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The season four big bad is -- skeeve, 15:28:09 10/29/02 Tue

Skip.

When offered the chance to become a "higher being", Cordy should have declined. As a rule, beware of offers that are only good for the moment. At the very least get the answer to "how come?". What was that about transcending love? What does transcending love mean? Just why would I want something that transcended love.

Cordy hasn't fared too well since taking Skip's offer.

BTW remember what Skip was doing when we first met him? One can argue that Skip's job was one that needed doing, but someone who could and would do that job is someone I would be scared to be around.

OK, the big bad might really be Skip's current employer.
[> Re: The season four big bad is -- ZachsMind, 17:37:37 10/29/02 Tue

I wasn't aware that Angel actually had season-long "Big Bads." I mean I don't think Angel quite uses the same kind of plot outlines and inner workings that Buffy does. It's a dramatically different approach to storytelling, from my perspective. Some meanies die immediately after being introduced in a given episode. Monster of the week types. Others remain around for many seasons, like the lawyer firm.

If there was a Big Bad for season four, I'd say it was Holtz, but he wasn't in the entire season. Just the latter half of it, and he wasn't really so much a Big Bad as an old nemesis of Angel's and a catalyst for a lot of other stuff. The structure of Angel seems a bit more complex.
[> [> That was season three -- Angelpro, 20:41:39 10/29/02 Tue

Packing my bags cause I'm Hellbound tonight. Spoiler 7.1 -- Deb, 00:02:00 10/30/02 Wed

I have a class in Sociology of Religion on Tuesday afternoons. We were discussing something that got me thinking about Buffy, and so I commented upon it. The world apocked in the classroom. Big lecture from Prof. on demons and vampires are not subjects you casually discuss because they are real and talking about them calls them to you, and you place your soul into "The Hands of an Angry God." lecture, and in true Calvinist form, I was headed to hell. Well, I've always rather thought I was already there, but anyway, at break some of the students told me never to mention Buffy in this area because it is so hard-core Southern Baptist. (Not that I'm saying being Southern Baptist is scary or anything.) Just sharing my day.

Question: same as posed down below somewhere. Watched 7.1 again tonight, and caught something I didn't catch last time. In the last scene -- Spike listening to, I don't know, some of the voices in his head personaified. One doom-and -gloom character, whom I have not acquainted with, was telling him he was "No. 17," and the former mayor, saying to him, something to the effect of: And you thought getting your soul back would allow you to be your own man." Does anyone have any idea what is being communicated in this scene?
[> Re: Make that Apocolypted. It went "boom!!!" -- deb, 00:05:12 10/30/02 Wed

[> Re: Packing my bags cause I'm Hellbound tonight. Spoiler 7.1 -- Rufus, 00:48:26 10/30/02 Wed

Big lecture from Prof. on demons and vampires are not subjects you casually discuss because they are real and talking about them calls them to you, and you place your soul into "The Hands of an Angry God." lecture, and in true Calvinist form, I was headed to hell.

Hmmmm so the Prof doesn't much believe in the metaphorical.

As for what you noticed on the show....I think about it this way. The "whateveritis entity" wants something from both Spike and Buffy. They are both where "it" wants them to be. They have something "it" wants....so what is it. Going further...you have a vampire with a soul that found it's way home...he is conflicted, tortured with reliving memories through a different perspective.....so what does a "whateveritis entity" do? Well, exactly what you saw...it makes Spike feel that he has no options, but "it". Also explains why "it" may take on the form of a comforting Buffy.....much better than the "not so pleasant Buffy" who can tell that the basement is not a good place for Spike to be.
[> Re: Packing my bags cause I'm Hellbound tonight. Spoiler 7.1 -- MaeveRigan, 05:21:05 10/30/02 Wed

Deb, your prof and fellow students are obviously out of the loop as far as Buffy is concerned. And Rufus is right--they've missed the point if they're going apocalyptic because they think BtVS is literally about demons and vampires. Some of them are probably the among those who want to ban Harry Potter books, so there may be no help for them. But fear not!

If you want to defend Buffy in the Bible Belt, check out these two recent articles:

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2002/136/31.0.html

http://www.thedoormagazine.com/buffy.html

As noted, some fanatics are beyond help, but some people might be willing to open their minds a little wider.
[> [> Re: Many, many, thanks (for the correct spelling too) -- Deb, 05:40:22 10/30/02 Wed

[> No. 17, Deb -- KdS, 05:53:52 10/30/02 Wed

Don't know quite what question you were asking, but the Initiative (the secret government agency who put the chip in Spike to start with) referred to him as "Hostile 17". Probably that rather than any numerology (unless there was a numerological meaning in the first place).
[> [> Re: Ohhh. You got the right question Spoiler 6 and 7 -- Deb, 06:12:24 10/30/02 Wed

And your answer gives me a new perspective on things. I never did like Riley. What if there are hundreds or thousands of vampires walking around with chips in their heads? That would make the entire scene make sense to me. S/W, the only one with a soul, might be aware of what is going to happen and why. What if those chips do more than control the impulse to feed on the living? What if there is an army of the undead, who move much quicker than Zombies, just waiting to be summoned to duty? What if the chip is the real reason why Riley did not kill Spike when he was hanging on to those eggs last season? I suppose this was already talked to death last season.
[> [> Re: No. 17--Adam -- luna, 06:49:08 10/30/02 Wed

The entity you saw on 7.1, who called Spike "Number 17," was Adam, a cyborg monster created by the woman (someone else will know her name!) who was a scientist for the Intitiative. Adam killed her and was generally the Big Bad of the season, as were the others who spoke to Spike during that scene (each the Big Bad of a previous season), implying I assume that they were all manifestations of some horror that hasn't gone away. Interesting that Spike seems to see Buffy as the last of these Spirits of Evil Past.
[> [> Hostile/ Number -- Tchaikovsky, 07:11:46 10/30/02 Wed

Was anybody else interested by the change from Hostile 17 to Number 17? This suggested a few things to me.

1) Spike just isn't 'hostile' anymore. The BBW is taunting him.

2) Spike is not a hostile in the BBW's book, so it was dropped, (much less interesting).

Remember 'Lessons' is Joss Whedon penned, so it ain't going to be sloppy writing. It's there for a reason.

TCH
[> [> It's also a reference to "The Prisoner" -- Rahael, 07:14:43 10/30/02 Wed

I've never seen the series, but CJL and Age have discussed it - you could do a search in the archives.

Also, Doug Petrie in one of his commentaries for Season 4 talked about how the Initiative/chipped Spike storyline references "The Prisoner" and "Clockwork Orange".

I think Prisoner is even more apposite at the moment cos when The Prisoner finally "escapes" and goes back to his flat in London, it's made subtely clear he hasn't escaped at all. He is still the Prisoner.

Will Spike ever be more than Hostile 17? More than a number?
Existential Scoobies -- The Second Evil, 07:30:34 10/30/02 Wed

The Fiction section is now completely up, and so is the miscellany section. I'm still working on converting OnM's stuff and the essays. I knew there were a lot of them, but sheesh. I didn't realize it'd grown to that many files! But I kept the one to two paragraph excerpt leadin, since so many people have told me they like that part. Just letting you know right now, that doubles the number of files to code. Wahhhh.

Hehe.
[> If you want some help coding, gimme a shout. -- LadyStarlight, 07:42:56 10/30/02 Wed

[> [> see my response to Masq about that. ;-) -- The Second Evil, 09:49:35 10/30/02 Wed

[> author names? -- luna, 08:48:48 10/30/02 Wed

Any chance of adding the poster's name for the essays, etc.? I know that probably is asking you to redo everything--maybe next time.

Thanks for this--it's great!
[> [> continuing issues for Existential Scoobies - PLEASE READ! -- Solitude1056, 09:04:24 10/30/02 Wed

Unfortunately, I figured out I can't add the translation access "alt" element. Okay, in english: when you hold your mouse over a link, sometimes a little description pops up. This is very useful if you're using a program which translates a webpage into auditory messages (such as some computer programs for the blind), or if you're using a translation program if you're not an english speaker. The problem is that the "alt" key, which signifies this little label, is also used by the nifty program that makes the images flip back and forth. I didn't realize this until after I'd done all the major coding. There is a way around it - because I've done it on other pages I've designed - but those were in a different format and so the conflict may be a code-specific issue.

Secondly, I did add the names of the authors to the essays, but not the fiction. There's not only a great deal of fiction squeezed into a small space, but I'm trying to keep the width to a minimum. Not everyone keeps their computer screen on the highest resolution - some folks around here are still using 800x600 for various reasons.

I'm still pondering. No one ever really responded to my queries about other additions to the pages - FAQ, Chat, etc, and where to put them. Under Literary? As a preface to the link for the Forums? Under the Introduction/Welcome page? As their own pages with their own menu links?

On top of that, as long as we're talking about the fiction/essays/etc, I was considering - now that we're getting up in terms of the numbers of articles - that perhaps it's time to do a page for 2000, 2001, 2002... that way, there would be room to list a bit more. In that case, I'd also probably kill the halfway-step of the excerpts. Part of the reason I'm not planning on rearranging the fiction pages (the essays revision was a test, originally) is because there are excerpt pages. That intermediary step gives you all the information as well as a short bit of the story, essay, or review.
[> [> [> FAQ, chat, etc -- Masq, 09:30:31 10/30/02 Wed

Is this the ATPoBtVS discussion board FAQ? And the board chatroom? I think there should be one link that takes you to links concerning general board stuff, like the FAQ, the chat room, the Meet the Posters pages, the meaning of your board name, etc.

