February 2004 posts
A celebration of 100 episodes (no spoilers)
-- Jay, 19:15:17 02/04/04 Wed
I just wanted to congratulate everyone on a much deserved 100th
episode. It's been a pleasure to share this ride with everyone
here. Cheers!
Only episode that I haven't seen yet due to a vcr malfunction
and the WB's practice of rerunning Angel: Fredless
Favorite episode: Sleep tight
Favorite recurring character: Gwen, with a close second to Merle
Most missed character: Cordelia, with a close second to Doyle
Favorite writer: Tim Minear
Favorite season: three
Best addition to cast (post season one): Fred
Favorite evil lawyer: Lilah
Best death scene: Holtz, it was just so twisted
Time to bring back: Connor
Glad he/she/it is gone: Andrew
Needs to go: oh, I don't know - Eve?
Needs something to do: Lorne
What is up with?: Gunn
Most fun episode: Spin the Bottle
Question answered: As few as possible
Replies:
[> Celebration of a Character (spoilers through 5x12)
-- Nino, 19:25:45 02/04/04 Wed
Since we all heard the news that CC would not be returning to
"Angel" there have been debates, discussions and ideas
as to why...with all that behind us I would personally like to
thank Charisma Carpenter for seven fabulous years. I know some
people stopped liking her, I know some people never did...But
Cordy was a hell of a character in my book and what a fantastic
100th episode. My only qualm was that Cordy never mentioned any
doubt about her actions in "Tomorrow" along the lines
of "I let myself get played..." But overall, CC came
out in full force, the Cordy of old, and David Fury penned a very
touching 100th episode.
I honestly had no clue that she would die...I'm sure it was obvious
to everyone else, what with the "1 time only" thing
and Joss' love of killing characters...but I honestly was floored
when Angel said "When did she die." I still am pretty
emo about it. It ranks as my 3rd favorite Buffyverse death ( i
know favorite is a weird way to put it...but you know what I mean.)
As always death is very important in the Buffyverse. I think it
means something that Cordy is dead...maybe its just me, but I
won't be able to watch those early Buffy eps in the same light.
She was awesome. I loved her. What a sad, wonderful and fitting
end to her story.
[> The ANGEL 100th episode "meme" (no spoilers)
-- cjl, 19:26:18 02/04/04 Wed
I'll go along with that, Jay.
Favorite episode: "Reprise."
Favorite recurring character: Lilah, with Harmony a distant second.
Most missed character: Darla, with Lilah and Dru tied for second.
Favorite writer: Tim Minear (no contest)
Favorite season: Season Two.
Best addition to cast (post-Season One): Fred.
Best addition to the cast (overall): Wesley.
Favorite evil lawyer: Lilah. (Detecting a pattern here?)
Best death scene: Darla (in "Lullaby"). No contest.
Time to bring back: Darla and Dru (and yeah, Connor too).
Glad he/she/it is gone: Andrew (agreed).
Needs to go: oh, I don't know - Eve?
Needs something to do: Lorne.
What is up with?: Gunn.
Most fun episode: "Disharmony" (sorry, TCH).
[> [> Re: The ANGEL 100th episode "meme" (no
spoilers) -- Jay, 19:59:34 02/04/04 Wed
I guess I kinda started thinking of Lilah and Harmony as regular
cast members, even though they've never been in the opening credits.
But they are excellent choices.
You got me on Darla's death scene. How did I overlook that one?
One more...
Best flashback: Fanged Four in China, second going to Holtz killing
his newly vamped daughter.
[> [> Re: The ANGEL 100th episode "meme" (no
spoilers) -- d'Herblay, 22:52:39 02/04/04 Wed
I just cut and pasted most of cjl's answers.
Favorite episode: "Lullaby." Or "Are You Now Or
Have You Ever Been."
Favorite recurring character: I want to say Holland Manners, but
only due to my inability to characterize Lilah.
Most missed character: Cordelia barely wrests this category from
Lilah and Doyle.
Favorite writer: Tim Minear.
Favorite season: Season Four.
Best addition to cast (post-Season One): Gunn -- is he post-season
one? If not, I'm going to have to say Harmony.
Best addition to the cast: Yeah, Wesley.
Favorite evil lawyer: Lilah. (Detecting a pattern here?)
Best death scene: Darla (in "Lullaby"). Do we have to
specify? Damn, I think we do! This does just barely beat out her
death scene in "The Trial."
Time to bring back: Lilah. (Cordelia, Connor, Holland Manners,
Dru, Faith, Gwen Raiden, Dana.)
Glad he/she/it is gone: I'm not glad she's gone by any means,
but I'm surprised by how little people (including me) seem to
miss Kate.
Needs to go: Eve.
Needs something to do: Lorne.
What is up with?: Connor!
Most fun episode: "Disharmony" (sorry, TCH). Oh, wait,
"Rm W/ A Vu."
[> Joining in the meme (necessarily no post-5.8 spoilers)
-- Tchaikovsky, 05:15:29 02/05/04 Thu
Mostly just to rebuff the old Disharmony thing, cos I'm
petty like that.
Favorite episode: Reprise, with Loyalty, Soulless, Destiny
and Are You Now or Have You Ever Been all in there fighting,
and another god fifteen episodes just behind.
Favorite recurring character: This depends on whether any character
who becomes regular is banished from their earlier recurring performances.
If not, Lorne. If so, Holtz edges Lilah and Holland Manners.
Most missed character: Of the ones I'm not convinced are going
to come back? Doyle. The other list: Darla, Connor, Cordelia,
Lilah, Drusilla, is almost endless, but not necessarily finished
with.
Favorite writer: Tim Minear. There is a contest, since Mere Smith
is severely under-rated, Greenwalt has been forgotten a little,
and DeKnight has done some brilliant work. But Tim Minear is the
best writer ever on any ME show. And that takes some doing.
Favorite season: Season Two- barely edging Seasons Four and Three.
Best addition to cast (post-Season One): Lorne.
Best addition to the cast (overall): Wesley.
Favorite evil lawyer: Hmmm. Well Linwood and Parks are out. Lilah
and Holland Manners is a really close run thing. I'll give it
to Holland, to be different.
Best death scene: Darla. The point of the entire show, and therefore
kinda crucial. Of course, Angel's death scene would be a strong
contender were it not for the fact that it was in Becoming,
a Buffy episode.
Time to bring back: David Nabbitt.
Glad he/she/it is gone: Merle.
Needs to go: The current cast are all necessary, (although to
date some have been considered more necessary than others- would
someone use Harmony?
Needs something to do: Harmony. Lorne.
What is up with?: Lindsey. (Of course, I'm only spoiled up to
Destiny, so this is ind of important to me right now.
Most fun episode: From my Odyssey review of 'Disharmony': Found
this episode fun while I was bumbling along without my brain engaged,
and then got annoyed when I looked for deeper themes and resonances.
I think my dislike of 'Disharmony' is building up a kind of mythic
proportion! This is useful, since it reminds people of my mistrust
of David Fury, but if you go back and read the review you'll find
it was only certain sections I found irritating. I gave Life
of The Party, considerably more of a battering.
'Fredless' is great fun.
TCH
[> Re: A celebration of 100 episodes (no spoilers) --
s'kat, 15:56:18 02/05/04 Thu
Favorite episode: Sleep Tight
Favorite recurring character: Lilah
Most missed character: Lilah
Favorite writer: Tim Minear
Favorite season: Four (although it may be Five depending on what
the next few episodes hold)
Best addition to cast (post season one): Spike, with Fred a close
second
Favorite evil lawyer: Lindsey
Best death scene: Holtz, it was just so twisted
Time to bring back: Connor
Glad he/she/it is gone: Plead the Fifth
Needs to go: Eve
Needs something to do: Lorne
What is up with?: Gunn
Most fun episode: Harm's Way
Character I should Miss more? Doyle, but haven't, which surprised
me.
[> Re: A celebration of 100 episodes (no spoilers) --
Rob, 17:05:43 02/06/04 Fri
Favorite episode: tie between Peace Out and Sleep Tight
Favorite recurring character: Harmony
Most missed character: Lilah
Favorite writer: Tim Minear
Favorite season: Three
Best addition to cast (post season one): Spike, with Fred a close
second (stole s'kat's answer)
Favorite evil lawyer: Lilah
Best death scene: Darla
Time to bring back: Connor
Glad he/she/it is gone: Justine
Needs to go: Nobody. At times, I find Gunn irritating, but still
wouldn't want him gone.
Needs something to do: Lorne
What is up with?: Lindsey
Most fun episode: The entire Pylea arc
And I'm going to add one more...
Sweetest/Most Touching episode: You're Welcome
Rob
At least Cordy went out with
a bang am I right? -- angel, 19:36:52 02/04/04 Wed
The powers owed for season 4 so they magically gave her a temporaly
corporal body and get Angel back on track. Cordy asks why the
hell Angel and crew joined Wolfram&Hart. She help him find
himself and his girth to be the champ he was. Plus she got kick
ass for a final time and gave a goodbye kiss. It was really emotional
at the End for me as Angel foung out this was goodbye for her.
Replies:
[> SPOILERS for 5.12 in the post above -- Finn Mac Cool,
19:57:23 02/04/04 Wed
[> Re: At least Cordy went out with a bang am I right?
-- buffyguy, 20:18:19 02/04/04 Wed
WHY?!? why do they have to kill her off...at least if she were
alive she could guest on the show. I was kind of content when
she was in a coma cause it meant she would eventually wake up
and could do guest roles. but this, this is just too much for
me to understand...i see no point in killing her. Okay okay, her
use to the show has run its course, BULL! no one told it like
it was like cordy could, no one had the brass balls like cordy
did and no one could side quip like she could. It just irks me
that they just couldnt say she was going to help out the scoobies
with her visions or something like that. but no, she gets the
axe. Does anyone think she can ever do a guest again, and not
just as a flashback? seriously, ok, she kicked ass in this eppy
as she always does. but if they had just cut that last phone call
out i would have thought it was the best eppy. i just feel so
jilted. is ANYONE with me on this?!?
[> [> Re: At least Cordy went out with a bang am I right?
-- xlharris, 20:23:31 02/04/04 Wed
It's an end of an era. But you must read David's online transcript...
Suggests that death isn't permanent.
http://www.livejournal.com/users/ruby2andor/49033.html#cutid1
[> [> [> Re: At least Cordy went out with a bang am
I right? -- buffyguy, 20:52:08 02/04/04 Wed
in the transcript he said christian kane will come back!!! wow...thats
pretty cool. i guess it gives me comfort to know that there is
something on the back burner for cordy...just in case. So is she
in this higher plane now or did she just go to where humans go
when they die???
[> [> [> [> FUTURE SPOILERS in both posts above!
(xlharris' & buffyguy's) -- anom, 21:02:51 02/04/04 Wed
Yes, beyond the spoilers for 5.12 in the subject lines...Masq,
can you change those?
[> [> [> In the Buffyverse... -- Pip, 12:25:06
02/05/04 Thu
... death isn't really that "bourne from whence no traveller
returns".
It's more a commuter suburb. :-)
[> [> Re: At least Cordy went out with a bang am I right?
-- kisstara, 23:25:10 02/04/04 Wed
I am so sad. I can't say much more. I loved watching Cordelia
grow and change. She is a hero. I am so sad.
[> [> Don't despair... -- Sofdog, 07:16:03 02/05/04
Thu
Whedon's shows have brought more people back from the dead than
soap operas. People come back all the time, it doesn't matter
how, why or when. If they want her, they'll bring her. Just like
Darla, the Master, Buffy, ,Lilah, Spike, Joyce...
[> [> Cold (dead) Comfort. -- Hauptman, 08:50:56
02/05/04 Thu
Um, I would just like to comfort you by reminding you that this
is the Buffyverse we are talking about. It would be easier to
count the people who haven't died in one way or another on these
shows. Okay, an exaggeration, but 'dead' hardly means dead to
Josh.
It was touching though. I have missed her so much.
[> That's it? (yes, spoilers up to now ...) -- Ames,
21:17:48 02/04/04 Wed
Ok, fine, Cordy had her chance to clean up the loose ends.
But really! The whole Spike resurrected/recorporialized - Lindsey
returns with mysterious agenda - Eve-il Eve's relationship with
the Senior Partners: resolved as a quick throw-away in the Cordy
episode to give her something to do???!
I was kind of expecting it to take at least a few more episodes.
I hope the producers haven't gotten some news that makes them
want to terminate the current story arc and get on with other
things in a hurry, like BtVS S7.
[> [> No way! (yes, spoilers up to now ...) -- Rob,
21:30:51 02/04/04 Wed
The whole Spike resurrected/recorporialized - Lindsey returns
with mysterious agenda - Eve-il Eve's relationship with the Senior
Partners: resolved as a quick throw-away in the Cordy episode
to give her something to do???!
I am completely unspoiled and will remain completely unspoiled,
but there is no way in hell I believe that we have seen the last
of Lindsey or Eve. Sometimes when something seems too easy, it's
because it is. The episode reminded me of "Awakening"
in how everything that's been troubling the gang that year was
solved in the space of an episode, and yet none of that happened.
We already know one thing in this episode that we thought had
happened, indeed did not. I would be willing to bet you a billion
bucks that Lindsay will be back before the season is over.
Rob, in a betting mood ;o)
[> [> [> i agree--in fact... (spoilers for 5.12 only)
-- anom, 22:20:49 02/04/04 Wed
...now I'm wondering how much of what we saw in this ep happened
at all. If Cordelia was a ghost, how could she have done all the
physical stuff, from hugging her friends to grabbing the crystal
out of the machine? Did the PTBs give her a last-minute physical
out-of-body experience? Or did all that take place in Cordelia's
& Angel's minds, linked courtesy of the PTBs? Wouldn't be the
1st time ME's pulled something like that, although they usually
resolve it within the same episode.
