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Guess what I got through the post this morning? -- Rahael, 10:18:08 10/28/02 Mon

Season 5 DVDs!!

Yes, I shall be quite busy tonight

Hope to get at least two done for the board today.

But first, work backlog to finish, at least 6 very overdue emails to write, etc etc.
[> Re: Guess what I got through the post this morning? -- Rob, 11:22:24 10/28/02 Mon

I'm sooo jealous! My favorite season (so far)! And here in the US we're still chomping at the bit for the season 3 set in January!

Rob
[> Re: Guess what I got through the post this morning? -- Masq, 12:02:03 10/28/02 Mon

Remember our chat discussion, re: posting the transcripts.

I live on the edge!
[> Oh Goody!!!!!!!! -- Rufus, 14:27:03 10/28/02 Mon

I wish they were mine... can't resist channeling Anya from Blood Ties..:):):)
[> Fool For Love: Doug Petrie's Commentary Part 1!! -- Rahael, 14:43:51 10/28/02 Mon

Yeah, thought I'd please the Spike fans to make up for all my Spike sceptical posts! Here goes, haven't checked this, just literally typed all the way through the commentary.

"Fool for Love"

Commentary by Doug Petrie

Scene of Buffy fighting a Vampire in a graveyard. (no commentary over the Spike-y bit of the teaser)

Hi this is Doug Petrie, you lucky DVD viewer/listener and this is Fool for Love. And this is Buffy, kicking a Vampire's ass. I remember writing this guy as a kind of a Van Halen-y hair do guy........we hadn't done the 80s hairband Vampire for a while, so there he is, in his full Van Halen, Def Leppard do.

Buffy just got stabbed! That never happens. But it happened this time. And I'll explain how we came up with that.

[Credits role]

That scene, which was very very short, was also very very typical and we used that deliberately because there are so many scenes in BtVS that open in a graveyard, she fights a Vampire, she makes some jokes, she's a little bit cocky, and then she slays the Vampire. This time we wanted to show that her job is intrinsically dangerous and that she's risking her life every time that she does that, which we've gotten away from a little bit because she's so good at her job, so we deliberately had Buffy in a very typical, you know the most iconic situation we could get her in and have her pay the price, have her take a big old stake to her gut. I think it was Joss Whedon's idea to have her stabbed with her own stake.

[Buffy pulling bloodied stake from her stomach]

And here we pick up, a little blood dripping and she can't believe it. And I love that, I love that thing sticking out of her. It's such a weird show. Beautiful women getting stabbed with their own stake and karate fighting and you know, the whole scene.

[Buffy fighting Van Halen Vamp]

Vampires are intrinsically dangerous, vampires are tough. Buffy's been kicking their asses for so long we wanted to re-establish that her job is dangerous. And this the danger of it.

Big build up and

[Riley bursts into the shot, knocking down the Vamp]

Riley shows up! Which is fun. I love working with Marc Blucas, he's a really cool guy.
We always talk about adding a little bit more special effects to the taser effects. Our big template for that is R2D2 in Star Wars when the J(???) zap him and the little blue laser beams go swirling all over his body. We always want to do stuff like that.

[Riley is bandaging Buffy's stomach]

Whenever it says "guest starring David Boreanaz" people go crazy. This was my first time working with Juliet Landau and she's just the greatest. I always wanted to write Drusilla dialogue, and I got to! Which was very exciting for me.

We're playing a little bit of a sex metaphor here. Not wanting to get caught by mom. It was really tricky with Riley at this point. Here's this guy - he's strong, he's handsome, he's capable but he just can't keep up with the Slayer. So Riley feels a little bit left out here. A little bit like a wuss.

And it's fun having Michelle Trachtenberg interrupt intimate scenes

[Dawn rushes in]

There she is, interrupting an intimate scene! Using the word "sexcapades"! Hiding stuff from mom is kind of a fun thing. It's a standard of the show.

This episode was written very quickly which is usually a recipe for disaster and much much rewriting. But something kind of clicked with this one. We knew it was a special episode going in. It was very much designed as a two-parter with the Angel episode that was to immediately follow, back when we were on the same network. I asked Joss Whedon, "what do you do when you're working around the clock at the office and you need to sleep, and there's nowhere to sleep?" and Joss told me "go down to the sets" because the sets have really comfortable beds. I actually wound up sleeping in mom's room. I was looking at all the beds like Goldilocks, trying to find the right bed to sleep on during the marathon writing session. I tried Xander's bed but that wasn't quite right, and then I tried Buffy's bed, but that just felt awkward and stalkery-fan boy. And then I tried mom's bed and that was just right.

[Riley being lurky in the graveyard, followed by non-lurky Willow, Xander and Anya]

I love these shots. I think the director uses a slightly wider angle lens on some of these, and it just makes Riley cooler. Here's our gang, kind of the goof balls.

Riley gets darker and darker throughout this season, and I think this episode was kind of a turn for him. We wanted to separate him from the Scooby gang, because look, they're all colourful and having fun and eating potato chips and he's all business. And I think he's heading down a bad path. He's going to snap later on.

[Buffy and Giles talking in the Magic Box]

What's fun about this episode was that we got into Vampire lore, and slayer lore and the history of what it means to be a Slayer. One of the reasons this episode is well liked is because it goes for the core of the series. If you're a big mythology freak, the way I can be for my favourite tv shows, this really explains a lot about what it is to be a Slayer and what it is to be a vampire and what their relationship is like, and the intrinsic risk of Buffy's life and what she goes through and what she's afraid of. She's a woman who risks her life all the time, and we have to remind ourselves and the audience that this is a risk, it's not just a given that she's going to win all the time. One of the things I love about the Buffy mythology is that it's a given that she's going to die, she's going to be killed in the line of duty sooner or later. She knows that everyday she's living on borrowed time.

Another theme we're building here is Giles' increasing inability to really help Buffy with her training and how painful that is for him. Cos he loves her so much and he takes his job so seriously and they've developed such a bond. But there's only so much he can help her.

[Cut to Spike and Buffy in his crypt]

Working with James is fun. When I told him that I had very little time to write an episode about Spike, he gave me a crate of Red Bull which I drank for four days straight and wrote like a lunatic.

[Spike and Buffy talking in the bronze]

Nick Mark our director did such a great job stylistically with a lot of these scenes, one of these being this scene in the bronze, with the camera gliding around Buffy and Spike. It's getting a little sexy between these two, which is a fun thing. It's also very tricky having Buffy be vulnerable in any way when she is supposed to be the strongest character in the series and yet at the same time what good is a hero without vulnerabilities? So putting a big stab wound in her side is a good way of keeping her emotionally strong but physically vulnerable. And her physical vulnerabilities come out in this episode, things get laid open.

It's great too that we put Spike in the role of the instructor.

[cut to William composing poetry]

Spike comes up with the word effulgent, and the only thing he can use to rhyme with it.."my heart expands..it grows a bulge in't". And I was so sure when I wrote it that it was going to get thrown out, it was so preposterous. But Joss Whedon took a shine to it.

If you're really paying attention to the episode you'll notice that this woman, Cecily becomes a Vengeance demon later on in Season 6. The same actress plays Halfrek the Vengeance demon. And how that came about is anybody's guess, because we the writers certainly don't know how it happened.

We always wondered what Spike was like before he became Spike. We knew that he was William the Bloody. There was a lot of conjecture. I think it started out as a joke, that he would be this bloody awful poet, that he was this ponce. And yet we went ahead and did it. Was he always tough, was he always bad? It was much more interesting to make him a foppish dandy in the beginning and have him turn into Spike. What you'll notice too, if you're watching carefully is that you'll see James transform from this guy here, having his feelings hurt, being this dandy poet. Piece by piece he will turn into Spike throughout this episode. Here he's got different hair, different clothes, glasses, a different accent even and no scar over his eyebrow. And you will see one by one him acquire all these things. So he literally builds Spike piece by piece.
[> Fool for Love Part TWO! -- Rahael, 14:45:36 10/28/02 Mon

[Spike and Cecily alone]

Underneath it all Spike is this guy with a broken heart so that even though he changes, piece by piece, step by step he goes far far away from being this guy, at the end he's still this guy. He's changed everything about himself, but he hasn't changed anything. And that makes Spike a lot more interesting. He becomes so vulnerable here, James is a great actor. I love too that he admits that he's a bad poet. He knows his limitations. He's so brave, tell her what he really feels. He knows he's going to get shot down too.

"I know I'm a bad poet, but I'm a good man"

I think he's telling the truth. He's a bad poet but a good man. He wants to be a good man. But that's something he goes far away from as well, in his century long journey from little William the poet to bad ass Spike. He doesn't want to be a good man anymore.

We worked a lot with the Angel writers in figuring out the two parter.

[Spike walks down the street, and bumps into Dru, Darla and Angel]

Here, if you're watching carefully, Spike is going to bump into three people. And they are Angel, Drusilla and Darla. And in the Angel episode, we see the opposite end of that, where we see Angel, Drusilla and Darla walking down the street and some guy bumps into them.

We talk a lot about pulp fiction and how pulp fiction kind of rearranges time and comes back to things and we talked about these two parters as a kind of pulp fiction episode. Where you'd see the B side, and then turn around and see the A side.

[Spike and Dru in the alleyway]

This is actually the B side of a scene. Drusilla comes and she lays this huge line on this poor unsuspecting guy about how great he is and what's brilliant about Drusilla is that she really is prescient, she really can see inside his heart and here's this poor guy who feels so alone and so misunderstood and here comes this strange exotic beauty, coming here and telling him everything he's thinking and everything he's feeling with great intimacy. And then she turns him into a vampire.

But what's great is when you see the other scene, the scene that happened just before, the A side as it were, she's having a fight with Darla and Angel and she says "I'm just going to go out and find the next ass hole I meet and turn him into a vampire and make him into a playmate". So, does she mean it, does she not mean it? Nobody knows. I think she does mean it, and I bet if you ask Juliet Landau, she'll say that she does mean it.

I was talking with her when we were shooting this episode and I said "wow, Drusilla is really crazy" and she said "no, she's not, she really has an internal logic. It's a non-linear logic but she really does make sense". And if you look close enough, you will find it.

She turns into a vampire, and usually when someone turns into a vampire their victim is petrified or frightened or confused. William is still into it. But it hurts, which we've never done before. And then it kind of turns sexual. This is one of the dirtiest episodes I've been involved with. There's a lot of sexual ecstasy metaphors. Sometimes metaphors, sometimes, just sexual ecstasy!

[cut back to Riley, Xander, Willow and Anya in graveyard spying on Vamp nest]

Now here's where we see Riley get a little bit.....another twist in the dial in terms of him taking a darker turn. He's going to blow these guys up in a little bit. You don't know what Riley's up to here, he's a little bit mysterious. He goes in and he sees a collection of stunt men, I believe, having a stunt man party. He says "let's retreat".

