October 2002 posts
ATPoBtVS "LESSONS" annotations -- ZachsMind, 12:45:34 10/17/02 Thu
What follows is a very very rough approach to what will eventually be http://atpobtvs.com/71.html. This will probably not be what the final result looks like at all. I just got impatient waiting for the ATPoBtVS powers that be to get around to putting up a finished page, so I thought I'd tackle a rough start for one. PLEASE feel free to add, edit, critique, reflect, or do anything to the following by replying to this thread.
Lessons - Season 7.1
The Metaphysics of "Lessons"
THE PARANORMAL IN GENERAL
What are the lessons that Buffy teaches Dawn? Lesson number one. "It's always real." Whereas in the real world if one were to be uncertain it's safest to be a sceptic, in Buffy's world being a sceptic regarding the unknown can get you killed.
GEOGRAPHY of the HellMouth..
Xander explains by way of blueprints that where the Library was in the old school, this new school has the Principal's office in that same place, meaning the HellMouth is located directly under the new Principal's feet. This means Wood's either an accident waiting to happen, or he's gonna turn out to be a servant to The Big Bad by season's end. Which is left uncertain. Also uncertain is why the HellMouth has to open geographically in the same place every time. If it's a dimensional rift between realities that has been closed shut, what's to say that same door couldn't just open up somewhere else? IS the HellMouth limited physically in this plane? If so, is that a weakness that can be exploited?
WILLOW's Powers..
"When you brought me here, I thought it was to kill me. Or to lock me in some mystical dungeon for all eternity here, with the torture. Instead you go all Dumbledore on me."
At present we've learned the Coven was unable or unwilling to extract from Willow the magic power that now dwells within her. She still maintains the potential to become Dark Willow again, and her powers seem so acute that she can commit the equivalent of spellcasting by merely thinking about it. Her Cosmic Awareness is also quite acute and her interaction with the Earth is quite intimate and tender. Precisely how powerful she now, is left unanswered this episode.
"QUESTION: Does Anya even HAVE a soul?" And if so, where is it? This is a question of some debate. She must have had her soul when she was human, but did she ever lose it? Is a vengeance demon a human given demon powers? If D'Hoffryn doesn't get Anya's soul, what's in it for him?
Good and Evil in "Lessons"
ANYA: What is this, an intervention? Shouldn't all my demon friends be here?
HALFREK: Sweetie... they are.
Ironic here that we're looking at two demons who are seeing evil as good and good as evil. The conversation is familiar, but a reverse image of a similar conversation that might occur between Willow & Xander. Where Xander would question whether Willow's inching towards the dark side again, here we see Halfrek politely suggesting to Anya that she's being too good and nothing ..maleficial (NOT malevolent and not beneficial but _maleficial_) to her new future as a demon can come from that. She must begin acting evil in order to retain and regain her status. Yet she's been tempted by goodness and is having difficulty turning her back on that. If she doesn't mend her ways, Anya will suffer, just as Willow suffered in the reverse when she turned from good towards evil. Anya used to be a Vengeance Demon. Then she lost her powers and became human. Now she's a Vengeance Demon again and has had the whole summer to get back into the swing of things, but we learn her superiors in "the biz" are unsatisfied with her efforts. She used to be cold and hard and merciless. Now that she's been human, her soul is no longer cold and hard, so she's having difficulty being merciless. Not only have Anya's human friends turned on her, but she doesn't seem to have many demon friends either. Halfrek has been a friendly rival over the centuries. Now it seems she almost feels pity for her fellow "justice demon."
Moral Ambiguity in "Lessons"
DOES WILLOW DESERVE THE DEATH PENALTY?
Willow commited at least one murder during her Darth Willow vil spree last season. She was brought by Giles to the oven in England not for punishment, but for rehabilitation, and we learn that they don't even complete her efforts in that.
She killed Warren. Some could argue he had it coming, but did Willow have the right to press judgement? How is what Willow did any better, worse, or different from the inflicted 'justice' of Halfrek or Anyanka? Should THEY be punished for their misdeeds over the centuries?
Willow ultimately just wants to be "Willow" again. Normal. Is that possible? One cannot turn back time but can she heal and be the same? No. She's forever changed. Yet as Giles points out, "In the end, we all are who we are, no matter how much we may appear to have changed."
Nietzschean philosophy
"It's not about right. Not about wrong.. It's about power."
Nietzsche did not believe the human soul was innately morally good or bad. He saw a distinct difference between absolute good & bad versus moral good & bad. One was actualized through the physical laws of the universe and involved power, control, positive attitude, physical strength, passion, creativity, etc. Actual morality was a man-made construct in Nietzsche's point of view, which sometimes went against the grain of actual good & bad.
So, when Joss Whedon puts into the mouths of his characters phrases like "it's not about right or wrong but about power" he's taking the Nietzschean point of view. None of the Big Bads in the history of Buffy were innately evil. Even The Master had his goodness, from an absolutist point of view. The struggle in Sunnydale is not about who is morally right, but who is ultimately going to win the battle. Might makes right.
Ethical Quandaries in "Lessons"
"QUESTION: Vengeance Demon versus Justice Demon?" Hallfrek has said on more than one occasion, and Anya's beginning to follow suit, that the Politically Correct reference to their ilk is now "Justice Demon." They claim not to seek vengeance, but enact justice. Is this the same thing? Is this just another way for a cold hard soul to rationalize what they are doing? How can acting as judge jury and executioner possibly be seen as justice?
Philosophies Represented in "Lessons"
Gaia Philosophy
"I'm learning about magick, all about energy and Gaia and root systems... It's all connected. The root system, the molecules, the energy. Everything's connected... I felt the earth. It's all connected, it is. But it's not all good and pure and rootsy. There's deep...deep black. I saw... I saw the earth, Giles. I saw its teeth."
Gaia Theory is the idea that the Earth as a whole can be defined as an organism. That it is a living, breathing, system metaphorically comparative to that of the human body. It has it's own equivalent of a circulatory system in the form of molten lava, it has a breathing system in the form of plantlife, animal life, and an atmosphere. It has a skeletal framework in the form of plate techtonics. This is an unorthodox view to be sure, but has become quite popular among scientists and philosophers alike, particularly in the latter half of the twentieth century. Many wiccan
worshippers utilize this theory as scientific proof that the Earth is in fact a god of sorts and also like a mother figure to us all. In a way similar to how a single red blood cell in your human body is dependent on your human body as a whole to exist, so too do those upholding the Gaia theory see every separate aspect of the Earth as a part of a greater whole.
Wiccans take this a step farther. Because "Gaia" who is the spirit of the Earth, has this awesome power, said power can be channelled by humans living on it into magical properties and results. It is a matter of conjecture and disagreement regarding where the line of fact and fiction falls, but when Willow & Giles speak about the Earth being connected, Gaia Theory is to what they are referring.
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Covering the Bases
PLOT OUTLINE for "Lessons"
(red lines particularly need fleshing out)
Istanbul girl is captured by guy in
robe.
Buffy coaches Dawn in vamp-slayage.
Giles and Willow chat in England.
Xander explains new school to Dawn & Buffy.
Xander takes Dawn & Buffy to school.
Buffy & Dawn meet the new principal.
Buffy sees dead people, runs into Dawn's class.
Halfrek accuses Anya of going soft.
Buffy fetches Xander.
Dawn sees dead people, goes to bathroom and meets Kit.
Dawn & Kit fall through floor.
Willow senses evil.
Buffy runs into Principal Wood again.
Kit & Dawn meet Carlos, and more dead people.
Dawn calls Buffy. "It's a weapon."
Buffy fights dead people.
Buffy finds Spike instead of Dawn.
Spike babbles.
Dawn calls.
Buffy saves the day, w/ help from Xander.
Principal Wood offers Buffy a job.
Mysterious Morphing Evil Thing taunts Spike.
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Re: ATPoBtVS "LESSONS" annotations -- Arethusa, 14:05:25 10/17/02 Thu
"Nietzsche did not believe the human soul was innately morally good or bad. He saw a distinct difference between absolute good & bad versus moral good & bad. One was actualized through the physical laws of the universe and involved power, control, positive attitude, physical strength, passion, creativity, etc. Actual morality was a man-made construct in Nietzsche's point of view, which sometimes went against the grain of actual good & bad.
So, when Joss Whedon puts into the mouths of his characters phrases like "it's not about right or wrong but about power" he's taking the Nietzschean point of view. None of the Big Bads in the history of Buffy were innately evil. Even The Master had his goodness, from an absolutist point of view. The struggle in Sunnydale is not about who is morally right, but who is ultimately going to win the battle. Might makes right. "
I can't agree, and if I weren't so abysmally ignorant about Nietzsche, I would clearly and learnedly explain why. But all I have to go on is Whedon's body of work, which cumulatively makes me say Whedon's no follower of Nietzsche. He's immensely concerned with right and wrong and good and evil, and not in just an abstract way, or only as ways of gaining power. And I would say that by denying his monsters a soul, Whedon is saying that they are innately evil-which is why Spike's actions have created so much confusion in both the Buffyverse and Realverse. Buffy and the Scoobies are presented as good, if flawed, humans, and the monsters are presented as evil. The monsters might not always be actively bad, but they are always potentially dangerous (even if it's just to kittens). The struggle over Sunnydale is a fight to the death over the right to murder and pillage at will, as the demon bikers briefly managed to do, or live in relative safety and peace, protected by the ones chosen by The Powers That Be to maintain the balance between good and evil. Might doesn't make right-Wolfram and Hart are mighty and powerful, but Whedon clearly presents them as evil, and not admirable in either their ethics or means of gaining power, or even their desire to have power. He shows the desire for power corrupts repeatedly, especially in "Blood Money" and Lindsey's story arc. Nietzsche rejects the moral definition of good and evil, but I don't think Whedon does.
Sorry for the less than learned response. Now you see why I didn't respond to Frisby! "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing..."
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Re: ATPoBtVS "LESSONS" annotations -- ZachsMind, 15:13:47 10/17/02 Thu
"He's immensely concerned with right and wrong and good and evil, and not in just an abstract way, or only as ways of gaining power."
Have you read ATPoBtVS? I can't imagine we're seeing the same tv series here. No offense meant, but Buffy is ripe with Moral Ambiguities. One parable after another about how moral absolutes simply do not apply in the Buffy universe.
* Willow kills Warren yet goes unpunished, and her rehabilitation is left unfinished. Faith killed the mayor's assistant, and was fully prosecuted for her crime. Where's the moral consistency?
* Angel being the first known vampire with a soul, so something evil is inherently good.
* Willow does the right thing, as Tara requested, and turns her back on magic. She is rewarded with Tara's death.
* Buffy loves Angel, yet to protect the world from what Angeles had done, is forced to choose the fate of the world over her lover, and casts him into a hell dimension for 100 years in order to close the portal.
* Adam seeks not to destroy humanity or vampirity, but to mold both into his image, which he believes to be ultimate perfection. His goal is lofty and arguably even noble, but his methods and results are far from noble.
* Buffy committed the ultimate sacrificed, jumping into the dimensional rift to save her daughter and the entire world. Willow brings her back from the dead using dark magicks that rip Buffy not from hell but from heaven. Did Willow do the right thing? For the world? For Buffy?
Whedon perpetually plays with good & evil not as absolutes but as theoretical concepts to be challenged. In season seven he's taking the next logical step, admitting that Buffy's never been about the black & white moral good & evil as described by modern Christianity, but that it has been and always has been about POWER. CONTROL.
"I would say that by denying his monsters a soul, Whedon is saying that they are innately evil..."
Does Anya have a soul now as a "Justice Demon"? Did she have a soul when she was a human, or when she first became a Vengeance Demon? How about before the troll guy betrayed her? Before she became a scorned woman, did she have a soul then?
Warren had a soul. Was he squeaky clean lemony fresh soul goodness? Not at all.
Clem's only crime is loving the taste of kittens. Otherwise he's been a complete gentleman. Yet he's a demon. Does that mean he's evil? Does that mean he's good?
Josh Whedon never denies any character his soul. It is always a choice the character made somewhere down the line. Oftentimes they didn't understand the ramifications of those choices, like when Dru turned Spike, but he chose to accept his fate all the same. He could have said no. He did not. He lost his soul willingly. Then hundreds of years later, he sought his soul willingly.
"Might doesn't make right-Wolfram and Hart are mighty and powerful, but Whedon clearly presents them as evil, and not admirable in either their ethics or means of gaining power..."
Wesley is bedding with the enemy. He kidnapped Angel's son thinking he was doing the right thing, but the ramifications of his actions caused no end of despair for his friends. He held Justine hostage like an animal for weeks, because he felt torturing her would lead to a greater purpose, that of finding and securing Angel's freedom from the depths of the ocean.
Is Justine's right to freedom less relevant than Angel's? Because she's a mean lady and he's a good vampire?
Where's Whedon's moral certainties here? The entire website ATPoBtVS illustrates Whedon's exploration of moral ambiguity, yet you're claiming he's saying exactly the opposite? Mayhaps you're overlaying your own belief structure over the series, and seeing what you want to see, but bubbling under the surface of this series is something much more complicated.
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Re: ATPoBtVS "LESSONS" annotations -- Arethusa, 17:30:28 10/17/02 Thu
"Have you read ATPoBtVS? I can't imagine we're seeing the same tv series here. No offense meant, but Buffy is ripe with Moral Ambiguities. One parable after another about how moral absolutes simply do not apply in the Buffy universe. "
I didn't say Whedon's morality wasn't ambiguous-I said it wasn't Nietzschean. And I rarely take offense.
"Whedon perpetually plays with good & evil not as absolutes but as theoretical concepts to be challenged. In season seven he's taking the next logical step, admitting that Buffy's never been about the black & white moral good & evil as described by modern Christianity, but that it has been and always has been about POWER. CONTROL. "
I don't think he's challenging the concept of good and evil at all. I think he clearly states good and evil exists, and morality matters. Whedon, like Nietzsche, isn't a Christian, but he doesn't reject the notion of moral good and evil. I don't think the next logical step, after rejecting Christianity, is to reject the concept of right and wrong, and seek power, even ennobling power. (And I don't believe power ennobles, either. For every Annenburg there's a hundred Trumps.) There are many kinds of power, as was discussed in the Nietzsche thread and others at the same time.
Whedon on the soul: (18th Paley Television Festival)
Audience Member: "I'd like to know what your definition of a soul is? And what distinguishes Angel from the other vampires, because it becomes clear from both Buffy and Angel that vampires have human emotions and human attachments. So is that a conscience? And then what separates vampires from humans if it is a conscience?"
JW: "Um, very little. (laugh) Essentially, souls are by their nature amorphous but to me it's really about what star you are guided by. Most people, we hope, are guided by, 'you should be good, you're good, you feel good.' And most demons are guided simply by the opposite star. They believe in evil, they believe in causing it, they like it. They believe it in the way that people believe in good. So they can love someone, they can attach to someone, they can actually want to do things that will make that person happy in the way they know they would. The way Spike has sort of become, an example is Spike obviously on Buffy, is getting more and more completely conflicted. But basically his natural bent is towards doing the wrong thing. His court's creating chaos where as in most humans, most humans, is the opposite, and that's really how I see it. I believe it's kind of like a spectrum, but they are setting their course by opposite directions. But they're all sort of somewhere in the middle."
