October 2003 posts
Me
in the City - the San Francisco meet -- Caroline, 21:45:00
10/18/03 Sat
I just want to take the opportunity to thank all the San Francisco
people who came out today to have lunch this afternoon. The food
was good, the berrytinis were yummy and the company was delightful.
There was heated discussion of Angel, fuelled on my part by vodka,
and I have to thank Joss for continuing to make shows that us
freaky people can get together and discuss. I'm continuing my
travels on Monday (inland to Yosemite, Sequoia, then to LA, Arizona,
New Mexico etc) so my internet access will be spotty - the only
bad thing about travelling is missing the action on this board!
Replies:
[> Great seeing you again Caroline! -- Masq, 06:45:42
10/19/03 Sun
Have fun in all those beautiful places you'll be going to next!
[> nice to meet you! -- Miyu tVP, 10:06:56 10/20/03
Mon
Caroline - It was fab meeting you! Hope you have a wonderful time
on all your travels. Masq, fresne & buffyboy - good to see you
again. Also nice to meet Karen. Jennifer, if you're lurking -
welcome to the board!
berrytinis! tequinis! mojitos! yum, yum, yum.
I had a great time and hope we do it again soon.
Whenever I get my film developed (embarrassingly low-tech) I will
scan & email the pic.
[> Re: Me in the City - the San Francisco meet -- Dochawk, 16:30:54
10/20/03 Mon
Caroline
If your coming to LA give me a holler. Email is above.
DH
Spike: Going for the Girls
-- LeeAnn, 05:50:40 10/19/03 Sun
Spike: Going for the Girls
On TWOP there's been some bitching about Spike going to Fred for
help in "Unleashed" instead of going to Wes but that
seems perfectly normal to me. Normal for Spike.
I think Spike appeals to Fred for help because of his fixation
on women. Cause Spike always goes for the girls. For love. To
fight. For help. It's like for Spike only women matter. His mother.
Cicely. Dru. Buffy. Even Harmony. And now Fred. For Spike males
are only something to fight. There's no friendship there, no camaraderie.
They are just impediments or opponents to him. I think only women
are human to him. Not men. So when he needs help he goes to a
woman. Fred. Not Wes even though Wes is the expert and he doesn't
have any negative history with him. Alive or dead I don't think
Spike ever had a male friend. Liam at least had drinking buddies.
Spike didn't. He didn't have father or brother or even male friend
that we have ever been shown. I don't think he even likes men.
Of course he goes to Fred. Anything else would be out of character
for him. Cause when has any man ever helped Spike or cared for
him or taken his part. Never.
I think for Angel women exist less than for Spike. Except for
Darla and Buffy women are/were just victims to him. To feed on
or to rescue. Even Dru was just a victim, the ultimate victim
who could be victimized again and again forever. And now Angel
can't feed on or have sex with a woman. All they can be to him
is someone to rescue. That is as close as he can come to them.
I don't see him even having much closeness with Fred. But alive
and dead Angel had male friends. His drinking buddies and fellow
wastrels when he was alive. Penn, at least, when he was dead and
unsouled. And later Doyle. (I haven't watched all of AtS so I'm
not gonna judge his relationship with Cordie yet but from what
I have watched so far I think it was superficial. But I might
think that because of DB's inability to act and show me Angel
felt something for Cordelia.)
I think Angel acts out and symbolizes the old patriarchal attitudes
toward women. For him women exist to be used (Dru and Fred) and
to be mated with (Darla and Buffy) and all other women exist only
to be rescued and therefore are more needy and less worthy than
men. Spike's attitudes are feminist. For him women are equals
to be partnered with, to be fought and to love.
Replies:
[> Re: Spike: Going for the Girls -- Dlgood, 08:17:10
10/19/03 Sun
I think Angel acts out and symbolizes the old patriarchal attitudes
toward women. For him women exist to be used (Dru and Fred) and
to be mated with (Darla and Buffy) and all other women exist only
to be rescued and therefore are more needy and less worthy than
men. Spike's attitudes are feminist. For him women are equals
to be partnered with, to be fought and to love.
------------------------------------
Close, but I do disagree.
Angel had another type of relationship. Liam had a little sister
(Kathy) that he seemed to have loved and loved him. One could
read several of his relationships in this manner. Cordelia, Faith,
Fred... For example, Angel isn't merely "rescuing" Faith
- he's mentoring her and learning about himself from her as well.
In scenes in "Consequence", "Sanctuary" and
AtS-4, this is very much a fraternal relationship. It's one in
which Angel seems to treat her with a lot of respect, as someone
who is much like him and as "worthy" as he is.
Indeed, one notable aspect of Angel's work to rescue women, is
the way he very (often correctly) sees these women as quite a
bit like him. People trying to better their own lives, but not
knowing how. His efforts to rescue others are quite frequently
seen as parallel attempts to save himself, and he can do that
because he sees women as people. Compare this to Spike, who while
going through similar personal issues as Willow and Anya in S7,
shows almost no interest in partnering or working with either
of them.
For me, the more interesting question is Angel's lesser willingness
to help like Lindsey or Spike. Perhaps, he doesn't respect men
or see men as capable of improving themselves.
Spike, in large part, tends to objectify his women. Harmony, for
example, was someone Spike saw as someone who existed for him
to use and discard whenever convenient - whereas his mother, Cecily,
Dru, and Buffy existed to be worshipped. In each case, William/Spike
is frequently shown as assuming they want what he wants them to
want, and fairly oblivious to their actual wants, needs, and aspirations.
He's got something of a Victorian Madonna/Whore complex.
In general, Spike shows attention and respect toward women that
he doesn't show toward men, but he still rarely sees other people
as people. His relationships are almost entirely defined as master/servant
rather than as one of equals. And in his close relationships,
Spike's devotion has heavily overridden bonds of friendship.
Angel has had close relationships with both men and women, and
while he evinces some "patriarchal" attitudes, IMHO,
this is more because of paternalism in general (his treatment
of Wes, Gunn and Lorne is as "paternal" as his treament
of Cordy & Fred) and his "Daddy" issues, rather than
his attitudes toward gender.
[> [> Insightful post about Angel -- Rahael, 08:31:45
10/19/03 Sun
And there was also Kate, who was so harshly rejected by her father
(an intensley painful moment in Sense and Sensitivity that I always
have to FF through), Angel standing and listening from afar. And
there was Bethany, who had terrible father issues.
Angel's real issues seem to revolve from the first inside the
small family unit. And this is beautifully reflected in AI as
a whole, the sometimes dysfunctional family unit, with it's sometimes
monstrous, sometimes heroic head. Or is he. All these dynamics
go in and out through the season. It's perhaps why Connor was
such a wonderful addition - he really brought out the very best/worst,
dramatically resonant out of Angel. The logical culmination of
so much that had gone before.
[> [> [> Re: Insightful post about Angel -- Dlgood,
08:48:03 10/19/03 Sun
It's also notable that Angel isn't simply looking to "resuce"
people. He's really looking to help them rescue themselves.
[> [> [> [> What about Angel mentoring Spike?
-- Tapioca, 20:00:08 10/19/03 Sun
I agree with your points LeeAnn, regarding Spike and how he goes
to women for help and for companionship. However, a poster on
another board mentioned the fact that when Spike and Angel meet
again in "Schoolhard" that they embrace as if they were
old friends. I had completely forgotten that moment until it was
mentioned, and it does suggest that Spike and Angel did have some
sort of comraderie/mentoring mutually beneficial relationship
before the troubles with Drusilla and Buffy. I'm not sure if the
discord that we see between them in FFL is contradictory to this
or not. What do you think?
[> [> [> [> [> Re: What about Angel mentoring
Spike? -- Malandanza, 21:07:11 10/19/03 Sun
"However, a poster on another board mentioned the fact
that when Spike and Angel meet again in 'Schoolhard' that they
embrace as if they were old friends. I had completely forgotten
that moment until it was mentioned, and it does suggest that Spike
and Angel did have some sort of comraderie/mentoring mutually
beneficial relationship before the troubles with Drusilla and
Buffy. I'm not sure if the discord that we see between them in
FFL is contradictory to this or not."
The Schoolhard bonding might have been a ruse for both
vampires, but in Innocence, Spike is genuinely happy to
see Angelus -- right up until Angelus starts hitting on Spike's
girlfriend. I don't see the rapport as contradictory at all, however
-- I think Spike made it clear that Angelus was his role model
(his "Yoda") and, whether Angelus realized it or not,
Angelus was a big influence on Spike. Spike might easily imagine
Angelus to be his mentor without Angelus being aware of his influence.
The old gang was Angelus and Darla -- they were in charge, they
were invincible, daring, romantic, mythic. Dru and Spike along
for the ride, but not the power in the gang. I think envisioned
the gang back together, thinking nostalgically of the old days,
and imagined that in the new gang, he would be Darla -- this time
it would be Spike and Angel, comrades in arms, fighting with fist
and fang against the world! And winning every time. Together,
they would bring Sunnydale (and the Slayer) to its knees. Which,
I think, is consistent with the FFL self-delusional Spike.
I think it came as quite the surprise to him to discover Angelus
didn't share the fantasy.
For his part, Angelus stepped back into his old role in the gang,
relegating Spike to comparative insignificance. Spike was the
vampire Angelus used to push around with impunity -- he didn't
stop to think that maybe things had changed. Spike had been around,
mostly just with Dru, for close to a century (and had killed two
slayers) -- without Darla and Angelus to save him from his own
stupidity -- and he had lived. He's not the same old Spike Angelus
knew back in the day -- while the new Spike might not be willing
to stand up to Angelus face to face, after playing at being Angelus
for a century he wasn't willing to become William the Bloody Awful
Vampire again.
Basically, I think the camaraderie existed solely in Spike's fanciful
expectations -- he saw himself as the former student, now a peer,
of his old master. And I imagine he cried himself to sleep the
night he finally realized he was wrong.
As for LeeAnn's statement that Spike's attitudes being feminist,
I'd point out that a vampire who defines himself by his ability
to kill the strongest women he can find hardly qualifies.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: What about Angel mentoring
Spike? -- Rufus, 00:35:27 10/20/03 Mon
I'd point out that a vampire who defines himself by his ability
to kill the strongest women he can find hardly qualifies.
Buffy is hardly the strongest "woman" she is the Slayer
and even Angel has mentioned she is physically stronger than he
is.....
S1 Angel "Sanctuary"
Buffy: "You hit me."
Angel: "Not to go all schoolyard on you, but you hit me first.
In case you've forgotten - you're a little bit stronger than
I am."
When it comes to gender, the Slayer doesn't get a pass because
she is a female, she fights just like any hero would. Spike saw
Slayers as an equal or better opponent, not women at all. So much
for him being a feminist. For him it isn't gender, it's who wins
or loses and if it will get him glory. I think it's poetic justice
that it's a Slayer that causes him to go seek his soul.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> I love that the board
is using the word Mentoring -- Ann, 08:47:32 10/20/03 Mon
I love that the board is using the word mentoring.
From Google:
Mentoring - Mentoring is an educational process where the mentor
serves as a role model, trusted counselor or teacher who provides
opportunities for professional development, growth and support
to less experienced individuals in career planning or employment
settings. Individuals receive information, encouragement and advice
as they plan their careers.
