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Into the Fire / I am the Spark - Thoughts on *Beneath You* ( Part 1 ) ... (***Spoilers 7.1***) -- OnM, 17:47:49 10/06/02 Sun

*******

Mother teach me to walk again / milk and honey so intoxicating

And into the fire / I'm reunited
Into the fire / I am the spark
Into the fire / I yearn for comfort

Open the doors that lead on into eden / don't want no cheap disguise
I follow the signs marked back to the beginning / No more compromise

I will stare into the sun until its light doesn't blind me
I will walk onto the fire until it's heat doesn't burn me
And I will feed the fire

............ from Into the Fire - by Sarah McLachlan & Pierre Marchand

*******

It's really hard to know for sure just what goes on in someone's head. Are they being clever, deep,
disingenuous, or just painfully obvious? Perhaps all of these at once? And I'm not just talking about Spike,
you know. In the case of the Buffyverse, we bring credit or blame to the creators of the art that we engage
so thoughtfully each week, depending on whether or not we accept not only the basic premise, but the
many and varied extensions that grow from it. As the complexity of the myth becomes greater and greater,
the stories and the references begin to fold back upon another. This can be daunting for the creators and
audience alike.

For example, take the techniques of homages, references made to other creative works that potentially
offer some kind of thematic link to the preceedings, but are not normally a part of said proceedings.

This weeks's episode of Buffy opens with what seems like an obvious homage to the movie
Run, Lola, Run, with a red-haired punky looking young woman running frantically through the
streets of Frankfurt, Germany. If you have seen this film, you will pretty much get the visual reference
immediately, but if you happen to be watching it with a friend who hasn't seen the film, how would
you explain the connection to them? Good question, in this case. While it may be perfectly acceptable just
to drop a certain visual simile into to show that you are 'hip' when it comes to the oeuvre of modern
cinema, we tend to expect more than that from the Jossians. So can I defend the allusion? I think so--
otherwise, I'll just have to let them by on the 'oh well, it was pretty cool' excuse and then note that
to be fair, the minor self-promotion involved in making an homage merely for the sake of 'coolness' would
still only be the lowest point of what otherwise is a nearly flawless episode, one with an ending that is
every bit as powerful and emotionallly wrenching as anything Joss and crew have pulled off during any of
the past seasons. For now, it's benefit-of-the-doubt time:

In the film, the character of Lola is running to save her boyfriend, who owes money to a dangerous person,
and the money has disappeared. Lola has 20 minutes (or thereabouts) to get the money, meet her
boyfriend, and thereby save his life. So, Lola rennt. What sets this story apart from many similar
previous ones is a cinematic trick the director exercises, which is to make Lola's run take place in real
time, but in several different versions, the eventual outcome of which is determined by small, seemingly
random changes in the sequence of events. The film seems to suggest that so much of what happens to us
in the course of our ordinary lives is up to a blindly random fate, and thus our 'free will' hinges only upon
what kinds of decisions we will make after any given instant of that fate has unfolded before us and
delivered a new series of choices for us to consider and act upon.

This seems very bleak-- at any given moment, there may be many different choices we can choose-- how
do you know which is the right one? It's like a maze, and you are running within it, hoping to find the one
correct path that takes you out-- and not just into the next maze.

Leaving the Lolaverse for a moment, it appears to me that in the Buffyverse, the relationship of choice to
fate seems to be balanced in a much different proportion. While the inhabitants of Sunnydale regularly
make choices and sooner or later experience the results, they also seem to exist within a greater, more
mysterious universe that often behaves as if some cosmic chess game is being played out, and what appears
to be the choice of 'free will' is actually the result of the careful consideration of odds by the chess players.
Put another way, if the queen is threatened, will she sacrifice a pawn to protect herself, or try to find a
better winning strategy? That would depend on the larger picture involved, and the ultimate intentions of
the players. Are they to win at any cost, or is there is a greater ideal involeved that takes precedence?

Back in the Lolaverse, we can ask ourselves why does Lola run? Does she fear for her own safety?
Will her boyfriend beat or kill her if she doesn't come through with the money? Is she out to prove to her
father (who intensely dislikes her boyfriend) that she is right about his worth and that he is wrong? No, the
reason is much simpler, which is that Lola loves her boyfriend, and despite his foolishness in becoming
involved with this scheme that is now threatening his very life, she doesn't care. He needs help. She loves
him. She runs. Regardless of the outcome, like Buffy, she has love 'brighter than the fire'. In the film, at
least one of the potential endings is a happy one.

In Beneath You, the unnamed stand-in for Lola isn't as fortunate. She is pursued by the same
mysterious robed figures-- whose faces we still have not seen (btw, conjuring up another filmic reference
to Lord of the Rings, where it also took quite some time before we saw the faces of the dark
riders)-- and is finally caught and promptly killed.

Last week, when discussing my reactions to Lessons, I ventured that the young woman in Istanbul
who was killed in a similar manner may have been a potential Slayer, and that there could be a plan being
enacted to kill off all the Slayers-to-be as a preface to whatever new apocalypse is currently in the works.
This week certainly gave a lot more credence to that posssibilty, since not only were the chase/capture/kill
sequences similar, but this time the woman who lay dying gasped out the words ìFrom beaneath you, it
devours...î with her last breath. We then smash cut to Buffy waking up in her bedroom, Dawn leaning
over her, telling her she was having a bad dream.

Buffy knows otherwise-- her body language, words and facial expression tell us that she understands that
this is real, not a dream, and that it is somehow connected to something very evil that is 'rising'. While the
show has not yet confirmed the 'proto-Slayer' connection of the two deaths, the fact that Buffy has a
vision that reflects the reality of this occurrance clearly establishes a link. We also know that the Watcher's
Council has always possessed some means for determining who the Slayer 'candidates' are, so it is
perfectly reasonable that the forces of evil may have attempted to learn how to determine this also, and
perhaps finally have succeeded in doing so.

The scene where Buffy awakes from the 'vision' continues to show us just how profoundly Buffy has
changed since her early days as the Chosen One, and similarly for the way her younger sister's behavior
has changed since last year. Back in the first episode of season one, the show opened with a scene of a
vampire making a kill, followed by a cut to Buffy awaking from a deeply disturbing prophetic dream. As
she is startled awake, she is shaky, unsure and upset, and tries to cover for this fact when her mother tells
her to hurry up and not to be late for school.

Now, six years later and after quite a lot of 'embracing the pain' has gone by, Buffy may be saddened or
wary of the vision she awakes from, but she is also now willingly accepting of her calling, and sees a
purpose in her life. She walks to the window, pulls the curtain to the side and looks outward, rather than
wanting to stay in bed and avoid going out into the world ('school').

I feel the need to comment on yet another one of those marvelous visual subtleties that the creative staff
placed in front of us in this scene. When Buffy moves over to the window of her bedroom and looks out
towards the street, the camera soon switches to a reverse angle, and we see her face, framed in light that
illuminates her eyes, which in turn are framed by darker bands of shadow, logically placed by the stiles
between the window panes. Granted that is it a standard cinematic convention to keep some light upon a
character's eyes while the rest of them is in shadow, do a freeze frame or two here and study the effect it
produces in this shot.

Dawn moves up alongside of her sister, slightly behind her, and while the effect is more subtle, light also
frames her face and eyes in a very particular fashion. The light around Buffy's eyes suggests a mask, while
the light around Dawn's eyes tends to emphasise a more open gaze. There are a couple of interpretations
one could make of this effect, but like with the 'stone angel wings' of last year, it's just too perfectly
realized to be an accident. Possibly, the suggestion of a 'mask' is to imply that while in some regards Buffy
may see clearly, there are still some things that are hidden to her. Or it might suggest that she is the one
who is hiding some things from the world, which could also tie in with the Batman references dropped later
on in the show. (See the second Tim Burton-helmed Batman movie, Batman Returns, for additional
thoughts on secret identities and Batman's intriguing relationships with 'dangerous women').

The look that the light and shadow achieves for Dawn's face is more open, more 'unmasked' as it were.
She is physically standing behind Buffy, but the changes in the light pattern suggest that the past may not
be precedent, that she may not need to wear 'the mask' (of hiding her 'real' nature, of being drafted into
her calling rather than choosing it freely, or simply of her sister's fears) that Buffy has always been forced
to. Another possibility could be to show that Dawn has integrated or will integrate her light/dark
characteristics in a better way than Buffy historically has, and so achieve her potential with less of the
intervening suffering. This fits in with the traditional goal of the parent making a 'better life' for their child.
Whatever the case, the fact that some carefully chosen physical positioning on a set and some equally
thoughtfully positioned lighting fixtures can suggest so much within just a few seconds appearance on your
TV screen is remarkable. No matter what occasional errors in judgement or execution the artists behind
this show have inevitably ever made over the past years, little perfect moments like this keep illustrating
why BtVS is still the best of the best in TV-land.

As the two Summers' women look out the window, we hear a rumbling noise and then see a visual effect
that shows something very large apparently tunneling just under the surface of the ground outside,
althought not in view of Buffy and Dawn. (Still another movie reference, to Tremors this time
around!) Is this the subject of the 'devours from underneath' line? For the duration of this episode, it is, but
it also quickly becomes clear that this particular evil is only a 'little bad' and as it turns out, this 'little bad'
isn't even a traditional monster anyway. So again, we are 'back to the beginning'... but not quite.

The next scene takes place the following morning, where we see Buffy, Xander and Dawn driving to (the
new) Sunnydale High in Xander's (new) car. Once again I notice that Buffy seems perfectly happy not to
be 'driving' in this instance. Why doesn't Buffy drive? Is this meant to reflect that Buffy wants at least
some period of the day when she isn't responsible for everything? Oh well, that's a whole 'nother
discussion! ;-)

Dawn is happy that Buffy will be coming to school to work in her new counselors's job, but then of course
quickly cautions her sister that she 'can't hang out with any of my friends, etc'. This was a funny and very
realistic line. Xander continues illustrating his 'big brother' relationship to Buffy by praising her, saying
how reassuring it was to know she was looking out for him (and by implied extension, the other students)
when he was in high school. As the conversation rolls on, Buffy suggests indirectly that all may not be over
between Xander and Anya. Dawn suggests that the two of them (Buffy and Xander) should stay away from
the demon-dating thing, but Buffy reminds Dawn about the vamp boyfriend from last Halloween. Dawn is
slightly miffed, and sighs, but it's not an angry sigh, more like an 'Oh, jeez, am I doomed to be like
these guys too?'

Buffy meets with Principal Wood, who encourages her in regard to the start of her new job, saying that she
is young and 'not stuffy' and should be able to relate to the students. It still wonders me whether or not he
knows more about the 'real' Buffy than he is letting on. Is is possible he is a 'plant' from the Watcher's
Council? And if so, is he going to be Buffy friendly, or not? Is it actually conceivable that the Council
might have finally gotten it through their thick collective heads that Buffy might keep on succeeding in
saving the world because her 'new' way of doing things actually works? Is this now a 'watch and wait and
learn' tactic, whereby they mean to study her now, rather than trying to put her under their thumb? This
would be a welcome change IMO, but of course at this point in time with only two eps movement into the
season is just rampant speculation.

The principle leaves after making another one of his 'bad jokes' (there was the 'deadening young minds'
joke from last week). He's a little disconcerted when he finds that Buffy knows what a bastinada is, and
recovers by saying that 'she'll fit in just fine here'. If only he knew-- but then, maybe he does.

Buffy goes to the school basement to seek out Spike, but he isn't there. Then the door to his 'room' makes
a noise like he was in hiding and just slipped out when she wasn't looking. Buffy presumably goes back to
her duties at the school, which we don't see.

It is now evening and a woman, whom we later learn is named Nancy is out walking her dog, a little
Yorkie who is named Rocky (no irony there eh?). After watching the show a second time, I started to
wonder if the dog originally belonged to Nancy's boyfriend Ronnie, and she ended up taking care of him
when Ronnie 'left'. There is no prior rumbling noise, but the ground opens up (offscreen) and Rocky gets
pulled below. Then Nancy, who is still holding his leash, and has just realized that something is very wrong,
gets violently pulled down and dragged over to the hole that her dog just disappeared into. A monster of
some kind rises up through the hole but we don't get to see it yet, only Nancy's terrified reaction to it. She
runs away in a panic and then into Xander, who calmly greets her.

We cut to a scene set in the Summers' living room with Buffy, Dawn, Xander and Nancy. Buffy is
apparently administering some first aid to Nancy's injured hand (where she held the leash) . When Nancy
tells her story of the monster, she obviously expects to be told that she is crazy, but instead finds that these
strangers seem to totally accept her account, and don't even try to suggest that it wasn't true. Even more
amazingly, they offer to help her.

This lack of concealment of the existence of the Scooby Gang and its members is a significant change from
past interactions with Sunnydale 'normals', although there was foreshadowing for it during season six,
such as the events of Buffy's birthday party or Anya's wedding. Buffy and the gang no longer seem to be
pretending for the 'benefit' of the Sunnydale populace at large that monsters or other strange creatures
don't roam the environs. Buffy in particular seems to have abandoned the practice of closely guarding her
'secret identity'. This new openness appears several times during the course of the episode; for example
later on in the Bronze during the confrontation with Anya. Has Buffy just decided that the Slayer secret ID
thing is ultimately stupid or pointless? Does she now think that it no longer matters if the 'normal' denizens
of SunnyD find out what is really going on in their town? Perhaps this is another case of Buffy 'knowing
without knowing', as she has done in the past. It is rumored (and very likely, given the progression of
villiany over the past six seasons, aligned with the distinct possibility that this could be the show's last
season) that this year's apocalypse will be the biggest and most universally dangerous ever. Buffy may not
be able to triumph without enlisting the assistance of the population of Sunnydale, much as she did with her
high school senior class in *Graduation*. So, she could be abandoning her secret identity as a prelude to
this eventuality, without consciously planning it at the moment.

While they are debating what to do next, (with the noted acknowledgement to Willow and Giles' absence,
Xander's comment 'We are the gang') Spike silently appears, and one and all turn to stare at him.
Nancy looks puzzled, Dawn and Xander look shocked and not at all happy, Buffy seems only slightly
surprised, and more so at the new clothing and non-mentally-ill behavior as compared to the last time when
she saw Spike. Dawn and Xander are both even more unhappy to discover that Buffy has hidden--or at
least passively not mentioned-- the fact of previously meeting Spike in the school basement, but Buffy
doesn't act overly repentant, and quietly but firmly assures the two that she'll discuss her reasons later
(possibly after she understands them herself, I found myself thinking).

Spike and Buffy talk, Spike offers his assistance, and Buffy is very cautious but doesn't turn it down. She
instructs Xander to take Nancy home, while she and Spike will go out to check on the 'monster'. Xander is
very upset that Buffy is apparently trusting Spike, and finally mentions the subject on everyone's mind, but
not yet openly spoken about-- the attempted rape from last season. Buffy assures Xander that 'I stopped
him then, I can stop him again'. He very reluctantly allows the plan to go forward, and leaves with Nancy.

