January 2003 posts
Spoilery
questions about Connections. -- Rufus, 02:17:30 01/03/03
Fri
I've thrown together a few quotes from either Psyche's transcripts
or a Shooting Script. Remember it's all connected.........
From Buffy 6.20 Two to Go
ANYA: (annoyed) Warren shot Buffy. Warren shot Tara. Buffy's alive.
Tara's dead. Willow found out, and being the most powerful Wicca
in the western hemisphere, decided to get the payback.
With interest.
***********************************
From Buffy 6.22 Grave
GILES: The Council haven't a clue. About much of anything, really.
(walking toward Buffy, leaning on the horse) No, there's an ...
an extremely powerful coven in Devon. They sensed the rise of
a dangerous magical force here in Sunnydale. A dark force, fueled
by grief.
BUFFY: Willow.
GILES: I'd so hoped it wasn't her. (pauses) And then a seer in
the coven told me about Tara. That's when the coven ... imbued
me with their powers.
ANYA: Oh. (getting it) You dosed her.
GILES: Yes.
ANYA: You knew she'd going to take your powers all along.
GILES: The gift I was given by the coven was the true essence
of magic. Willow's magic came from a ... place of rage and
power.
ANYA: And vengeance. Don't forget vengeance.
GILES: Oh. How could I? In any case, the magic she took from me
tapped into ... the spark of humanity she had left. Helped her
to feel again. Gave Xander the opportunity to ... reach her.
ANYA: Xander?
GILES: Yes. It was he who got to her in time. (smiling) He saved
us all.
***************************************
From Buffy 7.1 Lessons
Shot of the grassy ground where Willow is looking. A green stem
appears out of the ground, rises up and blooms into a pink flower.
Willow watches calmly.
GILES: That doesn't belong there.
WILLOW: No, it doesn't.
GILES: That's the flora kua ulaya. Native of Paraguay if my botany
serves.
WILLOW: (smiles) Is there anything you don't know everything about?
GILES: Synchronized swimming. Complete mystery to me.
Giles climbs the last bit and crouches beside Willow, both looking
at the flower.
GILES: Yep, Paraguay. Where's it come from?
WILLOW: Paraguay.
GILES: You brought it through the earth.
WILLOW: It's all connected. The root system, the molecules
... the energy ... everything's connected.
GILES: You sound like Miss Harkness.
WILLOW: (smiles) She's taught me a lot.
GILES: Then why aren't you in your lesson?
WILLOW: (stops smiling) Sorry.
GILES: It's all right. I think she was just-
WILLOW: Afraid. (Giles looking concerned) Yeah. They all are.
The coven is ... they're the most amazing women I've ever met.
But there's this, this look that they get. Like I'm gonna turn
them all into bangers and mash, or something. (Giles smiling)
Which I'm not even really sure what that is.
GILES: They're cautious. I trust you understand that.
WILLOW: I don't have that much power, I don't think.
GILES: Everything is connected. You're connected to a great
power, whether you feel it or not.
WILLOW: Well, you should just take it from me.
Willow gets up. The flower closes up and sinks back into the ground.
GILES: You know we can't.
Willow walks away from the tree with Giles following.
GILES: This isn't a, a hobby or an addiction. It's inside you
now, this magic. You're responsible for it.
Giles catches up with Willow and they walk side-by-side.
WILLOW: Will they always be afraid of me?
GILES: Maybe. Can you handle it?
WILLOW: I deserve a lot worse. (they stop walking) I killed people,
Giles.
GILES: I've not forgotten.
WILLOW: When you brought me here, I thought it was to kill me.
Or to lock me in some mystical dungeon for all eternity, or ...
with the torture. (frowns) Instead, you ... go all Dumbledore
on me. (Giles smiling a little) I'm learning about magic, all
about energy and Gaia and root systems...
GILES: Do you want to be punished?
WILLOW: (softly) I wanna be Willow.
GILES: You are. In the end, we all are who we are ... no matter
how much we may appear to have changed.
**********************************
Shooting Script for Buffy 7.10 "Bring on the Night"
There is AN EXPLOSION from the area where the spell is being done.
It sends ANYA flying. WIND FILLS THE ROOM and things SCATTER EVERYWHERE.
CLOSE ON WILLOW
Who holds onto the table as the smoke from the spell TWISTS INTO
HER NOSTRILS. Will rears back and SCREAMS as her EYES AND HAIR
GO BLACK. She EXHALES and the GIANT FORM OF THE FIRST, in it's
true appearance (the form it took in AMENDS) emerges from her
mouth. Then immediately gets sucked back.
BUFFY (cont'd)
Will!
Willow whips around and BLASTS BUFFY ACROSS THE ROOM with MAGIC.
Speaks in a demonic voice (the voice of The First.}
WILLOW/ FIRST
You only make me stronger.
CRASH! Xander, unnoticed by Willow/First, has snatched the bowl
that held the spell ingredients and SMASHED IT against the wall.
Just as suddenly as everything started - it all GOES BACK TO NORMAL.
Will's eyes and hair - everything.
******************************
It started with a little comment from Anya in Two to Go.....I've
never forgotten it. If Willow is the most powerful Wicca in the
Western hemisphere then who is the other most powerful Wicca?
What is it about Xanders normality that seems to have a magic
of it's own?
I'd be remembering everything that Willow says about it all being
connected....that means good/evil.
Does Giles belong in the here and now?
The last....."YOU only make ME stronger"....that goes
back to Willows insecurity and how she gets her magic to work
in the most powerful way....and that is rage....can she reverse
that, meaning how can she make IT weak?
[> The above contains spoilers
up to Bring on the Night -- Rufus, 02:18:35 01/03/03 Fri
[> Re: Spoilery questions
about Connections. -- slain, 09:30:27 01/03/03 Fri
Xander's normality strikes me as being relevant to connexions;
or, rather the connexions he doesn't have. He isn't connected
to any kind of magical force, as far as we know, in the way that
Willow is connected to the demon dimensions (where she got her
evil magic from, in part), Buffy and presumably Dawn (and Joyce?)
are connected to the Slayer lineage of power, Spike is/was connected
to the great vampire evil, Anya is connected to the demon realms
and Giles is connected to the way of Watchers and the occult.
Xander isn't connecty in this way; he doesn't really see the occult
world, but rather he's concerned with the physical, tangible world
- hence his occupation, bashing things against wood. However I
think his lack of connexion with this world emphasises his connexion
with the other big force - humanity. When his own problems aren't
getting in the way, Xander's role is often to see the human dimension,
to empathise with other humans; which is probably why he's not
always that good at seeing the demon perspective (Anya being the
exception, but she has a soul), and seeing beyond humanity. Xander
is the Heart of the group, and seeing as the soul was thought
to reside there, I think it's not unjust to think of him as the
Soul of the Scoobies, its essential connectedness with humanity,
and all of its strengths and frailties.
And this only makes M.E. stronger, you know. ;)
[> [> Re: Spoilery questions
about Connections. -- gds, 17:11:38 01/03/03 Fri
As I said a couple of years ago Xander is Buffy's secret weapon.
He is the "X" factor, that unexpected thing which messes
up best laid plans. He either comes up with an unexpected observation
(e.g. that the 3 demons are the 3 sacrifices), or is at the right
place at the right time (e.g. the high school kitchen when poison
is being used there). He is underestimated even by his friends,
and the enemies totally overlook him.
[> Re: Spoilery questions
about Connections. -- luvthistle1, 04:00:14 01/04/03 Sat
...maybe Amy. where did she go? or The Ripper". he seem s
like he was pretty powerful , when Ethan was talking about Giles's
Ripper days in "a new man" he said Giles knew very did
very powerful magic.
Sports Teams/Coaches/Winning
Losing and Buffy season 7 -- neaux, 06:39:29 01/03/03 Fri
Well at morning break everyday at work, I go into the break room
and watch ESPN's sportscenter for 15 minutes.
This past week due to College bowls and NFL seasons ending, there
have been a lot of firing and hiring of coaches for the upcoming
year. You hear terms such as "rebuilding" "recruits"
and dammit if that didnt make me think of Buffy this year.
Is season 7 a "rebuilding" year for Buffy? I would say
yes. Why is Xander always rebuilding the house? I believe this
is acting as a metophor for the "rebuilding" year of
the Scoobie team. We already had 3 new recruits to the team and
1 didnt (or did) make the first round cuts (depending on which
pun you like).
You have Andrew and Spike sidelined for now. If Spike gets off
the injured list, he could make a powerful hit for the scoobie
team. Andrew is physically tied down do to his actions on the
court. The team tied him up because he was poorly coached. Well
he was manipulated by the Big Bad.. but that doesnt mean that
Andrew wont be back in the second half for the scoobie team.
As with most "rebuilding" seasons, it has started as
a losing year for the scoobie team. The team's coach (Giles) had
presumably lost his head for most of the season and only now does
it look like he's having it reattached. But if the coach gets
his head on right and lets assume he passes the torch to Buffy
(the star player) to lead the team as seems evident in bring on
the night. Where will this all go??
well I do think this is a rebuilding year and with rebuilding
years its going to end badly. Not horribly, it wont be a winning
season. But the strengths and weaknesses will be evident by the
end of the year and NEXT Year's team will be quite powerful.
so this is my speculation that the scoobies will lose the BIG
GAME this year but it wont be devistating. By the end of the year
they will have shaped up their team for the next go-round. There
will be quite a few new faces and some of the seniors will leave
the team to retire and others for more money. And as we all know
now, Players and teams can be divided by CONTRACTS.
so what do you all think? I really want to hear from you guys
about this.
[> btw i think this is the
most insightful thing I've ever written. -- neaux (who took
one for the team), 06:40:59 01/03/03 Fri
[> Re: Sports Teams/Coaches/Winning
Losing and Buffy season 7 -- LittleBit (goes for the sports
analogy, what the hey), 09:18:53 01/03/03 Fri
Interesting slant on the season. One thing we do know ... the
Head Coach [pun intended on both levels] won't be replaced because
there's no one left to replace him within the league and we all
know they can't go outside the UPN league to recruit.
The star player will be having a difficult year, facing the strongest
oppostition the team has seen while at the same time being recruited
and distracted by the pros. Can she keep her focus and go out
at the head of a winning season? It remains to be seen.
We are seeing an unusual influx of freshman players, presumably
from some of the best coaches available. Whether or not their
training was enough, and they can adapt to the type of offense
and defense the Scooby Gang uses still remains to be seen. As
we all know, they follow a very different game plan.
The veterans on the team seem to be having a few difficulties
as well --- Willow being afraid to fully urilize her abilities
because of the possibility of an interception will be forcing
the team to go to a ground game and Buffy unsure if the Slayer
abilities are enough against the uber-vamp. The sophomore on the
team hasn't had much playing time, but has held her own in a few
skirmishes although Dawn is showing a tendency for unnecessary
roughness.
Xander is the workhorse of the team, keeping the basics supplied,
the equipment in working order, and trying to shore up the foundations
of the team.
There remains, as you said, not only Spike and Andrew but Anya
as well. Spike is not only currently on the injured list, but
he's in the clutches of the opposing teams Head (as in plays with
others') coach who will attempt to put him on the red-shirt list
for the rest of the season. We don't know if Spike has the strength
to recover, but can be certain that the team will make the effort
to get him back to their side of the field. Andrew is a player
from the other team who doesn't have a very strong conviction
in any direction. Having lost his mentor and hero, he wavers in
every direction, but may come through in the end for the Scooby
team. Anya is firmly on the team but has the added handicap of
not only having transferred to another team and then back again,
but has the coach of the other team looking for vengeance for
her desertion. She can be a real asset to the Scooby Gang if she
can stay alive and well.
The Scooby Gang is in a period of transformation ... the veterans
are still there but the team has moved up to face much tougher
opposition and has had to recruit and expand to meet that opposition.
What remains to be seen is whether or not the new recruits and
the team members who have been warming the bench can bring their
game up to the level needed in the time available, and merge their
abilities with the veterans to have a awesome comeback.
Up to now we've just seen summer practices, with the veterans
returning, and try-outs. The first game went badly for the team.
Can they regroup, rebuild and come back with a winning season?
We've heard the rhetoric ... now can they rise to occasion? We
certainly hope so. [Trying very hard, after Churchill and St.
Crispin to resist "Win one for the Gipper!"]
Go Scoobies!! [waving Scooby pennant, suddenly wondering what
the dog has to do with anything).