I have just started a student-mentoring program for my graduate
students and have learned that with mentoring, studies have shown,
the person being mentored has a better outcome in graduate school,
enjoys it more, has higher grades, completes their work more quickly,
gets a more prestigious post-doctoral and or faculty position
and is better funded. See "Mentoring within a Graduate School
setting" from College Student Journal.
Looking at Spike being mentored by Angel/us is interesting and
(take away the science/graduate study reference) I think this
description above fits well with their relationship in a twisted
sort of vampire way. He certainly enjoys what he learned from
Angel/us, is considered one of the fiercest vampires, long lived
and he prestigiously has killed two slayers. I believe we can
describe Spike (at least in his own mind) as having been mentored
by Angel/Angelus given the above definition. The relegating and
disinterest that Angelus shows to Spike also was part of Spike's
education. He did learn from the best.
I also think it will be interesting how this "mentoring relationship"
will continue this season on AtS. I think they have much to learn
from each other as described so well in other posts on this board.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Slayers as sexless
creatures -- Malandanza, 09:45:15 10/20/03 Mon
"When it comes to gender, the Slayer doesn't get a pass
because she is a female, she fights just like any hero would.
Spike saw Slayers as an equal or better opponent, not women at
all. So much for him being a feminist. For him it isn't gender,
it's who wins or loses and if it will get him glory. I think it's
poetic justice that it's a Slayer that causes him to go seek his
soul."
I have a few problems with your assertions, but first let me say
that I think it is odd to say that Spike is all about women --
everything he does is for then or because of them -- except when
he kills them. Suddenly they become sexless beings and Spike is
just a good ol' boy looking for a rasslin' match to break up a
boring Saturday evening.
Except that Spike definitely saw slayers as women. When he kills
the Chinese slayer, he tells Dru that Slayer's blood is an aphrodisiac
and there was a strong implication that they had some form of
sexual contact right there in the temple, by the still warm body
of the fallen slayer. When Spike recounts killing Nikki to Buffy
he does so with all that dance metaphor and gets sexually excited
just telling Buffy about it. After having sex with Buffy, he crows
that sex with a slayer is "the only thing better than killing
a slayer."
I think that gender is the integral part of why winning and losing
is lo important to him when he fights slayers. In life he was
emasculated by women; in death he tries to prove his manhood by
dominating them. If he were only about challenging fights, we
would never have seen him shy away from battles with powerful
males -- like Olaf the Troll in Triangle or Angelus from
the flashbacks and Season Two. He could have been killing demons
all along -- they're easier to find than slayers and much more
of a challenge than humans. Given Angelus had a celebrity status
among demons even 100 years after he stopped terrorizing Europe,
I think Spike would have gained incredible notoriety had he been
able to kill Angelus, more glory than just killing a couple of
slayers -- every slayer dies, and there's usually a vampire around
who had himself that one good day. He fights slayers because they
are women, not in spite of it. He's just Caleb with a better coat
and haircut.
As for it being poetic justice that Spike got a soul for a slayer,
I don't see it. Not much of any kind of justice in Spike's case.
As Angel said, three weeks in a basement is hardly fair recompense
for a century of evil. And then he spent the next few months being
mothered and protected by the very woman he tried to destroy in
the previous season. Now if Wood, the son of a slayer, had staked
Spike, that would have been closer to poetic justice.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Became Interested
-- Claudia, 11:17:42 10/20/03 Mon
As "Fool For Love" has shown, Spike had first expressed
interest in Slayers, the moment Angelus had remarked upon them:
ANGELUS: You can't keep this up forever. If I can't teach you,
maybe someday an angry crowd will. That... or the Slayer.
(Spike sits up, suddenly interested.)
SPIKE: What's a Slayer?
I suspect that if Slayers had been male, instead of females, Spike
would have still gone after them. I think he saw Slayers as a
challenge and the opportunity to make his reputation as a Big
Bad - regardless of their gender.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Slayers
as sexless creatures -- Rufus, 15:17:06 10/20/03 Mon
I think it is odd to say that Spike is all about women
Mal, exactly where did I say that Spike is all about women? I
made a point about Slayers being more like super-heroes in the
strength department. Spike kills Slayers as a perverse and deadly
form of counting coup.
Spike displays his prowess in the form of that jacket of Nikki's.
If the Slayer had been a man, Spike would have chased him as relentlessly
as he did any female slayer. In the killing of Slayers, Spike
gains the attention he has never gotten as a mortal man, and gets
to prove he is the baddest bad to the other vampires. The Slayer
isn't a woman to him she is a means to an end and that end is
admiration (vampires) or fear (vampires and humans).
I think Spike would have gained incredible notoriety had he
been able to kill Angelus, more glory than just killing a couple
of slayers
Angelus is Spikes grand sire (the sire of my sire is my sire)
and part of what Spike does is to prove to Angelus that he is
the vampire with the biggest wrinklies. Which brings this back
to Angel. The family is a strong component of the series. Angel
killed his father when he became a vampire so he could win a contest,
the murders of his sister and mother less important to him. Angel
eventually gets a son of his own and the conflict with the father
takes a new form. With Connor gone we have the recurrence of the
father conflict with Spike on the scene. Angel as Spikes sire,
yoda, made him what he is. I don't think Angelus could have resisted
teaching Spike everything he knows. I think the killing of Slayers
came out of the competition the son (Spike) feels with the father
figure (Angel/Angelus).
As Angel said, three weeks in a basement is hardly fair recompense
for a century of evil.
So how long? How long should Spike have dribbled on his sleeve,
stunk up a basement, before he got into the fighting for the world?
We don't know the inner workings of Spikes mind any more than
we know Angels mind. People react to situations differently and
Spike isn't Angel.
Now if Wood, the son of a slayer, had staked Spike, that would
have been closer to poetic justice.
So, if Holtz had staked Angel that would be poetic justice too?
Angel was the number one evil and Spike number two, so why does
Angel get anymore sympathy or breaks than Spike does? I think
the writers are establishing that Angel and Spike have family
ties and much in common. I feel that commonality is why Angel
is so rejecting of Spike as that brings it back home to him the
father figure. And if Spike is like Caleb then so is Angel.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Slayers
as sexless creatures -- Dlgood, 15:59:47 10/20/03 Mon
The Slayer isn't a woman to him she is a means to an end and that
end is admiration (vampires) or fear (vampires and humans).
--------------
Given all the sexual innuendo's Spike repeatedly attaches to his
discussions of Slayers - I think they are very much "women"
to him. They are most certainly fetishes and sex objects.
What they aren't to Spike - is people. They aren't people.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re:
Slayers as sexless creatures -- Rufus, 19:53:24 10/20/03
Mon
What they aren't to Spike - is people. They aren't people.
Spike as a soulless vampire views "people" in two ways,
food and the way to make more vampires, he see's Slayers as a
means to an end, a way to gain acclaim by killing what is considered
the biggest bad of them all for vampires. I remember in "Doomed"
Riley asked Forrest about the "Slayer"...
Riley: "What's a Slayer?"
Forrest: "Slayer? Thrash Band. Anvil handed guitar band with
delusions of Black Sabbath."
Riley: "No. A girl, with powers."
Forrest: "Oh. *The* Slayer. Oh, yeah, I've heard of the Slayer."
Riley: "Fill me in."
Forrest: "Well, the way I got it figured the Slayer is
like some kind of boogey man for the Subterrestrials, something
they tell their little spawn to make them eat their vegetables
and clean up their slime pits."
Riley: "You're telling me she doesn't exist."
Forrest: "Oh, wait a sec. Am I bursting somebody's bubble
here? Maybe this is a bad time to tell you about - the Easter-bunny?
(Laughs) Sorry, sorry, it's a myth, Rye. All part of that
medieval folklore garbage kooks dream up to explain things we
deal with every day."
Soulless, Spike doesn't value people at all. Even the chip in
his head didn't change much of that, though he was able to care
about some select people. He did however place a value on Slayers
in that he saw them as the ultimate challenge almost equal to
him. He didn't value people at all, didn't see them because as
a vampire he thought they were beneath him.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: It's Hard
to Find Good Help -- Philistine, 19:37:44 10/20/03 Mon
"As Angel said, three weeks in a basement is hardly fair
recompense for a century of evil."
Right, because Spike would be a much better person if he'd wasted
most of a century in useless self-pity - you know, the way Angel
did. I really don't see how this could possibly be a positive
for Angel; I mean, it's not like he did anything about
his Massive Heapings o' Guilt, he just wallowed in it until he
was dragged out and recruited for the Good Fight.
Not that Spike deserves any credit for his less-prolonged period
of absolutely useless waste-of-space-ness. He too had help from
an external agency - Buffy instead of Whistler - he just got it
sooner because the good guys didn't have another century to waste.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: It's
Hard to Find Good Help -- Dlgood, 20:45:59 10/20/03 Mon
Right, because Spike would be a much better person if he'd wasted
most of a century in useless self-pity - you know, the way Angel
did.
-------------------------------
But, IMHO, this is a false choice. IMHO - they both needed to
move beyond their instinctive approaches.
Angel wasted a lot of time with his various abortive attempts
to live in the world (1920's, 1950's, 1970's) and help people
out during the 20th century. While Angel appreciates just how
much others have suffered for what he's done, he's squandered
opportunities to make something worthwhile out of his existence.
Spike, seems to have not fully contemplated or understood what
he'd done - and more importantly - the effects his acts have had
upon others around him. And while Spike seems to be trying to
make something worthwhile out of his existence, he doesn't seem
to fully appreciate just how much others have suffered as a consequence
of his actions - and doesn't appear all that sensitive to the
feelings of others.
IMHO - both need to strive for balance. At this point, Angel seems
a bit further along to me, now that he seems a bit more focused
on translating his concern for humanity into beneficial action.
Spike, OTOH, still seems a bit hollow in this regard - he has
still yet to really connect with humanity.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: What about Angel mentoring
Spike? -- Claudia, 11:07:57 10/20/03 Mon
[As for LeeAnn's statement that Spike's attitudes being feminist,
I'd point out that a vampire who defines himself by his ability
to kill the strongest women he can find hardly qualifies.]
In an odd sort of way, I think it does. Unlike Angel, I don't
think that Spike was really into going after helpless women as
victims. I think he saw his encounters with the Slayers as challenges.
And considering his remarks about Nikki Wood and Buffy, he seemed
to have a high regard toward them as what he viewed as "fellow
warriors".
[> [> [> [> [> Season 2 Spike and Angel reconstitutes
the patriarchy. -- LeeAnn, 01:04:45 10/20/03 Mon
I never know quite how to view Season 2 Spike, particularly early
Season 2 Spike when he was supposed to last only 2-5 episodes
and was viewed as a throw-away character. On the one hand we are
stuck with the origins and character for Spike we were given then
and on the other hand they just don't make sense when viewed through
the lens of the last 3 seasons. Angelus was NOT Spike's sire,
Dru was. Despite the interaction in School Hard and Innocence
I don't think Spike and Angelus were ever close in any way. I
view Spike's reaction to Angelus' return in Innocence as
almost toadying, a sort of tail-wagging beta response to the alpha's
return and something that ends pretty soon as Spike remembers
HE was the alpha till then. Spike's position in the Fang Gang
was, at most, Angelus' minion and, judging from Fool for Love,
not a very good minion but one who was more concerned with challenging
and taunting Angelus than learning from him. Except when he mentioned
"The Slayer." Without his relationship with Dru I think
Angelus would have killed Spike pretty quickly. But again, it
is the girl who keeps Spike alive.