This is one of the things that I have always admired the most about Buffy, which is her willingness to
embrace change when it's necessary and move on, rather than endlessly dwell on the past. Granted, it
sometimes takes her quite a while to get to this point, which is indeed only being realistic, but she
always does. Both Xander and Dawn are obviously far more upset about what Spike attempted to do
to Buffy than Buffy is. She hasn't forgiven him, but it is important to keep in mind that Buffy has
always understood at some core level that Spike was always the 'serial killer in jail', and
not a 'reformed evildoer'. She knew that he was capable of good deeds, but she also has always
known that he was still fully capable of evil, and that the chip was only a sort of leash, or perhaps the bars
of the jail cell. Her willingness to place herself in a position where he had power over her (the sexual
relations) had far more to do with her fears that she had become 'different'-- i.e., somehow infected by evil
or darkness-- than a belief that he had become 'a good man'. It didn't really matter at the time if he killed
her, because to her subconscious fears, it was proof that she deserved to die.

The situation is different with Dawn and Xander. Dawn in particular came to feel that Spike had really
become a different person, and was no longer really an evil vampire. She saw the chip as being a
technological replacement for Spike's missing soul, and began to act accordingly, as if he was now 'cured'
of evil behavior. And, in all fairness, Spike's behavior was certainly at his most objectively selfless when he
was looking after Dawn's welfare. Dawn saw Spike as a kind of father-figure/strong protector-- he loved
her sister, who is now also a mother-figure to her. Having Spike rape Buffy would be very much like
having Hank rape Joyce.

So the personal betrayal involved for Dawn is extremely, almost unbearably painful. She saw Spike weep
openly over Buffy's death, it is beyond belief for her to envision this same person attempting such a horrific
violation. But there it is, and she has to deal with it. Dawn has good reason to suddenly appear to Spike as
being 'unbelievably scary', and Spike has good reason to take her threat very seriously-- you will have
noticed that he didn't try to make a smart remark in response or try to pretend innocence.

Xander has never really liked Spike, for a variety of reasons. While Xander always tended to suspect that
Spike's 'good deeds' were simply a means to get him whatever he happened to want at the moment, there
is now a more destructive thought which he cannot completely push from his mind. To Xander, Spike has
somehow irrevocably soiled the absolute moral purity that he has always considered his hero Buffy to
possess. While he accepts intellectually that Buffy sexual relations were consensual, and that she
engaged in them out of depression and desperation and not because she lost her moral cneter, it still
doesn't help much. Somehow, he just feels in his guts that it has to be Spike's fault and that the attempted
rape is the proof of this. Much of season six was about Buffy trying to integrate the dark parts of her
nature rather than trying to push them away, something which she now appears to have done. To the 'old'
Xander, Buffy shouldn't have dark parts, because to him it would mean she becomes less of a heroic
figure. He is starting to learn otherwise, that she is really the same Buffy he has always known, respected
and loved, but it is taking him a while to do so. Again, this is only realistic, a couple of months is not long
enough to change one's world-view this radically.

Returning to the story, Buffy and Spike go out to check the place where Nancy confronted the
worm-monster. She is still wary of Spike, but at the same time is equally baffled by what is obviously some
kind of change in him. She confronts him with this as they examine the damage left by the worm-monster,
and he admits to being different, but won't tell her the reason. I had to admire the balancing act that
Marsters brings to the role of Spike throughout this episode. He has been faced with essentially
re-inventing a portrayal that he has carefully crafted (with the assistance of the writers, of course) over the
course of several years, and needs to keep the new Spike from losing complete touch with the old despite
the demands of trying to integrate what by my count is at least three new 'personas' into the mix. I'll talk
about this a bit more later on.

What I would like to mention about the part of the scene that seems to have triggered a fair amount of
discussion is something that I really don't know is an accident or not. When Buffy goes to hold the
flashlight, she momentarily touches Spike's hand and immediately gets a nasty flashback to the attempted
rape. While I normally tend to avoid the board during the composition of these essays, I did notice a
number of posters wondering why this particular touch would have such a profoundly negative effect-- she
did touch Spike before this, in the basement of the school, and no flashback occurred. Why now? There
are a few good reasons, and some of them have already been discussed. Perhaps by now (this is Sunday the
6th as I write this) someone else has discovered this, but just in case...

If you have the closed captioning turned on when you watch this scene, you will see the words ìMAKE
IT... FEEL ITî appear on the screen just after Buffy touches Spike's hand. I have listened very carefully
several times, and cannot hear anyone-- Spike, a 'phantom voice', anyone-- actually speak these
words aloud. The words ('Make it, not her-- Spike would have said 'her' or 'you') and the
timing of them strongly suggest that this is what Spike hears in his mind as Buffy touches him, and that this
'attack' on Buffy is an action by the 'First Evil' or whatever else is 'possessing' Spike along with his other
multiple personalities.

Why there wouldn't be a voiceover, I don't know-- perhaps there was and the director or Joss thought it
gave too much away. If so, the line could have been deleted, and the captioning was accidently never
changed. Or, it could have been left as something for the more obsessive of the fans (certainly not
me, oh, no... ) to think too much about. As Earl would say, take it and run, if you haven't already.

[> Into the Fire / I am the Spark - Thoughts on *Beneath You* ( Part 2 ) ... (***Spoilers 7.1***) -- OnM, 17:55:25 10/06/02 Sun

Meanwhile, Xander finds out that Anya may be involved in some vengeance work that relates to Nancy's
'psycho' ex-boyfriend, Ronnie. He rounds up the gang and they go to the Bronze to confront Anya, who
admits doing the spell to change Ronnie into a worm, except 'it's the same phylum, I just embellished a
bit'. Xander and Buffy want Anya to reverse the spell, which she refuses to do, citing 'vengeance
demon codes of conduct' and the like, and that there would be serious repercussions from her guild and/or
D'Hoffryn if she did so. Spike tries to coerce Anya into reversing the spell, and she suddenly realizes that
he has gotten his soul back. Spike panics, not wanting to have this revealed, and the emotion apparently
triggers the nastiest of his multiple selves to emerge, the vampire demon itself, bereft of any of the more
human sides of Spike.

I have to admit that the violence on the show rarely 'shocks' me, because a part of my head always knows
that this is a fantasy, and not reality. I confess, though, that when Spike suddenly punches Anya I was
taken aback, and I suspect many other viewers were also. After a few seconds, I remembered that he
actually punched Anyanka, a demon, and began to appreciate the clever thing that ME exploited
here.

We no longer see Anya as a demon, even though at the moment she is one. If Spike slammed another
vampire this viciously, no one watching would bat an eye. But seeing him strike the human-appearing Anya
is profoundly disturbing, even though ten seconds later Anya is in demon face, seemingly unharmed, and
about to royally kick some vampire ass.


*******

Buffy: Anya, that thing you created burst through solid pavement, and ate her dog!

Anya: (suddenly looks genuinely forlorn): Oooo, puppy!

Xander: Wait, that gets your sad face? People's lives are in danger and you give it up for the
Yorkie?

Anya: That's the trouble, Xander. You never understood me.

*******

Buffy joins the fray, and starts fighting with Spike. I noticed that the makeup department took pains to
make his demonic visage particularly unpleasant, clearly pointing out the extreme nature of this particular
personality. This visual cue is backed up by a very Angelus-like taunt from DemonSpike, when he forces
Buffy to recall their 'tryst' up on the balcony, when he tried to convince her that she was a 'creature of the
dark', like him. Of course, this isn't the old, confused, season six Buffy, so she just becomes angrier and
smacks him even harder. The fight gets broken off when Xander tells Buffy that Nancy has run off, and
that alone, she's 'worm bait'. Buffy, in yet another one of those rapid, seamless priority shifts she seems to
have mastered so perfectly since last year, immediately stops fighting with Spike and runs off to look after
Nancy. Interestingly, the transition seems to have triggered another change in Spike's assortment of mental
inhabitants, since after jibing Buffy about doing a Batman number, he apparently takes off after her, to fight
at her side once again.

Buffy saves Nancy from the worm attack (in a very Batman-like fashion, I might add), but the worm comes
after her instead. Just as she readies herself to fight it, Spike grabs a metal bar and attacks the creature.
JUst as he plunges the bar at the worm, it morphs back into a human form. Anya has obviously reversed
the spell, and Ronnie end up getting his shoulder impaled. Spike (who was DemonSpike in the Bronze, and
is now apparently EvilSpike, is startled by the transformation and then screams as the chip kicks in. Buffy
goes to aid Ronnie, who has fainted from pain and shock and is lying naked on the dirty pavement.

Spike now begins to unravel, shifting from EvilSpike to William to GoodSpike to PossessedSpike and back
to GoodSpike again. (I think-- Marsters bleeds the one personality into the others so deftly that it's a
challenge keeping up). Buffy is angry, but at the same time clearly conflicted-- Spike has never behaved
this way before, not ever, and something is very obviously seriously wrong with him. Finally, he appears to
turn into either William or some blend of William and GoodSpike, and runs off, weeping.

Anya and Xander appear. Buffy gives Xander her cell phone and goes after Spike, telling Xander to look
after Ronnie until the ambulance arrives. Anya looks very sad at seeing the unconscious, wounded Ronnie
on the ground, covered in a old blanket Buffy took from a trash can. Nancy is very angry and speaks
scornfully to Anya, accusing her of causing 'all this'. It is plain to Anya that Nancy wanted revenge, but
that she considers the actuality beyond the pale-- 'psycho' or not, her ex didn't deserve this. Nancy stalks
off, leaving Anya even more depressed. Xander tries to reassure her, that what she did was right, and that
it took guts.

This is true. We don't know for sure what D'Hoffryn's reaction to the spell-canceling will be, but Anya
implies that it won't be pretty, and considering what demons typically feel are acceptable levels of
punishment, Anya could truly be in for some very serious hurt. I don't think Xander fully understands this,
although I don't know if it would change his mind about anything. It will be interesting to see what he does
if indeed Anya is made to suffer for her 'mistake'. It is plainly obvious despite his comments to Nancy that
he still loves Anya a great deal. At one time, (during the episode with Olaf the Troll) when asked to chose
suffering rather than allow harm to come to either Willow or Anya, he chose to suffer, and did so. I doubt
he would do any different today, despite being 'estranged' from his 'ex'.

Anya's journey from demon to human has been long and trying for her. At the time of her wedding, she
appeared ready to accept her new humanity, and embrace at least the bulk of human morality. Xander's
leaving her at the altar triggered a desire to return to the demon heritage where she was powerful, feared,
and essentially immune to emotional pain. But it is very apparent that much of this is a sham to convince
herself that she hasn't changed, when in fact she has. Anya is now as much or more human than demon,
and cannot escape feeling hurt as humans do. As such, vengeance is no longer a just 'a job', one without
concerns for the appropriateness of the punishment or regards for the 'collateral damge' that can occur.
The seemingly throwaway funny line, 'Oooo, puppy!' really sums up the whole situation in two words.
Anya has a conscience now, and like the personality split that has plagued Spike for several years, she will
have to make a decision, as he did, to go one way or the other. It is significant that just at this moment in
time, when Anya will be called upon to choose the path of demon or human, right there in front of her is
Spike, who made the sme crucial choice and whose life is now even more dissociative and fragmented.

Anya's 'mistake' was to have the 'misfortune' to align herself with a bunch of people who were willing to
let bygones be bygones as long as she didn't massacre anyone else in future. Anya has even had to suffer
the pain of seeing a man who betrayed her and hurt her badly go on to save her and the rest of the world,
something that would not have happened if her original plan to destroy him or make him suffer some
hideous torment had actually come to pass. Right now, she finds herself caught between the desire to
be what she once was and happily wreaking vengeance, and the unpleasant newfound awareness that the
suffering it causes doesn't really make anything better, it just brings a transient emotional satisfaction.

This is a great developement of a story arc that been running quietly in the background for most of the last
several years, and that I suspect will finally be resolved this year. I'm certainly looking forward to the next
few weeks for this story alone!

Ah, but then, as we began, we come back to running, and alternate possibilities, and Buffy, and Spike.

The evidence of a mental breakdown that resulted from the 're-ensoulment' that was strongly hinted at in
Lessons has now been strongly confirmed in Beneath You. There are obviously no longer
just 'two' Spikes, but several-- at least five by my count, and then there is the mysterious 'possession'
entity, or the First Evil, or whatever the hell it is. This is my take:

You have DemonSpike, EvilSpike, GoodSpike, HumanSpike, William, and The Possession.

DemonSpike is nearly pure vampire, and we saw him come out in the scene at the Bronze where Spike hit
Anya and taunted Buffy about their sexual liasons. EvilSpike is the one who was attacking the worm
creature, with just a hint of GoodSpike keeping a tiny level of control. Either of these two could kill
Buffy if they wanted to, an important consideration to keep in mind after seeing the ending of the
show, and understandably wondering what Buffy will do next.

GoodSpike is the one who emerges after EvilSPike stabs Ronnie. He quickly morphs into William, who in
turnt gets taken over by The Possession. Then GoodSpike returns. Finally, William runs off to the church
that is the setting for the final scene.

We now arrive at what is simply an incredible piece of work, there is just no other way to put it. As good
as the first 40 minutes of the show was, this was another one of those scenes that will be talked about
indefinitely in the future study of the Buffyverse, much like the last scene of Fool for Love, or *The
Gift*, or Becoming Pt. II. Marsters and Gellar were perfect, there was not one single false move or
moment. The cinematography was flawless, as was the editing and sound work. I've viewed this scene at
least seven times by now, and each time I am still crying by the end of it, every damn time. Curse this show
and the genius it rode in on!

OK, not really, Curse it I mean. This is the kind of stuff I point to with pride when anyone might seek to
dismiss this work as a 'kid's show'.

I don't know if you can really 'analyze' this scene. It's a largely emotional moment, and it's so much more
than just the words that are written or the acting that is portrayed by Marsters and Gellar. There's a
synergy in the lighting, the style, the beauty of the prose that is recited. I did notice that there was a
significant similarity between the medallion that Buffy was wearing around her neck, and the unusual shape
of the cross that Spike drapes himself upon before the cut to black and the end credits. Is the cross God? Is
the cross Buffy (my vote)? Does he burn because she is 'brighter than the fire'? Is the 'rest' that Spike
seems to long for death or love? (Back to Once More With Feeling, and Spike's lament, 'Rest in
Peace'.)

Contrasting to the DemonSpike that appeared just a short time before in the Bronze, was that pure
William, looking entirely, wearily human and not even slightly demonic in the shot where he comes out of
the dark and is framed to the left in the blue light, with Buffy on the right?

The admonition ìBuffy, shame...î when she asks why he would seek to have his soul returned. The pathos
of 'do what one must.. to be a man... a man who would never...î and then leaves the ending hang, unable
to even voice his horror at the thought. The look of abject pity on her face at the last as he drapes himself
on the cross. Whew...

