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[> There are two threads below by Miss Edith and alcibiades that discuss your concerns. -- Caroline, 11:29:16 10/09/02 Wed

[> Re: I agree. -- Miss Edith, 11:47:27 10/09/02 Wed

Buffy doesn't have to love Spike or even be overtly nice to him but Spike deserves to be shown some respect. Her little quips sounded awful in the context they were used and made Buffy seem very callous. In high school the scoobies as the heros were outsiders who showed compassion for others, and did not look down upon them. Cordy would have been the type to sneer at Spike stinking.
I am personally disturbed by the indication that Spike smells. I see it as him having lost all pride in himself and his appearance. It disturbs me and I feel compassion for what he's going through. Seeing Buffy take cheap shots at him is not what I would have expected. Particularly as last season Riley and a random vampire indicated Buffy stunk to the high heavens when she was working at DMP and Spike had the decency not to mention this, let alone snigger about it with his demon buddies. I guess Spike in his low moment in life needs to start taking care of himself as no one else seems willing to offer a helping hand.
I can't understand why more people weren't offended by Buffy's attitude to be honest. Spike did something miraculous. He went out and sought for his missing piece of humanity. After seeing Spike aspire to be good it makes me grit my teeth when he is used as a personal convienience and Buffy feels free to make glib, shallow comments. It was just plain mean-spirited and reflected very poorly on Buffy. Particularly as she was taking advantage of Spike's offer to help in BY at the same time as she was insulting him.
I am mostly disapointed because I would have thought the very least we could have expected from the hero is that she can dig up from within herself that tiny vestige of common humanity that would enable her to recognise and honour the struggling and besieged spark of humanity in Spike. I was hoping at some point we would see Buffy come up with the compassion and generosity to lend him a helping hand in that battle. That is why her behaviour stung for me personally. I was foolishly expecting better from the hero of the show.

[> [> Agree about DMP. I just wrote a post saying the same thing down below. -- alcibiades, 12:31:00 10/09/02 Wed

[> [> I totally, vehemently, whole-hearted disagree and repudiate... -- funny_syphilis_guy, 12:53:29 10/09/02 Wed

Look Spike waltzes back into Sunnydale fresh off an attempted rape knowing that emotions and tension are going to be running (seeming a couple months ago a Scoobie went apocalyptically AWOL, rambling insanely, living on rats, where am I going with this...don't expect a parade and "seventy-six bloody trombones mate."

Let's keep some perspective. The same night he and Buffy had their little Confab, he went a few rounds with her. And let's not forget that making little jokes at people's expense (and these little jokes have been blown WAY OUT of proportion in your calls for boycotting)is often a way that human's deal with tight situations. So buffy seems a little cold. Her most recent snog is the Vamp in Sunnydale with a tailored Straight-Jack, and her best friend, well she have gone offf the magic-sobriety wagon and back to some good old flaying. CUT HER SOME SLACK. Give the girl time. Remember she may be the slayer, but she's the Hand, not the Heart, don't expect her to be Xander.

And speaking of Xander, I thought the most eye-opening comment the Buff one made was the whole "or we could do something intellegent."

Which brings me to another point. Reduces the scoobies to just X and D, and someone has to do some wisecracking, some of things that OZ, Cordy, Giles, Tara, Spike, Angel and Riley might've said in the past still have to get said.

[> [> [> Re: I totally, vehemently, whole-hearted disagree and repudiate... -- Miss Edith, 13:05:33 10/09/02 Wed

Who said anything about boycotting? I don't expect a parade to be thrown for Spike. If you take a closer look at my post you will see that I said that I dont expect Buffy to be overtly nice to Spike. I was just disapointed that she didn't show him any concern at all or even basic courtesy. When I expect someone to help mwe out I don't laugh behing their back about how much they stink.
I do find it inconsistent that last week Buffy had tears streaming down her face and she was crying for Spike, and this week she is making jokes about putting a leash on him.

"It's all about the Bastanada" (Buffy Season 7, spoilers, observations, baseless conjectures) -- funny_syphilis_guy, 11:13:16 10/09/02 Wed

Am I crazy or is a definite pattern taking shape.

Episode 7:1

Running Girl #1 is killed by "monks" in Istanbul Turkey.

Principle Wood "jokes":

"the only three things these kids understand is the bat, the boot, and the Bastanada."

**The Bastanada being, as Buffy points out, a wooden rod used for torture and discipline in "TURKISH prisons".**

Episode 7:2

Running Girl #2 killed in identical fashion by monks Frankfurt Germany. Germany being the country with the second largest TURKISH population in the world. Over 20 million Turks by most estimates.

Anya turns Ronnie into a Sluggoth Demon, Spike comments:

"A natural predator, they went out around the CRUSADES"

Sundry Hints:

Upcoming Angel Episode titled "Slouching Toward Jerusalem"

A clear allusion to W.B. Yeats Poem "The Second Coming" which ends, as everyone knows, "What rough beast, its hour come round at last, slouches towards BETHLEHEM waiting to be born." (personal note, kudos to the writers, possibly Joss, for picking a verse from an Irish Poet, Liam of Gallway would be proud)

the Poet also says

"Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
Troubles my sight."

"Spiritus Mundi" = Spirit of the Earth, so I'm thinking definite Hellmouth connections, not to mention that this is the same poem that Tara quotes in (I think) "As You Were" "Things fall apart/the center does not hold." What does this mean? We see as through a glass darkly.

My conjectures based on these loose threads:

What ever is coming it is very old. I am thinking that those girls that died, lets say there was more than to them that meets the eye.

We are being led to assume that they are innocents or even slayers-to-be that are being killed. Maybe. But maybe they are not innocents. Maybe the monks that killed them were sworn to do so, a long time ago, say, around the crusades?

I think it is possibly that AC, The Anti-Christ, The Man of Perdition, could be putting in an appearence in Sunnydale this Fall.

I think the girls are being killed because becuase they are perhaps in cahoots, perhaps priestesses of Proserpexa whose name by the by means something like "for the serpent." A reference to the Big D (no, not the Dallas Cowboys, the other bringer of oblivion).

Of course it could be that I am stark raving mad. But even if I am, I am certain the Bastanada/Istanbul thing is too convenient to be a coincidence.

What role will Wood play? His name Wood (as in the cross) and Robin (as in Robin of Locksley, famous Crusader, and Champion) suggests a good one. I think maybe he belongs to the same order as the monk. All we need to no now is, which side are the monks on?

[> Angel ep title spoiler in above -- S, 11:52:39 10/09/02 Wed

[> [> Sorry I missed that, thanks for the catch!!! -- funny_syphilis_guy, 12:12:06 10/09/02 Wed

[> I think you're on to something -- Scroll, 13:26:43 10/09/02 Wed

Also, there was a thread a while back about Anya and the Crimean war, which took place near/in Turkey and involved Constantinople (I'm not sure how).

As for the Angel episode title, I think there are definitely parallels that Joss is drawing between the two shows. Spike and Angel's humanity vs. their vampirism, for one. Wesley and Willow's need to reintegrate with their "families" for another. Dawn and Connor as troubled teens who are trying to figure out their identities. Can't wait to see how it all ends up...

[> *singing along* -- "Blame it on the Bastinada..." -- dub ;o), 17:37:20 10/09/02 Wed

[> [> LOL -- gds, 22:22:34 10/09/02 Wed

"Same Time, Same Place"--the Super-Evil Review (Spoilers? Why do you ask?) -- Honorificus (The Tasty Treat), 12:09:46 10/09/02 Wed

Mood: irked. No girl getting killed to start the show off, no annoying little creatures getting eaten (except Willow, and not completely), no Giles, and no handsome principal. What a waste.

Fashion Statements
The Good
Dawn's shirt in the opening sequence. Good look for her, very flattering.

Willow's rock star look with the ruffly shirt, black pants, and leather jacket. I know, I know, but it gives me hope.

The invisible look for both Willow and the Scoobies. We could do with more of that.

Not strictly fashion, per se, but who didn't love that couch? The upholstry could use some help, but what a couch!

Pajamas! I love pajamas.

The Bad
Buffy's dress-over-jeans. It was never a good idea in the first place, and whoever decided Buffy needed to sport that look should be shot.

Spike's tortured look is getting tired. Put that boy in some leather, stat!

Buffy's black top. Hated it. Especially with the bolo necklace.

The Iffy
Anya: her wardrobe was better this week, but still isn't up to code. The blue knit top/gray pants ensemble wasn't nearly so vile as the last two looks she sported, but frankly, I found it kind of tame. And the shoes simply didn't go. Furthermore, the white blouse she wore in the second half was . . . not. Its only virtue was that it exposed her belly a bit, and Anya's belly should be exposed. And was she wearing a hairpiece?

Plot in a Nutshell
Willow comes home but gets so heebie-jeebie that she makes herself fail to exist for the Scoobies and vice-versa. There's also a skin-eating demon about. Dawn gets paralyzed, Willow gets tortured, and everyone gets forgiven. Bleah.

Highlights
Dawn cheerfully researching demons. It was almost endearing. If she truly is getting scary, I might even forgive the little twerp her cuteness.

Spike carrying on two conversations at once. That can't be good for his mental health, such as it is.

Willow/Anya subtext. Hmm!

Dawn getting paralyzed.

Willow getting flayed. It's the little things, y'know?

Buffy going thumbs-deep in demon. Fun!

Lowlights
Willow and Anya being civil to each other. Where's the fun in that?

Anya and her job depression. You know, they made Buffy go through this last year, so maybe it's just Anya's turn. It's hard, returning to the fold, and I do feel for her, I really do. I just hate watching it. And the Scoobies are so completely unsympathetic! They're not supportive of her demonhood at all--they even asked her to look after Posable Dawn! Here she is, getting censured by her higher-ups (and may I just say, good on you, D'Hoffryn!), and all they're concerned about is one little skin-eating demon. I hope Halfrek shows up and starts giving Anyanka support soon, because I just hate watching her go through this alone.

All the bonding at the end! Gyeeuh! I was about to hurl! I haven't felt that sick since the end of "Grave." Insulin, stat!

Burning Questions
Why is Giles meeting with the WC?

Are the basement halls really shifting?

Do the Scoobies know about Spike's soul?

Will they get Spike a dog collar?

And a nice bowl to drink blood out of?

If the basement is "No Student Access," why don't they keep the doors locked?

Re: the Willow/Anya subtext: will we now have Willya?

Or, since Spike/Anyanka was Spankya, will Willow/Anyanka be (censored by HonorH)?

Demonic Quibbles
This is where I'll address their weekly screwing up with demons. Gnarl, for instance. Who does their research? Gnarls are much larger, and they most certainly do *not* sound like Gollum on Prozac. More like Harvey Fierstein having a bad lung day. The eye thing was pretty accurate, though.

OTOH, the teleportation thing was right on. It's not unlike a demon lord to restrict his underlings' movements when they displease him. Personally, I'd have gone for torture, but D'Hoffryn's kind of an old softy. I'll forgive him for that.

Overall Rating
5 over "nyeh" with a shade of purple on the Non Sequitur Scale. The Willow-torture managed to save this one, but only just.

[> Answers for burning questions -- Saguaro Stalker, 13:18:49 10/09/02 Wed

Why is Giles in the WC? Well, those who eat and drink must... Huh? That wasn't the question?

Are the basement halls really shifty? Yeah, they got them beady little conduit thingies.

Why would anyone care about Spike's soul? Sorry, I have no idea.

Will they get Spike a dog collar? Only if he starts scratching his ear with his foot.

And a nice bowl to drink blood out of? A grubby cat would provide more nurishment.

If the basement is "No Student Access," why don't they keep the doors locked? Hey, if they really wanted to keep students out a "Chess Club Meets Here" sign would work better than any lock.

Re: the Willow/Anya subtext: will we now have Willya? Buffy and Willow are holding hands and you're worried about Willya?

Or, since Spike/Anyanka was Spankya, will Willow/Anyanka be (censored by HonorH)? If Spike and Xander start holding hands I'm switching to Gilmore Girls

[> [> Re: Answers for burning questions -- MaeveRigan, 13:47:33 10/09/02 Wed

"Or, since Spike/Anyanka was Spankya, will Willow/Anyanka be (censored by HonorH)?"

No need to censor. Because the answer is either a catty Anyow, or a mere whiny Wanya.

That 'ship will *never* sail.

[> [> Re: Answers for burning questions -- demonshadow, 16:56:06 10/09/02 Wed

"If Spike and Xander start holding hands I'm switching to Gilmore Girls"

Hey I was holding out for Spander!

[> [> [> Re: Answers for burning questions -- ponygoyle, 16:59:03 10/09/02 Wed

I'm looking forward to an episode where Giles travels through time to hook up with his younger badass self. Yes, I'm a Gipper shipper!

[> [> [> "Spider" works just as well. -- Honorificus (The Most Philological One), 16:59:18 10/09/02 Wed

As for Willow/Anyanka, I was thinking more in the realms of Wankya, but HonorH wouldn't let me put that in the review. Flying under her radar here. Having a simpering goody-goody alter ego is *such* a bummer, y'know?

[> [> [> Re: Answers for burning questions -- Cleanthes, 19:26:40 10/09/02 Wed

If Spike and Xander start holding hands I'm switching to Gilmore Girls"

Hey I was holding out for Spander!

Xikes!

[> Re: "Same Time, Same Place"--the Super-Evil Review (Spoilers? Why do you ask?) -- aliera, 14:11:28 10/09/02 Wed

OK... I give up! Reading your stuff at work is not a good idea...Spike is not the only one getting looks...thanks again for these...they're great.

[> Bowing down before Honorificus, who has her priorities straight -- Rahael, 15:42:58 10/09/02 Wed

Finally! A review where I get the fashion analysis first!!!

Keep 'em coming!

Rahael, being completely serious. Should I admit this?

[> I look forward to someday feasting on your brain to absorb your knowledge! Great work -- ponygoyle, 16:56:44 10/09/02 Wed

[> [> That is *so* Ano-Movic! -- Honorificus (The Pert-Nosed and Perky-Breasted One), 17:02:45 10/09/02 Wed

They're out of fashion, you know. I mean, really, their portrayal on "Angel" (with the bachelor party--remember?) was almost accurate. Why don't you go with something a little more today? Are you one of those lucky species (like me) who can suck mental energy?

[> [> [> Well, I've certainly been known to suck the energy out of a room -- ponygoyle a sucker for the classics, 17:06:34 10/09/02 Wed

[> The Super-Evil Review Reviewed (I didn't ask) -- LittleBite, 17:52:03 10/09/02 Wed

Once again, I'll address the real issues as I see them.

First, let's take a look at Willow. The prodigal daughter returning home. I realize she's done some serious backsliding from last spring, but I must say that creating an entire dimension out of phase with everyone except the demons merely by thinking it was the way she wanted things to be was sheer genius!! There is so much potential for mischief here if she continues to worry about how others perceive her that I am almost hoping she doesn't come back to the fold. Her ability to create chaos in a completely offhand manner simply by thinking about things should prove most amusing in the weeks to come.

And how about Dawn? From the looks of things it won't be long before she becomes quite the little hacker. And we all know how Willow got her start down the path of endarkenment, don't we? A little illegal hacking here, a little breaking and entering there, and before you knew it our favorite flamehead was soaking up the magic. And how far behind is Dawn? Already she has successfully completed a spell to reanimate her mother (even if she chickened out and broke it) and she has done a little kitten burglary, with some help from Spike to get into the Magic Shop. Not to mention that little acquisitive phase she went through. Get this girl on the Web and they may never have to worry about finances again. And perhaps she'll start doing a little extra-curricular research into a few things she shouldn't be learning. We can hope. She's young yet, there's still time. I'm certain that being treated like a big Barbie doll didn't make her a happy camper. And then leaving her alone, totally paralyzed? I'm hoping our Dawn is thinking up suitable payback as we speak.

Anyanka. What can I say? This girl needs some serious help to keep her on the wrong path. There's just too much chance for those interfering humans to continue infecting our girl with their foolish notions of 'right' and 'wrong', of 'ethics' and 'morality'. And what has it gotten her? Does any of her feeble attempts to win their respect or friendship work? I say no. They'll act like she's accepted when they think there's something to gain. Willow is willing to request Anyanka's assistance when Willow needed something. And what happens? Willow burns a hole in her carpet and doesn't even have the manners to apologize; Willow all but orders her to teleport (and yes, the censure was well-deserved and less than it should be). Xander and Buffy didn't hesitate to call her to come watch over Dawn, or to make her come with them into danger just because she has information that they don't. Anyanka, darlin', forget about them! They're beneath you, just step on the bugs and move on. You're still d'Hoffryn's favorite.

