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Angel 4.8 and Resident Evil (spoils) -- neaux, 04:50:11 01/16/03 Thu

When the girl and the white room were first introduced at W&H, immediate connections were made to the movie Resident Evil.

Now it looks as if Angel's creators decided to do their own little remake of the movie for the small screen.

Although I remember seeing zombies in the trailer, I totally forgot about them when I started watching this episode. It wasnt until W&H began going under lock down that It dawned on me that this was like Resident Evil. And the the BIG Light Bulb came on that "Hey! we have zombies!! cool!"

So lets do the similarities and differences.
1.W&H goes underlock down when The Beast enters its facility.
1. The Umbrella Corporation goes underlock down when the deadly T-Virus is let loose in the company.

2.The Beast kills almost everyone in the company.
2.The T-Virus kills almost everyone in the Umbrella corp.

3. Milla Jovovich and crew go into company to isolate the virus.
3. Angel and crew enter W&H to get Connor out.

4.Something at W&H is making the dead reanimated. Is it W&H or is it the Beast? Well Gunn gets bit by a zombie and nothing happens, as of yet anyway.
4.The T-Virus is the cause for the reanimation in Resident Evil. The T-Virus acts as a genetic mutation. Getting bit or scratched by a zombie causes you to turn.

5. The Red Queen is the key to escaping.
5. The girl in the white room helps Angel's crew escape.

I'm sure there is more, but its almost time for my work to start today.. so I have to cut this lesson short.

So what does it mean other than homage?? Well, first off it makes the viewer wonder if Gunn really will suffer side effects from his bite. It also makes us wonder what caused the zombies? The company or the beast.

Resident Evil also ends with Milla waking up in Racoon City to an apocolyptic end. Is this forshadowing??

sorry to cut it short!! must work!!

[> A more interesting Conclusion concerning Cordy -- neaux, 06:30:44 01/16/03 Thu

One of the major plot points of the Resident Evil movie was that the main character Alice played by Milla Jovovich started the movie under the influence of Amnesia and as the movie progressed she realized she had special abilities of ass-kicking, so she started remembering her past. It wasnt till the end of the movie that she remembered who she was.

What is also interesting is how this kinda parallels Cordy's storyline this year. The first half of this season was devoted to her amnesia. Is there more to the reason why Angel didnt allow Cordy to fight against the BEAST in W&H??

[> [> Re: A more interesting Conclusion concerning Cordy -- JM, 07:03:43 01/16/03 Thu

Ooh! Neat idea. I will be interesting to see what develops.

[> Re: Angel 4.8 and Resident Evil (spoils) -- shadowkat, 07:23:23 01/16/03 Thu

Kudos - you found the recent pop culture reference - i didn't see it, since all I've seen of Resident Evil are well the previews. (Becoming increasingly convinced that these writers spend a great deal of time watching B (or A) horror movies and playing video games.)

I kept trying to figure out what the little girl reminded me of - that's it the Resident Evil commercials.

The other reference is George Romero's Night of The Living Dead and Day of the Dead.

Except I think when they wrote this - they were thinking more of Resident Evil because of this moment alone:

.Something at W&H is making the dead reanimated. Is it W&H or is it the Beast? Well Gunn gets bit by a zombie and nothing happens, as of yet anyway.
4.The T-Virus is the cause for the reanimation in Resident Evil. The T-Virus acts as a genetic mutation. Getting bit or scratched by a zombie causes you to turn.

In the entire history of the Buffyverse not once is it suggested that being bit by or attacked by a zombie while automatically turn you into one. (Although Joyce's friend Pat is killed by one in DMP and turns into one - it's not because she was just bit and also the Mask was animating everything that was dead.) So I found Wes' comment to Gunn sort of odd and jarring. In fact my initial reaction was: "WHAT? not according to everything we've learned on Btvs..."

I doubt Gunn will become a zombie - complete mislead. They wanted us to fear his entrance into the room Fred and Wes were in - I think. And well it worked for me.

Interesting hacking off of a recent horror movie. Hmmm..almost makes me want to rent it.

Also like you're take on Cordelia below. I think there's a reason Cordy doesn't remember most of the stuff in the other dimension. I also wonder if maybe the Powers or whatever elevated her didn't do it partly to break her and Angel apart. It is interesting at any rate - how people seem to be separating Cordy more and more from the gange, while Wes is slowly rejoining it.

Cordy's powers are at first what makes her a necessary part of the gange. Then they start to set her apart - when she is made part demon to deal with the pain. Then it's Groo's return that separates her. Then it's the Powers that BE or Skip or whatever gave her those powers. Then it's her loss of memory and distrust of Angel. Then her memory of the Beast vision and an odd association with Angel and her memory of reliving through Angelus and his victims everything Angelus ever did. But up until that point - Angel still wanted her in the gang, wanted and needed her as a vital part. Then comes her sleeping with Connor - the final nail - the one thing that causes Angel to want her out to separate her.

Notice it is Angel's decision now who is a part of the gang and who isn't. (Just as it is Buffy's in her show). If Angel wanted Wes out - Wes was out, didn't matter what Gunn or Fred thought. If Angel wants Wes in - Wes is in. Same with Cordelia. Fred. Gunn or Connor. One wonders what will happen when and if Angel stops being the core, the leader? When it happened before things were simple - Cordy, Gunn and Wes - just friends, no romantic triangles. Now??

[> [> More on the bite.. -- neaux, 07:58:01 01/16/03 Thu

First of.. I think your analysis of who's in and out of the group makes perfect sense..

but the reason I found Gunn's bite interesting..

Honestly I dont think Gunn will suffer any problems from the bite.. but if they did do something with the zombie bite it would make Gunn's statement about Gavin much more prophetic or forshadowy.

When He sees Gavin and decapitates him saying something along the lines of "I cant stand to see someone I know like that".. We should assume Gunn is talking about his sister.

But what if it is foreshadowing something between Gunn and Fred? Could one of them become evil-y? or have some dead disease? Or could it just signify that something will happen to one of the two where Gunn must face up to his Dead issues and accept people for who they are.

[> Re: Angel 4.8 and Resident Evil (spoils) -- Utopia, 21:38:08 01/16/03 Thu

The moment I saw all those bodies lying there I *so* thought of Resident Evil. I caught the Red Queen/Evil Red Riding Hood parallel...but I haven't seen the movie, so, um, I'm working from trailers too. Actually, it reminded me more of the game.

Ok, we all got the corporate evil with the unspeakable zombie horror locked inside the company headquarters bit.

But:

We also have the Unstoppable Beast who walks with slow and heavy steps, kills everything in it's path, and keeps on coming no matter how much you shoot it. Sorta like the Tyrant.

We have the unlikely secret passages that lead to the sewers.

We have the Final Escape in the secret elevator (that needs to be repaired) to a big clear area (White Room/Heliport) only to find The Beast/Tyrant standing between Our Heroes and safety.

Finally, Our Heroes don't beat the Bad by themselves. (Or at all.) They have outside help in the form of the Little Evil Girl/Wussy Brad...and frankly they would've been up the creek without it.

Hm. All they were missing was some ludicrously complicated puzzle involving classical sculpture!

[> [> Like the puzzle Fred solved in Provider? -- Arethusa, 08:12:31 01/17/03 Fri

The FE and the slayer line connection -- masio, 07:44:08 01/16/03 Thu

since my last post has been erased for no good reason

I was watching Buffy season 3 on dvd late last night and i realized a connection while watching Amends and Grad. Day part 2.

In Amends, Buffy reads that " 'It' will be born of man and goat ...and one will speak only in riddles.

In Grad. Day part 2, In the dream sequence, Faith speaks only in riddles and buffy even calls her on it. I'm not sure where this leads, especially with the goat and man thing, but i think there is definatly a connection.

how bout the rest of you?

[> Your post was archived -- Scroll, 10:37:10 01/16/03 Thu

At the top-right of the board are the Archives: 1 2 3 4 5 which house old threads. I think yours is in Archive 1.

To answer your speculation, I think the "born of man and goat" seems to refer to Satan, since most authorities portray him as having the upper body of a man, the legs of a goat, horns, cloven hooves, etc. So I actually see this description fitting the Beast over on Angel rather than the FE, who keeps changing shape. OTOH, there might not be a connection at all. Slayer dreams are usually cryptic and full of riddles. That's just how they are. Ordinary dreams are like that too...

[> [> Re: Your post was archived -- masio, 12:39:27 01/16/03 Thu

then again

I just watched Faith, Hope and Trick and there just happened to be a cloven baddie named Kalkistos or something.

Could this be the goat?

And Buffy is from the man?

remember that Faith's past is sketchy at best

[> [> and thanx for the info about the archives -- masio, 12:40:52 01/16/03 Thu

[> Re: The FE and the slayer line connection -- AgnosticSorcerer, 22:08:13 01/16/03 Thu

You must pay for thine vile crimes! You made me think and do a little superficial research on a topic that has been mulling over my head.

I think there have been numerous allusions or perhaps it's just my own over-active speculation that the Slayer or that primeval source from which the Slayer draws her powers from is not "white" (to use recent Lilah Logic) and is at /best/ grey. It's been hinted at, I believe, on several occasions that the Slayer has demonic origins and Buffy has proven more than once to be quite hostile to this idea. Personally, I think this concept is being unravelled slowly season by season hence why I am forced to go backwards with the quotes I utilize in this post.

Dracula in "Before Dawn" says of the Slayer:

'... your power is rooted in darkness. You must feel it'
and
'You think you know what you are, what's to come. You haven't even begun. Find it, the darkness,; find your true nature.'

Further backwards into the Buffy timeline, Tara makes a statement that Dracula would later reiterate verbatim:

'You think you know what you are, what's to come. You haven't even begun.'

Later that episode after being subtley accused by Human-Adam of being something less than human, Buffy asserts:

"We're not demons."

Thus far we have two references to darkness/"black"/evil made by Buffy herself and by Tara (who may be a projection of Buffy's inner fears or perhaps even her uncanny sixth sense) and then finally by Dracula. I think at this point it's obvious that the Slayer might have some connection to darker forces in a way that does not fit the definitive dichotomy of "good guy & bad guy".

A SIDE NOTE: {{An interesting thought occurred just now, but I am not sure if it ties in with the rest of the subject matter herein so I am seperating it. Adam, as I have said, had been trying to understand humans and demons (albeit in a rather grotesque manner) hoping that the knowledge he gains from their nature will augment and improve his own nature, but the Enjoined (a being whose nature is undoubtedly comprised of the mystical, mundane, and profane) denies him his accomplishment stating:

'You could never hope to grasp the source of our power.'}}

Further back in Season 3 we get to the scene masio originally mentioned in which Buffy notes Faith speaking in riddles.

Faith: "Oh yeah. - Miles to go - Little Ms. Muffet counting down from 7-3-0."
Buffy: "Great. - Riddles."
Faith: "Sorry, it's my head. A lot of new stuff." (Graduation Day 2; Season 3)

The above dialouge between Buffy and Faith is of no real importance or meaning until one connects it with a scene further backwards in "Amends":

Buffy: "A child shall be born of man and goat and have two heads, and
The First shall speak only in riddles..." (Amends; Season 3)

The child referenced here, I believe, is the Slayer or perhaps more appropriately, the force that is the Slayer. The two heads, of course, are Faith and Buffy and respectively, the First and Second heads of this child's body (the Slayer). The second head (Buffy) later takes note that the first head (Faith) is speaking in riddles.

But what does this have to do with demons and darkness in relation to the Slayer? Well, the excerpt from Amends says that the child (the Slayer) is born of both man and goat; the latter I believe to representative of demonic forces (e.g., Satan, Baphomet, and recently the big bad on AtS).

So we come full circle in this line of speculation and I do not suspect I will get any farther until ME provides more of the "clues" as above. The only reference I cannot comprehend is the numbers 7, 3, and 0. Those three numbers in that order have been repeated on Buffy time and time again and the only logical explanation I can fathom would be the 30th episode of the 7th season (7:30; 7.30). I even went so far as to check the Bible for any possible clues searching, first, Revelations 7:30 but there are only 17 verses in the seventh chapter of Revelations. I checked other Biblical possibilities (i.e., the seventh book, third chapter, etc) but to no avail. Anybody have any thoughts on the significance of this number?

These are the connections I have made and I could be completely off base, but I've been thinking about this Buffy has been in syndication on FX.

ANOTHER SIDENOTE: {{I would like to mull over this some more as well as my previous side note had brought up further speculations and musings that are quite interesting involving a macrocosmic view of the Universe and how the forces of Good/Light and Evil/Darkness fit into it as well as the Slayer being the embodiment of such. Maybe Buffy is the embodiment of microcosmic good and evil forming a macrocosmic universe but on a lesser degree whereas on a greater degree, it's the Enjoined? Perhaps the Enjoined is what Buffy could become if her full nature is realized?

Ay, in the word of Cordelia, "Now I'm going to be stuck with serious thoughts all day."}}

[> [> Re: The FE and the slayer line connection -- AgnosticSorcerer, 22:33:19 01/16/03 Thu

"But what does this have to do with demons and darkness in relation to the Slayer? Well, the excerpt from Amends says that the child (the Slayer) is born of both man and goat; the latter I believe to representative of demonic forces (e.g., Satan, Baphomet, and recently the big bad on AtS)."

Well, that was a rather inconclusive paragraph and it should read:

But what does this have to do with demons and darkness in relation to the Slayer? Well, the excerpt from Amends says that the child (the Slayer) is born of both man and goat; the latter I believe to representative of demonic forces (e.g., Satan, Baphomet, and recently the big bad on AtS). This information coupled with the entirety of the above in the post (Dracula's words, Buffy's, Tara's, etc) all seem to point in one direction: the Slayer is more than an uberchick. She may have nefarious links to forces unfathomably dark and evil even if by lineage.

