April 2003 posts
spoiler
&spec: my take on season 7 and the finale - - luvthistle1,
12:46:24 04/21/03 Mon
Last season Spike asked the demon in the cave to give the slayer
what she deserve. so, what do the slayer deserve ? she deserves
not to be along. and she isn't, because when she tell Angel spike
is in her heart she meant it "literally'.
All during season 7, we had been seeing things from Buffy point
of view. but if you re-watch season 7, you will notice that most
of the time the scoobies do not interact with Spike. Spike and
Buffy are, and has been as one. I not sure when it happen, before
7 or after. but some where down the line Spike had become "Buffy".
That is why we do not see Spike when Buffy is talking to Giles
at the beginning of "First date". Buffy switches to
Spike when she (as Spike) attack Giles. that is also why no one
actually response to Spike request that he will go get Buffy (in
first date). he not really there. when Buffy is on a date, or
doing something where she needs to be alone. Spike's spirit. stays
at the house, or in the basement. All the scoobies think she is
gone crazy. so, no one talks about it. Giles think he can help
Buffy, by tricking her into believe that Spike is dead. in LMPTM.
Think about it, if Giles had actual saw Spike he would have known
that wood didn't kill him, but there has never been a spike in
season 7. he died in that cave that day he ask for a soul. he
later became what Buffy needed most. the demon half that makes
the slayer a slayer. That is why in "get it done" we
see a split screen of Buffy and Spike fighting. it is shown side
by side, to let us know, that they are one. that is also why Clem
didn't talk to Spike in "potential" . spike is not present
when the slayer is talking. he only talks to her. In dirty girls,
Where was Buffy? when Spike and faith were fighting? that whole
scene was shot from Buffy's point of view. but if you look closely
you will notice that ,Faith is confuse when Buffy hit her. Willow
went to get Faith because she feels (as well as Xander,and the
rest of the scoobies) that Buffy had crack up- lost it. that is
why the sits , keep calling her crazy. that is why everyone is
so sad. they do not see what she sees. she is the only one who
actually see Spike, the others just pretends to go along with
her, because they are at a lost of what to do. It is only Faith
sitting on Spike's cot. but Buffy sees, "Spike" there
beside her. because that is where he goes, when the slayer do
not needed him. In "lies my mother told me" XANDER (muttering
to himself) Couldn't have put the chains back up a week ago...
no, we have to wait 'til "pretending time's" over to
work on Spike... PRETENDING TIME. everyone was "pretending"
that Spike was still alive, still with them , but for that whole
time he hasn't been. he has been a part of Buffy all that time.
When we see Spike telling the scoobies off, that too is Buffy.
so, that is why Angel do not see Spike watching them kiss, Spike
retires to the basement of Buffy's heart. like he always do. That
is part of the reason why we haven't seen Spike interact with
none of the scoobies. In Him, he did not speak the whole time.
when he was teaching the potential, how to fight, it wasn't him,
but Buffy alone. didn't you ever wonder why Andrew is not following
Spike around like a puppy dog? he not really talking to Spike
as he would be, if he was actually there. Spike is only there
in Buffy. compare Buffy and Spike interaction in season 6 to the
interaction between them now? you will notice a hugh differents.
so, when the end comes it is Buffy who is wearing the talisman,
but to Buffy it's spike. that is why her hand burn as well. because
the demon part of Buffy (which is Spike) is no more, buffy is
able to leave the hellmouth, and sunnydale behind. When they ask
who did it, and she responds "Spike," no one says anything
because for the whole time Spike was only present to Buffy. Willow
and Dawn has always been nice to Spike in the past. Spike not
really being there, explain there action as well as it explain
Anya's action. why she keep telling them to kill Spike. we also
had not seen spike drink Blood since "never leave me".
why haven't he? Spike feeding ? the first using him? that also
could all been a part of Buffy's mind, unless Spike didn't die
in lurky's cave, but died at the hands of the ubervamp in the
cave. we haven't seen Spike struggle with his soul anymore since
he came back, or rather , since he merge with Buffy. that just
something to think about.
I believe the last hour we will be shown Andrew video tape, which
would explain what happen. *sad*
[> I really hope that that
did not contain 7:22 SPOILERS above -- KdS, 16:30:22 04/21/03
Mon
Please, please luvthistle, mark the freaking spoilers!
[> [> Re: I really hope
that that did not contain 7:22 SPOILERS above -- luvthistle1,
18:23:28 04/21/03 Mon
Spoiler and spec about the finale. It was mark spoiler . and the
finale .actually, it's not going to happen at all like that. but
I did mark it Spoiler and Spec, because I'm speculating about
how it would play out.
[> some possible holes in
the theroy -- norms,
19:33:20 04/21/03 Mon
one: wood can obviusly see spike, why would he get so worked up
about getting his revenge on a hallucenation (sp?)
Two: those inititive guys who removed spikes chip had no reason
to cater to buffy's delusions
Three: in one of the example you cite, (faith in the grave yard)
faith clearly didn't see buffy until she broke up the fight.
Four:your idea seems to hinge on spikes lack of contact with the
scoobies, when infact he had even less contact in season six.
Five: This also hinges on "what she deserves" being
a good thing. at the time (the end of season six) what she "deserved"
was a slow, painful, degrading, shameful death.
P.S. I realize on reflection that most of these (the first three)
don't really seem to puch holes in your theory, but I left them
for the sake of compleatness
[> [> Re: some possible
holes in the theroy -- luvthistle1, 01:10:26 04/22/03 Tue
inititive guys wasn't there. nothing was there. that was all shot
from Buffy point of view. If you recall, the inititive guys where
told to fill the cave with "cement", which would also
explain why they saw fresh bodys, when they should have been none.
I mean after all they close that up in season 4. nothing was there.
Actually, Xander and Spike use to fight a lot in season 6. now
Xander so not say anything. nothing. he interacted more with them
in season 6. even if it was only insults.
But I can trying to answers why would the sits, think that Buffy
is crazy?
Why haven't Xander insulted Spike?
Why did Willow feel she needed Faith,?
Why haven't we seen Spike drink blood, since "never leave
me"
Why did Spike dream he drowning in shoes, in the finale? (buffy's
dream)
Why is Dawn staying clear of Buffy?
Why are they all looking so sad, all the time.
Why did they care more about the mall, instead of the people in
the finale.
If Spike is really dead, and only alive in Buffy's mind. that
would answer all the questions above. which would mean that Buffy
is the one to actually were the amulet,. the demon in her (spike)
dies. and she can go on to live an normal life. rewatch "get
it done"Spike and Buffy are shown in a split screen, to show
them as one. the demon he fighting, is actually the mist.
Something
I thought you would have discussed... -- Majin Gojira, 13:50:28
04/21/03 Mon
Durring the conversation between Spike and Faith in the basement,
a part of their dialogue struck me as interesting.
I wish I could quote directly to make sure I got it right...
Anyway, Spike asks her why she didn't bust out when she had the
power to all along. She tells him it's because she got "Dangerous".
I can't remember the next peice of dailogue, but, if it related
to the topic at hand, it could have great implications. His reaction
to Faith's answer...anyone remember it?
[> The quote is: --
RadiusRS, 22:46:38 04/21/03 Mon
SPIKE: "You had the power to walk away any time. Nothing
to stop you."
FAITH: "I stopped me. I got...dangerous for a while."
SPIKE: "You over it?"
FAITH: (as she takes of her jacket and stretches her arms) "More
or less. I pull for the Good Guys now."
SPIKE: "What's the less?"
FAITH: (coyly) "Usual stuff."
SPIKE: "Such as?"
FAITH: "I was thinking about looking up the guy with the
bullwhip."
(Spike looks at her trying, trying to decide if she's serious)
FAITH: "Loooong incarceration."
Before they were talking about the SITs and Faith mentioned them
being green. Spike mentions he was dangerous after he got his
soul but he's better now and wonders why she waited until Angel
need her before escaping. After this exchange, they start flirting
and Faith goes over to his side, which is when Buffy comes down
the stairs.
I think something happened to Faith in prison (wouldn't it be
great to see, perhaps in comic form or through flashback either
on Angel or a spinoff show, Faith dealing with She- Demons in
prison, saving the day, and gaining the admiration and fear of
the prisoners and guards as a result?), which forced her to be
brutal once more. It was clear on Angel that Faith is determined
not to fall into darkness again, but that she is still insecure
about whether, if pushed, she can resist (much like a junkie).
The wonderful irony of her character is that she has very little
faith in others or herself, and her bonding with Angel, Spike,
and newly re- established connection to Wesley shows that her
salvation begins through others who have walked the path of darkness
and survived (it also helps explain her relationship with the
cheery Mayor). Buffy still resents Faith because she shares the
Slayer power her, and prefers to carry her burden alone. Faith
is a constant reminder that Buffy can and will do something wrong
one day. Buffy's relationship with Spike in Season Six, her inferiority
complex about her superiority complex (an arc Faith echoed in
Angel and will probably continue in the final four episodes),
her confession to Giles about sacrificing Dawn, and her guilt
over sending the SITs to their deaths have cemented this idea
that she might have to commit evil in order to do greater good
("The Mission is what Matters). Faith is a lot greener than
Buffy, though she has had worst suffering than Buffy in many ways
due to her upbringing. Buffy uses this to excuse her contempt
of Faith, all the while talking about being One chosen, and burdened
while Faith has always been around. Joss himself and the fact
that no new Slayer has been called since Buffy died in "The
Gift" shows that the Slayer Line now lies in Faith. This
shows to me that Buffy is in denial about Faith's relevance to
the Slayer Line and the cause, and she is therefore ignoring the
lessons that Faith's trials could teach her. As the season progresses,
Buffy is once more closing herself off from her friends, the very
characteristic that makes her different from all the previous
slayers as has helped her survive for so long. This pride is her
great sin, and the evil she has convinced herself she must someday
commit. If Faith does go bad again, can Buffy kill her in order
to pass the Slayer line on to one of the SITs? She was ready to
do so after Faith came out of her coma. Faith has since grown
and changed...has Buffy?
[> [> Interesting analysis
of how Faith ties into Buffy's current issues. Much agree-age.
-- Masq, 10:17:57 04/22/03 Tue
[> [> [> Something
that just occurred to me... -- LittleBit, 14:54:03 04/22/03
Tue
The Shadowmen told Buffy that what they were doing to her was
what had been done to Sineya to create the First Slayer. If Buffy
had accepted the demonizing, would it, could it, reinstate the
Slayer line in her?
[> [> [> [> Re:
Something that just occurred to me... -- LadyStarlight, 16:12:49
04/22/03 Tue
Now that's an interesting question. I think you could be right,
after all, we've been told repeatedly that Faith now carries the
line. Would that have activated another whole bunch of Potentials,
do you think? Or would the potential just stay with the Potentials?
(okay that may not have made sense, but you know what I mean)
[> [> [> Thanks Masq.
Love how ME parallels many charater's arcs without making it feel
forced. *NT* -- RadiusRS, 21:36:18 04/22/03 Tue
What
is Caleb? (speculations) -- genivive, 15:51:17 04/21/03
Mon
Masq, your review got me to thinking. Caleb is a human, fallen
preacher? Maybe not. How about a fallen angel, like Lucifer. He
said he was past all the God stuff.
[> Re: What is Caleb? (speculations)
-- Rabel Dusk, 16:32:37 04/21/03 Mon
My post pretty much reflects what CrookedMind and others said
in another thread - Caleb as the AntiSlayer. Caleb may be a mirror
image of Buffy, a slayer for FE that has been designed to counter
the strengths of the likes of Buffy and Faith. Dealing with Caleb
using the same methods she has used with past Big Bads will therefore
be counterproductive (like the weapons of the Initiative just
made Adam stronger).
Was Caleb's statement that he had something of Buffy's ever answered?
Maybe what he has is, as the Antislayer, her reflection or shadow.
[> [> Re: What is Caleb?
(speculations) -- MaeveRigan, 18:19:07 04/21/03 Mon
Was Caleb's statement that he had something of Buffy's ever
answered?
Wasn't this question answered in this exchange between Caleb & Buffy?
Buffy: I heard you have something of mine.
Caleb: Well, I do now.
Caleb glances around the room as he says this, so his answer seems
to validate Giles's and Xander's (not to mention Buffy's) "It's
a trap" theory, since Buffy had brought Caleb herself, most
of her friends, and quite a few of the potentials.
[> [> Re: What is Caleb?
(spoilers for further episodes) -- maddog, 10:37:40 04/22/03
Tue
See I always thought he had two things in mind...first off he
said he did just so she'd show up with the potentials...and then
he would really have something of hers...her crew. He could have
done much more damage had they followed the gang. He's waiting.
Either that or he's speaking of that Scythe(sp?) thing I keep
hearing about. If that's such a big part of her final battles
then he's definitely holding something she needs.
[> [> [> I hadn't
heard about it. Until now. Please mark ANY spoilers. -- dream,
13:24:02 04/23/03 Wed
[> [> [> [> Like
you, I missed "spoilers for further episodes" in the
subject and got spoiled by this post *nt* -- RadiusRS, 03:32:43
04/24/03 Thu
[> [> Re: What is Caleb?
(speculations) -- CrookedMind, 18:20:42 04/22/03 Tue
I must say that the "fallen angel" theory has crossed
my mind a time or two as well--anyone who's seen "Dogma"
might pick up the same vibe (yes, I know we're talking completely
different tone of viewing material, but you get the gist). It
was Caleb's conversations and actions with FE that drew me more
towards the concept of "AntiSlayer".
As to comments in this thread about Buffyverse not having a Christian
component . . . would someone in said camp please explain to me
just who the heck is supposedly represented by The Cross that
hangs about Buffy's neck? And while you're at it, please enlighten
me as to why said symbols are quite effective at doing injury
to vamps in the Buffyverse . . .
Just because Joss claims atheism and has chosen not to have Christianity
mentioned at every turn doesn't mean that Buffyverse Earth has
a different religious demographic. ME has steered clear of direct
discussion of ANY mainstream modern religion--they get enough
flack from religious activists WITHOUT going there . . .
[> That would assume
-- Majin Gojira, 06:46:42 04/22/03 Tue
That this all takes place in a "Christian Context",
when every sci-fi/horror/fantasy nerd clearly understands that
Buffy is Lovecraftian in nature. There are no Angels here, bub.
[> Re: What is Caleb? (speculations)
-- Henry, 09:02:28
04/22/03 Tue
Yeah . . . I've been wondering. What exactly is he? He's as strong
as Glory and twice as mean (which almost definitely makes him
human). I *dont* follow spoilers, so I don't know what to make
of it. But I've been wondering.
I agree with a previous post that he's not a fallen angel -- no
angels in the non-Christian Buffy-verse. But I wonder if he's
a more sophisticated riff on Christian theology (with a very subversive
Joss-like twist). Here's my theory:
He's the *incarnation* of the First, just like Christ (in Christian
theology) is the incarnation of God. In other words, he's simultaneously
fully human and fully First. Like Glory and Ben, but seamless,
with no resulting weakness or confusion. It's a trinitarian thing,
withn Caleb as Christ (though I don't know who the Holy Spirit
would be in this little scheme).
What this means is that when Buffy kills him (as I know she will,
though I don't know how) she'll be killing her first human. Nice
way to end the show -- continuing to play with the lines between
human and demon, as Joss has from the start.
Anyway . . . just my two cents.
[> [> Re: What is Caleb?
(speculations) -- maddog, 11:32:08 04/22/03 Tue
Considering you really can't kill evil as a whole I can't see
him as being that in tune with the First. I see this as a man
the First found that was unasumming because of the collar, but
with strong conviction against the side of good. Then the First
just dumped a bunch of power into him and, starting with indirect
things(the bringers and the council), began the master plan.
[> [> Re: What is Caleb?
(speculations) -- disillusioned exile, 12:08:59 04/22/03
Tue
hate to break it to you bud, but we've seen buffy kill more humans
then faith, she just zones it out when it's not an oppertunity
to antagionize someone who steals her spotlight
[> [> [> Re: What
is Caleb? (speculations) -- Wizard, 01:37:39 04/23/03 Wed
I don't know about the zoning-out bit, but Buffy has killed more
people than Faith. The difference is that when Buffy killed the
Knights, it was in battle. Faith killed Finch under the genuine
belief that he was a vamp, but everything after that was murder.
The difference? Situational, to a degree. Killing somebody that
can't fight back is murder or execution. Killing someone that
is attacking you or your loved ones is killing in self-defense.