[Buffy and Spike playing pool]

I think this section is shot really beautifully. The camera is always gliding around these two. I don't know why, maybe it's a movie thing, but there is something menacing about seeing people play pool. Maybe we've seen so many movies where a barfight breaks out..you've got to be playing pool when that happens.

[Spike being threatened by Angelus, with Darla and Dru looking on]

It's kind of fun to see Angel back on Buffy with his original haircut. Everyone's got great hair in this epsiode. Talking about building Spike piece by piece. Here you'll notice that Spike's changed his accent.. Before, he had an upper crust British accent. Now he has a cockney, almost working class accent going on. In conceptualizing this scene, Joss Whedon was very clear about working class differences and social castes, where Spike very much represents the working class and Angel is more the elite, more the kind of aristocracy.

[Angel and Spike fight]

Look how it makes the girls kind of hot that the guys are going to kill each other. It's all metaphors. The guys are going to drive their poles through each other and the girls get excited by it. It's all very dirty, which I'm very happy about. And here's a throwaway line about a Slayer, and Spike has this response: "what's a slayer?".

[Back to Buffy and Spike playing pool]

Coming up is one of my favourite sequences where he's talking about what the Slayer means to him. I think it's fun and exciting.. what this legendary character means in his world. The flip side of it. To us the Slayer is the hero, and in vampire world the slayer is what you tell little kids about to make them behave. He's like the Keyser Soze, "be careful or the slayer will get you"

That's great, every vampire has a weapon, whereas the slayer has to grab for a weapon. That's not just a cool thing we threw in there, it actually played out when he kills the first slayer in the Boxer rebellion. You'll see that her fatal mistake is that she grabs for her weapon when he already has his. She reaches for a stake and that's what gets her killed.

[Spike fighting Boxer rebellion Slayer]

And there's the scar! Piece by piece! We've seen him acquire the accent, the name and now the scar.

This stuntwoman is just unbelievable. She was really quiet and polite. I guess when you can kick anyone's ass, it makes you really polite, cos you don't have to put on a show. There's she's ready to get him, but fate intervenes, there is an explosion outside.

And now the tide turns, she's getting tired. There goes the weapon. She's still putting up a hell of a fight. She reaches for her weapon and that's what gets her killed. We really played up the monstrousness of it. That's just horrible.

And he licks his fingers. So we're really building a monster here, piece by piece. And when you build a monster, you have to start with a human being, and you realise that they're not as monstrous as you may originally think and they got this way for a reason. Spike is so deeply insecure. A lot of this killing the slayer is has to do with showing up Angel and knowing that he's never going to be as potent or as fearsome as Angelus.

[Spike pulls Dru to him]

This is one of the dirtiest things I've ever written and I'm still amazed we got it on television, where a Slayer's blood is an aphrodisiac, and he's been licking his fingers, he's covered in blood, there's a lot of bodily fluids of all kinds going on here but this thing with the finger, I can't believe we got just that finger on air!

[Dru sucks on Spike's blood covered finger]

Make of that what you will. Part of the building of Spike is that for the first time he has Drusilla. In their gang, Angelus has all the juice and Spike just gave himself a promotion, he just killed a slayer which is something that Angelus has never done.

[Spike and Dru meet up with Angelus and Darla]

This is fun too, the kind of post-coital sloppy walking around during the carnage and chaos. I love that they are just these double dating college kids out having fun. What's great is, that Angelus is hiding a secret here. He's been turned by Gypsies, he now has a soul, so he is revolted by everything that is going on and Spike thinks that Angelus is just jealous that Spike is coming up in the world. The fact is Angelus is freaking out.

This we call the big power shot. That's their album cover right there. That's the greatest day of Spike's life.

[The fanged four walking in slo mo, and then we cut back to Buffy and Spike]

I love that cut, we cut back to him fully formed, with the new hair cut and the black leather coat, and the further twist is that Buffy is revolted by him.

What's fun about Joss Whedon's universe is that for a Sci-Fi horror thing, it has a tremendous amount of depth, and what was fun about writing this episode is that you really get to mine the depth of it. You really get to go to all these places which are always there, but you don't always want to touch upon every week. And here we really..like I said, the deep end of the pool.

[Spike tries to hit Buffy in the stomach]

That's fun, that when he tries to hurt her, he hurts himself. It's a little bit tricky for this ep, Spike has this chip, so he can't hurt Buffy, but how can he demonstrate how to kill a Slayer if he can't hurt Buffy?

[Riley walking into the Vamp nest]

This is where Riley starts to fall apart. He puts up a pretty good fight. I love that he kills the vamp with the same stake. He gets his girlfriend's stake back. Here he does something a little bit out of control, setting off a hand grenade.

[Spike and Buffy fight]

I'm amazed no one cried foul during this scene because we'd established that he cannot hit Buffy but in this episode he throws punches at her as part of a demonstration and he explains that he knows he's not going to hit her, and if there's no intent to hurt her, then it doesn't activate the chip. And if you buy that one, then I say thank you!

He's striking these really deep nerves with her, he's really going to a place she doesn't want to go to.

[Cut to Nicki subway fight]

Nicki is great. I am a big fan of 70s cop movies like the French Connection and Shaft, and this is a combination of all these. This is my fan boy dream of doing a 70s cop movie in New York. We originally thought we were going to do this on the subway platform, and Gareth Davies the producer said, "there's a train over at universal we can use". This is literally done with smoke and mirrors. We used mirrors to make it look as if lights were flashing by.

This intercutting was inspired by, by which I mean ripped off from Reservoir Dogs where Tim Roth's character tells a story in Reservoir Dogs.

Nicki comes back in comic books. Nicki is a favourite of mine, in Slayer lore. I love that she's so tough. She's the Shaft of Slayers. I was very sorry to see her killed, but you got to do what you got to do. She lives on in my heart.

One of the things about the 70s slayer is that we felt it might be a little arch (this is harsh, that's just harsh, I hate to see her go), and one of the ways we sold it to Joss Whedon was the big black coat. He picks up the coat, and that's a bit of a homage to - if you're a comic book fan - to Frank Miller's Sin City. There's this guy called Marv who kills his way up the echelon of this dirty dirty underworld while solving this mystery. And every time he kills a guy, he takes his coat, so he gets a better coat throughout.

And here we have Spike, with the white hair, and the coat and the scar and the accent and the name. And here he's telling something to Buffy that she just doesn't want to hear. And the secret is, she wants to die. And ironically, at the end of the season, she does, she gets her wish. See, we do know what we are doing! Believe it or not, we know what we are doing. Most of the time.

[Spike leans forward, trying to kiss Buffy]

This is a late addition to the script, of Spike trying to kiss Buffy. She just can't believe it, and now he's all embarrassed and it takes yet another turn.

And here she drops the bomb.

And here we see Spike get built up piece by piece, and he's still the same guy, in the parlour with his poetry. This was a big deal. We showed Spike as the bad ass...can we have him cry? And I'm really glad we did. A lot of fans became a lot more sympathetic to Spike around this time. This is a part of that. He cries for a minute. He's the baddest bad ass in town and he's crying because this girl says "you're beneath me".

[Harmony and Spike]

And here we have Harmony for just this one moment. Poor Harmony. She just got so stepped on all the time. And here we have one last flashback. We always wondered what happened to Spike and Dru after they left Sunnydale, and here we see the ugly break up. This is all about people telling other people about things they need to hear but don't want to hear. This is about people asking questions and not liking the answers. Drusilla is telling the truth here. Drusilla has mind reading powers, but she doesn't need them to know that Spike is obsessed with the Slayer and he doesn't know or admit to himself that he's obsessed with the Slayer.

[Buffy and Joyce in Joyce's bedroom]

And here we move the season forward, where mom is quite ill. And Buffy's got problems of her own. What's great about this episode is that its building these sexual and violence like tensions between Spike and Buffy, and it builds and builds and builds, and we know that Spike is coming over to Buffy's house with a shotgun to blow a giant hole in her, and she's hanging out with mom, getting devastated in a whole different way. So you can have a little room here dramatically to play this scene out for as long as possible because we know that something very bad is coming.

In my first draft I wrote a whole monologue for Joyce about how great her life had been. It was absolutely awful! It was just this giant neon sign saying "I'm going to die!"

[Buffy on porch]

Buffy's as vulnerable as she can be. And this something nice and unexpected. I'll just let this scene play out because the actors do so well. I was worried whether it was going to be anti-climactic, but it really isn't. What's going to happen between these two? Is it going to be violence or sex? Cos those are the only two things it could be, those are the two things that have been building, and here comes this giant curve.

She doesn't know what to do with it, and he doesn't know what to do with it. I love that. She decides to allow him to comfort her.

And that's our episode! That's Fool for Love!
[> [> I just have to make a copy for the Trollop Board -- Rufus, 15:46:46 10/28/02 Mon

I just love it when I'm right about how they came up with a character. They did exactly what I thought they did when they took that turn with Spike.....I also believe that they underestimated just how romanticized Spike would become...I didn't. Thanks Rah....It's like getting it all first hand.
[> [> [> No problem -- Rahael, 18:23:55 10/28/02 Mon

Take what you need.

There are still commentaries for "Real Me" and "I was made to Love You". I'll do them if there's any real demand from people for them.

Other than that, I look forward to getting around to watching the outakes. That hasn't been in any of the previous releases.
[> [> [> [> Yes please.....to Real Me and I was made to love you.....;) -- Rufus, 18:34:11 10/28/02 Mon

[> [> [> [> Seconding Rufus request! please! -- shadowkat, 09:26:46 10/29/02 Tue

And any other episode commentaries??

(don't have DVD player so can't get this stuff.) SK
[> "The Body" - Joss Whedon's commentary Part 1 -- Rahael, 17:49:49 10/28/02 Mon

The Body"

Commentary by Joss Whedon

Hi I'm Joss Whedon, writer and director of the episode, creator of the show, I guess you know this by now. You also probably know that this entire scene was used as the last scene in episode 15, as a kind of cliff hanger after a very sweet and kind of silly episode. And also as the teaser for this episode. Never did this before, but we felt it was a scene worth repeating twice.

[Buffy finds Joyce]

It's a little hard to talk over it, especially seeing Kristine lying there, and hearing Sarah say "Mommy".

[credits roll]

That line, very clearly written from "mom" to "mommy" as she descends into small girlhood at the thought of losing her mommy. This episode is one that I did because I wanted to show not the meaning or the catharsis or the beauty of life or any of the things often associated with loss or even the extreme grief, some of which we do get in the episode. But what I really wanted to capture was the extreme physicality, the almost boredom of the very first few hours. I wanted to be very specific about what it felt like the moment you discover you've lost someone.

[Thanksgiving dinner scene]

And so what appears to many people as a formal exercise, no music, scenes that take up almost the entire act, without end, is all done for a very specific purpose, which is to put you in the moment, that moment of dumbfoundedness, that airlessness of losing somebody.