My only fear is that having set the bar so high, nothing else this this season will ever equal the intensity of
this short five minutes. If they do... oh, wow.

Last week, I had wondered if the revelation of Spike's ensoulment would parallel the reveleation of Buffy's
return from heaven by being structured to take place at the end of the third episode. While that parallel
didn't happen, I would note that the intensity and importance of this last scene did elegantly mirror the
scene at the end of Bargaining Pt. II with Buffy and Dawn up on the tower, with Buffy bereft of Heaven,
and considering that here new existance might be hell, or some similar punishment. Spike is now in a
similar kind of hell, and must try to work his way back to the 'light' of spiritual integration and purpose as
Buffy did.

I have the suspicion that Spike's new journey may every bit as complex as that arc, but for different
reasons. In Buffy's case, we tended to assume that Buffy would eventually triumph over her 'demons' and
find her way back to mental health, because we knew all along that she had the strength, and the moral
center, if only she could find it. Spike, however, could go either way. The battle for him could be more
difficult than for Buffy, or less so-- depending on whether he wishes to become more human, or more
demon. He no longer has the 'excuse' that he doesn't have a soul, but the soul is not a guarantee that he
won't give in to evil. It really isn't just for the sake of Buffyverse historical continuity that Warren-- an
evil, souled human-- was the first of the 'big bads' to manifest itself before Spike's tortured mind in
Lessons.

Will Spike have a 'Joyce' to make him 'Normal Again', and just what will that 'normal' be, if so?

Oh, my. This is so cool. I bow down most humbly to the creators of last season, for providing the
wonderful background setup for what could easily become the most fascinating and engrossing season of
BtVS ever. Yes, it's early, but with this much evidence of care on the part of ME, I'd say the signs are
pretty good. I'm going to finish up with a few minor notes that didn't fit in with the overall flow of the
essay, and then I'm outa here until next week. See ya!

*******

Is Spike just continuing his removal of the 'ineffective costume' when he starts to remove his pants, and
Buffy doesn't understand this, and reacts to his words of 'service the girl' when he wasn't actually
intending to do so?

The blue light in the church scene mirrors the blue light in the Bronze in The Harvest when Buffy
first defeats the plans of the Master. In this case, though, there is no 'warrior stare' on her face-- quite the
opposite expression. Was this an intentional counterpoint to SlayerBuffy vs. HumanBuffy?

The church looks rather 'fundamentalist', with very plain pews and sparse furnishings. A reference to that
'Old Time Religion', fire and brimstone, etc?

What were the other times that churches played a role in an episode? 1) The dream where Buffy marries
Angel and steps outside the church, bursting into flames. 2) The church that the Master lived in, the one
buried in an earthquake. 3) The Faith/Buffy body switch. I know there must be others. Ideas?

Will Nancy return, or is she a one shot character?

In the teaser, Spike is in the basement, speaking to and/or trying to sneak up on a rat. In the early days of
the show, we heard that Angel was surviving by feeding on rats during his own 'psychotic' pahase, before
Whistler introduced him to Buffy. Buffy eventually 'saves' Angel when he returns from 'hell'. Will she do
the same to Spike?

The dog-god reference appears again. The dog (god) gets pulled below-- more evidence that either the
First Evil or some similar entitiy is going to be the ultimate big bad-- it doesn't fear even God, and pulls
'him' 'down beneath'.

The dog's name was 'Rocky'. Another movie reference? We know 'the champ' ultimately came out ahead,
so does this mean that God (and of course Buffy) will ultimately succeed?

(Nah, that last one's a gimmee!)

*******

As you undoubably noticed, I started this week's 'thoughts' with some lines from a Sarah McLachlan tune.
While researching some potential quotage/song stuff for this essay, I came across some startling Sarah
McLachlan songs that appear to have substantial Buffyverse resonances. Is ME secretly populated by
Sarah minions?? Google for yourself... here's a couple to get you pondering:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wait - Sarah McLachlan

Under a blackened sky / far beyond the glaring streetlights
sleeping on empty dreams / the vultures lie in wait

You lay down beside me then
you were with me every waking hour
so close I could feel your breath

When all we wanted was the dream / to have and to hold that precious little thing
like every generation yields / the new born hope unjaded by the years

Pressed up against the glass / I found myself wanting sympathy
but to be consumed again / oh I know would be the death of me

And there is a love that's inherently given / a kind of blindness offered to deceive
and in that light of forbidden joy / oh I know I won't receive it

When all we wanted was the dream...

You know if I leave you now / it doesn't mean I love you any less
its just the state I'm in / I can't be good to anyone else like this

When all we wanted was the dream...

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Building A Mystery - Sarah McLachlan & Pierre Marchand

You come out at night / that's when the energy comes
and the dark side's light / and the vampires roam

You're so beautiful / with an edge and charm
and so careful / when I'm in your arms

'Cause you're working / building a mystery
holding on and holding it in / yeah you're working
building a mystery / and choosing so carefully

You woke up screaming aloud / a prayer from your secret god
you feed off our fears / and hold back your tears

You're a beautiful / a beautiful f*ked up man
you're setting up your / razor wire shrine

----------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> Very lovely, even though your spoilers were more for 7.2. -- HonorH, 20:26:26 10/06/02 Sun

I greatly enjoyed your treatise, OnM. Here's an additional question for you:

Do you think the ending of this ep might be a deliberate echo back to the episode "Angel"? In it, Angel stands in the shadows and tells Buffy about his soul, and ends up scorched by a cross--and not appearing to mind it.

[> [> [> Hmmm so what does ....... -- Rufus, 20:28:24 10/06/02 Sun

The difference in the size of the crosses mean???????;)

[> [> [> Duh-uh! Yes, old age in action. Try to avoid it if you can. Uhh, no, wait a minute... -- OnM, 21:01:20 10/06/02 Sun

OK, live long and prosper, always go with the classic!

;-)

Good call on the Angel tie-in, although as I remember the cross was around Buffy's neck, and it burned him as she pressed against him, so again, Spike's story will be different.

Glad you enjoyed, 'twas a long ramble this week. Got it posted just barely in time to catch the Angel premiere. Expect things will get busy on the board this week!

[> [> I reposted you over at the Trollop Board -- Rufus, 20:26:29 10/06/02 Sun

That way the people who don't come here at all can enjoy, and continue to reply long after this gets archived.

Part one

Part two

[> [> [> Why thank you kindly! :-) You are a gentlewoman and a scholar, -- OnM, 21:12:01 10/06/02 Sun

and your generosity and good taste is outweighed only by your pleasing personality and fondness for cats.

(~meow~)

:-)

[> [> OnM, once more I'm dumbstruck by your brilliance. (7.1, 7.2 and future casting spoiler) -- Rob, 21:36:43 10/06/02 Sun

Not meaning to kiss up or anything. But wow! I've been e-mailing your essays to friends, and everybody loves them. In fact, I wish your essays could come out the second after the episodes originally air, because I always want to know right away what you thought about them!

There's so much I want to respond to, and it's too late at night for me to do that. I do want to say though that once again even the most minor details on "Buffy" are absolutely brilliant. The dog/god reference from the last episode, coupled with Buffy's lie about the dogs being killed, and then a dog actually being killed in this episode. And that perfectly ties in to Willow's "everything is connected" discovery. The writers are certainly evil, because planting that thought is going to lead to more dissection and critical analysis of the smallest plot points than ever before! And I can't wait to find more connections as the weeks progress.

I have never looked forward to the progression of a season more than this one. At the same time, of course, I want it to go slowly so it won't be over too quickly. And I agree with you. If this season keeps up the level of quality it is now, I could very well see it being "Buffy"'s finest. With all these thoughts of the possibility of a First Evil return, and the "back to the beginning"/apocalypse theme, tied in with the reports of Faith's return, I could easily see the entire story going full-circle this year, and having unanswered questions regarding Slayer mythology finally resolved. The possibilities this year are endless, and that's so exciting to me. I can just feel all the wheels turning and all the loose plot threads from the past six years being tied together into a huge cohesive symphonic fireworks spectacular! ("You got another metaphor you could add to that little mix?")

Is it next Tuesday yet?

Rob

[> [> [> casting spoiler's in Rob's post above -- os, 22:59:38 10/06/02 Sun

[> [> [> [> I wrote that in my subject line. ;o) -- Rob, 07:57:42 10/07/02 Mon

[> [> I bow down before your review! -- ponygirl, 07:36:13 10/07/02 Mon

That was so lovely, OnM! Nothing to add except one final Sarah McLachlan song, one that I always thought of as the goal Buffy is always working towards.

Fumbling Towards Ecstasy

All the fear has left me now
I'm not frightened anymore.
It's my heart that pounds beneath my flesh.
it's my mouth that pushes out this breath

and if I shed a tear I won't cage it.
I won't fear love
and if I feel a rage I won't deny it.
I won't fear love.

Companion to our demons
they will dance and we will play.
With chairs candles and clothes
making darkness in the day.
It will be easy to look in or out
upstream or down
without a thought

and if I shed a tear I won't cage it.
I won't fear love
and if I feel a rage I won't deny it.
I won't fear love.

Peace in the struggle to find peace.
Comfort on the way to comfort

and if I shed a tear I won't cage it.
I won't fear love
and if I feel a rage I won't deny it
I won't fear love.
I won't fear love.
I won't fear love...

[> [> more on dog imagery -- verdantheart, 08:53:52 10/07/02 Mon

Enjoyed your review, as always!

Do you suppose the god/dog imagery will at all be linked to the dog imagery that has always surrounded Spike:

He sports a typical dog's name
He's called himself "love's bitch"
"Crush" was full of it: Drusilla tells him "You're my bad dog and you bite," whereas Harmony says "You're the dog ... who needs to be put down."
They constantly refer to the chip in his head as a "leash"

That's just off the top of my head. Can't wait to see where all this caninery goes!

[> [> [> Wow, vh...Much KABOOMAGE for such a small post! -- Rob, 08:58:56 10/07/02 Mon

[> [> [> well, the very 1st time we meet spike... -- anom, 23:35:47 10/07/02 Mon

...Angel-faking-Angelus tells him he gave the Slayer "the puppy dog 'I'm all tortured' act" (School Hard). Spike ends up punching Angel & calling him an "Uncle Tom." So...as vh just showed us, who's the dog now?

I remembered this differently before I checked it--thought Angel says he's got the Slayer following him around like a little puppy dog. That would've made it more ironic that Spike became the one following *her* around (although he didn't heel very well).

[> [> Outstanding (Spoilers through 7.2) -- Sophist, 09:01:30 10/07/02 Mon

Lots of great points you made. I thought the last scene was absolutely brilliant, equal to, if not better than, the scene of Giles discovering Jenny's body in Passion.

There were, however, 3 points in the episode which seemed off to me. I'm interested in your take on them:

1. When Buffy goes into the school basement, we see the door close, she calls to Spike, and then the next scene is in England with Giles and Willow. We never return to the basement. This transition struck me as awkward.

2. Like you, I was surprised at the openness of the SG in the Bronze. They made no effort to conceal either the dispute or the non-human characters. Oddly, no one at the Bronze stepped in when Spike (then still human) punched Anya (seemingly human). Sunnydale isn't NY City; the choice of the Bronze for this scene struck me as peculiar. Perhaps you're right about Buffy no longer going along with the repression of evil occurrences.

3. You didn't discuss Anya's (to me) strange reaction when Spike first touched her. Her reference to their tryst in Entropy struck me as very unlikely -- Spike's touch was in no way sexual -- and it was the trigger for all that followed. Couldn't the dialogue have been a little more plausible here?

Lastly, the Giles/Willow arc seems deliberately underplayed, probably to set up more later. Any thoughts here?

Thanks.

[> [> [> About the Fight in the Bronze and Secret Identities -- Finn Mac Cool, 20:24:56 10/07/02 Mon

People keep speculating that the Buffy/Spike/Anya fight in the Bronze means that Buffy may be deciding that keeping a secret identity isn't important, since it's such a public place. And, if Buffy had started the fight, you'd have a point. But she didn't. She merely joined a fight already started by two demons. Besides, a duke out with demons isn't exactly unusual for the Bronze. It was taken hostage by vampires in "Welcome to the Hellmouth" and "Dopplegangland", and some damage was wreaked to it by the Oz-wolf in "Phases" and Olaf in "Triangle", plus there was Warren's display of bravado (and magic orbs *snicker*) in "Seeing Red". Fights and rampant destruction at he Bronze are almost annual events. About the people not interfering: Spike's first punch came too suddenly for a response, and after that the demonic visages would ward off any potential attempts to stop the festivities.

[> [> [> [> Re: About the Fight in the Bronze and Secret Identities -- Rob, 22:50:26 10/07/02 Mon

I agree mostly about what you said. I agree with OnM that being more "open" about the demons is a theme that keeps repeating over the past two episodes. At the same time, however, I do not find the demon fight in the middle of the Bronze shocking. As you said, demon fights have almost become a staple at the Bronze. And not just demon stuff...How about Willow and Amy's magic free-for-all last year in "Smashed"? Also, the fact that Nancy had mentioned "the stories about Sunnydale." No, the demony activity is not secret anymore, although one assumes that most people don't believe it, and that they're just weird local legends and rumors. Who knows? When a Sunnydaler sees a demon now, it's possible that he or she might believe it to be someone dressed up, trying to capitalize on the Sunnydale myths, kind of like the fake Bigfoot pictures people take.

Rob

[> [> [> [> [> how open is sunnydale's secret? -- anom, 21:09:34 10/08/02 Tue

I've been wondering this for a while: How come it's not all out in the open after Graduation Day? The entire graduating class was let in on the true situation & enlisted in the fight. We saw no indication that there was a coverup afterwards. (How could a destroyed high school containing mayor meat [BTW, who cleaned that out before they started construction on the new school? what did they think it was?] be covered up anyway?) The survivors must remember what happened. So did they think it was over & life was back to normal--real normal, not what passes for it in Sunnydale? Why doesn't everyone know now?

Great analysis, OnM--wish I had time to do more than comment around the edges!

[> [> Good review - but about the church... -- Caroline, 09:39:04 10/07/02 Mon

Just one small point about the church. The church appears to me to look very much like an eastern Christian church. When Buffy walks in, the camera pans over what looks very much like an icon painted by Orthodox monks. The fact that the decor is very sparse is also in keeping with older Orthodox churches. And the placement of the cross that Spike drapes over himself is accurate, although the size is somewhat large for such a small church. Buffy is also wearing a style of cross that is more common in the east. While definitely being a reference to old-time religion, I don't think it's a reference to 'fire and brimstone' as that it a later, western interpretation of scripture. I think the focus here is strictly on sacrifice and martyrdom rather than just the suffering for one's sins.

[> [> [> Re: Good review - but about the church... -- luna, 13:20:07 10/07/02 Mon

And that might, maybe, tie back to the Istanbul scene in Lessons--?? Istanbul, when it was Constantinople, was the original center for the Orthodox church, right? I don't know much about this, but I do agree about the looks of the cross. Also about the sacrifice and martyrdom--he hangs (and burns)himself on the cross.