When Angel catches up w/the gang at the bar & gives them the bad
news, will they remember any of the events from earlier in the
ep? Hmm...if those events didn't really happen, will they even
be at the bar? Maybe he'll open his office doors & they'll all
be at their desks.
[> [> [> [> Re: i agree--in fact... (spoilers for
5.12 only) -- celticross, 22:38:52 02/04/04 Wed
My throughly sentimental take? They all remember it, and it did
actually happen. My reasons for this take? Her reappearance didn't
just renew Angel's faith in himself, it renewed the bond within
the group. Not only that, but it even brought Spike into the fold.
I'm with Rob on this one, even to the point of getting a cheerleader
outfit of my own. Now where are those pom-poms?...
[> [> [> [> on the other hand... -- anom, 23:37:46
02/04/04 Wed
Having 2nd thoughts now. Things were revealed in this ep that
neither Angel nor Cordelia could've known, like that Lindsey was
using Doyle's name, or even that he was back in the picture at
all (although the latter might follow from Cordelia's vision of
the symbols--can't figure how, but otherwise what's the point
of her having the vision?). Unless the PTBs (or whoever)
were implanting specific info, it seems like most of what we saw
must've actually happened after all. But I can't see Lindsey being
back out of the picture for good, either.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: on the other hand...
-- punkinpuss, 01:35:59 02/05/04 Thu
Things were revealed in this ep that neither Angel nor Cordelia
could've known, like that Lindsey was using Doyle's name, or even
that he was back in the picture at all
Uhm, that was the point of the Spike-Bites-Cordy scene. Lindsey
sent Spike in to kill Cordy on the false pretext that she was
possessed by some Big Bad mojo. Spike doesn't kill Cordy, but
instead realizes that she doesn't taste evil at all! Then when
Angel questions him, he reveals he has a "source" who
gets visions, named Doyle. Then, later in Angel's office, Angel
asks Spike for more info on his vision guy, and with Spike's info
(medium height, urban cowboy, hand got chopped off) they put 2
and 2 together. Bingo, Lindsey.
What's iffy is how Cordy got a vision of those glyphs if they're
supposed to make the wearer undetectable.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: on the other hand...
-- Rob, 07:07:53 02/05/04 Thu
I don't think she was a ghost. I think there is no way to define
what exactly she was using the normal metaphysics of the show.
I think the PTB brought Cordy back, in the form of a "solid"
spirit, but there's no doubt in my mind at this point that it
was Cordy, not a spirit who looked and talked like Cordy.
Because of things like the slip-up on "I fell in lov-"
and also it just wouldn't be as meaningful if it wasn't really
her. Her extremely touching apology to Wes, for example, is another
thing. If she was an illusion sent back to set Angel back on his
path, why would she need to apologize to Wes, even? I think just
as W&H brought Lilah back intact for a visit, so did the PTB for
Cordy.
Rob
[> [> [> [> [> [> spoilers for Angel's 100th,
"You're Welcome" in my above post -- Rob, 07:09:14
02/05/04 Thu
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: on the other hand...
-- dlgood, 07:48:15 02/05/04 Thu
But why are we assuming that the PtB are good?
It's no accident that we see Spike in his basement, doing the
mission "Doyle" points out to him through his visions.
Did Spike need those visions? He could have gone out and done
good on his own. He's being duped into doing missions for a boss
that was using him to further his own ends - not the good of humanity.
Just like Angel was being duped by Doyle and Cordelia's visions.
Why do we assume, given what we've seen, that the PtB were doing
this as a favor for anyone but themselves?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: on the other
hand... -- Rob, 08:21:38 02/05/04 Thu
I do not know what the PTB's intentions were, but at the same
time, I think Cordelia wasn't an illusion created by the PTB,
but Cordelia herself, meaning that no matter what their intentions
were, she was thinking for herself.
Rob
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: on the
other hand... -- dlgood, 08:34:48 02/05/04 Thu
Given what Cordelia went through at the hands of the PtB, taking
up Skip's offer and getting screwed over for it - why would Cordelia
believe in the PtB and want to serve them? Why wouldn't Cordelia
have lots of questions about the PtB herself? Because she doesn't
in this episode, and that doesn't make sense if this is an independent
Cordy.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: on
the other hand... -- Kenny, 09:10:25 02/05/04 Thu
My understanding is that Cordy's actually interacted with the
PTB since her ascension. The fact that they owed her a favor and
granted her a final opportunity to help Angel seems to bear that
out. Cordy realizes that Jasmine was a rogue and doesn't represent
all of the powers, and she should be in a better position than
anyone to make this determination. And the only thing Cordelia
went through at the hands of the PTB (plural) was the visions.
Everything else was Jasmine.
I don't have a problem with the Powers. I'm not convinced they
have some grand plan and that Angel is a pawn. I find it very
likely that they simply want to help people, but they can't directly
(Jasmine being an example of why it's a bad thing for them to
do so). Many of the people Angel was sent to help via the visions
had something going on that paralleled Angel's life, and he was
helped as much as the people in the visions (sometimes more).
And now, with "Thank You" being the exception, they
believe they've helped him enough that he doesn't need the visions.
I doubt we'll get another vision girl. They helped Angel connect
with humanity, and now they're letting him run solo. That they
want him at W&H, as others have noted, just demonstrates to
me that they trust him to do good there, but their role in his
life, by-and-large, is over.
[> [> [> [> [> on the *other* other hand (anyone
wanna lend me a hand?)... -- anom, 12:50:08 02/05/04 Thu
3rd thoughts now, & me without a 3rd hand! Did anyone else think
there were too many flip moments in this episode (& I don't mean
in the big fight scene)? "'I can torture her--I'm evil!'
'OK!'" "'I'm not sending anyone I care about.' 'I'll
go.' 'OK!'" Casual racquetball-w/the-devil banter (Gunn may
play golf w/colleagues regardless of their good/evil status, but
Angel? This may be more an indication of how he feels about negotiating
w/evil). And what may be most telling, letting Sebassis' minions
take his escaped slave back to him w/no interference as Lorne
makes uncomfortable remarks about beatings. (OK, I liked the toner
reference--throws new light on the 1st bleeding-eyed killer in
Destiny! Maybe if the slave hadn't been draining the toner, he
wouldn't have gone over the edge....)
Rob, I didn't mean I thought that wasn't really Cordelia. I just
thought she might be having an "Incident at Owl Creek Bridge"/"The
Secret Miracle" moment (stories, one by Ambrose Bierce & one
by Jorge Luis Borges, in which someone about to die gets a last
chance to do something important to him), but in her case it was
shared w/Angel. What I'm questioning is whether it was shared
w/anyone else. At one point I even wondered if the whole thing
took place btwn. his being told "It's Cordelia" & hearing
what the news about her was. But then I remembered the whole group
was in his office when he got the 1st call but not when he got
the 2nd one. Then again, maybe that was a metaphor for how alone
he felt, & when he hangs up they'll all be sitting there waiting
to hear what the phone call was about...but that just wasn't shown?
OK, really confused now....
"Uhm, that was the point of the Spike-Bites-Cordy scene."
Um, punkinpuss, that was my point. If the ep's events take
place only in the minds of Angel & Cordelia, things like Lindsey's
role wouldn't have been revealed, because neither Angel nor Cordelia
had any way to know them (they weren't revealed in her vision).
We've seen an experience shared by 2 minds before, complete w/coma
for 1 participant, w/Buffy & Faith. But the important info given
to Buffy was something Faith already knew--& gave her directly,
no 3rd parties involved. Besides, I doubt Spike trusts "Doyle"
enough at this point to bite Cordelia on his say-so. But Angel
might well believe he would.
[> [> [> [> [> [> A couple replies --
Finn Mac Cool, 14:26:51 02/05/04 Thu
First, Spike clearly hasn't put total trust in "Doyle",
otherwise he wouldn't have done the blood test. After all, on
the chance that Cordelia was a demon, it wouldn't do to tip her
off.
Second, are we sure the slave is a sentient being? It could simply
be a slave in the same way that horses, trained doves, or guard
dogs are.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: on the *other* other
hand (anyone wanna lend me a hand?)... -- punkinpuss, 15:40:41
02/05/04 Thu
Um, punkinpuss, that was my point. If the ep's events take
place only in the minds of Angel & Cordelia, things like Lindsey's
role wouldn't have been revealed, because neither Angel nor Cordelia
had any way to know them (they weren't revealed in her vision).
We've seen an experience shared by 2 minds before, complete w/coma
for 1 participant, w/Buffy & Faith. But the important info given
to Buffy was something Faith already knew--& gave her directly,
no 3rd parties involved.
Oookay, sorry, that wasn't clear to me in your last post. Well,
one of the problems with making all the events of "You're
Welcome" a mindgame involving Angel, Cordy, and a higher
power/senior partner to be named later is that there aren't any
visual clues to suggest that. Are there?
In Act 1, we see Cordy pulling the curtain back on another figure
who must be Coma!Cordy. That scene only makes sense after the
reveal of the last scene. It doesn't need to be there if it's
all a cosmic Jedi mind wipe.
I've no problem believing Cordy is really Cordy AND is also still
comatose in a hospital bed. After all, the whole point of bringing
Cordy back is a double-edged sword - Angel gets the reminder he
needs that he can go on and at the same time, is reminded of how
lost and alone he is with her death. The Powers That Screw You,
if they're the ones behind this, are manipulating him, but to
what end? Does Cordy play into this? Is she another pawn being
used? Why wouldn't TPTB want Angel to leave W&H? Unless he
serves a purpose by being there.
On that third hand, if it IS a shared vision for them, then the
effect needs a cause. Or at least a premise, which would suggest
a third party influence. For the Buffy/Faith dream, we already
knew that Slayers have prophetic dreams so it wasn't a big step
to make it a shared dream experience, connecting them. In this
case, if the events of "You're Welcome" aren't real,
then I'd expect we'd get a reset that shows that. Also if the
events are manipulated, then somebody other than Angel or Cordy
had to set it in place and that means neither of them required
knowledge of what Lindsey, Eve or others are doing. Somebody else
is pulling the strings.
Logic problems in the Jossverse are a bitch. Does this make any
sense?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Cordelia told Angel
to make his own mind -- Finn Mac Cool, 18:51:37 02/05/04
Thu
She didn't tell him to leave Wolfram & Hart or to stay. She waited
for Angel to make his own decision and then supported him when
he did.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: on the *other* other
hand (anyone wanna lend me a hand?)... -- Kenny, 15:49:21
02/05/04 Thu
I think the Cordy/Wes interaction in research mode was too important
for it to be only Cordy/Angel realizing/remembering it/it. This
wasn't just about Cordy helping Angel, this was about Cordy being
able to move on.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: on the *other* other
hand (anyone wanna lend me a hand?)... -- punkinpuss, 21:26:40
02/05/04 Thu
Another thing: what about all the Lindsey/Spike and Lindsey/Eve
scenes? What would be the point of showing these if everything
after Angel gets the call is a sham? Especially since those scenes
reference events from previous eps (Psycho Slayer chopping off
Spike's hands, Eve plotting with Lindsey) that lead directly to
new developments (Lindsey sharing his own hand story, Eve worrying
about what Cordy's return will do to their plans, Lindsey siccing
Spike on Cordy).
Now, that's not to say that Cordy's return isn't entirely on the
up and up. Whatever higher power is behind it, they'd never be
so obvious as to have Cordy tell Angel to do something specific.
It's much more fun to set Angel up to do it all to himself, make
him his own worst enemy. That's the Senior Partners m.o. as well.
Why destroy Angel when they can just hand him the opportunity
to do it to himself? Isn't that always the way with capricious
higher powers?
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: on the *other* other
hand (anyone wanna lend me a hand?)... -- CW, 06:31:37
02/06/04 Fri
We know from episodes like "Normal Again" that Joss
isn't perfect about cleaning up the messes he creates nor is he
interested in being perfect about it. But usually in stories like
"...Owl Creek Bridge" the readers/audience knows the
whole story at the end. I think we were told the whole story.
Angel and the gang went to the hospital room (in my mind not comatose
Cordy's real hospital room) and found a healthy corporeal Cordy
ready to do her last good deed. Stranger things have happened
in the Jossworld. ;o)
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Toner joke
-- punkinpuss, 14:27:11 02/06/04 Fri
I know...they're both Cordy!
Okay, I'm slow, but the pennies just dropped for me.
The scene where Cordy gets off the elevator at W&H? She turns
around and sees the Archduke Sebassis' slave from "Life of
the Party" whom we're told has been hiding out and eating
the toner in the copy machines. I couldn't figure out what that
scene was for. Why did it need to be there?
Cordy is a copy.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> As the strings
are pulled -- Ann, 15:05:24 02/06/04 Fri
That is very good and either Cordy, or the copy, are slaves to
the PTB and on their leash like the slave was on his leash, on
the puppet strings of his master.
I also enjoyed all the scenes that had things being pulled back
and revealed: the hospital screen, slaves, the elevator doors,
Spike behind the tv, Lindsay back to where ever. Physical revelations
everywhere. The "strings" are being pulled along with
the set, the characters. Great stuff.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Toner joke
-- Jane, 21:45:06 02/06/04 Fri
By George, I think you've got it! I too wondered why the toner
eating slave was there - now it is obvious. You're right, Punkinpuss,
Cordy was duplicated. Good thought.:)
I loved the episode, it was wonderful to see spunky Cordy again.
