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requiem for a .... (spoilers 7.9) -- Rochefort, 18:57:38 11/26/02 Tue

Jonathon. I'm still stunned he's dead. Dumped cold and lifeless into the ground. :( After the whole suicide thing and the Buffy parasol thing and the Air Jonathon thing and the being the best of the trio thing, I always figured he'd have a big learning thing, come around and be a great chap. And then he's all dead. Grantide, in Detroit, we still haven't gotten to see him get stabbed, so maybe it still isn't real for me. Are other people surprised he's dead?

The watcher council on the other hand... KABOOM! heh heh heh. Call the forces of knowledge together! KABOOM! heh heh.
[> Re: about the KABOOM! (spoilers 7.9) -- Jay, 19:33:27 11/26/02 Tue

Before the WC scene they had the London street scene that panned up to a building. The building exploding after the WC scene was a different building. I'm not saying the WC wasn't blown up, but why the two different buildings? In the next few weeks I'm gonna have to go through my tapes to see if I can identify the building that exploded. Unless someone else has a ready answer.
[> [> Re: about the KABOOM! (spoilers 7.9) -- Clen, 19:47:51 11/26/02 Tue

you could be right, that would be hella cheesy though. I say why not have the cojones to just blow em up good and be done with it. two tears in a bucket, fuck it.
[> Re: requiem for a .... (spoilers 7.9) -- Indri, 19:46:23 11/26/02 Tue

Are other people surprised he's dead?

A little. Saddened more. I so hoped he'd someday find the Superstar inside and turn into a self-assured and mature individual. I mean, I suppose he did, but he got to be that person so briefly...

So far we've lost Halfrek, Jonathon, maybe Giles and now Travers and presumably other CoW members. Was that Lydia and Nigel from Checkpoint?

We've also had return appearances of Warren, Glory, Adam, Mayor Wilkins, Dru, the Master, Cassie, Joyce, Andrew and probably others I've already forgotten.

Which other characters, major and minor, might return to Sunnydale? There's [well-known casting spoiler omitted], but who else and why?

I'd favour Oz and Harmony except that the rising body count might suggest their return would be short-lived.

And where, of course, is Clem?
[> [> Re: requiem for a .... (spoilers 7.9) -- Rook, 19:52:35 11/26/02 Tue

Well, if we get to pick, here's a vote for Ethan Rayne!
[> [> [> Mmm, yes. But for or against the Scoobies? -- Indri, 19:59:21 11/26/02 Tue

Perhaps this is one Big Bad that is a little too bad even for Ethan. Might we see him fighting next to Giles (who I refuse to believe is dead until we see his lifeless eyes staring up at the ceiling)?

But what did happen to him in the Initiative? Those weren't friendly folks. Maybe he's mad and out for revenge...

Arg, you can see why I normally stick to writing fanfic rather than philosophical speculation.
[> [> [> [> I vote for the Buffy-bot. -- Rochefort, 21:23:21 11/26/02 Tue

I like her smile.

Also, I thought the chick that did her dissertation on Spike would be around more. I thought she was funny, and that if she talked with Spike again it would be ammusing. But kablooie! heh heh.

Yes... I thought Jonathon would get to be a mature super star too. :( Cut down in his prime.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: I vote for the Buffy-bot. -- dagger7, 08:30:52 11/27/02 Wed

Of course, thesis-chick was headed out of the room just as Travers began speaking...perhaps she survived, or even is a double agent in service to the BB. Maybe we'll see her again...
[> [> [> [> [> [> Thesis-chick's name is Lydia in the shooting script -- Indri, another thesis-chick, 08:50:14 11/27/02 Wed

[> 66.666666666666666666666% -- neaux, 04:14:58 11/27/02 Wed

I'm probably adding wrong.. but at some point Johnathon said something about 33.333333% of the troika was gone with Warren's death and well after Johnathon's death... doesnt that add up to 66.666666%

That's always a nice evil number.
Ununified 7.9 thoughts (spoilers, future spoilers, and specs) -- Kenny, 20:54:50 11/26/02 Tue

I finally stopped reading wildfeed summaries and most spoilers. Tonight's ep proved it the right thing to do.

Everyone on Usenet's currently saying that the Watchers didn't get blown up, that different buildings were shown in the establishing and "money" shots. Fooey. Same building, different sides. This is one of those instances of ME being perfectly forward in their intentions and viewers creating wild scenarios where none should exist. Heh.

Oh yeah, uhm, THEY BLEW UP COW! And I actually liked Quentin Travers. Sure, he was pompous, but he was fighting the good fight. Buffy really impressed me on her call with him, addressing him as Mr. Travers and everything. I like that she's secure enough in herself that she can deal with the Council. And for my money, I think Travers was more interested in protecting Buffy than anything else in the way he dealt with her. Perhaps even at Giles' request, as they'd obviously been dealing with him and considered him extremely important.

That Giles is MIA is a good sign for him still being alive. They have to know that a slayer-in-training and a Watcher were killed in (assuming) the Watcher's apartment. Perhaps the Coven near his home gave him protection charms. But I'm sure the G-man's alive-and-kickin'.

I've seen speculation that Principal Wood was a Watcher, but I've been quite unsure. This ep has thrown me in that camp, however. And I don't quite know why. Maybe it's that he dresses like a Watcher. More than anything, though, this ep proved that they've been paying close attention to everything transpiring. Actually, it's been thrown in their faces. And I have a hard time believing, knowing what they do, that they'd leave the Hellmouth with no representation. Wood's the best candidate for that. Plus, it would make him the ultimate anti-Snyder, which satisifies my need for balance. I hope this is the case, and I hope he and Buffy come clean with each other soon. If nothing else, seeing the Wood-Buffy-Dawn troika at SH would be incredibly cool.

Segue to Dawn. She's fighting incredibly well. Which leads credence to the idea that Joss is at least thinking about her for a spin-off. The funny thing is that I've been ambivalent to that idea in the past; now I'm downright against it. ME have done such a good job of making me love Dawn that I don't want to see her current role change. I really resonate with her this year, since my sister taught at my high school my junior and senior years (and it really was "my" high school, as she was never a student there). And more on the Dawn-vamp theme, as the idea of Spike getting at her was actually brought up this ep. Where are they going with this?

Willow still has the nerd in her. Her confrontation with Andrew was great! "Halloween" and "Dopplegangland" really laid the foundation for who she's become. She has the ability to transform herself as the situation sees fit; she's changed so much, and she's cognizant of those changes and uses them to her benefit. Such self-knowledge comes with a price, though. When such disparate sides of oneself- -geek, intellectual, lover--become equally comfortable, one has a tendancy to feel that there is no core being, only facades vying for control. And she's fought so hard against this particular side. I hope this becomes the answer to "Dopplegangland"; whereas there she realized her ability to transcend her own self-image, here she has the chance to accept that as an important part of herself.

Anya's quite explicit about staking Spike this ep. Is it because it's the practical thing to do? Is it because that's what Xander would think should be done (WWXD)? Is it because she's projecting feelings about herself onto Spike? I've no clue, but I'm incredibly happy that she, not Xander, brought this issue up. And their good cop/bad cop was beautiful. This seems like the first couple ME has decided to put back together after taking apart (since Buffy and Angel were doomed to failure, considering the spin-off and everything). Those two are finally developing the one thing they always lacked--respect for one another.

I've been trying to put my finger on the exact reason I like Drew Goddard episodes, and I think I've figured it out. They're episodes that actors want to act in. Of course James Marsters always puts his best foot forward (the man needs a new agent--he plays with so much passion and ability, I can't believe he's barely known outside of Buffydom). Most of the others are just as capable, but seem less driven. But Goddard eps aren't just about what the characters would do, they're about who the characters are, and they give the actors so much material to work with. They've put alot of trust in a new writer, and it's well- deserved; DG seems a major force in making this the best season of Buffy. I think this ends my ramblings for the dramatic portion of 7.9. Not quite as much metaphysical meat to chew on this time out (although I can feel myself gnawing), but I do love good plot-driven eps that reset our expectations.
[> Principal Wood's affilitation?(and trying to keep the thread alive) -- lulabel, 17:39:45 11/27/02 Wed

Some nice observations, here. I agree with your ideas on D Goddard scripts - they really give the actors something to chew on.

I'd be very surprised if Wood turns out to be a Watcher. Natty dresser, maybe, but HELLO not ENGLISH or stuffy or a general waste of space that most Watchers seem to be (however well intentioned) In that scene where he goes to find Jonathan and buries him, I was getting that exact same zombie vibe that Spike gives off in his "sleeper" mode. My money is that Wood was in sleeper mode last night. Let's not forget that his office is right over the Hellmouth, so it's not a stretch to guess that he's been exposed to the First just as much as Spike was in the basement below.
[> [> Re: Principal Wood's affilitation?(and trying to keep the thread alive) -- Kenny, 18:00:03 11/27/02 Wed

"Becoming" showed that not all Watchers are British. You've got me on the stuffy part though :) I know what you mean about the "Sleeper" vibe, but my gut says it may have been misdirection (and, being an ENFP, I like going with my gut). Maybe it's that he's charismatic most of the time, so going into stuffy Watcher made just makes him seem like a Sleeper.
[> [> [> non-British watchers? -- lulabel, 19:19:01 11/27/02 Wed

Well, I'm drawing a blank on the non-British watcher from Becoming, but I'll take your word for it. If there was one there, s/he was the only one out of dozens that we've seen who were/are Brits.

Another thing that I think has been pretty consistent with the Watchers was my flippant "waste of space" remark. Most of the watchers are classic ivory-tower types, at least until they get a good dose of Buffy. The remainder are ruthless goons that I wouldn't trust to watch a houseplant. Principal Wood is just way too suave and all around with-it to be a Watcher. He's also not nearly arrogant enough - which is also another consistent Watcher trait.

In any case, I'm actually betting he is with the Forces of Good, in one way or another. He comes across as a truly decent, caring guy. If he was going to be a real baddy I think he would have been depicted in a more ambiguous light up til now.
[> [> [> [> Re: non-British watchers? -- Kenny, 19:33:40 11/27/02 Wed

Let me try to jog your memory. There was a flashback to Buffy in L.A. She was sucking on a lollypop (the things that stick out to us) when a shortish, rotundish man with a mustache walked up to her and started telling her about her destiny. He had a distinctly American accent. If you've ever seen the show _Grounded For Life_, it's the same actor who plays the granddad. Well, I'm assuming he's the granddad, as I've only seen promos for the show.

While we saw just a small bit of him, he didn't seem quite as "ivory tower" as some of the rest. Even Giles wasn't really that to start with...just British and a bit flummoxed. We found out that there are cells around the world, so perhaps there are regional differences. And Faith seemed close to her first Watcher, which I don't see happening if the whole "Ivory Tower" thing was going on. The HQ-bound members probably do have that attitude, but the field agents may not. That's actually a common trait in many organizations.

Ah, speculation. Fun and frustrating at the same time. One thing's for sure, I don't think either of us are thrilled about waiting until next year to find out the answer. At least we have a place like this to mull it around until then.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: non-British watchers? -- Juliet, 20:19:13 11/27/02 Wed

Ya know...

(crazy, crazy spec below)

If Dawn becomes a slayer, then we get another convienient watcher-is-at-her-school moment.

But, you're right. Wood seems way too laid-back for a watcher.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: non-British watchers? -- monsieurxander, 22:23:02 11/27/02 Wed

I got the vibe that Kendra's watcher was Jamaican, and not British, from the sound of his name.
[> [> Re: Principal Wood's affilitation?(and trying to keep the thread alive) -- leslie, 09:30:11 11/28/02 Thu

My feelings about Wood are colored by the fact that we had another pig running loose in the school. Last time that happened, Principal Flutie was devoured by evil forces that were "beneath him" (i.e., students)--an event Buffy has already alluded to when talking with Wood. This seems to me to suggest that Wood, like Flutie, is a victim.
I'm leaving in a few minutes (see my Thanksgiving thread) below, but just had to confirm that... -- Rob, 21:11:05 11/26/02 Tue

YES I loved the episode.

YES "Buffy" is still the best show on TV.

YES This is the best season so far, "Him" or no "Him."

I honestly can't think of a show that in its seventh season could shock the hell out of its audience the way "Buffy" is able to shock me. The great thing about this season is that every rule is being broken. People are dying who we never thought in a million years would die. The Watchers' Council was always seen as this formidable, secret, powerful force and now it's...gone. Giles (it seems) is gone. Jonathan is gone. This Big Bad means business. This is the First. This is the epicy goodness I missed so much last season. This is so frickin' cool!

Rob
[> P.S. BtVS 7.9 (Never Leave Me) spoilers in above post. -- Rob, 21:12:29 11/26/02 Tue

[> And Rob has his pom-poms back! -- HonorH, 23:18:54 11/26/02 Tue

Shake that booty, Cheerleader-Man!
[> Gone? No. Way. -- KdS, 01:24:33 11/27/02 Wed

Sorry, but an organisation on the scale we saw in Who Are You?, Sanctuary and Checkpoint doesn't just disappear if you blow up the top echelon. People'll be running around for a while, but sooner or later someone with self-confidence and competence will seize the reigns of power. Giles, if he's still alive? BBW-as-Giles if he's dead (evil spec, I know).

Maybe now the dead wood's been pruned the Council will be more effective.
[> [> someone somewhere once said.. -- neaux, 04:21:30 11/27/02 Wed

"From the bottom to the top to the top to the bottom..... mmmmmmmm I got em" -either it was a famous rapper or that flunkee from C & C Music Factory.


Anyway I am thinking that these monk dudes probably think they have done a thorough job getting all the CoW. I just hope Giles isnt dead or is faking dead or something. Therefore he comes back BadAssMoFo style.

AND... if he does get his own show called "THE WATCHER" then it would make sense that he is THE watcher, being the only one. or is Wesley still a watcher?
[> [> [> A Council guy said -- Finn Mac Cool, 08:29:18 11/27/02 Wed

That members of the Watchers' Council were being attacked and killed by the First Evil's minions. Quentin even said the First Evil had declared "all-out war" on the Council. The bombing in England is merely the most extreme example of the destruction of the Watchers.
[> [> [> [> Re: A Council guy said -- Sci, 23:59:23 11/27/02 Wed

Council Guy said that they'd lost contact with operations centers in, IIRC, Munich, Melborne, and several other cities across the globe, and that casualty reports were coming in.

Now, given as how the Council is the biggest institution fighting for Good in the War, and given as how at least part of the Watchers' Council's job is to find and train new slayers, I'd imagine that the Council has operations centers in every major city on Earth, to be frank. It's been decimated, to be sure, but it ain't gone. It's nowhere near as powerful as it was, but, frankly, I think it's still around -- hopefully with one or two aces up its sleeves to help the Slayer with. And I fully expect it to be rebuilt.

However corrupt it may become, an institution like the WC is necessary when you only have one Slayer called at any time. Frankly, I get the distinct impression that the WC does a lot more than train Slayers -- it's probably the proverbial army that's, ideally, supporting the Slayer. (In reality, they sometimes see themselves as being in charge of the Slayer, but that's a totally different issue).

The Watchers' Council isn't gone. The old cat's got teeth yet.
[> [> [> [> [> If the Sunnydale Situation is any indication. . . - - Finn Mac Cool, 08:45:11 11/28/02 Thu

It's often only one Watcher assigned to each Slayer and Slayer-in-training, and quite probably only one or a scarce few assigned to other projects. If this is true, even if the Council had an operative in every major city, they would still be left with very few Watchers not killed. And, then there's the issue of continued attacks by the Harbingers, and the fact that the remnants will likely have a very difficult time getting in contact (their used to going through Council management in England).