I'm just fanwanking but I see Spike as learning from Angelus without
there being much mentoring, just Spike being told to do things,
post a guard, watch your back kind of things, and remembering
them. I don't see Angelus ever deliberately trying to teach Spike
anything and I see Spike as learning almost as a kind of theft,
stealing Angelus' knowledge and tactics without ever embracing
him or his philosophy. Angelus likes the artistic kill and the
trappings of wealth, that is how he validates himself. William
was an artist, a bad artist it's true but "artistic"
doesn't have the appeal for Spike that it has for Angel nor does
wealth. Liam had lived a freer life than William ever had but
I think William was, in terms of class, above Liam and to Victorians
class was a cage. It's one of the first things William/Spike discards
in his quest for freedom, for a new self while Liam/Angelus embraces
the trappings of a higher class than his mortal self occupied.
For Spike it's fist and fangs against a mob that makes him feel
he's proved himself. Liam proves himself by becoming one of his
"betters" by being artistic and by assuming the trappings
of a higher class. For Spike the upper class had no siren call.
He assumes a lower class persona and what, I think, he sees as
the lower class's greater freedom. Angel repeatedly sets himself
up as a patriarch, as the daddy, replacing his father in a family
group where he is the boss. Spike sets himself up as a lone wolf,
totally free except for his love of his mate.
Just look at the last AtS. Angel is in this huge luxurious penthouse,
surrounded by the trappings of wealth. That's what he likes, what
is important to him. Spike, on the other hand, has spent the last
year living in the school basement or Buffy's basement because
trappings are not important to him. Buffy was what was important
to him. I can't imagine Angel living in Buffy's basement. He would
have found himself a new place where Buffy would visit him, where
he would be in charge because Angel sees himself that way. In
the last AtS the Angel "family" is finally allowed to
visit the patriarch in his lair, the daddy surrounded by the family
that depends on him. It almost seemed condescension that he didn't
require them to genuflect as they approached him. They certainly
weren't allowed to drop by his manse without permission. Angel,
in the big apartment. Angel behind the big desk. Angel the daddy.
Spike, on the other hand, is homeless. No home. No lair. Not even
a body. And already he's invaded Angel's apartment and sat behind
his desk. Spike doesn't see himself as part of Angel's patriarchy,
though he fills the role of the perpetually rebellious son challenging
the father and trying to replace him. Now he's gone to Angel's,
well, minion Fred, to get help. Spike goes to a girl. To
Angel's girl.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Season 2 Spike and
Angel reconstitutes the patriarchy. -- Corwin of Amber, 08:49:35
10/20/03 Mon
>Just look at the last AtS. Angel is in this huge luxurious
penthouse, surrounded by the trappings of wealth.
Angel, from "Conviction", to Eve:
"What am I gonna do with 18 cars?"
In contrast to your characterization of Angel as seeking to lord
his wealth over others, I think he just instinctively seeks isolation.
Both from the idea of seeing whats coming, and because he thinks
he's a bit of a danger to others. He picks large, empty spaces
in out of the way places. Sewers, lofts, abandoned hotels - the
penthouse is just an upscale version of the same thing.
Angel has never been very big on the socialization. Eating rats
for 100 years will do that to you. It simply never occurred to
him to invite the gang up to the penthouse, or that they would
want to come.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Independence / Dependence
-- Dlgood, 15:51:30 10/20/03 Mon
Spike, on the other hand, has spent the last year living in the
school basement or Buffy's basement because trappings are not
important to him. Buffy was what was important to him. I can't
imagine Angel living in Buffy's basement.
-----------------------
Or, does Angel simply value his independence? In S3, while Buffy
is taking care of him, we also see Angel reading and exercising
on his own. He wouldn't live in Buffy's basement, IMHO, because
he wishes to be seen as an equal - not a dependent.
Spike, OTOH, has seemed historically drawn to set himself up as
a dependent - perhaps becasue it reinforces bonds with his Woman.
Ann is frustrated because William seems so dependent upon her
approval. Spike's dependent behavior in S7 keeps Buffy coming
back to mother him. Now, by repeatedly going to Fred, and only
Fred, she has now become responsible for him. Thus reducing Spike's
own need to take responsibility for himself.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Hey, if it works,
it's right! -- LeeAnn, 00:21:36 10/21/03 Tue
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Season 2 Spike and
Angel reconstitutes the patriarchy. -- nobody, 16:43:23
10/20/03 Mon
Without his relationship with Dru I think Angelus would have killed
Spike pretty quickly. But again, it is the girl who keeps Spike
alive.
Thats something I've always wondered about; Angelus, Darla and
Drusilla seemed to be a sort of threesome, or at least played
that way (perhaps because we'd have no reference for a "pack"
of such human-like creatures as vampires, though how many people
are honestly going to have expirience with three-way romance),
why did Angelus invite Drusila to bring Spike into the mix (obvious
slash possibilities aside, keeping in mind he had no idea who
she'd choose to sire and no apparent affection towards Spike,
even in a twisted Angelus way) in effect taking her away from
him, and why did Angel and Darla allow him to stay on when both
seemed irritated with him at best.
[> Re: Spike: Going for the Girls -- LittleBit, 22:34:22
10/19/03 Sun
I'm assuming that the definition of 'man' here is limited to someone
either human or vampire. Because from the scenes we were shown,
I'd have said Spike and Clem were at least buddies, and that there'd
been a bit of sharing as well---Clem certainly didn't seem to
need much explanation about Spike and Buffy. Spike brought Clem
with him to Buffy's birthday party in OAFA. And Clem looked pretty
comfortable just showing up with hot wings, as if it were a regular
occurrence.
[> [> Friends -- LeeAnn, 01:18:23 10/20/03 Mon
That's a good point. Spike and Clem do seem to be buddies. Spike
makes references to "friends" but Clem is the only one
we ever see. In Becoming, Part 1, looking at the stone
monolith that holds Alcathla, he says It's a big rock. I can't
wait to tell my friends. They don't have a rock this big.
In Something Blue when Buffy seems to doubt his desire
for her to stop working once they marry, he says Let's see
- do I want you to give up killing all my friends? Yeah, I've
given it some thought. In Triangle as he pumps Xander
trying to find out if Buffy is angry at him, Oh, yeah. Okay.
No need to talk about her then. I'm sure she's merrily slaying
some pals of mine, having a grand old time.
Spike speaks of friends but we never see them, except for Clem.
Do they exist? I've decided not, that when Spike speaks of "friends"
it's just a rhetorical devise.
[> [> [> Re: Friends -- Tapioca, 08:08:06 10/20/03
Mon
Spike speaks of friends but we never see them, except for Clem.
Do they exist? I've decided not, that when Spike speaks of "friends"
it's just a rhetorical devise.~LeeAnn
Yes I agree, with the exception of Clem who I believe was a true
friend and because he was a true friend he was also a sign of
Spike's redemption and a movement away from his vampire self to
a more human self.
I don't think that any vampires have friends, that would mean
a self-less care of another that seems to be at odds with the
nature of vampires. Buffyverse vampires seem to have companions,
fellow hunters, minions, lovers even, but not friends.
I think we've seen that vampires can love, and I mean the love
one has for one's mate. ie. Spike and Drusilla, Darla and Angel.
But,even these relationships seem to have boundaries that reflect
the nature of the vampire. Mates seem to be chosen for their strength
as a vampire, and that vamp's ability to enhance the pleasure
the other vamp gets in the kill. As a result we get Darla picking
Angelus because he was the biggest bad ass around, but once he
was souled and could no longer lead her to new hights of evil,
she became disgusted with him. I believe it was Juliet Landau
who once said in an interview that Drusilla was with Spike, because
until Angelus' return, Spike was the meannest vampire there was.
The moment Angelus steps back into the picture her focus goes
to him. The fact that Spike cares for Drusilla even when she is
sick is a sign of his latent "human" tendencies that
we see emerge as the show progresses. If Darla had gotten sick
when Angelus was around I think he might have helped her for a
short time out of obligation to his sire, but if she had become
a burden I have no doubt that he would have left her behind.
So yes, I also feel that when Spike refers to "my friends"
that it is rhetorical.
[> [> [> [> Re: As Darla abandoned Angelus when
the going got rough -- Brian, 08:42:49 10/20/03 Mon
[> [> [> [> Crippled Spike -- Claudia, 11:25:22
10/20/03 Mon
[I believe it was Juliet Landau who once said in an interview
that Drusilla was with Spike, because until Angelus' return, Spike
was the meannest vampire there was. The moment Angelus steps back
into the picture her focus goes to him. The fact that Spike cares
for Drusilla even when she is sick is a sign of his latent "human"
tendencies that we see emerge as the show progresses. If Darla
had gotten sick when Angelus was around I think he might have
helped her for a short time out of obligation to his sire, but
if she had become a burden I have no doubt that he would have
left her behind.]
But if being around the "baddest" vampire was of the
first concern to Drusilla, why did she care for Spike when he
was crippled in late Season 2? Why didn't she just get rid of
the "burden" and hook her stars with Angelus exclusively?
And why did she express jealousy over what she thought was Spike's
obssession toward Buffy when they met in South America?
[> [> [> [> [> Perhaps her claravoyency led
her to believe that staying with Spike was prudent -- Sheri,
13:18:25 10/20/03 Mon
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Crippled Spike -- dlgood,
15:55:13 10/20/03 Mon
But if being around the "baddest" vampire was of the
first concern to Drusilla, why did she care for Spike when he
was crippled in late Season 2?
------------------------------------
Perhaps because she was flattered by the attentions and enjoyed
playing both males against each other. Dru seems to have had something
of a fickle nature. The first time around - it's quite possible
that Angelus played Darla and Dru against each other for his own
amusement. In which case, Dru would be following Daddy's footsteps.
[> [> [> [> [> [> . . . And Her Reunion With
Spike? -- Claudia, 12:19:57 10/21/03 Tue
That's possible. But the Judge in "Surprise" said that
both Spike "and" Drusilla had a spark of humanity within
them. It is also possible that in her own way, Drusilla did love
Spike? And wouldn't that explain her jealous outburst toward Spike's
obssession with Buffy, in South America?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: . . . And Her
Reunion With Spike? -- Dlgood, 13:25:08 10/21/03 Tue
The relationships aren't entirely simple.
I think one misses the point to evaluate Dru as returning to Spike
and being jealous simply because she loves him. Just as I think,
one misses the point by saying Dru plays Angelus and Spike against
each other solely because she enjoys attention.
She spent a century with him. She must care quite a bit for him,
or she would have found somebody else. But it cannot solely be
about her loving Spike, or she would not have turned so quickly
to Angelus (and been so unconcerned by of Spike's resentment)
if it was only love.
It's not so simple.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Loved --
Claudia, 14:21:36 10/21/03 Tue
I think that Drusilla did love Spike . . . in her own way. I also
think that she was jealous of his growing fascination with Buffy
in S2, and that was one of the reasons why she turned to Angelus
- to make him jealous. But when he had decided to form an alliance
with the Slayer in "Becoming", I think it was the last
straw for her.
Of course that is my opinion.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Loved
-- Dlgood, 15:44:17 10/21/03 Tue
I also think that she was jealous of his growing fascination with
Buffy in S2, and that was one of the reasons why she turned to
Angelus - to make him jealous.
-----------------------------------------------------
You're certainly entitled to that opinion, but I think it's less
to do with Buffy and far more about Drusilla.
She was with Angelus for twenty years before Spike came around.