[> [> Re: The FE and the slayer line connection -- Dochawk, 22:47:31 01/16/03 Thu

First off the 730 and Miss Muffet quotes have been quite explained many times by SMG and Joss as referring to the appearance of Dawn (miss Muffett - you even get one of the crazy people talking about her curds and way in season 5) and the time between the dream and Buffy's death (730 days or 2 years).

And secondly, why would we take any demon's word for it that Buffy is dark? Of course they say it. They have ulterior motives and have no reason not to lie. The only (slight) evidence that is reliable that Buffy may have demonic basis is the story in Tales of the Slayers (Graphic Novel) where the original slayer is chased from her hometown because the townsfolk believe she has been raised from demons (which is liekly a town folktale). I believe Joss has promised us answers to this this season, so I am looking forward to it.

[> [> [> Re: The FE and the slayer line connection -- AgnosticSorcerer, 23:44:04 01/16/03 Thu

"First off the 730 and Miss Muffet quotes have been quite explained many times by SMG and Joss as referring to the appearance of Dawn (miss Muffett - you even get one of the crazy people talking about her curds and way in season 5) and the time between the dream and Buffy's death (730 days or 2 years)."

Sorry. I would not know such information as my only exposure to the Buffyverse would be the show itself. I don't generally read interviews or legitimate analyses unless I am presented with them. If anyone has the interview or the explanations to the 730 allusion, I'd be much obliged.

"And secondly, why would we take any demon's word for it that Buffy is dark? Of course they say it. They have ulterior motives and have no reason not to lie."

I find it far too convenient that Dracula said the same exact thing that "Tara" said in Buffy's dream in _Restless_. Such an occurrence appears to me that something greater is being hinted at other than that the minor baddie was attempting to convert our beloved hero. Also, I was considering other factors than Dracula's word.

And while I'm at it, what's with the bile?

[> [> [> [> Re: The FE and the slayer line connection -- Flo, 05:33:06 01/17/03 Fri

You can find a great deal of the 7-3-0 discussions in the archives -- just do a search and have fun perusing!

Some thoughts about Kennedy (spoilers for Showtime and Bring on the Night)) -- Shiraz, 08:20:36 01/16/03 Thu

I was really impressed by the episode, but a few things struck me about our favorite proto-slayer Kennedy.

For one, she seems to have changed dramatically from the last episode to this one. In "Bring on the Night" she's just as scared as the other girls, and doesn't seem too confident about Buffy's ability to protect them.

However, by "Showtime" she's the very personification of confidence. She's utterly fearless when faced with the threat of the Ubervamp, even though she (and Molly) have more reason than any of the others to be terrified.

In short, in the time between "Bring on the Night" and "Showtime" Kennedy had become a prime example of a Mary Sue.

I know this won't be popular, but hear me out:

From the very beginning of this episode she's shown as separate, and by implication better, than the other proto-slayers. She's in Willows room, on the bed, while everybody else is on the floor in the living room.
Why isn't Willow sleeping in Willow's bed? Oh right, that Kennedy, she's so cute and talented that she just naturally deserves better treatment. Either that or Willow has reverted to her season one doormat status.

But wait there's more! She's rich, her family has a house in the Hamptons, but she's still down to earth. (Mary Sues are either ultra-rich or dirt poor, never middle or working class).

She's got Faith's rampant sexuality, but without those pesky identity/trust issues.

She's got the best fashion sense of the bunch (thanks H), dressed from the start in tasteful 'slayer casual' while the others run the gamut from 'urban waif' to complete and utter fashion victim.

She's a better fighter than all the rest of the protos. put together, expertly punching and kicking while the rest fumble and drop their stakes.

When everyone else (including Willow, Dawn, and Xander) is terrified about the upcoming attack, she's downright Perky, laughing off the other's fear of imminent death.

And finally, the corker for me, she's been using a crossbow since she was eight(!) and very casually kills a bringer with it (something Dawn couldn't do).

I guess my point is that the character just seems a little too convenient for me; like the writers had painted giant "LOOK AT ME! I'M THE IMPORTANT ONE," signs on her. It struck me that the protoslayers were being done like they used to do cheap cartoons, with only one or two animated characters and the rest being just painted on the backdrops, with the occasional blinking eyes.

It might just be me though.

-Shiraz

Tourist, Rincewind decided, meant "idiot".

-- (Terry Pratchett, The Colour of Magic)

[> There's no doubt -- Sophist, 09:01:16 01/16/03 Thu

that the writers want us to like her. I'm not sure if this is a mislead, or they're doing for her what JW did for Oz --that is, they have to go overboard to make us like her in order to overcome lingering issues about Tara.

I think I can explain one of your concerns:

Why isn't Willow sleeping in Willow's bed? Oh right, that Kennedy, she's so cute and talented that she just naturally deserves better treatment. Either that or Willow has reverted to her season one doormat status.

Because of Kennedy's flirtatious comments, I think Willow opted for the "less confusing floor" (paraphrasing her "less confusing waffles" statement to Oz in NMR).

[> [> Re: There's no doubt -- Shiraz, 09:20:40 01/16/03 Thu

I understand that, but my point is it's Willow's bed to begin with!

It's Kennedy that should be banished to the floor. Especially since Willow seems to be the only one in the house sharing their room.

Were left with the impression that she waltzed into Willow's room and dove onto the bed while Willow was out. Which strikes me as a little presumptuous.

Dinner and movie first young lady!

-Shiraz

"Let's just say that if complete and utter chaos was lightning, he'd be the sort to stand on a hilltop in a thunderstorm wearing wet copper armour and shouting 'All gods are bastards'."

-- Rincewind discussing Twoflower (Terry Pratchett, The Colour of Magic)

[> [> [> Maybe it is significant after all (Spoilers for Showtime) -- Sophist, 10:55:30 01/16/03 Thu

On thinking it over, Kennedy's behavior certainly qualifies as presumptious (he said wistfully). Willow was the dominant partner in her relationship with Tara, but was not in her crush on Xander and probably not with Oz. Willow's reversion to her earlier behavior is probably intended to be consistent with her now-humble attitude towards her power and, perhaps, her self-worth. My guess is that they will use Kennedy to restore her confidence; we probably saw the first step with the floating candle in Showtime.

[> [> [> [> lest we forget -- Clen, 14:14:58 01/16/03 Thu

Mary Sue Kennedy might be, but wasn't Kendra aware of it all from a young age -- confident, dry, secure, raise a hand if you're sure -- and how many eps did she last???

Of course, Kennedy is much more socially skilled and flirtacious than Kendra (Kendra, ironically, the loner who died amongst friends) But still, being the best technically competent and confident slayer is no protection.

Hey! Their names share many letters. Kennedy might also stand out the most because she's doing the best job of keeping the camera's attention, maybe the best potential actress as opposed to being the best potential slayer. ME would naturally move to accomodate.

[> [> [> [> [> since writers are inherently somewhat evil.... -- leslie, 14:44:02 01/16/03 Thu

...wouldn't it be just like ME to create a Mary Sue AND THEN KEEP HER?

[> [> [> I think that was supposed to be the assumption made.... -- Briar Rose, 15:03:06 01/16/03 Thu

I saw it as exactly that, especially after the revelation that Kennedy is a Daughter of Priviledge: Kennedy pushed her way into Willow's room, because she is used to comfort and getting her way and because she is attracted to Willow.

Willow basically asked her 'Why are you not downstairs with the other girls?', so Willow didn't apparently invite Kennedy in to her bed, nor room. Otherwise why would Willow be asking why she was there? Kennedy also was blatantly trying to compel Willow into the bed. Just as Kennedy pushed the flirt in the previous episode, and ignored the look of shock and whatever (was that distaste? anger? or just umbrage at the overt move? The shadows on AH's face made that look very hard to read as any one emotion.) Willow responded to the come on with.

Since it was very much hinted that Kennedy had invited herself into Willow's room, and was taking over the bed in hopes of having physical contact from Willow, Willow chose "less confusing floor", as Sophist stated. Also as Sophist posted (nice catch!) - it harks back to past beginnings of relationships for Willow.

I see Kennedy as the least possible candidate for Slayer and probably the most likely candidate for death at the hands of the FE (and an open to be used as a Sleeper by the FE) before the end of this season. Anyone who doesn't have a healthy dose of fear is going to be dead from lack of respect for the opponent. What happens in between remains to be seen and I won't speculate on Kennedy's ultimate path with Willow. However, since I've been to Spoiler Sluts and a couple of other spoiler sites - I will speculate that Kennedy is not going to be the new Scoobie in any show to come from BtVS. And unless either Kennedy has powers we are not aware of or she has seriously warped ideas about romance and romantic partners, Willow may move off her list of desired partners quickly due to trust issues.*L There is a solid reason for that spec - but unless you want spoilers, it's better left unsaid here.....

[> [> [> [> Response to the spoilers in Briar's post (so naturally there are some future one's here) -- Sergio, 16:14:36 01/16/03 Thu

Ummmm, BR unless you are privy to a whole set of spoilers that the spoilerslayer isn't, you come to the exact opposite conclusion about their romance then many of us do.

[> [> [> [> [> Regarding Spoiler sources -- Rufus, 18:36:16 01/16/03 Thu

Spoiler Sluts is not one of the better spoiler sources out there. I rank Spoiler Slayer higher.

[> [> [> Re: There's no doubt -- Kenny, 15:29:31 01/16/03 Thu

Well, maybe it's a southern thang(tm), but I was raised that the guest always gets the bed. And it's not a doormat thing, as I always have to do the obligatory argument about it. That said, I've amended the rule slightly:

If you are male and about to pass out drunk, you get the sofa.

Of course, the point's kinda moot, as the bed has become a junk pile that no one can sleep on.

[> [> [> [> Re: There's no doubt -- Miss Edith, 19:34:15 01/20/03 Mon

Why is Kennedy the only guest who gets the bed though? I mean there are other girls living there after all. If Kennedy wasn't even invited, but just decided to share with Willow I would say that was very pushy.

[> [> [> [> [> Maybe because she's the oldest one of them. -- Finn Mac Cool, 20:29:34 01/20/03 Mon

[> More thoughts about Kennedy (spoilers for Showtime and Bring on the Night)) -- Tyreseus, 14:54:19 01/16/03 Thu

Okay, I'm writing scenes in my mind for off camera action, but this is why I think Willow is sleeping on the floor.

In Bring On the Night, when Kennedy took over sleeping arrangements for Willow, it was pretty clear that she was flirting. I think that Kennedy moved into the room and just kinda assumed Willow would be okay sharing a bed with her. Willow's way of diffusing the situation, and making it clear that she didn't jump into bed with strangers, was to offer to sleep on the floor.

I picture Willow, tired from a day of managing the Summers Boarding House for Wayward Slayers In Training, opening the door to her room and seeing Kennedy lying on the bed and trying to be seductive. Willow does, in fact, revert back to her shy personality (perhaps a flashback to Dopplegangland) and says something like, "Oh, um, hi." Kennedy responds, "Man, I'm so beat... jetlag, you know." Willow replies, "Yeah, um, so you must be really tired." Kennedy says, "Yeah, but I'm not really sleepy, you know?" Willow says, "Oh, but sleep is good. We should definately get some sleep." "Okay." Kennedy crawls under the blankets of Willow's bed.

Wilow looks a little lost, "oh, well, yeah. You're the guest, so you get the bed" she pulls a blanket out of the closet and begins making a bed on the floor.

"You're going to sleep on the floor?" Kennedy asks, masking her frustration.

Chipper Willow: "Well, you are the guest."

"But..."

"Okay, sleep now. Oh, so very tired. I'll just be going to sleep on this nice comfy floor. Goodnight, Kennedy."

"Goodnight."

Both girls lie awake for a long time. Kennedy considers joining Willow on the floor, but decides she'd better take it slower.

[> [> Sounds plausible to me. -- Sophist, 17:18:14 01/16/03 Thu

[> [> Sounds plausible to me, too. -- yez, 13:32:32 01/17/03 Fri

[> [> Side bar.... Interesting thoughts come to my mind with this; -- Briar Rose, 17:51:10 01/18/03 Sat

I agree that would appear to be the off camera action and well done!

My thoughts are that perhaps we are all over thinking what the actual focus of the story line that ME is putting forward as being more than it is?

When the Para_Slayers are introduced, they are obviously being used as a mirror to show the advances and differences in the way we think, act and feel in adolescence comparing The Scoobies now to the Scoobies past.

In this one case:

Willow is a true adult now. She has known love, she has experienced loss. And in varied forms that are all parts of real life; death, romantic breakups, medical conditions (Oz and Tara after Glory's mind meld) and just plain moving/life style changes (Giles).

Meanwhile Kennedy is coming from a child's view point. She hears that Willow lost a lover. She hears that Willow is "recovering." But what Kennedy doesn't have the maturity to understand is that love and loss are actually heart rendering events. That she is not dealing with a fellow "child" who is simply pining for a lover who moved to another school (so to speak.) Death of a loved one, especially a peer AND a lover to senseless violence, is not known to her. That Willow's experiences are beyond anything she herself could ever comprehend at this point in her life, and maybe ever.

This can almost be seen in each of the Para-Slayers compared to Buffy (and Dawn, etc.) In the Proto-Slayers we have scared, clueless and emotionally immature children who are compared and contrasted to Buffy (much the same as the SITS then) when she was first informed of her calling and who she has become in all ways since. Also only through the trials of love, loss and personal sacrifice. In Buffy's case you add in the roles of Parent and her own death(s) to show the total difference between Child and Adult.

