November 2002
posts
The Seal -- Shinzon, 22:06:28 11/14/02 Thu
Okay somebody told me that the design of the seal was seen
on one of the books of the convenant that ruled pylea so is
this true?
[> Probably not. (spoilers) -- Apophis,
22:11:51 11/14/02 Thu
Some people think the ram's head indicates the involvement
of Wolfram and Hart (wolf, ram, and hart [archaic term for a
deer]), since in Pylea, some of the spell books had the
animal heads on them. This isn't the case. I have it on good
authority that the Sunnydale and LA apocalypses are two
seperate events. No lawfirm involvement in the 'dale.
We have a new record! (WARNING: boring, archive related
stuff) -- d'Herblay, 23:44:00 11/14/02 Thu
After deadly combat with our Voynok demon tonight, Masq was
finally able to come away with this week's downloaded
archives intact. It's my turn to archive this month, so I
sit down to index them, and the threads filed under "11-13"
just grow and grow. Thirty-one separate threads were
begun on November thirteenth. I scent a record in the
making, so I check the a
rchives; sure enough, the most threads ever started the
day after an episode of Buffy was twenty-eight on
March 13, 2002, the day after "Normal Again." (This was
a very unscientific survey: I worked under the assumption
that the day after a new episode of Buffy airs is the
day this board gets the most traffic; I don't have access to
the October 2002 archives, so no checking recent statistics;
I didn't even check all the episodes, just the ones I
thought were likely, and I am firm in my assumption that no
one really talks about Angel.) For comparison
purposes, we have 25 surviving threads that were started the
day after "Two to Go"/"Grave" aired, 20 from each of the
days after "Seeing Red" and "Villains," 19 from the day
after "Bargaining," 13 on the day after "The Gift," 12 after
"Lessons," and 11 each after "Afterlife" and "Once More with
Feeling."
So kudos to Drew and Jane for provoking such discussion, and
kudos to the ATPo denizens for continuing to think at a rate
that is now quantified as too much!
[> I'm not gonna say it. . . -- Finn Mac Cool,
04:29:59 11/15/02 Fri
But I've got a feeling that someone, somwhere on this board,
is going to chew you out for the Angel comment. Just giving
you fair warning.
[> [> 'Older' posters know he's just teasing
Masq. -- CW, 04:43:57 11/15/02 Fri
[> [> Re: I'm not gonna say it. . . -- Masq,
06:44:38 11/15/02 Fri
d'Horrible can just stay in his giddy little alterno-
universe where no one talks about Angel. In the mean time,
the rest of us will talk. And talk. And talk.
And d'Herb can just sit and do archives.
;-P
[> [> [> go, masq! i love the angel
threads... -- marie, 08:30:42 11/15/02 Fri
...reading them, that is, not writing them!
marie - still in a cast, ergo the lower case, though i can
just about manage a couple of exclamation marks, if needs
be!
[> [> [> [> marie!! -- Masq, 09:05:21
11/15/02 Fri
Good to hear from you! We've been missing you on the board!
Hope your recovery is proceeding a pace!
[> [> [> [> [> thank you, and happy
birthday, from me, too... -- marie, 17:53:28 11/15/02
Fri
...i can't tell you how much i've missed everyone, board-
wise and trollop-wise - it'll take foreeeever to catch up,
dammit.... though trolling the threads is easier than typing
these left-handed messages! not to mention cleaning my teeth
and brushing my hair and getting me and my kid dressed and
undressed.
ah, well, shouldn't whinge, seeing as it was my own stupid
fault I broke my wrist, so i'll sign off with have a
brilliant birthday on sunday - may everything you wish for
be yours.
marie
[> [> [> [> [> [> Ah, that's sweet!
-- Masq, 22:02:14 11/15/02 Fri
All I want for my birthday is a big honkin' cliff-hanger
episode of my favorite show.
Oh, wait, that's exactly what's gonna happen! Wee!
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Exactly after
this Sunday don't expect another Angel ep til the New
Year -- Rufus, 00:16:00 11/16/02 Sat
[> GMTA -- Sophist, 08:32:26 11/15/02 Fri
On the way into work this morning, I was thinking about HH's
comment many threads below about how busy the Board has been
lately. (Further evidence, I suppose, about the status of my
life.) Anyway, my subjective impression was to respond "HH,
you should have seen the Board last Spring." You've now
proved there have been more threads recently, so I'm wrong
by that measure; how about more posts?
Of course, in order to settle this definitively, what we
really need is a word count..... That would give you
something to do while Masq is discussing that boring other
show. But if we could get Masq to do the count, we'd get our
definitive answer and leave more space on the Board
for the really important show. Heh heh.
[> [> Masq's too busy watching "Angel" to do any
boring old count... -- The First Evil, 09:10:11
11/15/02 Fri
[> [> [> Interesting how some people... --
yabyumpan, 09:25:36 11/15/02 Fri
have nothing better to do than sort out the archives and
think about board numbers, maybe the 'other' show isn't
occupying their minds enough!!!
Of course, if they were to turn to WB on a sunday
night......
:0)
[> [> [> [> C'mon people, you know that I
know that there is a difference between *quantity* and
*quality* -- d'Herblay, 12:37:23 11/15/02 Fri
I mean, really, I talk about Angel more than I
talk about Buffy (though, to be honest, I don't talk
about either all that much). My "Meet the Posters" picture
is Wesley; strangely (and it is sort of strange) enough, my
girlfriend's is Lilah.
However, it is well known that Buffy provokes more
discussion, and that a large contingent of posters here
treat Angel as the older show's redheaded stepchild.
So, with Sophie's earlier statistics also in mind, when I
went looking for days of unusually high activity, I
naturally concentrated on the days following new episodes of
Buffy. I would love for there to be more discussion
following Angel (and I think the move to Sunday night
has allowed there to be much more before we get swamped
under Buffy threads), but as a matter of counting, I
stand by my assertion that Angel is discussed
less.
[> [> [> [> [> Yes, N, T and L --
Slain, 13:11:11 11/15/02 Fri
I honestly would like to discuss Angel more - but by the
time I've downloaded the latest episode, it's usually time
to download Buffy already, and by that time the Angel
threads have been consumed by Buffy the WB Slayer. Plus, to
be honest, I just don't have that much to say about Angel,
like it as much as I do.
Also, I'd like to point out that the quote "I'm gonna beat
you like a red-headed stepchild" comes from 'Bad Eggs',
having just spend the past few minutes trying to remember
where I'd heard the phrase 'red-headed stepchild'
before!
[> [> [> [> [> Re: C'mon people, you know
that I know that there is a difference between *quantity*
and *quality* -- Masq, 13:24:38 11/15/02 Fri
"I stand by my assertion that Angel is discussed less"
That's just a matter of factual observation, d'H
But it's my board, and I'll pout if I want to...
[> [> [> [> [> [> Channeling Leslie
Gore? Now that's truly evil. -- Sophist, 13:48:21
11/15/02 Fri
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> You wanna know
what's really evil? -- Masq, 13:58:42 11/15/02
Fri
Having that Leslie Gore song going around and around in your
head in the middle of a work day.
*ah!!*
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> LOL -
- Sophist, 14:27:03 11/15/02 Fri
[> [> [> [> [> There, there now.... --
Masq, 14:38:17 11/15/02 Fri
"though, to be honest, I don't talk about either all that
much"
And he wonders why he doesn't get quoted on the main site!
You gotta play to win!
"My "Meet the Posters" picture is Wesley; strangely (and it
is sort of strange) enough, my girlfriend's is Lilah."
Did anyone just go to a scary visual place?
"I know that there is a difference between *quantity* and
*quality*"
And that is so very the point. So many of the deluge of
Buffy threads are the same point made over and over again by
different people who don't bother to read down the board or
look in the archives. Many of them are one- or two-post
threads that get quickly archived. And many of them are just
about a new wrinkle in Spike's leather coat.
*yawn*
[> [> Archive statistics -- Sophie, 09:44:31
11/15/02 Fri
I find archive stats to be quite interesting and actually do
research and some stats work at work. I don't know what
tools Voy has to help crunch data (number threads per day,
number posts per day, number posts per thread, etc), but I
crunched some data of the sort once before, if you remember.
I would be interested in doing more simply because I am
curious, though bear in mind that I am a grad student (this
status will fortunately end next May) and sometimes get
swamped with homework.
S
[> [> [> OT to Sophie -- tim, 10:03:57
11/15/02 Fri
I'm curious as to your field of study and where you're in
school. As a fellow graduate student (political science,
Ohio State) on the way out next spring, I'm always happy to
find a kindred spirit.
BTW, I read your post on the summary stats of the board a
couple of months ago. Fascinating stuff! :)
--th
[> [> [> [> Re: OT to Sophie -- Sophie,
10:16:26 11/15/02 Fri
I'm getting a Masters of Urban Planning at New York
University.
My undergrad was in architecture. And I am currently doing
research (housing/urban planning related), which I really
enjoy.
S
(OT) Leonard Roberts' new movie DRUMLINE!! -- neaux,
04:50:31 11/15/02 Fri
Someone mentioned this week who played Forrest Gates Riley's
Buddy.
Well its Leonard Roberts and his new movie trailer for
DRUMLINE can be seen at quicktime.com!
The movie looks like a "Bring it On" type movie.. but good
none the less. and using your drumsticks like a cross is
Very Buffyesque!
A Sluggy Buffy send up....if anyone is interested --
ahira, 06:06:05 11/15/02 Fri
There is an onling comic strip called Sluggy Freelance
(www.sluggy.com). I read it every day and have enjoyed it
quite a bit. It has been ongoing for 5 years. One of the
recurring characters on the strip is Sam and during an
earlier story arc, he was vamped. After that story arc
ended, he traveled a bit and ended up in California. There
he encountered Muffin the Vampire Baker. It is only a couple
of strips but kinda funny. Muffin and the Scooby gang
rushing into combat with an oven, spices and cookbook. Sam,
being the ladies man that he thinks he is, tries to get in
good with Muffin by telling her you can kill vampires with a
stake through the heart. Naturally, all the other vampires
get quite upset with him. The strip is pretty good and I
recommend giving it a try. I don't have an exact date to
look for on this little bit, but am pretty sure it is
shortly after the Lysinda Circle arc if you want to look for
it. I am off to work now, but I can try and find the date
for that when I get home tonight.
[> was supposed to be in the buffy joke
thread...hmmm -- ahira, 06:07:38 11/15/02 Fri
[> [> Sluggy rules! Go read Sluggy you people!
-- grifter, 06:18:23 11/15/02 Fri
No, really, it´s hilarious, and it somehow manages to
balance long and intriguing story-lines with having to have
a three-column-strip with an end-gag every day.
Buffy gets a New Friend on UPN; Haunted goes bye-bye
-- neaux, 08:45:52 11/15/02 Fri
Here's the story on the new UPN schedule for tuesday
nites.
link
tostory
lets hope this link worked
[> I like the programme being called 'Buffy the
Vampire'. Very misleading -- Tchaikovsky, 08:58:37
11/15/02 Fri
[> [> Re: I like the programme being called 'Buffy
the Vampire'. Very misleading -- Deb, 09:15:24
11/15/02 Fri
Couldn't get the link, but I'm not surprised Haunted was
ousted. It never did grab my attention. Personally, I would
like to watch Buffy later in the evening, say 9:00 cst. This
7:00 really puts a crimp into my anti-social lifestyle.
Okay, I'm sitting her wondering how it would feel to morph
to vamp face. My head hurts so much right now that I believe
I am experiencing sympathy morphing pain for Spike . . . oh
. . . even that name hurts.
[> [> [> So let me get this straight... --
ZachsMind, 09:47:08 11/15/02 Fri
As a program to follow Buffy, they're replacing an
unsuccessful scary show that's not funny, with an allegedly
funny show that's not scary.
And they wonder why they can't get decent ratings at the
UPN? Idiots.
[> [> [> [> Too bad it can't be followed by
AtS as it was meant to be. -- Rob, 10:39:41 11/15/02
Fri
[> Must be avoiding genre so as not to compete
w/Smallville -- darrenK, 10:50:17 11/15/02 Fri
[> its not the time slot thats the problem --
110v3w1110w, 11:18:40 11/15/02 Fri
when they realise that the time slot isn't the problem but
its the god awful crap than they show that is losing them
viewers they might invest in some new talent to write some
good programs that are nothing like the bland Hitler-youth
utopia inspired shows like roswell and dawsons creek and
then they may get the ratings back
[> [> Re: its not the time slot thats the
problem -- kurse the
Tormented, 11:44:59 11/15/02 Fri
Hmm.. if UPN was smart.. they would spend some dough.. and
buy some of that slumping Marvel Stock and do some Versions
of Young Ben Riley...
OR... hows about a Young Scott and Alex Summers?! ;)
[> [> [> If UPN was smart... -- ZachsMind,
12:52:33 11/15/02 Fri
If UPN was smart, they'd spend the dough and do the same
media blitz on Buffy the Vampire Slayer's impending
apocalypse this season that they did last year when she
switched networks. Then they could put reruns of Enterprise
on after Buffy and the ratings would still improve. UPN's
run by idiots. You heard it here first, folks!
"Back to the Beginning" - S7/S1 parallels (spoilers for
all aired S7 eps, and unspoiled future spec) -- KdS,
11:07:51 11/15/02 Fri
On the surface the rumours about S7 echoing S1 have been
false. As I'm sure we're all glad, the mess at the end of S6
hasn't just been swept under the rug (beyond the mystery of
Buffy's finances) and the show hasn't just regressed to
jolly monster bashing. On the other hand...
We have a morally ambiguous souled vamp who may not be
trustworthy.
We have a nerdy but sympathetic character murdered horribly
just has he was seeming to develop (Jonathon = Flutie?) to
stop the audience from getting too comfortable.
We have a menacing but relatively powerless BB who does most
of his/her/its work through human or undead tools.
We have strong implications that the emotional core of the
series will be about strength through friendship, with
relatively little explicit romantic relationship stuff.
OK, if my suspicions are correct...