The monsters are innately evil-they, by their nature, gravitate to evil and chaos. Some less so, so more so. Same with humans, accordig to Whedon. Some are more good, some less, but they innately gravitate towards good. As you say, some reject their soul, but they still have it. And demons don't.
"Wesley is bedding with the enemy. He kidnapped Angel's son thinking he was doing the right thing, but the ramifications of his actions caused no end of despair for his friends. He held Justine hostage like an animal for weeks, because he felt torturing her would lead to a greater purpose, that of finding and securing Angel's freedom from the depths of the ocean.
Is Justine's right to freedom less relevant than Angel's? Because she's a mean lady and he's a good vampire? "
I wasn't discussing Wesley's wrongdoing, or Justine's imprisionment. I said W&H is an example of Whedon's views on power-and they're not all positive.
My own belief structure is extremely close to Whedon's, as far as I can tell from reading interviews; I'm an existentialist, and an atheist, although more cranky than angry. While I'm not always able to understand all the complexities of the Whedonverse without assistance from others, I really do realize that it is complex. And once again, I didn't say there are no moral ambiguities in the Whedonverse; I said Whedon isn't Nietzschean.
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Whedon may not be Nietzchean... -- ZachsMind, 19:35:04 10/17/02 Thu
Whedon may not be Nietzchean, but I think he made it clear with that speech in the season seven opener that he's created a character, which is presently haunting Spike, that IS Nietzchean.
There is moral good & evil, but according to Nietzche, there's also an absolute good & evil that is separate from how human beings perceive good & evil. Nietzche didn't dismiss morality. He said sometimes it doesn't coincide with how good & evil actually objectively work.
One can acknowledge Judeo-Christian views of morality without agreeing with them.
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I agree with you about the basement creature. -- Arethusa, 19:57:22 10/17/02 Thu
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It's all connected -- Pamela, 13:38:05 10/18/02 Fri
Remember the scene in Lessons where Willow & Giles are discussing about the difference between dabbling in the occult and have the magic within? One statement from Willow is her recognition that it's all connected. So perhaps we'll see how the dark & the light are connected...how through the course of this physical dimension it split into 2 seemingly separate powers.
After all...is electricity good or evil? It has the power to light a city or keep an engine running...it has the power to stop a beating heart or burn down a forest!
I have no idea where Joss may be leading us with this...but like you, I'm along for the wild ride.
I've wondered if we might have been simply peering into a review and confirmation that any lesson not learned is one destined to be repeated. Spike's hallucination may not be of an actual morphing creature but of an unlearned lesson (whether it's his lesson or Buffy's lesson or Sunnydale's lesson...who knows) Again...to quote the last line in this episode "It's about power" (just like electricity)
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In a debate -- Sophist, 19:55:41 10/17/02 Thu
a little courtesy goes a long way.
I continue to think it possible to make points passionately without digs at the opponent. Comments such as:
Have you read ATPoBtVS? I can't imagine we're seeing the same tv series here.
and
Mayhaps you're overlaying your own belief structure over the series, and seeing what you want to see
and
multiple rhetorical questions
don't add to the logical structure of an argument, but they do contribute to raising the temperature.
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Re: In a debate -- ZachsMind, 21:05:51 10/17/02 Thu
What you call incendiary, I call flavor. I wasn't calling anyone names or being juvenile. I was acknowledging that my perception of an episode, and someone else's perception, and therefore interpretation, of the same episode, is going to differ.
If someone watches Buffy assuming that good & evil are black & white, their perception of the show is going to dramatically differ from my perception, because I'm seek out and am fascinated by instances when Whedon's blurring the lines. I may see such blurrings where Whedon did not intend, because my perception veers in that opposing direction.
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Notice: just Zach's approximations -- Vickie, 16:30:45 10/17/02 Thu
Zach, we usually wait for Masquerade to decide what goes on her site. ;-)
She does include comments and quotes from the board when she finds them appropriate. But AtPoBtVs (&AtS) is her baby.
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Thought I made that clear... -- ZachsMind, 17:09:57 10/17/02 Thu
I wasn't attempting to write her page for her. Was just offering my take on the episode in the format that ATPoVtVS uses for simplicity's sake. Thought conversation about the episode would ensue, as opposed to accusations.
I quote from the first paragraph of the original message:
"This will probably not be what the final result looks like at all. ...PLEASE feel free to add, edit, critique, reflect, or do anything to the following by replying to this thread."
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Re: ATPoBtVS "LESSONS" annotations -- Grant, 21:39:35 10/17/02 Thu
There was once an A+ student in a moral philosophy class who wrote a term paper titled "There Is No Such Thing as Justice." He put a great deal of effort into it, so he was very surprised when he got the paper back and found that the professor had given it a failing grade without writing a single comment. After class, the student went to the professor and said, "Professor, I worked extremely hard on that paper and I thought it was quite good." "Quite so," the professor interrupted. "In fact, it was probably the best term paper I have read in thirty years of teaching this class. Your arguments were cogent and lucid, your writing was brilliant, and your withering attack on all legal, moral, and religious orthodoxies concerning justice was profound. Indeed, your paper was so good that you persuaded me that there is no such thing as justice. So don't complain."
The moral of the story is to be careful about arguing that there are no objective standards of things like good, evil, and justice, because you will quickly find that you are destroying your own argument as well. Because once you make the claim that there is no good or no bad, there no longer is any point in arguing. We might as well all stop arguing and go home, and if we ever have a disagreement we will settle it based on who has the bigger stick.
That is why I know that the "struggle in Sunnydale" is not just about "who is ultimately going to win the battle." If it were, none of us would be here. We would have no reason to. The show would have nothing to teach us about right and wrong, because there would be no right and wrong. There would be no discussion of whether Spike could be redeemed or not, either, because the entire concept of redemption is probably just some made up thing to help protect those in power. BtVS would be no more intellectually significant than a baseball game or WWF Monday Night Smackdown (or is the WWE and on a different night now?). In all cases, the only significance is in who wins in the end, not how they win or why they are even playing in the first place.
I think that the main problem with your arguement, Zachsmind, is that you mistake the presence of moral ambiguities and the challenging of traditional moral orthodoxies as a statement that there is no morality. This is not the case. If anything, the presence of these moral ambiguities confirms that the writers are very concerned with right and wrong. Otherwise, everything would simply be a clear-cut case where the presiding moral beliefs are shown to only be the interest of the strong. Instead, they give us situations where the challenge is to figure out what is right and what is wrong. The show provides most of the answers, leaves some up to us, but in all cases we can disagree with the direction the writers appears to be taking us and form our own conclusion. We are never, however, supposed to just say that the question is worthless because there is no right and wrong. In other words, blurring the lines between good and evil does not necessarily mean that there is no line between good and evil. It just means that we might not know exactly where that line is. Which is why we have shows like BtVS to raise the question and sites like this one to try and answer it.
I would also like to caution against taking a quote from a character and assuming that that is the writer talking to us. In the occasional rare circumstance it may be the case, but it is almost always impossible to tell. And you can often end up mistaking something that a character is proposing precisely because he is that character to some sort of universal truth that the writer is telling the audience. My favorite example of this is when people say, "Shakespeare says, 'And this above all, to thine own self be true'" (hey, I'm contractually obligated to have at least one Shakespeare quote or reference in every post). Actually, Shakespeare didn't say this, Polonius did. And Polonius is shown to be something of a fool in the play, so it might not be the best idea to follow his advice. On the same token, Joss Whedon did not say, "It's about power." Some shape-shifting entity that is either a manifestation of Spike's insanity or a major big bad did. So I'm not sure how much we can assume "It's about power" is the guiding theme of the show.
Another important factor is that in Spike's current emotional state, it would be very easy for him to just say, "Screw right and wrong, I'm going to do whatever is good for me." Thus the statement that it is not about right or wrong, it is just about power, seems to be more a challenge, issued to Spike in specific and the audience in general. Do we hold ourselves to our moral values even when it causes us a great deal of pain? Even when we can easily reject these moral standards and do what benefits us the most? This is a question that we all often face in our everyday lives, whenever we must choose whether to follow a moral guideline even though it would seem to be in our complete benefit to go against that guideline. And thus it is going to be very interesting to watch Spike, and most likely the other characters as well, face this question on a much larger scale, where the stakes might be the very survival of the world.
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Grant, as always, you rock! -- ponygirl, 12:39:59 10/18/02 Fri
My analysis of "Lessons" is up -- Masquerade, 16:35:20 10/17/02 Thu
Here. "Deep Down" is next!
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Yay! Thanks, Masq. -- Vickie, 16:51:21 10/17/02 Thu
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Yipee! -- Deeva, 16:54:27 10/17/02 Thu
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Is this right? -- Harry Parachute, 17:08:52 10/17/02 Thu
At the end of the Beyond Good and Evil section:
"Even before he got his soul back, Spike had rudimentary concepts of 'good' and 'evil'. 'Good' could be identified with 'those actions Buffy approves of' or 'those actions that set the chip off' and 'bad' as "those actions Buffy doesn't approve of' or 'those actions that don't set the chip off'."
Supposed to be vice versa with chip activation, yeah?
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Nope -- oboemaboe, 17:24:24 10/17/02 Thu
I know you said rudimentary, but it's silly to equate good with "those actions that don't set the chip off." There are more ways to harm someone than to physically punch them.
Tricking the Scoobies on behalf of Adam didn't set the chip off. Neither did telling X & G that he would give Faith their location and watch as she killed them. Spike almost got the Initiative doc to remove his chip, and he could easily have revealed Dawn to Glory. These actions wouldn't activate the chip either, but I'm pretty sure Buffy wouldn't approve of them and they should be called bad.
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Here's how the chip works... -- ZachsMind, 19:23:34 10/17/02 Thu
If Spike causes direct physical harm to any human, the chip sends a powerful jolt to his central nervous system, registering as a brief but potent migraine. He's able to hit other vampires and demons without a peep from the chip, provided he KNOWS his target is not human.
The chip doesn't work when he punches Buffy. Tara said it was because Buffy came back with a very slight change to her. Something inconsequential but it's there. However, the chip doesn't work on a genetic level. I mean, it doesn't 'read' the victim. It doesn't know. It uses Spike's brain to think with. In Spike's mind, Buffy's different. She's died and come back to life, so as far as he's concerned, at least on an unconscious level, she's not truly human.
It should be noted from the last episode that now that he's got a soul, he's learning to conquer the pain. Prior to this season, Spike would be momentarily incapacitated after punching someone. However, he punched that Home Improvement guy three or four times, taking the pain from the chip every time.
He's adapting.
Another interesting thing to note, the chip precludes him from being able to kill himself. Even though Spike is not human, the chip also restricts his ability to harm himself. This adds impact to his noticeable attempts to cut his own heart out of his chest. He was getting shocks from the chip as he attempted to do that. Remember back in season four, Spike attempted to kill himself by falling on a wooden stake. This was because he couldn't stake himself directly. The chip prevented it, so the only way that would work is if the THOUGHT of killing himself is what triggers it. Also, just AIMING A GUN at a human causes his chip to trigger. NOT pulling the trigger, but AIMING it. As was evident in that same episode. However, the chip does not fire if the pain he's inflicting is non-physical. Strategically tricking someone into hurting themselves or someone else? The chip doesn't register that. It only registers physical damage to human beings as behavior to modify.
So. It's not the ACTION that triggers the chip, but the THOUGHT that delivers the action. In other words, the chip starts firing AS Spike rears his fist back to punch someone. As he punches someone, he feels a near equivalent pain to his head simultaneously, and reacts immediately after the punch connects with his victim.
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The chip knows better than Spike does. -- oboemaboe, 19:51:16 10/17/02 Thu
If only the thought mattered, Spike's test of Tara in Family would be meaningless, since it only demonstrates that he thought she was human. The chip must "read" the target in some way, since it can identify humans/non-humans when Spike can't.
In Smashed, he attacks two muggers and is surprised to have his chip activated because he thought they were demons. Then when he punches Buffy, he expects to feel the pain, and is suprised when he doesn't. It's not that "In Spike's
mind, Buffy's different." He didn't think that until after he learned he could hit her.
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Re: The chip knows better than Spike does. -- Apophis, 20:08:33 10/17/02 Thu
On Tara in Family: People take in a great deal of sensory information that doesn't reach our conscious minds, but is utilized subconsciously. As we've seen, vampires have a highly developed sense of smell. Spike "knew" that Tara was human on a subconscious level, because he could smell the difference between demon and human (much as Angel can). Yet, he wasn't consciously aware of this, as it was simply background information, like what the walls smell like. So, when he hit Tara in the nose, the chip, being connected directly to his brain, registered him hitting a human despite the fact that he wasn't 100% certain he was.
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That's still the chip deciding. -- oboemaboe, 20:23:28 10/17/02 Thu
Since the chip makes decisions that surpise Spike. Registering Spike's subconscious sensory perceptions could be how it reads the targets.
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Re: That's still the chip deciding. -- Apophis, 21:01:01 10/17/02 Thu
Spike read the target (Tara) with his senses. He made the decision to strike the target, not being consciously aware of the target's status, but aware nontheless. The chip registered his intention to harm a human by being linked to the sensory centers of his brain and reacted as it had been programmed.
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Well actually... -- ZachsMind, 20:58:41 10/17/02 Thu
The "Spike Test" was sufficient enough for everyone in the room, but it still doesn't prove the chip's reading anyone other than Spike. It just meant Spike believed in his heart that Tara was human. And admittedly, Spike's a good judge because being a vampire he can 'read' people pretty well, but he's not flawless. I still think they're gonna bring Amber Benson back into the show, somehow. It may be a character using the undead body of Tara, but Tara as we know her will be gone. Her family may have been at least partially accurate in saying their females became demon. We don't have enough knowledge to assume that her family were completely stupid and chauvinistic. That's obviously what Whedon wanted us to believe, but I don't take anything in the Buffy universe at face value. They got that assumption somehow. Tara knew her own mother, and if her own mother were not a demon, of if she'd never seen other female family members becoming demon, then there would have been no reason for Tara to believe her family's assumptions.
The Initiative was not capable of creating a chip that could read outside the person it's in, because if they had that kinda ability, they'd have included that in the chips they put in Riley and other soldiers, so they could do their jobs better, but Riley was no better at reading what's human and what's demon than say, Xander.
In Smashed, Spike was attacking two individuals whose status was unknown, and Spike was assuming they were demon but he can't lie to the chip. He can't look at a human and think, "this is a demon I will be able to hit it." The chip may be configured so that if there's no certainty whether a target is human or demon, it errs on the side of zapping Spike anyway. And as for Buffy, I explained that before. He knows she died. He saw her fall. He knows she came back, and in his mind that means undead. It means something other than human.
When Warren investigated Spike's chip, he said nothing about it being able to read outside Spike's head. He mentioned a signal, but that's referring to the signal between the chip and Spike's actual brain. If it was broadcasting or somehow able to read HIM, I think Warren would have noticed that. He's a loser, but he's a smart loser.
So we may just have to agree to disagree. I've seen no proof yet that the chip is somehow scanning all beings around Spike, outside usage of Spike's own sensory perception.
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Re: We only have Spike's claims that the chip still works -- Pamela, 11:40:20 10/18/02 Fri
Now maybe the chip works and maybe it doesn't. One thing that the chip has served as for Spike's change, is exposing him to consequences for negative behavior. It's sort of been his conscience.