She will be missed.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Also...
-- Fleem, 06:34:58 02/07/04 Sat
Pointing up, once again, the loss of distinction between black
& white (but wait -- the white room is empty!). Producing more
of AtS's typical murky grays. Not clear who's good and who's evil
here, and "opposites" are shading into one another --
Spike loses the hero's mantle, but Angel still hasn't firmly put
it back on.
Doyle appears, from the good old days when "do-what's-right"
was abundant, but, since then, clarity has been deliberately drained
away.
Maybe finding the source of the clarity leak (a minion of evil,
but not evil itself...hmm, makes me think of Lindsey) will allow
everyone to re-orient.
[> A big lie? Spoilers for 5.12 -- Dlgood, 21:19:00
02/04/04 Wed
Didn't it feel like we'd been missing the real Cordy for years
and years, and we get her back in tonight's episode for a delicious
moment. She fights, she's snarky, she has trusty visions from
the "Powers that Be", sets Angel back on his path, and
even shows lots of cleavage for us to ogle. And then she's snatched
away. What a send-off!
Except that it's all a fantasy, and her mention of being a gift
from the "Powers that Be" was the final clue.
The real Cordelia Chase never got out of that bed, and everything
we saw, actually happened without her there. Take her away, let
the characters work those scenes out in their heads without her,
allow for Wesley's magic to interrupt the machine - and is Cordy
Chase necessary at all. This isn't about her story. And while
it's exciting to see her, there's little of interest in this perfected
version of her character. It's about everybody getting to see
the Cordelia Chase they need to see, MoG and fans alike, and letting
her go.
She's this Mary Sue, Platonic Ideal version of Cordelia Chase,
who shows up and Jiminy Crickets each of the MoG with their anxieties,
convincing them that they're doing the right thing at W&H and
that they can recapture the innocence of S1 - when Angel, Doyle,
Cordy, and Wes believed everything they thought came from the
PtB.
But that was all manipulation from Jasmine. It's nice to see her
again, and it's nice to have that fantasy. But it wasn't real.
And IMHO this is manipulation once again.
We still don't know what game Lindsey and Even are playing, who
for, together or apart, and what any of this means. So what's
the real story, what's the goal, and who's pulling the strings?
[> [> Re: A big lie? Spoilers for 5.12 -- heywhyont,
06:20:15 02/05/04 Thu
To me, Cordelia asked the Powers That Be to give her a chance
to remind the man she loves that he is a Champion, he doesn't
quit, in the end he will save the day. They granted her this one
last chance because of all the work she did for them. To me that
was Cordelia. She knew her time was limited, she completed her
mission. She set Angel back on track. One last time she was helping
the "helpless", Angel. Angel has hope once more, He
admits at the end that he is not back but he knows he is at least
back on the road and will be able to make it.
Cordelia's talk with Wes is what cemented to me that it was Cordelia
we saw. She was making amends before her end. Her rewatching Doyle's
tape, her anger at Lindsay using Doyle's name, her attitude towards
Eve especially when she heard Angel slept with her, her willingness
to have Eve tortured. Those are actions of a real person not an
idealized version (at least in my opinion). Cordy on a mission,
really right then and there Lindsay should of known to give up.
[> [> [> Re: A big lie? Spoilers for 5.12 -- dlgood,
07:44:55 02/05/04 Thu
To me, Cordelia asked the Powers That Be to give her a chance
to remind the man she loves that he is a Champion, he doesn't
quit, in the end he will save the day. They granted her this one
last chance because of all the work she did for them.
And to me, that's a pleasant fantasy - the idealized dream version
of what we wish the world would be like. But the PtB have never
been in Angel's corner. It's all a big lie. He's not the chosen
champion, so much as he is their dupe. He never needed the visions
to do good - only to do jobs higher ups wanted him to do - and
until Jasmine, he'd never really questioned their credibility.
Spike, in this episode exemplifies that. When he's sitting around
waiting for one of "Doyle's" visions. Angel was just
as much as a dupe as Spike was.
[> [> No, it's not a lie. And best of all... (***SPOILERS***
for * You're Welcome *) -- OnM, 06:30:17 02/05/04 Thu
...it actually has had multiple precedent within the Buffyverse.
One key line (from prior eps) to keep in mind...
"[His/Her] contract extends beyond death."
Referring to first Holland Manners, then of course Lilah.
I happened to be spoiled on this ep, and I admit that I was absolutely
baffled as to how they were going to resolve the contradictions
inherent in having Cordy never awaken, but still somehow be there
in a corporeal fashion, which the unfolding of the story made
plain was the actual sitch. And I also admit that I didn't figure
it out until after the very last scene, and then it clicked. Whoa!
My congrats to ME for pulling this scheme off-- it was some great
work.
[> [> [> Heh! I just posted that same thing as a reply
to anom! -- Rob, 07:11:41 02/05/04 Thu
[> [> Re: A big lie? Spoilers for 5.12 -- Pony, 07:31:50
02/05/04 Thu
I'm puzzled why anyone accepts the idea of a vision or the Powers
That Be after the events of last year and this season. This episode
was a nice, almost too perfect, send-off of for a beloved character
that I don't think will be undercut by future revelations. I do
kind of hope it is though because I've been reading Angel's desire
for the return of his destiny this season as being handled as
ironic. I do note that Cordelia's "awakening" was linked
to Angel's announcement that he was quitting W&H and that the
end result of Cordy's involvement was to have him stay at his
job.
[> [> [> A bang, or a whimper? SPOILERS for "You're
Welcome" -- Arethusa, 08:10:18 02/05/04 Thu
I noted the same thing-when Angel said he was quitting, up popped
Cordelia, keeping him from walking out the door. And now he's
going to stay, because he can win this thing and get his reward
in the end? So now TPTB are back in the picture, helping Angel,
whose belief that working at W&H is for the good is revitalized,
not to mention his belief in the shanshu.
Oh, and Spike was just prancing around in the mistaken belief
that he was being heroic.
Why did Cordy have to die? Why couldn't she have gone to Nepal
like everyone else, or joined Buffy, which really would have been
a kick in the guts for Angel?
And is Fred making sheep's eyes at Wesley now? (Who does look
incredibly hot, by the way, who could blame the girl, but she's
never shown an iterest in him before.)
And what about Connor and the mindwipe? Wes has had two hints
now that Angel's hiding something, and he's not the sort of man
to let such things slide.
[> [> [> [> And one more thing -- Arethusa,
08:19:13 02/05/04 Thu
Lindsey's entire motivation to kill Angel was that Angel took
his place? Lindsey chose to leave W&H because he couldn't stomach
them any more. He was out of it, his own man. If he just wanted
Angel dead, there are quicker and easier ways of killing a man,
especially when you're covered with protection spells. When I'm
confused about the motivation of a character (in this case the
Senior Partners), I look at what they actually do. Angel has now
been lulled/seduced ito a (false?) sense of security, his enemies
gone and his mission at W&H sanctified by TPTB.
The bit about the Archduke's slave was funny though, although
I don't like to think about what will happen to it now. And I
guess the lack of toner is explained.
[> [> [> [> Re: A bang, or a whimper? SPOILERS
for "You're Welcome" -- Rob, 08:26:04 02/05/04
Thu
Why did Cordy have to die? Why couldn't she have gone to Nepal
like everyone else, or joined Buffy, which really would have been
a kick in the guts for Angel?
Because if Cordy did leave Angel only because she disapproved
of his new life, he would have left Wolfram & Hart--especially
after he said he couldn't do this without her--and all those shiny
new sets would have been all for naught. This is the only way
I can imagine that she could have realistically left the show,
without Angel leaving W&H as well.
Rob
[> [> [> [> [> You're probably right. Spoilers
for YW -- Arethusa, 08:33:52 02/05/04 Thu
I just hate to see it. Poor Cordy, who put all her faith in TPTB
and was killed by one them. They owed Angel a life and so gave
him Connor. They owed Cordy a life too, why didn't they give her
Eve's (recently vacated) body so we wouldn't have to mourn another
dead soldier?
Oh, well. That's what fanfic is for.
[> [> [> [> Re: A bang, or a whimper? SPOILERS
for "You're Welcome" -- Pony, 08:29:54 02/05/04
Thu
I also noted Gunn's comment that everybody got something when
they joined W&H - it's a repeat of the line in Unleashed where
Wes noted that he got a pen. Is someone going to start wondering
what everyone got in the deal? Hmm.
The Fred look was very weird. Especially since Wes was just completing
a spell that allowed someone to be seen. A side effect? Or am
I just paranoid?
In any case I'll admit that I have huge problem with the Powers
That Be and the idea that some people are meant to be heroes and
some are not, and the need for constant reinforcement of said
innate worth, so take my comments with a generous helping of salt.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Will the real Powers please
stand up (SPOILERS for "You're Welcome") -- sdev,
09:05:26 02/05/04 Thu
I agree about the need for scepticism about either the PTB or
if Cordelia was even acting through the PTB.
How are we now to view Andrew as Buffy's surrogate in condemnation
of Angel's new role at W&H. Was that message wrong? There
is a direct contradiction between Cordelia's and Buffy's view
of Angel.
Further hasn't Season 3 and 4's Cordelia lesson taught us anything?
Doing deals with the devil, even for the ultimate end of doing
good (read Cordelia's visions) is dangerous and can bite back.
Cordelia's return should be a reminder of that. It's what turned
her evil and ended in her death. I don't trust Cordelia's message
and Angel's resulting moment of self-congratulation.
[> The Girl in the Bed -- Ace
of Sevens, 01:12:32 02/05/04 Thu
When the gang shows up to see Cordelia, there's a girl in the
bed. They don't see her face. This presumably was the actual Cordelia.
The Cordelia who appeared was an idealized version of her, thus
her being in such great shape, even though she hasn't moved in
about 8 months.
[> [> Good call! I missed that, but I think you are absolutely
right. -- OnM, 06:34:49 02/05/04 Thu
[> [> Agreed. -- Sofdog, 07:08:11 02/05/04 Thu
As soon as I realized she was dead, it was clear that she must
be the girl in the hospital.
[> [> [> FRUSTRATION -- Claudia, 07:50:09 02/05/04
Thu
You know, I was watching last night's episode, enjoying Cordelia's
reunion with the Fang Gang and her subsequent apprehension over
their new positions with Wolfram & Hart . . . when I found myself
coming upon the scene with Cordelia and Wes. And that is when
my enjoyment of the episode stopped.
Why? Because for some reason I cannot fathom, Wes remembers his
affair with Lilah Morgan. Despite the fact that he has no memories
of Connor - whose presence led him into Lilah's arms in the first
place.
Now, I had brought up this fact when Wes mentioned chopping up
Lilah in "Lineage", some five episodes ago. And I was
told that Mutant Enemy would eventually explain this. Well, you
know what? They haven't. I also suspect that they never will.
I suspect that this is simply a ploy for the writers not to have
Wes and Lilah's affair hanging over their heads, while they emesh
themselves in the "glory" of Wes' love for Fred in upcoming
episodes.
Something similar has happened before - namely Spike's friendship
with Dawn. Although I never openly complained about it, I was
among those who were frustrated by ME's handling of the pair's
friendship. They ignored it throughtout most of Season 6 and only
brought it back as a plot device for the attempted rape scene
between Buffy and Spike in "Seeing Red". After that,
they had an excuse to end Spike and Dawn's friendship for good.
And now I see the same thing happening over the whole Wes/Lilah/Connor/Fred
thing. Despite all logic, ME has decided to allow Wes to remember
his affair with Lilah without explaining HOW he remembered . .
. all so they can prepare us for his upcoming romance with Fred.
This is just the latest incident of frustration that has greeted
me, while watching some of my favorite TV shows. A similar frustration
had already led me to abandon CHARMED back in Season 5. I've been
ignoring FRIENDS nearly all season long. And I'm growing frustrated
with "24" and their handling of the David Palmer character,
this season. But after the Cordelia/Wes scene in last night's
ANGEL and reading further spoilers, I don't think I want to bother
with the rest of the season. At least not now.
[> [> [> [> Are there future spoilers in this post,
Claudia??? -- Arethusa, 08:23:39 02/05/04 Thu
[> [> [> [> [> Frustration, indeed. -- Rob,
08:27:56 02/05/04 Thu
[> [> [> [> [> I think it's just spec. --
Doug, 08:31:25 02/05/04 Thu
[> [> [> [> [> [> Ok, so I was wrong
-- Doug, 09:03:56 02/05/04 Thu
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Are there future spoilers
in this post, Claudia??? -- Claudia, 08:40:23 02/05/04
Thu
Gee, I'm sorry that I forgot to post SPOILER.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Sarcasm noted. Arethusa...
-- Random, 08:59:00 02/05/04 Thu
...was pointing out a very important issue. This isn't and never
has been a spoiler board. So spoilers -- especially future
spoilers -- need to be marked very clearly. If it helps, Rufus
has an excellent place for those at Spoiler Trollops (link at
the top of the Board.) We take our spoilers, and frequent desire
not to be spoiled, seriously here.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Don't get so mean about
it! Not marking spoilers is just disrespectful...admit it.
-- Nino, 13:28:10 02/05/04 Thu
[> [> [> [> Future SPOILERS in Claudia's post.
-- Arethusa, 08:44:24 02/05/04 Thu
[> [> [> [> Re: FRUSTRATION -- Katrina, 09:06:41
02/05/04 Thu
Whilst I was ranting on this topic last night, my husband suggested
that part of the memory-wipe involves a spell that would keep
the characters from thinking about the things they've forgotten.
