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Some thoughts on Season 1 (New Year's Slay Marathon and some Season 7 spoilers) -- Finn Mac Cool, 18:29:52 01/02/03 Thu

First, let me state that Season 1 is not my favorite season of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. On my list of favorite seasons it comes in 3rd (1st place is a tie between Seasons 3 and 5, 2nd place is Season 2, and 4th place is Seasons 4 and 6). Several of the episodes were of noticeable bad quality compared to those made later in the show's run, and there were quite a few moments that made me cringe because I knew they confirmed everything that people held against the show. Despite that, though, after watching the New Year's Slay Marathon yesterday, I've realized that Season 1 does have this charm over me, and I've been trying to figure out what it is.

Maybe the appeal is the simplicity. Back then there was a love quadrangle, true, but the relationships didn't have as much angst and issues boiling under the surface as they have more recently. Also, everyone except for Angel (who wasn't even a main character at that point) was human and had always been human and had never gone over to the dark side. It can be nice not to have to go back and forth thinking about these things every episode.

Then, while I find the way ME has done the most recent run of episodes in Season 7 to be riveting, as I found the end of Seasons 5 and 6, where every episode is one day after another and we see the Scoobies coping with a whole damn lot in a short span of time, it can also be nice to sit back and watch an episode as a self-contained story. Even the recent, non-arc episodes have things that carry over into the next one again and again. I love this, I really do, but sometimes it is nice to sit back and know that you're getting a whole story in one spoonful. Maybe that's the Season 1 appeal.

Or it could be because I'm a huge fan of vampires, and its nice to see them be really scary and a serious threat throughout an episode.

And I can't deny that I do find Giant Praying Mantises, Possessed Dummies, and Ignored/Invisible Girls more interesting than simply pulling out a new variety of demon (unless its a really cool demon, like Gnarl).

But I think I've got it figured out, why Season 1, despite its faults, has something later seasons lacked: the inexperiance within the Scooby Gang. Currently, research of monsters is an organized in easy process using databases and quick looks through volumes of lore that they seem to know all too well. Everyone is running up a lot of battle time and quite a few demons dead at their hands. And, when Buffy goes into battle, she practically swaggers. As Spike said in "Fool For Love": "The problem with you, Summers, is that you've gotten so good you've started to think you're immortal".

Meanwhile, in Season 1, the Gang often seems desperate to find any information about their latest threat. When put face to face with a vampire or even a minor demon, Xander and Willow are pretty much immobilized, and even Giles can do little more than ward them off with a cross or holy water. And, when Buffy fights her latest enemy, you can really feel her desperation and fear. She's much less confident than she would later become and you fear for her safety even when facing a newly risen vampire. I think that's what the later episodes lack (although its not really the writers' fault; it's just the consequence of her getting more experience): Buffy's gotten so good at being the Vampire Slayer that it takes a lot for her to be worried about a monster, and thus it takes a lot to make us worried about her. Because of this, Season 1 will always have a quality that boosts it up in my estimation.

(On another note, Season 7 has been particularly good about all this: they make sure to give mention to how strong Ronnie the worm demon must be, make Gnarl totally creepy, and even let Anya's Spider-Demon and the Uber-Vamp land some very visible and messy wounds on her. Dare I repeat what myself and so many other people have said before: this is shaping up to be the best season ever).

[> Season One - Actually my favorite -- Sara, 19:25:40 01/02/03 Thu

I think you've really hit on the appeal for season one. It hit the horror aspect of the show very effectively, something I always enjoy, but even more importantly the relationships were very satisfying. There's a real sweetness to the show, the characters genuinely like each other and enjoy each other's company, so it's easy to enjoy them interacting. All the darkness and complexity does make things very interesting as the show progressed, but there is much to be said for simplicity and real affection between characters.

Sara, voting for a let's all be happy and stake the bad guys kind of outlook

[> Converting Buffy Virgins -- tomfool, 21:05:12 01/02/03 Thu

Finn, agree with your review of S1, although I would rate it a bit lower in the season hierarchy. Kind of off topic, but related to the discussion of S1:

Recently I've been trying to convert a few new people to the merits of BtVS. After explaining what a great show it is, most of the uninitiated are at least mildly intrigued - enough so anyway to give it a chance. Thinking that the best place to start is the beginning, I've just handed them the Season 1 DVDs and let them have at it. But a funny thing happens on the path to fanaticism. They start off ok with the pilot, but they get bogged down in the middle run of the season. They think it's 'ok' but they think I'm a little nuts for raving about how deep and multi-layered the show is. And face it, as charming as S1 is, the show gets stronger as it goes along. So I find myself making apologies for S1 and saying, ok, just make it through S1 and S2 is when it really gets good. Then, after the excellent WWWB, they get into the weakest part of S2 with lots of monster of the weeks and they really think I'm doing a whole lotta drugs. This has happened to varying degrees three times now.

So here's my new strategy for Buffy virgins: Give them an edited 18-episode immersion program of S1 and S2. This is just over half the episodes and sticks to the high points and essentials for continuity. If they get hooked, fine. They can go back and visit the missing eps. If not, well, they're probably not going to be interested anyway. Since I didn't really start watching until S6, I never had the experience of watching new S1 eps without knowing what would happen down the road. The first time I watched S1, it was as a confirmed fanatic and the eps had a certain nostalgic feel, even though I'd never seen them before. Though I have extreme affection for virtually every episode from S1/S2, I now realize that the full-on chronological marathon may be counter productive. That being said, here's my selection of the top/essential episodes from S1/S2:

1.1/2 Welcome to the Hellmouth/Harvest
1.6 The Pack
1.7 Angel
1.12 Prophesy Girl
2.1 When She Was Bad
2.3 School Hard
2.6 Halloween
2.7 Lie To Me
2.9/2.10 What's My Line 1& 2
2.13 Surprise
2.14 Innocence
2.15 Phases
2.16 Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered
2.17 Passion
2.21/2.21 Becoming 1 & 2

Any comments on the strategy? Edits to the list? Do you think it would be good to throw in a few of the later classics (Hush, Body, OMWF) as teasers?

[> [> Re: Converting Buffy Haters -- Arethusa, 21:36:51 01/02/03 Thu

How would you guys try to convince someone who hates BtVS and AtS becuse he thinks it's immoral and evil to watch the show? He thinks portraying witchcraft will drag a person to the Dark Side, monsters and torture or gory scences are mentally corrupting, and that it's an adolescent sick fantasy show, that shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as literature.

[> [> [> Re: Converting Buffy Haters -- Dan The Man, 22:03:04 01/02/03 Thu

That's a tough one. You sound like you are describing some who is afraid of ideas. One of the things that is so wonderful about BtVS and AtS is that unlike most television shows they are interested in exploring ideas, particularly ones that controversial. One strategy that might be helpful in your arguement is to find out what he considers to be "literature". Then you can try to show how BtVS illustrates some of the same qualities as other things that the person enjoys. Also, one episode that is great to demonstrate that BtVS has a lot of thought behind is Restless. The first-time viewer won't understand much of it, but it should be very clear to them that BtVS is a show with symbolic content and depth.

Hope that helps,

Dan The Man

By the way, I used a similar list of episode to convert one of my friends. I didn't include 1.6 The Pack, but did include 2.8 Dark Age and 2.19 I Only Have Eyes For You. Now, my friend is fairly addicted to the show. So, that is one success story.

[> [> [> Body -- tomfool, 22:23:12 01/02/03 Thu

Like Dan said, it sounds like you're talking about someone who's pretty closed minded and afraid of ideas. I would show them The Body. Light on the monsters and kung-fu and heavy on the drama. If they don't see some redeeming value in that episode, then they're probably not Buffy compatible.

[> [> [> Sounds fairly hopeless. -- HonorH, 23:01:55 01/02/03 Thu

I know quite a few people who're the same way. You could mention that a writer at "Christianity Today" has given the show a tentative thumbs-up, and I've also heard from several other Christian quarters that the show's worth watching, but hey--not everyone can be converted, as we Christians well know. ;-)

To make you feel better, after the holiday season, we invariably get returns of "Lord of the Rings" and even the Narnia Chronicles at Barnes & Noble from "Christian" parents afraid fantasy will corrupt their children. Head, meet wall.

[> [> [> [> *L HonorH, I'lll save my rant against Anti-Potters, but you pretty much nailed the core o' it. -- Briar Rose, 01:07:39 01/03/03 Fri

[> [> [> [> total agreement - some people are just nuts -- Helen, 01:39:09 01/03/03 Fri

I consider myself to be a Christian, even make it church once in a whiled Narnia chronicles, Harry Potter and Buffy are pretty much my favourite things. Harry Potter, especially the last one, is now one of my comfort books that I dive into for a few pages, just to make myself smile.

I too, cannot understand how those books could be considerd corruptive (or Buffy come to that, but naked Spike could corrupt me, oh yes).

[> [> [> [> The Chronicles of Narnia?!?!?! Geez... -- Random, 13:26:39 01/03/03 Fri

...the Chronicles of Narnia take about a half-a-glance to realize that they are Christian allegory!!! I mean, C.S. Lewis was one of the premiere Christian apologists of the twentieth centery. He wrote a half-dozen of the best-selling (still!) works of Christian literature in modern times -- the Narnia Chronicles, Mere Christianity, The Screwtape Letters, the Perelandra series, and his autobiography, Surprised by Joy. Not being a Christian myself, I nevertheless have been impressed by some of his apologetics, and have loved The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe since I was a wee one. (And Tolkien was a confirmed Christian and wrote his works in a terribly-Catholic spirit.) How do critics of fantasy expect anyone to take them seriously when they espouse such inanities? Joss may be atheist, but BtVS is certainly not a show that atheists and amoralists would find particularly validating for their belief systems. ~Random, whose real name was taken from The Lord of the Rings because my father was an absolute fanatic about Middle-earth (and hooked me on the mythos from the moment I learned to read.)

[> [> [> [> [> Gee, now I'm hoping your real name isn't Frodo! -- dub ;o), 14:28:27 01/03/03 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> [> Nope. It's not one of the nine companions, or immediate kin or ilk.... (NT) -- Random, 14:42:24 01/03/03 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Too bad. Because Legolas is the coolest name ever! ;o) -- Rob, 08:25:22 01/04/03 Sat

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Actually, I would've gone with'Sauron' or'Fangorn', but... -- Random, 11:04:54 01/04/03 Sat

...I'm not complaining. My name makes for a decent conversation piece when I first meet someone and explain where it came from. Now I'm planning on what to name my own first-born...if and when he/she is born. Gotta find a good mother, dontchaknow? Right now, Legolas, Finwe, or Faramir sound reasonable for a boy, and Arwen, Laurelin, or Eowyn for a girl. But I'm open to other ideas....sigh, poor kid....

[> [> [> [> [> Re: The Chronicles of Narnia?!?!?! Geez... -- MaeveRigan, 10:54:27 01/04/03 Sat

Unfortunately, all too many Christians, though very good-hearted people in many ways, are extremely literal-minded. Literate, but not very literary. "Imagination is a dangerous thing" is their motto. Or think Anya at her most straightforward; as Xander says, "You are attractive and have many good qualities." They simply can't see certain types of metaphors for the life of them. It's a kind of mental color-blindness.

I was very fortunate to grow up in a family that was both Christian and literary, and encouraged imagination. Otherwise, I too would probably be have been a "very angry atheist." At least for a while.

My father, a missionary, is completely uninterested in Buffy, but will defend to the death my right to enjoy it. (My parents never told me what not to read, but as children my siblings and I were forbidden to watch TV soap operas or the Three Stooges.)

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: The Chronicles of Narnia?!?!?! Geez... -- Random, 11:23:30 01/04/03 Sat

As an agnostic, I can still appreciate the values and characters of the Christians that I've had the privilege to be acquainted with. They make me grind my teeth, sometimes, but they are people worth knowing, and generally people you can count on to do well by you, if not actually hang out at the bar with you. It was sad, actually, when I met the one confirmed Buffy-phobic I've ever encountered. She was raised in -- of all things -- the Catholic church...an institution not without a rather substantial body of myth and metaphysics. Yet she examined me like a budding Aleister Crowley when I casually mentioned that I never miss BtVS under any avertable circumstances. I pointed out to her that it was an excellently-written show and she noted (verbatim) that "most art was just an excuse to be immoral and having a ready-made excuse to justify it because people think art is sacred." Well, at least she called it "art," a word I hadn't even bothered to bring up prior to her declaration.
Other than her, though, I have rarely met in person a Christian who was so fanatically close-minded as to be utterly distasteful. I read about them in papers, but it's like reading a bestiary. They may exist, but only in the savage wilderness outside of my immediate universe, which admittedly only compasses a limited space and number of people, most of whom are my friends because we get along and don't have extremely major philosophical differences. Though now that you mention it (I never really thought about it before) most of the Christians I've known could be classified as being literate and intelligent but not overly literary.

[> [> [> Arethusa.... I doubt you can. As Dan said, sometimes the problem is beyond help. -- Briar Rose, 01:05:38 01/03/03 Fri

[> [> [> Monsters, torture, gore....and literature -- Rahael, 07:19:36 01/03/03 Fri

Well, a lot of great literature ain't all that wholesome, especially if you look at the lives of the authors.

Furthermore, witches and monsters have turned up in rather a lot of great literature. My first taste of fantasy writing was Russian short stories in a wonderful book, "19th C Gothic Tales" - Pushkin, Lermentov, Tolstoy - they've all written stories featuring dark forces, witchcraft etc.

A lot of great European literature is about moral corruption. Is about the dark underbelly. These things exist in our cultural imaginations. The devil turns up in The Brothers Karamazov. Dr Faustus. Gore and monsters populate Greek myth, plus you know, rape and bestiality and what not!!

So by this estimation, a lot of great literature wouldn't qualify either!

I have to say that the most frightening film I've ever watched was a piece of Christian propaganda they showed at my school after class. My grandfather was late picking me up. It was all about the day of judgement and very apocalyptic, and the promise of bad things to all who weren't 'good' Christians. Since I was a Christian and the kind who took the world pretty seriously (and the world I was living in was pretty apocalyptic) that film gave me the creeps. For years. It led to my eventual disenchantment with a lot of my fellow congregationalists (in the metaphorical sense).

