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Who is the sexiest vampire in all the seasons their in not just one(can only be in one episode)? -- Drusilla, 07:15:43 10/01/04 Fri

In my eyes Spike is definately the sexiest vampire in all of Buffy and Angel because of that great body, that quirky attitude, and that bad-ass look! He could Bite Me any day!
- Drusilla(When with Spike and not liking Angel)

Replies:

[> Harmony! :-) -- Ames, 07:59:14 10/01/04 Fri

[> Willow -- Duell, 08:23:45 10/01/04 Fri

[> Darla? -- Vickie, 09:22:35 10/01/04 Fri

If not Spike, or if you prefer the females, definitely Darla.

[> Re: Who is the sexiest vampire in all the seasons their in not just one(can only be in one episode)? -- Loki, 09:29:08 10/01/04 Fri

Evil Angel. Hello, Leather Pants!

[> Dracula ... he even seduced Buffy ... -- frisby, 10:07:13 10/01/04 Fri

Dracula (5.1) won over even Buffy, at least for a day or so ...

... of course both Angel and Spike are in the same league!

[> Angelus (yes I *liked* his hair!) -- Masq, 10:15:19 10/01/04 Fri

Sunday in "The Freshman" was pretty hot, too.

Although my heart belongs to VampWillow.

[> Tector Gorch, because inteligence is sexy! -- Dlgood, 10:16:26 10/01/04 Fri

[> Sandy, who was almost Riley's first... -- CW, 10:44:07 10/01/04 Fri

[> Darla, baby! -- Vegeta, 11:21:37 10/01/04 Fri

[> [> Sunday! Loves me them sexy smartass sophomores, -- shambleau, 14:28:29 10/01/04 Fri

[> Spike -- Lace, 17:10:54 10/01/04 Fri

[> But who has the sexiest vamp face? -- Ames, 09:15:04 10/02/04 Sat

I notice nobody mentioned vampire Buffy from Nightmares, who only appeared in vamp face.

I vote puppet Angel!

[> Sexiest vamp face? Drusilla. -- cjl, 09:59:40 10/04/04 Mon

This is just me, but I found VampFace!Dru sexier than just plain-faced Dru. (Sick, I know.)

Sexiest vampire (female): Harmony. No brains, but what a body. (Shallow, I know.)

Sexiest vampire (male): Spike. 'Cause the Spike/Faith scenes in Who Are You and Dirty Girls just don't lie.

The Vampire a Girl Could Take Home to Mother: Holden Webster. Martial arts skills, psychology degree, boyish charm--your parents would love him. The "tied to a primal, all-consuming evil" thing? If he's a doctor, Mom could overlook that.

Lamest vampire ever: Tom Lenk as Cyrus. Made Harm look like a blooming genius.

Dusted too soon: Sunday. Holden. Dalton.

Her Majesty: Darla.

[> [> Re: Sexiest vamp face? Drusilla. -- auroramama, 08:59:28 10/06/04 Wed

This is just me, but I found VampFace!Dru sexier than just plain-faced Dru. (Sick, I know.)

The script for "School Hard" says Dru's vamp face is supposed to be eerily beautiful as well as horrible, so at least it was intentional. Sexier than human-face Dru? I can almost see it. I'll agree that Dru is sexy when she's dangerous, not when she's pathetic, but doesn't she entrance Kendra in human face? She was pretty hot then.

The "tied to a primal, all-consuming evil" thing? If he's a doctor, Mom could overlook that.

I fear you are right. Fun to talk to, also. Sigh.

Misprinted Ballot (OT, but still important!) -- Loki, 08:50:24 10/01/04 Fri

I received a misprinted ballot for the upcoming election. Sort of a serious issue, and I'm trying to let people know what's going on.

Here's a copy of the e-mail I've been sending out; included is a link to a partial scan of the misprinted ballot. Feel free to circulate widely.

Start e-mail:

Please circulate widely, Election Issue

http://www.umich.edu/~mlafler/ballot.jpg
This is the absentee ballot I received. Look closely at the Presidential
section. I am registered to vote in Alma MI, in Gratiot Co.

I feel this is a matter of the utmost importance, as voting is one of the
most important civic duties, Michigan promises to be a battleground state
with a very close election, the last election had ballot issues, and this
election in general promises to be a close election.

I did not scan the entire ballot because of an (irrational) paranoia about people using
it to commit voter fraud; however, I feel that people should also see the
glaring error that has been mailed out.

I have contacted the company, who assures me that it was just a "computer
hiccup" and that they will reprint them and mail out new ballots. This
could still lead to confusion, though, as some people may still vote on
the wrong ballot, not realizing the subtle difference. If you would like
to contact the company that printed the ballots, here is their contact
information:

Miller Consultations & Elections, Inc., 231-869-4349

Please help to ensure that this election does not have a repeat of
Florida's fiasco, and notify anyone who might be interested in this.

Sincerely,
Marissa Lafler
mlafler@gmail.com

Replies:

[> Thanks, Fwd'ed to MoveOn.org -- long time lurker :), 11:06:58 10/01/04 Fri

[> [> Re: Thanks, Fwd'ed to MoveOn.org -- Corwin of Amber, 19:33:33 10/02/04 Sat

I'd suggest you also forward it to the FEC.

Interesting discussion over at whedonesque.com -- Pony, 17:40:51 10/01/04 Fri

There's a bit of controversy about some pictures of SMG in the very latest issue of Entertainment Weekly. The pictures depict her in some stereotypical horror/slasher movie scenes - and cast very much as the victim.

It's led to some really interesting posts both pro and con at Whedonesque that I thought the board might be interested in. The discussion and link to the photos is here: http://whedonesque.com/?comments=4981

As for myself I clicked over to check the photos before I read any of the response and found myself quite unexpectedly disturbed. Too mainstream to be art and too creepy to be innocuous, it's like a Cindy Sherman photo without any layers beyond surface... well you decide. But here's a copy of the letter I emailed to EW:

It's great to see Sarah Michelle Gellar on the cover of your magazine, unfortunately the content of the images inside leaves a lot to be desired. I realize you're going for the "homage to the slasher movie" angle with the photos but I think you've stepped over the edge into glamourous snuff film. It's an extra little smack in the face for "Buffy" fans - a show that was created to provide a feminist response to the woman as victim role in horror. A case could be made that using Ms. Gellar in such away is an ironic comment on the stereotype - but you've still got her passive and scantily clad while being menaced by a male figure in a violent and sexual way. Not the most empowering moment for your magazine, or unfortunately for Ms. Gellar.

Replies:

[> On the other hand... -- Rob, 19:55:06 10/01/04 Fri

If these pictures were non-descript horror movie cliche exploitation pictures, I would agree with you completely, but I think that the fact that each shot is a direct homage to a specific film, each of which is noted on each page, does improve the case that they are intended to be viewed ironically. I don't particularly enjoy these pictures. Some, in fact, I agree, are quite disturbing, but I think that that aspect should be taken into consideration.

Rob

[> [> Re: On the other hand... -- Pony, 23:26:12 10/01/04 Fri

It's only the two with the male assailants that bother me, the rest I'd agree with your assessment. And I gotta ask, in what way does a dead doll-like SMG being grabbed from behind in front of shattered and bloody glass relate to Rosemary's Baby? Unless it's a stunningly tasteless Sharon Tate reference...

[> [> [> Re: On the other hand... -- Rob, 23:38:56 10/01/04 Fri

And I gotta ask, in what way does a dead doll-like SMG being grabbed from behind in front of shattered and bloody glass relate to Rosemary's Baby? Unless it's a stunningly tasteless Sharon Tate reference...

I haven't seen Rosemary's Baby, so I just assumed it was a scene from the film. All of the other shots were definitely referencing the movies they were from. But, yeah, if that was a Sharon Tate reference, because Roman Polanski directed the film, describing it as tasteless would be going easy on it.

Rob

[> Here's my view on the "beautiful woman in danger" images and movies -- Finn Mac Cool, 08:42:55 10/02/04 Sat

Speaking as a guy, it's easier to be frightened/disturbed by an image or movie if the victim is an attractive woman. Why you might ask? Well, the woman is very beautiful, so we're attracted to them, and attraction leads to liking. Now, men don't always like women who are attractive, but the liking comes much more quickly and easily. Note how men will sometimes go out of their way to do something for a beautiful woman even if they have no real expectation of dating or having sex with her. Now, as I was saying, being attracted to the victim makes it easier to like her, and once we like someone we tend to sympathize with them. Sympathizing with the victim is fairly crucial to actually being frightened by what's going on. I know that several of those pictures wouldn't seem quite as creepy to me if it were a man instead of a woman in SMG's position.

[> [> Hmm -- Pony, 15:28:42 10/02/04 Sat

Ah but now you see we're getting into the whole issue of male gaze in cinema. Is the viewer of the image then intended to be male? And by having the victim in such a vulnerable position is the viewer made to feel more powerful as a result? Since the images with the man in them have a strong sexual component are we then meant to associate her vulnerability with sexual availability? The wacky world of political film analysis - good times.

I agree that we would all rather see beautiful people doing anything, be it doing laundry or leaving a good-looking corpse. I also know the long tradition of attractive women being killed in horror movies, I'm just not sure what those two particular photos in EW are trying to say. The camp or irony simply isn't coming through - and in the context of such a mainstream publication I'm not sure if the viewer is intended to consider anything beyond the surface. The result is pretty but empty, and as a result associates beauty and sex with violence. I'm not asking for censorship or anything more than a discussion of what the pictures convey, but I get the feeling that's more than what EW put into them. My 2 cents.

[> [> [> Well.... -- Sophist, 16:58:44 10/02/04 Sat

Is the viewer of the image then intended to be male?

Maybe. Depends on the target audience these days, doesn't it?

More seriously, our reaction to a scene of threat depends on how genuine the threat appears. I doubt anyone would seriously contend that an unarmed woman appearing to attack a man would raise in any viewer quite the same immediate reaction as the vice versa would. The former situation would appear threateninng only if the woman were armed, preferably with a gun. In that case, though, we'd be drifting away from horror and slouching towards thriller.

IMHO, the genre requires certain stereotypes precisely because only those reliably generate the desired audience response.

[> [> [> [> Re: Well.... -- Pony, 17:34:44 10/02/04 Sat

The question for me I guess is what is the reaction the photos are trying to elicit in the viewer - is it sympathetic horror, vicarious fear? Or is it titillation?

IMHO, the genre requires certain stereotypes precisely because only those reliably generate the desired audience response.

I wonder if that's a bit of a self-fulfilling loop. Does the audience expect such conventions in horror because those are the only ones presented?

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Well.... -- Sophist, 18:39:28 10/02/04 Sat

what is the reaction the photos are trying to elicit in the viewer - is it sympathetic horror, vicarious fear? Or is it titillation?

You mean you are bound by authorial intent? :)

How do YOU interpret them? And what does that tell us about you? Heh.

I wonder if that's a bit of a self-fulfilling loop. Does the audience expect such conventions in horror because those are the only ones presented?

I think the conventions are more fundamental than that. The damsel in distress long predates horror films.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Cigar just a cigar? -- Pony, 20:20:53 10/02/04 Sat

I think the conventions are more fundamental than that. The damsel in distress long predates horror films.

Primordial misogyny then?

;)

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Quite the contrary my dear Watson.... -- Sophist, 20:43:07 10/02/04 Sat

Take the effect on me of such photos. I feel sympathy for the damsel and a desire to rescue her. Picture me as Spike in Help.

That must mean such photos are ennobling.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I leave you to your noble mag- pursuits then... -- Pony, 08:53:30 10/03/04 Sun

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! -- Rufus, 19:24:48 10/03/04 Sun

Sophist, now forever known as Spike just trying to Help.