So that whenever Wesley remembers Lilah, or Fred and Charles remember
their relationship, they only remember the outlines, and don't
think about the specifics, because if they thought about the specifics,
they'd realize there are gaps. In other words, Wesley may remember
that at some point there was (vague) friction with Angel and he
met up with Lilah in a bar, and Fred and Charles may realize they
had some (vague) conflict that led them to break up... I thought
that was pretty clever and told him he should work for the writing
staff, because it would have only taken them a second to toss
in some kind of mystical whatzit that could clarify some of our
confusion. It doesn't quite seem fair when the audience has to
finish the writing...
Obviously I share your frustration, but I was at least happy that
Cordelia used the term, what was it, "mind-rape." I
was like, thank you! I've missed Ms. Tell It Like It Is.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: FRUSTRATION -- Claudia,
10:13:25 02/05/04 Thu
Yes, I also liked Cordy's comment about the mind-rape of the others.
But my frustration over Wes' revelation that he remembered his
affair with Lilah, still remains. I realize that ME is capable
of minor glitches in their story arcs and characterizations, sometimes.
But this was a major blooper committed on the scale of those that
have appeared on shows like CHARMED. A blooper, I suspect, they
have no intention of explaining.
[> [> [> [> [> [> I just don't think there's
any need to explain it -- Finn Mac Cool, 14:22:33 02/05/04
Thu
To me, the answer seems quite obvious: as I and several other
posters have mentioned, it's probably like Ben/Glory. Everyone
forgot seeing Ben change into Glory and had a sort of mental fog
which stopped them from realizing their memories didn't make sense.
The other option is that there are holes in everyone's memories
that they can become aware of, except none of them have sat down
and actually done enough reminiscing to realize there's anything
odd. For example, while Wes remembers Lilah, it's probably quite
rare that he'd feel the need to go over in his head how he and
Lilah got together in the first place. For example, suppose Connor
was instrumental in one of them getting a new apartment; how often
do people actually think about the process which lead to obtaining
their apartment? Not that often, I bet. Likewise, the former AI
gang won't realize their memories are missing until they actually
put some deep thought into what lead to other events happening.
Here are two theories explaining the mind wipe that seem to work
perfectly, as far as I can see. It doesn't take that much thought
to come up with them; perhaps it does require a little effort
on the audience's part, but only the real fans will be bothered
by it, and they're the ones most likely to put a little extra
thought into the show.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Don't Buy It
-- Claudia, 15:45:48 02/05/04 Thu
Sorry, I don't buy it. I can understand how memories of Dawn was
inserted into the Scoobies' pysche. But how do you explain that
Wes has memories of his affair of Lilah, but not of Connor? Especially
since Connor's presence eventually led to the affair?
Doesn't make sense. I think that ME screwed up and no one wants
to admit it.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Take a good
look at Wes -- Arethusa, 16:00:40 02/05/04 Thu
when Cordy says she hopes they kicked Jasmine's ass. Angel glances
at Wes, but Wes just looks confused, as if he can't quite remember
how they got rid of Cordy's little hitchhiker.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Spoilers
for You're Welcome above -- Arethusa, 16:02:05 02/05/04
Thu
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Exactly
what I was thinking! -- Rob, 18:58:38 02/05/04 Thu
He had a moment where his face showed him about to mull over exactly
what happened re: Jasmine, and then he stopped, as the spell did
its work.
Rob
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re:
Exactly what I was thinking! -- Claudia, 07:57:22 02/06/04
Fri
"He had a moment where his face showed him about to mull
over exactly what happened re: Jasmine, and then he stopped, as
the spell did its work.
Rob"
Okay, so why didn't the spell do its job when he remembered his
affair with Lilah? An affair that had its origin in Wes' kidnapping
of Connor.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
Because... -- Rob, 08:25:38 02/06/04 Fri
...it only deleted Connor, not any effects he might have
had on the world. The effects are still there. They just can't
remember how things like Angel and Wes' rift, Wes' affair with
Lilah, etc. came to be.
Rob
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Take
a good look at Wes? -- Claudia, 07:54:32 02/06/04 Fri
"when Cordy says she hopes they kicked Jasmine's ass. Angel
glances at Wes, but Wes just looks confused, as if he can't quite
remember how they got rid of Cordy's little hitchhiker."
Wes has no memories of how Jasmine was killed. Or that Connor
was the one who killed her. Okay? What are you trying to get at?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Answer
(major season 4 spoiler) -- Seven, 09:54:11 02/08/04 Sun
Date Posted: 07:48:34 02/08/04 Sun
Author: Seven
Angel explained that Conner killed Jasmine at the very end of
"Peace Out"
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I never compared
Connor to Dawn -- Finn Mac Cool, 18:44:58 02/05/04 Thu
I compared him to Glory/Ben. Give me one reason why the mind wipe
can't work in exactly the same way as the spell Glory cast. Just
one.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Or .
. . -- Claudia, 08:03:28 02/06/04 Fri
"I compared him to Glory/Ben. Give me one reason why the
mind wipe can't work in exactly the same way as the spell Glory
cast. Just one."
Or . . . the ME writers may have committed a big blooper by having
Wes remember his affair with Lilah. That's always a possibility.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> That's
a possibility. A possibility's not a reason, though -- Finn
Mac Cool, 09:11:01 02/06/04 Fri
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
Re: That's a possibility. A possibility's not a reason, though
-- Claudia, 13:01:59 02/06/04 Fri
Are you saying that I have to accept as fact that Wes' memory
of his affair with Lilah is not a mistake on ME's part?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
[> I'm saying there's nothing to invalidate my theory
-- Finn Mac Cool, 14:27:02 02/06/04 Fri
Granted, you're theory hasn't been invalidated yet, either. Assuming
you're able to accept the Ben/Glory as a feasible possibility,
though, I can't understand why you would instead choose to think
more poorly of the writers rather than more favorably.
[> Dimension Jump (spoilers for ANGEL 5.12, not Red Dwarf
4.5) -- cjl, 09:41:58 02/05/04 Thu
"He's jumped dimensions."
Did anybody else see the teaser (gruesome as it was), as a warped
tribute to another creative talent who's no longer with the show?
The ritual slaughter of five nuns sounds like something out of
"Miracles."
Greenway = Greenwalt?
[> [> Re: Dimension Jump (no spoilers) -- LittleBit,
13:54:27 02/05/04 Thu
Heee... this actually relates to one of the things that happened
when the guys from Angel were on Ryan Seacrist yesterday. RS was
doing a sequence of 'clues' for the audience to guess who the
suprise guest is for next week. When the guys were on, a skeleton
leg was brought out...everything from the femur down, fully articulated,
and handed it to JM to hold up. His comment: "This is all
that's left of David Greenwalt"
[> [> [> This guy might know something about it
-- Ann, 18:59:59 02/05/04 Thu
http://www.bodychangers.com/dgreenwalt_inter.shtml
Episode 16 - Shells (Asking
for spoilers) -- Patrick Lewis, 20:32:46 02/04/04 Wed
Does anyone know who the guy from Sunnydale, who is supposed to
come in ep 17, is? Would it be Willow?
Plus, do you really think that Fred is going to die or rather
that Amy Acker is simply gonna play Illyria till the end of the
season?
Replies:
[> Re: Episode 16 - Shells (Asking for spoilers) --
radioreverie, 23:09:58 02/04/04 Wed
I think it would be interesting if Fred became Illyria, permanently,
but she became an ally, maybe even a friend.
That would be something they've never really done before...
Also a rather novel way of having a character's direction completely
shift.
[> There is a link to the Trollop board on the above right.
(Asking for spoilers) -- Rufus, 02:57:23 02/05/04 Thu
That's were some of the spoilers are...I also share a board where
you have to register which has more which is called Spoiler
Crypt.
[> MAJOR FUTURE SPOILERS in first post (thanks a bunch)
-- KdS, 07:49:14 02/05/04 Thu
And then there was one...
(spoilers) -- Billy, Wolf Breeze, 00:12:18 02/05/04 Thu
And then there was one... (spoilers)
This is going to be a ramblings of BtVS 1-7 and Ats 1-5...
I have not seen every episode of Angel.
Mainly overview from Damage and 100th Angel ep.
Maybe I should explain the title,
from the first episode of this explosive "cult" creation
the only one who remains in the series in Angle, from the base
six (B,X,W,C,G,&A- okay hes a special guest still a main part
of it) to one (Angel). Otherwise they have all left this screen.
And to mention... nice admiration of the two supporting actors
who help create the series in its 100th episode.
Cordy and Doyle... nice digging through the archives to display
Doyle in such a commemorative way (be the actor has died).
And then Angel said the word which Doomed Cordy, we just got you
back after losing you for over 1.5 years.
The first ?casualty?... then Cordy goes into how she gets it now,
that he did everything he had to do, even die, so Angle could
go on with his Champion mission. !D*MN! you Cordy, must you die?
yes, you must, for in death you motivate.
The rest of the episode Cordy is making every amend possible and
doing what she wouldn't have done on the otherwise, talking with
Wes, both on magic and her of last year. She kissed Angel and
yet stopped herself from saying "the man I fell in love with"
to please the many agitated fans.
When her mission was complete she noted that she got her champion
back on track, and now she was done.
Thanks to tPtB to release her from her coma to redirect that which
was lost.
Nice episode all aspects, characters, dialogue, framing 'n' editing,
and closure all around.
The scene when Angle is getting his ass whipped by Lindsey seemed
reminiscent of Buffy and Angelus in the courtyard of B2.22 Becoming,
Part II. At your darkest hour, all you got is you, and that is
enough (thanks to certain people).
On to Damage...
I think reflections should cover the ideas and concepts of this
episode.
Again, reminiscent of B5.07 Fools for LoveÉ the episode
was about telling people what they didnÕt want to hear.
Where as Damage was about showing people what they didnÕt
want to see, and it had reflective properties.
Spike was shown he wasnÕt the champion he thought he was.
He was shown that he was more evil than he expected to be, he
was shown the result of his evil acts.
He was shown what it was to have a soul and feel guilty for his
action of the past
Angel was shown that the face of who he was working for was an
evil one, no matter how much he was trying to change it.
He was also shown the only opinion that could matter to him about
what he was doingÉ BuffyÕs.
The last scene with Angle and SpikeÉ
Angel reflects on why he is the way he is with his soul, he indulged
in the evil and the repercussions of his actions
Spike saw and understood AngelÕs pain and guilt for the
first time. Spike saw his guilt.
Dana, the Vampire Slayer, is a reflection of the negative effects
of the Sunnydale Surprise.
Just a noteÉ So S7 Buffy evil was creating and building
an army under the noses of The Scoobies, In the Hellmouth.
And from the number of young girls appearing from behind piers
and Andrew, The Scoobies have created and now building an army
not just in one area, but now everywhere evil residesÉ
globally.
Okay, sleep now, ramblings over. Incoherence probably continues.
Replies:
[> ME and death (spoilers all seasons) -- Briar Rose,
16:21:44 02/05/04 Thu
I have always appreciated the way that ME allows all of their
"good guy" characters to die noble, meaningful deaths.
Even the ones that don't appear so at first are usually turned
out to be, simply by their dignity while dying.
This started with Angel's death. He receieved his soul before
he was sent to hell. So in a way, he was absolved and (maybe more
importantly) knew he'd bene absolved and that Buffy did love him
before he crossed into hell.
This continued with Joyce in "The Body." They did not
take Joyce out when she was acting so awfully to Buffy and basically
dealing with fear and pain every second. They waitied until she
was (as far as anyone knew, anyway) healthy and capable of helping
Buffy and Dawn with day to day life before they let her simply
Go. No blood, no violence of the demonic attack variety. She just
went.
Of course, one of the most wonderful deaths was Buffy's in "The
Gift." An act of enormous heroism that was undertaken for
(arguably) the most highly respected reason in the Universe: For
Love. And not just any physical love, Love for humanity as well
as family.
Tara died a violent death, to be sure. But Tara was allowed to
go (much as Joyce did) with the dignity of a death that wasn't
overly ugly and long suffered. She turned from the window to touch
Willow and simply looked down and saw the blood and died.
Anya went out the fighter that she always was. Not only did she
die honorably, but she died saving someone that it truly wasn't
her job, let alone her normal compunction, to save.... Andrew
is not the normal "beloved" to Anya, so her act becomes
even more heroic and selfless than it would have been otherwise.
With AtS, it has continued to be the same;
Doyle went out giving his life to prevent a repeat of a former
wrong doen to his own Clan. Hos last act gifting the Fang Gang
with his clairvoyance by passing it to Cordy in a kiss. His gift
would still help people even after he was gone, so his death not
only had meaning, it was a continuing testimonial to how much
he cared for the world.
Now Cordy is gone. And as the past deaths that ME has meeted out
to their Good Guys, she died with heroism and the chance to help
those she loved to make the most of their lives here. Cordy was
able to save Angel, not only from Wolfram and Hart, but from Himself.
It was a fitting end to Cordelia Chase's run with both shows.
And I have to commend ME for their continuing respect for their
Good Guy characters. Most of all, in their deaths.
[> [> "You're Welcome!" -- Mr. Obvious
Speaks (Wolf Breeze), 20:18:11 02/05/04 Thu
Okay, I'm just going to say the obvious bits...
The 100th episode is titled "You're Welcome"
Obviously Cordelia's last words...
Is this in response to the full page ad that was placed in "The
Hollywood Reporter"?
Nice "Thank You" "You're Welcome"exchange
between Angel, Cordelia, and the audience in the last 60 seconds
of the episode.
1. The fans said "Thank You!" for Buffy and Angel with
the ad,
2. The creative team which brings you Buffy and Angel says "You're
Welcome!" with the episode title
3. Cordelia vocalizes that message of "You're
Welcome!"