She might well turn to Angelus simply because she likes Angelus.
And enjoys the attention. Indeed, she seems largely oblivious
or unconcerned with Spike's dissatisfaction. She doesn't even
know he can stand up!
Spike is jealous of her the minute he finds out she talked to
Angel, back in "Lie to Me" - and in "What's My
Line" he's also deeply angered by Angel's innuendo that he
doesn't know how to please Dru as well as Angel does. Spike's
insecurities w/respect to Angelus/Dru seem to be apparent before
he becomes Angelus, and before Spike seems to appear any more
fixated upon Buffy than he was on any of the other slayers he
was obessed with.
It's not that he allied with Buffy against her and Angelus - it's
that he dared to not serve her. Remember, she turned Spike to
serve as her knight. To be a pet. That he shows disloyalty to
her, I think is far more important than his particular fascination
with one slayer or another. After all, if he's going to question
her, and not follow orders, what's the point of having him around?
I don't think she'd ever seen that as Spike's place.
Semi-OT - This Land is Your
Land Part II - The flip side. -- OnM, 10:57:57 10/19/03
Sun
Earlier this last week, I posted an interesting article regarding
what seems like flagrant abuse of copyright law on materials that
most reasonable persons might consider to be public domain. It's
all about corporate greed, right?
Read on at:
http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/special_packages/inquirer_magazine/7045780.htm
Replies:
[> An Alternative Viewpoint -- dmw, 14:37:52 10/19/03
Sun
For the viewpoint of another artist, check this link:
Janis
Ian's Thoughts on Copying.
Oh, and thinking of corporate greed--prepare to defend your right
to your VCR again just like you had to the 70's, but this time
in high definition. Hollywood (the MPAA) wants to require all
recording devices have a "broadcast flag" for to prevent
the recording of HDTV broadcasts. The EFF
Action Center offers quick and easy ways to send your opinion
on this matter to the FCC, which has promised a ruling before
the end of October.
My analysis of "Unleashed"
is up -- Masquerade, 18:42:34 10/19/03 Sun
Good gets done at Wolfram and Hart despite everything here
Replies:
[> Re: My analysis of "Unleashed" is up --
skeeve, 09:19:17 10/20/03 Mon
Becoming a werefolf must have dimmed McManus's bulb a little.
A cage and a combination lock are all it would have taken to keep
him from eating his friends.
He wouldn't have had to tell anyone about it.
The episode also inspires some grim thoughts on the mechanics
of eating werewolf.
Apparently, so long as the werewolf remains alive, pieces bitten
or cut off remain pieces of werwolf.
The alternative is that one bites off werewolf and chews human.
That being the case, it would seem possible to cook werewolf flesh,
if one so desires.
Apparently, these diners prefered their food raw.
[> [> Analysis & Apology -- Claudia, 10:54:42
10/20/03 Mon
First of all, I would like to apologize if I've been a little
bitchy on the forum, lately. The past week or so, has been hellish
for me. I've had to deal with a troubling health, a transit strike,
a grocery strike and deal with the possiblity of an Austrian-born
body-builder/Hollywood action star as my future governor.
Secondly, here is my review of "Unleashed":
""Unleashed" wasn't a bad episode - rather mediocre,
if I must be honest. The first two episodes were better. There
isn't much I can say about a typical "monster-of-the-week"
episode, but I do have a few observations.
*Spike's behavior reminded me of when he first had the Initiative
chip planted in his brain, back in Season 4 - loud, annoying and
very desperate for help.
*Not only was I disturbed by Angel's willingness to allow that
scientist to be kept as the next meal, but by the attitude of
the others. None of the Fang Gang seemed concerned by the scientist's
fate. And the odd thing is that the only reason he was part of
that scheme in the first was due to his fear of Crane - the real
villain. One way of embracing evil, is to lose one's ability for
mercy. After what happened with Hauser and the scientist, I'm
afraid that Angel and the others have already taken this first
step.
*I recognized the actor playing the scientist - John Billingsley,
from "Star Trek: Enterprise".
*Wes's jealousy of Fred's time with Knox seemed off the mark and
unecessary.
*The relationship between Spike and Angel seemed to have taken
a backward step after what they had achieved in "Just Rewards".
In the previous episode, they had learned to trust and rely upon
one another. Now that has disappeared, since Spike refuses to
trust Angel; and Angel tries not to acknowledge Spike's presence.
How sad."
[> [> [> I thought that about Spike's character too
-- RJA, 12:54:37 10/20/03 Mon
I was getting a very strong season4 chipped vibe from him. Which
is both interesting and understandable - both times he is being
restrained in real and important ways, and there's an interesting
conflict in that while unable to kill as an "evil thing",
now that he is good, he is unable to do very much at all. That
must be making him ask a few questions.
Hope your health is better.
[> [> [> apology appreciated, claudia--hope you feel
better -- anom, 12:56:45 10/20/03 Mon
I hope your health troubles are resolved completely & soon. To
be frank, I've mostly avoided reading your posts, for the reason
you mention (esp. the time you responded w/a rude epithet to someone
who had posted a polite response to you) & because often they
seem to be in the wrong place & I can't tell who/what you're responding
to. I probably wouldn't have opened this one except for the word
"apology" in the subject line. But I'm glad I did.
On the episode, good point about Spike's behavior. Spike doesn't
adjust very well to involuntary changes in his circumstances--at
least, not at 1st.
I'm pretty sure all of the FG knew they were going to shut down
Crane's operation, so Royce wouldn't really end up on the menu
next month. Not that I don't still have a problem w/their letting
him think he would. Yes, I know it's more dramatic that
way, & it showed us how willing Crane was to turn on one of his
own "employees." But I'd rather have seen the consequences
for Crane--I hope they went beyond losing his business. Or is
that one of the compromises the gang is learning to make?
[> [> [> [> Re: apology appreciated, claudia--hope
you feel better -- yabyumpan, 13:34:35 10/20/03 Mon
But I'd rather have seen the consequences for Crane--I hope
they went beyond losing his business. Or is that one of the compromises
the gang is learning to make?
That hits on a problem I've been having with fan critism of Angel's
behaviour this season. What else could they do that doesn't include
violence or death against Crane which would have then brought
up another string of posts about 'Angel going dark'. Maybe they
could have brought Cannabilism charges aginst him but I don't
see how that would stick as Crane and his customers were going
to consume Nina in 'Animal' form.
I think it brings up a very intersting problem, just how do you
deal with an Human Evil that uses 'Magical' means to do 'Evil'?
What do you do with the people who 'human' laws can't deal with?
I think this was highlighted with Willow's story on BtVS over
the past couple of seasons.
If we continue to go by the maxim on AtS that 'killing humans
is a bad thing' and that they shouldn't kill humans because they
have a chance of redemption, then what are Angel and Co's options
when dealing with the now mostly human evil they're being confronted
with? Some sort of 'Redemption/reform' unit for magic inclined
evil doers?
I don't know what the answer is but if people are going to judge
Angel's treatment of human evil doers this season as 'wrong' or
a sign that he's going 'dark', I'd be interested to read what
people think his options are.
[> Re: My analysis of "Unleashed" is up --
skeeve, 13:32:19 10/20/03 Mon
Angel didn't just sense a disturbance, he sensed a werewolf.
Otherwise, asking for Wes's pen didn't make any sense.
Of course, had he been a bit less nonchalant about it, he might
have been there in time to prevent the bite and given us a short
episode.
Rhyme without reason (Angel
Odyssey 5.3) -- Tchaikovsky, 09:18:25 10/20/03 Mon
5.3- 'Unleashed'
For purposes quite far from clarity
Amidst the wreckage of tradition's stare
I tumble thoughts as an impassioned nymph
To Whedon's shepherd. Every week I flow
Half-hoping venturer, in prose unfit,
To bring the revolutions of the mind
(The mind endowed by Muse of genius)
To paper. Now I start out once again
A ninetieth attempt to give the thread
Of Angel all the praise it still deserves.
Unleashed, unfettered, bound no longer stays
Emotions grind inevitably on
The bestial fervour reigns within us all
While incorporeal to stake its claim.
And when the creature manifests itself
How we react is what will make us more
Than animals, our human, cod reserve
Allows a dignity to mask our fears
Like clothes on naked skin. But when we lie
Like Nina in the dark, uncluttered cell
Disturbed by just what lurks beneath the veil
The naked visage haunting after fact,
We turn away unbearing of our soul.
And in this episodic tete-a-tete
Where scribes encourage us to watch, respond
Unknowing of the twisted thread to come,
We see this theme, the animal mankind,
Repeated. Here in third of five there's three.
In Nina, Angel, Spike. The artistry
Allows our common mind to intercede
And cobble quite miraculous mosaics,
Kaleidoscopes another writer claims.
Angel, the centre, anti-hero, lead
A trochee in an iamb's sole preserve
A leopard striped, an animal unknown,
Keeps all the anger hidden in a well
Rained in by world's half-careless fortitude.
Beneath the visage of the strong, good man
Lies vamp-face, Royce's fear tells us well
Just what the bestial anger might connote.
He claims, in helpfully poetic mode
'It wasn't you- it was the thing inside'
And here lurks Angelus, the shadow man
The distant centre, man on whom is built
Miraculous Xanadu of Angel's life
A Byzantine, baroque world full of stale
Delight, and plural wrongs still searching yet.
And while he saves the newest werewolf's skin
The lumberjack in 'Riding Hood' creeps in
To such a fevered mind as mine. We ask
Just who is who? For here our little child
Our nine year-old, the artist, the observer,
The future Angel, Nina, Gunn and Fred
Is Riding Hood, and Nina is the wolf,
And grandma too? The saviour in the end
Is Angel-lumberjack, who swings his axe
And yet will use a complex art of talk
To still the diatribe of Wolf a King
And not prevent the canine from existence
But rather show just how it is controlled,
How subjugated, not an Evil hidden.
An aspect of the man covered with sand.
So while we know that Angel's good advice
Has helped our Nina-wolf to save her life,
And not to feel each freak deserves a death,
We wonder whether to himself his own
Advice is rather dangerous, because
While feebly cornering Angelus' bite,
His anger resides deep yet unresolved
Til Gunn, the lackey gets the brunt of it
At moment seeming perfectly unfit.
The second wolf, Nina herself, the girl,
Who's already a woman, not a sister
But aunt to little child of fairy tale.
And what we see again here is the moon,
Which lights both Spike and Nina in the story
And the Werewolf Legend trips itself around
Here female. Where we once had Oz- whose song
Was male-ness under wraps, peacefully crooned
To sleep until the painful three days' space-
Here we encounter periods untamed.
That three day time when pain is guaranteed
Not themic only, hideously real.
Here Nina is the girl whose milk is red
Today, the next day, two days hence and then
Dropping away for double fortnight's width
Repeated, cyclical, half-like the moon
Waxing and waning in the darkened hours.
And so we have a link between the full
Grown woman and the paleness of man.
The half-seen, waxing, waning, in and out
Sometimes not there at all, others full yellow
The Hunter, if still incorporeal.
Reflected light, half-soul, half anger, half
too much to understand quite fully here,
But Spike is still the character whose run
Whose Voyage, Odyssey conflicts with myth.
He is the narrative's thorn, he Yorick's skull
The jester, out of time with earth with Sun,
With Father Angel, Brother, Patriarch,
And here throughout the conflict is hard hurt
By conflict between Nina and Spike's songs
An aria of womanhood set against
A not-quite-manhood slipping towards Hell.