[> [> LOL.. the redshirt
line is priceless!! -- neaux, 10:10:19 01/03/03 Fri
[> Re: Sports Teams/Coaches/Winning
Losing and Buffy season 7 -- Cactus Watcher, 12:58:20 01/03/03
Fri
Personally, I'm impressed with the team's new offensive coordinator,
B. A. Summers. They got pretty chewed up last game, trying to
make end runs and screen passes work against a really mobile and
unpredictable defense. In fact it's the best all-around defenses
we've seen in years. Is it any wonder that one of the younger
recruits just plain lost her nerve when faced with that kind of
opposition. I'm glad to hear that "Slayer" Summers is
now determined to cut down team Evil's advantage by running right
at them up the middle. That ought to make for some openings in
the secondary, and allow somebody to go deep for a score when
they need it most.
[> sports analogies? *shudder*
Run away! run away! -- ZachsMind, 13:51:08 01/03/03 Fri
I hate this time of year. The superbowl causes me to break out
in hives. Especially when the Dallas Cowboys win. It's a madhouse
in Big D.
Uhm.. Nice comparisons. Personally I think Buffy's got more to
do with Nietzsche
than Jerry Jones. But your mileage may vary.
[> [> Especially when
the Dallas Cowboys win. -- Vickie, 15:24:54 01/03/03 Fri
Relax, Zach. No fear this season.
Of course, after Sunday my football season is likely
to be over as well.
V. (49er faithful forever)
Is Willow
as nearly powerful as D'Hoffryn? -- Angel324, 10:05:04
01/03/03 Fri
Willow powers are acceptly more powerful than Anyanka and near
her bosses.
[> Re: Willow vs. D'Hoffryn
-- Robert, 10:45:51 01/03/03 Fri
>>> Willow powers are acceptly more powerful than
Anyanka and near her bosses.
What is your evidence?
Who has accepted this?
[> [> Based on evidence...
-- ZachsMind, 12:41:14 01/03/03 Fri
The following is based on observations from "Seeing Red,"
"Two To Go/Grave," "Bring On the Night" and
other recent episodes.
Willow is simultaneously more powerful than D'Hoffryn and completely
powerless. At present she has access to great powers but is unable
to consistently control it. It's like she's a cave man who can
set something on fire but doesn't know how to keep the blaze under
control. We learned through Halfrek's discussion with Anyanka
that even D'Hoffryn was uncomfortable right now, with the First
mixing things up. "This is a bad time to be a good guy."
Giles has said the UberVamp which The First summoned is the kind
of vampire that vampires fear. It wouldn't be much of a stretch
to say the evil which summoned it is the kind of evil that demons
fear.
Willow's tapped into the darkest of the dark magicks: The First
Evil. Something D'Hoffryn serves. D'Hoffryn does The First's bidding.
It's not the other way around. Willow has been toying dangerously
with evil magicks for years now, but she does so in an attempt
to perform good deeds. This upsets the balance of reality. Perhaps
one of the reasons why the First is upset. Its power has been
used by Willow in the past to perform good deeds. This is like
getting a member of a football team to betray his team and run
for the other team's goal with the ball. If Willow accesses her
magic abilities just a crack like a door in order to perform a
simple locator spell, it's allowing The First to get it's foot
in the door and try to take her over. If The First was ever able
to fully take Willow over indefinitely, it would then be able
to affect reality directly, using Willow as its puppet. Willow
is taking greater risk now every time she ventures into dark magicks.
However, she's also like a spy behind enemy lines. She's connected
to the very evil that the Scoobies are facing now, and this can
either be a detriment or a benefit. Depends on how the cards get
played.
Another important thing to notice is that The First has approached
Willow, Dawn & Spike. It has used Andrew because Andrew was such
an easy mark. For the majority of the first ten episodes this
evening, The First Evil has largely ignored Buffy & Xander. It's
like The First is more afraid of Willow than Buffy. More concerned
about torturing Spike than Xander. More interested in manipulating
Dawn than Anya (provided CwDP was The First and not something
else facing Dawn). Most recently it appears The First has begun
invading Buffy's dreams and posing as her Mom, but it's been left
too vague to be sure. That could be her Mom, the First, or something
else. Very little is at it seems right now.
There. I just made a bunch of absurd statements but based on evidence.
Howzzat? =)
What's your
favorite monster of the season? (spoilers through 7.10 and Angel
4.7) -- Finn Mac Cool, 14:37:20 01/03/03 Fri
I've decided that it would be fun to see what everybody thinks
of the monsters that have appeared on BtVS this season, and which
have been their favorites. Now, first let me state that this does
not include: human villains, main characters doing villainous
things, or monsters who only appeared briefly and didn't really
do anything of note. So, without futher ado, here is the list
of candidates:
1) Vamp-with-foot-caught-in-the-ground. This is kinda stretching
the last of my rules up there, but since he had a few lines and
some humor, I feel he can count on the list.
2) Ronnie the Worm Demon.
3) Gnarl.
4) Avilas (you know, lame demon summoned by slacker students).
5) Anya's Spider Demon.
6) Halfrek
7) D'Hoffryn
8) Olaf the Troll
9) Weird-thing-smothering-the-Joyce-Apparation-and-cast-out-by-Dawn.
10) Holden Webbster
11) The First Evil
12) Femme-Vampire-that-Spike-sired-and-met-in-the-Bronze.
13) The Vampires Spike sired that rose from the basement floor
(again, it kind of stretches one of my rules, but I think they
count since they did seriously affect the plot).
14) The Harbingers
15) The Uber-Vamp
I was going to do a similar polling thing for Angel, but the only
monsters I could come up with for this season are the Punk Vampires,
Marrissa the Vampire, Dinza the Demi-Goddess, Demon-with-nine-lives-that-Professor-Seidel-summoned,
Lorne's human eating friend, and, of course, THE BEAST! All in
all, that's only six candidates, so I've decided to limit it to
Buffy, but you can vote on them if you wish.
(Oh, and feel free to leave fun and funny comments with your responses,
because otherwise I'd feel like an English teacher)
[> My favorite monster this
season ain't on your list... -- ZachsMind, 15:39:26 01/03/03
Fri
You wanna monster? I got a monster for ya: BUFFY.
I think Buffy's a monster for how she treats others. She's selfish
and she's whiny. PLUS she can bench press several football quarterbacks
with one arm tied behind her back, and she's so scary there's
a lot of things that go bump in the night which shut the hell
up when she walks by. If something is so scary it scares other
monsters? It too constitutes as a monster. Just as Wazowski & Sully.
Buffy's got a job to do and should just do it and quit being so
reactionary. Superiority/Inferiority Complex indeed. She uses
her position as "Slayer" as an excuse to be able to
use and abuse others carte blanche. She treats Dawn like a baby
when she's proven time and again she can more than take care of
herself. She strung Xander along back in season two (When She
Was Bad), and this season she called him an idiot to his face
(okay. so Xander was to stupid to realize she insulted him.)
What Buffy's put Spike through is sad. If she loves the big lumox
she should just come out and say it. But she's a whiny pansy who
can't admit her own feelings to herself much less a guy who's
already dead.
If Willow goes and kills someone, Buffy tries to talk her down
and knock some sense into her but death is just not an option.
If Anya goes and kills someone, Buffy puts a hole in her chest,
THEN Buffy has the balls the go on a long tirade speech about
how she's the Slayer and she has to put Anya in the ground cuz
it's all might makes right and blah blah blah. Double standards.
Buffy should have shown Anya the same patience and understanding
she showed Willow.
"When She Was Bad" ??? When has she not been bad?
And don't even git me started on how she treated Angel near the
end, or Riley from day one. You want a monster? Pick Buffy. She's
your monster.
[> [> This could be a
pleasant dish if it could be taken with a grain of salt. --
Finn Mac Cool, 16:07:08 01/03/03 Fri
Is this meant to be entirely serious? And, at any rate, I said
I wasn't counting human villains or main characters, so Buffy
doesn't fall into the monster list even if you believe all of
those things.
[> [> [> What do you
mean 'believe'? -- ZachsMind, 16:37:44 01/03/03 Fri
It's called "Devil's Advocate." You listed all those
other monsters and I think Buffy outmonsters them all. She's the
scariest thing going. After seven years of outscaring monsters,
one would kinda have to be.
I didn't make up any of that stuff. Those are actions Buffy has
committed. She uses a great deal of power in an inconsistent and
sometimes even selfish manner. What? Monsters have to wear prosthetic
ears and false pointy teeth? They can't be human? The worst monsters
in history were human.
Buffy is so scary, she scares other monsters. I don't see how
she had the right to do what she did to Spike. Her treatment of
him the past two years has been quite literally monstrous.
Norman of Alfred Hitchcock's Psycho was a monster too. He just
didn't wear a mask and makeup.
Buffy's powers stem from The First Slayer. According to the legend,
the priests who made the first slayer took a slice of evil from
their enemy, and harnessed it by putting it into the body, psyche
and soul of a young woman. Buffy's powers come from evil just
as Willow's powers do. The only difference is Willow knows it.
Buffy doesn't. Dracula tried to tell her where her powers came
from but she wouldn't hear it. She has the pride and false bravado
of Doctor Frankenstein & Dr. Jeckyl combined.
Buffy's a powder keg. It really wouldn't take very much to turn
Buffy and make her join the other side. She's almost there now.
I don't see my argument being proven wrong here. I see it being
dismissed on a technicality.
[> [> [> [> 'Kay,
honey, let's talk. -- HonorH, 18:01:16 01/03/03 Fri
1. Regarding Dawn: what season are you watching? I'm watching
a season that started out with Buffy training Dawn and features
Dawn as a fully-integrated member of the Scooby Gang. She researches,
she goes along even on dangerous missions, she wields weapons,
she kicks ass. Buffy's still protective of her, yes, but in addition
to being her sister and the Slayer (and thus equipped to save
Dawn's life), Buffy's Dawn's legal guardian. She's responsible
for Dawn--responsible for raising her, giving her a house and
a sense of security, forming Dawn's character for the next few
years. Last year, I'd have agreed with you. This year, not so
much.
2. Xander: okay, you're talking about an incident that happened
when Buffy was sixteen. Unless you're willing to have your character
judged on how you behaved when you were sixteen, I think you'd
best back off this one. As for the, "Or we could be smart
. . . sorry, Xander," statement, let he or she who's never
had an, "Oops, that didn't sound good, did it?" moment
throw the first stone.
3. Anya vs. Willow: this has been discussed ad infinitum, but
it really was a judgment call. Willow went bad in a moment of
passion and remained human. Anya went back to being a demon and
appeared to be unrepentant. Buffy had to do something in each
case, and she judged Willow to be salvagable and Anya a greater
threat. It's defensible reasoning. She could've been wrong in
each case, but then again, she could've been right. Buffy's called
on to make these decisions every day and every night. Sometimes,
things are murky. She's still got to act, though. She's always
got to act.
4. Spike: yes, she did act like a monster to him. She admits as
much. But she's helping him now, encouraging him in his quest
for redemption. A true monster either can't see that she's a monster,
or just doesn't care. Buffy saw, and she's trying to make up for
her actions. I don't see a monster in that.
5. Superiority/inferiority complex: I'm sorry, Zach, but your
reasoning here totally escapes me. Until you've been through what
she has, making the world-changing decisions every day for the
past six-seven years, dying and living again twice, fighting day
in, day out, saving lives for no monetary reward and little thanks,
I don't see that you can judge what her state of mind should be.
[> [> [> [> [>
Also, while Buffy has the potential to go dark. . . --
Finn Mac Cool, 18:10:50 01/03/03 Fri
. . . so does everyone. And, while the Slayer's power may come
from demonic sources, each individual Slayer controls how to use
it. If Buffy were as easy to draw over to the dark side as Zachsmind
says, it would have happened already. Despite all the temptations,
hard times, and influences from the dark side side of the force,
Buffy is still slaying evil, saving lives, and fighting the good
fight. We've seen her go through a lot that would make a lot of
us go to the dark side for comfort, but she has resisted and pulled
through. So, if there ever is a "Buffy goes evil" thing,
it would take a whole HELL of a lot to accomplish the job.
P.S. Zachsmind, given that I made it pretty clear humans and main
characters wouldn't count for the monster list, you still made
a post raising Buffy up as your example of a monster. I can only
conclude that you were yearning for some attention, even if it
meant a thread hijack. Tsk, tsk, bad form.
[> [> [> [> [>
'Until you've been through what she has...' -- ZachsMind,
19:02:01 01/03/03 Fri
Regarding point five, then somebody go stop the judicial system
of America right now, cuz that's what they do every day. They
judge people without having walked in their shoes. It's not a
prerequisite for judging someone.
All your other points are valid though. I still say Buffy's my
favorite monster. That's my opinion. We can agree to disagree.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Allow me to clarify: -- HonorH, 19:13:01 01/03/03
Fri
What I heard you saying was that she shouldn't have a complex
after all she's been through. Had you said she shouldn't act the
way she does, you'd have had a valid point. However, no one is
qualified to judge another's emotions and mental state. When those
emotions and mental state drive them to commit crimes, then the
judicial system steps in, as it should. Even then, though, allowances
are made--such as the case being re-tried in California in which
a woman killed her abusive husband. But that's really beside the
point, in any case.