Thus "back to season one" in this case seems to be teaching the next generation through the adult's experiences and knowing that they are going to make mistakes, not understand all the concepts that Buffy and the rest understand now, nor be able to act, think or feel like the more experienced members of the gang because they AREN'T.

In a way - it is an age old story tha has been hit upon before in the Joss/Buffy-verse. Giles put it best with, "Your path's uncertain and it's all uphill.... You can face it, but you never will. And I'm the reason that your standing still. Wish I could stay. But I'm standing in the way." Giles spoke as the "parent" who so wishes to keep the hurt and pain of life from their children but knows that everyone has to learn from their own mistakes. He's played that role since scene one, episode one. And now the mantle Giles wore has been passed to Buffy.

Buffy is now the "parent" of these children. She learned to survive and prosper (even though she is still learning, which is another lesson of life - we always will) and she now has to try and teach the proto-slayers to do the same with their own gifts in their own life.

Buffy has become Giles. The SITs have become the Scoobies once upon a time.*S*

[> [> [> Excellent points -- Sophist, 15:43:58 01/19/03 Sun

[> Re: Some thoughts about Kennedy (spoilers for Showtime and Bring on the Night)) -- Flo, 22:56:12 01/16/03 Thu

Thanks for raising these Kennedy points, Shiraz, even knowing you'd get some backlash! That said, here's mine:

"For one, she seems to have changed dramatically from the last episode to this one. In "Bring on the Night" she's just as scared as the other girls, and doesn't seem too confident about Buffy's ability to protect them.

However, by "Showtime" she's the very personification of confidence. She's utterly fearless when faced with the threat of the Ubervamp, even though she (and Molly) have more reason than any of the others to be terrified."

I think the change in confidence level between BOtN and Showtime isn't as distinct as you imply. In BOtN, Kennedy is the one who insists that they have weapons. She also demonstrates quite a bit of confidence in her sly proposition to Willow.

Speaking of Willow -- I don't think Kennedy's flirting constitutes the "rampant sexuality of Faith." She's a little forward, but only with the one person she is attracted to rather than rampantly with anyone who'll have her.

I'm not sure what to think of her upper-class background. On one hand, I appreciate that they don't, then, typecast her as a typical upper-class snob, as they did with Cordelia, but instead make her likeable and down-to-earth. OTOH, she does seem too good to be true. Added to the background blinking (thanks for the LOL moment!) of the proto-slayers, and you're right -- Kennedy is a little too obvious.

[> [> Personal theory -- KdS, 03:49:11 01/17/03 Fri

That after the DeadEvilLesbian controversy ME are overcompensationg and making her a bit too much of a role model.

[> [> [> Re: Personal theory -- Flo, 05:38:37 01/17/03 Fri

Well, now, this theory means that ME is resting most of her character development on a motivation to develop a queer character/ appeal to (or appease) a queer-friendly audience. Pretty radical -- I like it.

I think, though, that they've got some other significant motives behind their development of Kennedy. What those might be, I still don't know. I won't be surprised if she becomes the next slayer, and I won't be surprised if she dies first thing next episode.

Ah, the guessing game that is the life of an ME groupie...

[> [> [> [> Re:Re: Personal theory -- Alison, 13:02:19 01/17/03 Fri

I personally think that Kennedy will die, and whoever this new potential is(Dawn?), they will play a major role and/or become the next slayer.
And IMO, it is far too early for Willow to get involved in another relationship--you don't just move on after you go on a killing spree for someone, even keeping in mind that in near death situations, things change.

[> [> [> [> [> Re:Re: Personal theory -- Dochawk, 23:07:46 01/17/03 Fri

I doubt highly Kennedy will be killed. They would have made her far more sympathetic (ME makes their subcharacters much more sympathetic when they kill them, which scares me for Lilah's health).

And how long are you "supposed" to mourn in real life after a loved one is killed? Ten months isn't enough? At age 21? This is how long Willow has mourned already (april to february, I'm assuming that it won't happen in the next episode) In real life that seems to be quite enough for a 21 year old, even if Tara was her once in a lifetime love. And this is a TV story, if Willow does get a new girlfriend, I really hope we give her the benifit of the doubt because in real time, Willow has had plenty of time to mourn. And of course in highly stressed situations, relationships develop that wouldn't happen otherwise (ie Buffy/Spike in season 6. And we know the angst over Tara isn't over yet, even if Willow does have a new relationship we know it aint gonna be a bed of roses (well unless Angelus returns).

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re:Re: Personal theory -- Miss Edith, 19:45:44 01/20/03 Mon

Well for me it's not so much that Willow is mourning Tara, it's more about her mental state. Considering she tried to end the world after losing Tara I would say she needs to spend some time dealing with herself right now, rather than leaping into another relationship that I don't personally believe she's ready for.

[> [> The Cuban Missile Crisis and Southern Hospitality -- Malandanza, 08:19:32 01/17/03 Fri

"Speaking of Willow -- I don't think Kennedy's flirting constitutes the "rampant sexuality of Faith." She's a little forward, but only with the one person she is attracted to rather than rampantly with anyone who'll have her."

The two other slayers we've seen, Kendra and Faith, each started out being too good to be true. Kendra was the efficient, professional perfect slayer while Faith was the very cool, self-assured, slayer who was comfortable with her sexuality in way the scoobies clearly were not. It is only later that we discover that Faith and Kendra have gross emotional problems.

I also don't have a problem with Kennedy being initially afraid, but now exuding confidence. If we look at Wesley when he first came to Sunnydale, when he had to face real monsters in uncontrolled circumstances for the first time, he crumbled. Similarly, supremely confident Faith was actually in Sunnydale fleeing from Kakistos -- it took Buffy's pep talk and to get her to stand up to her fears. Later, however, once he'd had his adjustment phase, he became more competent. I think what we're seeing with Kennedy is a mixture of her slayer training taking over and a little bravado (I suspect she's ashamed of her early behavior and is trying to cover it up now).

Another thing about Kennedy -- she been trained as a slayer since she was very young. It seems that being a slayer is something she has looked forward to -- she was a bit wistful when she said that she may be too old to be chosen. A little bit of danger girl in her, perhaps. So, she's in a new area, filled with danger and looking for vicarious thrills. She wants information about the people she's living with -- but Buffy, Willow and Xander are all too busy to supply her with their autobiographies. The natural source of information would be Dawn. Now, consider what Dawn would say about Willow if someone made Dawn the center of attention -- she wants to keep her audience and (as we've seen with her "incredibly scary" remarks and "License to Kill" hyperbole with Andrew, she's not afraid to exaggerate) what sort of things might she have told her audience about Willow? Certainly enough to pique Kennedy's interest.

Above, Kenny mentions Southern Hospitality -- giving the best beds to the guests. From my past experiences, I know that the custom is not just restricted to the South -- my family did the same thing -- when beds were limited, the guests got the best ones and the rest of us got the floor or the couches. I can even remember my parents giving up the master bedroom to my great aunt and uncle when I was younger. However, I don't believe that Willow knows much about hospitality -- she's the girl who took over the master bedroom in the Summers' house while Buffy was dead and kept it after she had returned -- never mind that Buffy was the one struggling to pay the mortgage. Instead, she opted for the floor because she isn't ready for a sexual relationship with a girl she barely knows so soon after Tara's death. Willow's past relationships have had long courtship phases -- we haven't seen her engaging in one-night stands (and it's been a long, long time since Willow was anyone's doormat).

And I agree that Kennedy's interest in Willow isn't "rampant sexuality" -- remember that the slayers in training were looking at certain death until they reached the rather dubious sanctuary of Buffy's house -- until the Ubervamp was dusted, they all still thought they were going to die. ME has established fairly well that in the face of impending death, normal sexual conventions do not apply. The old "Cuban Missile Crisis" cliche -- one last (or first) sexual encounter before the apocalypse.

[> [> [> Re: The Cuban Missile Crisis and Southern Hospitality -- Arethusa, 08:30:19 01/17/03 Fri

"However, I don't believe that Willow knows much about hospitality -- she's the girl who took over the master bedroom in the Summers' house while Buffy was dead and kept it after she had returned -- never mind that Buffy was the one struggling to pay the mortgage."

It would be logical for two people to take the larger bed and bedroom, and they definelty hoped Buffy would be back. Why didn't Buffy take the bedroom when she returned? She spent that year avoiding the role of mother and head of the house, to whom the master bedroom belongs. She chose the role and bedroom of the adolescent, clinging to her old life. The farthest she got was talking to Spike about redecorating her room.

[> [> [> [> Re: The Cuban Missile Crisis and Southern Hospitality -- Dochawk, 10:21:49 01/17/03 Fri

Nice insight. Makes alot of sense. Although our characters have alot of flaws they really are friends and frequently do try to do whats best, in their sometimes warped way. Its not always the malevelant explaination thats best.

[> [> [> [> Re: The Cuban Missile Crisis and Southern Hospitality -- Malandanza, 12:18:42 01/17/03 Fri

"It would be logical for two people to take the larger bed and bedroom, and they defiantly hoped Buffy would be back. Why didn't Buffy take the bedroom when she returned? She spent that year avoiding the role of mother and head of the house, to whom the master bedroom belongs. She chose the role and bedroom of the adolescent, clinging to her old life. The farthest she got was talking to Spike about redecorating her room."

When I think of hospitality, I am always reminded of the Odyssey, where the host has an obligation to be hospitable, but the guest has a corresponding obligation not to overstay his welcome or demand too much of the host. Telemakhos (can you tell which translation I'm using?) and Menelaos epitomize the perfect guest and host, respectively. Telemakhos arrives at an awkward time, but is welcomed with open arms. In fact, Menelaos presses Telemakhos to stay additional time and offers him rich gifts (which Telemakhos graciously refuses). From this interaction, Menelaos
concludes that Telemakhos had a good upbringing ("you come of good stock, lad") and presses additional gifts upon Telemakhos which Telemakhos accepts. The suitors, of course, are the most egregious violators of hospitality, but Odysseus also is guilty when he visits the king of the winds the second time, after carelessly losing the first gift, and asks for another boon -- he is cast out for his presumption.

Now, I'm not suggesting that Buffy treat Willow as Odysseus treated the suitors, but the remarks you made say very little about Willow being hospitable or inhospitable and say volumes about Buffy. There was some time between Joyce's and Buffy's death and during that period, Buffy made no move to claim the master bedroom -- one might well imagine that Joyce's bedroom was untouched since her death, a kind of shrine. Thus, when Buffy wanders mutely about her house in her post resurrection stupor, she pauses as she enters Joyce's room -- Joyce is gone. Willow and Tara have exorcised her completely. Dawn is apologetic when she murmurs that it made the most sense to have W/T take the big room. As Buffy recovers, she finds that while she was thriftily dead, her friends have been paying their way with her mother's money and she is handed a stack of bills. She goes to work at a minimum wage job which she (and others) consider beneath the dignity of the Slayer, but a necessity to keep the roof over her head and provide Dawn with a home. Plus Willow and Tara, of course. Would Buffy have been justified in asking Willow or Tara to leave, to pay rent, or, if they're going to stay rent-free, leave the best room for the one paying the bills? Certainly. But Buffy is hospitable. It would have been out of character for her to toss Willow out in the street (even after Willow took Dawn to the magic Crack House). Buffy is hospitality personified.

Does it make sense for the couple to take the large bedroom? I guess so -- but remember that Willow and Tara are college students and are used to cramped dorm rooms. Buffy's room, while smaller than Joyce's, likely compares favorably to the dorms. After the Willow/Tara breakup, there was not even this rationale for Willow to have the master bedroom. In any event, it ought to have been Buffy's choice, not Willow's -- at some time Willow ought to have said "Now that you're back, we'll move back to the dorms" so Buffy would have the option of pressing her to stay, or "We'll help pay rent with my college housing money" so Buffy could refuse, or "You should have the main bedroom, Buffy. It's your house" so Buffy could tell them to take the master bedroom, she'd be fine in her old room. That these things never occurred to Willow tells me that Willow doesn't understand common courtesy -- not that she has some sort of malevolent intent of depriving Buffy of her rights in her own house -- just that she wasn't brought up properly.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: The Cuban Missile Crisis and Southern Hospitality -- Arethusa, 12:30:29 01/17/03 Fri

That could have happened, off-screen. I can't be too hard on Willow becuse I remember how very selfish and bad-mannered I was at 20. Guess we were both raised improperly. ;o)

[> [> [> [> [> Re: The Cuban Missile Crisis and Southern Hospitality -- yez, 14:15:05 01/17/03 Fri

The fact that W/T took the big room bothered me a lot, too, as it did that it's never been established that they paid rent, which they definitely should have been doing, at least after Buffy came back.

But then I thought that maybe they saw themselves as "babysitting" and just staying over in the short term until they could get Buffy back -- they were working on the plan for a while. Also, because they were planning on bringing Buffy back (and because there's that desire to keep the room like a shrine, as you point out Buffy did with Joyce's room), they wouldn't have moved into Buffy's room or changed it much.

Of course, why they didn't switch soon after Buffy was back, I don't know. And W/T should definitely have been paying for food and rent after Buffy came back.

yez

[> [> [> [> [> [> Paying Rent -- Scroll, 14:35:48 01/17/03 Fri

I'm of the opinion that Willow and Tara did pay rent, even though we have no evidence of it on screen. My only reason or proof for saying this is that in "Dead Things", Buffy accuses Dawn of letting Willow do her chores. Which seems to indicate that Willow contributes to the household in some way, that Willow pitches in and doesn't simply mooch.

