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Who's Gonna Open... (Angel Season 3 Spoilers) -- Sharfholz, 08:32:00 09/11/02 Wed

Who's gonna open Angel's watery coffin? I think,in keeping with Joss tradition (AKA--those finicky Powers That Be) it'll be the last person Angel expects. I nominate Wes. I figure getting Angel out will be the only way to even begin to make-up for the child-napping and repair the rift. But how is this for a plot twist, Angel will have had some time to simmer down there,and he has been depleted of all blood whatsoever, and he will have likely gone a little mad from sensory deprivation torture. So Wes opens the coffin, and Angel inflicts the one punishment worse than death, he turns Wes. Wyndham, the Vampire, Price. The knowledge of a watcher, the strength of the undead, at the bidding of evil, Say Goodbye To Hollywood.

[> Angel Season 4 Preview (Warning! HUGE Freakin' Spoiler!)) -- cjl, 08:40:58 09/11/02 Wed

I was watching the WB the other night for whatever reason (couldn't have been the programming; was a N.Y. Mets game on?), and I caught an ANGEL commercial. It looked like Wes was leaning over a box of some kind, when a hand shoots out and grabs him by the throat.

I think that settles the "who's going to rescue Angel" mystery.

But it starts up the "who's going to rescue WES" mystery.

[> The answer was aired in a promo during this week's ep -- Sofdog, 09:04:57 09/11/02 Wed

They did a little new Sunday promo and actually showed who frees Angel in the clip. Couldn't believe they burst one of the biggest specs of the summer.

[> [> Re: The answer was aired in a promo during this week's ep -- leslie, 09:18:58 09/11/02 Wed

We still don't know how Wes finds him. Out deep-sea fishing?

[> [> [> Re: The answer was aired in a promo during this week's ep -- Freki, 10:19:53 09/11/02 Wed

I'm pretty sure I saw Justine on the deck of the boat in the promo, so I imagine she's involved somehow. We don't know *why* Wes goes looking for him, though. I thought Wes would have been happy to have Angel at the bottom of the ocean.

[> [> [> [> Re: The answer was aired in a promo during this week's ep -- Sergio, 10:30:16 09/11/02 Wed

I thought that was Lilah. not Justine which makes alot more sense. (though less about knowing where to find Angel)

[> [> [> [> [> Re: The answer was aired in a promo during this week's ep -- acesgirl, 10:53:56 09/11/02 Wed

I don't think the promo answered anything definitively. Angel's been in that box a long time and I imagine his brain is working overtime. It could just be a dream or a hallucination.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: The answer was aired in a promo during this week's ep -- Sofdog, 13:34:34 09/11/02 Wed

Looked pretty clear to me. It looks like Wes pulls him out the same night he went down. Of course, I'm extrapolating from two quick flashes.

And Lilah, knowing where to find Angel makes perfect sense. Wolfram & Hart surveils him constantly. They did stage a landing at the drive-in.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Earlier Press Release -- meritaten, 17:58:53 09/11/02 Wed

Wasn't there an earlier press release stating that Angel is down there for the whole summer? ...and that he frees himself when some of the welding fails?

ATPoBtVS board 9-11-01 -- Masquerade, 09:08:26 09/11/02 Wed

Being someone who doesn't watch the news, especially in the morning, I didn't hear about the tragedies of Sept 11, 2001 until I got to work and went to visit the ATPoBtVS board. Yep, I heard about it here first.

We may spend a lot of time talking about our favorite fantasy shows, but last year today, we spent a lot of time talking about grim reality.

Here's the archives for 9/11/01

http://www.ivyweb.net/btvs/board/archives/sep2_p.html#21

[> Re: ATPoBtVS board 9-11-01 -- Rob, 09:18:05 09/11/02 Wed

I wish I had been able to get on-line to talk to you guys on 9/11. It probably would have helped me cope a lot. But the internet provider of the office I work in was located at the WTC, so I had no computer access all day...and then when I got home, my cable internet access was out, too.

I don't think I'll ever forget what a scary day that was. I had this fear in the pit of my stomach that the world was going to end. Near where I live is the infamous Indian Point nuclear power plant...and all I could think all day, when there were reports that there were more hijacked planes, that someone would fly into the power plant and knock out the entirety of New York.

What a strange, surreal, terrifying day that was...

Rob

[> Re: ATPoBtVS board 9-11-01 -- celticross, 09:38:31 09/11/02 Wed

Whoa...memories... I wasn't a regular poster here a year ago, so I really didn't think to check this board that day. But reading everyone's reactions...it opened a floodgate of memories. How cold it was at work as we listened to the radio, how students were wandering campus looking stunned and bewildered, how utterly beautiful the weather was, how it felt like we'd all stepped into an alternate reality. I think those are memories that will always stay sharp in my mind.

[> Re: ATPoBtVS board 9-11-01 -- mundusmundi, 10:08:01 09/11/02 Wed

Ugh, what a horrible day that was. Your board made things more bearable though, Masq. Sure, it gave our trolls an outlet for their speen-venting hijinkery. (Incidentally, where are Scott & Co. these days? If OnM's recent CMotW didn't coax them out, then I'd venture to guess they've dug holes deeper than al-Quaeda.) And I learned that tossing out a throwaway Joseph Campbell comment regarding the iconography of the Towers, even if directly quoted from The Power of Myth and clearly addressed to Dedalus, is apparently a big no-no. But this place was still an invaluable touchstone in those few weeks leading up to Buffy's "rebirth." (Or was it a resurrection? Ah, those were the days.:)

[> Re: ATPoBtVS board 9-11-01 -- Cactus Watcher, 10:37:46 09/11/02 Wed

I don't keep up with the news during the day either. Learned the bad news late in the afternoon. I didn't get on line till the 12th, because the internet ties up long distance phone capabilities that I figured people with relatives in the affected areas really needed. It was a fine thing to see how many people outside the US got on to express their concern about our friends in NY and elsewhere... Another of those days we won't forget.

[> Re: ATPoBtVS board 9-11-01 -- Drizzt, 11:28:13 09/11/02 Wed

Tragedy put my minor problems in perspective.
I heard about the tragedy here first also.
Sigh. Has been a whole year since then.
Is the world better 1 year later?
My life is not better now...
Enjoy life; it is short.
"Live for the moment"
The future is...?
Yay for life:)
Drizzt

[> [> Re: ATPoBtVS board 9-11-01 -- Purple Tulip, 11:38:03 09/11/02 Wed

I wish that I had been a poster here when 9/11 occured, but, alas, I wasn't even watching Buffy then. I didn't find out what had happened until around 10:00 a.m. that morning because I had had an 8:30 class, and when I got to my 10:00 broadcasting class, I found out. We listened to the radio for over an hour b/c we didn't have a tv in the classroom. It was absolutely horrifying. I go to school in central New York, and am originally from upstate NY near the Canadian border which is ver close to a major military base AND a nuclear power plant, so this just all seemed to hit way too close to home and was so incredibly scary. And there's nothing worse than being far away from your family and loved ones during a time like that and not being able to go home to be with them. But I am so proud to be a New Yorker, and even prouder still to be a United States citizen. Thanks to all who posted that day, so that people like me who missed out can go back and read your thoughts.

[> Re: ATPoBtVS board 9-11-01 - more reality -- Rendyl, 11:56:47 09/11/02 Wed

This morning a Northwest airlines flight from Memphis to Las Vegas made an unsceduled landing at the Municipal airport in Fort Smith, Arkansas. Whether National Guard fighter jets escorted it or not is still unclear.

(The local coverage says yes and had footage of them on the ground. The few national news agencies that are actually reporting it say no)

A local radio station (KISR 93) broke the story after other stations had reported the landing as "weather related".

You can get a fairly detailed account of it on Yahoo, but the other news agencies are hours behind in their information.

The local stations (tv and radio) reported one man went into the bathroom of the plane with his shaving kit, then refused to come out. Three other men (news reports are unclear on whether it is 2 or 3) were acting suspiciously. One kept pacing the aisle. They would not return to seats when asked and eventually wound up locked in the bathroom with the first man.

The plane was evacuated, no one was injured, and the men were taken aside for questioning. An hour ago (when I last spoke to my Mom who is an editor at a local paper) the INS had just arrived.

I understand that the focus of todays news is on the 9/11 of last year. Remembrances and memorials for all those who died and the families they left behind are important. My uncle works at the Pentagon and my aunt is a nurse in DC. We waited hours to find out if they were okay. (Luckily they were.)

I just wish the national news services would at least report this. It does not need to take away from memorial coverage but I think people do need to know this is happening. It may turn out to be some poor guy with an upset stomach and very little understanding of english or it may be something much more. I just think when no one knows it gives a false sense of safety and security.

Ren

[> Re: ATPoBtVS board 9-11-01 -- meritaten, 12:54:39 09/11/02 Wed

My parents had always talked about knowing exactly where they where and what they were doing when they heard about JFK. Now I understand how they felt. I will forever remember the exact details of where I was and what I was doing when I learned of the attack. I also remmber the process of assimilating the fact that a plane hitting the Towers was not a tragic accident, but a deliberate attack. Then I heard about the plane in SW Pa, where I have family. I remember tryig to get through to them to see if they were ok, as I had no details on where the plane had gone down. I remember calling my parents and having to tell them that our country was under attack. The process continued. I remember every detail. ...and yes, it was a beautiful, pristine day here.

I live near an Air Force base. It was strange not hearing the constant roar of planes overhead. Then, when they started flying again, there was the deep, intense fear whenever I heard a plane. I still get flashes of fear when they fly low with their loud engines.

