November 2002
posts
Another Question about Angel and the Visions, spoilers
for season 4 so far (very mild) -- Wolfhowl3,
23:29:27 11/11/02 Mon
Angel is a champion for the Power's that Be, and he needs
someone to take on the Visions so that Angel can get his
Orders (as it were).
I'm wondering, ever since Angel got back from is enforced
Bath, why has he not received one Message from the Powers?
Did they give up on him, pick another Champion, and write
off the whole of the Plane of Earth to focus their energies
on some other Plane?
And if the Powers did give up on Earth, maybe that is why
the let Cordy go, and might even explain why the Hellmouth
is so uppity lately.
Please Share your thoughts
Wolfie
[> My theory -- Masq, 07:34:49 11/12/02 Tue
My theory is Cordelia was removed from Earth back in
"Tommorrow" because Angel was on the verge of a true
happiness moment, between Connor playing the doting son and
Cordelia wanting to meet him on the bluffs to exchange vows
of love.
They wisked Cordelia away, but she IS the vision-girl and
they couldn't keep her away. They may have taken away her
memory so that she and Angel didn't pick up where they left
off, romantically speaking.
Now that Cordelia has her memory back and has had a vision
of a big scary, I think she has her own reasons to keep her
distance from Angel and do the job she was given the visions
to do.
Therapy with the Undead (Spoilers for 7.7) --
Cecilia, 03:26:29 11/12/02 Tue
So Buffy had an impromptu therapy session with a vamp. Very
revealing, for the audience that is, as she expressed her
"true" thoughts and feelings in a way that she never has
before. Why she has been so closed off with her friends, why
she treated Spike the way she did, why she took up with
Spike in the first place. Not that we the audience, the
voyeurs into the lives of these character's, didn't at least
see some of these things as they really were all along.
Still it was an interesting view into Buffy's psyche. What
stood out the most for me was the perspective that she has
become they way she's become not because of the
death/resurrection thing but because she has been living
this life, the life of a slayer, for seven years. Death was
merely the catalyst that sent her
depression/angst/inferiority about her superiority complexes
(etc) into overdrive. That says a lot about the character.
It also speaks volumes about the theme for the season. Power
and what having it does to you. Not just the old adage of
"Absolute power corrupts absolutely". More about the weight
of power on the soul and how we perceive the power within
ourselves.
As for the ecounter of the others. What was real and what
wasn't? It seems very obvious by the end of Willow's
conversation with "Cassie" that we are to realize that the
"power of evil" (for lack of a better term) was only
interested in either messing with Willow's mind or getting
her out of the way. It seems also very true that Spike is
indeed "siring his way through Sunnydale". That reveal was
startling and unexpected and I believe meant to throw us off
in more ways than one. Now that he has a soul he is doing
what he has been unable to do for the last 2years. Does this
mean that his being souled allows him to accept the pain
that the chip/lack of a soul couldn't allow him to do? Is he
doing this for the same reasons that Buffy took up with him
in the first place? To feel the pain because that is what he
only thinks he has the right to feel. Or is it further proof
of the power of evil on either a)controlling his actions or
b)manipulating the circumstances surrounding these
characters. Did they ever explain why Spike was in the
basement in the first place? "I have no where else to go".
Doesn't seem very plausible to me, more like "I don't
deserve to go anyplace else, this place torments me and that
is what I deserve."
This brings us to Dawn. Was her encounter "true"? Was the
evil preventing her mother from communicating with her or
was it all a game, a pretense so that she would believe the
words her "mother" would later speak? Was she supposed to be
fooled into thinking that going through that terror and
adversity was supposed to reward her?
Where was Xander? Xander, the most down to earth, tell it
like it is, voice of reason, "heart" of the group. Was his
absence as telling as the presence of Buffy, Willow and
Dawn? Is there a reason why the power of evil did not try,
at least not yet, to manipulate him? Would he have seen
through to the heart of the matter? Is Xander the one with
no real weakness because he has no real strengths?
Lastly we come to the nerd trio from last year. Clearly the
power of evil was manipulating Andrew, obstensibly to
release it from where ever it truly resides. My question is,
why Andrew? Is there any reason why this evil could not have
manipulated someone, anyone else? Or is there a special
connection to persons who were at least at some time in
their lives evil? Is that, right now, the range of it's
influence? Puts the direct contact of Willow and the
(apparent) manipulation of Spike into a new light.
More questions than answers from this episode and that's
what I like. Leaves you wanting more.
[> So, so spoilery! (Spoilers for tonight's ep) --
Rahael, 03:48:31 11/12/02 Tue
Okay, for the first time reading a wildfeed I laughed out
loud once and sniffled a little too.
On one level it advanced the plot, the big bad at work in
Sunnydale, etc, but on another level it explored the idea of
death, emotion, sadness.....
"Let the dead bury the dead"
Digging up the corpse of the past, of loved ones, of past
events ....it causes pain.
What Dawn went through? I have had similar dreams. I have
had dreams that my mother came back. But she when she did,
it was just a corpse. Here ME was hammering it home -
sometimes, your loved ones just don't come back. Sometimes
they are just dead forever.
On the plot level, Willow's conversation proved that as
Giles said she is indeed needed, for the evil to want her
out of the way. It also shows that she needs to use the
power she has, not turn her back on it.
More thoughts later.
[> Therapy with the Undead (Spoilers for 7.7) (first
thoughts) -- grifter, 05:10:28 11/12/02 Tue
Buffy: I think her conversation with the "Psyche 101 - Vamp"
served to clue in the part of the audience that didn´t get
her actions last season. Most of what she said has been
discussed on this board last season I think, but apparently
a large part of the viewership didn´t understand her back
then.
The question for me is if the vamp wasn´t a manifestation of
Morphy ("The Evil" or whatever you like to call him) too? He
could make good use the information he got out of Buffy in
the upcoming battle against her.
Spike: I suspect that it was Morphy all along, running
around siring vampires, posing as Spike. If he really is
"the first evil" or "ultimate evil" or whatever he should be
able to sire vampires himself.
Willow: When Cassie first told her to stop using Magic I kew
it was really Morphy talking to her. Willow will play a
crucial part in stopping him, that´s why Giles sent her home
early, and that´s why Morphy tried to talk her into
suicide.
Dawn: At first I thought it was clear that it was Morphy who
was posing as Joyce. Planting the seeds of mistrust of her
sister in Dawn (who´ll also play a crucial part in defeating
him) would seem like the thing to do if I were an evil
entity trying to defeat the Scoobies.
Andrew/Jonathan: I think Morphy needed a virgin sacrifice
for the (release-?) ritual. Andrew was easy to manipulate
for Morphy and with Jonathan he had the perfect clueless
victim. Also, if all else had failed, he could have made
Andrew sacrifice himself instead. "There is another"
indeed.
[> Please take this to the spoiler board - it hasn't
even aired in the US! -- Caroline, 06:30:12 11/12/02
Tue
I'd like to make a request. Could we please not discuss
episodes on this board before they have aired in the US? I
am assuming that the majority of board denizens live in
America and those of us who wish to remain unspoiled have a
rather tough time when there is already a thread on
tonight's ep. I've been away from the board for a few day
and came to read what people said about Angel - not discuss
tonight's Buffy. If others see nothing wrong with this, I
guess I'll have to suck it up but I still don't like it!
[> [> Fair enough, but... -- CaptainPugwash,
06:40:25 11/12/02 Tue
I live in the UK, but get my Buffy fix via USENet - I've
just watched 7x07, and am dying to hear people's
thoughts.
I suppose asking people to wait isn't unreasonable, but it
isn't as if anyone ever forces people to read a spoiler
thread.
[> [> [> Some corrections -- Caroline,
06:49:25 11/12/02 Tue
1. This is not a spoiler board. If you look above you can
see that there are two links for spoiler boards - one at voy
and one at yahoo.
2. Spoiler policy is not to put plots points in titles.
'Therarpy with the Undead' qualifies as a major plot point
to me.
3. You can download episodes? It's a brave new world...(or
OCD! please note I am taking the piss!)
[> [> [> [> Whatever -- CaptainPugwash,
06:56:08 11/12/02 Tue
1. I know about the spoiler boards, but no-one uses
them.
2. Given the title of the episode, "Therapy with the Undead"
is hardly a spoiler. Would you complain if someone told you
that "Romeo & Juliet" was about two people that fell in
love.
3. You don't have to read posts with spoilers in! (I don't
think the title is a spoiler) It's a brave new world... (or
OCD! please note I am taking the piss!)
[> [> [> [> [> "I know about the spoiler
boards, but no-one uses them" -- Vickie, 19:28:36
11/12/02 Tue
This just isn't true. The spoiler trollops forum is buzzing
and busy. They'll love discussing whatever juicy stuff you
have to offer.
Not that I read it anymore. Honest. Never do. That stuff
just sits in my in box. ;-)
[> [> [> [> [> [> It's not so much
that -- Rahael, 02:50:03 11/13/02 Wed
I was just amazed after reading the wildfeed. I couldn't
wait for the discussion to start on the board. However, I
did go to the Spoiler group forum to make my first ever post
there, I was so enthusiastic.
I came here to look at what was going on, and I noticed that
Cecilia had started an early thread. I thought she made nice
points, so I posted a post which not only said it was about
"tonight's ep" but had spoilers all over it. I thought this
was allowed, even though this is probably one of the rare
occasions I have ever discussed 'future spoilers' - though I
am a spoiler trollop, I don't actually spend that much
analysing spoilers. I find them ultimately misleading. The
metaphoric goodness lies in the writing and dialogue and the
subtleties of the actual ep. That's what interests me. I am
interested in spoilers because I am the kind of person who
always checks the back of the book midway.
I spent quite a lot of time reading through the spoiler
forum yesterday. It seems a great place ot pick up articles,
spoilers and reviews, due in no small part by all the work
that Rufus and Beast seem to put into it. However, in terms
of discussion and analysis, I know that this place is
invaluable. It just isn't a substitute . I am
interested in the thoughts of the vast majority of the
people here who don't read spoilers. I actually am not that
interested in plot details, more the thematic and metaphoric
significance, and this is the place.
Bah. Bah!! I was just all excited by reading the wildfeed.
You know, by the time I actually get to see the episode
months later, everything will have been discussed and no
one's interested anymore. I just have to keep going "wow" to
myself.
I notice that in the general forum (it's British) I lurk in
they have a thread up to discuss Buffy Season 6. But I'm
frightened of all of them! They aren't ashamed to be rude to
new people or to tell them to eff off. Or point and laugh
and ridicule if you have a different opinion. And since they
are only now seeing Season 6, there too, it's useless.
Rahael pissed off because most of her favourite posters are
on a completely different Buffy watching schedule to her. In
fact, is there anyone who is on my schedule?
Though one bright spot - I'll get to see all Season 7 eps to
date this weekend! Yay! And I'll be watching with a very
insightful poster. This is cool.
[> [> [> Re: Fair enough, but... (buffy 7.7
spoiler) -- frisby, 18:18:27 11/12/02 Tue
i'm dying too. i really feel the need to hear others'
reactions. i'm quite tied up not knowing what to think. i do
sense another uber-buffy in the making though, one involving
dawn this time, but the role of spike remains unknown.
[> [> My intention was -- Rahael, 07:03:20
11/12/02 Tue
That these posts could be read later today, when people had
seen the ep. I may be mistaken but I thought that the policy
here was that spoilers be clearly marked, not that we should
have no spoilers at all. If posted on the spoiler board, the
discussion would never begin because once the ep had aired,
who would want to discuss it there, when nearly everyone on
the board would be discussing it here?
If we are going to ban all spoilers for eps not yet seen,
does that include spoiler spec that people do occasionally
indulge in here, and hopefully mark clearly? What about
different viewing times in the US?
[> [> [> Re: My intention was -- Caroline,
07:23:20 11/12/02 Tue
In line with current spoiler policy, I would have liked this
to be labeled as a future episode. I don't always keep up
with the numbers, so it would have been nice to have
'spoiler for tonight's episode 7.7' or 'spoiler for future
episode 7.7' in the title. This would have been in keeping
with the spoiler policy which I have just re-read and would
have saved some of us (like me) from even clicking on the
thread. I also hoped that in adding my original post, those
of us who are waiting for the episode tonight would be
warned away.
I have no problem with spoiler spec, I like reading people's
theories but I just don't wish to know what is actually
going to happen. As for the different airing times in the
US, I am under the impression that given the time
difference, everyone has seen it by 11pm EST. Hopefully
those on the west coast are too busy watching to start
reading the board.
Okay, I'm proofing this and realizing it sounds quite US-
centric - am I right in thinking the majority of board
participants are in the US? If not, I'll just let this
thread die quietly...
[> [> [> [> Yeah, I agree, numbers are
difficult - which is why my post had spoilers written all
over it -- Rahael, 07:41:34 11/12/02 Tue
I find ep numbers difficult to follow too. I think the
Cecilia's subject line/spoiler warning was on grey
ground.
However, I only posted 10 minutes after, and I hoped that my
spoilery subject line might have warned people to stay away
from that thread.
Oh, I've just seen Masq's post. I think I've misunderstood
until now what 'spoiler free' means. Are we to have no
future spoilers at all? I come down hard on unlabeled
spoilers as much as anyone but I had always been under the
impression that as long as clear warning was given, even a
plot point or spec that you wanted to add that was in some
way...ahem....informed by spoilers were okay with
warning.
I say this because I've seen a few quite naughty posters
post clearly spoiled spec without in anyway indicating
it.
However, if this is not the case, and even future spoilers
are treading the no man's land, I won't post future
spec/spoiler warning type posts.
[> [> [> [> [> grr! I dropped a tag! -
- Rahael, 07:44:06 11/12/02 Tue
[> [> [> [> [> Um... that is what I said
in my post... -- Masq, 10:51:31 11/12/02 Tue
Spoilers are OK with the appropriate warning. That is what I
said, right?
"Spoiler-free" board means that all spoilers are marked as
specifically as possible. "Future BtVS episode spoilers",
"Future AtS Spoilers", "Spoilers for tonight's episode of
Buffy" (meaning, already aired in the US), and not giving
away major plot points in subject lines.
This is a summary of the FAQ: Any spoilers are fine, as long
as they are hidden behind warning subject lines that allow
people to make informed choices about clicking on them.
[> [> [> [> It's already aired in some
places -- Blood Luvin Girl, 10:04:14 11/12/02 Tue
Okay, I'm proofing this and realizing it sounds quite US-
centric - am I right in thinking the majority of board
participants are in the US? If not, I'll just let this
thread die quietly...
I live in Canada and though I haven't seen the episode yet I
know that in some parts of Canada it aired on Monday, so
there are people who have seen it already. I go to a couple
boards and happen to know that because they taunt us fellow
posters with the fact they get to see it a day early.
[> [> [> Officially... -- Masquerade,
07:29:17 11/12/02 Tue
The spoiler policy on the FAQ says that spoilers for future
episodes are allowed as long as they are marked as "future"
spoilers, in some way indicating that they are episodes not
yet aired. This might have been a little confusing in the
present case with the episode numbering convention that's
popped up on the board (e.g., "is tonight's episode 7 or
8?")
There is also a request in the FAQ not to put plot points in
subject lines. In this case, the transgression is a little
vague, especially for us unspoiled types. We have no frame
of reference for seeing the spoilery nature of it,
necessarily. I've posted on this before. Sometimes I get
more spoiled by posts saying "spoiler in the subject line
above!" than I would have if the subject line had just sat
there unmentioned.
Still, the no spoilery subject line rule applies.
A lot of this is a judgment call sometimes, and it makes it
more difficult to run a spoiler-free board. I'm sorry if
this policy seems a little Nazi to some people. The majority
of the board wants spoiler-free, as does its board moderator
(that'd be me), and we do the best we can to follow rules
that are sometimes hard to apply.
: )
[> [> [> [> Is it possible... --
ZachsMind, 09:41:49 11/12/02 Tue
Can anyone or HAS anyone thought about creating a
spoilerzone that is a separate voy.com board? I've tried
using Yahoo Groups and whenever I do my spam at my email
address increases exponentially, so I can't participate in
the Trollop mailing list. A voy.com forum separate from this
one or Cross & Stake which was specifically open to
allow spoilers up front would seem to be the logical
solution.
[> [> [> [> [> We have one- but it's a bit
underused -- Tchaikovsky, 10:04:17 11/12/02 Tue
At http://www.voy.com/83370/
I think the problem, as Rahael highlighted, is that spoilers
are not always spoilers. Cecilia's post, while possibly
inappropriate now, would be fine in 24 hours. And if you
post something big on the voy spoiler board, nobody except
those willing to be CONSTANTLY spoiled to any degree,
(mentioning no names, looking in no particular direction,
Rufus, but to an extent me also), are going to be able to
reply. It's one of those tricky questions.
TCH
[> [> [> [> [> [> Sitting here looking
at the voy.com signup page... -- ZachsMind, 11:47:39
11/12/02 Tue
I'm finding myself feeling like Kevin Bacon in "Stir of
Echoes." I start even thinking about filling out the fields
on this page to create YET ANOTHER BUFFY FORUM and
everything I look at goes red and alarms go off in my head.
"Danger Will Robinson! Danger, danger! Red Alert! Proceed
At Your Own Risk! Something Wicked this way comes! From
Beneath You it DEVOURS! Whirrrr-whirrrr-whirrr! BEEP!
BEEP!" etc. etc. Could be an omen.
Don't think I'd make a very good forum monitor. I'd either
let people get away with murder or get a big head and become
a corrupted dictator or something. Either way, absolute
power corrupts and there's no way to please everyone. Converse Buffyverse
looks like it could be the ideal place if people
actually posted there but then they wouldn't be posting
here, so that's a trade off - people splitting their online
time between forums. A friend just told me about *yet
another* online Buffyish forum, but the system used to
organize the spoilers there, well let's just say I'm running
out of aspirin.
I think what's appealing to some people about coming
here to talk about spoilage is that there's actually
an audience here already and if you post something you might
get a response. If you go to another forum you can't talk to
the people here, and it's fun to talk to the people here
about nonspoiler stuff so some people wanna connect with
those same minds. But then some of those same minds don't
wanna get infected with spoilage. It's a very
difficult conundrum. Even if one marks their post as
potentially spoilerific, there's a good chance they'll get
responses from people who didn't want to read the spoilage.
Either they inevitably accidently stumble on it regardless
of the warnings given, or there ARE people out there who
don't believe ANYONE should indulge in spoilage and actively
seek out such things to ruin the fun for those who do. Such
people mean well. They're trying to save us from ourselves,
I suppose.
It's a shame there's not one place on the 'Net where all the
spoilers know to go and the nonspoilers know to avoid. Some
place that's properly labelled and publicized as such. I
mean as this season progresses, both for Angel & Buffy,
the spoilage for this season's going to cause consternation
and great gnashing of teeth if we can't get it right. You
think the argument's bad now? The next few months will prove
to be very interesting. From beneath you, it devours.
Some upcoming tidbits of info will literally spoil it big
for anyone. Moreso than usual. It'll be a mental minefield
coming up. It may even be that those of us who normally
relish spoilage will learn a tidbit about how the upcoming
seasons end, and find ourselves feeling like the bad guys at
the end of Raiders of the Lost Ark.