On several occasions Spike has attributed his unhappiness with how his life has changed to the chip. He's also claimed that he has truly changed (even before his trip to Africa).
The chip in Spike is the human equal of psychotropic medication given to patients with emotional/mental problems, until the therapy or time has a chance to heal them. (i.e., a person suffering from lengthy depression after loss of a loved one may be on prozac until they have the time and councelling to heal.) Sorry I digressed there a little.
But we have seen that Spike truly has changed. Even before Buffy's return in season 6, we heard of how he cared about the Summers' women...and that he assisted the Scoobie gang after Buffy's death.
We were led to believe that Spike was going to Africa to get his chip removed. Again, maybe it works....maybe it doesn't. Maybe it's his developed conscience (and of course his current mental state) that has kicked in with a placebo effect.
And maybe, just maybe...that's why he could get physical w/ Buffy last year after all....because there was NO intent to hurt her. And therefore his conscience never kicked in the placebo of the chip (but of course after the incident where Buffy believed he was attempting to rape her...no kick in of the chip...but of course Spike could blame the cause of all his problems on the chip).
Just a thought...I'm sure we'll all find out the truth eventually!
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Being Presumptive with Whedon's World.. -- ZachsMind, 15:22:18 10/18/02 Fri
It's one thing to speculate that Spike's behaving now as if the chip was still there when it's really not, and quite another thing to stick with what is revealed to us. Perhaps Spike is acting in some sort of combination between the Pavlovian dog effect and the placebo effect. He thinks it's still there so feels pain when really he shouldn't, because he's expecting it. However unbeknownst to us the chip may have fried at the moment the demon put Spike's soul back into his body.
This is possible. Not probable.
Whedon's given us no indication that the chip has malfunctioned or ceased to function. I for one was mildly surprised to see this new souled Spike going around screaming every time he punches a human. If Whedon wanted us to believe the chip no longer matters, that would have been the moment to show it. Spike woulda punched somebody human, looked at his fist and gone, "COOL!" Then Xander would be running all over the place for a few episodes, being chased by a stir-crazy Spikey who's been subjected to one too many putdowns.
It's still in there. Whedon's making it very clear by dramatic action that the chip is working perfectly. This has not changed. We're given no clues to believe otherwise. Not a hint.
And those who are suspicious of Whedon's every move can choose to believe Spike's just either drooling at the sound of a bell, or tricking everyone into thinking he's in worse shape than he is, but from my experience, observing and attempting to predict the show's development, that would be very unlike Whedon to go in that direction.
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. =)
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Most excellent. Eagerly anticipating the next one. -- Arethusa, 17:44:09 10/17/02 Thu
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Glad to See You've Started Again, Masq -- Finn Mac Cool, 20:10:31 10/17/02 Thu
Your "Lessons" analysis didn't really blow me away, but I often have that feeling when I read an analysis/summary/review too soon after seeing the episode. It's hard to compare with the actual episode. I'll look back on it in a few weeks and probably love it.
Hope you get "Deep Down" posted soon, and I'm looking forward to your further analysis of all things Buffy and Angel.
P.S. Is it frustrating trying to write these things when a great deal is being left unexplained?
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And an excellent one it is, too! Many thanks! -- vh, 12:14:14 10/18/02 Fri
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Omigod! You quoted me! -- Sarand, 12:34:40 10/18/02 Fri
I've died and gone to heaven. Thanks! :)
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I felt that way when I first entered the annals of Masq's quotage. It's a great feeling! Congrats! -- Rob, 12:53:43 10/18/02 Fri
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If we resurrect you -- Sophist, 13:06:00 10/18/02 Fri
do you promise not to sleep with Spike?
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You're kidding, right? -- Sarand, 15:12:37 10/18/02 Fri
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Re: You're kidding, right? -- Sophist, 16:13:59 10/18/02 Fri
Well, I thought I was. I guess a joke in my mouth is no laughing matter.
The Buffy Season 7 "Things To Show List" (Spoilers through 7.4 and Angel Season 3) -- Just George, 19:10:11 10/17/02 Thu
At the beginning of Season 7, the writers at Mutant Enemy (ME) had a bunch of plot points and character relationships to develop before they could get on with the big bad plot arc for the season. Since ME tries to use "show not tell" I came up with a guestimate for some of the things on ME's Buffy Season 7 "Things To Show the Audience" list.
During Episode 1, the writers had to show that:
A major evil plot is in progress (killing the girls)
Buffy has recovered from her S6 depression
Buffy has established a new relationship with Dawn (mentor)
Willow is getting better in England
Xander has a new job
Dawn has new friends outside the Scoobies
Dawn is in High School
Dawn will not be popular in High School
Spike is back, and living under the High School
Spike is crazy, has multiple personalities, and is hearing voices
The underworld is nervous about the big bad ("this is a bad time to be a good guy")
There is a new big bad (shape shifter)
During Episode 2, the writers had to show that:
Anya is operating as a Vengeance Demon
Dawn is establishing a new relationship with Spike (enemy)
The Scoobies are nervous about the big bad ("from beneath you it devours")
Willow is coming home
Spike feels guilty for what he did
Buffy learns about Spike's soul
Spike wants to be forgiven and loved
During Episode 3, the writers had to show that:
Anya's has a new living arrangement
Anya's has mixed feelings about vengeance
Dawn is a credible Scooby
Willow is establishing the current state of her magic powers
Willow is establishing a new relationship with Buffy (friend)
During Episode 4, the writers had to show that:
Buffy has a new job (High School councilor)
Willow is establishing a new relationship with Xander (friend)
Willow is grieving for Tara
Buffy will go on and help even in the face of loss or failure
Perhaps part of the reason 7.3 and 7.4 didn't satisfy some audience members as much as 7.1 and 7.2 may have been because there were fewer things checked off the "Things to show" list.
Before the big bad plot gets into high gear, the writers still have to show the audience that:
All the Scoobies have learned about Spike's soul
All the Scoobies grieve for Tara
Willow is establishing a new relationship with Dawn (enemy/friend, whatever)
Xander is establishing a new relationship with Anya (enemy/friend/lover, whatever)
Anya is establishing a new relationship with the other Scoobies (enemies/friends, whatever)
Buffy is establishing a new relationship with Spike (enemy/friend/lover, whatever)
Spike is establishing a new relationship with the other Scoobies (enemies/friends, whatever)
What are some events that you think might also be on ME's "Things To Show The Audience" list?
In terms of how the season has been organized, I believe that some events had to happen in a certain order to preserve dramatic structure:
Much as we would like to see all the Scoobies grieve for Tara, Willow had to be the one that got to grieve onscreen first.
Giles had to take Willow away so that he could help stabilize her powers.
Buffy had to be the one to find crazy Spike in the basement of the High School.
Buffy had to be the first one Spike told about his soul.
Xander had to be the one to talk Anya into reversing the spell
Willow had to be away in England to give Dawn a chance to establish herself as a credible Scooby.
Buffy had to be the first one to forgive Willow.
And so on...
Also, some of these events had pre-requisites. For example, Willow had to be away to stabilize her powers, then had to come back before Buffy could forgive her. It makes sense that this would take 2-3 episodes.
However the "still to show" tasks are the ones that drive us (the fans) crazy. We want to know NOW. Almost all of these tasks are about establishing semi-stable new relationships among the characters after the events of Season 6.
I think the least dramatic relationships are being established first (Buffy/Dawn, Dawn/Spike, Buffy/Willow). There was little question in my mind that Buffy would mentor Dawn, or that Dawn would blame Spike, or that Buffy would forgive Willow. But the writers had to get these relationship questions settled before the show could deal with the bigger question mark relationships (Willow/Dawn, Anya/Xander, and especially Buffy/Spike). I also think you can only establish one or two of these relationships per episode so that each can assume its rightful importance.
I think history shows that ME works out relationships during confrontations. While I would love to have hints dropped about how W/D, A/X, and B/S will come out, ME keeps them ambiguous on purpose. I think ME is intentionally giving us mixed signals about how these relationships will come out to maintain our suspense until the inevitable confrontations occur.
The most dramatic relationships still to be determined is between Buffy and Spike. Therefore, dramatically it will be left till last. Much as we would all like to see a new relationship established, I'll bet it will not happen until everyone else's relationships have gone through a first round of establishment and stabilization.
In some ways it's too bad, two little lines by Buffy about Spike (one each in STSP and Help) could have given us a preview of how she was going to handle the big confrontation when it comes. But, if she had shown a bit more sympathy in each episode (say, asking Spike if he was alright after the church and expressing sorrow for his pain after he hit himself) then we would expect Buffy to forgive Spike when the time comes. If she showed sympathy before hand and then forgave him, the confrontation would not be dramatic. Since Buffy is not expressing much sympathy, ME is preserving the option of Buffy dramatically forgiving Spike when things come to a head. Or ME might have Buffy tell Spike to shove it. But I don't expect that; after STSP and Help, that wouldn't be dramatic either.
Notice the structural parallel to how ME handled Angel's confrontation with Wesley after Conner was taken. Angel comes in to Wesley's hospital room, talking calmly and saying how he understands Wesley's concerns about the prophecy. He makes sure Wesley knows this is Angel talking, not Angelus. Then Angel goes off the deep end and tries to strangle Wesley with a pillow. The scene (and subsequent Wesley alone sub-plot) would not have been as dramatic if Angel had come in ranting from the beginning. Angel was calm in the beginning so his rant could be dramatic. I think Buffy is being cold now so that her forgiveness will be dramatic.
Unfortunately, this kind of plot driven writing has problems. It forces the viewers to wait for confrontations to get closure. The waiting time is excruciating. Also, it sometimes feels like the writers are making the players act "out of character" in order to "save up" for the big confrontation. Why didn't anyone else mention Tara for 3 episodes? So Willow could lay stones on her grave in episode 4. Dramatic? Yes. Out of character? A bit. Why hasn't Buffy talked things out with Spike? Because the writers are waiting for a big confrontation to bring emotions into sharp relief. Dramatic? I hope so. Out of character? A bit.
Given the previews for 7.5, I expect that some progress will be made regarding Anya's relationships next week. Willow and Dawn's confrontation could happen at any time. However, I expect to have to wait until November to see how Buffy and Spike settle out.
Sigh.
-JG
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Re: The Buffy Season 7 "Things To Show List" (Spoilers through 7.4 and Angel Season 3) -- JM, 19:29:17 10/17/02 Thu
Really, nice and concise un-story boarding. I think you have a point. Things I would like to see are general mourning for Tara among the Scoobies. But continuing subtle as a part of their daily lives. I would also like see the other Scoobs learn about Spike's soul and have their own interactions with him. Perhaps their own very different judgements.
I would also like to see other people than Xander form friendships with Anya. She would really benefit from a genuine friendship with Dawn, Buffy, and/or Willow.
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Re: The Buffy Season 7 "Things To Show List" (Spoilers through 7.4 and Angel Season 3) & Speculation -- Just George, 19:54:10 10/17/02 Thu
My hope is that once the "primary confrontations" (such as Xander/Anya, Buffy/Spike) are handled, the rest of the cast can have interesting interactions. The Anya/Willow interactions in STSP could be a harbinger of good things. I also think Willow and Dawn mourning Tara together could be an important part of their ultimately reconciliation.
-JG
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Great post. These are surely the factors that control the pacing. -- Indri, 21:27:13 10/17/02 Thu
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Re: The Buffy Season 7 "Things To Show List" (Spoilers through 7.4 and Angel Season 3) -- Darby, 04:57:15 10/18/02 Fri
Nice list. I would add, even though from previews it seems inevitable, that Anya's demonness had to be addressed fairly early - the character is too much of a deus ex machina to keep around while building a credible threat.
I also expect some hints, possibly misleading, about the status of the principal before events that he could affect really get rolling.
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Re: The Buffy Season 7 "Things To Show List" (Spoilers through 7.4 and Angel Season 3) -- Just George, 11:19:16 10/18/02 Fri
I agree, Anya's reigning in Anya's demon wish powers is necessary to create drama. The principals need to have rules that the audience understands to create dramatic tension. Only after the rules are established can you break them dramatically.
Right now, Anya's powers, used creatively, should be able to solve almost any problem. Cassie is threatened by a man? Why have Buffy beat him up? Have Anya turn him into a toad. I think being kidnapped counts as being "wronged". Anya's wish powers will have to be narrowly defined or made to go away before they become the all purpose solution to all Scooby problems.
Willow's magic is in the same category. It has to be narrowly defined to create dramatic tension. In STSP, the "Take the power from my enemy..." spell sounds pretty broad. A spell like that, taken literally, could potentially defeat anything that isn't immune to magic (as Gnarl conveniently was). Before S6 we didn't know exactly what Willow could do to. Now we know, and we need to be told why she doesn't wrinkle her nose like Samantha Stevens and make the bad guys go "poof".
-JG
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Just one tiny point regarding mourning Tara... -- Rob, 10:48:19 10/18/02 Fri
It's possible that there won't be much more acknowledgment of Tara's death in the SG being shown, because, in most likelihood, the SG mourned Tara over the summer, visited her grave, etc...and thus perhaps they are not going to show them acknowledging her death on the show. Remember, there were a whole three months where one of their best friends was away, caused by the death of another. I'm sure, in Willow's absence, that they had a lot of grief to deal with over the 3 or 4 months between "Grave" and "Lessons."
Rob
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Re: Just one tiny point regarding mourning Tara... -- Just George, 11:27:23 10/18/02 Fri
I suppose you are right that the SG doesn't have to mourn Tara. Dramatically Willow certainly had to mourn, and now she has done so on-screen.
It just would be nice for Tara to be acknowledged by the SG. Even in a joyous way such as when the gang is at a pretty place or a party when someone could say, "Tara would have liked this."
-JG
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Re: Just one tiny point regarding mourning Tara... -- Rob, 12:00:01 10/18/02 Fri
I agree that it would be nice if they would. I'm just not sure that they necessarily will.
In a way, the timing of Tara's death was unfortunate, and yet also necessary, IMO. The way she died and how all the chaos Willow caused immediately following, left the SG little time to mourn, because they were too busy fighting Willow. Although I found all of their reactions in "Villains" very touching, most particularly Dawn's, there was no time to dwell on their mourning. And yet I don't see any other way this could have been done, because the whole point was that Willow's turning dark was a rash, quick, not thought-out decison. If it had been, she probably wouldn't have done it!
The only suggestion I might have had would have been to have ended the season with a scene at Tara's grave. Buffy, Willow, and Xander could have stood by the grave, with Sarah McLachlan playing in the background. And then switch over to Spike getting his soul. Of course, ME wanted to stress the dawning of a new day, after Buffy finally committed to life, and Willow was defeated, etc. so going back to the death may have brought down the very "up" feeling they were going for.
Rob
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Also: that scene in 'Grave', somewhat OT -- Tchaikovsky, 04:33:45 10/19/02 Sat
Did anyone notice that Sarah McLachlan's Prayer of St Francis was evilly hijacked at the end? With classic Mutant Enemy wit, the line
'In dying that we are born to eternal life' happenned at the same time as the cut to Spike, the vampire who was 'born to eternal life' by Drusilla over a hundred years ago?. I'm pretty sure that's not the way St Francis wrote it, or the Fransiscans read it! But it was a funny little aside
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Re: Mourning Tara...Tara vs. Cassie -- wiscoboy, 13:57:21 10/18/02 Fri
I looked at the grieving of Cassie to be parallel to that of Tara. The comment made by Buffy not doing enough to save Cassie followed by Dawn's assertion that it wasn't her fault, that 'sometimes trying is all you can do" was an affirmation and conciliation to Tara's senseless death. It was noticed here that it was then Willow made the trek to Tara's grave.