Now this scene I put in specifically, artistically rather, because I wanted to see what they had in happier times and to see Joyce - now I made a mistake, I put Joyce in the kitchen at the top of the scene, I should have had her coming back all during this and taking dishes away so she was a constant presence in all their lives. Of course I didn't think of that until after the show had aired. But it was an indication of how things were great and some of the fun of what the show's like. Also from a more practical reason, I knew I had to have these opening credits, and I couldn't bear the thought of having them over the shot that's about to come, the long take of Buffy first dealing with the body so I added this scene to be the exact length of those credits so I could get them out of the way. So it had a practical application that led to an artistic decision that I think is really useful, it's lovely, it's Kristine and Sarah together having fun. A little even flirt moment with Giles, it's like life goes on, it's very mundane but at the same time it's very very sweet. Well, hopefully without being overly sweet and then

[pumpkin pie falls to the floor, cut to the body]

It's this.

Now this shot this is one long take and it bears watching exactly how long it is especially because Alan Houston the camera man had his camera on his shoulder the whole time and was running around. It wasn't a steady cam. He had no harness because I wanted the urgency of handheld. So he kept recreating frames, recreating frames. This is a very difficult thing to do, kneeling down, getting up. It was an extraordinary piece of camera work, and of course, an extraordinary piece of acting from Sarah, where I made her do this about seven times. To go from the extremity of first finding her, the helplessness of not knowing what to do, all of the things that Sarah had to go through in this, she had to go through many many times. And you know, every take was extraordinary.

[Buffy gives Joyce CPR]

This coming up..this rib cracking experience. Again, this is part of what you'll see a lot of in this episode, which is sort of almost obscene physicality, a little more physicality than we'd necessarily want or are used to. That expresses itself periodically throughout. Because death is a physical thing, there is a body and apart from the sense of loss, which you inevitably feel there is the fact of the Body and dealing with that is an experience that really does stop time.

[Buffy gets up and looks out of window]

We have several instances in this act where Buffy looks out of the window. She goes to the back door, she goes to the front door, she looks out of the window, she hears noises but we never show a pov, we never shot the street outside or the backyard. Because again, it is almost unreal.

[Buffy looks at the suddenly huge phone]

This is the shot for people who don't know what a phone is to explain..no! Again, to me, that's the moment she realises her mother is dead. It's just fixating on something almost meaningless, and I thought that the phone was the thing and that is the first cut in the entire scene, was when we cut to the phone.

[Buffy goes to the front door]

Again she comes to look out, but all we hear is noise because we are completely in her space.

[Buffy notices Joyce]

Rather arch camerawork there, as a way of saying "oh my god, for a moment I had almost forgotten she was there". Again, unlovely physicality there, the idea that her mother's underwear might be showing is gross and upsetting.

[Ambulancemen come in]

Now these guys, good actors both, there to be almost noise in the frame. Very seldom that I feature their faces, a lot of quick cutting, everything is about Buffy and her reaction to her mom and she can't really relate to these people as people. Filmically the idea that they are a blur to her. This was done in slow motion, by the way, but it didn't really show.

[Buffy sees Joyce get revived]

And, [sigh] everyone likes to see a happy ending. And once again, because, I don't know anybody who's suffered the panic of a great loss, without having imagined it going a different way a thousand times or more. So what feels like a cruel joke on the audience is in fact just a very real moment, within the experience of losing somebody. "No they're fine! It's be fine, look it was fine", and then you actually have to come out of the fantasy and the silence is ten times worse because of it.

This is fun isn't it! Aren't we having fun?

[Buffy talking to out of focus man]

Again out of focus, because she can't really deal with him. We're actually coming up to one of my favourite shots:

[Buffy seen over the shoulder of ambulance man]

I squeezed her into the frame as much as possible, so it's like she just didn't have room to manoeuvre and then the shot of him talking, which is just his mouth. This is her reality, she can't get the big picture, she's not having a normal conversation. A normal over would have been her with a tiny slice of his shoulder. Instead, his shoulders own the frame. I took his eyes out of the frame to show her experience of being trapped, being blocked off from reality. It's an obvious thing, not great filmmaking but when I did it on the day, I saw the over and "oh, he's a little too much into the frame..oh, keep pushing it, give her less room".

Her saying good luck, again your priorities become so strange. She wants to be polite to those gentlemen, that's not important, and yet...

[Buffy vomits]

Again the physicality of throwing up at the same time the focusing on the chimes and the window and not going with her, not playing linearly, but her experience of hearing those chimes and of feeling that breeze at the same time as throwing up.

Again, this is her looking out, but it's about her face and the trappedness, hearing life going on, but clearly not seeing it, needing the air, but getting none. Difficult to shoot because there was a lot of walking, a lot of going from place to place, because again I didn't want time cuts that let you out of the moment. I wanted to everything like this, step by step. Sometimes things get truncated

[Gile's voice is heard]

Giles gets there quickly, but we all know how small Sunnydale is! I deliberately kept him far away and her close up. This next part, very difficult for Sarah, because she had given everything in every piece and we had shot

[Giles goes to Joyce's body]

sequentially. And for her to get back to that level of intensity, to say that line, the body, and realise what it means that she called her mother a body was very difficult, and that was my fault, because after the first shot, we just went on. We should have gone straight to that, because she was at that fever pitch.

[Joyce's body being zipped up in bag]

She blinked here once, the only time, and we removed it digitally. It's amazing what you can do. Kristine was amazing. 8 days of lying around.

[Dawn and friend in bathroom]

This is a classic misdirect. We think she's crying about her mother and in fact she's crying about the stupidest thing imaginable. That was simply to show that you think is important in life is important until you get confronted with something that is. What's interesting about this act, this for me was the biggest risk, because it's not about mom, it's not about what's going on, it's about something we couldn't care less about. Will that boy like her, will she get along in school, these little things,, I'm telling a little teen high school short story from the point of view of a fourteen year old girl when there's a dead body in the narrative. But I think part of what I wanted to get at was the complete ridiculousness of that at the same time the importance of it to the person going through it and this act then becomes about the revelation.. the telling. This is the only time we see someone have to be told, so I wanted to spend an entire act building up her life before I tore it down, but for an audience, they could easily go "hey, we're bored!" But I don't think anyone is particularly anxious to return to the story because its not exciting or fun, it's a horrific kind of thing, and there's a kind of relief in having this little romance.

[artclass]

[Joss slurps his tea] Now the incredibly loud sound of me drinking my tea. Which you're now a part of! You the audience have experienced my tea! Isn't that beautiful? Aren't DVD's amazing?

So the idea is, nice cute boy (he wants you!) the nice cute boy the cute story, the kind of resolution...and I liked telling their story....she's being all intense about the pain she's been through. They've got this 14 year old thing of "I've been through so much" which nicely counteracts what's going to happen.

Buffy should come in any moment now. Oh! It should be when Dawn's at her happiest! That would be my signature!

[Buffy walks into shot while Dawn laughs with cute boy]

Now we are out of Dawn's p.o.v, we aren't in her experience. There's this thing coming, that she's not aware of. But watch her face when Buffy says her name. She knows. She doesn't know what she knows. She just knows something. In that moment she gets older.

All of these cut aways. Her experience, like that of Buffy becoming very specific. We hear the chalk we see the statute. Everything that's around us takes on a different kind of significance and is almost like a statute because we know something is going on.

[Buffy and Dawn go out into corridor]

I shot this scene in every possible way. We shot this on Monday, because I didn't want to put Sarah and Michelle through that at the end of Friday, but we did take a long shot from the classroom. Then we shot it on Monday. Michelle did just an extraordinary job every take. Sarah too. And then, I decided not to use any of it, and I fell back here, into the classroom using the stuff we had shot on Friday. I realised I didn't need to see Buffy tell her. I didn't need to hear, I didn't need to be directly in the moment. That after what had happened, here in school, what I wanted to show the environment it takes place in. And not the actual moment.

And then we get to the female body that she's drawing, which again, represents a kind of physicality, trying to see the reality of something. The teacher talks about the outline of it and not the thing itself.
[> "The Body" - Joss Whedon's commentary Part 2 -- Rahael, 17:52:27 10/28/02 Mon

[shot of Joyce in the mortuary]

We start every act with Joyce

Some people accused me of being morbid because we shot so much footage of Kristine lying dead but again the body, this is what it's about.

[Willow and Tara getting ready, Xander and Anya in the car]

I wanted to tie in the car again I wanted to see the physical reality of the place and I wanted people to understand that everything was happening simultaneously, so they didn't have that feeling of being let out of what was happening. Everything is taking a little bit too long.

Aly's cute in this, and absolutely heartbreaking. It was the hardest thing for me to shoot, not for her, but for me. I don't know how she can do this but every take that we did, she made me, and everyone around me cry, the two of them..I don't want to talk when I see her like that. I get too upset. The jokes in this scene come from perspective. The ridiculousness of perspective. I went to nine stores looking for a black tie because I thought I should wear a black tie to my friend's funeral and I became obsessive about it. I was like it wasn't real if I didn't wear a black tie.

This contains the kiss, the first kiss they did on screen. And instead of doing a big "they kiss on screen!" episode, we stuck it right in the middle of this episode, again the physicality of it. And they talk of being "strong like an amazon" that's a reference to a Frank song which I don't know if a lot of people got. But it's a song I really like, and which I thought would be
appropriate and not just cos she's gay!

[Anya and Xander walk to Willow's room]

Getting back to the kiss, what's real, what's physical is what I'm attuned to here. Later on, when Dawn says "I need to pee", I had her say that rather than "I have to go to the bathroom" because I wanted everything to be a little too much, and of course, we'll see more examples of that because [funny voice] we'll see lots more shots of a dead body, of Buffy's moth-er.

[Xander and Anya in room with Willow and Tara]

Another reason I dropped back on the Buffy and Dawn scene was I knew I had Willow coming up who was also going to be her in face with the tears and to do it with Dawn as well felt like the same beat. Following a banjo act with a banjo act!

The inevitable high and wide Hitchcockian we're all tiny and life is terrifying shot.

This was a horror to shoot. This was an entire scene with almost no blocking. Everyone was in their spot, in their place. And that too was deliberate because you can't really move. And this was about their helplessness. They're the scooby gang, they're supposed to be on top of it, helping out, but they've got nothing. Everybody that I spoke to while I was writing this, everyone who has lost someone has a story about it, an attitude about it and it all fed into this. But a lot of it came from my own experiences of losing my mother, and losing other people. And not just of my grief, but of watching everybody else's. And everybody here deals in a different way. Tara deals the best because she's been through it before, which is a revelation we get to later. Xander gets angry because he doesn't know what else to do and we see Tara reacting to his anger and this desire to make it right. Willow of course, wearing her heart on her sleeve and completely at sea. The clothing thing becoming just something to latch on to. His anger allowing her to become cogent enough to become the grown up, to help him.

And of course, Anya. Her part in this is something that most people remember best of all. She just seems to be Anya, asking horribly inappropriate questions every five minutes. Emma's performance here is lovely. She goes into her speech. What people are responding to beside the performance is a kind of plot twist. No one expected that much sensitivity from Anya. So when she breaks down and expresses really the heart of the experience, the very very basic "I don't understand". It moved people even more than I expected. Partly because it is a plot twist, because "oh, she's just insensitive" and then...this happens. I was very specific with her about going up on "why" like a little girl. I wanted that to reflect all the vulnerability of a child. And that gives Willow an understanding of what she's going through. Again, they are all separate.

