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Two Books Edited by Glenn Yeffeth - one on Buffy - one on The Matrix -- Walking Turtle, 09:27:11 11/17/03 Mon

This weekend I came across Two Books Edited by Glenn Yeffeth - one on Buffy - one on The Matrix.

The one on Buffy is entitled:

Seven Seasons of Buffy: Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers Discuss Their Favorite Television Show -- with Introduction by Drew Goddard.

The one on The Matrix is entitled:

Taking the Red Pill: Science, Philosophy and Religion in the Matrix -- Introduction by David Gerrold.

I have not read The Matix one yet but I enjoyed the Buffy one.

It covers the same ground as books by unversity faculty [i.e. Fighting the Forces: What's at Stake in Buffy the Vampire Slayer - R. V. Wilcox and D. Lavery (eds)] but it has essays by much better writers.

Most of the topics have been discussed on this forum; but if you are into critical essays give them a try

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[> The Search for Spike's Balls -- manwitch, 18:37:42 11/18/03 Tue

The Buffy book is pretty good. Good writing at any rate. I especially liked the essay titled "The Search for Spike's Balls." Buffy as testosterone-sucking vampire.

A lot of stuff in the book makes me think of Honorificus.

[> Re: Two Books Edited by Glenn Yeffeth - one on Buffy - one on The Matrix -- aliera, 04:30:29 11/20/03 Thu

I started the Matrix one recently myself. I'd be interested to hear what you think when you have a chance to read it. And if you like the essay format for that type of thing, the matrix movie website is worth a visit.

Eve -- David, 10:06:55 11/17/03 Mon

Hi I don't know if this has been asked before orhasbeen answered on the show but i'm in the uk so haven't seen the new season of Angel.

Eve says she is the liason between Angel and the senior partners but there's also the panther in the white room. So do the Senior Partners have 2 conducts or is Eve only for Angel like Lilah's replacement. Is she also a totem like Meseket was?. Thanks.

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[> Re: Eve -- luvthistle1, 13:54:49 11/17/03 Mon

No one is sure exactly "what" Eve is, or how she fit in. she seem to be a replacement for Lilah. but rather, or not she is working for the senior Partners , or working alone, no one knows for sure. But one things that's for sure, is that she can't be trusted, and the fang gang should keep an eye on her.

spike going to hell? -- aperitis, 14:25:26 11/17/03 Mon

i was thinking...was it spike's soul that was going to go to hell if pavayne had successfully pulled him in or would it have been his demon soul, or both? or does it take a staking for his soul to go to heaven and the demon to go to hell? explain if u can please? One more thing...i am watching "the thin dead line" right now and i am thinking that "anne" looks very familiar...was she on any buffy eppys?

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[> Re: spike going to hell? -- Vickie, 15:33:15 11/17/03 Mon

Anne was Lily (the BTVS episode Anne) who was Chanterelle (the BTVS episode Lie to Me). It's just a little bit of continuity for us fans, while not confusing the more casual watchers.

I always wished they'd done more with her. Presumably, she's still out there running the kid's shelter. Unless she died unter The Beast's great solar outage.

[> Anne -- Masq, 15:34:52 11/17/03 Mon

She was Chantarelle in "Lie to Me" and Lily in "Anne" on BtVS. Then she was Anne in "Blood Money" and "The Thin Dead Line" on AtS. Although she has gone by three different names, it's all the same character through both shows (as well as the same actress, obviously).

She matured a lot.

[> [> Re: Anne -- mamcu, 20:03:49 11/17/03 Mon

In "Anne" she took the name Anne in homage to Buffy ANNE Summers who used that name while on the run. Chanterelle/Anne said in that episode that all her other names were just assumed, and taking the name of Anne was her commitment to live for herself, not taking on different identities to please others. I haven't seen the AtS eps with her, so don't know if she was able to stay with that.

Come to my b-day party in chat! -- Masquerade, 19:44:40 11/17/03 Mon

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[> Happy belated Birthday Masq!!! Thank you for creating ATPO, You're the best. -- Briar Rose, 16:59:24 11/19/03 Wed

[> [> *Jeepers* -- Masq, 11:59:18 11/20/03 Thu

Thanks!

*blushes*

groosalsugg?? -- aperitis, 20:23:29 11/17/03 Mon

do any of you guys think that there is a chance for a return of groo in any capacity? did he leave on the last eppy of season 3?...i dont remember...anyway is there any capacity for him to fill on the show or can he contibute anything other than his utter gorgeousness?

Replies:

[> Re: groosalsugg?? -- Rook, 04:15:46 11/18/03 Tue

Well, while I liked Groo, he was really Cordy's supporting character (with a part time job as a contrast for Angel), so I'm not sure where his place would be with Cordy gone and Spike hanging around. They'd really need to develop him in another direction, and with 6 main cast members, plus Eve and Knox, I doubt they'd really have time for that this season without losing focus.

[> [> Re: groosalsugg?? -- luvthistle1, 03:32:19 11/19/03 Wed

Groo had more of a connection with Cordy then with any other member of the group. But he still could come back. If you consider that Groo lived in another dimension, and we yet to know rather or not the mind wipe spell affect him, and he has met Angel's son Connor,so he could be the one to reveal the "mindwipe". Groo shows up asking about Cordy. then ask Angel about how things are working between him and his son. Wes overhear them and decied to check into to it. Now that would be interesting.

darla Mark II -- aperitis, 10:06:31 11/18/03 Tue

i remember a post earlier on that almost the entire series of angel revolved around connor in some form or another...i was curious, was it jasmine who brought darla back so she could conceive or was it just an opportunity she saw to come about?

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[> Wolfram and Hart brought Darla back -- Masq, 11:09:40 11/18/03 Tue

Just to soften Angel up and weird him out and make him easy for W&H to pick on.

And that Connor post was kind of a joke. ; )

[> [> Re: Wolfram and Hart brought Darla back -- aperitis1, 12:03:00 11/18/03 Tue

i thought that was jasmines plan...to find a way to get to earth...and that meant tampering with some things to have events come about the way they had to for her arrival...and that meant having darla come back...didnt jasmine once say that she did the things i wrote above to have her come into being...and what connor post was it that u thought was a joke?

[> [> [> authorial intent -- sdev, 12:59:55 11/18/03 Tue

and what connor post was it that u thought was a joke?

Well Masq wrote the comment. So what we have here is a real life discussion of authorial intent. Were you joking or is this just an attempt at retconning?

Sorry Masq, I just couldn't resist given all the discussion on the subject.

[> [> [> Jasmine... -- Masq, 13:10:21 11/18/03 Tue

didn't officially enter the picture, so the story goes, until the mid-season 2 episode "The Trial". Angel tries to win Darla a second chance at life because she is dying of syphilis. He wins three trials and should have earned her her second chance, then is told by an emissary of the Powers that Be that Darla already had her second chance at life when W&H brought her back, and they can't give her a third chance because that's not what they do.

Angel is sorely pissed, because he was willing to give up his life to save Darla. A few months later, Angel and Darla have sex. At that point, Jasmine has a way to interfere. Angel earned a new life, and since they couldn't give it to Darla personally, they paid it back by making her mystically pregnant at the hands of the man who worked to earn her that second life, Angel.

So Angel and Darla are "rewarded" with a child. This is all late season 2, and is something Jasmine took advantage of to bring herself down to Earth. We don't have any canonical reason to think she was part of bringing Darla back to Earth originally at the end of season one.

[> [> [> [> uhm, not exactly---if we believe Skip... -- Seven, 13:41:33 11/18/03 Tue

In "Inside Out," Skip reveals that everything the gang has done since before the begining of Angel the Series was Jasmine's doing. To my memory, he at least mentions one event that happened pre-darla:

Gunn's sister being killed and vamped. If she had a hand in that, we can imagine she had a hand in numerous things.

Also, in uhm, "Happy Birthday(?)" when Skip is giving Cordy a tour of her possible life, he shows a television clip of episodes "City of" and "Hero." We can infer from that that if Skip was working for Jasmine then, that the events of those episodes were her doing as well... like if Cordy walked a couple steps in the other direction, she would have never been on the camera and the evil corporate vampire guy would never have seen her and Angel would have never have saved her and then maybe they wouldn't run into each other in LA at all.

My point is that one of the reasons Angel is so upset now is because he feels like the last 4 years of his (un)life have just been a manipulated means to an end.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: uhm, not exactly---if we believe Skip... -- skpe, 20:18:25 11/18/03 Tue

That is the point, can you really believe Skip? He is not exactly a reliable witness

Bring on the Night (spoilers S7) -- Celebaelin, 14:29:54 11/18/03 Tue

I've just watched the first BBC2 airing of BotN and, despite having borrowed the S7 tapes from Marie (I'll send them back if you want them btw) due to a slight compatibility problem (I guess) I haven't been able to decipher all the dialogue yet. The sound level is almost imperceptibly low in places. However I remember some debate about why the First and the Turok-Han would be attempting to drown Spike. I haven't read any explanation that refers to the following likely explanation but then again maybe at the time I was trying to remain unspoiled.

"Spike/First morphs into Drusilla's form.

DRUSILLA/FIRST: Kick a dolly when he's down. That was always your style.

Drusilla/First kneels to watch UberVamp kick Spike in the ribs so hard he rolls over. Spike lifts his head to glare angrily at the UberVamp. The UberVamp hisses and growls at Spike.

DRUSILLA/FIRST: Has buckets of energy, poor dear. He's been laying in wait for his moment since before the bug walked. (stands, walks to UberVamp) There, there, pet. (clicks tongue) Soon as the moon comes, you'll have your carnage. (looks at Spike) Little girls tear so easily, like pink paper. 'Til then, we'll have our way with this one. Got it coming, he does. (hums)

The UberVamp goes back to Spike, kicking him. Spike screams."

and more specifically, later

"21 INT. UNDERGROUND CAVE - DAY

Spike's head is thrust underwater, and he struggles under the force of hands that are holding him down. Pan out to show that it's the UberVamp holding Spike's head in a pool of water in the cave. Drusilla/First is pacing behind them, supervising. Finally, Spike stops struggling, and the UberVamp pulls Spike's head out of the pool and throws him on the ground.

DRUSILLA/FIRST: That's why our kind make such good dollies.

Lying face up on the ground, Spike coughs out water. He looks away from Drusilla/First.

DRUSILLA/FIRST: Hard to kill. Tried to enlighten little Buffy, didn't you? Spilled, spilled, spilled our secrets like seed. (reaches down to touch her dress at thigh level, slowly starts pulling up her skirt) But you forgot, I say what you tell and what you know. I say when this is over. (lets go of her skirt and puts her hands behind her head) And I'm not done with you yet. Not nearly. (clicks tongue)"

On Drusilla/First's command, the UberVamp picks up Spike and heads for the pool, forcing his head underwater again.

So it seems clear that the drowning torture is being done because it can't kill Spike, the First doesn't want him dead 'she' wants him on 'her' side although for the creator of all evil 'she' seems a remarkably poor psychologist from Spike's reaction.

"SPIKE: You're not Drusilla.

DRUSILLA/FIRST: (giggles) No, I'm really not.

SPIKE: She was crazier than you.

DRUSILLA/FIRST: (covers her ears with her hands) Ooh, daddy. No kicking. It's almost Christmas day today and you've gone spoiling it. I've been so very good all year. (growls playfully in Spike's face) But I could be bad if you like. (Spike looks away from her, but the UberVamp punches him in the head) Bad daddy. Needs a caning. Never learned his headmaster's lesson while all the school bells ring (mimes ringing a bell) and ring and ring and ring and ring...(bends down to whisper in his ear) Choose a side. Choose our side. You know that it's delicious. (feigns licking his face, but doesn't actually) What do you say?

SPIKE: (whispers) Dru, luv...

DRUSILLA/FIRST: Hmm?

SPIKE: Get bent.

DRUSILLA/FIRST: (stands, pouts) Stupid, stubborn daddy.

Drusilla/First holds her hands over her heart and walks away as the UberVamp starts pummeling Spike again. Drusilla/First swings her hips back and forth, watching Spike get beaten, and mumbles to herself.

DRUSILLA/FIRST: Ringing, ringing, ringing..."

Much of this (bold) didn't make the early evening airtime on BBC2 of course and I wonder how much of it reached screens in the USA?

Quotes courtesy of Buffyworld.

C

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[> Re: Bring on the Night (spoilers S7) -- phoenix, 16:02:07 11/18/03 Tue

I think you could well be right, this is the explaination that I came up with when I first watched that scene.

A little off topic but, a friend taped Season Seven for me when it was showing on Sky, there were some obvious cuts that I noticed, a few quite jaring. I have watched a few of the episodes now showing on the BBC, mainly because I was curious to see how much they cut it. Well...a lot. In CWDP I noticed about fifteen cuts from the version that I first saw, and I wasn't even looking that hard for them. It does make me wonder yet again why the Beeb always insisted on showing Buffy in that time slot because all those cuts really do lessen the impact. At the end of Season Six I was left seriously confused about what had happened between Dark Willow and Warren until I saw the uncut version of the ep. In the version that first aired almost the entire scene disappears. I am not advocating flaying as eary evening viewing, I just felt the need to once more vent my feelings about the BBC's programing decisions, especially as this season there are no late night uncut repeats. Bad Auntie Beeb, no biscuit.

[> Re: Bring on the Night (spoilers S7) -- celticross, 21:16:12 11/18/03 Tue

I know I'm hijacking a bit, but this post reminded me of something that bothered me the first time I saw this ep. Why on earth is First Dru calling Spike "Daddy"? You'd think the Evilest Evil Ever would know the Fanged Four well enough to know that *Angel/us* was "Daddy".

[> [> Daddy -- Celebaelin, 04:34:55 11/19/03 Wed

Maybe this is part of the psychological manipulation being attempted by the First. First/Dru is calling Spike 'Daddy' because he knows he isn't and Angelus is. Having valued Dru above all else for a century or so whilst they were stalking the dark alleys of the world this 'should' have produced a reaction from Spike. It seems he has something else to hold on to, no prizes for guessing what that is, but it sounds like the concept is outside the range of understanding of the First. Perhaps this is also why it doesn't produce a very good Dru, it is unable to reach her concept of the 'bestest knight in all the land' in this way. Perhaps because in some way she is informed so that part of her human will to be good in spite of her precognitive visions remains in her even as a vampire.

The idea that the First cannot comprehend love is undermined by Spike's trigger, unless you think Joss is saying that maternal and sensual loves are evil in a way that 'charity' (in the Old English sense) and unrequited (at least af far as S7 is concerned) love is not. Sounds likely to me, particularly in the light of the whole Angel/us debacle of S2 et seq. and the First/Buffy's manipulation of Spike in the basement of Sunnydale High earlier in S7. I can't say that I agree with this view as regards detached love being in some way purer but I'm pretty sure that that is what is intended. IMO if love can be evil at all and still be considered as love, which I doubt, then all forms of love would be evil, or at least grey. Actions not conducted for, or at least within, the best interests of the other(s) involved are no longer acts of love. If you can find a love to share with another 100% of the time? Count yourself lucky, but remember that letting go can be an act of love as well.

So much for love!

C

[> [> [> Re: Daddy -- MaeveRigan, 07:21:16 11/19/03 Wed

Here's another possibility: Spike is the "Daddy" of First/Dru in much the same way as Buffy is the "Mommy" of "First/Buffy" in "Chosen"--that is, the First appears as Dru only because that is a manifestation based in part on Spike's memories and knowledge of Dru, as well as (perhaps) on the actual deceased spirit of Dru--though it's never really clear to what extent FE has access to distinct personalities who may exist in an afterlife.

Buffy, obviously, is alive now, but has been dead, so the only way FE can manifest as her must be by some mystical process that says once she's been dead, her "face" is fair game. FE (and indeed, evil in "real life") produces nothing of itself--everything is taken--either directly or indirectly--from something that has or once had a positive existence.

[> Re: Bring on the Night (spoilers S7) -- s'kat, 09:14:45 11/19/03 Wed

Bring on the Night is an odd episode. The Spike torture in particular - at the time it was shown in the US, we struggled to understand the point of the torture. (All of the above script made it to US airwaves by the way. UK censors are odd. UK censors things US'd never censor over here at 8pm slot, yet UK lets things through at later time slots that US networks still censor.)

A little background - according to writer interviews, ME had intended on the water - being holy water, but the network/Fox nixed it. Also the bit where Spike screams before black-out? That was cut a bit short as well - some people online theorized that the ubervamp was meant to be shown raping Spike.

The point of the torture - may have been similar to the point of the torture sequences of Angel in S3/S2 BTVS and S1 ATS - to demonstrate he was being redeemed. Look, we are punishing him! The difficulty many viewers had at the time, was it seemed a tad over-top or gratutious (sp?).

That said - I think some of the FE/Dru bits on Spike are enlightening. Clearly - Spike had a thing about being the "good little student", could have possibly been the equivalent of a "Percy" in Harry Potter. The writers refer to this numerous times: 1) Lessons: "My board fell in the water, the chalk ran, I deserve to be caned", 2) Same Time Same Place: "Must check hall passes, there are things that are out of place", 3)" Needs a caning. Never learned his headmaster's lesson while all the school bells ring" - all of this leads me to believe school and doing well in school was important to Spike. Add to this his attitude as Randy, when he loses his memory - he's almost dandish.

The bit about Daddy - also gives us insight and echoes earlier themes - in Lie to Me and School Hard - Dru refers to Spike as Daddy. Spike refers to Dru as his Princess.
He's clearly her caretaker up to What's MY Line, where their roles shift. Also, when Angelus takes over the role
in Innocence, Spike is less than pleased - there's clearly rivalry there. This may be a reference to pre-oedipal or even oedipal leanings - which btw are the source of Spike's trigger and examined more thoroughly in LMPTM. We know very little about william's biological father - he appears not to be present and William's relationship from William's pov, not necessarily her's, is in some respects pre-oedipal, pre-sexual, he has no competition for her except for the demon sickness eating away at her. And he dotes on her more like a son than lover. We are not as sure about how she feels - since we remain firmly in his pov.