And Xander. Don't get me started. From his pathetic yellow crayon sign to his Once-More-Without-Interest rendition of "Did you see me; I Saved the World with My Mouth" he makes bid after bid for someone to please elevate him from Zeppo status. It is fun, though, to see all his efforts go for naught. Even Spike (who will be addressed later) recognizes, in his madness, that all he is is the Slayer's boy. The only thing he has going for him (if one could call it that) is his sappy, syrupy, love-you-all attitude that the goody-goodies seem to like.

Next we have Spike. William. Spike with a s...s... [take deep breath and type it] ...soul. William the Bloody. And a cast of thousands. When last seen he was resting in a most non-restful spot. Now he's just a toy in the hands of the Hellmouth. So many things going on in our boy's head he doesn't know what's real and what's not. Like Anyanka who is able to see everyone, Spike also sees everyone, but he no longer seems to know what is real and what is not. I truly believe that any demon who curses one of our own with a soul seriously needs to have his methods and motives examined. Especially one who was truly a warrior of his kind. I can but hope that this is part of a greater plan for reclaiming the world as our own, and that Spike will be his old self again when it is all over. Perhaps this is his punishment for even contemplating the possibilities of a soul, and a lasting relationship with the greatest enemy our kind has ever faced.

Speaking of whom, let's take a look at the Slayer. Buffy certainly runs the gamut here, from thinking Willow may have been the one who flayed the corpse they found to offering her strength to Willow for healing; from her horror at seeing Dawn slashed and poisoned to putting the remote control in posable Dawn's hand, and leaving her there. She uses Spike as a bloodhound, with or without his consent, to track the demon. She has a wicked sense of humor, though, too bad she's supposed to be a 'white hat' [shudder].

And finally, the Gnarl demon. As Honori says, they are much larger than that. I can only surmise that it was decided that the true demon would be too much for the Slayer (a quite reasonable surmise, by the way, I've met Gnarls) and they chose to represent one that the Slayer could defeat, assuming no one would know the difference. Don't they ever read their mail? However, I will admit that the shadow hand was a terrific effect, quite delightfully chilling. And the skin treats? Did anyone else's mouth just water? My only question was where's the cheese and salsa?

And so passes another week, without even an opening death chase. No one representing the demonic viewers, once again. We'll just have to wait until next week to see if true evil can make it's way into Sunnydale.

[> [> Ah, Little Bite, my unsouled-sister! -- Honorificus (The One, the Few, the Many), 19:08:09 10/09/02 Wed

You and I see things much the same way (aside from fashion issues, but I can live with that if you can).

Yes, indeed, our Willow does seem to be creating chaos just by existing. I so very much miss Ethan Rayne! Imagine what he could do with someone like her around! What I dearly hope is that Willow will "accidentally" tap into the Twerp's energy, thereby unleashing destruction upon all.

Or, it occurs to me, perhaps it could go the other way. The Twerp might discover her own power, and then by tapping into Willow's much-vaunted "connection," she herself could become the gateway through which the Four Horsemen gallop.

I'm glad to see we agree upon Anyanka. The poor dear needs serious help, and soon, or she'll end up wearing a white hat with her bad outfits, and that would be *such* a waste. A crying shame, really. So much destructive power lying dormant--it could make one weep acid.

Agree on the Zeppo. He needs to die. Buffy, too. "Sharing" her strength--gag me! I hope Willow drains her dry.

[> BASH! ROAR! Grr ARGH! (smash tinkle) -- Bizarro Rochefort, 20:49:06 10/09/02 Wed

[> [> Down, boy! -- Honorificus (The Wild and Wonderful), 22:17:15 10/09/02 Wed

Am I going to have to call in my minions, or will you settle yourself before you break something important? Or before I break something you'd find important?

[> Hail Honorificus, O Honey-glazed-with-a-side-order-of-rice-pilaf One -- The Unclean (packing for vacation), 22:57:08 10/09/02 Wed

Sorry, didn't catch the episode this week. I'm going on vacation, and my mate is driving me insane. She's stripping the burrow bare and we're only going for nine days. Excuse me...

("No! No, we do NOT need the Carpathian Battle Axe!...Why? Do you REALLY think we'll run into a Slayer at your mother's house?")

Sigh. Yes, it's my annual trip to the in-laws, where they will taunt me about my substandard kill ratio, my failure to rise in the priesthood of Ialdaboth, and bewail the absence of little hatchlings for them to feed any spare parts they have lying around the house. It will be nine days of pain, misery, and humiliation.

No wonder I look forward to it every year.

And what about your vacation, Honorificus? Last year, you told me you and your consorts (what is it now, six or seven--I lose track) might hit that new resort in downtown Gehenna. I've heard the sulfur pits are spectacular....

[> Re: "Same Time, Same Place"--the Super-Evil Review (Spoilers? Why do you ask?) -- Rufus, 02:55:52 10/10/02 Thu

Buffy's dress-over-jeans. It was never a good idea in the first place, and whoever decided Buffy needed to sport that look should be shot.

I hated that one too....it looks like she had to leave the house mid coin toss over what to wear.

Spike carrying on two conversations at once. That can't be good for his mental health, such as it is.

Wait a minute....I do that all the time....;)

Dawn getting paralyzed.

I liked the poseable Dawn....specially the squeak she made when she fell over.

[> Re: "Same Time, Same Place"--the Super-Evil Review (Spoilers? Why do you ask?) -- Ete, 04:25:24 10/10/02 Thu

"Will they get Spike a dog collar?"

Only if it's leather.

[> Re: "Same Time, Same Place"--the Super-Evil Review (Spoilers? Why do you ask?) -- Rob, 10:21:31 10/10/02 Thu

"Posable Dawn!"

LOL! I'm surprised nobody renamed her "Gumby."

Rob

Name That Quote game - Round 7 answers -- obaomaboe, 12:11:22 10/09/02 Wed

Jordan is up to 8 pts; Miss Edith is up to 98.


Nobody knew:

2) She was talking to Tara.

4) Buffy was talking to Giles.

5) Angel talking to the horse in Judgment.

6) They were taking the career aptitude tests in Part 1, not part 2.

10) Drusilla said this to the little boy in Lie to Me who said he wasn't supposed to talk to people.


The rest of the answers:

1) "You think I don't smell the humanity inside me day and night - polluting me?"
Angel, Scourge demon, Hero
Miss Edith

2) "Great! I mean... Fine. I'm, I'm ... finey McFine. Fine."
Willow, Tara, Older and Far Away
Jordan, nobody answered, Jordan (close enough)

3) "What's next? Vampire cowboy? Vampire fireman? Oh, vampire ballerina."
Spike, Angel, In the Dark
Miss Edith

4) "Who could resist Sunnydale's own house of hormones?"
Buffy, Giles, Phases (about the Bronze)
Jordan, nobody answered, Jordan

5) "Try not to make me look stupid out there, okay?"
Angel, a Horse, Judgement
nobody answered

6) "I came down on the side of shrubs."
Willow, Buffy, What's My Line 1
Miss Edith, Miss Edith, nobody answered

7) "Oh, you are so prosaic."
Angel, Penn, Somnambulist
Miss Edith

8) "I can't really drink beer, 'cause you know, barley."
Sophie, Willow, Older and Far Away
Miss Edith

9) "If we had a flame-thrower we could set the table on fire. Draw a little
*more* attention to us."
Gunn, AI gang, Belonging
Miss Edith

10) "I'm not a person"
Drusilla, little boy, Lie to Me
nobody answered

[> Re: O/T Birds of Prey Debut (**Spoilers** for BoP) -- Apophis, 19:34:41 10/09/02 Wed

If you want to read the comic (which is often very good, by the way), you'll find that it's not much like the show. I haven't seen the whole thing yet, but I do know this: Huntress' costume looks ridiculous (and if a college-aged male can say that about tight leather and cleavage, you know something's wrong).
P.S.- A lot of the WB's shows have BtVS elements in them. Perhaps they're artistically kicking themselves.

[> [> Post-viewing: MICHELLE BRANCH!?!?!? (spoilers) -- Apophis, 20:12:20 10/09/02 Wed

Will someone please suggest to the WB that they need not end all their shows with inappropriate pop songs. Mind you, I have nothing against Michelle Branch; I just didn't think we needed a pop ballad to cap things off. Anyway, Mark Hamill does the best Joker voice ever, but the guy actually playing him (Joker, not Mark) looked wrong. Dinah seems very much like Dawn, only blonde and psychic. Ashley Scott is hot, but her costume is still stupid. I think the hologram glasses used to be part of a Ghostbusters toy set. Still, all things considered, it was better than any Batman movie (except the animated ones).

[> Re: O/T Birds of Prey Debut (**Spoilers** for BoP) -- JBone, 19:44:08 10/09/02 Wed

For a show that had as much tragedy in the first 10 minutes as this did, there wasn't much punch to it. That may change, but I doubt that I'll stick around for it. Unless I hear elsewhere that it's worth it. Then I'll give it another shot.

It make you wonder why the WB let BtVS get away in the first place, while they trot out these shows with "a look" that fail to capture the quality.

[> [> Re: Why Buffy: past (The WB), present (UPN) and future -- Just George, 02:40:55 10/10/02 Thu

Why is Buffy no longer on The WB? The answer is $money$. After 5 years, production companies raise their rates. The WB decided that the show wasn't going to be profitable at the rate UPN was willing to pay ME. They were right:


All $ figures are estimates from The Futon Critic (http://www.thefutoncritic.com/).

In 2000 Buffy cost The WB $1,100,000 per episode and they got $3,040,000 revenue from 8 minutes of ads the first time the episode was run. Their profit: $1,940,000 per first run episode.

In 2002 Buffy costs UPN $2,350,000 per episode and they expect to get $1,889,024 revenue from 8 minutes of ads in first run. Their expected loss: $460,976 per first run episode.

BTW, FX pays $625,000 per episode to strip the show on weekdays.


By comparison:

In 2000 Angel cost The WB $1,000,000 per episode and they got $3,040,000 revenue from 8 minutes of ads in first run. Their profit: $2,040,000 per first run episode.

In 2002 Angel's cost is not listed in the charts, but it is almost certainly more than $ $1,000,000, but much less than $2,350,000. The WB is expected to get $1,779,488 revenue from 8 minutes of ads in first run. Their profit is unknown, but I expect the show still shows a small profit.


These numbers bring a couple of things to mind:

If Angel can keep its ratings at last year's levels, and its costs don't raise, then it should stay on The WB. If it's ratings fall a lot, or its costs rise, it could become unprofitable. The ratings from the first couple of weeks will be important. The premier got a 3.7 overnight rating, exactly the same as the average ratings for the last 8 first run episodes of season 3.

UPN had better be getting more than just ad revenue from having Buffy. Right now, the show is costing them almost half a million dollars per first run episode. I hear that Buffy was helpful in raising the stature of the network. This helped UPN get additional affiliate stations so that it covered most major markets. By the end of the 2002-2003 season, UPN may have the coverage it needs and may no longer need Buffy for that reason. Given that, it may be hard for UPN to justify paying $ 2.35+ million per episode for Buffy, even if Joss and SMG stay. If they leave, (or the ratings fall) then it will be doubly hard.

On the other hand, none of UPN's new shows are pulling as well as Buffy. Actually, only Enterprise (5.1) and WWE Wrestling (4.4) out pull Buffy (4.1). All ratings are overnights. Wrestling is fading fast. Also 8:00 PM Tuesday is a tough slot, with a surging WB (Gilmore Girls, 5.8) and ABC (8 Simple Rules, 10.2) and perennial favorite J.A.G. (10.5) on CBS. If UPN kills Buffy after this season, it may be killing the 2nd or 3rd most popular show in their lineup. It will be a tough decision for UPN either way.

-JG

[> [> [> Angel will get more expensive.... -- cjc36, 07:15:06 10/10/02 Thu

Even if it's ratings climb. Why? Contractual increases. Especially around season 5. That's why Buffy went to UPN after its fifth season, of course: All the actors got more, anyway, so the studio had to negoiate for more up front from the network, eventually landing them on UPN.

As for Buffy's lack of ratings boost this season, I blame most of that on UPN's promo-style: The goofy-cutsey stuff makes Buffy look like that monster show UPN had on last season. This would have changed the first episode, perhaps. But maybe not. Heck, most of the promos have nearly nothing to do with the show that actually airs.

UPN should've been playing up in their promos the arc'd stuff: Willow's redemption/reacceptance/question of whether she is still evil, and Spike's soul. Remind people of Willow's and Spike's storylines and the questions still out there - tempted by darkness but trying to find the light. S6 *was* dark. And now the promos look like a kiddie show. That has had to confuse some casual viewers.

But what do I know? I don't run a network.

[> [> [> [> Re: Angel will get more expensive.... -- Just George, 12:27:25 10/10/02 Thu

I agree that Angel will get more expensive. I just hope it doesn't get too much more expensive.

I am encouraged that Angel's ratings stayed the same. Shows can loose viewers when they change nights. Angel seems to have kept its audience. The next couple of weeks will tell if they stay.

-JG

[> [> [> Ratings -- Darby, 09:28:09 10/10/02 Thu

If Angel keeps the same ratings numbers as last year, it should be better off - the Sunday ratings are a proportion of a bigger pie (more people watching overall than on Monday), so the same ratings translates to more viewers.

[> [> [> [> Re: Ratings -- Just George, 19:37:55 10/10/02 Thu

That's not my understanding. The following explination is from:

http://home.insightbb.com/~wahoskem/buffy6b.html


"Starting August 26, 2002, each ratings point represents 1,067,000 households or one percent of the nation's estimated 106.7 million television households. So, for example, a rating of 3.4 means that an average of approximately (3.4 x 1,067,000) = 3,627,800 households were watching Buffy. Before August 26, 2002, each ratings point represented 1,055,000 households or one percent of an estimated 105.5 million television households."


Also the ratings I listed were overnights, which are not the final ratings that cover the whole country. The following explination is from:

http://www.thefutoncritic.com/cgi/gofuton.cgi?action=thisdayintv&id=20021010


"Remember that overnight ratings (often referred to as metered market ratings) is the data from "set top boxes" in approximately 20,000 households in 53 of the largest markets in the U.S. (see the complete list). This sample covers 68.96% of all households in the U.S. These "set top boxes" track what is being watched only, not who in the household is watching what (i.e. demographic information). Overnights obviously skew to the urban audience due to the viewership being in the largest markets."


Genre shows like Buffy and Angel tend to drop in the final national ratings because they are more popular in urban areas.

-JG

[> [> [> [> [> JG is right: ratings are an absolute measure, share a relative one -- d'Herblay, 20:54:46 10/10/02 Thu

[> [> [> Re: Why Buffy: past (The WB), present (UPN) and future -- shadowkat, 09:42:19 10/10/02 Thu

Been tracking this as well. Season 6 btw had higher overall ratings than Season 5 on WB.

UPN got more attention this past year with Buffy. The head of UPN went on record in more than one article - check www.slayage.com for listing - that Buffy was UPN's Friends and losing Buffy would be like NBC losing Friends.

Yeah it cost a lot - but just like Fox's grab for NFL cost a ton - it paid off in the long run in increased viewer and critic recognition. UPN is trying to veer away from the "Male Action/Wrestling" slot i had carved for itself but was keeping it below WB to a more adult sci/fantasy cult tv slot. It's been going after as many cult fantasy and sci-fi supernatural shows as it can afford. It has two biggies already. IF Angel came up? It would grab it.
WB meanwhile is going after the teen and family audience.
It's fantasy/sci-fi is directed towards that audience. Birds of PRey is a female version of Smallville. And by the same creators of Smallville. (WB chose Smallville which cost half the price of BTvs, over Btvs' renewal.)

Personally? I think UPN will probably fight to keep Buffy this year. But if the cost goes up? It might let it go.
Or it might consider taking another show Joss or Fox offer it. We could very well see Firefly jumping to UPN if Fox doesn't like it. Who knows?

TV is a funky business. But so is publishing. ;-)

[> [> [> [> Re: Why Buffy: past (The WB), present (UPN) and future -- Just George, 12:36:32 10/10/02 Thu

Given how poorly Haunted is doing UPN will time slots to fill. And given how unhappy Fox is with Firefly, I could see them dropping it. Firefly on UPN might work out.

BTW, given the ratings of Smallville, it looks like WB made a good programming decision (though I like BTVS better).

-JG

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Why Buffy: past (The WB), present (UPN) and future -- shadowkat, 12:58:20 10/10/02 Thu

"BTW, given the ratings of Smallville, it looks like WB made a good programming decision (though I like BTVS better)."

Not overly fond of Smallville. But I can see why other people are. It has that wholesome family values thing going for it, which annoys me and I find overly predictable. Just not my cup of tea. But it's a big hit with critics and the audience. Same thing with Gilmore Girls - can't see the appeal.

Just read another article at slayage - Upn is really struggling this year. They are getting slammed in 18-34 bracket. And apparently have to give away free ads.
Doesn't make Buffy's future look too bright.

