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SPOILERS Soul Purpose + Shells - Questions -- Patrick Lewis, 11:29:25 02/15/04 Sun

Sorry if this has already been posted before...

I just saw the episode "Soul Purpose," which was awesome by the way; and in one of Angel's dreams, has anyone noticed that Fred talks about a shell in Angel's belly, in which she can hear the sea?
And we all know that Episode 16 is entitled "Shells." Is there any connection?

Also, have you noticed that this episode looks a lot like BtVS's "Restless"?

Last question: has anyone figured out who the guy from Sunnydale who is supposed to come in "A Hole in the World" is?

Replies:

[> Re: SPOILERS Soul Purpose + Shells - Questions Extreme Spoilers... Well Maybe ;) -- heywhynot, 11:51:50 02/15/04 Sun

ME knows how to do dreams which is why "Soul Purpose" in some ways harkened back to Restless. Dreams when being influenced to a certain direction are still filled with non-linear aspects. Whether there is a direction connection to the upcoming episode "Shells" is unknown. Probably on some level it will.

And well I think I have figured out who is coming from Sunnydale. The only character that has even a chance of saving the day, the one fans have been clamoring for since Buffy ended, He that Strikes Terror into the Hearts of Kittens Everywhere, the great....

Clem
.
.
.
.

(joking and if it does come to pass consider this a sign that the end days are upon us and please plan accordingly).

* note: not bashing Clem, just trying to point out it is very unlikely (in other words I have no idea who is coming). Though the only one to come from Sunnydale this season from Sunnydale itself was Spike. Andrew obviously did not come from Sunnydale, since well there is no Sunnydale.

Just idle speculation:

If you have a Hole in the World, why not use a Key? A month after her movie comes out, keeps her in the public eye w/out being over-exposed.

Think: Have we ever had a Dawn/Angel scene? Seeing Spike alive again. Her creation and how it compares/contrasts to Connor. If W&H mind "raped" AI, didn't the monks do the same to Buffy & the Scoobies (not to mention Angel & the rest of the world)? All the juicy questions & debate that would follow, how wonderful.

[> [> Re: SPOILERS Soul Purpose + Shells - Questions Extreme Spoilers... Well Maybe ;) -- Dandy, 17:22:14 02/15/04 Sun

Angelus speaks to Dawn on the phone in an attempt to find out whether Buffy or Faith is in LA. The conversation sounds as if Dawn has spoken to Angel on the phone before.

[> [> [> Re: SPOILERS Soul Purpose + Shells - Questions Extreme Spoilers... Well Maybe ;) -- heywhynot, 17:05:50 02/17/04 Tue

Kinda missing the point. We have never seen on screen Dawn interacting with Angel. I think it is assumed that Angel & Dawn have interacted or at least have memories of interacting based on the comics, Dawn commenting about Buffy's love of Angel to Riley and the above phone conversation. Given Dawn's origins and what Angel agreed to regarding his son, it would be great IMHO to see Dawn on Angel, especially after the FG finds out about the mindwipe & then about Dawn.
Innocent victims and other ramblings (5.13 spoilers and long) -- Cheryl, 11:51:15 02/15/04 Sun

Why are most of the ìbadî guys this season humans gone bad - some good humans turned bad by no fault of their own like Nina, Dana, and now Sam? Even Lorne/Incredible Hulk Lorne ñ okay, not human, but still.

Although it wasnít really him they took Wesís dad, a Watchers Council leader, and turned his character into a bad guy. And Lindsey, when we last saw him in Season 2, seemed to be on the path of good ñ now heís evil again?

Angel and Spike had a conversation about how they were innocent victims, once upon a time. Is Gunn an innocent victim? Where do Fred and Wesley fit into all this now? Wes ìkilledî his own father, thinking it was the right thing to do at the time.

Whoís good and whoís evil now? Where do you draw the line? Why is ME showing us innocent victims like Nina, Dana, and Sam - are we supposed to compare them to Angel and company? What happened to the big bads of seasons past ñ the demons, those without souls? From the get-go this season (Conviction), the bad guy was an evil human. And then there was Pavayne.

What got me thinking so much about this was Sam Lawson (or as I think of him - a young Mark Harmon). He was a good guy, trying to take care of his men and willing to sacrifice his life for them and his country. When mortally wounded he allowed himself to be turned into a vampire so he could save the ship and crew, knowing he was the only one with the knowledge to do it. It had already been established that he knew about vampires (Iím assuming he figured out by then that Angel was a vampire, too).

Acting against his vampiric nature, he saved the sub and crew. Angel let Spike and Sam escape so they wouldnít be captured by the ìInitiativeî and experimented on. For 60 years Sam wandered the globe and slaughtered ñ and felt nothing.

Hereís the kicker for me ñ he kept tabs on Angel every decade or so but did nothing to contact him or exact his revenge or seek him for a mission or purpose. It wasnít until Angel took over W&H that Sam came back. Why? And I donít think he intended to kill Gunn, Fred, and Wes. After all, Angel did save his crew so why would Sam kill Angelís crew?

Angel almost sired Darla in S2 because he thought there was a chance she might be different because he had a soul now (forget the ëcanoní that he told her heíd never done it before and wasnít sure what would happen). I think Sam got something from Angel, maybe not a complete soul, but something. And I think he retained more of his humanity like Spike had.

In the end Angel told Spike he thought Sam was looking for a reason. Couldnít that reason have been to help Angel do good now at W&H? Why did Angel have to kill Sam? Harmonyís a vampire and is off the human blood and helping Angel. What bothers me about Angel is that he doesnít talk, he just assumes and acts. I think Sam could have been saved. Instead he was a victim twice ñ first when he sacrificed himself to save his crew and again when Angel killed him without offering an alternative. Both times it was at Angelís hands.

Angel couldnít or wouldnít save Sam. He wasnít allowed to help Dana in the end. It was too late to save Nina from becoming a werewolf, but he did offer to help her adjust. He didnít bother to find out why Lindsey did what he did. What are supposed to be the lessons learned this season? What is Angelís purpose or reason?

Angel and company are spending a lot of energy at W&H on victimized humans, not demons. Was this the Senior Partners plan all along? The puppet theme keeps popping up and this next week it looks like the metaphor becomes literal. I hope we get some answers soon, especially with only a few episodes left to go. But mainly, I want Angel to start accepting responsibility for all of the lives heís affected. ìWhat goes around comes aroundî seems pretty obvious this season. People from Angelís past are coming back ñ Spike, Lindsey, Sam. Angelís decision about Connor and W&H is having major consequences.

Sorry, for the ramblings - this ended up being longer than I planned. My main issue was that Angel never even attempted to help Sam. He didnít try to find and mentor him, he didnít question why Sam felt nothing when slaughtering, he didnít even consider that his soul had some effect on Samís siring, and he didnít wonder why Sam came back now after 60 years, all the while keeping tabs on him. He has a company full of demons who arenít allowed to kill humans and yet he doesnít consider giving Sam a purpose by helping them out there. What is Angel thinking?
WB's contact information? -- Antigone, 18:33:36 02/15/04 Sun

OK, this news about Angel just crushed me. No more Joss on TV after May???? My thoughts also immediately went to the amazing actors and crew who just learnt they will be out of work in a few months. Joss tells us it was unexpected. How very tacky on the part of the execs, for someone who was supposedly part of the "WB family" and right after the 100th episode festivities and PR events!! But I'll stop here because I might just lose it!

Now I participated in the campaign to save Firefly, wrote tons of postcards. I was told this is the only thing that may have a chance to work; not e-mails, rarely on-line petitions, and especially not boycotts, no matter how disappointed and betrayed we may feel. The thing was to sound more like responsible consumers and less like crazed fans. Such campaigns have been known to work in the past. We were instructed to be positive, thank the network and the sponsors, describe in great detail what we liked aboout the show, and also indicate our job and salary range. Let's not forget this is ALL about money! Most importantly, we were asked to be consistent in our stategies and requests, not go in hundreds of difference directions in ordeer not dilute the effort. Therefore we were asdked to wait for words from ME to know whether to stop, for example, writing to Fox, start writing to the Sci-Fi Channel, etc. OK Firefly was cancelled but let's not forget that it was FOX after all [g]; plus we did get a great DVD set and possibly a movie next year. So I think the campaign was successful and that in some level I made a difference.

So anyway, I'm sure fans are starting to get organized and will start a Save Angel campaign very soon. But time is certainly of the essence; if there is chance to make the WB change their mind, it is now or never. And no matter how slim the chance, I think we should all get involved, to feel at least like we tried everything (I personally had never written to a network before Firefly; I felt a little weird about it, but in the end I felt good that I did not just sit there and complain without trying something positive). I do not personally have the time and means to organize this type of event and I trust more involved fans in the on-line community to start something ASAP. In the meantime I wanted to start writing postcard to WB. Not to HBO or other networks yet, because I'm sure ME will need a few days to figure out what their exit strategy/plan B is going to be. I am simply going to thank WB for their support, praise the series in speicifc ways and ask them to please reconsider and at least to allow one more season, for closure, especially since Angel has been so much more visible and popular than before. ANYONE HAS AN ADDRESS AND NAME TO SEND THIS TO??

Thanks. I hope most of you will see this bad news as an opportunity to show our support and give back to Joss and ME, David, James, Alexis, J., Andy, Amy, Mercedes and everyone who makes the Jossverse so special for us every week. Fatalism may not be the best philosophy to look to right now! Let's be Nietzschian action-driven fans!

Replies:

[> Here's an address: -- Jane, 18:50:13 02/15/04 Sun

Mr. Jordan Levin,
The WB TV Network,
4000 Warner Blvd.,
Building 34R,
Burbank, Ca.,
91522, USA
This address is on the Save Angel Petition site link from the ATP home page. I think Mr. Levin is head of programming. I will be writing a nice polite letter to him tonight, urging the WB to reconsider. I agree that this is a better approach. Letting them know where you are in the demographics (reinforcing that we have major buying power!)
We should all write, really flood their offices with letters. It can't hurt, and maybe, just maybe, might help.

[> [> Re: Here's an address -- Antigone, 19:07:46 02/15/04 Sun

Thanks! I guess our posts crossed path! It seems that postcards, rather than letters is what we are supposed to sent.

When they had the Firefly campaign, many fans (including lazy me!) used Firefly postcards found on fan sites and used an on-line postcard sending service (VERY practical; no need for stamps; you write in your message, sender and recipient's addresses and pay a few dollars per card and they mail it for you; you can even order 10 or 20 cards to be sent at once with just a few clicks; sorry can't remember the link; will post it when I find it)

[> [> Building # is different from # on ATPoBtvs homepage -- Matlack73, 21:18:40 02/15/04 Sun

The building # is different on the address posted on the ATPoBtVs homepage. Do you think it is better to send to Bldg 34R or Bldg 505? I would think Bldg 34R is better if that is where Jordan Levin's correspondence goes.

[> Found something! -- Antigone, 18:53:38 02/15/04 Sun

OK, I was just lazy because a quick visit on some Angel/Buffy sites and I had all the information I needed! Here is what I found, keeping in mind that fans seem like they're still organizing themselves to coordinate efforts and we should get more info in a few days:

From morethanspike.com:

Ask Matt
http://www.tvguide.com/tv/roush/askmatt/emailmatt.asp

TV Gal
amytvgal@zap2it.com

Kristen
http://www.eonline.com/Gossip/Kristin/Ask/index.html

Don't forget to complain to the source:

Fax: 818-977-4033
Voicemail: 818-977-5000 - ask for voicemail feedback
E-mail: faces@thewb.com
Feedback: http://www.thewb.com/Shows/WithFeedback/0,...0,74510,00.html
Spike Feedback: http://www.thewb.com/Faces/CastBio/0,7930,...,130649,00.html
Message Boards: http://talk.thewb.com/viewforum.php?forum=4&408677

WB Entertainment
Jordan Levin, President
4000 Warner Blvd., Bldg. 34R
Burbank, CA 91522
(Postcards recommended)

For more organized campaign info:

RenewAngel.com:
http://www.renewangel.com

Sparklies Campaign:
http://www.sparklies.org/forums/viewforum.php?f=33


For a more detailed schedule of the people you can write to go to (probably the best source I've found so far): http://www.slayerverse.de/tanet/net_buffy_...ews.php&id=5404

[> [> Reposting last link -- Antigone, 19:00:03 02/15/04 Sun

Sorry, I made an error in posting last link:

http://www.slayerverse.de/tanet/net_buffy_us/?navi=news.php&id=5404

Another good link to the RenewAngel.com campaign, summarizing the current efforts:
http://www.renewangel.com/campaign.php

Also wanted to add the morethanspike link:
http://forums.morethanspike.com/index.php?act=ST&f=14&t=2181&s=

[> Tons of contact info. -- Dandy, 05:01:36 02/16/04 Mon

This sounds like a good idea and its making the rounds of the different boards and lists. Permission was given with it to pass it on --- so pass it on to other places and lets see if we can get a few thousands cards coming in to these people this week.


Unfortunately, emailing networks or posting in online petitions is a waste of time. As soon as they start getting emails, they set up spam filters to delete the mail and they don't ever see what comes in. Waiting around for somebody to organize something is wasting precious time--organized campaigns are going to be great but here's something you can do NOW.

If you want to actually do something that actually might--MIGHT--help to get another season for Angel...

DO THIS TOMORROW

1. Go and buy some postcards that show scenes from your city. Tourist postcards. Postcards that have the name of your town or city or area of the country on them. You don't need anything fancy, just something that will show immediately where you are located so they know this is coming from all over.