The FE uses these feelings against Spike. It takes hold of Spike's insecurities, failings and fears and twists them to torture him - to tempt him. "Oh, you're the devoted son? Hee. Then I'm your mommy!" Remember in Sleeper - the FE/Buffy acts a bit like a mother figure more than a lover.
Maybe even combines the two images along with the song.
Why? Because that's what Spike fears most - he fears he was attracted in a sexual way to his mother, that sex was all that she wanted from him, that she didn't love him. The fear that it was just about "bodies banging", that he was nothing more than a "thing" to her - also echoes his relationships with Buffy, Drusilla and oddly enough Harmony.
Spike ironically uses Harmony in the same way he fears that his mother and Dru used him - as a thing, someone devoted to him that he could use. It is in a way a projection of his own fears and pain. (Not unlike Angel does with Buffy in Innocence through Becoming - projecting what Darla did to him onto Buffy. Guise Will Be Guise examines this when the swami states - why don't you just find a cute small blonde, get her to become devoted to you, then break her heart like Darla did to you.) Spike does this to Harmony - he treats her in some respects the same way he subsconciously fears Dru and his mother really felt about him. Buffy does the same thing - but to Spike. She treats Spike the way she subconsciously fears men, including her father feel and treat her. (As she states to Holden Webster - my father cheated, he abandoned me...I didn't want to be loved or even admits to Spike - yes I used you.)
Spike desperately wants to be more than just a thing - to Buffy in particular. PArt of the reason he ends up attacking her in SR is this desire - yet ironically the attack results in re-inforcing the idea that he is "just an evil thing" and "their relationship even to him is nothing more than banging bodies" - or at least that's what his attack has reduced it to. No wonder he freaks and goes off to find the one thing that according to Buffy at least would make him more than just a thing.

The reason Spike went after a soul - was partly to matter, to be more than a "thing". His fear of being a thing.
Inconsequential. A puppet. Is what the first evil is using against him and that fear goes all the way back to when he was first turned - 140 years back. He can't really admit it to Buffy, since she's part of the fear. It's why the three people the FE uses to appear to Spike are: Dru, Buffy and himself. (It's odd they didn't usually have the FE appear as Spike's mom, but they may not have had the budget.)
It's not until Spike deals with this fear, this trauma that the FE loses it's control over him or it's hook. That's how the FE operates - it hooks into the characters fears and controls the characters through them. When the character faces it's fear, the FE becomes inconsequential.

[> [> Re: Bring on the Night (spoilers S7) -- Celebaelin, 11:54:19 11/19/03 Wed

The fear that it was just about "bodies banging", that he was nothing more than a "thing" to her - also echoes his relationships with Buffy, Drusilla and oddly enough Harmony.

Resonates with the 'make it hard' comment (?'make me hard'?), his soul makes sex for pleasure dirty. I don't know for sure what current thinking is on this but it sounds askew to me. That said, William, as the ensouled Spike must be thought to be, is a product of an idealised Victorian ethos (rather than the 'shag the undermaid but keep it discrete' kind of Victorian values) so maybe attitudes are better viewed from that standpoint.

[> [> [> Re: Bring on the Night (spoilers S7) -- s'kat, 12:20:51 11/19/03 Wed

Resonates with the 'make it hard' comment (?'make me hard'?), his soul makes sex for pleasure dirty. I don't know for sure what current thinking is on this but it sounds askew to me. That said, William, as the ensouled Spike must be thought to be, is a product of an idealised Victorian ethos (rather than the 'shag the undermaid but keep it discrete' kind of Victorian values) so maybe attitudes are better viewed from that standpoint.

Possibly, but Spike is such a sensualist. He loves and lives for physical sensations - drink, taste, touch. Even as a human, he had poet's tast for the sensual. So to Spike - sex is a wonderful thing, dirtier the better, while to William - the Victorian ethos - make sex without love or commitment unwholesome.

Actually, I'm not so sure Spike sees sex as dirty or bad per se. I got the feeling in Beneath You that the comment, "no touching, am I flesh? am I flesh to you? flesh. my flesh. make it hard - service the girl" related to how he perceived that "Buffy" perceived him and how she related to him, much in the same way he may subconsciously remember his demon mother perceiving him - as nothing more than a male prostitute or giglio. Buffy did after all use him in that way in S6 - as a sex toy. He was "not" a person so much as an object to use to both abuse herself and abuse him. Granted, the irony of that, is Spike prior to getting the soul did much the same thing to humans. I think the fact that he used to do it and that he fears others doing it to him - is what causes it to be a weak point with him.

[> [> [> [> Re: Bring on the Night (spoilers S7) -- Celebaelin, 16:12:22 11/19/03 Wed

I think 'Hey, not minding' says a lot. Unsouled at that point if memory serves but still, if we assume that what allows Spike to love is the informed part of his demon existence then this would not change, but guilt for his violence might/would alter his sexuality. Perhaps his 'love' as an unsouled vampire is nothing other than a lust so great for one person that it is externally largely indistinguishable from love, but if that is so then the 'make it hard' guilt trip (thanks for the clarification) is more difficult to explain. Perhaps, and this takes a lot of reading between the lines, Spike was a 'shag the maid' type, under his mothers' influence/with his mothers' tacit approval possibly. 'Just this flesh, service the girl' OK, so this is a portion of certain sexualities, the willing submission to, well, any number of things really but let's not complicate the matter let's assume a conventionally acceptable, nearly early evening broadcastable, form of congress. There's no reason to assume that Spike wasn't as willing a dupe to Dru as he seems to imply he was to Buffy. Given the 'maid' possibilities for sexual relief, possibly others as well (not loosing you 'chicks' out there am I?).

To go further in this regard in certain perceptions Spike is presumed to have been the (?willing?) dupe to Angelus' sexual whim as well. I don't want to add to the Spangelus fantasy but I have to say certain elements of the interaction do seem to imply some form of sexual interplay, this does not necessarily imply 'vampohomosexuality' but nothing I can recall precludes it.

Sooooo, if Spike was always a thing to be used, and William was a thing in search of a proper or appropriate (class/wealth) use, what is souled Spike? For a while it seems he is a useless thing, but he finds some use for himself in helping the SG and preventing the apocalypse. It appears that this is enough for him, although (AtS S5 almost entirely unspoiled) perhaps not enough for the PTB.

[> [> Holy water nixed? Why? -- Ames, 15:51:42 11/19/03 Wed

Why would the network or Fox nix the use of holy water for Spike's dunking torture? We've seen holy water and crosses used dozens of times to torture or kill vampires on BtVS and AtS? (e.g. Buffy slipping holy water to the vamp in Helpless, putting her cross in another vamp's mouth to make it talk, Angel having to traverse a hall lined with crosses to pick a key out of a bowl of holy water in an attempt to save Darla).

But how does dunking in ordinary water qualify as torturing a vampire? They don't need to breathe at all. Bit of a slip-up there.

Anyway, common sense would suggest that holy water is not a reasonable tool for the First Evil or its Ubervamp (which is, after all, a vampire itself). I would think that holy water would actually lose its blessing and its power if an evil being attempted to use it for evil purposes. Maybe that's what happened!

were cordy's strings being pulled when... -- aperitis, 20:28:42 11/18/03 Tue

she admitted to angel that they were in love and again when he went to talk to her in "Apocalypse Nowish" when she said "i love you" twice? I still dont get it...was Jasmine in control of her the moment she got back to Earth, the moment she got her memory back, the moment she slept with Connor, the moment she left sunnydale for LA, or all her life maybe? and was it part of jasmines plan for her to become part demon or to ascend to a higher plane...if so, why? sorry if im annoyin...

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[> Cordy & the gang's manipulation by Skip & Jasmine -- RadiusRS, 23:27:45 11/18/03 Tue

Cordy and Jasmine were one as of the end of "Spin the Bottle", when Lorne gives her the memory restoration magic stuff. In his voice over at the end of the episode, it mentions how "what really happened was:" and the scene is replayed and you see the Beast's eyes as soon as Cordy takes the potion and opens hers, Jasmine's indication to the Beast to get going. So to answer your first question, Jasmine was behind the wheel as soon as Cordy got her memory back, though it's safe to say that she manipulated the gang so that Cordelia would feel an outcast when she got back and shack up with Connor, setting the stage for Apocalypse now. In "Inside Out", Skip and Wesley state that Jasmine was dormant until Lorne's memory spell, and Skip says that Cordy receiving the visions, Gunn's sister being vamped, Lorne leaving Pylea, etc., were all manipulations by Jasmine's parts to move the pieces of her plan into a position to make the choices she needed them to make that would strengthen the chances of her plan working. All those things happened during or prior to season 1 of Angel, so it's safe to say Jasmine was a Master Strategizer and excellent judge of character. So when Cordy bumps into Angel (remember this is a girl whose emotions were so strong, she inadvertently changed the world in "The Wish", which is probably what attracted Jasmine to her), she sets herself on a path that allows her to be in a position to inherit the Visions from Doyle, which make her more of a champion and less of a superficial bimbo, a path which led to her becoming part demon in order to retain the visions, and which put her in the perfect position for Jasmine to use her as breeding cow. I hope this answers your questions but feel free to ask more as the other posters and I can probably answer them or give our theories.

what was the significance of... -- aperitis, 20:34:24 11/18/03 Tue

the beast? i mean...why did they even have that...was it there to make us think that it was the Big Bad, when in actuality it was cordy then Jasmine?

Replies:

[> Re: what was the significance of... -- Seven, 04:06:04 11/19/03 Wed

Yes and we can assume no.

vauge enough? We can never really know what Jasmine/Evil!Cordy's plans were for the Beast because Angelus kills it. What you said could also be said for Angelus. Why did she manipulate events to bring forth Angelus? If Jasmine was just going to make everyone follow her blindly, why bother? We can only really assume that the Beast and all the other events were nessacerry manipulations by Jasmine in order to bring forth her birth. Essentially, it is "insert your interpretation here."

You asked in a post below what was going on with Cordy in Apocolypse Nowish and my interpretation was that Cordy wasn''t totally in control but she was somewhat. She couldn't tell Angel that she saw the Beast. She says it was like something was preventing it. In my interpretation, Cordy was still behind the wheel, but she had a backseat driver in Jasmine who was very persuasive. It remained this way until later when Jasmine took over her body completely and we have the Evil!Cordy in Inside Out.
See, though, this is my interpretation. Other posters might believe that when Lorne performed the spell that Jasmine was in control immediatly and completely. It can all be interpreted differently. Except of course by the Fang Gang, who have a really jumbled perception of what happened. For some reason.
anyway, i hope that helps.

7

where to find the Cup of Perpetual Torment -- skeeve, 07:48:42 11/19/03 Wed

at Our Lady of Perpetual Resposibility in Lake Wobegon

Replies:

[> Sheesh! -- Celebaelin, 08:00:20 11/19/03 Wed

[> I thought I had it on my desk at work (Waste Management)... -- WalkingGhost, 09:18:15 11/19/03 Wed

[> I know it was created by the same force that created perpetual RERUNS! -- Briar Rose (curmudgeonly today...), 17:04:24 11/19/03 Wed

[> [> and the City of Los Angeles's automated Ticket Payment "System".... -- Briar Rose (peeved and poor now....), 17:06:33 11/19/03 Wed

[> It's the Atkins diet -- mamcu, thinly, 08:29:56 11/20/03 Thu

[> Obviously... (spoilers) -- Gyrus, 14:36:44 11/20/03 Thu

...wherever Mountain Dew is sold.

I just finished the infamous "Noir Angel" arc, and, gotta say, I was quite dissapointed -- Finn Mac Cool, 15:32:39 11/19/03 Wed

This afternoon, I saw "Epiphany", the final episode of the much talked about "Noir Angel" arc, where Angel seperates from his friends to wage war on Wolfram & Hart. I'd really been looking forward to it, but the end result was rather unsatisfying.

Granted, part of that was due to being thoroughly spoiled. Darla's turning, the wine cellar, "you're fired": I knew about them coming long before I saw them. But there was a bigger problem for me with the whole arc. Namely, that, except for "Reunion" and "Reprise", Angel really didn't do anything I had ethical problems with, and even killing the lawyers and trying to kill the Senior Partners were still pretty ambiguous. The only times here where I really thought Angel was doing the wrong thing was when he fired Cordelia, Wes, and Gunn, and when he tried to lose his soul with Darla. Almost everything else is nothing worse than I would have expected from Season 1 Angel.

And, you know, this could have been fine. Somebody doesn't have to be going down a slippery moral slope to have a dark/depressed period where he's isolated from his friends. But, as characters kept talking about Angel getting darker, losing his way, and his general ambandonment of the good fight, it irked on me since I just couldn't see what they saw. Angel still kept fighting for good after "Reunion", even though his motivations were a little on the obsessive side. For example, after he set Darla and Drusilla on fire, everyone tried to make it sound like this was a reprehensible thing, while no one batted an eye at incinerating Russel Winters back in "City Of . . ." Then, in "The Thin Dead Line", Anne says that at first she thought Angel was trying to help her, but he was really just using her to screw with W&H. They completely ignored the fact that a) hurting Wolfram & Hart indirectly helps people, and b) he did give her two million dollars. Throughout the arc, whenever other characters brought up Angel, they criticized every single thing he did. "Epiphany" really highlighted this for me. In it, everyone is royally pissed off at Angel, which I can understand; firing them was pretty harsh. The problem was that they seemed to blow it out of proportion. I mean, at the same time they're making it clear that they don't need him, that they can handle themselves, while also criticizing Angel for abandoning and betraying him. I guess my problem is, quite simply, I don't see what all the fuss was about. Angel did hurt their feelings, but it just doesn't seem like enough to justify their downright hostile reactions towards him.

If anyone can offer me a different perspective to make the Noir Angel arc more appealing, please, I'd love to hear it.

Replies:

[> Re: I just finished the infamous "Noir Angel" arc, and, gotta say, I was quite dissapointed -- RJA, 16:12:30 11/19/03 Wed

Just be thankful that you didnt view it as I first did - from a taped copy which jumped from Happy Anniversary to Belonging. Talk about a shift in tone, I had resentment for a long time. Or until I actually watched the season as it was meant :-)

Perhaps noir Angel is the wrong term to put to the season - I've heard Beige Angel used, and I think thats appropriate. Its not so much him flirting with the dark side in that he's crossing the line about what is acceptable and what isnt. In fact I think that line is only relevant as book-ending the arc, in locking the lawyers in the cellar and sleeping with Darla.

Because Angel isnt turning dark in the sense that he's morally ambiguous, but that he's losing his message. Rather than helping the helpless, it becomes about revenge and fury, all focused on Wolfram and Hart - due most likely to an understandable overidentification with the fate of Darla.

He wasnt fighting for good in the larger sense, but himself. Or rather the fact that he lost the chance to redeem Darla (and by proxy himself), it was all about getting revenge on those who denied that redemption. He didnt care about the larger mission, about helping the people who needed it, instead fighting a largely futile battle against what he thought symbolised all that was wrong in the world. Defeating Wolfram and Hart would have done good, but as pointed out, they couldnt be defeated that way. And trying to would only cause more destruction all round.

This is getting too long, so will try to cut it short - I think the issue in many ways was that doing good was secondary to fighting Wolfram and Hart (nowhere is this shown more than in Blood Money). I think the point is that the helpless were the ones of the most importance, and in forgetting that you lose sight of what is really important.

A point that perhaps would stand up rather better if they had actually considered the helpess at all over the subsequent couple of years :-)

[> [> And to appreciate the arc -- RJA, 16:26:00 11/19/03 Wed

I wouldnt view it necessarily as an arc in itself, or rather you can watch the entire season two and consider it as examining what Angel is fighting for, his purpose, his mission. Strong continuty from the first episode to the last, and I also think very strong thematic links to the current season.

What grabbed me though was not so much him going beige, but the Angel/Darla arc. The obsession, sexual tension, and how basically his vengeance for her is largely a reflection on his feelings about himself (IMO). That makes it more interesting than questioning his moral ambiguities alone.

[> Re: I just finished the infamous "Noir Angel" arc, and, gotta say, I was quite dissapointed -- Kenny, 21:03:11 11/19/03 Wed

Well, for starters, Angel didn't just fire the team. These are people who are dedicated to helping others. A few months earlier Cordy experienced the pain of everyone in LA. She knows how many people need helping. Since Wesley was born, his life has been about fighting evil. And Gunn's survival depended on it. They worked for Angel because the PTB had chosen Angel as their Champion. They stand in stark contrast to the Scooby Gang because of that. The SGs (aside from Giles) were Buffy's friends who ended up helping her fight evil because it was kinda cool. AI was a business that helped people, and they ended up being close because each member of the team had a desire to help the hopeless. They dedicate themselves to Angel and his fight because they believe he's as dedicated as they are. They all realize that they're secondary characters, and they're fine with it. That's especially striking with Gunn, who is used to being the big dog and willingly gives that up to help Angel.

So Cordy gets a vision. And because Angel's so consumed with hate and rage, he ignores the person who needs help. Everything they've dedicated their lives to, that Angel has supposedly pledged his life to, and he ignores it so that he can make sure that some people (some who might even be innocents) die. He didn't just fire them, he betrayed them and destroyed the basis of his relationship with them.

As for his other actions...he didn't plan on the shelter getting that money. He was happy for the mercenary to take it. Since Angel ended up with it, he passed it on, but he didn't really care. Before, he realized that how you fight was as important as who you fight. It went past the fact that he was ignoring the people he was supposed to help, he was ready to hurt those the people because he was angry at Wolfram and Hart. W&H had so clouded his mind that he was fighting the "big evil" that they made him forget that being a Champion was about protecting the people around you. This was mirrored in his story with Kate. He didn't care what happened to her as long as he got what he wanted. The "not being invited in" moment has been interpreted many ways; personally, I don't believe Kate died. Instead, I believe that the PTB allowed the rules to be broken. He realized that he actually needed to help others, and they allowed him back onto that path when he was ready. It was important for him to realize that he was still wanted, that someone still believed in him.