"It's so beaauooteeful! ...AAAAAAIIIEEE!!" *heads
melt & explode*
An example might be conclusive proof to the life and death
of Buffy, or whether SMG really is leaving at the end of the
season. When that bit of spoilage is confirmed, once it hits
the Internet there's gonna be some people very excited to
learn the truth, and there's gonna be some people who will
want to reach through the computer screen and bang people's
heads in. I guess the showdown's inevitable, but it'd be
nice if we could find some more acceptable solution other
than what's happening now, cuz I don't think it's working.
Is segregation the answer? Or would that be an affront to
Spoilers Rights?
I don't know. I give. My head hurts. I'm gonna go languish
in the high school basement for awhile and talk to myself.
Chao!
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Sitting
here looking at the voy.com signup page... -- Blood Luvin Girl,
12:16:49 11/12/02 Tue
I'm a big spoiler whore or trollop, whatever term you prefer
to use. I go to another board that has a clear spoiler
section, and it's not so bad, but it is a B/S board and the
spoilers are always being looked at from the point of veiw
of a B/S shipper. And though they are very intellegent and
considerate at that board, I do like to hear what the other
shippers or those who follow no ships think of the
spoilers.
I would love to discuss future spoilers here, but from what
I could see of this board, it is not really done. I checked
out this boards spoiler section and it seemed pretty barren.
The was nothing new and what was already there wasn't very
much.
So I often find my self in a bind for posting many of my
theories involve knowledge of future spoilers and it become
difficult to post for fear of letting something slip.
It's just an unfortunate situation. I have no wish to ruin
things for anyone. My own brother is VERY against knowing
any spoilers and my Dad likes them as much as I do and he
learns of all of the spoilers through me. I have to find
moments when I can tell my Dad without spoiling my brother.
So it's a problem I have to deal with on a daily basis even
in real life.
[> [> [> [> [> The link is above, Zach
-- Masq, 10:22:46 11/12/02 Tue
| Voy Spoiler Board |
[> BIG APOLOGIES!!!Absolutely no spoilers in following
post! -- Cecilia, 13:25:24 11/12/02 Tue
Please, let me apologize. I usually don't post until
Wednesday mornings. Firstly I catch the episode broadcast
over the Atlantic Satellite Network on Mondays at 7pm, not
on wildfeed. Secondly, I had to rise ridiculously early
(5am)this morning and when I was trying to wake up
(ingesting caffiene at a rapid pace I might add) my mind
started wandering to the episode. As I have only been
catching the episodes on Monday nights for a short time I,
in my semi-conscious state, actually forgot this was Tuesday
morning and not Wednesday morning. It was a mistake, one
that I will be very conscious of and careful about in the
future, I assure you. I know that this doesn't take back the
fact that some people were spoiled, however accidently and
unintentionally that was, but please be assured I sincerely
regret my error. I simply want you all to know that it was,
indeed, an error and not callous and inconsiderate behaviour
on my part.
As far as the subject line, I will refrain in the future
from putting any title in my subject line at all. In my
defense on that aspect of it though, I don't believe it was
spoilery in and of itself. You wouldn't know how it spoils
the episode unless you a)saw the episode (in which case the
spoilery issue is a moot one) or b)read the post (please see
apology above). I personally do not see things like episode
titles as spoilers, nor do I see things like the teasers
they air after the episodes as spoilers or anything about an
upcoming episode which is no more informative than say what
you read in the TV Guide. However, I am aware that some
people do regard these as spoilers and I try to be very
aware and conscious of these facts in the subject lines.
That being said, I may be able to see where the subject line
I chose may be considered by some to be spoilery but I don't
think it is. The intention of the subject line, in my view,
is to tempt you into reading the post. We wouldn't be
posting here if we did not want our words to be read. But as
the contention over what constitutes a spoiler in the
subject line still seems to be questionable at best I will
in the future only number the episode and place the airdate
(the Tuesday night air date).
Again I offer my humblest and most sincere apologies and
hope you will forgive my error.
Cecilia
[> [> No worries... -- Masq, 13:57:16
11/12/02 Tue
You inadvertantly stepped in a pile of our personal doo-doo
with a slip of mind anyone could have made.
Spoilers are a difficult issue and the "to spoil or not to
spoil" issue gets people a'talkin' round here, but in 4-7
hours your particular transgression will be moot.
: )
[> [> [> Thank you -- Cecilia, 14:14:44
11/12/02 Tue
I just wanted you all to know that it was unintentionally
and that I do try to be careful about these things as I do
view the episodes a day earlier than most.
OT to Darby: Deception -- Sophist, 09:11:03
11/12/02 Tue
I think we agree on 2 points: natural selection can generate
behaviors that we, in an anthropomorphic way, describe as
"cheating"; and creatures such as sunfish which "cheat" do
not need or have an ethical system regarding their
behavior.
The only part of your argument to which I'm objecting is the
part that suggests that a particualr ethical belief
can itself be subject to natural selection. Again, I'm
talking about Mother Nature here, not the analogy to natural
selection offered by meme theory.
It's clear from your sunfish example that selection works on
the behavior in the absence of any ethical belief.
Therefore, we don't need to postulate a belief system as
subject to evolution in humans; the behavior alone
suffices.
As I've said, a belief is not a tangible "thing" that could
be selected. Physiologically, natural selection can only
operate (loosely speaking) on "organs" and the genes which
create them. Thus, in order for selection to operate on a
belief about "cheating", we'd have to hypothesize an organ
in the brain, generated by a set of genes, that causes the
belief, which in turn causes the behavior. While I'm
prepared to accept at least the possibility of an "organ"
that generates ethical systems on which selection has
operated (though the practical problems of proving this seem
insurmountable to me), I don't see any reason at all to
suppose that one particular belief (much less every
particular belief associated with an ethical system) has
such an "organ".
Just to make this clear, I should add that "cheating"
behavior can be caused by an "organ", though I certainly am
skeptical of many of the claims for such made by
evolutionary psychologists. It's that extra step of
postulating an organ for a belief that I'm objecting
to.
[> Re: OT to Darby: Deception -- Darby,
11:17:09 11/12/02 Tue
I see the belief as irrelevant. A societal rule - you don't
mess with a baboon more than three stations above you, for
instance, which is a definite trait in baboon troops -
requires no organ to generate it, because it's not inherited
that way. As with many behaviors in complex societal
vertebrates, it is largely learned, which means it's
inherited but not in any physical way or seated in some
physical "place.". Baboon societies work the way they do,
with a definite set of "rights" and "wrongs," not because
baboons are hard-wired to behave certain ways, but because
they are capable of learning behaviors from their societies.
Such behaviors are adaptive and subject to selection
pressures. Do baboons "believe" that challenging those of
higher strata is "bad"? Does that matter? It might to
humans, but only because we learn based upon a foundation of
"good" and "bad," but that's something that our brains could
very well be hard-wired to do - if "belief" is relevant to
human behavior, then it's a biological feature of being
human, a talent for abstraction beyond what we can see in
other species.
Let me try another tack. Neither humans nor baboons are born
with an instinctive grasp of their societal rules - they
inherit them after birth, during their development, passed
from adults as teaching. There are remarkable similarities
between basic baboon behavior and basic human behavior,
moreso than between humans and much more closely-related
apes. This is because the rules for behavior evolved as
adaptations to living in open grasslands. Convergent
evolution produces similar "answers" to similar problems,
and both species' societal structures, neither of which can
be connected to "organs," show this kind of convergence. The
only organ is a wonderfully flexible, programmable brain and
the ability to pass learned information on to offspring -
that limitation, along with physical differences in hip and
shoulder structure, may be the only reason why baboons
didn't develop the engineering capabilities that we did,
with all that leads to.
Humans would generally say that adherance to authority,
control of violence within groups but not so much beyond,
loyalty and sharing of responsibilities, even to the extent
of risking one's life for a group to make an abstract
statement, are associated with ethics and therefore some
sort of belief system. But I've just described a host of
baboon behaviors, evolved to deal with living in wide-open
spaces as a tightly-knit group (where lying is tolerated in
the young but not-so-much in mature members); from that
perspective it looks less belief-oriented and harder to
describe as ethics.
I know that complex behaviors don't follow the rules you've
set down, but I also believe that you've limited what
constitutes evolvable systems to physically-definable
traits, but they just don't work that way. Not in humans,
not in a whole host of primates, not in elephants, or
whales, or probably a bunch of bird species, including but
not limited to crows. Just the capability of passing traits
on through learning changes those "rules."
[> [> Now I'm puzzled -- Sophist, 12:44:39
11/12/02 Tue
My interpretation of your post is that you agree mostly with
me. You obviously think we're still disagreeing. Hmm.
I see the belief as irrelevant
Absolutely. I thought that was my original point. Beliefs,
per se, aren't selected. Behavior is selected.
if "belief" is relevant to human behavior, then it's a
biological feature of being human, a talent for abstraction
beyond what we can see in other species.
Again, I agree. This is what I thought I meant by the
tautological point that all human behavior is ultimately
related to our biological status as humans rather than some
other species.
Humans would generally say that adherance to authority,
control of violence within groups but not so much beyond,
loyalty and sharing of responsibilities, even to the extent
of risking one's life for a group to make an abstract
statement, are associated with ethics and therefore some
sort of belief system. But I've just described a host of
baboon behaviors, evolved to deal with living in wide-open
spaces as a tightly-knit group (where lying is tolerated in
the young but not-so-much in mature members); from that
perspective it looks less belief-oriented and harder to
describe as ethics.
I agree again. I thought your sunfish example already showed
this.
There are 2 statements you make that I would disgree
with:
the rules for behavior evolved as adaptations to living
in open grasslands
I disagree slightly. The rules for behavior are
mental constructs that we humans create in our brains. They
are never physical or real. They are purely mental
constructs. The behaviors themselves, putting aside whether
they follow rules, can be tangible and evolved. How much of
human behavior was actually selected and how much is a
function of brain plasticity is a factual question that
remains to be decided.
I should add to this that the similarity of behavior
(assuming there is any) between baboons and humans is not,
by itself, evidence of convergent evolution. The reason is
that we aren't yet capable of resolving the factual issue
noted above about brain plasticity. My big problem with
evolutionary psychologists is precisely that they are too
quick to make that logical leap without all the hard work
necessary to prove that conclusion.
I also believe that you've limited what constitutes
evolvable systems to physically-definable traits
In general, yes. However, evolution can operate (and has
operated) to create marvelously plasitic brains that are
capable of a wide range of behaviors. To the extent that
evolution created those brains, that is the physical system
that is subject to selection. However, if you want to
identify one particular behavior as "evolved", you have to
show that the brain was wired in some way to produce that
behavior (even probabilistically) rather than to be plastic.
It's that particular wiring that I would call an "organ" in
the brain.
A good example of such an organ would be language. The
capacity for language is an "organ" created by natural
selection. Of course, any particular language is a result of
plasiticity, not evolution. I think that's the same as my
distinction between beliefs (on which selection does not
operate) and behavior (on which it does).
[> [> [> Re: Now I'm puzzled - then my job is
done! -- Darby, 13:27:37 11/12/02 Tue
There's a real blind spot in your reasoning.
It's way, way too reductionist, and too locked into the
physical. There is nothing in evolution that requires
some physical seat for a trait. The requirements are: a
trait can be passed on in a trackable form; aspects of that
trait can change over time, in a way that allows changes to
be passed on; conditions of the environment select some
variants over others, due to survival and/or reproductive
advantages. There is no organ required, no DNA
required. In the same way that a self-replicating
machine could evolve both through alterations in its
hardware and modifications of software, so too can any
species with epigenetic capabilities. To say that the
capacity for language is evolvable but actual languages are
not is to put much too narrow a focus on it - an individual
is a combinations of traits inherited from forebears (not to
be confused with the Three Bears), and it matters not a whit
how they came to inherit those traits, so long as the traits
can produce advantages or disadvantages and can be passed
on. Otherwise, you'll have to differentiate between
instinctive, "hard-wired" behaviors and learned behaviors as
if they somehow affect fitness differently, and of course
they don't. And in this, it's the rules for behavior
that are inherited, and the behavior itself that becomes the
variants. But if the rules make sense adaptively, those
variants that most closely adhere to them will survive; if
the rules cease to make sense, those wider variants will be
more successful and will eventually produce a change in the
rules themselves. Darwinian species origination.
Can I learn from my family or tribe that members of other
tribes should be killed whenever possible, and pass that
trait on without it ever being part of my wiring? Are there
circumstances where that reaction will increase my fitness,
and some where it will work against me (and my clan),
affecting the chances of that variant going on to the next
generation? Over time, does that trait potentially change?
They may be apples and oranges, but they're all fruit (to
swipe a line from My Big Fat Greek Wedding). Do
societal behaviors change magically? What forces cause their
evolution, if not selection? Selection from without,
selection from within, it's all selection and differential
inheritance. Humans do not evolve as worms do (I actually
have done research, including evolutionary reasearch, on
several different worm phyla, but I've never let Sara eat my
subjects), because we have more ways to inherit than they do
- but the basic driving forces remain the same.
If selection can favor indivduals with an orange spot, it
can favor individuals in a group that stress loyalty above
all else.
[> [> [> [> LOL again -- Sophist,
14:20:14 11/12/02 Tue
There is irony, I suppose, in being accused of reductionism,
since that's precisely the sin I'm trying to avoid.
I see what you're saying (I think). The difference between
our views boils down to this: what characteristics are
subject to natural selection, and what are cultural
practices that I would describe as Lamarckian rather than
Darwinian. I'm limiting natural selection to traits, not
cultural practices. You're expanding Darwin to include them.
That's where we left off in the meme debate. Since I think
we've been over that ground, I'll let it drop at this
point.
I am glad to hear about the worms though. For your sake, for
Sara's sake and, perhaps, for their own.
[> [> [> [> [> One added point. --
Darby, 15:06:56 11/12/02 Tue
Remember, Lamarck gets a bad rap. He was just wrong in that
physical traits don't inherit the way he thought they did.
As the saying goes, his reasoning was excellent, it was only
his basic premise that was wrong. But alas, some traits
(including, weirdly enough, some genetic traits in bacteria)
follow distinctly Lamarckian patterns of inheritance. Once
you get past that, there's not much problem applying natural
selection to them. Heck, if he'd been right, there would
still have had to have been Darwin to sort it all out.
Have we noticed this? (Angel titles) -- Wisewoman,
15:29:09 11/12/02 Tue
Okay, maybe you guys have, but I just realised why I've been
more than normally confused lately.
Slouching toward Bethlehem = StB
Spin the Bottle = StB
D'ya think they're doin' it deliberately, just to mess with
our minds?
;o) dub
[> How could you accuse those poor misunderstood
writers of messing with our minds???..;) -- Rufus,
16:19:14 11/12/02 Tue
Next thing you know you will be saying they deliberately
mislead us about Spike going to Africa for a
soul......:):):):)
[> Coming next week (unlikely to be spoilers) --
Tyreseus, 16:44:51 11/12/02 Tue
Singing to Brzg-Hrbz
Lorne opens a portal to an alternate universe so the AI team
can regroup after big the apocalypse starts.
Spank the Baby
Cordelia tries to reconcile her motherly instincts with her
desire to boff Angel's 18-year-old son.
Superstrings to Bio-super-chemo-symmetry
Fred discovers that the all planes of reality exist as
living, organisms - some of which are predators.
Someone to Butter
Angelus returns, captures his former friends, and torments
them with mind games as he decides which to eat first.
[> [> Damnit! I was wasting time trying to get all
sixteen! -- d'Herblay, 16:49:18 11/12/02 Tue
Stealing Third Base
While instructing Cordelia in proper Wushu snake spear
technique, Connor's hand "slips."
Spanking the Buttmonkey
Cordelia has an unpleasant reminder of her past when a
desperate Xander comes to L.A.
Sue the Bastards!
Lilah and Wesley bring a workman's comp tort against Angel
Investigations.
Sailing to Byzantium
Wesley is approached by a knightly order, but what do they
intend towards Angel?
[> [> [> Re: Damnit! I was wasting time trying
to get all sixteen! -- Alvin, 17:06:34 11/12/02
Tue
Soothing Touch Balm
Liah decides to become really evil and starts selling
Avon.
Scorching the Beach
Angel forgets he's allergic to sunlight and takes the gang
to Hawaii.
[> [> ROFLMAO! OMG, you guys are nuts -- dub
;o), 19:18:22 11/12/02 Tue
I haven't laughed this hard in months. Thanks, guys.
;o)
Buffy 7.7 Question (spoiler) -- frisby, 18:05:49
11/12/02 Tue
What happened to Spike's chip? How did he bite that young
woman? Or maybe it wasn't Spike? My world is very fragile
just now (after just finished 7.7). Wow! Wow! Wow! Wow! Wow!
Wow! Wow! Wow! Wow! Wow! Wow! Wow! Wow! Wow! Wow! Wow! Wow!
Wow! Wow! Wow! Wow! Wow! Wow! Wow! Wow! Wow! Wow! Wow!
[> Conclusions I have reached (spoilers for 7.7 and
speculation for what's to come) -- Apophis, 18:19:57
11/12/02 Tue
1) Buffy is agnostic (thought it was worth mentioning, as I
remember a "Buffy is a Christian" thread earlier)
2) Vampires are connected to something (like evil Tao or
something).
3) The First (I think that limb's pretty sturdy at this
point) is trying to break up the gang, much like Adam in
season 4.
4) The First (see above, re: limbs) has somehow disabled
Spike's chip and warped his mind, pressing him into
His/Her/Its service.
5) Warren, Cassie, and Joyce were the First, meaning
He/She/It can manifest in different places at the same
time.
6) Now, for the big one: I believe, based on "Cassie's"
speech at the end, that the First is planning on dying and
taking everyone with Him/Her/It. "Cassie" said "she" was
done with both the "mortal coil" and the balance between
good and evil. "She" also mentioned a big finish, which I
believe means the First will take the universe with It when
It goes (not too outre a conclusion, I'll give you). I
believe this means that the balance between good and evil is
somehow intrinsic to the existence of creation. If the First
is planning on somehow destroying Itself, it stands to
reason that all of reality would go with it. And, if I were
the ultimate incarnation of evil, that's how I'd want to go
out.
Granted, this could all go out the window next week. Still,
I think my deductions are within the realm of
reasonable.
[> [> Re: Conclusions I have reached (spoilers for
7.7 and speculation for what's to come) -- frisby,
18:40:30 11/12/02 Tue
thank you for your deductions. thoughts off the top of my
head. on 1) the powers (plural) that be seems to inveigh
against any supreme power (singular). on 2) what is buffy
connected to if willow is connected to earth? yes of 3). I'm
lost on spike and need emergency help. my son says since the
love of buffy and spike will save the universe the first is
here trying to break that love. on 5) yes it was all the
1st, fooling dawn into not trusting buffy, and failing with
willow. on 6) the big one, yes it's all about the final
good/evil battle and what follows (either all good or all
evil) or or or
and again i'm reduced to wow wow wow
[> [> [> Re: Conclusions I have reached
(spoilers for 7.7 and speculation for what's to come) --
rose, 18:57:21 11/12/02 Tue
How could that be spike isn't he supposed to be living with
Xander?
where WERE Xander and Anya for that matter.