[> Re: ATPoBtVS board 9-11-01 -- Caroline, 14:12:27 09/11/02 Wed

Thank you for bringing this Masq. I remember that day all too well. I live and work in DC and a year ago I was preparing to go to work and learnt of the tragedy as I was waiting for the weather update. I saw the second plane hit and remembered thinking 'How am I expected to go to work after this has happened?' When I arrived at work and told my colleagues, everyone thought I was playing a practical joke and didn't believe me. It was only after we turned on NPR that people believed it. We wandered around in a maze, there was a rumour that the Executive office Building next to the White House was on fire (I work a block up from the White House). Several of us went to investigate but found that federal employees in buildings around us were being evacuated. As we got back to our offices, we heard about the Pentagon and everyone was stunned. Some people left immediately to go home and find their loved ones, and when the evacuation order came through there was a 4 hr traffic jam downtown.

I decided not to take metro and walked home. A 50 minute walk took almost 2 hours because of the detours I had to take around the White House, and the Capitol and House Office buildings. Secret Service men were in jeans and sneakers and uncombed hair looking harrowed and stressed, not like their usual buttoned-down, well-groomed selves. We walked home knowing there were still planes in the air, not knowing whether they were aimed for the White House or the Capitol. People were crying and praying and trying to support each other. There were no cell phone or landlines, they were all busy. I got home hoping that my family in Australia had gone to bed without hearing the news. Little did I know they stayed up all night and had tried to get through to me repeatedly, being unable to do so for over 6 hours from hearing the news.

It was a harrowing time to be here, to drive past the pentagon the following weekend and see the destruction. It just doesn't seem real on TV. I had to pull over to the side of I-395 because I was crying so hard and a police car stopped to check me out. When the officer saw me, he started crying too and talked to me until I felt calm enough to drive on. And then I saw the Pentagon close up from route 110, where the destruction was only about 100 feet from the road. I still can't go past the Pentagon without a twinge. I can't imagine how much worse New Yorkers must feel as I have assiduously avoided downtown New York in the 3 visits I have made in the last year.

It was then that I made the decision to become an American citizen (I have a greencard and must admit I didn't come here voluntarily!) and I am currently in the process of gathering all my paperwork together. While I recognize that there are faults about America just like any other country, I find so many things here admirable and, even if I do decide to leave one day, I would always like to remain connected to that.

[> [> Didn't want to break the mood till everyone had a chance to have a say. -- Cactus Watcher, 06:18:25 09/13/02 Fri

But, must admit I didn't come here voluntarily! sounds like a story worth hearing. I get weird images like 'I got on the airplane for Perth, fell asleep, and the next thing I knew I was in Rockville, Maryland.' I presume you had to come for work. Care to share?

We Americans are terrible about 'tooting our own horns,' but it's always humbling for those of us who were born here to hear stories of those who choose to become US citizens.

[> [> [> I used to have trouble getting OUT of Rockville, Maryland -- d'Herblay, 06:58:13 09/13/02 Fri

[> [> [> Okay, I'll share... -- Caroline, 08:24:25 09/13/02 Fri

I fell madly in love with an American (whom I met in London while I was doing the usual Aussie yearlong backpacking trip around the world) and the only way we could be together in the same country was to get married, immigration laws being what they are (and, I don't recommend the commuting costs the US to Sydney). That was an easy enough decision to make (she says, skipping over the agonies and sleepless nights but he was Mr. Absolutely Right) but the question of where to live was more difficult (she says understatedly!). Eventually, after lots of discussion and talk about compromise and what was best for both of us etc, we decided it made more sense for both our careers and our relationship to be in America (my late husband worked on the Hill as a congressional aide and he could only do that from DC) and I found a fabulous job at an international institution, filled with foreigners like me, so I didn't feel so out of place.

The first year here was quite difficult. Not only was I looking for a new job I was looking for new friends and I unknowingly offended people (Americans) when I was just taking the piss and I was misunderstood by many - not just because of my accent but also because Americans and Australians, while alike in many ways, do actually come from a completely different mental context, set of assumptions etc. But I did gradually become accustomed, learnt lots of lesson about communication and slowly began to feel as though America was my home. It crept up on me really slowly. I would start talking about 'our government', 'our city council'. I learnt to drive on the other side of the road (but I still don't remember which way to look crossing the street), I learnt the non-metric system of weights and measures (except I still don't understand ounces), I learnt to ski on snow, not water and I learnt to live through sub-freezing temperatures (thank the goddess for thermal underwear). When visiting family in Sydney, I would refer to America as 'home'.

I have found many advantages to living here, most particularly the lack of the 'tall poppy syndrome'. In Australia, anyone who rises above the rest is reviled and cut down (hence tall poppy syndrome) whereas in America, one is congratulated and admired for one's hard work. It's great to live in a place where one is applauded for taking risks and chasing dreams rather than being ridiculed. Don't get me wrong, I still see lots of problems here (the Pinky and the Brain episode about US foreign policy was hilarious and accurate!) and there are many things I love about Australia still but September 11 crystalized my slowly growing sense of identity as an American. From that, it was a short step to consider citizenship. This is why I love that Whitman line about 'I contain multitudes'. This is the fifth country I've lived in and my third national identity. It's kinda cool.

And I didn't end up in Rockville, Maryland (phew! strip mall suburbia) I ended up on Capitol Hill, less than 10 blocks from the capitol, on a quiet street in a historical neighbourhood with lots of trees, and a thriving sense of community. I know I won't be here forever - I'm starting to get a bit restless - but it's great for now and I'm really enjoying it. Before I leave, I want to do a road trip across all of America and really get know the places I've only heard about. But I won't leave before the end of season 7 - now you know how much of a Buffy fan I am!

[> Re: ATPoBtVS board 9-11-01 -- ponygirl, 14:50:36 09/11/02 Wed

It's strange thinking back a year ago, it's rare that you can precisely pinpoint a moment where everything changed completely. The gap between then and now is staggering.

For me, it was two days after a huge joint Logan's Run party that I and a dozen of my 30 year old friends had thrown. We had unfortunately had the tag line "Last Day" on all the invites and t-shirts, so they're kind of hard to look at now. I had a few hours before work so I was planning to watch a movie on cable. For some reason I decided to flip through the channels. It was just after the first plane hit.

I remember calling up my brother's fiance who has family in Long Island and a sister who lives in Manhattan. She'd only caught a bit of it on the news and really wasn't grasping the magnitude. I had to cut off her attempts to chat and tell her to go watch tv.

Went to my job and had a surreal few hours of trying to deal with theatre patrons wanting to buy tickets while I tried to listen to the radio. It was almost five hours before I remembered that I knew someone who worked in the WTC. A group of his friends in Toronto was gathering in one of my closest friend's apartments, assuming the worst.

By the end of the day they'd heard from our friend. He'd overslept, and had come out of the subway just as the first plane hit. He'd stayed on the street, saw some things that he still won't talk about, stayed until the second plane, then he turned and ran.

We all went to a bar and drank to him and to the world. Now it's a year later, I have a completely different (and better) job, the same friends, and I just got back from the New York wedding of my brother. It's a weird mixture in me of the bitter and the sweet thinking back over all that happened this past year. Hope that the next anniversary sees a more peaceful world.

[> Re: ATPoBtVS board 9-11-01 -- Lyonors, 15:08:22 09/11/02 Wed

I have been struggling all day here at work. Reading these other experiences is so helpful to me. I was still in bed after having decided to go to my internship late last 9/11, and my mother woke me up twice before I believed her that all of this was going on. My brother, who had been living abroad for several years had just come home on 9/4. Circumstances nearly had him coming home a week later, on 9/11. I went to college in a sleepy northern Virgnina town about 60 miles outside of DC, right in the landing pattern of Dulles Airport. I couldnt reach any of my friends or boyfriend in VA for hours. It was awful, what with all the news about a phantom plane circling Dulles. They in turn were in near hysteria trying to reach me, because I live in Pittsburgh, and the inital reports about flight 93 said Pittsburgh...I really didnt deal well with everything, it got to the point where I couldnt watch any of the footage without becoming physically sick. I wouldnt let myself watch it, with the promise to myself that before I could see anything else, I would go to NYC and see the site of the WTC. Which I did in June. For those of you who havent seen the 80 foot deep hole the size of the entire downtown of Pittsburgh, it is a totally surreal experience. I could feel a palpable difference on my skin when I got within 10 blocks of the site. The very air clung to me. I went to the now famous church accross the street, in June when I went, all of the rememberences were still attached to the fence. The most personally touching thing that I saw on that wall was a pair of pointe shoes from a daughter to her father. She had written a letter to him on them, he had been the reason she was dancing and why she never stopped. This touched me so deeply because I work with pointe shoes every day at my job at the ballet. They seemed so mundane to me until that very moment, when they carried those words of sorrow and love across the great divide from living daughter to passed father. Even though visiting the WTC site was one of the hardest things I have ever done, I will forever be stronger for it. It made my understanding of such a huge event so much more real.

Lyonors

[> Re: ATPoBtVS board 9-11-01 -- redcat, 17:14:41 09/11/02 Wed

Here in the middle of what is often called "the American Lake," the north Pacific, we are 6,000
miles from Ground Zero, six hours behind those who mourn today in New York, Washington,
Pennsylvania. Last year, on that awful day, I was awake at 4:06 am, our time, when the first
plane hit, but I didn't turn on the television until after I got out of the shower, which was just in
time to watch the second plane slam into the second tower. I was glued to the TV, watching in
horror as the story unfolded, waiting until the last minute to leave the house and go into the city
to teach my 7:30am "Principles of American Government" class at a small local college. Like
everyone else going to their early morning jobs here in Honolulu, I didn't know if America was
at war or if Washington still stood, or what effect all of this would have on us here, a chain of
islands with 30+ military bases, with thousands of nuclear weapons stored on land and in
submarines just off-shore, islands America has claimed for its own for over a hundred years,
islands that suddenly became indelibly American on that morning as flags sprouted on houses
and cars, as people cried in each other arms for a nation's innocence lost, as 4-hour-long lines
formed at Red Cross blood donation stations, even though people knew that the chances of
getting the blood to New York, with all air traffic stopped, was an impossibility.

