November 2002
posts
Angel and the Wizard of Oz -- Kay, 20:55:09
11/24/02 Sun
I've been watching the Wizard of Oz and it reminded me of
something that Gunn said in Spin the Bottle about Wesley
being the brain and Cordy having the champion heart. And I
think that the analogy works. In the movie each character
goes to the Wizard looking for something they at first don't
appear to have but as the movie and their journey progresses
both they and the audience realise they already have what
they are looking for. The Scarecrow is the smartest of the
lot, the Tinman the most sensitive, the Lion (who is alive
and has the most to lose in both pain and death) is
couragous (Courage is not acting because of a lack of fear
but in spite of fear.) and Dorothy wants to go home.
Extending the analogy to the characters on Angel, Wesley
first appeared as a pompous, clumsy, cowdarly, inferior
version of Giles. But when you added a bit of confidence and
friendship we find that he does have a pretty good head on
his shoulders, both for planning and observation.
Cordy was the biggest bitch in Sunnydale history. Buffy even
asked Xander if Cordy would know what the heart shaped
pendant he was planning on giving her represented. (BBB) But
after being taken in and feeling all the pain of the world,
we found that hidden under her designer clothes was a good
and caring heart.
Gunn is the Lion, wait....hear me out. Gunn first appears as
a ball of street bravado, and feeling and fighting like he
has nothing to lose, even his own soul is not worth much to
him. As his sister said he courts death and lives only for
the fight not the mission. That isn't courage. Soon he gains
friends and family and a mission and a girl, he wants to
live but fights and protects them even though he is human
and more vulnerable than the others. He is the muscle but
not the the thug sense but a knight, showing more chivarly,
loyality and bravery than the rest. And they both crack some
of the best one-liners.
Last but not least, is Angel as Dorothy. Angel more than
anything wants a home; wants to be part of a world in which
he belongs; wants a family; wants the kind of connection
that he had with Buffy and lost. LA can be seen as his Oz or
you could say that while he wasn't physically taken out of
his world, he was changed and his past prevents him from
feeling like a part of it. But much of it is his own
feelings of guilt and isolation. Like Dorothy he has the
power to go home and/or make those kind of connections with
people but doesn't believe it.
Now for the rest of the characters, some fit pretty easily.
Lilia is obviously the Wicked Witch of the West. Some not
so. Fred? Toto? Nah. Lorne is the Wizard, maybe? They both
are pretty theactrical. I would love to heard anyone's
observations or ideas.
[> I was struck by how much.. -- Masq, 06:39:12
11/25/02 Mon
The trip to Oz reminded me of the Pylea arc. Not necessarily
because of what events happen there, but because of the
medieval buildings, the strange creatures they encounter,
the whole aura of this fantastical world "over the
rainbow".
I think the creation of Pylea was based somewhat loosely on
Oz, or at least, the writers were thinking of it, which is
part of the reason Lorne breaks out into "Somehwere over the
rainbow" at the end of the ep.
[> [> Re: I was struck by how much.. --
ponygirl, 08:11:43 11/25/02 Mon
What I really noticed on this trip to Oz is the lesson at
the end where the characters discover they have always
possessed the qualities they sought. But they don't have any
faith in this until they receive some sort of outside
validation. Thus the Scarecrow gets his degree, the Lion his
medal, and the Tinman his (what did he get again?), a label
to prove to themselves what the audience already seen in
them. It reminded me of names and goals that get tossed
around AtS: champion, Shanshu, redemption; external
definitions for what may be internal conditions.
And man, those flying monkeys are scary!
The Gods are in the Details - Thoughts on *Sleeper* Pt. I
- ( ***Spoilers for 7.8*** & Teaser ) -- OnM,
21:25:10 11/24/02 Sun
*Fast Forward to the End*
It’s starting to become obvious that we are in the midst of
at least a serial mini-arc, relating to the visible
emergence of what is, if not the season’s final Big Bad, a
pretty serious one nonetheless. Beyond that,
some previous questions that were presented get answered,
just as other newer ones rise to take their
place. The ending of this ep is a real shocker, and once
again proffers a cliffhanger for the next show’s
beginning, but more on that in due time.
The title of this episode, Sleeper, conjures up a
number of references in my mind, but for me,
nothing seems to fit the general direction of the show so
far this season than the meaning(s) implied in
Frank Herbert’s series of Dune novels.
Way back when I first read these stories, and later on when
David Lynch made his film version of the first
novel, one of the only partially answered great questions of
the mythology was just who or
what, exactly, was ‘The Sleeper’? Most Dune
readers tend to assume Paul Atredes was The
Sleeper, who ‘awoke’ into maturity as the Kwisatz Haderach,
a ‘super-being’ that would lead a corrupt
and de-spiritualized cosmos back to a more righeous state of
existence. Paul proves his ‘divinity’ in a
variety of ways, but one of the most striking is that he
apparently causes it to rain on Arrakis, a desert
planet where it literally never rains.
But is Paul the god himself, or is he merely the
‘instrument’ of the divine (as for example in Christian
mythology where Jesus is the revealing instrument of the
Heavenly Father, not necessarily God himself), or
possibly both at once? It is very possible to argue that
Paul is not ‘The Sleeper’, but that what is truly
‘sleeping’ is the higher knowledge/awareness of just who is
ultimately responsible for creating and/or
balancing the universe. In either case, the journey’s events
unfold as by either choice or fate, Paul taps into
this conduit of enlightenment.
A very apt comparison of this scenario can be made to
Amends, by asking just who or what,
exactly, made it snow? Did Buffy do this somehow, without
knowing it? Was she the instrument of the
Jossian ‘Powers That Be’, who cast forth this miracle to
prove... what? That Angel was wrong to abandon
his desire to do good, to give in to despair and seek the
end of his unlife? That Buffy was ultimately right
to do what she did, looking after him after Angel returned
from the hell dimension, even hiding his
presence from her friends? She was certainly unsure then
whether or not she had done the right thing, but
events afterward appeared to have confirmed that her
decision was correct-- if she had informed them of
his return early on, it is very possible that Angel would
have been dusted before the events of
Amends..
Move forward now to BtVS season 7, and we are being given
quite a few strong hints that Buffy’s
previous lack of confidence in her actions is greatly
diminishing. What I am coming to really appreciate is
just how subtle these changes in Buffy and the rest of the
Scooby Gang are being portrayed as this year
progresses.
In the pre-opening-credits moments of the show, we see what
is essentially a direct continuation of the end
of last weeks ep, Conversations with Dead People. We
are inside Xander’s apartment, and there is
a loud knocking at the door. (The sleeping) Xander awakes to
find Buffy at the door, and he asks if there is
something wrong, to which Buffy says replies that she's
needs to know where Spike is. Xander tells her
that he doesn’t know, other than that he is out, probably
‘creaturing’. Buffy moves over to the window,
and again we get to see the horizontal bands of light and
dark from he window blinds frame her face in a
metaphorical mixture of fear/purpose.
We cut to a scene in the basement of some place or another,
where Spike is humming a
folkie/archaic-sounding tune of some kind while digging what
appears to be a grave in the dirt floor. The
young woman that he was seen attacking in CwDP is
there also, apparently very dead. In a display
of casual, brutal indifference that mirrors the cold
realverse ugliness of the Nazis dumping dead Jews into
mass graves, Spike picks up the woman’s body and drops it
into the grave, resuming his humming as he
happily shovels dirt to cover her over. Is this really
Spike? The First Evil doesn’t seem to have the ability
to
engage in actual physical activity of this sort, so it can’t
be an FE manifestation like Cassie Newton was or
Joyce may have been. Has the First somehow completely
disabled the chip? Or is DemonSpike doing this
on his own? We cut to the opening credits.
*Play Back to the Beginning*
The first two episodes of season 7 opened with shots of a
young woman being chased by mysterious robed
figures, who in each case end up killing her. Many fans,
myself included, came to presume that these
women were some kind of proto-slayer, possibly with Watchers
overseeing their training, waiting for a
‘call’. Now after the passage of 5 eps without seeing a
similar occurrence, we rejoin this particular plot
line.
There is a brief shot of a street, identified as ‘London,
England’, and a man enters a room where he finds
first the signs of a fight and then a woman lying dead on
the floor. Shortly therafter, a robed figure attacks
the man with a knife, just like the ones used to kill the
two proto-slayers in eps 1 & 2. He momentarily
blocks the attack, but a second figure stabs him, presumably
killing him.
This is the point where pretty much any other show would
have already made it plainly clear what is
happening, usually by someone directly stating that the
women who were attacked were potential slayers,
and that they had Watchers looking after them. Bringing the
scene back home to England neatly confirms
that the rising of the Big Bad is taking place, since this
is where the main Watcher’s Council is located, but
still doesn’t overtly state the fact. ME presumes that its
regular viewers have already figured out what is
going on, and so doesn’t belabor the obvious.
I may stand corrected on this, but I think that the flowers
that were lying on the floor were tiger lilies, and
if so this seems very appropriate metaphorically. The
depiction of the tipped-over table, the scattered
books, the smashed crystal of the vase, and the tiger lilies
lying prone on the floor acts to sum up the entire
slayer/ watcher/ calling/ learning/ fighting/ death/ destiny
of most Slayers in a single stunning image, and a
sadly haunting one at that.
*Not Always But Often*
We jump cut to Willow as she rushes in the Summer's front
door, calling for Buffy. Dawn is still in the
living room where she fought the ‘beast’ and spoke to her
mother, or what appeared to be her mother.
Willow is stunned by the damage done to the room, and fears
that Dawn has been hurt, but quiets some
when she realizes that Dawn id mostly just badly shaken and
exhausted.
Now there appears another instance of the subtlety and lack
of convention I alluded to before. In most
other strories of this kind-- in fact, even several times
before in the history of BtVS-- we would embark on
a series of misadventures instigated by the failure of one
or more characters to communicate clearly.
Indeed, I recall reading a number of posts whereby other
boarders speculated that Dawn would withhold
the information regarding her mother’s ‘visitation’ for fear
of (fill in the conventional blank). Or, that
Willow would inform Dawn of her own meetup with the BB, but
that Dawn would not believe or accept
that Joyce’s manifestation and/or her words could be a
lie.
But lo and behold, the two communicate quite directly, and
while Dawn seems partly skeptical, neither
does she offhandedly dismiss the possibility that she has
been tricked. I think that this is another example
where the FE has underestimated the psyche of its intended
victim. From the FE’s perspective, this had to
be an excellent plan-- first, have a manifestation
physically batter and terrify Dawn, and if that doesn’t
stop
her, use the mother-vision ploy to psychologically plant the
seeds of doubt and fear of abandonment in her
mind. But did it work? The evidence over the course of this
ep suggests otherwise.
*CSI-Sunnydale, Pt I*
Back now to Xander’s place, where he is discussing the Spike
dilemma with Buffy. Xander makes the quip
about examining the situation in ‘a cool, CSI-like’
manner, referring to the detached, scientific,
generally logical means used to catch the perps on the TV
show bearing that name. He wonders-- very
logically-- if Spike could have indeed managed to defeat his
chip and so kill and sire Holden. Buffy doesn't
think so, pointing out that she has seen it actively working
when Spike has attempted harm to humans.
Xander replies that the chip didn't stop him from hurting
Buffy, so how can they be sure? The chip may
have stopped functioning, and Spike could have been faking
it since then. Buffy mirrors Dawn’s misgivings
as to what is real and what isn’t-- she’s convinced that
Spike ‘is different now’, and that he couldn’t do
such a thing, just as Dawn thinks the violent monster she
cast out was the BB, and that her mother was
‘real’. She is torn between what she feels instinctively,
and what the logic of the situation depicts.
Unlike most previous times, she doesn’t dismiss the
‘logic’, just weighs it in the overall balance of
evidence. For someone whose ‘calling’ is to prosecute
the presumed guilty, Buffy seems intent on
presuming Spike is innocent until proven otherwise. She
thinks that if he is acting, then he is acting on an
Oscar-worthy level, which BTW seems to me like a little meta-
narration re: the show, Marsters, and other
failures to get proper respect from one’s industry
peers.
*Better Get ‘im Before ‘e Lawyers Up*
Right after the ‘acting’ comment, Spike through the front
door, disrupting the conversation. Buffy and
Xander are unsure what to say at first, and Spike notices
the awkwardness, but assumes it’s something that
should be none of his business. His behavior is now
completely 180 to the earlier scene in the unknown
basement, where he was chillingly evil and seemingly proud
of it. Spike heads off to his room, looking to
get some sleep, but Buffy stops him, trying to act ‘casual’
as she probe for info. Buffy reveals the story
about Holden, deliberately dropping the name to see if Spike
reacts knowingly. He doesn’t, and even acts
sympathetic that Buffy had to kill a former friend of hers.
After the door to the bedroom closes, Xander
goes over to Buffy and notes how calm and cool Spike acted
when Buffy mentioned ‘Webs’.
Now, I didn’t pay to much attention to this the first time
throught he ep, but on subsequent viewings it
occurred to me that Buffy wondered if Holden didn’t really
exist, that he was ‘real’ only because the BB
had planted the suggestion in her mind. But note that Xander
refers to Holden as ‘Webs’, his school
nickname, not ‘Holden’ or “Webster’. He does in in a voice
that suggests he used the nick often or
regularly, at least back then. If I’m not putting too much
faith in this spin, it would at least tend to confirm
that Webs was real, not something that Buffy was made to
accept as real when it wasn’t. Adding to this
Buffy’s declaration that the vamp ‘dusted like he was real’,
and it still leaves Buffy’s CwDP
adventure as the most ambiguous of the four.
(Willow’s was confirmed to be BB-related last week, and this
week confirms Spike’s tie-in. Dawn’s is
maybe 50-50, but Buffy’s is still very much anyone’s guess
at this point. I love the way they are drawing
this out slowly, using elements of traditional long-form
suspense writing to build tension over time, not
give everything away all at once in some tidy, neat, boring
package.)
