May 2003 posts
Your
Favorite television couples -- 110v3w1110w, 15:01:08 05/25/03
Sun
who are you top 3 favorite couples from TV shows past and present
and why ? mine are as follows :-
1. Willow and Tara but i can't put my finger on why it just seemed
so right
2.Dr. Niles Crane and Daphne Moon. Niles danced around her for
so long and looked like he totaly blew any chance with her when
they were both getting married to other people i was so relived
when they got it together. not a reason why i liked them but it
sort of portrayed the unfaithful husband in a sympathetic light.
3.hmmm this is a tough one and it was never made clear if they
were an actual couple but i think Xena and Gabrielle because they
went through a lot so for sheer endurace they are at number three.
[> Re: Your Favorite television
couples -- PurpleMarrow, 17:54:54 05/25/03 Sun
Great Question!
I'll second Willow and Tara. They seemed to be right for each
other, even when they were having all of their problems.
At the top of the list I would have to put John Steed and Emma
Peel. Even as a non-couple couple, they had more chemistry and
sparks than the couples on any other TV show. It was in everything
they said or did. It was such a perfect match that I'll count
it as two.
[> [> Re: Your Favorite
television couples -- Rook, 18:23:01 05/25/03 Sun
Willow/Oz: Cutest couple ever
Spike/Dru: Great twisted chemistry.
Frank Burns/Hotlips Houlihan: When M*A*S*H was doing what it did
best
Lucy/Desi: Because you could tell there was a real relationship
beyond the characters.
Basil/Sybil Fawlty: Because John Cleese is hilarious.
Not exactly "couples" but...
LaForge/Data: Brent Spiner is like the James Marsters of ST: great
chemistry with everyone. But the bantering friendship scenes with
LaForge always ring true.
Buffy/Xander: Probably the most honest portrayal of a Male/Female
friendship.
Sam Beckett/Al Calavicci: The firendship/subverted father/son
relationship is what made the show work for as long as it did.
With no other regulars, the two actors had to develop a depth
of relationship that otherwise wouldn't have been necessary, and
the two eefinitely rose to the task.
[> Peter Wimsey and Harriet
Vane -- cougar, 18:13:16 05/25/03 Sun
as played by Edward Petherbridge and Harriet Walters, it was sublime
and I've never recovered.
Beyond Buffy couples and Niles and Daphnae I loved Asumpta Fitzgerald
and Peter Clifford on Ballykissangel. (Did not like how it was
resolved however.)
Also Lizzy and Mr. Darcy in Pride and Predjudice. Colin Firth
has THE most smoldering eyes and hers are so bright and dancing.
I also liked the two young people on Flambards. Don't know if
anyone will have seen that.
[> [> Re: Peter Wimsey
and Harriet Vane -- Rufus, 00:13:56 05/26/03 Mon
Flambards is one of my favorite series from the PBS...now which
guy who was with Christine to you mean...William....Dick.....or
the one she ended the story with Mark?
[> [> I remember Flambards!
-- Dead Soul, 00:22:36 05/26/03 Mon
I still even sometimes get the whistled theme stuck in my head.
[> [> [> let me sing
you the song of Christina... -- cougar, 09:19:29 05/26/03
Mon
Wow two souls who know it.! This site continues to suprise me,
and Rufus, well we have some alternate topics ;o)
I liked her with the young pilot with the gimpy leg. I knew he
was going to die though, when the theme song said Christina was
"someone who's been through the woods and the trees."
they weren't talking about a stoll through the grounds. I haven't
seen it in years though! It just leaped into my mind as I wrote
the post.
It waw so innocent too. I mean I love Spuffy stuff (which I guess
led to innocence eventually) but I guess I'm just a sucker for
when human decency prevails.
Mostly I loved how she always brought what little love there was
around her into being, rather than retreating into a shell, and
the way she brought her femine element to the world of Flambards.
[> [> [> [> Oh,
my God, someone else who remembers Flambards! -- Rhysdux,
11:14:13 05/26/03 Mon
[> Re: Your Favorite television
couples -- Laura, 18:28:21 05/25/03 Sun
Hmmm... I'm hopelessly stuck in Jossverse so excuse me for my
choice of couples.
1. Willow/Tara -At first I was rather surprised by them (I was
younger) but they won me over. After a while I was dumbstruck
when Tara got killed.
2. Buffy/Angel -Sorry Spuffy fans. I have nothing against you,
but I'm allowed to dream, right?
3. Gunn/Fred -They were so cute together, plus Gunn is hot.
[> Willow/Tara and Xander/Anya
are tied for my all-time faves. -- Rob, 19:47:51 05/25/03
Sun
[> [> Re: My 3 hot Couples
-- Brian, 20:46:12 05/25/03 Sun
Nick and Nora Charles from the Thin Man movies (William Powell
and Myrna Loy). Married couple who actually liked each other.
Bobby and Diane from NYPD Blue - A relationship so hot, it burned
the viewer
Maddy and David from Moonlighting - Oh, how right, and Oh, how
wrong
[> [> [> Re: My 3
hot Couples -- Malandanza, 20:57:00 05/25/03 Sun
I agree with two of your choices -- Nick and Nora were the perfect
couple and David and Maddy were the great modern version of Beatrice
and Benedict. I never saw NYPD Blues, so can't comment on Bobby
and Diane. For my third choice, though, it has to Moulder and
Scully (I'm a big fan of unrequited love).
[> [> [> Hot Hot Hot!
-- LeeAnn, 04:02:08 05/26/03 Mon
I agree about the Nick and Nora Charles..they made being married
look like fun.
On Buffy Season 6 Anya/Xander was the sweetest.
But Season 6 Spuffy was the hottest...from AfterLife to OMWF to
Tabula Rasa thru the kinkiness of Smashed, Wrecked, Gone, Dead
Things and As You Were. HOT HOT HOT. In a dark and dysfunctional
way, of course.
[> [> [> [> Willow
and Oz -- Dandy, 07:59:58 05/26/03 Mon
Definitely Nick and Nora are my favorite couple ever.
I also love David and Maddie.
For Buffy I loved Angel and Buffy for romance, Spike and Buffy
for sex and Willow and Oz for the goodness of that relationship.
I just loved those two together.
[> John Crichton and Aeryn
Sun -- Sofdog, 22:38:38 05/25/03 Sun
Followed by Sidney Bristow and Michael Vaughn.
[> W/T, W/O, W/Fred, B/S,
Peel/Steed and Avon/Servalan -- Indri, sometimes stretching
the definition of 'couple', 22:50:18 05/25/03 Sun
[> Onslow and Daisy (from
Keeping up Apearances) -- CW, 21:30:14 05/26/03 Mon
[> [> Oh come on, Rose
and the Vicar were way hotter!!! -- cougar, 00:04:19 05/27/03
Tue
[> [> [> Re: Oh come
on, Rose and the Vicar were way hotter!!! -- CW, 06:57:18
05/27/03 Tue
What do you mean, hotter? Heck, Daisy is just as crazy about Onslow
as Rose is about the rest of the male half of humanity, and a
lot more desperate! Onslow, on the other hand, can drink beer
and nap with the best of them. ;o)
How did if
end? (Comparing / ranking Season finale arcs from Seasons 1-7)
(long) -- Just George, 01:07:31 05/26/03 Mon
In the run up to the series finale, I posted some thoughts on
the finale arcs for each season. Now that BTVS is all over, I
decided to revisit my post and flesh out the ideas. I defined
the finale arc as those episodes near the end of the season that
resolve the central conflicts of the season.
Some arcs are interrupted by filler episodes. I think filler can
defuse some of the energy of the final arc. My wife likes the
emotional breather that an occasional filler episode provides.
All quotes are from Psyche's transcripts.
Without further ado, on to the finale arcs in reverse order of
"crunchy goodness" (IMHO):
Number 7: Season 4
Adam: "But how can you . . ?
Willow / Giles / Xander: "You could never hope to grasp the
source -
Buffy: "- of our power."
Buffy: "But yours is right here."
75 New Moon Rising
76 The Yoko Factor
77 Primeval
The emotional core of the finale arc was the Scoobies vs. each
other. This is the first time the Scoobies split up and then come
together in time to defeat to the bad guy. It wouldn't be the
last.
Part of the weakness of this particular emotional arc was the
simplicity of the solution. All the Scoobies had to do to reconcile
was admit they had a problem and take responsibility for causing
it. The reconciliation scene was fun, but simplistic. The shallowness
of this plot device is clear when examining the reconciliation.
Remember how hard it was to deal with the emotional baggage between
Buffy and Faith or Buffy and Angel. Those confrontations took
months, in some cases years, to work through. Notice, how easy
it was to deal with the after effects of the Big Scooby Rift.
One episode later all was forgiven.
This final arc was also less satisfying than others because it
was never clear what Adam's big plan was (beyond creating a hundred
or so cyber demons). The stakes were much less in Season 4 than
in other seasons, Adam was raising an army, not destroying the
world.
Also the finale arc ended before the season did. The actual final
episode, Restless, was great, but it was only perpetually connected
to the emotional theme of the finale arc.
In terms of impact the finale included several scenes with great
production values. The giant fight between the demons and the
Initiative soldiers was the biggest action set piece BTVS ever
did (until the Season7 finale). The ritual to merge the Scoobies
into uber-slayer Buffy was complex and satisfying (as opposed
to the perfunctory ritual Willow used to share the Slayer power
in Season 7). The final confrontation, where uber-slayer Buffy
smacks Adam down hard, was effects filled and fun. Visually and
mythically the finale was fun. Emotionally it was hollow.
Number 6: Season 6
Dawn: "I... think it's over, Buffy. We're all still here."
Buffy: crying.
Dawn: "Sorry to disappoint you. (beat) Wait. Is that happy
crying?"
Buffy: "Yes, dummy! You think I wanted the world to end?"
Dawn: "I don't know. Didn't you?"
119 Seeing Red
120 Villains
121 Two to Go
122 Grave
The central emotional conflict in Season 6 was Buffy vs. her depression.
However, she never actually overcomes her depression (as Dark
Willow clearly points out in Two to Go). Also, Buffy's string
of epiphanies earlier in the season reduce the impact of her final
scene with Dawn.
In terms of impact, Dark Willow is insufficiently foreshadowed
to be a satisfying big bad. She appeared from nowhere in the last
few episodes of the season. The Buffy vs. Willow fight was well
choreographed, but Buffy didn't really want to hurt Willow and
that reduced the fight's emotional intensity. However, the overall
destruction of the Magic Box over two episodes was impressive.
Plot wise the finale arc is coherent with no interruptions and
some exciting action scenes. Some of the effects (like the temple
and end of the world effects) were less than convincing. Certain
character actions (Spike's assault on Buffy, his quest for a soul,
and Willow's attempt to end the world) seemed more plot driven
than logical extensions of the character's previous actions. I
give the writers two out of three on this score (OK with Spike,
dubious on Willow). The finale arc was well plotted, but emotionally
it was incomplete and unsatisfying.
My order of the 5th - 3rd finale arcs change from day to day for
me. Tomorrow they may be different. For today they are:
Number 5: Season 5
Buffy ANNE SUMMERS
1981-2001
Beloved SISTER
Devoted FRIEND
She SAVED THE WORLD
A LOT
96 Intervention
97 Tough Love
98 Spiral
99 The Weight of the World
100 The Gift
The emotional conflict in this arc lacks focus. Is it Buffy vs.
Glory? Buffy vs. herself ? Buff's responsibilities to the world
vs. her responsibilities to her sister? It is all of these, though
none are presented strongly enough to feel like the overriding
emotional focus.
In terms of impact, the final fight between Buffy and Glory was
a bang up combat combining powerful martial arts and some fun
special effects and environments. The plot of the finale arc was
well constructed, with no interruptions, though "The Weight
of the World" was a particularly weak episode. The final
episode is very strong, and Buffy's final sacrifice and the image
of her headstone were wrenching. This would have been a satisfying
series finale.
Number 4: Season 1
Buffy: " I don't care! I don't care. Giles, I'm sixteen years
old. I don't wanna die."
12 Prophecy Girl
The central emotional conflict is Buffy vs. her responsibilities.
Compared to the modern multi-episode finales this single hour
is way too short. However I like to think the conflicts were concentrated
and effectively realized. Great lines abound. The twist where
everyone misinterprets the prophesy (which turns out to be true
in every particular) was very clever.
In terms of impact, both of Buffy's battles with The Master are
simplistic and short compared to later BTVS combats. The student
remains in the A/V room raise the stakes appropriately. Buffy's
re-animation is shocking and cheer-worthy. While the production
values pale in comparison to future episodes, the Season 1 finale
was emotionally satisfying.
Number 3: Season 7
Buffy: "Are you ready to be strong?"
140 Dirty Girls
141 Empty Places
142 Touched
143 End of Days
144 Chosen
The central emotional conflict in Season 7 is Buffy vs. her doubts
about herself. This conflict was paced too slowly for about half
the season, but the pacing in the last five episodes is uninterrupted
and well done. Faith's appearance adds a lot of emotional power
to the finale arc, and Buffy's emotional arc is well paced and
satisfying. Each episode has a particularly strong ending. The
final "empowering" twist is very well done. A lot of
plot threads were left open and the final plans (both by The First
and by Buffy) seem weakly realized.
In terms of impact, Buffy's fight scenes with Calib are not particularly
well done (Calib never looks convincing when he "misses").
The Buffy/Angle/Spike triangle is well handled. Sunnydale falling
into the Hellmouth is perhaps the strongest apocalyptic image
in the BTVS history. The group's final triumph is emotionally
satisfying and a fitting conclusion to the series.
Number 2nd: Season 3
Faith: "You know you're not going to take me alive."
Buffy: "Not a problem."
Faith: "Well, look at you. All dressed up in big sister's
clothes."
51 Enemies
52 Choices
54 Graduation Part One
55 Graduation Part Two
The central emotional conflict of Season 3 is Buffy vs. Faith
(or Buffy vs. Buffy's shadow self). From that POV, the finale
arc emotionally peaks one episode too early. The final arc is
slightly disjointed because it contains a filler episode (The
Prom) that interrupts the narrative flow. However, the Prom is
a fine episode and gives the audience a breather before the big
finish. The four remaining episodes are all strong, though not
as strong as the final episodes in Season 2.
In terms of impact, Buffy vs. Faith is on a short list of the
best fights in BTVS history. The Mayor as a giant snake was not
the most convincing special effect and the final fight is more
fun than it is amazing. Angel's departure always seemed forced,
more a plot point to free him for his own series than a reasonable
outgrowth of his previous actions. Overall, the finale arc is
fun and the final outcome of the Buffy vs. Faith confrontation
is emotionally satisfying.
Number 1: Season 2
Angelus: "Now that's everything, huh? No weapons... No friends...
No hope. Take all that away... and what's left?"
Buffy: "Me."
29 Passion
31 I Only Have Eyes for You
33 Becoming Part One
34 Becoming Part Two
The central emotional conflict of Season 2 is Buffy vs. Angelus.
The final arc is somewhat disjointed because two filler episodes
(Killed By Death and Go Fish) interrupt the narrative flow. However
the remaining 4 episodes are all so strong that they overcome
most of the pacing problems.
In terms of impact, Buffy killing resouled Angel to save the world
is on a short list of the most powerful emotional moments in BTVS
history. The ending moments (both the sword thrust and the bus
ride) are heartbreaking. Season 2 was BTVS at its most operatic.
So there it is, my take on the season finale arcs. I have to say,
that having pondered all these episodes, I think I'll go back
and watch them all over again. They all have great elements. And
they all help embody the things I love about BTVS.
Thanks!
-JG
[> Good post- some personal
quibbles -- Tchaikovsky, 08:15:17 05/26/03 Mon
Season Four
Part of the weakness of this particular emotional arc was
the simplicity of the solution. All the Scoobies had to do to
reconcile was admit they had a problem and take responsibility
for causing it. The reconciliation scene was fun, but simplistic.
The shallowness of this plot device is clear when examining the
reconciliation. Remember how hard it was to deal with the emotional
baggage between Buffy and Faith or Buffy and Angel. Those confrontations
took months, in some cases years, to work through. Notice, how
easy it was to deal with the after effects of the Big Scooby Rift.
One episode later all was forgiven.
I agree with your analysis- but I think there was a very important
reason why the reconciliation was relatively simple. Namely, that
unlike Angel and Faith's very complicated relationships with Buffy,
the core four never really had any actions or personality changes
tearing them apart. Throughout the year, Buffy, Willow, Xander
and Giles slowly drift apart, as the externality keeping them
so tightly together throughout the pervious three years, High
School, has been taken away. Xander feels a little isoltaed from
the collegiates in 'Doomed'. Giles is annoyed by not being told
about Riley's link to The Initiative in 'A New Man'. Willow is
loth to tell Buffy about Tara immediately, as she would have done
without thought about Oz in Season Two. But this drifting is rather
superficial- carelessness, not a genuine rift. In fact, Spike's
exploitation of the rift in 'The Yoko Factor' only helped to how
the Scoobies how much they had been neglecting their most important
relationships, so that the reconciliation in 'Primeval' was of
necessity simple. That was the nature of the breakdown, and hence
the make up was waiting to happen.
Also the finale arc ended before the season did. The actual
final episode, Restless, was great, but it was only perpetually
connected to the emotional theme of the finale arc.
I don't really see 'Restless' as a part of Season Four, more a
work of singular genius distended into its own little slot right
in the middle of the Buffy mythology, (a similar accusation has
been levelled at 'Home' for Angel, which makes me even more fascinated
by whatever's going in in that episode.
Season Six
The central emotional conflict in Season 6 was Buffy vs.
her depression. However, she never actually overcomes her depression
(as Dark Willow clearly points out in Two to Go). Also, Buffy's
string of epiphanies earlier in the season reduce the impact of
her final scene with Dawn.
I think I might argue you've inadvertently answered your own quibble
here. Buffy hasn't overcome her depression by 'Two To Go', but
her experience with Dawn overcomes it in 'Grave'. Because Dawn,
after Buffy, almost in desperation, hands her the sword, empowers
herself, allowing Buffy to realise how she has been wrong with
her aim of protection of Dawn throughout the Season. In acknowledgin
what she's done wrong in her relationship with her younger, more
innocent self, she has enabled herself to re-engage in the wonder
of the world, the beauty of the arboretum, and finally re-engage
with life as a beautiful thing. Her previous epiphanies don't
lessen this realisation, because, as I've argued before, this
show is laced through with the need for multiple epiphanies. Buffy
re-gains parts of herself in 'Afterlife', 'Gone', 'As You Were'
and 'Seeing Red', but the final epiphany counts for all.
