witch. I don't speak Hebrew or Greek and my Bible's
(New International version, if you care) Concordance was not terribly
useful. For some reason the whole witch of Endor thing does not
even rate a cross reference. I'm inclined to think that given
the complexity of language and the way words collect meanings
like trailing garments in the dust, that everyone is correct.
Witches (yes, yes, they were wicca, good, and love the earth and
it's my verse hello) whisper and speak with the dead and poison
and in a God's trusty hammer sort of way, seduce.
What's interesting in the whole witch of Endor incident is the
way agency and speech shifts so quickly from the woman to the
dead man. She see Samuel, understands Saul's true identity, and
as if by the quality of her gaze, Samuel begins to speak directly
to Saul. It actually reminds me very much of Purgatory XIX, where
Dante's (a poet's) gaze has the power to transform a "stammering,
cross-eyed, and crooked..." woman and give her "a ready
tongue." Course as with Saul, this turns out to be a bad
idea, since Samuel only chews Saul out. The witch only resumes
speech after Samuel has gone and it is to offer Saul food and
comfort. I'm particularly taken with her both slaughtering a fatted
calf and kneading and baking bread to feed him. Death and creation
in a single moment.
Perhaps it's the kneading the bread, and thank you Arethusa for
the Laurie King reference, but this makes me think about Mary
Russell's discussion with Margery Childe in the Monstrous Regiment
of Women regarding the difficulties of translating Deuteronomy
32:18 (In her 1920s Bible translated, "Of the Rock that begot
thee thou art unmindful, thou hast forgotten God that formed thee.")
The crux of the discussion is the difficulty of translating the
verb hul, which at least according to Laurie King through Mary
means not to form but "to twist" as in dance or in childbirth.
Even my Bible, which goes with a "God who gave you birth,"
translation, so Laurie can't be too far off, misses that sense
of God as begetter of children (masculine) and God as deliverer
of children (feminine). The point being that it's very difficult
to deal with translations.
Or as Mary says, "Interpreting the Bible without training
is a bit like finding a specific address in a foreign city with
neither map or knowledge of the language. You might stumble across
the right answer, but in the meantime you've put yourself at the
mercy of every ignoramus in town, with no way of telling the savant
from the fool."
For my part, I'm mostly interested in the translation which renders
women intermediaries who both listen to and speak with/for the
dead. Possibly because of that duality inherent in being a woman
(and no I don't have kids) that whenever a woman carries and gives
birth to a child, implicit within that birth is a death. Everything
that lives dies.
This is part of my interest in Persephone, who embodies that duality.
She is both a goddess of the Spring, when things are born, and
by her cyclic leaving to return to the earth that lies beneath
her mother's bounty, a goddess of Winter and Death.
A Slayer. One who slays and at yet by that slaying, saves.
BtVS, as a show, appears fascinated with duality. Two Xanders,
two Willows (Willow/vampWillow), two Buffys (Buffy/Buffybot).
Spinning out from actual duplications done a la Trinitarian three
times, we have characters who shift between human and inhuman
(Anya, Angel, Spike), alternate universes, and vampires themselves
who have both a human and a demon face. Then there are characters
that thematically parallel, the S3 to S6 thread plays with this
very nicely. Well, actually, I think they're into Dodecahedronism,
but that's rather a long argument.
At some point in all of the recent threads there was a comment
that one of the worst things, sorry I read it, didn't copy it
and now I can't figure out where I read it, that Buffy has done
over the course of the show is her fight with Faith. Xander certainly
seemed worried. I'll qualify that idea by saying that it is for
me one of her most horrifying act because it is an attack on the
self. Bitter, angry, misunderstood, the Other, whose path where,
but by the grace of choices, go I. And making some connections
between a number of shadowcat's comments in the S&M post Mark
II and paralleling something Rahael said in the movie of the week
thread, Buffy progresses from thrusting a phallic device into
random enemies (vampires), her lover (Angel), herself (Faith),
and refusing to do so in the S5 season finale (Dawn).
Instead she leaps into the void in a moment of epiphanic faith.
And because I really do want to respond to shadowcat's S&M thread,
some quotes from several places,
"Faith ironically doesn't really take control over her life,
until she surrenders to the inevitability of it by surrendering
to the police, breaking the cycle."
"It's not until the characters give up control, that they
actually get anywhere. Neither Spike nor Buffy have control in
their relationship. It's not until Buffy breaks it off that she
regains some, but even that's an illusion, because you never really
have control over someone else or what they do. Best you can hope
for is control over yourself."
"Buffy does the same thing in Normal Again - saves her friends
instead of letting them die. She ironically takes control of her
life, by surrendering as well. Letting her friends cure her with
the antidote. Instead of ignoring or trying to kill them. She
acknowledges that they are real, have feelings, can feel pain.
That they aren't figments of her imagination to be tortured at
will or are keeping her in Sunnydale to torture her. As a result
- Buffy begins to slowly break from her cycle of self-hate."
"And Buffy when she leaps to her death in the Gift. Both
deaths could be seen as a sort of sexual release: Buffy's falling
from the phallic tower, Faith's falling after being stabbed by
her surrogate father's phallic knife."
A sexual release in that Teresa of Avila sort of way.
Hmmm...how to say this, the Christ metaphor works for me in the
Gift precisely because both Buffy and Christ are human (or I suppose
dualistically both human and non-human at once) and the sacrifice
is a choice and yet at the same time a letting go of choice. Although,
I also agree with Rahael's comment concerning Buffy's sacrifice
as the ultimate in humanism. (I believe three impossible things
before breakfast and sometimes they are diametrically opposite.
It's all how you balance it in your head).
Unfortunately, Osirus, Odin, Dionysius, and so on don't work for
me because they're gods and not poor muddy humans like me, myself
and I.
Or if Christian imagery isn't useful for whatever reason (Hopefully
this a vague enough comment not to give anything away and seriously
why haven't you read American Gods yet anyway. Worried about spoilers,
skip this paragraph) like the central moment of sacrifice in American
Gods. Or in a more gender balanced sort of way and thus more emotionally
useful to me, the central moment of sacrifice in the Curse of
Chalion.
I hadn't really thought about it before, but two of the books
up for Hugos this year both reach for some of the same emotional
truths. (Connie Willis' Passage to a lesser degree).
The human reaching for the divine. Reaching for love. Caught for
a shining moment and then for good or ill returning to the hard
earth to try and figure it out all over again.
fresne - who as I write this just realized that last night (my
feet) were cold and it was dark, I put on one white sock and one
black sock. Perhaps that's why I'm feeling so dualistic.
[> Impossible things!
-- Rahael, 08:30:55 09/05/02 Thu
Agree, the Gift can be read in so many ways. And I'd like to see
it work on many different narrative levels.
"A Slayer. One who slays and at yet by that slaying, saves."
And I think this reaches right into the mystery of 'Love will
lead you to your gift'.
I tried to answer Anom's post in the Purple Tulip thread, and
eventually deleted my long and rambling reply, because what I
was trying to reach for is what you express here, so succintly.
Life and death, the ultimate dualistic pairing in the Buffyverse.
Each generation dies so that their children can live. We in a
real sense give birth because we are mortal, and that's the way
the species continues to survive. In season 5, Buffy loses her
mother, and is given responsibility for the next generation, Dawn.
And she decides to die so that Dawn could live. I've always seen
Glory as the 'bad mother' who wants to commit infanticide so that
she may benefit.
I also want to link in with your comments about Demeter by harking
back to an old post I made re a question about flowers on the
show. In the ep right before the Body, when Buffy comes home to
find her mother dead, she finds new flowers, and calls Joyce 'Flower
getting lady'. If Buffy is Persephone, Joyce here could be identified
with Demeter (even their second name, Summers alludes to this
briefly, though I could be totally reaching here - 'The summer's
flower is to the summer sweet/but to itself it only live and die').
But anyhow, flowers have often been used as symbols of mortality
- and they are symbols of reproduction too. And I think 'death'
as a concept in Sunnydale must be contrasted with the concept
of 'undeath' which is surely a curse. Death is human and natural.
Only the undead are not alive.
And surely that's the most powerful metaphor for Vampirism? They
are outside the cycle of life and death. As AtS showed in 'To
Shansu in LA', death is not a curse. It's what gives our lives
meaning. And this idea is amply demonstrated in 'The Body'.
[> [> Musings on creative
duality, but not recommended for the Tarot-suspicious ;-)
-- redcat, 12:28:46 09/05/02 Thu
Wonderful posts, fresne and Rah! Your musings on the duality
of death and life, their
presence each necessary for the another, sparked two images in
my brain. The first is the
black dot in the center of the white side and the white dot in
the center of the black side of the
traditional yin-yang symbol. The other, no doubt prompted by my
spate of recent work with the
cards, comes from Tarot. But since the series has occasionally
ref'd Tarot symbolism, perhaps
this isn't so OT after all. I'm reminded of the Three of Swords,
which in the Pamela Coleman
Smith-drawn Rider-Waite deck, is a picture of a red heart pierced
by three swords, dripping
blood. People often see the card as negative because the image
seems, on the surface, so
harsh. But it also represents the idea of conception, pregnancy,
that the egg and sperm must
each give up their egg-ness and sperm-ness, their individual identities,
in order to create the
third, the new, the embryo, the child, the future. During so much
of late season 5, especially
from Spiral through WotW and The Gift, the image of that card
would sneak into my brain - no
specific visuals within the show that I can remember, just the
impression of the idea that is
expressed in that card.
But then in The Grave, when Buffy finally hands Dawn a sword in
the underground battle with
the mud creatures, there is a moment, just a split second, when
their bodies form something
very like the crossed "X" of the Two of Swords card
in several older pre-modern decks. In this
card, rather than the two (two swords, two sides...) having to
each give themselves up in order
that the third might be "born," each maintains full
conscious awareness of the self and - either
cooperatively or challengingly - engages the other as a full equal.
This visual in the BtVS text
does seem pretty specific and conscious. I does seem to me that
somebody is paying
attention to the way (relatively) commonly-known metaphoric images
like the Tarot cards can
be used to help create meaning, for at least some of the audience.
The fluidity with which the
show moves through and uses metaphors and cultural images, from
religious to classical to
arcane ones, is among the main reasons the series has such a strong
hold on my imagination.
Interestingly, the Two of Swords card does not include the notion
of having to give up
something in order to gain something else. In fact, the card argues
for the act of creative
integration rather than creative sacrifice, for seeing - as do
many of us on this board - with
"two minds" simultaneously. Hopefully, the image is
a portent that Buffy and Dawn will be
able to communicate and understand each other better in S7 than
they did in S6.
[> Cigars -- Darby,
09:27:02 09/05/02 Thu
I'm going to do that annoying thread thing where I mostly ignore
what you've posted (like it, can't add anything substantive) and
focus on one itty-bitty detail: phallus symbolism.
In a world where guns are not the weapon of choice (but keep in
mind that Willow's torture of Warren had people talking about
the phallic bullet), you're pretty much stuck (heh) with long
pointy things. The fact that they're mostly made of wood doesn't
help matters, but when is the cigar just a way of doing (help!)
away with a bad guy? It just strikes me in the same vein of psychics
"you'll find the body near water" - almost any place
can be somehow connected to that if you try. And almost any use
of weaponry in the Buffyverse can be rendered in penile terms.
You might be able to make the same case for duality imagery as
well.
- Darby, who at least is not writing this with a pen.
[> [> Crystals, Stakes,
Cigars etc. -- Rahael, 10:00:13 09/05/02 Thu
Symbols gain their significance from their context. If Buffy had
been any other kind of show, I'd agree with you. But consider
the Vampire, consider Stoker's 'Dracula', where the Vampire steals
into the bedrooms of young women and sucks their blood. There
are clear sexual connotations there.
An ep in example would be 'Helpless'. The Villain, Kralik, has
issues with 'mothers'. He sees Buffy as a Little Red Riding Hood.
In a chilling scene, he even hides himself under the red cloak.
At the same time, Buffy's power is taken away by the patriarchal
Watcher's Council. Even rendered physically helpless, Buffy still
triumphs. Indeed with holy water which is, as some have pointed
out, quite a feminine symbol in comparison to the stake.
But the reason I mention that ep is because of the crystal-hypnotism
scene. The writer (can't remember at the moment if it was Fury
or Petrie) himself says 'look at all those big phallic crystals!'
So umm, I'm guessing if Petrie sees phallic symbols in crystals,
I don't think he or the other writers are going to miss playing
with the way the stake looks. Yes, sometimes it's just a way to
kill a villain. Sometimes, drowning is just a way to make Buffy
die, and come back to life. But it's also a baptism at the same
time. And when she drowns again in 'Bad Girls', it's referred
to again, quite specifically as a baptism.
So on a show like that, I can't see how they'd resist having a
girl carrying a stake, and killing monsters not refer slyly to
the phallic connotations. The show where Faith tells Buffy that
slaying makes her horny, and where Buffy's silent mime of staking
in Hush gets mistaken by everyone for something else entirely.
I'm not even going to start on 'Mr Pointy'!
[> [> [> Re: Crystals,
Stakes, Cigars etc. -- leslie,
10:23:16 09/05/02 Thu
I think we have to consider why it's the stake that's chosen as
Buffy's weapon of choice, though, because it *isn't* her only
option. Okay, it's easier to carry around than a sword, but Highlander
surely showed that it's possible to build an entire series on
the premise of decapitation rather than staking. Or she could
be really, really girly and go around spritzing vamps with holy
water from an industrial-strength atomizer and we would be talking
about the metaphors of those women in department stores who always
want to perfume you. Neither method lends itself to phallic imagery
as clearly as the stake does. And it isn't just the shape of the
stake but the fact that it must be used to penetrate the body
of the vampire in order to dust it. The sword, for instance, could
be interpreted as phallic in its shape, but its use is not so
explicit because if you're decapitating someone you're slicing,
not penetrating.
[> [> [> Yonic symbols
-- Cleanthes,
14:07:01 09/05/02 Thu
Well, cigars are sometimes just cigars, but not usually.
It does seem to me that the phallic symbolism gets commented
upon more, maybe, than it should, given the non-masculine preponderance
of the BtVS semiotic organon.
Buffy fell into a very vaginal place in `The Gift`, didn't she?