Oh and regarding STSP? Read every critical review on slayage and without exception - they all pretty much loved it. Not as much as Lessons and Beneath You, but pretty much raved.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Critical reviews of STSP (spoilers for 7.3) -- Just George, 16:51:13 10/10/02 Thu

Shadowcat: "Oh and regarding STSP? Read every critical review on slayage and without exception - they all pretty much loved it. Not as much as Lessons and Beneath You, but pretty much raved."


I know what you mean. I don't quite understand it. I thought the episode felt... off. I enjoyed you POV post, but I felt you were stretching things beyond what JE and ME meant to put into the episode in order to make an otherwise off episode seem OK in retrospect. Maybe when I watch STSP again looking for POV elements I will enjoy it more.

Actually, I subscribe to the "they re-shot the end of 7.2 and didn't go back and change 7.3 to fit" school of denial. If that is the case, I would have gone back into the studio and had SMG re-record one line in STSP. When Buffy first meets Spike he says she went away. Buffy says she was scared. This is perfectly reasonably, but not enough. They should have had Buffy add that she left "...after I brought you back from the church..." before the "I was scared" line. Such aline was emotionally unnecessary the way the scene was originally filmed. But it would have helped the emotional continuity a lot given we last saw Buffy crying while watching Spike smoke on the cross. When they re-filmed the end of 7.2, they should have made a slight editing change to 7.3 to match them up.

Just my 2 cents.

-JG

[> Re: O/T Birds of Prey Debut (**Spoilers** for BoP) -- darrenK, 19:59:44 10/09/02 Wed

Yes, Birds of Prey is a comic still in publication. In the comic, Oracle's usual partner is actually Black Canary, but word on the street has it that Huntress will be making more appearances.

The comic has been around for long enough that both Dark Angel and the Matrix seem to have stolen the "operator" concept from it.

As for the TV version, I liked it. Pardon the pun, but it's a different animal than Buffy. Buffy started from scratch. There was a mythos to build, rather than having one to embrace and live up to.

And it's well cast. The actress who plays the Huntress has a great delivery. She's not so much Cordelia, since early Cordy is blunt, both in the way she delivers her truths and in the impact she expects them to have. Huntress's delivery was cat-like. She relished her barbs and obviously enjoyed toying with people.

The characters seem plausible and reasonably 3 dimensional considering it's a first episode.

If the extra 10 minutes allowed for all the flashbacks then it was well worth it. I'm a Batman fan and it's good to see a Batman show that doesn't even need him in it.

One thing that's important to me is that it takes the characters and the situations seriously. The characters and situations are freakish and implausible. Easily undermined. So I appreciated Oracle mentioning that the Wayne Trusts pay for the computer equipment and the touch of absolute fanaticism (if she's not a fanatic then what is she? The producers asked this question and it's a good one) in her voice when she talked about Batman's war against the joker. These little things that ground the story in enough reality to make it understandable.

One thing's for sure. They are spending megabucks on the effects. They were as good as in any of the Batman movies, maybe better.

We'll have to wait and see how they do next week.

dK

[> [> Re: O/T Birds of Prey Debut (**Spoilers** for BoP) -- Desperado, 21:11:23 10/09/02 Wed

I give it 5 weeks.

[> The Good, the Bad, and the Comic Geeks -- Earl Allison, 04:26:08 10/10/02 Thu

Didn't watch too much before shutting it off out of total disinterest.

Yes, "Birds Of Prey" started as several one-shots before becoming another of DC's ongoing series -- for good or for ill, depending on your tastes.

The Good;

The actresses LOOKED nice, which is half the battle.

They are at least paying lip service to some aspects of DC continuity, although that is a scattershot attempt at best.

Barbara's Gordon's Oracle -- nice to see the wheelchair-bound character in action. As long as they KEEP her there, and handi-capable, I'll be happy. Any stupid cure storylines will piss me the hell off, and undermine the character.


The Bad;

Costumes -- I know they redid Huntress' costume because she kept "popping out" of it -- this one doesn't look too much less accident-prone.

Black Canary as a teen runaway and psychic? Sure, whatever.

Doctor Harley Quinn? I get that Dini invented a great character for the Batman Animated series, but does she have to be EVERYWHERE now?


The Comic Geek;

Yes, I was a major comics geek for a good ten years at least, so there's a lot the continuity-minded (and we can be NASTY, let me tell ya!) can carp about.

Barbara's paralysis -- yes, she was shot by the Joker, but it was a totally pointless event, from the classic "The Killing Joke" one-shot. She was shot as Babs Gordon, not Batgirl -- and it was totally random -- it was done just to get at the Commissioner!

Huntress as Helena Wayne -- not in mainstream DC, she isn't. Earth-2's (don't ask, DC made tons of alternate Earths, killed most of them off with "Crisis on Infinite Earths," and is making the same mess over again) Huntress was indeed the daughter of Batman and Catwoman -- but the newest Huntress was, IIRC, a Mafia daughter who turned (sort of) to the side of the angels as a dark-'n-gritty vigilante (they were really big a few years back). Since nothing else in this reality remotely resembles Earth-2, I'm chalking this up to easy and lazy storywriting to make a character more sympathetic and recognizable -- which they wouldn't need if they could write better.

Black Canary -- she HAD a sonic scream power at one point, and was otherwise an at-least-competant martial artist. Why replace her powers? Lazy writing? Plot contrivance (like demon-Powered deus-ex-Cordelia)?


I'll give this a major wait-and-see before totally condemning it. No slight to those who enjoyed it, though. I just get rankled with some translations of comics to other mediums. I LOVED the original Batman:The Animated Series, and the first two Christopher Reeves Superman movies (and the Raimi Spider-Man).

And here's a tidbit! Mercedes McNab played young Susan Storm in the Roger Corman "Fantastic Four" movie, if anyone's interested.

Take it and run.

[> [> deus ex machina and Cordelia -- Robert, 09:46:56 10/10/02 Thu

>>> "Plot contrivance (like demon-Powered deus-ex-Cordelia)?"



Could you please explain this remark? How is demonized Cordelia an example of deus ex machina?

[> [> [> demon ex machina -- TRM, 10:23:48 10/10/02 Thu

Oh no, what do we do with all these water-sucking thrombogenetic (?) creatures? Oh wait, Cordy glowed.

Oooh, Conner's out of control again! Oh wait, Cordy glowed.

...

I was a little disappointed with the resolution of those storylines.

[> [> [> [> Exactly ... -- Earl Allison, 10:42:15 10/10/02 Thu

Those were exactly the instances I was looking for.

The dehydrating slug-creatures are simply dispelled -- no muss, no fuss, and no further explanation or clarification of Cordelia's demony powers ...

Ditto for the Lorne-dubbed "soul colonic" Cordelia gives to the angry Connor. It happens, and there is no explanation.

Cordelia's powers were grossly nebulous, never explained, and used to (IMHO) cheaply resolve or move along two plots without so much as a word.

I'm not sure about the Time Stoppage from 3.22 only because it MIGHT have been Skip's doing.

It just struck me as a very lazy way to write, because there still doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to her demon abilities to date.

I have the same concerns with Black Canary the psychic -- that her powers may grow and expand to fill in for what would normally be considered bad writing, a deus-ex-machina.

Your mileage may vary.

Take it and run.

[> [> [> [> [> the writing -- Robert`, 12:38:18 10/10/02 Thu

>>> "It just struck me as a very lazy way to write, ..."



I personally liked what Mutant Enemy (ME) did with Cordelia last season with her unannounced powers. In order to make these powers known (to the viewing audience), the powers must manifest themselves. My take on the two incidents you spoke of, (the slug demons and the soul colonic) was that the point of both those episodes was to exhibit Cordelia's powers and the nature of them. I noticed a couple points about these powers.



Cordelia never used her powers proactively. She "removed" the slug demons only when the situation became dire. We don't know what she did with the demons. Maybe they were destroyed or maybe just returned from whence they came. She calmed Conner only when he made a direct and immediate attack on Cordelia. In both incidents, Cordelia's actions seemed to have the minimal effect, even though the experience was dramatic. Despite its minimal usage, Cordelia's power appears to be immense.



It was in service for her ascension in the episode "Tomorrow" that it be shown that Cordelia only manifested her power for minimal self-defense, that she never allowed the power to corrupt her. I believe these incidents achieved just this goal. There may have been other ways of showing it, but I am satisfied with what we were given.



My problem with considering these incidents as examples of "deus ex machina" is as follows. In the Greek plays, the deus ex machina was a way to resolve an otherwise impossible scenario and bring the play to a close. The deus ex machina otherwise served no purpose in the play, except maybe to show the lowly people that they required the help of the gods to extract them from otherwise intractable problems.



On the other hand, the story that Joss Whedon is telling on AtS is not yet finished. The slug demons and the "soul colonic" where merely minor episodes to service the big story. Cordelia's usage of the power did not merely serve to resolve an impossible situation. Rather, the situations served to demonstrate the nature of Cordelia's power. Similarly, the situation which led to Cordelia acquiring the power in "That Vision Thing" also in serving the story currently being told.



Having written all this, it doesn't change the fact; if the story telling doesn't work for someone, the for him the writing is bad or lazy or sloppy or whatever. For me, the story works beautifully.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: the writing of Cordy--Non-spoiled speculation for Season 4 -- Arethusa, 07:21:37 10/11/02 Fri

When the slug demons attacked and Cordy did her glowy thing, Lilah was standing by with a rescue team. So there was another way for AI to be rescued, decreasing the deus ex machina factor quite a bit. The weird thing about the Conor incident was that despite the "soul colonic," Conor was still an angry and toxic puppy, as his off-shore dumping of Angel soon afterwards proved. Conor wouldn't have been so quick to trust Justine (about whom Holtz had forgotten) over Angel unless he still harbored tons of bile (at least IMO).

If ME develops a character a certain way, it is almost always because they are working towards a certain goal. Usually, it is to set up certain expectations in the viewer, which are then twisted or subverted. If Cordelia goes from earthy and snarky to heavenly goddess, it might be because they plan to take her character in a new direction, and are practicing misdirection. I can't guess what they'll do next, but it will probably be the opposite of what we expect.

[> [> Re: The Good, the Bad, and the Comic Geeks (some future spoilers, BoP) -- TRM, 10:46:56 10/10/02 Thu

I actually am not a comic geek, I just follow rumors quite a lot. I have never read Birds of Prey (I've probably read about twelve comic books in my entire life), so everything I have to say is rather unfounded, but...

I don't think it's necessarily bad that they are reinventing the story because, as evidenced by the multiple earth's comment you made as well as the golden/silver/iron age of comics, the stories behind these characters change very often. A "reconception" of the BoP storyline is not necessarily bad -- simply risky. What they need to be careful of is not to loose the important elements of comic book style if not BoP style (though, for example, a transition from Golden Age Batman to Iron Age Batman is generally not seen as a bad thing).

Such seems largely the case with Dinah who, although sharing the same real name as Black Canary is not, at least at the outset Black Canary. The way Barbara's paralysis was explained was probably done more to compact the storyline than anything else, though I agree that the sort of "random act of killing" was lost -- arguably, the character of Harley also lacked the randomness that her original manifestation had. Megalomaniacal tendencies don't seem to suit her all that well and reduces the complexity of her character. Indeed, how many Batman villians were actually so to gain absolute power?

-- FUTURE SPOILERS FOLLOW IN WHITE TEXT (highlight to view) --
Dinah's mother, who is supposed to be Black Canary is purported to be visiting around episode 3. I have no further information than that, but my speculation is that she will die and somehow Dinah will adopt her name (even though she's a blonde).
-- END OF SPOILERS--

My last comment: From my perspective, while I understand the great interaction that has and can occur between Batman and the rest of the DC universe, I always thought that Batman stories without the superpowers have always been superior. Yes, Bane could juice up or Scarecrow had scientific capabilities far beyond what modern science could do, but Batman tended to have been more of a psychological mind game than a game of strength or powers. Such was the Joker (unless you count his pale countenance and disfigured visage a super ability). Huntress mentioned weird things happening with meteorites, so Smallville crossovers here we come.

Buffy vs The Outsiders (small 7.3 spoilers, but mostly about previous seasons) -- Tchaikovsky, 07:56:57 10/10/02 Thu

Anybody hoping for a Camus treatise is going to be severely diappointed here. This is about outsiders in Buffy's life, sometimes herself, rather than that book. I leave comparisons of a Moroccan's mother and the son's crazy friends to someone else.

I was thinking about the perceived inconsistency with Spike in episode 7.3; how Buffy makes jokes about him, and seems to lack the compassion of the end of Beneath You. One plausible explanation which has been given is the re-write of the final scene of 7.2 by Joss. But leaving that aside for a moment, what reason is there for Buffy to jokingly criticise Spike, and laugh hime off as insane? Isn't that just cruel? (This isn't a Spike apologist post- honest). Spike is an outsider to the Scooby Gang, (one of several this season), and he is being treated, when away, a little unfairly by Buffy. Do we have any precedent for this? I believe so. I would argue that Buffy has great trouble with outsider figures; problems which have caused a certain number of clashes of personality over the years, since the original season.

In Season One, we see the ground rules for the Buffyverse being set up. It's a nascent season, full of swings in tone; and the monsters of the week are sometimes jarring. But there are certain aspects of the season which are interesting. A couple of these deal with Buffy's outsider complex. In 'Welcome to the Hellmouth', Buffy herself is the outsider. A new student to Sunnydale High, it is emphasised and re-emphasised how much she wishes to fit in.
Originally, she shuns Xander and Willow, preferring the socially popular Cordelia and company. It is only due to the denouement that Buffy is united with the two people who will become her best friends. Her attitude towards slayership is for a similar reason. She doesn't want the badge of oddness any more. She wants to fit in. Slaying vampires of an evening has never been 'in'. She rejects it because she has no concept, (yet) of herself as a superhero. She sees the only result of taking on Slayer duties as becoming the Outsider figure. Something she doesn't want to do. Throughout the season, she must come to terms with her destiny. In the end, she comes to the simplistic conclusion, in 'Prophecy Girl', that it is her fate to die against the Master. She has embraced her role.

However, Buffy's acceptance of the Slayership no longer makes her feel excluded. Throughout the first season, the kernel of the Scooby Gang, throughout all seasons, in Giles, Buffy, Xander and Willow, is being established. Now she feels part of the group. Even better, she has the most crucial position in the set up. Buffy's acceptance has at least partly to do with the way the group gives her a feeling of belonging.

As Buffy as a series continues, morphing like the First Evil into a mature, deeply philosophical and internally consistent show, we still see Buffy with a distrust of the outsider, specifically and generally. Consider, for example, Faith in Season Three. Buffy has returned from her holiday hell in LA, and Faith is new to the group. Buffy distrusts her. Why? The obvious reason is her role being supplanted by Faith. But also, Buffy is fearful of the group dynamic being shattered. She distrusts Faith, who has had (made up but believed by ie Xander) adventures beyond hers, who is coming in from the outside. She is, (co-incidentally) proved to be right. Faith enjoys slaying for the gratification of violence, and is uncomfortably close to the dark side. But these are NOT Buffy's original reasons for disliking her.

We must also consider Buffy's inherent dislike of Anya. Anya is one of the major characters added to the group through Season Four. At this stage, Anya's id is in control, with no superego to control it. Buffy again distrusts Anya. They never get on well. Perhaps Buffy has her nose put out of joint a little by Anya's possessiveness of Xander, but it isn't just this. It's a feeling that an outsider, someone without a clearly demarcated role in society or her gang, should not be trusted.

This distrusts manifests itself through a couple of Buffy's boyfriends. In Parker, Buffy is longing for someone who will give her a normal version of love, one unconfused by any vampire issues, but also one considered by society to be the right sort of love. She is over-trusting that this is how normal people's lives work out, a trust echoed later in 'All The Way', talking to Xander about his marriage to Anya, before their marriage goes down the drain. However, if Parker can be said to be 'the bad guy' in that relationship, the same cannot be said for Buffy with Riley. Here again, Buffy chooses a boyfriend very much from 'within', Riley goes to her college, Riley has no apparent peccadilloes, Riley is a 'regular guy'. As usual, it turns out that Riley is not a 'regular guy', and called into question whether there is such a thing at all. But Buffy cannot get what she wants out of the relationship, as Riley eventually realises. She picks somebody eventually as much out of a safety factor as of real romance.

This fear fo outsiders has a big role to play in Buffy's confusion and apparent lack of direction during the early part, (throughout?) Season Six. When she comes back from heaven, she has been, to an extent, shut out of the group. Notice the way that in both 'Afterlife' and 'Flooded', the group research starts without her, leaving her to interrupt and feel isolated. Now, and for the first time in four years, she is once again cast in the role of outsider. She reacts in a way which is perhaps unsurprising. She associates herself with the other person in her life who she has always considered an outsider to her group- Spike. There is a need for identity here. Buffy feels she can't reveal how wrong Willow and the gang were to pull her out of heaven, even if with good intentions. The only person she feels comfortable with is Spike. Looking at a quote from 'Flooded', we have,
BUFFY: Why are you always around me when I'm miserable?
SPIKE: Cos that's when you're alone, I reckon. [Quote approx].