Wee! I'm excited about getting these files out of my main directory. Could you also house the ATPo board links page, too??

Thanks : )
[> [> [> [> Moving pages over -- The Second Evil, 09:45:39 10/30/02 Wed

Right now it's broken up into several areas:

"About us" has all the posters information, including the bios, how to make them, a list of current bios, and how to submit your own. Also has the parodies & alternate screennames list.

"The Forum" and "ATPoBtVS" are direct links, but I could change "the forum" to be the FAQ, with a link at the top to go to the Forum itself. That means one more click, but it's still only two clicks through. I don't like doing more than two clicks - the FC pages are three clicks, with the excerpts in there.

I've also set up the chat already - it's at www.atpobtvs.com/existentialscoobies/chat.shtml. There's just not a link to it from the pages; I haven't created that yet.

If anyone wants to take a look at the Links page on the ES site, and then recode the ATPo Board links to fit, I'd be much appreciative. You can use the basic coding instructions on the site - click on "Literary" and look for the link at the bottom for instructions on submitting. It's not exactly the coding required but close enough that it'd save me a lot of time.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Moving pages over -- Masq, 10:15:51 10/30/02 Wed

Well, you're much more on the ball than me. : ) Sorry, should have checked out the whole ES site before typing.

If you want the discussion board link to link to the FAQ, I have made the actual discussion board link in the FAQ bigger and easier to find. I don't think it's a bad idea to send them to the FAQ. I think the Bronze did/does the same thing. Forces folks to read the rules before they enter. I could do the same thing on my site, too, if I get sadistic enough. : )

The ES site itself is very impressive--organization, style, and of course your tireless efforts are appreciated!!

Masq
[> Is the 'line breaks' issue D'Herb raised a few weeks ago a problem? If so... -- OnM, 10:53:14 10/30/02 Wed

... please let me know, and I will see if I can correct things.

In fact if there is anything I can do do make your job easier for my stuff, likewise do clue me. There's no BtVS essay to write this week, and my introductory work on my company's website update has been handed over to our coder, so I do have some spare time for a change. Take advantage while you can, 'cos it never lasts very long!

:-)
[> [> about coding... -- The Second Evil, 12:59:54 10/30/02 Wed

This time around, the coding is a great deal easier. As for dealing with your posts, OnM, by the time I've dragged them out of the archives, the line breaks have already been cleaned up. (Bwahahaha.) AFAIK, when I've copied from the post itself, I've not had any problems.

You can, if you like, go check out what movie reviews are missing. I've also created a page for episode reviews, and I'd like to start putting your weekly BtVS reviews there. I've also toyed with having The Belly of the Beast Anti-Reviews posted alongside yours, just for kicks. If you're up for it, coding is now a simpler procedure. At the top of each file, put the following line:

<!--#insert file="menu3.php"-->

Use the following for your title, author, date of publication lines:
<b>Title of piece</b><br>
Author - Date</p><p>

Skip a line and put your regularly coded piece in there, remembering to put </p><p> between each paragraph. Then, at the very end of the file, put the following line:

<!--#insert file="footer2.php">

That's all there is to it. Save it as a text file & email it to me, and I'll upload it at the next go-round.
Behind the scenes on "Villains" -- Sophist, 09:46:18 10/30/02 Wed

Today's LA Times had an article on the increasing willingness of TV shows to allow graphic gore on the screen. Here's a very interesting passage:

"'[P]rosthetic bodies,' as they're sometimes called, are used for special occcasions -- as in an episode of the WB's [sic] 'Buffy the Vampire Slayer' last season in which the title character got shot. 'We did an incredibly realistic torso of Buffy for an insert shot of them digging the bullet out of her chest,' said effects artist Robert Hall. Network executives decided it was a bit too good. 'I was watching the show with some of my friends and was all "Watch! Watch! Here comes this great shot! Uh, well, that's where it was supposed to be.'"

Reading between the lines, it seems as if the original scene called for the surgeons to remove the bullet, but that Willow removed it magically in order to make the scene less graphic. If so, would the scene as originally planned have changed our interpretation of the episode?
[> Re: Behind the scenes on "Villains" -- Purple Tulip, 10:31:05 10/30/02 Wed

You know, I remember reading a wildfeed or something for this episode a little while before it aired, and I swear it said that Willow removed the bullet with her hand, then she healed Buffy with magic. So when I watched the episode, I was surprised that the scene had not been what I had read.
[> [> script seems to back that up -- yez, 10:49:39 10/30/02 Wed

Maybe Hall's "them" doesn't refer to the surgeons but to ME and how they filmed Willow's extraction of the bullet. The shooting script seems to indicate that Willow was supposed to remove the bullet all along. (http://studiesinwords.de/shooting/villains1.html)

yez
[> [> [> Scripts question. -- Darby, 11:28:32 10/30/02 Wed

Does anyone know why Psyche has stopped posting shooting scripts on the site? Nothing from the current BtVS or AtS seasons has gone up, when it used to take less than 2 weeks. It's always enhanced the experience for me, and I miss being able to see the words after having watched the eps - and being able to look stuff up. I'm hoping someone here is more tapped into the internet rumor mill than I am.
[> [> [> In that case, -- Sophist, 12:23:43 10/30/02 Wed

I would assume that the removal would not have involved the use of magic. It's the magic that allows a much less gory extraction scene. OTOH, I'm not sure how Willow could remove a bullet without magic.....

The other reason I think it was the surgeons is that I always found it a little odd that Willow went to the hospital before searching for Warren. If the surgeons removed the bullet, then it would make a little more sense (at least to me).
[> [> [> [> How 'bout this? -- yez, 12:40:37 10/30/02 Wed

Or maybe the graphic part wasn't in the *actual* extraction of the bullet but just while the surgeons are rooting around in her chest *trying* to locate the bullet, stop the bleeding, etc. So "them" [the surgeons] are "digging," but the digging isn't working, and then Willow comes in and finishes the job. Make more sense?
[> [> [> [> [> That would work -- Sophist, 13:07:32 10/30/02 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> Re: How 'bout this? -- Sheri, 13:21:57 10/30/02 Wed

Agreed...

if the only trouble with showing the doctors trying to remove the bullet was that it was too gory, why not just reshoot the doctors? I doubt that they SWITCHED from having the doctors remove the bullet to having Willow remove it. I'm fairly confident that Willow would have always been in that scene... that her floating out the bullet is a constant... whereas the medical stuff needed to be reshot.

course, the hospital scene ended up being a bit lame --Buffy bleeding to death and all they seem to do is go dab dab with cotton balls-- Would have much preferred to see the gore instead of the half-assed thing we ended up with. Not sure how this is any different from something you'd see on ER, but I suppose you gotta be a "hospital"-genre show in order to receive gore approval. Ah, well.
[> [> [> [> [> [> And what about Warren? -- yez, 13:36:10 10/30/02 Wed

Good point about ER.

But also, what, we can see someone's skin ripped off (over and over again -- they keep showing it in the "previously ons"), but we can't see an operation?

I'm not sure why this ocurred to me, but I was wondering if the too much and too good could potentially refer to maybe too much exposure of Buffy's breasts? I know it doesn't fit with the theme of the article, but maybe Hall made an assumption about why it was cut that wasn't quite right? I don't know... doesn't seem to make much sense.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: And what about Warren? -- celticross, 17:19:50 10/30/02 Wed

I've wondered about that, because in the end scene that we saw, they not only left her dressed, they didn't even take off her overshirt!
ATTN Rob - out of sight, out of mind (Spring Flings and Sacrifices) -- Rahael, 09:49:02 10/30/02 Wed

Just a few thoughts for you here - a lot has been covered already. Apologies if I inadvertantly repeat someone else's point.

Of course, a pretty big theme is invisibility. Outsiders, like Marcie become 'invisible'. Not only 'invisible' to the people around you, invisible to yourself when you look in the mirror, but invisible in books and plays and histories. Or, your real nature becomes invisible. Instead the only image you can find of yourself is a distorted prejudiced one - that of Shylock the Jew in 'Merchant'.

We can see in the flashbacks that Marcie slowly internalises her invisibility. Other people's perceptions of her become true for her. She has no body left. Interestingly, her revenge on Cordelia is on Cordy's body, very physical, very visible. It's almost as if she has grown to hate all those who are 'seen', all that can be felt.

I wonder if there is some sense of a 'rite of passage' here - where Marcie gets rid of her changing, growing body, which has moved from childhood to adolescence. I only think this (and I think it's reaching) because we get so many mentions of 'Springtime' (associated with youth) and sex. Cordy is the beautiful May Queen. She also appears to be 'sexually available' because we know that that's what her date Mitch is hoping.

Marcie on the other hand, seems like someone who is not growing, unchanged, fixed. Now that she's gotten rid of her body, her physicality, all that's left is her bodyless emotions. There almost is a connection, in her invisible otherness, with vampires. Angel makes a remark about how it's not fun not to see yourself when you look in the mirror.