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Re: Just one tiny point regarding mourning Tara... -- TheOneWithTheAngelicFace, 11:05:39 10/19/02 Sat
This might seem harsh, but I never really got the sense of an intimate friendship between Buffy and Tara. I wasn't convinced that Buffy included Tara as part of her close circle. One may cite the time in "The Body" when they were alone and Tara explained her mother's death, but then Buffy apologizes to Tara for having to deal with this, and that strikes me as saying "you're not really close to all of us, so I am sorry to drag you into my mother's death." I loved when Buffy confides in Tara in "Dead Things"--it really reinforces Tara as a nurturing and loving force, which she very much was. However, although I was delighted to see Buffy speaking with Tara alone, I wasn't sure whether to interpret Buffy asking Tara as such to avoid asking Willow since Willow was supposed to be staying away from magic. I wasn't convinced that Buffy approached Tara as a friend asking another friend for help. However, in OAFA, once again Tara is seen watching out for Buffy when Spike is trying to proposition Buffy, and that was genuinely heartwarming. Then, in "Villains," Buffy and Xander react just how I would expected them to concerning Tara's death. They expressed their remorse verbally, but seemed miles away from shedding any tears. Yes, Buffy was preoccupied with keeping Will from destryoing herself, but it still struck me as unconvincing grief on Buffy's part for Tara. THis just confirms my feelings that Buffy never really (or was never written as)thought of Tara as her own friend, and only as Willow's girlfriend. It was the same with Oz in my opinion. The only time I recall Buffy ever reacting with him in isolation of others was in "Living Conditions." I love the scene of them patrolling together for just that--it shows her acknowldeding his existence. However, otherwise, I never got the feeling that she thought of him as anything more than Will's boyfriend.
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Re: The Buffy Season 7 "Things To Show List" (Spoilers through 7.4 and Angel Season 3) -- Pamela, 11:14:42 10/18/02 Fri
Although this was a very short piece of the plot..we saw a couple clues in 7.4 ep. In the past couple of seasons we've heard Spike admit that he was not or could not be a man -- but Buffy made him feel like a man.
In this ep., we hear twice from Spike referring to himself as a man (sure a bad man - but typically he never used the word man when describing his "evil" or "bad" or whatever ways).
Also, it seems that although still painful - not only did he battle with a human, the effect of the pain seemed to be less than in seasons past, and even lessening during the battle (we'll just have to wait and see about this - whether an oversite on the director's part, or a real clue).
I expect to see Buffy either suggest or even convince Spike to move out of the basement, and to show signs of forgiveness very soon.
As for Willow...we know that she's returned home and is working at getting better, but how is she supporting herself right now? We haven't seen whether Willow will be returning to complete her degree, or take on job/career. (of course she hasn't been home that long...but I'd like to know more about her thoughts on where she would like to take some next steps). Also, has anyone noticed that Willow's character has completely lost her young bookish voice, and now speaks in a lower tone? Definitely womanly and not girlish at all now.
It looks like each character is working at redemption this year. I like this idea, and look forward to seeing how it plays out.
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Re: The Buffy Season 7 "Things To Show List" (Spoilers through 7.4 and Angel Season 3) -- Just George, 11:38:27 10/18/02 Fri
I think a lot of movement on the Buffy / Spike front is possible. I just think all the other relationships will get tackled first. I expect that Spike's living on a very cranky Hellmouth is not helping his sanity any. Moving out may be a very good thing for him.
I hope they don't push Willow to get "back to normal" (school, etc.) too soon. I think this is part of what hurt Buffy in S6. Recovery is hard work, potentially a full time job. Let her do it right.
I had an idea this morning. I noticed that Buffy was crying for Spike in BY when she was in the church, but has been less emotionally connected most other times. I wonder if the forces of the Hellmouth are effecting Buffy's reactions? I heard that the closed captioning of Buffy's "rape flashback" in BY hinted that the images might have been "sent" from the outside. If so, something may be playing with Buffy's emotions regarding Spike. Perhaps the "something" couldn't do so inside the church.
Just a thought.
-JG
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Interesting possibilities. -- Pamela, 11:59:40 10/18/02 Fri
One thing about Buffy that has never really been addressed in the story line (well maybe a little but not to the core of it)...about the one pattern that ties her relationships with males. With the exception of her brotherly/sisterly relationship with Xander...every male that she has ever truly attempted a bonding love for...leaves her.
Her father...not even around for Dawn after Buffy's death.
Giles...things Buffy relies on him too much, so off the England (yes we know he'll always be available for her, but now it's more long distance than the fatherly role he once shared).
Angel...gone.
Parker...one night stand...gone.
Riley...even trying a normal relationship with a regular guy (of which we're not sure if she really ever did fall in love with him...but she tried to).....gone.
So what about Spike. I'm not saying that she loves him or that she doesn't love him or that she is ignorant as to whether or not she loves him...but as long as she continues to believe that there's no way...well then she's safe. (human minds are weird with the ways we concoct strange solutions to anguish).
Easier to loathe him and to get group agreement from her friends about him, even though he may be the one who understands and accepts her (warts and all) -- rather than risk opening up to feelings that may drive him away forever.
Just like you....just a thought!
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that whole chip thing -- shadowkat, 12:49:20 10/18/02 Fri
"Also, it seems that although still painful - not only did he battle with a human, the effect of the pain seemed to be less than in seasons past, and even lessening during the battle (we'll just have to wait and see about this - whether an oversite on the director's part, or a real clue)."
Okay been holding back on this one. (I agree with most of your other points and Just George's btw.) But I think people are forgetting something about that chip scene.
The kid wasn't that injured by Spike's punches. Think about this for a moment. Spike is incredibly strong - he can through a demon through a window, snap a man's neck, tear off demons heads with his bare hands. This kid only had a bleeding nose, barely any other bruises and was still conscious. Spike didn't really hit him that hard. He held back, each time he tried the punch the chip fired. He stopped. Forced himself to do it again. I think the pain's just as strong, but what the soul wants is stronger and the soul wants to protect the girl. And he had to scare the kid away from her and get the cleaver in order to help her.
So I don't think the chip affects him any less. Also a bit of spec? I think the fact he still has that chip is going to be important latter on - after all, what's to keep someone from switching the signal and using the chip to control Spike? So maybe the reason that he is able to rise above the chip's pain right now - is a demonstration of how he'll try and possibly be able to resist any outside manipulation of it?
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Re: that whole chip thing -- Pamela, 13:12:42 10/18/02 Fri
That sounds like some interesting potential plot line stories too. Kinda making a Spikebot???
When I related to the incident w/Spike hitting the highschool student, I was thinking of other instances in the last year. Remember when Spike would practically double over incapacitated when he attempted to inflict harm on humans? Over the last year or so, we've seen it not quite as incapacitating....again, it may be direction or not.
Any ideas about some of the other suspended plot lines? i.e., will we see Jonathan return as an ally this time? Is the morphing entity just a mental image in Spike's head but symbolizing eternal big-bad in general -- or is it real? Is the fact the principle's office is over the Hellmouth significant to Mr. Wood's character development???? Have we seen the last of Tara...or knowing now that "everything is connected" (Lessons)...will she transcend or reincarnate anew?
Hmmmmm! I like the look of possibilities this year!
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Re: that whole chip thing -- Finn Mac Cool, 14:36:03 10/18/02 Fri
In Fool For Love, Spike said killing Buffy would hurt for a couple hours. This implies that the chip gives more pain for longer amounts of time depending on the level of violence. Things like the held back punches to the demon raising kid only give him a small shock. Trying to bite someone in the neck understandably is far greater.
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Re: that whole chip thing -- Pamela, 16:30:29 10/18/02 Fri
Again, no dissagreement. We know that it was (or may still be) fully functional at one time. As neither of us have written the screenplays for upcoming episodes, I guess we'll just have to wait and see.
Whence the authority of leadership on Angel -- JM, 19:34:57 10/17/02 Thu
This is a little disjointed because I started out trying to reply to stuff about the Blame Game on another board. Forgive.
I think that one of the factors tempering our respective responses to this fascinating situation - and only one, I think that there are several other very important ones - is our different philosophies on leadership and authority. I tilt to the more authoritarian than the typical American, I think. I believe I'm right about the need for strong leaders to sometimes make ruthless, authoritarian decisions for the good of others. But I don't know for sure that I'm more morally right than those who believe differently. And more importantly in this context I'm not sure what ME's opinion is, entirely, even given the anti-authoritarian slant of BtVS.
Wes's decisions in Pylea as general were lauded by many (though not all, Strega, the adored moderator, has been admirably consistent). They were really no different than his decisions in "Sleep Tight" except perhaps in magnitude and successfulness. In TNPLPG his heartwarming affirmation to Angel was almost entirely a calculated manipulation and deception. A pre-meditate betrayal of Angel's trust. And it also worked. But Wesley was willing to accept the consequences of it failing. And willing to have Angel accept those consequence, without informed consent. Because he thought the end goal justified it.
With the soldiers who died, who Wes sent into battle knowing that they would die . . . . They signed on knowing they might die and their previous leadership thought total annihilation was a great plan. But I doubt very much that Wes approached each individual soldier on the diversion teams and told them they were embarking on a suicide mission and that they were free to resign without disgrace. I am pretty sure he told them nothing at all. Their voluntary (I hope to God) membership in the rebel army was all the moral authority Wesley thought he needed. I doubt that he didn't mourn them, but I also don't think that he doubted or regretted his decisions. And he came very, very close to defeat. To essentially pissing away those lives. If Cordy hadn't come to and got her bitch on, Silas may very well have killed the entire enslaved cow population.
I think that these decisions foreshadowed his behavior in "Sleep Tight." I think there's also an interesting resonance in Gunn's reaction's to Wes's behavior. He's the only character on the show to explicitly see, hear, and understand the ruthless side to Wes's philosophy of leadership. And in TNPLPG we have only an ambiguous reaction shot to those two back-to-back revelations. At the time I was wondering whether it was weak characterization on the writers' or the actor's part. Now I'm wondering whether it might have been subtle foreshadowing. There were two distinctive interpretations at the time. Because there are two scenes in the episode that illustrate that this doesn't square with Gunn's philosophy of leadership. A philosophy that involved trying to bring every man home alive. One interpretation was that this discussion was an illumination and exoneration for Gunn in the wake of George's death, which was in itself an echo of Alonna's death a year earlier. That perhaps these deaths would weigh easier on Gunn now that he had the perspective of a leader's sacrifices to place them in. The other interpretation was that Gunn would recoil from Wes as an illustration of disturbing amorality. Season three's premiere doesn't demonstrate either of these reactions. Wes is still demonstrably the boss, with Gunn comfortably and fondly lock-stepping behind him.
What we actually do see in TOGoM is that Gunn has reacted to this option by abdicating any intimation of a leadership position. If his only choices are ruthlessness or being ineffectual, he chooses to completely separate himself from his former gang and any position of leadership. Because he won't premeditatedly betray that friendship and trust even if it's necessary. Of course, because he won't accept Wes's theory and he doesn't have a working one of his own any longer to substitute, he ends up betraying everyone on some level. But he wasn't trying to, he was just trying to stall. By the end of the night he's grateful to accept the mantle of subordinate and receive Wes's dressing down. Huge difference from the guy who defied Angel every step of the way in SoR.
This is also an important piece of context for Gunn's reaction in "Forgiving." Before he knows about the prophecy he thinks Wes must have been misunderstood. He assumes Wes was trapped or tricked by Holtz's gang, because it's what he wants to believe. After Fred and Gunn discover Wes's notes, their reactions don't mesh. It's an understated moment, but it's there. Fred is almost ecstatic, at the moment seeing it as exculpation. Gunn got the larger implications pretty quickly, even if he may have gotten some of the details wrong. With a goal as important as protecting Connor, Wes the general, he knew, was perfectly capable of lying to them, and if he considered it necessary, handing Connor over to Holtz and arranging the attack on Hyperion. He didn't, but Gunn is right, if Wes thought it necessary and commensurate he would have found it justified and bearable to sacrifice every one of them. And realizing and suspecting all this, Gunn still wants him alive and well and defends him to Angel and was willing to beat Justine to death for information or satisfaction. (Course Wes doesn't know any of this.) But it's quite possible Gunn no longer trusts Wes or likes him, and may not be able to forgive him.
In the end, how we, and the characters assign blame comes down to our personal opinions on Wes's theories of leadership and authority. (And of course our personal affection for the character and AD's portrayal.) When there were no negative consequences we cared about in Pylea we could overlook it, but with such devastating consequences we are forced as spectators to form some sort of judgment.
I think that Wesley is saddened and perhaps burdened with grief and guilt for the results of his decision. He never wanted to cause such anguish and damage to Connor and Angel, or to the other people who loved them. However, I am not sure whether he regrets or is contrite for the decisions he made. He plays it close to the vest. Personally, I suspect he is not. After Pylea, he accepts his position of leadership at AI in a very similar spirit as his generalship. Yes he loves his friends, but his position of authority takes precedence over those emotions. That's the message he conveyed to Gunn at the end of TOGoM. That he could deeply sympathize with Gunn as a friend, while as a boss he was ready to unhesitatingly terminate him. And although a great essay at Yes!Wes has convinced me that there were some seriously passive-aggressive strains of his personality at play, his decision to abscond with Connor was made largely as that leader-general. His position gave him, he believed, the right and more importantly the responsibility to take this almost immoral action and to make this decision unilaterally. And if absolutely necessary, to abuse the trust of his subordinates to meet his aims. (And to Wes they were first and foremost his subordinates, and only after that his only friends and family.) And this is entirely independent of whether the initiative succeeded or not. Making the hard decisions only when the chance of failure is zero is no different than abrogating the responsibility entirely. And his fury with Gunn and Fred and possibly Angel and Cordelia, is tied very much into this. As friends, they should be willing to extend a small measure of prospective forgiveness. As subordinates they are mutinous in their unwillingness to accept his authority to make this decision.
Is Wes right, or his he horrifyingly wrong? I don't know. In my personal opinion, sometimes the leader does need to make these decision and he does have the authority. And it is unchanged by whether the results were the intended. Am I right? I don't know. What does ME think? We don't know. In Buffy this kind of authority has been repeatedly rejected. In fact, it's possible that Buffy's death was in some cosmic measure a punishment for Giles taking that authority to assassinate Ben. I don't know how the topic will play out on AtS. KdS wrote a masterful essay in August on how Angel's beige arc was a direct refutation of the Dark Avenger archetype in America noir fiction. I think she/he was completely on target. (I sensed it at the time, I just couldn't articulate it.) Perhaps a similar refutation is being set for an authoritarian conception of leadership. Or perhaps something far more ambiguous is in the works.
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Re: Whence the authority of leadership on Angel -- yabyumpan, 00:52:46 10/18/02 Fri
Just some quick fly-by thoughts on Wesley and Authority. I may post something better thought out later.