Spike, ever the perceptive one about emotions, sees that Buffy feels a lack of belonging. She has become the outsider figure that she distrusts. Now she must consider how to react. But she doesn't. Always an impulsive person, (the 'hand' section of the quartet in 'Primeveal', she acts physically often), she throws herself into a dangerous and sadomasochistic relationship with Spike.

In 'As You Were', Riley returns. Notice here how Riley, more than ever, has a strong sense of belonging. In no sense is he an outsider. In his work, he is part of a tight-knit organisation. Socially, he is married to someone. This jolts Buffy back into her old, sometimes deeply flawed perspective. Buffy has become the outsider, the renegade, during her liaison with Spike. She wants to feel the same sense of belonging that she suspects Riley feels. She, without any real explanation to the bleach-blonde vampire, breaks off her relationship with Spike, and tries to return to a situation where she can be accepted and loved by the gang. A situation in which she is, to link a little scarily 'normal again'.

'Normal Again' is another episode in which Buffy's fear of the outside takes over. How can she be living in a strange, largely unexplored world, with hosts of demons? She must, deep down, be a 'normal' girl, one who fits in, [consider the line: 'Whistle while you work, so hard, all day, to be like other girls/ To fit in in this magical world' from Once More, With Feeling]. There is still at least a subconscious, latent desire to be one of the 'mindless automatons', in Buffy's mind. She wants to belong.

And so, finally to 7.3. Buffy has cried for the vampire who has been her nemesis, her confidante, her gigolo, her lover, her lap-dog. But, now more than ever, Spike is the outsider. Estranged from the vampire world by his soul, but still estranged from humankind in many ways. So Buffy, back at the head of the strong trio with Xander and Dawn, which she feels defines her, is back, for the first time since her resurrrection, as an insider to the Scooby Gang.Incidentally, it is noticeable that she didn't finish off anyone bad towards the end of last season; Willow skinned Warren, and Xander nullified Willow. Buffy, as the figurehead, did not exist. Now back in the gang, she once again feels a need to criticise the outsider, the person she is uncomfortable with, Spike. She still has not fixed her immediate distrust of these people.

If Spike and Buffy are to re-unite in any way, then something big has to change. Spike has to become part of a group, and gain a sense of place which allows Buffy to identify him. Or Buffy finally needs to drop an aspect of her psyche which has made her distrust others, (and herself) for so many years. Maybe the most clear portrayal of Buffy's distrust of outsiders comes from her reaction to telling Tara about Buffy and Spike's relationship. Buffy, inconsolably, tells Tara not to forgive her. The self-hate, and self-denial, which has surfaced due to her outsider status, is overwhelming.
TCH

PS This is my first attempt at a long-ish post here. By all means tear into my argument- but go easy on my essay style! It probably needs practice

[> How could I resist? "Do it for Johnny!" -- ponygirl staying gold, 08:27:51 10/10/02 Thu

Nice analysis of the seasons! As many have put it far more eloquently than myself, BtVS has always dealt with the concept of the Other. Set apart from the rest of the school the Scoobies form their own society, with rules and secrets that exclude others. They do resist bringing new people into the fold, Faith is probably the only person brought in who wasn't romantically involved with one of the core Scoobs, and look how well that turned out. Despite whatever togetherness the Scoobies have found, they all constantly deal with anxiety over isolation, none more so than Buffy. As the Slayer she is doubly set apart.

Buffy has very clear views on what constitutes Other for her: demon, darkness. The fact that all of these things may in fact be contained within her is IMO the true driving conflict of her nature. That the Other is in fact herself.

Sorry, should probably have a longer more thought out reply to your post, but work calls!

[> Agree and disagree (spoilers through STSP) -- Sophist, 08:40:03 10/10/02 Thu

I think you have identified a very important issue, but I can't agree with some of your points. I actually thought about this during the summer and almost did a long post on it, but got distracted. Thanks for bringing it up.

Before I say more, I want to correct one point:

Originally, she shuns Xander and Willow, preferring the socially popular Cordelia and company. It is only due to the denouement that Buffy is united with the two people who will become her best friends.

I don't agree. The very first scene with Willow -- the famous "softer side of Sears" line -- shows us that Buffy empathizes with Willow (the outsider). Buffy then approaches Willow for help with homework and reassures her that she wants to hang with her. At no time did she shun Xander or Willow, and her discomfort with the way Cordelia treated them was obvious.

I agree that the outsider/insider distinction is important. The show walks a fine line here -- the SG consists of "outsiders", but they are so important (to us and to Sunnydale) that they become, in some sense, the "in" group. We see this repeatedly; here are some examples:

*Cordy's comment that she never would have dated Xander except for the fact that Buffy made him "cooler". The Wish.

*Buffy's award in The Prom.

*Most important, we see the depiction of those who are even more outsiders -- Marcie, Jonathan, Tara, et al.

The treatment by the SG of these outsiders is generally compassionate. It is, after all, their chosen role to aid others. Obviously, this compassion ends if the outsider becomes socially dangerous.

Occasionally, however, the limits of that compassion rear their ugly head. For example, there is a gratuitous (though funny) insult of Jonathan at the end of Earshot. S6 gave us far too many examples of this -- think of Xander's putdowns of Andrew in TTG ("you never had sex in high school"; as though Xander was a love machine himself). I consider these scenes unfortunate, because they detract from the intended image of the SG as the outsiders who can identify with other outsiders because they've been there. The SG members come across as arrogant, not compassionate.

I agree with you that the change in tone with respect to Spike between BY and STSP is probably due to the rumored change in the ending of BY. Before that, the treatment of Spike can be explained by his EEEEEVIL nature (well, that works for some people, anyway). But I felt that the scenes in STSP were weak and detracted from both the episode and my estimation of the SG, and I hope they fix that in the future. At this point, Spike deserves the compassion that is supposed to be the SG's hallmark, not the contempt that they showed last week.

[> [> Re: Agree and disagree (spoilers through STSP) -- leslie, 14:54:25 10/10/02 Thu

"Before that, the treatment of Spike can be explained by his EEEEEVIL nature (well, that works for some people, anyway). But I felt that the scenes in STSP were weak and detracted from both the episode and my estimation of the SG, and I hope they fix that in the future. At this point, Spike deserves the compassion that is supposed to be the SG's hallmark, not the contempt that they showed last week."

Well, first of all, Buffy is the only human who knows that Spike has a soul, so you would expect Xander and Dawn to go on treating him exactly the same as they have before. (And let's note that even when completely bonkers, Spike still manages to get in a jab at Xander: "The Slayer's Boy.")

As for Buffy--as she explicitly says to Spike in the basement, he really freaked her out in the church. She has--for her usual unfathomable reasons--decided not to share Spike's souliness with the others, so she is--in her usual inimitable way--having to pretend that everything is normal. But I think the compassion she feels for Spike is also tempered by her realization that he may have a soul, but he is also seriously unstable, and no, she doesn't want to be roped to the crazy vampire.

Part of the fun of BtVS is the quips, and Buffy certainly takes pride in her punning, but a lot of times, people make jokes when they are nervous or anxious as a way of deflecting the seriousness of what's happening. I think a lot of Buffy's fighting repartee comes from this, and I think it's also what underlies her current attitude toward Spike.

[> [> [> Re: Agree and disagree (spoilers through STSP) -- Sophist, 16:45:01 10/10/02 Thu

Buffy is the only human who knows that Spike has a soul, so you would expect Xander and Dawn to go on treating him exactly the same as they have before.

Maybe. We don't know yet if she told them or not. But whether she did or not, it was Buffy's jokes that bothered me.

I can't accept the excuse that she was deflecting the seriousness of the situation. They were in no obvious risk. In any case, it is one thing to make fun of a demon opponent of sound mind. It's a very different one to make fun of a souled being who is not.

[> [> [> [> Re: Agree and disagree (spoilers through STSP) -- leslie, 16:50:57 10/10/02 Thu

Oh, I really think that if Xander knew that Spike had a soul, he would be saying something about it!

But seriously, I think that we have to assume that, since Spike's state is so wound up in secrecy, ellipsis, and uncertainty, that unless someone is specifically depicted as knowing that he's souled--as Buffy and Anya have been--we shouldn't assume that they've been informed off-screen.

As for the joking, I think that's a matter of taste and personal interpretation.

[> [> Re: Agree and disagree (spoilers through STSP) -- meritaten, 17:18:22 10/10/02 Thu

In STSP, I thought Buffy's treatment of Spike was a result of her own confusion and inner turmoil. After all, how would you react to an announcement like Spike's? Don't get me wrong, I think Buffy should be treating Spike better. However, In her confusion, the emotionally "safest" response is to continue with her outward loathing of Spike until she comes to terms with this new information.

Buffy's actions bother me, yes. However, I don't find them surprising.

[> Re: Buffy vs The Outsiders (small 7.3 spoilers, but mostly about previous seasons) -- Rahael, 09:42:28 10/10/02 Thu

Good post!

Just a quick response for now - trying to finish off a project for work.

Yes, I think you're right that Buffy doesn't want to be 'odd' - but I think 'Slayerness' goes beyond simple unpopularity or eccentricness, which will reduce her social popularity. It's a burden which means she will never get to grow old. She has to go out every night, perhaps facing the fact that she'll die that night. She knows that the world demands her life from her (PG) and yet, though she is 'special', 'chosen', she is expendable, and easily replaced.

In fact, I admire Buffy for not thinking of herself as a 'superhero', and I would argue that Buffy's speech in PG is not simplistic in the least. She is not fatalistic, she doesn't think, "oh, well, I have to die, I can't do anything else, this is what a Slayer is". She thinks, "this is my duty", and even if I die, I have to try and stop the Master. She accepts what has to happen, but I think at a certain level, its the way that every human being has to accept mortality. It's not a simplistic act. It's a profoundly creative, distressing, complex process.

I would equate Slayerness for Buffy as the same quality explored in Season 6 "I came back wrong". It's that distressing for her. She's basically different from everyone. She's not even really human. There's something else in her. Not that she's the only one. There's Oz, with the wolf within. There's Tara, who believed for so long that she's a demon. There's Angel, Vampire. There's Xander, demon magnet. There's Willow, the witch.

Otherness can be a positive, special quality in the Buffyverse, but it can also bring profound anguish. In this sense, I think you underestimate Buffy's pain. The Buffy who worried about social popularity disappeared a long time ago. In fact, since then, Buffy has drawn further and further away, culminating in a Season 6 where she couldn't bear the company of the people who loved her. Her Otherness had become such an isolating, painful thing, that she felt she walked by herself, and only Spike could understand.

I think there's one thing that BUffy's definitely distrustful of, and that's authority. I'm not so sure about 'outsiders'. With Faith, Buffy didn't dislike her until she killed Finch. 'Bad Girls' showed how much she could like Faith. What Buffy felt for Faith initially was jealousy. Here was a Slayer who didn't have all the angst that she did. Who didn't care. Who had fun, who didn't answer to Giles, or Wesley. Who did whatever she wanted. She was jealous that Faith would take her friends away; jealous that she would steal Joyce's love, steal her place. For after all, doesn't Faith occupy the same 'space' she does? Buffy isn't supposed to exist! There's only meant to be one slayer. Faith reminds Buffy of her mortality. Of her expendability. Denies her her specialness. Basically, I think in each of the cases you mention, there's more going on than Buffy distrusting anyone who doesn't belong.

More thoughts later!

[> [> Quick note about Season One -- Tchaikovsky, 10:18:35 10/10/02 Thu

Probably went in slightly over my head on Season One specifics, which I admit I haven't watched for a while. But doesn't Buffy go to the Bronze with Cordelia, only to be distracted by Willow being caught by a vampire?

I completely agree with you that Buffy's thought processes aren't simplistic in that way in 'Prophecy Girl'. I too think that it is a courageous and well-thought out speech. The simplicity I was referring to was in the facts which informed her decision. Specifically, the fact they weren't facts. It's based on a prophecy. She could have believed it was false. But she didn't. However, I don't mean this critically, and I'm not claiming Buffy wasn't heroic in what she did. She clearly was.

I also hope I didn't suggest that Buffy's problem was entirely to do with social popularity beyond Season One. I brought that up to introduce the topic of her discomfort at outsiders. I think that the way in which that affects her changes, through social popularity, (note though that she still wants to be accepted by everyone in 'Homecoming' as somehow a figurehead for her year, and this is Season Three), to Faith, to Anya to Spike.

Completely agree with your summation of the role of the Slayer, the burden it brings. I was trying to avoid that subject so that my essay didn't become as long as one of OnM's, but without the style or substance
TCH

[> [> [> "It wasn't our world anymore" -- Rahael, 10:33:41 10/10/02 Thu

Drive by posting!

"But doesn't Buffy go to the Bronze with Cordelia, only to be distracted by Willow being caught by a vampire?

No - Buffy and Cordelia had already parted ways earlier, when she goes and sits with Jesse, Willow and Xander, and Cordy finds her with them. She says "Don't let me stop your downward social mobility" thought Willow sweetly tries to keep Cordy in Buffy's good graces by saying "She isn't with us".

Buffy goes to the Bronze alone, and when she gets there, looks lonely and uncomfortable. Her face brightens when she sees Willow, and she has the 'seize the day' conversation with her. Seize the day, Buffy tells her, because we could be dead tomorrow.


As for PG, Buffy doesn't blindly accept what Giles tells her. That's not why she goes to face the Master. She tells Giles that she quits.

Then, there is the incident where Willow discovers the bodies of her dead friends in the TV room in school. The cartoons are blaring, and there is blood everywhere. She says to Buffy:

"Willow: I'm not okay. I knew those guys. I go to that room every day.
And when I walked in there, it... it wasn't our world anymore. They made
it theirs. And they had fun. (a tear rolls down her cheek) What are we gonna do?
Buffy: What we have to. (gets up and exhales) Promise me you'll stay in
tonight, okay?"

(Quotes from Psyche)

And that's why Buffy goes. She has to do it, even if she dies in the attempt. She might not win, she might not make any difference at all, but she couldn't stand by while the Vampires made Sunnydale their world.

But I take your other points - will think more about this.

[> [> [> [> Repentant -- Tchaikovsky, 13:48:35 10/10/02 Thu

Or however, you spell it.

Sorry; there can't be anything worse than an argument based on incorrect memory.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Repentant -- Rahael, 15:13:38 10/10/02 Thu

I think the central argument holds good. I'm having problems grappling with. Hence me picking at the edges!

Which is cheating really. I think you're right, that there is a tension within the idea of the Scoobies as others. In fact, I think you could extend the idea of distrust to more than BUffy. Willow disliked Faith far more than Buffy - and Xander always had problems being upfront with his relationships wiht relative outsiders - Cordelia and Anya.

At any rate, I think it's an idea worth exploring.

2 + 2 + 2 (spoils up to 7.3 and very poor spec) -- neaux, 08:51:26 10/10/02 Thu

Putting 2 and 2 and 2 together.

Why must we do this? Its fun!

Last year we witnessed the core scoobies vs their high school selves. And Pairings were proposed as to which Troika member represented Xander, Willow and Buffy.

Well I'm thinking it might be 'a thing' again this year. If this season is all about working together, Demon and Human to fight some supreme evil. This is my speculation/hopes of a big ol' square dance at the end of this season.

If you go to Buffy.com the main image shows Willow,, Buffy, and Xander on the left and Dawn, Spike and Anya on the right. Is there any significance of the order? I doubt it. But I thought the division was interesting. You have your core group and then the others.

So If I were to have a big ol' Square Dance, these are my pairings:

(Buffy and Dawn), Slayer and Slayer in training working together big time.
(Spike and Xander) The lost his marbles and got it together boy working together
(Anya and Willow) Both have been on both sides of the light and working together makes sense. Plus I loved their scene in 7.3. I want more of it!

Although we havent seen much Spike/Xander, I hope it happens.

Anyone else think we are headed this way? Is coupling a bad idea?
Anyone have different duets?
Please take it to the board!

[> Re: 2 + 2 + 2 (spoils up to 7.3 and very poor spec) -- vh, 08:57:12 10/10/02 Thu

S/X interaction would be too much fun to miss out on!

[> Re: 2 + 2 + 2 (possible future spoilers- read at own peril) -- Serio, 13:34:55 10/10/02 Thu

There is spoilery stuff out there that Spike will move out of the basement and into Xander's apt. If true it would certainly add credencet to your theory.