And I remember that Tara (while she was there) was often the cook. In later eps, we see Willow and Dawn cooking together. So I (tenuously) draw the conclusion that Willow must've also offered to pay rent.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> I hope so. But I wish they'd tell us for sure. -- yez, 14:48:40 01/17/03 Fri

Thanks for reminding about the chores -- good point.

I agree that W/T made a lot of contributions to keeping up house and home (being there for Dawn, cooking, chores, managing Joyce's insurance money to keep the household going, etc.), but because of all the focus on Buffy's money troubles, it wouldn't been nice to know, definitively, that they were contributing that way, too.

I think, though, that W/T *must've* been paying rent at some point, because the only way I can think that Buffy was making it on a minimum wage job at the DP would be if Willow and Tara were both paying rent, Dawn was getting some kind of Social Security pittance from Joyce's death (unless the monks left that arrangement out), and Buffy's dad also was contributing a little to the equation (which would seem logical, even though I can't offer any kind of evidence of this). Because it seems highly unlikely that Buffy could afford to keep herself and Dawn in food, clothes and that big house on just DP wages.

yez

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I hope so. But I wish they'd tell us for sure. -- leslie, 15:58:38 01/17/03 Fri

I have to agree here. Even with the traditionally dire property values in Sunnydale, no way in hell could she pay the mortgage and property taxes on that house on a minimum wage job.

Some kind of Social Security income for Dawn seems to be indicated, by the way, by the appearance, if only briefly, of the Evil Social Worker--why else would social services know about her? I also think that, given that even Willow was uncertain about the success of the resurrection spell, or even the possibility of performing it unless they were able to get hold of the last Osiris jar in existence, they have to have been operating over the summer on the assumption that Buffy was permanently dead, and somehow Dawn had to be cared for. The Buffybot made it possible to pretend to the authorities that Buffy was still around to take care of her sister, but I don't think you want to trust the Buffybot with the finances. For one thing, I really, really doubt it's a skill that Spike asked to be programmed into her.

Let's make another assumption: If Tara and/or Willow are paying rent, given that most shared student houses pro-rate the rent based on the desirability of the room, it would make sense for Willow to stay in the biggest bedroom and therefore contribute more to the household income. The overall tidiness of the place seems to have slipped after Tara left, so it would seem that she was doing a lot of housework. (Though again, I think comments about untidiness are rather exaggerated for the Summers residence--Withnail and I is still the gold standard of sheer student filth.)

Finally, I don't really see any major difference in size between Joyce's room and Buffy's--Buffy's has those angled ceilings so there's a little less usable space, but it isn't like one is twice the size of the other. And I'm not really sure that it would even occur to Buffy to move out of "her" room and into "Mom's" room. Her room is her room. She's only beginning to even think about taking down high-school era posters on the wall in the middle of S6, and she was living at home for a whole year before that.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I hope so. But I wish they'd tell us for sure. -- Malandanza, 20:56:11 01/17/03 Fri

"I have to agree here. Even with the traditionally dire property values in Sunnydale, no way in hell could she pay the mortgage and property taxes on that house on a minimum wage job."

A couple of years ago, I was back in my hometown visiting relatives during the holidays and my cousin invited me out to her house -- a three bedroom affair with a central fireplace situated on horse property. She asked me what I was paying in rent for my studio apartment in the city -- and I told her. It turned out that she was paying less than I was. There is a rather dramatic difference in rent in the city and rural areas -- as well as most expenses. Given that Sunnydale is so unlivable, it wouldn't be beyond the realm of possibility that Joyce, like my cousin, paid marginally less than $500 a month for her house (which, after all, was not fully leveraged). A minimum wage job (and many of the drudge jobs pay slightly higher than minimum wage in an effort to keep employees) could bring in a little less than $1000 per month -- with Buffy not having to worry about taking out much more than the payroll tax since her gross income is close to the standard deductible. Add to that any money from her absentee father or the state and she can make the payments. Even at $700-$800 a month, she can get by -- she just isn't going to be living in luxury. Keep in mind that Joyce also had to be able to make payments -- on the income generated by a fledgling art gallery. I like the idea of social security adding to the income rather than Hank - I think we would have been told if he were helping out. Plus, there was the aid from Giles -- we don't know how much, but we know it was substantial -- and we know that Buffy desperately needed it at the time. Having the gang all pitch in and help out Buffy financially would have undermined Giles' gift and made Buffy's desperate struggle to keep her head above the financial waters somewhat less desperate -- so for dramatic purposes, it's important that Buffy had no support after Giles left her.

When Buffy's friends sat her down to discuss finances and presented her with a stack of bills, Willow says that the lack of money took them by surprise. It seems to me that if they had been helping to make ends meet, there would have been no surprise at all. I also think that the division of labor in the Summers household during Buffy's absence was:

Tara: traditional mother role -- cooking, cleaning, taking care of Dawn
Xander: Father role (minus contributing cash and disciplining the child) -- he's the one who makes sure Dawn gets to school on time and fixes things around the house, a role he continued up through the current season.
Spike: Baby-sitter
Anya: Money management -- she knew the extent of Buffy's financial woes

But Willow? I think she was busy keeping the Buffybot running and researching dark magicks -- she didn't have time for mundane things like chores or child-care. I don't think there's any evidence that Willow spent quality time with Dawn -- maybe she programmed the Buffybot to make sandwiches for Dawn, but even there I tend to think it would take longer to figure out how to make the 'bot make sandwiches than it would to make them by hand every day for a year. I tend to think that the Buffybot is really just April with a fresh coat of paint and a handful of Spike-specific subroutines -- Warren might be willing to spend hours teaching the 'bot how to make food for him -- after all, there's only so much sex a person can have in a day and it might have amused him to have a serving wench. Otherwise, perhaps the 'bot has enough artificial intelligence to have learned how to make them.

I think further evidence of Willow's lack of involvement around the house was when she offered to take Dawn to the movies (Wrecked), the idea of going out on the town with Willow seemed like something of a novelty to Dawn.

Willow and Tara moving in when Buffy was dead, taking care of Dawn (for which Tara and Xander deserve most of the credit) was a good thing -- they still might have tried to contribute financially during that period instead of using up the last of Joyce's life insurance money, but they were spending the money primarily for Dawn's benefit (and possibly even at a slower rate than would Buffy, had she been alive -- between Tara and Anya, I suspect that household expenses were kept at a minimum -- certainly, home-cooked meals help). Once Buffy was back (and burdened with debt) it ought to have been a priority for them to, if not help out then at least not add to the financial woes.

Finally, I think that if Willow had contributed money to Buffy, we would certainly have known about it. Willow would want credit for her aid, she'd make a production out of it and expect tears of gratitude in return for her assistance. It's not that I think Willow had an evil scheme and set out to ruin Buffy, it's that I think Willow is mainly concerned about Willow -- other people enter into her thinking only as they impact Willow. Money trouble in the Summers' Household only affect her tangentially -- it's not her problem, so she doesn't think about it. If someone said "Hey, Willow! Why not help out Buffy with your college room and board money?" she'd offer contribute happily and wonder why she hadn't thought of doing so previously (and forget about it before making the contribution, much as the Scoobies forgot all about making tings better for Buffy after Tabula Rasa). She's one of those people full of good intentions that rarely get past the intent stage because she just doesn't think about others.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Ooh, very harsh, Malandanza... -- yez, 22:20:41 01/17/03 Fri

... but unfortunately, it sounds very plausible. Re: Willow, I mean.

Sorry, had a few drinks tonight, and that's all I can muster.

yez

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I hope so. But I wish they'd tell us for sure. -- leslie, 11:41:19 01/18/03 Sat

"It turned out that she was paying less than I was. There is a rather dramatic difference in rent in the city and rural areas -- as well as most expenses."

Yeah, except Sunnydale isn't rural anything, it's a southern California beach community within striking distance of LA. That means that to a bank loan officer, "low" property values means that houses in Sunnydale are only mildly outrageous in price as compared to the rest of the country, instead of completely insane. And having lived in both "the city" and "the country" on both coasts, I have to say that the only really dramatic difference in other living expenses was in car insurance, and Buffy doesn't drive.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I hope so. But I wish they'd tell us for sure. -- Malandanza, 20:28:10 01/19/03 Sun

"Yeah, except Sunnydale isn't rural anything, it's a southern California beach community within striking distance of LA. That means that to a bank loan officer, "low" property values means that houses in Sunnydale are only mildly outrageous in price as compared to the rest of the country, instead of completely insane. And having lived in both "the city" and "the country" on both coasts, I have to say that the only really dramatic difference in other living expenses was in car insurance, and Buffy doesn't drive."

Sunnydale started off as a small town -- one Starbucks, the good part of town a block away from the bad part of town because there wasn't much town, etc. It seems to have grown substantially since Buffy has been there (no doubt, in part, to the Mayor's good management). But I didn't really mean that Sunnydale is a rural town, just that it is possible that small town conditions exist in a community that has a death rate that makes DC look like Mayberry (I recently got the DVDs -- can you tell?). An example that rent in Sunnydale is much cheaper than the California norm occurs in FH&T, where we find out that the apartment/hotel where Faith stays costs $18 a day -- or $540 a month. Now, from my own apartment hunting experiences, I found that the rent-by-the-week apartment/hotels were not quite twice as expensive as comparable long-term housing -- the short term apartments had utilities included, for example, but the actual cost was certainly more than 50% over the normal apartments. So, with a conservative estimate, Faith could rent an apartment in Sunnydale at something under $400 a month. Yes, you might well say, but that place was a slum -- better apartments would cost significantly more. But I don't think that's really the case -- the biggest difference between lower and middle class housing seems to be not the price, but the requirements. The more expensive apartments require a good credit history and proof that rent does not exceed 40% of your gross income -- for someone like Buffy who makes around $1000 a month, that means she would not be permitted to rent decent housing. The slum lords, OTOH, require cash -- first and last months rent and a cleaning deposit usually, but don't much care whether the rent represents a fraction of your income or all of it, as long as they get paid on time. Here in Arizona, a one bedroom apartment in a poor neighborhood costs a little more than $500 -- a two bedroom townhouse in Scottsdale can be had for $700 -- something a person making minimum wage could actually afford (provided he lived a Spartan existence) but would not be allowed to rent because the rental agency would require proof that his income was closer to $2000 a month.

I have found living expenses to be higher in the city -- I expect it is because property and labor costs more and the prices are passed along. I don't think it would have been possible to spend more than $10 on dinner at any restaurant in town (there was a steak house where you could bring your own steak and they would cook it for you for a dollar) and there certainly was no place where you could buy a $3 cup of coffee that was mostly froth and sugar. As for insurance, I have a feeling that in Sunnydale, the rates are far more expensive than the rest of the state (which is okay -- since in all probability Buffy doesn't have insurance)

There's also the possibilty that Buffy may be making more than minimum wage -- there could very well be a labor shortage in Sunnydale -- one that would hit the working classes hardest since the vamp and demons hang out in the bad parts of town.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I hope so. But I wish they'd tell us for sure. -- Miss Edith, 20:12:51 01/20/03 Mon

In Flooded Buffy is panicking about the bills and Willow never once reassures Buffy that she will help out. If she was paying rent I can't help thinkng that she would have said don't worry you'll have my rent coming in, lets agree on an amount.

I actually didn't have a problem with Willow and Tara sharing the master bedroom as it made sense to me. Buffy would have been more comfortable in her own room, and W/T were a couple. I did have a big problem with Willow's freeloading. Even Xander turns up in DMP and helps himself to free meals on Buffy's wages so I would say none of Buffy's friends are particularly considerate when it comes to money issues. They were so quick to make the bills all Buffy's problem in Flooded, without offering to share the burden.

And I'm glad I'm not the only one who has noticed Willow's tendency to be self-centered. One of the reasons I can't bear her characterisation in STSP is because she is returning home after going on a killing spree and starts sulking because the friends she terrorised aren't there to greet her. "Welcome home me" indeed. She seems to think she is entitled to love and support, and shows a real lack of sympathy to others sometimes. She wasn't friends with Faith so Faith's pain simply didn't register with her "Some people say you had a tough life...well boo hoo poor you". And this is starting to get a little O/T as so many of my posts seem to so I think I'll stop my rambling now.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I hope so. But I wish they'd tell us for sure. -- Malandanza, 08:12:45 01/21/03 Tue

We may never agree about Spike, but I think we can agree about Willow :)

"I actually didn't have a problem with Willow and Tara sharing the master bedroom as it made sense to me. Buffy would have been more comfortable in her own room, and W/T were a couple. "

It bothers me less that Willow and Tara had the master bedroom (for the reasons you and others have mentioned) and more that they never offered Buffy the chance to switch rooms -- Buffy would have refused, certainly, but the offer ought to have been made, IMO.

"I did have a big problem with Willow's freeloading. Even Xander turns up in DMP and helps himself to free meals on Buffy's wages so I would say none of Buffy's friends are particularly considerate when it comes to money issues."

I have less of a problem with Xander since he has done so much free work around the Summers' house
. I am sure he has saved Buffy more money than he has cost her. The freeloading is especially bad, though, when you consider how close Buffy was to total financial ruin -- if we assume that her disposable income was in the double digits, every additional expense adds up and any additional income would be significant.

"And I'm glad I'm not the only one who has noticed Willow's tendency to be self-centered. One of the reasons I can't bear her characterization in STSP is because she is returning home after going on a killing spree and starts sulking because the friends she terrorized aren't there to greet her. "Welcome home me" indeed. She seems to think she is entitled to love and support, and shows a real lack of sympathy to others sometimes."