Buffy decides to go, saying she needs to check up on Dawn.
She asks Xander if he'll keep an eye on Spike
for the rest of the day, but he declines, saying he's got an
important client meeting (for the construction
company) in a few hours. Buffy insists that Spike can’t
leave the house until they find out if he's killing
again.
*One Bitten, Twice Shy*
It’s obviously several hours later, and we see Xander
opening the blinds in order to flood the room with
sunlight. (It just occurs to me-- aren’t the blinds a door
of sorts? Open, closed, partly open-- letting in the
light, closing it out, sometimes in between, sometimes both
at once? You can look out through them to the
outside world, or vice-versa, or block the world from view.
Hummm...)
Anya is there in the apartment with him, and she’s not too
happy at being given Spike-sitting duty. She
argues with Xander that she could be in danger from Spike,
if he’s killing again, but Xander says they don’t
know for sure if it’s true. Anya reluctantly agrees to stay,
but wants Xander to leave her some kind of
defensive weapon like a crossbow or a flamethrower. Xander
says Spike can’t become suspicious about the
plan to follow him, and tells her if he should go out, not
to confront him, just call Buffy. He smiles and
assures Anya that ‘you’ll be fine’.
This leads to a very funny moment when Anya claims “If I get
vamped, I’ll come back and bite your ass!”
“Wouldn't be the first time”, Xander replies, still smiling,
as he shuts the door behind him. Seperated or
not, these two are still very connected to one another.
Anya’s traditional perkiness is a good bit more muted in
this ep. EC’s makeup and hairstyle while she is
Spike-sitting makes her appear almost a little bedraggled,
and certainly more ordinary-human-looking, less
glamorous. I can see why she wouldn’t be too thrilled at
being captive with a possibly murderous Spike,
but on the other hand she also realizes that she isn’t in
much of a position to avoid helping Xander, who
campaigned to save her life even after she had returned to
demonhood and killing people. Even Buffy has
made it clear that Anya is a member of the ‘family’ again
after renouncing vengeance demonhood, and
family members have responsibilities.
*Lie to Me*
Back to the Summers’ house, and a panicky Buffy as Willow
tries to calms her down, telling Buffy that
Dawn is mostly unharmed, just badly shaken up. Buffy wants
to know what happened, and Willow
describes both her own ordeal and Dawn’s, the latter based
on what Dawn told her. Willow tries to
emphasize how the BB really seems to be aware of almost
everything that makes the Scoobies tick, and
also how utterly convincing the ‘messages’ it gave were at
the time.
Buffy then tells Willow about Holden and the reputed Spike-
sirage. Willow becomes confused, assuming
like Buffy did that the chip would unconditionally prevent
such a thing. Buffy confesses that she really
doesn’t know, and then Willow says it might be another
fakeout from the BB. Buffy tells Willow that the
only way she will be convinced either way is to witness it
for herself.
Even before the scene later on in the show where the fact
that demons and other evils can tell ‘the truth’
and still use it deceptively, I had thought about exactly
that as I watched this scene. ‘Truth’ by and of itself
means little-- since nothing accurately exists outside of a
linked context with other things. This is one of
the reasons I personally tend to have so little patience
with ‘flat-earther’ types of personalities, who point
to some isolated statement in some manner of ‘holy writ’ and
bespeak it as unimpeachable. Malarky, sez I.
Even Xander, no Spike fan for sure, sees the ambiguity that
Buffy does and confesses to it.
Several posters have posited a guess that the real BB of the
year may turn out to be Satan hisself. (Sorry--
momentary pause here as I suddenly recall images of South
Park - The Movie and Saddam Hussein
and how poor Satan got the raw end of the deal. Never
mind... ;-)
It’s a tradition in most Satan-recognizing faiths that the
Devil deceives the most those to whom he tells
‘the truth’. And if this wasn’t true, how else do you
explain the world’s political/economic systems? Buffy
rejected the ‘politics’ of the Initiative and what it stood
for in season 4, trusting to see things for herself.
She stood up to the ‘truths’ that the First Slayer/The
Primitive tried to convince her of, insisting that there
was a better, newer way. Over the course of the last two
seasons, Buffy passed through the bleakness of
the ‘Truth’, and came out the other side, tempered but not
broken. I see that old self-assurance gradually
returning, and I expect it to only gain momentum as Buffy
learns to trust herself again. I think those fans
who are postulating that Buffy will turn evil or otherwise
‘go dark’ this year are way off base. I
think that Buffy will turn out to be more powerful and
better than ever, and she’s going to take her friends
with her. There are signs all over the place, subtle at the
moment, but I’m convinced that it’s not a
fake-out.
*She’s Gotta Have It*
It’s now later in the day, and we are back to Xander’s
apartment. Anya is in the living room, and is getting
visibly nervous as the light through the window is fading
fast. She decides that she would rather be active
than passive, and sneaks into Spike’s room to do some
recon.
Spike is sleeping, and Anya almost gets away with her
snooping when Spike grabs her arm and asks her
just ‘exactly what she’s doing here’. Anya, still recovering
from getting caught, thinks frantically for a
plausible explanation and finally comes up with “I want to
have sex with you!” Now it’s Spike’s turn to be
surprised.
Anya presses on with the act, straddling Spike and then
nuzzling his neck. Spike pushes her back and
gently tries to let her down, apparently accepting her
intentions at face value. He says that he's tempted,
but it's not right. Surprisingly, at least to me anyway,
Anya genuinely seems to be hurt, even though the
whole riff was a scam to cover her tracks for snooping. She
reveals that she really is totally down in the
dumps at being human and ‘alone’ again when she states that
his lack of desire must be because “I’m Fat!”
or “It’s the haircut!”, neither of which we would have ever
believed coming from the mouth of earlier Anya
incarnations. This scene is funny on initial viewing, and
superficially appears written as such, but is really
quite sad in retrospect when you realize that these two ex-
demons really are lonely and bereft in so many
ways that all of the knowledge of their former power leaves
them powerless to deal with. Might not only
doesn’t make right, it can’t even make up with it after it
knows that it was wrong.
*Music Soothes the Savage... Well, OK... Never
mind...*
It is now evening, and Anya sits in a chair, idly flipping
through a magazine as Spike comes out of his
room. He apologizes to Anya again, but she she dismisses his
concerns, sighing and plainly still feeling
somewhat hurt, even knowing nothing that happened between
them was Spike’s fault. He leaves the
apartment, and Anya picks up the phone and alerts Buffy.
We cut to a scene on a Sunnydale street, which for some
reason is filled with ordinary people enjoying the
night life. (I suppose that Buffy must be doing a better job
than we expect, what with the attention paid to
the ‘devouring from beneath’ problem and all-- certainly
these folks aren’t afraid to be out after dark in
Sunnydale). A man whom we haven’t seen before is casually
leaning against a pillar, a musician playing a
happy tune on his harmonica. We see Spike, who walks toward
and then passes by the musician. As he
does, the man’s tune changes to the same folk song Spike was
heard humming earlier. It has an ovbious
effect on Spike, and he starts to hum it almost as if it was
casting a spell on him.
We now cut to Buffy who is trying desperately to follow
Spike’s movements within the dense crowd. She
sees him approach a young woman, who chats him up, and he
her. They walk off together, and Buffy
appears to follow them. Spike and the woman eventually end
up in an alley off the main street, where they
start ‘necking’, but not the vampy kind. The woman admits to
being attracted to the possibility of Spike
being a ‘bad boy’. They nuzzle some more, then Spike looks
up, startled, to see Buffy approaching him, a
with a very odd look on her face.
Buffy initial cold glare morphs seamlessly into one of open
glee. Buffy smiles broadly, then tells Spike,
“You know you want it.... you know I want you to...” Spike
looks confused, then looks back at the
woman (who doesn’t seem to see Buffy, strangely enough),
then suddenly morphs into vamp face. The
woman screams in terror, but Spike buries his fangs in her
neck and begins to feed. Buffy-- obviously now
not the real Buffy but the FE posing in her image-- looks
proudly at the demon incarnation of Spike, and
says, chillingly, “There's my guy!”
( ~ ~ ~ Continued in Part II ~ ~ ~ )
[> Re: The Gods are in the Details - Thoughts on
*Sleeper* Pt. II - ( Spoilers as above ) -- OnM,
21:35:36 11/24/02 Sun
( ~ ~ ~ Continued from Part I ~ ~ ~ )
*More Coffins, Warden?*
"Now... doesn't that feel better?" crows the FE/ Buffy as
Spike turns back towards her, his mouth dripping
with the woman’s lifeblood. The woman's body slides out of
his grip and falls to the ground as Spike
suddenly gets a confused and then horrified look on his
face, now back to its human visage once again. He
runs by FE/ Buffy and back out onto the main street. If
there was even the faintest remaining question that
we weren’t dealing with the BB, it quickly shifts from a
visage of Buffy to one of Spike himself, but the
evil grin remains. FE/ Spike, gazing in the direction real/
Spike ran off in, quotes the line from the folk
tune, “How could you use a poor maiden so?”
The next scene is back at Xander’s place, as we see Buffy
violently throw Spike out of bed, landing him on
the floor. Buffy demands to know if he killed the girl he
was with, as she stands looming over him. Spike
denies knowing what Buffy is talking about, but he can see
that Buffy is in near-Slayer mode, and very
angry. Buffy tells Spike that she saw him go off with a
woman, but then lost them and didn't get to see
what happened. (By this, I don’t know if this meant she
found the woman’s body or not. Either way, she
obviously didn’t see the actual kill, so everything is still
frustratingly all suspicion but no proof.)
Spike takes offense, and wants to know why Buffy is
following him. but Buffy keeps insisting he confess to
being the guilty party. Spike admits talking to a woman, but
that this was all he did. He doesn’t understand
whay Buffy isn’t believeing him, he reminds her that ‘he
can’t’ kill anyone. Buffy, apparently now
accepting Xander’s conjecture that the chip is
malfunctioning and Spike has been acting out its effects
on
him, dismisses his excuse of ‘the chip’.Then something
disconcerting happens that Buffy doesn’t seem to
expect.
“No, not the chip. Not the chip, dammit!” Spike laments,
genuinely looking hurt. “You honestly think I'd
go back to the end of the underworld to get my soul and
then...” Buffy now understands what Spike
actually meant , and starts to back down her anger, looking
significantly less Slayerish. Spike continues:
“Buffy, do you honestly think I can live with what I did...
it haunts me...” (pause) “If you think I would
add to the body count now, you're crazy.”
Now, this is what I was talking about earlier. At the end of
*Beneath You*, we see Buffy shocked to
discover that Spike had willingly become ensouled, but
beyond that it was very hard to tell just what her
reaction would be over time. In the very next episode, it
semed that she was deliberately being very cold
and distant from Spike, as if she thought that all of this
soul business was just another ruse for Spike to use
against her, or some kind of a trick. The logical world of
experience dictates that she should assume this,
for the safety of those around her, but in play with that is
her gut feelings, which are telling her that this
bizarre occurrance could be exactly as it appears. She is
confused, and indecisive as to how to behave.
As time passes, and she spends more time with Spike, she
comes to believe that his actions were ‘real’, and
that it was not a trick to deceiver her. Now, evidence
appears supporting her original fears. Does she
freeze up? No. Does she go full on Slayer and dust him? No.
She suppresses her highly conflicted emotions
and her ‘normal’ obsessive drive to take immediate physical
action and acts like an adult. She
listens to what he has to say, weighs it against the
evidence at hand
*Dead Man Talking*
Spike: “As daft a notion as Soulful-Spike-the-Killer is, it
is nothing compared to the idea that
another girl could mean anything to me. This chip, they did
to me-- I couldn't help it. The soul I got
on my own... for you. (pauses) So yeah, I go and pass
the time, with someone. But that's all it is,
just time. God help me, Buffy, it's still all about
you.”
Buffy finds this rather painful to hear, because as she
confessed to Holden in CwDP, she
understands that in his ‘sick, twisted way’ Spike really
did/does love her.
Holden’s name appears again when Buffy, in one last attempt,
tells Spike that Holden claimed to have been
sired by Spike. Spike again denies the accusation, but now
something changes in his demeanor as he begins
to realize that he doesn’t remember some things from the
times he goes out wandering around. Spike starts
to look confused, wondering why this should be so. Buffy
points out that Spike has been doing a number
of strange things lately, including talking to invisible
people, but Spike, despite his confusion over the ‘lost
time’ declares that he can’t be guilty and that Buffy needs
to have definite proof, certainly more than the
word of a dead vampire. We tend to assume that Buffy
secretly agrees, for a variety of reasons, not the
least of which is the terrifying thought that she may have
made a grave mistake by getting Spike out of the
school basement and back into ‘the world’. Her external
demeanor may not overtly reveal this, but it has to
be on her mind throughout this whole sequence of events.
*The Lyin’, the Witch and the Wardrobe*
We return to the Summers’ house, where Willow is doing
research. Buffy, Dawn and Anya are there also.
Dawn wants to know why Buffy’s questioning everything, when
they ‘know’ that the BB was lying to
everyone and that Holden may not have been telling the truth
about Spike being his sire. Willow says it's
possible the BB was lying, but it's also possible the
statements contained at least some element of truth.
Anya confirms this tactic, by pointing out that she told the
truth many times when she was evil.
