May 2004

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Andrew and Wes - general spoilers -- Ann, 08:04:12 05/07/04 Fri

Has anyone noticed parallels with Andrew's new look and Wes's past transformation from nerdy, less than manly watcher, to action hero-y guy? There was even a parallel scene that included a tux, extremely slicked back hair and kissing a girl. Andrew's sexuality has been fodder for discussion much like Wes's was. I am wondering what this means about the journey these two fellows are taking? And how and if they get the girl; Andrew with these two Italian babes, and/or Dawn and Buffy (?, I am still unsure of that) and Wes with Illryia/Fred. And what it means about what it is to be male in the me-verse.

The men start out being cookie dough in there own right. Their journeys both begin with questionable "manliness". By this I mean the stereotypes of courage and virility. I don't think those are what necessarily make a man, but our culture generally does. But it leads me to the question of whether they become baked as they integrate their masculine and feminine sides? Is that the goal? Is it just so they contrast with Angel/us and Spike whose sexuality, despite debate and lots of fan fiction about the nature of their relationship, is never questioned? And I am fascinated that Angel/us and Spike's "manliness" is never questioned whereas Wes and Andrew's is. Because of the mayhem Spike and Angel have caused? They have satisfied our cultures expectations of what it is to be a man. Only when Wes becomes more brutal does his portrayal of nerdy guy end. So will we see, and sadly there is not enough time, anymore about Andrew and his journey?

ps: I do find it interesting that Andrew's newest hairstyle was pretty much exactly the same as William of old. Is Andrew a reflection of pre-vamped Spike?

Replies:

[> I really enjoyed this -- JM, 17:47:59 05/08/04 Sat

I would like to respond, because I think you brought up some good points. I'd like to think on it. But there is a definite gender role thing going on.

Protective Coloration and Cultural Assimilation Among Vampires -- LeeAnn, 09:28:51 05/07/04 Fri

I've been thinking of Spike and Drusilla in the Ciao! Ciao! Ciao! scene. I think it is an example of protective coloration and cultural assimilation among vampires.

Spike is a chameleon. With each time period, each culture, Spike seems to take on that coloration, to make that time and that culture his own. In the 40's submarine he's quick to put on the Nazi coat without being a Nazi, because he likes the look. Even with most of the crew dead he's starting to blend in. In 50's Italy he has the closely tailored suit and the slicked back hair of the times. In the 70's he does the Billy Idol punk look and even learns to like punk music. In the 90's he's doing the Goth look. He's put on various costumes since then. Trying to attract Buffy he puts on a Riley facade in the beginning of Crush. The khaki slacks. The denim shirt and brown leather jacket. Also in Crush he does Riley's Initiative look with the olive pants and sweater. He did the watcher look in Tabula Rasa. I think it must be important for a vampire to be able to blend in, to look contemporary. As early as Welcome to the Hellmouth we've seen Buffy identify a vampire just by its retro taste in clothes.

Buffy: Oh, please! Look at his jacket. He's got the sleeves rolled up, and the shirt! Deal with that outfit for a moment.
Giles: It's dated?
Buffy: It's carbon dated. Trust me, only someone living underground for ten years would think that was still the look.

In Faith, Hope and Trick even Cordelia notices that a vampire is out of time (Cordelia: Check out Slut-O-Rama and her Disco Dave.)

Spike is continually making pop culture references. He doesn't just change his look, he assimilates the changing culture as well. I think that's part of his success.

Dru doesn't seem to do that. Almost every time we have seen Dru she is dressed in clothes that are somewhat like the clothes in the time she was raised. Long dresses. Frilly things. Things that wouldn't be out of place in the 1800s. But in the Ciao! Ciao! Ciao! scene she was dressed in contemporary 50's clothing. For a change. Maybe she had Spike and before that the Fang Gang to protect her so she needed less camouflage. But maybe that's why the Polish mob was able to identify and almost kill her. Dru's clothes would make her easy to spot.

Spike does change. Not so much for the last ten years but I bet BB (before Buffy) he was quick to change his coloration. I bet his willingness to change is an adaptation that helped keep him alive.

Replies:

[> Actually, in Angel Season 2 -- Finn Mac Cool, 14:10:35 05/07/04 Fri

I believe Drusilla took to wearing leather, as I think she might have in Buffy Season 2 as well.

Now where this ep fits in towards The Finale and an alt. 5.20 (GIQ spec and spoilers) -- Mike, 15:18:36 05/07/04 Fri

Hey, it looks like Angel & Spike dealing with their triangular affair with Buffy is out of place with the remaining arc for this season, yet there are certain points
to be addressed (some reiterated by what others ave said already). First, The Girl In Question does bring to the fore that A/B/S triangle love affair, a much-needed resolution to this issue. Perhaps the main reason Angel & Spike don't get along these days is because of Buffy. Either one has an intimate history with Buffy, and either one feels resentment and competitive to the other over this issue. If Angel & Spike are suppose to be side by side fighting the forthcoming W&H battle then they must resolve their differences to fight together. And the powers which brought the demon's head back to LA's W&H from Italy's W&H reveal further that one has to get on the inside to find out information. Meaning Angel must realize that he needs to deal with those really inside/behind W&H's apocalypse; he must find out more and fast and not just fight blindly.

Also how this ep could fit in towards the finale is how the others are doing. Wesley and Illyria are the other ones mostly centered in this ep. Their interaction, especially now with Illyria's ability to look and talk exactly like Fred, will probably yield results towards the end. Illyria seems to be turning more human ep after ep. And it may not be such a surprise now that she's stripped of most of her inhuman power, this is most likely why she decides to start fully masquerading as Fred. Gunn and Lorne are trying to help more or less with fully-noble intentions now, the way they use to be. They may feel helpless now, and in this ep their strongest fighters aren't near them (A/S in Italy on a mission, W/I wrapped in their own).

And the moving-on issue is probably going to hit Angel & Spike more seriously now, especially since Angel is seemingly up to something different in dealing with W&H.
Also considering certain things Angel had to deal with the last few years: compromise, sacrifice, manipulation, this would be another message for Angel to fight on his own terms. One tidbit about way back when, Angel use to fight evil in Buffy's shadow, under Buffy's terms. Maybe this ep is another underlying metaphor for Angel to officially take control for good in the good fight, no matter what it takes to take down the real evil - Wolfram & Hart.

I really liked this ep for what it was and how everything resulted for the issues that were being dealt with. However, this ep does feel like it could have came after You're Welcome, and definitely before Hole In The World. It does seem mainly out of place and the finale is nearing already. Ever since Smile Time, the consequences, W&H's true apocalypse, llyria, all of these things were building nicely towards the finale. Since it appears Eps 21 & 22 are like a two-parter, a big two-hr fight with W&H, Ep 20 was probably seen by the writers as a must to get in the Buffy issue and its resolution, and a fair reason to get in Darla & Drusilla for one last time.

I couldn't help but think if the series were still going on that Ep 20 would have continued on thoroughly with Angel's suspicious direction with W&H. I now have my own fantasy Ep 20 playing in my head. You know, what could have been Ep 20 and hopefully you'll enjoy this quick fantasy summary:

-The teaser would play out exactly the same as Angel & Gunn
are arguing over decisions being made about another case.
Angel seems to be becoming more tyrannical, picking up
from the end of Time Bomb. Hamilton would be prancing
around as well, keeping his stiff eye on Angel and what
his next move will be.
-The teaser would also include Spike in Angel's office,
irritating him as always. However, Angel would seem too
preoccupied to listen to Spike now because of his current
state.
-The demon's head case could still play out here, but maybe
the circumstances can change, i.e. demon's head in a
ritual to destroy others plotting against W&H. Could work.
-Imagine it, Angel is handed this case file by Hamilton to
retrieve this demon head so W&H can perform a ritual to
wipe out certain rivals bent on lowering W&H's hold on
humanity. Thus, the others will try to destroy this head,
but Angel must get it to the firm. These rivals, case in
point, would be unknown allies bent on taking down W&H.
-Wesley & Illyria's storyline would still fit well here,
all of it. At best, all those scenes the way they played
out away from Angel, Spike, Hamilton. While the others are
unknowingly counteracting Angel's plan to keep the head
for W&H, Angel is deceiving his friends more now.
-Just like Amanda's baby, Angel may feel another few
sacrifices are necessary, should he get closer to W&H to
figure out how to destroy them (this is the Angel I've
been leaning toward, on a strategic plan).
-Sacrificing unknown allies against W&H with this demon
head so Angel can really get on the inside with W&H fits
in with the act of sacrifice and compromise. It would be
really shocking and it'd look like Angel feels he has no
choice but to make sur the ritual gets performed as a
means to an end.
-In the end, Angel's friends and Spike believe they were
too late and had no way of getting to the demon head first
to save W&H's rivals. And in typical intense ending, we
could've seen Angel by the window, like Lindsey in Blind
Date, reeling from what he has done.
-Man, this hypothetical episode, IMHO, seems more the better
follow-up to the previous episode. The thread of "is Angel
finally turning evil and with W&H" could've flowed well
here.

I'll take what we all really got as Ep 20, but in an alternate reality, things may have turned out different.
LOL wishful thinking. Man, this summer's gonna hurt mourning ANGEL's end, late 00s upon, new shows in its vein would be nice.

Now where this ep fits in towards The Finale and an alt. 5.20 (GIQ spec and spoilers) -- Mike, 15:25:54 05/07/04 Fri

Hey, it looks like Angel & Spike dealing with their triangular affair with Buffy is out of place with the remaining arc for this season, yet there are certain points
to be addressed (some reiterated by what others ave said already). First, The Girl In Question does bring to the fore that A/B/S triangle love affair, a much-needed resolution to this issue. Perhaps the main reason Angel & Spike don't get along these days is because of Buffy. Either one has an intimate history with Buffy, and either one feels resentment and competitive to the other over this issue. If Angel & Spike are suppose to be side by side fighting the forthcoming W&H battle then they must resolve their differences to fight together. And the powers which brought the demon's head back to LA's W&H from Italy's W&H reveal further that one has to get on the inside to find out information. Meaning Angel must realize that he needs to deal with those really inside/behind W&H's apocalypse; he must find out more and fast and not just fight blindly.

Also how this ep could fit in towards the finale is how the others are doing. Wesley and Illyria are the other ones mostly centered in this ep. Their interaction, especially now with Illyria's ability to look and talk exactly like Fred, will probably yield results towards the end. Illyria seems to be turning more human ep after ep. And it may not be such a surprise now that she's stripped of most of her inhuman power, this is most likely why she decides to start fully masquerading as Fred. Gunn and Lorne are trying to help more or less with fully-noble intentions now, the way they use to be. They may feel helpless now, and in this ep their strongest fighters aren't near them (A/S in Italy on a mission, W/I wrapped in their own).

And the moving-on issue is probably going to hit Angel & Spike more seriously now, especially since Angel is seemingly up to something different in dealing with W&H.
Also considering certain things Angel had to deal with the last few years: compromise, sacrifice, manipulation, this would be another message for Angel to fight on his own terms. One tidbit about way back when, Angel use to fight evil in Buffy's shadow, under Buffy's terms. Maybe this ep is another underlying metaphor for Angel to officially take control for good in the good fight, no matter what it takes to take down the real evil - Wolfram & Hart.

