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You're Welcome - Any Consequences? (SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS) -- Patrick Lewis, 20:51:13 02/18/04 Wed

Why doesn't anybody care about Cordelia's death? This is so weird.
Before, in BtVS and AtS, every time a character died, the other characters were sad for a couple of eps after - e.g. Jenny (in S2), Joyce (in S5), Doyle (in S1)...
And now that Cordelia is gone, Angel and co don't talk about it. Why?
Actually, if you missed You're Welcome, you wouldn't know that Cordelia is dead.


Replies:

[> One reason: -- Finn Mac Cool, 21:11:27 02/18/04 Wed

Cordelia was pretty much dead, anyway. She went into a mystical coma that was quite likely permanent. Cordy went comatose six months ago, and, since then, the Fang Gang's grown used to not having her around and the fact that they'd probably never see her again. Think of it like a frog in warm water. You throw him in right away, he dies. But, if you put him in when it's cold and slowly heat it up, he'll live. Same thing here; Cordelia's coma prepared the Fang Gang so that her death didn't take the toll it would have pre-coma.


[> [> Re: One reason: -- Athena, 00:06:47 02/19/04 Thu

I'm sure they do feel it.

For a long time, my cello teacher, a friend and mentor who has been in my life since I was eight, was battling cancer. She was such a tough person that I thought she would make it, but some part of me acknowledged that she might not. Twice she beat it off c completely, getting a clean bill of health and then after the second time, she suddenly started coughing and was readmitted into the hospital. She died about a week later.

This was the first time someone I was close to died. When I heard about, I expected myself to burst out crying or for the world to seem to be painted gray. It didn't work that way. Yes, I mourned but it wasn't the only thing I experienced. Even the day I found out, I laughed at things and enjoyed stuff. I guess some part of me was already prepared.

Death doesn't always make the world seem horrible, nor does it mean that the person who died was unimportant to you. Everytime someone dies, it seems a little bit different from the last. Then after a time, you continue to go about life the best way you can.


[> [> [> Re: One reason: -- Hand up your..., 06:44:38 02/19/04 Thu

Their is no recollection because the writers and producers don't want to alienate their target audience (casual viewers with no backstory) by showing the grief that the other characters feel for her death.
Let's quietly brush her under the carpet and get on with the hot werewolf momma.
Or maybe just cast a forgetful spell...
yawn.


[> [> [> [> One Little Mention -- Claudia, 10:55:34 02/19/04 Thu

After Doyle's death in S1, both Angel and Cordelia seemed to be grieving over his death . . . at least at the beginning of "Parting Gifts", until Wesley's arrival and a new case occupied their thoughts.

Despite the fact that Cordelia had been in a coma since late S4, could it have really hurt ME to have the other characters show some kind of reaction to the news of her death in . . . say, "Why We Fight", before moving on to the new case?


[> Re: You're Welcome - Any Consequences? (SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS) -- mucifer, 07:08:38 02/19/04 Thu

I totally agree. This has happened since episode 2 of Buffy. Xander and Willow's best friend Jesse died and it was never mentioned again. That absolutely drives me nuts. The shows are so well written but they are very flakey, with a few exceptions, regarding death. I guess they dont want to spend too much time with the grief but I think they could throw in a line or 2 here or there about the dead people.


[> [> Whedon's Experiences -- Claudia, 10:09:36 02/20/04 Fri

"I guess they dont want to spend too much time with the grief but I think they could throw in a line or 2 here or there about the dead people."

I wonder if this has to do with Whedon's own experiences with death.

The Rescue to be Cancelled!?!? -- Rochefort, 21:35:14 02/18/04 Wed

Rumors were flying once again Wednesday night that MOLOJ execs were cancelling The Rescue Revisted beFORE it's final two episodes were posted.

"At this time," Pony, a MOLOJ spokesperson said, "There are no plans to not plan to finish The Rescue Revisted. I assure you that our creative team is deep in...creative meetings...and will be creating shortly." When pressed for a time line, Pony would only respond, "Pretty soon. I think."

Shortly after the posting of the twelth installment of the The Rescue Revisited, co-producer CJL made a public statement to the effect that he was in the process of writing Chapter 13 thereby quashing any possibly divergent efforts. Now, months later, MOLOJ supporters and detractors alike have seen no sign of the near forgotten adventure, and network and fan support for the quirky and self indulgent series is waning.

While rumors say that the core MOLOJ team and MOLOJ in general are in disarray and despair because of the recent cancellation of Angel and the tanking of the Dean campaign, Pony tried to assuage fears, "I haven't heard from Rochefort or CJL in months. For all I know, they could be dead. If that's the case, any of us could be next. Especially you, yeah the geeky little reporter making the lewd gestures at me. Have you SEEN my spin kicks?"

"Listen," said Pony, who has kept everything but the girl, "CJL said he would write the next chapter, and I have faith that he'll do it. Will I write the thirteenth chapter if he doesn't? I was given explicit instructions that CJL would be writing the final chapter, but if he's dead or something, I'm not going to cry about it, I'll just write it. Of course. SOMEbody has to save the world." While the Daily Telegraph is reporting that Pony's voice caught in a strangled sob when she spoke of CJL's possible death, this report is widely considered partially sort of fabricated.


Replies:

[> But The Rescue DVD pre-orders are through the roof! -- Pony, 06:29:16 02/19/04 Thu



[> [> I want muppets from this too! -- Ann, 06:38:42 02/19/04 Thu



[> [> [> ATPo: the Muppet episode! -- Masq, 16:53:27 02/19/04 Thu

Who wants to go with it??!!


[> [> [> [> Oooh, me, me!!! -- Rob, 21:43:28 02/19/04 Thu



[> [> [> [> *jumps up and down with excitement* mememememe! -- angel's nibblet, 00:07:39 02/20/04 Fri

Ya with me on this one Jane? Only if we have muppet unicorns too!!!

On a side note, I do remember sometime in the distant past Joss promising us an all-muppet episode, but I always assumed it was one of those things he would never do, like the all-naked episode....

it could still happen though, right ;-)?

*has momentary disturbing thought of Lorne naked*

*shudder*


[> [> [> [> [> Oh, muppet unicorns! -- Jane, 03:36:22 02/20/04 Fri

Now, there's something that I could get on my high horse about. I'm in, as long as they don't make me look like one of the old guys in the balconey! I'm thinking more along the lines of a svelte Miss Piggy. After Smile Time, though, I have serious concerns about Demon Muppets...


[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Oh, muppet unicorns! -- angel's nibblet, 15:39:09 02/20/04 Fri

After Smile Time, though, I have serious concerns about Demon Muppets...

I know what you mean Jane, I amy never be able to watch Sesame Street again without wondering if Kermit is possessed and trying to brainwash me... then again I thought that before so I guess nothing's changed!


[> Uh, guys? -- cjl, 07:28:27 02/19/04 Thu

I'm writing chapter 13. Believe me. It's just that: (1) I've been kind of busy lately, and haven't been able to devote uninterrupted time to the project, and (2) with all the fascinating posts on the board these days devoted to, you know, actual discussions of the programs, I thought I'd wait until sweeps finished up before we resumed our little melodrama.

The ATP board isn't going anywhere--at least not for awhile. (Right Masq?) When The Rescue comes back, Rochefort (if he's had the time to work on his own chapter) and I can probably post Chapter 13 and the conclusion in one shot.

It'll be worth the wait. I promise.


[> [> Like fine cheese it will be all the better for the aging -- Pony, 08:47:48 02/19/04 Thu



[> [> Right, cjl! -- Masq, 16:47:07 02/19/04 Thu

Show or no show, ATPo will be around. Although, speaking personally, I hope it's "with show".


[> [> Midnight is busy polishing his horn.. -- Jane, 23:47:14 02/19/04 Thu

we're both waiting patiently to see if we're still part of the narrative! Also saying many prayers to the PTB that the show will go on to season 6. All together now: OOOMMMM, give us season 6..


[> [> [> *nibblet and Morningstar join in the chanting* OMMMMM...give us season 6.... -- angel's nibblet, 00:15:04 02/20/04 Fri



[> [> meanwhile, how about a retroactive interpolated interprelude to tide you over? -- anom, nervous about 1st fanfic effort, 00:09:24 02/23/04 Mon

Chapter 8A: You Can't Get Here From There, or, Virtual Realty [follows Ch. 8]

[23:20:07 01/10/04 Sat Scene: The ATPoBtVS chat room. Comfortable chairs scattered about, a few tables for cyber-chocolates & such, a closet in one corner for, um...time-outs. anom sits in 1 of the chairs, keeping an eye on the door between reading the ATPo board & checking other windows.]