[Anya finds a stuffed toy in a blue sweater on the seat]

My wife and I are enormous fans of a little Japanese fellow, called Burnt Bun boy (?), and when I got a stuffed Burnt Bun Boy I had to put him in the show. That of course is the blue sweater she's been talking about. A life's little irony thing. The sudden noise...again, rather than showing what Xander's done, just hearing it and seeing the result, because again, it's not about the cool action of punching something, it's about the startlement of having someone punch it, or the realisation that you just did. Every thing changes in the scene because now they have something physical to latch on to. And they get to become the Scoobies again. The whole thing of - some people didn't get this - the whole thing of having look at his hand with the blood and being better when he sees it, again physicality as a living thing, not just a dead thing. And Tara understanding that. The fact that it hurts is a good thing because it hurts less than the other thing.

Alyson was allergic to the plaster and her eye swelled up enormously, and she actually had to go to hospital where they had to give her steroid pills and everything. We figured that it must have been the plaster later on.

[Willow runs back to get a new top]

And one more beat of "no, wait I need to change my clothes one last time" and then out to getting a parking ticket. Connecting the physical space and saying "life going on". Not stopping for your grief.

[Joyce in the mortuary]

It's Kristine again! I have to confess in this next shot that I am a huge Paul Thomas Anderson (?) fan and I had been watching Magnolia obsessively so these endless tracking shots probably owe something to that. What can I say? I'm a hack. But what I am really trying to get at here is the reality of the space. I wanted to see Joyce very clearly, and then walk all the way over to Buffy was, where her loved ones were, so you understood she was down the hall, she was really there, in a shot with them.

[Anya hugging Giles]

A moment of humour. Emma Caulfield, god bless her will always give you a moment of humour.

[Buffy and Dawn talk to Doctor]

I shot this so everyone was slightly more solid than Michelle was because a lot of this act is to with her alienation and her feeling of the unreality. Buffy has been through this, she had dealt with the body, she broke her mother's rib, she went through a very terrifying version of a loved one's death. What Dawn is going through is different. She's going through the disbelief because she hasn't had the physicality. Dawn's problem here, which Buffy doesn't understand because she's in her own space, is that it can't possibly be real while for Buffy it's all too real. And those are two different experiences which are common.

Are you depressed yet? Because it's not getting any better. There'll be a vampire later!

Dawn just unable to connect and Buffy unable to connect with her. My experience of death is that apart from a lot of hugging at funerals, it seldom brings people together. It tears them apart. And I had learnt from tv that death made everybody stronger and better and learn about themselves and my experience was that an important piece had been taken out of the puzzle amongst my family or friends, and that piece would never be replaced and that people would never be the same and that there is no glorious pay off. There are sometimes revelations and lessons that are useful, you have to take something out of it because it's inevitable and none of us are getting out of here alive! That's why this time a lot of people would turn to what Tim Minear calls the "Sky bully" but since I don't believe in the Sky Bully and don't really have that to fall back on, I haven't really found any lessons in death other than I wish it wouldn't.

[Tara and Buffy alone]

The uncomfortableness of being left alone with the person you don't know very well, in your moment of extreme grief, who doesn't really want to be there because it's your moment of extreme grief. Holding this two shot for a long time, waiting. Tara's last line is almost a plot twist in itself.

I was surprised how many people actually did gain comfort from this, and a kind of catharsis. People emailed and wrote and said that they had suffered a loss, sometimes they're mother and it had either been concurrent with or it had happened years before and had never been able to deal with it until they saw this episode, which moves me more than I can say. It surprised me though because I really was after a feeling in the first few hours when there is no solution or catharsis or anything else, and just to capture those moments. For people just to see that and to take something from it because it's happening to people they love and understand, I think, is what worked. And that was a lovely revelation that just finding a moment and expressing it, and expressing human behaviour at this time without drawing any grand conclusions about it was enough. Was communicating enough to people to give them comfort. That to me is why I'm here. Not that every episode I make is likely to be this depressing!

[Dawn trying to find Joyce's body]

Sometimes we have jokes and all kinds of things on this show! It's really very exciting. The long walk down the hallway, different than than the walk for the doctor, for the doctor it's a completely run of the mill experience, for Dawn it's a horror. Literally. We are dealing now with death. The reality of her dead mother. So all of a sudden, what was a brightly lit episode- too brightly lit, light in the faces of people who wanted to be in darkness - turns into what appears to be an episode of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Very cold, very blue.

[Dawn standing next to a corpse under a sheet]

This is something she needs to do. And other people have expressed this need. I need - I can't quite - but I need to know what it is, I need to see it.

[Vamp sits up behind her]

And then that - that's not helping anybody. Some people were like "Why a vampire in this episode"? But I was very specific about it. I wanted a vampire who looked more like a corpse than anything else.

And here's Dawn confronted not only by a Vampire but a naked man. It's an intrusion. It's offensive. And completely physical. And that's what I...

[Xander Willow and Anya, arms full of food]

They're so cute with their food! And believe me, the giving of food is a huge ritual of death. It's usually not vending machine food. I'm explaining death as if anyone watching this hasn't experienced it! I'm just explaining why I did that.

But the idea of the vampire is that it is an intrusion, it does belong here the way Tara finds herself the only one sitting with Buffy and not feeling like she belonged. But she actually she had something to offer. But life goes on, and on BtVS, that means horrible things happen.

[Buffy bursts in on Dawn struggling with vamp]

And this fight was done differently than any other fight I've done before. I made it as much of a gross wrestling match as I could, you know, hands in the face, and fo course, pulling the sheet off of Joyce, in the worst way possible. But rather than a great cool kickboxy fight I made this like a genuine struggle. I wanted to stress the reality of it.

[Dawn sees the tip of Joyce's head]

Dawnie is getting what she was looking for - and the frames are never as clean as we want them to be in this episode. When I kill him, I do it in the worst way possible because I wanted to be in your face with it. If I say physical again, or real, you guys are just going to turn this of!

And then we are into the end

[Buffy and Dawn slowly rise to look at Joyce]

I desperately wanted to go from Buffy to Dawn to the three. The fact of death being physically real and physically unreal is expressed here in the last shot after Dawn says those words, words that cannot be answered by anybody, and reaches out to touch her mother in a show that's all about physicality. This girl needs to know, to understand. But never touches her. And that was done very specifically. And some people were like "oh that means next week Dawn's going to heal her with her key powers!" and I was like what show were you watching? It meant - we want to touch it, but it isn't there. And to go out just before she touches it was just to express that, to express what I've been talking about the whole way. There is no resolution there is no ending there is no lesson, there's just death.
[> [> Thanks so much Rahael!! -- ponygirl off to read them all, 18:10:10 10/28/02 Mon

[> [> This is great ! Thank you so much Rah ! -- Ete, 04:29:49 10/29/02 Tue

[> Re: Guess what I got through the post this morning? -- Dead Soul, 20:08:48 10/28/02 Mon

Mine shipped last Thursday but I don't expect to see them until the end of this week at the earliest - they've got to travel a good halfway round the world.

Rah, you are testing the very furthest limits of my will power but I will be strong and not read your transcripts. (Although, Brava and Hurrah for providing them, especially so quickly!)

Dead (but still feeling the envy and admiration) Soul
[> OMG, coolness overload! So much commentary goodness! Thanks a million, Rah. -- Rob, 21:35:14 10/28/02 Mon

Oh, and Rah...if you do feel like gettin' around to those "Invisible Girl" annotations soon, I'd really appreciate it. Since I'm severely deficient in Rah-notations for that ep. ;o)

Rob
[> [> Re: OMG, coolness overload! So much commentary goodness! Thanks a million, Rah. -- Rahael, 04:38:54 10/29/02 Tue

I'm going to give you some annotations tomorrow!

Umm, last night kind of got swallowed up by all that typing. 5 hours straight!
[> [> [> Re: OMG, coolness overload! So much commentary goodness! Thanks a million, Rah. -- Rob, 07:19:08 10/29/02 Tue

"Umm, last night kind of got swallowed up by all that typing. 5 hours straight!"

It's scary, sometimes, what we do for the love of "Buffy." If I knew how much work you were doin', I never would've whined about those annotations! Take your time!

Reading "The Body" annotations gave me chills, I swear. I can't wait to hear Joss say it, with my own 2 ears.

Rob
Anyone catch the Oedipus "eyes" reference in 4.1? (SPOILER) -- wemogil, 11:36:52 10/28/02 Mon

In light of 4.4 and the clear Oedipus allegory with Cordelia, suddenly the dialogue in the opening sequence takes on clever but chilling significance...

From the script:

"Cordelia leans even closer, their lips inches apart.

CORDELIA
Well, play your cards right...

CONNOR
Do I have to watch this part?

Angel ruffles Connor's hair.

ANGEL
I could poke your eyes out."


NICE!
[> Nothing like foreshadow-y goodness! (4.4 spoilers) -- ponygirl, 12:08:15 10/28/02 Mon

Yes, I had remembered that line too, but was too lazy to look it up today.

I also noticed all of the beds that we saw this episode. We had Wes' bed as the stage for both the warm and fuzzy moments and also for Wes and Lilah's mutual betrayal, and then again it was place Wes realized he had been played. We see Cordelia on her new bed trying to figure out her life, almost but not quite connecting with Angel. We see Cordy in Connor's bed, sleeping alone and with Connor. Then we have Angel at the end gazing at his perfectly made and perfectly empty bed.
[> Well, now that's just... disturbing (4.1 and 4.4 spoilers) -- Masq, 12:25:00 10/28/02 Mon

"I could poke your eyes out."

I remember that line as being a bit jarring at the time. Here is Angel's happy-happy family thing, everything's loving and playful, and that joke-threat really came across as kind of violent. Not in a way that it detracted from anything, but I wondered why the writer went with that line.

In retrospect, with the idea of Oedipus and poking the eyes out, I'm wondering if I should re-think the speculation I've posted on the board today that to the effect that the Cordy-Connor thing is more episode preview hyperbole than anything else. Looks like there is some real Oedipal sub-text being developed here.

Which I still hope will be one-sided on Connor's part. I don't see Cordelia responding for a variety of reasons (stated elsewhere).
[> [> Re: Well, now that's just thought provoking (speculation-o-rama) -- pr10n, 13:42:19 10/28/02 Mon

Well. Let's suppose that Angel isn't really the father here.

Because it's easy to hear that vampires can't be fathers or mothers and then say, "Angel has a soul, and Darla was human for a while, so ok, in for a penny in for a pound, plot-wise.)

But if I'm a little more cynical, then maybe Angel is just cuckolded and Connor's father is someone/thing else.

Then just what is slouching towards Bethlehem, this time? Connor would be a lot more interesting to Wolfram and Hart if he's really the Boss's heir.