I wouldn't call the Watchers' Council the sole organization for fighting evil. We've been shown that there are other forces which oppose demons and vampires: the Initiative, the Black Ops in South America, Champions of the PTBs like Angel, and vigilante gangs like the one Gunn once belonged to. There are probably other forces like them all across the world.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: If the Sunnydale Situation is any indication. . . -- Sci, 19:39:54 11/28/02 Thu

It's often only one Watcher assigned to each Slayer and Slayer-in-training, and quite probably only one or a scarce few assigned to other projects. If this is true, even if the Council had an operative in every major city, they would still be left with very few Watchers not killed. And, then there's the issue of continued attacks by the Harbingers, and the fact that the remnants will likely have a very difficult time getting in contact (their used to going through Council management in England).

I imagine that there's usually only one Watcher assigned to Slayers and SITs because it's generally easier for someone to only have on trainer, one mentor. I don't buy the idea that there's only a few Watchers doing a few other projects. Frankly, I'd be more likely to imagine that there are large numbers of Watcher operatives in most major cities and in areas where mystical energy is very prevalent, all of them very proficient in combat. I mean, given the level of supernatural activity all over the world, it's the only possible explanation for how the Demons are kept in check in areas where there are no Slayers. I mean, all the apocalypses can't possibly originate in California, can they?

I wouldn't call the Watchers' Council the sole organization for fighting evil.

I didn't. I called it the LARGEST, which is the general impression the shows have given over the years.

We've been shown that there are other forces which oppose demons and vampires: the Initiative, the Black Ops in South America, Champions of the PTBs like Angel, and vigilante gangs like the one Gunn once belonged to. There are probably other forces like them all across the world.

Right. But the WC exists because it's the biggest, globe- spanning force for Good, and given that it's the one that has the most access to info on the supernatural, I have no doubt that its operatives throughout the world are highly trained. But they get so caught up in the good they do in the rest of the world that they get arrogant and don't help out the Slayers when they should if the Slayers don't kowtow to them.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: If the Sunnydale Situation is any indication. . . -- Finn Mac Cool, 21:24:54 11/28/02 Thu

Actually, training Slayers and potential-Slayers is the only thing we've ever been shown the Watchers being involved in. I give these three quotes to help my stance (they are slightly paraphrased, though):

From "Welcome to the Hellmouth":

Giles: The Slayer slays. The Watcher. . .

Buffy: Watches?


From "Checkpoint":

Quentin: The Council fights evil. The Slayer is the instrument through which we fight.


From "Bad Girls":

Wesley: Training methods have changed quite a bit since your day.

Giles: Oh, really?

Wesley: Oh, yes. A much greater emphasis on field work. I have faced two vampires myself, under controlled circumstances, of course.


The Watchers don't seem to be too much into actually taking up a weapon and fighting the bad guys. While many of them are trained in fighting, it is primarily so that they can instruct the Slayers. Aside from training and guiding the Slayers, the Watchers' primary occupation seems to be research. I'm just saying I find the image of Watchers stationed all around the world making outposts against demons a tad ludicrous considering what we've been shown of their institution so far. Buffy even brings up the point in "Checkpoint" that all the Watchers can do without a Slayer is collect data and sit on their butts with it. Given that Quentin seemed to be taken down a couple pegs by this shows that what she said hit home. My guess is that in major cities or areas of high paranormal activity there are somewhere from one to five Watchers stationed, but acting for the most part on their own without much interferance by the lead members of the Council (while the Council has made itself a nuisance whenever it's shown up on BtVS, they rarely get involved and there seems to be precious little communication between various Watchers (otherwise things like Gwendolyn Post going evil or two new Slayers being called wouldn't have gone off Giles's radar).

And the Watchers' Council, aside from Slayer training, doesn't seem necessary to keeping the forces of darkness at bay. I doubt that Angel is the only Champion currently active in the world, and vamp/demon fighting gangs like the one Gunn once belonged probably spring up wherever there are vamps/demons to fight. And the Black Ops also have a global influence, and I doubt the U.S. is the only nation that takes military measures against the supernatural.

With the information we've been given, I don't see the Watchers' Council as having a vast, global, demon fighting army, more like a world-wide research organization with a lot of its interest in Slayer training. And, given the various forces of good around the world, the Watchers' Council doesn't need to exist either in order for the Buffyverse to survive.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: If the Sunnydale Situation is any indication. . . -- Sci, 09:39:48 11/29/02 Fri

Well, we obviously have totally different interperetations of the nature of the Council, then. My interperetation is based on the dialogue in "Never Leave Me" -- which made it sound like the Council is a huge, global organization --, as well as the existence of those WC assassination teams, its tendency to want to control Slayers (which only makes sense to me if they're used to having a lot of control over their operatives), the power it seemed to have over the US government (i.e., its ability to have Giles deported in less than 24 hours), and basic logic. I mean, I just don't see how the WC could possibly even find Slayers if it's not a very large organization with agents all across the globe, and I don't see how rogue Demon slaying groups like Gunn's could possibly be effective enough to stop local Demons and apocalypses, especially given as it's been established that the WC is the organization that has more info on the supernatural than almost any other institution in the world.

But, eh. We've both presented our cases; disagreements still arise. Maybe the show will be more explicit in the future in its descriptions of the WC, eh?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Well, most of this hinges on. . . -- Finn Mac Cool, 09:58:38 11/29/02 Fri

How many potential Slayers there are in the world at a time. If there are only, oh say, thirty-fifty in the world at any given time, than a large number of Watchers wouldn't be neccessary since they seem to have some way of knowing who is and who isn't a potential Slayer.

As for Giles, the Council got him to Sunnydale pretty quickly after Buffy's mom decided they would move there. From what I've heard, the board of immigration doesn't work that fast, so it may be possible that Giles is technically an illegal immigrant. All the CW would have to do to deport him, then, is bring it to the INS's attention.

I also never denied that the Watchers' Council was a worldwide organization, our disagreement mainly comes from whether they have just a few operatives for select areas of the world (perhaps only somewhere around two hundred totalled), and whether they just do research or actually become demon fighters. I tend to believe my theory is correct based upon the fact that Watchers don't often seem to congregate in large numbers or communicate very well, and the fact that, without an active Slayer under their control, they seemed pretty much immobilized.

Still, to each his own theory.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> One factual point -- Sophist, 11:14:43 11/29/02 Fri

From what I've heard, the board of immigration doesn't work that fast, so it may be possible that Giles is technically an illegal immigrant

In Checkpoint, Giles says he has a green card. Assuming that's true, his status in the US is legal.

Since you are correct about the INS, that suggests that the COW has some pull to get Giles here so quickly.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: If the Sunnydale Situation is any indication. . . -- leslie, 11:30:41 11/29/02 Fri

"With the information we've been given, I don't see the Watchers' Council as having a vast, global, demon fighting army, more like a world-wide research organization with a lot of its interest in Slayer training."

Obviously, with my professional interests, I am biased, but the CoW has always struck me as essentially an academic institution with a bent for fieldwork--they are anthropologists/ folklorists/ mythologists of the supernatural. They do book research (poor little Lydia and her thesis on William the Bloody, research and researcher now apparently blown to bits--she had potential to be a good Watcher, she obviously understood some of the attractiveness of darkness--but despite the fact that the subject of her thesis was still around, she obviously hadn't done any direct interviewing until she came to Sunnydale) but they also go out in the field and observe the supernatural in action, and offer their expertise to the professionals--the Slayers--who must deal with it. That's the ideal, much as it is the ideal of academic anthropological etc. research. In reality, they have succumbed to the the bureacracy and intertia of a research institution that thinks it has accumulated all there is to know about a subject and therefore doesn't need the input of laypersons, the self- educated, or even its own fieldworkers.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: A Council guy said -- Tyreseus, 18:26:38 11/28/02 Thu

You know, it's hard for me to seperate the CoW in BtVS from the Talamasca in the Anne Rice books. Or the watcher group in the Highlander series. Or a dozen other "secret organizations" from sci-fi worlds where an ancient institution closely guards it's secrets, is steeped in ritual and custom, and seems a bit "gray" in the overall moral scale.

You know, if the CoW employed psychics, this shouldn't come as a shock. There's never been any evidence that they do (not like Wolfram and Hart in AtS), but I find it odd that they would use supernaturally strong agents like Slayers, but not people with other talents. In Checkpoint, they seem to be familiar with witches, but not openly opposed to the idea of working with them. Giles and Wesley seem to have been trained in rudimentary magic and spells. There are a lot of unanswered questions about the CoW, and I hope the bombing hasn't prevented us from ever learning more about them.

But I have to agree that the CoW has been portrayed as a vast network of agents and operatives. I think even the First Evil would have a hard time ridding the world of all it's members, trainees, and employees.

Has anyone else wondered if there's a deliberate parallel to recent terrorist activity in BtVS lately? I mean, a bombing of an institution that considered itself invulnerable. Anonymous indivuduals who infiltrate and confuse. The unexpected low-blows to the good guys. Just a thought I haven't been able to shake since the bombing in Never Leave Me.
The Carpenter's Craft and the Hallowed Ground of Sunnydale High -- cjl, 22:22:51 11/26/02 Tue

OK, it's official: there's something up with Xander.

Even a Xandermaniac like me can't pass it off as Buffy fan paranoia anymore. From a Xander standpoint, this episode was seriously weird. Anya proposes that the Scoobs run a stake through Spike and Xander, charter member and former president of the I-Hate-Spike Club refuses to even dignify her rant with an answer. ("I have a house to build.") With a bare smattering of clues, he pulls everything together regarding Spike's rampage, correctly figuring out the musical trigger mechanism. And the capper: he lays into Andrew with one of the eeriest "good cop" monologues in the history of crime drama. If you don't mind my saying-- WTF?

However, I do have a theory:

We have another sleeper on our hands. But NOT for the First Evil.

Xander is a sleeper for the good guys--and he's just as unaware of his sleeper status as Spike.

Here's the way I put it all together:

It hit me when Principal Wood takes Jonathan's body out for burial. Initially, I couldn't make sense of anything he was doing. If he's working for the bad guys, why move the body at all? If he's one of the good guys, why don't we see even a flicker of emotion on his face? Wood is obviously well aware of where he is and what the Seal of Danthazar is all about; he must realize that poor Jonathan was the sacrificial lamb in an unholy ceremony to raise the ubervamp. But he goes about his business in a grim, methodical manner, as if relocating Jonathan's body were somehow IMPORTANT. And then I looked carefully at the background while he was digging. You can clearly see one of the cranes from Xander's construction company. He's probably burying Jonathan where Xander is building the school gym.

But why there?

Only one thought occurred to me:

Sacred ground.

But that's impossible. This is SunnyHell High, right? Evil central. Remember Willow's locator spell from "Same Time, Same Place"? The demonic energy at the school is off the scale...

Think back to the end of Season 6. When Willow zaps Xander on Kingman's Bluff, he seems to be completely unaffected by the confluence of magical forces. But suppose he has been affected? No, he didn't become SuperXander or gain any magical powers; but he may have been recognized as a force for good by a higher power who needs an ace-in-the-hole for the coming high stakes battle on the Hellmouth. Who better than Xander as the PTB's sleeper agent? He's not a witch or a slayer or a vampire--just an ordinary carpenter going about his business.

Xander's had a tough year with everything that went on with Anya, and he feels as if his heart has been ripped out and replaced with darkness. So he throws himself into his work and helps rebuild the school. The FE is delighted. It thinks the idiotic mortal and his cronies are obliviously constructing a temple consecrated to evil and the ultimate destruction of the universe. After the ribbon cutting ceremony in Lessons, it probably never gives Xander a second thought. (Xander is noticeably absent from CwDP.)

But maybe it should. As has been repeated ad nauseum in this forum and many others, Xander has been instrumental in solving virtually all of the Scoobies' cases from the first moment of Season 7. It's almost as if he has crib sheets on his wrist for the season's plotline. But it's his attitude towards Spike that should give the FE the most pause. I think that, somewhere in the back of his mind, Xander KNOWS the role Spike is going to play for the good guys at the end- -and his past hatreds really don't matter that much anymore. If this is true, then Xander's oddball behavior--like leaving Anya alone with Spike in "Sleeper" makes perfect sense. (And need I remind everyone that the first thing we see in "Sleeper" is Xander...sleeping?)

So what is Xander's ultimate role in this drama? We've been looking at it all year. He's the heart of the Scoobies, and to quote a great Richard Thompson song, a heart needs a home. Xander is building a temple all right--but it's a temple that will eventually be used to banish the First Evil and close up the Hellmouth for good. The FE won't know what hit it.

JMO, of course. But it's the only theory that makes sense given what I've seen so far.

(I'll gladly listen to any alternate theories about this ep's Xander/Principal Wood weirdness that fit the facts...)
[> Spoilers for "Never Leave Me" and S7 speculation, of course. -- cjl, 22:49:39 11/26/02 Tue

[> Um . . . not cranes . . . oil pumps -- d'Herblay, 23:09:37 11/26/02 Tue

[> [> Re: Um . . . not cranes . . . oil pumps -- CW, 04:33:29 11/27/02 Wed

Well, someone has seen an oil well before. ;o)

I wonder if Sunnydale has evil oil beneath it? Does it have Hellmouth brand gas stations?
[> [> [> Oil pumps? Really? (Maybe I should look at that scene again.) -- cjl, 06:55:03 11/27/02 Wed

[> [> [> [> Maybe Xander's pumping comment had a double meaning! Or rather a triple meaning ;) -- ponygirl fearing X- files black oil, 09:05:14 11/28/02 Thu

[> Not staking, stabbing -- Rook, 00:31:33 11/27/02 Wed

I see a lot of people taking Anya's comment about stabbing Spike in the chest as her saying he should be staked, however I believe it was a sarcastic comment on her part about how, when she killed the college guys, Buffy ran her through ther chest with a sword. Xander's non-response to her is him avoiding discussing that event, rather than a defense of Spike.
[> [> You are right Rook. it was a sarcastic response about Buffy. -- neaux, 04:26:23 11/27/02 Wed

[> [> [> Re: You are right Rook. it was a sarcastic response about Buffy. -- Doriander, 17:42:24 11/27/02 Wed

I agree. Near the end of “Sleeper,” it was Anya who first questioned Buffy, and she looked quite peeved too. I like it.

And before the Anya/Xander confab in the bathroom, did anyone else get the impression that they were both taking out their resentment on Spike-wannabe Andrew? That it was all an act kinda surprised me (perhaps I’m just not well versed in cop dramas). I like this kind of layered writing.
[> [> Re: Not staking, stabbing -- Caroline, 07:06:06 11/27/02 Wed

I agree Rook. That was all about Anya and Xander and so not about Spike. I was also concerned for Xander talking about his heart being gone, the darkness that took its place and the emptiness of his life - seems like he's primed for possession in some way (?? I'm really bad at spec.)

Also, must disagree with cjl about Principal Wood. He looked perfectly normal (and hot!) walking down the corridor and then he looked like he was possessed to go down to get Jonathan from the seal and bury him in preparation for the ritual to raise the uber-vampire.
[> [> [> Possibly. But that just brings up more questions. (spoilers NLM) -- cjl, 07:27:15 11/27/02 Wed

Why Wood? The FE has plenty of minions to do clean-up work. If the FE wanted Jonathan moved after the failed bloodletting, one of the Harbingers or even Andrew could have dumped the body hours or even days before. His body was conspicuously left on the seal until Wood came to get it.