What I'm saying is that Buffy's superiority/inferiority complex
is perfectly valid. She has great power, was given that power
at a young age. I don't think anyone but a saint wouldn't feel
that, because they were selected to be the one who stands in the
gap against all evil, they weren't superior in some way--at least
on an unconscious level. At the same time, Buffy carries a lot
of guilt over things she's done (like Spike, for instance), lives
she's been unable to save, mishandled situations, and also for
that feeling of superiority. Thus, she feels inferior at the same
time that she feels superior. She feels set apart from those she
loves. To say she should "get over it" is to say she
shouldn't have these feelings--in other words, to be less human.
As for her being a monster, if she is, she's a monster who's saved
a heck of a lot of lives and sacrificed a great deal to do so.
I'll take a monster like that.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> I see your side but it does not invalidate my opinion.
-- ZachsMind, 22:22:33 01/03/03 Fri
"What I'm saying is that Buffy's superiority/inferiority
complex is perfectly valid."
Perfectly valid. I absolutely agree. We understand exactly why
she's become what she's become.
The same can be said for Norman Bates. One can say his fall into
madness was perfectly valid, considering what his mother put him
through. It's possible any human put through what that character
went through would have gone over the edge. That may explain his
actions, but it doesn't make his actions okay.
Here's another example. Doctor Frankenstein wanted to prove his
findings valid. He wanted to prove he could bring the dead back
to life. Originally his intentions were truly noble. What doctor
wouldn't want to save his patients? However, his peers in the
medical industry could see what he couldn't. What he was proposing
would lead to experimentation on human tissue. He'd be playing
God, making mistakes along the way, at the cost of other human
beings. They laughed him out of their conference. He became a
recluse because none of his peers would take him seriously. He
became obsessed with proving them wrong. One can understand where
he went wrong and why, but it doesn't excuse the creation of his
..well, 'monster.' Actually the humanoid freak who Dr. Frankenstein
brought back to life looked like a monster, but he was really
a sweetheart. The REAL monster was the doctor who created him.
People always seem to forget that. People call the big guy with
the neck plugs "Frankenstein" but he really never had
a real name.
The events that have led to now in the life of the character of
Buffy do explain with total validity why she's done what she's
done, but let's just look at a few examples of what she's done.
She stabbed her boyfriend Angel and sent him to hell.
She nearly drove Riley mad playing with his mind and his emotions,
which eventually drove him into the arms of a vampire prostitute.
She led Spike on, used him for her own selfish sexual desires,
and then dropped him like a rock when he fell in love with her.
It just got too creepy and she couldn't hang. This led him to
go get his soul to try and become what he thought she might love,
and now look at him. He's gettin' the crap beat out of him every
episode now. Does he deserve it? Maybe. Spike's been a monster
a lot over the years too.
We understand WHY all this has happened, but when guys talk with
their buddies about the girls that have wronged them, they usually
describe their girls as monsters. And I just don't see how Buffy's
any different.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> Re: I see your side but it does not invalidate
my opinion. -- HonorH, 23:58:36 01/03/03 Fri
Having a few logical problems here:
She stabbed her boyfriend Angel and sent him to hell.
I don't suppose she gets off the hook on account of it being the
only way to save the world?
She nearly drove Riley mad playing with his mind and his emotions,
which eventually drove him into the arms of a vampire prostitute.
First of all, what happened between Buffy and Riley was *not*
all her fault. She didn't play with his mind or emotions; she
was very fond of him, cared about him, perhaps even thought she
loved him. She just didn't love him in the way he needed to be
loved, which is not her fault. He wanted to take care of her;
she couldn't be taken care of because she's Buffy. At any point,
he could've spoken to her, asked her point-blank if she loved
him. He could've broken up with her. Instead of dealing with his
heart and emotions in a mature way, he went to vampire trulls.
She no more "drove" him to it than any woman "drives"
her man into the arms of another woman. He went there himself.
She led Spike on, used him for her own selfish sexual desires,
and then dropped him like a rock when he fell in love with her.
First, Spike was already in love with her. She knew that going
in. Yes, she did use him. She admitted that--several times, in
fact. She felt bad about it, and broke it off because of that.
She did a bad thing, and then she did what she could to make it
right. This is what she's continuing to do. Since her catharsis
with Holden, she's treated him well. When she saw how agonized
he was over what he was doing, she refused to stake him, agreed
to help him, and has communicated honestly and openly with him.
I ask you point-blank: where's the monstrosity in Buffy as she
is?
We understand WHY all this has happened, but when guys talk
with their buddies about the girls that have wronged them, they
usually describe their girls as monsters. And I just don't see
how Buffy's any different.
And this proves what? That guys who feel their girls done them
wrong have a tendency to exaggerate?
Okay, let's take this from a slightly less irritated-HonorH angle:
say a girl, any girl, does a guy wrong. Cheats on him or something.
They break up, the guy bad-mouths her, and things go downhill
for a bit. Later, though, she goes to him, admits what she did
wrong, apologizes sincerely, and wants to make pax. She says she
knows they can't get back together after what she did, but she
wants to get along with him because she genuinely respects him.
She's a changed woman.
I'd say that after that, if the guy went on bad-mouthing her without
bothering to notice that she'd changed, he'd be the "monster".
Also, that scenario is ignoring the fact that Buffy and Spike's
relationship wasn't just bad from her end of things. He was bad
for her, period. They've both changed, though; they're not being
monsters to each other any more, and they seem to be on the road
to reconciliation and respect.
I say, if they can let it go, so can we.
[> [> Please tell me
this is a joke. -- HonorH, 16:20:08 01/03/03 Fri
If it isn't, sorry to say it, Zach, but your mind ain't so hot
today.
[> [> OK, I'm getting
geared up now. . . -- Finn Mac Cool, 17:51:11 01/03/03
Fri
I'll do this in a paragraph by paragraph reply:
#1: OK, this depends on the definition of monster. To some, this
means a horrifying, non-human creature. To others, it means any
horrifying creature, human or not. There is also another definition
whereby a monster is a supernatural, inhuman creature, regardless
of whether they are horrifying or not. This last definition uses
monster as a morally and emotionally neutral term, though over
many years fear of the supernatural has given the word "monster"
a negative light. Also, I think the word "whiny" is
far overrused, I have never found any of the characters to be
whiny for more than three or four episodes across the series.
#2: About how she treats Dawn: she is over protective. But then,
Joyce was sometimes over protective of Buffy, yet she is not called
a monster. Besides, Dawn does seem to have the Summers instinct
for getting herself into dangerous situations, so the over protectiveness
is somewhat warranted. As for stringing along Xander, that was
for one episode, and the whole point was that Buffy was acting
abnormally.
#3: You're assuming that Buffy loves Spike here. I tend to think
otherwise, and the writers seem to agree. As for "what she
put Spike through", I assume you're talking about Season
Six. Yeah, she did a lot of horrible things during that time,
mainly directed at Spike. But, like "When She Was Bad",
this was presented as a temporary state that Buffy had to work
her way through (albeit it was a much longer state than previously).
And, given that every single cast member did horrible things during
the course of Season Six, I find it odd that you single out Buffy.
#4: Their situations aren't the same. Anya was a demon, while
Willow was human. A point made clear in the Buffyverse is that
killing human beings is deeply immoral. Even in self-defense or
defense of others, it's to be avoided like the plague. Sparing
Anya after the massacre of frat boys would be a double standard,
since slaying murderous demons is the point of the job Buffy's
upheld for the past seven years. Granted, we, as the omniscient
audience, know that Anya was suffering from guilt and wanted to
turn things around, but she never showed that side to Buffy. What
Buffy got to see was a man killed by the demon Anya created, she
got to hear Willow recount Anya saying "they deserved it",
and she even allowed Xander to reach Anya first, to talk some
sense into her, but Anya was acting exactly as if she didn't care
even a tiny bit about the deaths she had caused (she may have
cared deeply in her heart, but she hid that secret deep). After
all this, Anya comes off as a murderous demon who feels no remorse.
Buffy was taking a great leap of faith by leaving Anya un-molested
over the course of the summer, despite knowing that, as a vengeance
demon, killing and maiming was part of her job description. She
waited until Anya did something so evil that action had to be
taken. If killing a killer demon, who shows no signs of repenting,
is wrong, than you are getting a totally different vibe off the
show.
#5: Um, most of her life.
#6: Without more information, I can't be really clear what you're
getting at here.
[> [> On second thought,
I'm on board. -- HonorH (putting on a Buffy Basher hat), 18:11:06
01/03/03 Fri
Buffy's a total selfish bitch. I mean, she should just forget
about trying to have a life and just be a slaying machine. Who's
she to try and decide what she should slay and what she shouldn't?
If it doesn't breathe or looks funny, I say it's either dust or
in pieces. Angel and Spike should've gone long ago, but she was
just too stupid to see it.
Speaking of which, what's she doing with Spike? Can't she see
what a saint he is? He's only wanted her happiness, ever. He's
really not a bad guy. Why doesn't she admit she loves him and
marry him? Honestly, he's a far better man than she.
And her friends? She doesn't appreciate their contributions. Sure,
she saves their asses on a regular basis, but that's only because
she'd be heartbroken if they died. Just thinking of herself, yet
again.
And why does she even have friends in the first place? See above
re: being a slaying machine. She should've just sent them home
like good little boys and girls and done her job.
As for Dawn, that's the worst. Why didn't she let Dawn die in
"The Gift"? I mean, sure, "Greater love hath no
one" yada, yada, yada, but Buffy's life is way more important
than Dawn's. Who cares if she loved her? Buffy should've given
Little Sis the heave-ho herself.
For that matter, Buffy's so selfish she risks her life night after
night for totally useless people. What she should do is decide
who's worth saving and who's not and only save the really good
people. Otherwise, she should protect her own life. After all,
she is the Slayer; they don't grow on trees. Holy Hera, doesn't
the girl ever think of anyone but herself?
[> [> [> ROFLMAO,
HonorH! :o) -- Rob, 09:02:34 01/04/03 Sat
[> [> [> Heh - sarcasm
is our greatest weapon against trolling ;) -- slain, 09:20:39
01/04/03 Sat
[> [> [> [> It
was most definitely not my intent to troll. I answered the question.
-- ZachsMind, 10:40:38 01/04/03 Sat
[> [> [> [> [>
Trolling? -- LittleBit, 12:31:22 01/04/03 Sat
Perhaps I have completely misunderstood the nature of trolling,
but I don't consider someone who has been an active member of
this board, with some very interesting posts, to be a troll because
he happens to espress an opinion that is not popular with the
board.
ZachsMind expressed his opinion regarding what makes a monster,
and yes, in the original post humans and main characters doing
villainous things were specifically excluded so perhaps this was
not the thread for this discussion, but to call it trolling goes
a bit too far.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Thank you. -- ZachsMind, 21:06:24 01/04/03 Sat
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: It was most definitely not my intent to troll. I answered
the question. -- slain, 13:15:02 01/04/03 Sat
Well, you did divert the topic into an area which I expect you
knew would get an angry reaction from some posters who are wont
to defend characters against 'bashing'. However I conceed that
nothing you said could really be considered trolling, so think
of what I wrote as an ill-thought out comment which I'll apologise
for.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> To be honest, no. -- ZachsMind, 21:04:57 01/04/03
Sat
I don't recall seeing the part where humans were ruled out. I
must have skimmed the message. I recall scanning it up and down
and NOT seeing Buffy, and I was like, "waitatick where is
she?" Some of the best monsters in history AND fiction have
been normal human beings with sick, twisted minds. People who
took a road less travelled in their life experiences but forgot
that left turn at Albequerque.
Saying you can't include humans in the monster category is like
asking, "what's your favorite music but don't mention anything
heavy metal," or "what's your favorite actor on the
show, but don't include women in your answer." It's prejudicial.
I could argue just as easily that the original post was inciteful,
for being so exclusive. I expressed my opinion. Others' reactions
to my opinion are beyond my control and I will not accept responsibility
for them.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> A non-human who does evil is a monster; a human
who does evil is a villain. -- Finn Mac Cool, 22:02:28
01/04/03 Sat
Though the two words seem interchangeable in the case of vampires
and creatures like them, who are non-human but look and act very
human most of the time.
Also, you'll note I was only doing Season Seven monsters, and
Buffy really hasn't done anything this season to be worthy of
"villainous" or "monstrous", unless you count
actions done in "Him", which were out of her control
due to the jacket spell.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> I accept that, then -- slain, 09:08:32 01/05/03
Sun
Objection: If an original post has the capacity to be incite,
then a reply to such possible incitefulness has a capacity to
incite, according to the rules of divine providence; therefore
any reponsibilty for being inciteful rests on the capicity of
the writer to use logic to confuse and muddy the argument until
the original disagreement is forgotten? Thomas Aquinas, you have
taught me well.