And what of this fall, Saviour burning now
The Lucifer once Holy now renowned
And Diabolic, what for Spike's contin-
-uation through the mottled depth of life?
Angel is Atlas, Christian similes pale
Before the vengeful Greeks, their tragedy
And while he holds the world with not a shrug
Hades is his, ignored and unresolved.
Leaving the finished animal alive
With parts, Angel, Nina and old Spike
The unresolved with guilt still deep inside
The new and freakish set upon her path
And the reflection, yet to understand.
The past, the present, future, all contained
In minutes, Angel, Father, Nina, daughter
And Spike the Holy Ghost, for now and ever
World without end Amen. The echoes ride.
A gothic ending percolates this piece
With Royce deserving getting what's deserved
A just dessert to Nina's fraught main cause.
Or otherwise, for while to my mind this
Has nasty and delicious carelessness
First Hauser, Hainsley and now Royce despatched
With little more than cursory disdain,
Is good for Angel's story one must mull
On Angel's carnage and what it purports.
Before this, we have Fred the spectacled
Her character developing quite well
In measured time with Spike's high-octane Tales
The melo-drama seeping through his words
Rings happily in Fred's logistic head
And makes the Grecian magnitude of Ge
No more than mice half-ambling through a maze.
A maze without a centre we may say.
But fleeing isn't the right way to go,
And Fred has learnt, and now imparts her lore
To Nina, who's placated, more and more.
For finally, the word that Fred must find
Expressing links that casually winds
Around the thread of narrative that lurks
In all half-sensible dramatic works,
Is Family. The family of Tara,
The family that killed for the Amara,
The family of freaks, the strange-eyed crew,
Forever making plans forever new.
There's Gunn, disowned by choice, the legal man
The green-skinned from his Mother's beard ran
There's Fred, semi-detached from parent's South,
And Wesley for whom parents' wounding mouth
Is cushioned by Atlantic's myrtle tide,
And Angel for whom all links that reside,
Inside the defiant face stay half-effaced,
And talk of love with economy spaced.
The family begin with covert meets,
And end up safe in Angel's new retreat,
Ordering food that earlier, on his own
Angel had cooked for Wes- and- he alone?
In Parting Gifts. Here's still a story waiting
For conclusion and further demonstrating.
What else? 'Girls, guys and puppies' Angel saves
An Orphean allusion for Fred,
Distinct from all the stories of before.
But do we guess, that, Spin the Bottle, leading
surely on from Supersymmetry
That Craft and Fain's debut was really feeding
on the celestial hand of Whedonry?
For here there's solid-ness, and little more,
We see the Season bubbling on before us,
But while we've heard the verse, we're waiting for,
The resolution waiting in the chorus.
Thanks aliera, thanks to all who read.
By TCH, who's mad, and off to bed.
Replies:
[> Much irrelevant foot-noting (sp 5.3 above indicentally)
-- Tchaikovsky, 09:23:44 10/20/03 Mon
-I'm off to Wind Orchestra in a minute, and the man who conducts
us is the spitting image of Giles in both form and voice, except
for the fact that he's about five feet tall. Something about Gachnar.
-In a fit of anti-husbandry, I spent yesterday buying Angel's
Season 2 DVD, and came home to watch 'Reprise'/'Epiphany'. Is
it even worth repeating how 'Reprise' is one of the finest pieces
of art in the last ten years? I guess I'm preaching to the choir,
but quite deliciously brilliant stuff.
-The above should be up at the
website a little later.
-Off to read Masq's analysis.
TCH
[> Now, that was just *neat*. -- Arethusa, 10:24:29
10/20/03 Mon
Yes, I think Fain and Craft are building on Whedon's theme. It
seems that Angel's gone from being New Testament to being Old
Testament. His human body count is really starting to add up.
Is he savior or punisher, the God of terrible retribution or of
salvation? And the allusion to Orpheus-the demon swallowed up
whole again, like the wolf swallowed Grannie and Red until the
Woodsman slit the belly of the beast and let them out. Angel is
both wolf and woodsman, savior and beast. As men are both the
danger and the desire to the young girl who is about to become
a woman, with red-stained garments. Loved how you pointed out
Nina is now tied to lunar cycles twice.
[> [> Moon imagery (sp 5.3) -- Tchaikovsky, 13:46:17
10/20/03 Mon
As soon as I saw the cut from the most affecting scene of Just
Rewards, the one where Spike tells Angel he wants to die,
to the full moon beaming down, I was thinking about the moon in
this Season. At the time, it seemed an apt metaphor for Spike,
(and particularly as OnM had already pointed out the Moon and
Spike in Chosen). But here in Unleashed, it was
used again, but here more for Nina. I'll be fascinated to see
if they drop it now, or keep using it for Spike, tying those themes
together. Of reflection, of monthliness, of dynamic change, of
reflecting others' light.
And as for the plurality of Angel, right on. How's that for intelligent
debate? ;-)
TCH
[> Re: Rhyme without reason (Angel Odyssey 5.3) -- aliera,
10:33:18 10/20/03 Mon
Just. Wow.
And you thought I couldn't be brief. ;-)
[> Uhm...wow..you've managed to make me appreciate Unleashed
(Angel Odyssey 5.3) -- s'kat, 10:48:03 10/20/03 Mon
Okay, kudos for writing a review of an episode without slamning
or complaining about a single character, and in iambic pentameter
no less. An achievement. Particularly the iambic pentameter -
since I've tried that and suck at it.
The second wolf, Nina herself, the girl,
Who's already a woman, not a sister
But aunt to little child of fairy tale.
And what we see again here is the moon,
Which lights both Spike and Nina in the story
And the Werewolf Legend trips itself around
Here female. Where we once had Oz- whose song
Was male-ness under wraps, peacefully crooned
To sleep until the painful three days' space-
Here we encounter periods untamed.
That three day time when pain is guaranteed
Not themic only, hideously real.
Here Nina is the girl whose milk is red
Today, the next day, two days hence and then
Dropping away for double fortnight's width
Repeated, cyclical, half-like the moon
Waxing and waning in the darkened hours.
Interesting - you bring out a myth illusion I didn't notice, which
means I really am getting burnt on the shows.
The three blonds in the house - with the central one bearing an
odd resemblance to Darla. Not to mention alluding to Buffy's family
of women. But the allusion to
the Little Red Riding Hood tale is interesting partly because
it is an allusion that the writers keep going back to over and
over again. In this case - we are in the point of view of the
Wolf, not little red riding hood who is the unsuspecting niece.
In prior ME versions - we were in either the mother or red riding
hood's point of view - ie. Joyce and Buffy. But that was on BTVS.
What you do a marvelous job of alluding to here, whether you intentionally
meant to do so - is point out that the focus in Angel is on humans
fighting their internal monsters, while on Buffy they are fighting
external monsters.
Angel's internal monster is so connected and entangeled with his
psyche that there are times he's not even certain where the monster
ends and he begins. Unlike Nina who only becomes a wolf three
times a month - Angel's monster can come out at any time. As Royce
discovers when he tells Angel he's not as scarey as Crane. Royce?
You have no idea.
Same with Nina - whom Royce doesn't appear to see as a threat
- she's so lovely, yet her werewolf takes a chunk out of Royce's
leg and infects him with her form.
The moon imagery - the fact that a woman goes through periodic
cramping and bleeding once every 28 days, just like the werewolf
emerges once every 28 days with the waxing of the moon. In Nina's
household - we have three versions of womanhood - the child, who
is innocent and unaffected by the periodic cramping, but someday
will be and whom if Nina isn't careful, she could end up infecting
much the same way OZ got infected by his cousin, a bite on the
finger. The mother, sister to Nina, who has had a child and biologically
fulfilled the intent behind the cramping.
Nina - may also be representative of the adolescent and the monstrousness
of hormones. She appears to be young, child-like in some respects.
Still living with an older woman relative, babysitting, going
to school - which makes me think the werewolf may be a metaphor
for the emerging hormones - the monstrous side of her feminity.
Just as the vampire in Angel and Spike is the unresolved monsterous
side of their masculainity? Often the wolf is portrayed as male
in these stories - symbolizing the young girl's fear of sexuality
or the other, in this story it appears that it may in fact symbolize
the young woman's fear of her own sexuality - internal not external?
Her fear of herself and her own inability to control her desires
and inhibitions as opposed to someone else's. She reactes to her
sister's questions oddly - like someone who got into a fight with
her boyfriend or someone who is dating a person her sister would
not approve of.
But Spike is still the character whose run
Whose Voyage, Odyssey conflicts with myth.
He is the narrative's thorn, he Yorick's skull
The jester, out of time with earth with Sun,
With Father Angel, Brother, Patriarch,
And here throughout the conflict is hard hurt
By conflict between Nina and Spike's songs
An aria of womanhood set against
A not-quite-manhood slipping towards Hell.
Again, an interesting comparison of emerging womanhood and manhood
in conflict. Like a brother and sister. The woman's monster appears
once a month - it doesn't quite doom her.
Just takes her periodically out of the world. And she can blame
it on that "time" of month. The female adolescent is
also described in our culture as maturing quicker than the male
and her monster can be both devourer and the devoured.
With the party-goers - we see Nina first set up as the meal, the
one to be devoured while helpless in human form, like a sacrificial
virgin complete with garnishing, then after Angel frees her, she
changes into werewolf form and sets about devouring the party-goers.
The one-to-be devoured becomes in effect the one doing the devouring.
Years ago when I was collecting stories for a folklore class,
I ran across some crude jokes which oddly enough echoed some legends
I collected - the jokes where about the male anatomy being devoured
by the female anatomy. One involved a pickle and a cave. (I said
they were crude).
The legends - dealt with wells and men falling in them after being
led there by a beautiful woman who turned monsterous once they
came upon the well. Symbolically -The fear of being devoured -
is explored through both the jokes and the legends.
On Spike's end of the equation - we are exploring the male adolescence,
the fear of growing up, the Peter Pan motif.
Peter Pan disappears whenever anyone tries to make him grow up
- flies away to Never Land - coaxing young women with him. He
is also seen constantly fighting with his wayward shadow. To Pan
growing up equals death.
Spike has been on a journey towards adulthood for some time now
- the series has often used sacrifical deaths to represent a character's
transistion from one stage of development to another. Buffy passed
from adolescence to young adulthood when she jumped off the tower
for Dawn. Her leap had sexual connotations as well - since the
tower was in some ways phallic in character and the leap was into
a perpetual state of bliss that she could only recreate by having
sex with Spike. Spike similarly moves past childhood to adulthood
in Season 7, by first getting the soul, next confronting the mother,
and finally sacrificing himself in the cave. Note that Spike's
sacrifice happens in the cave, which does in affect devour and
consume him. The First Evil in CWDP is depicted as the devouring
mouth and it is in the underground caves that Spike keeps encountering
her. And the FE appears to Spike as his two lovers - Buffy and
Drusilla who also have metaphorically given birth to his two states
of being - one the vampire and one the vampire with the soul.
Psychologically when he enters the hellmouth or the cave - he
is entering manhood.
In Unleashed - we learn that the cave is trying to consume him
- it keeps trying to get him back. He's being yanked.
Only a portion has escaped - a shadow. Like Peter Pan he seems
out of phase. On the cusp of adult hood, struggling between the
two worlds. Just as Buffy in S6 BTVS struggled between adulthood
and childhood.