My students in that first early-morning class were a mix of recent immigrants, first generation
children of immigrants, adults with families and jobs trying to earn their BAs by taking classes
before work, military personnel from three branches of the service, local kids just out of high
school and a pregnant young mom trying to get a few required credits out of the way before
her baby came. In all, they were 38 folks just trying to get by, get ahead, get an education.
But also 38 folks who'd just that week read the Declaration of Independence and the US
Constitution -- the whole thing -- because that's what I'd assigned them to read for the second
week of class. So that morning, not knowing if we would be evacuated from our campus,
which is within six miles of Pearl Harbor, not knowing if our friends and loved ones in the
military would be called to duty that day, not knowing if we would walk out of that room into a
world at war, we carefully worked our way through the Constitution, article by article, section by
section, clause by clause. Under the circumstances, no one thought it was boring at all.

A year later, as I write this, it's the middle of a rainy, overcast day here in Hawai'i and I've just
returned home from doing a prayer and blessing ritual at the small "alternative spiritual
products" shop (yoga mats, crystals, Feng Shui mirrors, Tarot cards, etc.) where I've worked
part-time, off and on, for more than 15 years. Our small ceremony at the shop was meant to
honor and remember those who died, and to rededicate each of us who work there to the
service of the planet and its peoples. We are as mixed as any other group here in Hawai'i or
maybe anyplace in America - we are Japanese, Hawaiian, Hapa-Haole-Korean, Hong Kong
Chinese, a white girl originally from Minnesota, a Black woman from Jamaican and her white
husband from Louisiana (whose soft Southern accent stands out as we chant), and me, a local
haole pagan who acts as lead chanter today, mostly because its my turn and because I can
chant strong even while I cry. My tears fill the malachite bowl of ala'e salt water I hold during
the ritual, they mingle with the tears of those whose cheeks I kiss as we end our prayers and
hug each other tight. We may be far away from where such pain came down a year ago, but
we are affected just the same. We mourn for those lost, and pray for those left behind, and
are grateful for each other and for the rain that cleanses the earth as we chant a blessing and
together ask for healing for ourselves and for our world. And under the circumstances, no one
walking by and seeing us at this work seemed to think it was silly at all.

In perfect love, in perfect trust, blessed be.

[> Re: ATPoBtVS board 9-11-01 -- Dariel, 20:11:15 09/11/02 Wed

I was at home in Brooklyn that morning, and a friend called to check on me and tell me the news. I tuned the televsion in to the sight of a burning tower. The announcer kept saying that the other tower had collapsed, but I thought that this was just absurd and that I could see it behind the smoke. I called my parents, instinctively knowing that communication was about to get difficult. I had no trouble getting through. My mother and I watched the second tower collapse together, on TV screens 3,000 miles apart.

I was bewildered and numb that day, but glad to be in Brooklyn, where I felt relatively safe. I spent 2 days glued to the TV set, which in hindsight wasn't too smart. But I couldn't look away. Fortunately, my television was only picking up CBS, which, like the NY Times, showed a minimum of the more gruesome images.

After that first day, I found myself walking around in hyper alert mode. Some survival instinct must have kicked in, and I was ready for fight or flight. It took me several days to get back on a subway to make the trip back into Manhattan. That's where my friends were, though. We huddled together and traded stories of where we'd been and what we'd seen, and somehow that made us feel better.

I felt this amazing kinship with my fellow New Yorkers for the first time. We'd all had the crap scared out of us, and suddenly treasured life and each other. We smiled at strangers, said "excuse me" when we brushed against someone, and slowed down our frenetic pace, for awhile. I had forgotten about that time until this morning, when I boarded the subway for work, and realised that all of passengers must be thinking about the same thing. That we could all be nervous and sad today, together.

[> A friend sent me this link today...... -- Rufus, 21:16:32 09/11/02 Wed

If you are sensitive you may find some of the images hard to look at........

www.politicsand protest.org

It's a tribute to those lost on 9/11.

[> Re: ATPoBtVS board 9-11-01 -- fresne, 22:58:20 09/11/02 Wed

The sky was blue today, as it was a year ago this day. That fall warmth with just a touch of electric crispness underneath. The earth turning. Days growing short. Halloween's just around the corner. The city (s.f.) looked peaceful in a distant from the other side of the bay sort of way, as it did then.

A year ago I went to an on-line list to check that day's fictional analysis and read what had to be a hoax. Turned on the t.v. and saw that it wasn't.

The world turned topsy turvy and even one year away it's still too soon to see what the ripples will be. Some are obvious. Some lie quiet beneath the surface. Waiting. Flashing at the sound of areoplane or the sight of a faded flag hanging from an underpass.

Last year and a day, I went to work excited over my upcoming vacation. Sad I wasn't going to be home for the Buffy premiere, but you know vacation. I'm fairly certain I burbled. And then the world shifted. Last year to the day I went to work because terrorists weren't going to stop my world. I was sent home
because it seems they were. Sitting on the ferry, people crying, listening to the news from a continent away.

Knowing myself to be an American in a way that I never understood before. Previously it had always puzzled me when people referred to America in the monolithic sense, rather than 50 states, rural and city, regional grievances, varying concentrations of varying immigration waves. But yeah, America.

Today I wore my red, white and blue skirt to work. Read everyone's words here as I did last year. Re-reading last year's words. At some point today my office had a moment of silence. Odd to have to figure out the logistics of a moment of silence, but when you have call centers in 3 times zones everything's logistics.

Last year that necessary silence was unimagined; the skirt still shapeless fabric, left over on some store shelf from the 4th of July. Now it's hand stitched patriotism because I can't give blood and at the time I couldn't think what else to do. Although, I suppose it would be indicative of things to admit that I started it on the great American road trip in September and only finished it at Neil Gaiman's Coraline reading in July.

Last year I was here, reading other people's posts, watching the news, staring into space as thoughts fought to gather. So, as the day draws to a close,

[> Re: ATPoBtVS board 9-11-01 -- Scroll, 06:44:47 09/12/02 Thu

I wasn't a regular on this board this time last year, but reading all your posts now has allowed me to glimpse what it must have been like, in New York, in America, on this board. I don't watch the news regularly, so it wasn't until noon that day when my roommates came home and told me that I found out about the planes hitting the WTC. Truth is, I can't really remember how I felt at that moment -- so possibly I was numb.

One of my professors ended up cancelling our class (Rhetoric of Text and Image) that night, but the next week he began to teach -- using images of Ground Zero, of shocked NYC pedestrians, of firefighters, of the plane crashes, and the text of newspaper clippings -- to explain how we, as human beings, communicate with words, gestures, our gazes, the tilts of our heads, the way we plant our feet. And what he taught was a nation in shock, in mourning, but still pulling together to help and survive. He taught us to recognise what heroes and victims and survivors looked like, how they spoke, how they moved.

I'd pretty much blocked that semester from my mind (I tend to do that once school is over), but obviously I remember more than I thought. Please accept my prayers from north of the border.

Scroll.

[> Re: ATPoBtVS board 9-11-01 -- Wisewoman, 08:32:24 09/12/02 Thu

I didn't check the board that morning until I got to work and by then a co-worker had told me about the tragedy and we'd hooked up the big screen TV in one of the boardrooms and were watching CNN. I remember sitting there watching, stunned, but somehow a little smug, too, because it didn't happen in Canada, and no one I knew would be injured or dead. Then I remembered all of you...

I was close to hysteria when I wrote, "Please post when you are able." I couldn't remember where anyone at ATPoBtVS lived, but I thought anom and Solitude 1056 were close to the disaster sites. And maybe OnM? I just didn't know.

Knowing all of you here has robbed me of my ability to remain an uninvolved, detached observer. In return it's given me the love and support of an incredible community. I'd say it's a more-than-fair trade.

;o)

[> Re: ATPoBtVS board 9-11-01 -- Little One, 13:49:04 09/12/02 Thu

Like many others, I wasn't on-line on 9-11-01. I had just moved and my computer was resembling my cooking - burnt, toasted and fried. I remember putting on the radio, anticipating a productive day of unpacking. When the news hit the radio, boxes lay forgotten beside me as I sank onto the couch to spend the rest of the day tuned into CBC and CNN. I also remember missing the comfort and companionship of this board.

I finally have a computer now and though I might be forced to merely be a lurker much of the time, I'm glad to be back!

[> [> Welcome back! -- Masq, 14:46:50 09/12/02 Thu

I thought you'd gone and disappeared on us!

[> [> [> Aw shucks (blushing and circling toe in berber) -- Little One, 05:40:53 09/13/02 Fri

Thanks, Masq! I wouldn't leave you guys willingly, that's for sure. I was merely a victim of a terminal computer and lack of funds. Of course now that I have on-line at work...(evil ellipses, OnM!)

Wisewoman, that was a beautiful post. I felt the same. Sitting in small town Canada, the tragedy seemed so far away until I thought about all of you.

Missed you guys and the stimulating cheeckbones, oops, I mean conversation. Yeh, that's it, conversation... ;-)

Little One

[> Re: ATPoBtVS board 9-11-01 -- JBone, 19:23:32 09/12/02 Thu

It's been a year, and it still tears my heart apart. I've probably read and watched as much as anyone about that day. But there are so many stories, still stinging with pain, that I'm hearing for the first time. It's probably the bagpipes playing Amazing Grace that beats me up. That's such a fallen hero's tune.