Anyway... I forget that you're new to the board (not that I've
been here since the stone age, but anyway) - so I suppose we have
to look at things differently. But your reaction to my criticism
stands you in better stead, at least for me, than your original
post did. So good show, there.
As for the monster thing, the term can refer to literal (fangs
etc) monsters as well as to human monsters who are monstrous 'inside';
humans, in other words, though Finn did mean literal monsters.
But of course on BtVS we have characters like Spike or Angel who
are literal monsters, but who we wouldn't normally consider to
be 'monsters' so much as 'characters'. However the issue
for me isn't whether or not humans can be called monsters, because
clearly they can. Even the most famous literal monsters (Frankenstein's
monster, Dracula, the Mummy, the Werewolf, Jekyl and Hyde) are
in some way human.
[> [> [> [> I didn't
consider ZachsMind to be trolling. -- HonorH, 17:20:32
01/04/03 Sat
I did, however, consider him to be engaging in character bashing.
That tends to bring out my sarcasm (no matter what character is
being bashed, btw). See above for my serious response.
[> [> [> [> [>
Character bashing? I'm talking about the Monster Inside.
-- ZachsMind, 13:15:32 01/05/03 Sun
Recently I've been revisiting the amazing folk/blues/rock artistry
of a local Dallas musician named Rick
Yost. He has a song called "Monster Inside"
which I highly recommend to any fan of Buffy. I've often believed
it to be the unofficial anthem of Oz. However, recently it could
also describe to a lesser extent the battle waging within Buffy
herself.
"I'll soon become the beast
That hides inside of me
Its had a taste of blood
And it must never be free.."
Buffy's power stems from evil. She knows this. We've known this
since at least "Restless" and "Before Dawn."
She's tried to rise above it. Dracula tried to tell her this.
BUFFY: What are you-
DRACULA: All those years fighting us. Your power so near to our
own... (Cuts his arm with a fingernail till blood wells up) ...and
you've never once wanted to know what it is that we fight for?
(Holds his arm out to Buffy) Never even a taste?
BUFFY: (looks conflicted) If I drink that-
DRACULA: I have not drunk enough for you to change. You must be
near death to become one of us. And that comes only when you plead
for it.
BUFFY: (staring at his wrist) I'm not hungry.
DRACULA: No. Your craving goes deeper than that.
Buffy stares at him.
DRACULA: (whispering) You think you know ... what you are ...
what's to come. You haven't even begun.
Buffy looks at his arm, at his face. Takes his hand in both of
hers and puts her mouth on the bloody wrist.
DRACULA: Find it. The darkness. Find your true nature.
Buffy's eyes are wide.
A very quick series of shots flashing by. Most are shots of Buffy
fighting, but a few are shots of the First Slayer from episode
"Restless." There's also a shot of a vein with blood
corpuscles rushing through it.
Buffy lifts her head.
BUFFY: (softly) Wow.
She suddenly shoves out her hand and pushes Dracula away. He lands
on the table and slides across it on his back.
BUFFY: (normal voice) That was gross.
She walks forward as Dracula gets to his feet.
DRACULA: You are resisting.
BUFFY: Looks like.
DRACULA: Come here. Come to me. (holds out hand)
BUFFY: You know, I really think the thrall has gone out of our
relationship. But I want to thank you for opening up my eyes a
little.
DRACULA: What is this?
BUFFY: My true nature. You want a taste?
Buffy IS a monster. She HAS to be. The priests who made the First
Slayer believed it the only way to combat the monsters that threatened
humanity: fight fire with fire. Fight monsters with monsters.
It was a desperate act which created the Slayer line, much as
it was a desperate act which created Dawn The Key.
I wasn't bashing Buffy. Joss Whedon devised Buffy as a monster
from day one. He wanted a character that could stand in and pinch
hit for all those helpless blondes in the horror movies who would
walk down a dark alley or abandoned hallway and be attacked by
evil. How better to fight monsters than to take an innocent little
girl and turn her into one? NOT calling Buffy a monster is being
untrue to her character and to Whedon's message.
I was criticizing Buffy's actions. It's something Buffy has been
known to do to herself. It's why she has a superiority/inferiority
complex. She knows that what makes her a Slayer is potentially
evil. She tries to take responsibility for that. Is she deserving
of this power and if so, what does that mean? The power's great
and has saved the world, but it also stems from evil. If she does
deserve it does that make her a hero or a monster? Does it make
her both simultaneously?
Buffy's not a villian. Villians commit selfish acts of evil knowing
they are evil and selfish. She does walk a fine line there however.
Some villians commit selfish evil believing it to be for the purposes
of a greater good. The line that Buffy cannot cross is in using
her strength to kill a normal human. She knows as a vampire slayer
she's got carte blanche on vampires and demons - even witches
that go over the edge, but when it comes to people like Warren,
she TRIES to leave that up to the police and the courts. As Willow
pointed out though, sometimes those avenues of justice fail.
Even so, many choices Buffy has made over the years, including
some this season, have been monstrous. Though she is trying to
overcome them. She knows she's done Spike wrong in the past and
she's trying to make up for it. The scene where she held the blood
bag for a delirious Spike was quite a message. The emotionless
look on her face. The searching eyes. The feeling of loss and
uncertainty. Again from Mr. Yost:
"Beware of the Monster
Dont look into his eyes
Beware of the Monster
The Monster from inside
It feeds on the truth
And it will kill all your lies
You can't escape the beast
It will haunt you til you die."
She knows Spike is a monster, but he's also done some good. Is
helping him now a monstrous or a noble act? She's gotten to the
point where she almost can't tell the difference. She does love
him, but to express that love, to give into it, she fears that
would put her over the edge. Make her a monster too. However,
she already is one. It's the beast inside her - the evil from
where her Slayer powers stem. She's the living embodiment of fighting
fire with fire. She has a piece of that evil that the first Slayer
received from those priests eons ago. They took the power of their
enemy, magically filtered it and channelled it into the First
Slayer. Buffy's a recipient of that age-old prophecy but it's
not a blessing. The Slayer line is a cursed line.
Her staking Anya was another monstrous act. We know the events
leading up to it and we understand why, but she didn't stake Willow.
Willow was hunting out of vengeance. Anya was a vengeance demon.
Buffy's actions between the two ladies were inconsistent, yet
their crimes against humanity were almost identical. Killing men
who had wronged women. Did Anya and Willow not deserve identical
punishments? (well okay it can be argued whether either of them
deserve punishment at all, I mean both Warren and those college
frat brats were meanies)
Buffy remained friends with Willow but treated Anya as an enemy
when what Anya really needed was a friend. When Buffy put a hole
through Anya's chest, who was the monster there?
Character bashing? I don't bash Whedon's creations but I do argue
the moral ambiguities of all the characters. It's one of the many
things that makes this series so fascinating. Buffy is the lead
role in the series. The series is named after her. However, she
doesn't run around wearing the white hat. She's not 100% good
and she knows this. Sometimes she falls on the wrong side of what's
just and right. She does the best she can, but ultimately she's
just a simple human mind given great power. With great power comes
great responsibility. A tip of the hat to Uncle Ben.
This argument in this thread has gone quite silly. We're getting
lost in minutiae and semantics. The truth is, if you caught Buffy
at a particularly low moment, she'd agree with me. She has been,
sometimes is, and can become a greater monster. She's got within
her the eternal struggle that to one degree or another every living
being fights. The struggle between the angel & demon within. The
monster inside.
I'm not bashing Buffy when I say this. I'm reinforcing what she
is. I'm acknowledging and accepting the message that Whedon is
expressing. Sometimes the only way to take back the night is to
become it.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Understood. However-- -- HonorH, 17:47:06 01/05/03
Sun
I don't agree. To me, being a monster means more than just having
monstrous moments. Given Buffy's entire life, I certainly wouldn't
describe her as a monster. Furthermore, you'll have to excuse
me for saying this, but to the uneducated eye, your original post
certainly *looks* like a rather fine vintage of Buffy-bashing.
You took her worst moments, many of which she learned from and
grew beyond, and created an unjust character portrait from them.
One last thing regarding Anya--yes, Buffy did stick a sword through
her chest. But she knew that wouldn't do any permanent harm. She
*had* to know that, given what she saw with Halfrek a year ago.
Did it occur to you that perhaps she was giving Anya one last
chance to turn from her demon ways, stop fighting, and rejoin
the good guys?
[> [> [> [> [>
[> The word 'monster' seems to be a main source of agitation
in this debate. -- Finn Mac Cool, 17:49:39 01/05/03 Sun
OK, you're definitely using a definition of monster I'm not familiar
with. You seem to use it in different scenarios to define either
a) someone with powers honed to fighting abilities, or b) any
person who happens to be behaving immorally at the moment. I have
problems with both of these: first, in definition "a",
using monster seems like the wrong words since from the beginning
Buffy has both been human and fought for the side of good, which
really eliminates most standard definitions of monster. As for
definition "b", I do concede that a "human monster"
is a term that is often used, but usually in relation to serial
killers or terrorists and the like. There's a difference between
saying that someone did something monstrous (and I don't deny
there have been a few occasions when this has been true for Buffy)
and saying they are a monster. Just as there's a difference between
saying someone did something evil and saying that the person is
evil. Being monstrous is something to do and is usually an isolated
action, being a monster is a state of being. I think you will
find it hard to argue that Buffy's nature is to do the wrong thing
and behave monstrously, thus she falls out of being in the category
of a monster. For every bad thing she's done, there are at least
a hundred good things.
Now, you may be trying to classify Buffy as a monster because
of all the talk about "a Slayer's power is rooted in darkness",
and the "Fray" flashback I've been hearing so much about.
But here's the thing: there's a difference between being rooted
in darkness and rooted in evil. Buffy's power may originally have
come from a demonic force, but the demon's evil intentions are
no longer part of the package. There has never been any indication
given that having the Slayer powers has a metaphysical influence
on the Slayer; Buffy has total free will when it comes with what
to do with it. If Buffy's powers came from a force for good rather
than a force for evil, it wouldn't make a difference, because
Buffy merely gets the POWER of the original, demonic force. And
power is morally neutral by nature; it all matters in how Buffy
uses it.
Now, rooted in darkness means two things, and neither means the
same thing as rooted in evil.
The first is that, since Buffy's powers originally belonged to
a demonic force, that means that there might not be a force for
good backing her up and giving her the strength she uses.
The second bears some harking back to Star Wars, which Whedon
has claimed to have influenced him in several ways. There, the
Force, as used by the Jedi, is dispassionate, focused on doing
the right thing at the expense of human experience. Meanwhile,
the dark side of the Force is fuelled by emotions such as hate,
anger, love, passion. Buffy's greatest strength has arisen from
moments of passion and emotion, thus it is rooted in the dark
side. Though, I don't Whedon holding the same view as Lucas did,
that the dark side is evil, since BtVS has often praised passion
and emotion, so just because something's rooted in the dark side
of the Force in the Buffyverse doesn't mean it's evil.
Now, three more things:
1) "Did Anya and Willow not deserve identical punishments?"
No, at least, not from the information given to Buffy. I again
go back up to what I said above about monsters and being monstrous:
for humans, like Willow, evil is something you do, but they can
come back for it. For demons, evil is a state of being. We know
that Anya's humanity survived the re-demonization process, but
Anya kept that a secret from all. Because of this difference between
human evil and demon evil, Buffy has a responsibility as the Slayer
to not kill humans because they are capable of redeeming themselves,
but demons aren't, unless they're vengeance demons, apparently,
but Buffy couldn't know that.
2) You seem to be assuming that Buffy loves Spike, which is a
rather dangerous thing to assume, given the messages given off
in the show and said by writers to the audience.
3) This goes back to the starting thing about how you use the
word monster. I don't deny that Buffy isn't perfect, that she
sometimes does the wrong thing, and that she has the potential
to become a monster inside her. All that is true about Buffy -
and everyone to ever live, whether in the Buffyverse or in the
Realverse. I agree that her enormous power gives a lot of temptation
to use it for selfish and evil purposes, and would make her more
dangerous if she ever did become a monster, but so far that hasn't
happened, and she's been through a lot of temptation, so I think
it's fair to say that Buffy's moral character counterbalances
the greater temptation put on her. If you call her a monster because
she has the potential to be a monster, then I must ask if you
go walking down the street and think "MONSTER!" whenever
you see someone.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Great Post -- Dan The Man, 19:38:32 01/05/03
Sun
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> One of your main assumptions is false in the Buffyverse...
-- KdS, 05:20:42 01/06/03 Mon
If Buffy's powers came from a force for good rather than a
force for evil, it wouldn't make a difference, because Buffy merely
gets the POWER of the original, demonic force. And power is morally
neutral by nature; it all matters in how Buffy uses it.