I believe the epiphany is important because it made Angel get his scope back and made him understand why that's important. Before, he gave lip service to the idea of helping people because it's right. He had conviction that pushing against Wolfram and Hart with everything he had was what was necessary to win the war. Instead, he realized that you can't fight evil like it's an entity. You build people up, you give them a chance to thrive, you give hope to to the hopeless. You enable others to fight evil themselves. You demonstrate love and compassion, things that evil hates. Angel didn't start to be a Champion until epiphany.

[> [> They can't have it both ways, though -- Finn Mac Cool, 04:37:09 11/20/03 Thu

Cordelia, Wes, and Gunn can't silmotaneously (sp?) chew Angel out for leaving them Champion-less and throw in his face how they are doing so well without him. If they'd just been mad and refused to take Angel back because he had left them without a way to actively fight evil, then I could understand the high amount of venom they display. But, if they go on and on about how they don't need Angel and can run AI just as well without him, then they don't have the right to be as cross with him as they were; some anger, yes, but not to the degree which is seen in "Epiphany" and "The Thin Dead Line". If they had gone one way or the other, I'd have been far more OK with it, but trying to play up both angles just makes them seem, well, a little over sensitive and unforgiving.

[> In addition to RJA and Kenny's points -- KdS, 23:32:00 11/19/03 Wed

I also got the strong impression that setting fire to Darla and Dru wasn't necessarily intended to kill them, and that his actions in Blood Money also suggest that he is indulging his sadism and torturing people rather than actually finishing them off.

[> [> Re: In addition to RJA and Kenny's points -- Kenny, 09:48:12 11/20/03 Thu

Most definitely. It's like when Buffy killed the vamp prostitute she found with Riley. Xander wasn't concerned that she killed a vampire. Heck, that's her job description. It's how she did it that worried him. It's the idea that the rightness/wrongness of an action depends on the intent and execution, not just the outcome. Angel's actions with D&D were pure hate.

Angel and Spike - Lack of Balance? -- Claudia, 15:34:00 11/19/03 Wed

[I think the reason Angel falls into this trap is partly for the reasons you state above - he doesn't trust his instincts, his heart. He relies on his head. Because he believes that inside his heart lies Angelus. (This is why I find it interesting that the Aztec Demon refused Angel's heart - for the rational reason - it's not beating. Yet in Angel's pov it's because it was Angelus'/the demon heart.
Non-heroic. ) Every time he lets his heart rule him - Angelus jumps out.

Spike is the polar opposite - to Spike - his instincts, his heart is his strength, he doesn't trust his head. It's an interesting contrast.]

Judging from this, one would think that both Angel and Spike seemed to lack a sense of balance in their natures. Angel depends more upon his head than his heart and for Spike, it is the opposite.

I guess that for both to develop, each vampire needs to rely more upon a certain trait that he has more or less ignored in the past. Angel needs to learn to overcome his fear of his passion and instincts. Spike needs to learn to overcome his impatience and think before he acts.

SWEET HOLY FLYING CRAP! (11/19 episode spoilers) -- RichardX1, 19:01:26 11/19/03 Wed

That was Lindsey, right? So, does this mean Eve's been lying about her connection to the Senior Partners from day one?

Replies:

[> Spoilers and Speculation -- Nino, 19:19:05 11/19/03 Wed

It's possible that Eve has been lying about her connection to the Senior Partners. It's possible that Lyndsey is now a Senior Partner. Did Lyndsey orchestrate this whole thing...all the way back to "Home" when Lilah gave the amulet to Angel? Was it supposed to fall into Spike's hands? Does Shanshu have anything to do with this at all? Where the hell was Wesley? And did anyone else expect that last shot to pan out to Wesley? I mean doing two evil W&H hotties? How cool would that have been?

This post really adds nothing to the discussion....but I think shows where we are in the season...We have a million questions and 14 episodes to go! This is how a season should work...loads of character development. Small arcs...and one Giant Evil a'brewin in the background till it explodes in May...where have we seen this pattern before? Oh yeah...."Buffy" seasons 1-5. I'm not gonna start bitchin about 6 and 7, cuz i liked them...and I liked that "Angel" kinda strayed from this formula in the first 4 seasons (season 1 didn't really have a Big Bad, season 2's Darla arc did not build up to a finale, season 3's Holtz and Connor stuff didn't surface very early either if I'm correct...and season 4 was one big episode). Again...I loved all of the seasons, but let's face it, the formula worked on Buffy...and I think its gonna make for the best season of "Angel" yet. And plus...Andrew and Cordy on the way...yay :)

[> [> Re: Spoilers and Speculation -- Corwin of Amber, 19:37:10 11/19/03 Wed

My first thought was is was gonna be Wes. Sorta glad it wasn't true, even if I would like to see him getting some. :)

Andrew *gag* *cough* *choke* *retch*. Maybe if he dies horribly...tossed down an elevator, beat to death with a video recorder, give me something...Is it evil of me to want to see a character die this much?

Cordy...I want CORDY back. REAL Cordy, not pod Cordy or St. Cordy.

[> [> [> Amen! Let's all pray for that! -- DorianQ, 19:48:56 11/19/03 Wed

[> [> [> LA Law -- skeeve, 07:40:52 11/20/03 Thu

got some serious criticism for giving one of its characters the shaft.
'Twas an open elevator shaft.

[> [> future casting spoilers in nino's & corwin's posts -- anom, who did *not* want to know, 22:35:27 11/19/03 Wed

Please label spoilers in subject lines or provide marked spoiler spaces in the posts themselves.

[> [> [> Uh... -- Philistine, 23:07:01 11/19/03 Wed

They look pretty clearly marked to me. I mean, "Spoilers and Speculation" isn't all that ambiguous.

[> [> [> [> There's a difference between "spoilers for most recent ep" and "future spoilers" -- Finn Mac Cool, 04:29:52 11/20/03 Thu

Unless someone puts the episode or whether or not it's future next to the spoilers, no one knows which is inside the post.

[> [> [> I'm very sorry...i thought "spoiler" was enough, but I'll be more specific in the future -- Nino, 13:55:47 11/20/03 Thu

[> Senior Partners -- Finn Mac Cool, 19:49:58 11/19/03 Wed

Didn't Eve make some comment about the Senior Partners being kept in the dark about what's really going on. So she may be connected to the Senior Partners but has another plan cooking on the side. Though, now I kinda wanna hop on the band wagon and say I wish they'd had Lilah instead of Eve; Lilah and Lindsey should have hooked up; as the two most prominent W&H lawyers, an L/L ship is so obvious yet the writers never even made a hint or small joke about it.

[> [> Re: Senior Partners -- celticross, 22:41:59 11/19/03 Wed

My overactive fanwankin' brain immediately thought that Lindsey's new tats and the runes all over the apartment (house?) are a way of hiding from the Senior Partners, whilst he works whatever mojo he's got cooking. And personally, I can't wait to see what that might be. :)

As for L/L...eh. They had such a rich relationship without ever going anywhere near sex, and after the marvellous tragedy that was Wes and Lilah last season, seeing her with Lindsey now just wouldn't ring true.

[> [> Maybe Eve is lying to everyone -- Ames, 07:42:34 11/20/03 Thu

Maybe Eve has brought in Lindsey as part of her own scheme, and she's feeding him lies as well. Maybe she's told him that Angel has gone bad, and that's why he's running W&H. Maybe Lindsey is connected to the cyborg ninjas, supposedly fighting for the forces of good.

[> [> Re: Senior Partners -- Claudia, 08:56:51 11/20/03 Thu

[Didn't Eve make some comment about the Senior Partners being kept in the dark about what's really going on. So she may be connected to the Senior Partners but has another plan cooking on the side. Though, now I kinda wanna hop on the band wagon and say I wish they'd had Lilah instead of Eve; Lilah and Lindsey should have hooked up; as the two most prominent W&H lawyers, an L/L ship is so obvious yet the writers never even made a hint or small joke about it.]

Honestly? I was never a Lindsay/Lilah fan. I sensed the chemistry.

[> Re: SWEET HOLY FLYING CRAP! (11/19 episode spoilers) -- MaeveRigan, 07:26:19 11/20/03 Thu

Are we absolutely sure it was really Lindsey? It looked like Lindsey, but the Daddy Wyndham-Pryce robot looked like R.W-P., too...

[> Re: SWEET HOLY FLYING CRAP! (11/19 episode spoilers) -- skeeve, 07:54:56 11/20/03 Thu

What did Eve accomplish?
Was it the escape of that archivist?
She seemed rather pleased with herself.

Why didn't Angel ask more questions?
I'd ask more questions about something called the Cup of Perpetual Torment before I'd want to drink from it.
Given that Angel already knew about the demon blood cure, he should have be extremely suspicious about a claim that the CoPT was the only way to become a real boy again.

Mountan Dew did seem appropriate.

Oh. My. God. AHHHHHHH!!!!!(no spoilers; just abject joy) -- DorianQ, 19:10:02 11/19/03 Wed

Replies:

[> Abso-friggin-lutely! Can't analyze yet. Need to sit down. Head is spinning! Man, this show rules! -- Rob (standalone season my ass!), 20:44:38 11/19/03 Wed

[> [> Re: Head is spinning! Man, this show rules! (5.8 spoilers) -- Cheryl, 20:52:41 11/19/03 Wed

Took the words right out of my mouth - or my email to my friends, rather.

Holy crap - that ending! It can't be Lindsey. He just can't be evil. Not after Dead End. Does he have an evil twin? ;-)

Spike's corporeal - yeah! And kicked Angel's butt. Okay, it was pretty even, but he DID get to the cup first. Poor Angel. Always being forced to rethink his actions and motivations. I really like how Spike keeps him on his toes.

But I missed Wes. He really should have been there.

I'll have to rewatch, but who was Gunn talking to on the phone? At the time I had the feeling he was having someone bring Drusilla, but I'm not sure. Maybe trying to reach Buffy? Time will tell I guess.

Guess we're back to square one as far as who the vampire with the soul is who will fulfull the prophecy. Great fight scenes, though.

Off to rewatch. So much happened this episode.

[> [> [> Re: Head is spinning! Man, this show rules! (5.8 spoilers) -- Rob, 21:09:24 11/19/03 Wed

It can't be Lindsey. He just can't be evil. Not after Dead End. Does he have an evil twin? ;-)

Or maybe he's good. After all, he is going after W&H. He may have thought that they finally got Angel to be dark when he found out he worked for them.

Rob

[> [> [> [> Re: Head is spinning! Man, this show rules! (5.8 spoilers) -- Cheryl, 21:17:17 11/19/03 Wed

Or maybe he's good. After all, he is going after W&H. He may have thought that they finally got Angel to be dark when he found out he worked for them.

I hope you're right. Maybe that's why it sounded like he was hoping that Spike would kill Angel (based on Eve's report). This is going to drive me crazy!

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Head is spinning! Man, this show rules! (5.8 spoilers) -- Masq, 09:36:29 11/20/03 Thu

If Lindsey wants Angel dead, it's a petty desire. "Darla liked you better than me!" "You made my career at W&H a pain in the ass!"

Oh, boo-hoo, lawyer-boy.

W&H seems the real target for Lindsey. Angel is secondary. If Lindsey can get Angel punched, kicked, dusted or otherwise hurt in the process of whatever else he is planning, that is just a bonus.

At least, that's what I'm hoping.

Masq, doing the Numfar dance of joy at seeing the first and original lawyer-boy

[> [> [> [> [> [> Puttin' on my boogie shoes(5.8 spoilers) -- Arethusa, 10:36:48 11/20/03 Thu

Are all those runes part of protection spells? Was Lindsey behind the cyborg attack?

Lindsey was always interested in power, the kind that ensures you'll never be vulnerable again. Has Lindsey really created a huge organization to fight evil? Or does he just want to make sure that whoever wins, he'll be a winner too?

What a wonderful suprise. I'm so glad that I didn't know he was returning.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Puttin' on my boogie shoes(5.8 spoilers) -- Masq, 11:29:22 11/20/03 Thu

Lindsey was always interested in power, the kind that ensures you'll never be vulnerable again.

I think that's a great insight. Awesome, in fact. It sheds light on why someone with an obvious conscience like Lindsey decided to work for W&H in the first place, and why he went back to them after his first chance to get out (in Blind Date).

Lindsey was born poor, saw his father controlled and destroyed by those with power, and Lindsey has this weakness, this flaw, whereby even though he is a basically good person, he fears being powerless.

I thought the runes were a protection spell against the Senior Partners. I mean, somehow Eve manages to create havoc at W&H in a way that (she implies, anyway) the Senior Partners don't like. You don't just manipulate and cross the SP. They are too powerful. You need protection.

I can't see Lindsey working with W&H anymore. I can see him working against them (maybe he sees a new vulnerability in them he can exploit--Angel is in charge). Working against them to gain the upper hand, gain power.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Perhaps the destiny game from "The House Always Wins" will come back into play -- Finn Mac Cool, 15:17:37 11/20/03 Thu

If it's possible to buy, sell, and steal destinies, than maybe it's also possible to make counterfeits. Perhaps Eve and Lindsey found a way to make a copy of Angel's destiny and implant it into Spike, knowing it would create the desired mayhem and fight between the two vampires.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Yeah, what about those destinies? -- Masq, 15:38:34 11/20/03 Thu

Angel was "The Vampire with a Soul" according to their technology.

Of course, I still believe the whole thing in "The House Always Wins" was a scam--let the buyer beware, you're spending money on nothing.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Puttin' on my boogie shoes(5.8 spoilers) -- Arethusa, 04:38:07 11/21/03 Fri

Thanks. :)

I hope we get to find out what the Senior Partners actually are this year. If Eve is doublecrossing them, she and Lindsey will need every spell they can get.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Robots.. -- neaux, 11:41:08 11/20/03 Thu

I wonder if Lindsey was behind the cyborg attacks.

Gunn says to Eve: "Quit Fingerin' my robots."
(or something like that)

and then the last scene shows Eve with Lindsey. So what does that mean?? Is there a connection? Is Lindsey a Robot? or head of the robots??

is everyone at W&H a robot?? why do I have robots on my brain?? arghh!! shazbot!

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Lol. Spoilers for Forbidden Planet and Season 5 to date. -- Arethusa, 06:27:22 11/21/03 Fri

(My little boy has a speech imparement, and for a year whenever he tried to say "thank you" he said "na-nu," just like Mork.)

Why would Gunn collect robots? Is it a hint? The most famous robot I can think of is Robbie the Robot, from Forbidden Planet. I consulted the mighty Google Oracle and found the following information:

"Forbidden Planet is arguably the best science fiction movie of the 1950's. In an era where Cold War fears materialized in mutated, giant insects, or alien invaders subverting all that was American, Forbidden Planet worked as all good science fiction does: it examines ourselves. Quite literally, it looked into the materialization of our own inner demons. While most '50s movies are marred by obviously wire strung rockets, rehashed radiation clouds or just plain bad acting, Forbidden Planet continues to view like a top of the line movie, some fourty years later.

The story of Forbidden Planet holds up so well because it is lifted almost straight from Shakespeare's The Tempest. Starring Leslie Nielson, Walter Pidgeon and Anne Francis, it tells the tale of a ship from Earth investigating the missing expedition to Altair IV. When they arrive they find that most of the crew had died nearly two decades before with only a scientist and his daughter still alive. The scientist's inner hate for all things foreign to the world begins to leathally manifest through the alien world's advance technology, especially once love blooms between the ship's captain and the scientist's daughter."

http://www.forbidden-planet.org/Robby/

"If Forbidden Planet is The Tempest, it's Shakespeare crossed with Frankenstein and a good mystery story. For at the core of the movie is an enigma, the Krell. The Krell remain the great unknown in the dramatic equation of Forbidden Planet. If Morbius' description of them as a "mighty and noble race" is correct, there's still a nagging doubt -- if they were so mighty, why did they disappear? And as the achievements of their civilization are revealed, that doubt deepens."

http://sfstation.members.easyspace.com/fbessay.htm

"It has often been said that the greatest enemy of all can be found within. In Forbidden Planet man is shown for the deep dark animal that truly lies within. Even with the gift of intelligence there exist deep dark desires in all people. Forbidden Planet shows just what can happen when these darkest of emotions are allowed to roam free unabated and unrestricted....

Finally the captain discovers the truth of this planet. The scientist has harnested a means of thought amplication from the krell. He uses a head device which can manifest dreams and ideas into reality. Simply put what you wish for will come true. This would seem to be the greatest gift in the world. But even a man of science has to discover painfully that its hard to control one's wishes. The subconcious mind and our dreams desire things that we would reject logically on the surface. Unfettered and unrestricted thoughts manifest monsters and death. These thoughts kill off the captain's crew and threaten to kill everything which remains on the planet. This technology in fact was what killed of an entire race of aliens, the Krell."

http://www.movieprop.com/tvandmovie/reviews/forbiddenplanet.htm

I can only guess if any of this applies to AtS, but I think it's interesting that we've seen Spike learn to bend reality to his will, which might make him very valuable to W&H. He's already noted how interested Eve is in his experiments on controlling his will. Also, Hulk Lorne was created out of Lorne's unconscious. And perhaps Spike can be said to represent what is going on in Angel's unconscious, expressing what Angel cannot.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> This is really intriguing... -- Ixchel, 17:55:27 11/21/03 Fri

Angel has also bent reality to his will. Who knows what will manifest from this?

Really fascinating information, Arethusa.

Ixchel

[> [> [> Re: Head is spinning! Man, this show rules! (5.8 spoilers) -- jane, 00:43:47 11/20/03 Thu

Can I just second that "HOLY CRAP" and raise you a "BLOODY HELL!" didn't see that coming at all.. Wow, awesome, gasp,gasp. Now, is Eve evil or not? She says she's not the bad guy, so does that mean Lindsay is good?? I really want to know what all the runes mean on his chest and on the walls. I agree with whoever suggested it might be a way for him to hide from the Senior Partners. Must watch this as soon as I get home from work in the morning, cause I missed the first 15 minutes, due to supper break being late. Won't be able to sleep til I find out how Spike got deghosted!