Now that's what I call the dark side. And it was pretty mentally corrupting. In the sense that I looked out into my world, where the heavens rained down with death, and the air was alive with bullets, and I saw an uncaring, unfeeling God who had abandoned me.

I'd call Buffy, a show which, if I'd been lucky to have seen it then, would have given me the courage to keep on living within a dangerous world, and let me know that I was still powerful. That compassion and love and goodness was still available to me. That the world was still beautiful, even if it was on top of the hellmouth. That the fact that you faced these dangers with everyone you loved, counted for something. And even if you faced them alone, you still had yourself.

Frankly, I'm a little puzzled at those who get obssessed by the dangers that the occult presents to the world. There's so much in the world to fight for, to care about, so many injustices. Worry ing about the 'dark' side seems to me like just another expression of internal unease projected onto the world. Just my opinion. No wish to give offense to anyone!

[> [> [> [> Re: Monsters, torture, gore....and literature -- Arethusa, 07:41:32 01/03/03 Fri

Worry ing about the 'dark' side seems to me like just another expression of internal unease projected onto the world.

That's very interesting, and I think accurate. The greater the internal fears, the smaller some people try to make their world-I've done that myself at times. I don't know if I'd be able to change the mind of someone who thinks anything fictional is a waste of time, and one can only learn from real life experiences.
I guess I'll just print out those articles that interviewed sympathetic clergy about the show. Thanks to everyone for the help.

[> [> [> [> [> In all honesty if you want sex, gore and horror.... -- Briar Rose, 16:53:49 01/03/03 Fri

read the ENTIRE Bible. Not just the few selected verses most read.

When you read the Old Testament as stated, the God of the Bible is no different than any tainted wrath that that the Church espouses us Unholy Witches alledgedly call on to smote and smite anyone that doesn't agree with us.*L

The Native Americans had a good point when they understood the Christian Church as being based on a War God that honored those who produced blood shed and death in his name. They took the Christ on the Cross as having the symbol of the entire religion: Death is exalted and life is trivialized. That the Bible was basically saying that death was the ultimate goal to strive for, and the more people you took with you the better in the War God's eyes.

As for my rant about Harry Potter (Oh - I must!*L)... The whole Hard Core Christian Anti-Potter force seems to believe that Harry Potter teaches a RELIGION that is adverse to Christianity.

Well - I am a Witch. I have read Potter. It's actually not my fave. I tried three books and "Cute - but - Bored Now" came to mind as the fitting editorial for me. I don't like Potter for the exact opposite reason the Christians seem to fear Potter.*L There is absolutely NO mention of any form of THEOLOGY addressed in the Potter books!

The THEOLOGY of Witchcraft is what makes it work and without it - magickal effectiveness is impossible, let alone without control or balance, as we saw in Two to Go and Grave in BtVS.... The ideas of balance and interconnectedness and belief in everything having energy that can be affected by other energies is the theology of Witchcraft. Belief that what you do is what will ultimatly create the reality you desire.

Potter has none of that. There IS no religion addressed. No belief system. Potter's version of witchcraft is even more theology deprived than Charmed and BtVS: You learn a few words, wave the wand right and ~poof~ things happen. There is absolutely no explaination of WHY they happen!

That is (to me) the scariest part of the Harry Potter mania. The Christians have nothing to complain about because there is no conspiracy to change anyone's beliefs in those books - they simply refuse to even address ANY beliefs at all.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Concur. Spoilers for Bible within -- Fred the obvious pseudonym, 17:40:46 01/03/03 Fri

Let's not leave out incest (Lot & his daughters) and genocide (gee, where did all those Canaanites go? Oh, yeah, they were accursed of God so we killed them . . . [Numbers 21:35: So they smote him [the last King of the Amorites], and his sons, and all his people, until there was none left him alive: and they possessed his land. See also Deuteronomy 3:4 And we took all his cities at that time, there was not a city which we took not from them, threescore cities, all the region of Argob, the kingdom of Og in Bashan. . . 3:6 And we utterly destroyed them, as we did unto Sihon king of Heshbon, utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city. ]

This goes on for a while. Do we really want our children learning about this God-sanctioned violence & slaughter?

[> [> [> *All Men are Liars, and that's the Truth* -- OnM, 08:13:09 01/03/03 Fri

As several others here have already said, it's probably hopeless, and the sad part is when you are done with your attempt, the other person will likely be more convinced than ever that s/he was right, and you will be left angry and frustrated at the failure of reason and open inquiry.

I have had occasion to argue theology with a number of folks over the years, which has sometimes been very enlightening, and sometimes a complete waste of time. In the latter case, I quickly found I was up against an individual who, either by nature or by social conditioning, was held captive by circular reasoning.

To wit, let's say I offer the proposition that God is a creation of the human mind. The thoughtful believer will use examples and reasoning to counter my contention, often skillfully.

The 'locked in' individual will conclude that:

1. I am lying because I am a tool of the devil, and the devil (or whatever anti-god exists) is a deceiver and out to trap him/her into betraying his faith.

2. I am mistaken because I am either hopelessly stupid or misled or that the devil has tricked me.

3. If the thought should appear that I might possibly be right, refer to items 1 and 2.

Circular reasoning complete. End of discussion.

So, the question is, what type of person is your 'convertee'?

[> [> [> [> Now you've done it. We were having a serious conversation, and now I'm humming Nick Lowe... -- cjl, 08:29:53 01/03/03 Fri

All men (all men)
All men are liars
Their words ain't worth no more than worn out tires
So girls (girls!)
Bring rusty pliers
To pull this tooth
"Cause all men are liars and that's the truth.

Do you remember Rick Astley?
He had a big fat hit and man it was ghastley
He said "I'm never gonna give you up
Or let you down"
Well girls let me tell you Rick was clown....

[> [> [> [> LOL.......OnM a tool of the Devil yet...or are you just a fancy circular saw?.;) -- Rufus, 22:29:03 01/03/03 Fri

[> [> [> [> Listen very carefully OnM. I am lying. -- Patterson, 12:44:43 01/05/03 Sun

Sorry couldn't pass up one of my favorite Star Trek bits.

[> [> [> It's probably below the belt... -- KdS, 13:45:52 01/03/03 Fri

But I'd suggest trying Amends. If he still doesn't get it, he never will.

[> [> [> [> Good idea. -- Arethusa, 17:45:27 01/03/03 Fri

[> [> Personally I'd add... -- Rook, 02:05:28 01/03/03 Fri

NKABOTFD and IRYJ. NKABOTFD because I think people watching are going to be wondering just who the hell the kid is, and because it has the first B/G heart to heart at the end of the show. And IRYJ because it introduces Jenny, and for Passions to have the maximum impact, I think you need to see the whole J/G relationship, and also, because like The Pack for Xander, this is Willow's first "focus" episode, where we first get to see a lot of the stuff that makes her tick. And it also has the nice "We're doomed" closer.

[> [> I recommend - -- Finn Mac Cool, 04:39:54 01/03/03 Fri

That you replace "Phases" with "I Only Have Eyes For You". "Phases" really isn't that stellar an episode, and the fact that Oz is a werewolf actually doesn't come up again until Season 3, and hopefully you've got them hooked and enjoying even some of the less strong episodes before then. Meanwhile, "I Only Have Eyes For You" contains a powerful, heartfelt story, an excellent twist, and the cool ending scene when Spike gets out of his wheelchair, accompanied by ominous music.

[> [> Re: Converting Buffy Virgins -- KdS, 06:47:18 01/03/03 Fri

I'd agree with both Dan and Finn and say that you need I Only Have Eyes For You in there - emotionally mindblowing and arguably the key factor in Angelus's attempt to destroy the world. Likewise agreeing with Finn and adding The Dark Age - greys up Giles and explains the mystery left by Halloween. I'm more uncertain about NKABOYFT and I certainly wouldn't include I Robot, You Jane - it's just too silly. The Season One episode I would add to that list is Nightmares - the scene with the hallucinatory Hank was the first BtVS scene that really made my jaw drop, and it features the series's first entirely non-supernatural human evil.

[> [> [> Unless you count Snyder or Cordelia's Gang of Tormentors of the Geeky -- Finn Mac Cool, 08:33:03 01/03/03 Fri

[> [> [> [> I said Evil, not Annoying... -- KdS, 10:05:32 01/03/03 Fri

[> [> Re: Converting Buffy Virgins -- Just George, 11:48:37 01/03/03 Fri

After looking over the ep. lists, I ended up with:

1.1 Welcome to the Hellmouth
1.2 Harvest
1.7 Angel
1.10 Nightmares
1.12 Prophesy Girl

2.1 When She Was Bad
2.3 School Hard
2.6 Halloween
2.7 Lie To Me
2.8 The Dark Age
2.9 What's My Line 1
2.10 What's My Line 2
2.13 Surprise
2.14 Innocence
2.16 Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered
2.17 Passion
2.19 I Only Have Eyes For You
2.21 Becoming 1
2.21 Becoming 2

I ditched The Pack. Never liked it. Added Nightmares because I love it. I almost ditched Halloween, Lie To Me, and The Dark Age. They are not central to the season arc. But Lie To Me and The Dark Age are good emotional episodes. You need Halloween and BB&B to bring the funny.

It would be an interesting excercise to do concentrated Buffy episode lists for the other seasons. Sort of Buffy crack vs. Buffy cocane. Here is a draft of Season 3:

3.1 Anne
3.3 Faith, Hope & Trick
3.5 Band Candy
3.6 Revelations
3.7 Lover's Walk
3.8 The Wish
3.11 Helpless
3.12 The Zeppo
3.14 Bad Girls
3.15 Consequences
3.16 Dopplegangland
3.17 Enemies
3.19 Choices
3.21 Graduation Day - Part I
3.22 Graduation Day - Part II

I wanted to keep The Prom, if only for The Class Protector Award and "Wild, wild horses, couldn't drag me away..." But the list was getting too long. I kept Band Candy and The Zeppo for the funny, but would drop them if I had to shorten the list.

How about Season 4?

4.3 The Harsh Light Of Day
4.6 Wild At Heart
4.7 The Initiative
4.9 Something Blue
4.10 Hush
4.12 A New Man
4.13 The I In Team
4.15 The Year's Girl
4.16 Who Are You?
4.19 New Moon Rising
4.20 The Yoko Factor
4.21 Primeval
4.22 Restless

I had Fear Itself and Superstar for the funny, but took them off the list for length. I could drop A New Man, but I love Giles and Ethan.

What's you take on concentrating S3, S4, or S5 on?

OT, I thought it was brilliant for FX to end New Years Day with both Prophesy Girl and When She Was Bad. It would have been easy to end with PG as the end of Season 1. But WSWB is much more powerful when seen right after PG. Another sign that there are Buffy fans at FX.

-George

[> [> [> I could go with that -- tomfool, 12:21:57 01/03/03 Fri

I actually like Nightmares better than The Pack, too. Valid choice and hints at psychological demons to come. The Dark Age is kind of essential for 'greying up Giles' as KdS pointed out. Phases isn't the strongest ep, but I love the last scene with Oz/Willow. But I could give it up for IOHEFY. Hey, 18 is arbitrary anyway ;-)

Buffy crack v. Buffy cocaine. I like it!
Agree with your S3, but it's hard to give up Earshot & the Prom. S3 was possibly the most consistent season, therefore the hardest to do deletions. Plus, it's the first time that significant arc elements are woven through more of the eps making it hard to delete a few weaker eps due to their importance to the story.

Pretty much agree on S4, but would substitute Freshman for New Man.

I'll have to think about S5 and S6.

Thanks for the feedback.

[> [> [> [> 18 out of 22 eps is'concentrated' Buffy? Not very virgin-friendly if you ask me. -- cjl, 13:42:07 01/03/03 Fri

Suppose a friend of yours decided to indoctrinate you in, say, the X-files or the West Wing, handed you the S1 box, and said: "Don't want to put too much of a strain on you. Immerse yourself gradually. Only watch the episodes absolutely essential to the storyline: skip 1.4, 1.6, 1.8, and 1.11. Bye!" How would you react?

Come on, give the virgins a break. For a 22-ep season, knock it down to 11 (at most)--otherwise, they might as well watch the whole thing.

[> [> [> [> [> 18 out of 36 - S1 *and* S2 -- KdS, 13:49:42 01/03/03 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> [> S1 and S2 are fine. Was referring to S3 (15) and S4 (13) -- cjl, 13:55:19 01/03/03 Fri

Although, I have to admit, I'd be hard-pressed to eliminate any of those episodes myself.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> OK, misunderstood -- KdS, 13:56:59 01/03/03 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: True, by S3, concentrated Buffy was more an exercise than a recommendation -- Just George, 15:52:58 01/03/03 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> Did I say 18 out of 22? Whoops. Meant 15. -- cjl, 13:57:51 01/03/03 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> Really only applies to S1 and S2 -- tomfool, 14:03:26 01/03/03 Fri

The main reason for weeding out the weaker eps really only applies to S1 and early S2 because that's where I was 'losing' the newbies. By the time they make it to the end of S2, I figure that they're on their own. They're not virgins anymore and they're either hooked or never will be.

It's just kind of fun to continue the exercise into the later seasons.

[> [> [> [> [> Actually, tomfool's list is for Seasons 1 and 2, which makes a difference. -- Finn Mac Cool, 14:11:04 01/03/03 Fri

That's a total of 36 episodes, so by watching 18 someone can catch precisely half of the first two seasons.

Though, for fun, I'll do my list of the best episodes to get a Buffy virgin hooked on:

Angel

The Puppet Show

Invisible Girl

Prophecy Girl

When She Was Bad

School Hard

Lie To Me

What's My Line Part I

What's My Line Part II

Surprise

Innocence

Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered

Passion

Killed By Death

I Only Have Eyes For You

Becoming Part I

Becoming Part II

That comes to a total of seventeen, but if I were trying to get someone hooked on Buffy, I'd have them watch the season one episodes I mentioned as well as "When She Was Bad" and "School Hard". Hopefully this would be enough to get them hankering for more of Season Two.

