September Archives

September 2004 posts

Previous September 2004
More September 2004

Angel Season 2, eps 1-4 -- Masq, 07:03:23 09/14/04 Tue

Judgment

There is an interesting little anecdote about the opening scene of Judgment, and I don't remember where I heard it, because once Season 2 started, the ATPo board had been going about four months, and I might have heard it at ATPo, or I might have heard it at the Bronze.

Anyway, the anecdote goes like this. Someone's spouse was watching "Buffy vs. Dracula", the BtVS season premier for the 2000-2001 season, and thought it was pretty lame. So then BtVS ends and Angel starts and the first thing you see on the screen is this green demon with red horns. And the person's spouse says, "Now, see, on Angel they have *real* demons. Actually *scary* demons!"

At which point the demon proceeds to sing "I Will Survive" like a big green Disco Queen.

Angel the Series: it's not just Morally Ambiguous Noir Angst.

It's Los Angeles!

*Loves Lorne*

Lorne may have been sadly underused in later seasons, but I never stopped loving him.

And how brilliant was the idea of Caritas? At the time I thought it was Lame with a capital L. Probably because I hate Karaoke and I like my demons scary just like FanSpouse did.

But Caritas became a lot more morally ambiguous with time. And it became Angel's home-away-from-home. It was where he went to get advice from the pal who replaced Doyle as his demon confidant. It was where the gang went to hang out. And it was where Connor was born (OK, in the alley behind). Caritas is exactly the sort of place you'd expect to find in the demon-infected entertainment capital of the world. Caritas IS Angelverse Los Angeles.

OK, enough about that place.

This episode also introduces the Hyperion.

*sob*! I miss the Hyperion. It's home, you know? It's where everything happened. All the pain and the heartache and the happy moments. The good news is, ME was planning on blowing up the Hyperion at the end of Season 4 and they didn't. I don't think I could have taken the death of *that* too, on top of everything else.

Anyway, so in this episode, Angel is hell-bent on getting the toy surprise at the bottom of the Champion box, and in his enthusiasm, inadvertently kills another Champion. He then proceeds to soak up the guilt and angst about how he thought he was gonna Shanshu any second now - all he had to do was put in enough fighting. Then Cordelia gives him an interesting speech. She tells him that he will get there, and she'll be with him until he does.

And you believe her. And you believe the writers believe her. That was the plan. Cordelia has spent a year helping Angel at this point. She's been stuck with the visions, she suffered through the spell that forced her to experience everyone else's pain in TSILA. She is a different person now. Growing, changing. She's going to have a hell of a life as a Champion of Good.

Sigh. Things never quite work out the way they're planned though. Especially in episodic television.

The highlight of Judgment is of course, Faith!! At the time it aired, it was an unexpected little treat. THIS is why it's good to stay unspoiled kids. This is it in a nutshell.

And Faith's appearance wasn't a throw-away gift, either. It was a necessary bridge for the character, to span the gap between Sanctuary and Salvage. We see her in her prison context, working on herself. And Angel's visit is a meeting between a former evil-a-holic and her sponsor. Two people who care about each other talking about the journey to redemption.

Oh, and out-takes of Boreanaz singing Mandy. Run screaming! Teehee.

AYNOHYEB

OK, I know I'm alone in this, but I think AYNOHYEB is overrated. People I admire inevitably give it the 9 or 10 out of 10 or rate it as the best Second Episode of all five seasons and wax on about the color and the lighting and the themes and the mood and the metaphors.

But I find it kind of boring.

I know, I'm an unschooled plebeian.

The episode is set in the 1950's, which is probably my least favorite era, ever, and though setting the story in this decade allows for nifty metaphors of paranoia and conformity and sets up the whole noir thing in spades and I'm supposed to be uncomfortable with it because that's the mood they're creating, I'm still sort of more... bored.

But let me focus on the positive.

At the time this episode aired, AYNOHYEB was the first attempt to fill in Angel's history *AS* souled Angel (rather than as Angelus) between the 1898 re-ensouling in Becoming/Five By Five and the 1996 alley way scene in Becoming.

I remember people complained after watching this episode that Angel living more or less competently in a comfortable hotel in 1952 broke continuity with the rat-eating Angel of Becoming. Which just goes to show you that fans will complain about anything, because I could have written you a narrative back when AYNOHYEB first aired about how he got from the 50's hotel to that alley - long before episodes like Darla and Orpheus and Why We Fight filled in more of those gaps.

As Tim Minear argued, Angel was souled for 100 years - that's a long time. He didn't go straight from the alley in Five By Five to the alley in Becoming. A lot of Shit Happened, good, bad and indifferent, and in AYNOHYEB, we still get a big sense of Angel's isolation from humanity - in it, but not really in it at all.

Another thing I liked about AYNOHYEB is Denver the bookstore owner. A great character. I was glad they could bring him back in the present in Reprise. Characters like that--interesting and 3-dimensional even though they are bit-parts--are part of what made AtS great. They made that unreal world seem real.

And it's not just the people, but places that did this as well. AYNOHYEB is the episode that establishes the Hyperion as the new home/base of operations for the gang. In 2000, "The Hotel" as we would come to know it, was introduced through its history. In Angel's present-day (2000), it's a mysterious run-down place full of trash and dusty cobweb-covered objects left behind from 70 long years. In one era of that stretch of time that we see, the 1950's, it is filled with strangers who saw as a temporary lodging.

Four years later, though, it's hard to see the place through those unfamiliar eyes. I know The Hotel like I know my favorite pair of old shoes. I look at the '50's scenes set in the Hyperion and I'm like, "Hey--that's where Cordelia did this and Angel did that and Wesley and Fred and Gunn and Connor...." This place oozes history, but it's not the pre-2000 history that interests me.

In some ways, the Hyperion *is* AtS for me. It's the show's heart. Its home.

First Impressions

My first attempt to write about First Impressions started veering into this long tangent about the metaphysical, moral, and emotional complexity that is Angel and Darla's relationship. After two or three pages, though, I realized I had a whole essay topic. So I'll spare you most of my thoughts right now and save them for another time.

The thing that's hard to remember about Darla while re-watching early Season 2 is that we didn't find out she was human until the end of "Dear Boy", when she ran out into the sunlight. They saved that little factoid as a surprise.

One way they created that surprise was by having Darla act pretty much like you'd expect an unsouled vampire to act for the first few episodes. She's going along with Wolfram and Hart's plan to torment Angel with eager glee. She doesn't have her big "soul break-down" until the beginning of ...Darla?

They don't really ever bother to explain why Darla isn't instantly plagued by her conscience, why its influence builds gradually, and I remember fans noticing it and questioning it at the time. Now, though, it's sort of a given that the experience of having a soul after one has lived without a soul for a long time is different for everybody. Angel isn't Spike isn't Darla.

Watching this episode, I can't help but wonder - just what *are* Angel(us') and Darla's feelings for each other, over the span of 250 years, and how do they change? You can argue that Angel-with-a-soul has intense feelings for Darla because now he can, and now human!Darla can have feelings in return, especially after all Angel does to try to help her in subsequent episodes.

But what about before that? What about when they were Darla and Angelus, soulless vampires? The canonical writer's blahblahblah is that they didn't love each other, that unlike Spike, or James and Elisabeth in Heartthrob, they were somehow incapable of it.

But I believe this is one of those cases where the writers SAY one thing and SHOW another.

I mean, 150 years together - if that's not love of *some kind* then I don't know what is. Passion wears out. Obsession exhausts itself. Domesticity and commitment, OTOH, take work. And when you're soulless and have no qualms about anything, and can and DO take off on your own whenever you want (and they did, from time to time), to still come back together over and over again - *that's love*. It just isn't the sort of love that's easily defined and recognizable.

Darla and Angel(us) were many, many things to each other, and that's what makes their relationship so rich. If I ever do write my hypothetical essay, I want to explore all the facets of it -- the one-hundred-and-one variations on archetypal coupledom that these two characters have played out vis- -vis each other over the centuries.

As a soulless vampire, Darla was seductress, mother, mentor, lover, wife, and friend to Angelus. After he was souled, she was his rejector, then the blindly hopeful ex whose hopes were dashed and disappointed ("Darla"). In BtVS Season 1, she was the long-ago ex going after her younger rival, trying to bring out in Angel the things she once had from him. Now Darla returns, seducing Angel in his dreams as the perfect date, the vulnerable damsel, and the sweet wife who offers theBigChampionMan domesticity and home.

That Darla can *do* this, that Angel would let the dreams seduce him rather than wonder "why am I dreaming about sweet domestic Darla? Like *that* would happen!" means he doesn't find it so entirely implausible that she could be those things to him. Or at least, those are the very sorts of fantasies he had about her at some point in the past.

And Darla knows him pretty darned well, soulless or souled. She knows all the wildly different things that can seduce him.

They are all these things to each other. And I haven't even gotten to the unexpected twists of Season 3 yet.

OK. Other stuff happened in First Impressions as well. Non-Darlus stuff. The basic plot of this episode is, "Dude, where's my car?" Cordelia tries to help Gunn, ends up losing Angel's car in the process, and so Gunn and Cordelia set out to find it.

Watching this episode, I think of roads not traveled. Gunn/Cordelia! Two big heads from different sides of the tracks butt and an interesting alchemy ensues. The bickering was hilarious. But ME never really revisited that chemistry, did they?

Note on Gunn's evolution: In my previous review, I pondered how Gunn got from the guy he is in War Zone to the guy he was by the Pylea eps. As this episode starts, Gunn is still the impatient hot-head. The only difference is, now he's hyper-vigilant on top of that. The lesson he took from Alonna's death was that he couldn't lower his guard for a second, and so now he goes around banging heads to keep himself and his "people" ready for any and all trouble.

Cordelia tells him he is creating more trouble for himself than he avoids this way. Nice to have someone blunt around to tell you what she thinks.

Untouched

"Untouched" is one of the "women of power" episodes like Damage or Consequences, 5x5, and Sanctuary. A traumatized woman with supernatural powers has to learn how to control her power rather than channel it into her trauma/let the power control her.

Bethany is more screwed up than insane like Dana (Damage), and unlike Faith, she doesn't feel in control of her supernatural powers (Faith feels in control in S3/S1; whether she really is is a separate question). But, like Faith, it's her self-image that's crippling her.

The "woman of power" episodes give Angel a chance to be a mentor to those with power, to teach them to realize that the power is theirs to control, to use for good or ill, and then to teach them how to control it. I don't have a list of episodes where Angel mentors those with supernatural gifts, but I want to say they're all women, with the exception of Connor, who Angel tried to mentor, even if he didn't succeed.

As with Angel's other "women of power" episodes, ME pulls no punches with Bethany. She was sexually abused as a child, and as an adult, she navigates her way through the world as a sexual landscape. That's what she knows: fear, sex, and power. "If I make myself the willing victim, I feel in control of my inevitable victimization". She is both victim and user. What she needs to learn is how to choose not to be a victim at all.