[> Finally! A must-see episode of Angel (spoiler) -- Ames, 21:47:16 11/19/03 Wed

How long have we been waiting to see Angel and Spike finally have it out about everything - Drusilla, Buffy, prophecies, souls, redemption, and who's the baddest? Great stuff! Kind of too bad neither hero can kill the other - leaves it without an ending...

[> What was everyone's exclamation to last night's episode? -- neaux, 04:32:44 11/20/03 Thu

I was watching with my wife who never watches the show

and then there was the ending revelation and I honestly said outloud..

HOLY $H!+

my wife was confused. heh.
do you speak out loud to the tv? what did you say??

[> [> Mine was, "Huh, interesting plot twist." -- Finn Mac Cool, 04:38:23 11/20/03 Thu

I get kinda detached sometimes.

[> [> Since, Matrix was much on my mind, "Woah! Dude!" -- fresne, 06:38:17 11/20/03 Thu

[> [> Mine was Evil Laughter of DOOM! -- Majin Gojira, 07:34:54 11/20/03 Thu

[> [> I yelled, "Oh My God!" paused the TiVO and sat completely shellshocked for a while, just processing. -- Rob, 07:37:18 11/20/03 Thu

Am I the only one amused by the fact that this season is now becoming just as complicated as earlier seasons? And the fact that the big plot twist at the end requires you to have been a fan of the show for a long time to appreciate the significance of?

Rob

[> [> [> I thought the exact same thing, Rob (vague 5.8 spoilers) -- Masq, 09:39:22 11/20/03 Thu

That surprise twist at the end was not for AtS newbies. It was a big fun lawyer-shaped present for us old fans, and for new fans who've been working to catch up with reruns and DVDs.

[> Random thoughts (spoilers 5.8) -- Ponygirl, 07:33:21 11/20/03 Thu

Happy happy joy joy, a good meaty episode to last us through next week's pre-emption.

First, a couple things that are bugging me. The flashbacks really didn't add a lot, and what a waste of Juliet Landau! Remember when Drusilla's lines used to mean something? A seemingly random comment about the King of Cups could be pondered over for years - and why did I think of that line hmm? I don't think anyone but Joss or Doug Petrie really gets her, though I'd be interested to see what Drew Goddard or Ben Edlund would do with a Dru scene or two.

The other thing is that the show desperately needs to fire their makeup person. The women are all overly made-up, the men under, and the bloody eye effect last night looked like the victims had an encounter with a bad pair of false eyelashes.

Anyhoo back to the good. Was so glad Spike's re-corp wasn't a long MacGuyver-like affair. Also liking that Spike wants to be friends with Gunn, it's so cute and they both could use some hanging out with people that they don't have years of baggage with.

The fight really was the centrepiece of the episode and rightfully so. It was an excellent fight, very well staged with all of the different levels and such. Best of all it demonstrated how effectively and completely Spike and Angel have messed up each other's lives. Though the cup turned out to be a fake I wonder about the show's habit of having even false prophecies turn out to be true. Irony, dudes.

The ending was unexpected. I'd thought they would just leave everything ambiguous again, but how perfect was it to find out that Lindsey was behind it. Lindsey, the one who walked away from Wolfram & Hart, the person who Angel probably could have saved, or at least helped more but never could bring himself to do so. No wonder Lindsey was in this episode. To keep going with the henhouse metaphor Angelus mentioned - all of Angel's failures are coming home to roost this season. The past never gets washed away no matter what you drink.

Have to wonder what opera that house had been playing. Judging from the props on stage - giant statues of a cat, a Buddha, a woman - the opera is our heroes' lives. They're too wrapped up in all of it to realize how perfect a set-up it is, a shiny gold cup on a pedestal and well lit. No wonder the Buddha is of the laughing variety, the joke isn't just Lindsey's but of the cosmic variety. I think it's going to be a while before Angel or Spike are going to share in the laugh.

It's true, no one does add toner. Bastards.

[> [> Opinion (spoilers 5.08) -- Claudia, 08:30:57 11/20/03 Thu

A bloody, intense and brilliant episode. I have this feeling that some kind of conflict has been set in motion with the scheming of Lindsey and Eve. Both James and David were absolutely fantastic - not only with their interaction with each other, but with that superb fight scene. I also have to commend J. August Richards for his portrayal of Gunn in this episode. I'm sure that he had fulfilled the fantasies of many by choking Eve. As for Sparmony - it wasn't as bad as I thought it would be. Loved the look that Spike gave Harmony, and how she finally capitulated. And it was good to see Drusilla again.

In regard to Spike's accusation that Angelus made him into a monster, he was right. Angel was also right in his accusation that Spike always had the ability to be a monster. Although Drusilla had sired Spike, it was Angelus who more or less taught the former how to be a first-class vampire. However, Angelus alone could not have been responsible for the creation of Spike aka William the Bloody. The darkness within William played a major part, as well. It seemed as if both vampires were trying to deny their own responsibility in the formation of the "Slayer of Slayers".

[> [> Re: Random thoughts (spoilers 5.8) -- Rob, 10:15:56 11/20/03 Thu

The flashbacks really didn't add a lot, and what a waste of Juliet Landau!

Actually, I completely disagree here. The flashbacks added a great deal thematically to the main thrust of the episode--the rivalry between Angel and Spike. For starters, it added a key piece of information into the mythology, that it was Angel who turned William to Spike (as opposed to Drusilla...now we truly know why Spike referred to Angel as his sire, his Yoda in "School Hard"). Some people had accused LMPTM of not fitting into the continuity by having Spike still act William-like after being sired, but it is revealed here that he retained his human qualities for a while, until Angelus was able to completely mold him into the killing machine he became. The fact that the act that truly pushed him over the edge was Angelus having sex with Drusilla even adds another layer to Angel's current hatred of (or at least problems with) Spike. Perhaps somewhere in the back of his mind, Angel believes that Spike's affair with Buffy was a shallow, petty attempt at revenge for his theft of Spike's "one, true love." And the fact that Angel and Spike were once friends before this betrayal adds a great deal as well. Angelus' challenging of the human concepts of fidelity is what starts William's evolution into Spike, as he starts breaking more rules of tradition and hierachy. Angelus had Drusilla for the sole purpose of suppressing the humanity out of Spike, crushing his will just as he had decimated Drusilla's sanity before that.

While I agree that Juliet wasn't given quite as much to do here as usual, her presence was crucial.

Rob

[> [> [> Dru who (spoilers 5.8) -- Ponygirl, 12:03:29 11/20/03 Thu

I agree that Drusilla was necessary in those scenes, but just because she is being used as the object/excuse to fight doesn't mean that she actually is. The thing I used to like about Dru is that even at her most vulnerable she seemed to be playing her own game, the players may have been all imaginary but there was a great deal more going on in her head. Heck, they could have given us a cheap thrill by having her drop a few references to future to her/past to us events. There just didn't seem to the poetry in Dru that there used to be and I miss it. I remember Delirium's line in Sandman, about knowing the paths outside Destiny's garden and always thought that summed Dru up pretty well, but lately not so much.

As for the flashbacks overall, I would have liked the master/student dynamic developed a bit more. Maybe a bit of Angelus' belief in the "artistry" of the kill and his fascination with pain. In some ways I felt like I got more of a sense of their past in the one scene in FFL than in Destiny's three. Spike's subsequent manners and methods were obviously a rebellion against Angelus' so I would have liked to have seen a bit more. I do think that Angelus' "want, take but never have" philosophy was very important to both of them.

[> [> [> [> Re: Dru who (spoilers 5.8) -- Rob, 13:04:29 11/20/03 Thu

I agree that Drusilla was necessary in those scenes, but just because she is being used as the object/excuse to fight doesn't mean that she actually is. The thing I used to like about Dru is that even at her most vulnerable she seemed to be playing her own game, the players may have been all imaginary but there was a great deal more going on in her head.

The way I see it is that it's all about perspective and P.O.V. These flashbacks were from Spike's perspective and so we don't get to see the inner workings of Dru so much, because her purpose in these scenes is to show what she meant and represented to William. Had we seen an inkling that Dru was more in control (in some way) than she seemed, or at least was playing a game, Spike wouldn't have been betrayed by Angelus but by both of them. It was important in this scenario for William to only be angry at Angelus, because he sees Drusilla as helpless in that respect. From Spike's perspective, Angelus took advantage of Dru's weakened mind.

As for the flashbacks overall, I would have liked the master/student dynamic developed a bit more. Maybe a bit of Angelus' belief in the "artistry" of the kill and his fascination with pain.

I don't think that was necessary, because we have seen Angelus' tutelage of one of his pupils before in "Prodigal" and can assume that after we see him set Spike on the path of evil in this episode that it will proceed similar to that master/student dynamic. Also, chronologically these flashbacks end just before Angel would soon have been teaching this artistry to Spike. First, he had to quash the last humanity out of him (which didn't completely work).

In some ways I felt like I got more of a sense of their past in the one scene in FFL than in Destiny's three.

I didn't get that in FFL's scene so much. I got a sense of the "family" dynamic but not so much the true rivalry that would lead to the incestuous fights over Dru in the second season of BtVS. This episode helped me understand how the relationship developed into the group in FFL, as well as the threesome in BtVS. That is not to say I don't adore FFL, but I did think there was a piece of the puzzle missing, which this episode filled in.

Rob

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Dru who (spoilers 5.8) -- Ponygirl, 13:27:58 11/20/03 Thu

I agree that all the elements you mention are there, they just weren't developed enough for my taste. I'm greedy!

Have you read Ramses2's post on Destiny over on ASSB? She makes some excellent observations about columns in the London hotel room and the Columns opera house and also how William's inquiries about whose home the hotel was tied into the W&H scene of Spike asking Angel for an office. I'm going to have to rewatch.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Interesting! I'll have to check that post out. Thanks. :o) -- Rob, 13:31:23 11/20/03 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Dru who (spoilers 5.8) -- Chris, 15:52:02 11/20/03 Thu

Do you have a link to the Destiny post on ASSB? Thanks.

[> [> Until now, Angel/us always got there first -- Puss, 17:32:52 11/21/03 Fri

Angelus was a vamp first. He was evil first. He had Dru first. He got a soul first. He had Buffy first. He was a hero first. But Spike did all those things with more awareness, more intention -- Angelus was a creative killer, but Spike killed Slayers. Angelus had sex with Drusilla, but Spike became her boyfriend for most of a century. Angelus got stuck with a soul, but Spike went after one. Angel loved (and was killed by) Buffy, but Spike voluntarily died for her. Etc...

So finally Spike gets to do something before Angel does it. Is he driven because of Angel (or anger or desire) or because it's right? "A little of each."

Drusilla quote in "Fool For Love" sounds relevant (spoilery?) -- Nino, 19:30:35 11/19/03 Wed

"The king of cups expects a picnic, but this is not his birthday."
-Drusilla in "Fool For Love"

Hmmm....the King of Cups? The victor who gets the cup of torment maybe? Birthday? Becoming human maybe? The fact that it is not his birthday, but he expects a reward...this is a fake out and he will not be born? And hey...she said this while Spike and Angel were fighting in a flashback, and Angel almost killed Spike.

Random coincidence? Probably...but then again....maybe not.

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[> Re: Drusilla quote in "Fool For Love" sounds relevant (spoilery?) -- luvthistle1, 07:53:28 11/20/03 Thu

Not random. Dru has always been a seer. she also told Spike in chrush that he tast like ashes, and something about fishes swimming around his head. that in some way predicted Spike's death in "Chosen".

Wasn't it Angelus who sang teddy bear picnic? in the song, "picnic" was methphor for "slaughter".

so the king, which could be someone who's pulling their strings.

[> [> Re: Drusilla quote in "Fool For Love" sounds relevant (spoilery?) -- angel's nibblet, 18:30:48 11/20/03 Thu

Wasn't it Angelus who sang teddy bear picnic? in the song, "picnic" was methphor for "slaughter".

It is??? My dear sweet Lord, my whole childhood was a lie!

[> Re: Drusilla quote in "Fool For Love" sounds relevant (spoilery?) -- Spike Lover, 09:44:12 11/20/03 Thu

But WHO is the King of cups? Spike or Angel??

Good observations, by the way.

A question that has been bothering me. (Spoilers for 3.5, 5.1 and the new one - 5.8) -- Max, 20:46:13 11/19/03 Wed

I have a question. There was a scene way back in season three, in "Fredless" where Gunn was impressed with the work of private detective that had been hired to track down Fred.

GUNN :(impressed) "And he tracked her down through an unaddressed envelope?"
(beat, bravado) "We could do that."

Back then the team was really not much in the way of detectives and might not be able to track someone from an unadressed envelope but now with the resources of W&H I thing there should be nothing that a regular detective can do that they can't.
Twice this season they have been sent a mysterious package through the mail. Why has no one even tried to trace the package? I don't even remember anyone looking to see if there was a return address or checking the postal mark. It may be that the person who sent these things has taken extraordinary measures to avoid being found, but why has no one even tried? You would think they would be curious.
Does this bother anyone else or is it just me?

Replies:

[> yeah, im hoping they address that -- Nino, 21:22:54 11/19/03 Wed

[> Re: A question that has been bothering me. (Spoilers for 3.5, 5.1 and the new one - 5.8) -- celticross, 22:26:42 11/19/03 Wed

Considering the twist at the end of "Destiny", I've got a feeling I know who's responsible for those packages now...

[> [> Good point (Spoilers for 3.5, 5.1 and the new one - 5.8) -- sdev, 22:29:59 11/19/03 Wed

[> [> Absolutely, But..... -- Max, 10:01:48 11/20/03 Thu

That doesn't answer the question. No one (except the audience) knows that yet. My question is why doesn't "Angel Investigations" investigate?

[> [> [> Re: Absolutely, But..... -- Tymen, 10:14:34 11/20/03 Thu

Three reasons.

Primarily I think they assumed it was from the Senior partners or the Powers that Be, only now have they been reconsidering that thought process.

They've been pretty busy dealing with Wolfram and Hart.
No time for interesting side investigations.

It didn't really come into the forefront until this episode.

Now, I think we will see them looking into it.

[> [> [> [> Also, we can clearly see... ("Conviction" and "Desiny" spoilers) -- Rob, 10:25:24 11/20/03 Thu

...the envelope that the amulet came in. It had no return address. In fact, it didn't seem to have come through normal postage methods at all. While we don't see the package as well as we did the other, we can assume this is the case here also. Quite possibly, Eve secretly dropped them off in the mailroom.

Rob

[> [> [> [> Why the heck would the Senior Partners/Powers That Be use the USPS? -- Sheri, 15:08:49 11/20/03 Thu

The whole "oh, Spike must have been sent by the Powers" wanking by Fred never felt right to me. Is there some sort of trend among SuperNaturalSuperPowers to send magick-y things by mail instead of just zapping it to the FangGang/whomever directly?

[> [> [> [> [> Well, it also had to be dug out of thousands of tons of dirt and rock -- Finn Mac Cool, 15:21:19 11/20/03 Thu

Besides, "Angel" often contrasts higher powers with more mundane, everyday things (Skip, the talking burger, the Jeeves-like guy from "The Trial"). Why wouldn't they drop an the amulet into the mail cart if they wanted Angel to get it.

I'm not the Bad Guy.....spoilers for Destiny -- Rufus, 05:16:13 11/20/03 Thu

So, what the heck is Eve? Gunn wanted to know if she was a monster and almost strangled the truth out of her. As she left the office she seemed ready for some rest, some of her confidence gone, then we get the last scene that the Spoiler Trollops never got to see.........From "Destiny"

We open to a hallway and open door that Eve comes through and closes. The walls are covered in dark symbols.....not the bang but the word....;) She speaks as she takes her clothes off.

Eve: You know, funny thing about throwing the Universe out of whack....not as fun as it sounds. On the plus side they totally fell for the Cup of Torment thing....just like you thought they would. And, our Mr. Sirk - pulled off his vanishing act without a hitch. Right under the Senior Partners noses. And you might be happy to know....team Angel s on red alert. Could be they think the partners just fired a warning shot across their bow. Oh, and by the way....Spike didn't kill Angel, but they did beat each other to bloody pulps.

Eve slides into a bed with a man who has a shit-load of tattoo's all over the parts of his body we can see......tattoo's that look like the symbols on the wall. He draws Eve close to him and kisses her.....hmmmm this guy looks like Lindsey....gee things really are getting complicated aren't they?

Lindsey?: Well.....it's a start.

Questions, questions, questions......who is Eve and who is she working for? If she is representing the Senior Partners, how can she think that she would get away with a deception? Then there is Spike and Angel......they are now both too distracted by their proximity to each other to pay full attention to the cutesy blonde that everyone is underestimating. So, what do she and "Lindsey" want? How do they think they will get it, and why does it involve Angel?

One thing to mention, Angel reminded me of something Morpheus said in The Matrix: Reloaded.......

Morpheus: I have dreamed a dream, but now that dream has gone from me.

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[> a couple more eve q's. -- anom, 15:29:06 11/20/03 Thu

Could it be true when Eve says, "I'm not the bad guy"? As far as I can tell from my unspoiled perspective, that's a wide-open question. Is Eve a snake, or more of a mole...& one planted in the Fang Gang, just in the LA office, or in W&H generally? All of the above? As Ames suggests in another thread, she could be lying to all of them, incl. Lindsey. If they're trying to do good, they have a strange way of going about it, manipulating people who you'd think would be on their side. That seems more in keeping w/a power grab. On the other hand, it's hardly more underhanded than some things we've seen the good guys do. In any case, it's interesting to find there's a coup in the planning.

Could anyone tell if Eve still had the bruises on her throat in the last scene? If they healed by the time she traveled from the office to home (or Lindsey's place?), Gunn's suspicions may be well-founded. But his attempt to strangle her hurt enough that she says it's not so much fun....

[> [> Re: a couple more eve q's. -- Ann, 18:11:53 11/20/03 Thu

And she keeps saying that she doesn't know anything. That she is just the messenger. She says that at least four times in last nights epidsode. I keep thinking of an empty vessel. Everything is poured into her and put forth. I think she is telling the truth when she says she is not the bad guy. She is just the messenger. And we know what happens to the messenger.