Now, you'll notice there are some discrepencies on my list compared to others. For one thing, I got rid of both the first episode, Nightmares, and The Pack in favor of The Puppet Show and Invisible Girl. I got rid of the first episode because getting into a show part way through isn't as difficult as it might seem at first, and can even generate eagerness to know what came first. I put in The Puppet Show because, when I first saw it, all the plot twists kept me enthralled, and Invisible Girl because it really lives up to the high school is hell theme. I also skipped Halloween and The Dark Age because, if the person got hooked, they'd really enjoy these two episodes more. Lastly, I added "Killed By Death", because I found it to be a creepy and atmoshperic episode that also gives us the Xander/Angelus confrontation that will help set up Becoming.

[> [> Sort of did this afternoon -- yabyumpan, 14:09:27 01/03/03 Fri

A friend came round to visit this afternoon and although I haven't seen her for a while I've spoken to her lots on the phone about my AtS obsession and also about various websites and forums. She's 78 and has never used a computer but wanted me to give her a guided tour around this new fangled technology, esp the internet. This was the first site I showed her (natch) and we spent a long time discussing Angel's journey. She compared it to various religious, philosophical and mythological stories and was obviously very interested.
I say I 'sort of' converted her because she doesn't own a TV so will never get to watch it, but if she did I think she would. (She goes to the cinema reguarly and loved LoTR)

So maybe the 'converting' answer is : show them this site/forum first! :-)

[> [> [> Agreed -- SugarTherapy, 21:37:07 01/03/03 Fri

I use this site a lot when people say that BtVS is "silly" or, as my friend said today when I commented on considering using Buffy for one of my college application essays, "Buffy's a high school show, not a college show". I say Buffy's a deep show and people who don't watch it, or watch it only occasionally, will just snort out a laugh and roll their eyes. So I send them here. lol

Sugar

[> [> Re: Converting Buffy Virgins -- Rattletrap, 14:47:54 01/04/03 Sat

If you're dealing with a true Buffy virgin, you might want to pare it down even more. I'd suggest omitting "The Pack" and "When She Was Bad" as neither one makes an enormous contribution to the larger story, the same might be said for "Phases." That would get it down to a managable 15 hours :-) That same criticism could also apply to BB&B, but that one is such a romp and the lighter note is really necessary after the tissue-fest that is "Surprise/Innocence."

Just my $.02

'trap

[> [> [> Re: Converting Buffy Virgins -- Tess, 20:39:03 01/04/03 Sat

I was converted some four years ago and this is what did it...

Angel
Lie to Me 1&2
Surprise
Innocence
Passions
I only have Eyes for You
Becoming 1&2

After that I begged & borrowed every tape of Buffy I could find until I'd watched the entire first and second season from start to finish. And did it in a one weekend marathon just in time to caught up and ready for the first show of season three.

I'd been working on converting my sister ever since and she refused to do the condensed and quick fix I had. She struggled through renting the season 1 DVDs...took her six months. And than I let her borrow my season 2 DVDs. It took her 3 months to get through the first half of the season and one weekend to get through the last half. She watched the show with her youngest son who's 8 and 'Killed by Death' actually gave him nightmares. And no, she hasn't actually returned my DVD's yet.

The thing is I'm so crazed at not having enough new Buffy and Angel right now I'm actually about to get homicidal.

What do you hate about your job? OT! -- Sara, just wanting to have some fun, 19:18:25 01/02/03 Thu

I've been working as a computer programmer for the last 20 years, mainframes, pcs, networks, sometimes support, training, management, currently a little of everything in a small LAN environment. And what I really hate about my job is: computers . Everytime I start a new job, it doesn't take me long to start grumbling under my breath "I hate computers, I really, really hate computers..." Usually when one of my non computer co-workers hears me, they laugh and say "No you don't," but after a couple of weeks they know I really do. Now, when I make my little proclamations around other programmer types, they'll just nod their heads and mumble back "yes, of course." So anyway, that's what I hate about my job, that the answer to every problem is reload Windows, because even a Windows System Engineer can't troubleshoot the stupid thing, that computers are marketed like they're toasters, buy it, plug it in, all will be well, when all is never well in the world of computers, they are complex tools, whose complexities only grow as the ease of use increases, that companies are selling garbage and not taking any responsiblity for quality control, ...ummm I seem to be ranting here, so, so sorry. But I really do want to know what all of you hate about your jobs. Misery loves company.

And just, so we all don't get too horribly depressed, how about the question of what you love about your job. My personal favorite thing about my job is that I get to work with people all over an organization and learn about their jobs, how they do it, how the politics works, even how the furniture arrangement effects their efficiency and then I get to try and make things better, faster or more effective on some level. Thats what I'm addicted to that somehow keeps me from throwing it all in and seeing if the local fast food joints are hiring. (That, and the concept of putting the kid thru college) One job I had in data center at a bank had a lovely window looking onto a grassy area across the street. My collegues and I would look wistfully at the hot dog vendor set up for the lunch business, and discuss the profitiblity (supposedly very good), logistics (you pack up in winter and transfer your venture to Florida), and potential partnership arrangements. Yet lovely as it all sounded, I somehow can't lose my addiction to any industry I hate. How about you?

- Sara, looking for some sharing

[> Re: It's funny you ask that -- Jay, 19:51:57 01/02/03 Thu

I have a job interview scheduled for Tuesday. I haven't quit my current job yet, even though it's been sucking the life out of me. What I use to love about my work was the absolute mastery over it I use to control. That and how I enjoyed being the "man to the rescue" when things went wrong. In the last year and a half our company got bought out by a corporation, and my responsiblities have sifted down to my qualifications. I've become accustomed to performing way above my resume, and don't appreciate assignments being taken away from me.

Anyway, as I go to interview for a new job, it will be as much as me finding a new boss, as it is for me impressing someone into giving me more money than I make now. Eventually, anyway. I don't expect the first interview to result in a new job, unless the guy interviewing is one hell of a boss.

[> Re: What do you hate about your job? OT! -- Arethusa, 20:40:04 01/02/03 Thu

What do I hate about my job, a housewife? Let me count the ways.

I work for free. No paycheck means I have to go to my husband for every dime I spend, and we have to try to survive on one highly variable income. Luckily, I have a phobia about spending money, but it would be very nice to know we could pay our health insurance every month. (Does National Health work out okay, all ya'll in Canada and the U.K.? 'Cause insurance is crippling families here.)

I'm never alone. Never, never, never. Never. For a loner, that's pretty difficult. I adore the little munchkins, but they're always there. When I want to read, watch BtVS, go to the bathroom, browse a bookstore, read the board whatever, there they are.

I am always on the job. I can't walk away and go home and think about something else, because I'm always at work. And the work is never done. Spend two days washing and ironing? The baskets will be full again before you're finished. Clean the kitchen from stenciled ceiling to tile floor? It's time to make dinner. Literally, sometimes the little nippers walk behind me, undoing the work I just did.

What do I like about my job? I get to spend lots of time with my kids, and concentrate most of my energy on my family. Which means, really, that the best thing about my job is my kids. Laura, reading the funny bits of the Harry Potter books aloud to me. Megan, laughing at my jokes and saying, "Mama, you are so funny." Jack, putting his arms around me for a goodnight hug. No matter how irritating or relentless or mindless my job sometimes is, I wouldn't trade the last nine years for all the honors or money in the world.

[> [> Re: health care question -- lynx, 01:02:49 01/03/03 Fri

>>would be very nice to know we could pay our health insurance every month. (Does National Health work out okay, all ya'll in Canada and the U.K.? 'Cause insurance is crippling families here.)<<

really depends on where you live - it's decent (if basic) in ontario. we only pay for prescriptions and some medical equipment (of course we can get insurance for those if wanted.) taxes higher but worth every penny, to me, at least. :)

[> [> [> NHS in Britiain - don't make me laugh -- Helen, 01:30:45 01/03/03 Fri

Fifty years ago it was intended to provide basic health care to all free at point of delivery - idea being that no on should die because they couldn't afford to send for a doctor.

Now, procedures that no one ever thought possible require more and more funding and somewhere, you either have to draw a line or find more money - and no one wants more taxes....

Quality varies according to area. Choice is limited - its virtually impossible to get an "NHS" dentist for example, even though their treatment ceased to be free for most adults years ago (children pensioners and pregnant women still get free NHS dental treatment) so most people have to go private. Eye care is not free, although some people can get free eye tests (mind you their employers have to pay for tht, not the NHS). It can be very hard to change your GP if you aren't happy with him/her.

All in all, its a lottery and although a lot of good happens, its best not to be ill in UK.

[> [> [> [> Re: Feeling the need to defend the NHS... -- yabyumpan, 12:52:47 01/03/03 Fri

...partly because I work within it (on a hospital switchboard) but also because of recent family experience. My mother recently had a knee replacement, she had absolutly no complaints about her time in hospital, infact was full of praise and has since been recieving very good aftercare. When my father was dying of cancer 5/6 years ago he also recieved excellent care, both in and out of hospital. No money changed hands for either of them.
I agree it's not perfect and there are some worrying changes on the horizon but for the most part it is still FREE at the point of contact (obviously we pay for it through taxes but if you are unemployed, elderly etc, it's still available and FREE). A friend's aunt was denied further care for her diabetes in the US because her insurance had run out, so I do think we have a LOT to be grateful for in this country.
Sorry for the rant but I do think it's easy to forget just how fortunate we are in the UK, however imperfect the system is.

[> [> [> [> [> Getting back on subject.. -- yabyumpan, 13:14:56 01/03/03 Fri

What do I hate about my job..not a lot really. Dealing with 'members of the public' can be a bit tricky at times, it's amazing how many patients phone up the hospital not really knowing what department they want or even what's wrong with them. You end up going through the body..."well is it to do with your head, your heart, your legs maybe....?" The shift work can be a bit of a bind, it definatly wouldn't suit someone with a very active social life but there are advantages: I get mornings/afternoons/weekdays free, depending on the rota. The switchroom is selfcontained with kitchen and loo plus, and best of all, we have a TV and VCR, which means on my nights and at weekends I can watch endless AtS videos and work on my fan fiction (if I get inspired). I have also in the past used my night duties, which tend to be pretty quite, to study. I get on well with all my collegues, even my boss and her boss. People from all over the hospital pop in to the S/B to sort out pagers, phones etc or just to have a chat (which can be a pain if i'm watching a video, but there's always the pause button!).

Writing it all down I think I'm pretty lucky. Yay me :-)

[> [> [> [> [> Healthcare problems in US -- shadowkat, 17:35:04 01/04/03 Sat

Can't speak for the UK. I do remember when my parents worked in Australia that they commented on how the NHS system over there wasn't the same quality as it is here.
Better procedures etc. But that's because it costs more here and the doctors get paid more. I remember discussing this issue with a doctor from China who had transfered to NYC to do his residency from Shang-Hai.

He told me that while we may have more advanced medicine here, everyone in China had access to medical treatment. The doctors treated them the same. While in NYC's hospitals if a patient wasn't covered by insurance - they didn't get full care at the hospital. In some cases they weren't treated at all - which horrified him.

While I worked at the Kansas State Legislature - they were debating the National Healthcare idea - this was back in 1994, when Hilary Clinton was still pushing for it and so were some state senators at the state level. What kept it from going through were the lobbyists: Insurance, AMA (American Medical Association) - which had pros and cons regarding it, the Small Business Association, etc. On a state level at least in the case of the Senator I worked for - the research on a bill is mostly done by lobbyists.
The lobbyists were against National Healthcare and fought to keep Kansas from passing legislation on it. They felt that it was impossible to support the cost of it and it would also hurt the insurance system, business, and healthcare providers not to mention the quality of care in the state.

When I left my company - I went from paying $34 a month to paying $287 for Cobra, which will cover you for 18 months. I'm single. And that only covers hospital, tests, primary care, major medical costs with a co-payment of $20. It does not cover dental, vision. Prescriptions is a $30 co-payment. For people with families this can go up to $1000. New York State does not have cheaper Cobra insurance. I shopped around - the cheapest I could find off Cobra was $384 (no dental, no vision). HealthyNewYork - is priced at $233 and provides even less. I have a friend with hypertension who pays upwards to $300 a month on prescriptions and has insurance.

Does the US need to do something about the Health Care situation? Definitely. Will we? Your guess is as good as mine.

[> [> [> [> [> used to work for NHS myself, no criticism of the workers intended -- Helen, 08:14:53 01/06/03 Mon

and both my brothers and mother are nurses so I know what pressures they face. But it has massive failings and we all know it.

[> [> [> Re: health care question -- Wisewoman, 06:45:57 01/03/03 Fri

Remember that brain aneurysm I had last March? Know what it actually cost me, out-of-pocket (including 11 1/2 hour neurosurgery and three weeks in hospital, one in a private room)? $54.00 CDN. That was the ambulance fee, and several people have suggested I could claim it back from my employer, 'cause they called the ambulance, not me! (I'm not gonna do that, though, 'cause I'm kinda glad they called...)

dub ;o) Happy (and lucky) to be a Canadian

[> [> Re: Thanks, Arethusa. -- tim, 19:47:57 01/05/03 Sun

Just wanted to say thank you for this. My own mom stayed home with us until I was eight, when it became financially necessary for her to find employment (read: we were gonna lose the house). I sent this to her because I figured she could relate to all the joys and frustrations you describe.

For my own part, it helped me appreciate her all over again. Your kids are very lucky to have you there for them. I know I was. Thanks for the reminder.

--th

[> [> [> Re: Thanks to you too. -- Arethusa, 07:09:40 01/06/03 Mon

It's amazing how good a few kind words can make me feel. I was kinda kicking myself for making such a personal and sentimental (and whiny) post. All mothers do what I do, and most of them work as well. I'll have to go back to work this fall or next, too-mostly for the benefits-and I"m both looking forwards to it and regretting the necessity.

[> [> [> [> Don't kick yourself!! -- Rahael, 08:10:23 01/06/03 Mon

Your post was lovely, and far from being sentimental, was refreshing in its honesty.

Made me think about my memories of my mother - she didn't actually spend that many years looking after me full time - most of the time, it was my grandparents, aunts and a succession of nannys who brought me up. I can even remember when I was little, as a card was read out to me, and I thought "I can't even picture her face".