Contrasted to Bethany is Lilah, who is presented in this episode as the prototypical corporate woman struggling to prove she's just as ruthless as any man in her firm. And the scary part is, she IS just as ruthless. In fact, she's more ruthless than Lindsey could ever hope to be, because she doesn't seem to have that pesky thing Lindsey is loathed to call his conscience.

But Lindsey somehow gets the benefit of the doubt he's proven he doesn't deserve, while Lilah gets a nice patronizing speech from the boss. They're setting up the Lindsey/Lilah rivalry that's going to be so delicious this season. You gotta love them W&H lawyers. More fantastic characters in this fantastic 'verse.

Replies:

[> Re: Angel Season 2, eps 1-4 -- riding_on_this_train, 10:01:37 09/14/04 Tue

I think AYNOHYEB works better in terms of cinematography than in terms of story. They wanted to provide the place with some back-up story, but somehow it didn't work. I love Wesley's desolation in the end though: "I've never been accused of being paranoid....unless people are saying that behind my back" LOL
I agree with you about the Hyperion. That place was certainly HOME. And it was nice from the writers that the series ended precisely not in any alley, but on the alley behind the Hyperion.

[> [> Disagreed re: AYNOHYEB... -- Rob, 10:23:32 09/14/04 Tue

It's one of my favorite standalones in the series history and is the episode that made me think to myself, "I adore this show" for the first time. Visually, yes, it's brilliant, but the plotting, characterizations, and central metaphor are equally brilliant.

Rob

two things on Buffy that i will NEVER buy -- ghady, 10:29:19 09/14/04 Tue

1) Buffy's sick cousin, Cilia. It's just too fake, too wrong, too... standaloneish. I will not ever believe that Buffy actually HAD a cousin whose death caused her deep psychological trauma.

2) That Buffy told her parents she was a Slayer back in LA. Again, this just seems like a cheap plot device for Normal Again. Now had Joyce said something like "oh, God, not AGAIN" in Becoming, i would've found that concept a bit easier to digest.

Replies:

[> Re: two things on Buffy that i will NEVER buy -- CW, 11:12:29 09/14/04 Tue

I agree with 2. But I chalk it up to the effects of the what the demon did to her. I think she was genuinely confused about what was real and what wasn't during the episode. Some people think it makes sense otherwise. Like you, I don't. Joyce wasn't that forgetful, in my opinion.

The Weight of the World the season before does set up the fact that Buffy had at least one serious bout of mental problems before Normal Again. But, I don't think that translates into her parents sending her off for mental evaluation over vivid 'delusions of vampires" and then totally forgetting about it within a couple years.

[> [> Two explanations: -- Finn Mac Cool, 11:31:07 09/14/04 Tue

First, regarding Cilia, she died when Buffy was still in grade school, so it's not like it would be the sort of thing you think or talk about a lot. I mean, I don't ride bicycles anymore cause ten years ago I had an accident on one. I rarely ever think about that and usually it never impacts my life. Cilia's death worked the same way with Buffy; it made her afraid of hospitals but, if hospitals don't come into the equation, she doesn't think about it.

As for "Normal Again" we must remember that that episode occured after Dawn was introduced into Buffy's life by the monks spell. In one of the Buffy comics ("Slayer, Interrupted"), Buffy only gets sent to the asylum after Dawn reads through her diary and blabs about all the demons and vampires in it to their parents. It's entirely possible that, in pre-Dawn reality, Buffy was never in an institution, but that, after reality was altered to include Dawn, she was.

[> [> Re: two things on Buffy that i will NEVER buy -- Rook, 14:06:50 09/14/04 Tue

Again, I call "Dawn-verse" on this #2. In the seasons 1-4 that we saw, Buffy first told her mom about the vampires post Sunnydale. In the monk-constructed memories of seasons 5-7, Buffy's parents heard about those things earlier, most likely because of Dawn.

There really isn't any reason for post BvD recollections to correspond 100% with what we saw on screen in seasons 1-4.

[> [> [> Re: two things on Buffy that i will NEVER buy -- CW, 15:07:05 09/14/04 Tue

My only complaint about the Dawn-verse theory is that it pretty much would have given ME free license to throw continuity out the window with the first four seasons. Since, ME fortunately didn't choose to go that far I think it's more appropriate to look for an episode specific reason the story didn't appear to match what we assumed earlier.

[> [> [> [> Re: two things on Buffy that i will NEVER buy -- Rook, 15:23:35 09/14/04 Tue

I don't know...because of course, the real answer is "With 7 years, god-knows-how-many writers, one Exec Producer who's running 2-3 shows, another exec producer who admits to not even watching or having any but the most rudimentary idea what happened in the first season, things are bound to get a little off in the continuity department", I tend to satisfy myself with whatever in-fiction answer seems to be the most simple.

[> About number 2... -- DorianQ, 17:20:06 09/14/04 Tue

Buffy only mentions vampires and Slayer stuff to Joyce twice previously before Becoming, in The Witch and in Bad Eggs. The first was only the third episode of the series and had a lot of other continuity problems like Giles's first casting and even within the episode itself (when is Amy Amy and her mother her mother?), and the second is seriously my least favorite episode of the series and is written by a writer who admits to not having even watched the first season.

The impression I got from Normal Again (It's been two+ years since I saw it) is that Buffy just went to her parents for advice because she had just encountered this entire world of Vampires and demons and Her Watcher just died. I would think she was more than a little traumatized about everything to begin with. Add to that the inherently ludacris claims of the existence of such creatures and it's no wonder that she would get locked up. She goes into denial and moves away, mentally and physically trying to put all that business behind and making a fresh start in Sunnydale. Two years later, she has a tight circle of friends who support and believe that she is the One chosen to slay Vampires, she adjusted to the role and takes it for granted, and when she tells her mother this time, she doesn't tell her, she shows it by doing slaying one right in front of her, pretty much excluding the possibility that this is just another one of Buffy's delusions, and excluding Oz, this revelation is pretty traumatic. I might say more later, but I'm going to be late.

[> [> Continuing... -- DorianQ, 21:42:38 09/14/04 Tue

Had Joyce actually said "Oh god, not again", that would imply that she still didn't believe Buffy and that she could ignore the crazy man who exploded after her daughter stabbed him in the chest. I don't think she is capable of that kind of denial.

[> [> Re: About number 2... -- shambleau, 12:02:07 09/15/04 Wed

I think some of the posts above have valid ways of approaching the canon contradictions. There's one more. If Buffy really IS in the asylum. Then the contradictions can be seen as being Buffy's fantasies when Buffy's delusions were stronger and now that they're breaking down, the real story is coming out.

Seasons 4, 5, and 7 of Buffy -- BuffyObsessed, 13:48:19 09/14/04 Tue

Currently I own Seasons 1, 2, 3, and 6 of Buffy. Lately I have been pondering buying the 4 and 5th seasons, and then the 7th season when it comes out. (By the way, on a sidenote, when does it come out on DVD?) What seasons do you reccomend I buy out of 4, 5, and 7? Which are the best episodes in each season? Is the 5th season actually that good (I saw a few episodes but it didn't seem that good.)? And finally, which is the best season out of the three?

Replies:

[> Re: Seasons 4, 5, and 7 of Buffy -- CW, 13:59:39 09/14/04 Tue

Ask yourself, do you like seasons one, two and three better or season 6 better. If it's 1 through three then 4 is the logical choice, otherwise if you like 6 better then season 5 has more in common. I'm not running down season 7 just think it's one that doesn't really compare with season 5 for those I've seen who've written about liking season 6.

Season 7 is due out late this fall. I'm going to get it!

[> Re: Seasons 4, 5, and 7 of Buffy -- Rook, 14:10:54 09/14/04 Tue

Generally speaking, most people will tell you that either season 2, 3 or 5 is their favorite. I myself waffle between 3 and 5.

[> Re: Seasons 4, 5, and 7 of Buffy -- BuffyObsessed, 14:22:34 09/14/04 Tue

Another question I forgot to ask, how exactly is season 4. I have seen a couple of the episodes and they were pretty funny (for ex. Something Blue), but one of my friend's said the later episodes weren't that good. Opinions please!

[> [> Re: Seasons 4, 5, and 7 of Buffy -- Rook, 14:42:06 09/14/04 Tue

Season 4 has a number of outstanding individual episodes, 2 of which (Hush and Restless) are on almost everyone's top 10 episodes lists. Something blue, Wild at heart, This Year's Girl and Who are you are also great, IMO. As far as individual eps go, it's as good or better than any other season.

The arc, on the other hand, suffers from a number of behind the scenes changes (Unexpected cast changes), and in the beginning of the season flounders somewhat as they try to reestablish the group dynamic with Angel and Cordy gone. Interestingly, they do a good job dealing with Angel's absence, but they struggle finding someone to take over the role that Cordy had in the group.

[> [> s4: weak arc, good eps -- dmw, 14:45:18 09/14/04 Tue

Season 4 had a weak arc and villains, but some of the best episodes like Hush. The finale is weak, but s4 does offer the post-finale episode Restless as an intriguing alternative. Season 5 has a stronger arc and one of the best season finales, but Glory's not so interesting and the arc doesn't sustain much scrutiny before the illogic shines through. The first three seasons are a must-have, the best of BtVS, but I went ahead and bought seasons 4 and 5 more for certain episodes than overall quality.

[> [> Re: Seasons 4, 5, and 7 of Buffy -- Supafnk, 18:40:54 09/14/04 Tue

I'd say season 4 is the weak one of the bunch. Its still good but I'm a fan of the larger story in season 7 and like how well season 5 moved the charecters along in terms of growing out of seasons 1-3. As far as season 4 goes I have to agree with most of the people that it has some of the best single episodes, but its arc is lacking IMO

~ D

[> [> [> Ditto. -- ghady, 04:30:34 09/15/04 Wed

[> [> Re: Seasons 4, 5, and 7 of Buffy -- Dlgood, 07:28:17 09/15/04 Wed

It'll vary. I didn't like S7 much, and on rewatch found most of the episodes to be excruciatingly dull and the overall arc poorly executed.

The overall arc of S4 isn't particularly strong, but I do think it holds up much better in retrospect, and particularly in comparison to S7.

Which Buffy DVD sets would you recommend? -- Finn Mac Cool, 14:17:21 09/14/04 Tue

I've finally got enough funds in the bank that I'm considering buying one of the Buffy DVD sets. Now, I know I should make my choice based on which season I prefer, but I tend to go back and forth on that. So my question is: based solely on the extra features (interviews, commentaries, deleted scenes, etc.) which season of Buffy is best on DVD?

