitely "boss" with the business cards to prove it. He is clearly the patriarch.
S1-S2: Angel, Cordelia, Wesley. Wes, even more than Doyle, sees Angel as an authority figure.
S2: Angel, Cordelia, Wesley, Gunn. Despite being the leader of his own crew, Gunn begins integrating. Angel acts like a crazy dictator; Wes, Cordy, and Gunn question his executive decisions; Angel fires them. Wes becomes leader. Gunn steps down as leader of his gang. Later, Angel rejoins the gang, but not as boss.
S3: Angel, Cordy, Wes, Gunn, Fred. Wesley is boss. He's a pretty good boss, IHMO. Except when it comes to daddy issues.
Late S3: Angel takes over again, but then gets dumped into the ocean.
S4: Fred, Gunn, Connor. Gunn and Fred share authority and parental responsibilities. Angel returns but doesn't seem ready to take leadership. Fred makes the plans in "Ground State". Angel goes on vacation in "The House Always Wins". Goes back to being "boss" in "Slouching" - present.
Except Angel's being kinda wishy-washy as leader. He's not really inspiring the troops the way Buffy is. Who can take over for him? Wesley? I'd like that but I doubt Gunn will follow him. Cordelia? Um, please no. Fred? Considering how close she was to a nervous breakdown in GS, I hope not. Lorne? Well, not if they want to actually fight this Beast guy. Gunn? Issues. And Connor is just too inexperienced. My bet is Angel will smarten up fast, or Wes and Angel will share "boss" status.
(After writing all this, I now realise I've gotten kinda off topic re: families. Still, the working relationships are key to the Fang Gang family.)
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Scooby, Family, or Something Else? A.I. Group Dynamics -- Valheru, 01:58:13 01/17/03 Fri
I'll second Scroll's nomination for the essay, JM. Sounds insightful.
I think you're onto something, Scroll, with the whole "leadership by committee" idea. The Fang Gang does seem to flounder without a leader, but I think they would function best without one. It's all in perception.
I see the Fang Gang struggling to form a unit out of various ideas of what they think a unit is. What they NEED isn't what they KNOW or what they WANT, and therein lies the problem.
The three "founding" (if you exclude Doyle) members of AI--Angel, Cordelia, and Wesley--come from a background where the best, most stable unit they knew of was the Scooby Gang. The Scoobies, despite all their faults, are a pretty damn good group. The core Scoobies (Buffy, Xander, Willow, and Giles) were pretty solid members when the AI refugees knew them. Excluding Buffy's L.A. Summer after S2 (which wasn't caused by Scooby tension anyway), the core Scoobies only broke up once briefly (Xander's exclusion in "The Zeppo") and only had a few moments of true group tension (the Angel arguments in "Becoming" and "Revelations," and Buffy's intervention in "Dead Man's Party"). The only ones who ever broke from the Scooby Gang prior to AtS were actually the three AtS refugees: Angel becoming Angelus (though, again, not because of group tension), Cordelia breaking up with Xander, and Wesley being fired by Buffy. In the past year alone, Wesley, Cordelia, Lorne, and Connor have left AI because of group dysfunction. So as far as the Fang Gang knows, the most stable group any of them has ever seen is the Scoobies (well, unless you count Angelus/Darla/Spike/Dru as ever being "stable").
Another thing the Scooby Gang showed them was a very organic command structure, something the Fang Gang desperately needs to find. Most of the time, it was Giles->Buffy->Willow->Xander. Sometimes, Buffy assumed command. But there were certain situations where Willow would lead (usually when Buffy and Giles got in power struggles), and even Xander got to step up (the Mayor battle in "Graduation Day"). Geez, even Oz would lead for a while (coordinating the research in "Gingerbread" and his solution to the save Willow/no save Willow argument in "Choices"). The reason they could get away with such fluid leadership was trust.
What the Fang Gang KNOWS is a good unit is the Scoobies. However, the things that keep them from Scooby-ness are trust and satisfaction. Angel might trust Gunn, Fred, or Cordy with his life, but he's not at a point where he would trust their leadership. Would Cordy follow Fred? Wes follow Gunn? As for satisfaction...that brings us to what the Fang Gang WANTS as a unit.
AI wants a family. As ME repeatedly showed us in S3, the Fang Gang has settled into clearly discernible family roles: Father (Angel), Mother (Cordelia), Older Brother (Wesley), Younger Brother (Gunn), Younger Sister (Fred), Son (Connor), and Funny Drunken Uncle (Lorne). You could even say that there's an Older Evil Sister (Lilah), Evil Twin Father (Angelus), Absentee Mother (Darla), and Dead Oldest Brother (Dolye). AI is trying to replace the families they have lost (or don't want) with a chosen family.
The problem I see with this is that the group is dictating roles, rather than the individuals. What happens when Cordelia doesn't want to be in the Mother role anymore? After a foray into Heaven and a bout of amnesia, Cordy rejects her Son. What happens when Wesley goes overboard with the Older Brother role? He betrays the Father, kidnaps the Son, and alienates the family. And Angel famously struggles in the Father role. Strangely enough, the only AI member who actually *has* functioned well within a pseudo-family environment is Angel's *other* self, Angelus, who led Mother Darla, Sister Dru, and Brother Spike on a merry family picnic for 100 years. The Fang Gang is too volatile right now for any preconceived family configurations to work.
What do they NEED? I'd say a combination of Scooby and Family. The family unit is what they need as a basis for their group, but they need the improvisational skills of the "friend" unit. First, they all need to be comfortable in whatever role is required of them. If Angel needs to play Sibling for a while, he should he able to do that, just as Fred or Gunn should be able to play Parent. Second, they need to trust in each others' ability to assume different roles. Cordy must accept Fred as Parent and Angel as Sibling, just as Wes must accept Angel as Parent and Cordy as Sibling. Once the Fang Gang can shift roles, as the Scoobies are capable, then they can begin to alter the unit to fit their personal needs. Until then, the unit is just going to keep falling apart.
Ideally, it gets to a point where the lines blur. Where there is no need to assign a "leader" role because they can function well enough as a group that it becomes irrelevant. I doubt we'll ever see that, since it's pretty similar to the group precision of insects, and I don't think humans (or human-like creatures) are capable of that sort of dynamic. But the closer AI gets to that, the better they'll be. Or they can let Lorne lead--he likes to be in the front of a crowd, anyway.
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Re: Scooby, Family, or Something Else? A.I. Group Dynamics -- JM, 06:04:12 01/17/03 Fri
Thanks, guys. This stuff is really good. I've noted some of this stuff, but I'll definitely be drawing on your posts for inspiration. I'm not so sure it will be brilliant, right now I just want it to be finished! Maybe this weekend.
I think that they do need to learn to get more comfortable with role blurring. But each members' desire for a stable family structure leads them to fight it when it happens, which then leads to even more tension. Which then leads to bad things and exile. More maturing needed. And definitely more trust. Trust is defintely a hug Scoobie advantage.
OK back to work for me.
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keep writing, JM! -- Flo, 05:54:39 01/17/03 Fri
I'll third the support for your essay -- it's a brilliant connection to follow, IMHO. Some random thoughts for you:
I'm remembering the food discussion a few days ago -- it evolved into a discussion of Angel's appetite and the destruction inherent to it. SO, I've been thinking about Angel's inability to deal clearly or openly with the C/C incident in HC. In so many ways Angel still behaves like an adolescent, which is appropriate given that vamps have been well-established as representations of arrested development. Even with his soul-having, he still seems pretty immature and incapable of fully taking a leadership role consistently. Perhaps it is impossible for a vampire to fully take on a parenting role for a group of humans. Being the leader/parent demands that one sometimes sets his or her own reactions and desires aside in order to function for the group. Can Angel really do this? Or will his destructive appetite/desire always come first?
I actually haven't seen more that five episodes of Angel, so it may be that he has demonstrated an ability to be consistant and capable of self-denial in the name of leadership. If so, I'd love to hear about it!
Zombie Movie Recommendations (sorta OT) -- neaux, 12:10:00 01/16/03 Thu
well since my Resident Evil thread was sucked into oblivion.. I figured I'd give a shout out to some fun lovin zombies..
What I recommend and What I hope to see soon:
Resident Evil(2001)- Although its a video game turned movie, it really is quite excellent. Zombies are slow and stupid but the overall death factor is amazing and this movie will really help you enjoy Last night's Angel much more.
