May 2003 posts

No Cookies for Riley -- lunasea, 12:32:26 05/31/03 Sat

Buffy and Rileyís relationship was an interesting one. It wasnít the gothic romance of Buffy and Angel, but in many ways it was just as doomed. Buffy and Rileyís relationship was plagued by the same things that her relationship with Angel was, namely Buffyís trust issues and the supernatural.

When Buffy wants to hurt Angel in ìSanctuary,î she tells him that she loves and trusts Riley. Buffy never tells Riley she loves him, which is why he eventually leaves. She also doesnít really trust him, not in the ways she does Angel. Riley isnít going to go all evil on her. She can trust that, but there is more to trust than that.

Buffyís trust issues donít stem from thinking that guys are all jerks or that the world is out to screw her, like Faithís do. Buffyís issues stem from her own non-acceptance of herself. She is worried that everyone feels about her like she does. Until she can accept herself, she will never accept anyone accepting her. That is why the scene with Spike in ìTouchedî is so important.

This plays out in her relationship with Riley. Her primary concern is how will Riley handle her Slayerness. She has killed more demons and as Riley tells her, he has to learn the plural of apocalypse. The world she shows Riley is more than the animals that the Initiative sees the HSTs as. Buffy is physically superior to Riley. Riley, being the great guy he is, not only can accept this, but admires and loves it. Buffy cannot see this, because she doesnít admire or love it. She tolerates it. She projects this tolerance onto Riley. This sets up Buffy being unable to talk to Riley about the sort of things he wants her to.

The episode that really deals with what Riley wants and why he canít get it is ìThe Replacement,î written by Jane Espenson. It opens with Xander/Anya and Riley/Buffy watching a movie in Xanderís basement. Buffy is actually studying history (something she hates) and is getting absorbed by it. As Riley asks ìWho are you lately?î He gets her to put the book down and watch the movie, which in typical Jane humor she proceeds to critique. Riley is trying to get her to just relax and enjoy the movie, as he tells her ìHey Buff, maybe you oughta leave the work behind sometimes.ì She does appreciate the back rub though.

This scene contrasts with the scene with Angel in ìWhatís My Line Part 1î where Buffy is upset about not having a future because she is Slayer and Angel offers to take her ice skating. First Riley takes her away from something she was into. Then when she starts to criticize the movie, Riley says ìYou're not always a slayer on duty, you know.î Buffy tries to explain to him why the movie bugs her, using terms he would understand, but he doesnít buy it. She even tries to use Willow to illustrate her point. This opening scene sets up how little Riley does understand Buffy.

As opposed to Angel. When Buffy tries to explain anything to Angel, she doesnít have to translate things or even explain all that much. He understands. They have a common bond coming from a common frame of reference. In WML, he knows about career week and how she is feeling. ìI'll never be a kid.î Can Riley possibly understand how Buffy feels about her calling? Not only does Angel understand how Buffy is feeling, but he knows what to say and do about it. He doesnít tell her to put being a slayer on hold. He doesnít bring up being slayer at all. He just wants to take her ice skating, something she used to enjoy a lot.

Another example of this is ìHelpless.î Buffy is worried about losing her powers. She tries to explain to Angel why she is so worried and Angel doesnít just dismiss what she says or tell her to knock it off. He lets her talk and shows her what she looks like through his eyes. He admits to seeing her called, which gives them another common bond that she shares with no other living soul. He loved her before she was Slayer. He has seen the real Buffy and truly loves her. He opens himself up and really says how much he loves her.

Riley does this in ìThe Replacementî as well. Riley gives a beautiful speech about how he understands that being slayer is who she is and that he wouldnít have her any other way. He wants all of her ìtoes, elbows,the whole bad-ice-skating-movie obsession, everything. There's no part of you I'm not in love with.î The ice skating was a nice reference back to WML and shows that Riley does know Buffy a bit. Problem with this is how can Buffy believe him? How can he possibly understand what she is? Being slayer is more than a job as she really learns that season. When he makes comments like he does when they watch the movie, how can she really believe that he feels that way? How can she trust that he loves *her*? She doesnít.

Compare that to what Angel says in ìEarshotî when Buffy is worried about what aspect of the demon she is going to get. She doesnít even have to explain to Angel what is going on. He knows this world and what he is getting into. When Angel says that heíll love her no matter what, she believes him, because he knows what no matter what means. That still doesnít prevent her from thinking that he likes Faith. With Angel, Buffy vacillated between trusting how much he loved her, to total doubt. At least with Angel she vacillated. Riley didnít even get that.

Poor Riley. We can debate whether Buffy should give him a chance or not, but Riley just doesnít have the background to really understand Buffy and this keeps her from opening up to him. This plays out most when it comes to Dracula and Angel, but because she has to keep that part of her from him, she holds back others, including leaning on him when her mother is sick.

Riley really does want to understand Buffy. Riley would seem like the perfect boyfriend for her. She doesnít have to hide her identity and he is trained in killing demons. He is everything that Angel wants for her (which is why he says he doesnít like him). Riley maybe can cope with the whacked world that Buffy lives in, provided he is given a chance to.

Thing is, how can Buffy think that Riley can handle this? When Riley shows a bit of openness about Oz and admits that he was wrong in ìNew Moon Rising,î Buffy decides that maybe he can handle some of her past with Angel. She leaves out some stuff, which Xander then fills in. She isnít ready to tell him everything, like she actually slept with a vampire. Souled or not, that sort of stuff is pretty hard to take.

How well does Riley take it? How should he take it? When he catches up with Buffy after her return, Angel has upset her and she wonít talk about it. When Angel shows up, Riley assumes that he is evil, which means that Buffy made him perfectly happy. With the lack of communication going on, it is a fair assessment. Thing is that assessment really causes Buffy not to open up again. She tells Angel to put himself in Rileyís shoes, but what she really needs to do is put herself in them.

Thing is she canít. She tries to figure out what he can and cannot handle, but she doesnít do such a good job. Because she keeps things from him, he canít handle what he does know. He is getting an incomplete picture and has no way to fill it in. What he does to try and fill it in is extreme and causes him to loose Buffyís trust and to hurt her.

Dracula really threw Riley for a loop. Dracula really threw Buffy for a loop. How can Buffy explain this to Riley? She tells her former Watcher that she has doubts about her powers. That is Gilesí job. How can she tell this to her boyfriend? Buffy is worried that normal Riley would rather have a normal girl friend, Buffy-Buffy, not Slayer Buffy. Buffy would rather be a normal girlfriend. If she canít accept these things, how is she expected to expect Riley will?

Because Riley loves Buffy so much, he is thrown into a world he really isnít ready to handle He makes adjustments and learns to handle it. This takes time. He is willing to do this because he loves Buffy. Everything that is thrown his way, he finds a way to deal with. Maybe getting suck jobs wasnít the best way to deal with things, but he did try to understand Buffy when she wouldnít talk about things. He needed to understand those things.

He needed Buffy to talk to him. He needed to feel like she needed him. When she was unable to express this to his satisfaction, he felt like she didnít love him. Buffy was only 19 when Riley left. She has beyond an abnormal life. It is real easy for Xander to say open up your heart. Buffyís heart is blinding, brighter than the fire. She canít handle it herself. How is she supposed to share this with others?

Buffy has been told she is wrong because she hasnít been willing to share herself with others. People let her have it when she is all pissy in ìWhen She Was Bad,î but that is nothing compared to what they say in ìDead Manís Partyî when she runs away because she canít handle what she did to Angel and feels that no one will understand. They again thrash her in ìRevelationsî for not telling them that Angel was back. Riley is just another in a long line of Scoobies that canít handle Buffy not handling things.

What Buffy voices in ìChosenî is that she doesnít have to handle things, yet, and there is nothing wrong with her if she canít at this point. She is cookie dough. None of her previous relationships worked out because they all required things she wasnít ready to give yet. Riley is a perfect example of this. He wanted from her something she just couldnít give. That doesnít make her bad. That makes her unfinished.

Mr. Right isnít Mr. Right if it isnít the right time. Buffy needs to accept who she is before she can accept anyone loving her, whether that is Angel, Spike or anyone else.

Joss's M.O. or why the scoobies need to be rescued.... -- Rochefort, 14:04:31 05/31/03 Sat

I know most of you know the pattern that Joss established with Jenny and Angel. But have you realized how FAR it carries? And how much the Scoobies must be suffering right now?

We all say "Joss loves his characters". But in "Bewitched, b, b," Giles says, "This isn't love! It's ugly banal obsession!" If Joss loved his characters, wouldn't he want them to be happy instead of grasping them in his meaty mitts for all eternity? Anyone who ever loved a scooby was 1. turned evil. 2. dispatched with.

Jenny -- Joss kept warning Jenny off. He tried to kill her in almost every episode. He turned her evil AND ugly. This worked for a while, but when she returned for some more Giles loving, Joss was like, "No! I made him! All his sexy tweed is mine!" and he rewrote history and made Jenny part of a gypsy vengence cult. When she tried to make out with Giles anyway, Joss gave up on her and snapped her neck. (secret revolutionary MOLOJ organizations sprung up around the country, and our power has been building...)

Angel -- You all know the story with Angel. Supposed to help Buffy, got involved, was o.k. as long as it was chaste, got sexy, got evil, stayed obsessed, got stabbed in the belly and his body dropped in a demon demension. When he insisted on coming back, Joss made him run around on all fours barking like a dog. But Buffy still liked him. So having tried the old stand by's of "evil" and "dead", Joss went with a romeo-like "banish-ed...banish-ed..." When Angel kept insisting on "crossing over" Joss picked up Buffy and moved her to a whole new network.

Hot science teacher -- Wanted illicit sex with Xander. So Joss turned her into a bug. Made her evil. And chopped her into little pieces.

Malcom -- Boy on internet who fell for Willow. Joss turned him into a robot. An evil robot. And smashed him into hundreds of pieces.

Inca Mummy Girl -- A sweet foreign exchange student who fell hard for Xander, so Joss tried to choke her with twinkies (bastard). That failing, he tried to pawn her off on Jonathon. When she insisted on Xander, Joss made her evil, like he had done with so many scooby lovers before her. She still tried to kiss Xander with her evil lips, and Joss got bored and turned her to dust and blew her off the canvas.

Cordelia -- Coredelia really loved Xander. One day she fell through a faulty stair case (A faulty stair case!?!?) right on top of a biiiiig metal pole that happened to be right under the faulty staircase (!?!?!?). :( Cordelia took the hint, but in the Joss verse, true love is worse than even sex. So Cordelia got banished to Los Angeles where she turned evil, had to have sex with Conner (yuck) got impregnated with an alien baby, and got left for dead. Poor Cordy.

Faith -- Had sex with Xander. So Joss made her evil, stabbed her in the belly, and threw her off a building.

Scott Hope -- Obviously liked Buffy quite a bit... but suddenly lost interest. Joss tried a new trick and made him gay. He would use this again later.

Ford -- Old highschool friend shows up and there's definitely some chemistry with Buffy. Joss makes him evil and just for good measure gives him cancer.

Joyce -- had sex with Giles.... a tumor starts to form in her brain.

Evil Willow -- Grabbed good Willow's butt. Got dusted.

Oz -- Only a couple weeks after beginning to date Willow, Oz gets turned into a viscious werewolf. When he doesn't take the hint, Joss tries to buy the popular character off with an extremely sexy she-wolf. Looks like it may work, but Oz picks Willow. Being the smart boy that he is... Oz hits the hills. As far away as possible. Tibet in fact.

When he comes back and tries for Willow again, Joss makes Willow the inexplicable cause of Oz's wolfiness. Then he makes Willow gay. Oz knows when he's beat.

Anya -- Anya was already evil, so she knew what the next step was when she fell for Xander. When she couldn't get him to run away from Joss and be with her, she left the show. When she came back, it was only a matter of time. Xander, who truly loved her, tried to save her by leaving her at the alter. Maybe the humiliation would satiate Joss's jealous possesiveness? No. Anya got turned evil. And like Angel and Faith before her, she got stabbed in the belly. Xander and Anya tried to stay apart after that. But should they have had to? Was it right or just? Long ago, Xander, Willow, and Buffy sat outside Sunnydale High and realized, together, that as long as they were under Joss's control, none of them would ever have a love life. In the end, Xander and Anya could not resist; they had sex, and they called one another sweety just hours before the apocolypse. Joss, having tried everything else on Anya, just sliced her open and left her body unceremoniously on a pile of Sunnydale rubble, unmourned.

Tara -- Tara, like Oz, got the picture, and tried to back off. Tried to live on the periphery, getting occasional "sleep on the couch" priveledges for her good behavior. But eventually she and Willow had a night of passionate sex. Joss could hardly wait till morning. :(

Does anyone really believe the magic bullet theory? That Warren was trying to shoot Buffy, and a bullet bounced off a lawn chair, a garden gnome, and a bird bath, went through the window and hit Tara? Or isn't it more likely Joss was just getting tired of covering his tracks with elaborate plots and gypsy curses and just shot Tara himself.

Willow begged to have Tara returned to her, and Joss appeared in the sky, awesome and terrible and told her that Willow was his, and would ALWAYS be his and that was THAT (this was later redubbed). Willow had finally had enough and decided to bring the whole Joss-verse crashing down. At this point, could you blame her?

Spike -- Spike, like Cordy, really loved Buffy. During season six, under Marti's watch, Spike and Buffy got away with a lot of kinky sex because kinky sex doesn't bother Marti. But Joss eventually found out (and only let Marti write one episode in the next season). Spike, like Anya, was already evil. So when Joss tried to turn Spike MORE evil by having bugs crawl up his nose, it back fired and Spike turned good. There were other pressing issues that Joss had to deal with at this point (to follow) so he just burnt Spike up and dusted him. I expect, that like Cordy, Joss will decide that this death was a little too easy on someone who truly loved his Buffy. I would not be surprised if Spike showed up in Los Angeles: evil, barking like a dog, and pregnant with an alien baby.

Us -- Finally, Joss realized that the one's who truly loved his scoobies....were us. We had fallen hard. Joss couldn't turn US evil. He couldn't stab us in our bellies, throw us off buildings, make us have sex with Conner, or bribe us with sexy werewolf girls (Note to Joss, if you're listening: You can bribe me with sexy were wolf girls). So finally... Joss picked up his four scoobies... and went home. He probably has them locked in his basement. Cold and alone, where he looks at his pretty baubles like some sort of golumn gone crazy on his power. Are we going to let this happen? Join MOLOJ now. Join the fight to bring love to the scoobies and to free them from their possesive jealous creator.

[> "evil, barking like a dog, and pregnant with an alien baby" -- KdS, 14:09:10 05/31/03 Sat

Sounds a good idea...

[> [> let's see consistent dark root up-keep in THAT condition.*LOL -- Briar, 16:40:21 06/01/03 Sun

[> sorely needed comic relief -- gds, 14:22:14 05/31/03 Sat

[> HEY!!!! You forgot Riley. Xander should be included also, since he loved Buffy -- lunasea, 14:27:23 05/31/03 Sat

[> [> Riley and inter-scooby love. -- Rochefort, 15:36:57 05/31/03 Sat

Riley was always an incredibly muted character. When Joss turned him evil to punish him for loving Buffy, the only thing evil-Riley could think of to do was go whoring. He was pretty much the same Riley... except now he whored.