>>Rochefort has joined room #ATPoBtVS
[anom] roche! hi!
Rochefort> hey anom.
[anom] how ya doin'?
Rochefort> o.k...went to a dance tonight, it was pretty lame. How about you?
[anom] something I haven't done in awhile--i went to the bottom line, club here in ny
[anom] they had a tribute to woody guthrie
Rochefort> sounds good.
[anom] it was! i'm glad i went...might not have another chance
Rochefort> how come?
[anom] looks like they might get evicted1
Rochefort> hope not.
[anom] yeah...guess we'll see
[anom] that's why i'm on so late--even for me
[anom] haven't seen you in here in a long time
Rochefort> well I've been kinda busy.
[anom] right, the essay--how's that coming?
Rochefort> huh? Oh yeah...I'm taking this weekend off from writing.
[anom] is that a good idea?
[anom] wait...from writing the essay, or the fanfic?
Rochefort> except the fanfic. And grad school applications, at least I'm TRYING to get those done.
[anom] oh...well, that's something
[anom] i've been enjoying the fic, btw--actually been a little conflicted, posting that you should work on the essay but impatient for the next ch.!
Rochefort> Thanks...you wanna be in it?
[anom] me?! y'know, i've been trying to decide if i want to "volunteer"...i mean, i *was* in the last one...not that i did all that much....
Rochefort> well which side would you want to be on?
[anom] oh, you mean i get a choice?
Rochefort> well, like you said, you're not exactly a major character, so it doesn't matter as much.
[anom] gee...thanks....
Rochefort> the bigger parts usually go to the writers...or, o.k., we write ourselves bigger roles. If you want to do more in the fic, why don't you write a chapter?
[anom] heh...sure...that'd work out
Rochefort> I say do it. your posts are well written, why not?
[anom] thanks, but they're just my opinions, this is diff't.
Rochefort> why?
[anom] let's just say fiction is not my...forte, roche
Rochefort> then what is?
[anom] puns! "forte, roche"--"rochefort"?
Rochefort> oh...heh
Rochefort> sorry, I'm kinda distracted.
[anom] as for which side, it looks like you're bringing the sides together anyway
Rochefort> um, yeah...kinda.
[anom] actually, i'm not sure i have a side...remember, i'm an independent operative, & after the payment problems for the original rescue, i'd need to be paid in advance this time!
Rochefort> well, you did get paid, didn't you?
[anom] yeah...eventually
[anom] heehee...that was a fun exchange2--"i'll fax you my contract"! & it all came out of jbone's jenny vs ethan thread! who'da thought the whole "rescue" thing would come up again there?
Rochefort> yeah, let alone be revisited--and now showing up in chat!
Rochefort> so if you were in it, you'd be a mercenary? Go with the high bidder?
[anom] well, not purely a mercenary...remember, i did give you a cut rate for "the rescue" because i was sympathetic to the cause @>)
Rochefort> yeah, don't think we didn't appreciate it, either...so how about this new mission?
[anom] well, getting paid still means *something*...can i count on it going any better this time? how's your budget these days?
[anom] got anything left, w/all the spending on helicopters, hired help, & antique furnishings for the chateau?...
Rochefort> I did kinda go on a binge...but that's just because we've gotten a major infusion of funds!
[anom] you did? hey, mazel tov!
Rochefort> so payment wouldn't be an issue...and if you submit your bill directly to me, I'll expedite it.
[anom] hmm! yeah, that'd help
[anom] but i would have other considerations...after all, i kinda have a vested interest in the real world
Rochefort> why?
Rochefort> what's it doing for you?
[anom] um, i live in it?
Rochefort> but wouldn't it be a better world to live in with Buffy and the Scoobies in it?
[anom] look, roche...i don't exactly get what you think that would do for you
Rochefort> we'd have the real thing instead of the fantasy! I mean, we turn to the fantasy because it's better than real life...so wouldn't it be even better if it WAS real life?
[anom] so, what, then...do you want buffy to write your master's essay for you?
Rochefort> of course not--she didn't even finish her first year of college!
Rochefort> now Willow maybe...she's so far ahead of her class level, she could probably do it.
[anom] she's certainly smart enough, but i don't think "composition and rhetoric" is quite her subject area
[anom] maybe buffy could slay a demon representing the requirement to write the essay? do you want just the characters to be real, or the whole metaphor?
Rochefort> I was thinking more i'd forget about the Ph.D. and go have slaying adventures with Buffy and the Scoobs.
[anom] ...and possibly hang out at her house?
Rochefort> well, why not--hey!
[anom] ok, sorry
Rochefort> listen though, funny you mention hanging out at Buffy's...
[anom] why?
Rochefort> cause actually I was thinking more the other way around...
Rochefort> look, we're still working on generating a stable interface between the Buffyverse and the realverse, but that should only take a few more days...
Rochefort> so could you put Buffy up at your place once she gets here?
[anom] *what*? no, couldn't possibly...my place really isn't, um, presentable
Rochefort> I don't think she'd care that much...i mean, she's just spent months living with all those potentials all over her house.
Rochefort> I doubt her standards would be that high. She could just crash on your couch.
[anom] we'd have to dig it out 1st....
Rochefort> that bad, huh?
[anom] nah...i exaggerate
[anom] slightly
Rochefort> well Buffy could just dig right through all that stuff.
Rochefort> or Willow could make it all disappear!
[anom] *oh*, no--there's some stuff there i want to keep! i just need to get it organized
Rochefort> well I'm sure Willow could tailor a housekeeping spell to your specifications.
[anom] hmmmm...now *that's* tempting!
Rochefort> so you'll do it?
[anom] well...how would we set it up?
Rochefort> you really should meet the whole gang. we're all getting together at my chateau outside of Paris.
[anom] paris? woohoo! i've never been there!
[anom] ...i can't *afford* to go there....
Rochefort> no problem...infusion of funds, remember? MOLOJ will cover all expenses...even have a limo pick you up at the airport!
[anom] a limo ride? that'd be another 1st for me! boy, you're changing your approach, aren't you!
Rochefort> what do you mean?
[anom] your approach to recruiting...look, roche...i know what you did to cjl, & honorh--gotta tell ya, it does kinda give me qualms about throwing in w/you
[anom] paris notwithstanding
Rochefort> what, now you're trying to back out?
[anom] no...it's just that i have some doubts
Rochefort> you sure SOUNDED like you were onboard.
[anom] i was, roche--i *am*! well, i kinda got caught up in the whole idea
[anom] i just have a problem w/how you're going about it--can you blame me?
Rochefort> i suppose not...it's not like i feel that great about it myself...i hate having to treat my friends this way...
Rochefort> wait...how do you know what I did to them? [realizing] and how MOLOJ has been spending its money?
[anom] 'cause i've been reading the fanfic?
Rochefort> you know what's happening in it?
[anom] well, of course, roche
[anom] i mean, you find me in chat, we've even been talking about the fic, but you don't expect me to know what's going on in it?
Rochefort> well, just knowing about its existence...doesn't seem like the same thing somehow. I mean, up to now, characters have only known what happens in the scenes they're in.
Rochefort> and you haven't even been in it so far!
[anom] but we're not in the fanfic right now--we're in chat
Rochefort> oh, so it's separate
[anom] no, just the opposite--chat & the board are part of the same, um...what you could call the atpoverse!
Rochefort> ATPoverse...
[anom] so, you know, the me here in chat is the same me who's reading the fanfic on the board
Rochefort> [dawning revelation] wait...it's the ATPoverse that connects the realverse and the buffyverse...
Rochefort> that's it! This IS the interface! Haha, it's existed all along!! And it's stable enough to work....
[anom] stable? voy? & *parachat*?
Rochefort> well, maybe not parachat.
Rochefort> but voy isn't down that often...you know, i think you're onto something.
Rochefort> brb
[anom] roche?
[anom ...that's ok, i'll just talk amongst myself...
Rochefort> WHOOOOOOOOO!!!
[anom] there you are! what was that about?
Rochefort> oh, just making a little phone call! Wohlmann says it'll definitely do the trick! He's programming it in right now! We're in business!!!! [picks anom up, spins around]
[anom] ooommph! [catches breath]
Rochefort> start writing down how you want your place organized!
[anom] riiiight...nah, i still have to do the work myself
Rochefort> no, you don't have to worry...after Chosen, Willow can deal w/a little organizing spell without going dark.
[anom] well, it's nice to know that at least in 1 'verse, my apt. will be all neat!
Rochefort> no "at least" about it. I mean for real.
[anom] for real on the screen....
Rochefort> no, I'm talking about changing the actual real world...not the ATPoverse! That, like you said, is just the interface.
[anom] no, roche, *you* said that
Rochefort> what's gonna change is LIFE! [leans in] MY life. YOUR life. heh, starting with your couch!
[anom] nobody's staying on my couch, esp. nobody fictional!
Rochefort> you said they could, & they're not gonna BE fictional anymore.
[anom] no, i didn't! you're not listening, roche--you're deluded if you think it can be *really* real
Rochefort> I thought you had a more open mind than that. it CAN be. it WILL be. I'll see to it.
[anom] you actually believe this, don't you?
Rochefort> believe? I KNOW it.
Rochefort> [intensely] you know, you could've had a place of honor in the new world, for the key role you played...now? I'm not sure you have a place in it at all.
[anom] what the hell are you saying, roche?
Rochefort> you saw what I did to the others...and they're my friends! I don't even know you all that well...
[anom] whoa! 2 minutes ago you were swinging me around in grateful glee! now you're threatening me? compared to you, parachat *is* stable! you're crazy!
Rochefort> sure...but you knew that...cause you've "been reading the fanfic," right?
[anom] i mean scary crazy! i didn't know you thought that kind of thing could happen in real life!
Rochefort> who's to say what can happen?
Rochefort> technology can do amazing things these days.
[anom] [exasperated but trying to be understanding] roche, if that were possible...we could take *pun fun one* to france in 20 minutes, & when you logged off, you'd actually be there!
Rochefort> pun fun one?
[anom] yeah, my yacht! cactus watcher gave it to me, remember?
Rochefort> oh right...for your birthday. Well how do you know we couldn't.
[anom] go to france? because "this is reality, greg"
Rochefort> how do you know unless we try?
[anom] >sigh< what, you need to have it proved to you?
Rochefort> yeah. prove it.
Rochefort> if "this is reality, Greg" what's the harm?
[anom] aside from wasting time...which, ok, we already are...none, i guess...what the hell, c'mon aboard
Rochefort> o.k., if we don't wind up in France, it doesn't work
Rochefort> but if we do, you'll be convinced?
[anom] i'll have to be, won't i? no way to argue w/that
[anom] >FWAHHHHHMMM< all aboard! (or both aboard, in this case)
Rochefort> "FWAHHHMM"??
[anom] it's a sound effect...like a ship's horn, y'know? boy, if you wanted to make this real, i'd think you'd be getting into it a little more--feel the salt air on your face, find your sea legs, like that
Rochefort> you've got a point
Rochefort> hey, this is fun, let me try steering for awhile
[anom] um...sorry, roche, you haven't had any training w/the controls
Rochefort> why would I need--oh, right, if I want it to be real.
Rochefort> can we really make it to France in 20 minutes?
[anom] sure, in cyberspace...doesn't even have to take that long!
[anom] it's just, usually on a chat cruise there are more people, lots of conversation, cyber-snacks...20 minutes feels like nothing
Rochefort> so we could arrive sooner?
[anom] no reason why not--how about 10 minutes?
Rochefort> are we there yet? how about 1 minute? i wanna be there!
[anom] ha...am i gonna have to pull this ship over?
Rochefort> nope...i'll take care of that [grabs controls!]
[anom] hey! i told you...
Rochefort> why can't anyone accept that this is gonna happen? it's really not up to you now.
[anom] [nothing happens--the yacht continues on course] see, you can't do that. it's mine--it won't respond to you.
Rochefort> unless you give up control. [steps closer]
[anom] [outraged] which i won't! this ship was a gift! it was my *birthday present*, you bastard!
Rochefort> yeah...that was your 50th, wasn't it? you've gotta be slowing down at your age...somehow i think i can take you.
[anom] ever hear that saying about age & cunning, roche? besides, i'd have to give it up voluntarily
[anom] i don't think i'm interested in going to france after all [engine power cuts off...ship coasts]
Rochefort> [quietly] you're going to try to stop me now, aren't you?
[anom] damn right...at this point, even if i agreed w/what you're trying to do
Rochefort> well you can't. No one can. And the ship? You only have control over it as long as you have input from out there, right?
[anom] "out there"?
Rochefort> at your keyboard. You can counter anything I try to do with your yacht--cut the power, whatever...if you can enter the countercommands. But [looks at watch] by now...I have a way to take care of that...and give Wohlmann his first test case!

[Cut to anom's home office, a small room full of books & papers, desk, computer, swivel chair...in which sits ANOM, looking incredulously at the monitor, which shows the ATPoBtVS chat room screen. A crackling buzz is heard; anom turns to see a pattern like "snow" on a TV set, in the outline of a smallish fellow...but in three dimensions. anom stares wide-eyed, too mind-boggled to move, or even breathe, until the image begins to stabilize. A distinct greenish glow can be seen at one of its still-blurry hands. With a gasp, anom turns back to the computer & works the trackball--which, wouldn't ya know, is suddenly sluggish--to the "Log Off" button, clicks, and looks again...but the figure is still there, more solid than before. It takes a step toward anom....]

ANOM: No--I logged out! How--oh. Voy and Parachat!

[Switching to another window, anom hits a key combination to close out of the ATPoBtVS board. Almost-ROCHEFORT disappears w/a hissing snap that sounds sort of like "Damn."

Just to make sure, anom disconnects from the Internet and dials back in...then enters a private chat room and sends an IM to cjl and Ponygirl.]

[The private chat room, furnished much more sparely than the ATPoBtVS room. anom paces nervously.]

>>cjl has joined room #RESCUE_II
>>Ponygirl has joined room #RESCUE_II
[anom] >gasping pants<
cjl> [curiously] Your...pants are gasping?
[anom] ">panting gasps<"?
ponygirl> Anom? Are you OK?
[anom] yeah...i think so...i'm still here, he's gone...but i blew it
cjl> You mean Rochefort? Gone where?
[anom] gone from here
cjl> [looks around warily] Here? You let him know about this room?!
[anom] no, not the chat room--he was *out here*!
[anom] hello...?
ponygirl> What are you talking about?
[anom] he. was. here. in my apt.
[anom] or at least he was...forming here
ponygirl> I repeat...WHAT are you talking about?
[anom] he was...he found a way to get here, in the real world, *physically*, from cyberspace
cjl> Um...you realize that's not anything RESEMBLING possible, don't you?
[anom] [drily] yes, i know that...at least i thought i did
[anom] & the worst part is...[miserably] i think i gave him the idea that *made* it possible...that'll make the whole thing really possible! [drops head into hands]
ponygirl> [gently but grimly] OK Anom...calm down. Start from the beginning and tell us what happened.
[anom] >sigh< it seemed to be going fine at 1st
[anom] i thought--hell, i still think he believed he'd hired me again, overcome my practical objections, maybe even my ethical ones
[anom] he invited me to the paris chateau...i could've walked right in the front, just like we planned
ponygirl> Damn...well, we can work around that, we'll find another way.
cjl> [grimly but gently] So what went wrong?
[anom] i mentioned i'd been reading the fanfic, that's why i knew about the...ethically objectionable stuff...&--i mean, it's weird, we'd even been talking about the fic before, but apparently he'd never made the connection btwn. that & my knowing the content
[anom] till now....
cjl> Well, you didn't have that much contact with him in the original "Rescue"--you don't know how his mind works.
[anom] *that's* for sure
[anom] anyway, i said something about chat & the board being part of the same "atpoverse," so of course i knew about it--& he seized on that
[anom] said it could bridge the buffyverse & reality! like it was the last piece of the puzzle...& *i* gave it to him!
ponygirl> Bridge the...oh boy... [to cjl] You think he could really make that work?
cjl> The question is whether Wohlmann can.
[anom] oh, he can...he said so! rochefort checked w/him
[anom] & even after that, i thought i'd calmed his suspicions...i really thought i was getting through to him, & all the time he was playing me
cjl> Roche may be insane, but that doesn't mean he can't be devious. Once he starts off with an idea, there IS no reasoning with him.
[anom] not that you got much of a chance....
cjl> True--not this time, anyway, but I've tried before. Doesn't work. We did prep you on this.
[anom] i know, i know...but it's diff't. hearing/reading about it & dealing w/it in person
[anom] virtual person, let alone real person
[anom] the guy's impervious to reality
cjl> Well, soon reality may not be impervious to him!
[anom] tell me about it...it already isn't
ponygirl> So did you get anything useful out of him?
[anom] yeah...the chateau *is* their hq, they have plenty of money to fund the project
ponygirl> That's not much.
[anom] he did mention wohlmann, so you were right, he is involved. oh, & he really can alter reality. *that's* pretty big
[anom] i've got 1st-hand evidence on that
cjl> We need to know, was our own operation compromised?
[anom] [insulted] you know i'd never do that
[anom] no. he has no idea you sent me...after all, he came to me, looking to hire me for his project
[anom] all he figured out was that i was agin it
cjl> Look, anom...OK, he caught on to you, but we brought you in on this because you were an experienced freelance operative--that's why it was plausible that you might join him.
cjl> And frankly, I would've thought it also meant you could handle this better. You knew the job was dangerous when you took it.
[anom] in here, usually, i could deal--but before, it was just about bringing the scooby gang over from the buffyverse
[anom] now he can get to us out there, where i'm an experienced freelance *editor*, not an operative...& [glances over at ponygirl] she isn't a spy, & you're not...[looks cjl up & down]...an...ex-revolutionary suburban husband [looks puzzled for a moment; shakes it off]
[anom] where we're real people w/normal job histories...but he can bring his online persona into the real world, possibly along w/all of moloj's resources--definitely incl. syringes filled w/green glowy liquid
cjl> [rolls eyes] What, does he just keep one on him at all times?
ponygirl> So now he can find us anywhere?
[anom] not necessarily. i think he was only able to show up where i was because i was already in chat w/him
[anom] but once he was here, logging out of chat wasn't enough...he didn't disappear till i closed the atpo window too--barely made it
cjl> Great...sounds like we better take some precautions.
ponygirl> Maybe not. He can't know ahead of time if you're going to be in chat, and if he shows up, you can just log off immediately. I don't think he can find us just from our having the board open--that wouldn't make any sense.
[anom] make sense? does *any* of this make sense? but it's happening!
cjl> Yeah, "sense" is not exactly the operative word when it comes to Rochefort. But now that he has that last puzzle piece, I have a feeling he'll be too busy guiding his project through the final stages to come after us through the internet.
ponygirl> Still, that doesn't leave us much time. He's already breached reality once, do we have any way to hold it together?
cjl> Possibly. If there's anyone I know who can make sense of this...[distractedly] hmm, yes, that could work....
[anom] i don't know why i thought i could reason w/him...that's how he got me to take him to france on my yacht, to prove it wouldn't get him there in real life
ponygirl> *Pun Fun One*?
[anom] that's the one
ponygirl> But that only exists in cyberspace!
[anom] that's just it--if roche's idea works, we could travel through cyberspace & actually arrive in france in real space
ponygirl> Wait--isn't he already in France? And wouldn't he have to be in California, where the Engine is, to cross into real space? Or...even to need to get to France? Why have you take him to where he already is?
[anom] [wearily] i dunno...he didn't say where he was logging in from...does it even matter now? it does work, we know that
ponygirl> Yeah...tell us about that--how did he show up at your place?
[anom] i heard a buzzing, & there was this outline, & it started to fill in
[anom] he started toward me w/the needle...that's when i got the hell outta cyberspace
cjl> Do you think he was trying to kidnap you?
[anom] no...besides, i'm not sure he could take me *out* of real space
[anom] & why would he need to? i was already on the yacht w/him, so he could've played along till we got to france
[anom] like i said, i could've walked right in...to a trap, if he'd wanted
cjl> Then what do you think he had in mind?
[anom] he wanted to keep me out of the picture in reality so i couldn't write what the ship would do. then he could...but he still couldn't, could he?
ponygirl> Couldn't what?
[anom] i mean, when you own something in cyberspace, it's practically an attribute of yours, right? like...like rob's pompoms? someone else can't really take it away, can they? & does it even still exist after i log off?
ponygirl> Not following you, Anom.
[anom] there *are* certain conventions in chat, after all....
cjl> I wouldn't know--chat isn't my thing. If not for extraordinary circumstances I wouldn't be here now.
[anom] as long as i was there, i could keep control of it, but maybe making me log off was just as good as knocking me out!
ponygirl> Anom? We need to know what you're talking about...
[anom] [upset] i think he--
cjl> what?
[anom] he--
ponygirl> WHAT?
[anom] he stole my yacht!!!