Charles Phipps, in his annotations points out that originally, May Queens may have been 'sacrifices'- and Cordy does indeed end up as a 'sacrifice'. But there's another, rather less obvious sacrifice too - Buffy. She too is tied up. It's obviously forshadowing PG yet again. Buffy, all dressed up in her ritual dress. Isn't it the Spring Fling she goes to with Angel, Xander and the others? Perhaps we are being pointed to the real 'May Queen', the Lamb, being readied for the holy sacrifice. Because, what does she say to the Master, when she comes back to life? "I may be dead, but I'm still pretty!" (Buffy even tells us that she was the 'may queen' back in her old school.)

I think most of the previous annotations have pointed to how Shylock and Marcie correspond - the outsider who becomes filled up with rage against society. Did anyone point out that Marcie exacts almost the same revenge? Flesh? That she wants to cut out herself?

The pound of flesh for the girl without a body. Here's another correspondence with the other 'Other' in the ep - Angel, the Vampire, who 'no longer feeds on humans' as Giles remarks. Also, Vampires are 'invisible' for ordinary Sunnydale residents, who'd rather pretend they didn't exist.

There are several ironic asides about Buffy, apart from the 'May Queen' thing.

In her speech, Cordy talks about 'not only her right, but her responsibility'. When she says this, the camera cuts to Buffy. We know who really does have duties and responsibilities in Sunnydale.

Then we have the comment that Cordy makes, that "just because the story is all about him doesn't make him the hero!". Which is a little meta point about the story of BtVS being all 'about Buffy'. But in this ep, she's not in centre stage too much.

After all, as Cordy says:

"This is all about me! Me, me me!"

(but, you can read metaphorically into the young girl to be sacrificed theme, and say - it's also about the hero, the Slayer. Another interesting thing about older non-Christian celebrations of Spring. Isn't Diana involved? And couldn't you almost see her as a Slayer like figure? Willow (the wood, Willow) features in older English spring celebrations)

She tells the teacher that 'I have all these thoughts, and I'm pretty sure they all contradict each other'

The Cordy we see in this ep is complex and has depth. She is empathetic, and cruel all at the same time.

Another theme is that of multiple 'realities', but not in the SF sense. (Cordy says to Buffy: "you were popular? In what alternate universe") Everyone has different perceptions of their world, and they shape the world that they live in. Marcie sees herself as the lonely outcast - so does Angel.

And Cordy herself contains all sorts of contradictions. Is she really 'seen' by other people?

She tells Buffy

"You think I'm never lonely?......It's not like any of them really know me"

Moreover, we get a huge clue right at the beginning that not even Cordy is truly 'seen'. Her boyfriend can't even tell what colour her eyes are. And he sees her only in terms of one thing:

"Oh, it's not her arm I'm looking to be on"

Of course Cordy objectifies him too - worrying when he gets beaten up, not about him, but how he'll look in the photos.

She also falls in with his view of the world at the end of the ep, when he says "you're not hainging out these losers, are you?" She still has some way to go before she starts being honest about the world she sees.

The Scooby gang are stronger and more mature than Marcie - they don't accept Mitch's or Cordy's perception of them to be true. They are their own people. So much so, that Buffy's 'weirdness' isn't invisible, but keeps leaping out. She drops her bag in front of Cordy and Mitch, and all her Slayer paraphanelia drops out and Cordy says:

"Behold the weirdness!"

Another small point: Buffy's comment "it's pretty much crush, kill destroy" - I'm pretty sure she must be quoting something here. Maybe this is a comic book reference I'm not getting?

All quotes courtesy of Psyche's site.
[> Happy happy joy joy! Thanks, Rah! -- Rob, 11:07:07 10/30/02 Wed

It just didn't seem right to do an annotated episode without ya!

Oh, and if anyone else does have anything to add re: "Out of Mind, Out of Sight," please go ahead, because I'm going to be starting the notes within the next day or so.

Expect "Nightmares" to be posted by tonight or tomorrow afternoon the latest, btw!

Rob
Anya, Bunnies, and Communism: A Marxist Critique (spoilers/selfless) -- Rochefort, 10:33:39 10/30/02 Wed

The show was delayed till Sunday in Detroit, so I couldn't keep up with the board, so I'm not sure if this was discussed.

Am I right in seeing that Anya comes to a slow belief in Marxism, is just reasoning it out with her rabbits, thinks about it a while, and instigates the bolshyvik revolution after she is demonized?

On a certain level, certainly, this is only a play and a pastiche on former Buffy characters who got flashed back. Tough Spike is a poetic wimp. Broody kind Angel is playfully satanic. Capitalist Bunny fearing Anya started out as a communist Bunny lover (har har).

But if we tried to do a serious Marxist critique, what sort of portrayal of both Capitalism and Marxism can we read in this episode (or others if you have them). Anya's natural love of Bunnies bringing her to the idea that capitalism is flawed... and the fact that once she is demonized, the "Bunnies for all" campaign brings us to Soviet Communism. Would a read of the show then make BTVS critical of soviet communism, not of Marxist ideals? Critical of capitalism in "all you need is love" sort of way?

Or...if Anya's later rampant capitalism is to be mocked on the show, is her involvement in communism to be seen the same way? In that, is BTVS deconstructing the communist/capitalist binary in some way by putting them both in the mouth and mind of a 'dope'?

A Marxist critique would then see BTVS as mystification because it attempts to blur and/or ignore any ills of capitalism, while simutaneously attempting to erase any distinction between a capitalist world and any other kind of world, denying a materialist reality.

Or is it just cute cause Anya used to love bunnies. But now she hates them.

Justin
[> Re: Anya, Bunnies, and Communism: A Marxist Critique (spoilers/selfless) -- Pilgrim, 11:52:36 10/30/02 Wed

I think you're definitely on to something. The text certainly offers the chance to ask these questions. And, if this is possible, the show may do everything you suggest--offer a (perhaps simple-minded (but funny)) critique of capitalism and marxism on one level, while at the same time being complicit in the ills of capitalism by blurring the distinctions between different economic systems. The show pretty much shows us only the petit bourgeois class and seems rather un-self-aware that there is class conflict, or even that there are other classes.

You know, though, the dominant form of capitalism nowadays is corporate capitalism rather than proprietary capitalism (where an individual (usually white male) owns the means of production). We've seen both forms in Buffy: Proprietary capitalism, where Giles and later Anya own the Magic Shop-- and here we see a bit of the dynamic between the owner class and the worker class in the relationship between Giles and Anya. We've also seen corporate capitalism, at least from the point of view of the worker, when Buffy works for minimum wage at a burger franchise.

I'd say that of these two forms of capitalism, the proprietary kind comes off a bit better since it permits Anya, the young female outsider, a chance to rise from worker to owner. That sort of portrayal of proprietary capitalism strikes me as, well, pretty much a fantasy. Perhaps a nostaglic rewriting of history from the perspective of our disenchantment with corporate capitalism.

We also have to consider that Buffy provides her services to the community for free. She thinks of slayage as a job, but it's an unpaid one. More than that, since slayage is her fate, not a choice she makes, how free is she to quit and move on to more gainful employment? If she isn't free to quit, her work can be seen as analogous to the work of the slave laborer or indentured servant. The community is making a killing, so to speak, off of her servitude, and Buffy must be considered one of the oppressed. And, since she's a woman, I suppose we shouldn't be surprised that the PTB expect her to work for free. :)
[> [> enlightening... -- Rochefort, 12:22:22 10/30/02 Wed

Slaying as specialized labor. After the Marxist revolution, everyone would slay.

I think your distinction between corporate capitalism and small shop owner capitalism is an important point I missed at first. It would seem that it would be critisism of corporate capitalism that would be the most important for BTVS to engage in. I've heard that the only episode ME has ever really gotten in trouble for (in terms of loss of sponsership) was the Double Meat Palace episode you mention as a critique of corporate capitalism. This was perhaps BTVS's finest moment as critical work.

(I know that Joss sees Buffy as mostly subversive of patriarchy, and that he isn't as interested in class or race, but if the real PTB only truly resist him when he challenges class systems... maybe this is revelatory of where the fight needs to be made. I mean people like bell hooks see the fight against white male capitalist patriarchy as one big fight.)
[> [> [> Yes, and . . . -- Pilgrim, 12:37:06 10/30/02 Wed

and we're starting to move beyond the feminist/marxist split through articulations of materialist feminist theory. Those big bad white male capitalist patriarchal pigs had better beware . . . the multicultural workers of the world are gonna unite. BTW, Are there any shows on tv that do, in fact, take on in sly or direct ways the power of corporate capitalism? Firefly? Didn't I hear that the big bad in that show is a corporate conglomerate? Or, I don't know, maybe it's just too easy to bash corporations.
[> [> [> [> Six Feet Under? -- Slain, 15:40:33 10/30/02 Wed

This show does seem to have a fairly significant anti-corporate and pro-proprietary basis, as it's about the struggle to keep a family business open in the face of a nasty corporation.

I do think BtVS plays with Communist metaphors, particularly in Joss episodes. For example the scene in 'Anne' where Buffy smashes the oppressive regime in a demon factory, uniting the workers and fighting with an embelmatic sickle.