Sorry, that's obviously wrong in the Buffyverse. The key factor
that sent Willow down her dark path was her materialist belief
that power is morally neutral by nature. Dead wrong, we saw evidence
all through S6 that black magic in the Buffyverse has a mystical
morally corrosive element on the caster beyond mundane considerations
of cause and effect.
There have been several indications that Slayer powers aren't
just morally neutral superpowers - that they come with an added
predatory drive that goes beyond normal human aggression. Buffy
herself admitted in early S5 that her "patrolling" had
turned into "hunting". I got a strong impression from
S3 that we were intended to believe that Faith's relish for violence
wasn't just from her personal hang-ups, but something inherent
to Slayerness that Buffy shared.
This doesn't mean that Buffy doesn't have free will. It does mean
that she has more inner darkness to deal with and control than
the average human being, and that isn't intended to "bash"
her, but if anything to give her due credit for the way she's
resisted it.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> Hmmm. -- Sophist, 09:39:40 01/06/03
Mon
I don't think the issue is quite so clear as you suggest. I do
agree that there are times when the show suggests that "all
power corrupts". But I also think that there are at least
as many other occasions when it appears that power can be and
is a force for good when used with proper intent. In fact, I think
the most important lesson on the show -- one which would be diminished
if your point were as strong as you suggest -- is that human
weakness is the source of our woes.
The example of Willow demonstrates both aspects. I agree with
you that we were supposed to draw a lesson about the corrupting
effect of magic in S6. However, Willow's spells in S1-5 were overwhelmingly
successful and without consequences (as were Giles'). From this,
I think it fair to conclude that the lesson from those seasons
was that magic was useful, indeed essential, in the struggle for
good.
Even if there were an exception for magic, I wouldn't necessarily
agree that Buffy's slayer power is inherently corrupting. If it
were, we'd no doubt have many past examples of slayers turned
to the dark side, yet these have never been mentioned. In the
broadest sense, the temptation to use power for ill may always
exist, but that doesn't make the power itself corrupting.
Nor did I see Faith as an example of corruption caused by her
slayer power. I thought the lesson there was that her human weaknesses
led to her downfall. That, to me, is a much more compelling story
than one involving corruption by a mystical super power. A story
of human weakness is universal; corruption by a mystical force
imparts no lesson to anyone.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> She was corrupted by her Slayer power.
. . -- Finn Mac Cool, 09:51:11 01/06/03 Mon
In the sense that it was what made the dark side too tempting
for her to resist. But I do agree her corruption wasn't a metaphysical
thing with the possible exception of added predatory instincts.
If she had been given any sort of great power, I think she still
would have been corrupted.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> No, she was corrupted by her
lonliness -- Sara, 18:12:19 01/06/03 Mon
Faith could have been trouble with or without slayer power. I
think it was very clear she was looking for a place to belong,
and when she felt rejected by Buffy and her group, found herself
a place on the other side. It wasn't the slayer thing, it was
the "where do I fit in?" thing. And as a regular non-slayer,
if she didn't find a place with nice people she would look for
one with very unnice people. She may very well be the most vulnerable
character they've developed on the show.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> On the magic issue -- KdS, 05:35:39
01/07/03 Tue
Note that my argument here is significantly inspired by Slain's
essay The
Demon Vs. the Rose which was written mid-S6 but fits in sufficiently
well with subsequent developments to suggest that his interpretation
is fairly close to ME's intent.
Willow's spells up to Tough Love and Giles's and Tara's
in general seemed to be of the form Masq refers to as invocations
or supplications - channelling the power of some enchanted object
or benevolent entity. The black magic we see in Tough Love
and coming from Rack in Wrecked seems to come from a much
rawer and significantly evil source which is more easily bent
to the will of the caster but carries an effect of mystical corruption.
It's that type which I see as not morally neutral. As I see it,
this is the best way not to retcon S6 completely, but to tone
down its more obnoxious and puritanical implications about Things
(Wo)Man Was Not Meant To Know. In particular, Willow's behaviour
in Two to Go after killing Rack but before draining Giles
seems to me to imply some degree of possession.
(Difficult to explain here because I'm not an expert on mystical
traditions, but the Exorcist model of possession as black-and-white
spiritual rape is a lot cruder than earlier traditions. There's
a stress in a lot of Christian thought on demonic possession that
there is always a degree of invitation and two-way mingling of
personality. It isn't a black and white dichotomy between "Oh,
Willow was always that way, now she's letting it out" and
"Poor Willow, taken over by black magic". It doesn't
seem to me that I'm letting Willow off the hook because she made
the choice to kill Rack and knew to a considerable degree what
the power she drained from him might do to her - like the guy
who knows that he gets violent when he drinks but still goes out
and gets tanked up).
The problem at the moment seems to be that Willow opened a door
that she has trouble closing - similarly to a souled vampire vamping
out, when she's under threat or stress she reaches straight for
the black magic to protect herself, and like a souled vampire
she'll carry on being a danger to herself and others for as long
as she thinks she can just split off what she's picked up. Choosing
my words carefully here - I don't think Willow's inner demon is
simply an expression of human stuff that was always there - she
invited it in and now it's part of her.
So human weakness and mystical corruption are not dichotomous
choices - rather, in the Buffyverse, the use of dark power can
mystically corrupt you but you have to be open to that corruption
first.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> Re: On the magic issue --
Sophist, 09:18:03 01/07/03 Tue
I see the distinction you're making, and I agree with it up to
a point. I particularly like your suggestion of dating the corrupting
influence of magic on Willow to Tough Love. I think that does
solve many of the retcon problems raised by S6.
The real problem I have is not with your argument, per se, but
with ME's treatment of magic prior to S6 (or at least Tough Love).
I felt they never gave us a hint that magic came in 2 flavors,
"good" and "bad". It seemed to be more a question
of intent or purpose. Given the number of times Willow's magic
use was essential to the plot, and her high percentage of success
with spells, many of the statements about magic in S6 made little
sense.
Malandanza has suggested that all magic carries an inherent risk;
the more you use it, the greater the risk. I think this makes
sense also, but, again, never saw it suggested until S6.
I'm rambling a bit here, so I'll just say that I'm very malleable
on this subject and happy to accept your take on it in order to
avoid most of the retcon problems.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> I always assumed the predatory thing was
because. . . -- Finn Mac Cool, 09:46:15 01/06/03 Mon
Being the Slayer forced them to use the predatory instincts latent
in humanity that very few ever have reason to let loose. However,
I do agree I had forgot to consider Slayer instincts as part of
the package. Even so, being predatory isn't the same as being
evil when your only prey consists of monsters. I think the predatory
instinct is another temptation to the dark side, but not necessarily
rooted in being evil, as predatory instincts can be used for good.
As for Willow and Dark Magic in Season Six, well, that's highly
confusing. There are many schools of thought. Some say that the
dark magic affected Willow's mind and brought her more towards
the dark side. Others say it was merely the temptation of power.
Others say that magic gave Willow full expression of her emotions,
including her mostly repressed dark side. I'm not sure which one
I fall into, personally.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> The Moral Nature of Everything in the Buffyverse
-- slain, 13:25:12 01/06/03 Mon
I definitely agree that power in the Buffyverse is not morally
neutral - which doesn't mean that humans are necessarily absolved
from blame at being corrupted by an evil power, but rather that
they can't be blamed in the same way that someone corrupted by
non-supernatural power would be*. To my mind it oversimplfies
the issue to say that power itself is morally neutral,
and it's human weakness which is the flaw; that's clearly the
case in a 'real world', but BtVS doesn't exist there.
It's true the message of the show is often that humanity corrupts
itself (rather than any outside Devil-like influence), but equally
it can't have main characters who are completely blamed for their
actions under influence of a power. That's how it relates to Willow
(and arguably also Ethan Rayne, though I doubt that was taken
into consideration at the Initiative's 'Camp X-ray') specifically;
while she blames herself completely, she was influenced
by the power itself to a degree; that's why the First Evil/Cassie
is so seductive, because what it says has truth to it.
But I don't think magic is quite a special case; I think
clear parallels have been drawn between Buffy, Faith and Willow's
power, and the power of vampires; not just in 'Buffy vs. Dracula',
FFL and parts of Season 6. The idea that power comes from inner
darkness which, while not necessarily evil, is not morally neutral,
has been around since the beginning. Buffy and Faith's power comes
from a specific source, the First Slayer (or whatever that first
drew her power from), and while the First Slayer isn't either
evil or good, that doesn't mean it lacks a moral nature.
The First Slayer's reminds me of a classical goddess; capable
of imbuing her followers with power, often by divine genetics;
but still behaving much like a human, with the same foibles. Which
sounds like it goes round in circles; Buffy, Faith and other Slayers
are humans with human weakness, and so is the source of their
power. But I think the crucial point is that the First Slayer
is not them; it's an external force which is violent, primal
and not bound by modern morality.
I don't see it as a case of Buffy or Faith being corrupted by
this power, however; they have been influenced by it, but I don't
think the Slayer power is itself corrupting. It's capable of stripping
away some of the modern distinctions Buffy makes between slayable
and unslayable demons (though Faith never made any distinctions).
The reason why Faith went bad was herself; she didn't immerse
herself in the Slayer power, after all, she turned away from it,
involving herself with the Mayor. She used her Slayer power in
much the same way that Angel uses his vampire power; for something
it wasn't intended for.
That's not to say that Slayer power is good, and that she used
it for evil; I think Slayer power doesn't conform to the idea
of 'good' in the sense Buffy, and we, understand it. We'd consider
killing, say, Clem to be an evil act, but the First Slayer (or
Faith, for that matter) wouldn't consider it so, I think.
I think when it's concerned with main characters, the idea that
power is not morally neutral is more explicit, because it allows
the show to explore areas it wouldn't normally be able to, without
making it a show about a load of crazed mass murderers. We can
see that clearly in Season 7, looking at how Spike has made the
transition from someone not entirely sympathetic, to someone who
we're expected to be sympathetic to, if not exactly trusting of.
In the past his motives haven't been linked to any force outside
of himself; but, in a literal way, he's now connected to an evil
which has him in its control. Look at Webster in CwDP, too, the
first morally absolved vampire without a soul; that is, we can
like him and excuse him being evil because he's in the thrall
of his own power, a power which is evil. It's not his fault that
he's evil; he's a vampire.
But that's only main or sympathetic characters; when the show
it making a specific allegorical point about humanity, when it's
doing the metanarrative thing, character definitely aren't 'let
off the hook'. Warren is the supreme example of this; it really
is his fault that he's evil. The same can be said of any
villain in the show, Angel being the notable exception (unless,
that is, we think of Angelus and Angel as being effectively separate
entities). Even Drusilla, who we've seen mentally tortured before
she was turned, isn't sympathetic exactly; that is, as a vampire
we aren't encouraged to feel that she's in the grip of forces
outside of her control; rather she's evil because she enjoys being
evil.
When a character is intended to be sympathetic, the idea that
they've been influenced by their own power is more explicit. But
when they're not, the power itself is a side issue compared to
the point which is made about human weakness and the abuse of
power; rather than power abusing the human.
[> [> Oh yes, totally
evil...we should slay her now.....;) -- Rufus, 22:34:10
01/03/03 Fri
Just one thing I have a list...you know of a few characters I'd
like to do a practice run on first before I take out any slayers.....:):):)
[> [> Was I the only
one who found this hilarous? -- shadowkat, 18:38:00 01/04/03
Sat
I know Zachsmind was playing Devil's Advocate but even if it was
unintentional, this is the best sardonic/satirical takeoff of
the Buffy Bashing posts that I've seen. Go back to the archives
- pick the Beneath You buffy rants and compare what Zach says
to those. LOL! The fact that there is an element of truth in it
makes it even more hilarous. That's satire - you add a little
truth to the mix. Zach managed to do a better Buffy as Monster
analysis than the Buffy bashers have. Good job.
The wonderful thing about Btvs is every character on the show
has a dark and a light side. They all have monsters inside and
behave like ones at times. As do we all.
Xander, Willow, Spike (okay Spike is a monster but you know what
I mean), Dawn, Giles, Anya, Angel....(well Anya and Angel are
too...but whatever)
It's what makes the show fun. Buffy is guilty of being a monster
but no more so than any other character on the show. Heck she
admits it to Webs - "I behaved like a monster last year...the
things I did...to my friends, you'd be shocked.." "I'm
not here to judge you, I'm here to kill you." replies Webs.
Like Webs (whose my pick for favorite monster and one of my all
time fav characters and where the heck have I seen that actor
before? he seems oddly familar) I find it difficult to judge the
Buffster too harshly since I'm not sure I could do much better
in her place.