Replies:

[> The sixth has the most, most extensive, and best extra features. -- Rob, 16:11:12 09/14/04 Tue

[> Agreed, 6 has the most -- Ames, 16:29:13 09/14/04 Tue

See http://tinyurl.com/3hy5b for complete contents.

[> Re: Which Buffy DVD sets would you recommend? -- Supafnk, 18:52:34 09/14/04 Tue

Although every season has some specials, none of them have really stood out as "oh this is sooooo much better than..." Season one is pretty weak on bonuses, other than that I would still judge based on the season you like the most.

~ D

[> Season Seven looks like it will have most and best features when it comes out in Decemeber -- Dan, 07:05:28 09/15/04 Wed

[> [> Re: Season Seven looks like it will have most and best features when it comes out in Decemeber -- Dlgood, 07:26:14 09/15/04 Wed

It better.

Although, S7 did get me to re-evaluate S4, which now looks much better in retrospect. And certainly in comparison to S7.

[> Re: Which Buffy DVD sets would you recommend? -- OnM, 07:19:41 09/16/04 Thu

My favorite seasons are, in this order: 3, 6, 7, 2, 5, 4, 1

Now, having said that, if I put an overall 'quality rating' (0 to 10) to them, it would be something like this:

9.75, 9.00, 8.50, 8.25, 8.00, 7.95, 7.00

Now, on a basis of extra features, so far each season has been better than the last, so at the moment S6 is the DVD package of choice on that basis.

So putting the numbers together, I'd have to vote for S6.

(This is about as close to 'logic' as I can get for what's really ultimately very subjective-- for example, I know I'm in the minority overall in my high regard for Season 7, but there ya are.)

[> [> Re: Which Buffy DVD sets would you recommend? -- Rufus, 16:58:15 09/16/04 Thu

We should start a club. I liked season 7 and can't complain about any of the seasons. So far for extras and the Musical, season 6 has the best extras, my sentimental fav has always been season 5.

[> [> Re: Which Buffy DVD sets would you recommend? -- Jane, 21:02:42 09/18/04 Sat

I join OnM in regards to my appreciation of season 7. I liked it a lot, and it improved on a second go-round. I think I would rate my favourite seasons in this order:
3,6,7,5,2,4,1. Although, this is subject to change depending on which season I am currently watching. I'm not ashamed to admit I love each and every season. It's kind of like asking a parent which child is the favourite one. I haven't actually gone through all my DVDs to check out the features; I have all the seasons out so far.

Charector locations -- Supafnk, 19:23:12 09/14/04 Tue

So I was just wondering where everyone in the buffy verse are all hanging out at this point. This is only my best guess, feel free to fill in the blanks or correct me.

Andrew - Travling in Europe / Rome
Buffy - Travling in Europe / Rome
Dawn - Traveling in Europe / Rome
Ilyria - LA
Angel - LA
Spike - LA
Gunn - Probably dead
Wesley - Dead
Cordy - Dead
Lorne - Vegas?
Gruu - No clue
Gwen - ?
Conor - LA
Giles - England
Xander - Africa?
Willow - Brazil
Tara - Dead
Joyce - Dead
Kenedy - Brazil
Faith - ?
Robin - With faith?
Anya - Dead
Jenny C. - realllllly dead
Oz - ?
Riley - with Sam working for the Gov on x files like stuff

I think I hit everyone more or less. Let me know what I missed.

~ D

Replies:

[> Re: Charector locations -- skpe, 08:17:01 09/15/04 Wed

You forgot Fred really dead. And I don t think Angle and Spike survived that last fight

[> [> Re: Charector locations -- Kana, 02:53:17 09/16/04 Thu

I'm not certain whether Angel and Spike survived or not but shouldn't we take into consideration the 'Shanshu' Prophecy?

[> Re: Charector locations -- Evan, 08:44:45 09/15/04 Wed

You can't really say for Angel/Spike/Gunn/Illyria. According to Joss, the season would've ended that way (except for Wes dying) whether there was a season 6 or not, so I really don't think they were all going to die, or any of them actually.

[> Re: Charector locations -- q 3, 20:38:04 09/15/04 Wed

I imagine Connor is in Stanford, CA, where he is attending college.

happy birthday, ann! -- anom, 21:24:47 09/14/04 Tue

Replies:

[> Happy Birthday, Ann! Best wishes from a fellow Virgo. -- cjl, 07:01:56 09/15/04 Wed

[> & today...happy birthday, onm! -- anom, 08:18:17 09/15/04 Wed

Yes, already. Did you know there's a button that says, "WARNING Objects in calendar are closer than they appear"?

[> [> Happy birthday, OnM -- Ann, 08:27:48 09/15/04 Wed

Have a great day!!!

[> [> [> Re: Happy birthday, OnM -- CW, 10:11:48 09/15/04 Wed

Amazing how many of us were born in September. Have a good one!

[> [> [> [> Happy Birthday, OnM! -- Jane, 17:37:12 09/15/04 Wed

Hope you have a great day, with cake. :)

[> [> And to Anom, Cheryl, Rob and the rest of our Jewish friends, Happy New Year! -- CW, 10:23:00 09/15/04 Wed

[> [> [> Re: And to Anom, Cheryl, Rob and the rest of our Jewish friends, Happy New Year! -- Cheryl, 12:12:26 09/15/04 Wed

Thanks, CW. This is kind of a weird High Holiday season for me since I'll be in Hawaii on Yom Kippur and I usually fast. Don't know yet if I will this year.

Very happy birthday wishes to Ann.

Amazing how many of us were born in September.

CW, when is/was your birthday? I haven't been visiting the board as much lately and would hate to have missed your birthday. I think we're overdue for another get together so I think a birthday celebration is in order.

[> [> [> [> Re: And to Anom, Cheryl, Rob and the rest of our Jewish friends, Happy New Year! -- CW, 12:30:49 09/15/04 Wed

You can find it on my lj info page.

[> [> [> thanks, cw! l'shanah tovah to all who celebrate it, & happy birthday to you (whenever it is)! -- anom, 15:14:27 09/15/04 Wed

[> [> I hope you had a great birthday, OnM. -- Arethusa, 20:20:20 09/15/04 Wed

[> And many, many more happy ones Ann. -- Briar Rose, 16:10:35 09/15/04 Wed

[> Thanks everyone!! I had a great day -- Ann, 04:22:14 09/16/04 Thu

[> Thanks to all! -- OnM, 07:02:20 09/16/04 Thu

"You're shaking like a leaf"---> i cringe every time i hear angel say that line. -- ghady, 10:58:18 09/15/04 Wed

Replies:

[> Uh, why? *nt* -- Corwin of Amber, 19:41:01 09/15/04 Wed

[> [> Cuz, imo, it's one of the corniest lines ever to be spoken. It's also too poetic for discourse. -- ghady, 03:57:27 09/16/04 Thu

[> [> [> Actually it's a fairly common phrase in english -- Ames, 07:45:40 09/16/04 Thu

[> [> [> [> i know, but if a person I knew were shaking, i wouldn't have said "you're shaking like a leaf". -- ghady, 07:53:32 09/16/04 Thu

i would've said something like "oh God, look at you, you're shaking".. sthg a bit more commonplace than "like a leaf." i dunno.. it sounded "wrong".. just my opinion.

[> Hey hey hey -- Jay, 19:09:41 09/16/04 Thu

From Stevie Ray Vaughn's "Look at Little Sister"

Shaking like a tree.
Rolling like a log.
Shakin now, rollin now.
That ain't all.

[> [> is that a poem? cuz i wasn't talking about poetry. i was talking abt Surprise from BS2. -- ghady, 07:28:49 09/17/04 Fri

[> [> It's a rock and roll song -- Vickie, 12:53:08 09/17/04 Fri

ghady, where do you hail from?

[> [> [> ooooh it's a song.. i hail from lebanon.. why? -- ghady, 13:04:43 09/17/04 Fri

[> [> [> [> Just curious -- Vickie, 18:06:17 09/17/04 Fri

We have pretty far-flung members here, but you're the first from Lebanon that I recall.

[> [> [> Rock and roll? -- Jay, 20:59:46 09/17/04 Fri

Vickie, baby, SRV is all about the blues. Okay, rhythm and blues. Alright, alright, there are undeniable rock influences. But the work of the best guitar player since Jimi Hendrix being boiled down to "a rock and roll song". Well, it doesn't begin to cover it.

Will you publish my findings?

[> [> [> [> Re: Rock and roll? -- Vickie, 08:54:36 09/18/04 Sat

I won't quibble with your musical erudition. My point was only that it was a lyric, and not simple poetry.

I think you've already published, Jay.

Hellgods, Old Ones -- Alistair, 11:24:27 09/15/04 Wed

I was thinking about the distinction between the being which Glory was and the being which Illyria was.

Glory called itself a hellgod, one of three beings who ruled over an entire dimension. In its mortal form, Glory moved very quickly, and was very strong. But, it was also capable of being hurt, bleeding, and expressed no supernatural powers outside strength.

Illyria said of itself, "I lived seven lives at once, I was power and the ecstacy of death, I was god to a god" and "I am the god king of the Promordium, shaper of things!" "I was the immaculate embodiement of wor [ship? perhaps] Illyria was a being of such transcendent power that it traveled over all dimensions and could control the flow of time as it willed. It was feared and loved, and worshipped for a long long time, and it had a huge army loyal to it in every respect.

Glorificus and Illyria probably come from the same source, the malevolent among the power who seized the Earth and other dimensions. Glorificus ruled over another world, while Illyria ruled over Primordium, and the fact that it was god king means that it ruled Primordium and it was Primordium. It was god to the Old Ones who lived there. Illyria also describes having visited worlds of torment and unspeakable beauty. Glorificus ruled a world of torment, something apart from primordium. The way that Illyria describes its world is not as a hell of fire and brimstone, but as its home and kingdom, where good and evil were not known, and words such as betrayal were neautral like water or breeze. For a being considered evil, Illyria is self possessed and sees the humans as ants and roaches (insignificant, and unworthy ofbeing alive as they are not eternal). Glory seems to share that with Illyria, she saw the mortals as pests and the wortld of man unfathomable. While the mixed demons and the wolf ram and hart seem to enjoy evil, and suffering, or promote it, Illyria and Glory were followers of the old one school of "to never die and to conquer all".

Glory is to its world as Illyria was to Primordium.

And about the demon god concept (which never occured on the series) but I am assuming that it means Sobek and the like... In the buffy verse these probably refer to Old Ones like Illyria (the transcendent ones among them with incredible god powers). These beings were great developers of certain fields of power and so their worship extended past their exile into other worlds or imprisonment within the deeper well.

Replies:

[> Re: Hellgods, Old Ones -- skpe, 16:34:21 09/15/04 Wed

Where do you see Jasmine and the PTB's in that continuum?

