May 2003 posts
Matrix-
thoughtfullness -- Uno, 20:00:53 05/22/03 Thu
So you have neo- if you re-write 'Neo' a bit, it comes out to
'One'
'I already know what you are going to do, but now you have to
find out why you made that decision'
The matrix seems to take on thoughts about whether or not we are
all based on a world that revolves around fate. That our lives,
and every action in them is pre-determined before time started.
It then says, that we make all of the choices of our lives before
they are even presented to us, or before we exist on this earth,
then we have to find out why we made the choices we did. Either
way, we are not really our own free mind. Also- I have a complaint.
In 'the matrix' Morpheous made Neo believe that if he was the
one that he would be completely worshiped in 'the real world'
yet in Reloaded, it seems only pesants believe he is great, while
everyone else thinks that he is just a flaw in the program we
call the matrix.
[> Tip of the metaphoric
iceberg... *spoilers for Matrix/Matrix Reloaded* -- AngelVSAngelus,
00:02:59 05/23/03 Fri
Friend, you've begun the process of digging, but you're not done.
Ask yourself why the virtual program that imprisons all of those
human's minds is designed to imitate the late twentieth/early
twenty-first century Western society?
Ask yourself why there is recurrant anti-authoritarian imagery
involving our leather clad heroes facing off with human police
officers, security guards, and programmed Agents that take the
form of well manicured caucasian federal operatives with names
that speak of 1950s blandness (Smith, Johnson).
Ask yourself why it is the intuitive program that Neo calls the
Oracle that figures out how to get humans to accept the program,
and why the logic minded Architect could not and still cannot
eliminate the problem of the systemic anomaly (the One).
These questions and a plethora of apocryphal and Greek references
will lead you to the answers.
Super-Evil
Special Edition: 'Chosen', aka 'The Final Insult' -- Honorificus
(The Cool, The Calm, The Clear), 20:16:40 05/22/03 Thu
So now, the end is here. I'll be damned if I sing "My Way"
(to be strictly accurate, I'll be damned no matter what I sing),
but I have faced the final journey, and I'm going to tell you:
it sucked more than even I would have believed. I was prepared
for a disappointing ending. I was even prepared for an ending
that left me with a severe need to strangle something (although
to be again accurate, I'd strangle something for a chocolate bar).
I was not prepared, however, for this absolute abortion of a finale.
Rumors--exaggerated, no doubt--may have reached you of the depth
of distress I was in after the final credits rolled. In truth,
I was far more reasoned than anyone has a right to be in this
situation.
(Stick that gods-bedamned Percocet where it really belongs, HH!)
Sorry about that. My Super-Stupid Alter-Ego is lurking about just
waiting for another chance to drug me into incompetence.
To get back to the subject, as this episode was so utterly tragic,
I'm eschewing my usual format in favor of a more complete review.
Never fear: I will bar no holds regarding the fashions, so sit
back, quit sniveling, and read.
The Bad Beginning
We start back up exactly where we left off last week: with Buffy
and Angel sucking on each others' tongues. Watching this nauseating
scene is poor widdle Spike and his bwoken heart. Simp. Buffy and
Angel finally break it off long enough to start talking strategy.
Thankfully, a not-fully-dead Caleb stands up to finish his rudely-interrupted
fight with Buffy. That ends when she bisects him, starting with
his manly parts.
Angel, being almost completely useless when he's not evil, chooses
to get back into the action at this point. Spike, meanwhile, storms
out, which neither Buffy nor Angel and his Patented Vampire Senses
notices. Angel yanks out a necklace with one enormous magickal
jewel on it and then informs Buffy that he's going to wear it,
which just confirms what the slashers have thought all along.
Buffy understandably tells him to get lost.
Of course, by this time, Angel's sniffed out the fact that Buffy's
been spending copious amounts of time in close proximity to Spike.
This sends him into a Pout. Buffy murders a metaphor and sends
him on his way. He seems foolishly optimistic about it all.
Act-Bloody-One
So Buffy gets home, where she faces her shin-kicking brat of a
sister, who has refused to be left out of the action. Go on, get
yourself killed, honey. Not even your fashion sense can rescue
you from this horror.
