September 2003 posts
CWDP
won a HUGO award! -- pellenaka, 05:16:27 09/01/03 Mon
Link: http://www.torcon3.org/ballots/index.html
Best Short Form Dramatic Presentation
Buffy the Vampire Slayer, "Conversations With Dead People"
(20th Century Fox Television/Mutant Enemy Inc.)
Directed by Nick Marck; Teleplay by Jane Espenson & Drew Goddard
[> Woo hoo!! And well-deserved
it is. -- Rob, 06:45:03 09/01/03 Mon
[> just wondering--is anyone
from the board at torcon? -- anom, 08:41:45 09/01/03 Mon
We're hearing all about DragonCon, but do we have any posters
at the actual Worldcon?
Why the best
plan is no plan in "Chosen" -- MaeveRigan, 08:03:30
09/01/03 Mon
Came across this quote the other day, and it seemed to sum up
perfectly the no-plan-plan of the end of season seven:
"Miracles happen when you don't plan in advance. If you dot
all your i's and cross all your t's, then you will find no miracles."
--Satish Kumar, editor of Resurgence, magazine, speaking
at the American Spirit Conference, New York, May 2003.
Buffy and the Scoobies did have some plans, of course, and I suspect
they'd read the W&H Amulet file pretty thoroughly. But as has
been pointed out, the plans they have can't possibly cover all
the bases. They just have to "go be heroes." Of course
it's not realistic--it's fiction. And yet somehow it works out.
How? As the brilliant Tom Stoppard put it, "It's a mystery."
Now and then, very rarely, a mysterious miracle occurs in reality.
Otherwise, we have to be content with the fictional variety.
[> Re: Why the best plan
is no plan in "Chosen" -- Ames, 08:38:23 09/01/03
Mon
Also, First Evil - can pretty much go anywhere in disguise, overhear
any plan. What better plan than to confront it head-on? What's
it going to do about that?
What I did
over my labor day vacation -- Masquerade, 09:51:36 09/01/03
Mon
OK, actually, it's what I did over my summer vacation.
Four months and a couple dozen chocolate-covered oreos. No sweat.
My analysis of Home
[> Re: What I did over my
labor day vacation -- Yellow Bear, 10:08:19 09/01/03 Mon
Good work. You managed to disguise your own problems with text
very well and present an objective & informative analysis as always.
That's the reason why yours is my favorite ME site on the net.
[> [> Thanks -- Masq,
10:22:04 09/01/03 Mon
Episode critiques are a dime a dozen. Everybody has an opinion.
Who wants to read another one?
Especially since my opinion would involve some tedious spitting,
wailing and nashing of teeth, and regurgitating chocolate-covereed
oreos. ; )
[> Congrats, Masq! --
Scroll, 10:17:50 09/01/03 Mon
I know it wasn't easy for you to do this analysis, but yay on
you for a job wonderfully done! I especially appreciated the Unanswered
Question and the speculation on who Connor is now. Thanks for
all your hard work :)
[> Echoing the others
-- CW, 10:28:10 09/01/03 Mon
A fine piece of balanced analysis. Thanks so much for your efforts,
Masq.
[> whoooooo! worth the wait--mazel
tov! -- anom, 22:31:54 09/01/03 Mon
Great job, Masq! I like how you lay out how many questions this
ep raises. Hope you don't mind if I add a few more:
"The knife acts as a talisman, activating a spell...."
"Angel fights Connor to free the hostages, then pins him
down and uses an enchanted knife to give a new start to
his only son."
I thought that at 1st, too, but then I realized Angel had taken
a knife at random from a display case he smashed in the store,
implying it wasn't enchanted. It would've made more sense if he'd
brought the knife with him from W&H. From what we've seen
on both Buffy & Angel, objects need to be treated
to make them into talismans. So what was it that actually
triggered the spell? The stabbing of Connor itself?
"The man was going to leave his family."
Or had he already? After all, he didn't remember them. The woman
with the 17 cats remembered she had them (long enough to name
them after Jasmine, anyway), but who was feeding them while she
made her pilgrimage to the Hyperion? The Lakers disbanded to devote
more time to Jasmine...how many people abandoned more essential
(sorry, sports fans) jobs? How long would Jasmine's paradise have
lasted before its economy ground to a halt & people blissfully
starved?
"...an area of the building where Wolfram and Hart still
keep their corporate records."
Does this really make sense, when you think about it? It's probably
just a copy--maybe a mystical one--of the real records, kept in
some central interdimensional location. This could account for
the reappearance of Lilah's file in the folder after Wes burns
it. Hmm, & it also raises the possibility that the whole thing
was a setup for Wesley--how did Lilah find him there, anyway?
"All indications are that Angel killed Connor, thus fulfilling
the prophecy, "The father will kill the son".
Um...wasn't that the fake prophecy planted by Sahjhan (as
he reveals in Forgiving)? So why would it come true? And how will
the real one--that Angel's child will kill Sahjhan--come true
when Connor's living a whole other life?
(Interesting wording in the original prophecy: it says Sahjhan
will be killed by "the one sired by the vampire with
a soul." Double meaning much? Did Buffy kill all the
vamps souled Spike made under the influence of the First? I don't
think Angel has sired any vampires while souled...yeah, pretty
sure about that. Either way, it would be very strange to have
some unknown vampire show up out of nowhere & kill Sahjhan. I
think the questions above stand.)
[> [> Oh, this is conjuring
up interesting images -- KdS, 03:41:33 09/02/03 Tue
(Interesting wording in the original prophecy: it says Sahjhan
will be killed by "the one sired by the vampire with a soul."
Double meaning much? Did Buffy kill all the vamps souled Spike
made under the influence of the First? I don't think Angel has
sired any vampires while souled...yeah, pretty sure about that.
Either way, it would be very strange to have some unknown vampire
show up out of nowhere & kill Sahjhan. I think the questions above
stand.)
Because the idea of having souled Angel sire someone to stop them
from dying (and usually having them immediately souled, although
I read a very nasty fic once where he didn't manage to in time)
is a horrible cliche of Mary Sue fics. It'd be amusing to see
if ME could make what is usually a horrible idea work one more
time.
[> [> [> they've already
turned down that chance -- anom, 10:14:29 09/02/03 Tue
Angel refused to sire Darla after W&H brought her back as human.
Even when she couldn't be healed in The Trial, they didn't consider
it as an option. Of course, then it was imposed on her against
both their wills. That looks like a clear rejection of the possibility...unless
Spike doesn't feel the same way, but I think his experience w/his
mother rules it out for him, too.
[> [> The one sired by
the vampire with a soul... -- Masq, 06:54:58 09/02/03 Tue
"will grow to manhood and kill Sahjhan".
This seems to imply the siring comes first, the growing to manhood
second,and the killing third. If they make Spike kill Sahjhan,
it would be a massive retcon of the show.
Something doesn't have to be enchanted first to be a talisman.
It can just be an object used in a spell that the spell demands.
It seems W&H's magics demanded a knife or other weapon be
used to trigger the spell. Hence, talisman.
[> [> [> Or maybe
it just needed blood -- Finn Mac Cool, 07:38:19 09/02/03
Tue
And, no, I won't be reciting the oft quoted line from "The
Gift". But I do think it could apply in this case.
[> [> [> [> Probably
what it needed was physical death -- Masq, 09:24:31 09/02/03
Tue
Although I was loathe to say so when I wrote the paragraph. It's
now been amended.
PS Finn: I left a message for you in HonorH's LJ.
[> [> [> well, maybe
that could work w/the "arrested development" metaphor?
-- anom, 12:59:45 09/02/03 Tue
"If they make Spike kill Sahjhan, it would be a massive retcon
of the show."
See, getting the soul was the equivalent of growing to manhood.
The only catch is that his sire didn't have a soul. (Nobody out
there thinks I'm serious here, do they?)
Thanks for supplying the rest of the quote. I had closed the window
w/the transcript (courtesy of "Buffy vs Angel") when
I typed that part of the post, & it was late, & I didn't want
to go look at it again. It definitely supports what you say, which
is the same thing I concluded.
"Something doesn't have to be enchanted first to be a talisman."
But you do call it an "enchanted knife." And if the
spell requires use of a knife or other specified kind of
object (as distinct from a specific object), does that make the
specified object of that type that is used a talisman?
Has a definition ever been given on the show w/requirements for
what makes something a talisman?
[> [> [> [> I rewrote
it -- Masq, 14:16:21 09/02/03 Tue
It now says it could be the knife acting as a talisman,
or the spell could just require Connor's blood or his physical
death. This is left vague.
[> Brilliant -- KdS,
03:47:14 09/02/03 Tue
You deserve maximum kudos for managing to produce such a fair
analysis of an episode that you had such a strong reaction against.
I couldn't.
[> [> It's what I do
-- Masq, 06:58:25 09/02/03 Tue
And if it takes me four months to develop sufficient objectivity
(not to mention lots and lots of chocolate), then that's what
I do.
But thanks!
[> [> [> Dark chocolate
is good for your blood pressure. -- Diana, 07:39:47 09/02/03
Tue
Sorry the show raised it so much, but at least all that chocolate
can soothe the savage Masq.
[> Great work, Masq.
-- Arethusa, 08:12:52 09/02/03 Tue
I'm really curious now how having a new set of memories will change
Connor. The conversations regarding how personality changes or
doesn't change over time on the AaS board and the short scene
with Connor's new family make me wonder if Connor's basic personality
will stay the same, but his reactions to stimuli will change.
Is he still sardonic and impulsive? Or has he totally changed?
[> [> I think what we
saw was more Angel than Connor -- Diana, 08:47:38 09/02/03
Tue
Angel has this crappy past that keeps dogging him, but he has
learned a lot because of that. The Connor we saw looked to me
like Angel if he could keep all those lessons, but ditch the past.
It was a wiser Angel in the sense that he did appreciate things,
but a more carefree/innocent one.
[> [> I guess it depends
-- Masq, 09:36:51 09/02/03 Tue
It depends on how much our personality is encoded in the genes.
It depends on whether Connor still has his original set of genes.
Give how Angel-esque the original Connor was despite not growing
up with Angel (broody, brave, petulant, vain, a smidge of dorkiness,
etc), I'd say he has the Angel genes. Or he did. Maybe he still
does.
In a fan fic I was going to write until I realized it wouldn't
make me feel better, I imagined that the "new" Connor
has artistic talents (something the old Connor would have discovered
as well if he'd had the chance).
Only the new Connor channels them into making comic-book style
drawings rather than making broody obsessive sketches of certain
blondes. In the fic, his family is at a loss as to where this
talent came from, since no one had artistic abilities in their
family.
[> [> [> Ooooh, I
like that. -- Arethusa, 10:00:16 09/02/03 Tue
Perhaps he creates superhero comic books about unlikely heroes
such as vampires with a soul. Meanwhile, at school or visiting
in LA, Connor visits Thwack Comics, where a clerk tells Connor
about a real vampire that fights crime. Intrigued, Connor hunts
him down to learn the truth....
[> [> [> [> Oooh,
I like THAT! -- Masq, 10:19:30 09/02/03 Tue
Yes, in my unwritten fic, Connor was into superhero comics in
particular. Of course, in my unwritten fic, he still had his vampire-like
powers and no explanation for them (I think I fudged it with his
parents being religious and believing they were a gift from God).
I imagined that he connected to characters like Superman or Spiderman.
Something deep inside him that he doesn't know the origins of.
One could imagine him meeting Angel and actually idolizing him,
at least until he discovers what most vampires are really all
about. Then angsty conflict ensues!
As you can tell, I gave this fic a lot of thought. It kept me
in a happy dream land through most of May.
But in the end I had to wake up and accept the canon. Connor will
be whatever ME says he is. If they even bother to say.
[> We all knew you could
do it! -- ponygirl, 08:20:32 09/02/03 Tue
The summer and the season are truly over now. It's all so bittersweet,
much like the best chocalate. Mmm moral ambiguity so chewy...
[> [> Re: We all knew
you could do it! -- Arethusa, 10:10:27 09/02/03 Tue
Moral ambiguity-chocolates with chewy caramel centers. Longing-bittersweet
chocolate. Passion-those little chocolates filled with liquors.
Fear-espresso beans coated in chocolate. Suprise-Cadbury bars
filled with nuts and raisins. Maternal love-hot chocolate.
I think you've found a theme here-chocolates for every emotion!
[> [> [> So what are
a whole box of chocolate-dipped oreos? -- Masq, 10:25:07
09/02/03 Tue
'Cause I'm thinking they're "big-time anxiety".
[> [> [> [> Yin
Yang? -- ponygirl, 11:06:48 09/02/03 Tue
Regular oreos represent the classical balance between the dark
and the light. Chocolate dipped ones are obviously for those times
when the darkness seems to overwhelm your soul - Angel noir!
[> [> [> [> [>
Or Connor noir -- Masq, 11:37:02 09/02/03 Tue
Is that redundant?
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Re: Or Connor noir -- ponygirl, 12:06:33 09/02/03
Tue
Poor Connor. Towards the end he seemed like his life was that
big bag of crap chocolate that you know is going to make you break
out, is actually making you slightly nauseous and you aren't even
enjoying the taste of anymore, but you just keep eating. Perhaps
Home is the binge diet episode - that long dark night when you
eat all the bad stuff in the cupboard because when tomorrow dawns
it will be exercise, clean living and fruit platters.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Sounds like my experience of analyzing "Home"!
; ) -- Masq, 12:36:01 09/02/03 Tue
[> What a way to observe
Labor Day. -- deeva, 08:35:52 09/02/03 Tue
Can't wait to read it! And knowing how you feel about the ending,
many hugs, Masq.
a potentially
redundant comment on the potential slayers -- unnonymity,
12:23:08 09/01/03 Mon
This may have been discussed ad nauseum here, if so I apoligize,
but does anyone else agree that (if ever featured on Angel or
possible future Buffyverse projects) it would make more sense
to have the slayers gain their power at fifteen or sixteen, around
the time the girls would have actually been called (also around
the general age of all the younger potentials featured in the
final season). I don't know if this is when the girls were first
recognized as proto-slayers (Faith and Kendra had previous training,
how old this started with wasn't exactly clear; though I noticed
that none of the season 7 potentials seemed to)but it would be
more in keeping with the image of the slayer (and corresponding
coming of age metaphor) already established than having a bunch
of super powerful children and infants running around.