Spike won't be evil (OK, contradicting another post I made
below, but who cares...) but framed or manipulated.
The whole Scooby Gang will be involved in clobbering the BB,
but probably through very human ways (especially
Xander).
Buffy's going to die, but it will very explicitly be a move
to a new stage of existence rather than just "Oops, she's
dead".
Disagreements?
[> well.. this is a bit much. but here is my 2
cents. -- Kurse the
Tormented, 11:21:13 11/15/02 Fri
hmm.. well let me add some things to this.
First off.. I believe IMO that they are grooming Dawn to be
the next Slayer (I know about Faith).. she WAS made from
Buffy...SMG wont return next season.. though not certain how
in the world you can have Buffy the Vampire Slayer WITHOUT
Buffy..
I believe that Willow is making an exit as well. So we could
actually see the dismantlement of the old Scooby Gang.. with
a new version being born. Now whether any of this is true,
or just lurker speculation.. who knows.. and if you are
offended please disregard all this... and if you disagree
please feel free to comment.
[> [> Mystery's insane ramblings and
speculations -- Mystery, 12:41:17 11/15/02 Fri
So if the Scoobies are dismantled, and Willow and Buffy
leave, would that make Xander Dawn's Watcher? Remember
Xander for a while DID want to follow in Giles' footsteps,
but was never confident enough in it. In "Restless" he's
watching as Giles is "training" Spike to be a Watcher, and
he commented he did that once, but he's got a different gig?
Maybe now that Xander is no longer direction-less, he would
make a good mentor to Dawn. Perhaps if Spike survives all
this, he'll be a platonic version of Angel to Dawn.
[> "Back to the Beginning" - S7/S1 parallels (spoilers
for all aired S7 eps, and unspoiled future spec) --
Retread, 11:33:06 11/15/02 Fri
"The whole Scooby Gang will be involved in clobbering the
BB, but probably through very human ways (especially
Xander)."
And possibly Dawn. In the STSP follow-Spike-to-the-cave
scene, she offered ideas for non-magical ways to fight
demons. While I can't see Dawn, the Vampire Slayer V2.0, I
can easily see her taking a bigger role as a Scooby.
[> Re: S7/S1 parallels (spoilers for all aired S7 eps,
and future spoilers and speculation) -- bl, 11:35:55
11/15/02 Fri
There are even more parallels with Season 1.
We're back in High School, like Season 1.
All the Scoobies are single, no relationships, not even any
serious dating. Like Season 1.
There's a Big Bad trapped under Sunnydale High. Like Season
1.
Dawn went out for cheerleader. Like Buffy did in THE
WITCH.
There's a souled vampire hanging around providing
information and help but he and Buffy are not together. In
fact she's not totally sure if he's good or evil. For a
while she didn't even know about his soul. All like Angel in
Season 1.
Most of the episodes this season have had themes or monsters
from the earlier seasons. HIM was mostly BB&B (plus
SOMETHING BLUE). HELP was REPTILE BOY. SAME TIME, SAME PLACE
was OUT OF SIGHT, OUT OF MIND. CONVERSATIONS WITH DEAD
PEOPLE was THE YOKO FACTOR as a BB attempted to manipulate
the Scoobies by using someone they knew and trusted.
There are many more parallels but I wonder what this
predicts…
Buffy is killed in Season 1 but resuscitated. Not by Angel
but by Xander. Will Buffy be killed again...but saved by
Xander.
Angel slept with Buffy and turned evil. Spike has slept with
Buffy and now it looks like he's turned evil.
Angel lost his soul and became completely evil. Will Spike
lose his soul again and become completely evil?
Buffy killed Angel. There's a spoiler saying Buffy tries to
kill Spike
Angel attempted to release Acathla and end the world. Will
Spike, in some form, attempt to release the First Evil and
bring the end of the world?
After Buffy sends Angel to hell he disappears for a while.
There are spoilers saying that Spike disappears after Buffy
tries to kill him. But he already did the disappearing part
when he went to Africa.
Angel returned with his soul but no memory. Buffy cares for
him. Will Spike return..with his soul (and without his mind)
and be cared for by Buffy? Actually we've already had that
part. Spike returned with a soul and mentally damaged.
However Buffy hasn't cared for him.
Faith slept with Angel (I think). Will Faith, when she
returns, sleep with Spike? She also slept with Xander. Will
she again?
Many monsters, themes and scenarios from the early seasons
are being recycled...but done differently and in a different
order. I think Joss likes to set himself challenges. This
season I believe he has set himself the challenge of doing
it all again, but with a twist.
[> [> Faith didn't sleep with Angel - he's not that
easy. ;) -- Slain, 12:36:22 11/15/02 Fri
[> [> [> Re: Faith didn't sleep with Angel. Are
you sure cause I thought he did. -- bl, 17:19:24
11/15/02 Fri
[> [> [> [> She didn't. It's explicitly
stated. -- HonorH, 18:27:22 11/15/02 Fri
In "Sanctuary," Faith's guilting about Buffy and mentions
sleeping with her boyfriend. Angel says something to the
effect of, "But we never got that far," before realizing she
means Riley.
So no, they didn't.
[> [> Spoiler above. PLEASE label them. --
Sophist, 12:36:54 11/15/02 Fri
[> [> [> What wasn't labeled? --
Bemusedwoman, 13:18:22 11/15/02 Fri
[> [> [> [> Re: What wasn't labeled? (Future
spoiler) -- Sophist, 13:45:18 11/15/02 Fri
The following statement and the speculation that follows
it:
There are spoilers saying that Spike disappears after
Buffy tries to kill him.
[> [> [> [> [> bl's post topic says
"future spoilers and speculation" -- Still Bemusedwoman,
13:55:41 11/15/02 Fri
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: bl's post topic
says "future spoilers and speculation" -- Sarand,
14:00:53 11/15/02 Fri
You're right, it was labeled, but I didn't notice it either
when I went from the post above it, dang nabbit. Maybe the
spoiler warnings should be in big red flashing letters for
those of us who are losing their eyesight. Sigh, I know that
people like to post spoilers, I just wish they wouldn't.
[> [> [> [> [> [> You're right. My bad
-- I misread the subject line to be the same as KdS's --
Sophist, 14:25:17 11/15/02 Fri
[> Question about trailer for next week's ep...
(hopefully no spoilers) -- imp, 14:30:10 11/15/02
Fri
My apologies but this may be off-topic for this thread.
Considering some of the posts directly above this one, I
apologize now if what I am going to ask below constitutes a
spoiler. I want to remain as spoiler-adjacent as possible
but I just gotta ask: (scroll to bottom)
Does Xander appear at all in the trailer for next
week's episode? A yes, or no, response is sufficient for
me.
[> [> If I remember right.... -- Blood Luvin
Girl, 14:55:48 11/15/02 Fri
No.
[> [> [> I second that -- Deb, 19:35:13
11/15/02 Fri
Doesn't mean anything though. The trailers are meant to
generate interest, and right now many want to know what went
on in the final scene. Plus they can throw sex into the pot
at the same time.
[> [> Re: Question about trailer for next week's
ep... (hopefully no spoilers) -- Tyreseus, 19:45:35
11/15/02 Fri
I just checked out next week's preview on www.buffy.com, and
we saw Anya, Buffy and shirtless Spike (yum), but no
Xander.
Wasn't sure if it was Dawn falling of the catwalk in the
Bronze or just some random extra (red shirt).
what did we see in the seal? (spoilers for latest ep)
-- anom, 11:18:21 11/15/02 Fri
I haven't been able to keep up w/all the posts, so apologies
if this has been said already.
In chat after "Conversations w/Dead People," there was
disagreement about what we saw after Jonathan was stabbed
& fell onto the seal of Danzathar (or however the
writers spell it). Some were sure it was blood flowing into
the crevices of the seal (although it seemed to come out of
his back in large quantities even though there was hardly
any bleeding around the knife); at least 1 person insisted
it was tentacles coming out of the design in the seal &
then receding back into it.
I finally played it back a few times last night, & what
it looks like to me is waves of red(dish) energy spreading
out from Jonathan's body to the edges of the seal, where
they either fade out or sink into it. So I think we saw
something magic happening, even though there was no ritual,
no spell spoken, & apparently nothing special about the
knife Andrew used. It may have been Jonathan's life-energy
flowing into whatever the seal...seals, &/or activating
something under it.
Last thought: Like most of us, I was shocked & sad to
see Jonathan's death. But considering what (or rather who)
else we saw in this episode, we may well not have seen the
last of him. I wouldn't be surprised to see the "meta-morph"
(can't remember who said that, but I like it!) take his form
& "warn" Buffy like he thought he was going to...just
about the wrong thing.
[> Re: what did we see in the seal? (spoilers for
latest ep) -- Briar Rose, 13:27:08 11/15/02 Fri
Magic(k) doesn't require ritual or special equipment. Only
Intent and Focused Energy. I saw exactly what you saw;
Jonathan's life force being sucked into the Baphomet to
activate/feed/strengthen it.
I also agree that Jonathan could very well come back through
the "Ghost Roads" (for lack of a better anaology) and finish
what he started. Especially because energy of a spirit who
went to their death without completing their mission (and
especially if killed violently) often prevents the spirit
from passing into the Universe until the mission is
completed.
[> [> How Jonathan may come back... (speccy
spoilery) -- ZachsMind, 14:43:03 11/15/02 Fri
We know that at one point there was discussion among the
writers of bringing back Tara. Unfortunately Amber Benson is
not able to participate. So there may be aspects of the
plotline which require someone on "The Other Side" to be
involved. IF deadJoyce is not yet another manifestation of
The Big Evil Thing Eating Bottoms, which I personally
suspect, than the writers could utilize Joyce for that
purpose. However, if she's a part of the Big Evil, then
Jonathan could be used for that purpose.
However, Jonathan was killed by Andrew, who's allegedly
being manipulated by The Big Evil through the guise of
Warren, so it's more probable that if Jonathan returns, it
will be as another mask used by The Big Evil to hide its
true self. Either way, Danny Strong is still due a little
more screen time.
I just wish they didn't have to sacrifice the character like
that. I was hoping eventually he'd find his way in good with
the Scoobies. I've always liked Jonathan, pretty much since
"Earshot." I guess after the season finale last year,
Jonathan the good guy just wasn't meant to be.
[> [> Re: what did we see in the seal? (spoilers
for latest ep) -- Tyreseus, 19:08:54 11/15/02 Fri
Yeah, but if Jonathon did come back as a ghost to warn the
Scoobies about the seal, why would they believe him? After
Willow's encounter with BBW/Cassie, I don't think they'll be
taking the advice from the spirit world without a grain of
salt (well, maybe Dawn... we'll have to see how post-CwDP
plays out).
[> I agree with what you saw, anom. -- Wisewoman,
13:51:11 11/15/02 Fri
[> Re: what did we see in the seal? (spoilers for
latest ep) -- Sofdog, 15:12:22 11/15/02 Fri
Puncture wounds generally don't bleed until you remove the
object. They tell you not to remove the object until you get
to the hospital.
[> [> Re: what did we see in the seal? (spoilers
for latest ep) -- Tyreseus, 19:14:28 11/15/02 Fri
Good points about how that "shouldn't" have been blood, but
we are kinda dealing with a show where vamps and their
clothes turn to dust when staked, someone is able to say
"your shirt" after being shot through the chest, and other
impossible things take place at the moment of death. So it
coulda been just plain old blood in the minds of the
writers.
And why couldn't the blood be coming out of Jonthon's back
once the magic of the seal was activated? BBW "devours from
beneath" after all. Maybe it was devouring?
Being away on a short vacation, I missed all the "Spin
the Bottle" threads... -- Rob, 11:43:33 11/15/02
Fri
Nothing deep to add at the moment. Just wanted to know if I
was the only one who thought the entire Liam-switiching-back-
and-forth-between-vampface-and-humanface scene was one of
the funniest things...ever. And, of course, Cordy's reaction
regarding what she assumes he's spending so much time in the
bathroom doing. I almost hurt myself laughing so hard in
that scene.
Rob
[> And just what did you think... -- Masq,
11:47:26 11/15/02 Fri
Cordy thought Liam was doing in the bathroom? I didn't catch
this bit of innuendo. Care to share?
[> [> Not that I would know anything about
this... -- Rob the Innocent, 12:03:04 11/15/02
Fri
...but I kind of thought that it implied, um, the kind of
thing that Xander thought Buffy was trying to pantomime in
"Hush" when she made that unfortunate hand gesture, sans
stake. ;o)
Rob
[> [> [> I'll have to go back and watch that
scene again -- Masq, 12:07:15 11/15/02 Fri
You know, just out of mild curiosity. I was gonna rewatch
the ep again anyway. I already have, like, ten times.
[> [> [> [> In the meantime... -- Masq,
12:11:04 11/15/02 Fri
You can still pitch in on the "StB" thread below. Wouldn't
mind another guy's opinion on my psychoanalysis of Connor
and Angel.
Masq, who is starting to contemplate her upcoming,
already-advertised (not by her) psychoanalysis of
Buffy
[> [> [> [> [> MASQ! A humble request
please... -- ZachsMind, 14:21:24 11/15/02 Fri
While you're on the topic of Holden Webster psychoanalyzing
Buffy, please take a moment to psychoanalyze the vampire
also. Webster gives us a lot of clues as to how vamp minds
work while he was dissecting Buffy's head. After all, what's
good for the goose is good for the gander. Some of this has
already been covered in previous episodes, but some of it's
new revelations. We also see and hear from Holden's
reactions to his new state of being how the act of siring
works on the human/vampy psyche.
Predominantly, the body and mind of the vampire sees no real
distinction between death and resurrection, other than the
casual reaction like "how weird is that?" The vampire
still sees itself on the surface as the same entity it was
when it died, and usually is not frightened of its
condition. It has become something to fear, rather than
something that fears. Without a human soul, it is now
"connected to a powerful all-consuming evil that's gonna
suck the world into a fiery oblivion." Most humans go
through life completely unconnected and alone, so to
suddenly be embraced by this powerful entity which is wired
mystically to so many others, it must be incredibly
seductive and alluring, not to mention secure and welcoming,
especially for a psyche that just endured the trauma of
certain death and yet still retains some resemblance of self-
consciousness.