But I treasure every thing she did do for me. I remember it all especially from the few precious years we did live together as a proper family. So essential are these memories, in fact, that I still have a scrap of my blanket from that time. It signifies warmth and safety and love for me. I cannot sleep without it.

I have spent a lot of my time waiting for her to come home. She was sitting her final exams for her doctrate when she had me - so she had to go to work very soon, and then later, she went abroad to do her phd. When she was still living with us, I'd say goodbye to her in the morning, and then sit on the front steps and wait for her to come home. When she did, and took off the first layer of her sari, I'd immediately pick it up and carry it away with me. The actual person was more elusive, hard to hold on to.

I guess part of me is still waiting - I am so used to her being away.

(See now, far more personal and very very sentimental!!)

Your children are very lucky Arethusa, and I am sure they will have treasured this time with you, just as I treasured all the time I did get with mine. It means everything to me.

[> Now, I wrote 27 pages about Riley Finn. If I start writing about my *job*... -- OnM, 21:29:43 01/02/03 Thu

... the board would likely explode, and this would be bad because what having my job mostly makes me appreciate is how much it makes me look forward to coming home and posting here with all you nice folks instead!

I've told many customers this many times, when they say "how cool it must be to get to play with all these toys, and it's your job!":

"Don't make your hobby your profession. Then it's no longer something you do for pleasure-- it's now YOUR JOB."

It's a truly evil thing when something you once truly enjoyed becomes something you hate, or at best, begrudgingly tolerate.

[> Re: What do you hate about your job? OT! -- Deeva, 22:10:41 01/02/03 Thu

Well, I'm a production coordinator in an advertising dept. What I hate the absolute most about my job is that I'm good at what I do. Sounds weird, huh? I'm a pretty astute person and have an extremely good memory for things. So I pick up stuff from everywhere. General knowledge and not so general knowledge stuff. I get a little annoyed that my coworkers almost automatically turn to me to answer or solve something. Some days it's flattering. On other days it's down right disruptive and distracting. The other thing that I hate about my job (which really this part is not that connected to me as it is just something that I see on a daily basis) is when I see someone who is clearly phoning in their performance. They're just showing up to collect their pay check and that's about it. They don't even really do their job and when it is done, it's not done all that well. It's just something that I don't understand.

Now what I love about my job is that I get to talk to so many different people from all over the country. I love a good logistical nightmare because I love wrestling with it until it works for me. I love that they are people in my department that I love to be around. What a great thing that is! I also love that I can check out the internet all the time because it's research.

And also on the same note as OnM, my job is not my hobby. It's my job. My interest is illustration. I went to school and graduated intending to go with drawing as my way of making it in the world. That was 4 years ago. I never did get a job having anything to do with what I studied. I was content in watching all my classmates go forth and work for all the big guys, Disney, Dreamworks, Wild Brain, Pixar, ILM and so on. I learned a lot just watching them and the one thing that I got out from just observing them was that they all slowly turned away from the art because it was work. I love what I do too much to have it turn to that. So I decided to only do what I wanted for myself and to only share it with friends and family. This manifested itself into personal note cards and greeting cards with caricatures of me. I am now finding myself being approached by people who want to sell my cards in their stores. It boggles my mind but in a good way. ;o)

[> I used to... but now I write papers about Buffy for a living. heh. -- Rochefort, 00:08:31 01/03/03 Fri

I was an editor. Wowza. I hate cubicles. Misery. abject.

Now I'm a ph.d. student. heh heh. Last semester I got paid to teach english classes and write a paper about the lacanian construction of spike's masculinity. heh heh.

[> [> Re: I used to... but now I write papers about Buffy for a living. heh. -- Random, 14:51:15 01/03/03 Fri

Sounds like more fun than my English T.A. experience where my students could hardly place subject/predicate agreements without having a moral crisis, and my paper writing centered around epistemology and medieval literature, with a dash of Foucalt (way too peremptory and hardcore BSDM for my taste) and my own personal literary theory of "re-construction." If they'd let me write Buffy papers, I would have chosen to conflate the meta-reflexive psyches of Faith and Giles as psychopomps of the PTB, under a post-post-structuralist imperative through a sublimation of the Ego as Other precept...i.e. pure b.s. that rationalized my desire to watch Buffy two, three, a dozen times a week. God, I wish I could go back and do your job!

[> [> [> yeah, that about sums it up. :) I even made my STUDENTS write on BTVS. -- Rochefort, 14:27:27 01/04/03 Sat

[> Re: What do you hate about your job? OT! -- Rahael, 04:22:57 01/03/03 Fri

People are always telling me to leave my job - "if you stay too long, it won't look good on the CV".

But I think my job is pretty good:

Feel like I'm working to make other people's life better, rather than making my organisation richer.

Part of my job is to write letters of complaint with regard to human rights abuses around the world. It's not strictly what we're about, but it's the kind of thing we care about.

I get to work with some really caring, nice people. The fact that they can talk to me about opera, and history, and literature and poetry on long car journeys is just a plus (and that's just my boss!)

Job security is very very high. My pay will never get cut, it can only go up, or stay the same in the worst case scenario.

I get to meet lots of people, both in work and social situations, ranging from journalists, politicians, people generally involved in political campaigning, travel to parts of the UK I've never been before. I once ended up talking about Spuffy to a journalist from a national newspaper at a fancy dinner.

Unlike academia (this job was supposed to fund my post graduate degree, but I got waylaid), I get to have good financial renumeration for writing and analysis, plus, shorter deadlines.

I get many, many opportunities to wear fancy, stylish outfits for work occasions. That's very important!

6 weeks of holiday a year (I wouldn't say no to more though!)

I often get to come in late, though I end up working late every day.

They've rewarded me generously for staying with them. My new boss (whose temper I feared) turns out to be lovely, and much much easier to work for than my old one. Plus, he actually listens to me, and has shown himself to be unusually open to new thoughts and approaches.

I got the satisfaction after a Conference where he spoke, of hearing someone say "I was really surprised, I never thought he'd say that, now I can go back and be more confident about what I say".

Downsides: I have to do some pretty boring monotonous stuff as well as the more interesting bits.

They actually expect me, to like, work.

Sometimes the travelling and staying in hotels thing can get wearying.

Sometimes my work mates do drive me batty.

Office politics - but things have calmed down this year.

A boss with a fearsome temper. But I like him more now than I ever thought I would. I really respect him, and his intelligence. I've got a feeling he's going to spoil me for other bosses.

[> I'll take bosses for 100. -- neaux, 04:28:56 01/03/03 Fri

well for a while I hated my boss who was an alcoholic and bitter lady. for 5 years I worked with her. well this past year she was demoted for lying to the company.
In the past 4 months she wouldnt come into work and my company finally fired her.

So that was what I hated. Now I'm sorta free. New respect for my job maybe?? I'm not sure. I think if I was to formulate a new hate, it would be doing all her work now that she has left.

oh btw, I'm a graphics coordinator at a wholesale drug company. So I signed on as graphic designer 5 years ago, and now must act as designer and editor/marketing managing type person without the manager pay. I'm not sure if they will give me her job or hire someone else but its already the new year and nothing yet.

and yet another aside (do you know how hard it is to find a marketing person that actually knows anything about the drug industry? you would think of how big the drug industry is from Glaxosmithkline to Pfizer that they have huge marketing departments. Not the case my friends. Not at all. These drug companies dont even know a jpg from an eps. My new boss has looked over 1000 resumes for someone who has marketing experience in the wholesale drug industry.. and not a single one matched.)

sad. sad sad.

[> Re: What do you hate about your job? OT! -- verdantheart, 06:52:56 01/03/03 Fri

Hm, what do I hate? That's hard to say. Maybe what it really comes down to that I'd really rather be doing something else with my time. Although they haven't exactly been generous with the raises the past few years, I make a reasonable living, but I think I'd really rather be starving for a while and see if I could make it as either a novelist or artist. Darn husbands, they don't seem to understand that sort of thing.

What do I like? I like the folks I work with. I've done a lot of things well, and I've done a lot of things I've enjoyed. I'm ostensibly a technical writer, but I've used Louise and Perl to do doc conversions for them and make their online doc work--that was pretty fun. Now I'm doing more and more editing, and the workload is getting heavier--with the no-raises thing, it's really getting hate-y lately.

[> Re: What do you hate about your job? OT! -- Lilac, 07:54:21 01/03/03 Fri

Oddly enough, I like many things about my job, except for the fact that I am stuck in an educational ghetto. I teach part time at a community college. Over 90% of the faculty is part time. This means that we get no guarantees, no benefits to speak of, and don't even get first consideration when the rare full time slot comes open. So this is basically a thankless, futureless job. The parts I like are working with the students. I have had students ranging from 15 to 75. I teach intro computer science classes, some of which are required for many degrees. So I get to see quite a cross section of people -- from the computer geek boys who think they know it all to middle aged women retraining for the work force who are terrified to be touching a computer. Getting through students is a very satisfying thing. What's not satisfying is the $450 a month my husband and I pay for health insurance (he is self employed).

For many year before I got into teaching I was doing marketing support work for a former employer out of my home. This paid well, and allowed me to be home with my son as he grew. When I told people what I did, I would invariably be met with a barely concealed sneer -- oh, another self employed consultant. Now that I am teaching, and making a fraction of what I used to, people are impressed when I tell them what I do. Isn't working life strange?

[> Job-hunting - anyone with contacts? Ideas? -- dream, 09:36:17 01/03/03 Fri

I don't actually hate my job, which is rather nice. I have the nicest boss on earth, and excellent co-workers. There's no office politics, and I've only had to work late ONCE in the three years I've been here. I'm paid well and get a lot of vacation time. So why leave? This job has nothing to do with who I am. Which sounds absurd, but let me give a little background:

I was an English major in college, with a minor in art history. It sounds completely insane, but I never thoguht about what I was going to do when I graduated. I was a bit of a dreamer, and the only thing I really wanted was to do a lot of different things with my life, not to get trapped into one thing. Well, they say that the worst curse anyone can bestow is "may you get what you want." I worked as a temp in New York for a while in a bunch of different offices. I worked as a personal assistant (one of four) to a very, very wealthy man. I went to culinary school and worked as a pastry chef. I developed bone spurs in my feet and got sick of being terribly poor, so I took job with a fellow I knew who had started a mutual fund trading company. He was abusive, and quite frankly mentally ill, and I lasted only a year and a half - but I essentially ran his office (researching the systems, calculating the signals, developing the trading sheets, placings the orders, etc) while he had his breakdown. Tired, I left to take a nice quiet academic job, which is where I am today. I work as an administrative assistant, with some research functions. And I'm bored out of my mind.

I desperately want to find work that I will find personally meaningful. As Robert Frost put it:

My purpose in life is to unite
My avocation and my vocation
As my two eyes make one in sight
Only where love and need are one
And the work is play for mortal stakes
Is the deed ever really done
For heaven's and the future's sakes.

I'm thirty-one, single, free to go anywhere where I can take a cat (and a boyfriend who writes full-time and can live anywhere). I have skills (good with computers and all), and more to the point, I've excelled in every job I've had. With no financial background, I ran a $350 million company. When I left, three people were hired to replace me. My current job was supposed to be a simple administrative postion - I've created a web site and a very large and complicated database of our research and publications with no prior knowledge of web sites or databases. I was just listed as a author on a publication in NEJM. And I make a mean chocolate mousse. But I have no idea how to go about finding a job; my background is all over the map. I love the arts, and I love food, and I would like to move to a more rural area. I would like a job that did something meaningful for a community, and I don't care about making a lot of money. I don't intend to have children, so I can devote myself to a career - if I could find one. I would be great at a "jack of all trades" job, a community coordinator for an arts program or something along those lines, where a breadth of skills is called for. But how does one find a job like that - and convince the person doing the hiring that a secretary/pastry chef/mutual fund trader/polling researcher is just what s/he needs?

I know that's probably way more than anyone wanted to know about me, but maybe someone out there has a suggestion. I feel like I am wasting my life.

[> [> Re: Job-hunting - anyone with contacts? Ideas? -- Sara, 11:52:42 01/03/03 Fri

Was an english major, too, so I understand. It's amazing where we end up falling. I've worked in both for-profit (banks, can't get more profity than them!) and non-profit (an organization that works with the Developmentally Disabled, and my current job at a museum) and I've got to say that non-profit is much more satisfying on many levels. The nice thing about non-profit is that if you're not looking for a high salary and can get a good job in one, there will be a bunch of places to move within the organization. Salary lines are a big item in the non-profit world, so that a really competent, enthusiastic, and affordable current worker can often be better than bringing in someone new and expensive.

I would keep my eyes open for any interesting positions in organizations that catch your eye. Check out museums especially. Don't apply for the "director of" or "manager" position because on paper your previous titles won't support it, but "coordinator", "assistant" "administrative assistant" positions could be an open door that you could really build something with. If you really can't tolerate boredom (I know that's a major issue for me) you need to check out the positions very carefully to make sure you don't take something that will drive you crazy before you have a chance to build it into something better.

One thing to be aware of though, if you haven't worked in the non-profit world, the politics can be even wierder than in a normal office. Since salaries tend to be lower, and budgets very tight, there can be alot of resentments bubbling under the surface that come out in all kinds of bizarre and unpleasant ways. Another "be careful what you wish for" type scenerio.

Another option is to really get involved in something important to you, one your own time, at least until you find something better in employment. I've found the times that I've been bored at work, I had a ton of energy for other projects, such as art classes, history classes, or even trying to start a business which as soon as I got an interesting job kind of faded away. Something cool to do outside of work can be a great stopgap solution.

- Sara, grateful that I may be going crazy but I'm never bored

[> [> [> Just a thought... -- Wisewoman ;o), 16:34:00 01/03/03 Fri

You probably already know this, but the very best book ever written for someone in your situation (IMHO) is Wishcraft, by Barbara Sher. (She also wrote several others, including Live the Life You Love, I Could Do Anything If I Only Knew What It Was, and It's Only Too Late If You Don't Start Now, but the first was the best and the others repeat a lot of what's in Wishcraft.)