Buffy lets her friends in on the Caleb-killing, and Xander invites
everyone to a party in his eye socket. Those can be fun. There
was this one time with a giant Cyclops that--oh, no you don't!
You're getting thoroughly off-topic, H.
Why don't we give you a nice drink and you can finish the review
in the morning?
Forget it, you ninny. I'm not drinking another of your Valium-laced
vodka martinis. I'm doing my review right now, and if you don't
like it, feel free to clear out.
Fine. Finish up, but I'm keeping an eye
on you.
Yeah, do that, and keep in mind what happened to Xander for "seeing".
Getting back to the topic, after chatting up her friends, Buffy
heads down to see Spike, who's also in a Pout. Buffy fantasizes
about him, Angel, and a vat of oil. Spike demands the necklace,
which really doesn't work with his basic wardrobe. Buffy makes
nice and hands it over and then tries to get back in his bed.
Spike folds like a bad Poker player, the slut.
But Buffy can't sleep, poor darling, and that gives the First
a chance to drop by and chat. It taunts her a bit with its army
until Spike awakens from a dream about drowning in footwear, which
sounds quite pleasant to me. Buffy then announces they're going
to win.
To be continued, unfortunately.
[> ^ Obviously a major malfunction,
^ (its been a hard week for all of us lamb.) -- cougar, 20:36:26
05/22/03 Thu
[> ::waiting quietly, but
impatiently, for more:: -- WickedBuffy, 20:40:17 05/22/03
Thu
[> Continuation of My Brilliance
-- Honorificus (The Eminently Reasonable One), 20:48:05 05/22/03
Thu
The Unfortunate Act Three
Buffy presents her plan to her friends. They think it's impractical
and impossible. Therefore, they agree to do it. Perhaps they only
agree due to the horror of Buffy's outfit. She's wearing a vaguely
pinkish granny blouse with puffy sleeves and a high neck along
with taupe lo-rise trousers. Her hair is at its wimpiest, too.
She looks like a little girl in Buffy drag.
Faith, on the other hand, looks gorgeous. She's wearing a deep
red tank top that emphasizes the fact that Eliza Dushku's carrying
around a bit more weight than she used to, especially in the bust.
I could just eat her up, whether she's baked or unbaked cookie
dough. Furthermore, her hair, with its natural wave, is far more
today than Buffy's five-minutes-ago straight, limp 'do.
So they discuss, going short on the specifics so Joss the Un-unholy
can pull off his "surprise". Willow complains that this
is going to be no pierced-tongue fun for her. Dawn is ejected
from the room lest her innocence be corrupted. Later, Buffy gives
another Speech to the badly-dressed Potentials. I swear, Kennedy
and her butcher-than-thou wardrobe is enough to give me hives.
The plan involves walking right down into the Hellmouth. Yeah.
Good idea.
After this, Wood and Faith move heavy stuff and discuss sex and
who's prettier. The answer is simple, people: I am. Let's all
get together.
So they pass the night. Willow gets all nervy and sickly sweet
with Kennedy, who's a brat. Giles, Andrew, Amanda, and Xander
play Dungeons & Dragons while Anya snores. Buffy goes to visit
Spike. We're not told what they do because Joss is a pig.
The Nausea-Inducing Buildup
Next morning, they invade the school. Let's pause a moment to
consider their "might be dying today" wardrobes.
Buffy: opts for a frilly white blouse, practical jeans, and a
tan suede jacket. Rather underwhelming and much improved by a
little blood.
Willow: in her grand tradition, wears a truly, deeply, hideously
ugly shirt, all atrociously glittery and completely unflattering.
Giles: goes with the basics, but has the good taste to wear his
"I'm here to kick your ass" trenchcoat. Score one for
good taste.
Xander: sticks with plaid. He's quite correct that he needs a
new look.
Dawn: continues her fashion triumphs with a neat little coordinated
denim outfit that's both practical and fashionable.
Anya: what was that coat?
Andrew: wears a motorcycle on his chest. I'm truly flummoxed.
Kennedy: gray "I'm a dyke" tank top with trying-to-be-feminine
detailing.
Faith: sadly chooses to wear clothes.