[> Re: Hellgods, Old Ones -- Corwin of Amber, 19:39:47 09/15/04 Wed

Glory and Ilyria were both limited (very much so!) by the physical from they stole/were forced to take on this mortal plane.

I picture both Glorificus and Ilyria as basically omnipotent - in their own time and place. Glorificus had to interact with two other hellgods and was exiled to our realm along with her "brother" Ben. (Did we ever find out Ben's real name?) Ilyria had to occupy a mortal "shell". In both cases, it placed severe limitations on them.

An interesting question is when - when did Ilyria go into Lovecraftian hibernation, and when was Glorificus exiled?

[> [> Re: Hellgods, Old Ones -- Rook, 19:47:09 09/15/04 Wed

>>Did we ever find out Ben's real name?

It was Ben:

GREGOR: Such was her power. They feared she would attempt to sieze their dimension for herself, and decided to strike first. A battle erupted. In the end they stood victorious over the Beast. She was cast out, banished to this lower plane of existence. Forced to live and eventually die, trapped within the body of mortal. A newborn male, created as her prison. That is the beast's only weakness.

Ben was specifically created to house Glory, not a being that existed with its own unique identity before Glory was cast out of her dimension.

[> [> [> Re: Hellgods, Old Ones -- Corwin of Amber, 21:57:45 09/15/04 Wed

Ok. I've been laboring under a big misunderstanding of Buffy S5, in that case. So how did Glory always end up in female form? I understand, they were sharing one body...but why waste the energy to change shape? Why not just "possess" Ben's body, as it was.

For that matter, why create a body to house her at all? Why not just eliminate her? (From the other hellgods pov.)

I had assumed that Ben was another hellgod, and was also exiled. Well, now i have to buy S5 and rewatch. :)

[> [> [> [> Re: Hellgods, Old Ones -- Rook, 04:07:31 09/16/04 Thu

Well, I'd imagine that the reasons she'd change physical form would be: A) Her big ego and B) Ben's form was mortal and therefore vulnerable, whereas her form was pretty much invulnerable and super strong. Think of it like Bruce Banner/The Hulk, Jekyll/Hyde, Larry Talbot/The Wolf Man, etc.

As far as why they did it, again I'd imagine because she was invulnerable and immortal, so they couldn't just kill her outright.

Now, why they didn't just kill the baby themselves once they'd stuffed her essence inside it...well, that would have made for a pretty boring season 5 I guess :)

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Hellgods, Old Ones -- Alistair, 13:04:03 09/16/04 Thu

I believe that Jasmine and the PTB's fit into the hierarchy as the ancestors of Illyria and Glorificus. The Old Ones descended from the powerful ones who were forged in the inferno of creation. Some became malevolent (a very open definition) and others chose not to remain in the earthly plane.

What makes Illyria different from Glory is that it was a being with a physical form (the giant tentacled being) whose dwelling was ultimately Primordium. Glory ruled another dimen sion altogether and perhaps had a Old One tentacled form as well, or maybe not. I am assuming that the other two hellgods had no choice but to place the Beast into a mortal body, to place its essense into a being that would die- a living shell as it were. Glorificus however, being so powerful, could not be contained and chose to manifest. Why it manifested as a female in uncertain. The Old Ones were probably not sexual organisms and did not distinct themselves by male and female, but Knox's love of its god made him choose a female to house it, and perhaps the adoration of Glorificus' worshipers allows it to manifest as a female.

In terms of a timeline... what probably happened based on the evidence presented by the series combined.

-The FIrst evil always has been and will be.
- The Earth forms with the powers that be.
- Malevolence and destruction spreads across the Earth as the powers fights amongst themselves.
-The dark ones among them remain and conquer other worlds
-After eons of reproduction and new old ones arising, social structures begin to form
- Around the time of Illyria's youth, millions of years ago, the vampire already exists
-Illyria rules over Primordium as god-king
- The wolf ram and hart begin coming up in the world
-Illyria is murdered by its adversaries and placed in the deeper well, which has been used to store all old ones whose essense cannot be destroyed or dispelled
- The demons leave for some reason to other worlds
- The last pure demon is killed in North America, on the hellmouth, with the Scythe of the Slayer
- Glorificus wars with its two fellow hellgods
- 1976- Ben is born to house Glorificus after it is defeated
- 2004 Illyria returns to find its temple destroyed
The wolf ram and hart lose their circle of the black thorn and attack Angel and team

[> [> [> [> [> [> Something I haven't seen mentioned too much is what Glory said in "Blood Ties" -- Finn Mac Cool, 13:37:00 09/16/04 Thu

When Dawn asks if the Key must be pretty old, Glory responds:

"Well, not as old as me, but yeah, just this side of forever."

If the Key has only been around for a little less than forever, and Glory's older than it, might Glory not have literally been around forever?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Something I haven't seen mentioned too much is what Glory said in "Blood Ties" -- Alistair, 14:34:45 09/16/04 Thu

it existed since before recorded history. Illyria mentions such pompous things as well. Since they are eternal, they assume that all eternity is their lifetime, but something must have come before- like the powers and the first evil.

[> [> [> [> Hellgods and capital punishment -- Cleanthes, 13:35:54 09/16/04 Thu

For that matter, why create a body to house her at all? Why not just eliminate her? (From the other hellgods pov.)

It stands to reason that hellgods, being hellgods, are against capital punishment for themselves.

I figure they didn't eliminate Glory because they didn't have the strength of conviction that Giles had.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Hellgods and capital punishment -- Alistair, 14:33:03 09/16/04 Thu

It must hold true for the Old Ones that once they are at a god like power level, they cannot be destroyed. Their essence can never be destroyed, unless housed in a mortal. Ben's soul merged with Glory's essence, which allowed his death to be her death as well. This is the same in Illyria's case, it could not be destroyed, and the Old Ones didn't die like the humans. "The greater ones among them were interred, for death was not always their end."- Drogin. SOmetimes they died, but for the powerful ones it was not the case, they needed to be interred in some way. The Beast was so powerful and malevolent that the other hellgods feared it, and were appaled at its doings. If they could kill it, they would.

[> [> [> [> What could be more painful for a god than to live and die as human? -- BrianWilly, 03:04:07 09/17/04 Fri

Glory said it herself:
"You know, when you think about it, I'm the victim here. First off, I don't even want to be here. And I'm not talking about this room or this city or this state or this planet. I'm talking about the whole mortal coil now, you know? It's disgusting! The food...the clothes...the people. I could crap a better existence than this!"

I suspect that being a human after having been a god is similar to being on earth after having been in heaven: by comparison, everything is hell. Like Illyria, Glorificus had endless power...now, she's just another speck in the world. And we know that Glory's two co-tyrants were hellgods as much as she was...it's very possible that they cooked up this existence for her to spite her as much as they needed a way to get rid of her.

Both Glory and the Key are unutterably old, but we know that the war between Glory and the other hellgods did not happen until recently...twenty-some years at the most. Obviously, if Ben is her prison and Ben is twentysomething, Glory's imprisonment can't be longer than twentysomething years.

Now, even though the Old Ones are beyond gender, I'm think that gods like Glory do have a gender. Gregor the chief Renaissance Fair captain said that they've only "seen a glimpse of the true Beast," meaning the Glory's true form is at least superficially similar to this one.
We've seen Buffyverse sorcerers and wiccans make supplication to gods and goddesses, like Janus and Hecate, as if they do have genders. If the hellgods like Glory are anything like other gods of mythology and tradition, clearly they have genders as well.

[> [> [> [> [> Ben (Spoilers for Buffy S5) -- Meritaten, 13:43:04 09/20/04 Mon

Do we know if Ben aged as a normal human?

I seem to remember something about him having called down that alien to "clean-up" all of the people that Glory had made insane. Hadn't that been happening for a long time, like on the order of centuries? I'm thinking there was a reference to periodic meteors (in which alien creature was housed) that had been occurring for some time.

Maybe I'm wrong, I haven't watched S5 for a while.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Ben (Spoilers for Buffy S5) -- q 3, 18:50:09 09/20/04 Mon

I assumed that it was just a demon that had appeared in the past, either on its own or at the summons of someone other than Ben.

[> Re: Hellgods, Old Ones -- Supafnk, 18:21:50 09/17/04 Fri

I know that Glory and Ilyria are two different scenarios but they both share the same aspect of a God like creature being forced into a human shell. But can anyone explain how Glory/Ben managed to go twenty odd years while maintaing a vast level of Glorys power where as Ilyria was inside Fred's body for like a month and had to be powered down before she went Nova.
I would say that although both are pretty far beyond any of the other buffyverse charectors in terms of power, but Glory could still have beatin the holy hell out of powered down Ilyria.
My best guess is that Glory could maintain the higher level of power, but only for short bursts of time while as Ilyria had less power, but on a full time basis.
Does anyone have anything to add to that idea?

~ D

[> [> Re: Hellgods, Old Ones -- Alistair, 22:12:16 09/17/04 Fri

I think that when the hellgods created a vessel for Glory in the form of a human, the vessel existed only to house the Beast and not of its own accord (which was Ben's problem) eventually, Ben began to merge with Glory and they became the same entity. This is because they were one and the same to a certain extent. Illyria never imagined its ressurection in a mortal child. Its power was severely limited in the first place, and it could not be contained. They said similar things about Glory, that her true power could never be fully contained. Illyria was so limited because it was still living in the world of the Old Ones, imagining itself as a majestic creature of a great height. Glory had adapted to the human body and its clear that she had been using it to get what she wanted. It would have been interesting to explore more in Season 5 what Glory was like when Ben was a child, if she was a child as well.

[> [> Re: Hellgods, Old Ones -- Darkest Magics, 06:14:40 09/20/04 Mon

I would imagine the key lies in the circumstances of their mortal incarnations.

Glory was intentionally placed within the confines of a mortal vessel as punishment and exile. Ben was the means by which Glory would serve her sentence as an impotent being compared to her former true self. It should be assumed that Glory was never meant to be able to lead a double-life with Ben. They should never have had this hellmouth version of schizophrenia; Ben should have lived out his life as any human and when he died, Glory's essence would have been extinguished. The other hell gods had created Ben, a human vessel, for the specific purpose of imprisoning Glorificus, but despite their efforts the entirety of her essence could not be quelled. Her power was so great even in this debilitated state that she was able to break free from Ben's persona for moments.

On the flip-side, Illyria's possession or, as Wesley puts it, infection, was completely accidental. Illyria was not placed in a human body that was to serve as her prison and limit her power. Illyria's essence simply sought the first physical tether it could find. Furthermore, Illyria's very essence transformed Fred's physical body into something very much inhuman. I suspect it's mostly the latter which afforded Illyria a much greater display of preternatural and supernatural abilities (i.e., manipulation of the space-time continuum, unparalleled strength, unparalleled speed, talking to plants, etc). Fred's body was transformed and her soul/essence was consumed (I suspect) simply to contain Illyria's essence, an essence which for all intents and purposes was omnipresent and omnipotent.