While I don't think the show generally has a politcal bent, I do think in many ways the Scooby dynamic fits in with Marx's early theories of a self-supporting commune; money and wealth clearly are not vehicles for happiness, but rather annoying distractions. Buffy was certainly an oppressed worker at the Doublemeat Palace, and Anya doesn't seem to have been enriched by following the capitalist, nuclear family dream; though the jury's still out about the value of Xander's success.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Six Feet Under? (SFU season 2 spoilers) -- Rob, 16:25:59 10/30/02 Wed

And on "Six Feet Under," the huge corporation trying to buy out all of the small funeral homes, ends up filing for bankruptcy. By the end of the second season, we learn that this was not the feeding frenzy of an invincible monster, but the last desparate attempts of a struggling corporation to seem scarier than it really is and thus maintain its power.

Rob
[> [> [> [> [> That factory in `Anne` -- Cleanthes, 10:52:49 10/31/02 Thu

Buffy used a hammer and sickle to destroy the dark satanic mill, but, the whole place seemed inspired by a documentary of Stalin's steel mill in Magnitogorsk.

I, personally, took `Anne` as a rather anti-communist episode, with a plea for true worker rights, kinda like Solidarity in Poland.
[> Re: Anya, Bunnies, and Communism: A Marxist Critique (spoilers/selfless) -- yez, 12:35:03 10/30/02 Wed

Interesting -- hadn't picked up on this: a whole 'nother layer of funniness.

Don't know if the bunnies really make a good symbolic receptacle for any newfound distaste for communism, though...

Note: the Slayer works for free, but so do vengeance demons.
[> To misquote another intellectual of that era... -- Dariel, 19:20:51 10/30/02 Wed

"Sometimes a bunny is just a bunny."

Anyanka's touting of communism, as opposed to Anya's enthusiastic embracing of capitalist ideals, is simply meant to reinforce the point that Anya/Anyanka has no real self. She has no opinions, political or otherwise, of her own; she just adopts those of the prevailing society.
[> To misquote another intellectual of that era... -- Dariel, 19:22:07 10/30/02 Wed

"Sometimes a bunny is just a bunny."

Anyanka's touting of communism, as opposed to Anya's enthusiastic embracing of capitalist ideals, is simply meant to reinforce the point that Anya/Anyanka has no real self. She has no opinions, political or otherwise, of her own; she just adopts those of the prevailing society.
[> [> And the geography has something to do with it... -- Caroline, 06:29:47 10/31/02 Thu

Anya expresses socialist tendencies in Sweden, which is now a well-established social democracy with a rather throrough welfare state whereas she learns the joys of capitalism in America, which has far less of the 'social' in social democracy. But note that she is ridiculed in both places. Olaf ridicules her sharing of the bunnies, Xander et al ridicule her acquisitiveness and love of money. Perhaps this is ME's way of denigrating the extremes of both of these systems of economic organization? And it also is a commentary on her lack of internal identity - she simply aligns her Self to external, material factors.
[> [> [> Internal identity -- Robert, 10:52:18 10/31/02 Thu

>>> "And it also is a commentary on her lack of internal identity - she simply aligns her Self to external, material factors."

which is the theme of the episode.

Recall that the episode began with Dawn giving advice to Willow on how to fit in -- by suppressing one's own identity and individuality. I believe that Dawn said "Do exactly what everyone else does all the time."

The interesting thing is that while Anya believes that she has no identity, she clearly does not fit in with any of her peers.
Halloween Big Bads (dress up anyone) -- neaux, 10:44:20 10/30/02 Wed

I probably wont dress up this year, even though Chapel Hill, NC's Halloween event is one of the biggest in the state.
Anyway If you were to dress up for Halloween, would you be a Buffy Character, a Big Bad or what??

and dressing up as Warren is lame, because you could say I dress up as Warren everyday.

any takers??
[> Re: Halloween Big Bads (dress up anyone) -- Deeva, 12:23:21 10/30/02 Wed

I'm rather partial to VampWillow or Dru's outfits. Scary or vampy is the only way to go during Halloween. Although this year I'm not into it.
[> [> I was Milkmaid!Harmony from Restless last weekend... -- Dyna, 12:55:40 10/30/02 Wed

I didn't do the vamp-face, though. I'm obsessed enough with my forehead wrinkles already. ;)
[> Re: Halloween Big Bads (dress up anyone) -- Anneth, 14:54:11 10/30/02 Wed

If I end up going to any parties this year, I'm going to be Dead!Buffy. I've got wings and a halo and plan to wittle myself a stake at some point. Um... no pun intended. :)
[> Re: Halloween Big Bads (dress up anyone) -- pr10n, 18:45:04 10/30/02 Wed

I am in charge of walking three 11-year old girls around the neighborhood, so I'll be disguised as a flashlight-toting tough guy.

My favorite costume is beyond inappropriate nowadays: road flares, duct tape, a few random coiled wires, a lump of gray modeling clay, and a flashing countdown timer. And the word "Disgruntled" written on my forehead. (shout out to Neal Stephenson!)

Several years ago it was a big hit at work. I think I'll never wear that little ditty again.
[> Maybe I'll dress up next year... -- ZachsMind, 20:51:37 10/30/02 Wed

I was off work for Halloween. They were making a big deal out of the holiday there. Fortunately since I didn't have to be there today, I didn't have to bother with dressing up or participating in the pumpkin carving contest (don't ask). There have been times in my past when I would have been all for making a big deal out of Halloween. It used to be my favorite holiday and in some ways it still is, but it just doesn't feel like the holiday it was when I was a kid.

All that said, someday I'd like to dress up for Halloween as a member of The Watcher's Council, with a tweed suit and the metal spectacles. I couldn't pull off looking like Giles because I simply don't have his good looks, but one year I dressed up as a Vampire Hunter similar to the role of Roddy McDowell in the motion picture Fright Night. I would imagine a Watcher's outfit rather similar to that.

Another fun role not only to dress up as but also walk around annoying people "in character" at a party or something would be to pose as Xander in the episode "Halloween" when he had a military get up and then Ethan Rayne's spell caused him to believe he really was a military dude. I think I'd have a lot of fun with that, and I look a bit more like Xander than I do Giles. I'd probably have to shave off my beard though. Then I'd look the part. =) Not sure if anyone else at the party would 'get it' though, unless it was a party of nothing but Buffy fans.
[> [> For next year's Vamp costume... -- BriarRose, 00:40:25 10/31/02 Thu

I was so stoked for Halloween this year. Then my friend bailed on her entire party idea - so it's just me, Charmed/ ER Halloween eppys and my annual Samhain candle magick ritual for prosperity and spiritual growth.

But the GOOD news for all us inner Fang Gang wanna-bes is that I found some killer "Fake fangs" that actually stay put, don't taste like chewing on Goodyears, don't make ya slobber and you can actually snack wearing them! (No place to go to party, so I wore them around the house for fun this weekend.)

Scarecrow is the brand. They're available at Spencer's Gifts -- brick and morter or online -- and are close to the actual ones I got at http://www.customfangs.com/show.cgi/djretro/

Both brands come highly recommended by "lifestyle Vamps" and I can say that they weren't that hard to fit and wear with comfort.

Y'all gave me an idea though... Once I have a place where I can throw parties again, I just might throw a Buffy Bash for Halloween. Everyone can come as their fav character or reference or theology represented in the Joss-verse. Y'all are too cool, Thankee!
[> [> [> Charmed?! AAAAAAAAAAAHHHHH ;-) -- VampRiley, 06:38:16 10/31/02 Thu

Kidding.

Come as you aren't night?

[thinks]

since I'm a vamp and a god, I might try coming as a human. Maybe a scientist. That way, I can spew off a bunch of technobabble, while having no idea what it means, making myself seem super smart.

VR
[> [> [> [> Re: Leperous Glory minion for me, and reasons for -- Brian, 09:52:58 10/31/02 Thu

1. Chance to work with my new makeup kit

2. Monk's robe - hood up/hood down - warm/cool - scary/scarier - easy to clean - always fits the expanding waist line
[> [> [> [> [> Four required "costumes".... -- Brair Rose, 18:01:16 10/31/02 Thu

You can get by with only 4 things on hand that will always make up into a costume with stuff out of your regular closet:

A good pair of fangs.

A White Lab coat.

A cowboy hat.

Large Brightly colored silky scarf/an eye patch (this works best if you also add a HUGE hoop earring.~w~)

These four things can go with anything and still work to be a costume.... except maybe in Texas for the cowboy hat.*L
[> Re: Halloween Big Bads (dress up anyone) -- Random, 15:12:23 10/31/02 Thu

Actually, my latest ex- looks a helluva lot like SMG, or did until she cut her hair short (all my ex-es do that after we break up, for some reason), and she's a big BtVS fan. So last year, we considered a Buffy theme for (like neaux, I live in North Carolina, and spend a good deal of my time trolling -- not the bad kind! -- Chapel Hill) the annual bash at Chapel Hill. We ran into a couple problems. 1)once you get past tight leather pants/miniskirt, a cross, a stake, and some medieval weaponry, it's hard to really dress up as Buffy and be recognized as such. 2) how does one go about dressing up as Buffy's boyfriend? Brood a lot and have random bouts of bitchiness? So we eventually went sans costume but we knew in our hearts who we were supposed to be. Or at least she did. I just alternately brooded and acted all insecure, covering all the bases in one shot. BTW, not going to Chapel Hill this year. Too crowded (50,000+ expected this year in a town approximately the size of Sunnydale circa "Welcome to the Hellmouth")
[> [> *S* ((((((((((Random))))))))) -- Briar Rose, 18:04:18 10/31/02 Thu

Coincidence (mild spoilers of Restless, Villains and Pillow Book) -- Sang, 10:48:24 10/30/02 Wed

darrenK wrote in this board the parallel between Faith and and Raskolnikov (Charactor in 'Crime and Punishment' by Dostoyevsky) and the coincidence that his monolog about counting 730 steps. That was very inspiring.