Angel is an adult, but he also struggles. Angel's struggles with
his monsters are the struggles adults have with theirs.
He's another kettle of fish altogether. The LumberJack, the Patriach,
the Older Brother. Yet at the same time, Angel never quite got
the opportunity to make the leap Buffy and Spike do. Angel has
had to do it more like Nina does, his adolescent monster lurking
beneath the surface always. Never completely contained. Angel
fears his sexuality in a different way than Spike. Just as Nina's
fear is different than Buffy's and far closer to Darla. Angel's
fears aren't about being devoured but of devouring. Of conquering.
And worse of all? Enjoying it. We see this through Nina - who
tells Angel that part of her wanted it - part of her enjoyed it.
That's the part that scares her. It's the more adult fear of sexuality
and how sex can become "power", as opposed to the adolescent
fear of being hurt or devoured.
Angel is frightened of himself. Spike is frightened of the world
around him.
Thanks for the lovely poem. Hope my ramblings above made some
sense and didn't just repeat things that have been said before.
sk
[> [> Internality and externality (sp 5.3) -- Tchaikovsky,
14:14:55 10/20/03 Mon
That was delicious- I'm glad a had a bit of a hand in coaxing
it out of you.
On the raging female hormones, I agree entirely. Although Nina
is grown up enough to be considered attractive by Angel [that's
15, right? ;-)], she is considered on the verge of adulthood,
when, as you say, she's placed between the niece and the sister.
I desperately want to quote Carol Ann Duffy's magnificent 'Little
Red-Cap' now, because you made me think of one of the lines when
I was reading your post. I promise to post it tomorrow. And the
way that the fact that the woman is the werewolf, so the period
imagery is internal like Angel's dilemma rather than external
as when women are attacked by werewolf's- great point.
Peter Pan is interesting. As I'm in word-jazz mode, when I looked
at the name, I saw it separately, something I'd never done before.
Peter, as in Simon Peter, the innocent and stupid and extremely
loving one of the disciples- the one whom you always imagine the
other disciples laughing at when he asked an awkward question,
but secretly not knowing the answers himself. And in the end,
the holder of the keys of Heaven, for that innocent and good-heartedness.
And Pan, the sneaky, cheeky Greek God. And what does that say
about JM Barrie? Christian and Greek myth collide again. And so
to Spike. And I'm going to stop free associating now...;-)
And, wow, Buffy's leap off the tower, the phallic symbol, into
the whirlpool, the leaping chasm, the vagina dentum, in 'The Gift'.
The ultimate fulfilment of femininity to contrast with the tower
which was built by mad people
On the internality of monsters in Angel, that's a fantastic
point. We've always had the demon inside Angel, which he recognises.
He's tried to deny it, and decided he couldn't (In the Dark,
I Will Remember You), we've had the re-establishment of
the demon (Eternity, Awakenings), we've even had
the section where there was a slight integration of the two, neither
Angel nor Angelus, as Darla claims to Drusilla in Redefinition.
And we've had the situation where he's had a completely humanising,
non-Angelus rage, in Forgiving which was about the monster
inside the human Angel, triggered by the extreme and extremely
human suffering of losing his baby. So the gamut runs, and the
gannets circle, and Angel goes on, yet to be fully reconciled
with his inner demon. I look forward to Angel's Chosen,
but I hope it's a darker episode, in keeping with Angel's rebel
noirness.
So basically, yes, brilliant post, no rehashing, and thank you
as always for your perceptive-ness.
Oh, and finally
What you do a marvelous job of alluding to here, whether you
intentionally meant to do so
Just a note to say- I don't know whether I meant it or not! What
I really love about poetry, and why this wasn't a hollow exercise,
for me writing at least, was that poetry allows and promotes levels
of meanings which aren't explicit. Sometimes in prose that comes
across as wooliness, but in poetry, where the reader's expecting
a bit more of a challenge to understand, it hopefully comes across
as stimulating. I'll be damned if I'm not allowed to take credit
for things I wrote but didn't mean! I love the smaller importance
of authorial intent in poetry. Maybe it's just in the poetry I
write, it's so impenetrable that people end up reading what they
want to read!
TCH
[> [> [> Poetry, Sisters and Brothers, Derrida and
Monsters within (sp 5.1-5.3) -- s'kat, 18:15:46 10/20/03
Mon
Just a note to say- I don't know whether I meant it or not!
What I really love about poetry, and why this wasn't a hollow
exercise, for me writing at least, was that poetry allows and
promotes levels of meanings which aren't explicit. Sometimes in
prose that comes across as wooliness, but in poetry, where the
reader's expecting a bit more of a challenge to understand, it
hopefully comes across as stimulating.
Poetry does odd things to me - it hits and coaxes things out of
my subconscious that prose never quite manages, with the possible
exception of poetical prose or stream of consciousness writing.
Since I tend to be more intiutive in my processing than thinking
- that may be the reason it
hits me in this way. Not sure.
All I know is it wasn't until I read your poem that I suddenly
understood why certain elements of Unleashed disturbed me. Particularly
the trio of blond women in different stages of development - yet
very close stages, the child verging on adolescence, the adolescent
whose become the young adult and adult who is a mother. Note Nina
is not the older daughter but the younger sister. Interesting
choice the writers made here - why did they choose a younger sister
as opposed to a daughter? More to the point why is her relationship
with her older sister more that of a "daughter" (like
Dawn's with Buffy) and her relationship with her neice in some
respects similar to an older sister?? Nina's relationship with
her older sister could potentially be compared to Spike's relationship
with Angel.
Note in Unleashed - Nina refuses to share her situation with her
older sister. The AI team attempts to get her too on two occassions.
First Fred tries to convince Nina to share it, but she veers away
from it, frightened and rushes out - immediately upon rushing
out of her home she is nabbed by the villians. Angel tries to
convince Nina to try and share the experience with them later,
but she refuses and he lets it go. In the beginning when her sister
asks her what's up with her, Nina pushes her sister away. When
her sister confronts Nina, Nina says "you can't depend on
me any more". When Angel and Fred ask her why - she expresses
her fear of being treated differently. Oh - Nina's family is all
women. The only female she lets in on it is Fred - but she is
given no choice, everyone else is male. And it's only Angel -
a male that she trusts.
Compare this to Spike - who similarly hides his situation from
Angel and company. Like Nina, Spike only trusts someone of the
opposite sex with his situation, someone he feels may understand
what is going on with him. Like Nina, he doesn't trust his "brother"
with the information. He fears that Angel will treat him differently?
Yet, the situation is getting progressively worse. And like Nina,
by not sharing he may be endangering more than just himself?
Not sure if I've read too much into that or not. ;-)
On another board - the Angel's Soul Board which is a spoiler board,
a wonderful poster named morgain (she posted a similar item on
Angel After Spike this summer, but it contained spoilers so you
couldn't read it) posted an item from Jacques Derrida regarding
the monster within. Derrida hypothesizes that each of us has a
monster and it takes different forms. In some cases when the monster
is revealed it is an ugly bestial presence, untamed and in others
domesticated like Maurice Sendak's "Where The Wild Things
Are". How we reacte to the monster within often determines
how it manifests. Ugh it's impossible to paraphrase her post and
since it does a marvelous job of describing the monster in each
character? I'm going to repost it but remove future spoilers,
hopefully if morgrain is lurking out there she won't mind. ;-)
It's a great post and on topic.
I am partiularly struck by the members of AI wanting to put
Spike to "rest" in Just Rewards-- more like create a
nonexistence for him [read "kill" him], mostly because
they do not understand his purpose / nature. This is further explored
in Unleashed... most of their "monsters have been kept under
control... tight rein... as is pointed out above, they are let
loose in this episode.
Jacques Derrida, a French post-modern philospher talks about a
concept called "the monster within". Now this is not
a new metaphor in the Whedonverse, and was particularly well illustrated
by both Angel/us and
Spike with regards to their demons. But he further talks about
our reactions to the appearance of "the
monster".
Derrida's suggests that "the future is necessarily monstrous:
the figure of the future, that is, that which can only be surprising,
that for which [they] are not prepared, you see, is heralded by
a species of monsters."
So, Spike represents the visual [can't say physical] manifestation
of the monstrous future awaiting the Fang Gang at W&H. He
is physically tied to W&H... he is their property.... a concrete
metaphor for how W&H may own the souls of the gang from AI. And
what is their reaction to the monster? Indifference.... hostility....
except for Fred.
Derrida contends that monsters are monsters only as long as they
are not domesticated. So, Spike becomes "domesticated",
that is, an agent of the former AI philosophy within the belly
of the beast. He comes up with a plan; implements it with Angel.
But can all monsters become domesticated? One can try and domesticate
a monster, and may end up
with a tamed pussycat or in the belly of the tiger.
The monster is in everyone, not just Angel... This is a metaphor
for the corruption that W&H will attempt. The monster is the unfamiliar.
It might refer to anything we have never seen Angel and the other
do. This I think we will see on an individual level with each
member of the Fang Gang:
* for Angel, I do not think it is his demon, rather it is his
humanity that is the monster within, especially as RJA once pointed
out to me the quote from Amends: "It's not the monster in
me that needs killing, it's the man."
If the Monster within Angel is the man, we have seen the first
step since his mind-wipe of all-things-Connor and a resetting
of Conner into a loving family came from the father, not the demon.
And what are the monstrous consequences of the ripple in the space-time
continuum? Angel is increasingly taking on the role of judge-jury-and-executioner
with regards not just demons but humans. His sense of power, gained
from being CEO at W&H is very reminiscent of his uncaring antics
as Liam.
Derrida: "The monster is also that which appears for the
first time and, consequently, is not yet recognized." So,
each of the members of AI may metaphorically face their own monster
from within.
* I at first thought that Fred might explore the aggression within
her, but this was sort of covered in her relation to her former
mentor who sent her to Pylea, so for Fred, it might be the power
to alter nature that comes with science.
In addition, a monster may be obviously a composite figure of
heterogeneous organisms that are grafted onto each other. This
graft, this hybridisation, puts heterogeneous bodies together
and may be called a monster.
* Gunn has undergone a serious of medical intervention that has
enhancing his abilities and pushed his potential. For him, the
unknown obviously is going to be the power of the mind and intellect...
cunning and craftiness, something he was not
"known" for formerly. Is he inadvertently creating himself
into a monster? In this way, monstrosity reveals what normality
is.
Monsters are living beings and can be aspects of the person [the
monster within] that appears for the first time and, consequently,
is not yet recognized. It frightens because no anticipation had
prepared one to
identify this aspect of self. yet, each person must domesticate
his / her own monsters.
Sometimes they are ugly and monstrous like:
[a Goya painting often associated with Derrida's monster]
and sometimes they are quite Sendakian and easily tamed.
To paraphrase Maurice Sendak in Where the Wild Things Are:
Perhaps the monsters will be tamed by staring into their yellow
eyes without blinking once, that is being able to look into their
hearts of darkness and stare them down and not be defined by them.
Some will tame the monsters within; some, like the Goya painting,
may be consumed by it.
Actually there were 0 future spoilers in her post but the posts
around her's were full of them, so I can't just send you to the
link. This link should be safe:
http://www.voy.com/14810/2/133030698.html
But since ASSB doesn't archive like Atpo does, it will be gone
in a day.