And now turn with me to Revelation 4:10 where we read, "The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne..."

And suddenly Lilah isn't playing football anymore.
[> [> [> Exegesis required -- alcibiades, 14:32:39 10/28/02 Mon

And now turn with me to Revelation 4:10 where we read, "The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne..."

And suddenly Lilah isn't playing football anymore.

Not up on Revelations. Could you unpack this please and especially how it relates to Lilah.

I assume it is God, or the likeness of the image of God (to invoke Ezekiel) who is sitting on the throne.
[> [> [> [> Re: Exegesis required (still so speculative) -- pr10n, 14:53:48 10/28/02 Mon

Of course this is One Entity's Opinion:

Regarding reading Cordy's song, Lorne said that the Book of Revelation was the place to go if you need adjectives.

Lilah braindrained Lorne, thereby knowing Cordy's reading.

She told her lackey to tell the troups that they were "4 and 10" (THAT depends on how you hear things and my TV sucks).

That statement has been interpreted as "football code," which it is, for the position in American football where the team with the ball elects to kick it downfield, giving the ball to the opposition in a defensible field position, rather than attempting to gain more ground and losing the ball.

The lackey tells the strike team, "Punt," the technical term for kicking the ball away on the 4th and ten (yards to go) situation.

My idea is: Lilah was really refering to Revelation 4 and 10, the quote about the throne and the worshiping Elders, because Connor is the Beast, the Son of the unGod, who Wolfram and Hart have been looking for. He's not Angel's sone at all, and Angel has been forced into the Joseph role, hence the (admittedly blasphemous) idea of cuckoldry.

I hope that helped. And I'm used to being off base, especially when I'm brainstorming, so tell me if I'm a few jugs short of a swamp band.
just looking for a bit of confirmation about last night's angel... -- Sheri, 12:02:39 10/28/02 Mon

Was a certain someone's HAND where I think it was?????
[> Oh yeah... -- Masq, 12:11:55 10/28/02 Mon

Not sure how I feel about that. Cactus Watcher has some interesting insights into Connor's sexuality in the "That old creepy feeling" thread below.

It's a preview to the things to come next week, I suppose.

Repost of my own post on Connor?Cordy below follows;

I just got done erasing a spoiler post title to the effect that Connor would be "making the moves on Cordy" next week.

Maybe he will, but I doubt it will come to anything. The WB isn't as bad as UPN when it comes to misleading promos (did anyone ever get seriously ANNOYED with the hyperbole and misleading nature of Voyager promos??), but I think it is a misleading promo.

The reason I don't think it will come to anything is I don't see Cordelia responding that way to Connor. For one thing, she is seriously vunerable right now and doesn't need someone taking advantage of her. For another thing, she has seen the photos of herself with baby Connor, and even if she doesn't remember it, her first re-introduction to Connor when she got back to Earth was him as an infant in the photos. That's got to stick in your mind when some guy makes a pass at you.

But I also think Cordelia will have a visceral reaction to the idea of being intimate with Connor in that way. And that has to do with the way memory and memory loss works. If you remember in Tabula Rasa, Willow lost her memory of who she was, who here friends were, her whole life. But she retained not only an attraction to Tara, but an emotional connection to her. So did Buffy and Dawn.

Memory of one's identity and emotional memory reside in different parts of the brain. I think Cordelia will retain the emotional memory of maternal feelings towards Connor, even if she doesn't remember the events that lead to those feelings.
[> [> Spoilers for AtS 4.4 and 4.5 preview above!! -- Masq, 12:13:12 10/28/02 Mon

[> [> Ha! I knew it!!! (and my dad said I was just imagining things when...) -- Sheri--who's glad to know that she's not just seeing things, 12:22:25 10/28/02 Mon

...I started jumping out of my chair screaming, "ok, young man... just WHAT do you think you're squeezing there?????"

slip of the hand.... uh huh.
[> [> [> Don't get me wrong -- Masq, 12:34:09 10/28/02 Mon

I don't think Connor put his hand there deliberately. It kind did just fall there. But the fact that it just fell there wasn't a throw-away as far as the writing of the episode meant. I think they are planning to explore Connor's previously stunted sexuality.
[> [> [> [> Re: Don't get me wrong (spoilers) -- CW, 13:01:07 10/28/02 Mon

Initially, I had the same thoughts as you, Masq. But, then I asked myself what was he doing in bed with her in the first place. Cordy is still suspicious of everyone. She knows no one. Would she really say it was OK for someone who just admitted he tried to kill her once to sleep in that same small space with her? And after the incident in question, he was alert and touching her on purpose. I don't think he has the faintest idea of how to act around women. I think he innocently crawled in after she fell asleep not knowing how he was going to react to it himself.
[> [> [> [> [> Obvious so obvious (spoilers) -- pr10n, 13:33:06 10/28/02 Mon

I kick myself [grunt] at how obvious my post is, but Connor has no mother. No "nurture being model" at all. I mean, Darla gave herself for him, and that's a Pieta level of Motherhood, but Connor was all Holtz all the time, over in Hell, and we don't know if Holtz dated while he was there but I'm thinking no.

I think CW is right on: "I don't think he has the faintest idea of how to act around women." If all the spawning creatures around you, regardless of gender, have egg sacs and Acid Spit (speculation) then you won't know what to do with your compact and muscular 17-year old self around Cordelia who was actually nice to you once and "smells good" and curvy much?

Assuming of course you aren't attracted to the hunting, protecting Acid Spit gender, a valid life style choice.

Liking the Season 4, over here!
[> [> [> [> [> I'll buy that... and other thoughts on Connor and women (4.4 and season 3 spoilers) -- Masq, 13:33:57 10/28/02 Mon

I like the idea that he got into bed with her under mixed motives, some he was conscious of (sleeping, protecting her), some which he was not conscious of (curiosity about women).

He's not completely innocent, of course, he has already been kissed by a woman--well, girl--and enjoyed it.

But yeah, 16 years in a place where the only females you ever saw were members of demon species (if they even had sexual species there), and all you knew of human women was told to you second hand, I'm surprised Connor is as blase about women as he is.

I expected him to be a little more fascinated by the drug-user Sunny's femaleness in the episode, "A New World". He treated her like someone to rely on, someone to protect. Didn't even know what she was doing when she kissed him. I'm glad they didn't do any lame dialogue like, "You're a girl! My father told me about girls!", but still, Connor has been shown so far as being very low-key about females, considering he's pushing 17.

The only other females he knows to any degree are Justine and Fred, and they were both very much in the mother-figure role with him. Fred more so than Justine, but Justine was certainly taking him by the hand in the guidance-way, rather than the boy/girl way.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Other thoughts on Connor and women (4.4 and season 3 spoilers)(now with Buffy question added!) -- Darby, 05:00:39 10/29/02 Tue

How long can one live on the nighttime streets of LA where Connor has been, off and on, for months now, and not pick up the gist of how males relate to females? If anything, I'd expect Connor to have a very skewed idea of how things are done - and who knows what sorts of attitudes Holtz might have given him on top of that?

I also have to say that all of the "accidentally got his hand there" theories are valid, but that's usually the sort of progression that's shown to the viewers. I think that 1) we are supposed to speculate, but 2) it's not accidental.

Here's a question for the keen of eye - in what pre-S6 Buffy ep did Spike "cop a feel" and show that, although not planned, it was definitely NOT accidental?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Connor -- CW, 05:18:27 10/29/02 Tue

I guess nobody knows for sure about him. But, I see him as a severe loner, which is why the idea of a family seems very attractive to him. In whatever hell he grew up in, there was only family (ie Holtz) and enemies. No such thing as friends as far as we know. What we know of his life away from the hotel in this dimension, seems to be mostly a prolonged hunt for demons to kill. That is again something he'd be familiar with.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Answer to triva question -- shadowkat, 12:34:25 10/29/02 Tue

"Here's a question for the keen of eye - in what pre-S6 Buffy ep did Spike "cop a feel" and show that, although not planned, it was definitely NOT accidental?"

Triangle. When Buffy fell into him after the Troll knocked them aside. He cops a feel as they struggle to get up again. And he has an evil grin on his face a mile wide. ;-)

There might be another one. But that's the one I remember.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> We have a winner! -- Darby, 13:18:25 10/29/02 Tue

I only kinda sorta noticed it - had to replay the tape to really see it.

One assumes JM cleared the grope with SMG before the shot - or was it "improvisation"?

That sort of "in the moment" can get your lights punched out...
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> There is another -- ponygirl, 13:30:17 10/29/02 Tue

In Something Blue, when Buffy reacts to Giles knocking over his drink watch Spike's hand. Noticed it on a repeat and friends said I was nuts, until I taped it and did some rewind action.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I'm pretty sure it was choreographed -- Isabel, 21:07:56 10/29/02 Tue

If for no other reason than it definitely wouldn't show up on screen. (Although she does give him this weird look...)

But seriously, there's another big clue it was planned. For the first time in almost a season, Sarah was wearing a bra.

This was season 5. She wore skimpy little backless halter tops all the time. Except in Triangle.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Don't get me wrong (spoilers) -- alcibiades, 13:35:30 10/28/02 Mon

I agree with Cactus Watcher about the extreme on purposeness.

That hand was there on purpose.

It makes so much sense on both the psychological and the physical level.

On a physical level -- obiously -- it's a breast: male response: want to squeeze.

But it also makes sense on a psychological level.

Cordy is the only mother Connor ever knew (besides Fred over the summer). The breast is associated with mother's milk and nurturing.

His current memory would also encompass the realization that Cordy nurtured him like a mother last spring when she went all demony glowy.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Two points (OMG, pun NOT intended!) **Spoilers** -- Wisewoman, 14:57:17 10/28/02 Mon

#1 I believe that Connor and Cordy where lying in bed, sleeping in a "spoonlike" fashion and that Connor's arm was over Cordy's shoulder. Cordy then stirred, rolled onto her back, and Connor's hand slipped onto her breast. Yeah, yeah, I know he probably wouldn't have tried to prevent it, but I really didn't see any intent in the actual shot. However, I don't have the ep on tape so I'm going on my memory of a single viewing.

#2 Again, given only a single viewing, I was under the impression that Connor and Sunny had managed to engage in carnal knowledge of each other before she O.D.'d. Just my take on it, but yeesh, if I keep being so out in left field I'm gonna start to wonder if I'm really watching the same show as everyone else.

;o)
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Two points (OMG, pun NOT intended!) **Spoilers** -- alcibiades, 06:55:37 10/29/02 Tue

#1 I believe that Connor and Cordy where lying in bed, sleeping in a "spoonlike" fashion and that Connor's arm was over Cordy's shoulder. Cordy then stirred, rolled onto her back, and Connor's hand slipped onto her breast.

Watch it over. His hand moves up to her breast on purpose.

When she rolled over, if he had been asleep, the natural movement of his arm/hand would not have been up.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> But what purpose/ -- Masq, 09:10:48 10/29/02 Tue

Still not sure he was copping a feel. He may have sensed the natural motion of his hand as she turned (moving downwards) and compensated in the other direction.