I also found something quite interesting (or disturbing) which looks like just a coincidence.

The first part of Willow's dream in Restless presented Tara's image at the bed, which was taken from Peter Greenaway's beautiful but really disturbing movie 'Pillow Book'.

In the movie, our heroine wrote a Japanese poem on human body. Her lover, who was played by Ewan McGregor, was bi-sexual and killed himself because of his betrayal of her love. She wrote her masterpiece on his body. A publsher, an old man, who was the gay lover and cause of the death of the guy flayed him and made a book out of his skin.

Again, all this skin things...
[> Re: Coincidence (mild spoilers of Restless, Villains and Pillow Book) -- shadowkat, 12:05:26 10/30/02 Wed

"I also found something quite interesting (or disturbing) which looks like just a coincidence.

The first part of Willow's dream in Restless presented Tara's image at the bed, which was taken from Peter Greenaway's beautiful but really disturbing movie 'Pillow Book'.

In the movie, our heroine wrote a Japanese poem on human body. Her lover, who was played by Ewan McGregor, was bi-sexual and killed himself because of his betrayal of her love. She wrote her masterpiece on his body. A publsher, an old man, who was the gay lover and cause of the death of the guy flayed him and made a book out of his skin.

Again, all this skin things..."

I don't think this is a coincidence. I could be wrong here, but I'm pretty sure the movie that Buffy and Angel come out of in Season 3 - not sure which episode, might have been Amends? Or Enemies? Probably Enemies? Was Pillow Book.
They make the comment about it being too risque and they should avoid erotic films like this. Having never seen Pillow Book but heard about it - I thought the reference was about risque sex or something like that. Now...after reading your quick synoposis? I think they meant the reference as the idea of betrayle for Angel and wouldn't be at all surprised if it didn't come up again in what occurred last year.

Unless of course I've remembered that movie reference from Season 3 wrong.
[> [> It was something like "The feast of Amelia" or something. -- Rahael, 12:07:42 10/30/02 Wed

But I think that going by what Sang's said, the parallels between Restless and Pillow book are startling.

Joss watches lots of films. He may have used it consciously, or unconciously.
[> [> [> Re: It was something like "The feast of Amelia" or something. -- aliera, 17:24:14 10/30/02 Wed

In Enemies...at the Sun Cinema "Le Banquet D'Amelia". According to the guides it's not a real movie?
[> [> [> [> Ahh! That's it! Thanks -- Rahael, 01:48:38 10/31/02 Thu

I obviously translated it in my mind. And yeah, I think I did google it at one point! Not real.
[> [> Too tired to fight my toddler for control of the TV right now... -- LadyStarlight, 13:09:26 10/30/02 Wed

...but IIRC, didn't the movie have something to do with food? I remember a line about "I didn't know you could do that with...".

Watcher's Guide just calls it 'an arousing movie'.
[> [> [> Right, there was "the scene....with the food" -- Vickie, 13:20:40 10/30/02 Wed

[> [> [> For Some Reason I had Assumed It Was 'Naked Lunch' -- AngelVSAngelus, 16:04:31 10/30/02 Wed

[> Re: Coincidence (mild spoilers of Restless, Villains and Pillow Book) -- ponygirl, 12:44:31 10/30/02 Wed

It's been a while since I've seen the Pillow Book, and Peter Greenaway is definitely someone you have to be in the mood for, but I do think you're onto something. Beyond the obvious visual steal, I think there are connections to be made with the way the Pillow Book deals with romantic relationships. The heroine of the film uses her lovers' bodies as canvasses for her work, she projects onto them. It asks a lot of questions about possession and jealousy, do we hope to merely leave our marks upon those we love, or to claim them always? To sign them like a work of art?

To use this imagery in the context of the Willow/Tara relationship suggests to me that Willow is also projecting onto Tara. She writes her love poem on Tara's back, she creates an idea of love, of Tara without really knowing her. It is beautiful but it doesn't suggest a relationship of equals. It seems to point to the frictions that would later develop between them, where Willow would expect Tara's support but not allow Tara to be an active and possibly conflicting participant in their relationship.

The Pillowbook's a pretty interesting film, beautiful visually, but a bit slow IIRC. Lots of nudity. Lots -- you'll probably never see more of Ewan McGregor than in this film!
[> Re: A little more about Pillow Book, -- Sang, 12:59:53 10/30/02 Wed

Since there are someone who have interest in this movie, I will describe some of the details in it. But I should tell you I saw it long times ago and my memory can be deceiving.

This is a story about three people, young Japanese woman Nagiko, and mysterious young man Jerome and dominating and manipulating old Japanese publisher.

Nagiko's father was a writer, and he used to write poems on young Nagiko's face. He loved his family dearly but was also sex slave of old publisher. He killed himself later and it shook Nagiko's life.

She became rich and famous (as a model or designer I forgot), but she developed strange sexual tendency. She could only be satisfied by a man who can write poems on her body. Tired of finding a right men, she reversed the role and started to write herself on man's body.

Her another obsession was 'Pillow Book' an ancient book written by anonimous Japanese lady, who was soul in traditional house wife life. She wrote about love, happiness, saddness, loneliness and sex.

Jerome became her object of affection and creativity. But he was also a sex slave of the publisher who ruined Nagko's father. After she found out the truth, she rejected him and he committed suicide.

Nagiko wrote 'book of love' on his body and buried him. It became her own pillow book. But publisher stole his body and flayed him to make his own book.

Nagiko demanded to return his skin. But the publisher suggested her that he would return it only if she wrote 10 books for him.

So she started to send men to the publisher. She wrote a 'book' on each of them. I forgot details about them, but they represented the personalities of the person, I think.

One of the man was not talking and the publisher could not find any writing on him. He was frustrated and shouted to the man 'where is my book!'. Then he opened his mouth. It was writte on his tongue 'the book of silence'.

At the end, she sent her last book to him. He was a big quiet Japanese man. The publisher realized that it was 'the book of death'. The man was a killer sent by Nagiko. After finishing his last book, the publisher was excuted and the revenge of Nagiko was delivered. She retained her 'book of love'.
[> [> Very Interesting!!! Thank you! -- Rahael, 02:04:09 10/31/02 Thu

[> [> Some thoughts - "The Flaying of Marsyas" (Spoilers for Villains, S6) -- Rahael, 06:45:13 10/31/02 Thu

When I first saw Villains, the first thing that came to mind when I saw what Willow did to Warren was the legend of Marsyas.

Marsyas picked up the flute that Athena had dropped, and learnt to play it so well, that he challenged Apollo. Apollo agreed to a musical contest which he won. After he won, to punish Marsyas for his pride and ambition, he had him tied to a tree and flayed.

I had initially thougth that this legend had nothing to do with what happened to Warren. But I wondered if it might have something to do with Willow, especially after reading these posts, and the way that skin and art is all connected together.

Marsyas paid with his skin because he was an artist, because he dared to challenge the Gods with his talent. Did Willow too challenge the Gods?

Or is the Marsyas parallel simply connect to the Greenaway film rather than Villains?

But anyway, I happen to love that myth a lot, simply because it is so expressive of what some of the pain of producing great art is about. Great art can challenge the Gods, and invoke their wrath. Probably has nothing to do with Villains though!
Super-Evil Special Edition: "Once More, With Feeling" -- Honorificus (The Mellifluous and Melodious One), 11:22:11 10/30/02 Wed

Well, kiddies, since THEY decided this week would be just perfect for a rerun, and since me being absent for a week seems to encourage others, like, say, d'Horrible to go for the coup, I will now present to you my own, inimitable, inexorable, and irresistable take on the Buffy musical: Once More, With Feeling. As usual, I will start with the important things.

Fashion Statements
The Good
Pajamas! Xander's pinstriped jammies and Anya's red-red lingerie were a great improvement over their usual. Especially Anya's lingerie.

Dawn's Audrey Hepburn mock-T and capri pants. Looked terrific on her.

Sweet! Here's a demon with real taste. Darling, I love your style, even if the Twerp doesn't.

Giles in casual clothes. *Sigh!*

Buffy's red top at the end. Like I always say, a girl can't wear too much red.

The Bad
Willow and Tara's froofy dresses. Especially Willow's pink nightmare number. Honey, hasn't anyone ever told you that a redhead shouldn't wear pink? I'll give Tara a bit of a pass, since she filled hers out so nicely, but I object to the whole principle of the thing.

Anya's butterfly shirt. Egh. Reminds me of an uncomfortable evening I once spent with Delirium of the Endless.

Willow's big coat. Ug-ly! I hate that thing.

The dress Sweet put Dawn in. Okay, I understand the whole "underworld child bride" thing, but the dress was so freakin' *obvious*. Subtlety, please!

Plot in a Nutshell
One night on patrol, Buffy inexplicably bursts into song while killing demons and vampires. This strikes her as odd. Even odder is that everyone else is singing and dancing. It's all the fault of a demon named Sweet, who likes to burn people up. Nasty secrets get revealed (like Willow's singing voice), and Spike ruins the whole thing by saving Buffy's life. The end.