Seemed appropriate to me, given Glory's overfeminineness, and
given the excessive generative quality ascribed to the portal
opened by the key. And hey, keys usually have a phallic connotation,
but the very feminine Dawn opened the portal via yonic wounds
and an almost menstrual image. (it's always about the blood)
The First Slayer, much commented upon for her racial characteristics,
also demonstrated quite a few yonic characteristics - she enveloped
and she had earthy make-up and, well, gee, I need to go re-watch
`Restless`!
Still -- a challenge to the symbol-watchers - there was a lot
more, wasn't there?
[> [> [> [> Re:
Yonic symbols -- leslie,
14:19:13 09/05/02 Thu
Well, the way everyone seemed to be walking through tunnels struck
me as awfully vaginal.
Skip, Cordelia and Ascensions of a Different
Kind-spoilers for end of S3 and spec. -- Arethusa, 09:24:32
09/05/02 Thu
I have a theory that Skip in "Tomorrow" wasn't really
Skip. Following quote by psyche:
Skip: "Sorry. It's not the end. It's the beginning. You're
a great warrior, Cordelia. The battle that we're all a part of
is fought on many different planes and dimensions. You've outgrown
this one. You've become - a higher being."
Cordy: "Me?"
Skip: "You. You took on the visions, and even when you could
have traded them in for a happy, normal life, even when they were
killing you, you wouldn't let them go. The big test came when
the Powers made you part demon. They bet the farm on you. Power
corrupts. And they gave you a lot of power."
Cordy: "The glowy thing."
Skip: "Which you used well - to fight evil, and heal Connor."
Cordy: "And only that one time as a night light. - Bad dreams.
- Skip, I don't understand."
Skip: "I think you do."
Cordy: "It's ridiculous. - I'm just a somewhat normal girl
- who - has visions, glows, and occasionally blows things up with
her crazy new power. (Skip looks at her) I'm a higher being."
Skip: "Yes."
Cordy: "And when you say I've - outgrown this level, that
sort of implies..."
Skip: "You're moving on to a new one."
Cordy: "Now I'm really scared."
Skip: "I know. But I also know you're ready."
Cordy: "Oh, no, I'm not."
Skip: "Ah, the universe begs to differ. And deep down inside,
I think..."
Cordy: "Yes! All right? Stop saying I know! - Maybe I do
know. *Maybe.* If given enough time, I might even get *used* to
the idea, but - I don't have enough time, do I?"
Is Cordy really a great warrior? She's only been a seer for 1
1/2 years, and has just started training to be a warrior.
Has she outgrown this entire plane of existance? She's more enlightened
than she used to be, but to become a higher being surely takes
more time.
Her powers haven't had a chance to corrupt her yet-she hasn't
faced a great moral delimma re. using them. Also, both times she
became glowy Cordy it was inadvertant-not her choice at all.
Most of all, she only has visions of people in trouble, and she
had a vision of herself ascending. Has she been sold a bill of
goods? Did her ego help her believe she is worthy of Higher Being
status?
All responses, responses to responses, tangents and quips welcome-
as long as Spike is not mentioned ONCE. Take it or leave it!
[> That was very close to
my conclusion, too -- Masq, 09:32:45 09/05/02 Thu
When Groo tells Cordelia that she loves Angel, not him, Cordelia
tries to make sense of his claim. Then she sees a vision of herself
superimposed over her kitchen window. Her image-self says, "I
know it's right". Cordelia assumes her image is talking about
loving Angel, when in fact what she is seeing is a future version
of herself accepting Skip's offer to ascend to other dimensions
to fight evil. Why did Cordelia have this vision? Since it is
in fact not about Angel, it is at least possible it was meant
to mislead her. Would the Powers that Be deliberately mislead
their vision-girl?
And should Cordelia have accepted Skip's offer? The last time
Skip came to her, he told her that being an actress was her "true"
destiny, and he manipulated her into accepting it by showing her
Angel in a moment of frustration calling her a "weak Sunnydale
rich-girl". This time, Skip tells Cordelia that she's a great
warrior who has outgrown this dimension with the wise use of her
new powers. Now granted, Cordelia is a brave woman and she chose
to live with very painful visions (prior to being made part demon),
but she doesn't have full voluntary control over her powers that
Skip's flattery implies she has.
And Cordelia hesitates to take Skip's offer. She wants to be able
to tell Angel how she feels, and resents having to go with Skip
before she can do this. Then she realizes that this is a test.
But what is the correct response? She believes she has to accept
Skip's offer on Skip's terms (without seeing Angel first), or
fail the test. Meanwhile, the man her visions are meant to guide
is sinking into a literal abyss, and an abandoned friend is sinking
into an emotional abyss. Cordelia decides that the life she is
leaving behind will somehow come out all right without her, and
she is elevated away.
PS Isn't it too late, haven't you already mentioned the S-word
person yourself?
[> [> Re: That was very
close to my conclusion, too -- Arethusa, 09:42:37 09/05/02
Thu
Good point about the first Skip test. She did the right thing
despite him, not because of him.
The last time Cordelia was confused about what TPTB wanted, it
turned out that the messages came from W&H's employee. (That
Vision Thing)
And LOL-remember: He Who Won't Be Named is to be kept out of the
responses.
[> [> [> You'll get
no argument from me! -- Masq, 09:47:37 09/05/02 Thu
To quote Earl Allison, "I'm just sick of S----"
[> [> [> SKIP (sic)
-- MaeveRigan, 10:11:08 09/05/02 Thu
I believe it's been noted here before--maybe by Masq?--that although
he works for the PTB, Skip has several reasons to want to sabotage
Angel. Angel has defeated Skip's mission at least once ("Billy,"
for example). Didn't Skip say there would be a price to pay? Maybe
the damage Billy caused wasn't the only price. Skip could be exacting
his own revenge by misleading Cordy, thus sabotaging Angel's mission.
[> [> [> [> SKIP
(sic) -- alcibiades, 10:46:56 09/05/02 Thu
Yeah, that was my theory last year, after the show came out.
I still think it is interesting that Lurky was changed from a
red eyed demon in the text to a green eyed one in the show --
quite possibly as a way to disassociate the two with each other
if Skip turns out to be eevviill -- or at least capable of being
a vengeance demon when it comes to someone getting in the way
of the performance of his duties.
Not only that, Skip exacting vengeance on Angel through Cordy
in exactly the opposite way that Holtz did, by sending her to
heaven instead of Holtz sending himself and Connor to hell, is
a very interesting cap to an entire season of vengeance.
They both use intermediaries which ultimately serve the same purpose
-- to isolate Angel from the family he keeps on trying to build.
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: SKIP (sic) -- matching mole, 11:11:47 09/05/02 Thu
I don't have anything substantial to add to this discussion. I
agree that it seems highly plausible that the Skipster was not
feeding Saint Cordy a legitimate bill of goods.
However I would like to point out that Skip's name is only one
letter short of being an anagram of he-who-shall-not-be-named.
Just trying to match things up where ever I can - it's my name
after all.
[> [> [> [> [>
Very striking point -- Rahael, 11:32:24 09/05/02 Thu
[> [> [> [> Re:
SKIP (sic) -- yabyumpan, 11:28:11 09/05/02 Thu
I think she was misled by Skip but not necessarily with evil intent.
My theory is that she was taken to stop Angel having the 'perfect
happiness' moment. Fred had already commented twice that he was
'happy' because of Connor, they made a point out of Fred poking
him with a stake and saying 'but not to happy, I hope'. I think
the PTB may have figured that any mutual declaration of feelings
may have pushed the happiness quotant up to high and decided that
it was better for their champion to spend the summer with the
fishes than risk Angelus on the loose again.
As for Cordy, while I think Skip was definatly misleading about
her powers I do think that by her choosing to become part-demon
does give her champion status and may qualify her for higher being
status.
The main (only) problem for me with S3 was that Cordy's demonization
wasn't addressed well, if at all. What ever her motives were for
agreeing to it, it was still an amazing thing to do, esp for Cordy.
She agreed to become part-demon not knowing the conseqences. The
first thing she did was to check for horns and a tail, which for
me shows that, although I'm sure she didn't want them, she had
accepted that they might be a possibility. For someone who has
always be known for her vainity, that's a pretty huge evolution.
It just seemed to be accepted within AI that Cordy was now part-demon
which seems very OOC for everyone. I would have expected Angel
to freak and go guilt-tripping, Wesley to hit the books to try
to find out what sort of demon, Fred to babble on all excited
and ask a litany of questions and Gunn to be at least a bit wary
about what she might become; not to mention Cordy herself maybe
questioning her decision and possibly feeling a bit scared or
at least curious about what she was becoming.
We got nothing except a casual acceptance that she sometimes floats
and glows! I think if they had explored it more (at all), then
the end of 'Tomorrow' wouldn't have seemed so left of field. Because
AI (and ME) didn't seem to feel that her demonization was a big
deal, that attitude was passed onto the audience so that the thought
that she might be a 'higher being' comes across as being laughable.
I do think that it is a huge deal, whether she became part-demon
for the 'mission' or to save Angel from insanity, the fact is
she gave up part of her humanity, as far as we know, for ever.
I'm not saying that she was being entierly selfless, I do think
part of it is her need to be/feel important, esp to Angel, by
keeping the visions. Her acceptance of her 'higher being' status
I think is a mixture of ego and insecurity. She NEEDS to feel
special, I think part of that comes from NOT feeling special just
as she is. She may feel confident about her looks but I think
she's always wanted to be more than that. As pretty rich girl,
she was probably programed to be beautiful and marry well, that
was all that was expected of her. She wanted to be more than that
and actually do some good, hence hanging around with the Scoobies,
before and after Xander and then sticking with Angel and the 'mission'.
Anyway, just trying to get the whole Cordy Ascension thing into
some sort of perspective. I'm not sure about the whole 'Skip possibly
being evil' thing. Would he be powerful enough to to send her
floating up to the heavens without the PTB? I don't know....
[> [> [> [> [>
And what about the PTB? -- Robert, 15:28:57 09/05/02
Thu
>>> "Would he be powerful enough to to send her
floating up to the heavens without the PTB?"
Up to this point, we have assumed that the powers-that-be were
a force of good, maybe even God. But, might that also be a ruse?
The PTB are not mentioned at all in BtVS, just AtS. I originally
took this to mean that the mythologies were slightly different.
They may still be, but I'm now beginning to wonder if maybe the
PTB are possibly the greatest evil that Angel and his group has
yet faced.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Re: And what about the PTB? -- Freki, 07:27:31
09/06/02 Fri
The PTB were mentioned briefly in S2 BtVS, when Whistler showed
up in Becoming. From what Whistler said then, I got the impression
that the PTB were fairly neutral, and interested in keeping a
balance between good and evil rather than seeing either one triumph.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Re: And what about the PTB? -- Finn Mac Cool,
14:17:25 09/06/02 Fri
A story I'd like to see sometime is where Whistler tries to help
out a demon or vampire kill Buffy. Why? Because his job is to
"even the score between good and evil". Given that Buffy
and her friends have become much more effective evil fighters
since Becoming, removing her may be neccesary to keep the balance.
[> [> [> [> [>
That's one of my problems with S.3 -- Apophis, 16:56:59
09/05/02 Thu
Like you said, Cordy's demon status was bearly dealt with despite
being a major event. I think ME tried to cram too much into one
season: Connor/Holts, Groo vs. Angel for Cordy's affections, Gun
and Fred, Wesley's fall from grace, and Cordy being an angelic
demon. Maybe they should've saved some stuff for later.
[> [> [> [> [>
Spike? Who's that? Never heard of the feller. -- Slain,
17:10:34 09/05/02 Thu
I think Skip does work for the PTB, and I think he's being honest
about that, at least. The question for me is more Are the PTB
evil, good, both, or neither? I think yabyumpan is right in that
Cordy's ascension has a lot to do with keeping her away from Angel,
and I have a suspicion that, whatever the PTB's ends, her becoming
a higher being will help them more than her. Or perhaps I'm being
cynical, maybe the PTB really are good. But it does occur to me
that their name doesn't suggest good or evil, but rather that
they're simply The Ones Responsible - and surely that's no accident
by the writers. Perhaps not the opposite of evil, perhaps more
like Wolfram and Hart than any conventional notions of a benevolent
diety.
[> [> Re: That was very
close to my conclusion, too -- shadowkat, 11:49:57 09/05/02
Thu
S person? Skip? right? ;-)
Agree with both Masq and Aresthua. I've felt for some time that
ME was doing the big mislead with the whole Cordy ascending story.
Cordy's biggest flaw is her pride and vanity. "I deserve
to be an actress!" "I deserve better than this!"
"When will I stop being punished?" I think Cordy was
a little annoyed that Buffy got picked over her.
Okay this is sounding like bashing and I really don't mean it
to be. Cordy has come a long way. She does care about others and
she has struggled with the visions. But let's face it Skip played
to her ego in each episode in which he is featured. And Cordy
never has felt love is as important as doing good. Angel has sort
of taught her this by sacrificing his love for Buffy twice now.
She may believe that giving up Angel is her test, her sacrifice.
I think Cordy and Angel both got mislead in that episode.
And by people they had unwisely come to trust. Cordy by Skip and
Angel by Connor.
Will be interesting to see how they pay for their mistake.
We already know about Angel, can't wait to see about Cordy.
[> [> [> Re: That
was very close to my conclusion, too -- alcibiades, 12:34:08
09/05/02 Thu
Both got seduced and in the same way, by people playing to their
vanity and telling them what they wanted to hear.
[> [> [> [> So,
besides being Film Noir, AtS is also a Greek tragedy? -- redcat
-- just wondering..., 12:50:59 09/05/02 Thu
[> [> [> [> Also,
Lilah seducing Wesley -- Scroll, 13:40:20 09/05/02 Thu
Following the pattern you've described, Lilah is also seducing
Wesley by alternately praising his big brains and ridiculing his
attempts at goodness. She plays on his anger over his friends
'betraying' him, and on his failures. While Skip and Connor manipulate
Cordy and Angel by flattering them and praising their strengths,
Lilah takes the more insidious path by reinforcing Wesley's self-doubts.
I can't wait to see how our three main 'Angel' characters will
pull themselves out of these entrapments.
Scroll
[> [> [> [> [>
Minor spoiler for first ep of "Angel" season 4
-- Masq, 13:55:50 09/05/02 Thu
Yes, I'm normally spoiler-free, but this is hardly a spoiler.
It was just a quote from Charisma Carpenter that the first ep
of Angel this season is going to be really complex, with all sorts
of twists and turns.