Joss got frustrated and sent Riley an entire "threat package" that included long hair, a membership to the green part, and a rainbow sticker to put on his car. He was going to have to dress like "Cowboy guy" all the time and there was going to be a big make-out scene with him and Angel. Riley couldn't take it and got on the next helicopter out of town. Once out of town, he got married and joined the young republicans and tried to forget all about Sunnydale. I sent him a letter to try to get his response to my essay, and all he wrote back was "I'm straight, and I love my country. Leave me alone."

As to Xander loving Buffy, Joss wasn't all that opposed to it. Xander, as we all know, was sort of a Joss stand in on the show at times. So it would almost be like Joss got Buffy himself. It felt sort of like incest to Buffy and she wouldn't go for it, which is why she got punished with Riley in the first place. Generally, Joss was pretty o.k. with the original scoobies loving on themselves.

[> [> [> So why did we never get W/B? -- mamcu, 18:52:00 05/31/03 Sat

wuffy? billow?

[> [> [> [> Re: So why did we never get W/B? -- Rochefort, 00:45:03 06/01/03 Sun

We did. They were on the WB back then and the censors didn't let them air it. We just got some metaphorical stuff about new tensions in their friendship. Sorry you missed it. :(

[> [> [> [> [> Ah, and that explains why Willow left Angel's happiness clause in... -- KdS, 12:13:30 06/01/03 Sun

Because she hoped that, if Angel stayed "unattainable" she might still be in with a chance ;-)

[> [> [> [> Wuffow -- skeeve, 12:54:35 06/03/03 Tue

[> ROTFL! -- Alison, 14:29:03 05/31/03 Sat

[> The sordid truth is now out! -- Agent HonorH (in Black Ops gear), 17:54:40 05/31/03 Sat

Agent Skeezy Cheese has revealed to us the truth. It's time, people, time for us to take back the characters we truly love. Join us in liberating the oppressed Scoobies!

[> [> Happy to have you on board, agent H -- Rochefort, 00:40:46 06/01/03 Sun

I'm not sure if I'll turn my back on you when we're out in the field though. It will sort of be like Spike and Buffy joining forces in Bargaining II and walking down the street verrrry carefully. On the other hand, part of me thinks you'd accept any top secret mission, just for the chance to get to work in black leather and maybe see me in a tux.

[> [> [> Ooh! I get to wear black leather! -- HonorH, 18:53:37 06/01/03 Sun

Don't feel like you have to watch your back, dear--this operation is too important. Must we worry about petty things from our past like sabotage, slander, and attempted murder?

[> [> [> [> Re: Ooh! I get to wear black leather! -- Rochefort, 22:50:20 06/01/03 Sun

Actually, I think it's quite a beautiful thing that when it comes to something so important we can put all that double crossing, heart breaking, drink poisoning, and house toilet papering behind us. Vive le resistance. And enemies again on the other side.

Rochefort

[> [> After the liberation -- ponygirl, 17:16:13 06/01/03 Sun

I'm already looking into a Character Relocation/Protection Program for the Scoobies after HonorH's mission. Several fictious and semi-fictious locations have expressed interest in providing the Scoobies with a safe haven and new careers far from Joss' evil influence. Charmed's San Francisco was rejected immediately as being too tacky. Alias expressed interest in having the Scoobies join the CIA, but we must remember that they are seeking to *escape* traumatic romantic relationships and disturbing family ties. New York was a strong candidate based on their successful track record of integrating refugees from Homicide onto Law & Order, but it may be too high profile a location to escape Joss' notice. I'm leaning towards the Gilmore Girls' Star's Hollow. It has the advantages of being in a vague geographic location, and having an eccentric population who might overlook the occasional demonic visitor. What's more the highly caffeinated citizens may simply write off demonstrations of super-strength or Wiccan spell-casting as a latte-induced hallucination. Jane Espenson (our most notable liberation sympathizer) has already gone there to assess its suitability.

[> [> [> I vote for Seacouver. -- HonorH, 18:49:43 06/01/03 Sun

That's where the Highlander Immortals hang out. Nice place, though a bit damp, with a populace that easily ignores headless bodies and mysterious electrical storms on a regular basis. Giles could even do an occasional set at Joe's!

[> [> [> [> maybe we could smuggle 'em to the meet -- anom, 22:39:44 06/01/03 Sun

Then we could answer their eternal question, "Where do we go from here?" & plan how to keep them out of Joss' hands. We'd have to be careful & make sure he couldn't track them in the 3 days we'll be there. Then we could discuss their options & preferences & make plans to transfer them safely, w/protection & concealment spells & everything. Poor things, we'd treat 'em right...for the 1st time in their lives!

[> [> [> [> [> Maybe they could go to have some coffe at Central Perk -- Andrea, 18:14:37 06/02/03 Mon

[> [> [> [> Joe's? Do I know you, HonorH? -- dub ;o), 10:42:35 06/03/03 Tue

Or is there someplace called Joe's in Seattle? We have quite a popular Joe's Cappucino (sp?) Bar on Commercial Drive in Vancouver. Is that the one you were referring to?

And hey, do you know my friend Monty?

dub **wondering and wondering**

[> [> [> [> [> Actually, I'm referring to the fictional town of Seacouver. -- HonorH, 11:46:28 06/03/03 Tue

Like I said, where all the Highlander Immies hang out. Joe's Bar is owned by Joe Dawson, a Watcher, and is entirely fictional as far as I know. Haven't been to Seattle in years, I'm afraid.

[> [> [> [> [> [> LOL! Okay. -- dub ;o), 12:35:01 06/03/03 Tue

[> [> [> I knew Jane would be with us.... -- Rochefort, 22:55:14 06/01/03 Sun

Nice work in tapping her! True about Alias. I wouldn't want to have to hear Buffy say, "I was shot by.... my mother."

[> The ultimate analysis -- mamcu, 18:39:08 05/31/03 Sat

I believe you're right. At first I thought he was just puritanical, but now I see that it's obsession. He wants them all to himself. After all, why else create them?

[> [> Re: The ultimate analysis -- Rochefort, 00:43:02 06/01/03 Sun

Yes, it's like Frankenstein, but the opposite. We've only now got to think of how to pry them from his chubby fingers. Spike may have released Buffy from the prison of Sunnydale, but it's up to us to release her from the mind of Joss.

[> [> [> Yeah and you should see Joss' wife's pre-nup. -- Dandy, 10:21:57 06/01/03 Sun

[> [> [> [> Here it is...rescued from the archiving-crazy Voynak demon -- dub ;o), 20:32:06 06/02/03 Mon

Date Posted: 00:10:32 06/02/03 Mon
Author: Rochefort
Subject: MOLOJ has obtained a portion of Joss's wife's prenup....

Some of our spies obtained this. Maybe it will help the resistance. It's only part of the document, so let me know if you find more.

Prenuptual Agreement of Mrs. Whedon

If I ever say "I love you" and you respond, "Love you, too. I'll call you," do not expect it to take me the rest of the year to stake you.

If I ever say "I love you" and you respond in falsetto "This isn't real...but I just wanna feel," you will feel me kick you in the crotch.

In the event that the marriage shall end, we shall each receive 50% of the assets. Unless you take your 50% to Los Angeles and hook up with some ditz we knew in highschool. Then I get all of it.

If I ever find a BOT in our house, even a bot of ME, and you tell me it was just to play checkers with, I'll put marzipan in YOUR pie-plate, buster.

If you ever make me run around on a field screaming "I love you" while you're leaving in a helicopter going "la la la la I can't hear you," I get everything!

Penises that have desieses from shumash tribes makes a cute line, but if it happens, you aren't getting any.

I do not know how to become a vengence demon. Leave me at the alter though, and I'll find a way.

****

But Joss also made her sign these... They get kind of creepy at the end; you can really tell he's losing it.

If you ever leave me you have to say: "Take a good look at this butt cause it's the last time you'll see it. Except when it's me walking away from you, and even then, I'll probably walk backwards" or I get everything.

Once a month you have to say "It's Joss. And he's wearing the coat."

If I ever get bored and say "Tonight we're having dinner with no dialogue" or "Tonight we're having MUSICAL sex" you have to go with it.

If I ever become a fish person, you have to stay with me and provide bath tub toys.

Ditto if I become a rat. I want those little tubes set up in a maze to run around in.

If no one wants to buy Fire Fly, you have to let me act out every damn episode in the living room. And clap.

Do not turn out to be a praying mantis who bites my head off during sex. I don't think you are, honey. But just in case.

Sometimes stare intently at your I-Mac and if you ever want me to go somewhere I don't want to go all you have to do is say "This is my determined face. You've seen it before. You know what it means" and I'll be putty in your hands.

"I do hereby understand that if Joss ever fails in sex that it is because of the chip."

Once in a while put on a tight sweater and prowl around the house going "ooooh, I'm going to stake you..."

Life is unpredictable. I gaurantee the major players in our mariage will not die, but if something happens to say, your mother in-law... well that's how it goes. Of course, if it didn't make us sad, I wouldn't be doing my job.

Do not love the scoobies in the basement! They must remain unloved. And in the basement! THEY ARE MINE! ALL MINE!

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Replies:
He's diabolical! Where do I sign up for MOLOJ? (NT) -- dub ;o), 08:41:13 06/02/03 Mon

[> [> [> [> [> Thanks for doing that!!! :) -- Rochefort, 03:29:22 06/03/03 Tue

As to your question: You're totally in MOLOJ for this re-post. I'm the treaseurur. so i say so.

[> [> [> [> [> [> You're welcome. And Yay!! I'm a member!! -- dub ;o), 08:50:02 06/03/03 Tue

[> [> [> We could make robots for him and take the real ones... -- mamcu, 13:02:06 06/01/03 Sun

[> [> [> [> Have you seen what he does to robots? The man has no mercy! -- HonorH, 16:34:26 06/01/03 Sun

[> That was so good I would almost suspect Joss of writing it himself! -- DickBD, 13:47:49 06/01/03 Sun

But he wouldn't do that, would he? Would you, Joss?

[> [> Well... I'm actually quite mad. -- Joss (who is really Rochefort), 23:08:21 06/01/03 Sun

Yes yes, you got me. I was sitting there in my living room, bored with no Buffy to write (FOR THE LOVE OF GOD! SOMEONE PUT FIRE FLY BACK ON! Put it on Al-Jazeer! I don't care!) and I thought... why not insight a rebellion against myself!? Those sly little fans will NEVER see that coming. heh heh ooooh. Boy I love to keep you folks guessing! And you know.... you'll never take'em alive. They're mine, and they'll always be mine. You folks try anything and I'll...write Buffy another sibling or make her seriously fall for Richard Simmons then turn him evil and give him a spin off! So back off! You're all the best. grr argh.

Jossy

[> Hehe....I think you might be right -- pellenaka, 14:56:35 06/01/03 Sun

[> Brilliant! Dawn? -- msGiles, 05:31:42 06/02/03 Mon

Dawn was plucked out of nowhere and stuck in there as Buffy's annoying sister/quasi-offspring to make sure she was too busy parenting to hook up with any eligible men, and couldn't boink Spike at home (oh, and by the way remember Richard, he had a go, Anya and Xander were trying to help get Buffy out of there, but he got impaled on a sword almost immediately, and sensibly gave up)

[> [> Yep, and look what happens to boys who try to make time with Dawn. -- HonorH, 06:55:02 06/02/03 Mon

The one kid who actually gets to kiss her ends up being unceremoniously turned into a vampire and dusted. RJ gets robbed by Xander and Spike and loses his cool (literally). All the other boys very sensibly leave town. Methinks Joss has developed a thing for Dawnie, too--that or he wants to keep her with Buffy as a distraction from male types.

[> [> [> So are you saying... -- LonesomeSundown, 09:55:49 06/02/03 Mon

... FinnMacCool better watch out at OBAFU? Yeah, I know Joss is not in charge, but maybe it is all a Josspiracy. Think about it - get all the Buffy obsessed people together in one place, then let loose the collected nasties of the Buffyverse upon them. Flee, OBAFUers, flee, while while you still have limbs with which to flee! Miss H will turn into a giant snake at graduation! Or - shudder - into Honorificus!

[> The heinous pattern continues on AtS! (Spoilers through "Home") -- HonorH, 07:20:35 06/02/03 Mon

I just realized that Joss has continued this devastating pattern with "Angel". Somewhere along the way, he fell into obsession with his new creations, and now they're doomed to be smacked around by the Jossian hand of fate. Just look at the evidence:

First, Doyle falls for Cordelia. He was fine as long as he was just Angel's buddy with a crush on Cordy, but the minute she started returning his feelings, bam! Killed by an Evil Light. Joss replaced him with Wesley, who, based on earlier lack-of-kissing-chemistry, probably wouldn't be a threat. It was a good gamble.

Unfortunately for Cordy, she didn't stop her search for True Love there. She goes out with a guy and gets all bouncy with him, and next thing you know, she's knocked up with demon babies. Angel beats up her date. It was all a warning from Joss that she wasn't to be trying any of this stuff, since she's HIS, all his. They all understand and stay away from romance for the rest of the season.

In season 2, however, things start to go awry again. Darla returns and makes a play for Angel, and he, having one serious history with her, doesn't run nearly as fast as he should. He ends up sleeping with her. Of course, once he's done so, it's abundantly clear that Joss sent him a nightmare, because he immediately warns Darla off with a stake. No, the other kind, gutterbrain! Darla slinks off, hoping to avoid more of the Wrath of Joss, poor dear.

Meanwhile, Wesley's gotten himself a girlfriend. That can't go well, and doesn't. Uh-oh. Fortunately for Virginia, she had the brains to know when she was beaten and got out while the getting was good.

Then there's the matter of Lindsey. He'd been seriously into Darla, which was only a cover for him being seriously into Angel. So what does Joss do? Gives him an Evil Hand. Lindsey, sick of this crap, shoots up the W&H boardroom and heads for the hills.

The next boyfriend Cordy gets is Groo. Joss handles this threat with the simple expedient of ejecting her from his dimension. Neat, simple, and almost painless.

But now, of course, there's Fred to deal with. It was okay as long as she was crushing on Angel, who wouldn't return her feelings. The second she starts in with Wesley, though, Joss turns Wesley into Jack Nicholson from "The Shining" to warn her off. Fred retreats as Wesley has Angst. Unfortunately, for all her brains, Fred can't figure out she's been beaten. She goes for Gunn, and a relationship begins. It goes well--or at least seems to.

At this point, of course, Angel and Cordy are starting to dance around each other. So Joss knocks Darla up. Oh, you didn't seriously believe *Angel* did that, did you? Like a sap, Angel believes the kid is his, and he and Darla start bonding again. Uh-oh. Darla's then forced to kill herself.