The finale arc was well plotted, but emotionally it was incomplete
and unsatisfying.
I think I'm in the minority and you're in the majority here, but
I disagree. I felt that there was a Big Bad of personal internal
struggles in Season Six, hinted at by the tranformation of Spike's
character form operating in a largely post-modern ethos to an
existential one. And each of the three most vivid externalisations
of the struggle were beaten in parallel in 'Grave'. Buffy overcame
her inability to interact well with Dawn, in the process winning
back her heart. Willow collapsed because of the force of love
as symbolised by Xander. And the ultimate malcontents, the people
who could not face the reality of the internal struggle, and yearned
after the post-modern loss of oneself in countless fantasies,
the Trio, were banished.
Season Five
Agree almost entirely here. I might quibble that all the conflicts
you suggest, Buffy v herself, her responsibilities to the world
vs her love for her sister and Buffy vs Glory are all symbolically
an expression of each other.
This would have been a satisfying series finale.
Agree, but imagine the vocal section of the fanbase who disliked
'Chosen' because of its unresolved plot-strands, and how they
would have reacted to this being the end of the journey!
Season One
Compared to the modern multi-episode finales this single
hour is way too short.
It would be too short for any of the other seasons, but I think
it's deadweight for a 12 episode Season in which at least 6 of
the episodes have nothing to do with the main arc. The resolution
seems appropriate to the Season, with the first real emotional
outcries form Buffy and Willow allowing the show to deepen itself
slightly, although with the interesting 'When She Was Bad', the
paradigm is deepened significantly further for the wonderful Season
Two.
Season Seven
I've loved what I've read of it, but haven't seen it yet, so will
withhold judgement here.
Season Three
The central emotional conflict of Season 3 is Buffy vs.
Faith (or Buffy vs. Buffy's shadow self). From that POV, the finale
arc emotionally peaks one episode too early.
An interesting point. I would claim that Buffy's dream sequence
with Faith in GDII, where Faith implicitly gives her the strength
to continue to fight, and we see that Buffy, despite her deep-seated
anger at Faith for how she represents her, still has a certain
complicity of vision, is an important step in the resolution of
the ties between them.
However, the Prom is a fine episode and gives the audience
a breather before the big finish.
'The Prom' gave me a breather? I barely breathed throughout the
whole thing, I wass far to busy crying at every other scene! While
I suppose it is strictly a filler episode, 'The Prom' is so extremely
importantly thematically linked to the events of the previous
and subsequent episodes that I didn't find it nearly as jolting
as the genuinely incongruous 'Go Fish' in Season Two.
The four remaining episodes are all strong, though not as strong
as the final episodes in Season 2.
Well those eight final episodes, shorn of the Polyfilla of 'Killed
By Death' and so on, represent eight of hte very best episodes
Mutant Enemy has ever put together. I prefer 'Becoming' to 'Graduation
Day', but would give the glorious 'Enemies'/'Choices' double bill
a slight edge over the also-marvellous 'Passion'/'I Only Have
Eyes For You'.
Season Two
Hear, hear.
Thanks for an interesting post JG.
TCH
[> [> Quibbling back
(Spoilers for all seasons in this and my first post) -- Just
George, 12:14:58 05/26/03 Mon
Season Four
TCH: "I agree with your analysis- but I think there was a
very important reason why the reconciliation was relatively simple.
Namely, that unlike Angel and Faith's very complicated relationships
with Buffy, the core four never really had any actions or personality
changes tearing them apart."
Agreed. I think the reconciliation was fair. I just mentioned
that the emotional stakes were lower in S4 than they were in S1-3
TCH: "I don't really see 'Restless' as a part of Season Four,
more a work of singular genius distended into its own little slot
right in the middle of the Buffy mythology, (a similar accusation
has been leveled at 'Home' for Angel, which makes me even more
fascinated by whatever's going in that episode."
Agree again. I'm perfectly willing to put Restless on an appropriate
pedestal.
Season Six
TCH: "Her previous epiphanies don't lessen this realization,
because, as I've argued before, this show is laced through with
the need for multiple epiphanies. Buffy re-gains parts of herself
in 'Afterlife', 'Gone', 'As You Were' and 'Seeing Red', but the
final epiphany counts for all."
I see your point. I think you correctly portray what the writers
were trying to put across. I suppose that by spreading Buffy's
emotional recovery over so many episodes, ME weakened the dramatic
value of the final epiphany. It may have been more realistic (beating
depression is not something that happens overnight). But I found
it less dramatic and therefore less emotionally satisfying.
Buffy's emotional recovery in Anne was more metaphoric, though
less realistic. I found it more satisfying:
Guard: "Who are you?"
Lily: "No one."
Guard: "Who are you?"
Boy#2: "No one."
Guard: Who are you?"
Buffy" I'm Buffy. The Vampire Slayer. And you are...?"
Sometimes I guess I'm just a fan/geek who wants to get back to
the butt kicking.
TCH: " I think I'm in the minority and you're in the majority
here, but I disagree."
That's OK. We can agree to disagree. I'm glad you got so much
enjoyment from season six.
Season One
TCH: "It would be too short for any of the other seasons,
but I think it's deadweight for a 12 episode Season in which at
least 6 of the episodes have nothing to do with the main arc.
The resolution seems appropriate to the Season, with the first
real emotional outcries form Buffy and Willow allowing the show
to deepen itself slightly, although with the interesting 'When
She Was Bad', the paradigm is deepened significantly further for
the wonderful Season Two."
I think we're on the same wavelength here. In many ways I think
the finale arc of Season One includes both 'Prophecy Girl' and
'When She Was Bad'. If we consider them together I retract my
comment about insufficient length.
Season Three
TCH: "'The Prom' gave me a breather? I barely breathed throughout
the whole thing, I was far to busy crying at every other scene!
While I suppose it is strictly a filler episode, 'The Prom' is
so extremely importantly thematically linked to the events of
the previous and subsequent episodes that I didn't find it nearly
as jolting as the genuinely incongruous 'Go Fish' in Season Two."
True. 'The Prom' is one of my favorites. It is by no means 'Go
Fish'. I kept it out of the finale arc because it didn't do much
to advance the Buffy vs. Faith / Mayor arc. But it is a lovely
story.
TCH: "Well those eight final episodes, shorn of the Polyfilla
of 'Killed By Death' and so on, represent eight of the very best
episodes Mutant Enemy has ever put together. I prefer 'Becoming'
to 'Graduation Day', but would give the glorious 'Enemies'/'Choices'
double bill a slight edge over the also-marvelous 'Passion'/'I
Only Have Eyes For You'."
Agreed. BTVS has two kinds of episodes. Those that are effectively
stand alone (Hush, The Body) and those that depend on and advance
the main plot (Becoming I & II, Once More With Feeling). The first
are wonderful on their own. The second are wonderful in context.
They almost deserve to be examined separately because they serve
different dramatic masters.
Thanks for all the comments.
-JG
[> [> [> Hmmm...interesting
posts, some quibbles to both(Spoilers for all seasons in this
and my first post) -- s'kat, 22:06:32 05/26/03 Mon
It's late and I should go to bed and read...but what the heck.
Largely agree with TCH's comments on this. But do have
a few quibbles? (if that's the right term)
1.TCH: "I don't really see 'Restless' as a part of Season
Four, more a work of singular genius distended into its own little
slot right in the middle of the Buffy mythology, (a similar accusation
has been leveled at 'Home' for Angel, which makes me even more
fascinated by whatever's going in that episode."
I disagree with both of you regarding Restless. Not regarding
it's greatness, I think it is probably one of the best episodes
of a television show, any television show.
No, I disagree that it wasn't part of the arc or the theme.
I think it was very much part of it - just as HOME on Ats was
very much a part of Ats S4's theme. In fact I think to understand
Restless - you really need to have watched all of Season 4.
Here's why: the theme of S4 Btvs was to some extent - taking your
own initiative, experimentation, exploration, breaking away from
old ties, establishing new ones, and building on those ties, maybe
even changing them in some way. It's about the transistion from
high school and the structures of high school to college and the
world outside high school where there aren't those nifty safe
structures.
We have Giles struggling with who he is and what his role is in
the lives of W/X/B. Xander trying to figure who and what he is
and where he fits in, trying on several jobs during the year.
Willow figuring out her sexuality and place in the world and magic.
Buffy figuring out who she is, and how she defines herself outside
of the Watcher's Council, Angel, or even being a student and friend.
To further this arc - we have the episodes: Who Are You, Superstar,
Pangs, Something Blue, Harsh Light of Day,
Hush, The I in Team...culminating in the four episode arc
Just George mentioned - where we deal with Willow confessing her
sexuality to Buffy in New Moon Rising, Xander dealing with having
no job or path, and Buffy struggling with her past issues with
Angel in the cross-over episodes Sanctuary and Yoko Factor. Primeval
on it's surface looks like these characters resolved their issues
and came back together as they always do - but Restless proves
that they are no where near resolving these issues, and as the
First Slayer systematically attacks each Scooby through their
connection to Buffy, we see how these unresolved issues bubble
under the surface threatening to tear them apart. In Yoko Factor/Primeval
- we think we know the issues: ie. Xander - no job and fears of
how others perceive him, Giles - feeling unwanted and useless,
Willow - afraid of how people perceive her sexuality and see her
as a dilettant, Buffy - afraid she is alone and can't count on
anyone. In Restless - we discover Xander's fears go even deeper
- he's afraid he's like his father and has no heart,
Willow is afraid she's just a geek and has no power or spirit,
Giles can't make up his mind between being Watcher or Father...he
feels that Buffy no longer needs him - no slayer does, and Buffy
fears that she really is just a killer alone in the desert sleeping
on a bag of bones. Restless takes the fears that are mentioned
throughout S4 and crystalizes them giving them new depth and meaning.
It's probably the best finale next to Becoming, the series has
ever had - in my opinion.;-) (I know lots of people hate it -
I loved it. But I also loved Home...so there you go. )
TCH: "Her previous epiphanies don't lessen this realization,
because, as I've argued before, this show is laced through with
the need for multiple epiphanies. Buffy re-gains parts of herself
in 'Afterlife', 'Gone', 'As You Were' and 'Seeing Red', but the
final epiphany counts for all."
JG: I see your point. I think you correctly portray what the writers
were trying to put across. I suppose that by spreading Buffy's
emotional recovery over so many episodes, ME weakened the dramatic
value of the final epiphany. It may have been more realistic (beating
depression is not something that happens overnight). But I found
it less dramatic and therefore less emotionally satisfying.
I'm part of TCH's minority - ie. the small group of fans who loved
Season 6, we're a tiny group but a vocal one. ;-)
That said, I think part of the problem people had with Grave was
for once it wasn't ALL ABOUT BUFFY. The emotional arc really wasn't
solely Buffy's. Through most of S6 we were in a sense commenting
on events in Xander and Willow's Restless Dreams. S5 dealt heavily
with Buffy. S6 was more Willow's year. We did have a Buffy arc
but in some ways it felt secondary to Willow's as opposed to the
other way around. Also for once, Buffy wasn't the hero, Xander
was.
Spike also in the final three episodes - seemed to branch away
from Buffy somewhat - yes, his journey was metaphorically about
her coming to terms with her depression and inner darkness - but
it was also separate from that...and this was a risky move for
a show that tends to focus on one character more than the others.
Also, I think the writers sort of backed off of going all the
way with Willow...which may have weakened the emotional impact
somewhat. I know Grave's pacing felt slower to me than other season
finales, but also know that there were production problems - so
that may be part of the reason.
I think we're on the same wavelength here. In many ways I think
the finale arc of Season One includes both 'Prophecy Girl' and
'When She Was Bad'. If we consider them together I retract my
comment about insufficient length.
Regarding the arc on S1. I actually think even though this season
was mostly stand alone - Out of Sight Out of Mind, Nightmares
and Prophecy Girl do in a way form an arc.
Nightmares - brings up Buffy's fear of being bitten by the
Master. A fear that is brought up again in Prophecy Girl.
Also Nightmares ties into Buffy's own issues with father figures.
Out of Sight Out of Mind - deals with her fears of not being important
or noticed, the idea of just fading away - again death imagery.
We also have Angel commenting on this - and the major plot development
of Angel delivering the Codex to Giles.
Prophecy Girl completes the emotional arc - Buffy overcomes her
fear of death, of not being important, of the Master and is empowered.
She moves to the next stage.
TCH: "'The Prom' gave me a breather? I barely breathed
throughout the whole thing, I was far to busy crying at every
other scene! While I suppose it is strictly a filler episode,
'The Prom' is so extremely importantly thematically linked to
the events of the previous and subsequent episodes that I didn't
find it nearly as jolting as the genuinely incongruous 'Go Fish'
in Season Two."
True. 'The Prom' is one of my favorites. It is by no means 'Go
Fish'. I kept it out of the finale arc because it didn't do much
to advance the Buffy vs. Faith / Mayor arc. But it is a lovely
story.
Again I disagree - I think the Prom is an important part of the
emotional arc. 1)It shows why Buffy feels the need to stay for
Graduation and get everyone to help her. She is recognized for
the first time by her classmates and as a result - she is empowered
to ask them to help her. The idea of being seen by her classmates
- is a theme throughout this season - seen in the episodes Dead
Man's Party, Homecoming, Bad girls, Earshot..., it's also part
of the contrast with Faith who is a high-school drop-out and not
part of the school community. 2) Prom sets up the reason Angel
leaves in Graduation Day - which makes perfect sense, if you think
about it. Lots of people seem to think Joyce is the reason he
decided to go. I strongly disagree. True Joyce visits him in Prom,
but it is the dream he has after her visit that plants the seed.
In the dream he marries Buffy only to watch her step outside the
church and be devoured by flames - a foreshadowing of when Buffy
forces Angel to drink from her in Graduation Day Part II - an
act that almost kills Buffy and rocks Angel to his core. He realizes
in that moment - if he stays with her, he will eventually kill
her or she will attempt to kill herself to save him. Without Prom
- the Drink Me sequence in Graduation Day lacks emotional impact.
Personally I prefer Prom when viewed in association with Enemies,
Earshot, Choices, Graduation Day Part I & II.
It doesn't work for me as a stand-alone.
That's all for now.
Hope it added something.
SK
[> [> [> [> One
mis-step from 'Grave' I've been meaning to mention... -- Tchaikovsky,
07:05:01 05/27/03 Tue
I disagree with the creative decision to end the Season on the
return of Spike's soul. It suggested to me that Spike was the
reason I should have been watching the Season, and Spike's individual
journey was the reason I should continue to watch. I have absolutely
no problems with Spike's role in Season Six, and even the trick
played on us when Spike is ostensibly going to get his chip removed.
But I didn't want it as the last scene, as well as it links into
the McLachlan song, because it undermines the importance of Buffy
and Willow's arcs, to me at least.
On your other points- I largely agree with you on 'Restless' actually,
it's just that it's an episode 'Not for a Season, but for all
time' [hope Ben Jonson will excuse me]. It reverberates through
any Season you choose to put it with, even the ones before it
was written. Certainly though it deepens sevral themes running
through the finale arc. And although not my favourite Season Finale
(like you, 'Becoming), it is my favourite episode of Buffy, ever
[and there's no opportunity for that to change now. Sob!]
The only major reason for excluding 'The Prom' is it's complete
lack of direct relevance to the main plot of the Finale, without
Faith and The Mayor. In every other sense, it is as much grounded
in the Season as any of the other beautiful 21 episodes form a
Season full of wonderful craftsmanship.
TCH
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: One mis-step from 'Grave' I've been meaning to mention...
-- ponygirl, 08:07:17 05/27/03 Tue
But I didn't want it as the last scene, as well as it links
into the McLachlan song, because it undermines the importance
of Buffy and Willow's arcs, to me at least.
Hmm, do you think that it could have been linked thematically
with the scenes that preceded it, if one sees s6 as a journey
towards wholeness? I agree that Lurky could have been less "bwahaha"
in the scene, however I saw Spike's journey as very much connected
to Willow and Buffy's struggles to overcome grief and despair.
It made sense to me that after scenes of healing, and moving forward
(or in Jonathon and Andrew's case running away), we see the one
character who had seemingly the least chance of changing becoming
something else entirely. In the "it's all about Buffy"
vein I see the final montage as Buffy emerging from her despair
(crawling fom the grave), letting herself grieve (Willow/Xander),
accepting support (Giles/Anya), sending her fears away (Jonathon/Andrew),
looking to the future (Buffy/Dawn), and finally in Spike's scene
shedding her ideas of her own "wrongness", and moving
to an entirely new stage of development.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Metaphor at the expense of plot (again) -- Sophist,
09:26:54 05/27/03 Tue
I see the final montage as Buffy emerging from her despair
(crawling fom the grave), letting herself grieve (Willow/Xander),
accepting support (Giles/Anya), sending her fears away (Jonathon/Andrew),
looking to the future (Buffy/Dawn), and finally in Spike's scene
shedding her ideas of her own "wrongness", and moving
to an entirely new stage of development.
I don't doubt you can make the metaphor work. Metaphor is inherently
flexible enough to make almost anything work. The real success
of the other finales, though, is that they work not just as metaphor
but as plot and as catharsis.
IMO, S6 fails at plot and catharsis for several related reasons:
they confused the Willow arc with MagiCrack; poor pacing and scripts
in Villains-Grave (esp. Grave) interfered with both plot and emotion;
the confusion over the Spike/soul scenes detracted from the impact
of that scene; I agree with s'k about ending the season with Spike;
and the focus on Xander interfered with catharsis for those who
identify with Buffy rather than him (which, after 6 seasons, should
have been everyone -- as manwitch says, Buffy is us).
To me, the most significant fact about Grave is that it's the
only finale that Joss didn't write. Given all the criticism that
DF receives here (most of it justified, though not all), I find
it hard to believe that anyone would find DF's finale preferable
to any of JW's, notwithstanding their views of S6 as a
whole.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Re: Metaphor at the expense of plot (again)
-- Just George, 10:13:22 05/27/03 Tue
Sophist: "To me, the most significant fact about Grave is
that it's the only finale that Joss didn't write. Given all the
criticism that DF receives here (most of it justified, though
not all), I find it hard to believe that anyone would find DF's
finale preferable to any of JW's, notwithstanding their views
of S6 as a whole."