I really liked this ep for what it was and how everything resulted for the issues that were being dealt with. However, this ep does feel like it could have came after You're Welcome, and definitely before Hole In The World. It does seem mainly out of place and the finale is nearing already. Ever since Smile Time, the consequences, W&H's true apocalypse, llyria, all of these things were building nicely towards the finale. Since it appears Eps 21 & 22 are like a two-parter, a big two-hr fight with W&H, Ep 20 was probably seen by the writers as a must to get in the Buffy issue and its resolution, and a fair reason to get in Darla & Drusilla for one last time.

I couldn't help but think if the series were still going on that Ep 20 would have continued on thoroughly with Angel's suspicious direction with W&H. I now have my own fantasy Ep 20 playing in my head. You know, what could have been Ep 20 and hopefully you'll enjoy this quick fantasy summary:

-The teaser would play out exactly the same as Angel & Gunn
are arguing over decisions being made about another case.
Angel seems to be becoming more tyrannical, picking up
from the end of Time Bomb. Hamilton would be prancing
around as well, keeping his stiff eye on Angel and what
his next move will be.
-The teaser would also include Spike in Angel's office,
irritating him as always. However, Angel would seem too
preoccupied to listen to Spike now because of his current
state.
-The demon's head case could still play out here, but maybe
the circumstances can change, i.e. demon's head in a
ritual to destroy others plotting against W&H. Could work.
-Imagine it, Angel is handed this case file by Hamilton to
retrieve this demon head so W&H can perform a ritual to
wipe out certain rivals bent on lowering W&H's hold on
humanity. Thus, the others will try to destroy this head,
but Angel must get it to the firm. These rivals, case in
point, would be unknown allies bent on taking down W&H.
-Wesley & Illyria's storyline would still fit well here,
all of it. At best, all those scenes the way they played
out away from Angel, Spike, Hamilton. While the others are
unknowingly counteracting Angel's plan to keep the head
for W&H, Angel is deceiving his friends more now.
-Just like Amanda's baby, Angel may feel another few
sacrifices are necessary, should he get closer to W&H to
figure out how to destroy them (this is the Angel I've
been leaning toward, on a strategic plan).
-Sacrificing unknown allies against W&H with this demon
head so Angel can really get on the inside with W&H fits
in with the act of sacrifice and compromise. It would be
really shocking and it'd look like Angel feels he has no
choice but to make sur the ritual gets performed as a
means to an end.
-In the end, Angel's friends and Spike believe they were
too late and had no way of getting to the demon head first
to save W&H's rivals. And in typical intense ending, we
could've seen Angel by the window, like Lindsey in Blind
Date, reeling from what he has done.
-Man, this hypothetical episode, IMHO, seems more the better
follow-up to the previous episode. The thread of "is Angel
finally turning evil and with W&H" could've flowed well
here.

I'll take what we all really got as Ep 20, but in an alternate reality, things may have turned out different.
LOL wishful thinking. Man, this summer's gonna hurt mourning ANGEL's end, late 00s upon us, new shows in its vain would be nice.

Replies:

[> Re: Now where this ep fits in towards The Finale and an alt. 5.20 (GIQ spec and spoilers) -- JM, 17:28:01 05/08/04 Sat

Agree about the hurting for new eps. I'm trying to get ready to say good-bye. Good point about the strongest fighters.

I was thinking that maybe it wasn't getting the Buffy issue out of the way, but making Spike and Angel aware that their Buffy-related issues were really about each other and not about Buffy, who's not in either of their lives currently. And also letting them know that there is at least one other person who understands their angst. They can help each other deal with "their girl." Nobody else really understands. Buffy's friends were never supportive of Spike and the Wes-Cordy pantomime was probably pretty accurate. They care, but don't really empathisize. Only Spike and Angel can understand how difficult moving on is. It was kind of cute.

Sometimes I try to imagine a whole nother season, if only they had it.

[> It fits in perfectly... (GIQ spec and spoilers) -- Darby, 05:24:43 05/09/04 Sun

There are 2 arcs this season: the Wolfram & Hart stuff and the love relationship between Angel and Spike (but not in a slashy way - and it's not just my interpretation, at least 2 of the writers have indicated this). This episode goes a long way toward "wrapping up" the Spike-Angel thingy, allowing full bore on the other plotline.

How did Angel know... -- buffyguy, 17:14:24 05/07/04 Fri

that Spike got his leather duster by taking it off the body of a dead slayer? i dont recall any instance where they talked about it with eachother

Replies:

[> also -- buffyguy, 18:31:55 05/07/04 Fri

what did spike say to angel in 1894 right before dru comes in saying "time for another pony ride?"?

[> [> Re: also -- buffyguy, 19:38:52 05/07/04 Fri

and if anyone knows what ilona says to her male-Harmony as she is walking into her office...dont know italian and wanted to nkow if she said anything important

[> [> Re: also -- Matthew Wilson, 03:11:45 05/08/04 Sat

"Best fit you for a pair of antlers. Been made a right cuckold, you have."

[> Re: How did Angel know... -- Darby, 05:20:26 05/09/04 Sun

They spent a LOT of time together in Season 2 Buffy, Angelus and evil-braggart Spike. Even if they didn't much like each other (but that, as we've seen, is an old situation), certain scenes indicate that they've been talking off-screen.

And this was back when the characters actually had relationships that continued when the cameras weren't recording them.

Anyone going to the Slayage Buffy Conference in Nashville? -- F\fidhle, 19:57:40 05/07/04 Fri

Just wondering if anyone else from the Board will be at the Slayage Buffy Conference on Memorial Day weekend in Nashville. I plan to be there. Perhaps we could meet if others are going to be there too.

Replies:

[> Oops, name is simply fidhle. My bad. -- fidhle, 20:01:47 05/07/04 Fri

[> Re: Anyone going to the Slayage Buffy Conference in Nashville? -- frisby, 05:20:22 05/08/04 Sat

I'll be there. I assume there will be a bar open late at the Mariott hotel for those of us who plan to finish each day there with a bourbon or what have you. I especially look forward to Saturday night viewing the videos by luminosity and others. I downloaded them long ago and watch some of them frequently -- especially "Rebel Love" -- and think those creations are some of the most interesting things of the entire buffyverse. The sing-a-long might prove fun too. Maybe see you there fidhle.

[> Re: Anyone going to the Slayage Buffy Conference in Nashville? -- Maura, 14:53:40 05/08/04 Sat

I'll be there. Looking forward to spending the weekend in a big hotel filled with Buffy fans:) Maybe I'll see you guys.

[> Re: Anyone going to the Slayage Buffy Conference in Nashville? -- gds, 16:38:38 05/08/04 Sat

What conference? I haven't heard of it. Where is it?

[> [> Go to www.slayage.tv for details. -- fidhle, 16:49:04 05/08/04 Sat

The conference is put on by Middle Tennessee State University and is run by the people who run Slayage.tv, the online journal of Buffy studies.

SMG on Angel -- ghady, 07:34:17 05/08/04 Sat

I read this on http://www.buffy.nu/article.php3?id_article=4437: "But Gellar, citing a scheduling conflict with a film she was working on in Japan, said she could only make it back to the U.S. in time to appear in the series finale of "Angel."

The show's creator, Joss Whedon, nixed Gellar's offer late last month."
WHYYYYY would Joss do that//????

Replies:

[> Re: SMG on Angel -- CW, 08:29:42 05/08/04 Sat

Cause it wasn't the episode he wanted her for. Writers have lead times, and Joss couldn't afford to bring SMG back just for a cameo (ie. even less air-time than Andrew got last week). She's not a cheap-to-rent actress, and Joss would like to stay on good business terms with her.

[> [> Re: SMG on Angel -- Ames, 09:19:49 05/08/04 Sat

Also, Joss went on to say that the series finale belonged to the Angel cast who helped make it the unique series that it was over the years, and it wouldn't be right to take time out of the final chapter of their story to bring in a last-minute guest star.

[> [> [> But isn't that what he did with DB on Buffy in Chosen? -- DorianQ, 10:53:56 05/08/04 Sat

[> [> [> [> Re: But isn't that what he did with DB on Buffy in Chosen? -- ghady, 11:04:40 05/08/04 Sat

Well, yea it is, but Angel was originally part of the BtVS gang. He was a pivotal character and was incredibly crucial to the show. Buffy was never part of the AtS team; she was merely a guest star at all times; no one there really "knows" her like the Scoobies know Angel. So DB appearing in Chosen was kinda like everything coming full circle. You get? (that doesn't mean we shouldn't be HAPPY if SMG DOES appear on Angel, though.)

[> [> [> [> [> Re: But isn't that what he did with DB on Buffy in Chosen? -- heywhynot, 05:32:18 05/09/04 Sun

Not to mention his role in Chosen was giving Buffy a necklace. What did he give her in Welcome to the Hellmouth? A necklace.

Question on Jasmine -- Jean, 09:16:18 05/08/04 Sat

Why ,when Jasmine's happy spell thing was broken, did people see her as a decomposed face with maggots and all. Did people like sub consiously chose this image or what?

Replies:

[> Re: Question on Jasmine -- Alistair, 22:57:24 05/08/04 Sat

I have thought about this same question. I doubt that the true human form of a power that be is a rotting wormy being, so likely Jasmine used her power in combination with something else to keep the mojo going. Once her power was removed by her true name, the mojo was gone, and a form which was the price of working the mojo came out. Still, she was able to use her powers to fix it as much as she could, coming out scarred and almost powerless.

It's not the fans we're mocking (Spoilers up to 5.20 "The Triangle") -- kuinileti, 10:10:49 05/08/04 Sat

In a great post below, cjl says:

"Oh, one more thing.... The whole "moving on" theme? DeKnight specifically said at Bronze Beta that he didn't mean to mock the fans' end-of-series grief, but it was hard not to interpret it that way. Spike and Angel ended the episode telling themselves they're ready to move on--but even they didn't believe it. I'm not ready, either."

I saw this episode as much less a mockery of the fans' devotion and difficulty with letting go as it is the WRITERS' own way of trying to let go. They're doing it the way they know best -- by making fun of themselves. Lots of these ideas are half baked, but I want to throw them out there in hopes that y'all, whose minds are so much clearer than mine on such things -- might be able to clarify.

Look at the key figures in the episode:

Buffy, our original, true, "forever love." In Joss Whedon's interviews, there is never an "Angel-verse," only a "Buffy-verse." She's a presence in the episode, but she's invisible. She's there but not there. She's a shadow (reruns and dvd's) but we get no new interaction with her (new episodes).

Rome, an ancient marketplace. A place of crossroads, where ideas and money meet. Does Rome represent Joss and Mutant Enemy? The place where all of these things -- characters, ideas, money, negotiations, good and evil, the chase, etc. -- co-exist? All of the original, important characters to the Buffy-verse's mythology are chasing about Rome during this episode: Buffy and the original 4 vamps. The Immortal has apparently hopped in and out of Rome many times throughout history, and crossed paths with our protagonists there on more than one occasion.