-------
1Real life (no, real real life) note: Unfortunately, the Bottom Line, a great club that helped give many now-famous musicians & groups their start, did close a few days later. Doesn't sound like they're gonna try to reincarnate it someplace else. I just wanted to acknowledge its passing.
2You can see for yourself here. It's the 2nd thread on the page.


[> [> [> a new event horizon has been discovered!! spoilers -- Ann, 06:46:44 02/23/04 Mon

Definition: event horizon from The Laws List
"The radius that a spherical mass must be compressed to in order to transform it into a black hole, or the radius at which time and space switch responsibilities. ****Once inside the event horizon, it is fundamentally impossible to escape to the outside.... In this sense, the event horizon is a "point of no return."****

None of us can turn back. Excellent first fan fan-fiction Anom.

Great new location! Time and space are altered, virtual chat room with chocolate, and we cannot "escape" the enjoyment. This quote describes what has happened and is happening in this ever-expanding, inescapable, wonderful continuation of the story. Thank you.


[> [> [> [> Re: a new event horizon has been discovered!! spoilers -- Jane, 17:48:51 02/23/04 Mon

Anom, that was great! Now I think I'm scared to go back into the chat room - and I was just getting comfy, even learning to enjoy the slight temporal distortions..
However, Ann is right. We're in too deep to turn back now,so onward to the next chapter!
BTW, try saying retroactive interpolated interprelude five times really fast. :-)


[> [> [> [> and i was worried this ch. would *fall into* a black hole! -- anom, 19:38:33 02/23/04 Mon

Thanks, I think! Well, I'm sure...I'm just a little confused. Are you talking about Rochefort escaping from chat into the real world? Me escaping from him by logging off? The fanfic itself as an escape from the real world?

I love this part: "The radius at which time and space switch responsibilities." Even though I don't really understand it...& I don't see how it applies to the chapter (chat-per?). I tried to write it so it wouldn't change anything before or after it takes place, & so it wouldn't mess up whatever might be coming next. Hm, which means the ch. itself doesn't escape from the existing framework of the fic--even though, by being in chat, it kind of is outside of the rest of it!

I should probably mention--add this to the footnotes: Ch. 8A originated from an actual chat I had w/Rochefort soon after his Ch. 8 was posted. Some of the dialogue comes close to being direct quotes from the chat, & some of the ideas stem from it. (See the date at the beginning of the ch.--yes, it took me that long to write it &, um...to work up the nerve to post it. Glad I did now.)

And of course there's chocolate in the ATPo chat room!


[> [> [> Heh. -- puppet!cjl, 08:22:18 02/23/04 Mon

[anom] so, what, then...do you want buffy to write your master's essay for you?

Rochefort> of course not--she didn't even finish her first year of college!

Rochefort> now Willow maybe...she's so far ahead of her class level, she could probably do it.

[anom] she's certainly smart enough, but i don't think "composition and rhetoric" is quite her subject area

[anom] maybe buffy could slay a demon representing the requirement to write the essay? do you want just the characters to be real, or the whole metaphor?

***********************

"Maybe buffy could slay a demon representing the requirement to write the essay?"

Damn, I wish I'd thought of that line.


[> [> [> [> wow--coming from you, that's a real compliment! -- anom, 10:07:30 02/23/04 Mon

'Cause you could actually write that scene! And come up w/what would happen as a result of the slaying, too. Although I'm kinda more interested in the 2nd part of the line: "do you want just the characters to be real, or the whole metaphor?" The latter option would be a whole other story...well, actually, I suppose it would turn the real world into the Buffyverse, & we've already seen that--on the show.


[> [> [> Yay anom! -- Pony, 19:16:02 02/23/04 Mon

I had a few nervous moments wondering if fictional anom was going to go all double agent (or would it be triple) as a revenge thing for me leaving her in the invisibility cloak in my chapter, but of course she stayed true! That was twisty metaphysical fun!


[> [> [> [> if anything... -- anom, 21:24:43 02/23/04 Mon

...it explains why I want to remain invisible when I'm anywhere near Roche! Glad you liked it--it's nice to be getting support for my firstfic!

OT question to Smile Time (spoilers to 5.14) -- Just Visiting, 22:36:13 02/18/04 Wed

I had a question about the whole Fred-Wesley relationship/thing. I have seen every episode this year but I feel like I missed something. To me the whole Fred-Wesley thing seems to have come out of left field. When did Fred stop liking the lab geek (what's his name) and start liking Wesley? While I'm really glad that they are finally getting together, the suddenness of it surprised and confused me. Am I alone in this?


Replies:

[> Re: OT question to Smile Time (spoilers to 5.14) -- RadiusRS, 22:44:28 02/18/04 Wed

Well, he saved her from fake Roger in Lineage and when he did the revealing spell in You're Welcome, she gave him a warm look. Besides, he's had a crush on her since at least early season 3 if not before.


[> Re: OT question to Smile Time (spoilers to 5.14) -- CW, 06:51:32 02/19/04 Thu

In Harm's Way, Harmony tells Fred the whole office knows she and Wesley are crazy about each other. We know that Wesley has never gotten over her from way back when. We have to take on faith that the cooworkers were right and that Fred was already interested in him again, but it's not that hard to believe. They do have a lot in common.

Have to admit that when Wesley was trying to keep Fred at arms length, I kept thinking the next thing he's going to do is say, "I care for you a lot, but remember, I'm married to Willow!" And on the 'same' subject Fred hitting on Willow last year seemed a lot more out of the blue.


[> [> Fred and Wes - Big Contrivance? -- Claudia, 08:52:27 02/19/04 Thu

As far as I'm concerned, Fred and Wes should have ended as a potential couple back in S4, when the two had discussed Wes' affair with Lilah in "Players".

Ever since "Life of the Party", when we saw Wes' continuing interest in Fred, I've felt that the development of this relationship this season has been completely contrived. Someone once described this ship as a plot contrivance for future episodes.

The past episodes have never bothered to explain Fred's sudden interest in Wes . . . unless you count him pumping nine bullets into RogerBot as the reason. Nor have the past episodes ever bothered to explain why Fred has lost interest in Knox (by the way, I'm also not a fan of the Fred/Knox ship).

This whole relationship seems to be nothing but a big contrivance on ME's part, this season. And neither Wes or Fred's characters seemed to have developed from their relationship. Whatever it might be.


[> [> Re: OT question to Smile Time (spoilers to 5.14) -- Ace of Sevens, 19:45:48 02/19/04 Thu

I don't think Fred was actually hitting on Willow. She was geeking out and Willow got the wrong idea.


[> [> [> Re: OT question to Smile Time (spoilers to 5.14) -- CW, 05:55:54 02/20/04 Fri

That's certainly one way to look at it. But, I have to say to me it looked like Fred reacted as if she'd been 'shot down' not as if she were thinking, 'Oh, my goodness, Willow got the wrong idea.'


[> [> [> [> Re: OT question to Smile Time (spoilers to 5.14) -- Ace of Sevens, 11:48:23 02/20/04 Fri

She looked embarrassed to me, which could be explained by either situation.


[> There have been subtle clues... (spoilers for previously aired S4 eps) -- Rob, 07:49:55 02/19/04 Thu

Besides the fact that Wes' crush on Fred has been long documented, the last time period the characters would be able to recall the most strongly was early S3. Had the events of Billy not occurred, it is very possible Fred and Wesley would have gotten together back then. Not to say that they don't remember events later than that, but these would be more vague, thus explaining why there has been no weirdness between her and Gunn over their relationship. In this season, we have had clues such as: sweet, girlish looks Fred has been sending to Wesley, the end of Lineage, the secretaries talking in Harm's Way, and in Why We Fight, Fred blatantly announced that Knox had made a mistake, indicating that she was less pleased with him than she had been. And I know there aren't too many Fred/Wesley fans, at least here, but I've been waiting for her to grab and kiss him like that for a long, long time.

Rob


[> [> Don't feel alone, Rob... -- Ixchel (shamelessly mostly lurking), 07:28:33 02/21/04 Sat

I loved Wesley/Lilah and long for Lilah's return (pretty please?), but Fred/Wesley works for me too.

Also, I believe there are many fans who feel the same (example: sibling and sibling's spouse, who expressed the opinion that it was "about damn time!").


Ixchel
Trying To Be Positive About Angel Season 6

No smiles for puppet episode - 5 problems -- Hand up your..., 06:27:51 02/19/04 Thu

Sooo...I liked the theory of the episode: demon spirits inhabit puppet constructs and manipulate their master while sucking innocence out of children in order to build a Hell dimension empire. But the execution was dull and had so many glaring errors.
1) Knox and Fred...boooring. "I think Knox has worked here too long" DUH. If he turns EEVIL *yawn*.
2) Gunn's brain upgrade is out of juice so he goes to the weird-science guy for the 9.0 upgrade. YAWN...it's been done already! This character arc COMPLETELY parallels Willow's trips to Rack for her "upgrades" in Buffy season six. He's gone from noone to a power-player and he's drunk on the power...just like Willow. If he starts wearing black and says "bored now", I'll throw my pizza at the TV.
3) Werewolf girl in love with Angel. BLEH, vomit. She's so skanky and so boring. "It's so hard being a werewolf." Take a lesson from OZ you two-bit lycanthrope...shut up and just be mellow.
4) What was up with the booooring Neon-Egg that turned people into puppets? yawn.
5) THE MOST GLARING RIDICULOUS OVERSIGHT I'VE EVER SEEN IN THE ENTIRE BUFFYVERSE:
THE SINGING! The puppet maker sings to Lorne! He sings directly at him! People have done as little as whistle and Lorne has read their aura completely up and down. WHAT HAPPENED?!?
And this is a Joss written episode!
The puppets sing on the video tape! The puppets sing in the studio! There is no way possible that a problem solving team with brainiacs like Fred and Wesley wouldn't think, "Oh..singing...let's ask Lorne to read them." FOR LIKE TWO SEASONS THAT WAS THE SHOWS ANSWER TO EVERY PROBLEM! "Got a bad guy? Make him sing for Lorne!"
Jesus..and here the puppet maker doesn't spark the tiniest blip on his songpathic radar? Unbelievable.

Angel has become a tangled knot of go nowhere plots.
This show doesn't care. It hasn't "hit it's stride". It's lost it. I'm pleased the show is ending. FYI: fanboys and fangirls, the show wouldn't be cancelled if it were any good. It's being cancelled because of episodes like this puppet nonsense.
But the execution...oh, poor "Angel". It's time for you go.


Replies:

[> Er... you didn't like it, then? -- Marie, 07:48:32 02/19/04 Thu



[> [> Re: Er... you didn't like it, then? -- Hand up your..., 08:01:09 02/19/04 Thu

I thought I made that obvious. I guess my distaste wasn't clear enough for you.
First time to this discussion board...I was hoping to ellicit some debate about the episode/season. But all I'm reading are joyous, blind appraisals by fanboys kneeling at the bloodied altar of Mutant Enemy. *bored now*


[> [> [> Re: jeez... ignoring now -- Vegeta, 08:19:26 02/19/04 Thu



[> [> [> What's to debate? -- Cactus Watcher, 08:29:42 02/19/04 Thu

Your whole point seems to be that you hated it. Hard to argue with that. Now if you want to talk about how it could have been better, that's a different matter and takes a little different approach.


[> [> [> Hey some of us are fan*girls* kneeling at that bloodied altar you know! -- Pony, 08:36:03 02/19/04 Thu



[> [> [> Troll! Run! Hide your babies and your beadwork! -- Pip, 08:44:46 02/19/04 Thu



[> Troll Alert! But I'll wade in anyway. (Never been that bright) -- Darby, 08:23:31 02/19/04 Thu

This is so obviously just here to kick folks in the shins, but maybe you just express yourself...imperfectly. Nah, I don't believe it either.

Anyway...

The Fred - Knox sidebar may have been just a way to delay getting Wesley back into the fray after the mindf**k over Connor. If it has set up some actual forward momentum in the characters, especially Fred now that she has become more of a plot device than a participant, I'm all for it. We need more ensemble.

Your parallels ain't particularly parallel - it should be obvious that Gunn is rationalizing this away as necessary in his fight against evil, while Willow had abandoned that tack well before Rack. The addictive nature of the knowledge - and Power that goes with it - is almost a counterpoint to Willow, whose power was very linked to a lack of understanding about...well, pretty much everything.

A descent into true trollish depths with Wolfina - there's not even a point to respond to here.

The Egg was a power source - how exciting does a generator have to be?

In which episode has Lorne been able to read people over a tv? His W&H reviews have always been face-to-face. Also, there was a cloaking spell on the show.

So you think tv shows are canceled according to their quality? What bizarro world have you been living in? If anything, there's an inverse relationship. But if you don't like something, why keep hitting yourself in the eyeballs with it?

The boy has issues, he's Issue-Boy...


[> [> Re: Troll Alert! But I'll wade in anyway. (Never been that bright) -- Kickin' in the shins, 08:49:49 02/19/04 Thu

Good points.
I disagree regarding Gunn and Willow. It's too easy a parallel...and yup...it's a parralel. Both characters wanted to find their niche and found themselves over compensating and ultimately addicted to their niche. Willow (when Buffy was dead) was using too much magick. Gunn didn't have to get the brain upgrade. It looked like they didn't even really need his help, what? are there no other legitimate lawyers at W&H? But both felt like they needed to be seen as more useful to the team. For Willow is was her stigma as boring nerdy Willow...for Gunn it's being viewed as a street thug muscle.

ok, ok...the werewolf stuff was lame-o, but if people get to make broad "love it" statements, there's room for the dark side as well.

But onto the main event. LORNE. Let's focus on the Lorne here people.

I'll grant ya that "yeah", he likely can't read people via the TV. But it would have been a GREAT inclusive way of using his character. "Hey Lorne, come in here and take a look at it."
"Egads! It's sucking my innocence..turn it off! TURN IT OFF!!"

The biggest error I found was the puppet makers singing right there infront of him...and zippo.
For two seasons Lorne has read demons, vampires, humans, subhumans, everything through the tiniest bit of song... why no glimmer of something.
And the "cloaking spell" excuse only leads to a tired rational which has already been used in previous episodes for previous locations. It's tired. It's poor writing. Up the stakes by letting Lorne hear it. Let him get all Joker faced and freak out. It would lead our team in the direction of the music. It seems like such a wonderful, inclusive solution that would , but the writers chose to instead have Fred catch a freeze frame on her VCR of a closeup of the demon puppet...boooring.

It's a glaring error, not a good episode.
And thanks for wading in.
If I'm a troll does that mean I get a hammer?


[> [> [> I'm thinking maybe not a troll? -- Vickie, 09:09:37 02/19/04 Thu

Trolls aren't usually amenable to logical discussion. You appear to be, though holding some strong negative opinions. Which is NOT a problem on this board.

I have to agree that the scene with Lorne and the puppet maker, where the guy sings, looks like a huge blooper. Lorne should have gotten a glimmer of insight, at the bare minimum. Even if he didn't shout it out then, he should have mentioned it later, something like "That guy didn't seem quite right, like his aura was double."