My ferocious rage has turned into a steady resolve. I was going to launch into a idealistic, political spiel here, but I deleted it. It was just too hokey. I will say that I believe that our generation will live up to the standards that those set before us by defeating the Axis in WWII, and later defeating communism. We will find a way to make terrorism obsolete, and bring something resembling peace to the world. That's my hope. Trust me, the spiel was worse.

Riley (possible spoilers S4-S6) -- meritaten, 13:57:24 09/11/02 Wed

Ok, I couldn't get my thoughts together before the thread disappeared, but ......

I thought Riley was a wonderful character in the show. I still do, but now for different reasons. Buffy had previously been involved with a vampire - not exactly what her culture and society dictate is "right" for her. She loved Angel, but experienced confusion over the appropriateness of her choice. She always wants a normal life, and in truth, a normal relationship. She found a nice, normal guy in Riley. Thing is, Riley, who, on the surface, seems more appropriate for her is NOT the right guy. After he left, her next relationship was with another vampire. She does want the "monster", but not in the literal sense - she wants what society tells her is wrong. She is fighting to realize that society's rules aren't always right. She has to be true to herself, not to the model set out for her. This is an important part of growing up and becoming a healthy adult.

As I have been thinking about the posts on the recently archived thread, I've realized that this story arc speaks to me and has made me realize something. I too have sought a nice, normal guy, but usually find myself involved with men that society says are wrong for me. Of course, these men aren't vampires, but they are what society sees as the scary "other" - other races, other cultures, other ways of seeing the world. Like Buffy, I am growing and learning to see who I am, not who society states that I should be.

In AYW, Buffy sees Riley again and obviously is still interested. However, Riley is still not right for her. His marriage is just the overt symbol of this. They are two people who see the world in different ways. Buffy is not really interested in Riley, but in the hope of achieving what society says will make her happy. Despite the independence and sense of self direction that she has shown throughout the series, Buffy has still been impacted by the rules of society. Many of these rules are deeply ingrained in all of us. AS we grow and develop more insight into life, we learn to make our own rules and find our own niche in the world. Buffy is still working through aspects of this process. Her relationship with Riley depicts this.

On a slightly different note, and returning to the "cardboard" theme, did Riley really remain unchanged by his time with Buffy? The episode where he freed Oz showed that he had realized that there was a grey area, even if this fact troubled him. In AYW, the demon he was chasing had to be killed. He was not, however, intent upon killing Spike. He did suggest it, but rather half-heartedly (who really thinks that he thought Buffy would have said yes?). Even though Spike had shown he still had the ability to involve himself in evil, Riley did not insist on killing him as he would of in early S4. I think the writers were more concerned with showing us that Buffy and Riley weren't right for each other (perhaps freeing her for a new romantic interest in S7??) than in saying that Riley was still a child who couldn't see grey areas. Riley is still fighting evil - still another "fry cook" - but he is still not truly compatible with Buffy beacuse he sees the world in an inherently different way. As I see it, it was just as wrong for him to change IN ORDER TO PLEASE BUFFY, as it would be for her to lose herself conforming to society's rules.

[> Re: Riley (possible spoilers S4-S6) -- Dead Soul, 14:56:56 09/11/02 Wed

Lovely post and I agree with many of the things you said, in particular, about Buffy growing and learning that normal is not what's right for her, but still yearning for it, still listening with half an ear to what society tells her she should want, which is perfectly natural for someone her age.

The grass would always seem greener on the normal side of the fence if she hadn't jumped that fence, given it a nibble and realized it just not right for her. Doesn't nourish her. Hmmm, do you think I've been taken over by the spirit of MOO? This is the point where Graham Chapman dressed as an army officer should come striding through the scene, shouting "Cut, cut! This sketch has become entirely too silly!"

My apologies, meritaten, for taking a lovely post and letting myself get carried away. I'd blame the medication if I were on any.

Dead (Mooo!) Soul

[> I couldn't have said it better myself -- luvthistle1, 00:01:02 09/12/02 Thu

Some times what society feels is right for you, is not always what you need. I understand . Hell, I been there.

Mayor Wilkins vs Warren -- JBone, 19:51:25 09/11/02 Wed

This mummy hand has ceased to be! It is an ex-mummy hand!

http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/road2sunnydale/index.html

yesterdays results

[> The Importance of Being Warren -- Malandanza, 23:40:36 09/11/02 Wed

If we look at the competition as a popularity contest, it's amazing Warren made it this far. However, if we are seriously evaluating the importance of the characters to BtVS, Warren is far more significant than the Mayor.

The Mayor was funny while at the same time chillingly evil -- similar to Holland Manners from AtS, but he had no lasting impact on Buffy and her friends. Any monster could have replaced him. Warren was different -- he killed Tara. And he was tortured and murdered by Willow. Everything has changed. But for Warren, Willow wouldn't be in England right now getting a magical lobotomy -- she'd still be on the path to destruction like those shamans that Sam mentioned in AYW. Furthermore, Willow's friend can never see her again as the innocent girl she was in Season One (especially not poor Dawn). Warren's surveillance equipment allowed Buffy and the gang to see the Spike and Anya show -- irrevocably ending two long term relationships and setting up Spike for the AR and soul searching in Africa. Warren has had a bigger impact on the Scoobies than any other villain.

More important than what Warren accomplished, however, is what he represented. Like Jonathan and Andrew, he symbolized one aspect of Willow's personality. Jonathan is the basically good part, but a little too willing to make a metaphorical trip to Mexico to avoid responsibility. Andrew was the side of Willow revealed in Restless -- the part not entirely grounded in reality and prone to acting a part rather than being who she is. Warren is the deliberate engineer side of Willow -- darker than the VampWillow sadism (which was really the Andrew side playing at being a villain without fully understanding the consequences) -- the side of her that asks "can I do this" instead of "should I do this". It is the side that could casually wipe the mind of her girlfriend to avoid a fight or that would be willing to shift an entire club full of people into another dimension to find a single truant girl. Warren's scientific toys (like the freeze ray when a can of pepper spray would have done as well) are like Willow's magic -- out of proportion to the goal. Like Willow, Warren suffers from a high school inferiority complex that he never got over and he's always trying to compensate for slights that ought to have been forgotten with graduation. Look at the Warren/Buffy fight scenes, the Willow/Buffy scenes -- Warren is Willow.

I'm not saying Warren is a nice guy -- just that he is far more important to BtVS than the Mayor.

[> [> The only thing that would've been more unnerving than Warren as BB... -- cjl, 07:10:33 09/12/02 Thu

Would be if Jonathan had played out Warren's storyline.

Now that would have been weird. Can you imagine the Scoobies' reaction? (Heck, can you imagine OUR reaction?)

I'm sure Joss considered it, but then thankfully decided our boy just didn't have it in him.

[> [> great post Mal! -- ponygirl (but I still voted for the Mayor), 07:14:47 09/12/02 Thu

[> [> Terrific post, Mal! -- HonorH, 11:04:32 09/12/02 Thu

I like your points about the Geek Mafia as aspects of Willow. Makes me wonder about how Willow will react to Jonathan and Andrew if they do return to Sunnydale next season (I hope, I hope).

[> [> Mal's post contains a spoiler (although relatively well-known) -- Sophist, 13:21:41 09/12/02 Thu

[> [> Re: The Importance of Being Warren -- Grant, 00:33:08 09/13/02 Fri

The Mayor was funny while at the same time chillingly evil -- similar to Holland Manners from AtS, but he had no lasting impact on Buffy and her friends. Any monster could have replaced him.

I don't think you give the Mayor nearly enough credit. IMHO, he was not only the best villain on BtVS, but also one of the best characters. And you cannot underestimate the influence he had on Buffy and the other characters. First of all, he was one of the biggest factors in Faith going to the dark side. The love and respect he showed her was what really solidified her decision to be a black hat. This is incredibly important because, before Willow, Faith was the first Scooby to go evil of her own volition. This was the first time the show really addressed the idea that the good guys can fall without needing some strange, nonsensical provision of a Gypsy curse to force it to happen. In one sense, Faith's fall might not seem nearly as major as Willow's. However, in some respects it has had more of an effect. It was first, it was more genuine (not based merely on a large amount of grief and possession by dark magic), and it also affected people on Ats, which Willow's fall is unlikely to do.

Also, you cite Warren's surveillance equipment at ending two long term relationships. However, only one of these relationships was actually long-term or even a relationship, as B/S only lasted a few episodes and never really became a full-fledged relationship. Also, both of these relationships had already ended before the Spike and Anya moment, so Warren can only be credited with further separating the relationships, not with ending them. And I personally do not think that we've seen the last of Xander and Anya.

The Mayor, meanwhile, was one of the characters most responsible for ending Buffy and Angel, and if anything was showcased as the longterm, soulmates type relationship on the show it was B/A. In his speech in Choices, the Mayor codifies all the doubts that had been creeping around in the back of Angel's mind about his relationship with Buffy. This directly leads to him breaking off the relationship in the very next episode. Indeed, Angel even admits that it was for the reasons the Mayor spoke of that he knew he needed to leave Buffy. Before Choices he was able to ignore these issues, but once the Mayor brought them out in the open the Buffy/Angel relationship was pretty much over.

And on a somewhat minor, although still very important, point, the Mayor was responsible for founding Sunnydale and keeping the town the way it was. The whole reason Buffy had to defend a city over a hellmouth, had a mostly oblivious citizenry, and had no help from authority was because of the Mayor. So, without him the whole show would have taken place in Cleveland, which would have been a bummer.

There is also a much larger point that I think you missed about the Mayor, given your assertion that any demon could have taken the role. The entire point of the Mayor was that he was human. When you ask most people what the theme of season three was, they will probably tell you graduation. But that was not the theme it was the conclusion. The true theme of the season was best expressed by Faith in dreamland: "You wanna know the deal? Human weakness. It never goes away." Season three was pretty directly focused on human weakness, and the problems that it causes.