(BTW, is this the first time Anya has ever referred
to herself as having been ‘evil’ during her past
life as a demon? I think it is, and if so, that makes it all
the better for being mentioned as an almost casual,
throwaway remark on her part. Buffy pointed out to Xander
when he tried to keep Buffy from killing Anya
that Anya had chosen to become a demon, and not once
but twice. William certainly had
little foreknowledge of what would become of him after
Drusilla so kindly offered to ‘improve’ his
miserable life, and self-ensouled-Spike is a whole ‘nother
thang. Yes, you can debate it, but there are some
differences. Most, if not all past Slayers never debated
them, they played it ‘safe’ and went straight for the
kill. Buffy agonizes over the subtleties, and risks the
mistakes that might occur if she judges incorrectly.)
Anya suggests that if Spike has been killing people, Willow
should be able to use the computer to find out
if there have been reports of bodies with neck trauma.
Willow checks, and doesn’t find any such reports,
but does notice that a number of people, mostly young women,
have been reported missing. Dawn submits
that this appears to be pretty convincing evidence, but
Buffy tells her that only Spike knows ‘for sure’ if he
killed those people.
In an interesting visual note to this scene, Dawn and Buffy
are dressed in very similar clothing and hair
styles, and in one particular camera angle are posed
together in the shot similarly to the way they were in
Same Time, Same Place at the airport. Is this meant
to suggest that Dawn is emulating her older
sister, and reserving judgement on whether her experience
with her mother was ‘real’, the way Buffy is
reserving judgement about Spike and or/Holden? I also
noticed that Buffy was dressed in classic Slayer
black went she confronted Spike, and is now dressed in
lighter, warmer colors, and once more her clothing
choices appear to reflect her mood.
.
*I Did It My Way*
The problem is, we know that Spike doesn’t
know. He is however, appalled that Buffy
suspects him of these crimes, so he intends to investigate
things himself. As he puts on his jacket, he pulls
out a pack of cigarettes, which unexpectedly triggers a
flashback. He recalls picking up the blonde girl that
he subsequently killed, then sees her laying dead on the
ground of the basement. The flashback then seems
to fade or disappear as quickly as it came, and Spike pushes
the confusing thought of it aside and heads out
the door of his room.
Xander, who is eating dinner, jumps up from the table and
tries to stop Spike from leaving, insisting that
Buffy doesn’t want him to vacate the premises. Spike says he
understands, but he can’t sit here and wait,
he needs to get proof that Buffy is wrong about him. Xander
steps in again, but Spike suddenly clocks
Xander, knocking him out. The chip immediately kicks in and
Spike cries out and winces, but shakes it off
and leaves the apartment.
*I Hate Playing Vampire Towns*
Aimee Mann is playing the Bronze, or at least I assume it’s
the Bronze-- Aimee seems like a pretty
high-profile act for a little town like Sunnydale, but hey,
the music business is strange these days-- and
more on that later on. Spike is wandering around, trying to
get info from the bartender and other patrons
as to the identity of the girl he was talking to the other
night, but no one seems to know anything about
her. Spike goes upstairs to the loft above the dance floor
to think about what to do next, and a woman
comes over to where he’s seated and starts making a move on
him. He tries to brush her off, but it turns
out she’s a vampire, and worse yet, one who claims that
he sired her.
A fight ensues, and Spike finally stakes the vamp woman just
an instant before she falls over the railing of
the loft. Plummeting to the dance floor below, the vamp
explosively turns to dust right in front of Aimee,
her band, and quite a number of patrons who stare bug-eyed
at the spot where she landed and poofed.
Aimee stares at the dust for only a few moments, then starts
up playing right where she left off, like
nothing ever happened. The crowd starts moving about and
dancing again, apparently feeling likewise. As I
said, it’s the music business.
*The Mediocre Borrow, The Truly Great Steal*
Meanwhile, Xander has recovered from Spike’s knockout punch,
and has called Buffy to tell her what
happened. Outside the club, Buffy walks up to the doorman
and starts asking if he’s seen anyone of Spike’s
description. The doorman does in fact recognize Spike, and
calls him ‘a Billy Idol wannabe’. Buffy starts to
correct him, and points out that Billy got his look by
copying Spike, then thinks the better of imparting this
information. The doorman says Spike is a regular patron, and
he goes home each night with a different girl.
Buffy tries not to look hurt, and questions ‘how many?’, and
the doorman tries to tell Buffy that if she’s
this guy’s girlfriend, she might want to consider leaving
him, because ‘he’s a real player’.
*Can You Hear Me Now? Good...
Gahhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!*
Inside the club, Spike heads for phone just as Aimee and
band exit the stage. Spike picks up the handset
and dials just as we hear Aimee comment that she “hates
playing vampire towns”. Someone answers at the
other end of the call, (whom I assumed was Buffy), and Spike
says “It's me. I'm seeing... I think I'm
remembering. I think I’ve done some very bad things.” He is
clearly badly rattled, but is trying to hold it
together.
Sure enough, it’s Buffy at the other end, cell phone up to
her ear, asking where Spike is. Spike tells her he
needs to see her, and then gives her an address for the
meeting. Buffy agrees to meet him, and then hangs
up, presumably heading to the address Spike just gave her, a
house somewhere. As Spike hangs up and
turns to leave, he finds himself staring at the FE/ Spike
version of himself. FE/ Spike says that Spike is
going against the plan, but it could still work out
anyway.
*Beneath Me, But Not So Far*
We are now presumably at the house Spike mentioned in his
phone call to Buffy, and Spike is decending
the basement stairs. We suspect that it is the one where he
buried the dead girl, and this is confirmed in the
next few minutes. Buffy is standing at the top of the
stairs, stake firmly in hand, with Spike ‘beneath her’.
She seems reluctant to come down any farther. Spike sees the
FE image of himself again, taunting him.
Buffy, of course, doesn’t see what Spike does. It’s hard to
tell whether or not she hears Spike talking to
the FE, but she does begin to descend the stairs and
eventually comes down to where Spike is. She asks
him to tell her what’s going on.
Spike says he's been remembering the girl Buffy saw him
with, and all the ones before her, and he now
thinks that he did kill them. He walks over to the middle of
the dirt floor, and then tells Buffy that he thinks
he buried the bodies here. Buffy is shocked, despite all her
previous suspicions and accusations, and asks
Spike why he killed them, but Spike tells her that he
doesn’t know. As all this is sinking in, FE/
Spike starts singing the folk song, which has the same sort
of Pavlovian effect on Spike that it did before,
and he morphs into vamp Spike and attacks Buffy.
Buffy raises her stake to defend herself, but Spike wrests
it away and throws it toward a table with some
bottles, breaking the glass. Spike grabs a piece of the
broken glass and slashes Buffy on the arm with it.
Buffy fights back despite the injury and is getting the
better of the battle when the FE chimes in that
“Things should get interesting now”, and the bodies buried
under the floor start to break through-- Spike
has apparently sired them all. The emerging vampires attack
Buffy and eventually hold her in place so
Spike can bite her, which is what the FE wants him to do.
But he doesn’t bite her, despite being under the
FE’s control-- instead, he finds himself drawn to the cut on
her arm, and bends down over it to lick up the
blood from the wound.
*I’m Standing Right Here!*
Now, sometimes I can guess what is going to happen in these
episodes, but I really didn’t see this
one coming, and it’s so perfect that I can’t help but
applaud ME’s sheer damned cleverness in
writing this scene. Spike tastes Buffy’s blood, but instead
of increasing his bloodlust, which is certainly
what the FE must have expected, it triggered another
reaction altogether. Buffy vs. Dracula,
anyone?
Spike seems startled as he starts having a rapid-fire series
of jarring flashbacks where he sees himself biting,
killing, feeding on, and burying body after body, all the
ones that were buried in the floor. Spike abruptly
pulls away from Buffy's wounded arm and we see him in his
normal human face, stunned and bewildered.
The flashbacks slam into him a second time, and Spike
staggers away, falls into a corner, cringing in horror
at the undeniable realization of what he’s done.
Buffy breaks loose from the vampires that are holding her,
and in incredibly quick fashion dusts all of the
remaining vamps with the handle of a shovel, most likely the
one Spike used to bury them with. Then she
turns and walks slowly over towards Spike, who is still
huddled in the corner. The FE/ Spike is
contemptuously jibing him that now Buffy will kill him too,
and that he has ‘failed’.
*Forgive Me Mother, For I Have Sinned*
Buffy is staring at Spike with her now-classic ultimate-
poker-faced look, but she makes no other move,
just looks downward at him. Spike looks back up at her,
knowing that this is the end. He leans back
against the wall and opens up his jacket, pleading quietly
to her to “do it quick, OK?” Buffy continues
staring, but still doesn’t move. Spike becomes more agitated
at Buffy’s apparent unwillingness to take him
out of his misery:
“He said you'd do it!”
“Who said?
“Me... Me... I saw him... I saw him the whole time,
talking and singing.
“What are you talking about?”
“I don’t know... I can’t... remember”. Spike turns
and yells loudly in the direction of the stairs.
“Make it so I forget again! I did what you
wanted!”
Buffy looks around, finally starting to grok what is going
on, and that her first instincts were correct--
something evil is manipulating Spike, and it’s probably the
same evil thing that has been playing these same
cruel games with the rest of the Scoobies. She tells Spike
that “There's something here”, then tosses the
shovel handle aside. Spike groans at this move, and begs her
once again to kill him, that he ‘can’t cry this
soul out of me’. All of the deaths he has caused are
torturing him, and he can’t stand it.
Buffy tells Spike what she thinks is happening, and Spike
wants to know what it is, what it wants. He
calms just a little. Buffy doesn’t know, and she tells him
this. In one of the most emotionaly touching
moments since the scene in the church, he pleads with her to
“help him”, and she agrees.
*The Evolution Of Absolution & CSI Sunnydale, Pt
II*
We are nearing the end of this beautifully paced ep as
Buffy, Dawn, Xander, Willow and Spike are all
sitting around in the Summers’ house, trying to decide on a
course of action. Spike is sitting over a ways,
off by himself, calm but still not looking all that well.
Xander is noting with his usual quippage that he’s not
sure it’s such a good idea to have Spike around now that
they know he has killed people despite the
chippage. Buffy defends having him there, though, saying
that he was under the control of the BB, and that
what he did wasn’t his fault. Besides which, Spike was in
contact with this specific evil longer than any of
them so far, and if they want to find a way to defeat it,
knowledge Spike may have could become essential.
Xander objects to the risks involved, but Buffy says there
is no other choice-- things are already dangerous,
and they’ll very likely get worse. One suspects Buffy isn’t
remotely wrong about that, and the very next
scene emphasizes her point.
*(Un)Kindly Do as I Axe, OK?*
And now for the gut-wrenching parting shot. We are back in
England, and a door flies open forcefully into
the room where we saw the dead proto-slayer and her Watcher.
It’s Giles, and he looks around the room,
spies the dead girl, and moves quickly over to her body to
verify that she is indeed dead. He calls out for a
‘Robson’, presumably the name of the Watcher, and then sees
the man in question lying on the floor in
another part of the room, also apparently dead. Giles rushes
over, looking still more distressed. He kneels
down by Robson, but Robson isn’t dead, just nearly so.
Robson, with what are likely his last breaths, tells
Giles that he must “Gather them... it has started”.
Giles replies that he understands, but as he says
this a hooded, robed figure sneaks up behind him, battle axe
in hand. The figure swings the axe in a
powerful stroke, and we cut to black and the end credits as
the blade is inches from Giles’ head.
*Why Won’t You Let Us Rest in Peace*
Well, I got caught up in this again this week. I started out
commenting as I went along, describing the
story as it unfolded, and over the last several sections got
more involved in revisiting the story than
commenting on it. ( ~sigh~ ) It seems that simply viewing
the ep 4 or 5 times on tape after the original
airing just usn’t enough anymore! So, I’ll put down a few
thoughts here in this space, and then get outa
here for the week.
OK, where’d I leave off? Somewhere around ‘More Coffins,
Warden’?
Whatever, first off while there was less humor than in many
typical BtVS eps, what was present in this one
was sharp and pointy humor, and sharp and pointy is where
it’s at in BtVS, ya know? Besides Buffy’s
telling the doorman about Billy Idol copying Spike’s style,
the great line by Aimee Mann about how she
‘hates playing vampire towns’ just had to be a dig at
the music industry, since I have heard tell that
she despises it, for all the classic reasons. We know that
vamps often stand in for arrested adolescence, but
one of my very early takes on vamp metaphors was that they
represented the ‘bloodsucker’ image of
rampantly indifferent capitalism. Not a big jump from that
ref to the music industry, methinks. I also liked
that the image behind her band was a TV test pattern.
Rorshach test, anyone?
I keep waiting for someone to plant a serious uh-oh into my
‘Buffy the Kwisatz Haderach’ theory, the
longest running and still best-supported of my long line of
Wacky Buffy Theories (tm), but not only hasn’t
this occurred so far, this ep places more hearty stock into
the eventual goddess/ higher-being-in-training
soup than I’ve tasted for a long while. Has anyone taken
special note that for someone who is ‘such a
bitch’, Buffy is one of the most loving, forgiving,
reasonable persons in this whole mythology? She may
very well be a ‘committee’ some day, it wouldn’t surprise me
at all. I loved that Spike finally said the right
words at the right time, and that Buffy accepted the
challenge as gracefully as she did for Anya in her
defining moment.
And I love the way this ep was so underplayed. There were
some stunning changes in the group dynamic in
this story, which is obviously still in play and will
continue to at least next week, but you could have them
float right by you, they moved so quietly. The action scenes
didn’t resolve anything, they just punctuated
the actual resolutions. This was really great teamwork
between Espenson and Fury, and it shows.
And that’s it. See you next week, when I predict that Zachs
Mind is correct that Giles will stop the axe
magically, like Willow stopped the spider in
Selfless.
(No, they won’t kill Giles! Get real! Jeez...)
*Famous Last Words*
;-)
[> [> Terrific play-by-play, OnM! -- HonorH,
22:44:39 11/24/02 Sun
I always look forward to your reviews.