Unfortunately, with this new child in hand, things start going well between Angel and Cordy again. Nope, can't have that. Joss panics. He sends Groo back in an attempt to break them up, which works, but he's also had the brain-wave to send in Holtz to get rid of the kid. Which also works. The complications keep Angel and Cordy apart for a while, but inevitably, they start moving together again. So Joss takes drastic action. He sinks Angel into the sea and yanks Cordy out of the dimension. By the time they come back, it's no on the romance, and when they try again, Cordy goes evil.

Meanwhile, Wesley starts sleeping with Lilah, and Gunn and Fred are still at it. Joss deftly tosses a complication into the Gunn/Fred romance. Wesley recognizes the pattern and tries to warn Lilah off. She's just not the sort of woman to give up, though, so Joss takes the simple expedient of letting Evil!Cordy kill her. Then Joss brings back Angelus, who finishes off the Fred/Gunn/Wesley triangle with a few well-chosen words.

As we all know, of course, Connor has by this time gotten a serious jones for Cordy. Being evil, she goes with it. Poor kid never has a chance. He stops world peace, goes insane, and gets killed as Joss retcons the whole thing, figuring it was a mistake.

The really scary thing? He's not finished with these people yet. We must free them before he can do any more harm to them.

[> [> But on Firefly...Joss lives out his fantasies? (spoilers for all aired eps) -- mamcu, 08:03:27 06/02/03 Mon

Inara, the most gorgeous of all, has LOTS of good sex--at least, the best ever for most of her clients. and she is never punished for this.

Wash and Zoe are actually happily married and seen to go off with lust in their eyes, even seen in bed together with no evil consequences.

Kaylee and Simon get it on in a very lustful scene, and remain unslaughtered or otherwise incapacitated.

Only Mal, Jayne, Book, and River are left out, and this was only part of one season.

BUT:

Mal and Inara didn't really get together, although there was a lot to encourage us shippers on that front. So maybe there would have been gore galore if they'd ever kissed when both were conscious.

It was only part of one season. Who knows what evil punishments could have awaited the happy couples? Makes me afraid to see those last episodes...

[> [> [> Yeah, but they got CANCEL-LED. Banish-ed! Hmmmm. Startin to see Joss point here -- Dandy, 15:24:20 06/02/03 Mon

[> But really we are to blame, or at least you are -- lunasea, 09:49:35 06/02/03 Mon

Joss only gives us what we need to see. If we needed to see stable happy relationships, then he would give them to us. People need to see the characters in pain and relationships fail. It makes their shallow existences not so lonely.

The Scoobies need to be rescued from the audience, which Joss has mercifully done. Now that Buffy is no longer on parade every week, she is allowed to actually smile. I have heard that she still hasn't stopped smiling, even though her cheeks are begining to hurt. She says the pain feels good. She didn't even know those muscles still worked and was beginning to worry about atrophe. Buffy said she wanted to see the world that she has saved so many times and took off, this time in a good way.

Willow and Kennedy have shacked up and decided to open a cyber cafe in Salem. Giles visited them on his way back to England and met the cutest little Wicce who doesn't need a tongue ring to excite her partner. Giles has since thought that England is highly overrated and New England is close enough.

Someone had to watch Dawn, so Xander volunteered for the job. He is working at the "Fabulous Ladies Nightclub" which he actually likes and the ladies really find the eye patch sexy. Andrew does stand up there. Xander and he live together, but not like that. Dawn likes Oxnard and has a whole bunch of friends, all of whom have pulses. She keeps a mirror with her and checks to see if someone has a reflection before she talks to them, but so far so good. She has also decided that kissing someone who is warm blooded is the only way to go.

Not only are all the Scoobies happy, but they aren't fused to each other any more. They talk on the phone, but right now they are just sick of each other and want their space. They plan to get together for Thanksgiving, possibly in LA.

[> [> I heard Buffy ate a whole cheesecake all by herself. It was at a little cafe in Greenwich Village. -- Dandy, 15:28:03 06/02/03 Mon

[> The Rescue (Part I) -- cjl, 11:54:03 06/02/03 Mon

[Night. A well-fortified private residence/compound, a la Skywalker Ranch, somewhere in the outskirts of Los Angeles. A quartet of hooded, black-clad figures hits the ground running after leaping from the perimeter fence, and move in lockstep toward the main building, taking out security cameras with hand-held laser fire. Reaching a side door, one of the quartet punches in a security code; they all listen for the sound of an enormous metal bolt sliding back, then quickly file into the building, practically flying down the steps down to the basement. They turn a corner. . .and nearly collide with Riley Finn, standing like a statue in front of the 14-inch thick steel door separating the commandos from their target.

RILEY: Far enough, guys.

[Sam Finn materializes behind the commandos, weapon raised.]

SAM: Not bad. How'd you get past the gate?

HOODED FIGURE #1: You know this isn't right.

RILEY: Just following orders, ma'am.

HF #2: Spoken like a true SS officer.

RILEY: Give me a break. [Riley grabs a walkie-talkie from his belt, and checks in with the rest of his security team.] Right....Right. Stay on it. You've got 20 square miles of woods out there. Bring Johnson, Kilpatrick, and Williamson. Check in every five minutes.

SAM: Under control?

RILEY: Six more around the perimeter. B Section's on it. [To commandos] Sorry, guys--you really should have planned this out a little better. [Riley pulls out his pistol.] Time to wrap it up.

[Riley fires, and a tranquilizer dart hits Sam in the stomach. She stares at him with an expression of pure astonishment, then crumbles to the ground.]

HF #4: What?!

HF #2: How do you think we got the codes?

HF #4: Uh--when were you going to tell us Riley was our inside man?

HF #2: Need to know basis.

[Riley punches in the security code for the steel door.]

HF #4: Riley--not that I'm complaining--but why are you helping us? I mean, isn't Joss paying you about a billion dollars to head up security?

RILEY: Hey, I hated "As You Were" as much as anybody. Do you think I've enjoyed spending the last two years as a slave to an institution I no longer respect?

HF #4: The hot wife must've helped.

RILEY [looks fondly at Sam's unconscious body]: Well, yeah. Kinda takes the edge off.

[Again, the sound of an enormous steel bolt sliding back. Riley pushes the door open. HF#2 steps in front to address the group.]

HF #2: Ladies and gentlemen--this is a glorious day for the assembled membership of the Republic of MOLOJ! It is the culmination of months of effort, in which...

HF #1 (to Riley): Any more tranquilizer darts?

HF #2 (deflated): Oh, all right. Get in there. [The commandos race through the open door.] Riley--maybe you should hang back for a while. Until we explain things. [Riley nods.]

[The commandos break into what seems to be a rec room for the prisoners. WILLOW and XANDER are lying asleep in bed, dressed in adult-sized footie pajamas. BUFFY is sitting on a loveseat, clutching Mr. Gordo, watching a ten-year-old tape of All My Children with a glazed expression in her eyes. As the commandos look on in horror, GILES slumps forward, face first, into a well-worn copy of the Necronomicon.]

HF #3: Dear God.

[HF #2 tears off his hood, reveals himself as ROCHEFORT. He races over to Giles, gently lifts him off the table.]

ROCHEFORT: They've been drugged. [To Giles] Don't worry, my friend. I have kept the bright light of your beloved Jenny alive for lo, these many years. Your day of vengeance is at hand.

HF #3: My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die.

ROCHEFORT: Very funny. [To HF #1] HonorH, how's Buffy? [HonorH removes her hood, and checks out the Slayer. Buffy doesn't even look up.]

HONOR H: She'll be OK. Shoes are good, blouse is still in style, jeans--well, I don't know what she was thinking there--but give me about twenty minutes at a local mall and she'll be back to normal.

BUFFY (a glimmer of recognition): "M-mall?"

HONOR H (practically in tears): That's right, Buffy.

[HF #4 removes his hood, reveals himself as CJL. He tries shaking Xander awake.]

CJL: Xander....Xander! [Xander, groggy, reaches up and grabs CJL by the shoulder, pulls him down and whispers in his ear.] We will. We'll get them out of here. All of them. I promise. [Xander whispers again] It rocked. They're setting up Dark Phoenix for the third movie. [Xander smiles, and slips back into unconsciousness.]

ROCHEFORT: We're going to have to move fast. We've got about a five minute window. [To HF #3] ponygirl? [HF #3 tears off her hood, revealing ponygirl. ponygirl whips out her walkie-talkie.]

PONYGIRL: This is pg to punfu, pg to punfu. Do you read, punfu?

ANOM (over the receiver): Clear as Jeffrey Bell.

PONYGIRL: Are we set up at the halfway house?

ANOM: All ready. How's it looking out there?

PONYGIRL: Bad. They're in worse shape than we thought. We've gotta get 'em out of here before Joss and the Frog Network's muscle comes in.

WILLOW (tossing in her sleep): Nooooo....frogs! Frogs!

CJL: Well, that explains a lot...

ROCHEFORT: We don't have time for this! Let's get these people ambulatory, otherwise we're never going to make it!

JOSS (at the doorway): You're not going to make it, anyway.

END PART I

Who wants to do Part II?

[> [> LOL!! That was great! -- ponygirl, 12:27:16 06/02/03 Mon

[> [> don't leave me hanging -what happens next? -- Alison (shuddering at the thought of a vengeful Joss), 12:57:51 06/02/03 Mon

[> [> ROTFLOL!!! -- HonorH the Commando, 14:38:25 06/02/03 Mon

I'm lovin' this, cjl! Go, fashionista me! Can hardly wait to see what you do for the second part.

[> [> (Chants) Part II ! Part II ! (C'mon, don't make us beg.....ok, ok so we'll beg) -- Dandy, 15:34:28 06/02/03 Mon

[> [> Truly MOLOJ's finest hour. -- Rochefort, 17:39:51 06/02/03 Mon

The feety pajamas were damn brilliant. It was all better than I imagined it.

[> [> The Rescue, Part II, "Sexy Tweed" -- Rochefort, 18:18:51 06/02/03 Mon

[At the doorway stands the master himself, Joss Whedon. He is dressed in t-shirt and jeans, and slouched against the door frame Spike-style. He looks relaxed. The MOLOJ members stand stunned in front of the man they have admired for so long and is now their enemy. Rochefort pulls out his tranquilizer.]

Rochefort: You can't stop us, Joss. They aren't yours. Not anymore.

Joss: That so?

[CJL has moved to attack Joss. Joss does a little Doc move, and steals CJL's pen. Then he turns to face them.]

Joss: You see, my lovely fans, you are like Giles to my Buffy. I write. You watch.

[suddenly one of the basement windows shatters! Glass flies out and Joss and everyone are stunned and startled. When the dust clears, it is Rob]

Rob: (shaking pom-poms) Buffy! Goooooo BUFFY!

Riley: Rob, get back to your post!

Rob: Yay Buffy! Buffy DO something!

Joss: (chuckling) Buffy, do something. The Macarena perhaps.

[Buffy begins to do the Macarana. Her face blank]

Honor H: Oh god! Stop it! Stop making her do that! It's like some sort of frozen diet food comercial! It's like ten years old! And it wasn't even cool THEN!

Joss: Xander, Giles, she needs back up.

[Xander and Giles stand up and join her in the Macarena]

Ponygirl: Hey Joss. (close up on Ponygirl) All the girls that could be slayers... WILL be slayers. You said it yourself.

[Ponygirl does a cartwheel over to Joss and ends it by kicking him the head. Joss pushes Ponygrl into a wall, but Ponygirl fights back. Things are looking equal; no fighter gaining the advantage]

Ponygirl: Honor H! You could be a Slayer, too! Help!

[Honor H has fallen silent. She is watching Giles do the Macarena]

Rob: Honor H! Help her! Go Honor H! (shaking pom-poms)

Honor H: He's so beautiful. (she moves to touch his arm, running it along the tweed.)

Rochefort: I knew she'd be a liability.

CJL: It's not her fault... she's... she's falling for Giles.

Xander and Willow look up from where they lay in feety pajamas, wide eyed and frightened.

[Giles suddenly shakes himself awake, he looks frightened as well, telling Honor H with his eyes to stop, warding her off... but it is too late. Honor H takes him in her arms, dips him, and kisses him passionately. His glasses go crooked on his face. There is a flash of light and the ground shakes... when the MOLOJ members and Scoobies look again... Honor H is no more. Ponygirl has let her gaurd down and is thrown into some boxes by Joss, who chuckles, tapping his pen on his hand.]

Honorificus: ooooh, Giles baby.

Giles: (straightening his glasses) Help?

End Act II. Next?

[> [> [> LMAO!! -- s'kat, 18:57:38 06/02/03 Mon

[> [> [> Damn I want those feety pyjamas, Are they the sushi ones? I am so jealous right now. -- Dandy who wants to be drowning in pj footwear., 19:19:48 06/02/03 Mon

[> [> [> The Rescue, Part III, "Finally something goes right" -- ponygirl, 19:55:40 06/02/03 Mon

[Smoke fills the basement in a cool '80's video kind of way. Rochefort and cjl stagger back against the basement wall, coughing.]

CJL: We've got to fall back! Cut our losses and run!

Rochefort: No dammit! We can still salvage the mission. Grab a Scoobie. We'll try and come back for the rest.

[Rob joins them, frantically waving his pom poms in an attempt to clear the air]

Rob: How are we supposed to choose? I love them all!

[The smoke clears as a majestic figure glides forward, if by gliding you mean earth-staggering steps. Honorificus sweeps aside the smoke with one gesture of her well-manicured hand, a second holds Giles up off the ground in a gentle yet firm grip, the third plucks at an errant blood larvae that threatens to fall from her gown]

Honorificus: So Giles honey, why don't we ditch these losers and head back to my crypt? I've got nachos, and the new issue of W.

Giles: um, er.

[Joss steps forward]

Joss: Okay, you aren't one of my demons (though you could possibly represent my deep-seated fear of accessorizing), but you could help me out of my little situation here. Let's talk deal. Maybe something along the lines of consulting producer?

[Cjl sneaks over to the pile of boxes where ponygirl is sitting up groggily]

Ponygirl: You guys were going to leave me! I heard you!

CJL: Nah, you must of heard wrong, what with the unconsciousness and all.

Rochefort: Over here! Hurry!

[Rochefort and Rob are crouched over the remaining Scoobies, who are huddled wide-eyed and fearful against a wall]

Rochefort: We've got to get them out here! If Honorificus takes that deal...

[Honorificus seems to be considering Joss' offer. His smile grows wider as he twirls his pen]

Joss: And there's plenty of room for growth -- not that you need to get any larger -- there are a number of ideas I'm working on. Maybe something with Faith or one of the Potentials.

Honorificus: Potentials?

Joss: I think Kennedy or that other one that I didn't kill--

Honorificus: You think I could just forget the crimes you've inflicted on all of us? The outfits those girls wore? Rona's overalls? Chloe's shirt? You don't get to walk away from that Whedon!

[Honorificus drops Giles with a thud. She reaches all of her hands for Joss' throat]

Honorifics: Vi's hat!!

[ Rochefort makes a dash for Giles. Rob and cjl are pushing Willow and Xander towards the basement window. Rob is whispering encouragements to Willow.]

Rob: You know Kennedy wasn't that bad. I was really starting to like her.