4. As well as tells "You're Welcome!" to Angel before
he realizes that he owes her,
5. Angel says "Thank You!" to Cordelia
6. With that same breathy (breath = spirit) "Thank
you!", Angel
says "Thank You!" to the fans who help build that which
is celebrating 7 complete seasons (144 episodes) and 5 seasons
(100 episode )spin-off.
7. The fan in turn say "You're Welcome!" by patronizing
the the advertisements that sponsor the show.
Done.
I drank way too much last night. Sorry my original post is so
incoherent and thought shattered. Much fun was had. Curse the
people who like to buy me drinks... (NO, I LOVE MY ENABLERS!)
Celebrating (job/money/insurance/etc) and mourning (Cordelia)
was thoughly exercised with Red Headed Sluts, JD 'n' Cherry Cokes,
and Bailey Irish Cream!
Thanks to Briar for responding and filling out an aspect I had
commented on.
~Billy, Wolf Breeze
~ Opening credits: night, Cordelia's funeral
Cordy -- Patrick,
02:04:42 02/05/04 Thu
After tonights episode I went out for a night of drinking and
dancing. On my way home I reflected on tonights episode and found
myself saddned by the abrupt exit of Cordelia. Have I gotten so
in to the lives of fictional people that I could actually mourn
the passing of one of Joss Wheadons greatest creations? The answer
apparently is yes, I know we will all miss Cordy and the joy she
brought us. Thank You Joss for bringing her into our lives as
fictional as she is she will be missed.
Replies:
[> Re: Cordy -- Katrina, 08:25:26 02/05/04 Thu
I too had a few drinks. :) Cordy was my all-time favorite Buffyverse
character for many, many reasons, and I haven't really felt the
same about the show since they kind of took her off track. If
they had to dump her, I'm glad they gave her a dignified send-off...And
at least, as long as there are bitchy women in the world who still
try to do the right thing, her spirit will live on.
[> Re: Cordy -- tam, 10:02:17 02/05/04 Thu
Cordy is why I watched Buffy. Her comment to Willow about the
"softer side of Sears" in Welcome to the Hell Mouth
took me back to high school in ways that no reunion ever would
or could. I went to school with that girl, hell, sometimes I was
a bitch enough to be that girl. One of my favorite characters
and thank God for videos and DVD's.
[> spoilers again (5.12 only)...great ep, but please, all,
don't get so excited you forget to mark them -- anom, tired
of spoiler patrol, 14:49:47 02/05/04 Thu
Keep your shirt on you Tiny
Texan......spoilers for Angel 5.12 You're Welcome -- Rufus,
03:20:18 02/05/04 Thu
"Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound,
That saved a wretch like me....
I once was lost but now am found,
Was blind, but now, I see."
Ever been lost? That feeling of being somewhere that isn't where
you should be but not knowing where to go to find where you should
be. That's Angel and the rest of his gang (Spike included). Things
were simple in the days where Doyle was the link to the Powers.
Cordy, Angel, Doyle....that's how it started but not how "You're
Welcome" ends. The footage of Doyle is bitter-sweet in that
Cordy knows exactly where she is, and before Angel knows, exactly
what she has to do. We see Doyle and a Cordy who understands what
Doyle was doing at his end, making sure Angel stayed on the path.
This is the only reason Cordy is back. She is there to restart
Angel on the path to where he should be going.
Then there is Lindsey, who for all that searching for himself
ended up playing the same old game with the Senior Partners he
warned Angel of. All the runic symbols all his plans seemed to
be nothing more than a quest for advancement in a place he had
escaped from in Dead End. Now he had advanced, right on up to
the big guys....wonder if they will be angry with him or promote
him for his initiative? Tiny Texan.....snerk. Now for some lyrics
from Once More with Feeling.....
Life's a show
And we all play our parts
And when the music starts
We open up our hearts
It's all right
If some things come out wrong
We'll sing a happy song
And you can sing along
I'm not going to put down lots of dialogue like I usually do,
I'm going to just ask a few questions. If Angel was blinded but
now can see, what does he see? Better, what will he do with the
opportunity Cordy just gave him?
Cordy, the one who was there from the first, the one who fell
in love with the dumb ones, the one who knows about Connor and
reminded Angel that his friends minds have been raped. But she
was never really there if you listen to the hospital. Cordy died
in the hospital room, never waking up. The name of the episode
is something to remember. You're welcome, said just before Angel
finds out he has again lost someone he loved but not before she
helped him find his way. The Powers owed Cordy one and she did
the best with the time she had. This also makes one wonder why
the Powers owed her if she was only used as a pawn for Jasmine
to use. Makes one wonder about the rules and absolute power. Again,
how about those runes? And for those who saw the promo for next
week, who invited the Nazis?
I'm going to miss Cordy, the show will never be the same without
her, but just like life everything constantly goes through change.
Let the show go on.
Replies:
[> Re: Keep your shirt on you Tiny Texan......spoilers for
Angel 5.12 You're Welcome -- Cheryl, 07:46:18 02/05/04
Thu
Then there is Lindsey, who for all that searching for himself
ended up playing the same old game with the Senior Partners he
warned Angel of. All the runic symbols all his plans seemed to
be nothing more than a quest for advancement in a place he had
escaped from in Dead End. Now he had advanced, right on up to
the big guys....wonder if they will be angry with him or promote
him for his initiative? Tiny Texan.....snerk
Wasn't Lindsey from Oklahoma? That kind of threw me. The license
plate on his truck was Oklahoma.
I was wondering the same thing about the Senior Partner's reaction.
Didn't Lindsey do them a favor by distracting Angel and confusing
him as to his mission?
I love Lindsey's character and Dead End is one of my favorite
episodes. It really bothered me last night that we didn't find
out WHY the Lindsey from Dead End became the Lindsey of Season
5. It doesn't make sense to me. He called Angel a puppet, but
I think Lindsey is a puppet for the Senior Partners as well.
I hope this isn't the end of the Lindsey story.
[> [> Re: Keep your shirt on you Tiny Texan......spoilers
for Angel 5.12 You're Welcome -- Rufus, 08:43:31 02/05/04
Thu
Yes, he is from Oklahoma, but I didn't much care as I thought
the petty insult was so funny.
I have to wonder what happens with Lindsey, he didn't seem all
that worried about meeting the Boss (plural I guess). As for puppets,
funny how it takes one to know one, specially in AtS.
I'm with you in hoping Lindsey comes back for a rematch (shirt
optional).
Video games and Angel (spoils
for 100th ep) -- neaux, 08:18:10 02/05/04 Thu
ok.. so over the past seasons of Angel we've had references to
Resident Evil.. eerie similarities to Devil May Cry..
and last week an actual reference to Parasite Eve (used as a play
on words to Eve's parasite adventures).
What do we get this week? An actual spooky moment with Spike.
Its one thing that Spike is playing an X-Box. but even worse he
is playing Donkey Kong (NINETENDO Licensed) on a Microsoft machine!
does this have any meaning?
I would say yes. You would NEVER see Mario the mustached plumber
fighting to save the princess on an X-box.. I think this was a
metaphor or foreshadowing or something significant to the episode.
most people were shocked to hear Donkey Kong bleeps coming form
the X-box. In the same vein, Cordelia was shocked at the thought
of seeing Angel working for Wolfram and Hart.
you have 2 heros fighting for good but trapped in a corporate
box. mario in an x-box and Angel in Wolfram & Hart. You could
also say Angel's renewal of spirit played out like your standard
video game. Angel goes from level to level on a mission to fight
Lindsey. From a basement of zombies to a multi-platformed final
fight where the big bad didnt even die but was teleported to another
place for a later fight. And just like the avid gamer, Angel will
NOW be ready for the next battle.
Replies:
[> Shadow Cell Codes (Spoilers for ÒYouÕre
Welcome,Ó aka, I Hart the Paper Chase) -- fresne, 11:48:13
02/05/04 Thu
Actually, shadow cells have nothing to do with Angel, but I just
read the phrase in a, ÒWell thatÕs just insane Marketing
logic.Ó document and I liked it.
AnywayÉ
Sob, you know IÕve missed Queen C. Admiring EveÕs
stylish shoes (look ma, soles) even as she dissed Lilah Junior.
Miss Chase, looking good with brown hair and smiles. Like seeing
someone that I havenÕt seen in years. Half remembered and
missed.
Using her favor owed card to help her friends. Having actual romantic
chemistry with Angel. The man she fell inÉwith. It was
all very perfect. Purfect.
Cordelia with her mystic vision of tattoos that prevent mystic
vision. Putting Angel back onto his Mario the mystic plumber path.
Sending him where he needs to be. To his Wolfram and Hart office.
Darn that sinister Lindsey and his rip away shirt. Pulled up toward
the Senior Partners. Rising elevators and skipping town.
Slaves devouring the toner that provides the black and the gray.
What am I saying, Wolfram and Hart has color printers. Great vast
plotters full of luscious rolling paper and buckets of delicious
toner. I bet their printers have more than 1 Mg of memory. I bet
they can print out their huge complex plots on High Quality, not
just Draft. Sorry, I just had a moment of printer envy.
That darn shaven Wesley, with his magic that makes ink on skin
float away. Like glyphs washing away in the rain and the dark
portals that open in answer. Like memories plucked away empty.
Like scars that come off in the shower. Angry?
Racket ball and golf and video games. Freaking barrel throwing
monkey.
For some reason I thought of the game the Prince of Persia.
Now Angel just needs to jump off the squid monster tank and take
that leap of faith into the abyss. Clap his hands for Tinkerbell,
so he can be a ÒreelÓ boy. Reeling. Dancing. The
PtB believe in him. Clap YoÕ Hands and do the Yam. Well,
maybe not. Fred and GingerÕs ÒChange PartnerÕsÓ
number in Carefree was much better.
Ah, Lindsey. After all these years, still bitter over the way
things ended with Angel. Still longing to slide his knife into
AngelÕs walnut heart. Only half understanding SpikeÕs
X-box therapy. Then again, Spike got his own hands back. LindseyÕs
just got one evil hand to pluck his guitar strings heart. Hart.
Offices with magnificent views and seduction. And the Chase. Wolves
chasing Harts in the dark wood.
Doyle is dead Jim, but we can still seem him flickering on tape.
Buffy is in Rome, but we can still hear her in AngelÕs
memory, eternally going to the Prom. Cordelia is not here, but
you can still feel her. Taste her blood. Hold her for one last,
only, kiss. Connor is an empty space. The ghostly feeling where
a hand used to be. A memory that only Angel and Cordelia and for
some reason Eve share.
Eve, little Miss Lilith Junior, cast from the garden with her
raccoon angry eyes. Racoons jumping into the trash and making
a mess. Making such a racket. Silly Eve. Tricks are for Powers.
So, this gang of AngelÕs, they defeat Lindsey by summoning
the Senior PartnerÕs attention. Like standing on a puzzle
box and summoning the Hellraiser Cenobites, ÒIt is not
hands that call them, it is desire.Ó Cenobites. Monks and
Nuns and holy five. Five by five. Five fingers on Manos: Hand
of Fate. So, this gang of AngelÕs, they intimidate Eve
with Harmony, whoÕs evil and is willing to take one for
the team.
And Spike, well sorry. Bad monkey. No destiny for you. ThatÕs
for Angel the Mighty, heÕs very tidy. The PtB have plans
for him. The Senior PartnerÕs have plans for him. And strings.
Lindsey pulled up into darkness. Cordelia pulled up into light.
Doyle dissolved into light and all that remains is RGB. Not even
visions linger. The Oracles are long dead and S1 is far away.
When life was simple. When Angel threw vampires through windows
into the light. When he saved that truth speaking want to actress
from the wolves. From the creatures of the night. What music theyÉsilent
dust and a faint hint of night blooming jasmine and a tingle where
once flexed a hand.
Lorne can get Cordelia any part she wants now. Maybe her own sitcom.
But thatÕs not her Birthday wish.
The sort of episode that makes me think, can I just have the rest
of the season right now?
[> [> Mmmmmmm.........toner. (spoilers for "You're
Welcome") -- cjl, 12:15:30 02/05/04 Thu
Brought up a cartridge for one of our printers this morning. Was
tempted to pop open the plastic cap....
"And Spike, well sorry. Bad monkey. No destiny for you. ThatÕs
for Angel the Mighty, heÕs very tidy. The PtB have plans
for him. The Senior PartnerÕs have plans for him. And strings.
Lindsey pulled up into darkness. Cordelia pulled up into light.
Doyle dissolved into light and all that remains is RGB. Not even
visions linger. The Oracles are long dead and S1 is far away."
Y'know, I keep going back and forth about this ep. Was Fury in
"terminal irony" mode here or not? Was he not-so-subtly
mocking the "I-win-'cause-I'm-the-good-guy" Angelisms,
and making Spike eat Crow (IV) like Wes did in Awakenings?
Or did Joss tell Fury: "I want a Season 1 ep. The visions,
Cordy snarkage and boobage, Doyle (old and new), Wes doing the
mojo, Lindsey, the PTB, Angel's glorious destiny, yada yada yada.
I want the audience to feel good about everything before we take
Cordy away." Well...if that's the case, then Fury delivered.
I just don't know.
[> [> [> I vote the latter -- Masq, 12:54:14
02/05/04 Thu
Because Joss is EEeevvilll. He's eeevvillll.
And because he wanted to butter us up for the angst, Sturm and
Drang to come.