And what supream idiot covered the hellmouth with nothin but
dirt?
if it was really spike maybe hes just finally snapped due to
nothin being good enough for the sg.
But why whould he sire a vamp who could possibly tell
Buffy?! he is not that stupid impulsive but not
ignorant.
less he WANTS to fight her of course betting he would win if
she wasent in the title.
[> [> [> [> How was Spike supposed to know. .
. -- Finn Mac Cool, 19:12:28 11/12/02 Tue
That the guy he sired knew Buffy, or that Buffy would bring
him up?
[> [> [> [> [> Re: How was Spike supposed
to know. . . -- rose, 19:26:41 11/12/02 Tue
sunnydale exists deep under murphy's law.
but your right it probly never occured espessialy if the
evil was messing with him.
but why sire them and risk it or is he just making
minions?
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: How was Spike
supposed to know. . . -- Finn Mac Cool, 19:48:17
11/12/02 Tue
Considering Spike left the little vampy to be buried in a
town he knows to have an active Slayer around, he obviously
didn't really care if the guy survived or not. He was even
fooling around with a someone else the night he rose from
the ground.
~If Webb survived~
Webb: Spike! Don't you care anymore? After all that exchange
of blood, you can't even make it for the night of my
rising?
Spike: Well, I had a thing. Nice girl from the Bronze was
asking for a. . .
Webb: You bastard! You cheated on me and bit someone
else!!!
Spike: Hello, I'm a vampire, it's what we do. We kill.
Speaking of which- (Jabs a stick through Webb's heart).
[> [> I think I understand...(7.7 spoilers) --
darrenK, 18:41:41 11/12/02 Tue
"I'm very protective of her," was Amber Benson's quote about
why she wouldn't return this season as Tara.
And, assuming it was supposed to be her in the library
talking to Willow, I think her instincts were spot-on.
There's something very cool about the idea that whatever
evil Willow was talking to could use Tara's name and say it
was in communication with her, but couldn't use her image,
couldn't pretend to be her.
That maybe Tara was so good as to be beyond that evil's
power.
dK
[> [> [> Re: I think I understand...(7.7
spoilers) -- Frank Brubaker, 19:30:55 11/12/02
Tue
I don't know if I like that idea that Tara was too "good" to
be replicated--somehow I don't see Joyce being so evil that
she could be duplicated (assuming a certain amount of evil
is necessary for a person to be duplicated by this season's
Big Bad), yet Tara escaping being copied. It just doesn't
set right with me.
Of course, I'm rather fond of the idea that the entity that
Willow angered when she attempted to raise Tara after she
got shot has Tara's soul somewhere, torturing it for all
eternity, or at least until it gets a chance to grab Willow
when she dies. Now THAT would be a guilt trip for
Willow!
[> [> She might believe in God, just no definate
proof -- Charlemagne20,
20:18:38 11/12/02 Tue
She might not.
It was just pointing out it might be a matter of faith.
Notice she gave the "pause"
like
"There's some evidence but nothing you could sink your fangs
into"
-Charlie
[> [> [> She never has faced The Powers, has
she? -- FriarTed,
02:32:08 11/13/02 Wed
Here Angel & Cordy have personal audiences with TPTB
while Buffy & Scoobies, who really could use Divine
Guidance, get nada! Sheesh!
That's what comes of putting Willow's Judaism to no use- she
goes cavorting after Goyish Deities like Osiris & Hecate
when she should be dancing thru the Sephiroth in service to
Adonai & Shekina.
[> [> [> [> Buffy and the PTB's -- Masq,
05:03:31 11/13/02 Wed
The only time Buffy has ever mentioned the Powers that Be
was in "I WIll Remember You", when she visited Angel in LA
and he was turned human. Buffy and Angel have a brief
conversation about whether to trust the Oracles, who claim
that Angel is a normal human man who won't lose his soul. In
the dialogue, it sounds like she believes in the Powers, she
only doubts the Oracles are their spokespeople:
Angel: "I-I think, maybe we'd be asking for trouble
rushing back into things. (Buffy looks at him)
Not that I don't want to - rush. Believe me, I do."
Buffy: "Right. You spoke to the Oracles and they
said you were cured for good. But how do we know that
they really speak for the Powers? I mean they could be
- pranksters."
Angel: "Or there could be another loophole."
Buffy: "Exactly. And then the two of us would be
in even deeper and it’s 'grr' all over again."
Angel: "It would be smart to wait a while. See
if this mortal thing takes."
Buffy: "Exactly. And even if it does, it's still
complicated."
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Buffy and the PTB's
-- aliera, 09:15:00 11/13/02 Wed
That last line is particularly interesting. And boy, in text
form decidedly unloverlike. I can't remember Season 2 very
well; where did Buffy think Whistler was from?
[> [> [> [> [> [> New Jersay I'd
imagine -- Charlemagne20,
11:21:42 11/13/02 Wed
Why should he be from anybody, champions of good don't have
to be inspired by more than a belief in the power of
good
[> [> [> [> [> Is making a comment to a
representative of the PTB's sort of like mentioning
them.... -- Rufus, 06:00:57 11/15/02 Fri
Becoming 2
Whistler: Maybe I should ask, what are you prepared to give
up?
Buffy: (exhales) You don't have anything useful to tell me,
do you?
What are you, just some immortal demon sent down to even the
score
between good and evil?
Whistler: (impressed) Wow. Good guess. (grins)
Buffy: (steps up to him) Well, why don't you try getting off
your
immortal ass and fighting evil once in a while? 'Cause I'm
sick and
tired of doing it myself.
Whistler: In the end, you're always by yourself. You're all
you've got.
That's the point.
Buffy: (disgusted) Spare me. (starts to leave)
Whistler: The sword isn't enough. You gotta be ready.
(raises his
voice) You gotta know how to use it!
I know they don't use the term PTB but it is implied by what
she thinks Whistler is.
[> [> Fascinating -- Spike Lover, 10:27:11
11/15/02 Fri
Your facts make a pretty good argument that the BB might be
the First Slayer itself. Did it ever really die if it just
jumps from Slayer to Slayer? Is that why those girls in
foreign countries are being killed? Would they have been
next in line to be called? Will Faith suddenly show up and
either kill more of the line or die? Will Buffy self
destruct? This is actually quite fascinating...
[> I wonder about that and (SPOILERS 7.7 and 7.8
preview) -- Doriander, 18:53:03 11/12/02 Tue
Where’s the freaking hell is my Xander????? He’s not Spike’s
undead housemate now is he? Breathe. Breathe.
(Although....ahem) He’s not in next week’s previews. UPN
previews are misleading. UPN previews are misleading.
I’m reeling for the fates of my two boys. Spike is up for
stakage for sure. I'm invigorated that he's got his bite
back, but bummed if he were under control. And Xander where
are you? Gotta say, Spike chooses his siree well. I loved
the vamp shrink.
Wow.
Azura Skye is freaky.
Poor Dawnie. Poor Wil. Poor Buff.
POOR JONATHAN.
“We’re outlaws with a heart of gold” Methinks Andrew is a
Firefly fan.
Scott Hope came out. Hee. How meta.
This is too good.
Off to rewatch.
[> Re: Buffy 7.7 Question (spoiler) -- Random,
19:21:46 11/12/02 Tue
And a heartfelt second to your "Wow!" Loved the episode, and
am probably going to re-watch it tomorrow. Maybe twice.
This episode is why I don't read spoilers. I was riveted and
probably got eye-strain from sitting right up at the screen.
Anyhoo, I need a lot of "think-time" but I would like to
note that the distinction between reality and illusion is
very deliberately delineated in this episode. We need not
posit that Spike's actions are a figment of the unnamed
Evil's foray into psychological torture for the gang. If we
are to believe what we see -- and BtVS has never given us a
reason to doubt the "objective eye" of the camera, though it
gives us considerable reason to doubt our interpretations
therefrom -- we are now faced with an Evil whose power
extends beyond the mental. Recall that the First Evil (the
consensual, if not confirmed, identity of this shape
shifter) seemed ineffectual in the extreme. It went after an
extremely vulnerable mind, post-traumatic Angel, and even
then could only drive him to a passive suicide. Now consider
what's happened in 7.7. The vulnerable minds are once again
prey -- weak-willed Andrew, grieving and guilt-ridden
Willow, perennial little-sis-to-the-Slayer-issues poster
child Dawn, and, of course, Spike. It's all very formulaic
for a psychological evil, except...the house and Dawn both
seem to have suffered some very real damage, and Spike seems
to have overcome his chippiness. Its ploy seems to be much
the same as both the First Evil of "Amends" and Adam/Spike's
of "The Yoko Factor." But is it Buffy the Evil fears? The
move against Buffy was weak at best -- putting doubt about
Spike's reliability was the only real thrust. The
psychoanalysis really didn't amount to much. And it's an
open question as to whether anything Buffy encountered was
related to the Evil. It's obviously afraid of Willow (who
illustrated perfectly why you should stop and take a moment
to think once those imaginary voices started telling you to
kill yourself) and who wouldn't be? But why Dawn? Why not --
and this is quite possibly the most glaring point in the
show -- Xander?
Don't have much to say, just random ramblings, except...this
episode, my friends, is also why I've watched every first-
run Buffy since "The Pack" without fail. Even through the
bumpy spots -- season 6 springs to mind -- I always had a
justifiable faith in ME and Joss and their ability to hold
onto the greatness.
Oh, and *sob* poor Jonathan! I'm really gonna miss the
short, insane little dude. He was -- and the episode made a
point of emphasizing this -- a nostalgiac link to the way-
back-when.
[> [> Re: Buffy 7.7 Question (spoiler) --
frisby, 09:06:40 11/13/02 Wed
I agree with your judgment of greatness on this show. I too
was rivited to the screen. On the first evil, the line I
keep remembering (from season 3) is something like "I am
that which even the darkness fears" -- and yes, poor
jonathan, a sacrifice I take it, and was that simply the
devil? This is going to be some season, buffy and angel
(assuming they come together some how). And did you notice
how pretty Willow's hair has become? And her power! Not just
in name but in the confidence and insight Allyson projects
for Willow. I am really taken with this show, in my opinion,
the best thing I've ever experienced from tv.
[> First Impressions of 7.7 (tonights ep.& future
speculation) Agree? Disagree? -- shadowkat, 19:26:30
11/12/02 Tue
I swore no knee-jerk posts. But this episode bugged me. And
writing helps. After it was over I flipped off tv and sat
there torn between crying and swearing off watching Buffy
and Angel both. Also was afraid to go online b/c sooo do not
want to see Spike bashing/gloating posts. Then tried a
friend who was NOT home, then flew to the internet to see
any other reactions - not much so far. Guess everyone is on
the west coast?
Okay now that I've calmed down -b/c boy was I
discombobulated after this episode. (I admit, I was way too
invested in a certain character's story, trying hard not to
be but can't help it...please don't hurt me for my
weakness...we all have them. ;-)) I've come up with a few
impressions that I'm really curious to know if anyone else
came up with??
First: Gee how can these writers hurt us? Take some of our
favorite characters and flip them - that's how. And that in
of itself is not only ironic, but incredibly
interesting.
Shame they didn't get Tara - would have been so much more
powerful if it had been Tara in that scene and not
Cassie.
But since we liked and trusted Cassie - it worked just as
well.
So why flip favorite characters?
Why use Cassie, Spike and Joyce to hurt the characters? Why
make us think they are redeeming Spike only to make him do
incredibly horrible things?? What are they saying? What is
the Big Bad up to?
Well in Amends - who did the Big Bad use as it's chief
representative??? Jenny. Sounds like the first evil to
me.
It knows what scares you. It knows what buttons to push.
(Button, button whose got the button?) It knows what lies in
your heart. And it knows how to get you. PArticularly when
it's had six years to watch you, study you and figure you
out.
So...what did we before this epsiode??:
1. we know that every episode is about perceptions. And
looking with your heart. Or getting to the heart of the
matter.
2. we know that every thing is connected.
3.we know that in the end people are who they are.
And finally BBS reminds us an awful lot of the First
EVil
who did what to Angel??? Except that time - Buffy figured
the first evil out before it was too late.
Now, what happens in the episode that is weird or
interesting:
1. Buffy says - "I don't feel connected" right when Dawn
tries to contact her to ask for help.
2. Willow is told by the woman who dies from heart failure
to kill herself, to stop doing magic absolutely, to do the
big disconnect b/c otherwise she'll kill all her
friends.
(Cassie basically tells Willow the opposite of what Giles
advises)
3. The vampire Buffy stakes tells her Spike sired him. He's
connected to Spike and he's the one who gives her her mock
therapy session.
4. Jonathan tells Andrew how he misses his connection to the
high school and all his friends and this is just before
Andrew kills him and his blood flows over the symbol, like a
sacrifice.
5. The area they dig up is the same area where Spike was
staying for we have no idea how long. Spike was found in
this area by Buffy.
6. Spike charms a girl, then instead of going into her
apartment, bites her outside it.
Now What do we know from past episodes?
1. Spike is insane. In Beneath You - Spike states that there
are several people in his head: Me, Him and It - the thing
beneath you. In Lessons - Spike states there's just the
three of us in here. Spike mentions he has a soul.
But he also has a demon. And of course there's it.
2. The Chip. I think it still works. But I have a question
for everyone? What makes us think that "IT" can't use the
chip to do work its will or control it?
Because it's technology? Think about what happened in the
house? It turned on the TV set without power, it worked the
microwave, it worked the tape player and the boom box. If it
can work those objects why not the chip??
Warren knew about the chip and now Warren appears to be part
of it. Why wouldn't it know? Adam knew. It knows everything.
So the mislead? Is that Spike is evil and they need to kill
him. I think that's the mislead. I think IT can control
Spike and the new soul isn't enough to fight it on it's
own.
Particularly if IT is controlling the chip.
My spec? I think the SG may have to find a way of getting
rid of Spike's chip. But for the opposite reason than
before. I think IT is using the chip. Of course whether
Buffy and company figure this out prior to killing Spike is
anyone's guess.
3. What's interesting? Buffy. She has a superiority complex
and an inferiority complex about a superiority complex -
hence the white/black Buffy's. Also she clearly has some
problems with men cheating on women, something all four men
in her life have in common, well five.
Hank - cheated on Joyce apparently, broke up the
marriage.
Angel - cheated on her with Dru, after he turned evil
Riley - cheated on her when he slept with Faith in her
body
Spike - cheated on her after they broke up with Anya
Xander - cheated on Cordy with Willow
Giles - slept with her mother (although not sure this
counts)
She admits she's self-involved, barely remembers the vamp.
The vampire says that makes sense after all she has a lot
going on, being chosen one and all.
It's an odd conversation. In all three conversations - one
thing is clear - the BB knows where it hurts.
Dawn - Buffy won't be on your side in the end, not this
round she'll be against you.
Willow - You will kill all your friends, you should kill
yourself first. Will of the people speaking to dead folks is
the only one who sees through the charade, she realizes its
the big bad. (Maybe this has something to do with spirit?)I
think Will is the BB's biggest threat. Why it wanted her to
kill herself.
Jonathan - wants to reunite with everyone and is afraid no
one cares, so wants to save the day and join the gang, his
deepest dream is to join the SG.
Andrew - wants to be a god with Warren and fears loss of
Warren.
Buffy - fears that another vampire lover has gone bad. That
she has failed in her calling and it's Angelus all over
again. Spike siring people all over town - is a retread of
Angel.
From beneath you it devors. Fear. Uncertainity. Self-
Doubt.
The feeling that you are disconnected and your life is
meaningless and no one cares - these things threaten to
devor us everyday. I know I've gone through periods the last
few weeks in which i've been on the verge of being devored
by my own fears, self-doubts, concerns and weaknesses.
Coming online for a feeling of connectedness, to hold off
the demons.
I think the three women in this episode who are threatened
are in truth - the three most powerful women in the
show.
One is the key.
One is the slayer of fear, of demons, of lies. She brought
Anya into the fold and out of vengeance. She brought Spike
out of the basement.
One is the witch - who holds at her grasp knowledge of
spiritual energy and can see through to the spirit of a
matter.
Each are attacked - mentally and emotionally.
So what the heck are they doing with Spike? First he's good.
Then he's evil. Again - I think we have to remember what
Spike said in Beneath You. What he said in STSP.
What he says in HELP. What he says in Selfless. And finally
what he said in Lessons.
He tells us he's in trouble. He tells us it has a grip on
him and he can't trust what he sees or knows. He tells her
moving in with Xander won't work.
It's not black and white any more. No more than the vamp she
stakes in the graveyard is simply black and white evil.
There's something else going on. I'm not sure what it
is.
But my guess is that it's paralleling what's happening on
Angel this year.
(Oh PS - let's try to not turn this into a huge Spike is
Evil debate, okay??)
[> [> The Chip and the thing beneath -- Dariel,
19:59:23 11/12/02 Tue
I do like the idea that the First Evil is controlling
Spike's chip, and that the only way to free him is to dechip
him! This would be a hard decision for the Scoobies; well,
for Buffy, since none of the rest of them could stop an
unchipped Spike. Even having a discussion about such a thing
could cause more problems amongst the Scoobies, something
they don't need now. I could see Xander all for staking him,
with Willow and Buffy wavering.
Of course, the FE may just be inside Spike's head, with no
connection to the chip. That, I think, would be even worse;
how do you get rid of it's influence then.
As for that bashy "Spike is evil" crowd--don't let them
bother you. They are just as invested in Spike being bad as
you (and I) are in his redemption. Let them have their fun--
it won't last (no, I'm not spoiled, though tempted
now!).
I was kind of hoping that Spike could have a nice, peaceful,
thoughtful little redemption story. Where he thinks about
his past, reconnects to his human self, has fond memories of
his family. And saves the day. Pretty silly, considering
what show we're watching!
[> [> Why did you say that it bugged you, exactly?
What did you hate so much? -- Finn Mac Cool, 20:04:14
11/12/02 Tue
[> [> [> Ahhh, do you really want to know? And
Dariel covers it pretty well. -- shadowkat, 20:36:47
11/12/02 Tue
What bugged me? Nothing worth mentioning. It's not relevant
criticism trust me. It's completely a personal emotional
response that has no critical bearing on the show.
So I deleted it from my post.
I work very very hard not to include rants and personal
views on the characters in posts. Because I think it clouds
the analysis and takes away from more interesting
points.
Suffice it to say? The story I wanted to see told on Spike
and the story ME has chosen to tell aren't the same (Dariel
and I had the same hopes, sigh.) I'm horribly disappointed
right now. And feel betrayed -because i've had my hopes
dashed, dang it!! But I will get over it, already beginning
to. Since deep down inside I realize that they are doing
something far more interesting than I've come up with. And
isn't it better to see a story you haven't already created
in your head and can predict? I would never in my wildest
dreams have predicted what they've chosen to do. Also I
realize (embarrassed as I am to admit it) that I've fallen
into the same trap William the Poet and Rufus warned people
not to fall into - which is ignoring the story that is being
told because you've become enamored with a character or ship
or thread in the story that may or may not be there and as a
result are missing out on something really amazing and if
you will only be a little patient, you might actually get a
better story than the one you thought you wanted. After all
the one I came up with was a little predictable and boring.