We've come a long way since we last shook hands. Spoilers for "Destiny" -- Arethusa, 10:11:15 11/20/03 Thu

We've come a long way since we last shook hands
Still got a long way to go
We couldn't see the flowers since we last shook hands
Couldn't see the flowers on account of the snow

What did you do with your burden and your cross
Did you carry it yourself or did you crack
You and I know that a burden and a cross
Can only be carried on one man's back

All my life I wanted to roam
To go to the ends of the earth
But the earth really ends where you started to roam
You and I know what a circle is worth

Let's drink a cup to what went down
There's not much left to reveal
I think I changed my mind after what went down
As to who in the end got the better deal

Give me your hand for the parting touch
Fare thee well and thanks a lot
I know that we promised we would keep in touch
But you and I know that we both forgot

We've come a long way since we last shook hands
Still got a long way to go
Couldn't see the flowers when we last shook hands
Couldn't see the flowers on account of the snow
http://www.lyricsdownload.com/index.html

I don't know if ME has any fans of the Irish folksinger the Clancy Brothers, but the song fits well anyway.

Liam and William meet again, but this time the flesh is no longer weak and the ex-spirit is very willing to resume the rivalry where it left off. When our two heroes first meet they immediately engage in a pissing contest, one that Spike is determined to keep up with. Alpha male Angelus immediately sets the standard for William to live up to, and William tries to match him in willingness to endure and inflict pain. William is delighted when Angelus takes the priest officiating at a wedding ceremony at his words. "If thine eyes offend thee, cast them out," he says, and Angelus crushes his offending skull. The bride becomes take-out. But she doesn't fulfill his current need.

Dru: "I'm full and warm - yet all alone."
Angelus: "That's not true, precious. You've got us."
Dru: "Not in the least. You won't even have me just a little bit."
Darla: "All you have to do is ask."
Dru: "No. He's head's too full of you, grandmother."
(Darla)

"[She's] a bit dotty and brain-addled," Angelus says dismissevly of Dru. He had his fun with her, driving her insane. But Darla has gone back to her Master, and Angelus resumes having sex with Drusilla, who passively receives his attentions. To Spike, however, she's his destiny, his one and only. (Dru's happy to have them both, and we know she and Spike did at some time have threesomes, although we don't know with whom. (Crush*)) Spike has resented Angel ever since. Now, over one hundred years later, Angel has something Spike also calls his destiny, that he is certain only he deserves-Shanshu. Salvation. Spike is certain he's the hero, that he chose the right side, and Angel chose the evil one.

Spike: You made me a monster.
Angel: I just opened the door and let the real you out.
Spike: You never knew the real me. You were too busy trying to see your own reflection. Praying that there was someone as disgusting as you in the world so you could stand to live with yourself. Take a long look, hero. I'm nothing like you.
Angel: No, you're less. That's why Buffy never really loved you. Because you weren't me.
Spike: Guess that means she was thinking about you all those times I was putting it to her.

Angel is afraid Spike is right.

Angel: He beat me, Gunn....He won the fight....In the end, he...Spike was stronger. He wanted it more. What if it means that I'm not the one?

But what are they fighting over? In this episode, the prophecy is a misdirect-a way for Lindsey to manipulate Spike and Angel into fighting. Is the prophecy ME's misdirect too? "Please tell me I don't have to explain metaphor to you people," Sirk sneers. Is the Shanshu just a metaphor for being human? Is it living a human life, connected to others, involved in mankind, that makes us human? Could Angel discover after spending his life seeking out humanity like a prize at the end of the rainbow that he could have lived as a human all along, despite his condition?

Angel says, "That's not a prize you're holding. It's not a trophy. It's a burden. It's a cross. One you're going to have to bear until it turns you to ashes. Believe me. I know. So ask yourself, is this really the destiny that was meant for you? Do you really even want it? Or is it that you just want to take something away from me?" The pragmatic Spike, who has already been burned to ashes, replies, "A bit of both," and drinks from the cup. Spike, that most human of vampires, craves life and connection to this world.

Humanity is a burden and a cross, that we will bear until we are ashes. But only one man need carry that burden and cross. The rest of us need only to remember that it is how we live that determines whether we are humans or monsters.

*HARMONY: Who is - oh, wait. I get it. Our little sex game was just the beginning. Now you've gone and picked up some cheap queen of the damned to dress up like your precious Drood-zilla.
SPIKE: Harm.
HARMONY: You'd better not be thinking what I think you're thinking. 'Cause my answer is the same as always. No threesomes unless it's (gestures to Spike) boy, (gestures to the air) boy, (gestures to herself) girl. Or Charlize Theron.

Quotes from Buffyworld.com and my notes.

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[> Oh yes -- Ponygirl, 10:51:04 11/20/03 Thu

What is this cup of eternal torment that causes the drinker to feel the weight of the world until he chooses to save or end the world except life itself. And it was designed perfectly to capture both our vampires - Spike jumping at a chance to prove his worth, Angel of course focused on the sufferng and burden aspect. Neither of them really figuring out what they want or why.

I keep remembering the statue of the Buddha on the stage. The cup which is supposed to be all about suffering and here's the Buddha laughing with both arms raised and equally balanced.

[> [> The chuckling Buddha -- Gyrus, 14:33:18 11/20/03 Thu

I keep remembering the statue of the Buddha on the stage. The cup which is supposed to be all about suffering and here's the Buddha laughing with both arms raised and equally balanced.

That's only because Buddha can't wait to see Spike's face when he drinks the Mountain Dew. ("He expects a great blessing, but instead he will consume mankind's most horrible soft drink! Teehee!")

Didn't Buddha say that all suffering comes from desire? Spike is the one who "wanted it more"; maybe he'll end up being the one who suffers more.

[> [> [> Re: The chuckling Buddha -- Claudia, 15:05:41 11/20/03 Thu

[I keep remembering the statue of the Buddha on the stage. The cup which is supposed to be all about suffering and here's the Buddha laughing with both arms raised and equally balanced.

That's only because Buddha can't wait to see Spike's face when he drinks the Mountain Dew. ("He expects a great blessing, but instead he will consume mankind's most horrible soft drink! Teehee!")

Didn't Buddha say that all suffering comes from desire? Spike is the one who "wanted it more"; maybe he'll end up being the one who suffers more.]

Is this wishful thinking?

[> [> [> [> Re: The chuckling Buddha -- Gyrus, 20:36:26 11/20/03 Thu

Is this wishful thinking?

The part about the Buddha? Yes. The part about Spike suffering? No.

Why do you ask?

[> Re: We've come a long way since we last shook hands. Spoilers for "Destiny" -- Deaf (not a typo) Soul, 22:56:03 11/20/03 Thu

Dru: "Not in the least. You won't even have me just a little bit."

"Have" me? I've always heard the line as "You won't even hurt me just a little bit." Which made complete sense to me Dru-wise and was consistent with the lines, "Spankings for all", and "I'll tie her up, torture her, until she likes me again."

Sure wish Psyche's was still open so I could look at a shooting script.

[> [> I think you're right. -- Arethusa, 06:00:13 11/21/03 Fri

Buffy Scripts says "hurt," not "have."

Worst events of Buffys life? -- Drizzt, 10:12:37 11/20/03 Thu

What do you think are the five worst events in Buffys life from s1 to s7?

My take
1. Events of Normal Again(will explain in next post)
2. Removal from heavan directly into a coffin 6" underground
3. Death of Joyce
4. Time from 'book scene' wherin Buffy first feels helpless to protect Dawn untill her epiphany in The Gift. This worked out okay due to the epiphany
5. Killing Angel to save the world, this on the same day that Joyce & Buffy had a confrontation..Joyce"if you leave now, don't come back"(paraphrased)

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[> Normal Again -- Drizzt, 10:24:38 11/20/03 Thu

Note that IMO how Buffy felt was worse for Joyce's death and for when she came back from Heavan..than her emotional termoil of events of Normal Again. However, for me both Sunnydayle/Buffy and Asylum/Buffy have equal validity; IMO they are both real and at least tempararily telepathically connected to eachother. IMO they live on alternate earths..

IF both Buffy's are real, then BOTH Buffys would be 'losing' Joyce a third time wich is a tragedy.

Second is that Joyce would be 'losing' her daughter wich would also be tragic.

This oppinion is that the events of Normal Again are the worst objectively, if not emotionally for Buffy..and because she does not beleive the Asylum is real is why the turmoil & confusion happens.

Buffy trying to kill her freinds worked out okay because none of them even got crippled, so this is a minor part-relatively- of the tragedy

[> [> My Goal -- Drizzt, 10:37:58 11/20/03 Thu

My goal in life is to get to Sunnydayle physically via dimensional travel.

A gestault of the entire BTVS show would constitute my address metaphorically.

The show does not constitute evidence of Buffys existence. I have no evidance, only hope..

The specific time I want to arive in a universe with Buffy is the time of Normal Again because it is the worst thing to happen to Buffy IMO, and also because there is only a 4 day 'window' in wich the telepathic link between Buffy's is two way. It would probably be much harder to find the asylumverse when the telepathic link is only one way; I am in love with Sunnydayle/Buffy but if the other Buffy has the same personality I would also be in love with her, so I would want to help her get out of that asylum.

I would try to telepathically scan S/Buffy speciffically and only to locate the other Buffy in the asylum. Would only try twice; if I failled would be neccissary to explain in some way the telepathic link. Would of course explain about this anyway, but would have a larger time constraint if the telepathic scan succeeds.

My prefered method of explaining is indirect; a book called Paths To Otherwhere by James P. Hogan

[> [> [> Paths To Otherwhere -- Drizzt, 10:50:08 11/20/03 Thu

Options of how to get Buffy to understand that she is linked to her alternate.

1. Hi, there is a television show about you...wanna see? Ugh;(
2. Hi, would you like to teleport with me to the asylum to meet the other Buffy? Ugh;(
3. Note or conversation explaining that Buffy is telepathically linked to an alternate of herself? Not bad, but I prefer the book.
4. Paths To Otherwhere is a story about a scientific method of 'blinking' and experiancing the lives of your alternates. It is highly plausible as a future- and scary in some ways- technology. Buffys link is caused by a demon's magic venom, but that is incidental to the concept of the telepaty. The book has a very good spiritual and moral point wich would IMO make it emotionaly easier for Buffy to accept the phenomenon. And last, Buffy would basically figure it out herself probably if she read the book wich is better than having me or anyone else explain;)

PS. on the websight jrmooneyham.com is an artical called "Champions of Destiny" wich is slightly relivant and inspiring in it's own way. Just wanted to meantion that site; it is one of the most impressive on th web to me at least;-)

[> [> [> LOL! Take me with you!!!! *clutches Drizzt's ankles for dear life* -- angel's nibblet, 17:46:50 11/20/03 Thu

[> [> [> [> Re: LOL! Take me with you!!!! *clutches Drizzt's ankles for dear life* -- skpe, 18:40:55 11/20/03 Thu

I would rethink going to the buffyverse if I were you. as mr Trick said the death rate makes D.C. look like mabury. I think I'll take my buffy from the safty of my living room

[> [> [> [> [> Well I prefer to live dangerously baby ;-) -- angel's nibblet, 19:12:05 11/20/03 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> Re: LOL! Take me with you!!!! *clutches Drizzt's ankles for dear life* -- Drizzt, 13:07:52 11/22/03 Sat

Thanks for liking my post;)
Not worried about risks of Sunnydayle though

;-}

[> [> [> Invest in the Heinline Effect, my friend -- Majin Gojira, 16:21:44 11/21/03 Fri

If there are an infinite amount of alternate dimensions, then one of them would probably have the "real" Buffy in it...

[> [> [> [> Thanks;-} -- Drizzt, 13:09:01 11/22/03 Sat

[> [> My Motive -- Drizzt, 10:58:08 11/20/03 Thu

Why do I want to go to another universe?

1/3=I am in love with Buffy; want her to be my girlfreind.
1/3=I love Buffy; regardless of weather she is compatible with me RE girlfreind I would want her to be happy.
1/3=No shortcuts in my goal; have to become strong mentally/psychically wich would be good for my self-esteem. This one is more complex than that, but it is a valid summary.

[> [> Laughter on BTVS -- Drizzt, 11:06:41 11/20/03 Thu

There are many scenes that are funny to the veiwers, but how many times have there been things funny to the Scoobies?

Aside from Xander is there any guy in all seven seasons that got Buffy to laugh? Laughing AT Spike & The Nerd Trio is not what I mean. I mean a deliberate joke or silly action with the intent to cause amusement for Buffy?

If I get to Sunnydayle I would do four things within an hour that would make Buffy laugh. One is to give her a picture of the Nerd Trio, but modified so they all have large braws on their heads...this is basically a ripoff of my fave scene in the movie "Weird Science"

The other three things are funnier, but I'm not saying;)

[> LittleBit, when are you in chat? -- Drizzt, 11:08:47 11/20/03 Thu

[> [> Re: LittleBit, when are you in chat? -- LittleBit, 01:50:12 11/22/03 Sat

Hi Drizzzzzzt!!

I'm traveling this weekend, but I should be in chat most evenings from Sunday on. Probably from around 9 pm EST or so. God to see you back on the board.

'Bit

[> [> [> Kay;-} ,but 'God to see me' ?! -- Drizzt, 13:10:56 11/22/03 Sat

[> [> [> [> Heee... some things never change -- LittleBit [who still can't type], 18:50:12 11/22/03 Sat

Metaphors, Misleads, Brothers...Destiny (Ats 5.8 Spoilers) -- s'kat, 10:51:01 11/20/03 Thu

Destiny may be one of the best episodes of ATS I've seen. I was slightly spoiled for this episode and it was not at all what I'd expected. Not even close.

People on the spoiler boards had gone nuts and all out war between Spike/Angel fans ensued, silly fools - they were focusing on the wrong things. (sigh). Ats 5.8 is the one that the whole Wagner's Parsifal post and Schoepenhauer was about btw. Time to look it up in the archives.

This episode had tons of misleads for both the audience and the characters. The biggest one is...

THE SHANSHUE PROPHECY - which in the vampire world is almost akin to the Arthurian prophecy of the Holy Grail.

In this episode the Shanshu is brought to the fore again. Interesting. Why now? And more importantly by whom? And how does this connect through the seasons? I think the "who" is what connects it and why we probably shouldn't trust anything we've ever learned about it.

The Shanshue Prophecy first came up in S1 ATS Blind Date. (It was translated in To Shanshu in LA, but Angel stole the scroll for it in Blind Date - this is important. Because it answers two very important questions: 1) who did Angel steal it from? 2)who ensured Angel would find the scroll with the Shanshue prophecy? This is answered in Blind Date - an episode that coincidentally features Lindsey, Angel's nemesis for much of S1 and S2. In fact this is the first episode that really centers on the character of Lindsey.)

In Blind Date - Lindsey approaches Angel to save a bunch of blind telekinetic children (3 in all). He appears to be betraying W&H as well as his own client. He tells Angel where to get the files on the kids in order to locate them before the assassin does. Even sets up a means for Angel to get past security and the telepaths, putting himself at risk. As long as Angel concentrates on those files, they'll be fine. Does Angel? No, he's mysteriously drawn to a scroll in the secured vault and by stealing it sets off all the alarms - so that Lindsey can't escape the building and is discovered by Holland Manners. Manners lets Lindsey off the hook. Giving a nice little speech about Power. A speech that echoes the FE's speeches to Caleb and Spike in S7 BTVS.

Later in To Shanshue in LA - after Wes translates the scroll - W&H has a Vocah demon (who bears a striking resemblance to Jasmine by the way) steal the scroll back so they can use the scroll to bring back a human Darla. (Lindsay is the one who ends up using the scroll to conjure Darla by the way.) Angel attempts to stop them and slices off Lindsey's hand, causing Lindsey to hate Angel even more. (Lindsey had flirted with leaving W&H and joining AI in Blind Date, but changes his mind at the end of the episode after Angel steals the scroll...one can't help but wonder what Lindsey would have done if Angel hadn't stolen the scroll? Or better yet - if Angel had simply destroyed it?)

Once Wes translates the scroll, Angel and AI become obsessed with the Shanshu prophecy, doing all sorts of things to be the champion in it. He's the "one." Also the scroll/Shanshue Prophecy is why Vocah decides to blow up AI (injuring Wes), and make Cordy's visions more intense, and kills Angel's oracles. This by the way is the turning point in the pain of Cordy's visions and Angel's approach to heroism. It's also the beginning of the Connor/Darla arc and possibly the Cordelia arc? Would any of that happened if Angel had left that scroll alone? Probably. What if he had destroyed it? Angel also becomes obsessed with Darla. Then Connor. He doesn't really save the world or people very much during this arc? Does he? Not unless they are somehow linked to w&H, Darla, or Connor? All the while, W&H is egging him on. Lindsey finally fed up with W&H, Angel, and everything - leaves town with his newly attached hand, the last thing he tells Angel, is:"The best way of handling W&H is to not play their game, to make them play yours..." (very good advice, which Angel doesn't appear to follow.)

*Side note - Lilah seems to be to Cordelia, what Lindsey is to Wesely or maybe Angel. Also the Cordelia arc started with Lilah and ended with Lilah's death and ressurection, which brought ANgel and gang into W&H. The Shanshue arc started with Lindsey - it's not over yet.

Now, five years later, after barely mentioning it for two years, we have the Shanshue come up again. Interesting. Guess whose also been gone for two years? That's right Lindsey. The Shanshu thing was Lindsey's project. And we've barely heard it mentioned since Lindsey left town, have we? Eve is convienently the person who tells the gang that the universe is out of balance because there are two vamps with a soul. She deliberately brings up and focuses on the Shanshue prophecy. No one else does. Angel is in fact a bit annoyed by the reference. Who questions EVE? Gunn. Gunn says, wait a minute - we had two vamps with souls last year and no problem. EVE grasping at straws - grabs the fact that Spike wasn't a champion before. (Interesting, so do we believe her? What is a champion any way? Someone who helps others? Someone who saves the day?) Gunn, notice is the only other member of the gang affected by the red eye and he gets affected after he tells EVE he doesn't trust her and knows there's more to her than meets the eye. Gunn is credible until he attacks EVE and Fred saves her - so now EVE looks nice and innocent. Mislead number II - Eve. The nice cheerleader who conviently supplies the gang with all the info on the universe going out of wack. "I'm not the bad guy," she states.