I rewatched Dead Man's Party
last night and while Joyce and Xander are awful, I don't think anyone expected them to be otherwise -- Willow's behavior towards Buffy, equating her boyfriend and magic issues with Buffy's killing her first boyfriend issues was appallingly selfish and joining in with the other Scoobies to invite the school to the intimate dinner Joyce had planned for Buffy and her friends helps demonstrate that Willow really hasn't changed much since Season Three. I totally agree about the wallowing in self-pity in STSP. Even with Tara's death, Willow was angry for selfish reasons -- she lectures Warren and Buffy about how Warren took Tara from her -- no weeping about how Tara was a good and wonderful person who was murdered -- it's all about Willow. I think ME has done a very good job making Willow the most selfish and immature of the Scoobies (Dawn included) while at the same time keeping her likable (that may be due to AH's ability to emote -- it's hard to be too mad at Willow when she is in such pain -- even self-inflicted pain, like after TR).

When Willow commented to Anya about "feeling responsible" for the death and destruction she had caused, Anya's reply was perfect -- "You are responsible". Probably the first time Willow has ever heard those words. At some point, WIllow needs to grow up and start taking responsibility for her actions -- a job would be a good place to start.

And, of course, the end of STSP, symbolized to me the relationship Willow has with Buffy -- Willow is the one taking and Buffy is the one giving of herself unselfishly.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I hope so. But I wish they'd tell us for sure. -- Miss Edith, 10:25:31 01/21/03 Tue

Still turning up at the minumum wage job Buffy was slaving away at, and helping yourself to free burgers on Buffy's paycheck is to me very inconsiderate, no matter how much Xander helped out around the house. I agree he was giving more then he took, it just struck me as very inconsiderate of him in DMP.

I cannot stand the scoobies attitude towards Buffy in Dead Mans Party either. When Willow is telling Buffy everything she has been through with having a first boyfriend and she needed Buffy around to discuss this with I can't believe we were meant to sympathise. Buffy had run away after having to kill her boyfriend after all. Slightly larger issue. And I am still shocked at the rudeness shown to Joyce who invited them over for a dinner party and they threw a wild party instead without even checking if it was okay with Buffy's mother. A disgraceful lack of manners and consideration. My mother would have refered to Willow as "that rude girl" for the rest of the time I had known her if I were in Buffy's place. But then if I were Buffy I would have walked stright back out of the house so I guess she's got a lot more patience than me.

And yes I noticed in Villians Willow telling Warren he must be punished because "You took her light away from me". When talking with Buffy she starts remembering how the only time she ever felt special was with Tara, and thinking of the impact Tara's loss had on her. I'm not sure if I would say Willow is more selfish and immature than Dawn though. Call it a tie.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Keep in mind -- Finn Mac Cool, 11:42:21 01/21/03 Tue

I think it's fair to say Willow, Xander, and everyone else would have behaved differently if they'd known Angel got his soul back just before Buffy killed him. They did understand it had to have been traumatic, but they had seen Buffy willing to kill Angelus before, so her skipping town didn't make much sense to them.

Also, while the belief that Willow and Tara never paid rent is valid, I think it's still likely they paid for food, at least the food they ate. After all, presumably they had been doing so all summer, so they have no reason to change, unless they were secretly dipping into Dawn's college fund during the summer.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Keep in mind -- Malandanza, 12:59:43 01/21/03 Tue

"Also, while the belief that Willow and Tara never paid rent is valid, I think it's still likely they paid for food, at least the food they ate. After all, presumably they had been doing so all summer, so they have no reason to change, unless they were secretly dipping into Dawn's college fund during the summer."

Not the college fund, but Joyce's life insurance money (left to Buffy) as Buffy explains to Giles here:

Buffy: Just, money stuff. Turns out Mom left me some and while I was dead? Got squandered on luxuries like food and clothing.
(Afterlife, Psyche)

So I'd say there was no reason to change after Buffy got back -- still raiding the refrigerator for snacks, still not contributing.

As for the Dead Man's Party issue, even not knowing that Angel had been restored (although Giles did suspect something) her friends acted badly. Buffy saying she's ready to kill Angel, her one and only love, is different from actually going through with it. The mere fact that Buffy did run away shows how traumatic the event was. Xander wanted Angel dead from the beginning, but Willow lived vicariously through the whole Angel/Buffy romance -- of all people, she should have been the most sympathetic to Buffy which is why her attitude, distant and judgmental, felt like more of a betrayal to Buffy than Xander's usual self-righteous indignation. Expelled from school, kicked out of her house, blaming herself for Jenny's death (because she didn't stop Angelus earlier and because she caused Angelus to come into being) -- probably Theresa's death as well, blaming herself for Angel's death, running away and spending the summer who knows where and surviving on her own -- these are sufficient grounds for sympathy by themselves -- without knowing that Angel was ensouled by Willow and the gang before Buffy killed him. Buffy is fortunate she had Giles because otherwise? her most sympathetic friend was Cordelia.

[> [> Maybe I've lived in the Midwest too long but... -- Shiraz, 08:34:58 01/17/03 Fri

Jumping into somebody else's bed and then unsubltly suggesting that they would be more comfortable (wink wink) if they joined you on it strikes me as a bit beyond "a little forward".

But I should state that I don't mind the concept of a Willow/Kennedy pairing, just the way it's being presented; kind of a "You two! Into bed, NOW!" sort of way.

This just makes Kennedy's character seem like even more of a Mary Sue. Because after all, what's the primary purpose of a Mary Sue character? Why to GET IT ON with one of the main characters!

Moreover, even without the sexual overtones of the scene, the sleeping arrangements highlight the fact that the rules are different for Kennedy. Dawn and Buffy have kept their private rooms, and Xander has claimed the sofa for his own, so if it's a case of 'guests get the bed', Willows the only one who's heard of the custom.

Finally, as to Kennedy's social ubpringing: no she doesn't have to be snobbish but she does have to act like she's been brought up upper class. If she was, the general lack of resources at the Summer's residence would come as a bit of a shock to her.

All this being said, I think Kennedy could be a good character, if the writers would just give her a few humanising flaws.

-Shiraz

[> [> [> Re: Maybe I've lived in the Midwest too long but... -- Dochawk, 10:37:16 01/17/03 Fri

Annabelle was going to sleep in Dawn's room and Willow had already volunteered her room. Kennedy clearly manipulated it to be in Willow's room, but so what? I don't think we have seen anywhere near enough of her character to make the kind of generalizations you have, but I am pretty sympathetic to her character. From the age of 8 she has been trained to be a slayer, she's good, it portends to be an exciting life, especailly for someone who comes from a family in a very protected environment (her family dynamics would be very interesting, not too many families from the New York upper class with houses in the Hamptons would allow their only daughter to be trained as a slayer, I wonder if her watcher convinced them to train her as a future "olympic athlete" and didn't tell them about the slayer part. And what happened to her watcher anyway? We know that Rona didn't have one and that Chloe's and Eve's were killed, but we didn't get that impression from Kennedy!) couldn't the SG use the help of an additional watcher????

[> [> [> [> Agree -- too early to make assumptions about Mary Sueness. -- yez, 14:30:06 01/17/03 Fri

I agree. Kennedy doesn't strike me as a Mary Sue, either -- at least based on what we know right now. Similar to what Dochawk said, she struck me as someone with innate leadership abilities and the confidence cultivated by a privileged background who has found herself in a very bad situation and responds by assessing what needs to be done and stepping up to it. She judges, correctly, that panic and infighting are dangerous, and that the best course in a very bad situation is to band together, use whatever skills are at each's disposal, and do something.

As far as why she performs better than the other SITs, along with the qualities above, I think she also has the advantage of being a little older than the others, if her comment about how she worries that she may be too old for gig can inform us. And I also think her comment about having been able to use a crossbow since she was 8 (or whatever), makes it seem likely that she's been in slayer prep training -- or has been getting *some* kind of self-defense/weapons training -- for several years. This would also seem to explain why she's not still in denial about being a potential slayer; she's further along the path of embracing her "sacred duty -- maybe she's a "good soldier," ready to do whatever she has to when she's called on, and willing to squelch her own emotions for the cause. Though, she certainly does have at least some of the healthy authority-questioning characteristics that have served Buffy so well, based on her sassy comments to Buffy about getting weapons (Buffy used to give Giles this kind of attitude all the time).

All that said, I'm not letting myself get too attached to her, even though I'm liking her now. You just never know.

If I found anything manufactured or unreal, it was Kennedy's flirting with Willow. Not that I found the flirting unbelievable (the girl's got some nerve, she does), but I found it hard to believe that Kennedy would have an immediate attraction to Willow. Willow's cute once you get to know her, but having to orchestrate bed-sharing the same night you've met her? I don't think so. Yet, I do agree with whoever said that they might be positioning Kennedy as someone who helps Willow get her confidence back. While Kennedy's doing it out of sheer ignorance of what Evil!Willow is like or how powerful she is, I really liked the "And what did evil taste like, Willow?" exchange where Kennedy calls Willow on taking herself too seriously. Someone's got to help her get to the next step.

As far as bed assignments go, I remember it like Dochawk. I think Kennedy's reasoning to take up Willow's volunteering of her bedroom made sense at the time. As far as her taking the bed, well, why not -- it's a big enough bed to share. Having a guest sleep on the sofa is very different from having them sleep on the floor. And I agree with others, I was raised to give up the best bed to the guests, too.

yez

[> [> [> [> [> Dammit, the writers have given us an attachement disorder..;) -- Rufus, 05:05:47 01/18/03 Sat

No longer can we expect a character to last beyond an episode or sex with any of the main characters...we have been forced to avoid any sort of attachement to these characters...I like Kennedy anyhow, even if she ends up a goner (no spoilers in the post so don't get excited).

[> [> [> [> [> [> Yes -- because of BtVS I now have 'trust issues.' :) -- yez, 10:24:33 01/18/03 Sat

[> [> [> [> [> [> LOL I read the header as Attachment to Disorder!! -- Angela, curious about the new Chaos Theory ;-), 13:21:39 01/20/03 Mon

[> [> [> [> [> Absolutely not a Mary Sue -- Cleanthes, 10:29:26 01/18/03 Sat

Were Kennedy a Mary Sue, she would already have had sex with Willow and maybe one or two others. Mary Sue's have many attributes, but absolutely chief among them is their irresistible sexual allure. Whatever other Mary Sueish qualities Kennedy possesses, she has failed in this regard.

[> [> [> [> Kennedy's Watcher is dead -- HonorH, 10:35:49 01/18/03 Sat

She said in BotN that her the Bringers "tore my Watcher apart." Think it's safe to say that Watcher is dead.

[> [> [> Re: Maybe I've lived in the Midwest too long but... -- diamond in the rough, 14:06:21 01/17/03 Fri

Jumping into somebody else's bed and then unsubltly suggesting that they would be more comfortable (wink wink) if they joined you on it strikes me as a bit beyond "a little forward".

All this being said, I think Kennedy could be a good character, if the writers would just give her a few humanising flaws.

You don't consider a penchant to be "a bit beyond a little forward" a humanizing flaw?

[> [> [> [> Oh! You've forgotten the acceptable list of Mary Sue flaws: -- Shiraz, 23:21:24 01/19/03 Sun

Oh, but Mary Sue's do have flaws, as their authors will tell you. They typically include:

1. A lack of respect for authority (which they are never called on).

2. She's fanatically devoted to her friends, to the point it becomes unhealth (last bit added to make it more flaw-like).

3. She feels responsible for (the tragic) events she had no control over. (guilt-free brooding!)

4. She's completely tactless in that very truthful way that causes the main characters to come to some very profound realizations (TM) about themselves and their loves.

And of course:

5. She is unusually sexually precocious (although the author's would say that's she's just misunderstood by a represive society).

Sorry, but any flaw that makes the character that much more cute and perky is NOT really a character flaw.

-Shiraz

[> [> [> [> [> I thought we were talking about Kennedy, not Buffy (or, What exactly is a Mary Sue?) -- yez, 12:03:08 01/21/03 Tue

Seriously, though, this caused me to do a little Googling to see if I really understood what a Mary Sue is, and it turns out I was missing some important information, according to the few sites I skimmed (Google search: "Mary Sue" character). Namely, that a Mary Sue is typically a "self-insertion" of a writer -- a new character that generally exists for wish-fulfillment for the writer, and may be the writer's fantasy person or fantasy version of him- or herself. Mary Sues are typically irresistable, and I guess the specific forms of irresistability would depend on what the writer finds irresistable, on the genre, etc.

To the extent that some of us are attracted to or fascinated by certain "dark" qualities or character flaws, I imagine you could argue that a Mary Sue could have all the "flaws" Shiraz lists (though, of course, most of the qualities listed aren't flaws from the audience's perspective -- they're ideal tragic qualities). But isn't that because, in the specific context of BtVS, those types of qualities have already been set up as part of the ideal? I mean, most of those really *can* be used to describe Buffy. I mean, what could be more Mary Sue than a prime-time superheroine, unless you give her these kinds of "flaws"? Or, in other words, make her more human.

Anyway, based on what I read (and admitedly, it wasn't reams), I would argue that if we're talking about Mary Sues on BtVS, Cassie and Sam (Riley's wife) come to mind as Mary Sues. But I would also argue that they were both written they way they were to serve a purpose, and their Mary Sueness may have been tongue-in-cheek, especially with Sam.