So what's he doing, then? Is the Good Spike trying to destroy the bad one?

[> [> HumanSpike? -- lenair, 14:13:19 10/07/02 Mon

This was a great analysis -- a lot of fun to read. But I did get a little puzzled by this point:

"There are obviously no longer just 'two' Spikes, but several-- at least five by my count, and then there is the mysterious 'possession' entity, or the First Evil, or whatever the hell it is. This is my take:

You have DemonSpike, EvilSpike, GoodSpike, HumanSpike, William, and The Possession."

When do we see HumanSpike, and how would he be different from William or GoodSpike?

[> [> [> lenair-- please see my response to Shadowkat's post below, it also deals w/ your ? -- OnM, 21:03:40 10/07/02 Mon

[> [> Re: Into the Fire / I am the Spark - Thoughts on *Beneath You* ( Part 2 ) ... (***Spoilers 7.1***) -- Pandora North Star, 19:45:37 10/08/02 Tue

So wonderful. I love delving into the religious aspects of The jossverse and what they mean. He is very careful when dealing with the church. I do believe we see another church in Pangs? I'm so tired I can't get into the philosophy of it but tomorrow-you've given me fodder. Thanks.

[> [> Into the fire that burns......spoilers for Buffy 7.2 Beneath You -- Rufus, 02:34:14 10/09/02 Wed

I had to take the time to say something to your wonderful essay. I wish I had just a bit of what you have when it comes to the written word.


Song: Into The Fire
Artist: Sarah Mclachlan


Mother teach me to walk again
Milk and honey so intoxicating


And into the fire
I'm reunited
Into the fire
I am the spark
Into the fire
I yearn for comfort


Open the doors that head on into eden
Don't want to cheap and
I'll follow the signs marked back to the beginning
No more compromise


And into the fire
I'm reunited
Into the fire
I am the spark
Into the fire
I yearn for comfort


Free the water that carries me to the sea
You I see as my insecurity


And into the fire
I'm reunited
Into the fire
I am the spark
Into the fire
I yearn for comfort


I will stare into the sun until its light doesn't blind me
I will walk into the fire unitl its heat doesn't burn me
And I will feed the fire


And into the fire
I'm reunited
Into the fire
I am the spark
Into the fire
I yearn for comfort

That was a great tune to describe what will happen this year. In regards to Spike....he is now going through a test...on that means walking into the fire until it, the spark, no longer burns..then maybe he will find the comfort he yearns for after all. Will a mother step forward to teach the newly soulled vampire to walk again?

I've also noticed that Buffy seems to be taking the place of the mother....not only her mothers bedroom....but Dawn's mother (she does have mom hair after all)...and all are going back to the beginning...whatever that ends up meaning for all.

[> [> [> Re: Damn it Codine and tags don't mix........;) -- Rufus, 02:35:46 10/09/02 Wed

[> Re: Into the Fire / I am the Spark - Thoughts on *Beneath You* ( Part 1 ) ... (***Spoilers 7.1***) -- dream of the consortium, 08:58:46 10/07/02 Mon

The film seems to suggest that so much of what happens to us
in the course of our ordinary lives is up to a blindly random fate, and thus our 'free will' hinges only upon
what kinds of decisions we will make after any given instant of that fate has unfolded before us and
delivered a new series of choices for us to consider and act upon.

He needs help. She loves
him. She runs.

I haven't seen Run, Lola, Run, but in the lights of your commments on the film, I was thinking about the differences in Nancy's and Buffy's decisions at the end of the episode. Nancy rejects the Scoobie gang (or, more specifically, the Anya and Spike, Xander and Buffy being tainted by association) as a "bunch of freaks." She leaves, only to be chased down once more. Buffy does her duty, as always, and protects Nancy as best she can. Then the Demon-worm is revealed to be a naked, injured man, helpless. Nancy's response is still to walk away. Ronnie and she are no longer involved, so he is no longer her problem. Buffy, on the other hand, seeing Spike in a state of mental confusion, not a threatening demon, but a person in pain, runs after him. They might not be involved any more, but she is still concerned about his welfare. I believe that we are supposed to see Nancy and Buffy as two possibilities here. As usual, Buffy's actions "burn with love."


Thanks for another fabulous essay.

[> [> Re: Into the Fire / I am the Spark - Thoughts on *Beneath You* ( Part 1 ) ... (***Spoilers 7.1***) -- vh, 11:12:59 10/07/02 Mon

I agree, but your comment "she is still concerned about his welfare" struck me -- actually, I thought that she is MORE concerned about his welfare now. Would she have run after him out of concern last season when they were physically involved? I don't think so. Her perspective has changed.

[> [> [> You're absolutely correct. -- dream of the consortium, 11:27:23 10/07/02 Mon

[> Wonderful post. A few minor points which.. -- shadowkat, 18:44:40 10/07/02 Mon

have probably been already addressed but no time to read everything. If so, ignore.

1. Regarding the flashback with the flashlight.
I take the rationalist pov on this one. Also I've known people who have experienced situations like this. Sometimes something as simple as touching a hand of the attacker can trigger a memory. The reason it didn't happen in the basement, was he was in the vulnerable position and didn't look at all like himself. The reason it happens over the hole? Well Xander brought it up in her house minutes before.
And he looks more like he did that night - same hair cut and he is looking up at her, the touch brings it on. No it doesn't seem rational to some portions of the audience, but again if you've experienced post traumatic stress syndrom or have had something traumatic happen? It makes perfect sense. Last year - for instance the oddest things would set me off after 9/11. A stalled subway car. Or the sound of a jet streaking across the sky or a car honking. Or siren.
And at the oddest moments. So, for me at least? Buffy's reaction to just the touch of hands was perfectly understandable.

2. Loved the breakdown of the personalities. Yes I agree.
Except I don't think it's as clearly delineated as you make it. I don't know a great deal about fragmented personality
psychosis. But I think in Spike's case what we see is shades of his personality being splintered. We really have three clear personalities. One = Spike the demon, Two = William the human (which was always there in some form or another - actually I'd argue more present than in other vamps due to the chip but is now even more prevalent and fighting for control because of the soul) and three = possession. That is the meaning of the line the "three of us" in lessons. EvilSpike/DemonSpike/GoodSpike = versions of Spike the demon side. GoodSpike/HumanSpike/William = versions of the human side. We as humans are multifaceted - we show different sides of ourselves depending on the situation or if you will put on different customs. There is a huge mask custom theme going on this season and I truly believe that we are now mostly inhabiting Giles and Buffy's dreams in Restless. In Giles' dream - Spike is doing different poses and acting like a freak show, in Buffy's Riley and Adam sit opposite each other = the demon and the human at conference. I noticed in Restless that either Spike or Riley would appear in each dream. Spike in Giles and Xanders. Riley in Buffy and Willows. Spike and Riley also now bear each other's scars. Riley came back with a scar through or close to his left eyebrow which many posters noted was similar to Spike's. Spike comes back with a scar over his heart that is similar to Riley's. So I think we are dealing with three personalities in Spike and shades of those three. The possession = well that has all the big bads, William = Is the Spike we saw examining the hole (no snark, mature, calm) and the man who cried
and the man who gave the speech at the end. Spike = is the snarky demon we love (a four year old could figure it? Well yes, where have you been all night? Did you make me weak),
EvilSpeak (big bad is back - the bravado, the bad boyfriend), DemonSpike (the vampire, who makes lewd remarks and fights and kills). In summary it's not five personalities - it's just three struggling for dominance.
Or rather two and one that is tormenting them both.

The show has always dealt with duality. Glory/Ben (which this harkens back to and excites me b/c in many ways Season 5 continues to be my favorite season), Giles/Ripper, Willow/DarkWillow, Angel/Angelus, Buffy/Slayer, SuaveXander/GeekyXander, Anyanka/Anya, DAwn/Key, Spike/William. The theme that we are who we are is that integration of the two. Angel can't escape Angelus - as he will no doubt be reminded this year - they are part of each other. Buffy can't escape the slayer. Xander can't escape the geek. But that's a good thing. As we learned in the Replacement - the two sides can't survive without each other. Spike must have William in order to be forgiven, in order to choose good. And William must have Spike in order
to live and fight evil - to have the power to do so. To atone. But as any psychologist will probably tell you, starting with Jung - the process towards wholeness, to reintergration is a hard one and which side becomes the dominant side? Is anyone's guess. But I don't believe the struggle ever ends. I think Buffy will always be fighting the dark part of her personality. Just as Angel does.
And William will.

3. Churches
-What's My Line Part II - the ritual for Drusilla. Spike is crippled in the church
- Hush - the church houses the Gentleman
- Who Are You - Riley going to Mass and the battle between Faith and Buffy (another duality episode)Also Adam convinces the vamps not to fear the church.
- Amends?? (had tons of religious imagery)
- Nightmares (had a ton as well - Master grasps a cross stating his fear of it)

4. I think the chip fired.

5. Completely agree about Run Lola Run. (I also saw Alias, but since Whedon doesn't watch TV and is movie buff - I think it's Run Lola Run - great catch.)

Okay...that's my addition. Again great review. One of the better reviews of the episode i read. And one of the few that admits that the final scene is beyond analysis.

SK

[> [> R., if I may S.V.P. -- (*** Spoilers 7.2 ***) -- OnM, 20:55:05 10/07/02 Mon

To SK & lenair (and anyone else, natch):


I thought I'd combine the responses to these two posts into one, since they are largely about the same
topic, wihich is the nature of the current 'personalities' that Spike has exhibited since his re-ensoulment.

from Shadowkat's post:

*** Except I don't think it's as clearly delineated as you make it. I don't know a great deal about
fragmented personality psychosis. But I think in Spike's case what we see is shades of his personality being
splintered. We really have three clear personalities.

One = Spike the demon
Two = William the human
Three = the Possession

(...) That is the meaning of the line the "three of us" in Lessons.

EvilSpike/DemonSpike/GoodSpike = versions of Spike the demon side.

GoodSpike/HumanSpike/William = versions of the human side.

We as humans are multifaceted - we show different sides of ourselves depending on the situation or if you
will put on different customs. ***


I really don't disagree with this at all, and you seem very likely to be correct that the 'three of us' line is
about the primary facets of Spike's personality, which you accurately enumerated.

My observation hinges more on what you have also stated:

*** in Spike's case what we see is shades of his personality being splintered. ***

'Splintered' is the operative word here. Spike has always had the tug-of-war between William and
VampedWilliam, but until he met Buffy, William was always a minute factor in determining Spike's
behavior, and mostly came into play when Spike was in love with Drusilla, who recognized something
'effulgent' within William.

The difference is now that the ensoulment has caused Spike to largely lose control over which of the
shades of his personalities come to the fore at any given time. I'm most certainly not an expert on
multiple-personality disorder either, but from what I have read on the subject, a normal person more or less
slides between factions of their personality, whereas an MPD-stricken individual jumps, and
the personalities are/become severely disassociated-- they don't blend or coexist, they are almost like
different minds. One personality may even talk about the other (or others) as if they were a completely
different person.

This is the way I see Spike. The original sliding range from pure vamp to pure human has splintered, and
now is composed of discrete individuals, all sequentially residing within one cortex.

One of the distinctions of this new arrangement is that the extremes can now exist in significant real time,
whereas they rarely came out fully 'in the open' before. This is why I mentioned that I thought it was
important to note the the two splinters on the dark side of the scale-- DemonSpike and EvilSpike-- now
have the potential to kill Buffy. GoodSpike/HumanSpike/William would not have allowed this. Prior to this
episode, the only times I recall seeing DemonSpike was when he arranged to torture Angel to find where
the Gem of Amarra (sp?) was hidden, and his killing of the Chinese Slayer. Even in these cases it was
mostly the EvilSpike shading at work, just with a heavier dose of pure demon.

Other examples of EvilSpike would be his killing of the Anointed One, beating Angelus in Becoming Pt
II, his attempt to bite Willow (right after being chipped), his early genuine attacks on Buffy and of
course all of the humans he killed over most of his days (nights?) after being vamped.

Before the chip, the closest he ever came to being 'GoodSpike' was when he made the deal with Buffy to
save Drusilla when Angelus wanted to have Acathla open the door to hell, or during his personal moments
with Drusilla. This might have been William at work, but the influence was still very weak. GoodSpike is
engaging in good deeds primarily to suit his own interest. If any real good is accomplished, it's a
side-effect, not the main action.

HumanSpike only came about because of the chip, and Spike falling subsequently falling in love with
Buffy. The first time we saw HumanSpike was at the end of Fool for Love. The calming of his
murderous rage and the attempt to console Buffy had no side benefit whatsoever for him-- it served
no ulterior motive. Spike showed genuine compassion for his enemy. No vampire would
ever do this without a concomitant self-interest to serve. Since this time, other possible examples could
have been his fondness for Joyce and his caretaking of Dawn, but in these cases it is still possible to find
some degree of self-interest, although it is a small enough proportion to be arguable as to its influence.

Just as we have rarely ever see DemonSpike, we even more rarely see pure William. The only time I can
think of for sure is when Buffy died at the end of The Gift-- that was William weeping, IMO. In the
first two episodes of this season, we have seen pure William appear a number of times.

So, here is another permutation in terms of how threatening this new collection of 'splinters' could be to
Buffy or for that matter to any of the Scoobies:

DS-- Would kill Buffy in a heartbeat (anybody's) if he felt like it. Would not only rape her, but
probably get other demons to join in. If the chip went off he'd probably enjoy it.
ES-- Would kill her if it isn't too inconvenient or for a chance to show off. Wouldn't like the
chip's reaction, but figure it was worth it. Wouldn't rape her, but some general torture would be OK.
GS-- Likes/respects Buffy, wouldn't willingly kill her, but could be tricked into doing so. Would
grieve for a day or two then get on with his life. Pretty darn snarky most of the time. Would slap her
around occasionally only because he figures she likes it.
HS-- In love with Buffy, wouldn't hurt her, but enjoys consensual S&M. If she died, would grieve
for a long period of time. Would take care of Dawn like a parent. Still a bit snarky, though.
William-- Would marry Buffy and write poetry about her on a daily basis. Would get killed by the
first angry puppy to cross his path. Riley without the edge.

What I see as the likely future path of Spike's 'journey' is to re-integrate the splintered personalities back
to a single primary one, with the end result being either EvilSpike or HumanSpike. This, in fact, you could
argue as being what he sought out in going to the a cave-demon. He expected the soul to re-integrate him,
or the failure to get it proof that he was meant to be 'a monster'. Instead of choosing one of two paths, his
two paths suddenly branched out into something like the LA highway system.

That this is a similar journey to what Buffy faced in season six, and to me seems logical and typically
ME-ish. Anya, Willow and Xander face similar, if not as widely divergent roads.


Regarding the flashback with the flashlight: *** I take the rationalist pov on this one. ***

Me too. I was just curious about the closed captions and what they suggested. Alternate idea that was
abandoned, or fan-mind-f*ck? Too close to call, as usual! ;-)

Thanks for your other thoughts too, well-reasoned as usual!