This one is well, a rollercoaster ride. So which do I
prefer? The nice little ferris wheel or the rollercoaster?
Need you ask? If I wanted a ferris wheel or something
predictable I could watch Gilmore Girls or 8 rules or any
number of shows opposite this one. I'm a masochist - I want
roller-coasters, I want something I can't predict or figure
out quickly. I want complex characters and stories. And I
want to be on the edge of my couch with my heart in my
mouth.
Of course if they kill off Spike or Wesely? Or Fred or
Willow? All bets are off.
[> [> [> [> Re: Ahhh, do you really want to
know? And Dariel covers it pretty well. -- vh,
17:09:49 11/14/02 Thu
That's interesting. I'd think what Dariel described was a
little too tame (JMHO). I loved the episode! Plus, the
thought that Spike is being driven to bite -- and sire --
these people while still quite possibly feeling the full
impact of the chip's pain is a mind-blowing thought.
[> [> Re: First Impressions of 7.7 (tonights
ep.& future speculation) Agree? Disagree? --
ponygirl, 20:04:38 11/12/02 Tue
Call me crazy but I was actually happy to see how Spike was
being used in this episode. We've had almost every episode
this season be about false perceptions, culminating with
this eps. demonstration that the big bad can take on any
form it wants, including possibly maybe angelic visions of
Joyce, that it can see into the minds of others playing
Andrew and Willow. And we see Spike, apparently coherent and
charming and dressed in denim. Most interesting of all we
never hear him speak, the most verbal of all the characters
on BtVS, whose snarky insights are usually his greatest
power, and they've taken away his voice. He's being
controlled all right. I'm sure it's going to get worse for
Spike before it gets better but I think by revealing his so-
called evil turn so early we're being set up for another
reversal. (Of course if it turns out he was faking with the
chip reactions in earlier episodes I think you owe me some
cyber-kittens).
Interesting that you mention flipping in your post,
shadowkat. William the Poet's latest post (which are the
only spoilers I'm reading! 'cause he doesn't count, right?)
mentions the game of Othello as a possible ponderable after
all that earlier stuff about the game of Go. Othello, which
I have only murky memories of, involves capturing opponent's
pieces and flipping them from black to white, or vice
versa.
[> [> [> vague possible spoilery board game
reference above (how's that for a vague disclaimer?) --
ponygirl, 20:12:38 11/12/02 Tue
[> [> [> [> "A vague disclaimer is nobody's
friend." -- Sophist, 09:48:46 11/13/02 Wed
Sorry, couldn't resist.
[> [> [> About games and spike...(spoilery on
episode and games) -- shadowkat, 20:55:28 11/12/02
Tue
You're absolutely right. After thinking about it a while I
agree with your post.
He is so silent. The most talkative of characters has
stopped talking. He barely speaks, just gestures. I think he
is being controlled. And in both Beneath You and Lessons we
see him trying to fight the control - he presses his hands
to his head in Beneath You and screams for it to stop,
"begging now". So I'm thinking whatever is controlling him
is causing him pain.
I read WTP's post and fell right into the trap he warned me
not to fall into. I admit it. Don't hurt me guys. We all
have our weaknesses - now everyone has seen mine. (hiding
face in object embarrassment.)
Now onto Go/Othello
Othello is wacky chinese checkers. Instead of removing
pieces from the board - you flip them turning them into your
territory, making them yours. White becomes black and Black
becomes White. The person with the most colored pieces wins.
The game is about territories and surrounding your enemy.
Thanks for mentioning it because now the GO reference makes
sense.
GO is similar in concept.
It's not unlike chess - but with a major league
difference.
Instead of killing of the opponents pawns and knights and
warriors, you flip them to your side. They become your
knights and pawns and warriors. Their power becomes
yours.
So here's the thing: In Season 4 - Adam wanted to take
pieces of the soliders and demons and make them his.
Reconstruct them. In Season 1 - the Master wanted to take
Buffy's power and make it his. He even tries to make her his
in Nightmares. Part of his power base. In Season 3 - The
Mayor makes Faith his and wants to devor the student body.
In Season 2 - Angelus wanted to make Buffy his, realized he
couldn't so decided to open hell.
Now we come to this season. The Big Bad talking to Willow
says she doesn't care about the mortal coil, cares about
power. Tells Spike in Lessons - a soul is slippery than a
greased wheel, you're not your own man, you're mine.
It wants it's players. When Anyanka gives up vengeance -
D'Hoffryn sends someone after her. And was a little upset
Willow hadn't turned. The war right now? Is over territory
methinks - and like Othellow and Go - the territory isn't
land or mileage - it's pawns, players. It's going after the
outskirts at the moment - Spike (an easy target - he's
already connected to thing beneath because he's a demon, the
fact he now has a soul - makes him an even better target b/c
before Buffy would've just staked him...), Andrew and
jonathan - last years little bads, Anya who it lost - Anya
flipped to Buffy's side.
Yep - we're watching ME play Othello with their
characters.
And it's just going to get worse.
[> [> [> [> Re: About games and
spike...(spoilery on episode and games and future spec)
-- alcibiades, 22:19:51 11/12/02 Tue
Just thinking outloud about the possibilites for Spike just
now. With the Othello reference, making black white and
white black, and the Greek tragedy and the hubris
references.
Morphy is one.
Here is another thought of the moment.
In BY, we learned that Spike had dreams of Buffy's ending
which made him weep buckets of salt.
What if Spike realizes he is fated to stop Buffy in some way
this year -- causing or helping to cause her ending.
He is now been taken out of the basement -- for good or ill,
and tonight we learned that it is for ill, because
Jonathan's blood sacrifice could only occur after Buffy
helped Spike out of the basement for what she thought was
Spike's own good. Actually it turned out to be the opposite.
Spike knew his place and what his duty was.
But, with Spike out of the basement -- his self appointed
role as guardian is over -- and he may know on some level --
through prophetic dreams -- that once he is out, the evil
will begin.
And once the evil begins, he may also know by prophetic
dreams that he will help cause Buffy's ending.
That may be a good and worthy thing at the end because if
Buffy defeats this shape shifting evil and either gets
infected by it as she wins, or her superiority complex gets
out of control, Buffy may need to be stopped.
But all Spike knows is that he will be responsible for
hurting her or causing her ending -- maybe not what all that
implies. Or he might know what that implies but, like Buffy
who refused to sacrifice Dawn even if it meant it was the
end of the world, he may feel he'd rather the end of the
world came than help sacrifice Buffy.
In this case, biting people may be his way of inviting that
confrontation with Buffy -- that he hopes results in his
death.
It is the polar opposite of the Willow scenario.
Willow is told to suicide because it will get her out of the
way of the Big Bad. And she won't be able to help Buffy. She
refuses and figures out the plot.
Spike may want to invite a kind of suicide by Buffy's hand
as a way to help Buffy after his own fashion.
After all, Buffy's decision to sacrifice the world rather
than Dawn was more or less considered the gold standard by
everyone who knew Buffy from season 5 on. She sacrificed
herself rather than let the person she loved most die.
And here is a situation in which Buffy's words to Dawn last
week may be shown to be wrong from another perspective --
that no object of love is worth suicide.
[> [> [> [> [> Hmmm... Forget that
brilliant theory (snort) -- alcibiades, 05:23:04
11/13/02 Wed
I finished rewatching the episode, and although emotionally
it might fit Spike at the beginning of the episode --it
doesn't at all fit him at the end -- when he is walking home
with the girl and then vampirizing her.
Very interesting point though that he turns down the sex and
only vampirizes her once she turns back down the steps to
him.
So there is some component of it being come on related or
sex related in that episode.
[> [> [> [> Greased WEASEL! Not wheel! *G*
(nt) -- FriarTed,
02:46:34 11/13/02 Wed
[> [> [> [> Re: About games and
spike...(spoilery on episode and games) -- ponygirl,
06:56:16 11/13/02 Wed
Thanks for a much better explanation of Othello than I could
remember. Interesting in games like Othello we become aware
how easily it is to go from one side to the other. Black,
white all it takes is a change in perspective.
But s'kat, there's no shame in getting emotionally invested
in the characters, that's why we're here isn't it? And I've
had more than a couple (dozen) moments where I've wanted to
throw something at the screen because of how certain
characters were acting or being treated. Him infuriated me
the first time I watched it, the second time, I loved it. I
think I posted right after Helpless aired, asking for some
help in liking it, and I got some answers that made me ok
with the episode. I was really pleased with CWDP from the
get-go because it finally gave me something I'd been lacking
for most of this season, a connection with Buffy. She's got
a problem, ME knows she has a problem, and now Buffy might
even be aware she has a problem. It's just so hard to try
and trust the story sometimes, but I'm working on it.
[> [> [> [> [> trusting the story, helps
when you look back over it ;-) -- shadowkat, 09:22:22
11/13/02 Wed
Thanks, made me feel a little better. And yeah me too.
Working on trusting the story. I rewatched all the episodes
this year, well all except Help and Selfless which are still
in cjl's custody. And came up with a new perspective.
In each episode, one or more of the characters emphasize
some version of the following lines:
Beneath You: "I wanted to Fit. To be a part..." (clearly fit
= connected, right?) "Why can't he just leave me alone?"
"I'm worried about being accepted again."
"Deep down inside me." -"From Beneath You it Devors".
"Now we're all connected - three of us going to the
school..."
"I used to be connected, friends, bridesmaids, who shooting
match" - "now I have no one".
STSP: "Your alone. all alone. You're friends have left you
here all alone. Abandoned you." Visual disconnect - can't
see Willow, Willow can't see them. "I picked up my heart,
thought it would fit, wall up all the bad stuff, but now I'm
worse off than before."
Selfless: "I don't want you to be alone." "Maybe I should be
alone." "I can't trust what I see."
Help: "Die alone." "We connected. We became friends."
HIM: "We connected." "I'm alone."
Lessons: It's all connected, good and the bad. You are
alone. You're not alone. I want to be Willow - you are, in
the end we all are who we are no matter how much we appear
to have changed. It's about power. Control.
Conversations: also has lines relating to alone, connected.
With the ever present cell phone and electricity which are
metaphors.
Oh power and control are also either mentioned or visually
or metaphorically referred to in every episode. Maybe i'll
write a lengthy post someday pointing out how.
On top of that we have Spike saying things throughout
the episodes. From deep down, deep inside me. To screaming
in pain when he's not hitting anyone. I even heard a buzz
when he grabs his head and shies away from Buff and Xander
in sTSP saying he should hide his face. And when the pain
fires? His personality appears to change a bit.
He also talks as if IT is coming from inside him. And some
of his words echo Cassie's in Conversations.
But the big thing that's staying with me? Is the idea of
power and control. Who has the control. In Lessons - Giles
emphasizes to Willow the need to control her power - and she
echoes this concern in STSP, Selfless, Him, and
Conversations.
So I ask you? Who has the power in the gang and who is
connected to what?
Willow's power is connected to darkness and light.
Anya's power was connected to darkness - she cut it off when
she chose to stop being a vengeance demon, but it has worked
it's will on her for centuries.
Spike - he's a vampire and is stated over and over again,
vampires are connected to the evil that will devour you. The
vampire is the evil's minion - it's infected virus
engineered to devor humans and create more of it's kind.
"I'm connected to the evil that will devour..." Holden
Webster states. And who sired Holden? Spike.
Yet herein lies the irony. Holden helps Buffy work out some
personal issues here and warns her about Spike. Wondering if
the evil Holden is connected to wanted that??
Spike is split in two. He got a soul to be his own man, yet
he appears to still be evil's minion, the big evil is still
controlling him. I'm beginning to wonder if there may have
been an attachment that came with the soul? A
hitchhiker?
That only operates at certain times and spike knows zip
about it?? At any rate, Spike is not in control of his
power.
Which brings me back to HIM. Why did the women lose control
of their powers? Buffy lost control - and went to demolish
the principal and half the school - if Spike hadn't stopped
her in time?? Willow tried to change a man into a girl.
Anya robbed stores. Dawn attempted suicide. None were in
control.
In STSP - Anya and Willow discuss the fear of the dark power
taking control of them. It's why Anya no longer enjoys
vengeance. It's why Willow wished she could get rid of the
dark power.
It makes sense that Spike would lose control over the demon
and the "it" that occupy him. Sort of a double whammy.
Guess we'll have to wait and see the next two episodes to
find out for sure. But Buffy's face at the end of last
night's episode was evidence to me that the girl has
feelings for Spike and her worst nightmare was just
uttered.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: trusting the
story, helps when you look back over it ;-) --
alcibiades, 10:03:36 11/13/02 Wed
Yet herein lies the irony. Holden helps Buffy work out
some personal issues here and warns her about Spike.
Wondering if the evil Holden is connected to wanted that??
OTOH, the evil Holden is connected to just learned all of
Buffy's weaknesses. Especially the inferiority/superiority
complex, and I bet he is going to exploit that knowledge.
Not to mention the lack of connectedness. The fear of
abandonment, the fear of being cheated on, etc.
Besides, Buffy acknowledged some, but not all of her
problems -- that is a big step, but that doesn't mean she
worked them out -- just that she is aware of them and maybe
has some more insight about them. Intellectual/emotional
knowledge though of the root causes of some of her attitudes
is not the same as changing her behavior.
I also think the BBE wanted her to be aware of Spike --
because if she stakes Spike, he won't be there to help her.
And if she only doesn't trust him, he still won't be able to
help her.
It's the same thing as targeting Willow to get rid of the
aid she can give to Buffy.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Making connections
(spoilers 7.7) -- ponygirl, 11:55:17 11/13/02 Wed
I found Willow's line, "I am the power" very telling,
paralleling Buffy's superiority complex. Evil Cassie points
out that the power is larger than Willow, and I have to
agree with the Evil. The same goes for Buffy. They've both
recognized the power within them, but I don't think they
really grasp what the source of their power is. Willow at
least says she knows it's all connected, but I don't think
she truly believes it, and Buffy isn't feeling connected to
anything right now, including her own feelings. My latest
Big Vague Theory is that eventually Buffy's going to have to
learn that while it is all about power, the power is
connected to everything, good and evil, the world above and
the world below, humans and demons, slayers and vampires.
Like I said, vague.
"Guess we'll have to wait and see the next two episodes to
find out for sure. But Buffy's face at the end of last
night's episode was evidence to me that the girl has
feelings for Spike and her worst nightmare was just
uttered."
Ooh yes, Buffy's rant about killing Angel in Selfless wasn't
just so Xander's secret could finally come out. The girl has
Issues. How can she connect with anyone when deep down she
has to face the possibility that she might one day be called
upon to kill them? Be it friend, family or lover, that
thought is always got to be holding Buffy back. She killed
herself rather than be faced with that situation with Dawn.
And now she's about to she's about to go through that again.
I'm looking forward to all that angsty goodness!
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Humans and
vamps (spoilers 7.7 and future spec) -- shadowkat,
13:16:38 11/13/02 Wed
Something just occurred to me. Remember all our debates
about human evil vs. demon evil? And what happened in
Selfless?
Xander says that when Willow went all evil they didn't kill
her and Buffy says Willow's human, so she's different. Buffy
only has to worry about demons. Humans she can't kill.
Now in last night's episode two people commit murder. One
Spike. One Andrew. Both may be under the influence of big
bad. One is a vampire with a soul and a chip and maybe a
third party. So has a demon connecting him to evil. A soul
connecting him to what he chooses. The other is human and
going along with big bad.
How should Buffy treat these two? Should Andrew be treated
better than Spike? The same? Less well?
What about vengeance demons? Anya arguably has killed quite
a few people. We only know about the frat boys. Does she get
a higher standard?
I think Buffy is about to be faced with this question again
and the answer may not be as easy as it was in Becoming
where the world was at stake and her only choice was to
close Acathla's mouth. What do you do when the world isn't
at stake? When a human has committed as many horrible acts
as a vampire? Or when your vampire lover is doing it?
Possibly under the influence of the first evil? Something
tells me that what happened in Selfless is going to come up
again, soon.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re:
Humans and vamps (spoilers 7.7 and future spec) --
Haecceity, 10:30:11 11/14/02 Thu
Love this line:
"What do you do when the world isn't at stake?"
What do you do when it's not the external world, but the
internal, personal world you're sacrificing everything to
protect?
In so many traditions regarding (the equivalency of)
individuation, the "ego" must die so the "Self" can be
reborn.
Is this the battle Buffy is facing? To finally lay her old
hang-ups to rest, to become a new Slayer, just in time to
save the world from the projections of everyone's battles to
deny/empower their shadow selves?
---Haecceity
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Making
connections (spoilers 7.7) -- imp, 16:29:39 11/13/02
Wed
WARNING: This post contains specific spoilers about ep 7.7!
Also, some may find this to be a long post.
Hi! Briefly delurking. Don't know why except this post,
particularly the paragraph below from Ponygirl, compelled me
to respond. What follows is entirely my opinion--except
where I fumblingly attempt to paraphrase others, or to
cite/paraphrase dialogue. Try not to be too distracted by
any typos. I do not "read" BtVS well from the standpoints of
technical matters, metaphysics, symbolism, or metaphor.
Please also do not misinterpret this post as a rant, a
ramble, or a bash--this is NOT my intent.
***Ooh yes, Buffy's rant about killing Angel in Selfless
wasn't just so Xander's secret could finally come out. The
girl has Issues. How can she connect with anyone when deep
down she has to face the possibility that she might one day
be called upon to kill them? Be it friend, family or lover,
that thought is always got to be holding Buffy back. She
killed herself rather than be faced with that situation with
Dawn. And now she's about to she's about to go through that
again. I'm looking forward to all that angsty
goodness!***
So am I! I have been lurking on this board for many months
now. I have also been watching BtVS for its entire run--
although I was not deeply engaged/involved with it until the
last half of S2. Personally, I get more from the entire
narrative rather than focusing on a particular relationship,
arc, or character.
However, I do admit to having pet likes and faves. The
character I most identify with is Buffy; not the Slayer but
the person (the good/bad/ugly--metaphorical warts and all).
Over the years of getting to know this character I have
often been irritated and angry with her. I have also felt
for her. I do not identify with her because of any parallels
with my actual ife and experiences. I do identify with her
because of how she has been/is being shown to me--one lone
viewer.
Ponygirl's paragraph above cuts to the heart of it for me
(pardon the phrase). There are many aspects of my life that
could be better but I do not have to make life-and-death
decisions daily. Honestly, I do not know that I could do any
better if I were constantly being given crappy choices and
had to make excruciatingly painful decisions.
This is why, even when I find it hard to like/sympathize
with Buffy, I cut her some slack. I choose to do this
because she is, generally, too hard on herself. From behind
the Fourth Wall, I as a viewer am privy to seeing and
hearing things that she and the other characters sometimes
do not get to see or hear. Thus, I try not to get on her
case too much (this goes for other characters as well). This
is not to say that I am never displeased or disappointed or
shocked by them.