Demonic Quibbles/Comments
First of all, there are demons like Sweet. They do indeed cause singing and dancing and Andrew Lloyd Webber. The caveat is that they're not very powerful and tend only to affect one person at a time.

Secondly, the Underworld Child Bride thing: Yes, it happens. I personally don't think Anya was being fair, though, when she said it never turns out well. I had a cousin once . . . well, never mind.

Thirdly, I know of no demon that sacrifices handsome young men unless they're virgins. And if Fabio-lous was a virgin, my simpering alter-ego isn't.

Highlights
The melodic interpretation of the opening credits. Cute!

The vampire/demon chorus on Buffy's opening number. Reminds me of the good old days of Demon Vaudeville.

Giles singing. *Sigh!*

Tap-Dancing Tuxedo burning himself up. Yes, that is indeed entertainment!

Pajamas!

Spike's rock riff. Almost makes me understand why I put up with the boy.

Sweet's entrance. Grab the Twerp and sing a song with minion backup. That demon knows how to steal a scene, all right.

Giles singing. *Swoon!*

Tara and Giles' duet. Ah, the torment of love! Besides, they blended beautifully. Plus, Giles singing. *Slobber!*

"Walk Through the Fire." Great sequence! Plus, Giles singing. *Smile!*

The look on Willow's face when Buffy revealed where she'd been. Truly worth the entire season, IMHO. Take that, Rosenberg. Best intentions, my hindquarters.

Giles singing. *Smoke!*

Lowlights
All the demon-killing during the opening sequence. I have to object. The guy with the horns was so cute.

Willow singing. Gah!

The whole "If We're Together" song. Insulin, stat!

The Willow/Tara lurve. Yes, Tara sings very prettily, but the whole matter is of supreme indifference to me. Plus, the dresses.

Spike saving Buffy. Idiot! Why do I put up with him?

Spike/Buffy smoochies. *Squick!*

Burning questions
So if Xander ordered the demon and knew it was about "songs and dances," why didn't his primitive little hindbrain realize he might be at fault for the whole musical extravaganza? Is he really that stupid? Or is that a rhetorical question?

Why the last number? Did Sweet leave them a parting gift?

Has anyone thought of sending Sweet to Pylea?

The Immoral of the Story
If something's weird, blame Xander.

Overall Rating
This is one of my favorite episodes. Lots of emotional turmoil for the Scoobies, an ending that's far from happy, and Giles singing. That adds up to one big burning q on the Non Sequitur Scale.
[> Re: Super-Evil Special Edition: "Once More, With Feeling" -- Victorinox, 13:14:22 10/30/02 Wed

Doll! Always a pleasure to see your nefarious critiques. I could hardly agree more. May I presume to add a couple of things?

Fashion Bad: Xander's falling leaves shirt in the final scenes. Good hells, what did the boy do, borrow a bedspread?

Demonic Quibbles: Honey, I always thought that "Sir Andrew" was a SingTillTheyDroppus demon. Barry Manilow, too. No?

The Immoral: absolutely. And if not, blame Xander anyway!

regards,
V.
[> [> Comments on your Comments -- Honorificus (Simply the Best), 14:30:11 10/30/02 Wed

Fashion Bad: Xander's falling leaves shirt in the final scenes. Good hells, what did the boy do, borrow a bedspread?

The reason I so rarely comment on Xander's clothing is that it's generally a foregone conclusion that he will be a Fashion Bad. On the rare occasion that he isn't, it merits a comment.

Demonic Quibbles: Honey, I always thought that "Sir Andrew" was a SingTillTheyDroppus demon. Barry Manilow, too. No?

Sir Andrew got elevated right after "Sunset Boulevard," I believe, but he started out as human. As for Manilow, he's merely possessed.

The Immoral: absolutely. And if not, blame Xander anyway!

Certainly my credo.
[> MOUSES! la la laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa! -- Bizarro Rochefort, 13:14:48 10/30/02 Wed

[> Re: Super-Evil Special Edition: "Once More, With Feeling" -- Sophomorica, sucking on a lollipop, 14:01:42 10/30/02 Wed

...Anya's red-red lingerie were a great improvement over their usual. Especially Anya's lingerie.

Those things on Anya's FEET! OMG!
[> [> Well, darling, it's a matter of taste. -- Honorificus (Fashionable to the Last Drop), 14:26:02 10/30/02 Wed

I, for one, happen to enjoy Froofy Feathered Footwear around the house. Shows off my pedicure and my jammies so nicely.
[> [> [> That's an overshare :) -- Earl Allison, 16:34:28 10/30/02 Wed

Or, in Simpsonspeak;

MY EYES! THE GOGGLES, THEY DO NOTHING!

Meant only in jest, your delectable evilness, for in kindness and mercy does your power lie :)

Take it and run.
[> [> [> [> *raises hand* Second! -- Sophomorica, chewing on lollipop stick, 16:53:35 10/30/02 Wed

[> [> [> [> Don't get her started. -- HonorH (the nice one), 17:09:52 10/30/02 Wed

You think that's oversharing? What she likes to wear with her beloved jammies? You don't know jack, if you'll pardon me saying so. She could make Anya blush when she sets her mind to it. Not to mention that she doesn't just overshare about herself, she overshares about *me*. Did you see the TMI she slipped into her review about me? I'm gonna play Celtic music all evening just to watch her squirm (I love it, she hates it--one of my very few ways of keeping her in line).
[> [> [> [> [> Oh dear... -- Sophie, 17:13:14 10/30/02 Wed

My apologies regarding Sophomorica.

At least she is not chewing on my dictionary again. I still haven't gotten the demon slobber off of it! Yes, I got the stray cat (thanks for the advice, though I forgot who you are), but before I got the cat to lick the slobber from the dictionary, or at least abused the cat to wipe the slobber off of the dictionary, Sophomorica, uh, well, er...ate the cat.

*sigh*

Come on Sophomorica, dinners ready.
[> She's an EpithetPerdeum demon! -- I'm not signing, don't stomp me, 21:30:01 10/30/02 Wed

[> [> *Stomp!* -- Honorificus (The Fantabulicious One), 21:38:16 10/30/02 Wed

Where'd it go? Cagey little bugger. Nobody yells inscrutable comments at me and gets away with it, by all that's unholy!
[> [> [> Re: *Stomp!* -- VampRiley, 09:44:50 10/31/02 Thu

"Nobody yells inscrutable comments at me and gets away with it, by all that's unholy?"

[gently strokes the back of Honorificus' head with his right hand]

Maybe we should think about getting you one of those stress releaver toys, like the one where you squeeze and it's head gets bigger and it's eyes bulge? Even for a demon, stress is bad, mmm'kay?

Liked the post. Finally got around to reading one of your's before it got archived, though I didn't like the fluffly footwear.

And like with Anna Nicole Smith, there is no way to buy good taste.

I want everything to be pink!

But, I think Xander has gotten at least a little better. With fashion, that is. All the while, I have this terrible feeling that somewhere in the back of his closet, Xander still has a couple shirts that look like a blind, deaf mute with no sense of touch cobbled together.

;-P

VR
[> Re: Super-Evil Special Edition: "Once More, With Feeling" -- Le Fey, 21:51:09 10/30/02 Wed

Ah, Sweet...he and I dated back in the day. Some of those midnight song and dance sessions....Ahem.

An excellent episode, though Giles's singing makes me long for his Ripper days. Why, oh why did that boy have to go GOOD on us? *shudders* He was so delightfully wicked. I wanted to fight Eyghon for him, but nooooooo. *grumbles* I could have kept him on our side....
[> [> You and Sweet? -- ponygoyle, 07:34:58 10/31/02 Thu

He told me I was the only one! That's it Le Fey -- battle axes at dawn! Or maybe-- since I turn to stone at dawn-- 11:30ish?
[> [> [> Re: You and Sweet? -- Le Fey, 09:01:53 10/31/02 Thu

Oh, ponygoyle, I think the demon you should be going after with an axe is dear Sweet if he told you that. Cause I broke up with him after catching him with a harpy. Besides, that was ages ago (literally). So let's just go have a drink and abuse males, shall we?
[> [> [> [> And just which males did you have in mind? -- VampRiley, 09:47:26 10/31/02 Thu

[> [> [> [> I'm totally willing to bury the hatchet... -- ponygoyle, 10:09:46 10/31/02 Thu

... or just have a drink. Maybe VampRiley will do the buying.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: I'm totally willing to bury the hatchet... -- Le Fey, 10:48:31 10/31/02 Thu

*hooks my arm with yours* I think that would absolutely adorable of him. In an evil and diabolical way, of course.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Um, the hatchet... -- pr0ng the Joiner, 11:06:16 10/31/02 Thu

With the demony, it's always "...there's nothin' strange about an axe with bloodstains in the barn/There's always some killin' you got to do around the farm"

So hey, re: hatchets and demons, I say get it in writing.
[> Re: Super-Evil Special Edition: "Once More, With Feeling" -- RobAndMurder, 22:33:45 10/30/02 Wed

"Anya's butterfly shirt. Egh. Reminds me of an uncomfortable evening I once spent with Delirium of the Endless."

ROFLMAO! Though, to be fair, her style is a lot better than if she were hanging out with Desire. Staring at those mannish pantsuits too long could lead a M'Fashnik demon to sting himself in the eyes!