Just what I figure. Though I am not sure I agree with the assessment that Glorificus and Illyria were equally as powerful back in their "golden days". Glorificus was described as a hellgod who shared her dimension with two other hellgods until her power and thirst for such became too great and the other gods began to fear her, thus the war which led to her expulsion.

Illyria was a singular ruler of Primordium. Such a fact alone gives Illyria more merit, but furthermore, she describes herself as existing at various time periods within various locations of various dimensions and realities--all simultaneously. She was, for lack of a better word, omnipresent, or at least just shy thereof. Glory was never described as existing in such a way. Sure, both of them are older than the ooze from which mankind was born, but Illyria's power severely overshadowed Glorificus'.

That is until they shot Illyria with the Mutari Generator after which point, I'm sure Glory would have handed Illyria her own rear. But I would have liked to see Glory beat the crap out of Hamilton and Adam.

What do you say? Sunnydale Big-Bad Deathmatch?!

[> [> [> Re: Hellgods, Old Ones -- Alistair, 08:04:36 09/21/04 Tue

All true. Illyria appears to have been a far more omnipresent organism, with knowledge of the space time continuum, which may imply that it not only could slow time or speed it up, but perhaps move through different time periods at will, as well as dimensions. Glorificus' power was probably great in its own world, but Illyria was known across the dimensions, as god-king.

Duh Kana! part 2 *spoilers Ats season 5* -- Kana, 03:01:43 09/16/04 Thu

In the credits of Smile Time it shows Famkin, the puppet master and 'Smile Time Show creator, was played by Daivd Fury. Is this the same David Fury who is one of the directors on the show.

This has probably been noted along time ago but I've only just seen season 5 of Angel and tried to avoid the spoilers.

Replies:

[> Re: Duh Kana! part 2 *spoilers Ats season 5* -- Rook, 04:12:59 09/16/04 Thu

Yes it's him. He also appeared in Reprise, and on Buffy in OMWF as the Mustard Stain Guy.

The Buffy's! -- Pony, 06:52:12 09/17/04 Fri

Salon.com in their infinite wisdom and ongoing justification of my premium membership has created an award for the show most unfairly overlooked by the Emmy's - and they've named the award the Buffy.

Their pick this year is The Wire which I haven't seen but have heard many good things about. I would have thought a mention of Angel would have been nice, but it still gave me a happy squee this morning.

http://www.salon.com/ent/feature/2004/09/17/the_buffy/index.html

Replies:

[> Awesome idea! -- Briar Rose, 19:26:11 09/17/04 Fri

And now, a message from Joss Whedon... -- cjl (cutting and pasting from the Serenity weblog), 14:31:35 09/17/04 Fri

Well, sports fans, it's official. The movie is shot. Done. And I couldn't be happier to be through with it. No more of that exciting, vibrant set, that warm camaraderie, that creative stimulus, free donuts... Excuse me. I have something in my eye... free donuts...

Oh, there's things I'll miss. But there's definitely things I WON'T miss.

In no particular order:

1) Fillion. People who are prettier than me are not supposed to be funnier than me. I think it's a guild thing. And that whole 'gracious and professional' thing got old on day ONE, you know what I mean?

2) Cinematographer Jack Green. This guy lights stuff ALL THE TIME. Seriously, like eighty-three percent of the shots had light in them. He totally didn't get my "Just Like Radio" concept for the film.

3) The incessant meddling of the studio: where was it? We waited and waited, what, are they all too busy and important to take the time to ruin my little film? This is Hollywood, people. Learn our ways and customs while you're here. Sheesh.

Just a taste of the Hell I've been through. And being surrounded by beautiful women, and, let's face it, beautiful men, all of whom get along, work hard and play their characters with such ease and nuance it's clear they were born for the roles -- who needs that?

But no matter how much I suffer for my art, it's worth it. 'Cause come April 22nd I think we'll be bringing you an exciting film that's a powerful statement about the right to be free. Which is not as cool as my original statement about the right to tasty garlic mussels in a cilantro broth, but the freedom thing's okay too. The editing started this week, and after just a first cut I can safely say this will be the greatest film since whatever film comes out right before it. And I'm not backing down from that.

Thanks for your support. And I mean that more literally than people usually do -- Coming back from the Chicago Con and telling people there was a Serenity booth put up and run entirely by fans... you should have seen their faces. Hell, you should have seen mine. But not too close. And not before, like, 10:00 -- maybe 11:00 a.m. And maybe sort of from the side. The back-ish part of the side. You should have seen my hair.

Be well. Good things are coming.

Cilantro!

-joss.

Replies:

[> Re: And now, a message from Joss Whedon... -- CW, 15:11:01 09/17/04 Fri

this will be the greatest film since whatever film comes out right before it. And I'm not backing down from that.

Now that's the kind of quality we're expecting from a Josh film. I'm sure he'll keep that promise!

And I'm pretty sure, generous guy that he is, he at least bought some of those donuts!

[> mmmmmmmmmm....donuts.... -- OnM, 20:17:23 09/17/04 Fri

April 22nd, huh?

[> [> Partay!?! -- Vickie, 22:11:56 09/18/04 Sat

I think we should all do the FIRST WEEKEND thing and front-load this film!

I would be pleased to organize the SF Bay Area viewing, if folks are interested. Seven months should give us time to do it up right!

[> [> [> absolutely! -- anom, 08:54:43 09/19/04 Sun

We've definitely got enough people in the NY area to pull together for the opening weekend. Maybe make it a regional meet? Let's hear from you folks in points north!

Well, maybe closer to the actual date. Just wanted to get it out there for now.

[> [> [> [> Re: absolutely! -- lcolford, 20:10:37 09/26/04 Sun

A huge confab of Browncoat/Firefly fans plan to invade LA for the premiere (no def date yet, but usually a week or so prior to opening date) to cheer Joss and his crew on the red carpet.
Plans for other celebrations around town being discussed on all FF boards. But most are hoping to pack a theatre and retire someplace to discuss Joss' long awaited "Serenity."

Totally Off Topic (Sorry!) -- BuffyObsessed, 16:12:38 09/17/04 Fri

I know this is way off topic but I just had to ask this anyways. I just got contacts and I am having trouble putting them on and taking them out. Any tips? Also, is there anything else I should know?

Replies:

[> Re: Totally Off Topic (Sorry!) -- Rook, 17:06:31 09/17/04 Fri

This may help: http://www.english.optifree.de/article1734_994.html

[> Re: Totally Off Topic (Sorry!) -- Kenny, 17:17:38 09/17/04 Fri

Is it a problem with physically getting them in, or is the psychological problem of touching your eyes? If the latter, just practice touching your eyes with your finger so you get used to the idea of it. DISCLAIMER: Make sure you wash your hands before. You may also want to wear disposable gloves like opticians and other health professionals wear. This is what my old optometrist would recommend to people who had trouble getting used to contacts.

[> [> Re: Totally Off Topic (Sorry!) -- aka Ms K, 23:33:19 09/17/04 Fri

I never liked the "practice touching your eye" advice since I always found that it hurt. When I touch my contact sitting on my eye it feels odd but painless.

I had problems getting my contacts in at first. Then I got a test pair of colored contacts (just to see if they looked good). They were really easy to put in and take out because I could see them and they were a bit thicker. After working with those for a couple of weeks my regular invisible ones were pretty easy.

[> [> Re: Totally Off Topic (Sorry!) -- LeeAnn, 02:18:58 09/18/04 Sat

Is it a problem with physically getting them in, or is the psychological problem of touching your eyes?

I could NEVER put my contacts directly on my pupils. I would put the contact on the lower outside of the white of my eye (just off center, not really in the corner) then squinch my eye closed and move the contact to my pupil by pushing up on it through my lower eyelid. I got where I could do it in a second and if your contacts fit properly they WANT to move over to your pupil and sort of flow there when you push them in that direction through your eyelids.

[> [> Re: Totally Off Topic (Sorry!) -- BuffyObsessed, 08:34:04 09/18/04 Sat

I don't really have a problem touching my eye, my eye doctor had me practice doing that, but I had trouble physically putting them in. I also mainly have a problem taking them out because I can't seem to pinch them enough to take the contact out.

[> [> [> Re: Totally Off Topic (Sorry!) -- nibblet, 01:17:52 09/26/04 Sun

I don't really have a problem touching my eye, my eye doctor had me practice doing that, but I had trouble physically putting them in. I also mainly have a problem taking them out because I can't seem to pinch them enough to take the contact out.

I also had this problem getitng them out, so I've developed a technique where I kinda squish it to the corner of my eye till it folds/pops up.

I guess there's no real best technique on how to get them out/ put them in, it's all a matter of practice and learning what works best for you/ what you're most comfortable with etc. I have quite a few friend who regularly wear contacts and we have had a few interesting discussions on how to manage them, and we all seem to do it differently.

[> Re: Totally Off Topic (Sorry!) -- BuffyObsessed, 13:36:25 09/18/04 Sat

Yay! Took me under 30 minutes to put them in. I also got one contact out by myself (the other was with my sister's help)! It really does get easier with practice. Also, do you think it is okay to wear them for 8 hours 3 days after i got my contacts. I am going to be in a environment wear i can't easily take them out and i won't have my glasses to wear aferwards (im getting them fixed).

How would Spike have reacted to a souled Harmony -- Ray, 22:35:27 09/17/04 Fri

Harmony with or without a soul is pretty much the same. But I wonder if Spike would've had more respect for her in year 5 if he knew he could hurt her.

Replies:

[> Re: How would Spike have reacted to a souled Harmony -- Dlgood, 23:57:48 09/17/04 Fri

I don't think he would have cared about whether or not Harmony had a soul, except insofar as she might be another possibile candidate for the Shanshu.

I wonder if Spike would've had more respect for her in year 5 if he knew he could hurt her.

He hurt her plenty when they were involved, and again in S5, and he didn't particularly respect her. For the most part, he respects people who can hurt him, and with or without a soul, Harmony can't do that.

[> [> But I think souled Spike saw her as just a vampire and not someone worth respect -- Ray, 00:26:53 09/18/04 Sat

[> [> [> Re: But I think souled Spike saw her as just a vampire and not someone worth respect -- Dlgood, 09:18:00 09/18/04 Sat

I think it's the reverse... that Spike saw her as someone not worth respecting, when he noticed her at all. That she's a vampire isn't particularly relevant to him.

What would make Spike even care that much about Harmony?

[> [> I think it was more that he saw her as an annoying ditz -- Finn Mac Cool, 09:17:57 09/18/04 Sat

[> Should it have mattered? -- Earl Allison, 14:33:46 09/19/04 Sun

Given that Spike, like Angel, was on the "other side" of the equation come S5 of AtS, being a souled vampire, he should have had more respect for her.