2. Write a short message on the postcard in your own words saying that you want Angel to be renewed and support the show. Keep it positive. Don't be insulting. Don't be abusive.

3. Address the postcard to one of the people on the list of addresses in this message. Levin may ignore the cards coming into the WB, but the media outlets will see there's a story in this and publicize it. The names on the list are in order of importance so start at the top and send as many postcards as you want to (or can afford to send).

4. Go and get at least six friends who probably aren't reading this on the internet but would be willing to send postcards, and get them to do the same thing.

5. DO IT TOMORROW! Speed of response is what counts along with the size of the response. Don't wait for instructions from some group. Just DO IT.

Here are the addresses to mail your cards to:

Matt Roush
TV Guide
Box 500
Radnor, PA 19088-0500

The Hollywood Reporter
Attn: Cynthia Littleton
5055 Wilshire Blvd.
Los Angeles, CA 90036-4396

Entertainment Tonight,
Paramount Pictures Domestic TV
Roddenberry Building
5555 Melrose Avenue
Hollywood, CA 90038

Extra
Warner Bros
4000 Warner Blvd.
Triangle Building, 4th Floor
Burbank, CA 91522

Entertainment Weekly
1675 Broadway New York
NY 10019

****************

TNT is the best possibility to pick up Angel since they've gotten good ratings with the reruns and do some original programming.

Turner Network Television
Attn: Robert DeBitetto (pres, original programming)
1888 Century Park East, 14th Fl.
Los Angeles, CA 90067

Turner Network Television
Attn: Julie Wietz (exec vp. original programming)
1888 Century Park East, 14th Fl.
Los Angeles, CA 90067

Turner Network Television
Attn: Attn: Mr. Jamie Kellner, Chairman and CEO
1050 Techwood Dr. NW
Atlanta, GA 30318

Turner Network Television
Attn: Garth Ancier, Executive Vice-President, Programming
1050 Techwood Dr. NW
Atlanta, GA 30318

******************

Rumor is that Levin doesn't accept cards or letters and they get returned, but a flood of mail might make news even if it doesn't get through

Warner Brothers Network
Attn: Jordan Levin, CEO
4000 Warner Blvd., Building 34R
Burbank, CA 91522
(818) 977-5000

*******************

And, if you want to send cards to Joss to express support and let him know the level of interest, here's where to send them:

Joss Whedon
C/o Mutant Enemy Productions
PO Box 900
Beverly Hills, CA 90213

And to send cards supporting the cast and crew:

Angel Productions
20th Century Fox
PO Box, 900
Beverly Hills
CA, 90213-0900

********************

Now, if you actually want to accomplish something, make some news, and maybe, just maybe, get a sixth season for Angel...

DO THIS TOMORROW AND DON'T PUT IT OFF!

Also, permission is given to repost this message to other lists, message boards and other places that are interested in supporting Joss and Angel. Spread the word and let's do something quickly. Speed counts.

Also, there is an on-line petition that already has 20,000 signatures including David boreanaz, James Marsters and Amy Acker (if they are real!) Here's the address:

http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?ai5d0162

There is also a site called renewangel.com where info is available. I think they might have postcards to download.

Hope this helps.

[> [> Big Thanks for this! :-) -- OnM, 06:01:25 02/16/04 Mon

I was just about to start Googling for for some snail-mailing addresses, and there was this handy list!

I would like to join in in emphasising that this is one case where snail-mailing your thoughts is far preferable to e-mail or other electronic communications, for the simple reason that it takes more time to do (and thus implies a higher-than-average level of intensity of feeling). The recipients know this, and even better than postcards (a very good idea, and fairly easy to do) is an actual letter, in an actual envelope.

Also, as Dandy comments in the list, emphasis on being positive is important. Negative comments, no matter how politely phrased, tend to be dismissed. Offer reasonable alternatives, don't make 'demands'.

And by all means, be sure to send something to Joss at Mutant Enemy, if no one else!

Joss openly admitted to being blown away by the level of fan support for Firefly, and stated that it was a crucial factor on his attempting to persevere in the plans for getting a movie made.

[> [> Thanks! Will do. -- Matlack73, 06:41:59 02/16/04 Mon

Thanks, Dandy. I have already sent an e-mail to Entertainment Weekly. I think you're right about snail mail showing greater intensity. This info is really appreciated.

[> A note on envelopes -- Dandy, 07:43:35 02/16/04 Mon

Since the Anthrax scare a lot of companies will not accept letters. Postcards are being recommended.

Also, the Caritas Forum is compiling info on advertisers for Angel. It is connected to the renewangel.com site.

[> [> YES! Include name, AGE, City, income bracket -- Briar Rose, 10:21:25 02/16/04 Mon

or type of job and indicate your sex if your name is sexually ambivalent; Pat, Chris, Drew or Taylor or names like that.

Additonally, make sure that the first line of your postcard or an additional line added to your address line on an enevelope states CLEARLY the show in question.

I agree with Dandy, that postcards are more easily read and hold less threat than letters. However, sometimes a well written letter is more effective. Especially since it has the ability to carry more personal info than you might want to send on a postcard, through the US mail.

However, there are also less than opaque enevelopes and there is also a pattern that mailrooms are taught to look for in terrorist type mailings. Full addresses and NAMES as well as correct addressing to the address-ee do help them sort out the possible risks. It's also good to use a distinctive envelope in any case. Use a colored enevelope or one with a design that catches attention.Please do not draw and scribble all over them either. I used to be very afraid to open an envelop from a fan of our station if it looked like some psycho had drawn his fantasies all over it in day-glo marker.*L

Do remember that the formula most stations use is one letter = 1000 opinions. That does NOT mean that everyone should not send a card or letter. It simply means that 40 individual mailings will equal 40,000 in the minds of a TV exec.

[> [> Would it be possible to get some information on out of state mailing? -- Finn Mac Cool, 10:41:25 02/16/04 Mon

Like, how many stamps I need or anything additional I need to put on the address information. That would be really helpful. Thanks.

[> [> [> US Postal Svc info -- Dandy, 18:01:35 02/16/04 Mon

This is the site for the U. S. Postal Service Calculator, to help you figure mailing rates. If you google Us postal service there is also a site for international mail and zipcodes, etc. Hope this is what you needed.

http://postcalc.usps.gov/

[> Re: WB's contact information? -- Kizzmet, 18:16:52 02/16/04 Mon

I tried the voice mail phone number all day, but kept getting a recording, asking me to call between 9am & 5pm. Never could get'em to let me leave a message!

[> [> They gave no option to leave message -- Matlack73, 19:07:16 02/16/04 Mon

Same experience. The WB did not give an option to leave a message. It is worth it to try again tomorrow.
Interview with JAR, mostly re cancellation -- KdS, 10:29:07 02/16/04 Mon

On his official site

Replies:

[> Thanks for this! -- Masq, 10:15:28 02/18/04 Wed

He doesn't sound pessimistic, which makes me feel better.
The Sweet Release of Death (Spoilers for 5.13 "Why We Fight") -- Dlgood, 11:43:54 02/16/04 Mon

Death, in its many forms, has been a constant presence in the Jossverse. Particularly as the two lead characters were a slayer and a Dead Thing. Repeatedly, I'm left questioning when it's right to kill, and when not. And what alternatives exist.

Particularly in regards to suicide, mercy killing, and, necessary. killings. Sam Lawson is the most recent test case on these three issues.

Is Lawson coming to LA to attempt a suicide-by-angel? If so, then it fits nicely into tradition alongside Faith in "Five by Five" and Connor in "Home". All three facing lives they can't seem to handle, and begging for release.

Should Angel have killed Lawson? On that submarine in 1943, knowing what he then knew about Vampires - Angel should probably have staked both Lawson and Spike. But as seen in the cases of Darla & Drusilla, Angel seems to have a very tough time staking his "family" - perhaps in part because they feel like family. But also in part for the same reason Willow was against Spike's staking in S4, and Buffy had trouble staking Harmony & Spike. Because to him, violent as they are, these are people and he can't easily kill them. So yes - Angel should have staked Spike and Lawson, just as Buffy should have staked Angelus numerous times in S2, Spike on numerous occasions in S3-5, and Harmony.

Like Chris Rock, I'm not saying I agree with what Angel did re:Lawson in 1943. But I think I can understand.

But should Angel have staked Lawson in 2004? Lawson had a bloody past, had recently initiated violence and possible torture upon Angel's friends, and instigated combat with Angel. Just as Faith did.

Speculation that Lawson had a partial-soul aside, we've already seen that Harmony doesn't have to be killed - at least right now - so the argument that it's necessary to kill Lawson doesn't seem to apply. At least not in the short term - if Lawson was looking for a mission, Angel could certainly give him that.

If so, then one might argue that this was an assisted suicide/mercy killing. Which, to be honest, I have trouble finding many examples of in the Jossverse. Had William killed, rather than turned, his tubercular mother. Had the Master killed, rather than sired, a syphillitic Darla. Had it not snowed on Christmas Day 1998. Had Willow and Xander not interrupted Spike's suicide attempt in S4. Had D'Hoffryn not killed Halfrek instead. Had Buffy not spared Angel or Spike when they offered their lives to her. Had Willow been killed following her rampage, as she expected and may have wanted. And maybe Buffy was pursuing suicide-by-vampire herself in S6...

The only instances where I can identify anything that seems tangentially like a successful suicide/mercy-killings are:

Buffy leaving Billy Fordham to get his wished-for-death by Spike in "Lie to Me"
James shoots himself in "I Only Have Eyes for You"
Buffy in "The Gift"
Darla in "Lullaby"
Connor in "Home"

And even in these cases, other factors are in play. Buffy immediately stakes the rising Ford, not to "put him out of his misery" but to prevent him from future killing. James is forced to replay his suicide until he is prevented from repeating it, and resolves his trauma. Buffy's suicide is couched in terms of Martyrdom, rather than simple release from her burdens, and even then - she is not allowed to keep it. Darla's death is a true act of maternal Martyrdom, choosing the life of her child over her own. And Connor's situation has, as of yet, not been clearly followed up - as to whether it was really the "right" thing, and whether it's a workable resolution for him.

We also have the murder-suicide attempts: Giles against Angelus in "Passion", VampJames against Angel in Heartthrob, and Holtz in "Benediction".

Personally, I don't think Angel was right to kill Lawson at the end of "Why We Fight" - granted Lawson had killed for 60 years. And if he was going to try to keep going in a future, he'd have to live with his past, and with not being able to kill and drink human blood again - just as Harmony has to live with that. And maybe it would have been hard for Lawson to do.

"Strong is fighting. It's hard, and it's painful, and it's every day. It's what we have to do. And we can do it together."

Strong is Fighting. And in the Jossverse, as in life - you have to live with that. With pain and disappointment, and with a life that wasn't what you'd hoped for, or what you wanted. You don't get the "sweet release of death" on your own terms.

And you don't get to give it to others, like Connor or Sam Lawson, because you don't get to have it yourself or because you want to spare them the difficulties of life. I'm not saying I don't understand what Angel did, or why. For the last fifteen years, I watched my own grandmother suffer from Alzheimer's disease, withering away until there was nothing recognizable of my bubbie left in the shell of her body.

I understand a merciful assisted suicide, and I understand wishing for the release of death - when the suffering is too great, and death unavoidable regardless. I can understand if Angel were looking to grant Lawson a "release" - but I don't agree.

Replies:

[> Re: The Sweet Release of Death (Spoilers for 5.13 "Why We Fight") -- Corwin of Amber, 22:02:23 02/16/04 Mon

Hmm. There are so many mitigating factors in the Angel/Lawson story. But what it sort of comes down to is, how much is Angel willing to risk to redeem others, and can the souless even be redeemed? In a way, the story is very much a replay of Faith, with one vital difference - Faith has a soul, and therefore has a chance at redemption. I think that Angel wasn't up to spending decades or centuries working for a lost cause, and therefore kept the promise he made to Lawson back in 1943 - that he would kill him the next time he saw him.

[> [> Harmony & Lawson (Spoilers for AtS 5.13) -- Dlgood, 10:05:59 02/17/04 Tue

But what it sort of comes down to is, how much is Angel willing to risk to redeem others, and can the souless even be redeemed?

But what about Harmony and all those other soulless Vampires that work at W&H? Angel hasn't made good on his threat to kill her, even though she hasn't been redeemed.

Why use the institutional weight of W&H in service of reforming or at least constraining Harmony, but not use it for Lawson?

[> [> [> Did Lawson really show a desire to not be evil? -- Finn Mac Cool, 14:26:38 02/17/04 Tue

He very clearly said that he planned to see blood tonight (indicating the tied up Fred, Wes, and Gunn). Also, Angel is able to control Harmony because she fears death. Lawson, however, didn't really care about anything. He was totally apathetic. With the threat of punishment meaning nothing to him, control would be impossible. Having vampire employees is risky enough when dealing with sheep like Harmony; Lawson stands too great a liklihood of not adhering to the no killing rule.