Sounds like nothing will quite be as it initially appears.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Thanks, but I'm already *way* spoiled! -- Scroll,
14:02:08 09/05/02 Thu
I've been lurking at the Angel's Soul Spoiler board and have even
seen screen caps of the first episode. I am so excited, literally
dancing about (which is really bad cuz I'm still at work), but
I'm also kind of mad at myself because I swore to remain spoiler-free
this season! Well, that resolution has been thrown out the window.
Btw, the screen caps look really, REALLY good!
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Spoiler whoring myself, too. -- HonorH, 14:09:09
09/05/02 Thu
I saw some screencaps, too, and wow, do they look great! And does
Wesley look *HOT* with that short-short hair, or what? *Drooooool*
Aly may be fending off a lot of women when the new season begins.
I, too, swore I'd go spoiler-free this season, but it's an addiction,
y'know? Kinda like magic--or Spike!
(HonorH, running while Masq chases her with a thwapper)
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> Now cut that out! -- Arethusa, 14:14:26
09/05/02 Thu
I am trying very hard to be fairly spoiler-free and you
guys are making it much harder! Any more Wesley talk and I know
I'll scamper off to Spoiler Slayer like the trollop I was last
year.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> Plus HH mentioned he who shall not
be mentioned in this thread... -- Masq, 14:16:51 09/05/02
Thu
Slaps wrist of HH Bad, bad HH.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> You know I've been good on ATS - spoiler
cold turkey -- shadowkat, 17:21:14 09/05/02 Thu
Now I haven't been as good on Btvs, b/c I am hopelessly obsessed
with everyone's pet obsession's hence the refusal to name him.
But I'm not really spoiled there either, only
know tidbits for first two episodes.
Ats? Know zip outside of the promo at the end of Sunday's rebroadcast
of the Price. And I don't want to know anything. I think this
years Angel is going to kick ass and I have to say last years
Sleep Tight Through Forgiving converted me to taping Ats full
time. And I wouldn't have loved it nearly so much if I had been
spoiled. The jaw-dropping moment in Sleep Tight alone was worth
that.
Spoilers just about ruined last years Btvs for me. I'm still halfway
convinced that I would have enjoyed AYW and HB far more if I didn't
know everything that was going to happen ahead of time, same with
SR. Spoiler Trollops?
I hear your pain. But I've been cold turkey on Btvs as of Aug
20 and always cold turkey on Ats. Praying can stay that way.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> Re: You know I've been good on ATS
- spoiler cold turkey -- JM, 18:48:42 09/05/02 Thu
Whored, err. . . trolloped for the first time last year. Finales
just left me a total mess. Should have learned my lesson first
time round. Got my first Internet connection first season of AtS,
was looking for stuff on Glenn Quinn and was accidentally got
spoiled for Doyle's departure. Was devastated, plus had to spend
three weeks not telling my friend who lured me into the whole
Buffy mess. Hardest kept secret of my life. Cold turkey after
that. Luckily I wasn't spoiled for Wes's arrival, though possibly
one of only two fans who were thrilled by that development from
minute one.
Early last season I practiced zero discipline. Noticed with Bargaining
and That Old Gang of Mine that the impact of the eps was getting
a little dulled. "Billy" fixed me once and for all.
First big Wes ep of the season and I read my first and only ever
Wildfeed. And it ruined the ep. Still love it, but when I watched
it I spent the whole time thinking "If I hadn't know what
was coming, wouldn't that have been so much more . . ." Was
unspoiled for "Sleep Tight," "Forgiving,"
"SR," and "Villains." What a difference. Never
again.
I've even stopped visiting Angel's Soul board. The spoiler board
usually has great current season discussions, but this time of
year the spoilers are all in the topic headings, can't take the
chance. It just means so much more when the surprises are shocks:
"SR" and "Villains" was so much like "Bargaining"
(the Spike allying and the Angel staking and the Jenny fooling),
"Passion," and "Fool for Love." "Lullaby"
and "Sleep Tight" were so much like "Trial,"
Reunion," and "Reprise." The "I can't believe
they just did that" moment. Not to mention the last fifteen
minutes of "The Gift." I was shell-shocked for hours.
So just to get back on topic. Go girl on the non-trolloping. The
rewards are ephemeral and momentary, but all in all the memory
of shock is well worth the sacrifice. But I also know where the
falling to temptation comes from. I'm the kid who read the last
page of every mystery first. Though that's just basically confusing.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> LOL! thanks... -- shadowkat,
06:21:14 09/06/02 Fri
Yep I left Buffy Cross and Stake permanently because they spoiled
me on Seeing Red, Villians, Grave and Two-to-Go, they put the
spoilers in the subject lines. I knew the major shock events of
SR a month before they happened.
And I knew the big developments in Villains a month ahead of time
too. Never again. It does ruine the show. Big
time.
So here's how I'm trying to break it: writing incredibly long
essays analyzing the show and reading fanfic.
Understand reading ends of books. Used to do the same. Not any
more. And yep usually very confusing. Had an Aunt that wouldn't
buy a book that didn't have a happy ending. That's right, she'd
read the ending before buying it. LOL!
Someone gave me a lecture recently on how I shouldn't do this,
it ruines it for you. Stop. So...I am. But why does it feel like
I'm in withdrawl??
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> It's doubly hard for me -- HonorH,
19:35:07 09/05/02 Thu
as I don't get the WB up here. I have to have a friend ship me
tapes of Angel. So I won't be able to participate in all the lovely
Angel debates next season. *Sigh*
BTW, sk, great essays on S&M. I'm a little surprised you didn't
bring up Angel and Lindsey, though; Linds was practically the
poster boy for S&M sex with Angel on the fanfic circuit.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> Re: It's doubly hard for me
-- shadowkat, 06:25:11 09/06/02 Fri
Thanks, glad you enjoyed them.
I considered Angel and Lindsey but there wasn't enough to really
analyze effectively in the show and my essay was already 23 pages
long.
I guess i could try a part three considering I left out Wes and
Lilah, Lindsey and Angel, (did briefly mention Lindsey and Darla)
I miss Lindsey btw, was one of my favorite characters, Giles and
Ethan (though seemed sketchy),
and Anya. But got a bit burnt.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> Re: You know I've been good on ATS
- spoiler cold turkey -- SableHart, 19:45:31 09/05/02 Thu
I've even skipped watching the promos. Even the episode titles
are enough to get me wondering and itching to go find a good Spoiler
Site. Ditto for BtVS, although I'm primarily an AtS fan.
p.s. I don't like the S-word either! :)
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> Okay, okay! I'll go cold turkey too!
-- Scroll, 09:19:57 09/06/02 Fri
After reading shadowkat's (and everyone else's) experiences with
spoilers, I'll admit that being spoiled for Seeing Red kinda dulled
the impact for me. I knew what was gonna happen to Tara, and spent
most of the episode cringing every time she appeared on screen.
And I knew about "Daddy's home" and that was pretty
much spoiled for me. I think 'Angel' is better at keeping spoilers
out of the grasping hands of the public. My worship and adoration
of Wesley last season might have been slightly (but only slightly!)
less worshipful if I had known more about his story line. (Though
I heart those new screen caps of him! HonorH, you are *so*
right -- Aly better watch out cuz there's a growing legion of
Wes-fans who wanna take poor scruffy!Alexis home and feed him
up with baked goods.)
I am going to be brave and refrain from reading any more spoilers
for 'Angel'. Maybe I'll do it for 'Buffy' too. (I find that ME
drops more big bombshells in 'Angel' than 'Buffy', I so don't
worry as much about being spoiled for the Buff.
Scroll (who will be strong!)
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> It's not that easy... -- Masq,
13:52:57 09/06/02 Fri
I am a spoiler-free type, but even I knew what was going to happen
to Tara. Spoilers of that kind sort of ooze from people's subject
lines, no matter how coy they think they're being.
And of course, someone actually put it in the subject line and
guess who had the job of erasing it before EVERYbody saw it??
: )
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> Yours is a thankless job (until
we remember to thank you. Thanks!) -- Scroll, 19:14:44
09/06/02 Fri
Sad to say, I'm already spoiled for up to 5 eps of 'Angel'. It
all started innocently enough. Dubdub posted some screen shots
on her website and I took a little peep. Then someone posted a
link to AICN's spoilers, I read a few interviews, and ba-da-bing!
I've been spoiled. (Though really most of what I know should properly
be called speculation. But still.) It's so hard to stay away from
the spoiler boards, however. The 'Angel' finale was such a mondo
cliff-hanger that we've all been going stir-crazy waiting for
Season 4. Thank God for fanfic or I wouldn't have survived the
summer.
[> [> [> Re: That
was very close to my conclusion, too -- JM, 16:15:10 09/05/02
Thu
I haven't invested all my hope in a mislead yet. I don't want
to get disappointed if we're wrong and I'm committed to liking
what the show chooses to give me. I find it however a very emotionally
satisfying explanation.
I've been wondering if Cordy is not if fact paying a Karmic price
for her choice in Pylea. Her decision well may have upset the
ordained order of things. (Skip talking about how the Powers have
a hard time coping with love and free will.) It seems that it
was a religious society, although deeply creepy, and committed
and connected to the PTB. According to their prophecy those aren't
actually Cordy's rightful visions, they now should belong to Gru.
And Cordy's reasons for keeping them were a mixture of noble and
egoistic, although undeniably brave, considering what we saw of
her increased suffering starting in "Dead End."
Gru might have been meant to have them so that he could be a better
transitional monarch, combining as he did both demon and cow blood,
and having a moral center, but also a deep reverence for the culture.
We don't really know how things are going in Pylea. Although as
non-monarchists, many of us, we should probably applaud the abolition
of the Pylean monarchy, conditions may currently be a little French
Revolutiony right now, or even a little Red Octobery.
And then she was possibly given a second chance to give them back
by Gru's unlikely arrival. And failed. Just spec. Great stuff
about the mirror flattery though.
Like the idea about Greek tradgedy too. Although there is a lot
of pain on BtVS, there does seem to be a sense that good is ultimately
rewarded and evil vanquished, at least a little. Not so much on
AtS, even though the PTB seem much more actively involved. Good
and bad are punished, and bad sometimes rewarded, but good rarely
rewarded (though there was Kate's rescue). The good are not unappreciated,
it just seems the PTB reward them with further painful opportunities
to do good, and if they're really lucky lay down their lives.
Hard gods.
[> [> [> [> Re:
That was very close to my conclusion, too -- Apophis, 17:08:58
09/05/02 Thu
I don't think the Pylean theocracy was the ordained order of things.
For one, they appeared to be at least connected with an incarnation
of Wolfram and Hart, who we know aren't working for the PTB (what
with the hacked visions and all). If Cordy is, in fact, being
misled (which I do believe is a rather strong possibility, now
that it's been mentioned), I would think either that Skip has
his own agenda or that the Powers have a real roundabout way of
doing things.
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: That was very close to my conclusion, too -- JM, 17:42:55
09/05/02 Thu
I was thinking more that the the ordained order was for Gru to
replace the theocracy, but then lead a splendid long rule of peaceful
transition that would culminate in a figurehead government of
a stable constitutional monarchy. Like England, maybe. The talk
of committees made me a little nervous.
While the priests may very well have been an incarnation of W&H,
the demon society seemed in their souless seemed way to be pious
and honorable. They managed to produce Gru, Landok, and Lorne.
And they talked about Cordy's arrival as the restoration of the
monarchy. Indicating that the priestly caste had not always been
the way of things.
[> [> [> [> Divine
Intervention -- Malandanza, 18:50:14 09/07/02 Sat
"I've been wondering if Cordy is not if fact paying a
Karmic price for her choice in Pylea. Her decision well may have
upset the ordained order of things. "
I agree with Apophis, Pylea upset H&H's plans, not the PTB.
Recently, we've seen W&H (via the demon girl in the white room)
associated with order, rather than chaos. Cordelia introducing
chaos into a system doesn't necessarily mean she helps either
W&H or the PTB.
However, I wonder if Angel is paying a sort of karmic price. He
has tampered with black magic in a big way -- especially in his
dealings with the W&H demon girl. Not the best behavior for a
champion of good.
It doesn't seem as though the PTB (or the senior partners, for
that matter) can directly intervene in human affairs. There was
no thunderbolt out of the blue blasting Angel's car when he drove
off to watch Darla and Dru kill the lawyers. All they did was
send a vision to try to get Angel to swerve from his path (or
have Angel's friends pull him from his path). They seem to be
able to see possibilities -- if this happen, then something else
will occur, but not predict the future with perfect accuracy (that
pesky free will...) -- they can suggest and encourage. In this
case, they saw that Angel would spend the summer locked in a chest
at the bottom of the ocean contemplating the choices that led
him there if they could prevent Cordelia from reaching him --
so they influenced Cordelia to punish Angel.
[> [> That skip ... I
don't trust that Skip -- SpikeMom,
19:54:48 09/05/02 Thu
I posted something on this topic a few days ago on the Angel Spoiler
Board. I'm thinking that Skip is/was a sort of cosmic Rent A Cop
for the PTB when he was guarding Billy. He didn't seem all righteous
about his job, more a take it or leave it kind of attitude. His
interactions with Cordelia may be a way to get back at Angel for
causing him to get fired or get a poor job reference. He first
appealed to Cordelia's human vanity as a way to separate her from
Angel. When she chose the demon aspect to "Help the Helpless"
over the glamor life, Skip changed tactics. He appeals to her
vanity over helping the helpless, and Cordy falls for it. Cordy
takes the express elevator to who really knows where and Skip
gets his payback when Angel goes deep sea diving w/o Cordelia
to round up the cavalry.
Also, anyone notice how the PTB aren't called the Powers That
Be Good (or Evil)? They just Be.
Sorry about the posting name reference!
[> [> [> An alternate
possibilty... -- KdS, 04:46:59 09/06/02 Fri
Rather than assume Skip has his own agenda, which I think is just
a little too plot-complicating, how about the possibility that
Cordy failed the test, choosing ego over love and loyalty? Wonder
what sort of chance she'll be given to make amends.
On the other hand, I have been a little suspicious about the PtB
since the White Room scene in "Forgiveness", given that
the Red Girl made such a big deal about hating Chaos. Could we
be dealing with a Michael Moorcock influence here? W&H = PtB =
something along the lines of Moorcock's Singularity (or Philip
Pullman's Authority, or a Gnostic Demiurge)?