[> Kendra was sent at an
extremely young age -- Rook, 13:06:49 09/01/03 Mon
From WMLII
Buffy: Even family?
Kendra: My parents, dey sent me to my Watcher when
I was very young.
Buffy: How young?
Kendra: I don't remember dem, actually
[> Kennedy and Vi both mentioned
having Watchers. -- HonorH, 17:17:39 09/01/03 Mon
Kennedy also said something about knowing what to do with a crossbow
since she was eight, I believe. I've always thought the potentials
could be identified very early, but not actually called as Slayers
until after menarche.
[> Unidentified potentials?
-- Laura, 23:14:08 09/01/03 Mon
My understanding is that while a person can be identified as a
potential Slayer from birth, they can only be Called between the
early stages of puberty (like the girl baseball player in 'Chosen')
and about the age of twenty-five (considering Kennedy). This would
explain the age group of the Potentials.
As for the lack of Watcher-trained girls, I suspect that Caleb
and the Bringers found it easier to track them down because of
their links to the Council. This means many of the girls who were
not found earlier were unintentionally protected.
[> Don't forget the older
ones... -- Sofdog, 09:40:01 09/04/03 Thu
Calling all Potentials includes all the ones who passed the Calling
age. That should include grown women of all ages.
OT Hey you!
Get back to work! -- Cactus Watcher, 17:01:32 09/01/03
Mon
No, not all of you. ;o)
Dub goes back to work tomorrow after a longish hiatus. Best wishes,
and stay well, Wisewoman.
At work always try to keep in mind what Buffy would do, but try
not to slay anybody. Remember Spike's devotion, but try not to
bite anybody on the neck. Remember Angel's quest to redeem his
past mistakes, but don't turn evil. Remember Willow's compassion,
but try not to destroy the world... On second thought just keep
your mind on your work! ;o)
[> Aw, thanks CW! --
dub ;o), 18:05:47 09/01/03 Mon
As I just posted to my LiveJournal, I'm all ready and rarin' to
go except my lower lip has just swelled up like a balloon...what
the heck?
I swear, my body is seriously allergic to working. It will do
anything to try to prevent me earning a living, even exploding
my brain occasionally, LOL!
Well, it's not gonna win this time. I'm just gonna tell them all
I've had collagen injections.
;o)
[> [> awright! best wishes
for work & health, dub! -- anom, 22:45:25 09/01/03 Mon
Don't overdo it, take your time settling back in, & show 'em what
you got! And hey, if you give 'em a little more lip than usual,
isn't that right in character? @>) (but I hope it goes away
soon)
[> Now this biting thing.......
-- Rufus, 19:25:41 09/01/03 Mon
try not to bite anybody on the neck
I'm hoping this prohibition against biting extends only to Dub,
cause, gee life would be way less fun for me....;)
[> [> Only at work, Rufus
-- ponygirl, 08:26:08 09/02/03 Tue
Workplace biting is probably a union thing. And you do not want
to mess with the union.
Have fun, dub!
[> Re: OT Hey you! Get back
to work! -- Vickie, 19:43:37 09/01/03 Mon
You go, girl! Go save the world, and don't forget your beeping
thing.
Prophecy Girl:
Joss' wider truth revealed -- Diana, 18:27:09 09/01/03
Mon
I was hoping that more people would have things to say about "Prophecy
Girl." It is one of the most important episodes to the mythos
of the Buffyverse and though "Innocence" shows Joss
what he can really do, he started doing in with "Prophecy
Girl."
In my original post on the episode, hopefully I illustrated the
fractal nature of the show. This sort of repetition has a purpose.
As I said in that original thread, "They convince not by
means of the narrowly focused spotlight of the syllogism, but
by skirting, by repetition, by presenting a recurring view of
the same subject each time from a slightly different angle --
until suddenly the reader who has never been aware of a single,
conclusive moment of proof finds that he has unknowingly embraced
and taken into himself some wider truth."
What is this wider truth that is present not only in this particular
episode, but the series as a whole? Joss has stated the mission
statement of the show as being about this girl that has tremendous
power that no one knows about or respects. Is that the wider truth
that Joss is talking about? In the end the series was about power,
what it is and what it is for. How does this mesh with the story
about the girl with the funny name growing up? THAT to me is where
the wider truth that draws me to this series is.
Buffy has power. Nobody respects it. Joss could have very easily
deus ex machinaed people into respecting her. We could have gotten
a finale that was along the lines of "Awakening." That
isn't what he did. The crucial episode this season was "Empty
Places." On the big board in the writers room, this episode
was known as the Mutiny Episode. Much of the problems with the
writing in the middle of the season stem from the writers really
having to earn what happens, namely the Scoobies turning on Buffy.
Why was that so important?
Keep in mind the pattern that Joss uses. First, feelings are demonstrated.
Then those feelings are denied/run away from, typically by hiding
behind the situation. Next some sort of action is determined,
but that action is found out to be impractical for some reason.
There is some sort of conflict derived from Buffy being Slayer
and her immaturity is stated/causes more conflict. That's the
pattern. The truth that is revealed is shown in this pattern.
The show about growing up and the mission statement about respect
and power collide in that pattern.
The resolution to the conflict always involves Buffy growing up.
The wider truth is what is meant by this. What is growing up?
What does this have to do with power and respect? What is a hero?
What makes something heroic? These seemingly unrelated questions
make up the tree that Joss circles so well.
In "Prophecy Girl," we start with Xander wanting to
ask Buffy out. If she had said yes, would him saving her have
really meant as much? It was such a shining moment for Xander
because he was able to get over his own self-absorption and take
action to save Buffy. He found something greater than himself
worth fighting for, worth even dying for. He was risking his life,
as Angel told him. The Master could have easily killed him. Xander
didn't care. He didn't need Buffy as a girlfriend in order to
help her. That is what growing up means.
That is why "Empty Places" is so important. Buffy had
to lose even the support of the Scoobies in order to rise above
that level of rejection. It fits the pattern, because their rejection
makes her plan impractical, but it fits the wider truth because
without it what follows isn't such a big deal. This sort of rejection
and even betrayal will be shown again from Principal Synder to
Angel to Xander to her mother to Giles to Faith and on and on
and on.
In the case of "Prophecy Girl" destiny itself has betrayed
her. The entire season is about her accepting her destiny as Slayer,
but even though she has done this, destiny itself rejects her
by prophesying her death. She has thwarted other prophecies before,
according to Giles, but she wasn't part of those prophecies. She
is now what the prophecy is about. She is prophecy girl. Her Calling
gives her special powers in order to be able to stand up against
the vampires and forces of darkness. In a sense it protects her.
With one prophecy from Codex, her innocence about her own mortality
is shattered. This will cause deep feelings that carry over into
"When She Was Bad" next season.
Buffy rises above her own desire to live though. Her initial feelings
of "I don't want to die" so "I quit" give
way to something higher. She finds something greater than herself
worth fighting and dying for. That will repeat itself again most
dramatically when she dies to save Dawn. She gives up love to
save the world season two. She risks her life to save Angel season
three. She gives up her petty squabbles that are disconnecting
the Scoobies in order to do the conjoining spell season four.
She is willing to let go of heaven in order to show Dawn the world
season six. She is willing to be alone in order to protect others
and even gives up this image of herself season seven. She grows
up. She finds out what in life is important and she is willing
to put herself aside for that. That is Joss' wider truth.
[> Wonderful -- Nino, 20:01:55 09/01/03
Mon
[> nice connection --
Deacon, 20:28:39 09/01/03 Mon
[> Beautiful! -- HonorH,
21:03:10 09/01/03 Mon
You've just tied the whole series together beautifully. Kudos
to you!
[> [> Thanks everyone
for the compliments -- Diana, 07:50:07 09/02/03 Tue
It was frustrating not being able to post. I went to Hubby's work
to check email on Sunday since the cable modem was down this weekend.
Big Brother is not happy about the contents of this board. I couldn't
access it. Hubby thinks it is probably the Spike sex stuff. Couldn't
get to the Live Journals either. Guess the Coast Guard doesn't
like silly quizzes that tell us the meaning of life and other
nonsensical stuff. They could cause us to take up arms and overthrow
the government. Is that really a bad thing? It is about time the
Liberty Tree was watered with the blood of tyrants.
Now I am back up and starting to look at "When She Was Bad"
for the next circle of the tree.
Spike vs Harmony
-- JBone,
20:14:26 09/01/03 Mon
Yeah, I said I'd do anything! Oh. You mean will I have sex with
you?
Well, yeah.
http://www.geocities.com/road2apocalypse/showtime.html
Round 2 is back and the TC's this week are dub, d'H and TCH.
Comment Makers: Do you want to take a cheap shot at a character
you don't like, but don't want to get sucked into a big debate
about it? There is a guestbook thingy at the bottom of the voting
page (Showtime) you can use to get your drive-by comment in. I
love the comments I've been getting, but in some ways, they seem
a little too nice. There are a lot of apologies from people for
voting (or not) the way they are. I realize there was a lot of
blood in the water earlier this summer, but don't spare everyone's
feelings in your comments at the Apocalypse. I am here to facilitate
the offending, liberating, and/or funny remark. Just do it in
my guestbook thingy.
Also, you can post comments here as usual -- or email them to
me.
[> Re: Spike vs Harmony
-- d'Herblay, 20:31:03 09/01/03 Mon
What it comes down to, and I hope I won't offend anyone with this,
is that Harmony's sense of style is superior to Spike's. After
all, Spike's lousy taste in jewelry will prove to be the death
of him.
(By the way, if I haven't pimped "Her
Platinum Baby" enough, let me give it one more try. It's
the video that changed my entire perspective on the Buffyverse.
But do note that the "Warning: Excessive Cuteness" is
to be taken seriously.)
[> Okay, this was hard.
-- Apophis, 20:53:21 09/01/03 Mon
On the one hand, I have a strict policy of voting against Spike
and defiling his memory. On the other hand, Spike could easily
kill Harmony and, in fact, were it not for the Gem of Amarra,
he already would have. So, I enacted my Tie-Breaker Contingency
Question: Who has made more guest appearances on Boston Public?
With a score of 1 to 0, Harmony wins by an unprecedanted landslide.
Here's the breakdown of the match: By special decree of Junichiro
Koizumi, Prime Minister of Japan (all these fights take place
in Japan, right?), the fight will be a Japanese Exploding Ring
King of the Death Match. Spike and Harmony enter the ring and,
for 10 minutes, brutalize each other with barbed wire, broken
glass, 2 x 4's, and thumbtacks. At the 10 minute bell, the C-4
charges around and under the ring detonate. Due to the vampiric
vulnerability to fire, Spike is immediately incinerated. Harmony
is also incinerated, but 6 seconds after Spike, making her the
winner.
[> You all know my feelings
about this. -- cjl, 21:58:32 09/01/03 Mon
I love both these crazy kids. Spike is the poster vamp for self-improvement,
going for his soul when the safer and saner option would have
been to chuck the chip and go back to a nice, normal life of wanton
slaughter. Harm? Harm is my smooth little pack of mentholated
smokes, tied with Xander for Best Slap Fighter in Sunnydale. JM
for a whole season and Mercedes for at least 17 eps? Could a Spike/Harmony
fan want anything more? Well, maybe for the two of them to avoid
this battle-to-the-death thing. I'm sitting this one out, JBone.
Let the chips fall where they may.
[> Well, lessee-- --
HonorH, 22:25:15 09/01/03 Mon
Spike: full, rich character
Harmony: fine comic relief
Spike: great one-liners
Harmony: great target for one-liners
Spike: former Big Bad
Harmony: constant vacuous tramp
Spike: would have killed Harmony in HLoD
Harmony: got Spike to do the Sexy Bed Crawl in HLoD
Spike: treated Harm like crap
Harmony: annoyed the crap out of me
Spike: went out a hero
Harmony: went out with most of the basketball team
Spike: hot without a shirt
Harmony: also hot, but being female, just doesn't excite me
Spike it is!
[> Don't let the joke vote
win, kids -- Tchaikovsky, 01:12:42 09/02/03 Tue
Just because Spike has done some infiltrating and swamping in
late Season Seven's narrative vacuum and character non-journeys,
doesn't mean that his offerings in Seasons 2-7 don't vastly swamp
the amusement factor of Harmony. You might vote Harmony now, while
pretending she's Angel, but you'll regret it in the morning.
TCH
[> Re: Spike vs Harmony
-- Celebaelin, 06:27:03 09/02/03 Tue
Being a gentleman at heart I would of course normally vote the
vacuous tramp delightful fluff bundle to win, but I'm paralysed
with not caring very much. Spike wins.
[> Re: Spike vs Harmony
-- Arethusa, 07:59:51 09/02/03 Tue
I've grown rather fond of Harmony despite her lack of brains,
character or morality, but Spike killed her easily once before,
and he'd be able to finish her off with one hand tied behind his
back. Or even both hands.
[> hmmm.... -- deeva,
08:30:52 09/02/03 Tue
Who the hell am I kidding? I've always liked Spike. From his S2
sign mangling entry to his soul-fetchy-ness (well, not so much
really.) to the curent pile of dust that he is now. Harmony is
growing on me but the Super Peroxided One, as opposed to the not
so Blonde One, has my vote.
[> Re: Spike vs Harmony
-- Anneth, 08:36:36 09/02/03 Tue
The setting: Spike's crypt's W.C.
The characters: Spike and Harmony.
The prop: A bottle of Feria BlondeBlondeBlonde
The scene opens to find Harm cheerfully singing (la la la) to
herself as she prepares to camoflauge her roots. Enter Spike.
He wordlessly saunters over to Harm, grabs the bottle from her
hands, and begins to apply the contents to his own locks, ignoring
her entirely. Harmony looks up at him with huge, watery eyes and
then rushes out, sobbing. Spike victorious.