It's funny... when Buffy mentions how alone she is as the
Slayer, I think back to something S1 Cordelia said in 'Out
of Sight, Out of Mind' about her choosing to be alone in a
crowd (I think that was the gist of what she said). Buffy
may have family, friends, lovers, mentors but she is still
alone--in my opinion. Really, to me, the only character who
can truly identify with Buffy is another Slayer (i.e.,
Faith). They walk in two worlds but feel as if they do not
belong in either one.
Spike said it best: "Death is your art. You make it with
your hands everyday" ('Fool For Love'). I, for one, think
Buffy believes there is no way for her friends and family to
understand what being a Slayer means to her. I believe she
would be hard-pressed to articulate it because she is unsure
of the meaning herself. Is she just a killer after all?
Apparently, the First Slayer thinks so and says as much to
Buffy in 'Restless'. She says Buffy is supposed to be alone,
to have no friends. All buffy is supposed to have is the
kill. So this is what Buffy was Called for, huh? To have a
short, violent life filled with heartache, longing, regret,
pain, and death. To have to constantly face the prospect of
one day having to kill those she knows or are close to her.
I know, I know. There is much more to her than that. Her
intestinal fortitude, strength of character, and will to win
still amaze me. But I wonder how often Buffy can "love,
give, and forgive". How often can she "risk the pain"?
Pivot: My take on having the epsidoe title, date, and time
appear at the beginning was that ME was telling me, as a
viewer, to take note of this ep. It caps offs the first
third of the season and, in my opinion, will "power" the
remaining two-thirds. Oh, requiem in pacis, Jonathan.
To close, I have enjoyed the ride--this magical mystery tour
that is BtVS--thus far. I personally will set aside my needs
for instant gratification in terms of character development,
relationships, plot arcs, etc. while they take me on the
scenic route. If this is the last year for BtVS, then I wish
to savor every moment of it (also really enjoying AtS as
well).
To parrot the Rock (of WWE/WWF wresting fame; no stone
throwing please): JUST BRING IT!
Phew! Enough for now. Back to lurking.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Welcome
to the land of non-lurking! Great post!! -- ponygirl,
16:54:41 11/13/02 Wed
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> This Is
What I Get For Not Proofing My Post... -- imp,
17:31:57 11/13/02 Wed
I had trouble getting it approved the first time. I forgot
to retype something else about CWDP...
I check out other posting boards from time to time. Today, I
read a few posts where the writer/viewer felt that Buffy's
superiority/inferiority complex was obvious. Since I have
already said I do not "read" BtVS well, this complex of hers
was not obvious to me. I will admit that I genuinely thought
Buffy had feelings of inferiority early in her "career" as a
Slayer. After continued "success" she probably did start to
have feelings of superiority as well.
However, to have both going on at the same time makes for a
much more complex and interesting personal dynamic, in my
opinion. There is a thread at the top of the board now
discussing how, in real life, some highly successful people
feel unworthy or underserving of what they have
gained/accomplished. I believe this is a real phenomenon. I
vaguely remember watching something about this topic several
years ago (Oprah? Donahue?).
It is deeply ironic to me what this says about Buffy--given
what she is so good at. She should "feel good" about still
being alive, about winning those one-to-one, do-or-die
situations. She should "feel good" about being one of the
longest-lived Slayers. But, look at what she sometimes must
do to remain successful. Look at who she has to hurt, or may
come to hurt. No wonder she has an inferiority complex to
boot!
I believe this self-view informed her during her
"relationship" with Spike. And now, now that she "feels" for
Spike, she may have to end his existence? Could this be a
reason why she did not want to "connect" with him on
interpersonal levels other than sex? How much did it cost
her personally to confront Anya in 'Selfless'? How much more
costly will it be for her to one day believe she must
confront Spike--given all they have been through?
Well, I thought I would only post once. But then again, my
chosen posting name does imply mischievousness.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
very good post -- Rahael, 17:47:18 11/13/02
Wed
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
Excellent points. Welcome. -- Sophist, 20:30:18
11/13/02 Wed
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re:
This Is What I Get For Not Proofing My Post... --
frisby, 06:30:46 11/14/02 Thu
Nice post. I too often dwell on the dynamics between Buffy
Summers, the mortal young woman, and The Slayer, the one
chosen to fulfill her sacred duty of protecting humanity.
Part of her wants to deny the other part and return to
"normalcy" while the other part wants to let go of her
original nature to embrace her "true nature (5.1)" -- and
the middle ground is where she finds her soul. But how long
can she straddle both worlds? Should she not accept her
destiny and throw her all against the forces of darkness? Is
that not the greater good? Or should she continue to hope
against all hope for a return to a simple human life
including love and marriage and children perhaps? "Buffy" in
my eyes actually represents "humanity" itself today. What is
"our" natural history and does it conflict with "our"
destiny? The "earth" is the real question: do we own it? do
we belong to it? Who speaks for earth?
Thanks for delurking and joining the fight!
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
Re: This Is What I Get For Not Proofing My Post... --
imp, 15:22:52 11/14/02 Thu
I've posted again in a thread above since my first
experience yesterday went well. What you say here is
something I've thought about off-and-on over the run of the
series. Please forgive me if this reply turns into a
ramble.
I personally believe that, deep down, Buffy has accepted her
calling. However, any (perceived/implied) "whining" on her
part has been replaced by a more grim outlook. She is the
(active) Slayer--but with family, friends, lovers(?). She
also seems to me to be someone who goes for the hard
choice.
What did she say to Giles late S5? Something about slaying
making her hard on the inside? That in order to do what she
does, she has to stop loving, has to stop being
compassionate and forgiving? I wonder if she thinks that
integrating all aspects of her being would make her hard on
the inside. Particularly since she thinks she will continue
to be a Slayer until she dies--again.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
[> Re: This Is What I Get For Not Proofing My
Post... -- frisby, 11:10:48 11/15/02 Fri
Hi imp. Yes, she feared she could not love and had to become
hard to be strong and would thus lose her humanity> Much
earlier, talking first to Kendra and then Willow she reveals
that her "fire" involved both romance/love and also
emotions/passion, and that her "fire" was to key to her
victories, and also what she lived for. But after her
resurrection she seemed to have lost her "fire" and wants it
back, and her thing with Spike is/was part of that attempt,
and without it (season 6 and 7 so far) she comes across as
being harder and colder and more inhumane each episode (with
some exceptions, such as the tear that Spike on the cross
provoked). As you say, she needs integration of all of her
aspects (old-fashioned integrity we might think of it as) --
some form of earth air and water -- to create the living
fire against which no spirit can stand. Or so I think of it,
after reading your reply (not a ramble). Those writers (Joss
and Co) seem to really know something about the old
disciplines touching on the mystical, the magical, the
mysterious, and the mythical. For example, the alchemy of
fire and spirit.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
Excellent post. Welcome. -- Sophist, 08:49:16
11/14/02 Thu
[> [> [> [> Not really -- Etrangere,
09:37:42 11/13/02 Wed
Not that i'm a specialist, my dad never managed to convert
me to his favorite game that is Go, but in Go it is indeed
the territory, as in the field, the cases where there is no
other pieces, that matters. Yes you can capture the other
player's pieces by circling them but that doesn't make a lot
of points, it's hardly the focus of the game which is all
about... the way the pieces influences the board.
Anyway, great post shadowkat. I'm myself so realing over
Jonnathan's death I've barely register the Spike's debacle.
We hardly can have conclusions yet about that, anyway, this
episode plays so much with perceptions. I'm anxiously
waiting for the next episodes.
[> [> [> Othello ties in with "Angel" as well?
(vague Angel spoilers) -- Scroll, 14:03:03 11/15/02
Fri
In the archives, there are a few posts talking about Gunn as
Othello, Wesley as Iago/Cassio, and how the two have
switched roles with Wes the streetfighter and Gunn the "in"
guy with the fancy detective agency. So role-reversal and
flipping sides seems to be something pervading both
shows.
[> [> Re: First Impressions of 7.7 (tonights
ep.& future speculation) Agree? Disagree? --
Malandanza, 20:35:15 11/12/02 Tue
Also was afraid to go online b/c sooo do not want to see
Spike bashing/gloating posts...
"So what the heck are they doing with Spike? First he's
good. Then he's evil. Again - I think we have to remember
what Spike said in Beneath You. What he said in STSP. What
he says in HELP. What he says in Selfless. And finally what
he said in Lessons. He tells us he's in trouble. He tells us
it has a grip on him and he can't trust what he sees or
knows. He tells her moving in with Xander won't
work."
I don't think anyone's going to be rushing to blame Spike
for something that's not his fault -- I think it's pretty
clear he is being controlled. Last season, Spike did a great
deal of evil of his own free will for his own selfish
purposes, injuring the very person he claimed to love --
this season he has no free will. It would be like blaming
Katrina for coming on to Warren when she was under the slave
spell. So saying Spike is to blame for Spike's actions last
season makes sense -- saying it this season does not.
I don't think ME was telling us Spike was good or evil --
they were telling us that he is weak. Like Andrew. Is anyone
surprised that Andrew fell under the thrall of the First (or
whatever it is)? Andrew had difficulty distinguishing
between reality and fantasy on a good day. William was
Andrew back when he was alive and, as Spike, has spent the
last century pretending to be something he's not. More
fantasy/reality issues (especially underlined last season
with his refusal to accept Buffy's pronouncements). Now even
more conflicted than ever before, he shrinks away and the
First takes over. The most you could blame him for is not
fighting harder (and we've seen no evidence that he did not
put up a struggle). We don't know how long he was in the
basement before Buffy dragged him out, but several episodes
passed from the time of his discovery to the time of his
removal. Plenty of time for some evil influence -- hey, if
the First had had a couple of weeks with Willow instead of
an hour, there's no telling what Willow would have done.
That the chip could be defeated was pointed out by Dru the
last time she came to Sunnydale. She told Spike that
electricity lies and he could fight it. We've seen Spike
rise above the pain of his own volition and attack in spite
of it -- imagine that the First is controlling him, so is
less concerned about the physical pain being inflicted on
Spike's body and the First doesn't need a degree in
electrical engineering -- it can simply ignore the chip.
[> [> [> Re: First Impressions of 7.7 (tonights
ep.& future speculation) Agree? Disagree? -- Rose,
20:54:40 11/12/02 Tue
i belive the first has been working on Spike since he got
his soul.
I'm also begining to belive that demon in africa is the
first's bridge partner and they both cheat.
can you think of a better time to sneek somthing passt
Spike's defences.
it woul;d have to be in a form where physical violence
couldn't help or he could have beaten it.
also Spikes not the only one that needs to answer for last
seasons actions.
Buffy may have very good reasons for her actions that
doesn't excuse them
it actually excuses them less than saying spike did not
realise that this time no actually ment it . he stopped as
soon as he realised he'd crossed the line Buffy didn't
Willow finally clued in after she almost ended the world as
she herself said greif normaly doesn't cause that.
warren never even felt remorse foor his crimes.
Spike did not have a soul, he is a century rusty and out of
date with human rules and no one gave him an inch or even a
rule book. at least he was trying he still screwed up
though.
[> [> Re: First Impressions of 7.7 (tonights
ep.& future speculation) Agree? Disagree? -- frisby,
08:59:15 11/13/02 Wed
Thanks shadowkat. The episode is bothering me too and it
helps not only to write about it but also to read what
others say, and you've said a lot that keeps my concerns yet
open. The development of this show simply amazes me. I'm
taking a course on the history of television next semester
and I plan to write on buffy. The insights shared at this
website are invaluable. Very good points!
[> [> Re: First Impressions of 7.7 (tonights
ep.& future speculation) Agree? Disagree? -- Sarand,
10:48:15 11/13/02 Wed
As usual, Shadowkat, you say things that I was thinking
during the episode. Agree on all points about deciding to
stop watching Buffy and being extremely frustrated by the
Spike storyline. I've been doing that every week starting
with STSP, except for "Selfless". I keep coming back though.
I haven't decided to stop watching Angel, however, because I
have been loving most of the episodes, particularly the
last, but that's probably a whole other essay.
In addition to having the same problems about the Spike
storyline, though, I've had the additional frustration of
not liking the Willow storyline, either, and feeling that
the show and the audience was far too ready to cut her a
break which I just couldn't see and simply can't do. Last
night's episode took a giant step for me with regard to
Willow. IMO, Willow came across in previous episodes as not
really expressing remorse for her actions so much as regret
for the things she lost or thought she lost as a result of
her actions - her old life, the love of her friends. And
then, of course, she seemed to get everything back. Back
into the fold with the Scoobies, back to school where
everybody is so nice and welcoming. To me, her expressions
weren't true remorse and her easy return seemed undeserved.
(Please don't bash me for hating Willow. It's just my
opinion or POV that I know few share but bashing won't help
me.) But last night's episode made me feel more sympathetic
toward her, that she was expressing less selfish feelings of
remorse. I can't quote exactly because I have a terrible
memory for the lines but it was mostly the tenor of the
exchange in addition to the words. And, of course, her
statement that others who are grieving don't do what she did
echos my feelings on the subject. So, all in all, a better
episode for me than many of the previous ones.
Of course, I can't end without going back to Spike. I saw on
another board speculation that the chip didn't work because
the girl was not human. Don't know if anybody said that here
because I've had trouble reading a lot of the posts today.
I'm sort of leaning away from that, just because it would be
way too simple and easy for ME. I think they have more bad
things in store for Spike - not that Buffy is going to stake
him but that he will be ostracized again from the gang. And
besides, ME lives to torture me (yes, it's all about me!)
;)
[> [> Re: First Impressions of 7.7 (tonights
ep.& future speculation) Agree? Disagree? -- leslie,
15:57:38 11/13/02 Wed
"Okay now that I've calmed down -b/c boy was I
discombobulated after this episode. (I admit, I was way too
invested in a certain character's story, trying hard not to
be but can't help it...please don't hurt me for my
weakness...we all have them. ;-))"
Yes, we do like to think that we can be oh so terribly
objective and then... I am embarrassed to confess that I was
more upset at seeing Spike apparently walking in deep
spiritual communion with a woman who picked him up in a bar
than I was when he bit her. It was like, "oh, vampire--we
can deal with that, old news, old issues--BUT HE'S
FORGETTING ALL ABOUT BUFFY?????!!!!" Jeeze.
[> [> Re: Selfdoubt -- Silky, 07:52:06
11/14/02 Thu
>>From beneath you it devors. Fear. Uncertainity. Self-
Doubt. The feeling that you are disconnected and your life
is meaningless and no one cares - these things threaten to
devor us everyday. I know I've gone through periods the last
few weeks in which i've been on the verge of being devored
by my own fears, self-doubts, concerns and weaknesses.
Coming online for a feeling of connectedness, to hold off
the demons.
I agree and was thinking the same thing while watching the
episode. Self doubt devours...
And S'kat - when I saw what they seem to be doing to Spike I
was screaming noooooooooooooooooo! I'm upset and confused -
but hopefully not dissappointed in the end.
[> Re: Buffy 7.7 Question (spoiler) -- celticross,
19:35:27 11/12/02 Tue
Dawn....EEK!
Willow...Awwwwwwwwwwwww and Woo-hoo for Will.
Buffy....looks like ME's been listening to the fans who said
she needs therapy.
Jonathan....NO!!!!
And Spike? WHA????
Oh man...can't process...must view again...
[> Re: Buffy 7.7 Question (spoiler) -- deeva,
21:47:04 11/12/02 Tue
IMO what happened in this episode was that the characters
who could be influenced were and the seeds of doubt have
been planted. I'm not sure if this Big Bad is the First Evil
but for lack of other evidence I'll just call it the First
Evil which will now be reffered to as FE.
The FE was everywhere. I guess you can be when you're all
"connected". I think that it got hold of Spike somehow (We
might see how in the next ep. And hey, while we're on the
topic, Spike dialogue that we can actually hear! Woo &
Hoo!). I most certainly think that it was manipulating Vamp
Jeff(?). And we all could see in the end that FE took the
form of Cassie and of Joyce. FE was tormenting, taunting and
possibly even testing Buffy, Dawn, Willow and maybe even
Spike.
[> [> Re: Buffy 7.7 Question (spoiler) --
frisby, 09:15:12 11/13/02 Wed
Yes, the first evil was everywhere in the episode, but whose
picture was on that seal that Jonthan was sacrificed to? Was
that the demon he referred to (I forget the name, begins
with "D")? And did the first evil "really" bring Angel back
(to kill Buffy) or did it just say that? And if not, how
"did" Angel return after centuries in hell? And if even the
darkness fears the first evil, then will we need an uber-
uber-buffy this time (buffy, giles, xander, willow willow
willow, and dawn the key and maybe more, including even
darkness also, or spike) to defeat it? Willow says it's all
connnected but Buffy does not feel connected. Just thinking
out loud after reading your very interesting post. God I
love this show! (including those we see and the many behind
the scenes too, of course)
[> [> [> Re: Buffy 7.7 Question (spoiler) --
Deeva, 15:52:07 11/13/02 Wed
Yes, the first evil was everywhere in the episode, but
whose picture was on that seal that Jonthan was sacrificed
to? Was that the demon he referred to (I forget the name,
begins with "D")?
The picture on the pentacle looked like a really grumpy goat
to me and I'm not sure if it was meant to look like the
demon that Jonathan mentioned. No demonologist am I.
And did the first evil "really" bring Angel back (to kill
Buffy) or did it just say that? And if not, how "did" Angel
return after centuries in hell?
The issue of Angel being brought back , now there's
something that hasn't been answered completely or at all, to
my knowledge.
And if even the darkness fears the first evil, then will
we need an uber-uber-buffy this time (buffy, giles, xander,
willow willow willow, and dawn the key and maybe more,
including even darkness also, or spike) to defeat
it?
Sometimes in the face of something so huge and greatly evil
the simplest solution is the answer. I don't believe that it
will take a mystical combination of the gang, with Spike,
Dawn and Anya included, to overcome this threat. It might
just be something far more simpler and sadder. *sigh*
Willow says it's all connnected but Buffy does not feel
connected.
I think that that statement is very telling of where we are
headed and what may happen. Willow is taught by Giles that
it is all connected. Holden says that he feels strongly
connected now that he has been turned. It is apparent that
in Spike's insanity, he is connected to something, maybe
it's the FE or maybe it's that something else that Willow is
talking about. Anya, when she was a demon, could "hear" the
call of another's pain. It's strange to me that Buffy would
say that she feels unconnected when she has at least 2
connections. Her connection to Dawn and to her Slayerness
(which she once wanted to explore but it seems to have
fallen to the wayside)
Just thinking out loud after reading your very
interesting post. God I love this show! (including those we
see and the many behind the scenes too, of course)
I'm glad that you think it's interesting because most of the
time I think I just seem to post a word salad of sorts.
Big Bad? (Spoilers?) -- Lucifer_Sponge, 18:11:36
11/12/02 Tue
Willow: From beneath you, it devours.
Cassie: Not "it." ME.
Is the main villian this year the First Evil as most people
have speculated... or the Hellmouth itself?