[> Re: Skip, Cordelia and
Ascensions of a Different Kind-spoilers for end of S3 and spec.
-- Miss Edith, 06:18:57 09/06/02 Fri
Cordelia never struck me as so enlightened she was above the rest
of us lowly humans. I would have thought her journey was nowhere
near completion. When she is meant to be becoming more saintly
in late season 3 she has little compassion for Wesley, and doesn't
care if Holtz dies. She does little to help strangers in that
time and is pretty oblivious to poor Groo's feelings as she is
practically flirting with Angel in front of him. She specically
says all she cares about is Angel and he was the reason she received
demon DNA. Therefore she did not act from morality but from love.
Surely the series has already shown us that acting from love is
not always enough? As a higher being Cordy needs to have compassion
for all of humanity regardless of whether she loves them and their
family (Angel and Conner). Her attitude towards her friend Wesley
causes me to doubt this is the case. I never understood Skip praising
Cordy for not misusing the powers she was given. That just might
me because she never understood how to use them in the first place.
Hardly a case of her overcoming temptation.
As a messenger for the powers that be Doyle specifically said
he was only the messanger and Angel was the true champion. Going
by that the only really noteworthy behaviour from Cordy according
to the powers that be is that she choose to become a demon and
has so far used her powers for good. But surely the powers would
need more than a few months to test Cordy? Cordy has only just
received her powers and really doesn't have a clue on how to use
them.
I felt that Skip was playing into her ego. I thought it was interesting
how quickly Cordy was able to accept that she was worthy of higher
being staus. Her pride could well have been her downfall. If the
writers really did expect the audience to see Cordy as a higher
being I feel they made a misjusgement.
[> [> Re: Just wanted
to add... -- Miss Edith, 06:24:31 09/06/02 Fri
I do feel Cordy is a good person so my criticism of her may have
come across as nitpicky and needlessly harsh. But if we are judging
her as a higher being we need to raise our standards and expect
more from her. She should be above other human beings in her behaviour
if she has outgrown this plane of existence. Frankly I have never
seen her as more compassionate than Fred for example.
[> [> [> The Cordy
Glowy thing -- yabyumpan, 18:33:33 09/06/02 Fri
Before 'Tomorrow', both times we've seen Cordy do the Glowy thing
was when she was in danger (the slugs and Connor). When she glowed
in 'Tomorrow', there doesn't appear to be any immediate danger
and then Skip shows up.
Could it be that the Glowy thing wasn't actually HER power at
all but the PTB's working through her to save her from danger
for some reason. She doesn't appear to have any control over her
power at all, she can't summon it at will or use it at her choosing
(to close the rift from Quartof) (sp). When she went back into
her vision in 'Benediction', she said she didn't know how she
did it she just went back in.
It seems that instead of just making her 'part demon' in 'Birthday'
the PTB actually made her into some sort of 'Puppet' for them.
Using her as some sort of vessel.
Not really sure where I'm going with this but it just struck me
as strange that she did the glowy thing in 'Tomorrow' when she
wasn't under any obvious threat, esp as time stood still as well
(well on that highway anyway).
It does seem as if she has been manipulated by the PTB, Angel
as well. Why would Cordy get a vision so that Angel could save
Justine?
Whether the PTB are good or evil remains to be seen but it does
seem to me as if they have been playing all of AI for their own
ends.
Can't wait to see how it turns out ;-)
[> [> [> [> Who
says it was to rescue Justine? -- Earl
Allison, 14:13:16 09/07/02 Sat
I sneakily interpreted that vision as saving WESLEY (and leaving
him ambiguous for the viewers), not Justine. Because if Angel
and Connor hadn't shown, Wesley would have been forced to either
choose to HELP Justine, or let her die -- which would have made
him take a hard stance on how he stood. This way, we still don't
REALLY know which side Wesley is on.
Sneaky sneaky :)
Take it and run.
[> [> [> [> [>
Good point (Season 4 speculations) -- Scroll, 19:28:28
09/07/02 Sat
I thought the same thing, especially with Lilah looking all curious
at Angel saving the woman who helped send his son to hell, then
looking shocked when Wesley informs her that the teeny-bopper
beside Angel *is* his son. I love that the writers are keeping
Wesley deliberately ambiguous. Hope it continues for a while into
Season 4, until they reveal that Wesley's been working secretly
in front of our faces all the time (either by being scruffy rogue
demon hunter guy or determined Watcher prophecy translator guy).
Of course, he could really be going evil and working for Wolfram
& Hart.
Dilemma -- Darby, 07:35:19 09/06/02
Fri
We've seen Dawn and Riley "hook up" with vampires that
took no overt action against them (well, with Dawn, the hand was
forced so we can't know what he would have done otherwise). Holtz'
vamped daughter seemed very much like his daughter until she immolated.
She didn't seem to have vamped with the starting bloodlust we've
been led to believe is the norm.
What would Buffy do if, upon emerging from the grave, a vamp looked
around and just asked perplexedly, "What's going on? Who
are you and why are you holding that pointy stick?" Could
she extend the same compassion she gave the Aprilbot, which actually
tried to kill her? Would she quip and stake and not give it a
second thought?
And if this hypothetical vamp was not automatically homicidally
predatory, how would that affect the Buffy mythos? Is this a story
that could be done without the show tumbling down around it?
- Darby, thinking how the emergence of Billy Fordham could have
been very different (who knows what a brain tumor might
do to the process?).
[> Re: Dilemma -- Apophis,
07:54:33 09/06/02 Fri
I think that, in such a situation, it would be best for everyone
if the vampire died on the spot, regardless of temperment. A)
There's no guarentee that the vampire won't develop bloodlust
later (maybe he's just a late bloomer?). Would you want your family
slaughtered because you thought a monster was the exception to
the rule? and B) Personally, if it were me, I'd want the vampire
version of myself destroyed. I know immortality is an attractive
concept to a lot of people out there, but what are you willing
to give up for it? No sunlight, no reflection (hell for a vain
person), can't go near a cross, can't taste food right... plus
the constant desire to kill your friends (even without an intrinsic
bloodlust, you've still gotta eat; even Angel, on a steady diet
of animal blood, still gets tempted every now and then and who
among us has his willpower?). That, and maybe a little spitefulness
towards the monster wearing my body.
P.S.- The "loose end" vampires have always bothered
me. Yeah, I know VampWillow wore Willow's face, but how do you
think the residents of the the BizzaroWorld would react after
finding out they sent her back to their world because she was
just too damn cute to die (See HonorH's Terra Incognita, by the
way). Then there's Harmony out there, who tried to kill the former
best friend who let her live. I'm just not that forgiving.
[> [> Re: Dilemma
-- shadowkat, 08:02:13 09/06/02 Fri
"P.S.- The "loose end" vampires have always bothered
me. Yeah, I know VampWillow wore Willow's face, but how do you
think the residents of the the BizzaroWorld would react after
finding out they sent her back to their world because she was
just too damn cute to die (See HonorH's Terra Incognita, by the
way). Then there's Harmony out there, who tried to kill the former
best friend who let her live. I'm just not that forgiving."
1. VampWillow died the moment she returned to Bizarro World, it
was the ironic twist. So no loose end there.
2. Never understood Harmony. I think the writers just can't kill
her. There are the vamps the writers can't kill:
Dru and Harmony. They take leaps and bounds to avoid it.
Darla has been killed twice now. Apparently they don't like her
that much. (shrug). Personally I prefer Darla to Dru and Harmony
but that's just me. And I do really miss her.
3. Sheila seems to still be alive.
4. Riley killed Sandy created by VampWillow.
[> [> [> VampWillow
-- Apophis, 10:04:49 09/06/02 Fri
My point about VampWillow (and other "loose ends" by
extention) is that nobody KNEW that she would be killed immediately
upon her return. For all they knew, she'd go back and commit unspeakable
atrocities for the rest of time. It's not like VampWillow learned
a very special lesson while in the conventional Jossverse and
decided to renounce her demonic ways. My point is the same with
Harmony in Disharmony and Spike and Dru at the second season's
end: as long as the vampires aren't killing people within their
jurisdiciton, both the Scoobies and AI seem okay with it. If they
make the vampire promise to go off to Minnesota, it can feed til
its unbeating heart is content without worry of reprisal while
the heroes sleep the sleep of the just.
Understand, I'm not bashing any characters or either show; I'm
just saying that "out of sight, out of mind" isn't a
very responsible way to deal with the undead.
[> [> [> [> Re:
VampWillow -- shadowkat, 11:18:56 09/06/02 Fri
Agree. Made no sense why they didn't just stake Vamp Willow.
Spike? Well she had made a truce with him to kill Angelus.
And she didn't exactly have time to kill him in Becoming, she
was busy with Angelus at the time and by the time she did? They
were long gone. When Spike returned? She wanted to kill him, but
Angel stopped her because he had kidnapped her friends and by
the time she figured out where they were, he took off again and
was long gone. So actually the not staking Spike makes sense.
Then in Season 4? He's chipped and harmless from her pov. (The
writers did their best job on that one.)
Dru? She didn't get the chance. In Crush? When did she have time?
She was tied up and in Spike's custody. When she was let go, Dru
was long gone. As far as we know she could have gone hunting for
her and came up empty. (Someone posted on this a while back).
So no, Buffy never willingly let Dru go. Even in Becoming, she
didn't exactly get an opportunity - hands full fighting Angelus
at the time. Spike was fighting Dru. If it weren't for Spike,
she would have probably been fighting Dru and Angelus.
Harmony? This is a hard one. I'm not sure why Buffy didn't stake
her. Maybe she just couldn't find her. Harmony does ask Spike
to hide her, which he does. And Buffy did look a little bewildered
to see Harmony in Crush. So it is possible that just because we
knew where Harm was, Buffy didn't. If she did? HArm would have
been dead. And like Dru, by the time Buffy gets out of Spike's
clutches - HArm is long gone. Now why they never told Cordy about
Harm, I don't know.
Cordy not staking HArm may have more to do with her past feelings
for her friend and the sadness she feels for not being able to
reform her. I felt that scene in Disharmony was actually the biggest
stretch. But why they didn't hunt her down? What makes you think
HArm was still in town?
Again probably couldn't find her. Vamps are supernatural and pretty
dang strong and very resilent after all. It's not like killing
a wild dog.
Why Angel didn't just stake Dru and Darla instead of burning them?
They are awfully strong and he tried twice.
He probably intended to burn them to death but failed.
Then Dru took off and he couldn't find her. And Darla? He felt
guilty about, because he used her.
VampWillow is the only one that really makes no sense, except
maybe they figured killing her would mess with another universe's
timeline and that was wrong? She's not their responsibility after
all.
[> [> [> [> [>
Setting Dru & Darla on fire -- Scroll, 12:03:02 09/06/02
Fri
Actually, I think it's impled that Angel wanted to *hurt* Dru
and Darla, but wasn't ready to kill them just yet -- hence setting
them on fire instead of pulling out the stakes and crossbows.
His decision to go for 'hurt' instead of 'kill' speaks directly
to why Buffy didn't stake VampWillow -- because here is a demon
that wears the face of a friend/family. Angel had to harden his
heart against his girls before he could really kill them.
As for sparing Harmony, Cordy's decision plays directly into the
story arc of the time, which is that even people who claim to
love you, that even your friends, will betray you. The question
is whether you can forgive them and rebuild. I agree that Cordy
should've killed Harm because she's still a vamp (as argued by
Wes and Angel), but Cordelia had just gone through a terrible
time and wasn't in the best place (emotionally) to kill an old
friend (re: Buffy not killing Angelus in 'Innocence').
I think 'Angel' generally defines "evil" more ambiguously
than 'Buffy', especially regarding demons. But the stance on both
shows is that vampires, without the benefit of souls, cannot understand
goodness/make the choice to be good. Spike, even though he'd done
many good things, recognised that as a soulless vampire, he was
limited in his capacity to be good. Hence his trek to Africa.
So I also agree that not staking VampWillow was a bad decision.
Sentiment probably didn't do Bizzaroworld Oz and Larry any good.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Re: Setting Dru & Darla on fire -- anom, 23:47:43
09/08/02 Sun
"Actually, I think it's impled that Angel wanted to *hurt*
Dru and Darla, but wasn't ready to kill them just yet -- hence
setting them on fire instead of pulling out the stakes and crossbows."
I think he did intend to kill them. How could he know they'd
find a hydrant in time to douse the flames before they burned
to dust...or maybe ash in this case. Fire, esp. the way Angel
used it, isn't necessarily any less sure a way of killing a vampire
than stakes or crossbows, which require more accuracy. Didn't
Angel get to the point where he felt able to dust Darla ("Now
I'm ready"--& no I'm not going to search for it when
I don't even know the ep title) before that scene? I'm sure someone
will let me know if I'm wrong.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Requested quote -- Malandanza, 10:39:06
09/09/02 Mon
("Now I'm ready"--& no I'm not going to search for
it when I don't even know the ep title) before that scene? I'm
sure someone will let me know if I'm wrong.
It's from Redefinition. At the beginning of the episode,
we have Angel thinking:
ANGEL (V.O.) I'm not ready yet, not strong enough. Too many
years spent sleeping in soft beds, living in a world I don't belong
to. I can't fight them like this. And Wolfram and Hart knew that.
but before the end of the first half, he changed his tune (after
slaughtering four vamps)
ANGEL (V.O.) I'm ready.
However, I still don't think he intended on killing Dru and Darla
that night --he just wanted them to know he was "in the game"
(as Faith might say). For all his talk, Angel wasn't really fighting
a war. He was engaging in terrorism against the terrorists. More
like a mob war than a real war of annihilation.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> thanks, mal! -- anom, 16:43:14 09/09/02
Mon
I'm not sure if he changed his tune or just got to the point where
he did feel ready.
"However, I still don't think he intended on killing Dru
and Darla that night --"
I thought he did...but then again he didn't stick around to make
sure, did he?
[> [> [> Re: Dilemma
-- HonorH, 11:06:51 09/06/02 Fri
The point being, s'kat, that they didn't know VampWillow would
be killed the second she arrived in the Wishverse. Apophis was
referring to a point in my story "Tara Incognita" in
which Wishverse Tara discovers they sent VampWillow, who killed
her lover, back instead of killing her. She goes ballistic, and
there's really nothing any of the others can say--they did send
her back, knowing she was a killer.
The story, btw, is here.
(Thanks for the rec, Apophis!)