I saw the pics and article. The photos didn't bug me at all. They are an homage to horror films not a Buffy shoot. SMG is an actress, not just the character from her series. I can see why an actor fears being typecast...people begin to only want to see them in one character. SMG is smart to try to show she has more range as an actor by not sticking to only one image of herself.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> With me around, you'll never have to worry about that creep from Full House. -- Sophist, 20:27:53 10/03/04 Sun

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Who??? <G> -- Rufus, 01:45:03 10/04/04 Mon

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Don't you mean "that creep from Home Improvement"? -- Doug, 10:36:31 10/04/04 Mon

The villain of "Help" played Brad on Home Improvement.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Er, uh, yeah. Him. -- Sophist, 13:41:35 10/04/04 Mon

[> [> [> Re: Male Gaze ? -- Rich, 08:20:56 10/03/04 Sun

The Damsel in distress has been a theme in fiction of all kinds forever. Maybe it's just me, but aren't "Woman in Danger" movies a staple on the Lifetime channel, which is specifically targeted at women ? For whatever reason, this theme seems to appeal to women as well as to men - although probably not for the same reasons.

(I almost typed "me" instead of "men" in that last sentence, but that's another issue).

[> [> [> [> It was ever thus? Bleah - give me subversion any day -- Pony, 08:46:46 10/03/04 Sun

[> [> [> [> [> Re: It was ever thus? Bleah - give me subversion any day -- Rich, 11:14:11 10/03/04 Sun

Not disagreeing here - after all, I watch Buffy, a show which stands the damsel in distress theme on its' head. All I am saying is that it isn't just men who respond to it.

[> [> [> the other way around is worse, if you ask me -- anom, 08:57:39 10/11/04 Mon

"The result is pretty but empty, and as a result associates beauty and sex with violence."

I first moved to NYC in 1980 & soon found (from reading over people's shoulders in the subway) that in the New York tabloids, any halfway-decent-looking woman could be a beauty. All she had to do was get murdered. As long as they could find a fairly nice photo to publish, there'd be a headline over it like "BEAUTY SLAIN IN STAIRCASE!" It was disgusting, amounting to an attempt to apply the stereotype from fiction to real life, & to fit real women who had been murdered into the menaced-beauty image, as if it were something glamorous. I haven't seen anything so blatant since the 1st few years I was here (maybe it's just that I quit reading tabloids over people's shoulders--nah, it really has been toned down), but I don't think that way of thinking has died out, & it's only perpetuated by the promotion of such images in fiction.

Let's hope subversion in fiction can undermine that way of thinking in real life too. And that discussing it like this can lead to its being questioned more. Thanks for bringing this up, Pony.

[> [> [> [> Thanks anom! -- Pony, 13:12:09 10/11/04 Mon

[> The pics are cool. SMG just went up a peg in my eyes for having the courage to say yes to this -NT -- ZachsMind, 17:51:58 10/02/04 Sat

notext

[> Just what I need for my wall! -- Briar Rose, 15:24:57 10/07/04 Thu

I can't agree with the arguement that these are in any way typical of the WIJ category and thererfore demeaning of women or SMG in general.

As a homage to some of my favorite horror movies, I see them as brilliant examples of artistic value that shows the sensuality and sexuality in most good horror media.

Set aside the feminist agenda for a moment and they show the inherent beauty of all Gothic romance/horror: The power of sexuality taken from the facade of the innocent female, when inside she craves the release. No good horror tale leaves that out.

Don't forget that the entire vampire genre is based on exactly this theorum! Regardless of the Buffy-verse's spin on the "just a girl" powerful enough to take on the deamons and other nasties, Buffy Summers regularly gave into the romance of the deamon lover. First with Angel, a small (but powerful) encounter with Dracula, then with Spike and, at last sighting, with The Immortal. She was drawn to the passion and freedom that the latent sexual energy of the deamon possessed and that freed her to accept her own sexual power.

If you have ever seen the original Cat People, you will know that the scene portrayed in this photo shoot is about the feminine power unleashed and used to lure an unsuspecting man to his own doom. >^..^<

The only one I think they dropped the ball on was the "Crash" send up. They really could have went with something more evocative of that one.

If I really wanted to open up a can of worms, I'd bring up one of Freud's other theories. . . . One of which he was most correct and that women all over the world loathe him so much for, even though it's such a common fantasy that it makes the basis of most romance novels gel.*LOL

[> [> Pfft -- Pony, 13:09:07 10/11/04 Mon

If you're talking about rape fantasies in your Freud reference I suggest you go a bit deeper. There is nothing wrong or unhealthy about such fantasies, however you have to realize what they're really about, which is not having to take responsibility for one's desires. Some would suggest that if women felt more comfortable with their sexuality, and unashamed about expressing it, such fantasies wouldn't have much prevalence. It seems to me BtVS' message was more about integrating darker impulses rather than surrendering all agency to them. But hey, control/power/desire and certainly sex/death are rich territories to mine and they're certainly what gives the horror genre its power. However my problem with the two photos that feature an attacker (as I've said I have no problem with the other pictures) is that in a mainstream publication like EW we aren't being encouraged to think about such things - it's not an art magazine or even really a film magazine, it exists to sell product and provide information - so when these images appear without context it's like they're becoming normalized and unremarkable. They lose some of the jolt - and everybody loses, horror fan and feminist alike.

why did jasmine kiss angel?was she trying to send him to hell, or was it a spur of the moment thing? -- ghady, 08:03:49 10/02/04 Sat

Replies:

[> Re: spur of the moment thing? -- DorianQ, 15:54:04 10/05/04 Tue

Pretty much a spur of the moment thing. From what I've heard, it was rewritten to accommodate Charisma Carpenter's absence (is that the right spelling?) because of her continued maternity leave. Originally, I think she was supposed to wake up after Jasmine's spell was broken and kill her herself. Connor showing up there was the only part of Peace Out that felt awkward to me.

"I have no breath" - sudden thought on an old issue -- KdS, 02:59:52 10/03/04 Sun

I'm talking about Angel's alleged mystical inability to resuscitate Buffy in Prophecy Girl. Nobody has been able to come up with a convincing explanation of this (if your lungs work enough to talk, they work enough to do CPR) apart from some waffle about the possibly toxic/disease-carrying properties of vampire breath. Most people put it down to a very cool piece of symbolism with no real practical justification and leave it at that.

But this morning I suddenly thought that there may be a very simple explanation. We know that S1-2 Angel lies to people to make them think better of him, whether it's by omission (failing to say he's a vampire, agreeing with Buffy that vampires killed his family when in fact he was the vampire in question, failing to mention his connections to Darla, Spike and Dru until forced to) or directly (the infamous claim never to have tasted human blood since his cursing). Could it be that he simply didn't know CPR, but made up a mystical-sounding waffle to stop Xander from blaming him?

Replies:

[> Re: "I have no breath" - sudden thought on an old issue -- LadyStarlight, 07:52:56 10/03/04 Sun

That's about the best explanation I've heard for the whole debate thing. Makes complete and total sense to me.

[> [> Re: "I have no breath" - sudden thought on an old issue -- Alistair, 12:01:29 10/03/04 Sun

Well, it has been shown that vampires do not breathe. They can be strangled, suffocated, placed in a box under the sea and travel to dimensions where there is no oxygen. Their bodies create the act of breathing, the diaphragm moves up and down, but there is no breath, no oxygen binding to hemoglobin. However CPR works, angel was unable to do it, because one must be alive in order to give life (except in the case of Darla's pregnancy.

[> [> [> Re: "I have no breath" - sudden thought on an old issue -- Jane, 17:20:30 10/03/04 Sun

I think that the issue is that since Angel does not actually breathe i.e. exchange oxygen and carbon dioxide in his lungs, any air that he blew into Buffy's lungs would pretty much be useless. The whole point of mouth to mouth is to keep the O2 levels in the victim's blood stream up sufficiently to maintain cell life, until the person starts to breathe spontaneously. CPR=cardiopulmonaryresuscitation; compress the heart to push the blood around, breathe in enough oxygen rich air to keep the oxygen level up in the blood. Without one, the other would not work to resuscitate the person.

[> [> [> [> Um -- KdS, 01:53:22 10/04/04 Mon

Surely air that has been rebreathed contains less oxygen than the atmosphere? Air that hasn't been metabolised should be more effective than rebreathed air for CPR.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Um -- skpe, 07:01:12 10/04/04 Mon

I don t think you can apply the standard laws of physics to vampires. They can be seen but don t show a reflection in a mirror. They can be stabbed in the hart with a sword with no effect but 'die' if stabbed wit a pencil. And when they die (redie?) they instantly turn to dust. Sunlight causes them to burst into flame but regular lighting (same wavelengths) has no effect

[> [> [> [> [> [> Explanations not difficult -- Ames, 12:05:33 10/04/04 Mon

It's not difficult to make up plausible-sounding explanations for any of these things. For example:

Q: Why does sunlight kill a vampire, but not other types of light?

A: The cell membranes of vampires are held together by demonic energy bonds. There are two inter-connected types of bonds at two different energy levels. They can be broken by damage like absorbing UV light, but reform almost instantly - as long as both types of bonds are not broken simultaneously. Fortunately only natural sunlight contains the right balance of two different frequencies of UV light to break both bonds simultaneously. When the bonds break, they liberate enough energy to cause spontaneous combustion, and the chain reaction spreads quickly, dusting the vamp.

Q: Why don't vamps have a reflection?

A: Light bouncing off vampires is altered to an "odd" quantum spin state ("odd" being a new term for a quantum property like "strange"). It can interact with normal matter, for example to be absorbed by the receptors in your eye and produce an image. But if it is reflected by normal matter (i.e., aborbed and re-emitted) the odd spin state is inverted to one which cannot interact with normal matter, and is therefore effectively invisible. It is a little-known fact that, by this type of reflection, large numbers of vampires are responsible for the "dark energy" that keeps the universe expanding. :-)

Hey, I should write a book someday, "The Physics of Vampires".

[> But vampires don't talk in the usual way -- Finn Mac Cool, 13:26:07 10/03/04 Sun

In "Conviction", when Spanky tries cutting off the flow of oxygen through his windpipe, Angel replies, "Guess what I'm doing now? Not using my windpipe." This strongly implies that, while vampires use their mouths to speak and we here it as normal speech, they don't need to pump oxygen out of their body to do it, since Angel could speak while his windpipe was closed. How they actually manage it (whether it's psychic, air being brought in and out of the mouth rather than lungs, or whatever) I don't know, but it seems pretty clear they don't use (or at least need) oxygen in order to speak.

[> [> Re: But vampires don't talk in the usual way -- corcastus, 12:27:02 10/04/04 Mon

I'm going to have to agree with this one. If their hearts don't work, digestive system doesn't work (Buffy not telling Angel how good peanut butter and chocolate are together), why would their lungs work?

Spike smoked. To use a common phrase: "I didn't inhale." One can suck on a cigarette which wouldn't require the lungs to function.

Communication has to take place some other way.

[> Here's my noprize solutions to this inconsistency.. -- ZachsMind, 07:13:03 10/04/04 Mon

1. Although technically vampires are able to inhale and exhale, they don't intake oxygen and exhale carbon dioxide. Since they are undead, any air they take in for purposes of communication or to pretend to be alive, because the vampire body is effectively dead tissue fueled by evil magicks, the breath that is exhaled has nothing of benefit to a living being. In fact one could theorize that a vampire's breath could make a living person sick if directly breathed into their lungs. So tongue kissing a vampire is especially risky, and Angel probably pops a couple Listerine breath mints just before kissing the ladies. I mean on top of everything else, he drinks pig's blood. Angel's morning breath must be positively death-inducing.

2. Angel lied. He told Xander he couldn't breathe life into Buffy because he wanted Xander to do it. He wanted Xander to know what it was like to be a hero. He also didn't wanna press his lips to Buffy with Xander watching cuz that woulda been creepy cringeworthy.