Wood: wears red, which is yummy.
Potentials: more sartorial tragedies and workout gear. Gleh.
Now that we've got that out of the way, the Potentials and Spike,
who's wearing his Sparkly (which certainly does not go with his
outfit) descend to the basement and various other people split
for various other places, leaving Buffy, Giles, Willow, and Xander
to chat. Very sensibly, they think about hitting the mall the
following day. Then Buffy heads down, where they open the seal
and descend into the caverns of Isenga--oops, wrong show. Spike
complains that his Sparkly isn't working.
To be grudgingly concluded.
[> [> What you've completely
missed -- manwitch, 21:03:01 05/22/03 Thu
While I can agree with you to an extent that Faith is hot, I feel
you've completely missed what Joss is trying to say. He's saying
that Buffy is hot, too. And Anya and Willow are hot. It seems
pretty clear that Dawn is the hottest. While Joss shows us that
Kennedy is only pretty much hot, I think the message he wants
to convey is that the tongue-piercing makes up the difference.
When Spike complains that his sparkly isn't working, that's a
metaphor. There's a reason, after all, why Buffy prefers Eraserhead.
[> [> [> Angel has
a Sparklie???? Where...where???????....;) -- Rufus, 23:06:11
05/22/03 Thu
[> [> [> [> Of
course he's got a Sparkly. He just doesn't use it. -- Honorificus
(The Ever-Tranquil One), 23:21:22 05/22/03 Thu
[> [> [> [> You
have to read the comic book to get the backstory -- manwitch,
06:29:35 05/23/03 Fri
In Frayed it is revealed that for a long time Angel didn't
have a sparklie. Then Buffy gave him a big sparklie as a sort
of party favor at her 17th birthday party. But for a long time
Angel didn't use it, because, let's face it, sparklies can be
dangerous. Then one day Cordelia caught him showing his sparklie
to Darla and got real mad. Now she keeps it in a bag in the drawer
of her bedside table.
As for Spike, he's in denial. He's pretending Buffy gave him his
Sparklie, but deep down he knows he got his sparklie from Angel.
That's why he had Angel's picture on the punching bag.
Its all very sad.
[> [> [> [> [>
What could it mean that Angel got the Sparklie from W&H?
-- mamcu, 08:04:35 05/23/03 Fri
Was that a group Sparklie?
[> [> [> [> Angel
is completely sparklie-whipped. ::bathroom wall scribble: 'Angel
gives it out to anyone':: -- contumelious, 08:23:32 05/23/03
Fri
[> [> [> [> [>
Spike got his Sparkly from Angel. What does that say about
him? -- Honorificus (Who Can Have Any Sparkly She Wants),
17:29:12 05/23/03 Fri
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Lilah to Angel to Buffy to Spike - who shared his sparklie
with all the UberVamps. -- WickedB -all those L/A, A/B, B/S
& S/U shippers were right!, 21:39:27 05/23/03 Fri
.... minion-orgy!
[> [> Conclusion of My
Brilliance -- Honorificus
(The Ever-Triumphant One), 21:14:01 05/22/03 Thu
Big, Fat Battle Scene
So anyway, a bunch of lovely Turoks are having a party in the
Hellmouth. The Uber-vamps notice the nice meat awaiting them and
start climbing the walls. However, Willow is working her witchcraft,
and we get back to Buffy's mercifully-interrupted speech.
Seems our girl decided one Slayer--or even two--isn't enough,
so Willow's going to activate every Potential in the world. That's
right: dozens of Slayers, just itching to kill demons left and
right. Girl freakin' power, the Slayer Ya-Ya Sisterhood, it's
grotesque. You can tell Kennedy's feeling the power because she
suddenly looks like she's in a shampoo commercial. It makes them
all rather stupidly optimistic.
Willow, of course, has gone all Glinda, with the white hair and
the creepy glow. She should've learned from Joyce and Cordy that
being glowy's not necessarily in the interest of the good guys,
but she actually seems to like it. She slips her girlfriend a
scythe and blisses out on the floor.
Down the spiral staircase to Hell, a great deal of hacking and
slashing is going on. Quite a waste of some rather sweet Turoks.