(All for tonight now , back again tomorrow. Thanks to everyone on this thread for your kind words-- you
keep readin' 'em, I'll keep crankin' 'em out!)

:-)

[> [> [> Generally agree...still Spike's mental state -- shadowkat, 06:01:30 10/08/02 Tue

Agree on the splintering and your breakdown, which I've typified:

DemonSpike: School Hard, HLOD Spike
EvilSpike: Becoming, What's My Line, Yoko Factor,
AYW (demon eggs), Crush (where he chains Buffy), Smashed
GoodSpike: Checkpoint, Crush (where he tries to date Buffy)
Spiral, WOTW, Bargaining, Flooded, ALL The Way,
HumanSpike:Tabula Rasa (Randy Giles), The Gift, FFL(comfort scene)
William:FFL(flashback), and mostly this year...also possibly the Gift and Entropy

But here we may disagree slightly. I don't think he can kill anyone without it destroying him. As we saw with the stabbing of Ronnie. If he killed Xander, Buffy, or the girl on the street - it would destroy him right now.

Spike is not just suffering from multiple personality disorder - he is suffering from hearing the voices of everyone he has ever killed. Remember his speech from
Beneath You? "Everybody's in here ...Talking. Everything I did...everybody I ...and Him and It, the other, that's beneath you..." Also notice he barely hits Buffy in the Bronze scene. Just once. She keeps hitting him. (Spike like Willow wants to be punished.)
And his fight with Anya? Anya is a demon - he can handle hurting her. He thinks Ronnie's one - when Ronnie is proven not to be anymore by the chip firing - that unravels him.

No, the only way he could seriously hurt Buffy right now - is if he could silence or ignore all those voices of past victims in his head. Spike right now actually bears more similarity to DarkWillow after Giles gave her the magical whammy than to Warren or the Mayor. Like DarkWillow was overwhelmed with the feelings and pain of others - so is Spike, but in Spike's case it's the empathy of all his victims. And unlike Angel who was similarily overwhelmed by this in getting a soul - Spike's soul abhorred violence.

I also disagree with your assessment of William. For some reason everyone assumes William was a weakling on the basis of a few lines. I don't see that. Maybe because I've known a few Williams in my lifetime and they were anything but weak. But that is a topic we may never agree on. I'm not sure what ME's view is on this topic. They've shown us so little of William. So we'll have to wait and see if they decide to tell us more.

The thing about Spike - is they have five possible avenues to go down with him - all make sense, all have great possibilities and all effect the story in major ways.
Hence our inability to accurately predict what he will do next. This is the reason that tons of people are hunting spoilers. And it's why it's so hard to stay away from them.

Afraid to predict what will happen. But my hunch is what happens next with Spike has a lot to do with what Buffy and SG decide to do next. It also has a lot to do with how Spike fits in with the female empowerment and we are what we are themes going on. Also what we see Spike do may be in contrast to what Angel does. I think the two shows will mirror each other more this year than before.

[> [> [> [> William's strength of character -- Indri, 11:51:38 10/08/02 Tue

I also disagree with your assessment of William. For some reason everyone assumes William was a weakling on the basis of a few lines. I don't see that.

I'd love to read more of your thoughts on this (maybe direct me to the archives if you've written on this before?).

When I first saw FFL, I thought of William as someone who was desperately and awkwardly trying to be good in a milieu that mocked him for it. If so, this would indicate a considerable strength of character---even if we did see him when he at last reached breaking point.

But I have just read your essay on Spike and Willow, where Willow is described as an "adapted child" conforming to her parents' expectations while submerging her true self; also a recent thread conjectured that perhaps William was bullied by his mother. If so, then perhaps FFL William is just more scared of his mother than of his peers, but even then he might still be clinging to his own moral compass.

William's approach to being good seems to have been one of avoiding and denying evil rather than confronting it. No wonder he's havimg a hard time reconciling with the demon.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: William's strength of character -- shadowkat, 13:07:45 10/08/02 Tue

Of all the characters on Btvs, I think Spike and Willow fascinate me the most. Or i should say William and Willow.

We know so little about him. We know actually more about Willow. If it were possible to find a male counterpart for Willow? That would be William or Spike. Just as Giles is in many ways Willow's male counterpart.

Buffy's male counterparts are Xander and Angel - I believe.
See my B/X essay for more on that.

I wrote a total of six essays comparing W/S and in them, I finally decided that William is neither weak nor strong - he's both. He reminds me a little of Giles in Season 1.
The stuttering academic who is a little afraid of what he has gotten himself into.

You are correct - William has dealt with violence in some ways by ignoring it. Or pushing it aside. Not fleeing so much as just pretending it's not there. I understand this, I've dealt with violence somewhat the same way in my life at times. The old adage - I can't do anything about it so why spend time focusing on it. His line in FFL is telling:"That's what the police are for" the line is somewhat echoed by Willow in Harvest - "shouldn't we call the police" and Nancy in BY " what about contacting the police" - Nancy also attempts to ignore the violence.

And in truth what could William have done? Would engaging in conversation with the others regarding violence have solved it? It wasn't as if they were asking him to fight.
They just wanted his opinion - he had none. He found violence vulgar and unworthy. And preferred to concentrate on poetry and winning the affections of Cecily. (Incredibly ironic - if Cecily is in fact Halfrek and a proponent of violence in her own right.) He didn't flee from violence in that scene, he merely turned his back on a discussion of it.

I've never understood the line "mother is expecting me".
I've heard many theories. But I'm on the fence. And even though I've looked up neurasthenic and read stuff on it, I don't truly understand what it means nor am i truly convinced it applies to Spike. I need more. Whether ME gives me more or not? Remains to be seen.

I find it interesting that he did not run from Dru and he retreated to be alone in an alley away from the crowd and the scene of his humilation. I don't see that as a sign of weakness. What should he have done? Stayed there? Admist people he did not like?

Again...that scene in FFL isn't enough for me to understand who and what William is. Nor for that matter are the snippets we've been given. Until I have more - I am hesitant to label him any more than I''ve already done.
Beginning to see that as a disservce to the character.

Anyway hope this helps. Must run...no time to check it over.
SK

[> [> [> [> [> [> Hmmm back to vengeance....Spoilers for Buffy and Angel 4.1 -- Rufus, 02:23:56 10/09/02 Wed

Remember what Angel said to Connor about Vengeance.....

Angel: But understand..there's a difference between wishing vengeance on someone and taking it.

That line reminded me about what happens when a vampire is created. Imagine, all the vengeful thoughts, no matter how small...being acted out...a vampire becomes vengeance out of control because they act out on thoughts that the person who once was would only have wished for from the safety of their mind. Now imagine finding out you have done nothing but take vengeance (because the creation of the vampire itself is all about vengeance) for years. You have to look at Angel and Spike in a new way.....both had troubles before they became vampires, but both never took vengeance, if anything the turned their negative feelings out on themselves. We see Angel years after getting a soul back so we didn't see just how hard it was to find balance between the demonic urge and the human soul. I suspect that Angel went crazy for awhile as well. It will be a struggle for both soulled vampires, and under the sea Angel got to reflect upon what his place was as a champion, as a man/demon. I suspect that Spike is going through the same process we just get to see the beginning of a journey that we missed out on with Angel.

[> [> Frankfurt, Run Lola Run, and Alias -- vh, 06:37:08 10/08/02 Tue

Can't find the article, but it seems to me that I read somewhere that JJ Abrams was inspired by Run Lola Run stylistically in the creation of Alias. So it is no wonder that there might be some confusion over what Whedon is in fact getting at. Now I am going to have to go back and have a look (at Run Lola Run, that is!).

[> [> [> Re: Frankfurt, Run Lola Run, and Alias -- Rob, 07:11:35 10/08/02 Tue

That's funny, because when I first saw the punky girl, I thought of "Alias"...and then "Run, Lola, Run." And she was really a mix of both, because of the great fighting skills.

Rob

[> [> [> Re: Frankfurt, Run Lola Run, and Alias -- ponygirl, 07:33:40 10/08/02 Tue

I seem to recall JJ Abrams being pretty lavish with the praise in that recent NY Times article on Joss. Abrams cited Joss as an influence on Alias, so perhaps it was a reciprocal hat tip, as well as a Lola reference.

[> [> [> [> Re: Frankfurt, Run Lola Run, and Alias -- vh, 12:53:41 10/08/02 Tue

Well, since they're my top two right now, it would be nice to think they respected each other (now, if only WB wouldn't schedule Angel vs Alias, life would be perfect ...).

[> [> [> [> [> Yay! A fellow "Alias" fan! -- Rob, 13:48:40 10/08/02 Tue

Hasn't the new season been great so far? I'm glad to say that "Buffy," in its seventh season, and "Alias," in its second, are both equally cool, fresh, kick-ass, funny, dramatic, etc.

And despite the fact that "Alias" is a spy show, they really do have a lot in common, not just in the fighting, but also in ancient prophecies, complex mythology, angst, and realistic characters in fantastic circumstances. Now, "Buffy" wins out, because it has far greater depth than "Alias," IMO, ( I can't really see analyzing it on quite the same level as Whedon's work), but "Alias," in its own way, is quite brilliant also.

Rob

[> [> [> [> [> [> Off-topic re:Alias -- KdS, 07:48:28 10/09/02 Wed

Sorry, I'd like to ask you and other "Alias" fans what your take on the politics of the series is?

It's just started to be shown on non-subscription TV in Britain and I gave up after two episodes because I was so disappointed by the second half of ep:1. After SD-10 killed Sidney's fiance I was really juiced and thinking that I was going to see a really, deep-down, morally ambiguous spy series. The disappointment I felt when SD-10 was revealed as a SPECTRE-equivalent poisoned the rest of it for me. Over the next two episodes it seemed as if it was constantly suggesting that young/good-looking/Amurrican = good but old/ugly/foreign/speech-impedimented = evil.

I'd like to put forward a very nasty, conspiratorially-minded interpretation of Alias as follows:

SD-10 is the CIA as it was shown in much Seventies/Eighties fiction inspired by the Phoenix/Iran-Contra/MKUltra etc. revelations of the period. They lurk in their front companies' office blocks, run their own agenda which has very little to do with the official one, kill anyone who gets in their way without compunction, wear sinister grey suits etc. By contrast the "real" CIA are clean-cut upstanding guys in shirtsleeves and nice airy offices who really care about their operatives and work for truth, justice and apple pie. For me, the subliminal message is "See, all that nasty conspiratorial stuff wasn't the CIA, it was these dodgy types *pretending* to be the CIA. We're just a bunch of regular guys!"

Does anyone think I might have a point, or am I just a paranoid lefty :-) ?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> I think you're a paranoid lefty:) -- Greta, 09:11:12 10/09/02 Wed

I just started watching Alias this summer and got myself all caught up.

I think the bad elements of the CIA in the 1970s and 1980s were never really as bad as SD-6 (is it SD-10 in the UK?) because at least some of them believed that what they were doing was for the good of the country and that situation spun out of control. (I read a book on intelligence services that quoted an CIA employee as saying the reason Iran-Contra went so horribly wrong was the lack of adult supervision:)

SD-6 in contrast is all about EEEVIL, they're just out for the money. Actually, it comes up later but Sloane, the head SD-6 guy) actually was CIA and LEFT to make a profit. Plus, the whole Syd's mom subplot really makes things interesting.

Personally, I think it's unfair to characterize all CIA employees by the actions of a few bad ones. The majority (and a bunch are just multi-lingual academics) really care about the security and direction of their country. Of course, I could just be a paranoid righty who blames Frank Church for possibly the most asinine policy in history: The US government can't assassinate anyone but they can subcontract assassinations.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Off-topic re:Alias -- Miss Edith, 09:56:32 10/09/02 Wed

This is kind of O/T but I caught the trailers for Alias on terristrial tv (C4 the channel that butchered Angel) and it looked promising. I watched the first episode which was shown at 6pm. There were some really obvious cuts in places and I read on some tv letter page on teletext someone complaining that Alias was a adult programe with graphic torture and violence and C4 would end up cutting it to shreds. Haven't watched it since and I don't intend to unless it is shown at a reasnable hour.
I have no intention of getting emotionally invested in a show and then getting stressed about not seeing the proper version. I learnt my lesson with Ats which was also shown at 6pm. The first episode was poorly censered with sentences being cut off in the middle. I stuck with it and watched Lonely Hearts. I couldn't follow the episode at all and I was totally confused about what was going on. That was the point at which I gave up watching and just waited for the DVDs.
And this really has nothing to do with anything except it gives me a chance to rant about the stupitity of terristrial television which is always a fun thing to do. Can't wait to see how BBC2 manage to make Buffy season 6 appropriate for a 6:45pm slot. This is a channel that edits out words like bitch and Willow jokingly asking Xander if he's selling drugs in TIIT. Maybe this year they might actually catch on to the fact that not all science fiction are childrens programes.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Um (venturing further OT) -- vh, 12:16:08 10/09/02 Wed

Well, it's hard for me to comment, because I don't think of Alias as being about politics, really. The spy drama part is not Tom Clancy/realistic spy drama, but 007/fantasy spy drama. Yes, the CIA boys are good guys, but they're human, from Devlin, who's had his doubts about Jack; to Jack, who doesn't always play it by the book; to Sloane, who left the CIA for the "Alliance of Twelve" (of which SD-6 is a branch)--Sloane felt "betrayed" by the CIA at some point in the past; to the slimy mole Haladki; to the smarmy Seth Lambert, who put the moves on Sydney when he was briefly assigned as her handler instead of Vaughn. And then there's that pushy FBI guy Kendall.

The "bad guys," SD-6 are hardly just a bunch of bad guys. Most of them think they're working for the CIA. When the field agents go out and steal a dangerous weapon or piece of intel from other bad guys, their bosses turn around and sell it or use it, leaving the lower-level agents none the wiser.

And then there are the vague allusions to Vaughn's father having done things that he'd rather not have to be the "good citizen." I suspect we'll eventually find out more about that.

Alias is really more of a family drama at heart -- a family drama with a lot of plot and action.

I see no reason to read anything more into it. I don't think that ABC is an arm of the CIA ( ;) ).

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Yay! A fellow "Alias" fan! -- vh, 11:48:12 10/09/02 Wed

Yep, can't wait until Jack has his confab with Irina!

The two programs have different appeals -- Buffy lends itself to philosophical analysis, but Alias is deep in plot and a well-crafted family drama underneath all the spy flair. It would tend to lend itself more to literary and character analysis. And you're not going to find a finer cast on television, not even on BtVS, IMHO (J Garner, V Garber, R Rifkin, Lena Olin, C Lumbly).

[> [> A futher Spike-Riley similarity **Spoiler for 7.3** -- Dead Soul, 03:00:59 10/09/02 Wed

Spike once called Riley the "enormous hall monitor." Now Spike is in the basment checking the permission slips of those who wander its halls.