First of all, I don't know ranking structure in the Army, so I don't really know how General fits in with other ranks but I think that he actually takes his authority from first his father and then the WC. It seems as if he can't think out side the box of his training and that training is the only thing he trusts.
We first see this in 'Consequenses'. He goes against Giles and Buffy's trust in Angel (I don't blame him not trusting Angel at the time) to be able to help Faith and brings in the goons from the WC to take Faith away. He trusts in what he's be tought and not in the people around him.
In Loyalty/Sleep Tight, he trusts everything/one except those around him (his'subordinates'),he puts his trust in books/prophesies/talking hambergers and even his enemies over those who he's closest to and who are closer to the actual situation (just like in 'Consequences') and in doing so actually misses a vital piece of the puzzel (Angel's spiked blood).
I think trust or lack of it, is a major element in Wesley and in his downfall. He trusts Authority (getting shot because of it), he trusts rules, he trusts the written word but he doesn't trust other people and he doesn't trust emotions, esp his own.
I think that's why the relationship with Lilah is so enticing. It's clear that there's no trust and I think he finds some sort of comfort in that because with trust comes intimacy, opening up, vunerability and that's a scary place to be. He knows the 'rules' with Lilah, through not sharing intimacy he retains his own authority. That's why his relationship with Virginia ended. He could have fought to keep it, she obviously cared about him a great deal, but to do that he would have to have taken it to it's next stage, he would have had to start opening up, being intimate, to go to a place where there are no rules, so he let it go.
"Is Wes right, or his he horrifyingly wrong?"
You can probably guess I'm going to say 'horrifyingly wrong'. Although his leadership intincts may be right when it comes to dealing with situations he has no emotional connection to, the every day demon fighting; when it's something he does have an emotional connection to, people he has an emotional connection to, he dismisses his own and others emotional responses which leads him to disaster.
I think the final word should go to Buffy
Buffy: Kendra, my emotions give me power. They're total assets!
From "What's my line 2" compliments of Psyche
Apologies if this is incoherent and for the spelling, just got off of night duty and my brain's a bit mushy ;-)
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Gee thanks, (but I have to go with yabyumpan here) -- KdS, 03:43:46 10/18/02 Fri
Wow, I've never been called "masterful" before :-)
I think yabyumpan's point about Wesley's trust in printed literature over people (and reference back to Consequences) is the key point here. In Pylea the situation was fairly clear-cut and his decision would have been defensible even if wrong (in that situation, I'd expect any member of the rebels with local knowledge who came up with a better idea to put it forward.) In L/ST Wes failed to voice his suspicions to anyone, trusted everyone but the people he should have and proceeded to a full-scale "goat rope" (thanks to whoever introduced that pithy little metaphor a few months back).
I think that one shouldn't discuss this whole question about the responsibilities of leadership without some reference to Helpless. Quentin proceeds from precisely Wesley's standpoint and the result is catastrophic, made worse by his failure to react to the developing situation. Admittedly the deck is stacked there by the gross disproportion between the risks/magnitude of betrayal and the actual advantage achievable, but I think that this pretty much makes ME's opinion on the matter clear.
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Re: Gee thanks, (but I have to go with yabyumpan here) -- JM, 04:57:59 10/18/02 Fri
Thanks to both of you for responding. Hopefully you're getting some sleep now. Agree with you that Wes has enormous trust issues, in the sense that at the deepest level he trusts no one emotionally. Which seems logically consistant for someone raised in an environment where the two people who were supposed to protect him from harm were causing it or letting it happen. Also agree that's probably the most comfortable thing about his relationship with Lilah. He doesn't trust her, and he's made sure she knows she can't trust him. And apparently with his new gang he's making sure to avoid emotional relationships. So I do think that a lot, lot more went into his decision and his emotional state last spring than just his take on authority.
I do think though that what we as an audience think about authority colors our assessment and measuring of blame. This post mostly came out of reading another board where there were a lot of posts breaking down between everything is Wes's fault and he's being an immoral SOB versus the rest of AI are being harsh ingrates. And it seemed like more than just the appeal of the characters was coloring the assessments of blame.
I do suspect that ME will stay true to form and definitively state that authority can never be absolute and that human connection overides those prerogatives of leadership. Thus far though the text is much less clear on the topic than past examples. Pretty much right off the bat in "Helpless" we knew that Council were behaving like a bunch of goons. When Angel went off the deep end in S2, even those of us who sympathized with lawyer-fest suspected after "Redefinition" that Angel wasn't playing on the side of the angels. The moral of the story this time out hasn't crystalized unambiguously yet. Fine with me.
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Getting all the sleep I need - where I live it's lunchtime! -- KdS, 05:13:55 10/18/02 Fri
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Re: Gee thanks, (but I have to go with yabyumpan here) -- yabyumpan, 11:39:21 10/18/02 Fri
"I do think though that what we as an audience think about authority colors our assessment and measuring of blame. This post mostly came out of reading another board where there were a lot of posts breaking down between everything is Wes's fault and he's being an immoral SOB versus the rest of AI are being harsh ingrates. And it seemed like more than just the appeal of the characters was coloring the assessments of blame."
I agree with you on this. I am very anti-authoritarian and have been angry at Wesley since'Couplet' for what I see as his abuse of his authority/leadership role.
Although I can neither like or admire Wesley right now I can step back and see that he is totally in character and see this almost as a natural progression of his story line. I just hope ME allows Wesley to have some insight and personal growth with all this and it's not just something that's swept under the carpet.
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Fred as leader, Giles killing Dawn (vague spoilers for 4.2) -- Scroll, 13:11:44 10/18/02 Fri
Personally, I think Wesley's character growth has been handled the best of the entire "Angel" cast. So far, Wesley is being evolved consistently, logically, and interestingly -- we can clearly see how one step leads to the next, and I find it bloody fascinating :)
I too agree with JM that how we view authority/leadership has a great deal to do with how we view Wesley. For instance, I loved that Angel stepped down from his role as leader in "Epiphany" because I saw it as (partly) Angel's acknowledgement that his tendancy to rush head-long into danger, based mostly on his emotions, is a bad quality to have in a leader. I saw Angel admitting that he'd had flawed judgement (about Darla, W&H, etc.) and needed his friends to guide him.
My take on Gunn is pretty much in line with JM's, though not as well thought out or articulated. Thanks, JM! I can understand why Gunn has backed off from being a leader, and why Fred of all people is now "leader" of Angel Investigations. And she's on the verge of a mental breakdown. Makes me respect Buffy and Wesley, and the fact that Willow wasn't more out of control in early S6, so much more! Not everyone is cut out to be a leader. Personally, I suck at leadership. Or at least, I don't like it very much. I enjoy co-operating or following someone else's lead. It's not that I don't know how to lead a group, just that it is entirely too stressful for me to take on a leader role for long periods of time. (Having said that, I totally empathise with Fred which, wow, I'm empathising with Fred!)
I'll admit that Wesley is definitely emotionally closed-off. He doesnt' trust himself (especially after "Billy") and he doesn't trust his friends' feelings for him either. If I can draw a parallel to Buffy (with Lilah as Spike), I think Wesley doesn't see himself as being all that loveable or deserving of it. At the end of last season, he seems to lose himself in his encounters with Lilah partly because he doesn't trust her and she doesn't trust him. Perhaps a parallel with Willow can also be drawn. The Willow of early S6 had been the leader of the Scoobies, she was "The Boss of Us". Being the boss seemed to weigh heavily on Willow's shoulders. In "Bargaining", she kept repeating how she'd "fix it, don't worry". I'm not condoning Wesley's actions or even saying he had as much pressure on him as Willow, but he certainly seems to have the attitude of "I'll fix it, don't worry" in "Loyalty" and "Sleep Tight".
The Watcher mentality is something I've thought a lot about because I think it's something many of us can't understand (perhaps because most of us come from an anti-authoritarian standpoint). The Watcher credo is very much "ends-justifies-the-means", though we've seen it in varying degrees on both Buffy and Angel. For instance, I totally understand (and if it were real life, agree) with Giles' stance to kill Dawn if it meant saving the world. It's not a pretty decision -- but it's one Giles must make.
(I'm just rambling now, so forgive me if I don't make sense.) However, Buffy was the leader in this situation. She decided that she wouldn't kill Dawn, even if it meant saving the world. We'll never know if Giles would've gone through with killing Dawn (I suspect he would have) because Buffy fortunately came up with a loophole. The situation with baby Connor was different since Wesley (the leader) is not Connor's relative (like Buffy with Dawn). Who has the moral authority in this case? The leader of the group? Or the father of the child? I'd say the father. But it isn't as simple as that, since the father was the danger (as far as Wesley knew). So Wes took it upon himself to make the decision without informing his subordinates. I think this was very foolish of him, and it did break the trust between leader and group. However, I do wonder: if Giles had had no choice but to kill Dawn, would he have succeeded? He had informed Buffy of his decision, and she would have been ready to kill him to protect her sister. What would've happened? (Well, I suppose Dawn was ready to jump. I never said it was a perfect scenario! Just speculating on possible outcomes...)
Anyway, I think Wesley still cares a hell of a lot for Angel, Connor, and the rest of the Fang Gang. However, he doesn't feel ready to trust them again and they obviously don't trust him either. I'm loving his interaction with Lilah simply because both are using the other, both know they're being used, and neither cares. It's bloody fascinating. ;)
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The failure of leadership on Angel/SPOILER 4.2 PREVIEW 4.3 -- alcibiades, 07:15:25 10/19/02 Sat
Fred of all people is now "leader" of Angel Investigations. And she's on the verge of a mental
breakdown.
So we have three leadership models as heads of AI and three failures.
Maybe Fred is right that it will be get easier since Angel is back -- and it may for a while (but since this is ME not for long) -- but over the summer her leadership failed, I think, because of the way she had interacted with Wesley after Connor's kidnapping. Because none of them knew how Wesley managed to get his throat slit -- because neither Fred nor Gunn, nor previous to the summer Angel nor Cordelia took time to talk to Wesley about what happened, the entire summer long she nurtured the very thing that would defeat all her attempts to raise Angel.
Fred mentioned that she and Gunn had asked Wesley twice for help, but asking Wesley only for help is the very thing that is not going to produce help from him in the way she wants it. Wesley doesn't want to be used, he wants to be seen and then he'll be happy to help. He's tired of being used and appreciated only for his gray cells.
So, too, the very moment Wesley delivers Angel to the hotel, for which no one -- NOT EVEN ANGEL -- thanks him, and Fred tells Wesley only "you don't care any more, do you" as he begins to depart -- that kind of response only proves to Wesley that none of them are seeing him at all and is not going to be successful as a clarion call to his heart at bringing him back to the fold.
Meanwhile, Fred's leadership seems all about getting the family back to what it was before it all broke apart. Wes, not she, succeeded with Angel. Wes, not she, led the way with locating Cordelia, and from what Cordelia commented about it, Angel failed to see what was going on when he did use the Axis of Pythea -- I think she is imprisoned same as Billy was in hell but that is besides the point in this post -- and now, judging from the Preview, in 4.3 they are going to find out about one other remaining family member -- Lorne to try to get him back.
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Leaders and followers (spoilers for Angel season 2) -- Shiraz, 12:00:30 10/18/02 Fri
A very good post, but I think you miss a very important aspect of the Leadership role Wes takes on in Ats Seasons 2 and 3.
In my experience true, effective leadership comes from the mutual trust between that leader and those they lead.
Angel had the trust of those under him in Season 1, but, because he did not have a similiar trust in Wes, Gunn, and Cordie, he abandoned them. When Angel did that, he lost the trust of his team, and therefore his leadership status.
Wes stepped into this void through the consensus of the rest of the group and slowly gained the trust of the rest of the team. (most significantly by taking a bullet in TDL)
The establishment of this trust is what allowed him to do what needed to be done in TNPLPG despite Gunn's objections to his strategy. He trusts Gunn and Angel enough that he knows they will follow his orders even if they do object to them (aside: IMO Gunn was perfectly justified in voicing his concerns, it's the responsibility of subordinates to question orders they view as dangerous).
However, by the time we get to Sleep Tight, Wes is no longer showing any trust in his subordinates. He doesn't share any of his knowlege of the prophesy or his plans for Connor. In fact he shares more information with his adversary Holtz than he does with any member of his team. As a result, he couldn't use any of their talents in his investigation.
Think about it, even without Angel the Fang Gang is a pretty impressive team, comprised of two psychics, a top-notch physisist and a crack street fighter. Any one of them would have been a help to him in is research and/or escape. But in the end, its just him, burdened down with baby Connor.
Without support from the team he is easy pickings for Justine and Holtz.
I'm not saying that Wes didn't have his reasons for taking Connor, but the decisions he made during that time were not leadership decisions, because of being a leader means putting trust in your subordinates.
By taking actions behind his teams back, he betrayed their trust in him, and essentially abdicated his role as leader.
-Shiraz
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Wes didn't tell Holtz anything -- Scroll, 12:24:53 10/18/02 Fri
He doesn't share any of his knowlege of the prophesy or his plans for Connor. In fact he shares more information with his adversary Holtz than he does with any member of his team.
You're right that Wes doesn't share any of his knowledge with the Fang Gang, but neither does he share info with Holtz. Holtz already knew about the prophecy through his own spy, Audrey.
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Re: Wes didn't tell Holtz anything -- JM, 13:50:11 10/18/02 Fri
Actually I don't think Wesley was guilty of betraying them to Holtz. He was guilty of seriously underestimating Holtz. The first meeting is not premeditated at all, simply seredipitous. The bad kind. And both encounters are attempts at some kind of parley. Wes has no reason to think that Holtz might not actually be a good man. His life's work was not all that much different than AI's, at least not in the beginning.
The meetings are enough to convince Wes that Holtz is probably very dangerous and untrustworthy, but not enough to give him the full measure of the man. What he doesn't realize is that they are enough to give Holtz everything he needs to know about Wesley to spring a clever trap. Wes shares information with Holtz, but it's inadvertant. He was broadcasting just as much information, probably a lot more, to his friends, unintentionally, through his behavior. They just aren't as good at reading him.
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Re: Wes didn't tell Holtz anything -- Shiraz, 15:00:13 10/18/02 Fri
I don't think the rest of the gang were completely clueless about what was happening with Wes, but they were reluctant to say or do anything about it.
This goes back to the leadership issue, the Fred, Gunn et. al. trusted Wes to let them know if anything was up; he was the BOSS after all.
Can I Be Amoung the First to Say It? ---"She'll tell you. Someday she'll tell you." -- Forsaken, 22:42:47 10/17/02 Thu
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Which means, of course: -- HonorH, 23:03:17 10/17/02 Thu
Next week, the waitress at the Bronze will tell him the Blooming Onion is back on the menu, and that, my friends, will be what finally makes it all make sense to Spike!
And on that note, and extreme "Good night!"
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ROFLMAO! -- Rob, 11:30:42 10/18/02 Fri
And here I thought it was gonna be Buffy, leaning warmly over Spike and uttering the words he's longed to hear:
"Dude, you're getting a Dell!"