~Sponge
[> Re: Big Bad? (Spoilers?) (answer: it involves
both) -- frisby, 18:42:04 11/12/02 Tue
both the first evil and the hellmouth are involved
intimately with this season's big bad
When a body meet a body (spoilers for 7.7, you know the
one that just aired) -- ponygirl, 19:11:40 11/12/02
Tue
Still coming down after that episode! Wowza. However one
thing struck me, Jonathon's speech about missing everyone,
friends and enemies both, seemed so familiar. I rewound and
watched it immediately after the episode finished. I just
thought of it now, the last bit of Catcher in the Rye Holden
talks about missing everybody he'd been telling us about,
even the people who'd been nasty to him. A bit of stretch?
However Buffy's therapist/mortal enemy's name was Holden,
and of course Holden Caulfield's great obsession was in
exposing the phoniness of others. Here we have an episode
filled with people who are not what they seem. Who are the
phonies here? Cassie obviously, Joyce possibly, Warren of
course, and Andrew. Then there's Spike. Of course in the
book Holden's not the most reliable narrator since he's in
the midst of a nervous breakdown.
What all this means I'm not sure, but Catcher in the Rye
does have one of my favourite quotes, which I will promptly
misquote here, that the immature man wants to die nobly for
a cause, while the mature man wants to live for one. It's
something that Buffy seems to understand, but thinking of
Dawn's actions last week I'm wondering if it's a lesson she
will have to learn.
Was Jonathon the catcher in the rye, trying to save everyone
and finally prove himself? Or is it Buffy, trying to protect
everyone from the realities she thinks only she can
comprehend.
Random now, coherence later! Looking forward to reading
everyone's take on this episode!
[> Wow...more thoughts (spoilers for 7.7
Conversations) -- shadowkat, 20:11:51 11/12/02
Tue
Holden Caulfield. I didn't read the book that long ago, but
yep the vampire reminded me of that character. And the
comment about being insane and working at the aslym.
Actually this episode almost drove me insane. Methinks part
of the reason I'm preferring Angel this year is I'm not as
invested in the characters. BTvs? Way too invested for my
own good. But I work really really hard to keep this out of
my posts. So forgive me if it inadvertently pops out
tonight.
Jonathan and his hopeless cause. The poor boy still wants to
be part of the SG. This episode echoed several great
Jonathan episodes:
1. Earshot. The vampire tells Buffy that the truth is
everyone feels alone and disconnected. He the vamp doesn't
really - because he's connected to the great evil. But
everyone else does. And everyone is self-involved and has
issues. Get over yourself. The vamps speech sounded very
similar to Buffy's speech to Jonathan in Earshot.
2. Superstar - Jonathan wants to be important to save the
day. He wants to be part of the gang. If we dig up the
truth, do you think they'll believe us?? Do you think they
will invite us to join them once we redeem ourselves?
Jonathan wants to be connected. In Superstar - he wasn't
though, everyone was beneath him, yet he in turn was beneath
them. Just as Buffy states - she feels above and beneath at
the same time.
What hit me was the comment what happened to Xander.
Well Jonathan is in many ways the anti-Xander. What Xander
might have been if it weren't for the SG. Jonathan also has
always been the damsel in distress.
In Inca Mummy Girl - Impata tries to kill Jonathan instead
of Xander, before Xander stops her. Jonathan's the stand-
in.
In The Wish - Harmony suggests Cordy go with Jonathan now
that Xander has dumped her.
In Prom - Jonathan gives Buffy the Class Protector
Award.
And there are many other episodes I can't think of
offhand.
But Jonathan has always been saved at the last minute.
Even last year - they saved him. And Jonathan in return
saved Xander and attempted to save Buffy.
It is fitting that Jonathan in his nostalgia for the good
old days of high school, literally fall into the BBS/First
Evil's trap. Jonathan sees high school through rose colored
glasses which Andrew shatters. He believes that these people
miss him. That times were better back then. It's odd b/c in
a way Jonathan hasn't advanced any further than Lance did
with his letter jacket. Both men are stuck in high school.
Xander has moved on - he constructed the high school - but
does he miss it? No. Andrew similarily hasn't moved past
high school. But his is a bitterness and rage and desire to
rise up above it.
Jonathan wants to die and make a difference. Ironically he
does die and make a difference, but not the one he
wanted.
The twist on the sacrifice.
The immature man sacrifices his life for a cause. The mature
one lives for a cause. Buffy has sacrificed herself so many
times. Yet she acknowledges the hardest thing is to live not
to die.
I wonder...what will they do with the other men in our
drama? We have Andrew who has killed for a cause - the BB's
cause, the ability to join Warren as a god. We have Spike
who also appears to be killing people - possibly for the
BB's cause, possibly against his will, or whatever insane
reason they've come up with to symbolize growing up?
And of course the non-existent Xander. The darkest,
creepiest, most disturbing episode so far - and guess what?
No Xander. That in of itself is interesting and I believe
deliberate.
Then we have the women. Buffy who I'm wondering isn't being
a tad suicidal in that graveyard. Dawn who appears willing
to do just about anything to reach her mother. Will who
refuses to buy what she sees or let it convince her to die
for a cause. She won't go quietly into this good night.
Yay Willow!! Willow was my hero in this episode.
Finally? methinks I understand why Amber wasn't overly
cooperative about coming back. They, as I predicted, wanted
her to play the big bad's interpretation of Tara as Jenny
did in past years. Shame. That would have been very
interesting.
[> [> Re: Wow...more thoughts (spoilers for 7.7
Conversations) -- celticross, 20:25:13 11/12/02
Tue
Hmmmm...guess I'm in the minority here on the no Tara issue,
cause I thought it was a good thing. I think Willow's
apologies and tears played so much more powerfully when
played through Morphy!Cassie. And if Tara had been there, we
wouldn't have had "She still sings to you" and Willow's
gorgeous reaction. *sniffle*
[> [> [> Re: Wow...more thoughts (spoilers for
7.7 Conversations) -- rose, 20:34:46 11/12/02 Tue
your not alone.
There was a minor chance that morphy could convince willow
that death wasen't so bad and get her to suicide.
There is no way at all she would belive Tara wanted her to
die. Tara's death was violent. not peacful not happy. notice
that it was cassie not tara tru cassie that suggested
suicide. After last year the first evil shuold have realised
that none of the scoobies would think their death would
help.
and the string of bloody images did not help morpy.
i wonder if willow who overcame the first evil can help out
her freinds out or is it going to take another snowstorm in
sother califiornia type mirical to save them? and how long
thill Johnothan's body is found?
[> [> [> [> Re: Johnathan (spoilers, of
course) -- Traveler, 20:48:02 11/12/02 Tue
It looked like his body was melting on the alter. I doubt
anybody will ever find it. Also, let me say: "poor
Johnathan!" Waaaaa! I liked him.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Johnathan (spoilers, of
course) -- rose, 20:57:38 11/12/02 Tue
I thought that was just his blood flowing around the
alter
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Johnathan (spoilers, of
course) -- still
thinking, 21:59:49 11/12/02 Tue
He was the Christ figure. I had no idea. They are trying to
completely blow our minds. IMO, it worked.
[> [> [> I agree -- darrenK, 21:30:07
11/12/02 Tue
I also think it was more effective to have "Tara" talking
through Cassie.
Not having her there meant that there was still this chasm
between them that made Willow's emotions more powerful. If
she had been there, they'd also have to deal with the
physical issue, can the wraith be seen? Touched? Hugged?
Kissed? Willow's reaction to "seeing" a fully articulated
Tara would certainly have been more physical than her
reaction to Cassie.
It'd be the first time in BtVS history that we might have to
debate whether or not the Big Bad is a good kisser.
There also a parallel with Same Time, Same Place. Suddenly
it seemed to be Tara who was there, but couldn't be seen or
heard.
Perhaps Same Time, Same Place was conceived to lay the
groundwork for the audience to make the assumption about
what Cassie was doing? Just a thought.
I also like the idea that Willow's memories of Tara are
unsullied by having the Big Bad/Hellmouth/First Evil/ Morph
thing steal her image and identity. And I like the idea of
Tara's presence as "negative space" both for Willow or the
audience.
On a whole other level, Alyson Hannigan's performance was
perfect.
dK
[> [> [> [> Great thoughts, dK! I agree with
you completely! -- Rob, 23:07:29 11/12/02 Tue
And perhaps the not-wanting-Tara's memory sullied is what
led Amber Benson to turn down returning to the show in the
first place? She said something in an interview about not
returning if she didn't like what was being done with the
character. Now, granted, she wouldn't have really been
playing Tara there, but maybe, even with that, she didn't
want to do that, especially after all the negative fan
reaction to Tara's death. The idea of her returning to
Willow, perhaps with kissage, etc, and then turning out to
be evil might not have sat right with her.
And in the interest of not psychologically damaging our
characters too much (I think Dawn got the greatest wallop in
that department, in this ep...They should stick with this
rule, btw...only crush one character per ep!), I think it's
better that it was Cassie who did it.
Rob
[> [> Re: Wow...more thoughts (spoilers for 7.7
Conversations) -- ponygirl, 20:26:43 11/12/02 Tue
I'm still a bit scattered with all my thoughts, but I'd
agree with your Xander/Jonathon connection. Jonathon is what
might have happened to Xander if he'd really had no friends
in high school, just as Lance last week was Xander if he had
never gotten out of the basement. Much to think about with
Xander and his absence, but I did really like the structure
of this episode so if turns out that Xander and Anya were
left out just 'cause I'll be fine.
I'd actually like to take a minute and mourn Jonathon,
because I think in his last speech he actually got to a
place he'd been striving for his whole life. He'd been
caught up in the fantasy before, he and Andrew with their
costumes and gadgets, wondering once more if by doing this
he could get in with the crowd he's always wanted to join.
But then down in the basement, like his locker combination
something clicks, he says he misses everyone, even the
enemies. He's moved past the pain and anger. Andrew tells
him that no one cares, and Jonathon accepts this. It doesn't
matter to him anymore, he at long last seems ready to let
everything fall away and just connect to others. Real people
who might not like him back. But that's ok. He finally grew
up. Superstar.
[> [> [> Re: Wow...more thoughts (spoilers for
7.7 Conversations) -- Caroline, 07:07:42 11/13/02
Wed
Ponygirl, great posts. My brain also went to Holden
Caulfield and I had similar thoughts to you on the
matter.
I was also struck by the paralelling of Willow and Buffy. I
wrote a character analysis on Willow in May where I
basically said that she had an internal superiority complex
that she overcompensated with an external inferiority
complex. For years she was all mousy and deferring to Buffy
until the end of S6 when all the superiority came out. Buffy
is the opposite - she has a sense of external superiority
but inside she has always wondered if she was good enough. I
also liked how they drove home the point that we can
sometimes learn more about ourselves from our greatest
enemies than from anyone else, precisely because they
challenge us in a way friends and family cannot.
As for Jonathan, we mourned him last night in chat, and even
canonized him posthumously. He will be missed.
I Wanna Be the First to Say It! -- Finn Mac Cool,
19:20:12 11/12/02 Tue
From Lessons: "It's all connected."
And yet, in this episode, the characters were most clearly
not connected. None of them interacted with each other.
Buffy even mention she feels unconnected, unlike the vampire
who feels connected to "this great evil force". Don't have
time to write something long on this, but I wanna have the
honor of pointing it out first!
[> But what they saw--was THAT all connected? --
luna, 19:34:12 11/12/02 Tue
[> [> Re: But what they saw--was THAT all
connected? -- Jade, 20:34:55 11/12/02 Tue
From very little digestion and only 1 viewing, it appears to
be a sophisticated play on each characer's fears: Dawn, that
Buffy will again be unavailable; Buffy, that she will be
incapable and undeserving of love and thus always be alone;
Willow, that she cannot control her power and will destroy
those closest to her...Obviously Andrew was
manipulated...but Spike????
And therefore were these all false, manipulative visions?
Did the vamp lie to Buffy about his sire? Was that not
really Joyce, just as that was not a message from Tara?
AND why no chip action?!
[> [> [> Re: But what they saw--was THAT all
connected? -- rose, 20:40:50 11/12/02 Tue
About spikes chip if the first evil or wat ever was messing
with thier minds tonight was affecying Spike it was probly
shoted out It seems to be able to affect elctrics w/out a
problem.
If not maybe he was to drunk to feel but he was acting sober
but why did he not go inside and where is xander ?
i thought Spike was playing roomie?
that might be bad
[> OMG! I'm soooooo sorry! Spoilers up to tonight's
7.7 in above post. Sorry! -- Finn Mac Cool, 19:41:07
11/12/02 Tue
Whisper in a dead man's ear (spoilers,
Conversations...) -- Darby, 19:27:48 11/12/02 Tue
Okay, that was amazing! First impressions...
This, I think, will go down as an episode equivalent to
Restless. Many clues of things to come, things that
are. More questions than answers, but fun, fun questions -
Why Dawn, Willow, and Andrew? Did there have to be a strong
connection, a love connection, with a dear departed human?
And if the entity could get some sort of valuable service
from Andrew and Willow, what was it trying to get from Dawn,
or was it all to set something up for later, to place the
asp in the bed? I gotta say, though, that the M.O. is way
too suggestive of the First Evil to actually be the
First Evil, right -?
The couch session with the vamp connects very strangely with
the admission in one of those recent interviews that Joss
samples the Buffyboards out t/here. Well, tv ideas have to
come from somewhere... This was the best throwaway character
the show's had for a really long time. I complained last
season that the combined Giles / Spike storylines had
deprived the Buffster of a real confidant, but
Conversations With the Dead balanced much of that
with one long scene. This is going to satisfy a lot of
people who have been angry that Buffy hasn't addressed the
problems we've all been seeing but thought she
was...denying, maybe? Nahhhh....
Random thoughts...
For a moment, it seemed that they were suggesting that
Andrew was a robot.
When did the show become Dawn the Teenage Witch? With
the power of extra shrilliness? And are the Summers girls
going to have to move in with Xander now too? At least he
can cut them a break on the repairs.
Jonathaaaaaaaaannnnnnn!!!!!!
It should have been Amber. And (this one from Sara) she
should have been in the opening credits. Azura, bless her
heart, was just a smidge too creepy from the start (where'd
the poetry come from? Go away!).
Just showing the dust settling was....bleaaghh! They'd built
up to it too much, he deserved a death scene. Sara
disagrees, she thinks he was too cool, seeing it play out
would damage the tone.
And, yeah, what the f*****'s up with Spike?
- Darby, still reeling a bit.
Title based on an observation by Sara.
[> Re: Whisper in a dead man's ear (spoilers,
Conversations...) -- Sophie, 19:38:31 11/12/02
Tue
Spike sings,
"Whisper in a dead man's ear
doesn't make it real"
in OMWF
S
[> ME is stealing! -- Finn Mac Cool, 19:54:13
11/12/02 Tue
Jane Espenson and Drew Goddard TOTALLY ripped-off cjl's
Sunnydale Vampire Reformation sketch with the psych major
vampire. OK, it wasn't exactly the same, but it was
strangely close.
[> [> Re: ME is stealing! -- Darby, 20:16:35
11/12/02 Tue
Finn, wasn't it you who suggested that the Big Bad might be
the Hellmouth itself? That could connect (pardon the
expression) to the departure speech "Cassie" gave.
[> [> [> Yeap, that was me! -- Finn Mac
Cool, 20:21:57 11/12/02 Tue
Though, I'm not clear how Cassie's speech connects to
that.
On a sidenote, over the summer, I predicted that getting a
soul would drive Spike insane. I'm two for two.
[> [> Joss and ME can't "steal" something they
already own. -- cjl, 21:40:26 11/12/02 Tue
Such are the perils of fanfic. That's why I don't write
extended one-acters instead of the brief playlets I post on
the board. It's a matter of playing with somebody else's
toys rather than inventing your own; I tried that with Star
Trek and all I got was misery. I invested too much of myself
into somebody else's characters. Never again.
Besides, Buffy's encounted with Holden is completely
different from my scenario with Sheldon. Holden is smooth,
savvy, confident, a master manipulator, easily able to
outmaneuver Buffy on the psychological level. But at the
same time, Buffy knows she can kick his ass from here to
Timbuktu if she really wants to, so she spares him the
deathblow until she's talked as much as SHE wants to
talk.
Holden, a freshly minted vampire, doesn't know about his
physical limitations. He feels he can wear Buffy down
mentally until he can gain the advantage and kill her. Smug
jerk has no idea how outclassed he is. Buffy knows she's--
ah, there's that word--superior, and doesn't consider Holden
a serious threat. Therefore, the encounter is essentially an
interior dialogue with Holden acting (literally) as her
devil's advocate.
Buffy finds out a lot about herself this episode, not to
mention a crucial piece of information about Spike. Holden
tells her you can only say these things to a stranger, and
Buffy tells him he's not a stranger. But Holden IS a
stranger. His intimacy was an illusion: he was simply a
mirror, a way for Buffy to delve into her own psyche. This
was the first meaningful conversation Buffy has had with
herself in a long, long, time.
[> [> [> cjl, you are so right. -- Caroline,
06:46:47 11/13/02 Wed
about Buffy.
[> [> [> Re: Joss and ME can't "steal" something
they already own. -- Darby, 07:05:56 11/13/02 Wed
Even if there's absolutely nothing to it, it's fun to
speculate that we might be inspiring the writers. I started
the "What if a vamp woke up coherent and confused?" thread,
and I've been mightily pleased to see such a scenario play
out twice this season. Writers are going to pick ideas up
from others, or live in a basement somewhere - it's a big
exchange out there, as our experience here shows. I wouldn't
have had 80% of my "Aha!" Buffy moments (probably more, but
I've gotta give the ego a crumb) without something here
tweaking my grasp of one concept or another.
I kinda like the idea that we might be stoking some show-
associated people's creativity.
It's all connected, y'know. I just made that up.
[> Re: Whisper in a dead man's ear (spoilers,
Conversations...) -- celticross, 19:56:50 11/12/02
Tue
"When did the show become Dawn the Teenage Witch? With the
power of extra shrilliness? And are the Summers girls going
to have to move in with Xander now too? At least he can cut
them a break on the repairs."
I just got done saying that in chat. :) But egads, Dawn,
I've been your defender, even in the matter of "Get out, Get
Out, GET OUT!", but ouch! My ears hurt.
-cc, slinking off to be shallow about great television
elsewhere
[> [> I think shrieking at evil things is
acceptable. If not, we Dawn Defenders are in hot water.
-- Finn Mac Cool, 20:09:12 11/12/02 Tue
[> [> [> Re: I think shrieking at evil things is
acceptable. If not, we Dawn Defenders are in hot water.
-- leslie,
14:02:22 11/13/02 Wed
Especially if the shrieking is accompanied by doing
something about it, rather than waiting to be rescued or
devoured. Hmmm, "from beneath you, it devours": wasn't that
whatever-it-was snacking on Joyce's body lying on the sofa?
Hard to tell in the brief flashes we saw, but....
[> [> [> [> The eating thing -- Finn Mac
Cool, 14:41:12 11/13/02 Wed
I thought it looked like Gnarl, personally.
[> Darby, we agree! Woo hoo! (Conversations
spoilers) -- Rob, 20:57:06 11/12/02 Tue
I am sooooo glad to be back on the Buffy Cheerleading Squad!