3. Angel THOUGHT that for a century or two, and lived under this blatant wrong assumption, but it's not until some time later (off camera) that it's explained to him if he can talk he can breathe. Let's face it, God love'm but Angel's really not all that bright.

4. It's just a blatant inconsistency because this is TV and the writers screwed up.

[> Re: "I have no breath" - sudden thought on an old issue -- Ann, 08:10:15 10/04/04 Mon

I like what this explanation does to the Xander-Angel relationship also.

Angel wants to be thought of as the "man" in Buffy's life. But he knows Xander was there first. In addition to Xander not blaming him, it gives a better and fuller reason for Angel's dislike of Xander in later episodes. Angel feels guilty for not knowing how to do CPR, for not saving Buffy as her "man" and, and embarrassed for all of the above. Angel does not want to be beholden to a kid. He does not want Xander to know this and realize all of what he feels. He doesn't want a kid knowing any of his secrets including those he is embarrassed by. And certainly not any weakness Angel might have.

Question on Fray -- Masq, 04:28:31 10/04/04 Mon

I'm just starting to read the Fray comic books, and I don't know, maybe it's the format, but I'm having a bit of difficulty figuring out what happened. According to the mythos, at some point in the 21st century, and demons and magics were killed/banned from the Earth by the Slayer (or Slayers) and her (their) allies.

What, in particular, happened to vampires? Were they all killed, were some of them also banned from the Earth? If they were banned, how could they survive without humans or mortal animals to prey on/make more vampires from? How did they come to re-emerge as a species in Fray's day and time?

Replies:

[> Re: Question on Fray -- Ann, 04:49:28 10/04/04 Mon

In Chapter 3 Ready Steady, we are told. It is vague. They were banned also but in Chapter 5 The Worst of It a little more is told, also vague. My guess is it is tied to the insane watchers. But we never really are told. Whedon keeps us guessing throughout. We are given info as Melaka learns it.

I am trying to keep this from being spoilery :-)

[> [> Don't worry about spoilers -- Masq, 04:59:49 10/04/04 Mon

I'm in the middle of reading it, and I want to do issue reviews, so I'm just trying to understand what's going on.

But, you know, mark your spoilers in the subject line for other people. ; )

[> [> [> Spoilers -- Finn Mac Cool, 08:17:03 10/04/04 Mon

We don't really know for sure because none of the characters know for sure. Urkonn's knowledge of the battle that banished demons from Earth is sketchy at best, and the vampires themselves don't seem clear who it was that started them up again (in fact most of them don't even realize vampires used to exist hundreds of years ago). All in all, there aren't a lot of details to go on.

[> [> [> [> Re: Spoilers -- many for Fray -- Ann, 08:22:57 10/04/04 Mon

I just wrote this elsewhere but I love multiple conversations.

My guess on the return had to do with the insane watchers that are made reference to immediately before the comment that the demons came back. Chosen slayers have something in their blood. There have been references/speculation that the watchers did too. I think maybe, that when the watchers had no one to watch after the demons were banned, they went kinda nuts. Their need to watch was as strong as Buffy's need to slay. So I think one of the crazy ones brought back the demons. Opened the hellmouth and let them out. They needed a purpose.

[> [> [> [> Re: Spoilers -- Peter M, 08:50:52 10/04/04 Mon

I thought it might be possible that the new vampires were all sired by the ones who weren't banished like the vampires with souls.

[> [> [> [> [> I donno... -- Masq, 09:34:38 10/04/04 Mon

It sounds like all demons, vampires, and magicks were banished. And presumably Angel either died in the alley in Not Fade Away or shanshued and is no longer a vampire by that time. Or Spike.

Giving it some thought, I realized they knew what vampires were in Pylea. They called them "vantals", so presumably vampires do exist in other dimensions (or proto-vampires, like the Turok-Han), and could find their way back to Earth through portals where they can make more conventional Earth-type vampires.

[> [> [> [> [> [> I think that's it -- you got it! -- frisby, 10:29:54 10/04/04 Mon

I think you got it. Buffy somehow becomes the last slayer in the 21st century (maybe not buffy?) and all demons and vampires and magic itself disappear, maybe banished to another dimension, and the world we seem to inhabit comes to be, such that we look back and think the legends of demons and vampires and magic and slayers are merely myth -- but somehow, mysteriously, in Fray's time, things return.

Where 'does' Joss comes up with such interesting stories?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> I donno, but I was riveted -- Masq, 10:51:15 10/04/04 Mon

Woke up too early this morning, was bored, read all eight issues in one sitting before it was time to get ready for work.

Good story-telling. ; )

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Maybe you have spec on this question... -- Masq, 10:52:38 10/04/04 Mon

Why the legend of Meleka's time has it that there was only one Slayer in the final battle in the 21st century, given that there were many of them after "Chosen".

And why the Slayer lineage went back to be "Only One" by Meleka's day?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Maybe you have spec on this question... -- Ann, 11:08:17 10/04/04 Mon

Maybe the chosen finale choice Buffy made was a one time gift. Maybe the slayer line still only was one girl, from Faith, and after all of these girls died off, only one slayer remained by way of Faith from which came Melaka. After Buffy died those numerous times, other than the first, no slayers came from those. So maybe none came after Buffy made them all slayers.

Or because Buffy did this, and she wasn't in the slayer line anymore, the result didn't go forward like it would maybe if Faith (the real slayer line) had done it.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Maybe you have spec on this question... -- Vickie, 11:41:46 10/04/04 Mon

A few things confuse me (only a few? you say) about Chosen, and Ann's post highlights them.

What was the "choice" the potentials made? It wasn't about whether to be activated. We saw girls all over the world (who Giles and the coven overlooked, presumably) being activated when Willow did her mojo thing. Nobody allowed those girls a choice.

Was the choice about whether to stay and fight? Only thing I've come up with so far.

How does the slayer line work after Chosen? Are potentials "actuated" at birth? At puberty? In the womb? (I sure hope not.)

Does the activation of this many slayers dilute the power available? Drain it from the line, so that eventually there will be only one again? (Or none?)

I think Ann has a great idea--the activation was a one-time deal. After all our Chosen slayers ended their days, the only new one was called by Faith's death. Simple, clean.

Kind of weakens Chosen; I'm not fond of that.

I don't know why Buffy's involvement would weaken the spell, Willow did the spell. Buffy didn't do the activation any more or less than Faith did. They were both involved and consenting, but Willow made the change to the slayer lineage.

Fun to think about.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Maybe it was the remaining Watchers -- Masq, 12:07:16 10/04/04 Mon

Perhaps Buffy's gift was meant to be for all time, anyone who could be a Slayer would be.

But perhaps the Watchers who survived Season 7 didn't like that. They wanted their power back. And since their forebearers were the ones who created the Slayer to begin with, they had access to the mojos to reinstate the only-one thing.

This is plausible by the fact that, by Meleka Fray's time, the Watchers were still around, and pretty much fanatical and insane.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Maybe the banishing affected it -- Finn Mac Cool, 12:10:03 10/04/04 Mon

Something happened that caused all (or at least most) magical/demonic entities to be banished from our world. However, Urkonn says that even after this happened there were still girls with powers, but, since there was nothing for them to fight, they were never informed about their heritage or approached by the Watchers. So, maybe the big mystical battle that removed most magic from the world was designed to spare the Slayer, but it could only spare the traditional "one in every generation" rather than having all potentials all over the world activated.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> The Potentials' choice -- auroramama, 13:26:31 10/04/04 Mon

What was the "choice" the potentials made? It wasn't about whether to be activated. We saw girls all over the world (who Giles and the coven overlooked, presumably) being activated when Willow did her mojo thing. Nobody allowed those girls a choice.

If I understood correctly, it was a nonverbal offer which was nonverbally accepted or rejected. A tentative translation might be: "Here is power. You can take it into your own hands, or not. Do you want it?" We didn't see anyone who rejected the power, but there must have been some; after all, Buffy would have when she was called.

This is not at all the perfect way to offer someone a life-altering choice, and the results weren't perfect. No way to spell out the terms, no details in fine print or even bold print. But I think the girls we saw were meant to show us the joyful seizing of power, whether to defend oneself or simply to whack a ball really far. It has consequences, not all good ones. But not having power has consequences too.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Dana in "Damage" was a consequence -- Masq, 14:14:01 10/04/04 Mon

Which means Mutant Enemy did see the difficulties with what Buffy did and tried to acknowledge them in that episode, whether successfully or unsuccessfully.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Dana in "Damage" was a consequence -- auroramama, 10:45:04 10/05/04 Tue

Exactly. This works both in literal and metaphorical terms. Literally, Dana was given supernatural power and became a danger to the innocent. But this wasn't Willow-level supernatural acting-out, requiring unimaginable powers and threatening apocalypse. If Spike hadn't been a vampire, Dana wouldn't have needed to be a Slayer to capture and maim him. All Dana needed, to have the power to harm ordinary people, was to be *stronger than they were*, like the guy who tortured her was stronger than she was. All of us probably have this power over someone in our lives.

Showing us Dana *and* the woman in Chosen who got the power to fight her attacker suggests awareness of both points: giving people power is dangerous, but there are people out there right now with the power to hurt other people, and a few of them -- us -- are using it. We don't have a level playing field before the Slayers are created, and we don't have one afterward. I'd personally feel a bit safer with Slayers around, especially if supernatural baddies also existed, but I know I could also be the victim of the next Dana. I'm willing to take that chance, because I'm already taking the chance of being the victim of any of the other people who could hurt me.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Maybe you have spec on this question... -- Ann, 14:13:05 10/04/04 Mon

Thanks.
Was the choice about whether to stay and fight? Only thing I've come up with so far.

I think what the activation did was just give the girls another weapon. The philosophical question remained the same. Choose to fight or not, to raise the sword or not. But because of the new weapon, they were able, if they wanted, to make the stay and fight choice. Anne's choice, in the end of Angel, using the weapons she had, was to stay and fight. The weapons are just different.

I think my one time idea of the activation, would fit with what we know. If JW wants to make it some other reason, that is ok with me ;-)

I am not sure this weakens Chosen because the whole point was to fight with what you have. Whether one is stronger or not, isn't the point I don't think, although stronger weapons do help. What value should we place on each contribution?

Good point about Willow as she was the one who changed the slayer line when she brought Buffy back. That is what irrevocably changed it right? So this new variant may have done who knows what to it, resulting in what we see in Fray.

Much fun to think about!

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Maybe you have spec on this question... (spoiler alert) -- Dochawk, 13:25:27 10/04/04 Mon

At Comicon in 2003, Joss addressed this question. he said he knew that "Chosen" presented difficulties with Fray which he hoped to resolve by the time he wrote the next Fray series (anyone have any idea when that will happen??) Fray was written before the idea for Chosen crystallized in his head.

As to where the vamps reappeared from, if you have finished all 8 episodes (issues) I think its clearer that (Fray Spoiler ahead)...... they were brought in from the outside by a different force.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Maybe you have spec on this question... (spoiler alert) -- Masq, 13:45:40 10/04/04 Mon

they were brought in from the outside by a different force.

And by that you DON'T mean those demons who are trying to control the portal, the ones who Urkonn works for. You mean some other force. Because the demons Urkonn works for wanted Fray to kill the vampires, and why bring the vampires over just to ask the Slayer to kill them? Seems inefficient, from a time-management stand point.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Maybe you have spec on this question... (spoiler alert) -- Dochawk, 14:25:39 10/04/04 Mon

Yup thats who I mean. I think there is a much larger purpose behind them, they need the Slayer, but they need her controlled and trained. What better way than providing her with an enemy she should defeat who will make her stronger and train her. Perhaps she would have never even realized her power if there were no lurks to fight?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Maybe you have spec on this question... (spoiler alert) -- Ann, 14:26:44 10/04/04 Mon

Seems inefficient, from a time-management stand point.