Spike notices his Sparkly is getting all active. Buffy gets speared.
She falls to the floor. Drama queen!
Faith notices her partner-in-UST isn't feeling so good and comes
over to fetch the scythe. Then the First thoughtfully stops by
for a chat. Buffy rudely tells it to get lost and stands up, completely
forgetting her crippling injury.
By now, of course, some Turoks have escaped, and the Bringers
have joined the parties. We get a bunch of shots of people fighting.
Amanda gets killed, Wood gets stabbed, and it appears that Anya
has worn her last bad outfit. I'm all cheery.
Unfortunately, just then, Spike's Sparkly really goes into overdrive.
It blows out the roof and channels sunlight through his soul,
bathing him in a truly unflattering light and dusting Turok-hans
so it breaks the heart. Everybody still living makes a run for
it, except Buffy, of course. Always with the dramatics. She stays
behind long enough to say a nauseating farewell to Spike before
he burns up.
The others, meanwhile, have sensibly gathered on a school bus
and rip out of there, not even waiting for Buffy. But wait! She's
running across the rooftops! Staying just ahead of the sinkhole
devouring Sunnydale! She makes a final leap, and she's safe! You
can practically hear the flurging cheers.
So the bus stops, ignoring the fact that there are quite a few
people who need medical attention on it, just so Buffy and her
crew can gaze back and savor the moment. Much gooiness is had,
and I just can't go into it, it's so depressing.
My Indisputably Correct Conclusion
There was so much promise in this series. We could have had a
deep, honest look into demon societies, with their true philosophy
of, "Only the strong survive. The rest get eaten." Indeed,
at times, it seemed that this was where the Joss creature was
heading. We could have seen the ultimate triumph of evil, the
taking over of the earth by the Dark Forces, returning it to its
primal, chaotic state.
But no. No, we had to wade through six-and-a-half years for this:
the triumph of goodness, decency, love, and friendship. What rot!
Now, one might be tempted to be optimistic and point out that
the First can't really be vanquished, even if its plans were thwarted
this time. It will return to scheme another day, certainly. However,
one would be a moron if one was cheered by that, for this episode
demonstrated that while evil exists within humans, so does good,
and just as the First Evil can never be extinguished, neither
can the good. And now that all the Potentials have been activated
as Slayers, even if the First had a full complement of Bringers
left, it couldn't kill them all. We enter a new era of the Sisterhood
of Slayers along with their Watchers/Guardians who are unfettered
by the past, and it is truly a dark day for demonkind.
But never fear, fellow fiends: one day, we will strike back against
the Slayers. We will rise again, oh, yes, we shall, and blood
will rain from the skies! Humans shall be as cattle, and we will
feast upon their entrails! Chaos! Violence! Fire streaking across
the sky! The Glorious Day awaits us, and
urple
Note from HonorH: I'm afraid Honorificus
got rather overexcited as she neared the end of her review. Fearing
the worst after Tuesday's display, I've taken the liberty of tranquilizing
her once again. No doubt she'll have something to say about that
when she awakens, but until then, she's said quite enough. Have
a good evening, folks!
[> [> [> Now THAT'S
evil. <<golf clap>> -- JBone - who is glad he
found the fun evil part, 21:42:04 05/22/03 Thu
[> [> [> Re: Conclusion
of My Brilliance -- manwitch, 05:31:53 05/23/03 Fri
I apologize for my earlier post. I realize now you weren't talking
about hotness at all. You were making an important point about
how this show failed to live up to what it could have been: an
exploration of demon society and philosophy. And you're right.
For example, even after seven years, we don't know if vampires
who meet sunlight leave a nasty acrid cloud behind. And while
we know Spike liked onions, but not garlic, the more intersting
and ambiguous territory of the shallot was never explored.
Its good to know that evil lives on. Thanks.
[> [> [> Oh Honorificus,
you've made me get all misty -- ponygoyle, 07:11:46 05/23/03
Fri
It was actually a blood-mist from a minion I just vaporized but
the sentiment remains. Some look at the world as it is and ask
why, others dream of the world as it should be and ask why not
kill everyone in it. Rest sweet demon, you have much work ahead
of you.