The Immortal, "a giant, a titan straddling good and evil, serving no master but his own considerable desires." Does the Immortal represent the fans? The network executives who swing the axe? Syndication? He's snuggling up with Buffy, but in a mysterious, invisible way. He's also had a hand on (to put it delicately) Dru, Darla, and other side characters such as the charming lackey in love.

It's hard to say exactly, but I'm given to think that The Immortal represents syndication, DVD's, and other ways that the fans can continue to enjoy the stories in a sort of on-demand way. Is this syndication (immortality) good or bad? That's the mystery. It's good because the story lives forever, but it's bad because it represents a death of sorts.

ANGEL: He's got her, Spike. He's got Buffy. Why does this always happen to us?

SPIKE: It's him. It's the Immortal. This is what he does. Every time he shows up I either lose my girl [BtVS?], get beaten by an angry mob [Firefly?], or get thrown in prison for tax evasion [The original Buffy movie?]. Long story.

ANGEL: Yeah, well, you know what? It's different now. We're different.

SPIKE: You're damn right we are! We're not going to be his shemps anymore!

Then, later --

LACKEY: You must be so lonely. Your girlfriend has become lovers with The Immortal. How unfortunate for you, and how fortunate for her.

SPIKE: It's been his plan all along! Steal our head, keep us busy, and traipse off with my girl! Our girl!

The Capo di Famiglia: The head that they're chasing after throughout the whole episode. Angel and Spike make a deal ("You give us the money, we give you the head. The money, the head. The money, the head.") only, after the exchange is made, the head they were working so hard to earn blows up in their faces. What is that head? The promise of one more season. Angel was almost pulled at the end of last year, then renewed. The head dies, then pupates, and is reborn -- but the magic has to be performed in time. The message to the fans?

ILLONA: (After the bomb explodes in place of the head.) They always do that to first-timers in this country. Did I not mention that? I love the two of you so much, but brute force will only get your precious head smooshed!

Is this a note to the fans? A little thanks to the fans and to saveangel.com, etc...? Who knows what's been going on behind the scenes with negotiations, or if the fans' considerable efforts have hurt or helped their own cause?

ANDREW: It turns out, Buffy fell for The Immortal on her own [series ended, rather than being canceled] and now she's happy. That's it. The Immortal's cool and all that but he's got his flaws.

Andrew, the relative newcomer. He's charming, he's nerdy, he's smart but stupid. He's ambiguously gay yet doesn't seem overly tortured by it. He's rumpled in a bathrobe one minute, then transformed into a slick ladykiller the next? Please, people. Andrew represents Drew Goddard in the best and worst of ways.

Is Goddard trying to move on? You bet your ass he is. At the beginning of the episode he's perfectly comfortable, if sloppy. He's at home with himself in his apartment, and by the end of the episode, he's put on his best clothes and is going out on the town. If that's not a metaphorical job search -- Goddard effectively touching up his resume and sending it out -- I don't know what is.

On the Bronze Beta, DeKnight said that they had originally intended for Dawn to play go-between for Spike/Angel and Buffy but that Trachtenberg was unavailable. Goddard went ahead and wrote himself into the episode. Charming!

The coats. Ah, the coats. Spike's coat represents the slayer lineage, the mythology, all of it. It, like the slayers, can be killed -- but then a new one appears. This seems to be Joss's way of saying, "Hey, yeah. We can't save our shows, but the idea isn't dead in me." He's already been fairly successful in taking his ideas and mythology into a new venue with Fray. Are there other plans?

Angel's coat, on the other hand, represents something different. It represents his broodiness, his dark-hero stance, his internal struggle. It's his posture. In "Guise will be Guise" back in season 2, the coat takes on a life of its own.

The swami in that episode, the T'ish Magev, is fake, but what he says about the coat may not be. He teases Angel about driving a convertible in LA, about layers and layers of black in spite of all the sunshine, and about the hair gel. Magev's point is that there are two Angels -- the persona he's worked so hard to create and the real him.

The coat represents the persona, and when it is destroyed by the explosion-in-place-of-head (the cancellation of the show?), he gets a new coat. One that's more representative of the Mexican wrestler from earlier this season, as was also pointed out in a thread below. One that is less tortured soul and more flashy hero. One that prepares him to re-enter the Buffy-verse in future, non-AtS Buffy projects? One that prepares him for syndication? Maybe, but what did he tell the fake Magev in season 2?

MAGEV: So, why all the layers, all the black?

ANGEL: It's just, this way I don't have to worry about matching.

Maybe that's the problem with AtS? They never really matched with what the network executives expected out of a series. They kept trying to cancel it and never could. They couldn't seem to understand its appeal, its fanbase, or its critical acclaim. In the end, it was a choice -- either be forced into a mold that didn't fit (the new coat) or abandon the old one and join Buffy in syndication immortality.

In the very end of the episode, The Immortal delivers the head to Angel's office in LA. I don't know when the episode was written, or what the state of the network negotiations were at the time, but rumors have flown about movie deals, miniseries, 6 2-hour broadcast movies, etc. etc. etc. Is the head back in Joss's hands? Time will tell.

I don't know -- but I think the real love/hate Triangle in this episode consists of these three entities: the fans, Joss Whedon, and the network executives.

Replies:

[> This was just lovely -- Thanks -- JM, 17:06:21 05/08/04 Sat

I must admit, I was one of those who watched it once and came away, "Eh, meep, what?" But experience has taught me . . . don't mope, read the boards and always watch again. Second time I was on the edge of my seat for favorite vignettes I knew were coming next. (Same way for "Restless.")

Now I'm feeling that the authors were not only saying good-bye themselves, but letting us say good-bye. We're not going to get a clip show. We might get a happy ending (I don't want to know) but we might not. Even if we do, it won't be touchy-feely group hug. This was our last chance to reminisce. Saying goodbye, it's sad, even when it's hilarious. Thanks ME.

[> Great post -- Seven, 09:33:40 05/09/04 Sun

I have read numeorus posts and also interpreted for myself plenty of episodes this season that correllate with the entire season being a comment on working within a television network. The parralells that ME have created are amazing whether they were intentional or not. For instance, listen to Illyria and Wes' speech at the end of "Shells" and percieve it with the idea that it is all about possible cancellation and the like. It all really works. Also, try to find a post that was up right after "Conviction" aired that interpreted the entire episode as Joss trying to work withing the system while creating something unique. It was really amazing and I think that the season works on that level even if it was unintentional. Check it out
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[> [> Conviction - 89 -life -- Seven, 09:39:40 05/09/04 Sun

This is the post That I was talking about. the title here is also it's title. Do yourself a favor and look it up in the October 03 archives.

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[> [> [> Awesome! -- kuinileti, 23:02:17 05/09/04 Sun

Thanks for the heads up. I'll check it out. I'm super interested in these sort of meta messages about the difficulties of being an artist or a creative worker in this current climate.

Coming Full Circle (Speculation Angel Season 5 to the Finale, Spoilers Though the Girl in Question) -- heywhynot, 12:09:40 05/09/04 Sun

Down below when talking about SMG not appearing on the Angel Finale but DB showing up on BtVS finale, ghady brought up things coming full circle. I responded with pointing out that Angel gave Buffy a necklace in both cases. On one level the same yet on others different, a theme repeated this season on Angel.

Illyria in Fred's shell.
City of... Opening/Season 5 Opening
Wesley & Gunn
Two Vampires with A Soul
Lindsay Playing Doyle, Spike Angel

Which brings me to another aspect of season one repeated in season five:
The one with the visions kissing the one they loved, dying to insure Angel would stay on his mission. Doyle & Coredlia, Coredelia and Angel.

Cordelia received the visions from Doyle through the kiss. What did Angel get? He doesn't appear to have visions. I have been rewatching You're Welcome again and rereading the transcript. Cordelia's wording has been bothering me.

CORDELIA
(turns to face Angel)
I can't stay. This isn't me anymore. You can say good-bye to the gang
for me, explain everything once you understand.

ANGEL
You know, um... I don't...I don't need to get that.
CORDELIA
(tenderly straightens his tie)
That you have to get.
(Angel walks toward the phone)
Oh... and you're welcome.

What is Angel to explain? Cordelia's appearance and then death? Cordelia explains it in her next lines. Not hard to understand at all.

The lines about getting on one level make perfect sense regarding the kiss but the wording doesn't seem the way I would think Angel would stammer about being kissed and the way Cordelia would respond. Maybe I am looking too much into things (heck I was one of those trying to read into the text seen in the opening credits of Buffy after all). Did Cordelia share a vision with Angel? A vision he didn't understand but will need to? It wasn't the kiss he did not need to get under this scenario but rather a vision.

"Serve no master but your ambition." We heard Illyria say this. We heard Angel repeat it at the end of Time Bomb. It was said again this past episode. What is ambition? In a manner of speaking, a person's aspiration, dream, vision. Is Angel now acting based upon his vision? Which would explain his actions at the end of time bomb. He has an idea what he is doing.

Replies:

[> "that you have to get" refers to the ringing telephone that Angel answers... -- Nino, 12:30:34 05/09/04 Sun

[> [> You are right- My brain filtered out the phone ringing.. Amazing how the mind works. -- heywhynot, 12:46:47 05/09/04 Sun

Just rewatched that scene again. You are right. When i watched it the first couple of times, the phone ringing did not register . It is background noise.. It is pollution in my mind while watching Angel. I used to get tons of telemarketing calls while watching Buffy & Angel. At some point, my brain just started ignoring the phone ringing while I watched them. Pretty cool the way the mind works. Looking back at my TV viewing, I tend to always miss the phone ringing on shows. Of course this colors the way I watch shows & how I perceive what is happening in an episode.

It makes my above analysis seem less likely. Of course in keeping with the theme of "shells", maybe the phone was the shell hiding the real meaning. Now what is that sound? Stretching perhaps?

[> [> [> Re: You are right- My brain filtered out the phone ringing.. Amazing how the mind works. -- Alistair, 13:39:11 05/09/04 Sun

While your speculation is speculation, Cordelia's appearance was a message from the powers. They want Angel to stay at Wolfram and Hart, they know that Fred will die and Illyria will arise. It is possible that the kiss was more than first appeared... it is possible that the Powers used it to send Angel a message.

Cordelia seems to have been constantly in contact with the powers during her one day back because she knew that the phone call is the news of her death, why not help Angel out. Maybe thats why she said, "and... you're welcome." Maybe she gave him a vision. The powers did owe her big.

[> [> [> [> Re: Perhaps Angel did get a vision! (YW to the present) -- Mike, 13:28:12 05/10/04 Mon

There may be a distinct possibility that Angel had received a vision from Cordelia. The more I think back to that kiss, the more this possibility rushes into my head. If this vision includes all that has happened since her death, there's a major revelation. It could mean that Angel knew all along, more or less, the things that were going to happen, especially Illyria's arrival. The vision may have taken time to comprehend, but now Angel could be facing the rest of that vision.

Illyria's arrival is not something W&H wanted, and, as Hamilton said, W&H isn't pleased with her continuing presence. Angel may have known earlier what was going to happen to Fred, and used this to bring forth Illyria to eventually fight side by side against W&H. And Cordelia getting Angel to remain at W&H could reveal that Angel had to stay there and get further inside in order to find a real way to defeat them. It does make sense and it would be shocking.