[Ponygirl kneels beside Buffy]

Ponygirl: It's going to be okay. We'll have you out of here in no time. Just one thing, when you said you loved Spike you meant it, right?

Rochefort: Ponygirl!

[He's dragging Giles towards the others]

Rochefort: The mission?

Ponygirl: Sorry, jeez. [to Buffy] We'll chat in the van.

[Rob looks back at Honorificus and Joss locked in their death struggle]

Rob: Aren't we going to do something? They'll kill each other!

CJL: And that's a bad thing?

Rob: If Honorificus dies then so does HonorH!

CJL: Wait, are you saying there's a connection between HonorH and Honorificus?

Rochefort: I don't Honorificus is in any trouble.

[Honorificus is busily choking the life out of Joss.]

Honorificus: Anya's hair!!

Joss: W-w-w-

Honorificus: What?

Joss: W-w- Wood!

[She loosens her grip just a fraction.]

Honorificus:What about Principal Wood?

Joss: I-I have him in another part of the building. I was planning to kill him horribly for expressing a brief possible romantic interest in Buffy. But maybe...

Honorificus: Yes?

Joss: I could take you to him.

[ Honorificus sets Joss down and dusts him off.]

Honorificus: I think we have a deal.

[SMiling they turn back towards the basement]

Honorificus: Hey guys? Change of plan. I'll be killing you and letting Joss have the Scoobies. Uh guys?

[All that they see is the empty basement and the open basement window]

[Outside on the lawn, the MOLOJ try to lead the disoriented Scoobies away from the building]

Rochefort: Finally something goes right! Now where's that van?

[There's a loud burst of static. Anom's voice, panicked and possibly female, comes through the walkie talkie]

Anom: Something's gone wrong!

CJL: [to Rochefort] Do I even have to mention that this is your fault?

On to Part IV! Who's up for it?

[> [> [> [> "And that's a bad thing?" LOL! -- cjl, 20:10:24 06/02/03 Mon

But honestly, pg, I'd never leave you behind, no matter how dire the circumstances.

Really.

[> [> [> [> [> Aww! ;) -- ponygirl, blushing, 20:20:56 06/02/03 Mon

[> [> [> [> The Rescue, Part IV, "Joss's Comeuppance" -- Rhysdux, 21:44:43 06/02/03 Mon

ROCHEFORT: Itís not my fault, cjl, whatever you sayó

JOSSís voice booms all around them.

JOSS: Riley, take these people prisoner.

(RILEY immediately disarms all the MOLOJ membersóeven Slayer Ponygirl.)

PONYGIRL: Riley! How can you do this--and to US?

RILEY (wretchedly): Iím sorry. I donít want to betray you. Itís just that itís my duty to capture anyone who enters this compound, and Joss always wrote me as being passionately devoted to duty. Thereís nothing I can do.

RILEY escorts them back to the compound. Forrest is there already, guarding a furious ANOM.

HONORIFICUS doesnít seem to notice, as she is leering evilly yet happily at WOOD. WOOD regards her with a mixture of sexual attraction and alarm. This is not surprising, as HONORIFICUSís demonic divinity garb has been transformed into soft, supple, sensual black leather. She looks like the Demon Goddess Dominatrix Empress of Hell and all surrounding territories. JOSS seems to be trying to keep more than an armís length away from her.

HONORIFICUS (backing WOOD into a corner): Oh, Wood, youíre going to learn so much more about true evil than you ever dreamed possible. The darkness, the agony, how to manipulate enemies and influence allies, the pungent smell of roasting fleshÖ

ROCHEFORT: Honorificus, the mission?

HONORIFICUS (grabbing Wood with all of her hands): Yeah, yeah. As soon as I get what I want.

(No one has noticed JOSS removing CJLís pen from his pocket, or the fact that JOSS is now leaning against a wall in the compound which has been painted white.

JOSS (hastily scribbling something on the wallpaper near the door): You just donít get it, do you? Any of you! **Iím** the writer! I have the power!

HONORIFICUS screams a horrible ululating wail and falls to her knees. She seems to be in unbearable pain, which may have been partially caused by the retconning of her sexy, stylish black leather outfit into a fluffy pink wool sweater, a lime green polyester tank top, a khaki maxi skirt, argyle socks of powder blue and passion purple, and scuffed brown and white saddle shoes.)

HONORIFICUS: NOOOOOOOOOO!

CJL (glaring at JOSS): What did you DO to her?!

JOSS (snickering): Buffy, tell them.

BUFFY (in a patient voice): She has a sooooooul now.

(CJL, ROCHEFORT and PONYGIRL look appalled, though whether by the thought of HONORIFICUS with a soul or HONORIFICUS in such a ghastly outfit isnít clear. ROB waves his pom-poms in HONORIFICUSís face in an obvious attempt to destroy the soul with the perfect happiness caused by thoughts of purest evil. ANOM looks around for a way to escape.)

JOSS (smirks): Iíll have to create a new prison for you lot. But donít worry-óIíll make sure that all of you experience exactly what my pets have been going through for years. In fact, maybe itís time I gave you a sample just what life is going to be like for you from now on. Oh, Marti?

(MARTI appears in a puff of pink smoke beside JOSS.

MARTI (typing on a laptop as she speaks): All of you are totally helpless, unable to move. You are depressed, lost in a maze of bad relationships that make you dirty, degraded and inhuman. You are all addicted to lesbian-sex-and-or-drugs in the form of magic. And not one of you has ever, ever been happy.

(The MOLOJ group fights MARTIís words furiously, but minute by minute the twisted storylines seem to be coming true. The harder they fight, the more futile it becomes.)

WILLOW (sitting on the edge of the bed, looking despondent): We all fought it at firstÖthen we realized there was absolutely nothing we could do. Weíre helplessÖforever. Even me. I canít cast a single spell unless Joss or Marti will it. (sobs)

JOSS (gloating): And there is NOTHING you can do about it.

VOICE (offstage): Oh no?

(JOSSís pen disintegrates. So does MARTIís laptop. The twisted storylinesóand HONORIFICUSís hideous outfitóvanish as RHYSDUX, accompanied by hundreds of thousands of people, mostly female stroll through the door. The room shouldnít be able to hold these many people, but in some dimensionally transcendental way, it manages to expand.)

ANOM: Rhysdux, watch out! Joss is dangerous.

RHYSDUX doesnít spare a glance in JOSSís or MARTIís direction. Instead, she addresses the vast hordes before her.

RHYSDUX: Ladies and gentlemen, Iíd like you to meet Joss Whedon and Marti Noxon. Theyíre going to be your characters for today.

JOSS and MARTI: What?!

RHYSDUX (continuing, with a very evil gleam in her eye): Now remember, this is a no-holdsí-barred exercise. You can use any ëship, any setting, any time that you want. The only requirement is that you use these two in your stories somewhere. BeginningÖnow. Pencils, pens, laptopsóGO!

The hordes begin scribbling. JOSS begins to scream as, within the space of three seconds, he is alternately teleported to the Quantum Leap universe with the Buffybot, mind-switched with Connor Angel, and murdered by the Immortal Kronos. MARTI screams and tries to flee, but is immediately ambushed by Xena, Gabrielle, the First Slayer, Sailor Moon and the Powerpuff Girls for perpetuating stereotypes about women and rape on the show.

RHYSDUX (over the noise of the melee and mayhem): Come on. (motions the MOLOJ and the Buffy characters toward the door.)

GILES (looking sternly at RHYSDUX): We canít go out there. Weíd be annihilated. Listen.

GILES is right--hideous screaming can be heard from outside. Everyone looks troubled, with the exception of HONORIFICUS, who looks delighted at the sounds of pain and misery.

XANDER: Not really sounding harmless out there.

RHYSDUX (chuckles): Really not. Thatís our defensive weapon. Not even Joss has any defenses that can withstand this.

RHYSDUX leads them out the door. Outside, battalions of incredibly beautiful and unbelievably strong young women, all with oddly colored hair and eyes, and all with nametags bearing names like ìSariad,î ìKymbyrleeî or ìAraminta,î are fighting Jossís army. Despite the fact that the soldiers keep killing them, the girls continue to fight, pausing only to die in improbable yet noble ways. About half of them are coming back from the dead as vampires who are immune to the cross and the stake or as Immortals.

PONYGIRL (whispering): Mary SueÖ

RHYSDUX: Yep. Miss Cam of Middle-Earthís fanfic university explained to the Mary Sues that they had a duty and a responsibility to go out there and fight, maybe die, for the freedom of their favorite characters. (shrugs) Like they were going to say no. I mean, this is what they were born for, in a way.

(The MOLOJ group and the Scoobies reach the escape vans. GYRUS and FINN MACCOOL are in one, LITTLEBIT and FIDHLE in a second, CACTUSWATCHER and MSGILES in a third, and RANDOM, CARO and VAMPRILEY in the fourth. The Scoobies are escorted to the various vans. CJL pauses, turning to RHYSDUX.)

CJL: Where did you find all those people who were writing tales about Joss and Marti?

RHYSDUX: Oh, Godawful Fan Fiction, BadBuffyFic, Official Buffy Angel Fanfiction UniversityÖ.

ANOM (also pausing): You sicced writers of bad fanfic on them? Thatís absolutelyÖ

RHYSDUX (grinning): I know.

RANDOM (motioning frantically): Get in the vans NOW!!

(The MOLOJ gang and the Scooby Gang hasten into the vans, close the doors, and drive down the private road leading to the compound.)

POV: INSIDE OF VAN

BUFFY: So, where are you taking us?

HONORIFICUS: We were thinking SeacouverÖ

End of Part IV! Who wants to do Part V?

[> [> [> [> [> Oh, dear. Competing parts. -- HonorH, 21:58:53 06/02/03 Mon

Can anybody retcon this? Maybe one of those badfic writers?

[> [> [> [> [> [> If retconned.... I get a little brother. (Kick the baby!) -- Rochefort, 23:32:53 06/02/03 Mon

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Both Part IV's are good! How do we fix it? Some combination? -- Rochefort, 00:09:18 06/03/03 Tue

I tried to ret-con them, but my post got really really confusing. It had J-Bone in it and some really good lines from Andrew and Jonathon, plus it had Agent Cooper from Twin Peaks. But it couldn't be saved and dissolved into mush.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> "Choose your own adventure" rip-off? -- Caira, 00:20:03 06/03/03 Tue

[> [> [> [> [> LMAO!!! -- Caroline, 11:45:22 06/03/03 Tue

but putting me with Random and VampRiley? I'll never be able to get a word in edgeways with all the insults being hurled around between those two!!!

[> [> [> [> The Rescue, Part IV: "Crud Happens" -- HonorH, 21:53:50 06/02/03 Mon

(The escaping MOLOJ members wait while Rochefort tries to raise anom on his walkie-talkie. The Scoobies are starting to wake up.)

WILLOW: Monkeys got clothes . . .

CJL: I think they're starting to come out of it. Xander? You in there, man?

XANDER: Anya, sweetie, roll over. Gotta make room for Andrew.

(The MOLOJ stand around blinking, hoping they heard wrong.)

ROCHEFORT: Anom, you copy?

(Finally the static breaks. The voice that comes through isn't anom's. It's definitely female, and most definitely pissed off.)

SAM: Mind if I have a chat with my husband?

RILEY: Oh, @#%^.

PONYGIRL (to Rob): Did you know he could swear like that?

ROB: Would never have guessed.

(Reluctantly, Riley takes the walkie-talkie. Meanwhile, back in the mansion, Joss considers his new ally nervously.)

JOSS: How about a guest spot on Angel? I'm sure we could swing something.

HONORIFICUS: Depends. What would I be wearing? (She suddenly gasps, all of her hands going to her breast or her head.) Oh, for the love of Versace, not now, not--

(Too late. Her figure shifts and dwindles down to that of HonorH.)

HONORH: --now. Uh-oh. (Spots Joss, smiles, feigns clueless.) Have I been behaving badly?

JOSS: You have no idea. (Looms threateningly over her)

(HonorH is forced to think quickly, which is never a good idea with her. She blurts out the first thing that comes to mind, which is:)

HONORH: I have swimmer's ear!

JOSS (stopping, puzzled): Eh?

HONORH: Can't believe that worked. 'Bye! (Turns and bolts. Joss goes running after her through the mansion.)

(Meanwhile, back with MOLOJ and the Scoobies:)

RILEY: Sweetie, you're taking this far too personally. I mean, who stun-gunned me in Guatemala after I got infected by that horny demon?

ROCHEFORT: For the love of all that's unholy, Finn, just promise her roses, tell her her butt looks great in that outfit, and ask her to let anom go! We're working on a schedule here.

RILEY: Listen, Sammy, I know I should've told you, but you knew what Joss was doing was wrong just as much as I did. Let us get the Scoobies out and we can . . . (looks nervously at Rochefort, covers his mouth and the receiver with one hand, and mumbles something. After a moment, he grins and gives Rochefort the thumbs-up.) Love you too, baby. See you in sixty. (switches the walkie-talkie off) We got it. Sam's in.

ROB (fretting): But how are we going to rescue HonorH and whoever else Joss has in there? He could be keeping the entire "Firefly" cast.

PONYGIRL (faintly): You know what, boys? I'm not sure that's what we should be worrying about right now.

(She points. The guys whirl as one to behold the approaching Turok-Han army.)

LEAD TUROK: Grr. Argh.

To be continued, if you people can see a way out of this mess . . .

[> [> [> [> Part III is hilarious. PLUS it has great plot movement and character consistency -- Rochefort, 22:28:42 06/02/03 Mon

[> [> [> [> [> and so many typos!! (Must proofread, dammit) -- ponygirl, who drank 2 rum & Cokes before she wrote it, 06:44:46 06/03/03 Tue

[> [> [> Eek! Oh, no! LMAO! -- HonorH (just dyin' here), 21:06:59 06/02/03 Mon

[> [> this is great! & i'm in it! -- anom, 19:33:41 06/02/03 Mon

I even have a pun in my dialogue! Are you on the OBAFU faculty yet, cjl? 'Cause you oughta be. See, class? This is how to do fanfic. Know your individual characters & their individual interests--like HonorH's w/the clothes or Xander's w/the X-Men ref.--& capabilities--like mine w/the puns ("do you read, punfu?"--heehee!). Unfortunately, my capabilities don't include writing great stuff like this, so I won't be contributing to this...except as a character! Halfway house, eh?

It occurs to me, cjl...this is kinda the reverse of your premature epilogue to the series several months ago, isn't it? The one where Buffy meets Joss, & he lets her choose where she goes from there. Great in a whole different way.

[> [> [> The Rescue, Part IV-A , "The Retconning" -- Rhysdux, 00:54:08 06/03/03 Tue

Okay, this is a combination of my post and HonorH's. I hope that the post shows up in a halfway visible spot...

***

ROCHEFORT: Itís not my fault, whatever you sayó

(The escaping MOLOJ members wait while Rochefort tries to raise anom on his walkie-talkie. The Scoobies are starting to wake up.)

WILLOW: Monkeys got clothes . . .

CJL: I think they're starting to come out of it. Xander? You in there, man?