If you've never read it, I highly recommend it.

dub ;o)

[> [> 'Just a Thought' was actually for dream (that's probably obvious, I guess) -- Wisewoman ;o), 16:35:17 01/03/03 Fri

[> [> Re: Job-hunting - anyone with contacts? Ideas? -- ponygirl, 19:34:23 01/03/03 Fri

Having worked both willingly and unwillingly for a number of arts organizations over the years I'd say someone with your skills and background would be a godsend to any non-profit. So many of the people working for smaller theatres, galleries and film societies are creative types with a lot of dedication but few practical skills, anyone with decent admin experience or computer know-how ends up getting worked to death. Which is of course the problem with these groups - burnout high, pay low. I'd suggest sending your resume to some groups you're interested in, you never know. I don't know about the food industry but the arts people are usually willing just to chat and offer advice. Here in Canada there's a website called CharityVillage.com that lists job openings for non-profit companies, maybe there's a US equivalent?

I can certainly relate to the boredom factor. My current web writing job is fun and the people are nice, even if they do try to involve me in discussions on Grand Theft Auto, but the hours do drag. However this job leaves me with enough energy to work on my own stuff when I get home, a luxury I don't want to give up. Still my contract is up in the spring with no guarantee of renewal, so I find myself gearing up once again for some job hunting. My secret wish is to be able to stay home and write. Of course I did that for much of last year, unfortunately with hardly any money, which put a definite damper on the experience.

Is there a patron saint/demon of job-hunters that we can all make sacrifices to?

[> [> [> Thank you all so much (with some patron saint info) -- dream, 06:52:43 01/06/03 Mon

The words of encouragement are very helpful - and I will definitely order that book, Wisewoman. I have been using this job, which doesn't take too much out of me, to let myself grow in other areas, taking art classes and so on, but I am definitely ready to bring things together into a more coherent whole.

As for the patron saint of job-seekers - of course! Trust me, the Catholic Church leaves no possible gaps in its parton saint coverage. For instance, as a pastry chef, I was protected by Saint Honorus (think Gateau St. Honore). Job seekers can look to:

Saint Cajetan : Venetian nobility. Studied law in Padua, and was offered governing posts, but turned them down for a religious vocation. Ordained at age 36. In 1522, Cajetan founded a hospital in Venice for victims of incurable illness...formed the Congregation of Clerks Regular at Rome (Theatines), with the mission of fostering the Church's mission and reviving the spirit and zeal of the clergy. Founded a bank to help the poor and offer an alternative to usurers (loan sharks); it later became the Bank of Naples. Why job seekers - don't know, except that he seems to have been involved in law, banking, health care, and non-profit sectors.

This board, by the way, would probably have to pray to Saint Clare of Assisi, who is patron saint of television, because when she was dying and too sick to attend Mass, the service would appear in a vision on her wall.

Buffy herself would have lots of choices, since there are many patron saints for soldiers and warriors - but perhaps of those she would choose St. Faith first? (Who died be means of beheading, by the way - let's hope that's an allusion the writers never feel the need to make.)

For some really entertaining reading about patron saints from "abandoned people" to "zoos" you can check out www.catholic-forum.com/saints/patron00

[> [> Looking for work outside of Midwest US by July. -- Deb -- I wanta move out of Midwest real badly., 17:24:59 01/04/03 Sat

The economy here is just getting worse and worse, and I'm not going on for the Ph.D. anytime soon. So, east or west, either is best.

My background:

Teacher: 3 years -- secondary and college level -- English, Journalism, Film Appreciation.

Writer -- 9 years -- medical and crime beats for two semi-large newspapers.

Editor, Managing Editor, Communication Director, Events Director -- 2 years -- Medical Society Magazine.

Not-for-profit -- 2 years -- Event Planner, Public Relations, Volunteer relations.

Retail Graphic Artist -- 5 years.

Retail Supervisor, floor and front end -- six years while in high school and undergraduate study.

Babysitter -- 1 time. Six kids. All with Chicken Pox.

[> [> [> Have you tried ... -- shadowkat, 12:19:01 01/06/03 Mon

These job web sites?

flipdog.com - does lots of writing/journalism/art jobs
mediabistro.com - also lots of publishing and writing jobs
nytimes.com - job market
bostonworks.com - job market
www.jobsniper.com - searches all the job sites on the internet.

These are helpful. And you can set geographic and job limits for each agent.

Oh and another really good one for non-profit?

www.idealist.org - pretty sure that's the right one, could be com.

PS: Completely Understand desire to move out of the Midwest. Prior to moving to NYC six years ago, I lived for 17 years in Kansas City. (It is the one place in the country I do NOT want to go to.)

[> [> [> [> Thank You and Oh My God, Someone Understands!! -- Deb, 03:02:20 01/07/03 Tue

I've lived here for all but three years of my life! Almost everyone north of the Missouri River is my relative! I've only stayed here this long because of a stupid "child custody" law that says I need my daughter's father's permission to move more than 30 miles in one year. (I emailed, and called, every congressional person several times about the law, and they changed it because of me. Before, I couldn't move at all!) We've moved 30 miles every year for last five years and we are still here! We've decided that we both will become fugitives and just move far, far away -- New Zealand, Australia, Italy, Canada, Madrid or the south of France. New York would be wonderful, and I have talked to some people in Boston. I have contacts in Los Angeles and San Francisco. Okay, you've got me excited. You did it. I can do it too!! Let's talk.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Thank You and Oh My God, Someone Understands!! -- shadowkat, 14:05:54 01/07/03 Tue

I sent you an email on how I did it. It wasn't easy, but in retrospect - far easier than staying in KC had been.

You can do it! Sounds like you've already gotten past the hardest hurdles - just getting permission to move. If you can do that - and I admire you for it. Moving to Boston or New York isn't that not hard. My suggestion - look first on the internet. Then see if you can find someone who can put you up for a little while - or in some cities you can get boarding rooms that are fairly cheap.

And really - check out those sites. You have experience that I'd kill for.

The best thing I ever did was move to NYC from KC. (KC isn't a bad town - it just wasn't the right place for me.
Took me a long time to realize that...but I did. Someone once told me that sometimes the best thing you can do in a situation is leave it. Place doesn't work for you? Go somewhere else.)

Good luck! SK

[> Re: What do you hate about your job? OT! -- Lyonors, 10:49:10 01/03/03 Fri

Well, I work for one of the top 10 ballet companies in the country as the Assistant Costumier. The fact that my title is in French (where else other than a ballet company would your title be in French!!??) is one of the upsides. Other bonuses: I get complimentary tickets to a bunch of the other arts organizations in town. I get to work with people who are doing what they love: performing their art (I, as an injured musician unable to perform, find myself living vicariously through them). I have one of those fascinating jobs that people always want to hear about, which makes me almost as popular as the mini-wieners at parties.
Now for the downsides:
1. Nutcracker. Nutcracker. Nutcracker.
2. Painting shoes is a pretty boring facet of my job as well, along with the annoying blonde-factor with most of the dancers who forget to give me their shoes to be painted in a timely fashion.
3. Poisoning myself with fabric dye on a regular basis is rather sucky as well, although what I can do with a bolt of silk and a few tubs of dye is pretty phenomenal!
4. Oh and did I mention Nutcracker? I know, you can't have a ballet company without the money that is generated with the Nutcracker; it's just a monetary impossibility. 5. Now, I am a classically trained violist and violinist, and Tchaikovsky is one of my favorite composers, but I am now so sick of the music from the Nutcracker, that I dread Christmas because on all Christmas compilation albums invariably, there will be Nutcracker music. And the main rehearsal room for the dancers is right next to my office and the costume shop, with really crappy sound proofing. So, there was a point about mid October that if I had heard the music from the Grand Pas de Deux of the Sugarplum Fairy and her Cavalier, I might have gone over there with my 10" patterning scissors and attacked the CD player.
6. Then there is the fact that my arm is in a cast because of my job. I was carrying a box of pointe shoes (heavy little buggers) and clipped the door with one end of the box, hyper extending my wrist and tearing 3 ligaments. Best part? I did it right at the last minute crunch before our "new" nutcracker opened this year. (By the way that's 215 costumes in less than 10 months. Grr.) So I couldn't even go on workman's comp, because between my boss and I, we each knew half of the show, and if I left, she would have been SOL. So, I stayed, worked my butt off with several torn ligaments in my wrist(mind you, the emergency room told me it was fine), made my injury 10 times worse, and then the week of opening night, was finally diagnosed with the torn ligaments and put in an above elbow cast, rendering me useless. Now, I am probably going to have surgery because of those 2 weeks of working with my wrist in that state.
The best part? My boss seems to think I am going to stay around for another season of this! HA!
And that's my gripe about my job! The moral of the story? Non-Profit Arts jobs mean non-profit for you too!

Ly.

[> Wow! All this hate -- Vickie, 11:21:32 01/03/03 Fri

makes me really appreciate my job. What do I hate about my job?

The current downturn in high tech, which has made it impossible for my current employer to make much of a profit, endangering jobs and the health of the company. If the darned place could just make a healthy percentage, I'd be a happy camper.

I have a decent employer, a good company with a great CEO (handed out ice cream bars to the employees the day the IPO check came), smart and human colleagues (I'm a writer who's treated well by the programmers, go figure), a really good boss who can actually teach me a thing or three, and interesting work. The commute is hell, but they let me telecommute up to three days a week.

Apart from the profit issue, I hate the fact that a full time job requires, well, full time. I'd love to be able to expand my healing efforts and go back to writing some stuff, but just don't have the brain power after studying J2EE and CORBA. But, after reading your posts, I'm just grateful.

May you all find the employment that will give you prosperity, growth, and contentment!

[> Well I hated my job enough to quit, now desperately hunting -- shadowkat, 14:07:10 01/03/03 Fri

As many of you already know - I had the boss from hell. After months of venting about it in essays - I finally left the job. That's right I quit my job without a job to go to.
And am desperately hunting a new one. Any help would be appreciated.

Wait? You had a job and quit? Insane you say??

Well here's the story - one I pray no one has to endure themselves. My boss makes Dilbert's look like a saint.

I actually liked aspects of my job and could have stayed at it longer if it weren't for the fact that I had a psycho boss from hell and knew if I didn't get out of there? I'd lose what little dignity I had left.

My most recent boss had systematically over a period of 12 months managed to take away everything about my job that I liked until I was only left with the aspects I despised.

What did I do? I was a Manager of Rights and Permissions at a library reference company. I have a law degree and an BA in English.
I negotiated content agreements with Scientific America, Time, Inc.,
Rodale Press, Primedia, Cahners - now Reed Business, etc to place their articles in a series of online databases sold primarily to libraries. I joined the company in 1996 and during the past six years created a rights and permissions department from the ground up. This involved the creation of a large database - the most accurate one in the company at the time I left, the maintainence and acquisition of content from over 1700 journals and magazines, negotiating contracts with over 1000 publishers, developing new methods for acquiring content, writing brochures explaining what the company did to publishers, developing a company wide system for finding information on newly aquired content, explaining copyright law to people, developing a company copyright policy and ensuring that the company did not infringe on others copyright.

I used to write strategic reports - including one on how the company could use a new library reference system.
I used to negotiate complex contracts and provide information and advice on copyright law. I used to attend strategy meetings. I even helped develop a new database.
I met with publishers and acquired content.

In Aug 2000, my old boss, a nice guy who has remained one of my references, retired and a new boss took over. This new boss promised me that I could expand my department - do more complex licensing agreements, maybe even advance in the company. I wrote a proposal which he agreed with and supported. He said that I could have a budget. That I could attend conferences to network with publishers. In March 2001, He convinced me that we should hire a License Associate to help me with acquisitions. I learned five months after this Associate was hired that my new boss had always hated my guts and had told the new License Assoc that she was to learn everything there was about my job in order to take it over and he was going to make my life miserable enough to get me to quit. I learned that my new boss didn't understand my job and didn't want to provide me with the resources necessary to do it. He saw it as telephone sales and recordkeeping. He believed that we should be able to get content from magazines and distribute them over the internet to libraries and pay no more than $1 to $100 a year for it. Everything else I did in his opinion could be down by my administrative assistant - this included the maintainence of the database and explanation of royalties to publishers. He believed that I was never right for the job - since this was clearly in his eyes a sales job. (This was after I had increased my company's textual content by 50% under my old boss, a kind man who had retired.) Unfortunately for my boss, I outperformed the new associate, in fact I acquired more content that year than I had the year before with less money available. The Assoc. informed me of my boss's plans after my boss blew up at me in his office one day - he cursed, raged, etc. I dismissed it as nothing since this guy had a reputation for blowing up at people in meetings. Although this was the only time he'd done it with me. But my Associate told me that not only had he orchestrated this performance but he had told her about it ahead of time. (It sounded bizarr on the surface. But there'd been rumors about how my boss had treated other people and he had a reputation for doing this. Also his other direct reports supported her allegations.)

The day the Assoc was fired, (March 2002) she let me know that she knew she was being paid more than I was and how much more - it was more than double my salary. I would not have believed any of it - if my boss hadn't inadvertently confirmed it when I finally confronted him and he did NOT deny any of it. My boss couldn't fire me, but he did refuse to give me a raise or reassign me to another boss. Instead he took away all the parts of my job I liked and resorted to nasty little tricks like making life miserable for my Assistant and myself. I couldn't stand looking at him much less hearing his voice and the job slowly became more and more unendurable. Rather than making the hour and fifteen minute commute every morning and worrying about his next trick - I decided to put my efforts into something far more meaningful: a) hunting a job and b)writing. I have enough money saved to make it a little while longer - but really need to find something soon.

Whew. So now I'm hunting for something in which I can use my writing and analytical skills. I'm good at strategy. Good at writing. Bad at copy-editing - in case you couldn't tell from my posts ;-). I have six job sites emailing me on a daily basis: Jobsniper.com (searches the net), mediabistro.com, hotjobs.com, careerbuilder.com (not as great), flipdog.com, and newyorktimes.com. If you have any ideas or know anyone that can help? Let me know.

Btw: Being on this board and getting the responses I've received on my essays and posts has helped a great deal.