Not to mention if all this is true and his allies find out, Angel will then be the betrayer in their eyes and the team will disband. Also it would mean that recurring characters like Justine were right that Angel would eventually turn against his friends. Sacrificing one or more friends for the greater good in this scenario - defeating W&H - sounds like the grand-scale version of Angel's choice to choose 1000s over Fred.

This possible vision may have not included i.e. Connor's re-emergence, yet it would still be a huge vision for Angel to heed. And this possible revelation would prove that Angel has been seeing the big picture and stuck to it totake down W&H for good.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Perhaps Angel did get a vision! (YW to the present) -- skeeve, 15:16:00 05/10/04 Mon

I think improbable that he knew about Fred's soul.
If the PTB told him about Illyria, but not about
Fred's soul, methinks that Angel would be railing
against the PTB.

[> [> [> [> [> I would enjoy this...(spoilers thru now) -- Nino, 16:29:41 05/10/04 Mon

....It would make Cordelia's return much more important. I loved loved loved "You're Welcome" but I doubted the necessity of Cordy's return to the overall arc of the season...yes, she got Angel back on track...but did she really? If there wasn't a specific reason for her return, did her return really mean anything? When she kissed Angel, I thought for sure she had passed her visions. Since it was not brought up again, I kind of forgot about it...but it would be superb if, in the end, Angel did have some sort of vision that was driving him through the rest of the season. This would not only unify the season in a great way, it would make Cordy's return even more memorable and would help to explain some of Angel's actions.

I do not think that the supposed vision had to include Fred's death...this scenario could work w/o Angel being aware of Illyria coming to town (and Angel's attitude toward Illirya supports that he did not know). But, since the PTB did not wake Cordy up to save Fred, it seems as though there might have been a greater plan there...

....the only thing that might prevent the Angel/Cordy Kiss-Vision Theory (i named it myself!) is the fact that Cordy seemed hesitant to kiss Angel at first..."I'll be seeing ya.." she says as she moves to the door, before she decides "what the hell"...and plants one on our Champ...the kiss seems impromptu, and not part of her plans, or the plans of those that sent her...

....then again, the PTB didn't force Doyle to kiss Cordy, that happened because of how he felt about her. Likewise, the PTB may have been counting on Cordy to show her love to Angel with a kiss....

....here's hoping. I think that'd be a superb twist. And I'd like for Cordy to have a role in the final 2, even if she doesn't return...this seems to be a great way to do that!

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Perhaps Angel did get a vision! (YW to the present) (speculation towards the end) -- heywhynot, 16:59:02 05/10/04 Mon

I don't think Angel got a vision of Fred's demise. His reaction was totally Angel when things are desperate. The way he slammed the cell phone, charged off to England, etc. Angel was frustrated, angry, trying hard to save Fred, not giving up on saving her soul. If he had a vision, I think it would be a flash to how to fight the W&H apocalypse.

[> [> [> [> Re: Perhaps Angel did get a vision! (YW to the present) -- Mike, 13:30:53 05/10/04 Mon

There may be a distinct possibility that Angel had received a vision from Cordelia. The more I think back to that kiss, the more this possibility rushes into my head. If this vision includes all that has happened since her death, there's a major revelation. It could mean that Angel knew all along, more or less, the things that were going to happen, especially Illyria's arrival. The vision may have taken time to comprehend, but now Angel could be facing the rest of that vision.

Illyria's arrival is not something W&H wanted, and, as Hamilton said, W&H isn't pleased with her continuing presence. Angel may have known earlier what was going to happen to Fred, and used this to bring forth Illyria to eventually fight side by side against W&H. And Cordelia getting Angel to remain at W&H could reveal that Angel had to stay there and get further inside in order to find a real way to defeat them. It does make sense and it would be shocking.

Not to mention if all this is true and his allies find out, Angel will then be the betrayer in their eyes and the team will disband. Also it would mean that recurring characters like Justine were right that Angel would eventually turn against his friends. Sacrificing one or more friends for the greater good in this scenario - defeating W&H - sounds like the grand-scale version of Angel's choice to choose 1000s over Fred.

This possible vision may have not included i.e. Connor's re-emergence, yet it would still be a huge vision for Angel to heed. And this possible revelation would prove that Angel has been seeing the big picture and stuck to it to take down W&H for good.

Angel nabs 4 Saturn awards. -- Merle, 12:21:51 05/09/04 Sun

http://www.cinescape.com/0/editorial.asp?aff_id=0&this_cat=Saturn+Awards&action=page&obj_id=41467

"Ironically, WB's now-cancelled television series ANGEL received the second-most Saturns with 4 in total. Lead actor David Boreanaz took home an award for Best Actor in a Television Series while James Marsters won for Best Supporting Actor (Television) and Amy Acker for Best Supporting Actress (Television). The show also tied with CSI: CRIME SCENE INVESTIGATION for Best Network Series."

Also, scroll down a bit and find Firefly winning the best DVD TV release. Woo-hoo! Um, I mean, Shiny!

I'm not familiar with the Saturn Award. Exactly how prestigious is it? Is the "Academy of Science Fiction, Fantasy and Horror Films" as rinky-dink an operation as it sounds?

I'd be curious to see who/what the nominees in each category were. Trektoday.com says Angel/CSI beat Enterprise for best network show and Boreanaz and Acker beat out Bakula and Blalock, respectively. I have nothing against Bakula, but Acker's transformation from Fred -> Illyria is much more astounding than T'Pol's trellium addiction/emerging emotions. Are her outbursts (like Azati Prime's "I don't want you to die!") supposed to be revelations? While she and Phlox have had some quiet, sensible scenes together, on the whole I find her situation about as impacting as a finger gently poking me in the ribs. OTOH, Illyria not merely killing Fred, but toying with us by re-assuming her form, is not only plunging a dagger straight into our hears but gleefully twisting the blade. Surely Angel is capable of facing much stiffer competition than Enterprise can offer (although if they're just considering SciFi/Fantasy, the pickins are probably pretty slim).

Finally, if anyone peruses this list and wonders why Alexis Denisof doesn't appear, keep in mind that only human actors are eligible for awards. Alexis (if He can even be named) is so extraordinary that He must be an Old One. It wouldn't be fair to the rest of the mortals if he were allowed in the running.

p.s.: Amber Tamblyn!

Replies:

[> Check it out at www.saturnawards.org -- Darby, 12:53:18 05/09/04 Sun

spike's ghost -- buffyguy, 14:53:53 05/08/04 Sat

was spike's condition of incorporeality and subsequent re-corporealization explained? I mean, was it ever explained as to who recorporealized him? I know that lilah, and therefore W&H, gave the amulet to angel (seemingly for him to use. So we know W&H are responsible, by proxy, for Spike incorporealized state, but who gave him that flash box that gave him his body back?

Replies:

[> Re: spike's ghost -- JM, 17:17:15 05/08/04 Sat

What episode are you on? The answer is yessish, who, but no mechanical explanation of how. Just wanted to know how spoiled you want to be compared to where you are.

[> [> Re: spike's ghost -- buffyguy, 18:29:27 05/08/04 Sat

i have seen them all so far...maybe i missed something crucial, or maybe im completely vacuous...i dont know which one

[> [> [> Re: spike's ghost answer (splr YW & Underneath) -- JM, 05:53:40 05/09/04 Sun

It appears from Eve and Lindsay's comments that they were the ones responsible for re-corporalizing Spike. As part of Lindsay's plan. I think at one point he asks Spike "Got any good mail lately?" It's never explained exactly how they do or exactly why.

When is it revealed that... -- ghady, 08:25:46 05/09/04 Sun

a) Sahijan played around with the prophecies because of the whole "the one who is sired by the vamp w/ a soul" will kill him thing
b) Jasmine (i think) is why connor exists??

Replies:

[> Quick answers -- Tchaikovsky, 09:51:06 05/09/04 Sun

a) 'Forgiving', one of the very best episodes of Angel ever, and certainly Bell's best.

b) 'Inside Out', Steve deKnight's crazy yammering episode, (Copyright cjl, one of the greatest lines ever in an AtPo post- Such smoothly-directed yammering. When are they going to hit something?)

Though some/many have some truck with Skip's allegations.

TCH

[> Actually (b) is Shiny Happy People (links within) -- Masq, 10:29:59 05/09/04 Sun

(a)

(b)

[> [> Hey Masq.... -- Nino, 12:33:52 05/09/04 Sun

....did your analysis ever explain why when Fred and Angel were infected with Jasmine's blood they had to see her to realize what was going on, but when Lorne, Wes and Gunn were infected they understood without seeing her?

Just saw the reruns on TNT and that has been bugging me.

[> [> [> Re: Hey Masq.... -- Masq, the Queen of Wank-dom, 13:06:41 05/09/04 Sun

In my analysis of Magic Bullet I offer one fan's explanation that they didn't need to see Jasmine--the blood and Angel and Fred's explanation was enough--but another fan-wank is that the DID see Jasmine after they were cut and blooded, it just happened off-camera.

You know, they only get 43 of episode time these days, gotta cut corners. ; )

[> [> [> [> interesting, but... -- Nino, 12:37:50 05/10/04 Mon

....When the gang infected Connor with Cordy's blood they expected the affects to kick in right away, w/o much of an explanation and w/o seeing Jasmine.

bursts that little fan-wankin' bubble, no? :)

[> [> [> [> [> More wanks -- Masq, 13:15:36 05/10/04 Mon

Maybe seeing Jasmine was never necessary to being freed from the spell. It's just that, after you got cut, you also saw her as her true self. The first couple people to be effected were kind of weirded out by the blood and saw Jasmine fairly soon afterwards, so it might seem as if seeing Jasmine was necessary, but it really never was.

OTOH, Connor might be a special case because one presumes his blood was special like Cordelia's was, blood of the parent and all that. It's possible he always saw Jasmine as she really was and of course didn't care since he lived in Quortoth and didn't judge people based on their appearance.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: More wanks -- DorianQ, 15:36:56 05/10/04 Mon

That's certainly possible. Remember how distraught Fred was and breaking down in tears that she couldn't get Jasmine's shirt clean. Angel nearly went into Angelus mode after getting shot and nearly shot Fred. I think they were already cut off from her and were going into despair and rage but they didn't know why until they saw Jasmine. With Lorne, Wes, and Gunn, they could explain it to them right away and they would get it without having to see her.

[> [> [> [> [> [> the vision thing -- skeeve, 09:02:54 05/11/04 Tue

My theory is that the beautiful body was Jasmine's real body
and the maggoty corpse was the illusion.
For some reason, those who couldn't think got to see the real body and those who could think had to settle for the illusion of a maggoty corpse.

The most sensible explanation for Jasmine's real body being a corpse is as follows.
To occupy a body in this world, she needed to get to it before it was born (possibly before conception).
Presumably Cordelia's body did not give birth to a corpse.
Baby-Jasmine had the body it appeared to have.
Jasmine needed people to see an adult, hence the rapid expansion soon after.
The expansion produced a corpse large enough to be wrapped by the illusion of a beautiful adult female.

Where did the maggots come from?