[> [> [> [> Re:
Dilemma -- shadowkat, 11:27:01 09/06/02 Fri
Reason they sent VampWillow back was for same reason that
Star Trek does it - it is bad mojo to mess with AU.
You have no clue what importance the character has in it.
If VampWillow hadn't been sent back, maybe OZ would have staked
himself? They have no way of knowing what role VampWillow plays.
A better example? What if Angelus got trapped in Wishverse and
Buffy slayed him instead of sending him back to Buffverse? No
Angel. Messing with events in other universes is bad mojo.
Although in theory? I agree. I thought their argument for not
killing VampWillow was very weak and possibly very good forshadowing
for how they'd deal with Darkwillow. Excellent foreshadowing actually.
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: Dilemma -- Sebastian, 11:34:22 09/06/02 Fri
I often thought the Scoobs couldn't kill her because of the fact
that she was physically identical to Willow.
Think about it - killing the exact replicate of yourself or your
best friend, vampire or no, is no mean feat. Would be rather creepy
and unsettling, I would imagine. It doesn't excuse their laxity
- but makes it understandable.
But hey - I could be wrong...
- S
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Re: Dilemma -- Finn Mac Cool, 14:07:28 09/06/02
Fri
I suggest, on the issue of VampWillow, that people read Masq's
episode synopsis of The Wish and Dopplegangland. They explain
it better than I can.
[> [> Re: Dilemma
-- Sebastian, 08:46:16 09/06/02 Fri
I would have to agree with Apophis. While we have seen vampires
that did not immediately display a bloodlust - its bound to emerge
eventually. As a matter of fact, we have both the words of a Watcher
and a vampire to confirm this.
Giles: ìA vampire isn't a person at all. It may have
the movements, the, the memories, even the personality of the
person that it took over, but i-it's still a demon at the core,
there is no halfway.î
Angel: ìWhen you become a vampire the demon takes your
body, but it doesn't get your soul. That's gone! No conscience,
no remorse...
- Both quotes from 'Angel', Season 1 (courtesy of Psyche's transcripts).
It stands to reason that no matter what the original emotional
and psychological template for the person vamped, the person's
soul is gone and the demonic urgings will eventually
take over. No matter who that person is.
Addendum: To go back to the suggestion that Billy Fordham's vamping
may have been atypical - we are going under the assumption that
he would still be afflicted by a medical condition as corpse.
From what we have seen, many vampires exhibit above average strength,
healing, etc. But more importantly, he's medically dead
as a vampire, so he wouldn't be afflicted by medical ailments
the way a non-vamped (and living) human would be.
- S
[> [> [> Re: Dilemma
-- Vickie, 09:08:19 09/06/02 Fri
Then again:
Buffy: (reassuringly) Willow, just remember, a vampire's personality
has nothing to do with the person it was.
Angel: (without thinking) Well, actually... (gets a look from
Buffy) That's a good point.
[Doppelgangerland, thank you Psyche]
The true vampire nature is still a matter of ambiguity. We may
never really know.
[> [> [> [> Dopplegangerland
Quote -- Sebastian, 09:58:41 09/06/02 Fri
I think that quote was to imply that the formerly living person's
personality serves as a 'template' for the vampire - the vampire
is going to display the characteristics of the formerly
living person, but nopt actually be the person.
It is still a vampire, and will thus eventually snack on
the living populace.
The true vampire nature is still a matter of ambiguity.
The true nature of vampire is to feed. Which means feeding on
and/or killing the living.
- S (not trying to be argumentative, merely a devil's advocate).
:-)
[> [> [> [> [>
Don't think we're really arguing -- Vickie, 12:13:55
09/06/02 Fri
At least, I don't think so.
I agree that a vampire, regardless of the human he was (or is
still under the covers, or is based upon), will hunger for human
blood and will want to feed. No argument here.
Where I believe that the Jossverse vampire's nature is ambiguous
is in whether the vampire is still the same person that the human
was. Watcher Council canon is that the human soul is gone. Shorthand
interprepretation in both series has been that the vampire is
a completely different person from the human. Angelus is not Angel
(or Liam).
Why, I ask, does Angel feel guilty then?
I think the Doppelgangerland quote indicates this ambiguity. Angel
was about to say something that contravened canon, and Buffy stopped
him for Willow's sake. You can believe he would have said "template."
We don't have any data.
I think we've seen enough vampires on these shows to make use
wonder. I think the vampire nature is much more complex than the
nice clean "it's ok to dust them without thought" version
the WC hands out.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> The identity of a vampire -- Apophis, 16:10:27
09/06/02 Fri
There's a science fiction book by Larry Niven in which a telepathic
human accidentally absorbs the memories of an ancient, telepathic
alien. The human, now possessing two sets of memories, assumes
the alien's are his since they're older and stronger. Thus, he
believes that he is the alien.
My point? Working from the assumption that a vampire is a seperate
entity from the human it was, it is possible that Angel feels
guilty for Angelus' crimes because he remembers being the Scourge
of Europe for 150 years. He remembers everything Angelus did vividly,
as though he were there doing it (which some say he was, but that's
not my point). Thus, he feels guilty for Angelus' actions. Perhaps
Angel himself is unsure of his identity as, up to this point,
he's been the only souled vampire in existence; the whole thing
is a new experience on a universal level.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Re: Don't think we're really arguing -- Majin Gojira,
17:45:54 09/06/02 Fri
Remember, the personality influences what a person is like as
a vampire. Remember Jesse, his personality became much more agressive,
but influences of the old Jesse were still in there (Going after
Cordy for instance). How about Dalton, he carried over his love
of books. Harmony was vapid before she was a vamp and she remained
vapid afterwards with a pinch of predatory instinct. Liam was
a womanizing drunkard before, as Angelus, his womanizing was mutated
into utter malevolence towards women: Dru and Buffy being prime
examples...anyone else just get reminded of Warren?
For me, their is no debate. The Personality traits of the person
might be their, but their is little or no will to do good in them.
Joss clearly stated that a human soul "Tends to" lead
towards good, and a demon Soul "Tends to" lead towards
evil. throw in the predatory urging, and evil will win out. Take
away that predatory need, and we get Spike's situation...which
is really at the crucks of this argument. The other vampires mentioned
do not fit the bill as well.
Well, that's my two cents.
Majin Gojira
------------
"I am POOP DOG! Tha Gangsta Specta of Defeat!"
[> So how would you suggest
Buffy handle the newly-risen? A vampire triage unit? -- cjl,
09:31:41 09/06/02 Fri
(Sunnydale cemetary. Night. The earth from a recently filled grave
heaves and pushes upward; a hand thrusts out into the warm, evening
air. The vampire emerges from his grave--he is (or was) 19 years
old, dressed in the suit his mother bought for him when he was
14. There is a moment of disorientation, as he realizes he still
exists but no longer needs to breathe. But before his senses adjust,
a small, but blindingly fast and agile blonde girl pounces on
him, stake in hand. It's the closest contact with a female he's
ever had...)
BUFFY: Sorry, Sheldon. Nothing personal.
SHELDON: Buffy? (Buffy rears back with the stake.) Wait a minute,
w-what are you doing?! That's going to hurt!
BUFFY: Well, duh.
SHELDON: Geez, I know we didn't get along in chem lab, but I didn't
think you held a grudge.
BUFFY: Sheldon, this has nothing to do with chem lab. You vampire,
me Slayer. Kinda my job to stop you before you start snacking
on the populace.
SHELDON: Vampire? (Feels the bumps on his forehead.) Oh. B-but
I don't want to snack on the populace! How can I drink blood?
I'm lactose intolerant!
(Buffy climbs off him.)
BUFFY: Really? You don't want to lunge for my juicy, throbbing
jugular?
SHELDON: What? No! Ew!
BUFFY: Huh. (Ponders for a moment, then calls out behind her:)
Will! We've got another one!
(Willow emerges from the mists, wearing a jacket with the initials
"SVRP" on the breast pocket, takes Sheldon by the hand,
and sits him down on one of the nearby gravestones.)
WILLOW: Oh wow. Sheldon, I'm so glad you made it back without
all the bloodlust. You were doing so much good work for the UC
Sunnydale biotech department, it'd be a shame if you couldn't
keep going with it.
SHELDON: Keep going? But...if I'm a vampire, that means I'm dead,
right?
WILLOW: Well, yeah...technically. But just because you're dead,
doesn't mean you can't be a productive member of society. That's
what the program is all about.
SHELDON: The program?
WILLOW: The program. (Points to the initials on her jacket.) "Sunnydale
Vampire Reformation Program." (Takes out a clipboard.) We
take vampires who don't pose any immediate threat to society,
and try to re-integrate them into the community. We offer counseling,
blood stamps, shelter, you know, the whole works.
SHELDON: That's...amazing. Sounds expensive, though.
WILLOW: Yeah, we had a little problem getting it off the ground
at first, but then the Sunnydale Chamber of Commerce chipped in
on the sly, and Xander's construction firm gave us this HUGE donation,
and we got this corporate sponsorship from the F/X channel, which
has just been a lifesaver, let me tell you...
SHELDON: So what do I do?
WILLOW: Well, first, fill out this questionnaire--you know, date
of rising, level of bloodlust, sire...the usual. Then, we'll get
you into a halfway house until one of our counselors can come
to see you.
SHELDON: Willow...no offense...but does this actually work?
WILLOW: Sure it works.
(Hands Sheldon a leaflet with the SVRP logo on top. The leaflet
has a picture of Spike on the left side, with a quote on the right:
"I was the scourge of Europe until the kind people at SVRP
taught me how to truly live again. God bless you, SVRP.")
SHELDON: Cool.
WILLOW: He's teaching poetry at Sunnydale High as we speak.
(Meanwhile, Buffy is sitting by Sheldon's graveside, idly twirling
her stake.)
BUFFY: Sigh. I miss the old days....
[> [> Ow. I hurt myself
laughing. My boss is looking at me funny. =) -- Scroll, 09:41:08
09/06/02 Fri
[> [> LMAO! this reminds
me of...a Joss quote -- shadowkat, 10:10:06 09/06/02 Fri
Anyone else remember that quote of Joss' where he
said:
"Next year Buffy will hunt the vampires for the first part
of the episode and Sam Waterson will try them in the second."?
Made me wonder if he was reading our board? Nah...he has
a life outside Btvs unlike some of us. ;-)
[> [> Genius! --
HonorH, 10:56:28 09/06/02 Fri
Truly hilarious! Love the bit about Spike on the leaflet!
[> [> If I were drinking
a glass of milk, milk would be coming out of my nose about now!
ROFLMAO! -- Rob, 12:07:49 09/06/02 Fri
[> [> Re: So how would
you suggest Buffy handle the newly-risen? A vampire triage unit?
-- MaeveRigan, 12:29:09 09/06/02 Fri
"but then the Sunnydale Chamber of Commerce chipped
in on the sly,"
Pun intended? Could the Initiative be cooperating with this SVRP?
HonorH, you made my day!
[> [> [> Or rather,
cjl made my day, but it's a good day, either way. -- MaeveRigan,
12:31:22 09/06/02 Fri
[> [> [> Glad I made
your day, but -- HonorH, 12:32:24 09/06/02 Fri
you realize it was cjl who actually wrote the funny, much as I'd
love to take credit for it.
[> [> [> Never intended
the connection...but if you want to interpret it that way...
-- cjl, 12:32:27 09/06/02 Fri
Fine by me. Unlike certain ME writers, I don't want to jam a single
interpretation down your throat...
[> [> Heee-larious! I
nearly coughed up a lung! -- Dichotomy, 14:06:31 09/06/02
Fri
[> [> [> Never do
that again, cjl. -- Dichotomy's Lungs, 14:19:52 09/06/02
Fri
[> [> Re: So how would
you suggest Buffy handle the newly-risen? A vampire triage unit?
-- Just George, 15:56:40 09/06/02 Fri
Interestingly, Laurell Hamilton deals with something like the
SVRP in her Anita Blake series of books. In the books, vampires
are public and legal, but biting people is bad. Corpses that have
a chance of rising are taken to an armored room at the morgue.
The room has small animals as snacks for the newly risen and a
vampire that can act as a counselor to help them adjust to their
new status. The setup seemed clever, but completely inappropriate
to BtVS.
BTW, I expect that Buffy would be hard pressed to stake a vampire
that was not attacking her and protesting that it wanted to be
"good". Buffy generally stakes things that are either
attacking or belong to a category of things that have always attacked
given the chance. Rising vamps currently qualify. The first vamp
that rises and protests instead of attacking will make staking
others much harder.
-JG
[> I don't think I answered
the question but anyway... -- Slain, 14:07:35 09/06/02
Fri
Would Buffy feel differently towards them if they spoke to her
like she was an equal, rather than like either a meal or an enemy?
Well, possibly she would, but from the start Giles drills it into
her that vampires don't deserve life, or have the right to question
her license to slay; because their memories, their rationality
and ability to understand and behave like humans is something
that comes from the dead human bodies they inhabit, not from themselves.
Giles effectively says their humanity is an illusion.
I don't think he's right; vampires are more human that
he gives them credit for, though I wouldn't question Buffy's license
to slay. This is what I believe about vampires; that they have
duality, almost schizophrenia perhaps. They're nasty, horny demons
living inside another creature's dead body, a creature which had
morals, loves, memories. But they aren't this complex, dualist
creature when they rise from the grave, they're kung fu fighting
demons with a thirst for blood (which I think might be a B-movie).
But everyone is effected by circumstances; if I were to wake up
tomorrow in the body of cockroach, sooner or later I'd start thinking
like one. I think this is how it is for vampires; as Giles says,
vampires are crossbreeds, where while one part is in control,
the demon, the other part (human) is still significant.
Some vampires, like the Master, claim to reject their humanity,
but in fact they're just as human as vampires like Angelus or
Darla who live amongst humanity; the Master schemes and plots,
lives apart from humans but little different from some kind of
criminal overlord. In Angel Season 2, we saw how the demon looks
and behaves in its natural form; that's what vampires are like
when they first rise, but sooner or later their human body begins
to influence them, and they become more and more affected by it.
I think when vampires do appear to rise and be coherent and passably
human, it's because they've not immediately risen that
instant, but have rather been around for sufficently long enough
to realise that being all fangy from the up off is going to get
them nowhere. Remember Darla is insane when she rises again, despite
this being her second time around. Vampires can exhibit cunning,
and I think that a vampire which rose and appeared to question
itself would be more likely to be waiting till Buffy turned her
back to pounce. Angelus has used similar tactics, and I think
that's what Holtz's daughter was doing; after all, she soon turned
evil the moment she was threatened.