Oh, and I feel I must mention that Angel and company may only keep vampires as employees for the same reason they continue to help more or less evil clients: they need it to keep the business running.
"Save Angel" Postcard Campaign - Addresses -- Ladyhelix, 06:56:51 02/17/04 Tue

I just pulled this off the Bronze Beta - not sure it's really from James Marsters... but these are the heavy hitters, and it certainly can't hurt! Spread the word!

xandman. says:
(Tue Feb 17 13:11:51 2004 152.163.252.70) [Edit/Delete]

James Marsters says what we can do to save Angel !!!
2004 - 02 - 17th


* Quick Postcard Campaign to Save Angel

Unfortunately, emailing networks or posting in online petitions is a waste of time. As soon as they start getting emails, they set up spam filters to delete the mail and they donít ever see what comes in. Waiting around for somebody to organize something is wasting precious time--organized campaigns are going to be great but hereís something you can do NOW.

If you want to actually do something that actually might--MIGHT--help to get another season for Angel...

DO THIS TOMORROW

1. Go and buy some postcards that show scenes from your city. Tourist postcards. Postcards that have the name of your town or city or area of the country on them. You donít need anything fancy, just something that will show immediately where you are located so they know this is coming from all over.

2. Write a short message on the postcard in your own words saying that you want Angel to be renewed and support the show. Keep it positive. Donít be insulting. Donít be abusive.

3. Address the postcard to one of the people on the list of addresses in this message. Levin may ignore the cards coming into the WB, but the media outlets will see thereís a story in this and publicize it. The names on the list are in order of importance so start at the top and send as many postcards as you want to (or can afford to send).

4. Go and get at least six friends who probably arenít reading this on the internet but would be willing to send postcards, and get them to do the same thing.

5. DO IT TOMORROW! Speed of response is what counts along with the size of the response. Donít wait for instructions from some group. Just DO IT.

Here are the addresses to mail your cards to:

Matt Roush
TV Guide
Box 500
Radnor, PA 19088-0500

The Hollywood Reporter
Attn: Cynthia Littleton
5055 Wilshire Blvd.
Los Angeles, CA 90036-4396

Entertainment Tonight,
Paramount Pictures Domestic TV
Roddenberry Building
5555 Melrose Avenue
Hollywood, CA 90038

Extra
Warner Bros
4000 Warner Blvd.
Triangle Building, 4th Floor
Burbank, CA 91522

Entertainment Weekly
1675 Broadway New York
NY 10019

TNT is the best possibility to pick up Angel since theyíve gotten good ratings with the reruns and do some original programming.

Turner Network Television
Attn: Robert DeBitetto (pres, original programming)
1888 Century Park East, 14th Fl.
Los Angeles, CA 90067

Turner Network Television
Attn: Julie Wietz (exec vp. original programming)
1888 Century Park East, 14th Fl.
Los Angeles, CA 90067

Turner Network Television
Attn: Attn: Mr. Jamie Kellner, Chairman and CEO
1050 Techwood Dr. NW
Atlanta, GA 30318

Turner Network Television
Attn: Garth Ancier, Executive Vice-President, Programming
1050 Techwood Dr. NW
Atlanta, GA 30318

Rumor is that Levin doesnít accept cards or letters and they get returned, but a flood of mail might make news even if it doesnít get through

Warner Brothers Network
Attn: Jordan Levin, CEO
4000 Warner Blvd., Building 34R
Burbank, CA 91522
(818) 977-5000

*

And, if you want to send cards to Joss to express support and let him know the level of interest, hereís where to send them:

Joss Whedon
C/o Mutant Enemy Productions
PO Box 900
Beverly Hills, CA 90213

And to send cards supporting the cast and crew:

Angel Productions
20th Century Fox
PO Box, 900
Beverly Hills
CA, 90213-0900

Now, if you actually want to accomplish something, make some news, and maybe, just maybe, get a sixth season for Angel...

I already got a 3 postcards and sent them out. Come on guys, lets save this show!!!!!

Replies:

[> Thanks for this -- Masq, 07:09:16 02/17/04 Tue

I'm going to copy the bulk of this and create a page on my site with the info.

[> [> Hi Masq -- Dandy, 18:22:47 02/17/04 Tue

This is the same info I posted the other day. I got it from another site. I did not mean to leave the impression that I wrote it myself. Morgain, a poster at ASSB and it's sister board has posted what she beleives to be the original sender's info. Just thought you would like to know that, while it is also on a James Marsters site, I don't beleive it was written by THAT JM, but by a different JM. I would not like to see this somehow have an adverse effect on Mr. Marsters. Thanks, Dandy

Below is morgain's post:

this is the same message that
From: Jeffrey Malbisse
To: the_stakehouse@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2004 9:51 PM
Subject: Joss's StakeHouse: Something you can do TOMORROW to help save Angel

Not saying it isn't good advice... it just doesn't appear to be coming from directly JM

[> [> [> I left the JM part of it out -- Masq, 18:59:50 02/17/04 Tue

Mostly because I doubted it was really from JM either.

[> Suggestion to people sending postcards -- Rob (who just sent his!!), 07:33:21 02/17/04 Tue

Be very polite in the ones you send to The WB. Not that their renewing Angel is likely, but we basically have to treat this as if we're asking them a favor in renewing Angel. We can express our anger or dissatisfaction, but then temper that with how we appreciate them for airing the show for the past years and hope they will reconsider, etc. Because a whole bunch of angry letters won't entice them to do anything but ignore them.

Rob

[> Some possibly good "Angel" news... -- Rob, 07:53:30 02/17/04 Tue

This was posted on whedonesque.com:

All is not lost for ANGEL....YET. A poster at The WB Angel message board states that Mutant Enemy will talk to other networks about "extending the show" based on employee conjecture and old information (the poster has updated and admitted that he jumped the gun).

We're going to be in rumour territory for the next few weeks and I've never been on the WB boards but the signs are that this poster is a reliable source.

So, obviously at the moment we don't know how true this statement is, but it does imply that sending those postcards to the networks couldn't hurt at all and in fact could be extremely helpful. I'm glad to hear (and I hope it's true) that ME isn't just letting Angel die without a fight.

Rob

[> [> Re: Some possibly good "Angel" news... -- Ames, 09:18:16 02/17/04 Tue

I'm not sure that any of our efforts can help directly with the networks. They know that there are fans of AtS out there, but they (and the advertisers) rely more on Nielson ratings than on petitions to judge the size and demographics of the audience.

But I do think our efforts are helping motivate those involved with AtS and ME to keep up the fight, and they may be able to do something if they try. They are a lot more likely to make the extra effort for AtS rather than just looking for new jobs if they know there are 50,000 loyal fans petitioning and writing letters to keep them on the air.

[> [> [> Re: Some possibly good "Angel" news... -- Rob, 11:28:14 02/17/04 Tue

I'm not sure that any of our efforts can help directly with the networks. They know that there are fans of AtS out there, but they (and the advertisers) rely more on Nielson ratings than on petitions to judge the size and demographics of the audience.

I don't completely agree. I think if a network is made aware that there is a great number of people out there willing to watch a new potential show on their network, they would at least take notice. At the very least, it couldn't hurt our cause, and it just might help.

Rob

[> [> [> [> Re: Some possibly good "Angel" news... -- Jane, 17:07:02 02/17/04 Tue

I agree, Rob. If we make all our voices heard, someone just might listen. At the very least, we will know we did everything possible to help save Angel. I just sent off a bunch of postcards today. Hope everyone else does the same.

[> [> [> [> [> I sent out 13: 1 to Joss, 1 to the cast and crew, 2 to WB, and 1 to each other one on the list. -- Rob, 17:37:33 02/17/04 Tue


[> Letter-writing campaigns -- Gyrus, 12:11:17 02/17/04 Tue

I have heard of a few shows being saved from cancellation because of letter-writing campaigns by fans, but I can't think of any specific examples. Can anyone come up with any?

[> [> Due South and Dr Who -- Pip, 12:33:20 02/17/04 Tue

Can't think of any U.S. Shows, but the Canadian show Due South came back for another season after a successful fan campaign. The fan campaign had a strong UK component, which led to a co-funding deal for one season with the BBC (or they committed to buying the new season, can't quite remember which).

In the U.K., Doctor Who has enjoyed a strange existence in a (not very good) tv movie and several radio dramas since its cancellation some years ago. Again, that's largely due to the sheer bloody-mindedness of fans, who will not let the cancellation matter drop. A new tv series is presently in pre-production.

The moral from this is that while we might not get a new series of Angel, clear evidence of a large fan base can be a very handy thing to have.

[> [> [> Word of caution re: Doctor Who -- KdS, 04:17:17 02/20/04 Fri

In the U.K., Doctor Who has enjoyed a strange existence in a (not very good) tv movie and several radio dramas since its cancellation some years ago. Again, that's largely due to the sheer bloody-mindedness of fans, who will not let the cancellation matter drop. A new tv series is presently in pre-production.

Yes, the fandom has kept the show in the public eye to the point that a new series is being made. However, it is widely suspected that the more extreme reactions of certain elements of the fandom to the initial cancellation (abusive letters and public statements, supporting newspaper campaigns which were more about Murdochian BBC-bashing than Who) persuaded elements at the BBC that Who fans were loonies who were just too much hassle to deal with.

Basically just another warning to keep things polite and avoid writing anything that would cause a non-fan to doubt your mental stability ;-) ("My life will be as nothing if you cancel my show!!!!!")

[> [> Farscape. -- Rob, 13:02:39 02/17/04 Tue

It's coming back next year as a four hour miniseries, thanks to fan efforts. Depending on the ratings of the miniseries, a complete renewal is a possibility.

Rob

[> [> Cagney and Lacey -- Cheryl, 17:44:04 02/17/04 Tue

Also, wasn't Star Trek renewed an extra year because of a letter campaign?

And did Star Trek TNG come about partly because of the huge Trek fan base showing up at all of the conventions? Maybe we need to be hitting all of the conventions.

[> [> La Femme Nikita -- Sofdog, 07:34:29 02/18/04 Wed

Fan protest prompted the USA network to negotiate all principals for at least one episode of an 8-shot final season. They ran promos dedicating it to the fans.
Give me back a purpose, Chief (spoilers Why We Fight) -- lunasea and Hubby, 06:58:04 02/17/04 Tue

I think that he does feel like it's sort of a meaningless void, and what matters is the struggle to find the good. And the relationships you build with people while you struggle. And in some ways you'll never find it, but the quest and the questors, and the people that you find, who are not necessarily your family, are the only thing that lends the journey meaning. I think that is his major theme.

As I hear that my beloved Angel will be no more, I turn to my favorite interview for comfort. The Buffyverse will continue, even if Angel doesnít. It will still exist in other mediums and in the work of every ME writer that Joss has influenced, including Marti Noxon, who said the above quote.

It is this meaningless void that fuels Angelís despair which is often as deep and dark as the ocean. It is that struggle to find or rather be the good that causes him to go on no matter what. It is his ultimate purpose, his mission that makes him the dreaded C-word. In a true meaningless void, nothing matters. There is no reason to fight.

Things do matter though. There may be no grand plan (though the show even leaves that possibility open, it just wonít let Angel rely on it for motivation), but that doesnít mean there isnít meaning. That is provided you have a soul. If the meaning of life is to find the good, how can a vampire, whose guiding star orients him to evil, find that? How can a vampire have a real purpose?

In ìThat Gang of Mine,î Angel understands what Gio is doing. It feels familiar to him. ìI know the pattern. The seeming randomness of it, the chaos. There is a larger purpose behind every move...To have fun.î Vampires in a nutshell. The means to that fun differs from vampire to vampire, but they are out for what they enjoy. That is their ìmission.î This mission is not enough for Lawson. He wants Angel to give him a new one.

Is a partial soul enough to allow Lawson to find the good? Once resouled, Angel was even unable to commit the murder and mayhem that vampires get off on. Even though Lawson was unable to derive pleasure from these activities, he was still able to do them. They werenít reprehensible to him. Just his inability to enjoy them was.

When Lawson is vamped, he realizes that he has been disconnected from humanity. The crew, the people that mattered, no longer do. He gave his life to save that crew. Now they looked smaller to him. He realizes they are no longer the mission. He has no mission. He canít be what he was and he isnít what he is supposed to be.

He did have a mission, one that he served by his death. In dying he saved his crew and got the u-boat into Allied hands. He found and was the good. The relationships he had were very important to him. He is very upset about what happened to his captain and was ready to risk his life when he found out that one of his crew was still alive and in danger.

In ìParting Gifts, ì Angel wants to bring back Doyle. The Oracles ask him why. ìTo nullify his noble death?î By allowing Lawson to leave and thus harm humans, Angel went against Lawsonís mission. Lawson joined the War effort because evil was spreading and he wanted to stop that evil. Instead he became that evil. Allowing Lawson to be free to commit evil, Angel did nullify his noble death.

Angel realizes this. ìGive me a mission, Chief.î He had a mission, one that Angel now understands. He didnít in 1943. He was just trying to find a way to deal with the soul that almost killed him. He wasnít actually using it for anything. He read about the War, but wasnít involved in it, until he was forced into it by his nature. When he comes back, he hasnít learned anything. He goes underground to hide from the Government, the government that is similar to the Nazis in some respects.

Apple pie. Symbolizing all things good about America. Our work ethic illustrated by the labor it takes to make a good pie. Our strong family ties illustrated by the mother that makes it and the family that sits down to eat it. Our fruitfulness illustrated by the fruit that makes it up. The balance of textures and flavors that show our diversity. Our warmth and nutritional value that has caused democracy and liberty to flourish. When Angel becomes human, he takes a bite out of an apple and remarks that he ìforgot how good it all tastes when youíre alive!î The apple isnít just the fruit that Eve tempted Adam with thus causing the downfall of Man, but it is all the above and more. This is something that Angel, as a vampire, feels disconnected from.