[> Re: Spike vs Harmony
-- MaeveRigan, 09:21:06 09/02/03 Tue
Joke vote? What joke vote? I really think that, empowered by whatever
demony-woman-power-wisdom Harmony should have picked up in that
source of all demony badness, Mexico and points south, Harmony
has all that and a pack of stakes to dust soulboy Spike while
he hesitates to consider whether or not he should apologize for
treating her so badly before. Whoops-a-daisy! (did I really say
that?)
But don't worry--he'll be back.
Anyone played
Buffy 2: Chaos Bleeds on PS2? -- Vash the Stampede, 08:34:26
09/02/03 Tue
If so, then I need help LOL I'm stuck in the church basement and
I can't find where to put the water valve at. Agh, I have been
running around the room, and I can't find a place to put it (and
the one place it does look like it could work says it not the
right place).
Despite this though, I am enjoying the game. Those of you who
haven't bought it yet should look into it. I don't know about
the other versions, but PS2 has new interviews with some of the
main characters, and its pretty fun to play (the wisecrack aren't
bad either)
Nothing Wrong
in Coersion? -- Claudia, 11:40:43 09/02/03 Tue
[In that case wouldn't it be coercive to force them to be individuals
when all they want to do is follow the crowd? Individual choice
could be to abdicate it. Many people operate on a mirror plane.
What right have we to smash a perfectly fine reflection?]
Since when has society ever forced people to be individuals? That
strikes me as a very rare occurrence, despite Western society's
claim about its belief in individualism. Are you saying that you
saw nothing wrong in Watchers like Merrick and Giles literally
nagging Buffy about accepting her duties as Slayers?
[> I know I don't --
Finn Mac Cool, 14:15:41 09/02/03 Tue
What's wrong with persuasion? If that were wrong, than parents
shouldn't tell their children to share, and civil rights activists
shouldn't tell people to embrace tolerance, and teachers shouldn't
tell students not to kill people.
[> Re: Nothing Wrong in
Coersion? -- Celebaelin, 16:45:53 09/02/03 Tue
The dictionary says coercion involves physical force and is associated
more with legal or governmental processes. Perhaps the question
is valid if the word persuasion or subversion is substituted.
The former is dependent on a winning argument (which is largely
a matter of opinion usually), the latter does indeed imply violent
overthrow if applied to a physical structure or an 'inversion'
if applied in an immaterial sense.
Everyone knows the merits of a quiet life and of being unobtrusive,
some relish it, I certainly enjoy anonymity whenever possible
but it allows you to accomplish precisely nothing. Under
those circumstances you can escape certain forms of criticism
but only because no-one gives a fig about what you're doing
or what your opinion is irrespective of however else they may
interact with you. The usual assumption is that you don't have
any thoughts at all rather than that you hold rational opinions
contrary to the accepted norm or range of norms. The 'Springfield
Elementary Independent Thought Alarm' just doesn't sound.
I feel strongly that if someone can be motivated to act to do
what they have come to believe is right by persuasion rather than
intimidated into not doing it by coercion then a powerful statement
is being made about the strength of feeling involved. Particularly
if the issue is a contraversial one which involves direct opposition
to authority but also on a more personal, less contraversial,
level. The potentially extremely serious consequences of ones
own actions (positive or negative) cannot and must not be left
out of any presented arguement if they are in any way unclear
if an individual is to be allowed to make an appropriate choice
based on personal circumstance and belief.
Where information is witheld rather than rejected ulterior motives
must be suspected. This starts to move in a rather jeuvenile 'you
started it' direction but interpersonal relationships are often
furthered or damaged by such things. With the exception of the
end of Lie to Me, which hardly counts, the first instance I can
think of in this regard is Buffy's non-disclosure of Angel's return.
In view of the events of Revelations I think any subsequent insistence
by Giles that Buffy become more knowledgeable about Slayerly concerns
qualifies as the actions of a doting father rather than a nagging
tutor.
Giles: I won't remind you that the fate of the world often
lies with the Slayer. What would be the point? Nor shall I remind
you that you've jeopardized the lives of all that you hold dear
by harboring a known murderer.
But, sadly, I must remind you that Angel tortured me... for hours...
for pleasure. You should have told me he was alive. You didn't.
You have no respect for me or the job I perform.
C
[> [> Correction
-- Celebaelin, 17:41:52 09/02/03 Tue
Not going to deal with my all too frequent vocabulary target fixation
for the most part but...
I feel strongly that if someone can be motivated to act to
do what they have come to believe is right by persuasion rather
than intimidated into not doing it by coercion then a powerful
statement is being made about the strength of feeling involved.
should really read as
"I believe that if someone can be motivated to act to do
what they have come to believe is right by persuasion rather than
intimidated into not doing it by coercion then a powerful statement
is being made about the strength of feeling involved."
if it is to communicate my original intent. The way it was presented
originally places too much emphasis on the power of the arguement
and not enough on the mind of the listener.
C
[> No, I don't see your
point as to why it was wrong for Giles to convince B to embrace
her destiny -- Nino,
17:02:21 09/02/03 Tue
[> [> It wasn't about
embracing her destiny -- Diana, 19:01:14 09/02/03 Tue
When Buffy just slayed because she was The Slayer, she lacked
fire. What she needed was the motivation behind why she was Slayer
other than just it was her duty. Giles was wrong in trying to
get her to accept her destiny. It isn't her destiny that she really
embraces, but sees her destiny as a means to a greater end. She
embraces that end.
There are soldiers that fight because they are soldiers. Then
there are men and women that wear a soldier's uniform because
they believe. They are the real soldiers.
[> [> [> Good point
-- Nino, 08:18:57
09/03/03 Wed
Maybe Giles just didn't see how someone, especially a slayer,
could have trouble seeing the importance of that end.
[> [> [> Quixotic
ramblings -- Celebaelin, 09:56:09 09/03/03 Wed
There are soldiers that fight because they are soldiers. Then
there are men and women that wear a soldier's uniform because
they believe. They are the real soldiers.
Blind belief is surely one of the last things you would require
from those under your command? When you consider that the detailed
thinking, rather than the accepted 'party line' must perforce
be kept secret when constructing a strategy designed to triumph
in a conflict, then the beliefs held by the majority of those
who serve must perforce be blind. Under that circumstance where
are the fails safes? In order to construct and implement any
effective strategy the initial outline or mission must be examined
in detail and every step evaluated in sequence, like chess, which
was in any case the original wargame. Some plans simply will not
work irrespective of the compliance or otherwise or those directed
to execute them. Belief in this instance has very little to do
with effective soldiering. If you are referring to right and wrong,
then yet again I have to say that this has little to do with maintaining
power or martial superiority. Only in so far as the efficiency
of your troops depends on their confidence in their moral rectitude
does this have any bearing at all. Historically, except in civil
wars or wars of independence (and not always then) paying them
well and regularly makes far more difference. That's the thing
really, for most people it's all about money at root. The practicalities
are 'do as your told or you don't get paid', fair enough I suppose.
But what about the people who that amorphous body called the system
can't or won't employ? How do you keep a hold over those to whom
you provide no protection from hunger, to whom the injustices
seem perpetrated by the status quo rather than opposed by it,
for whom the facts of their daily life directly contradict the
idea that the state is beneficent and rather seem to suggest that
the state is a vast paranoiac monster. If the governmental apparatus
is viewed largely, if not exclusively as the various limbs of
a bloated dragon preying on the penniless whilst suckling a serpents
brood and repressing freedom rather than promoting it then how
can you control such elements and ensure that they do not step
out of line? Through fear of course, fear of physical harm and
fear of further economic depravation.
Once you get people to buy into the idea of selling each other
out for a handful of beans the only way to avoid being thwarted
in any plan (and let's not kid ourselves, businesses have strategies)
is for no-one to know what the plan is and hey, got news for you,
in this day and age - not gonna happen. Knowledge is power, money
is power so, without too much of a stretch of the imagination
knowledge can be equated with money. If you don't believe this
then take something as simple as letting a company e-mail you
about new products, why would they? Because it increases sales,
particularly if you're overpaid, sad and lonely and therefore
impressed by getting e-mails about shiny new junk that hasn't
been properly developed yet.
So, invasion of privacy? Quite a big deal with me. Fairly
unimpressed with the whole notion. Moderately effing cheesed off
with the whole idea of illegal disclosure, infringement of civil
liberties, manipulation and constructive disenfranchisement of
the populace and the hypocrisy that is the untouchable corruption
of the wealthy and powerful.
Cele(doesn't respond well to threats)baelin
Getting kitted up
[> [> [> [> Not
sure if we are even talking about the same thing -- Diana,
11:46:15 09/03/03 Wed
In 1994 the US Coast Guard articulated what are known as "The
Core Values." These are: Honor, respect, and devotion to
duty. It is phrased specifically as:
HONOR - Integrity is our standard. We demonstrate uncompromising
ethical conduct and moral behavior in all of our personal actions.
We are loyal and accountable to the public trust.
RESPECT - We value our diverse work force. We treat each other
with fairness, dignity, and compassion. We encourage individual
opportunity and growth. We encourage creativity through empowerment.
We work as a team.
DEVOTION TO DUTY - We are professionals, military and civilian,
who seek responsibility, accept accountability, and are committed
to the successful achievement of our organizational goals. We
exist to serve. We serve with pride.
I do require that anyone who is under my command believe in these
without reservation. I have seen the difference between those
that actually believe in these and those that are there for a
pay check. Those that are there for a pay check endanger my husband's
life who is there because he believes.
There is another thing that everyone needs to believe before they
are handed a gun. It is called the Oath of Enlistment and in the
United State it goes:
I ___________________________________, do solemly swear (or affirm)
that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United
States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will
bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey
the orders of the President of the United States and the orders
of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and
the Uniform Code of Military Justice. (So help me God.)
The men and women that are fighting to protect the Constitution,
those that believe in it, are the real soldiers. Those that believe
in honor, respect and devotion to duty are the ones that I trust
to safeguard my life and freedom.
I've seen what the others do. They go to the Chief's hut or E-Club
down a few beers and then get in their cars to drive home. They
are the ones that try to cut corners and end up running the ship
aground or worse. They are the ones that destroy morale. These
people aren't real soldiers. They are mercenaries.
[> [> [> [> [>
Looks like we're not, not entirely anyway -- Celebaelin,
12:06:23 09/03/03 Wed
Honor, Respect & Devotion to duty and attached clauses.
I'm in a really bad mood currently but as mission statements go
I could live with it, as I hope could those who genuinely do attempt
to live by it.
...support and defend the Constitution of the United States
against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true
faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders
of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers
appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code
of Military Justice.
I note with interest the order of these loyalties and hope that
all those take the above oath do also. My suspicions in this regard
shall go unvoiced at this time. Please convey my best wishes to
your husband.
C
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Re: Looks like we're not, not entirely anyway --
Diana, 10:56:18 09/05/03 Fri
Wanted to let you know, Hubby said thanks. Also, you don't have
to voice your suspicions. Hubby and I voice them all the time,
rather loudly usually, but unfortunately only to each other.
Such is the price to live in such an imperfect world.
[> [> [> [> [>
Nice Speech, But . . . -- Claudia, 12:21:13 09/03/03
Wed
That was a very nice speech about honor, duty, devotion and whatever.
But you're talking about people who "volunteered" to
serve in the armed forces without any coersion, whatsoever (unless
they were drafted or someone talked them into it). As I recall
from both the movie and the TV show, Buffy chose to follow her
duties as a Slayer, because both of her Watchers relentlessly
coerced (or should I say nagged) her into "doing her duty".
If Buffy had chosen to be a Slayer without any outside force,
I would say be my guest. But she didn't. Why else would she consider
being a Slayer a burden? Even after she broke away from the Watchers'
Council, she continued her duties. Why? After three years, the
whole concept that she must be the Slayer had been drummed into
her and had become a habit. It is no wonder that she continued.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Well, then, shouldn't you also blame her parents?
-- Finn Mac Cool, 14:17:08 09/03/03 Wed
Odds are that Joyce and Hank, like most parents, taught Buffy
that human life had value, that people being killed was wrong,
and that you shouldn't ignore those in suffering. Wouldn't this
be them coercing Buffy into Slayerdom just as much as Merrick
and Giles's actions? By teaching her to value human life, her
parents unjustly pushed her to accept a job protecting people.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> How was she to understand what being the Slayer meant
w/o this so-called "nagging"? -- Nino,
19:28:29 09/03/03 Wed
Throw a book at her and say "Here's the deal, if you think
it sounds cool, show up for training tomorrow....if not, no biggie,
we'll just let vamps take over town until u kick the bucket and
the next slayer is called....hope she isnt just like you."
give me a break
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Give You a Break . . . What? -- Claudia, 12:24:23
09/04/03 Thu
[Throw a book at her and say "Here's the deal, if you think
it sounds cool, show up for training tomorrow....if not, no biggie,
we'll just let vamps take over town until u kick the bucket and
the next slayer is called....hope she isnt just like you."
give me a break]
Give you a break . . . what? I'm trying to say that if Buffy had
chosen not to accept her Slayer duties, she should have been left
alone, instead of being constantly nagged by Merrick and later,
Giles.
Which means that they wouldn't have a Slayer. But, so what? I'm
sure that the Watchers' Council have experienced demon fighters
and Potentials all over the world, capable of fighting demons.
They could have used them. I'm sure that they would still use
them, whether Buffy had accepted her duties or not.
What I'm trying to say is that Buffy should have been given the
choice to accept her Slayer duties, instead of being coerced by
employees of the Watchers' Council.
[> [> [> [> [>
I must go down to the sea again, to the lonely sea and the
sky, -- fresne, 16:45:45 09/03/03 Wed
Which briefly reminds me, as I go to get another cup of hot water,
of the Integrity poster on the refrigerator. There presumably
to prevent employees from stealing one another's food.
Sorry, that wasn't germane was it? It's just the word is now somewhat
ruined for me. I'm just waiting for them to put up a Clarity poster
next to the microwave.