That Master seems to be, because of his physical appearance, more
demonic and less human, as if he's gradually grown out of his
human vessel. Yet in fact he shows little blood lust, and instead
a love of the nuclear family, machines, the giving of gifts, all
things generally considered human and non-demonic. Of all the
vampires on the show, the Master is in many ways the least
vampiric, yet he's the most evil who has ever unlived, apparently.
Draw what conclusions you will from that.
A whole post about vampires, and I didn't mention Spike once!
Do I win a prize?
[> [> Re: I don't think
I answered the question but anyway... -- shadowkat, 18:30:10
09/06/02 Fri
You mentioned him in the last sentence, so sorry no prize this
round! ;-)
Excellent post by the way and probably the best explaination of
read of the human tendencies of vamps in Btvs in a while. There's
only one point I think I disagree with :
"That Master seems to be, because of his physical appearance,
more demonic and less human, as if he's gradually grown out of
his human vessel. Yet in fact he shows little blood lust, and
instead a love of the nuclear family, machines, the giving of
gifts, all things generally considered human and non-demonic.
Of all the vampires on the show, the Master is in many ways the
least vampiric, yet he's the most evil who has ever unlived, apparently.
Draw what conclusions you will from that."
Not sure about this. The Master sets up Luke in Harvest to drain
an entire bar filled with people so he can be freed.
The Master only doesn't drain humans - because he's stuck in the
Hellmouth and can't get to them. Once he's freed, he is more than
ready to do so. In The Wish - he comes up with a method of mass-producing
blood. It is the most fiendship way of draining blood we've ever
seen on the show. If anything I think the Master has shown more
blood-lust than the other characters. Unless of course you're
defining blood-lust as an animal urge and the Master's urg is
more cold-blooded? He doesn't lust for blood like Angelus or the
fledgling might. But he does want it and does find ways to get
it in mass quantities. He also seems to enjoy killing - as is
seen in the episode Angel and Never Kill a Boy on the First Date.
Now the other vamps? I'd agree Angelus, Darla, Dru, Sunday...etc
who have been around a while, seem to rarely go into vamp face.
While fledgings are in it all the time.
But wait not all fledglings. How do we explain Harmony or
the boy Dawn was with or Sheila or the guy that Buffy had befriended
and Sunday turned? They are in human face until
they have to fight. Which raises the question: Why do some vamps
stay in vamp face all the time and others don't?
Is it just a convience thing for ME? I mean it would be taxing
to have to change every vamps makeup every time they shifted.
Much easier to leave it to the main vamps and have the rest stay
in vamp face, I would think.
(Hmmm no wonder Whedon has decided not to do any aliens in Firefly,
save on makeup. )
[> [> [> one time
we know the master drank human blood... -- anom, 00:02:33
09/09/02 Mon
...& maybe more:
"The Master only doesn't drain humans - because he's stuck
in the Hellmouth and can't get to them."
It's pretty clear it was the Master who turned Jesse in Welcome
to the Hellmouth. He's brought down specifically for the Master,
even though Darla tasted him first. Less clear but perhaps implied
is that the Master's followers bring him human food on an occasional
to regular basis. After all, he is a vamp, & a vamp's gotta eat!
[> [> [> [> Don't
forget Darla and Buffy -- Sophist, 09:31:05 09/09/02 Mon
[> Re: Dilemma -- Alvin,
17:46:51 09/06/02 Fri
I think she would let them go, but might keep an eye on them.
Remember when Dawn went out with the vamp, the vamps surrounded
Buffy and she asked if any of them had come to the cemetary to
make out. Two of them raised their hands, and she let them go.
If a vamp will always give in to their bloodlust, she should have
staked those two as well, but since they were acting in a more
human manner, she let them go.
[> [> Um, those two *were*
humans (in All the Way) -- Scroll, 19:09:52 09/06/02 Fri
Fellow Buffy fanatics, an opinion please!
The Great Recording Question -- Thomas the Skeptic, 08:40:11
09/06/02 Fri
This is a little OT since it does'nt deal with either themes or
subtexts in any of the various series but I was just curious what
everyone else thought on this subject. I have recorded all six
seasons of Buffy and all three of Angel. I plan on doing the same
thing with Firefly because I have become endlessly fascinated
with anything that emanates from the fevered mind of The Great
Whedon, but even I think that recording three hours a week is
a tad obsessive. What are the recording habits of the other Buffy
devotees that frequent this board? All, some, or none of the above?
Please let me know, it might put my mind at ease about just how
big a freak I really am, comparatively speaking!
[> Re:the Great Recording
Question -- SpikeMom,
08:51:40 09/06/02 Fri
I record Buffy and Angel. I started to tape Witchblade and then
it was summarily cancelled. I started Buffy and Angel last fall
which means I have all episodes of Buffy (thanks to FX reruns)
but only S3 of Angel and a couple of S2 episodes. Considering
the snail's pace of releasing Angel on DVD in the US (I bought
my DVD player before I knew about "regions") it'll be
forever before I get to see Angel S1 and S2. Any spare tapage
out there?
[> I plan to tape all three
shows! (If it's a rerun, I still tape! Yes, I'm obsessive.)
-- Scroll, 09:06:32 09/06/02 Fri
[> Re: Fellow Buffy fanatics,
an opinion please! The Great Recording Question -- Masq, 09:09:21
09/06/02 Fri
I tape all my favorite shows (which is about three shows a year).
But then I'm a collector. I like to have my re-runs around. :
)
I guess the question to ask is if all that taping is interfering
with anything else in your life. Or having all those tapes around
is cluttering up your home! : )
[> [> Re: Fellow Buffy
fanatics, an opinion please! The Great Recording Question
-- Dead Soul, 09:22:08 09/06/02 Fri
I had to buy a new bookcase for BtVS & Angel tapes, DVDs and books.
If I have to buy another, I really have no place to put it.
Dead (and living in an apartment small enough to be a coffin)
Soul
[> [> [> Re: Fellow
Buffy fanatics, an opinion please! The Great Recording Question
-- shadowkat, 11:03:46 09/06/02 Fri
At least you've put them in a bookcase. My tapes are on the floor
between my couch and the entrance to my bedroom.
It's a small apt and not spacious enough for an obsessive
collector of Buffy/ATs tapes and books of every genre.
LOL!
And I forced myself to throw out that static ridden barely audio
first broadcast tape of Becoming Part I & II.
It only had visual. PAthetic? yes.
[> [> [> [> Static
Ridden Audio Tapes -- SpikeMom,
15:20:30 09/06/02 Fri
I bought a little cassette recorder/player, then audio taped my
VCR tape of Once More With Feeling. The sound quality is abyssmal
but at least I can sing along in the car and enjoy the dialogue
as well, sort of like an audio book. An unfortunate side effect
is that I have all the commercials memorized! I've had the OMWF
CD on pre-order since day one and am looking forward to a quality
recording.
[> [> Taping (and hopefully
not oversharing) -- SpikeMom,
09:45:43 09/06/02 Fri
Yes, the VHS casettes are bulky and take up way too much space.
Plus I've got episodes out of order on the tapes, so I can't just
toss S1 and S2 of Buffy now that I have the DVDs. And, I've got
to buy more blank tapes to get ready for S7 and Angel S4. But
in the immortal words of He Who Shall Not Be Named At The Moment,
"Not really complaining here". Analyzing episodes and
catching new details helps pass the summer hiatus.
As for time spent, I've rushed home many times to catch an episode
for taping as well as cajolled friends into taping an episode
or two for me. I've also taped extraneous shows because I wasn't
home to start or stop the recorder to just get Buffy or Angel.
My VCR timer is not very reliable.
I've also taped other shows or rented movies that have the actors
from Buffy and Angel, such as James Marsters in "The Labrynth"
from Farscape.
Oh, just remebered, I have alot of Pretender episodes and Pretender
two hour TV movies taped as well. Wish that series would come
out on DVD.
Because of my interest in Buffy, I've expanded/changed my tastes
in music as well. I've purchased several CDs from Bush and other
artists after hearing the Crypt Door song (Out Of My Mind) from
Dead Things. I went to James Marsters's Ghost of the Robot show
at 14Below in August. Never done something like that before in
my life. My daughter (whose fault this is because she got me started)
laughs at her 43 year old mother becoming a groupie!
I'm learning my way around the internet in order to participate
in discussion groups such as this. A year ago, I could barely
email.
So, yes, I would say that taping the show has had a pretty big
impact on my life. Meeting people like you folks has been "a
Buffy Summers bonus".
SpikeMom (whose posting name comes from her favorite character
and her most important job)
[> [> [> Re: Taping
(and hopefully not oversharing) -- Masq, 10:28:18 09/06/02
Fri
"Plus I've got episodes out of order on the tapes, so I can't
just toss S1 and S2 of Buffy now that I have the DVDs."
At least you have a reason to keep those tapes. When I bought
the DVDs, I couldn't bear to throw away the tapes of those seasons,
even though they were taking up space and nothing else on them
but S1 or S2. I'm pathetic that way!
[> [> [> [> Re:
Taping rerun Reruns -- SpikeMom,
15:02:22 09/06/02 Fri
This morning I finally got Hush taped in piece (or as much of
it that FX didn't cut for ads). It's been one of those episodes
that defies taping. I either run out of tape, the VCR gets demon
possessed, I tune in after it starts, or I accidentally tape over
it. We'll see how this copy fares.
Why no, I don't think taping episodes impacts my life at all (pathetic,
much?).
[> [> [> [> Re:
Taping (and hopefully not oversharing) -- Thomas the Skeptic,
06:56:07 09/07/02 Sat
This is sort of a postscript to my first post because, as I was
running out the door, I forgot to mention that I have the first
two seasons on DVD also and, yes just like you Masq, I can't bear
to get rid of the videos I made earlier. I have to say, hearing
the lengths and depths that all of us are going to to feed our
obsession is extremely gratifying. Oh yeah, also forgot to mention,
I read most of the novels that Christopher Golden and Nancy Holder
have written (don't care too much for the other writers that have
taken a stab at the Buffyverse, sad to say).
[> [> [> [> Don't
toss tapes of the original airings of the eps - dvd cut lines
out -- ~queller, 10:49:41 09/07/02 Sat
A friend sent me tapes of the original airing of S2, I was surprised
to find that some lines had been *cut* from the episodes the dvd.
I know that the reruns on Fox and FX cut stuff for time, but I
had thought the dvd's would have everything that originally aired.
I haven't gone through all of the eps to compare but these lines
were cut from "Lie To Me" on the dvd:
***
(cut lines have a + around them):
-
Chapter 3 - Buffy's Old Crush
Ford: Dad got the transfer, and boom, he just dragged me outta
Hemery
and put me down here.
Buffy: +This is great! Well, I mean, it's hard, sudden move, all
your
friends, delicate time, very emotional, but let's talk about me!
(puts
her hand on his knee) This is great!+
Willow: So, you two were sweeties in fifth grade?
--
Later in Chapter 3.
Angel: Hey! I was hoping you'd show.
Buffy: +You drink! I mean, drinks. Non-blood things.+
Angel: There's a lot about me you don't know.+
Buffy: I believe that.
Willow: That's Angel.
--
Chapter 7 - The Sunset Club
Angel: I've seen enough. I've seen this type before. I mean, they're
children making up bedtime stories of friendly vampires to comfort
themselves in the dark.
Willow: Is that so bad? +I mean, the dark can get pretty dark.
Sometimes
you need a story.+
Angel: These people don't know anything about vampires. What they
are,
how
they live, how they dress...
--
Chapter 9 - Ford and Spike
Spike: Yeah, I know who I am, too. So what?
Ford: I came looking for you, Spike. +You are Spike, right? William
the
Bloody?+
Spike: You've got a real death wish. It's almost interesting.
--
Chapter 11 - Buffy Steps In
Chantarelle: One was mean.
Ford: +Oh, Christ!+ Why didn't you tell me about this?
Diego: I have to do everything around here. Sorry, Mr. Flawless
Plan
Guy, it slipped my mind.
--
Chapter 13 - Take Them All
Buffy: Good idea. Now you let everyone out, or your girlfriend
fits in
an
ashtray.
Drusilla: +Spike?+
Spike: +It's gonna be alright, baby.+ Let them go!
Buffy: Down the stairs.
***
For me - founding member of "The Truly Anal" - I will
be keeping all of my tapes.
~queller - (long time lurker passing through)
[> [> [> [> [>
It's all true! o_O -- Slain, 13:33:15 09/07/02 Sat
Heh, I thought you were being crazy, but I checked and it turns
out you're right. That's very odd - I can't think of a reason
why any episodes would be cut; and although none of the quotes
exactly add anything to the story, it's weird that they should
be cut. Though I do miss Willow's line "I mean, the dark
can get pretty dark. Sometimes you need a story". The could
be the tagline for a million Fan Fiction sites!
[> I record Important eps
or my favorite ones. -- JCC, 09:17:07 09/06/02 Fri
I have:
Season 2
Suprise
Innocence
Bewitched, Bothered & Bewildered
Passion
Becoming 1/2
Season 3
Most of the eps
Season 4
The Initiative
Primeval
Restless
Season 5
All
But none of season 6 yet.
[> I'm even worse --
Dead Soul, 09:17:52 09/06/02 Fri
I tape reruns of eps I already have tapes of - sometimes eps that
I already have on DVD. Just in case, you know?
Will definitely be taping Firefly.
Dead (but still OCD'ing) Soul
[> Re: Fellow Buffy fanatics,
an opinion please! The Great Recording Question -- shadowkat,
09:42:06 09/06/02 Fri
Actually I can beat you. Three hours a week is nothing. This past
year I obsessively recorded all the episodes on FX. Did a second
recording of episodes rebroadcast on UPN thinking they weren't
as edited as the FX ones, when I realized they were just as bad,
I stopped. I have two copies of several episodes in Season 4,
Season 2, Season 5, and Season 6.. I have also re-taped most of
ATs in reruns this season. Annoyed they didn't re-broadcast Waiting
in The Wings because I don't think I have it on tape.
I will tape all of Firefly, ATs and Btvs this year. I have two
rows of video tapes next to my coach. And! I obsessively watch
the shows when they appear on FX every night at 7, am pissed they
no longer have two hours of BTVs even though I've seen every single
episode of the show at least three times. I also will rewatch
reruns of Ats on Sundays regardless of what else is on and reruns
of Btvs on Tuesday regardless of what else is on.