That just made me think of Illyria. Maybe one of her kind is in on this. Time passing was not an issue for any of them, so ??

Or

Maybe the vampires had to be brought back to reactive the slayer line. When they were banned, gone, maybe that had something to do with the slayers not being called. No enemy, no calling. So the calling had to be renewed, for the demons to be allowed back in. Maybe that is why the twins Melaka and Harth each split the powers and attributes of a slayer. The recipe, so to speak, had been screwed up, so when the two eggs got zapped to be chosen(my theory only), each of them shared the powers. Harth was vamped on purpose, not by accident, they wanted to vamp them both, to alter the line completely. By retaking and vamping this now double slayer line, demons would rule forever. But it didn't work out that way. It is starting to sound very Jasmine like in planning. Maybe somehow the twins were placed much like Connor was. Weirder things have happened. I will have to think about this more.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> here's a terrible answer -- frisby, 15:10:17 10/04/04 Mon

I suspect that the Fray position simply came before the plot of Chosen was decided. I know that's a terrible answer but I think it might possibly be the real reason why.

But, surely we can come up with other possibilities? Something for "Buffy: the Movie" to address?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> i should have read ahead -- many possibilities above -- frisby, 15:13:56 10/04/04 Mon

There's several possibilities listed above as a result of so many thinking together on the problem.

wow

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> If I were chosen to wank the arc... -- OnM, 19:45:22 10/04/04 Mon

(not to be confused with pairs of animals and a deluge or anything)

... I would probably do a reverse of Chosen, and have the Slayers collectively give up their power in order to banish the demons et al.

In my theory as to how Willow performed the enabling spell in Chosen, every time a Slayer passed on, the Slayer portion of her spirit or energy was stored in the Scythe. Over the millenia, that's a lot of stored Slayer power-- which Willow released and distributed, enabling the mass calling of new Slayers. (A deleted line in Whedon's original script for B7.22 pretty much asserts this idea also.)

In some future time, things have gotten really bad with the demons and vamps etc., and a Slayer (Buffy? Faith? {It's Faith in my version, because it's her turn to be brilliant and come up with this idea.}) realizes that the spell could be reversed, the power re-concentrated back into the Scythe, and then used as the metaphysical catalyst to banish the demons from our plane of existence.

Faith, and all of the other Slayers die, but the demons are gone. The Watchers remain, of course.

As does the Scythe, which still contains the Slayer essence. In Melaka's time, someone-- probably a Watcher-- uses it to restart the Slayer line after some vampires return to this dimension (by whatever means).

Sound plausible?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: If I were chosen to wank the arc... -- Jane, 22:26:23 10/04/04 Mon

I like this interpretation, OnM. It certainly sounds plausible, and would explain why the Scythe was only able to be "King Arthured" out of the stone by a Slayer. Reversing the spell to repower the Scythe and use it to expell all the demons is a brilliant idea. I'd buy that theory.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: If I were chosen to wank the arc... -- Alistair, 07:26:00 10/05/04 Tue

I think that if the series does not continue in movie form, perhaps we can assume that sometime in the future (to be consistent with Fray), Buffy and the gang find some way to rid the Earth of all demons, just like the Old Ones were banished before. Except this time, all demonic life is sent to other dimensions and the hellmouth closes. Eventually, cracks form (like they did in Quortoth when Connor was there) and some are able to return, because the laws of metaphysics must not be able to lock a dimension from any reality rips or portals entirely. The Old Ones then create a plan to return to Earth, but they are not ready yet during the time of Fray.

If it is true that the next season of Angel was going to deal with the apocalypse- post apocalyptic LA, then it would make sense that with the rise of demonic activity, the slayers find a way to exile all demons back again.

[> [> [> [> Yeah, that was my impression, too. Very little back history -- Masq, 09:27:16 10/04/04 Mon

The demon guy did say that the final battle involved A Slayer (singular) and her allies. Which sort of implies that at the time the battle took place, there was only one Slayer, which doesn't jive with what happened in "Chosen".

Perhaps there was more than one Slayer at the final battle and that knowledge has been lost.

At any rate, after the battle, it seems that the old rule about "Only One" goes back into effect, because that rule is certainly in effect in Meleka's day.

[> [> [> [> [> I was thinking that... -- Rob, 00:16:15 10/05/04 Tue

...perhaps Buffy does indeed end up banishing all of the demons from this dimension in her lifetime, and so no new Slayers are called after that point, and over the years, the multitudes of Slayers' names, identities, etc. were lost to history, due to an oversaturation of Slayers, if you will. Since she is the one who leads the final battle and is the last single, identifable Slayer, she is given the credit for the accomplishment, and after that is done, no new Slayers are called. If Buffy's generation of Slayers was the last, it's possible that by the time of Fray, no knowledge exists that there were any other Slayers. Maybe "history" wouldn't remember them as being true Slayers, in the sense that they weren't lone warriors. Remembering a succession of girls, one at a time is one thing, but when there are hundreds at a time, it may have been impossible to document each as a separate person. Perhaps they were just considered Buffy's army.

Rob

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I was thinking that... -- Rufus, 01:46:34 10/05/04 Tue

I kinda thought that it was a sort of reset thing with the watchers. How to fit the multitude of Slayers in would be for a sacrifice of a sort when the demons are bannished from this reality. Look at that one frame where it appears that the Slayer and the demons are ejected from this reality. How about if that meant Slayers instead of one. Then when the vampires somehow find their way back, the Watchers have a part in starting the "chosen one" stuff all over again cause that's the only way they know. That means that possibly only old history is found and the Buffy effect is unknown to what's left of the Watchers, or in their collective insanity the idea strikes them as crazy...;)

[> [> [> [> [> [> They definitely say that-- -- Masq, 09:45:20 10/05/04 Tue

Slayers were there in each generation between the 21st century and Fray, or at least potentials were, but none of them were "called" because there were no demons.

That fact is in the comic.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Here's what I think -- BrianWilly, 11:56:20 10/06/04 Wed

And this is what I'm going to implement in my upcoming fanfic (self-props ahoy!)

After the biga$$ 21st Centurty battle in which Buffy and the rest of the Chosen fought in, there were no demons anymore, so they decide that there's no need for more Slayers, and that in fact so many superpowered women with nowhere to channel this strength would in fact be more harmful than good.

So Willow reverses the spell that she cast, making it so that the Slayer line is only carried through one girl again. Why not abolish the line altogether? Because they needed a backup plan: they know that someday the demons may return, and that Slayers would be needed again. My guess is that the current Slayer line of which Melaka is a part of is the contingency plan: as long as there is always at least one Slayer out there, there exists the Potential for the rest of them to be called again. Another awakening as in season 7. You might say that line of Slayers following the 21st century are carrying with them the Slayer gene, and that at some point it will be the catalyst for the Slayer power to be released again everywhere, when it is needed. It might not even be needed in Melaka's time. But it will.

We see in the Fray chapter of Tales of the Slayers, which is written by Joss, that there are vestiges of the Slayer legacy still around which were not left by the now-insane Watcher's Council. Melaka finds a hidden library, with the image of the Scythe etched into its floor, filled with information on the Slayers leading right up to Buffy. As the original council was destroyed, the only people who could have left this for the Slayers-to-come would of course be the Scooby Gang. The Scythe motif on the floor is perfect indication of this: the Scythe is obviously not associated with the original oppressive Shadowmen Watcher's Council, but with the new-and-improved-Scooby-led-feminine-YAY Watcher's Council.

My theory is that along with the Watcher's Diaries, Willow left information amongst these stacks of information on how to cast the awakening spell once it was needed again. Urkonn tells Melaka that magicks were gone from the earth...and yet, based on what we know of magic, how can something that is a part of the earth be stripped from it? And more importantly, we see Harth performing a spell to raise the big crawly snakebeast that Melaka fought in the Fray season finale...uh, I mean, in the final chapters. If magic was ever gone, it's certainly back now. Something that is a fabric of this reality can't be taken from it. It's probably more correct to say that people eventually forgot how to use it as the civilization grew more technological.

I also think that Urkonn's information probably isn't as trustworthy as we're led to believe. His superiors obviously think little of him and less of Melaka, and would not be above divulging false information to them for the purpose of controlling them.

Wouldn't that anti-magic book used in Two to go count as a benevolent text? -- megaslayer, 10:26:04 10/04/04 Mon

The spell used to protect jonathan and andrew would count as white magic. So any spell that protects or contains information on earth/energy/gaia and how everything connects together is white/benevolent magic.

Replies:

[> Magic is usually neutral -- Majin Gojira, 04:52:21 10/05/04 Tue

And this is a perfect example of such a spell. It has benevolent purposes, and could be considered "White" magic, but like most spells, it really doesn't have a moral alignment. Black Magic usually refers to inately amoral deads done with magic. Causing direct harm or raising an undead army.

[> [> Not so sure about that -- shambleau, 19:14:14 10/06/04 Wed

Catherine Madison's eyes turned black when she used magic, as did Willow's when she used the spells in "Darkest Magicks" to attack Glory, absorbed the magic spells from the Magic Shop and visited Rack's pad. I take that as indicating something demonic is inherent in the use of that type of spell. Giles commented on the coven's magic coming from a different space than Dark Willow's. There seemed to be a spectrum, with benign, malign and neutral forms all existing, but with a tendency for even the neutral to either corrupt the user or lean toward chaos (see Ethan Rayne or Amy as examples).

If your intentions had to be pure to do a love spell, according to Amy, then almost no love spell could cause anything but evil, since most people would be self-interested when casting them. So are love-spells really "neutral"? Same with bringing back the dead, or curing illness. there's a built-in tendency for things to go wrong under an infinite variety of scenarios, that can't be predicted in advance. Dangerous as hell under the best circumstances doesn't translate as neutral in my book, and an awful lot of magic seems to fall in that category.

[> [> [> Re: Not so sure about that -- skeeve, 07:38:50 10/08/04 Fri

I'm not sure what black eyes or black hair indicates.
We will probably never have a definate answer.
Willow's roots get dark whenever she does magic lately.
That probably doesn't mean that all Willow's magic is now evil.

What is clear is that magic, like driving,
should be done carefully.
Magic, like drugs and cars, can have side-effects.

Willow used magic to attack.
Her eyes turned black.
That the spells came from "Darkest Magick" might or might not have mattered.

An interesting experiment would have been to take a spell from "Darkest Magick" designed for the leveling of towns and use for for something like unplugging a river.

As Xander noted to Amy, his motives were pure.

When Last We Left Our Heroes... -- ZachsMind, 14:38:47 10/04/04 Mon

Thought I'd put this here. Been working on it on my own off and on but would like other people's input. Please if you have thoughts or notes not mentioned here, feel free to add them, or correct me where I may be wrong. Please minimize any speculation or non canon ideas in this thread. The intent here is to specify where our players were last according to Mutant Enemy. From a concrete base we can then speculate and postulate more realistically.

Here we go, in no particular order.

WHEN LAST WE LEFT OUR HEROES..!

BUFFY: According to Angel 5.20 "The Girl In Question" Buffy Summers was last seen dating someone named "The Immortal" while in Italy. In 5.11 "Damage" Andrew explained Buffy was in Rome, Italy. She had been rounding up slayers in Europe and "decided she liked it there I guess."

DAWN: According to Angel 5.20 "The Girl In Question" Dawn Summers was last living with Buffy and Andrew in an Italy hotel. In 5.11 "Damage" Andrew explained Dawn was in school in Rome, Italy.

GILES: According to Angel 5.11 "Damage" Andrew explained that "Mister Giles and a few key alum have been tracking down the recently Chosen" slayers which were byproducts of events from the Buffy series finale. The intent was to find them, guide them, train them, "Giving them the full X-Men minus the crappy third act." We get the indication that Giles is based in Europe - probably England. That's not canon though.