His story is learning that this disconnection that Whistler warns him about (The more you live in this world, the more you see how apart from it you really are) does not excuse him from his mission. It is the only thing that gives life meaning and without it, what is there besides despair? Angel couldnít give Lawson a new mission. Instead he gave him back the one he used to have. That mission requires Lawsonís death again. Angel honors Lawson the their joint mission by dusting him.

Replies:

[> Another great post (but a bad week for posting) -- Matlack73, 17:02:23 02/18/04 Wed

Joss Speaks on Angel Cancellation -- Vegeta, 07:30:00 02/17/04 Tue

Hi all,

This is a posting from The Bronze Posting board this weekend from Joss to fans:

Some of you heard the hilarious news. I thought this would be a good time to weigh in. To answer some obvious questions:
No, we had no idea this was coming.
Yes, we will finish out the season.
No, I don't think th WB is doing the right thing.
Yes, I am grateful they did it early enough for my people to find other jobs.
Yes, my heart is breaking.

When Buffy ended, I was tapped out and ready to send it off. When Firefly got the axe, I went into a state of denial so huge it may very well cause a movie. But Angel... we really were starting to feel like we were on top, hitting our stride -- and then we rode right into the Pit of Snakes 'n' Lava. I'm so into these characters, these actors, the situations we're building... you wanna know how I feel? Watch the first act of "The Body".

As far as TV movies or whatever, I'm not thinking that far ahead. Actually, I hope my actors and writers are all too busy. We always planned this season finale to be a great capper to the season and the show in general (and a great platform for a new season, of course). We'll proceed ahead as planned.

I've never made mainstream TV very well. I like suprises, and TV isn't about suprises, unless the suprise is who gets voted off something. I've been lucky to sneak this strange, strange show over the airways for as long as I have. I don't FEEL lucky, but I know that I am.

Thanks all for your support, your community, and your perfectly sane devotion. It's meant a lot. I regret nothing (except for the string of grisly murders in the 80's -- what was THAT all about?).

Remeber the words of the poet:
"Two roads divurged in a woods, and I took the road less travelled by... and they CANCELLED MY FRIKKIN' SHOW. I totally shoulda took that road with all those people on it. Damn."

See you soon.


-j

------------------------------------------------------------

This was sent to me via email, therefore I cannot tell you for sure if it's truely joss from the Bronze posting board. If one of y'all out there ever lurks their please confirm.

I personally hope our write in campaign is successful, but Joss sounds fairly resigned. My only hopes are:

1. "Tru Calling" gets cancelled and Joss and Eliza decide that "Faith the Vampire Slayer" would be a fun idea. If they can get any broadcast stations to run it.

-- or--

2. Joss develops "the Watcher's" or "The Watcher's Council" so we can continue to bask in the glory that is the Buffyverse.

If neither of these happen I think I may cancel my cable and get a life of some sort. Basically, because there really is very little else on TV that is remotely worth wasting time on.

Vegeta.

Replies:

[> Yep, that's Joss. It's posted on the Bronze Beta board. -- Rob, 07:43:59 02/17/04 Tue

The Master Race and U-boats (spoilers Why We Fight) -- Lunasea, 11:34:08 02/17/04 Tue

The first real threat that Angel faced this season from within Wolfram and Hart came from Agent Hauser (German houses). Hitler would be proud of the ideological purity represented by this paragon of the Master Race. Hitler was attracted to the German Workers Party or DAP (Deutsche Arbeiterpartei) because of its strong German Nationalism and anti-semitism. Even though he was opposed to many socialist ideas, especially those that espoused racial and sexual equality, he recognized their popularity post-WWI. He warped socialist philosophy with the addition of the word ìNational,î saying that equal rights are for those of German blood only. It was Hitler that suggested the DAP become the NSDAP or National Socialist German Workers Party (Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei) what we know as the Nazis. Their Twenty-Five Points of 1920 spell out what they believe.

Even though the Naziís have socialist in their name, their main targets were the socialists and communists. Hitler saw socialism as part of a Jewish conspiracy, who he blamed for losing WWI. His private army, the Sturm Abteilung (SA) or Storm Troopers, was made up of former members of the Freikorps (right-wing private armies that flourished post WWI). Fascism is considered right, not left. It is different from communism in some very important ways. The two movements are often confused. Hitler and Stalin are said in the same breath because of their disregard for liberty and human rights.

The word fascism comes not from Hitler, but Benito Mussolini. The word comes from fasces, the symbol of bound sticks used as a totem of power in ancient Rome. In 1932 he wrote an entry for the Italian Encyclopedia on the definition of fascism. He stressed the important distinctions between socialismís ìeconomic conception of historyî and ìclass-warî as the ìpreponderant force in the transformation of societyî with fascismís belief in ìholiness and heroismî and the importance of imperialism as a sign of ìvitality.î

Fascism uses patriotism to motivate people. Communism cannot, since its ultimate goal is the dissolution of the state. Instead it motivates people by appealing not to patriotism, but to economics. Workers of the world unite. That isnít to say that Russia or China cannot lead this revolution. The left/communism and right/fascism arenít a continuum so much as a circle that in the extremes tends to meet. It takes an authoritarian state to get everyone to unite and such things tend not to dissolve afterwards. The tactics used by Hitler and Stalin were very similar, even if their speeches were drastically different.

On the u-boat in ìWhy We Fight,î we have the remnants of the governments that both Hitlerís fascism and Leninís communism arose to overthrow. First up is Rasputinís Lover. He is the epitome of Russian royal decadence, selfishness and ego. He has no interest in anyone, not even the other vampires. He just demands respect. (reminded me of Cartman from South Park. We must ìrespect his authority.î) The lack of respect shown by Angel, who is the Scourge of Europe, not just some frozen wasteland like Siberia, shows the worldís view of Russia. There is a pissing contest between Angel and Rasputinís Lover, much like there will be after WWII and that contest is won by Angel. The decadence of the monarchy was quickly dispatched.

That leaves The Prince of Lies. An obvious homage to the German movie Nosferatu, eine Symphonie des Grauens which came out in 1922, the same time that Hitler was busy with the Nazi Party. Count Orlak was part of the German aristocracy from Wisborg (now Bremen) Germany. He is a vampire from another time, who refers to the submarine as a ìbathosphereî and calls it ìperplexing.î He realizes Angel is the alpha vampire and does nothing to challenge his authority. This makes him compatible with the crew for a time being, just as the German aristocracy found their roles in the German army.

It isnít until he discovers what the Naziís want to do to him that he gets upset. Angel will have to stake him so that the human Nazi can live. In 1943 Angel has no mission. He does what he has to and as little as possible. It was this attitude in the form of Chamberlainís appeasement that allows Hitler to steamroll over much of Europe unopposed. It is one of the most important lessons to learn from WWII. From WWI we learn the results of the vengeance demonstrated with the Treaty of Versailles. We learn the importance of leaving the enemy with dignity and an economy that will allow for recovery, psychologically and physically.

The vaccum created by the abdication of the Kaiser after WWI is filled by an allegiance to Hitler that will lead to WWII. Allegiance to the Czar is transfered to an allegiance with your fellow workers. Both replace one allegiance with another and use that to manipulate people. The Prince of Lies is the most honest creature on the boat. He does not hide behind a human visage, like Spike and Angel can. He is not trying to create a secret Uber-army to be commanded by the Master Race. Spike may believe that the Germans are collecting the biggest and baddest to make generals, but generals arenít chipped. Vampires are not the Master Race. The Germans are. Nosferatu is dusted to save the Nazi. That Nazi isnít killed until he threatens American life and the mission.

The older orders represented by the vampires arenít the only casualty. So is American idealism, represented by Lawson. It was Nazi atrocities that motivated him to fight and be willing to die. He can take orders from his government because he believes we wouldnít do that. ìYou donít win a war by doing what ever it takes. You do it by doing whatís right.î What is right isnít always so black and white. When we have to decide whether to submit to the heavy casualties that attacking mainland Japan will bring to both sides or detonate an experimental weapon of mass destruction against civilians, America grows up in a way that seeing evil canít do. Only being evil can. From that moment on, our country has to take our responsibility as a superpower seriously. We donít always. We donít always remember the lessons of WWI or WWII. We lose our way and have to find it again. We lose the mission.

We get off off the coast of Maine and go underground, hoping that the world wonít find us. We can hide from it, but there will always be someone ready to ask ìAre you now or have you ever beenî unless we stand up and say it doesnít matter. In America we talk a lot about freedom, but that freedom is dependent on the economic means to act on them. We cannot ignore the economic view of history. Nor can we ignore the importance of patriotism. We donít need a workerís revolution. We have one, every four years. Socialism is strongest in a democracy because in a democracy the workers have the most power. There is true power in numbers in a democracy, at the ballot box.

The u-boat was an interesting metaphor. They worked in groups that come to be known as ìwolfpacks.î A list of these along with other information about the German Unterseeboots can be found at uboat.net. Their purpose was to cripple British shipping and bring England to her knees economically. McCarthy and friends use a similar tactic when dealing with suspected socialists/communists. Angel uses this tactic when dealing with Mangus Hainsely in ìJust Rewards.î It is still used. How many are contemplating boycotts in retaliation to Angel being canceled?

The u-boat was developed because it is a stealthy/underhanded way to attack. It works because it isnít easily detectable. Because of how it operates, namely underwater, out of 1,154 U-boats made in WWII, 726 were sunk. 26,947 German lives were lost. Only 19.6% of sailors survived sinking, with most u-boats experiencing complete loss of crew. This is similar to vampires who use the stealth of their human visage to lure prey. They seem to have a high fatality rate and donít have a high chance of survival if they face the Scoobies or Fang Gang. Willow dusted one with a pencil. Dawn has even gotten her share.

The u-boats cruised the Atlantic looking for prey, namely Allied ships. It factors into a greater overall design created by Hitler and friends that will put the Master Race in control. In ìWhy We Fight,î the importance of the u-boat to the war is combined with their idea to create an army of chipped vampires to fight for them. Hitler saw the vampires having a role in his mission. The vampires didnít agree with him.

The vampires donít care about fascism or communism or democracy. Spike isnít a Nazi. He just likes the jacket. These three things are very much a part of human existence. When the older order gives way and Angel takes off off the coast of Maine, it is up to the remaining humans to get the u-boat to shore. Lawson is no longer part of that. It will take the humans to bring the u-boat up from the depths of the Atlantic and do something with it, something that will follow the mission, the mission to find the good that Joss has been writing about. US submarines that will be built with the technology that we get from the U-boat didnít go after German civilian vessels.

You're not a part of that yet. - I hope you will be. Angel is becoming more and more a part of that and his experience with evil gives him an interesting perspective. He has to maintain his purity in the belly of the beast, his purity of mission that knows that compromise and sacrifices will be necessary, but donít mean the mission is gone.

Replies:

[> Re: The Master Race and U-boats (spoilers Why We Fight) -- Lunasea's Hubby, 11:39:52 02/17/04 Tue

Since Big Brother won't let him post from work, my darling Hubby emailed me his response. It is much shorter than what I wrote, so here it is:

So basically what you're saying is that on the sub you have representations of the old order (aristorcracy) and the new (republics, totalitarian states) with Angel (and to some degree Spike) lost somewhere in the middle with no real purpose in the world. The old order must pass to make way for what will come after the war. Yearnings for past glory orÝthe examples of past decadence can not be used by the new order to manipulate the present to achieve their ends. It would only perpetuate the cycle of the old order.ÝHence the Nazi and the Inititive's plans for VampireÝArmies can not be allowed to happen. Placing the action on board a submarine highlights the underhandedness and questionable ethics of the plan, much in the same way a submarine is often considered and underhanded tactic of questionable eithics in war as well. Angel's dusting of the dynamic duo of stogyness prevents this plan from happening, but also clears the old out of the way for the new. (The Cold War). Angel understands what the mission is regarding the importance of the sub, but as for the cargo of vampires he seems to realize that it must not be allowed to go forward (why Spike and Lawson are kicked off the boat). The casualty in all of this is idealism. Lawson represents the pure fight of good against evil. His participation in the mission introduces him to the grey area of what the supposed black and white world of WWII will evolve into during the Cold War. A world of doing what is necessary to complete the mission regardless of the questionableness of the tactics. This is the situation Angel now finds himself in. Having resources of questionable integrity (Wolfram and Hart) to fight against evil when evil is what created those resources. He feels trapped, much like Lawson because his actions bring no satisfaction.

[> [> Couple of follow-ups -- KdS, 04:29:53 02/20/04 Fri

representations of the old order (aristocracy) and the new (republics, totalitarian states)

Which slightly parallels Angel and Spike themselves, as an 18th-century bourgeois who turned himself into the ultimate libertine aristocrat and a 19th century bourgeois who turned himself into the ultimate proletarian streetfighter.

Interesting double meaning with the submarine - as Lunasea said in her first post, U-boats were widely regarded as an inherently morally ambiguous weapon in a way that the use of normal battleships wasn't, but also meant particular danger and hardship for their crews - can a person be heroic in their courage while doing something morally questionable? Important question this season.

[> Great posts -- Matlack73, 16:58:15 02/18/04 Wed

Lunasea & Hubby, you have made some very interesting connections. Did you do a lot of research after the episode or did you already know much about Germany and WWII?