Maybe when I posted a negative review of "Buffy" last week,
thus messing up the universe, re: your theory, it has made
it unhinged for ever, meaning that we will agree from now
on. Ya never know!
This is just one of those episodes where you know watching
it that you're not gonna fully understand even a fraction of
it until the end of the season at least, and probably
longer. "Restless" was around 3 years ago, and we're still
trying to piece that one together.
I have just got to say BRAVO to Drew Goddard and Jane, 2nd
TKO in as many episodes he's written. So many questions,
absolutely no answers. I loved the composition of the entire
episode, both in writing and directing. There was something
very simple and elegant about the title card at the start of
the episode, along with the date and time, and then the
musical montage. Beautifully done! And since the episode did
take place in real time, an hour in the Scoobies' lives
(some of them, at least), taking place the very night and
time this ep aired, this links in with the "24" reference
from last week. It is all connected!
I can barely assemble my thoughts, but a lot of them add up
to: "Whaa---?!?" My mouth dropped to the floor on quite a
few occassions: Jonathan's death, Spike draining the woman,
Joyce's appearance, Willow figuring out that it was not Tara
who was contacting her. By the way, I knew that it wasn't
her from the moment "Tara" said it was okay that Willow had
killed people, that she was "just mourning," when she then
told her not to use magic any more despite what Giles said,
I was positive.
Anyway, can't wait to hear more discussion on this episode.
It was just a beautiful hour, with the perfect blend of
dark, deep, funny and creepy. I loved it!
Rob
[> [> You know what's really amazing?
(Conversations spoilers) -- Doriander, 21:19:18
11/12/02 Tue
I completely forgot until my 2nd viewing that I was spoiled
about Spike biting somebody. Most of us were. It was in last
week's trailer. Which I rewatched barely an hour before
tonights ep.
The moment Holden recognized Spike's name, I knew he'd say
Spike sired him. Still, Spike draining the girl SHOCKED me.
VERY compelling storytelling.
Jane and Drew are amazing. This is Drew's second ep right? I
hope he doesn't leave. I'm still missing Dan Vebber.
[> [> Yeah what was with the... -- ponygirl,
07:38:03 11/13/02 Wed
The time and date supers at the beginning? They looked very
classy, and I liked them but it was unusual for BtVS and I
don't understand what their purpose was. I don't think the
episode was supposed to take place in real time, unless
Sunnydale has a new five minute pizza delivery service, so
I'm a bit puzzled. It did look great though, especially
intercut with the band (and what was the band?) setting
up.
Rob, I'm glad you're back with the pom-poms! It was scary
last week without you.
[> [> [> I guess you're right about the "real
time." (7.7 spoilers) -- Rob, 09:02:50 11/13/02
Wed
...Unless maybe the Summers house is located right next door
to a pizza place! Or it did indeed get delivered in 5
minutes. I guess, then, the idea was not a strict adherence
to real time, but a general feeling that this takes place in
one night, and, in fact, the very night and time that we're
watching it. Gave it a real sense of immediacy and urgency,
I thought. Also, the scenes we saw perhaps were not spread
out the way they "really" happened, meaning there may not
have been a longer time between Dawn ordering the pizza and
her (very scary to me, with my fish-phobia!) ode to
anchovies...and perhaps a shorter time between her being
scared by the "poltergeist" and her finally casting it out.
This wasn't "24," where, for example, when we leave one
character, about to enter a car, and see a scene with
another, when we return to the first character 5 minutes
later, he will have driven somewhere. But I do think that it
was still meant to be an hour, or perhaps a little longer.
The title card, also, did set this episode apart a little.
Showed from the very start that ME was planning on doing
something a little different this week, kind of artsy, and
unusual, with the five elegantly paced "scenes"
(Buffy/Holden, Dawn/"Joyce", Willow/Cassie/ "Tara",
Jonathan/Andrew/"Warren, Spike/Bitee), each one basically a
full conversation from the start of the episode until the
end.
This is kind of a separate issue, but the more I think about
it, the more I wonder whether Holden was the First
Evil/Morphing Demon/Hellmouth/whatever thing, as well. I
wonder whether his seemingly nice exterior, which, a few
times, lulled Buffy into a false sense of security and was
able to attack her, was not just a further greying of the
Buffyverse, but a clue that this was also the Big Bad,
trying to make Buffy weak and vulnerable just as Cassie had
done to Willow, to try to slowly have her warm up to her,
believe her, and then kill herself. Out of all the
conversations, and all the "dead"--Warren, Cassie, Joyce,
Holden--the only one I'm not sure was the Big Bad Itself or
not was Holden. Any one have any thoughts on this?
Rob
[> [> [> [> Re: I guess you're right about
the "real time." (7.7 spoilers) -- ponygirl, 10:43:09
11/13/02 Wed
First of all, Rob you're scared of fish? ;)
I don't know, I kind of like Holden just being exactly what
he said he was, an evil vampire with a psych degree. He
seemed to be the only one who was being honest, and he made
a point of constantly reminding Buffy that he was evil. She
kept being surprised by his evil actions too, and he was
giving her fair warning.
Still he could turn out to be Morphy as well. I did find it
interesting that Holden said he felt connected to this all-
consuming evil force with an agenda. Never heard any vamp
say something like that before, they say they're evil sure,
but Holden's statement seemed very much linked to the Bad. I
wonder if it is a result of being vamped by an Under The
Influence Spike?
BTW does anyone have any info on the band at the Bronze? I
quite liked the song.
[> So you don't think Holden (spoilers for tonight-
7.7) -- Vickie, 21:31:50 11/12/02 Tue
You don't think Holden was actually mr/ms beneath you? I
did.
I sure hope Buffy and Willow don't play the Scooby keeping
secrets game this time. Dawn will never figure out that
wasn't her mother.
[> [> Re: So you don't think Holden (spoilers for
tonight-7.7) -- Rob, 21:36:20 11/12/02 Tue
"Dawn will never figure out that wasn't her mother."
Yes! That was, I thought, the cruelest trick the
BeneathYou!Demon played in the episode. It was pretty
ingenious how it first made Dawn think that she had to
exorcise the demon who was holding her mother hostage, so
that, when "Joyce" was "freed," Dawn would believe it was
really her. And with what "Joyce" said to Dawn, we know that
this is something Dawn will believe, and not tell anyone.
What can she do? Tell Buffy, "Um, I saw Mom tonight. She
told me not to trust you."
I'm betting that Dawn tells Buffy about the poltergeist (to
explain the wrecked house) and leaves out the Joyce
part.
Rob
[> Re: Whisper in a dead man's ear (spoilers,
Conversations...) -- Mal, 21:41:46 11/12/02 Tue
So much.
The good:
1) Ah, another episode 7 that kicks ass. Like clockwork.
2) The acting chops on the psych-vamp. Was that kid pouring
his heart out for his once-in-a-lifetime opportunity or
what? He had a certain cute, nerdiness that I really go for.
I liked him and sniffled when he got dusted.
3) The Mexi'ed car and Jonathon (another reverent sniffle)
with his Latin "From beneath you, it devours" which Andrew
had translated as "It eats you, starting with your bottom."
Ah, Andrew. Ever the closet gay.
4) Cassie. I just like Azura, creepiness factor and all. She
was brilliant as the Devourer -- very believable inflection
and Evil Eyebrows (tm).
The bad:
1) I almost couldn't handle the Dawn/Joyce scenes. Joyce's
clothes... her position on the couch... her creepy eyes... I
just saw "The Body" again on FX, and it just hit too close
to home.
2) No Tara, though I understand why.
3) Lack of Xander is one thing, but Dawn not calling the
number shared by both Xander and Spike when she couldn't get
through to Buffy? C'mon now...
4) Killing Jonathon and, worse, turning his very noble death
into a very real sacrifice for the opening of the hellmouth
or whatever that was? Oh well. Thankfully, as with every
major BtVS death, he got to really redeem himself before he
went -- final speech and all (a la Darla). Still, I sniffle.
7 years is a long time to relate to a character that
much.
The questions:
1) Where the hell is Xander? Where is Anya? Furthermore,
where is Spike? No, I'm serious. Where is Spike? Are we safe
in assuming that the Big Bad is somehow controlling him or
de-activating his chip? Why can't we believe that Spike is
being replicated by good ol' Morphy just like other dead
people were? Whatever was chasing Dawn was able to
physically hurt her, too. I went back, for grins, and
watched Spike scenes from the past 3 episodes and I'm not
convinced that the cool cucumber in the bar, the sire, nor
the chop-licking vamp were the Spikester. He's been so
tortured and even when he had on his blue-shirt "costume,"
was unable to hurt a human.
I mean, c'mon. At the end of last season as Spike rode out
of town on his motorcycle what were his words? "Things are
going to change..."? And then he threw the cigarette and
sped off? I mean, CLEARLY Spike had every intention of
quitting smoking. The interest in our girl's pack of
cigarettes must be our first sign that we weren't seeing the
real boy.
Sure, I'm grasping at straws... and I'm not even a
shipper!
2) Where the hell is Xander? I ask again. It'd be cool if
Xander and Anya were all off having their own adventures
with dead people. Anya could be yukking it up with Halfrek
and Xander with... whom? Jesse? Red-neglige Joyce from
Restless? The burning dancer who died in the musical
episode? I dunno but their lack was just too fishy. I doubt
that we'll find out that they were also affected by the dead
people, but I wish for it.
3) Who did Dawn kill with her spell? Seems to me that either
Morphy was working overtime and doubling his efforts by
playing two characters at once, or Dawn got rid of a "good
guy" who was trying to protect her. After all, if Joyce was
not Joyce, and the prank-calling, heavy-breathing demon was
telling dawn to get out of there, maybe Dawn made a big
oopsie.
Oops.
4) Did you catch the lighting on Not!Joyce? On her close-up,
the backdrop was perfectly split, with one half being glowy
white and the other pitch black. It's an old Hitchcock
trick, but it's effective. They've been pulling a lot of
those kinds of punches recently. Watch for it. And,
furthermore...
5) Will Dawn confess what/who she saw? I can see both Buffy
and Willow coming clean, but Dawn may not. Dangerous. I'd
say that if Morphy was putting out feelers, he's got a
nibble at the bait. Especially effective after the post-
train Buffy/Dawn talk last week -- all of that "If it means
keeping you alive, I'll give up what I want..." stuff.
6) Do any girls sing to their pizzas when they're home
alone? I mean, seriously.
7) Was PsychVamp a puppet for the Big Bad? I vote no,
personally. I think he was an innocent bystander who chose a
bad internship (I mean, seriously. Coming back to Sunnydale
from Dartmouth???) and got duped by the Not!Spike or
Pawn!Spike or whatever it is that's out siring people. I
thought he was genuine, even if that genuinity was a ploy to
get Buffy off her game, and that he was just a Dead People.
If anything, he was there to help those who don't frequent
these boards to get to the bottom of what is really going on
with Buffy. She even articulated the whole "Sex, death,
killing... it's all the same with you vampires!" notion. It
was as though the writing staff put their arms around the
casual viewer and, in as non-threatening a way as they
could, coo'ed, "There's a bigger, badder world out there,
niblet. Let us spell it out for you."
Besides, I disagree with the notion (as speculated
elsewhere) that the Big Bad was out tonight trying to
collect information to use against the Scoobs. In fact, the
Bad has intimate knowledge of the past and wouldn't need to
do that sort of recon. It knows Drusilla, the Mayor, Adam,
Glory, Warren, and the Master well enough to mimic them
perfectly, INCLUDING pet names for Spike and others, etc. It
knows both the kick-ass side of Buffy and her soft, caring
side. It knows about Jonathon and the musical episode and
Willow and Tara's bridge singing and Willow's misdeeds. This
was no intelligence-gathering episode. This was manipulation
of extant information.
8) WHY DIDN'T DAWN CALL XANDER? Ahem.
9) What was the movie that the Big Bad put on Dawn's TV? (It
wouldn't turn off, and Kit seemed to be watching something
else, though they should have established that they were at
least on the same channel when they decided to do long-
distance TV Date.)
10) Does Drew Goddard rock or what?
[> [> Mal is stretching to defend Spike???? --
d'Herblay, 22:20:03 11/12/02 Tue
Mal is stretching to defend Spike????
Is there a shape-shifting something impersonating
Malandanza?
[> [> [> Re: Mal is stretching to defend
Spike???? -- Mal, 22:23:56 11/12/02 Tue
Oh dear. I'm a different Mal... actually short for my real
name. Sorry. Didn't mean to confuse!
[> [> [> [> S'ok . . . I was afraid I might
be jumping to conclusions -- d'Herblay, 22:32:12
11/12/02 Tue
Though it should be noted that Malandanza (whom some
convivially addressed as "Mal," at least before the premiere
of Firefly) is in fact stretching to defend Spike in
response to shadowkat below. I suppose I should move my
little jape. Anyway, a hearty welcome to our new Mal (nice
summation, many good points) and my apologies for the
confusion.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: S'ok . . . I was afraid
I might be jumping to conclusions -- Mal-athustra?,
22:37:40 11/12/02 Tue
No prob. I'll try to think of a new name to avoid
confusion...?
[> [> [> [> [> [> Hey, we've got Rob
& Robert. Be comfortable, we'll deal. -- Darby,
05:28:59 11/13/02 Wed
If your analysis is any indication, you'll fit in very well
here, so use whatever name you want (and check JBone / Jay's
thread on names in the numbered archives!) - it's not as
permanent as a tattoo, but you want something you'll
like.
[> [> [> [> [> It's about power --
Malandanza, 07:18:31 11/14/02 Thu
"Though it should be noted that Malandanza (whom some
convivially addressed as 'Mal', at least before the premiere
of Firefly) is in fact stretching to defend Spike in
response to shadowkat below."
I'm not sure that Spike Lover, Miss Edith, Ete, Shadowkat,
Traveler and the rest of the Spike girls would think that
comparing Spike to Andrew constitutes a "defense."
I do think that the major theme of the season was set up in
the first episode -- it's not about good and evil, it's
about power. So it doesn't matter if William was a bad poet
but a good man, or that Spike was a noble vampire on a
mission of redemption or the Big Bad -- what matters is that
in a season about power, he is weak, powerless.
I don't have the reservation that seem to be surfacing about
Buffy and power. There are three people on BtVS with whom I
would be comfortable having great amounts of power (and two
of them are dead -- Tara and Jonathan -- Buffy is the
third). Each of the other characters have flaws that ought
to prevent them from having access to that kind of power.
Even when Buffy is at her darkest, her actions have not been
evil (although her motivations are sometimes
questionable).
[> [> [> [> [> [> Interresting : Power
& Power -- Etrangere, 10:05:03 11/14/02 Thu
Well, i did think it was nice of you or any "Snarkist" not
to go for the kill and starts the "told you so" posts about
Spike :)
And no, comparason to Andrew isn't exactly flattering
lol.
But Spike is currently weak. He's weak because he is
powerful. He's powerful because he is weak.
Exaclty in the same way that a superiority complex can
springs an inferiority complex. Or in the same way that, as
shadowkat explained us, a sexually submissive partner can
have more power in a relationship.
There's many kind of power and when you say : There are
three people on BtVS with whom I would be comfortable having
great amounts of power (and two of them are dead -- Tara and
Jonathan -- Buffy is the third).
you mention two. There's power in the first sense of the
word. The abilities you have, the control you can have on
the worlds, on other people. And then there is the power
that allows you to control your own power. To control your
desire to have power. Like Black Willow who was so powerful
but who was so weak the power controlled herself. It's the
Hanged Man vs the Devil.
It's all about power, but what kind of power ?
Spike used to be powerful, like any vampire. He was
confident in his own abilities, he was, like psy-vampire
described today, connected to a powerful source of evil.
Then he started not having so much power anymore. Chipped,
in love with the Slayer and her lapdog. And not even with
the power to control himself not to hurt the one he loves.
Spike realised you didn't have much power when you were a
vampire. Souls are power, they allow you to choose, to
control yourself.
But for that he had to remove everyother kind of power he
had. To be stripped of everything, of his identity. I don't
know what Spike is right now, and I have no clue about
what's happening currently. I'm sure the Big Bad
Shapeshanger is trying to control him because he has power
(like he is killing those Slayers in Training because they
have power - the Slayer power), he has a soul.
But the soul makes him weak, makes him suffer from guilt,
doubts, despair. Like Willow suffers from it, like Buffy
does.
Spiderman would say that with great power comes great
responsabilities. I'd say that Power IS
responsabilities.
[> [> Great post. Additional comments and theories
(spoilers for 7.7) -- shadowkat, 10:23:55 11/13/02
Wed
The Dawn/Mom portion scared me. It was the creepiest scene
since Forever. Also after just seeing the movie The Ring
last week - it also gave me the heebies. Will say one
thing?
Axing the appliances that were about to attack her? Way to
go Dawnie!
I agree with this statement absolutely and particularly
after watching the episodes again:
"the Bad has intimate knowledge of the past and wouldn't
need to do that sort of recon. It knows Drusilla, the Mayor,
Adam, Glory, Warren, and the Master well enough to mimic
them perfectly, INCLUDING pet names for Spike and others,
etc. It knows both the kick-ass side of Buffy and her soft,
caring side. It knows about Jonathon and the musical episode
and Willow and Tara's bridge singing and Willow's misdeeds.
This was no intelligence-gathering episode. This was
manipulation of extant information."
Yep. Otherwise known as Welcome to Your Worst Nightmare.
(Quick aside: The movie playing on the TV was either
Nosfertu or Dracula - one of the old ones. Black and white
and reminiscent of the vampire movie playing on Spike's tv
set in All The Way.)
What are these gals worst nightmares? Or hopes? Again ME
throws the watch what you wish for clause - you might just
get it.
1. Dawn wanted to talk to her mother. Okay - here she is,
but we have a nice nasty along with her and what she tells
you is your worst nightmare. (In just about every other
episode since Buffy returned from the Grave, Dawn has feared
her sister turning her back on her, killing her, or letting
her die...basically deciding that what happened in The Gift
wasn't worth it.) And what does Joyce say?
"Buffy won't choose you. She will turn against you."
2. Willow is dying to speak to Tara. Okay - here's a nice
little messenger name of Cassie that you identified with to
act as a guide. (I might have preferred Tara but oh
well).
And what does she tell Willow? She tells her worste
nightmare - if you don't die or stop magic absolutely -
you'll kill all your friends. Except the BB underestimated
our Willow, as it readily admits, Willow knew Tara far
better than that, and trusted Tara's love for her. She also
had Giles help her see the opposite all summer. So Willow
gets to the root of the matter.
3. Buffy is dying for someone to talk to, to let out her
anxieties. To deal with the fact that killing vamps just
doesn't feel right anymore. Why? because her archnemeses
fell in love with and went and got a soul for her and is now
helping her. In fact just last week, he stopped her from
blowing up the principal which would have been a huge
problem. Her dearest wish - is for someone to tell her that
vamps are still evil, and she's doing the right thing and
nothing is wrong with her. Guess what? Got your wish. Proof
positive they are still evil. But hey the kicker? Guess
who's siring new vamps? That's right - remember the guy who
loved you? Who go a soul for you? Who saved your butt last
week? That's the dude. Guess you need to kill him now.