Dead (and always happy to point out the obvious) Soul

[> Small speculation -- Wisewoman, 19:37:35 10/07/02 Mon

Does anyone else think the hooded figures with the big knives look a bit like the Knights of Byzantium, when we first saw them in Season 5?

Brillian, as usual, OnM!

;o) dub

[> [> Re: Small speculation...an addition -- Rufus, 21:03:14 10/07/02 Mon

When the guys with the robes were chasing the "girl" in the first episode...I wondered..if these are religious types then why are they wearing boots?

[> Superb! -- Slain, 18:06:45 10/09/02 Wed

OnM, if you've read my earlier thoughts on 7.01 you'll know my position on allusion and postmodernsim - that it's a vital, and often overlooked, part of the show, equally as important as the 'depth' of the characters and the various moral quandries.

Though perhaps the reason allusion isn't discussed as often as, say, Spike's moral complex, is that it is deliberately so superficial; that is, the allusion is there for its own sake. That's the view I've usually held - but I think this review has given me new insight, to an extent, by making deeper parallels between the main text, Buffy, and the allusion, Run Lola Run.

WOW! (Angel S4 Premiere Spoilers) -- Darby, 20:22:54 10/06/02 Sun

No time to fully process, but Angel's season premiere was, first impression, the best show so far of the new season! Deep Down, you gotta love it!

Loved the "new" Fred, and she as an adult has real chemistry for the first time with Gunn. The L.A. vampires are beginning to become really distinct from the Sunnydale variety, and that's a good development. The hallucinations had some good old-fashioned imagery, stuff to puzzle over and discuss for a while. Connor seems destined to actually be something in the ballpark of a real teenage boy as well as a mystery super-freak - let's hope they can keep him from being too annoying.

Wesley, Wesley, Wesley! Where'd he develop this power of personality? Oh, right, they've been showing us for five years or so, haven't they? Justine as butt monkey was a bit hard to buy, but it was too much fun to complain about. And Lilah, she of the foggy motivations and razor-sharp...er, corporate reflexes, although she dealt with the wrong lawyer, in my opinion, was notched up on the interesting meter.

And, gotta say that David B's acting chops seem to get stronger every year - his scene with Connor was very Whedonesque (Greenwalt who-?) and he sailed through it impressively.

Now if that very last scene is an indication that we'll get a hint of our old Cordelia back, this will have been as close to a perfect episode as we can expect.

- Darby, on a bit of a drive-by.

[> Going through the motions -- Cactus Watcher, 21:28:36 10/06/02 Sun

I second everything Darby said about Angel. But, the experience seemed that much more intense, because for the first time in years I sat through an episode of Charmed waiting for it. The last time I saw Charmed it was all fluff and nonsense, very much a slightly less comic Sabrina the Teenage Witch. I see now they are playing at 'darkness.' Ooh, emotion packed! It wasn't that it was bad. It wasn't. It was just blah. Kind of a teenager's idea of hard-hitting drama. Not at all silly, but not very deep either. Needless to say when Angel came on the difference was pretty jarring. Angel is an adults show. Charmed is just going through the motions.

[> [> what is that saying about imitation... -- Solitude1056, 07:11:02 10/07/02 Mon

I fell for the same marketing trick, with the only good aspect being the thought that at least I no longer accidentally turn on the last five minutes of 7th Heaven. But after an episode of Charmed, I'm not sure I'd consider Charmed a higher class of anything - it's more like a bad rip-off. At some points I got the feeling that Spelling's writers were sitting around saying, "Joss did it, so we can do it too! But we'll do it with morals." (At one point, one of the characters said a plot development felt very "after-school-specialish," which is metanarration if I've ever heard it - even unintentionally.)

Charmed is grappling (or at least attempting to grapple) with the same issues as BtVS and AtS. What is that oft-quoted comment by Darla, about what we were influences all that we are to become? If someone is evil - or purportedly has evil origins, whatever those are - can the person be rehabilitated? Is love powerful enough to overcome a person's ingrained upbringing, culture, beliefs, personality? The message on Charmed seems to be a far more black-and-white strict interpretation of the text; that is, it gives its answer with a resounding no. The people in black hats are always bad, and the people in white hats always save the day. The side effect is that love doesn't conquer jack, unless you're a white hat.

Guess what bugged the most wasn't the attempt at a Spike/Buffy dichotomy between two Charmed characters, but that I've been spoiled. Charmed kept telling me the answer, while BtVS shows the question... and BtVS always seems to leave the question open-ended.

Boy, was I glad when AtS started, and I sure won't be turning the TV on before 9pm again!

[> [> [> is the sincerest form of theft. -- Arethusa, 08:30:22 10/07/02 Mon

It's so flat. Flat acting, writing, direction. It's b/w, not shadow, and Aaron Spelling's trademark lack of emotional depth. "Charmed"'s a pond. Angel and BtVS are oceans.

[> [> [> [> Hey, come on now! Back off the sexy witch-type persons... -- cjl, 08:48:15 10/07/02 Mon

Although if they keep packaging Alyssa Milano in those dowdy, San Francisco reporter outfits, I might blow a gasket...

So they're ripping off BUFFY's themes. So what? Would it hurt for more fantasy series to exploit the possibilities of the genre and explore the nature of good and evil? Granted, it's a lot less complex than Joss' vision, but the breeziness of tone is generally pleasurable, and I've never had a problem with the leads. Ms. Combes, Ms. Milano, and especially Ms. McGowan (Paige Matthews, dedicated professional witch--give that girl a union card!) are beautiful and their characters are well-defined and powerfully sexy (or is that sexily powerful?).

On the other hand, Shirtless Cole is such a blatant cry for attention that it tries even my patience for TV pablum...

[> [> [> [> [> A Vote for Shirtless Cole... (by Proxy) -- Darby, 10:02:25 10/07/02 Mon

Granted, the show isn't Great American Art, but it's fun, and occasionally interesting, and often annoying, but with fun things to watch and...well, watch.

And the wife's a big Cole fan (I like HMC, personally) - and he is the most interesting character, as the writers don't follow the characters' black-and-white attitudes with him...

[> [> [> [> [> Sorry have to agree with Aerustha here -- shadowkat, 11:48:13 10/07/02 Mon

Actually Cole is the only thing worth watching on the show.
The rest of it...sigh. One more hour of Leo and Piper
arguing...argh. Have to agree with the comment Joss made
about Aaron Spelling in NYTimes some weeks back "Aaron Spelling has lowered the nation's SAT scores."

Cole's character at least has a little depth. And the actor
actually seems to have some charisma, not a lot, but so much more than the rest of the cast. Unfortunately the show can't decide what to do with him or how to stretch him beyond a complicated love interest for Phoebe.

I watch the show from time to time as one would eat cotton candy - airy frosty goodness but 0 substance and bad for the teeth.

[> [> [> [> [> [> forgot to add -- shadowkat, 11:53:13 10/07/02 Mon

Charmed is cotton candy while Angel is a four course meal of intellectual and entertainment goodness.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: forgot to add -- JBone, 20:58:05 10/07/02 Mon

I've always thought of Charmed more of Charlies Angels, at least when I use to watch it. I was just looking for the girls in bikinis.

[> [> [> Speculation for 'Charmed' -- LadyStarlight, 15:07:08 10/07/02 Mon

Disclaimer: I watch Charmed. But only because now it's on before Angel and that way I don't have to wrestle the remote away from the husband.

About half-way through last night's ep of Charmed, I turned to above husband & said "I am so seeing a big angsty ep coming up where Cole gives up his powers to prove himself to Phoebe (or whoever he's married to). This is such a rip-off of Buffy."

Anyone wanna take the bet??

[> [> [> [> He did that already. Didn't take. (CHARMED Spoilers) -- cjl, 15:19:46 10/07/02 Mon

That's when he became The Source (your one-stop shopping place for demonic evil), and his marriage to Phoebe turned into a bizarre supernatural version of The Sopranos:

"I don't care what your sisters think. You're MY wife. NEVER ask me about my business."

Frankly, I don't know what Brad Kern and the rest of the writing staff are going to do with Cole. They seem to have explored all of their options with the character, and are keeping Julian McMahon around as a hearty slice o' beefcake. Phoebe and the rest of the troop are never going to trust him again, because he's still the same arrogant jerk he always was. At least when Angel was sent to hell, he got a bit of humility out of it....

[> Not bad for Angel.... -- Rochefort, 21:41:41 10/06/02 Sun

I agree that it was nice to see the old Cordy again in that last scene. If that's the last we see of her, it's not a bad last shot. But I hope she's around more. Anyone know if she's gonna be more or less off the series?

Yeah this episode was the best non-Joss Angel I've seen. Has De Knight moved over to Angel permanently?

[> [> Question from an owner of a rebellious VCR... -- Lyonors, 15:57:18 10/07/02 Mon

I read the wildfeed, I will survive, for now, without _seeing_ the ep, but I just want to know, was Cordy's hair still that AWFUL blonde butchered bit from the end of last season??

Ly

[> [> [> Re: Question from an owner of a rebellious VCR... -- JM, 16:30:54 10/07/02 Mon

Looked the same. Thought the blow-do was a little softer in a couple of scenes. However, it was different for one scene. The first hallucination it was longer and browner. Reminded me a little of a shorter version of Anya's hair.

[> Re: WOW! (Angel S4 Premiere Spoilers) -- celticross, 21:43:23 10/06/02 Sun

Yay! I missed this show over the summer. Also drive by-ing, till I can get my thoughts wrapped around this one. Until then, the ever popular list (and I'm sure I'll forget about a few things on the way).

-The teaser, with everyone happy and together, and Wes's presence at the table being welcome. Then it all turns on its head....spooky.

-Is it just me, or does Connor's face look thinner?

-Gotta love Gunn and Fred doing their darnedest to parent. And Gunn as alpha male? Yep. I can completely see that. Fred with stakes up the sleeves and a handy tazor? Someone let this girl kick butt more often.

-LOVED the scene on the boat after they pull Angel up. The way his hallucinations and reality merge and interact...just wow.

-I'm super intrigued by Wes and Lilah. There's a relationship there, with actual feelings, I believe, though at the moment they'd both rather die than admit that. If they're even aware...

-Hmmmm...so when did Wes find Justine and get the truth out of her? And that phone call from Wes to Fred and Gunn? I would have liked to see that, Joss.

Ok, it's late and I can't think of any more. I'm sure others will mention all the stuff I forgot.

[> [> sorry, it was DeKnight I was addressing...see what happens when I should be sleeping? :) -- celticross, 22:06:25 10/06/02 Sun

[> Agreed: all hail New!Fred (spoilers ATS 4.1) -- cjl, 21:53:41 10/06/02 Sun

Although she's not entirely new. Her confrontation with Wesley still stings from last year, and this is probably Fred's inner badass stretching out after three months as alpha female in the office. Still, her taser-enhanced "discussion" with Connor is more dramatic than berating a hospitalized Wesley, and it's a welcome reminder of that survival-savvy escaped slave girl from Pylea somewhere inside our Winifred.

And yes, she finally shows some chemistry with Gunn--and no mention of those stupid pancakes for the entire ep! I especially like it when she tries slipping in hip hop vocabulary words, and Gunn keeps waving her off. Fred and Gunn look like they've been together 24/7 for the entire three months--and other than worrying themselves to death about Angel and Cordy, it looks like 24/7 hasn't been that bad for their relationship. Still not completely on board with the romantic chemistry, but I'm halfway up the gangplank. Regardless, solid work from AA and JAR, since they practically had to carry the episode.

And what can I say about Wesley? (I'm curious--do lovebirds Alyson and Alexis have "matching credit" contracts?) The sex-and-mind games with Lilah proceed apace, and the Slave Girl scenes with Justine were inspired. Wes seemed to be quite in tune with the relationship Justine had with Holtz, and exploited that part of her personality to perfection.

(Gotta admit, I wanted to slap Fred when she accused him of not caring. Come on! He dredged Angel from the bottom of the ocean, fed Angel his own blood, and dragged a very heavy, half-undead vampire back to the hotel. Yes, he had the "Wesleyus" attitude, but would he have made the effort if he didn't care? I think Fred [and Gunn] need to think things over regarding Wes...)

And as for Cordelia...

YES!

Queen C lives!

So many nice touches: the L.A. vamps, the banquet opening, Lilah's power grab, Gavin on clean-up duty, Lorne in Vegas...just superb work all around. Steven DeKnight, welcome to ANGEL. Stick around. Please?

9 out of 10.

[> [> Re: Agreed: all hail New!Fred (spoilers ATS 4.1) -- JM, 05:06:50 10/07/02 Mon

Wes looked like he was thinking the exact same as you. He had just proved how much he still cares and she was shoving it back in his face, proving Justine right.

Always loved Fred, love her even more right now. Her reactions regarding Wes are pretty complex I think. When he's not there she defends him, consistently mentions him, and tries to see things from his perspective. When she's in the same room with him, she goes for the jugular. I think we saw with Connor that she's got quite the temper under the sweet exterior. She did have some reason for getting pissed with Wes though. "You were safer not knowing" was the exact same thing he pulled last year and that didn't turn out very well.

[> [> [> Re: Agreed: all hail New!Fred (spoilers ATS 4.1) -- alcibiades, 09:37:25 10/07/02 Mon

"You were safer not knowing" was the exact same thing he pulled last year and that didn't turn out very well.

OTOH, it is the same thing she and Gunn were pulling with Connor earlier in the day. Because they didn't want to disappoint him if the lead turned out not to know anything.

[> [> Re: Agreed: all hail New!Fred (spoilers ATS 4.1) -- Silky, 07:02:50 10/07/02 Mon

>>(Gotta admit, I wanted to slap Fred when she accused him of not caring. Come on! He dredged Angel from the bottom of the ocean, fed Angel his own blood, and dragged a very heavy, half-undead vampire back to the hotel. Yes, he had the "Wesleyus" attitude, but would he have made the effort if he didn't care? I think Fred [and Gunn] need to think things over regarding Wes...)

I thought it was interesting that Lilah accused Wes of the same thing - not caring. Another example of the writer's having the characters say exactly the opposite of what is really going on. Obviously, Wes cares a great deal.

I have thought since last season Wes is using Lilah for info and will eventually use it to help Angel. How did Wes know about Justine and Connor though?

[> [> [> Re: Agreed: all hail New!Fred (spoilers ATS 4.1) -- JM, 07:14:30 10/07/02 Mon

He said on the boat that it wasn't much of a stretch to figure out which door to kick in once he knew Angel was missing. I think he had some advantage in that he was the only one who saw the encounter in the club and may be the only one who suspected that Justine knew that Connor and Holtz were back. He probably took prisoner and asked questions later. Keeping someone deprived and locked-up probably gets them to talk eventually anyway. However we also know from "The Ring" that Wes is fairly skilled in some more persuasive methods as well. I wouldn't be terribly surprised to learn that he had employed them earlier this summer to get the complete story from Justine. Also seemed an element of psychological torture in their relationship too.