This ep was so very concentrated around Buffy and Spike,
just as "Beneath You" was, and I love how you bring out the
parallels. The more I think about it, the more I'm certain
that Buffy's coldness to Spike, her withdrawal, was *not* a
mistake or continuity error, but her deliberately trying to
keep some distance from him while she figured out exactly
what him having a soul meant. The basement scene certainly
bears me out on this. Buffy, seeing how distressed Spike is,
kneels beside him. She doesn't touch him--touching, for
them, carries confusing messages, and at least twice has
caused him even more distress since he got his soul.
Instead, she hunches down by him, making herself less
intimidating, more comforting, and verbally soothes him. She
makes things less confusing for him. He asks for help, and
she agrees to give what help she can.
Beautiful writing--both the ep, and OnM.
[> [> What I love about this episode...(beneath
you/CwtD/sleeper spoiler) -- Rob, 22:56:04 11/24/02
Sun
...is that, now looking back on "Beneath You," we finally
have a better perspective about what was going on in Spike's
head as he bounced back and forth between personalities
(although not yet a completely full picture--will we ever?).
I have very little doubt that when he first attacked Anya in
the Bronze, and then started acting cruel and very
Evil!Spike-ish to Buffy that it was upon hearing that quaint
little ditty.
I also agree with your spec that Buffy will not turn evil or
dark this year. I certainly hope she doesn't. I believe
that, yes, she may finally face the dark forces from whence
the Slayer originally came, but I just can't see her being
the villain. After all the talk about psychoanalyzing her,
and her epiphany at the end of "Grave," I really think Joss
wants to finally let Buffy reach a point where she is
satisfied in both her Slayer and Human lives, where she can
strike a perfect balance between the two. I think she will
have to acknowledge her darkness, but not give into it.
That's what last year was about. I think it's time for Buffy
to finally prove all of those people who call her "cold and
heartless" wrong. Now that she's finally addressed her
superiority/inferiority complex, I want her to confront it
head on, and nip it in the bud. And I have a feeling that
this battle against what looks like it will be the Biggest
Bad of them all will help her a great deal in this regard. I
think she will have to face things and finally heal.
Regarding Giles, although I would love to believe your (and
ZachsMinds') theory, I have a really bad feeling that he's
really, really dead. And if he is, it will prove that
ANYTHING can truly happen this year. The rules are being
broken. No one is safe from this villain. And should Giles
die, he would be the first core Scoobie to ever be killed
(unless we count Jesse--but does anyone? ;o) ). His death
makes the danger seem all the greater, this darkness seem
all the scarier.
Not that I wouldn't throw a party and command Numfar to do
the Dance of Joy if he isn't. ;o)
Rob
Rob
[> [> [> Something else... (CwDP spoiler) Btw,
sorry for the misspelled acronym on the previous post --
Rob, 23:01:52 11/24/02 Sun
...In CwDP, Buffy mentions Spike's name. Only then does
Holden say, "Spike?" and tell her that he's the one who
sired him. Whether he's part of the Big Bad or not, I call
into question the fact that he did not supply Spike's name
himself but just said that he recognized it. Not that Spike
really wasn't drinking from humans. I just find it
suspicious that Holden only said that Spike had done it once
the name had already been provided to him.
Rob
[> [> [> [> Well, he had no reason to
volunteer the info. -- HonorH, 23:11:23 11/24/02
Sun
It was only when Buffy provided the name and Holden
recognized it that he provided the information that Spike
was the one who'd sired him. It's like if you meet someone
at a party and they mention someone's name, you, realizing
you two have a connection, mention that that very person was
your 8th grade English teacher. I just took it as a, "Whoa,
yeah, I know that guy!" reaction.
[> [> [> [> Re: Something else... (CwDP
spoiler) picky but maybe important detail? -- luna,
06:11:31 11/25/02 Mon
In OnM's first post, he says:
" But note that Xander refers to Holden as ‘Webs’, his
school
nickname, not ‘Holden’ or “Webster’. He does in in a voice
that suggests he used the nick often or
regularly, at least back then. If I’m not putting too much
faith in this spin, it would at least tend to confirm
that Webs was real, not something that Buffy was made to
accept as real when it wasn’t."
Well, the real Webster could have been real, just as the
real Joyce and Cassie were real, but what Buffy saw could
still have been the BB or its product--however, his
appearance still suggests that Webster (Holden) is dead
(Conversations with DEAD people). So we still really don't
know.
But to me the convincing evidence of its being the BB was
its ability to tune in to the specifics of Buffy's thoughts,
just as it did with Willow and Dawn.
[> [> [> With all due respect, Rob.. (speccy
spoilery) -- ZachsMind, 09:01:51 11/25/02 Mon
"Regarding Giles, although I would love to believe your
(and ZachsMinds') theory, I have a really bad feeling that
he's really, really dead."
With all due respect Rob, it's far too soon for us to just
write Giles off one way or another.
They're gonna make us *think* Giles is dead, but I seriously
doubt they're gonna kill him off. There's too much potential
money still to be made with Giles. We still got the
possibility of BBC's "Ripper" to contend with. UNLESS ASH
has made it clear to Mutant Enemy (publically or privately)
he wants to never have anything to do with the character
again and says no to any future with Ripper, and to the
press ASH has made it clear he's still interested in the
spinoff series, Giles can't die.
They could always kill him off in Buffy and then bring him
back to life somehow in Ripper. That's always a possibility.
This IS television after all. However, I sincerely doubt
that's gonna happen. What'll happen is they'll make us
wonder whether or not Giles is dead, Giles'll show up and
may or may not appear to be the Big Bad Whatever in
disguise, then the REAL Giles'll show up in a coma or with a
headwound from that big axe thingy and then the Scoobies'll
know that the other Giles is a fake.
Or something.
[> [> [> [> Who's to say "Ripper" can't take
place pre-"Buffy"? -- Finn Mac Cool, 11:50:15
11/25/02 Mon
[> [> Re: The Gods are in the Details - Thoughts on
*Sleeper* Pt. II - ( Spoilers as above ) -- alcibiades,
10:34:47 11/25/02 Mon
Now... doesn't that feel better?" crows the FE/ Buffy as
Spike turns back towards her, his mouth dripping with the
woman’s lifeblood. The woman's body slides out of his grip
and falls to the ground as Spike suddenly gets a confused
and then horrified look on his face, now back to its human
visage once again. He runs by FE/ Buffy and back out onto
the main street. If there was even the faintest remaining
question that we weren’t dealing with the BB, it quickly
shifts from a visage of Buffy to one of Spike himself, but
the evil grin remains. FE/ Spike, gazing in the direction
real/ Spike ran off in, quotes the line from the folk tune,
“How could you use a poor maiden so?”
Thus far, without the full evidence, my interpretation of
this scene is that for vampireSpike, Buffy was his
replacement super ego, the paradigm he used as a replacement
for a superego to figure out what to do. Thus, in his
hypnotized or mind controlled state, when he gets the
command from MorphyBuffy who he thinks is real Buffy to go
ahead and give into his vampire nature and bite the girl, he
complies, because Buffy is his moral compass. But deep down
inside, when he finishes biting the girl, he knows that this
is all wrong, but he can't account for it. He knows inside
of himself that something is wrong. And this causes massive
confusion and horror. He doesn't stay, he runs off,
rejecting what has gone on.
I also still think real Dru must be involved with this. She
knows that love of her made Spike turn himself into a
monster, and she must have sussed out that love of Buffy
turned Spike back from that and made him a man. She knows
very well how this mechanism works in him internally.
[> [> [> Re: The Gods are in the Details -
Thoughts on *Sleeper* Pt. II - ( Spoilers as above ) --
Slain, 12:40:30 11/25/02 Mon
I'm not so sure about Dru, or any other character, being
involved; I say this because the BB seems to not only know
events, but to know feelings. I think it quite
probably understands Spike as well as Dru, perhaps more than
he himself.
The idea of Spike becoming first evil, and then good,
through his relationships with women, interests me, as
although it's fairly explicit in the show, it's not
something that I often consider. Spike always strikes me as
an internal, perhaps lonely, character. Others influence
him, but ulimately he makes his own choices. It seems to me
that Spike often lays responsibility on 'bloody women' for
ruining, or for bringing meaning to, his life, but that
ultimately he does these things himself. Perhaps that's just
the existentialism talking (and I can't get away from the
parallels between Spike and several literary existential
protagonists), but I usually see his journey as personal; he
allows himself to be defined by his loves.
Just some tangential thoughts - feel free to dismiss them.
What I originally intended to do was to thank OnM for a
thread double-post. I wasn't all that satisfied by 'Sleeper'
at first, good as it was, as it seemed that interesting
possibilities about the true nature of a souled vampire
suggested in CwDP were being dismissed in favour of a return
to the established ideas... but having read a breakdown of
the episode from a different perspective, I think I'll like
this episode more when I watch it again. Which shows, I
think, the greater value of positive criticism.
Why happiness? (general spoilers of BtVS including
S7.7) -- Sang, 21:56:27 11/24/02 Sun
It is kind of OT, but there was something bothered me from
pre-Buffy time.
Why many writers made there hero meet their doom when he/she
admits that they find true happiness or peace in mind?
Like Faust in Goethe's 'Faust' or Tomas in Kundera's 'The
unbearable lightness of being', our hero who experienced
many things without feeling anything special, finally found
happiness and peace in simple things around. In that moment,
they die and their souls are taken away.
I found out Joss like this concept quite a lot. Obvious
example is Angel. He doesn't die by 'happiness' but will
lose his soul.
Then there was Tara who faced her fatal moment after the
'happy moment', and Jonathan who admit that he found a
peace with his memories just before his ending (when he was
talking to Andrew about how he felt about people who were
wrong to him, I was saying myself 'Oh my god, he is SO
dead!')
Well Jenny Calendar and Joyce Summers were not exactly clear
case, however they died after they thought they were
recoverd from their depression (Jenny was about to reconcile
with Giles and Joyce thought she was healthy and happy
again.)
Why is 'I am happy' the word for the ending of their mortal
life?
[>
A couple of suggestions... -- KdS, 03:45:52
11/25/02 Mon
In heaven, everything is fine. You've got your good
things and I've got mine...
David Lynch via Black Francis
Suggestion one: Joss is a sadist :-) Moreover, once a
character gets an epiphany of such magnitude, it's a good
place to end their arc - less easy to create development
without having them backslide.
Suggestion two: Joss is the opposite of a sadist...
On the main ATPoBtVS&AtS page for the first few epsiodes of
S7, there's a quote from a poster called Ryuei suggesting a
Buddhist interpretation of Buffy's post-mortem experience -
that she achieved a state of nirvana in the last moments of
her life. Could it be that we're seeing the possibility
that what drives a Buffyverse person's post-mortem fate
isn't so much their deeds over their lifetime as their state
at the point of death? Doesn't seem entirely moral, but
what religion's afterlife really is? Perhaps if people die
in "a good place", then they stay in a good place
afterwards?
[> [>
Re: A couple of suggestions... -- Arethusa,
06:18:40 11/25/02 Mon
I second KdS's # 1.
Dramatically, it makes the death more poignant, unexpected
and, perhaps, ironic if it occurs when someone is at their
happiest. Whedon is truly the King of Pain! (Which makes
us masochists, doesn't it?)
[> [> [>
Sadists, really, since we watch these characters suffer
for entertainment -- Finn Mac Cool, 14:16:39 11/25/02
Mon
[> [> [>
I dunno, but... -- belle, 20:30:46 11/25/02
Mon
...combined with Cassie's "someday she'll tell you," that
particular trope doesn't bode well for a certain blond
vampire.
[> [> [> [>
Re: Oh.. you are right! -- Sang, 07:59:00
11/26/02 Tue
If Cassie's prophecy meant Buffy will tell what Spike was
longing to hear from her. And if it happend at the crucial
moment... It really doesn't look good for him.
No one was safe after their true 'happy moment'.
The great Sunnydale death pool! (Two very well known
casting spoilers, no actual future events) -- KdS,
04:55:03 11/25/02 Mon
Despite all the rumours about whether this will or will not
the be last BtVS season, it looks that we're heading for
something really big. Given the notorious degree of pain,
blood and slaughter over the last six years, I think I can
safely predict that not all of our core sympathetic cast are
going to survive the end of this season. The following is
some unspoiled speculation about the characters' chances of
survival, based on previous ME storytelling tactics and
cultural norms.
Buffy: The disagreement between Rah and myself over
this issue (see archives passim) surfaced again over
pizza last night. While I accept all Rah's points that
Buffy's death might be seen as merely another example of
"punishment of strong women" in pop culture, I believe that
the traditions of the hero's final death and/or
transcendence in European myth are strong enough to defend
against accusations of sexism. While Rah argued last night
that Buffy's forced return from the grave was a subversion
of the idea of heavenly reward, suggesting that it was
merely a false escape and moral cop-out, I feel that one
cannot regard death in the Buffyverse as a punishment. If
it were a punishment, then why would interference with the
eternal rest of the dead be so continually shown as a bad
idea? An ending with Buffy simply continuing her life in a
contingent human way might be an ME-style subversion of
mythology, but I doubt it would create the finality that ME
(or SMG) would desire, and would be very hard to write
without leaving fans with a feeling of something-or-other
interruptus. A compromise might have her
transcending in some way - taking the fight against evil to
a whole new level beyond human comprehension. That,
however, has already had the p**s ripped out of it in AtS.
One thing I would like to make clear is that I don't believe
we'll see PsychoSlayer!Buffy shot down like a rabid dog.
Anything along those lines really would be "Punishment of
strong women", and would end the show on a downer that I
don't believe ME really want. ME are about rising above the
darkness of the world, not empty GenX nihilism.