The Night of the Comet (1984)- Funny how the Rain of fire was the night before the zombies came to LA. Well if you remember this cult classic.. maybe just maybe the Angel crew were paying homage to this movie too. Anyway the night after a comet hits town, Zombies emerge from an empty town to wreak havoc.
Versus (2000) Director: Ryuhei Kitamura Japanese-
I hope to see this badass movie next weekend. Durham, NC is hosting Nevermore Festival 2003 and this is one of the highlight movies. Its about kung fu and zombies in a forest. What else is there to know? I hope I can get tickets. They are only showing it twice next weekend!!
any other recommendations??
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Seconding The Night of the Comet -- Arethusa, 12:30:00 01/16/03 Thu
Don't know many zombie movies, but wanted to add NooC was great. It had Mary Woronov and Robert (ST: Voyager) Beltran from Eating Raul in it, a little sex, a little video games, dismemberment, teenage girls with Uzis, and a government conspiracy, as well as a shopping binge to the tune of "Girls Just Want To Have Fun."
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To paraphrase Giles (in Phases): 'Zombies. It's one of the classics...' -- cjl, 12:54:49 01/16/03 Thu
First of all, the zombie movie has a long and storied history in Hollywood, starting with "White Zombie" (1932?), starring the one-and-only Bela Lugosi, and extending all the way to "Resident Evil" in 2002. Most of the early zombie flicks were voodoo related, and they started the long-standing tradition of zoned-out, reanimated corpses advancing on the terror-stricken populace very, VERY slowly.
Landmarks of the genre:
George A. Romero's Night of the Living Dead (1968), and the sequels, Dawn of the Dead and Day of the Dead.
Return of the Living Dead, a spoof written by Alien scribe Dan O'Bannon (which had Fangoria fanatics all over the world shouting: braaaaaaaainnnnzzzzzzz!!!). Perhaps one of the main inspirations of Resident Evil...
Night of the Comet and Resident Evil, of course.
One of my favorite TV zombie stories was an old Outer Limits ep called "It Crawled out of the Woodwork," which featured a radioactive energy source that turned anyonr it touched into a mindless zombie. It was actually a thinly-veiled allegory about atomic energy disguised as a horror tale. Extraordinarily well-done.
There must be a million others, but they escape me right now....
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Re: How about? -- Sang, 13:48:23 01/16/03 Thu
How about Dead Alive (aka Braindead) by now popular Peter Jackson? Before he made LoTR series, he was famous of small, cheap horror/splatter/comedy movies like this. It contains stories like annoying mother turns into annoying Zombie. Kung-fu fighting preacher, and lots of body parts.
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Oooh yeah! And how about Sam Raimi's 'Evil Dead' series? -- cjl, 14:05:32 01/16/03 Thu
Or, for that matter, Weekend at Bernie's I & II...
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Re: Zombi-rific -- pr10n, 22:09:38 01/16/03 Thu
Don't forget "The Serpent and the Rainbow" unless you're an anthropologist or you can't bear to see science date-raped by Hollywood (again).
Voodoo fest and zombies too.
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One of the great film trilogies! 'We will suck your soul!!!' -- Rob, 22:27:24 01/16/03 Thu
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'swallow your soul' -- Clen, 07:53:20 01/17/03 Fri
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Oof! You're right! Darn! -- Rob, 08:43:52 01/17/03 Fri
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seconding and quoting and some slight AtS:HC spoilers -- fresne, 08:04:56 01/17/03 Fri
Seconding the Night, Dawn, Day, and Night (redux) of the Living Dead series. Night has one of my favorite zombie quotes, "They're dead; they're all messed up." And for that matter all the, they're dead, they're slow comments. Actually, the entire sequence of slow moving zombies in small spaces made me think very much of Dawn of the Dead, zombies take over the mall.
Although, the zombie quote that I use all the time is from the Simpson's Tree House of Horror, "Could this be the end of Zombie Shakespeare?" Okay actually I love the whole episode.
"Did you crash the car?
"No."
"Did you raise the dead?"
"Yes."
"But the cars okay?"
"Yes."
"Well, that's okay then."
"Flanders was a zombie?" or something like that.
And yes, Dead Alive great movie, with another great line, "I kick ass for the Lord." said in this wonderful plumy BBC English accent.
BTW, I googled "Lord of the Peeps" last night. Very disturbing. No zombies, but some very evil Peeps.
Sadly, I can't remember the names of most of the zombie movies that populated my college Friday nights. There was this one where slugs were eating people's brains and making them zombies. The high point of the movie was when they were distracted/attracted by this one kid's pickled brains collection. Ah, fond memories.
To briefly touch on the actual episode, the use of paper in Habeas Corpus was also very interesting. Both to show blood, damn dark floors, and as an almost literal manifestation of the lawyer's craft. Contracts literally signed/marked in blood.
Tangentially, and this may already have been mentioned, but I believe the point of the Habeas Corpus act/law/whatever is that without a body for the coroner to sit on/examine, there can be no trial. No murder. These bodies move. Do not remain where they are left.
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Re: I believe the movie is Night of the Creeps -- Brian, 09:24:50 01/17/03 Fri
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As an example of how attitudes have changed... -- CW, 12:10:29 01/17/03 Fri
There is always the 1932 Bela Lugosi classic White Zombie. True the title and its implications in the film sound misleadingly racist. But, the idea of zombies in the film is a simplistic metaphor for slavery and the 'white' zombie is specifically a metaphor for a victim of 'white' slavery or involuntary prostitution.
OT: TTT Condensed Parody -- SingedCat, 13:53:58 01/16/03 Thu
OK, I really don't do this, post OT stuff. But this made me fall off my chair.
http://www.livejournal.com/talkread.bml?journal=lemonlye&itemid=19097">http://www.livejournal.com/talkread.bml?journal=lemonlye&itemid=19097
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Re: OT: TTT Condensed Parody--real link -- SingedCat, 13:58:37 01/16/03 Thu
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Re: OT: TTT Condensed Parody--real link -- ARRRRRG! (sorry), 14:01:17 01/16/03 Thu
I can't seem to make an actual link. Just paste this, it's worth it. (sigh)
http://www.livejournal.com/talkread.bml?journal=lemonlye&itemid=19097
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Yes, it is... -- Wisewoman, 15:46:28 01/16/03 Thu
Well worth it! Bwa-ha-ha-ha-ha!!
;o)
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Especially the bits about facial expression -- Celebaelin, 16:31:57 01/16/03 Thu
Why not just out with it and write Legolas is a GIRL (or possibly woman), but in a kick ass, cloth yard shaft, 6'5", 220lb, death on legs kinda way. Waaay too pretty and sooo well groomed.
Cheeez
Angel & Conner (spoilers for HC) -- Tess, 19:00:09 01/16/03 Thu
I love a show that while loaded with action is all about relationships and Habeas Corpses was that. The relationship that touched me the most this episode was that of Angel and Conner.
Angel, he of questionable leadership skills in unsure times, really shines when those he loves are in immediate peril. The parent in me really related to that scene where Angel found Conner and immediately hugged him. When your kid's are in danger and you find out they are safe, no matter how mad you are at them, you can't help but forgive all and just hold them close for a moment. Plus, it seemed Conner was more than a little relieved to see dear old dad, and enjoyed giving Angel a hard time about him being just like a zombie.
After they returned to the hotel, and Conner said 'Dad' only Angel ignored him and walked away...I so wanted to know what Conner had wanted to say.
Can't wait till next week to see what happens next, and how cruel were the PTB in charge of scheduling my favorite shows to make me go two months without.
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Re: Angel & Conner (spoilers for HC) -- JM, 05:19:37 01/17/03 Fri
That planitive Dad was a sad moment. I think that Angel has shown that if he has to choose between Connor and Cordy, he chooses Connor. I wonder who Connor will choose if forced?
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Actually, I think Angel chose himself! ;) -- Flo, 06:10:42 01/17/03 Fri
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I agree with Flo (spoilers for HC) -- Scroll, 07:27:57 01/17/03 Fri
While I don't think Angel blames Connor so much as Cordelia (or is more hurt by Cordelia), that moment when Connor says "Dad", we see clearly Angel barely even hears him. He's too caught up in his own pain over Cordelia. Which is too bad because that was the perfect opportunity for Angel to really connect with his son. Perhaps this is what the Beast wants, for Angel to be alienated from both Cordy and Connor. Hopefully somebody will figure out if/how Connor and the Beast are connected, if only for Connor's sake.