Sk
[> [> [> [> FYI The goya painting "Saturn
Devouring one of his Children" -- Ann, 18:34:26 10/20/03
Mon
This painting is in the Prado Museum in Spain. My husband was
there recently and brought home a book about Goya. From the Black
Painting series of oils, Goya painted this between 1819/20. From
mythology, Saturn married to his sister, "devours their offspring
as soon as they are born but their mother manages to cunningly
save the youngest, Zeus who, once come to manhood, comples his
sire to regurgitate his brood and then undertakes a victorious
war against the blood -sprung Giants or Titans". Quote from
Gallery Guide. Goya: Black Paintings by Valeriano Bozal
[> [> [> [> The goblin king in labrys serpentine
-- fresne, 08:32:34 10/21/03 Tue
All of a sudden, I am reminded of the Princess and Curdie.
Of the monster's who, if you know how to feel, have the hands
of people. Children. Of the men and women, who if your calluses
have been burned away, have the claws of monsters.
Each in a state of flux. The monsters trying to regain their humanity.
The humans sliding although they don't even know it. The hero,
who was on his own slide, all unknowing as he tried to be a man,
and in the words of a truly excellent movie, only succeeded in
being a guy.
And speaking of Saturn devouring his young, how very...hmmm. The
father who kills his children is also the father who becomes a
sort of mother, gestating those children to adulthood. Until the
youngest is traded for a rock and cesareans his father open and
out his siblings leap.
Athena, daughter of thought. An idea imprisoned in her father's
head.
Metamorphoses. People sliding into beasts and back again as easily
as dappled sunlight on a laurel tree. As easy as the wind on the
reeds.
[> [> [> Here's Little Red Cap -- Tchaikovsky,
03:19:26 10/21/03 Tue
From Carol Ann Duffy's 'The World's Wife'
Little Red-Cap
At childhood's end, the houses petered out
into playing fields, the factory, allotments
kept, like mistresses, by kneeling married men,
the silent railway line, the hermit's caravan,
till you came at last to the edge of the woods.
It was there that I first clapped eyes on the wolf.
He stood in a clearing, reading his verse out loud
in his wolfy drawl, a paperback in his hairy paw,
red wine staining his bearded jaw. What big ear
he had! What big eyes he had! What teeth!
In the interval, I made quite sure he spotted me,
sweet sixteen, never been, babe, waif, and bought me a drink,
my first. You might ask why. Here's why. Poetry.
The wolf, I knew, would lead me deep into the woods,
away from home, to a dark tangled thorny place
lit by the eyes of owls. I crawled in his wake,
my stockings ripped to shreds, scraps of red from my blazer
snagged on twig and branch, murder clues. I lost both shoes
but got there, wolf's lair, better beware. Lesson one that night,
breath of the wolf in my ear, was the love poem.
I clung till dawn to his thrashing fur, for
what little girl doesn't dearly love a wolf?
Then I slid from between his heavy matted paws
and went in search of a living bird- white dove-
which flew, straight, from my hands to his open mouth.
One bite, dead. How nice, breakfast in bed, he said,
licking his chops. As soon as he slept, I crept to the back
of the lair, where a whole wall was crimson, gold, aglow with
books.
Words, words were truly alive on the tongue, in the head,
warm, beating, frantic, winged; music and blood.
But then I was young- and it took ten years
in the woods to tell that a mushromm
stoppers the mouth of a buried corpse, that birds
are the uttered thoughts of trees, that a greying wolf
howls the same song at the moon, year in, year out,
season after season, same rhyme, same reason. i took an axe
to a willow to see how it wept. I took an axe to a salmon
to see how it leapt. I took an axe to the wolf
as he slept, one chop, scrotum to throat, and saw
the glistening, virgin white of my grandmother's bones.
I filled his old belly with stones. I stitched him up.
Out of the forest I come with my flowers, singing, all alone.
No time to comment, and apologies for typos as I'm late for a
biology lecture, but I think the comparisons are obvious.
TCH
[> Simply awesome. -- Plin, 10:49:31 10/20/03 Mon
[> I wish my right brain worked better (sp 5.3) -- Masq,
11:00:56 10/20/03 Mon
When I get into discussing episodes, I get into analytical mode,
and am less appreciative of word and verse and rhyme than I should
be as a writer.
So forgive me if I address the "points" you raised in
my very Masqy analytical style. I'm thinking of the scene with
Gunn and Angel discussing Nina and how Angel jumps down Gunn's
throat for no apparent reason. Something about Nina's situation,
or Angel's handling of Nina's situation, has struck a chord inside
Angel that he is less than proud of, and I'm thinking it has to
do with the memory wipe of the gang in Home, although I can't
find an exact correlation between how he (mis-)handled Nina's
situation (not saving her from being bitten) and his choice to
alter the memories/history of the gang in the midst of saving
Connor from himself (and binding himself in the process to Wolfram
and Hart).
At any rate, Gunn is bound to take Angel's snippiness personally,
as another sideways insinuation that Gunn is less than trustworthy
because he let Wolfram and Hart have access to his brain.
[> [> Re: I wish my right brain worked better (sp 5.3)
-- Arethusa, 11:58:26 10/20/03 Mon
"You did everything you could do" to save the girl,
Gunn told Angel, but Angel became upset when he's told this. Is
Angel wondering if he did everything he could to save Connor?
That if he tried harder he could have come up with a less drastic
remedy that would have let him keep his son? Is Angel thinking
about how his son, through an unhappy bit of bad luck, became
a monster and Angel couldn't prevent his pain like he won't be
able to prevent all of Nina's? He probably will be able to help
Nina deal with her new life as a monster. Why couldn't he help
Connor? The "what ifs" must be overwhelming at times.
Meanwhile, Angel is too busy to fight his own demons, whether
they are internal (Angelus) or external (Spike).
Did W&H use the amulet to trade Angel's (and therefore Spike's)
body for a new body for Connor? And if Spike gets a body back,
does that mean Connor will get his memories back? (I'm not spoiled;
this is just speculation.)
[> [> [> Re: I wish my right brain worked better (sp
5.3) -- Masq, 13:17:41 10/20/03 Mon
"You did everything you could do" to save the girl,
Gunn told Angel, but Angel became upset when he's told this. Is
Angel wondering if he did everything he could to save Connor?
That if he tried harder he could have come up with a less drastic
remedy that would have let him keep his son? Is Angel thinking
about how his son, through an unhappy bit of bad luck, became
a monster and Angel couldn't prevent his pain like he won't be
able to prevent all of Nina's? He probably will be able to help
Nina deal with her new life as a monster. Why couldn't he help
Connor? The "what ifs" must be overwhelming at times.
Meanwhile, Angel is too busy to fight his own demons, whether
they are internal (Angelus) or external (Spike).
This is exactly the conclusion I came to in my weekend LJ entry
on this scene. I didn't want to repeat it here, lest I get accused
of beating to much on the same topic over and over (I'm a Home
memory mojo nibbler). But that was my take.
[> [> Re: I wish my right brain worked better (sp 5.3)
-- Aliera, 12:51:07 10/20/03 Mon
I think it may be two-fold not just Connor but his own monsterhood,
as it were, where the chord is struck with Nina. But, maybe if
he can mentor someone else sucessfully not only will he feel better,
but be able to move on with Connor which obviously he's not doing
now. Also, I don't think the miasma of W&H can be overlooked,
although I think (as they always are) the Gang will be their own
worst enemies.
[> [> [> Re: I wish my right brain worked better (future
unspoiled speculation) -- Masq, 13:21:36 10/20/03 Mon
But, maybe if he can mentor someone else sucessfully not only
will he feel better, but be able to move on with Connor which
obviously he's not doing now.
But I don't want him to move on from Connor! Oops, sorry, *my
issues*.
I think this is where the Angel/Spike stuff is leading. That maybe
Angel can help Spike with the living-with-a-soul stuff, and Spike
can (in some way) fill the emotional void left by Connor.
It won't be a whole lot easier for Angel-Spike than it was for
Angel-Connor, but that might be why it will end up working for
both of them in a way helping Nina didn't help Angel move on.
[> [> [> [> Re: I wish my right brain worked better
(future unspoiled speculation) -- Aliera, 15:06:52 10/20/03
Mon
But I don't want him to move on from Connor! Oops, sorry, *my
issues*.
You know you and I are on the same page about this even if we
came to it from different directions.
I think this is where the Angel/Spike stuff is leading. That
maybe Angel can help Spike with the living-with-a-soul stuff,
and Spike can (in some way) fill the emotional void left by Connor.
Hmmm. I don't think about that as much as Spike playing his usual
shadow role. Pain-in-the-you-know-where. I'm got a visual now
of Angel with two mini-Spikes on his shoulders, the one on the
left with horns and a cute little tail, and the one on the right
with a battered halo and dirty wings playing "Conscious & Devil's
Advocate."
On the other hand, Spike actually is one of his offspring, even
if once removed.
To change the topic, any thoughts on the usage of the word "Mercy"
so many times, and Angel's extreemly unmerciful behavior? And
I found his "talks" with Nina ironic in the worst way.
I kept wanting to chuck things at the TV and call him many unladylike
names. Yet, I'm quietly enjoying myself this season. Won't say
they were stellar episodes by any stretch; but, I'm not feeling
like Jenoff.
Could use some Yeats tho':grin:
I know you guys are out there groaning. ;-)
[> [> [> [> [> Mini-Spikes -- Masq, 15:36:45
10/20/03 Mon
I'm got a visual now of Angel with two mini-Spikes on his shoulders,
the one on the left with horns and a cute little tail, and the
one on the right with a battered halo and dirty wings playing
"Conscious & Devil's Advocate."
I misread this at first glance, and got this hilarious image of
Angel with one little mini-Spike on his shoulders the way a father
boosts his child up on his shoulders and carries him around so
he can see everything around him from an adult height.
I think if they leave Spike as just the little voice of conscious
and criticism for the rest of the season, it will be a very two-dimensional
Spike. Why bring him onto the show to be the pain in Angel's butt,
a mere reflection of Angel's good and bad sides?
This is only the opening image of Spike. In upcoming episodes,
he should come into his own as a character, and perhaps have mini
Angels on his shoulders.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Mini-Spikes --
Aliera, 17:10:43 10/20/03 Mon
I think if they leave Spike as just the little voice of conscious
and criticism for the rest of the season, it will be a very two-dimensional
Spike. Why bring him onto the show to be the pain in Angel's butt,
a mere reflection of Angel's good and bad sides.
You're right it would be.
This is only the opening image of Spike. In upcoming episodes,
he should come into his own as a character, and perhaps have mini
Angels on his shoulders.
I guess I've been mentally picturing this season as darker like
Season 2 (which much love here for season 2) because what he did
at the end of Season 5 was big, and so it feels as if this Season
needs to reflect that. Are you thinking lighter? Really episodic?
Not much arc-iness?
Do you see the characters as reflective of Angel in the way that
subsidiary characters were on Buffy?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> I love darkness and
arcyness (unspoiled spec) -- Masq, 18:27:38 10/20/03 Mon
But I don't see how anything you're suggesting means darkness
and arcyness while what I'm suggesting means lightness.
Spike and Angel working grudgingly together to fight some big
bad (presumably, the Senior Partners) can be very dark indeed.
Bring out the monsters in both men before it's done.
Do you see the characters as reflective of Angel in the way
that subsidiary characters were on Buffy?