[> [> Re: 2 + 2 + 2 (possible future spoilers- read at own peril) -- leslie, 14:42:59 10/10/02 Thu

"There is spoilery stuff out there that Spike will move out of the basement and into Xander's apt. If true it would certainly add credence to your theory."

Ah, and we all remember how well that worked out the *last* time. Will we be seeing more of Spike in shorts and loud shirts as well?

[> [> [> Re: 2 + 2 + 2 (possible future spoilers- read at own peril) -- Dochawk, 14:53:07 10/10/02 Thu

if true and it is done voluntarily think of how much growth it shows for both Xander and Spike. And I am pretty sure there is a large audience that would be happy to see Spike in shorts and loud shirts or shorts and no shirt or no shorts and no shirt.

Random comments about 7.3 Same Time Same Place (spoilers up to and including) -- verdantheart, 09:18:51 10/10/02 Thu

It's interesting to see how STSP seems to have polarized views among viewers. It really seems to be a love-it-or-hate-it episode. Funny, I wasn't overly offended by the "problem element," nor was I overjoyed or moved to tears. I did notice something that no one seems to have mentioned though.

The episode seemed to move more slowly than the previous ones. Perhaps this was an intentional change in pace from Spike's frenetic journey last week. The slow-down was forced by Willow's isolation. I guess I was too anxious to see the characters get together and interact. It felt like there was a lot on hold, and that not even Willow could move on before we got through this episode. But maybe that's the point. (Interestingly, Spike seems to catch on to what happened right away, but can't communicate it in a way that Buffy & Xander can understand.)

Liked the basement, research (go Dawn!), and demon-location scenes.

Anyone else have this feeling?

[> Re: Random comments about 7.3... (long) -- ZachsMind, 11:13:46 10/10/02 Thu

I agreed with the sentiments of the boys and girls at BuffyRadio. This was a filler episode. They wanted to bring Willow back and wanted to make that take up an entire episode, but the writing and the production turned out to be just so-so, intended to fill up a week where they coasted. The majority of the performers seemed to phone in their efforts. Even Marsters seemed iffy at points. Although he had the highest standard to meet and he did meet it. He had to convey to the audience that he was talking to both Willow & Buffy simultaneously. He succeeded there. Although the director and continuity people should have paid more attention to his performance, and keep certain things more exact. The writing there, on Spike's side, was impeccable, and that scene almost saved the episode.

Ultimately though the episode is unforgivable. Nothing remarkable was revealed. It was intended to introduce Willow back into the fold with little to no dangerous change. They avoided having to do the initial meeting between the lot of them, by having Willow avoid meeting them till WE as an audience are comfortable with it. It purposefully diminished the tension, leaving us to almost feel sorry for Willow. Again. Like Dawn pointed out, "when are we gonna get around to blaming Willow?" Apparently not. She's a main character, and has a get out of finishing school free card.

Thus she is able to avoid being punished. A couple episodes ago, Giles asked her if she wanted to be punished. Her response was "I just wanna be Willow." So do the writers. Rather than face the dilemma and follow through of the questions posed and elements set into motion last season they hope to sweep much of it under the rug. REturn to business as usual.

Yet Willow DID get punished in a way. By a creature who happened to do to her what she did to Warren, only not in a way that would cause Hannigan to suffer a massive makeup job. Must be in her contract. Not that it's really that big a deal. She killed Warren, who was a wuss anyway, and she killed Rack (allegedly) who was giving witches a bad named and had kinda spiritually raped her some weeks before. So both guys she killed had their come uppance coming, but it was by her hand and she's supposed to be a good guy. She *almost* killed other people but the ones she did kill were probably gonna get killed by someone else eventually anyway. She did the world a favor.

Still, the moral ambiguity of Whedon's universe, which has always been prevalent, is now just running rampant. "It's not about right. It's not about wrong. It's about power." Uh, no. It's about right & wrong, and how those with power get away with doing wrong. One can argue it's also about karma and the weight catching up with you, as Spike is now learning the hard way, and as Anya's about to learn the hard way.

As for the polarization of fans, I am not polarized. I have mixed feelings. It was poorly written in parts and poorly executed throughout. The pace was terribly slow, due in part to the storyteller need to tell the same story from two different perspectives (a kinda "Boomtown" variation, I thought). First we see the S7 Core Scoobs (BXD) waiting for Will, then we see Will alone with a similar panning camera angle. And this went on a few times. It was a necessity and should have congealed with Spike's realization, but that would have required including Spike in the cave at the end. There's a lot of shouldacouldawouldas in this episode. It just wasn't well constructed.

Great potential. Major let down. Somebody somewhere dropped the ball. But I appreciated what they were trying to do and the episode was entertaining. It's just that... after "Beneath You," I guess anything short of terrific would be a let down.

[> [> Re: Random comments about 7.3... (long) -- Finn Mac Cool, 14:18:34 10/10/02 Thu

You seem to be assuming things like punishment for Willow or estrangeness from the group won't happen. Of course they couldn't happen in this episode, because Willow was by herself almost the full time. Also, making us feel sorry for Willow isn't necessarily a bad thing. There have been many outright devilish villains on BtVS that have garnered our sympathies (Marcie Ross from "Out of Mind, Out of Sight", Spike from "Lover's Walk", Kathy from "Living Conditions"). Why should someone actually trying to change her ways be made less sympathetic than these characters?

[> [> [> Re: Random comments about 7.3... (long) -- Tamara, 15:54:31 10/10/02 Thu

Right Faith is in jail cause Buffy said that was the only choice she had. Willow gets to spend a 3 month vacation in England at wicca school with Giles the man she tortured in Grave. She is now living with Buffy and Dawn 2 people that she terrorised and tried to kill. I cant believe Buffy is letting Willow live with Dawn after what Willow did "We'll all be a lot happier without the constant whining, you're not even human Dawn" and all the rest of it. And Willow gets to escape jail and punishment because shes a scoobie. How is suffering for 1 episode really suffering the consequences?

[> [> [> [> Re: Random comments about 7.3... (long) -- Finn Mac Cool, 16:11:50 10/10/02 Thu

What makes you think Willow will only suffer for that one episode?

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Random comments about 7.3... (long) -- Tamara, 16:22:01 10/10/02 Thu

Well thats just how it came across to me. We were meant to pity poor Willow who comes back to the airport and finds the friends she terrorised, tortured and tried to kill arent there. That gives Willow a chance to start with the self-pitying. Yeah my heart really bled for her.
And Willow is alone all episode whining about that and at the end Buffy tells Willow she wont be alone anymore and basically Willow is back in the group. I thought the whole point of Willow suffering was so we would feel bad and forgive her as she was suffering her karmic reward. I wonder how Faith would feel about that after doing over 2 years in the slammer. Either killing changes people or not. Buffy said to Angel "No chance jail" when discussing Faith (or something like that anyway) so I dont think its very fair that Willow gets to be a scoobie again after one episode to make us feel bad for her.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Faith vs. Willow -- monsieurxander, 16:52:19 10/10/02 Thu

Faith and Willow were entirely different cases. Willow killed her girlfriend's murderer and a drug/magic peddler. Faith has killed several more... I can think of at least two instances where she killed innocent individuals for her own personal gain or that of Mayor Wilkins. Willow was strung out and grieving... Faith's actions were premeditated.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Huh, sorry ? -- Ete, 16:55:04 10/10/02 Thu

"Faith has killed several more... I can think of at least two instances where she killed innocent individuals for her own personal gain or that of Mayor Wilkins. "

Faith only killed two people. The first one was an accident. The second one was under the orders of Wilkins. Who are the other "several more innocent individuals" that she killed for her personnal gain ?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Huh, sorry ? -- monsieurxander, 16:59:44 10/10/02 Thu

I was referring to the scientist guy in Graduation Part 1, and the harmless demon in an episode I can't remember the name of.(I said "individuals", not people.)

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Huh, sorry ? -- Finn Mac Cool, 18:29:00 10/10/02 Thu

Faith's murder count runs: harmless demon in Enemies, Gavrok Box dealer in Choices, and Professor Worth in Graduation Day Part I.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Don't Forget the Pimp in the Angel episode... -- AngelVSAngelus, 10:22:39 10/11/02 Fri

I forget the title, but it was the one before Sanctuary.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> She beat him up, didn't kill him -- Scroll, 11:13:14 10/11/02 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Faith vs. Willow -- Tamara, 17:57:50 10/10/02 Thu

Willow did not just kill her girlfriends murder. She strung him up in the woods and got off on torturing him. She then skinned him alive and set fire to him. When she killed Rack she took the same "tour" that Marti Noxen said was rape in some interview I read when Rack did it. So she metaphorically raped Rack as well as mindraping her friends and Tara in Tabula Rasa. In fact Tara had told Willow to please stop violating her as it reminded her of how helpess she was after Glorys attack. Willow goes on to do a spell on Tara the very next day and smiles while she does it!
And Willow frightened the hell out of Dawn and tried to kill her. She also wanted a smackdown with Buffy and told Giles he was controlling and interfering before beating the crap out of him and almost killing him. Oh yeah she also tried to end the world which was basically mass genocide.
And Willow herself told Faith in Choices well you had a raw deal boo hoo that is no excuse and its still to late for you to be a good guy again and make up for what youve done.
I guess Faith should have been juiced up on black magic too and then she might have the same get out of jail free card.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Faith vs. Willow -- Finn Mac Cool, 18:39:12 10/10/02 Thu

Well, in your posts you seem to be assuming that people who have committed great wrongs need to be punished accordingly. I do not think so. Instituitons for punishing evil acts (such as the law) serve the purposes of giving a since of retribution to the wronged and to discourage people from committing evil. If it can be assurred Willow will not kill again, I see no reason to dish out punishment, as doing so won't set an example for anyone. The thing with Faith was, Buffy didn't want her in jail just for justice, but also for revenge. In fact, didn't Angel speak against such an attitude? If Faith hadn't gone to jail of her own free will, I don't think she would have been sent there.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: One more diff between Faith and Willow -- Valhalla, 23:30:06 10/10/02 Thu

One more difference between the Willow and Faith situations is that Willow is both seeking and accepting both help and foregiveness -- from Giles, coven, and the Scoobies. Buffy tried again and again to be Faith's friend and help her do the right thing, but Faith consistently rejected her and eventually teamed up with the enemy. Buffy didn't see Faith turn to Angel for help, or her big rain-sodden breakdown. Faith always had serious issues with Buffy; Buffy really couldn't help her as long as it was her own self that stood in the way. But Buffy can help Willow.

Not to mention that Willow's credit with the Scoobies runs a lot deeper than Faith's. I don't mean that to say that good and evil deeds are some sort of positive and negative numbers that can wipe each other out, but good deeds have to be considered when you're sitting around handing out punishment. Faith slew for the fun of it; she was only ever into it because of the game and the power. Before she really lost it, Willow fought right alongside Buffy against evil.

Btw, I very much doubt that Willow is off the hook; the central characters never are. (well, except Dawn - she pulled some real stunts last season). Suffering for one's bad acts is a fairly consistent theme with BtVS and Angel, and the season, after all, is just getting going.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I think the writers want us to think about that -- dream of the consortium, 08:49:56 10/11/02 Fri

Just to start, I want to say that I didn't hate or love the episode. Thought it was solid, but not brilliant. The biggest problem in my mind was the obviousness of the device of the skin-eating monster, and the gruesomeness of the skin-eating scene. Now, I wouldn't even being to argue that the writing team is above a too-obvious plot device. But usually they keep the truly icky to a minimum. Why the lingering over the peeling of Willow's flesh? Were they trying to say something to the fans who have worried that Willow won't be suitably punished - "Here's the girl getting just what she gave, but in slow-mo. Don't you like it? How does vengeance feel - is it good, or a little, well, upsetting?" And was the obviousness because fans who want Willow to be punished seem to be calling for obviousness - a tit for tat approach?

Personally, I'm with Finn here. I can't see what the point would be of putting Willow in jail, or even rejecting her from the group. Where is she most likely to get the support she needs to stay on track? Do we want good Willow of evil Willow? Not just for Willow's sake, althoguh compassion and mercy seem to call for the consideration of her soul, but for the sake of the community, the world? She can be a strong power for good, but she could also end up on the wrong side of the battle. The difference could lie in how she is handled. A desire for vengeance requires that she be punished. Punishment might not be the most effective way to deal with her. Giles asks if she wants to be punished. Why would you want to be punished? Well, because punishment can make you feel like the slate has been wiped clean - you did something wrong, you've been punished, and now everything is better. That's a child's understanding of the consequences of wrongdoing. Adults know that punishment doesn't change things - Warren and Rack are still dead. So, for that matter, is Tara. (Do those calling for vengeance on Willow remember that Willow's crime came in taking it upon herself to deliver vengeance upon Warren?)

Personally, I was pretty pleased with how the Willow plot is going. She is tired and seems more mature, she is trying hard to change herself - but she's not there yet. I like the fact that she is still a threat on some level. Giles sent her home, not because she was absolutely ready, but because she was needed. Buffy is not entirely ready to trust her yet, but Willow accepts that. There IS still a little self-pity about Willow - "Welcome home, me" and "I feel really responsible" - but I see that as an indication that she still has a ways to go. More plausible, in my mind, than the idea that she would come back completely matured. And she is identifying more with the demons than with the Scoobies. There were obvious links between her and Anya, but she also goes to see Spike, which I can't remember her doing much before. It was made very clear that she is outside of the Buffy/Xander/Dawn circle - not just the whole "mutual no-see-'ems," but also the fact that she is not on the list of family numbers, and her picture is not included in those by the bedside. I didn't not see this episode as representing a all-encompassing, unreserved welcome on the part of the Scoobie gang. Did you see the look of fear on Buffy's face when she realized that Willow had created the spell unconsciously (and points for the echoes of Something Blue)? They want Willow back in the fold, but she will be watched, and she's not there yet.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Crime and punishment (Spoilers through Lessons) -- Sophist, 09:36:38 10/11/02 Fri

I agree with many of your points, but I'm not so sure about the punishment issue. The point of punishment is that it reinforces the moral lesson to be learned. I found that it didn't work very well to explain carefully to my children that X was bad and they shouldn't do it because of Y. It worked much better to give that explanation and, say, ground them. If there are no real world consequences to mistakes or misbehavior, there isn't much incentive not to repeat the misconduct.

The real question is, what punishment is necessary to serve as reinforcement. We generally make that decision as a society. Personally, I'm rather uncomfortable with the current climate in the US, which is strongly punitive, particularly for offenses that I am not convinced should even be crimes. Having established my status as a bleeding heart, however, I have to go on to say that my compassion for those who harm others is fairly limited.

The issue with Willow is twofold: there is no punishment at all in accordance with the social standards that apply to everyone else; and I would be inconsistent with my own views about treatment of other torture/murderers if I accepted that lack of punishment. This creates a real dilemma for me since, as is obvious, I love the character (and I don't agree at all with the self-pity or immaturity comments).

I think you and Valhalla are right in saying that the SG has not fully accepted Willow back. That's as it should be. Valhalla's point about stored credit is also well taken. In fact, I said earlier, and I'm more convinced now, that Giles is treating Willow as a weapon, not as a friend or companion. He's using her because he needs to; there's a war going on and he's still the general. If her fate differs much from Dark Phoenix, I'll be surprised.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Exactly ! -- Etrangere, 10:00:43 10/11/02 Fri

My problem with Willow's situation currently is that I have yet to see that she understands and takes responsability for what she did in other terms that "oh, no, now they don't love me anymore and I'm all alone"
Any kind of punishment she might suffer (or the kind of karmic justice that we saw in STSP) is meaningless if it doesn't serve to enforce that moral lesson. And there, I didn't that it did.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Crime and punishment (Spoilers through Lessons) -- dream, 11:02:40 10/11/02 Fri

The point of punishment is that it reinforces the moral lesson to be learned.

Certainly. My point is that if the moral lesson is learned without it, the punishment is not necessary, except as a balm to those who feeling uncomfortable with what they see as a failure of justice. The reinforcement is absolutely necessary for a child - it might not be for an adult who is able to fully see the horror of what he/she has done, and is willing to work to do everything possible to make reparations where necessary (and suffer the guilt that goes along with the fact that some things can not be undone.) An adult can internalize punishment - Willow has had to change her conception of herself as an inherently good person, has lost the intimacy of her family group, has relinquished her power, and has to live with the guilt of blood on her hands. Enough? No - but a start, far better than if she were unrepentant and imprisoned. (Yes, of course those aren't the only two options - but what do you do with a super-powerful witch who left dust for corpses?) The question then becomes - has Willow really come to understand what she has done, and is she willing to put all of her effort into making amends as best she can? This may mean dedicatng herself to the protection of the world to a level she did not before (to the level that, say, Buffy does). After all, she did threaten the world as a whole.