[> [> Little of both -- Lunasea, 14:27:07 02/19/04 Thu

WWII is sort of Hubby's area and I get it through diffusion. As a socialitst, it is my duty to understand the ideology involved, so that when Conservatives try to paint me as either Nazi or Commie, I can defend my position.
A Sociopath? -- Claudia, 15:50:21 02/17/04 Tue

Would you describe Wesley as a sociopath? After reading the following - http://home.earthlink.net/~mimesere/wesleyoutline.htm - and watching him pump nine bullets into his father, before discovering that the latter was a cyborg in "Lineage", I'm beginning to think so.

Replies:

[> Re: A Sociopath? -- Missy, 16:14:23 02/17/04 Tue

I don't think he's a sociopath due to that. From everything that has been leaked throughout the show, Wesley obviously didn't grow up with a loving home life. I mean, there are times I wish I could pump 9 into my father, but alas, I've never had the opportunity (just kidding).

There is always the possibility that Wesley was aware of the fact that it was a cyborg thingy and NOT his father. Sometimes we just don't give Wes enough credit for his smarts.

Not only that but after he killed the thing that looked like his father, he actually called him! Just to make sure he was ok. Now, that to me, doesn't spell sociopath. I honestly think Wes had it figured out. There were times in the show where he just had that 'look' like he knew something wasn't quite right.

That's just my opinion.

[> [> Don't Fool Yourself -- Claudia, 10:13:14 02/18/04 Wed

"There is always the possibility that Wesley was aware of the fact that it was a cyborg thingy and NOT his father. Sometimes we just don't give Wes enough credit for his smarts."

I think you might be fooling yourself. Wes had no idea that his father was a cyborg. Not until AFTER he had shot "Roger" nine times.

Fred tried to excuse his actions on the ground that "Roger" was a cyborg. But Wes knew he had no excuse.

[> Nope -- Pip, 16:38:31 02/17/04 Tue

One act does not a sociopath make. A quick trawl through the web gives the clinical symptoms as:

not learning from experience
no sense of responsibility
inability to form meaningful relationships
inability to control impulses
lack of moral sense
chronically antisocial behavior
no change in behavior after punishment
emotional immaturity
lack of guilt
self-centeredness

Wesley hasn't really displayed any of the above except for his early emotional immaturity. For example, he's suffering from guilt after he 'killed' his father. His talk to Angel in 'Cautionary tale' about the importance of hope shows a concern for someone other than himself. His change from the emotional immaturity of the earlier Wesley shows he can learn from experience. He has meaningful relationships with the Fang Gang and, far from lacking responsibility, he kidnaps Connor because he's trying to save Connor's life (at some cost to himself - again, note the lack of self-centredness).

So - nope, not a sociopath.

Abused children who kill their abuser often do it in exactly the same circumstances as Wesley. They can live with the abuse to themselves, but snap when their abuser turns on someone they love. Doesn't mean he's a sociopath.

Heck, there were several moments in Lineage when I'd have cheerfully pumped nine bullets into Roger. [grin]

[> [> We'll Wait and See -- Claudia, 10:15:15 02/18/04 Wed

Something tells me that by the time the series ends, you'll be changing your mind.

I already consider his feelings for Fred to be VERY unhealthy and unrealistic.

[> [> [> However 'dark' Wesley goes, he still isn't a sociopath -- Pip, 12:21:21 02/18/04 Wed

Even if Wesley goes 'dark' by series end, that doesn't make him a sociopath. He just plain doesn't have the symptoms, hasn't showed them over the previous four seasons. Alexis Denisov is a good actor - if he'd been told Wesley was a sociopath, we'd have been able to check more than one box on that list of symptoms. 'Sociopath' is a diagnosis only applied when someone has showed sociopathic behaviour over their entire life.

I could see Wesley starting to crack under the intolerable pressure of finding he has, yet again, been abused by someone he was supposed to trust. Angel has removed life-changing memories without Wesley's consent. We know that Wesley's father also psychologically abused him. AD *has* been playing Wesley as someone struggling to overcome childhood abuse, btw. He's played Wesley that way throughout Angel

So some kind of Wesley-explosion is entirely credible.
But that's still not a sociopath. That's a mental breakdown, or maybe a psychotic episode, partly caused by childhood trauma. It is something a character could be reasonably expected to recover from (with help). It's completely different from sociopath, which is a lifetime diagnosis that would have made AD play Wesley in a very different manner.

[> [> [> Re: Name calling vs. psychological diagnosis -- punkinpuss, 11:19:35 02/19/04 Thu

As Pip points out, there are specific behaviors associated with the diagnosis of a sociopath, none of which have been established for Wes.

However, you don't seem very discerning about that sort of thing. There IS a difference between name-calling and a psychological diagnosis/analysis. Wes may go very dark but that's hardly the same thing as being a sociopath.

Also, all your protests do not an argument make. If you want to "prove" that Wes is a sociopath, just go through the list of symptomatic behaviors and compile a list of his actions and dialogue that back up your pov.

BTW, when that Psychotic!Wes website first popped up, a poster at BBB, who has an advanced degree in Psychology, trashed it thoroughly. It's nonsense. It's bashing so extreme you have to wonder about the pathology of its creator.

[> You don't shoot someone with one bullet -- Lunasea, 17:10:14 02/17/04 Tue

That sort of lunacy only exists in Hollywood. When you are in a life threatening situation, you empty the clip into them. You don't have time to see if one bullet did the trick. You don't have time to wound the person. It is kill or either be killed or someone else will die. Once Wesley made the choice that he wouldn't spare his father's life it was proper of him to treat his father like any other assailant. It is harsh to watch, but the show has been going for graphic realism this season.

I wouldn't say someone that "You do what you have to do to protect the people around you. To do what you know is right, regardless of the cost" is a sociopath. Such a contention demonstrates a complete misunderstanding of the term.

[> [> Sorry, But . . . -- Claudia, 10:22:13 02/18/04 Wed

"That sort of lunacy only exists in Hollywood. When you are in a life threatening situation, you empty the clip into them. You don't have time to see if one bullet did the trick. You don't have time to wound the person. It is kill or either be killed or someone else will die. Once Wesley made the choice that he wouldn't spare his father's life it was proper of him to treat his father like any other assailant. It is harsh to watch, but the show has been going for graphic realism this season."

You know, you sound like Fred in "Lineage". She excused Wes' behavior on the grounds that his father turned out to be a cyborg. You're excusing his actions on the grounds that it is okay to empty a clip into someone all in the name of protecting a "love one".

Sorry, but I don't buy it. I'm beginning to suspect that Wes is a very disturbed person. And I think that "Billy" was the first sign of a personality that will eventually emerge. "Lineage" was another sign.

[> [> [> Re: Sorry, But . . . -- Corwin of Amber, 10:46:59 02/18/04 Wed

You're excusing his actions on the grounds that it is okay to empty a clip into someone all in the name of protecting a "love one".

So he should have let Fred die, is what you're saying? Or are you saying that he is a "sociopath" because he used too many bullets? If he had used 1 bullet, would he not be a "sociopath" by your definition?

What was "sociopathic" about his behavior?

[> [> [> [> Re: Sorry, But . . . -- Claudia, 11:16:21 02/18/04 Wed

"So he should have let Fred die, is what you're saying? Or are you saying that he is a "sociopath" because he used too many bullets? If he had used 1 bullet, would he not be a "sociopath" by your definition?

What was "sociopathic" about his behavior?"

He shot "Roger" NINE TIMES! Nine! Didn't you find that excessive? I certainly did. Everybody was commenting upon that fact. Don't you remember?

Is this a case of people unwilling to face Wes' darker nature?

You mean to say you don't find that disturbing?

[> [> [> [> [> Nigh impossible -- Kansas, 11:43:51 02/18/04 Wed

Claudia, first of all, the number of shots fired may have been more for dramatic effect than anything else. There may have been no intended message about Wesley's character there. And even so...

Violent behavior and antisocial behavior aren't necessarily the same thing. Wesley has displayed violent and ruthless behavior, but generally in the pursuit of some higher goal. For instance, his cruel treatment of Justine he felt was a necessary part of his effort to rescue Angel in Season 4.

The big exception was "Billy", but of course in that one he was not in full command of his faculties. And afterward he displayed pretty deep remorse (locking himself in his room and weeping qualifies, I think).

Wes has compassion. He acts responsibly, or tries to. He shows remorse if he's done something wrong. He functions effectively as part of the team. He tries to help others... these are not the traits of a sociopath. So even if we do see a return of "dark Wesley" this season (which is by no means a certainty) he could not, considering his past history, be considered a sociopath. Wes has "issues" of course. But he definitely has a conscience too.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Okay . . . -- Claudia, 14:03:40 02/18/04 Wed

Okay. If that is what you want to believe, I will not argue any further. But please remember this conversation in May.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Not all bad people are sociopaths . . . -- Finn Mac Cool, 15:16:33 02/18/04 Wed

. . . and not all sociopaths are bad people.

One definition of sociopathy I've heard is that it is the deadening of emotion. The sociopath is unable to feel any emotion strongly, or even at all. As such, they can become what are called "adrenaline junkies", trying to find something to replace the chronic boredom which comes from emotional hollowness. However, some of them also become the more well known, murderous sociopath. This occurs many times because a sociopath is incapable of feeling guilt and sometimes even fear. As such, they are able to hurt and kill people without feeling emotionally troubled. I think you can't deny that Wesley does have emotions. He tends to keep it hidden, but on several occasions he's shown an adverse emotional reaction towards some of the questionable actions he'd taken. Also, note that Wesley only decided to shoot his father when he threatened Fred. For a true sociopath, that wouldn't make a difference; he'd be incapable of caring whether Fred lived or died.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Not all bad people are sociopaths . . . -- Claudia, 16:11:36 02/18/04 Wed

"Also, note that Wesley only decided to shoot his father when he threatened Fred ..."

Check the November 2003 archives for comments on the episode, "Lineage".

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Not all bad people are sociopaths . . . -- Pip, 16:54:47 02/18/04 Wed

Uh, Claudia

It's helpful to hint which comments about Lineage you mean. Or possibly provide a link. Or maybe copy and paste a short quote.

Because the half hour I've just spent in the pages and pages of November 2003 archives, trying to guess which of the many posts about Lineage you think are the posts that support your argument really did not make me a happy bunny...

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I'm not saying that Wesley didn't WANT to shoot his father . . . -- Finn Mac Cool, 21:03:39 02/18/04 Wed

But, until the cyborg threatened Fred, Wesley was still holding back. What I'm saying is that a sociopath, given the opportunity to kill someone they dislike and still get away with it, will take the opportunity; they won't wait until special circumstances, like someone being threatened, come up. Remember, RoboRoger was stealing Angel's free will at the moment; I doubt the gang would have judged him harshly if he'd shot RoboRoger sooner rather than later. Therefore, I think Wesley isn't a sociopath, since there was obviously something holding him back from shooting what he thought was his father, as well as how negatively he reacted to it.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Sorry, But . . . -- Corwin of Amber, 19:18:17 02/18/04 Wed

I don't find shooting someone nine times any more disturbing than shooting them once. The number of bullets used is irrelevent, it's the intent that counts. And in this case, the intent was to save Fred from being killed. In order to do that, he had to kill someone else. Unless you think he should have shot the gun out of his hand, or something equally silly.

What was "sociopathic" about that?

[> [> [> [> [> [> Wrong Term, Perhaps -- Claudia, 11:09:36 02/19/04 Thu

I think you're right. I think that sociopath was the wrong term to describe Wesley.

I found this little passage on the Web. Is this how you would describe him?

"ìXXXX according to Freudian theory is an irrational belief that the person they choose for a partner will give them perfect love and make up for all the hurts and slights of their life. People with XXXX thinking and behavior strive to defend their fragile self esteem through fantasy and have a huge blind spot in their way of thinking. Fantasy and unrealistic expectations take the place of life. People with XXXXX tendencies have other defenses and errors in thinking such as denial, repression of feelings, black and white thinking and externalization of blame. They are often rigid and have a strong need to be right. They feel an increase in self-esteem when they get what they want and feel no remorse at using others. They are supersensitive to criticism and either attack the other person or they leave the scene. They can pout and give the silent treatment or hold grudges. This combination of these defenses, which distort reality often, set them up for failure in partnerships.î

ìPeople with severe XXXXX traits long for ideal love that will take care of their fragile sense of self and give them unconditional love. The yearning for getting unconditional love is an unresolved need left over from childhood. Most adults realize unconditional love would be nice. It rarely happens as people we love usually hold us accountable for our actions in some way. People with XXXX traits distort their self-image (again in fantasy to believe that they are superior to others. They think too well of themselves as a defense to cover up their sense of shame deep within. Grandiosity is a distortion, which prevents them from blaming themselves and becoming depressed or disintegrated.î

ìAs they believe that they are right and others are wrong, they rarely admit to faults in them self. They are not interested in reading self help books and pooh-pooh feelings. They do not want to come to therapy and often have the myth of ìI can do it all by myselfî while it is apparent to others that they cannot.