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Question for Tess: Angel & Conner (spoilers for HC) -- Masq, 10:33:15 01/17/03 Fri
Tess,
I think you have great insights on Angel and Connor. I added a quote you made to my analysis of Spin the Bottle (here):
Angel and Conner need to do some serious relating. ...Conner has the teenager thing down pretty good--all angry and everything that's wrong with the world is your fault and I'm going to do whatever I want whenever I want and you can't do anything about it. Angel on the other hand has absolutely no idea how to be a parent. Which I can also understand seeing how his son went from 4 months old to a teenager in one week's time. The rest of us have 13 years to prepare for our babies to become angry teenagers and we still botch it up. I think Angel's so determined not to be the overbearing 'my way is the only way' parent that his father was that he's taking it to the other extreme. He's totally backing out of his son's life without trying to connect to him or guide him (Tess, 11/20/02 7:47).
Basically, you sum up Angel and Connor's relationship as it existed in Season 4 before Connor and Cordelia did the deed and Angel saw them.
Obviously, Angel is angry about what happened, angry in a deep way. But knowing all that, he still beat down the door of Wolfram and Hart to save his son and did hug him. I'm curious where you think their relationship is now, and where it might be going.
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Re: Question for Tess: Angel & Conner (spoilers for HC) -- Tess, 12:45:05 01/17/03 Fri
Thanks Masq,
I saw I was quoted a few weeks ago and nearly fainted. I am hestitant to speculate about where Conner and Angel's relationship is going since I am spoiled to the next few episodes. Wish I had the discipline to stay away from the spoiler boards. And the writers could prove anything I think about these two totally wrong in the next episode.
As for where they are now...let's start with Conner.
Teenagers are extremely self-conscious about who their parents are and what they do. Conner hasn't forgotten for a second that Angel is a vampire and that vampires are evil and should be killed; no exceptions. Except his father is an exception. He has a soul. But how would Conner who was raised in an unspeakable hell dimension be able to tell exactly what Angel possessing a soul means?
Conner has come to realize that Angel isn't the cold-blooded killing machine Holtz told him he was. He was even confused about why Angel supposedily attacked Cordy in STB. But he isn't ready to be okay with Angel as his father because that would mean he has to be okay with being the 'bastard son of two demons.'
Yet Conner wants to belong to a family. That's why he snuck back into the hotel the night Cordy returned, and I think a small part of why he stayed with Fred and Gunn over the Summer. Initially I think, the reason he helped Cordy leave the hotel was to get even with Angel for kicking him out, and for being his father in the first place. The reason Conner fell for Cordy is because she gave him the sense of belonging when everyone else turned their back on him.
Conner knows that Angel loves him and wants a relationship with him. He's used that fact to manipulate Angel, such as saying 'please dad' when Angel didn't want to speak with Cordy in AN. Conner senses he has the power in his relationship with his father. Or he has had it up until now. I think Conner is going to find that's all changed now.
One last thing on Conner. I think that Conner understands that Angel fought to keep him safe as a baby and did everything he could to find him when Holtz kidnapped him, but deep down he still blames Angel for allowing him to be stolen in the first place.
Now onto Angel...
I have to wonder if Wes had said Cordy was trapped in W&H what Angel's reaction would have been. I think he would have gathered the troops and saved her, but he would have done some foot dragging along the way.
Angel's problems with Conner started when he kicked Conner out of the hotel. I doubt Angel could have made Conner stay without tying him down, but in that scene in DD there was a look in Conner's eyes that seemed really hurt by what Angel had said.
Since then, Angel has not tried to reconcile with his son at all. He'll go out of his way to rescue him but he won't talk to him, and he's never invited him to move back into the hotel. Conner has reached out to Angel a couple of times. Conner does this by teasing. Like when he told Angel he so almost had him in STB and the zombie scene in HC. But Angel is too wrapped up in his own problems to notice what his son is doing.
Maybe part of the reason Angel has such a hard time opening up to Conner is that Conner's fears about being the son of two demons mirrors Angel's own fears. Not only about Conner but about being a demon himself.
The issue with Angel has always been family. As Angelus he destroyed every family he came in contact with, starting with his own. Angel has a love/hate relationship with family. And Conner is the only living member of his family. And he loves him and he hates him.
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Re: Question for Tess: Angel & Conner (spoilers for HC) -- Masq, 13:24:15 01/17/03 Fri
"Conner senses he has the power in his relationship with his father. Or he has had it up until now. I think Conner is going to find that's all changed now."
Wow! I think that is so true. Connor had his father's heart-strings, and still does, mostly, but Angel is angry now. He's mostly angry at Cordelia, I think, for "betraying" their love with Connor, and for being the more adult of the two and therefore "responsible" for what happened. That doesn't mean he can handle looking his son in the face, though. I think he will continue to keep Connor at a distance like he did before, right when it looked like they might be coming to a reconciliation.
"Maybe part of the reason Angel has such a hard time opening up to Conner is that Conner's fears about being the son of two demons mirrors Angel's own fears. Not only about Conner but about being a demon himself.
The issue with Angel has always been family. As Angelus he destroyed every family he came in contact with, starting with his own. Angel has a love/hate relationship with family. And Conner is the only living member of his family. And he loves him and he hates him."
Again, I think you have these two characters' relationship nailed. Which makes me wonder on the edge of my seat what will happen when the events fortold about Angel in certain spoilers (which alas, I couldn't seem to avoid!) come to pass.
How will Angel react to Connor then?
How will Connor react to Angel?
(Those were rhetorical questions, but if you have some spoilery spec, I'd love to hear it).
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Angel's treatment of Cordy and Conner (spoils) -- neaux, 13:51:09 01/17/03 Fri
I agree with you Masq. I think Angel is definately more angry at Cordy than Conner. The audience was well aware of his verbal jabs at Cordy and Cordy responded (in my opinion) with a sense of slight hurt but mostly confusion.
Of course It wasnt until the end of the episode that Cordy fully understood Angel's treatment of her.
As for Angel's view of Connor, I see Angel as more understanding of Connor's situation. Responsibility plays a part of this, but I think adolesence/puberty plays a greater role.. and I think Angel might view it that way too. While Angel should be disgusted, he might also understand this juvenile "boys will be boys" mentality. Whether Angel accepts this explanation/attitude or not has yet to be seen.
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Agree, just didn't mention it -- Masq, 14:34:53 01/17/03 Fri
And in this Angel reveals his old-fashioned roots. Not only is Cordelia more responsible for what happened because she is older and supposed loves Angel, but because she is the woman, who should be able to control her lusts.
Connor, on the other hand is that hormonal teen-aged boy who "just can't help himself".
I thought I'd just skip over this point because this sort of attitutude towards sexual responsibility annoys me so much. But yeah, I could see Angel seeing it this way.
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Re: Angel's treatment of Cordy and Conner (spoils) -- Tess, 15:28:07 01/17/03 Fri
""The audience was well aware of his verbal jabs at Cordy and Cordy responded (in my opinion) with a sense of slight hurt but mostly confusion.""
All through the buffyverse we've been shown the effect betrayal has on the people responsible for it. Examples Xander and Willow's kissage while dating Cordy and Oz. Yet Cordy showed absolutely no guilt, even when standing right in front of Angel.
She slept with Conner, dumped him, and showed up at work the next day like the night before didn't happen. Heck, even if she and Angel weren't supposed to be in love, it would be kinda hard to stand in front of the father of a guy you'd just done that too without revealing a little guilt or awkwardness.
And Cordy's spent enough time with Angel to know just how good his super vamp senses are and that he can tell when people have had sex. It's almost like she wanted Angel to know.
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Re: Angel's treatment of Cordy and Conner (spoils) -- Rufus, 21:19:01 01/18/03 Sat
She slept with Conner, dumped him, and showed up at work the next day like the night before didn't happen. Heck, even if she and Angel weren't supposed to be in love, it would be kinda hard to stand in front of the father of a guy you'd just done that too without revealing a little guilt or awkwardness.
Yes, isn't that odd....that Cordy would act in such a thoughtless way? Pay attention to her behavior cause it ain't making sense.