Interesting. I didn't include 'Restless' in the Season 4 finale
arc. That means that I put all of Joss' finale arcs above all
the non-Joss finale arcs.
-JG
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Metaphor is stretchy bendy fun! -- ponygirl,
11:23:14 05/27/03 Tue
Certainly not going to argue with you about a preference for Joss
scripts over DF's! And I do agree with your comments on the pacing/writing
for the last few episodes of s6. Still do you really think that
plot-wise Grave failed? It seemed to me that aside from some details
- how'd that evil temple get there; could we had a least one shot
of Xander over-hearing the conversation on Willow's location -
s6 had a very clearly choreographed conclusion. So much so that
I think they sacrificed some of the emotion to make sure the characters
got to the places the story needed them to be - a story that,
if you look away and speed up past the MagiCrack parts, runs in
a very clear line from Bargaining.
It's hard not to bring metaphor into discussions of s6, plot and
metaphor become pretty interchangeable for long stretches of the
season, and not always to the show's benefit. I agree that Grave's
not the best of finales, and didn't give me all the sweet catharsis
I craved (but then is anything going to beat Becoming?), but I
do think it works on a lot of levels. Mostly I'm just excited
to be having a s6 discussion - it's been so long!
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> Hee! 'Metaphor is stretchy bendy fun!' is
my new motto -- Dyna, 12:50:17 05/27/03 Tue
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> Better than taffy. -- Sophist, 13:32:23
05/27/03 Tue
Or maybe even Gumby.
do you really think that plot-wise Grave failed?
Not per se, no. I do think the Willow story arc fails as a plot,
but that's intrinsic to S6, not unique to Grave. My statement
above was that the pacing and dialogue in Villains-Grave interfered
with both plot and catharsis.
Other than MagiCrack, the biggest problem of S6 is probably the
one identified by JG. The central storyline involved Buffy's attempts
to cope with depression. Grave, however, made that a tertiary
issue, less important than either Spike or Willow/Xander. Downplaying
the cathartic effect of the principal storyline strikes me as
a poor decision.
a story that, if you look away and speed up past the MagiCrack
parts, runs in a very clear line from Bargaining
If you mean Willow here, I can't agree. The storyline ran fine
from Bargaining through TR as abuse of power. Then they replaced
it with MagiCrack from Smashed to Grave. Willow's end of season
rampage is thus disconnected from Bargaining/TR and hard to separate
from MagiCrack.
I'd also add 2 additional difficulties with the W/X scene. First,
Willow's "relapse" took us just 3 episodes (Villains-Grave),
meaning that the opportunity to build towards catharsis was severely
limited.
Second, do we really experience catharsis or sympathy when a drug
addict is talked down from a high? Don't we instead feel more
a sense of distaste? Everyone knows I find Willow a very sympathetic
character. If even I have a hard time finding catharsis in her
breakdown in Grave, I wonder who would.
We are certainly in agreement about one thing: nothing is going
to beat Becoming.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> Was it cathartic for you? It sure was
cathartic for me -- ponygirl, smoking a metaphorical cigarette,
21:04:06 05/27/03 Tue
We are certainly in agreement about one thing: nothing is going
to beat Becoming.
Maybe what we should be looking at is why Becoming worked so well
(the lovely Rob might appreciate it too). Sure it had tragedy
- which by definition should lead to catharsis - it had romance,
and it had one of Sarah McLachlan's saddest songs, but I think
it also had some very nifty structural elements that sometimes
seemed a bit lacking in finales since.
S2 had a lot of placeholder/standalone episodes, a lot more than
I usually recall when I look back at the season, but the core
episodes, which I would say are Lie To Me, What's My Line, Surprise,
Innocence, Passion, IOHEFY, and of course Becoming, have a very
clear and definite theme - passion generally and B/A specifically.
Every relationship is affected by this central theme - even X/C
and W/O could be said as arising directly out of the events of
WML - so every character has a stake in its outcome, beyond just
the usual sucked into hell problem.
Becoming had a very clear villian, and Becoming 1 made sure we
understood him and his motivations. Angelus himself says it, everything
he has done has led him to this moment - Becoming 1 was a summation
of his character, a resolution of the character as we knew him.
There may have been more colourful villians, but we've never had
one we knew so well. Also his plan was exceedingly clear: pull
out the sword and suck the world into hell. It doesn't get much
more basic than that, I wish the FE or Adam had been able to sum
everything up so simply.
All of the major characters' arcs also came to a head in this
episode. What's more the events that led to these emotional crisis
points sprang up naturally as a direct result of the plot. Case
in point: Giles gets to confront Angelus and his relationship
with Jenny because Angelus kidnaps him to get information, knowledge
that Giles displays at the beginning of Becoming 1. If that got
any tidier it would have hospital corners.
Every major character also contributed something unique to final
resolution, and not just in a let's all charge into battle kind
of way. Spike's alliance, Willow's spell, Xander's role as both
guy with a rock and the teller of the big lie - everybody did
something that they and only they could do. But perhaps most importantly
everything finally came down to one central battle, one decision,
one action that was in itself the resolution of the theme. And
plus the song.
So that's in a nutshell why I think Becoming works so well. Restless
had tonnes of metaphorical richness, but by its very nature not
much clarity. Graduation Day suffered in that its true resolution
was in the relationship of Buffy and Faith, the big battle was
denouement. The Gift I loved, and would rank as my second favourite
finale, but I don't know if it was as successful in uniting all
of its themes as well as it did its plot elements (and I don't
think I'm in the majority opinion on the plot). Grave seems to
have suffered from a murkiness of theme and a diffusion of storyline.
Prophecy Girl it's not fair to judge with the others, and Chosen...
I'm still working on my opinion. Catharsis seems to be a highly
subjective thing - except when it comes to Becoming.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> Yes. Perfect summary. --
Sophist, 21:30:58 05/27/03 Tue
And I agree about The Gift also.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> Would agree with this. Odd...
-- s'kat, 23:53:36 05/27/03 Tue
The odd thing about Becoming is of all the finals - it had the
choppiest final group of episodes.
We get Surprise/Innocence (part of the arc)
then Phases and BBB (vaguely refers to the arc)
then Passion (part of the arc)
Killed by Death (vaguely refers to arc)
IOHEFY ( part of the arc/but also a stand alone)
Go Fish (very vague reference to the arc)
Becoming I and II
Compare to
S3 : Bad Girls/Consequences
Doppelgangland (refers to arc but vaguely)
Enemies (part of arc)
Earshot (doesn't refer to the arc except by theme - the Killed
by Death of this season?)
Choices (part of arc)
the Prom (refers to the arc - the Go Fish of this season? but
much better)
Graduation Day I & II (definite part of the arc)
to S4
New Moon Rising
The Yoko Factor
Primeval
Restless
(The last four episodes are part of the arc, the ones prior to
that? Really aren't)
S5
Intervention
Tough Love
Spiral
the Weight of The World
The Gift
(all very much part of the arc, no vague references)
S6
Entropy
Seeing Red
Villains
Two to Go
Grave
(Also all very much part of the main arc)
S7
Dirty Girls
Empty Places
Touched
End of Days
Chosen
(same as S6 all very much part of the arc)
This means that it's not the plotting of the arc that makes us
love Becoming so much, but the writing of Becoming PArt I & II
as well as Surprise/Innocence, BBB, Passion - all these episodes
were stellar with very few complaints and they did a good job
of describing character motivations.
Plus we had the lead ins of Whats My Line, Lie to Me,
Halloween and School HArd - which support the arc as well.
I think ponygirl is right:
S2 had a lot of placeholder/standalone episodes, a lot more
than I usually recall when I look back at the season, but the
core episodes, which I would say are Lie To Me, What's My Line,
Surprise, Innocence, Passion, IOHEFY, and of course Becoming,
have a very clear and definite theme - passion generally and B/A
specifically. Every relationship is affected by this central theme
- even X/C and W/O could be said as arising directly out of the
events of WML - so every character has a stake in its outcome,
beyond just the usual sucked into hell problem.
Becoming had a very clear villian, and Becoming 1 made sure we
understood him and his motivations. Angelus himself says it, everything
he has done has led him to this moment - Becoming 1 was a summation
of his character, a resolution of the character as we knew him.
There may have been more colourful villians, but we've never had
one we knew so well. Also his plan was exceedingly clear: pull
out the sword and suck the world into hell. It doesn't get much
more basic than that, I wish the FE or Adam had been able to sum
everything up so simply.
All of the major characters' arcs also came to a head in this
episode. What's more the events that led to these emotional crisis
points sprang up naturally as a direct result of the plot. Case
in point: Giles gets to confront Angelus and his relationship
with Jenny because Angelus kidnaps him to get information, knowledge
that Giles displays at the beginning of Becoming 1. If that got
any tidier it would have hospital corners.
Every major character also contributed something unique to final
resolution, and not just in a let's all charge into battle kind
of way. Spike's alliance, Willow's spell, Xander's role as both
guy with a rock and the teller of the big lie - everybody did
something that they and only they could do. But perhaps most importantly
everything finally came down to one central battle, one decision,
one action that was in itself the resolution of the theme. And
plus the song.
Even though there were several really weak stand-alone's in the
season - the main arc episodes were incredibly strong.
While in other seasons the stand-alones were often stronger than
the main arc. In S4 - Something Blue, This Years Girl, Who Are
You, Hush, Restless, Superstar were all stand-alones and all far
stronger and greater than the arc and with the exception of Restless
and Superstar had little or nothing to do with the arc. In S3
- The Zeppo, The Wish, Dopplegangerland, Lover's Walk, Amends
were all very strong stand-alones and in some ways overshadowed
the main arc.
The weaker episodes were in the main arc. Same thing in S6, S5,
S7 if you think about it. Strong episodes were Beneath You, LMPTM,
Storyteller, Selfless, Fool For Love, OMWF,
Dead Things, Normal Again, The Body, yet all were stand-alones
not necessarly part of the main arc - the main arc episodes were
far weaker. So perhaps that's part of the reason why Becoming
worked better than say the other finals?
sk
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> [> ME's been trying to change
gears for a while now (Spoilers for David Greenwalt interview
on S5) -- Finn Mac Cool, 17:45:37 05/28/03 Wed
When they first created "Angel", the intent was for
it to be a semi-anthology show, with a new story every week, and
focusing on the new victim as much as on Angel himself.
In the summer between Seasons 6 and 7, Marti Noxon stated that
the seventh season would be lighter and have more standalone episodes.
Before Eliza put the kaibosh on plans for a Faith spinoff, the
intent was that it would be a series where Faith would travel
across the country (probably on a motorcycle), fighting evil as
she encountered it. This format naturally lends itself to little
in the way of arc story.
And, in his interview about Angel's fifth season, David Greenwalt
stated that the show would be going in a radically different direction,
including, you guessed it, more standalone episodes.
Seems to me that Mutant Enemy has noticed that their standalone
episodes tend to be better than their arc ones, and so have been
trying to change gears a little from increasing arciness. Sadly,
the past two times they've tried to be more episodic, it's backfired.
Within its first season, "Angel" did develop an arc
story and set up a Big Bag for Season 2. In fact, since that time,
"Angel" has become one of the least episodic shows on
television (behind "24", of course). As for the increase
in standalones for Season Seven, that, like the "Dawn in
High School" theme, got overwhelmed by the arc story of the
Slayers and the First Evil, turning that season into the most
arc centered of all. Plus, Time Minear admitted that they wouldn't
be able to keep a Faith spinoff episodic for too long and that
there would be an arc eventually. While the folks at ME are excellent
writers, they seem naturally inclined to a certain type of writing.
When they try to break out of the mold, they usually end up shifting
back into it and even overcompensating. As such, I suspect the
first half of Season 5 will be largely episodic, as David Greenwalt
said, but that ME won't be able to resist going back to what they
know best later in the year.
And you know, I must admit, I often find myself enjoying the standalone
eps more than the arc ones (though I do still think that CwDP,
the first truly arc ep of Season Seven, is the best). I think
it largely has to do with freedom. In arc episodes, the writers
are constrained by having to advance the big story a certain amount
and can't do everything they might like to do, which hampers the
creative process. In standalones, however, writers are much freer.
They can create all sorts of creatures, any sort of plot, and
basically get to put many more new ideas out there. Plus, as someone
who likes to imagine what it would be like to be an ME writer,
it's much more fun to think of cool ideas for episodes than how
I'd be able to advance the arc story.
I think the reason the arc episodes were better earlier in Season
2 was that that was the time when ME hadn't truly developed the
writer pantheon that they have now. Instead, most of the writers
were recently hired, and, as such, were used to the TV rules of
writing where you write episodes to suit the wishes of the people
in charge. This meant that writers like Ty King wrote the eps
as Joss wanted them, and were very open to changing the events
of the episodes. But, as the seasons have progressed, ME has gradually
filtered out the not-so-good writers and held on to the better
ones. This is both a blessing and a curse. On the one hand, you
can expect these writers to do a better job crafting a story and
writing the episode. However, they have been writing Buffy for
a while, so they have a certain level of authority when it comes
to the episodes. If Joss or Marti suggest a change, the current
group is less likely to submit than the one back in Season 2,
because they've gotten established enough to truthfully claim
to be co-creators of the stories, rather than just a means through
which the producers' ideas can be filtered. This means that, for
standalone episodes, they're likely to do better, since it is
much more permissable there for the writers to write their own
sort of thing. But, in arc episodes, the necessity is to further
advance the story that Joss has created, which means the writers
are hindered by their sense of partial creative control.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> [> The arc is much more than
just the plot -- lunasea, 07:30:23 05/28/03 Wed
The arc is often more in the emotions, than it is in the plot.
The emotional rollar coaster the characters are on set up their
frame of mind for what is the crucial scene season 2, the discussion
to resoul Angel. Various events lead up to this, but the change
in Xander in "Killed By Death" is crucial. IOHEFY is
crucial because it sets up Angel's state of mind. Since when does
Angel want to distroy the world? He would loose all his toys.
He is the cat that is loathe to kill the mouse because his fun
would be over. He takes this drastic step to "be free."
When I trace the arc, with all my multi-color pens, emotions seem
to be the most important thing to look at. The events are just
how to generate the needed emotion. Joss' brilliance lies in figuring
out ways to generate these emotions and to suck us into his world
with them.
I agree with whomever said S2 was so strong because we really
knew the big bad. His motivation was the most complex and we really
did feel for what Buffy had to do. It was the most emotional resonant
of any season. Glory wanted to go home, yawn. Adam was just innacting
his program, double yawn. The Mayor wanted to be a powerful demon
(never learn why), sigh. The Master wanted to get free (and do
what then?), that's nice. No real motivation was given for the
First. As my husband said, "It's evil. Does it have to have
motivation?"
S3 was the most tightly written. That is why these two are often
listed as the two best seasons overall. Sure there are filler
episodes, but those fillers really kept the emotional rollar coaster
going. Season 2 and 3 really built up the emotions of the characters
going into the finales and kept them there. They also left Buffy
at a very raw place. Season 1, Buffy leaves with the gang happy.
Season 4, Buffy ends Primeval on a high point and Restless starting
to question, but not quite exposed yet. Season 5 ends with dead
Buffy. Season 6 ends with Buffy coming out of the Grave.
Compare that with season 2 where Buffy is feels so bad and alone,
she leaves or with Season 3 where Buffy is completely overwhelmed
by everything "fire bad, tree pretty." As Joss learned
early, Buffy in pain = good TV.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> I'll go along with that, pg.
-- cjl, 07:35:38 05/28/03 Wed
I'm still working on my feelings about "Chosen," too.
I can't decide whether I'm mildly peeved about the neglected characters,
loose ends and forgotten plot points left by the side of the road
that was S7, whether I'm hopping mad about it, or just don't care
(mainly because Joss and crew didn't seem to care, either). If
I decide to go with the last of the three, this could lead to
questioning my formerly UNquestioned geek love of the series as
a whole--and I'm not sure I want to go there. Thus. . .silence.
(For now.)
All I know for now is that what worked in S7 had absolutely nothing
to do with the main arc, which I found utterly tedious a good
90% of the time. The Willow, Xander, Giles, and Anya character
bits (when we got 'em) didn't seem to add much to Buffy's story
(and vice versa). "Becoming" reflected a season where
the characters seemed to be more than the sum of their parts;
"Chosen" reflected a season where the characters seemed
to be less than the sum of their parts.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> [> Waiting for a clearer head
-- ponygirl, 08:34:41 05/28/03 Wed
I'm really hesitant to try to evaluate s7 right now. It took me
a few days to figure out what I was feeling last week, I finally
identified my emotion as actual grief. No chance of me losing
my geek love badge! But it makes clear-headed analysis pretty
impossible. I'm not sure how much of my current crankiness with
the season stems from failures on ME's part, or from my own frustration
that I had really thought I had everything figured out and it
turned out I was paying attention to the wrong parts of the story.
I've had complete about-faces before. I couldn't stand s4 when
it aired, but after the finale and some re-runs I changed my mind.
Now it's currently slugging it out with s3 in my internal rankings.
I've watched seasons primarily for one character's journey, only
to go back and find that someone else has suddenly become more
interesting - the first time I watched s3, it was all about Faith
for me, now I can't believe I missed so many interesting things
about Buffy. Hell, I even like Riley now that time has
passed and his story concluded (well, I still have to ignore AYW).
So I'm waiting on s7. Maybe someday it will be warm cookie goodness
for me.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Waiting for a
clearer head - I'm there with you on the grief. -- Rowena,
11:26:26 05/28/03 Wed
I'm so glad you said that last week you were feeling actual grief
about the end of the show. I, too, have been grieving and since
none of my friends get my interest (too mild a word, I know) in
BtVS, it's been a pretty lonely process. Sort of like when one
of my cats died. People are sympathetic the first day or so, but
then they expected me to be over it because "it was only
a cat." If they couldn't understand grieving over a beloved
pet, they certainly won't grasp a person's attachment to a TV
series and its characters. Well, everyone on this board knows
that BtVS is more than "just a TV show."
I haven't even been able to watch Chosen again. Not so much because
of the episode's content, but because it was the "final"
episode. This is denial, a real stage of the grieving process.