This sensation of being connected is thrilling and fills the
new vampire with a reverse polarity that somehow rewards the
ego for doing bad and discourages good behavior. It also
acts with a strange overconfidence, because it feels more
powerful (and ironically more alive) than ever before. Being
so connected gives it the illusion that it's unstoppable and
potentially immortal.
It's not the same person it once was. Instead of being human
and innately neutral or good, it's definitely the body &
mind of its victim, with a demonic evil possession of some
kind replacing the now absent human soul. We don't know what
this evil possession is. Is it a demon soul? Simply the
abscense of a soul? IF there's no soul, what's causing it to
function on a spiritual level, if anything? Holden does not
act like a feral soulless beast. He's very much the
gentleman, albeit with malevolent motivations. Nature also
abhors a vaccuum, so if the human soul has vacated the body
& mind yet they still operate, there must be something
replacing it.
After a bit of disorientation, a newly sired vampire soon
grasps its place in the world on an intrinsic level. As
Holden put it: "I've got the bloodlust pumping, and I
kinda get it. I'm looking for a fight. And, oh, it's nothing
personal..." and he also retains the memories and
personal quirks or habits of the human counterpart, but
added to this are the vampire strengths and weaknesses.
"Hello. Two years of Tae Kwon Do and vampire strength. I
think somebody's counting their chickens."
If a human tended to psychoanalyze people in their human
life, they'll probably continue doing that as vampires. If
they knew Tae Kwon Do before, they won't necessarily forget
it. However, if they were pious and God-fearing as humans,
their state of mind will be towards evil, chaos &
destruction as vampires. This could lead to a complex sense
of self-identity, and even bouts with madness as Drusilla
illustrated. For Holden, he accepted his new orientation on
the scales of good & evil without question. We're not
told, but it's possible he was agnostic or amoral prior to
Spike's siring of him. Holden doesn't take it very
seriously, because as he put it, "I got no worries. I'm
dead. The biggest thing on my mind is whether or not Tricia
Waldman came to my funeral or not."
A vampire's sense of morality is reversed. This could be
unsettling or confusing to a new vampire, whose body and
mind may still be habitually used to something else. In the
moment where Buffy opens up and starts crying, Old Holden
may have felt compelled to touch Buffy's cheek or hold her
hand comfortingly. Vamp Holden felt compelled to touch her,
but could only do it in a violent way, which confused &
frustrated both of them. This right here is the crux of the
issue between Spike & Buffy. They want intimacy with one
another but at the same time they're sworn enemies, so the
expression of their feelings comes out distorted and
twisted.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, we can learn as much
about vampires in general and Spike's psyche in particular,
by observing Holden's headshrinking of Buffy.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Cool. -- Masq,
14:30:20 11/15/02 Fri
[> [> [> [> [> [> Very nice
examination -- VR, 15:14:11 11/15/02 Fri
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: MASQ! A humble
request please... -- Rufus, 00:11:49 11/16/02 Sat
See, Darla was one smart hooker.....
Angel has his feet up on the table playing with his
father’s pipe. His family lies dead around him.
Angel: “Now I’ve won.”
Darla: “You’re sure?”
Angel puts his feet down and picks up a mug of ale: “Of
course. I proved who had the power here.”
Darla: “You think?”
Angel: “What?”
Darla: “You’re victory over him took but moments.”
Angel looks over at the body of his father and gets up:
“Yes?”
Darla: “But his defeat of you will last life times.”
Angel: “What are you talking about? He can’t defeat me now.”
Darla: “Nor can he ever approve of you - in this world or
any other. - What we once were informs all that we have
become. (Angel looks at his father’s body) The same love
will infect our hearts - even if they no longer beat.
(Angel looks at his mother’s and his sister’s body) Simple
death won’t change that.”
Imagine all that out of someone who never went to school,
Darla understood things about humanity that Angelus was too
immature to figure out. She knew that the father/son dance
would be an eternal one......never knowing that in her
special way she would start a new dance all over again over
a hundred years later.....Angel is always screwed up by the
parental relationship, and that is why he ends up right back
where he has been running from.
[> [> [> [> With the sound effects... --
ZachsMind, 12:59:50 11/15/02 Fri
Sounded to me Cordy might have assumed he was uhm... making
balloon animals in the bathroom. *smirk*
[> [> [> [> [> Re: LOL... Wiener dogs?
-- pr10n (<-- abashed), 13:16:20 11/15/02 Fri
[> [> [> [> [> Re: With the sound
effects... -- Rufus, 00:06:33 11/16/02 Sat
There were balloon animals? And I missed it????? at the
thought of Angel walking about with a bag of
"balloons"....hope they are the meytaphysical type.
[> [> [> You're not the only one. I thought that
too. -- Dichotomy, 16:49:29 11/15/02 Fri
She had that look on her face that said, "What's taking you
so long in there....Oh. Ew. Never mind."
[> [> [> [> Exactly! -- Rob the
Apparently-Not-So-Perverted ;o), 22:19:46 11/15/02
Fri
[> [> [> [> Or maybe I'm just hopelessly
naive -- Masq, 05:25:40 11/16/02 Sat
I just figured she thought he was going to the bathroom.
[> [> [> [> [> That's alright, Masq. You
were never a teenage boy, so you might not have the same
perspective. ;o) -- Rob, 09:46:57 11/16/02 Sat
[> [> [> [> [> [> Well, there's
that... -- Masq, 13:33:48 11/16/02 Sat
And that fact that, as a member of the Willow-Tara
contingent, I don't spend a lot of time sitting around
thinking about men holding their yanks.
Although I must add that many women do go through a similar
stage in their lives, just a few years further down the
line.
: )
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Do I smell a
Quote of the Week? -- Rob, 14:37:42 11/16/02 Sat
"And that fact that, as a member of the Willow-Tara
contingent, I don't spend a lot of time sitting around
thinking about men holding their yanks."
:o) LOL!
Rob
Theory about Spike (CwDP spoilers) -- Ferthepoet,
13:40:59 11/15/02 Fri
Date Posted: 13:21:26 11/15/02 Fri
Author: Ferthepoet
Subject: theory about spike´s sirings (spoilers)
after watching talking with dead people I rememberd my
favorite show Babylon 5, in where the audience was misleaded
to believe the show was about the War between the Vorlons
and the Shadows only to realize they were both manipulating
the younger races, the younger races send them out and then
started their independence.
Now the theme in BTVS have always been Good vs Evil vs
Shades of Gray....... I´ve come to think that in the end
what we´re gonna get is that this First Evil will want to
destroy the dimmension in where the show take place and
we´ll have all the Good, the Evil and the Gray guys teaming
up against it.......
The Balance between good and evil has been a reccurrent
subject during the season.... so maybe the First Evil Plan
is to destroy that balance and Spike is Siring people
because he believes that helps keeping the balance....
[> What I'm hoping... (speccy) -- ZachsMind,
14:53:32 11/15/02 Fri
I've noticed D'Hoffryn & The Devoury Thingy have similar
Modus Operandi. "don't go for the kill when you can go
for the pain." I hope that at some point the
shapeshifting evil gets overconfident and gives D'Hoffyn a
taste of his own medicine, and when that happens he gets
ticked off enough at the shapeshifter that he and Anya have
a temporary truce. If D'Hoffryn sided with Buffy's scooby
gang, I think pretty much all demons would follow suit.
It'd be kinda like if the democrats & republicans could
agree on something.
[> [> Re: What I'm hoping... (speccy) -- leslie,
16:26:01 11/15/02 Fri
"I've noticed D'Hoffryn & The Devoury Thingy have
similar Modus Operandi. "don't go for the kill when you can
go for the pain." "
Uh huh. No-one seems to have suggested that maybe the
Devoury Thingy IS D'Hoffryn.... oh, the possibilities.
[> [> don't think so -- anom, 09:42:56
11/18/02 Mon
"I've noticed D'Hoffryn & The Devoury Thingy have
similar Modus Operandi. 'don't go for the kill when you
can go for the pain.'"
Looks to me like Thingy wants to go for both the pain
and the kill. Just not "easy death."
[> Nice theory! -- Robert, 17:41:33 11/15/02
Fri
>>> and we´ll have all the Good, the Evil and
the Gray guys teaming up against it.
It has the lovely quality of being both unique and radical.
It is also nice to hear from a fellow Babylon 5 fan.
It was a great show before TNT eviscerated it.
[> [> Re: Nice theory! -- Deb, 09:06:17
11/16/02 Sat
Sounds like a show "Charmed" did. I hope they don't imitate
"Charmed." I've watched that show for five years and it's
really beginning to get old and stale and dull and stupid. .
.
[> [> [> Slightly OT, but -- Juliet,
21:38:56 11/16/02 Sat
Charmed was cool until they killed Prue. Proves my theory of
'you DON'T kill core characters of a show unless you're
going to end the show or resurrect them'. It's the fate that
awaits Buffy if it falls
Off to go read a fic now...concidentally, it's HonorH's.
[> Okay, you lost me here. -- Deb, 09:00:09
11/16/02 Sat
Spike is siring Vampires (evil) to keep the balance between
good and evil? The BB intends on disrupting the balance by
killing evil demons and so letting "good" have the heavy
hand? Correct my thinking here please.
[> [> Re: Okay, you lost me here. -- Slain,
12:51:22 11/16/02 Sat
The way I understood it, Ferthepoet means that the BBW will
trying a destroy everything - good and evil, by
playing with the balance, the balance that Wolfram and Hart
and perhaps the Sunnydale government are keen to keep
stable.
Personally, and this hinges on my belief that the BBW is the
First Evil, I think the BBW wants to destroy all good, and
to therefore destroy the balancing act of the universe that
it has always upheld.
I know a season is going well when I speculate this
much!
[> [> [> Re: Okay, you lost me here. -- Ferthepoet,
14:50:18 11/16/02 Sat
O.k we´re talking about the theory of the species here...
ever species have an important role to play on the biotic
sysmtems.... both the predator and the pray are as important
to keep the system in balance....Reduce the number of one of
them to a significant degree and system enter in chaos..-
the theory about vampires being need and Spike siring for
reasons that are good or at least considered good by him is
consisten with the killing of slayers in trainee we saw
during the first 2 episodes of the season.....
Another Theory is that since it´s all about power and
vampires have more power than human Spike may believe that
when the big fight comes Vampires would come more in handy
than humans
[> [> [> [> However. . . -- Finn Mac
Cool, 15:10:51 11/16/02 Sat
Vampires are NOT natural creatures. Plus, as Buffy once
said, "I don't think you exactly run out of vampires."
[> Yet another Theory about Spike´s sirings (CwDP
spoilers) -- Ferthepoet,
15:14:03 11/16/02 Sat
Another tought that ran trought my mind is that the girl we
see Spike siring may actually be the Shapeshifter and may
have conviced spike that it was what she wanted......
[> [> About the siring thing -- Dariel,
10:56:02 11/17/02 Sun
Another thought that ran through my mind is that the girl
we see Spike siring may actually be the Shapeshifter and may
have conviced spike that it was what she wanted...
We haven't seen any sirings yet. Spike bit, perhaps
drained the girl, but he did not sire her. For a siring to
occur, she would have had to drink from him.
[> [> [> Of course there's the whole
Willow/Sandy issue -- Finn Mac Cool, 12:36:50
11/17/02 Sun
In Dopplegangland, we see Vamp Willow bite and drain the
woman named Sandy, but Vamp Willow didn't exchange any of
her blood. However, Vamp Sandy turns up in Season 5 to tempt
Riley.
[> [> [> [> Re: Of course there's the whole
Willow/Sandy issue -- Dariel, 16:51:56 11/17/02
Sun
I think this just shows that Sandy was screwed no matter
which universe she was in!
[> Re: Theory about Spike (CwDP spoilers) --
Sophie, 07:22:31 11/17/02 Sun
Now the theme in BTVS have always been Good vs Evil vs
Shades of Gray....... I´ve come to think that in the end
what we´re gonna get is that this First Evil will want to
destroy the dimmension in where the show take place and
we´ll have all the Good, the Evil and the Gray guys teaming
up against it.......
Ok, the show has always had characters who were both good
and evil (within a char). But this was strictly limited.
Angel was evil plus good due to soul. Faith also was good
and evil using the slayer power trip as an excuse (forgive
me I have only seen about half of season three and that was
out of order). Spike was evil, then became good due to chip,
and now is being good and evil due to something unknown (BBW
or himself is not clear right now). Last season we saw
Warren, Andrew, and Jonathon, who were good, try to become
evil, completely shedding their good sides? Not convinced
that is possible. We have seen Buffy flirt with evil
intimately with both Angel and Spike. Other than her
mistreating/using Spike, she remains good. Then we saw
Willow brutally murder Warren. This was definitely an evil
act, but Willow has been forgiven as she was in pain over
Tara's unfortunate death and she has acknowledged her wrong-
doing.
Now this season, we are getting more shades of gray. This
typically happens to people as they get older – they
perceive more shades of gray and less black and white about
the world and others surrounding them. Eventually as a
person gets older, he/she realizes that his/her own actions
come in shades of gray. We are seeing the shades of gray
(good and evil) within a person applied to each character on
the show. Dawn may well be exempted due to age on this,
though.
I have mentioned this before, as I am fascinated by good and
evil within a single person. I struggle with such issues
myself. After the WTC fell, I concluded that much of what
people label as evil is not very evil in comparison. So
there are shades of gray in evilness. Probably shades of
gray in goodness, but I haven't thought about that as hard.
S
My analysis of "Spin the Bottle" is up -- Masquerade,
13:46:14 11/15/02 Fri
Here.
Thanks to everyone who helped me wrestle with the whole
Angel-Connor father-son thing!