Rob
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That was a good one !! -- Artemis, 20:43:18 10/18/02 Fri
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Re: Can I Be Amoung the First to Say It? ---"She'll tell you. Someday she'll tell you." -- Purple Tulip, 14:03:34 10/18/02 Fri
Ok, all joking aside....did anyone else get a warm fuzzy hearing Casie say this thinking that it means that one day Buffy will tell Spike that she does actually love him? That was really the first thing that I thought she could be talking about. But then I thought that maybe she could mean that one day Buffy will tell Spike that she forgives him for everything that has happened between them, or that one day Buffy will tell Spike that she sees him as a man and not a monster....what do you all think?
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Re: Can I Be Amoung the First to Say It? ---"She'll tell you. Someday she'll tell you." -- Wisewoman, 14:11:06 10/18/02 Fri
Because the lines were so obviously designed to have Spuffy fans (and I include myself among them) immediately think that Buffy will someday tell Spike that she loves him, I have to assume that this will NOT be what she tells him...hey, Mutant Enemy is just like that, y'know?
If Cassie picked up on the question that was uppermost on what's left of Spike's mind, I'd say it's probably, "Will the girl ever forgive me?" In which case, Buffy probably will.
;o) dub
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Show of Hands: Does Anyone Really Think the Meaning of that Line Will Be Anything We Can Predict? -- Finn Mac Cool, 14:40:31 10/18/02 Fri
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No! It sounds too much like what they want us to think it sounds like! (or am i just paranoid?) -- Rob, 23:21:58 10/18/02 Fri
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Who even says "she" is Buffy?" -- HonorH, 19:26:42 10/18/02 Fri
Just sayin'. We've been led down the Primrose Path before, and Joss isn't above doing it again.
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Alternate shes (casting spoiler everyone already knows) -- d'Herblay, 20:13:12 10/18/02 Fri
Absolutely. However, it has to be someone important enough to Spike that he'd recognize a pronoun without antecedent. To my mind, this means, if not Buffy, either Drusilla or Cecily. As Kali Rocha is still hanging about the set, and ME hinted back in "Older and Far Away," that she knows (from her pre-Halfrek role as Cecily) Spike as William, I'm laying odds on "Ohmigod! I so am effulgent!"
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Or... (another casting spoiler) -- Rob, 23:23:04 10/18/02 Fri
....Faith? Maybe she has some news for Spikey boy.
Rob
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Re: Or... (another casting spoiler) -- Cleanthes, 09:38:55 10/19/02 Sat
Faith? Maybe she has some news for Spikey boy.
Rob
Spike only met Faith when he thought she was Buffy, right?
Nevertheless, that sexually coruscated encounter may have been the spark that set off all of Spike's more effulgent obsession.
Maybe Spike has been in love with that "Buffy" all along and doesn't know it. Maybe Faith will finally get her opportunity to boink the undead. Stay tuned!
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Wouldn't that be fun! Especially Buffy's insane reaction to hearing the news -- diarmuid, 15:37:43 10/19/02 Sat
B7.03 STSP/Robbie Burns -- abt, 11:09:38 10/18/02 Fri
IIRC Gnarl used the word 'gifty' three times.
This reminds me of Robbie Burns, "O would some power the giftie gie us, to see ourselves as others see us!",
as Willow was now on the receiving end of a skin stripping.
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Re: B7.03 STSP/Robbie Burns -- Cleanthes, 20:06:59 10/18/02 Fri
An excellent point. Creatures feeding on people, whether gnarls or vampires must sometimes think:
Ye ugly, creepin, blastit wonner,
Detested, shunn'd by saunt an' sinner,
How daur ye set your fit upon her-
Sae fine a lady?
Gae somewhere else and seek your dinner
On some poor body
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Re: B7.03 STSP/Robbie Burns -- aliera, 09:01:24 10/19/02 Sat
Interesting...and D'H mentioned freemasonry recently...
"THOU of independent mind,
With soul resolv'd and soul resign'd;
Prepar'd Power's proudest frown to brave,
Who wilt not be, nor have a slave;
Virtue alone who dost revere..."
"But to see her was to love her,
Love but her, and love forever."
"Chords that vibrate sweetest pleasure
Thrill the deepest notes of woe."
"And like a passing thought, she fled
In light, away."
Mostly (OT) Gabriel or Collins Who would Spike Choose? -- neaux, 11:23:27 10/18/02 Fri
Havent seen much action on the board today so I thought I would propose a Musical Question and very very loosely link it to the Buffyverse.
My boss threw me the Genesis Archive Boxset today to listen to (I guess to educate me on life before Phil Collins.) And having only SEEN the Behind the Music on Genesis, I was intrigued to actually listen to it.
Lemme say from the pictures that accompany the discs, Peter Gabriel is quite an interesting man. Kinda Spooky. The music is really damn good to.. flutes and such.. mythical and magical. But would this be up Spike's alley?
so that's my question: Would the Spike of 67-75 been up for Genesis then ?
or maybe the William deep inside might have liked it? Would Spike have even considered to listen to Phil Collins' version of Genesis?
If you are bored, Post away.
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Opinionated response -- matching mole, 12:11:03 10/18/02 Fri
Somehow I don't think that Spike would have been into that Nancy-boy art rock stuff. I quite like the early Genesis but I wouldn't think of it as being Spike's cup of tea. In the pre-punk days I'd see him as more of a glam-rock fan (I can see him singing Ballroom Blitz as he gets in a nice spot of violence).
William probably would have loved the PG era Genesis. Just his cup of tea.
And I would be really, really disappointed in Spike is he professed a fondness for the latter-day Genesis. Never, IMHO, has a band fallen so far before or since in the history of 'rock' (whatever that might mean these days). Even a friend of mine, who generally doesn't like art rock, described them as going from a pretty good art rock band to a really bad pop band. Hope that's enough opinonated diatribe to stir up some comments.
On a side note I think that Spike, in his current mental state, might find listening to Peter Gabriel's third solo album (the one with the melting face on the cover) very cathartic. Songs like 'Intruder', 'No Self Control', 'I Don't Remember', and 'And Through the Wire' seem very applicable to his tortured soul.
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Re: Mostly (OT) Gabriel or Collins Who would Spike Choose? -- vh, 12:11:34 10/18/02 Fri
I'd say he'd be more into Gabriel than Collins, but, on the other hand, I'd think he'd be more into something a little harder-edged overall.
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Spike's musical tastes -- Arethusa, 12:18:20 10/18/02 Fri
The old Spike probably would have found Collins too mellow. How about Sting? I can see the Spike of two years ago humming "I'll Be Watching You" while rifling through Buffy's lingerie drawers.
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Spike & Sting *SR spoiler* -- Lyonors, 14:16:56 10/18/02 Fri
I can TOTALLY see Spike, especially the current one, liking Sting. Well, first there is the one-named-man-with-great-abs similarity... But as far as Crazy!Spike's listening pleasure these days....especially because of his renewed appreciation for poetry:
Desert Rose
I dream of rain
I dream of gardens in the desert sand
I wake in pain
I dream of love as time runs through my hand
I dream of fire
Those dreams are tied to a horse that will never tire
And in the flames
Her shadows play in the shape of a man's desire
This desert rose
Each of her veils, a secret promise
This desert flower
No sweet perfume ever tortured me more than this
And as she turns
This way she moves in the logic of all my dreams
This fire burns
I realise that nothing's as it seems
I dream of rain
I dream of gardens in the desert sand
I wake in pain
I dream of love as time runs through my hand
I dream of rain
I lift my gaze to empty skies above
I close my eyes, this rare perfume
Is the sweet intoxication of her love
I dream of rain
I dream of gardens in the desert sand
I wake in pain
I dream of love as time runs through my hand
Sweet desert rose
Each of her veils, a secret promise
This desert flower
No sweet perfume ever tortured me more than this
Sweet desert rose
This memory of Eden haunts us all
This desert flower, this rare perfume
Is the sweet intoxication of the fall
Clearly...poetic notions of a girl....except, William's poetic notions of a girl would be really badly written...
Fortress Around Your Heart
Under the ruins of a walled city
Crumbling towers in beams of yellow light
No flags of truce, no cries of pity
The siege guns had been pounding through the night
It took a day to build the city
We walked through its streets in the afternoon
As I returned across the fields I'd known
I recognised the walls that I once made
I had to stop in my tracks for fear
Of walking on the mines I'd laid
And if I've built this fortress around your heart
Encircled you in trenches and barbed wire
Then let me build a bridge
For I cannot fill the chasm
And let me set the battlements on fire
Then I went off to fight some battle
That I'd invented inside my head
Away so long for years and years
You probably thought, or even wished that I was dead
While the armies all are sleeping
Beneath the tattered flag we'd made
I had to stop in my tracks for fear
Of walking on the mines I'd laid
And if I've built this fortress around your heart
Encircled you in trenches and barbed wire
Then let me build a bridge
For I cannot fill the chasm
And let me set the battlements on fire
This prison has now become your home
A sentence you seem prepared to pay
It took a day to build the city
We walked through its streets in the afternoon
As I returned across the lands I'd known
I recognised the fields where I'd once played
I had to stop in my tracks for fear
Of walking on the mines I'd laid
And if I've built this fortress around your heart
Encircled you in trenches and barbed wire
Then let me build a bridge
For I cannot fill the chasm
And let me set the battlements on fire
To Crazy!Spike this would be his attempt to show Buffy his grief about the attempted rape, not really apologizing because that would be tearing down the walls, building a bridge would be more like awknowledging his wrongs and trying to move on and build from them
I Was Brought to my Senses
Alone with my thoughts this evening
I walked on the banks of Tyne
I wondered how I could win you
Or if I could make you mine
Or if I could make you mine
The wind it was so insistent
With tales of a stormy south
But when I spied two birds in a sycamore tree
There came a dryness in my mouth
Came a dryness in my mouth
For then without rhyme or reason
The two birds did rise up to fly
And where the two birds were flying
I swear I saw you and I
I swear I saw you and I
I walked out this morning
It was like a veil had been removed from before my eyes
For the first time I saw the work of heaven
In the line where the hills had been married to the sky
And all around me every blade of singing grass
Was calling out your name and that our love would always last
And inside every turning leaf
Is the pattern of an older tree
The shape of our future
The shape of all our history
And out of the confusion
Where the river meets the sea
Came things I'd never seen
Things I'd never seen
I was brought to my senses
I was blind but now that I can see
Every signpost in nature
Said you belong to me
I know it's true
It's written in a sky as blue
As blue as your eyes, as blue as your eyes
If nature's red in tooth and claw
Like winter's freeze and summer's thaw
The wounds she gave me
Were the wounds that would heal me
And we'd be like the moon and sun
And when our courtly dance had run
Its course across the sky
Then together we would lie
And out of the confusion
Where the river meets the sea
Something new would arrive
Something better would arrive
I was brought to my senses
I was blind but now that I can see
Every signpost in nature
Said you belong to me
This would be the song that would sum up the reasons Spike went-a-soul-hunting IMHO
*NOTE* All songs written by Sting et al, lyrics courtesy of Sting.com
Mind you, all of these opinions are the fruit of an overworked mind trying to find something else to think about then the blasted Nutcracker...
Ly
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Re: Mostly (OT) Who would Spike Choose? -- pr10n, 12:16:51 10/18/02 Fri
"Oy, that Collins git shoulda never left the drum kit."
I say (IMHO) Spike would have shunned the whole question after 1979, thinking Phil Collins a wanker and pretentious studio drummer and Peter Gabriel a full-on Art Rock wonk, and dismissing the whole Brian Eno/King Crimson crowd in favor of slashed-shirt three-chord slamdancing.
But I lived and died by that stuff in high school, and also embraced puNk as much as possible in the one-horse I grew up in.
Maybe before 1967-1975 Spike was a Steve Howe-worshipper with a 12-string and a fluffy shirt. Makes some of you twitch, don't it? Spike as the original Crimson King?
And Gabriel left Genesis in 1975, so that's plenty of time for Spike to get sick of ELP's triple albums and the whole ego blow-up that is one of the reasons punk rock kicked the jams out in the first place.
If Spike was attracted to laser light shows more than the music, he would follow Collins, but I suspect he would have abandoned Art Rock completely.
But look at the early '80s: most of the better Art Rockers went Glam and then punk themselves. Robert Fripp's League of Gentleman was an amazing combination of Art and Punk, and some Eno songs (Baby's on Fire) are all about that rebellious vibe.
By 1980 I think Spike would have found Peter Gabriel again. Gabriel redrew his musical maps after Genesis, and Phil Collins -- well, ABACAB is cool, but it's punk-derivative, and my version of Spike would have no truck with derivative.
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Could Spike Identify with RAEL? -- neaux, 12:48:40 10/18/02 Fri
there is no way I could possibly understand the story of Rael but I know it involves him in New York. And I think Spike was in New York around the same time or was he?
When was Spike all Subway Billy Idol Like? Was that the 70's or early 80's?
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Cross between punk rocker and brooding hipster -- Caroline, 13:14:15 10/18/02 Fri
Spike killed Nikki, the NY slayer in 1977. Judging from his appearance at that time, he was definitely a punk - he seemed to have a touch of the Sid Vicious in him. However, in an omitted scene from one of the shooting scripts in season 6 (I think it was Smashed) Spike prepares his crypt so that he can bring Buffy back and shag her, after he's realized the chip is non-functional against her. According to the writers, Spike puts on Avalon, by Roxy Music. Now Bryan Ferry is not exactly punk rock. I think Spike is a hopeless romantic deep down - he would really go for that tortured, brooding melancholy of love. Can't you just here him singing to Buffy that there is nothing 'More Than This'? Or the irony of 'Why is my Heart Still Beating'? He would also be more Joy Division and Smtiths than Gabriel imho.
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The Smiths... Of course... -- KdS, 07:44:46 10/19/02 Sat
Sweetness, sweetness I was only joking
When I said I'd like to smash every tooth
In your head
Oh ... sweetness, sweetness, I was only joking
When I said by rights you should be
Bludgeoned in your bed
And now I know how Joan of Arc felt
Now I know how Joan of Arc felt, oh
As the flames rose to her roman nose
And her Walkman started to melt
Oh ...
Bigmouth, la ... bigmouth, la ...
Bigmouth strikes again
I've got no right to take my place
In the Human race
The Smiths "Bigmouth Strikes Again"
All summer I've had visions of Spike and Willow duetting on that one in Caritas :-)
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Well lets see... -- shadowkat, 21:01:04 10/19/02 Sat
We know the boy likes the Sex Pistols (Harmony is burning his CD of it in The Initiative and he's listening to Sid Vicious singing My Way in Lover's Walk (actually it's Gary Oldman as Sid Vicious singing it...but whatever) ).
We know he likes the Ramones - he literally asks her if she does in Crush and hums a few bars from "I wanna be sedated" - great song by the way. That's 80's punk.
So my guess? Maybe a little Gabriel. Definitely not the other guy. More likely the Smiths, the Clash, Velvet Underground, maybe a little Nirvana (though he tends to be more into the 80s bands and the Brit bands). Might go for a little Berlin and some Depech Mode (sp?), wonder if he'd like the Stones? (no too mainstream I think).
Giles was into Pink Floyd and The Who. (He's singing one of the Who's songs in Where the Wild Things Are.) But can't really see Spike being into that.
Hmmm...Spike seems to like the opposite of William. So ensouled Spike? Might go for more Who, Stones, a little Pink, some Nirvana??
Shadowkat (who is not only beginning to feel dated by her music knowledge but thinks she needs some new CD's...the last purchase in a year being OMWF.)