I thought some part of the over-the-top quality of the violence was also to remind the viewers that this is a fantasy world in which every action is ratcheted up a notch on the drama scale. Willow tortured and murdered - but she also saved the world countless times. So making a direct comparison to torturers and murderers in our own world is a little misplaced. Her actions need to be considered in the world of the Buffyverse - a place where we can talk about the possibility for redemption for someone who killed for hundreds of years. It's also a place in which Willow has undergone trauma that would leave a normal human incapacitated.

About Giles treating Wiles as a weapon - I think you may be right about that. I don't know that I see it quite so starkly, though. I don't necessarily agree that in treating her like a weapon he is not treating her like a friend. I assume he knows that there is a big battle to be fought. Willow may not be absolutely ready, but she is needed. It's a gamble - if she is not up to the task, she might be lost. But the battle could offer her a chance for redemption, a chance to do something to make amends.

I don't think Willow is horribly immature, by the way, but just in the process of maturing, as is appropriate to her age. She's still got a lot to learn. They all do. (Frankly, so do I.)

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Agreeing with dream -- shadowkat, 11:25:55 10/11/02 Fri

Having read all the posts under Tamara's thread, I'm finding myself agreeing a great deal with dream of the consortium on this one. Mabye it's because of all the characters, Willow still makes the most sense to me? (Or maybe I've just analyzed her too much? LOL!)

I don't think Willow isn't being punished. We often think of punishment in concrete terms - jail, whipping, the boot, the bat and the bastinada, but often the worst punishments are those that we give ourselves.

For instance - who could have concieved a worst punishement for Spike's attempted rape of Buffy and his evil acts than Spike himself - the acquisition of the soul which causes him to feel the weight of all those acts ten-fold?

And who could have concieved a worst punishement for Willow than to literally hide herself from her friends, so she was as the Gnarl demon states "all alone...you don't like being all alone...cut off from everyone.." god that voice still haunts me.

Karma hits those who wrong us often far worse than the punishments that we try to come up for them. And it's differrent for everyone.

Willow I think is struggling to find herself again, figure out who she really is, because she got incredibly lost last year. Giles doesn't strike me as not being Willow's friend, if anything I saw friendship, compassion and understanding in his scenes with Willow. Remember Giles has a few magically induced crimes on his conscience. We know of Eyghon, there may be more. Of everyone - Giles understands where Willow is coming from. Last night while I was rewatching the Dark Age, there's this line at the end:
Willow or Xander says something along the lines that poor Giles not paid that much to be watcher or choosing that job and Buffy says - I don't think he has a choice. It's what he must do. This haunted me. I thought, Giles realized he had to be a watcher, partly to make up for his wild bouts with magic. He had to help the world. This makes me wonder if Willow is in the same boat? She is now being placed in the watcher? role. And it's not an easy one.

What I enjoy most about these shows is how they show the characters' good and/or horrible acts often coming back to haunt them in a boomerang like effect. Each action - has a reaction or consequence and the consequence is usually something the character would never suspect.

I think Willow's trials are far from over. All we got in this episode is a taste of what lies ahead. We also saw how important Willow is. Dawn may be able to find out stuff on the computer, but Willow with her locator spell - found numerous demons and saw all their locations. Dawn will never take Willow's place...and that was shown very clearly in the episode, even though both Xander and Willow feared Dawn had. Willow is needed and is a pretty powerful weapon - if the hellmouth is indeed about to open. I don't blame Giles for sending her back early, who knows he may be intending to follow her soon, he's just getting some watcher input first. They did say in the episode that he was in a watcher meeting all day.

Somewhat rambly I'm afraid, hope made sense. SK

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Agreeing with dream--partly -- luna, 20:06:54 10/12/02 Sat

Last season, Willow's addiction to magic was at least partly a metaphor for substance addiction, and what was happening in the first few episodes this season is clearly real recovery. (This is ONE LEVEL of interpretation only--does not contradict what others have been saying, but just suggests an additional way of looking at it all.) She's not going to get off for what she did while addicted but has begun to start down the road of at least facing it. So for Buffy to reach our with her strength to help her recover is not at all the same thing as Buffy saying it's all ok and the bad stuff never happened--it just means Willow gets a chance to start working back to the good way.

One reason I love this series is that it recognizes that tremendous good and tremendous evil can exist in the same personality, and one does not cancel out the other. Spike's struggles in BY make this literal, but I suspect we will see it more and more in Buffy as well as Willow and Anya and others.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Crime and punishment (Spoilers through Lessons) -- Sophist, 13:39:09 10/11/02 Fri

My point is that if the moral lesson is learned without it, the punishment is not necessary, except as a balm to those who feeling uncomfortable with what they see as a failure of justice.

Unfortunately, we have no way of knowing if someone else has internalized that lesson. Punishing someone allows us extra assurance that the moral lesson has been learned. It may not be logically essential, but it's practically necessary.

has relinquished her power

It doesn't look that way to me. Giles's speech in Lessons was not entirely clear, but I understood that Willow still had her power.

Willow tortured and murdered - but she also saved the world countless times. So making a direct comparison to torturers and murderers in our own world is a little misplaced

I can't agree. Willow's torture and murder followed a purely human crime. Her victim was human.

By referring to her previous good deeds, you are trying to sum up her pluses and minuses, just as Valhalla warned against. Her prior good conduct may mitigate her punishment, but it doesn't serve as a get out of jail free card. Lord knows, I've complained enough here about Xander getting those; I can't very well play favorites when it comes to Willow.

To move beyond your post to S'kat's, I wish it were true that in the Buffyverse misdeeds are always paid for. There are too many counter-examples of that with Xander alone, much less all the characters.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Yikes, gotta go, but lots to say... -- dream, 13:54:18 10/11/02 Fri

Didn't mean to say that she relinquished power entirely - just that she gave up the "power buzz" - the sense of being able to use it any way she wants. My fault - poorly articulated.

But the human crime - sure, it's a human crime that Warren commits. But he commits it in a fictional universe in which people deal with the plural of apocalyse. I'm absolutely NOT trying to imply that we should be makign a good/bad balance sheet. I'm saying that what she did was horrible, but the Buffyverse is about inflated horrors. It's not about realism. The IDEAS transfer, but not the details. I don't have time to explain what I'm trying to say here. Can anyone else help me out - does anyone agree?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Take your time. No hurry. -- Sophist, 15:22:06 10/11/02 Fri

And be sure to look at Sarand's post; lots of good points there.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Buffyverse canon -- Sarand, 13:46:37 10/11/02 Fri

As this was a question I raised over the summer, I thought I would jump in. One of the problems I have with what you are saying, dream, is that it's not what we've been told all these years by Whedon and company. Faith made the same argument to Buffy when she accidentally killed the deputy mayor: that killing one human being should be considered and even outweighed by all the lives she's saved as a Slayer, an argument that was rejected by Buffy. I just don't think the show is telling us to weigh the fact that Willow has helped to save the world in the past in considering Willow's ability to be redeemed. Taking a life is crossing a line in the Buffyverse that other beings with souls have not crossed without being punished. At least, at the moment, I can't remember any.

You also state that in the Buffyverse, "Willow has undergone trauma that would leave a normal human incapacitated." What trauma is that? Because many people suffer the trauma of losing a loved one to violence without resorting to vengeance, even with the means and opportunity. I'm just not comfortable with justifying her actions because of the death of Tara.

I'm not saying that I necessarily believe that Willow needs to be punished in order to be redeemed. But I am disturbed so far by what we are being told about Willow - that she's now so powerful that even the coven is afraid of her and the implication being that she can't be punished even if they wanted to punish her. Willow's actions in the past with regard to the bad consequences of her careless use of magic - I'm thinking "Something Blue" and "Triangle," for instance - don't give me confidence that she can learn from what she has done and take responsibility. As Dawn said in Same Time, Same Place, when do we start blaming Willow? But, as you say, it is early and there's a lot more to tell us, I think.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> An excellent post -- Rahael, 14:26:15 10/11/02 Fri

Couldn't agree more Sarand. I agree with Dream to some extent that the drama in the Buffyverse is magnified, and enlarged, but it still is a version of real life. And in real life, torturing someone, not even just killing them in a rage, but torturing them first reveals a depth of cruelty, and sadism that is alarming. It's not even equivalent to someone who tortures others on orders. It was a purely voluntary act, and one which gave pleasure.

It's magnified, but still, such a horror signifies to us that Willow crossed all sorts of lines and boundaries.

"You also state that in the Buffyverse, "Willow has undergone trauma that would leave a normal human incapacitated." What trauma is that? Because many people suffer the trauma of losing a loved one to violence without resorting to vengeance, even with the means and opportunity. I'm just not comfortable with justifying her actions because of the death of Tara. "

I too think that normal human beings undergo worse than the situations that Willow has encountered. I think the trauma being referred to is facing the kind of terror that the Hellmouth regularly throws up, and being ready to put your life in danger to protect others. But I believe that not only do normal human beings around the world do this, but that the Hellmouth is really a magnified metaphor for ordinary life. And while she may be in pain, it is the pain that all of us might have to endure.

As for the issue of punishment and repentence - well, I'm ambivalent. I cannot even begin to grasp how to get to grips with such a complex issue. Speaking as someone who has had so many loved ones put in prison for being decent human beings, or 'punished' for upholding inconvenient values. It's hard for me to start thinking of punishing people when in the context of my life, the people who should be punished are too powerful to punish. And for the well being of others, I cannot ask for, or even secretly wish for, their punishment. And perhaps, when we think about what should happen to Willow, we have to live with the reality, as Sarand points out, that, she is too powerful to punish. Perhaps this is a reflection of just how complex real life issues are.

I can remember the last powerful person who had committed great wrongs acted - Faith, who voluntarily decided to undergo the punishment that society deemed fit. I think Willow should decide, and I think we can only judge by her actions, to know how penitent she is, whether she has really got a sense of the enormity of what she did. As she told Giles: "I killed people". I think it's as bald as that. I agree with Sarand -- the Buffyverse takes murder very very seriously. It has to, because it's what keeps the value system going in a show which shows a heroine routinely, and casually ending 'life'.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Rahael and Sophist: Thanks -- Sarand, 20:38:41 10/11/02 Fri

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Buffyverse canon - Giles and Willow -- Dochawk, 08:01:39 10/12/02 Sat

Who has the right to punish Willow? Since these are human murders, its human society to punish. Well besides the fact that I don't want Buffy to turn into Law and Order, I am not sure human authorities even know there was a murder. They know about Tara's and they should be looking for Warren, but who else knows of Warren's existance? Andrew and Jonathan took off. Buffy and Xander aren't going to tesitfy. And lets see how the prosecution takes place "she tied him to a tree, and flayed him with his mind". So there is not going to be any human retribution besides what the coven can provide. She broke laws of witchcraft, using her power to kill humans, so they have some kind of court. Obviously they decided on her punishment from their point of view.

We are left with punishment from the viewers point of view. I agree that I am unsatisfied so far, but I think there is more to come. I think (and thought) it was far more likely for Willow to be accepted easily back into the Scoobies than it would be for all viewers to accept her back (though many [not all] of those same viewers think Spike should be accepted without question while having committed far more heinous crimes). The actress herself mentioned the difficult time that viewers would have accepting Willow given the nature of the punishments available.

And that leaves us with the problem of Giles as well. He also committed murder, Ben. Noone but us knows of this murder, yet we all easily accept what he has done. So the Buffyverse, like the real America, accepts that sometimes people do get away with murder. Its much more our moral qualms and considerations that affect our identifications with the characters.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Buffyverse canon - Giles and Willow -- DEN, 10:43:34 10/12/02 Sat

A small--or maybe not--point re Ben's "murder." As it stands neither human nor divine/"natural" law address the rights of two sentient entities sharing the same body. Had Giles encountered Glory in a similarly vulnerable state, killing her could be readily justified on a number of grounds, moral and pragmatic (think of finishing off a plane before the pilot has time to punch out). But would Giles also be culpable for killing Ben even though he was not "present" at the time? Similarly, had Buffy killed Glory in their earlier showdown, would she be responsible for Ben's fate as well? In cases where the law is silent, the benefit of the doubt may reasonably given to the one who acts--in this case Giles.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Good post Sarand, a few agreements and quibbles (spoilers for Marathon Man and up to 7.3 BTVS) -- shadowkat, 10:58:43 10/12/02 Sat

I've been thinking about your post off and on since I read it last night along with everyone elses. And this morning while watching the end of Marathon Man on AMC, I found myself contemplating it again. (I was watching a segment in the movie where the lead protagonist, who has lost everyone he loves and has been tortured brutally himself is about to torture the villain, an ex-nazi and unrepetent killer. The protagonist makes the villain eat his diamonds, after eating one - the villain calls him on it - says: you won't shoot me, you don't have it in you. you're weak' and in this case the protagonist doesn't - the villain does himself in. But it left me wondering what if he had? And what is it that makes us into a monster?)

Okay with that preamble - I want to adress the points you made and my quibbles as well agreements with them:

1."Faith made the same argument to Buffy when she accidentally killed the deputy mayor: that killing one human being should be considered and even outweighed by all the lives she's saved as a Slayer, an argument that was rejected by Buffy. I just don't think the show is telling us to weigh the fact that Willow has helped to save the world in the past in considering Willow's ability to be redeemed. Taking a life is crossing a line in the Buffyverse that other beings with souls have not crossed without being punished. At least, at the moment, I can't remember any."

This is actually more comparable to Buffy's reaction to accidentally killing Katrina then I think it is to Willow.
Buffy doesn't believe acts of goodness can outweigh killing an innocent. Even if it's by accident. Faith accidentally killed an innocent with the Deputy Mayor. The Deputy Mayor was coming to get help, to turn in the Mayor. In the sequence in Dead Things - the same thing appeared to happen with Katrina - asking for help - but Buffy accidentally kills her. (Well not really - the trioka tried to frame her for it...but you get the picture.)

Now lets contrast this with Warren. I think everyone agrees by now that Warren was a homicidal sociopath who killed without remorse and was planning to kill more. If not? Rewatch Villains. Smashed. Gone. Dead Things. Seeing Red.
Warren ordered the freezing of a security guard, attempted to kill Buffy three times - once with an invisibility gun, once with his bare hands while empowered with orbs, and with an actual gun, he killed his ex-girlfriend and attempted to rape her and was planning on letting his friends rape her, he tried to kill Xander, he did kill Tara, and he stole a diamond, did a heist, and stole money from a bank. HE was not an innocent.

Faith kills an innocent professor and a harmless demon who is trying to sell information.

Willow kills Warren (see above), Rack (a horrible warlock who is a spell-dealer and molester and rapist and may not even be human (couldn't tell)). As far as I know she didn't kill anyone else. Giles and Willow are about even in the body count (Giles killed someone in his 20s doing the Eyghon thing as reported in the Dark Age and he killed Ben in the Gift. One was an innocent possessed by a demon and one was an man possessed by a hell-god).

What Willow did do that distinquishes her from Faith and Giles is she lost control of her emotions and let the power take over to the extent she tried to destroy the world. And it could very well happen again. I honestly don't think a prison would hold Willow. Willow is more powerful than Faith. Both women did however choose to seek help. Faith chose bars over the watcher Council - in Faith's case that was actually possible. Willow would have chosen jail as well but they couldn't go there - they'd have to prove she killed Warren. Sunnydale inhabitants have incredibly annoying habit of pretending things that don't make logical sense didn't happen. So she does as Giles advises.

I do agree with you - I think Willow's trials and tribulations are far from over. But in rewatching STSP last night I did get a kick out of the Anya/Willow scenes and the Gnarl scenes - it was pretty obvious the writers were making jabs at their audience. LOL! "It's no fun doing vengeance if we can't beat you with your own ribcage and you don't cry out please don't" - you need to feel the pain.
People in our society seem to feel an almost disturbingly over-powering need for vengeance.

I've learned no matter how much the wrong-doer is punished, it doesn't relieve the pain. No satisfaction. Killing them almost seems too kind - pain gone. Punishing them forever in prison? Well it makes me feel much safer, (that is until I actually visited a federal prison and learned way too much about the criminal justice system for my own good,but that's besides the point;-) ) And I feel that way with Faith - Faith truly seemed to like killing. Willow - i don't feel that way about, maybe because from the start Willow conveyed a sense of not liking to kill. The difference is when Faith killed - it felt like she wasn't out of control. Willow felt out of control to me. Now don't get me wrong I'm not making excuses for Willow. I'm just saying there is a HUGE difference between why Willow did what she did and why Faith did what Faith did.

2."You also state that in the Buffyverse, "Willow has undergone trauma that would leave a normal human incapacitated." What trauma is that? Because many people suffer the trauma of losing a loved one to violence without resorting to vengeance, even with the means and opportunity. I'm just not comfortable with justifying her actions because of the death of Tara. "

Someone told me once that we aren't given more than we can endure in this life. If that's true than there are a few incredible saints out there and a few incredibly weak people - because seems to me that some us bear a heck of a lot more than others. At any rate...I'm not sure Dream or anyone else is justifying Willow's action because of death of Tara.