"Conversations with Dead People" is next. Although I have
this sneaking suspicion it won't be done before next Tuesday
night. Hey! I'm not procrastinating, hoping they reveal some
of the answers to the questions "CwDP" raised. It's just
that it's my birthday on Sunday, and I have other plans. ;
)
[> What a way to stealthily drive it home for us that
didn't already know. ;-P -- VR, 15:08:37 11/15/02
Fri
[> Happy Birthday (t-2 and counting), Masq! --
Vickie, 15:25:31 11/15/02 Fri
And thanks for the great analysis.
[> Happy Birthday! -- Sophie, 15:49:11 11/15/02
Fri
[> Happy Birthday! Enjoy! -- Sarand, 16:10:11
11/15/02 Fri
[> Happy Birth-a-day To You! -- Dichotomy,
16:30:05 11/15/02 Fri
That's suppoesd to me singing it a la Jimmy Durante, in case
you were wondering. Have a great day!
[> Happy Birthday, Masq! And Many More. --
Arethusa, 17:25:04 11/15/02 Fri
[> May you be Too Soon Schmart und Too Late Oldt! :-
) -- OnM, 20:13:42 11/15/02 Fri
As the Amish folk here would say.
( Well, they would if they were on drugs, but... never mind.
)
Have a very happy and festive ceremony marking the fact that
you're all of one whole day older than you were the day
before!
[> Happy Birthday! -- Nightingale, 20:52:30
11/15/02 Fri
[> A Happy Birthday from your favorite
Trollop.....join the dark side Masq....:):):):) --
Rufus, 21:20:47 11/15/02 Fri
[> [> I'm staying on the light side of the
force -- Masq, 21:58:22 11/15/02 Fri
I did the whole spoiler trollop thing in Season 3, and
though it couldn't ruin the Faith and Buffy 'shipping fun,
it did take the air out of a lot of eps for me.
No thanks, I'm living clean now.
[> [> [> Happy Birthday Masq and you are a
wonderful host! -- Briar Rose, 14:30:10 11/16/02
Sat
[> Thanks all! -- Masq, 21:59:40 11/15/02
Fri
And in case you're wondering, it's the big 3-9 for me this
year.
[> [> And here's another for ya! HAPPY
BIRTHDAY! -- Rob, 22:24:14 11/15/02 Fri
But don't let all that cake, ice cream, and party hats keep
ya away too long from the CWTD analyzin'...Can't wait to
read your as-of-yet-still-non-existant philosophical sum-up.
;o)
Rob
[> [> [> Don't worry, I've started working on it
already... -- Masq, 08:56:32 11/16/02 Sat
[> Happy Birthday! -- Ete&Rah, 02:47:47
11/16/02 Sat
[> [> Re: Happy Birthday! -- Brian, 05:53:02
11/16/02 Sat
[> Have a great B-day! -- ponygirl, 07:55:22
11/16/02 Sat
[> Ohh. I hope you have a wickedly naughty time. -
- Deb, 08:54:11 11/16/02 Sat
[> Hippy-poppy-hoppy Birthday for tomorrow, Masq!
-- Wisewoman ;o), 17:04:48 11/16/02 Sat
[> other plans, huh? well, hope you enjoyed 'em! happy
birthday!! -- anom, 17:41:01 11/16/02 Sat
[> Have a very happy birthday for today! -- KdS,
05:43:11 11/17/02 Sun
[> Happy birthday! Hope those other plans include a
lot of fun! -- Cactus Watcher, 05:57:46 11/17/02
Sun
Anonymous No More (vauge spoilers 7.7) -- Juliet,
14:31:37 11/15/02 Fri
Ok. There's some mysterious evil haunting Sunnydale and
messing with everyone's minds.
But what is it called? No one knows for sure, but I think in
the meantime we should come up with a universal (or at least
board-wide...) name for it, since as of right now everyone
has their own. I'm getting hella confused.
My votes are for whoever called it "IT". :-)
[> I kinda like HonorH's BBW (Big Bad Whatever) --
Sarand, 15:21:17 11/15/02 Fri
Although in a previous post I might have referred to it as
"it", there's a book by Stephen King and a tv movie entitled
"It" that some people have referred to here and that would
just get me more confused. Just my opinion, though. Would be
nice to have a universal reference, I agree.
[> [> Re: I kinda like HonorH's BBW (Big Bad
Whatever) -- Haecceity, 13:00:51 11/16/02 Sat
Me too, though my brain kept interpreting it as "Big Bad
Wolf."
Would this explain the imploding windows at the Summers'
house;)
---Haecceity
[> I vote for keeping everybody confused.. --
ZachsMind, 15:40:10 11/15/02 Fri
I enjoy making up variations on the whole "bottom" thing.
Other fun variations are:
The Evil That Dare Not Speak Its Name
IT (Not Stephen King's It. the OTHER IT)
The Big Bad Whatever
Shapeshifting Bottom Feeder
The Devourer of Butts
Ankle-biter
[> [> Ohh. I second that. -- Deb, 09:02:43
11/16/02 Sat
[> Re: Some call it... Tim? -- pr10n, 15:55:48
11/15/02 Fri
And then of course Zachs would call it Timothy Bottoms.
[> [> No I'd call it The Ravenous Beast of
AAAAaaarg & point IT to Robin's Minstrels w/Much
Rejoicing -- ZachsMind, 16:26:22 11/15/02 Fri
[> [> [> Run Awaaay! -- Nightingale,
20:24:07 11/15/02 Fri
Sorry, I just had to de-lurk for this. My first Post and
it's a Monty Python reference. Figures...
(oh, and There was MUCH rejoicing...Yaaay!)
[> [> [> [> Did you find that in the Book of
Armaments? -- celticross, 23:11:46 11/15/02 Fri
[> [> [> [> [> Well, Giles said in season
five-- "THREE SIR!" Uhm, I mean three... -NT --
ZachsMind, 07:45:05 11/16/02 Sat
[> [> [> [> [> [> Giles must have
known... -- Nightingale, 08:40:16 11/16/02 Sat
That Five was Right Out!
Hey...Maybe this is why Anya is afraid of bunnies? With the
'Nasty Pointy Teeth' and all...
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Giles must
have known... -- d'Herblay, 21:28:24 11/16/02 Sat
Already considered by Wisewoman in her Halo-award winning attachment to her Anya character study.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
Oooh...Thanks! -- Nightingale having thoroughly
learned the lesson that..., 05:10:50 11/17/02 Sun
...nothing is new under the sun. Especially at ATPo where
just showing up is a learning experience.
Well, my fleeting moment of "hey! that was new and
original!" just went slinking off into the night. Sorry to
(albeit unknowingly) repeat Wisewoman's (and apparently many
others') idea. Forgive me? I'm playing the newbie card and
hoping for mercy...
p.s. That was very entertaining. Thanks for the link.
[> [> And don't we have a poster called Tim? --
Slain, 12:20:53 11/16/02 Sat
[> Re: Anonymous No More (vauge spoilers 7.7) --
leslie,
16:23:55 11/15/02 Fri
I'm going to be an anal copy editor here and recommend the
standard editorial procedure of spelling out/defining
whatever term you are going to use on first use, followed by
an abbreviation/acronym in parens, and then using the short
form from then on.
[> Bootylicious? -- Dichotomy, 16:45:12
11/15/02 Fri
Rump Roaster?
Sorry. Seriously, I like BBW--easy to remember and not as
confusing as It might be.
[> My vote is for BBW, too. -- Tyresius,
19:03:41 11/15/02 Fri
Although I would also accept:
BYID (Beneath You It Devours)
MEME (Mutant Enemy's Morphing Evil)
EEMF (Evil Entity of Many Faces)
SSS (Season Seven's Something)
or Bert (because I was scared of the Sesame Street muppet
when I was a toddler ... unibrows. *shudder*)
[> [> BBW for me, as well. -- Rob, 19:09:01
11/15/02 Fri
[> [> The thing that bites you in the ass? Tony
Danzathar? -- d'Herblay, 21:11:41 11/15/02 Fri
And how many episodes will go by before Buffy mispronounces
that one "Dance-a-thon"?
[> I kind of liked Morphy... -- KdS, 08:59:54
11/16/02 Sat
... visions of little brown plasticine men.
[> [> Lol. -- Juliet, 20:14:05 11/16/02
Sat
I saw "teen-aged mini-Spike at Wal-Mart today. --
Deb, 19:10:27 11/15/02 Fri
It takes guts in this town to do this, and his mother was
trying to pretend she didn't know him. I went over to them
and said "Hey, I like the Spike duds." His mother looked at
me like I was nuts. The kid relaxed a little bit. Then
people started coming from all over to see. No one ever
fesses to watching Buffy, but they come running to see a
Spike imitator?
At least this encounter wasn't intimidating. A couple of
years ago I was in Chicago at Navy Pier. I was talking to
someone. Turned around and ran smack into a 7' Klingon.
Classic face at chest level with head tilting backward to
see where he ended. (Talk about platform shoes.) They're
much scarier looking in person, because they're so tiny
looking on TV. My friends paid him to "buddy around with me"
for awhile. I learned that its hard to ditch a Klingon.
[> Funny you should mention this... -- Wisewoman,
19:42:00 11/15/02 Fri
On the bus in downtown Vancouver today I saw three separate
people (two male, one female) wearing full-length black
leather dusters.
I don't recall ever having seen even one before.
Hmmmmmm.
;o)
[> [> Everybody wears 'em here at Purdue. --
Apophis, 20:00:00 11/15/02 Fri
Some geeks (it's okay for me to call them that, 'cause I'm
of their breed) think that if they drown themselves in black
leather, they'll be cooler.
[> [> [> Hey! I am in Purdue, too. -- Sang,
21:36:41 11/15/02 Fri
[> [> [> [> Yes, but do you have a big black
leather coat? -- Slain, 11:35:50 11/16/02 Sat
Let's not discount the Matrix, Blade and some other things
I'm overlooking, too. And Goths. Where I live, and we're
talking small English market town, it's not uncommon to see
the occassional black leather duster, sometimes in the heat
of summer. The thing I find curious is that they never seem
to fit. Even your big 6' Goth somehow manages to find
a coat two sizes too big for him.
Drew Goddard - Murder For Hire (Spoilers Through Buffy
7.7 and future speculation) -- Finn Mac Cool,
20:54:15 11/15/02 Fri
The fifth episode of Buffy the Vampire Slayer aired on
October 22. It was entitled "Selfless" and was written by a
writer new to the Mutant Enemy writing staff named Drew
Goddard (also known as New!Drew). The episode was praised by
many people, and one of the most shocking moments was when
D'Hoffryn incinerated Halfrek in the place of Anya.
On November 12, a new episode of Buffy was released that was
written by Jane Espenson and Drew Goddard. This episode
gained even more praise and attention (rightly deserved, in
my opinion, it's the best episode of this season so far).
And, near the end, we had a series of destructive images as
Buffy staked the vampire Holden, Spike bit a woman, and
Andrew stabbed Jonathan.
Anyone else seeing a pattern here? While the New!Drew may be
a great writer, I don't think that's the only reason he was
hired. I think that, after all the negative fan reaction to
Tara's death last year, Mutant Enemy is playing it safe and
hired a new writer whose duty is to write the episodes where
a character beloved by fans is killed (Halfrek and Jonathan
aren't popular enough to create the same amount of outrage
Tara's death got, but killing them off is still potentially
fan piss-offy). If fans complain about (name of character
here) being killed, the other writers can always go "It
wasn't us! It was the new guy!"
If this theory is correct, a recurring character may die in
many, if not all, of Drew Goddard's episodes. And, if I hear
right, episode 7.9 will be another episode written by him.
Who will bite the big one this time?
P.S. Clem! Your number is up! Death to the kitten eater!
[> Now for some "Insane Trollop Logic".........no
spoilers -- Rufus, 21:18:16 11/15/02 Fri
So, what you are saying is that Drew is now the Angel of
Death.....if this is true I can see the actors beginning to
call him "sir" or something.....;) Hmmmm I'm his #12
minion....my title.....Rufus the Uncooperative Minion....I'm
still here so maybe his killing spree is just a fluke....or
I'd better start kissing up pronto.
[> [> "insane trollop logic"--love it!!! --
master of pun fu, 23:29:55 11/16/02 Sat
[> Re: Drew Goddard - Murder For Hire (Spoilers
Through Buffy 7.7 and future speculation) -- Doriander,
21:40:34 11/15/02 Fri
If fans complain about (name of character here) being
killed, the other writers can always go "It wasn't us! It
was the new guy!"
Ha!
He may be the new guy, but he's surpassed some of the other
writers in my estimation. Much as I like to think of him as
holding the "You murdering bastard! Will you marry me?"
throne in Jossdom, until he kills a regular, Tim still
reigns. But he's 2 for 2 now, he's close to seizing it.
7.9? Yay!
[> [> On Another Note. . . -- Finn Mac Cool,
09:12:38 11/16/02 Sat
Does anyone think that Joss and Co. struck gold when they
hired Drew Goddard? So far, the guy was written one truly
great episode and co-written an even greater one. And I
think that ME realized this far in advance, otherwise they
wouldn't be giving so many episodes to a new writer. Anybody
know if Goddard has written anything previously? I think I
might want to look into it.
[> [> [> A Goddard among men -- Tyreseus,
17:50:38 11/16/02 Sat
I can't find any reference to previous experience, but there
is a fansite up
already.
They do have a somewhat dubious bio on
the site.
And from the man himself (also found on the site) he said:
I grew up in lovely Los Alamos, New Mexico. Went to
college in Colorado. Came out here shortly thereafter. Wrote
some television spec scripts, one of which found its way
over here, and then presto! Buffy writer. That’s the
extraordinarily abbreviated version, anyway.
[> [> [> [> Re: D. Goddard in Colorado U.
-- Sang, 15:17:22 11/17/02 Sun
I think my post about D.G. was not yet archived. But you can
find a interesting view of him in his B.A. thesis abstract
when he received Summa Cum Laude in English literature,
Colorado U. 1997. Alas, I cannot find the whole thesis
there.
http://ucsub.colorado.edu/~honors/theses/f97/f97.html
From the Light
Drew Goddard
Department of English
B.A. Honors Thesis Abstract
I'm hesitant to summarize my work in a few sentences. Simply
put, if I could summarize myself so easily I wouldn't be a
writer. I had originally intended From the Light to be the
first three chapters of a larger work. As I was writing it,
though, it became apparent that the circular structure of
the writing allowed the piece to stand on its own.