"First of all, there are demons like Sweet. They do indeed cause singing and dancing and Andrew Lloyd Webber."

Yes, Honorificus, that's very true. I've heard that a similar, even more terrifying singing demon of yore spat forth from the bowels of hell the creative team that wrote the score to "Annie." And if my options were listening to that cheery drivel over and over for all of eternity, or having my skin slowly peeled off by Gnarl...you bet your sweet hindquarters I'd be as red and raw as a baby Pishlaak by now!

Rob
[> [> Must agree, darling. -- Honorificus (The Utterly Desirable One), 11:12:02 11/01/02 Fri

Desire's such a poseur. I much prefer the company of Death, anyway. Such a sweetie. And that Destruction certainly knows how to show a girl a good time. Mm, Destruction!

I've heard the "Annie" rumor from some very good sources and do not doubt but that it's true. A lot of the sickeningly sweet musicals ("State Fair," anybody?) were the work of demons, trying to drive humans to murder. Unfortunately, they underestimated the human taste for pure saccharine, more's the pity, and self-flagellation.
[> [> [> The problem is... -- RobAndMurder, 16:15:23 11/01/02 Fri

...the demons didn't realize that when you make such saccharine, yet damnably catchy music, it gets stuck in human heads. When humans have songs stuck in their heads too long, they start to think they actually like them. And they want to hear them more! Strange race...gluttons for punishment. And like everything else, they taste like chicken!

Rob
[> Re: Super-Evil Special Edition: "Once More, With Feeling" -- Purple Tulip (hoping not to be struck down by Honorificus), 21:22:11 10/31/02 Thu

How can the Spike/Buffy kiss be a lowlight??? And you PUT UP WITH HIM???? To me, he's the highlight of an episode. And what's wrong with him saving Buffy? Wouls you rather he let her burn into a pile of ashes??? I think it showed his human side that he didn't want to let her die. Just my opinions of course--- now I'll go re-bury my head in the sand.
[> [> Quick explanation, dearest. -- HonorH (the nice one), 23:31:29 10/31/02 Thu

Brief disclaimer: the twisted opinions put forth by Honorificus do not in any way reflect the opinions of myself, her alter-ego, or of anyone particularly sane. I personally greatly enjoy Spike (though I'm ambivalent about the Buffy/Spike smoochies and smooshing), and would have been greatly distressed by Buffy burning to ashes, but Honorificus has different views. I'm human. And mentally stable. Honorificus is neither. Hence the Super-Evil Reviews, which give a demon's-eye view of BtVS. That make everything particularly clear as mud?
[> [> [> But she's got a point ! -- Autochtone, 06:30:17 11/01/02 Fri

Never go for the kill when you can go for the pain !

When Spike saved ad kissed Buffy, he beun that delightful cycle of mutually abusive relationship that was the highlight of season6. Because of this action, Buffy was tortured and tempted by the our so must more fashionable dark side for monthes. It didn't work eventually, but it was a close call.
[> [> [> [> Yes, but it's the principle of the thing. -- Honorificus (The Well-Mannered One), 13:13:17 11/01/02 Fri

We simply cannot have demons and vampires saving the Slayer. It throws everything out of whack, and I won't stand for it.
[> [> [> [> [> Is that a rule ? -- Autochtone, 03:43:23 11/02/02 Sat

'cause I don't like much rules. That stuff is made for the goodies, laws and such. We on the other hand, we wreak havok, bring chaos and corrupt the innocent. Sorry but I'm from the Ethan Rayne school of evil, and fighting well-ordered battle against the Champions is boring.
I mean, come on, we're evil ! Let us cheat !
Maybe not last season of BtVS? -- afterlife, 12:13:00 10/30/02 Wed

Article at SciFi.com:

www.scifi.com/scifiwire/art-main.html?2002-10/30/11.00.tv
[> More on the (im)possible return of Benson here (light Willow spoilers) -- yez, 12:22:58 10/30/02 Wed

(http://www.tvguide.com/newsgossip/insider/021030b.asp)

Buffy Star Dead Again
Wednesday, October 30, 2002

Another setback for poor, lovelorn Willow (Alyson Hannigan) on Buffy the Vampire Slayer. The recovering witchoholic's deceased love Tara (Amber Benson) will not be resurrected this season after all. According to series creator Joss Whedon, Benson - who was slated to be brought back to life as a different character - failed to reach a deal with producer 20th Century Fox.

"It was a question of negotiations, as it sometimes is," he tells TV Guide Online. "It's sad, because I love Amber. But that's between her and Fox." Adds Benson's rep: "She's very proud of her work on the show, but ultimately, we couldn't work out the right deal."

Well, Benson's comeback, like her alter ego, was shot down, but that doesn't mean Willow won't fall under the spell of another enchantress. Whedon reveals that the sapphic Scooby "is going to meet someone" new. "I can't say whether or not it's going to work out, but she's definitely not joining a nunnery." Another definite: The onetime hetero won't be going back to boys. "This I will tell you without any equivocation," he says, "Willow's gay."

Well, there was that whole Oz (Seth Green) phase... "It takes a while for some people to realize it," reasons Whedon. "Truthfully, when we first started the [Willow-Tara love story], we were like, 'Is [Willow] bi? Is she gay? What do we want to say? What do we want to do?'
"We decided it would be unfair of us, particularly considering the circumstances of Tara's controversial death, to say, 'Oh, now Willow's over it.' Or, 'Willow's bi so we can have more storylines,'" he continues. "So, we do have somebody in mind that Willow will meet in the future who might shake up her world just a little bit - and it'll be a girl." - Michael Ausiello
Is this Buffy's final season? Read what Joss Whedon has to say by clicking here.
My thread disappeared. Did I Troll? n/t -- Deb, 12:59:13 10/30/02 Wed

[> Nope just moved to the archives -- Masq, 13:02:02 10/30/02 Wed

Not by me. Just by voy. Evil voy!

Want it back??
[> [> Re: Nope just moved to the archives -- Deb, 13:28:32 10/30/02 Wed

No, I was just making sure I had not crossed over to the Troll side.
[> [> [> Re: Avoiding the archives -- pr10n, 16:39:23 10/30/02 Wed

This is good -- I thought I had a good idea recently and it vanished into Voy. My first thought was that I was being troll-spanked. Then I realized that I had personal issues and got over it. :)

What makes a good post? Is it Spike? Is it asking hard questions? Is it ferocious research? All of these and more?

Many of you post often and engage in long conversations. What advice do you have for we the mostly-lurkers?
[> [> [> [> Re: Avoiding the archives -- Rahael, 16:48:34 10/30/02 Wed

My advice is to get a job which often has hours of tedium involved, whereupon the urge to haunt the board and post becomes unavoidable.

As for having the sneaking feeling you've made an unacceptable post that got deleted, around the first week I was posting at the board, I was so sure I had done that! And then later I realised that only spam and spoilers get deleted here, and realised that it had gone into archives. I felt silly!

My favourite posts are the ones that make me laugh, or smile, though I don't always reply to them. I say to dH "so and so is sweet! so sweet!" and he goes "uh huh".

But seriously, you need to post more often, cos I think you already know how to write 'em! I already click on your posts expecting to find a really intelligent yet humorously put point.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Avoiding the archives -- pr10n, 17:15:02 10/30/02 Wed

[grins] + [glows!]

Thanks, and that's the thing: Notice Me! M-e-e-eoe-eow.

When you have a thought and no one responds, heart-self feels so grrr argh. But brain-self knows that its just timing, or the point's been done to death, or something normal and non-personal.

Hated and scorned for trolling? That takes effort!
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Avoiding the archives -- aliera, 17:47:28 10/30/02 Wed

Your right about that truly pr10n. I've spent a bit of time reading the archives and there does seem to be a timing aspect. There are many people (such yourself) that may not be signed on when you post or there may be a couple of very active posts on the board. One of my first posts (not a new post but a response that I had spent a bit of time on) didn't get any further response but then later was referenced in another post...a good feeling. Then there's always the wonderful yet weird feeling of writing something and having a responder miss it entirely or take it OT and have that subthread grow to enormous proportions down some wickedly wonderful paths...fun! So keep at it both of you!
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Now you've got me worrying... -- Juliet, 17:52:07 10/30/02 Wed

Oh no, I think I'm a troll! Am I a troll?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Now you've got me worrying... -- aliera, 17:58:57 10/30/02 Wed

That wasn't for me was it Juliet? Absolutely not! Worry free zone here.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Now you've got me worrying... -- Masq, 20:56:50 10/30/02 Wed

If you're actually worried that your a troll, or worried that other people think you're a troll, you're probably not a troll. : )
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I was just raised that if you don't ask direct questions, you don't get direct answers -- Deb, 05:10:20 10/31/02 Thu

So, I ask.

I realized a few years ago that I had a streak of arrogance within me (my little vamp). So I try to keep it reserved for those times when it is appropriately useful.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> *Ack* and "your" = "you're". <shudders> -- Masq, 08:58:44 10/31/02 Thu

I could be really trolly if I wanted to, too. You hang around long enough you begin to recognize when you're doing it and cancel the post (or rewrite it) before hitting that "confirm" button.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> What I've discovered -- darrenK, 09:57:35 10/31/02 Thu

It's really easy to get snarky when you're addressing pseudonyms that only theoretically represent people.