In what way were the subsidiary characters on BtVS reflective
of Buffy? I saw them all as individuals in their own right. Same
as the subsidiary characters on Angel. They each have their own
stories, personalities and struggles.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Differences
in reflections on BTVS/ATS (sorry for butting in) -- s'kat,
19:55:27 10/20/03 Mon
I can't speak for aliera, but I do think on BTVS the supporting
characters often were more reflective of Buffy than they were
individuals in their own right - at least at times. The series
often alluded to the idea that they were in effect all part of
Buffy's head.
While in Angel The Series - they may be representative of Angel
they tend to be more separate from him.
On BTVS - more often than not we found ourselves solely in Buffy's
point of view.
Willow/Anya/Tara represented her spirit
Xander her heart
Giles her head
Spike/Faith her shadow and foil
Dawn her inner child
Riley/Angel/Caleb - the representation of her father issues or
patriarchial issues - positive
Drusilla/Glory/Joyce - the representation of her mother issues
This is alluded to in episodes such as Primeval, Restless,
Chosen, Becoming, Graduation Day Part I & II, Who Are You.
BTVS really dealt with the metaphors of a young girl becoming
a woman and everyone around her was a reflection of that journey.
Sort of like looking into a kladieoscope.
ME were talented enough writers to provide each character who
wasn't Buffy with their own emotional character arc - but the
central one was Buffy's. As Whedon and other writers have stated
in interviews - they look for how each character affects Buffy
in each episode, what is Buffy's emotional arc here.
They do the same thing on Angel - look for Angel's emotional arc.
How does each character reflect on Angel, how does their arc affect
him? He's the center. However, since ATS is not a show based on
"growing up" metaphor and is more about "redemption"
with noir overtones as opposed to the more gothic overtones on
BTVS, I think the writers feel they have a bit more leeway to
explore the characters more outside of Angel's arc. Their actions
still reflect on Angel. But unlike Buffy, Angel does not have
to come out on top - he doesn't have to necessarily be the "star"
and the "female" lead doesn't have to be in a romance
with him or into him, necessarily. It seems to be a bit looser
a format to me for some reason. I can't exactly explain why, except
that I can't recall any Angel episodes that metaphorically referred
to the other characters as part of his psychology, like I can
with Buffy. The closest we come to a Restless episode is Home
- and each character's arc felt separate to Angel's in Home. Also
unlike Buffy - all the characters aren't going through phases
of growing up or needing redemption necessarily. Gunn, Fred, Wes
are all pretty much grown up and they certainly aren't responsible
for the number of dark deeds Angel has done. Their similarity
to Angel is more about being outcasts. While on Buffy - everyone
with the possible exception of Giles, was on the journey of growing
up and represented a specific area of that journey.
That said? I've always had problems with the idea that the show
is "All About Buffy", because the character I identified
with the least was more often than not, Buffy.
I identified more with Willow, Xander, Giles, Spike,
Tara, Anya, Dawn, Faith than I did Buffy. I think the only times
I identified with Buffy were briefly in S5 and S6.
So to say all the other characters were representations of her
always urks me a bit. Yet, I think on one level they probably
were.
Not sure that made a lick of sense. (Perhaps someone else, could
explain this better?)
sk
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I love
darkness and arcyness (unspoiled spec) -- Aliera, 22:52:22
10/20/03 Mon
No, not at all. Or rather, given that it's a Joss show, not all
all.
Text Talking with me is a bit like holding a real life conversation
with someone who only verbalizes half their sentences. One thought
led to the (next) and then to the questions. I was simply curious
to hear your thoughts. Thanks.
[> [> Mood and moods (sp 5.3) -- Tchaikovsky, 14:26:49
10/20/03 Mon
Well, there was a whole game going on about the dynamics of the
group. We get the book-ends of the episode being the beginning
where they're absolutely fraught and distrustful of each other,
and the end where they've worked through it, and the middle where
Gunn's grumpy, Fred's over-busy, Spike keeps offering unasked
for nuggets of opinion, and so on and so forth. So I think to
a degree it was a mislead on the break-up of the gang, which in
the end, from the point where Fred tells Nina about the Family,
is reversed so we see that nicely comfortable end scene.
But that's just the mood and theme game, which I play. As for
the direct cause of Angel's snippiness, yours and Arethusa's explanations
seem as sensible as any. Angel is, after all, all about saving,
and how much is he still wondering whether what he did for Connor
was right or wrong. Interesting in Just Rewards that he
was loving the idea of getting rid of Spike, not because he doesn't
want Spike around, (there's a look of sorrow in his eye just before
he brings the amulet crashing down), but because Spike has asked
to be put out of his misery, and Angel can do it with his consent.
The thing he could never do for his other, non-surrogate son.
He never asked Connor's consent, he never gave him a choice. He
just let the blood flow and then Connor toasted To family.
And who knows when that life-dream will end?
TCH- chewing on Masqy analysis goodness.
[> [> [> Re: Mood and moods (sp 5.3) -- Masq,
15:46:58 10/20/03 Mon
I didn't see them as being so distrustful of each other
in that opening scene as distrustful of Wolfram and Hart's motives.
It's this distrust of W&H that makes them wary of Gunn. They know
Gunn, they know the kind of person he is. They just worry what
W&H has put in his head that might make him into something he
formerly was not.
And when Gunn tries to reassure them this isn't so, he feels a
bit defensive and isolated from them. But again, that goes back
to W&H and their motives.
The thing that's hanging over all of them in the opening scene
is again, "How do we do any good here when the Senior Partners
are clearly up to something, and how do we find out what they
are up to?"
They also spend a lot of time in this scene and later scenes talking
about how busy they are with their duties and how it gives them
very little time to be introspective about the above questions.
It also leaves them very little time to ask "Why are we here
in the first place?" a question tied into the memory mojo
in Home.
Glad you enjoyed the Masqy analysis goodness! I always enjoy the
TCH review goodness!
[> [> [> [> Re: Mood and moods (sp 5.3) --
jane, 22:18:28 10/20/03 Mon
My take on the opening scene of Unleashed was much the same as
yours, Masq. I saw them as somewhat uncomfortable together, but
more because they were all so unsure of their place in W&H.
Their ultimate source of discomfort being the feeling of "What
the hell were we thinking?".
Wonderfully interesting thread here - really enjoyed your posts,
Masq and S'Kat.
Your poetry is amazing, TCH. I am left here reading with awe and
much pleasure; you sum up Unleashed beautifully.
[> Marvelous! And another myth to throw into the mix
-- Ponygirl, 11:49:13 10/20/03 Mon
That was very cool TCH! And filled with so much substance and
insight. I finally remembered why Spike's story of his battle
with the werewolf tweaked something - the Norse myth of Tyr losing
his hand to the wolf. Tyr was the god of justice but he lied in
order to ensure that the wolf would be bound and lost his hand
because of it. A sacrifice that hinged upon a lie - much Angel-centric
pondering...
[> [> Thanks -- Tchaikovsky, 14:32:30 10/20/03
Mon
I don't know anything about Tyr, but that certainly seems to fit
in. Angel, the lone runner, the crusader for Justice, deciding
what is right and wrong- (remember how that so nearly backfired
in Judgement?), finally pricked by making the wrong decision.
Not the final redemption in Epiphany, at th end of the
arc where he did stuff wrong. Not his inspirational speech in
Deep Down, or his success with Faith, but a time when he
chose what was just and it really wasn't. Love is sacrifice
after all. Now picturing Angel as Lindsey, the one-hand-bereft.
Excuse me while I wipe away a tear with my plastic hand
Redemption, just rewards, Old Testament posturing, Norse Gods,
Greek Gods. A slow day at voy!
TCH
[> Re: Rhyme without reason (Angel Odyssey 5.3) -- Ann,
18:39:18 10/20/03 Mon
From the beginning to the end it is a beautiful tribute to the
music you make with words. Thank you.
[> Re: Rhyme without reason (Angel Odyssey 5.3) -- sdev,
22:10:56 10/20/03 Mon
Beautiful poem. I especially liked this imagery of Angel's contrasts
physically contained as in a place:
"Angel, the centre, anti-hero, lead
A trochee in an iamb's sole preserve
A leopard striped, an animal unknown,
Keeps all the anger hidden in a well
Rained in by world's half-careless fortitude.
Beneath the visage of the strong, good man
Lies vamp-face, Royce's fear tells us well
Just what the bestial anger might connote.
He claims, in helpfully poetic mode
'It wasn't you- it was the thing inside'
And here lurks Angelus, the shadow man
The distant centre, man on whom is built
Miraculous Xanadu of Angel's life
A Byzantine, baroque world full of stale
Delight, and plural wrongs still searching yet."
I heard notes of Coleridge. The mythic Xanadu place of irreconcilable
conflicts. Is W&H Angel's new pleasure palace? The place where
apocalyptic wars are prophesied? Is this all just Angel's opiate
induced waking dream which recreated Connor's life and wiped other's
memories away? Is the fragmented memory going to be pieced back
together? Which Khan is Angel going to be with his redefinition
of mercy?
Kubla Khan
"But oh! that deep romantic chasm which slanted
Down the green hill athwart a cedarn cover!
A savage place! as holy and enchanted
As e'er beneath a waning moon was haunted
By woman wailing for her demon-lover!
And from this chasm, with ceaseless turmoil seething.
As if this earth in fast thick pants were breathing,
A mighty fountain momently was forced:
Amid whose swift half-intermitted burst
Huge fragments vaulted like rebounding hail,
Or chaffy grain beneath the thresher's flail:
And 'mid these dancing rocks at once and ever
It flung up momently the sacred river.
Five miles meandering with a mazy motion
Through wood and dale the sacred river ran,
Then reached the caverns measureless to man,
And sank in tumult to a lifeless ocean:
And 'mid this tumult Kubla heard from far
Ancestral voices prophesying war!"
[> [> And the ice...(sp 5.3) -- Tchaikovsky, 05:26:22
10/21/03 Tue
An insistent detail in the later part of the poem is the ice in
the dome. Angel's reservedness? The lack of honest emotion in
taking up a job in Wolfram and Hart?
Is the opium-fuelled vision about to fall in on him? We wait with
interest.
TCH
[> rhyme without reason? or the other way around? --
anom, 22:47:06 10/20/03 Mon
I see plenty of reason, not much rhyme. Reason meted out in meter.
And for now, I'll just comment on where you make meter explicit.
(I have more to say, & I hope to get it posted before this fantastic
thread is archived.)
"Angel, the centre, anti-hero, lead
A trochee in an iamb's sole preserve"
"Angel" is indeed a trochee. But this trochee fits just
fine into iambic pentameter (so maybe it's not such a "sole
preserve"), with just the addition of a minimal word, an
article. In a thread below on Buffy in S7, someone (sorry not
to give proper credit, but I don't have time to read through all
the posts again to see who it was) said Buffy went from being
the Slayer to being a Slayer. Angel, though not
by choice either time, has gone from being the vampire
w/a soul to being a vampire w/a soul; either article could
enable him to fit into an iambic world. But he's as uncomfortable
w/one status as w/the other (one of a kind vs. one of two); maybe
it's that trochaic discomfort that keeps his rhythm off (hmm,
it might also account for his lousy dancing!), & accepting--really
accepting--his condition is what it would take to allow him to
get in step w/the world.
[> [> That was Random's post -- sdev, 23:07:25
10/20/03 Mon
Nice riff. I loved that line too.
[> Scintillating stuff! -- Rahael, 03:01:32 10/21/03
Tue
That I will no doubt appreciate even more when I see the episode!
[> [> On its way :-) -- TCH, 05:27:32 10/21/03
Tue
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