XANDER: Andrew mentions in 5.11 "Damage" that Xander was in Africa long enough to send Andrew "an mbuna fish." We're to assume he is one of the "few key alum" helping Giles track down new Slayers.

WILLOW & KENNEDY: Andrew mentions in 5.11 "Damage" that Willow & Kennedy were in Brazil, based in Sao Paulo, but every time he spoke with them they were in Rio. We're to assume they are two of the "few key alum" helping Giles track down new Slayers.

DANA: The mentally disturbed slayer in "Damage" was last seen being taken back by Andrew and twelve other slayers to Giles & the "Sunnydale alum" to be indoctrinated.

ANDREW: According to Angel 5.20 "The Girl In Question" Andrew was last seen with two attractive ladies in an Italy hotel. He's now a Watcher.

LORNE: According to Angel 5.22 "Not Fade Away" Lorne was last seen alive and walking away sane and well, after having unceremoniously killed Lindsey in cold blood.

WESLEY: According to Angel 5.22 "Not Fade Away" Wesley received a mortal wound and died in Illyria's hands. However, she thought he was dead and left his body behind to join in the final battle, so he may have been 'only mostly dead.'

GUNN: According to Angel 5.22 "Not Fade Away" Gunn was sporting a mortal wound, facing thousands of nasty bad minions in a Los Angeles alley. Illyria theorized he had ten minutes to live. Gunn's intent was to make his last minutes memorable by taking the thirty thousand on the left.

ILLYRIA: According to Angel 5.22 "Not Fade Away" Illyria was facing thousands of nasty bad minions in a Los Angeles alley.

SPIKE: According to Angel 5.22 "Not Fade Away" Spike was facing thousands of nasty bad minions in a Los Angeles alley.

ANGEL: According to Angel 5.22 "Not Fade Away" After having killed Hamilton, Angel was facing thousands of nasty bad minions in a Los Angeles alley. His goal was to slay the dragon.

ANYA: Died just before Sunnydale cratered in the Buffy series Finale. Her body is assumed to be somewhere in the Sunnydale crater.

TARA: Died in the season six finale of Buffy. Her grave was shown in the second episode of season seven. It's assumed her coffin was either destroyed or further buried during the cratering of Sunnydale.

RILEY: Left in season six with a newlywed wife and was still fully instated with the Initiative hunting demons. Could literally be anywhere.

OZ: Left in season four after having spent time in Tibet and elsewhere honing his skills and controlling his lycanthropy. Could literally be anywhere by now.

..okay so who'd I forget and where are they?

Replies:

[> Riley wasn't with the Initiative -- Finn Mac Cool, 15:23:19 10/04/04 Mon

He joined the segment of the military that specialized in fighting demons. However, while the Initiative employed soldiers from this branch, they were a specific organization devoted to containing, studying, and determining how to manipulate demons. That program was closed down, though the military component still remains.

[> [> Re: Riley wasn't with the Initiative -- ZachsMind, 20:00:59 10/04/04 Mon

Ooh. You're right FinnMacCool. I forgot that. In "The Killer In Me" they went back to the Initiative's headquarters but it wasn't the Initiative that showed up to play cavalry. The soldier who was following agent Finn's orders didn't go into detail what his firm was called. We are led to assume it's a military operation. When Riley left in season six we were led to assume that as well. This indicates that maybe there is an extension of the American military - a respectable branch of the marines perhaps that Riley's scruples will tolerate - which could make an interesting organization for fanfiction. However, we got no specifics so it'd be speculation.

If anyone knows more about the particulars I'd appreciate it. The soldier in "TKIM" still referred to Spike as "Hostile 17" so it can be surmised some of the clerical work of The Initiative carried over into the new organization.

[> Re: When Last We Left Our Heroes... -- Vickie, 15:35:46 10/04/04 Mon

Not exactly "heroes", but...

Amy could also be, literally, anywhere. We last saw her boasting to Kennedy about how she had cursed Willow with Willow's own guilt and judgement. Since then, she might have caught wind of The First and left town with most of the rest of the population. She could turn up anywhere.

Drusilla was last seen, I think, in Crush. (Is that right? Have all her later appearances been flashbacks?) That's way back in BtVS season five, and she could be anywhere or she could be dust. I prefer dustless.

Harmony was last seen betraying Angel to Hamilton. She could still be working for whatever is left of Wolfram and Hart, or she could be in the wind.

Clem left Sunnyhell in his VW, could be anywhere. I hope he didn't head for LA.

That's all I can think of right now.

[> [> Re: When Last We Left Our Heroes... -- Zach, 20:27:24 10/04/04 Mon

All very good additions, Vickie. For all we know Amy was hiding inside the bus. More probable though she just drove out like Clem did. We never actually see her leaving Sunnydale, but it can be surmised she had ample time to escape safely, and the right cowardly mindset to do so in ample time. Actually, Amy's last appearance is in "The Killer In Me" and Clem's last appearance is in the episode "Empty Places." He was in his red VW Beetle, and talked to Buffy briefly as he was leaving Sunnydale. It's doubtful, but possible, that Amy was hiding in the trunk of Clem's bug. Again, we have nothing to confirm that so it's not canon, but if Clem could get out of town in time, there's no reason to believe Amy was unable to do so.

[> Another hero -- Vickie, 16:00:32 10/04/04 Mon

We last saw Anne (Chanterelle, Lily) packing a truck. She reminds me of the Buddhist saying "before enlightenment, cut wood, carry water. After enlightenment, cut wood, carry water." I'm sure I have a weak understanding of this saying, but to me it says that you keep plugging at the day-to-day tasks. Doing these mundane things also "saves the world."

[> [> Re: Another hero -- abracapocus, 13:33:08 10/06/04 Wed

Thanks, Vickie, for your words about Anne. Especially the great Zen quote.

Gunn's scene with Anne was one of my favorite moments for all of Angel S5. A beautiful reminder of what our supposed heroes (ahem) were *supposed* to be about, and what the fight is really for. I hope the writers of the "Angel-No Limits" virtual season 6 (which is rockin' so far: ats-nolimits.com) will include her in their story of Angel & Co.'s ongoing struggle to pick up the pieces while the cosmos continues its efforts to fall to pieces around them.

Thanks!
Ab

[> [> [> Re: Angel virtual seasons 6 -- abracapocus, 13:44:12 10/06/04 Wed

Oops--hope I wasn't tacky to plug ats-nolimits when Masq et al are working on their own virtual season 6. Sadly, I've been trained not to pay attention to things that look like banner ad images, and I didn't realize my mistake 'til I read the new thread begging for the first episode!

The more the merrier, I say! So long as such smart people are writing them, anyhoo. Thanks to Masq and co-writer (sorry, bad memory for names!!!) for all the hard work.

Ab

[> Not a hero, but what about Ethan Rayne? -- Cheryl, 20:07:14 10/04/04 Mon

Locked up in some military prison somewhere . . .or perhaps he escaped? Or is being used by the military for nefarious purposes? ;-)

[> [> Oh yeah... -- Zach, 20:35:27 10/04/04 Mon

It's been what? Since season four. "A New Man" was the last episode, where Ethan turned Giles into a demon, and Riley had Rayne carted off by military thugs. It's all speculation beyond that. We can assume he's stuck in prison, but a snarky and resourceful guy like that couldn't be held in any prison for long. Another probable outcome was that he bartered and begged his way into a comfy prison. Or maybe he had a Wolfram & Hart lawyer - that'd be ironic.

Chances are highest though that a guy with his talents was 'recruited' or 'drafted' into working for the military. In any case I doubt he's being imprisoned in the literal sense. He's powerful enough to be dangerous, but not powerful enough to be a risk. Again. All speculation beyond season four. Strange they never brought him back. I always thought he was a great nemesis for Giles.

[> [> [> Re: Oh yeah... -- Wizard, 23:22:19 10/04/04 Mon

I'd always hoped that we'd see him again. There is no way that he wouldn't have a connection or two at W&H. If anybody can take on the military and win, it's them. Then again, he worships chaos, and as Mesketet said way back in S3 of AtS "We adore trouble, but we despise chaos."

S7 would have been a perfect time for him to return, to revel in the chaos of the First's activities.

[> [> Re: Not a hero, but what about Ethan Rayne? -- skeeve, 07:30:32 10/05/04 Tue

The military used him for nefarious activities.
They wished they hadn't.

[> [> [> Oooh! I smell a fan fic! -- Vickie, 10:51:32 10/05/04 Tue

[> [> [> [> but not mine -- skeeve, 07:48:07 10/13/04 Wed

[> [> [> [> Re: Oooh! I smell a fan fic! -- botitas, 13:53:07 10/16/04 Sat

How about this. Ethan casts a spell and the USA invades a Middle Eastern country. Initially the invasion is a success but the situation soon turns into a CHAOTIC mess which pleases Ethan since he whorships CHAOS.....Nah nobody would believe it.

[> Ooh. I forgot about Faith & Wood... -- Zach, 20:41:59 10/04/04 Mon

Faith & Wood were last seen in the bus in "Chosen." Wood looked like he might have had a mortal wound, but he coulda also been faking for sympathy. Most fans assume that Faith & Wood are still together, either as friends or as lovers, with Faith sorta being a Slayer and Wood sorta being her Watcher, and they're off riding motorcycles on the open road, seeking out potentials and staking out vampires at their leisure, when they're not spending nights in seedy hotels staking one another. Hence the basis for the ever elusive "FAITH the Series." But canonically we don't know what happened to either of them beyond the Buffy series finale.

Also in the school bus were Vi and Rona. Rona appeared to have a mortal wound with but moments left to live, and Vi was screaming at her and shoving her against the bus seat, trying to be Rona's pep rally to keep her going but was probably doing more harm to Rona's internal injuries than good. We saw Vi had aquired Slayer powers, but I saw no indication that Rona had. Their fates are also left up in the air beyond "Chosen."

Man this is getting complicated. I wish I knew how to make decent flow charts..

[> [> I'm pretty sure Rona wielded the "scythe" -- Vickie, 21:27:41 10/04/04 Mon

(Call it what they like, that's no scythe.) Anyway, without going back and rewatching 7.22 to be certain, Rona's use of the weapon would indicate she was actuated along with the rest.

In the "no hero, but..." category, Olivia was last seen at the end of Hush, presumably heading back to England.

[> [> [> I recall she held it but I don't recall her being very successful at it. -NT -- Zach, 13:53:08 10/05/04 Tue

[> [> [> [> She was quite effective. -- Sophist, 10:42:03 10/06/04 Wed

From Chosen:

Rona catches the scythe and picks up where Faith left off, swinging the gleaming blade in a deadly arc. ... Rona slashes the neck of a Turok-han with the scythe, then tosses it back to Buffy

[> [> [> [> [> Rona was so effective she got a big gaping hole in her stomach. -NT -- Zach, 12:43:39 10/06/04 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> [> Are you saying she stabbed herself with the scythe? -- Sophist, 13:42:05 10/06/04 Wed

I don't get your points. You first said Rona may not have received slayer power. It was pointed out in response that she did use the scythe. You then said she didn't use it well. The transcript refutes this.

Your assertion now that she was injured after using the scythe (the transcript says nothing about a hole in the stomach) doesn't seem to have much to do with your original point about her having slayer power or the incorrect assertion that she didn't use the scythe well.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> When did I say she didn't use the scythe? -- Zach, 14:53:15 10/06/04 Wed

I don't recall mentioning the scythe. I'm questioning whether or not she received slayer powers, but she did hold the scythe at one point. Holding the scythe had no bearing on whether or not a woman had slayer power. I mean there were Potentials all over the planet getting switched on simultaneously. They didn't all wield the scythe.