But, what I've discovered is that if you hang around this board long enough, you might actually meet the people those small words represent.

At that point it's very nice not to have to start out with a whole bunch of apologies.

If you do find yourself in that position, I recommend a blanket apology covering everyone you've just met.

It worked for me.

I think. ; )

dK
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Avoiding the archives -- JBone, 18:46:45 10/30/02 Wed

Hated and scorned for trolling? That takes effort!

You ain't kidding! After all that troll debate raged last week, I threw together a troll post criticizing everything, even me. I'm pretty sure everyone saw it for the load of crap that it was, but it sucked all the venom out of me for a couple days just writing it. Well that, and I got into a pretty good mood watching Emmitt Smith become the NFL's career leading rusher. Woo Hoo!
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Avoiding the archives -- yabyumpan, 00:43:41 10/31/02 Thu

"When you have a thought and no one responds, heart-self feels so grrr argh. But brain-self knows that its just timing, or the point's been done to death, or something normal and non-personal."

Well put pr10n. I was thinking about this just yesterday. It's interesting how we can sometimes project our "stuff" on to the boards and think 'am I boring/stupid/rude?' or even worse a 'troll' when it may just be timing etc.
I do feel like changing my name to Marcie sometimes but I've been posting, although not that regularly, for about a year now and I've realised it's just the way the board works.(Of course, it may be that I am boring/stupid/rude, but no one's told me that yet so I'll just stay in my happy place for now)
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Not Marcie at all! -- Rahael, 07:19:20 10/31/02 Thu

I think the problem is that we just don't get as much interest in Angel here, sadly. And you're a big Angel fan, and you participate in those threads more.

This just makes your posts more welcome!

And as for brain-self and heart-self, oh, I have so been there! It all goes through cycles.

I felt pretty invisible too until I started talking to posters in chat. It's then you realise that people are actually reading your posts etc.

I like this Blake poem. It always makes me laugh at myself.

"O! why was I born with a different face?
Why was I not born like the rest of my race?
When I look, each one starts; when I speak, I offend;
Then I'm silent and passive, and lose every friend.
Then my verse I dishonour, my pictures despise,
My person degrade, and my temper chastise;
And the pen is my terror, the pencil my shame;
All my talents I bury, and dead is my fame.

I am either too low, or too highly priz'd;
When elate I'm envied; when meek I'm despis'd."
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Urgh -- Masq, 09:51:05 10/31/02 Thu

"...the problem is that we just don't get as much interest in Angel here, sadly."

The source of my daily and constant frustration! Paces the length of the board, muttering to self I just don't get it. I don't get it.

It's *my* board, and I love "AtS" more!

Urgh.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> lol -- Rahael, 14:05:11 10/31/02 Thu

well y'know, I'd be talking more about Angel if I could actually get to see these damn eps.

At least with Buffy I've seen an act here, an act there. And then other people's posts describe the eps to me.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Ok, Marvin then ; - ) -- yabyumpan, 11:32:36 10/31/02 Thu

Thanks Rah :-) As I said, I think I (we?) do tend to project whatever's happening in RL onto the boards and our postings, I guess we'd be like androids if we didn't (maybe that should have been Marvin and not Marcie!) but I'm pretty aware that I do that so most of the time I'm able to step back and have a good chuckle at myself. A sense of humour certainly helps keep things in perspective, as does not posting when I've just come off of night shift, a mushy brain is not conducive to a good post or a balenced perspective.

Also, the timing thing, there's about a 48 hour window for AtS posts before they get swept away by BtVS posts, which is at least better than we got last year. I gave a little cheer when I found out that AtS was being moved to Sundays. It doesn't affect me in terms of watching as I won't actually get to see the series untill the new year but my first thought when I heard the new schedule was 'yeah, more time for AtS posts on ATPoBTVS'.


edited to add- this is my third attempt at posting this, aaargh!!! even the Voybeast hates my posts!!!!! he he he (giggling while typing)

No body loves me
Every body hates me
Think I'll go and eat worms

Short ones, fat ones
Thin ones, long ones
See them sqiggle and squirm......
[> [> [> [> Advice? Rule number one: Don't take it personally... -- ZachsMind, 19:04:23 10/30/02 Wed

Don't take it personal. It's very good advice. Advice that's been taped to the nose on my face many a time by well-meaning people who were good-natured and wanted me to just tone down. I used to respond to that phrase "don't take it personally" as if it had been spat in my face. All they were doing was playfully taking their forefinger and poking me on the nose as if it would beep. Over the years I've slowly learned to manage to take that advice a bit more playfully.

Sometimes I still take things personally though, and I end up kicking myself in the butt. You can't take someone else's editing of your words personally. It just makes you look bad when you do. The other day I got some automated messages from a place online which still holds a dear place in my heart. It's h2g2.com. At least that's what it was when I wrote for it. Today it's http://www.bbc.co.uk/h2g2/guide and though I don't go there as much anymore I still care for it and I recommend anyone here to go check the place out.

My words are there somewhere. In a few places. The other day I got automated messages in email telling me they had edited my words in a few entries. To be honest, I'd forgotten I wrote them. In one example, I'd used the word "bastard" in a quote somebody said, and the Powers That Be over there censored the quote. It apparently offended somebody. I could take that personally. I coulda written to somebody and complained. I used to know who to complain to. Maybe they're still there.

Instead I shrugged and surfed on. It coulda been worse. They could have just taken the entire entry down and not told me. So I smiled and nodded, and remembered those times when a friend would rein me in while I was on some mad tirade about the rights of free speech and what not, and beeped me on the nose.

You can't take it personally. Masquerade took down one of my posts recently. I don't know if it was to put it in the archives or because she disagreed with me. I didn't ask. Over at the Cross & Stake I can't post anything. They see my name and they delete it outright now. Why? I don't know why. I suspect it's because I have an opinion about 'shippers' that few people share. Take it personally? You can't take it personally. If you did, it'd eat you up inside and what's worse, eventually you stop talking. You stop sharing what you have to say with anyone who cares to listen.

So just do what you can not to troll, but otherwise say what you feel and speak from your heart. There are people who believe the Internet is run on servers and routers and uses a lot of electricity. You and I know the truth. The Internet runs on words spoken from the heart.

Don't take it personally. *beep*
[> [> [> [> [> Second that advice...and... -- shadowkat, 06:50:39 10/31/02 Thu

Advice that I rarely take myself, miserable thin skin and all.

But I've been posting since about February now. Started at Buffy Cross and Stake with essays. Then jumped over here and rarely post over there anymore. Mostly because B C & S
is a spoiler board. (And I've gone off Spoilers permanently) But also because it is a shipper board.
If you don't like ships? Don't go there, trust me - they will slaughter you. The ship wars over there are legendary. Another thing about that board? It
doesn't save it's archives. So you post an essay? It may last a day, then off to archives and within a week? Gone.
Posts do not last long over there - the board moves too fast. So they may not actually have deleted you - it just goes that fast.

That's what happens here - voy will often archive something before anyone has a chance to read it. Why? Because there are longer threads and posts on the board pushing it off.
Masq has kindly yanked some essays I worked hard on from archives numerous times as well as others posts. Once this summer she made it possible to reply to archived posts which made her job of maintaining the board more difficult, I'd imagine. Usually what gets archived here - has zip to do with what you wrote and more to do with what else is going on on the board. If everyone is concentrating on say the "Meme culture" post - your tiny one on say the ambiguous nature of Spike might get archived faster.

Posts that don't get archived quickly either elcit emotional responses - disagreements or praise. I know I tend to respond to something that I either don't agree with or feel I can add to. If I can't add anything, I don't respond. Occassionally I'll do a non-text response - but it takes time and is hard to do. For longer posts? I often print them off, read them later then respond the next day - if the post is still there. (I do this with a lot of Om's posts btw). If it's not there? I'm out of luck. I think that happens to a lot of people. I remember posting an essay once and getting several emails a day later about how they wanted to respond to it but it had gotten archived.
It happens. It's not personal - it's just the wonderful world of voy. (Took me at least 6 months to figure it out.)

;-) SK
[> [> [> [> [> [> I've become a cautionary tale! -- Darby, 13:09:30 10/31/02 Thu

Who knew that meme subthread was going to take on such a life of its own, that it can be used as an example of the rampaging board-eating monster and is mentioned in title warning-lines?

But I'm not taking it personally, he said while sniffling.

No, no, it's fine, it just shows how you never know what sort of response you'll get - or not. Sara's finding the latter kind of demoralizing, but it's part of the landscape one has to adapt to.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> LOL! -- shadowkat, 09:59:45 11/01/02 Fri

Meme thread was hardly a board eating monster in comparison to the Misogyny post which took over the board for almost two weeks. LOL!

I don't blame the threads, Darby, I blame voy. And btw?
Of all the boards online, ATP tends to keep stuff from archives the longest. Most posts on other boards barely make it two hours before going to archives.

We're actually spoiled over here.
[> Good God! What did I create? -- Deb, 00:03:36 11/01/02 Fri

[> [> The board acts in mysterious ways. ;o) -- CW, 05:22:35 11/01/02 Fri

[> [> [> And the irony is... -- shadowkat, 10:55:47 11/01/02 Fri

The post you wanted everyone to respond to and wanted to survive often gets archived rather quickly...while the one that you really just wanted a quick answer to? Seems to last forever. ;-)

LOL! There's no predicting people.

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