Look at the way the season begins. Buffy is in LA working as a waitress because of one of her main points of weakness, her love for Angel. This weakness stays with her throughout the season, and it also involves Angel. In the beginning of the season, they have their weakness in their failure to control their feelings for each other. And the rest of the season revolves around them trying to figure out if they can love each other without having a physical relationship and releasing Angelus once again. All the other major plot arcs for the season revolve around human weakness as well. Such as the Xander and Willow relationship, in which they are not able to control their feelings for one another and eventually succumb to them. The entire Faith story arc is about human weakness and how it can help cause even the Chosen one to go to the dark side.

Notably, the majority of the villains for this season are human. There's the Jekyll and Hyde guy, Ethan Rayne, Mrs. Post, the watcher's council, the living dead gang from Zeppo (yeah, they are dead, but they are still mostly human), Jonathon/the Lunch Lady, and Tucker (Andrew's brother). Even other episodes without direct human villains involved human weakness as a major part of the plot, such as The Wish and Lover's Walk. So in a season with humanity and human weakness playing such a central role, it is fitting that the two main villains, Faith and the Mayor, are defined by their humanity.

Except for Willow and the Mayor, every other Big Bad on BtVS has been very inhuman. The Master and Adam both were clearly not human from their physical appearance, and their actions further backed this up. Angelus and Glory both looked human, but never really seemed human. We had known Angel long enough to know that he was a vampire, and Angelus acted in such a way that his evil was quite obvious even through his "angelic face." Glory was committing supernatural acts and being identified as "the beast" from her very first appearance. The Mayor, on the other hand, doesn't do anything supernatural until over halfway through the third season.

The Mayor strikes us as human from the very beginning, and he only appears more human in his relationship with Faith. In a show where fathers have either been non-existent, abusive, or completely forgotten when it suited the writers, we have had basically two rood father figures, Giles and the Mayor. We never get the sense that the Mayor was simply using Faith, because from the beginning he cares for her far more than any of the good guys ever did. Her welfare even becomes more important to him than the Ascension, an event he had been plotting for about 100 years. And his love for Faith was pretty much the only reason Buffy was able to defeat him. This is incredibly significant, because every other big bad, except Willow, is notable for their complete lack of love (unless you count Glory's self-love). The Mayor, meanwhile, is killed because of his love, because he maintained his human weakness even when he became a pure demon.

If ME had decided to just throw any demon in the Mayor's role, season 3 would have lost a lot of its resonance. A demon could not have possibly worked in the father-daughter scenes with Faith, so those would have had to be jettisoned. The entire Faith storyline would have had to be reworked. The demon also probably could not have successfully driven apart B/A, so another reason would have had to be concocted to break apart that relationship. And the demon could not have been killed because of his human weakness, his love, which would have completely destroyed the entire message of the season.

[> [> [> Wow! And again, Wow! -- Dead Soul, 07:31:36 09/13/02 Fri

Addictions, Admittance and ??? (spoils season 6 and spec) -- neaux, 13:41:23 09/12/02 Thu

Ok. I'm not one for any real earthshattering posts.. but something in my real life has been bothering and of course its easily relatable to BTVS.

it involves addiction.
now I have a coworker who used to be my boss, she was demoted from her position due to her problems. Problems showing up for work, problems getting work done, problems with not cancelling appointments. As her official Co-worker, I get stuck with all the apologies and all her work that wasnt done. See the big "secret" is she is an alcoholic. From the gossip around the building, if you admit you have a problem (or an addiction) you get demoted from your current position, must take a suspension without pay... but when you return to work you can continue to get away with murder because you've admitted you got a problem. and I assume there is some program that must be completed, to prove you are still worthy of your job.. but that is all speculation and from what I've seen from the higher ups.. a complete lack of reality.

So here I type this out... lettin everyone know the business at my business. Why? because once again my coworker is out "sick" and has been all week. And will she get in trouble? or be given the boot?? I doubt it. She hasnt even worked a full week in over a month. Any written company policies that apply to attendance and performance hold no relevance to her. She can do whatever she wants.

So here is my question for those who have read this far.
Is addiction and admittance grounds for a free ride? Once the addiction has been established or made public, can one get away will murder?

So this is how it relates to Willow. She admitted she had a problem. Returned down her dark path and as far as we know, has gotten away with murder. Are the writers trying to tell me something... or will there be justice or some form of consequences in season 7? If there isnt.. I can understand why now.

I'm totally confused as to how our society works.. and is this practice is standard in the business community?

[> I'm trusting in Joss -- HonorH, 14:02:40 09/12/02 Thu

I believe there will be definite repercussions for Willow's actions in S7. What those repercussions are, I'm not at all certain of. But I can't believe that Joss, he who likes to see his creations suffer, would just drop it at "She's sorry, so sorry."

[> Re: Addictions, Admittance and ??? (spoils season 6 and spec) -- mzee, 14:07:35 09/12/02 Thu

I have an addiction problem, and 14 years ago when I "admitted" it, my employer was not nearly as understanding as yours seems to be. I was saved from being fired, but was placed on probation. I worked my way off of probation, got fired later anyway and got a much better job.
Anyway, I don't know as I want to see Willow get punished or whatever. Life gives some folks an easier time than you or I would think is right and it seems to screw others. Buffy seems like that. How much stuff did Angel and Spike get away with? Buffy seems to be the one who can never get over, and maybe that's part of what makes her so heroic.

[> I think (hope) the show has abandonned the magic/drugs metaphor -- Slain, 14:29:52 09/12/02 Thu

[> Re: Co-Worker Problems -- meritaten, 14:33:34 09/12/02 Thu

It sounds like, at least from your perspective, your employer is being a bit too easy on this person, at your expense. However, Addiction can be a real problem. Perhaps your co-worker cannot help being sick?

I have a friend who has a problem with depression and misses a fair amount of work as a result. He is not out taking a vacation, he is curled up in the corner trying to get up the will power to do basic things like feeding himself. He would far prefer to be able to work, but his illness is often beyond his control.

No, this isn't fair to his co-workers. However, would it be fair to let him go because he has an illness we don't understand?

THis is a difficult type of question. I don't know what the answer is. I think two important points to consider are:

1. Is the person seeking help? Remember this can be very hard and resolve will waver. ...But are they exploiting the situation, or trying to overcome something very difficult?

2. What if this happened to you? How would you feel then about tolerance in such a situation? Nobody thinks it will happen to them.

I'm not attacking you. I can't see if the person in question is struggling or coasting. I'm just sharing my perspective. I don't have answers, but I do understand your frustration.

To relate this back to Willow, I think the proper response to her actions will be affected by her attitude towards those actions. If, as in HonorH's fiction, she is traumatized, she should be given more understanding than if she shows no remorse. I think there will definitely be consequences, but perhaps not the kind that we would expect. I'm looking forward to seeing how this plays out.

I'm sorry that you are in such a trying position. It is not at all pleasant to be stucking covering for a co-worker. Your frustration is completely understandable. I hope that this person learns to manage their problem and your work situation improves.

[> [> Great Response! but It was only half a rant more contemplation -- neaux, 17:11:36 09/12/02 Thu

I totally wanted someone to bring up both perspectives. Thank you for your response.

Like I said, it was half a rant because yes it is difficult to have your sole co-worker in your department be away all the time; it gets frustrating.

and I know I must look at her perspective as well.

I honestly hope she gets help. She's very smart and witty and when she tries, she is good at her job. But feeling the blunt of her actions, I'm in the position to wish her to get her help in an actual hospital, because in the field of work we are in, she is only hurting other people. I think the management team is crazy.

So with that said, I honestly wanted to take an actual scenario from my life and relate it to Willow's scenario. I agree with you that if Willow is traumatized.. sympathy should be given. I'm just anxious to see how everything plays out.. and given the lack of topics today on the board, I felt willing to share the group! ^_^ I thought it would be a good debate too.

[> [> [> Re: Great Response! but It was only half a rant more contemplation -- meritaten, 17:51:34 09/12/02 Thu

I'm looking forward to seeing how the Willow thing plays out. There is a whole range of possibilities..... Even with the lighter tone promised, she can't just shrug it off and go back to being our innocent little Willow. I'm curious to see if Giles' coven will do a magic lobotomy or castration or whatever. ....Or would that be taking the (comparatively) easy way out??????? Or will we watch both Willow and Spike (and Xander, Anya, DAwn, Giles, and Buffy, for that matter) deal with past mistakes and move on? Living with mistakes is part of growing up, right? The closer it gets, the more imaptient I am!

Hope things improve for you and your co-worker. I don't envy either one of you. I guess you know first hand how the rest of the Scoobies were supposed to be feeling about Willow. She totally violated their trust and caused them massive problems. "Where do we go from here?", to quote OMWF.

[> [> [> [> Identify with your situation...and on Willow -- shaodwkat, 06:09:37 09/13/02 Fri

While we can be sympathetic towards someone with a problem who needs help - when that person's behavior hurts others
and their management style hurts the business? Maybe it's time to stop being so understanding?

My boss is a former alcoholic and a manic-depressive. According to rumor? He went off lithium last year.And resumed drinking.
He had these problems before - the company made him leave and get help. If he got it? They would bring him back with a promotion. When he left to get help? He was a consultant.
He had been with the company before as the Director
of one of our Editorial departments, but left to work somewhere else briefly. When that fell through he came back to the company where I work. Anyways, he apparently cleaned up his act and the President of the company made him a Vice President in charge of five departments and over 200 people.
Over the last year this guy has exploded in my face, torn me apart personally, and endeavored to ruine my career, he is a bully. He does it all with a smile on his face and I never know what he will do next. I've been told twice by coworkers that he let them know he had gone off lithium and his problems. I've met lots of scarey people in my life, he scares me the most because I do not know when he will stab me in the back next. So while I sympathise with people who have these problems? I believe they should not be put in charge of others or be managers. Or placed in a position in which they can do great harm as this man has been.