Maybe he was even doing it in preparation to wake her up or cover her mouth as he did next.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Er...sexual tinglies -- alcibiades, 09:36:42 10/29/02 Tue

Still not sure he was copping a feel. He may have sensed the natural motion of his hand as she turned (moving downwards) and compensated in the other direction.

Can I say his aim was true? He sure was compensating. He hit the center of the target. And Connor is an excellent marksman.

Can I ask why you are hesitant to believe that he was copping a feel? Is is the squick factor? Or something else?

Maybe he was even doing it in preparation to wake her up or cover her mouth as he did next.

Well it did wake her right up. Her eyes went wide in shock.

We'll have to see what ME has Connor reveal next week.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Plus a little more seriously (g)...well a lot more seriously -- alcibiades, 09:53:55 10/29/02 Tue

Just to add to this.

Connor lives among the beasts -- as we saw very clearly in his place of chosen abode. He has surrounded himself by animals. And, unlike humans, animals don't have an incest taboo.

In the first episode of Angel we saw very clearly that ME was talking up the alpha male jargon with Fred and Gunn. Fred thought that Connor was mad at Gunn because of the way he dealt with him in a certain scene because he was the alpha male -- in fact, Fred and Gunn were clueless about what was going on with Connor.

And now, Angel, the real alpha male has returned. This episode, like so many of the Angel episodes is about family.

Connor is a young lion. He wants to challenge the old alpha male. He wants his own pride. How does a young lion do it -- he takes over the alpha male's courageous lioness.

That is what he learned about families on Quortoth. He makes his home among the animals because he understands their ways.
He really has no other model.

Anyway, more on this anon when I write my review on the episode.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Fascinating...I'm willing to go there -- Wisewoman, 10:42:33 10/29/02 Tue

But maybe that's only because I'm finding Connor uncommonly appealing, and I suspect he has more chemistry with Cordy than his old man does LOL!

;o) dub
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Um.... -- Darby, 12:37:33 10/29/02 Tue

Many, many animals have "incest taboos." It is reflected in lion society (the boys are ousted from a pride before they're fully grown, so they don't get to oust Dad) and in pheromone feedback in several studied species (and probably lots more) - when selecting mates, females are most attracted to those least related to them.

Interestingly, some human societies do not have much of an incest taboo, and studies have shown that the genetic problems predicted just don't seem to be there. But that's explainable - combining lethal genes is bad for a population, but only in the short run - over time, the genes get removed and the population is in some ways healthier. In long-standing human cultures where marriages among relatives are okay, that may have happened.

I know that has nothing really to do with Connor, but my bio reflexes were tweaked.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> More bio-geekiness -- matching mole, 13:21:33 10/29/02 Tue

I'd go further than Darby and say that almost all social animals have behavioral traits that reduce the probability of mating between close relatives.

The interesting exceptions are things like some kinds of parasitic insects in which the probability of ever finding another member of your species beyond the siblings you were reared with is very low. These species tend to have very skewed sex ratios, producing mostly females which is another story.

Years ago I remember reading something that postulated that incest avoidance in humans worked through a tendency to not perceive people with whom you spent a large amount of time as children as potential mates. Evidence was cited from Israeli kibbutzes in which unrelated children were reared communally. Despite approval of the idea of intra-kibbutz marriages these were apparently rare. I have no idea if there is any other support for this idea or if any of what I said about kibbutzes is true. But it does raise an interesting point (to me at least). Connor was raised outside of human society - his only human contact being Holtz. I find it difficult to believe that he would regard Cordelia as being related to him in any way. Or that relationships, other than father to son, would seem very real to him at the moment. Up until a few months ago they would have been, at best, abstractions.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: More bio-geekiness -- yabyumpan, 14:06:33 10/29/02 Tue

"I find it difficult to believe that he would regard Cordelia as being related to him in any way. Or that relationships, other than father to son, would seem very real to him at the moment. Up until a few months ago they would have been, at best, abstractions."

I doubt that he would feel that Cordy is related to him as such although there was a definate 'mothering' vibe in 'Benediction' with the whole 'soul colonic' thing. That being said, he is in many ways, a normal, hormonal 16 year old who over the past few months must have gone into sensory overload with the female population of L.A. esp with his hightened senses. I doubt that Gunn or Fred gave him the 'sex talk' so he's functioning in that area purely on instinct. His first real contact with a female was Sunny, she was 'nice' and she kissed him, setting off those hormones, probably for the first time. Cordy is also 'nice' and very 'female' (what 16 year old wouldn't be attracted), he was also able to save her where as he couldn't with Sunny.
Even though he was brought up without a mother figure, I would say that the need to be 'mothered' is instinctual so I think there are probably some very confused and conflicted emotions going on with Connor right now regarding Cordy, she has given him 'mothering' of sorts in 'Benediction' but she is also very attractive. He is also very alone, even though he was with Fred and Gunn through out the summer he had to keep some distance from them because of Angel-in-a-box, so I see Cordy's presence also forfilling a need not to be alone. It was interesting how he cuddled up to her, I wonder if he ever got that sort of closness from Holtz apart form in his first few years. I doubt that Holtz would have 'mollycoddled' him, esp as he had to train him to survive.

It's an interesting and pretty disturbing story line. Not least because if they do actually 'go there' with C/C it could be classed as statutory rape (I believe the age of consent in California is 18). It could also be considered that, because Cordy has amnesia, any sexual encounter would be nonconsensual, she would be doing something she would not normally do in her right mind. I think this is the big difference in comparing it to Angel/Buffy, as some people have done regarding the age thing. Buffy was more emotionally/sexually aware than Connor (having been subjected to a lifetime of sexual imagry via the media etc) and both were fully aware of who they were and what they were doing and who they were doing it with. Neither is the case with Cordy and Connor. Cordy may know, because she has been told, that Connor is Angel's son and that her and Angel were 'friends', but she has no 'emotional'/inner knowledge of that.

Saying all that, I personally don't think they'll go there, I think it's probably misdirection, which I've outlined in reply to Rob's post above.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: More bio-geekiness -- alcibiades, 20:31:22 10/29/02 Tue

Years ago I remember reading something that postulated that incest avoidance in humans worked through a tendency to not perceive people with whom you spent a large amount of time as children as potential mates. Evidence was cited from Israeli kibbutzes in which unrelated children were reared communally. Despite approval of the idea of intra-kibbutz marriages these were apparently rare. I have no idea if there is any other support for this idea or if any of what I said about kibbutzes is true. But it does raise an interesting point.

Interesting.

I had heard of a study that proposed something of the opposite -- that there was often a strong sexual attraction between siblings who grew up not knowing each other and who met in later life without knowing the other was a sibling. OTOH, the same study purported that unrelated people who grew up as siblings usually had no sexual attraction to each other. Which would support your kibbutz study.

In any case, as you point out, in Angel the incest taboo is more in our minds since we have seen Cordy treat Connor as a baby. It might be in her mind -- but she has conveniently lost it, and it certainly would not be in his mind. After all, it was Cordelia who saw the picture of him as a baby with his putative parents, Angel and Cordelia.

The picture was never shown to Connor.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> More info requested -- alcibiades, 19:36:29 10/29/02 Tue

Many, many animals have "incest taboos." It is reflected in lion society (the boys are ousted from a pride before they're fully grown, so they don't get to oust Dad) and in pheromone feedback in several studied species (and probably lots more) - when selecting mates, females are most attracted to those least related to them.

Okay, let me get this straight because most of my lion knowledge comes from shows on National Geographic and other nature shows, obviously not on par with academic studies.

But I was pretty sure that sometimes, after the young males are kicked out, they come back later on and mate with their relatives. So now you are telling me the opposite. Of course, I could be getting lions mixed up with horses or wolves or some other animal show I watched.

Does this never occur in lion society? Or do I have my facts completely wrong here.

Also, as for human societies, I was just having a conversation about this the other day based on an article in the NYReview of Books, and one point that came up in the review was the dearth of human societies where there was a lack of an incest taboo -- that seems to be one of the principal components of primitive religion -- setting up an incest taboo of some sort -- and there are very few human societies with no form of religion at all.

So could you be more specific here -- what human societies have no incest taboo?
[> [> [> [> A few thoughts on Connor -- Rufus, 15:03:20 10/28/02 Mon

There are a few things about Connor that come to mind. First off he is not just a regular teenager like we are used to. And remember teenagers can mature at markedly different rates. Connor is in a conflict over identity, he really doesn't know "what" he is...he only knows who he is.

Connor is in some ways "old", his only companion for the first 17 years being someone who was much older. His way of thinking shaped by a man not only much older, but from a time long past. Connor is a proficient fighter, but still is immature in interpersonal relationships. I think that's why I didn't buy Fred at a parental figure for him, both were too immature.

Connor and Angel are reenacting Angels relationship with his father.....hell, Connor has already symbolically murdered his father...though Angel proved a lot harder to kill than his own.

Angel has thrown Connor from his home, much like his own father. There are a few differences in that Connor had done far more than the drunken Liam had....will that act of casting Connor out have as tragic a result? We do know that Angel hovers over Connor in a way his own father would not have.

Connor calls himself Connor now because he has accepted who he is, he may not like it, but with Holtz dead, it will be Angel that will shape what Connor becomes.

Cordy was the one that gave Connor that full body colonic, she was the one who comforted him....it makes sense that he could become confused in regards to the mother response and the sexual attraction he appears to have begun feeling. With Cordy in a state of amnesia, she will have less boundaries in respect to age and relationship with Connor....so look out for the next few eps we may all be poking out our eyes.....;)
[> [> Re: Anything that makes Angel crazy is just fine by me! (Spoilers AtS 4.4 and preview 4.5) -- Just George, 17:06:00 10/28/02 Mon

Masq: "I just got done erasing a spoiler post title to the effect that Connor would be "making the moves on Cordy" next week.

"Maybe he will, but I doubt it will come to anything. The WB isn't as bad as UPN when it comes to misleading promos (did anyone ever get seriously ANNOYED with the hyperbole and misleading nature of Voyager promos??), but I think it is a misleading promo."


It is quite possible it is a misleading promo. However, I think that a C/C (Cordy / Conner) relationship is too powerful a story line to miss. Given their history, ME will go one step (at least) farther with the story line than some fans are comfortable with. In my mind, that means at least having C&C consummate their relationship, perhaps even having Conner rub it in Daddy's face at least once.

As a viewer, I found the opening moves in the relationship were surprising and comforting. Conner needed someone to need him. Conner has no direction in his life. Being needed is a powerful force for forging a life direction. Cordy needed someone to be straight with her. Conner was completely trustworthy, he told the naked truth as he knew it. When a person is vulnerable (as amnesiac Cordy was) trust can be more valuable than gold.

Besides that, I thought there was some heat in the C/C scenes that I never saw with C/A. Right now they look a bit too much alike (earth tone clothing and bowling ball hair cuts), but the actors are doing a fine job with the material.