Giles: Might have just happened. At this stage in
the season, I simply do not have a clue what might be in
store. I have a gut feeling that Giles as vessel for the
Big Bad has such potential for angst, torment and pitch-
black humour that none of the ME writers would be capable of
resisting it. I have absolute confidence in ASH's ability
to play the Antichrist, and I doubt many actors could resist
such an opportunity. On a metaphorical level, having Giles
die before the end of the series would help to create a
sense of the passage of the torch from one generation to
another, might show Buffy (and the Scoobies in general)
finally reaching adulthood by saying farewell to both her
parental figures, and might help to create a sense of clean
break while leaving Buffy satisfactorily alive.
Spike: Atonements 'R' Us. The idea of Spike
sacrificing himself to save humanity is so obvious and such
a hallowed convention that I'm convinced it won't happen.
The only possibility that would satisfy me would be if
someone had to condemn themselves to eternal combat as a
Hellmouth-cork and Spike volunteered in a spirit of absolute
glee.
Buffy: NOOOOOO! (lip quivering) I won't let
you sacrifice yourself for me!
Spike: Who's talking about sacrifice? Kicking demon
arses for ever, no moral ambiguity to get on your nerves...
I'd be happy as a pig in... (grins broadly, vamps out,
and jumps into hellmouth)
I see it in much the same way as with Angel in Amends
or Reprise - for Spike to sacrifice himself as
atonement would be far too easy. All of this is assuming
that ME won't go really dark and have a pointless ugly death
to wind things up. If that's true, all bets are off.
Willow: Atonements 'R' Us Part Two. Same concerns
as with Spike, although the fact that Willow has more to
live for might make her demise a more powerful and genuine
sacrifice (and at least one prominent poster here thinks
Willow deserves to die anyway). The whole "If you want to
get to the viewers, hurt Willow" thing might come into play
as well. Realistically, however, I think that fear of a
renewed DeadMinority controversy will make Willow's death
most unlikely, unless the body count is high enough that no-
one can feel singled out.
Anya: Atonements 'R' Us Part Three. The fact that
Emma Caulfield has openly and unambiguously announced her
departure post-S7 does make Anya's death more likely, and it
would be just like ME for Pinnochia to die on the threshold
of becoming a real girl. IMO, if they're going for tragic
atonement, this is the most likely candidate.
Xander: He's the ordinary Joe whose superpower has
always been his calm willingness to risk his life on blind
chance. After Ampatha, Jack, and WIllow, maybe someone will
finally call his bluff. It would undoubtedly fit in with
all manner of mythic precedents for the ordinary human being
to quietly lay down his life for the cause, and Xander's
accidental or pointless death would be a big tearjerker and
a reminder of the precariousness of life in the Buffyverse.
However, I have a gut feeling that even if everyone else
gets dead, Xander will be the one left to bear witness to
what went before. (I make no comment beyond acknowledgement
on the various Evil!Xander theories floating around, as I
think that your opinion on this is particularly dependent on
actually seeing the episodes and making up your own mind
instead of relying on web synopses and reviews.)
Dawn: Really, really dark, probably too dark for ME.
It's possible that Dawn might end up having to become a
green floaty thing to seal the Hellmouth. However, that
would nullify everthing Buffy's worked for over the last
three years, and leave the series arguing that Destiny's
gonna get you, which has always been the antithesis of ME's
position (I acknowledge Rah's post ages ago on the survival
of the ordained innocent sacrifice in The Gift). Of
course, it's possible that someone might do some jiggery-
pokery with an Orb of Thessula so that Dawn ends up as a
green floaty thing with a human soul and consciousness.
That would provide great opportunities for a real, all-out
fantasy spin-off (Dawn the Interdimensional
Troubleshooter) but probably won't happen.
Faith: Atonements 'R' Us Part Four. All depends on
Faith's personality when she gets out of jail. Is she going
to be tormented-Angel seeker after atonement, snarky Rogue-
on-the-side-of-good, all-out unpredictable psychopath? Need
more information...
Multiple demises: I must admit, I don't believe ME
will go for an end-of-series bloodbath in the style of the
infamous Blake's Seven (if you have no idea what I'm
talking about, go to www.hermit.org/Blakes7 for a Cliff's
Notes). On the other hand, two or three deaths will provide
that perfect sense of bittersweet closure, and depending on
who dies it might provide that whole sickly Romeo&Juliet
united-in-death thing (too Hallmark for ME, probably). Then
again, there may be a bittersweet sort-of-happy ending with
all the former residents of Sunnydale being served canapes
by a cheerful young woman with an ankh...
On the other hand, the whole of this post might turn out to
be so toally offbeam that I have to hide in a basement in
shame forever :-)
[>
Re: Practicalities and the death pool. -- Darby,
06:23:42 11/25/02 Mon
There are considerations beyond the very valid dramatic
effects you've mentioned. Remember, Joss is just a demi-
god, there are still people above him on Olympus whose
decisions are framed by money considerations, such as...
A Buffy feature film. Despite some things SMG
has said, if a major studio wanted a BtVS movie, she'd jump
on board (just give her a couple more years of picking
movies on her own and she'll be asking for Joss to write
one!). With a potential franchise there (likely critical
features: the name, SMG, Joss...), it's doubtful that Fox,
who at the end have final control over the characters, would
allow several of them - Buffy, Willow, and probably Xander,
maybe Spike - to be killed off. Makes one wonder if Buffy
would have been allowed to die at the end of S5 if that was
going to be the last season.
Possible spin-offs. This also might interfere
with killing off Giles (unless Ripper is much more
dead than they're telling us), Willow, and conceivably
Spike, Dawn, and Faith.
Other license holders. Put the book, comics,
and syndication (especially that last bunch) people together
and you have a decent influx of money. How would a bunch of
suits look at the impact on future sales of killing the
Scooby Gang? Does anyone know what similar effects played
off the endings of Xena, or The X-Files?
So Faith, Anya, Riley, and a few others (how do you write
Buffy out and keep Dawn? Bring Hank back?) are potential
cannon fodder, but the others are much less likely. With
this added in, I think the most probable Big Scooby Death is
the setting itself, Sunnydale, devoured from beneath. There
may be an ulterior motive to showing us how Big Honkin' Evil
exists beyond the city limits.
Of course, we could have Jay set this up as a
vote...Buffy meets Survivor... Who would each
character vote off their island?
- Darby, looking for a spin-off involving a debonair,
kickass demon biologist (either way that plays)...
[> [>
Sunnydale kk-boommmmmm!! -- Helen, 06:40:35
11/25/02 Mon
That's it! End of the dale - perfect. It kinda fits in
with Buffy's escalation of destruction:
Film: High School gym
Series 3: entire High School
there's really nowhere else left for it to go.
[> [>
Uh-huh. Rob? -- KdS, 07:19:56 11/25/02 Mon
Hmmm. Hadn't thought of the financial/commercial
issues.
Rob, I know you're a Xena fan. Are people actually
boycotting all mechandise etc because of the ending, and
would people have been more positive if the character had
ended up dead but the ending was handled better?
[> [> [>
Re: Uh-huh. Rob? -- Rob, 08:06:54 11/25/02
Mon
There was a large contingency of Xena fans who did boycott
Xena merchandise and conventions afterwards, going even so
far as to refuse to ever spend money on another item by the
same production company, or on any other project Lucy
Lawless would ever do. That last part was pretty unfair,
IMO, since she didn't write the darn scripts. It was my
understanding that this was mostly centered around the
lesbian faction of the fans (not that all of them boycotted,
just the majority of the boycotters, I believe, were the
lesbian fans) who were hurt that they would not allow Xena
and Gabrielle to be happy together. The felt that the "kiss"
between Xena and Gabrielle in the last episode was just
adding insult to injury, implying that two women could not
have a healthy relationship, unless one of them ends up
dead, and the other is left to mourn her, and talk to her
ghost, for the rest of her life.
Therefore, I think it's the death that pissed people off
more than just the way it was handled, although it was
handled rather insensitively. True, on the whole, people
didn't complain as much about Buffy's death in "The Gift,"
which was handled not only sensitively but beautifully. But
we knew, going into that, that it wasn't the last episode.
That Buffy would, somehow, in some form, be back. When it's
the last episode, it can be very different. In the case of
"Xena," any death would have angered fans who wanted their
heroes, after all the turmoil they've been through, to
finally end up peaceful, happy, in love, and together. It
was especially insulting to them that "Hercules" ended up
exactly that way for Hercules...and his MALE sidekick.
If Buffy were to die, I think Joss could make it work. I
think he could make anything work. Although I would question
the idea, especially since, whether it would make sense or
not, that this would be the death Buffy was taken out of in
"Bargaining," she still has died on the show before, and
that does lessen the impact for the last episode. Although
we know that thematically it might work, a viewer less
educated to the ways of the Buffyverse, or someone who just
takes the show at surface level and not read any depth or
symbolism in it may think, "She died before. What makes this
death so final?" That's also what many complained about from
Xena, who had died quite a few more times than Buffy.
I'm not saying the end has to be completely happy. This is
still "Buffy," but I think, for Joss to be able to maintain
the franchise, it would be smart for him to not kill off his
hero. The creators of "Xena" in interviews have said that
they grew sick and tired of the lesbian fan fiction, and of
internet fans trying to steal their creation, so they killed
her. Many fans (rightly so) took that as an attack on them.
Joss, however, welcomes gay/straight/whatever
interpretations of any character relationship on the show
(B.Y.O.Subtext), and if he killed Buffy, it would not be to
be cruel to the audience. But I still think that on the
whole, it might be perceived as unfair to the character,
especially after all the turmoil he put her through through
the years, and wrong to the audience, who want an ending
full of relief. I don't think the fans want to be mourning
their hero at the end of the last episode.
Rob
[> [> [> [>
Thanks -- KdS, 08:17:05 11/25/02 Mon
Very well explained.
(KdS sneaking off to consider his own morbidity)
[> [> [> [>
A possible interpretation: "They won't kill Buffy
a third time & I'll tell you why.." (speccy) --
ZachsMind, 10:00:59 11/25/02 Mon
Why? We're expecting it. Why would they possibly kill her
off AGAIN after doing it twice, with all the talk that SMG
isn't coming back? If anything, they're setting us up to
THINK they're gonna kill her off when instead they'll do the
exact opposite. At the end of season seven, Buffy will still
be alive. She will walk into the sunset. Probably alone.
Like a good little white hat. We may or may not ever see her
again.
Heck. They might even play "Happy Trails" in the background
as she goes. Maybe she'll be riding a horse.
Before that final moment, they'll do far worse than kill
her. They'll strip her of her friends. They'll strip her of
her powers. They'll shred her of her dignity. They'll make
her feel guilty for everything that's happened in the last
seven years, as if there was anything more she could
possibly do to prevent all the badness that's transpired.
They'll take away everything that makes Buffy Buffy and make
her wish she were dead. By the end of season seven they will
do everything but rend the skin off her flesh. Heck, they
may do that too. The evil in the world will make her feel
like it's all her fault, and she'll carry the burden like
Atlas. Then she'll shrug.
Actually, come to think of it that's the worst they can
possibly do to the character -- the writers can find some
way to have the powers of the Slayer removed from Buffy
completely, so that in the end of season seven she has to go
up against the Big Bad Whatever without any powers
whatsoever.
I bet most people won't see THAT coming, and it'd give Sarah
Michelle Gellar a lot of great opportunity to show she's a
movie-ready superstar. Think "Thelma & Louise meets Diehard"
to the tenth power.
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: A possible interpretation: "They won't kill
Buffy a third time & I'll tell you why.." (speccy)
-- Dochawk, 21:26:33 11/25/02 Mon
I happen to agree there is no chance they will kill Buffy
this year, but she may end the series losing her slayer
power. But, now that Angel will end after Buffy imagine
this scenario: After defeating their own Big Bad, Buffy goes
to LA to help AI. She finds the battle already started and
can't tell AI that she is there. During the battle AI is
aware of another power fighting with them. After the battle
they go looking for it and find Buffy's dead body. It would
be the epitome of a warrior's death and talk about
unexpected, killing her on a show that's not even hers!
[> [> [> [> [> [>
Re: A possible interpretation: "They won't kill
Buffy a third time & I'll tell you why.." (speccy)
-- Juliet, 14:06:38 11/26/02 Tue
That's always been my theory of how Buffy will finally bite
it: on Angel or another spin-off.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [>
No. Way. In. H-E-Double Hockeysticks. -- cjl,
14:19:24 11/26/02 Tue
Rant. Incoming!
The idea of a modern American icon buying it OFFSCREEN on
SOMEBODY ELSE'S series would be a slap in the face to
devoted Buffyphiles. If SMG bows out after this season, I
would blow a gasket if Angel staggers in from his
apocalyptic battle at the end of S4 and TELLS us about Buffy
dying. If the Slayer is going to go out, I want the girl
front and center and ready for her close-up...
[> [>
Re: Practicalities and the death pool. --
ZachsMind, 07:52:41 11/25/02 Mon
1. If they do a feature film it'll be with an entirely new
cast. A younger cast, and geared towards a younger
generation. Don't count on this happening for at least
another five or ten years. Not successfully anyway.
2. Spin-offs: They could opt to tell the story of Giles even
if they kill him off in the Buffy Universe. Either by making
stories told for BBC America in "Ripper" done pre Buffy
season seven, or just disregard the Buffy timeline
altogether. They *could* but it's doubtful. I'd bet they
don't kill off Giles, but they're probably gonna make us
think he's dead at least for part of the season.
3. Non-canonical stuff like books & comics don't factor in
much to the creativity of the actual tv series. They'll just
have to work around whatever's done on the series, and with
the added creativity of being outside canon, the comics
could even bring Tara back in a kinda Phoenix-esque way if
they so desire.