[> [> [> [> I think
you missed the point. -- disillusioned exile, 18:06:46
04/23/03 Wed
like you said, faith thought finch was a vampire, she tokk a human
life by accident. buffy on the other hand, knew exactly what she
was doing every time she killed someone, right back to throwing
the zookeeper in the hyena pen in 'the pack' and yet buffy gave
the finch incident as an excuse to harass faith, faith didn't
turn evil because she liked killing. she did it to escape the
nagging bimbo.
[> Just like Gwen? --
VampRiley, 18:26:36 04/22/03 Tue
He's human, but there's some difference in his genes that makes
him strong and tough.
VR
[> Re: What is Caleb? (speculations)
-- WickedBuffy (ok, now I'll go), 21:20:50 04/22/03 Tue
I'm not understanding Calebs constant ranting about how unclean
women are, etc - and needing to murder them, saying it's to save
them or whatever. That has to tie in to the Bigger Picture. How?
If Joss just wanted an evil, ranting preacher twisting words around
there were all kinds of points he might have focused on. But he
chose this one. (Not material wealth, the 7 deadly sins or ::koff::
murder.)
Is he just a VERY crazed woman-hating religious fanatic that The
First Evil chose? Calebs focus and strength are remiscent to the
vampire that tested Buffy on her 16th b- day. Unfortunately, there
are real people who are like in OUR Universe, so that parts not
so far-fetched. And we've seen demons with incredible strength
over the years, so Caleb doesn't seem so "unordinary"
for the Buffyverse. He hasn't done anything extraordinary so far.
Then, again -
1) Caleb calls The Bringers "His Boys". He seems to
lead them. The Bringers are the entities who call up The First.
Has Caleb been around since the "metaphysical imbalance"
happened? Was he the one who called The Bringers in order to call
The First? Was the imbalance one that had a special meaning for
Caleb, such that he noticed and set off the chain of events leading
to FEs current status in the Buffyverse? He sure is chummy with
FE ... almost like an FE in training (F.I.T.?) Excited about roleplaying
old murders with FE as if it was a game. And FE going along with
it. Very playful, in a gruesome way.
Does his treatment of women seem familiar? The Shadowmen? They
badly treated a woman (the First Slayer), feeling it was totally
within their rights to do with they wanted with her, all in the
name of what was "right".
Is Caleb shown as a Christian preacher in response to Buffy "rising
from the dead"? A blasphemy?
Buffy didn't want to be "dirtied" by the demon infusion
the Shadowmen wanted her to take. She wanted to stay pure and
human. Now Caleb comes in and focuses on how dirty girls are.
I can't wait to see what happens when Caleb and Anya meet up -
those two also seem like mirror opposites. Anya the ex- demon
who destroyed men in then name women. Caleb destroying dirty women
who tempt men, etc?
heh - and Xander having his moment of triumph with "an eye
for an eye" scene. }:>
[> [> and too much mousse
(speculations) -- WickeBuff, 14:24:12 04/23/03 Wed
[> [> Re: What is Caleb?
(speculations) -- Marianne, 22:31:55 04/23/03 Wed
Oooooh, you got me thinking...
"Jasmine" is a woman...
Caleb hates women....
Maybe FE and whatever being that shall remain nameless are anti-one
another?
Maybe they are different shades of evil? Or maybe not.
Again, wasn't Glory remaining nameless for awhile??? She had to
take form in what's-his-face's body for awhile (how quickly season
5 has left me)...
Sleep deprived ramblings...
Mare
You
want drivel - here's drivel! -- KdS, 16:42:04 04/21/03
Mon
OK, for the last couple of days I've been thinking of Caleb as
"Father Ted Bundy", and today my mind started going
in a really weird direction:
BUFFY, WILLOW, DAWN, and an eye-patched XANDER sit in the Summers
sitting room
XANDER: (hopefully) So, no more bad guys. We can actually
relax a little now?
WILLOW: I sent them to the worst demon dimension I had
the juice to punch through to. Even if they do get back, it'll
take a while. (BUFFY looking depressed) You OK, Buff?
BUFFY: Oh, you know. I just thought we'd got through to
Andrew.
(Cut to a dingy, shabby, sitting room-cum-study. CALEB sits
at a desk, furiously riffling through a spell book. A TUROK-HAHN
sits in an armchair stained with unspeakable mucus and fluids,
staring blankly into space. ANDREW sits on the sofa, bemusedly
examining the gun in his hand. The FIRST EVIL bends over him,
for some reason best known to itself assuming the shape of Wig
Lady from DMP)
ANDREW: Kill the potentials? Now why would I be doing a thing
like that?
EVIL: (cajolingly) Ye will. Ye will ye will yewillyewillyewill.
TUROK-HAHN: (explodes suddenly) DRINK! GIRLS!
CALEB: Shhh. You'll get to drink the girls all right. Just
as soon as you shut up and let me find a spell to get us off this
fecking island!
[> Sorry, SPOILERS for recent
Buffy ep above -- KdS, 16:48:07 04/21/03 Mon
Really embarassing after telling off luvthistle underneath. Sorry
folks.
[> Isn't that Father Jack
Hacket? -- Helen, 01:20:39 04/22/03 Tue
And the FE should have a cup of tea in its non corporeal hand
which it presses upon people indiscriminately.
Could it hold things if the thing was part of its illusion? Must
be poss otherwise clothes would be a problem.
[> [> Re: Isn't that
Father Jack Hacket? -- leslie,
16:10:51 04/22/03 Tue
I think you really need to include the diagram of "reality"
on the outside of the head and "dream" on the inside
in this little sketch. Plus, don't tell me there weren't demons
involved in that wallpaper.
Article:
Buffy the Vampire Slayer Mocks Christian Faith During Holy Week
-- Rufus, 19:04:26 04/21/03 Mon
www.parentstv.org
BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER MOCKS CHRISTIAN FAITH DURING HOLY WEEK
PTC Denounces Show for Anti-Christian Bigotry
Los Angeles, CAóToday the Parents Television Council denounced
UPN and the creative team behind Buffy the Vampire Slayer for
insulting Christians during this, the most holy week of the year.
Tuesday nightís episode of Buffy the Vampire Slayer includes
a character, Caleb, who kills his followers, mocks the priestly
robes, grossly manipulates Christian scripture, seduces girls
and then kills them.
The series, which is known for displaying scenes of graphic violence
and inappropriate sex to its young teen audience, mocked the Christian
faith during Holy Week.
ìThe timing of this episode was no accident. It was a bigoted
slap in the face to Christians everywhere to include an evil priest
who murders people while distorting scripture and making a mockery
of the Eucharist during Holy Week,î said Brent Bozell, President
of the Parents Television Council. ìHoly Week is a time
when the networks couldóand shouldóair programming
that uplifts and celebrates people of all faiths. Instead, UPN
chose to degrade the Christian faith with this highly inappropriate
portrayal of a priest.î
Excerpts from the PTC Transcript of the 4/15/03 Episode of Buffy
the Vampire Slayer on UPN
Caleb, [character portraying a priest] ìDrink of this,
for it is my blood.î He drinks. ìYa know, I always
loved the story of the last supper. The body and blood of Christ
becoming rich, red wine. I recall as a boy, though, I couldn't
help but think, what if you were at the Last Supper and you ordered
the white? A nice oaky chardonnay or white zin. I mean, would
he make that out of his lymph for someone?î
Caleb burns a girl with the cigarette lighter and then stabs her
while saying, ìNow thatís the cleansing vibe, Hallelujah!î
ìUPN has clearly crossed the line with this anti-Christian
bigotry,î added Bozell. ìThere is absolutely no reason
to insult people of faith in this way, but Hollywood producers
apparently donít seem to care about mocking the Christian
faith.î
[> Short Rant..... --
Rufus, 19:11:46 04/21/03 Mon
Give me a F**king break!!!!!!!! What next a jihad? Turn Whedon
into the Rushdie of Television? If anyone's faith is so small,
so shakey that Buffy the Vampire Slayer can destroy it, then I
have to wonder just how faithful they are. As a Christian I took
no offence at anything the show has given us. These parents have
control of the remote and they can choose not to watch the show.
I would rather have BTVS allowed to criticize religion, than a
world that is so repressive that we don't dare question anything.
[> [> Amen, Rufus!
-- HonorH, 19:24:58 04/21/03 Mon
However tired I think the Southern serial-killer preacher thing
is, it never occurred to me to be offended. Caleb was so over-the-top
and obviously evil that it's evident to me that he's not meant
to be anything other than what he is: an evil man who hates women
and mocks God. I'm more offended by so-called Christians who choose
to hate in God's name and co-opt Jesus for their political cause
du jour.
[> [> [> From the
movie Dogma -- Rufus, 19:45:05 04/21/03 Mon
Where Rufus is a tall, skinny, black guy......
From the Shooting Script for Dogma....if you haven't seen the
movie it's about angels trying to undo the universe cause they're
pissed off God kicked them out of heaven. Rufus is played by Chris
Rock....and the character is the 13th apostle......oh it will
take forever to describe this movie, rent the DVD...
RUFUS
He still digs humanity, but it bothers Him to see the shit
that gets carried out in His name - wars, bigotry, but especially
the factioning of all the religions. He said humanity took a good
idea and, like always, built a belief structure on it.
BETHANY
Having beliefs isn't good?
RUFUS
I think it's better to have ideas. You can change an idea.
Changing a belief is trickier. Life should malleable and progressive;
working from idea to idea permits that. Beliefs anchor you to
certain points and limit growth; new ideas can't generate.
Life becomes stagnant. That was one thing the Man hated - still
life. He wanted everyone to be as enthralled with living as He
was. Maybe it had something to do with knowing when He was going
to die. but Christ had this vitality that I've never encountered
in another person since. You know what I'm saying?
I loved that movie so I guess I'm going to that special hell after
all....;)
[> [> [> [> If
it's any consolation... -- Haecceity, 21:34:51 04/21/03
Mon
...you'll have lots of good company in the "special hell".
I know that as a person who comes to this board in celebration
of the freedom of ideas generated by art( and a fellow "Dogma"
fan), I've got reserve seating! And just think of the Chock-full-O-Metaphysical-Goodness
Buffy essays we can write through all eternity.
[> [> [> [> Right
there with ya, Ruf -- Vickie, 22:21:29 04/21/03 Mon
Dammned for love of a film. Or saved?
At least I'll have good company.
[> [> [> [> [>
Which special hell would that be? -- MaeveRigan, 05:08:30
04/22/03 Tue
If it's the one with all the people who talk in the theater...never
mind! ;-)
[> [> [> [> [>
[> The heavy duty one with Nixon and Britney Spears ;o)
-- yabyumpan, 05:44:05 04/22/03 Tue
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Hey! Stop pickin' on Britney! ... ;-) -- OnM,
06:21:34 04/22/03 Tue
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Nah, the one with Air-Conditioning cause I'll be there
a loooooong time....;) -- Rufus, 10:48:52 04/22/03 Tue
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Hell with Air-Conditioning? -- CW, 11:23:05
04/22/03 Tue
That's Arizona!
I'll probably have to turn on my AC before the month is out. ;o)
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> Re: Hell with Air-Conditioning? -- Rendyl,
15:17:59 04/22/03 Tue
Is it Dante who has Satan frozen in ice? Perhaps the fiery burn
of frostbite? ;)
(at least you have AC..sigh..I just have fans and it is already
warm enough to swim here)
Ren
[> [> [> Re: Amen,
Rufus! -- MaeveRigan, 19:48:06 04/21/03 Mon
I admit, Caleb bothers me, mainly because I knew how nitwits like
the PTC folk would react. Why can't they get a clue?
Jihad? For these people, Joss already is the metaphorical
Rushdie of TV--except that they don't really understand what that
means, because the term "metaphor" is a mystery to them.
It's sad. Where were they last year when Xander saved the world
with love, eh? Nope, they completely missed that one because they
were all outraged by Buffy and Spike bringing down the house or
the reunion of Willow and Tara and stopped watching.
[> [> [> [> Is
it true that 'Amen' derives from Amen-Ra, the Egyptian sungod?
-- MsGiles, source of potentially misleading web trivia, 07:07:22
04/22/03 Tue
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: Is it true that 'Amen' derives from Amen-Ra, the Egyptian
sungod? -- Darby, 08:27:28 04/22/03 Tue
From the Online Etymological Dictionary -
http://www.etymonline.com/
amen - O.E.[Old English], from L.L. [Late Latin} amen, from Gk.
amen, from Heb., "truth," used adverbially as an expression
of agreement (cf. verily, surely in the same sense).
The Egyptian connection is probably from someone's wishful assumption
- and once it's on the Web, it takes on a life of its own.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Darby's right -- Scroll, 11:19:02 04/22/03 Tue
"Amen" just means "so be it" in Hebrew, what
people say at the end of prayers to signify that they are in accordance
to what the person praying just said. Or as I like to put it:
Friend: "Our Father who art in heaven...."
Me: "Word!"
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> sounded intriguing but conspiracy theory-ish, this
makes more sense, thanks! -- MsGiles, 03:04:44 04/23/03
Wed
[> [> [> Haven't you
heard -- JBone, 19:57:39 04/21/03 Mon
all southern men, (do I include myself since I now live the south?
Oh sure, what the hell), we are all evil, serial killing, bible
quoters. Now, if you'll excuse me, I need to go do some hateful
acts in (G)god's name.
Party on! [Bill And Ted EA:1]
[> [> [> [> Party
on, dude! -- Honorificus (Who's Not Southern, But Is A Belle),
21:16:49 04/21/03 Mon
I knew there was something I liked about y'all.
[> [> [> [> [>
If Honorificus is Belle, then I'd hate to see the Beast. :)
-- Gyrus, 10:24:25 04/22/03 Tue
[> [> [> [> Re:
Haven't you heard -- Gyrus, 10:29:50 04/22/03 Tue
If Southerners are so bad, why do we keep electing them President?
Or maybe that's not a good argument...
[> [> [> [> [>
He's NOT a Southerner. -- Solitude1056, 10:44:49 04/22/03
Tue
He's a Texan. Big, BIG difference.
Hmph.
(And the Bushes aren't really Texan, anyway - they're more like
transplanted East Coasters who took a left turn at Mardi Gras.
If you want a real Texan President, look no further than
LBJ. I mean, any man who says, "Don't piss in the soup, we've
all gotta eat" - now that's a Texan.)
[> [> [> [> [>
[> There hasn't been a Southern President since Carter.
Which isn't a good example...sigh... -- Random, a real Southerner
who doesn't count Clinton as ilk, 10:04:48 04/23/03 Wed
[> [> Maybe they can
finally get their wish and get "Buffy" cancelled . .
. -- d'Herblay, 00:45:44 04/22/03 Tue
[> [> [> Don't Joke
About This -- Merlyn, 02:10:56 04/22/03 Tue
http://www.petitiononline.com/4101998/petition.html- Some looney
actually posted this on usenet calling for the cancellation of
the show in accordance with biblical "prophecy.
[> [> [> [> Re:
-- aliera, 04:46:37 04/22/03 Tue
Humour is a time honored method of dealing with human-caused problems,
Merlyn... If you're not familar with D'H's posts (and if not they
are well worth seeking out in the archives!) and concerned about
his intent perhaps you could ask for clarification first? I don't
wish to offend you either; I just think you may have misconstrued
his point ;- )
[> [> [> [> and
they got 43 signatures! WOW!!! -- M., 09:25:11 04/22/03
Tue
Check out the comments made by the people who signed. It will
really put this "petition" in the proper context.
Please if anyone is tempted to sign just to make a stupid comment,
please don't! There are obviously some people who don't get the
joke.
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: and they got 43 signatures! WOW!!! -- maddog, 09:52:03
04/22/03 Tue
I tried...with very logical comments...not really a rant...but
it wouldn't post...I think the owner screens them or somthing.
[> [> [> [> so
they'll probably think... -- anom, 14:31:51 04/22/03 Tue
...when the show ends because it was going to anyway, that they
forced its cancellation!
[> Re: Article: Buffy the
Vampire Slayer Mocks Christian Faith During Holy Week -- LeeAnn,
01:40:25 04/22/03 Tue
Think of how angry they would be if they really followed Buffy
and realized that a vampire was playing the part of Christ this
season.
[> [> Re: Article: Buffy
the Vampire Slayer Mocks Christian Faith During Holy Week
-- maddog, 09:34:01 04/22/03 Tue
This season...what about season 5? Sacraficing yourself to save
mankind from eternal torture. The significance of the blood...the
ressurection in season 6. Yeah at least then they'd have a minor
gripe (though many a hero's journey in literature goes through
the same storyline and Joss being an atheist I'm guessing he got
much of that from secular writings and not the bible).