My analysis of "The Girl in Question" is up -- Masquerade, 10:34:07 05/09/04 Sun

Lose your head here.

Replies:

[> Thanks! -- LadyStarlight, 10:55:34 05/09/04 Sun

[> Dude! Where's my head? -- T3E (who couldn't resist), 15:10:14 05/09/04 Sun

[> [> Re: Dude! Where's my head? -- Masq, 15:52:11 05/09/04 Sun

If you really had to ask, you wouldn't be able to ask. ; )

[> [> [> Re: Dude! Where's my head? -- skeeve, 08:27:11 05/10/04 Mon

Lorne would.
He just wouldn't know from where he was asking.

[> [> [> [> Re: Dude! Where's my head? -- Masq, 10:07:47 05/10/04 Mon

*Sigh*, yes, this episode could have Sooo benefitted from Lorne's headlessness talents!

[> [> [> [> y'know, i thought that too... -- anom, 10:54:23 05/10/04 Mon

....but then I realized that Lorne's head knew just where it was; the rest of him, which would need to ask the question, wasn't able to--just like Masq said!

[> [> [> [> [> Re: y'know, i thought that too... -- skeeve, 15:03:14 05/10/04 Mon

If we're being literal, if you don't know where you are,
you don't know where your head is.

If we're being silly, as was my thought, often the
problem at hand is getting one's hands on one's head
in order to put it back on one's body.
In that case, the question "where's my head?",
needs answering relative to your hands,
which might not be visible.
Depending on the severity of the injury,
the question "where's my body?" might also be useful.

[> [> Or, in the words of the Chemical Brothers: Where's your head at? -- angel's nibblet, 23:54:24 05/10/04 Mon

[> [> [> Basement Jaxx, not the Chemicals -- KdS, 04:06:35 05/12/04 Wed

And it may be a return of a shout-out, since Basement Jaxx performed "Where's Your Head At" on British TV with a dancer dressed and made-up almost identically to the First Slayer.

[> [> [> [> Woops! Showing my ignorance.... -- angel's nibblet, 15:40:21 05/13/04 Thu

[> thought you might like some comments on the actual analysis, masq @>) -- anom, 22:23:45 05/16/04 Sun

No deep insights, just some observations.

"One minute he's chaining up two of the most notorious vampires of his day--not to kill them, only to spend a little time with their women (who he also does not kill)--the next he's robbing Angelus of several nuns he wanted to victimize."

I think the Immortal's seduction of Darla & Drusilla was more of an opportunistic move than the actual reason he "detained" Angelus & Spike. His representative tells the 2 chained-up vamps they were interfering w/his interests (though he never says how) & required a "reprimand." This implies there was more to it than just chaining them up, & Spike did refer to the place he kept them as "the room of pain," but we don't see any pain administered (beyond the glove-slap the rep gives Angelus!). Then again, I didn't notice if they reused any of the torture props from Suburbihell in that scene.

As for the nuns, again, we have no idea why the Immortal saved them. Maybe it was a personal grudge against Angelus, maybe he had his own plans for them, or maybe he just has a soft spot for nuns.

"But Angel and Spike, distracted again, don't look in the bag before they hand over the money, and they manage to lose the head again. Not to mention their coats."

This was 1 of the things that bothered me about the episode: There are 5 seconds to go on the detonator when they 1st see it. And they just stand there staring at it? With their enhanced vampire eyeballs, reflexes, & speed, not to mention the survival instinct that's kept them undead for hundreds of years, they couldn't get far away enough from the bomb in that time to avoid getting caught in the blast? That's beyond distracted.

"They head back to Los Angeles without the Capo's head. But there will be no demon war for power. Luckily, the head is waiting for them back in Angel's office, a gift from the plucky Immortal."

Which raises the question of whether the Immortal had anything to do w/the headnapping or just stepped in at the request of Wolfram e Hart? Costa-Bianchi did say they'd had frequent & satisfactory dealings w/him, which, considering that the Italian office presumably is operating on W&H's usual evil agenda, may move him some way towards the dark end of the grey scale.

OT: Get our Rights back -- dmw, 19:06:43 05/09/04 Sun

The Digital Media Consumers' Rights Act (DMCRA, H.R. 107) has been reintroduced, offering us another chance to get back the rights we lost under the DMCA. The DMCA is also a national security issue, as corporations have repeatedly used it to silence criticisms of the security of their software from researchers.

"The DMCRA would:

~ Require clear, visible labels for "copy-protected" audio compact discs that identify their limitations [they won't play on many car and computer CD players] and applicable return policies.

~ Restore consumers' fair use rights by amending Section 1201 of the DMCA to allow circumvention of copy protection for non-infringing uses of the material. For example, it would allow someone to bypass the copy protection on a lawfully purchased DVD in order to view it on a computer running Linux.

~ Protect innovative, multi-purpose technologies. The DMCRA codifies a doctrine, outlined by the Supreme Court in its 1984 "Betamax" decision, which states that technologies with "substantial non-infringing uses" cannot be stifled by copyright holders.""

The Electronic Frontier Foundation makes it free and easy to write or fax your Congressperson at http://action.eff.org/action/index.asp?step=2&item=2421

Replies:

[> Re: OT: Important, and so is.... -- Briar Rose, 16:12:46 05/10/04 Mon

There are serious moves being made by the FCC and other government agencies to try and remove creative and artistic license and the persuit of free speech under not only FCC guidlines of taaste and themes, but adding "obscenity laws" that will ultimately be decided by people that may not have the same taste, intelligence and lifestyle as many others in society.

This always seems to focus on "pornography" and most people don't care if pornos are targeted.

But the zeal that is being shown by Congress and other factions in government is alarming!

At this rate, Buffy the Vampire Slayer would be considered "pornographic" for violence and sexual themes that show alternate sexual lifestyles. And I specifically include the Spuffy and Spru couplings. And Angel would also fall into that category , as could many of JW's creative ventures.

It never hurts to check out an organization such as the Free Speech Coalition and see exactly what the self appointed Morality Police are up too. Micheal Copp and Michael Powell are showing that they are intent to remove all forms of sexuality and violence from our arts and personal lives. Ms. Jacksons nipple is just the tip of the iceberg, and I mean that with no pun intended.

The US Patriot Act is a great example of US Citizens being asked to turn over their right to free speech and the right to view movies, tv shows and literature that they wish to have access to, in the name of "Patriotism" when it's nothing more than censorship of the most simple order.

[> [> Re: OT: Important, and so is.... -- dmw, 16:40:51 05/10/04 Mon

The US Patriot Act is a great example of US Citizens being asked to turn over their right to free speech and the right to view movies, tv shows and literature that they wish to have access to, in the name of "Patriotism" when it's nothing more than censorship of the most simple order.

Agreed. The "Patriot" Act expires in December 2005, so that will be next year's big political fight for me. The EFF has a nice series Let the Sun Set on Patriot. The "Patriot" Act takes away far too many of our rights, while giving us no security.

The US government had the data it needed to detect the attack on 9/11, but the problem was that it had too much data and insufficient capability to analyze the data to find the attacks. When you can't find a needle in a haystack, the logical solution is not to double the size of the haystack, but to do a better job of analysis.

I think security is a worthwhile goal, but we need to logically evaluate risks (should you fly or drive when 14 times as many people died in automobile accidents than in terrorist attacks in the U.S. in 2001?) and we should be sure that the tradeoffs we make (civil rights, wrongfully accused people, billions of dollars) for security are effective and reasonable. Instead, the US government invests heavily in security theatre at a huge cost in rights and dollars.

[> [> Re: OT:Since I forgot the URL for the Free Speech Coalition.... -- Briar Rose, 02:04:19 05/11/04 Tue

http://www.freespeechcoalition.org or click Free Speech Coalition Website

The Patriot Act must go. I agree with your analysis of the pre and post 9/11 security issues. Right now, it seems that all our US government is focused on is civil liberties and rights being stripped while some of our "leaders" (Rumsfeld comes to mind) are allowed to run amok without having to take personal responsibility for their actions, or inactions. I realize that he wasn't there or directly involved. But the very least he could do is take a personal interest in the abuse situation and not just give it lip service.

And just because I'm in that kind of mood... That chick in the prisoner scandle pics has a great future as a Professional Dominitrix when she gets busted down to civvy status and returns state side.*LOL

[> [> [> yes, very important. so i want to get this posted while this thread's still up. -- anom, 12:56:25 05/13/04 Thu

Some links for more info & resources:

Overview of Changes to Legal Rights
I found this on an interest group's site, but the original report is by the Associated Press.

The Bill of Rights Defense Committee is a project of the American Civil Liberties Union (disclaimer: @>) I'm a card-carrying member) that focuses on the threats to civil liberties in the US that result from the USA PATRIOT Act & executive orders passed since the 9/11 attacks. (BTW, did you know that's the official acronym for the law? It stands for "Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism." Well, if its provisions are Orwellian, why shouldn't its name be?) A lot of good info from local BORDC groups & other organizations around the country is on their flier page. I especially recommend the one called Eroding Liberty--it relates provisions in the Act directly to the clauses in the Bill of Rights that they violate.

One more, for more of a fun take on this serious subject: Mouths Wide Open. I had to include them--they have buttons that say "The Patriot Act Is Sooo 1984"! Check out this page for an image that even brings this post slightly back on topic.

[> [> [> [> Thank you anom! These are very important topics, and we all need to be aware. -- Briar Rose (refreshing), 17:13:07 05/13/04 Thu

That Vision Thing question -- ghady, 07:47:18 05/10/04 Mon

Ok, who the HELL is that guy trapped in the fiery prison?? Was the point of the episode merely the whole "you matter, Cordelia" philosophy? Will we EVER see that guy again??

Replies:

[> Re: That Vision Thing question -- LittleBit, 08:26:48 05/10/04 Mon

Just keep watching season 3. He'll resurface with a vengeance.

[> [> In one of the creepiest episodes Angel has ever done! -- DorianQ, 12:56:37 05/10/04 Mon

Buffy's reproductive lifetime (spoiler for TGIQ) -- skeeve, 09:10:06 05/10/04 Mon

seems likely to be small.
Another has noted that The Immortal is
likely to be a Highlander type immortal.
In the Highlander universe,
immortals are sterile and
Buffy is likely to be an immortal.
With her super-healing powers and
resistance to disease she seems
unlikely to die of normal aging.

Joss has at least hinted that
Buffy can get pregnant.
If Buffy is mortal and is not
subject to normal aging, that
pretty much leaves abnormal aging.
Being a fry cook will kill her.
Buffy is not a cookie. She is a
candle being burned at both ends.

It seems likely that she would expire
at a time she would otherwise be fertile.

The good news (for Buffy, maybe)
is that being raised might have
reset her expiry date.
If so, Faith and the Chosen, will
be dropping dead while Buffy goes
on for a few more years.

Replies:

[> Re: Buffy's reproductive lifetime (spoiler for TGIQ) -- Dlgood, 10:45:33 05/10/04 Mon

Another has noted that The Immortal is likely to be a Highlander type immortal. In the Highlander universe, immortals are sterile and Buffy is likely to be an immortal. With her super-healing powers and resistance to disease she seems unlikely to die of normal aging.