The above statement is in no way intended to imply anything but
respect for the Coast Guard and the work that they do. My housemate's
father, uncle and grandfather are/were all career Coasties and
the sheer range of things that we expected from the armed service
most often forgotten when people list armed services is impressive.
This would seem to be a natural segue to parallel the Scoobies
with one of the more multi-tasking of military organizations.
And I briefly ponder what is it to be a Vampire Slayer? At its
basic level, Buffy's job is to Slay (i.e., kill) vampires. Fighting
demons, preventing apocalypses, etc. are all very pleasant cream,
but not necessarily in the job description.
From The Tales of the Slayer (comic and book format), I
get the impression that most Slayers roam the countryside clearing
out vamp nests and you know slaying. Not necessarily sitting in
one highly active spot and guardian-ing. Who guarded the Hellmouth
before Buffy galumphed into town? What apocali came and fizzled
and corked to nothing.
I presume the Scythe, which was used to drive out the last pure
demon, was wielded by some previous Slayer, some previous guardian
of the Sunnydale Hellmouth, but surely that was a long again time
ago. What then of the in between?
What does that imply about the existence/function of Slayers before
the last demon was driven out? Is the First Slayer the First Slayer?
Or merely the first in a constricted line that the Shadowmen created?
Or something else entirely. Did those bubbles that cleansed, oh
my goddess, carpet clean away demon blood stains? Or in a poor
Lucretia of Tarquin in-fame, is that even possible? Or in a Prometheus
unchained sort of way, whap, take that you vultures?
I consider the action of driving out demons, Philistines, Picts,
from this paradise, this earth. Jean d'Arc with her sword from
heaven (plus a decent grasp of the application of cannon fire)
driving forth and hence the English. The actions of a soldier
and in what army?
And I consider the function of the Coast Guard, to shine the light
in the fog, to save the drowning and the rudderless drifting,
and guard the liminal spaces, the coast, from incursion, danger,
attack.
Well, at least the Coast Guard no longer has to station a ship
at a very specific spot in the middle of the Atlantic to, I believe,
provide signal boost. Now we have lots and lots of satellites
to do that and they can go provide Ant and arctic scientists with
supplies and ice cutting instead.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Re: I must go down to the sea again, to the lonely sea
and the sky, -- MaeveRigan, 20:10:51 09/03/03 Wed
Hee! Fresne has some fun with it and brings some much needed levity
to the topic as it threatens to go too darksome. And yet also
manages to make a few good points about good men and women.
Lighthouses for Fresne!
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> And Heavyhouses for frowsne -- Celebaelin,
05:10:12 09/04/03 Thu
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> Floating Castles, with a star to sail it
by, for Celebration -- fresne, 10:17:59 09/04/03 Thu
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> Already planned (well, in the planning
stage) -- Celebaelin, 10:47:38 09/04/03 Thu
But that's a LOT of Glassteel, and then there's the Air Elementals,
the permanent (non dispellable, or effectively so) Levitation,
the protections against Reverse Gravity, Control Weather, Summon
Winds, Summoned Creatures etc, etc. The altitude question requires
a bit of consideration of course, as does the nature of the garrison.
And I thought my last stronghold took some planning, and that
one isn't even finished yet. Anyone else speak Stone Giant? 'Cos
if not who's going to run Harlequin's Keep? And what about the
training schools? Not to mention the cost (I told you not to mention
the cost). Problems problems.
C
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> Oooooh, Glassteel. -- fresne,
13:35:05 09/04/03 Thu
Now that sounds pretty. I was thinking your basic, floats a few
stories above the ground stone dealio. I know old fashioned, but
wow, you are a forward thinker. That would like totally be much
more structurally sound and capable of withstanding higher attitudes.
I'll admit, I was thinking more of your traditional floating castle.
It's not used, it has history.
I hear Laputa is pretty nice. Spacious. Plus, lots of neat gears.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> [> Head in the clouds
-- Celebaelin, 14:45:51 09/04/03 Thu
Now that sounds pretty.
Oh yes. Colours, transparent and translucent areas (privacy/surprise),
working on prisms, lenses and mirrors and stuff - and at night
with the lights 'open', sigh, I can see it now.
I was thinking your basic, floats a few stories above the ground
stone dealio.
Within range of the ground? What were you thinking? You'd build
an state of the art Wizards Palace close enough to the ground
that some mud grubbing Urak Hai can hit it with a bow? I mean,
a really good rock from a trebuchet (or more likely several) might
even dent a wall a little. No this really won't do, the minimum
safe distance to prevent ground impact considering a system failure
resulting in 1 minute of free fall is, by my calculations, 57,601
feet (a little less than 11 miles, x2 for a gentle slowing) above
local ground level, not accounting for wind resistance, Air Elemental
'manoevering thrusters' and/or glide characteristics. Above say,
400 feet, nothing organic inside the palace would survive the
sudden deceleration of ground impact but that's within bowshot
of clayfooters for a near vertical arrow. 500 feet and good planning
of the magical protections and/or contingent counterspells, that's
the answer.
C
PS It really is an awful lot of Glassteel, I mean LOADS, humongous
quantities, a predigiously vast amount. Think of a lot of Glassteel,
double it, and then cube it, and it still won't be enough.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> i suggest using Nothing(TM)
-- anom, 08:57:35 09/05/03 Fri
I'm thinking probably titanium-based Nothing. It should be plenty
strong enough to withstand anything short of explosives (an onager
would do no damage!) without having to float beyond the
atmosphere (after all, how can you enjoy a floating castle if
you can't breathe? there's a reason they call 'em castles in
the air). And it would be lighter than steel-based Nothing
(& possibly than Glassteel, I don't know how dense that is),
which would make it more economical to get it to the chosen altitude--&,
of course, it's fully transparent. So Nothing would work better!
Or am I getting too high-tech w/all this?
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> A rose by any
other name (would still look like a rose) -- Celebaelin, 10:19:45
09/05/03 Fri
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> There are some
alternatives -- Celebaelin, 20:33:05 09/05/03 Fri
I was rushing out earlier to go and play some low level 3rd Edn.
(we won, by which I mean we were still alive at 01:30 when the
DM went home). Must keep this brief as it's so OT but the Chinese
experimented with ceramic armour for tanks, so allegedly that's
possible (porcelain castles?) and I seem to recall that flawless
ruby or saphire would theoretically be stronger than steel (and
a lot prettier). Ruby rods are grown for lasers I beleieve but
I don't think they're 100% flawless. My rather cryptic point in
my earlier post is that the 'crystal palace' or the 'emerald city'
is almost a fable in itself. Pointing out that the material would
have to be strong to build with seems a little bit redundant so
if you describe 'the gemstone palace' to players (or let them
read the description) then the job is essentially done. If you're
in a smart-alec mood (and personally I often am) you might be
tempted to set out the underlying theory in a book that could
be found somewhere in the palace, but it would probably not be
all that interesting to people whose only real concern under most
circumstances is whether or not the stuff will break if they hit
it with a warhammer and how this might affect their chances of
living to see the next sunrise (not so good if they go around
hitting the walls of my palace with warhammers).
The Nothing idea is a bit abstract although a palace constructed
out of force fields is an interesting thought. Thing is, where
do you put the latrines, bedchambers etc.
C
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> it's
not a force field -- anom, 21:51:56 09/06/03 Sat
"The Nothing idea is a bit abstract although a palace constructed
out of force fields is an interesting thought. Thing is, where
do you put the latrines, bedchambers etc."
In fact, Nothing(tm) is entirely concrete & stronger than the
material it's made from (including, um, concrete). I was suggesting
it only for the outer walls; any interior spaces where privacy
is needed can of course be constructed of opaque or translucent
materials.
[> Backstory -- Darby,
06:31:37 09/03/03 Wed
In the comics done by the ME staff (Fray, Tales of the Slayer,
and the The Origin, based upon the original Whedon movie
script - thanks Rob, it's getting me ready to revisit the Movie),
which they have claimed in interviews as canon, it has been established
that part of the activation of the Slayer is a psychic connection
with the Slayers before her - the dreams are actually incidents
from their lives. It certainly could be seen as an indoctrination,
but the new Slayer has a knowledge, inclination toward duty, even
fighting skills drawn not from the Watchers but from those who
preceded her. That natural ability requires follow-up, more specific
training and information by the Watchers to keep her alive and
"on task," but I expect there's not as much convincing
necessary for someone who has been fighting demons down through
the centuries in her dreams (it is one of the first ways Giles
breaks through to Buffy in Welcome to the Hellmouth).
My assumption, from the many allusions to Buffy's prophetic dreams
and things like Restless, is that Buffy's position as a
Slayer among Slayers comes partly from her dream connection to
her predescessors being stronger than the others'. It would be
interesting if that ability drew from the energy of the Hellmouth,
and faded now that she has sealed it.
Question for
the Board -- Angie, 12:10:22 09/02/03 Tue
Hello Board
It has been quite some time since I last posted on this board
and I was wondering, what is the Buffy climate like here? Is there
still a positive vibe going for the character of Buffy? How about
the rest of the Scoobies? I have been around on other Boards,
and I must say that the Buffy hate is very much a factor. I would
appreciate any comments or advices. Thanks so much.
[> Wow -- Masquerade,
12:31:19 09/02/03 Tue
I don't frequent any board but this one, so it's kind of surprising
to hear about "Buffy hate".
There was some disappointment with season 7 on this board, but
people discuss it rationally and listen to each other's points
of view. There was some angst earlier this summer around the upcoming
appearance of Spike on "Angel", but that's died down.
I think you'll find this board pretty mature and balanced.
[> [> Well, feeling TOO
mature, and definitely UNbalanced (mentally and, er, walk-ingly)!
-- Marie, 08:52:23 09/03/03 Wed
...but certainly not hate-fully!
M
[> Interesting I post on
four boards and don't see that much negativity -- s'kat, 15:59:12
09/02/03 Tue
While they all have their little snafus, the overall vibe tends
to be positive. At Atpo - it's a little more in depth and analytical
than other boards, partly because the average age here is a little
older than some boards. So there's less character wars. Also unlike
some boards ATPO is not character centric or necessarily topic
centric - it focuses on BTVS and ATS. Some boards just center
on one of the shows or one of the characters and that does affect
the vibe. My suggestion is to lurk a while, see if you're comfortable.
That's what I did.
The other boards that I post on which are generally positive and
non-character centric:
Angel's Soul - it's a spoiler board (you can avoid spoilers while
visiting it though - they warn you and don't put spoilers in the
subject headings as a rule. But if you're worried about being
spoiled? Don't visit, since people occassionally forget.)
Buffy Cross and Stake - also a spoiler board
Angel After Spike (not a spoiler board and like ATPO, see link
at top.)
I haven't seen that much Buffy negativity.
Link for the
literati/geeky -- mamcu, 12:44:34 09/02/03 Tue
Try it--you'll like it:
http://philippe.tromeur.free.fr/whrpg.htm
Beginnings
of a Hero? -- Claudia, 14:21:40 09/02/03 Tue
I read an interesting essay about Spike in Season 4's "The
Initiative". The writer claimed that particular episode was
the beginning of Mutant Enemy's plans to make Spike a hero. And
yet, many have claimed that it was Season 5 - especially "Fool
For Love" that saw the beginning of Spike's role as a good
guy.
I wonder who is right?
[> Re: Beginnings of a Hero?
-- btvsk8, 16:10:42 09/02/03 Tue
I agree. For Spike to become a hero, he first had to become a
victim; obviously the Spike of Harsh light of day Spike would
not cut it in this category, the Initiative changes this. He had
to struggle, and the audience had to be able to empathise with
him. Of course Fool for love did this on a grand scale, and now
that I think of it, post-Whats my line Spike did it first, though
there was obviously not a plan to make Spike a hero at that point.
Just to confuse things even more, I would argue that Spike was
an anti-hero until season 7, not a hero in the traditional sense.
[> [> Spike a hero?
-- Liam, 01:45:13 09/03/03 Wed
I don't believe that Spike did anything that could be regarded
as 'heroic' until near the end of season 5, when he refused, despite
being tortured by Glory, to tell her about the Key. Even then,
it could be argued that he refused to do so on the grounds that
Dawn was Buffy's sister.
Until the end of season 7, I feel that the what he did was motivated
by the question 'What would Buffy do?' so anything that would
hurt those near to her had to be fought. The problem for us, the
viewers, is that we didn't see him doing anything to help people
who weren't connected to Buffy in any way; so what he did could
be put down to his love for _her_, not concern for people in general.
[> [> [> No need to
argue -- skeeve, 08:15:18 09/04/03 Thu
Spike has explictly stated that he doesn't like "Summers
women" taking it on the chin.
Regarding another post, Spike has also stated that he likes the
world: "six billion happy meals with legs", ergo Buffy
was not the only reason he helped her save the world.
[> [> [> [> Spike
helping to save the world in 'Becoming, Part II' -- Liam,
01:49:43 09/05/03 Fri
skeeve, Spike wanted to save the world at the end of season 2
because he liked _eating_ humans, as shown by his calling them
'Happy Meals with legs'; it doesn't suggest that he liked them
as individuals. His alliance with Buffy against Angelus was simply
one of convenience, like the UK and the USA with the USSR in World
War Two. I've never believed that Spike had any feelings towards
Buffy at that time, apart from those of lusting to kill her.
In 'Fool For Love' in season 5, the writers tried to suggest that
he was in love with her long before 'Out of My Mind' in season
5, suggesting that it was the cause of his break up with Dru in
season 3. The problem is that I saw no indication of this in the
episode when he briefly returned to Sunnydale in season 3 after
the breakup.
[> [> [> [> [>
But Dru did -- Celebaelin, 05:05:40 09/05/03 Fri
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Agree with Celebaelin -- Arethusa, 06:43:41 09/05/03
Fri
Because Dru's psychic it's possible she knew in Season 3 he would
become interested in Buffy later. Thus he did not have
to be in love with Buffy during Season 3. (My theory is that his
obsession with her changed from bloodlust to lust in Season 4
during "Who Are You.")