It can't be over! If that's geeky, put me down for a geek badge,
please. I'll be proud to wear it.
During the past week, I've been rewatching Season 4 and enjoying
the theme of change in it ..i.e. Circumstances change, people
grow, drift apart, come together again, life goes on and so do
we. Maybe that resonates for me right now because TV as I know
it has been irrevocably and profoundly altered by Buffy the Vampire
Slayer .. and my life is the better for it. I hate for it to have
had to end. Thank goodness for DVD and reruns ... and you guys.
I enjoy reading your intelligent and thoughtful posts.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> maybe that was the point though (spoiler
Chosen) -- lunasea, 07:05:47 05/28/03 Wed
The central storyline involved Buffy's attempts to cope with
depression. Grave, however, made that a tertiary issue, less important
than either Spike or Willow/Xander. Downplaying the cathartic
effect of the principal storyline strikes me as a poor decision.
This season the conclusion isn't really about Buffy, but the girls
of the world. Season 6, the finale doesn't center on Buffy, thus
showing how it really isn't all about Buffy. In a season of Buffy's
self-centeredness where she can't manage to find something to
sing about, it was appropriate that the finale pretty much ignored
her. Even Giles relieved her of fighting Willow. The finale itself
echoed The Prayer of St. Francis, with Buffy giving her screen
time to further other characters rather than use it for herself.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Ok - I give up - Where does
'fire bad, tree pretty.' appear? -- Pegleg Pete, 09:30:11
05/28/03 Wed
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> [> Buffy's exhausted musing
at the end of 'Graduation Day II' -- KdS, 09:34:05 05/28/03
Wed
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Thanks! --
Pegleg Pete, 12:04:49 05/28/03 Wed
[> [> [> [> Defining
the terms of the discussion... -- Just George, 10:06:34
05/27/03 Tue
Each season contains many themes and emotional conflicts. For
each season, I defined what I thought of as the "emotional
core" of each finale arc. All my resulting comments flow
from those sweeping oversimplifications.
For example, I began talking about the Season 3 arc with "The
central emotional conflict of Season 3 is Buffy vs. Faith (or
Buffy vs. Buffy's shadow self)." I could have focused on
Buffy vs. Authority (the Council of Watchers and The Mayor). The
analysis would have been completely different.
I think that your comments are extremely valid. They take a broader
reading that is inclusive of many themes in each season. They
are perhaps more nuanced than mine.
However, an important part of my emotional resonance with a story
comes from having big clear, emotional conflicts that are resolved
in complex and dramatic ways. Perhaps that is why I responded
so well to the 'operatic' nature of Season 2. That is why I used
the term "emotional core". For my own edification, I
was tying to identify the core conflict that I responded to in
each season and figure out how each conflict was resolved.
Season 4
s'kat: "Restless takes the fears that are mentioned throughout
S4 and crystalizes them giving them new depth and meaning. It's
probably the best finale next to Becoming, the series has ever
had - in my opinion.;-) (I know lots of people hate it - I loved
it. But I also loved Home...so there you go. )"
I began my analysis by stating "the emotional core of the
finale arc was the Scoobies vs. each other." From this POV,
the finale arc ended with 'Primeval'. 'Restless' is about the
Scoobies vs. themselves. But, almost every story is partially
about the protagonists vs. themselves. I suppose that's why I
treat 'Restless' separately.
BTW, I loved 'Restless', though 'Home' didn't light my fire. My
opinion of 'Home' will doubtless improve if its themes are well
realized in ATS Season 5.
Season 6
I like Season 6, a lot. I was one of its defenders here back in
the day.
Again, my analysis begins with "the central emotional conflict
in Season 6 was Buffy vs. her depression." From that standpoint,
I found the finale less than emotionally satisfying. If the central
emotional conflict was Willow resisting becoming a sociopath,
then the analysis would be very different.
However, if Willow's arc was the central emotional theme of Season
6, I think it was poorly realized.
What would you say was Willow's central emotional conflict?
You also mentioned production problems. Could you elaborate?
Season 1
S'kat: "Prophecy Girl completes the emotional arc - Buffy
overcomes her fear of death, of not being important, of the Master
and is empowered. She moves to the next stage."
Cool. 'Nightmares' is one of my favorite episodes. Linking it
into the end of Season 1 finale just makes me love it more. :-)
Season 3
S'kat: "Again I disagree - I think the Prom is an important
part of the emotional arc."
'The Prom' is an important part of the emotional arc of the entire
season. It is not really a one shot because it requires the surrounding
episodes to set up and deliver on the themes of Buffy's connection
to her community and Buffy cutting her ties with Angel.
However it is not an important part of the Buffy vs. Faith arc.
I left it out for that reason.
Lots of cool comments! Thanks!
-JG
[> [> [> [> [>
Wrote this huge response but voy ate it -- s'kat, 16:20:25
05/27/03 Tue
so am trying again, but it won't be as good. sigh.
Season 4
s'kat: "Restless takes the fears that are mentioned throughout
S4 and crystalizes them giving them new depth and meaning. It's
probably the best finale next to Becoming, the series has ever
had - in my opinion.;-) (I know lots of people hate it - I loved
it. But I also loved Home...so there you go. )"
I began my analysis by stating "the emotional core of the
finale arc was the Scoobies vs. each other." From this POV,
the finale arc ended with 'Primeval'. 'Restless' is about the
Scoobies vs. themselves. But, almost every story is partially
about the protagonists vs. themselves. I suppose that's why I
treat 'Restless' separately.
You see, I still see Restless differently than you do. You see
it as a series of dreams about each Scooby. I see it as an internal
Yoko Factor.
Yoko Factor - is the external break-up or demonstration of the
Scoobies issues causing them to disconnect. In Yoko Factor - the
one who cause these issues to rise to the surface is Buffy's external
shadow/alter-ego Spike and it is Spike at the beginning of Primeval
that provides Buffy with the information necessary to resolve
it. Then in Restless - we have Buffy's internal shadow/alter-ego
the First Slayer - who disconnects the Scoobies from Buffy.
In Yoko Factor - Spike disconnects them from Buffy, causing her
to feel alone. She manages to bring them back together at the
beginning of Primeval and Primeval shows the necessity of their
union or how she needs them. Restless - has the inner Buffy, the
First Slayer, entering the SG's dreams to disconnect them from
Buffy again, but Buffy manages to over-power her inner demon/shadow
and reconnects them. So Yoko Factor externalized - Buffy vs. SG,
in Restless internalized Buffy vs. SG. In Restless since it is
internalized - we get a greater exploration of the issues that
cause the disconnection. In Yoko Factor we get the symptoms of
these issues. Yoko Factor and Restless are bookends with Primeval
serving as the yummy creamy center.
Hope that clarifies my thoughts on Restless better.
Season 6
I like Season 6, a lot. I was one of its defenders here back in
the day.
Again, my analysis begins with "the central emotional conflict
in Season 6 was Buffy vs. her depression." From that standpoint,
I found the finale less than emotionally satisfying. If the central
emotional conflict was Willow resisting becoming a sociopath,
then the analysis would be very different.
However, if Willow's arc was the central emotional theme of Season
6, I think it was poorly realized.
I disagree with what you percieve as the core emotional conflict.
You see - I don't see it as Buffy vs. Depression.
I think Depression was a symptom of the conflict, not the core.
Joss Whedon in an interview with Fred Topol of about.com, states
that Buffy's struggle in S6 was with her power. She wanted to
give it up, let go of it, she was ashamed of it. This is symbolized
by her unhealthy relationship with Spike - where she allows him
to take a dominant role and wants to be punished. He symbolizes
what she hates about her power - the dark energy of it. Willow
also symbolizes her struggle with power - Willow sees power as
an addiction you have to give up - Willow uses it to change things
to her liking. Something Buffy wrestles with in the episodes Flooded,
Life Serial, and Gone - especially Gone where she uses power to
change things. The troika in a sense are also symbolic of this
struggle with how you use power and the shame associated with
it. They use it to get things they want, care less about who they
hurt. Buffy has all this power, but feels she doesn't deserve
it, it brought her back - yet she feels undeserving. The depression
is a symptom of that self-loathing and hate.
What would you say was Willow's central emotional conflict?
Again it was with power. Willow saw power as either an addiction
or something that enabled her to make things better for herself
- this is an external representation of how Buffy views power.
Anya grabs power to hurt things when Xander rejects her - another
metaphor of negative effects of power. What Willow doesn't get
is it's not the power in of itself that is bad - but what she
does with it and how she takes it. Just as it wasn't Buffy's relationship
with Spike in of itself that was bad - but how she used him as
a means of punishing herself - giving up the power instead of
sharing the power. The emotional arc was Buffy's struggle with
power - whether power is a corrupting influence, an addiction
- or something brilliant and useful that can help others. Tara
and Giles are examples in S6 of positive uses of Power.
I think if you look at the season in terms of Buffy vs. her power
or struggle with issues relating to power , you'll see that it's
more connected as a whole than if you look at it as Buffy vs.
Depression (which I see as more a symptom of that struggle)
You also mentioned production problems. Could you elaborate?
Marti Noxon mentions in her commentary on S6 which is in SFX magazine
Dec issue (I believe) that I transcribed for Board back in MArch
(?) - that she wasn't available for the production, Joss was there
for certain scenes but not others. And there were problems with
effects and the editing room. It came together better than they
expected but the problems may have effected the pacing. I'm hoping
that someone goes in more detail in the Grave DVD commentary.
Hope that clarifies a little.
Thanks for the response.
SK
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Color me stunned. -- Sophist, 18:44:14 05/27/03
Tue
Not you, s'k (though you do do that). Joss. I find his comments
about S6, if true, to be literally incredible:
Joss Whedon in an interview with Fred Topol of about.com, states
that Buffy's struggle in S6 was with her power. She wanted to
give it up, let go of it, she was ashamed of it. This is symbolized
by her unhealthy relationship with Spike - where she allows him
to take a dominant role and wants to be punished. He symbolizes
what she hates about her power - the dark energy of it. Willow
also symbolizes her struggle with power - Willow sees power as
an addiction you have to give up - Willow uses it to change things
to her liking. Something Buffy wrestles with in the episodes Flooded,
Life Serial, and Gone - especially Gone where she uses power to
change things.
I have seen many -- probably hundreds of -- analyses of S6. No
one, not ever, not once, suggested this as "the" theme
of S6. Are you absolutely sure about this interview?
I can hardly believe that was the writers' intent. Consider OMWF:
where does Buffy suggest that she wants to give up her power?
"I just want to feel aliiiive." "I want the fire
back." "Give me something to sing about." If Joss
ever was to state the above as the seasonal theme, surely he would
have done so in his signature episode, yet there is no such implication
there.
Even the other eps don't make much sense through an "I want
to give up my power" lens. Surely not Life Serial or Flooded.
Buffy did, perhaps, abuse power in Gone, but not Slayer power.
And in Grave, what was her epiphany? "I want to show you
the world." This is consistent with a theme of depression,
not abuse of power.
I have to say that if this was intended as the theme of S6, the
season failed in a way I never dreamed possible. Please tell me
this isn't true.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Power, depression and agency -- Rahael, 15:02:53
05/28/03 Wed
This is a very quick post, but Joss' remarks didn't surprise me
all that much. I made a post a while back where I said that Spike
and Buffy's relationship involved her experimenting with her agency,
her power, her autonomy. Giving it up. Telling her friends not
to forgive her. Telling herself that she can't help it, help the
way she behaves. She experimented with giving up her agency because
her friends took it away from her by bringing her back from heaven.
She didn't leave heaven, she was cast out. That was the dramatic
revelation she made in OMWF. And she resented it, and she couldn't
stop it.
A big part of depression is feeling that you have no voice, no
agency, no ability to act or effect the world around you. Spike
and Buffy's relationship certainly showed her she could have an
effect, and yet, it was a relationship that allowed her to act
and yet still be relinquishing her autonomy. If it happens in
the shadows, is it truly happening at all (whisper in a dead man's
ear.....).
That was my take on it, anyway.
In fact, this gives a better gloss to some of the weaker parts
of the Willow storyline - it was always about power and its abuse,
and her story was a complementary one to Buffy's. Spike's too,
when he discoveres that he can hurt Buffy physically for the first
time.
Anyway, I'll try digging out my earlier posts some time this weekend.
More thoughts later.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> oh, and i nearly forgot! (very vague S7 theme
spoiler) -- Rahael, 15:16:30 05/28/03 Wed
The other major strand in S6, apart from Spuffy, Buffy's depression
and Willow's descent - the troika. Wasn't that all about power,
too?
I still like S6 a whole lot because I think, in many ways, it
explored the idea of power in a variety of interesting ways. In
a less heavy handed way too (no regular intoning of "It's
all about power!"). Chosen adds some nice conclusions to
S6, in my opinion.
Wow, I've only watched S6 once all the way through (some eps more
than once, of course), and yet I can talk about it til the cows
come home.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> I'm waiting for your promised extra
-- Sophist, 16:10:27 05/28/03 Wed
Right now, I see your point, but I still don't see Joss's. You
were, after all, the principal reason I grokked the depression
theme. But the feeling of powerlessness that accompanies depression
seems quite different to me than Joss's claim that Buffy (1) did
not want her power and (2) therefore abused it.
As I said above, I see no evidence that ME ever communicated that
Buffy wanted to relinquish power. Nor do I see evidence that Buffy
abused her Slayer power. Even with Spike, her abuse was only tangential
to her Slayer power.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> An imperfect mirror -- Rahael,
16:23:11 05/28/03 Wed
Buffy looks down at the broken Buffybot, and sees a portent for
her year ahead. Broken apart. Powerless. But then there's this
problem.....she's not powerless. There;s this disjuncture between
these two images of herself, the broken buffybot, a robot, an
automaton, going through the motions, and herself, Buffy, a hero
who saved the world a lot. Hence the conflict within herself.
She knows she's powerful - she has power over Spike. She has power
over her friends and everyone who loves her, power over those
who fear her. Her friends brought her back because they needed
her power - if they had loved her, they might have let her rest
in heaven (speaking from her tormented perspective, of course,
not the reasons they brought her back).
But she's starting to fear the darkness within. The thing that
makes her turn to stone inside, the thing inside that's a killer.
Turning to stone inside is a pretty good metaphor for depression.
Looks like the Gift was a mini-epiphany......
I really do think that Buffy and Willow and the Troika's storyline
of power and control and experimentation should be considered
together.
NOt that I want to make you see Joss' point. Hehehe. Just saying
why I wasn't surprised.
I have posted one old post I found, but I don't think it squarely
addresses your question actually.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> Don't mean to butt in ...Regarding
the Troika and power -- s'kat, 23:41:32 05/28/03 Wed
First off, thanks Rah for a series of great posts, which may not
have convinced Sophist, but bolstered my initial reaction to Joss's
statement which was "of course that makes perfect sense"
as opposed to "you awful writer - I don't see that at all"
- but then having gone through a sizable depression last year
- and having it happen because I felt powerless then getting past
it b/c I took back the power - I guess I could identify. Depression
is a symptom of struggle with loss of one's agency or feeling
of powerlessness.
The other major strand in S6, apart from Spuffy, Buffy's depression
and Willow's descent - the troika. Wasn't that all about power,
too?
Yes. The Troika's main goal in life was power. A lot of people
wondered why Warren spent all his time going after Buffy - well
she was in his view at least the agent of power in Sunnydale.
In Villains he tells the demons at the bar - hey, look at me,
I'm powerful because I killed the slayer!! In SR - we have him
become "empowered" by taking the magic orbs from a demon
(note it's not his own power, he's taken it from someone else
- just as Willow's power is taken from someone else) - he becomes
a bit drunk on this power - in the same way that Willow becomes
drunk on power earlier in the Season (Smashed and Wrecked). So
drunk, he goes to a bar to wreck havoc and steals and tries to
kill Buffy. When she disarms him of his mystical power source,
Warren grabs an artificial source of power - a gun, again not
power from himself - an outside object designed to rob others
of power - he shoots both buffy and tara. Willow uses her own
power to bring Buffy back to life, but has to take power from
Rack in Two to Go - to go after the remaining Troika.
If we go back to Life Serial - we can also see issues relating
to power and control. The Troika are pratically giddy with the
power they have over Buffy in Life Serial - manipulating her at
school, getting her fired, changing her perception of time....they
believe they have power over her. Yet as we see in the final scenes
with Spike - Buffy has more or less given them that agency, she's
given up, she wants someone else to manipulate her, save her.
She goes to Spike - to be saved. When he doesn't "save"
or "fix" her problem - she gets drunk but not on "power"
but on alcohol - a "depressant" which acts to rob one
of one's faculties or power.
Then in the episode Dead Things - we have Buffy giving Spike agency
over her, yet at the same time using him, in contrast to the Troika
who are attempting to gain power over KAtrina, who refuses to
give it to them and is not a willing participant. The contrast
between willingly giving up power - and not willing to give it
up is shown. Warren - upset by Katrina's refusal - takes her power
by force two times - first by removing her ability to choose or
faculty and second by killing her or taking her life. Buffy and
Spike in their power games are in contrast both willing participants
- taking turns regarding whose the dominant party - Spike allows
Buffy to beat him up, Buffy allows Spike to take her in the Bronze.
Katrina does not allow
Warren to take her - he forces her by removing her faculty, Katrina
does not allow him to beat her - she fights back and he kills
her. The cycle is completed when Warren continues to use power
in a negative way by framing Buffy for the murder - he does not
empower himself to come clean, meanwhile Buffy almost gives up
her power again by allowing Spike to cover it up or taking the
blame for it.
In Gone - we have Buffy using the power of invisibility to change
life - contrasted with the Troika who create the invisibility
ray to exert power over others - ie. seeing girls nude, stealing,
even killing people. Buffy uses her invisibility to obtain power
over Spike and Doris. The Troika use it to go molest women, kidnap
Willow, and attempt to hurt Buffy.
Instead of using the power of their intelligence in a good way,
the Troika use it to hurt others and get drunk off of the accomplishment
- a motif that is metanarrated on in Storyteller with Andrew's
statement : "We were gods".
Willow similarily felt like a god with her power and comments
on the drunkness of it in Two to Go and Grave.
Meanwhile we have Buffy who feels powerless all season.
An interesting contrast - considering that up until S6, Buffy
was the most powerful character and the Troika and Willow were
in the damsel territory - needing to be saved.