Where did this come from? When was it revealed that Buffy is supposed to be a Highlander-style immortal?

[> [> Re: Buffy's reproductive lifetime (spoiler for TGIQ) -- skeeve, 14:50:58 05/10/04 Mon

When was it revealed that Buffy is supposed to be a Highlander-style immortal?

It wasn't.

It's that what we know of Slayer physiology suggests
that she will not die of the natural causes that
eventually kill the rest of us.

Duncan can take more damage and still get better
than can a Slayer, so it's possible that the immortality
implies sterility rule doesn't apply to Buffy.

[> [> [> I have to disagree..... -- Briar Rose, 15:59:51 05/10/04 Mon

It depends on what you call natural causes.... Even if you consider murder as an "un-natural" cause of death, you have to understand that clinically most deaths are ultimately from "natural" causes.

Let's say a bullet enters Buffy's stomach (which it has.) Buffy will not be killed by the bullet. She would bleed out. The bullet was simply the thing that broke the vein and skin to cause her exsanguination.

She can obviously bleed out if any impact injury is bad enough. She could fall onto a fence post and stake herself. She could fly through a windshield in a crash and be de-capitated. That is not an un-natural cause of death. It is not "murder", and it happens in life.

She can suffer brain damage that causes her systems to shut down and death to follow from impact, or a form of heart related/circulation related trauma - many of which could be completely "natural", such as a blood clot or stroke.

She can drown.

And old age will ultimately kill us all. The body simply gives out. Sure, she might live longer than the average human female. But she will not live forever.

The Slayer's body would undoubtedly wear out faster than most people's through repeated stress and injury in the first years of their young adult hood.

Imagine the arthritis that all of these Slayers would deal with as they age.*LOL

As far as fertility - I would assume that Buffy, as well as other Slayers, would be highly fertile because they are the empowered and fit female of all classical mythology. The "Goddess" in them is strong. And almost all of the mythic Goddesses are extremely fertile.

Even if we don't see a Slayer as an Immortal (which they are NOT Immortals and that is cannon! "Crunch us... We'll make more.") the enhanced immune ability and strength would certainly make for a fertility higher than the average woman that isn't athletically fit.

However, and this is a caveat that I have to add because it could fit with SITs, and possibly with Buffy.... There is evidence that some women that overtrain phsyically and over extend their musculature find it harder to conceive. This is due to stresses and over work of the stomach and bck muscles that can cause cysts and scar tissue to the area around the uterus and ovaries.

There is also a correlation of regular menstrual cycles being throuwn off in women who are extremely physically active. As well as those that are underweight/bulimic and this can cause conception to be harder, yet not impossible. They are fertile enough, they just have problems with the egg and sperm meeting at an appropriate time to implant.

You have to remember that there is a difference with actual fertility and conceptional problems.

[> [> [> [> Re: I have to disagree..... -- Barbara, 16:58:12 05/10/04 Mon

Also, this may squick some of you guys, but in "School Hard" we know that Buffy does get her period, as Xander goes through her purse for a stake, finds a tampon and drops it like a hot potato. This usually indicates that a woman is fertile (the period, not Xander's antics...). Immortal? Don't know.

[> [> [> [> [> Lots of speculation, not an ounce of proof -- Majin Gojira, 17:26:55 05/10/04 Mon

Main Claims:

The Immortal was a Highlander Style Immortal -- Grand assumption. Only evidence is that he IS immortal, very long lived and well connected. He has more in common with Vandal Savage or The Immortal Kane than a Highlander, since he gets to be known as "THE Immortal" and not AN immortal.

Slayer Fertility -- What do we know:
Buffy Menstrates, thus she is fertile.
Slayers have a strong Lust drive, as seen in not only Faith, but Buffy when she was with Riley.
We have seen no Pregnant Slayers -- this is especially pertinent considering the sexcapades of "Where the Wild Things are" -- when in deep in the trance, it is doubtful that Riley changed contraceptives....
Slayers can have children -- as witnessed by Robin and Nikki Wood. we do not know when he was concieved, it could have been before or after she was called

Conclusions: Slayers MAY have a strong sexual lust, but it is possible that they are actually INFERTILE.

Slayers are Immortal -- HUMONGOUS leap of Logic. Just because a being has beyond normal human attributes does NOT mean they are either long lived or Immortal. Given their high metabolic rate, I'd assume they'd age a little FASTER.

[> [> [> [> [> [> you don't need a condom to prevent pregnancy if you have Birth Control Pills.... -- Briar Rose, 01:38:55 05/11/04 Tue

Majin - you layed it out fine up until your final hypothosis

< Buffy Menstrates, thus she is fertile.
Slayers have a strong Lust drive, as seen in not only Faith, but Buffy when she was with Riley.
We have seen no Pregnant Slayers -- this is especially pertinent considering the sexcapades of "Where the Wild Things are" -- when in deep in the trance, it is doubtful that Riley changed contraceptives....
Slayers can have children -- as witnessed by Robin and Nikki Wood. we do not know when he was concieved, it could have been before or after she was called

Conclusions: Slayers MAY have a strong sexual lust, but it is possible that they are actually INFERTILE.>>

I would change your first statement of fact to:

Buffy menstruates, there for she SHOULD be fertile. (However menstruation does not always equal viable pregnancies - but it does equal ability of fertility, if not ease of conception.)

But when you follow the fact that Slayers are lusty and that Nikki birthed Robin you can not negate your own hypothesis with 'Riley didn't use a condom' as any way to prove the hypothesis of "but it is possible that they are actually INFERTILE." All that really shows is that Buffy is using contraception or got lucky. A condom is not the only (nor best) form of contraception. Even if it is a great form of guarding against STDs.

All we know is that Nikki Wood had Robin Wood. And that no other Slayer we were shown had ever lived long enough to have a child, or we weren't privy to any other than Nikki that did.

So the hypothesis is still standing at 'Slayers are probably fertile' by my count of the arguments you've stated thus far.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> But there is no evidence of any other contraceptives being used in said instance -- Majin Gojira, 06:27:53 05/11/04 Tue

While I appreciate the input and pointing out some flaws, the only problem I have with it is the above mentioned statement. The condom was the only contraceptive seen to be used (that I can recall being used).

And as stated "Where the Wild things Are" sexcapades made it near impossible for him to change in between (Infact, we see him NOT change). The fact that Buffy DID NOT get pregenant leads to several hypothesis

Slayers may be less fertile than a normal human
Buffy was using another form of contraceptive (likely oral)
She just got VERY Lucky or was at a point in her cycle where there was no egg to be fertalized.

Unfortunately, Absense of Evidence IS Evidence of Absense. Because we have not seen Buffy using another form of contraceptive, no other form was used. (unless you can find an instnace in which it was seen/mentioned/etc). Same deal with Faith and Xander in Season 3 -- we did not see any protection being used, therefore we cannot say that any was used, hence none was used.

Options:
Slayers are not as fertile as normal humans
Faith got Lucky or was at a point in her cycle when she was not holding an egg.
Faith previously had her tubes tide or something similar occur (unsupported assumption)

Same happens when she slept with Robin.

Regarding Nikki and Robin. We do NOT know when he was concieved or born, nor how long Nikki was a Slayer. It MAY be possible that it occured when she was called, but it is far more likely that he was both concieved and born before she was called. Aside: a Pregnant Slayer is virtually worthless in regards to supernatural defence.

So...what do we know now:

Slayers have the ability to be fertile
Slayers have a strong sex drive
Slayers have never shown to become pregnant (though the slim possibility exists that they could)
We have 3 instances of unprotected (until proven otherwise) sex where no pregnancy occured.
It is not "cost effective" for a Slayer to become pregnant

Did I miss anything?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: But there is no evidence of any other contraceptives being used in said instance -- dlgood, 07:30:53 05/11/04 Tue

Unfortunately, Absense of Evidence IS Evidence of Absense.

To a certain extent. We never saw Buffy go to the pharmacy to pick up birth control pills. That does not necessarily mean it did not happen offscreen, and simply wasn't discussed.

Willow was engaged in a sexual relationship with Oz, and their methods for contraception were never mentioned or discussed. And she never got pregnant. Are we to assume something about witches and werewolves, or that they were using contraception?

We have 3 instances of unprotected (until proven otherwise) sex where no pregnancy occured.

This does not make for a particularly high sample size. Though it is noted that in seven years of BtVS, there were no onscreen teen pregnancies among either main characters or minor characters.

Should we take anything from that?
So we know enough to reliably conjecture?

Certainly, there are any number of arguments debating the feasability of a Pregnant Slayer, but none of these were ever addressed directly within the show. So again, how much is there upon which to base conjecture?

This doesn't mean we can't engage in speculation. But we do have to keep in mind just how much is such.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Lots of speculation, not an ounce of proof -- skeeve, 08:30:12 05/11/04 Tue

Yup. Mostly speculation.
More precisely, the Buffy is sterile notion rests on three really fragile legs:
She is in the Highlander universe.
The immortality implies sterility rule does not depend on the origin of one's immortality.
The health benefits of Slayerness causes the rule to apply to Buffy.

Does anyone know whether any Duncan-style(not gender) immortals ever menstruated?

It is clear that Buffy is not a Duncan-style immortal.
When she dies, she doesn't come back to life without outside intervention.
On the other hand, she is harder to kill than Duncan.
It's just that when Duncan has been killed, he's gotten better.

So far as we know, Buffy has only been sick once.
That was in Killed by Death.
She deliberately swallowed a number of microbes somewhat smaller than the amount Willow predicted* would have killed her instantly.
'Twas a dose unlikely to be encountered through normal contagion.

Though I expect a Slayer can bleed to death,
it's not clear that the bullet removed by Willow would have done the trick.
By itself, removing the bullet would simply have allowed more bleeding.
Remember that before removing a knife from someone you like.
It's possible that Willow did some blood vessel sealing as well,
but there is little evidence for it.

If Buffy is fertile, she shouldn't be too surprised if birth control pills don't work.
Her Slayer healing powers might heal any 'damage' done by the pills.

There isn't too much experimental evidence regarding Slayer fertility.
So far as we can tell, Buffy and Faith might be the first two Slayers to have had sex while Slayers.
Kendra certainly didn't.

*The basis for Willow's knowledge was not made clear.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> About birth control pills -- aka ms K, 11:04:10 05/11/04 Tue

My understanding is that birth control pills don't work by causing some sort of "damage." They trick parts of your body into thinking that you are already pregnant.

If slayers have something that naturally prevents them from getting pregnant then this might cause some problems with how birth control pills work. It wouldn't matter too much though because she wouldn't get pregnant anyway.

If she can get pregnant then the Pill should work and I don't see why her healing powers would lessen its efficacy.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: About birth control pills -- skeeve, 14:04:34 05/11/04 Tue

My understanding is that birth control pills don't work by causing some sort of "damage." They trick parts of your body into thinking that you are already pregnant.

Well, not my body.
In the case of a Slayer, it depends on the precise definition of "damage".
Inconsistent internal data (pregnancy hormones, no pregnancy)
might or might not be considered "damage".
I doubt we'll ever know.
Somehow, I don't think Joss is going to write that scene.