Obsessed? You betcha. I think going online made it worse.
I keep waiting for the obession to die. i think it might be a
little since I finally stopped taping all the reruns. One tape
of an episode is actually enough. LOL!
[> [> How BtVS almost
destroyed my marriage ;-) -- MaeveRigan, 10:09:13 09/06/02
Fri
I taped eps 1-5 on FX--TWICE. Once for a friend, once for myself.
My husband, who's not a fan but sort of enjoys Buffy and Angel
when they're on once a week, nearly went out of his mind when
he had to watch reruns twice a day, five times a week, plus the
regular episodes.
"What about the news?" he whined plaintively. "What
about Jeopardy?"
"Who needs news?" said I. "And I like Buffy's questions
better."
He took to being elsewhere from 6-8 in self-defense...
But things are a little calmer now that FX has cut back to 1 rerun
per day and I've recorded everything...
[> Re: Fellow Buffy fanatics,
an opinion please! The Great Recording Question -- LadyStarlight,
09:50:35 09/06/02 Fri
Let's see now...
I will be recording Buffy, AtS, and probably Firefly. (since that
one's more SciFi, maybe hubby'll get into it too)
Also going to be asking for a DVD player for Xmas, so I can get
the sets. If/when I get DVDs, I'll probably be discarding my taped
copies. (space issues) Or maybe I'll put them away somewhere just
in case.
[> I've only recorded one
ep: OMWF...Then I went and got the DVDs for S1 and S2. --
Majin Gojira, 09:51:17 09/06/02 Fri
[> Re: Fellow Buffy fanatics,
an opinion please! The Great Recording Question -- Sarand,
10:04:39 09/06/02 Fri
I started watching both shows last fall. Started taping Ats with
Lullaby and Btvs with Smashed. Have taped every episode since
on FX (and Fox and UPN until I realized they were as edited as
the ones on FX). Have every episode of Buffy now that OMWF was
rebroadcast (but not the complete episode, drat). Still missing
some of the AtS S3 episodes from the beginning of the season.
I have the first season of Buffy on DVD even though I don't yet
have a DVD player. How weird is that. (OT: what kind of DVD player
plays DVDs from England so that I can see the first two seasons
of Angel?) I will be taping both Angel (and watching it later
because it's opposite Alias) and Buffy (and watching it at least
twice that night) this season, and probably Firefly until I decide
whether I like it. I'll probably buy a bigger apartment this year
so that I can have an extra room for the video cassettes and DVDs.
Obsessive? Sure. A freak? I think not. Thomas, do you feel better
now?
[> [> DVD players
-- Dead Soul, 10:10:13 09/06/02 Fri
I got a Sampo multi-region DVD player this spring so I could get
the Angel DVD sets from the UK. Best thing I ever did - I love
it. I also have BtVS UK DVDs for seasons 3 and 4 and Season 5
is coming out in UK in Oct. I've already pre-ordered it.
Can't recommend them enough. And not that expensive, mine was
about $200.00
Dead (and an electronics idiot, so if I can work one, anyone can)
Soul
[> [> [> Thanks for
the info (NT) -- Sarand, 10:24:43 09/06/02 Fri
[> [> Re: All region
DVD players -- Freki, 11:29:50 09/06/02 Fri
I've got a Daewoo 5800 DVD player that cost about $90 at Sam's
Club. It can be converted to region-free with a few commands on
the remote control, and plays DVDs from England just fine.
There's a lot of info about making DVD players region free at
http://www.nerd-out.com/darrenk/
[> [> Re: Fellow Buffy
fanatics, an opinion please! The Great Recording Question
-- John Burwood, 13:15:55 09/06/02 Fri
Having one DVD set and no DVD player is nothing. I live in England
so have 4 BTVS DVD sets & 2 Angel DVD sets but still don't have
a DVD player yet. But then one bookshelf is groaning under 8 seasons
of video boxed sets, which I constantly replay - mostly in order.
I have videod every first run ep since Nightmares, & retained
them until I purchased.
And if that is not barking enough, I have used reruns to tape
over 95% of my old recordings of other programmes. Quite why I'm
not sure - but it gave me something to aim for at a very low time.
Plus I have long learnt to live by Murphy's Law - the just in
case principle.
Which is I've bought 2 copies of every BtVS video.
Plus I had cable installed much earlier than planned purely to
get Buffy on Sky One.
Yikes - its cost me a fortune!
[> If I said you were Crazy..
I'd by lynched by the group -- neaux, 10:32:20 09/06/02
Fri
I watch all the Buffy eps.. and watched all of season 3 Angel..
I only record eps if for some Horrible Horrible reason I am busy.
To be honest, now that the seasons are coming out on DVD.. I wait
in anticipation for each season.
If I had the oportunity and money to buy a Tivo I'd do it in a
heartbeat. I think the VHS is a dodo ready to spread its wings
and die. If I had a Tivo though.. I would record everything on
broadcast and cable!! XD
[> [> I go Tivo.
-- Arethusa, 10:56:19 09/06/02 Fri
Tivo is fabulous, especially if you can't keep track of what's
on and when it's on, like me. I program everything I want to watch
on Tivo except for BtVS and AtS, which I videotape, since I watch
them on my little kitchen TV/VCR while making dinner. Videotapes
are horribly inconvenient compared to Tivo, where I can erase
the shows I don't want to keep with the push of a button, or transfer
them to a DVD or videotape if I want to keep them.
Although I Tivo AtS anyway, so I can see it on the bigger tv.
Arethusa, who took a left turn at obsession and is approaching
fixation.
[> Re: Fellow Buffy fanatics,
an opinion please! The Great Recording Question -- Cheryl,
11:00:07 09/06/02 Fri
Well, let's see . . . I'm single and have 3 tvs and 3 vcrs - what
does that tell ya? :-)
I have seasons 1 & 2 of Buffy on DVD and seasons 3-5 from FX and
season 6 from UPN. I still tape FX every night and watch when
I have time (fast forwarding over scenes I don't care about).
I just started watching Angel in season 3 and tape every week,
but don't save them. I really, really want to see seasons 1-2
of Angel. I expect I will tape Firefly but not sure I'll keep
every episode - hard to say just yet.
I also have on tape some shows that the stars have been on (i.e.,
JM and Andromeda and I think I still have Politically Incorrect).
And I have rented movies solely based on the actors, even though
I never would have watched them otherwise (i.e., Marc Blucas and
Summer Catch).
There are very few tv series' I tape consistently or keep forever
- I think Star Trek Voyager and Emergency! are the only series
I still have.
[> Re: Fellow Buffy fanatics,
an opinion please! The Great Recording Question -- wtofts,
11:07:03 09/06/02 Fri
It is always comforting to find other folks with as great an obsession
as one's own. I have taped all the BtVS seasons, the last of Angel
and plan on taping Firefly, and will follow where Whedon leads.
(Anyone for legislation prohibiting the editing F/X and UPN do
on the reruns?)
If any of y'all would like to loan out their season 1 and 2 tapes
of Angel, I would treat them like gold, return them speedily postage
paid, and not copy them. ( I have great respect for copyright
infringement law and believe borrowing copies made for personal
use does not violate it) You know you can trust a fellow fanatic.
[> Speaking of which...An
open request... -- Rob, 12:04:14 09/06/02 Fri
I do not have any "Angel" episodes on tape, and would
really like to rectify the situation. Is it possible for any one
who possibly has all of the episodes of the three seasons in order,
to make copies for me? I would reimburse whomever completely for
the cost of the blank tapes, the shipping and handling. If you
can help me, please e-mail me at robwill@optonline.net or respond
to this post! Thanks a billion!
Rob
P.S. Oh, and in answer to the question, I tape and have a copy
of every episode of "Buffy." I got into "Angel"
later and do not have them on tape (although wish I did--see top
of post ;o)). And I definitely plan on taping "Firefly."
But those aren't the only shows I tape...I tape "Alias,"
"Six Feet Under," "Farscape," "Friends,"
"The Sopranos," and "Sex and the City" as
well. So only 3 hours a week of taping is the least of my problems.
;o)
[> [> A link that might
help -- HonorH, 12:39:31 09/06/02 Fri
These people helped me when I couldn't get tapes. Take a look-see
at what they've got:
Eastlant SF Group
[> [> Try Dochawk
-- Masq, 16:43:04 09/06/02 Fri
He's got the Season 1 and 2 area 2 DVDs and a "taping system"
: )
[> [> [> Cool, thanks
for the heads-up, guys! -- Rob, 19:12:07 09/06/02 Fri
[> Here's a funny little
story for you... -- Jon, 12:43:14 09/06/02 Fri
I just had to step from the shadows to share this, since the topic
came up. I only started taping episodes for keeps about mid-way
through season 6, and once I started that I decided I'd better
tape everything I could of earlier seasons. However, I'm living
cable free, so all I had at my disposal was the Buffy Weekends
series - which is really slow going and I'm sure it will just
finish running season 3 in time for the DVD to be released. I've
kept up pretty well but I have missed some episodes.
Anyway, friends of mine who had, previously, chuckled at my Buffy
obsession got turned on to the DVDs for seasons 1 & 2 and boy
were they hooked. However, they're continuity freaks. They're
motto is "continuity is your friend." So when they came
to me for season 3 episodes they stolidly refused to watch any
of them out of sequence. That was fine until we got to episodes
4 and 5 of season 3 which I'd failed to tape because I was out
of town when they aired. We had a night where we viewed the first
three of the season - and I was SO EAGER to show them Band Candy,
especially since one of them is a HUGE Giles fan. But I could
not talk them into it. "Continuity is our friend" they
insisted.
So we were stuck. We actually got so desperate that my girlfriend
and I found the scripts for Beauty & the Beasts and Homecoming
online and we were considering a night of heavy drinking and amateur
acting just so we could move past the hole in my tapes.
Then, a miracle occurred. One of my continuity obsessed friends
found himself in his car behind another car that was plastered
with bumperstickers - "I'm a Slayer - Ask Me How," "My
Other Car is a Broomstick," etc. - and he thought to himself,
"huh - it's worth a shot." So he pulled up beside the
guy and yelled through the window, "Hey! Are you a Buffy
fan?"
The guy replied warily, "Yeah."
My friend said, "Do you tape it?"
The guy replied in the affirmative.
My friend said, "Do you have episodes 4 & 5 of Season 3?"
The guy said, "I've got everything."
"Pull over," my friend commanded.
And the rest is history. For a 6 pack of a local microbrew we
got back on track.
So be proud if you're drowning in tapes. Maybe it'll help you
help someone else in the future.
Jon
[> [> That is the coolest
and funniest story i've read! -- neaux, 13:47:03 09/06/02
Fri
[> [> [> Re: Psst!
- Got Buffy? -- Pegleg Pete, 14:31:11 09/06/02 Fri
[> [> Curse of the Continuity
Freaks -- Thomas the Skeptic, 07:41:54 09/07/02 Sat
I love your story! I don't have anything that comes close but
when you mentioned your "continuity freak" friends I
had to share this about my friend; he had never seen an episode
of Buffy or Angel until after the fourth season of Buffy but he
grew increasingly intrigued by my constant gushing on the subject
and started watching my tapes. However, since I was not such a
proficient or sophisticated taper in my early days, the first
three seasons of Buffy were a mess; taped on videos where I was
taping other series (heresy I know but I have since learned the
error of my ways...) and sometimes out of sequence (I have all
the episodes but you may have switch back and forth between several
tapes to see them in order). Anyway, after this casual viewer
got hooked like the rest of us, he grew quite indignant at this
state of affairs and adamantly refused to watch anything out of
sequence. I spent many an evening scrutinizing the labels on the
tapes to make sure he was getting enough of them at one time to
complete a particular arc. Also, incidentally, I am a spoiler
ho' and he has a strict no-spoiler policy so, as you can imagine,
having a conversation with him about the shows is like navigating
through a minefield blinfolded as I try to avoid corrupting his
delicate state of innocence (sarcasm intended).
[> [> [> Re: Curse
of the Continuity Freaks -- Masq, 18:31:49 09/08/02 Sun
Some people just want to enjoy the show the way it was meant to
be enjoyed: in order, from the beginning, with only "on next
week's episode" previews in between.
Is that a crime??
[> [> [> [> My
sense of perspective (and humility) restored... -- Thomas
the Skeptic, 09:42:14 09/09/02 Mon
Actually, I was being needlessly snarky in my "continuity
freaks" post. The truth is, I won't watch episodes out of
sequence, either, and while I made jokes to my friend about all
the extra work of making sure he had the right tapes in the right
order, I really did'nt blame him. Also, what I really meant (and
should have said) about spoilers was that it was extremely difficult
talking about what he had watched without accidentally giving
away a plot point from later in that season or a following season.
I was so relieved when he was caught up to the same point I was
at so I did not have to watch my words so carefully. Thanks Masq,
for making me realize I was being a little harsh!
[> [> [> [> [>
And I don't mean to be snarky either -- Jon, 11:26:42
09/09/02 Mon
I totally respect my friends' desire for continuity - I'm just
sorry I haven't been able to provide it for them. I do think there's
also something to be said for coming into Buffy at multiple points
simultaneously - which is essentially how I had to do it (I started
watching during season 4 and only slowly pieced together what
came before). Three Buffy's a week from three different seasons
- it's like watching a puzzle assemble itself. It does make it
very hard to remember where one is, though - and really confuses
conversations with people who don't have the big overview and
are hoping to avoid spoilers.
I'm sure someone could go on at length about how different approaches
to the question of continuity dictate people's method of reading
Buffy. Continuitists probably hold the "canon" especially
dear while out-of-orderists probably tend towards moral relativism
and deconstructive readings.
Of course that's probably a whole lot of hot air.
There is the question of what to do with "Earshot" if
you're a coninuitist: do you watch in the order it was meant to
appear or do you hold off and watch after season three is done
which is what viewers had to do the first time through due to
Columbine (and which is how the Buffy Weekends series chooses
to do it)?
Jon
[> [> [> [> [>
I was being snarky, too -- Masq, 18:20:04 09/09/02 Mon
But unlike your friend, I had the benefit of watching every first-run
episode at its, uh, first run. Except "Halloween". There
was a black-out the night it aired and I had to watch it later.