If they payed attention, did their homework about this season,
they'd see that a minister gone bad, not that we have any of those
in the world :) This man who one would think would fight on Buffy's
side is against her. He's been seduced by what seems to him a
much larger power. And someone like this is exactly what Buffy
isn't expecting, providing for a perfect right hand man of the
First. Hell, the only reason he's probably southern is probably
a combination of how much creepier he sounds when he's misinterpreting
scripture along with the fact that Nathan just has a kick ass
southern accent. Course, that's just my opinion.
[> Ol' Caleb is Everything
Christianity is NOT -- Elabou,
04:59:30 04/22/03 Tue
As a christian, I'm not offended by Caleb because he represents
the everything Christianity isn't but a few false folks claims
it is.
[> Just sent it to Stardestroyer.net
-- Majin Gojira, 06:44:24 04/22/03 Tue
They'll likely tear it appart for the bull it is. It's why I like
um.
[> [> Linkage --
Majin Gojira, 06:53:52 04/22/03 Tue
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=18355
The Site God, Darth Wong, has already responded...
[> Re: Article: Buffy the
Vampire Slayer Mocks Christian Faith During Holy Week -- botitas, 11:53:54 04/22/03
Tue
Sorry if someone's allready brought this up, but work and school
are a bitch and I haven't the time to read all the post. ANYWAY,
I kept waiting for Caleb to say what if they drank BEER at the
last supper.
[> Whoa, whoa..regrouping
here,,,Re: Article: Buffy,etc -- Rendyl, 11:59:38 04/22/03
Tue
Here I am, charging in where angels fear to tread in an attempt
to point out a couple of things.
The only thing the PTC has done wrong (well aside from the whole
assuming it is only a Christian Holy Week since like...hello..Passover)
is to assume parents want or need to be told which shows to watch
and not to watch. If you are a decent parent you already watch
the shows your kids watch and have determined which ones are appropriate.
You don't need the PTC holding your hand or covering your eyes.
As annoying as it may be those folks do have a right to their
opinions. Maybe many of them were shocked and offended by the
episode. It doesn't make them stupid, it just makes them..well..upset.
If most of us can be blase about it that is great, but we shouldnt
be screaming down the throat of someone else just because they
can't.
The petition to cancel the shows so Jesus won't be mad at us was
kind of..cough..odd...Shouldn't the author of such a petition
actually have read the Bible? I am not trying to be rude to him
(although the irony of his name being Micheal Smith will keep
me giggling the rest of the day) but Jesus (as the scriptures
paint him) was not exactly a violent man. As long as ME is not
selling Buffy coffee mugs in nearby churches and synagogues we
are probably safe.
One last point, I love NF. I have been a big fan of his since
wayyyy back in his soap days but I have to bust bubbles here.
He only has a so-so southern accent. ;)
Ren -cause like..somebody -had- to say it-
[> [> Re: Whoa, whoa..regrouping
here,,,Re: Article: Buffy,etc -- maddog, 12:17:41 04/22/03
Tue
Everybody has a right to their opinion..no doubt...but the opinion
should be an INFORMED one, and that's not what they're doing.
They're taking ONE ISOLATED episode of Buffy, seeing it's content
reminds them it's Easter week and they get all up in arms because
of the content. That's not informed. Informed would be to find
out what's going on in the show. Because they'd realize 2 things...one,
it's a season(or in this case series) finale plot and seasons
wind down at the end of April, early May. And secondly, if they
knew the plot they'd realize that he's the perfect character for
the position...it's not like we don't have men high in the church
pulling stupid stunts.
[> [> [> Re: Whoa,
whoa..regrouping here,,,Re: Article: Buffy,etc -- Rendyl,
13:38:38 04/22/03 Tue
People have emotional reactions to many things. We can debate
and discuss the intellectual implications of Buffy into infinity
but good tv is also supposed to provoke an emotional response.
Obviously for the PTC this episode did.
You cannot force people to be rational. There are issues that
push my buttons and pretty much reduce me (and many others) to
nothing but an emotional response. And it is okay. No laws against
flying with your gut instead of your mind.
(Okay, okay, unlike the PTC most of us here would take the time
to become informed on whatever set us off before posting a diatribe...)
But I was not arguing whether the PTC were informed or not or
even whether they were right or not. All I said was they sound
very upset. The episode may have deeply offended them. It is okay
if they got offended.
(I keep trying but I still have problems understanding why every
viewpoint in the cosmos is tolerated here -except- for the fundamentalist
christians.)
Knocking them because they didn't take the time to research is
one thing and I have no prob with that, but knocking them because
they felt offended at all is just extremely rude and condescending.
Ren
[> [> OT: Jesus and violence
-- Corwin of Amber, 13:49:27 04/22/03 Tue
Luke 22
36 And he said unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him
take it, and likewise a wallet; and he that hath none, let him
sell his cloak, and buy a sword.
Jesus can't have been THAT much against violence, if he was advising
his apostles to buy swords. :)
[> [> [> Re: OT: Jesus
and violence -- Rendyl, 14:53:37 04/22/03 Tue
Interesting scripture choice considering the holiday. :)
Yes, he did. I think he may have been worried for them since he
goes on to tell them the prophecies surrounding him are about
to come to pass.
When he is later approached by Judas, the temple guards and priests
who have come to arrest him, Jesus stops the disciples from resisting.
(going so far as to heal a chopped off ear.)
Of course he had faced his moment of truth in the garden and seemed
resigned to his fate. I think that particular incident is isolated,
rather than a good indicator of his character. During the time
he is preaching (and before) there was scattered resistance to
the Roman occupation. He was never a part of that. (or if he was
it is not recorded)
Ren
[> [> [> [> Re:
OT: Jesus and violence -- MissouriGirl, 17:07:31 04/22/03
Tue
I don't have a Bible here with me to check the reference, but
I believe this passage is about self-defense from the bandits
that were common on the roads in those days. Jesus had previously
sent 70 of his followers out on a short-term mission trip, instructing
them NOT to take a purse or a sword. Now Jesus is saying that
from now on Christians can take a sword to protect themselves
on the road. I have always taken this passage to mean that it
is OK to protect your own life if you have the ability and you
choose to do so.
[> [> The problem is
that the PTC aren't about telling parents which shows to watch
-- KdS, 14:09:33 04/22/03 Tue
If you look at the PTC's website, their whole position is that
everything, regardless of scheduling time, even last thing in
the evening, on a mainstream network should be suitable for the
whole family right down to the toddlers. On their FAQ they specifically
say that they believe that anything unsuitable for children should
be permitted only on subscription channels. That's a very extreme
and IMO indefensible position.
[> [> [> Re: The problem
is that the PTC aren't about telling parents which shows to watch
-- Rendyl, 15:14:21 04/22/03 Tue
I don't agree with them and (as I have said many times in the
past) I think the parents should take responsibility for what
their kids watch. I do however understand the frustration behind
what they are doing.
When it gets to the point that your kids just don't watch tv anymore
because you can't trust what they are going to see you begin to
get a little annoyed. Even at our house we have pretty much given
up on tv for our 8 year old and dont watch until she is asleep.
Yes there are other things we can do (reading, videos, games,
swimming, ect) but it would be nice to all actually watch tv once
in a while.
And once again I have to say, they have the right to this opinion/position
no matter how extreme. That they want to force it down everyone
elses throat is the only problem I have with it.
Ren
[> [> [> [> What
I think is funny is that -- dms, 06:59:00 04/23/03 Wed
the PTC apparently haven't noticed that a vampire is (IMO) being
set up by Joss as the show's Christ figure. Forget about Caleb,
what about Spike?
On the
Impossibility of Staying Unspoiled -A Request of the Spolied
-- Calvin, 12:48:38 04/22/03 Tue
So, I'm reading Gregg Easterbrook's column on the web. He's smart,
likes football, a good deal all around. He is talking about his
"mocking mock draft", and sure enough, #21 is Buffy
Summers. He says something like, "According to the bootleg
script of the upcoming "Buffy" series finale episode
now making the rounds on the Internet..." then goes on to
say something about the show. What, I can't read ESPN now? Ye
Gods. I have a question for all you spoiler whores - is this true?
Just curious.
http://espn.go.com/page2/s/tmq/030422.html
Thanks,
Calvin
PS - Also on the list is some guy named "Josh Whedon".
I have no idea who that is.
[> Oh yeah - no spoilers
in the post, just a link to a potential spoiler -- Calvin,
12:51:56 04/22/03 Tue
[> Re: On the Impossibility
of Staying Unspoiled -A Request of the Spolied -- dub, 16:37:15
04/22/03 Tue
Nothing is certain, but what you have read on ESPN is correct.
However, it's pretty much a throw-away line, rather than a real
plot point.
[> [> Thanks, dub.
-- Calvin, 18:44:36 04/22/03 Tue
Tactics
and strategy, BTVS style. (Spoilers through Dirty Girls) --
Just George, 13:38:40 04/22/03 Tue
Dirty Girls made me think about tactics and strategy, BTVS style.
Tactics
The results of Buffy's raid on the preacher were horrible. But
were they the result of bad tactics or of "the fortunes of
war"?
Buffy's plan was actually more complete than most of the Scooby's
encounters/attacks.
She protected her rear. Willow (who can cast force fields) and
Giles (who has legitimate authority in the minds of the potentials)
were left in charge of any potentials not on the raid.
Buffy's raiding party included her strongest fighters: Buffy,
Spike, Faith, Xander, and a gaggle of the most experienced potentials.
This is more firepower than nearly any attack in BTVS history.
No witches, but plenty of super strength and fighting experience.
Once Buffy found the location, she split the group intelligently.
Each group contained someone super strong. The team with the most
experienced fighters went in. The second (but still strong) team
was kept in reserve with clear instructions to guarded Buffy's
team's back, and kept containment if the enemy tied to flee.
Once inside the target building, Buffy's team encountered Bringers.
This was the kind of foe Buffy expected. And the potentials did
a good job of protecting themselves and taking down Bringers.
The second team responded in good time and had enough firepower
(Xander's shot especially) to finish the first phase of the fight
effectively. There were no casualties in the initial encounter.
Then Calib appeared. He was much more powerful than anyone expected
(at least more powerful than this unspoiled viewer expected).
He took down Buffy, Spike, and Faith with what seemed like single
blows. This obviously turned the tables on the fight. Buffy's
team focused on Calib but were ineffective. This gave the Bringers
a chance to recover. Calib did the vast majority of the damage.
He caused all the casualties but one as I remember. By the time
Buffy recovered, the damage was done. Buffy and both groups retreated
with their casualties. The raid was a failure.
The Question
The question I have been pondering is: Was this a failure of tactics?
I think this boils down to the question: was Calib's power foreseeable?
Buffy knew the encounter might be a trap. She went in with her
eyes open, and with a strong reserve to respond in case it was
a trap. Her plan was to move fast, with what she thought was sufficient
firepower, in order to keep the enemy from having time to lay
an effective trap.
The trap itself effectively consisted of a single individual.
The Bringers were never the problem. The potential's fighting
prowess and the timely intervention of the reserves kept them
at bay. Even if the trap had included a number of uber-vamps,
Buffy could reasonably assume from her own experience that two
Slayers and Spike could hold their own.
The question then comes down to, should Buffy have planned on
the trap including a single individual that could lay out two
slayers and a legendary vampire warrior with three blows? The
Scoobies have encountered supremely powerful enemies before. Glory
was one. Maybe Adam fits this category. Maybe not. Others with
similar physical power? None come to mind. Given Glory's uniqueness,
it seems unreasonable for Buffy to assume that every encounter
might include a 'Glory level' enemy.
But how can Buffy's plan have been reasonable given how badly
it turned out? Multiple deaths, a crippling injury, and a demoralizing
retreat. Probably the worst defeat in Scooby Gang history. How
could a reasonable plan lead to such carnage?
Some Background
In the PBS series, War, Gwynne Dyer interviewed an Israeli tank
commander. The commander told of leading a group of tanks advancing
into a small strategic valley. In the center of the valley was
a village, the only cover in the valley. Whichever side occupied
the village would control the valley. The commander knew that
Syrian tanks were racing toward the valley as well. Whoever controlled
the village would have a tremendous advantage in the coming clash.
The commander had two obvious options:
He could wait and see if the Syrians were in the village (via
a foot patrol or air recon). However, by the time he got the information
the Syrian's could probably occupy the village. Once the Syrians
occupied the village, the Israeli tank commander's unit would
take casualties in a future battle attacking an enemy who was
under cover and lying in wait.
Or the commander could take the chance that the Syrians hadn't
gotten to the village yet. If he rushed down and took the village
before the Syrians got there, he could have a significant advantage
and reduce his own casualties in any future fight. But if the
Syrians were already there, the Israeli tank commander's unit
could get wiped out attacking across open ground against an unseen
opponent.
There is no perfect answer. Wait and the commander's unit will
take casualties in a difficult attack. Go and the commander's
unit will either have a great advantage or risk getting wiped
out. The answer that a commander chooses is based on their culture,
experience, training, and personal style. The US Military terms
this a "calculated risk".
Buffy's History
Buffy's culture and experience told her that she had sufficient
fighting power to take on almost any foe she had ever encountered.
Seven years of history informed Buffy that she would probably
win the encounter, especially given the fighters she was bringing
along. That history also informed Buffy that the chances for deaths
or crippling injuries among the non-supernatural types was very
slim. It had never happened before. Why should it happen this
time?
In my mind, Buffy's tactics were quite reasonable. It is only
the outcome that is horrific.
And the Israeli tank commander? He advanced to the village. His
history and training told him that boldness was more often rewarded
than punished. But not this time. The Syrian's were in the village
and his unit took heavy losses.
Strategy
However, if Buffy's tactics were reasonable, then her strategy
may be called into question. She is treating the potentials as
soldiers. Soldiers are expendable. Potential Slayers should not
be expendable.
It is reasonable that the potentials be trained as fighters. The
Bringers have been attacking potentials. The First wants to have
them all killed. Of course it makes sense to train them to access
their "potential" so they can defend themselves against
attack.
However, the potentials are a uniquely valuable resource, they
are the future of the Slayer line. If they are lost in battle
the First wins! Just because the potentials look like soldiers
doesn't mean they should be treated like soldiers.
Strategically, I think it is reasonable that the potentials should
help defend themselves and each other. Training and protecting
casa-Summers makes sense. They can't effectively run away. As
HonorH pointed out in a fanfic, the First will take the fight
to them if they run.
Risking the potentials on the attack makes less sense. They are
a finite resource and must be husbanded. The potentials can, and
should, stay on the defensive.
This doesn't mean that Buffy and the other Scoobies should stay
on the defensive. They will ultimately need to go on the offensive
to defeat the First. I suspect with their recent experience of
defeat, Buffy and Co. will be risk averse. This is probably a
mistake. They do need to find out more about Calib and their other
potential enemies. However, in the Buffyverse, boldness has been
more often rewarded than punished.
-JG
[> just to play devils advocate
-- norms, 13:59:19 04/22/03 Tue
very good points, a much better analysis then the one I was formulating.
however, in defense of those who this buffy screwed up, two things
ONE: this is the thrid time by my count buffy has blundered into
a trap. and it was only by sheer luck that homebase wasn't attacked,
which would have been even more devestating
TWO: building off the first one, buffy was never a rocket scientist,
but those seven years you mentioned should have also told her
that no one set's out the bait before the trap is set, once you
take that into account buffy's attack was reckless, arrogant,
wastful, and inexcusably stupid.
just to offer a counter point.
[> [> Re: just to play
devils advocate -- Just George, 15:16:08 04/22/03 Tue
norms: ONE: this is the third time by my count Buffy has blundered
into a trap. And it was only by sheer luck that home base wasn't
attacked, which would have been even more devastating.
Question: Which 3 traps are you thinking of?
BTW, Buffy did protect her home base. Willow & Giles are not chopped
liver.
norms: TWO: building off the first one, Buffy was never a rocket
scientist, but those seven years you mentioned should have also
told her that no one set's out the bait before the trap is set,
once you take that into account Buffy's attack was reckless, arrogant,
wasteful, and inexcusably stupid.
Agreed that moving fast wasn't a great reason to act then. On
the other hand, I think that Buffy knew it might be a trap and
thought she had enough firepower to win anyway.