SK
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> Perceptions and Reality --
Rahael, 01:26:19 05/29/03 Thu
Yes, exactly SK.
To add some comments that your post sparked off - Buffy sees herself
as powerless, constrained by responsiblities, yet she is powerful.
The Troika think they are superheros, only they are rather sad
and weak, morally and physically.
There's a disjuncture here between perception and reality, and
surely the point is that Buffy allows herself to be powerless
and weak, in itself a choice, and a decision.
Moreover, Willow's descent into darkness, and the later eps of
S6 play with this very idea of 'perception', from Willow's trips
to the illusions and mind tricks of the Troika after Katerina
dies, and of course the invisibility in Gone. Buffy enjoys being
invisible, which Marcie considered a curse.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> 'Random experiments in non-consensuality'
-- Rahael, 16:12:12 05/28/03 Wed
As, promised, an old post referring to this, though not the one
I remembered......
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Clarification, Rah -- Rahael,
08:53:27 10/13/02 Sun
Okay, I just lost a long reply!!! Grrrh argh. So will have to
type all this out again.
I agree with you entirely, KdS. Last year's story was not about
Buffy escaping her repression, not to my mind at least.
I was struck by Manwitch's post above, suggesting that the Will/Tara
storyline in Season 5 was a commentary on Buffy's spiritual journey,
culminating in the notion that death was her gift (i.e, the darkest
part of her vocation being the most fruitful, most blessed part).
Similarly, I think your post touches on the commentary that
Will/Tara provides last season, and in fact I think it's this
phrase you use: "random experiments in non-consensuality".
Hasn't this been the biggest theme of Season 6? Isn't there a
synchronicity between what happens to Buffy in Bargaining and
Seeing Red? Bargaining is replete with images of force, non consensuality
and fragmentation. The Champion of the people, had her choice
taken away from her, ripped back from mother earth, her agency
and her power, the very hallmarks of her apotheosis in The Gift,
all sullied. The world she emerges into is one which has been
raped and pillaged. Buffy looks at the torn Buffybot, and it's
a symbol of her inner mind. This has its resonance later in the
season, and in both cases, it is inflicted upon her by those she
trusted.
Then there's Willow's mindwiping of Tara, and the spell in Tabula
Rasa. Buffy's random experiments with non consensuality is a commentary
on the situation she finds herself in, and her attempt to get
to grips with her new sense of powerlessness and lack of choice,
not only emotionally, but socially and financially. She has to
look after Dawn, has to work at DMP, has to cope without Giles.
She's also made to jump through hoops by the nerd troika, themselves
struggling with control/power issues. There's a theme of non-consensuality
as well, with Warren and his games, as well as Willow losing herself
in bad magic, and trying to escape her thoughts and responsibilities.
For me, the sexual imagery of Season 6 functions as metaphor,
rather than Buffy losing her repressiveness. Which to be honest,
I didn't realise she had!!!
What I'd argue is this: BtVS *as a whole* explores the dark side
in a positive way. When individual characters indulge their worst
aspects, it's ultimately shown to be degrading and harmful.
Angel's transformation into Angelus - Jenny with a very broken
neck. Dark Willow - they can't even find Warren's body. Warren
- Tara's dead body. All the Vampires have left behind very dead
bodies of human beings."
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> Re: 'Random experiments in non-consensuality'
-- Sophist, 18:42:39 05/28/03 Wed
Again, I agree with your take. I just don't see any support there
or elsewhere for Joss's. In fact, I'd say your post contradicts
his comments, though I hesitate in saying that because you obviously
don't think so. Not that I bow to authorial intent or anything.....
:)
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> Heh, I think Joss' is quite a
crude formulation! -- Rahael, 01:18:59 05/29/03 Thu
Though it doesn't surprise me - they often do that in interviews.
They tend to be more sophisticated in commentaries.
I'll explain later on today why I don't think it contradicts,
not that I am one these days eager to support Joss. LOL
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> Very good post, thanks. Felt same way upon
reflection. -- s'kat, 22:54:06 05/28/03 Wed
Nice to see you posting again Rahael, missed you. ;-) SK
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> THanks SK! -- Rahael, 01:20:09
05/29/03 Thu
Still stuff I have to say about the previous seasons!!
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Here's the blurb... -- s'kat, 22:59:07 05/27/03
Tue
Here's the snippet so you can decide for yourself:
"How is this season lighter than last? Well, last season
was very much about Buffy doubting herself and the concept of
power, sort of hating herself and fantasizing about relinquishing
power and getting into a really unhealthy relationship because
of that. This season is about coming to terms with power and sharing
it and enjoying it. So, in that respect it's been lighter."
Topel, Fred, "Joss Whedon Interview: Ending Buffy",
Action-Adventure Movies at About.com, April 2003,
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Never thought of it that way... -- Just George, 18:50:20
05/27/03 Tue
Season 4
S'kat: "So Yoko Factor externalized - Buffy vs. SG, in Restless
internalized Buffy vs. SG. In Restless since it is internalized
- we get a greater exploration of the issues that cause the disconnection.
In Yoko Factor we get the symptoms of these issues. Yoko Factor
and Restless are bookends with Primeval serving as the yummy creamy
center."
Never thought of it that way. I suppose that I saw the focus of
Willow, Xander, and Giles dreams as them dealing with their own
fears, with the First Slayer as almost a macguffin providing forward
movement through their dreams. I still suspect that Restless is
more timeless than you do. But I'll watch it with new eyes when
I get to season 4 in my re-watching of all "season finale
arcs."
"Yummy creamy center." You talk funny. :-)
Season 6
S'kat: "I disagree with what you percieve as the core emotional
conflict. You see - I don't see it as Buffy vs. Depression. I
think Depression was a symptom of the conflict, not the core.
Joss Whedon in an interview with Fred Topol of about.com, states
that Buffy's struggle in S6 was with her power."
...
"The emotional arc was Buffy's struggle with power - whether
power is a corrupting influence, an addiction - or something brilliant
and useful that can help others."
Interesting. I'd like to read the interview. I Googled for it,
but nothing came up. Did this one get transcribed as well?
Without reading the interview, I hope this wasn't a bit of reverse
engineering on JW's part. He made a big deal of Season 7 begin
about power. If Season 6 was about Buffy rejecting her power,
than the theme was buried too deep for me. Thanks for brining
it to the surface. It does help tie some of the disparate stories
together.
My assumption has been that Season 6 was about misplaced anger.
Buffy hated being back in the world. Her best friends were responsible
for bringing her back. Buffy wanted to hate them for casing her
so much pain. But she couldn't. So Buffy hated herself instead.
She wanted to punish them. But she couldn't (except in 'Normal
Again'). So Buffy punished Spike. Notice that Buffy's big turnaround
in attitude occurs after she gets her "inner revenge"
on Willow and Xander in 'Normal Again'.
Thanks for the shout out about the Marti interview. I found it
in the archives. It was a fun read.
One suggestion, if VOY eats your posts, try writing them in a
word processor first and then pasting them into VOY when you are
done. That way, if VOY eats the post, you can just past your original
back into VOY and post it again. I hate to think of all the cool
shadowkatty comments we may have lost over the years. :-)
Protect your prose! Practice safe posting!
Thanks for all the comments.
-JG
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Re: Never thought of it that way... -- s'kat,
23:22:40 05/27/03 Tue
One suggestion, if VOY eats your posts, try writing them in
a word processor first and then pasting them into VOY when you
are done. That way, if VOY eats the post, you can just past your
original back into VOY and post it again. I hate to think of all
the cool shadowkatty comments we may have lost over the years.
:-)
Protect your prose! Practice safe posting!
LOL! Thanks. Actually the more lengthy stuff I write in word first,
but replies I write in the voy posting box and sometimes just
forget to copy before sending. Lazy I guess.
Interesting. I'd like to read the interview. I Googled for
it, but nothing came up. Did this one get transcribed as well?
Without reading the interview, I hope this wasn't a bit of reverse
engineering on JW's part. He made a big deal of Season 7 begin
about power. If Season 6 was about Buffy rejecting her power,
than the theme was buried too deep for me. Thanks for brining
it to the surface. It does help tie some of the disparate stories
together.
Read my response to Sophist above - where I posted the link and
the snippet.
Actually I share yours and Sophists concerns on some of this:
My assumption has been that Season 6 was about misplaced anger.
Buffy hated being back in the world. Her best friends were responsible
for bringing her back. Buffy wanted to hate them for casing her
so much pain. But she couldn't. So Buffy hated herself instead.
She wanted to punish them. But she couldn't (except in 'Normal
Again'). So Buffy punished Spike. Notice that Buffy's big turnaround
in attitude occurs after she gets her "inner revenge"
on Willow and Xander in 'Normal Again'.
Yep it was mine too. In all my essays on Season 6, I don't think
I ever realized it was about Power. This leads me to a major complaint
about S6 - S7 : when you create a story, you need to provide your
audience with a road-map, they need to have some idea where you're
headed. No, you don't need to hammar us over the head, or be crystal
clear, and ambiguity is fun, but and huge BUT here - there is
ambiguity and then there is ambiguity - confuse your audience
at your own risk. If the writing is so ambiguous that three sizable
factions of the audience can come up with three different contradictory
analyses of your story and all back their analyses up logically
- then this is a strong hint that you might be a bit too ambiguous.
The fact that one person saw S6 as the dark night of the soul,
another about self-hate, another about power, and another about
dealing with reality and responsibility...and all are confused...says
something I think about the ambiguous nature of the season. Same
thing about S7 - there were one too many episodes that caused
splits in interpretation.
Heck Lies My Parents Told Me and Killer in Me are just two examples.
Now I love ambiguity - I adore it, my favorite tv shows are ambiguous,
I also love debates, but...if it gets to the point that the audience
is confused...or the story has become muddled, then uhm...maybe
something went awry.
That said - TV shows are tough to produce and create.
See my response to Sophist on writers responsibility further down
- on the whole Spike posting thread.
In it - I mention that TV shows are done in 7 days.
One weekend to write a script. Actually sometimes they do it in
15 hours. One day to cast and get set, makeup, stunts, scout locals,
then 7 days to shoot. Can't go over or you end up over budget
which is a very very bad thing - people lose jobs when you go
over budget. The writer is on the set with the director (assuming
they aren't the director), actors are directed to stick to the
script, cast arrives at 4 am Monday and shooting ends 5 am Sat.
Then it goes to editing, and the creator does the final edit.
You get two days off if cast - and go again. The next writer meanwhile
is blocking out next script.
Scripts start as a brain-storming session admist all the writers
- they break down the plot on a huge board. The creator looks
over the board and okays it. Then the writer assigned to it -
makes an outline, that gets okayed. Then the dialogue, that gets
okayed with notes, then revised, that gets okayed - shooting script.
(See Jane Espenson's interview on the Firefly website way back
in the fall)
So try to keep this process in mind while critiquing the shows.
Also keep in mind that during S6 - Whedon was working on Angel
and Firefly. During S7 Whedon was at Firefly, MArti on maternity
leave, and Fury jumped to Angel.
(Succubus Club interview with Fury, with RKK, JE, and DGreenberg,
and Goddard, also interviews with Marti in Buffy MAg. ) Which
may explain why S7 and S6 were the choppiest and most ambiguous
seasons - the production crew was otherwise engaged. ;-)
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> The stuff about power -- lunasea, 08:13:22
05/28/03 Wed
Marti said in an interview that she thought the psychological
underpinning of the show was Joss' exploration of being extraordinary.
This manifests itself as Buffy's power, so ultimately the show
is always about that.
All those things that we saw had power as its underlying cause.
Up in heaven, Buffy doesn't have to worry about using her power.
There is nothing to use it on. Here everything is hard, bright
and violent. The world needs her. She doesn't want to do this.
She feels bad because she doesn't have anything to sing about,
something that makes the world worth fighting for. She is just
going through the motions (wonder what Joss was feeling, having
to work on three shows). She doesn't want to have to fight any
more. She doesn't want to use her power.
In Smashed we get the Slayer's death wish kicking in in a different
way. Instead of seeing her way out, by Spike killing her, she
sees a way out by letting him dominate her. He slays his third
slayer that episode. He even makes reference to it in "Wrecked"
I knew the only thing better than killing a slayer was fu---
This desire not to have power any more sets up all the other things
we have written about. It might be interesting if each of us related
our interpretations back to this underlying theme of power.
Cordy was wrong, sometimes when you scratch the surface, you find
much more than more surface.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> Re: The stuff about power -- Arethusa,
08:45:16 05/28/03 Wed
Up in heaven, Buffy doesn't have to worry about using her power.
There is nothing to use it on. Here everything is hard, bright
and violent. The world needs her. She doesn't want to do this.
She feels bad because she doesn't have anything to sing about,
something that makes the world worth fighting for. She is just
going through the motions (wonder what Joss was feeling, having
to work on three shows). She doesn't want to have to fight any
more. She doesn't want to use her power.
If this were her delimma, she would have resolved it in the finale
by embracing her power (or letting it go, as she finally did).
But instead she embraced her connection to the world, starting
with Dawn. Therefore, her concerns regarding power must be of
a different nature. Since she did embrace her connection, the
problem with power might be how it separated her from everyone
else.
After she returned from heaven, she felt even more disconnected
from the others than before. Her inferiority complex was dominant
(as her superiority complex was dominant in S7). Self-loathing
split her even farther from her friends, and her depression, the
symptom of her problems, deepened. Her depression decreases after
Normal Again, when she makes the conscious decision to reconnect
with her friends and family.
Willow's arrogant use of power lead her to disconnect from her
friends and Tara. Xander was afraid he would abuse his power in
his relationship with Anya. Dawn felt powerless to change the
chaos in her life. The Scoobies lost all connection to each other
in Tabla Rasa. The Troika also used power to further disconnect
themselves from society, making Sunnydale residents sock puppets
in their personal dramas. Sine part of growing up is learning
how to deal with power responsibly and beneficially, power and
its use and abuse could be a theme of S6.
In Smashed we get the Slayer's death wish kicking in in a different
way. Instead of seeing her way out, by Spike killing her, she
sees a way out by letting him dominate her. He slays his third
slayer that episode. He even makes reference to it in "Wrecked"
I knew the only thing better than killing a slayer was fu---.
We have only Spike's word for this and not everything he says
is reliable, especially during battle. What other instances do
you see of Buffy's death wish? Maybe her sacrifice in The Gift,
but I don't think she died because she had a death wish. It was
Dawn or herself at that point, and I think she saw Dawn as a part
of herself that would be able to grow old living a normal life.
She chose life-it just wasn't hers.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> Re: The stuff about power
-- lunasea, 09:59:11 05/28/03 Wed
this were her delimma, she would have resolved it in the finale
by embracing her power
She did. She no longer feels she has to use it to protect Dawn.
She now can use her power to show her the world. This is something
to sing about finally. She is glad to be Slayer.
As she tells the Guide in Intervention "If I have to kill
demons because it makes the world a better place, then I kill
demons, but it's not a gift to anybody." That is how Buffy
sees her Slayer powers, as a burden, something she has to do to
make the world safer. She doesn't want them. She never has.
Her realization in "Grave" is that she can use her power
for something else and it isn't such a burden. The opening scene
of "Lessons" shows what Buffy meant in "Grave."
It is the first season premier, she didn't have to reassert or
reclaim her identity as Slayer.
Her inferiority complex was dominant
Which comes from her power. She is different because of her power.
The power turns her into a monster. She doesn't even want to be
Slaying and is just going through the motions.
Her depression decreases after Normal Again, when she makes
the conscious decision to reconnect with her friends and family.
I thought it was the acceptance that she was the Slayer and not
some normal crazy girl in the hospital that did it. The reconnection
comes AFTER this.
Connection-isolation is a very important running theme on the
show. I think Joss' statement gives us the underlying theme and
the rest is what gets put on top of that. As Marti said, it is
his exploration of being exceptional. One ramification of this
is isolation, which the show does explore. I liked Chosen because
it showed how being extraordinary/having power can be used to
achieve connection.
We have only Spike's word for this and not everything he says
is reliable, especially during battle. What other instances do
you see of Buffy's death wish?
It kicks in at the beginning of FFL. We also see Faith's kick
in in "Five-by-Five." "Five by Five" is very
explict why Faith wants Angel to kill her. The instance where
Buffy goes from fighting Spike to kissing him is very similar
to when Nikki decides to let Spike kill her. It is a complete
surrender to what he wants.
Spike isn't completely right (never is). The Slayer does have
a death wish, but not because she is curious about death because
it is her art. He looks at it from a warrior's perspective. The
Slayer just wants out. She is a human being also. We see it kick
in all the way back in "Prophecy Girl" when she first
hears about the prophecy. Then she returns to her senses when
Angel tries to comfort her.
Another "death" of Buffy was before the Gift in Season
5, when she went catatonic at the end of "Spiral." Think
she would have stopped anyone from killing her then? She came
back in "Bargaining" in a similar state.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> The loose plotting model of TV development
-- Just George, 09:19:57 05/28/03 Wed
s'kat: " Read my response to Sophist above - where I posted
the link and the snippet."
Thank. Found it. I remember reading it now. At the time, I thought
it might be a bit of a fan wank to connect the seasons (can Joss
fan wank?) After watching how S7 ended... Maybe I still feel the
same way. Your power explanation is tempting. Maybe this will
color my next viewing of Season 6.
BTW, FX played 'Normal Again' this morning and I caught the last
10 minutes. Buffy's "You're right. Thank You. Goodbye."
to Joyce make me cry every time. SMG was ON during that episode.
S'kat: "Now I love ambiguity - I adore it, my favorite tv
shows are ambiguous, I also love debates, but...if it gets to
the point that the audience is confused...or the story has become
muddled, then uhm...maybe something went awry."
And I completely agree that Season 6 and Season 7 were a bit too
ambiguous for my taste.
S'kat: "That said - TV shows are tough to produce and create."
Absolutely! The pace is grueling. The fact that the shows are
not completely incoherent is a testament to the craft of hundreds
of people working their tails off week after week.
On the other hand, the loose plotting of BTVS is a choice that
Joss and the production company made. Other shows have different
procedures. For example, in a plot driven show like '24' the entire
plot season arc for each character is laid out in great detail
before the first script is written. BTVS has a looser model. The
writers can take advantage of great performances, happy writing
accidents, and casting opportunities. They can also drop plot
threads and forget characters for episodes at a time.