However for the most part I agree with your guesses. Anya,
Riley, and Faith are almost certain to die. We already know
they're willing to kill off Jonathan, who's been with the
show as long as anyone. Andrew's gonna die eventually. I
think that's a given. Dawn's expendable (as much as I like
her, very few others do). I think Willow, Giles, Xander &
Spike may be the only real survivors by season's end.
And yeah. Sunnydale's gonna be a crater. I'll be
disappointed if Sunnydale's anything other than a crater by
season's end.
Completely off topic. Did anyone else notice in the scene at
the start of "Sleeper" when Willow confronts Dawnie, that
she didn't come out and say who visited her? I think that
scene was filmed BEFORE the Willow/Cassie scenes we saw in
CwDP. I don't think the writers even knew whether or not
Tara was going to make an appearance in that scene at the
time they did the scene between Willow & Dawnie.
[> [> [>
Ummm.... Darby? Zach? -- KdS, 08:11:03 11/25/02
Mon
Do you know Riley's turning up again or are you just
guessing?
[> [> [> [>
*feigns innocent look and whistles an irish folk tune
conspicuously* -- ZachsMind, 09:04:17 11/25/02
Mon
[> [> [> [>
Total guess. (Well-known casting spoiler) --
Darby, 10:01:09 11/25/02 Mon
I am spoiled about Eliza's return (I'm thinking everybody is
by now), but I was just speculating on what "core" members
could be done away with.
And Zach, the options you mentioned had occurred to me, but
I don't see them as viable, or at least not as viable as
using your original cast (see X-Files minus David).
[> [> [> [> [>
X-Files minus David didn't work though. --
ZachsMind, 10:04:32 11/25/02 Mon
[> [> [>
Re: Practicalities and the death pool. (spoilerish for
BtVS 7.7 & 7.8) -- Liv, 11:58:00 11/25/02 Mon
Hi! I'm newish and haven't gone through all the threads yet.
Sorry if i'm covering well-tread territory. :)
About the Willow/Dawn tangent: I hadn't considered that
possibility. I was just thinking that it was telling that no
one really revealed any details to eachother about what they
saw and what they were told that night. They all chose to
omit certain information for their own reasons. Since Buffy
is all Dawn has --HANK! WHERE ARE TOU?!-- she isn't willing
to spill the beans till she sorts out her *mother's*
message; Willow may have been reluctant to mention that
Cassie was the one who delivered her message because she
thought Dawn might have been through enough, but she also
didn't share what the message WAS since she's not entirely
convinced that the BBW was lying; and all Buffy shared about
her therapy session with Holden was the revelation that
Spike was his sire. All inferiority complexes about
superiority complexes swept under the rug.
It seems to me that the less they communicate the more
vulnerable they are the manipulations from the BBW (we ain't
seen nothin' yet)... that they are, in fact, their own worst
enemies.
Oooohh... that was rambly...
[>
Death Pool preliminary odds breakdown (speccy
spoilery) -- ZachsMind, 07:18:20 11/25/02 Mon
Buffy's already died twice. Third time's the charm? Or is it
literally overkill? Been there done that? I say things could
go either way with her, but there's a few other factors to
consider.
First of all, we have an idea who's on contract and who's
not. While this does not insure who should stay and who
should go, it does help to give a basis for the odds
breakdown. Emma Caulfield, Sarah Michelle Gellar and Anthony
Stewart Head all have an open-ended contract that's up this
year. ASH's seems to be very broad right now. He's not been
an official regular member for two or three years. So based
on this alone I'd give even odds that any of the characters
played by these actors will survive or die. However, James
Marsters, Alyson Hannigan and Nicholas Brendan each have
contracts that can go another three years yet. So IF there
is to be a future series after season seven, the writers
will want these characters kept alive and relatively intact
by season's end. Michelle Trachtenberg (Dawnie) is the Wild
Card.
But also keep in mind the potential for characters after
season seven outside BtVS. Whedon may want to keep his
options open for allowing characters to show up Angel next
year, and there's still "Ripper" for the BBC. This increases
the odds that Giles won't die. It decreases the odds that
Dawn will survive, because what would Dawn do in the Angel
universe? Angel's never technically met Dawnie. He may or
may not have memories of her. Depends on how complete the
monks' were in their job of putting Dawnie into Buffy's
reality. It'd be too confusing to bother with from the M.E.
writer's perspective.
Now, Xander & Willow have been with the series from the very
beginning. So killing Buffy off AND killing off these two
would make the idea of a franchise impossible. It'd be like
having a Baskin Robbins without any ice cream cones. And
Spike is simply too popular to kill.
Who will die? I'd break it down like this:
BUFFY: even odds
ANYA: even odds
DAWN: 3 to 1 she dies
GILES: 5 to 1 he dies
XANDER: 10 to 1 he dies
WILLOW: 15 to 1 she dies
SPIKE: 20 to 1 he dies
However, there's one character not in the regular mix who
HAS to die at some point. FAITH. they're bringing in Slayers
In Training and for one of those S.I.T.'s to become the NEXT
Slayer, Faith has to kick the bucket. So if you wanna bet
money on a sure thing? Put your money on Faith in the Death
Pool.
...Unless of course Eliza Dushku has an agent that convinces
her to sign on the dotted line as the replacement for SMG in
season eight. If that happens, all bets are off.
[> [>
Re: Death Pool preliminary odds breakdown - Not
Faith -- Angelina, 13:29:35 11/25/02 Mon
IF they are dumb enough to kill Buffy off, then the ONLY one
I can see as the new slayer would be Faith. A "redeemed"
Faith would make the perfect Slayer. And when I say
redeemed, I don't mean so much so, that she is completely
devoid of her badgirlness. She is just NOT psychopathic.
Eliza is a fantastic actress and has terrific charisma. I
just love her and if SMG has to go (sniff sniff bawl bawl),
then I'd LOVE to see Faith hook up with Spike. What a team!
I guess it all depends on Eliza's movie career and how its
progressing. A few years as the star of a popular TV series
can't hurt her career right now! What's your opinion?
[> [> [>
Re: Death Pool preliminary odds breakdown: My
predictions -- belle, 20:18:00 11/25/02 Mon
They won't kill Buffy again, but they might do something
else to remove her permanently from the "mortal coil."
(Dunno what). I still think she'll be BAD at some point
this season.
I don't believe they'll kill Dawn. Even if you don't like
her, think she's expendable, and so on, it's just too
depressing a message: kill the next generation? No hope for
the future? No, I don't think ME'll go that route. That's
not just dark: it's...well, it's too much like current
politics, for one thing (!) Nihilistic, that's the word I'm
looking for. They've never been that, not really. Plus,
she seems to be getting rather interesting; I think she'll
have spin-off/movie potential.
Willow they won't kill, unless they kill absolutely
everybody (and they won't, I don't think--again, too
nihilistic). Above all else they won't Kill the Lesbian
again. (and quite, right, too, she editorializes). Their
ears are still ringing from last year. Plus, with Xena
gone, there's a big market for a supernatural series with a
sexy, smart, basically-good-but-with-a-dark-side lesbian in
the lead! I know I'd be all over it. Also, everyone loves
AH--fans and writers alike, and she loves working with
them.
Spike has all the makings of a tragic/heroic death. It's
just possible that they'll find something else for him, but
I highly doubt it'll be an unmitigated happy ending,
whatever it is. And I don't think he'll end as the old bad
Spike again, either; that's a closed door. We'll see. (The
only reason I can think for *not* killing him is the acting
wonder that is JM, which is certainly something ME has
considered).
Xander? Could go either way at this point. I could make a
case for his foreshadowing as a sacrifical Christ figure,
but Spike seems to have usurped Xander's role in most
regards these past two seasons, possibly including that one.
Anyway, he already had his Christ moment last year. I could
see him either as martyr or witness. I don't think he'll be
evil. I think he'll be the one character that never turns
evil.
Anya's probably toast, since it would a) give her character
some meaning, closure, and atonement and b) let EC go out
with a bang, but you never can tell for sure.
Faith they'll probably keep around. Everyone (meaning the
writers) likes her too much to kill, and her character's got
loads of potential.
And Giles? It's too painful. At first I was positive that
Sleeper's ending was a cheap sweeps stunt (which it is),
but...I dunno. The more I think about it, the more worried
I get. They might just be evil enough to do it, and, more
to the point, clever enough to make it work, storywise. I
didn't see how they could, but plausible scenarios are
beginning to present themselves. (Go away, scenarios!) And
yeah, they could potentially even make "Ripper" work with
him dead. But oh, the prospect makes me cringe. Maybe
that's a sign that they *should* do that storyline? -
whimper.-
Andrew, poor little Harmony-esque Bambi villain that he is,
is almost certainly toast. Probably soon. But not before
we get some good laughs and a little pathos out of him.
For sure, though, they'll never kill Tara. I said it last
year, and...Oh, wait.
[> [>
Seriously doubt Dawn will die. -- HonorH,
20:36:14 11/25/02 Mon
Especially if Buffy lives. Dawn's far too important to
Buffy to kill off while Buffy still lives. Furthermore,
she's the one Buffy's sacrificed everything for--her
schooling, her time, her life, and, yes, her death. When
Buffy came back, it was Dawn who persuaded her to stay,
repeatedly. To kill Dawn after all that would make all
Buffy's sacrifices pointless. So Dawn will live.
[> [> [>
But will she whine? -- Darby, scurrying back out of
the line of fire., 11:00:30 11/26/02 Tue
[> [> [> [>
My Spec -- Finn Mac Cool, 11:54:43 11/26/02
Tue
The Shapeshifter will eventually transform to look like Dawn
and do a whining routine so fierce that people realize how
non-whiny Dawn really is.
[> [> [> [>
GAAAAAAAAHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! -- HonorH (going
after Darby with Honorificus' favorite axe), 16:22:54
11/26/02 Tue
[>
I have a bad feeling about...(spec) -- Rob,
08:20:17 11/25/02 Mon
...Anya. I have a gut feeling that they are going to kill
her, and she is finally going to atone by giving away her
life to save others, which was denied her in "Selfless."
I've never felt so strong about a prediction I've had for
the show. Anya's my favorite character who isn't Buffy...I
really hope I'm wrong. But there it is.
Rob
[>
Re: The great Sunnydale death pool! (Two very well
known casting spoilers, no actual future events) --
skpe, 09:00:33 11/25/02 Mon
I remember the last time this topic came up that the general
consensus was Buffydamurung
[>
I take your point -- Rahael, 10:31:50 11/25/02
Mon
about natural death being a good on Sunnydale.
A bit like Cassie, no?
However, they've been here before the Gift. They have to
make it as moving and as triumphant as they did before.
Now, of all the people who could do it, I'd say it would be
Joss, but Joss rarely repeats a storyline to give exactly
the same message - it usually resonates with and plays
against the earlier theme.
And, the whole point of Season 6 was getting Buffy away from
looking back at heaven, and forward to life, and making the
best of it. Now, all those things suggest that in thematic
terms, she can't die, because it would undo S6 (not that
everyone would complain about that, it seems!) but.....I'm
totally intrigued and have no idea what's actually going to
happen.
And in the end, I'll probably end up admiring whatever they
pull out of the hat.
OT: Site I found on different states of consciousness and
mental being -- fearshade,
06:29:02 11/25/02 Mon
http://www.imprint-
academic.demon.co.uk/SPECIAL/06_06.html
Being a short-story writer, and somewhat of an introvert ;),
I tend to enjoy trying to understand what's going on in a
person's head, partly to help me make sense of what's going
on in mine, so I came across this site. It's quite
interesting and so I thought I'd share with everyone
else.
End of the Underworld (Spoilers through Sleeper) --
Valkyrie, 12:00:55 11/25/02 Mon
I've been trying to stay spoiler free (not very
successfully) but that necessitates reviewing previous
episodes endlessly. One line from last week's episode struck
me today. All summer, we've assumed that Spike went to
Africa to get his soul. However, in "Sleeper" he clearly
says something like "I went to the end of the underworld and
back to get my soul." I'm sorry if I missed a discussion
about this elsewhere, but thinking about that line certainly
has me wondering where Spike has been since last spring and
wondering what it means in relation to current episodes. Any
thought on this? Surely going to the underworld is a more
ominous journey than going to Africa.
minor thoughts: souls and lies (7.7 and 7.8) -- Clen,
12:19:11 11/25/02 Mon
Some minor musings of mine, before I take the next two weeks
to wrap up my semester...
The BB certainly lied lied in its manifestation to Willow,
and the verdict is not in yet on Dawn, but at least the BB
came clean at the end. The only blatant lies and omissions
still hanging in the air are those owned by the SG who had a
7.7 encounter.
When Willow related her encounter to Dawn, she left out that
it was Cassie. Willow knows that Dawn took Cassie's death a
little personally (at least at the time).
Dawn left out the final prophecy of "Joyce".
Buffy left out about 90% of her experience with Holden. Sad
that she should experience a bit of a breakthrough, then
keep it to herself.
Maybe the greatest accomplishment of the BB so far is that
it has them lying to each other.
On a completely unrelated topic, it occurs to me that
Spike's chip is now useless. I don't just mean being
hypnotized past it. With a soul now, Spike feels guilt. He
runs perilously close to the possibility that he might
decide he NEEDS to be punished for his actions. The quickest
source of punishment at hand is chip-pain. We have already
seen a few instances now where he invoked chip-pain without
it being a case of self-defense: he tackled Home Improvement
in Help, socked Xander in the mouth in Sleeper. Pain seems
not so much a deterrent now as his lot in life. He deserves
to suffer for what he did, so he must make himself suffer.
The only wall holding him back is that he doesn't want other
people (especially Buffy) to suffer. But he runs the same
risk of a loop of behavior that the obese sometimes do: they
feel bad about eating, they eat because they resolve that
they are bad, then feel bad about what they ate, etc. If
Spike becomes convinced that he is a bad dog, he might seek
out punishment by replicating his bad behavior. In this
circumstance, it would be rather easy for the BB to further
manipulate him. I say either the chip or the soul must go.