Reckless? Maybe, but such reckless behavior has been rewarded
in the past.
Arrogant? She had plenty of reason to expect success.
Wasteful? A strategic analysis I'd agree with.
Inexcusably Stupid? Nope, I think it was a logical outgrowth of
Buffy's history and training.
Thanks for the feedback.
-JG
[> [> [> Re: just
to play devils advocate -- norms, 15:58:48 04/22/03 Tue
Question: Which 3 traps are you thinking of?
episode 2.01 When She Was Bad: buffy goes to fight vamps alone
when she knew it was a lure.
episode 2.22 Becoming part 1: she does the EXACT same thing.
episode 5.22 The Gift: she thinks she has glory on the ropes when
in reality glory is just trying to destract her.
and off the top of my head I think episode 1.06 The Pack: is worth
mentioning, it wasn't a set trap but it falls well into buffy's
pattern of leaving the rear unguarded, Willow would be hard pressed
to fend off anything more powerful then a horde of harbingers
without going over the edge. Giles I just don't trust. the potentials
they left behind were left behind because they weren't strong
enough fighters. I rest my case.
[> [> [> [> Re:
just to play devils advocate -- Dochawk, 16:53:19 04/22/03
Tue
I would add (and I can't remember the episode) the time Buffy
attacked the Mayor to get the Box of Gavrock. She planned well
there, but forgot to protect her rear and lost Willow.
But I think even her motivation in this case was wrong. "I've
got something of yours" There was obviously something she
didn't know and she should have spent some time finding out. But
part of her motivation was to prove to Giles that she didn't need
any more teaching, so she refused his advice. Her ego was far
too involved in this decision making.
[> [> [> [> Re:
just to play devils advocate -- Just George, 16:53:49 04/22/03
Tue
You are right about WSWB and Becoming Part 1. In both cases Buffy
was under emotional distress. But in both cases she made bad calls.
In the Gift I think Buffy made the right call. She couldn't have
saved Dawn without defeating Glory first. Plus, she hoped that
one of the Scoobies could save Dawn (Any of them could have released
Dawn, only Buffy could engage Glory).
And as you say, The Pack wasn't a trap.
We'll have to agree to disagree about Dirty Girls. I think Willow
and Giles were effective protection. You don't. YMMV.
-JG
[> [> [> [> [>
When in doubt, take the witch. -- yez, 08:30:50 04/23/03
Wed
Just wanted to throw out there that, tactically, taking Willow
with her this time (and leaving behind some muscle) would've made
more sense, as she had no idea what she was up against, and logically,
because of Caleb's affiliation with the First, Buffy should've
assumed that she'd be coming up against something powerful --
and that she wouldn't likely know the nature of that power. So
Willow might've come in quite handy.
As there was no set timeline for her enemy to work with -- he
wouldn't know when his messenger would regain consciousness or
when Buffy would come to him -- this time (unlike in Buffy's history)
there was less likelihood that the enemy could launch a precise
attack on the Summers house.
Although, with the sucky scouting job that Buffy and Faith did
where all they ascertained was that they'd found a Bringers lair,
not how many were in there, who else might be in there, what the
layout was, what they were doing in there, etc., it's entirely
possible that the enemy could've had the Sumemrs house staked
out just waiting for Buffy to leave. But if that was true, then
when both slayers went out scouting would've been the perfect
opportunity to strike -- yet no strike came. So back to my previous
point.
yez
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Re: When in doubt, take the witch. -- Just George,
17:17:30 04/23/03 Wed
Swapping Faith and Willow is sort of "six of one, half dozen
of another" in this case.
Willow and her magic might be very useful in a situation with
an unknown enemy.
Faith might not be as good as Willow at defending an entire household
full of potentials.
Plus:
Buffy need to see if Faith would follow her. Now she knows Faith
will.
Willow has been spooked about using offensive magic around the
First, but she has successfully defended the entire house.
I can see reasons for either call.
-JG
[> [> [> [> [>
No, she was right in Becoming 1 -- Sophist, 08:37:11
04/23/03 Wed
For 3 reasons:
1. Angel had proved that he would kill in order to bait her; his
threat had to be taken seriously.
2. Buffy had no possible way to know that he wanted Giles. In
fact, Angel did not know about the re-souling spell.
3. Leaving Kendra to guard was plenty of firepower given the risks.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Re: No, she was right in Becoming 1 -- Just George,
17:20:45 04/23/03 Wed
Good point. I was always surprised how easily Kendra was beaten.
Buffy thought Kendra was as capable as herself. If that were true
Kendar would have been enough firepower to protect the group.
Unfortunately Buffy was wrong. But I don't think she was stupid
wrong, just "fortunes of war" wrong.
-JG
[> [> [> [> Re:
just to play devils advocate -- LittleBit, 00:14:07 04/23/03
Wed
I have to disagree to an extent about Becoming, Part 1. Yes, she
went out in response to Angel's immolation-o-gram, but she left
Kendra, the current Slayer back at the library with the
others, charged with keeping them safe. I don't see this as a
blunder on Buffy's part, so much as having perhaps too much faith
that Kendra was up to the task.
[> Great points (Spoilers
for DG) -- Sophist, 14:03:37 04/22/03 Tue
I completely agree about the tactics. The only question is whether
a quick search by Giles or Willow might have revealed important
information about Caleb.
As for the strategy, there is a great deal of logic to protecting
the Potentials (or at least making sure that a minimum of one
is left standing at the end). Part of that protection, however,
has to include self-defense. In order to be capable of self-defense,
the Potentials must have actual experience. As long as the forseeable
risk was reasonable (Bringers), exposing the Potentials to actual
combat seems like an appropriate way to gain that experience.
You left out the retreat, though. What happened to Faith?????
[> [> Re: Great points
(Spoilers for DG) -- Just George, 15:24:33 04/22/03 Tue
Sophist: I completely agree about the tactics. The only question
is whether a quick search by Giles or Willow might have revealed
important information about Caleb.
Good point. Buffy was spoiling for a fight and probably rushed
things a bit. If Willow had said, "give me half an hour on
the net before you go," I'll bet Buffy would have said OK.
Sophist: As for the strategy, there is a great deal of logic
to protecting the Potentials (or at least making sure that a minimum
of one is left standing at the end). Part of that protection,
however, has to include self-defense. In order to be capable of
self-defense, the Potentials must have actual experience. As long
as the foreseeable risk was reasonable (Bringers), exposing the
Potentials to actual combat seems like an appropriate way to gain
that experience.
Blooding the potentials is not a bad idea. However, taking them
on routine patrols (emphasis on the routine) would probably have
accomplished this at less risk.
Sophist: You left out the retreat, though. What happened to
Faith?????
Spike was right to call retreat. Though Buffy could have continued
to engage Calib while everyone else got out.
I assumed Faith got out. Did I miss something?
-JG
[> [> [> Re: Great
points (Spoilers for DG) -- Sophist, 16:20:07 04/22/03
Tue
The last we saw of Faith, she was lying on the ground. When the
episode ended at the hospital and with Buffy walking alone, we
did not see Faith. I couldn't tell if they just didn't show us
to her or if she was left behind somehow.
[> Re: Tactics and strategy,
BTVS style. (Spoilers through Dirty Girls) -- Traveler, 14:40:37
04/22/03 Tue
Buffy did use excellent tactics once she decided to spring the
trap, but I think it was that original decision that has been
called into question. It was shown to be a decision based on arrogance
as much as tactics, when she casually dismissed Gile's concerns.
It's true that Buffy has always had a "charge into the fray"
attitude, but it has gotten her into trouble on many occasions.
Anybody remember Glory? The first thing Buffy did was to go fight
it out woman to woman, and she got beat down. At the end of the
season, she won in large part because she knew exactly what she
was up against and planned accordingly. This time around, she
had no idea who she was dealing with or what form the trap might
take. It could have been worse. Caleb could have just blown them
up like he did the Watcher's council. Good thing he's so sadistic,
or most of them would be dead by now. And why did she do all this?
Because Caleb might have something of hers.
[> [> Agree -- history
supported more caution. -- yez, 15:18:35 04/22/03 Tue
Nice post, Just George. I'm with Traveler, though, in that, tactically,
it was well-done, but strategically, it was a mistake. I also
think it was a mistake that could've been avoided based on the
history.
Just George wrote:
"Buffy's culture and experience told her that she had sufficient
fighting power to take on almost any foe she had ever
encountered. Seven years of history informed Buffy that she would
probably win the encounter, especially given the
fighters she was bringing along. That history also informed Buffy
that the chances for deaths or crippling injuries
among the non-supernatural types was very slim. It had never happened
before. Why should it happen this time?
In my mind, Buffy's tactics were quite reasonable. It is only
the outcome that is horrific."
There's another side to the points you note above. While Buffy
has triumphed over almost all her foes, her history also shows
that just when she thinks she's seen/faced it all, something worse
can -- and will -- come along. Also, lately she's learned that
her most recent foe has been using very different methods of confrontation,
very different "weapons." In other words, it seemed
logical that the First would be bringing in something stronger
than she'd seen before.
Not only that, but has Buffy ever won a major battle with just
"brawn"? Battle tactics aside, research and knowledge
have almost always played a critical part in her successes, haven't
they? And almost every big win has come after figuring out what
the Big Bad was up to -- not rushing in blindly, which is essentially
what she did this time.
And it wasn't just Giles' concerns that Buffy ignored. All the
Scoobs were basically saying, "This really seems like a trap."
yez
[> [> [> Re: Agree
-- history supported more caution. -- Just George, 15:37:14
04/22/03 Tue
yez : There's another side to the points you note above. While
Buffy has triumphed over almost all her foes, her history also
shows that just when she thinks she's seen/faced it all, something
worse can -- and will -- come along. Also, lately she's learned
that her most recent foe has been using very different methods
of confrontation, very different "weapons." In other
words, it seemed logical that the First would be bringing in something
stronger than she'd seen before.
I don't think its practical to go into every battle assuming that
the enemy has a 'Glory power level' foe. It would be paralyzing.
Buffy has to operate everyday and that entails accepting a level
of risk. My difference with Buffy is that strategically, I don't
think she should be subjecting the potentials to that level of
risk.
yez: Not only that, but has Buffy ever won a major battle with
just "brawn"? Battle tactics aside, research and knowledge
have almost always played a critical part in her successes, haven't
they? And almost every big win has come after figuring out what
the Big Bad was up to -- not rushing in blindly, which is essentially
what she did this time.
And it wasn't just Giles' concerns that Buffy ignored. All the
Scoobs were basically saying, "This really seems like a trap."
I mentioned in a reply above that I think Buffy knew it might
be a trap and thought she could bull her way through with her
power plus Spike and Faith. Some investigation would have been
useful, though I'll bet Calib's superhuman fighting powers are
not common knowledge.
Thanks for the feedback Traveler and yez.
-JG
[> [> Of course, if it
had gone the other way around . . . -- Finn Mac Cool, 15:29:57
04/22/03 Tue
If Buffy had taken the cautious route, but Caleb really did have
a potential as a prisoner, and he killed her, we would be getting
complaints about Buffy being cold-hearted and ignoring someone
in danger. Hell, even if Caleb didn't have a potential with him,
and Buffy hadn't gone into battle, we'd probably still get some
people saying that, for all Buffy knew, she was leaving someone
to die. This was one of those cases where there really wasn't
much in the way of a good decision, or at least a decision without
risks of life and limb. Given the force gathered against Caleb
and the bringers, as well as the protection left over the remaining
potentials, I think Buffy acted as best as could be expected.
As for the charge into the fray attitude: more often than not
this has involved Buffy going alone. See "The Harvest",
"Prophecy Girl", "When She Was Bad", "Becoming
I", "The Yoko Factor". In two of those eps, the
trap was a ruse to leave the others unprotected, and Buffy covered
that scenario this episode. In the others, she went alone, where
she's much more liable to be defeated. Frankly, I can think of
only a few creatures in the Buffyverse that could survive the
assault of Buffy, Spike, and Faith. These are the Hellmouth Beast,
the Judge, D'Hoffryn, the Mayor's demon form, Glory, Dark Willow,
and possibly Adam. That's it. Of the hundreds (perhaps thousands)
of demons Buffy's encountered over the years, only six (possibly
seven) that could have done as well as Caleb did. Given this rarity,
the odds were literally a hundred to one of the battle being a
failure. And, if she backs out of a fight everytime there's a
1% chance of losing, the world would probably be destroyed by
now.
[> [> [> Re: Of course,
if it had gone the other way around . . . -- Just George,
15:47:40 04/22/03 Tue
Finn Mac Cool: Hell, even if Caleb didn't have a potential
with him, and Buffy hadn't gone into battle, we'd probably still
get some people saying that, for all Buffy knew, she was leaving
someone to die. This was one of those cases where there really
wasn't much in the way of a good decision, or at least a decision
without risks of life and limb.
Thanks for putting this so well. This was what I was reaching
for with the story of the Israeli tank commander. Sometime you
don't have a best answer, you have to balance risks and roll the
dice.
Finn Mac Cool: Of the hundreds (perhaps thousands) of demons
Buffy's encountered over the years, only six (possibly seven)
that could have done as well as Caleb did. Given this rarity,
the odds were literally a hundred to one of the battle being a
failure. And, if she backs out of a fight every time there's a
1% chance of losing, the world would probably be destroyed by
now.
Again, well said. This was the history that informed Buffy when
she made her tactical choices.
-JG
[> [> [> Agreed. And....
-- Sophist, 16:28:49 04/22/03 Tue
Traveler mentioned Buffy charging in to face Glory (Shadow). Buffy
did the same with Adam. In each case, it was that experience which
gained her the important information that she needed to try something
different. Without an actual trial, there's no way to discover
that. And any such trial involves the risk of loss.
[> [> [> [> Re:
walking into a trap -- Utopia, 17:50:02 04/22/03 Tue
But the thing is, if someone sets a trap for you and you know
they know exactly what kind of firepower you have, isn't it a
good idea to assume they've taken that firepower into account
and have a plan to deal with it?
Buffy knows that the First has intimate knowledge of her
operations, and she knows that the first is capable of
finding things like the Turok-Han to deal with her. She should
have at least done reconnaissance first. Couldn't she have tried
that potential locator spell? Or called that seer in the Devon
coven or something? That would've at least cleared up if Caleb
had one of the girls.
[> [> [> [> [>
Exactly. -- yez, 08:10:59 04/23/03 Wed
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: walking into a trap -- Sophist, 08:44:15 04/23/03
Wed
I don't see any reason to believe that the FE knew Faith was there.
This represents a huge increase in firepower that would have been
a complete surprise to the FE. In addition, the Potentials fought
quite well. Had the only opposition been Bringers -- which was
the most reasonable possibility - - Buffy's reconnaisance in force
would have amounted to overkill.
You have to conduct recon missions. Frequently, they are the only
way to discover crucial information. Sure there's a risk. But
you take the risk so that you are better informed the next time.
Now she is.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Re: walking into a trap -- yez, 09:02:09 04/23/03
Wed
"Had the only opposition been Bringers -- which was the most
reasonable possibility -- Buffy's reconnaisance in force would
have amounted to
overkill."
I don't think Bringers only was the most reasonable possibility.
See my post below on logic indicating more caution for details
to support.
I completely agree with you about recon. But there are other ways
to go about that. Less risky ways. For example, how about a better
interogation of the messenger girl? What was Caleb like, how did
he fight, did he seem to have any special abilities, etc. Then,
in following the Bringers to their lair, how about more in-depth
surveillance? How many went in, how many came out, what are the
entrances and exits like, is there any way to cause some sort
of commotion to observe what the reaction from the building is,
are there windows that can be peered in, is it possible for someone
to sneak inside and check things out, etc.
But all they did was follow in some Bringers who looked like they
wanted to be found. If the Bringers had been consistently whupped
by the Scoobs before, would they seriously be stupid enough to
try to overwhelm Buffy et al solely by sheer number? If so, why
wouldn't they ahve just staged an attack en force on the Summers
house where they could get to everyone at once? Clearly, there
would be another agent involved, something that they thought could
change the odds.
yez
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Bringers -- Sophist, 09:21:45 04/23/03 Wed
how about a better interogation of the messenger girl? What
was Caleb like, how did he fight, did he seem to have any special
abilities, etc.
That certainly should have been done. Of course, we know that
she had no actual information to give, nothing that would have
indicated Caleb's extraordinary fighting skills. So while I agree,
it doesn't matter.