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Re: Could Spike Identify with RAEL? -- matching mole, 13:18:46 10/18/02 Fri
I never got the last Peter Gabriel Genesis LP which is the concept album dealing with Rael so I'm not familiar with the story myself.
Billy Idol was originally in the punk band Gen X in the late 70s and he became a solo star in the early 80s (if I can trust my memory to link events and songs I think that 'White Wedding' was released in 1982).
You do bring up an interesting point about Spike's travels and where he was when. We know that he was at Woodstock (fed off a flower child) and thus in New York state in 1969. And he was in New York City in 1977 (I believe that was the correct date) when he kills his second slayer. Then he appears in Sunnydale in the late 1990s. I don't know of any statements in the show that specifically link him to other parts of the world but I'm sure that those of you with a more encyclopedic knowledge of the show than mine can fill in any gaps.
New York City in the mid-70s was the birthplace of punk rock as a social phenomenon, albeit a small and exclusive one. For the NY punks (Ramones, Talking Heads, Patti Smith Group, etc.), punk was more a philosophical stance than a style of appearance or fashion. However, according to one anecdote I've read (no claims to reliability) the standard punk style (spiky hair, ripped clothing, safety pins) was originated by one Richard Hell. Hell started out as the bassist for Television, one of the earliest NY punk bands and eventually formed his own band, Richard Hell and the Voidoids. Perhaps Spike saw them at CBGBs and adopted the punk style? How else to explain Spike's rather anachronistic appearance (hair in particular) when seen on that New York subway?
Don't mind me - I'm just amusing myself.
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I've been amusing myself for 27 going on 28 chapters on just that very theme -- Dead Soul, 21:31:49 10/18/02 Fri
email me and I'll share
Dead (and die-hard punk) Soul
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Spike the masochist punk rocker in NYC? Surely the Velvet Underground! -- Herne, 15:40:06 10/18/02 Fri
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"Venus in Furs" -- Dead Soul, 21:33:25 10/18/02 Fri
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Neither...just look at the boy. -- Ironmaiden, 16:39:13 10/18/02 Fri
Cleary Sid Vicious or Billy Idol or something more Punkish than new wave ish.
Super-Evil Review of 7.4 "Help" (Absolutely NO SPOILERS! C'mon! Trust the evil thing! Bwahahaha!!) -- d'Horrible the Usurper, 13:42:56 10/18/02 Fri
Normally at this time, Honorificus (the Pasty, Lopsided One) disgraces us with her presence, hosting this curious event. (For those of you who are parasitic, I use "host" in a sense different from the one you may be used to -- though, to be honest, Honorificus is not unaccustomed to hosting parasites.) Unfortunately, the Hell-Bitch's infernal recording machine was the latest victim of the curse that is epidemic among us. I have paged through the great catalog of evisceration contraptions, The Sharper Imaginarium, and nothing dreamed up by the ironsmiths of the Torture Dimension Kr'gzzyt can match these VCRs of these damned humans for sheer diabolical aggravation. "Twelve O'CLOCK! Twelve O'CLOCK! Twelve O'CLOCK!" Ok, already! Reminds me of this Maluquinor I knew back during the Second Punic War who could freeze time in its tracks. He kept talking on and on about his prize-winning collection of fungus; I stuck a tentacle down his throat and yanked out seven of his nine hearts myself. In the absence of She-Who-Makes-the-Earth-Wish-For-Harry-Groener, I have seized her throne. What? Was I supposed to respect her priority? Such ethics have no place among demons. In any case, I am much more qualified than She-With-The-Perm-Of-Nightmares to fill this role. I have my talon on the pulse of American culture; it is I who will be doing the bloodletting.
I have seen this thing called Help!, and a worse work of humankind I cannot imagine: Insipid antics, insane caterwaulings, and I believe that in the physiognomic dialects of certain face-feeling Dwallgoth tribes, the nose of this "Ringo" is a sexual overture. The music was a best a mere approximation of true soul music -- you know, the symphonies produced by the tormenting of actual damned souls. When you put someone on the eternal rotisserie -- now, that's music!
What? I'm supposed to be reviewing the episode "Help" from Buffy: Public Enemy No. 1? You still watch that? Doesn't everyone know that it jumped the Midgard Serpent years ago? It hasn't been any good since Buffy killed the mother bezoar by jumping into its pit with a pickax. Everyone knows you can't kill a bezoar until you've eaten its brains, sautéed in butter with garlic and onions and a hint of cilantro. A nice cabernet sauvignon complements it superbly.
I have seen this episode "Help," and it's not half-bad. It certainly opens well. Buffy and her measly little friends in coffins; memorize this image, creatures! This is your goal! Unfortunately, they get out of the coffins; this is a scene made much more enjoyable by watching it on rewind. Ok, which one of you jokers vamped Billie Bird??? How many times do I have to tell you fiends? Evil is supposed to be seductive! Billie Piper, yes! Billie Bird, a thousand times no! Don't you see where this will lead if it is not nipped in the bud? "I'm sorry, Bobby, Grandma won't be here for Christmas. She's evil now." "Oh. In that case, I'm going to burn my Eminem albums and help John Ashcroft make the world a better place. Can I have skim milk with my brussel sprouts, please?"
After the commercial break, we find just how far Buffy has fallen from being the champion of goodness and niceness. Indeed, she seems to have settled into a profession that actively recruits the youth of America onto the path of unrighteousness. Can anyone cause more grief, more resentment, more repressed rage than a high school guidance counselor? Judging from her style, Buffy will be no exception. She's ready to crush the hopes and dreams of an entire generation. And when these students have been pummeled and pulverized by her, we'll be there to do the mopping up. Anyway, "Blah, blah, blah, my life sucks. I used to be Brad on Home Improvement! Now I'm a guest star on UPN. Kill me now." At this time, I'd like to deny all responsibility for the creation or popularity of Home Improvement. The horrors we dream up can't hold a candle to what the apes inflict on each other. (When holding a candle to someone, it is important to choose a sensitive spot.)
Meanwhile, the thing called "Willow" and the thing called "Xander" walk through a green and sunny park. The Xander thing pretends to have a knowledge of American History; Willow discusses how easy it would be for her to go back to her destructive ways, and how ultimately futile it is for her to resist the One True Calling. Oh, she's had a taste of power, and now she wants to order take-out every night. Xander pretends to have a grasp of metaphor:So, you're hammering, right? If you hold the end of the hammer you have the power, but no control. So it takes like two strokes to hit the nail in, or you could hit your thumb. So you choke up. Control, but no power. You could take like ten strokes to hit the nail in. Power/control. It's a trade-off.
Manticore droppings! You use a sledgehammer, and have one of your Geckoid minions hold the nail. Don't worry about crushing their precious little hands -- they'll just grow back. Xander will learn this technique well when he is inversely crucified after the great conquest. (By the way, when are these morons going to realize that "From Beneath You, It Devours," is just demon slang for cunnilingus? Some acne-faced Auchzy demon is making prank calls on the ethereal transmitter again.) What Xander fails to understand is that the expression of power is the exercise of control and vice-versa; it's totalitarian isometrics!
Willow shows she's still thinking clearly by offering a use for a hammer more to my liking, and then walks up the hill; we're in a cemetery (though not one of the countless cemeteries we have been familiarized with before). She approaches a grave, and I'm thinking she's finally going to apologize to Warren for not banding together and making the world a sweller place, but no, it's the grave of her little orgasm-friend. She places a few rocks on the headstone, obviously a variation on the traditions of the Pir-Sha'i clan. The Pir-Sha'i will build a dolmen from the gizzard stones of a fallen comrade-in-arms. It's quite touching, really. Always brings a tear to my eyestalk.
And it's back to Buffy's office, where she meets a student named Cassie (obviously short for cassowary, a sort of bird that can kill a man with one kick to the chest). Cassie, who speaks as though she's a kewpie doll sculpted out of granola, is played by Azura Skye, and, to answer the question burning on all your minds (sorry about the soldering iron), yes, Azura Skye is one of ours. This reminds me that I've been meaning to make it clear that if you're going to try to pass, you can't use pick your name from the Ford Prefect manual! Too many of you pick a combination because you like the sound: "Azura Skye," "Wolf Blitzer," "Dick Armey," "David Schwimmer." You might as well get a Social Security card with "Nazgaroth of the Eighteen Hells" printed on it! Take notes from Quomindurang the Shape shifter and go with something simple. Look at how far he's gotten with "Bill Gates." Of course, he still hasn't quite mastered the biomechanics of his human form, but at least no one's recognizing his true nature off of voter rolls. Azura Skye will have less of a chance of going undetected: she hasn't quite mastered hiding her nictitating membrane, and like most Flambrog demons, she is obviously carrying her egg sack under that false chin. She looks like Kate Hudson after a round of Kai's Power Goo.
Cassie thinks she's going to die. Not soon enough for my tastes. Cassie's random thoughts are given more credence when she correctly predicts that the Slayer will be clumsy -- never that risky a proposition. You'd be going out on as much of a limb to predict that Buffy might take a breath as a pratfall. Anyway, Buffy tests her new power by exercising control over little fake girl Dawn, convincing the trinket to spy on Cassie. Dawn proceeds to eavesdrop on Cassie as she talks with her friend Mike, who has some interesting notions in the bodily mutilation department. Sexy snake hula girl? Hey, man, that's my cousin you're talking about! Mike wants to take Cassie to the Winter Formal, despite the fact that Winter Formals tend to be held in, oh, I don't know, winter and school just started a few episodes ago. In season three, Homecoming wasn't held until the fifth episode and here we are in episode four talking about the Winter Formal? These humans need to get in touch with their circadian rhythms. I suspect that the citizens of Sunnydale may, like the Grupponem, aestivate; perhaps they're just too woozy to look at the calendar.
The usual gang of idiots gathers around the computer; I can see by the lack of strategically-placed post-it note on the iBook that Steve Jobs's check didn't bounce this week. Willow demonstrates her commitment to the straight-and-narrow path of good by illegally hacking into school and police records; Buffy demonstrates her commitment to the straight-and-narrow path of good by freely passing around confidential medical records; Xander demonstrates his . . . Xander's just useless here. But he's not so useless in the next scene; no, when justice is on the move, Xander will be the chauffeur. Buffy's got a suspect, and she's not above abusing due process to threaten and cajole him on nothing more than a whim. Cassie's father is a bullet-headed, mouth-breathing, drunken redneck with a tendency to speak with his fists. Succubae and Incubi, put your appendages together for the most sympathetic father ever shown of Buffy!
Outside the house, Cassie pops out of the shadows to surprise Buffy and Xander she gives a little speech, which is worth repeating in full:Believe me, I want to be here, do things. I want to graduate from high school, and I want to go to this stupid winter formal. I have this friend and it would be fun to go with him just to dance and to hear lame music, to wear a silly dress and laugh and stuff. I'd like to go. There's a lot of stuff I'd like to do. I'd love to ice skate at Rockefeller Center. I'd love to learn to make tiramisu. I'd love to pay taxes and have a root canal. And I'd love to see my cousins grow up and see how they turn out 'cause they're really mean and I think they're gonna be fat. I'd love to wake up to the sound of my children laughing on Christmas morning. I'd love to be able to vote, and start out as a staunch Democrat, but find myself growing more and more reactionary the older I get. I'd love to backpack across the country, get picked up by a truck driver while hitchhiking on I-80, have to listen to his clumsy come-ons for four hundred miles, all the time wondering whether this wasn't the wisest choice I'd ever made. I'd love to get Alzheimer's, or break a hip, or have to do my dentistry by mail, or, I don't know, fall in love. But I won't. I just never will.
See? This is why we kill the animals: they've earned it.
And we cut to a mystic circle of red-robed figures setting fire to a brazier containing a picture of Cassie. Ooh. Ominous. Obviously, from the evidence of rituals past, these are all former lovers pitilessly dumped by Cassie, and they're summoning a vengeance demon to make the world as though she had never come to Sunnydale, which, as I'd never heard of her before this week, probably wouldn't be too big a pleat in the fabric of space-time. Speaking of vengeance demons, where is Anyanka? Wouldn't Cassie benefit from the power of the wish? "I wish I didn't have to die." "Wish granted. Poof. You're a rock. See, now you won't have to die, because rocks don't die, and I think this is a role more suited to your acting abilities anyway."
When we come back from commercials, Buffy is at her productively placed computer. She looks at Cassie's web site -- I just have to say that this girl is up to some programming tricks beyond that of our average expert technomancer. It's a shame she won't be around; I need someone to teach me how to do cascading style sheets. Besides far being beyond the HTML 4 For Dummies stage, Cassie also appears to be an excellent painter. Unfortunately, the expression of her artistic tendencies we become most familiar with is her poetry. Urrrrgh. It reminds me of the new circle of Hell we just opened where the damned must teach Freshman Creative Writing. Let me sum up Cassie's verse in haiku form:Cassie's a virgin,
Who is much deeper than you.
Can she die now, please?
And if that isn't enough to convince you that the hormonal self-importance of adolescent girls is not grounds for euthanizing the entire species, we get the mandatory Buffy/Spike basement scene, which will kick the estrogen into overdrive. Spike's still crazy, which would be interesting except that he is a homophilic maniac rather than a homicidal one. Blah, blah, blah. Yackety, yackety. And then something wonderful happens! Spike starts doing the "Dead Things" dance all by himself, pounding his own face with three walloping left crosses! The only thing that could make this scene any better would be if he had just enough of a spark of humanity in him to set off the chip! Mmmmm . . . that much self-loathing gets my tentacles all quivering!
Buffy and Principal Wood start searching random lockers, which yields an important clue. This is actually a auspicious piece of character development. One of my favorite episodes is "Gingerbread." (It's such a wonderful piece of misdirection! That's right, puny humans, your deepest fears are nothing but hysteria. Resist the impulse to give in to witch hunts and demonization. Meanwhile, I'll be under your bed with pruning shears and a blowtorch.) In "Gingerbread," random locker searches are shown to be definitely the tool of evil; here they're supposed to be on the side of goodness and niceness? In fact, I am pleased by the implications of Buffy's new employment. In the first three seasons, it was clear that high school was only a more institutionalized Hell; guess who's been issued a pitchfork! But I can't expect this to last. We have more than our share of litigators among us, but you needn't have made Law Review to realize that any high school that conducts unwarranted locker searches, employs an unlicensed counselor who assaults students and harasses parents, and maintains an unsecured gateway to Hell is about to be made some liability lawyer's class-action bitch.
Buffy reintroduces corporeal punishment to American public schooling. Dawn and Cassie become really good friends. Brad from Home Improvement gives Dawn a taste of what her social life will be like for the next three years. Cassie disappears, and we're back to the mystic circle, which has got its chant on. Brad reveals himself as the ringleader; they're trying to summon a demon so they can get "infinite riches." Ignoring the fact that we saw this all in "Reptile Boy," I'd just like to say that this Billionaire Boys Cult stuff is so 1980s. I mean, we've infiltrated the highest reaches of society -- the degradation caused by the demon N!Raun alone is staggering - like we're going to mess about with a bunch of high schoolers. Well, maybe at Philips Andover, maybe at Sidwell Friends, maybe even at a Country Day, but not at a public school. We have standards. Brad pulls the sacrifice from behind a bookcase. It's Cassie. Now, should any human who might be looking to raise a demon be reading this, do not offer me a sacrifice dressed in street clothes. The accepted dress code for sacrificial virgin is a satiny wisp of a loin cloth and some strategically-arranged chains, thank you very much. Just when Brad has the meat cleaver to Cassie's neck, who should cast off her robe but the Slayer. She kicks Brad about, taunting him correctly about the lameness of his summoning, when the demon Avilas appears behind her. I've seen that guy before! He's a hoofshine boy down at Disunion Station! He'll buff and polish your hooves for two bits of a martyr's spine! Infinite riches? Don't make me laugh. Well, you hold a low-rent summoning, you get a low-rent demon.