XANDER: Anya, sweetie, roll over. Gotta make room for Andrew.

(The MOLOJ stand around blinking, hoping they heard wrong.)

ROCHEFORT: Anom, you copy?

(Finally the static breaks. The voice that comes through isn't anom's. It's definitely female, and most definitely pissed off.)

SAM: Mind if I have a chat with my husband?

RILEY: Oh, @#%^.

PONYGIRL (to Rob): Did you know he could swear like that?

ROB: Would never have guessed.

(Reluctantly, Riley takes the walkie-talkie.)

RILEY: Sweetie, you're taking this far too personally. I mean, who stun-gunned me in Guatemala after I got infected by that horny demon?

ROCHEFORT: For the love of all that's unholy, Finn, just promise her roses, tell her her butt looks great in that outfit, and ask her to let anom go! We're working on a schedule here.

RILEY: Listen, Sammy, I know I should've told you, but you knew what Joss was doing was wrong just as much as I did. Let us get the Scoobies out and we can . . . (looks nervously at Rochefort, covers his mouth and the receiver with one hand, and mumbles something. After a moment, he grins and gives Rochefort the thumbs-up.) Love you too, baby. See you in sixty. (switches the walkie-talkie off) We got it. Sam's in.

ROB (fretting): But how are we going to rescue HonorH and whoever else Joss has in there? He could be keeping the entire "Firefly" cast.

Meanwhile, back in the mansion, Joss considers his new ally nervously.)

HONORIFICUS doesnít seem to notice JOSSís nervousness, as she is leering evilly yet happily at WOOD. WOOD regards her with a mixture of sexual attraction and alarm. This is not surprising, as HONORIFICUSís demonic divinity garb has been transformed into soft, supple, sensual black leather. She looks like the Demon Goddess Dominatrix Empress of Hell and all surrounding territories. JOSS seems to be trying to keep more than an armís length away from her.

HONORIFICUS (backing WOOD into a corner): Oh, Wood, youíre going to learn so much more about true evil than you ever dreamed possible. The darkness, the agony, how to manipulate enemies and influence allies, the pungent smell of roasting fleshÖ

JOSS: How about a guest spot on Angel? I'm sure we could swing something.

HONORIFICUS (grabbing Wood with all of her hands): Depends. What would I be wearing?

(HONORIFICUS has not noticed JOSS removing CJLís pen from his pocket, or the fact that JOSS is now leaning against a wall in the compound which has been painted white.

JOSS (hastily scribbling something on the wallpaper near the door): You just donít get it, do you? Iím the writer! I have the power!

HONORIFICUS screams a horrible ululating wail and falls to her knees. She seems to be in unbearable pain, which may have been partially caused by the retconning of her sexy, stylish black leather outfit into a fluffy pink wool sweater, a lime green polyester tank top, a khaki maxi skirt, and scuffed brown and white saddle shoes.)

HONORIFICUS: NOOOOOOOOOO! What did you DO to me?!

JOSS (snickering): Buffy?

BUFFY appears, seemingly out of thin air.

JOSS: Tell her.

BUFFY (in a patient voice): You have a sooooooul now.

JOSS nods and BUFFY disappears.

HONORIFICUS: (She suddenly gasps, all of her hands going to her breast or her head.) Oh, for the love of Versace, not now, notó

(Too late. Her figure shifts and dwindles down to that of HonorH.)

HONORH: --now. Uh-oh. (Spots Joss, smiles, feigns clueless.) Have I been behaving badly?

JOSS: You have no idea. (Looms threateningly over her)

(HONORH is forced to think quickly, which is never a good idea with her. She blurts out the first thing that comes to mind, which is:)

HONORH: I have swimmer's ear!

JOSS (stopping, puzzled): Eh?

HONORH: Can't believe that worked. 'Bye! (Turns and bolts through a nearby door.)

JOSS (scribbling): That door doesnít go anywhereÖnow.

HONORH re-enters the room she just left through another door and groans in frustration.

JOSS: Now to take care of your friendsÖ

JOSSís voice booms all around the ranch, like the voice of God speaking.

JOSS: Riley, take these people prisoner.

(RILEY immediately disarms all the MOLOJ membersóeven Slayer Ponygirl.)

PONYGIRL: Riley! How can you do this?

RILEY (wretchedly): Iím sorry. I donít want to betray you. Itís just that itís my duty to capture anyone who enters this compound, and Joss always wrote me as being passionately devoted to duty. Thereís nothing I can do.

RILEY escorts them back to the main room in JOSSís house. JOSS, HONORH and the SCOOBIES are there already, as are FORREST and a few other Initiative members. The Initiative members immediately begin guarding the members of MOLOJ.

JOSS (smirks): Iíll have to create a new prison for you lot. But donít worryóIíll make sure that all of you experience exactly what my pets have been going through for years. In fact, maybe itís time I gave you a sample just what life is going to be like for you from now on. Oh, Marti?

(MARTI appears in a puff of pink smoke beside JOSS.

MARTI (typing on a laptop as she speaks): All of you are totally helpless, unable to move. You are depressed, lost in a maze of bad relationships that make you dirty, degraded and inhuman. You are all addicted to lesbian-sex-and-or-drugs in the form of magic. And not one of you has ever, ever been happy.

(The MOLOJ group fights MARTIís words furiously, but minute by minute the twisted storylines seem to be coming true. The harder they fight, the more futile it becomes.)

WILLOW (sitting on the edge of the bed, looking despondent): We all fought it at firstÖthen we realized there was absolutely nothing we could do. Weíre helplessÖforever. Even me. I canít cast a single spell unless Joss or Marti will it. (sobs)

JOSS (gloating): And there is NOTHING you can do about it.

VOICE (offstage): Oh no?

(JOSSís pen disintegrates. So does MARTIís laptop. The twisted storylinesóand HONORHís hideous outfitóvanish as RHYSDUX, accompanied by hundreds of thousands of people, mostly female stroll through the door. The room shouldnít be able to hold these many people, but in some dimensionally transcendental way, it manages to expand.)

ANOM: Rhysdux, watch out! Joss is dangerous.

RHYSDUX doesnít spare a glance in JOSSís or MARTIís direction. Instead, she addresses the vast hordes before her.

RHYSDUX: Ladies and gentlemen, Iíd like you to meet Joss Whedon and Marti Noxon. Theyíre going to be your characters for today.

JOSS and MARTI: What?!

RHYSDUX (continuing, with a very evil gleam in her eye): Now remember, this is a no-holdsí-barred exercise. You can use any ëship, any setting, any time that you want. The only requirement is that you use these two in your stories somewhere. BeginningÖnow. Pencils, pens, laptopsóGO!

The hordes begin scribbling. JOSS begins to scream as, within the space of three seconds, he is alternately teleported to the Quantum Leap universe with the Buffybot, mind-switched with Connor Angel, and murdered by the Immortal Kronos.

MARTI shrieks and tries to flee, but is immediately ambushed by Xena, Gabrielle and the First Slayer for perpetuating stereotypes about rape on the show.

RHYSDUX (over the noise of the melee and mayhem): Come on. (motions the MOLOJ and the Buffy characters toward the door.)

GILES (looking sternly at RHYSDUX): We canít go out there. Weíd be annihilated. Listen.

(Screaming can be heard from outside. Everyone looks troubled, with the exception of HONORH, who briefly transforms into HONORIFICUS, looks delighted at the sounds of pain and misery, then turns back into HONORH again.)

XANDER: Not really sounding harmless out there.

RHYSDUX (chuckles): Really not. Thatís our defensive weapon. Not even Joss has any defenses that can withstand this.

RHYSDUX leads them out the door. Outside, battalions of incredibly beautiful and unbelievably strong young women, all with oddly colored hair and eyes, and all with nametags bearing names like ìSariad,î ìKymbyrleeî or ìAraminta,î are fighting Jossís army. Despite the fact that the soldiers keep killing them, the girls continue to fight, pausing only to die in improbable yet noble ways. About half of them are coming back from the dead as vampires who are immune to the cross and the stake or as Immortals.

PONYGIRL (whispering): Mary SueÖ

RHYSDUX: Yep. Miss Cam of Middle-Earthís fanfic university explained to the Mary Sues that they had a duty and a responsibility to go out there and fight, maybe die, for the freedom of their favorite characters. (shrugs) Like they were going to say no. I mean, this is what they were born for, in a way.

(The MOLOJ group and the Scoobies reach the escape vans. GYRUS and FINN MACCOOL are in one, LITTLEBIT and FIDHLE in a second, CACTUSWATCHER and MSGILES in a third, and RANDOM, CARO and VAMPRILEY in the fourth. The Scoobies are escorted to the various vans. CJL pauses, turning to RHYSDUX.)

CJL: Where did you find all those people who were writing tales about Joss and Marti?

RHYSDUX: Oh, Godawful Fan Fiction, BadBuffyFic, Official Buffy Angel Fanfiction UniversityÖ.

ANOM (also pausing): You sicced writers of bad fanfic on them? Thatís absolutelyÖ

RHYSDUX (grinning): I know.

RANDOM (motioning frantically): Get in the vans NOW!!

(The MOLOJ gang and the Scooby Gang hasten into the vans, close the doors, and drive down the private road leading to the compound.)

POV: INSIDE OF VAN

BUFFY: So, where are you taking us?

HONORH: We were thinking SeacouverÖ

PONYGIRL (faintly): You know what, guys? I'm not sure that's what we should be worrying about right now.

(She points. The members of MOLOJ whirl as one to behold the massive Turok-Han army approaching their vans.)

LEAD TUROK: Grr. Arrgh.

End of Part IV-A! Who wants to do Part V?

[> [> [> [> I just want to rescue Joss and Marti in my slavish devotion to them -- lunasea, 06:01:43 06/03/03 Tue

[> [> [> [> Ah, much better! -- HonorH, 09:19:06 06/03/03 Tue

Spectacular job of integrating both parts, Rhysdux! Inflicting badfic writers and Mary Sues on Joss, thought--that's just evil.

[> [> [> [> [> Why, thank you, HonorH! -- Rhysdux, 10:57:09 06/03/03 Tue

It's so flattering to have one's vileness appreciated by someone who has the evilest alter ego on the planet.

[> [> Fellow fanficcers: If you don't mind--I started this mess, and I'd like to finish it. -- cjl, 09:12:16 06/03/03 Tue

I'm working on the conclusion now, and I'll post it later tonight.

It won't be what you expect.

[> [> [> will it answer some burning questions? -- anom, 10:10:57 06/03/03 Tue

Like is the pen mightier than the Scythe? Just how far is this halfway house from the fortress-like mansion, & how did I get from there to said mansion? (Joss wrote, "Whoever is on the other end of that walkie-talkie appears in front of the Initiative members' gun barrels"?) Who else is at the halfway house--enough people to jump Sam & whoever else she brought w/her? Is Sam the only female member of the Initiative, & did she have any more trouble being accepted than Buffy? Can the different versions of Part IV really be reconciled? And most important...will I have any more puns?

[> [> [> [> oh yeah--1 more q. -- anom, 17:29:41 06/03/03 Tue

Where's Dawn?

[> [> [> [> [> Dawn is in Finn MacCool's van, of course. -- Rhysdux, 00:38:38 06/04/03 Wed

That's why I put Finn in one of the vans. So he could have Dawn with him.

[> [> [> Fine by me! -- HonorH, 10:23:28 06/03/03 Tue

Just watch the clothes, okay?

[> [> [> [> Looking forward to the conclusion, cjl! -- Rhysdux, 11:04:05 06/03/03 Tue

[> [> I laughed, I cried, I learned. Bring it on home, cjl!! -- Arethusa, 09:26:33 06/03/03 Tue

[> [> The Rescue (Part V) -- cjl, 22:00:55 06/03/03 Tue

When we last saw our heroes:

[The MOLOJ commandos and the Scooby Gang hasten into the vans, close the doors, and drive down the private road leading to the compound.]

BUFFY (drowsily): W-where are you taking us?

HONORH: We were thinking Seacouver...

PONYGIRL (faintly): You know what, guys? I'm not sure that's what we should be worrying about right now.

[She points. The members of MOLOJ whirl as one to behold the massive Turok-Han army approaching their vans.]

LEAD TUROK: Grr. Arrgh.

[POV: INSIDE OF VAN]

CJL (angrily): Iíve had enough of this crap. [Starts rummaging through a rather dangerous-looking pile of metallic objects in a corner of the van.]

ROCHEFORT: Blocked. All sides.

PONYGIRL: We need a teleportation spell. A big one.

HONORH (sarcastic): Hey, no problem. Weíve got the most powerful witch in the Western Hemisphere, remember?

WILLOW (still groggy): No, mommy, I can go to school today. Itís just a little fever, no problem...

[CJL comes out of the pile with what seems to be a sword.]

CJL (looks it over): Thatíll do. [He strides toward the back of the van. HonorH heads him off.]

HONORH: Excuse me, where do you think youíre going?

CJL: Out.

HONORH: This is not exactly the best time for sightseeing.

CJL: Not exactly the best time for sitting tight, either.

HONORH: What, youíre going to go outside and fight the army of the undead with a-- [Grabs CJLís wrist, and accidentally brushes against the hilt of the sword] This thing is PLASTIC! [Reads the inscription] "He-Man and the Masters of the Universe"?! Have you lost your MIND?!

[The van starts to tilt from side to side, sending HonorH sprawling, and allowing CJL to throw open the back doors of the van. He leaps out--just before a lunging Rochefort has a chance to grab his leg--then closes the doors quickly behind him.]

ROCHEFORT (still holding a fistful of air): Damn.

ANOM (coming in over ponygirlís walkie-talkie): Punfu to pg, this is punfu to pg, come in, pg.

PONYGIRL: Howís it going over there, punfu?

ANOM (v.o.): Not very good. Weíre picking off a few of them with small weapons fire, but for every one we kill, two charge right in. Kind of like a gift with purchase. How are things on your end?

PONYGIRL: Oh, not bad. Weíre surrounded by Turok-Han, our only experienced Slayer is the poster girl for Phenobarbital, and CJL has apparently committed suicide. Other than that, weíre fine.

[A moment of stunned silence.]

ANOM (v.o.): Weíve got another complication.

HONORH: And the fun just keeps on leaviní.

ANOM (v.o.): I just talked to Rufus at the safe house. Our little guerilla operation just escaped the zoo.

PONYGIRL: Huh?

ANOM (v.o.) Itís all over the Buffy boards. lunasea is gathering an army of B/A shippers, Tara, Oz, Anya and Cordelia holdouts from BC&S are mobilizing, and Rufus says there are thousands of Spuffy fanatics booking plane tickets to Seacouver as we speak.

ROCHEFORT (grabbing the walkie-talkie): What the hell happened? This entire operation was predicated on secrecy! You, me, ponygirl, Rufus, cjl and HonorH were the only ones who knew the location!

ANOM (v.o.): Rufus said--

[Silence.]

ROCHEFORT: Anom? Are you all right?

ANOM (v.o.): Iím fine. Thatís funny--the van stopped shaking. Anyway, Rufus said somebody from the L.A. area leaked it on one of the Spike boards.