Fantasy is an attempt to process information, emotions and unresolved pain to make up for what they did not have in childhood. They place unrealistic demands on others to make them feel better. J. S. Bernstein defined this defense as a personís ìLearning to feel no way but good and to demand success when he did not feel good.î They cannot tolerate negative emotional distress and turn it on others (project) by saying they are bad. They insist on having things their own way, which is an unreal attitude that sets others off against them. When they donít get what they want, they feel devalued. Since they cannot tolerate the feelings of fear, hurt, anxiety, helplessness and despair, they defend against them. They deny and rationalize their own contribution to the problems to preserve their own internal fantasy of being all good and right. They also suffer from the Repressor and Projection defenses described above. XXXXX people always are Repressors, but not all Repressors are XXXX.î

ìXXXXX have a lack of insight about understanding and processing of feelings. Instead, they deny their feelings and run from them. They avoid taking risks to love and never learn to develop true intimacy. They would rather threaten their relationship than face humiliation, embarrassment or injury to their self-esteem. They are slow to learn the all important skills of commitment such as sympathy, understanding the intentions and motives of their partner, compassion and empathy. They may even choose someone to love who is even more XXXXX and selfish than they are thus mirroring their own problems.î"


Actually, this might describe most of the characters on the show.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Wrong Term, Perhaps -- Corwin of Amber, 11:56:47 02/19/04 Thu

Wes's main problem is his own lack of self esteem, and his self-hatred. Theres no sociopathy there, if anything he feels too much, but was taught not to show strong emotions, hence his conflicted behavior. This is rather common among introverted personalities, but it's learned behavior and can be unlearned.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Wrong Term, Perhaps -- Pip, 12:30:21 02/19/04 Thu

I don't think Wesley is a narcissist, either. [grin]

If you're determined to hang some kind of syndrome on him, you could look at his backstory in the show.

His backstory has Wesley as the victim of childhood psychological abuse. Adult survivors of such abuse are quite likely to have difficulty with long term relationships, because they've never seen a healthy relationship. They will have difficulty trusting others because they've learnt as a child that the adults supposed to care for them aren't reliable. They might see things in black and white terms. They can produce a strong facade that hides an inner lack of self-esteem. They can be 'over-responsible' - everything and everyone is their responsibility. Because they didn't get the opportunity to grow up in a healthy way, they might appear at an earlier stage in their development than their age would warrant. They can have extreme difficulty with normal social behaviour because they had to learn what 'normal social behaviour' was as an adult.

Is this starting to sound like Wesley to you?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Wrong Term, Perhaps -- Gyrus, 15:13:18 02/19/04 Thu

They can have extreme difficulty with normal social behaviour because they had to learn what 'normal social behaviour' was as an adult.

Is this starting to sound like Wesley to you?

Yes. Especially when you spell "behavior" with a "u". :)

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I could also tell you (again) about the purpose of an inventory. :-) -- Pip, 15:31:17 02/19/04 Thu


[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Wes in Season 5 -- Claudia, 09:39:20 02/20/04 Fri

Whatever label you can apply to Wes, I do not see a happy future for him. Because of his background, he seems to harbor some kind of emotional immaturity that has led him to make a great deal of mistakes in his life - joining the Watchers' Council, his mistakes with Faith, his near worship of Angel, kidnapping Connor, his pursuit of Fred, and his willingness to stay with Angel at Wolfram & Hart. He reminds me of an idealist, who harbors a black-and-white view of the world. Around late Season 4, it seemed as if he was outgrowing this view and learning to mature. But I suspect that the mindwipe may have set him back, emotionally. Wes seems to be living in some kind of facade that he is finally developing as a person.

First, let's look at his relationship with Fred. Personally, I think that Wes is making a grave mistake in getting romantically involved with her. After all of these years, he still views Fred as some ideal woman whose love will make up for all of the unhappiness and disappointments in his life. He is in love and possibly obssessed with a woman who, deep down, does not really know or understand him. This is ideal love on his part, and it is the kind of love that can lead to a great deal of future disappointment.

Another mistake seems to be his continuing trust and belief in Angel. He honestly believe that AI can make a positive change at the firm. I think that Wes if fooling himself. I think even RogerBot was aware of this. I have asked a few questions about his actions, this year, and no one seems to have any answers for it. Why did Wes seemed adamant that the Shanshu prophecy had nothing to do with Spike in "Cautionary Tale . . ."? Why was he so adamant in Spike remaining in Los Angeles in "Harm's Way"? When he and Gunn visited Spike in "Soul Purpose", I noticed that Wes seemed particularly intent upon convincing Spike to join Wolfram & Hart. Why? So that he can feel good about himself in his decision to remain with Angel and W&H? And why was he so upset when Angel did nothing to stop Andrew and the Slayers from taking away Dana in "Damage"?

Sometimes, I get the feeling that Wes is using both his association with Angel and Wolfram & Hart, along with his new romance with Fred, to assauge or hide any feelings of insecurity that he may possess. I suspect that he has spent most of Season 5 in a state of illusion. Only the next 7 episodes will tell how long this illusion will last.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Wesley (Spoilers for Season 5.1 - 5.13) -- Pip, 14:21:51 02/20/04 Fri

Given Wesley's character development from BtVS S3 through to AtS 5.13, I can see a happy future for him, simply because one of Wesley's major characteristics is that he can learn from, and make changes due to, his experiences. But I doubt he's going to have a happy future until he survives the final ending of AtS (fingers crossed that another network is found and the final ending is not in a few weeks) [grin].

He has a lot in common with Spike, strangely. Both are characters who develop, both learn from their mistakes. Both are people who prefer taking some kind of action rather than passively waiting for the foretold to happen. When Angel was trapped in an impossible to escape from situation at the end of AtS S3, it's Wesley who worked out what action could be taken. When Spike was trapped in an impossible situation at the end of S6 BtVS, he worked out what action could be taken to change it.

Wes has never really struck me as an idealist. He's a proceduralist. In BtVS S3 Becoming the Watcher's Council stick to the rules and refuse to help save a vampire (Angel). You can see from Wesley's face that he knows the Council is wrong, that as Giles has said, these are 'special cirumstances'. He still tries to persuade Buffy to follow the Council's orders. When he finds out that Faith has woken up from her coma in Five by Five , his first comment is about correct procedure. Giles should have contacted him first, as Faith's watcher. He does show later in the scene that he's concerned about Faith herself - but that's not his first thought.

The apparently black and white viewpoint isn't idealism (though Wesley generally does care about people and about doing good). It's because Wesley likes following 'the rules'. Given his backstory it's unsurprising - Wesley was probably least humiliated when he followed his father's rules, and his main refuge would have been the eight months a year spent at a boarding school that sounds 'very traditional public [prep] school' in style. Again, success at school would result from following 'the rules'. We know Wesley was successful at school, because his Head Boy status has been mentioned twice now. [For non-Brits - Head Boy or Girl is one of the biggest achievements possible in an English school career. And, yes, we make that joke too. ;-)].

The signs of his growing maturity actually start in AtS S2. For example, in Disharmony he's persuaded against staking Harmony just after he's spouted the official Watcher's Council instructions on vampires:
That is not your friend. That thing may have your friend's memories and her appearance, but it's just a filthy demon, an unholy monster. Uh, no offence.

I'd agree entirely that the mindwipe has set him back. Of course it's set him back. For someone who learns easily from experience to lose the memory of important experiences? Cordelia didn't use too strong a word when she called it 'rape'. There should be quite a 'fault zone' in his personality; it wouldn't be surprising if Wesley is the most aware of all the Gang that something, he doesn't know what but something is wrong somehow.

I'm not going to comment much on Wes's relationship with Fred because, to be honest, I'm shipping-blind. It wouldn't surprise me if he tended to idealise Fred a bit - but hey, love is like that. Characters in drama mainly enter relationships according to dramatic potential, anyway.

Wes's continuing belief and trust in Angel must be seen against the loss of major memories from halfway through Season 3. What exactly he does remember is debateable. But at the point where it all starts to go horribly fuzzy, Angel has gone dark, come back from that, and made a pretty good job of regaining the team's trust. Angel's gone to hell to save Cordelia (literally) in The Vision Thing . He's showed up to almost certain death in That Old Gang Of Mine to save AI. How much does Wesley remember after that? He remembers killing his girlfriend. But the scar is gone from kidnapping Connor - so does he remember Angel trying to kill him? Saying he's making a mistake in trusting Angel could be like saying someone's making a mistake going down a damaged road - when the signs saying 'road being repaired' have been taken away.

I am also reminded of Wes's comment to Gunn in the last episode of AtS S2, where he gives Angel a stirring speech about him being a man with a monster inside, not the other way round. When Gunn asks him whether he actually believes that, Wes replies: I need him to think it. . The inside of Wolfram and Hart can easily be such a situation. It may be uncertain whether the AI team can make a positive change - but it is certain that once they lose the hope that they can change things, they're done for.

Why did Wes seemed adamant that the Shanshu prophecy had nothing to do with Spike in "Cautionary Tale . . ."?

To me, he didn't seem adamant. Cautionary Tale comes after Hellbound , so Wes knows that it is possible for a ghost to be re-corporealised. Firstly he takes time to chat with Spike about the prophecy, at a moment when he's pretty busy researching. Secondly, Spike is very clearly asking 'is this a route to my becoming alive again?'. His line is:
you mean like, um... heroically closing a hellmouth that was about to destroy the world?


That's something Spike's already done, of course. At that point Wesley says he doesn't know which apocalyptic battle is meant. Later on Spike asks if the prophecy is specific about the name. That's when Wesley delivers his line:
No, I imagine it could be any vampire with a soul...who *isn't* a ghost.

That isn't really being adamant that the prophecy isn't about Spike. Firstly, you have to remember that both Wesley and Spike know recorporealisation (how do you spell that word?) is possible - just incredibly difficult. That changes the subtext (underlying meaning) of the line right there, from 'you're not a candidate' to 'you're not a candidate as long as you're a ghost . Secondly, Spike's line of questioning all has a subtext of 'could I have already done this Shanshu thingy?'. Which adds another layer to Wes's reply - one of 'well, you're a ghost, so it doesn't look like it.'

So far from being adamant that the Shanshu is nothing to do with Spike, Wesley is simply saying 1) it doesn't look like you at the moment, on the grounds that you are presently a ghost, NOT a vampire with a soul and 2) This isn't the route to your re-corporealisation. You'll have to find some other way. Using the Shanshu won't work; it just can't be made to apply.

Why was he so adamant in Spike remaining in Los Angeles in "Harm's Way"?

Well, once you get rid of the idea that he was being adamant that the Shanshu has nothing to do with Spike in Cautionary Tale , you can see that Wesley is being entirely consistent. Spike's recorporealisation puts him very firmly back in the Shanshu game. Wolfram & Hart have been saying since Season 2 (or was it Season 1?) that they have an apocalypse planned. If it's Wolfram & Hart planned, it's probably planned for LA. That means a sensible course of action is to keep both ensouled vampire candidates in Los Angeles.

I noticed that Wes seemed particularly intent upon convincing Spike to join Wolfram & Hart. Why?

Possibly because Spike, in his irritating, chaotic way, is a force for good. Wesley's been told that Spike 'helped' :-) to save the world, he's also seen Spike try to save Angel from Hainsley, Fred from Pavayne, and may have been told about the concentrated punch that saved Gunn in Lineage. The 'vigilante' activities also concentrate on saving people.

Frankly, if you're stuck in the belly of the beast trying to turn it from 'bad' to 'good', it might occur to you that you really need all the help you can get. Again, if you look at the lines you'll see that it's Gunn playing 'bad cop'. Wes's lines are all about wanting Spike to help.

We're getting reports of a vigilante who matches your description.

From what we hear... you're fighting the good fight these days.

If you want to save the world, we've got the resources to help you do it.

and in a later scene:

Apparently we're not good enough for him.

It's actually Gunn who has the 'stepping on our territory' lines:

What's your angle?

We figure that's our territory.


And why was he so upset when Angel did nothing to stop Andrew and the Slayers from taking away Dana in "Damage"?

Again, it's consistent with his comment to Spike in 'Soul Purpose.' You could easily have put his line 'we have the resources to help you do it' in that scene, and had Wes say it to Andrew as well as to Spike. Why hand Dana over to Andrew, who has no resources, when Wolfram and Hart have an entire medical section that could be used to help her?

I suspect Wes sees Wolfram & Hart as evil, but their resources as morally neutral. It then becomes completely understandable why he'd want to stay there - they have this enormous resource base, which, in his view, just has to be redirected to do more good than he could have hoped to do in a lifetime at the Hyperion. Wes is 'resource guy'. He needs equipment for his trade. Fred really only needs her brain to work and a wall to write on - Wes needs ancient texts, magical equipment, lots of sharp pointy objects. And Wolfram and Hart is resource heaven, with text upon text, an entire team of translators, psychics, budgets for weird and wonderful weapons, etc.

I think you are correct in spotting that Wesley has got a slight 'edge' in his reactions to events, though. As I said above - Wesley is the most plausible member of the AI group to be almost-but-not-quite aware of the mind-wipe. He's had the most changes. He may also be almost-but-not-quite aware that it's something to do with Angel - but he may believe it's an attack on Angel, rather than something Angel himself has done. He's also (given past events) the most likely member of AI to take action about this without discussing it with anyone else. Given the psychological abuse revealed in his backstory, and the events in Lineage , there's also the possibility that finding out the truth may cause a dangerous kind of mental breakdown.

But I don't really see a 'facade' developing in this season. Wes's actions are all consistent with a desire to use Wolfram & Hart for good. He certainly does make a lot of mistakes - but the point is that someone basically inclined solving problems by action (compared with someone basically inclined to solve problems by brooding, like Angel) will tend to make lots of mistakes. Mistakes are inevitable in the 'action' learning pattern. The pattern is 'try this, oops, didn't work, try that, darn, OK, try something else - ah. That's the one.'