I can retconn this by saying that the guy himself wasn't singing, the demon puppetmaster was, and the combination obscured Lorne's abilities.

I'm rather hoping that we will discover that Lorne, like Gunn, is experiencing a degradation in his abilities. But there hasn't been any foreshadowing for that (that I've noticed anyway).

Either explanation is pretty lame. It's probably a big goof up.


[> [> [> [> Just remembering...(Spoilers for S5 to 5.13) -- Pip, 09:29:47 02/19/04 Thu

... that Lorne was first in the W&H limo.

So as well as the 'degradation in his abilities' theory, there's also the theory that his abilities are working perfectly. He's simply no longer working for the Fang Gang.

So what he's telling them about his readings isn't the truth any more. Which would fit events this season - how helpful has Lorne really been to the Gang? Apart from his possibly doubtful readings?

But he's been doing a really good job as Department Head at W&H.


[> [> [> [> [> Re: Just remembering...(Spoilers for S5 to 5.13) -- Vickie, 12:29:22 02/19/04 Thu

I refuse to believe in eeeeevil Lorne! But self-serving Lorne I can believe. He was pretty down about losing Caritas, TWICE, because of the AI team's work. He probably would like to get a life back.

Interesting point.


[> [> [> [> Why that wasn't a blooper... -- Rob, 11:46:01 02/19/04 Thu

I'm reprinting what Kansas posted in another thread because it's a great point that I didn't think of:

"As I understood it, the songs weren't just songs... they were actually the cloaking spells. Recall that the cloaking effect vanished when Wes (or was it Fred? Anyway...) hit the mute button, and returned when the sound came back on?

The cloaking effect was designed to hide what the puppets were up to from anyone who wasn't a child of a certain age... since Lorne of course wasn't a child, he got nothing from the puppetmaker singing."

Which of course should make us very nervous about the fact that one of these seemingly harmless cloaking spells was played in the background of Fred and Wesley's episode-ending kiss. ;o)

Rob


[> [> [> [> [> Re: Why that wasn't a blooper... -- Vickie, 12:32:57 02/19/04 Thu

I think Kansas has hit on the answer. It's still pretty lame, but lame in an extremely plausible way and with a hint of the ME style.


[> [> [> [> [> [> Or maybe he did read him -- Lunasea, 06:27:15 02/20/04 Fri

and he was expecting an evil human, so when he gets glimmers though the cloaking spell, he picks up evil, lies and manipulation, not to mention a huge brat. Nothing to report to the others there.


[> [> [> [> [> Good point, and... -- Masq, 13:44:09 02/19/04 Thu

Which of course should make us very nervous about the fact that one of these seemingly harmless cloaking spells was played in the background of Fred and Wesley's episode-ending kiss. ;o)

Who's nervous? Pony is right, all this Fresley nonsense is a spell!


[> [> [> [> [> [> I have a very bad feeling about this. Unspoiled Speculation -- Arethusa, 14:18:27 02/19/04 Thu

What if Angel finds out the mindwipe can be reversed somehow? Angel might want to do it to get Connor back, but Wes, who finally got his dream girl, and Gunn would not. Gunn is desperate and Wes can be ruthless. Will the final battle be between members of the Fang Gang?

I have a feeling that the only reason Wes and Fred got together is to create more angst.


[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Spoilers for Smile Time Above -- Arethusa, 14:23:48 02/19/04 Thu



[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I have a very bad feeling about this. Unspoiled Speculation -- Masq, 15:54:59 02/19/04 Thu

Will the final battle be between members of the Fang Gang?

It's shaping up to be this way, whether the details in your spec are the way it play out or not. Gunn will have a big role in the in-fighting. I always thought it would be him wanting to keep his powers and position. But perhaps it will be anger at Angel for manipulating them into the situation (being at W&H) that allowed Gunn to be manipulated by the SPs like he was in "Smile Time"--that is, forced to make a deal with an evil guy to keep those powers.

And the others will have their own reasons for wanting to stay at W&H (love, power, position) or leave (Angel your first compromise doomed us all to be prisoners of W&H).

I have a feeling that the only reason Wes and Fred got together is to create more angst.

Well, that's ME's meta-reason. But W&F think they're in love!


[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I have a very bad feeling about this. Spoilers to 5.15 trailer -- RadiusRS, 15:21:02 02/22/04 Sun

But perhaps it will be anger at Angel for manipulating them into the situation (being at W&H) that allowed Gunn to be manipulated by the SPs like he was in "Smile Time"--that is, forced to make a deal with an evil guy to keep those powers.

I'm wondering if the artifact that we see spray Fred with something in the trailer wasn't the same artifact "The Doctor" was trying to get through customs? It would certainly bring to the forefront the schism within the team as everyone would blame Gunn and would restart the Gunn-Wes rivalry big time.


[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I had the same thought -- Masq, 12:15:50 02/23/04 Mon

I'm wondering if the artifact that we see spray Fred with something in the trailer wasn't the same artifact "The Doctor" was trying to get through customs? It would certainly bring to the forefront the schism within the team as everyone would blame Gunn and would restart the Gunn-Wes rivalry big time.

Guess we'll find out!


[> [> [> Re: Troll Alert! But I'll wade in anyway. (Never been that bright) -- Darby, 11:42:49 02/19/04 Thu

Gotta admit, I think the Lorne hook you suggest here is more interesting, but I think it would have been tough to work into the structure of the episode. It's possible that Joss & Ben thought about it but went with an approach that delayed the reveal to the 3rd Act (even though we already had a pretty good idea of what was going on, and I'm not fond of episodes where we spend a lot of time watching them come gradually up to our level of knowledge).

The trollishness comes from the way you're presenting your ideas - we don't need to be figuratively dared to give our opinions, and here the allusions to yawns and mental states kind of brands newbies, who can be seen as trolls when their first posts amount to, "The show sucks! You people are morons if you can't see what morons you are, and I'm the only one who really sees what's going on!" And your characterization of the board in your response to Marie underlines how unfamiliar with the place you are.

Plus, I've got to add, and maybe it's just me, but it's hard to take episode criticism too seriously from someone who needs to hold signs up and toot horns instead of letting their actual writing convey their feelings.

Oops, rambling. Done now.


[> [> [> [> Re: Troll Alert! But I'll wade in anyway. (Never been that bright) -- Hand down my throat, 13:04:41 02/19/04 Thu

So familiarity breeds status with this board? Interesting, I would encourage new voices instead of sticking to the same tired ones...incestuous "thinking" circles can get awfully stagnant if they aren't shaken up.
And there's more productive ways to instruct "newbies" (I've been posting here since 1999 so I guess I'm still a "newbie").
OH...and someone posted
"It's not just a song, it's a cloaking spell." Well, that still implies it was a song, therefore Lorne should have read the puppet's intent and thus it's a glaring error.
Hand down my throat


[> [> [> [> [> Re: Troll Alert! But I'll wade in anyway. (Never been that bright) -- Pip, 13:23:08 02/19/04 Thu

"It's not just a song, it's a cloaking spell." Well, that still implies it was a song, therefore Lorne should have read the puppet's intent and thus it's a glaring error.

By which interesting piece of logic, mirrored glass is still glass, and so you should be able to see through it.

Not if you're the one on the reflecting side, you won't. :-)

Pip
[proudly posting here since - oh, at least three weeks ago. Or maybe four. ]


[> [> [> [> [> [> LOL, Pip! Great analogy! -- Rob, 14:56:26 02/19/04 Thu



[> [> [> [> [> [> [> as distinct from a metaphor? -- anom, 16:47:22 02/19/04 Thu

Of course, if neither one of those worked, it would be...Simile Time!


[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Hee hee! -- Rob, 17:44:19 02/19/04 Thu



[> [> [> [> [> My opinion on the whole issue -- Finn Mac Cool, 14:33:53 02/19/04 Thu

It's wise to be more careful with criticism than you are with praise. If you start saying something is really great, most of the time people won't be upset by it. They might very well disagree, but it won't produce much of an averse emotional reaction. However, if you come out and say something's crap, people who like this something have a natural tendency to become angry. I'm not sure why, precisely (they may take it as an insult to their own tastes, or they may see it as an affront to the insulted object (just see how some people can develop emotional attachments to cars to understand)), but such a clearly negative and incredibly harsh stance will almost always make some people upset.

My advice to you would be to make future criticisms more calm and less aggressive in tone, give good reasons and examples for your thoughts, and sprinkle in several "IMHOs". It's not that you HAVE to do this, but it would be nice as it causes less turmoil and argument among your fellow posters.

Oh, and whether shows succeed or not isn't really an indicator of quality. For starters, quality of an art form is entirely subjective, and so there really can't be a way to say "this TV show is good, and this one is bad". Second, even if you could judge the quality of TV shows objectively, ratings probably still wouldn't be the best way to go about it. There are probably quite a few people out there who would like Buffy and Angel, but don't because they've never seen it. Also, ratings only measure how many people watch the show, not how much they enjoy it. Tell me, which is a better sign of quality: a show with ten million viewers who think its good, or a show with one million viewers who think its brilliant?


[> [> Lorne-approved -- Athena, 23:18:54 02/19/04 Thu

In which episode has Lorne been able to read people over a tv? His W&H reviews have always been face-to-face. Also, there was a cloaking spell on the show.

In "Souless", Lorne reads Angelus way of video camera. Still, I agree with you. There must have been some anti-mojo mojo going on there.

That brings up an interesting question. We know for sure that at least two people have used magic to fool Lorne's psychic abilities, so how many more people have and still are doing this? How many people who are Lorne-approved are still dangerous?


[> So what's everybody's favorite type of cheese? -- Rob, 08:41:14 02/19/04 Thu

My all time favorite would have to be brie, which goes especially well on toasted bagels, with strawberries on the side. Muenster cheese, of course is always a classic, and every now and then I like a nice Monterey Jack. How about everybody else?

Rob


[> [> Brie, but en croute -- Arethusa, 08:44:52 02/19/04 Thu

Or with toasted slivered almonds. Or ripe D'Anjou pears. And tons of French bread from a good bakery.

Is it lunch time yet?


[> [> Hard to beat Gouda on crackers... -- CW, 08:50:09 02/19/04 Thu

but Monterey Jack is great on pizza. I prefer Jack with the jalapeno peppers in tacos


[> [> Re: Swiss on sandwhiches! -- Vegeta, 09:30:13 02/19/04 Thu



[> [> Fresh mozzarella, or brie on a gingersnap with a thin slice of apple -- Gyrus, 10:20:19 02/19/04 Thu



[> [> [> Melted brie on apple slices -- Masq, 13:50:38 02/19/04 Thu

I recently discovered that bit of decadence at a holiday party I went to. Uh.My.God!


[> [> [> [> Try blue cheese on fresh ripe figs -- tomfool, 20:40:07 02/19/04 Thu

It's an unbelievably good match. Wasn't fond of figs until I tasted this combo.


[> [> [> [> [> Blue cheese on figs - absolutely devine & decadent! -- Jane, 21:50:05 02/19/04 Thu



[> [> [> [> [> [> Pineapple slices wrapped in Swiss -- Ann, 12:52:39 02/20/04 Fri



[> [> [> [> [> Hey tomfool! -- Masq, 12:39:00 02/20/04 Fri

Long time, no see. The Bay Area boardies are due for a meet sometime soon....


[> [> [> [> Oh, yes, that's delicious! -- Rob, 22:29:56 02/19/04 Thu



[> [> Re: So what's everybody's favorite type of cheese? -- punkinpuss, 10:57:29 02/19/04 Thu

Oh, man! There's a horseradish cheddar from Vermont that's to die for. I think Cabot's makes it but it's really hard to find in NYC.


[> [> [> 1) that sounds good! 2) did you say nyc? -- anom, 21:57:33 02/21/04 Sat

Horseradish cheddar, mmm! I'll have to look for it. I've seen Cabot cheeses in health food stores; it might also be in places like Jefferson Market & Bazzini's.

So you're in NYC? And we ATPo locals haven't met you yet?? I think it's time for another NY meet! Anybody have preferences for when/where?


[> [> Hard to say. There's not really any "bad" type of cheese, for me. -- BrianWilly, 21:02:15 02/19/04 Thu



[> [> Re: Grilled cheese (NT) -- kickin' shins, 06:33:35 02/20/04 Fri



[> [> Skeezy. -- HonorH, 00:43:31 02/21/04 Sat



[> Whatever would make you think . . . -- d'Herblay, 11:04:53 02/19/04 Thu

. . . that a Joss-written episode would be the least likely to contain continuity errors? If anything, given his past history, I'd nominate him as the writer least likely to value consistency over dramatic possibilities. He is, after all, responsible for a plot in which Xander admits to casting a spell he had no reason to cast and in which he participates voicedly in theorizing about why everyone has started singing without mentioning that, hey, he cast a spell which might make everyone start singing; he also gave us a story in which Buffy has a whisper of an idea which would throw over everything she (and the audience) knows about how the slayer power is propogated based on several thousand years of ingrained thinking, and, mirabile dictu, Willow just happens to be able to come up with, on short notice and after no obvious research, a spell that will realize Buffy's strange whim. If you want a detailed knowledge of the backstory of the Buffyverse, the writer you want is Goddard. If you want stories with baroque metaphors, snappy dialogue, and experimentalism, and you're willing to accept a certain sloppiness with internal consistency, then Joss Whedon is your man.

I enjoyed "Smile Time" quite a bit, but I do find the Lorne oversight bothersome, and I thank you for bringing it to my attention. Your other points can be written off with a wave of the magic spackling wand and a reiteration of de gustibus and all that.


[> [> See Kansas' explanation in the above thread, d'H. It makes sense. -- Rob, 11:48:10 02/19/04 Thu



[> [> For the first time in a long time... -- Masq, 14:18:55 02/19/04 Thu

It actually occured to me to check for polynymity in the IPs.

Know what I mean?


[> [> Although, Joss was only slightly involved in this episode -- Finn Mac Cool, 14:43:38 02/19/04 Thu

He and Ben Edlund came up with the story together and then Ben wrote the script. This was far more a Ben Edlund episode than a Joss one.


[> Singing -- Ace of Sevens, 19:51:27 02/19/04 Thu

They specified the songs the puppets sang were part of a cloaking spell, which presumably prevented Lorne from picking up on anything suspicious.


[> [> Re: Singing -- kickin' shins, 09:50:18 02/20/04 Fri

I'd have thought a line like:
"Well he sang, but I didn't pick anything up Gunny-Bunny." would have answered some questions. The way it's presented it appears to be an error.


[> [> [> Re: Singing -- Ace of Sevens, 11:49:56 02/20/04 Fri

The cloaking spell put up false impressions on the TV. It could have given Lorne a false reading in the same way.