[> [> [> [> Oh, I sure hope so. -- Arethusa,
14:40:34 02/05/04 Thu
[> [> How Do You Know? -- Irene, 15:22:35 02/05/04
Thu
"And Spike, well sorry. Bad monkey. No destiny for you. ThatÕs
for Angel the Mighty, heÕs very tidy. The PtB have plans
for him."
How do you know if its going to end like this? What if ME decides
to surprise us?
[> [> [> Because I am the pirate queen -- fresne,
16:29:45 02/05/04 Thu
And my keyboard has a special keys for avast, ye, and matey. Okay,
and I just got out of a two hour meeting in which we all agreed
to meet again next week to come to a decision about whether or
not to get together to come to a decision.
Therefore, I apologize for being slightly flip. Well, except IÕm
in a yo, ho, whereÕs the rum mood, so IÕll also
apologize in a future tense as well.
I certainly didnÕt mean to imply that Spike doesnÕt
have a destiny; merely to short hand his own statements at the
end of the episode, ÒOh, well, whatever, lets go have a
drink.Ó
WhatÕs funny about Donkey Kong is that we have Mario
the hero and we have the oddly named monkey, who throws barrels.
The monkey gets to be the hero of a different video game. We are
all the heroes of our own story. Or at the very least, the main
character.
Everyone has a destiny. In this show even the dead, reach, touch
and affect. LilahÕs contract may be ironclad (and fire
proof), but choker necklaces are all the rage when the Senior
PartnerÕs pucker their (do they have lips?) and whistle.
Whistler.
ThereÕs evidence in this episode that Angel is still quite
on the PtB and the SPÕs radar. Who and what and how IÕm
supposed to take the Senior Powers that Be, thatÕs a separate
issue.
As to Angel being tidy, well, you havenÕt seen my desk.
Stacks of paper, binders, flow charts, rolled up 24x44 drawings
behind the spare chair, post-it notes, reference manuals, notepads.
Messy. Very messy.
Angel is very both mighty and tidy and quite possibly a master
of geography. IÕm not quite sure yet. IÕll wait
till next week to find out.
As to how things will come out, ME will quite probably surprise
us. I predict that Harmony is going to Shan-shoe in Paris and
possibly throw her hat up in the air. Angel and Spike will go
get a beer or possibly there will be oil wrestling. Redemption.
ItÕs a slippery business.
The unkindest cut (spoilers)
-- Hauptman, 09:03:55 02/05/04 Thu
I'm sorry if this has been answered a thousand times, but Iam
so dependant on you guys to untie the knots in my head.
So, what happend to Wesley's Scar? The appearnce of Cordy made
me wonder just how much the gang remembers. And that question
is kind of a speedbump for me as I feel that I don't know them
as well as I once did. Some key elements just disappeard this
season. Wesly's betrayal, Wes and Gun's rivalry/brotherhood, Guilt
over the murdered prof. Poof.
All of which I was going to let slide until Wes mentioned Lialah's
murder. Sigh...I'm just confused.
Replies:
[> Re: The unkindest cut (spoilers) -- Claudia, 10:16:02
02/05/04 Thu
Not only am I confused, I'm frustrated (as I have pointed out
on another post). I don't think that Whedon will bother to explain
this. If he does, he'll have my apology.
[> [> Re: The unkindest cut (spoilers) -- Hauptman,
10:58:46 02/05/04 Thu
I'm frustrated, too. I miss Dark Wesley. I think the writers have
hit a speedbump, too, because rather than the old side relationships,
everything seems to float up to Angel. Wes, Gunn and Fred don't
react to each other much. They respond to and interact mostly
with Angel. The focus is always on the Boss. It seemed to me like
a concerted effort was made in the past to dismantle the idea
that Angel was in charge and the focus...they even went so far
as to make him an employee of the company he started with Wes
as his boss. It was an interesting turn, and hanging out at the
Hotel really didn't give a focus on any one character. If they
needed to focus on Angel, they went to his room. Now it's all
about Angel sitting in the big chair and the others following
his orders. It's different. Add to that the fact that some of
that period of time at the hotel and events that I thought were
crucial have gone away and I am kind of ticked off.
It reminds me of the StarTrek episodes I loath. I like Star Trek
a lot, but I always hated those episodes that take place in alternate
universes, or where major events are wiped out through the miracle
of time travel. And the only reason I hated them is that the pricipal
characters were not aware of the change. I call them 'That Didn't
Happen' episodes. And I hate them because they don't move the
bigger narative along. The events aren't going to drop into conversation
later. The heroics or revelations of the episode just vanish.
That is not to say that Dopplegangland, with the Evil WIllow vampire,
falls into that catagory because not only does Cordy remember
and learn a lesson, but it's relevent because we get to see a
character from the alternate universe later. Okay, kind of a rip
off of Mirror Mirror, but you get my point.
Having Wes and the others reacting clulessly (and by now don't
you think they would have demanded an answer to who the F is Connor?
They just let that slide by too easily.) is just annoying. I hope
this is part of a major set up. Sorry to gripe.
Still loving the show. Harmony's 'torture' almost made me pee
my pants I was laughing so hard.
[> [> [> Re: The unkindest cut (spoilers) -- kisstara,
12:26:52 02/05/04 Thu
Without Connor there is no scar and no rivalry between Gunn and
Wesley. The love between Gunn and Fred does not exist since the
romance between Fred and Gunn began after Connor. Remember, the
two guys were both admiring Fred as she was holding the baby.
Wesley was cut as baby Connor was being taken from him. No baby,
no cut/scar.
What is interesting to me is: Did Wesley and Lilah have their
tryst? I can't remember if it existed as a result of Wesley's
exile from the gang or if it began prior to Connor?
Did Wesley really understand why Cordy was apologizing. It was
Wes who told her, " It wasn't you who killed Lilah"..in
last night's ep.
[> [> [> [> Re: The unkindest cut (spoilers)
-- Claudia, 15:09:44 02/05/04 Thu
["What is interesting to me is: Did Wesley and Lilah have
their tryst? I can't remember if it existed as a result of Wesley's
exile from the gang or if it began prior to Connor?"]
Yes, it did. Lilah found out about Wes' estrangement from the
group, thanks to Gavin Park and set about recruiting him for Wolfram
& Hart. Thus, began their affair.
["Did Wesley really understand why Cordy was apologizing.
It was Wes who told her, " It wasn't you who killed Lilah"..in
last night's ep."]
Yes, I believe he did. Or else he would not have mentioned Lilah's
death like that, in the first place.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: The unkindest cut (spoilers)
-- Hauptman, 15:56:37 02/05/04 Thu
Thank you both. Very helpful. Gosh, you really have to take notes
while you watch this show. Love it. Kind of mad that they blotted
out some good stuff in the minds of our heros, but...
[> [> [> [> [> For what it's worth.....
-- Briar Rose, 15:58:17 02/05/04 Thu
It appears that the Fang Gang were able to remember Jasmine as
long as it had nothing to do with Connor himself, directly.
It appeared that Wes remembered that Cordy was pregnant and that
Jasmine was evil. All he seems to have forgotten was that Connor
beget Jasmine WITH Cordy.
Now that would be totally appropriate, as the rest of the gang
didn't know about Cordy and Connor's (~~blech~~ still clawing
at my eyes) tryst, only Angel knew. AND Cordy was "missing"
for a while, so the Senior Partners could have washed their minds
up to her returning and having Jasmine, even though Connor was
removed from their memories.
My question is why Cordy'd memory wasn't wiped as well. She wasn't
dead, there was a possibility (no matter how small) that she'd
awaken. It would seem the Senior Partners wouldn't leave loose
ends like that, just in case.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: to Claudia and Briar
Rose -- kisstara, 16:11:50 02/05/04 Thu
But Claudia, Wes was estranged from the gang because he kidnapped
Connor. No Connor, no kidnap, no estrangement...no LILAH-Wes tryst?
In response to Briar Rose. It was never revealed who created the
stipulation that the world and the gang has their memories wiped
clean of Connor. Perhaps Angel wanted the memories erased, but
saved Cordelia's memories as a safety net for his own sanity and
figuring that the coma girl couldn't spill the beans. Or he just
forgot to include her in the memory wipe due to the coma.
Or, the PTB protected or re-injected the Connor memories into
her brain.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: to Claudia and
Briar Rose -- Claudia, 07:47:21 02/06/04 Fri
"But Claudia, Wes was estranged from the gang because he
kidnapped Connor. No Connor, no kidnap, no estrangement...no LILAH-Wes
tryst?"
That is what I said. I also stated that after Wes was estranged
from the gang , it was Gavin Park who told Lilah about Wes' situation
in "The Price":
Lilah: "Gavin. - What a pleasant surprise."
Gavin: "People are saying you've made great strides forward
with Angel."
Lilah: "What are you talking about?"
Gavin: "You mean you don't know? He tried to kill one of
his people at a hospital."
Lilah smiles: "Wow, Gav, you're quick. Maybe your next news
flash will involve that newfangled invention called - fire."
Gavin: "Hey, you know, despite our differences, when a co-worker
tries to pat you on the backÉ"
Lilah: "I check for the knife."
Gavin chuckles: "Well, in any case, Angel tried to kill a
human, bringing him one step closer to his dark side, and one
step closer to us."
Lilah: "Dark side shmark side. Remember a year ago? Wine
cellar - slaughter?"
Gavin: "They were lawyers."
Lilah: "And you are?"
Gavin: "A realist. - Angel tried to smother one of his closest
friends with a pillow. We're making progress."
Lilah: "We could make more. Get those two wacky kids together
again and see what happens."
Gavin: "Might even make up for you losing that baby."
Lilah: "Nice try, but unlike you, Gavin, I'm ahead of the
game. Angel tried to kill his friend, kidnapped and tortured Linwood,
and performed dark, forbidden magics, all on my watch."
In the episodes following that one, Lilah set about recruiting
Wes to Wolfram & Hart. This eventually led to the beginning of
their affair in "Tomorrow".
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: For what it's worth.....
(SPOILERS for 5.12) -- dub ;o), 18:30:30 02/05/04 Thu
My question is why Cordy'd memory wasn't wiped as well. She
wasn't dead, there was a possibility (no matter how small) that
she'd awaken. It would seem the Senior Partners wouldn't leave
loose ends like that, just in case.
Well, in fact, they didn't, 'cuz Cordy is dead, and she
never did wake up, at least according to the end of last
night's ep....
:o)
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Or maybe the Partners
couldn't mindwipe her for the same reason Jasmine couldn't mindwipe
Angelus -- Finn Mac Cool, 18:59:41 02/05/04 Thu
Her mind was buried/submerged, so it wasn't affected. There's
a precedent for this.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Maybe but...
-- Athena, 09:03:53 02/06/04 Fri
Maybe, but Jasmine wanted Angelus to come out? Afterall, she attempted
to prevent his reinsoulment. The chaos helped hide Cordelia's
pregnancy
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> It's very possible
that... -- Rob, 21:17:25 02/11/04 Wed
...the mystical coma Cordy was under blocked out any other magics,
such as the mindwipe, from getting in. That's how I interpreted
it, at least.
Rob
[> I believe it's similar to Glory & Ben -- Sgamer82,
20:59:50 02/05/04 Thu
A theory on "The Cautionary Tale of Numero Cinco" (or
somewhere on that page) states taht the Connor mindwipe is similar
to the Glory/Ben effect on the Scooby Gang. Humans witnessing
the Glory/Ben transformation would instantly forget about it and
would trail off on a different subject if they attempted to think
about it.
This is probably how the Connor-wipe works. The Angel Gang remembers
the events more or less as they happened. Wesley still betrayed
them and did Lilah, Jasmine and the Beast still came to earth.
However, they have no recollection of Connor in these events.
If they're reminded, they immediately forget and are unable to
focus on it if they dwell on it. It's obviously a different spell,
since demons weren't affected by Ben & Glory and Lorne's affected
here, but there are similarities that make it the same type of
idea.
But that's just me agreeing with someone else's opinion. I could
be wrong.
[> [> Re: I believe it's similar to Glory & Ben --
Claudia, 07:51:58 02/06/04 Fri
And for what reason did Wes betray the gang? Will ME explain?
Or will they leave this hanging, expecting the audience to simply
accept that he remembered his affair with Lilah?
Someone once pointed out that it was easier for the monks to insert
memories of Dawn into the Scoobies' psyche than it was for the
Senior Partners to erase Connor from the Fang Gang's memories.
I can see their point.
[> [> [> He doesn't remember why he betrayed Angel
-- Finn Mac Cool, 09:22:38 02/06/04 Fri
He remembers being cut off from the Gang after betraying Angel,
but can't actually remember what the betrayal was. The Senior
Parterns removed all memories specifically about Connor; they
didn't put in replacement memories or alter memories to fit this
void. For example, Lorne can probably remember his demon friend
from "Slouching" being killed, but can't seem to recall
who killed him. Everyone remembers someone knocking up Evil Cordelia,
but still can't remember Connor being the one to do it. Wes and
the others remember everything from the past two years with the
exception of Connor himself. Everything that happened because
of him, they can still remember, but not the actual person who
caused them.
Of course, this is all in theory, but it's still perfectly feasible
until ME provides contradictory evidence.
[> [> [> [> Re: He doesn't remember why he betrayed
Angel -- Claudia, 10:03:32 02/06/04 Fri
"He remembers being cut off from the Gang after betraying
Angel, but can't actually remember what the betrayal was. The
Senior Parterns removed all memories specifically about Connor;
they didn't put in replacement memories or alter memories to fit
this void. For example, Lorne can probably remember his demon
friend from "Slouching" being killed, but can't seem
to recall who killed him. Everyone remembers someone knocking
up Evil Cordelia, but still can't remember Connor being the one
to do it. Wes and the others remember everything from the past
two years with the exception of Connor himself. Everything that
happened because of him, they can still remember, but not the
actual person who caused them."