Again--why Wood?
[> [> [> [> Re: Possibly. But that just brings up more questions. (spoilers NLM) -- Juliet, 20:05:56 11/27/02 Wed

Maybe it needed Wood out of the way for some reason?
[> [> [> Re: Wood going to the basement -- aliera, 10:03:00 11/28/02 Thu

What I saw just for anothe POV was Wood stop and then he narrowed his eye's slightly as if he was hearing sensing something...I don't have any answer either his name has been a pointer since the season began (the film critic and or the Green Man) but whether it's good or bad it's hard to say. Xander's comments just reminded me of Conrad's Heart of darkness and their was messianic/demon reference in that and also a reminder for us of Restless...again whether he is good or the void inside was filled by something else I don't know. There was also a look on his face when they were working on Andrew that was disturbing not a look of pretending but more coming out...sorry, this isn't very helpful.
[> Re: The Carpenter's Craft and the Hallowed Ground of Sunnydale High -- mrfh, 06:17:27 11/27/02 Wed

I have to agree with cjl. I don't think it is a coincidence that Xander is a carpenter (even though it is also convenient for the Summers women that he is able to repair their ever-destroyed home). I'm not a biblical scholar, but the famous carpenter of the New Testament bucked convention and believed his fiance when she said that she was pure. Thus, he entered the battle on the side of good. Maybe Xander is doing the same.

mrfh
[> [> Choosing Xander -- Rook, 07:29:10 11/27/02 Wed

What I'm wondering is if the constant "carpenter" references are supposed to be priming us for the fact that Xander will have to be sacrificed at some point. It may be that at some point, Buffy is going to have to choose one of her friends to be sacrificed...and if the apparition in CWDP waswtelling the truth, we know it won't be Dawn. Spike's already been crucified twice this season, so it won't likely be him. If Giles isn't dead, then I doubt they'd kill him later. Willow doesn't seem a likely canidate either, after the events of last year.

Also, if we go back to Restless, in Xander's dream he's acting out parts of "Apocalypse Now" (Which is based on "Heart of Darkness", and Xander told Andrew that his heart has been replaced with Darkness). Just before we transition out of the Apoc Now stuff, Snyder as Kurtz tells him he's a "Whipping boy, raised by mongrels and set on a sacrificial stone".

Now, it doesn't mean Xander will die...it's entirely possible that [future casting spoiler] would sacrifice herself in his place. But all of the crucifixion/carpenter/Heart of Darkness stuff has got me thinking that Xander might be in some trouble.
[> Re: The Carpenter's Craft and the Hallowed Ground of Sunnydale High -- Tyreseus, 19:04:02 11/27/02 Wed

Ditto your thoughts that there is something weird going on with Xander, but totally lacking in enough clues to speculate effectively. I like the thoughts others have contributed to this thread.

Question on the carpenters craft, though. I'm not really familiar with California architecture, but is it standard practice to leave unpaved dirt in the basements of schools? Every basement I've ever been in has had concrete (at least) floors in every room. I think this is as much for sanitation sake as anything else (I would think that dirt attracts rodents, snakes, bugs, demons, and other things carrying germs).

If Xander examined the blueprints to the school so closely, why didn't he recognize the lack of foundation concrete directly over the hellmouth? If I were running a Sunnydale construction company, I would have covered that thing over with so much concrete another construction company would have been needed to uncover it.

Also, when we saw the ruins of old Sunnydale High in Doomed, where was the Seal of Danzathar? There was just this big hole in the ground, no evil looking, blood sucking large metal disk. Hmm. Suspending my disblief for needed plot elements, I guess.
[> [> The Seal may not be directly on top of the Hellmouth, though I prefer not to think about it at all. -- Finn Mac Cool, 20:28:28 11/27/02 Wed

[> Re: if we're gonna start quoting Richard Thompson... -- leslie, 10:44:34 11/28/02 Thu

(a songwriter with a rather Jossian worldview, or perhaps vice versa...)

This is a strange affair:
The time has come to travel but the road is filled with fear.
This is a strange affair:
My youth has all been wasted and I'm bent and gray with years.
And all my companions are taken away,
And who will provide for me against my dying day?
I took my own provision but it fooled me and wasted away.
This is a strange affair.

Oh where are my companions--
My mother, father, lover, friend and enemy--
Oh where are my companions?
They're prisoners of death now and taken far from me.
And where are the dreams I dreamed in the days of my youth?
They took me to illusion when they promised me the truth.
And what do sleepers need to make them listen, why do they need more proof?
This is a strange affair.
[> [> And for the other souled vamp... -- KdS, 10:50:24 11/28/02 Thu

"I feel so good I'm gonna break somebody's heart tonight"
[> [> [> Al Bowlley's in heaven, and I'm in limbo now -- leslie, 11:45:43 11/28/02 Thu

Many, many thoughts (7.9 spoilers galore) -- HonorH, 23:46:29 11/26/02 Tue

Gotta get to this before Honorificus does, if only this week. Let's see if I can organize a thought or two:

1) So, we have a positive identification on the BBW. It is, indeed, the First Evil. Well. That explains a lot. It also makes the whole sitch that much messier. How do you fight it when it doesn't even have a corporeal form? Pick off its agents one by one? That strikes me as slightly pointless. So what does one do?

2) I'm going to guess right here and now that the Ugly was, in fact, the very first vampire, locked in the Hellmouth for eons. Now it's free. I think we can assume this one won't be an easy kill.

3) Andrew: Do they come any more pathetic? He can now add "Failed First Evil hatchet-man" to his resume. And the Scoobies are stuck with him. Kudos to Willow for realizing, even though her guilt, that Andrew buying large amounts of pig's blood couldn't be good.

4) So long, Watchers. Just as they were about to get off their collective arses and do something productive, too. I wonder when Wesley will hear of this? Also, I'm taking Giles' failure to appear as a good sign. No news is good news and all that. Could be wrong, but don't step on my optimism.

5) Back at the ranch, Buffy now knows who she's dealing with, since she's beaten up the Bringers before. I'm sure she's thrilled to be dealing with them again. I'm also thinking she's going to be making another very fruitless call to England again soon.

6) Spike: He's figured out part of what having a soul means, but not all. Hence the pity-party. He's got the hard stuff down-pat--guilt, remorse, self-loathing--but he's yet to understand what else having a soul means. Buffy, bless her, spells it out to him: he can be a better man if he tries, and she believes he will. I'm hoping he clings to that while hanging around in the FE's S/M rig.

7) Scoobies: acquitted themselves well. Loved Anya's bad cop routine, even though she did get into it a tad much. Willow also gets props for dragging Andrew home. Xander-- okay, that's it. I want one for myself. He fixes windows, he plays Exposition Man with war movies, he's actually starting to get along with his ex, he tells self-revealing stories, and he bonks baddies who're trying to gut Dawn on the head with big, heavy hammers. Speaking of Key Girl--

8) Anyone else notice a similarity between Dawn's position and that of the Redshirt Girls in the first two eps? Lying on her back with a knife raised over her? And was it just my imagination, or was she the only one, save for Andrew, who the Bringers went after with a knife? So: were they going after Buffy's sister, a proto-Slayer, or the Key?

9) Robin Wood: bad guy, good guy, or another sleeper agent of the FE? The jury's still out. *Something* told him to go downstairs, and his burying Jonathan looked an awful lot like SleeperSpike burying Redshirt Blonde last week. At this point, we can't assume anything.

If things are this intense this early on, I don't think I'm gonna survive this season. But at least I'll die happy.
[> Re: Many, many thoughts (7.9 spoilers galore) -- Briar Rose, 01:01:38 11/27/02 Wed

You really summed up my feelings on this ep with your last line. The past three eps have been intense. NOW they make us wait until JANUARY for another fix???? I am so pissed!

Robin Wood! Man that made me fall off my chair... Mind control or just part of the job for someone acting as a henchman for some BB? Please don't tell me that all the principals at Sunnydale High are evil's henchmen..... AT least Snyder was doing it without really knowing he was.~s~
[> [> Re: Many, many thoughts (7.9 spoilers galore) -- Metron, 06:34:03 11/27/02 Wed

I'm to blame for them waiting until January to show another episode. You see, I'll be in Florida for two weeks over christmas vacation, away from things like TV, Computer, etc. They knew that and have graciously held off showing any more new episodes until I get back. :)

I've been thinking about Mr. Wood, and his role in all of this. I don't think he's a part of the mind control bit. The only person that's shown any signs of mind control was Spike. Even Andrew, weak minded as he is, had to be conned by the guise of Warren to do what he did.

My speculation on Mr. Wood is that he's related to the watchers somehow, or to some agency that keeps watch over that seal. I think he went down there to check on it, found Jonathan, and took care of the mess. Can't rightly have the police down there to investigate now can you?

Also, can someone tell me when Buffy had previously encountered those eyeless cultists? I don't remember them, but she did, and knew their connection to the "first".

~Met
[> [> [> Many, many thoughts (Still 7.9 spoilers galore) -- Rahael, 07:19:20 11/27/02 Wed

They first appeared in "Amends" which was also when we first met the First.

They were the people making the Christmas trees grow greyer. Funny that they were eyeless, when the torture that Angel was put through was "seeing" too many painful things.

And that irony is present again in S7
[> agree on all counts. -- lynx, 01:03:07 11/27/02 Wed

"Invictus" (Yes, Rah, today I'm the one with the poetry post) (Spoilers for 7.9 "Never Leave Me") -- d'Herblay, 03:38:13 11/27/02 Wed

When someone starts quoting William Ernest Henley's Invictus, it's a bad sign. When the father of the title character in John Sladek and Thomas M. Disch's Black Alice does it, his villainy is telegraphed. This past summer, when I put Henley's words into Spike's mouth, I was cheekily supporting one of my more cock-eyed theories, but I was also preparing myself and the reader for Spike to very demonstratively reassert his position. And, of course, tonight's episode was not the first time Invictus has been associated with a large explosion in a building housing a bureaucracy. Anyway, having Quentin Travers's last famous words on my mind, I thought it might be instructive, or at least a reasonable exercise to work the fat off of my fingers so as to make room for Thanksgiving dinner, to replicate the poem for y'all.

Out of the night that covers me,
    Black as the Pit from pole to pole,
I thank whatever gods may be
    For my unconquerable soul.

In the fell clutch of circumstance
    I have not winced nor cried aloud.
Under the bludgeonings of chance
    My head is bloody, but unbowed.

Beyond this place of wrath and tears
    Looms but the Horror of the shade,
And yet the menace of the years
    Finds, and shall find, me unafraid.

It matters not how strait the gate,
    How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate:
    I am the captain of my soul.

(Spike really should have said it. Not that he's taken the helm of his soul just yet . . . but, c'mon, he so is Henley!)
[> Re: "Invictus" (Spoilers for 7.9 "Never Leave Me") -- CW, 04:10:18 11/27/02 Wed

This was the first poem I was asked to recite from memory as a freshman in high school. Didn't do it very well. Later English teachers of mine pointed out its bad qualities (that the speaker obviously isn't the master of his fate, among other things). So I get a nervous chuckle whenever I hear a reference to it. As soon as I saw Travers, I expected evil munchkins to come out of the woodwork. When he quoted 'Invictus,' I had to laugh to myself, "This is not good."
[> lol (Spoilers for Never Leave Me) -- Rahael, 04:53:34 11/27/02 Wed

Did Travers really quote Invictus? That's so spooky!! This adds to the long running discussion of Henley and BtVS.

See, these are things that fall under the radar when you rely on wildfeeds. So what did you think of the ep?

Spike may not have said it, but ME often do the ironic counterpoint thing, don't they.
[> Re: "Invictus" (Is your implication Quentin is a villian?) (Spoilers for 7.9 "Never Leave Me") -- frisby, 05:36:12 11/27/02 Wed

Are you raising the possibility that Quentin is a villain or allied with the first evil? I'd not even considered that. And even if not, how were those with the Watchers Council so taken by surprise? And are the harbringers of the First Evil so numerous to have raised such a global attack? And what is the relation between the Watchers Council and the Knights of Byzantium?
[> Very cool! Congrats d'H on more Henley linkage! -- ponygirl, 06:21:11 11/27/02 Wed

[> The other thing Quentin said -- ponygirl, 09:35:24 11/27/02 Wed

I pulled a few more lines out of Proverbs. The second part of 24:6 is certainly ironic when applied to the CoW, but I also thought the lines about house-building appropriate for this episode, and the evil = mischief is food for thought.

24:1
Be not thou envious against evil men, neither desire to be with them.

24:2
For their heart studieth destruction, and their lips talk of mischief.

24:3
Through wisdom is an house builded; and by understanding it is established:

24:4
And by knowledge shall the chambers be filled with all precious and pleasant riches.

24:5
A wise man is strong; yea, a man of knowledge increaseth strength.

24:6
For by wise counsel thou shalt make thy war: and in multitude of counsellors there is safety.

24:7
Wisdom is too high for a fool: he openeth not his mouth in the gate.

24:8
He that deviseth to do evil shall be called a mischievous person.

24:9
The thought of foolishness is sin: and the scorner is an abomination to men.

24:10
If thou faint in the day of adversity, thy strength is small.

24:11
If thou forbear to deliver them that are drawn unto death, and those that are ready to be slain;

24:12
If thou sayest, Behold, we knew it not; doth not he that pondereth the heart consider it? and he that keepeth thy soul, doth not he know it? and shall not he render to every man according to his works?
[> [> Re: The other thing Quentin said (of course spoilers) -- Tyreseus, 17:11:45 11/27/02 Wed

24:6 For by wise counsel thou shalt make thy war: and in multitude of counsellors there is safety.

I was thinking about this line from Quentin, too. When I looked up the proverb, I was shocked to see the second half, which he never delivered. It is dripping with irony - and points to the massive hubris of the entire CoW.

Do you think there's any thematic resonance with Buffy's "I am the slayer" code and the whole superiority/inferiority complex? We've already talked about how Buffy has shown a few times this season (most notably when she went to "kill?" Anya - and in her dialogue with VampHolden) that she is relying a lot on the "slayer" mode of thinking. Buffy has felt that she, ultimately, has no "wise counsel" to base her decisions on. Ultimately, the slayer has only her own instincts, experience, and ethics to fall back on when making those really tough choices.

When Giles left Sunnydale last year, his offered reason was that Buffy needed to grow up and start doing things for herself, making decisions for herself, etc. But we've also seen that the converse is true. Being an adult also means knowing when to ask for help.

My interpretation of Proverbs 24 - the entire thing - is that it primarily tells people to take confidence in a government (or governing system - can apply to most social structures, like religion) of wise judges and counselors. It's sort of like a Proverbs precursor to the idea of social contracts. We insure our continued safety (or religious growth, or pursuit of happiness) by submitting ourselves to being governed.

The proverb, interpretted in that light, becomes even more ironic in the scope of BtVS. Buffy and Giles have both rejected the CoW as a governing body. The scooby gang have become their own counsil. Since the Glory era, the only useful role the CoW has had in Buffy's life is in giving information.

Also, remember in Checkpoint, Buffy's conversation with Quentin?

Buffy: There isn't gonna be a review.
Quentin: Sorry?
Buffy: No review. No interrogation. No questions you know I can't answer. No hoops. No jumps. (Nigel is about to speak.) No interruptions. See, I've had a lot of people talking at me in the last few days. Everyone just lining up to tell me how unimportant I am. And I've finally figured out why. Power. I have it. They don't. This bothers them. Glory came to my home today.
Giles: Buffy are you all—
Buffy: Just to talk. She told me I'm a bug, I'm a flea, she could squash me in a second. Only she didn't. She came into my home, and we talked. We had what in her warped brain probably passes for a civilized conversation. Why? Because she needs something from me. Because I have power over her. You guys didn't come all the way from England to determine whether I was good enough to be let back in. You came to beg me to let you back in. To give your jobs, your lives, some semblance of meaning.
Nigel: This is beyond insolence— (Buffy hurls the sword at him, which he must jump aside to avoid.)
Buffy: I'm fairly certain I said no interruptions.
Xander (quietly): That was excellent!
Buffy: You're Watchers. Without a Slayer... you're pretty much just watching Masterpiece Theater. You can't stop Glory. You can't do anything with the information you have, except maybe publish it in the Everyone Thinks We're Insanos Home Journal.