Something odd... (spoilers for "Smile Time") -- Vegeta, 08:17:14 02/19/04 Thu

I really enjoyed this episode but find two things odd:

1. It seems incredibly unlikely that a puppet show would be shown "live" on TV. Although the puppets stealing life force and the incredibly funny climax would have been slightly diminished without this "live" element.

2. Why didn't Lorne read the "smile time" creator when he sang at him?


Replies:

[> Good question (spoilers) -- Pony, 08:44:57 02/19/04 Thu

Have we seen Lorne do an accurate reading at all this year? I'm assuming that the puppets' cloaking spells covered Lorne's abilities, as well as network objections to airing a live puppet show, but I am starting to wonder if something's up with Lorne's powers.


[> [> Maybe having his memory altered has messed with his powers? -- Pip, 08:53:35 02/19/04 Thu



[> [> [> Re: Maybe having his memory altered has messed with his powers? -- kickn' shins, 09:07:43 02/19/04 Thu

Perhaps it's simply a glaring mistake and poor writing.
BUT...I'll try to justify it.
Perhaps Lorne's never sleep mojo has completely destroyed his ability to read people's emotions. Even with it removed he can no see their thoughts, deeds, auras, smileys whatever because his subconcious turned into the incredible Hulk.
And maybe he hasn't realized it because noone has sung for him in so long. I know I took a double take and realized after it happend that he had been sung to.
Or maybe he's EEEVIL too...and was secretly working for the puppets..and didn't want to rat them out. Yeah, that's it.
That's a great suggestion because "Angel" is great!
hehehe...
or maybe it's just a glaring oversight.
kickin' shins.


[> [> [> [> I don't know... -- Vegeta, 09:28:33 02/19/04 Thu

I seem to remember employees of Wolfram & Hart totally lining up in his office to be read in either "Home" or one of the first few episodes of season 5. However, I haven't seen him "read" since the "Life of the Party" episode.


[> [> Re: Good question (spoilers) -- D (and sure to be refuted) Soul, 19:50:05 02/19/04 Thu

It's been my contention for a while now (no, really, it has, I just haven't said much about it) that Lorne's mojo's been MIA since his coconut was poked by W&H in S4's Slouching Towards Bethlehem. If pushed, then, I'll maybe only insist that it's been since Evil!Cordy's fake re-ensouling ritual that was really designed to make sure that Lorne couldn't read that Angelus still didn't have a soul.

I mean - look at all the evil people that still work at W&H - the virgin sacrificer, the steno vamp who tried to set up Harmony, the doctor who sold Nina to the epicannibals who was able to fool Lorne with a little bit of candlabrum, er, calendar, er, oh right, calendula oil and who knows if he even needed it?

Also, I think Lorne knows he ain't got it no more. In LotP, in the limo-scene w/Angel, he's bemoaning the fact that he has no super-powers to contribute to the MoG and that's why he's had his sleep removed. He can still fake it because he's really good at reading people, but I don't think he can "read" people anymore.


[> Re: Something odd... (spoilers for "Smile Time") -- Gyrus, 10:16:24 02/19/04 Thu

It seems incredibly unlikely that a puppet show would be shown "live" on TV. Although the puppets stealing life force and the incredibly funny climax would have been slightly diminished without this "live" element.

I don't imagine that the life-force-sucking mojo of the show would work if it weren't live, anyway.

Of course, the execs at the studio that produces SMILE TIME don't necessarily know that the show is broadcast live. (The show is crewed by zombies, so who's going to squeal?) Or, if they do, they may simply have decided that the show's high ratings are worth whatever risks a live broadcast entails.


[> Re: Something odd... (spoilers for "Smile Time") -- Ames, 10:54:34 02/19/04 Thu

Low-budget local kiddie shows are often broadcast live to save money. It's not like they need a lot of rehearsal or scene setup, and they have to do it every day. They often just ad-lib the dialog, like a talk show.

As for Lorne, maybe has to concentrate to read someone, and he didn't bother turning on the mojo in this case because he figured that they already knew what this guy's agenda was. Maybe he would have had to concentrate extra-hard to pick any significant details beyond general evil-ness because the guy was just a barely-alive shell.


[> [> Re: Something odd... (spoilers for "Smile Time") -- Gyrus, 11:56:31 02/19/04 Thu

As for Lorne, maybe has to concentrate to read someone, and he didn't bother turning on the mojo in this case because he figured that they already knew what this guy's agenda was.

But we have seen Lorne read people unintentionally, as he did a couple of times in S3 (once before Holtz blew up Caritas, and once before Wesley kidnapped Connor). So I don't think that's it. More likely it was (a) the cloaking spell or (b) a big goof in the script.


[> [> [> Re: Something odd... (spoilers for "Smile Time") -- Tymen, 12:52:19 02/19/04 Thu

I'm going to say it was the cloaking spell, it is the simplest explanation that doesn't make ME look like they don't have story editors, cause that would mean, Joss Whedon hadn't been paying attention to his own Show Bible with a character who he introduced onto the show, because he likes Andy Hallet.

Tymen

Lorne and the puppet master. -- Kickin' in the shins, 08:55:10 02/19/04 Thu

So seriously. I ask one question:
Taking into account the God himself co-wrote this episode, why was no attention given to the fact that the puppet master sang infront of Lorne, and nothing was detected?


Replies:

[> See my response below -- Vickie, 09:11:27 02/19/04 Thu



[> Re: Lorne and the puppet master. -- Corcastus, 09:36:35 02/19/04 Thu

The demons had the nest egg that provided some cloaking for them. Primarily this was for the tv show, but it is certainly possible that it would work on Lorne's ability as well.


[> [> The songs were themselves cloaking spells -- Kansas, 11:09:53 02/19/04 Thu

As I understood it, the songs weren't just songs... they were actually the cloaking spells. Recall that the cloaking effect vanished when Wes (or was it Fred? Anyway...) hit the mute button, and returned when the sound came back on?

The cloaking effect was designed to hide what the puppets were up to from anyone who wasn't a child of a certain age... since Lorne of course wasn't a child, he got nothing from the puppetmaker singing.

(Thanks again, Mustard Man!) :)


[> [> [> Re: The songs were themselves cloaking spells -- kickin' shins, 13:11:27 02/19/04 Thu

So what is a "song"? Would a lyrical poem be considered a song? Would a long, complicated spell with elaborate vocal components be a song?
Someone whistled and Lorne read the evil intent. Is a whistled tune considered a song? Would someone playing an instrument count for his empathic abilities to kick in?


[> [> [> [> Lorne's abilities have always covered the full spectrum -- Finn Mac Cool, 14:08:23 02/19/04 Thu

In "The House Always Wins", he could give precise details about people's futures based on a short bit of singing. However, he's read Angel several times, singing for longer, and still had no clue Darla, Connor, or the Wolfram & Hart merger were coming. Also, sometimes he seems to react to a song right away ("Happy Anniversary") and sometimes he needs a second or two (in "Offspring", he couldn't read Holtz until he'd been humming for a couple seconds). So, I think what Lorne can and can't do is pretty much hard to peg down.


[> A little clarification -- LittleBit, 22:10:42 02/19/04 Thu

Since this is the second time you've specifically noted that this episode was written by "the God himself" I thought it worth noting that it was written and directed by Ben Edlund. Who may indeed be the God himself, but I usually think of that as Joss, who wrote and directed the episode for next week.

Puppets or puppets? (5.14 spoilers and some unspoiled spec) -- Masq, 10:01:33 02/19/04 Thu

Smile Time. Angel turned into a puppet. A metaphor made literal. In 'Lineage', Robo-Roger Wyndam-Pryce tells Wesley that Angel has always been a puppet. Of the PTBs, of the Senior Partners. And now he really is one.

Because I heard this was a metaphorical episode, I assumed that Angel being a puppet would really mean that. That he wouldn't be able to control his actions. But other than a little lack of control over his emotions, Puppet!Angel had free will. He just had stubby fuzzy hands.

Interestingly, Angel is turned into a puppet not by some direct intervention by the bad guys or the good guys, but because of his own ignorant blunder. Angel's desire to do good takes him where he shouldn't go--into the realm of some evil demons. Fools rush in. A light flashes. Puppet time.

And significantly, the bad guys were also puppets. What does that mean, metaphorically? The bad guys have their own demonic free will as well. For them, being a puppet is a glamor, a mere appearance hiding their true natures. They want to steal childhood innocence as if were a commodity they could sell on the evil demon black market. Yet more glamors.

Everything about them is deception. I don't appear dangerous, but I am. I'm the smiling, normal-looking man, dressed as a clown at the mall, who lures a child away from his parents and cajoles, tricks and sinisterly charms him into performing sexual acts. I mean, did you see and hear what was happening when that puppet lured the first boy to the TV screen? "Touch it. C'mon, touch it." And when he does, the puppet groans in near sexual pleasure. That's got to be worth a few angry calls to the Network:

"Don't worry, ma'am. We'll cancel this show immediately!"

So what happens when your puppet metaphor isn't very... puppety? What does it mean as a metaphor for Angel's situation?

Puppets are supposed to be creatures with no free will of their own, acting only on their puppet-master's whims. But the only character that actually is a puppet in this sense is a flesh-and-blood human being. A man who made a deal with demons to get success and ended up with a hole in his back, a flaccid lump of flesh when no one was animating him. (I'm not even going to start getting into the meta-narration involved in David Fury as a puppet).


Replies:

[> THANK You Masq! I missed another good one.~sigh~ -- Briar Rose (life in minor chaos lately), 12:21:56 02/19/04 Thu

First I miss the Eve boinking, then I miss Angel turning someone for the GOOD and then I miss "Smile Time!" I'm going to have to pray for repeats regardless of the cancelation or buy the flipping DVD. ARGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!

Thank the Goddess for spoils and spec! This is why I don't see spoilers as a BAD thing. Sometimes it's the only way to keep abreast of the situational flow on the series.


[> [> Re: Website to find episodes -- Just Visiting, 15:10:18 02/19/04 Thu

If you want to see the episodes you missed and you don't want to wait for the reruns or the DVDs, you can go to this website:

www.buffy.nu

The site provides everything you could want to know about angel and buffy. You can download the episodes you couldnt watch and view them at your leisure. Hope that helps and it's better than just reading the spoilers.


[> [> [> Wow! Thank you so much just visiting! You are a truly wonderful person! -- Briar Rose, 23:29:42 02/23/04 Mon



[> Re: Puppets or puppets? (5.14 spoilers and some unspoiled spec) -- Darby, 12:27:44 02/19/04 Thu

And weren't two puppets arguing about the difference between metaphor and...was it analogy?

I agree that there's some very purposeful imagery here, but I'm not sure how to puzzle the meaning out.


[> [> Heh -- Rahael, 12:36:13 02/19/04 Thu

I just replied to Masq about this very point over in the other place before seeing this. Yeah, I think the disjuncture between the Puppet metaphor is meaningful. Wasn't the whole point of S4 about not being held thrall to destinies and larger powers etc? Wasn't it the right to make your decisions even if they were mistakes?


[> [> [> maybe that's just it -- anom, 13:15:14 02/19/04 Thu

Angel perceives himself as being a puppet, but he isn't really (even when he is literally). He still has free will & has had it all along, even though he doesn't feel that way.

So...by not recognizing his own free will, is he trying to evade responsibility? For what--Connor's new life (& his absence from Angel's & the gang's)? The whole dilemma of trying to do good w/the apparatus of evil? Hmm...does making the puppet metaphor literal remove it as a metaphor? Just within the show, not to the viewers? And does that leave it as analogy?

I don't have time to go into this any further (#^@&#* deadline!), but I'm sure others on this board will!


[> [> [> [> I hope (Spoilers, aired S5 eps) -- Rahael, 14:37:03 02/19/04 Thu

that the metaphor isn't disappearing so much as it's a mislead. Like, who is in control of whom?

I, from the beginning, have been rooting for AI to come out on top, despite the huge anvilly you are making a deal with the devil thing.

I do hope I'm not disappointed, but the Gunn thing makes me feel ishy about it.


[> [> [> [> [> Charles and Charly -- Katrina, 15:51:06 02/19/04 Thu

I like the word "ishy."

I don't mean this in any PC-way, more in an I've-always-liked-Gunn's-character way, but I thought it was a little offensive to compare a strong, heroic, self-educated guy who dropped out of school because (it's been established) he grew up in homeless shelters and was busy fighting vampires...to a character who was mentally retarded. They made two references to this, in case we didn't catch it the first time. And Gunn's whole "I can't go back to who I was" business really bugged me. I liked who he was! Fred liked who he was, and she's some kind of supergenius!


[> [> [> [> [> [> I liked him too, but... -- AngelVSAngelus, 19:12:29 02/19/04 Thu

Gunn's problem lies in his perception of himself, and what he feels are the perceptions of those around him of his worth. Fred liked who he was, but was also drawn to Wesley, and I'm certain Gunn assumed that she was attracted to him because of sharing intellect.


[> [> [> [> [> [> Absolutely -- Rahael, 21:31:09 02/19/04 Thu

Gunn, oh Gunn!

I'm so afraid for him, and have started to feel that he's the only character I'm really invested in - re the end of the season. His ending is really starting to matter to me, now that Cordy is gone....


[> [> [> [> [> [> i'm with you, katrina! -- anom, 23:42:21 02/19/04 Thu

And Gwen liked Gunn too--a lot! Doesn't he remember what she told him in Players--that he's not just the muscle, he's got a lot more going for him? Or didn't he ever really believe it in the 1st place? I wonder if he'll reach a point later in the season where he regrets making his upgrade permanent.

I also have to wonder, is the fading of the imprint really the Senior Partners taketh-ing it away? They made him their best lawyer; he's been handling things no one else could. Don't they still want him to be able to do that? If they want to keep their LA branch running, seems to me they need Gunn stay upgraded. So if the fadeout is their doing, that raises a couple of questions: Do the SPs want to keep W&H-LA going, or at least keep the Fang Gang running it? And if so, did they revoke Gunn's imprint in order to put him in a position where he felt he had to make the decision he did? After all, the cut to the doctor(?) who carried out the upgrade comes right after Lorne asks, "Is there a Gepetto in the house?"


[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Oh, good point, anom. Very interesting! -- Jane, 23:53:08 02/19/04 Thu



[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Agreement, Eve-L, & thoughts on the nature of W&H (spoilers up to 5.15 trailer) -- RadiusRS, 16:12:09 02/22/04 Sun

Excellent point anom! I think you're right about the Senior Partners not wanting the temporary upgrade for Gunn and The Doctor lied through his teeth. I think the artifact Fred is examining in the trailer for the next episode was the very same artifact he was trying to sneak through customs and using Gunn to do it.