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: Spike helping to save the world in 'Becoming, Part II'
-- skeeve, 08:39:57 09/05/03 Fri
I never said that Spike had a nice reason for wanting to
save the world. I don't remember the episode well enough to know
whether Spike actually allied himself with Buffy or just worked
separately for somewhat the same goal.
Methinks that Spike's standing up to Glory's torture was purely
the result of his love for Buffy and other Summers women. He told
Glory almost as much.
That said, had he thought about it, Spike might also have had
the same motives he had in Becoming.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Re: Spike helping to save the world in 'Becoming, Part
II' -- Liam, 10:24:19 09/05/03 Fri
skeeve, Spike did ally himself with Buffy, offering his help to
stop Angelus. In the episode, He said that if she wanted to stop
Angelus, 'we're gonna play this a bit differently'. When Buffy
asked what he was on about, Spike explained, 'I'm talking about
putting him in the bloody ground'.
When Buffy was still suspicious, Spike became more explicit, 'I
told you. I want to stop Angel. I want to save the world'. When
she asked why, Spike said:
The truth is, I like this world. You've got...dog racing, Manchester
United. And you've got people. Billions of people walking about
like Happy Meals with legs.
Buffy asked why he came to her, and was told, 'I want Dru back.
I want it like it was before he came back. The way she acts round
him...'. So he gave her two reasons for stopping Angelus. First,
because he likes eating humans; and second, he wants Dru back,
two 100% selfish reasons.
Buffy concentrated on Spike's second reason, calling him 'pathetic',
then saying, 'The whole earth may be sucked into Hell and you
want my help 'cause your girlfriend's a big ho?' She then said
that she didn't care about that. Spike replied that he was 'all
you've got'.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Re: Spike helping to save the world in 'Becoming,
Part II' -- skeeve, 12:09:16 09/05/03 Fri
I agree about Spike's motives in Becomming.
In Becoming, Spike had four purely selfish reasons for helping
save the world: dog racing, Manchester United, Happy Meals with
legs, and Dru.
When Glory tortured him, he clearly had at least one unselfish
motive for resisting: Summers women, especially Buffy. He even
seemed to have forgotten that selfish ones still applied.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Necessary? -- Claudia, 10:08:38 09/09/03 Tue
Is it really necessary for a person to be completely selfless
to do good? Can one help another or do good, because he or she
cares about that particular person?
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> What if... -- Celebaelin, 14:05:11 09/09/03
Tue
the good of the other person, the dearest beloved, is contrary
to the general good (not only your own but others as well)? What
would you do then?
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> Re: What if... - My Choice -- Claudia,
11:46:49 09/11/03 Thu
I would choose my beloved. Sorry. But being selfless is not really
me. Not if it gets in the way of someone I really care about.
I believe that my own personal well-being is more important than
what happens in the world at large. Focusing too much upon what
happens to the world at large, is not that healthy, in my opinion.
I think it prevents a person from finding inner peace.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> Choice -- Celebaelin, 17:47:54
09/11/03 Thu
Your own well being you can speak for, that of others? That is
another matter altogether.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Re: Necessary? -- skeeve, 11:13:50 09/11/03
Thu
Claudia:
Is it really necessary for a person to be completely selfless
to do good?
Of course not. Saving the world was a good thing regardless of
why Spike was willing to help.
Why one saves the world is an important aspect of one's personality.
If one saves the world because one makes a mistake while trying
to destroy it, that would say something nasty about one's personality.
Saving the world solely because of billions of happy meals with
legs also says something about one's personality.
If one saves the world because someone one loves is in it, that
says something else about one's personality.
Saving the world because someone one loves wants one to says yet
another thing about one's personality.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> Re: Necessary? -- Claudia, 12:04:24
09/11/03 Thu
I'm sorry. I don't fully understand your post. Except for the
sentence about happy meals on legs.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> Re: Necessary? -- skeeve, 16:20:39
09/12/03 Fri
Claudia:
I'm sorry. I don't fully understand your post. Except for the
sentence about happy meals on legs.
To summarize: Reasons matter.
Would you like fries with that?
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> Re: Necessary? -- Celebaelin, 16:05:19
09/11/03 Thu
Saving the world because someone one loves is in it is the best,
and possibly the only, reason to save the world.
(See S6)
Love conquers all things, let us too give in to Love.
Virgil Eclogue, Book X
Amo
Amas
Amat it again
Latin killed the Romans and now it's killing me too!
C (who actually doubts that there are other ways to 'vincit omnia')
[> [> [> Re: Spike
a hero? -- Claudia, 10:49:53 09/03/03 Wed
I have no problem with Spike doing good because of Buffy. To me,
he is merely acting from his heart and not out of a sense of "duty".
I guess I find the idea of doing something good out of "duty"
a bit self-righteous and give him or her a false sense of morality.
And to do good out of concern for the world - well, one would
have to like the world to do something like that. Whether Spike
has done good to save the world -namely his actions in "Becoming"
- is up to debate.
[> [> [> Spike's hero
journey -- Robert, 12:51:55 09/03/03 Wed
>>> I don't believe that Spike did anything that could
be regarded as 'heroic' until near the end of season 5, when he
refused, despite being tortured by Glory, to tell her about the
Key.
I think you might have misunderstood Claudia's point. Season four
was when Mutant Enemy put Spike on a journey, the destination
of which was becoming a hero. He didn't actually achieve hero
status until the end of Chosen, when he sacrificed his own existance
to save the women and ultimately the world.
Otherwise, I completely agree with you. Spike's love for Buffy
was often selfish and sufficating. During season six, Spike valued
his feelings for Buffy above Buffy's own welfare. Spike recognized
this in Seeing Red, and subsequently sought out help to improve
himself. Season seven was about Spike becoming someone whom Buffy
could love in return, and ultimately a hero.
[> [> [> [> Per
Marti the answer is no -- Diana, 14:56:33 09/03/03 Wed
Willow was always going to go evil, but what happened to Spike
was as Marti has said,
Well, the whole genesis of Spike is that we just wanted a cool
villain. He was introduced as part of a Sid and Nancy set, and
then he just popped up as a character, and we wanted to bring
him back. We weren't sure how he would function in the group because
he was evil, and more or less as a function of story-telling we
wanted to make him less so, so he could be around the gang more.
So, we had him tracked by the government, and a chip is put in
his head, so he is unable to attack people. So for a long time
he was good by default. He was still able to hurt demons, his
chip didn't stop that, but he was fighting on the side of right
because he still liked to kill things. But slowly you start to
have moral questions. Is this a change in conditioning? Was the
active fight for good, did that start to make him seek out good?
And then he becomes attracted to Buffy. I've always joked around
that he became attracted to Buffy because she could hit him the
hardest, that he liked to be abused. Then we discovered that there
was a real heart to that story-line, and they had a real chemistry
together. So a lot of times people who see this as a grand design,
an opera about good and evil. It's just really a slowly evolving
thing, and sometimes form follows function. And as we watched,
eventually we found that Spike was a real romantic foil for Buffy.
And also what we've seen is Buffy attracted to her own darkness.
To her own aggression, to sex without love, to sex where love
is really subdued, all of the things that she can't permit, because
she is a hero.
No planned journey for Spike. We just get to construct one in
hindsight. Is that such a bad thing? Jane Espenson has said that
without a soul, the writers were not looking at Spike from a redemption
angle. Until they determined that he was going to get his soul,
he wasn't put on any sort of path that would be called heroic.
Again, not a bad thing.
And Season 7 Spike wasn't about becoming someone Buffy could LOVE.
It was about becoming someone Buffy could TRUST. They never got
a chance to work up to love.
[> [> [> [> [>
Perhaps -- Claudia, 10:05:20 09/04/03 Thu
[And Season 7 Spike wasn't about becoming someone Buffy could
LOVE. It was about becoming someone Buffy could TRUST. They never
got a chance to work up to love.]
Perhaps or perhaps not. I'm one of those who believed that Buffy
came to love Spike (and I'm not speaking as friends). However,
I must admit that I had enjoyed the way she learned to trust Spike.
[> [> [> [> [>
Very good arguments! -- Robert, 15:44:07 09/04/03 Thu
>>> No planned journey for Spike. We just get to construct
one in hindsight.
I admit that when I stated that Mutant Enemy (ME) put Spike on
a journey, I assumed that it was a planned action by Joss Whedon,
if not the entire writing staff. Your evidence strongly disputes
that, though not conclusively. Joss has been known to play his
cards close to the vest, and he plans frightfully far ahead. However,
I can accept your argument as probably correct.
Nevertheless, ME put Spike on this journey, whether by intention
or not.
>>> And Season 7 Spike wasn't about becoming someone
Buffy could LOVE. It was about becoming someone Buffy could TRUST.
I believe for Buffy love and trust are different sides of the
same die. In season six, Buffy could not love Spike, largely because
she couldn't trust him. Despite this, she was still able to develop
some level of respect, as evidenced at the end of As You Were.
Buffy's inability to trust Spike arose not so much due to his
lack of a soul (despite her declarations to the contrary), as
due to his lack of selflessness. His actions in season five and
six were geared toward making Buffy love him or (even worse) dependent
upon him.
His seeking a soul was his first step toward selflessness. The
soul didn't make him trustworthy, any more than Warren or Andrew
were trustworthy. Earning the soul represented his earnest desire
to be a better persone, worthy of Buffy's trust and her love.
>>> They never got a chance to work up to love.
With this I do not agree. The love they attained in season seven
was far more than anything they had in season six, whilst knocking
the building down. The love they achieved was one of affection
and tenderness, not of lust. We did not get to see them resume
sexual relations, and they may never do so. But, I do believe
that we saw them love each other.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Re: Very good arguments! -- Rufus, 17:32:26 09/04/03
Thu
Nevertheless, ME put Spike on this journey, whether by intention
or not.
From the Commentary for Fool For Love
Underneath it all Spike is this guy with a broken heart so
that even though he changes, piece by piece, step by step he goes
far far away from being this guy, at the end he's still this guy.
He's changed everything about himself, but he hasn't changed anything.
And that makes Spike a lot more interesting. He becomes so vulnerable
here, James is a great actor. I love too that he admits that he's
a bad poet. He knows his limitations. He's so brave, tell her
what he really feels. He knows he's going to get shot down too.
> "I know I'm a bad poet, but I'm a good man"
> I think he's telling the truth. He's a bad poet but a good
man. He wants to be a good man. But that's something he goes far
away from as well, in his century long journey from little William
the poet to bad ass Spike. He doesn't want to be a good man anymore.
In season four The Initiative, Petrie mentioned that he had trouble
writing Spike in a way that would be heroic, a bad guy can't be
heroic he thought. Joss just told Petrie "he's (Spike)heroic".
What we see is a man who start out as a good man who ends up far
from how he started. Like Angel there is a descent into darkness
only for a gradual ascent back to the light. Angel started at
a point where we first saw him, where he was on his way back to
humanity. We only got to see how bad Angelus had been in flashbacks
and the time he lost his soul with Buffy, then again in season
4 Angel. With Spike we saw the same sort of journey where we only
knew the present condition of the demon only to find out that
he didn't start that way. Both characters have grown in complexity
as their popularity with the audience grew.
Spike started doing heroic acts or acts that on the surface could
be considered brave. As his character evolved his motivations
changed and we watched as he became a true hero, acting not out
of personal gain but because he felt he was doing what was right.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Speculation about season five Angel (well known
casting spoiler and speculation) -- Rufus, 17:45:41 09/04/03
Thu
Again from the Commentary for Fool For Love.....
And he licks his fingers. So we're really building a monster
here,piece by piece. And when you build a monster, you have to
start with a human being, and you realise that they're not as
monstrous as you may originally think and they got this way for
a reason. Spike is so deeply insecure. A lot of this killing the
slayer is has to do with showing up Angel and knowing that he's
never going to be as potent or as fearsome as Angelus.
Darla said "what we once were informs all that we become"
this quote from the Commentary for Fool for Love bears this out.
Spike is William, he could change the accent, the clothes but
he never really changed at all. Most of what he did he did for
recognition and competition with a father figure. On the other
hand, Angel has insecurities of his own that the soulless Spike
wouldn't have noticed but maybe the soulled Spike will eventually
catch onto. I think he will make a great foil for Angel.
again Fool for Love commentary
One of the things about the 70s slayer is that we felt it might
be a little arch (this is harsh, that's just harsh, I hate to
see her go), and one of the ways we sold it to Joss Whedon was
the big black coat. He picks up the coat, and that's a bit of
a homage to - if you're a > comic book fan - to Frank Miller's
Sin City. There's this guy called Marv who kills his way up the
echelon of this dirty dirty underworld while solving this mystery.
And every time he kills a guy, he takes his coat, so he gets a
better coat throughout.
Notice that Spike's coat is a constant, and this can signify that
he hasn't moved up or down an echelon of existance. He may have
died a hero in Sunnydale but he is still very much the man he
has always been. His return to LA and the company of Angel will
be the start of a new type of progression or regression for either
guy.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Your quote regarding the Initiative shows why MN's
comments can't be definitive on authorial intent. -- Sophist,
09:05:49 09/05/03 Fri
After all, if JW told Petrie in S4 that "he's (Spike's)heroic",
then that supports Robert's original assertion that ME put Spike
on a hero's journey beginning in S4.
Of course, since I think MN's comment is not inconsistent with
that assertion, so much the better. Not that I believe authorial
intent is all that important or anything. :)
We all agree it was a long journey.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> Define heroic -- Diana, 10:23:24 09/05/03
Fri
On another board, I got into a lot of trouble by calling Spike
a pathetic character. He is. His character rests in pathos,
as in classic Greek Tragedy. He's just a means to tell Joss' story,
but so is Buffy. A clock won't work if you remove even the tiniest
gears. It isn't an insult. People took pathetic to mean lame.
What did Joss mean when he said that Spike was heroic? That is
where the problem with authorial intent comes. We have to actually
figure out what it is. I interpret Marti's words one way and you
another. We can't even agree on her words. How are we going to
agree on how they apply to the story?