This fits Willow. Willow has a great deal of dark power inside her. She needs to learn how to handle it. If she doesn't? She could cause great harm. Greater harm than any of the other characters as was aptly demonstrated last year.
Willow can hurt more people than an unchipped Spike. Or a newly demonized Anya. To treat Willow's condition lightly?
Would be wrong and from what I've seen on both Ats and Btvs, I don't see the writers doing that. Actually it's the glaring error I've seen in lots of post Grave fanfic - they've treated it lightly. It won't be. You can't treat that lightly.

It's one thing if the person misses work and the co-worker has to cover for them or they need to get a temp. It's quite another if the person is managing the lives of others
in a department. Or if the person has enough power to literally destroy the world.

I think a good portion of next year will be examining the issues of guilt, remorse, atonement, and handling rage/anger/ and addiction from seven points of view:
Giles, Buffy, Xander, Dawn = Spike, Anya, Willow...
should be fascinating.

[> [> [> Willow's repercussions -- leslie, 19:31:00 09/12/02 Thu

In Something Blue, Willow made amends for her magical damge partly out of her own sense of guilt (making lots of cookies) and partly through the "punishments" assigned by Giles (she had to detail his car). Not an exact comparison, but my suspicion is that the repercussions of her current slippage will be along the same lines, suitably inflated to account for the proportionately larger degree of damage she's caused.

Pliny the Vampire Identifier?? -- purplegrrl, 13:47:54 09/12/02 Thu

As a lot of you probably know, one of the ways that people in earlier times identified a vampire was by opening the deceased's coffin and noting that the corpse's hair and fingernails had continued to grow after death. Of course modern science has refuted this, telling us that the supposed growth (particularly of fingernails) is actually the skin pulling back from the nail base during decomposition.

But where did these people get the idea that hair and nails grew after death? Surely they had seen the corpses of animals inwhich similar decomposition had occurred.

In first-century Rome Pliny the Elder wrote his 37-book encyclopedia entitled "Natural History." These books are an interesting mix of fact and fallacy. Odd and sensational excerpts from "Natural History" have been so widely read and so freely copied, pilfered, and plagiarized that some of them still linger in our legends, superstitions, folklore, and mythologies. Such as the idea that porcupines shoot their quills. Pliny wrote that a porcupine "pierces the mouths of hounds when they close with it, and shoots out at them when further off," and the idea is still one of the most widespread zoological myths. Another such idea is that our ears ring when we are the subject of gossip. There is no reason they should, but Pliny seemed to give sanction to that bit of lore when he said it was an "accepted belief" that "absent people can divine by the ringing in their ears that they are the object of talk."

Now back to vampires. In "Natural History," Pliny mentions that hair and fingernails grow on a corpse. We may laugh at the idea and show scientific evidence that they don't, but from the first century A.D. through the Renaissance Pliny was one of Western civilization's most influential writers. By the Middle Ages his encyclopedia of the physical world, "Natural History," was the medieval equivalent of a runaway best-seller, and Pliny was undisputed as an authority on science, nature, mankind, and the cosmos. And even though not everyone could read or afford books, this "knowledge" would have trickled down to the common people. And because it came from an "authority," the information would be believed.

So for a people already predisposed to a belief in vampires, seeing longer nails and hair on a corpse was "evidence" of Pliny's "truth." Furthermore, it was evidence of a vampire in their midst.

[> Re: Pliny the Vampire Identifier?? -- Darby, 17:01:52 09/12/02 Thu

Such "evidence" was also periodically used to "prove" that people were often buried alive (which probably did happen occasionally anyway) and briefly led to a thriving cottage industry of bells connected inside coffins and suchlike.

[> [> Re: Pliny the Vampire Identifier?? -- Wolfhowl3, 22:18:46 09/12/02 Thu

Don't knock the bells in coffins, because there are at least a dozen cases of people's lives being saved because it was there. (or so I have heard on some old documantary)

Wolfie

[> [> [> Re: Avon calling - with a twist! -- Desperado, 05:55:10 09/13/02 Fri

[> [> [> Re: Pliny the Vampire Identifier?? -- Thomas the Skeptic, 08:33:28 09/13/02 Fri

I think I saw that same documentary, and, from what I remember, being buried alive was not that uncommon. Before modern medical technology existed it was difficult, if not impossible, to identify comas, narcolepsy, and other death-like medical conditions (so they said). Hence the need for a communication system from the grave just in case premature burial had taken place.

The First Day of Buffy -- Wolfhowl3, 21:10:03 09/12/02 Thu

Because there are now 12 days until the next new Buffy, I thought I would start the 12 Days of Buffy Song.

Music Please.

On the First Day of Buffy,
Joss Weldon Gave to me,

A Slayer Holding Mr. Pointy

More to come as the Day get's Closer. :)

Wolfie

[> Re: The First Day of Buffy -- HonorH, 21:13:00 09/12/02 Thu

Very cute, but it's Joss Whedon. Just FYI.

[> [> Re: The First Day of Buffy -- Wolfhowl3, 21:28:20 09/12/02 Thu

I must hang my head in Shame!

/e Hangs Head in Shame

(in case you haven't noticed, I can not spell to save my life!)

[> [> [> Re: The First Day of Buffy -- beekeepr, 02:17:50 09/13/02 Fri

it's ok, wolfie-slayrunt can't spell worth a shirt, either...

[> The Second Day of Buffy -- Wolfhowl3, 08:21:39 09/13/02 Fri

On the Second Day of Buffy,
Joss Whedon gave to me.

Two Watchers Watching,
And a Slayer Holding Mr. Pointy.

9/11, the Teletubbies and Buffy the Vampire Slayer -- BlueLight, 03:17:02 09/13/02 Fri

9/11, the Teletubbies and Buffy the Vampire Slayer

A couple of days after 9/11 I sat around wishing I was stoned and watching LaLa, Dipsy, Tinky-Winky and Po as they hauled their fat, multicolored butts through the rabbits and the flowers and rolled around on the grass while the baby sun giggled. Wishing I was stoned even though I hate drugs. Wishing I was drunk even though I hate alcohol. I wished I was stoned or drunk and could watch the Teletubbies and forget. I didn't want to see those murders on TV anymore, murder by airliner. What was wrong with those people? Hadn't they heard of guns?

I didn't want to see it again. Except that I was obsessed with it.

The terrorist attack seemed like a horrific movie and I kept waiting for it to end but they kept rerunning it 24/7 on almost every channel.

The worst part was the people who jumped or fell. I would close my eyes and turn my head away when they showed them on TV. I couldn't bear to watch. Watching the buildings fall, that wasn't too badÖyou couldn't see any people and I didn't let myself imagine them. But the tapes of people falling, that long, long fallÖno imagination needed. You know, when someone falls like that, when they finally hit, they kind ofÖexplode, blood and body parts and bones scattered around them. I see them falling and think of Öthat.

They say that a man and a woman jumped together and held hands on the way down. I never saw any pictures but I wondered about them a lot. Did they know each other before that moment? Were they lovers, spouses, friends? Or were they strangers clinging for comfort in the last moments of their lives. Did they have other lovers or spouses who looked at pictures of their freefall, recognized them and saw that jump as evidence of a betrayal? Were they jealous of that final closeness? Or relieved that their loved one had a hand to hold onto.

Thank God, they stopped showing those tapes. Except we still see them. They're seared into our brains.

And the calls from those about to die. You know how if a loved one is killed people always say they wish they could have talked to them one more time, told them that they loved them? It turns out the victims want that too. People in the towers, in the planes, trapped, knowing they were soon to die, they got on their mobile phones and called the people they loved to say goodbye. To reach out and touch one more time. Before mobile phones who knew? Before mobile phones we might have guessed they were too concerned with survival to think of their families, their lovers, but no. They too wanted that final closure, they wanted to say "I love you" one last time before they leapt into the eternal dark.

So I watched the Teletubbies and tried to mellow out. No one ever dies on the Teletubbies. No one ever gets hurt. The bunnies munch on the grass and the Teletubbies munch on Teletubbie pudding and they giggle a lot and act shy and silly. It's totally sweet and completely boring. Probably a lot like heaven.

I watched Teletubbies then after about a month I got into Buffy the Vampire Slayer. No terrorists on Buffy. No airplanes. Barely any cars. My flight into fantasy was a flight from reality but reality had had its chance and now I rejected it. In addition to Season 6 on UPN, F/X was showing reruns of previous seasons, two a day, 5 days a week, plus there were single episodes on Saturday (Fox) and Sunday (UPN). So, over the course of a couple of months, I watched every episode of Buffy ever made. It was like watching an enormous miniseries and never once in any episode did a plane fly into a building killing thousands. Ya gotta love that. There was a threatened apocalypse from time to time, but Buffy and her friends were always able to avert it. On Buffy love, courage and sacrifice make a difference. They hold back the dark instead of being crushed by it. Also Buffy was more popular than Bush. At least online. "Buffy" gets about twice as many hits on Google as "George W. Bush" does. Just what I wanted. And there was the great and surprisingly explicit love affair between Slayer Buffy and Vampire Spike. Talk about star-crossed lovers. And the actor who plays Spike is fantastic. It was all a great distraction. And there were many, many sites that discussed BtVS (Buffy the Vampire Slayer) in deeply intellectual and totally trivial detail. Like Spike and Courtly Love or Origins and Metaphors Relating to Reinvention of Self, Parts I & II or Spike's Redemption-Subverting or Supporting Canon?, even wrote some myself, Investing in Spuffy, and Taming Spike. But now reality is creeping even into the analysis of BtVS or Buffy metaphors are being dragged into more serious works. Such as BIOLOGICAL WARFARE AND THE "BUFFY PARADIGM" or Slaying Terrorism. It's starting to depress me. No more hiding place.