After all, who sent Gunn to see The Doctor in the first place? Eve. Who left swearing vengance in "You're Welcome"? Eve. Who hinted that she was neither a young woman or even human in her first appearance? Eve. Who is the supposed liaison to the SP? Eve (I've never seen any proof that she has that kind of connection, though she is seemingly powerful enough to circumvent W&H security). Could Eve actually be The Conduit, the Panther? After all, the Panther was willing to give up dark matter in order to recorporealize Spike, which would have fit in with her and Lindsey's plan perfectly. Gunn also mentioned that the White Room is currently empty in the same sentence he mentioned Eve had disappeared ("Why We Fight" - which was when he mentioned something about creating another liason and then stopped abruptly, which at the time I took to mean that he was hiding something but in retrospect might just be the beginning of his mental slippage). If Eve is the conduit, then that could mean she's doing the Senior Partners will, but I doubt that given her relationship with Lindsey and his need for secrecy.

Wolfram & Hart has always rewarded the most evil behavior, including backstabbing, lying, manipulation, murder, etc., for those inside to get ahead. When Angel and his gang were given W&H (Lilah's word) they must have assumed that the deal included the SP. I think that instead, they were Totally Given it, and the SP have nothing to with what goes on there, they wiped their hands clean of the whole business, hoping Angel and his team would self-destruct and they would then hand over the reins to whomever made it happen. It is the gang's naive assumption that W&H is working with them that has precipitated their downfall, when W&H has just given them the instruments to do it themselves (an example I think was made clear in Gunn's case in "Smile Time"). The gang is not playing by their rules (once again Eve's insistence that in order for W&H L.A. Branch to keep working, they must compromise with evil), but rather by everyone else's. In which case Lindsey was following his own advice and changing the rules of the game, and Angel wasn't. I think the whole "getting over it, living in the present, being aware of where you are" motifs from the past few episodes are indicative that Angel has to get his head out of his ass (like he's been doing so far this season) and realize that he's the one with the power here, and that's why everyone's after him (Buffy season 7 theme!).


[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Agreement, Eve-L, & thoughts on the nature of W&H (spoilers up to 5.15 trailer) -- Jane, 20:01:34 02/22/04 Sun

Interesting. I didn't make the connection between Eve's disappearance and the vacancy in the white room, but I think you may have something there. If Eve is the Panther, then who is she working for? The last conduit was part of the RaTet, if I remember correctly. Maybe the occupant of the white room is tuned to some one/thing with a different agenda than the SPs. This has some interesting ties to HonorH's thought that Lindsey is actually working to bring down the SPs. Food for thought?


[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> i like that idea about w&h's role, but disagree w/this part -- anom, 20:59:33 02/22/04 Sun

"Could Eve actually be The Conduit, the Panther?"

I doubt it. In Destiny, Gunn goes to consult the Conduit but finds that it's gone & the White Room itself is replaced w/a "howling abyss." But Eve is still very much around.

"It is the gang's naive assumption that W&H is working with them that has precipitated their downfall, when W&H has just given them the instruments to do it themselves...In which case Lindsey was following his own advice and changing the rules of the game, and Angel wasn't."

Interesting idea, although I don't know if the writers would just keep the SPs out of it after making such a big deal about them. And Lindsey's own advice didn't work out so well for him, did it? At least as far as we've seen...but w/this show, you never know!


[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: i like that idea about w&h's role, but disagree w/this part (spoilers up to 5.14) -- RadiusRS, 22:14:23 02/22/04 Sun

Interesting idea, although I don't know if the writers would just keep the SPs out of it after making such a big deal about them. And Lindsey's own advice didn't work out so well for him, did it? At least as far as we've seen...but w/this show, you never know!

I agree, we never know with this show! But as HonorH, Arethusa, and Jane mentioned in another post above, perhaps Lindsey was using Angel and just took advantage of the situation for revenge. It didn't seem to me like he did everything he could to defeat Angel, I mean he could have just taken that sword out of Angel's heart and lopped off his head with his brand new skills. And for Linds to be sucked into the portal doesn't seem like the end the writers would give him, seeing as the first few seasons he was essentially Angel's Shadow and mirror, just on the other side of the Good/Evil line.
And as for the SP, I didn't mean to say that they were out of it. They've had very few direct interactions with the firm or the world, much like the PTB, and I can only recall "To Shanshu in L.A." and "Reprise" as the times they have actually done (or tried) something to affect the balance of power. Rather, I feel that they are like an evil man who gives a small child a gun, and then warns the child not to do anything with it, knowing full well that the child, in its curiosity, will want to explore the new power they've been given and could cause great damage. It's like the Serpent in the Garden of Eden. It didn't really do anything more than make Eve see a possibility, knowing that the choice she made with the Fruit of Knowledge would have devastating results for her and Adam. The image I had of them up until this season was that they were "Survival of the Fittest" folks, and knowing that Angel would become a target and prime for corruption with The Deal (which we still don't know the exact details of), are letting human nature take its course and will be around to pick up the pieces. They want Angel, yeah, but have never directly interceded on his behalf when he has been perilously close to death; they've also always struck me as adaptable and improvisational, case in point the episode "Reprise" where, even after the body the SP was manifesting in was destroyed (IIRC, he didn't destroy the SP itself, just its body), instead of vengance, they saw it as the best opportunity to bring Angel over to their side, and didn't really do much when he didn't, as far as I'm concerned. It seems to me they are firm believers in choice, and if they can set up a situation where evil choices are appealing, they'll make sure to present them and let humanity run its course, thereby wasting little energy and acheiving maximum results. Nor have they interceded by immediately whisking away Eve, though they must have some idea of her involvement.

"Could Eve actually be The Conduit, the Panther?"

I doubt it. In Destiny, Gunn goes to consult the Conduit but finds that it's gone & the White Room itself is replaced w/a "howling abyss." But Eve is still very much around.

I'm not too sure of this myself, but it does seem like a plausibilty. Since the "Universe falling apart" storyline hasn't even been mentioned since "Destiny", it seems to me that that whole thing was a diversion to alienate Angel and Spike and therefore set up Lindsey's plan to make the SP believe Spike is the Shanshu Prophecy vampire, which I take it to mean that Lindsey thinks Angel is the actual Shanshu vampire. It's possible that Eve (if she is the Conduit) set up the howling abyss or created that illusion to lend credence to the lie that the Universe was at stake. I mean, when have we ever seen access to the White Room to be an elevator door opening? It's always the white fadeout. And in "Home", the woman that took Gunn there was with him in the elevator when he entered, and had the skin tone and an outfit (plus, she hinted that she knew what purpose W&H and the SP had for him, another thing rare in W&H except among high-ranking members) that matched the motif of a jungle predator (zebra-lines top IIRC). In my memory, we have never seen anyone in the elevator to the White Room that didn't appear inside except for her, which leads me to believe that she WAS the Conduit (and it would also make sense that it was a she seeing as Mesektet was a she, on the outside at least). The last episode we saw the Conduit was Hellbound, and Eve wasn't around. Also, in "Conviction" there is a cut between scenes where there is a brief (subliminal almost) flash of the Conduit and then we see Eve.

And it has never sat well with me that Eve gets away with as much as she does right under the SP's noses, as they don't seem the type to be hoodwinked easily. I may be way off with this, but the W&H we've seen has never needed a liason between the SP and the firm, and when there has been one, it's always been whomever's in the White Room. I think a lot of the new information we've learned about the firm this season is just misdirection. And maybe as soon as Angel realizes what some of the truths of the situation he's in, he can actually turn it into a real force for good. After all, the SP gave him W&H, and as Wes has said and they have shown in the past, they do honor their agreements, albeit "in there own way".


[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I'd forgotten about that flash (spoilers to 5/14) -- Jane, 23:15:46 02/22/04 Sun

but I remember now thinking "huh, that's interesting". At first I thought the panther flash referred back to Gunn, but now I have to think maybe it was Eve, decloaked.


[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: i'm with you, katrina! -- Jay, 20:09:58 02/22/04 Sun

If they want to keep their LA branch running, seems to me they need Gunn stay upgraded.

I'm sure this has been pointed out elswhere, but, I guess I'll go ahead and say that Gunn's upgrade didn't start eroding until the Senior Partners called Lindsey home. Connected? Since I'm as far away from spoiled as you can find on a posting board, you'll won't find answers from me.


[> [> [> issues of thrall -- purplegrrl, 14:13:36 02/19/04 Thu

***Wasn't the whole point of S4 about not being held thrall to destinies and larger powers etc?***

Was Angel ever really in thrall to the Powers That Be? Supposedly the visions that Doyle and Cordy had were to "help" Angel on his chosen path of "helping the helpless." Not everything Angel did was based on a vision. Nor did he wait around doing nothing to help the helpless until gifted with another vision. And, yes, Angel floundered a bit when Cordy could no longer supply those visions. But he didn't become completely helpless. Now I'll grant you that accepting the Senior Partners' offer to run the L.A. branch of Wolfram & Hart was not one of his better decisions, despite the good he has done with their resources. There have been too many compromises. (I'd like to see an alternate version where Angel and the gang do NOT accept ownership and what happens when Cordy returns!) However, the compromises show the consequences of actions.

Angel could have chosen not to act on the visions sent by the PTBs. (Maybe it would have been interesting to see Angel refuse to act. What would the consequences have been? Would Doyle/Cordy keep having the same vision until Angel got off his butt and did something?) But he didn't. In thrall suggests that he *has* to comply with the orders/suggestions/visons. Angel did it because he is the Champion of Good, he was *supposed* to do it. He felt he was working for Good, and redeeming himself in the process.


[> [> [> [> Was actually meant to be a reference to Jasmine -- Rahael, 14:34:13 02/19/04 Thu

Which is why I specified S4, rather than the earlier ones.

The earlier seasons and the PTB in general? That's more complicated. Angel had already had his -even if nothhing matters - ephiphany by then. He wasn't doing it for a reward - this is echoed in the Lindsay thing this season.


[> [> [> [> Yes, this is my interpretation as well -- Masq, 14:39:46 02/19/04 Thu

When I heard that this ep was going to be a metaphor for Angel's relationship with the PTB's, I thought "since when has Angel been the PTB's puppet?" Last week's episode was a good metaphor for some of Angel's interactions with the PTBs. If you think of Ensign Lawson as Angel, and the US military as the PTBs, with Angel in that episode as the PTBs cryptic messanger saying, "follow my orders" and Lawson getting frustrated with this and questioning Angel, that sounds a little more like Angel's relationship with the PTBs. Not all of it, of course, because Angel did a lot of good with the visions he was sent.

But he was always free to take or leave the PTB's visions.

So maybe this episode (Smile Time) was a metaphor for Angel's relationship with the Senior Partners. Is Angel their puppet? Again sort of, but not really. He's had to compromise, but he's been well aware of when he's had to do that, and he did it with his eyes wide open.

So I think it's more the case what others are arguing in this thread. The "puppet" metaphor is meant to be ironic. Angel discovers, through being a puppet, that he has more freedom than even he realized he had--as a puppet he was freer to make a fool of himself by expressing his emotions. And as a puppet, the only thing holding him back was his fuzzy felt hands. He had more control over his life than the human puppet-maker, who was the real puppet of the episode.


[> [> [> [> [> Re: Yes, this is my interpretation as well -- purplegrrl, 14:58:43 02/19/04 Thu

***So maybe this episode (Smile Time) was a metaphor for Angel's relationship with the Senior Partners.***

Could this mean that the Senior Partners are the "Powers That Be" in Angel's life now?? Angel hasn't really heard from the PTBs of Good since Cordelia was taken over by The First Evil (Cordy said she had a vision when she visited, but it may not have been, or just how she could describe it).

Wolfram & Hart couldn't make DarkAngel stick. The First Evil couldn't make S4-Angel blindly follow Jasmine forever. Do the Senior Partners think they can compromise Angel to death?? Or at least until he abandons his role in the "upcoming" apocalypse? (Or have we seen *that* apocalypse on S7 BtVS and now it's a whole new playing field??)

(My head hurts now!! Grrr. Arrgh.)


[> [> [> [> [> [> In a way he has heard from them (spoilers You're Welcome) -- Lunasea, 05:37:10 02/20/04 Fri

Cordy comes back, with the help of the PTBs, to put "my guy back on track." She doesn't try to get Angel to leave Wolfram and Hart. She just wants him to believe that he can rise above being in the belly of the beast. That is what being on track means. I know there are a great deal of people that want to see him realize he made a mistake and leave Wolfram and Hart. I have seen nothing in the show that would support this. Angel has to find and sustain his heart (thus resist corruption) while at Wolfram and Hart. The PTBs have even agreed with this with the mission they sent Cordy back with. They sent her back with a vision that saved him from Lindsey's revenge. They are still looking out for him.

I'm not going to say that anything Cordy said in "You're Welcome" was either a lie or a misperception on her part. It was Cordy's send-off and such an episode is going to do this with dignity and beauty, especially after what happened S4.


[> [> [> [> [> Warm and fuzzy -- Ann, 17:52:20 02/19/04 Thu

"And as a puppet, the only thing holding him back was his fuzzy felt hands."
It was a pleasure to see Angel "feel" warm and fuzzy, "feel" pleasure, "feel" anger, "feel" lust. He got to shout, to swear. Felt is the past tense of feel. No wonder he was made of that as a muppet. Angel is now experiencing emotions in the present tense. He is feeling emotions in a non-Angelus way.

The visions others had, was another way of Angel not feeling. Doyle and Cordy got to "feel" the visions. They always complained of the pain. Angel learned of the visions in a second hand way. Maybe now he will get to feel much more in his life.

Also, I think the giant scissors in the puppet studio was a message that the strings have been cut from what was holding Angel back. Perhaps even from the PTB or the SP.


[> [> [> [> OK -- purplegrrl, 14:43:24 02/19/04 Thu

I see your point (and should have, since I've been re-watching S4 on TNT recently).

But that thrall was fairly short lived, wasn't it?


[> [> [> [> [> Thematically -- Rahael, 14:52:44 02/19/04 Thu

I think the Jasmine arc was very important. Also I love S4, so I tend to endow it with a lot of importance.

But mostly, it's because i had a huge S5 Angel marathon yesterday and watched every single ep I've missed (except Damage) and I was very interested in "you're welcome" (Which I really loved btw)

What is the significance of referencing Doyle again? Hmmmmm


[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Thematically -- purplegrrl, 15:03:56 02/19/04 Thu

Not saying the Jasmine arc wasn't important. It's just that Angel's relationship with the PTBs happened to be the first thing that came to mind when I thought of Angel in thrall to something/someone.

Angel did chafe somewhat in the beginning when he was told that he would be receiving information from the PTBs that he was supposed to act on. He didn't feel like he had a choice in the matter.