Chopsocky ensues. Spike shows up. He passes the torch to Buffy and then proceeds to pound on Brad, proving that he can work his way past the chip's stimuli. If only someone had gotten the boy some codeine when it might have meant something! Spike keeps saying, "I'm a bad man." Um, yeah. Scary. You're bad. Back in '87, Michael Jackson said the same thing. Saying it don't make it so.
Buffy takes the torch and jabs Avilas in the stomach. Avilas must be storing his polishes and some oily rags in his abdominals, because he goes up like a zeppelin demolition derby. A lot of the demons Buffy faces seem to be extremely flammable. If you should fit into this category, and you don't want to be kindling, the watchword is asbestos. Even if this doesn't ensure your victory over the Slayer, you can die with the pleasure of her certain respiratory problems in the years to come.
Well, asses to ashes, dork to dust. Meanwhile, bad, bad Leroy Spike frees Cassie, who says to him, "She'll tell you. Someday she'll tell you." But is she helpful? I mean, let's face it, in the annals of prophecy, this isn't exactly "You'll kill your father and marry your mother." Even if we assume that the pronoun refers to Buffy, we have all sorts of possibilities.- "Spike, I just have to tell you, your fly is open."
- "Spike! I'm so excited I'm telling everyone! Clem popped the question!"
- "Spike, not brushing your teeth for a hundred and twenty years - not the way to a girl's heart."
The demon bites Brad before exploding, and Buffy just leaves him to dirty the carpet. On the way out, Buffy stops a crossbow bolt from perforating Cassie's skull. "See, you can make a difference," Buffy says. (A difference between a four and a seven course meal, Slayer.) "You will," says Cassie, who then drops dead. I must admit that I shed a scale when Cassie died. I wish she had stuck around. With that adenoidal voice, when she and Willow started trading baby-talk, Buffy would just drop dead from embarrassment.
The Scoobies sum up:I failed her.
You didn't because you tried. You listened and you tried. She didn't die because of her heart, not 'cause of you. She was my friend 'cause of you. I guess you can't help.
So what do you do when you know that? When you know that maybe you can't help.
Well, for starters, Buffy, you prepare your flayed skin to be the placemats at the larvae's table in my dining hall. All in all, I am very pleased by this episode and in fact by Season 7 in general. Never has the Slayer amassed such a record of failure and futility. In "Lessons," she can kill the manifest spirits, but she is unable to figure out who summoned them. (Being able to tie together a couple of sticks . . . that's the brainpower which outwits the Slayer?) In "Beneath You," she is able to undo Anya's spell, but she knows that Ronnie was better off as a worm. In, "Same Time, Same Place," she can kill Gnarl (whose nose, by the way, definitely means, "Yes, I am happy to see you" in Dwallgoth), but the mystical disappearing act that had her flummoxed is nothing but the effect of Willow's distrust of herself and of Buffy. And in "Help," she can't save one putrid little human life. Plus, all this time, she's turning into Principal Snyder. The Earth is practically ours already. All that's left is the bookkeeping. I'll call R!Thyr N!Durzyn.
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OMG. The rocking, oh the rocking. I am expanding my Pantheon ;) -- pr10n, 13:45:55 10/18/02 Fri
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Very evil.....but no fashion!! -- Rahael, 13:47:45 10/18/02 Fri
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While I bask and frolic in the arterial spray of your wit... -- ponygoyle, 14:00:46 10/18/02 Fri
I have to ask, where was the fashion analysis? Not even a mention of the endless parade prophetically stainable white Buffy shirts. Some of us look to the fashion section of these reviews to help us to know when to shred the clothing of our victims along with the flesh in one swipe of the claws, or to take the time and rescue a few of the less obvious Prada knock-offs for bacchanals and such. Because of your gross oversight I have no choice but to join with Honorificus' forces and flay your worthless corpse. Other than that great work!
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Fashion review -- d'Horrible, 14:25:14 10/18/02 Fri
While my review was not without its sartorial criticism (and I quote, "The accepted dress code for a sacrificial virgin is a satiny wisp of a loin cloth and some strategically-arranged chains, thank you very much"), I must say that there was no fashion analysis here because the episode contained no fashion. I mean, Buffy goes through a succession of ruffly sleeves, except in her first interview, when she wears a shirt liberated from the rodeo, ably matched by Xander's red plaid cowboy clown shirt in the cemetary scene. Willow wears a brown/gray camouflage type thingy that should help her blend in at the cesspools of Niflheim. Cassie looks as though she dressed while a tornado went through the thrift store, and the orange and brown thing Mike wears is why we are fighting the war against humanity in the first place. Without Anyanka, you just cannot count on a show like Buffy for any sense of taste or style.
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That's what I was looking for! Was that really so hard? -- ponygoyle still with the flaying but just 'cause, 14:57:57 10/18/02 Fri
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I still want to flay him. Do you still want to flay him? -- Honorificus (The Sweetly Adorable One), 18:14:11 10/18/02 Fri
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Re: Fashion review -- Sophie, 13:54:13 10/19/02 Sat
I usually garb my sacrificial virgins in white gowns of gossamer.
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Woo-hoo! Who's eviler than you? NO one!! -- Whipwoman, 14:05:54 10/18/02 Fri
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Loved it! -- heart of bat, 14:22:28 10/18/02 Fri
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I bow before your greatness! Honorificus who? -- The Lady Darkness, 14:49:08 10/18/02 Fri
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You need a reminder? -- Honorificus (The Inexorable, the Irresistable), 18:06:04 10/18/02 Fri
A reminder you shall have. You'll remember me when your spawn are stolen from you and then hung, skinless, on the walls of your domicile!
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I think someone's jealous. -- Apophis, 18:30:27 10/18/02 Fri
Don't worry, Honorificus, you'll always have a place in my heart... if I could just find the damn thing...
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Give me a place in your spleen, and we'll call it even. -- Honorificus (The All-Natural, Organic One), 19:24:41 10/18/02 Fri
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You call *that* a review? -- Honorificus (She of the Incisive Mind and Mindful Incisors), 15:55:58 10/18/02 Fri
Pfft! My neighbor Sluthgor's pet imp could have churned that out, given time and a few electroshock treatments. You must be tired from all that name-dropping and self-aggrandizement. Why don't you kick back with a nice holy water cocktail?
Next week, I'm taking back the reins. The Nine Unspeakable Curses be upon the heads of those who fouled up my VCR!
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I fervently pray for the honor of dying at your hand, d'Horrible. -- Apophis, 15:57:25 10/18/02 Fri
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( ) (I'm Speechless.) -- Medusa, 20:13:17 10/18/02 Fri
My snakes wrote a charming essay comparing Help with Reptile Boy, and they all agreed that a fashionista demon-in-training like Cordelia was sorely missed. What's the point of sacrificing someone who would have incited her own murder with the drone of her voice anyway?
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Rebuttal from WereWolfhowl3 -- Werewolfhowl3, 20:32:37 10/18/02 Fri
Hooooowwwwwwlllllll!!!!!!
Translation: Very Funny
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my worship of you is boundless, d'Horrible, most hellish one... -- Le Fey, 22:15:13 10/18/02 Fri
...however, I most continue in the adoration of her Most Glittery and Cuter-than-me-in-that-outiftness, Honorificus, else she reduce me to lowly hobbit status. Though to fawn and debase myself at her feet is an unholy blessing, I rather like not having leprosy.
On to the review...
How I longed to see Anyanka's veiny visage! With Spike continuing to play the hero (he's even worse than Angelus was!), we demons had a depressingly poor showing. And what was Morty thinking?! It's bad enough his cousin Skip is working for THEM, but now he's answering calls to give high school boys untold riches?!? *shakes head* Impending apocalypse or not, we are living in sad days, assorted fell-folk.
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That's more like it. -- Honorificus (The Ever-So-Appreciative One), 00:23:33 10/19/02 Sat
All this fawning wasted upon d'Horrible was beginning to sicken me. Good to see *some* demons have their priorities straight.
Incidentally, Le Fey, you brought up a point I had wanted to see addressed. When I saw the previews, I thought I recognized Morty. This really shows how far that family has fallen--Skip working for THEM, his sister Kit not far behind (Did you hear she'd defected? A perfectly good Harpy, gone to waste!), and now Morty working for a bunch of half-assed conjurers! And to think of the iron grip they kept on Skaldelfheim for ages. The Matriarch and I used to have tea together.
Oh, well. That's the way the bone breaks, as my good friend Screwtape used to say.
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I live to grovel, Oh Deliciously Wicked One -- Le Fey, 01:43:26 10/19/02 Sat
Kit's defected too?? Great hells, we're all going to heaven in a handbasket. Kit and I were in school together...we did a group project in Advanced Evisceration...got to practice on the rest of the students. Ah, youth...
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More! More! I'm still not satisfied!!!!!! -- Sophie (suffering from too much morning coffee), 06:10:53 10/19/02 Sat
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Re: Super-Evil Review of 7.4 "Help" (There is *no such thing* as a Spoiler) -- LittleBite "On your feet you fools! No groveling in public", 10:08:42 10/19/02 Sat
I will however give an appreciative nod to d'Horrible for actually giving us an analysis (unlike some other demon, yes, you, Honori) and saving me the trouble. You've done an excellent job of cataloguing the rampant goodness that seems to be infesting Sunni Suny S... oh, Boca del Fierno. Evil Hells! What has happened to the Hellmouth!! It might just as well be an infant spawn with a pacifier for all the evil it seems to be attracting. I think I'll send a little note to Beelzy to look into it.
By the way, I do hope you had permission from Quomindurang to 'out' him. N!Raun and R!Thyr N!Durzyn are now pretty much out of the picture, but Quomi is still doing well.
Did anyone else appreciate that they built the summoning circle with the enhancement star right into the design of the new library floor? Someone was doing his job!
I will admit, though, to rather enjoying the punishment Lucifer instructed Fee {that's First Evil, FE or Fee for short) to inflict on Spike. Maybe this will be a little object lesson to any other fool who thinks a soul has meaning.
And I really must agree with you on one thing: "Insipid antics, insane caterwaulings." Was I the only one who didn't know they were doing another bone-jarringly grotesque musical episode?
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*Sniff* Well, some of us have our priorities straight. -- Honorificus (The Truly Magnificent One), 10:28:59 10/19/02 Sat
His fashion review could've been done by *shudder* Joan Rivers for all the interest in it. Hmph. And no rating on the Non Sequitur Scale. You complain about what demonkind is coming to, and then just go and *ignore* that? My devils, woman, you might as well expect him to rate it on a nonsensical 1-10 scale! Keep one eye out for lurking eviscerators. Just my advice.
Oh, and can we have the book club at your place this week? In my fury over my VCR confounding me, I rather destroyed mine. The minions are still rebuilding.
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Re: Straightening Honori's priorities -- LittleBite (The Not Impressed One), 14:05:35 10/19/02 Sat
I would be delighted to have the book club at my place this week. Do you recall which book club we're having for dinner? I want to be certain my cook has the correct spices. And, speaking of which, do you know if any headway has been made in getting the Oprah book club? I was hoping for a special Thankstaking dinner, but it's beginning to look as if it will delayed until the following month.
And Honori, really! Lurking eviscerators? A blind quadroclops blundering around would spot one of those.
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It's merely symbolic, dearest. -- Honorificus (The Socially-Adept), 18:50:21 10/19/02 Sat
Face it, you'd be insulted if I didn't attempt *some* sort of retribution. Would you prefer Diggler the Defenestrator? I could engage him, if you wish.
The book club is a Self-Help group. They tend to be a tad on the rich side, so tell your chefs to stay away from cream sauces. Perhaps a nice, light pesto? We're still working on the Oprah club, but it's only, I assure you, a matter of time.
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Re: Super-Evil Review of 7.4 "Help" (Absolutely NO SPOILERS! C'mon! Trust the evil thing!) -- Saguaro Stalker, 15:07:06 10/19/02 Sat
Boy, are you in trouble! No fashion review? If Azrahael doesn't get you, that Rahael will. You left out their favorite part! It'll be a cold night in the lower hells for sure.
Be that as it may, though we all miss Honorificus (the disgustingly pulchritudinous one, the how-the-heck-did-she-get-in-the-demons'-union-looking-like-that one), I must say you've written a truly insightful review. Just let me add some annoying non sequiturs, so everyone will appreciate how bad it could have been.
First of all, Michael Jackson? I thought he was bad long before he ever came up with that song, and not in an evil way. My Mum's Turkish and my Dad's a Kraut and I'm still blacker than he is, both in the face and in the heart.
Second, 'someday she'll tell you?' I don't think it was nice of Cassie to bring up Spikes G.O. (grave odor) at such a cheery moment. How often do you get to say something really cool just before you drop dead? Not very often unless you're Buffy. How about something evil like, "Oh, handsome stranger, there is one thing I'd rather do than have sex with you. And this is it!... (Thud)
Finally, why are you picking on Home Improvement?" The show is an example of how life should be. The show demonstrates that no matter how dense and obnoxious you are, everything you touch can still blow up in your face, and that you'll still probably be stuck working forever beside some fat guy named Al in checked shirt who's cooler than you.
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Best review yet! LMAO!! -- shadowdemon, 20:25:13 10/19/02 Sat
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Sure, if you like loquacity and pseudo-intellectual obfuscation. -- Honorificus (The Appealingly Laconic One), 20:51:23 10/19/02 Sat
No, I *don't* have an attitude problem! Sheesh!
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ohhh meant to say of HELP! not of the series, didn't mean to ruffle scales ;-) -- shadowdemon, 21:13:43 10/19/02 Sat
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Don't pay any attention to her. -- HonorH (the sane one), 22:42:07 10/19/02 Sat
She's been moping all week. I let her out in Chat tonight, and it seems to have cheered her up. With any luck, she'll stay put until it's time to do the review of this Tuesday's ep.
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Re: Don't pay any attention to her. -- Sophie, 11:59:01 10/20/02 Sun
Its quite understandable considering her VCR troubles. Hopefully the plagues of all our recent VCR troubles will be gone this week!
Sophie
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Re: Sure, if you like loquacity and pseudo-intellectual obfuscation. -- Hippopotomonstrosequipedalia, 14:33:36 10/20/02 Sun
Big words come from big mouths, so those of us who use big words can bite just that much bigger. Beware! Beware!
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Spell it right, fool -- Hippopotomonstrosesquipedalia, 14:41:29 10/20/02 Sun
To reiterate, I'm Hippopotomonstrosesquipedalia
One of you other demonic types infected my typing finger, didn't you? 'Fess up.
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Re: Spell it right, fool -- Sophomorica, 15:04:38 10/20/02 Sun
Must have been the diluted acid that I spilled on your keyboard in my drunken stupor last night.
[going out to terrorize subway riders]
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