The piece consists of three stories, each told by a
different narrator. The first narrator is a high school
senior trapped in a night. The second is an adolescent male
trapped in his body. The third is a doctor trapped in his
hospital.
The triple narrator format of the work stresses the
importance of author-reader interaction. I strive to give my
readers A & B and allow them to create C on their own.
On the surface the three narrators seem connected by the
loosest of strands; the narrative moves from one story-
teller to the other through chance interactions. The meat of
the work comes from what is not said, from the white on the
page between each word and each character.
This is not to devalue the words themselves. Drunk driving
mishaps, urine sample catastrophes, and first communion
pictures all serve as ideal minimalist conduits to the
bigger picture (I'm not exactly sure what ideal minimalist
conduits means, but it sure sounds good, doesn't it?). Each
chapter -- each sentence, for that matter -- provides the
reader with the necessary pictures. Like the characters in
these stories, the reader must strive to make sense of these
fragments of light and darkness.
[> Re: And speaking of writers... -- Silky,
09:29:55 11/16/02 Sat
When we will see another episode written by Diego Gutierrez
(forgive my probably incorrect spelling) who wrote Normal
Again last season. That was a fabulous episode.
Also, one thing I esp. like about Drew G. and Jane E. is
that they both seem to be 'students' of the show - by that I
mean they have a really good familiarity with what has gone
on in past episodes and write episodes that contain
similarities or direct references to Buffy history. Makes it
more fun to watch.
For Canadians who watch the Space Channel ..DEC 8/02
Angel Special -- Rufus, 00:14:47 11/16/02 Sat
Was watching Space and it was announced that there was to be
a behind the scenes special devoted to Angel the
Series......Sunday December 8 at 5pm eastern.
[> Cool! I already saw the one they did on BtvS on Nov
12. -- Blood Luvin Girl, 02:06:13 11/16/02 Sat
[> Thanks Rufus -- ponygirl, 08:06:18 11/16/02
Sat
It's been quite a different experience watching the s6
episodes on Space. Seeing the shows in order but without the
weeklong gaps really makes me appreciate even more what ME
was doing last year. And they didn't cut OMWF! Yay for
Space!
[> You have a "Space Channel"? -- Deb, 08:48:08
11/16/02 Sat
I'm lucky to get UPN. I'll be glad when we can pick and
choose the channels we wanted at a flat fee per month per
channel.
[> Re: For Canadians who watch the Space Channel ..DEC
8/02 Angel Special -- lynx, 16:20:12 11/16/02 Sat
i missed the buffy special (pout) but i won't miss the angel
- thanks.
2 specs with 7.7 spoilers and well-known future cast
spoiler -- HonorH, 00:41:25 11/16/02 Sat
First spec: What does everyone think will happen to Andrew
now? Is he gonna take Spike's place as the Phantom of
Sunnydale High? I can just see Gollum!Andrew creeping around
and talking to Jonathan's corpse as what passes for his
brain goes into a steady decline.
Second spec: with Faith in the cards for later, and various
rumblings that Willow will have a new girlfriend sooner or
later, who thinks it might be Faith? Seriously: Faith and
Willow could really understand each other now. They've both
gone over to the dark side, off the deep end, and have ended
up sobbing in a male friend's arms. Faith's hot and--come
on!--nowhere near strictly straight, and I can see her and
Willow working off some angst together. And even if you
don't buy the subtext argument re: Faith's sexuality, she's
been in prison; tell me that someone with Faith's libido has
been celibate the entire time. Options are pretty limited in
the clink, y'know?
Comments? Questions?
[> Re: 2 specs with 7.7 spoilers and well-known future
cast spoiler -- chuk_38, 04:43:01 11/16/02 Sat
could happen, but i dont mean to put a pin in it, but willow
hates faith, and the hatred isnt just a little anger, its
kinda a full blown 'i want you dead ' thing :)
but still it could happen, they have both had similar
excperiences, with the killing humans and being evil, so why
not. it could happen :)
craig
[> [> my season 7 theory *spoilers* --
110v3w1110w, 07:54:01 11/16/02 Sat
what could go down given all the plot clues given so far.
the big bad is IMO the first evil and from what we have
heard it say it has had enough of the balance and enough of
the mortal coil so i think that i wants to die and in doing
so it will destroy the balance between good and evil. so i
think it will manipulate spike in to vamping dawn (this
would cover the clues of joyce saying buffy would be against
her and all the other dawn being vamped foreshadowing) and
in doing so would provoke buffy into killing it and when
buffy does kill it the balance will be gone so buffy will
have to commit an act of evil to restore the balance the act
i think will be killing xander. (this would cover the
meaning the heart failing business of cassie because he is
the heart of the scoobys and it also might explain why he
wasn't in the recent episode) this would also explain why
the big bad wants willow out of the way because willow has
been through the whole destroying the world thing for
revenge and might be able to talk buffy out of killing the
first evil out of revenge for dawn becaue she know what it
would mean. the only thing i can't fit in andrews role in
all of this and it would also rely on balance between good
and evil being critical in the buffyverse. so what do you
think ?
[> [> [> Interesting. So many paths... --
Deb, 11:08:23 11/16/02 Sat
[> [> [> Somehow... -- Juliet, 20:49:13
11/16/02 Sat
Paths do point to both of these, but I think only one of
them can happen.
Why? Because losing one alone would devastate Buffy, and
losing both would destroy her beyond the point of
repair.
She's already screwed up enough, and I think if the writers
were going to kill off another major character it would just
mess up the whole dynamic of the show.
But that's just my $.02 .
[> [> Re: 2 specs with 7.7 spoilers and well-known
future cast spoiler -- leslie,
11:49:00 11/16/02 Sat
"but willow hates faith, and the hatred isnt just a little
anger, its kinda a full blown 'i want you dead ' thing
:)"
But Willow hated Faith because Faith was usurping her
position as Buffy's best friend, *and*, if we want to get
all psychodynamicy about it, there was that gay subtext in
Buffy and Faith's relationship--maybe hitting Willow's as-
yet-undiscovered lesbian raw nerve? Maybe now that Willow
realizes and accepts that she's gay, her hostility to Faith
will be lessened?
[> [> [> And, too, I can't see Willow getting
all judgmental now. -- HonorH, 12:55:10 11/16/02
Sat
She hated Faith for usurping her position with Buffy and
also for going bad and betraying Buffy. However, now that
there's really no chance of Faith usurping her with Buffy
anymore, and Willow's gone bad and betrayed Buffy and her
friends herself, is Willow really going to feel a need to be
that venomous toward Faith anymore?
[> [> [> [> Of course she'll still hate
her! -- Finn Mac Cool, 13:34:38 11/16/02 Sat
While that reaction may no longer be justified, it seems to
be pretty much the only way she knows to act around
Faith.
[> [> [> [> [> Wanna place some bets?
-- HonorH, 14:08:42 11/16/02 Sat
I'm going to say Willow will not be venomous toward Faith
anymore. I'm not going to say there won't be some tension,
but the unreasoning hatred will go. This is where I stand.
You can quote me.
[> [> [> [> [> [> I am with you 100%
HonorH. -- errin, 14:21:03 11/16/02 Sat
I have been thinking that something is going to happen
between Willow and Faith for months now. I am glad that now
I see that someone else is with me on this one.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Let me rephrase
what I said -- Finn Mac Cool, 15:06:27 11/16/02
Sat
I think, upon first encounter, we'll see the old hatred
still blazing between Witch and Slayer. However, the idea
that after an episode or two of Faith being in Sunnydale,
the two of them may become closer (possibly intimate) does
sound quite logical to me. But, the first episode Faith
appears in (or the first one where she and Willow have a
chance to talk, anyway) will not be all "I can sympathise, I
know what you went through, is that lesbian subtext you had
real?"
[> [> [> [> [> [> ***SPOILERS ***Re:
Wanna place some bets? -- CouldaShoulda
, 16:07:06 11/16/02 Sat
I totally agree with you, HonorH.
Buffy hated Spike, Xander hated Cordelia, so Willow hated
Faith. Big deal.
So Faith's not a lesbian. Big Deal. She is Faith-I'd say
she's pretty open to just about anything.
Now, I do think the knifepoint hostage taking, sexually
assauting best friend piece will be a bit of an obstacle,
OTOH, this is Sunnydale...
I know that one of the upcoming SITs is supposed to be a
slightly older bi/lesbian but to me that just seems too
obvious. I'd be disappointed if they took the easy out and
paired her with the first lesbian that came along, OTOH,
this is M. E. ....
I know ships aren't supposed to be important this season but
they have said that W will get a new luv, and it would be
more economical plot thread wise to pair her with F, plus
there's just such a great symmetry to it-it closes a circle
that started back in S3. My take is that S3 F brought to the
surface a lot of W's own "dark" forbidden stuff -remember,
Doppelgangland opens with a discussion about Faith and W
goes all pencil spinny.
I am not saying it's going to be a big cosmic soul mate
romance, but I can certainly see some apocalyptically-
induced sexual sparkage between two gals on the redemption
path. And remember, it took the Ascension to finally get
W/Oz in the sack.
I can also see them having to reverse that S3 triangle and
come together to deal with a possibly evil Buffy.
Anyhoo, just my .02 worth of speculation. It's fun to
imagine, even if it doesn't happen
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Of course she'll still
hate her! -- Malandanza, 20:01:49 11/17/02 Sun
I agree with Finn on this one -- there will be no
Faith/Willow relationship, sexual or romantic.
First big barrier? Faith likes having sex with guys. She's
the "do that" girl.
FAITH: Faith has won a fabulous trip to England, and I
got the consolation prize. Which is you.
She lowers herself onto his lap. Runs her hands along his
arms.
FAITH (cont'd): Well aren't you just a big ol' block of
man.
Who Are You
Which is not to say that Faith doesn't have some issues with
sex -- but those seem to be more a
long the lines of feeling guilty for liking sex (and having
her friends treat her like a slut for expressing her
sexuality only reinforced her guilt) and intimacy issues
(thus, tossing Xander out of her apartment in The Zeppo and
her reaction with Riley in WAY).
FAITH: Oh, you wouldn't have liked Faith. She's not
proper and joyless like a girl should be. She has a tendency
to give in to her animal instincts.
Who Are You
Early on, Faith is clearly established as much more
experienced than Buffy and her friends. She shocks them into
silence with her remarks in episodes like B&tB and
frequently unsettles Buffy with her talk about using a
couple of studs, why Buffy hasn't had sex with Xander (what
are friends for), equating sex and violence -- plus all the
grunting. In Superstar, omniscient Jonathan tells a penitent
Riley that Buffy might feel uneasy because of Faith's vast
sexual experience (with guys).
Next, there are her disparaging remarks about lesbians --
suggesting that
FAITH: Well, could be things are looking up. I mean,
little stint in the pokey, show her the error and all that.
I'm sure there's some big ol' Bertha just waiting to shower
her ripe little self with affection.
further comments about Willow "not driving stick" any more
and smugly telling Willow that she's sure Willow will give
Tara what she needs. Faith seems more homophobic than
homosexual to me (not that the two are mutually exclusive).
On AtS, she thought Lilah was predatory older lesbian trying
to pick up young girls and played along to mug Lilah. The
subtext that we've seen with Faith is just Faith being Faith
-- unsettling other people (usually Buffy) by playing on
their misconceptions and inhibitions.
Finally, even if Faith were a lesbian, it would never be
with Willow. Willow hates Faith passionately and
irrationally. It began because Willow was jealous of Faith's
friendship with Buffy -- this is an issue that would present
itself once more if Faith were to return to Sunnydale. After
everything she's been through, Buffy would almost certainly
want to make amends with Faith. Willow is already feeling a
bit like an outsider after going evil, worrying that Faith
would replace her again would be unlikely to engender any
feelings of goodwill between Willow and Faith. From Faith's
point of view, Willow is hardly a blip on the radar. Faith
barely noticed Willow. In WAY, she even remarks that she'd
forgotten how much willow hated Faith after Wilow's rant
about throwing the book at Faith. Faith's return will not
create anything but jealousy in Willow.
I'm not sure why anyone would even want to see them together
-- imagine the Willow/Tara fight in Season Five with Faith
instead of Tara. Faith would have knocked Willow's teeth in
for attacking her like that. It would be Spuffy all over
again -- one partner physically abusive and the other
emotionally abusive.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Plus the Zeppo
thing -- Philistine, 21:24:32 11/17/02 Sun
True, Willow hasn't had any romantic interest in Xander for
a couple of years now. But be that as it may, do you really
think she's ever going to forgive Faith for being Xander's
"first?"
[> [> [> [> [> [> A few
counterpoints: -- HonorH, 22:57:41 11/17/02 Sun
1. Yes, Faith likes guys. However, she and Buffy burned up
the screen with homoerotic subtext in S3, complete with an
awful lot of double entendres (Buffy saying she had a "date"
with Faith in "Homecoming", Faith drawing a heart on the
window in BG, the dance scene in BG, Faith kissing Buffy's
forehead (and in the shooting script, it was her lips) in
"Enemies," saying "Give us a kiss" in GDI). Overall, I'd
call Faith firmly "bi".
2. If you don't accept the subtext argument, Faith's been in
prison for over two years now. Is someone with her libido
going to be celibate this entire time? In the clink, there
aren't a lot of options.
3. Yes, indeedy, Faith did cotton on to Willow/Tara awful
quickly. Can we say, "Gaydar"?
4. Faith's claw-sharpening with Willow was, well, claw-
sharpening with Willow. Her comment about Buffy was just to
be mean. And the thing with Lilah? If it had been Lee making
the proposition, she'd have done the exact same thing. Note
how she attacked the pimp at the beginning. He didn't look
like a lesbian to me.
5. Like I've been saying: Willow doesn't feel like she's in
a position to judge anyone right now. Willow's seen the dark
side of herself. She betrayed Buffy and all her friends and
endangered the lot of them just as badly as, if not worse
than, Faith ever did. That's not conducive to irrational
hatred.