[> [> [> At last I
can reveal... -- the entity formerly known as pr0ng, 08:09:54
05/23/03 Fri
...my true identity!
[must... strip off... this... ugh... demon suit - ] There.
It is I, Mewlie the Wonder Kitten, Avatar of Goodness! Hah!
The Good Guys have triumphed, thanks to Our Lady of the Unfinished
Cookies. Take that, you evil minions and evil overlords. Hellmouth,
shmellmouth. Goodness shall reign for at least the summer.
Pet me, for I am cute. Mewl.
[> [> [> [> EWWW!
Goodness is ugly! Especially in this form! Retch! Yurk! --
fawning minion, 08:27:43 05/23/03 Fri
[> [> [> [> Very
funny, pr0ng -- Saguaro Stalker, 08:53:37 05/23/03 Fri
Cats good? That'll be the day!
Would old ladies and Canadians love cats if they weren't evil!
Never heard of a witch hanging out with a black dog, did you?
Why do you think we bet kittens? Nobody cares when you lose 'em!
Sure, I'll pet you. Here, kitty-kitty. Now where's that rock?
[> [> [> [> Stop
that. You're bugging me. -- Honorificus (The Shiny Spectacular
One), 20:27:13 05/23/03 Fri
Is this some pathetic plea for attention? Everyone knows you,
pr0ng, Lord of Spam. Unless you've developed a Super-Fuzzy Alter-Ego,
which would be just tiresome. Bad look on you, dear; give it up.
[> [> [> [> [>
Huh. Someone told me... -- pr0ng, 22:28:27 05/23/03
Fri
Kittens get you chicks. My bad. I'll just stick to the menial
groveling, the forelock tugging, the heart-in-a-box -- you know,
the classics.
[> [> Kennedy's wardrobe:
Brings on Hives or Heaves? -- fawning minion, 05:47:08
05/23/03 Fri
[> Another perspective (Yeah,
spoilers for Chosen) -- Saguaro Stalker, 07:11:29 05/23/03
Fri
I for one was glad to see the FE get stuffed. How could she let
all her ubervamps run around the final battle in those uniforms
from the dumpster behind the closeout section of Kmart-of-Purgatory.
Even Vi, number one on the FBI's list of fashion criminals, got
her hair fixed and a slightly less vomit-worthy set of clothes
for the big event.
Plus you forgot the Burning questions!!! Well here's a few...
Why do do these stupid California villains keep driving the good
guys into the desert? We don't need any more good guys
in the desert!
Did that bringer who made Anya do the splits get away? I sure
hope ME gives him his own series.
How come the guys on our side always violate mine safety codes
so when things go wrong the whole blasted town falls on them?
Wasn't Sunnydale on the ocean? Shouldn't we have at least gotten
a pretty waterfall when the #@??!* Scoobies looked back in the
hole?
Which one of the new slayers that got back on the bus was really
the First Evil? Buffy should have checked everybody on the bus
with the CSDT (Chipped Spike's Demon Test (patent pending))
With that gut wound, how far will the scoobies drive before they
realize Buffy could use some serious medical attention? Probably
not far enough.
Does anyone think Cleveland is really lucky? Nah!
[> [> Re: Burning questions,
I have one (spoilers for Chosen); -- graylady, 09:39:05
05/23/03 Fri
At the end Buffy tells Spike he's done enough (meaning that he
can leave with her if he wants) and he says he's staying. Here's
my question: Just where would he go if he had left? It's broad
daylight, sunshine a-blazing. Did he think to bring his blanket
for the big fight? NO. There was nothing to shield him from the
sun if he did leave. So he was a crispy critter whether he stayed
or went, right? (Not that that in any way lessens Spike's sacrifice.
It's just another little thing for a viewer to gripe about.)
[> [> [> I wondered
the same thing. -- rowena, 13:36:23 05/23/03 Fri
[> [> Why Buffy really
did mean it. (spoiler Chosen) -- WickedBuffy, 09:48:37
05/23/03 Fri
Standing next to Spike, saying she loved him - she really did.
It had to be at least 350 degrees in there, not counting the flaming
fingerlock they did.
Her dough would have been baked and ready at that temperature.