Connor and Angel....I've said it before...Connor is the push and shove that is forcing Angel to finally grow up and get past his self-involvement....I know people will argue that point..but what else is happening when someone broods...they are usually thinking about themselves. Connor is the one person who is forcing Angel to look less at himself and more at the world around him. The problem Angel has right now centers around his love for Cordy and her actions that aren't making sense. Angel's problem is "family" I've talked about it enough. He fears acting the way his father did, he fears turning Connor into a monster, this causes him to keep a distance that has only grown because of the actions of Cordy. In many ways it's just as well that Angel blame Cordy for the current mess and start to deal with Connor....because that boy is at a point where he will pick a side, and the latest happenings with Cordy could push him to the wrong side, mirroring what happened to Angel so long ago. Angel has to get out of his mind (brooding) and start doing something posative for Connor, even if he is initially rejected.
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Re: Question for Tess: Angel & Conner (spoilers for HC) -- Tess (Speculation to future episodes), 15:03:44 01/17/03 Fri
""How will Angel react to Connor then?
How will Connor react to Angel?
(Those were rhetorical questions, but if you have some spoilery spec, I'd love to hear it).""
Ok Masq, since you asked, I'll speculate...don't read further if you aren't spoiled to upcoming episodes!
Angel suspects that the fang gang will hestitate to kill Angelus if he escapes, and that innocent people will die because of it. He'll hope that Conner will kill him, not try to save him. I think Conner believes he'll be able to kill Angelus, even eager to do so, but he'll hestitate when he has the chance, and he'll blame himself for every person Angelus kills.
Villians are known for being the speaker of the truth in the Buffyverse. Where Angel is afraid to talk to Conner about their relationship, Angelus will be impossible to shut up. And everything he'll say though true will be worded to inflict the maximum amount of damage on his son. I think Conner will come away from this entire event truly afraid of his father's demon, and truly fond of his father's soul.
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Yes... (future ep spoilers and speculation for AtS) -- Masq, 15:20:16 01/17/03 Fri
Angel suspects that the fang gang will hestitate to kill Angelus if he escapes, and that innocent people will die because of it. He'll hope that Conner will kill him, not try to save him. I think Conner believes he'll be able to kill Angelus, even eager to do so, but he'll hestitate when he has the chance, and he'll blame himself for every person Angelus kills.
My suspicion is this: Connor is so busily looking for his identity, his destiny. He was a miracle child, shouldn't have been born, someone made him for a purpose. When he came to Earth as a teen, he wanted to kill his "evil" father. When Angelus returns, Connor may very well see it as his "destiny" to kill his father. But he won't succeed (unless DB's contract really IS over), and I think Connor will fail because of Angelus' psychological manipulations.
Villians are known for being the speaker of the truth in the Buffyverse. Where Angel is afraid to talk to Conner about their relationship, Angelus will be impossible to shut up. And everything he'll say though true will be worded to inflict the maximum amount of damage on his son. I think Conner will come away from this entire event truly afraid of his father's demon, and truly fond of his father's soul.
Also agree. This is what Angelus is known for. He takes his inside, intimate knowledge of Angel's loved ones and turns it against them. He about destroyed Buffy's heart. In "Eternity", he told Wesley and Cordelia exactly what he thought of them in ways that went right to the source of their insecurities. He knew exactly how to drive the pious Drusilla insane.
Oh, I dread him being unleashed on Connor, who is already iffy about his father. But you're right, it might make Connor appreciate Angel with a soul all the more. I hope.
But I'm looking forward to seeing Angelus again!
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Preserving this thread -- Masq, 15:21:03 01/18/03 Sat
Showtime Question---so, spoilers of course -- Purple Tulip, 21:06:19 01/16/03 Thu
I just watched Showtime for the first time tonight and I wasn't able to see Bring On the Night so this was the first episode that I saw with the slayers-in-training and the UberVamp. I was just wondering what exactly the UberVamp decended from and how did the more common every-day vamp come from these beasts. And how is it that no one has ever heard of these vampires or how awful they are? Anyone got any insight for me here?
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Re: Showtime Question---so, spoilers of course -- masio, 21:18:47 01/16/03 Thu
Giles just said that the Turok-han as its called is like the neanderthal of vamps. there wasn't much more info from The G man. Just that they were extinct and that there isn't much or any info on them.
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Re: Showtime Question---so, spoilers of course -- CW, 21:26:25 01/16/03 Thu
I think it was suggested that the UberVamp was a Neandrathal in life (or at least that it corresponded to other vampires like Neandrathals correspond to humans). There was no real explanation of how human vampires came to be different other than the usual 'vamps get tougher as they get older.' This one was either in hell or just buried under that seal. Chances are there aren't anymore left, and haven't been any for thousands of years.
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Re: Showtime Question---so, spoilers of course -- masio, 21:34:27 01/16/03 Thu
Giles just said that the Turok-han as its called is like the neanderthal of vamps. there wasn't much more info from The G man. Just that they were extinct and that there isn't much or any info on them.
CBC Interview with Marti Noxon (Meaning and BTVS) -- Rufus, 21:28:02 01/16/03 Thu
CBC Radio
She slays vampires. She tosses demons into kingdom come. California valley girl or feminist icon? IDEAS producer Mary O'Connell explores why Buffy the Vampire Slayer is a pop culture phenomenon.
With little fan-fare,Buffy the Vampire Slayer was quietly dropped into the 1997 television schedule, in mid-season. According to Joss Whedon, the thirty-something creator of the show, it's premise was this: pluck that weary plot-line from the horror genre... you know the one... where the young beautiful blonde is being chased, stumbles, and eventually ends up in a dark alley where she's of course butchered. Well, Joss Whedon wanted to give it a twist. The young beautiful blonde is being chased, stumbles and eventually ends up in a dark alley... where she turns around and kicks the monster's ass. The show's premise is given depth with it's mix of genres: gothic soap opera, super-hero cartoon, comedy and melodrama. Originally Buffy the Vampire Slayer was viewed as a show about teenagers for teenagers. But, now in it's 7th season, it explores, some of the big questions: what does it mean to be violent? Weak? Evil? Questions that have drawn adult viewers and academics as well. The show has generated thousands of web sites, hundreds of chat rooms, and at least four anthologies, with essay titles like: "Buffy as Gidget for the fin de siecle," or "I'm Buffy... and You're History: A Post-Modern Politics of Buffy."
We are being taken on a complicated journey with this super-hero. Buffy doesn't always save the day. She can't even save her mother. She's not an untouchable sex object like Wonder Woman. She has sex and gets her heart crushed by her first love. She's not a one-dimensional hero like Superman. Buffy gets depressed following her mother's death. Depressed for a long time. She withdaws from her friends. In a key episode, she is forced to sacrifice herself to save her sister. But the program is clever, in that it allows us to think, that although the sacrifice may look like an act of heroism, it could've been a suicide attempt. We are presented with the portrait of a super-hero who is damaged, flawed. A super-hero who is weak just like us. Perhaps that's why the program strikes such a chord. The internet abounds with thousands of web sites. Hundreds of them discuss the many moral debates the program raises: debates about contradiction. Can a powerful person be emotionally vulnerable? Does badness come from the heart, or from deep in the soul?
Marti Noxon is the executive producer of Buffy the Vampire Slayer.Joss Whedon is the creator of the program.
MOC: So, Marty, looking at the psychological wiring under the boards, is Buffy really about, that, in life, there are more questions than answers. That super-heroes are human, and that humans, of course can be super-heroes too? Or, do you have your own theory?
MN: Well, I have a theory, and it's something I've been working on all these years, and Joss may hate me for saying this, but I think it's an exploration of being exceptional. I mean the whole idea of being a super-hero is the idea that you are unlike other people, and people are drawn to that, but at the same time, it makes you the other...someone that may have trouble relating. It's inherantly a lonely thing, and I haven't said this to Joss, but I kind of think it's his life story. Because he's exceptionally brilliant, and he has abilities other people don't have. He can take the summer off and write a musical that's every bit as good as what major composers, who've dedicated their life, can come up with. He's just an amazingly smart, over-capable person. And he lives in a world where his brain functions faster than most people's. And not that he can leap tall buildings, but the more I look at Buffy's struggle, I see it's a study of being exceptional.
MOC: Let's talk about Spike as a character, and why he's generated this moral debate about being redeemed.