Now I'm back to reading Buzzflash.com and getting more depressed about the condition of the world. Jeez. Reality. You can keep it.

[> Re: 9/11, the Teletubbies and Buffy the Vampire Slayer -- Arethusa, 04:50:20 09/13/02 Fri

My kids are in this reality, and so are a lot of good people who, incredibly, love BtVS as much as I do. So are all the books that gave me comfort, or entertainment, or enlightenment. And there's little stuff like chocolate and unexpected gifts in the mail and people smiling at me in the street for no reason and finding a pair of size 9 1/2 shoes that don't look like black bricks with heels.

Even if I only make a tiny amount of difference in the world, there are billions of other people out there who can do the same, and make a huge difference. If a butterfly's wings can change history, surely we can change the world, "one small act of kindness at a time."

[> [> Exactly... -- Wisewoman, 06:50:23 09/13/02 Fri

...that's Angel's Epiphany!

"If nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do."

BlueLight, do you watch Angel as well as Buffy? This particular episode might help.

;o)

[> [> [> Re: Exactly... -- Bluelight, 08:37:46 09/13/02 Fri

I've only watched a few Angel episodes. Hopefully when it goes into syndication I can see the ones I've missed.

I didn't mean to say that reality contains nothing good or to denigrate the interest of long time fans. But I got into Buffy after 9/11. Perhaps I would have become a fan even if the terrorist attack had never happened. But I believe I got into it so deeply and so fast as a reaction to the tragedy, as a way to avoid brooding on something I could, in no way, change or affect. Since the ratings for "Friends" skyrocketed after 9/11 I wasn't the only person seeking escape. But "Friends" never appealed to me. Buffy seemed deeper. There is evil in the Buffyverse but evil that can be fought and defeated. Sacrifice is always meaningful. Innocents die but the loses are few. The heroes always win. Buffy seemed the opposite of RL. At least to me. So for me this art provided what life could not.

[> [> [> [> Re: Exactly... -- Arethusa, 09:40:31 09/13/02 Fri

You didn't denigrate anyone. I was trying to say that maybe we can change the world, even if we don't see the results. A tiny stone sends out a tiny ripple, but the ripples widen, even if we never see them.

One of the great things about Buffy is even when facing insurmountable odds, she doesn't give up. She'll never kill all the vampires and demons, but every one killed is another life-or lives-saved. For every victim of the attack, there were thousands of people who heroically gave blood and time and money to help people they never met. There is an increased respect for our everyday heroes, and for ourselves-we know now that when we need to, we come together and help each other.

There's still killing and terror, of course-on all sides. I hate the fact we attacked Afghanistan, although I would have hated getting bombed again even more. But every time I read or hear about how spoiled and arrogant and murderously imperialistic we are, I remember all the good we try to do, and how very often whenever governments abroad need help, they turn to America. The same people who vilify us seek to emigrate here, because they know their children will live in relative peace and prosperity here.

Huh. I wasn't going to write about 9/11, because I thought I didn't have anything to say.

[> Some thoughts, and hopefully words of comfort about "those last few seconds" -- Ronia, 09:34:58 09/13/02 Fri

Now, generally, I'm not too big with the sharing of personal experience..but I'll make an exception here..and I'll try to tie it into "The Gift".

When I was a sophmore in high school, the minivan I was in was hit by a train on our way home from school. It was January, and icey, and we slid out onto the tracks directly in front of it. It hit right outside my window..and then it came in and hit me, as the van bounced and was hit again. I had a moment of complete clarity..time really did seem to stop for just..a moment..and I thought out loud in my head.."i'm going to die, right now I'm going to die, there is no way I'm walking away from this one." I felt sad, about all that I was going to miss, and I thought of my mother, and how devastated she would be..and I wonderred with unease if my body would be really torn apart..I also wonderred in a strangely complacent manner if it was going to hurt much. The really strange thing was, that I wasn't afraid..I had accepted and let go..I was limp and at the mercy of physics when it hit..and it did hurt...but just for the briefest moment before I lost consciousness..it almost hurt to much to hurt..the weight and the crushing and indescribable impact going someplace beyond pain and taking me with it, needless to say, I passed completely out.

People said that they heard the crash all over town, so imagine my suprise and everyone elses, when a few minutes [hours, days?] later, I just..sat up. Feeling something gritty in my mouth, and certain that it was surely all of my teeth shatterred I felt my first real panic..and then relief when it was only glass, and then my suprise that there wasn't a scratch on me. A friend sitting next to me panicked as well and said "lets get out of here!", and we did..we crawled out, all of us, and watched the ambulance speed up and come to a screetching halt..clearly expecting the worst mess they had seen in a while, maybe ever. They got out and looked at us, standing there, and looked at the demolished van ( which had been hit down the tracks numerous times and finally hit a phone pole and bounced off the tracks) and they scratched their heads and asked if we were alright. We were, I walked to the local soda fountain, and had an ice cream, with extra chocolate fudge....my friend [who worked there] put extra cherries on it too, and wiped some blood off my face from a scratch with a napkin as I dazedly ate spoonfull after spoonfull and tasted not a single one of them.

Then, two winters ago, I was driving home after visiting my mother, and passing through a very rural area, when all of a sudden my alternater decided to give up the ghost and my car was completely dead out of the clear blue sky at midnight, in the middle of nowhere, and I had two small children in the back. I saw the train on the tracks in front of me, then I saw the strangest thing...the car approaching on the other side didn't seem to be slowing down..I watched through the gaps in the cars of the train as this car went headfirst right into the side of the train....it never even slowed down, I heard no sound of screetching brakes, it didn't swerve. The front was ripped off, the car flipped around, and there was me, standing outside my car, looking on in horror, and waiting impatiently for the train to pass so that I could get to the victims of the crash. For the first time I felt the helplessness, I was all alone, with a dead car and small children and no way of getting help...I approached the car with a sense of dread that was justified..the man in the car was mortally injured, barely looked human anymore..I doubt that he lived..I feared to move him because of the angle that his neck was at, and I couldn't find his hands to take his pulse...then I realized how silly all of those things were, he was in a bad way, no need to take his temperature just to measure for myself how bad it was...he was breathing ( albeit irregularly) and I very gently tried to talk to him. He seemed to breathe differently at the sound of my voice, but he couldn't respond..so I quickly checked the ditches for other passengers, and then sat by and watched him watch oblivion, still talking about nothing in particular, touching his arm with extreme caution as I walked the fence between not wanting to hurt him, and not wanting to leave him unconsoled for fear of getting my hands dirty. Time passed, and I grew more anxious about his condition, and finally..a teenager approached in a truck..and he had a cell phone..he took one look at the guy and freaked out, so I sent him to sit in my car with my kids while I called 911. Finally the police, and the ambulance and the helicopter arrived, and there were reports to be filed, questions to be asked, and a very pathetic looking man to be lifeflighted.it took a long time to get him out though. When all was done and the police were about to leave, I rememberred that my car was dead, and said something like "oh, by the way...can I get a tow?" I was shaking all over and not just from the cold. I have watched a lot of people die, I have performed post mortems on the bodies, but all in a controlled situation. I had zero control out there and he wasn't even dead when I found him..although, really he probably did die shortly after..I'll most likely never know.

Having experienced both witnessing and personally having a near death experience, I can say with certainty that witnessing was worse. The panic, the helplessness, the despair. So, when I see the media footage of people jumping out of buildings, I am disgusted by the crassness and obvioussness of their motives. In my opinion, the only people who need to see these things were the people who died, and the people who held their hand while they died..I wasn't there, but two members of our family were, one an employee at the WTO and the other, his brother in law, a fireman. They both died. I can't help them, I didn't even know them all that well [extended family]. I don't need to witness their last moments, I don't need to make their panic my own. This September 11th, I refused to watch any of the "rememberance". The media disgusts me with their psuedo reverance. My aunt said that at the funerals, the media was looking for people crying, and pushing their way over to stick a camera in the faces of the bereaved. Where was their reverance then? I say watch your teletubbies with pride..it is time better spent, even better, watch them with your children, hold them close and tell them how much you love them. Be gratefull that this time at least, it wasn't your turn, and it wasn't the turn of your loved ones. There is no guilt, no pain, no true sympathy, it wasn't yours, so I say leave it be. It seems I am out of things to say before I am able to tie this in with Buffy, my apologies...hope it was worth the space I took up, I'm not even going to spellcheck this before I post it, for fear that I will delete it--- Ronia

[> [> Re: Some thoughts, and hopefully words of comfort about "those last few seconds" -- GreatRewards, 09:54:08 09/13/02 Fri

um.... Wow!

[> [> Re: Some thoughts, and hopefully words of comfort about "those last few seconds" -- JM, 10:24:50 09/13/02 Fri

Ronia, thank you.

[> [> Re: Some thoughts, and hopefully words of comfort about "those last few seconds" -- verdantheart, 12:41:20 09/13/02 Fri

Thanks so much for sharing your experience with us! I'm glad that you could be there for that gentleman during what could have been some of his last moments. It's hard to believe that your car broke down there rather than somewhere else without reason. I agree with you so much about the media. I was going to add to this, but you said it so well. I'll just say during the news I spend a lot of time closing my eyes, or changing the channel, or turning down the sound to avoid being a party to such intrusions.