6. You're missing who's been dominant in all Willow's
relationships. She was the one who abused Tara, not the
other way around. Faith's learned some control, hopefully,
and aside from that, Willow still has the witchy powers, so
no abusing her. Now, they could end up like Buffy and Spike,
but if Faith's been on the road to redemption, she and
Willow have both grown a great deal. Neither of them are as
emotionally unhealthy as Buffy and Spike were last year--at
least, I don't believe Faith will be as unhealthy as she was
when last we saw her. That wouldn't be good character
development.
Anyway, I'm still arguing for it.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: A few
counterpoints: -- Malandanza, 07:23:35 11/18/02
Mon
"Yes, Faith likes guys. However, she and Buffy burned up
the screen with homoerotic subtext in S3, complete with an
awful lot of double entendres (Buffy saying she had a "date"
with Faith in "Homecoming", Faith drawing a heart on the
window in BG, the dance scene in BG, Faith kissing Buffy's
forehead (and in the shooting script, it was her lips) in
"Enemies," saying "Give us a kiss" in GDI). Overall, I'd
call Faith firmly "bi"."
Yes, indeedy, Faith did cotton on to Willow/Tara awful
quickly. Can we say, "Gaydar"?
I'd point out that Spike also picked up on Willow/Tara
awfully quickly in TYF. Spike had his sexbot programmed to
talk about Angel. Spike frequently makes disparaging
comments about homosexuals. Spike vamps guys (even though
we've seen the feeding process as sexual). The kiss on
Buffy's forehead wasn't sexual any more than was Angelus'
kiss on Spike's forehead back in Season Two. No one thinks
Spike is bi. And even if he were bi, would he have sex with
Xander? Any homoeroticism between Faith and Buffy (and I
think you are giving this handful of instances too much
significance -- these instances were more about dominance
games than sex) says something about Faith and Buffy, not
Faith and Willow. Certainly when Faith and Buffy were alone,
away from any other people, the conversation was not
homoerotic. It was usually about guys.
If you don't accept the subtext argument, Faith's been in
prison for over two years now. Is someone with her libido
going to be celibate this entire time? In the clink, there
aren't a lot of options.
I don't believe that every heterosexual woman emerges from
prison a lesbian or bisexual. In Faith's case, because she
is so in to guys, I'd say it's even less likely (now, sex
with a male prison guard might be a different story). Plus,
sexual behavior in prison is no indication of a person's
true sexual proclivities -- there are male prisoners who are
gay in prison, but would never think of touching a guy in
the outside world.
"Like I've been saying: Willow doesn't feel like she's in
a position to judge anyone right now. Willow's seen the dark
side of herself. She betrayed Buffy and all her friends and
endangered the lot of them just as badly as, if not worse
than, Faith ever did. That's not conducive to irrational
hatred."
Willow has frequently not been in the position to judge, yet
she has never let that stop her from being judgmental. So
while I agree that she's not in a position to judge Faith, I
also believe she's hypocritical enough to judge Faith
anyway. And you're missing the point about "irrational
hatred" -- it's not rational.
"You're missing who's been dominant in all Willow's
relationships. She was the one who abused Tara, not the
other way around. Faith's learned some control, hopefully,
and aside from that, Willow still has the witchy powers, so
no abusing her."
Willow's witchy powers are a problem. Remember Willow's
psychotic flash in the Frat house when she used magic
against the spider demon? Remember Faith's psychotic flash
when Willow was verbally abusing her in WAY? A quarrel
between the girls could quickly escalate into Spuffy (or
worse -- Buffy and Spike really couldn't do any lasting
physical damage to each other).
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Spike is
bi -- Etrangere, 09:40:07 11/18/02 Mon
Sorry, I agree with you about Willow/Faith being extremely
unlikely, but there were a definite homosexual subtext in
the relationship between Angel(us) and Spike in S2.
I think that early on ME toyed a lot with the idea of all
vampires having a very open sexuality, that's what was
really behind VampWillow's behaviour, not foreshadowing of
Willow's future orientation.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I
certainly do -- Cleanthes,
12:24:36 11/18/02 Mon
No one thinks Spike is bi.
Golly, I didn't think this one was very obscure. I've never
seen Spike as anything but bi. Are Etrangere and I alone in
this?
Dru seemed to think so, I thought, when she had such a
gleeful response to Angel and Spike fighting.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re:
I certainly do -- belle, 16:47:54 11/18/02 Mon
I dunno if I'd label him "bi," what with the whole
passionate romantic idealization of women, but erotically he
certainly seems open. Besides the A/D/S triangle, and all
kinds of fun subtext with Xander, there was heavy innuendo
in OAFA--Spike was pretty broadly leering at Buffy's hapless
blind date--in a contemptuous, vampiric, aggressive kind of
way. Forget the exact line, but the sexual subtext was
pretty un-sub. It was sort of like Frank N Furter making a
pass at one of his rivals.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> More
counterpoints: -- HonorH, 16:41:52 11/18/02 Mon
As you can see, some people do think Spike is bi. He just
wouldn't go for Xander because he does not *like* Xander or
find him sexually appealing. Even if you don't accept that
Spike could play both teams, though, he's got great insight
into human behavior, and he's been around long enough to
pick up a vibe when he sees one. Of course he'd figure out
Willow/Tara in record time.
As for giving those incidents too much emphasis, Joss
Himself has said there was a purposeful sexual element in
the Buffy/Faith relationship. The BG dance scene, for
example, wasn't about dominance at all. When you've got that
many examples of double entendres around two characters,
it's seldom for no reason. Faith's bath in Buffy's body
would be another example of a sexual vibe. And of course
they'd talk about guys--Buffy was with Angel when Faith was
in Sunnydale, and if Faith's tendencies were latent, she
couldn't exactly say, "Hey, B, wanna screw?"
Regarding prison: No, it wouldn't necessarily turn Faith
gay. However, if, as I think, she had latent tendencies
toward bisexuality already, lesbian sex in prison could
easily have turned "latent" to "active".
Yes, I know irrational has nothing to do with rationality.
However, changes in personality--as Willow has had--will
affect both the irrational and rational. Willow has shown
less of a tendency toward being judgmental this season, due
to her experiences. "Selfless", for example. She doesn't go
to Anya with a, "You bad person," attitude. She goes in with
a, "I know what you're going through, and I want to help
you," attitude. Her dislike of Anya, you'll recall, wasn't
entirely rational, either. Yet now they're becoming
friends.
This also goes to my last argument. Willow has changed. So
has Faith. A relationship between them wouldn't have to be
abusive in any way.
It's all just speculation, anyway. I'm saying it's possible.
That's all.
[> Though is would be interesting -- Deb,
08:38:00 11/16/02 Sat
I don't see Faith as one of the three. I think it will be 3
Dawn-aged girls. My opinion. Better to cast a spin-off:
Slayer Academy. I say this in jest, but one thing that Buffy
has shown is that a Watcher and her/his Slayer working in
secret and alone just doesn't cut it in this
postmodernneoapocolyptic world. Personally, I would offer my
talents by being cast as an instructor in the *Arts of
Sarcasm and Illogical Speech Acts as Weapons". Just think: A
dorm full of Slayers-in-Training. Spike could teach various
courses including *Sex and the Vampire* I can hear him now
when SITs miss curfew:
" Thank God. You scared me half to death . . .or more to
death. You, you and especially you - I could kill you. I
mean it. I could bloody kill you. I could rip your heads off
one-handed and drink from your brain stems. Don't you know
what is out there at night? Vampires. That's right.
Vampires, Big Bads, just like me. . . Well, maybe not quite
as Bad, but they could still slay a mini-Slayer, or two or
three. Then what? All the bloody effort and endless time and
hear. . .bloody bullshit I've put into whipping your asses
into form -- all down the bloody sewers. Can you imagine
what it would be like around here? All the wailing, moaning
and bloody grief. And I don't even want to think about how
the other SITs would react. May as well just throw a bloody
chaos demon into the place! You took stakes and crosses with
you, right? No! You teach em, and you teach em, and you
teach em' again, and what do they do? They go skipping down
back allies in the dead of night like they were queens of
the bloody Thanksgiving Day Parade! . . . What if you had
been sired? Never thought about that did you? Never once
considered MY feelings did you? Out of the goodness, and
love of my bloody heart, I'd come and dust you nippers
myself. Then there is always the possibility that I bloody-
well would then have to dust a good friend. See? That's just
how much I bloody care. What if all the SITs did this? I'd
have to pack a six-pack of bloody dust-busters. Batteries
are expensive and you think the bloody joke of a budget
would cover them? Not a chance in hell. I'd have to nic the
bloody things myself, and I would want the best, the best,
bloody batteries for you, and everytime I'd have to make
that special trip to the store, and everytime I ripped open
the package and dumped the batteries into my pocket, I'd be
reminded of your dirty little, tear-streaked faces. You
would haunt me you bratty buggers, haunt me. I have feelings
too you know. Oh, quit crying. You do this every time
because you know I can't stand to see the sight of you
bloody weeping all over your shirt sleeves. (chocking up) I
have my eye on you three. You don't know what terror is
until I start stalking your asses, and don't think I won't
make good on my promise to take your heads off the next time
you try to sneak in here after curfew. . . Now beat it! Get
to your rooms before I get really angry! . . . Oh, hell!
Quit your bloody crying would'ga! You're goin to wake up the
entire house. You'er SITs for bloody sake! You are strong.
You are invinsible! You're bloody mini-slayers you twerps! .
. . Oh hell! Anyone for cocoa?
I nicked some marshmellows the other day. You know, the ones
shaped like little pink hearts, and green shamrocks. All we
have to do it dig em' out of the cereal box. Now come on and
stop your whining. . .
Spike heads for the kitchen.
The three SITs stop crying and smile at each other.
"Now we'll make him tell us one of his fairytales!"
"Oh! I want ta hear the one where he saves all the orphans
from Lastat and Vittorio and then finds loving homes for all
of them!"
"I want to hear the one where he steals Dracula's girlfriend
away to win a bet!"
Sorry, I couldn't help myself.
[> [> Yes. I have every negative quality a human
can possess -- Deb, 10:49:38 11/16/02 Sat
and then probably a few extra-special negative qualities
I've made up along the way. I'm needy. I'm arrogant. I'm
self-absorbed -- a lot. I'm a spoiled b-t-h. And to tell you
the truth, I'm not going to beat myself over the head about
it either. I'm imperfect and I'm OK. My frosted side is
asking you to please read my post above and comment -- good
or bad. I can take it. My unfrosted side is giving my
frosted side the "Death Stare." My frosted side is telling
my unfrosted side to go take a leap off the balcony.
[> [> [> Well, *I* find you rather
endearing. -- Honorificus (Demented, Depraved,
Delicious), 11:46:05 11/16/02 Sat
I think it would be poetic justice for Spike to have to play
Headmaster to a bunch of hormone-crazed, devious adolescent
girls. Brilliant idea! I may just have to suck your brain,
dear.
[> [> [> Hmmm... -- Sophomorica, munching on
the last piece of birthday cake, 12:16:45 11/16/02
Sat
Let's see, as of late:
Four subway "sandwiches" – the F train has the best eating,
very literate and tasty morsels to choose from. Afternoons
can be slim pickings. Evening rush is best.
Stole lollipops from children twice – lots of fun, listening
to the little blokes cry for mommy.
Ate one stray cat. Kinda stringy. Bleah.
The other day, shooting spitballs at prim and proper elderly
ladies at the park. Spitballs made from chewed up French
dictionary.
This morning, bit Sophie's hand when she tried to give me a
bath. That soap-bubble stuff irritates my scales.
[> Something that I'm really looking forward to. .
. -- Finn Mac Cool, 09:26:12 11/16/02 Sat
. . .is Faith interacting with Dawn. Think about it: we've
never seen the two of them together before, but when the
monks created Dawn's memories they must have made some where
Faith and Dawn met, so they do have some sort of history
together. And, come to think of it, when Faith took Joyce
hostage in This Year's Girl, the post-Dawn memories probably
have her being a hostage as well, so who knows how that
might play out. Then there's the fact that Dawn seemed to be
channeling Faith to become the Pushy Queen of Slut Town in
Him. And, let's not forget the fact that we have two
seperate dream sequences where Faith talks about Dawn before
she even exists (the infamous 7-3-0/Little Miss Muffet dream
in Graduation Day, and her references to "little sis coming"
during her coma fantasy in This Year's Girl).
Granted, I suspect Faith will have volatile and entertaining
reactions with all of the Scoobies (or, at least all of them
left alive by the time she gets there), but I think Faith
and Dawn may be the best, with the possible exception of
Faith and Buffy.
[> Re: 2 specs with 7.7 spoilers and well-known future
cast spoiler -- pr10n, 09:57:23 11/16/02 Sat
Spec the First: Killing Jonathan gives Morphy access to
Jonathan's body, so hey! Mr. Corporeal Evil comes to town.
the Scoobs think Jonathan's part of the team, and
infiltration ensues. Andrew giggles madlty to himself, since
he knows htat Jonathan is reallt his Warren in disguise.
"We'll be a god..." Plural = singular? I'm thinking Morhpy
gets the best part of that deal.
Spec the Second: Faith and Willow takes me to a place here I
do spells alone, so I'm just saluting the good thought and
moving along. Although I agree that Willow hates Faith
passionately. Grrr-Ruff!
[> Re: 2 specs with 7.7 spoilers and well-known future
cast spoiler -- Slain, 11:28:34 11/16/02 Sat
I admit I'd never really considered the Faith/Willow
parallels - but when I do, I find I've got a route towards
liking Faith.
When I inadvertently heard about her return, my reaction was
that Willow should kick her ass right back to the clit-
clink; my feelings about Faith have always gone along with
Willow's (and, presumably, Willow thinks she kind of hot,
too). But now Willow is in no position to judge Faith. It's
true that Faith's guilt was substantially delayed - but she
reminds me of 'The Wish' Buffy, in that she's hardened
through loneliness, and doesn't have the friends to fall
back on that Willow has always had. As for a romance between
them, who can say? I personally find the idea very tacky,
like something out of 'Melrose Place' (which I acknowledge
I've never watched, but which probably has that sort of
thing in it), but I'd have said the same thing about Buffy
and Spike a year and a bit ago, and that confounded my
expectations.