Also, convienently, Wes has taken a leave of absence after the attack of the evil cyborgs (hmmm - wonder who sent them? And were they sent to get Wes out of the picture?) So Sirk takes over and gives a very nice "holy grail" tale coupled with the theory that only one vamp has to be accepted as the one with the Shanshue for the universe to re-align. Interesting. (I don't buy for a second that the universe is out of wack - but that someone has done something to make it appear out of wack.) What does this do? This pits Spike and Angel at each other's throats. They go off on a wild goose chase to an opera house in the middle of the desert to fight over what appears to be a holy relic. (Yet as Spike notes, it doesn't look like a cup of perpetual torment, way too shiny. Reminds me of the Indiana Jones quote in IJ and the Holy Grail. Something to remember about the Holy Grail - it's a story about redemption via redemption - the knight who finds the Holy Grail and brings it to King Arther, and Arthur's response to it - saves them both - their actions towards each other redeem them.)

After much fighting (which I'll get to later, b/c the true meat of the tale is what is going on in both the past and present psychologically between Spike and Angel, not the whole Shanshue thing. The Shanshue is the "mislead" - what's important is the relationship between the characters and their desires.), Spike finds out the cup is a hoax or at least believes it's a hoax since he drank moutain dew. Annoyed they return to w&H, wondering why they were set up. But still unduly distracted by the whole Shanshue thing.

Wait..."distracted"...I just re-watched the S2 episodes, where Wes and Cordelia and Gunn warn Angel not to let W&H distract him, which they of course manage to do with flying colors. Whose in charge of the distraction? Lilah and Lindsey.

Who is in the final scene in bed with EVE? Lindsey covered with runes. (Actually they aren't runes at all, they are anti-magic symbols - seen in a manga someone read, and if you compare to actual runes and magic symbols - fit the magic symbols. So what they do is jam magic. Interesting.)Or is it Lindsey? (Woo-hoo! On the return of Christian Kane. I really missed him.)

So, if I was an evil law firm who had to deal with a pesky vampire with a soul who was messing with my evil plans - what would I do? I'd come up with a way of distracting him. I'd manipulate him. And what's the best way of manipulating or distracting someone if you are a lawyer? Well two things 1) find their weakness. 2)Words baby. It's all about the words. And Angel was always into the whole prophecy/destiny thing - we got the oracles after all. Remember when Saijhan told the gang he re-wrote the prophecy? That anyone can write a prophecy? So what if W&H found the Shanshue, played with a few words, and have been using it to play with Angel's head? Plus - note before Angel gets a chance to consult the power's that be's mouthpieces: the oracles - on the whole Shanshue Prophecy - Vocah kills them and drives Cordy crazy with visions, effectively disconnecting both of Angel's avenues. So we've never really gotten a confirmation from the PTB that the Shanshue Prophecy Wes translated is the real one or valid. We just have Wes' translation and W&H's word on that.

EVE and her bedmate (Lindsey's look-a-like) clearly
wanted Spike to kill Angel or vice-versa. But that's not what happened and that is the "main" point of the episode - the core of the episode is why Spike and Angel did not kill each other. It's all about their relationship - not which vamp is better, not who is more heroic, or more evil or who deserves the Shanshue, that's the mislead, the joke - the game W&H is playing. W&H wants Angel and Spike at each other's throats. They want them to fight, not to band together. The best way of doing that is bringing up the Shanshue Prophecy.

Spike & Angel

In the flashbacks - surprisingly enough, we don't get a rivalry so much as a male bonding. I get the feeling these two guys were friends maybe even brothers or had a mentor relationship, maybe father/son? Angelus reacts with glee when Dru returns with William. Darla had just left him again to be with the Master (the Master always comes first with Darla - Angelus states - which is a very important thing to remember and goes to the heart of explaining a lot about Angelus), and they'd fought over it. Angelus takes one look at William and reactes with a sort of glee, another guy, another vamp. Someone he can mold into his own image, teach, bond with. I think Spike may be right when he states something else was going on there as well. Angelus sees a reflection of himself or who he once was. To test it he holds out his hand in the sunlight standing face to face with William. William takes up the challenge and mirrors him. Angelus laughs - you and I are going to have a ball.
And they do. Until the carriage ride home, when Angelus offers him another drink of the bride, he'd killed, William turns him down - talking about Dru and how she's his Destiney (note before that William was all about bonding with Angelus, stroking Angelus - now he's talking about Dru, whom Angelus dismisses as crazy) - William calls her "his" beloved, and he wants to get back to her. This makes Angelus quiet. He frowns and withdraws into the shadows. I think this is when he plots his rendezvous with Dru. When William returns he's horrified at the betrayal. And Angelus tells him - "she's not yours William, nothing is, you can take all you want, but you will "never" own anything. There is no deserving, no owning, nothing. Just this." He also makes fun of the name Willy - not stating William. But Willy. (Will.) Telling William - he needs to get a better name, William doesn't exactly strike fear in the hearts of anyone. (Interesting considering Liam is Angelus' real name - the Irish verison of William. Willy =Will. Liam = sans Will. )

Spike in the present - accuses Angel of not wanting to look at him now, of hating him now, because it reminds Angel that he created the monster Spike became. Dru may have sired him. But Angelus created him. Angel retorts all he did was open the door and show him how disgustingly horrid he truly was. Spike retorts, you don't know who I am, you never did. You think you created someone in your own image you didn't. Spike stakes Angel through the shoulder, but can't bring himself to kill him. He makes a conscious choice not to. And uses Buffy as the excuse. (Mislead number III - it's not about Buffy this time.) He does it when both are in vamp face. He withdrawls. Both turn back to human face. Angel removes the stake and warns Spike not to drink. (Angel could still stop Spike physically if he wanted to. Spike after all had stopped Angel when he grabbed for it.) What he says is not what one would expect - it's in fact very similar to the advice Angelus once gave William - do you really want the burden of it? Until it takes everything away, and all you are is dust? Is it worth it just to take something away from me? Spike drinks but not just to take something away from Angel but to take on the burden as well. (He states as much - "A little bit of both actually.") Yet the cup is only filled with mountain dew. Why? Well the test wasn't who gets to drink from the cup, but whether they would literally kill one another for it. They don't. Also the shanshu prophecy is "not" important in of itself, it never was. The cup is "not" important. They are symbols and also distractions. The cup of perpetual torment is a symbol of the pain the soul holds. Spike and Angel drank from the cup of perpetual torment the moment they became ensouled. Because that's what having a conscience and being human can be like. One vampire chose it. One had it forced upon him. But it doesn't change the torment. When Angel cautions Spike - it is an echo of the advice Angel may have given Spike, had he asked, way back in Villians through Grave about getting a soul. As well as an echo of what he might have told Spike when Spike fell for Buffy, or decided to wear the amulet. It is the advice an older/more experienced brother gives a younger less experienced brother, a father to a son. A teacher to a student.

The love buried between these two characters echoed in that opera house. Their psychological connection far deeper and more complex than either may be willing to admit. And it also echoed another confrontation - one between Angel and Connor. Ironically - it may be through each other that Angel and Spike get redeemed.

Remember when Angelus teaches William that nothing is his, you deserve nothing, Darla had just left him again...he is basically telling William - look I thought Darla was my destiney and the road to wonder/riches/etc, I've learned she's not. That's not the way of it. There's no forever. I'm going to save you the same pain of that discovery if I can. Here again, Angel is telling Spike - drinking from that cup does not lead to wonder, it leads to ruine, I don't want that for you unless you know what it entails, choose it wisely. Angel does not tell Spike not to drink from the cup just because he wants it, because as he tells Gunn later, he's not so sure that's still the case...no he tells Spike, because he knows what wanting it, what pursuing it, what believing in it and other prophecies has cost him over the years.

Angel ends the episode wondering what happens if he's not the one? And my retort - is Angel, why does it matter? Does that change what you're doing, your purpose? Maybe it's not about "being the one"? This is the lesson Buffy realized in Chosen when she stopped being "the one, sole slayer" and became one of many. She shared the power. Angel needs to learn the same thing. Buffy knew you redeemed via redeeming.
She knew it instinctively. Angel...isn't there yet.

The metaphors all lead me to believe that the whole who deserves to Shanshue theme may be mislead. Just as the whole = who is the better character, more morally upstanding character is a silly battle. It's never been about that.

1. the use of Lindsey or Lindsey's look-a-like (a character whose always been connected with the Shanshue prophecy)with anti-magic symbols tattooed on his body and on the walls of his room. Eve - exposition queen and the teller of the Shanshu dilema, joining him in bed.

2. The Cup = cup of friendship, cup of perpetual torment...yet it reminds me of the grail and the grail was a cup that Jesus shared with his friends at the last supper. Remember in the Jesus story - Jesus redeems others by redeeming himself on the cross. (Angel to Spike - drinking from the Cup is taking up a cross! And Spike remember picks up the cross even though it burns him, the cross Angel pushes away...) But it's not a prize or trophy.
Any more than being crucified was for Christ or Spike's cruxifixion by light in Chosen was - where he redeems the ubervamps with light.

3. The Opera house - Wagner's Parsifal - an opera about the search for the grail, by a fool who when he discoveres the cup brings it to his wounded King, a King wounded in the shoulder and side much like Angel is in this episode and they both sup from it.

4. The drag race in fast cars. The flashbacks. Showing a brotherly male bonding and rivalry. (Reminiscent in some respects to the female bonding of Darla and Dru in Reunion and Redefinition.)

5. Opening Pandora's Box - the flash that turns the world inside out. What's Pandora's Box signify - here it is used to describe both the chrome and steel building that AI is in, and the box Harmony opens that re-corporealizes Spike. In myth - Pandora's Box contained all sorts of deviltry but also truth - another metaphor for taking from the tree of good and evil.

6.Tree of good and evil or the tree of life: Sirk may be referring to the Tree of life when he says the tree shall be split and each shall drink from it. Tree of life different from the tree of knowledge - washes one clean or is a baptism - giving one a second chance. They are reborn.

7. mirror dance of a battle - where neither vamp really goes for the kill. Very much a mirror dance. Angel in some ways is fighting his reflection - how they fight is mirror of one another. Angel pushes the cross towards Spike, Spike picks it up and hits Angel with it, taunting him for not being able to lift it. Compare this scene to the mirror scene between Lorne and his alter-ego in Life of The PArty.
Spike says aloud many of the things Angel doubts about himself. Spike literally tells Angel that Angel can't stand Spike - because Spike represents in Angel's head what Angel hates most about his time as Angelus. Spike tells him that he needed someone as bad or worse than himself to live with how bad he'd become. Spike and Angel make a very good point though when they both state Spike isn't Angel or a reflection of Angel - even though Angel can't help but see it that way. Just as he saw Connor.

In the scene with Lindsey and Eve, Eve says that even though Spike didn't stake Angel, they did fight, since both came back bloody. So does Lindsey and EVE expect Spike or Angel to kill each other? If so, they will be sorely disappointed. They weren't willing to kill each other when one or the other was evil, I sincerely doubt they'll do it now. There's far too much love between them, mixed in with the rivalry and hate, for that to happen. They might beat each other up, knock each other out, but they will not kill each other. Also in a way, W&H or Lindsey/Eve did Spike and Angel a favor - they gave them a chance to address their issues, to fight it out. Far better than letting things continue to fester. I think through working with and coming to terms with each other - both vamps may find their way towards redeeming themselves and the world they live in.

Great episode. Right now...somewhere between a 9 or a 10 out of 10.

Replies:

[> Reposting ATS S5 and Wagner's Parsifal (Ats 5.8 Spoilers) -- s'kat, 12:37:00 11/20/03 Thu

Whole thread can be found here: http://www.voy.com/14567/7/

For those who couldn't read it in October and can now.

"Date Posted: 13:02:14 10/21/03 Tue
Author: cjl
Subject: From the Angel's Soul board: Angel S5 and Wagner's Parsifal (WARNING! Spoilers up to 5.8)

An interesting theory proposed by always thought-provoking Ramses2:

**********

Last season Jeff Bell said in an interview that ME had intended a retelling of Mordred/Arthur in the Connor/Angel storyline. I'm wondering if in all the shanshu references and what happens in episode 8, that we're getting a nod to Parsifal this season.

And not just any Parsifal--the opera set Angel and Spike fight on in "Destiny," with all the religious imagery, sounds like a delicious set up for retelling Wagner's Parsifal.

By using religious imagery Wagner went beyond religion itself (Wagner had no use for organized religion) to examine the issues people seek out religion for. Eternal justice, compassion and redemption are the major themes of Wagner's Parsifal.

The story is rather simple. A group dedicated to the Holy Grail finds itself in spiritual turmoil. The leader has succumbed to temptation and is spiritually wounded. The group has gone into the dark pathless forest where they try to regroup and find their only hope. They need a new hero.

Enter Parsifal. He is described by Wagner as a cosmic fool. He has grown up in the darkness, raised by a mother who loved him but taught him nothing of the ways of knights. He's rash, immature and prone to saying things that he shouldn't. When we first meet him he's killed a swan, feels compassion for it, but cannot express those feelings. When he meets the Leader and sees his pain, he senses it but again doesn't respond correctly.

"Emerging from this sheltered childhood, not yet an adult, he does not know the distinction between good and evil. He does not even know his own name, who he is or what he is; although he vaguely remembers that he has had many names, all now forgotten. At this stage Parsifal's life lacks purpose; if he has had any goal or mission, then it has been forgotten." (Note that in the flashbacks and present, Spike is refered to as William, Willy, Spike and is even told by Angelus that he needs a new name...and to get over any notion of destiny...nothing is his.)

Amfortas, the Leader has been wounded by the spear that wounded Christ. The Spear itself represents compassion. Only the spear can heal the wound it gave. He has received this wound from a temptress working for his enemy. "His compassion is not a negative emotion but insight into the suffering of the world, and the only consolation for it is recognition of the lack of any consolation, in other words, resignation." Think Angel taking the W&H deal from Lilah (Eve). Think the AI team setting up shop in a pathless dark forest (W&H itself). The leader has lost his heart, his search for redemption...for the grail itself (shanshu) is threatened. Angel facing that the shanshu might not be his.

Enter the fool, Spike. The shanshu is mentioned, but Spike is dismissed. He could not possibly be the one (just as Parsifal is dismissed). He is nothing like Angel.(Just a note, Wagner relied heavily on symbolism of the spear. It's been noted that when the spear is used as a weapon it only wounds the individual (first Amfortas and then Klingsor) who wields it--that is, the aggressor. Therefore it is possible to see the spear as a metaphor for what Schopenhauer called eternal justice. This aspect of Schopenhauer's philosophy can be found presented in another of Wagner's dramas; it forms part of the Wahn monologue in Die Meistersinger:

Driven to flight he deludes himself that he is the hunter; does not hear his own cry of pain; when he digs into his own flesh he is deluded that he gives himself pleasure!

According to Schopenhauer our individual existence is only apparent (in the world as representation), not real; there is no separation of existence in the eternal world (as will). When we injure others, we only harm ourselves; when we bite into the flesh of another being, we dig into our own flesh."

So maybe the fight of the Liam/William, Angel/Spike with the rebar...with harsh depictions of the woman they both love is actually ME's way of showing that same concept. Angelus made Spike, fashioned him in his own image. So there is perhaps more than sibling, or father/son here at play...maybe self/self. Spike's 'I'm nothing like you' could be Angel's own words to Angelus...even as Spike appears to bring Angel/Angelus sides closer to one entity.

Now in act 2, Parsifal is tempted by Kundry as well. But he rejects the temptation...he does however finally understand the longing and suffering of Amfortas. He finally gets that the world is full of guilt and a continuing circle of misery which can be broken only by compassion. And by rejecting the will with its blind urging and compulsion. (Perhaps a W&H deal is proffered to Spike?)

In act 3, we see Amfortas's healing, and the Grail given over to Parsifal. Amfortas as the representative of a world of entanglement and compromises (Angel's deal with W&H) cannot continue to be the Grail King even though he is redeemed. The 'reward' is now shouldered by another. "The act also presents a third stage in the inner action: the compassion that is a dull sensation in the first act, and widens into recognition, cosmic perception [Welthellsicht] in the second, is at last directed outwards in the third as a deed of redemption." Parsifal becomes the Grail King, but Amfortas receives the redemption. (Spike may receive the shanshu but Angel will know he's been redeemed.)

I think from episode 5.1 to 8 we see hints that Angel is suffering from the deal he made, he fears what it has done to his heart. He's trying, but each episode brings him up front and personal with his issues. Conviction brought him the reminder of his deal and his son. Just Rewards brings him Spike and the reminder that he's just a dead body and soul who struggles never knowing if he'll achieve redemption or not. Unleashed had him reflect on what makes a monster, and his advice to Nina was a stark reminder to us that Angel gave up those bonds for their own sake. But what of his sake? Hellbound, while about Spike touches on a lot of Angel's fears and issues as well. Epi 5, deals with splits in personalities...what happens when you deny your various sides...this was addressed in Unleashed as well. Episode 6 is the Cautionary Tale of Number 5...the mail messenger from W&H, the one who delivers Spike is discovered to be an old champion who has lost his heart. As Angel fights the aztec warrior demon, it appears uninterested in his heart. 5.7 is largely unknown but entitled Lineage which interestingly brings us to 8 which has all sorts of nods to destiny and lineage.

If the shanshu is given to Spike, it won't mean one vampire is better than another...the story isn't about who's better...it's about recognizing the sameness...it's about compassion and forgivness...something that Angel has yearned for much longer than merely becoming human."
*************************************************

"Date Posted: 15:11:21 10/21/03 Tue
Author: morgain
Subject: Adding some thoughts.... spoilers
In reply to: cjl 's message, "From the Angel's Soul board: Angel S5 and Wagner's Parsifal (WARNING! Spoilers up to 5.8)" on 13:02:14 10/21/03 Tue

I have only seen Parsifal once and know only a little about Schopenhauer..... but....