If the Bringers had been consistently whupped by the Scoobs
before
All the more reason for Buffy to believe her force was adequate.
Indeed, by the standards of the show, it was overwhelming (2 slayers
and Spike plus others).
But all they did was follow in some Bringers who looked like
they wanted to be found
The Bringers behaved just as they always have -- as though they
were in a trance and oblivious to events outside. Amends, LMPTM.
Nothing about their behavior suggested anything about a trap (though
I agree about the need to look for other entrances to the winery).
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> Re: Bringers -- yez, 09:47:57 04/23/03
Wed
We're going to have to agree to disagree, I think, especially
that nothing about the Bringers' behavior suggesting a trap. My
recollection is that either Buffy or Faith have a line while they're
looking at the lair that indicates that it's almost as if the
Bringers want to be found, can't remember the exact language.
To me, that indicates that at least one of the slayers had strong
info indicating something was fishy, but ignored it.
yez
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> Re: Bringers -- WickedBuffy, 15:09:04
04/23/03 Wed
"If the Bringers had been consistently whupped by the Scoobs
before
All the more reason for Buffy to believe her force was adequate.
Indeed, by the standards of the show, it was overwhelming (2 slayers
and Spike plus others)"
I don't agree that the Bringers have bring consistantly whupped
by the Scoobs. The guys usually had an objective and sometimes
lost and sometimes didn't. Then again, we really don't know what
times they might have been TOLD to appear whupped in order to
send a different message. (Dawn wasn't an SIT). They did kill
alot of the non-Sunnydale SITs. They did get Spike out of the
basement. Just an example of some of their unwhuppedness. Whereas
the Scoobs always go for beating the Bringers, the Bringers objectives
are more obtuse at times.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Tactics, Strategy, Force
Structure -- DEN, 16:32:36 04/23/03 Wed
I agree that taking the risk of going into what probably is a
trap, with the intention of springing it and thereby gaining the
initiative, is a common and well accepted move in war. I agree
too that Buffy's plan is more systematic, takes more account of
possible countermoves, and makes better tactical use of her resources,
than her initiatives in earlier seasons. The problems with her
decision are: 1)There is no real prospect of intimidating the
enemy-- everything the First has communicated to date is that
this is a finish fight. So any victory will have meaning only
to the degree it improves the effectiveness of Buffy's troops.
2)Buffy's force structure is limited, and she has no possibility
of replacing losses. The point that to date, "ordinary"
good-guy combatants have generally come out of this kind of action
OK is well taken. But Buffy herself has repeatedly asserted that
this time is different; not everyone will survive. And when it's
all over two Potentials are dead; four more are hospitalized,
including Xander--a third of the fighters she took in. That's
a brutal price even for a victory. 3) There's a corresponding
issue of morale. However well the Potentials did at the beginning,
they wound up with their butts kicked and they know it. The problem
with inexperienced troops is not their first action, where the
valor of ignorance carries them forward. It's the second one,
when they know what they're facing. Buffy, or someone, is going
to have to do some work before taking them in again--to say nothing
of the problems likely to emerge at "command and staff"
levels. The look Willow gave Buffy in the hospital would freeze
live steam!
One more point. It's been several months since the fighting slowed
down. That seems plenty of time and opportunity for Buffy to take
one or two Potentials on low-risk patrol almost every night, breaking
them in, giving them a chance to develop some moves and even pick
up a kill or two. Yet the show (much more than the shooting script)
repeatedly stresses the general unpreparedness of the Potentials.
The whole lash-up, indeed, shows a level of improvisation that
is hard to accept as necessary given the time the Scoobies have
had to train and organize the "army " Buffy so eloquently
promises to create. Lord knows the intermediate episodes did not
exactly indicate that much else was happening! OK, none of these
people are soldiers--but the basic techniques of organization
and training aren't exactly rocket science, either. The Scoobies
could have picked up a lot from watching old war movies!
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Tactics, Strategy,
Force Structure -- Just George, 17:31:51 04/23/03 Wed
Taking a couple of potentials on patrol every night would have
been a very good idea from a training standpoint. I think Buffy
didn't do that because she treated patrol as a time away from
the potentials. Bad move, but understandable.
I'm not surprised that Buffy has done a relatively poor job at
organizing her "army". It is outside all of her training
and her emotional "nature" (Buffy is "solves problems
on her own girl"). However, I'm surprised that Xander (Mr.
War Movie) or Giles (a Watch and a historian) haven't been more
help. Giles hasn't been around much (and has been a pain when
he was around). But Xander could have been more helpful. He came
up with the "trigger" explanation for Spike's behavior.
And Buffy might have listened to him if he presented other ideas
in a non-threatening way. Also, it would have given him more to
do in the series!
-JG
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Tactics, Strategy,
Force Structure -- LadyStarlight, 18:51:49 04/23/03 Wed
Let's not forget that Xander actually was a soldier for
a time. And who knows how much of that he retains?
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Tactics,
Strategy, Force Structure -- Wizard, 22:42:32 04/23/03
Wed
While Xander has stated that his knowledge faded by the first
third of S4, it is also worth noting that the 'cool' Xander still
had some very handy moves, and for a guy that could only stalemate
Harmony in the funniest fight ever, he's done fairly well for
himself when he's had to. Someone here said a while back that
Military!Xander only comes back when he's needed, and from what
we've seen in the show, that's been borne out.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Re: walking into a trap -- Philistine, 23:25:07
04/24/03 Thu
"I don't see any reason to believe that the FE knew Faith
was there. "
I had that same thought at first, until I remembered something:
In the teaser, before kicking the stabbed and branded Potential
out of the truck, Caleb tells her that the girls in the car directly
behind them are headed for the same place she was trying to reach.
He doesn't say he knew who was in the car; but he obviously did
know where they were and where they were going, at the very least.
From there I took a tiny step, and there conclusions were.
That doesn't mean Buffy had any reason to suspect that
the FE knew Faith was in town, apart from the sort of general
well-informedness the FE has shown in the past: "It knew
us, Buffy."
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Good point -- Sophist, 10:59:07 04/25/03
Fri
[> [> [> I think logic
should've indicated more caution. -- yez, 06:23:43 04/23/03
Wed
Forgive me if others raised these points, but I was writing offline
and couldn't access the site to read -- and now have to get to
work. So:
"... This was one of those cases where there really wasn't
much in the way of a good decision, or at least a decision without
risks of life and limb. Given the force gathered against Caleb
and the bringers, as well as the protection left over the remaining
potentials, I think Buffy acted as best as could be expected....
These are the Hellmouth Beast, the Judge, D'Hoffryn, the Mayor's
demon form, Glory, Dark Willow, and possibly Adam. That's it..."
But this wasn't just some random baddie throwing a brick with
a message saying "I'm gonna getcha!" through Buffy's
window. There was a context that, IMHO, pretty clearly warranted
a more cautious approach. Caleb was working with the Bringers.
The Bringers work with the First. Therefore, it was likely that
Caleb was working with the First and would know some or all of
what the First knew, including that Buffy had gathered and was
training a small army of Potentials, Spike, a powerful witch,
etc. We know the First was aware of that, and Buffy knew it, too.
All the Scoobies did, or should have -- they'd seen how the First
was somehow intimately acquainted with all of them, seemed to
know their strengths and weaknesses, could get into their heads,
into their midst.
So in a situation like that where there's a good chance your opponent
knows almost everything about you and your strengths and is obviously
trying to get you to fight (based on his message), and you know
very little about him/her, it seems best to try to gather information
before putting your "troops" on the line.
Just because you're staging a sneak attack doesn't mean that the
element of surprise is actually on your side. Caleb obviously
wanted a fight with Buffy, the conspicuously wandering Bringers
indicated that he/they wanted to be found, there was a high likelihood
that Caleb had information from the First -- the odds seemed higher
than normal that Caleb would have some real fire power. Why else
would anyone pick a fight with the slayer and her army?
I don't know, just seemed to me like rushing in there like that
was a foolish risk. I mean, just the fact that Faith (Stormin'
Norman) thought it was a good idea should've told Buffy something...
yez
[> [> [> [> Re:
I think logic should've indicated more caution. -- Finn Mac
Cool, 08:50:53 04/23/03 Wed
Consider earlier this season though. The First Evil went through
a lot to get that Turok-Han freed, including three failed attempts
by Andrew and a kidnapping of Spike, which revealed its true identity.
The First bent a lot of attention on getting just that one warrior,
and Buffy defeated it in one-on-one combat. And, after the Turok-Han
was dead, the First was immobilized for several episodes. The
thought probably went, "Hey, the First went through a lot
of trouble to get, and relied heavily on, that Turok- Han. If
it had someone more powerful than it, someone strong enough to
take on two Slayers and a very powerful vampire, why did it bother
with the UberVamp?"
Also, so far this season Buffy hadn't taken the potentials into
an actual battle, and had gone after the First's last minion alone.
She probably figured that the First Evil was planning on her going
solo against Caleb like she had against the Turok-Han, so she
decided to bring Spike, Faith, Xander, Dawn, and the potentials
along, in hopes that Caleb/the First would be surprised by this
change of tactics.
[> [> [> [> [>
Maybe, but... -- yez, 09:23:00 04/23/03 Wed
While some people have argued that this preliminary skirmish was
necessary so that Buffy could gain crucial knowledge about Caleb,
doesn't it also figure that the uber-vamp was part of the First's
testing of Buffy? If the Turok-Han failed, then isn't it logical
that the First would try something else, something more powerful,
and that the "quiet" weeks were a good sign that the
First was working on a new plan?
I think Buffy should've counted on at least more of the same.
Imagine that the First had already found some way to raise several
Turok-Han, like in Buffy's vision. Was storming the lair at night
a good use of resources? After all, Buffy only narrowly averted
death at the uber-vamp's hands on her first encounter, and the
fight where she killed it actually seemed pretty close.
yez
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Re: Maybe, but... -- Just George, 18:01:51 04/23/03
Wed
yez: " If the Turok-Han failed, then isn't it logical
that the First would try something else, something more powerful,
and that the "quiet" weeks were a good sign that the
First was working on a new plan?"
I'll accept your logic, but I think Buffy took it into account.
Say she accepted that the enemy had upped their power level. So
instead of sending one slayer, she sent two, and a vampire, and
a bunch of fighters that have been training for months. It seems
a reasonable escalation on Buffy's part. It just happens that
it wasn't enough.
My argument is that Buffy's tactics (a powerful reconnaissance
in force) were defendable, but that her strategy (treating the
potentials as soldiers in a war) wasn't.
-JG
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Re: Maybe, but... -- yez, 07:47:32 04/24/03
Thu
I can agree her tactics were generally good, but the strategy
wasn't. Though I don't think we agree on why the strategy wasn't
good, but no matter. :)
yez
[> [> Re: Tactics and
strategy, BTVS style. (Spoilers through Dirty Girls) -- crgn,
13:48:45 04/25/03 Fri
The Glory scenario illustrates Buffy's war process completely.
She takes the battle to the BB; if she wins it's over, but if
she loses she learns enough about the BB not to lose the next
time.
[> Buffy should be relieved
of "Command". (Spoilers for DG) -- WickedBuffy (just
boring ramblings), 19:00:08 04/22/03 Tue
Yah, George, I hear you!
And I agree with Sophist - "But the thing is, if someone
sets a trap for you and you know they know exactly what kind of
firepower you have, isn't it a good idea to assume they've taken
that firepower into account and have a plan to deal with it? ..."
And shooting off crossbows in a confined space? omg.
I still don't see Buffy with many natural leadership skills. And
she isn't showing much of a very stable learning curve for strategy
dealing with The First, either.
Was leaving Giles and Willow behind really strategy or common
sense? The incredible strategy and well-thought out plan regarding
the UberVamp couldn't have been a fluke.
It's as if she doesn't want to take the time to plan things out.
(Hello? First find out something about Caleb, then either bluff
him back to get him to come ito the open - or lure him out onto
your own turf. But marching into a dimly lit cellar filled with
a hundred different places to hide(the kegs, etc) with no idea
of how many you are against? Seems more like a kamikazi strategy
than anything else. Expecting the SITs to act like a big team
without building any dependable smaller teamwork strategies? (Pair
up and watch each others back) Cut off the Head to confuse the
body? (Focus on Caleb and make a concentrated effort to destroy
him.)
For all B knew, she was marching everyone into the cavern filled
with demons that the Shadowman had shown her. Sometimes I feel
she sort of hopes the last battle would just get here so they
could get it OVER with.
She can still kick ass (though the strength of it seems to sporadic)
- so why not just let her do what she does best? And let someone
else be the General, someone with more skills, experience and
not so stressed.
Then again - we kept doubting Giles was Giles because he was acting
strangely. Why haven't we ever doubted Buffy? Is she being controlled
in some way, by the First, If not controlled, then having some
extra stress pushed upon her by some of FE's mind tactics? The
Buffy who killed the UberVamp seems very different from the one
who walked into wine celler.
She knows she's living on borrowed time according to Slayer history.
She knows lots of people are going to die. She knows this is "the
big one" She knows what Heaven is like. She's not enjoying
life, the responsiblity of the world is on her shoulders.
Maybe she's acting like this because a deep part of her just wants
it to end. The FIrst is winning from inside Buffy now, not just
in the carnage around her.
I miss the old days when the bad guys were vanquished in one episode,
Or, at the most, four shows.
And I kinda hope Scooby Doo shows up in the final show and saves
the day. ;>
[> [> Buffy is a soldier,
not a general -- BlueStem, 21:25:24 04/22/03 Tue
quote:
She can still kick ass (though the strength of it seems to
sporadic) - so why not just let her do what she does best? And
let someone else be the General, someone with more skills, experience
and not so stressed.
end quote
You are right. Buffy is only good for battles. She lacks the ability
to grasp the bigger picture most of the times. For one thing,
she has been absolutely horrible in handling the logistics. The
Potentials weren't given sufficient real combat experience to
toughen them up. A lot of the experienced people (e.g. the Gang)
were just left around doing nothing. Hello? Ever heard of optimization?
They've saved your ass before, now have them help save your ass
again.
This season gave me new insights on why the Watcher's Council
was even formed in the first place. I doubt it's because of patriarchal
dominance (something too ultra feminist for me to buy). More likely,
most Slayers were simply too unfocused for the good of humanity.
Sure, they have a darkness inside of them that draws them to fight
demons. But this is instinct. It's not properly used. The Watcher's
Council not only provides much needed training (physical training,
techniques, mental preparation), it also directs the Slayer power
to the most urgent tasks such as ending an apocalypse or unstoppable
demon. And we know what happens if a Slayer uses her calling for
the wrong purposes (Season 3).
With Buffy, she acquires some idea of looking at the picture because
of Giles, and because of the way things worked out forced her
to sometimes step back. She becomes the leader because she has
powers, because she has experience, and because the group is a
fighting force. But outside that environment, she is lost and
inexperienced. She doesn't belong to the group as a general. She
belongs as a soldier, no matter how elite she is.
[> [> [> If not Buffy,
who? -- Just George, 22:55:47 04/22/03 Tue
Historically, Giles and the SG has been pushing Buffy into the
leadership role for years. They all seem very happy to dump all
authority on Buffy.
Giles not only left in S6, he pretty much abandoned any symbolic
leadership after high school. Watch Season 5, Giles is at most
a sounding board for Buffy to talk to while she makes the decisions.
And the SG were only too happy to drop any responsibility for
fighting evil onto Buffy the moment they wrenched her out of heaven.
I agree that Buffy does not always shine in the leadership role.
But I would put forward that she has little choice. Buffy is leader
by default. She is the only one still truly devoted to the cause.
For all that Willow once said "It's a good fight and I want
in" she has been sideline girl ever since Buffy returned
in Season 6.
In talking to my wife, I said that "ME has portrayed the
cost of Buffy's nightly combats by slowly whittling her life away,
until fighting evil was all she had. She has no long term goals
beyond fighting evil and keeping her friends alive. My wife countered
that ME had always used that model for representing the cost of
slaying, but that in the early seasons the Scooby Gang was there
to help rebuild Buffy's lust for life when Slaying took too much
out of her. Unfortunately, that hasn't been the case for many
years.
-JG
[> [> [> Buffy vs.
Stratego (spoilers for "DG" and AtS up to "Inside
Out") -- Valheru, 01:19:37 04/23/03 Wed
The problem I see with the Scooby Gang's power structure this
year is how everyone seems to be following a kind of circular
logic that sprang up from nowhere. It's as though Buffy is saying,
"I'm going to be the leader because I'm the Slayer and the
rest of you guys aren't doing anything," while the Scoobies
are saying, "We're not doing anything because you think being
the Slayer means you get to take charge and you aren't letting
us contribute to the planning." The more commanding Buffy
acts, the less assertive the Scoobies become, and the more the
Scoobies back off, the less Buffy is willing to let them step
up.