Besides, a C/C 'ship would drive Angel crazy. (I love my son because he is protecting the woman I love / I hate my son because he has the woman I love.) It is pure speculation, but I look forward to Angel and Conner fighting over Cordy and then her stepping in to tell them they are both acting like children!

I think the things I like best about the C/C story line are:
I didn't see it coming,
It was presented in a way where both Cordy and Conner acted in character, and
It leads to intense conflict among three of the show's core characters.

This is the kind of storytelling ME is best at!

And finally, anything that makes Angel crazy is just fine by me!

-JG
[> [> [> Mild Spoiler for preview 4.5 -- LadyStarlight, 08:21:55 10/29/02 Tue

Did anyone else think, after watching the promo for next week, "who the h*ll was letting Connor watch cheesy porno films all summer?"

Or was that just me? ;)
[> [> [> [> Yes! What was it exactly that he said? Whatever it was it leads me to believe... -- Dichotomy, 10:08:56 10/29/02 Tue

That something intimate happens or almost happens with C & C. He says something like "Why don't you give me some more (training/instruction/something like that)" while embracing her from behind. Kind of like "Hey Mr. Tennis Pro, how about some private lessons (wink, wink)?"

What makes me think that Cordy either does become more intimate with Connor or almost does, is the expression on her face when he delivers the cheesy porno dialogue. She doesn't look surprised, but does look as though she's about to rebuff him. As in "Oh, Connor, what happened (almost happened) was wrong, and it can't happen again."

Admittedly, the glimpse of that scene is brief, but that was my impression after watching it a couple times.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Yes! What was it exactly that he said? Whatever it was it leads me to believe... -- Just George, 17:18:29 10/29/02 Tue


Dichotomy: "Oh, Connor, what happened (almost happened) was wrong, and it can't happen again."


Interesting take on the scene. What elements in Amnesiac Cordy's actions (in 4.4) or base personality (In BtVS or AtS pre 4.4) lead you to think that she would find intimacy with Conner "wrong"?

To my mind, Cordy's base personality never had problems with expressing physical intimacy (ask Groo). Amnesiac Cordy doesn't remember anything about loving Angel. She trusts Conner. Why would she find it "wrong"?

-JG
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Yes! What was it exactly that he said? Whatever it was it leads me to believe... -- yabyumpan, 17:42:24 10/29/02 Tue

"Amnesiac Cordy doesn't remember anything about loving Angel. She trusts Conner. Why would she find it "wrong"?"


Maybe because he's a 'minor', maybe because she's seen pictures of herself holding him as a baby. She may have amnesia but it doesn't take much to work out that if she held him as a baby she may well have changed his nappy's and had him throw up on her. Not something you realy want to have to think about when you're contemplating taking someone as a lover. I also don't see her as some one who would harbour fantasies about initiating a 16 yr old in the ways of 'lurve'.
[> Sheri, did you get my email?? (sorry about the hijack) -- LadyStarlight, 15:34:10 10/28/02 Mon

[> [> Nope! Can you resend, please? I like email! -- Sheri, 16:43:08 10/28/02 Mon

[> [> [> You've got mail!! -- LadyStarlight, 19:12:15 10/28/02 Mon

TeacherBoy gets his comeuppance, and *how*(kinda long) -- TeacherBoy, 13:34:51 10/28/02 Mon

Don't you just love it when bad things happen to other people, especially when they deserve it? Yes? Then read on, my friends. You are going to love this.

Ok, so I was already feeling a little bad about my overly sarcastic reply of a few days ago. I started thinking, 'TeacherBoy, maybe you are too used to interacting with the rest of your friends, all whom speak in a language that resembles English, but consists almost entirely of sarcasm, irony, and general smart-assiness [note - it's not that I was unaware of this, but the following events simply put them in a new light].' So I'm getting ready to go out for a while, reading the local paper (Seattle P-I), when I read the following article:

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/artsentertainment/134561927_kay250.html

(FYI, the article can also be accessed via slayage.com, because it talks about Joss Whedon. See? It's not totally OT).

Although I would recommend reading this article before preceeding, I will tell you that it's about supposed 'tv auteurs', that they are the bane of the television industry, and that their days are numbered. BTW, I just wrote a long and drawn out defense of myself, but let's get right to the videotape. Here is what I wrote to her:

*

My friend and I were talking about your column, and we had a few questions about the subject you brought up (actually, more like some of your premises):

1. You compare the TV auteur to a corporate CEO. Perhaps you were just being glib to make a point, but for a TV columnist, this doesn't speak well for your credibility. You can't possiblly think that the effort that goes into creating a show for television is in anyway comparable to sitting in a boardroom, or golf course, or wherever. If you do, feel free to visit Los Angeles and follow around one of the people that you mention in your article.

2. Using this point, you maintain that these auteur-types are taking away valuable airtime from other, more deserving shows:

"Yet these favored few have exercised an influence that runs counter to TV's alleged marketplace meritocracy and affects what millions of viewers get to see. Their mediocre projects are likelier to get on the air, often because a network and/or studio already has an investment in them through multi-show deals. And the more shows they have, the more power they wield, getting time slots that can bump better shows."

'Marketplace meritocracy'? Seriously? This is the point at which I relaxed, because if you really think that David Kelly (who I can't stand) or Joss Whedon (who I can stand a bit more) is doing a bad thing by depriving the world of more "Everwood", "Fear Factor" or, hell, whatever doctor or lawyer show is on this year, than we just have a serious disagreement on what constitutes "better".

3. My last point is about the problem you seem to have with these auteurs getting production deals, or the ability to do more shows based on one hit they had. Kay, you of all people should know how the television industry works. Producers make the big money off shows that go into syndication, not the crappy shows that come and go every year. So why is it so wrong for production companies to give these gentlemen another shot at turning out another hit? Or does rewarding success somehow violate your 'marketplace meritocracy'?

Besides which, why fault the individuals, rather than the production companies themselves? For example, Joss Whedon, whom you cite in your article, does not have a deal with a network, he has a deal with 20th Century Fox Television (obviously, since he now has shows on three different networks). From what I understand, the networks are under no obligation to actually pick up these shows. If the networks then do, in fact, pick up of the their shows and it turns out to be a bomb, then maybe the network shouldn't have picked up the show in the first place.

There is plenty of blame to go around for bad television, and singling out an 'auteur' is misleading in some cases and silly in others.

*

Now, I did not think this was out of line at all, and I certainly didn't write this expecting a response. I just wanted to let her know that I thought the entire premise of her column was mostly bogus. I also assumed that a newpaper columnist would have a lot more to do than to repond to letters. Whoops. [quick side note - I emailed the article and my response to several of these 'friends' of mine just to see what they thought, since they are all writers. They all thought it was great. That's when I knew I was in trouble.]

Since I know that you're all thinking the same thing (what a dick!), let me reprint what Kay McFadden wrote back to me in, oh, 5 minutes.

"I'd respond to your points if you hadn't already insulted my credibility and called my article "silly" and "misleading." Your mind appears closed. What you pretend to frame as questions below are simply snide comments. Perhaps you are more effective in your communications with people face to face rather than through the anonymous cloak of e-mail."

Yikes!!

Yes, ladies and gentlemen, that's right - *I have become the troll*. I just stared at my computer for about 10 minutes before coming to the following conclusions:

1. Man, I really *am* a smartass.
2. Never question the credibility of a newspaper columnist in the first paragraph of a response. This, apparently, does not go over well.
3. Contrary to popular belief, newspaper columnists do not, as previously thought, have thick skins.
4. Have I really become a troll? All I could think of is my response of a few days ago. I've heard of the shoe being on the other foot before, but this is just ridiculous.
5. Finally, being a smartass can really be a problem for one simple reason. She never addressed my points. I did not, as she probably thinks, write her with a closed mind, intending to be snide, etc. I just thought the entire point of her column, that 'tv auteurs' are bad for television, was wrong, and that, yes, her line of reasoning demonstrated a serious lack of knowledge of how the television industry worked. This, I would think, would be bad for a TV columnist. I was extremely disappointed that she just told me how lame I am instead why I was right or wrong.

Well, thanks for indulging me. The funny thing is, my lesson was learned several days ago, so I don't know what this is. Reinforcement? Anyway, everyone keep up the great posts, because my days as a poster are officially over, and my days as a lurker are beginning again. Cheers!

TeacherBoy

Hey, wait a minute! I just reread the last line of her response. Jesus, how snide is that! Ah, a woman after my own heart...
[> Over? Never! -- ponygirl, 14:22:27 10/28/02 Mon

C'mon Teacherboy don't give up! You're certainly not a troll, and your letter wasn't especially harsh. It probably hit close enough that the columnist got a bit defensive and picked out a few words out of your letter. From the journalists I've known "credibility" is definitely one of those hot button words that's just going to get their hackles up. Also it's still a bit easier to believe that actual people don't read letters sent into newspapers, tv shows etc. I used to answer mail for a tv show and when I responded to cranky letters the writer would either soften their stance and adopt a much more conversational tone... or go totally insanely rant-y.

As a smartass myself, far more so in person than in print, I sympathize with the struggle not to always go for the jugular when talking to people. I've been called on it a lot and have tried for years to be more self-aware -- and then half the time end up hurting someone's feelings with something that seems completely innocent to my ears. But giving up posting? How are you ever going to overcome your so-called problem? All you can do is just try to be aware of what you're saying, to try and censor yourself without muzzling your wit. It ain't easy, but when I'm actually in a disagreement with someone I try to remember something I read in a book on Buddhism a few years back. The gist of it was that we should always ask ourselves if we're actually trying to change another's opinion and help them learn, or just build up our own egos by hearing ourselves speak. That thought has shut me up a lot of times.
[> Re: TeacherBoy gets his comeuppance, and *how*(kinda long) -- acesgirl, 14:56:22 10/28/02 Mon

TeacherBoy, I too suffer from a serious case of sarcasticitis with a heaping side of smart assiness. It is the reason that I post very minimally and try to stick with basic facts or minor opinions. But, since you are being so forthright, I will own up in turn and say that I thought your response of a few days ago was very funny. Really funny, in fact. I returned to the board over the weekend to see all the well reasoned replies admonishing your response and then I felt bad. I felt bad because I thought your response was funny and then I felt bad that I felt bad, because deep down in my gut I wanted to say "geez louise, can we lighten up a little bit?" (Ok, for the record I would never really say "geez louise", so please feel free to insert an appropriate expletive into that sentence.) For some reason smartass seems to play a lot better in a room full of people who can see your face and know your name, but on a message board with just words and a made up pseudonym - not so much. I can't really speak to the rest of your post as I didn't read the article to which you refer, I just wanted to let you know that you aren't alone.

acesgirl (making her way back to lurkersville to sit next to the other irregulars)
[> Re: TeacherBoy gets his comeuppance, and *how*(kinda long) -- Deb, 15:03:04 10/28/02 Mon

I made a post about trolling versus argumentation that other day that stated structure was an important factor in determining which is which and what is what. The other factor being motivation of the communication. Many, or a few, I don't know, disagreed that grammar, structure, etc. had anything to do with it. It has plenty to do with it and your post, which I might add must have taken a great deal of guts to share, proves it. I had a somewhat similar experience with my thesis advisor the other day.