When I heard Petrie talking, I was hearing heroic not as in Greek
Tragedy. I was hearing heroic as in Errol Flynn. Heroic as in
"Impressive in size or scope; grand. Of a size or scale that
is larger than life." Spike is the weanie that had to go
to Buffy for help, wacked Angel from behind and talk about wuss
in "Lover's Walk." Was that Spike grand or larger than
life? Could Spike's pathos be maintained if he was? I think that
was Petrie's concern. Joss just made Spike's pathos grand and
larger than life.
That's how I see it.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> Re: Define heroic -- Sophist, 17:03:29
09/05/03 Fri
First, the ambiguity of the words used is one of the reasons that
a single authorial comment cannot be definitive on the subject
of authorial intent.
Second, let's consider the definitions:
pathetic means having a capacity to move one to either compassionate
or contemptuous pity
As an aside, I can see how people might have assumed you meant
"contemptuous" rather than "compassionate".
In my own experience, "contemptuous" is by far the more
common usage, with the "compassionate" sense reserved
for lit majors.
More important, though, is that the word "pathetic",
whether valid or not, is your word, not a word used by JW or MN.
It's fine for you to interpret Spike that way, but it's not necessarily
the author's intent.
heroic means exhibiting or marked by courage or daring; Grand-noble;
of impressive size, power or effect
You suggest that JW used the term in the latter sense. While that's
logically possible, that would be the less common usage and wouldn't
fit very well to the circumstances of the plot in The Initiative.
Spike does exhibit courage and daring in that episode, but not
impressive size or power (which would, in fact, be inconsistent
with the chip).
Your suggested combination of the two terms -- "grandly pathetic",
I suppose -- combines the least likely definitions of 2 terms,
one of which was not even used by JW or MN. I therefore find it
very unlikely that your characterization of Spike could be ascribed
to either of them.
Even if it were what JW meant, that would not demonstrate that
he had no intention to put Spike on a hero's journey in S4. Spike
could still move from one who inspired pity in S4 to one admired
for his achievements and qualities in S7, thereby completing his
journey.
In summary, I don't believe that authorial intent is all that
important in interpreting the story; I don't believe that one
comment by MN could establish authorial intent; and I do believe
that MN and JW meant something quite different from what you suggest.
The irony is, of course, that my near-slavish devotion to each
viewer's own interpretation means that you are perfectly free
to maintain yours even in the face of my compelling arguments.
:)
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> Authorial intent, TV, and ME -- s'kat,
16:41:22 09/05/03 Fri
When I did my whole essay on the TV medium (see Angel After Spike
board for it or the archives), I read through hundreds of actor
and writer interviews from 1998-2003, also lots of writer commentary
on DVD's (which have kindly been transcribed by people on this
board). Their interviews regarding intent? Aren't consistent.
They contradict themselves and each other regarding 'ships, heroism,
and souls. The only things that appear to be a constant are "the
journey towards redemption" and "the young girl's journey
towards growing up/female empowerement". Everything else?
You might as well pin jello to a wall.
Regarding MN or DF? LOL! I've learned to take everything these
writers say with a grain of salt. The show-runner is Joss Whedon,
they really don't have much say in the overall emotional arcs.
Here's a little sampling:
Compare David Fury's comments in 1998 at Bronze Beta where he
considers
Spike evil and irredeemable to his comments at the Succubus Club
where he states Spike was always more redeemable than Angel. LOL!
"To those who feel my conviction that Spike can never be
redeemed and cannot someday end up with our heroine, shows a lack
of imagination of my part, I say you're right. It is beyond my
limited imagination to see a strong, independent, female character
end up falling for a murderer who would be killling innocent people
were he not suffering from chip affliction..."
And:
DAvid Fury 2003 = "I got this hate mail about how Spike was
the Fonzi. He was the cool character with leather jacket which
we wrapped the show around and that's NOT how we write our shows.
Spike provided Buffy with an emotional through line she wouldn't
have and Angel was gone, own show, making him her nemesis and
mortal enemy at first was interesting way to go.
now I wasn't for B/S but I rationalized that.
LMPTM - they thought we were changing the whole vampire mythology
- Spike is an anamoly in the vampire world. We tried to say it
in the very beginning in Surprise, his mother, he is something
special, he retained some part of his soul or compassion that
was always there that allowed him to fall for Buffy. Whatever
we told was always there."
Both were responses to fans.
Now let's look at Marti:
Who says in an interview with Salon.com that Spike is very heroic
in her eyes because he faces the abyss and has to fight against
it. Then in an earlier interview says he's not a hero without
a soul.
Then we get Joss Whedon:
Joss: "Well, he's a different guy than Angel. Hopefully he's
a different guy because otherwise Angel's going to be really boring.
I think Spike was actually a lot closer to human. Angel was at
full-tilt evil, that just got clothes lined by those Gypsies and
spent 100 years going, 'Ah yah aha hah,' trying to figure it out
-- what it was he had to do. Spike actually went in search for
a soul while he had none, so I think he was much more evolved
then Angel, personally. I think that's why it was easier for him
to make the transition." Comic-Con Q&A
And 10 Questions with NY Times
"A. I would love to give you a more in-depth coherent explanation
of my view of the soul, and if I had one I would. The soul and
my concept of it are as ephemeral as anybody's, and possibly more
so. And in terms of the show, it is something that exists to meet
the needs of convenience; the truth is sometimes you can trap
it in a jar; the truth is sometimes someone without one seems
more interesting than someone with one. I don't think Clem has
a soul, but he's certainly a sweet guy. Spike was definitely kind
of a soulful character before he had a soul, but we made it clear
that there was a level on which he could not operate. Although
Spike could feel love, it was the possessive and selfish kind
of love that most people feel. The concept of real altruism didn't
exist for him. And although he did love Buffy and was moved by
her emotionally, ultimately his desire to possess her led him
to try and rape her because he couldn't make the connection --
the difference between their dominance games and actual rape.
With a soul comes a more adult understanding. That is again, a
little vague, but... can I say that I believe in the soul? I don't
know that I can. It's a beautiful concept, as is resurrection
and a lot of other things we have on the show that I'm not really
sure I can explain and I certainly don't believe in. It does fall
prey to convenience, but at the same time it has consistently
marked the real difference between somebody with a complex moral
structure and someone who may be affable and even likable, but
ultimately eats kittens. "
Hmmm...this actually seems to be less contradictory.
Moral? Pay attention to Whedon, ignore the rest of them.
Also in all his interviews, Whedon has reiterated that Spike was
redeemed and died a heroes death in Chosen. HE was a noble hero
in S7 according to Joss Whedon, the show-runner, writer & director
of the last episode. Marti left
after LMPTM to do a new series, she was gone.
I now find myself smiling whenever any one tries to prove a point
by citing Marti Noxon, David Fury or any of the other writers
outside of Whedon - b/c if I look hard enough? I can find a quote
proving the exact opposite. Heck Marti and David F. contradict
themselves all the time. Whedon actually is the only one who has
stayed more or less consistent in his interviews. (Maybe he just
understands his characters/show better??)
And since he's still the show-runner (ie the person who has created
back-stories for all the characters and the universe more or less
and the general theme, arc for the season) - I'd go with him.
Ignore the rest of them in regards to story content. It'll just
drive you wacky hunting consensus. Regarding process?
They can be really informative.
Just my opinion for what it's worth. YMMV
sk
PS: nice to see you posting again Sophist, missed you. ;-)
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> Thanks. -- Sophist, 19:47:05
09/05/03 Fri
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> The reason they contradict themselves
. . . -- Finn Mac Cool, 10:04:21 09/06/03 Sat
Is that the storyline changed. They can't just say their beliefs
about the characters and the show clash with what the show has
actually said, so they change their views on it to fit what the
show has become a little better.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> Except... -- s'kat, 20:37:25
09/06/03 Sat
I'd go along with that except - I've read interviews that were
literally done in the same season where the writers contradicted
each other and themselves, constantly.
I honestly don't think interviews are a good source for authorial
intent.
Now DVD commentary? That is a little less contradictory and may
give some insight. As may commentary in magazines like
SFX after the season has aired, which more often than not deals
with the process more than the intended content.
The problem with TV and figuring out authorial intent is it is
a collaborative process.
Example: David Fury wrote and directed LMPTM. Right? So he's the
one to interview on authorial intent? Right? Wrong.
He co-wrote the episode with Drew Goddard. Then when he directed
it - he re-did portions with DB Woodside and James Marsters who
helped him figure out what to emphasize. Then
they dealt with an actress who was playing William's Mom who was
hitting on James off-stage, this played into it. They couldn't
get the same actress who played Nikki in Fool for Love...that
had an effect. Fury wanted to call it Mothers and Sons, but Drew
pointed out Giles/Buffy. Then we had Drew re-write David's scenes
and David rewrite Drews.
So the city of angel interview where David discusses LMPTM?
Can't use it for authorial intent. Why? Because it's not
David's episode solely. Now - the DVD Commentary on it which is
with DF, DGoddard, DB Woodside, and James Marsters?
Yes, you can probably reference that to a degree, but not on the
Giles/Buffy bit - you'd need SMG and ASH for that.
And it still wouldn't be complete. Why? You're missing the showrunners
and the producers who picked which takes got in and the edit.
And even with all that? Still off - since LMPTM is not self-contained
- you need to know what the intent was behind Fool For Love and
School Hard and all the other episodes as well.
It's not the same as listening to Stephen King discuss what he
meant when he wrote The Stand. This is a collaboration.
Or even for that matter Stanley Kubrick discussing The Shining
or PEter Jackson discussing Lord of The Rings.
Because those are more self-contained.
In short Finn, to use a writer interview to prove a point about
authorial intent for a television series that the writers freely
admit is a collaboration and loosely plotted? Is absurd. All you're
doing is choosing phrases to prove how you see the show. The fact
that someone could easily find phrases to support their view which
is contrary to yours? Proves this point. To figure out ME's authorial
intent directly? Over the past seven years? We'd have to gather
all the writers, producers, actors, etc who ever worked on the
show into a room and ask them. And uh, even if we did that - I
bet none of them would be able to tell us their intent per episode,
except in an overall general sense: ie. female empowerment, redemption,
being your own hero...b/c they've probably forgotten. They don't
watch the show or focus on it the way we do. They create it -
get it up on the screen - move to the next episode...often forgetting
the one they did. James Marsters doesn't remember most of the
stuff he did on Buffy. Whedon? He's struggling coming up with
commentary for Chosen. It's a blur. It's a fast paced, stressful,
time-consuming, exhausting process: you work 180 hours, 13-22
hour days, 5-7 days at a stretch, 5 hours sleep over 4 days if
that,
and then whammo five to six days off, and you're doing it again.
And this pace is for writers, directors, actors, etc.
So it's not surprising to me that authorial intent gets spread
out a bit - so much so - that it is miraculous that we get such
innovative and cohesive products. But not entirely miraculous,
b/c there is a trick to it - have a tough, show-runner. Whedon
is not kidding when he says a TV show must be run like a military
operation. It has to. You have to make everyone buckle down to
your vision. Yet at the same time, you can't make it so rigid
that creativity gets stifled and the show becomes stale and "overly"
formulaic. Whedon did a good job of keeping things loose enough
to let the individual creative voices through, yet tight enough
that it did not become chaotic.
I think if you want authorial intent - your best bet is Whedon
regarding the overall picture. But keep in mind even his intent
is somewhat affected by those surrounding him, he'd be the first
to admit that - heck he already has.
Oh - if you asked me what my authorial intent was behind writing
my essays or even my book? I couldn't tell you.
It changes on a daily basis and that's just one writer with a
work that is only from one source. This is why I find determining
authorial intent such a quagmire.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> [> That's what I was getting
at -- Finn Mac Cool, 21:08:19 09/06/03 Sat
My point was that interviews don't really reflect intent; they're
interpretations of the show at the time. If I believed they did
show authorial intent, it would be rather hypocritical to say
that they change what they say as the show changes (even a few
episodes can radically change the show). Because they can't really
control the progression of the show, they're views on it are bound
to change with time.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Oh. Thanks for the
clarification. I agree with that. -- s'kat, 18:07:26 09/07/03
Sun
Interpretations not unlike our own....yes, I think that is different
than intent and I'd agree. ;-)
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> See what I do........ -- Rufus, 02:32:28
09/07/03 Sun
I get copies of all interviews, shred them, put them in a bowl
with equal parts blood and spit, say a few latin words and watch
the whole thing go Kaboom! No one writer is the absolute authority
on the show save what little Mr. Whedon can say about his original
intent before he configured it to fit into fan expectation.
Hero, a hero.....could be the lead in a play, or some person who
does some courageous thing. What I see a hero in any work of Joss
Whedons as is someone who started one way and through a series
of events led them to somewhere else...if it's good the person
is a hero, if it's evil/bad then they wear a black hat. Everyone
is on a journey and a good person can end a hero, and a villian
can end up saving the world. In the world of Joss no one is immune
from change.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Re: Very good arguments! - I Don't Know -- Claudia,
09:56:02 09/05/03 Fri
[Buffy's inability to trust Spike arose not so much due to his
lack of a soul (despite her declarations to the contrary), as
due to his lack of selflessness. His actions in season five and
six were geared toward making Buffy love him or (even worse) dependent
upon him.]
I think the real reason behind Buffy's lack of trust toward Spike
(at least romantically, since she trusted him to take care of
Dawn) mainly came from her own narrow view of morality. At that
time, she still couldn't accept how complex morality really is.
And because she continued to maintain this narrow view, she failed
to trust or respect Spike and viewed her attraction toward him
as something evil. In a way, it was evil, due to her own mistreatment
of him.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Trust and love -- Diana, 10:01:38 09/05/03 Fri
I am so reluctant to do this here, but if I get pounced on, I'm
just going to ignore it. For me, love is when something deep inside
one person connects with something deep inside another. That was
vague, but it isn't something that can be rationally explained.
It can only be felt. Poets and the like try to paint situations
analogous to where we have felt it in order to get us to feel
it again.