[> [> [> [> [> [> It works! -- Masq, 15:40:35 02/19/04 Thu

it's because i had a huge S5 Angel marathon yesterday

I was pretty meh on this season even up through Damage, which I liked. I decided that I wasn't giving season 5 a fair shake, and part of the reason for that is I didn't feel compelled to re-watch any of the episodes more than once (once just to see it, the second time to do my site analysis). In past seasons, I'd re-watch episodes over and over.

So I did a marathon, all the way through to "You're Welcome", and then I did it again, and again. I was going to watch it until I liked it. Familiarity either breeds love or contempt.

But then we had the brilliance of "Why We Fight", and "Smile Time", and I fell in love with my show all over again anyway. And the encouraging words of my friends after my recent angst over the memory wipe helped a lot, too.

So now, just as we get the cancellation news, I am excited for the end of the season to to unfold. It's ironic. But just reading the comments of everyone today, I'm already planning what I will write on the postcards I'm sending out as part of the SaveAngel! campaign.


[> [> Re: Puppets or puppets? (5.14 spoilers and some unspoiled spec) -- Masq, 12:36:15 02/19/04 Thu

And weren't two puppets arguing about the difference between metaphor and...was it analogy?

They never argued about that issue in itself, just whether one demo-puppet would get a chance to do the last show on that topic or not.

I found that line interesting. I'm a fiction writer, and lately I've been reading a lot about metaphor/simile/analogy trying to analyze their use in my own writing. I was amused by that line, because it struck me as one of those cases where the episode writer was trying to think of topics for an educational television show to put in the episode script and came up with one from his own profession.


[> [> Yes, that was Groofus.... (5.14 spoilers and some unspoiled spec) -- Rufus, 18:08:24 02/19/04 Thu

I posted a bit on The Stakehouse about the need for a character called Rufus and in the sides sure enough there was a character called Rufus in Smile Time.....but horror upon horror..Rufus was a DOG!!!!!!!!!!! Anyone who saw my holiday pic of Rufus with the glasses may know that was my tongue in cheek reference to the character being a dog. If you saw a week earlier you would have seen Dub's dog "Moocher" who looks very much like the puppet in the episode.....therefore you end up with "Groofus"....I think it was sweet, even if a dog....;)


[> [> [> Link to picture proof of Groofus as Moocher. (5.14 spoilers and some unspoiled spec) -- Rufus, 18:13:38 02/19/04 Thu

There is a happy holiday pic of Moocher and Rufus's comment on the use of "her" name for a dog puppet are in the photo section....


Trollop board


Or go to the Trollop board photo section.


[> [> [> [> Do we have to sign in for the Trollop Board now? -- cougar, 18:35:39 02/19/04 Thu



[> [> [> [> [> Yes, you do because we were having problems with posters -- Rufus, 20:13:59 02/19/04 Thu

sending our members virus's through the e-mail. Sorry.


[> Re: Puppets or puppets? (5.14 spoilers and some unspoiled spec) -- Arethusa, 12:30:37 02/19/04 Thu

I thought the same thing about the main puppet; he was like a child molester in that scene.

It's the man who will do anything to make his tv show a success who becomes turned into a puppet. Is Whedon feeling like a puppet being yanked around by the WB? If he wasn't before, he probably is now.

Puppet!Angel actually seemed more free emotionally than Angel. He was able to give Fred (Fred's knees, actually) a big hug in gratitude, open up a little to Nina, and confess that he's trying to pay more attention to the people around him. He's always been embarrased about being a vampire; becoming a puppet seemed to be the last straw in humiliation. He's finally able to overcome that emotion and ask Nina out. It's a big step for Angel. It doesn't matter that he's a puppet. What matters is what he thinks of himself, what he does with his life, and how he interacts with the people around him.

Self-esteem is for everyone!


[> [> Re: Puppets or puppets? (5.14 spoilers and some unspoiled spec) -- Rahael, 12:39:49 02/19/04 Thu

Or that Whedon feels that his characters have taken him over and are pulling his strings and he's just at their behest!!

Maybe it was a cry for help - -- I made a deal with these demonic creations and now they hold me in thrall and I haven't even got better ratings!


[> [> The quote-able Joss -- Masq, 12:50:20 02/19/04 Thu

It's the man who will do anything to make his tv show a success who becomes turned into a puppet.

Oh, why do I think this was not a coincidence, even though it was written before the cancellation? To quote Joss:

"Two roads diverged in a wood, and I took the road less traveled by and they CANCELLED MY FRIKKIN' SHOW. I totally shoulda took the road that had all those people on it. Damn." (joss, Feb 14 22:31 2004)


[> [> Re: Puppets or puppets? (5.14 spoilers and some unspoiled spec) -- Masq, 12:52:32 02/19/04 Thu

Puppet!Angel actually seemed more free emotionally than Angel. He was able to give Fred (Fred's knees, actually) a big hug in gratitude, open up a little to Nina, and confess that he's trying to pay more attention to the people around him. He's always been embarrased about being a vampire; becoming a puppet seemed to be the last straw in humiliation. He's finally able to overcome that emotion and ask Nina out. It's a big step for Angel. It doesn't matter that he's a puppet. What matters is what he thinks of himself, what he does with his life, and how he interacts with the people around him.

Yeah, that too! Not only did Angel have free will as a "puppet", he was FREER as a puppet than he is as an ordinary man/vamp! Good point.


[> Re: Puppets or puppets? (5.14 spoilers and some unspoiled spec) -- neaux, 12:35:37 02/19/04 Thu

Well I think this episode is still about control.. but in another re-affirming role for Angel. Angel is turned into a puppet and his immediate fears are they he would have no control. He does have physcial limitations. He is a lot smaller/shorter, He can get the stuffin knocked out of himself.. and He has short stubby hands. He can't even use the remote CONTROL. So at first, this one act frustrates him. The gang even makes a few jokes at his expense and try to hold back their laughter. So again maybe Angel is afraid he can't control Wolfram and Hart. (its a general metaphor but hey)
This is one reason why he hides under the desk when Nina arrives. If no one will take him seriously, why would Nina?

But he takes steps into re-affirmation of who he is and slowly regains his control. Spike laughs in Angel's face, but this only helps Angel realize he can still kick Spike's ass. so affirmation #1, Angel can still fight!

After the fight, the office sees that Angel is now puppetized.. and he groans that they "get back to work." Although they were shocked, they eventually go back to work. Affirmation #2.

The gang accepts him and follows his lead. Affirmation #3

When he fights the puppets, He still has control over his Vampireness as well. Affirmation #4.

So then events help Angel realize he is still the same person more or less and these events encourage him to confront Nina. It doesnt seem to bother him that he will be a puppet for a couple more days either.

so maybe we need to look to the humans more closely.. are they the real puppets? It seems that Gunn has gotten himself into a situation with the doctor that might relate to this puppet theme.

Fred wants some sort of attention from Wes.. which implies a desire for control. She wants Wes to drive him home from work and he is blind to her affection.

Nina needs physical control and locks herself in her cage so she doesnt wolf out on everyone and yet she still mauls Angel. She has a fear we have seen with Oz.

Wes.. well seems to have his $%#@ together.. but we need to wait and see.


[> [> Oooh, I like that! -- Masq, 13:34:54 02/19/04 Thu

so maybe we need to look to the humans more closely.. are they the real puppets?

Angel, the actual puppet, finds out he has more control over his normal self than he thought he did. David Fury (forget his character's name), the human, was the real 'puppet'.

So it's the humans who are the puppets this season. And the vampire who has more control than he thinks he has.


[> [> [> Re: Oooh, I like that! -- angel's nibblet, 01:22:13 02/20/04 Fri

David Fury (forget his character's name), the human, was the real 'puppet'.

Was it the man himself??? No wonder he looked so familiar *smacks self*!!!


[> [> [> [> David Fury -- Masq, 12:36:12 02/20/04 Fri

Was it the man himself??? No wonder he looked so familiar *smacks self*!!!

I was noting that not only was he in this episode, he was the mustard man in Once More With Feeling. After I noted that, Dead Soul pointed out that he was also one of the guys sacrificing goats in the teaser to Reprise in AtS s. 2.

He should be a familiar face!


[> [> [> [> [> Re: David Fury -- angel's nibblet, 15:33:07 02/20/04 Fri

Yes I knew about the mustard dude, but this guy just loves making cameos doesn't he! Had no idea he was goat man too...


[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: David Fury -- Antigone, 15:57:07 02/20/04 Fri

From what I read, Mr. Fury has an extensive background in acting and musicals and enjoys that kind of work very much. Probably why they use him so much. That and the whole "ME writer/puppet" analogy, which gives me a headache!!


[> [> [> And, in Why We Fight -- Fleem, 17:20:34 02/21/04 Sat

Remember that all the human characters were hanging on strings.


[> Re: Puppets or puppets? (5.14 spoilers and some unspoiled spec) -- Rob, 13:37:30 02/19/04 Thu

The way I interpreted the metaphor of the episode was that Angel has felt like a puppet of W&H for the past few months, but once he actually becomes a real puppet, he realizes (or should come to realize soon) that he is not. That he has free will. He has the free will to use W&H for his good purposes, just as much as the "puppets" of "Smile Time" use their free will for evil. I think it was meant to imply that Angel has this power now to use for good or ill, and despite how it might look to the outside observer (including Buffy) that he is now a puppet of The Biggest Bads in the world, he has just as much control in his destiny as the "Smile Time" puppets do. Perhaps the "puppet" will turn the tables on W&H just as the literal puppets did to their puppetmaker.

Rob


[> [> Re: Puppets or puppets? (5.14 spoilers and some unspoiled spec) -- purplegrrl, 14:39:53 02/19/04 Thu

This is also in response to Masq's post directly above.

If by temporarily becoming a puppet Angel now realizes that he's "got the power" (control), will we be seeing real changes in the L.A. branch of Wolfram & Hart?? Wouldn't he be concerned that the Senior Partners will do to him what they did to Lindsey and Eve? Or were Lindsey and Eve done away with because they wanted to steal what had been freely given to Angel? (If I were Angel, I would still be concerned, very concerned.)

Angel has been trying to use Wolfram & Hart for good purposes for several months now. And it seems that he has been thwarted or forced to compromise as nearly every turn. How will Angel do things differently to make things go smoother, better?? Will there be lay-offs? (It appears that Fred's assistant is being pushed aside. Or is that just Fred re-asserting a professional relationship?) As a big corporation, evil or otherwise, Wolfram & Hart has its own momentum. It will be hard to change ways of thinking and doing that have gone on for so long. (For example, the annual Halloween party.)

Or will Angel simply go on accepting the compromises that have become part and parcel of running Wolfram & Hart?? Will he start to feel better about these compromises? Will he look for ways to make them more lopsided in favor of Good? (I hope we see some real corporate shaking and head rolling in upcoming episodes. I don't like all the compromises. Yes, there has been some good done -- as well as some good episodes. But I was somewhat disappointed that Angel and the gang accepted the Senior Partners' offer in the first place. [I know, I know. Movement and growth.])

Maybe I just don't see how Angel can make additional changes. What he can do differently than he is already doing.

(BTW, I *really* enjoyed Puppet!Angel. Especially when he vamped out!)


[> [> [> Re: Puppets or puppets? (5.14 spoilers and some unspoiled spec) -- Mike, 02:32:48 02/21/04 Sat

I think you have some insightful questions about Angel dealing with remaining at Wolfram and Hart, making compromises and still trying to "help the "helpless" using this powerful, evil tool. Angel has been a fixated "puppet" through the years by various forces(PTB, Jasmine, Saihjan, First Evil, etc), a clear pawn (puppet) in the middle of the Good Vs. Evil chessboard. But I think it has become more apparent that The Senior Partners and the rest of Wolfram and Hart have been Angel's main puppetmaster.

The Senior Partners have wanted Angel on their side since forever. Lindsey and Eve are expendable as well as many others as Holland Manners replacement, Nathan, once said
to Lindsey early in the series. Angel is a phenomenon, unique, non-expendable. Lindsey and Eve were trying to kill Angel, or, at least, tried to mess with his destiny. I don't think Angel would be concerned about what happened to them happening to him, not yet anyways. Angel is currently back on track as a Champion and may now become better as a CEO, hence feeling the sense of power/control on the side of Good.

Unfortunately, Angel may not be able to change much in the LA branch of Wolfram and Hart. The compromises of using evil to do good may be yet another, if more brilliant, tactic for Wolfram and Hart to slowly begin turning Angel greyer and disconnecting him from the side of good and The Fang Gang as well. A plan that the firm tried to execute since the very beginning, thus he would still remain a "puppet". Their plan could be going exactly as strategized, a little compromise or change here and there but the grand scheme of things is still playing itself out in favor of Evil.

Angel had made a deal to save Connor, thus however he feels or whatever he does he will deal with it anyways (for his love and sacrifice towards Connor). Whatever happens, as long as the deal is still in place, Angel probably knows
that he won't be able to affect significant changes in favor of Good.

If things start to get worse like I think they will, Angel may have to look back once more and think was his decision to run Wolfram and Hart really worth the price to give Connor a new life.


[> A quote from of all shows "Millenium" on Free Will (5.14 spoilers and some unspoiled spec) -- Rufus, 14:56:33 02/19/04 Thu

From the Millenium episode..."Somehow Satan got Behind Me"

I think any fan of Millenium will remember the episode with four demons talking about their interactions with the mortal world. I found the quote from the demon below to be of interest.....

BLURK: You know, we were so envious when man was given free will. But what does has it brought them? The belief that their lives are determined by anything other than their own free will.


[> [> Re: A quote from of all shows "Millenium" on Free Will (5.14 spoilers and some unspoiled spec) -- Arethusa, 15:41:45 02/19/04 Thu

I think that's right to the point. If Angel is on an existential journey, he has to rid himself of the idea that he is being controlled by anyone but himself. That goes for TPTB last year and perhaps the Senior Partners this year. Of course, I think both are the same thing-creatures from another dimesion, neither divine nor demonic in a religious sense.


[> [> There's a candle burning in my window for you, Darin Morgan. Come back to us! -- Pony, 18:32:04 02/19/04 Thu



[> But who else is a puppet (5.14 spoilers and some unspoiled spec) -- Dlgood, 20:52:20 02/19/04 Thu

Maybe it's the Senior Partners. Like Framkin, Wolfram & Hart had a really bad year, and had to make a deal with those they deemed unsavory in order to vault the firm back to the #1 spot.

And as far as we can tell, these puppets - the MoG are helpign W&H back to a prominent position - at least as prominent as they were before the beast killed all the staff.

Except that Framkin wasn't in complete control, and maybe the SP aren't either. Maybe the end of the season will reveal that Angel can pull the strings of the SP like Polo did with Framkin. Although, I suspect several puppet heads are going to get chopped in the process.


[> It's good to see they still managed to convey Angel's brooding forehead! (spoliers 5x14....I guess) -- angel's nibblet, 00:27:11 02/20/04 Fri

...and when Puppet-Angel walked back from the elevator after kicking the crap out of Spike, he even walked like Angel, with the broodiness and all! Made me laugh a whole bunch...