MN: Well, the whole genesis of Spike, is that we just wanted a cool villain. He was introduced as part of a Sid and Nancy set, and then he just popped up as a character, and we wanted to bring him back. We weren't sure how he would function in the group because he was evil, and more or less as a functon of story-telling we wanted to make him less so, so he could be around the gang more. So, we had him tracked by the government, and a chip is put in his head, so he is unable to attack people. So for a long time he was good by default. He was still able to hurt demons, his chip didn't stop that, but he was fighting on the side of right because he still liked to kill things. But slowly you start to have moral questions. Is this a change in conditioning? Was the active fight for good, did that start to make him seek out good? And then he becomes attracted to Buffy. I've always joked around that he became attracted to Buffy because she could hit him the hardest, that he liked to be abused. Then we discovered that there was a real heart to that story-line, and they had a real chemistry together. So a lot of times people who see this as a grand design, an opera about good and evil. It's just really a slowly evolving thing, and sometimes form follows function. And as we watched, eventually we found that Spike was a real romantic foil for Buffy. And also what we've seen is Buffy attracted to her own darkness. To her own aggression, to sex without love, to sex where love is really subdued, all of the things that she can't permit, because she is a hero.
MOC: One thing that struck me watching the show was whether it was teenagers or feminist historians, they were attracted to the idea of a calling, a higher purpose to Buffy's sense of mission. Does that surprise you?
MN: Oh gosh, no...there's two things. I somehow believe that's something everybody wishes they had. That everybody wishes they had such a strong sense of their destiny. Buffy, for all of her doubt, confusion, and masochistic impulses, for all of that, she knows what her job is. She knows what her purpose is, above all other. It's really interesting, but becoming a mom, I feel a kind of clarity in my life, more than anything else, I know what I have to do. I feel more settled. I have something precious to protect. I know what my first job is and also, there's a spiritual yearning in it.
MOC: I think you're right about that, tell me about that.
MN: Well, to me, Buffy just doesn't serve herself. I have a calling which is to be a writer, but that's pretty selfish. I mean, it brings me great joy, who knows if it brings better things into the world, but ultimately, it serves me. Buffy's calling is to serve mankind, and it connects her to a greater good, and I know I struggle to feel connected to something, and connected to something larger than our daily existence, and Buffy's plugged into it. And I think the idea of destiny and serving God in a way, and Joss, by the way, is a rabid atheist, but his work is full of yearning for belief. And I think the show speaks to people who also have that yearning. I mean, the whole show in a way, the whole show ping pongs between the darkest night of the soul and this whole yearning for belief.
MOC: Do you think this is Joss Whedon's personal belief? That saving the world is an endless struggle, to do good?
MN: I think that he does feel like it's sort of a meaningless void, and what matters is the struggle to find the good. And the relationships you build with people while you struggle. And in some ways you'll never find it, but the quest and the questors, and the people that you find, who are not necessarily your family, are the only thing that lends the journey meaning. I think that is his major theme.
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No spoilers in above post, maybe some existential thoughts. -- Rufus, 21:29:30 01/16/03 Thu
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Very cool interview. -- HonorH, 22:57:12 01/16/03 Thu
I like that the interviewer and Marti are unafraid to tackle the tough issues of the show and look beyond the surface. So many of these interviews are just, "What's ahead for your actors?" "What is person X like?" "Where's the story headed?" and so forth. I like something a little deeper. Hence me being here, of course.
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Thanks! -- aliera, 04:51:09 01/17/03 Fri
(The internet abounds with thousands of web sites. Hundreds of them discuss the many moral debates the program raises: debates about contradiction. Can a powerful person be emotionally vulnerable? Does badness come from the heart, or from deep in the soul?)
What is the soul? What is Evil? What is Power? Why are here? Very good stuff. Thanks, Rufus.
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Quote from Joss -- Darby, 05:09:32 01/17/03 Fri
Hope you don't mind me putting this here...
From one of the 1163 articles on whether BtVS is ending:
"I would rather have 100 people who need to see this show than 1,000 people who like to see this show," Whedon says. "I don't want to make a show that people watch and then just say, 'That was fun.' I want a show that people watch and say, 'I can't believe that character is dead' or 'I have to get on the Internet.'
"If fans react that way to the show, then I am doing my job right. If they do not react that way, then what I make does not matter."
It just seemed appropriate for this forum.
From http://www.fresnobee.com/lifestyle/story/5877273p-6841340c.html
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Re: Quote from Joss -- MaeveRigan, 12:12:15 01/17/03 Fri
Count me in as one of the 100.
Too bad Nielsens don't work this way--Firefly would still be flying!
All the same, if Buffy season 7 ends satisfactorily, I'm willing to let it go.
What do I mean by "satisfactorily"? I don't know yet, but I'll know it when (if) I see it.
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Wonderful, thanks. -- yez, 09:58:57 01/17/03 Fri
Angel & Film Noir (spoilers up 4.08 Habeas Corpses) -- slain, 01:33:24 01/17/03 Fri
I've had this one on the books for a little while now, making of the notes and also with the research... but the ongoing Wesley and Lilah plot sparked off the actual writing last night; I've not yet checked through so my argument's probably full of holes and the grammar's incomprehensible, incidentally. If I get no replies them I'm prepared to make the final title "Are You Noir or Have You Ever Been?" - this is not a threat, although actually I can't think of anything better.
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It's not quite the case that Film Noir is to Angel what Horror is to Buffy, but, monsters and the whole vampirism issue aside, Angel is in many ways based on a gothic Film Noir, and its style, characters and even ideology stems from the style. Film Noir isn't a genre, like Horror, but it is distinct enough from any old detective or crime film (or TV series) for it to be given is own name.
Film Noir was about many of the things I've discussed in other articles, writing about Buffy; Film Noir is influenced by existentialism, and it shares many features with the gothic. Noir is about alienation from society as a whole, about a world of corruption and indistinct morality which exists parallel to the safe, ordinary world; like existential characters, Noir heroes (or more often anti-heroes) rarely fit in with marriage, conventional jobs, family or other things considered normal in society. Like gothic heroes, Noir characters are often threatened by a murky past or embroiled in doomed sexual relationships.
THE ANTI-HERO
In Horror, there's almost always a monster to fight, and in fact there has to be a monster to fight; but Angel is Noir where there are no monsters and therefore, unlike Buffy, the show's morality is even greyer than the morality on Buffy has gradually become. In Film Noir, we have the Anti-hero: a character who, while we're always put in their perspective and often sympathise with, we're not necessarily obliged to admire to consider in the same way that we consider an archetypal true Hero. Because Angel is a gothic Noir, which means it makes metaphorical or psychological elements real, Angel himself is not just figuratively an anti-hero, a character whose morality isn't assured and whose actions are not always motivated by good; he also literally has a demon inside of him, a dark side which is 'real'.
When the show was at its most Noir, in Season 1, Angel was a solitary figure, but like any Noir hero (you can add the 'anti-' yourself) he was also motivated to exist in society. While Angel doesn't feel involved with the city around him, he's compelled to be; for many Noir detectives, the motive was money or escape from themselves and the memories of their past. Angel doesn't want to escape from his past, rather he wants to be redeemed for it; good deeds, rather than dollars, are Angel's currency and his motivation. But while Angel is compelled be involved with people, he doesn't want to connect with Cordelia, Doyle or later Wesley; he's cynical about humanity, and indeed cynical about the prospect of his own redemption. Like many Noir heroes, he's disillusioned with his purpose, a knight errant on a probably unattainable quest.
The idea of the Higher Powers isn't something Angel has respect for, but rather something which he fights against; he's even alienated from this metaphysical society. In 'The Trial', Angel succeeds in beating the system, but he exists outside of it; Noir heroes aren't part of society, they exist on its edges, dealing with whatever it tries to sweep to one side. Angel takes for granted his role on the outer perimeters of the human world, and the demon underworld that he deals with is an allegory for the underbelly where Noir detectives operate.
Wesley is the second significant Noir hero in the series; in Season 3 through 4, Wesley is driven to reprise Angel's role, and in some ways he becomes more typical of the style. While Angel's morality always had an ultimate purpose towards 'good', Wesley's motivation is less clear; he continues the work of Angel Investigations, but it isn't clear whether money, prestige, redemption or simply passing the time is his reason. Wesley loses his sense that he can work for the side of Good against Evil. Conventional Noirs have their hero alienated from the morality and sensibilities of society; in this gothic Noir, Wesley feels alienated from human society and its protection. We know he feels that he's acted rightly; we don't know whether he feels he can do so again.