So it turns out I, potentially, don't dislike Faith after
all. Yay me.
[> [> Re: 2 specs with 7.7 spoilers and well-known
future cast spoiler -- Juliet, 21:24:42 11/16/02
Sat
Melrose Place was all that and much more.
[> [> Re: 2 specs with 7.7 spoilers and well-known
future cast spoiler -- Tyreseus, 14:35:04 11/17/02
Sun
But now Willow is in no position to judge Faith
I think it's the most fascinating aspect of Willow's
character this season that she doesn't feel like it's her
place to judge anyone. Look how she reacted to the
Anyanka killing people thing. I think it's potential for
actual character growth of a character on BtVS (as opposed
to learning the same self-lesson over and over again and
forgetting it). Willow could be the most tolerant person on
the planet.
Also, as a somewhat late-coming Buffy fan, my first real
introduction to Faith was in "This Year's Girl"/"Who Are
You" where what I saw was a girl who was starting to learn
the error of her ways. Maybe Faith is going to parallel
Jonathon this season - trying to do the right thing and
caring about people. It might take the scoobies a while to
realize it (none of them really sat down and had a heart-to-
heart with her in "Who are you"), but all of them could
eventually forgive her.
We've got a lot of characters who might need forgiving
(Spike, Jonathon, Faith) this season and some who seem to
have been forgiven that may not quite be ready for it (Anya,
Willow, Spike?). And let's not forget those who are
routinely forgiven just because (Xander, Dawn, Buffy). Love
the potential psychological interactions.
Speculations (Spoilers through 7.7, mostly Spike-
Spec) -- grifter, 08:49:36 11/16/02 Sat
After having rewatched Lessons and Beneath You recently, and
having read most of the recent threads here, I am now
absolutely sure that Spike is currently host to three
different "minds": Evil!Spike, Good!Spike (William?) and a
third unknown entity (maybe Morphy, the Big Bad, but more on
that later).
Evil!Spike and Good!Spike seem to take control from each
other constantly, as can be witnessed in Beneath You (the
scene with Anya in the Bronze and later with Buffy in the
alley) especially well.
Evil!Spike seems to want to hide his soul (he attacks Anya
after she found out), he teases Buffy like season 2 - 4
Spike would have, and, I suspect, is the one responsible for
biting the girl and siring the psycho-vamp in Conversations
With Dead People.
Good!Spike on the other hand wants to help Buffy (witnessed
in every episode this season up to Conversations With Dead
People). He s also guilt-ridden about his (yes, his, not
Evil!Spike´s) attempt to rape Buffy in last seasons Seeing
Red.
And then we have a third entity, which everyone seemed to
assume is Morphy. We see Spike with Morphy in the basement
once, but after that never again. He is sometimes talking to
a third entity (Beneath You), but there is no reason to
believe this to be Morphy. He says that the third entity
wanted him to have a soul (Beneath You), so my question is:
why would Morphy want him to have a soul? To manipulate him?
He has shown in Conversations With Dead People that he
doesn´t need a person to be mad to manipulate her/him. Soul-
less Spike would have been easier to corrupt I think. No
Good!Spike to constantly tell Buffy about his madness and
(literally) screaming for help!
Now on to something else I have noticed: in Beneath You
Good!Spike hurts a recently de-wormified human. At first it
appears that his head hurts, as it should, but suddenly his
expression changes from pain to surprise. Is he just
surprised that the worm just turned into a human? No, I
don´t think so. The pain would have been much to short and
not severe enough. I have recently re-watched Smashed, were
he also inadvertently attacks a human. He crumbles to the
floor, holding his head for most of the scene, and that was
just for punching a human! It should be even worse for
putting an iron.bar through him I think. So, I conclude, the
chip hasn´t been working right for quite some time. The
reason why combines my two statements:
I speculate that the third entity within Spike is in fact
NOT Morphy. It is a force of good that wanted him to get a
soul and wanted him to guard the basement (or rather, that
which Andrew and Jonathan uncovered under it). For this, it
removed the chips effects (so he could protect it from
humans), not counting on Buffy moving him out and unleashing
Evil!Spike on Sunnydale. Also, the chip not working may
prove crucial in the end when he may have to go up against
human Scoobies. According to the "first episode describes
whole season"-theory, he´ll have to help in the fight
against Buffy or Willow/Giles/Xander(however this will be
motivated remains to be seen, I´ll leave my theories on this
out of this spec for now).
And, if I´m wrong and the third entity is indeed Morphy,
then why did he want Spike to get a soul? This season gets
curioser and curioser the more you think about it...
So, either comment on this (which I would love), or wait for
next week´s Buffy to completely rip my theory to shreds
(which i would, well, also love, because, as history proves,
ME always gets it better then my wildest speculations).
[> Re: Speculations (Spoilers through 7.7, mostly
Spike-Spec) -- Dariel, 11:20:34 11/16/02 Sat
In the church scene in BY, Spike says to Buffy something
like "I thought this was what you wanted," then looks
up and says "it's what you wanted." Not verbatim, but
close enough. The implication is that he's talking to God
when he looks up, not to Morphy or to some other entity
inside him.
When he tells Buffy about all of the entities in his head,
he refers to "him," "it," and the "other thing, the thing
beneath." The most obvious interpretation is that he's
talking about William, his demon side, and Morphy.
Particularly since he says that they're all telling him to
"go to hell." Can't imagine a "good" entity telling him
that.
So, there's no evidence from BY that there's a good entity
in his head getting him to guard the Hellmouth. Even so, I
kind of like your theory about there being a good entity in
the mix. Andrew does show up to perform his ritual sacrifice
of Jonathan the week after Spike leaves the basement. And
Spike, though crazy, at least appeared to do only good
things while a basement dweller; now he's out and apparently
killing.
Guess we have to wait to find out--arggh!
[> [> Re: Speculations (Spoilers through 7.7,
mostly Spike-Spec) -- Bluestar, 18:48:38 11/16/02
Sat
Spike has to many people in his head regardless
me-spike/willam good bad or wahatever
It-the demonSpike and its urges bloodlust
the thing beneath just what it says
if the BBW was controling the summers electronic systems
spikes chip would be easy
i think spike and william could deal without insanity since
william was invited by spike.
the other is an uninvited and unwelcome intrerloper and one
presonality to many for theinside of one head
Can Dawn be THAT stupid? -- wiscoboy, 10:42:00
11/16/02 Sat
After all that happened in S5 & at the end of S6, are
the writers really going to regress Dawn back into simple
stupidity when it concerns Buffy? I should hope that the
scoobies(including Dawn) can put 2+2 together, especially
with what Willow went thru. BTW, do you think anyone will
ask Dawn what happened to the house(thus encouraging
discussion concerning "Deceiver-Joyce")?
[> That crossed my mind too just as the windows blew
in. -- Deb, 10:58:51 11/16/02 Sat
"Dawn. You better tell me you had a party here, a big party
that spilled out into the yard and onto the street, and
that, that there are empty beer cans and liquour bottles and
pizza delivery boxes under the rubble. And, and there were
boys, much older boys. Actually men. Perverted men. And you
got drunk, very, very drunk. So drunk you passed out, and
you don't remember a thing after the police came to the door
and told you to turn down the loud, very, very loud music.
Now Dawn, look me straight in the eyes and tell me this is
what happened."
[> [> LOL! Only on the Hellmouth could this be the
preferred story! -- Dariel, 11:25:07 11/16/02 Sat
Although I can't figure where the "perverted men" fit
in?!
[> [> [> Re: LOL! Only on the Hellmouth could
this be the preferred story! -- Philistine, 20:38:49
11/16/02 Sat
Although I can't figure where the "perverted men" fit
in?!
Well, that's obviously on account of your youth and
innocence. I am not going to be the one to
fill you in on the birds and the bees - you should ask your
folks about that.
;p
[> [> [> [> Re: LOL! Only on the Hellmouth
could this be the preferred story! -- Dariel,
10:44:58 11/17/02 Sun
Well, that's obviously on account of your youth and
innocence.
Sigh--I'm a bit too old to have much of that left. Was
mostly trying to tease Deb, since the perverted men were
hardly necessary to tear the house apart. An embellishment,
so to speak.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Yeah, yeah --
Philistine, 19:19:30 11/17/02 Sun
Hey, no problem. It's not that I didn't know what you meant,
it's just that I just went to a very bad mental place when I
read your post. So I thought I'd try to share the fun.
[> [> A frustrated Fanfic Writer runs with this
particular pair of scissors... (speccy spoilery) --
ZachsMind, 22:22:14 11/16/02 Sat
[The scene we may or may never see next Tuesday]
BUFFY enters the Summers home. What's left of it. It's early
morning. Buffy looks tired and a little frayed around the
edges from her battle with Holden Webster and the
realization that Spike's up to no good. Again. The place is
in a shambles. Dawn's still unconscious on the floor.
BUFFY just stands there. She looks in shock. Her eyes slowly
try to drink in the room soberly. Camera cuts to show us a
pan view of what she's seeing. Practically every light
fixture and household appliance in the living area is
trashed. Weaponry and candles and broken furniture and
debris are strewn about the room, in a way that makes the
episode "Dead Man's Party" look like a bridal shower.
BUFFY: (to self) How am I gonna pay for all of this? I can't
pay for all of this!
She crosses slowly and looms over the stirring body of Dawn.
BUFFY: Dawn. Dawn!
Dawn groans. Buffy kneels down and touches Dawn on the
shoulder.
BUFFY: GET UP!
DAWN reacts as if she's having a nightmare about the
previous evening's events. She throws a meek punch Buffy's
way and begins screaming.
Buffy sees Dawn's face for the first time. It's puffy around
the lips and there's a gash on one cheek. Dawn has not yet
realized this is Buffy. She's far too out of it to make out
familiar faces at this point. She's still half asleep.
DAWN: No! Get away! Leave mommy alone! No!
Dawn meekly crawls away from Buffy towards the sofa. She's
retreating but barely has the strength to move on her hands
and knees. Buffy kneels there, looking after Dawn, whose
eyes look glazed over like she's still in a dream. Buffy's
face is one of utter bewilderment.
Buffy stands up.
We see Dawn weakly try to climb up onto the sofa. She
instead collapses to the floor.
Buffy goes to say something. Then she stops herself. Then
she opens her mouth again. Brief pause.
BUFFY: Dawn. You better tell me you had a party here, a big
party that spilled out into the yard and onto the street,
and that, that there are empty beer cans and liquour bottles
and pizza delivery boxes under all this rubble.
Buffy stops. Dawn's only response is sobbing, curled up in a
fetal position. Very slowly, Buffy crosses towards Dawn.
BUFFY: And, and there were boys, much older boys. Actually
men. Perverted men. And you got drunk, very, very drunk. So
drunk you passed out, and you don't remember a thing after
the police came to the door and told you to turn down the
loud, very, very loud music.
Buffy kneels down and tries to help Dawn to her feet.
BUFFY: Now Dawn, look me straight in the eyes and tell me
this is what happened.
Dawn's glazed over eyes focus on Buffy for a second as Buffy
lifts Dawn to her feet. A look of sheer horror explodes on
her face.
DAWN: YOU! Mommy warned me! You turn against me!
BUFFY: Dawnie?
DAWN: (attempts to push away) Let go of me!
Since Buffy's Buffy, and Dawn's comparatively far too weak
to push Buffy away, Dawn instead pushes herself away and
lands on the sofa, about where Joyce fell when she died.
Camera cuts to show us what Dawn sees. When she lands on the
sofa, she turns her head away from the camera and we see
white-eyed zombie Joyce sitting in the sofa next to Dawn.
Joyce looks over. Dawn screams.
BUFFY: Dawnie calm down!
Dawn screams again, she jumps off the sofa as if she landed
on a tack, falls again to the floor and crawls over rubble
and debris towards the stairs. Buffy just stares after her.
Joyce has disappeared. Buffy never saw her.
BUFFY: (To herself) The only thing that'd make this worse is
a visit by Child Protective Services right this very--
There's a knock on the door. Dawn darts her face towards the
door and gives a brief shriek.
Camera cuts to the door, now ajar and slowly opening with a
creaking sound. Revealed behind it after a few seconds of
suspense is Xander.
XANDER: (all smiles. He's seen this before) Rough night, eh?
Dawn gets to her feet, leaning against the stairway railing
like a newly born fawn. She looks relieved.
DAWN: Xander!
Camera cuts to show Buffy & Xander look at each other.
Buffy shrugs. Xander looks confused.
Dawn pushes away from the stairs, and limping, does her best
to rush into his arms.
DAWN: Oh, Xander! P-p-p-please take me away from here!
Please.
Buffy takes one step towards them.
BUFFY: Dawnie--
At the sound of her footstep & voice, Dawn repositions
herself so that she's using Xander as a shield between her
and Buffy.
DAWN: Keep her away from me!
Xander looks down at Dawnie's face now partly in his armpit,
then back at Buffy. A sudden look of realization and
repulsion crosses his face.
XANDER: Was she bad? This your idea of a spanking?
BUFFY: What?
XANDER: Slayer strength got a bit out of hand, again?
BUFFY: Huh?
XANDER: Like when you tried to kill us before?
BUFFY: No, Xander I-
XANDER: STOP. Just. Just don't say another word.
BUFFY: It was LIKE this when I--
XANDER: SHUT UP!
There's a pause. Xander & Buffy just look at each other.
Xander looks at Buffy as if he knows exactly what happened.
He's completely wrong but he has no way of knowing that.
Buffy looks at Xander as if her best friend has just accused
her of harming her sister. She's mortified.
Dawn's trembling and having trouble holding on. Xander puts
his arms around Dawn. He looks away from Buffy and turns his
back on her.
XANDER: Come on. I'll take you home.
DAWN: (meek. breathless.) Thank you. Thank you.