When the loose plot model works (S2 & S3 & S5) it works well.
When it doesn't (S4 & S6 & S7) things can get... confused.
-JG
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> Yep. Completely agree on all of the
above. -- s'kat, 10:31:27 05/28/03 Wed
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Re: Agree and something else -- sdev, 00:03:30
05/28/03 Wed
"My assumption has been that Season 6 was about misplaced
anger." I agree. Plus something more- almost like a self-fulfilling
type of thing.
Buffy tells Spike in After Life that she was dragged out of Heaven
and that this is Hell because it is so violent. She proceeds for
the rest of the Season to act at her most violent and least moral.
It is almost as if her return to this hell-on-earth removed any
behavioral restraints. They broke the rules in dragging her back,
the world is a hell-hole anyway, I will act according to its lack
of rules and viciousness.
Also she is furious at the Scoobies for bringing her back and
she scapegoats Spike. Initially she turns to him for comfort,
but he then becomes the nearest body for her pent up anger. Also,
since he is "a disgusting thing" she absolves herself
from guilt for her treatment of him including abusing her slayer
strength by beating him up.
For Willow and Buffy it is a season of- what dark place can my
power take me. Both sink into irresponsibility and wrenching immorality.
Both abuse their gifts- Buffy's excuse is the loss of Heaven and
Willow's is the loss of her lover. Both have to embrace life and
just roles again to find their way back-- Buffy turns to Dawn
who she loves but neglected and Willow embraces Xander another
kind of love.
On the subject of Season 2 and Becoming which seems to be a ubiquitous
favorite:
The theme is simpler and in resolution Buffy acts alone. There
is only one villain, Angelus, who only Buffy can defeat and does.
This one has the lines of a classic Greek Tragedy with the Scoobies
acting as a virtual chorus. She is damned either way- loss of
her lover or loss of the world. She makes the heart-breaking right
choice. And we get catharsis plus all ends tied up. (save one
which comes back to haunt in Season 7- Xander's betrayal). There
are no subplots to dilute the purity of impact. She is the tragic
hero who ends up alone.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Re: Wrote this huge response but voy ate it-Question
-- sdev, 23:22:20 05/27/03 Tue
Where do you see this?
"This is symbolized by her unhealthy relationship with Spike
- where she allows him to take a dominant role and wants to be
punished."
You see Spike as dominating and punishing Buffy?
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Re: Wrote this huge response but voy ate it-Question
-- s'kat, 23:30:48 05/27/03 Tue
Uhm no, that's not what I saw. Read - the response I gave Sophist
and Just George.
Personally I saw Buffy as dominating and punishing Spike, but
that's just me ;-)
No, Buffy states to Holden Webster that she was both a monster
to him but at the same time she almost allowed him to take her
over. CwDP. She wanted to be punished. Not loved.
And Spike states to her in NLM that she took her self-loathing
out on him - used him to actualize it and that she needs men to
hurt her to be the slayer - this is the writers way I think of
telling the audience what they
were up to last year. And yes, I could see some of that - in Dead
Things, Gone, Smashed, Wrecked, and AYW...but I also believe it
could be seen another way. The writing on Spike was extreemly
ambiguous in S6. Not that I mind ambiguity - actually I love it,
masochistic that way.
But it can be very hard on a tv audience, and confusing.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> Re: Yes that's how I see it (Season 7 Spoilers)
-- sdev, 00:32:21 05/28/03 Wed
She almost allowed Spike to take her over by turning into such
a violent person herself- unjustifiably abusive to him. She misused
her Slayer strength against him. He brought out the dark in her
and she used it to hurt him. But I don't think that he ever dominated
her, with the exception of the AR.
I also never felt the issue of her hiding the relationship with
Spike from her friends was adequately resolved in Season 6. I
believe that was a major Buffy flaw which was resolved to her
credit in Season 7 when she stuck by Spike in the face of great
opposition and pressure. Willow had the courage to come out with
being gay, but Buffy hid her relationship with Spike from all.
This was actually a recurring theme which was brought up in Season
3 when Buffy hid Angel's return. She lacked certain strength to
stand up to peer pressure. Probably because she was so different
by being the Slayer, already such an outsider, the deck was already
so stacked against her having friends, that she bent to their
judgement instead of standing up to it.
I believed when Spike said in Normal Again- they'll either understand
or... She should have had that courage and backbone. When ultimately
they found out, they accomodated.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> Spike didn't dominate Buffy? --
lunsea, 08:25:52 05/28/03 Wed
That's all their relationship was.
Starts with "Wrecked" when she gets up to go. At this
point she is able to resist, but has to reassert herself several
times. Marti is the goddess. She wrote them perfectly.
In "Gone" Buffy reasserts herself by getting her hair
cut, because he dominates he so completely physically. There is
a temporarily flip of the situation when Buffy becomes invisible,
but Spike throws Buffy out.
DMP: Buffy doesn't want to have sex with Spike, but ends up going
into the alley with him.
Dead Things: The handcuffs and the Balcony scene is pretty self-explanatory
as to who's in control
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> It was mutual but Buffy was dominant.
And from the DVD commentary... -- curious, 11:17:20 05/28/03
Wed
Joss said in the Season 6 overview (paraphrasing)- "Buffy
wanted to be loved, to be touched in that way but she also wanted
to be punished and punish Spike."
Buffy was the SLAYER - the stronger party. In Drew Greenberg's
commentary for Smashed, he points out that Buffy kisses first.
Buffy is almost always the aggressor when it comes to sex. (except
, of course, for the AR) She could certainly have stopped the
balconey sex if she wanted to. The point was that she wanted sex
and to be loved but was ashamed that she wanted sex/ lusted after
someone that was unacceptable to her intellectually. Spike was
her willing soddin' sex slave - not the other way around. He just
figured out that sex was a way to get to her. She broke it off
when she had the face the fact that she was using him. Buffy was
clearly dominant in the relationship - and was ashamed of herself
- for lusting after someone she should hate and for abusing her
power.
I'll try to transcribe some of the Season 6 DVD commentary - very
interesting. Marti makes it clear that they were exploring lust
- Buffy's lust.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> [> Ever play power games?
-- lunasea, 11:46:43 05/28/03 Wed
They can be fun. There really is no dominant and submissive because
both parties can technically end it at any time and it is mutual.
Even so, in the game, one tells the other what to do and the other
"begrudingly" does it. That was Spuffy. Spike "tricked"
or "seduced" Buffy and she "fell" for it.
It absolved her of some of the responsibility. She always protested
first and almost always gave in.
Know what a true sadist does to a mashochist? Ties them up and
does nothing :-)
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> huh? -- curious,
12:37:09 05/28/03 Wed
Not sure what you mean here. Can't tell if you agree or disagree
with my point.
The point I was trying to make was that Buffy was lusting after
Spike - for better or worse. Enjoying sex and using it to punish
and be punished. There were certainly power tripping and S&M games
going on but Buffy was not a victim here. Spike was not "dominating"
her. She was essentially getting what she wanted from him - even
though she could bring herself to admit that's what she wanted-
i.e. violent sex with no strings attached. I don't think she loved
him - I don't even think she liked him very much. But she liked
how he made her feel - physically. Lust without love. Power games
back and forth but she had the upper hand. And then she felt ashamed
of that. If she really didn't want to have sex with Spike, she
could have simply staked him - the ultimate abuse of her power.
She dreamed about it in "Dead Things". She broke off
the relationship eventually - another piece of evidence that she
was in control of the situation. Spike was clearly in the "weaker"
position.
I don't buy that she was so under his thrall that she had no choice
in "Spuffy" ( a term I really loathe). I give Buffy
more credit than that. I think it directly relates to the cookie
dough speech in Chosen. Buffy could have "in the moment"
relationships for the time being. She finally realized that she
could have relationships/sex with people she was not necessarily
going to have fat grandchildren with. She doesn't have to cut
herself off from her lusty side while she is finishing the baking
process. But the relationship with Spike was certainly destructive
and negative - the pendulum had swung to far from her unrealistic
teenage fantasy of "love". But this unhealthy experience
helped her grow.
The thing that got murky with Spike was that her black and white
morality would never allow her to "love" a soulless
creature or allow casual sex the way Faith does. And the fact
that Spike loved her (albeit in an unhealthy and selfish way)
and was an ally made things even murkier. If anything, she got
a lot more out of the relationship than Spike did - even if he
didn't see it that way.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Two very interesting
posts curious, thanks for them. -- s'kat, 13:48:53 05/28/03
Wed
I largely agree with your analysis on this. I think it was a story
about lust, which Buffy couldn't quite deal with because she was
still holding on to teenaged romantic notions of love. The transistion
between adolescent love and adult love, was the in between stage
of lust. When it's all about the sex and how great the person
makes you feel,
the moment so to speak, but after that wonderful thrill reality
hits you and you feel somewhat ashamed and empty.
I think the contrast between Buffy's relationship with Spike
in S7 and her relationship with him in S6 is fitting and also
made clear by the speech he gives her in End of Days, where he
says the night they just held each other and slept was the most
connected he felt to anyone. The sex wasn't a connection so much
as a drug. Used in some ways to contrast with how Willow was using
her magic to make herself feel better - a drug. But both women
had to come to realize that magic and sex in of themselves weren't
bad, it was how they were using them and what they were doing
to others that was.
What continues to fascinate me about the B/S (and I too find Spuffy
a loathsome word, same as Auffy, Baffy, and Bangel, or Bander,
Xaffy,...ugh ship words)is the noir underpinings of it. How we
flip from the "male gaze" where the devil woman uses
her sexuality to snare the male as seen on Ats with Lilah and
Wes or Cordy and Connor, to the female gaze where the demon male
uses his sexuality to ensare her attention. Then how she's in
the power role - using him as the sex slave, able to break up
with him at any time, clearly capable of fighting him off - as
she ultimately does in SR - where she knocks him across the room.
Very interesting tact. Some films to watch that also explore this
but not nearly as well are: Betrayed, Love Crimes, Blue Steel,
Siesta, Impulse, Lady Beware, and Unfaithful - if you are interested.
To my knowledge Btvs is the only prime tv show to ever attempt
to do female neo noir and go as dark as it did, which may be partly
why the B/S relationship was more fascinating to me than the others,
less predictable and less standard tv fair. I'd never seen anyone
try it before.
Oh and if it's not too much trouble - I'd love to see a transcript
of Smashed DVD commentary. (I get off on that stuff).
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Two
very interesting posts curious, thanks for them. -- curious,
14:37:14 05/28/03 Wed
Thanks. I really like your postings on noir. I've seen some of
the movies listed and will check some out.
I'll try to transcribe the interesting parts of the Smashed commentary
one of these days. But not all of it was that interesting. Drew
Greenberg was a little too awestruck by his new job to be very
informative. I found the Season 6 overview and the panel discussion
were more interesting. Marti Noxon explicitly says that they were
exploring LUST. I'm still plowing through my first viewing of
the Season 6 DVDs and have picked up little odds and ends.
The most interesting tidbit so far (well, to me) from the commentaries
was that my favorite scene in "Hell's Bells" - the Buffy
and Spike post break-up interaction was written by Joss Whedon.
The director said that Buffy was both titilated and humiliated
when Spike told her he would be taking his date home. hmmm....
The sex wasn't a connection so much as a drug.
JM stated in some interview that he thought of himself as heroin
to Buffy. That's how he played it. (Although he backtracked and
said that was in his head - not in the script.)
Then how she's in the power role - using him as the sex slave,
able to break up with him at any time, clearly capable of fighting
him off - as she ultimately does in SR - where she knocks him
across the room. Very interesting tact.
Exactly. Neither the victim nor the villian. She used Spike but
he didn't feel used until he regained his soul. Very interesting.
He was just a demon whose feelings she could ignore. The soul
complicated things for both of them. Much more interesting and
complex than "Spike was a bad guy and she made a mistake."
or "Buffy was a bitch to poor Spike." It was neither
and both. They both got what they thought they wanted - but it
was empty and propelled them to look for a more meaningful connection
- eventually. It was painful in the short run but extremely valuable
in the longer run.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I
know I'm missing something here ... -- Liz, 16:16:57 05/28/03
Wed
I'm rather new here, so I'm sure you've stated this before, but
-- how did you get Season 6 DVDs? AFAIK, they're only up to Season
4, and that's being released next month.
- Liz
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
UK DVDs go through BTVS S6 (they require a region free DVD
player in the US) -- Just George, 18:33:19 05/28/03 Wed
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
Season Six is available in the UK, probably elsewhere, but
not the US -- Indri, 18:49:13 05/28/03 Wed
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
Season 6 in UK and Austrailia on May 12 -- curious, 19:28:31
05/28/03 Wed
The DVDs were available in Region 4 (Austrailia) and Region 2
(UK and Europe I think) as of May 12 or so. I am in the US and
got them from AmazonUK. The price was a bit lower than what is
listed because Americans don't pay the VAT tax. I think the Austrailian
discs are a little cheaper but the shipping was higher.
Should I start a a new thread about Region free DVD players? A
tech geek acquaintance recommended a cheapo player from Walmart.com
(Norcent DP-300 for $50) that plays all of my discs much better
than my more expensive DVD player. I had to plug in a magic code
to make it region free so now it will play anything. I am a new
convert to these things and am no expert but it sure beats waiting
2 years for the DVDs to come to the US.
What can I say? I'm impatient and I have very few other vices.
I hear Season 7 may be out as early as October, 2003.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Interesting read of Restless -- lunasea, 07:48:10
05/28/03 Wed
but Buffy manages to over-power her inner demon/shadow and
reconnects them.
I see her keeping them from being killed, but they aren't reconnected.
Buffy enters the desert because she really isn't looking for her
friends. She is looking for answers, answers I'm not sure she
has found even as the series wraps up. Those answers will bake
her cookie.
Restless is necessary to balance Primeval. Restless doesn't just
show what causes the disconnection, but that they aren't one and
shouldn't be. It is interesting that W/G/X are in each other's
dreams, but they are missing from Buffy's only appearing on the
Tarot Card. Buffy wants her friends back, but she can never really
have them. It is part of growing up. We have to seperate/individuate
and find some form of interdependancy, not killing our friends,
but not conjoining with them either.
Buffy doesn't overpower her inner-demon, but awakens it as we
learn later. She starts to hunt more and it leads her to question
the origins of her power, which allows Dracula to enthrall her.
The final words of "Restless" show she hasn't beaten
anything. We see Buffy alone standing in the threshold. She will
have to cross that threshold alone when she is ready.
Thanks you for sharing your perspective.
[> [> [> That isn't
what the finales have been about to me -- lunasea, 06:48:56
05/28/03 Wed
Sometimes I guess I'm just a fan/geek who wants to get back
to the butt kicking.
The butt kicking is just an exclamation point on something. The
demons represent the internal struggles of Buffy and the real
conclusion is her defeating her internal demon. Sometimes the
battle is even anti-climatic.
Season 1: The real conclusion: "No. No, I feel strong. I
feel different." Killing the Master is just the logical extension
of this.
Season 2: "Me." Defeating Angelus and killing Angel
is the logical extension of this.
Season 3: "Drink Me." This leads to the coma-vision
where Buffy learns how to defeat the Mayor. Faith shooting Angel
brilliantly tied the arc with Angel and the arc with Faith together
into an amazing finale. This season is by far the most tightly
written and includes the addition of some excellent writers.
Season 4: The hug at the bottom of the elevator shaft. Restless
is necessary after Primeval. Primeval binds the Scoobies together
and Restless separates them. In a season about finding the balance
between connection and independance, they couldn't leave it with
the conjoining spell.
After this point, things get a bit more spiritual and the action
climax involves Buffy's realization and doesn't need an exclamation
point. It is the exclamation point, with the defeat of the demon
preceding it.
Season five: Glory/Ben is defeated, but the realization comes
afterwards.
Season six: Xander defeats Willow, but the realization comes afterwards.
Season seven: The first's plans are foiled, but the realization
is the last thing shown.
True. 'The Prom' is one of my favorites. It is by no means
'Go Fish'. I kept it out of the finale arc because it didn't do
much to advance the Buffy vs. Faith / Mayor arc. But it is a lovely
story.
The finale isn't just Buffy vs Faith/Mayor. It is also Buffy and
Angel. Season 3 was so amazing because these two storyline collided
so well. Prom is very important for two things, the Angel story
and the reaction of the students to Buffy and their lives, which
sets up what happens in Graduation Day. The loss of innocence,
symbolized by the kids actually fighting and knowing about the
demons, is really set up with what Jonathan says in Prom. Is there
really a such thing as a filler episode in the Buffyverse?
Those that are effectively stand alone (Hush, The Body) and
those that depend on and advance the main plot (Becoming I & II,
Once More With Feeling).
How much does "Hush" make sense if you don't understand
what is going on with Riley and Buffy or with Willow and Tara?
The Body looses all impact if you don't know about Joyce. One
of the most powerful scenes is with Anya. That looses a lot if
you don't know her character. I've shown OMWF to people that have
never seen the show and they can appreciate it from a purely musical/entertainment
perspective. Becoming is the first episode my aunt saw, and it
is great just from an adventure stand point. Need I say two words:
sword fight.
All episodes are greatly enriched in context of at least knowing
the characters and each one can sort of stand alone.
[> [> [> [> Re:
That isn't what the finales have been about to me -- Just
George, 08:56:29 05/28/03 Wed
JG: "Sometimes I guess I'm just a fan/geek who wants to get
back to the butt kicking."
Lunasea: "The butt kicking is just an exclamation point on
something. The demons represent the internal struggles of Buffy
and the real conclusion is her defeating her internal demon. Sometimes
the battle is even anti-climatic."
Agreed. Mostly I was trying to be funny and failing. Although
I like the butt kicking parts of BTVS quite a bit!
JG: " 'The Prom' is one of my favorites. It is by no means
'Go Fish'. I kept it out of the finale arc because it didn't do
much to advance the Buffy vs. Faith / Mayor arc. But it is a lovely
story."
Lunasea: "The finale isn't just Buffy vs Faith/Mayor. It
is also Buffy and Angel."
And Buffy vs. the Watchers Council, and Buffy vs. Authority, and
Buffy growing up, and Buffy connecting with her community, and...
Lots of themes. In the beginning I made a radical oversimplification
and reduced each season to the emotional conflict that resonated
with me the most. There are lots of other, more complex and more
complete analyses.