This is the real irony about Wes - that he was trained from childhood to be a Watcher, observing from a safe distance and working with books. What he actually is , instinctively, is a man of action.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Wesley (Spoilers for Season 5.1 - 5.13) -- Claudia, 16:30:31 02/20/04 Fri

"Given Wesley's character development from BtVS S3 through to AtS 5.13, I can see a happy future for him, simply because one of Wesley's major characteristics is that he can learn from, and make changes due to, his experiences. But I doubt he's going to have a happy future until he survives the final ending of AtS (fingers crossed that another network is found and the final ending is not in a few weeks) [grin]."


I won't comment on this.


"Again, it's consistent with his comment to Spike in 'Soul Purpose.' You could easily have put his line 'we have the resources to help you do it' in that scene, and had Wes say it to Andrew as well as to Spike. Why hand Dana over to Andrew, who has no resources, when Wolfram and Hart have an entire medical section that could be used to help her?"

Really? I found his attitude rather sinister. And so did a good number of other people. And why in the hell would he care what Spike did? And how did he know that Andrew and the Slayers had no resources? I mean didn't Andrew explain that there was a new Watcher's Council? Or was Wes listening?

"But I don't really see a 'facade' developing in this season."

I don't think this "facade" is something that has been developing during this season. I think it has been a part of Wes' nature for a long time.

"That means a sensible course of action is to keep both ensouled vampire candidates in Los Angeles."

Why? Why is it so necessary for Wes to be around both souled vampires? Why does he have such a deep interest in the Shanshu prophecy? What is it to him?

"I'm not going to comment much on Wes's relationship with Fred because, to be honest, I'm shipping-blind. It wouldn't surprise me if he tended to idealise Fred a bit - but hey, love is like that. Characters in drama mainly enter relationships according to dramatic potential, anyway."

He idealizes Fred A LOT. And I think it is a very unhealthy attitude to have toward a loved one. But then I have never considered idealized love unhealthy. It seems to smack of immaturity.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Wesley (Spoilers for Season 5.1 - 5.13) -- Finn Mac Cool, 19:43:51 02/20/04 Fri

The events of "Destiny" led the Fang Gang to believe the two ensouled vampires could inevitably cause a cosmic calamity, so keeping an eye on them is just an attempt to find a solution to such a problem. Also, since the Shanshu prophecy involves an upcoming apocalypse, Wesley has another reason to have an interest in it.

As for seeming sinister, that's all in the eye of the beholder.

Lastly, regarding him idealising Fred, I don't feel qualified to give an opinion one way or the other. Can you give some examples of him idealising her?

[> It should also be noted, for casual readers... -- KdS, 04:37:49 02/20/04 Fri

That the authors of the essay linked to above are two of the most hard-core Lilah fans and Wes/Lilah shippers in the online fandom. As such, their commitment to the idea that Wes/Lilah was a potentially mutually healthy thing leads them to some very controversial ideas about both characters' personality and private moral opinions, especially Wesley's.

[> [> Which Essay is That? -- Claudia, 10:00:33 02/20/04 Fri


[> [> [> The one you linked to in your initial post -- KdS, 13:53:41 02/20/04 Fri

What do you want to see in the finale? (spoilers up to 5.13 only!) -- Pony, 10:46:06 02/18/04 Wed

While I am currently developing many, and hopefully irrational, fears about what we're going to see in the finale, I thought it best to concentrate on what I want to see rather than what I really don't.

So I was thinking about how the confrontation between Lawson and Angel was a replay of the final fight between Angel and Connor in Home, with much the same result. Perhaps in the end we'll see this scenario for the third time with Connor, or Spike standing in, but instead Angel is finally able to offer a different kind of mercy than death. A bit o' compassion is what I'm looking for. Vague enough?

Anyone else?

Replies:

[> Re: What do you want to see in the finale? (spoilers up to 5.13 only!) -- Dlgood, 11:12:45 02/18/04 Wed

That's vague, and I'd like to see it.

Another thing I'd like to see:

Angel, in Ireland, laying flowers on his family's gravestones. That's an image I would really like to see for him.

[> [> Re: What do you want to see in the finale? (spoilers up to 5.13 only!) -- Jaelvis, 12:33:11 02/18/04 Wed

That's a beautiful thought and would say so much for how far Angel has come. Maybe he can put some flowers on Liam's grave as well.

[> [> Re: What do you want to see in the finale? (spoilers up to 5.13 only!) -- The Hat, 13:46:16 02/18/04 Wed

Iíve lurked on the ATP board for years, on and off, and first off Iíd like to say that your ideas, all of you, have really enriched my viewing of Whedonís television programs. So thanks for that.

During idle moments in the past few days, Iíve been mulling over what Iíd like to see in the ìAngelî finale. Of course, I donít want it to end, but since it must, there ought to be some sort of closure. Problem is, Angel is an immortal being, and the show has already established that Shanshu, if it ever comes, is a looong way off, so I donít think weíll be seeing the end of Angelís story in May. At least, I fervently hope not.

So I got to wondering what sort of open-ended closure the writers should offer at the end of this season. I have the beginnings of an idea, and since Pony has thrown the door open, I might as well share.

What I would like to see is the removal of Angelís curse, specifically the ìhappiness clauseî.

Angel gets a lot of crap for being ìMister Billowy-Coat King of Painî, always isolating himself, always brooding. More than once, watching the show, have I echoed Jasmine/Cordyís line from ìLong Dayís Journeyî: ìGet over itî.

But the thing is, he canít. Angel has a serious inability to accept and get past what he is and what heís done -- not just because his soul gnaws at him, but because if he ever lets himself be at peace, and knows a moment of contentment, he loses his soul. Youíve all seen ìInnocenceî, so I wonít belabor the point.

Anyone whoís done awful things, if theyíre ever going to be a complete person again, has to face what theyíve done, accept it, and move past it (not forget it, just not let it control them). Weíve seen this happen for a number of characters. ìThe Killer in Meî for Willow. ìStorytellerî for Andrew. ìThe Dark Ageî for Giles. ìSelflessî for Anya. And the most pertinent example, ìDamageî for Spike. Having faced what heís done, and having begun the process of examining the nature of his evil, Spike has a shot at transcending it. Angel had an important experience along these lines in ìOrpheusî, when he faced and defeated an incarnation of his evil. But at the end of it, Willow restored his soul with the Romani spell she inherited from Jenny Calendar, curse included. This is probably the most contentious part of my idea, but since Willowís soul-restoration in ìBecoming Part IIî included the curse -- if it hadnít, the shamanís trick in ìAwakeningî wouldnít have worked -- I see no reason to believe she did anything different the second time around. (Especially since she says, ìPutting his soul back? Itís the first spell I ever learned. Not gonna forget that.î) Angel still has the danger of becoming a monster hanging over his head, and thus can never really have a positive opinion of himself. When Cordy asks if he feels good at the end of ìYouíre Welcomeî, he replies, ìI do. I just... I feel kind of bad about it.î Small wonder.

So hereís what I want to see in May. Willow, for whatever reason, comes to town and reworks the mojo on Angelís soul in much the same way she reworked the mojo on the Slayer essence. Too much Willow ex machina, you say? Well, I thought about that. And it occurred to me that Willow was closest thing to a friend that Angel had in Sunnydale. She urged Angel to take Buffy on a date in ìReptile Boyî, she gave him back his soul in ìBecomingî when almost everyone else had given up on him, she looked after him while he was poisoned in ìGraduation Dayî, and when Angel returned in ìPangsî, she was the second person he revealed himself to (after Giles, but that was all business, I would argue). She came to LA to tell Angel that Buffy had died and called a few months later about the resurrection. Above all, she left an extremely volatile situation in Sunnydale last year to come to LA and restore Angelís soul once again. It wouldnít be out of character for her to give him such a profound gift.

And if enough former ìBuffyî actors play ball, maybe there could be a group ritual, incorporating not only Spike and the Fang Gang and all their spiritual ties to Angel; but also Xander, who hates Angel for what he is; Giles, who dislikes Angel because of what heís done, Buffy, who loves him for who he is and despite what he is and what heís done... I dunno. Whedon will come up with something far cooler than anything I could . After all, heís been living with these characters for years. Itís a shame that the ride is (seemingly) at an end, but I have a feeling that the end will be extraordinary. Hereís hoping.

[> [> [> Re: What do you want to see in the finale? (spoilers up to 5.13 only!) -- Kate, 14:17:30 02/18/04 Wed

Oh, yes, all of you have come up with some wonderful ideas for the ending. I love the idea of Angel going home to Ireland to make some sort of peace with his family and his actions as Angelus. A lovely, lovely thought.

I also love the idea you put forth The Hat of Willow coming to town and removing the happiness clause from the curse and thus no longer making it a curse. That would be great because I don't think (and I don't want to see it happen yet) that Angel is ready for Shanshu, but this would be a nice compromise. I do think Angel deserves a bit of reward for having come this far - like Buffy having her burden of "The Chosen One" removed and the lack of a happiness clause would be a great one.

Overall, I would like things to end on an upbeat note with some closure, but open ended - like Buffy. That worked so well for me with "Chosen" and it would be nice to see that happen on "Angel." 'Though still saddened that we are having this discussion at all. I had hoped it was at least another year off. :( :(

[> [> [> [> Re: What do you want to see in the finale? (spoilers up to 5.13 only!) -- angel's nibblet, 14:44:49 02/18/04 Wed

I think I've said this before, but, I'd like to see Angel do his cracy dance from 'She' I think it was, played over the final credits but with a punk cover of 'Mandy' playing over it! I think it would be hilarious!!!! The cover I'm thinking of is by a band called Me first and the gimme gimme's.

Classic.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: What do you want to see in the finale? (spoilers up to 5.13 only!) -- Jane, 15:59:41 02/18/04 Wed

I'd like to see the happiness clause removed,too. It really keeps Angel from moving ahead, because what sense is there in accepting that he deserves to feel good about himself if that way lies Evil Angelus? I think removing the clause would make his atonement more worthy, because he'd be doing it without the spectre of freeing Angelus if he gets too happy. Also, that way, Buffy can finish baking and have a real choice about who her true love is! I make no predictions about that.
Oh, and the scene of Angel laying flowers on his family's graves - what a beautiful ending shot!

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: What do you want to see in the finale? (spoilers up to 5.13 only!) -- Cern, 09:21:55 02/19/04 Thu

i was thinking of a direct parrallel to Buffys ending, in that Angel and Spike would cast a spell ensoulling all vampires in the world. maybe get that cave-lurking demon that ensoulled Spike to do it.

[> [> [> Oh yes -- KdS, 04:43:38 02/20/04 Fri

I've been thinking since at least Season Three that the happiness clause is a plot device that has had its day, although that was at least partly because of the serious plot problems it created during the Baby-Connor period. I think it's been made clear enough now that Angel's angst has far more to do with his inherent psychological tendencies than the external curse, and it would be interesting to see what happened if it were removed, if he would allow himself to move past it.

[> Re: What do you want to see in the finale? (spoilers up to 5.13 only!) -- Cheryl, 16:32:25 02/18/04 Wed

I like the happiness clause removal idea. And I think it's more likely for AH to make an appearance than SMG. Although I don't know how long AH is doing that play in London. And I would like some closure with Angel and Buffy, like a phone call or reference to a phone call where they talk about what Andrew said about the others not trusting Angel anymore.

I'd like to see them out of W&H and on their own path again. And Fred and Wes in a relationship, or the beginning of a real relationship.

And I hope they answer some questions - like who was behind the robots after Angel in Lineage and why Lindsey did what he did.

And I think Spike should go to Europe and meet up with Buffy, if only to talk about things.

[> Re: What do you want to see in the finale? (spoilers up to 5.13 only!) -- Dead (and killing time before 5.14) Soul, 19:01:37 02/18/04 Wed

"The best trick the devil ever pulled was to convince everyone he doesn't exist." (Or words to that effect)

Angel does indeed go to Ireland to lay flowers on the graves of his family and himself. Afterwards, becoming all verklempt (sp, anom?), he takes himself to a local Galway pub for a drop 'o the Irish and, many drops later, finds himself in drunken conversation with a wee small man dressed all in green and smoking a pipe.

The wee small man confides in him that not only do leprechauns exist, they're really the PTB, the Senior Partners, and the First Evil.

In the morning, Angel remembers nothing, but finds a shiny gold doubloon in his pocket.

And to tie it in with the curse-removal ideas, Lorne, having finally regained his mojo (when, since W&H mind-reamed him in STB, has Lorne done an accurate reading?), hears Angel hum Copacobana and realizes the doubloon has de-eunuched Angel.

The final episode closes out with Lorne smiling wickedly. Reams of A/L fanfic flood the internet within 48 hours.

[> [> Re: What do you want to see in the finale? (spoilers up to 5.13 only!) -- botitas, 22:24:26 02/18/04 Wed

What's with all the flowers and the curse being lifted... I want blood, death, and apocalyptic destruction. Let the writers go Hamlet and litter the stage with broken bodies. Hey, Lorne already called Angel "a prince". Buffy...gone... Firefly...gone and now Angel. Hell at least let Joss wipe L. A. off the face of the earth or better yet send the whole universe to Hell where all that's on TV is American Idol and Survivor. Unleash the dogs of war and let the hurly burly come.

[> [> [> Fate of the Fang Gang (spoilers up to 5.14 only) -- Claudia, 11:14:52 02/19/04 Thu

I don't think it will end well for the Fang Gang. I think that Angel's deal with Wolfram & Hart will more or less destroy them all.