Spike whined about how Buffy treated him in BtVS S7 (using him and supposedly stringing him along), and then basically turns around and treats Harmony the same way come AtS S5.

Given that Spike had that pseudo-relationship with Buffy before being ensouled, he has a unique viewpoint even Angel didn't have. He knew what it was like to be treated poorly, and that it bothered him, soul or not. With that in mind, he should have treated Harmony with SOME respect. Instead, he grabbed her for a quickie, when he wasn't busy ignoring or insulting her -- although I do think he did something nice in "Harm's Way," but it really falls short given what he complained about from Buffy ...

But Spike and consistency, not so mucn with the going together.

Take it and run.

[> [> Should clarify, in S7 talking about S6... sorry. -- Earl Allison, 14:35:08 09/19/04 Sun

[> [> Um, Spike only complained in one episode that I recall -- Finn Mac Cool, 19:17:34 09/19/04 Sun

OK, maybe you could count "Beneath You", but I'm not sure, since it's hard to remember such meandering rants. Other than that, "Never Leave Me" is the only episode where I recall Spike bringing up how Buffy treated him.

As for his treatment of Harmony, I think it's important to point out that, soul or no soul, Spike still remains something of a jerk. I'd find it out of character if Spike treated someone shallow and annoying like Harmony with much respect at all.

[> [> [> Re: Um, Spike only complained in one episode that I recall -- Dlgood, 21:18:13 09/19/04 Sun

Other than that, "Never Leave Me" is the only episode where I recall Spike bringing up how Buffy treated him.

Obviously, he complained quite frequently in S6. In hindsight, he never does seem to see the parallels between how he felt Buffy treated him, and how he treated Harmony.

I'd find it out of character if Spike treated someone shallow and annoying like Harmony with much respect at all.

But that's only part of the point. The other part is, that if he's to have complained about how Buffy treated him, and he has any claim to maturity, then he'd need to have some awareness that how he treated Harmony doesn't speak particularly well of him. Regardless of whether she's shallow and annoying. Such things being relative, it would mean people would be justified in treating him that way if they saw him as shallow or annoying -- an idea Spike would naturally reject.

In the end, though, Spike pretty much sees Harmony as kleenex. The type of person to be used and thrown away. And I don' think he's particularly bothered by that.

[> [> [> [> We were talking about souled Spike, though, so Season 6 doesn't count -- Finn Mac Cool, 08:23:53 09/20/04 Mon

Also, Harmony kind of has an odd place in the Buffyverse: we had people who were originally shallow teen queens (Buffy and Cordelia) show how much depth they really had and how they could grow, and plenty of other characters who showed they could be more than they originally seemed; the problem with Harmony is that she's the other side of the coin; she's the person who, deep down, really is just as shallow and vapid as she appears. Couple that with soullessness, and no one really feels the need to consider her feelings much since they're mainly focused around what she's wearing, how to get a new boyfriend, and getting everyone to love and worship her.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: We were talking about souled Spike, though, so Season 6 doesn't count -- Dlgood, 09:47:49 09/20/04 Mon

the problem with Harmony is that she's the other side of the coin; she's the person who, deep down, really is just as shallow and vapid as she appears. Couple that with soullessness, and no one really feels the need to consider her feelings much since they're mainly focused around what she's wearing, how to get a new boyfriend, and getting everyone to love and worship her.

Spike doesn't dissmiss Harmony because she's shallow. That's incidental and irrelevant. Spike pretty much thinks most people are shallow and inherently unworthy of attention - and that things don't matter just because they're important to them. He dismisses Harmony because he's Spike. And because to his mind, it's okay for him to treat people like kleenex. Unless he's in love with them, or unless the things they care about coincide with what's important to him.

Should one have discarded Spike's feelings because he was soulless, and his feelings mostly focused on getting Buffy to love him? Spike didn't think he was shallow, and felt he'd have done better if people had tried to help him more, even though he'd rejected their help. In S6, Spike didn't feel that they should have. And post-S6, it doesn't seem much has changed his opinion on that score.

Harmony and Spike aren't necessarily all that different. Harmony notes that trying to be and do good is hard, and that she might be better at it if she'd gotten help. Considering Spike was in a similar shape, one would think he ought to be a bit more sensitive to her, both with regard to their past relationship and her current situation.

When you go out of your way to demand people give you a chance to prove your own merit and depth, you look like a hypocrite and a jerk if you don't do so for others. If it's arrogant or elitist and so have you for the scoobs to not do so for Spike, than it's equally so for Spike to be dismissive of Harmony.

[> [> [> Spike was not complaining about Buffy in NLM -- Sophist, 09:36:41 09/20/04 Mon

He was explaining how his soul enabled him to realize the meaning of actions he hadn't understood without it:

BUFFY How did you do it? How'd you get your soul back?

SPIKE Saw a man about a girl. (sighs) I went to seek a legend out. Traveled to the other side of the world, made a deal with a demon.

BUFFY Just like that?

SPIKE No, not just like that. There was a price. There were trials, torture, pain and suffering... of sorts.

BUFFY Of sorts?

SPIKE Well, it's all relative, isn't it?

BUFFY Meaning?

SPIKE Meaning I have come to redefine the words pain and suffering since I fell in love with you.

BUFFY (sighs) How can you say that?

SPIKE Apparently, I just slaughtered half of Sunnydale, pet. I'm not really worried about being polite anymore.

BUFFY (nods) So, that's what this is about. (stands, crosses arms) You feeling sorry for yourself, Spike?

SPIKE I'm feeling honest with myself. You used me.

BUFFY Yes.

SPIKE You told me that, of course. I never understood it though. Not until now. You hated yourself, and you took it out on me.

BUFFY You figured that out just now?

SPIKE Soul's not all about moonbeams and pennywhistles, luv. It's about self-loathing. I get it. Had to travel 'round the world, but I understand you now. I understand the violence inside.

BUFFY Violence? William the Bloody now has insight into violence?

SPIKE Not the same. As bad as I was, as evil and as wretched as I was, I never truly hated myself back then. Not like I do now.

[> [> [> [> Season 7 grumble grumble -- Pony, 11:01:36 09/21/04 Tue

Sigh. Going off the topic of the thread, but I loved that dialogue. That whole episode felt like a start to a great conversation heavy with honesty and the plumbing of depths - but we only got half of it. I think the Buffy side was supposed to be in Touched but I don't think there was enough insight offered there.

NLM, which is a turning point for the season - the last episode before the Potentials arrive - ties in with what you have said before, Sophist, that the journey of s7 was Buffy understanding and becoming comfortable with herself. In NLM just as Buffy's at the point of reaching a critical point of understanding with the demon chained in her basement the Bringers come in shattering everything. All that then gets put aside and not spoken of again until nearly the end. It's excellent in conception, even if the execution makes me sigh my little season 7 sigh.

[> [> [> [> [> Seasonal lessons -- Sophist, 12:41:29 09/21/04 Tue

In NLM just as Buffy's at the point of reaching a critical point of understanding with the demon chained in her basement the Bringers come in shattering everything. All that then gets put aside and not spoken of again until nearly the end.

I think many of the seasons work that way. Remember that in S3 the B/F interaction reaches what appears to be a climax in Revelations and then is left hanging until Consequences (or Enemies, depending on how you see it).

In S4, the B/SG interaction sort of falls apart in The I in Team (after being shaky for some time), seemingly to return in Goodbye Iowa. Then we get the rest of the season to set up TYF/Primeval/Restless.

In S5 we experience concern for Joyce beginning with Shadow, believe that it is over, and then are hit with The Body.

S6 carries this trend to an extreme, with Buffy appearing to learn the seasonal lesson in every episode from at least Wrecked through NA, only to finally learn it in Grave.

Even in S2, the least similar season, you can see the same themes raised in H/LtM, S/I, and B1-2.

It appears that to JW the three most important aspects of learning to grow up are repetition, repetition, repetition.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Seasonal lessons -- Pony, 13:02:37 09/21/04 Tue

Ah yes, complications, the classic story-telling device for making sure things don't wrap too quickly!

The trick is always to make sure that the reasons that prevent a journey from reaching a too hasty resolution don't become maddening for the audience - for example Cordy's avoidance of Angel in early AtS s4 would seem to be completely inorganic and manipulative... until we find out her true motivations. I think Buffy's revelation in Grave lacked a certain oomph because as you say she'd been on some variation of that upward journey for a while - we weren't getting anything we didn't expect to get - just as I feel s7 didn't provide enough of a payoff to reward both the prolonging of the journey and the set-up (a set-up which I thought was amazing, for I am not entirely negative!).

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> I felt that way about S4. Upon rewatching, I have enjoyed it more. -- Sophist, 13:46:27 09/21/04 Tue

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Upon rewatching the AtS S4 DVD set, it has become my favorite AtS season, which it wasn't before. -- Rob, 12:06:53 09/24/04 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> i keep on hearing that. why do people tend to dislike AS4 at first? -- ghady, 13:47:26 09/24/04 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Originally I liked it quite a bit . . . -- Finn Mac Cool, 18:08:26 09/26/04 Sun

However, after I saw the whole thing and looked back on it, I realized how all the build up surrounding the Beast and Angelus was really pretty pointless in the end. If those things hadn't happened, I don't see that affecting the end of the story one bit.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Originally I liked it quite a bit . . . -- ghady, 04:29:04 09/27/04 Mon

my only problem with this season is that there wasn't enough explanation. sure, the LOGICAL point of the beast/rain of fire/blotting out the sun would be to make the world as hellish as possible so that Jasmine could come and "fix" it all. and the logical reason behind jasmine wanting to bring forth angelus would be to distract the FG from figuiring her out. but the thing is that the characters never explicitly SAID that.. that's my only complaint..

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Yes, they did... -- Rob, 09:10:39 09/27/04 Mon

From the script:

WOMAN: All these events unfolded that I might reenter this physical plain. I know there's been chaos.

WESLEY: All the events we've witnesses these past months, all the madness, it was birth pains.

WOMAN: But the storm has passed.

LORNE: And here comes the sun.

Rob

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Yes, they did... -- ghady, 06:50:33 10/01/04 Fri

yes, but was it explicitly stated that:

a) The Beast was used to wreak as much havoc as possible so jasmine would "fix" it?

b) The beast destroyed W&H so they wouldn't stop jasmine from being born?

c)jasmine intended on killing the beast herSELF after she was born?

d) cordelia encouraged the bringing forth of angelus in order to distract the FG from whatever she was doing?

sure, if u pay attention, you'll come up w/ these conclusions. but they were never actually STATED. u get?