I think Tara's death was the final straw for Willow. This girl has been struggling for quite some time with some heavy duty issues. She acquired way too much magical ability way too quickly without any training to speak of. And it is established early on - way back in Season 3 actually how Willow's emotions are conveyed through her use of magic. In some ways it reminds me of the explanation some paranormal psychologists give for poltergeists or telekinisis displayed either in the houses of volatile teens or by volatile teens. The child feels they cannot exhibit or show these volatile emotions for fear of being rejected so it gets bottled up and suddenly bursts like the teakettle unable to let off steam. This is what I saw happening with Willow.

Tara, as is foreshadowed in OAFA, is Willow's control. We see Tara acting as a magical control for Willow pretty much throughout Season 4, Season 5 and parts of 6. When Tara stops acting as the control - Willow's magic gets really dark and scarey. In Tough Love - Tara is taken out of the game and boy does Willow unleash it. By the time Willow is able to bring Tara back, Willow has done some things that have Giles shaking his head in concern. Separating Spike and Xander. Setting up a barrier field to keep out hundreds of Knights. Damaging Glory. Entering Buffy's mind. So that when Tara comes back - Willow has gone beyond Tara's ability to act as a suitable control as is evidenced by the
two times Willow mindswipes Tara. However - because Willow needs Tara's support and love and acknowledgement, Tara is able to get Willow to stop doing magic for awhile, to not express her pain in this way. So Tara begins to act as a control again. We see in OAFA that Tara is the one in the kitchen doing a spell to release Willow from the house - instead a killer demon is released. Well - that's what happened in SR. Tara is killed. Willow's dark side is released.

To compare Willow's loss of Tara to someone's loss of a loved one in the real world, I'm not sure is a good comparison. You have to remember the Buffyverse bears little to no resemblance to our world except by analyzing its metaphors. Willow didn't just lose a loved one. She lost a part of herself, her control, a twin if you will, a part of her soul. Willow's loss of Tara could be compared to Justine's loss of her twin sister Julia on Angel - it's that loss that caused Justine to go bonkers.

On top of losing Tara - Willow has a few other issues. She brought her best friend back from the grave and the best friend ain't happy about it. Then the same person who ripped Tara from her (Tara = Willow's Spirit, metaphorically, so it's not unlike the slayer who ripped her spirit from her in her Restless Dream), almost kills Buffy. On top of this Willow is dealing with serious daddy issues - her father has not been present in her life, she's adopted Giles, but Giles leaves not once but twice, leaves her in charge and conveys that he's not needed. He only comes back for Buffy - not Willow. That has got to burn.
There's also serious jealousy and envy going on. And a lot of self-hate. Plus the small fact that Willow at an early age learned the plural of apocalpyse and has had to help save the world five to six times. All this led to her ultimate nightmare - losing control of the negative energy boiling inside her. Every day she struggles to control it, to keep it in check. And it is a lonely struggle.

I agree her power is frightening. But I don't feel the same desire that several fans seem to feel to see her get punished. Maybe because I see her as a fictional character? Maybe because all the characters with the possible exception of Tara have committed horrible acts? Or maybe because Willow's acts last year didn't make me hate her.
(I guess whether they did or not have a lot to do with how you felt about Warren and company. I personally hated the trio. Some fans loved them. We all have our buttons.)
Or maybe because I see Willow punishing herself more than anyone else can? I certainly see Spike and Anya punishing themselves more than the others. Actually I think all these characters punish themselves quite a bit. And since their creators are sadistic gods - I see them being tortured and punished quite a bit more in the months ahead, and since I'm a little on the masochistic side - I'm sort of looking forward to it. ;-)

3."Willow's actions in the past with regard to the bad consequences of her careless use of magic - I'm thinking "Something Blue" and "Triangle," for instance - don't give me confidence that she can learn from what she has done and take responsibility. As Dawn said in Same Time, Same Place, when do we start blaming Willow? But, as you say, it is early and there's a lot more to tell us, I think."

Completely agree - One hopes that she has found some balance or control. But until she learns to share with the others and listen to their concerns...we may see more wonky spells gone haywire in the months ahead. Hopefully they won't spend too much time blaming Willow and more time trying to help her? Because blame never helps anyone. All it does is create more negative emotions. Accepting you've made a mistake, as i believe Willow mentions more than once in STSP, is a start. And I found it reassuring that Buffy not only listened to Willow but offered to help her.

Good post. Made me think through some stuff. SK

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Just like to point out. . . -- Finn Mac Cool, 13:21:18 10/12/02 Sat

Faith also killed the courier for the Box of Gavrok in "Choices". For some reason, I rarely see this counted among her body count.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: He was a bad guy - More fodder for the Mayor -- BloodLust central, 13:59:55 10/12/02 Sat

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> And I think he was a vampire. -- shadowkat, 14:13:24 10/12/02 Sat

Would have to watch it again of course. But I'm pretty sure the courier was a vampire and not a harmless demon. Just like the one with the draconian weapon was in This Year's Girl. If we start adding the demonic villains to the body count...well,Buffy outnumbers everyone. LOL!

(Speaking of which has anyone tabulated Buffy's number of on-screen slays?)

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: And I think he was a vampire. -- Finn Mac Cool, 14:34:17 10/12/02 Sat

No way he could have been a vampire. For one thing, he didn't turn to dust, Faith had to cut the hand off his body and everything. Second, since there was no demon makeup on him, I'm assuming he's human. Albeit, he was an evil human doing deals with the Mayor, but a point made many times on Buffy is that just because someone's evil doesn't make it OK to kill them. As for including demons on the body count: that particular demon was a harmless, "good" demon. A precedent has been established to regard such an act as being evil. It's not always displayed as bad as killing a harmless human, but it's still not all kosher. The demon messenger in Who Are You doesn't count because he was clearly the Mayor's lackey, which makes it doubtful he was of the non-threat to humanity persuasion.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Couldn't be - -- Darby, 14:35:24 10/12/02 Sat

...it would have confused the issue of getting the box separated from his shackle - she cut through the arm to get the box, remember-? And a vamp would have dusted from the arrow or been pretty much unaffected. Having a vamp in that position also gets into the fuzzy area of how much of a vamp's accoutrements dust when they do, but that's a discussion for another day...

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Ok...memory hazy..sorry. You're right -- shadowkat, 14:49:08 10/12/02 Sat

I forgot what he was in that scene. So Faith has:
1. Deputy MAyor
2. Candy Stripper (woman in hospital she kills in This Year's Girl)
3. harmless demon
4. courier
5. professor
6. tries to kill Angel
7. tries to kill Willow
8. tries to kill and tortures Wesley
9. Mayors lackey (This year's girl) so may not count.

That's 8 innocents or 6 if you don't want to count demons.
She killed 5 not counting demons.

Can you think of any more I've missed? Been a while since I've seen Choices - and since I'm not a big fan of spiders, not really looking to watch again at the moment.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Ok...memory hazy..sorry. You're right -- Finn Mac Cool, 15:16:33 10/12/02 Sat

Actually, in This Year's Girl, they took care to mention the girl was "horribly beaten" but they never said she was dead.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> On-screen slays -- Isabel, 20:16:01 10/12/02 Sat

I haven't, but I do know that Buffyguide.com does have Body count in their episode synopses. It keeps track of everybody, not just Buffy's slayings. I think they're behind though, so it's not up to date.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: On-screen slays -- aliera, 21:03:39 10/12/02 Sat

just wanted to see a happy-dance tonight.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Faith vs. Willow -- Laura, 19:46:08 10/11/02 Fri

I agree with you Faith is much more of a murderer even though Willow did try and destroy the world but she was in deep pain from having Tara so brutally ripped away from her.
And she had just got her back.

[> Re: Random comments about 7.3 Same Time Same Place (spoilers up to and including) -- shadowkat, 12:27:25 10/10/02 Thu

You weren't alone. I felt it was incredibly slow as well.
Very frustrated by the amount of time it took for Willow and company to figure out what was going on.

"I guess I was too anxious to see the characters get together and interact. It felt like there was a lot on hold, and that not even Willow could move on before we got through this episode. But maybe that's the point."

Yep that was exactly how I felt. The pacing was slower.
I think part of that was due to the gimmick. Stop. Rewind.
We often found ourselves rewatching the same thing twice.
The one time that it was the most slow - was in the house when we see Willow come in and then go down to the couch to sleep. Then see B/X/D enter and look for her then sit on the couch. That took at least 20 min or it felt like it.
This approach by itself will slow things down and they employed it four-five times. The most interesting time was in the basement with Spike - we finally had interaction, but that also took a while.

I also noticed the polarization in the fan base. It's even worse on other boards. Straight down the middle.

[> [> Re: Random comments about 7.3 Same Time Same Place (spoilers up to and including) -- Slain, 12:50:10 10/10/02 Thu

I think I enjoyed this about as much as Beneath You - that is, while Beneath You had probably the best single scene so far, the main plot of the episode wasn't of the same standard. I liked the pacing of Same Time Same Place, partly because it made the episode seem longer, though the 'gimmick' wasn't really necessary; while I don't think it detracted from the story, it certainly didn't add to it. This kind of retelling has been done before (I can't think of the example), and I thought it was too self-conscious to work.

I'm not overly concerned by the polarisation of fans, and I'd be more concerned if everybody was happy - it was fairly obvious, I think, that those who want to see a lot of Spike, and very little of Willow, Dawn or Xander, were going to be very disappointed by this episode. I think the first two episodes moved very quickly to restablish the original tone of the show, to constrast with Season 6, and that to an extent they may have moved too fast for many; certainly the ending scene of BY showed us that Season 6's angst is far from over, and that we can't just leap back into the less serious style straight away. That's really my summing up of other's reactions - personally I've liked the way the season has developed so far, and I think I'd have ultimatedly been disappointed myself if the expected Spike-centric episode followed BY; even though, after 7.02, I wanted to see more of Spike and Buffy. Instead the writers have done both the unexpected, and what some fans didn't want. I really prefer the show when it does this.

[> Re: Random comments about 7.3 Same Time Same Place (spoilers up to and including) -- Solitude1056, 12:47:48 10/10/02 Thu

Actually, what bugged me the most was a lack of continuity. I won't accept "it's the F/X element," cause anyone behind the camera could've (and should've) caught this one.

When Anya is kneeling next to the invisible Willow, she's at Willow's side. Anya warns Xander to step back, because he's standing on Willow's head. When Anya leaves, Buffy and Xander remain exactly where they are - and when Willow did make her appearance, she should've had her head at their feet. Instead, when she materializes, she's at a right angle to her original position - in other words, they're now standing (without moving) at her side! I was like, hello? Isn't anyone paying attention? I mean, I could forgive the boom mike appearing in the shot over the winnebago - that can be a hard detail to catch, just a quick glimpse... but this? moving the whole body at right angles to its previous position? who is this director guy? and why didn't the actors comment, if he didn't catch it? or were they really sleepwalking through a boring episode and didn't even realize? see, now that's a bad sign.

(Although I did love Dawn's expression - and eep - as she lurched off the sofa when the demon was killed.)

[> [> Re: Random comments about 7.3 Same Time Same Place (spoilers up to and including) -- acesgirl, 16:49:24 10/10/02 Thu

"Instead, when she materializes, she's at a right angle to her original position - in other words, they're now standing (without moving) at her side!"

This really bugged me too. I normally don't get all worked up about stuff like this but it totally took me out of the story for a moment and I hate it when that happens.

[> Exactly how I felt - and I love Willow and want to see as much of her as possible -- Dochawk, 13:10:23 10/10/02 Thu

I hadn't realized what it was that frustrated me so about this episode and your right it was the pacing. And the pacing was deliberate, still I wanted to see the resolution much more quickly.

[> I'm in the EXTREME minority here (spoilers up to and including) -- Aislinn, 17:03:30 10/10/02 Thu

Well, I'm one of those few that actually liked this episode. I could have done without the eating of Willow. I guess they considered it poetic justice, but I think it was a lil extreme, the way they did it. Anyhow, I honestly (don't think I'm a monster here) didn't mind Willow skinning and killing Warren as much as I minded what she did to her friends.

Anyhow, I kinda liked the change of pace with this episode. It gives us a little room to breathe before we find out more about the big bad or have more extreme Spike/Buffy scenes. My favorite scene was the one with Spike...I think Marsters did quite a good job with that, actually. That man just steals the show...hey, can HE be the new Slayer when SMG goes? Umm...maybe not.

All in all, I really liked this episode. It was a little disconcerting when Willow appeared on the wrong side of Buffy and Xander, but it didn't bother me too much. Obviously someone was either pressed for time or not paying attention. Maybe both. Anyhow, I'm looking forward to next week. :)

Aislinn

[> [> And I told my non-Buffy Friends to watch it! -- Luna, 20:18:21 10/12/02 Sat

Now they think it's all Hannibal Lecter. Oh, well, with this board who needs friends (except Willow)?

Roll call: What do you think of new, "scary" Dawn this season? (season 7 spoilers) -- Rob, 09:50:36 10/10/02 Thu

I'm totally loving her, and that's saying a lot, since for the majority of mid-season six, I kinda wanted to, take a line from Anya, beat her with her own ribcage. At the same time, I understood why she was acting the way she was acting, and wanted to not be annoyed by her but, ya know, it was kinda hard. But I vaguely remembered liking her immensely in season five. Now, the love is back. I love Scary!Dawn. I love her gleeful excitement at figuring out that the demon was Gnarl. I love her puns ("It's smellementary!" had me ROFLMAO), and I loved her reaction to being un-paralyzed. I am glad that I don't have to convince myself to like her anymore. (Last year, I would watch her saying, "You like her. You do. I swear!") Now I really like her again. And I'm so glad she hasn't just been HelplessDamsel!Dawn this year, but has been doing some good butt-kicking and swift thinking herself.

Anybody else reevaluated their opinion of Dawn?

Rob

[> Love New, Scary!Dawn. What the writers have done with her is... -- cjl, 10:02:03 10/10/02 Thu

Turn Dawn into the first, fully-functional 2nd generation Scooby, for whom Sunnydale weirdness is as natural as breathing.

The analogy I like is Kids and Computers. The 40 year-olds, the ones who did everything on electric typewriters when they were kids, work on computers every day, but for a lot of them, computers still aren't "natural." There's still a part of the primitive forebrain that's not used to the speed of the Information Age, and responds to written, not visual stimuli.

Similarly, Buffy, Willow, and Xander still remember part of their adolescence when the world was "normal," and there weren't vampires, demons, and ghouls breathing down their necks 24/7. Dawn, on the other hand, got introduced to the weirdness at age 10(?), and the weirdness is normal to her, the natural state of the world. There's no disconnect, no brief "am I really researching flesh-eating demons?" moment to distract her from the job. She is a 21st century Scoob in full flower.

["Eep!" (Dawn tips over.) ROTFL!]

[> [> Dawn Is fun to look at but... -- funny_syphilis_guy, 10:23:44 10/10/02 Thu

other than being a grade A fox, there is not much going on there. She seems a little too... well... "Dawnie" for my taste. I thought her finest moment was shaking "it" right in the camera in OMWF. If I were her I would have gone with Sweet, now THAT would have been original. MT needs more acting lessons and fewer lines. With JM biding time as a nut-bag and Giles, Tara, and Willow gone, the only thing scary aout Dawn is much the writers are willing to bend the show over to feature her. I am with Dark Willow, I bid the Powers-That-Screw-You to bring Tara back. And further more Buffy IS always rescuing people, "it's kinda pesky."

[> [> 10? -- meritaten, 16:44:07 10/10/02 Thu

If Joyce didn't find out about Buffy's calling until the end of season 2, doesn't it follow that Dawn wouldn't have (really) known until then? She would have been more than 10, right?

[> [> [> Re: 10? -- pr10n, 17:34:11 10/10/02 Thu

Buffy kept journals about her early slaying experiences, since Ted the Robot threatened to expose her "madness" through the diary he thefted from her room.

So hey, maybe the monks plotted Dawn as a diary sneaking little sister. Certainly not the first. That would pu the discovery at mid S2 at the latest -- but the Vanished?Monks have pretty much total control of the backstory.

[I love backing and filling for ME. They need us, they really need us!]

[> [> [> Re: 10? -- Miss Edith, 17:49:04 10/10/02 Thu

The past was changed since the monks put Dawn in Buffy's house. Hence in BvD Joyce didn't know about Willow and Tara dating and makes an innocent comment about wanting to give up on men sometimes and you girls will understand some day. Dawn makes her first appearance at the end of that episode and in Real Me it is revealed Joyce gets uncomfortable when Dawn beings up the things W/T do together. A clear discrepency.
And I think Dawn says in ITW that when she was a child Buffy chased her around the house saying "I'm the slayer I'm going to get you". Bascially we don't have the same memories as the characters and ME have an excellent excuse for plot holes. They can simply say things happened differently from how we remember them, because of Dawn's presence.