Rona received the scythe from Buffy if memory serves and gave it to Faith, but took damage in the process. I took this to be a metaphorical tribute to the character of Kendra. When Rona held the scythe, she didn't seem to be very good at it and when she took damage her slayer healing abilities didn't kick in like they did for Buffy and others, which indicates to me Rona had no slayer healing abilities cuz she wasn't really a slayer.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I think we just disagree -- Vickie, 15:52:02 10/06/04 Wed

I'm not fond of Rona, but I think she was most definitely actuated as a slayer. I offered the point that she used the scythe because it was the putative "slayer's weapon" that both Faith and Buffy felt belonged to them. Using it is evidence (to me) that she was a slayer.

She was injured, though I don't recall it being at all connected to her use of the scythe (I have to go back and look). I thought her injury was probably not life-threatening, mostly because if it were that bad she wouldn't have made it back to the bus IMHO. I don't believe we have any evidence of whether her healing abilities had kicked in or not.

As always, your mileage may vary.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Agree to disagree? Back up a parsec. -- Zach, 06:52:59 10/08/04 Fri

I coulda used the scythe if someone put it in my hand. I'd probably accidently cut my own head off, but just cuz someone wields the scythe doesn't mean they were actuated. This isn't a matter of "mileage." I'm talking about what Whedon put on the screen. This isn't a subjective thing.

I was very fond of the character Rona. I would like to believe she survived the episode. I am not saying she failed to actuate because I had subjective problem with the character. Quite the contrary. I admired her passive aggressiveness towards Buffy because I happen to be passive aggressive towards authority figures and understand where the character was coming from, but what I saw in the last episode lended no evidence to Roni becoming a slayer.

VI: (to the wounded Rona) Look at me! This is nothing! Stay awake! This is nothing!

In the final moments of the finale, I remember distinctly Vi was coaching a wounded Rona, trying to keep her from giving up, but it didn't look like Rona was responding. Vi wasn't sounding very convincing, and Rona didn't look like she was paying much attention. She was a little too busy feeling the life ebbing out of her.

I'm trying not to invent stuff. Admittedly it's easy to let the mind wander and extrapolate, but I'm hoping we can focus on what we see in the last episodes of both series. Rona didn't look like she was going to make it, and it didn't look like she had the moves of a slayer or her healing abilities. That's what we see in "Chosen."

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Now, I can accept doubt as to whether Rona lived or not -- Finn Mac Cool, 09:23:11 10/08/04 Fri

Things we can't really know too much about (how much time it would take to get to a hospital, how high the Scoobies' first aid knowledge is, exactly how ad Rona's wound was) all factor heavily into whether she lived or not (although losing consciousness and dying aren't necessarily one and the same, keep in mind).

I would just like to point out, though, that having a possibly fatal injury doesn't mean Rona doesn't have Slayer endurance or healing. We've seen with both Faith and Buffy that Slayers can be injured enough with one stab or shot that they wouldn't survive without medical attention, and even then they're out of commission for a while. Rona suffered a similar wound. Also, it's important to note that she grabbed the Scythe, killed a few Turok-Han with it, then threw it a somewhat considerable distance over to Buffy. I don't see how this indicates her having sub-Slayer abilities.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Agree to disagree? Back up a parsec. -- nibblet, 00:53:07 10/09/04 Sat

Rona didn't look like she was going to make it, and it didn't look like she had the moves of a slayer or her healing abilities.

What I think is important to remember is that Rona had only just become a slayer. Remembering back to Becoming part whateveritwas, and the small flashback scene of Angel's where he sees Buffy take on a vamp for the first time, she didn't really look very slayer-like herself. She hadn't had any training before then, granted, but she had still been given the rudimentary slayer abilities.

Although the ex-Potentials had had a small amount of training over the last few months, it certainly wasn't a lot and it certainly wasn't as slayers, but rather as slightly-stronger-than-average girls. They put up an impressive fight at the end of Chosen (possibly partly due to adrenaline or the rush they seemed to have experienced being "chosen"), but my guess is that had it gone on for much longer they probably wouldn't have been able to keep up, so, as you say, Rona probably wouldn't have made it.

Thinking of the number of times that we've seen Buffy having to train, I think it's fair to say that slayer ability is not just something you're given, but something that you have to cultivate, that you have to train aswell. Otherwise all that extra training would be unnecessary, if you suddenly could just do everything Buffy now can after years of experience.

Perhaps physical ability and healing ability also go hand-in-hand in slayering, that they grow together.

Anyway, those are just a few thoughts I had.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> She didn't take damage while she had the Scythe -- Finn Mac Cool, 08:20:17 10/07/04 Thu

She caught it, killed a Turok-Han or two, then passed it to Buffy. Her wound didn't come until later. If simply being wounded makes her not qualify as a Slayer in your mind, what about the two Slayers we saw killed in the battle, or all the times Buffy has been critically injured?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Buffy got mortally wounded, and then she stood up. -- Zach, 06:57:08 10/08/04 Fri

In the same battle, Buffy fell. The First was gloating. Buffy got back up. Rona takes a shot in the gut and her intestines start falling out on the floor. That's the distinction.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> It's not like they got hit in exactly the same spot -- Finn Mac Cool, 09:16:31 10/08/04 Fri

In "Seeing Red", one tiny little bullet nearly killed Buffy, so clearly it is possible for a Slayer to suffer a near-mortal wound and be incapacitated for a while after it. So the question becomes how were they hit; did the Turok-Han who stabbed Rona hit any vital organs or other important spot, whereas the one that stabbed Buffy didn't? Saying Rona was never activated just because she was severely hurt seems pretty silly, considering that it's pretty well established that Slayers can be hurt pretty badly.

Also, what of the two Slayers we can be sure died? Were they never activated either, by your logic?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> We never see Rona receiving her wounds. -- BrianWilly, 13:41:54 10/08/04 Fri

For all we know, she could have been eviscerated and her intestines were falling out onto the floor.

Buffy got stabbed, once, in a clean thrust. Even so it was highly debated right here on this board how she could have gotten up and been dandy right after such an attack; it far exceeds what we know about Slayer healing. I don't think we can compare Buffy's wound to Rona's. And Buffy even got stabbed before Rona got wounded. If we're talking battle incompetence here, Buffy actually got a head start on Rona.

It just doesn't make sense that Rona would be there in the cave, punching and kicking and fighting Turok-han along with the rest of the girls and living more than a few moments if she wasn't a Slayer. Remember, these are the Ubervamps. A team of half a dozen trained yet unawakened Potenials were not able to even come close to harming three of them in "End of Days," and here we're talking thousands. If Rona wasn't a Slayer by the time of the final battle, how is it possible that she landed even one punch? And yes, she landed several: http://www.buffyworld.com/buffy/season7/vidcaps/chosen/chosen1273.php
http://www.buffyworld.com/buffy/season7/vidcaps/chosen/chosen1446.php
http://www.buffyworld.com/buffy/season7/vidcaps/chosen/chosen1448.php

I'm interested in your thoughts on Chao Ahn and Amanda as well; they've been brought up a few times in this discussion. We never see them pulling any fancy moves. They died. Were they not Slayers? Why or why not?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Rona, Chao Ahn, & Amanda -- Rich, 14:00:08 10/11/04 Mon

Buffy said (I think ), "Any girl who can be a Slayer, will be a Slayer". The spell was designed to "activate" *ALL* Potentials, everywhere. The choice was whether or not to accept the job that goes with the power, not the power itself.

My impression was that the choice was made back at the house, before they went to the school. Any girl who rejected it wouldn't have been in the Hellmouth - they would have been left behind, or assigned to help the Scoobies guard the exits. All the girls with Buffy were Slayers, they just didn't have the training or experience of Buffy & Faith.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Buffy got mortally wounded, and then she stood up. -- auroramama, 10:44:58 10/11/04 Mon

Why is the First's diagnosis credible? It wanted Buffy to think she had a mortal wound, certainly, but she didn't believe it, and in fact she was correct. The evidence that the wound was mortal is entirely in the First's snarky comment.

Evil is an unreliable narrator. Look what Riley got for believing Spike about what Buffy needed in a man. Whether it turned out to be true we'll never really know, because Buffy was still willing to try again when Riley left, though we may doubt it would have done any good. Spike fervently wanted it to be true; he also wanted to inflict pain on his rival; and if Riley believed him and gave up, even better. But Spike didn't know it to be true, or he wouldn't have admitted that no, in fact, he didn't think he had a chance with her. Riley believed Spike because of his own doubts about the relationship and his own insecurities. Buffy's doubts and insecurities are sufficient to cow her for, what, a couple of seconds, and then she gets up.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Buffy's survival -- Rich, 13:38:37 10/11/04 Mon

Rona was in her first fight as a Slayer, suffering her first major wound ( that we know of, at least ). The psychological shock might be as debilitating as the wound itself.

Buffy, OTH, has years of training & experience, has died twice, & been wounded or injured many times. She has a well-developed ability to "play with pain" - if anything, it seems to make her stronger. A wound that would incapacitate Rona would just piss Buffy off - which it did.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Buffy's survival -- auroramama, 08:38:29 10/12/04 Tue

I agree. And I like the way this suggests that the First was lying with the truth. It *was* a mortal wound -- just not for Buffy. Cute.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> You never said that. Nor did I say you said that. -- Sophist, 08:41:34 10/07/04 Thu

[> [> What about Nina? And, of course, Connor -- Cheryl, 21:54:18 10/04/04 Mon

I forget where Angel sent Nina and her family. And Connor would still be fighting the good fight where he can, I would think.

[> [> [> Re: What about Nina? And, of course, Connor -- Wizard, 23:27:21 10/04/04 Mon

I like to think that Connor is definitely doing the champion, and balancing it with college. Oh, and the pursuit of (much) older women. I guess we'll have to wait for AtS S6 to know for sure.

[> [> [> [> Re: What about Nina? And, of course, Connor -- Zach, 07:56:52 10/05/04 Tue

Last time we saw Connor, Angel told him to leave W&H and continue living, so even if Angel didn't survive the night, in a sense he'd live forever through his son. Everything beyond that is speculation. It's possible he's part of the cavalry that runs into the L.A. alley ten seconds after the cameras stopped rolling, so he shared Angel's fate whatever that might be. We don't know that, but even after his memory got played with, I don't see Connor turning away from an opportunity to bash heads. Provided he survived that, yeah I think Connor's living a rewrite of Buffy season four, with him in the lead role, at some California college. Angel would still be a distant but amicable part of his life. The further away Angel is the better, but Connor doesn't particularly hate him anymore.

I remember Angel telling Nina to leave the city, but I don't remember any specifics as to where she was to go. So her whereabouts are presently unknown.

[> [> [> [> [> Connor's attending Stanford University -- Vickie, 09:40:18 10/05/04 Tue

And keeping the SF Bay Area safe from the monsters!

[> [> [> [> [> [> If, like Angel, you assume -- KdS, 14:33:35 10/06/04 Wed

That W&H would leave Connor happy in his new life after the events of S5. Especially if they ever find out that he took part in the murder of Hamilton...

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: If, like Angel, you assume -- Wizard, 15:19:33 10/06/04 Wed

You have a point. Angel was being optimistic. He could be right- why would W&H go after Connor when they have much bigger problems to worry about? Still, it's entirely possible that in a few years, Connor could have some major problems, both natural and supernatural, all courtesy of W&H.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> That's assuming Angel and the gang don't utterly annihilate W&H -- BrianWilly, 19:23:40 10/08/04 Fri

You know, the two vampires, one egotistical ex-godking, and one ex-lawyer with a foot in death's door already, taking on the armies of doom and destroying every foundation of power that the Senior Partners have ever built.

It could happen.

Really.

....

....

Connor's screwed.

[> [> [> the tickets angel gave nina were for acapulco -- anom, 09:41:53 10/05/04 Tue

[> [> [> [> How close is Acapulco to Rio? -NT -- Zach, 13:51:47 10/05/04 Tue

[> [> [> [> [> what, i gotta read the map for you? ok... -- anom, 21:08:26 10/05/04 Tue

...Acapulco is in southern Mexico; Rio de Janeiro is in southwest Brazil. Nina's not likely to run into Willow & Kennedy, if that's your point.