[> [> [> Re: Buffy's reproductive lifetime (spoiler for TGIQ) -- WOlfgang, 17:48:31 05/10/04 Mon

I assumed that the Immortal was more like the Mayor than Highlander immortals. He gained his immortality from occult ritual or purhaps a deal with some demon. I know the immedate response is that he dosn't use spells but i have a reply ready for that. 1) He is the one that insists he dosn't use spells, he could be lieing, and he could even be using a spell to make people believe he dosn't use spells. 2) the spell that gave him his immortality, and charm possibly may have come at such a high cost that he viewed them from than on as dirty. which brings us to point 3) if he is truthful than it is established that he currently dosn't use magic, its never been said that he never dabled. let's face it several thousand years of live and you have to try a little bit of everything at least once.

[> [> [> [> Re: Buffy's fertility(btvs s7spoilers) -- LuvsafunEthing, 21:25:09 05/10/04 Mon

As far as Slayers' fertility is concerned, they are certainly not sterile. Nikki, the Slayer from the 1970s whom Spike killed, had a son, Robin. Therefore, Slayers, in general, can have children. So, unless Buffy herself has some sort of physical problem, she will most likely be able to conceive. The idea also that Slayers could have enhanced fertility because of their unique physical makeup, is an interesting theory. However, we do not hear any other stories during all of Buffyverse which confirm that any other Slayers have had children. If Slayers indeed have enhanced fertility, it would seem that more of them would have had children. Although, most Slayers probably did not have the time to pursue relationships with men. But, again, we do not know this for sure.

Slayers were designed to live short, brutal lives. Their supernatural physical abilities allow them to be perfectly capable of fighting the good fight; however, at the same time, their longevity suffers because of this lifestyle. The initial plan was to have only one Slayer alive at a time, but this was thrown out the window when Buffy died the first time, and then, obviously, when she and Willow made all of the Potentials, Slayers. Now that all the rules have been broken, it would seem that most Slayers will likely live much longer lives. This is new territory. How will the Slayers age, what will their average lifespan be, will more of them have children, and will their biological clocks tick for much longer because of their physical makeup?

[> [> [> [> [> Even if a slayer DID get pregnant... -- angel's nibblet, 00:07:25 05/11/04 Tue

....what would her chances of going to full term be? Considering all the knocking about she would get, I'd say that chances of having a miscarriage would be extremely high.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Even if a slayer DID get pregnant... -- BrianWilly, 00:44:56 05/11/04 Tue

Are we talking post-S7 Slayers or pre? If we're talking about Slayers before Willow's awakening spell in Chosen then I agree: even if Slayers have gotten pregnant before it's unlikely they ever had the chance to carry for the whole nine and a half months, given their hazardous occupation. But now that there are many Slayers, more than enough to fill in for one or two who are taking time off, one would hope that they will come up with a system allowing for maternity leave and stuff.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Even if a slayer DID get pregnant... -- Jean, 07:56:16 05/11/04 Tue

In Tales of the Slayer vol.2 There was another slayer to have not just one but two children....The story was called abomination.....There were a few ppl in this thread that professed there have not been any mother slayers besides Nikki....well...here's one...Eliane

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> True, but... -- LittleBit, 09:09:57 05/11/04 Tue

The only "Tales of the Slayer" that has been considered for the possibility of being canon has been the graphic novel one for which Joss wrote two of the tales and the rest were all written by M.E. writers. Even then, it isn't considered canon by everyone because it wasn't part of the broadcast series.

I'd thought of that particular tale, and then I decided it wasn't really an argument for this because it really does depart, in my opinion, from known canon to a large extent. In it the Slayer (not yet Chosen at the time) loves and and has two children with her Watcher and defies the WC by refusing to act as the Slayer because they retrieved her husband (to send him to London for discipline) when she was called and a new Watcher was sent. Not only did she refuse but she specifically gave a vampire who had killed her two immediate predecessors full permission to feed on her village as a way to force the WC to return her husband...in France in the 1300s when communication alone, not to mention transportation across the Channel, could take weeks. Too many elements of the story go contrary to canon as presented in the show for it to be used as a 'proof' of other slayers hsving borne children.

[> I find the immortality argument interesting. -- BrianWilly, 00:38:51 05/11/04 Tue

Not in terms of Highlander immortalness, which I don't really know enough about, but Buffy's possible immortality in terms of the show's mythology.

As far as we know, no Slayer in the history of Slayerness have ever lived to an old or even middle age...in fact Buffy herself at 24 have probably already outlived most/all of them. Assuming that having mystical Slayer healing and heightened health means that Buffy is invulnerable to naturally occuring sicknesses...

But wait...we've already hit a problem right there. Buffy has gotten sick before. In Killed By Death, Buffy caught a fever which almost killed her. There was some vague implication that Der Kindestod might have inflicted the sickness itself, making it a mystical infliction...but nothing really solid. So we'll have to assume that Buffy can get natural sicknesses and possibly pass away by them. There goes immortality.

Not to mention the fact that Slayer physicality doesn't stop the process of natural aging. If it did, all the girls who are Chosen would have had their growth "frozen" at the age at which they were called, sort of like being turned into a vampires. And for all their similar roots and darknesses, it's clear that Slayers aren't vampires, they're human...they age and change. Buffy was called at 15, and we know that she has aged physically since then. Even if the age halt doesn't come until the Slayer body reaches peak physical shape, it's generally accepted in the scientific community that the body reaches its peak physical shape at about age 18 and again, Buffy's already past that age and still changing.

The fertility issue is also interesting. I agree with the notion that as the epitome of the primal Goddess ideal and physical womanhood, Slayers would naturally be quite fertile. Also, Nikki Wood has had a child, so clearly she wasn't sterile(Granted, we don't know if Robin was born before or after her being Chosen).

Another post mentioned the possibility that women who are too physically active and too intensively built experience some issues with fertility(just the same as men really). But then if we're assuming that being a Slayer means being as healthy and physically tip-top as you can be and still be considered human, that probably means these issues are also dealt with as part of the package...in every sense, being infertile implies physical and health-related flaws.

[> Re: Buffy's reproductive lifetime (spoiler for TGIQ) -- skpe, 05:56:24 05/11/04 Tue

The problem with Highlander type immortals is the rule 'there can only be one' Highlander type immortals usually kill each other on sight

[> [> There can be only one. -- skeeve, 07:44:33 05/11/04 Tue

The problem with Highlander type immortals is the rule 'there can only be one' Highlander type immortals usually kill each other on sight

I never figured the sense behind that.
My recollection is that there wasn't any time limit on it.
If time wanted to end, it would have to wait for one of the last two immortals to kill the other.
There wouldn't seem any special reason for immortals to kill each other.

I need help building an army (to all board members) -- Traveler, 11:21:36 05/10/04 Mon

So, I have a plan for saving "Angel" and I've already set some wheels in motion, but I'm obviously not going to be able to do it by myself. I could turn to the savingangel web sites, but there is a problem with that strategy. The approach thus far has been very scattershot--postcard campaigns, publicity stunts, newspaper articles, etc. My approach will be much more focused, and I need what I can only describe as a surgical strike team. I need to assemble a small group of highly motivated, highly trained individuals to work on specific one person (or small group) projects. I could just post this to the other websites and see what kind of responses I get, but I honestly don't have the experience or time to sort through the potentially hundreds of responses. How do I choose the best volunteers--ask for resumes and references? If anybody has ideas on how I could effectively recruit people, please let me know.

In general, I'm looking for people who are intelligent, articulate, and charismatic. Specific skills I'm looking for include oratory, web design, web security, database design, and marketing. First hand knowledge of advertising and the television industry is also a big plus. I'm sure I'll come up with more later, but that's a good start. Thanks to everybody on atpobtvs for your help.

A post-Angel survival project -- Masq, 12:05:30 05/11/04 Tue

I know it's a little early for planning summer ATPo projects. The season isn't even over yet, and we will be chewing on it for many moons after it does end (*sob*!). But I had this little brain storm over the weekend, and since it's gotten an enthusiastic response from the ATPoers I've run it by, I'm gonna run it by all of you now instead of waiting for summer.

Rumors are still abounding about the final fate of "Angel", but at this point I'm pretty resigned to there being no season 6. But I *want* a season 6. Really bad. So I've decided we're just going to have to write it ourselves.

So here's the idea: A "Season 6" fic-a-thon. Essentially, it would be a group fan-fic, like Dark Alchemy or The Fanged Four, except:

(1) Instead of one long story, there would be shorter individual story "episodes".
(2) Episodes would be planned and written much in the manner that Mutant Enemy does them, starting with (a) creating a season-spanning story arc, (b) breaking that arc down into individual episodes, (c) accepting "pitches" for specific episode ideas, and (d) assigning writers to individual episodes.
(3) Episodes would be written one at a time, and posted to the Existential Scoobies Fictionary page.
(4) There can be any number of episodes, with a max at 22, but possibly less (e.g., 6 or 13) depending on how the story goes, people's interest, time, etc.
(5) Writers would be assigned to specific episodes from a list of volunteers who would state their reasons for wanting to work on that ep and their experience with the featured characters/fight scenes/metaphysical widgets, etc.
(6) The story would pick up whereever ME leaves us at the end of season 5 (or possible "after the summer has gone by")
(7) Principal characters would be Angel, Spike, Wesley, Gunn, Illyria, Lorne and (possibly) one new female character invented by the participants. Other possible characters would be any past or present characters on the show we decide to bring back (including dead ones through flash-backs or revivification).
(8) This is Angel season 6, and we want it to be as close to what the ME writers would have done as possible. That means limiting the appearance of BtVS-only characters to one-episode cameo appearances that fit into the plot, if they are used at all. It also means the story would be fit for a TV-14 rating and would not include cross-overs with other fictional universes.
(9) We would start with story ideas based on ME writer's stated ideas for their own Season 6.
(10) Most of the behind-the-scenes planning, story-breaking and writing would occur via email and in locked Live Journal threads to avoid spoiling people who just want to be fan readers.

Sound like fun?

There are a lot of different jobs involved in this project, everything from story-arc planners to writers to beta-readers to gopher/assistants to just being a final product reader/fan. If you are interested in being involved, please email me.

Replies:

[> sounds like the most fun in years!!! -- Seven, 13:44:14 05/11/04 Tue

I, for one, am incredibly excited!! I'd love to do an individual ep or at least help out with the season arc, but I'll likely help out any way I can. There are posters more worthy than I to do those assignments. I hope that we wait till the end of the season to doll out assignments though. "I gotta go in fresh!!!"

Hope everyone is excited.

7

[> [> Re: sounds like the most fun in years!!! -- Masq, 13:58:18 05/11/04 Tue

Nothing will be decided until after the end of the season, 'cause we have to see how it all turns out. And even then, we will want to chew on what ME has left us with for a bit.

But there is enough enthusiasm that things will probably start happening sooner than I anticipated. I was kind of thinking we'd wait until after the Chicago meet, but....

[> [> [> I also think it sounds great! -- Finn Mac Cool, 14:18:30 05/11/04 Tue

I've tried writing alternate seasons in the past for various points of "Buffy" and "Angel", but have always been weighed down by the enormity of the prospect. With a bunch of posters working together on it, though, it sounds like it could be a great way to continue the legacy. Here's hoping there are some characters left alive to work with next week!