Xander and Riley on the other hand, now that's another story....:-)
Oh on the whole Spike issue? Watch the rest of this season before
you make any judgements. Methinks that the writers are resolving
that issue rather well. In fact in BY through NLM - we saw Spike
and Buffy come to grips with the negative repercussions of their
relationship and what that relationship involved. (A relationship
that brought out the worst and best in both of them and brought
up all sorts of controversial issues). It's a fascinating journey
- if you are paying attention. And it's far from over. Actually
the S/B story arc is turning out to be my favorite television
character story arc of all time. It's complex, ambiguous, suspensful,
and impossible to predict and filled with difficult and complex
ethical and emotional issues. The twists and turns in their story
alone is keeping me riveted and very happy.
[> [> [> No, seriously:
is Buffy Summers a (potential) monster? -- cjl, 06:26:14
01/05/03 Sun
Personally, I stil think Buffy is the heroine of this piece, but
ZM rightly points out that certain aspects of Buffy's personality
make her a prime candidate for monsterhood: a slight push in a
certain direction at a certain time, and she could be the Biggest
Bad we've ever seen. Her superiority/inferiority complex, her
"I am the Law" pronouncements, her Declaration of War
against a defining aspect of the human condition (i.e., Evil),
indicates a growing sense of hubris that could easily lead her
down the garden path to true monsterhood.
As for the definitions of "villain" and "monster":
when it comes to BtVS, those can be verrrry hazy. Was Dark Willow
a villain or a monster? Who out there thinks Warren Mears was
a villain? Who thinks he was a monster? There are a number of
definitions of "monster" in Webster's; let's check it
out:
Monster (n.): (1a) an animal or plant of abnormal form or structure;
(1b) one who deviates from the normal or acceptable behavior or
character; (2) a threatening force; (3a) an animal of strange
or terrifying shape; (3b) one unusually large of its kind; (4)
something monstrous, esp. a person of unnatural or extremem ugliness,
deformity, wickedness or cruelty.
Creatures like the Gnarl fit under 3a/b, as do most of the standard
oogly booglies of BtVS. But definitions 1b, 2, and 4 are certainly
Warren Mears territory--behavioral deviancy to such an extreme
that he's barely recognizable as human. And for all you born-again
literalists out there, let's remember Joss is King of Metaphor--the
monsters in this series are representations of humanity, after
all...
So--is Buffy Summers our Monster of the Year?
No, of course not, silly.
But she could be.
[> [> [> [> One
Big Reason Not -- Finn Mac Cool, 07:34:14 01/05/03 Sun
A theme of BtVS since the very beginning has been female power.
While other themes (like "high school is hell" or the
"old boyfriend back with a sadistic streak") have been
disposed as the characters have grown beyond them, Joss seems
to be constant in the theme of Buffy being a heroic, empowered
female. Thus I would be very surprised and displeased if he prsented
Buffy being corrupted by her own power and becoming a villain,
because a phobia of women getting too much power and using it
unwisely is a great chauvanistic curse in our society, and it
would be quite unpleasant if Buffy, who will always be partly
that girl who turned around and kicked the monster's ass, confirmed
these fears.
[> [> [> [> [>
Speculation that MIGHT lead to S7 finale spoilage. Please exercise
caution... -- ZachsMind, 13:55:01 01/05/03 Sun
This is more a prediction than a spoilage. However, based on the
direction that this series has gone in season seven, and based
on my observations of Whedon's writing style over the years and
where I think he's going with all this, I hypothesize the following.
This is also based on some spoilage I've picked up along the way,
although the direction I'm going with this is speculation, if
you don't wanna know anything past "Bring On The Night"
please exercise caution in reading the following. Also understand
though that I can be completely wrong and the following may not
in any way actually take place.
Whedon's a lovable ass when it comes to surprises.
I do still believe Buffy has been and sometimes is a monster.
Her powers stem from a monstrous source. Her actions have been
uniquely human, and at times she's not been 100% idealic and heroic.
She's human. She's gonna make mistakes. That's to be expected.
However, I think Joss Whedon's going to devise a plot line that
will almost put Buffy over the edge and make her turn completely
monster, though there will still be room for redemption. She'll
be like Indiana Jones in the last scene of "The Last Crusade"
where the Holy Grail is in his grasp but he's precariously near
falling into a great chasm. Buffy will see the dark side of her
character, and have great incentive to give into it, but at the
last possible moment she'll let it go. She'll look at The First
Evil and she'll tell it NO.
And as any red blooded American gentleman can tell ya: there's
a lot of power in a woman's no. THERE's your female empowerment!
Buffy doesn't have to give into The
Monster Inside for us to see it. Whedon's message will
be expressed, without dismissing the female empowerment
aspects of that message, which are VERY strong in his work with
Buffy. It won't look like a chauvinistic statement about women
and power. It's more a statement about humanity and power and
how it CAN corrupt but only if we let it. I like to think women
are better when it comes to power than men are.
However, he'll also need to show what happens IF that power is
allowed to corrupt. He can't do this with Buffy. The audience
would be in an uproar against it. Still, he does need to show
the error of that corruption. He'll need to illustrate it somehow.
I know from spoilage that the last five episodes will most probably
include our favorite Bad Girl. Faith returns for the latter part
of the season. The First Evil can't turn Buffy to its side. However,
Faith has already crossed that line that slayers cannot cross.
Faith's taken the blood of an innocent human. She's seen the error
of her ways thanks to Angel. Faith's attempted redemption. She's
turned herself in to the police. She's accepted punishment for
that crime and others. Still, sometimes you just can't fight fate.
If I'm right, and Buffy is a monster, that means, Faith is one
too. I anticipate a showdown between the slayers in the season
seven finale that is going to make all Buffy's previous battles
combined pale in comparison. Because Faith is going to do what
Buffy cannot. Faith's gonna look at The First Evil and where Buffy
says no, Faith's gonna say yes. Then Buffy's gonna have to put
Faith down but for good.
Set your VCRs. Nuke your popcorn. It's gonna be the best finale
ever.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Good post - FUTURE casting spoiler only in the above,
but not in my post. -- shadowkat, 14:51:53 01/05/03 Sun
And it's pretty well-known.
Here's the gist of Zach's post without the future casting spoiler:
"do still believe Buffy has been and sometimes is a monster.
Her powers stem from a monstrous source. Her actions have been
uniquely human, and at times she's not been 100% idealic and heroic.
She's human. She's gonna make mistakes. That's to be expected.
However, I think Joss Whedon's going to devise a plot line that
will almost put Buffy over the edge and make her turn completely
monster, though there will still be room for redemption. She'll
be like Indiana Jones in the last scene of "The Last Crusade"
where the Holy Grail is in his grasp but he's precariously near
falling into a great chasm. Buffy will see the dark side of her
character, and have great incentive to give into it, but at the
last possible moment she'll let it go. She'll look at The First
Evil and she'll tell it NO.
And as any red blooded American gentleman can tell ya: there's
a lot of power in a woman's no. THERE's your female empowerment!
Buffy doesn't have to give into The Monster Inside for us to see
it. Whedon's message will be expressed, without dismissing the
female empowerment aspects of that message, which are VERY strong
in his work with Buffy. It won't look like a chauvinistic statement
about women and power. It's more a statement about humanity and
power and how it CAN corrupt but only if we let it. I like to
think women are better when it comes to power than men are. "
This I agree with. I think, as I've said before, that Buffy has
darkness in her, her power comes from a dark source - the same
source as the monsters she fights. They hint at this several times
in the series - with Faith in Bad Girls and later in Graduation
Day. In Restless - in Buffy's dream sequence where she tells the
First Slayer that she is not a killer that is NOT all she is.
Then again with Dracula - who tempts her with his blood and she
resists (very similar scene to the scene with Spike in Sleeper,
which I think is intentional). Then again in Dead Things and Normal
Again.
Buffy knows it's there. She fights against it. Always has.
As do we all! (Let's face it we all have a monster inside us,
so why is it so amazing to see one in our heroine?)
But up until this year - Buffy's monster side has been represented
by another character or shadow: Angel in Seasons 1-2, Faith in
Seasons 3-4, Spike in Seasons 5-6.
Now finally Buffy is without that shadow self...she must face
it in herself - it may be the first evil this round.
Because I think Spike is being taken out of that role.
I think in this respect - Buffy's journey this year may have some
correlation to Frodo's in Lord of the Rings. Or
Dorothy's in Wizard of Oz, or any number of fantasy characters
of myth and legend. It's not so much about right and wrong as
it is power and fighting against the temptation to take it and
use it to make the world better.
Gandalf and Gladerial say it best in Lord of the Rings - Fellowship
of the Ring - when they state they'd take the ring with the best
of intentions to turn the world into a better place and through
that action alone, that arrogance, the ring would bend them to
its will, and they would commit acts of great evil in the attempt
to do good. Willow did that last year when she went after Warren
then attempted to end the World's pain. You can argue she did
it when she brought Buffy back to life. Often the most monsterous/villainous
acts are committed with the best of intentions. What is that old
saying? The road to hell is paved with the best of intentions?
Look at our current political climate? Do any of those world leaders
see themselves as doing something evil? No. They believe that
it is for the greater good. Buffy's statement at the end of BoTN
is in some respects an ironic and chilling one - one made with
little sleep and pain and desperation. It is as chilling as her
statement in Selfless when she goes to kill Anya.
Remember what Willow said last year when Buffy said she didn't
know what a slayer is? "I get it now! It's not about the
strength or the killing - it's about the power."
The same statement is echoed by the First in Lessons.
Just as Dracula echoes Tara's words from Restless in the first
episode of Season 5. "You think you know what you are..where
you're going...you've barely even begun."
The test regarding "power" is taking it and giving it
up.
Letting it go. Not giving into the temptation to use it to make
the world a better place - because who are you or we or I to judge
what that is? It's the temptation Frodo fights every day he carries
the ring of power. The temptation Willow fights every day she
practices magic and it is the temptation Buffy must fight...when
she says she does NOT have a license to kill. Just because she
has "super-strength" and "agility" does not
mean she can take want have or abuse people or things. But it
is a hard temptation to fight. The suspense is partly whether
she can suceed. And with the First Evil egging her on...
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Oh God, I hope not Zach... -- KdS, 15:11:03 01/05/03
Sun
I'd like to see a certain person get some kind of redemption...
[> Holden Webster! Absolutely!!!
-- Sara, who likes to play by the rules, 21:25:59 01/03/03
Fri
How cool is it that pure evil would make such a good psycho-analyst?
Let's face it, he's even better than Lorraine Braco on The Sopranos.
And he was so very, very happy - really made me want to go and
find someone to bite my own little neck.
[> [> I'm with her.
-- HonorH, 21:53:02 01/03/03 Fri
Loved Holden. Am writing up his last night alive currently. Hopefully,
my muse won't abandon me, as they've been doing lately.
[> [> [> I'm with
the ladies. Holden is (MotY) Monster of the Year thus far.
-- cjl, 21:57:41 01/03/03 Fri
Too bad Buffy dusted him. I would have loved to see Holden and
Spike have a snarkoff. They'd spend so much time trying to psych
each other out, we'd need a 2-hour special...
[> [> [> [> Re:
I'm with the ladies. Holden is (MotY) Monster of the Year thus
far. (spoilers to 7.10 BotN) -- slain, 09:38:38 01/04/03
Sat
Holden is definitely up there with Spike, Angel, Dru and Harmony,
as trully great vampires we've seen on the show. However I don't
think of him as a monster so much as a character - literally,
he is a monster, but only by an accident of (un)birth. The way
he fits into the story makes him seem less monsterlike.
I think Gnarl is my favourite MotW-type thing, because he's more
interesting in a psychological way, rather than in "ooh,
look how many horns and fangs it's got!" way. I'm not sure
about the Uber-Vamp as yet, as it seemed a little like a cop-out
when the big bad was so far seeming interestingly non tangible.
Buffy getting beat up by something, while not common, is not entirely
new. However I have a feeling the Uber-Vamp will prove more important
to the story, and might even be a misdirect (we're thinking the
monsters in the story are back to being physical, but really they're
not)
[> [> [> [> [>
I'm torn three ways. . . -- Finn Mac Cool, 09:46:35
01/04/03 Sat
Gnarl was a seriously cool and downright creepy monster. Plus
skin-eating is a definite plus.
Holden Webbster was charming, helpful, insightful, and still managed
to be evil. Gotta love that.
Then there comes the First Evil. Granted, it has an unfair advantage
since it's capable of being several different people/monsters.
Though, it's hard to top the creepiness it gives off as Buffy
or Warren. Plus it delivered the truly awesome last scene of "Lessons".
I'm torn between these three monsters, and they're loving it as
my legs and arms are torn off my body from the strain. Such lovely
blokes.