[> [> Soul-stirring. -- mundusmundi, 15:53:42 09/13/02 Fri

[> [> Re: Inappropriate media barrage and appropriate remembrances -- SpikeMom, 18:07:40 09/13/02 Fri

I, too turned off all the media I possibly could on 9-11. A five minute national standstill would have been far more appropriate. As for all those corporate ads and commercials, I would have been more impressed if the cost of them had been quietly directed to scholarship funds, fire and police equipment funds, etc. Perhaps those corporations could have paid their lobbiests to spend thirty days pushing for better military pay, FBI recruiting and training, and funding other national and domestic security concerns. It's been a year and thanks to travel industry foot-dragging, among other things, we still don't have x-ray of 100% of checked airline bagge/cargo. This is America, we sent men to the moon, blah, blah...
(Jumping off the soap box now).
Ronia, it's good to have you here.

[> [> some thoughts in response -- anom, 23:17:57 09/14/02 Sat

First, Ronia, I'm so glad you weren't hurt when that train hit the minivan you were in. That's amazing.

Second, anyone reading this, if you're ever in an accident & seem to be unhurt, get checked out at a hospital anyway. You could have internal injuries. Same goes for other "could have died" situations, especially near-drowning--the worst stuff happens hours later. Take it from a medical editor who reads about this stuff all the time: sometimes life-threatening injuries aren't obvious right away. Let a doctor have a look & make sure.

...OK, now that I wrote that part I've been sitting here for almost 5 minutes trying to think of what else to say about the main subject of this thread. I do have some stuff I've been thinking about since the 1st few weeks after the terrorist attacks, but it's gonna take a lot more time than I have right now (like maybe after next week). But I want to thank Masq for posting the link to the archives from a year ago in that other thread. I remember those days & the pall over this board--over the world--trying to find out if we were all OK & to sort out what was happening & what was going to happen. Suddenly a board about a show that deals w/questions of good & evil & the complexity of recognizing & dealing w/them was discussing those questions in real life. Reading it over again, I'm very impressed with us--I mean, even more than usual!

One more thing--did you give blood last year? Have you done it since? Smaller-scale disasters--down to 1 person--happen every day, & blood banks are running low. If you can, make another blood donation. Don't wait for another catastrophe.

[> Catharsis, grim realities, and fantasy -- Rahael, 10:36:12 09/13/02 Fri

I think we all have different approaches to BtVS, and what we get out of it - I started watching from mid-Season 2 onwards, and what captured me was the sense of sadness, desolation and danger which pervaded what should have been a escapist fantasy.

The heroes didn't always win. Truth and honour can get perverted by circumstance. There was love and courage, but also darkness and fear, and hatred. Murder. Death. A girl being asked to kill the man she loved.

I guess I'm a strange individual. There was a time in my life when I lived for the escapism. Absolute escapism, where I literally did not live in the world I actually was in. I strove at all times to disengage, to push my mind away. I wanted a world totally different from mine. Calm, peaceful, ordered. Where people's bellies never ached with hunger because no matter how much money you had, there wasn't any food to buy. I used to sit down to breakfast, lunch, dinner of rich tea biscuits and pretend that I was eating something else entirely.

I'd close my eyes and build up a complete, detailed picture of the place I wanted to be in. Where I could control everything, and was not powerless or scared. I didn't realise at the time that I was building a prison for myself, albeit a prison that I wanted to be in.

The more scary the world outside got, the more fantastical it seemed to me. Those shouts in the night, those rhythmic footsteps - those couldn't possibly be soldiers running through my much loved forest. Those surreal blunt thumps which were actually bullets but didn't sound anything like you'd imagined them. But it kept getting harder and harder to pretend, even for me. The electricity went, and our lives were plunged in darkness. Even now, I can't sleep in complete darkness alone. But I kept reading more and more to escape by candlelight. I zipped through Dostoevsky, George Bernard Shaw's complete plays, the Bible (many many times), Jane Austen, everything I could get my hands on. I ruined my eyesight, by trying desperately to keep reading by twilight. Because the words offered a fragile refuge for my mind.

My life kept getting chipped away at. An army camp settled in the neighbours house, so no more outdoor bathing in the early tropical morning, with the soft breezes, and the call of birds, watching the wind bend the long luxuriant grass. No more picnics in the forest at the bottom of the garden - they'd put up electrified fences. Now, always, the disturbed nights, where we'd run to the bomb shelter. I tried to read through them as well, but it was too difficult to read through the terrifying fear.

The imagined world was utterly mundane. I imagined going through a normal day. Routine, order. Choosing clothes to wear. Deciding what meals to eat. I spent a serious amount of time on thinking about food, til I could amost taste and smell things like bread, which I hadn't eaten for months. Just bread. Maybe buttered, or even better, with jam or marmite.

I tried to normalise the arrangements we had made for shelter when the Indian army was shelling our town. We had a big table, and on top, a wooden bed. Underneath the table, another bed. Underneath that, mattresses. It gave us a small space to crawl under, though we could only roll in and out. It seemed to me that we had made our own graves for ourselves. But when daylight fell, I used the multiple stages the structure created to act out dramas - I can at this point only remember the Odyssey and the Trojan war.

I can remember one night, lying under the the dark space, listening to the shells whizzing closer and closer, looking at all of us, lying there so quietly, not making a sound and thinking, "if this goes on for one second, I can literally feel my mind slipping into utter insanity".

Looking back, all of these experiences sound incredible, fantastical, otherworldly. My life now is composed of routine, order and harmony. An uninterrupted night's sleep. A book read in peace of mind. But sometimes I get scared (a la Philip K Dick) that my mundane reality is a big lie, and it'll all get ripped away to reveal the real menacing world. Uncontrollable, cruel, terrifying.

At a safe point, I grew sick of the prison of words and detachment I had created for myself and started to emerge. Suddenly, saccharine fantasies, happy endings sickened me. They seemed to be malicious lies. I wanted complexity, depth, sadness. It was the only way to bring together the two different worlds, both nightmarish in their own way, together, so I could make sense of a world which contained pretty clothing and delicious food, as well as a world where incredibly unjust, painful suffering occurred.

That's why I watched Buffy. I instantly felt at home. From my world view, I could always see the underlying horror and sadness, which the wit and humour just made more poignant.

I too have had my near death experiences. But there was no mercy for me, no calm acceptance, no detachment. I stood in a horrified paralysis, conscious of my utter mortality, mired in flesh and blood, vulnerable to pain. My tongue would lose self possession, sweat would drench me, and I could feel my mind slipping away, until all I was drowned in fear. Perhaps this was because I was convinced I would not be able to escape alive, despite having escaped before. Perhaps I knew that even if I died today, I might not be so lucky tomorrow. Perhaps I felt like something hunted, hated, to have so many assaults made on my sanity, dignity and life. One particular recurring dream which I got was being forced to die seven times, each time a different way. A hand would hold me down, pushing me under the water. I would die, but come back to life when I was pulled out again. Only to be pushed back.

There was a time when I felt like a monster for containing all these things within me. All sorts of terrible feelings that nice people shouldn't have. To have to watch others recoil from me because I had taken what turned out to be a lonely, tough decision. But accepting the darkness that I contained meant that I could start comprehending the world I lived in too, which contained all colours, from the lightest ray of sunlight, to the deepest black of night.

[> [> Re: Catharsis, grim realities, and fantasy -- aliera, 13:42:20 09/13/02 Fri

As usual, Rah...indescribable.

Welcome back.

[> [> [> Re: Catharsis, grim realities, and fantasy -- Slain, 13:52:59 09/13/02 Fri

As usual, Rah...indescribable.

Welcome back.

I second that motion.

[> [> Re: Catharsis, grim realities, and fantasy -- celticross, 14:07:54 09/13/02 Fri

As is usually the case when I read posts like this, Rah, I am completely grateful for my mundane little life and its small traumas.

It's nice to see you again, though. :)

[> [> Re: Catharsis, grim realities, and fantasy -- Arethusa, 14:59:43 09/13/02 Fri

Welcome back from me, too. This is a better place with you in it.

[> Folks, don't pass this thread by! -- Darby, 14:39:43 09/13/02 Fri

I don't read absolutely every thread that goes up - I decide based upon the starting title, titles in responses, and the posters who get involved. I wasn't inclined at first to read this one, but what a huge mistake that would have been!

Thank you BlueLight, Ronia, Rahael, for sharing some of your lives with us.

[> [> I second that -- *sniffling trying not to cry* Ete, 13:45:00 09/14/02 Sat

[> Unbelievably affecting posts! I'm speechless! -- Dichotomy, 15:13:02 09/13/02 Fri

[> Re: 9/11, the Teletubbies and Buffy the Vampire Slayer -- Eric, 04:22:19 09/15/02 Sun

Can't offer much comment on 9/11. Nor traumas to compare to it or others. I was to offer how the 14th century sucked more, but it was pedantic and the computer froze. I could comment that the Teletubbies inspire instant disgust, unlike Barney, who requires audio. But if either give comfort I'd buy the DVDs.

What does come to me is a line that Angel once told Buffy after her mom told her Slaying was "fruitless" ("no fruit for Buffy"). Angel told her that victory was not what they fought for. They fought because what they defended was worth fighting for. What we have in this modern world is worth fighting for. That so many are as horrified that we stoop just a little to terrorism's level to fight it inspires me. A lot of people would call such attitudes pollyanna - but I consider it a vestage of civilization and moral strength. In it is as much possibility of salvation as a regiment of Special Forces.

I will add that love, courage, and sacrafice DO make a difference. THAT is not a Buffy fantasy. Don't EVER let any so-called realist to persuade you otherwise. If it wasn't, this life would be pretty pathetic and nobody would notice 9/11 except as a change in the NYC landscape.

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