SK

[> [> Bosses thrown out of hell for nastiness -- Fred the obvious pseudonym, 17:25:17 01/03/03 Fri

Shadowkat --
I hear you -- a more extreme example of behaviors I and others in my family have witnessed. My brother's been in business for years and it still amazes him how many bosses DON'T know how to do their jobs right. They take out their fears and insecurities on their staff. Many seem to be in it for power games than performance. Bosses like that tend to see their subordinates as toys and problems (for the boss, not necessarily the company) than as assets.

It might be interesting if your boss's boss has noticed the collapse of a formerly functioning division of his department. Of course people like this tend to be good at shifting the blame onto others . . .

[> [> Sue the Son of a Bitca!! -- Wisewoman, 18:38:34 01/03/03 Fri

Sounds like you've got cause, and witness, but hey, you've got the law degree so you must know something I don't.

;o) dub

[> [> [> Right, WW, I'd certainly be trying for constructive dismissal -- Rahael, 07:33:21 01/04/03 Sat

[> [> [> [> LOL! Another instance of differences in syntax -- dub ;o), 07:52:01 01/04/03 Sat

Hi Rah!
I think syntax is the right word. It took me a while to realize that "constructive" dismissal must refer to a firing that was planned and executed behind the scenes (a sort of plot "constructed" against someone).

In NA, "constructive" is mostly used in a positive sense, to indicate that something was extremely helpful in accomplishing, explaining, or learning something. So a constructive dismissal would be a good thing, leading to positive results for the one dismissed.

Help me out here, NA Scoobies. Am I hallucinating this?

dub ;o)

[> [> [> [> [> hehehe -- Rahael, 07:56:56 01/04/03 Sat

Oh, yeah. I'm pretty sure that Trade Union law in NA is very different from here in Britain, not just syntax!!!

If I'd been through what SK had been through, I'd be trying to argue that I'd been forced out of my job.

[> [> [> [> [> Yeah! Constructive dismissal sounds like the best thing for everybody involved. ;o) -- CW, 08:00:11 01/04/03 Sat

[> [> [> [> [> [> Plus -- CW, 08:32:26 01/04/03 Sat

Plotting to get someone fired or force them to quit isn't even a teensy bit illegal in this country. Assuming the person was in a union, it would be up to the union to negotiate or go on strike to protect the worker. Otherwise, it's go look for another job with a less crazy boss. The theory here is that someone like Shadowkat's ex-boss is such a jerk that he's doing as much harm to the business as he did to Shadowkat. And driving away competent workers is a pretty clear sign of incompetence in a boss. Here, making bad business decisions like putting Shadowkat's ex-boss in a position of authority is it's own reward.

[> [> [> [> Actually NY is a right-to-work state -- Sara, 09:05:48 01/04/03 Sat

sk is the lawyer, so correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that NY is a right-to-work state which means that without contracts, union or otherwise, management can fire someone at will, for no other reason than they don't like the color of your outfit, unless if falls under discrimination laws, and since sk did a proactive quitting (which I say yea, sk! great courage to stop letting someone treat you rotten!) any of those things probably don't apply.

sk, your boss sounds like a horrible person, and we're all going to be wishing much failure on him, I expect his karma will come back and bite him! Good luck with your job search, with your skill and smarts I'm sure that you'll find something good. If you're interested in relocating to the Capital District let me know and I'll start checking out the classifieds for you.

- Sara, saying come North, young woman!

[> [> [> [> [> Well, there's a case of syntax for ya! -- dub, 11:37:42 01/04/03 Sat

Where "right-to-work" means "may be frivolously fired at will with no recourse!"

;o)

[> [> [> [> [> [> Actually it refers to... -- CW, 11:46:04 01/04/03 Sat

Unions being able to negotiate contracts which contain provisions such that in order to work for the unionized business (right-to-work) you have to join the union.

and yes it's still semantic gobbledy-gook to confuse people about the real issue.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Actually it refers to... -- CW, 11:58:24 01/04/03 Sat

And it's so confusing that in reading over my explanation you'll probably be misled. In 'right-to-work' states the union can not force you to join the union to work. But, you give up all the privileges the union has by doing so.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Actually it refers to... -- Darby, 12:28:45 01/04/03 Sat

Then NY is not a right-to-work state. If you're in a union shop, you can be compelled to join the union. Been there, done that. Tennessee was a right-to-work state when I was constructing box springs many years ago between undergrad and graduate school.

Side issue, anyone really interested in losing weight? After working a summer in a non-air-conditioned factory, I was in the SMG range, almost Amy Acker, for slimness. A southern factory is also a great place to see, unfortunately, a continuation of the Southern plantation mentality.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Actually it refers to... -- shadowkat, 16:37:39 01/04/03 Sat

Unions do protect jobs. My crazy ex-company would love to fire some lazy workers who do nothing but talk and have become redundant in their jobs - but they can't b/c they are afraid of the union. I wasn't part of the Union - being a salaried employee. Only employees on the clock are part of the union. The company probably could have solved the problem by just taking everyone off the clock - but oh well.

I have mixed feelings about Unions. They can be incredibly helpful - pay everything for you, protect you against nasty bosses etc, but if the upper management of the union is corrupt or bureaucratic? It's no different than a dictatorship. The Union at my old company was a constant source of headaches for all involved.

What can protect you from "at-will" firing is two things:
1. a contract
or
2. the union

I think (I may be wrong, I'm not an actor) part of the reason there's an Actor's Union is to protect actors against firing and other items. If an actor signs a contract for three years for a tv show - assuming this contract works like other employment contracts - that actor is on that show for those three years. If the show kills their character off or fires them - they'll have to negotiate severance, pay them for time not served or the period of time the actor was counting on being employed.
I think (not sure if I'm right on this) - prior to the Actors Union - actors had a tough life. Several were basically slaves to the major studios - doing whichever movie the studio decided to put them in. If Carey Grant was employed by MGM studio - he couldn't do any films for anyone but MGM and he had to do the roles MGM picked for him. This I believe changed with the union.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Unions/Awful bosses -- Dariel, 22:54:56 01/04/03 Sat

...if the upper management of the union is corrupt or bureaucratic? It's no different than a dictatorship.

So true. But dictatorships can be overthrown. Unions are a lot like countries--if the citizens/members don't pay attention, the creeps will take over.

Your former boss sounds horrible. Guess I've been watching BtVS too long--after reading your description, I thought to myself "No one can be that evil. Must be a robot!"

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Ah, gotcha...t'anks! -- dub ;o), 13:04:02 01/04/03 Sat

[> [> [> [> [> Thanks and you're right, Sara and CW -- shadowkat (who just returned to NYC today!), 16:22:31 01/04/03 Sat

Thanks Sara - I'm willing to move just about anywhere btw. I'm single and have no pets or kids. Very easy to move. So you find anything?? Let me know!

Sara and CW are right guys. NY is a contract-at-will state. Most of the states in US are - part of the whole capitalist/free market system I'm afraid. This means your employer can fire you with or without cause.

When this all blew up - I went online and researched individual employment rights and unemployment law. My Dad wanted me to hire an attorney at first.
There's a few nasties that I left out of my story:
After five years of outstanding evaluations and high marks in all categories - under the retired boss, including an outstanding the first year under that ex-boss, in Dec 2001 - after I brought in the most permissions (doing far better than previous years), he gave me a barely passable review - it was based entirely on "personal" items and he tore apart my character - telling me I was rude and unpleasant to work with - this from a man that cursed in meetings and threw fits. (Concerned that others in the company saw me in this manner - I checked it out - nope. All my publishers complimented my performance and told me I was a pro. I have five references from this company - all of which have spoken highly of me. ) I protested the evaluation and got copies of all my past reviews and researched the issue. In 90 days he gave me a second evaluation - this took place after I discovered my Assoc was making double my salary. The second evaluation was also "passable" and again not based on anything that made sense. (I double-checked with other work collegues and they agreed). I confronted him with what my Assoc told me, but I could do nothing. The company is a privately owned company and the President of the company fully supported my boss. Also if I made waves - it could damage my career in the future. It all came down to a "he said"/"she said" scenerio.

According to the individual employment rights laws in NY - you can only get unemployment if you are laid off or can prove you were unreasonably fired. Companies avoid this - because for every past employee collecting unemployment - they have to pay taxes. It's not a good idea to get fired in any event. Looks bad.

After much thought, I decided that the best way out was to leave with my head held high. I have five references from the company. Good friends. Several have asked me to stay in touch. I realized the best revenge was to quit and make the rat do my job for a while, he might learn something. Which he's doing btw. According to a close friend who still works there - he had no plans to replace me - figured he could do it with the help of my assistant. Two weeks after I left - he asked my friend for my phone number because he didn't know how to handle one of the publisher contracts - it was just a publisher asking what our agreement was with them. My friend ignored him. And he had to figure out how to do it himself. More hell is ahead for him, hee hee.

Part of the reason I left, was the rage. I was so angry all the time and I was afraid I'd do something stupid and hurt myself and the company. I wanted to avoid that at all costs. Rage is never a good thing - it hurts you more than the person you hate. Instead - I wrote out detailed instructions on what I did, saved critical files to disk - handed these to my boss and double-checked to make sure my Assistant knew how to handle the database. I told my Boss I was leaving to explore outside opportunities. And I left with my head held high and no burned bridges. Suing him and/or the company as tempting as it was, wouldn't have helped - it would have only left a permanent stain on my work record and cost me a ton of money. And kept the pain going longer. This way...I can just move past it. One of my references - a Vice President at the company (my boss was also a vice president) congratulated me on not blowing up or losing my cool and being able to leave in such a dignified manner. She couldn't understand how I did it. Most people she'd known in a similar situation had blown up or self-destructed. (I didn't tell her my secret, one you all share - the Atpobtvs board and B C &S and a little show called Buffy the Vampire Slayer - these kept me sane. Every time my boss drove me nuts - I poured the pain and grief into a Buffy essay or post. I went to the boards. I discussed things like rage, vengeance, forgiveness and escaped. If it weren't for this board - I'm not sure I would have made my escape from the company as cooly and calmly as I did.)

At any rate - there is light at the end of the tunnel. I returned to NYC today and on my answering machine was a message from a magazine publisher who was excited about my resume and wants to set up an interview and talk to me about it. So fingers crossed - this might lead to something.

thanks again for the support everyone! SK

[> [> [> [> [> [> Getting even. -- Rufus, 01:50:47 01/05/03 Sun

You did the smart thing, you covered your ass. You didn't get fired and the "boss" would look rather demented as the only anecdotal evidence to your supposed flaws as an employee. Learn from the experience that you can move on and getting even, though great to think about, rarely makes anyone feel any better. You may be broke but you are free of this toxic person, the best revenge is no revenge, go about living life like you best know how, I highly doubt your boss is a happy camper and will move on to the next thing to bitch and gripe about now that you are gone. Just remember shit rolls downhill, and you are no longer at the bottom of "that" hill.....good luck in the interview...:)

[> [> [> [> [> [> Good luck, SK! -- dream, 12:17:50 01/06/03 Mon

Personal horror story - I left my mutual-fund trading job mostly because my boss was, well, crazy. Our office was in his apartment building. He would call down to us from his bedroom, where he would be smoking pot in his bathrobe while we tried desperately to keep his business together with absolutely no background or training and a serious understaffing problem. If anything had gone wrong,m he would ask his usual question "Who should I yell at? He would throw things, scream, curse, insult me and my co-workers (who included his ex-boyfriend) in ways that I couldn't possibly repeat - then an hour later he would ask if anyone wanted to go out for dinner, like nothing had happened. He usually left his dog in our care all day, like we had nothing else to do. Keep in mind I was wokring EVERY day, rarely taking even Sundays off, staying late every night, even sleeping in his guest room on nights when I had worked until midnight. He also expected me to take time out of running his damned company to do things like check up on his order of porn videos that hadn't come in. Speaking of porn, when he was in a good mood, he liked to send me very graphic gay porn in attachments with messages like - "This is very important - please see to this immediately." Probably enough for a sexual harassment suit there, although the day I knew I could own his company if I wanted to sue was the time he called our reps at a trust company to discuss business. I was finishing up a call with a client, and wouldn't be joining the call for a few minutes. (Shocking behavior alert - please avert your eyes if you haven't worked for a maniac) He told them I would be available for the conference call as soon as I finished being f---ed by the dog. That was the day I realized that I was in an emotionally abusive situation and had to get out no matter what the financial consequences. I felt bad leaving my co-worker alone in the madness, but I left anyway, temped for a while, and then took this job. God, even just typing this, I've gotten so overwrought my hands are shaking. (Did I mention my shockingly lousy pay - or the fact that all three of the people he hired to replace me were paid more than I was?)

Oh, wait, this was supposed to be about you :)

Sorry - I get carried away when I think about that situation. Anyway, I just wanted to sympathise - let you know that you will get over this, quitting was the RIGHT thing to do, and you will find work where you are valued. When that happens, you will probably find that it takes some work on your part to put away the defensive structurs you've built up just to survive that job. My thoughts are with you.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Thanks for sharing that Dream -- shadowkat, 13:54:23 01/06/03 Mon

You did have a sexual harrassment suit by the way.
But i'm just glad you got out. Your situation sounds truly nightmarish. Until you're in a horrible situation - you don't realize how impossible it really is to do things like sue or fight back or even get out. The law isn't as helpful in this regard as one might think.

Sounds like you really do understand. Most days I think I'm past it, that I no longer feel the rage or pain, then it comes back and I have to fight it off all over again. At least I'm no longer having the nightmares - had them for at least a month after quitting. Am I a bad person for being unable to forgive him? It is a question that haunts me a bit. The whole situation haunts and confuses me, because I often wonder if I did something to cause it and struggle not to blame myself for what happened. Perhaps that's why I've found myself so embroiled in discussions on forgiveness and guilt and vengeance on the boards and written essays on them. I've also learned that is very important not to look for one's identity through one's work or a job. Sometimes it really is just a job. Probably why Selfless and Anya's story really touched me this year.