[> [> [> *Sigh* Poor
Holden, only got to flap his gums, he didn't even get to try his
teeth out....:):):):) -- Rufus, 22:31:39 01/03/03 Fri
[> [> Would agree. My
favorite for two seasons running. -- shadowkat, 18:09:36
01/04/03 Sat
Actually I'd go so far to say Webs is my favorite monster for
Seasons 5-7 so far. And for this year's Ats. Would like to see
more of Webs. The most attractive monster that Buffy has staked
since she sent Angel to hell.
And his psyche help on the Buffster helped clear up soo many questions.
[> [> [> Holden Holden
he's so fine -- ponygirl, 10:43:48 01/06/03 Mon
The great thing about Holden, besides being pretty cute, was that
he was the most well-adjusted character I can recall on either
BtVS or Ats. We've had a lot of interesting villians, but most
of them are so consumed with, well, evil. They let their passions
and obsessions completely overwhelm them. They have weaknesses
and petty concerns that undermine all their grand schemes. The
good guys have their issues too, emotional problems, communication
failures. They can repress their dark sides, and fail to see the
shades of grey around them.
Holden on the other hand springs from grave fully engaged with
the world. He's connected to a larger power, but not so preoccupied
with the big picture that he doesn't stop to try and reconnect
with an old acquaintance. He's not bitter about the past, he wants
to look up and kill old friends but doesn't seem to have any elaborate
revenge fantasies. He's not upset about the twists his life has
taken, merely curious and eager to see what the future will bring.
He makes no apologies for the whole evil thing, but at the same
time isn't judgemental of Buffy's opposing position. Holden's
able to connect emotionally with Buffy but understands that this
connection won't prevent either of them from trying their hardest
to kill the other. He isn't afraid to take advantage of Buffy's
vulnerability, and he admits that as an evil being he enjoys her
pain, but I strongly suspect that he was offering his honest opinion
on her situation and if not trying to help, at least offering
her understanding.
Give that vamp another few decades of unlife, an evil scheme or
two, and I'd bet Holden would have been a force to be reckoned
with.
[> [> Re: Holden Webster,
with Gnarl a close 2nd -- pr10n, 13:08:30 01/06/03 Mon
Aside from his monstery goodness, Holden was a masterful vehicle
for the ME writer-voice without the intrusion of the Espenson/Goddard
boom-shadow. Imagine another show handling seasons of back-story
and exposition with so much panache: "There's nothing wrong
with you... everyone has issues. Grrrr!"
For sheer ugly-nasty, Gnarl wins a powerful 2nd place for eating
poor Willow's tummy. Irk! Great, now I have to do a spell by myself.
Bring on the
Night revisited (spoilers, of course) -- Darby, 22:49:09
01/03/03 Fri
Some more thoughts, from beginning to end...
The first dream visit - Xander not only isn't sweeping right,
he's not even touching the floor.
Joyce: "You can't win against this thing...if you don't rest."
I tend to remember Joyce just saying they couldn't win, but this
puts a bit of a spin on it... But is it really rest as in sleep?
Almost immediately she's telling Buffy to wake up.
Drusilla - she's a bit off. Is this to give us a clue that Giles,
although a bit pessimistic, is too Gilesish to be the First? And
is she wearing an outfit we've ever seen the real Dru in? I found
the bare arms somewhat wrong.
The seal is...resealed. What's the point? What else might be in
there? And why are there four shovels there? And why is Wood also
there with a shovel - after two months of burying Jonathan, was
he going back to cover the seal?
The locator spell - it did find the First in and beyond the whole
map. There may be evil in Willow, but the magic whatever jumped
into her from the map. But she still felt it inside after
- of course, evil is in everybody. And after the trauma, wouldn't
she go to Giles about it later? Maybe that's a scene that happened
that we weren't shown...
In Giles' exposition scene, it's Buffy that decides that the First
intends to end the Slayer line - Giles looks like he doesn't entirely
agree, but says nothing. He might be uncomfortable that Buffy
figured it out, but that makes no sense since it's all based on
the information he gave her.
Giles says that there is little in the records about the First
because it's too old and "rarely shows its true face."
But a concept equivalent to the First exists in many religious
stories - how could he not suspect that events ascribed to Satan
or others wouldn't be the "true face" of the First,
with just a name change?
Giles' reaction to Anya's accusation that he blew up the Council
is too Gilesish to be pseudo-Giles.
Giles: "the First is unlike anything we've faced before"
is very nearly a word-for-word match for how he described the
First Slayer in his Restless song (sorry, OnM, I've been
seeing links too). Buffy knew instinctively that fighting the
First Slayer directly was pointless - when will she get that clue
about this First?
Spike in the pool: yeah, dumb. Drusilla lifting her skirt - just
weird.
Kennedy playing innuendo with Willow - yeah, we scriptreading
geeks know she's nineteen (so how could she still be a proto-Slayer?),
but it's creepy jailbait time to the other 99.99% of the viewers.
The kitchen scene - is that Anya's voice in the background, totally
unintelligible behind the girls? And why? Maybe it's a sound-mixing
mistake.
The Christmas tree lot - are we supposed to accept that it took
Giles and Buffy almost the entire night (minus a fight scene)
to walk there? Cause it's gonna be dawn when she climbs back out.
They later walked back after dawn in time for Buffy to get ready
for work. Also, Giles, out of sight of anyone but tv viewers,
continues to act like Giles (even putting his glasses on) after
Buffy falls into the cave.
The Uber-Vamp - this is apparently not where Spike is, so what's
he doing there? Did he know that Buffy was going to drop in the
way he knew Annabelle was going to be running around that corner?
This is seeming sloppy...
It's been established that vamps get less stakeable with age (see
Kakistos), but why is everyone assuming he'll be able to come
into Buffy's house after them? And wouldn't the Slayers-in-Training
know that they were safe, at least from uninvited vamps?
Buffy to proto-Slayers: "Be back before sunset." More
echoes of Restless?
Buffy's cubicle - in addition to the little tree, what are all
the pictures? Is that Dawn as a toddler? Who's the boy on the
cube on her desk?
More Spike and "Dru" - interesting that her game has
no "bothersome winning part." How similar is Spike's
condition to when Buffy beat him in Dead Things? How similar
is this to Spike's sacrifice under Glory's attention? And how
could all the geek writers have had Dru call him "Daddy"
when they and we know she called Angel that? And what's that weird
device with the keypad appearance in the cave?
Next Joyce appearance - How do we get from the school bathroom
(and Buffy's there, they used a school hallway establishing shot)
to the Summer's house bathroom? Did she not go to the bathroom
except in her dream at her desk (don't think about that too much...)
Does she really have a coat with velcro sleeve slits? Joyce talks
about Buffy needing to heal, but Buff's wounds are pretty healed
- is this another sort of healing? It also looks like the "sun
comes up - except lately in L.A." line may have been filmed
- the cut is there if you look for it. The rest of Joyce's speech
is reminiscent of her lines from Gingerbread, when Buffy
realized that maybe she couldn't win the war, that doing her job
was more about the ever-ongoing fight, little victories. "No
one can stop Nature, not even -" Was she going to say "You,"
or something less obvious?
Night falls at the Summers house - the over-under changes of Buffy's
scarf drive me nuts. Why is no one trying to figure out why
it seems so important for the First to neutralize Willow - at
least Giles should be addressing that part of the situation, although
you'd think Will and Buffy would consider it too. And there's
yet another reference to how Buffy's friends are pressuring her,
like that's the only reason she does things - what's up with that?
The whole Annabelle thing works worse every time I see it. No
set-up for her running, no explanation for why she's suddenly
in the warehouse district, or how the Uber-Vamp is waiting for
her, or how Buffy finds her, or why after a discussion about the
need for weapons Buffy doesn't bring any. And how do the other
Scoobs find her later in the rubble (after abandoning Dawn and
the others at the house??).
The second Big Fight - anyone else referencing The Thing
(original) when U-V walked into the building along the long metal
grate? Hmmm, just me. And the Big Question - why's the U-V / FE
want Buffy broken but not dead? So that she can't see the futility
of the course she's choosing?
The last Spike - "Dru" scene - "Because she does."
This is All About Buffy and her effect on the Cosmos: Angel, then
Spike.
Buffy's raise-the-rabble speech. "Can't pretend it's not
the end 'cause it is." Why? Because Slayers are dying and
nasty vamps are risen? As apocalypses go, this one is pretty focused,
and yet Buffy is more hopeless than almost any other time. So
how long before she wises up, and how frustrated are we going
to be watching it?
Anyway, thought I'd trot out some of these possible clues and
inconsistencies for discussion before we get another episode.
- Darby, typing from under a snowbank.
[> Re: Dru's wardrobe (costuming
spoilers for Ss2 of both BtVS & AtS) -- Dead Soul, 01:26:21
01/04/03 Sat
And is she wearing an outfit we've ever seen the real Dru in?
I found the bare arms somewhat wrong.
Not that this means anything, but she wore sleeveless dresses/tops
quite a bit in the latter half of Season 2 after she was healed.
Perhaps in AtS, too; I'd have to go back and check. Although I
do wish she wouldn't wear them - they're not very becoming on
her.
But much in your post to think about and check the next time I
rewatch BotN. Thank you.
This pointless aside brought to your courtesty of:
Dead (but still the consumate fashion victim) Soul
[> [> More on 'Dru' (BotN
spoilers) -- Doriander, 10:05:29 01/04/03 Sat
Agree, she looks different. Her arms look more muscular now (JL
is a work out freak turns out).
Spike in the pool: yeah, dumb. Drusilla lifting her skirt -
just weird.
ROTFLMAO on the skirt lifting. Reminded me so much of Wes is StB.
The whole "daddy" thing. Perhaps it's my fanged four
drenched brain, but it made perfect sense to me.
shooting script excerpt:
SPIKE
You're not Drusilla.
DRUSILLA/FIRST
(giggles)
I'm really not.
SPIKE
She was crazier 'n you.
DRUSILLA/FIRST
(hurt)
Dad-dy. No kicking.
It's almost Christmas Day today
and you've gone spoiling it.
I've been so very good all year...
She leans in, lips close to his.
DRUSILLA/FIRST
(cont'd)
But I'll be bad if you like.
The SS doesn't say much so I would have to credit the actors for
my interpretation. JL played "hurt" as if she's play-acting
hurt, akin to Xander's "::Gasp!:: You slash me with your
words!" and more currently, Fake Cassie's "Oh! Baby,
you left such a big whole! It hurts so bad!" In S2's Halloween,
Spike playfully implored Dru to "talk to Daddy". Let's
assume that back in day, these two crazy kids did engage in some
kinky play acting (and really in retrospect their relationship
seemed like a long game of pretend play). On one level we could
say it's their own brand of fun. On another it's Spike conceding
to being Daddy's proxy. That oughta burn ::sigh:: Love's bitch.
So in the context of the above scene, it's on one level Fake Dru's
throwback to the old days ::burn:: On another, and my immediate
impression of the whole thing, it played out as a sarcastic comeback.
Fake Dru's quirky way of saying "Look who's talking, Angel
wannabe" in response to the now souled Spike's calling
the First a Dru imitator. And the way JM played it (annoyed, eye
roll, pissed. Hee! Burn.), Spike got the taunt. Going back to
that bit in Halloween, note that it's Spike who said it and not
Dru. Say the actual Dru indeed only reserved the title for Angel,
then Fake Dru's daddy-ing just twists the knife further in. "But
I'll be bad if you like" was in my mind a pointed comment
about Spike reinventing himself to suit his lady love, who unfortunately
happens to always be someone Angel/Angelus/Daddy had first ::burn::
Fake Dru rubs in the inescapable fact that he's always had taken
cues from his grandsire, he's always lived in the shadow of his
grandsire, thus a mere shadow of his grandsire ::burn:: Great
morale booster, that.
[> Re: Bring on the Night
revisited (spoilers, of course) -- luvthistle1, 03:52:09
01/04/03 Sat
Joyce -How and why would Joyce no anything about the first? which
Joyce was real the one that visit Dawn or the one that visit Buffy?
I think neither were real. because , she didn't say anything they
could really use. If it was Joyce that visit Dawn , wouldn't she
had told Dawn why buffy wouldn't chose her? if it was the real
Joyce that visit Buffy would she had showed concern for Dawn as
well , or at least mention her? after all Dawn is the youngest.
The locator spell - when Willow did a spell to locate Xander and
Buffy , it said they didn't exist, yet she didn't do another one
to make sure it was her or that they really didn't exist . she
soul have ask Anya (she use to be a witch before becoming a vengeances
demon) to do the spell over and than compare notes. she should
have mention that to Buffy.
Giles - "the First is unlike anything we've faced before
speech. Did Giles become forgetful? did he not remember that they
face the first evil back when Angel return in season 4 "Amends".
well, we know Angel and Spike were/are both dead, and both receive
a soul. so, that was why the first evil were visiting them. but
suppose they all are dead? think about it, suppose Willow spell
did not work, or reverse, and instead of bring buffy back, brought
them all into the dimension of the dead. Giles would not be able
to touch them, but they would be able to touch Giles. (the first
touch Spike (as Dru).