There's that, but some blame can be put on the writers who aren't
being very consistent. We were led to believe that Willow, Xander,
and Buffy planned the "Showtime" battle with the Turok-han,
yet it doesn't make much sense that Willow and Xander would even
agree to--much less plan--such a reckless strategy for
Buffy against a being who gave Buffy the two worst beatings we've
seen since Glory. IMO, Willow and Xander's focus must have been
on the Potentials only, while they left it up to Buffy to figure
out how to fight the beastie. Buffy did eventually kill the Turok-han,
but the whole fight plan had all the markings of Buffy's "keep
poking it until I find a weakness or it kills me" fighting
strategy, not the more thorough investigative style of the Scoobies.
BUFFY: So Will, you and Xander take care of the Potentials and
I'll handle the Turkey-hand.
XANDER: How you gonna kill it, Buffy? This thing wiped the floor,
walls, ceiling, windows, and doormat with you last time.
BUFFY: I'm going to punch it, then punch it again, then maybe
a kick, headbutt, duck a roundhouse, then knee it in the chin.
Repeat until dead.
XANDER: That should do it.
WILLOW: No way that big creep can hurt you with a plan like that,
Buffy.
Somehow, I just don't think that's how the conversation went.
For all her battle-testedness, Buffy isn't a general. Planning
isn't her strong suit. Buffy works best on instinct, knowing what
to do in the heat of battle. She can quickly determine what the
best match-ups are (like when she switched with Kendra, the Tarakan
cop for Spike, in "WML2"), what to do with the weapons
at hand, and how best to use the knowledge gained elsewhere (usually
from the Scoobies) to defeat the enemy. Once taken out of the
fast-paced environment of fighting, however, her skills are equal--or
even a little less--than the Scoobies'. It's as though Buffy's
mind works too fast for her to catch up with in a normal situation,
but once the world speeds up, she attunes herself to the wavelength.
The thing I don't understand, in "DG", was why Buffy
didn't bring in any other viewpoints to the plan. Even
if she was acting self-sufficient to get at Giles, she still had
away-from-Giles time with her three greatest battlefield planners:
Xander, Spike, and Faith. Xander planned the most- populated battle
the Scoobies have ever seen ("Graduation Day"), and
it was inferred that much of the strategy used in "The Gift"
was his. He might not have all his soldier-guy skills anymore,
but any residue combined with his already- impressive movie-general
knowledge is still a whole lot more than Buffy has. For all his
failures, Spike is a pretty good planner, he just gets impatient
and doesn't execute properly. And he's been around the block a
few times, too. Faith, as we saw on AtS, is no slouch either,
and we can't forget that she spent quite some time with Mayor
"I've been planning this for 100 years" Wilkins. And
all three of these relatively intelligent fighters though Buffy's
plan was so foolproof that anything they could suggest would only
weaken their chances?
Was Buffy's plan bad? No. It was a very fundamentally sound plan.
Think of it like a boxing match. When the starting bell rings,
do you load up all your power and energy into one punch, either
knocking your opponent out or leaving yourself vulnerable to the
same? Of course not. Do you use only half your energy on the first
punch, so if you miss or don't land a knockout, you'll still have
half your energy left for a second punch? It's better than the
original plan, but still not perfect. So you decide to use a quarter
of your energy on your first punch, a quarter on your second,
and keep the remaining half in reserve for later. Which is what
Buffy did (Spike, Buffy, some SiTs were the first punch, Faith,
Xander, some more SiTs the second, and Willow, Giles, Anya, Dawn,
Andrew, and most of the SiTs as the reserve).
So what's wrong with that plan? Well, a boxer doesn't just plan
the power of his punches. He plans the timing (which round do
you start pouring it on?), the location (does your opponent have
a nagging injury you can expose?), the style, (is this guy open
to uppercuts from the right or jabs from the left?), and all sorts
of other things.
Let me use an example. Stay with Buffy's original plan (her and
Spike as first wave, Xander and Faith as second, the rest in reserve).
Instead of charging in with the whole first wave, send Spike in
as a scout (he can see in the dark, has heightened smell and hearing,
probably the world's best skulker-in-the-shadows). It may take
half an hour or so, but he'd be able to figure out where the Bringers
are hiding, how many, and possibly gets a visual on Caleb. Then,
go in with long, piercing weapons like swords or pikes and start
slicing into the wine caskets. But keep Spike out of the battle
and out of sight. Once the Bringers get their bearings and start
fighting back, retreat outside, leading the Bringers into an ambush
with the crossbow-wielding second wave. It's crucial to take the
fight outside: inside, the cramped spaces force the good guys
to fight one- on-one, but outside, they can use their numbers
to gang up on the Bringers. Also, being outside allows for an
easier retreat if needed. Hopefully, this way will maximize the
SiTs to kill all or most of the Bringers before Caleb shows up.
And then he does. Buffy immediately attacks him (rather than letting
him talk, walk up to her, and knock her across the room). Or hey,
she could even let him do what he did. So long as she keeps his
focus on her while Faith and Spike sneak up behind him (with weapons,
for Joss-sake! This pugilistic style is what Faith, Spike, and
Buffy should use against vampires, not Big Bads and First Evils.
AI would be utterly perplexed). Come at Caleb from three sides
at once (much like AI fought the Beast), leaving Xander to coordinate
the Potentials. Then, if Buffy is so determined to do it like
this, keep fighting Caleb until they find a weakness or he beats
them.
It's not a brilliant plan and there are some exploitable weaknesses,
but the end goals as I see them are 1) get as many out alive as
possible, and 2) defeat Caleb or find a weakness. Now maybe Buffy's
plan didn't cost any more Potentials than my plan so 1 is a wash,
but they got nowhere on 2, plus there's Xander's tragedy (which,
BTW, wouldn't have been as possible had Xander been in charge
of the Potentials and had Buffy, then Spike, then Faith not tried
to mano-y-mano Caleb until he knocked them too senseless that
they couldn't save themselves).
The point of "WSWB" was not that Buffy went off alone,
but rather that she took her own counsel. As we saw in "Becoming"
with Kendra, it wasn't outside the realm of possibility that had
Buffy stayed, the vampires would attack, kill Buffy, and kidnap
Giles and Willow anyway. Buffy's mistake was not putting her head
together with Giles, Willow, and Xander to figure out what the
plan was in the first place. She does the same thing in "DG".
The mistake wasn't the plan (she could have had a worse plan,
of course, that cost all their lives), but rather that it was
the only plan put forth, or even that no one else bothered to
tweak it at all. Maybe with just a small adjustment, Xander would
have gotten out with both eyes. And hey, maybe that's the whole
point of "DG": by losing his eye, Xander "sees"
that blindly following the plans of a woman who confesses that
she doesn't have a clue isn't going to get them through this.
[> [> [> [> Re:
Buffy vs. Stratego (spoilers for "DG" and AtS up to
"Inside Out") -- Wizard, 02:23:44 04/23/03 Wed
AI would be utterly perplexed? Can't and won't argue. Buffy is
a hell of a tactician, but not so good a strategist. That lack
has always been countered by the presence of those who are good
strategists: Giles (for smaller fights- he's a little out of his
league when dealing with big numbers), Angel, Xander, and Riley
(when he was allowed to be). A number of the others can pull through
in the clutch- Willow, since she was defacto leader between 'The
Gift' and 'Bargaining Pt.2.' And while their Scooby status is
at times a little shaky, Spike and Faith are good tacticians too.
AI wishes it were this lucky. But... AI is more of a team. Angel
is the leader, but he is more like the first among equals, as
opposed to Buffy's 'General Summers' approach. AI's got some excellent
strategists and tacticians- Angel, Wes, Gunn, Fred, even Cordy
(if not to the same degree). These people work together, and that
is why they are still alive, and damn successful. But in Sunnydale...
Buffy's actual plan was good- far from perfect, but good. She
relied on past experience, which had always paid off, and she
learned from previous errors- Giles and Willow were more than
enough protection for the newer Potentials. She divided her forces,
and kept a decent ration of strength and experience. And it all
paid off until Caleb showed up.
(And to be fair, after seeing what he did to Buffy, Spike and
Faith should have gone after Caleb at the same time.)
To put myself into the mind of the First (kind of), bringing Caleb
in at this point was a smart move. Past experience has taught
the Scoobies that the Hellmouth percolates in May, and sometimes
a little sooner as well. They are locked into that mode of thought.
By this point in this year, the First was almost out of options.
It couldn't take the fight to the Scoobies in person, its priests
were not sufficient to do the job, the Seal was patched, a sizable
percentage of the demon population went north to L.A. (a significant
minority, at least- which is what I'll believe until I hear otherwise),
and the remainders were probably either unwilling or unable to
attack the Slayer and friends directly. It had people like Amy
and Andrew it could use or manipulate, and Spike had the trigger,
but they couldn't do too much damage. The thing is, the First
took all this into account. It kept its wild card moving around
the world, directing the murder of Potentials, blowing up the
Council, and probably killing any potential aid for the Scoobs,
with the glaring omission of AI, which had its own major problems-
and still does. The First seems to be working on a timetable.
If that's so, then if the First brought Caleb in, say, a month
ago, they would have had a chance to size him up, and possibly
find a weakness. If so... buh-bye Caleb. The First would be out
of options. But bringing him near the end, and having him win
a major victory for the bad guys demoralizes the Scoobs and hypes
the Forces of Evil, in addition to any dead Scoobs, who would
be unable to help in the fight. If Buffy's resurrecton caused
the weakness in the Slayer line, then the First had a year to
plan this, with plenty of time to account for variables- Darth
Rosenburg, ensouled Spike, demon Anya, etc. One must wonder- is
the battle at the winery more a failure on the part of Buffy,
or a masterstroke on the part of the First?
[> [> [> [> Sounds
like a great plan, but never would've worked. -- yez, 10:35:52
04/23/03 Wed
Seriously, that plan seems very sound. (Though I'm with Sophist
in that I've never seen Spike or Faith as good planners.) But
no plan, no matter how sound, would've worked because in order
to advance the story in the way they wanted it advanced, the writers
needed Buffy to fail, some Potentials to die, Xander to lose an
eye.
This is stating the obvious, yes. I'm just trying to figure out
if the writers had Buffy come up with a bad plan *on purpose,*
if that's part of the story -- or if they just couldn't figure
out how she could execute a better plan and still lose. After
all, if they had her execute the most brilliant plan they could
imagine, and yet she still "lost," then how would they
take it to the next level and come up with a plan that she wins
-- assuming Buffy does triumph in the end (regardless of cost)?
I'm not sure, but to me, that whole conversation with the Scoobs
kind of sounded like "hanging a lantern" on the problem,
like the writers said, "Well, it doesn't make sense that
Buffy would rush in there, so let's acknowledge that it doesn't
make sense, but have her do it anyway."
yez
[> [> [> [> [>
But how did it move the plot along? (spoilers to DG/preMB))
-- WickedBuffy, 15:43:44 04/23/03 Wed
That seems logical, yez. I hope it was some plot advancement scene.
But what did it the feeble plan show us?
Caleb is much stronger than the best physical fighters. And he's
having a whole lot of fun!
Buffy is being looked at with much less hero worship by the SITs
( at least the mangled ones).
The loss and deaths create more doubt about Buffys leadership
abilities and perhaps more reason for hesitancy in following Buffy.
The Scoobs can have really, terrible, irreversible things happen
to them. They appear more mortal. (I was as shocked by Xanders
eye gouging as I was when I saw Tara being shot.)
Faith will now follow Buffy instead of fight her, whether physically
or just to be rebellious. She acknowledged Buffy as her boss.
Willow still won't use her magic. Even to help the plan. And afterwards
she didn't go all angry and black-eyed, raven- haired when she
saw what had been done to her girlfriend AND to her best friend.
The SITs try, but they aren't superpowered yet.
Giles has either lost his backbone or is going senile.
umm, there is still no official law enforcement in Sunnydale following
up on the recent homicides, attempted murders and general swiftly
rising bodycount.
ps... two things from your post... what other reason, besides
the one I mentioned, would the writers have for needing an opportunity
for Xanders eye to get gouged out? And about Faith as a strategist....
how much did she play in creating that great "while Wes feigns
death and I appear to lose in order to drug Angelus with my body"
plan? I can't remember if they gave kudos afterwards - but it
was after Faith asked about the vampire/human drug symbiotic act
that the plan happened. Did it suddenly click into Wes's mind
even though he knew about it for a while, or was it Faiths putting
two and two together.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Blinded by the (dark) light... -- yez, 08:29:26
04/24/03 Thu
I really have no idea how this is supposed to further the plot
because at this point, I don't know what the other characters'
reactions are. I had a hard time reading people's faces. I couldn't
tell if they were upset with Buffy, "You suck as a leader!",
or if they were looking at her with more of an "OK, it's
really sinking in now how serious this is and how the odds are
against us. So what's your plan now, my fearless leader?"
That kind of thing.
This goes back to something I said in an earlier post on this
thread -- I don't know if the writers intended to have Buffy perform
badly as a general, or if they were actually trying to "stage"
something to show how powerful Caleb is. In other words, it's
possible the writers were trying to show that no matter how brilliant
a plan, Caleb foiled it.
If I had to bet, though, I would wager that the writers are going
for the "bad general" angle, that they're setting up
some kind of crisis in the ranks and among the Scoobies. Remember,
what Joyce said to Dawn has to come into play soon -- "She
won't pick you." So maybe they're trying to set something
up where Dawn and the others begin to question whose interests
Buffy has in mind. Maybe Buffy is so hell- bent on ending the
fight that she'll do whatever she thinks it's going to take to
do that, even though she still has no real idea of what the First
is actually trying to accomplish. I'm wondering is this really
isn't going back to Season 1 where Buffy's narrow interpretation
of the prophecy -- that she'll die at the hands of the Master
-- actually lead to his escape (then of course, death). But maybe
waging this war is exactly what the First wants and needs, and
in waging it, Buffy will actually trigger something that will
backfire. Who knows?
"ps... two things from your post... what other reason,
besides the one I mentioned, would the writers have for
needing an opportunity for Xanders eye to get gouged out?"
As far as Xander's eye, of course I don't know the writers' real
reasons, but I would expect there to be several. For example,
it clearly helps drive home the point about how this time, this
is serious. Like, I know we said that the world was going to end
last year, guys, but this time, the gang really may not be able
to fix things. Really. Seriously. Look, we're even maiming Xander
in graphic detail -- see, we really mean it.
I'm sure it also has symbolic value like everything else on the
show. Caleb says, "So you're the one that sees everything"
before the gouging. If Xander has been heading toward something
of a Watcher role, now we have half a watcher, so to speak. Also,
if Xander is the heart, we kind of have the love is blind thing
going, which may speak to Xander's loyalty to Buffy no matter
what. Or it may hold some clues to how this latest problem will
be fixed: What's war good for? Absolutely nothing. Love is all
you need, even though love hurts, and love is blind. I don't know.
Third, it's interesting how this may play into the altered visions
the demon showed Xander on his wedding day, the ones that scared
him off. My recollection is that Xander had some kind of injury
-- not blindness, but some nonspecific injury -- that he'd gotten
in defense of Buffy. There was also an allusion to Buffy not having
surivived. If the demon just tweaked the visions in a minor way,
then we now have Xander with the loss of one eye, and perhaps
Buffy headed off to death number three. Three times the charm...
Also, if Xander does resist the pull of any bitterness he may
feel, depression, anger, etc., then we have him resisting the
pull toward evil, in a way, if gouging of the eyes is how the
Bringers are created. I mean, if Xander chooses to keep fighting
for good even after something horrible happens to him like this,
maybe this is a way to hurt the First. It kind of seems like the
First needs people to choose.
Anyway, I'm sure the writers will have another reason that is
much cleverer than anything I could come up with...
"And about Faith as a strategist.... "
I missed that Angel ep. and just saw the one afterward. From what
Wes said, "It was her choice," it kind of gave the impression
that maybe he had a part in suggesting the plan, but I'm not sure.