It's all about power, right? Power, power, who's got the power? From what we saw of the CoW in this episode, they don't seem to be watching Masterpiece Theatre without Buffy's allegiance and support, nor have they learned to give Buffy the information she needs to do her job. I'm kiinda hoping that Quentin survived the explosion so that he can show up in Sunnydale a humbled and desperate man - no masks, no British dodginess, just some long awaited answers about the CoW and what's going on.
[> I was thinking of you the whole time...d'H -- Dead Soul, 23:25:55 11/27/02 Wed

Well, until the half Nekkid!Spike, that is.

Dead (and pining for the Fjanged Fjic) Soul
The degradation of evil (random theological meandering - minor spoilers for 7:9 and earlier S7) -- KdS, 06:03:08 11/27/02 Wed

Reports that Andrew is seen dressed as Spike in the course of 7:9 have made me expand my earlier thoughts about Warren as imitator of Spike.

Over the past seven seasons of BtVS it's become clearer and clearer that some of our most memorable villains owe an obvious intellectual and emotional debt to each other. Angelus mocks, parodies and reacts against the Master (Darla). Spike mocks, parodies and reacts against Angelus (Fool For Love). As we move from demon to human we lose the originality and deliberate parody in favour of slavish imitation and accidental parody. Warren imitates Spike, can't achieve the glamour and only manages to become frightening, comical, and repellant. At the ultimate level of degradation (both moral degradation and the degradation of quality that comes with repeated photocopying), Andrew, such is his lack of imagination and ambition, imitates Warren imitating Spike and doesn't even manage to be scary.

It seems to be common in world religious systems for evil to be characterised in terms of parody. Christian Satanists recite the High Mass backwards while fornicating with a living altar. On the other side of the Earth Navajo witches (according to Tony Hillerman) are alleged to produce deliberately perverted versions of benevolent healing designs. Evil walks at night and sleeps by day, inverting the natural pattern. And what about AtS's most memorable episode opening, as a lurking Spike parodies an oblivious Angel in In The Dark? How about Harmony's lowest point as she is reduced to imitating her sexual partner's preferred woman?

On the accidental level, Satan and his demons parody God and the angels, as Hell parodies Heaven. Tolkien took this Christian trope in his Middle Earth work. Saruman is a weaker, more pathetic shadow of Sauron just as Sauron is a weaker former-servant-turned-imitator of Tolkein's Satan figure Melkor/Morgoth. Even a non-Christian (at times even anti-Christian) fantasy author like Michael Moorcock had Jerry Cornelius as heroic rogue, while his brother Frank is a seedy, drug-addicted would-be supervillain, playing the same role to Jerry as Warren does to Spike.

Maybe good genuinely finds its own path, while evil parrots tired and invertedly conformist slogans of rebellion?
[> Parodies (minor spoiler for Never Leave me. No other Season7 spoilers at all) -- Rahael, 06:37:56 11/27/02 Wed

I thought of your Warren Spike essay when I read the wildfeed for Never Leave me!

Further thoughts on parody. It strikes me that the Master in Season 1 constantly parodied the language of the Bible, and Christian ceremony.

Not only was his ritual language pseudo-Biblical, it had explicit resonances. Luke says to the Master: 'my blood is your blood. My soul is your soul' and later, when he prepares to bite Buffy, he says: "Master, taste of this, and be free". The Master talks about "degradation most holy", and lives in a church. Does Evil enjoy parodying good, in order to both degrade it and subvert it?
[> [> Oh, yeah... -- KdS, 08:44:25 11/27/02 Wed

I remembered the Master's anti-Christian parodies after getting up from the computer. As I say, the mockery-of-good and inversion tropes seem to crop up all over the world when cultures start to invent their Big Bad Evils. Does Hinduism have anything similar? (By the way, in case it wasn't obvious in my earlier post, most non-fundamentalist religious scholars believe that Satanism in the Black Mass sense was invented by the Christian writers who first started denouncing it. Then some people who liked to think of themselves as naughty started following the instructions. Wheels within wheels.)

Although the business with the Master I like to think as personal. With his interest in hierarchy, ritual, compulsive badmouthing of specifically Christian symbolism, I think ol' prune face was a Catholic priest before he got bit... Maybe next time we meet up in London we should just take a dictaphone and post the whole damn transcript :-)

By the way, Rah, do you know how the indexing works? I tried to find my Warren essay on the archives and couldn't find it even though I could find the other topics around the same time...
[> [> [> The only real non-parody I can think of is Milton's Satan. -- Sophist, 09:10:49 11/27/02 Wed

And, of course, Milton was heavily criticized for making his Satan too sympathetic. Perhaps the parodic (is that a word?) elements in baddies are necessary for us to accept their portrayal in fiction.

Real life evil is, unfortunately, not so comforting.
[> [> [> [> Evil by nature is a parody -- Charlemagne20, 23:15:59 11/27/02 Wed

One of my favorite philosophies is that EVIL is simply twistations of natural and 'good' ideas so that there is really nothinG EVIL in the world because it's only fun house mirror excesses and distortion of ideas that all start as good.

Milton's Satan also immitates Augustus Caesar in some respects and other Maciavellian politicans by taking risk less missions to make himself seem brave
[> [> [> Re: Oh, yeah... -- Rahael, 09:12:31 11/27/02 Wed

I agree with your Master-was-once-a-priest theory. WHich is supported by the fact that when he goes to meet the dying, human Darla in Virginia, he dresses as a priest to do so. More inversion.

As for indexing, your Warren essay may be in archive limbo, in that it's fallen of the temp archive pages (listed 1-5 at the top right hand of the board) and it's waiting to be put into the archives proper.

What I find the best way to search for any item in the archives is to google it - an exact phrase, title and the name of the poster. Google task bar site searches are even more effective.

As for the Hinduism trope question - oh, it's such an immense question, I'd have no way to answer it. It should be noted that Hindu Gods don't always behave impeccably. They tend to resemble the Greek Gods, only more mischievous. And Shiva is both destroyer and creator of the Universe - so he contains many complexities. Of course, I'm no expert, only an observer of the Hindu religious tradition. And, Hinduism contains lots of different narratives. Even say, the mahabaratha had lots of different versions depending on region/village.
[> [> [> [> A little narrower... -- KdS, 12:01:43 11/27/02 Wed

I wasn't thinking of a broad evil-as-parody thing, but just wondering if there's any Hindu manifestation of the "secret evil subculture who do black magic and invert good rituals" conspiracy theory.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: A little narrower... -- Slain, 17:44:38 11/27/02 Wed

I don't think so, because Hinduism doesn't have the same structure that the Catholic church did; historically it isn't threatened by unbelievers, as under a Hindu system everyone ultimately worships the same God, even if they aren't Hindu. There are certainly plenty of Hindu cults concerned with things conventionally thought of as 'evil' (trying the bring about the destruction of the world, for example), but I don't know what methods they might use. So it might be the case that those who worship the destructive part of a god would invert the practices of those who worship a more benevolent aspect. But there isn't the conspiracy theory, because there isn't the idea of a conspiracy against the faith from within; everything is faith.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: A little narrower... -- Rahael, 07:56:56 11/28/02 Thu

KdS, I will check up on this and get back to you!
[> [> [> Re: Oh, yeah... -- Arethusa, 07:43:07 11/28/02 Thu

Although the business with the Master I like to think as personal. With his interest in hierarchy, ritual, compulsive badmouthing of specifically Christian symbolism, I think ol' prune face was a Catholic priest before he got bit...

That's a great idea, especially since he came to the dying Darla disguised as a priest. (Were there practicing priests in Colonial America, if that's where she was? Religious tolerance for most very early Americans began and ended on their own doorsteps.)
[> [> [> [> Ignore my above post. -- Arethusa, 07:49:22 11/28/02 Thu

Note to self: read the whole thread before posting.
I shall not be Conquered......Invictus and Buffy -- Rufus, 06:54:52 11/27/02 Wed

It has already been pointed out on the board that the words Travers uses near the end of "Never Leave Me" are from the poem "Invictus" by WE. Henley. It is a simple poem that speaks to me of courage.

"Out of the night that covers me.
Black as the pit from pole to pole,
I thank whatever gods may be,
For my unconquerable soul.

In the fell clutch of circumstance
I have not winced or cried aloud.
Under the bludgeonings of chance
My head is bloody but unbowed.

Beyond this place of wrath and tears
Looms but the horror of the shade,
And yet the menace of the years
Finds and shall find me unafraid.

It matters not how straight the gate
How charged with punishments the scroll,.
I am the master of my fate,
I am the captain of my soul."


So why these words and why now. Travers didn't quote directly, he did change a few of the words...

Travers: WE ARE CRIPPLED. IT'S ALL RIGHT, LYDIA. WE ARE STILL
MASTERS OF OUR FATE, WE ARE STILL CAPTAINS OF OUR SOULS.

I went in search of what this poem meant to people who are damned smarter than me and found this, an interview with English Professor Marion Hoctor...the full interview here.

I will use parts of the interview for points I'll make about ths show......

CNN: How does this poem fit in the prevailing philosophy of the Victorian age?
HOCTOR: What one would say about major Victorian writers and thinkers is that they set aside Christianity -- the dominant form of religion then -- some of them regretfully set it aside and said it belongs to another world. They believed there are dark and complex questions in this world that religion cannot address.
The poem is powerful expression of stoicism -- you fall back on your own resources, you don’t fall back on religious resources. If you are going to truly be "invictus" -- which is Latin for unconquered -- you must be true to your own convictions.
So "Invictus" means "I have not been conquered." The business about the gods, where Henley writes "I thank whatever gods may be for my unconquerable soul", is quite dismissive. "Gods" is lower-case, and the line says they "may be." He's saying "I'm in possession of my fate, I have been strong, I haven't cried, or winced" in the face of the "bludgeoning of chance." Henley is referring to the death of his child and health problems -- which left him terribly wounded, but not unbowed.

It's quite the irony that Travers would make a declaration of total control just before the building the Watchers are in explodes. In his arrogance he is indeed conquered. To the end he called Buffy "the Girl" referring to her in an impersonal way......she considered an instrument to the end. But even though Travers quoted Henley, the words could be used to describe the Scoobies and Buffy. Perhaps maybe even Spike but that is thinking ahead. Whedon and Co. reference religion but don't like to be pinned down to a particular one, taking what they need for the story and leaving the interpertation to us.

In the lines that Travers borrowed from Professor Hoctor said this.......

The lines describe determination and a summoning up of every ounce of strength -- to overcome with courage and strength which is my own and is not siphoned off from an archaic religious tradition.
In Hebrew, "I am" is the word for God -- (I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul).

By the end of the episode the only people who appear to be standing are Buffy and her friends, and Spike who is in a more upside down and bleeding position. The thing is they are still standing. If anyone is left to be the captains of their souls it is the ones who have been in the fight from the beginning of the series.....Buffy and her friends. The Watchers have found out that in their assumption of
invincibility they have been 'crippled'. I found these words from Travers grab me....

Travers: LADIES AND GENTLEMEN...OUR FEARS HAVE BEEN CONFIRMED.
THE FIRST EVIL HAS DECLARED ALL-OUT WAR ON THIS INSTITUTION.
THEIR FIRST VOLLEYS PROVED MOST EFFECTIVE. I, FOR ONE, THINK IT'S TIME WE STRUCK BACK. GET ME CONFIRMATIONS ON ALL REMAINING OPERATIVES, VISUALS AND TACTICALS, HIGHEST ALERT. GET THEM HERE
AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. BEGIN PREPARATIONS FOR MOBILIZATION.
ONCE WE'RE ACCOUNTED FOR, I WANT TO BE READY TO MOVE.

Watcher: SIR?

Travers: WE'LL BE PAYING A VISIT TO THE HELLMOUTH. MY FRIENDS,
THESE ARE THE TIMES THAT DEFINE US. PROVERBS 24:6, "FOR BY WISE COUNSEL, YOU SHALL MAKE YOUR WAR." (Watchers Council Building Blows Up)

I don't think that definition will be anything the Watchers will be engaging in anymore. From the beginning of the series we have known that the battle between good and evil has been considered by the Watchers to be more Evil against Them, the Slayers they train only instruments in their war. These are new times and it looks like a big dust up is about to begin. I see the Watchers like the old type of religion, something that has to be reevaluated. It is Buffy who has fought, died, and come back to fight more. She has seen the First before, she has been fighting the fight. No matter what they do to her she has never been conquered. It is the love in her soul that is the driving force for the new battle, the one that the Watchers have been forced out of by their own lack of vision.

Marion Hoctor said that "I am" means God but for the purpose of the poem it also means that we are a bit of the divine, each of us, all able to be the Captain of our souls. It is what we do when circumstances seem the most bleak that determines if we will be conquered. The Watchers have been, Buffy and her friends have not. What makes them different isn't strength or numbers but the conviction that they have to go on no matter what happens. No matter what Buffy has done, how she has suffered she has gone on because it has been the right thing to do. Then there is Spike....even upside down and bleeding he is now in a position to be the captain of his newly returned soul....all the people involved can suffer but go on, never to be conquered.
[> Spoilers for Buffy 7.9 Never Leave Me in my above post. -- Rufus, 07:05:22 11/27/02 Wed

[> Spoilers for Never Leave Me, in this post and above too -- Rahael, 07:06:45 11/27/02 Wed

I think the quotage is totally ironic. What's more, when Travers says it, there is also an ironic counterpoint with Spike.

Is he the master of his soul? Or is Spike, at this point, mastered. In this ep, he is tied up, and used to bring forth evil.

This deep ambiguity of Spike's relationship with his soul goes back all the way to the cave last season.

I don't think, at this moment, we are meant to read it as a message of courage and independence. I think it;s meant to make slavery and defeat seem even more poignant. Also remember, we can't hear Invictus anymore without thinking of the other notorious, modern public use of Invictus, where it has been associated, quite simply, with criminal behaviour, and perhaps even, what you could call, evil.
[> [> Re: Spoilers for Never Leave Me, in this post and above too -- Rufus, 07:23:28 11/27/02 Wed

I don't think, at this moment, we are meant to read it as a message of courage and independence. I think it;s meant to make slavery and defeat seem even more poignant. Also remember, we can't hear Invictus anymore without thinking of the other notorious, modern public use of Invictus, where it has been associated, quite simply, with criminal behaviour, and perhaps even, what you could call, evil.

I see both. It looks bad for the Scoobies and Buffy.....Spike has a new perspective on what he is or has been as a demon....he has met what he really is....not what he tried to get Buffy to see. He is facing his monster in corporeal form...he can see what has lived inside for these many years. As he now has a soul he has an opportunity that he couldn't have understood before....what he does now will be a result of him actualizing that spark inside that had been missing and do something he would never have considered for so many years.

Words can inspire and cause action, but it is what we do, we captains of our own souls do with those words that make them either evil or wonderful.
[> [> [> Re:Spoilers for Never Leave Me -- ponygirl, 07:49:40 11/27/02 Wed

Screw actualization! I want a rescue mission! Stat!

I'm not holding my breath though. Did anyone else think when Xander commented on how that Harbringers were fast and organized that that was everything the Scoobs were not?

Actually a rescue attempt by Buffy might address something that's bugged me since season 3 -- Buffy sent Angel to Hell but she never tried to get him back, or find out his fate.
[> [> [> [> LOL.........is that a Wish? -- Rufus, 07:57:22 11/27/02 Wed

[> [> [> The whole question is... -- KdS, 08:52:10 11/27/02 Wed

The poem's all about being true to your own beliefs and nature. Question is, what are those beliefs and nature? If you're talking about McVeigh, I'm sure he believed he was a freedom fighter and that the people who died got what they thoroughly deserved. Not trying to be a moral relativist here, positively the opposite. There's nothing good about self-created belief, but nothing evil either. You've got to work out what the belief is and how you feel about it. Maybe I'm naive, but I think there are very few people outside fiction who wake up and think "What evil stuff am I going to do today?"
[> [> Re: Spoilers for Never Leave Me, in this post and above too -- J, 08:20:12 11/27/02 Wed

I don't think, at this moment, we are meant to read it as a message of courage and independence. I think it;s meant to make slavery and defeat seem even more poignant. Also remember, we can't hear Invictus anymore without thinking of the other notorious, modern public use of Invictus, where it has been associated, quite simply, with criminal behaviour, and perhaps even, what you could call, evil.