Kennedy - how did she know Willow was gay? I doubt that Giles
would have time to mention that when he was trying to find a place
to keep them safe.i doubt if Giles would mention anyone's personal
life., and if he did, wouldn't he had mention Tara? she seems
a lttle pushy, and it's way too soon.
The whole Annabelle thing:
she seem so together. what made her run, and where was she running
to?
Ubervamp- the ubervamp didn't kill buffy because the slayer not
in order. he suppose to kill the "sits" first, than
the slayers I suppose.
Time - I think that time might be a little off. In "same
time, same place" willow called Giles and was told that he
was in a meeting with the council, yet when Buffy called she got
through, and there was no mention of the council. there was something
wrong with the time , in stsp. but it might not only be that time.
everything seem off.
[> [> Kennedy didn't
have to know -- Finn Mac Cool, 09:30:29 01/04/03 Sat
Actually, I don't think Kennedy did know Willow was gay. I think
she was just saying that since there were too many people and
so few places to sleep, they'd have to be in the same bed.
And, even if Kennedy meant the sleeping arrangements things as
innuendo, she did stand a one out of ten chance of being right,
after all.
Or maybe Giles mentioned the whole Willow going crazy on magic
when her girlfriend got killed thing.
[> [> [> Re: Kennedy
didn't have to know -- Darby, 10:16:30 01/04/03 Sat
I vote for the last, or some other gossip-based thing. Those Slayerettes
do talk, after all, and you can't shut a Watcher up!
[> [> [> [> Re:
Kennedy didn't have to know -- slain, 13:27:17 01/04/03
Sat
I'm inclined to believe it's more 'gaydar' (remembering a line
from Six Feet Under), because I'm not sure if any gossip about
Willow last year would exactly have made anyone think she was
someone who was either ready, or entirely safe, to date. But of
course if Kennedy is fully aware of this it would add credence
to my thoughts that she's a new Faith figure, with a danger-loving
streak. Which might not exactly bode well for the future. Oh well.
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: Kennedy didn't have to know -- deeva, 15:01:52 01/04/03
Sat
I'm going with the "gaydar" thing, too. Sometimes it's
just something that you sese or know about another person.
[> Re: Bring on the Night
revisited (spoilers, of course) -- Silky, 07:20:06 01/04/03
Sat
I wondered also why both times Buffy went after the Uber-Vamp
she carried no weapons (other than the stake). It didn't make
sense. Neither did Annabelle bolting, esp. since she was the one
who spoke of being safe in the slayer's home.
And the time of the epiosdes is off - apparently. But, remember
Spike's comment to Buffy that time had been all wonky since his
return to Sunnydale after getting his soul back? I think the time/date
stamp at the beginning of CWDP is somehow important. Has Buffy
been dreaming ever since?? Is the First playing with all their
minds and time as well? It will be interesting to see if another,
later episode has a time/date reference. I don't think it took
Principal Wood 3 weeks to bury Jonathan. Or Andrew and Warren
3 weeks to go for more blood.
I thought Joyce telling Buffy to wake up meant that Buffy needed
to see something obvious that she isn't seeing.
I think we are supposed to be confused. Those evil writers probably
enjoy driving us nuts...
[> [> Time and Place
-- Valheru, 17:44:17 01/04/03 Sat
Anyone else expecting the First to pull a Fallen, morph
into John Goodman and sing "Time is On My Side?" Sweet
vs. Lorne, Round 21: A New Opponent!
At first, I thought the time discrepancies were stupid writing
mistakes (and they still could be), but it would have to be gross
stupidity by now. "CWDP" couldn't have been more than
a week ago, so unless the Buffyverse abandoned the Julian calendar,
it can't be Christmas there. There are too many "time markers"
for several weeks to have passed unnoticed. The wonkiness must
be intentional.
In addition to time troubles, Buffy is having some strange reality
shifts with her dreams. The first Joyce encounter is a tricky
one. When did reality end and Buffy's dream begin? Did Buffy see
Dawn slapping Andrew, but only speak to her in the dream? Or does
Buffy fall asleep before that? There's a possibility that none
of the scene was real, that it was all Buffy's dream, from Xander's
time loop theory to Joyce--in other words, that the first "real"
moment was Xander waking Buffy. If that's the case, given Buffy's
prophecy-dream accuracy, everything said in that first scene could
be very important. For example, both "Xander" and "Dawn"
mention problems in time: Xander with the mummy-hand-time-loop
idea, and he and Dawn with Andrew's unusually-long unconsciousness.
The second Joyce encounter seems subtly different than the first
one. I can't really explain, but the first one seemed like Buffy's
old prophecy dreams, while the second played more like "Restless."
The shifts are more jarring this time, with Buffy not only being
displaced in reality, but also in location. On first watching,
I figured Buffy's trip to the school restroom a part of the dream,
but what if it wasn't? What if Buffy really did go to the school
bathroom, but not remember going back to her cubicle or seeing
a student? Of course, that sets up the possibility that whole
portions of this season are like Buffy's "blackouts"
during Warren's time-accelaration in "Life Serial,"
which would be enormously confusing, but it would explain both
the time and space discrepancies.
Lastly, there's a very practical reason behind an intentional
time/space shift: Faith. Remember, Eliza's supposed to make a
3 episode appearance on AtS before she appears on BtVS. BtVS's
schedule is running ahead of AtS's, making it difficult to do
this. And while BtVS's schedule is further ahead, AtS's actual
timeline will probably overtake it quickly. So ME has to coordinate
the timeline with the schedule. Enter time wackiness. Then the
First will shift space, switching the WB Universe with the UPN
Universe in order for Faith to cross over without a legal battle
(and if a legal dispute does come up, UPN will be represented
by Wolfram and Hart while the WB gets Drusally McBeal).
[> Hey, this looks like
Writer's Journal! -- Cactus Watcher, 07:41:53 01/04/03
Sat
Glad to see I'm not the only one who thinks like that.
I haven't had too much to say about anything on Buffy this year
because it's all so surreal. It's kind of the year of 'Salvador
Dali' Buffy. All the familiar pieces are there, but nothing is
quite right. If I personally had to write the rest of the season
without knowing Joss' plans I'd go with OnM's idea of multiple
dimensions of reality. Blurring reality is always tricky. I've
seen too many movies like the original Solaris, in which the plot
was just plan dull except for the blurring of reality. Other,
more artsy, movies blurr reality so much nobody can figure out
what the hell is going on at all. (And it's always a hoot to listen
to B.S. artists try to make something of those movies.) But, I'm
just letting the Buffy story carry me along, and I'll trust it
will make some sense at the end.
Re: Annabelle - Actually this charcter, and her demise didn't
bother me much. She was the one who wanted to stay in the house
and let Buffy protect her while the other two wanted to go out
and fight. We all know that the main idea behind the Buffy story
was to break the helpless-blonde-girl movie stereotype; the one
where the girl is slways out of her mind with fear, always makes
exactly the wrong choices and always walks exactly down the wrong
street. Annabelle is that girl. She wouldn't have made much of
a Slayer, would she? Contrasting her with the other girls is just
standard writing procedure.
[> [> Annabelle rennt
-- Snuffynelson, 10:35:56 01/04/03 Sat
Regarding Annabelle's mad dash for freedom. It struck me as wrong
at first, too, but after watching it again, I could see that they
tried to signpost it a little.
She's a pre-Slayer in the key of Kendre. She represents book-learnin'.
She is the slayer-in-training who dutifully carries the Watcher's
Council books--and she's the S-I-T who takes notes when Giles
or Buffy exposits. Throughout the first part of the episode she
defers completely to her authority figures: Giles and then Buffy.
She upbraids Molly and Kennedy three times when they interrupt
or doubt Giles or Buffy. ("Shhh Molly, Mr Giles doesn't need
us prattling on." "Kennedy!" in response to Kennedy
wanting to hide on the other side of the globe, etc) She trusts
them completely.
She begins to waver when Buffy and Giles return from meeting the
uber-vamp the first time. She takes notes on the Urkan-whatever,
but then asks "um...did you Slay it?" w/ a wistful/hopeful
look on her face. When Buffy says no--when the authority figure
admits failure, this is when Annabelle starts to "run."
We see the SITs next in the scene just before sunset, when the
scoobies are boarding up the house and joking in the face of death.
She looks around nervously and fidgets w/ her hands. She still
toes the party line: "We'll be armed when the Slayer feels
we're ready." "We're with the Slayer, safe as houses"
"Do you see the house we're in?" One more shot of Annabelle
nervously looking around. She then says, "It'll come straight
for us, won't it?" Annabelle asks questions not for answers,
but for reassurance. She receives none, either time. She reaches
for the cross around her neck, reverting to another authority.
And so she runs--panicky, still clutching her cross. The final
authority fails her too, in the end, falling to the ground rather
than having any effect at all on the uber-vamp.
I think if ME had had the luxury of drawing out this progression
over two or three episodes, it wouldn't feel so jarring. But the
progression is there. In a situation where there are no solid
facts and where she perceives her authority figures as failing,
her world crumbles and down she goes. Ironically, i think if she
had been able to hear Buffy's speech at the end, she'd have gotten
what she needed.
[> [> [> Re: Annabelle
rennt -- slain, 13:20:39 01/04/03 Sat
Of course, it's always possible that once M.E. had realised how
trully appaling her accent was, they realised they had to get
rid of her sooner than expected. But that's just my theory.
[> [> [> [> And
while I'm obsessing... -- slain, 09:36:41 01/05/03 Sun
Some brief research tells me that all three actresses are, yes,
American; which unfortunately spoils my theory that the actress
playing Anabelle was either Welsh or Australian. Which is how
she sounded to me.
[> [> [> Kendra and
Annabelle -- HonorH, 17:23:59 01/04/03 Sat
I had exactly the same thought. This girl had a ramrod jammed
firmly down her spine and absolutely no ability to adjust to new
circumstances. Kennedy apparently saw what the Bringers did to
her Watcher; I doubt Annabelle did, because I think that would've
caused her to snap sooner. As it was, I think the above theory
is quite correct. Simply put, Annabelle couldn't deal with the
tension, so she ran. Wouldn't be the first person to do the stupidest
thing possible because she lost her nerve.
Then again, the accent theory could very well be correct. It was
bad!
[> [> [> Another theory
on why Annabelle ran -- HonorH, 18:51:15 01/05/03 Sun
This time in the form of fanfic. Jeanny just posted this, and
I thought it as good a theory as any, and better than a lot:
Not
the Girl You Think You Are
[> Big Restless connection
(spoilers, of course) -- Darby, 10:15:04 01/04/03 Sat
Because it's all connected, you know...
Above, I noted the resemblence between Giles' line and a line
he sings in Restless. But, while shoveling and snowblowing,
I remembered another line from his "song": The spell
we cast with Buffy must have released some primal evil, that's
come back seeking... I'm not sure what. This was the First
Slayer, invoked in (wait for it...) Primeval. And what's
a synonym for Prime or Primal? First.
There is a definite connection between the Slayer power and the
First Evil (I seem to remember having a theory on that, but it's
not really fresh right now).
- Darby, who has been hearing that song in his head like a commercial
jingle for days now.
[> Re: Bring on the Night
revisited (spoilers, of course) -- Snow White, 17:50:05
01/04/03 Sat
>>why it seems so important for the First to neutralize
Willow
maybe its knocking out support struts?
and/or maybe Willow's like a child whose abilities outstrip its
powers of application? But which (abilities and powers of application)
are surfacable in the conditions approaching?
[> [> Agree w/ Snow White.....
-- Briar Rose, 23:54:05 01/04/03 Sat
Taking the script dialog seriously and without innuendo or misguidance
or any other of the wonderful layers ME writers are so flipping
good at...
The one overall message thus far is that Buffy can't kill the
FE in the usual way. It's going to take bigger guns and more primal
powers than Slayer versus FE. Or even more than Buffy could ever
conjure up on her own.... Like in Primevil.
Hence, Willow and the rest of the Witch types are going to be
needed to help the Slayer. By neutralizing her now through self
doubt and attacks? The FE wears down that avenue of support. And
Giles is also a danger in that respect. It is possible (my own
spec and probably really wildly so....) that Giles is not the
FE, nor dead, nor himself_himself entirely. He could very well
be a physical, thoroughly realized energy manifestation sent by
the Coven.
And if so - it would explain a lot of the weirdness about Giles
right now. Teleportation would sheild him physically and also
his inner energy - while allowing him to corporeally protect the
SITS and the Scoobies at the same time.
This doesn't bode well for Anya and Dawn either if magick is one
of the required tools to kill the First.
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