-JG
[> Re: How did if end? (Comparing
/ ranking Season finale arcs from Seasons 1-7) (long) -- shambleau,
19:00:38 05/26/03 Mon
I think the simplicity of the solution/reconciliation at the end
of season 4 is deceiving. Nothing was truly resolved. They continued
to drift away from each other in the following seasons. Way of
the world, as Spike said.
[> [> Re: How did if
end? (Comparing / ranking Season finale arcs from Seasons 1-7)
(long) -- Just George, 08:51:08 05/27/03 Tue
Shambleau: "I think the simplicity of the solution/reconciliation
at the end of season 4 is deceiving. Nothing was truly resolved.
They continued to drift away from each other in the following
seasons. Way of the world, as Spike said."
Hmmm. By Season 6 on I'll agree with you that the Scoobies drifted
apart. But Season 5 had some very strong Scooby vibes (Family,
Checkpoint, and the entire season finale arc). The reconciliation
may not have been complete at the end of Season 4, but I think
the opening shot of Season 5 (all the Scoobies together on the
beach) was a "show not tell" to the audience that "group
drift" was not going to be a dominant emotional theme for
the season.
-JG
[> [> [> Re: How did
if end? (Comparing / ranking Season finale arcs from Seasons 1-7)
(long) -- shambleau, 12:00:42 05/27/03 Tue
Oh, I agree that group drift wasn't prominent in Season 5, and
wasn't the focus, but it was going on underneath. The pairing
off into couples is an example. It's a slow process, but it eats
into your time with friends in real life and it did on the show,
too. All of the core Scoobs were more emotionally focused on their
SOs than each other. Of course, if you consider the SOs as Scoobs,
then my point's not valid. But they weren't in on the spell, so
I'm not counting them in that sense, love them all though I do.
And even during the summer, Giles had been planning to leave,
despite the bonding that had gone on in Primeval. He stayed because
he felt needed again, but I think a desire to leave lay underneath
the stated reason of letting Buffy grow up that he used to go
home in Season 6. And I wish that desire had been brought more
to the fore. It would have made his leaving seem more layered,
and would have made his actions this year more understandable.
As for the finale arc, yes, there were strong Scoobie vibes. But
the arc had, bubbling underneath, Buffy's growing isolation from
the group, the beginning of Willow's split from Tara (Willow's
helping Dawn with the resurrection spell in Forever and the argument
in Tough Love, where Tara expressed unease about Willow's increasing
powers) and the initial stages of Dawn's acting out.
[> Re: How did if end? (Comparing
/ ranking Season finale arcs from Seasons 1-7) (long) -- skeeve, 15:16:19
05/27/03 Tue
From Just George:
Number 4: Season 1
Buffy: " I don't care! I don't care. Giles, I'm sixteen years
old. I don't wanna die."
12 Prophecy Girl
The central emotional conflict is Buffy vs. her responsibilities.
Compared to the modern multi-episode finales this single hour
is way too short. However I like to think the conflicts were concentrated
and effectively realized. Great lines abound. The twist where
everyone misinterprets the prophesy (which turns out to be true
in every particular) was very clever.
Me:
My recollection is that the prophecy was not true in every particular.
Buffy violated the prophecy by knowingly going to the child and
having him lead her to the Master.
[> [> The Prophecies
-- Just George, 15:48:15 05/27/03 Tue
skeeve: "My recollection is that the prophecy was not true
in every particular.
Buffy violated the prophecy by knowingly going to the child and
having him lead her to the Master."
The first prophecy from: 'Never Kill A Boy On The First Date'
(thanks to Psyche):
Master: "And there will be a time of crisis, of worlds hanging
in the balance. And in this time shall come the Anointed, the
Master's great warrior. And the Slayer will not know him, will
not stop him, and he will lead her into Hell.' As it is written,
so shall it be. Five will die, and from their ashes the Anointed
shall rise. The Brethren of Aurelius shall greet him and usher
him to his immortal destiny."
In ' Never Kill A Boy On The First Date' Buffy did not know the
Anointed, and did not stop him. Five died and the Anointed rose.
The Brethren of Aurelius greeted the Anointed and brought him
to the Master for his immortal destiny. In 'Prophecy Girl', the
Anointed led Buffy into the Hellmouth or effectively into hell.
Every particular happened, just not all in the same episode.
The second prophecy from 'Prophecy Girl':
Giles: "Listen. Some prophecies are, are a bit dodgy. They're,
they're mutable. Buffy herself has, has thwarted them time and
time again, but this is the Codex. There is nothing in it that
does not come to pass."
Angel: "Then you're reading it wrong."
Giles: "I wish to God I were! But it's very plain! Tomorrow
night Buffy will face the Master, and she will die."
This prophecy comes true as well. The next night Buffy meets the
Master and dies.
But everyone gets the final outcome wrong. The first hint that
the Master was also misinterpreting the prophecy is in 'Prophecy
Girl' when Buffy meets the Anointed and says, "I know who
you are." She didn't in NKABOTFD and fulfilled the prophecy;
she did in PG and ends up winning the day.
-JG
[> Killed by Death and Go
Fish -- lunasea, 06:16:40 05/28/03 Wed
Both episodes are very important to Xander, which sets up his
attitude in Becoming. They are both Monster of the Week episodes,
but they also very important to the finale and couldn't have been
any earlier. Xander's arc Season 2 is an interesting one to trace.
[> [> Interesting, lunasea!
Never really thought of it that way before. -- Rob, 09:21:16
05/28/03 Wed
[> [> [> Neither did
I, until I started tracing Xander's development -- lunasea,
10:09:13 05/28/03 Wed
After "Empty Places" I started taking a really deep
look at Xander to see what got us to this point. I posted part
1 of that essay, which is everything up to Suprise and I'm still
working on Part 2 which is Innocence to Becoming. I'm almost done,
but here is the part about Killed By Death
Killed by Death" really states Xander/Angel's new dynamic
and is the transition from Xander's concern being Buffy to it
being the mission. He does this to compensate for his feelings
for Buffy. "Killed By Death" is one of the more important
episodes to Xander's arc.
Angelus: (pauses) Buffy's White Knight. You still love her. (leans
in close) It must just eat you up that I got there first.
Xander: (fighting his nervousness) You're gonna die. And I'm gonna
be there.
Xander's goal now is to see Angel dead. Before he was supporting
Buffy in what she had to do. It was still about Buffy and Willow
supported him. Xander is now going to focus on seeing that Angel
is killed. At the beginning of the episode, Xander is the one
that asks if Buffy is ok and is the one that leads the attack
against Angelus when he has Buffy pinned. It could be argued that
Xander is starting to see that the only way to protect Buffy is
to get her to kill Angel, but in the coming episodes he loses
this focus and concentrates instead on just killing Angel. Even
the flow of the episode shows this. Prior to Angelus showing up,
Xander is the one who is most concerned about Buffy (Willow assumes
the role). After this, his focus switches to helping fight the
monster. He is trying to get over his obsession about Buffy by
focusing on the mission. Cordelia even calls him on his attraction
to Buffy. Xander's feelings for Buffy never go away. Instead he
has to find a way to deal with them. He transfers the feelings
he has for Buffy to her mission. (I will deal with this more when
we get to "Hells Bells")
[> [> [> [> Also,
in 'Go Fish'... -- Rob, 10:43:05 05/28/03 Wed
...we see the first example of Xander enacting a plan completely
on his own initiative. He joins the swim team, in order to investigate,
without telling any of his friends first. The fact that Xander
is starting to make such decisions as this himself, without consulting
the others, helps set up his lie to Buffy in "Becoming II."
Rob
[> [> [> [> lunasea,
you mind if I add this post to my 'Killed by Death' and 'Go Fish'
annotations? -- Rob, 10:45:23 05/28/03 Wed
[> [> [> [> [>
Sorry one more question lol! -- Rob, 10:52:13 05/28/03
Wed
Where do you think the events of Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered
fit into the flow of Xander's season 2 character arc that you're
working out?
Rob
[> [> [> [> [>
[> one more answer -- lunasea, 11:36:26 05/28/03
Wed
and you don't have to apologize. :-)
I actually left off BBB, because I am dealing more with Xander's
role as heart and glue that keeps the Scoobies together. It doesn't
develop him, so much as show what he is. He sees what it is he
wants from Buffy and finally starts to realize that he isn't going
to get it. What is important to the arc is that Buffy starts to
see Xander as admirable and not just some jealous jerk that wants
her. This episode leads into "Passion" where Xander
has some harsh words to say about Angel. These words can't just
be dismissed by jealousy and Buffy really has to look at what
he says.
The episode is important to the Cordy arc, but that isn't something
I am discussing much at all. Xander is pretty complicated character
when you start to get into him.
[> [> [> [> [>
No problem. Anything I do is public domain, as far as I'm concerned
-- lunasea, 11:16:55 05/28/03 Wed
I'm honored to be included.
The full post of Surprise to Revelation should be up this evening.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Looking forward to it. And thanks! -- Rob, 11:30:00
05/28/03 Wed
Alternate
'Chosen' Script - did we discuss this? -- Sofdog, 02:29:32
05/26/03 Mon
Here's an alternate script for Chosen. It is pretty interesting,
and illuminating. Frankly, I would like to have seen this version
filmed:http://www.buffy.nu/article.php3?id_article=731
Highlighted differences:
Quote
"CALEB/FIRST
I will overrun this earth.
BUFFY
You know how many people have said that to me ?
CALEB/FIRST
I do, since they all had a small part of me in them. Whereas I
have all of me in me, so I like my chances somewhat better. And
when my army outnumbers the humans on this earth the scales will
tip and I will be made flesh.
BUFFY
(realizing)
I'm not afraid of you.
CALEB/FIRST
Then why aren't you asleep in your dead lover's arms ?
She looks over at Spike, doesn't answer.
CALEB/FIRST (CONT'D)
'Cause he can't help you. Nor Faith nor your friends... certainly
not your little wannaslay brigade. None of those girlies will
ever know real power unless you're dead. You know the drill :
He morphs into Buffy herself, coming close to say :
BUFFY/FIRST
Into every generation, a Slayer is born. One girl in all the world.
She alone will have the strength and skill to fight the... wait.
But then there were two. Well that's not how the prophecy goes.
Buffy takes this in, says nothing.
MASTER/FIRST
Funny thing about prophecies, they don't always tell you the whole
story.
GLORY/FIRST
The hardest thing about this world is living in it, ain't that
the truth Slayer ? Miles to go... Little miss muffet, counting
down...
MAYOR/FIRST
>From 7-3-0. Your gift was death.
(beat)
But your friends took their receipt, went to customer service
and got an exchange.
ANGEL/FIRST
You should've stayed in the ground, slayer.
BUFFY
It's not my fault.
ANGEL/FIRST
Then whose is it ? You think you know, what you are, what's to
come- You haven't even begun...You could fix it all, you know.
BUFFY
And you're going to tell me how ?
ANGEL/FIRST
Your gift is death.
BUFFY
If I die...another will take my place.
ANGEL/FIRST
When are you gonna learn. This isn't about you. This was never
about you. (beat) The blood-cry, the penetrating wound.
BUFFY/FIRST
I am destruction. Absolute. Alone. (beat, waiting for Buffy) Where's
your snappy comeback ?
BUFFY
(softly) You're right.
BUFFY/FIRST
Mmm. Not your best.
SPIKE
I'm drowning in footwear !
Buffy looks over at Spike, who wakes with a start. She looks back
to Spike, who shakes it off :
SPIKE (CONT'D)
Weird dream.
She doesn't answer.
SPIKE (CONT'D)
Buffy ? Is something wrong ?
She takes her time looking back at him, something quietly building
in her.
BUFFY
No. Yes. I just realized something. Something that really never
occurred to me before.
He sits up, quizzical.
BUFFY (CONT'D)
We're gonna win. "
********************************************
"BUFFY (CONT'D)
But this isn't about wishes. This is about choices. I never had
one. I was chosen. And I accept that. I'm not asking you to accept
anything. I'm asking you to make your own choice. I believe we
can beat this evil -- not when it comes, not after its army is
ready, but now. Tomorrow morning I'm opening the Seal. I'm going
down into the Hellmouth and I'm going to finish it once and for
all.
We see the gang as Buffy continues :
BUFFY (CONT'D)
I've got strong allies : warriors, charms, sorcerers, and I'll
need them all. But I'll also need you. Every single one of you.
So now you're asking yourself, "What makes this different
? What makes us anything more than a bunch of girls getting picked
off one by one ?" It's true none of you has the power Faith
and I have.
(she glances at Dawn) I think both Faith and I (beat, should she
?) and Dawn... would have to die for a new one to be called,
(the potentials react, Buffy hurries to continue) and we can't
even be sure that girl is in this room...
KENNEDY
What do you mean, Dawn would have to die ?
BUFFY (hesitant)
When I died, the second time. No new slayer was called. Because
Dawn was me...is me. The monks who sent her here made her from
me and now the line moves through all three of us. That's the
rule... The mystical forces surrounding the Chosen ones have been
destablized and we can't fix them. The line is vulnerable and
we can't put things back the way they were. So we're going to
change the way things are. Here's the part where you make a choice.
And we lay in a SERIES OF IMAGES to be INTERCUT with the living
room scene. Some of Buffy's speech we see, some we just hear over
the images. What she has to say is this :
BUFFY (CONT'D)
What if you could have that power ? Now. All of you. In every
generation one Slayer is born because a bunch of guys that died
thousands of years ago made up that rule. They were powerful men.
(points to Willow) This woman is more powerful than all of them
combined. So I say we change the rules. I say my power should
be our power. Tomorrow Willow will use the essence of this scythe,
that contains the energy and history of so many Slayers, to change
our destiny.
(looks to Dawn) Every girl who could have the power, will have
the power. Who can stand up, will stand up. Every one of you,
and girls we've never known, they will have strength they never
dreamed of, and more than that, they will have each other. Slayers.
Every one of us. The line will no longer move through me, it hasn't
for a long time. It will move through all of us. Right now. Make
your choice. Are you ready to be strong? "
[> Re: Alternate 'Chosen'
Script - did we discuss this? -- skyMatrix, 03:19:11 05/26/03
Mon
Wow.
Is that for real? Because, although I've appreciated "Chosen"
more on the second viewing, I would also have liked that version
better. Maybe they weren't able to get Clare Kramer, Mark Metcalf
and Harry Groener once again, but it would have been nice to see
the First flex its muscle more in its last appearance. Maybe they
just wanted to keep those scenes shorter, although I would have
accepted cuts to the Angel scenes and/or the battle scenes in
order to lengthen these scnes to what you've posted.
Furthermore, although Joss has said in interviews that the Slayer
line goes (or now, went through) Faith rather than Buffy, we never
saw this confirmed (although it's clear that if the line did go
through Buffy, we would have met a third slayer sometime during
Season 7). Not only does the extended second scene explain what's
up with the Slayer line, but it expands on it and gives a new
importance to Dawn. The downside, of course, being that more people
on the Internet would complain about Buffy's logical leaps ("they
made her out of me" was mocked as a plot hole at the time
of "The Gift," after all). Maybe Joss decided that there
was no need to clear up the Slayer line since he was making it
irrelevant anyway! Who knows.
In conclusion, tell me where you got this! Thanks.
[> Pretty obvious Fanwank
here -- Rook, 07:26:16 05/26/03 Mon
Reading through the script, it becomes obvious that it's just
the original script gone through by a fan and had bits and pieces
added or altered. Most telling is that at the end, whoever wrote
it forgot to change the attribution for a Xander line that they
switched to Anya:
XANDER
(welling up)
That's my guy, always doing the stupid thing.
I think that even the original poster has realized at this point
that it was a fake.
[> [> Re: Pretty obvious
Fanwank here -- skyMatrix, 12:35:35 05/26/03 Mon
Arrgh, I've been had! Well, I didn't actually notice the link
to the "full script." I like to think that if I had
read the whole thing, I would have been more suspicious. ;)
[> [> [> Well, at
least it made Andrews remark about Anya's heroism more visual.
-- WickedBuffy, 17:09:49 05/26/03 Mon
[> [> [> [> Re:
Well, at least it made Andrews remark about Anya's heroism more
visual. -- skyMatrix, 20:23:11 05/26/03 Mon
So they killed Xander instead of Anya, which is interesting. Although
I didn't feel that Xander (in the real version) was too callous
about Anya's death, reading this fanwank more closely, I did like
there being more of a moment for those who died (Xander/Anya and
Spike) before they start the mall banter. It just barely worked
w/o it, but it would have been better to have something like that.
On the other hand, what's with the "Why didn't I die?"
line given to Anya? She would never say that! And I can't even
tell whether Andrew dies or not in the fanwank version. He just
disappears... very odd.
[> Check Psyche's --
Darby, 09:18:45 05/26/03 Mon
This looks to be excerpts from the shooting script, more or less.
It's available at
http://www.studiesinwords.de/shooting/chosen.html
There are, as usual, several differences. The Angel-on-the-punching-bag
seems like an on-the-spot alteration.
Also, the action descriptions are pretty interesting, both for
what insight it provides and their Jossian phrasing.
[> [> Love the shooting
script! Thanks for the link. -- HonorH, 12:17:40 05/26/03
Mon
Yes, it answers all kinds of questions. Like:
--Xander was taking Dawn to *Oxnard*?!
--the Slayers awakening are a multi-generational thing. No more
waiting for each other to die off--they'll be Called as they come
of age.
--the Scythe contains the power of all the Slayers; ergo, it really
could, with Willow's power, pull that off.
--Buffy whacking those Ubervamps off the edge into the chasm really
*was* an homage to the opening sequence of "Fellowship of
the Ring". I thought so.
Of course, it also raises a couple of questions, like:
--Who vetoed Shirtless Spike?
--What was with Andrew's "I have swimmer's ear!" thing?
--Why couldn't Joss have bugged UPN into allowing an extra ten
minutes or so so that we could've seen *everything* in the shooting
script?
[> [> [> My favourite
line from the shooting script (sp 7.22) -- Tchaikovsky, 12:21:26
05/26/03 Mon
They are taking out a bunch (Spike keeping his end up just
fine, thank you), holding off others -- but the vamps keep coming,
endlessly. It's brutal and dark and sweaty and bloody and I love
it. I love it.
The Sauron/dude line is a contender, but here there's just a hitn
as to what the end of the series means to Whedon- how invested
he's been in the whole principle from the beginning to the end,
and how, after all 144 episodes, and through all the exhaustion,
he still gets such pleasure from his creation.