And now for something different... -- DorianQ, 22:57:58 09/17/04 Fri

Who do you guys think had the hardest job on the show, acting-wise? I don't know if this has been discussed at length before, but as this is a discussion forum, I thought it could be discussed. I'll start with:

Amy Acker in Shells and The Girl in Question;

David Boreanaz in Awakenings, Orpheus, Soul Purpose;

Nicholas Brendon in The Pack and Hell's Bells;

Charisma Carpenter in Season Four;

Emma Caulfield in Selfless;

Alexis Denisof in Lineage and Shells;

SMG in Who Are You, More With Feeling, and Normal Again;

Alyson Hannigan in Villains and the Killer in Me,

Vincent Kartheiser from Inside Out to Home;

James Marsters in Fool For Love, Lies my Parents told me, and Destiny;

Michelle Trachtenberg in The Body and Bargaining;

This isn't a complete list; for instance, ASH is one of, if not the, best actor on the show, but not much of his work was very challenging as he was usually exposition guy. Also, the acting got much more difficult as the show went on and the writers became more ambitious and the actors refined their talent more, so there are fewer offerings from the earlier seasons than the later ones. Any additions? And which do you think was the toughest?

Replies:

[> Re: And now for something different... -- Rook, 04:36:52 09/18/04 Sat

Eliza Dushku in Who Are You? - Faith was always written/played more broadly than Buffy, giving SMG a little more to work with in terms of imitating her than Eliza had with Buffy.

ASH in A New Man - Comedy is harder than drama. It's especially hard when you're covered in 50 pounds of latex.

David Boreanaz in IOHEFY - It's hard to play cross gender, and I suspect it's harder for men than women.

Tom Lenk in Storyteller - Because playing a self-deluded buffoon AND making him funny, sympathetic and uncomfortable to watch all at the same time can't be easy.

Alexis Denisof in Sleep Tight - He was able to through the multiple layers of duplicity, keep track of all the lies, secrets, true and false motivations while still keeping the core of the character recognizable.

Also, you say:

>>but not much of his work was very challenging as he was
>>usually exposition guy

Delivering page after page of exposition and making the delivery seem fluid, interesting, and natural is challenging in the extreme. I give kudos to both ASH and Alexis, who had a similar function on Angel, for managing to get through all of the pages they had to deliver without going totally bonkers. Quite honestly, these two guys probably had the toughest jobs on either show, from week-to-week, just because of the amount of exposition necessary.

The big, noticable, dramatic moments aren't really the hardest things to do in acting. It's the subtle stuff, or the dry, boring-but-necessary stuff that presents a real challenge for the actors to make interesting and entertaining.

[> Re: And now for something different... -- Rich, 08:55:12 09/18/04 Sat

I would add : SMG ( & several others ) for "The Body"

[> Of course, there's always... -- Duell, 12:18:59 09/20/04 Mon

ASH in The Dark Age, Passion, I Only Have Eyes For You, Band Candy, Helpless, A New Man, The Yoko Factor, Flooded, and Lies My Parents Told Me.

Not to mention Alexis Denisof in Graduation Day, both parts, James Marsters in Seeing Red and Beneath You, Alyson Hannigan in Showtime, Seth Green in Phases and Fear Itself, and Michelle Trachtenberg in The Body.

What Happened to the Hellmouth Monsters? *SPOILERS* for s7 -- Angel Aficionado, 13:54:59 09/18/04 Sat

This may have been covered before but i couldn't find it in the archives or on the site so I'm sorry if it has but, does anyone have any theories on what happened to all the monsters and demons from the Hellmouth (like in "the Zeppo")
and where the Turok-Han have been this whole time?

One last, unrelated, thing. Did Chao-Ahn die (in "Chosen"), some say the girl that was drained by a Turok-han while Buffy was on the ground is her, but that got me thinking, wouldn't Kristy Wu have been credited? Shannon didn't have a line in the whole thing but Mary Wilcher got her name at the end.

Thankyou to anyone who can take the time to reply.
AA

Replies:

[> Re: What Happened to the Hellmouth Monsters? *SPOILERS* for s7 -- Alistair, 14:02:10 09/18/04 Sat

The hellmouth is not a portal into any specific dimension, it is more like a general point where demon worlds connect to Earth. The First may be responsible for allowing the turok han dimension to become the one connected to Earth through the hellmouth, but it was certainly not the world or place where the hellmouth demon resides and others like it.

[> a little silly but.... -- Rich, 19:44:23 09/18/04 Sat

Maybe the Turok-Han ate them ?

Tru Calling postponed to mid season -- Ames, 18:29:34 09/18/04 Sat

Various TV journals are reporting that Season 2 of Tru Calling will be postponed to an indefinite mid-season debut, and the number of episodes probably cut. And of course there's the suggestion that it may end up being cancelled.

That's too bad. After not getting off to a good start, Tru Calling improved around mid-season last year and was actually showing some promise. In midst of this season's wasteland of reality shows and tired formula repeats it was about the only show I looked forward to seeing. Network executives are beginning to resemble a bunch of lemmings following each other over a cliff (not that lemmings really do that, to be fair to the lemmings).

Replies:

[> Just read that it's been cancelled. -- Jane, 20:51:57 09/18/04 Sat

[> [> You gotta be kidding me . . . -- Finn Mac Cool, 21:48:19 09/18/04 Sat

It has an amazingly good season finale that sets up an interesting plot twist, is promised to return next fall, then, just as the Fall season begins, they pull the plug. I swear, however great FOX may be with creating comedies, it's like a death trap for dramas.

[> [> [> Agreed -- Sofdog, 09:49:02 09/20/04 Mon

This show had finally gotten it's act together and now Fox put it in limbo. By the time they bring it back I may not care how it turns out.

[> Here's the scoop on Tru Calling--which is, as Ames said, indefinitely postponed: -- cjl, 07:15:46 09/20/04 Mon

Parry Shen of the TC staff wrote into Delphi Forums:

"Today on set, I finally got to talk to the writers/producers - the word "cancelation" isn't really accurate. It just seems like there is no time slot for our show in the Fall, Spring or anywhere in the forseeable future. But production will halt after this current episode - for a total of 6. However, Fox has told the show to hold all the sets in storage (ie: not break them down) until further notice. There is word of possibly shopping it around to other networks like WB, but this is a strange time to shop around a show since everyone has their schedules in place. I think when "Buffy" got canned, it was still before the lineups were announced, hence it was able to be worked into UPN's schedule.

"The writer revealed a lot of the cool stuff our characters were supposed to go through the season's storyline -- man, if we could just get to 13 episodes, stuff could at least get tied up. And it sounded like Tru's friends were going to continue to play a bigger part throughout the show :( I can't reveal stuff because there's always that slight chance we can play it through if someday the 6 episodes do air and bring in strong ratings or the Season 1 DVD sells well -- who knows? It's all speculation.

"Anyway, the point is all of the elements stated above places the show in a weird limbo. It's not canceled officially but with precedence of similiar situations, it doesn't look good (hence the talk of cancelation). So there are the facts, formulate your own conclusions."

*******************

Why am I surprised that FUX has treated a genre drama in a beyond-atrocious manner? But this might be a new low: order six eps. Never air them. And "freeze" the production, effectively trapping the cast and crew in limbo. Come on! Either order and schedule the episodes (for January if not September), or cancel the gorram thing. Not too hard.

I've never been a big supporter of TC. Presuming S2 gets off the ground, as long as series creator Jon Feldman is in charge, it's never going to be as sophisticated and morally challenging as BtVS or Angel. It'll be pitched for a younger audience, and interesting moral complexities--i.e., what if Jack is right?--will be passed up for cookie-cutter standalones. (Jane E, wonderful as she is, is just won't be able to change that.)

But even though I don't particularly like the series, this is bush-league treatment of professionals. I feel bad for Eliza, Jane, Doris Egan, Zack G. and the rest of the Tru crew. Sad.

[> [> If that's the case... -- Vegeta, 08:23:10 09/20/04 Mon

Maybe we can see a "Faith the Vampire Slayer" show in our future!!! Since their is almost nothing to watch on TV anymore.

[> [> Re: Here's the scoop on Tru Calling--which is, as Ames said, indefinitely postponed: -- skeeve, 08:49:07 09/20/04 Mon

What kind of limbo is the cast in?
I'm not familiar with TV contracts, standard or otherwise.

Also, Jack being right is a possibility that hadn't occured to me and really hasn't yet.
It seemed to me that he was just thrown in there to have a human opponent,
drama without a human opponent being beyond the ability of the writers or the imagination of their boss.

The premise (without Jack), reminds me a lot of Early Edition.
In TC, our hero only has one or two problems to fix,
but has a lot less information.
In EE, Gary never seemed able to wrap his brain around the idea of getting help,
even after being provided a real good example.
In EE, the drama was usually how is he going to do it this time.
In TC, there was often the added issue of what it would cost her personally.

[> [> [> Give TC the benefit of the doubt -- Ames, 15:22:19 09/20/04 Mon

At first the writing wasn't up to snuff, but by mid-season last year they seemed to get some new writers, and I thought that they were really trying hard to add new plot elements and explore some of the more interesting possible ramifications. We're the last group that should be judgemental about a new show not being quite as polished as it should be yet, as long as their heart is in the right place.

I personally thought the setup of a conflict with with a human opponent who also knows the future was excellent (if a bit telegraphed), and I happen to like Jason Priestly in the role of Jack. I'm not too sure about that whole side issue with Tru's father, but I would give it a chance. After all, what else am I going to watch?

[> [> They're still shooting... -- dub ;o), 17:50:52 09/27/04 Mon

Just passed a location set on the way home from work this evening, so either they're still working on ep 6 or they've got some kind of a reprieve.

Wesley the Wise -- life04, 13:27:23 09/19/04 Sun

While reading some of the archived posts on this site, I came across this interesting message:

"And what about Wesley, eh? Even Wesley's personal saga has been "pushed to the sidelines"--partly to effectively dramatize his alienation from the rest of the AI crew, but the minimized presence of Wesley on AtS this season seems somewhat analogous to the disappearance of Giles on BtVS--a vanishing voice of wisdom and a much-needed guide. Only with Wesley, we also see the guide losing his own way."

Reading this passage reminded me of Fred's view on Wesley - especially in a scene from a late AtS Season 4 episode (I think it's "Shiny Happy People"). After seeing Jasmine in her true form, Fred had turned to Wesley, as if expecting him to be able to help her in dealing with Jasmine. Frankly, I found this odd. Until I realized that she may have harbored this illusion of him. I guess she saw him as some kind of wise man of the AI team. And I suspect that the author of the above post, had viewed Wesley in the same way. As the team's "wise guide".

Granted, no one can deny that Wesley was an intelligent man with great knowledge of the supernatural. But I have never viewed him as a "wise" man. Or a sensible one, at that. He seemed to have harbored too many illusions in regard to his friends and other acquaintances. Also, he had made one too many unwise decisions in the past. He has always struck me as smart. But never as wise. Frankly, I don't think the AI team really had someone of great wisdom to guide them. Perhaps that's why they never were able to truly develop . . . or mature as characters, despite their ages.