While the Noir sometimes featured female leads, Angel the series does break with the original mould through the character of Kate, a female character who is also a conventional detective. While part of society, being with the LAPD rather than a lone private eye, Kate is equally outside of it and marginalizes through her interests in the supernatural and the city's demonic underside. The confusion which she feels when faced with 'the truth about monsters' metaphorically parallels the Noir hero's inability to conform to the accepted black and white cops and robbers view.
FEMME FATALE VS. FEMME GENTIL
Gender roles in the show are often based upon Noir archetypes; Angel and Wesley are the alienated anti-heros, and similarly female characters often fit with the two main female roles in the style. The first is the femme fatale; like the male hero, the femme fatale character feels alienated by society, and by institutions such as marriage or the family, and often is trapped in a marriage or other contract which she entices the hero to help free her from: often through crime. The femme fatale is a dangerous, seductive figure who possess sexual and very often intellectual power, capable of deluding the hero and using him for her own purposes.
In the episode 'Eternity', Angel meets a modern femme fatale; a TV actress who wants to live forever as a vampire. She attempts to seduce Angel into giving her eternal life; she uses drugs with the hope of making Angel more relaxed, but her plan backfires. But while a femme fatale is in control of the situation and in control of the hero, she isn't. The episode is an instance of the show demonstrating its difference from the conventional Noir; the classic means of persuasion of sex and alcohol backfire in Angel's gothic world.
Lilah Morgan represents much of what constitutes the femme fatale; manipulative, sexual, in control of her emotions, able to control men. While many female characters in the show or in Buffy have used physical force, Lilah's adherence to never using violence herself links her with Noir; she is able to exercise control over others to achieve her aims. She uses her seduction of Wesley to gain information, and to edge him towards her way of thinking. Lilah doesn't believe in the moral absolutes that are alien to the Noir:
Wesley: There is a line, Lilah. Black and white. Good and evil.
Lilah: Funny thing about black and white. You mix it together and two get gray. I doesn't matter how much white you try and put back in, you're never gonna get anything but gray.
Darla is, for much of the series, a typical femme fatale. She is able to manipulate Lindsey, a member of Wolfram & Hart but also an ambiguous Noir anti-hero, and she is able to exercise sexual power of Angel. But while Darla begins as the femme fatale, the deadly seductress, her role changes through Season 2 and she becomes the second main Noir archetype, the nurturing woman or rejuvenating redeemer. In Noir, this woman is in many ways the opposite of the femme fatale. Instead of being trapped by society or family, the woman represents the favourable aspects it. But significantly, she is unattainable to the hero, who is unable to fit in with marriage or family, and is brought to ruin by (or more accurately with) the femme fatale. In Angel, society is often symbolised by morality and the fight of good an evil; being able to embrace good, as opposed to grey, is the goal of many characters, just as many traditional Noir heroes tried to embrace marriage or family: this proving unattainable. Darla does achieve redemption herself, and Angel can be seen as a male version of the nurturing archetype, enabling Darla to symbolically embrace good, and also more conventionally to embrace family. Darla's death, however, puts a Noirish seal on events, there being no happy endings.
In Season 1, Buffy representations the nurturing woman for Angel; she allows him the possibility finding the things he had been denied, things most Noir heroes are denied: love, family, moral safety. For Angel this also includes redemption, and humanity. But these prove unattainable; Noir heroes are often seduced by another woman or tempted by money, but Angel can't find his solace because of his own sense of duty. Angel suffers from a Catch 22 as reminiscent of existentialism as Noir; he feels obligated to society and spends his life trying to improve it, but he is unable to join society because he has to protect it.
From Wesley, Fred is the nurturing redeemer to Lilah's femme fatale. She represents the side of Good, and metaphorically and literally the ideals of romance, relationships, family. For Wesley, his actions are what he feels has separated him from her; in acting alone, and in apparently straying from his 'Good' morality, Wesley finds Fred to be unattainable. Gunn is not a Noir hero; he has moral certainties, and Wesley feels that Fred has chosen Gunn because of this; Gunn and Fred are both symbols of a potentially rejuvenating or redeeming figure, but either through love or friendship Wesley find them unreachable. For Angel's Noir heroes, to be morally black and white is both impossible and desirable; while in Buffy moral certainties are apparently easy to find but a grey moral outlook is harder, in the City moral ambiguity is everywhere, and Wesley find it difficult to fight only for 'Good' and to avoid aiding Evil. The unattainability of a Good/Evil morality is a metaphor for the unattainability of a place in society, in this sense.
Cordelia is a hero of the story as much as Angel or Wesley, but she also represents the unattainable nurturing redeemer for Angel. Angel's curse is a block of society, something external to himself, and in this way it works as a metaphor for the Noir hero's sense of their being a wall between himself and the conventional life and family. Cordy is unreachable for Angel because of this, but also because her her apparent inability to reconcile herself with his past deeds; as with Wesley and Fred, it seems that morality is a barrier.
A TOUCH OF EVIL
While Noir heroes often wanted, however distantly, to be part of family and society, by far more central was their dislike and cynicism of humanity. In Angel, most institutions, whether financial, legal or social are shown as corrupt by their association with the occult and dark powers generally. Moral ambiguity, however, isn't a trait which marks them out as corrupt; where heroes in the series aspire to fight for Good, the City thrives on the grey areas. Caritas and other demon haunts, such as the brothel shown in Season 3, are morally ambiguous: or rather they exist outside human moralities, but they certainly aren't shown as evil. In Angel, humanity, with a dark supernatural hidden beneath, symbolises corruption.
In a similar way to Buffy's 'Reptile Boy', 'Guise Will be Guise' portrayed corruption at the heart of the financial sector, with a wealthy man's fortune based on human sacrifice and evil rituals. This hidden dark occult is used as a metaphor for literal crookedness and cannibalistic ruthlessness in the business sector.
The episode 'The Thin Dead Line' was about corruption and brutality in the police force, with the actions of the Chief of Police in command (sitting back at a safe distance to direct 'zero tolerance' methods) represented by dabbling with the occult, using dead police officers to work the beat. Institutions of law are shown as unreliable, being either blind to the truth or capitalising on the possibilities of dark powers.
Wolfram & Hart is the ultimate example of an institution which is outwardly benign or at least legal, but inwardly malevolent and dishonest. However in the morally grey world of the city, Angel is unable to simply fight the firm to the death, and similarly they can't get rid of him; instead, the relationship is ambiguous, with Angel working both with and against Lilah and Lindsey, but with the emphasis on their coexistence. While Angel might want to destroy Wolfram & Hart, and he tries, he can't.
Moral ambiguity, while something the heroes struggle with, isn't part of the corruption; the evil side of grey, however, is. But 'That Old Gang of Mine' points to the equal corruption of a supposedly 'good' morality, a morality which isn't ambiguous. Gunn's old gang have a new leader who doesn't make the distinctions that he's learnt to make between good and evil and the many degrees in between, and kills demons regardless of their own morality and regardless of established institution and rules such as those in Caritas. By not making any distinctions and by sticking to one ideology, Gunn's old gang have tipped towards evil.
NO NOIR NO FUN
The series exists within the Noir style but, like Buffy, it isn't wholly Noir: much as Buffy isn't wholly Horror. Angel the series is aware of the conventions of the genre, and to an extent the characters are also; just as the Scooby Gang often show that they're savvy to the supernatural, Angel Investigations also understand the Noir. While the heroes are vulnerable to the femme or homme fatale, they show more intelligence than some Film Noir heroes; Wesley knows that Lilah will try to manipulate him and to use their relationship to her advantage, for example. Despite his nurturing woman being unattainable, Wesley doesn't fall for the femme fatale exactly; rather he has something which isn't often present in Film Noir: moral certainties.
Angel, Cordy and Wesley all have a reason for fighting which separates them from many conventional heroes. While it's common for a Film Noir hero to begin with moral certainties but have them stripped away, the idea of the 'good fight' is central to Angel Investigations, whereas usually money or sex were the only motivations for a Noir detective. Similarly the concept of family is not entirely something unattainable at all; Angel Investigations is a family. When it does break up, as when Angel fires the staff in Season 2, the show becomes more Noirish; yet the prevalent feeling is more positive.
Like Buffy, Angel exists within a certain framework; here, the morally ambiguous and dangerous world of the Noir. But, again like Buffy, Angel frequently steps outside this framework, and frequently stretches and challenges its conventions. Much of the drama, in fact, comes from the conflict between the Noirish city and a small group of idealists who themselves can exist both inside and outside of the conventions, with Angel being the chief example of this; a character who, in his darkest and most uncertain moments, is pure Noir.