Buffy got her wish and well Welcome to Buffy's Worst
Nightmare - it airs next week btw same batplace, same
batchannel. (Okay I watched Batman as a kid, sue me. ;-)
)
Onto the questions and my theories.
Where is Xander and Anya?
well this was a dark disaterous episode and Xander has been
super Xander lately. He's the heart of the group. The sturdy
every man. Mr. Fix-it. This is an episode about the heart
falling out, the center not holding, wishes/dreams becoming
nightmares. Xander doesn't belong anywhere near it.
Also we have Jonathan, whom I've decided is the anti-Xander.
And Warren's creepy comment that there is another - I'm
praying does not mean Xander and is just a Star Wars joke.
(I swear these writers are geekier then we are.)
Jonathan was the heart of the trio, the one still with a
conscience, still connected to humanity. Xander is the heart
of the SG, the one connected to humanity. Xander saves
Willow with love. Attempts to save Anya with love.
And takes Spike in, albeit reluctantly, and has him
help.
In this episode - the Trio sacrifice their heart as they'd
planned last year before Warren died and Andrew and Jonathan
got captured. It was forshadowed. (And well is another sign
of be careful what you wish for - this round the audience.
You want Jonathan and the trio back? hee hee.)
BTW - I think Andrew is the anti-Willow/anti-Spike,
Warren is the anti-Buffy now.
Anyways that's the reason we didn't see Xander. I missed him
horribly. Will never complain again about too much Xander, I
promise. (not that I ever did...but whatever).
Where is Spike? I think that's Spike's body, but I think the
big bad has control of our favorite demon's brain.
Not sure how yet. Have three theories:
1. It's a sleeper or hitchhiker planted along with the soul
in Grave last year. And the BB moved Spike or the hitcher
brought him to the Sunnydale HSC basement - for express
purpose of strengthening that agent. So it has more and more
control over Spike.
2. the BB has control over Spike's chip and is making it
work in the opposite way it did before. (Not sure this
theory works - since Spike looked seductive in this episode
and not in pain) But we see him fighting something
internally in Lessons, Beneath You and STSP and Help, even
selfless. He keeps grabbing his head. And he's in tons of
pain in Beneath You. If the BB keeps firing the chip
whenever Spike doesn't do what it wants that could explain
the winces we've seen. In HIM he was almost too contained,
as if speaking was an effort.
3. Spike is on a suicide mission and wants the SG to kill
him, so is siring vampires convinced that will do the
job.
Of course this does not explain why the chip worked in
Beneath You and Help. Although as someone pointed out - it's
possible that with the soul - the chip's pain doesn't bother
him as much or he's been training himself to get past
it.
4. Spike has split into two personalities. One is goodguy
Spike. One is demonSpike. DemonSpike vamps people and is
back to his old tricks =the Big Bad. Goodguy Spike helps
Buffy and tries to be a good man. Dr. William and Mr.
Spike.
5. Spike has been pretending all this time and is in truth
evil and has been having fun behind Buffy's back and ME has
pulled a big trick on all of us. Devils.
6. Spike and Andrew are pawns of the BB and being tempted by
the BB to do it's biding in exchange for big rewards.
I think that closes it. Personally I'm praying for option
one or two. My preference is for two because has best angst
potential for all concerned and well is the most ironic -
the chip which enabled him to live this long amongst the SG,
and rendered him harmless and gave him in Xander's words no
choice but to help them - is now doing the exact opposite
and the SG has to remove it from him or kill him.
But somehow i doubt this is what ME has planned. I swear the
whole chip storyline has the most misleads. I keep waiting
for them to do something interesting with it and do they?
nope. And this story has such well Focaultian and
Prisoner metaphors. Spike must rise above his chip or
artifical soul to follow dictates of his real one?
But knowing ME they'll probably disappoint me and go for
options:1 or 6. Making Spike just a pathetic shell for BB's
evil. Don't really see any far-reaching themes of growing up
in that scenerio but maybe there's something on female
empowerment that I'm missing? ugh. trust story trust joss
trust story...
Everything else? Ditto. And yes, Drew Goddard is a god. I
could even tell which sections he did. Hint they weren't the
Buffy ones. I know for a fact Jane wrote the Buffy sections
- b/c she said as much in an article posted on spoiler
trollop board and on www.slayage.com.
okay must stop posting now...off SK
[> [> Re: Whisper in a dead man's ear (spoilers,
Conversations...) -- leslie,
14:13:39 11/13/02 Wed
"[Spike's] been so tortured and even when he had on his blue-
shirt "costume," was unable to hurt a human."
Oh yeah? I think this episode answered once and for all the
question of whether that brief look of astonishment on
Spike's face after he impaled the suddenly human Ronnie
meant that he didn't feel the expected neural agony.
[> [> [> Re: Whisper in a dead man's ear
(spoilers, Conversations...) -- shadowkat, 16:45:12
11/13/02 Wed
"Oh yeah? I think this episode answered once and for all the
question of whether that brief look of astonishment on
Spike's face after he impaled the suddenly human Ronnie
meant that he didn't feel the expected neural agony."
Uhm not when you compare it to Help where he flinched and
held his head every time he hit the boy and he didn't hit
the boy that hard. Spike is superstrong - that kid didn't
have a black eye nor was he unconscious. Barely hurt
him.
The kid didn't get hurt until demon he raised bit him. All
Spike did was scare him off.
Question? Why go to the effort of showing us that the chip
was still working in both these episodes if it's not?
And the vamp in the grave was a recent one.
Hopefully they'll answer our questions soon.
But i saw the chip working in Beneath You and Help.
[> [> [> [> Re: Whisper in a dead man's ear
(spoilers, Conversations...) -- Malathustra, 22:24:45
11/13/02 Wed
Yeah, I'm not sold on the "he was surprised that the chip
didn't work!" bit. I've watched and rewatched and I never am
able to see it.
[> Restless Misdirection -- Buffyboy, 21:44:12
11/12/02 Tue
This entire episode seems to me to be one "Restless"
misdirection. Nothing is as it appears. Willow doesn’t
really talk to Cassie and Cassie’s not talking to Tara (just
imagine the power of these scenes if AB had been playing the
role). It’s not really Joyce held at bay by a monster that
Dawn needs to defeat in order to allow Joyce to speak the
truth; it’s all a ruse. The vampire Buffy meets in the
graveyard isn’t her old school mate, he wasn’t sired by
Spike and in fact he’s probably not even a vampire. And no,
Spike isn’t really feeding on people. Finally, Andrew
doesn’t really see Warren, though he may have actually
killed Jonathan. Who’s doing all of this deceiving? Of
course it’s the Big Bad, First Evil or whatever it is. Well,
at least these are my guesses. Great episode!
[> [> I agree -- Vickie, 22:49:05 11/12/02
Tue
on all points.
Won't it be fun to find out where we are wrong?
[> [> Re: Restless Misdirection (Spoilers for
Conversations with Dead People) -- Rahael, 07:30:34
11/13/02 Wed
Intriguing - I think I also agree with you.
Only demurral is the Vamp that Buffy meets in the graveyard.
I think he's a part of her. He 'exists' but really Buffy is
talking to herself. The battle she fights with him is really
a fight she has with herself.
It's that darkness she fears within herself - should she
talk to it or fight it? Should she make peace with it, or
shut it out? And the fact that Holden says he is 'sired' by
Spike - well, I think when Buffy talks about how she acted
last year, how she was cruel to Spike, and let him control
her, a lot of her new thoughts and feelings - they too were
'sired' by Spike.
[> [> [> Agree and disagree (spoilers for
Conversations) -- shadowkat, 10:41:37 11/13/02
Wed
1. Joyce and what happened in the house? A mislead.
2. Cassie wasn't really Cassie.
3. Vamp talking to Buffy? Not sure, but my guess? He was
real.
4. Spike? yep real. Because we aren't in any characters' pov
here. So whether that's really Spike or the BB pretending to
be Spike, don't know. BB pretending to be Spike makes 0
sense, since he does bite and drain the girl and as far as I
can tell BB can't do that yet.
It reminds me of other episodes this year - half real, half
false.
Lessons - the mirage? the three vengeance demons. The
reality Spike. Buffy believed the opposite.
STSP - Willow not being seen. the mirage? It was an outside
force's fault. Nope Willow's.
Selfless - the two Buffy's. White shirt Buffy = BB, Black
shirt Buffy = real.
Him = jacketed jock - not real love. S/X helping girls =
real.
Help = death by cult = not real. death by natural means?
real.
Oh and remember our lessons?
Lesson one? It's always real. Uhm Buff? What if it's
not?
Lesson two? It's about power. Uhm not completely. Apparently
it's also about who controls the power not who has it.
Lesson three? Everything is connected. Yet why does everyone
feel alone and disconnected?
Lesson four? We are who we are in the end no matter how much
we appear to have changed. Uhm what does that mean exactly,
Giles? Who we are at heart, apparently.
Lesson five? Don't believe what you see. Remember Gilbert
and Sullivan line: nothing is what it seems, skim milk
masquerades as cream. Or it's all about your pov.
Lesson six? Dying for a cause? Not always the best
answer.
Lesson seven? What happens if you can't help? Making a
difference is sometimes enough.
This all leads me to believe that Spike is real. Jonathan's
death is real. The BB attacked Dawn. Attempted to
manipulate
Willow. And used a vamp to get to Buffy.
Take it and run (as earl would say)
SK
[> [> [> [> Re: Agree and disagree (spoilers
for Conversations) -- ChrisR, 13:36:56 11/13/02
Wed
Delurking a moment to say that everyone's comments have been
very helpful in taking a disturbing episode and getting some
perspective.
Regarding Spike, I agree with SK that this is the real Spike
we are seeing but I also agree with numerous posters who
suspect that there is something very 'off' here. The more I
cogitate on this, the best I can come up with is that, like
Willow (no magic use at all or best yet, suicide), the BB
doesn't want Spike around for the coming Apocalypse. If he
is manipulating Spike to feed off/kill humans (somehow the
BB overrides the chip), and lets it be known to Buffy that
Spike is doing this (through Holden), then we have the
Anyanka scenario all over again. Spike must be killed, Buffy
will do it and that is one potential Scooby helper out of
the BB's way. Buffy's team is a person weaker.
The question is, if the above assumption is correct, how
will Buffy find out? How will she be able to see beyond
Spike's actions to what is really going on and how does the
group help Spike to free himself from the BB's
influence?
Opinions?
[> [> Re: Restless Misdirection -- yez,
10:25:20 11/13/02 Wed
I haven't watched Restless yet or the eps. that led to it,
but I understand that the Scoobies had to combine their
powers to defeat Adam, and then The First attacks each
individual to destroy the whole. Something like that.
So I was thinking whether the misdirection goes further. It
seems very obvious that It, the shapeshifter, is trying to
create division and/or neutralize the various Scoobies --
get Willow to give up magic, get Dawn to mistrust Buffy, get
Buffy to kill/mistrust Spike. So presumably, to It, "white"
magic is a threat, and maybe Buffy will eventually need to
call on Dawn to do something that Dawn must refuse for It to
accomplish whatever it's trying to accomplish -- so maybe
we're back to the Key becoming important to lock (or unlock)
dimensions. And why would Spike need to be out of the
picture? I don't know... I'm wondering what you get when you
cross a vampire with a slayer. If Spike were to "sire"
Buffy, would this be the crossing back of demon and human
species necessary for... something? Maybe a vampire with a
soul (and Angel's unavailable) is necessary to sire a slayer
-- a regular vampire would just drain a slayer, as Spike did
before -- if it were for some greater good?
On the other hand, maybe these attempts to split them up are
too obvious. Maybe it's an attempt to actually drive them
together again as they did before, and maybe them acting
together is exactly what It wants.
Or maybe I'm just really, really overreading this...
yez
[> About the scene in the library... (7.7
spoilers) -- Rob, 23:02:06 11/12/02 Tue
"It should have been Amber. And (this one from Sara) she
should have been in the opening credits. Azura, bless her
heart, was just a smidge too creepy from the start (where'd
the poetry come from? Go away!)."
I agree with you that I really wish it could have been
Amber, but I think Cassie worked well as a replacement, not
only because it makes the link between her and Tara even
more pronounced. And the excuse for why it wasn't Tara was
pretty clever. The stuff about Tara not being able to appear
because Willow had killed people was very believable, and
fit in with the logic of the Buffyverse--balancing life and
death, etc. What didn't fit is how this character, who had
told Willow that Tara could not come because Willow had
killed people, all of a sudden changes her story and tells
Willow when she says about all the people she killed,
something to the effect of "Don't worry. You were mourning,
etc." That's when I KNEW it wasn't really Tara or Cassie.
By the way, am I the only one who thought the scene would
play out like this:
Willow: Why couldn't Tara come herself?
Cassie: She couldn't strike a deal with FOX.
Willow: Huh?
Cassie: Um...because you killed people. (shrugs and laughs
nervously)
Rob
[> [> Re: About the scene in the library... (7.7
spoilers) -- CW, 06:28:54 11/13/02 Wed
I wonder if Joss didn't let Amber know what was in store if
she came back. Amber may have balked at the idea of ending
the character Tara as a villain or a tool of one. Just a
thought.
[> [> [> Don't trust them, they're
EEEEVIIIIIILLLL!!!! (7.7 spoilers) -- Darby, 07:21:42
11/13/02 Wed
Seems like playing something evil impersonating your very-
familiar character in a way that supports the impersonation
but would lay clues in retrospect would be quite a
challenge. To generalize, actors love that kind of
stuff.
And is anyone else suspicious that the timing of the "we
couldn't get Amber" announcements (from people like Joss, no
less) came closer to the release of this ep than would be
logical, since the ep would have been filmed what, a month
ago, with contracts worked out before that?
Don't be surprised if Amber does show up after all. Joss
doesn't lie, but he's not beyond twisting the truth until
you read something other than what he's saying.
- Darby-the-Conspiracy-Theorist
[> [> [> [> On the other hand... (7.7
spoilers) -- KdS, 07:41:57 11/13/02 Wed
It's just possible that the appearance of a demonic
simulacrum of Tara would have provoked a revival of
DeadEvilLesbian protest (as we would technically have had a
lesbian both dead and evil)
Possibly it was felt that it wasn't worth the risk.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: On the other hand...
(7.7 spoilers) -- Darby, 09:10:57 11/13/02 Wed
Actually, ME's history has shown that they like to address
such things playfully, even something like this.
Willow, having figured things out - "What, you're dead
and evil now? And probably straight and wearin' panty
hose, too!"
But they'd have done it, y'know, better.
Except that the evil & dead thing, um, never
happened...
[> Re: my conclusions (spoilers, Conversations...)
-- Jay, 11:36:21 11/13/02 Wed
I'm trying to sort through what we saw, what I think we saw,
and what we didn't see. There's terrible confusion, at least
on my part.
Buffy and Holden - I believe that Holden was a vampire who
was sired by Spike (more below). I don't believe he was
under the control of our yet to be named Big Bad anymore
than any other random vampire. But he was an excellent
distraction for our heroine.
Willow and Cassie - ME was a little more straight forward
with this mislead. Cassie was never Cassie, and Tara was
never trying to reach Willow. It was all mouth here. Willow
sniffed it out, and the mouth of evil gave us a big smile.
Mouth of evil trying to take one of the gang out, or at
least get her off her game, before its real plans begin to
unfold seemed authentic enough to me.
Andrew and Warren - Since I don't believe the Cassie that
visited with Willow was ever really Cassie, I'm gonna say
that Warren isn't really Warren either. Now this mouth of
evil really knows its stuff, what with all the intimate
knowledge it uses to trick us into believing that it really
is those characters. And Andrew is just too easy of a pawn
to manipulate.
Dawn and Joyce - I think Joyce was real. With the other
misleads leading us to believe they were real, and for us to
figure out that they're not real, but evil; I think this one
is put in with them so we don't realize that it was real
until later. Confused? What I'm saying is Joyce actually
appeared to Dawn at the end and gave her a clue for
something later. In the context it was presented in
Conversations, it seemed to us that mouth of evil is trying
to fool Dawn. But that is the red herring. I believe that
later on, I don't know when or how, what Joyce tells Dawn
will serve her someway in a totally different context that
will make sense then. I was hoping as I wrote this I would
be able to sort it out better, but this will have to do for
now.
Spike's siring binge - Man, I don't know. It could be
exactly what we saw. It could be a hundred other things. I
don't have a grip on this one. I think Holden has every
reason to believe that Spike is his sire. And whether he is
or not will hopefully be explained when this whole
development is explained.
Xander and Anya - I was initially happy they weren't in this
episode, so we wouldn't have another twenty questions to
sort through, but then I realized that their absence may
mean something. For every question this show doesn't answer,
it poses ten more.
I concede that I may be wrong on all of these. And I really
don't have a lot of confidence in what I have concluded, so
this is a perfect opportunity to talk me out of all of
it.
[> Still too much to ponder, but I would like to
mention... -- OnM, 12:38:46 11/13/02 Wed
*** Just showing the dust settling was....bleaaghh!
They'd built up to it too much, he deserved a death scene.
Sara disagrees, she thinks he was too cool, seeing it play
out would damage the tone. ***
Sorry, Darby-- Sara's 100% right about this. I loved that
edit and the shot that followed it-- very cinematic, and the
'tone' was exactly right. One of the wonderful ironies
employed there was that Buffy really liked talking with him,
despite her complaints, and she hated having to stake him,
but of course had to. It's a perfect complement to her
superior/inferior complex conundrum.
*** Title based on an observation by Sara. ***
Dammit! I thought I had a pretty decent (semi-obscure) title
for my own review this week, but I don't think I can ever
beat this one.
Oh, well, back to the ol' keyboard- uhh, -board.
[> Spike/William, spoilers for 7.07 and previous
s7 -- abt, 12:59:35 11/13/02 Wed
That vampire said he was sired by 'Spike'.
Since he's been ensouled, I don't think I've heard Spike
refer to 'Spike'. I have heard him talk about 'William',
refer to himself as 'William'. Although he does still answer
to 'Spike', he's been talking about 'William'. But
apparently he told this vampire that he sired that his name
was 'Spike'.
[> [> Re: Spike/William, spoilers for 7.07 and
previous s7 -- Darby, 20:18:45 11/13/02 Wed
Keep in mind that Spike has been hanging around Sunnydale
for a few years - Holden might very well have known him
casually or through references during semester breaks spent
in town. If someone like Spike hung out in your town's only
"cool" joint, wouldn't you know who he was?
But since when does Spike feed on guys?
And are we going to have to call this one Silent!Spike??
[> [> [> Re: Spike/William, spoilers for 7.07
and previous s7 -- rose, 08:37:41 11/14/02 Thu
I'm not shure he would know of him from around town at least
not by name.
Most of the buffyverse's older vampires seem to have a don't
notice me sign on them unless they are hunting. Even Buffy
did not see him in the bronze that first night and she was
looking for vammpires. She notices Jessie but not Darla. I
don't think a stranger would notice a vampire causally and I
dont think his name got mentioned very often outside the
scoodies and rarly in his presence.
he must have hunted men occasionaly alot of his minions
where male after all. remember Dalton
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