Kennedy may well turn out to be a Mary Sue if we don't ever get to see her grow -- she's presented as perfect (including being flawed in all the right ways) and just stays that way.

yez

[> [> [> [> [> [> She's only been in two episodes, which were in no way focused on her, so cut her some slack. -- Finn Mac Cool, 13:50:41 01/21/03 Tue

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I thought we were talking about Kennedy, not Buffy (or, What exactly is a Mary Sue?) -- Dochawk, 15:05:48 01/21/03 Tue

Yez, I always thought that your definition was the definition of a Mary Sue, but there was a long discussion in the archives (go to the archive search and type in Mary Sue) about this and the consensus seemed to be Shiraz position (but noone ever made a list of "exceptions" thats a new one for me). Seems to me that your definition makes much more sense in being of value in understanding a character, that Shiraz's (and others) can apply to virtually any character writers place in a program who are idealized (they are either lovable or hateful when they are inserted). My interpetation of all this is that the term Mary Sue has lost much of its original meaning. Anyone have any idea when and in what context it was first used?

[> [> [> OK, I haven't seen Showtime, only read the wildfeed, but. . . -- Finn Mac Cool, 11:12:52 01/18/03 Sat

From "Bring on the Night" I got the feeling that the writers could go either way with Kennedy. That she might be attracted to Willow, or attraction to Willow is so far from her mind that she doesn't grasp the sexual undertones of what she's saying. Perhaps actually seeing Showtime gives a different idea, but I think the second possibility is still that, a possibility.

[> [> [> [> Re: OK, I haven't seen Showtime, only read the wildfeed, but. . . -- Dochawk, 12:00:56 01/18/03 Sat

Flirtacious is the only way I could see the way Kennedy is acting towards Willow, especially the bedroom scene.

[> Sleeping arrangements chez Summers -- Vickie, 08:40:00 01/17/03 Fri

As Ty points out, Kennedy set up the sleeping arrangements when she, Annabelle, and Molly first arrived. She was interested in Willow, and clearly manipulated the arrangements to allow her opportunities to interact with Wil.

I've been trying to work out what has happened since. I think it's probably something like:

Kennedy and Willow in Willow's room. Willow on the floor, to keep a comfortable distance.

Buffy and Dawn doubled up in Dawn's room. Buffy's not sleeping much anyway.

Giles in Buffy's room. I don't know if he's really sleeping, but to keep up appearances.

Apparently guys don't double up. Xander's on the couch.

The remainder of the SITs, plus Anya, pajama party style on the living room floor. Unless each SIT is showing up with a sleeping bag, they've got to be making surplus store runs on a regular basis.

In any case, chez Summers is about ready to pop its seams. Probably indicates another run of dead SITs.

[> [> Re: Sleeping arrangements chez Summers -- Tyreseus, 11:02:17 01/17/03 Fri

Agree with your arrangement, except in Showtime, Anya and Giles appear to be coming from some other part of the house, so it doesn't seem Anya is sleeping with the SITs. Maybe she's in the room with Buffy/Dawn.

And now Spike is coming home and Andrew has been untied. Maybe they can take over the basement (I'm kinda starting to think basements are the appropriate place for boys in the buffyverse). Except the basement appears to be the SIT training room.

I think you're right about the Get Attacked by Evil Hotel - which takes in everyone, even when there is no vacancy, and relies on the occasional massacre to clean out the herd.

[> [> [> 'Get Attacked by Evil Hotel'--snicker! -- Vickie, 11:38:07 01/17/03 Fri

Great line!

One wonders, assuming that gathering the forces for good at a single spot is a good thing, why they don't find somewhere a little more fortifiable? Surely Angel's old mansion would be easier to defend? Surely Giles still has the WC corporate AMEX card?

[> [> [> [> This whole discussion reminds me... -- Tchaikovsky, 07:36:31 01/19/03 Sun

...of that great line that Buffy mutters when Angel rings at the end of 'Flooded':

'Who could be ringing? Everyone I know lives here.'

Seems more true than ever now.

TCH

[> [> [> [> [> LOL, virtually anyone! -- Celebaelin, 18:40:29 01/19/03 Sun

[> Sidenote: Kennedy's ethnicity -- more diversity? -- yez, 14:17:46 01/18/03 Sat

I know we don't really have any indication yet about what Kennedy's ethnicity is, but I just thought I'd put out there that I think the actress is a Latina.

She read as Latina to me when she first appeared, and since her name is Iyari Limon (also credited as Iyari Perez Limon among other variations per www.tvtome.com; but don't visit her page or the Buffy ep. pages unless you want spoilers -- I was totally caught offguard, dammit), I think it's a good guess that she is.

So if anybody's reading this that participated in the BtVS diversity count that was going last month or so, here's another to add to the list. Maybe -- does it counts if the actress is Latina but the character isn't or isn't necessarily?

yez

[> [> Re: Sidenote: Kennedy's ethnicity -- more diversity? -- Vickie, 15:02:22 01/18/03 Sat

I thought Chloe was a Latina, but never thought so about Kennedy.

[> [> [> Yeah, I agree about Chloe. -- yez, 16:57:41 01/18/03 Sat

To me, she read as Latina without question. (I'll trust that you're right with the name -- I haven't been able to keep up with any except Kennedy and Eve.)

I "researched" Kennedy's actress because when I mentioned to my girlfriend that it was nice to see more people "of color" and included Kennedy in the list, she said she didn't think Kennedy was Latina. So I thought I'd try to confirm.

The actress' ethnicity may be neither here nor there, though, if the *character's* ethnicity is never referenced. Kennedy is certainly not a traditional Hispanic name, but that doesn't prove anything. And traditionally in TV, Latino characters don't usually come from the upper-income strata. Not that that proves anything either.

I guess I'm just wondering whether it makes a difference to me if Kennedy's ethnicity is somehow confirmed as non-Hispanic, despite the actress' ethnicity. Like does that cancel out the diversity factor since the actress can apparently "pass" with most people. I don't know...

While it's definitely nice to see more diversity on the show, I have to say the sudden influx this season -- among speaking parts and extras -- has also been a little strange, as it seems so deliberate. But that's only because there seemed to be such a lack of diversity before.

yez

[> [> [> [> Re: ethnicity -- leslie, 19:11:50 01/18/03 Sat

Interestingly enough, after the reference to the Hamptons, I thought she might be Jewish, perhaps Sephardic, perhaps one of those motley New York semi-Jews who somehow end up with resolutely "non-ethnic" names like Kennedy or, oh, say, Leslie. I was about to say "not that my family ever had a house in the Hamptons" except I just remembered I have cousins who live there--but NOT in a house with anything remotely resembling wings!

[> [> [> [> [> Re: ethnicity -- Dochawk, 21:57:27 01/18/03 Sat

Funny I thought the same thing. She is of the right age where her Jewish parents could have named her in honor of the Kennedy family (she's 19 therefore born in 1982/3 - not alot of Kennedy worship back then though). Certainly a summer house in the Hamptons (which I originally thought referred to Hamptom Court England because how the hell did Giles find her if she was in New York!) is a Jewish backstory not a Hispanic one (I am sure there are some, but TV shows don't usually pick exceptional backstories without a purpose).

[> [> [> [> [> [> Coincidentally enough... -- yez, 09:17:05 01/19/03 Sun

... my mother, during her geneology phase, said that there were a lot of Jewish Spaniards (I believe the Sephardic term applies) among those who came over, but that they hid their religion -- I guess because of the Inquisition and lingering prejudice? -- and most ultimately adopted Catholicism. She said one way to tell which familes were descended from these Spaniards was that they used an "s" instead of "z" in their names, for example: Gonzales vs. Gonzalez, Peres vs. Perez, Lopes vs. Lopez, etc. Something like that...

She also claimed that the whole "hide your religion" trauma can still be noted among the ongoing traditon of Mexican American males being pretty stand-offish when it comes to going to mass, trusting the clergy, etc. I don't know... it's an interesting theory. I guess I need to get started on my geneology phase if I'm ever going to keep this stuff straight.

Sorry, off on a tangent... I'm not claiming that this has anything to do with Kennedy. Just a coincidental sidenote.

yez

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Morano Jews -- Dochawk, 14:58:09 01/19/03 Sun

Sephardic Jews are Jews who trace their ancestry to the Mediterranean Crescent - from Spain across Greece to Northern Africa, including the Middle Eastern countries. The Morono Jews were Jews from Spain who pretended to be Catholic, but practiced Judiasm in secret (Conversos on the other hand were those Jews who did convert to Catholocism). Marranos were one of the major focus of the Spanish Inquistiion and many Jews fled Spain/Portugal because of it. There is evidence that Christopher Columbus and most of his crew were Marranos. Course don't know anyhing about either the actress or the character (it would be kinda cool to have both characters in a relationship Jewish, doesn't happen much on tv).

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> marranos in new mexico -- anom, 19:03:40 01/19/03 Sun

There's a community in New Mexico descended from Marranos who came to America to escape the Inquisition. But it followed them, & for many years they still had to hide their Jewish identity--in fact, their existence was hard to verify because remaining hidden in effect became incorporated into their religion. National Public Radio did a feature on them maybe 10 years ago, called "The Hidden Jews of New Mexico." If you're interested, you might be able to find out something about it at npr.org or by Googling the title.

"She said one way to tell which familes were descended from these Spaniards was that they used an 's' instead of 'z' in their names, for example: Gonzales vs. Gonzalez, Peres vs. Perez, Lopes vs. Lopez, etc. Something like that..."

To some extent, yes, but it's not really a reliable indicator. For one thing, Portuguese names are also spelled that way. For another, spellings weren't standardized at the time Jews & Muslims were expelled from Spain, & names retain variant spellings longer than other words do (for example, you can find Vel�zquez families that spell their names w/2 z's, 2 s's [rarely], or 1 of each). So a name spelled w/an "s" can be a clue that a family might have Sephardic ancestry, but you'd have to check further.

And no need to apologize for the tangent--it's interesting!

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Thanks, Dochawk and Anom, plus a ?. -- yez, 20:40:19 01/19/03 Sun

Very interesting stuff. I do hope to find that NPR story somewhere. Thanks. I plan to pass the info along to my mother.

Question is regarding spelling of the word. Is it "marrano"? That's kind of disturbing, as it means pig in Spanish, but since you all used various spellings (no disrespect -- typos happen), I was hoping you all could clarify if you have a minute. Otherwise, my search tomorrow should answer the question.

I agree that having two young Jewish people in a relationship would be cool, but the "interracial" thing would be cool, too, and being Mexican American myself, I guess I am kind of rooting for Kennedy to be the same.

Though, hey, how about a wealthy, Jewish, lesbian Mexican American woman with a family house in the Hamptons? If that isn't a TV first, I don't know what is. :)

Well, I guess "Kennedy the (Wealthy, Jewish, Lesbian, Mexican American) Vampire Slayer" would certainly top that.

A girl can dream...

yez

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> it's marrano... -- anom, 22:52:41 01/19/03 Sun

...& yes, it's the same word that means "pig." The name was used to insult Jews, based on the Jewish concept that pigs are unclean (& I think this went beyond pork's not being kosher). (Anyone know if the same term was applied to Muslims on the same basis? I've never heard of this, but I'm sure some epithet was used for them.) One test of whether conversos were sincere was to challenge them to eat ham or bacon. Of course, another was to torture them.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> There's nothing quite as disturbing as what people will do for religion. -- yez, 07:20:20 01/20/03 Mon

Yet while religion has provoked some of the most unspeakable and ridiculous behaviors that the human animal is capable of, it's also provoked some of the most beautiful and joyous. What a conundrum.

Thanks, anom. I'd heard of people challenging each other to duels, but never to eating bacon. It's a weird, weird world we live in.

yez

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> There's also a terrific documentary -- ponygirl, 11:08:15 01/20/03 Mon

... called Expulsion and Memory. Probably hard to find but worth a look. Often the only clues to Jewish heritage were old family customs that were in fact Jewish traditions - like leaving rocks on gravestones, or lighting candles on Friday nights. Things that may have started out as small acts of defiance that managed to survive for generations. It's interesting stuff.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Cool, thanks. -- yez, 20:11:53 01/20/03 Mon

[> [> [> [> Re: Yeah, I agree about Chloe. -- Malandanza, 20:41:53 01/19/03 Sun

"To me, she read as Latina without question. "

I just thought I'd add a "me too" here -- although with a name like "Kennedy," it's probably safe to say she's not Cuban-American.

"And traditionally in TV, Latino characters don't usually come from the upper-income strata."

What about the possibilty that she was raised almost entirely by her watcher and he was the one with money? We saw that Kendra was taken from her parents and raised by her watcher from early childhood and we know Kennedy said she had been proficient with a crossbow since she was eight.

[> [> [> [> [> 'safe to say she's not Cuban-American.' :D Good point. -- yez, 07:23:39 01/20/03 Mon

And the theory about the Watcher's money is certainly plausible. Guess we'll just have to wait and hope that we find out what the "truth" is.

yez

[> [> [> [> [> & i agree about kennedy! -- anom, 09:30:09 01/20/03 Mon

"...with a name like 'Kennedy,' it's probably safe to say she's not Cuban-American."

Mal, when I 1st saw the subject line of your "Cuban Missile Crisis" post above, I thought that was gonna be a play on Kennedy's name!

Actually, now that I think about it, considering the anti-Castro views of most Cuban-Americans...maybe she is!

[> [> Re: Sidenote: Kennedy's ethnicity -- more diversity? -- Peggin, 13:07:38 01/20/03 Mon

I just did a quick Yahoo! search on Iyari Limon, and she has an unofficial fan site dedicated to her:

http://www.iyarilimon.com/

according to her biography, she was born in Mexico.

[> [> [> Good job, thanks. -- yez, 20:23:21 01/20/03 Mon

Never ocurred to me that there'd be more on her out there, for some reason.