[> [> [> [> Re: I also think it sounds great! -- Masq, 14:43:47 05/11/04 Tue

Here's hoping there are some characters left alive to work with next week!

God I hope you aren't spoiled.

One of the rules above is we can revivify anyone we want. Of course, one of the other rules is we want to write the most realistic/likely season 6 as possible. That means holding ourselves to the constraints ME would be held to, like, "Charisma shows no interest in returning to the show" and the such-like.

Of course, we'll over look the "David B is tired of doing the show" thing. Can't have a realistic Angel without Angel.

[> [> [> [> [> One more yay vote :) -- Nino, 15:06:37 05/11/04 Tue

Sounds like a a fun summer project!

[> [> [> [> [> Does that rule mean... -- Tyreseus, 16:22:02 05/11/04 Tue

Connor is fair game? Vincent K indicated he would be more than happy to return to the show "from time to time" at Dark Horizons. If so, count me in!

Whether or not the writers realistically planned on bringing him back in a future Season 6 episode is up for debate, I suppose.

Tyreseus

[> [> [> [> [> [> Well... -- Masq, 16:35:34 05/11/04 Tue

At this point, I'm trying to drum up general enthusiasm for the project, which means not pushing my own personal agenda.

But yeah, I'd like to see the little nipper appear in at least one episode (I'm assuming we don't have to revivify him to do it? You're making me nervous now). Assuming it fits the over all plot of the season.

If not, well, there's always that other fic project I was thinking of, the "Connor Riley: Superhero" adventures, which would be All.About.Connor.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Excellent idea -- Jean, 18:12:01 05/11/04 Tue

Masq, I have to say your are nothing if not ingenious. Best idea I have heard to keep Angel going(in a fashion). No offense intended, but I never had much faith in the save angel campaign thingy....This however is very creative. And if you are looking for ideas for characters...I had always hoped to see a powerful gypsy on Angel...oh or maybe Anya(Big Anya fan here:) )..if that will fit, but back on subject. You are a genius...I give you many e-props

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Excellent idea -- Rob, 10:53:30 05/12/04 Wed

No offense intended, but I never had much faith in the save angel campaign thingy

Most people, from the start, didn't think that Save Angel would be able to actually save the series...but it did help the franchise enormously. Because of the huge fan response, we have a much greater possibility of future Buffyverse projects, something which was not as likely before the campaign began.

Rob

[> I'd love to, but -- Lunasea, 19:40:21 05/11/04 Tue

I'm moving this summer. I have to get my family set up. If you need a writer much later on, let me know. I'd love to do a Fred/Illyria story showing how Wolfram and Hart has affected Angel. It would fit anywhere in an arc for a nice "filler" episode.

[> Seeing as how CJL totally left me in the lurch on The Rescue Revisited... -- Rochefort, 19:55:57 05/11/04 Tue

I would SO like to be involved in this.

Rochefort

[> [> Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa..... -- cjl, 07:41:47 05/12/04 Wed

Rochefort, I'm sorry about this, I truly am. I hit a wall about three-quarters of the way through the chapter, and I haven't been able to get past it.

I'm still hoping to get my shit together so we can finish up Rescue Revisited before the Chicago get-together. If I can't solve my "third act" problem in a few weeks, I'll skip to Act Four, and lead up to the cliffhanger. Then I'll hand over what I've written so you can plug in the gaps and finish up.

[> [> [> O.k. : ) That sounds like a plan. -- Rochefort, 12:34:37 05/12/04 Wed

[> Count me in -- Cheryl, 21:48:29 05/11/04 Tue

What a great idea! I used to write Star Trek Voyager fanfic, solo and round robin, and would love to get back into writing again. I've also done a lot of beta reading, so just let me know whatever I can do to help out. And if Lindsey is part of the story, I'd love to be involved in that.

[> Interested, -- mrsubjunctive, 22:50:43 05/11/04 Tue

though I'm not sure to what degree. I'm also moving this summer, and I quit my job like six weeks ago and will need to find another at some point (I'm told), and yada, yada, blah blah blah. But I'd certainly read, and life permitting, it sounds like it'd be fun to be more of an active participant.

[> sounds cool! i'd be interested in editing (or beta-ing or whatever you call it in this context) -- anom, 23:16:58 05/11/04 Tue

[> Re: A post-Angel survival project -- LeeAnn, 00:20:11 05/12/04 Wed

Great idea...I've love to participate. I love how it would be done like ME does their writing.

[> Question? -- LeeAnn, 05:26:58 05/12/04 Wed

Were you thinking of the final episodes being in story form or script form?

[> [> That's still being decided -- Masq, 06:29:26 05/12/04 Wed

[> [> [> My two cents... -- Rob, 10:55:10 05/12/04 Wed

Script form, I think, would make it easier to feed our delusions that these are actual episodes...which is a good thing, no? ;-)

Rob

[> [> [> [> My problem with script format -- Masq, 11:05:00 05/12/04 Wed

I am used to writing in prose format, but that's neither here nor there.

Script format is dialogue-heavy and description-lite. A great deal is left up to the director to flesh out in the actual filming, and we are not going to have directors or actors, just writing.

Also, scripts usually contain no inner character thoughts at all, no delving into motivation unless it happens in a conversation between two characters.

I would prefer some hybrid approach where our scripts take liberties that often come with prose fictional writing.

[> [> [> [> [> Directors and designers -- Tyreseus, 17:28:05 05/12/04 Wed

For those writers who feel more comfortable writing in script format, someone could be assigned as director/set dresser/costume designer (HonorH, are you listening?) to add some description to the script version. Obviously these people would have to work pretty close with the writer.

Tyreseus

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Directors and designers -- LeeAnn, 17:40:37 05/12/04 Wed

I could almost see someone fleshing one out as a flash presentation.

[> [> [> [> Mine too! -- LadyStarlight, 11:22:27 05/12/04 Wed

I would much much rather do story format...but I could cope with script if that's the consensus.

[> Are non-Americans allowed to join???? 'cos if so... -- Marie, 06:10:53 05/12/04 Wed

....please can you wait for AtS to finish over here! (We're not that far behind you now - "Origin" was on last night).

Marie

[> [> Wasn't Origin da bomb?? -- Masq, 06:25:52 05/12/04 Wed

We have a Canadian and a Brit on board already. And I don't see this getting off the ground for several weeks, because we still have to chew on the end of season 5.

[> [> [> Don't forget the Kiwi! *jumps up and down for attention* -- angel's nibblet, 21:38:46 05/12/04 Wed

[> [> [> [> Yes, I thought of that this afternoon... -- Masq, 22:21:53 05/12/04 Wed

Do you know we have New Zealand tourist advertisements here in the states that say, "Accepting deserters".

[> [> [> [> [> Really? -- angel's nibblet, 15:32:15 05/13/04 Thu

Do you know we have New Zealand tourist advertisements here in the states that say, "Accepting deserters".

Is it inappropriate to laugh? Hell, I always laugh when it's inappropriate...

Is this replacing the "Come see Middle-earth, they haven't taken down the set yet" campaign :-P?

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Really? -- Masq, 15:57:55 05/13/04 Thu

Actually, that campaign just said, "Come to Middle-earth," without any mention of the movie sets. As if New Zealand itself were Middle Earth.

At least the ones I saw.

As for the deserters one, I find it very humorous. I just don't know how they got away with it in the current political climate here.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Really? -- angel's nibblet, 17:29:51 05/13/04 Thu

As if New Zealand itself were Middle Earth.

Well, some of us are rather hobbit-like...

As for the deserters one, I find it very humorous. I just don't know how they got away with it in the current political climate here.

Well, I find that I can get away with most things if I say it with a cheeky grin :-D...perhaps this is the advertising equivalent of that.

BTW thanks for allowing me to join in your most excellent project! I'm more than happy with being the anything girl! Whatever I lack in actual skills I will no doubt make for in enthusiasm.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Really? -- Masq, 19:41:40 05/13/04 Thu

Well, some of us are rather hobbit-like..

The funny thing about LJ is you start to imagine your friend's list people look like their icons. So I have a mental pic of you in my head as a female Frodo.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Really? -- ange's nibblet, 20:05:37 05/13/04 Thu

The funny thing about LJ is you start to imagine your friend's list people look like their icons. So I have a mental pic of you in my head as a female Frodo.

Hahahaha I only wish I was that pretty!

Yes, I have to agree with that- mentally, Rob is starting to look a lot like Fred :-|

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Really? -- Masq, 21:15:32 05/13/04 Thu

And I look like a tiny little girl in a pink shirt typing madly at her computer.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Really? -- angel's nibblet, 02:10:03 05/14/04 Fri

And I look like a tiny little girl in a pink shirt typing madly at her computer.

No, you're Connor! Feel lucky:-D!

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Actually -- CW, 07:08:00 05/14/04 Fri

She wears that giant butterfly mask to work everyday. People stop on the street and say, "Who is that masked woman?" Then someone older and wiser speaks up and says "She's the Lone Philosopher!" Then Masq cries out, "Hi yo, Silver, away!" and get's on the bus. Awe inspiring! ;o)

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Actually -- Masq, 11:05:29 05/14/04 Fri

Nope. In San Francisco nobody pays the slightest bit of attention to you if you walk around in a Mardi Gras mask.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Really? -- Masq, 11:09:18 05/14/04 Fri

I guess that means I can kick demon booty and look really *pretty* doing it!

Cool.

[> Re: A post-Angel survival project -- Duell, 09:39:24 05/12/04 Wed

That is probably the most fraggin' brilliant concept I have ever read on these boards, and I've been ghosting around on them for quite a while.

[> Masq, I have ideas for both a seasonal arc and a truly strange episode 6.1 -- cjl, 09:00:17 05/14/04 Fri

I'll give you all the details after the finale.

[> [> Re: Masq, I have ideas for both a seasonal arc and a truly strange episode 6.1 -- Masq, 09:49:57 05/14/04 Fri

Post them in _grr_argh_. Deeva has a thread there for collecting story ideas.

So, you're spoiled like two-year old milk. Are ME leaving us with anything we can work with? Just say "yes" or "no" or something equally cryptic. I can take the vagueness. I've got less than a week to wait.

[> [> [> Yes. -- cjl, 09:52:08 05/14/04 Fri

Are Hellgods the powers that weren't strong enough to ascend to the powers dimension? -- glory, 17:02:41 05/11/04 Tue

Jasmine explained that in the Powers origin story that the powers who could got stronger and left the Earth realm. Glory was getting stonger than her fellow hellgods so in time she could of ruled that dimension.

Replies:

[> Re: Are Hellgods the powers that weren't strong enough to ascend to the powers dimension? -- Alistair, 23:26:39 05/11/04 Tue

Glory appears to have been from a totally different world then the Powers. She appears to have ruled there until a thousand years ago when the war began and ended 26 years or so before season 5 when Ben was created by the hellgods to house Glory. They did not expect however that Glory would be powerful enough to actually control her vessel.

The Powers originated on Earth and left the Earth once the demons took over. The Old Ones who took over- the darker powers or demons from another dimension, may have been the source of the hellgods in Glory's world, but that is speculative and information unclear.

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