Gunn's self-esteem issues and his willingness to anything about it, will end badly for him. Maybe even destroy him. Ironically, it was Angel's deal with W&H that gave him the opportunity to make a very costly mistake.

Fred's interest in and apparent lack of respect for the supernatural and her tendency to treat it as a science experiment will not help her.

I don't know about Lorne. I think he will leave Angel & Co., after he finds out about the mindwipe.

Wes, I believe, is going to screw up big time. Maybe on a bigger scale than Gunn. I think there were foreshadows in his kidnapping of Connor in S3, the revelation of his inner violence in "Billy", and his feelings for Fred (which have never been healthy). I also believe that his shooting of RogerBot in "Lineage" and Angel's dream in "Soul Purpose" are foreshadows of his violent nature coming out in the most negative way. In the end, I think this will destroy him.

Spike? I suspect that Spike will survive the upheaval to come. Either he will head for Europe to see Buffy. Or remain in the States and pick up, where the Fang Gang left off.

I don't know what to say about Angel. The WB has already aired 14 out of 22 episodes. And he has yet to confess about the W&H deal and the mindwipe. If he survives the series finale . . . I will be very surprised.

[> [> [> Unleash the dogs of war - spoilers to 5.13 only -- Ann, 18:56:00 02/19/04 Thu

Perhaps those were the puppet dogs last night. Muppet Angel did end up in the doghouse last night during the fight. lol

[> Grr Argh -- Athena, 23:44:04 02/19/04 Thu

Firstly, I want it not to be the series finale. The ending of this season will probably be more fitting if Joss and co. are suddenly attempting to wrap everything up within ten episodes. Buffy season five and seven both served as appropriate ends for the show in my mind, but I don't get that vibe from this season of Angel.

If it does end I would like a couple things:
1. No typical-Spike romances. I love the guy, but he needs more friends and less girlfriends. Too often is he (prior to this year) centered around some female. He needs to get comfortable with being just Spike. If he does fall in love, I want it to be more equal relationship.
2. Gunn - I'd like to see him on the road to self-confidence.
3. Angel - A big part of me wants him and Connor to reconcile. I don't think the big lug loves or loved anyone more than his son and ultimately, I'd like Connor let himself let go of Holtz's brainwashing, and allow himself to return that love. Of course, since Connor has been brain-wiped and bringing him back in the wrong way would probably wreck the show, I imagine this is completely unreasonable.
TV Guide on those "Angel" on UPN rumors... -- Rob, 10:55:05 02/18/04 Wed

"...rumors that the axed WB drama could follow in Buffy the Vampire Slayer's footsteps and put down stakes at rival network UPN are just that ó rumors. "We've talked about the possibility," Whedon says, "but it's a long shot." A UPN spokeswoman had no comment, but an Angel insider confirms that execs at Twentieth Century Fox (Angel's producer) are putting together a proposal for UPN."

Cross those fingers, guys...and oh, maybe we should be sending postcards to UPN now, too. Anyone have any addresses for that network?

Rob

Replies:

[> Re: TV Guide on those "Angel" on UPN rumors... -- Ann, 11:08:07 02/18/04 Wed

MAIN UPN NETWORK ADDRESS:
Dawn Tarnofsky-Ostroff, Programming Chief
United Paramount Network
11800 Wilshire Blvd.
Los Angeles, CA 90025
(310) 575-7000

https://www.parentstv.org/PTC/networks/UPNAFFILIATES.htm

All of the affiliates and address, emails etc are listed at this site.

[> [> Thanks! -- Rob, 11:13:17 02/18/04 Wed


[> [> definitly! TNT and HBO...longshots as well, but worth a shot? Anyone got addys? -- Nino, 13:18:07 02/18/04 Wed


[> [> [> Oops..I see TNT now..is HBO crazy-talk? It seems like a good fit to me. -- Nino, 13:25:11 02/18/04 Wed


[> [> [> [> HBO is probably crazy talk. Showtime, not so much, even though it is still a long shot. -- Rob, 14:16:57 02/18/04 Wed


[> [> [> And how about Robert Bianco of USA Today? He has always been a big Joss supporter, -- Nino, 13:39:56 02/18/04 Wed


[> [> LOLOLOL -- KdS, 04:47:23 02/20/04 Fri

Say what you like about that bunch of hysterical purity-campaigning scumbags, they're a good source for addresses. Adds a whole new layer of pleasure if this works, given their opinion of AtS.

[> What about the USA network? Maybe it could work matched with the Dead Zone. -- drivebyeposter, 18:35:57 02/18/04 Wed

My analysis of "Why We Fight" is up -- Masquerade, 15:23:28 02/18/04 Wed

This seems to be a week for waxing sentimental about our favorite shows. That is, once you get past the denial, anger, bargaining and all those other steps.

Writing the analysis of "Why We Fight" gave me a deeper appreciation for the episode and for the genius that is ME. Hardly the first time that has happened. It makes me wonder how I would have felt about this show or BtVS had I never done any episode analyses.

It makes me wonder if I under-appreciate other shows because I don't analyze them philosophically. What do you think? All things philosophical on 'Alias'?

Replies:

[> Thanks, Masq... -- Jane, 15:44:05 02/18/04 Wed

enjoyed your analysis as always. I really agree that examining the shows philisophically adds immensely to the appreciation of them. I thank all of you who have more knowledge of philosophy than I do for giving me such a window on my favourite shows. The first time I ever visited ATP, I spent hours reading the essays - I was blown away by the one on Buffy and the Hero's path. I'd read Joseph Campbell's work, and to find that this show touched the same themes was amazing. Turned my casual obsession into a full-blown one. And then I discovered the discussion board...

[> ATPoAlias has my vote -- RadiusRS, 20:57:44 02/18/04 Wed


[> Great analysis of a great episode (one of the best eps. so far) -- MissB, 05:42:10 02/19/04 Thu

"Happy Puppet Syndrom" -- mucifer, 19:11:55 02/18/04 Wed

So I was watching tonight's Angel episode and I remembered there is a genetic syndrome called "happy puppet syndrome". (I'm a pediatric nurse and I only saw it once). So I googled it just now and found it also has another name. Google it and see.

Replies:

[> That is freaky!!!! -- RadiusRS, 19:16:44 02/18/04 Wed


[> LOL! -- Pony, 19:18:28 02/18/04 Wed


[> sorry spoiler from tonights episode in this thread -- mucifer, 19:24:03 02/18/04 Wed


[> OMG! That's hilarious!!! -- YesPlease, 21:32:01 02/18/04 Wed


[> That is so funny! -- Pip, 02:45:32 02/19/04 Thu


[> LOL!!! -- Rob, 07:41:07 02/19/04 Thu


[> *cue x-files music* LOL!!! Coincidence? Or not? We may never know... -- angel's nibblet, 15:49:18 02/20/04 Fri

Smile Time - too good for network television -- Ames, 19:31:33 02/18/04 Wed


Replies:

[> You said it. It was absolutely brilliant--hilarious, wacky, weird, twisted, disturbing. Loved it! -- Rob, 20:47:47 02/18/04 Wed


[> [> Ditto -- Athena, 22:04:33 02/18/04 Wed

I loved every bit of it, but unfortunately, I couldn't stop laughing. ^_^

[> [> [> I WANT ONE!!! -- Metron, 22:14:41 02/18/04 Wed

Okay, I told my wife I wanted one, and she emphatically said NO.

I want an ANGEL Puppet!

even if it DOESN'T vamp out. :)

[> [> [> [> Join the club -- Masq, 15:59:33 02/19/04 Thu

I've heard that from like, a bazillion people today. ME could rake in the bucks...

Oooh, hey, a fund-raiser idea to aid in getting season 6...

[> [> [> [> [> Me too! Angel puppet would look so great in my room, plus is soooo cute :-D -- angel's nibblet, 01:04:50 02/20/04 Fri

I agree Masq, fundraising for season 6 thru Angel puppets! I don't care what they cost, I want one of my very own!

[> Your right, way too good for network television -- skpe, 05:52:37 02/19/04 Thu

Finally!!! (spoilers up 5.14: "Smile Time" and some unspoiled speculation) -- RadiusRS, 20:25:40 02/18/04 Wed

Great episode, though it seems to me it suffers from a recurring characteristic of a lot of shows this season, namely, the intensity is somewhat muted. The commentary on TV draining the life out of people, while being shown on TV, adds a deliciously ironic postmodern twist. From the previews, it was obvious what the metaphor for the ep was, and we get hit over the head with it various times, especially when Spike finds out. This solidified for me that Spike is the Seer of this season, the one who sees things and speaks them, much as Cordy was on both Buffy and Angel, and Anya and to an extent Xander on both Buffy and Angel. I loved the Lorne time in the episode, and finally understand why he's had so little to do this season: Spike has replaced him as soothsayer. It saddens me that, with the imminent threat of this being the final season, his character has pretty much gone the way of Xander in Buffy Season 7. I hope in the following eps they continue putting him in the position of where he was best, as the angel on Angel's shoulder. His function as this has been sorely missed by me.

The whole Angel as puppet is obviously another wake-up call, and seems to me to be a recurring theme in the series from the first season on, which was made most obvious in last season's Jasmine arc with all of her and Skip's revelations about the past few seasons. The question is, why has it been gone over again this season? Can it be put to rest? And with all the cancellation brouhaha, it's interesting that this should be the theme of this season. And finally, Angel gets over himself!! And Wesley tells him to do it!! Arguably Angel's been in worse situations than Wolfram & Hart, so what has brought him to this realization at this point in his journey? Is it because he's hit rock bottom? Because I don't think he has yet; rock bottom was Darla, and he's betrayed his friends before. In three episodes, we've been reminded of Cordy, Connor, and probably Buffy (was it with Angel and blondes? He didn't really dig Cordy until she lightened her locks, and there's Darla and Buffy. And Nina had the same haircut as Buffy did for a long time in two of her three scenes.). Since Connor might come back at some point, and Buffy was supposed to come back at one point, is this intentional? Is Angel being reminded of the people he's truly loved in his life for some reason? What dramatic function or purpose does this serve in Angel's journey? I called this post "Finally!!" because it seems to me that every time Angel has fallen in the past, he's managed to get up again, but he's never been reminded so vividly of the people's he's loved (and I don't mean friend-love, I mean paternal or romantic love) right before he falls, because if I know ME, the next few episodes are going to have some really bad $#!+ happening to our gang.

Nina is a great thing for the show in my opinion. Not only because she ups the female factor but also because her curse and her newness to this world of monsters gives her a clearer perspective than most of the gang. The way she talked to Angel, called him Hero just like Cordy did in "You're Welcome", and his puppet-face reaction to that was beautiful; I never knew felt could emote so much. Nina is at a place where she has accepted her curse, but chooses to go on living her life like Angel told her to in "Unleashed". Angel is on a parallel, in that he's realizing that living his life is about being in the moment. And having breakfast with Nina. Last episode, Angel killed his past, and in his visions of "Soul Purpose" he killed his future. Perhaps Wolfram & Hart was necessary for Angel's journey, which is why the PTB want him there but with open eyes. And I find it interesting that Joseph Campbell's fifth and final stage in the beginning phase of the Hero's Journey (Departure) is the "Belly of the Whale" which leads to rebirth into enlightenment through self-annihilation. The parallels are definitely there.

Gunn is an interesting counterpoint to Angel in that he does not want to leave the moment. He has found a purpose and is terrified to lose it, which is itself an interesting counterpoint and follow up to Lawson in "Why We Fight". I was overjoyed to see a bit of the old Gunn back tonight (both in the fight scene and in his insecurities) and kudos to J. August Richards for a great performance. Gunn's lack of self-esteem is what is precipitating his downfall, just as Angel and Wes regain theirs. And who knows if something else was put in his brain this time. I don't think he'll be the Big Bad this season, as it would be too obvious, but he is certainly the first to start crumbling so the others can't be too far behind.

As for Wes and Fred, it's nice to see them finally get their moment. Fred has gained so much self-esteem since she was alone against Jasmine and the City of Los Angeles, and she has been the only one Wolfram & Hart has improved in terms of character arc and development. Wesley, it finally hit me, is Angel's shadow, in that he is living through many of the same events that shaped Angel's life like when he thought he had killed his father, learning to live in the moment at the same time Angel does, falling to the Dark Side, etc. If you think about it, Wesley was instrumental to the Big Bad acheiving his goals in season 3 by making the wrong choice, just as Cordy did in season 4, so I find it interesting that Angel has this ability to suck people into this moral and existential vortex. But to Fred and Wes finally kissing, after two seasons of simmering, put a smile on my face. I just just hope ME let's this one last (which probably means they won't).

Replies:

[> Re: Finally!!! (spoilers up 5.14: "Smile Time" and some unspoiled speculation) -- Claudia, 08:57:59 02/19/04 Thu

I wasn't fond of the lack of Spike in this episode. Fortunately, Marsters managed to make up his minimum of screen time with a funny performance.

Too much sexual innuendos in regard to the females' state of dress and undress. What was up with Fred in her cheerleader outfit?

Wes and Fred are as unbelievable as ever, as a couple. And when did Fred begin distancing herself from Knox? What drove her to do this? I practically cringed from watching Fred kiss Wes. Why did she suddenly become interested in him?


The only real interesting things about this were Angel as a puppet, which was hilarious; and Charles' growing problem regarding his legal skills and his self-esteem. J. August Richards was fantastic.

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