Either the guilt must go, or the source of immediate
gratification for the guilt.
What did Spike really get in Season seven -- Cougar,
13:02:04 11/25/02 Mon
What did Spike actually recieve when he got his "soul"?
Before he got his soul he could be seen as a metaphore for
arrested development, as vampires are. He was very
insightful into feelings of others but was impulsive, self
serving and self indulgent. After being chipped a certain
order or discipline was imposed on him externally. He began
to change and develop from that point. He redirected his
energies to demon fighting, self serving yes, but
sublimating his passions as we all do.
He did however have some conscience. He felt empathy towards
Buffy in Fool for Love. His impulse was to shoot her but his
heart was touched when he saw her vulnerable. He chose
control of self and redirecting his anger into a more mature
respnse of empathy.
Later, through the series he often acted to please Buffy,
who was an additional source of external order, expectations
and discipline.
But after Buffy died we saw Spike caring for Dawn, tring to
redeem his failure. Who was he expecting to thank him for
that? By then he had obviously internalized some of the
restraints and motivations that had been imposed on him
previously.
Then we there was the rape scene. Obviously his emotions
were heightened and his impulse control was still imature
and he regressed to major impulsivity. He immeadiately felt
shame and remorse and actually took drastic and impulsive
actions to get a soul. Maybe he feared that now that he had
alienated Buffy, a ateadying influece on his life was
lost.
He went looking for that soul already able to feel love,
guilt, protectivness, shame. He was looking to discipline
the part of himself that he could't control. What did he
really need a soul for? People with souls rape and murder
all the time. When he asked for his soul he appeared angry,
What could the underworld place in such a body?
If the soul is good, would it come from the underworld? Anya
said "what did you do?" rather than a more typicaly blunt
statement like "oh my God Spike, you have a soul!"
In terms of human development we actually go through stages
of adulthood. Spiritual and psychological development can
accelerate at certain points. Sometimes this leads to
painful confusion and people seek solutions in gurus and
cults, giving over control to an external force that will
keep there souls in line.
So far the soul seems to have brought Spike only pain. Is
that all a soul is? No forgiveness or peace? If a soul is so
good and important then what did he actully recieve? Was it
a compete and untainted soul? Was some power or deity
offended by what was put in him and where that soul was
taken from?
Dawn said "Chip, soul, same diff" she had a point. He was
far from perfect before but he had actully been growing up.
He was trying to restart his arrested develpment. He wanted
the process of internalization to be over. But getting the
soul was maybe an impulsive quick fix that really led him to
trouble.
Did Spike get a "Good Soul"?
[>
Re: What did Spike really get in Season seven --
Angelina, 13:39:55 11/25/02 Mon
It is my understanding that he got his own soul back. The
Demon in The Cave said "We restore your soul". He received
the soul that was William before Dru vamped him.
[>
Re: What did Spike really get in Season seven --
Retread, 14:00:37 11/25/02 Mon
"So far the soul seems to have brought Spike only pain. Is
that all a soul is? No forgiveness or peace? If a soul is so
good and important then what did he actully recieve? Was it
a compete and untainted soul?"
More and more I'm thinking that Morphy, or whatever is
controlling Spike, is more responsible for his pain and
craziness than his soul. Or atleast its much harder to tell
when its his soul and *not* Morphy causing his turmoil.
"Was some power or deity offended by what was put in him and
where that soul was taken from?"
Hadn't thought of this in quite this way but it makes sense
that returning Spike's soul upset the balance somewhere.
Once William was vamped, his soul could be counted firmly on
the side of Good (presuming as I do that William's life
wasn't evil enough to send his soul to hell). Well Good lost
when William's soul was put back into Spike and is now
uncertain to getting to re-claim that particular soul. This
ought to make it (Good) less than happy. Hmm, wonder if this
will be addressed sometime this season?
[>
Re: What did Spike really get in Season seven -- leslie,
14:19:00 11/25/02 Mon
In practical terms, it seems that "Spike" got reconnected to
"William," who had been ousted by vampirization. Remember
the often-repeated mantra that vampires are *not* the humans
they used to be; they merely retain that human's memories.
Spike was able to remember being William, but it seems that
now he can *feel* being William again.
The Real Secret Truth about Buffy Summers (Spoilery
through 7.8, heavy spec) -- Just George, 13:08:29
11/25/02 Mon
Lets assume that the young women we've seen knifed by the
Guys In Robes (GIR) are Slayers In Training (SIT). What do
you think the Council of Watchers (COW) tells the SIT about
Buffy? That she's the most successful Slayer in Generations?
That she "saved the world a lot"? I doubt it.
As far as the Council is concerned, Buffy is an unruly girl
who has abandoned tradition and upset the natural order of
things. The Council probably uses Buffy's story as a
cautionary tale to get the SIT to eat their beets and do as
they are told. I suspect the council tells Buffy's story
something like this:
"Buffy Summers was called as a Slayer in Los Angeles. Her
watcher was Merrick. But he was killed by a vampire that
Buffy couldn't stake.
"Buffy moved to Sunnydale to be close to the Hellmouth.
Rupert Giles was her watcher. Buffy resented Giles' rules
and ultimately attacked him. Without her watcher, Buffy was
killed by a vampire called The Master.
"When Buffy died Kendra was called. Buffy was un-naturally
brought back to life above the Hellmouth.
"Buffy spared the mad vampire Angelus because she had been
sleeping with him. Angelus tried to suck the world into a
hell dimension. Kendra came to Sunnydale to stop him. But
Buffy let Kendra get killed by Angelus' partner Drucilla.
Buffy teamed up with the vampire William the Bloody to
attack Angelus. Buffy and William were both mad that Angelus
was with Drucilla. Buffy sent Angelus to a hell dimension as
punishment.
"When Kendra died Faith was called. Her watcher was killed
by a powerful vampire called Kakistos. Faith went to Buffy
for help. But Buffy was jealous of Faith. The council even
sent a second watcher to try and help them work together.
But Buffy severed ties with the council and kicked her new
watcher out of Sunnydale.
"Buffy was very mean to Faith. Buffy ultimately knifed Faith
and knocked her off a building, putting Faith into a coma.
When Faith recovered eight months later, Buffy fought her
again. Buffy chased Faith all the way to Los Angeles. She
turned Faith over the police. Faith sits in jail to this
day.
"With Faith in jail, the council tried to help Buffy again.
But Buffy rejected their help and demanded to run things her
own way. Soon after, Buffy died falling off a tall
building.
"Buffy was brought back to life again near the Hellmouth
with powerful black magic. By now she was so corrupt that
Mr. Giles was driven from Sunnydale.
"Buffy began sleeping with her old vampire ally, William the
Bloody. She attacked her friends and let them be killed by
her enemies. Because she'd slept with William, Buffy let the
vampire live even after he'd killed nearly a dozen
people.
"Buffy Summers is still at large. She is powerful and very
dangerous. Notify your Watcher if you spot her. Approach
only with extreme caution."
Or do you think I'm being too hard on the COW?
-JG
[>
Re: Now that's funny - Thanks -- Brian, 13:34:33
11/25/02 Mon
[>
Re: The Real Secret Truth about Buffy Summers (Spoilery
through 7.8, heavy spec) -- leslie,
14:14:04 11/25/02 Mon
Well, the CoW seem to be kind of overlooking a certain
Slayer's unholy alliance with the demon-wannabe Mayor
Wilkins, but what do we expect from them? Frankly, I think
they would be putting a LOT more of the blame on Giles--he
was in charge, and she went completely off the rails. He
didn't even give her the Slayer's Handbook! How could she be
expected to be a proper slayer without the handbook, I ask
you?
But honestly, I think they're just completely ignoring her
existence. She died; as far as they're concerned, she's
still underground.
[> [>
Re: The Real Secret Truth about Buffy Summers (Spoilery
through 7.8, heavy spec) -- Just George, 15:04:44
11/25/02 Mon
leslie: "Well, the CoW seem to be kind of overlooking a
certain Slayer's unholy alliance with the demon-wannabe
Mayor Wilkins, but what do we expect from them?"
The COW probably blames Buffy for what happened to Faith.
She was mean to her, remember.
leslie: "Frankly, I think they would be putting a LOT more
of the blame on Giles--he was in charge, and she went
completely off the rails. He didn't even give her the
Slayer's Handbook! How could she be expected to be a proper
slayer without the handbook, I ask you?"
Between the Watchers, I'm sure they blame Giles. However,
when talking to the SIT, they always put the organization in
the best possible light. Watchers good. Unruly Slayers
bad.
leslie: "But honestly, I think they're just completely
ignoring her existence. She died; as far as they're
concerned, she's still underground."
I suspect you're right. But, given what's been happening to
the SIT, that would be a mistake.
-JG
[> [> [>
Re: The Real Secret Truth about Buffy Summers (Spoilery
through 7.8, heavy spec) -- leslie,
17:30:48 11/25/02 Mon
"But, given what's been happening to the SIT, that would be
a mistake."
But, isn't "mistake" the CoW's middle name?
[> [> [> [>
Re: The Real Secret Truth about Buffy Summers (Spoilery
through 7.8, heavy spec) -- Just George, 19:05:09
11/25/02 Mon
leslie: "But, isn't "mistake" the CoW's middle name?"
I thought it was "of".
-JG
[> [>
I didn't think they knew Buffy had been dead .... -
- Helen, 01:22:53 11/26/02 Tue
I didnt think anyone knew apart from the Scoobies. The
intention (from Giles' perspective) was to use the Buffybot
as Buffy, and from Willow's, to bring her back so no one
would have to know she had ever been underground.
[> [> [>
Re: I didn't think they knew Buffy had been dead ....
(spoilers through 7.8) -- Just George, 13:26:47
11/26/02 Tue
Helen: "I didn't think they knew Buffy had been dead
....
"I didn't think anyone knew apart from the Scoobies. The
intention (from Giles' perspective) was to use the Buffybot
as Buffy, and from Willow's, to bring her back so no one
would have to know she had ever been underground."
I agree that the COW weren't supposed to find out that Buffy
took the big header. But they are an organization that is
dedicated to gathering intelligence, especially about
Slayers. It makes sense that they could have found out about
Buffy's death from a third party. Also, the COW probably
doesn't actually know about Buffy sleeping with Spike or
Spike's recent (BB induced) killing spree. But it is
possible for the COW to know about each. And both could be
"spun" to make Buffy look bad, so I included them.
-JG
[> [> [> [>
fair enough! Really enjoyed this by the way! :-) -
- Helen, 01:02:55 11/27/02 Wed
[>
Too hard on the COW? No, you're very astute. (speccy
spoilery) -- ZachsMind, 14:35:33 11/25/02 Mon
In fact, at one time I thought this was one of the more
probable ways things were going to go ultimately in season
seven. I was hoping the BBW would turn out to be the Council
itself, and by the end of the season we'd learn that though
Buffy thought she was herself the entire time, the Council &
other factors would make her question the actions she's made
over the last seven years. I thought ultimately the internal
AND external conflicts there would be really cool. However,
the 'battle' would be more of a psychological one, and not
fit for the overall feel of the series. Think "Weight of the
World" throughout the season. Only Buffy wouldn't be
comatose. She'd just be indecisive and we'd find out which
friends stood beside her in this troubled time, and which
friends would turn on her. Willow, Anya & Spike would go
through similar suffering, as they were put to the test and
made to stand irrevocably on the side of good or evil.
Ultimately a choice would have to be made and there'd be no
turning back without dire consequences. Ultimately though
this direction would have made the series even more dark and
unfunny than season six. Personally I wouldn't have minded
because I prefer it when the series goes dark and
disturbing. However, they were losing fans over season six &
if they kept going that direction, I'd probably be the only
one to watch the season seven finale.
It's kinda hard to take the Council seriously in the context
of this series. In a different show it would be a much more
powerful entity, but since season five it's been little more
than an annoyance, and prior to that it was mostly a joke.
Shame actually. There's a lot of potential there.
And I thought with Giles away from the gang and closer to
the Council, they'd have had a chance to convince him either
by sheer logic or through other means to go against Buffy.
From an objective distance, it does easily appear as you've
illustrated JustGeorge, that Buffy is at best a loose cannon
and at worst an emissary of evil. Giles would come back not
to help Buffy, but as the leading force to stop her in her
tracks and put her down once and for all. With the full
force of the Council behind him it would have been possible,
so in this scenario the Big Battle at the end would pit
Slayer against Watcher, both thinking the other had lost
their mind.
But instead we got a chamelion ghost, all pomp &
circumstance with no substance, whose best laid plans seem
little more than retreads of Spike & Adam's S.4 plan in "the
Yoko Factor" with shades of "Empire Strikes Back" thrown in
for good measure. So far it's been interesting, but not drop
dead "oh my gawd" amazing.
I'm beginning to wonder if an enemy you can't punch is just
a cop-out.
[> [>
Re: Too hard on the COW? No, you're very astute.
(speccy spoilery) -- Just George, 15:27:07 11/25/02
Mon
ZachsMind: "It's kinda hard to take the Council seriously in
the context of this series. In a different show it would be
a much more powerful entity, but since season five it's been
little more than an annoyance, and prior to that it was
mostly a joke. Shame actually. There's a lot of potential
there."
I agree, the council still has story potential. I hope we
see Quinten again, if only to get some closure. Not for
Buffy. She already had her showdown and won. For Giles.
ZachsMind: "And I thought with Giles away from the gang and
closer to the Council, they'd have had a chance to convince
him either by sheer logic or through other means to go
against Buffy. From an objective distance, it does easily
appear as you've illustrated JustGeorge, that Buffy is at
best a loose cannon and at worst an emissary of evil."