1- about compassion-- One of the most powerful themes this season so far has been the increasing violence towards individuals that Angel has been perpetrating [Hauser, Hainsley, Royce and next week Pavayne], and the [seemingly] decrease in his compassion for some [most notably Spike]. Spike is also mirroring a lack of compassion: little empathy for Nina, and future sides suggest he is quite self-involved. What occurs to me is that both Spike and Angel are representing two ends of a pole on a journey: One who has lost it and one who has yet to acquire it.

Now, if I understand Schopenhauer, it is through compassion / empathy for the suffering of others that the fool [Spike who is still on The Fool's Journey-- see the most recent Tarot readings] acquires wisdom and becomes a sage. It is through the perfection of this wisdom that the sage [Angel] is able to bring about salvation / redemption.

Sounds as if some mutual teaching is going to happen....

2. Wagner is said to be inspired by WOLFRAM von Eschenbach (died around 1230) generally regarded as the greatest of the medieval German narrative poets. Wolfram left some brilliant poems but is chiefly known for the narrative "Parzival. Wagner, however, was quite dismissive of this influence. Wolfram and his patron appear as characters in Wagner's TannhS�user.

3. about Kundry-- This character is supposed to represent the human predicament isimilar to Buddhism's samsara: the cycle of birth, suffering, death and rebirth. She is first presented as wild and restless, unable to help any one -- not even herself. By the end, however, she is calm, peaceful, quiet. This is because she has stopped stuggling to assert her will.

The Schopenhauerian message seems to be: stop striving and accept that suffering is an inevitable part of life and that desires can never be fully satisfied.

By the end of 8, Spike has part of what he wants, but not all [shanshu], and possibly what he wants the most eludes him. He is not cocky and gloating at the end... something has changed. Angel also begins to doubt his assumed right to specialness. The work must become worthy for its own sake... not the reward as both vamps have been operating under or the assertion of their own wills.

All things in the world are impermanent; nothing is secure [quite a lesson for the permanently frozen state of a vampire]. But this does not mean that we should not always seek the path of right action, for the very reason that life is precarious.

Again, we have the image of Spike as at the "birth" phase [the beginning of the soul journey] and Angel at the death phase [losing heart and soul] and needing rebirth.

4. One of the cornerstones of Schopenhauer philosophy is that the will is the transcendent thing-in-itself: that is self-interest is curtailed through force of will [self-denial] for the sake of others. Injure no one; on the contrary, help others as much as possible. This is how redemption is possible.

The only purpose in life must be that of escaping the will and its painful strivings. Schopenhauer's concept contains the foundations of what in Freud became the concepts of the unconscious and the id, and the foundation of civilization: sublimation.

Ah nuts, I was hoping for some RST.....

5. Is the Cup of Torment that Sirk [why do I always want to type Sark?] alludes to, really Life itself and living it......

Schopenhauer was one of the first philosphers to speak of the suffering of the world, which visibly and glaringly surrounds us, and of the nature of confusion, passion, and evil.

It is possible that Sirk is saying that one must engage with life before shanshu is possible.... At first "shanshu" meant "death" to Wesley [To Shanshu in LA]... and

Wesley: "What connects us to life is the simple truth that we are part of it."

Now in the belly of the Beast, everyone seems to get further and further disconnected from life while becoming addicted to work at W&H....

Then [To Shanshu in LA] it means he is going to live... rebirth from an unlife back into humanity...

Wes: life and death the same thing, part of a cycle

Now we have Spike and Angel, possibly at different points of the same birth-life-death-rebirth cycle...."

All credit for the above goes to Ramses2 and morgrain.

sk

[> Gimme that good old Mountain Dew (spoilers for "Destiny," classic TZone) -- cjl, 13:10:51 11/20/03 Thu

My favorite part of the entire ep was when Spike was ready to take his swig of Mountain Dew, and Angel stopped him--not by beating him up, which obviously wasn't working as well as it used to--but by warning Spike that this glorious destiny might not be as glorious as he thinks.

In one shot, we had Angel remembering some of the hard-earned lessons of the past five seasons, Angel giving Spike an almost-paternal word of warning, and Spike re-considering his own motivations--a rare thing for our bleached-blonde vamp. (Of course, Spike drank from the cup anyway; I would have been disappointed if he didn't.)

The scene, in a strange way, also reminded me of the great Twilight Zone episode, "A Game of Pool," in which pool hustler/social misfit Jack Klugman squared off against the ghost of a legendary champion (Jonathan Winters). All through the episode, Winters' Fats Brown taunted Klugman's Jesse Cardiff about all the time Jesse wasted in the pool hall, sinking bank shots rather than living a life and experiencing the world around him. Jesse blew him off, contending that "fat boy" was just scared about losing the title of the Greatest, and that the championship was worth any sacrifice.

Just as Jesse lined up the winning shot, Fats interjected that he might win more than he bargained for. Jesse blew him off again, sank the shot, and won the title of "champion." Problem is, once he died, Jesse's spirit was then condemned to compete against the wannabes who think they're hot stuff, while Fats could kick back and relax for the rest of eternity.

What are we willing to sacrifice to become a champion? Is Angel's capacity for self-sacrifice the greatest expression of his humanity, or the ideal detaching him from humanity? Or both? Should Angel have simply taken the chance to live as a human with Buffy while he had the chance (IWRY), rather than extend his (and everyone else's) misery?

The season is officially rolling.

Other bits of "Destiny" goodness:

-- The battle scenes. Spike comes over to Angel, and yesss!--he gets the AtS 20-foot vertical leap! Also loved when Spike grabbed the cross from "Beneath You" and bludgeoned Angel with it.

-- Lindsey! With "tats," yet! Back and badder than ever! (Or is he a good guy, now? Too early to tell, and if I think about it too much, my head will probably explode.)

-- The looks between Spike and Harm before they took off for their "nooner." I know there aren't many Spike/Harm fans out there in ATP land, but one of my last remaining 'ships was reconfirmed.

-- The hug Spike gave Gunn, and the offer to go out for a round of drinks after work. I think Spike genuinely likes Chuckie, and vice versa. That's great--I hope ME builds on their friendship.

-- As somebody who has to change the toner for his fellow employees, I understand the anger, if not the violence.

-- Rutherford Sirk was a smug, patronizing bastard. But he was funny. (I miss Wesley too, Angel, but Alexis and Alyson need their honeymoon time.)

-- Dead Kennedys on network TV! California Uber Alles, baby!

-- Dru. Not enough of her, but always great to see Juliet.

The not-so-good:

-- Eve. I'm trying, but Sarah Thompson just makes me irritable. The character is superbly written (despite all the exposition), and should be fascinating--but the actress just isn't cutting it. At the end, I got more of a thrill from Christian Kane's single line than from her entire speech.

-- DB's irish accent. It hasn't improved either.

-- The lack of Lorne. ME loves Andy Hallett so much, they're willing to pay him a regular's salary for doing almost nothing.

-- Fred called Gunn "Charles"! She remembers! No, wait, she called him "Gunn" again. Make up your mind, will you, Winifred?

My fears about the deus ex machina nature of Spike's recorporealization and the Senior Partners' re-alignment of the universe were completely unfounded, and instead, these points were turned into enough plot material to keep conspiracy buffs buzzing for months. The flashback sections didn't have the emotional power I thought they would, but they were a huge addition to Jossverse mythology anyway. (I get the feeling the eppy ran long, and they had to cut a few scenes.)

Could have been the "Best. Episode. Ever."--but still a great effort. 9 out of 10.

[> [> Re: Gimme that good old Mountain Dew (spoilers for "Destiny," classic TZone) -- Masq, 13:28:12 11/20/03 Thu

Eve. I'm trying, but Sarah Thompson just makes me irritable. The character is superbly written (despite all the exposition), and should be fascinating--but the actress just isn't cutting it. At the end, I got more of a thrill from Christian Kane's single line than from her entire speech.

I don't like Eve, either, but she gained coolness points (and depth) just by hopping into (literal and metaphorical) bed with the L-man.

[> [> [> Guess once again, I'll have to be the minority leader...I like Eve and Sarah Thompson, darnit!!! :o) -- Rob, 13:34:20 11/20/03 Thu

[> [> [> [> Me too!!! Me too!!!! -- Lunasea (standing in corner holding Rob's pom-poms for him), 13:58:03 11/20/03 Thu

That scene wouldn't have worked with Lilah at all and I like Eve. I think Sarah does a great job for what is she is supposed to do, just that some don't think she should be doing the job she is supposed to be.

Back seat directors.

Rah, rah, rah,
cis-boom-bah.
We love Sarah

[> [> [> [> [> "Ditto!" I'm Also a Sarah Thompson Fan (NT) -- Claudia, 15:01:29 11/20/03 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> It's her voice!!! -- Jaelvis, 14:46:18 11/21/03 Fri

I've finally figured out what I don't like about Eve/ST. Her voice!!! She sounds exactly like the geeky potential Amanda from the last season of Buffy. Same tone, same delivery, same annoyance.

As a character however, she is growing on me and now that she is in cahoots with Lindsey, she is 100% more interesting.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Me too!!! Me too!!!! -- Masq, 15:05:43 11/20/03 Thu

That scene wouldn't have worked with Lilah at all

If they've been planning a major Lindsey arc this season, with Lindsey in cahoots with someone inside W&H, then that's one reason to believe they did the "Eve" thing on purpose, rather than "having to settle for less than Lilah because SR wasn't available" or some such thing.

Because you're right, Lilah would never get in bed with Lindsey, even if she wanted to manipulate him. He'd never buy it in a million years.

Kinda makes you wonder what's going on in Eve's vapid little brain. Is she working with Lindsey or against him?

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Me too!!! Me too!!!! -- RJA, 15:26:07 11/20/03 Thu

But is Lindsay in cahoots with someone in W & H, or is Eve with Wolfram and Hart because of Lindsay? When she said she was not the bad guy, I genuinely believe she thinks that. It may even be true - who knows why Lindsey is back?

I dont think that Eve is a replacement for Lilah in any way, shape or form. I dont think she was intended to be. She plays a role that Lilah simply couldnt play, because we know exactly what Lilah would be. Evil, yet very cool. Eve is an unknown, and I think thats what is needed. Especially given the Lindsay connection.

And with any luck, Lilah might return very soon.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Me too!!! Me too!!!! -- jane, 18:47:05 11/20/03 Thu

I put myself in the Sarah Thompson fan club too. I think she does the bland ambiguity (evil/not evil?) well. Lilah has too much presence to pull that off; I don't think we would be confused as to her motivation, since she was always about power and how to keep it. I am much more uncertain about Eve's motives.
I was really blown away by this episode! 10/10, IMHO.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Ditto -- Katrina, 06:49:52 11/21/03 Fri

I've been searching for just the right word to encapsulate Eve. And there it is: "vapid."

Thanks!

[> [> [> [> Sarah Thompson Fan over Here -- DorianQ, 01:14:49 11/22/03 Sat

I, too, love that evil lawyer who's had Lindsey (lucky girl!)/ scarily perky cheerleader from hell (or possibly Santa Cruz; I don't remember anymore)!

[> [> [> Read this post by Wiseblood on eve, gunn, and moutain dew!(Ats 5.8 spoilers)) -- s'kat, 09:06:34 11/21/03 Fri

Wanted to share with you a fascinating post on the topic from ASSB. It says some interesting things about Lindsey and Eve.

"Date Posted: 02:42:11 11/21/03 Fri
Author: Wiseblood
Subject: Wonderful thread, so many great perspectives on this episode --

just finished watching it for the fourth time and am still being struck with the depth the writers continue to invest in seemingly simple plotlines this season. I can't really contribute much to what's already been said because, frankly, I'm a little overwhelmed, I do have some random thoughts and observations:

* Eve and Lindsey together makes me think the writers have heard the complaints from some fans that Eve is a poor substitute for Lilah, and are deliberately toying with that perception. First, by having her engage in loveless sex with Angel under confusing/abnormal conditions (as Lilah did in "Carpe Noctem"), then have her literally 'get in bed' with Angel's old enemy at the firm, as Angel himself has done metaphorically through his deal with W&H. Interestingly, Eve is one of the people closest to Angel at this point, and by virtue of her privileged access to him she functions as a symbolic proxy for Angel in the sigil-painted bedroom apparently hidden from the Senior Partner's awareness. Lindsey's place in bed is also significant, as Darla once insinuated that Lindsey's interest in her was only displaced fixation on Angel himself -- "it's not me you want to screw -- it's him." Lindsey welcoming Angel's confidant into his arms is an obvious signal of some kind. Whether this plan is designed to tip Angel back into a malleable darkness as part of some malign personal agenda, or shake Angel from his spiritual lethargy since taking on the CEO job at W&H, I have no idea.

However, my initial (first viewing) sense of Lindsey was that his intentions toward Angel weren't necessarily motivated by a desire to destroy him; he seemed satisfied enough by the fact that Angel had gotten his ass handed to him in the fight. Yet the implication of Eve's progress report -- and her stategic alignment with Lindsey in the first place -- was that Lindsey has acquired a great deal of power and authority in his absence. This would seem to be at odds with any need to conceal himself from Angel ... unless Lindsey himself has become a player in the actual events regarding the apocalypse and is seeking influence over Angel in order to position himself against the Senior Partners in anticipation of the eventual unfolding of prophecy. As Holland said to him in Blind Date, "I handpicked you ... because you had potential - potential for seeing things as they are. It's not about good or evil - it's about who wields the most power. And we wield a lot of it here, and you know what? I think the world is better for it." As he stood up to W&H and earned Holland's respect in that same episode, maybe what we saw was the revelation of Lindsey's having chosen a side in the firm's emerging schism -- his own. Instead of playing W&H's game, as he warned Angel not to do in "Dead End", he's decided to make the Senior Partners, and Angel by extension, play his.

I'm loving the idea being floated that the sigils/tattoos are designed for protective purposes; after the way Lindsey left the firm ("and anyway, I'm bored with this crap"), he can't have simply walked in without anyone knowing. Being hidden from Angel's awareness makes sense because he could be representing what's currently unknown to Team Angel at large -- that the secret festering in Angel's consciousness is evolving an infective outward manifestation which is the real disequilibrium threatening to upset the fabric of the universe.

* Gunn's comment to Eve in Gunn's office: "Don't go fingerin' the robots." Again the thread of dangerous technology rears its head, and Eve's look at him as he leaves the room was speculative. Robots of a small size on Gunn's shelves are clearly toys, and Gunn even makes a toy comment to Angel, later in the conference room, when he says his head feels like it wants to split and spill candy and toys 'all over the place'. Toy robots are a benign form of the same technology that put the firm's infinite law knowledge into Gunn's brain. I felt this was a signal, along with his remark about "any more days like this and there won't be any more days", that he's soon to be reaching a snapping point. In fact, I think Gunn has, in effect, assumed Spike's former "sleeper agent" status and is a bomb (not unlike the cyber-ninja hybrids) who's waiting for a signal from the Senior Partners to explode. That Angel is the intended target seems most obvious, but if the Senior Partners are aware of Eve's duplicity she may actually be the focus of Gunn's destructive capability (which could explain why Gunn snapped and choked Eve -- under the influence of the infective homicidal impulse, subconscious leakage from his implanted directive came to the surface).

* Spike's 'mountain dew' description of the cup's contents could be dismissed as flippant or merely descriptive, but in keeping with the poetic vision being established as part of his character's function this season, I think it means more. Having some Irish ancestry, I recalled once hearing of an old Irish folk-song called "The Rare Old Mountain Dew". After hunting it down, I found it ostensibly relates the pleasures of imbibing a drink 'that's made near Galway Bay' (Angel's hometown, incidentally). As one chorus goes:

Now learned men that use the pen
Have written the praises high
Of the sweet potion from Ireland's green
That's made from wheat and rye.

Go away with your pills, it will cure all ills,
Whether pagan, Christian or Jew,
So take off your coat and grease your throat
with a bucketful of mountain dew.

The song celebrates the "potion boys" who make and share the drink, with an implication of camaraderie which might be expected to be found between kith and kin. I think Spike drinking from the cup was symbolic of his recognition of a need to share some of the the burden for his and Angel's mutual healing. It also served as a declaration of autonomy from the elder vampire's dictates, demonstrated in William's past interactions with Angelus in flashback. In essence, Spike chose to accept the burden of human (read: spiritual) potentiality and eventual wholeness, with all its attendent pain. Angel, as the older sibling/mentor, sought to deny that experience from the younger vampire, and rightly Spike rejected that (I believe, genuinely offered) protection in order to declare his emotional and psychological independence.

Spike's use of the cross to batter Angel, though, is an important clue that he has accepted the cup's burden without fully understanding the future ramifications. Angel rejected the cross, including using it as the first available weapon even when his hand fell upon it during their battle. Perhaps because, in his current stage of development, he's moving beyond simply blaming God or any supreme being for his existential difficulties? Almost as if Angel was saying, 'I won't use God/religion to justify my desire for redemption'. Angel doesn't care anymore about being 'right', but he still wants to be forgiven. I saw this as foreshadowing Angel's eventual realization that he's the only one in a position to grant that forgiveness to himself.

Spike, on the other hand, proudly brandishes the cross and readily brings it to bear as a weapon against Angel; his smoldering grip shows he's still enamored of the poetry and romance of suffering (assuming Angel's Christ-pose of S1 and early S2) and its symbolic overtones of God-ordained justice and divinity, as does his oblique reference to draping himself over the cross in the church. Like a visual reference to Darla's "God doesn't want you -- but I still do", the cross itself is used to hurt Angel (text) while delivering the message (subtext) that redemption for past sins between the two men is possible.

"The Rare Old Mountain Dew" finishes with "we'll give them the slip and take a sip of the rare old mountain dew". The optimistic reading of this is that by sharing the responsibility for healing the wounds of their past, both vampires have a hope of escaping the machinations of those set to use them as pawns -- and to reach the last row of squares on the chessboard where they can become kings of their own fates. By balancing strengths and buttressing weaknesses each one calls forth in the other, the suffering Spike will endure by accepting the challenge of the cup will enable both Angel and Spike to unify and ultimately overcome a common foe."