In order to get to a point where someone can touch us on that
level, trust is needed. We have all these barriers around that
part deep inside us. It is fragile and when it is hurt, we hurt
the most. If we don't trust someone, we won't lower the barriers
and let them in. Poets and painters manage to sneak around the
barriers sometimes, but when it comes to one on one action, trust
is really necessary. That can be physical trust as in letting
someone physically touch you as in erotic love or it can be something
more mental where we let them touch us in non-physical manners.
This season, Spike and Buffy's relationship was about developing
that trust. It was actually very sweet. Without that trust, she
couldn't let her guard down enough for him to get in and touch
her. Without that, there is no love. Were the barriers down in
"Chosen?" Probably as evidenced by her giving him the
amulet and telling Angel that having him around would be confusing.
However, once the barriers are down, then the connection has to
occur. They didn't have time to develop that.
It isn't like he was accumulating money and all he needed was
for the bank to open so he could deposit it. The barriers come
down and then accumulation starts. Prior to this the money went
towards getting the barriers down in the first place. We can look
at all he did for Buffy prior to "Touched" and say that
she should love him, but until she starts to trust him, love can't
develop. It needs time to do that and they didn't have that.
Did Buffy love Spike when she said it? At that moment, he touched
her. At that moment she did. If he survived for some wacky reason,
though, he would no longer touch her. That was how she felt in
the moment, not how she felt about him overall. That is why she
said it and that is why he said "No you don't." They
were working towards that overall love, but they hadn't gotten
there yet.
That's just how I see it.
[> [> [> [> [>
I think you've misinterpreted MN's comments -- Sophist,
17:06:56 09/03/03 Wed
Before I get to MN's statement, I should say that the use of her
isolated comments would not prove authorial intent even if that
were as important as you think.
As for whether S7 was about love or trust, well, you can watch
your S7 and the rest of us will watch ours.
Now to the real point. Robert's claim had 2 parts: that Spike
was on a journey, and that he began that journey in S4. MN's statement
does not disprove either of his claims; to the contrary, it supports
Robert.
Taking these in reverse order, the quote does not give any timing
in terms of seasons, so it can't contradict Robert's post. All
MN said was that Spike's role evolved over time, which I'm sure
Robert would agree with since that is what he said.
To the extent that we can infer timing from MN's comments, it
appears that, in fact, she refers to S4 as the beginning: "We
weren't sure how he would function in the group because he was
evil, and more or less as a function of story-telling we wanted
to make him less so, so he could be around the gang more. So,
we had him tracked by the government, and a chip is put in his
head, so he is unable to attack people. So for a long time he
was good by default. He was still able to hurt demons, his chip
didn't stop that, but he was fighting on the side of right because
he still liked to kill things. But slowly you start to have moral
questions. Is this a change in conditioning? Was the active fight
for good, did that start to make him seek out good?"
The last 3 sentences of this quote also support Robert's first
point, namely, that Spike was on a journey. His assertion finds
further support in the language you put in bold. The fact of evolution
over time is not inconsistent with being on a journey, it is inherent
in being on a journey.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Re: I think you've misinterpreted MN's comments --
Diana, 17:53:58 09/03/03 Wed
Really not going to get into the debate about authorial intent
and whether the writers know their own work better than we do.
Joss said that after Seeing Red, he was trying to get Spike and
Buffy to a place where she could trust him again. I think they
did a good job with that. Why does everything have to be love
or redemption? There are other stories to tell, stories that ME
didn't tell already.
The statement I was disagreeing with was ME put Spike on a journey.
This implies, to me and maybe I am wrong, that it was some conscious
decision to turn him into a hero eventually. I have seen nothing
to support this coming from any of the writers, especially in
regards to Season 4. They were just trying to figure out a way
to keep the character around. If you aren't talking about a deliberate
path to make Spike a hero, then his "journey" started
season 2.
And don't forget Jane is in there as well. Redemption and hero
isn't even the perspective the writers are going at until he has
a soul. How can the writers be turning Spike into a hero when
they didn't even think this was possible without a soul?
But who cares? Still a great story. Still a fun character. Points
that people connect to form a curve or an actual arc, does it
really matter which it is?
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Keeping Spike around -- Liam, 01:45:30 09/04/03
Thu
When I was watching season 4, I began to feel that the writers
were trying to find excuses to keep Spike around, making Buffy
and the Scoobies look dumb as a consequence, in the same way that
they accepted Anya despite her boasting about her murderous past.
In season 4, Spike was tolerated because he had a chip and couldn't
physically hurt humans. The Scoobies didn't seem to realise that
he could still plot against them with others, as he did with Adam.
Despite having evidence of what he did with Adam, they didn't
dust him.
Early in season 5, when he tried to get his chip out, attacking
Buffy and Riley, the writers came up with the 'Spike in love'
storyline as a new excuse for keeping him around. I began to get
a vague notion (partly proved right) that the writers liked the
character so much that they would eventually have him die doing
some heroic sacrifice for the love of Buffy.
Season 6 saw the excuse of Spike having a relationship with Buffy;
but, in my opinion, the only reasonable excuse for having Spike
around without him being dusted came in season 7, when he had
a soul.
Due to all this, I agree with you, Diana, that there was no conscious
effort to put Spike on a journey; the writers just came up with
excuses to justify keeping him around the Scoobies without being
dusted.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> Re: Keeping Spike around -- Claudia,
12:08:58 09/04/03 Thu
I don't think we will ever really know.
[> [> [> [> It's
good to see one of your posts, Robert. -- Sophist, 17:09:59
09/03/03 Wed
[> [> [> [> [>
Thank you! I've been away for awhile. -- Robert, 15:04:16
09/04/03 Thu
I became discouraged with the rancor of the post season discussion,
but I cannot stay away forever.
The passion in the fan base for the past two seasons has made
it difficult to discuss the show without excessive bitterness.
For me and a few others, the past two seasons have been the best.
And I fully acknowledge that for many others, they have been the
worst. When the discussion becomes too rancorous, I feel the need
to take a breather.
Best wishes,
Robert
TV guide(no
spoilers here), except for the well known angel one. -- JDP,
19:31:57 09/02/03 Tue
Hey All,
I just got the new TV guide and guess who is on the cover. None
over than DB and JM. Be careful though, because the article has
kind of BIG spoilers in it.
Just thought I'd let y'all know.
JDP
PS The guide also has a great article for Alias fans, albeit spoilers
again!
But pics of both Angel and Alias are great!
[> Re: TV guide article
(angel spoilers) -- CW, 12:13:00 09/03/03 Wed
Joss says of Cordelia, "I really don't know what was left
to do with her." Using that logic Xander should have stabbed
Willow to death in the last scene of BtVS six. After all what
was left to have her do except cast more spells, get another girlfriend,
and help Buffy and... Er, well Joss, ole buddy, you could have
at least woken Cordelia up.
It sounds from the article that the move to W&H was actually a
production move to cut costs. No more hotel lobby set, no more
room sets, no more hallway sets. I don't know how bringing SMG
in for a couple eps is going to help cut costs though.
[> [> Re: TV guide article
: Le Rouge et Le Noir -- Brian, 13:02:24 09/03/03 Wed
It was nice to see "the boys" on the cover of TV Guide.
It's about passion; it's about brooding; it's about a room and
perhaps some oil.
I'm ready for Season 5. Let the twists and turns begin!
[> [> Budgetary Concerns
+ a fashion note (new TV Guide and ANGEL S5 spoilers) -- cjl,
19:56:17 09/03/03 Wed
I have my calculator next to my keyboard. Let's see if we can
add this up...
Okay, subtract two regulars, and add one. (Marsters is probably
getting paid more than Carpenter, but less than Carpenter + Kartheiser.
Some savings there.)
W&H set vs. Hyperion. Don't know about the savings here. You've
got the W&H lobby, Angel's office, Fred's lab, and probably "personal"
spaces for Angel and Wes.
No Lilah. But add Mercedes for 17, and possibly Buffy for two
eps. That's a "wash" at best. Bringing the Buffster
in could also drain cash needed for other guest stars. Joss may
have to choose between bringing back Aly or Juliet (if ME and
Fox are even negotiating with either one).
They might have to cut back on SFX the way BtVS did in Seasons
6 and 7--which bothers me. I hope we don't get trapped in the
W&H offices the way we got trapped in the Summers house last
season.
And on a completely irrelevant, fashion-related note: Spike's
shirt on the TV guide cover (and inside)--what the hell is that?
It looks like a magenta crushed silk dress shirt. Not bad over
the black slacks, but looks weird with the platinum blonde 'do.
(Honorificus' fashion reports have completed polluted my brain,
haven't they?)
Dawn vs Jasmine
-- JBone, 20:12:05
09/02/03 Tue
Well, I can't take you in a fight or anything, even with the chip
in your head. But you do sleep. If you hurt my sister at all,
touch her... you're gonna wake up on
fire.
http://www.geocities.com/road2apocalypse/showtime.html
results
Post comments at Showtime, here, or email me.
[> Oh, screw Ms. Shiny-Happy
Power! It's not even a contest. -- HonorH, 20:32:14 09/02/03
Tue
The world's second-angstiest teen in no way falls for Jasmine's
lovey-dovey ways. "*So* totally not happening," yawns
Dawn. "And what's with your face?" Chagrined, Jasmine
decides to simply eat her. However, while that may be perfectly
okay for ordinary mortals, it's not so okay with Keys. In short,
Jasmine ends up getting absorbed by Dawn rather than the other
way around. "Nifty!" chirps Dawn before she skips off
to make herself a fluffernutter. Case closed.
[> Hee! I voted first! Dawn
is currently 100% victorious! -- Anneth, 20:40:11 09/02/03
Tue
This also required some hard thinkin' but in the end, I had to
vote for Dawnie. Jasmine may be/have been some sort of power,
but Dawn's got dander. (And I don't mean the flakey white stuff.)
I'd hate to see that dander up. Plus, that shot of Dawn in Chosen,
with the sword? That was scary stuff. Dawn could take ol' maggoty-face
any day of the month. "But," you gasp, "how will
she defeat Jasmine's thrall?" Thrall schmall, I say - Dawn's
a teenaged girl. Teenaged girls are enthralled only by
repeated viewings of The Princess Bride and many, many
Pixie Stix. Dawn victorious.
[> [> Ewww, will someone
more qualified please explain dander here -- Celebaelin, 05:07:54
09/03/03 Wed
[> [> [> ewww? huh? --
anom, 10:12:55 09/03/03 Wed
"Dawn's got dander. (And I don't mean the flakey white stuff.)
I'd hate to see that dander up."
Merriam-Webster online (m-w.com) gives these definitions for dander:
"1 : DANDRUFF; specifically : minute scales from hair, feathers,
or skin that may be allergenic
2 : ANGER, TEMPER "
Anneth specified she didn't mean the 1st kind, so what's the ewww?
Does dander have some other yucky meaning in British usage that
the rest of us are unaware of? Or has it picked up some meaning
in youth culture that people my age are unaware of?
[> [> [> [> Is
this a veiled reference to the fanfic-created Dander (D/X) 'ship?
-- cjl, 10:17:13 09/03/03 Wed
[> [> [> [> [>
Eeek! No! No Xawn! No flakes! Just temper! -- Anneth, 11:55:43
09/03/03 Wed
[> [> [> [> [>
[> As I said not really qualified to be categorical but...
-- Celebaelin, 12:37:25 09/03/03 Wed
I believe this word and phrase (perhaps originally phonetically
'dunder') originates on the Indian subcontinent and means, well,
penis frankly as far as I can establish. So the idea of Dawn having
dander, or indeed getting said dander 'up' leads to a whole chicks
with...(need I go on) scenario which I just don't want to think
about. Hence the ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
C
PS In addition to your Dandruff (well, not your dandruff
but y'know what I mean) and Dander/Dunder for Ruffled or Angry,
the Shorter Oxford gives 'the lees or dregs of molasses used to
ferment rum' also dander as in blunder, wander cf. DADDLE
1 to stroll, saunter, 2 to wander in talk; also to vibrate or
a fit of shivering also a calcined cinder. But no trace of dander/dunder
as a codename for Secret Squirrel if you catch my drift.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> oy...sorry i asked, on both counts! -- anom,
14:52:15 09/03/03 Wed
2 whole separate meanings I really didn't want to know about!
I suppose I might've been able to figure out the 'ship name, but
I was probably blocking out the possibility (understandably).
As for your suggested meaning, it's the first I've heard of it.
Although I doubt there's a connection to "dandruff"
(see below), it does cast a whole new light on "dunderhead,"
one that may even make more sense than the origin given by m-w.com:
"Etymology: perhaps from Dutch donder thunder + English
head; akin to Old High German thonar thunder --
more at THUNDER"...except for the fact that it's recorded
in English in the century before the English went a-conquering
in India.
"Dander" meaning "dandruff" may not be related
to what you're talking about. From m-w.com again: "Etymology:
probably from dand- (origin unknown) + -ruff, from
Middle English rove scabby condition, from Old Norse hrufa
scab; akin to Old High German hruf scurf, Lithuanian kraupus
rough"--whew. Didn't mean to get all lexicographical on ya.
But, y'know, I got curious, & besides, a little intellectual exercise
helps get my mind off repulsive topics like...damn.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> John Company -- Celebaelin, 16:39:35
09/03/03 Wed
The East India Company (popularly known as John Company), founded
by the Royal Charter of Queen Elizabeth I on December 31, 1600,
comprised the most powerful commercial enterprise of its day.
First recorded use of dunderhead 1625 according to the Shorter
Oxford.
The Dutch East India Company (Vereenigde Oostindische Compagnie
or VOC in Dutch, literally "United East Indies Company")
was established on March 20, 1602, when the government of the
Netherlands granted it a monopoly to trade with Asia. It is considered
the first company that issued shares.
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_East_India_Company
I think you may be on to something.
C
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> maybe we should write to the oed editors!
-- anom, 23:33:00 09/03/03 Wed
Of couse, they'll want citations, & actual evidence of the proposed
etymology...OK, maybe we shouldn't.
m-w.com also gives 1625 as the date of earliest use; pundit
& sahib date back to the 1670s & rajah to 1555!