[> [> [> [> [> [> it was a rhetorical question. -NT -- Zach, 21:18:15 10/05/04 Tue

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> so was mine--maybe we need a "rhetorical question" emoticon around here! -- anom, 09:29:02 10/11/04 Mon

[> [> Unless I'm completely off my game, -- BrianWilly, 11:23:39 10/06/04 Wed

Rona was SHOWN acquiring her powers along with the others in midst of Buffy's "make your choice" speech. There is no reason to believe that she isn't an awakened Slayer.

[> [> [> I'll have to check my videotapes again, but... -- Zach, 12:50:06 10/06/04 Wed

And this coulda been cuz the actress looked less capable than the others in terms of stage combat, but my impression was that Rona was not very confident like the other girls, and received her wound after they were activated. All season, Rona had been the one with the most negative attitude. I interpreted this to mean Joss was saying each girl had an unconscious choice to accept her Slayerness, and Rona's pessimism kept her from becoming a slayer, which is why she was dying of a gaping hole in her belly in the bus at the end with Vi screaming at her.

That's just my observation. I could be wrong.

[> [> [> [> Re: I'll have to check my videotapes again, but... -- q 3, 21:24:40 10/06/04 Wed

Then why did Amanda and Chao Anh die? Did Giles' scary pictures dissuade them from "choosing" to become slayers, too?

[> [> [> [> [> Re: I'll have to check my videotapes again, but... -- BrianWilly, 21:43:00 10/06/04 Wed

Exactly. The Slayer power doesn't work like that. Vi had been the most frightened girl in the whole army before she became a Slayer. She only started to kick ass after her powers came to her. If the Slayerness chose people based on how optimistic they were, Vi certainly wouldn't have been chosen, and many more Potentials besides.

Not to mention the Slayers who awoke all over the world...what would they have been "ready" for? They didn't even know about Slayers or what was happening.

Here's a link to a picture of Rona's powers awakening thanks to buffyworld.com: http://www.buffyworld.com/buffy/season7/vidcaps/chosen/chosen1236.php

[> [> [> [> [> [> Slayer Power didn't choose them.. -- ZachsMind, 21:08:16 10/07/04 Thu

Remember Buffy's speech before the big battle?

"So here s the part where you make a choice. What if you could have that power now? In every generation one Slayer is born because a bunch of men who died thousands of years ago made up that rule. They were powerful men. This woman is more powerful than all of them combined. So I say we change the rule. I say my power should be our power. Tomorrow, Willow will use the essence of the scythe to change our destiny. From now on, every girl in the world who might be a Slayer, will be a Slayer. Every girl who could have the power, will have the power. Can stand up, will stand up. Slayers every one of us. Make your choice. Are you ready to be strong?"

The bulk of this speech can be interpreted to mean B & W force the slayer power on the girls, but Buffy then adds this: "Make your choice. Are you ready to be strong?"

Buffy and Willow were allowing the slayers the option to choose. That's what this was all about. Rather than being chosen seemingly randomly by the three old guys like Buffy, Kendra and Faith had been chosen, Willow's spell through the scythe was inventing a loophole where all Potential Slayers could unconsciously make the choice themselves. This put the power and responsibility in their hands, rather than in the hands of those three old black dudes at the dawn of time, or in fate, or in The Primitive, or in God, or in whatever it is you think makes the Slayer Source function.

Rona may or may not have chosen to accept the power of the Slayer. That's left open to interpretation, but we can't assume all the girls automatically became slayers across the board. Some of them may have just not been ready for it. Rona may not have believed enough in herself to accept the gift.

Joss Whedon didn't have to show Vi fighting to keep Rona coherent and alive. He was saying something there. Otherwise the two girls would have been standing in the background behind Buffy in that final tableau. Same goes for Faith and Wood. Whedon was making a statement there. WHAT he was trying to say is difficult to decipher.

At the end of Whedon there were also two people who had major wounds. We were led to believe Wesley died from his in Illyria's arms, and Gunn was ten minutes away from death himself according to Illyria. Of course, maybe she's not good at determining death pronouncements. Perhaps she was premature in both cases. She's surely no doctor. Just a fallen god. She's not qualified. Neither are Faith & Vi. Perhaps Rona wasn't really dying and Vi was overreacting. Wood seemed in good spirits despite his pain and Faith didn't seem overly concerned that he was in impending doom. I see something curious about how in both series finales there were two supporting characters who may or may not be dying, and their fate is left so open to our interpretation. What's Whedon trying to say there?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Read the speech again. -- BrianWilly, 01:45:35 10/08/04 Fri

"Every girl who could have the power, will have the power. Can stand up, will stand up."

The emphases wasn't even added by me; Buffy said it that way in the episode. It doesn't leave a lot of room for interpretation...every girl who has the Potential to become a Slayer will actually become one. In my opinion, when Buffy says to "make your choice" to be strong, she wasn't referring to the Slayer power...she was referring to personal empowerment, personal conviction. There's going to be a battle, and she's asking the Potentials to be strong for it, to choose strength as opposed to doubt. And metaphorically Buffy was telling every viewer of the show that anyone could have the power, and that all one has to do is to make the choice to be powerful.

I don't see how your theory applies to the Potentials outside of Sunnydale who weren't a part of the battle, never met Buffy, never knew what a Slayer was, didn't hear the speech, didn't know what was going on, and yet still became Slayers. The idea that these girls' subconsciousness would decide whether or not they were ready for the power...not only is that a pretty substantial stretch, it also refutes the whole idea of having a choice at all in the first place. Your subconscious is, by its very nature, not subject to your free will. Subconsciously deciding to do something is a very far cry from consciously making a decision for yourself. None of the Potentials outside of Sunnydale had the capacity to consciously decide to become a Slayer. If Willow's spell was meant to give people a choice, telling their subconscious to decide for them was probably not the smartest way to go about it.

I saw Vi fighting to keep Rona alive as Joss showing how much Vi's confidence and personal power soared after truly becoming a Slayer. Before, Vi had always been the wallflower, the mouse, and the one who freaked out in a crisis. Now here she is, kicking more a$$ than anyone, and fighting to keep her friend alive with more conviction than she had ever displayed. To me the scene also adds to the level of tension and urgency as the gang sped away from a growing crater in a schoolbus. Of course they would be dressing wounds and treating the casualties at that point.

I don't know for sure about Rona's future, but I'm pretty certain that Wood made it through. Faith herself says "it's not bad." Why would Joss go through the trouble of setting up Wood's surprise of not being dead when it seemed like he was dead...only to have him die anyway? I don't see that being how Joss's M.O. at all; If he meant for Wood to die we'd be pretty dang sure that Wood's bound for croakage. I saw Wood's fake death as Joss' way to show that Faith really had come care to for him and really would miss him terribly if he were gone; the look on her face during the scene says it all. It was an important step for Faith's character; if she is to someday earn redemption then she has to learn to respect others just as she has to learn to respect herself, and Faith had never really respected any (living) man before Wood.

"I see something curious about how in both series finales there were two supporting characters who may or may not be dying, and their fate is left so open to our interpretation. What's Whedon trying to say there?"

Gunn and Wesley were hardly supporting characters in the sense that Rona and Wood were. And the Angel series finale ended very differently than Buffy's: EVERYTHING was left open to interpretation.

Well...except for Wesley's death, imo. I'm not sure where exactly people are getting the idea that Wesley somehow survives Vail's torture and shishkabobbing. Illyria's not a doctor, but she's not stupid either...she was able to tell, at a glance, human bodily changes and functions as subtle as Connor getting the hots for her. Neither does she make blanket statements...if Illyria says that someone's going to die in a few minutes, she believes that someone's going to die in a few minutes.

Not to mention that if Wes' death was meant to be another episode of Punk'd, the whole emotion behind the idea of Illyria appearing to him as Fred in his final moments is rendered moot, which is also not Joss's M.O.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Empowerment.. -- ZachsMind, 07:13:18 10/08/04 Fri

If this were the case, how is Buffy & Willow forcing the power of the Slayer on all the little girls of the world any better than the three old black guys forcing it on one girl at a time? In fact this is technically worse. Buffy & Willow are thrusting power on girls without their choice? That throws away the entire point of empowerment: giving the potential slayer the CHOICE. Buffy was Chosen against her will. She didn't want to do that to the other girls. She gave them the choice.

I think we need to find Joss Whedon and ask him to explain the final moments of "Chosen" so once and for all we know from the horse's mouth whether or not Rona got actuated and whether or not she survived the episode. So if you reading this can get in touch with Joss Whedon, tell him I want to talk to him. Tell him Zach is expecting his call. Have his people contact my people. We'll do lunch.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Why do you consider having the Slayer power a bad thing? -- BrianWilly, 13:25:39 10/08/04 Fri

The only reason Buffy ever considered being a Slayer a curse was because she had to do it alone. She was the only one who could save the world and the burden was on her to do it. She had, essentially, no choice, and being the only Slayer cut her off, made her detached.

Now, there are many Slayers. Not only is the burden of saving the world from darkness that no one should have to face spread equally amongst hundreds, there also is the fact that not every awakened Slayer needs to be out there slaying vampires. There are enough Slayers now that even a tiny fraction of them would be enough to hold back the forces of darkness, considering that only one had been doing it for hundreds of years.

The reason that the Shadowmen's transformation of the First Slayer was considered a violation, the reason that every Slayer was a violation, was because they were forced to face evil alone without any say in the matter. That is not what is happening to the new awakened Slayers. They are not alone, nor would any of the Scoobies forcing them into their fight. Buffy didn't curse them, she gifted them to fulfill their potential. No, they didn't have a choice in becoming superpowerful and fast and athletic and quasi-clairvoyant, but there's nothing wrong with being superpowerful and fast and athletic and quasi-clairvoyant at all.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Why do you consider having the Slayer power a bad thing? -- stoploss, 12:04:56 10/09/04 Sat

The only reason Buffy ever considered being a Slayer a curse was because she had to do it alone. She was the only one who could save the world and the burden was on her to do it. She had, essentially, no choice, and being the only Slayer cut her off, made her detached.

I don't see it that way. The repeated theme was normalcy. Multiple Slayers would not make Buffy, nor the multiples, normal nor give her or them the same carefree life as other teens or young people.

The brief appearance of the Slayers on Angel showed they were no more normal than Buffy had been. And Buffy was not isolated except by virtue of her extraordinary power. That power remained unchanged.

She had the Scoobies. What separated her from them and burdened her was the power of Slayerhood. With power comes responsibility. It is not clear that that was in any way dissipated by the relatively small numbers of additional Slayers added to the pool.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> In "Damage," Wesley revealed that -- BrianWilly, 17:35:51 10/09/04 Sat

there were "hundreds...maybe thousands [of Potential Slayers] per generation." Even if the First had been going around offing them over the months, that's hardly a "relatively small number."

Much notice should be given to Buffy's dialogues with Faith in the last few episodes.

FAITH
"OK. The point. Me, by myself all the time. I'm looking at you, everything you have, and, I don't know, jealous. Then there I am. Everybody's looking to me, trusting me to lead them, and I've never felt so alone in my entire life."

BUFFY
"Yeah."

FAITH
"And that's you every day, isn't it?"

BUFFY
"I love my friends. I'm very grateful for them. But that's the price. Being a slayer."

...

"I mean, I... I guess everyone's alone. But being a slayer? There's a burden we can't share."

And how can you possibly share that kind of pressure, that kind of burden with your friends? You can say that "Well, we can save the world together!" but it's still not their responsibility. Your friends are still just "The ones who help the Chosen One," not "The Chosen One" themselves. They can imagine the pressure and pain that you experience, they can bear witness to it, and they can even help alleviate or lessen it, but the one thing they cannot do is to experience this for themselves.