All credit goes to the wonderful Wiseblood from ASSB board.

SK

[> [> [> [> Wonderful and thought-provoking post. Thanks, Wiseblood , S'kat. -- jane, 18:20:10 11/21/03 Fri

[> [> Re: Gimme that good old Mountain Dew (spoilers for "Destiny," classic TZone) -- s'kat, 14:11:46 11/20/03 Thu

What are we willing to sacrifice to become a champion? Is Angel's capacity for self-sacrifice the greatest expression of his humanity, or the ideal detaching him from humanity? Or both? Should Angel have simply taken the chance to live as a human with Buffy while he had the chance (IWRY), rather than extend his (and everyone else's) misery?

What indeed? For Angel being a champion for the longest time was a contest...now having lost so much, he's beginning to wonder.

So much of this has to do with being human. The Shanshu - isn't just about becoming human though - it's about having the slate wiped clean, all your past sins washed away from you. That's the golden prize Angel yearns for. If humanity was all he wanted? He could grab it easily enough - just go find one of those jeweled in the head demons. No, that's not it. Because being human, even for one day, was painful, b/c he was unable to do anything or make a difference in the way he'd become accustomed.

I find it highly ironic that both these vamps yearn to become human, when humanity was the thing they both eagerly escaped a 100 years ago, embracing dark power. It's a wonderful metaphor for adolescence and coming of age.

*********

"Other bits of "Destiny" goodness:"

-- The battle scenes. Spike comes over to Angel, and yesss!--he gets the AtS 20-foot vertical leap! Also loved when Spike grabbed the cross from "Beneath You" and bludgeoned Angel with it.

Agree. Yes - Spike can do the super-leap too! What I love about Ats is the fight scenes, so much more thrilling than on BTVS the last few seasons. And the cross scene was fantastic (even though I was spoiled on it.)

-- Lindsey! With "tats," yet! Back and badder than ever! (Or is he a good guy, now? Too early to tell, and if I think about it too much, my head will probably explode.)

I'm wondering too about this development. It better be Lindsey and not an evil twin or I will be annoyed. Weird development. However Lindsey's introduction did make EVE less bothersome. Agree with masq on that.

-- The hug Spike gave Gunn, and the offer to go out for a round of drinks after work. I think Spike genuinely likes Chuckie, and vice versa. That's great--I hope ME builds on their friendship.

This is something I want to see explored. Loads of potential there. Gunn is most interesting when he's bonding with guys - whether they be Wes or Spike. (Interesting about
Spike - since Spike is the opposite of Gunn - in that he went from wealthy educated scholar to street fighter. Also
opposite in coloring. And a vampire. Talking about how opposites attract.)

-- Dru. Not enough of her, but always great to see Juliet.

Agreed. Criminally under-used in the episode. Which makes me yearn for her to be brought back into the present even more.

-- Eve. I'm trying, but Sarah Thompson just makes me irritable. The character is superbly written (despite all the exposition), and should be fascinating--but the actress just isn't cutting it. At the end, I got more of a thrill from Christian Kane's single line than from her entire speech.

Agreed. ST isn't working for me either. I've tried to see her as the little girl from the white room, but it just makes me miss the actress who played that part.

-- Fred called Gunn "Charles"! She remembers! No, wait, she called him "Gunn" again. Make up your mind, will you, Winifred?

This bugged me too. For a moment I got exicted thinking they exchanged a moment, but it was dropped so quickly I think I was imagining things. I'm beginning to wonder if either of them remembers the relationship and if they do? They just don't care? Did ME decide it didn't work and just erase it completely?

Could have been the "Best. Episode. Ever."--but still a great effort. 9 out of 10.

Would agree - 9/10.

[> [> [> Re: Gimme that good old Mountain Dew (spoilers for "Destiny," classic TZone) -- angel's nibblet, 17:35:58 11/20/03 Thu

-- Fred called Gunn "Charles"! She remembers! No, wait, she called him "Gunn" again. Make up your mind, will you, Winifred?

Maybe this was intentional, showing a momentary lapse, like with Angel and the 'father will kill the son' prophecy? Wanna bet that these are going to get more frequent over the next few episodes...

Agreed. ST isn't working for me either. I've tried to see her as the little girl from the white room, but it just makes me miss the actress who played that part

The little girl from the white room? Now that you mention it the resemblence is uncanny. But that would just make no sense now would it....?

[> [> [> [> Let Grasses Grow and waters flow -- Cleanthes, 19:12:59 11/20/03 Thu

So, what kind of mountain dew was it? Would Liam of Galway immediately think of the cloying American soft drink? Seriously? Or was it:

"Of the rare poteen from Ireland green
Distilled from wheat and rye
Away with your pills, it'll cure all ills
Be ye pagan, Christian, or Jew
So take off your coat and grease your throat
With a bucket of the mountain dew. "?

[> [> [> [> [> Actually...(Spoilers for Ats 5.8) -- s'kat, 20:07:59 11/20/03 Thu

The moutain dew was drunk by Spike and Spike mentioned it tasted like moutain dew, not Liam. So...the question is why did Spike recognize it? Spike being a poet might have heard the poem?

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Actually...(Spoilers for Ats 5.8) -- Cleanthes, 20:16:58 11/20/03 Thu

Spike loved his cars and motorcycles and booze. I'm sure he knew all about Irish drinking songs.

The American audience would probably immediately think of the piddling soft drink, but neither William or Liam would have ever had reason to drink it.

As well, the song directly mentions Galway:
Let grasses grow and waters flow
In a free and easy way
But give me enough of the rare old stuff
That's made near Galway Bay

So, the only reason to believe the stuff in the cup was the soft drink would be Spike's dismissive tone in calling it "mountain dew". He would probably have reacted differently to strong water of life.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> William wouldn't have, but Spike would -- Finn Mac Cool, 21:05:46 11/20/03 Thu

He's shown a fondness for human food and drink before, and the unfortunate prominence of un-colas in today's market practically guarantees he's partaken of it.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> I didn't know that was an Irish folk song! -- cjl, 07:05:18 11/21/03 Fri

You learn something new every day. I thought it was a classic American folk song about moonshine, made fresh in the Appalachian mountains, and guaranteed to render you blind and crippled after your third sip. (I think Johnny Cash and Bob Dylan covered this one....)

There's a big hollow tree
Down the road here from me
Where you lay down a dollar or two.
Then you go around the bend
When you come back again
There's a jugful of mountain dew.

CHORUS:
Oh, they call it that old mountain dew
And them that refuse it are few.
Oh, I'll shut up my mug
If you'll fill up my jug
With that good old mountain dew.

Well, there's my old Aunt June
Bought some brand new perfume
It had such a sweet smellin' phew.
But to her surprise, when she had it analyzed
It was nothing but good old mountain dew.

And there's Uncle Mort
He's sawed off and short.
He's just five feet and one inch or two.
But he thinks he's a giant
When he gets him a pint
Of that good old mountain dew.

Now, there's Uncle Bill
Got a still on the hill
Where he runs off a gallon or two.
And the buzzards in the sky
Get so dizzy they can't fly
Just from smelling that mountain dew.

After sipping the bland soda-pop Mountain Dew from the cup, I think Spike wanted the real thing at the end of the episode.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Portion of Wiseblood's great post on this, see above for rest (spoilers Ats 5.8) -- s'kat, 09:14:17 11/21/03 Fri

"* Spike's 'mountain dew' description of the cup's contents could be dismissed as flippant or merely descriptive, but in keeping with the poetic vision being established as part of his character's function this season, I think it means more. Having some Irish ancestry, I recalled once hearing of an old Irish folk-song called "The Rare Old Mountain Dew". After hunting it down, I found it ostensibly relates the pleasures of imbibing a drink 'that's made near Galway Bay' (Angel's hometown, incidentally). As one chorus goes:

Now learned men that use the pen
Have written the praises high
Of the sweet potion from Ireland's green
That's made from wheat and rye.

Go away with your pills, it will cure all ills,
Whether pagan, Christian or Jew,
So take off your coat and grease your throat
with a bucketful of mountain dew.

The song celebrates the "potion boys" who make and share the drink, with an implication of camaraderie which might be expected to be found between kith and kin. I think Spike drinking from the cup was symbolic of his recognition of a need to share some of the the burden for his and Angel's mutual healing. It also served as a declaration of autonomy from the elder vampire's dictates, demonstrated in William's past interactions with Angelus in flashback. In essence, Spike chose to accept the burden of human (read: spiritual) potentiality and eventual wholeness, with all its attendent pain. Angel, as the older sibling/mentor, sought to deny that experience from the younger vampire, and rightly Spike rejected that (I believe, genuinely offered) protection in order to declare his emotional and psychological independence.

Spike's use of the cross to batter Angel, though, is an important clue that he has accepted the cup's burden without fully understanding the future ramifications. Angel rejected the cross, including using it as the first available weapon even when his hand fell upon it during their battle. Perhaps because, in his current stage of development, he's moving beyond simply blaming God or any supreme being for his existential difficulties? Almost as if Angel was saying, 'I won't use God/religion to justify my desire for redemption'. Angel doesn't care anymore about being 'right', but he still wants to be forgiven. I saw this as foreshadowing Angel's eventual realization that he's the only one in a position to grant that forgiveness to himself.

Spike, on the other hand, proudly brandishes the cross and readily brings it to bear as a weapon against Angel; his smoldering grip shows he's still enamored of the poetry and romance of suffering (assuming Angel's Christ-pose of S1 and early S2) and its symbolic overtones of God-ordained justice and divinity, as does his oblique reference to draping himself over the cross in the church. Like a visual reference to Darla's "God doesn't want you -- but I still do", the cross itself is used to hurt Angel (text) while delivering the message (subtext) that redemption for past sins between the two men is possible.

"The Rare Old Mountain Dew" finishes with "we'll give them the slip and take a sip of the rare old mountain dew". The optimistic reading of this is that by sharing the responsibility for healing the wounds of their past, both vampires have a hope of escaping the machinations of those set to use them as pawns -- and to reach the last row of squares on the chessboard where they can become kings of their own fates. By balancing strengths and buttressing weaknesses each one calls forth in the other, the suffering Spike will endure by accepting the challenge of the cup will enable both Angel and Spike to unify and ultimately overcome a common foe."

All credit goes to Wiseblood from ASSB board for above.
For the entire thread go to: http://www.voy.com/14810/2/133044762.html
(There are a few future spoilers in the thread so be careful.)

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Angel and the cross (spoilers Ats 5.8) -- Ponygirl, 09:46:55 11/21/03 Fri

I think Angel's jumping away from the touch of the cross becomes even more significant with his later line to Spike to try and get him to not drink from the cup. Angel describes the role of the hero as a burden, a cross. It may be a burden that Angel does not wish to bear anymore. Maybe it's not the shanshu that Angel doesn't really want but the whole champion business. Wasn't there a part in the bible where Jesus prays that the cup be taken from him?

Of course Spike grabs the cross and drinks from the cup to prove that he can. Not a great motivation either.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Angel and the cross (spoilers Ats 5.8) -- Caroline, 15:09:23 11/21/03 Fri

I thought the whole reason why Angel flinched from the cross and Spike held onto it despite the fact that it burned him was symbolic of the fact that Spike had already sacrificed his life whereas Angel had not. Spike drank from the cup and Angel didn't because the cup symbolizes knowledge - knowledge of sacrifice that Spike has been through and Angel has not. In the Passion, there does come a moment when Christ, in despair, asks for his Father to take the cup away from him and that cup symbolizes his earthly sufferings. For Spike, drinking from the cup is symbolic of having accepted this plight in the past and a willingness to do it in the future. At the risk of repeating my post on the Angel after Spike board, when Angel was warning Spike about the meaning of drinking from the cup, he was really talking to himself, not Spike. Spike has already known what it is like to burn to ashes, live in limbo and risk being dragged to hell. Angel has not and his speech is about his unconscious desire to not have this burden himself - witness his disillusionment recently and his denial of prophecy in general and shanshu in particular.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Angel and the cross (spoilers Ats 5.8) -- Ponygirl, 06:28:21 11/22/03 Sat

Exactly! During Angel's description of what the burden would bring I expected Spike to say, been there, done that, got the newly-recorporealized t-shirt. Another proof that Angel is not really seeing Spike for who he is. Of course Spike's not really seeing Angel either.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> The thingies in the mirror, they're like closer than they appear (spoilers Ats 5.8) -- fresne, 08:32:11 11/22/03 Sat

I think that they may both being seeing in distorted mirrors.

That moment when Angel tells Spike to talk when he's saved the world a few more times and I wondered, isn't that more Buffy or Giles or Willow or Xander's line? How many times does Angel perceive himself to have saved the world from Apocalypse and all he got was this lousy Law firm? Since Angel, the show and the character, has never been about the apocali. Apocalypses? What is the plural of apocalypse? Revelation? Eating the fruit. Drinking from the cup. Hanging on yet another cross, which you had to carry up the damn hill yourself. But isn't that always the way?

Because Angel isn't seeing the irony of preaching to the choir about burning. Holding hands in the sunlight. Being consumed by light. That's what made their argument so funny. Well aside from hearing the Board come out of each of their beating the holy Bat-owe mouths. They aren't seeing each other. They knew each other over a hundred years ago of dust and blood and shaping.

The King of cups. The knight of Cups. The High Priestess dizzy spinning sour lemons. Otter's and the Echer damns.

In FfL, Angelus almost stakes laughing William, laughing Spike, but doesn't. Here and the now, they are reversed and the mine is now the Opera. The mobs and the crowds all gone. Darla and Dru have left the building. The boys remain.

After all these women, here finally was a boy to play son to Angelus' father.

William arrives not only just as Darla leaves, but as Darla returns to her Daddy. Angelus once more in the role of child. Not good, or in this case bad, enough. And it's not the first time. Last time. And here's this shiny new toy that's all with that evil innocence.

And I wonder, did Angelus urge William to kill his erstwhile "friends" with railroad spikes in their poetry listening heads before or after that moment with Dru. It plays so well both ways.

But I rather think after. Earnest bad poetry and confidences without confidence before. Bloody urging, taunting, cooling the metal later.

It's not just that William calls Dru his destiny, it's that he switched from absolutely toadying to Angelus, "you did this and then you did this and you're just the coolest," to saying someone else is more important to me than you.

Father Liam. Son William. And the cup of mountain dew. Moonshine. Soft drink. Hard Liquor. High voltage caffeine.

They are different drinks. Different affects. Not to be world tipping confusing.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> More random bits (spoilers Ats 5.8) -- Ponygirl, 08:27:54 11/23/03 Sun

There are lots of interesting bits and pieces that struck me on my second viewing - brace yourself, I'm going point form:

Spike draining Angel's cup in the first scene and naming the ingredients (the coffee commercial moment of "is this otter") just as he will in the end.

The code for shutting down W&H, "Pandora's box is closed."

The faux static cellphone conversation between Angel and Spike leading into Gunn's very real inability to understand what was being said on the other end of the walkie talkie.

Spike in car said that Angel thought himself the signified monkey. The Signifying Monkey is a book on African folklore by Henry Louis Gates Jr. The story of the Signifying Monkey itself is about tricksters and the dangers of taking things at face value.

"In the narrative poems, the Signifying Monkey invariably repeats to his friend, the Lion, some insult purportedly generated by their mutual friend, the Elephant. The Lion, indignant and outraged, demands an apology of the Elephant, who refuses and then trounces the Lion. The Lion, realizing that his mistake was to take the monkey literally, returns to trounce the monkey."

Who's the Monkey here? In terms of stirring up trouble it would seem to be Lindsey.

In the opera house the first thing Angel passes is a four poster bed, the same bed put to such use in the 1880 hotel room.

Both he and Spike pass a statue of Anubis. In Egyptian myth Anubis, god of the dead, was responsible for weighing and judging the hearts of the dead.

Then on the stage we had statues of a jaguar, a laughing Buddha, what looked to be a lion, and possibly a carousel horse in the hazy background. Significantly next to the cup there was a statue of a woman. There was also a second female statue, that looked more like a Kore (maiden/Peresphone figure) off to the side.

[> [> [> [> [> "Cloying" American soft drink?!? I live on that stuff! -- Rob (offended Mountain Dew addict) ;o), 22:16:39 11/20/03 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: "Cloying" American soft drink?!? I live on that stuff! -- Cleanthes, 15:33:14 11/21/03 Fri

It's better for you than poit�n, no doubt.

I had poit�n about ten years ago with my daughter's godfather, an Irish man with, well, connections. It does grease the throat.

I haven't had the soft drink for 25 years, so I don't actually remember what it tastes like. They may even have changed the formula.

[> [> [> Re: Gimme that good old Mountain Dew (spoilers for "Destiny," classic TZone) -- Cheryl, 19:29:09 11/20/03 Thu

-- Dru. Not enough of her, but always great to see Juliet.

Agreed. Criminally under-used in the episode. Which makes me yearn for her to be brought back into the present even more.

What was Gunn's phone call (or walkie talkie, or whatever he was using) about? It sounded to me like he was ordering someone to bring Drusilla to L.A. Did anyone else get that impression?

[> [> [> [> Gunn's walkie talkie call -- Jaelvis, 14:58:57 11/21/03 Fri

I thought he was having security track down Eve but I've only watched it once so I could be mistaken.

[> [> Re: Gimme that good old Mountain Dew (spoilers for "Destiny," classic TZone) -- Jay, 20:43:34 11/20/03 Thu

I'm surprised that in an episode of Angel where there was a notable absence of Wesley, Cordelia, Connor, Darla, Faith, Lilah, Buffy, Doyle, Holtz, Numfar, Justine, Merle, Skip, Anne, David Nasbitt, Sahjhan, Willow, Holland Manners, Jasmine, Lava Boy and a very brief appearance by The Host; I was actually entertained by and enjoyed the episode. The final two minutes was awesome.

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