[All eyes turn to ponygirl.]

PONYGIRL (avoiding eye contact): I-I resent that insinuation.

ROCHEFORT (sighs): It doesnít matter. The safe house has been compromised. Every shipper in North America is going to be waiting to get a piece of their favorite Scoobie. Itíll be like throwing them to the sharks.

ANOM (v.o.): Well, as they say in the movies--Where Do We Go from Here?

ROCHEFORT: Itís not going to make any difference if weíre--

[The van stops shaking. Silence. The sound of crickets can be heard from outside.]

ROCHEFORT: --stuck.

[Suddenly, the back doors of the van fly open, and CJL, apparently no worse for wear, hops in and closes the doors behind him.

CJL: Weíre clear. Letís get moving.

HONORH (picking her jaw up off the floor): Wait a minute. Are you telling me you took out an army of Turok-Han with that stupid little plastic sword?

CJL: Oh, come on. How can anybody take those guys seriously after what happened in "Chosen"? Two million ubervamps against thirty slayers? For Godís sake, they couldnít even kill Andrew!

[Nodding and murmurs to the effect of "heís got a point" all around.]

CJL [To Rochefort] Uh, fearless leader? Have we got ourselves a convoy?

ROCHEFORT (doing his best Shatner into the walkie-talkie): Attention, all units--letís get the hell out of here.

[A roar of engines, and the caravan speeds off into the night.]

TO BE CONCLUDED TOMORROW. (PROMISE!)

[> [> [> Yay! More more! -- ponygirl, 07:37:38 06/04/03 Wed

[> Rochefort, cjl, ponygirl, Rhys, HonorH - many thanks!!!! -- Caroline, 11:50:36 06/03/03 Tue

[> It's the Scoobs' own faults... -- Kenny, 18:58:12 06/03/03 Tue

They've known this would happen all along. Remember Owen? That's when Joss started pulling his little tricks. Buffy saw it pretty quickly and kicked the guy to the curb. Ever since that moment they've known what danger they're putting people into, and they do it anyway. Quite selfish on their parts. Other examples?

Olivia. Joss wasn't going to take the risk of another Jenny. He wanted to get her out of town fast, so he sent in the creepiest uglies he could find. Worked, too. The others can get brief moments of happiness, but Giles just isn't allowed. Either Joss hates British people or is more in love with Giles than anyone else. There's just too much evidence either way.

Riley. Here's one who got a clue. In return, Joss let him marry Marti Noxon. By now each person on this board has decided for themself whether that was a reward or a punishment.

Larry. Liked Buffy. Joss turned him gay. Gotta be Joss' favorite trick.

Every female in Sunnydale. Remember, they've all been in love with Xander. Joss took his time with this one. Now, yeah, he's shown a bit of mercy to most of them, considerinng it was a spell, but he still needed to vent. Amy got turned into a rat. Harmony got vamped. Every unnamed girl whose died? Remember, she loved Xander at some point. And finally Joss couldn't take it anymore and tried to off them in one fell swoop. But Buffy destroyed the mayor. Joss, being the evil mastermind he is, wasn't defeated that easily. He bid...bided...bideted...whatever...his time. And it paid off. He found a repugnant mysogonist named Caleb to help end it all. But he overplanned, giving the city time to escape. Fear not, though, he can still destory the world! And then that pesky Buffy decided to step in and kill that wonderful woman-hater Caleb. And Buffy gets all pissy about it and decides to show that girls are better than boys, so nyaahhh to you, Joss! So then Joss just threw a tempter tantrum and sunk Sunnydale. All because of one little love spell gone awry. Joss is a dick.

Follow up to lunasea (Spoiler for Chosen) -- Sophist, 18:05:49 05/31/03 Sat

You and I were referring to different scenes. The one I had in mind was this:

EXT. SUMMERS' HOME - NIGHT

Buffy stands on the front porch, worried as hell and very much alone. After a long while, she takes the lantern and heads inside.

INT. SUMMERS' HOME - BASEMENT - NIGHT

Spike sits, shirted this time, on the bed. He looks at the amulet, thinking.

He stands as Buffy comes down the stairs. They stand on opposite sides of the room, looking at each other.

Your post referenced the earlier scene with S/B in bed, when Buffy gets up and is approached by Caleb/FE. I agree about your scene; the one I meant is (arguably) a different story.

[> Re: Follow up to sophist (Spoiler for Chosen) -- sdev, 02:40:25 06/01/03 Sun

Rewatched that scene. Tough read. Given the relationship history and prior lack of shyness (see Touched) in being explicit about who was doing who, I would have to say, I don't think so. Also, why show us the Angel kiss and then show us nothing comparable?

[> [> Response to sdev and lunasea (Spoiler for Chosen) -- Sophist, 08:53:14 06/01/03 Sun

I asked myself the question: Why was this scene shown?

I can't think of an explanation other than to suggest sex between Buffy and Spike. Obviously, the scene is very brief and I certainly wouldn't insist on my interpretation (though I personally like it). But what other interpretation can you suggest?

[> [> [> A theory of sorts on what the writers were doing with B/S (Spoiler for Chosen) -- s'kat, 12:43:33 06/01/03 Sun

I've thought about this...

In Btvs, the show does a very good job of subtly showing us how relationships advance, how people go through stages, and push forward complex moral themes without feeling the need to hammer us over the head with it. Most shows - like The Practice, Dawson's Creek, Gilmore Girls - feel the need to have long speeches about why someone does something or why you don't want to just have sex and what a long-lasting relationship is. If you saw the 2- hour Finale to Dawson's Creek which consisted of Joey/Dawson/Pacey discussing in detail their triangle - you know what I mean ;-) Btvs has always avoided that - allowing the audience to come to their own conclusions.

So what conclusions did I come to? Well, I had a long talk with a close friend about this scene yesterday, and here's the conclusions we came up with:

The sex in S6 was lust. We all know what Buffy thought. But Spike - he was a soulless demon which in Whedonverse is a metaphor for the juvenile. As a soulless demon, or "adolescent" Spike saw sex as equalling love. To him - if you craved someone physically - that equalled love. He believed you could make someone feel love. That sex was the expression of it. This in a way is an extension of Buffy's own views - Buffy and Angel broke up because they couldn't express their love sexually. This happens a lot in teen and young adult relationships - where it really is all about the sex. (Not all relationships obviously - but the majority). Many young people between the ages of 16-35
view sex as the only expression of love. What I think the writers may have been attempting to do here was explore how we can move from the "lust" stage to a stage of true caring and friendship - something deeper.

After Spike got his soul - he never once forced himself on Buffy nor did he ask her for that type of love. At first, in BY - Sleeper, he thought that was what he wanted, but by the time Never Leave ME rolled around - it wasn't. He didn't want "sexual" love from her - he wanted her respect and trust. Her friendship. Before in S6, after they started the sex, they never talked - it was all about kissing and humping and sex. She was ashamed of him. Now in S7, she isn't hiding him from other people, everyone in the house knows she cares about him. She tells him she believes in him and they begin to connect on an emotional/intellectual level as opposed to the pure physical level. And the emotional/intellectual level - both discover is more worthwhile. This is the meaning partly behind the scenes in Touched - where we have all these people connecting physically, while Buffy/Spike are connecting emotionally and intellectually.

What does he tell her in Touched? That in 100 years, he never really connected with anyone. That last year he'd done things with her he couldn't even spell. But that night where all he did was hold her and watch her sleep - was the best night of his entire life. And what does she tell him?
That she was there with him. That he had given her the confidence to get back into the fight. The emotional and
intellectual connection that has been slowly building between them since Lessons...affected them both. It's one of trust and respect for another person. And it is adult love not high school romance or lust. It's deeper and different. I'm not saying "sex" isn't important, nor do I believe the show is saying that - what they are saying is that it's NOT the most important thing, in the scheme of things, it may actually be less important for B/S to have sex than just to be there for each other, to hold and comfort each other. Sex without emotional/intellectual connection - both characters discovered was empty. Just as the characters have discovered that you can have a very close relationship without sex and have it be meaningful.

At any rate - I think that scene in the basement, was Whedon's way of showing us that these two characters saw each other finally as equals on the same plain. They respected and trusted and yes, cared deeply for one another. And were connected. Whedon did not do the scene the way David E. Kelly or Kevin Williamson or Aaron Sorkin would with lots of long monologues or passionate kissing, he did it subtly and visually with lighting, mood and sound. Whether they had sex or not was irrelevant. What was important was Spike and Buffy respected and trusted one another. They knew what was in each other's hearts. It's not unlike the scene between Willow and Xander in the hospital in Empty Places or better yet on Bluff in Grave. Although I think the love between Spike and Buffy is different than that...I do think it's as strong.

We may curse ME for its ambiguous writing, yet...I think we almost prefer it in a way, it allows us the ability to argue and debate and read in our own interpretations. In some ways I think I prefer the fact that the writers don't tell us everything. The reason I prefer Btvs to say Gilmore Girls or Dawsons' Creek or the Practice is the ambiquity.
The subtle dialogue and visuals. I like the fact that there can be more than one interpretation - yet the overall message is still there, subtly stated.

Just my ten cents anyways...take it or leave it. ;-)

sk

[> [> [> [> Ambiguity is the soul of art. (Spoiler through Chosen) -- Sophist, 14:35:15 06/01/03 Sun

Your's is a perfectly good theory. The reason I believe they had sex was that ME had already gone to considerable lengths to emphasize the connection between the two. Starting with "I believe in you, Spike" in Sleeper through the earlier scene of them in bed in Chosen, ME built this theme and reinforced it. JMHO, but I doubt they felt the need for another such scene so soon after Touched and earlier in Chosen itself. I believe that penultimate scene between them implied that they did have sex.

I agree with you that the scene is all the more powerful because we'll never know for sure.

[> [> [> [> I see two seperate issues here. -- Dandy, 20:31:30 06/01/03 Sun

I have always seen two seperate issues here. They apply to both Buffy and Spike.

The first is the work issue-for Buffy it is her mission, for Spike his redemption. The second is the emotional life of each.

Spike has never had a true love relationship with any woman.

If you look at the early relationship with Druscilla you see a pattern of her saying something that generates an angry response from him, she cries and he apologizes. Later when Druscilla gets stronger she taunts him with Angel. It is always an abusive relationship.

Even in his relationship with Buffy Spike is constantly available to other women-Anya, the trollop he brings to the wedding, flirting with Faith. Cecily was a non-relationship. While his mother was a good woman, it did seem there were problems there. She is named Anne, Buffy's middle name. And perhaps Buffy's morality brings him back to the morality, humanity of his mother, his human roots.

My thesis is that he never really loved Buffy. She was only a guidepost, a moral beacon for him. She was the only pure woman he had been involved with since his mother. His vampirism nver allowed for true love. He kept calling it love but don't actions speak louder than words? Most of his initial acts of heroism were self-serving, geared towards geting possesion of Buffy sexually and emotionally.He didn't love her because he was not capable of love. He was not capable of knowing that what he was feeling was not love but possesiveness, obsession.

This is why Buffy continually rejects him verbally. She never lost her morality. She seperated her emotions and her sexual desires. She would never let herself become emotionally involved with an immoral creature, though she did sexually. Buffy had experienced true romantic love in her life, unlike Spike.

Buffy only connects emotionally with Spike after he gets a soul. But she defends him in her capacity as slayer, as the law and moral compass that she is. She respects his journey.

I do not think that Buffy ever was in love with Spike, but she loved him (to paraphrase SMG) Only now, after he has a soul could she even begin to fathom loving him.

My feeling is that it would have to be her call on whether the relationship went to a romantic level at this point. I think if Buffy had said I could love you instead of I do love you to Spike at the end it would have been more believable to him. Only now is he worthy to begin to be loved by her. With his self-sacrifice they achieve a parity they never had before.

[> [> [> [> [> I only agree in part -- Sophist, 09:31:02 06/02/03 Mon

I know I'm stepping on s'k's lines here, but she's used to that by now...

Even in his relationship with Buffy Spike is constantly available to other women-Anya, the trollop he brings to the wedding, flirting with Faith.

Just a factual point. This is not fair to Spike. Anya and the trollop came after Buffy broke up with him, not during their relationship. Flirting (and I'd say it's more accurate that Faith was flirting with him) hardly counts as a violation of trust; if it does, we're all in violation.

He kept calling it love but don't actions speak louder than words? Most of his initial acts of heroism were self-serving, geared towards geting possesion of Buffy sexually and emotionally.He didn't love her because he was not capable of love.

This has been debated quite a lot. Aside from the dialogue in Crush, the biggest problem I have with this argument is that it demands more of Spike than we actually demand of human beings in our daily lives. If you did not know Spike was a vampire, but merely watched his behavior, you'd call what you saw "love". Hardly the most noble of loves, but still love.

The evidence on Buffy is ambiguous enough that you can see her as not "in love" and I can see that she was.

[> [> [> [> [> [> I suppose it comes down to one's definition of love. -- Dandy, 11:53:44 06/02/03 Mon

I suppose it comes down to one's definition of love. I see true love as more protective and insightful than what I see between Buffy and Spike, less about possesion and filling neurotic emotional and sexual needs.

I don't see the relationship between pre-soul Spike and Buffy as being love. It's sex. It is a relationship but it is an imbablanced one of need and convenience. Since Spike has no morality and Buffy is all about morality how can he truly ever see her for who she is? Until he gets a soul and the conscience that comes along with it he never sees her and more importantly he can never see himself through her eyes. He is not self aware.
I don't think that Spike was ever protective of Buffy. Having sex with her by the dumpster, on the balcony where she could be caught by her friends or the public, telling her they could just go have sex on the grass before she goes in the house, trying to take awy her own moral center by burying Warren's girlfriend and not wanting her to go to the police. If he had truly loved and SEEN her he would have realized that going to the police at that juncture was integral to her being. He only saw that he might be deprived of her presence. It was a selfish act.

Time and again his motivation was possesion. When he gets his soul back he is so disgusted with himself he can barely hang on to his sanity. Now he longs for love, not just sex.

I do think they went to each other to have needs fulfilled.
For Buffy it was the gaping emotional crater within her. There is a kind of vampirism to both. She is sucking on his emotional expression and empathy. Spike is astute about everyone but himself. He needs her as a guidepost to his redemption. Her moral center is like a beacon to him. He mistakes this for love but it really isn't. He needs to feed on her morality to nourish his own awakening moral sense. This is his true need, the one that will lead to the final orgasmic relaease of soul we see in the finale. The sex, possesion and playing at love are only old habits taking hold.

JM is a great and captivating actor. I don't think so many fans would be giving Spike so much leeway if played by another actor in another manner. It's all very nice to sit safe at home and fantasize about Spike but is this really a guy you would want to try to have a serious relationship with? Part of growing up is demanding certain behavioral standards from people in relationships beyond charisma and sex appeal.

I think we would have given Buffy's plight more sympathy if SMG had let us in a little more. She was frustratingly one note in her performance. It is never all on the page. The story is in part told by the non-verbal tranferance of emotion from the actors, otherwise it would be a novel.