It seems to me that ME is playing on this 'notorious' use of Invictus. It's no accident that the Watcher's Council headquarters were destroyed in an explosion rather than in some other way--the last words of Oklahoma City bomber Tim McVeigh were a quote from Invictus. Perhaps that's what you were alluding to, but I wasn't totally clear from your post.
[> [> [> Nevermind, it's in D'H's post below - d'oh! -- J, 08:58:12 11/27/02 Wed

[> Re: I shall not be Conquered......Invictus and Buffy -- Jay, 07:54:48 11/27/02 Wed

I mentioned this in a post in response to Rochefort down the board, but I haven't seen anyone address it. Do we know that was the watchers council building that blew up. Preceding that scene with all the quotes was a street shot of London panning up to a building, leading us to believe "in here" is the watchers council. After that scene, the building that blows up is a different building. Different color, different architecture. I just find it strange that we would be shown two different buildings around that scene. Q and the gang may be toast, but I think we've been shown a slight of hand.

Gotta pretend to be working.
[> Re: I shall not be Conquered......Invictus and Buffy -- CW, 08:46:43 11/27/02 Wed

Just to be contentious ;o)

Actually, I think Hoctor (and others certainly) is wrong about those last two lines. I don't think they can refer to god (capital G or no). Britain, of course, was the most impotant naval power throughout the nineteenth century. The terminology of the sea was most important. The terms master and captain in the poem a not idle choices. A captain of a ship in the navy during the sailing era was indeed the man in charge of everything to do with the crew and had the authority to give the orders where the ship should go, etc. But it was, in fact, the master, who was often a civilian employee of the navy, who was actually in charge handling the ship, setting the course which the captain ordered, making sure the ship didn't end up on the rocks in dangerous waters, etc. On civilian ships often someone who called himself the captain owned the ship, where as a person doing the same duties on a ship someone else owned would often be called the master of the ship.

Therefore Henley wasn't saying God was both the master of his fate and captain of his soul. The speaker in the poem was the master of his fate; not it's owner or ultimate director, but the person concerned with guiding it, day by day. Conversely, the speaker is the owner and ultimate director of his soul.

I have to say that Spike at the moment is neither.
[> [> Try " ...was the most important naval power." Yipes! And sorry! -- CW, 08:53:10 11/27/02 Wed

[> [> [> Freudian slip? ;) -- Slain, 17:33:23 11/27/02 Wed

[> [> Re: I shall not be Conquered......Invictus and Buffy -- Rufus, 18:26:03 11/27/02 Wed

Therefore Henley wasn't saying God was both the master of his fate and captain of his soul. The speaker in the poem was the master of his fate; not it's owner or ultimate director, but the person concerned with guiding it, day by day. Conversely, the speaker is the owner and ultimate director of his soul. CW

HOCTOR: What one would say about major Victorian writers and thinkers is that they set aside Christianity -- the dominant form of religion then -- some of them regretfully set it aside and said it belongs to another world. They believed there are dark and complex questions in this world that religion cannot address. The poem is powerful expression of stoicism -- you fall back on your own resources, you don’t fall back on religious resources. If you are going to truly be "invictus" -- which is Latin for unconquered -- you must be true to your own convictions.

The lines describe determination and a summoning up of every ounce of strength -- to overcome with courage and strength which is my own and is not siphoned off from an archaic religious tradition.In Hebrew, "I am" is the word for God -- (I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul).


What you said is what I got out of what Marion Hoctor said. If you look at what was said in Beneath You, by Spike, he was going on about the Spark.....the thing he went to get so he could fit in with Buffy's life. He feels and I think rightly so that it was his lack of the Spark that caused him to continuously be rejected. But once he got his soul he was so overcome with emotion he became open to manipulation by the First Evil. Hoctor isn't saying we are God, what she says is....

The business about the gods, where Henley writes "I thank whatever gods may be for my unconquerable soul", is quite dismissive. "Gods" is lower-case, and the line says they "may be." He's saying "I'm in possession of my fate, I have been strong, I haven't cried, or winced" in the face of the "bludgeoning of chance."

It is not god or satan that possesses the ultimate outcome of our life but what we do as masters of our fate, Captains of our soul. Each character has remained true to their convictions such as the Watchers who felt they were immune to outside powers because of the strength of their institution alone. Buffy has also remained true to her convictions even if she makes mistakes she has remained true to herself. Instead of looking to others sources for the whole solution, Buffy looks within....

"If you bring forth what is within you, what you bring forth will save you. If you do not bring forth what is within you, what you do not bring forth will destroy you." Gnostic Gospels

Even in Becoming 2, Buffy knew that when all was at a most desperate moment there is only her and trust what was within. Buffy is the master of her fate, captain of her soul.....just as we all are. As for Spike....he is in a state where he could go either way, he could withdraw and decide to no longer participate in "this dark ugly business" like he did as William in Fool for Love....or he could become empowered by being honest with himself like he was being in Never Leave Me. His revelation of what a "real vampire" is could be part of what causes him to continue the breakthrough and find himself and become the master of his fate, captain of his returned soul.
[> [> [> Re: I shall not be Conquered......Invictus and Buffy -- CW, 20:26:25 11/27/02 Wed

No, you missed the argument completely. Master and captain were loaded words and they are not interchangeable. The way Hoctor says it suggests that God is the owner of the soul (religious concepts belong to god), but only an underling as far as fate goes (real life belongs to man). That's more a 20th century Humanist thing to say. What Henley said was man is the owner of his soul, and only a subordinate as far as fate. That is about as close as you can get to Protestant philosophy with so few words. You're welcome to interpret it either way, of course. But, there is a huge philosophic difference between the positions. As far as Buffy is concerned we might look back to what defeated the First Evil's plan to destroy Angel in season three. It was a freak snow storm. It proves nothing about the poem. But, it does show that even in a world created by an atheist that fate can be beyond all the players we see, including 'minor gods' like Glory and the First Evil. It's almost as if Joss acting as Paul Tillich's 'God beyond God,' is looming out there above Buffyland saying to himself, "Okay, you bad guys, have your fun. But, woe unto you, who mess with my Buffy. Know ye, that when the season ends my plan for Buffy wins whether she realizes it or not."

Is Professor Hoctor a woman? Isn't Marion (as opposed to Marian) a man's name, as in Marion Morrison better known as John Wayne?
[> [> [> [> Re: I shall not be Conquered......Invictus and Buffy -- Rufus, 21:41:22 11/27/02 Wed

No, you missed the argument completely. Master and captain were loaded words and they are not interchangeable.

No, I just ignored it and came to my conclusion without placing too much meaning on the difference between the two words.

Is Professor Hoctor a woman? Isn't Marion (as opposed to Marian) a man's name, as in Marion Morrison better known as John Wayne?

If you go to the original article that I linked to you will see that yes, she is a woman, and how they have the name.
[> [> [> [> [> Fair enough. ;o) -- CW, 04:36:34 11/28/02 Thu

[> 'I am' -- Tchaikovsky, 09:22:50 11/27/02 Wed

A lot of interesting talk about 'I am', and whether we're supposed to think of Yahweh, or whether it's just an assertion.

It vaguely strikes me as a counterpoint for the beautiful but despairing poem 'I am', by John Clare:

I am! yet what I am none cares or knows,
My friends forsake me like a memory lost;
I am the self-consumer of my woes,
They rise and vanish in oblivious host,
Like shades in love and death's oblivion lost;
And yet I am! and live with shadows tost

Into the nothingness of scorn and noise,
Into the living sea of waking dreams,
Where there is neither sense of life nor joys,
But the vast shipwreck of my life's esteems;
And e'en the dearest--that I loved the best--
Are strange--nay, rather stranger than the rest.

I long for scenes where man has never trod,
A place where woman never smil'd or wept;
There to abide with my creator, God,
And sleep as I in childhood sweetly slept:
Untroubling and untroubled where I lie;
The grass below--above the vaulted sky.

Henley's seems like a rather more positive, (maybe even militaristic or arrogant) counterpoint to this poem.

Just a thought

TCH
The return of... the House Metaphor (spoilers up to 7.9) -- ponygirl, 07:00:28 11/27/02 Wed

When last I spotted my favourite metaphor it was being explored in Normal Again (though it flitted about in SR). There we saw the Summers' house as a representation of Buffy's psyche, under the influence of her delusions she retreated to her bedroom on the uppermost floor of the house, while in the basement a demon lurked. Spike in that episode tried to bridge the gap, moving from basement to bedroom. But Buffy had surrounded herself in light to the exclusion of all else and he could not approach her. Furthermore his threats to expose her dark secrets caused her to move further away from reality, and she ended up locking her friends down in the basement for the convenient demon to devour. Buffy of course was able regain control and stop the demon, but her hold on reality was tenuous and at the end of the episode she had not left the basement.

I had almost expected Buffy to put Spike back in the basement with this episode, it would have been justified, and from a vampire storage perspective it make sense, but instead she bring him into her bedroom. Not the bedroom of her adolescence but a more adult room -- contrast her room to the girlishness of Dawn's where Anya and Xander enact a childish drama for Andrew's benefit.

Spike, in this episode is not only a character in his own right, he also represents Buffy's darkness. And she deals surprisingly well, trying to talk, but not press him, acknowledging his animalistic need for blood without any hint of distaste. It's only when Spike goes completely id, and starts breaking down the walls, notably the one between her room and Dawn's (maybe that wall needs to be there), that she uses violence.

So Buffy has her Monster back in the basement, but again she demonstrates how much she has changed. She treats him tenderly and with compassion. Even when Spike suggests that his nature is far darker than she had ever imagined she doesn't turn away. She does get defensive, but hey, she's Buffy, and the season's not over yet. Again she does something remarkable for her, she acknowledges the truth in what he says, and doesn't turn away. Instead she sees Spike for what he is, and more importantly what he can become. She allows him the change and growth that he has worked so hard for, and offers faith. She is not longer seeking to hide her demon away, she is seeking to harness its power, and more importantly she is offering Spike the chance to become a person in his own right. Unfortunately at this point, just when internally Buffy seems to be reaching something, external forces attack her house.

Buffy has a long way to go before her house is in order, the destroyed living room at the start of the episode, and the Scoobies' comments in this the most social room of the house, suggest that there is strain in Buffy's relationships with her friends. Also the number of recent attacks against her house make me wonder if she's going to have to completely rebuild, or move on from this structure entirely. But Buffy's new ability to negotiate the gap between the upper and the lower parts of her nature - the bedroom and the basement - point to all that she has achieved since last year.


Whew! Had to get that out of my system! Now to check out the rest of the board.
[> Very good points, Rufus! -- Caroline, 07:11:49 11/27/02 Wed

I agree with you about what is going on with Buffy and the house metaphor. I thought it was interesting that Buffy was rebuilding her relationship with Spike and her own darkness in the basement - starting with a good foundation.

The external forces that attack her home represent the trials and tests that must be withstood to ensure that the new structure that has been built is worthwhile and true to oneself. Hopefully, Buffy is building her psychological structures well and will rise unconquered (and not be destroyed by hubris, in the way Quentin and the CoW were).
[> [> Sorry can't be taking credit for what ponygirl says......;) -- Rufus, 07:26:01 11/27/02 Wed

[> [> [> Howzabout I take credit for what you say? ;) -- ponygirl wanting to sound smart, 07:30:15 11/27/02 Wed

[> [> [> [> Only when what I say pisses everyone off.....:):):):):):) -- Rufus, 07:33:55 11/27/02 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> Oh my god! -- Caroline, 09:11:45 11/27/02 Wed

Sorry ponygirl and Rufus. Of course, I think that both of you are brilliant but I didn't mean to get you confused. That's what happens when you try to post on the way to a meeting!
[> Re: The return of... the House Metaphor (spoilers up to 7.9) -- frisby, 07:55:32 11/27/02 Wed

Nice stuff in your system there. I'd forgotten the importance of the house. And Spike tearing down the walls -- very good. But one further thing from the final conversation of Buffy with Spike. He analyzes her need for hate (thus using him) and she replies "yes but not anymore" which I now read as signifying a big change or development in the evolution of her character. She has changed Spike (she has watched him face the monster within and become a better man) but he has changed her too (overcoming her need for hate as a source of power). But what is Buffy to yet become? (Do we know? Do we have any idea?)

And yes, just as the high school is gone, and the initiative filled in, and the magic shop destroyed, I think we might see the Summers residence finally put to rest too, this season.
[> [> Re: The return of... the House Metaphor (spoilers up to 7.9) -- luna, 06:26:19 11/29/02 Fri

"She has changed Spike (she has watched him face the monster within and become a better man) but he has changed her too (overcoming her need for hate as a source of power). But what is Buffy to yet become? (Do we know? Do we have any idea?)"

Of course for some of us, there's an element of wanting to see Buffy develop real adult feelings for Spike. Her love for Angel now looks a lot like an adolescent crush, like Dawn's feelings in "Him." But of course if that happens, if Buffy does admit to/develop a real feeling for Spike (not the ones she's owned up to so far), it really will be the end of the series--I think one of the things that really keeps vieweres tied in right now is the Buffy-Spike tension and ambiguity. At the same time, it can't be kept up forever. Interesting to see how long ME can maintain the balance.
[> May I ask your opinion of Wood's "House"? -- neaux, 07:56:47 11/27/02 Wed

While we are unsure of Principal Wood's association, I would like to hear your ideas on Principal Wood's "HOUSE".

I find the school to be his abode and his wishes to keep it clean. The painting of the walls was really the only option he gave to the delinquent kids. And although the removal of Johnathon from the basement might prove some different motives, I would like to think again he was just keeping a clean atmosphere.
[> [> Re: May I ask your opinion of Wood's "House"? -- ponygirl, 08:19:48 11/27/02 Wed

Oooh nice idea! And it gives an explanation for Wood's prolonged opening scene that isn't "it was funny" or "it gave him more lines". I really don't know the motivation behind Wood's "house-keeping", we're obviously meant to see a parallel between Wood's behaviour and Spike's, but it seemed to me to be too obvious a connection. I also thought there was a weird emphasis on "soldier" in his line to Dawn about soldiering on without Buffy, but what it all means I haven't the foggiest. Perhaps he simply wants to maintain the structure of the school, his house, no matter what it is concealing.

I said it from the start, I don't trust that guy!
[> [> [> LOL! -- neaux, 08:25:28 11/27/02 Wed

[> Excellent points, ponygirl! -- HonorH, 08:05:13 11/27/02 Wed

I'll have to comment more specifically when I get the time (must eat & run now), but excellent points! The metaphor is spot-on for this episode.
[> "I Have a House to Build" -- cjl, 08:16:21 11/27/02 Wed

Xander could have been saying this about the Summers house-- but he's also been re-building the school. If house metaphors are running rampant here, how does our favorite carpenter fit in?
[> [> Gothic Xander -- Slain, 17:31:30 11/27/02 Wed

Well, looking at this in a Gothic sense, the house often symbolises the repressed; skeletons in closets, as in Poe's the 'Fall of the House of Usher'. In that sense, someone trying to repair the house would be, in a way, assisting that repression, usually in a futile way. There aren't any builders in the house of Usher, but if there were then their task would have been futile; trying to patch up a problem is just another way of tighening the repression. And the repressed, however much repressed, always returns.

In terms of building the school, it would follow that Xander is an instrument of the gothic repression; he's complicit in the repression, and therefore presumably especially vulnerable when the things that have been trapped in the school come out.

In terms of Buffy's house, Xander helps to fix and tidy away the physical rememberances of past events; broken windows, walls, furniture. It could be said that he helps add skeltons to the closet, by trying to brush the memories under the carpet (which is a nice mixed-metaphor for you). Xander would then be like the Ushers; trying to keep things ordered and hidden away. Which does add credence to ponygirl's suggestion that perhaps the Scoobies should be starting afresh and skelton-free, rather than patching up their existing closet.