And what's the one thing that can change this? Simple: There could be more Slayers. That's it. Problem solved. Now Buffy isn't the one with the burden...she's the one sharing the burden with hundreds of others. She's not normal, but then, normalcy is completely overrated as the show keeps reminding us. Eight years as the Vampire Slayer, with all the perks and advantages of the job("Thank God we're hot chicks with superpowers."), it's actually gotten to the point where Buffy wouldn't know how to live or function if she wasn't a Slayer(witness the third season episode "Helpless"). She doesn't hate the power, and she doesn't hate saving people, what she hates is bearing the sole responsibility and how it cuts her off from life in general. With more Slayers, she no longer has the sole responsibility, and is no longer obligated to cut herself off. Again, problem solved. It doesn't mean that she has no more responsibility; it means that she shares them. Doing good is something Buffy truly believes in, something that's been a part of her for a while now, and it's not something she can easily ignore. The difference now is that she has the choice.

I'll make a confession: I, too, had thought before Season 7 started that the fact that Buffy has her friends and family with her all the time made up for all the loneliness that being a Slayer usually entails. There's no doubt that Buffy has been such a successful Slayer because she didn't do it alone. In fact, my first reaction to all the Season 7 nuances about being detached and alone was that it all seemed pretty contradictory to the messages of previous seasons and even negated them somewhat, the messages being "companionship is good and will help you through life."

But then I remember "Conversations With Dead People," and it all makes a little more sense. Yes, Buffy would have lost it years ago if not for her friends. But that can only go so far. They are aids, not solutions to her problem.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Did Wesley know about the First's plan, though -- Finn Mac Cool, 23:29:26 10/09/04 Sat

He said there were hundreds, possibly thousands, of potentials in the world, but given that he didn't know about things like Sunnydale being sunk or Slayers being activated, he might not have known about the First's world wide potential-assassination scheme. And, even if he did, he certainly wouldn't have any way to tell how many were dead and how many were alive, at least not after the Watchers Council's destruction in "Never Leave Me".

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Did Wesley know about the First's plan, though -- BrianWilly, 00:19:23 10/11/04 Mon

Willow said at the end of Chosen that "I can feel them, Buffy. All over...Slayers are awakening everywhere." and I just don't get the impression from this that she's talking about three or four individuals scattered in remote corners of the globe. Case in point: the Slayers who appeared in "Damage" were all completely new Slayers, none of whom we've seen during Season 7. There might not be the thousands or even hundreds that there were, but my impression is that there's still a hefty amount. Even three or four dozen Slayers are relatively tons more than the one or two that has always existed.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> They all got chosen -- shambleau, 13:28:09 10/08/04 Fri

I'm with Brian on this one. It seemed obvious to me that all Potentials (not all the little girls of the world) were now Slayers. What was different from the way the shamans did it was that these girls had the choice not to act on their gift. They didn't have to train under a patriarchically devised system which isolated them and used them until they died. They could reject the whole thing and have kids or go into business. They could go to art school and dabble in slaying on the side, or be a Slayer for a few years and then move on. They could devote their whole lives to the Slayer sisterhood. Whatever. And that whatever makes all the difference.

As Potentials, they were all already imbued with Slayerness. The shamans had arranged things magically to make sure that there was never more than one activated at one time. So Buffy wasn't forcing something on them that wasn't already in them, she was liberating it from the control of others. Whether a brave new world in its ironic or non-ironic sense was born from that is left to our imaginations in BTVS, but Dana's (I think that's the crazy Slayer's name, right?) story on Angel shows they were clear-eyed about the possible ramifications.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Whoops. Brian beat me to it and said it better. -- shambleau, 13:35:18 10/08/04 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Never hurts to have backup;) -- BrianWilly, 13:45:57 10/08/04 Fri

[> [> [> [> Re: I'll have to check my videotapes again, but... -- BrianWilly, 21:53:33 10/06/04 Wed

Rona didn't like Buffy very much, and neither did a lot of the Potentials, but that doesn't mean they didn't want to become Slayers. I feel that Rona was pessimistic about the situation that she was in and how it was being handled by those who were supposed to protect her, not about her destiny. For someone who had no idea what a Slayer was before that year, she was actually pretty forthcoming about it all; by the end of "Potential," Rona seemed to have become pretty psyched about the whole deal, joking and enthusing along with the others following a good slay.

Having a shiny happy personality as opposed to a cynical and edgy one isn't a prerequisite for being a Slayer...after all, look at Kendra;).

[> Re: When Last We Left Our Heroes... -- ScottS, 08:30:14 10/05/04 Tue

You should mention Cordelia, even though we are 99% sure she is dead and no longer a factor.

[> [> Death Was Her Gift... -- Zach, 12:30:33 10/05/04 Tue

Agreed Scott. We have to include Cordy. In "You're Welcome" we're led to believe at the end that some of this was going on in Angel's head. However, it's also plausible that everything happened, since the PTB 'owed her a favor' and after Lindsey got dealt with, some things were reverted as pleased the PTB. Only Angel seems to recall specifics. The others didn't seem to remember. Does anyone remember differently?

As with Phoenix in the X-Men, or anyone in television pretty much, Cordy's only mostly dead.

Her body was last with Wolfram & Hart and we were led to believe their doctors pronounced her dead, but we never actually saw them dispose of the body. So either they did bury/burn/whatever her body and it's gone gone, or they presently have it in a deep freeze and there's guys still working on it. Maybe her body was shipped to the W&H Rome office.

Her soul had apparently traversed over. So either she's gone wherever Joyce went and is living it up in the afterlife, or she's transcended into some kind of pan dimensional demoness-at-large. Considering her personality, she could be vying for position with the Powers That Be. That'd be cool.

Anyway. Thank you, Charisma Carpenter wherever you are. It was a kind and appreciated gift to all of us fans. Cordy's death was Carpenter's gift. I love the symmetry to that.

[> [> [> maybe she will replace an oracle -- skeeve, 08:27:33 10/15/04 Fri

[> [> In the Buffyverse, death is often a temporary problem -- Rich, 18:18:37 10/06/04 Wed

Show Recomendation: "Lost" on ABC -- Corwin of Amber, 09:09:27 10/05/04 Tue

I watched the two-hour repeat of the premiere of Lost. I have to say it's caught my interest, and I've realized I'd like it to continue.

This relates to the Whedonverse, in that David Fury is one of the writers for the show, along with J.J. Abrams of Alias fame.

So please everyone, give Lost a few eyeballs. 8 pm Wednesday night on ABC.

Replies:

[> Absolutely, excellent show. -- Rob, 10:38:20 10/05/04 Tue

It is getting great ratings, too, which never happens for shows I like!

Rob

[> Re: Show Recomendation: "Lost" on ABC -- Evan, 13:10:53 10/05/04 Tue

Yeah, I'm pretty excited about this series. I liked the first two episodes and I think the characters have a lot of potential.

[> Re: Show Recomendation: "Lost" on ABC -- Wizard, 13:20:43 10/05/04 Tue

Yes, see this show! It is the best non-Joss television that I have seen in a very long time.

Plus, it has Daniel Dae Kim, and it is our duty to support all former ME people, actors and writers alike.

[> [> So did you see "First Daughter", "Scooby Doo 2" and "Euro Trip"? ;) -- Evan, 13:45:52 10/05/04 Tue

[> [> [> Don't knock "Eurotrip." That was actually a very fun movie. -- Rob, 14:22:31 10/05/04 Tue

[> [> [> Well... -- Wizard, 20:09:05 10/05/04 Tue

I haven't seen EuroTrip, or First Daughter, but I did go see Scooby-Doo in theatres. Both movies.

I've also seen Psycho Beach Party (Nicholas Brendan) and Valentine (David Boreanaz). Valentine was okay, but Psycho Beach Party is hilarious.

[> [> Re: Show Recomendation: "Lost" on ABC -- Cheryl, 19:29:12 10/05/04 Tue

Plus, it has Daniel Dae Kim, and it is our duty to support all former ME people, actors and writers alike.

Here, here! But I hope he has more lines (and in English) coming up. I love how all of the characters are surrounded by mystery. One of my new favorite shows, along with Desperate Housewives, Clubhouse, and Veronica Mars. Guess I won't cancel my cable after all.

And, yes, (to Evan's post), I saw Scooby Doo 2 and First Daughter (which I thought was very sweet) and plan to see Taxi (Christian Kane) this weekend. Also have seen the following (some good, some bad) only because someone from Buffy or Angel was in it:

Summer Catch (egads! I first rented it when I found out Marc Blucas was in it and then had to rent it AGAIN after I 'discovered' Christian Kane. Sheesh!)

The Haunted Mansion (Thankfully, Marsters was only in the beginning and it was on tv so I didn't have to suffer through all of it)

I Capture the Castle (only saw it because of Blucas and fell in love with it and then the book - one of my favorites).

Second Hand Lions (never mind that Michael Caine and Robert Duvall were in it - I wasn't interested until I heard CK was in it - and he only has 1 line - but plenty of action! And it also became one of my all-time favorites because of the story and the characters).

Life or Something Like It and Just Married (Neither that great, but CK was in them so . . . are we seeing a pattern here? )

Plenty of other movies and tv shows that I wouldn't have watched otherwise if it weren't for the ME draw. However, I have no interest in seeing The Grudge. I try to follow and support as many ME alums as possible, as long as the story has some sort of interest for me. But, the Grudge is not my type of movie at all.

[> I'm gonna recommend this too... -- Seven, 05:42:29 10/06/04 Wed

My friends and I caught this last week and we were very intrigued. I taped the two hour repeat and was very surprised. Let me lay this down for you non-believers:

The show asks some interesting quesions: Are you shaped by your surroundings? Would you be the same person if you were in different circumstances? Would you lie in this situaition? If you were a criminal in the real world and a hero on the island, which person is the real you?

The good and the bad:

The show has about 30 people walking around this island. There is about 12 - 15 "main" characters with about 5 being highlighted so far. Now this is a good and a bad in my opinion. It's good because it's smart and COULD lead to better television. It's bad because it's sort of a cookie-cutter way to create something good if you don't have the ingenuity or talent to do it without this. Let me explain.

With so many characters, there are bound to be very interesting characters and fan favorites and there are bound to be really boring, non-essential, 1 dimensional characters. The way this show is set up however, allows the writers to see the results, find out which characters are worth developing and then have the excess to be able to kill off meaningless characters and at the same time add drama to the rest of the show. It's win-win.

Also, the thing in the woods is intersting, but I'm willing to bet that they 1. won't reveal what it is for a while and 2. once they reveal it, it will suck and I won't watch the show anymore.

But in the meantime, very ,very interesting and I recommend it wholehearted...whole-hearted....wholeheartedly......a lot.

set your vcrs! abc at 8! tonight!

7

[> [> Re: I'm gonna recommend this too... -- Rob, 07:22:03 10/06/04 Wed

Also, the thing in the woods is intersting, but I'm willing to bet that they 1. won't reveal what it is for a while and 2. once they reveal it, it will suck and I won't watch the show anymore.

From what I've read, they're not going to reveal that for a long, long time, and it's not going to play much of a part in the series as a whole.

Rob

[> [> [> Re: I'm gonna recommend this too... -- Wizard, 15:15:22 10/06/04 Wed

Really? Good. There's no way that the reality live up to the expectation. I'd be just as happy if they only gave vague hints, and threw some lesser monsters at us. Why should Sawyer be the only castaway to kick some bear ass?

[> [> [> [> Re: I'm gonna recommend this too... -- Brian, 16:30:12 10/10/04 Sun

I think there are lots of "things" lurking in the dark.

Since I'm still a big Smallville fan(which is having a great season), I tape the show and watch it on Sat night.

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