[> [> Re: Agreed: all hail New!Fred (spoilers ATS 4.1) -- Juliet, 19:24:05 10/07/02 Mon

I'd like to add that the flashbacks set me up...the fred-taser scene and the lilah-linwood scene both made me say out loud "that's got to be someone's dream". But of course they weren't, and it made it much more shocking and creepy.

but definetly...Let's go for a boat ride? How awesome is that?!? How long you guys wanna bet she was in there?

[> [> [> Re: Agreed: all hail New!Fred (spoilers ATS 4.1) -- JM, 20:12:22 10/07/02 Mon

Me, I bet all summer. I imagine Fred and Gunn called Wes pretty early on for help. He said that it didn't take much to connect the dots to Justine. Also Fred and Gunn couldn't find her, and they look like they'd put in some serious detective hours to find another lead. So apparently Wes pulled her off the streets pretty quickly. By the time we see them together, he's broken her enough to get the full story out of her and to cow her into fairly commplete compliance. She seems to know exactly how much she can get away with and when she had better toe the line. I imagine that the wrench wasn't the first time she tested him. The first couple of times he probably had to show her that he could take her down and then make her sorry. (Gosh, thinking about the particulars is squicking me. As it should I suppose.)

They also seem to know each other fairly well by this point. She knows his buttons, and he knows hers. She knows him well enough to read his fairly unexpressive reactions. When Angel says he should have killed him, Wes doesn't so much as flinch as just stop breathing for a second. But she knows him well enough to know just how much it hurts. And their interactions also seem to lack a certain heat. As if they've been going through the same moves of push, pull, and shove back for quite awhile now.

[> Nice episode, but better than Lessons? Nope, not in my ballpark -- Dochawk, 22:07:55 10/06/02 Sun

[> [> Better than Lessons? Yes! More meat, more twists, more true, more FUN! -- Darby, 07:57:35 10/07/02 Mon

[> about Cordelia (Angel S4 Premiere Spoilers) -- Robert, 22:08:46 10/06/02 Sun

>>> " Now if that very last scene is an indication that we'll get a hint of our old Cordelia back, this will have been as close to a perfect episode as we can expect."

I am sure that we will get Cordelia back. I don't know who, when or how, but I know she will return. Though I have zero evidence, I have this speculation that Cordelia spent this summer in the same place that Buffy spent last summer, which would prove that one person's heaven is another person's hell.

[> [> Re: about Cordelia (Angel S4 Premiere Spoilers) -- alcibiades, 09:44:08 10/07/02 Mon

Though I have zero evidence, I have this speculation that Cordelia spent this summer in the same place that Buffy spent last summer, which would prove that one person's heaven is
another person's hell.

But Buffy needed the rest and the peace with everything in her, she'd been living in a kind of hell before she went to heaven and had practically shut down, needed to be pulled out of it by Willow, whereas Cordelia was there for the self-promotion and because it was *right*.

[> [> [> Of course she's not having any fun... (Angel 4.1 Spoilers) -- cjl, 10:02:32 10/07/02 Mon

Top five problems for Cordelia in Paradise:

1. No mirrors (can't check the hair)

2. No clothing (can't shop, can't accessorize)

3. Evolved beyond physical sensations (no sex, no food)

4. Everybody is really, REALLY nice (no opportunity for snark)

And the big one:

5. Everybody in the higher dimensions is a superior being, so THERE'S NO ONE TO LOOK DOWN ON.


Poor kid must be going nuts.

All seriousness aside, though, what made Cordy a great character was the contrast between her superiority complex and her earthiness. At this point in her existence, Cordy enjoys the mortal world too much to be happy in Paradise. She'll be back, otherwase the PTSY (the Powers that Screw You) will never hear the end of her whining.

[> [> [> [> LOL! -- shadowkat, 12:01:25 10/07/02 Mon

"She'll be back, otherwase the PTSY (the Powers that Screw You) will never hear the end of her whining."

Just imagining Cordy whining to the PTB and driving poor
Skip and company bonkers. They'll probably regret not sending her to hell for a hundred years first. Although Cordy may consider where she is, hell.

Hmmm this is actually a cross over theme - "be careful
what you wish for?" Cordy wished for an end to the headaches and to stop being punished and is no horribly bored but painfree. Spike wished for a soul - is in complete torment. Angel wished for his son back - he put him in a box in the sea for three months. Wes wished for a girlfriend - he got Lilah (which depending on your pov and sexual preferences and gender could be a bad or good thing),
Fred and Gunn wished for alone time and well they got plenty along with the bills, Anya wanted to be a vengeance demon again, Nancy wished Ronnie was just a worm, Xander wanted to be successful, Willow wanted to be a powerful witch...moral? Don't wish. Particularly if there are vengeance demons and people like Skip wandering about granting said wishes.

[> [> [> [> [> From that line, I think Cordy misses the old Cordy as much as we do. -- cjl, 14:31:07 10/07/02 Mon

(Scene: the Elysian Fields, the ethereal plane, Cloud 9, the fountains of Paradise, the...oh, heck, you get the picture.)

SKIP: Cordelia? The boss wanted me to tell you--great job.
CORDY: Yeah, whatever.
SKIP: I mean it. Three months on the job, and you've got killer technique. I've never seen anybody seal off an extra-dimensional incursion like that. You were like a surgeon out there.
CORDY: No biggie. A little "fabric of reality" nip and tuck.
SKIP: Excuse me?
CORDY: I know a plastic surgeon in Beverly Hills. (Sighs.) Beverly Hills. I wonder if the fall fashion line is out...
SKIP: Uh, Cordelia...
CORDY: Yeah, yeah, I know, I know... "higher beings do not talk of such frivolous matters," blah blah blah. But God, Skip, I want to find a dress to match that lavender beaded purse I got last year! Is that so wrong? Just one dress?
SKIP: And you're going to wear it...when?
CORDY: Oh. Right.
SKIP: Listen, we've got a thaumaturgical virus on the borderlands. Code blue. Do you mind if we talk about this later?
CORDY: Sure. Why not. Got all the time in the world.

(Skip fades out. Cordy stays behind, and conjures a vision of the perfect ensemble: dress, shoes, and matching purse. She beams with satisfaction. Skip pops back in and admires her handiwork.)

SKIP: You've still got it, kid. (Snaps fingers, and the ensemble disappears.) Let's move.
CORDY: Yeah. Boatloads o' fun await....

[> Is Wesly? (spoiler for S4 Angel) -- Sang, 22:48:59 10/06/02 Sun

Is Wesly becoming a younger version of Giles? or Ripper? When he was taking care of things in season opening, he sounded and looked like his former mentor/preceder. Well Buffy called him 'younger version of Giles' when she met him first.

It was better than most of season three, which I didn't like that much. De'Knight is moved to Angel by Joss since Angel needed more writers, I heard.

When it ended, I asked myself, 'what? no killing human? what happened to good old kill-them-torture-them-DeKnight?' Then I realized that the boss of W&H was beheaded by Lilah. I guess I didn't count him since he was evil.

[> [> Actually, Sang, that was Cordelia -- Vickie, 23:07:30 10/06/02 Sun

"Check out Giles, the next generation."

[> Agree on the Wow! -- Deeva, 23:14:32 10/06/02 Sun

Wesley, Wesley, Wesley. Can a man get more complicated? From Giles Jr. to sleeping with the enemy(?). Me thinks that this Lilah/Wesley business will lead to very interesting goings on. The way Lilah emphasized to What's-his-name-who-is-now-headless (I don't remember his name) that Wes doesn't know anything about Angel nor does he care. Was Lilah babe defending her bed buddy for her own selfish reasons ala "What I do on my own time is none of your business. Or is she keeping her enemies close to her? Hmm. And Wes appears to be approaching a really narrow middle ground there. Not of the good, not of the bad. Hmm. Much to ponder and it's bed time. Pooh.

[> I wish Angel Were MY DAD!! -- neaux, 04:06:54 10/07/02 Mon

Ok.. I'm kidding.

but I loved the episode. and I feel as if I could have blown off the side mirror of my Dad's minivan in high school with a roman candle and He would actually have been fine with that!!

and way gotta give props to Lorne too. That was one nice Fuzzy Jacket Baby!!

[> [> Re: I wish Angel Were MY DAD!! -- tam, 07:24:14 10/07/02 Mon

so glad to read you were only kidding. i was walking across my living room when angel said "sit...down". i promptly sat. though i wouldn't have minded a spanking. hmm? loved the episode!

[> Re: WOW! (Angel S4 Premiere Spoilers) -- matching mole, 07:44:26 10/07/02 Mon

I have to agree, especially about David B. The character of Angel definitely gets my vote for 'most improved' over the course of the televised Buffyverse.

My one concern is the continuation of the Wesley/AI estrangement. As someone says above it is difficult to imagine what more Wes could have done to bring himself back into the good graces of Gunn and Fred. I can see why ME would want to draw out the estrangement for dramatic purposes but I'm concerned that if they overdo it, it will be hard to portray a reconciliation in any sort of realistic way.

Other than that I'm loving it all and looking forward to more Cordy!

An MC Escher perspective.....spoilers for Angel 4.1 Deep Down -- Rufus, 01:57:22 10/07/02 Mon

An MC Escher Perspective...spoilers for Angel 4.1 Deep Down

Angel: What you did to me is unbelievable, Connor.
But then I got stuck in a hell dimension by my girlfriend for a hundred years. So a few months under the ocean actually gave me perspective. Kind of an MC Escher perspective...but I did get time to think.
About us...about the world.
Nothing in the world is the way it ought to be.
It's harsh and cruel.
But that's why there's us.
The Champions.
Doesn't matter where we come from, what we've suffered, or even if we make a difference.
We live as though the world were as it ought to be.
To show what it can be.
You're not a part of that yet.
I hope you will be. I love you Connor.
Now, get out of my house.

Deep Down is an epsiode where they get to tie up all the loose ends left over from last season. We got a pause in the action, a cliffhanger. Angel was at the bottom of the ocean, Cordy had accended to "heaven"? Wesley had become real dark.....then we got a summer vacation before seeing what the gang had been up to.

In the opener, Angel was still at the bottom of the ocean, Gunn and Fred became surrogate parents of the deceitful Connor, and Wesley got to bang his way through the dog days....until now. I brought you the last long quote of Angel for Deep Down because it sets up what a Champion is, and it's an exclusive club Connor isn't part of...yet.

Wesley is the darkest character this season so far, he has done some surprising things. We knew that he has slept with Lilah, but we didn't know that they hooked up for "snack breaks". Then there is the little thing about Justine.....and a certain bucket. Wesley kept Justine in the closet....I guess she got the audio of he and Lilah between sessions of questioning from Wesley.....that'll teach her to slit a guys throat.

Justine: The great Wesley Wyndam Pryce, the shining becon of all that's good and pure...oh, wait, no....that was before he started banging the enemy, and keeping a slave girl in the closet.

Wesley: You were always a slave Justine, you just couldn't see the chains.

Wesley, Wesley, Wesley......you are a man of layers, some pretty sweaty ones at that. You keep a girl in the closet, with only a bucket to fill, then sleep with a vicious bitch, convincing said bitch that you know nothing......naughty, bad, oh so more interesting than when you first hit Sunnydale, Wes. Angel is dark, but hell, he is a creature of the night, Wes has caught up and in some ways passed his employer. When Lilah is confronted by the soon to be late Linwood she says....

Lilah: He doesn't know anything...there's nothing to take advantage of.
RIP Linwood: Except you.

Linwood got in a good shot before he was sent to a hell dimension of his own, but he had a point. Lilah, does she love Wes, has she underestimated him? Who knows......so far.

Back to Angel.......he was in a box...watching the fishies and can talk about it.....his perspective....his MC Escher perspective....facinating. I guess I'd better give you a bit of background on Escher....who by the way is an artist.

Here is an example of his work Ascending and decending.

"While a small circle of mathematicians had been appreciating Escher's work since the 1940s, it was in 1959 that he met Prof. MacGillavry. This lady academic arranged for Escher to give a talk about symmetry to an international meeting of crystallographers in England. Also in 1959, Escher received from friends a copy of an article by L.S. and Roger Penrose, describing various sorts of 'impossible objects'. The article mentioned some of Escher's older works, and also inspired a few. For example, the very famous print "Ascending and Descending" (1960) is based on the endless stairway described in the article. http://users.erols.com/ziring/escher_bio.htm

Using Escher is in keeping with the constant ups and downs of Angel and the world. The stair motif in some of Eschers works speaks to that process of constant ascending and descending that is life. We are up then down, but always moving. Angels speech at the end is an attempt fo illustrate his understanding of his role as a champion, one that may never make a difference, but is still worth it, if for any other reason, to show the world, and everyone in it...what life could be like.

[> Re: An MC Escher perspective.....spoilers for Angel 4.1 Deep Down -- Cactus Watcher, 06:13:15 10/07/02 Mon

Escher is a very good analogy for AtS, not just the ups and downs, but the idea that things are neve quite what they seem and that things are forever changing, dark becomes light, light becomes dark, and so on. ;o)

[> [> Re: An MC Escher perspective.....spoilers for Angel 4.1 Deep Down -- Tillow, 07:21:54 10/07/02 Mon

"Escher is a very good analogy for AtS, not just the ups and downs, but the idea that things are neve quite what they seem and that things are forever changing, dark becomes light,
light becomes dark, and so on. ;o)"

And that patterns always turn in on themselves.

One of the interesting things about Escher is that he used mathematical formulas to derive his designs. Perhaps it's almost a certainty that a certain pattern will repeat again this year on Angel. The one that comes to mind right off the bat is *daddy issues*! Liam had them. Connor most certainly has them and Wesley has them though we never really got to see that plot fleshed out. Perhaps we'll see the resolution of these plots and it will complete and Escher-like picture.

And there's always the demon inside Angel, waiting to get out. Justine: He'll turn on you, you know. Is that Angel's constant pattern? Turning in on himself, lashing out at those he loves, and then being forced to atone.

Esher-like, indeed!

[> [> [> MC Escher often dealt with distorted reflections, too... -- Darby, 07:53:33 10/07/02 Mon

[> Re: An MC Escher perspective.....spoilers for Angel 4.1 Deep Down -- ponygirl, 07:04:33 10/07/02 Mon

Let us all pause to hail Wesley! Doing what he has to do, even if it means keeping Justine in a cage, though maybe that was a bonus. Maybe deep down expecting to be welcomed back for his rescuing actions but never asking for it. Just walking away. He seemed to be what Angel was talking about with the champion speech. It seems that Wesley has completed his transformation into Angel, complete with the ambiguity, the darkness, the complex motives. And what role does that leave for Angel?

Escher, as CW mentioned, is all about shifting perspectives, and transformations. The black turns into white, or is it the other way around? Wesley may be living in the darkness, but his motives seem pure, while Connor exists in the reverse. I wonder if we're in for any other shifts in perspective? I'm certainly experiencing one right now since it's been a long while since I was excited about AtS.