Replies:

[> Re: Wesley the Wise -- Haunt, 15:06:56 09/19/04 Sun

Hmm... I think wisdom, like intelligence, has many shades and variations. Everyone contains some form of wisdom or another, to a greater or lesser degree. Usually when someone calls someone else "unwise" I take it to mean that the commentator did not see their own brand of wisdom displayed. I think of wisdom as the amalgamation of intelligence, smarts (very different from intelligence) and experience. Everybody, even Wesley, has their own unique blend of all three of those elements.

Wesley displayed wisdom of some fashion many, many times over the course of the series. He also displayed an ability to make mistakes and errors in judgement. But each and every character on the series did both as well. Everyone on 'Angel' got a shot at being wise as well as being UNwise. It's sort of dismissive and limiting to say that Wesley was not wise... and I also think it's dismissive, and inaccurate to say that none of the characters ever truly developed or matured. :shrug:

Buffy & Angel Reviews? -- Duell, 16:48:40 09/20/04 Mon

I am a huge fan of review sites, and I was wondering if anyone knew of some sites where they did individual episode reviews of the Buffy and Angel Seasons? Any sites at all that I can check out would be appreciated.

Replies:

[> Re: Buffy & Angel Reviews? -- Antigone, 17:17:50 09/20/04 Mon

Not really a review site but whedonesque.com always posts the latest reviews for all of Joss' shows. Try searching the archives with the word "review." This is a fairly comprehensive/exhaustive resource for all articles on Joss' universe.

Also search the archives on salon.com under the name "Buffy". Stephanie Zacharek has done great reviews (IMO) of a few Buffy episodes (including OMWF).

Of course there is always TelevisionWithoutPity.com if you don't mind meaness/sarcasm for the sake of it. Can be funny though. Plus, while reading their reviews, you may find yourself screaming in utter indignation at the computer screen such phrases as "No, NO, you REALLY don't get it!" . What's not fun in that? ;-)

[> [> Re: Buffy & Angel Reviews? -- Haunt, 19:51:57 09/20/04 Mon

CityofAngel.com has episode and season reviews that are worth checking out. And my own home base www.bigbad.net has them as well...

[> Re: Buffy & Angel Reviews? -- Majin Gojira, 20:27:17 09/20/04 Mon

http://members.aol.com/LRL94/buffy.html

Excelent reviews and ratings by a pro film reviewer. One of my favorite review sites.

[> Re: Buffy & Angel Reviews? -- KdS, 13:25:00 09/21/04 Tue

Jenoff did a really good series of reviews for both BtVS and AtS. I don't always agree with him, but he's always thoughtprovoking.

Grr Aargh...The "Wonderfalls" DVD has been pushed back to January 18th... -- Rob, 08:15:44 09/21/04 Tue

According to http://www.savewonderfalls.com:

"The Wonderfalls DVD set will now be released on January 18 rather than December 7, due to competition on the original release date being 'too heavy.' This is bad news for everyone who wanted to give or receive the set as a Christmas gift, but hopefully it'll be good for sales in general. We're just disappointed we have to wait longer for the DVDs!"

Rob

Replies:

[> Re: Grr Aargh...The "Wonderfalls" DVD has been pushed back to January 18th... -- Ames, 10:37:34 09/21/04 Tue

Darn, that's a disappointment.

Their logic escapes me. The target customers for the Wonderfalls DVD set are the people who already know and like Wonderfalls. We are the ones who will buy it for ourselves and give it to others as a gift. We are most likely to do that at Christmas. After Christmas everybody will have less money and less time. Do they think a whole lot of people browsing the store in January will stop and think "Gee, that looks interesting, and I didn't get the DVDs I really wanted for Christmas..."?

It smells to me more like Wonderfalls has a low priority, and they don't want to take production capacity and shelf space away from the other mass-market junk they plan to foist on holiday buyers. Probably a few people's careers are tied to making sure Christmas sales are successful.

[> [> Actually, there is a lot of good stuff coming out the 7th... -- Rob, 12:15:01 09/21/04 Tue

The Lord of the Rings: Return of the King Extended Edition

The Ultimate Matrix Gift Set

Carnivale: The Complete First Season

24: The Complete Third Season

The Flintstones: The Complete Second Season

Top Cat: The Complete Series

Walt Disney Treasures: The Complete Pluto

Walt Disney Treasures: The Mickey Mouse Club

Walt Disney Treasures: Mickey Mouse in Black and White, Volume 2

Star Trek: TOS, Season 3

Star Trek: Voyager, Season 6

So I do understand what they mean when they said it was an overstuffed day. I myself want to buy almost everything on the list.

Rob

[> For Canadians with basic cable -- Pony, 10:40:12 09/21/04 Tue

Vision tv is going to be airing the series starting Oct. 4, including episodes that never originally aired. Let's hear it for Vision - they're not just about Touched By An Angel repeats anymore!

[> [> Re: For Canadians with basic cable -- Evan, 12:44:15 09/21/04 Tue

Ooooooh, this is great news!!

[> [> You're kidding! -- Ames, 14:01:52 09/21/04 Tue

Vision TV, the religious channel? How did they get talked into airing Wonderfalls? Isn't it all blasphemus and idolatrous and all that? I sent an email to Space (the Canadian SF channel that picked up Firefly and several other aborted series) suggesting that they should air it, but who would have expected Vision?

[> [> [> Go figure -- Pony, 20:58:03 09/21/04 Tue

I guess Vision supposes it could be God talking through the objects. And also they have a mandate to represent all religions so this could be to cover the plastic novelty-toy worshipping crowd.

[> [> Cool! must make a note of that now. Thanks Pony! -- Jane, 23:24:41 09/21/04 Tue

Glory's 'death' -- David, 11:34:02 09/21/04 Tue

Hi i was just reading the posts on Glory and Illyria and thought of something. In hole in the world, it's said Old ones don't always stay dead and since they are gods e.g. illyria, does that mean Glory can come back?

Also this has been bothering me for a while. In season 7 of buffy, there were loads of rumours glory was returning as herself even though the FE took her form so does anyone know how she was going to retur, was it ever answered?

Replies:

[> According to Joss, no, she can't. -- Rob, 12:38:59 09/21/04 Tue

From a tvguide.com interview, reprinted by Masq at http://www.atpobtvs.com/54.html#522:

TVGO: Does Ben's death mean Glory is dead too?
Whedon: Yeah, it does (Joss, as told to M. Ausiello, tvguide.com, May 24, 2001).

Glory wasn't an Old One. She was hellgod from a different dimension, with its own rules. Old Ones used to rule this world, and are not synonymous with "gods".

Rob

[> [> Re: According to Joss, no, she can't. -- Alistair, 15:32:32 09/21/04 Tue

Glory was housed in Ben for the specific purpose that once he dies, she dies. Glory was probably the equivalent of Illyria in its own world, but like Drogyn said, "The greater ones among them were interred, for death was not always their end." Sometime it was, but in the case of Illyria and others like it, beings with great power, it was not.

[> [> [> But anyone (or anything) can come back in the Buffyverse... -- Ames, 14:23:18 09/22/04 Wed

Like Darla - dusted as a vampire. What could be more permanent than that? But she came back.

In the case of Glory, choose your method:

a) Her essence returned to the Hell dimension from which it came when Ben died, where it remains available to be re-embodied

b) Her essence fled into another shell nearby when Ben died. Take your pick: Giles (do we really trust him any more?), Spike, Tara, Willow (why did she get all dark?), Dawn, Buffybot (doesn't her rambling remind you a little bit of Glory?), random stranger ...

c) Powerful spell reaches into the past and retrieves her at the moment of Ben's death (like Willow and Anya's time-warping necklace-retrieval spell that dredged up previously-dusted vampire Willow).

d) The Knights of Byzantium bring her back to find out if the Key is still active. Maybe Glory can't die as long as the Key still exists.

e) Glory's minions bring her back, maybe with the help of something they retrieved from the body while everyone else was occupied. What happened to them after the battle anyway? We never saw them all get killed.

etc etc

[> [> [> [> Re: But anyone (or anything) can come back in the Buffyverse...(Spoilers AtS S5) -- Rook, 18:48:33 09/22/04 Wed

Except Fred. I'm pretty surethe total destruction of the soul is the most permanent Buffyverse death there is.

[> [> [> [> [> If the W&H employed doctor who told them that is to be believed... -- Evan, 19:54:59 09/22/04 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> Re: But anyone (or anything) can come back in the Buffyverse...(Spoilers AtS S5) -- q 3, 20:20:19 09/22/04 Wed

I imagine the PTB could (assuming they didn't already do it), reverse time back to just before Illyria's rebirth, snatch up Fred's soul (maybe replace it with a dummy soul so as not to interfere with the Old One's return), and then send it on its merry way to whatever afterlife (or lack thereof) for which it was intended. Furthermore, I don't see why any other entity or group with some power to go through time (even Illyria, at least prior to Time Bomb) couldn't do the same. The only unresolvable obstacle that I can think of would be if her soul had been obliterated throughout history; however, the effects of that would have to have been very obvious--she essentially would never existed, or at least never would have had a soul.

[> [> [> [> [> [> I don't think Illyria could travel through time -- Finn Mac Cool, 21:00:56 09/22/04 Wed

She showed the ability to slow down time, yes, and was able to do some manipulation to open the gateway to where her followers once were. However I didn't see anything to indicate she could travel through time. Yes, her consciousness skipped around a lot in "Time Bomb", but she couldn't control that, and it only happened when her body was self-destructing anyway.

There are only three beings we can be reasonably certain can go back in time and/or change a past event: vengeance demons (although, if there are any limits to the scope of the wishes they grant, we don't know them), D'Hoffryn (at least if you believe Anya in "Dopplegangland"), and the Powers That Be (some claim the Oracles were the ones who turned back time in "I Will Always Remember You", but I think it's heavily implied the PTBs were behind it).

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I don't think Illyria could travel through time -- Alistair, 21:16:19 09/22/04 Wed

Well, Illyria's claim to have lived seven lives at once and its ability to travel through any and all dimensions, might mean that it was capable of moving through different times as well, however I doubt it was a power it was capable of using in its shell. It was weakened greatly, not just in size, but in strength as it would be prey to those it once knew in the form of Fred.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Travel through time -- Ames, 12:29:15 09/23/04 Thu

But in addition to those who can travel through time, Willow and Anya in Doppelgangland demonstrated that witches can do a spell to retrieve an object or person from the past, even if it no longer exists. Anya expected to retrieve her necklace, but in fact they retrieved vampire Willow, who had died several episodes earlier - and in an alternate reality.

And don't forget the Shadowmen. Did Buffy travel back in time through the portal to visit them, or did that place exist outside of time?

Current board | More September 2004