They exit. Buffy looks about the room in disbelief.
End of scene.
[> [> [> Poor Xander. He has to take everyone
home. -- Deb, 10:24:48 11/17/02 Sun
[> [> [> Nicely done... -- Dariel,
10:41:02 11/17/02 Sun
And so painful! You've got the ME angst-filled touch
down.
[> Stupidity, dear, isn't a factor. -- HonorH,
11:39:51 11/16/02 Sat
The BBW got Dawn down to a state of raw exhaustion through
making her believe she had to rescue her mother's soul. Then
it presented her with the person she most wanted to see
telling her something truly devastating. It isn't stupidity,
any more than Willow initially believing Cassie was Tara's
intermediary was stupid. Furthermore, keep in mind no one
knows at this point what everyone else went through.
As for the house, the likelihood is that Willow and/or Buffy
will come home, see the mess, find a sobbing Dawn, and ask
(not unreasonably) what happened. Dawn will tell them a
demon was there, and she had to cast it out. She will *not*
initially tell them about Joyce--after all, how's she
supposed to tell Buffy, "By the way, our mother thinks
you're going to betray me"? However, upon hearing about
Willow's ordeal, Dawn may confide in her, and Willow would
help her figure it out. I certainly hope so. They've already
done a Summers sisters estrangement, and it was painful
enough the first time.
Please don't accuse Dawn of being stupid until she actually
does something stupid. It gets us Dawn Defenders (who think
she needs one very big hug or three right now) all panty-
bunchy.
[> [> Re: Stupidity, dear, isn't a factor. --
Finn Mac Cool, 12:15:07 11/16/02 Sat
Also, given that she had to cast out a demonic looking thing
to get in contact with Joyce, Dawn has every reason to
believe that the ghost of her mother was the real deal. If
she avoids telling Buffy, I think it'll probably be because,
well, hearing about such a thing being said by your own
mother is way up there on the list of "information damaging
to one's psyche".
[> [> [> Re: Stupidity, dear, isn't a
factor. -- KKC, 16:33:52 11/16/02 Sat
Even more importantly, we as observers don't know that the
Joyce who communicated with Dawn wasn't the real deal. If it
was, Joyce may be compelled (or required) to communicate her
warning cryptically, as a riddle or other misleading
verbiage. I always think the dead lose their ability to use
language, and so when they return to the world of the living
they forget how to speak clearly. But I digress.
What if, when the big climactic battle comes, Buffy is
coerced into making the wrong decision? It may fall to Dawn,
whom Buffy has chosen to oppose, to make the hard choice and
make the tough sacrifice to save the world. This may involve
the killing of a loved one and a Sarah MacLachlan song. Or
it may involve stairs. :)
-KKC, who loves it when some form of media lasts long enough
to create its own stereotypes.
[> [> You go, HonorH, with the defending-Dawn-
iness! -- Rob, 14:35:17 11/16/02 Sat
[> Stupidity depends on the final analysis -- Cleanthes,
11:03:41 11/17/02 Sun
It occurs to me that the difficulties of Dawn will be
greater if she confides in Willow, say, what "Joyce"
told her, and Willow convinces her that "Joyce" was a
deceiver, and then it turns out it really was
Joyce and Buffy is NOT reliable.
That is, NOT to take this warning seriously is the actual
stupidity.
TV Guide's description for this Tuesday; doing some
background research, Part I (spoilers???) -- Sophie,
10:51:48 11/16/02 Sat
I expect most of you unspoiled people read TV Guide's weekly
episode descriptions. I do anyway. This weeks reads as
follows:
As Dawn and Willow recover from their chaotic night at
the Summers house, Buffy probes a series of grisly murders
that may be the work of Spike. Aimee Mann appears and
performs “Pavlov's Bell.”
Now this got me curious. I had heard of Pavlov's Bell
(probably in sociology theory class), but not really
remembering much, thought I would go look around the web for
some details. Below is what I found and pasted here. The
first part is the basic explanation, then a gig about
Schrodinger's cat with Pavlov's dog (amusing), and finally
(in part II), two sets of lyrics for the song. My apologies
for the length.
S
What Pavlov's Bell is:
Bekhterev's and Watson's research used a bell as a
conditioned stimulus. the bell became identified with
conditioning in the United States because of the notoriety
Watson achieved as a result of championing conditioning as
the major source of habit formation and learning.
Now, for something funny:
Schrodinger's cat and Pavlov's dog
Featuring an adaption of a league of gentlemen sketch and
another classic from Eddie Izzard
Schrodingers cat
An adaption of the league of gentlemen drinking game
sketch
Schrodinger is in the pub with his mates playing a drinking
game
MW: ...aspara-
*3: Ah-ha-ha-ha-ha!
SD: Forfeit! Forfeit! Ha-ha-ha-ha!
Schrodinger: It was carrots.
JT: Ah. Now, get it roight this time, cos I'm dyin' o'
thirst over 'ere.
SD: Right. Ding-ding! Round two!
MW: Tomato - what - aubergine - would - potato - you -
turnip - like - carrots -
to - asparagus - drink?
SD: Oh-ho-ho!
JT: Tomato - pint... aubergine - of - potato - best - turnip
- please!
*4: A-ha! Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!
[MW goes off to get the drinks. Schrodingers assistant
appears at the door, looking around
for Schrodinger. When he finds him, he leans down to
Schrodinger's ear to say quietly...]
Schrodinger assistant: Schrodinger, there's something I need
to speak to you about.
SD: Oi nominate Schrodingers assistant.
*3:Ha-ha-ha!
Schrodingers assistant: Sorry?
*3: No! No, no, no!
JT: Forfeit! Forfeit! You 'ave to say tomato.
Schrodingers assistant: I beg your pardon?
*2: A-ha-ha!
SD: You've got to put a vegetable in front of each word, in
the right order.
JT: Look - this is 'ow it goes, roight? Tomatoes - aubergine
- potato - turnip -
carrot - asparagus, then you add one o' your own, and then
it's back to tomatoes again.
Schrodingers assistant: Yes, I'm sorry, I really have no
idea what you're talking...
*3: Warrgh! No! Ha-ha-ha!
SD: Forfeit! Forfeit!
JT: Tomato - you - aubergine - have - potato - to - turnip -
say - carrot -
the - asparagus - roight - broccoli - vegetables!
SD: Ha-ha-ha! Or-o-or, aubergine - it's - potato - a -
turnip - forfeit.
Schrodinger:It's a drinking game, sor.
Schrodingers assistant: Look Schrodinger, I really do need-
*3 Barrrgh! Forfeit!
Schrodingers assistant: It's, er, I'm very sorry, under
normal circumstances - believe you me - I-I would like
nothing more than to, er, join you in your game, but... not
tonight, please.
Schrodinger: Go on, sor, go on. Go on - it'll be a bit o'
fun, sor.
Schrodingers assistant: Yes, Scrodinger, really, I must
MW: Tomato - 'ere's - aubergine - your - potato -
drinks.
SD: It's all roight - we got a new nominee.
MW: Wahey!
SD: Ha-ha-ha!
Schrodinger assistant: It's a private matter
*3: BONG! Wa-ha-ha! Wahey!
[pause as Schrodingers assistant finally admits defeat, and
decides to play along...]
Schrodingers assistant: Er, er, tomato - it's - aubergine -
a... potato - private - turnip - matter.
*2: A-ha!
JT: See? You're gettin' the 'ang of it, now. That's
roight!
Schrodinger: That's right - don't be embarrassed, sor. Go
on, it's just a little bit o' fun.
[pause as Schrodingers assistant gulps back a shot of whisky
to pluck up courage...]
Schrodingers assitant: Tomato - Schrodinger... aubergine -
your... potato - cat's... turnip - dead.
[Schrodinger is grinning widely, until the word "dead", when
it drops like a stone!
the others are all instantly subdued and look down at their
feet]
Schrodinger assistant: Erm, I'm sorry. I really am sorry.
Erm, I mean, tomato sorry.
Pavlov's cat
I have found a web site that introduces the idea of
Shroedinger's Dog, a creature so stupid it has difficulty
being in one state at a time let alone in two states
simultaneously. When put into a box with a decaying vial of
poison which might or might not release the poison,
Shroedinger's Dog chewed the vial thus ensuring it ended up
in a dead state every time.
http://members.aol.com/moggycat/pavlov-cat.html
Eddie Izzard introduces the idea of Pavlov's cat in his show
the definite article:
"Finally tonight I want to talk about this Russian guy
called Pavlov, Pavlov, 1904 Pavlov's dog. That's what he's
famous for. He did an experiment where he rung bells and
dogs would eat food and he proved that dogs had ears. It was
always in question before. And he wrote up his experiment.
Day 1 Rang bell, dog ate food, very excited, very excited
indeed.
Day 2 Rang bell slightly louder dog eat slightly more food,
very excited, have become Welsh.
Day 3 Prefere to be Welsh and so continue in that vein. Rang
loads of bells, dog eats tonnes of food and then explodes.
Publish results and then win noble dog prize at cruffs.
But he never published his cat results did he. Yes his cat
results would of just of let him down badly. They where
hushed up heavily in the KGB files.
Pavlov's cat results:
Day 1: Rang bell, cat f*cked off, oh dear.
Day 2: Rang bell, cat went and answered door
Day 3: Rang bell, cat said he'd eaten earlier cheeky
bugger
Day4: Went to ring bell, but cat had stolen batteries
Final day Day 5: Went to ring bell with new batteries, but
cat put paw on bell so it only made a thunk noise. Then cat
rang his own bell, I ate food.
from:http://sciencecomedy.freeservers.com/custom3.html
[> TV Guide's description for this Tuesday; doing some
background research, Part II (spoilers???) -- Sophie,
10:53:20 11/16/02 Sat
the song lyrics (two versions):
AIMEE MANN LYRICS
Pavlov's Bell
Oh Maria
Sit here by the window
Stay here ...
And when we go, hold my hand, I'll take off
Tell me what I already know
That we can't talk about it
No we can't talk about it
Because ... and someone nearly fell
... and ringing Pavlov's Bell
History shows there's not a chance in hell
But ... we're only two ...
It's going
I won't let it show
... denial
believe
That we could talk about it
But we could talk about it
Because nobody knows
... and ringing Pavlov's Bell
history shows ...
Well, well, well
Oh ... if this is nothing
I'm finding it's so hard to dismiss
only you can save me
so come on baby give me ...
and let's just talk about it
I've got to talk about it
Because nobady knows
somebody nearly fell
...
and ringing PB
history shows
so tell me
that's how I nearly fell
by ringing PB
so baby show and tell
Oh ...(?)
from:http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&q=p
avlov%27s+bell
Pavlov's Bell
Oh Mario - Sit here by the window
Stay here till we reach Idaho
And when we go, hold my hand on takeoff
Tell me what I already know
That we can't talk about it
No, we can't talk about it
Because nobody knows
That's how I nearly fell
Trading clothes and ringing Pavlov's bell
History shows there's not a chance in hell
But oh Mario - We're only to Ohio
It's kinda getting harder to breathe
I won't let it show -
I'm all about denial
But can't denial let me believe
That we could talk about?
But we can't talk about it
Because nobody knows
That's how I nearly fell
Trading clothes and ringing Pavlov's bell
History shows, but rarely shows it well
Well, well, well...
Oh Mario - why if this is nothing
I'm finding it so hard to dismiss
If you're what I need then only you can save me
So come on baby - give me the fix
And let's just talk about it
I've got to talk about it
Because nobody knows
that's how I nearly fell
Trading clothes and ringing Pavlov's bell
History shows, like it was show and tell
So tell me Mario
from: http://www.drivingsideways.com/lislyrics.html
[> [> Yes! -- Deb, 11:04:29 11/16/02 Sat
Stimulus/Response. Thanks for the lyrics!
[> [> Re: TV Guide's description for this Tuesday;
doing some background research, Part II (spoilers???) --
MaeveRigan, 13:16:13 11/16/02 Sat
Listen to the song on Aimee Mann's website, here:
http://www.aimeemann.com/home.html
Oh, good grief, buy the album! :-)
[> The next epp seems to be Spike-centric, Spike may
be referenced to song title..... -- Briar Rose,
15:06:54 11/16/02 Sat
It is also pretty obvious that Willow and Dawn will have to
talk about what happened in CWDP. Now how much they actually
share will be the interesting part. But I doubt that Willow
or Dawn NOT mention the evilness of the final messages.
Wilow tends to "tell all" even when she shouldn't and Dawn
is still too whiny not to blurt that Buffy hates her, "even
Mom told me so!"
My odds are on them figuring out that both manifestations
are from the same BB/Morphy and they will make sure that
they work on spells to un-mask it for future use. OMO
[> [> Dawn -- meritaten, 16:05:01 11/16/02
Sat
Whether it was the BB or actually Joyce that spoke to Dawn,
it made a huge impression on a young girl who still
desperately misses her mother. Also, she, unlike the others,
had to fight the "real" demon to hear her mother's message.
I couldn't blame her for believeing that it WAS indeed Joyce
that spoke to her. I'm not yet convinvced that it wasn't.
I think that Dawn will withhold the information 'Joyce' gave
her, and, only at the end of the season will she truly
evaluate it.
[> [> Dawn's not whiny! -- HonorH (with pushed
button), 19:37:32 11/16/02 Sat
No whining this year, except under a love spell! And no way
is she going to volunteer the information that "Joyce" gave
her.
(still wishing we could exorcise the word "whiny" from the
board . . .)
[> [> [> No, she's just expressive! --
Dariel, 10:34:02 11/17/02 Sun
You know, the Scoobies, especially Buffy, aren't so big with
the emoting. They all hold things back. So Dawn just seems
whiny, or overly emotional perhaps, because she actually
expresses what she feels in the moment.
Sort of like how some people called Amber Benson "fat." She,
a rather normal-sized young woman, could only seem fat when
compared with the other "extremely slender" (to use a polite
term) actresses on BtVS.
[> [> [> [> Okay - how about "overwrought",
HonorH?*S* -- Briar Rose, 14:43:10 11/17/02 Sun
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