I'm not sure it would be completely credible to turn Giles
against Buffy. He was there for 6 years. He saw the good
that Buffy did and what she went through to do it. But the
SIT haven't seen either. They would be vulnerable to the Big
Lie. As the old saying goes, "Give me your children for 5
years and they are mine forever."
ZachsMind: "But instead we got a chamelion ghost, all pomp &
circumstance with no substance, whose best laid plans seem
little more than retreads of Spike & Adam's S.4 plan in "the
Yoko Factor" with shades of "Empire Strikes Back" thrown in
for good measure. So far it's been interesting, but not drop
dead "oh my gawd" amazing.
"I'm beginning to wonder if an enemy you can't punch is just
a cop-out."
Not to me. I like the story so far. I want to know more
about what the Big Bad can do. But I'm willing to wait. When
ME introduces the Big Bad this early in the season they need
to keep an air of mystery for a while. For now, the Scoobies
will have to defend their heads. Later they will have to
defend their tender bodies.
-JG
[>
A perfect summation of the situation re Ms. Summers
-- KdS (Education Officer, CoW European Division),
06:36:24 11/26/02 Tue
But I think that you underestimate the depth of Buffy's
depravity regarding poor Faith.
How about:
"Faith came to Sunnydale to seek Buffy's help. But Buffy
and Angelus were working for the black magician who ruled
the town. When Faith began to suspect them they framed her
for their own crimes, corrupted her new Watcher Mr. Wyndham-
Pryce, and finally tried to kill her. We sent a commando
group to try to aid Faith when she recovered, but Buffy
chased Faith to Los Angeles and teamed up with Angelus and
Wyndham-Pryce again to kill Faith's rescuers. Buffy and
Angelus persuaded a notorious law firm to have Faith
wrongfully jailed, so effectively that we can't get her out
without drawing too much attention."
[> [>
Yes, but what about Ms. Gwendolyn Post? -- fearshade,
07:23:55 11/26/02 Tue
[> [>
Re: A perfect summation of the situation re Ms.
Summers -- Just George, 13:42:06 11/26/02 Tue
KdS (Education Officer, CoW European Division): "Faith came
to Sunnydale to seek Buffy's help. But Buffy and Angelus
were working for the black magician who ruled the town. When
Faith began to suspect them they framed her for their own
crimes, corrupted her new Watcher Mr. Wyndham-Pryce, and
finally tried to kill her. We sent a commando group to try
to aid Faith when she recovered, but Buffy chased Faith to
Los Angeles and teamed up with Angelus and Wyndham-Pryce
again to kill Faith's rescuers. Buffy and Angelus persuaded
a notorious law firm to have Faith wrongfully jailed, so
effectively that we can't get her out without drawing too
much attention."
Thank you KdS. It is good to see that the COW Education
Group is on the job.
I had limited my "spin" to things I could prove were
true:
* Buffy was jealous of Faith (see Faith, Hope, & Trick)
* Buffy did severed ties with the council. (see Graduation
Day)
* Buffy was very mean to Faith (especially after Faith
attacked Angel in Graduation Day).
* Buffy did knife Faith and knocked her off a building,
putting Faith in a coma. (see Graduation Day)
* Buffy did fight Faith when after Faith recovered (see This
Year's Girl)
* Buffy did chased Faith to Los Angeles. (see Sanctuary)
* Buffy was the one that suggested Faith should go to jail
for her crimes. (see Sanctuary)
However, if the COW decides to go from spin into full
fledged disinformation, then I think your presentation is
even more damning than mine.
-JG
Link to Wildfeeds on the Trollop Backup Board --
Rufus, 15:46:25 11/25/02 Mon
Conversebuffyverse
Spoiler Trollops
[>
Uh, Rufus? -- Masq, 16:13:11 11/25/02 Mon
Not that I go over to the Spoiler Trollop board and read or
anything, but the few times I've clicked on the link to see
how that board is doing, it doesn't load, or it takes
forever to load. I think it has to do with a graphic that
goes with the text you have at the top of the threads?
Just doing my part to support Trollopism as a seperate-but-
equally-valid Buffyverse lifestyle : )
[> [>
Hmmm -- Tchaikovsky, 16:20:46 11/25/02 Mon
Masq!
You've (accidentally!/with incredible empathy) clicked on
the trollop board links? Take it back- before I lose my
faith!
As far as I'm concerned, the trollop board works perfectly
well.
I just wish more people like Masq would give in to
temptation.
TCH
[> [> [>
I really don't read it. But I do feel a little
responsible for it -- Masq, 16:40:34 11/25/02 Mon
as the board mistress.
Believe me or don't. It's true.
[> [> [> [>
Rufus? I must concur with Masq... -- ZachsMind,
17:06:39 11/25/02 Mon
Not that I'm kissing her delicious butt or anything, but
when I click on the link to the Trollop board, it takes
forever to load, and when it does come up I don't see the
graphic.
I think I may have found the culprit. Dude, check your
tagging fields for the graphic. This is what I found when I
viewed source:
[IMG alt="ConverseBuffyverse Spoiler Board"
src="VoyForums ConverseBuffyverse Spoiler Board_files/83370"
border=0]
There's no image in the source field. "VoyForums
ConverseBuffyverse Spoiler Board_files/83370" is not a
decent graphic file, so the browser spends too much time
searching the server for something that isn't even there. I
think if you doublecheck that you'll find Masq was right. AS
A SPOILER TROLLOP, it's in my personal interest to insure
that spoiler message boards and websites look their best =)
to encourage nonspoilers to turn to the dark side. *MUA-
HAHAHA!*
[> [> [> [> [>
Is that the voice of someone offering to help make the
Voy board look better? -- Rufus, 17:12:18 11/25/02
Mon
[> [> [> [> [> [>
I'll Never Tell. *smirk* -- ZachsMind, 17:15:42
11/25/02 Mon
[> [> [> [> [>
The Yahoo Group is working again, the Voy board is the
backup so I didn't spend any time on it. -- Rufus,
17:16:16 11/25/02 Mon
Do you have any suggestions on what could be done to get
that board working better? I have dsl so loading has never
been a problem for me when it comes to voy.
[> [> [> [> [> [>
Link to Closed Caption for Never Leave Me -- Rufus,
17:24:42 11/25/02 Mon
Trollop Group
[> [> [> [> [> [>
Re: The Yahoo Group is working again, the Voy board is
the backup so I didn't spend any time on it. --
Masquerade, 18:24:52 11/25/02 Mon
Fixing it, by removing that line of code preferably,
shouldn't be too hard. It would be nice to have a place
where Trollops can go who have issues with Yahoo groups.
Make it less spoilery here on the main board. Thanks!
[> [> [> [> [> [> [>
My tech support got home and fixed it......try and tell
me if it worked -- Rufus, 19:25:55 11/25/02 Mon
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
Works! Thanks! -- Masq, 19:45:04 11/25/02
Mon
she said with her fingers over her eyes!
[> [> [> [> [>
Hey! Rufus isn't a "dude"...Rufus is a
"chick"! -- dub (the other Vancouver-area
chick), 18:20:39 11/25/02 Mon
[> [> [> [> [> [>
OT - While we're outing people - is Sol a he or a
she? -- Sophie, who simply couldn't resist asking one
mo' time, 19:47:08 11/25/02 Mon
[> [> [> [> [> [> [>
Yes. -- OnM, 19:58:41 11/25/02 Mon
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
You are so cheeky........;) -- Rufus, button cute
chick, 20:02:43 11/25/02 Mon
[> [> [> [> [> [> [>
Give up, Sophie--no one is ever gonna tell! HA-ha-ha-ha-
ha-ha-ha!! -- Whipwoman, 20:04:07 11/25/02 Mon
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
Anybody guessed my sex yet? ;o) -- Rob, 21:38:58
11/25/02 Mon
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
No, we're still working on your gender. :) --
Sophist, 09:02:20 11/26/02 Tue
[> [>
According to The Futon Critic "Angel" is
moving to Wednsdays mid January -- Rufus, 17:37:51
11/25/02 Mon
http://www.thefutoncritic.com/cgi/gofuton.cgi?action=thisday
intv&id=20021125
this day in television - 11/25/02
by brian ford sullivan
bfs@thefutoncritic.com
PLEASE READ THIS FIRST: We got tons of e-mail asking about
why our ratings data sometimes differs from Zap2It.com's.
Find out why by clicking here.
late update: 'angel' moves to wednesdays
The debate is over: the WB has officially canceled "Birds of
Prey." More surprising however is its replacement: "Angel."
In a conference call designed to tout the network's November
sweeps growth, WB Entertainment President Jordan Levin
reported the news along with a host of changes for the Frog
network's Thursday and Sunday lineups.
Sundays: The reality series "High School Reunion," from "The
Bachelor" creator Mike Fleiss, will join the lineup on
January 5 at 9:00/8:00c in place of the now relocated
"Angel." Encores of the series will air Thursdays at
8:00/7:00c.
Mondays: No changes.
Tuesdays: No changes.
Wednesdays: Fourth-year series "Angel" will take over the
"Birds of Prey" slot in mid-January. Levin blamed "Prey's"
failure on not having a strong writing showrunner on board
to get the series on track creatively.
Thursdays: Encores of "High School Reunion" will take over
the 8:00/7:00c hour giving "Do Over" and "Family Affair"
pink slips. Both series had their runs cut significantly in
the past week to 15 episodes each. At 9:30/8:30c, the WB
will debut another reality series - "The Surreal Life,"
featuring a "Real World" of C-list celebrities. The series
debuts with back-to-back episodes (beginning at 9:00/8:00c)
on January 9. "The Jamie Kennedy Experiment" will then
resume on January 16 at 9:00/8:00c. The Frog network has
ordered two additional episodes of the comedy bringing its
season total to 24 episodes.
Fridays: No changes other than the WB has ordered two more
episodes of "Reba," bringing its season total to 24
episodes.
[>
Wow! on those wildfeeds! (no spoiler here though) -
- frisby, 17:24:06 11/25/02 Mon
I went to your site and read all of those wildfeeds about
tomorrow's epsidoe (Buffy 7.9) and all I can say is Wow
double wow and wow wow wow. If I were more articulate I
might say that I thought only to catch a small peak at the
opening but I really could not resist reading everything
that was available. Are these wildfeeds really real? They've
really seen the episode? I am at a loss for words. I also
feel like I've cheated somehow or other. Maybe I should have
stayed unspoiled? And when will episode 7.10 be
shown????????
[> [>
Episode 10 so far is January 14th -- Rufus,
17:30:34 11/25/02 Mon
Did you go to the Yahoo Group cause there are pictures as
well as the Closed Caption Transcript.
[> [> [>
January 14th??!!! No way! I can't last that long!
-- ponygirl making with the grumbling, 06:16:14 11/26/02
Tue
[> [> [>
I thought I heard January 7, to coincide with the
DVD. -- Rob, 09:01:09 11/26/02 Tue
[> [>
Re: Wow! on those wildfeeds! (no spoiler here
though) -- aliera, 17:34:06 11/25/02 Mon
frisby:
I might say that I thought only to catch a small peak at the
opening but I really could not resist reading everything
that was available. Are these wildfeeds really real? They've
really seen the episode? I am at a loss for words. I also
feel like I've cheated somehow or other. Maybe I should have
stayed unspoiled?"
Yessss...addictive too! And yes really real. At least so I
assume since I'm more on Willow's path this season...of
course, I'm behaving so I'm not sure what Willow's path is
or will be. Last season though! Very veiny. And lastly,
that's the critical question...would I have appreciated last
season more had I been surprised? Hard to say but it's where
I placed my money this year...I'll let you know, if I can
hold out!
[> [> [>
To spoil or not to spoil -- ponygirl, 09:07:46
11/26/02 Tue
That's always the question. And it is like an addiction,
knowing all that info is out there just a few clicks away...
But having done wildfeeds for more than a few episodes last
season, I have to say it's better without reading them. Of
course with my new satellite I can actually watch BtVS on
Monday night!! I feel very evil, yet privileged. It's
interesting though to see what gets left out of the
wildfeeds, obviously a lot of detail, but sometimes viewers
see what they want to see (very apt for this season) and
interpret scenes very differently. Can't compare to the
real thing in any sense.
And frisby, I agree with your wow and add a holy #$%&!
See? I am evil.
[> [> [> [>
Re: To spoil or not to spoil -- aliera, 10:09:38
11/26/02 Tue
Thanks! Er... um... what am I saying!
You're absolutely right... much harder to go back. (r-e-s-i-
s-t the pull of the dark side not-so--young aliera) I
actually got involved pretty innocently last year (no
honestly!).
I didn't get the WB and I was missing Buffy so I did a
search on ep guides, which of course brought up all sorts of
other goodies too. I actually do go out and get the
wildfeeds now...I just wait and print it off and read it
after the ep is over.
I'm really not much like you guys with these eps. I tend to
get so caught up in the people that I miss so much (oh yeah
there was that African death mask again...this type of stuff
is soooo not going to happen for me) Even with the dialogue
I miss some stuff so with the printoffs I reinforce and then
later I grab the transcript and read it over the weekend and
google on the good stuff like peoples' names and what not.
Then I'll print off the archives when they're done (thanks
D'H) and that's when I feel like I really get caught up on
all the stuff. One of the ways I feel different from folks
is inspite of my love for drawing I really don't have much
of a visual orientation...much more text oriented (although
to make it even odder I do love comics.) Hence the
appreciation for all the written stuff.
Now my son watches Buffy and Angel too (he's fifteen in a
week) and he knows about the wildfeed because I talked about
some of what I was up to last year (not everything not until
he at least knows what a firewall is)...so not only am I
fighting my own desire to be firmly spoiled but he is not
helping matters by trying to talk me into (tempt me) back to
the dark side again! And Angel thinks he has problems!
Multi generational spoilage.
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