Again, this does not make any sense. If Wes has no memories of
Connor, why would he remember betraying the gang? And why would
he remember his affair with Lilah? I'm talking about cause and
effect, here.
Look at Buffy and Dawn. The insertion of Dawn into the Scoobies'
lives and memories made an impact. Especially upon Buffy. Her
behavior changed from that of an only child to the oldest sibling.
Can you imagine how Buffy's life would have been if Dawn had never
existed? And Joyce had died, anyway? Xander ended up reveling
in the fact that a young, teenaged girl had a crush on him. Even
Willow projected more of an older sister persona than she did
before Season 5.
My question is . . . if the Senior Partners' had removed memories
of Connor, why did they maintained the Fang Gang's memories of
the Wes/Lilah affair and Jasmine? Connor's presence had an effect
upon both.
What ME should have done was not only erased the Fang Gang's memories
of Connor, but the cause and effect he had on their lives. They
should have never had memories of Jasmine, Cordelia's pregnancy,
the Wes/Lilah affair or Wes' estrangement from the gang.
But ME did not do this. Instead, they left everything vague.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: He doesn't remember why he
betrayed Angel -- Finn Mac Cool, 14:46:22 02/06/04 Fri
And I'm saying that the cause and effect in their memories is
messed up. For example, someone may remember jumping out of a
second story window when they were a kid, but they won't necessarily
remember why they thought that was a good thing to do. And that's
a mind that wasn't mystically affected by higher/lower beings.
To use Wesley as an example:
One day he might think back to his relationship with Lilah and
be amazed that he ever fell for someone like her. This will get
him thinking about how, when she came to him, he was seperated
from the rest of the AI gang. This will lead to thinking about
why he split up with them in the first place. When Wesley reaches
this point in his memory, one of two things will happen:
1) He realizes that he can't remember why he split off from AI.
He will discover that there are holes in his memory, missing links
in the chain of cause and effect.
2) As soon as he thinks back to something Connor related, he will
start to become like the Scoobies in "Weight of the World".
For a moment he'll realize something's not right, but the spell
will kick in and his mind will wander off, and soon he'll forget
what he was wondering about in the first place.
The first option is still possible, since people don't usually
probe their memories with so much depth. I personally think the
second option is more likely, though, since there's less of a
risk that the former AI gang will realize there's something wrong.
Now, you argue that it wouldn't make sense for the Senior Partners
to remove all memories specifically about Connor but nothing else.
My guess would be that it was more efficient. Don't you think
it would be easier on their parts to just erase the Connor specific
memories and put up a "Ben/Glory's Forget There's a Problem
Spell" rather than erasing memories of Connor and every single
event he ever caused (not to mention, if that was the case, probably
constructing new memories to replace two years' worth of lost
ones)? Seems like an easy corner to cut.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: He doesn't remember
why he betrayed Angel -- Claudia, 16:06:19 02/06/04 Fri
"And I'm saying that the cause and effect in their memories
is messed up. For example, someone may remember jumping out of
a second story window when they were a kid, but they won't necessarily
remember why they thought that was a good thing to do. And that's
a mind that wasn't mystically affected by higher/lower beings."
Or perhaps ME could have made a mistake by allowing the Fang Gang
to remember every instance that came about, due to Connor's presence.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: He doesn't remember
why he betrayed Angel -- Rob, 18:52:36 02/06/04 Fri
Or perhaps ME could have made a mistake by allowing the Fang
Gang to remember every instance that came about, due to Connor's
presence.
Or perhaps Finn is right.
Rob
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: He doesn't
remember why he betrayed Angel -- Claudia, 09:27:17 02/09/04
Mon
"Or perhaps Finn is right."
Or perhaps he is not. You mean to say that none of you had ever
questioned why Wes remembered his affair with Lilah, without remembering
Connor? Considering that it was Connor's presence that led to
the affair in the first place?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I'll
try to make this as clear as possible -- Finn Mac Cool, 15:14:50
02/09/04 Mon
FACT: Welsey does not remember Connor's existence.
FACT: Wesley remembers dating Lilah.
FACT: Wesley remembers a Jasmine-possessed-Cordelia killing Lilah.
All three of these things have been established on the show; they
are part of canon. It is only fair to the writers that we not
call what has been established as canon into question until evidence
that DIRECTLY contradicts it has also appeared on the show.
Now, I'm not sure whether you can't understand the theory I've
laid out above, refuse to understand it in your adamant search
for a goof made by the writers, or simply enjoy arguing too much
to admit it. If the latter two are accurate, I'm pretty much wasting
my time in responding to you, as no decent conversation can occur
when one side refuses to listen to the other's logic. However,
assuming it is the first option, I will try once more to lay out
the theory in a manner that can be easily understood.
OK, imagine you're one of the Senior Partners and you're given
the job of erasing all memories of Connor's existence. Being the
higher power that you are, you do this in an instant. But your
job's not finished though. You've removed all memories of Connor
himself, but that leaves noticeable gaps in people's memories.
They can still remember Jasmine, even though Connor was the one
who brought Jasmine forth. Obviously, you can't just leave it
like that; people will get suspicious that they can't remember
who Jasmine's father was and realize their memories have been
tampered with. So, you have three options for solving this problem:
1: Rewrite memories to explain away the loss of Connor. For example,
instead of Connor impregnating Cordelia, it's a mystical, no-sperm-required
birth. Instead of being ostracized from AI for kidnapping Connor,
Wesley's ostracized for another reason entirely.
2: Erase all memories even incidentally caused by Connor's presence,
which would include rouge Wesley, Jasmine, and Cordelia's coma.
3: Leave the memories as they are, with only those memories that
Connor himself is actually in removed. Instead of erasing or writing
more memories, you simply cast a spell over the missing pieces
of memory where Connor once was. So, while it makes no logical
sense for Jasmine to exist without Connor, your spell stops people
from realizing this doesn't make sense. They do not question their
memories because, whenever they discover that a link is missing
in the chain of cause and effect, they instantly forget that they
were thinking about it in the first place. Go ask Wesley or Fred
who Jasmine's father was and they'll show confusion at first as
they realize they can't remember. But, before they realize the
full ramifications of what missing such a memory must mean, your
spell takes effect and they'll ask you what you just said, having
forgotten the topic of Jasmine's father completely and the lack
of logical sense it implies.
Of these three options, 2 is currently out of the question, since
Wesley can remember dating Lilah. While you can claim it was a
continuity error, no evidence has yet appeared in canon to support
number 2, so we must discount it until such evidence appears.
We are therefore left with either option 1 or option 3. I personally
think 3 is the more likely option, but there's certainly nothing
stopping 1 from being true so far.
Now, why would the Senior Partners select option 3? Well, option
1 would require them to create quite a few new memories, which
may take more effort then simply erasing them. Option 2 would
require erasing many more memories, as well as possibly creating
a lot more so that the last two years don't just seem to be a
void. Quite simply, option 3 may very well be the most energy
efficient solution.
Is there anything here you don't understand? Don't say memories
of Jasmine make so sense and defy cause and effect. I already
stated that, under my theory, the Fang Gang's memories DON'T make
sense and have several pieces of cause and effect missing; it's
just that NONE OF THEM NOTICE IT. Is there anything that needs
more clarification?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Finn's option makes
more sense -- Ace
of Sevens, 12:26:29 02/08/04 Sun
It seems unlikely this was a mistake, especially since it was
paired with making a point of how he doesn't remember Connor.
Watch Wesley's reaction when Cordelia mentions defeating Jasmine.
It isn't all that different from Dawn trying to remember what
happened to Ben in Blood Ties.
After all, everything that happened to the Fang Gang in seasons
three and four was at least indirectly related to Connor. They
can't very well have a two year gap in their memories without
noticing and making up fake memories would seem to be much more
complicated when you're subtracting rather than adding (as with
Dawn).
Since they've already established precedent for how selective
memory loss spells work and we've been given no indication Wesley
shouldn't remember his involvement with Lilah, I see no reason
to call this an error.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I Do --
Claudia, 09:37:21 02/09/04 Mon
"After all, everything that happened to the Fang Gang in
seasons three and four was at least indirectly related to Connor.
They can't very well have a two year gap in their memories without
noticing and making up fake memories would seem to be much more
complicated when you're subtracting rather than adding (as with
Dawn)."
I'm sorry, but your explanation makes even less sense than Mutant
Enemy's decision to allow Wes to keep his memories of Lilah.
What the monks did was insert Dawn into the memories of the Scoobies.
If you look back at their history, pre-Season 5, there seemed
to be little possibility of Dawn's presence affecting the past.
Unless Dawn was targeted by Spike, Drusilla and Angel back in
Season 2.
But by removing memories of Connor from the Fang Gang's conscience,
the Senior Partners inflicted a stronger impact on the gang's
memories and possibly their present behavior. Especially upon
Wes, whose life was affected by Connor a lot stronger than anyone
else's - aside from Angel and Cordelia.
Earlier this season, many viewers were commenting on how different
the gang's behavior seemed to be, in compare to how they were
behaving by late Season 4. In Wes's case, he almost seemed like
a throwback to his early Season 3 self - including his obssession
with Fred. And now in mid-season, everyone seemed to have forgotten
this and have decided not to question why Wes would have memories
of his affair with Lilah, considering that the latter came about,
due to Connor's presence.
Is this a case of fans refusing to believe that ME could commit
such an enormous blooper?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I
Do -- Finn Mac Cool, 14:29:02 02/09/04 Mon
Ever consider that maybe the fans were reading things into those
episodes that wasn't there? I find it entirely plausible that
people may have been acting slightly differently than in Season
4 due to their change in environment. Currently, their running
huge departments in a morally ambiguous (at best) company, not
interacting with each other much (see the teaser for "Unleashed"),
and don't seem to have much in the way of a Big Bad to focus on.
Compare this to Season 4, where they all lived together at the
hotel, relied on each others' resources and little else, and had
to focus 80% of their attention on stopping Jasmine from taking
over the world. Place a person in new surroundings, interacting
with a lot of new people, and you'll see a different person than
you did before in many ways.
Also, I guess a lot of this depends on your attitude. I, personally,
take an "innocent till proven guilty" stance towards
continuity goofs. Currently, there's still a workable theory which
explains Wesley remembering his affair with Lilah but not anything
to do with Connor. Until something occurs which refutes that theory
(no one remembering the Beast, for example), than I see no reason
to cry foul. Otherwise, anytime evidence is presented to refute
a fan theory, it's a continuity goof. For example:
It's a popular fan theory that Faith is bisexual. If ME later
has an episode where Faith is shown to be undeniably straight,
they didn't make a continuity error; Faith's bisexuality was only
a theory to begin with; it was never mentioned in canon.
Likewise, a popular fan theory was that Wesley and the others
forgot everything caused by Connor, and so would have no memories
of Jasmine or Lilah dating Wesley. It has been shown in "Lineage"
and "You're Welcome", though, that these particular
memories are still in tact. It is not a blunder on ME's part if
they disprove a theory fans had accepted; as long as they stay
true to what they established as canon, they have not goofed up.
[> [> [> [> I think this should be added --
Seven, 07:22:47 02/07/04 Sat
I agree with this theory, but it should be added that this spell,
in theory, would not create a VISIBLE hole in their memories.
It would create a big hole, no doubt, which I think is what concerns
the posters who can't buy this theory. This theory would rely,
however, on the idea that the spell forces the character to not
think about it. If the topic is brought up, and they begin to
see the "hole," they immediatly become preocupied (sp?),
a great metaphor that has been used throughout the season. All
the AI members are so "preocupied" with their respective
jobs, they have missed some very important issues (Lorne's sleep,
Angel's parasite, their own possible corruption).
Let's take for example, in "You're Welcome," when Cordy
asks (hopes) that AI killed Jasmine. In Home, Angel informs AI
that "Jasmine's dead. Conner killed her."
When Cordy brings up Jasmine's death, Wes appears confused and
Angel looks at him in worry that this will remind him. However,
the topic is quickly changed and the clouds form over Wes' train
of thought. He never goes back to thinking about it.
This theory works because it requires the "victims"
to live as they are, not dwell on the past, which many people
would consider to be a healthy way to live. They feel that they
"Know" their past and they do not need to dwell on it.
If the topic is raised, they soon forget about it and do not dwell
on it. THAT is is the spell (imho). I think it would make sense.
I hope that can appease the masses
[> [> [> [> [> But . . . -- Claudia, 10:02:33
02/09/04 Mon
"When Cordy brings up Jasmine's death, Wes appears confused
and Angel looks at him in worry that this will remind him. However,
the topic is quickly changed and the clouds form over Wes' train
of thought. He never goes back to thinking about it."
The problem with this is that Wes shouldn't even have memories
of Jasmine . . . especially if he doesn't have memories of Connor.
Why? The old rule of CAUSE AND EFFECT. Jasmine came about, because
of Connor's presence. She was, essentially, his daughter. Now,
why would Wes have memories of the existence of Connor's daughter,
but not Connor, himself? It makes no sense.
If the insertion of Dawn into Buffy's memories had the effect
of changing her character from that of an only child to an older
sibling who resents the younger, shouldn't the erasure of Connor
from Wes' memories have some kind of effect upon his memories
of other incidents and people, who were also affected by Connor's
presence?
[> [> [> [> [> And that's the troubling part
-- Masq, 10:42:09 02/09/04 Mon
This theory works because it requires the "victims"
to live as they are, not dwell on the past, which many people
would consider to be a healthy way to live. They feel that they
"Know" their past and they do not need to dwell on it.