[> [> And the fangs.. -- Jane, 03:29:57 02/20/04 Fri

Me too. I loved the fight scene between Spike and PuppetAngel. Bet JM had a hard time keeping a straight face during it! And the hugging of Fred's knees: "I love you guys". Made me go awww.


[> [> [> Re: And the fangs.. -- Humanitas, 14:41:23 02/22/04 Sun

Was anyone else reminded of the old "Muppet Show" ep with Vincent Price? There was a great scene where Price explains to Kermit that turning into a Vapire was a matter of concentration, or some such. At which point, Kermit promptly vamps out and attacks!

Now, as a fan-boy, I gotta ask the question: "Who would win in a fight, vamp-Kermit, or puppet-Angel?"

;->


[> [> [> [> Well, it's not easy being green....;-) -- Jane, 19:27:16 02/22/04 Sun



[> [> [> [> some q's. on puppets & physiology (spoilers for smile time) -- anom, 21:41:34 02/22/04 Sun

Specifically, puppet vamp physiology. Ya gotta wonder, if Puppet!Angel could still vamp out, what other vampire characteristics did he retain? Obviously, still no heartbeat or need to breathe...& as we saw, he's still got much more than the proportionate strength of a human. Since he doesn't have blood, we can be pretty sure he doesn't drink it. What about vamp vulnerabilities? Both puppets & vampires can be destroyed by fire, but could Puppet!Angel have withstood sunlight? If his heart is made of felt like the rest of him, would staking have killed him, or would the wound just have been (sorry) heartfelt? And if Werewolf!Nina had torn his head off, would he have turned to...lint?


[> [> [> [> [> Re: some q's. on puppets & physiology (spoilers for smile time) -- Jane, 23:18:44 02/22/04 Sun

Well, she certainly knocked the stuffing out of him! :-)

Fred's Romantic History -- Claudia, 16:19:42 02/19/04 Thu

Is Winifred Burkle probably the flakiest female in Jossverse history, when it comes to romance? I wonder.

When she joined the cast, she had an intense crush on Angel. When that didn't work out, she refocused her attention on Gunn, until the Professor Siedel incident. But he broke it off, before she could and then she tried to rebound with Wes. Only she found out from Angelus that Wes had an affair with Lilah. Once the Fang Gang moved on to W&H, she became enamoured of Knox. Only, for some reason I cannot fathom, she decided to give Knox the brush-off and re-focus her attention upon Wes. Maybe she got a big thrill from him pumping nine bullets into RogerBot for her.

What is up with this girl?


Replies:

[> Re: Fred's Romantic History -- Glenn66, 18:20:31 02/19/04 Thu

She spent 5 years living in cave, and probably was never the most elegant social being before that...


[> Re: Fred's Romantic History -- kickin' shins, 06:24:55 02/20/04 Fri

Haha...Maybe she really WAS flirting with Willow?


[> [> Re: Fred's Romantic History -- Claudia, 08:59:52 02/20/04 Fri

"Haha...Maybe she really WAS flirting with Willow?"

I wouldn't count that out. Let's face it. Fred has never really understood any of the men in her life - Angel, Gunn, Wes and Knox.


[> [> [> You can add her evil professor to that list -- CW, 09:54:17 02/20/04 Fri

Not exactly a love interest, but someone she looked up to, and put faith in. It figures Fred would have so much trouble with understanding men in the ME universe. She's the only one with a loving, caring father. ;o)


[> [> [> [> Re: You can add her evil professor to that list -- Claudia, 09:55:41 02/20/04 Fri

It's too bad that Fred has begun a romance with Wes. I think she would be better off, staying away from romance.


[> She may be rambly at time and even tangental, (mild spoilers Smile Time) -- Lunasea, 12:11:30 02/20/04 Fri

but she is not flakey, romantically or any other way.

First, let me give my disclaimer: I LOVE FRED!!!! It isn't often on TV that you see an intelligent character really have to deal with that sort of intelligence and the alienation it brings.

Second, I am the one who will be writing the character essay on Fred and what follows is what has been gelling about that (though not the final form), so any feedback from the board is greatly appreciated.

Now what I actually want to say. Prior to Pylea, Fred's identity revolved around her brain. We tend to play up our strengths and downplay our weaknesses. Fred is incredibly smart, moreso than Wesley or Giles. This is affirmed in "Provider" when the Nahdrahs want Fred, not Wesley, to be the head for their prince. When you are that smart, that tends to be all you see yourself as. In "Spin the Bottle" we see 17 year old Fred's body-image. One consequence of living in the theoretical/mental world is that we tend to dissociate from our body, especially if that body doesn't measure up.

This person is sucked into a portal. We later find out the reason for this is that her professor fears academic competition with her. In Pylea she can no longer live in the theoretical. She has to be primarily concerned with her physical existence as she is forced to fight for her very survival. Writing on the walls is one way she can have one foot still in that theoretical/mental world. When she comes back from Pylea, that is exactly where she goes. It is an adaptive technique in order to do something she is familiar and comfortable with.

But Pylea has changed her forever. She used her mind to survive, but she also had to rely on the physical. That still isn't how she sees herself. She sees herself as a brain. When she lists everyone's rolls in "Fredless," since Wesley is the brain, she has no roll. She stays because she learns she is a different kind of brain, one that is needed. She isn't attracted to Wesley, though, because she sees him as a brain and she doesn't need that side of her reinforced.

She is attracted to Gunn. He is muscle and he sees her as much more than brain. She is "hot mamma" and he compliments her not on her brain, but on everything else, from how much she eats, to how kick-ass her weapon was. He loves the parts of her that she can't even see.

Then together they murder Professor Seidel. Fred, as she tends to do, retreats. She needs to come to terms with what they did. Gunn takes this very personally. It had nothing to do with him or her feelings toward him. It had to do with the girl that writes on the cave walls in order to come to grips with things.

But both of them gave each other things in that relationship that made them both stronger. This is symbolized in "Apocalypse Nowish" when Gunn can see the pattern in the papers that the others are missing. It is Fred that sees patterns and makes connections. That is her strong suit. Fred's moment of independence doesn't come until she is on the run in "Magic Bullet." In kissing Angel, she was reconnecting back to the whole person that he symbolizes on the show.

Fred and Gunn are both stronger, but now have moved on. She is interested in that cute, smart and even funny guy that works in her lab. That is until "You're Welcome." As Wesley is doing the spell that will decloak Lindsey, Fred starts to see him. She is no longer looking for someone, but at. She starts to see Wesley, not as a brain, but as someone with a certain sense of humor that she likes. She sees him as a man, not a "sexless shoulder to lean on."

There was an important moment in "Smile Time." Unlike "Lineage" where she expected Wesley to arm her, she came packing heat herself. She saved him and stood up to undo the binding spell that protected the nest egg, thus giving children back their innocent life force. This is very important, because in some ways, Pylea stole her innocence. This moment is stating that Fred has recovered for that and is no longer cookie dough. She is ready for a relationship that isn't based so much on how another sees her, but how she sees them.

Not remotely flakey IMO.


[> [> Smarter than Wesley or Giles? -- Gyrus, 13:08:25 02/20/04 Fri

Fred is incredibly smart, moreso than Wesley or Giles. This is affirmed in "Provider" when the Nahdrahs want Fred, not Wesley, to be the head for their prince.

Did the Nahdrahs actually choose Fred OVER Wesley? I thought they just chose her because she was able to solve their puzzle (which Wes never got the opportunity to attempt, IIRC).

In any case, I'm not sure I buy the notion that Fred is smarter than Wesley. Rather, I think they are intelligent in different ways. If one defines intelligence as one's capacity for abstract thought, then yes, Fred is smarter (as demonstrated by her ability to understand the mathematics that underlies magic, dimensional travel, etc.). However, if one defines intelligence as the ability to learn, then Wesley easily as smart as Fred, judging by the sheer amount of knowledge (languages, lore, etc.) he has acquired during his lifetime.

In the simplest terms, Fred has spatial and mathematical intelligence, whereas Wesley has verbal intelligence.


[> [> [> Re: Smarter than Wesley or Giles? -- Lunasea, 14:07:18 02/20/04 Fri

In the simplest terms, Fred has spatial and mathematical intelligence, whereas Wesley has verbal intelligence.

Which is an interesting gender reversal because it is usually men who are viewed as the former and women the latter.

I still stand by my original assessment that Fred is smarter than Wesley. I don't remember seeing Fred make any of the mistakes that Wesley did. When it came to the Tro-Clan, she came up with the correct date, to the second, rather quickly. She seems to have no problems understanding what he does, as she explains in "Quickening." I'm not sure how much of what she does he understands. Much of what Wesley knows that Fred doesn't comes from experience and study. Fred picks things up incredibly quickly. She wasn't educated by the Watcher's Council and she has picked up the demon world in no time.

It was Fred, not Wesley, that sent for Willow. It was Fred that figured out about Jasmine. Fred is a lot more than math and pattern girl. The Nahdrahs did choose her over Wesley.

Angel: "Ah, these are the guys that wanted Wesley."
Lorne: "Not anymore. Now they want Fred."

There seems to be a definite choice there, not just that Wesley was unavailable. They were more impressed with her recognizing what their tunics were than Wesley's ideas about demon DNA.

All that matters, though, is Fred is super smart. I think it fits Wesley's character to be very smart, but not quite the potential of Fred.


[> [> [> [> Good points -- Gyrus, 14:12:44 02/20/04 Fri

Hmm...you've got a point there. I guess it's the difference between "very smart" (Wesley) and "freakishly smart" (Fred).

Where would you say Willow falls on that continuum?


[> [> [> [> [> Willow is difficult to put on a scale -- Lunasea, 14:32:11 02/20/04 Fri

Because her intelligence got replaced with the magic and exploring sexuality storylines. At one point in S4, Buffy was asked to present a paper and Willow experienced academic jealousy. Willow managed to use science over magic in season 6, but her intelligence really wasn't explored. Maybe that is why they wrote Fred, so they could explore that storyline. I'm glad they did and think they have done a great job with it.

I thought they did a great job with Willow as well and I'm glad they explored how her self-esteem or lack of it affected her. This lack tends to be tied more to her mother or being relatively less powerful than Buffy than the alienation that results from being ultra-smart.

Willow and Fred, my two favorite characters in the Buffyverse (but don't tell Angel, shhhh).


[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Willow intelligence -- AngelVSAngelus, 23:10:28 02/21/04 Sat

I'm pretty certain that the government attempting to recruit you for software design while you're in high school is a sure sign of super-intelligence. Her proficiency in math, science, AND computer-science (i.e. hacking, decryption) coupled with her acceptance to so many high profile colleges seem to point at Willow being extremely intelligent.
Where she rates next to Wes, Giles, and Fred (should we now add Gunn to that list?) is anybody's guess, as they are each attributed with different specialties and fields of particular knowledge. But she certainly wouldn't be baffled, say as Xander would, in the same room with the brains conversing.


[> [> Re: She may be rambly at time and even tangental, (mild spoilers Smile Time) -- Claudia, 13:12:54 02/20/04 Fri

"She is attracted to Gunn. He is muscle and he sees her as much more than brain."

I love Fred, too. But the problem I've always had with her is that she tends to see the men in her life from a one-dimensional point of view. Angel was her "rescuer". Gunn was the strong "muscle" of the group - and we all know that he was more than that. In "Calvary" (I think), Angelus had pointed out that she viewed Wesley as some kind of knight. I wonder if she still views Wes in that manner.

Is Fred looking for someone to help her get over the loneliness and horror she had experienced in Pylea? If so, the only person she can turn to, in the end, is herself.


[> [> Re: She may be rambly at time and even tangental, (mild spoilers Smile Time) -- Shmoopy, 20:48:42 02/20/04 Fri

"There was an important moment in "Smile Time." Unlike "Lineage" where she expected Wesley to arm her, she came packing heat herself. She saved him and stood up to undo the binding spell that
protected the nest egg, thus giving children back their innocent life force. This is very important, because in some ways, Pylea stole her innocence. This moment is stating that Fred has recovered for that
and is no longer cookie dough. She is ready for a relationship that isn't based so much on how another sees her, but how she sees them."


De-lurking here, to point out something else about that scene I noticed. Fred uses her gun to save Wesley from being hit by a fire extinguisher, the same weapon she uses to defend herself against possessed Wesley in "Billy". Nice symbolism to show that the damage Billy caused is finally over.

Shmoopy


[> [> [> Re: She may be rambly at time and even tangental, (mild spoilers Smile Time) -- Claudia, 12:36:44 02/23/04 Mon

"This moment is stating that Fred has recovered for that
and is no longer cookie dough. She is ready for a relationship that isn't based so much on how another sees her, but how she sees them."

I'm sorry, but I cannot agree with this. How can I say this? That scene does not seem like a substantial hint that Fred is "mature" enough to have an adult romance. If she really was that mature, she would have realized what Wesley's shooting of RogerBot really meant. At least by this episode.


[> [> [> [> Re: She may be rambly at time and even tangental, (mild spoilers Smile Time) -- Finn Mac Cool, 14:15:10 02/23/04 Mon

RogerBot, a guy who: tried to suck away Angel's free will, was associated with the cyborgs who were killing evil humans, had arranged the attack on W&H, showed potential willingness to shoot Wesley, threatened to shoot Fred, and was an enormous jerk to boot.

It seems to me that Wesley had a plethora of reasons for shooting what he believed to be his father.


[> [> [> [> [> Re: She may be rambly at time and even tangental, (mild spoilers Smile Time) -- Claudia, 12:45:15 02/24/04 Tue

I'm not really concerned about what RogerBot was or what he tried to do. I'm concerned with Fred's reaction to the shooting, which struck me as immature. Or blind.

Just as she had done in "Players", it seemed that Fred, once again, failed to understand Wes. She seemed so desperate not consider the fact that Wesley was willing to shoot his father NINE TIMES that she immediately grasped upon the fact that Roger Wyndham-Price was a cyborg. This seems like blindness at its worse.

Come to think of it, if Fred was so disturbed by Gunn's murder of Professor Siedel, why did she make an attempt to reconcile with him in "Release"? An attempt, by the way, that eventually failed.


[> [> [> [> [> [> Even if it was the real thing, it still would have been justifiable -- Finn Mac Cool, 18:52:02 02/24/04 Tue

He was posing a threat to Fred, Angel, and a lot of other people. Shooting RogerBot was the only forseeable way of stopping him. While you may see nine bullets as over and above the neccessary, you have to consider the fact that, in the heat of the moment, it's hard to be sure how many shots you've fired, whether any of them have hit, or if RogerBot was hit but still in good enough shape to keep firing. As long as Fred sees the act as morally justifiable, why should she be disturbed?

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