[> [> [> [> It doesn't have to be a discrepancy. -- Isabel, 04:42:52 10/11/02 Fri

Perhaps you're right that the presence of Dawn causes Joyce to know that Willow and Tara are lesbians. Until I read this thread, I always thought that in the intervening days between Buffy vs. Drac and Real Me Joyce got clued in somehow.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: It doesn't have to be a discrepancy. -- Miss Edith, 09:31:29 10/11/02 Fri

I just assume that the creation of Dawn caused an alternative world such as Jonathon's world in Superstar. Having a little sister around in earlier seasons must have made a pretty big difference and we know the scoobies memories have been messed with.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: It doesn't have to be a discrepancy. -- Rob, 11:21:47 10/11/02 Fri

This is actually what I thought of in "Normal Again," when there was that whole controversy about whether Buffy's memory of being taken to the mental institution were real or not, and whether it was a continuity error, etc. One of the theories I came up with was that if it did "really" happen (and was not just a side effect of the Queller demon's stinger), then it may have been part of her altered memory, since Dawn entered the equation. Maybe the fact that Buffy had a little sister who she might influence with her wild Slayerly tales is why Joyce and Hank sent Buffy to the mental ward. But then again that didn't really happen, in the strictest sense of the word, but only happened in their memories. But if it happened in their memories, does is matter that it didn't really happen? Wow, I'm getting philosophy-zy!

Rob

[> She just needed consistency from the writers. And ya gotta like Posable Dawn. -- Rochefort, 10:36:54 10/10/02 Thu

[> Dawn's great and getting better every episode... -- ZachsMind, 11:24:15 10/10/02 Thu

She's taking initiative now, which is fun. The actress has always been good but the character has left much to be desired. She's finally coming into her own.

The character I love to hate now is Anya. Pesky. Bossy. Whiny. Insulting without the amusing sarcasm she once had. She's too coldhearted to be human but too warmhearted to be a demon. So the writers have writ themselves into a corner and don't know what to do. She's not as funny as she used to be. And in this week's episode she started flirting with Willow which, after the loss of Tara, is just a major burr in my side with Anya now.

Anyone who fed into the shark frenzy against Dawn last year should turn their attentions to Anya now. She's the one deserving of OUR scorn.

[> [> Don't diss my Anyanka! She's the cutest demon in our dimension! -- Rob, 11:49:28 10/10/02 Thu

But seriously, I find Anya's plight all the more touching now. She has gone from a comic character to one with true poignancy. I adore the irony that now she has returned to being a demon, she is more human than she ever was before. Anya's character development was a slowly evolving arc, always in the background of the main story, and now I'm glad it's in the forefront. As for the "flirting with Willow" thing, (1) I laughed harder at that than any other thing she's ever said; (2) it was so incredibly Anya...and she wasn't really flirting with her. She was just matter-of-factly stating that, since Willow had gotten "sexy" with the last girl she did this spell with, then...

We have seen Anya, in order, as Anyanka the Evil Demon, Anya the frustrated demon who has now discovered herself human again, Anya, struggling to modify her demony brain to human standards, and now Anyanka, the demon with a humany brain, struggling to return to her demony ways but finding her conscience getting in the way. And the last one is the most compelling incarnation of the character we've seen yet.

Now let's get back to Dawn.

Rob

[> [> [> Wow! d'Herb! Go you with the board archiviness! -- Rob, 12:16:24 10/10/02 Thu

[> [> [> Don't diss my Dawnie! -- ZachsMind, 12:35:54 10/10/02 Thu

The latest installment of buffyradio.com's mp3 online radio talk show includes a reading of an email I wrote them that stipulates some of the reasons why people shouldn't be dissin' on my Dawnie.

[> [> [> [> Um...I'm the one who started the "Yay Dawn!" thread. So ya don't hafta convince me. -- Rob, 13:01:27 10/10/02 Thu

[> [> Re: Dawn's great and getting better every episode... -- Aislinn, 16:33:55 10/10/02 Thu

I love MT...I think she's a very talented actress and a great addition to the show. Having said that...I was very upset by what the writers did to her last season! I had to suspend a LOT of disbelief for that one...and she was SOOO whiney! I think she's great, now, and I'm looking forward to her future growth. Sense of humor, ablity to research...they are molding her, aren't they? :)

As for Anya...if the ground swallowed her whole, I wouldn't shed a tear. I never EVER understood why Xander was with her, or really, how anyone could stand her. But, they have done some major turn arounds before--I never thought I'd be rooting for Cordy, either.

-Aislinn

[> [> Re: Dawn's great and getting better every episode... -- meritaten, 16:58:06 10/10/02 Thu

She's not as funny as she used to be. And in this week's episode she started flirting with Willow which, after the loss of Tara, is just a major burr in my side with Anya now.

I was initially annoyed with Anya for this too. Then I realized that she is lonely. This is the first time anyone has come to her as a friend for months. Granted, Willow wanted help with her own problems, but she treated Anya as a friend and comrade (or at least as much as she had done prior to Anya redemonization). Also, Willow was not judgemental about Anya's job. I think something inside Anya was just responding to friendship, but she was surprised and uncertain how to react.

[> [> Totally disagree on Anya(nka) -- HonorH, 19:47:06 10/10/02 Thu

You noted she's "too coldhearted to be human and to warmhearted to be a demon". Well, to quote Buffy, duh! That's her conflict this season. She stopped being a human because she got hurt and imagined she could just take up with her old demon life again. However, as we've seen, she can't. The writers haven't written themselves into a corner. Anya is, to quote the Big Bad Whatever, exactly where they want her. She's got the Scoobies on one side, and as we saw in STSP, she still cares about them at least enough to help Willow and come a-running when Buffy asks her to look after Posable Dawn. She knows they don't approve of her granting gory wishes. And she's also got residual human feelings. On the other side, she's got D'Hoffryn, Halfrek, and whatever the evil that's rising is. She's going to have to come down on one side or another very soon here.

And it might just be me, but I've been enjoying Demon Anya. I thought she was cool in "Grave," looking after Giles, and I'm totally into her storyline this year.

[> Dawn is great, Michelle Trachenberg is great - all is well in the world -- Slain, 11:59:59 10/10/02 Thu

[> Re: Roll call: What do you think of new, "scary" Dawn this season? (season 7 spoilers) -- Thomas the Skeptic, 14:19:31 10/10/02 Thu

Everyone already knows I love our "little Dawnie" so all I can say is ... Hell yeah!

[> Re: Roll call: What do you think of new, "scary" Dawn this season? (season 7 spoilers) -- leslie, 14:33:05 10/10/02 Thu

"I loved her reaction to being un-paralyzed."

I loved her being paralyzed. Especially when Anya started playing Barbies with her.

[> [> Fun hyperbole -- Tchaikovsky, 14:35:05 10/10/02 Thu

Michelle Trachtenberg is the best actor on the show.

Dawn's character has the most potential on the show.

Roll on DtVS.

(Please do not attempt to read this without the subject title).

[> Go Dawn Giovanni! -- Finn Mac Cool, 16:09:52 10/10/02 Thu

I have personally always loved Dawn. More so in Season 5 than 6, but there are reasons (1)in Season 6 her character didn't really have a whole lot to do until she started being a bit more independent in the final three parter, (2)while I don't think Dawn is whiny, she did grate my nerves in Gone and Normal Again, and (3)she had almost zero interaction with Spike, which was one of my favorite parts of her character in Season 5.

Now, what do I think of the Dawn of Season 7? YAY!!! Dawn gets to be truly witty and funny, her best yet. She gets more to do in the story (warding off spirits and researching demons). Plus, Dawn has gotten a little scary/creepy. Her threat to Spike in Beneath You was menacing enough that he never once doubted Dawn would go through with it. And did she just seem a little too perky for a normal person while researching Gnarl? Well, go Dawnie, you're an all-star! Here's hoping the trend continues.

[> Haven't re-evaluated even a little bit. -- HonorH, 16:25:18 10/10/02 Thu

But then, I always loved her. I'm *so* loving that she's coming into her own now--secure in her sister's love and Xander's friendship, and growing to be the beautiful, *powerful* woman she's going to be.

"Lookit you glowing..." (7.3 spoilers & S7 speculations) -- ZachsMind, 11:52:08 10/10/02 Thu

SPIKE: "Lookit you glowing. What's the word means glowing? It's got a rhyme..."

Just in case anyone missed it, Buffy's glowing now. My interpretation is this is a clue. It means that Buffy may or may not be the Slayer, but that she's definitely what Dawn is. Buffy's a key. My reasoning is as follows.

1. Buffy "came back wrong." She is altered on a genetic level, as Tara's diagnosis and research indicated.

2. She's no longer technically human. Spike can punch her as easily as he punches the demonized Anya.

3. Dawn glowed in season five and six, but only magic types, some demons & crazy people could see her glow. Spike's a crazy demon type. He can now see Buffy glow.

4. Buffy closed the Glory dimension door at the end of season five, killing herself in the process. When she came back, She was still part key.

5. According to accounts in season five, when the monks made Dawn, they used Buffy's blood - her genetic makeup - as the inciting building blocks. So what Dawn is, Buffy is, and vice versa. Dawn's more like a clone than a sister. She never came from Joyce's womb. Buffy's dad Hank Summers had zero to do with Dawn in any respect. Dawn is 100% Buffy.

Dawn may still be a key. We know she was glowing at the S6 finale, because Dark Willow mentioned it. Furthermore Buffy has repeatedly demonstated her Slayer powers since her return in S6. So it's not quite that Buffy & Dawn switched places. However, they share the responsibility of keyness now, and we know now thanks to Spike that this includes Buffy glowing.

[> OR: glowing="effulgent" (FFL), "You glow" (HB) -- Indri, waxing metaphorical, 12:30:19 10/10/02 Thu

Your idea's more fun, though.

[> [> Or--all of the above, and maybe more? We don't have to choose only one! -- Dyna, 13:47:53 10/10/02 Thu

[> Actually... (spoilers for 7.3) -- darrenK, 12:38:02 10/10/02 Thu

...I believe it to be a reference to the scene in Fool For Love where William tries to tie the word effulgent, which just happens to mean shining or, if you'd like, glowing , into his love poem for Cecily.

My opinion on 7.3's double conversation is that Buffy is talking to the William personality and Willow is talking to the Spike personality. This is the reason that the "glowing" reference is made. If you go back and watch it, you'll find that around the time that William is looking for a rhyme with "glowing," Spike is especially interested in whether or not, Willow found any blood, "because it's always blood", at the murder scene. From the rat scenes I gather that Spike is having a little trouble finding a good source of blood that doesn't require chip/soul resistant human confrontation.

In the division of labor going on in Spike's psyche it seems that Spike's job is to find food and William's job is to check hall passes and find words that rhyme with synonyms for the word shining.

dK

[> [> It is possible that... -- darrenK, 12:43:12 10/10/02 Thu

...glowing has more than one meaning. It would be a rather artful deception to have us think it's a reference to FFL while it's really a reference to the Key, but it's more than likely that it's Spike/William's love for Buffy that makes him see her as glowing.

dK

[> [> [> Re: It is possible that... -- Chris, 13:27:09 10/10/02 Thu

Delurking for a moment...

Also remember that Spike said that Buffy "glowed" in Hell's Bells (several layers of meaning or several references tied into one unknown [at this point] meaning?). Food for thought.

[> [> [> [> Re: It is possible that... -- aliera, 18:55:38 10/10/02 Thu

Indeed, Chris...spoilery spec included.

[> [> [> [> Re: I thought that.... -- Purple Tulip, 08:56:22 10/11/02 Fri

...maybe he was just referring to how she is now---meaning that he could tell that she's a lot happier, she's in a better place---like in HB when he told her she was glowing, it was b/c she was no longer with him and she was happier than she had been---he couldn't make her glow on his own, but by ending things with her, he could.

[> [> Maybe Cecily/Halfrek also "glowed" like a demon -- alcibiades, 14:05:06 10/10/02 Thu

...I believe it to be a reference to the scene in Fool For Love where William tries to tie the word effulgent, which just happens to mean shining or, if you'd like, glowing , into his love poem for Cecily.

Just wondering you know, if William could sense Cecily was "effulgent" since she was already a demon and she is a little shining demon spark on the map. Maybe this is what he was seeing about her that he didn't understand and thought he fell in love with. Because it didn't seem like her effulgent personality was particularly starlike.

[> [> Ooh! That's good! -- ZachsMind, 20:27:21 10/10/02 Thu

Maybe some time in a future episode they'll do a scene where they play with the split personality thing going on in Spike's mind from inside Spike's head. The setting could be underneath the school. Spike's alone, and he starts talking to himself, but what we see is a sorta split-screen dealy where we see James Marsters playing William talking to Spike, and they admit that fighting with each other isn't working so maybe they can become like, roommates inside their head. Then they try to figure out when they get to take turns. Spike gets to come out when they feed because blood makes William nauseous. William says he can help when they try to woo women and then he recites some of his poetry and Spike says maybe he doesn't need William's help with the wooing, and they get into an argument over that and realize that they really hate each other and have absolutely nothing in common.

This is ripe with humor potential!

[> Glowing Higher Beings & Sparky? (spoilers 7.1-7.3, 4.1) -- Scroll, 13:32:54 10/10/02 Thu

Your post got me thinking of that other glowing being, Cordy. It's strange, but Joss is really hammering home the links between the two shows. Don't believe me?

Glowing
Our two leading ladies, Buffy and her lesser counterpart, St. Corduffy, are definitely "glowing". Also, Dawn is a glowy Key.

Sparky
Gunn calls Connor "Sparky" when Gunn and Fred find out that Connor had deep-sixed his dad in the ocean and has been deceiving them all summer. Warren the Morphy Big Bad calls Spike "Sparky" when saying that Buffy is a girl and won't understand. Spike goes out in search of a "spark". Lilah comments that Angel has a soul but Wesley is losing his. St. Corduffy is all sparkly and shiny in the heavens.

Poke Out Your Eyes
In one hallucination, Angel teasingly threatens to poke out Connor's eyes. Buffy pokes out Gnarl's eyes to kill him. Willow can't see Xander/Buffy/Dawn, and they can't see Willow.

King of Cups
Angel's goblet of water smashes onto the ground. According to Drusilla, Spike is the King of Cups.

It's All About Perspective
E.C. Escher. Willow and Xander's POVs.

"You may not be wanted, but you will be needed."
Willow. Wesley. Spike. Cordelia. (To clarify, Queen C is wanted, Glowdelia is not needed.)

"We all are who we are, no matter how much we appear to have changed."
Dom!Wesley. Dark!Willow. Soulful!Spike. Glowy!Cordy. Double00!Xander. Vengeance!Anya.

Dog
Spike. One of Fred's new slang words. Okay, this last one is kind of a stretch.

[> Re: "Lookit you glowing..." (7.3 spoilers & S7 speculations) -- Sophie, 18:34:48 10/10/02 Thu

This probably doesn't qualify, but didn't Anya "see" something different about Spike - that was how Anya knew that he had "changed". I watched and got "glow" and "soul" out of watching that, but I could be off. Just a thought.

[> [> oh, and... -- Sophie, 19:41:20 10/10/02 Thu

Interesting that you bring up seeing things as glowing. This episode is all about seeing.

1. Willow is reflected in a mirror at Anya's apartment while they do the spell
2. the demon is a side-effect of willow's spell to not see Buffy or been seen by Buffy
3. when a person's body is paralized by the demon, the eyes can still move and blink
4. and the demon is killed by his eyes being poked out

[> [> [> Nice insights, Scroll and Sophie (Spoilers, Lessons, STSP) -- Rahael, 07:47:43 10/11/02 Fri

I finally managed to see three quarters of Lessons last night (finally!) and noticed two foreshadowy things for STSP.

Buffy tells Dawn to watch out for invisible people and Dawn says that she feels pretty sure she isn't going to 'see' any invisible girl.

And when Dawn first gets attacked, the zombie tries to poke her eyes out. Perhaps someone has already pointed this out.

[> [> [> Eyes -- Cleanthes, 08:30:44 10/11/02 Fri

3. when a person's body is paralized by the demon, the eyes can still move and blink

Yeah, and how!

A tip for everyone who hasn't done it yet, the next time you watch `Same Time, Same Place`, do NOT let your attention stray from Dawn's eyes when she's paralyzed. Trachtenberg does an absolutely fabulous job displaying her whole emotional state merely with eye-movements.

[> [> [> [> Re: Eyes -- dochawk, 13:24:38 10/11/02 Fri

I agree, its pretty impressive. AH also uses her eyes to act in Gnarl's cave.

Just wanted to point out that eye movement muscles are voluntary and should have been paralyzed as well.