I wonder if we'll ever find out about the whole Sephardic ancestry thing, though, since many families aren't even aware of it themselves... And what the writers do (or don't do) with the character's ethnicity, who knows?

yez

Where is Honorificus when you need her? (ANGEL 4.8 spoilers) -- cjl, invoking the All-Seeing Fashion God, 08:23:38 01/16/03 Thu

I know less about fashion than anyone on Earth, but even I could tell that Cordy's outfit (when she pops back to the hotel) was absolutely HIDEOUS. I know they're trying to cover up Charisma's bundle of joy, but the ME costume designer must have had the week off.

I think I almost preferred her semi-naked in bed with Connor. (If you know how I feel about the C/C "thing," you'll realize how much I hated that outfit.) When is our resdient demonic fashion maven going to show up and properly scorch the earth around the ANGEL wardrobe room?

[> Believe me, darling, I'd love to help. -- Honorificus (The All-Seeing Fashion Goddess), 09:41:32 01/16/03 Thu

Unfortunately, the thrice-bedamned WB doesn't air up here in Alaska, where my Foolish Alter-Ego has chosen to make her home. Thus, I must wait for tapes to be sent up to me in order to actually see the fashion atrocities inflicted upon Miss Carpenter and give them the full weight of my scorn.

[> [> Alas. But perhaps Fashion Vengeance is a dish best served cold. -- cjl, 10:52:05 01/16/03 Thu

[> Cordy's wardrobe -- Tess, 15:05:51 01/16/03 Thu

It was hideous. But I remember from being pregnant that they are all like that. Actually what Cordy wore woulda been a better choice.

Truthfully, the actress has changed so much over the last year that I have a hard time seeing her now and believing she's the same person that played Cordelia back in Season 1 of Buffy.

[> I thought it was pretty ... *hides head in shame* -- slain, 00:54:16 01/17/03 Fri

[> Don't worry, slain, I liked it, too! -- Flo, 05:40:03 01/17/03 Fri

Save the Wesley/Lilah Skin Olympics! (spoilers for HC) -- Spike Lover, 09:20:52 01/16/03 Thu

Obviously spoilers for last night's angel...

First of all, a plea to save the W/L pairing, which is the ONLY thing holding my interest.

But, I really liked the ep. The saving grace was Wesley's rescue. Course, anything with a bunch of dead lawyers is good. Also, found the whole white room thing interesting.
Also, enjoyed seeing the actress who plays Lilah get to do something besides fear and smugness.

Things I dislike, but continue to put up with:

1) Fred not being able to handle the fact she or Gunn or she and Gunn offed a professor who intended her destruction. Please, self-defense. Get over it.

2)Angel acting like the child/juvenile that he is.

3)Cordy without any backbone.

4)Wesley wanting to return to the good ole gang, when some continue to treat him badly... (Is Gunn still mad at Wesley or is he simply insecure about Fred.)

5)The Wesley/Lilah pairing mirroring the Buffy/Spike fiasco. (Will Lilah suddenly want to go in search for her soul that she has already sold to the senior partner?)

I have an idea: Why doesn't Cordy simply tell Angel that her 'new boyfriend' is lousy in the sack. And it probably runs in the family. Why does she not tell Angel that he has not been sexy since season 2 of BTVS.

Ok, now for a question... Is Lilah going to turn up pregnant? The camera did a very deliberate pan of a claw stabbing her in the abdomen. Was it some sort of impregnation? What will her spawn be? A zombie?

A comment: I think BTVS has always been kind of 'preachy'(for the benefit of younger viewers). (Envision the Brady Bunch.) You can't do A or B because it is 'wrong'. These are the consequences...

Angel has a more adult feel. The story is about adults (even Conner is a young adult), who do the wrong thing, and face the consequences, but lately I have felt a certain preachy-ness that I wish they would get over.

[> Re: Save the Wesley/Lilah Skin Olympics! (spoilers for HC) -- Spike Lover, 09:44:45 01/16/03 Thu

Also, why can't Cordy say something to Angel about his 'taste' in partners, like: Why doesn't he go back to that vampire skank, Darla. Oh, wait, she is already dusted.

[> [> Just how angry are you? (spoilers for HC) -- Robert, 11:17:07 01/16/03 Thu

>>> But, I really liked the ep.

Very good! Now that we know you liked the episode, you told us what you liked about it.

>>> The saving grace was Wesley's rescue. Course, anything with a bunch of dead lawyers is good. Also, found the whole white room thing interesting. Also, enjoyed seeing the actress who plays Lilah get to do something besides fear and smugness.

And then you dedicated the remainder of you post to crapping all over it, AtS, BtVS and those of us who enjoy these shows.

>>> 1) Fred not being able to handle the fact she or Gunn or she and Gunn offed a professor who intended her destruction. Please, self-defense. Get over it.

Get over it? Are you kidding? Self-defense might apply if Fred did the killing, but Gunn committed murder and she knew it and he knew it. He made the choice. He prefers to be a murderer than for Fred to be stained. Now he must live with the consequences. More importantly, this is not a single episode issue. It can be resolved and it will be resolved, but there must be a convincing process to acheiving such a resolution.

>>> 2)Angel acting like the child/juvenile that he is.

Not at all. Angel already evicted Conner, because of his betrayal. Now Cordelia has betrayed Angel. Yes, there were exigent circumstances. She thought the end of the world was nigh, and she had a powerful lust for Conner -- no doubt related to her trip to the higher plane. Regardless, Cordelia betrayed Angel by bedding his son. She is free to do that (assuming statutory rape considerations don't apply), but there will be real consequences -- one of which includes Angel's feeling of betrayal.

I believe that the powers-that-be have been manipulating Cordelia (and possibly also Conner) to ensure that she does not sleep with Angel -- maybe to prevent the re-emergance of Angelus.

>>> 3)Cordy without any backbone.

True, but still unkind. There should be some space here for compassion. Circumstances these past six and a half years have served to liquify the backbone she used to have. I will enjoy seeing what emerges.

>>> (Is Gunn still mad at Wesley or is he simply insecure about Fred.)

Was Gunn insecure about Fred before Wesley betrayed the group? If so I didn't notice it. I conclude that he is not likely to be insecure about Fred now. On the other hand, Gunn is probably still mad at Wesley for his act of double betrayal.

Recall that Wesley severely chastised Gunn in the episode That Old Gang of Mine, for not being forthright and honest with Wesley. In Sleep Tight, Wesley was not forthright and honest with the group, and he stoled Angel's son. There is plenty here to be angry about. If Gunn is less forgiving than the others, then he may feel the sting of betrayal a little sharper. Recall that Gunn saved Wesley's life in A Thin Dead Line.

>>> 5)The Wesley/Lilah pairing mirroring the Buffy/Spike fiasco. (Will Lilah suddenly want to go in search for her soul that she has already sold to the senior partner?)

What do you consider a fiasco? Is it Buffy and Spike's relationship or Mutant Enemy's treatment of it? If it is the latter, then I take extreme exception to your comment and I would consider it a cheap shot. I (and a select few others) enjoyed and appreciated season six of BtVS. I liked the story which Mutant Enemy told us and I liked how it was told. I liked the deep dark places that we were taken.

If you think the relationship was a fiasco, then I disagree here also. The hateful relationship was unhealthy and it had to go, but I believe we are seeing a new and wonderful relationship arise out of the ashes of the former.

>>> I have an idea: Why doesn't Cordy simply tell Angel that her 'new boyfriend' is lousy in the sack. And it probably runs in the family. Why does she not tell Angel that he has not been sexy since season 2 of BTVS.

Maybe because that would be another unhelpful cheap shot. Is this how you communicate with your friends and family?

>>> Is Lilah going to turn up pregnant? The camera did a very deliberate pan of a claw stabbing her in the abdomen. Was it some sort of impregnation? What will her spawn be? A zombie?

Good questions ... unless you are still being sarcastic!

>>> A comment: I think BTVS has always been kind of 'preachy'(for the benefit of younger viewers). (Envision the Brady Bunch.) You can't do A or B because it is 'wrong'. These are the consequences...

Consequences are a real part of life. I don't see how an epic myth like BtVS could be told without some acknowledgement of consequences. More importantly, I don't see how you can mention BtVS and The Brady Bunch in the same paragraph. Every episode of The Brady Bunch was a morality lesson. The episodic stories served the lessons and the characters served the stories. If you believe that these two shows are alike, then I suggest you need to go back and re-watch a few episodes of The Brady Bunch. I think you'll see that any issue (no matter how small or large) will be resolved in one episode or less.

>>> Angel has a more adult feel. The story is about adults (even Conner is a young adult), who do the wrong thing, and face the consequences, but lately I have felt a certain preachy-ness that I wish they would get over.

It is okay to uncomfortable about any "preachy-ness" that appears, but if you are going to complain about it, then I request that you give details about the preaching that you think is happening.

>>> Also, why can't Cordy say something to Angel about his 'taste' in partners, like: Why doesn't he go back to that vampire skank, Darla. Oh, wait, she is already dusted.

Good point! If Angel had kept it in his drawers, then Conner wouldn't be here now and (most likely) the apocalyptic events probably wouldn't be happening. That wasn't his betrayal. Angel's betrayal was is lying about it to the group afterwards, and he should be called on it. He already was called on it once, and expect we will hear about it again.

[> [> [> Sorry if this ends up being a double, I couldn't find my original try -- JM, 13:31:40 01/16/03 Thu

I'm in the camp that thinks that Charles is being the more immature (or at least less controlled) of the two, but not by a whole lot; Wes has been doing his share of deliberately needless needling.

I'm willing to cut Gunn a little slack on this one, though. He probably has no idea what happened last night. With the cut on the head, he was probably pretty woozy, and not very aware of the being dragged out of danger. By the time Wes collapses against the wall, practically cradling Gunn while he watches the firestorm, Gunn seems completely unconscious. Not going to remember that part. And I'm quite certain that the minute Gunn started waking up, Wes dumped him and pretended he hadn't been anywhere near that attentive. Gunn probably tried to awkwardly thank him for dragging him to safety, Wes responded rudely and coldly, and the two of them spent the remainder of the night alternately brooding and sulking.

Wes has shown us, the audience, through his actions, e.g., the gentle way he handled Angel when he retrieved him in DD, attending Fred's lecture, immediately going to protect Gunn, rescuing Lilah from W&H, that he cares deeply. But he absolutely refuses to verbally communicate anything other than coldness, hostility, and a kind of rude arrogance. He cares for them all a great deal, but would rather die than let them know that. (I'm going with passive-aggressive, control freak on this one.) So the rest of them just have to guess at what's going on when his words belie his actions. And it's not like he's really lain much of a groundwork of trust.

I think that Angel knows he owes his current non-hungry and wet state to a man he tried to murder. So I think he realizes that Wes's motivations are on the complex side. And since Angel needs his help, and I think honestly desires some kind of reconciliation, he's giving him the benefit of the doubt. Angel is also in a position to extend this graciousness since he was the most severely hurt by Wes.

Gunn initially defended Wesley to Angel and attempted to protect him. In some part of his mind he probably thinks that Wes owes him on that count. At that point I think he would have been willing to work through to a reconciliation with Wes, eventually extending him forgiveness if he could find a way to do it without being disloyal to Angel. But it turns out that scenario isn't ever going to get to play out, because Wes thinks that he is the one of them owed an apology. Which I'm sure leaves Gunn shocked, disgusted, and defensive. Then any chance that might have presented itself this summer was snuffed out when Wes not only rebuffed their requests, but later turned out to be lying to them, and then casually turned his back on his last, best chance to reconcile. Both Gunn and Fred looked pretty shocked when Wes dumped Angel and turned heel. They thought he was coming home, making amends, not doing them some kind of favor that they should be grateful for.

So at this point Gunn's gone from being disappointed in Wes to uncomfortable and seriously irritated, to really not liking or trusting him at all. And then "Supersymmetry" happened. All Gunn knows is that Wes is someone who wants his girl, exacerbates the intellectually insecurity he already feels, and helped Fred to do something he, Gunn, didn't approve. Something which ultimately resulted in a dark deed he's carrying on his conscience and which may shoal his relationship. I'm certain that some of Gunn's hostility is not just because he feels threatened (and still also betrayed) but also because he's trying to project the blame for the Professor's death onto Wes. Because he won't blame Fred, he doesn't want to blame himself, and if not for Wes's help it never would have happened. Or at least that's what he tells himself.

Frankly, I think these two guys need to have it out. Stop sniping and just have an all out brawl, clear the darn air. Yeah Gunn'd likely win, but Wes would get in more than a few good punches. I think it would be therapeutic.

[> [> [> [> Re: Sorry if this ends up being a double, I couldn't find my original try -- Dochawk, 14:02:19 01/16/03 Thu

Ummmm. Am I the only one who thinks that Gunn is just projecting his frustration with Fred onto Wes because he also represents a rival for Fred? Remember Wes took Fred to the Prof's office in the first place, and Gunn had to resent that. And now Fred has become distant and is seperating from him, so his natural reaction is frustration and pain and since he won't display it to Fred (for fear of driving her further away) he is taking it out on the most available (and applicable) target.

[> [> [> [> [> Nope not the only one -- shadowkat, 14:41:49 01/16/03 Thu

Am I the only one who thinks that Gunn is just projecting his frustration with Fred onto Wes because he also represents a rival for Fred? Remember Wes took Fred to the Prof's office in the first place, and Gunn had to resent that. And now Fred has become distant and is seperating from him, so his natural reaction is frustration and pain and since he won't display it to Fred (for fear of driving her further away) he is taking it out on the most available (and applicable) target.