Of course, that's only a Gothic interpretation; Xander would have probably said the House of Usher fell because of undermining from unstable ground and shoddy foundations, which his firm could have done a much better job on.
[> Re: The return of... the House Metaphor (spoilers up to 7.9) -- Sophie, 15:56:49 11/27/02 Wed

I thought it was interesting how in the past, Buffy's house protected her (as one's home is supposed to do), but now Buffy's is easily damaged and lets in all sorts of evil. Honestly, waiting for the house to fall down. Then what?

S
[> Re: The return of... the House Metaphor (spoilers up to 7.9) -- shadowkat, 20:30:03 11/27/02 Wed

I like the house metaphor. Particularly since they seem to be using it a lot this year - along with hearts and webs.
Which I think I can connect.

I know at Thanksgiving Time - I journey down to wherever my parents home is, which once was in Kansas City (home of my adolescence), previously in West Chester, PA (home of my childhood), and now as an adult they've retired to Hilton Head Island - and yes it still contains portions of my childhood, adolescence and twenty-something college years - with the assorted psychology, myth, english, and law books on the shelves, the comic books in the closet and other childhood toys I won't mention. So on holidays - I feel comforted in this home - because it still contains portions of my child's heart inside it. Buffy similarly has her heart in her home. In her mother's bedroom - there are the candles and the frilly covering and photos, as well as the bullet hole from the bullet that killed Tara, in Dawn's bedroom there was once the zombie mask and her mother's art gallery paintings, a den, now it is her sister's bedroom, and the living room is where she and her friends had their Restless Dreams. The house has suffered many an incident.
In Dead Man's Party - zombies tore it apart but it withstood them, in Becoming - it was the safe haven for Spike and Buffy to plan their truce and battle against Angelus, in Restless - it was the safe haven after Adam, yet also where the First Slayer invaded their dreams.

It has been flooded with water and bills. It has sealed them inside when a demon inexplicably jumps at them through it's walls. But Buffy has always felt safe there - even when a mad robot wouldbe stepfather attempted to kill her.

Our childhood home carries both our demons and our dreams.
My demons no longer hide in the walls of my parents house - they traveled with me after my parents sold my childhood home long ago. But Buffy has remained in her's, taking her mothers role while her sister appears to take on portions of her's. So Buffy's still carries the slayed demons of her adolescence and the more elusive ones of adult hood. The first evil is the one demon from her childhood that she never slayed - the one that brought Angel back from hell after she sent him there (still racked with guilt about it, remember the discussion in Selfless?). In fact Buffy's guilt about Angel burst in on her destroying portions of her house in Dead Man's Party. And Angel's guilt? Well it took the form of the First Evil in Amends.

There are spiderwebs in houses - hanging forgotten in the corners near the ceiling, like the demon spider lurking in Selfless. An odd episode Selfless - as it relates to houses - someone, I think it was OM said that the beginning scene in Buffy's house - Buffy's old bedroom that Willow now occupies -was lit in an odd manner, almost too soft, childlike? And Willow is in childish clothes - cute pigtail, t-shirt, tights, like the Willow of Season 2. Then later we see the threesome arguing in Buffy's living room.
The living room is the heart of the house - it is where most of the debates happen. (We used to have these meetings in the Magic Box which has been demolished - will get to demolished buildings later - another metaphor.) Back to webs. Spike breaks through the wall and grabs Andrew in a spiderish fashion, pulling him through the wall then bits him like a spider would. (NLM) Later in the basement of the school - another building - we see Spike on a wooden cross that's backing makes me think of a web just like the seal opening beneath him feels like a spider's web, as his "heart's blood" drips down into it.

Hmmm - in another post I mentioned that they sacrificed Jonathan because he was the heart of the Trioka. His heart's blood. I believed Xander was next. But Spike makes more sense for two reasons:1. He is a vampire and spilling his blood won't kill him (so it's practical from a writing standpoint) 2. His heart is connected to the human and vampire world. Also the FE went to a lot of trouble to fill Spike up with the blood of humans - like filling a spider or sack - filling the heart. Notice that when they drip Spike's blood - the don't cut his arms - they cut his chest - where the blood would be closest to his heart.
(A sacrificial image that goes back to Giles' dream in Restless - where he is posing as a sacrifice). His heart's blood as Buffy's blood once did in Prophecy Girl - frees a vampiric creature, that makes me think of a spider for some reason. (I just saw Harry Potter and must have spiders on the brain.) The connection or web? The blood spike drank was from a chain or web of people and has raised something feeding off of it. Just as Angelus' blood and chain of victims opens up Acathala and shuts Acathala. Blood connects us.

Back to houses or buildings. If the Summers home is the heart of Buffy's childhood, adolescence and coming adulthood, the one stable building in her life that she has not completely destroyed, the rebuilt school is the heart of the unresolved demons of her and her friends and the town of Sunnydale's adolescence. We will never slay all those demons. The best we can do? Is to some times let them go. OR perhaps the school represents unfinished business?
So many people hold on to high school - whether it be the picture of their highschool sweetheart, that old graduation hat, or in Lance's case the letter jacket. Jonathan returns to the high school because he feels a need to reconnect with a student body that has no doubt forgotten him. To deal with those lost hopes and dreams, perhaps? Or to somehow redeem old mistakes that still haunt him. Xander rebuilds the school like the boy who goes back to his high school reunion with wads of money, the great wife, and success. See? I made it. And rebuilding the school in the same spot? It's a bit like sticking the finger to all the things that once scared him. Buffy goes to work in the school as one of the establishment - but she picks a member of the faculty that she admired as a student - the counselor, the one man who helped her before a student took his life. She tries to once again slay the student's demons, this time before they become real. But the school is bubbling with the souls of those she could not save, guilt, past wrongs, past pains, and those unresolved issues?
Come bubbling up.

The walls shift in the school. The floor of the basement is dirt not concrete. The school is not seperated from the earth, the earth is it's foundation and the earth covers the graves of those who could not be saved or those who gave in. It has teeth. The seal is located in the heart of the basement - the boiler room - the part that pumps heat into the rest of the school - pumps in the electricity - makes the school run. And here the First Evil takes up residence. Above this heart lives a kindly principal named Wood, who counsels students in a soft voice and acts as if the world of Sunnydale is a normal one where monsters don't exist - on the surface. Yet we see him travel to the heart of the school with his briefcase in hand and tenderly transport poor Jonathan to another location and bury him.
For nefarious purposes? Or kind ones? Is he a sleeper? Or is he a Snyder? We aren't told. But he goes through three doors to do so, and the first two are windowed doors. He is not hidden from his students. His office has windows.

Speaking of Windows - in HIM, we watch Spike prevent Buffy from killing Wood through the windows of Wood's office. Wood is shown working late - wonder how often? Twice I've counted so far. And why show S/B from a distance through the windows like two characters out of a cartoon?

In Graduation Day - the SG blew up their meeting place, the library, and their second home - the home of their old torments - the school to kill the BB, the ruler of their town, who in turn took out their dictator - the principal.
In Doomed,Season4 the SG return to the scene of the crime and save the day, initiating Spike who had once tried to kill them on these grounds into the group as the vamp discovers he can kill demons and isn't as incapacitated as he thinks.

Now finally -one of the SG has rebuilt the school, the same member who is rebuilding Buffy's house - the builder of the group and incidentially it's human heart. While the outside heart of the group - their link to the underworld - is found in the evil center of the school insane. In LEssons - Buffy is stuck between two people - the vamp in the boiler room who gives her the key to defeating the three vengence spirits and her sister. She goes to save her sister first, resolving to get back to the vamp with the damaged heart later. The school is still standing - stronger than ever - but as is demonstrated by Willow's map in STSP - it also lies at the heart of Sunnydale and over the heart of the evil.

So back to Buffy's house. If the School represents the demon heart. Buffy's house must represent the sacred one?
Yet it has seen death. It is not safe. First Joyce.
Then Tara. Both mother figures. One in the living room - the heart of the house. And the other in the mother's room.
The most disturbing scenes we've seen - have happened here: The AR in Buffy's bathroom, her mother's death, Tara's.
So the safety of this place? Is not so certain.

The First Evil has easy access - grabbing Spike, not once but twice. Spike seemed safer at Xander's place. Visiting Dawn and wrecking the house in the process. And attacking the SG.

Houses and buildings on Btvs aren't very safe come to think of it. Vampires get at Buffy through her windows - even though they need to be invited in first. Zombies enter through the door. The First Evil floats through unencumbered. Perhaps Willow should come up with a spell to protect them?

Anyways it's getting late and I've rambled long enough. In fact I think I lost my point along with my train of thought somewhere in there.

Wishing everyone a Happy Thanksgiving. And Hope this stream of consciousness post on metaphors made at least a modicum of sense to someone besides me.

SK (who doesn't have time to proofread).
[> [> If this is you not proofreading I'd be really awed when you do... -- KdS, 04:46:31 11/28/02 Thu

[> [> Just lovely! -- ponygirl, 06:24:43 11/28/02 Thu

To add to your unsafe buildings: Quentin talks about the First Evil attacking "this institution", not "us", not the Council, but an institution. It implies a building, a structure, something larger and more permanent than the individuals it contains. And then we see in the next scene exactly how fragile that institution is.

Will it be necessary to sweep aside all the old structures? Not rebuild them on the same foundation, like the school, or repair the damage, like Buffy's house, but create something new entirely?
[> [> [> Continuing the thread on buildings -- shadowkat, 20:11:26 11/28/02 Thu

"To add to your unsafe buildings: Quentin talks about the First Evil attacking "this institution", not "us", not the Council, but an institution. It implies a building, a structure, something larger and more permanent than the individuals it contains. And then we see in the next scene exactly how fragile that institution is."

While walking on the beach today, I came up with a few more building metaphors to add to this one.

First COW's headquarters - and I think it's safe to assume those are COW's since we see the building - with London under it - go inside - see COW, then leave again and right after Quentin's remark about how stable their institution is - it explodes - not unlike Angel's first agency. Now of course some of them may have survived - since Wes survived the explosion of Angel's headquarters, but I doubt it. It's more likely at this point that Giles is alive.

Speaking of Giles - isn't it interesting that all the scenes in the early part of the season, Lessons and Beneath You that take place in England - Willow and Giles are NOT in Giles' house but outside it? Either under a tree or in the front or back lawn with the house behind them.

In the scene where Willow mentions that the Earth has teeth, the camera eeriely pulls us back from Willow and Giles through the back door of Giles' house and the corridor so we are looking through the corridor at Giles and Willow, the wooden walls seemingly closing in on us as the camera pullls backwards.

Later, in Beneath You, as Willow procrastinates getting in the cab that we hear honking off stage. She is sitting just inside the door looking out on the green countryside, we and Giles are behind her. We don't see the inside of the house, we are in the hallway looking out. And watch from Giles' pov as Willow exits.

Giles' house is not shown as safe so much as the outside grounds are - the broad open space. When we are in his house, we are cramped and claustrophic and feeling ill at ease.

Xander's apartment is described as a voodoo loung and Xander goes to a lot of effort in Sleeper to open it to the light. And while Spike stays there? He is placed in what Xander calls a closet turned into a room - a cramped space (yeah it's bigger than my kitchen, and the size of my bedroom, but whatever) windowless, with a desk of building plans sitting inside it. Xander's apt btw is the only one we haven't seen demolished.

Anya's apartment is demolished at the beginning of HIM. She is fighting off a demon and Buffy helps her, but not before the demon demolishes most of her apartment - it is the last we see of her in her apartment.

Then there's the frat house in Selfless - what is it with haunted or demon infested frat houses on this show? Buffy and Anya almost tear it apart in their battle. And the boys have their hearts ripped out in it.

Yet - Spike does not attack any of the women victims at the Bronze or inside houses - he appears to make a point of doing it in alley ways or outside the house. Even when one of his victims invites him in - he shakes his head, the demon biting her outside. Why doesn't he go in?

But instead of burying them all in a graveyard, he buries them in the basement of a house - which oddly enough is made of dirt. One wonders about the construction companies in Sunnydale. Why aren't the basement's concrete? So the woman of the house is killed and buried in her basement, along with several other women. (Reminds me of two old horror movies: The Little Girl Who Lived Down the Lane - starring Jodi Foster - the bodies are buried in the basement, and Arsenic and Old Lace - the old biddie aunts bury the bodies in the basement. Classic horror motif.)

Basements. In previous seasons the ugly stuff happened in grave-yards, crypts or even a tower. But not so much basements. This year the big stuff is in basements or enclosed caverns.

Willow is trapped ironically by her friends in an enclosed cavern in STSP with Gnarl. Spike is chained up in Buffy's basement and got his soul in a cavern. Do we have to start below to come above?

Makes me think of the Mos Escher stair metaphor mentioned in Angel. Perhaps Btvs is doing a similar one. Buffy and Spike go down stairs to see the graves in Sleeper. Spike goes upstairs in the Bronze and fights the girl on the balcony, staking her before she falls downstairs. Buffy takes Spike upstairs to live in Xander's closet and upstairs to be questioned in her bedroom. When he proves uncontrollable she brings him back downstairs.

Contrast this to Spike of Season 4 - where he is tied up in the commonroom with everyone in the same room. In Pangs - Something Blue - we see him tied up in Giles living room.
He only decends to Xander's basement in two episodes. Leaving it in the third. And is proven harmless by the time he enters Xander's domain in Season 4. They also did a better job of tying him up in Season 4...but whatever.

Now Spike is back where he started the season, in the boiler room of the school with the first evil and it is literally the three of them in that room. Buffy(aka the first evil), the vampire, and Spilliam.
[> [> [> [> Re: Continuing the thread on buildings -- aliera, 21:37:36 11/28/02 Thu

"First COW's headquarters - and I think it's safe to assume those are COW's since we see the building - with London under it - go inside - see COW, then leave again and right after Quentin's remark about how stable their institution is - it explodes - not unlike Angel's first agency. Now of course some of them may have survived - since Wes survived the explosion of Angel's headquarters, but I doubt it. It's more likely at this point that Giles is alive."

It could very well be; but, there's still a little doubt because some people noticed that it appeared to be a different building and there's the possibility that the Inviticus quote was a reference to McVeigh...wish we didn't have to wait too long for the next ep. Even if so...an institution was blown up. If the COW it's a very different approach than the First is using don't you think? And I for one want more Giles and am finding it very hard to credit that a character of his importance and popularity would have died like that or rather the way it was done in the prior ep...no? The Willow scenes I thought were reflective of the Goddess and the earth connection...the flower reference was odd there (I never did track it down; it's not a real flower Paraguayan or otherwise.)

"Xander's apartment is described as a voodoo loung and Xander goes to a lot of effort in Sleeper to open it to the light. And while Spike stays there? He is placed in what Xander calls a closet turned into a room - a cramped space (yeah it's bigger than my kitchen, and the size of my bedroom, but whatever) windowless, with a desk of building plans sitting inside it. Xander's apt btw is the only one we haven't seen demolished."

I hear you although I would still like less house and more land personally. Perhaps it's more important what a closet represents? Storage space? Skeletons in the closet? And there seem to be a lot of doubts about Xander right now...I was wondering if you had a take on the Conrad reference? And the whole GC/BC and Anya thing... a set up for later stuff?

"Then there's the frat house in Selfless - what is it with haunted or demon infested frat houses on this show? Buffy and Anya almost tear it apart in their battle. And the boys have their hearts ripped out in it."

I think it may be a personal thing on the part of Joss or the writers. And another comment on insular societies. But I'm a past sorority member so I feel somewhat honor bound to mention that this isn't the only view and well uhm the hearts being lost part might be legitimate. It's a good point SK why revisit the campus here and in particular the fraternity if not to evoke the memory of prior seasons?