I had made the mistake of choosing the outcome of my research first, and then saying I would back it up. I was rather cocky with the belief that I knew it all already, I just needed to show everyone else. I know better than this.

I'm a "smart-ass" myself, so are my friends. My posts are at times cocky and self-serving (need an ego inflation today Deb?) So I'm attempting to view things more from the angle of how I feel about something and how my feelings are legitimate. They are legitimate as everyone else's feelings.

I'm not positive I understand what your motivation to stop posting is other than you learned something about yourself and it was a bit frightening. If there is more to your decision, well, it is yours to make. I just hope you don't just lurk, but approach posting differently. Own your words and don't bash those of others. (General statement. Not saying you bash.) No one must be "right" on this board, and we all have those times when we walk away from the computer wondering just how much of a jackass we were today. Somedays are simply not good days to post.
[> Don't worry... -- Rahael, 18:54:55 10/28/02 Mon

Warning - a rant about certain journalists. Some of them are lovely. Some of them buy me drinks and meals and behave with great generosity and thank me when I help them out. However, I loathe the days when I get lumbered with running our press office because some can be rude and horrible and take out their frustrations on you.

A year ago, one of them started shouting to me about how dare I not find her people to interview, within 2 hours. The news programme she worked for suddenly started finding us extremely uncooperative. Last week we had an incredibly polite researcher from that programme ask me, at 8pm to fix up an interview at 10.30pm. I did. Only they decided they couldn't do it at that studio, and didn't bother telling me it was off. Good thing I was sitting around the office at 9.30pm, checking to see whether it was still going ahead.

There are some newspapers and newsprogrammes which deliberately cultivate a spirit of nastiness, arrogance and "I'm going to trample over you, you minion who is doing my job for me, even though it's only as favour". I have never encountered in ordinary life anyone more resembling the trolls we get on the board than certain members of our British media. All I know is, a few of them are horrible to the people they think they can get away with being horrible to.

I've been in your position vis-a-vis the board, and you
seem to be handling it with more of a sense of humour and maturity than I ever did. Check the archives - you'll find it is a rare regular who hasn't indulged in extreme sarcasm attacks, pseudonymous postings attacking trolls, psuedonymous postings to disagree with other regulars. Plain out and out mean spiritedness, etc etc. What does this tell us about ourselves? We are human. We sit here posting and none of us can tell what kind of day we've had, or how we're feeling when we post.

Taking that into consideration, it's to our credit that it is still the friendliest, sanest, politest board around. And no matter what mistakes you've made, great or small, you're not going to lose everyone's respect. Good god, look at the show we watch. Look what our most beloved characters do.

As Acegirl has pointed out, not everyone agrees with each other. The one good thing about this community is that we can be a community without indulging in groupthink. You aren't safe from disagreement or agreement here whether you love Campbell or Nietzsche, Buffy or Spike, Season 6/5/4/3/2/1, and soon, no doubt 7.
[> Re: TeacherBoy gets his comeuppance, and *how*(kinda long) -- Arethusa, 07:01:52 10/29/02 Tue

I know exactly what you're going through. I've embarrassed myself several times here before this, and probably will do so again in the future. Forgive yourself and continue posting. We smartasses just have to remember to not use our powers for evil.
[If you stick around, you'll see that you're not one of the regulars until you've declared you'll never post again. ;)]


Arethusa, your partner in crime.
[> [> LOL -- Sophist, 08:20:56 10/29/02 Tue

[> Happens to the best of us -- shadowkat, 08:21:48 10/29/02 Tue

After I posted my S&M essay I got an email that tore me, my posts, my essays, apart limb from limb. It accused me of misusing my writing gift (which I'd spent thirty years developing so sorry not a gift! I only wish) or using it in a hateful and derogatory manner and misquoting people or using quotes to support my own "hateful" views and how my words hurt people of other cultures. I was completely devastated. Unfortunately I'd opened the email at work...and on a particularly bad day.
But at any rate I couldn't read it without bursting into tears.

Friends from the boards convinced me not to stop posting. Because I really did consider leaving the online community for good and never writing another buffy essay again. I also considered not posting the second part of S&M essay. But they told me to ignore this email, it was after all just one person's opinion and just to make sure I never quoted that person and to stay away from certain topics. I took their advice and shakingly returned to the boards. But it took a while. And to be honest? I'm still a little gunshy.

This was just one email. So yes my ego's a fragile tiny thing...LOL! And boy can I identify with your pain. My advice, don't let someone you've never seen or met
stop you from writing an opinion or essay or post.

50% of the people will agree with you. 50% won't. It might even be a 40/60 split. And we all make mistakes. Occassionally come off more snide then we intended or mess up on a quote.

At any rate...this is a long round about way I saying I empathize. ;-) SK
[> Re: -- aliera, 09:17:19 10/29/02 Tue

This seems to be Murphy's Law of Posting...followed by your worst experience will generally follow immediately after you post how much you love the board! (not here of course;-)Feeeel the love...ouch! ouch! ouch! Thanks for this though and I hope you do keep posting...hilarious.
[> Re: TeacherBoy gets his comeuppance, and *how*(kinda long) -- akanikki, 10:34:53 10/29/02 Tue

New poster here (lurked for a couple of weeks, but just started posting), but I still want to chime in and vigorously support what everyone else has said. I just want to commend you for even writing to her and to validate that this lurker thinks you are right.

Apparently, Kay McFadden found an angle that no one else had exploited and she went with it. Who knows her agenda? She might have a family member, SO, or friend who is in the tv business and has ranted about this in the past. Obviously she did some research, but not really very much in depth. And she did not respond to you - instead she did the kindergarden equivalent of "You said mean things, so I'm not talking to you".

Frankly, I had read her article before I saw your letter/posting and was surprised at her conclusions. I could not be bothered to write her a letter as I thought she was so off base, why bother. At least you gave her article more respect that 99% of the people who did read it. Whether she agreed with your tone or not, I think your questions should have been answered.

If you are really bothered by this (and have the time), have you considered writing her again - rewording your very reasonable questions in a manner she would find unobjectionable and sign your real name? She does have one very valid point - she is using her name to stand behind her writing, while the rest of the world gets to take pot shots by email.
[> We invest a lot of time defending our egos, don't we? -- Caroline, 10:59:13 10/29/02 Tue

TeacherBoy, I think it's quite brave of you to put yourself out there for public examination. I am extremely snarky in person (it's really hard being Australian in America 'cos many Americans don't understand taking the piss) but try to be more literal in written communication just because of these types of misunderstandings. We've had several discussion threads in the past about how the cues we get from face to face communication (tone of voice, inflection, body language et) are not present with written communication which means we need to be more careful with the impact of the written word. I've often written a reply and then deleted it - because I've realized I'm being too snarky or just trying to inflate my own ego. Waste of time.

Your journalist obviously got her ego defences into play here (another waste of time) and didn't see that she could quite possibly undermine you by not taking offence and refuting your arguments. And she would also have the ego boost of feeling superior to you because she didn't stoop! To call her arguments silly etc is not what I would classify as reasoned argument but her response was way more out of proportion. You at least attempted to understand and refute her arguments, she completely dismissed you ad hominem.

There's a way we often deal with trolls around here - someone will come in and say that Buffy is no better than a cartoon so we start an entire thread about the incredible literary merits of cartoons and comics. (That's my favourite anti-troll thread - I wonder if this qualifies for collective ego inflation?). I like the fact that people here are really funny, snarky, ironic, have evil alter-egos yet they rarely stoop to personal attacks. I don't contribute to or read any other boards so I'm not sure about the prevailing etiquette elsewhere but I really like this place because, for the most part, we try to be respectful of one another and that's important to me. I want to talk about stuff that interests me, not engage in personal conflict.
Angel's Past - Spoilers for 4.3 "The House Always Wins" -- YesPlease, 13:37:54 10/28/02 Mon

I searched back to find discussion on this subject, but did not find anything. But, if this is a rehash, my apologies. This is also my first post, so please be kind.

I was very confused by Angel's comments on his past in 4.3. He tells the gang that he hung out with the Rat Pack, and was even a crasher at Elvis and Priscilla's reception. It seems like this party hearty Angel is diametrically opposed to the Angel we knew before.

"Ya know, I did have a life before you guys came along."

Was he hanging out, being fabulous? Or was he a cadaverous self-hater who ate a rat a week?

I see these lines in two possible ways:
* Angel posturing in front of the gang to make himself look/feel good. But why? They know him. They love him. Now he wants to be the cool vamp?
* Forgetfulness on the part of the writers, in the pursuit of the quick laugh line. I hope this cannot possibly be the answer either, but fear it may be.

Any thoughts? Previous conclusions that I missed? Thanks
[> Re: Angel's Past - Spoilers for 4.3 "The House Always Wins" -- Apophis, 14:23:21 10/28/02 Mon

I figured Angel was trying to impress his friends. That doesn't mean he was lying, though. When he mentioned the Elvis/Priscilla wedding, he said he was drunk and surly. Perhaps he was in Vegas trying to drown his sorrows. I don't know what he was doing with the Rat Pack, though. Maybe he fell in with the Mafia in the '60's or something.
[> There was a discussion of this last week -- Masq, 14:31:26 10/28/02 Mon

It has since fallen into archive "limbo"--not in the voy archives, not yet in the ATPoBtVS archives.

There were two opinions, as I recall. One found Angel's claim inconsistent with Angel as we now know him (less than sociable). This opinion was that he wasn't making it up, but that he was really passing off anecodotes he'd actually heard about these people, and it came across as sounding as if he knew them.

The other opinion is that he did know them, and it is explained by lingering "Liam" elements in Angel's personality, the 18th-century version of Angel that knew much better how to party.

Since that episode, I've watched the episode "The Shroud of Rhamon" from season 2 again, and Angel did know about the vampire Jay-Don who hung out with the Rat Pack, but Jay-Don didn't recognized him when they met. However, Angel was quite good at impersonating the "colorful" outgoing Jay-Don later.
[> [> Re: Angel's Past -- AngelVSAngelus, 17:06:50 10/28/02 Mon

Unfortunately, I'm not entirely familiar with/certain of the era in which the Rat Pack were prominent figures, but I'm thinking it predates the fifties.
Angel in the fifties was not yet homeless in New York, and though he was in a humanity shooing mood, he didn't completely seclude himself. He was, after all, in the Hyperion surrounded by paranoid Red-scare era denizens.
It seems plausible to me, assuming I'm right about the time in which the Rat Pack were young and partying, that Angel, prior to arriving at the Hyperion so soberly bitter, would've been in Vegas drunken, beligerant, and depressed in typical Liam fashion. Takes a while, even with guilt, to change from partying artistic monster to completely down trodden, solitary smelly brooder.
Though I guess in Spike's case it took only three months, heh.

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