They're not dwelling on their pasts, they're "distracted"
by their present. They're not asking important questions, like
"Is being at Wolfram and Hart who I really am now?",
because when they compare the present to the recent past (two
and a half years), their minds wander away from that.
Cordelia called this a "mind rape" in YW, and them's
strong words. I doubt ME would have had her put it that way if
we weren't meant to see it that way. A "mind rape" takes
something vital away from you, part of your experience and identity,
and makes it a lot harder to introspect about your current motives,
and judge your current actions.
Makes me wonder if the mind wipe was the Senior Partner's idea,
not Angel's. If the gang spends less time thinking about their
pasts as part of Angel Investigations, they spend less time wondering
what they're doing at W&H.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: And that's the troubling
part -- Jane, 17:34:07 02/09/04 Mon
I agree, it is entirely possible that the mind wipe was part of
the SP's plan. By taking away some of the past, and having the
gang focus on the present, it makes keeping Angel and company
at W&H easier for the SP. It keeps the gang from examining their
motives for accepting the offer. If I remember correctly, in "Home",
Gunn & Lorne had pretty much decided to take the offer, while
Fred and Wes were still on the fence about it. This was just before
Angel arrived to announce that the offer was a go.
I think the spell is most likely the third option: when faced
with the lost memories, the gang's minds just slip away from the
subject. (Kind of like when you go into a room for something,
and forget what it was.)
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: And that's the
troubling part -- Masq, 11:51:29 02/10/04 Tue
If I remember correctly, in "Home", Gunn & Lorne
had pretty much decided to take the offer, while Fred and Wes
were still on the fence about it. This was just before Angel arrived
to announce that the offer was a go.
More significantly, they made up their minds after the mind-wipe
went into effect. Who knows what influence that might have had?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: And that's
the troubling part -- Hauptman, 14:11:08 02/10/04 Tue
That is an interesting point. I had not put together that Team
Angel gave their final answer after the un-Connoring. I'll have
to consider that further.
But...someone said earlier that the forgetting spell kind of works
like the Ben/Glory thing. That's all well and good, and we can
discuss what they do and don't remember until kingdom come. I
want to know what happend to the scar on Wes' neck. Firstly, was
it as prominant as I remember it, or did it just heal up totally.
If not, are we to think that the spell removed this physical aspect
of Conner's existance? If so we are talking alternate history
here, folks and anything goes. In other words, if they pulled
conner out of time, eliminating all physical interactions, then
we have a big problem. That means no Jasmine. But there is Jasmine,
there shold be a scar. Or was the spell selective. If the spell
is selective, then ME can do what they like and we can't say boo.
Not digging that posibility.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Altering
reality -- Masq, 16:22:41 02/10/04 Tue
Angel specifically told Cordelia that the SP "altered reality"--giving
Connor a home and parents, and presumably changing aspects of
reality that would raise questions in the minds of mind-wiped
people like Wes.
Now, if the spell is a Ben/Glory thing Wesley would presumably
not need the scar removed. Everytime he wondered where he got
it, his mind would just wander. But that's a lot of wandering.
Like every morning, while he's shaving. So, hence, remove that
bit of Connor-leftovers.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re:
Altering reality /Bobby's shower -- Hauptman, 06:32:01
02/11/04 Wed
Good Point Masq. I had forgotten that an entire family had been
created. If they could do that, wiping out a little scar tissue
shouldn't be much of a problem. So, what everyone is saying is,
Wesley has gone dark but he doesn't know why? He is filled with
righteous hate and loathing for the world, but when he tries to
think about it he gets fuzzy? That makes sense, but it sounds
like an awful way to live. The Fang Gang should be suffering the
effect more and Angel should feel guity for what he has done to
his friends. I guess I wanted to find a way to track the logical
outcome of the deal/spell that eliminated Conner from the series.
Understanding some of the boundries allows for more accurate speculation
and wacky fun-filled guessing. But I guess it is undefined. We
can't assume what remains of the last two seasons. That's unfortunate
as they were two of my favorites, but I suppose we should just
look forward. Perhaps someone can keep a list of alterations as
we go along, ones that they admit to rather than ones we assume.
I just had a thought. What if it becomes necessary to undo the
Conner spell? Obviously the Senior Partners are evil and got something
out of the deal. Maybe it's very naughty. I wonder how Conner
would feel about being robbed of a childhood twice? I would be
a little ticked off.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
Actually... -- Rob, 09:27:23 02/11/04 Wed
The Fang Gang should be suffering the effect more
...if this is indeed like the Ben/Glory spell, the Fang Gang wouldn't
be suffering at all. Not only when they begin thinking about the
past would their memory get fuzzy, but they would forget they'd
been thinking about it in the first place. Remember Weight of
the World, and how innocent each person was every time s/he found
out Ben was Glory, as if they'd never considered the question
before? It's like that.
Rob
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
OK... now you're making me neurotic! ; ) -- Masq, 09:34:00
02/11/04 Wed
I guess I wanted to find a way to track the logical outcome
of the deal/spell that eliminated Conner from the series.
Oooh, I wish you'd word that a bit differently. Connor is one
of my favorite characters on the show, and after the memory wipe
in Home, "Who's Connor?" I went catatonic for four months.
It felt like he'd been, not written off the show, but written
OUT OF the show, like a big bull-dozer had come and just scooped
out all the Connor bits.
Understanding some of the boundries allows for more accurate
speculation and wacky fun-filled guessing. But I guess it is undefined.
My board friends spent a lot of time trying to reassure me that
the mind-wipe would be dealt with. That it will eventually come
up, and the deal Angel struck with the Senior Partners will be
revealed. After season 5 started, we spent many a fun hour trying
to find references to the mind-wipe in the new episodes, even
if they were in the subtext. (Like the Psychic Component Storage
Facility in episode 5. If Lorne's sleep is in a jar in the cabinet,
wouldn't Wesley's memory of Connor be in there, too?)
We can't assume what remains of the last two seasons.
Over time and 12 episodes, it's become very clear that the gang
remembers a great deal about the last two years, including Lilah's
death, Jasmine, Cordelia's posession by Jasmine, Gunn and Fred's
romance, Lilah and Wesley's relationship, etc, etc. The only way
left to make any sense of this is to say only events directly
related to Connor ("The father will kill the son" prophecy,
who killed Jasmine) are gone. And the only way to make sense of
that is Finn Mac Cool's "Glory and Ben" theory.
That's unfortunate as they were two of my favorites
Mine, too. Well, seasons 2 and 3 are my favorites, with 3 being
the most favorite. And the DVDs for that season should be arriving
on my desk top any moment now. I remember when I got my season
2 DVD set. I couldn't watch it. After the memory wipe, it felt
like the whole past of the show--not just Connor, but everything--was
pointless to watch. Plus, several events in season 2 directly
brought about Connor's appearance on the show, including Angel's
attempt to save Darla in "The Trial" and their consummation
in "Reprise".
But the past has been brought up again and again on the show.
Mostly the season 1 past, but among Angel and Eve, the season
4 past and season 3. I wouldn't be able to watch my season 3 DVDs
if I thought there was no point to that because season 3 never
really "happened" anymore. It happened, and someday
soon the rest of the gang will remember that, even if Connor's
new reality isn't changed.
I just had a thought. What if it becomes necessary to undo
the Conner spell? Obviously the Senior Partners are evil and got
something out of the deal. Maybe it's very naughty.
Here's what I think the SPs got out of the spell--not Connor's
present reality, I think that's probably happy and good--but I
think they were the ones who specified the memory wipe. I posted
somewhere above that the memory wipe has the effect of making
the gang not think too much about their pasts, and it effected
their decision to work at W&H. The memory wipe essentially
made it easier for the SPs to get the gang in its clutches, and
now that it has, to make them concentrate on the present and not
the past, on working for W&H and not thinking too much about their
efforts and lives while they were part of Angel Investigations.
I wonder how Conner would feel about being robbed of a childhood
twice? I would be a little ticked off.
I was going to write a fan fic about this, but then I remembered
I don't write fan fic. I was going to have a big angry confrontation
between Angel and Connor. "You can't be saved by a lie",
and the feeling a child has of being utterly rejected by a parent,
given away so the parent can go off and be the workaholic jerk
he always was, loving his job better than his child. Those would
be Connor's words, anyway.
The other alternative is that if the spell was reversed, Connor
would go back to being the person he was when the spell was invoked.
Angry, lost and suicidal.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
[> Maybe there's another way. -- Arethusa, 09:50:45
02/11/04 Wed
Perhaps the mindwipe could be revealed and Connor could have both
sets of memories, real and false. He would remember the past and
the way he felt during his previous life, but since it was a "lifetime"
ago, he might have enough distance from his old self to be able
to handle the memories of pain. It could be like looking back
on your unhappy youth; the memory of pain is there, but it is
muted and put into context by time. And he would still have the
more recent memories of a happy life; his sense of being cheated
out of love and family would be very much dimmed by more recent
and healthy experiences.
He would probably not want to have anything to do with Angel,
though.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Re: Maybe there's another way. -- Hauptman,
10:14:44 02/11/04 Wed
"Perhaps the mindwipe could be revealed and Connor could
have both sets of memories, real and false. He would remember
the past and the way he felt during his previous life, but since
it was a "lifetime" ago, he might have enough distance
from his old self to be able to handle the memories of pain. It
could be like looking back on your unhappy youth; the memory of
pain is there, but it is muted and put into context by time. And
he would still have the more recent memories of a happy life;
his sense of being cheated out of love and family would be very
much dimmed by more recent and healthy experiences."
Interesting idea. But wouldn't that make him a dim reflection
of his father, effectively creating an Angel/Angelus dynamic?
Conner could then be well adjusted suburban kid one moment and
then destroyer, wild child the next. And we'd all have to watch
the struggle inside him. While entertaining for Conner fans, I
think a Connor/Connorlus thread would get old fast.
And Masq, I am right there with you regarding the watching of
the Angel season three DVD. There's a "why bother" ness
that I am unhappy with. Guess that's why I'm draggin my feet to
make the purchase. Usually I am there the day before the release
trying to get staff to sell it to me early. "Come on! I just
want one!" But your discription makes me want to see Fred
and Gunn fall in love again. By the way, I don't think they remember
dating. That's just the take on it that I get. I think the lab
guy she works with suggested that there was something between
her and Gunn and I don't remember her response except that it
was open to interpretation.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> Connor/Connorlus -- Masq, 10:30:50
02/11/04 Wed
If Connor/Connorlus happened on the show, it would be one episode
only. Arethusa's right, Connor would probably not want to have
anything to do with Angel, out of anger, or out of "that's
too distant in the past to matter."
I don't think they remember dating.
Oh, they do. For one thing, there was a line in Harm's Way where
one of the W&H employees says, "They used to be a thing."
The memory wipe effected everyone except Angel, even if that person
never knew Connor. It wouldn't make any sense for everyone else
to swap stories about how Gunn and Fred used to be a thing and
Gunn and Fred don't remember it.
Gunn and Fred remember being a thing, but they don't dwell on
it because, like I said, the spell makes them not dwell on the
past two years too much. They might think about how they got together,
about their romance, but when they start to stray too close to
parts related to Connor, like Gunn and Fred being Connor's surrogate
parents together in the summer of 2002, they stop thinking about
it.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> Re: Connor/Connorlus -- Hauptman,
11:04:35 02/11/04 Wed
You and Arethusa are right. Connor would probably not want to
deal with his dad. And they were gossiping in 'Harm's way' about
Fred and Gunn. I remembering it confusing me. I thought the guy
in the lab Fred's all bunt cake moist over said something like
that. Maybe the spell is affecting me too.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> Re: Maybe there's another way. -- Claudia,
14:19:34 02/11/04 Wed
"So, what everyone is saying is, Wesley has gone dark but
he doesn't know why? He is filled with righteous hate and loathing
for the world, but when he tries to think about it he gets fuzzy?
That makes sense, but it sounds like an awful way to live. The
Fang Gang should be suffering the effect more and Angel should
feel guity for what he has done to his friends. I guess I wanted
to find a way to track the logical outcome of the deal/spell that
eliminated Conner from the series."
And this is why I have a hard time dealing with the fact that
Wes remembered his affair with Lilah and not Connor. I'm surprised
that he, along with Fred, Gunn and Lorne would even remember Cordy's
pregnancy and Jasmine.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
[> [> That would be a real mess -- KdS, 11:22:19
02/11/04 Wed
In general, multiple alternate memories of the same period would,
I suspect, be extremely damaging to one's sanity. Unless you're
dealing with extremely strong personalities, or beings with multiple
existences and single consciousness like Una Persson.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> It certainly could be. -- Arethusa, 11:33:33
02/11/04 Wed
I do think Connor has an extremely strong persoality, and he was
quite good at adapting to life in an alternate dimension (Angel's,
of course). That suggests some flexibility of mind, although who
knows if he would be able to handle it?
[> other vanishing scars (spoilers for "damage,"
"you're welcome" -- anom, 18:57:27 02/12/04 Thu
Spike has no scars where his hands & forearms were reattached.
Vampires on the shows heal faster than humans, sure, but the remnants
of much more superficial wounds have been visible on them for
longer after they were inflicted. Did Spike get magical as well
as medical treatment to achieve more complete healing than otherwise
possible? (Thanks to Dariel for suggesting this possibility.)
What about Lindsey's transplanted hand? Didn't see any scar there
either, & we've had plenty of chances for a good look. And that's
not even his own hand--has he been on anti-rejection drugs all
this time? Or did W&H also have magical medicine that made them
unnecessary?
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