Maybe Faith has made headway in the planning area, but my impression
of her from Sunnydale days was that she much preferred to just
dive "into the hornet's nest" and take it on instinct
from there. She says as much to Buffy when they're scouting.
yez
[> [> [> I have to
wonder if some of the suggestions in this sub- thread aren't intended
as satire. -- Sophist, 09:08:22 04/23/03 Wed
SPIKE as planner????! FAITH as a strategist????! I could hardly
pick 2 worse examples of possible generals. Andrew would
be preferable -- at least he doesn't have a long history of abysmal
failure in the planning department.
Nor do I see Xander as much of a general. Notwithstanding the
effort to retcon him as the strategist of GD2, it's very clear
that the plan was Buffy's. I can't think of any episode in which
he came up with the exact plan of attack, though he has often
made helpful suggestions.
Putting aside the fact that Giles has been sent to the corner
for bad behavior, I'm not sure he'd have done better. Can anyone
name a plan he has offered in S7? S6? S5 (besides "Let's
kill Dawn")? The last time I can remember him offering a
real plan was Primeval.
The only suggestion that makes sense is to use group wisdom
under Buffy's leadership. That is what has worked in the past.
If Buffy can be faulted, it is in failing to take full advantage
of that. But suggesting that someone else be made general simply
ignores the last 4 seasons of the show entirely and much of the
first 2 seasons as well.
[> [> [> [> I never
said Xander, Faith, or Spike should be generals... -- Valheru,
13:23:45 04/23/03 Wed
Between the four of them, I would pick Buffy as leader. Spike
and Faith are too impatient to properly execute a complex plan,
and Xander would no doubt be overwhelmed by the enormity (for
all it's success, the "Graduation Day" battle wasn't
much more complex than the one in "Dirty Girls"). Buffy
is the best choice. Now, if we were talking about Wes, Giles,
Angel, Wood, Gunn, Willow, and Buffy, she might not even make
the top five, but that's neither here nor there.
What I am saying is that, based on the simplicity of the "DG"
plan, one of three things happened: 1) Spike, Faith, and Xander
thought Buffy's plan was so good that any suggested improvements
would hinder a maximized outcome, which makes them look more clueless
than they should be; 2) the final plan did include suggestions
on their part, leaving me surprised that between four relatively
experienced fighters, this was the best they could come
up with? or 3) they did offer good suggestions, but Buffy overruled
them, making her look incredibly stupid.
Look, the only thing the plan apparently consisted of was the
deployment of the forces. 1/4 goes in with Buffy and Spike, 1/4
waits as backup with Faith and Xander, and 1/2 stays at home with
Giles, Willow, Dawn, Anya, and Andrew. To quote Buffy, that's
not "a plan. It's Sesame Street." There was nothing
else to it. There was apparently no plan for what the first wave
of Potentials should do when the Bringers attacked (besides "fight"),
no plan for what Spike or Faith should do (besides "fight"),
no plan for what to do when Caleb showed up (beside "stand
very still, let him knock you out, and then fight"), no plan
for retreat (besides "everyone for themselves, except Xander
who should try to save the unconscious bodies of Buffy, Faith,
and Spike, all while trying not to get killed by the being who
knocked them unconscious"), no plan for finding any weaknesses
of Caleb's (besides "fight until we find a weakness or he
kills us"), and most importantly, no plan for finding out
what it was of Buffy's that Caleb supposedly had.
Generals do not plan battles alone. They rely on maps, local knowledge,
and first-hand experience for how to fight in a certain terrain.
They have spies, scouts, and prisoners who tell them about the
enemy forces. They have officers who appraise them of their own
force's strength and readiness. And then they take all that information
to a war council (which could be one person or one hundred), which
helps them determine the best course of action. The general makes
the ultimate decision, but a good general takes everything the
council suggests into account. A general who takes only his own
council is either a military genius (which clearly isn't Buffy),
or is a person soon to be very humiliated on the battlefield.
Buffy's plan, in and of itself, was very good. But it shouldn't
have been the whole plan. Telling a basketball team to
go out and play hard is a good plan, just don't expect them to
win with it. And while I don't consider Xander, Faith, or Spike
as the epitome of battlefield strategists, the fact that they
have spent considerable amounts of time on battlefields makes
them valuable resources. If Buffy only relies on their fighting
skills and fails to utilize their minds, then she's doing herself
a grave disservice.
[> [> [> [> [>
No, but you referred to them as "her three greatest battlefield
planners" -- Sophist, 14:14:17 04/23/03 Wed
It's that characterization that I question. In fact, I'd go so
far as to say that Spike and Faith are the worst battlefield
planners in the history of the show. Xander at least makes occasional
good suggestions (e.g., Innocence).
As for the others you mentioned, Wes, Angel, Wood, and Gunn are
not physically available, and Giles is not emotionally available
(and I'm not convinced he's much of a planner either). That leaves
Willow, who certainly is loyal and powerful, but I don't remember
her planning much.
I do agree that she should have taken some time to research Caleb.
Frankly, I doubt they would have found much -- they don't have
the resources to investigate. How, then, would they learn more
about Caleb?
You suggest "spies, scouts, and prisoners who tell them about
the enemy forces." If Buffy had sent in anyone else, she'd
now be crucified here and elsewhere for her heartless willingness
to sacrifice others instead of herself (unless she sent in Spike,
since Giles and others would be only too happy to see him staked).
Spies and others have one primary attribute: they are expendable.
Buffy rightly refuses to treat others that way.
I have yet to see a suggestion how Buffy could have learned Caleb's
abilities short of confronting him. Where she's been criticized
on other occasions for going in solo, this time she (a) protected
her base, (b) kept a force in reserve, (c) had a surprise weapon
(Faith), and (d) brought what should have been sufficient force
for any "normal" threat.
There was apparently no plan for what the first wave of Potentials
should do when the Bringers attacked (besides "fight")
There are no "plans" for a firefight. Each action evolves
in distinct ways. There are tactical principles that soldiers
train for, but no "plans" per se.
In any case, the Bringers were a secondary objective to Caleb.
The plan was to kill them if they interfered.
no plan for retreat
Sure there was -- that's one of the principal purposes of a reserve
force.
The biggest flaw I see in all the criticism of Buffy is the implicit
assumption that she was planning the key battle of the whole war.
I don't see it that way. She was conducting a reconnaisance in
force. Very different goals, very different tactics. Her approach
was costly, but quite likely the only available choice.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> I indeedly did -- Valheru, 23:40:36 04/23/03 Wed
Yes, I did refer to Spike, Faith, and Xander as Buffy's greatest
battlefield planners (excluding Giles, who Buffy wouldn't have
asked for help in any case). As you said yourself, Willow hasn't
really planned a battle before. So, of the crew currently in Sunnydale,
who is a better battlefield planner than Spike, Faith,
and Xander? They aren't the best in the world (pretty much anyone
at AI would beat them at chess), but they're the best Buffy's
got.
I do agree that she should have taken some time to research
Caleb. Frankly, I doubt they would have found much -- they don't
have the resources to investigate. How, then, would they learn
more about Caleb?
Agreed. They might have gotten lucky with research, but it's doubtful.
The question, though, isn't whether they could learn more about
Caleb, it's whether Buffy should have gone after him in the way
that she did. For all she knew, Caleb could have been as harmless
as Gachnar the Fear Demon or as deadly as Glory. Doesn't a good
general plan for the worst and hope for the best? If Buffy truly
was planning for the worst, she wouldn't have let her anger at
Giles get in the way of his possibly valuable assistance, nor
would she have left Willow the Superwitch unused. Buffy was just
planning for the kind-of-bad.
If Buffy had sent in anyone else, she'd now be crucified here
and elsewhere for her heartless willingness to sacrifice others
instead of herself (unless she sent in Spike, since Giles and
others would be only too happy to see him staked). Spies and others
have one primary attribute: they are expendable. Buffy rightly
refuses to treat others that way.
Fine, then Buffy could go in as the scout herself. I would suggest
Spike, since he's been portrayed as the Wolverine- type stalker/hunter
who can get in, watch you, then get out without you knowing he
was there. A scout might not have been much help, but at least
they wouldn't have been caught off-guard by the Bringers (Spike
would have been able to smell them and determine their hiding
places). And maybe a scout could come out with enough information
to tell Buffy not to stand there like a stump while Caleb casually
strolls up to her and knocks her out. Besides, if Spike can't
get in and out without being killed (the guy who fights Slayers
for fun and takes beatings from Hellgods), then Buffy might as
well turn everyone around, go home, and come up with another plan.
I have yet to see a suggestion how Buffy could have learned
Caleb's abilities short of confronting him. Where she's been criticized
on other occasions for going in solo, this time she (a) protected
her base, (b) kept a force in reserve, (c) had a surprise weapon
(Faith), and (d) brought what should have been sufficient force
for any "normal" threat.
You seem to be missing the point, though. Killing Caleb wasn't
(or at least, shouldn't) have been the primary objective.
Buffy thought he had something important of hers. The primary
objective was to learn what that thing was, then get it back if
possible. Killing Caleb doesn't achieve that, even possibly hindering
it if he has it hidden somewhere. The secondary objective was
to get as many people out as possible. Remember, the First is
still Buffy's main enemy, so if she loses half the SiT army, Spike,
Faith, and Xander just to kill one Caleb, that leaves her seriously
depleted against the more powerful First. Buffy's plan took that
into account, but that doesn't mean that she couldn't have come
up with an even better plan had she brainstormed with the Gang.
The biggest flaw I see in all the criticism of Buffy is the
implicit assumption that she was planning the key battle of the
whole war. I don't see it that way. She was conducting a reconnaisance
in force. Very different goals, very different tactics. Her approach
was costly, but quite likely the only available choice.
See, I don't have a problem with the plan itself. It was a good,
solid plan. Give it a 5. But a child can come up with a 5. Buffy
alone should be able to do a 6 or 7. With Xander, Faith, and Spike
directly by her side, and Anya, Willow, Dawn, and Andrew available,
they are capable of 8 or 9. And hey, even with a 9, the outcome
still might have been the same, but at least a 9 gives them a
better chance. The only reason anyone made it out of the
winery alive is because Caleb let them leave. Against the Big
Bads, 5's aren't going to cut it.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Re: I indeedly did -- Sophist, 10:44:53
04/24/03 Thu
who is a better battlefield planner than Spike, Faith, and
Xander?
Taken individually, Buffy is. There is a good case to be made
for collective wisdom, however, and Buffy didn't take advantage
of that. Of course, all she heard were objections, not suggestions,
making it hard to remember that.
I would suggest Spike, since he's been portrayed as the Wolverine-type
stalker/hunter who can get in, watch you, then get out without
you knowing he was there.
I think this is a legitimate point. The advantages are those you
mentioned. The big disadvantage I see is this: as DEN pointed
out below, Buffy can't afford to lose many troops. She surely
can't afford to lose one of her top 4 (Faith, Willow, Spike, Buffy).
Sending Spike in alone risks 25% of her elite.
Her plan substantially reduced the risk of loss to the elite,
but had the disadvantage of putting the lower echelons in greater
danger. It's hard to know whether this is a good trade-off, but
I wouldn't argue against it just because it worked out badly.
After all, taken individually, each Potential is relatively unimportant
-- another one can always be called. It's only as a group that
they are significant, and Buffy accounted for that.
Killing Caleb wasn't (or at least, shouldn't) have been the
primary objective.
I agree. Confronting Caleb, however, was important. Only
by confronting him with a top fighter could Buffy learn how dangerous
he was. See above regarding my views on the best alternative.
The only reason anyone made it out of the winery alive is because
Caleb let them leave.
And that is puzzling. I suspect Finn is right -- the FE can't
yet kill Buffy or Faith because it doesn't want another slayer
called. But then why did it disclose Caleb and reveal so much
about him when a surprise attack by him could surely have applied
the coup de grace? I guess we'll find out, but IMO it looks like
an error by the FE.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> Risk vs. greater risk -- Valheru, 13:05:37
04/24/03 Thu
Taken individually, Buffy is. There is a good case to be made
for collective wisdom, however, and Buffy didn't take advantage
of that. Of course, all she heard were objections, not suggestions,
making it hard to remember that.
Well, I meant who's better besides Buffy, but I completely
agree with the rest. The Scoobies spent all their time complaining
about the wisdom of Buffy's plan, rather than coming up with something
better. Which goes back to my original point: Buffy feels like
she has to be the strong leader because no one else is stepping
up to the task, while the Scoobies aren't stepping up because
they don't think Buffy will let them.
She surely can't afford to lose one of her top 4 (Faith, Willow,
Spike, Buffy). Sending Spike in alone risks 25% of her elite.
Yeah, that's the part that worried me about my plan, too. Still,
if Buffy doesn't take some risk, then she won't get anywhere.
IMO, sending Spike (good fighter, hard to kill, stealthy, quick,
and acute senses) in alone to scout the area is less of a risk
than marching a dozen SiTs (poor fighters, easy to kill, somewhat
bumbling, and slow) blindly into a trap. With Faith, Spike, Xander,
and the SiTs at her side, Buffy had a number of options to take,
yet she failed to utilize anything other than their individual
fighting skills.
Another thing to take into account: Buffy's stated purpose for
the attack was to get to Caleb prematurely, before he thinks they
can muster the courage to face him. While tracking the Bringer,
Faith suggests, in addition to reaffirming the Scooby-wisdom that
it's a trap, that the Bringers are already ready for them, therefore
Buffy's sneak attack loses the element of surprise. Buffy discounts
this. Had Buffy scouted ahead a little bit further, even to just
peek through a window, she might have seen the Bringers moving
to hide. The fact that Buffy ignored all the evidence that Caleb
was about to turn her ambush around on her would make me very
angry, if I were a Scooby. Especially if I were Xander, who spent
most of the first 3 season warning Buffy not to ignore
evidence (usually right before he got beaten up). This time, she
ignored evidence and girls got killed and Xander got maimed.
Confronting Caleb, however, was important.
Definitely. I just wouldn't have taken the SiTs along to confront
him. Buffy, Spike, and Faith would have been sufficient to dispatch
of the Bringers (there were only about six of them), then trade
a few punches with Caleb. The SiTs are completely useless against
Caleb, so ultimately, their entire presence was unnecessary.
[> [> [> Mighty Achilles
-- Spike Lover, 10:19:25 04/24/03 Thu
I have been watching 'Helen of Troy' and the intro to the Trojan
War. YOur best warrior (Achilles) is not necessarily the leader.)
Leadership is difficult. Well, we know that. WHen Spike was the
leader of a gang, he was considered pretty pathetic. When Angelus
was the leader of the gang, he did not do anything really, really
phenomenal.
Over there on Angel, Wesley a few seasons ago got his chance to
lead the gang, and did sort of ok. (Remember the Season Final
where they go to the demon dimension and find Fred? There is that
scene where he encourages the inhabitants to rise up, despite
the emmense amount of loss of life that would occur. Gunn pointed
this out, and Wesley knew aleady. It was part of leadership.-
(Heck, they even said it on Star Trek Next Generation- where leadership
is being willing to sacrifice, not only yourself, but perhaps
your best friend who has the ability to fix the warp core.)
I agree. Buffy is not #1 in leadership, but I think this is basically
because she still can not see the big picture. HOw many more eps
are left, and we still don't know what the goal of the FE is?
By now, we knew that Glory wanted to open another dimension and
needed the key to do it.
From Ep 1 this season, we have known that 'it is about Power'.
Is the FE minute by minute removing Buff's? (From the preview-)
is a mutiny next?
Perhaps it is totally ironic. You could say that with Buffy's
ego, she thinks everything is 'about her'. Perhaps, this time
the cause of the big evil is 'about her/because of her'.
[> [> Actually Buffy
is quite a good general... -- CW, 07:34:48 04/23/03 Wed
compared to the First, at least in my opinion as an experienced
wargamer. Where Buffy has built a base of power, the First has
thrown his strongest weapons into the fight, largely unsupported
with no other motive than for their shock value. The bringers
have not noticeably increased their fighting abilities, while
the potentials have surpassed them in strength. This is all Buffy's
doing. Buffy was able to isolate and destory the Turok-han, just
as she did with the Master, Angelus, the Mayor, Adam and Glory.
If the First isn't anymore clever than he has been in the past,
she'll do the same with Caleb.
The one area, Buffy is lacking and always has been lacking in
is 'military' intelligence. The villains always seem to have a
much better idea of what she is planning, than she does about
their plans. Worse she always insists on using herself as the
sole scout for her 'army' which not only limits her vision of
the situation, but frequently puts everyone else in danger. She's
gotten better at delegating authority over the years, but Giles'
and Wood's attempted coup against Spike didn't help her in that
department one bit. The First on the other hand seems to have
first hand information about everything discussed aloud at the
Summers' house. Is Giles still perhaps some sort of ringer, working
occaisionally for the First? It's far fetched, but things seem
to go better when he's out of town. Or it's possible that since
Buffy's been dead, the First has a limited ability to read her
mind.