I like what JM did with the character because it adds antoher layer to the character, creates greater conflict among the viewers which I think is good. Ultimately, though the pre-soul Spike is a bad man on most of the evidence. Deep in a relationship with Buffy he hid demon eggs capable of growing up to destroy Buufy. Mistaking sexual passion for love he tried to rape her. How could he do that? Because without a soul he did not know how to act in love, that real love is not that selfish.

As far as Anya and the trollop go-is this really how we want men in love to act? To forget, turn thier heads so quickly to someone else? Would this make you feel loved if a man did this to you? It would make me feel either unloved or emotionally attacked by this man, certainly not loved. And I do think he was flirting with Faith, little bit too receptive to her charms.

I guess my definition of love is good love. Real love is taking someone else's being and concerns into your heart, internalizing their being so you know instinctively what is right for them, not just acting impulsively and manipulatively to satisfy your own selfish needs. Spike senses her emotional vulnerability, her emotional and sexual need and he preys on it initially.

Real love for Buffy would involve feeling safe with her lover, feeling a deep trust. She cannot with him. Buffy does see Spike for what he is and so is embaressed to introduce him into her circle as her lover. Spike is a moral imbecile. Her friends have devoted their lives to her moral mission. She must compartmentalize in order to have any relationship with him. She is able to do that for a time.

Buffy, with her near perfect morality stands by him when he starts to genuinely get on the road to redemption. She defends him. She nourishes him. She gives him his shot at greatness. She is his mentor.

I think that what make Spike so much more compelling as a character than Buffy was that his redemption came from within. We could see him struggling and trying. We could root for him. Buffy's journey is about accepting her burden, living within its constraints. Buffy could not free herself from within. Her emancipation had to come from without in the form of sharing her power, destroying the hellmouth.

Actually, I am happy for anyone to ship any way and interpret the story different ways. That's why it is such a rich text. So, please don't let me change your mind. I'm just calling it as I see it, knowing that many differ.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Bumper sticker on JM's car: "I am not Spike." -- Sophist, 12:54:10 06/02/03 Mon

I firmly believe JM deserves enormous credit for his acting skills. I also firmly believe that the Spike we saw on screen was not his creation, but the creation of JW; JW intended for us to see the Spike we actually saw.

My main point about vampires and love was that I read many of the claims about vampire acts and think "Humans do this too." If so, and if we still are willing to say those humans are in love -- and I have no doubt whatsoever that we do exactly this -- I don't see any basis for denying that Spike loved Buffy. It may not be the love we'd want, it may not be noble, but it's love.

As for the rest, I agree that the great accomplishment of BtVS is that we can both watch the same scenes and interpret them in radically different ways. :)

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> love and text -- Dandy, 14:04:58 06/02/03 Mon

Yes, humans get themselves involved in a lot of relationships I would not qualify as love.

I see love as something purer and transcendent so I do not believe that every couple who is in a sexual relationship is in a love relationship.

I do not think JM played Spike exactly as directed or went against what was directed. I believe that JM and the creative team of ME discussed various things. He tried various things that the writers liked and were inspired by. I believe his acting influenced the writing. I think there was a collaborative process there. ME liked what it was seeing the actor do so let him do it.

There is a Succubus Club interview done with David Fury right after the attempted rape episode aired that supports this. When asked whether the writers saw how sympathetically Spike was coming across and why they let it happen, he replied that they saw it but would say oh, that's such a nice Spike and Buffy moment and went with it.

Recently in the City of Angel interview David Fury said that JM was always into talking and working on his scenes, never in a hurry to finish. Joss Whedon and JM have talked about one of the pivotal moments in the developement of the musical episode being a party at Joss house where Joss started to play a song he wrote, JM grabbed a guitar and accompanied him, encouraged him. JM has said that this led to a cross-polination of ideas between artists. JM has had his own theater companies and says he tries to be the kind of actor he would like to employ. I point out these examples to show that JM is a collaborative artist who extends himself to the creative process. He has also written. He is older and far more experienced than most of the actors on the show, having done theater for years. The rehearsal process for theater allows and encourages more exploration between actor and director than film. As a Shakespearean actor he has, of necesiity, an analytical mind.

Having done some acting and directing myself I can see what he is bringing to the interpretation of his character but I can understand this not being obvious to a lot of viewers. Maybe the thing that really showed me this was going to acting class and seeing other students do a scene I was working on and seeing how different it could be, how they interpreted it in ways I never would have though of. Actors come up with ideas and very actor has thier own unique presence.

For a small example of this see Marti Noxon's I Only Have Eyes for You. Each set of actors brings a slightly different flavor to the scene between the ghost lovers.
Another example, off the top of my head is Naomi Watts in Mullholland Drive. She is an actress who rehearses a scene with her roomate. Later we see her audition for the part and the difference is astounding. What she does in her audition goes totally against the text. This is a great example of the input an actor can have.

I think other actors like Michelle Tractenberg and Sarah Michelle Gellar go and do thier scenes 'as directed' without analyzing the text very much and the rest fall on a spectrum with JM being the most analytical of text.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> JM and the evolution of Spike -- curious, 18:27:07 06/02/03 Mon

I do not think JM played Spike exactly as directed or went against what was directed. I believe that JM and the creative team of ME discussed various things. He tried various things that the writers liked and were inspired by. I believe his acting influenced the writing. I think there was a collaborative process there. ME liked what it was seeing the actor do so let him do it.

There was a big discussion this week of how much JM changed the intent of the writing. It is archived and still pretty easy to find so I won't go into it. I think you are probably right that there was some collaboration between the actor and the writers but I also think they had an actor who was brave enough and skilled enough to try very daring things - to go places that other actors would not or could not go. And to risk falling on his face and making a fool of himself. He delivered what ME wanted - or he wouldn't have been hired. There was a lot of gender bending in Season 6 that might not have been entirely flattering to the average vain actor. Uncomfortable for some, moving and compelling to others.

In a fairly recent interview on the BBC's web site, Juliet Landau says she was cast first without an audition (probably because she was semi-famous and had worked with Marti Noxon in a play) and tried scenes with several other actors. She and James really played off each other well so he was cast with her. Originally, Dru was supposed to be the "big bad" with Angelus and Spike was to be killed off much earlier. But they really liked JM. ASH says in the DVD commentary that they all begged for scenes with Spike.

They asked him to be a regular after "Lover's Walk" and he was told that he would "go for Buffy" in Season 5 some time in Season 4. According to the Season 4 DVD commentary, Spike was originally envisioned as the character who said "You're stupid and we're all going to die!!" like Cordelia did in Seasons 1-3 and then Anya did. JM says he "failed miserably" as Cordelia. It didn't work so the writers changed directions. The WRITERS (not JM) had to really bend Spike's character to fit him into the Scoobies - first with the chip. But the intention was that Spike would fall in love with Buffy pretty early on. JM didn't create that. JW did. Spike's evolution from somewhat soulful and loving with Dru, to trying to figure out what would make Buffy love him to eventually getting a soul came from the writers who knew they had an actor who could pull it off. How many actors could pull off "Fool for Love"? But JM didn't write FFL - Doug Petrie did in a couple of days. JM was shocked that Spike had been a wuss and not a badass from day one.

Recent interviews with JM also suggest that the AR scene was much more violent and intense than intended because JM got freaked out due to his own abhorrence of violence against women. The scene was based on a female writer's experience of trying to rekindle a relationship with an ex with sex and they didn't really consider how different the scene would play with the man as the aggressor. This scene could have destroyed a lesser actor's career so I really don't think he played it up to change the scene to his advantage somehow. They may have televised a scene that was more intense than written but not because JM engineered it that way.

The issue of whether or not Spike could love without a soul will be argued forever. We all see different things based on our experiences and perceptions. Was the relationship with Buffy healthy? NO. But not just because Spike didn't have a soul. Buffy had her own problems. She was the one who didn't want to talk about the relationship. She is the one who mainly wanted sex in order to "feel". What was she doing running around with a vampire in the first place? There were plenty of other women Spike could dominate and have sex with. Buffy was different for him. Spike's story was about growth and change - his and Buffy's. The fact that Spike was motivated to get a soul was significant and seems to suggest to many of us that he did love Buffy.

The interesting thing about JM is that he is able to interact with other actors in such a way that he brings a lot out in the open. I liked him interacting with Giles, Willow, Riley, Xander, Dawn, Anya, Faith - everybody. Other actors say they liked working with him. ME would be crazy not to exploit an actor who has that ability. One of the things that was most troubling to me in Seasons 6 and 7 was that he was almost exclusively dealing with Buffy. I hope he deals with many more people on AtS.

As for the rest, I agree that the great accomplishment of BtVS is that we can both watch the same scenes and interpret them in radically different ways. :)

YES!

Yikes! I didn't mean to write so much. I do think you are right about JM being the most analytical actor of the bunch. I just don't think that is a bad thing. I also think he is the most charismatic and brings out the most in the other actors he has scenes with. Even the people who complain about Spike are affected by him. These are not bad things IMO.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Completely and utterly agree w/both curious and Sophist -- s'kat, 19:34:25 06/02/03 Mon

Thank you for these posts guys. Real Life has intervened
for me today - two interviews this week that I'm stressed
about. And I don't play nice when I'm stressed, see the
"There should be a play thread" - for a few examples.
So I decided to wisely keep my mouth shut on this baby.

Thank you for debating it for me. And doing it so well.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Good Luck shadowkat!!!!!!!!! -- Sara, rooting loudly, fingers crossed saying "Go Girl! Go!", 20:09:26 06/02/03 Mon

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Thanks Sara, I may need it. And promise I'll finish Perfume ;-) -- s'kat, 20:41:37 06/02/03 Mon

Hopefully before the week is out. I'm on page. 141 now.
Grenouille is living the life of a hermit on a volcano.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> hey, good luck! let us know! (i know you will!) -- anom, 22:17:16 06/02/03 Mon

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Thinking good thoughts! -- ponygirl, also with the crossed fingers, 07:15:41 06/03/03 Tue

Hey sk, did you read the David Fury interview at City of Angel? Lots of good stuff on directing the actors, JM in particular.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Yep. Agree. Great interview. & Thanks -- s'kat, 07:30:22 06/03/03 Tue

Also caught the one in Dreamwatch that's transcribed on Spoiler Trollops.

The one in City of Angel - is getting some interesting responses on the boards. Fury apparently states that the scene in LMPTM between Giles and Buffy at the very end of the episode - was intended to show Buffy had finally wisely
excluded Giles from her personal life but not the life of the mission. That Giles had nothing more to teach her, she had grown past him. This enraged several fans. Didn't bug
me since it supported my somewhat controversial post on Authority figures. ;-)

Fury's interesting. A frustrated actor who makes his living
writing. He came from the stage and appreciates the craft.
Worthwhile article to read - if you haven't. You can find the url on www.slayage.com.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> You're not wrong -- Valheru, 23:10:44 06/02/03 Mon

Great post! A few quasi-corrections, though.

JM says he "failed miserably" as Cordelia. It didn't work so the writers changed directions. The WRITERS (not JM) had to really bend Spike's character to fit him into the Scoobies - first with the chip.

I think you've got this backwards. JM did an amazing job as the Cordelia in "Becoming" and "Lover's Walk". In "The Harsh Light of Day" and then "In the Dark", he was more of a straightforward enemy, so no Cordyesque role for him to play. Then he went directly into Chipped Spike in "The Initiative". So unless they scrapped a Cordelia role for Spike in "THLOD", it appears as though his chipping was planned all along, not dictated by JM's lack of, ahem, Charisma. That had to have come afterwards.

Recent interviews with JM also suggest that the AR scene was much more violent and intense than intended because JM got freaked out due to his own abhorrence of violence against women.

There was actually a more practical reason. JM, until that point, had always played Spike in method. But he was afraid that doing the AR in method would freak Sarah out (hell, it would freak anyone out). So he tried to act the scene as out-of-character as possible. Basically, what they filmed wasn't Spike trying to rape Buffy, it was James trying to not rape Sarah. In order to compensate for the lack of intensity in the acting, they decided to make it appear more violent. Quantity over quality.

And, IIRC, "Seeing Red" was the last time James played Spike in method. For the rest of S6, he couldn't be completely method because Joss wouldn't tell him what he was supposed to be doing, and at the start of S7, Spike's insanity was impossible to act in method. He said he finally gave up trying to use method in "Beneath You" because Crazy Spike was influencing how he acted off the set.

Spike makes everyone crazy.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Good points...a little clarification -- s'kat, 07:20:30 06/03/03 Tue

Just a few quibbles/additions. Although I largely agree. ;-)

I think you've got this backwards. JM did an amazing job as the Cordelia in "Becoming" and "Lover's Walk". In "The Harsh Light of Day" and then "In the Dark", he was more of a straightforward enemy, so no Cordyesque role for him to play. Then he went directly into Chipped Spike in "The Initiative". So unless they scrapped a Cordelia role for Spike in "THLOD", it appears as though his chipping was planned all along, not dictated by JM's lack of, ahem, Charisma. That had to have come afterwards.

Uhm he wasn't Cordelia in either Becoming or Lover's Walk - we had her in both those episodes. And Cordy was never like
the way Spike was in Lover's Walk or Becoming, at least as far as I can remember. Although the writers may have seem a resemblance to the character of Cordelia and this may be the reason they attempted to make him like her in S4.

Valid attempts were made to make him Cordelesque in the S4 episodes Pangs, Doomed, Hush, Where The Wild Things Are, This Years' Girl, The I in Team, which if you look at his actions in the light of that character - they make a lot of sense,...they gave up finally in New Moon Rising. As JM put it - bit hard to be the snarky neighbor when you're a vampire and can't be out in the sunshine. It got a bit old having him run around with a blanket over his head all the time.

There was actually a more practical reason. JM, until that point, had always played Spike in method. But he was afraid that doing the AR in method would freak Sarah out (hell, it would freak anyone out). So he tried to act the scene as out-of-character as possible. Basically, what they filmed wasn't Spike trying to rape Buffy, it was James trying to not rape Sarah. In order to compensate for the lack of intensity in the acting, they decided to make it appear more violent. Quantity over quality.

True. Also, he didn't get the scene until literally the very last minute. Marti Noxon who came up with it - based it on her own experience in college where she tried to convince someone to continue their relationship. (I think the Faith/Xander attempted rape scene in Consequences - may be closer in some ways to MArti's and is a perfect example of why it looks different when it's a woman. Many viewers were turned on by Faith attempting to rape and kill Xander.) It's also important to note, here, btw, that the actor, James Marsters, habitually turns down roles that involve hurting women or children. Especially any scene clearly showing rape or attempted rape. He only agrees to play them if his character is killed immediately afterwards - which he did once on stage. He states in interviews that he can't watch these scenes on tv or in movies. And will literally turn down any role requesting it of him. Unfortunately in television - actors have no idea what they will be asked to play ahead of time and are contractually obligated to play the role as written for them. This is something that really upset James - the idea that he could be contractually obligated to hurt someone, a fellow actor he cared for. So he went out of his way in that scene to let Sara know he wasn't going to. He didn't play it method. He went out-of-character between takes. And the result was what we saw on screen. Professional actors who were posting on the boards at the time - stated that it was an example of exemplary acting from the two actors and admired the scene as one of the best they'd seen, they also mentioned how incredibly difficult it would have been to pull off as an actor. SR is an example of a scene that the actor, JM, did not want to do. And it still haunts him.