Regarding corporate bullies - it appears to be a wide-spread problem. My father has a friend in New Zealand who is writing a book on "corporate bullying". Her book is about how many bosses in corporations across the globe get away with bullying their employees. She has lung ephemsma and is on the short list for a lung transplant so she is hurrying to get the book finished. Dad promised to email her about my story. If she contacts me, I may ask if anyone would be interested in sending her information about their own hells. Haven't heard from her yet. But I like the idea.

Oh and good luck to you as well!

SK

PS: That job I mentioned didn't come through. But I have hope that I'll find something else soon. Even ate that herring on New Years as recommended by ponygirl for good luck.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Guilt and forgiveness and so on -- dream, 06:57:53 01/07/03 Tue

I know what you mean - I think I found Willow's fury at Warren not justifiable, but understandable, because he was, first and foremost, a bully. Willow, having been bullied as a young geek, presumably still has a hot button marked "bullies." What hit me in that torture scene was her need to break down his utter lack of empathy. She wanted him to understand what he had done, to feel what he had inflicted, to reveal some sort of remorse or even just weakness. I know that desire; I know that I didn't want to see my boss hurt, particularly - I would have gotten no pleasure out of seeing him in physical pain pain - but I would have greatly enjoyed seeing him forced to see himself the way I saw him, forced to feel appropriate remorse, forced to feel, in fact, gut-wrenching guilt. Because, strangely, I felt guilt, as you seem to, even though you know it's completely absurd. (In fact, that's exactly what the otherwise-somewhat-illogical gypsy curse was all about, wasn't it? Or D'Hoffryn's vengeance philosophy - don't go for the kill if you can go for the pain?) Also, it's so hard to forgive if the person doesn't want your forgiveness, doesn't feel that he has done anything wrong - doesn't count even your forgiveness as being worth anything, because it comes from you, and you are so far beneath him. And people want to forgive, if possible, it's healing, it allows you to put things in the past. How do you forgive if your forgiveness isn't wanted? I don't know. I am beginning to think forgiveness is a gift - meaningless unless given and received. In other words, forgiveness can't be one-sided. If you can't forgive, that may be why. Try not caring instead. Letting go. It WILL happen, slowly.

Good luck.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Guilt and forgiveness and so on -- Arethusa, 09:45:19 01/07/03 Tue

Regarding feeling guilt-one of the definitions of guilt is: "feelings of culpability especially for imagined offenses or from a sense of inadequacy: SELF-REPROACH." (Mirriam Webster). Perhaps, when someone wrongs us we want them to admit they-and only they-were wrong, so we would not feel that our own weaknesses contributed to being mistreated. And if the person doesn't even care enough to want your forgiveness, that reinforces one's feeling of weakness and culpability.
But-maybe-perhaps-the only person that really needs forgiveness is the wronged person, who needs to recover or gain the self-confidence and self-esteem lost by being taken advantage of. Eventually, the evil bosses, if they ever see the error of their ways, will have to forgive themselves for being bad people, and decide from then on to act differently (like Angel). They, too, must learn to let go. Their decision to change cannot hinge on their victims' forgiveness, which might never be given, and their victims' healing cannot depend on their bosses' acceptance of forgiveness, which also might never come.

Arethusa, cautiously and ungrammatically butting in, and hoping to not offend.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> no offense taken -- dream, 10:43:20 01/07/03 Tue

I think you may be right.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Well said - both of you. -- shadowkat, 13:30:32 01/07/03 Tue

It's funny - I mentioned what I wrote to a friend last night and they said to get that out of my mind immediately. I was not to blame. It had zip to do with me. But I think you explained perfectly the root of that absurd feeling of guilt the victim feels coupled with this odd desire to forgive and inability to do so.

When I quit - I told my boss it was water under the bridge, we'd both move on. He never really apologized to me. He said and I quote:" I'm sorry we weren't able to make things work." Which I guess may have been his way of apologizing.
I don't know. The problem with these things is it's never simple. Angel the Series gets that across rather well - I think it's why I found the scenes between Angel and Holtz so fascinating. Holtz didn't want Angel's forgiveness and Angel knew he'd never get Holtz's. Yet in Benediction - they oddly appeared to reach some sort of understanding.
(One spoiled by Holtz's suicide but there all the same.)
In Btvs we see a similar scenerio with Spike and Buffy where Spike tells her he doesn't have the words, sorry doesn't work nor can he quite say forgive me. Don't quite get it with Willow - although we get close with Willow and Andrew - where Andrew says we're even - you killed my best friend. And Willow says - "Do you think that gave me satisfaction?" It didn't.

I think you're right - the best we can do is move on. And forgive ourselves for not being "perfect"? I don't know.
The experience left a stain of shame on me and I'm still struggling to get it out, I guess. It's better now...than it was. Each day it gets a little better. The stain fades.

PS:That job interview I was talking about? Well it popped up again. Apparently the person they were going to hire might not work out. So we'll see. Job interview is on Thurs.

Sk (thanks for the support)

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Well said - both of you. -- Arethusa, 08:06:15 01/08/03 Wed

How funny-I was thinking of those two scenes, as well as personal experience, while I typed.

Keeping fingers and toes crossed for your job search. Although it's a little hard to walk like this. :)

[> [> [> [> [> [> moving on is so the right thing to do -- Helen, 00:59:58 01/07/03 Tue

I had a similar experience to you, and spent six months so stressed and unhappy about the way my boss criticised my personality that it was starting to afect every facet of my life, including negatively impacting on my marriage. Decided to leave, with no job to go to, but even unemployment was preferable to the mind games I faced every day. After six months temping in secretarial jobs, now very happy as an office manager in a great little firm.

Good luck, and congrats on your positive attitude - not easy I know from personal and painful experience.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Thank you for sharing -- shadowkat, 13:34:34 01/07/03 Tue

Your experience sounds very similar and you literally left for the same reasons I did. Thank you - it helps to know that it turned out okay for someone else. Makes me feel less alone.

SK

[> [> ever consider freelancing? (w/confession of vested interest) -- anom, 23:34:47 01/07/03 Tue

First the conflict-of-interest disclosure: I'm on the board of the Editorial Freelancers Association.

So I'm not entirely disinterested in adding to the ranks of freelance writers & editors, & possibly to the membership of the EFA (not to mention keeping you in the NYC area, shadowkat!)! It can be very helpful for networking, & there's an email job list (for a little more than the regular membership). We also offer health insurance, although it's considerably more expensive than when you get it through an employer. You can find out more at our website.

Let me know if you're interested!

[> [> [> Re: ever consider freelancing? (w/confession of vested interest) -- shadowkat, 10:36:33 01/08/03 Wed

I am interested but know nothing about how to get into freelancing. If you have any info, please send it on.

SK (And thanks!)

[> My boss is a cranky, old so-and-so. -- CW, 16:13:24 01/03/03 Fri

And since I've been retired and my own boss for awhlie, I don't get in trouble for saying that out loud.

Over the years from high school on, I did a wide variety of things. I've done everything from sweeping floors to bookkeeping, from arc welding to teaching at the University level, from working at a think tank to being a 'goodwill ambassador.'

Actually I was a pretty bad employee. I always showed up and did my job. But, things usually got done my way no matter what the boss said. I never got fired from any job. But, I did pull some things that would have gotten people working around me in serious trouble, if they'd tried to follow my example. Usually, I got hired for one reason, and then the boss found out he/she needed me much more for three other things. I once had a young high school drop-out come up to me and ask me how he could get and 'easy' job like I had. At the moment I was test running a program on some computerized industrial machinery, that I'd spent the last week writing. And at the moment the job did look simple. I was just standing there pushing a button while the machinery single-stepped through the program. In fact, I was checking to make sure I hadn't done something stupid in programming that would cause even a teensy-weensy wreck of the machinery. I asked the kid how much math he'd taken in high school. He told me, 'a lot... Up to algebra 1.' Then I told him honestly that it would take him years more of math to begin to understand how the machinery had to move. The idea was of course to suggest to him to go back to school while he was still young enough. But, I suspect it just made him mad.

Having an extremely broad educational background like I had can help, but not everybody can have a great job. Even I got bored (or overstressed) and changed jobs a few times. Sometimes a truly easy job can be mind-numbing. Sometimes a nervewracking job, like test-running hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of equipment, can seem like easy, fun work if you don't understand what's at stake.

[> My $0.02 (an hour raise) -- Tyreseus, 18:48:37 01/06/03 Mon

You know, I genuinely love my job. As the editor of a small gay and lesbian magazine, I get the chance to write daily, invites to all the best events, the feeling that I'm slowly changing the world (or at least inspiring others to do so), I meet tons of interesting people, and my co-workers are closer to me than my blood family.

But if I had to choose something I hated, it would be the extensive hours (especially around deadlines) and the low pay. I'll never get rich in the position I'm in, but I'm loving every minute of it. I had a particularly horrible year working as a paper-pusher in the evil Corporate America - where the company downsized and I was asked to use my cum laude college degree not for the job I was initially hired for - but instead to be the office receptionist. I have great respect for receptionists, but I knew my talents were being wasted. I was depressed and felt like an automaton. I got out of the job (and the whole career field) ASAP. After working in hell, my new career (despite the pay cut, loss of benefits and grueling hours) is heaven.

New Crazy Giles Theory (Spoilers through 7.10) -- Finn Mac Cool, 20:32:06 01/02/03 Thu

How did Giles, if he really is Giles, survive the axe-blow to the head he got from a Harbinger? Well, I've got my own theories, but today I've decided to propose a crazy one:

Over the years Giles has been knocked unconscious many, many times. ME has drawn attention to this for jokes even. Was it just self-aware irony, or was there clever, Jossian foreshadowing at work? Maybe, after so many years of being knocked out, Giles head has grown resistent to all but the most powerful of blows, so the Harbinger's axe bounced off on contact with Giles's skull. Then I expect he went all Ripper and killed the Harbinger.

People seem to want crazy, and I've delivered!

[> LOL! Yes, its crazy -- Dochawk, 20:45:26 01/02/03 Thu

[> Crazy, yes. But I like it too!! ( Irish accent optional ) -- OnM, 21:19:34 01/02/03 Thu

[> I can see Giles Now.. 'BerserkerClaw!!' Wolvie style! -- neaux, 04:17:51 01/03/03 Fri

[> New Crazy ASH theory.. (season 2 dvd spoiler) -- ZachsMind, 14:22:54 01/03/03 Fri

I believe Anthony Stewart Head performs many of his scenes where we only see him from the waist up, without any pants. Be afraid. Be very afraid. Oh. And rocketlaunchers are more important to the success of the show than prosthetic pointy ears. You heard it here first boyo.

[> Re: New Crazy Giles Theory (Spoilers through 7.10) -- wiscoboy, 15:34:45 01/03/03 Fri

actually, does anyone remember if Giles "touched" anyone in the last ep? If not, maybe it isn't really him there, if you know what I mean.

[> [> Re: New Crazy Giles Theory (Spoilers through 7.10) -- Finn Mac Cool, 16:12:13 01/03/03 Fri

He didn't touch anything, but if you're thinking that he's the First Evil now, I think either the Scoobies or the proto-Slayers would have noticed by now. My more serious theory is that the First Evil has gotten someone to build a new talisman to summon up Giles as a manifest spirit, like th ones from Lessons.

[> Even Crazy Giles Theory (Spoilers through 7.10) -- luvthistle1, 04:06:43 01/04/03 Sat

...at the moment ,..he turn into Glory! and kill them all for messing up his hair. If you think about, that is the real reason he move back to England. To keep them safe. When Giles kill Ben/Glory , who was immortal . he became Glory host. the ubervamp wasn't running from the daylight, but from Giles/Glory.

[> [> Re: Even Crazy Giles Theory (Spoilers through 7.10) -- wiscoboy, 07:32:19 01/04/03 Sat

that's a different theory....I gotta go with FMC's rationale, I think Giles is a manisfestational image of himself..remember when Willow was talking to "evil" Cassie? "Cassie" knew Willow as if intimately, giving 'it' the opportunity to deceive her(although Willow finally figured it out).

Uh-oh, now I've done it... ( *** No spoilers, but maybe just as scary *** ) -- OnM, 21:07:18 01/02/03 Thu

Friends, Buffyphiles, fellow wackos...

;-)

Now, I haven't re-watched Restless for at least a year, maybe longer. But, since it seems that we may be going
towards the last year of the show (in it's current form, anyway-- as to spinoffs, who knows, right?), I had the sudden
urge to watch both Primeval and Restless again tonight. It was pretty cool, as usual, but after all I've
seen them both at least 6 or 7 times before.

However, for some damn reason, what I noticed this time around never jumped out at me until just this evening, and
now I'm having a little sorta wiggins that I may have stumbled onto actual Jossian proof that I'm right about the monks
making Dawn from both Buffy and Faith. (Deliberately or not, I dunno, but machts nichts...)

So, you guys read and tell me. The quoted parts are courtesy Psyche, from the shooting scripts respectively for
Graduation Day Pt II and Restless. The bold and underlined portions are emphasis I've placed. There is
also a comment by me here and there.

Keep in mind Joss has already publicly stated that 'Little Miss Muffett' was intended to be a reference to Dawn. But is
Dawn also 'Ms. Kitty Fantastico?' Recall that in Willow's dream in Restless, we start out by
wondering 'what her real name is'?

Go for it...

*******

Buffy's/Faith's 'dream' from Graduation Day Pt II:

INT. FAITH'S APARTMENT - DAY

Buffy is on her feet, in her street clothes. Entering the room to find it empty.

The window is still broken. Clothes and weapons are laid out on the couch - there are packing boxes everywhere.
Moving day. A cat jumps onto the bed. Buffy looks at it.

BUFFY: Who's gonna look after him?

Faith crosses behind Buffy, replies:

FAITH: It's a she. And aren't these things supposed to take care of themselves?

BUFFY: A higher power, guiding us?

FAITH: I'm pretty sure that's not what I meant.

She turns to the window.

BUFFY: There's something I'm supposed to be doing.

FAITH: Oh yeah. Miles to go. Little Miss Muffet counting down from seven three oh.

BUFFY: Oh, great. Riddles.

FAITH: Sorry. It's my head. Lotta new stuff.

She looks out the window. In the foreground, the cat on the bed dissolves to Faith herself lying unconscious then
back.

FAITH: They're never gonna fix this, are they?