So other words of (East) Indian origin were coming into use that
early in English. Hey, maybe I really am onto something! When
did that use of "dander," the one I don't want to think
about in relation to Dawn (too late!), 1st show up in English
('cause I can't find it)? Maybe that would bolster the case for
"dunderhead."
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> Dander (heh heh heh) -- Celebaelin,
05:03:51 09/04/03 Thu
Dander
A calcined cinder 1791
The lees of molases, ruffled or angry temper 1837
A saunter 1821
A fit of shivering 1877
To stoll or saunter 1600
To wander in talk, to vibrate 1724
dander = dandruff is mentioned but not dated
So, no recorded use of dander in English prior to 1600, and then
it means a relaxing walk in the park! Am I reaching? Well, yes,
but it makes some kind of sense to me. However to go on I'd have
to look at the history of trade with the East Indies (as opposed
to the West Indies ie the Carribbean btw) prior to the formation
of John Company. I'll have a gentle browse I guess, see what I
root up. Then we can move on to the related dandy/dandi (begins
as 'a boatman on the Ganges' Anglo-Ind. 1685 Hindi dandi
from dand staff, oar).
C
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> [> yes, please do! --
anom, 22:33:39 09/04/03 Thu
"I'll have a gentle browse I guess,..."
You mean a saunter? A dander? Sure, I'd love to see what you come
up with!
Nice to find a fellow etymology buff--& in this thread, yet!
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> hmm...wonder if 1 of these is related to... --
anom, 22:28:11 09/04/03 Thu
"...also dander as in blunder, wander cf. DADDLE 1 to stroll,
saunter,..."
..."skedaddle"? Origin unknown according to m-w.com
& the compact OED. My theory: it means to daddle so fast you
leave skid--uh, sked--marks. @>)
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> 16th Century links between England and India
(and skedaddle) -- Celebaelin, 06:17:31 09/05/03 Fri
Skedaddle, (my spell checker doesn't like that word incidentally)
1862 unknown origin, orig. US military slang.
Ski - daddle? Skey - daddle? Skedaddle. He who fights and runs
away lives to fight another day? Civil War stuff I guess. I well
remember my sainted father bouncing me on my knee as he sang the
marching song of the 17th East Kilbride Field Sanitation Engineers
'They aren't skid marks they're brown trousers' (to the tune of
I left my heart in San Francisco).
Since you're such a sucker for the history I know you'll just
be dying to read this lot, some of which may even be relevant.
The indigo plant grows in warm climates, in India and Asia and
South and Central America. Indigo was also once grown in parts
of the southern United States.
People who lived in Europe hundreds of years ago could make a
weak indigo dye from the woad plant, but the dye that came from
the indigo plant was much better. So, as you can imagine, indigo
became very valuable to the European traders who travelled East
to India and Asia in the 1500s and 1600s.
When traders first began bringing indigo back to Europe from India,
woad growers in Europe became upset. They wanted to protect their
industry from this new type of foreign dye. As a result, indigo
was banned from France and parts of Germany during the 1500s.
However, by the 1600s indigo was widely used throughout Europe.
Because indigo was so valuable, Spanish and French settlers started
indigo plantations in Central America. At some plantations, Indians
or black slaves were forced to do the work of tending the plants
and then removing the leaves so that they could be fermented and
turned into dye.
http://www.apl.com/boomerangbox/d110501.htm
Surat, in the 'mainland' part of Gujarat, was founded in the 12th
century by the Parsis, five centuries after they came to the area
to escape persecution in Persia. By the 1500s it had developed
into a successful trading centre, and was raided and destroyed
a number of times by the Portuguese. In the late 1500s it fell
to Akbar and became a prosperous mercantile centre under his influence.
Early in the next century the British received permission from
the Moghuls to trade in the area, making Surat their first mercantile
outpost in India. They soon routed the Portuguese though two small
areas, Damen and Diu, remained as Portuguese enclaves within Gujarat
till 1961 when they were forcibly taken over by the Indian government.
The French and the Dutch who followed the British into the area
had their warehouses and properties sacked by the Marathas, and
only the British endured.
http://www.indax.com/gujarat.html
November 1579 Sir Francis Drake of England, after raiding Spanish
ships and ports in America, arrives at Ternate. Sultan Babullah,
who also hated the Spanish, pledges friendship to England.
1580 Drake visits Sulawesi and Java, on the way back to England.
1587 Sir Thomas Cavendish of England visits Java.
1591 Sir James Lancaster of England reaches Aceh and Penang, but
his mission is a failure.
1604 English East India Company expedition under Sir Henry Middleton
visits Ternate, Tidore, Ambon, and Banda.
1611 English begin setting up many posts in the Indies, including
at Makassar, Jepara, Aceh and Jambi.
1615 English build warehouse at Jayakerta.
1618 December Sultan of Banten encourages English to drive Dutch
out of Jayakerta. Coen leaves for Maluku to muster ships and soldiers.
1667 English give up claims to Banda in exchange for Manhattan
Island in America.
http://www.gimonca.com/sejarah/sejarah02.html
1578-- Sir Francis Drake (England) makes another voyage around
the world, establishes England in India
http://www.csdl.tamu.edu/FLORA/Wilson/pp/s99/spices.htm
Europeans in India and the Economy
Following the Portuguese, in 1542 the first Jesuit missionary,
Francis Xavier, arrived in India, at Goa, but within a few years
he left for Japan, disappointed that the Indians were, in his
words, "without inclination to virtue" and little interested
in biblical instruction. He left behind a small community of Portuguese
and Indian Christians, and, drawing from Portuguese experiences
in India, in northern Europe the view spread that Indians were
heathenish and cunning.
In the early 1600s, the Dutch and British came to India. Being
Protestants and competitors, they were harassed by the Jesuits
and Portuguese. In 1611, the Dutch East India Company built a
factory in India, at Pulicat. The Dutch and British drove out
the Portuguese, a British fleet defeating the Portuguese off the
coast of India in 1612. The Mughals, without a navy, had looked
to the Portuguese to protect the ship that took Muslim Indians
on their annual pilgrimage to Mecca, and now they turned to the
English for this protection. This was accompanied by an increase
in trade with England, dominated by the British East India Company,
which built a factory at Surat in 1619.
Sailors, traders, diplomats and adventurers flocked to India.
Europeans were allowed to roam about. They brought to India technical
advances, such as a hand-driven pump to transfer water. And they
brought technical skills. Some of the Europeans set up shop, and
some were hired by Indians. Mughal artillery was not keeping pace
with European developments, and the Mughal government hired Europeans
as artillerymen -- men who were often deserters for the East India
Company ships and garrisons.
In the first thirty years of Alamgir's reign (1658-1707), European
demand for Indian textiles rose steeply, while India in return
received a few luxury items, precious metals, a modest amount
of woolens, tin, lead and copper from Britain, and the Dutch brought
spices from Southeast Asia. The two British and Dutch trading
companies were buying their goods largely with silver and gold,
on average 34 tons of silver and a half ton of gold every year.
http://www.fsmitha.com/h3/h23-mug.html
Not directly relevant to the 1500s but of interest
Dandi: Situated on the coastline and well known as a salt centre,
Dandi has acquired a name in history after the famous 'Dandi March
Salt Satyagraha' launched by Gandhiji in March, 1930 AD.
While overtly the Dandi march purported to protest against the
hateful Salt Tax levied by the British, the underlying purpose
was to kindle the spark of Civil Disobedience and thereby attain
independence.
On a warm April morning in 1930, Gandhi and his 78 followers marched
241 miles to Dandi and formally breached the Salt Law, an act
that would go down in the annals of history as the first salvo
to be fired against the British Empire.
http://www.indiantravelportal.com/gujarat/surat/
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> so the question is... -- anom,
10:47:28 09/05/03 Fri
"This was accompanied by an increase in trade with England,
dominated by the British East India Company, which built a factory
at Surat in 1619. Sailors, traders, diplomats and adventurers
flocked to India. Europeans were allowed to roam about."
...would any of this make it plausible that "dunderhead"
was of Indian origin & entered the English language by 1625, after
only 6 years of "roaming about" after the British established
a major foothold there--or 13 years if you date it from the trade
increase that accompanied the British protection of the hajj?
A few other comments:
"Since you're such a sucker for the history...."
More the linguistic development than the historical aspect in
& of itself. It was when I got interested in linguistics that
I 1st regretted not having liked history more. (I blame lousy,
boring history teachers.)
"Indigo was also once grown in parts of the southern United
States."
Yep. It was used to dye Levi's jeans. I know this not from studying
history but from watching Julie Dash's wonderful film Daughters
of the Dust, about the Gullah people of the Sea Islands off
the southeastern U.S. coast, where indigo dyeing was an important
part of the economy (at least it was ~100 years ago, when the
film takes place).
"1611 English begin setting up many posts in the Indies,
including at Makassar, Jepara, Aceh and Jambi."
That would be Macassar, where hair oil was imported from, & its
use became so popular that it became necessary to put small cloths--"antimacassars"--over
the backs of chairs to absorb the oil from people's hair so it
wouldn't stain the upholstery...right?
"1615 English build warehouse at Jayakerta."
Is this Jakarta? That would be expanding your scope beyond India.
Then there's this little gem: "1667 English give up claims
to Banda in exchange for Manhattan Island in America."
Wow! I never knew that! (Told you I wasn't really a history buff.)
No more New Amsterdam, huh? OK, this is really cool!
Well, not such a history buff, but the Dandi Salt march still
reminds me of the Boston Tea Party. To think all this fantastic
digression started w/an "Ewww!"
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> The British in India begins with
Drake's circumnavigation start 1578, India 1580 -- Celebaelin,
19:19:30 09/05/03 Fri
Although it seems Drake approached the East Indies (India and
the spice islands) from the East, the more usual route was from
the West, via the Cape of Good Hope and Zanzibar. Rounding the
Horn as well is just showing off!
I think the browse was worth while, I learnt some stuff (not least
of which was the Manhattan thing).
C
[> Go Dawny!!!!! --
Rochefort, 20:52:41 09/02/03 Tue
This one pulled me out of my non-voting streak. GO DAWN!!
Rochefort
[> Re: Dawn vs Jasmine
-- Apophis, 21:32:31 09/02/03 Tue
Now, on paper, Jasmine has an easy win. On the other hand, Communism
works on paper, so paper is obviously not a trustworthy medium.
What it all comes down to is this: while Jasmine can enthrall
large amounts of people with only the power of her voice, Dawn
can do That Thing with Her Hips, which, when properly harnessed,
can level mountains and lay waste to cities. Besides, anyone who
threatens to kill Spike in his sleep is golden in my book. In
the immortal words of Abraham Lincoln, wholesome teenage cuteness
with a sword beats facial maggots in this, the land of the free
and the home of the brave.
[> Re: Dawn vs Jasmine
-- Celebaelin, 05:22:13 09/03/03 Wed
Dawn is a rabidly self-centred, kleptomaniac, pure energy f**k-monster
in the making with the finely honed musculature of a seasoned
old pro, Jasmine is just as sweet as pie. So obviously Dawn wins.
[> Ex-PTB vs. glowing ball
of green energy --- this could get complicated... -- Caira,
07:13:09 09/03/03 Wed
... but, really, who cares about a few funny-coloured fireworks
that'll probably be on some plane us mere mortals can't conceive
of anyway? Far more interesting would be something we know Dawn
is good at and Jasmine showed a latent talent for in Peace Out...
time for another WHINING CONTEST!
Now, on the surface Dawn may have all the advantages; years of
experience in the art, abandonment issues up the wazoo, hell,
teenage girl, but... nobody can wail, bemoan and beseech
quite like a god, especially one who's just lost her favourite
powers. Ol' maggot-face just goes on and on and on about all that's
been lost while Dawn complains herself into a puddle of shiny
green goo. Jasmine in a come-from-behind upset.
[> [> Well, if Glory
proved anything-- -- HonorH, 08:22:13 09/03/03 Wed
--it's that gods can, indeed, out-whine just about anybody. However,
I think even Jasmine might have a hard time out-whining the Geek
Trio.
[> It's a blistering, no
holds barred battle.... -- cjl, 07:24:25 09/03/03 Wed
....between Jasmine's gleaming smile and Dawnie's hypnotically
shiny hair. The energy field surrounding the combatants warps
reality and melts any human male within 250 km into a pool of
hormonal ooze. In the end, the combination of Dawn's barely post-adolescent
pulchritude and dimensions-spanning Key power and Jasmine's divine
beauty brings the world to its knees, and we're all the better
for it. The winner? Sorry, JBone, I left the contest behind about
three sentences ago...
[> Re: Dawn vs Jasmine --
MaeveRigan, 07:40:27 09/03/03 Wed
Somewhere near the end of season six, I found myself reluctantly
revising my views on Dawn. Up till then, I would have been perfectly
happy if she had been sucked into another dimension, or
eaten by Jasmine. Dawn the extraordinary is now one of my favorite
characters, so I'm going to have to vote for her. Besides, Miss
"Watcher, Jr." would have figured out the "keys"
to defeating Jasmine about two episodes before Angel, Wes, and
Fred. Goodbye, whatever-her-true-name-is!
[> [> Re: Dawn vs Jasmine
-- jane, 09:47:21 09/03/03 Wed
Sorry, Jasmine. Dawn is so over that shiney happy crap! No way
a former PTB could win against the former Key. Dawn just smiles
and says, "even the PTBs sleep...." End of story.
Vlad the Impaler
-- BuffyJunkie, 06:54:19 09/03/03 Wed
How about that, just had to mention it. Was at the video store
and I noted a movie entitled "Dark Prince: the True Story
of Dracula". Was rather amused to note that the fellow who
plays Vlad was the same guy who plays Dracula in Buffy 5x01, Rudolph
Martin.
Someone's probably brought it up already, it was made in 2000.
Still, a spot of mild Buffy-related amusement.
[> It aired around the same
time as his BtVS stint... -- Sofdog, 11:13:57 09/03/03
Wed
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