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This is great, slain! Hope to post more on it later -- ponygirl, 07:28:15 01/17/03 Fri
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Re: Angel & Film Noir (spoilers up 4.08 Habeas Corpses) -- Arethusa, 07:33:55 01/17/03 Fri
Really, really good, slain.
I had a very long answer for you, and accidently erased it. Depressed sigh. So I'll just make a few points. It's very cool how perfectly vampirism fits the model of the alienated noir hero-must stay in the night, craves blood (alcohol), inherently violent. Since Angel has a soul, he fits the model better than a regular vampire could. He longs to be part of society, but is too dangerous to do so, like the returning vets who became noir heroes. Wesley's motivation for his slide into noir is very different, but just as interesting. His alienation and ambiguity are from internal, not external, sources-inbred by his father, instead of imposed upon him like Angel's vampirism. Feelings of inadequacy and alienation, fueled by insecurity his oppressive father installed in him, separate him from society and his new family. His fears drive him to make the wrong decisions, and he begins his downward slide into gray morality. Gunn's the traditional noir Best Friend, who still has hope of a connection to society (life with Fred). In Apocalypse, Nowish, Gunn talks about buying a home with Fred, which implies a type of connection to society and family that Fred is beginning to see as unattainable. In fact, Fred is going from the Madonna noir figure to a downward slide of her own. Her character is being grayed also, very slowly, with of course her turnig point being Seidel's murder. Will she continue her path, going from someone with ties to society (Gunn), or be dragged down by a male fatale (Wesley)? Of course, Cordy is making her own little side-trip into alienation and moral ambiguity.
The unattainability of a Good/Evil morality is a metaphor for the unattainability of a place in society, in this sense. Great point. Terrific essay.
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Re: Angel & Film Noir (spoilers up 4.08 Habeas Corpses) -- JM, 07:53:38 01/17/03 Fri
Do we have gremlins? Several people have said that about their perspective posts recently. Condolensces.
Really cool stuff. To me, Angel always seemed to be primarily a mix of noir detective and comic book superhero, while Buffy was horror and teen dramady mixed. Course they both pull in lots of other influences, but the fusion of those two primaries seemed to be their most interesting source of energy.
I only know a couple of noir movies (though "The Big Goodbye" was my favorite ever ep of ST:TNG). Just wondering if there are any stories where the femme fatale gets her man? "The Big Sleep" kinda comes to mind, but I've only seen it thru once and was a little confused at who has what roles.
Also essay was amazing. Gonna save and read again, to see if I can come up with anything deeper as a response. God it's good to have Angel back.
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Re: Angel & Film Noir (spoilers up 4.08 Habeas Corpses) -- Arethusa, 08:09:35 01/17/03 Fri
LOL. The Big Sleep is notorious for being incomprehensible. Even the authors couldn't figure out what was going on. The comic book influence is getting stronger, isn't it, which is natural since Batman's famous Dark Knight series gave comics a huge infusion of noir. Femme Fatales don't get their man, except in very late semi-noir. They just drag him down into depravity and death, hehe. Thank goodness ME just takes what it wants from the formula.
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Re: Angel & Film Noir (spoilers up 4.08 Habeas Corpses) -- JM, 11:59:38 01/17/03 Fri
Curious. I wonder if this "rule" of the genre is what's happening to our gang's gal's this season. In the beginning it there was the anti-hero, Angel the vampire with a soul. And he had a Girl Friday, and a less-serious anti-hero side kick. And the occasional guest femme-fatale, (Rebecca, Jheira, Lilah) try unsuccessfully to get into his pants. At this point Kate isn't so much another anti-hero as the cop buddy. No femme-gentil though, mostly cause she still lives in Sunnydale.
Then in season two Angel gets his very own full-time femme-fatale, Darla. Still no femme-gentil, till perhaps Disharmony, where Cordy is starting to become more of a partner.
In season three, we finally get both femme gentils as well as femme fatales. Darla returns, and provides a contrast to both Cordy as nurturer and Fred as innocent. Later Justine and Lilah fill the femme fatale roll. Plus we get an additional anti-hero with Wesley. But as of yet I don't think we've had leading anti-heroines. Maybe that is what season four is about.
Because there is something a little sexist about noir conventions. The anti-hero stands on the divide between light and dark, complex and an independent agent enough that he can go either way. The femme-gentils and femme-fatales may be multi-layered, but they are relegated to one side or the other (not even clear that they can change side). They are not allowed to be as ambiguous or mobile as the anti-hero. Maybe this year our girls, all of them are becoming anti-heroines. Our femme-gentils are getting a lot grey. Cordy appears to have made a very unwise, devisive, and perhaps even selfish decision. Her earlier role as nurturer is becoming toxic, her influence over Connor sliding into taking advantage of him. Fred the innocent is the angry victim. She fury is so deep because her trust became her biggest weakness. Lilah may be the femme-fatale, but she's not in it for the money. She not sleeping with him for the information, she's entirely given up trying to seduce him to the dark side, and she's not getting any benefit out of telling Wes about Connor. (Do sex, vengence, and love have any special noire significance?)
Maybe no one's getting redeemed or corrupted, just tinted.
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Re: Angel & Film Noir (spoilers up 4.08 Habeas Corpses) -- slain, 13:19:45 01/17/03 Fri
Maybe no one's getting redeemed or corrupted, just tinted.
I think with 'Habeas Corpus' we're defintely seeing this - it's already been established that 'Good' isn't really a tangible force in AtS (the PtB are many things, but they clearly aren't solely a force for good), in we're now seeing the destruction of one of the most basic ideas in AtS: that Wolfram & Hart are evil. No only do we have a certain amount of sympathy for the lawyers, we're also seeing the only living representative of the firm, Lilah, becoming less 'evil'.
There are definitely echos of the pre-60s gender roles in AtS; Lilah and Fred have clearly represented two ends of a spectrum, as far as Wesley was concerned. But neither of them are quite so black and white any longer - Lilah talks about grey, but I'd argue she's always recognised that, as far as Wesley or Angel are concerned, she's 'evil'. The difference is that now she no longer is, even in their eyes; Fred having tried to take a life and Lilah having saved one, they've both become greyer characters and therefore they don't symbolise the Noir archetypes they once did. Rather the essential moral ambiguity at the heart of Noir is breaking down its own archetypes; Lilah can't be bad to Fred's good, because in the grey world that Lilah talks about it's hard to tell which side is which.
For Wesley and Angel, fighting for Good is the struggle - but for characters like Holtz and Justine, personal revenge takes precedence. Neither of them, in Season 3, were Noir heroes (or arguably Noir characters at all), because they didn't strive to understand any of the moral ambiguities in the world; both Wesley and Angel do, even though their ultimate goal still seems to be to distinguish good from evil - which is proving to be an impossible quest. I think we've had hints that Justine, if she returns, is going to become more recognisably a Noir hero; in AtS, a Noir hero is someone who understands that they live in a morally grey world, but who still strives to find some kind of meaning, however unattainable.
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Noir films -- slain, 10:29:30 01/17/03 Fri
The classic Film Noir period is generally thought to start with the 'Maltese Falcon' (1941, starring Humphrey Bogart) and end with Orson Welles' 'A Touch of Evil' in 1954, I think.
I think the thing with the femme fatale is that she doesn't want to get the man - her aim is usually to use him for her own purposes (to help bump off a husband, for example) and then leave him. The Noir hero often doesn't realise she's playing him, or if he does then he still feels powerless against her. Depending on the film, the femme fatale can come across as either a representation of 'evil women' or a woman simply trying to succeed for herself - Lilah is somewhere in the middle, I think.
I'm really bad at remembering episodes of Angel (apart from Season 2, which I used to have on video), but if anyone can think of more example of Noir features in one-off episodes I'd be grateful. The episode where Cordy gets pregnant ('Expecting' Season 1, thanks Buffyworld.com) strikes me as an example of two Noir features; first there's the fatale, in this case homme rather than femme, and second there's the idea (which I haven't talked about in the essay, as it's more of a late feature in Noir) of the hero being entrapped in society; in this case Cordy is entrapped into a 'family' she doesn't want.
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Re: Noir films -- Arethusa, 10:54:58 01/17/03 Fri
Getting out my Noir Angel notes.....