"Yet - Spike does not attack any of the women victims at the Bronze or inside houses - he appears to make a point of doing it in alley ways or outside the house. Even when one of his victims invites him in - he shakes his head, the demon biting her outside. Why doesn't he go in?"

He's not Spike really here but you're right no personal connection. I've only really been able to remember the two attacks (has anyone mentioned the reference to the movie the Labyrinth in connection with the the way the scene played right before the alley?) That point is well taken the outside of the building was a public spot and he was invited. You know I'm a bit of a Campbellian so the Bronze would have been not right for me. It's a threshold spot...a place of transition, for the Hero, not right for this.

"But instead of burying them all in a graveyard, he buries them in the basement of a house - which oddly enough is made of dirt."

Again of dirt! What's with Sunnydale and the dirt basements! Earth? Whoops here we go...

"Basements. In previous seasons the ugly stuff happened in grave-yards, crypts or even a tower." (Or a bathroom)

"But not so much basements. This year the big stuff is in basements or enclosed caverns."

Just me but this is the shadow the unconscious... and a symbol and a premonition of rebirth.

"Willow is trapped ironically by her friends in an enclosed cavern in STSP with Gnarl." Where she confronted herself and was reborn?

"Spike is chained up in Buffy's basement and got his soul in a cavern. Do we have to start below to come above?" Inside to come out. In the Tarot the very first card is The Fool often portrayed exiting a cave dancing on the edge of a cliff as he begins the Journey.

"Makes me think of the Mos Escher stair metaphor mentioned in Angel. Perhaps Btvs is doing a similar one. Buffy and Spike go down stairs to see the graves in Sleeper. Spike goes upstairs in the Bronze and fights the girl on the balcony, staking her before she falls downstairs. Buffy takes Spike upstairs to live in Xander's closet and upstairs to be questioned in her bedroom. When he proves uncontrollable she brings him back downstairs."

Her shadow? Not able to be yet but interestingly she doesn't relocate him elsewhere. Angel was not in her house (self) at this point. And the discussion in the cellar seems important. For both of them. And I can't forget the remarks from the earlier posts about the pictures of the doorways on the Stairways in Buffy's house.

Contrast this to Spike of Season 4 - where he is tied up in the commonroom with everyone in the same room. In Pangs - Something Blue - we see him tied up in Giles living room.
He only decends to Xander's basement in two episodes. Leaving it in the third. And is proven harmless by the time he enters Xander's domain in Season 4. They also did a better job of tying him up in Season 4...but whatever."

I think he's not the same baby vamp. The chip was working then too. Or rather as you mentioned previously the chip was working differently.

"Now Spike is back where he started the season, in the boiler room of the school with the first evil and it is literally the three of them in that room. Buffy(aka the first evil), the vampire, and Spilliam."

I think he's going through the next stage of his journey confronting himself...it's more of a spiral than a straight line and (I guess it's just me but) I see Spike as a part of that journey for our vamp... his reconstruction of himself after failing as William... and I feel that Buffy's naming of him as Spike not William in that basement scene of her house was important not just for her but for him.

Thanks Shadowkat for another thought provoking post!
[> [> [> [> Re Giles: may be a practical decision -- KdS, 05:41:13 11/29/02 Fri

I believe from some interviews that the W/G scenes in England were shot around ASH's actual home (don't have to pay location fees?) so the lack of interior shots may be down to his desire for privacy. OK, they could have built an interior set in the US but that would have been an added complication given that they'd bothered to go to the UK.
[> [> [> [> Re: Continuing the thread on buildings -- ponygirl, 07:33:12 11/29/02 Fri

Hmm, this reminds me of the talk around Lessons, when it was discussed that in the past the Scoobies provided a challenge to institutions and authority, culminating in Graduation Day when they destroyed the structure which had contained/repressed them, the school. In season 7 we see Xander and Buffy actually becoming authority figures, but instead of creating a new structure entirely or seeking to subvert the existing ones, they seem to be repeating the past. Now that institutions are crumbling, structures are proving flimsier than intended, and a new Authority has arisen, I wonder what will be built in their place.

I have to think that there's a reason that Xander's occupation has been so emphasized this season - contrast this to last year where he rarely mentioned his job. But what is Xander building?

Jealous that you get to walk on a beach s'kat! Here it's sleeting-- is that a word? In any case it's nasty.
[> [> Re: The return of... the House Metaphor (spoilers up to 7.9) -- aliera, 10:45:26 11/28/02 Thu

Wonderful post SK...I had a big hmmm when I saw them in the basement too; but I was thinking of the scene from Normal Again which is the last episode I remember having a scene in the basement? Someone at the stakehouse mentioned that Buffy's words to Spike are very similar to Joyce's word to Buffy in NA. What struck me were two things. When our troubled vamp starts to discuss his past at first I really thought he was going to tell us some horrible secret about William not Spike. And the second was Buffy's statement of belief at the same time she calls him Spike. In season five she calls him William and again in season six, recognizing the man he was in him. Now she is recognizing what?

Other just stray thoughts there seems to me to be a dichotomy between Willow with her connection to Gaia and the earth and Xander with his connection to tools, his financial success, the reference to Heart of Darkness (the most striking heart refernce in this ep I think) and the war movies and for that matter the carpenter reference which comes along with the church, another authority figure. The high priestess and the heirophant...the empress and the emperor...sorry that's OT. The image of Buffy feeding Spike the blood...it reminded me of mother's milk is red today for some reason which reminded me that Spike's second mother was a vampire.

The scene with Spike reminded me of a cross that's a wheel (old symbol for the earth) and he was bled through three symbols which I wish had been identifed somewhere. The First comments on needing more Authority and taunts him with the view of a real vampire (which is a view of the demon inside of him?) but appears more bestial than most we've seen to date...a killing machine all hate and hunger. This is what is under the school. They are actually raising him from the basement the shadow of an institution a symbol of authority and a place of learning imprinting young people.

The other building we see is the COW where we have the disburbing biblical and poetic references just before we see the destruction of another institutional building. There's debate on whether or not this was the COW. With the references Quentin made it could go either way.

Nice post and a very happy T-day to you also.
[> Tangentially - Angel and basements -- KdS, 05:33:06 11/28/02 Thu

Since the whole thing about boys in basements is coming up again, there's some interesting basement stuff in Angel's development.

It always seemed to me (can't say for certain), that Angel's flat pre-Innocence was a basement (Angel regretting his dark part, but tragically unaware of how close it is to the surface). After his loss of soul, to Spike's surprise he moves very blatantly above ground to the open-plan Crawford Street house (his dark side no longer lurks in a basement, but walks around for everyone to see). In S3 - Buffy keeps him prisoner in Crawford Street - keeping him above ground in the (non-direct) light and when he recovers his sanity he stays living above ground.

When he first moves to LA - back in a basement again - living as the Dark Avenger cut off from humanity. Doyle recognises that this is a bad thing (predicting that his thought processes, so scarily reminiscent of Faith, will draw him back to darkness), but he doesn't come fully above ground again until his basement gets physically destroyed (in one of the biggest bangs we've ever seen in an ME show, and by one of the least humanised and most undiluted figures of darkness we've seen).

Season Two - he occupies the Hyperion, living on an upper floor until he decides to let the dark out and moves back into the basement - the perfect moment in Redefinition where he literally walks down into the sewers while his voice-over tries to rationalise and excuse his descent into darkness.

Season Three - he's still living above ground but heads into the basement to practice his fighting - the times when he unleashes his darkness on the deserving. But in Billy he makes the real metaphorical breakthrough and lets Cordy come down to practice with him - finally letting someone who cares about him see what he keeps hidden underground, and she clearly understands what's happening at some level at the end of the ep:

Cordy: I'm starting to get used to being creeped out and comforted at the same time.

Any ideas/agreements/disagreement?
[> [> Re: Tangentially - Angel and basements -- Sophist, 08:30:49 11/28/02 Thu

It always seemed to me (can't say for certain), that Angel's flat pre-Innocence was a basement

I don't think so. In Angel, Darla says to him, "You're living above ground, like one of them."
[> [> [> Thanks... -- KdS, 08:37:17 11/28/02 Thu

Was it the same flat? I don't have S1 on video but I thought the flat we saw in S2 looked different.

But I think my AtS analysis still works :-)
[> [> [> [> Re: Thanks... -- Rahael, 09:16:15 11/28/02 Thu

I think you've definitely shown how the House analogy completely works for AtS as well we BtVS! (goes with the window/frames/threshold analyses too).

I had never thought about the overground/underground thing before, but it's true, it must be significant that Angel moves from an underground basement, upstairs to a Hotel (once he purges it). Maybe the purging is part of the process of moving on.

Also, thinking of Alcibiades' postings on windows and framing, when Angel and Darla do the dirty deed, there's a window and a balcony, if my memory serves accurately.
[> [> [> [> [> It's the stairs -- Rook, 14:35:37 11/28/02 Thu

While the interior of Angel's flat in S1/S2 seemed to be above ground, there were those stairs just outside the door, and you often got the impression that people visiting Angel had just come down them, due to how cramped the hallway was. I chalk it up as much to bad set design as anything else.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Of course! That was what gave me the impression -- KdS, 05:35:51 11/29/02 Fri

[> [> Re: Tangentially of course -- aliera, 11:25:22 11/28/02 Thu

KdS : It always seemed to me (can't say for certain), that Angel's flat pre-Innocence was a basement ... In S3 - Buffy keeps him prisoner in Crawford Street - keeping him above ground in the (non-direct) light and when he recovers his sanity he stays living above ground.

I think this is quite interesting what I remember of his flat is mostly from season two which I have part of on tape. He is above ground and reaching for something better that his unlife yet the flat is very minimalist (Ben is watching "Crouching Tiger" right now but I'll try to pull the tape out later) I want to say Japanese and that he was perhaps studying more of that culture than interior design or perhaps that's exactly what it was his own interior design. And although it's above ground where the humans prefer to live it's quite cavelike (JMO) which is also a symbol of rebirth. The shots I remember are also tight in or the figures seem large compared to the rooms the sides of the frame reinforcing this feeling of closeness. I quite agree with your take on S3 (it's funny I just got a visual of the chains and then a melding to Spike chains in the basement) but I wonder if that also means that Buffy was keeping him separate from the inner her (if we go with the basement idea) that she had mentally separated him from herself and she was continuing this. And that her chaining of the beast he was at that time that she also nutured is a refernce to her demons. Sorry got OT again. Buffy's my nexus.

KdS: When he first moves to LA - back in a basement again - living as the Dark Avenger cut off from humanity. Doyle recognises that this is a bad thing (predicting that his thought processes, so scarily reminiscent of Faith, will draw him back to darkness), but he doesn't come fully above ground again until his basement gets physically destroyed (in one of the biggest bangs we've ever seen in an ME show, and by one of the least humanised and most undiluted figures of darkness we've seen).

I think it's really intriguing that he put himself in the basement after being (relatively) living in the light in the upper consciousness. He had just experienced a minideath (and rebirth)and then seen his beast come out in nearly (but not quite) draining Buffy. Then he assisted as a warrior in the destruction of the school (authority/institution) and the Mayor (again authority this time father figure a personal demon for Angel as we find out). Then a return to the Mother? basement cave/subsconscious to heal perhaps or as a step back. Doyle was the Whistler here so what he said would have been important...I can't help too much with the imagery, my strongest house image relates to Cordy's haunted apt. It would seem that the strength of the destruction and the animalistic visage of the demon would have been in proportion to the walls Angel was building the grave he was building? and the strength of the his shadow/inner demon?

Season Two - he occupies the Hyperion, living on an upper floor until he decides to let the dark out and moves back into the basement - the perfect moment in Redefinition where he literally walks down into the sewers while his voice-over tries to rationalise and excuse his descent into darkness.

According to Hesiod, Hyperion was the son of two important divine beings. These powerful gods were called Gaia and Ouranos, and they represented the Earth (Gaia) and the Sky (Ouranos).

"Theia yielded to Hyperion's love and gave birth
to great Helios and bright Selene and Eos,
who brings light to all the mortals of this earth
and to the immortal gods who rule the wide sky."

In Greek mythology, Helios was the god of the Sun, Eos the goddess of Dawn, and Selene the goddess of the Moon. So these children of Hyperion each represent light. It is also worth noting that Hyperion is sometimes conflated with his son - the Sun - Helios in myth and literature. (from www.loggia.com)

See...not tangential at all on your part.

The sewers: A cave again but of a different sort. The sewers are where he meets with Whistler the threshold figure in Buffy who offers him the challenge to begin the journey...they are also a place of the Wasteland but also a place of running water and water is again a symbol of transformation death and rebirth. These waters are underground and his birth as a vampire is underground and also the underground is the place of the subsconscious of death and Angel's true challenge (as is Buffys as is all of ours) is of course with himself.

KdS: Season Three - he's still living above ground but heads into the basement to practice his fighting - the times when he unleashes his darkness on the deserving. But in Billy he makes the real metaphorical breakthrough and lets Cordy come down to practice with him - finally letting someone who cares about him see what he keeps hidden underground

What crosses my mind when I read your words is that he's travelling back and forth between the two (a real step forward for him) acting as his own mediator between the different parts of his mind soul, he still has far to go because because he has segmented divided what these spaces are for...you are right on with Cordy and he's also enabling her to transform. So like the relationship with Buffy this is on several levels.

Nice post!
Never Leave Me - Comments, Quibbles, Spoilers -- Darby, 09:23:50 11/27/02 Wed

It's episodes like this that make me feel that the story - the main story, the Big Honkin' Big Bad Story, is unfolding at a snail's pace. It's probably just me - acck, I'm becoming acclimated to the "give it to me now!" atmosphere of current pop culture! - but I don't remember the storylines with Spike / Angelus, or Faith / Mayor, or the Initiative, or Dawn / Glory dragging quite this much, although parts of last season did. Maybe Joss' substitute crew keeps on task a little too well - he's not afraid to take some major detours to both fog the direction of the arc and give us some rousing second-act fun. This season, from the first episode, it's been "Look! Up there! It's the shoe! The shoe is dropping! Ummm, the shoe is dropping really slowly...that can't be the real shoe, it's too big and obvious...still dropping...and, erm, here it is, the shoe we've been watching all along, what a *yawn* marvelous shoe it is..." Anyway...

I liked the character interactions. Buffy and Spike had a Fool for Love flavor that has been largely missing, updated with a bit more maturity. This is a cracked mirror to the Angel-FE plotline of Amends - whatever the FE thought Spike would be good for (and it pretty obviously isn't killing Buffy), he's being as uncooperative as Angel was. Also, the FE minions must've been working out and taking martial arts classes - these are way more battly than the stand-in-a-circle-and-hum guys we saw in Amends. Maybe Willow can google out where they bulk- ordered their cutlery from...

It's hard to believe that Xander and Anya aren't moving back toward couplehood again, and that's a good thing - they are much more interesting together than apart.

Gotta echo cjl (I'd have commented in that thread, but I have vowels in my name) in that Xander is showing character traits that we haven't been shown in development, and that's a bit troubling. Me, being me, is as quick to blame inconsistent writing (and lack of screen time) as some underlying Sleeper status, although my inner conspiracy theorist is piqued.

I felt that Willow's resistance to the Dark Side was clearer (though quick) here, to the point that she almost got killed, and Dawn sat quietly and kicked butt in a fine, professional manner.

No Giles - I predict that this allows us to see Giles after he arrives in Sunnydale, with some semi-semi explanation for how he escaped death, so that we can't be sure if this is really Giles or a First Evil similacrum. And we won't know, a la Dawn's introduction, for an episode or two.

Can't decide if letting us see the FE minion faces during the battle, and not holding off until Buffy makes her revelation, was a good choice. It allowed we obsessive types to confirm our suspicions before the revelation, but it also compromised the revelation.