TCH
[> [> [> Re: Love
the shooting script! Thanks for the link. -- pellenaka, 12:34:33
05/26/03 Mon
What was with Andrew's "I have swimmer's ear!" thing?
I know! My sister and I kept discussing what it was. The transcript
says that as well, but it's a fun ad-libbing.
[> [> [> I loved the
Swimmers Ear line! (spoilers Chosen) -- WickedBuffy, 17:06:11
05/26/03 Mon
"What was with Andrew's "I have swimmer's ear!"
thing?"
and if it had been the last thing we ever heard him say, it was
perfect!
One of the many all-time favorite excuses for someone trying to
avoid something about to happen they don't like - Andrew could
have been in gym class, suddenly ordered to the wrestling mat
by the teacher, seeing the size of his opponent, and trying one
last whiney pity excuse to get out of the inevitable painful situation.
[> Don't know Fanfic from
a hole, and Where I Found It... -- Sofdog, 11:05:49 05/26/03
Mon
I did notice the Xander miscredit and wonder if the whole thing
was just fanfic. But I don't read the stuff so I wouldn't know.
And just the same, this would have been cool to see.
I found this at www.buffy.nu, which credits it as having been
found at smgboard.com .
Book Melee
Vote! Come one! Come all! -- Sara, practicing addition, 1
+ 1 = ...2, 09:13:01 05/26/03 Mon
Ok, our book 2 suggestion thread got archived so that means it's
time to vote! Please put your selected title in the subject line
to make things easier, but feel free to lobby for your choice
in the message. Don't worry if your book doesn't get chosen, it
will be on the list for future melee selections.
Here are the book 2 options in no particular order:
1. Life of Pi by Yann Martel - 24 hours availability on
Amazon.com for $9.80, 336 pages, looks like a coming of age, adventure,
spirtual journey kind of thing.
2. Winter's Tale by Mark Halprin - 24 hours availability
on Amazon.com for $11.90, 688 pages, "magical story of the
multiple lives of protagonist Peter Lake", it looks like
a very hard to describe book, but it got glowing reviews on Amazon
and Barnes And Noble.
3. Time and Again by Jack Finney - 24 hours availability
on Amazon.com for $10.40, 400 pages, a modern man goes back in
time to 1882 and returns.
4. Galatic Pot Healer by Phillip K. Dick - 2-3 day availability
on BarnesAndNoble.com for $10.80, (Amazon shows it as out of print
but has 2 used versions available for $14.00), 177 pages, "Joe
Fernwright, out-of-work pot-healer on an Earth bogged down by
overpopulation and bureaucracy, is summoned by the Glimmung to
participate in an epic undertaking" and "What could
an omnipresent and seemingly omnipotent entity want with a humble
pot-healer? Or with the dozens of other odd creatures it has lured
to Plowman's Planet? And if the Glimmung is a god, are its ends
positive or malign?"
5. Hamlet by Shakespeare with Rosencrantz and Guilderstern
are Dead by Tom Stoppard, Hamlet- tons of versions
but the cheapest I found is: 24 hours availability on Amazon.com
for $3.99, 342 pages; R&C - 24 hours availability on
Amazon.com for $9.60, 126 pages, used versions also available,
it certainly seems like this board should do a Shakespeare discussion
(for one thing maybe I'll finally get a clue!) plus I love Rosencrantz
and Guilderstern and I've never read Hamlet.
6. Under the Skin by Michel Faber, 24 hours availability
on BarnesAndNoble.com for $19.02, 320 pages, "In Michel Faber's
suspenseful first novel, Isserley, an unusual-looking woman with
strangely scarred skin, drives through the Scottish Highlands
both day and night, looking for just the right male hitchhikers.
She picks them up, makes enough small talk to determine she's
made a safe choice, then hits a toggle switch on her car, releasing
a drug that knocks her victims out. She then takes them to the
"farm" where she lives-and where the 'processing' takes
place-a terrifying procedure involving the removal of various
body parts." To be honest, I'm not sure I can read this book,
but if you guys choose it, I'll just wait for book 3, no problem!
7. Symposium by Plato, like Hamlet there are tons
of versions, but the cheapest I saw is: 2-3 day availability on
BarnesAndNoble.com for $7.95, 72 pages, there's also a Dover Thrift
Edition on Amazon for $1.50 plus $1.99 sourcing fee, but there's
only 2 copies left and when you add shipping you're probably better
off getting a better version. We should definitely do Plato at
some point and it is a short (but perhaps not fast) read.
8. School of Night by Alan Wall, 24 hours availability
on Amazon.com for $11.16, 304 pages, "Part scholarly mystery,
part thriller, this novel grips the reader from the opening moment
when its narrator, BBC editor Sean Tallow, steals two Elizabethan-era
tomes from a university library. In the Hariot Notebooks, as they
are called, he hopes to find reference to the enigmatic School
of Night, a group of Elizabethans possibly including George Chapman,
the writer who obliquely hinted at its existence, and the charismatic
adventurer, Sir Walter Raleigh. Tallow is convinced Hariot will
furnish proof not only of the existence of the school but will
also reveal which of the group's members was the real author of
the plays commonly believed to have been written by William Shakespeare."
9. The Screwtape Letters by C.S. Lewis, 24 hours availability
on Amazon.com for $8.00, 224 pages, "Who among us has never
wondered if there might not really be a tempter sitting on our
shoulders or dogging our steps? C.S. Lewis dispels all doubts.
In The Screwtape Letters, one of his bestselling works, we are
made privy to the instructional correspondence between a senior
demon, Screwtape, and his wannabe diabolical nephew Wormwood.
As mentor, Screwtape coaches Wormwood in the finer points, tempting
his "patient" away from God." This is one of my
favorite books of all time, and even Darby will join in this discussion!
So vote away everyone! Only one vote per customer please! Those
of you with evil alter egos should try and come up with a nice
compromise vote! (...and no, Darby is not my evil alter ego!)
- Sara, who may indeed be Darby's evil alter ego, hmmm...
[> Last Suggestion This
Go Round! -- Sara, who was sure that thread had been archived...,
09:23:16 05/26/03 Mon
...but was wrong! Ok, I'm still closing the suggestion box for
now, with one addition -
10. Little, Big by John Crowley, 24 hour availablity on
BarnesAndNoble.com for $14.35, 538 pages, "Little, Big tells
the story of Smoky Barnable, an anonymous young man from The City
who marries Daily Alice Drinkwater, oldest daughter of a family
which has a long-standing relationship with an ancient, powerful,
and elusive race of fairies. Reaching backward to the early years
of that relationship and extending outward into a bleak and inhospitable
future, the novel chronicles the efforts of several generations
of Drinkwaters to come to terms with their peculiar circumstances
and to understand their role in the ongoing Story, which dominates
and encompasses them all."
No more suggestions!!!!!! Let's vote!!!!!!
[> Will I look bad if I
vote for my suggestion? Oh, what the heck...'Winter's Tale' gets
my vote! -- Rob, 09:42:04 05/26/03 Mon
[> [> You look exactly
the same to me, Rob! :D -- WickedBuffy, 12:01:15 05/26/03
Mon
[> [> [> Course that
doesn't really answer the question. Maybe he always looked bad
to you, heheh. -- Random, 12:02:50 05/26/03 Mon
[> [> [> [> lol!
Naw, he still looks like a perky brown-haired guy in a Sunnydale
cheerleading outfit to me! -- WickedB (wearing it manly, in
a Sean Connery way, of course), 12:19:09 05/26/03 Mon
[> Winter's Tale --
mamcu (convinced by Rob!), 10:30:57 05/26/03 Mon
[> [> Winter's Tale for
me also. -- CW, 11:17:18 05/26/03 Mon
[> Have no preference this
time around. :) -- WickedBuffy, 10:37:26 05/26/03 Mon
[> Huh. Winter's Tale, and
not by either Shakespeare or Dinesen, both of which I've read.
Very odd... -- Random, 10:48:34 05/26/03 Mon
...though, to be fair, Dinesen's was plural: Winter's Tales.
My vote: Symposium, which is often overshadowed by the more famout
Republic. I really, really need to go back and re-read it. Second
choices would be School of Night, which I've never heard
of but sounds fascinating, or The Screwtape Letters, which
are a must-read, even for a confirmed bloody agnostic like myself.
[> I have to vote for Little,
Big -- ponygirl, 11:00:46 05/26/03 Mon
... if only because it's sitting at the top of my unread bookpile
next to my bed. But all of the suggestions sound really good,
so I will be quite happy with whatever is decided!
[> Joining the melee and
voting for Winter's Tale -- dub ;o), 11:29:08 05/26/03
Mon
[> Galactic Pot Healer --
b/c I've already found it at my library -- LadyStarlight,
12:15:51 05/26/03 Mon
[> Quick question and a
vote -- Haecceity, 13:08:50 05/26/03 Mon
Do the (this round) rejected titles stay in the hat for later
picking? 'Cause I see lots I'd like to read, here!
It looks as though Winter's Tale is edging ahead of the pack though,
and in the interests of streamlining, I'll go with that. The fact
that I went out and picked it up already has absolutely nothing
to do with my vote :)
As for the others: I've read a bit too much Plato this term to
make me eager for another go-round of the Symposium so soon.
Always up for Shakespeare, and combined with R & G (my favourite!)
would be wonderful. School of Night was my suggestion and I would
like to get to it eventually, as it's singing siren songs from
the nightstand.
The Screwtape Letters is my second vote--never read it, always
meant to.
So, to make a long post...longer...
I vote for Winter's Tale.
---Haecceity
[> [> Re: Quick question
and a vote -- Sara, 13:39:34 05/26/03 Mon
Everything suggested stays a potential until chosen.
There are way too many good Choices in The Pack for any of them
to be treated like an Invisible Girl, when they could be Becoming
a Surprise of Revelations, so we will continue our Bargaining
(in multiple parts) for the perfect Storyteller until we learn
our Lessons.
Can anyone tell that I am clearly Out Of My Mind, perhaps even
Doomed and badly in need of an Intervention? In the Harsh Light
Of Day I expect to feel nothing but Fear, Itself, regarding this
post, however I am currently Helpless to stop.
Well, the Real Me, must stop now to Get It Done with some Family
business that looks an enough like Nightmares to make me look
forward to being Killed By Death. Getting Smashed with Beer Bad
as that may be for me, might actually make me Normal Again.
Sara, who's really stopping now, before anyone starts Seeing Red...
[> [> [> I think Sara's
a bit Touched! -- ponygirl, 13:49:05 05/26/03 Mon
[> [> [> [> Ponygirl,
Hush! I'm glad Sara took The Initiative and expressed her Passion
for all the Choices. -- Rhysdux (who is in a silly mood today),
13:59:37 05/26/03 Mon
[> [> [> Don't Lie
to Me--if we have Bad Eggs, will we Go Fish? -- mamcu, 14:25:28
05/26/03 Mon
[> [> [> Restless,
were we? -- Haecceity, 15:15:15 05/26/03 Mon
Hush, don't worry, Sara. We all understand that you are a bit
Wild at Heart, therefore the above post was not Beneath You (check
out that internal pun structure, folks!)
It's understandable, in these End of Days to be feeling a bit
Wrecked, wracked with Pangs for our favourite...er...Dead Things.
But you shouldn't be Listening to Fear, I think it's just one
of those Phases. After all, there's a New Moon Rising with this
"book or possibly video club." Thanks to your Initiative,
we can counteract the Entropy of The Dark Age of no new Buffy
by reading. After all we still have the board, and there's No
Place Like Home. So, Bring On the Night, we'll Tabula Rasa the
Weight of the World, and begin Once More, With Feeling.
As for the books:
I'm simply Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered by the vast array
of Choices! It will be nice to read something not for class--School
Hard. Though maybe I should be more Selfless and support the Plato
faction. Oh well, maybe this will Help get me in shape for next
semester's "Intro to the Modern Blurb." And while I
harbor a great Passion for Shakespeare, I think I might be ready
to read A New Man. Maybe a Tristram Shandy type of Life Serial.
Thinking of the Checkpoint ahead, maybe we can segue into illustrated
books-my favourite is Where the Wild Things Are, but I'm open
to suggestions. You're probably tired of being Flooded by so many
options, though, so I'll leave The Harvest to you.
Hell's Bells, this turned into a long post! Who knew the Consequences
of extended punning? That's it, I'm going to sign off All The
Way to listen to my new Into the Woods soundtrack and maybe catch
a movie on Showtime.
Consider me Gone,
---Haecceity
The Replacement for This Year's Girl
P.S. To anyone here who believes we have been Bad Girls (or even
Villains!)-
If we Shadow(s) have offended,
Think but this, and all is mended,
That you have been but a Sleeper here
While these Revelations did appear.
And this weak and idle theme,
No more yielding than a dream.
"Gentlemen", do not reprehend.
If you Crush, we will mend...
Else The Pack a liar call.
So, good night unto you all.
Give me your hands, if we be friends,
And Robin(Wood) shall restore Amends.
If you make fun of us, do it out of Earshot. That's it, As You
Were.
[> [> [> [> Bring
on the night ! ... err, I mean, Winter's Tale -- LonesomeSundown,
making Anne awful pun, 18:17:51 05/26/03 Mon
[> [> [> what a wonderful
Surprise! i'm Touched... -- anom, 09:54:31 05/27/03 Tue
...that you've Chosen to express yourselves in the form I have
such a Passion for! Some think of it as the lowest form of wit,
but you don't consider it Beneath You. Not that I didn't think
you had the Potential, but Hell's Bells, I never expected this!
It's as though pundom had its own Sleeper cell right here on the
board! Seeing the board Flooded with puns--why, it's like a Homecoming!
I feel like we're Family, & I just want to acknowledge it before
the thread is Gone.
In my capacity as Master of Pun Fu, I hereby declare each of you
a Superstar!
[> Being Voy... -- Tchaikovsky,
13:30:58 05/26/03 Mon
...Everyone picks the longest one!!
I'm quite happy to go with Winter's Tale, but I second Haecceity
with the idea that we should recycle the list in future- The Screwtape
Letters, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead and some Plato
all sound good, not to mention the other suggestions I've in most
cases never heard of.
TCH
[> [> If I can find Winter's
Tale in the library... -- Rhysdux, 14:02:15 05/26/03 Mon
Then I'll read it. My personal vote would be for The Screwtape
Letters, because I have a copy of that.
[> [> [> Re: If I
can find Winter's Tale in the library... -- jane, 21:35:07
05/26/03 Mon
My choice would be Screwtape Letters, but I'd happily read Winter'
Tale.
[> Voting for Screwtape
Letters... -- Sara, 14:08:35 05/26/03 Mon
but I would love to see either Galatic Pot Healer or School
of Night show up in the rotation soon! We should certainly
just about everything on the list!
[> [> Ooh! Screwtape!
Yeah! -- HonorH (Lewis Fangirl), 21:35:25 05/26/03 Mon
Did I ever tell you that I wrote a "Screwtape Letters"
xover with AtS? Yep!
A
Letter from Screwtape to Mr. Holland Manners, Esq.
[> [> [> Read it at
FanFiction Net. Magnificent job, HonorH. -- Rhysdux, 22:56:18
05/26/03 Mon
[> [> [> Wonderful!
'Be prepared to lose some personnel'--hee! -- Haecceity, 01:57:23
05/27/03 Tue
[> First Evil says...Screwtape!
-- Darby, looking for an excuse to reread (and something short),
14:13:51 05/26/03 Mon
[> I vote for School of
Night -- Dead Soul, 14:37:11 05/26/03 Mon
[> I vote for 'The Stars
My Destination' -- d'Herblay, 14:42:35 05/26/03 Mon
[> [> That sounds really
good to -- mamcu (rethinking it if that's allowed), 17:29:28
05/26/03 Mon
[> [> [> Everything
is allowed! Your vote has been switched. -- Sara, promising
not to use butterfly ballots!, 19:02:55 05/26/03 Mon
[> [> I think I like
you, d'H. A man who appreciates the classics. Let's re-visit Mr.
Foyle. -- Random, a big fan of the Golden Age of sci-fi, 21:03:26
05/26/03 Mon
[> [> Also vote for Stars
My Destination -- s'kat, 21:11:22 05/26/03 Mon
Partly because I own it and it's short. The other reason?
Haven't read Mr. Bester in a while and I loved Demolished Man
- another suggestion by the way.
But don't mind me...I haven't started reading Perfume yet.
And am hardly dependable when it comes to book clubs.
Didn't make it through the last selection for the one
I go to in person. ;-)
However - I think I might end up reading the Stars Are My Destination
anyways...in a real mood for amoral anti-heros.
sk
[> [> Alfie!! Alfie!!!
(this means count me in here) -- Vickie, 21:42:32 05/26/03
Mon
[> Re: Book Melee Vote!
Come one! Come all! -- skpe,
17:42:00 05/26/03 Mon
Sence this is a phylosophy post place
I vote for
1) ZEN AND THE ART OF MOTERCYCLE MAINTINANCE Robert M Persig
2) GODEL ESCHER,BACH Douglas R Hofstadter
[> It is too late to join?
-- Vickie, just back
from vacation, 18:23:34 05/26/03 Mon
and to ask for a description of how this will operate? Is this
a once-a-month book? A once-a-week book? Once the book is chosen,
how long do I have to get it and read it?
thanks. Email if this has already been discussed.
[> [> It's Book Melee!
Anyone can jump in anytime! -- WickedBuffy ... :D, 09:11:24
05/27/03 Tue
[> Warning to all Book Melee
participants -- Tchaikovsky, 11:01:01 05/27/03 Tue
I have written my 'Perfume' review. It is 3,840 words long. Brace
yourselves for next Monday...
TCH
[> [> Just finished the
book last night. Can't wait to discuss, and read your essay!
-- Rob, shivering with antici......(say it!)............pation!,
11:36:40 05/27/03 Tue
[> [> I bought it around
6.30 pm this evening and.... -- Rahael, 14:22:38 05/27/03
Tue
have started devouring the book - I'm on page 162. Started it
reading it on the Tube home, read it walking home, read it in
the bath, and kept on reading it until I made myself stop otherwise
I'd finish it tonight.
It's been all too long since a book made me want to read so concentratedly!
Can't wait to read your review, and hear other people's views
on it.
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