[> [> Re: An MC Escher perspective.....spoilers for Angel 4.1 Deep Down -- shadowkat, 07:42:02 10/07/02 Mon

Will agree - outside of maybe Fred and Connor, Wes was the best thing in this episode. I really enjoyed the continued exploration of his character. The last time I got this interested in Angel was well Loyalty last year.

"Wesley may be living in the darkness, but his motives seem pure, while Connor exists in the reverse. I wonder if we're in for any other shifts in perspective?"

Not sure I agree about Wes' motives. Are they pure? (shrug)
Also even if his motives are pure - does that justify his actions? Wes/Connor do seem to be an interesting study in contrast. Both have serious daddy issues. Both are ruthless.
And both believe they are right. And Connor is the way he is because Wes tried to save him from Angel and Wes has gone as dark as he is, because he failed in the attempt and was betrayed by Justine?

I found Wes to be very Machiavellian in this episode. A perfect example of a man willing to do what is necessary to accomplish his ends. He reminds me a bit of Ripper. And I was reminded of the fact that actually Wes was always a bit like this. Remember how he went against Giles and SG to grab Faith for the Watcher council way back in Season 3 Btvs? To Wes - the ends justify the means, no matter how dark the means. I'm not completely sure why he felt it was necessary to retrieve Angel from the ocean, but he obviously did. Or why he continues his torrid affair with Lilah. But I can't wait to find out. I've been waiting three years for the writers to delve into this character more thoroughly and they finally are!

Now if we can just see a bit more of old Angelus, I'll be very happy. ;-)

[> [> [> Re: An MC Escher perspective.....spoilers for Angel 4.1 Deep Down -- ponygirl, 08:30:12 10/07/02 Mon

Yes, we don't really know what Wesley is up to, that's why he's suddenly become so fascinating. I was assuming that Justine had a fairly accurate take on Wesley's motives in finding Angel, that he wanted to be forgiven. Could be wrong though. And what an interesting dynamic with Justine and Wesley. It was a completely fabulous scene with Lilah and Wes in bed, seeming so affectionate and somewhat normal, and then to have Wesley get up and go find Justine in the closet. The implications, the suggestions of Wesley's darkness. So much dark chewy goodness there! Wesley rules!

[> [> [> Payback time -- alcibiades, 08:48:35 10/07/02 Mon

I'm not completely sure why he felt it was necessary to retrieve Angel from the ocean, but he obviously did.

Payback time.

In response to Angel' attempt to murder him while he was lying helpless, Wesley's given him life from his own body, while Angel is lying helpless. If that is not turning the other cheek, I don't know what is.

We all get what we deserve.

Wesley's just worked off a serious amount of the karmic debt he owed Angel for being the unintentional means by which Holtz kidnapped and corrupted Connor.

As for Lilah, first I was wondering whether Wes is trying to manipulate W*H from the inside by plotting with her to make headway to the top. Perhaps. Although since it involved a human death -- perhaps not as well -- and he does seem to be enjoying the sex. Always a real motive for continuing to have sex. Since last year's finale, I've thought that Wesley and Lilah have a strong reek of Buffy and Spike about them -- like ME was having so much fun doing a destructive sexual relationship, they didn't want to let go of the trope...

We all get what we deserve.

Wesley and Lilah: Great sex mixed in with intense spiritual scourging.

So what does that say about the audience?

I loved the shot of Justine handcuffed near the boat as Wesley drives away after tossing the key out of her reach and the lingering shot on Justine's face as the VO says "I would have done anything for him" before it switches to Fred and continues, "And now I just want to cause him pain."

A warning of what is to come for Wesley by Justine's hands. Pretty much, I guess.

I suppose if Wesley is being Machiavellan -- he is being so in the original sense of the term, the sense that usually gets left out of colloquial use, where the Prince is willing to do wrong -- to corrupt his own virtue -- to promote happiness and virtue among the citizenry -- to help the wrong's of the world.

Unfortunately the kind of undercover work Wesley is doing almost always tends to have a spillover effect...on the soul.

He may not be counting on that or he may know it already.

And since we all get what we deserve it may he probably thinks he deserves it anyway.

[> [> [> [> One more thing -- on martyrology -- alcibiades, 09:02:48 10/07/02 Mon

I suppose if Wesley is being Machiavellan -- he is being so in the original sense of the term, the sense that usually gets left out of colloquial use, where the Prince is willing to do wrong -- to corrupt his own virtue -- to promote happiness and virtue among the citizenry -- to help right the wrong's of the world.

Oh, I forgot to mention.

There's a whole ton of martyrology underlying this pose.

Taking the sins of the world upon yourself and not crying out your deeds.

Just another one for the crucifixion/martyrdom scoreboard.

[> [> [> [> Re: Payback time -- shadowkat, 10:25:56 10/07/02 Mon

I think you are partly right on Wes' actions regarding Angel. But I would extend those actions to AI (ie. Fred and Gunn). I love Fred's question - why Wes didn't warn them about Connor a lot sooner. And Wes, somewhat contained, states something to the effect that he didn't see it as being necessary. They were safer if they didn't know. And he knew Connor would not kill them, because they were human.

I felt quite a bit of vengeance in his actions towards both Justine and Angel. These two people turned his life upside down. Justine by cutting his throat. Angel by not forgiving him. And then Gunn and Fred by shutting him out. In a way by using Justine to free Angel - Wes as you state gets them all back by showing them:

1. Without me, Angel would still be at the bottom of the ocean. See you need me, you can barely function without me. He's proven this twice. Once in The Price, when Gunn requires Wes' aid to save Fred's life and now in Deep Down.

2. One-upmanship. Wes was clever enough to figure out Justine was behind what happened to Angel and Connor did in his father. While Gunn and Fred were suckered by Connor all some and going after dead ends.

3. Wes proves to Angel that he not only needs Wes, but that Wes is the better man and can still help him. Very ironic
scene with Wes giving Angel his blood.

Justine/Wesely. As I stated this summer - and everyone shook their head over thinking it was impossible - I see a major S&M relationship here. Very twisted. Very dark.
And all about getting off on hurting the other person. Justine is the masochist described in Marquis de Sade's book. One who likes to be hurt partly as a matrydom and partly as a way of atoning. Wes is right when he says she got off on the slavery with Holtz. And Holtz and Justine fed off each other. Wes sees right through Justine - possibly b/c Wes now sees the darkness in his own soul.

You wonder why we enjoy watching this? What it says about us? Well Angel and Btvs is different than watching NYPD Blue or the Sheild and getting off on people being shot and beaten. In Angel and Btvs we are examining through metaphor the darkness in our own souls. See I find these shows more real and more interesting than comforting shows such as Seventh Heaven or Gilmore Girls. Because I would rather look at the darkness, examine it, deal with it - then pretend it doesn't exist or turn away from it. I also think it's important to determine why certain acts of darkness intrigue me, seem interesting or even cathartetic. I remember when I wrote my S&M essays...examining these themes and in doing so learning quite a bit about myself. It's when we hide from ourselves, pretend that there is no monster inside us, that we are not capable of horrible acts that we are most likely to erupt and do them. Making a conscious choice not to do something, not to hurt someone, not to justify an evil act through a Machiavellian defense is far better than pushing it down into our subconscious and pretending we aren't capable of such things. Good people are capable of monstrous things under the right circumstances. And Ats and Btvs show that rather well. And they do it in a way that is not gratuitous or exploitive.
Actually I think they clearly make us flinch. Film noir has done this for ages.



Ok Gotta go. Friend showed up for lunch and is wondering what the heck I'm doing...LOL! Later. SK

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Payback time -- Cheryl, 13:35:31 10/07/02 Mon

"1. Without me, Angel would still be at the bottom of the ocean. See you need me, you can barely function without me. He's proven this twice. Once in The Price, when Gunn requires Wes' aid to save Fred's life and now in Deep Down."

Since you brought this up, didn't Gunn say last night that they'd already gone to Wes *twice* for help (before saving Angel)? I couldn't come up with the other time - what was it? Or didn't I hear that line right?

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Payback time -- Rufus, 14:44:01 10/07/02 Mon

The line Wesley used to the gang:

He'll need more blood....I'm fresh out

I think in some way Wesley is attepmting to set right what went so wrong last year between he and Angel. Of course when Angel though he was speaking to Connor it was Wes that heard the words "I should have killed you"....Justine got quite the chuckle out of that one. In regards to Justine I agree with what Hallucination Lorne said to Angel:

You want to bitch slap sour puss over there for practice?

The next exchange between Angel and son was great

Angel: So, how was your summer? Mine was fun. Saw some fish. Went mad with hunger...hallucinated a whole bunch.

Connor: You deserve worse.

Angel: Cause I killed Holtz, except I didn't.
I tried telling you that while you were offshore dumping me.
But I didn't know the whole score...Holtz killed himself.
Actually, he had your buddy Justine do it with an ice pick...just to make you hate me.

Connor: Even if...you still deserved it.

Angel: What I deserve is open to debate. But understand..there's a difference between wishing vengeance on someone and taking it.
So now the question becomes...what do you deserve?

Connor tries to get out of there and Angel shoves him into a wall.

Angel: Daddy's not finished talking.
Wesley told me everything that's been going on.

So, Angel had a heart to heart with Wesley...I wonder what the two of them have cooked up? My hunch is that Wes just may have more plans than Fred or Gunn will ever find out about...they just aren't cut from the same scheming cloth Wesley has donned. I think Lilah may end up more than just screwed.

Now, to revenge....the gift that keeps giving beyond the grave. Holtz may have been too tired to get the job done, but he wasn't beyond destroying Connor to make sure Angel had a parting gift or two. I believe in a twisted, sick, self righteous way, Holtz did love Connor, but, I don't ever for a moment think that he ever forgot how Connor began. Connors power would have been a daily reminder of that demon past. And Holtz saw demons one way....I don't think his love for Connor would change that. What we once were informs all that we become.. Darla was so right....Holtz...he hated demons more than he loved anything..his revenge, his first love.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Payback time -- alcibiades, 15:24:48 10/07/02 Mon

Not sure it was a heart to heart. Wesley filled in Angel in factually, but if it had been a heart to heart, Wesley would not have left.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Payback time -- Rufus, 17:04:49 10/07/02 Mon

"Heart to heart" is not meant to be taken as emotionally as much as for the amount of information Wesley had to have given Angel. I have to wonder why the two of them played it cool when Wes brought Angel back to the hotel.....Wes only spoke to the gang. I think something is up.

[> [> [> Wesley's motives .....spoilers for Angel 4.1 Deep Down -- Robert, 10:55:07 10/07/02 Mon

>>> "Not sure I agree about Wes' motives. Are they pure? (shrug)"

This is a tough call, because I no longer know what his motives are. If his base motive is still to protect the world from Armageddon and to protect innocents from demons, then I do think his motives are pure. It is everything in between that stinks to high heaven.

[> [> [> [> Re: Wesley's motives .....spoilers for Angel 4.1 Deep Down -- shadowkat, 11:34:08 10/07/02 Mon

I've been wondering if Wes' motives or anyone's for that matter are "pure"? People by and large are fairly selfishly motivated - sort of have to be to some extent to survive.

Wes has some interesting baggage that we've only gotten the briefest of hints at.

1. Father problems. I have a hunch that Wes went into the Watcher Council to prove something to his father and his failure didn't help. Now he's been fired from AI another failure? And he used to run it.

2. Angel Investigations. Wes has suffered quite a bit of abuse here. He gets shot to save Gunn. Angel fires him and abuses him at different points. After Faith tortures Wes, Angel takes Faith in. Wes is injured by an explosion at the first place of business. Now, when he tries to save Angel's kid from Angel - Angel refuses to ever forgive him. I can see why he's resentful. Afterall he forgave Angel and he watched Angel forgive people who had committed worse crimes against him and others: Darla, Faith, both come to mind.
(Don't get me wrong - I understand why Angel feels this is a different circumstance - Wes' actions forever changed Angel's relationship with Connor. But from Wes' pov it may seem harsh.) And Wes was betrayed by Justine.

3. Wes is mighty lonely. He's always struck me as lonely.
And he suffered some major set-backs last year. The loss of Fred to his best friend Gunn. The loss of Angel. The loss of his job. Failure. I can see why he and Lilah gravitated to each other. Two lonely, angry, frightened people seeking comfort.

So I think Wes' motivations are a combination of the Machiavellian view - I'll do what's best for the universe.
(His decision to steal Connor had a Machiavellian undertone, his actions with Justine even more so.)
And a combo of his own desire to succeed, survive, prove something, get a piece of the pie, and get back at the people who hurt him.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Wesley's motives .....spoilers for Angel 4.1 Deep Down -- Rufus, 14:54:54 10/07/02 Mon

So I think Wes' motivations are a combination of the Machiavellian view - I'll do what's best for the universe.
(His decision to steal Connor had a Machiavellian undertone, his actions with Justine even more so.)
And a combo of his own desire to succeed, survive, prove something, get a piece of the pie, and get back at the people who hurt him.

One thing I notice...why is it that whenever someone tries to get back at people that hurt them, that a whole new pack of victims is created?

I think that Angel and Wes may have talked at length and have a new mission that won't be apparent to any of the others.

[> Relativity -- Arethusa, 08:18:46 10/07/02 Mon

There was a visually very interesting movie in the 80s called "Labyrinth," about a girl who must rescue her little half-brother from the King of the Goblins (David Bowie). It included a very Escheresque scene, where the girl had to wander up and down staircases, based, perhaps, on Escher's "Relativity."
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/brendandj/RELATIVITY.jpg
Another non-crossover to BtVS's labyrinth?
As Tillow said, the staircases twist and turn back into themselves, seemingly twisting everyone around and upside down. And that's what we saw in the episode. Not only is Lilah not actively sleeping with Wesley for information(she may want to, but evidently in several months he's told her nothing)-W & H knew nothing about the affair. She is called into the office for a repremand, then beheads her boss. (Puts a new meaning on headhunter, doesn't it?) Angel forgives Conor, than banishes him. Fred cares for Conor like a mother or sister, then tazers him when she learns of his treachery. Cordelia's in a Higher Plane, but is bored stiff. Wesley refuses to overtly help AI, but has been searching for Angel secretly all summer.
Thery're up, they're down, they're inside out, and they can't tell which way they're heading, but they have to act as if they do. If they don't, they'll drown.

[> [> Re: Relativity -- Rufus, 14:52:18 10/07/02 Mon

I also think of Angel's words show that he is becoming more complex than his more simple black/white...right/wrong attitude used to be. He understands that no matter how a champion starts, even if they never make a difference, that the fact that they attempt to show the world how life could be makes a difference in itself.

I saw that pic of
Relativity...the themes of reality, space and time, all match up so well to the multiple realities of the Angel and Buffyverse. Nothing is as it seems and someone is always more than meets the eye....take Fred..she seems to have a bit of a sadistic streak in her...look at how many times she zapped Connor....she did that because she felt so betrayed.....and that anger of betrayal seems to bring out a beast in Fred...she only loved Connor and in her words..Now I only want to hurt him.....ouch!