Interesting that having Andrew, who gives voice to every odd sensation, to be the one to "touch" the BB. He, of course, made no mention of any sensation at all, confirming that the BB is totally in their heads, snuggled in there with Spike's chip.

I'm trusting that Robin Wood's nighttime escapade is laying groundwork for some surprising revelation, something that has been in short supply so far (okay, Spike killing would have been one, but it wasn't really Spike).

Quibble time!

Watchers Council becoming aware that maybe all of their Slayers are dead. Quentin on phone with perhaps the only one left. Quentin knows somewhat what's going on, and is planning on travelling to Sunnydale (Note: now it's the Hellmouth - guess there is only the one, or maybe it's the only one they're interested in). Quentin is a pompous prig, but he's not stupid - why wouldn't he tell Buffy what's going on? We know that she was about to be attacked, sort of, so it could have been a big-time critical mistake.

BB minions (or so we assume) invade Summers House, attack everybody with blunt sticks but have nasty pointy knives when needed. And am I the only one distracted by a basement whose only access is through the kitchen until suddenly there's an external door? And once through that, why invade the house? Willow, maybe not wanting to revisit her tiny trip to the Dark Side from fighting spider demons, goes down fast. We know, it seems, that the BB wants Willow in the deceased column - why not kill her now? And why wait to go after Dawn homicidally until after everything is breaking down? And, tangentially, why visit that British flat with an axe (although, Watcher flat, the axe could have been lying around, I guess)?

So, okay, we've got the Uber-Vamp (seems kind of a blunder to call it that in the credits, kind of deflating the cliffhanger), so maybe I'm being completely premature and things are about to get Very Interesting Indeed. I just hope he's got way more personality than our introduction would suggest.

- Darby, who had to fit a pesky class into the middle of writing this.
[> Re: Never Leave Me - Comments, Quibbles, Spoilers - - CW, 12:33:15 11/27/02 Wed

Actually, I have the opposite feeling about this season. In season for with Adam and last year I was a lot more impatient for something to happen. With Adam the Scoobies kept saying they had to do something about him, but then forgot about it till the next week. Meanwhile Adam barely did enough damage in the Sunnydale Community to be an exciting monster-of-the-week. Last year we quickly discovered Buffy's depression and obsession with Spike, and Willow's problems with magic, then those two very important themes went nowhere in particular for a good six or seven episodes. At least this year I get the feeling that what the Big Bad is doing is constantly escalating.

Re Quinton Travers: The guy was always overimpressed with the watchers' role in what the Slayers accomplished. I think it's in-character for him to withhold everything from Buffy until he thought it was the right time. Unfortunately, it seems his time has run out. You and I would hope we wouldn't act that way, but I think Travers would do it out of habit.

The munchkin attack seemed a little strange to me, too. They've been homocidal everytime we've seen them. We could have used a line of explanation after the fight that they came in with blunt weapons to get Spike safely out. Then when that was done, they switched to their usual murderous ways. At least that would make sense.
[> [> Re: Never Leave Me - Comments, Quibbles, Spoilers - - LittleBit, 12:50:34 11/27/02 Wed

I agree about Quentin and why he didn't tell Buffy what he knew over the phone. One of the shortcomings of the Watchers' Council, in my opinion, is that its members are too slow in adapting to new situations. The WC has always viewed the Slayer as a tool, not as an equal, or even a colleague. I'm sure that in Quentin's mind it would be quite soon enough to tell Buffy what they knew when they all arrived, en masse, in Sunnydale. That way he could attempt to gauge what he told her from her reactions and also possibly control her response to his revelations.

Unfortunately, he made two critical mistakes. The first was in underestimating Buffy. The second was in overestimating the Watchers' Council itself.
[> [> [> Also, the Council seems to act slowly most of the time. -- Finn Mac Cool, 13:33:15 11/27/02 Wed

It took a bit for Wesley to arrive to replace Giles, and they never did inform them about Faith or Kendra until it seemed important. And, after Buffy fired them, it took the Council till "Checkpoint" to try to pull her back. In general, I think the Council rarely moves as though the world were in immediate danger. They've done this so many times for so many centuries that they help with the evil fighting at a leisurely pace.
[> [> [> [> Re: Also, the Council seems to act slowly most of the time. -- Tyreseus, 20:04:14 11/27/02 Wed

I have to agree that, unfortunately, the CoW has been marvelously bad at dealing with situations. But remember how fast they acted to capture Faith (or Buffy in Faith's body) when she came out of the coma?

My character analysis of Quentin is that he measures every word he has ever spoken. As the apparent leader of the Watchers, he knows that every word he speaks will be of some great importance to his underlings. He probably didn't reveal what he knew to Buffy because he didn't have his speech prepared - along with quotes from the Bible, Victorian poetry and an extended soliloquy from one of Shakespeare's oft-ignored history plays. The man was practically hubris personified.

I really hope we haven't seen the last of Quentin. How great would it be to see Quentin begging forgiveness from Buffy and Giles for his arrogance?

If only one person survives the explosion, I hope it's him. If not, the briefly introduced Lydia would be interesting, too. And presumably, the entire counsil of watchers was not gathered in that building, just the primary leadership and their support staff. If Quentin is dead, will he become a martyr to the fractured remnants of the CoW?
[> [> [> [> [> Point Taken -- Finn Mac Cool, 20:43:22 11/27/02 Wed

But I think the response to Faith waking up relates to the whole difference between Labor and Management in the Watchers' Council. Giles, Wesley, Gwendolyn Post, and the Watchers' Council wetworks team all seemed very capable and reacted quickly to situations. Meanwhile, the upper Council members seem ineffectual and take their good time in doing things.

Your theory about Quentin does hold up, since he waited for total confirmation before saying the First Evil was attacking them.

Lastly, while all of the Watchers weren't in that building, they mentioned reports of attacks on Council members all across the world, so saying they're almost totally wiped out isn't going too far.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Don't see your point -- KdS, 04:52:55 11/28/02 Thu

Wesley was a disaster area when he first turned up in Sunnydale - took some exposure to Buffy, Giles and Angel to get him to trust his instincts and discover his inner warrior instead of trying to be an ersatz Quentin.

The wetworks team were complete idiots - spent their whole time acting like braindead goons instead of serious assassins. Forget launching a frontal attack on the Hyperion - wait till Angel takes Faith out in his convertible car and do a Lee Harvey Oswald.

Gwendolyn Post was very effective, but she was evil and hence not a fair representative.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Don't see your point -- Finn Mac Cool, 08:36:48 11/28/02 Thu

It was revealed when Wesley moved to a different show that, while he was well-skilled, he acted like a bumbling doofus because he was nervous and uncomfortable around others.

As for the wetworks team, I can't say anything about what happened in LA since I haven't seen that episode. However, they didn't seem to act stupidly in Who Are You? And, the reason they didn't act like serious assassins is that, at the moment, their orders were to bring Faith back alive, not kill her, so they technically weren't on an assassination mission.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Wesley and the wetworks mob... -- KdS, 10:36:24 11/28/02 Thu

In other words, Wesley was utterly unskilled for the manegerial role he'd been assigned.

And if you do see Sanctuary you'll see that once Collins and his crew get to LA they seem to be out to kill Faith (changed orders?) and rather than developing a decent plan they just try to shoot everyone in sight.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Wesley and the wetworks mob... -- Slain, 13:08:38 11/28/02 Thu

rather than developing a decent plan they just try to shoot everyone in sight.

Perhaps they'd been unduly influenced by America? ;)

I think the Watcher's Council are pretty useless; they may have appeared to act quickly when Faith woke up, but remember they'd had the opperation planned for months. If Faith had suddenly appeared, no doubt they'd have floundered around.

Wesley has clearly proved himself more capable than Angel at managing Angel Investigations; but that's because, like Giles, he's strayed from the Watcher's Council, and become more flexible. Both Wesley and Giles started off with a certain degree of bumbling, if only in their personal relationships.
[> [> Re: Never Leave Me - Comments, Quibbles, Spoilers - - VR, 13:16:25 11/27/02 Wed

The First said that he was gonna drain Andrew, but ended up with Spike instead. Maybe they came in with blunt weapons because they didn't know exactly where in the house Spike was and the FE didn't wanna risk loosing his blood. So, he gave them orders to not go in with them drawn first. "If it isn't Spike you come across, then, you can use sharp things."
[> [> [> Or they just ran out of knives and axes for everyone. -- Finn Mac Cool, 13:35:24 11/27/02 Wed

Just because it's the First Evil doesn't mean it has an unlimited expense account.
[> [> Regarding the Bringers and deadly weapons-- -- HonorH, 09:27:29 11/28/02 Thu

The munchkin attack seemed a little strange to me, too. They've been homocidal everytime we've seen them. We could have used a line of explanation after the fight that they came in with blunt weapons to get Spike safely out. Then when that was done, they switched to their usual murderous ways. At least that would make sense.

Remember, the First Evil isn't into easy death. It doesn't want to just stab 'n' go with the Scoobs; it wants to make them suffer. Which is, incidentally, seriously violating one of the primary Evil Overlord Rules.

Note that though they attacked primarily with staffs, they did have knives. Two drew knives while upstairs with Buffy and Andrew, and one just about stabbed Dawn. Now, why he was so intent on killing Dawn when the rest were left alive is up for debate.
[> [> [> As for the sticks... -- grifter, 17:19:26 11/28/02 Thu

Did you see what Buffy did two the knife-wielding guys? She stabbed them with their own knifes! That´s what you get when you bring sharp things into a fight with the woman who´s chosen to stab demons with sharp things! You get stabbed!
[> Sir, you sting me with your quibbles! -- Slain, 17:09:46 11/27/02 Wed

Really I'm not one for quibbling, but I do like to read the quibbles of others; I consider myself a quibble-buster, Mister.

I think the Watcher's Council is meant to resemble the majority of old British intitutions; by Civil Service standards, Quentin standing up and saying that they must do something is practically radical. In an American TV show it's somewhat contrast-y, but I think for the Watcher's Council to actually do the obvious thing would be very incongrous for me; it's not in their nature to load up on axes and go get 'em. First several committees have to sign forms to request the axes, in triplicate, and expense forms must be filled in to cover the cost of flights - and let's not forget health insurance. A Monty Python sketch makes a better comparison than anything else for the Council.

As for the apparent slowness of the arcs, in the past (Seasons 1-5) the plot generally hasn't picked up pace until the second half of the season, and has then rocketed along. Season 6 moved very slowly for me, and I think the writers have tried to rectify this by giving us something to tune in to next week; hence the way that the story is split up into small chunks and spread across the season (rather like feeding my baby cousin, providing you substitute the word 'season' for 'kitchen'). I personally had trouble working up much enthusiasm for next week's Buffy during last season, so I prefer this narrative method. It'll take me at least until the next episode to forgive them for not revealing what happened to Giles, but I'm sufficiently sure he's not dead for it not to bother me as much as it might.
[> Thoughts on quibbles with the quibbles being spoilery for 7.9 -- matching mole, 19:13:20 11/27/02 Wed

Interesting difference in perception here as I had been thinking just a couple of hours before you posted this that the season seemed to be rocketing along. I was worrying about how they would extend the story through the rest of the season given how far along they seem to have come (always assuming, of course, that this hasn't been a gigantic exercise in misdirection). The real difference, now that I think about it, is not so much time as in the presentation of the big bad/season level plot. Usually it sort of starts up all of sudden and unexpectedly with relatively little or very subtle foreshadowing (Snyder's call to the Mayor at the end of S2, Dawn's mysterious appearance at the start of S5). Here the foreshadowing has been explicit and heavy duty. I kind of like it.

The actions of the FE and its minions make absolutely no sense unless you assume that going for the pain is a general principle. It is going to kill people (or vampires) when a particular purpose would be served by killing them. Otherwise it would rather mess with their heads and get them to do things. Maybe when it was attempting to manipulate Willow the end goal was not so much Willow's death (a side effect) as to cause Willow to commit suicide (i.e. the act was the goal not the consequence).

How this would fit into the all about power rather than good and evil idea I don't know.

So maybe the minions use knives when they are out to kill someone for a greater purpose (like silencing Andrew). They were deliberately avoiding killing the Scoobies (except Dawn, interestingly) because the FE would rather manipulate them perhaps?

Otherwise the FE minions should have slaughtered the Scoobies one by one before now.

I think that both Xander and Willow have made rather uneasy transitions from S6 to S7 and the writers/actors seem less able to portray them convincingly as compared to the other characters.

My (very minor) quibbles. Didn't the wall of the Summers house seem awfully flimsy? It looks like a pretty solidly constructed older home and it would take quite a few swings with sledgehammer to knock that big a hole in it. I know vampires are strong but that seemed excessive. And given that the hole was there why didn't Xander and Anya follow Spike and Andrew through it rather than running out into the hallway and through the door?
[> [> You caught it, too! -- HonorH, 23:32:52 11/27/02 Wed

Re-watching this ep confirmed it: only Dawn and Andrew were attacked with knives. The Bringers were content to knock Willow, Xander, Anya, and Buffy around with staffs (until Buffy attacked them while they were holding their knives), but Dawn just about got the stab. The purpose of killing Andrew is obvious: he has important information, and he's squealing like the little Babe look-alike. But Dawn? Hmm . . .
[> [> Re: Thoughts on quibbles with the quibbles being spoilery for 7.9 -- Slain, 12:27:00 11/28/02 Thu

I don't know - perhaps originally the rooms were larger, but were subdivided by a fairly flimsy partition to make more bedrooms. After all, how many bedrooms are there in the Summers house? Didn't there just use to be two? Maybe when the monks made Dawn, they added another room for her - but with terribly shoddy workmanship. Never get a monk to do any building work for you, that's what I always say.
[> Re: Never Leave Me - Comments, Quibbles, Spoilers - - Corwin of Amber, 19:58:04 11/27/02 Wed

>It's episodes like this that make me feel that the story - the main story, the Big Honkin' Big Bad Story, is unfolding at a snail's pace. It's probably just me - acck, I'm becoming acclimated to the "give it to me now!" atmosphere of current pop culture!

Heh. You would hate Babylon 5, then - it took that shows main arc 3 1/2 years to resolve, and there were a lot of other arcs to tie up afterwards. As far as Buffy goes, It seems to me that this season is moving along VERY quickly. We were introduced to the Big Bad in the very first episode. I'm wondering if we'll get another comedy episode at all this season, because it would kind of break the tone.
[> [> Re: Never Leave Me - Comments, Quibbles, Spoilers - - Rook, 20:12:53 11/27/02 Wed

Just for comaprison, here's where the BB first appeared in previous seasons:

S1: Episode 1

S2: Spike Dru in Ep 3/Angelus in Ep 14

S3: Episode 5

S4: The Initiative in Ep 1/Adam in Episode 14

S5: Episode 5

S6: Troika in Ep 3/Dark!Willow in Ep 20

So, from my P.O.V., this season's moving along pretty quickly, seeing as how we've had multiple appearances from the BB in just 9 episodes.
[> [> Re: Never Leave Me - Comments, Quibbles, Spoilers - - Tyreseus, 20:19:38 11/27/02 Wed

You know, I'm not ready to believe that the first evil is the only "big bad" for the season. It wouldn't be the first time ME has played the switcheroo on us. This season's "end of season big bad" could end up being something entirely different.

Loved the falling shoe metaphor, though, and somewhat agree. We're 9 episodes in before Buffy tells Willow and Dawn to start researching to determine what we're dealing with? C'mon. After Willow's encounter with Cassie in the library, don't you think she would have started running "devours you and morphing dead" into Google?
[> [> PT Babylon Five -- Darby, 12:30:03 11/28/02 Thu

I really liked Babylon 5, but that was constructed differently - the individual episodes were hardly constrained (until close to the end) by the unfolding overall story - we were slowly given clues rather than being driven very slowly toward some sort of goal, it's a different "feel." I'd give S4 (and S5) a similar tone - not that much directly served Adam as BB, but mostly examined college and the Initiative in and of themselves.

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