Would agree. Gunn has been acting negatively towards Wes ever since he noticed Wes could be a rival. And it got worse after Spin the Bottle when it was revealed to Gunn that Fred had gone to Wes for help with Siedle. Gunn and Fred are having problems. In Apocalypse Nowish - she leaves him and goes to a Diner. He has no idea where she is when Wes shows up and they agree to work together to fight the Beast. Even before that in Supersymmetry - Gunn was struggling because he didn't understand any of the string theory - Wes not only understood it - he discovered she was doing the lecture without being told - he read her article. Gunn could barely stay awake during her practice speech.
Gunn would have to be a robot not to be aware of the chemistry between Wes and Fred or for that matter the commonality of interest. He may also believe that part of what keeps Fred with him is Wes is outside the group and Wes' betrayal. Also if Wes could betray Angel with Connor, what keeps him from going after Fred?? Gunn doesn't trust him not to take Fred away from romantically and is understandably threatened by it. He'd have to be dead not to be. This doesn't mean he doesn't like Wes, i even get the impression the two miss their prior friendship, but like any two people who are competing for the love of the same woman - there's going to be lots of friction. The fact Wes betrayed them last year - only intensifies it. But keep in mind - Gunn went to Wes to save Fred last year and Wes saved Gunn in Apocalypse Nowish, and both agreed to keep the other from living life as a zombie. This is important I think.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Nope not the only one -- Dochawk, 16:06:14 01/16/03 Thu

Does Gunn know about Lilah? I don't think so, but I don't remember and if so, it is another reason for Gunn to distrust him. And for better or worse (perhaps better on these shows) Gunn seems unable to bury his emotions.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Nope not the only one -- JM, 17:51:16 01/16/03 Thu

Gunn's not really a supressor. He liked Fred, he moved on her. He has problems with Angel/Lorne/whoever, he gets in their face. Staying with his gang was making his grief over Alonna more painful, he bailed. Which is probably making the whole Seidel thing more painful.

I'm pretty sure the only one who knows about L/W is Angel. Gunn can't figure out where Wes is getting his inside W&H info, like in SlTB, and since he already doesn't trust him . . .

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Nope not the only one -- shadowkat, 08:46:16 01/17/03 Fri

Gunn's not really a supressor. He liked Fred, he moved on her. He has problems with Angel/Lorne/whoever, he gets in their face. Staying with his gang was making his grief over Alonna more painful, he bailed. Which is probably making the whole Seidel thing more painful.

I'm pretty sure the only one who knows about L/W is Angel. Gunn can't figure out where Wes is getting his inside W&H info, like in SlTB, and since he already doesn't trust him . . .

I think this is true. (On both shows there are characters who aren't suppressers and actually vent and like in real life - suppressers/non-venters truly don't understand venters. Vice versa. A good portion of the interpersonal conflict on both shows arises from this.) Up until the last two years - Cordelia was NOT a suppresser - she tended to tell you whatever she was thinking. Now...she suppresses.
In fact everyone but Gunn on this show suppresses.

Gunn is confused. He's catching all these vibes from people.
He's also keeping a secret about Seidel from Angel and the others. No one but Gunn and Fred know that Gunn killed Seidel. (Well maybe Lorne knows...)Also no one but Angel and Wes know about Lilah really...unless Gunn picked up on it in Supersymmetry. And no one but Angel, Cordy and Connor know about Cordy and Connor right now. There's lots of little secrets going on here. Hmmm maybe the zombies in Habeas Corpus were metaphorically used in the same way as they were used in Dead Man's party??

[> [> [> [> Re: Sorry if this ends up being a double, I couldn't find my original try -- Tess, 14:50:22 01/16/03 Thu

""Frankly, I think these two guys need to have it out. Stop sniping and just have an all out brawl, clear the darn air. Yeah Gunn'd likely win, but Wes would get in more than a few good punches. I think it would be therapeutic.""

Hmmm, my bet would be on Wes...if it was a true free for all, anything goes.

As far as where Gunn's anomisity stems from, I would say C: All of the above. It started when they both fell for the same woman, intensified with Wes' betrayal of Angel, and is fueled now by Gunn's insecurity in his relationship with Fred.

[> [> [> Poor poor Angel -- Celebaelin, 17:17:40 01/16/03 Thu

It seems to me that Cordelia *might* be deliberately ensuring that Angel can never have a moment of true (perfect) happiness again. If this means he can (un)live a more usual (un)life then so much the better.

[> [> [> Back Off -- Spike Lover, 12:01:02 01/17/03 Fri

I am sick to death of posters making personal rips at me for an opinion that they do not agree with.

Fine, you see everything different. Ok. But just because we do not agree does not mean you should rip me to pieces.

[> [> [> [> Re: Back Off -- Robert, 13:43:41 01/17/03 Fri

>>> I am sick to death of posters making personal rips at me for an opinion that they do not agree with.

I was not aware that any other posters had a difficulty with your postings, and my reply to your message was not motivated by anything anyone else might have said or done. I do not have a problem with your opinions, rather with your writing. I may disagree with others on this board, but their postings do not grate upon me as yours did. I found your posting to be harsh and sarcastic, to the point of insolency.

[> I saw it as a Faith parallel (spoilers for HC) -- Scroll, 09:59:05 01/16/03 Thu

I'll admit the similarities are a little vague, the situation wasn't a deliberate parallel... But I saw Lilah's gut wound as echoing Faith's in "Graduation 1" followed by a deliberate fall/jump from a great height. Of course, the Beast isn't anything like Buffy, the reasons for the gut wound are very different, but for some reason (maybe because I have future casting spoiler in mind) I saw a little Faith in Lilah (no pun intended).

OTOH, I think Lilah turning up pregnant would really be a great way to draw parallels between Wes/Lilah/baby and Angel/Darla/Connor. Of course, this plot could also have the drawback of being too obvious a parallel. And we've never have any sense that Lilah is important in the cosmic sense: she's powerful in W&H but still a lackey, unlike Angel who has prophecies and the PTB watching out for him. Still, I trust Joss to make things really interesting.

I agree with Angel being less preachy. Here are some things I didn't like, but will put up with:

1) Cordelia as a whole. Please, please! We need a really good explanation for her entire lack of judgement and backbone!

2) Gunn's bitching. He's being annoying but at least I know the writers are going somewhere with this.

3) Angel/Cordelia/Connor triangle. While I don't mind the Cordy/Connor sex in and of itself, I hate what it means in terms of affecting the overall plot. Angel and Connor need to start healing their relationship; the Cordelia monkey-wrench is unnecessary, and kind of contrived.

Things I do like: Wesley. Lilah. Wesley with a grenade. Lilah emotionally vulnerable. Lorne and his martini double-take. Angel snarky. Connor baiting Angel: "Like you!" Gunn and Wesley's pact to kill each other. The White Room. Also, Wesley.

[> [> Re: I saw it as a Faith parallel (spoilers for HC) -- ponygirl, 10:32:35 01/16/03 Thu

Hmm... Lilah's wound seemed to me to echo Spike's getting stabbed by Glory's finger in Intervention. The parallel to Intervention could signal a more upward path for Lilah, suggesting that telling Wes about Connor was an attempt to do the right thing, or it could stand as a contrast, after all Lilah was doing her job up until the end.

[> [> [> Okay, that works too (spoilers for 4.8) -- Scroll, 10:45:19 01/16/03 Thu

You have a good point re: Glory's finger in Spike. So maybe this bodes well for Lilah redemption... Darn. I'm kinda hoping not! But this ep was very likely a turning point for Lilah. Her institution has been defeated, perhaps even totally destroyed; Wesley proved he cared for her; she nearly admits she loves him, and she does freely give him information about Connor. Spike and Faith both changed drastically after their "gut wounds", though Faith took a coma and an Angel-beating as well to learn her lesson; both began to be integrated into the Scooby/Fang Gangs. Maybe Lilah will too?

I don't want Lilah to lose her edge, but a few more glimpses of vulnerability are quite welcome. And I wouldn't mind to see Lilah interacting with the Fang Gang for a while, even if (or perhaps especially if) it's only a temporary truce. I want to see Angel/Lilah snark-age, with Wes watching them go at it, kind of amused and kind of wary.

[> [> [> [> Re: Okay, that works too (spoilers for 4.8) -- anneth, 10:54:48 01/16/03 Thu

Actually, Lilah's stabbing most strongly reminded me of Cordelia's impailing in Lover's Walk. It could signal that she's going to become a lot more (superficially) evil and destructive, much as Cordelia did upon learning of Xander's and Willow's relationship. The fact that Lilah got all mushy and nearly gave a gooey "I love you" speech to Wesley (that's what it looked like in that moment before she told him about Connor - kudos to the actress!) could be a big fat red herring.

[> [> [> [> Well, I am kind of wary of that -- Spike Lover, 10:58:48 01/16/03 Thu

Lilah has always been attracted to Angel. She would probably cheat on Wesley if given the chance. She would really love it if W caught them in the act.

My favorite line in the ep was... "I left you a hundred messages, but don't feel you have to return any of them."

Lilah prefers to be treated like a tramp, which is what makes it so fun.

[> Re: Save the Wesley/Lilah Skin Olympics! (spoilers for HC) -- 110v3w1110w, 13:45:45 01/17/03 Fri

i like the wesley/Lilah relationship and i hope lilah is the next victim to the redeeming power of love that so far has saved lindsey, spike, angel, darla and willow. as for gunn i think he is insecure as nothing really happened between him and wesley to cause a rift aside from what he did with conner and if angel can let that go then gunn should not have a problem with it.

[> Re: Save the Wesley/Lilah Skin Olympics! (spoilers for HC) -- Malandanza, 20:26:00 01/17/03 Fri

"1) Fred not being able to handle the fact she or Gunn or she and Gunn offed a professor who intended her destruction. Please, self-defense. Get over it."

I like the fact that the murder has created a gulf between Gunn and Fred -- kind of like the Macbeth and Lady Macbeth after the murder of King Duncan. Macbeth and his wife did have a close relationship, complete with pet names and the murder resulted in isolation from each other. It also reminds me of Orestes and Electra from Sartre's play, The Flies, where Orestes kills in part for Electra's sake but ends up estranged from her due to the very deed he thought would set her free.

[> [> 'They're free; and human life begins on the far side of despair.' Sartre -- Rufus, 03:59:25 01/18/03 Sat

It also reminds me of Orestes and Electra from Sartre's play, The Flies, where Orestes kills in part for Electra's sake but ends up estranged from her due to the very deed he thought would set her free.

Fred and Gunn have a relationship that I feel too many people dismiss....they have a storyline this year that has been well worth watching. Look at the two...Gunn brought up on the streets, used to meting out justice using his own rules of right and wrong....very much like Sartre being in the underground during WW2. Fred is one who lives in the mind, sometimes making up intricate fantasies to help her cope with stress. When the Professor re-entered Fred's life she saw it as an opportunity to live as she had in the past with all her academic potential. But the Professor was only back to finish a job he thought long over...he living under a differenct concept of right and wrong based upon personal gain. Finding out that this man she trusted so much had tried to kill her, Fred started a new fantasy, one centered around revenge. She knew he had killed in the past and I'm sure part of her vengeance was based upon wanting to stop the man, but her real motive was personal vengeance, much like striking out at Connor when she saw he had lied to her. But striking someone and killing them are two different things. Gunn understood Fred in a way that I think even Wes missed or was too blinded by want and desire to see. Gunn knew that Fred had a definite idea of right and wrong and couldn't live with killing someone....so he did it for her. Who cares that Angel and Gunn were already prepared to visit the Professor, Gunn knew that Fred was going to do the job herself and wanted to save her from herself.

The sad thing is that in killing the Professor, Gunn popped the bubble of the fantasy hero that Fred saw him as, he was now someone who was capable of doing what she dreamed about. Fred can't live with this knowledge that Gunn did what he did to save her....enough that she found it hard to look at or touch him. Gunn, seems quite fine with the killing because in his mind he was ridding the world of a murderer who wouldn't have been contained by the justice system as we know it. It's Fred who can't live with that guilt, guilt of knowing it's her need for vengeance that has ruined how she see's Gunn. Both have to relook at why they are together, and if they can live with each other. They used the freedom of choice to kill, can they use that freedom to deal with that choice?

[> [> [> Fred and Gunn Spoilers on episodes already aired in US -- Arethusa, 05:53:06 01/18/03 Sat

I think Fred can get over it, but she'll be a different person afterwards. She can't live in a fantasy world forever. Remember how she reacted to Angel-"Hansome man on a horse saved me."-and how later she developed a more realistic attitude towards him and gave up the fantasy. I'm very encouraged by the way whe ran into Gunn's arms after the battle with the Beast. She's able to accept responsibility for her actions-"We killed Professor Seidel."-and I think she'll learn to live with the consequences of her actions without it tearing her apart. Fred is becoming a very interesting character as she is grayed up with the others at AI.

[> [> [> [> Re: Fred and Gunn Spoilers on episodes already aired in US -- JM, 07:55:56 01/18/03 Sat

I'm starting to think they have a chance too. HC shows that he's still the most important thing in her life. I'm not so sure anymore that she's disappointed in him. Her "Sorry" in AN is starting to sound to me like, not "I'm sorry, I can't be around you," but "I'm sorry for what I did, what I triggered." Even if she thinks he infringed on her autonomy, I think she realizes that their complicated connection had unintended consequences that she must take responsibility for. Remember, her estrangement from her parents turned out to be about boundaries in her head, not resentment towards them. And she was stronger once she had accommadated the dissonance. Maybe they'll be able to find a resolution. After which a falling piano will kill them, because that's how things work in the Jossverse.

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