Oh, that goes for "Earshot" too I guess. : )
[> Re: Fellow Buffy fanatics,
an opinion please! The Great Recording Question -- Amber,
12:51:05 09/06/02 Fri
Buffy and Angel both air 2 times a week where I live so I initially
started out watching them both during the first airing, and then
taping/saving the second airing if it was an episode I really
liked.
I soon discovered that this system was flawed because when new
info was revealed in newer episodes I frequently wanted to rewatch
an old episode which I hadn't previously liked. For example, when
a certain main character on Angel was killed I really wanted to
see all the previous eps. with that character, but unfortunately
I hadn't recorded them all.
My new system is to tape all new eps. of Buffy and Angel as they
air, and I'm going to do the same for Firefly. Basically I've
worked out the cheapest system to do this, since I'm also buying
the DVD's as they come out.
So, on extra long play speed, it takes 2 eight hours tapes and
one six hour tape to do a whole season of any given show and I've
found I can get the tapes cheapest in value packs at WalMart for
a very nice price.
And that's how I deal with my addiction :)
[> [> Tape speeds
-- LadyStarlight, 13:13:00 09/06/02 Fri
I find, that depending on what happens during the season, I can
fit each season onto 2 tapes. How? you ask. I buy the 10-hour
SLP tapes (they're expensive, but good quality) from my local
Radio Shack. Each tape is around $10 Cdn, but I think the space
saved is worth it.
If I was on the ball as to cutting out commercials, I might be
able to drop the speed down to ExtraLong Play, and have each tape
be 8 hours of actual show, but I'm not very good with a remote.
[> Watching outside of them
United States (and some stuff about multi region DVD) -- Slain,
14:31:15 09/06/02 Fri
I've contemplated getting Sky TV just for Buffy, and last season
I got someone in the US to tape Season 6 and send me the episodes
by post! But I can really recommend downloading the episodes with
Kazaa (www.kazaalite.com), as I've got most of the second half
of Season 6 in great quality. Then of course you watch them when
they come on TV, just to keep the viewing figures up!
A word about multi-region DVD players - you can also use an ordinary
PC DVD player with some software like PowerDVD. This will allow
you to change the region, which is what I do if I want to play
other region DVDs. Though it might be best to check that the DVD
drive is multi region just in case; because while foreign PC DVD
drives can be set to any region (using software), it's possible
the US might have some wacky restrictions of their own.
[> [> Re: Watching outside
of them United States (and some stuff about multi region DVD)
-- Freki, 15:14:58 09/06/02 Fri
You need to be careful if you're doing this, though, because at
least in the US most newer computers will only let you switch
the region code a certain number of times before it sets the region
code permanently.
[> Re: Fellow Buffy fanatics,
an opinion please! The Great Recording Question -- Deeva,
14:38:55 09/06/02 Fri
I only tape current season stuff and hang onto it for just about
that long. I always figure I'll eventually get the DVD of that
season eventually. Right now I have all of Season 6 Buffy but
no Angel. I've never thought to tape it. I might tape it this
season though because it's up against Alias and Six Feet Under.
Deeva
[> [> Re: Six feet under
plays on HBO more than one night - so 1/2 problem solved.
-- Pegleg Pete, 15:37:41 09/06/02 Fri
[> [> And luckilly (at
least for that situation only)... -- Rob, 19:14:00 09/06/02
Fri
"Six Feet Under"'s third season doesn't start until
next March...unless you watch "Sopranos" also Sundays
at 9 Then you still have a scheduling conflict. Also, I guess,
if you're watching the SFU reruns at 8 pm Sunday nights.
Rob
[> Just Get TiVo! --
Dochawk, 16:35:11 09/06/02 Fri
TiVO is the greatest invention since the TV itself. Never miss
anything (except for Family which I have failed to get way too
many time, but its on Fox Monday at midnight!).
But, I transfer all my TiVos to tape, so that I have more room.
I tape 3 shows, Buffy/Angel/West Wing on extremely high grade
tape (in essence the taping costs as much as the DVDs). This season
I am going to try to capture the HiDef feeds on DVD. Buffy has
turned into waaaaay too expensive a hobby.
[> Just Get TiVo! --
Dochawk, 16:36:31 09/06/02 Fri
TiVO is the greatest invention since the TV itself. Never miss
anything (except for Family which I have failed to get way too
many times, but its on Fox Monday at midnight!).
But, I transfer all my TiVos to tape, so that I have more room.
I tape 3 shows, Buffy/Angel/West Wing on extremely high grade
tape (in essence the taping costs as much as the DVDs). This season
I am going to try to capture the HiDef feeds on DVD. Buffy has
turned into waaaaay too expensive a hobby.
[> Re: Fellow Buffy fanatics,
an opinion please! The Great Recording Question -- d'Herblay,
17:14:31 09/06/02 Fri
Well, I once drove for an hour from Cleveland to Akron and another
time crossed a good part of Brooklyn and the entire length of
Manhattan to pick up tapes of episodes I had missed, so perhaps
I'm not one to tell you that you're a freak. But then I've also,
enraptured, watched Buffy dubbed into French and subtitled
in Dutch and Spanish (not all at once!). Three hours of taping
a week doesn't seem to me to be much at all. There was a period
there last season when I was taping four and a half (Buffy,
Angel, 24, The Job, and The Shield).
I like to time-shift; I like to review; I don't like to throw
anything away. In fact, I have not only many hours of Hill
Street Blues, Homicide and Night Stand! floating
around, but near-complete runs of Get Smart! and Soap.
I also have a tape of the first launch of the Columbia space shuttle.
Who would I be to call anyone a freak?
(Me want TiVo! Me want DVD recorder and Sony thing that act like
TiVo but for radio! Me don't want to get up in time for Car
Talk or Will Shortz on Weekend Edition! Me must consume!)
(What? You didn't know that Neanderthals too enjoy National Public
Radio?)
[> [> My copy of Buffy
the Movie... -- CW, 06:40:03 09/07/02 Sat
is in Spanish, taped from the Spanish broadcast network Telemundo.
They couldn't translate a lot of the dialog literally so it doesn't
sound nearly as campy. The cuts to make it fit in a two-hour run
with commercials got rid of a lot of the worst garbage. For instance,
they only kept enough of the endless vamp-death-scene to give
you the idea, rather than letting it annoying. I think it's better
than the original.
[> Yep, I record them all
too -- Q, 20:30:52 09/06/02 Fri
Every single episode of both Buffy and Angel,with commercials
cut, in sequential order, well labled, and in homemade cases with
collages of pics from the show.
I plan on giving Firefly the same treatment at first.
[> Re: Friends, Romans,
Fellow Buffy fanatics-- thoughts on recording stuff -- OnM,
21:08:45 09/06/02 Fri
I bought my first VCR back around 1975 or '76. It was the very
first Sony 2-hour ('Beta II') machine on the market. It cost slightly
over $1000 wholesale. It weighed about 60 pounds and was
filled wall to wall inside with mechanism and circuitry. Blank
tapes had to be specially ordered from the local distributor who
sold the machines, and cost (wholesale again) about $20.00 per
tape. Max. recording time, as mentioned, was 2 hours.
(But was it ever cool. And, thanks to idiots like me
who forked over the bucks for this expensive toy, I enabled later
generations to get them a K-Mart for $99.)
Once I got a cable TV connection, I used the machine mostly to
tape movies off pay-cable, and thus started building a movie collection.
I held off the transition (from Beta) to VHS for as long as I
possibly could, and then got an S-VHS machine to get the best
possible recording quality.
Once laserdisc grew enough to get discs readily, I started buying
lasers instead of taping movies, and tried as best as possible
to replace many of my tapes with them. This process has continued
to this day, and into the DVD era. As a result of laser and DVD,
I have discontinued all my pay cable/satellite services because
tape picture and sound quality (obviously) really sucks compared
to laser and DVD.
I now use my VCR's mostly for 'temporary' copies of stuff I eventually
want to get on DVD, and of course for time-shifting. VCR's may
not be very good, but on the other hand, to be fair, they are
also ludicrously cheap now, as are the blank tapes.
I taped Buffy off and on until the 4th season, when I started
making a point of taping every ep. I usually run two VCR's simultaneously
in case one screws up and causes me to lose an original ep broadcast.
If the copy is OK (it nearly always is), I bump the second copy
tape over to next weeks show-- I don't keep both copies.
So, I'm eagerly waiting for the S3 DVD's to be released (this
Jan-Feb I believe), so I will have every ep of all 6 seasons neatly
organized and readily available to obsess over.
Once I have the DVD's, I will probably erase most of the tapes
and use them over, except for certain episodes (like FFL or Hush
or OMwF), since these are original broadcast versions, and so
have a certain 'historical' interest.
~~~~~~~
Some final notes and suggestions from your friendly resident A/V
guru:
Many people seem to obsess over fitting as many eps as possible
on a single cassette. I do not intend for anyone who is genuinely
on a really tight budget to do otherwise, but if you aren't please
consider that for anything other than time-shifting use--
1. Any tape longer than 6 hours uses thinner tape to fit in the
cassette. Thin tapes break/crinkle/crease very easily and
can also get 'eaten' by the VCR if there is the slightest hint
of dirt or internal moisture in the machine. 10 hour tapes are
very risky, I recommend using them like, never.
2. If the tape gets eaten, you can lose a lot of programming.
Spreading the eps out on more tapes reduces the chance of this.
3. Use of the higher recording speeds not only gives better picture
quality, more importantly, if you are archiving tapes (as opposed
to time-shifting) the picture will deteriorate far faster at the
6 hr speed than at the 2 hr speed. (All tapes gradually self-erase
over a period of years. The slower the recording speed, the faster
this occurs.
4. Some brands of tape work better with some machines than others.
It isn't that one brand is 'better', it has to do with electrical
matching between the recorder and the tape. Try several different
brands and see if you notice a quality difference. It isn't necessarily
price-related either. Use the cheapest thing that works well.
5. VCR's, as mentioned, are very cheap nowadays. If you find yourself
desiring to record two or three shows every week, consider just
buying a second or third recorder. Remember that the TV set has
NOTHING to do with the recording of the tape. Just hook up all
two or three recorders on a two or three way splitter and set
each one to the channel you want to tape.
6. If you live in an area with frequent power outages, consider
buying a recorder with a timer backup ability, or, hook the VCR
to the UPS for your computer.
7. If you use rental tapes a lot, consider dedicating one VCR
to playing them and use a second VCR for recording Buffy etc.
Rental tapes have a hard life, and can easily deposit dirt and
such into your machine, lowering the recording quality. Better
yet, get a DVD player and rent DVD's instead.
Thus endeth this Audio/Video Public Service Message!
:-)
[> Not having posted in
a while, being a total tape geek, I chime in. -- A8, 20:12:20
09/08/02 Sun
I tape everything that is of interest to me and rarely tape over
it (almost inevitably, if I do, I regret it later). Ultimately,
I'm hoping they will sort this whole recordable DVD standard war
so I can transfer my most valued tapes to DVD, but who knows when
that will be.
Okay my geek taper story.
As far as BTVS goes, I didn't start taping for keeps until S4.
Back then, I'd tape a Buffy ep then the following AtS ep, 3 of
each to a tape. Same with S5. I didn't catch a clue to devote
a separate tape for each series with eps in sequence until BtVS
S6, but considering some of the previous Season's crossovers,
no harm, no foul. When the DVDs came out I bought them (I was
tempted to go region free so I could have access to the UK sets,
but resisted the urge at that time) and then taped BtVs season
by season in sequence when the weekend syndicated eps aired. Consequently,
I have a number of copies of "Hush" and "Restless"
and a couple of the other eps that were special favorites. I have
no plans to tape over any of them. I am torn as to which AtS last
season eps, if any to tape over, since I never rewatch AtS for
some reason and am fast running out of space for reasons which
I am getting to.
Okay then, being a huge DS9 fan (by the way the DVDs for DS9 are
slated to dribble out sometime in 2003), I have as many eps of
that series as I could tape. Of course, I have "crucial"
eps of Voyager as well. And then there's some Roswell, new Outer
Limits, Smallville, Enterprise, Seinfeld, The Simpsons, and so
on and so on that I will probably give away before I erase for
newer stuff.
And then there's major historical events. PBS broadcast 6 hours
of the Apollo 11 "as it happened" on the first moon
landing's 25th Anniversary--had to archive that! Of course, I
set the tape to automatic and flipped through the channels as
9/11 transpired. Then there's a lot of old 49ers playoff games
and Super Bowl games (Joe Montana and Jerry Rice's final games
too) plus any news reports following the victories and the perfunctory
"I'm going to Disneyland/world" commercial. Had to tape
the game in which Barry Bonds broke the single season HR record
last year. Oh yeah, taped David Letterman when he did his show
from SF (historical? Yikes!).
You want miscellany--I'll give you miscellany! I taped and archived
any "Kids in the Hall" I could get my hands on. When
the Beatles Anthology was broadcast, taped that and later bought
the boxed set of 10 tapes (why it is not out on DVD, I don't know).
Oh and by the way, "A Hard Day's Night is finally due out
on DVD later this month. Any Beatles interviews or other specials
I could tape, I did. Obviously, I taped "Power of Myth"
then bought the DVDs later on. Frontline's 6 hour Historical Jesus
special--yep, got it.
And now I'm hooked on J-Dorama. My VCR is set to tape weekly episodes
of the morning drama "Churasan," but since I missed
a good 48 episodes (they air in Japan and on some US tv stations
as daily 15 minute eps), I tracked down a trading source and acquired
those. I also tape "Toshiie and Matsu" every week and
the Sunday Night J-Dorama whatever that happens to be. My collection
of J-Dorama tapes is growing since there are many that have already
aired here and they never rerun them. I finally broke down and
bought an all region DVD player when I couldn't get region 1 versions
of certain J-Pop DVDs and replaced my aging VCR with a very nice
Toshiba DVD/VCR combo so I figure I'm set in the recording and
playback equipment department, at least until the ever elusive
single standard affordable DVD recorder arrives on the scene.
Is it a sickness? No, I don't think so since it doesn't interfere
with the more important aspects of my life. Is it an obsession?
I couldn't say, although I have been a collector (baseball cards,
historic publications, Vinyl LPs, tapes and CDs, guitars, musical
gadgets, sci-fi memorabilia and so on) and an unashamed pack rat
my whole life so this taping habit would seem to be consistent
with those personality traits. Do I get a great deal of enjoyment
out of all this? Absolutely. And that's what it's all about in
my book.
A8
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