[> [> [> Or it can
just make itself invisible and eavesdrop whenever it wants
-- Finn Mac Cool, 08:58:40 04/23/03 Wed
[> [> Re: Buffy should
be relieved of "Command". (Spoilers for DG) -- WickedBuffy
(droning on and on as it rains and rains here), 11:34:08 04/23/03
Wed
I agree with Sophist - it should be a group leadership/a team
one rather than a dictatorship, which is how it looked when they
were all standing around mentioning caution and traps, etc - then
Buffy does it her way.
The group (basically Buffy, Willow, Giles, Xander plus Anya) plus
Andrew. Seriously, Andrew is a wealth of strategies. Even though
he is laughed at when he mentions Star Wars battles or some such
- alot of those movie scenes are based on actual historical battles.
Anya has demon background, Xander has military background, Willow
is brainy, has witch powers AND surfs the internet like a pro.
Even Dawn is becoming a great little researcher. Giles has all
the Watcher background of learning PLUS his own early experiences
as a magic rebel-rouser. Buffy can kick ass in high heels and
a miniskirt. When she goes out and fights an evil, she comes back
with info they can all digest and give input on according to what
happened based on their own specialties. What about each SITs
strengths and weaknesses? Does Buffy make the most of those? She
seems to barely notice. And with Caleb she reacted, not acted
- which is usually not a strong postition.
As for Giles stepping back a few seasons ago to make Buffy step
up to responsibility - it wasn't to make her "Queen".
It was because she was leaving things to Giles that SHE should
have been doing even if she wasn't a Slayer - talking to Dawn
about going out with the wrong boys, leaving mundane chores to
others, letting other people make plans while she rolled in angst
over some guy.
She was using the others, mostly Giles, as a crutch. GIles had
to leave so Buffy was forced to mature, she absolutely didn't
do it when he was there to handle things. (No different than a
parent letting their 18 year old learn the hard ways, at times,
but stepping out of the way so they DO learn. Giles wasn't replaced
by Buffy anymore than the parent is replaced by the young adult
child. Neither can learn the life lessons for the other - it has
to be done individually.)
I can't recall in any Slayer history dialogue where it proclaims
one of the Slayer duties as stating the Slayer must be a Leader.
To be the demon killer, yes - to manage a demon killing team?
Nope. And the SITs are being trained that same way - to fight
individually, not *with* each other. As mentioned before, why
didn't more people gang up on Caleb at the same time? (Like someone
mentioned before, Buffy to the front and then Spike and Faith
jumping him from behind.) Everyone on Buffys team reacted when
it came to working together - if they saw someone getting nearly
strangled, THEN they would attempt run over and help.
A good leader knows his or her own weak areas and makes sure to
recognize the people who are gifted in those areas. A good leader
listens. A good leader senses when the team needs moral support
or physical improvements. A good leader can see the big picture
and also the little pieces that make up the big picture. A good
leader wisely uses the strongest abilities of each person to strategize
and fight. A good leader accepts being the leader and knows the
value of wise council. (The Scoobies Plus some) Who puts the team
and the goal before their own agendas (Spike). Who builds morale
by education, not drilling information into people. A leader acknowledges
the fears and worries of the team, shows understanding, THEN explains
why it's so important to fight harder. And teaches them HOW to
fight harder. Their dedication and focus in battle needs to come
from inside them, not because someone yelled at them that they
had to do it.
Buffy reminds me of the leader in those war movies where the seasoned
veterans don't even want to know and won't learn the names of
the green soldiers just coming into the platoon. It wasn't worth
it because the new soldiers were most likely just going to die
anyway. The seasoned survivors protected themselves emotionally
and psychologically that way. No forming attachments - less pain.
Buffy seems to be doing something similar with the SITs. Which
doesn't do much for keeping the newbies confidence or sense of
unity strong. Which self sabotages the team, too.
Get a quorum going. Pinpoint strong abilities and use them. Work
as teams within the team.
Why am I still worrying about the bodies of the dead SITs left
with Caleb, though? If he didn't have something of Buffys before,
he does now.
And what would happen if Buffy asked FE what it really wanted
and why? Has she ever sent a message to FE as FE has sent to her?
I haven't noticed the FE being secretive about anything, really.
Can Buffy be a bargaining chip, then - since she is what FE wants
to keep alive? What could it hurt to ask directly instead of guessing
or theorizing and reacting to whatever FE sends out next? Nothing
else seems to work.
Does Caleb represent Buffys vanity?
Did the Turok Han represent Buffys reliance on brute force.
[> Fortunes of War --
Rufus, 03:54:59 04/23/03 Wed
I agree with what you have said for the most part. Buffy did plan
well, she checked the place out, but then she encountered an opponent
that she hadn't known existed til very recently.
Caleb appeared to be human, didn't do anything that indicated
that he was stronger than any other man. Buffy knew that the First
was no corporeal, so she expected either Bringers or possibly
another Turok Han. Nothing prepared her for what looked like an
ordinary preacher who turned out to be a ringer (I'm not talking
about the funny bells going off in his head). If you consider
the conversation Caleb had with the First you can see why she
picked this guy to represent the cause....
Buffy/First: Most people don't like visits from their dead,
you know.
Caleb: Heathens, no appreciation for life's pleasures.....Do it
again.
Buffy/First: I take requests...one of those potentials you killed
perhaps?
Caleb: Nah...save them for later, I'm in a more old memory lane
kind of mood. Back before I met you there was this choir girl
in Knoxville I used to give singing lessons to. She even screamed
on key. Show me her.
Buffy/First: All these girls followed you willingly...you tricked
them.
Caleb: I only told them the truth, as for following, well that
seems to be what they do best.
Caleb said a real truth about the Potentials as they are now.
They are just followers, not soldiers that are cooperating fully
in this war. This is part of the tactic the First uses...divide
an conquer. Caleb is like holding out candy to babies, he looks
'nice'. But this guy has moved on from tricking little girls into
traps...he wants to go back to the beginning where he thinks the
problem started....and this time he's handing out the apple.
So, what's Buffy to do. All I can say is sometimes the best victories
follow the most bitter defeats.
Buffy has led a charge that was unsuccessful, and some of the
Potentials now resent the person they thought was there to protect
them. That is a major part of the problem, until they look to
themselves to help by helping themselves, they will continue to
look like a kid's pajama party with weapons. Hard to be a General
when most of your soldiers would rather have Starbucks parties.
Battles have losers and winners, but only one side can win a war.....so,
if this guy is so strong why didn't he finish Buffy off when he
had the chance? The bugger knocked her out and proceeded to play
with everyone like they were cat toys.
[> [> I forgot....spoilers
and dialogue for Dirty Girls - - Rufus, 03:58:51 04/23/03
Wed
[> [> Re: Fortunes of
War -- CW, 06:47:57 04/23/03 Wed
I believe that it is important to the First that Buffy stays alive.
He has said it before that the others around her must go first,
and Buffy, however she figured it out, seems to be aware of the
same thing.
Keeping Buffy alive is (at least in my theory of what's going
on) both necessary and the fatal flaw in the First's plans.
[> [> [> Re: Historical
parallel? -- DEN, 17:08:35 04/23/03 Wed
Most of the parallels employed so far have been to small- scale
ground war. It seems to me, though, that Buffy's situation is
like that of RAF Fighter Command in the 1940 Battle of Britain.
The challenge was not to meet every German attack directly, force
on force, but to husband scarce resources of planes and pilots,
making sure that the fight could be sustained next day. In other
words, the real problem was not tactical, not strategic, but grand
strategic: if Fighter Command went under, the war was lost. So
it is with Buffy. If her team goes down, it's all over. And her
people are correspondingly not expendable in marginal engagements.
Any ideas, CW or other gamers/historians?
[> [> [> [> Spain
1809. Rome 215 b.c. US 1777. -- Sophist, 17:36:14 04/23/03
Wed
These are all parallels in one sense. In each of these cases,
however, they knew generally what they were up against. Buffy
did not know about Caleb.
I still think it makes most sense to think of Buffy's raid as
a reconnaisance. She had to find out what Caleb could do. Small
risk raids wouldn't generate that information. Only a direct confrontation
between Caleb and either Buffy, Faith, Spike or Willow would have
let her know how tough he turned out to be. She really can't afford
to lose any of these. Thus, her raid in force makes sense -- she
could learn what she needed while reducing as much as possible
the risk of such a severe loss.
But it sure looks like Dieppe.
[> [> [> [> Jutland
1916 -- CW, 21:47:55 04/23/03 Wed
The largest naval gun battle in history, and one of the most controversial.
The German Navy had superior veseels and superior tactics. The
British caught the Germans in a position that had the places been
reversed would have obliiterated the British Fleet and "lost
the war in an afternoon." But, the German Fleet with superior
tacitcs managed to slip away, after causing more damage to British
than they suffered. Who won the battle? It's been argued for most
of a century now. The point is it doesn't matter. The British
won strategically because their Fleet remained in being and the
sea route to England remained open.
No matter how much damamge Caleb and the First inflict on Buffy
and the potentials, if any of them survives, indeed if the world
survives without a slayer, Buffy wins.
[> Re: Tactics and strategy,
BTVS style. (Spoilers through Dirty Girls) -- Angelus,
01:37:30 04/24/03 Thu
What I kept thinking during that scene was:
It seems it was Caleb that destroyed the Watcher's Council or
arranged it.
It seems he did it by planting a bomb and blowing up the building.
Buffy oh so intelligently took Faith and every last potential
with her to the fight. This is brilliant strategy. This allows
for the likely chance of the entire slayer line being wiped out
in one battle.
I wanted to cry, Joss pleeeeaaaase, let me play Caleb in this
scene. No fight. Just some nicely placed explosives. Problem solved.
No Buffy. No Faith. No Potentials. No slayer line. I win.
Luckily, Caleb was having a selective intelligence problem as
much as Buffy was though its clear Buffy has never read a book
on strategy. Then again, Buffy doesn't read. In her case, the
"Never put your entire chain of command in danger" rule
would be "Never put the entire slayer line in danger"
rule.
[> [> She didn't
-- Finn Mac Cool, 04:54:51 04/24/03 Thu
She specifically said she was only taking the most well trained
potentials with her, the ones most capable of handling themselves
in battle. The others were left behind in the Summers House with
Willow and Giles to look over them. Even if Caleb had killed them
all, the Slayer line still wouldn't be ended.
Also, there are two very good reasons for why Caleb didn't use
a bomb:
1) In "Showtime", the First Evil told the Turok-Han
to kill everyone but "her", which more likely than not
means Buffy. In the same episode, we learned that Buffy's resurrection
somehow allowed the First to have increased influence in the world.
Thus it's safe to assume that it doesn't want Buffy dead, at least
not yet, and bombs are indicriminate killers.
2) It hurts the show's suspension of disbelief. Throughout the
show's history, guns and other modern weapons are used very sparingly.
But, if you suddenly have a bad guy who constantly pulls out pipe
bombs or the like whenever there's a problem, it becomes harder
to simply ignore the question "Why doesn't anyone else do
that? Why don't vampires or demons think to carry guns in case
they run into the Slayer? Or, for that matter, why don't the Scoobies
and the potentials pack heat as well to fight demons that attack?"
Besides, Buffy didn't know Caleb blew up the Council. Without
that knowledge, she has to assume that he will limit himself to
hand-to-hand or medieaval weapons, like almost every other villain
in Sunnydale.
[> [> [> Re: She didn't
-- Angelus, 22:43:32
04/24/03 Thu
I'd tend to agree with your asessment and I didn't remember that
she didn't take all the potentials. But I thought the Eye said
it was the imbalance in the Slayer that had allowed the FE into
the world. I thought that when Giles or Anya then said that it
was because they brought her back from the dead, the Eye said
no not her resurrection, the imbalance in the slayer. Am I remembering
it wrong?
[> [> [> [> hmmm,
I thought it was *around* the Slayer -- WickedIdiot (vague
"where the watchers went" spoiler), 20:21:02 04/25/03
Fri
... and if Caleb can used bombs, Buffy should now be able to use
Uzi's.
an eye for an eye
return fire with fire
all that ...
[> [> But Caleb is SO
the Drama King (Spoilers through Dirty Girls) -- WickedBuffy,
20:20:00 04/25/03 Fri
If he just blew up Buffy and the SITs... or even just threw Buffy
against one wall and everyone else against another and blew THAT
wall up (thereby keeping Buffy alive)...
well then ol' Caleb wouldn't be able to do what he loves to do.
Gloat... preach... judge ... preach ... blame.... did I say preach
enough? He absolutely LOVES the game and the talking - look at
the chat he had with the girl he gutted and tossed out the pickup.
And when he's playing "dress up like some girl I used to
know so I can gut her" with The First.
Caleb is as much a man of many words as the UberVamp was of absolutely
none.
[> Never attack what your
enemy defends (rant, you are warned) -- Earl
Allison, 03:41:59 04/25/03 Fri
I have to be honest, Buffy's plan bordered on the absurd.
She KNEW she was going into a trap, and took several unskilled
fighters with her. Molly had no place being there, you could SEE
that she couldn't handle herself.
As for the plan initially going well, I can't accept that, either.
The Bringers seemed to fight a LOT better after the trap had been
sprung. It seems to me that Buffy did exactly what Caleb wanted.
I still can't understand the rationale for her going after Caleb
at all. Did she really expect to hit him before he knew she was
coming -- despite the fact that his message was DESIGNED to get
her to come to him?
If she was concerned that he had another Potential, why not have
Willow verify that with a locator spell? Whatever he had of hers,
she clearly wasn't missing it, and if it WAS a Potential, given
her mentality of no one but Spike being important, and her rant
about Chloe being stupid, why would she even care? One dead or
tortured Potential wasn't worth the price she paid; two deaths
and two maimings.
Why NOT bring the rocket launcher (from "Him"), even
with the second group? After retreating with the wounded, she
could have destroyed the winery and ended the threat entirely?
Buffy had an idea, and she was damned if she was willing to listen
to anyone else on the subject. Giles and Xander both voiced objections,
but General Buffy not only claimed to know better, but had the
gall to snipe at Giles. I really, really hope she feels like dirt,
because "Dirty Girls" made it abundantly clear to this
viewer that Buffy has PLENTY left to learn.
Even more galling? Buffy's speech a few episodes back about not
sitting around and waiting for the First -- isn't that pretty
much what she HAS done? Suddenly she has to act now, on a cryptic
comment from an unknown enemy?
I'm sorry, but I chalk it all up to stupidity on the level of
her second confrontation and script-ex-machina victory over the
Turok-Han. Frankly, she should have failed as disasterously then,
as well, because her plans have gotten worse over time, not better.
All IMHO, as if you couldn't guess.
I think I need to take a leave from the Boards -- you all are,
IMHO, putting a LOT more thought, effort and metaphor into BtVS
than I think ME is. I just don't see the effort anymore, shots
are poorly framed, a show consisting of little more than talking
heads doesn't actually convey any information, UPN's dictates
have added tons of exposition to the show, and I find more and
more of the "heroes" reprehensible or outright wretched
(Spike, now Buffy).
Worse is already knowing about the spoiler that might be linking
Buffy's finale to Angel S5 -- all I can say is, that's too bad,
because I was getting to like Angel, and now I won't be able to.
Take it and run, and be well, all of you.
[> [> Stick around, Earl,
you're in good company here . . . -- d'Herblay, 21:38:16
04/25/03 Fri
. . . with that last bit, anyway. (I'm principledly agnostic on
all things tactical.)
[> [> One little comment
here, Earl -- OnM, 15:46:49 04/26/03 Sat
*** You all are, IMHO, putting a LOT more thought, effort and
metaphor into BtVS than I think ME is. ***
Well, yeah-- that's our job! If ME put as much time into
thinking about the show as we did, they'd never get more than
5 or 6 shows a year done!
;-)
[> [> Agree, but
-- luna, 18:09:17 04/26/03 Sat
I definitely agree--it's not what it used to be. The writing and
acting bother me immensely--sometimes it seems like Days of Our
Lives. When you watch the reruns and then the current episodes,
there's no comparison. BUT it's the home stretch, the ninth inning,
so stick around and see how they wind it up.
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