Spike is by no means an easy role to play, the fact that it can look fun and easy to play to viewers - is a tribute to the actor.

And, IIRC, "Seeing Red" was the last time James played Spike in method. For the rest of S6, he couldn't be completely method because Joss wouldn't tell him what he was supposed to be doing, and at the start of S7, Spike's insanity was impossible to act in method. He said he finally gave up trying to use method in "Beneath You" because Crazy Spike was influencing how he acted off the set.

Good points. He did however do method all the way up to Beneath You - according to interviews. And it almost drove him nuts. He stopped in Beneath You - because after raking himself over the coals to do the scene as Doug Petrie wrote it, Whedon came out and asked him to re-do the scene about two hours later as Whedon wrote it. JM describes coming back to the set, spent, and struggling to do it again.

For a full accounting of this from a recent JM interview
go to Spoiler Trollops - they have the complete interview transcribed over there. I transcribed parts of it for the archives. It can also be read in the OFficial Buffy Magazine, issue 8.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Jinx! We are thinking along similar lines. -- curious, 07:36:40 06/03/03 Tue

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: You're not wrong -- curious, 07:27:23 06/03/03 Tue

I think you've got this backwards. JM did an amazing job as the Cordelia in "Becoming" and "Lover's Walk". In "The Harsh Light of Day" and then "In the Dark", he was more of a straightforward enemy, so no Cordyesque role for him to play. Then he went directly into Chipped Spike in "The Initiative". So unless they scrapped a Cordelia role for Spike in "THLOD", it appears as though his chipping was planned all along, not dictated by JM's lack of, ahem, Charisma. That had to have come afterwards.

Those were JM's words in the Season 4 DVD commentary - not mine. He was referring to making the character more of an insider with the Scoobies after chipping. He said the fact that he had to run around with a smoking blanket all the time and/or couldn't be around during the day was a big problem. I think he was "Cordelia" in "Pangs" through maybe "A New Man". They tried to make him a reluctant semi-Scoobie post-chipping and turned him into more of a whacky neighbor and semi-enemy working with Adam and eventually a Scoobie ally in Season 5 - but not really a Scoobie. It might have been funny to see the Xander/Spike odd couple relationship develop but they decided not to make him as much of an insider with the Scoobies. Anya filled that role.

I'll have to think about your comments about the AR. That's not exactly how I read the interview but it makes sense. I also read that JM gave up method for his own mental health in Season 7. It will be interesting to see what he does on AtS.

Here's part of the quote from the article "Blood Ambition" from Buffy the Vampire Slayer Magazine ñ Vol 1, No. 48, July 2003.

"Unlike many screen sexual assaults, the scene was played not as though Spikeís actions were premeditated or deliberately hostile, but rather as though he was too lost in his emotions to fully comprehend what he was doing until Buffy kicked him across the room. îIt was written very carefully. But I was more freaked out about the scene than I should have been, and I think that freaked Sarah out, and then I, as the character, reacted to her freaking out and that dynamic kind of fed on itself. I think that it ended up being a much more aggressive and violent scene than we intended. I think there was an attempt to keep it from being that painful, but it played that way and so we have to deal with it. See, this is what happens when you are brave artistically. You set fires. And some of the fires burn hotter than you expected. Buffy is very brave about the risks we take, and that one burned us. At the same time, Iím kind of glad we did it. I was not glad that I had to do it, but it puts us in an interesting place.î "

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> love -- Dandy, 14:06:40 06/02/03 Mon

Yes, humans get themselves involved in a lot of relationships I would not qualify as love.

I see love as something purer and transcendent so I do not believe that every couple who is in a sexual relationship is in a love relationship.

I do not think JM played Spike exactly as directed or went against what was directed. I believe that JM and the creative team of ME discussed various things. He tried various things that the writers liked and were inspired by. I believe his acting influenced the writing. I think there was a collaborative process there. ME liked what it was seeing the actor do so let him do it.

There is a Succubus Club interview done with David Fury right after the attempted rape episode aired that supports this. When asked whether the writers saw how sympathetically Spike was coming across and why they let it happen, he replied that they saw it but would say oh, that's such a nice Spike and Buffy moment and went with it.

Recently in the City of Angel interview David Fury said that JM was always into talking and working on his scenes, never in a hurry to finish. Joss Whedon and JM have talked about one of the pivotal moments in the development of the musical episode being a party at Joss house where Joss started to play a song he wrote and JM grabbed a guitar and accompanied him, encouraged him. JM has said that this let to a cross-polination of ideas between artists. JM has had his own theater companies and says he tries to be the kind of actor he would like to employ. I point out these examples to show that JM is a collaborative artist who extends himself to the creative process. He has also written. He is older and far more experienced than most of the actors on the show having done theater for years. The rehearsal process for theater allows and encourages more exploration between actor and director than film. As a Shakespearean actor he has,of necesiity, an analytical mind.

Having done some acting and directing myself I can see what he is bringing to the interpretation of his character but I can understand this not being obvious to a lot of viewers. maybe the thing that really showed me this was going to acting class and seeing other students do a scene I was working on and seeing how different it could be. How they interpreted it in ways I never would have though of. Actors come up with ideas and very actor has thier own unique presence. For a small example of this see Marti Noxon's I Only Have Eyes for You. Each set of actors brings a slightly different flavor to the scene between the ghost lovers.
Another example, off the top of my head is Naomi Watts in Mullholland Drive. She is an actress who rehearses a scene with her roomate. Later we see her audition for the part and the difference is astounding. What she does in her audition goes totally against the text. This is a great example of the input an actor can have.
I think other actors like Michelle Tractenberg and Sarah Michelle Gellar go and do thier scenes 'as directed' without analyzing the text very much and the rest fall on a spectrum with JM being the most analytical of text.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Oh, dear. Double post. How did one get a different name?? -- Dandy, 15:07:22 06/02/03 Mon

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Very interesting -- curious, 18:55:01 06/02/03 Mon

I think that what make Spike so much more compelling as a character than Buffy was that his redemption came from within. We could see him struggling and trying. We could root for him. Buffy's journey is about accepting her burden, living within its constraints. Buffy could not free herself from within. Her emancipation had to come from without in the form of sharing her power, destroying the hellmouth

I like this a lot. hmm.....

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Very interesting -- ponygirl, 08:56:41 06/03/03 Tue

It is interesting. Are we drawn to characters that we perceive as being involved in their own transformation? It seems more appealing - this idea that we can change our circumstances and our selves - because it suggests a certain amount of control. Power over ourselves. Acceptance, on the other hand, might be a more useful lesson, but it's not one our culture seems to value as much. That's not to say that Buffy's story wasn't about change, but it seemed to concern the transformation/subversion of an entire power structure. It reminds me of Laura Miller's article in Salon about BtVs changing the heroic model - Buffy made her story about the community rather than the individual. However, it's still easier to relate to one person rather than a group.

[> Up for interpretation -- lunasea, 07:09:40 06/01/03 Sun

But why would Joss leave such a scene up for interpretation, when he made a point of making sure the previous one wasn't?

What changed that would cause Buffy to sleep with Spike when she didn't the previous night? If it was the standard, traditional pre-Apocalyptic Scoobie night of passion, that is pretty lame. There is nothing from the previous scenes to indicate any sort of change that would lead to getting fleshy.

[> [> Speculation spoiler for Chosen above -- lunasea, 07:10:46 06/01/03 Sun

[> I can't find Lunasea's original post. Where is it? -- rowena, 07:27:35 06/01/03 Sun

[> [> Re: I can't find Lunasea's original post. Archive ate it -- sdev, 08:04:23 06/01/03 Sun

The post is in the vampirical Archive 1. My post got eaten in less than 12 hours.

[> Re: Follow up to lunasea (Spoiler for Chosen and WKCS Angel S5) -- Alison, 12:15:08 06/01/03 Sun

I think this scene is supposed to keep us wondering...forever. We may find out what happened when Spike appears on Angel- but I doubt it. Personally, I think Joss was just trying to drive us crazy. That's the only reason I can see for this scene. It will probably bother me until the day I die--or at least until they day I kidnap Joss and make him tell me.

[> [> We each get to imagine what we want. -- curious, 13:07:21 06/01/03 Sun

Personally, I think they made gentle "Sarah McLachlan" love. Under normal circumstances, they still needed a little more time (or would have decided not to be lovers) but under the extraordinary circumstances - I like to imagine that it was more meaningful and healing than "Apocalypse sex" but not quite long-term relationship sex. I'd like to see them end up as close friends/former lovers and move on to other relationships. (I sure hope so. We don't need lots of pining for Buffy when Spike goes to AtS.)

I like that it was open-ended. B/A shippers can argue and imagine what they want. B/S shippers can argue and imagine what they want. For those who aren't interested in the ships - no screen time was taken. For those who are still concerned about the AR - it is still vague enough to argue that they will never be lovers again. I think it was the perfect note to end on.

[> [> [> Agreed. I think the same. -- s'kat, 14:26:32 06/01/03 Sun

[> [> [> [> Re: Agreed. I think the same. But... -- sdev, 19:56:40 06/01/03 Sun

I donít think Spike only wanted sex in Season 6. That was all Buffy allowed him, and he settled for it. He made many comments about her leaving immediately after sex, about their failure to converse, about what did this relationship mean to her. He asked heróìdo you even like me?î Buffy restricted their interaction to sex only. Even before they had sex, at the beginning of Tabula Rasa he wanted to discuss what their kissing meant. Again at the beginning of Smashed he wanted to discuss their kissing. Buffy refused to discuss their kissing or dismissed it as meaningless. Even at the end of Smashed, he kept talking about what was going on between them until she finally grabbed him.

I canít help but be stricken by the stereotypical behavior in reverse- typically the woman wants to discuss the meaning of the relationship and the man wants to bail. (I apologize, but I did label it a stereotype).

Although a relationship without sex can be very close and meaningful, it is not the same as a close, meaningful relationship with sex. Without the sex it is like Buffy, Xander and Willow- platonic. Angel and Buffy, although they could not consummate, was never platonic just repressed. The sexual charge was always there.

With Spike and Buffy I never really know what Buffyís feelings are at the end- sexual love or platonic love. (Spike's desire for a loving, sexual relationship is apparent.) Even the scene in End of Days when Spike says ìWere you there?î and Buffy answers ìI was,î is left ambiguous by Buffyís next reply. Spike wants to know what that means and Buffy answers she doesnít know. Spike accepts that but not comfortably. Clearly he is looking for some further statement of her feelings which she canít or wonít give. All of this is made more ambiguous by Buffyís kissing Angel moments later.

I agree it was left open so that B/A and B/S shippers could each have their illusions, but I resent that. I felt manipulated not artistically intrigued. I think there should have been a more straightforward statement, not a commercially motivated catering to all fans. I did not need to be hit over the head; a single tongueless kiss or gesture would have sufficed.

As to the scene where they looked at each other across the room, I have no good explanation for that. It seemed devoid of sexual tension to me. So once again I feel like critical pieces were deliberately omitted.

I do hope that Spike moves on when he goes to AtS.

[> [> [> [> [> Another way to look at it -- curious, 08:48:01 06/02/03 Mon

With Spike and Buffy I never really know what Buffyís feelings are at the end- sexual love or platonic love.

I don't think she knew either. I don't think she was ready to acknowledege her feelings completely. And there really wasn't time to let things play out. The closest we got to a peek at her feelings was her conversation with Angel. i.e. He's not my boyfriend but... he's in my heart. Can't deny or confirm whether or not she's in love with Spike. And she chose SPIKE as her champion. She spent what could have been the last three nights of her life with Spike - that speaks volumes and doesn't really need to be spelled out. She didn't sleep with Xander or Dawn in a cozy non-sexual way. She slept with Spike.

And, if they had gotten together and had another season - ME would have ripped them apart ASAP. I hate to think what they would have done to us!!!

I read a review somewhere that mentioned how appropriate it was that this moment was private. The B/S relationship was so public to us as viewers, their final time alone was MORE romantic and intimate because it was completely between them and the audience was left to fill in the blanks. Maybe she loves him and he doesn't believe it. Maybe she isn't good for him and he needs a chance to love someone else and grow beyond his fixation with her. Maybe her fixation with Angel will always get in the way of her other relationships. Maybe, maybe, maybe. I love it. It was a very elegant way to make a subtle statement without using a lot of screen time.

It also leaves open lots of possiblilities for next season. At the time this ep was written, no one knew if Spike/JM was going on to a spin-off, Angel, or a brown-haired movie career. No one knows if SMG will be able or willing to make guest appearances, etc. Like it or not - those realities had to be considered.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Another way to look at it-you make a good case -- sdev, 09:44:29 06/02/03 Mon

"The B/S relationship was so public to us as viewers, their final time alone was MORE romantic and intimate because it was completely between them and the audience was left to fill in the blanks."

Well said. But the commercial realities part seems to relate more to ratings than future moves. I mean this is the writing group that raises the dead,repeatedly, and also reinsouls, wipes out memories, etc.

[> [> [> [> [> [> I like that ME left it open. I hope real life lets them explore the A/B/S relationships further. -- Dandy, 11:59:22 06/02/03 Mon

[> [> [> [> [> [> Wonderful. Yes agree again. -- s'kat, 20:39:35 06/02/03 Mon

And, if they had gotten together and had another season - ME would have ripped them apart ASAP. I hate to think what they would have done to us!!!

Exactly. In a television show like Btvs and Ats - characters are not allowed to be happy, no when the principal conflict is their relationship. It's our fault really. Well, not ours specifically, but you know what I mean. The highest ratings Btvs gets are when there's relationship angst. The lowest when the characters are happy and lovey dovey. The writers tried to give Buffy a happy relationship - first with Angel in early s2 and then with Riley and the fans got bored and switched channels. Let's face it - audiences are sadistic creatures - they like to watch pain and suffering on the screen. LOL!.

I read a review somewhere that mentioned how appropriate it was that this moment was private. The B/S relationship was so public to us as viewers, their final time alone was MORE romantic and intimate because it was completely between them and the audience was left to fill in the blanks. Maybe she loves him and he doesn't believe it. Maybe she isn't good for him and he needs a chance to love someone else and grow beyond his fixation with her. Maybe her fixation with Angel will always get in the way of her other relationships. Maybe, maybe, maybe. I love it. It was a very elegant way to make a subtle statement without using a lot of screen time.

Also agree. I think making their last moments together intimate and private and not seen by us, was one of the best choices Whedon made in Chosen. Subtlety and shorthand
are rare to find in TV. My mother who watched and liked the last episode mentioned how nice it was not to have every single thing spelled out for her, to have the moments left to our imagination. Too many tv shows treat their audiences
like idiots, thank god there's a few that don't.

Agree on the rest that you posted as well. Suffice it to say, curious, you and I seem to see eye-to-eye on the B/S relationship and mostly on Spike.

sk

Current board | June 2003