BUFFY: What about you?

Faith turns back, indicates her face.

FAITH: Scar tissue. It fades, it all fades.

Buffy looks down at her hand. For a moment, Faith's knife is in her palm, then gone.

Faith moves toward Buffy.

FAITH: You wanna know the deal? Human weakness. It never goes away. Even his.

BUFFY: Is this your mind or mine?

They both smile at that -- Faith even laughs a little.

FAITH: Beats me. (a beat) Gettin' towards that time.

Buffy looks around her, at the boxes.

BUFFY: How are you gonna fit all this stuff?

FAITH: Not gonna. It's yours.

BUFFY: I can't use all this.

Faith stands before her, looks at her with quiet regard.

FAITH: Just take what you need.

Buffy nods.

FAITH: You ready?

She puts her hand to Buffy's cheek.

*******

Buffy's 'dream' from Restless

INT. BUFFY'S BEDROOM - MORNING

Buffy WAKES suddenly -- it was only a bad dream... WIDEN to see she's in her bedroom at home. She has made a
mess of the sheets in her nightmare.

REVERSE ANGLE: BUFFY. Looks at the mess of a bed from the doorway. We find TARA standing next to her.
Tara is completely poised, quite -- clearly on top of whatever's going on here.

BUFFY: Faith and I just made that bed...

TARA: For who?

BUFFY: I thought you were here to tell me. The guys aren't here, are they? We were gonna hang out, watch movies.

TARA: You lost them.

BUFFY: No, I... I think they need me to find them.

She looks at the clock by the bed:

ANGLE: THE CLOCK reads 7:30. Buffy looks worried about the time.

BUFFY: It's so late...

TARA: Oh, that clock's completely wrong. (True-- it's now a whole year later. --OnM)

She produces a deck of tarot cards, tries to hand it to Buffy.

TARA: Here.

(Note: The card is Manus, The Hands. Note the [indirect] reference to Faith's hand-- she touches Buffy's cheek in
the prior dream, and Buffy seeing Faith's knife in her [Buffy's] hand, which then disappears. --OnM)

BUFFY: I'm never gonna use those.

Tara moves closer, whispers in Buffy's ear:

TARA: You think you know. What's to come, what you are... You really have no idea.

ANGLE: THE BEDROOM

The bed is made now. It's very still.

BUFFY: I gotta find the others.

TARA: Be back before dawn...

Buffy leaves.

*******

And just because I can...

I could leave it at that, but why should I? After all, I have a reputation for always offering value-added-ness in my
posts. You either get more quality Buffyverse-related quasi-philosophical entertainment, or extra paper to line the
birdcage with. How can you lose?

;-)

Part of the wiggins-inducing thing is that I now wonder whether I caught these Restless references subliminally
and then later on plugged in other data as the show rolled on to reinforce the original subconscious impression. As
proof (no, not really, no proof-- just showing how damn sneaky the subconscious can be) I thought I'd drop in this
short little chapter from a fanfic I started to write the summer after *The Gift* aired. Naturally, I never got to finish it--
(~sigh~) -- but the basic concept was to follow Buffy through an imagined passage through the afterlife at the same
time the rest of the Scoobies were dealing with the loss of her back in the world of the living.

There was a whole, really cool (I thought so, anyway!) major sub-arc involving Faith, and so I thought I'd start the
story out with a series of alternating visits to Buffy's new 'heaven' and the mortal world she left behind. In this
chapter, Buffy (?) is having a very interesting 'dream', which then takes her... well, you'll see.

Be kind, please, this was my very first attempt to do a serious fanfic, and I haven't changed anything here since I
originally wrote this, other than a few little typos. I confess I really did get a kick out of writing what appears to be one
very shippy intro, then subverting it into something else. There was also a mirror-image sort of chapter later on after
this one with the same scene written from Faith's POV, which then went to a much darker and scarier place for her,
but eventually ended up bringing her to a newer, better place.

Hope you enjoy, or at least get a decent giggle. Or a wriggle. Remember, it's not my fault-- stuff just appears in
my head and I write it down.

*******

"These really do smell good."

"Hummh?"

"The sheets. Summer sheets, I think you called them. Course, they would be, you being a Summers, and them being
your sheets and all."

Faith paused and chuckled to herself. Sunlight was streaming in the window, impossibly warm and golden, and there
was the faint, trebley sound of some kind of wind chimes from outside the wall of the room. It was so peaceful here, it
was actually pretty simple to see why people sought this out.

"Now I know this is your dream, I'm punning. God knows, I don't pun." She rolled over on her side, facing the
tiny blond who was lying on her back, the light, fragrant sheet barely disguising the sleek, smooth curves partly hidden
underneath. Buffy blinked, stared at the ceiling, as a puzzled look began to furrow her brow.

"Wait a minute-- if this is my dream, then why were we just in your point of view? Who's the director here?" Buffy
turned on her right side, facing Faith, whose soft, dark brown hair was cascading down loosely around her face and
shoulders, and tried her best to ignore the fact that she was naked, the sheet pulled down to her hips and waist.

"There is no director. Not as far as I can tell. There seems to be a whole big bunch of them, and they keep going in
different directions all at once. Not surprising a girl could lose her way, ya know."

"There has to be someone in charge. Otherwise there would be chaos, there would be no point to anything. Why are
we naked?"

Faith laughed. Buffy was struck by how free of bitterness the laugh was, how unlikely that seemed. Why was this
making sense? Dreams don't make sense, they're just dreams.

"That's your mother talking. You and I know better, don't we?"

"Hey!" Buffy feigned anger, somehow only slightly disconcerted by the fact that Faith seemed to be inside her
head and reading her thoughts. "Stop that! Can't I have some privacy? I mean, we're already naked and in bed
together, isn't that enough?"

"Like I said, it's your dream." Don't we both wish that we could be your mother, huh? No more Slayer crap, no stupid
death wishes, no destiny other than..." Her voice trailed off, as she fell into pensiveness. "Death wishes.. damn, why did
I bring that up? Oh, yeah, that's right."

Faith reached out her hand, gently approaching Buffy's face with the open palm. Buffy started slightly and drew back
several inches, fixing her eyes on Faith's.

"What are you doing? We might be naked, but we aren't lovers, you know..." Faith paused in her reach, but didn't
withdraw her hand.

"I just wanted to thank you for taking out the knife. Not that I didn't deserve getting it stuck there, and I'm not really
too sure about the gutting-me-like-a-fish part when you did finally yank it, but, I'm feeling charitable, so what the hell."
Faith moved her outstretched palm in a faintly caressing motion. "Please? Can I? I'm not asking to be your soul sister,
that isn't my call."

"This is really weird. You're so right about the dreams. The Slayer strength really doesn't begin to make up for the
dreams."

"So, it's no? Could be your last chance. Going once... twice..."

Buffy sighed deeply.

"OK. If it means that much to you."

Faith smiled, slowly moved to place her hand on Buffy's cheek. Her skin felt cool, soothing, like some softly vibrating
energy was present, flowing out of it and along into her. A small shiver went through her body, seemed to radiate
down and away from the touch. Buffy closed her eyes. There was only the sound of the chimes, the rustle of the sheets,
and Faith's voice.

"No, B, you still aren't getting it. It's what it means to you." The hand retreated, the coolness remaining.

"I'm waking up, now."

Buffy opened her eyes, the familiar eggshell colored ceiling obligingly appearing as she did so. The room was aglow
with sunlight, almost too intensely, even for Southern California. Slowly sitting up in the bed, she looked over to her
right. No one was there.

"But of course there isn't." she muttered quietly to herself, pushing back the sheet, swinging her legs over the side of
the bed and standing up. "Story of my life-- I meet them, they leave me. I..." She froze, stock still.

"My life... I..." Looking around at the impossibly normal looking, normal feeling room, her bedroom, her... perfect
bedroom, just like she had imagined it but never quite got to make it. The fantasy of a 15 year old girl, long before fate
and demons and her calling as Slayer. Before...

"...my death. Oh God..."

She backed up the few small steps she had taken away from the bed and sat back down on it. It wasn't a dream,
everything had unexpectedly flashed back into her mind in mere seconds as she had been standing there. The portal--
the hot, blinding light, the intense pain, the sudden cessation of that pain-- then a new, softer light, cool and soothing
like Faith's hand on her cheek. Then nothingness.

And now this, here. She looked around the room, as if expecting it to disappear any moment, but it remained
obstinately solid, as tactile and real as the bed beneath her now.

"OK, seriously trying not to freak out now..."

She became aware of another sound, coming from outside the closed door of the bedroom, someone's voice, familiar...
barely audible, but familiar. Too familiar. Her heart, already speeding, began racing, she could feel her pulse almost
ringing in her eardrums. The voice came again, louder and far more distinct this time, followed by a gentle knocking on
the door.

"Honey? Are you awake yet? They told me to be here about this time. Can I come in?"

The room was fading from view. Everything was turning white, the ringing in her ears had become a rushing ocean
noise.

"Oh, no, Summers, you are not passing out, you're not, you're getting up, you will move those legs and..."

"Sweetheart, it's OK. Everything is all right. Please let me in, I've been through this, I can help you." This time the
words seemed to appear right inside her head, like the time she had become telepathic from the demon's spell. It was
too, too, much all at once.

"No way..."

She tried to stand up again but her legs seemed to have no working muscles in them, and folded under her, throwing
her body back on the bed, the mattress making a tiny squeaking noise at her abrupt intrusion. Some now oddly distant
sound, which she knew to be her own voice, echoed off the walls of the room as consciousness drained from her
senses, and her head fell back on the pillows.

"Mother..."

*******

[> OnM interesting, well-written, but in my opinion still wack -- Dochawk, 21:41:57 01/02/03 Thu

[> Very cool! Loads of spec, spoilers up to BotN -- HonorH, 22:01:11 01/02/03 Thu

First off, I love your attempt at fanfiction, as you put it. Just gorgeous, and there's enough there for a small, self-contained vignette in the dream sequence. Which is, btw, very Jossian.

Second, I think Dawn really could be both Faith and Buffy inside. Where else would the dark hair come from? Well, okay, Hank, but since when does he count for anything?

A couple other random neural firings:

1. About "Little Miss Muffet, counting down from 7-3-0"--most people seem to think that's the two years between GDII and "The Gift". But the phrase is that it's "Little Miss Muffet"--a reference to Dawn--doing the counting. So what if it has been Dawn doing the countdown from her first appearance? 730 days from her first appearance to the First declaring itself in the basement with Spike . . .

2. More "Restless" echoes: First Joyce "in the walls". There's the knocking on the walls in CwDP, and also Buffy's dreams. I'm leaning more and more toward Joyce being The Real Deal. Second, Spike in a cruciform position both in Giles' dream and when the First was using his blood to raise the Turok-han.

3. "The Slayer." "The First." Interesting little dialogue between Buffy and Dream!Tara. At the end of her dream, Buffy rejects the First Slayer in favor of her family and friends, stating that the First Slayer, who lives in the hunt, the kill, alone, isn't the source of her. What if the First is the ultimate source of the Slayer? What if it had to create the Slayer in order for there to be balance? That would explain it killing potential Slayers while jabbering about it being sick of the "balancing the scales" thing. So Buffy must ultimately reject being the Slayer. She's embraced her Slayerhood better this year than ever, taking and using the power given to her with a sense of true purpose. Seems like a good thing. If Buffy gives up all power voluntarily, I wonder if that could foil the First's plans.

4. On a related note: I've been wondering why Buffy seems to be last on the First's list. Theoretically, Buffy can no longer pass on the Calling, as she's already passed it to Faith. So why keep her alive while killing the potentials? Why not just off her--and the First has had at least one opportunity to do so--and make its job all the easier? Then it would almost have carte blanche to keep killing potentials and eventually Faith. Why save Buffy for last?

I've got a theory: if the First kills off all the potentials, then Faith, there will be nowhere for Faith's Slayerhood to go but back into Buffy. All the power of the Slayer, concentrated in one uber-Slayer. Now, why precisely the First would want to do this is a little beyond me, but if my #3 theory holds, and the First is the ultimate source of the Slayer, I'd be wondering just what an uber-Slayer would be like.

Anyway, I'm just a mass of theories tonight. Fun, huh?

[> [> 730 -- Dochawk, 00:27:38 01/03/03 Fri

Joss has told is in interviews (and Marti and SMG also) that 730 in fact refers to the days until Buffy dies (2 years from GD to the Gift). Little Miss Muffet in fact refers to Dawn. In an interview in SFX Magazine, SMG relates that she was confused by the dream and didn't know how to play it. It was then Joss told her the grand scheme for the next two years and explained to her both the arrival of Dawn (SMG recommended MT for the part, they were on a soap together) and her impending death. At that point she was only the second person to know about this.

[> Been wondering about Miss Kitty -- dream, 12:19:47 01/03/03 Fri

When was the last time we saw her? It seems strange for her to be dropped so easily. Nothing ever gets dropped. And she plays such a big role in Restless. The cat is definitely on my list of "loose strings to be tied up by the end of the series or I'll be really upset."

I've got too much time on my hands...

[> [> Re: Been wondering about Miss Kitty -- JM, 20:20:50 01/03/03 Fri

Just like my sister, the girls go caught with a cat on campus. They turned it over to Willow's parents sometime after "Family." They were amused and sympathetic, but took it on Willow's mom's sabitical S6 when she got a grant for study in Italy. Then she got a temp job at a university. Ira's retired. He's working on the villa. Just fan want, but I like it.

[> Fine job -- Cactus Watcher, 12:21:57 01/03/03 Fri

Plus I'm aways interested in stories in which there are at least as many half-naked slayers as there are half-naked Spikes.

I'm still pretty sure Kitty Fantasico in the dream represents the Slayer, not necessary just The First Slayer or Buffy, but the whole package. It's why the cat and Faith exchange places on the bed. I have always sort of looked on the spirit of the Slayer as something that dwells in the young woman and then moves on when she dies. But, I've never quite figured out how than meshes with Buffy's deaths and rebirths as strong as ever, other than the haunting refrain OnM quoted, "You think you know, what's to come, what you are... I'm guessing we still don't know everything Buffy is let alone what the future of the slayer will be.

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