Characteristics of Noir in AtS:
Deviant Sexuality-
City of... and Corrupt-pimps and prostitutes
She-female castration
I Fall To Pieces-stalker
(Expecting)
Alienation and Hopelessness-
City of...-emphesizes Angel's isolation from society due to vampire nature
Epiphany and Reprise-Hopelessness, no clear morality (blurring of black and white)
Crime and Corruption-
Sense and Sensitivity-Little Tony bribes and hobbles police, cop Trevor Lockley runs "drugs"
The Thin Dead Line-corrupt, murderous cops
Techniques Used in Noir-flashbacks, plot twists, reversals-
Almost too many to name. See crossovers.
Femme Fatales-
Lilah and Darla
She-Jhiera
Driven By Past (to repeat former mistakes)-
The show in general, emphesized by Tish Magreb in Guise Will Be Guise
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Great post. Hopefully can respond later. -- shadowkat, 09:03:00 01/17/03 Fri
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Solitude1056: this is one for the ES essays page! -- Masq, 09:17:32 01/17/03 Fri
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Re: Angel & Film Noir (spoilers up 4.08 Habeas Corpses) -- ponygirl, 09:37:33 01/17/03 Fri
It's interesting how over the course of the series how murky Angel's goals have become. Helping people, connecting with society, fulfilling his destiny, redemption, all these things have pretty much fallen by the wayside. Perserving his family, whether through finding Connor, rescuing Lorne, helping Cordelia, became his primary focus, any baddies defeated along the way were merely incidental. When Angel threw Connor out at the end of Deep Down he seemed to state a new code, that of living as a champion should. But I wonder if that truly is a moral certainty for him.
If the Beast truly is connected to Connor, it could be seen as all of the internal conflicts of Angel's family manifest, the destructive forces that Angel has kept locked within taking shape and wreaking havoc. What noir hero wouldn't secretly mind seeing the smug club patrons killed, or his enemies slaughtered, or the skies raining fire on the city when he realizes he has been betrayed by those he loves? Gothic noir! It sums it up perfectly. Thanks for a great essay slain!
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You mentioned Lorne... -- slain, 13:29:08 01/17/03 Fri
Lorne strikes me as a very Noir character - if he wasn't green (or, in a Film Noir, a funny shade of grey) then he would fit into many a films - he's all about moral ambiguity and about alienation from human society. The only time he becomes involved with humanity, well, he's been kidnapped and forced into slavery; Lorne exists on the fringes or the underbelly. A lot of the time, he's a voice of the Noir in the story - he's more interested in saving himself and his friends than in saving the world, and isn't convinced by battles of good and evil. He recognises that there is evil, and that AI are good, but he doesn't want to get involved beyond this.
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Re: You mentioned Lorne... -- ponygirl, 14:22:18 01/17/03 Fri
Lorne's status as an outsider and somewhat morally neutral figure is further reinforced by his coding, in the language of '40s films, as a gay character. This is not something we're used to in this era (fortunately), but in the time of film noir, the urbane, nattily attired male character was meant to be perceived as gay and therefore seen as offering a perspective of worldly detachment in keeping with film noir. Think a Claude Rains character or Clifton Webb in Laura. The ambiguity of Lorne's sexuality reinforces the idea of his being a character that is would be more at home in an old Hollywood film, emphasizing the noirish origins of AtS.
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This is excellent (Spoilers, S3) -- Rahael, 16:54:41 01/17/03 Fri
And will reward much rereading. I know next to nothing about Noir as a genre, so excuses beforehand.
Just a couple of points that struck me. I once read a comment on someone's blog when S3 was airing about how "Is Angel even a hero anymore"? They were disgusted.
But as you've pointed out, the very idea of heroism is contested and the idea of "Angel, Champion of Good" and "Angelus, scourge of Europe" exist in uneasy tension. I think this is explored in Pylea, where the distinctions break down.
I too think Corruption is a huge theme in AtS, and reminds me of 18thC literature with dichotomies between Country and City (which is where Pylea comes in also), and I think is a theme echoed by Holtz's promises to Justine and Connor about a new life in Utah.
Also striking was your point about the barrier between Angel and Cordy - could that have been more emphasised in "Tomorrow"? Just as they were about to meet, they are moved away from each other.
Really good stuff, this essay! I think, even though you have received many replies, you should still call it "Are you Noir or Have You Ever Been" ;)
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Re: This is excellent (Spoilers, S4) -- slain, 11:21:53 01/18/03 Sat
Talking about heroes, I don't think there's ever been a more incongrous figure in AtS, since the Buffy crossovers, than Groo (what the hell happened to him, anyway..? I've honestly completely forgotten). He has no concept of the morality of the city at all; both Angel and Cordy, noir heroes, find him attractive or aspire to be him. But he doesn't fit - Groo is what Buffy was to Angel, in this sense, someone they want to be with, but who is unattainable. Angel aspires to be more like Groo, because Groo was oblivious to the grey morality. In BtVS, Angel came across as someone with a more sophisticated morality than many of the other characters, able to educate Buffy and Faith - but in AtS it seems like he's no longer happy with that intellectual distance, he wants to simplify everything and he feels (apparently not unreasonably) that Cordy would love him if he were able to be more like Groo. And, after all, she slept with Connor, someone who seems to share Holtz's moral certainties: the thing Angel admired about him even when Holtz was trying to kill him.
Got me thinking again - all I was originally going to say is that, looking at some of the puns used in BtVS and AtS episode titles, 'AY Noir OHYEB' seems fairly fitting!
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Angel and Connor -- Rufus, 23:07:46 01/17/03 Fri
First off I'll mention that in the Buffyverse the main character is more of a classic hero, one who has always been heroic doesn't need "redemption" and is in fact the lamb sacrificed for the greater good of the world. Buffy is a hero....Angel the anti-hero always in danger of becoming what he once was as a demon because he is a work in progress who can easily get distracted from his quest for redemption by his less than perfect life circumstances. Angel still does things that put the term "hero" into question. His journey may seem more interesting for some because he is less likely to follow rules. Buffy is more of a messianic figure where contact with her has people reach out to become more than they were, namely Angel, Spike, but also every character in BTVS, they have all become more than they would have been without her. On ATS you see a different struggle with a less than defined goal to reach.
As Angel does not have a more perfect image to live up to he is more free to make mistakes that Buffy would have been condemned for. He gets away with participating in a murder of 15 people, he frequently plays less than fair, and he lets his conflicted emotions allow him to get sidetracked causing a struggle to refind that path to redemption. The latest distraction is Connor who forces Angel to deal with his feelings about family, about the father/son relationship. There is always this troubling prophecy to rememeber "the father shall kill the son"...did we truly see that come to pass, or is a bigger tragedy brewing?
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Even though I don't get half of this... -- Tchaikovsky, 04:01:36 01/18/03 Sat
What I do understand of it is extremely insightful. I've never been deeply religious about keeping away from spoilers. It's more about nuances to me than the broad plots which happen. I'm talking Giles in 'Passion' here. There are no number of spoilers about Jenny Calendar's death which can prepare you for Head's performance. So I read this anyway.
And thank you so much for your response to my rubbishing of 'I Will Remember You'. This is the most compelling argument for its necessity and message that I've read. It's certainly interesting that Buffy comes across as somewhat alien in the episode. I delighted in the scene with Cordelia, where Buffy is obsessed with finding Angel, while Cordelia has other things on her mind. And it's BUFFY who comes across as self-involved! Beautiful. The idea of taking her out of her own show, so that it's not 'All. About. Her.' works really well. And the melodrama of Angel/Buffy seems inappropriate to the tone of the show because... it's a noir film for television. Buffy is a character from another show who subverts the conventions. It's like Homer Simpson walking into Central Perk and people wondering why he's yellow, [he would probably wonder why the audience think the show's funny as well, but I'm digressing badly].
Thanks anyway.
TCH
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Re: Even though I don't get half of this... -- slain, 11:05:57 01/18/03 Sat
"Central Perk. Heh heh. It's like 'Park', but with an 'E'... Hmm, muffins. Hey - where's the beer?!"
Just imagining Homer in 'Friends'.
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Fantastic -- Calvin, 10:09:50 01/18/03 Sat
I was all set to write out a long reply, but time ran out and I have to move today. Where am I moving? Why, Los Angeles of course! This will probably be archived by the time I get around to replying, but I will post a separate response if need be. Again, wonderful job. Kudos.
Calvin
ps - All I know is, I'd better see some demons or vampires when I get there, because on "Angel", they're frickin' everywhere.
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