So, of course she meant she loved him.
[> [> [> Good -- a
hot chick with superpowers, indeed. Mrowr. -- pr10n, 10:00:27
05/23/03 Fri
[> [> [> [> Well,
at least Buffy touched the fire and got the fire back. --
Farquarson, Formerly Rhys, 01:26:59 05/24/03 Sat
[> Oh, please, please, please,
Honorificus -- The First Evil, who lives on, 09:36:14 05/23/03
Fri
Tell us you will grace us with your super-evil reviews of the
earlier seasons of "Buffy" when we start our "Back
to the Beginning" weekly episode discussions this summer!
There are so many fashion faux pas-es (faux pi?) and bits of evil-y
goodness for you to rip into in Seasons 1-5!!
[> [> Re: Oh, please,
please, please, Honorificus (seconds the grovelling) -- pr0ng
[hastily redonning demon suit], 10:03:12 05/23/03 Fri
[> [> Re: Oh, please,
please, please, Honorificus -- Saguaro Stalker, 10:42:51
05/23/03 Fri
A whole summer without Honorificus, would be like the hellmouth
being destroyed again... (sob) ... Sorry, I promised I wouldn't
let the end of evil on Buffy get to me like this, but... (sob)
[> [> A minor difficulty:
-- Honorificus (The Completely Necessary One), 13:26:49 05/23/03
Fri
My Super-Poor Alter-Ego has thus far been unable to afford a DVD
player, let alone the early-season DVDs. Thus, all I would have
to go on is my memory--which, thanks to being linked to HonorH's,
isn't all that hot. One day, I will be free of her. Thus, while
I will contribute where I am able, and where a particular outfit
has emblazoned itself upon my consciousness, I will not be able
to rip the early seasons apart as you no doubt wish me to.
[> [> [> Do you have
a VCR? -- Masq, 13:28:36 05/23/03 Fri
Because I can make tapes.
There's more than one way to skin a Chocolate Canadian-eating
demon cat.
[> Casting blame where it
belongs, re:the final insult -- Ren-devlish, 10:23:50 05/23/03
Fri
Now, now dears. I know we all want to blame Joss for this insipid
bliss-fest of goodness but I must point out his co-conspirators.
If Rufus (the woman -cuddles- kittens for abyssal sake) did not
pen the oh-so cute 'Angel, Spike and oil' line then I am not a
ruler of the lower realms.
Oh, buck up Honorificus darling. Those nasty pills will have to
wear off eventually.
D
[> [> I thought Honorificus
was the true owner of the body & HonorH was the guest soul.
-- WickedBuffy ::confused::, 10:45:48 05/23/03 Fri
[> [> [> Agh. I am
confused and confusing. This is what Joss does to me. -- Ren-devlish,
11:47:51 05/23/03 Fri
[> [> [> From a previous
discussion... -- devilish, who has a firm hold on her corporeal-ness,
16:50:45 05/23/03 Fri
it was determined that she was merely leasing her corporeal form.
I don't know who the Erratic One's realtor is but she got shafted.
[> [> [> [> wonder
if any Florida swampland got thrown into the deal -- Cozener
Feint, 17:25:20 05/23/03 Fri
[> [> [> *Pfft!* She
wishes. -- HonorH, 17:30:23 05/23/03 Fri
[> Sometimes I worry that
there's just four actual people here with 35 names apiece.
-- Cozener Feint, 17:50:06 05/23/03 Fri
[> [> Oops! Gig's up,
people; we gotta try something else. -- HonorH (and her multiple
personalities), 19:41:40 05/23/03 Fri
That or kill this guy because he figured it out. Come to think
of it, that sounds easier.
[> [> [> Easy? First
you'll have to figure out which of the other three I am. --
Cozener Feint, 21:42:05 05/23/03 Fri
Destiny and
free will in Chosen (spoilers up to Home and Chosen with future
spec) -- Oyceter, 21:18:46 05/22/03 Thu
Delurking once again because Chosen struck a chord very deep within
me, prompting this rather wordy post...
The second time I watched Chosen, I cried the entire way through,
just like how I bawled my way through Home. And in way, the two
episodes are perfect complements to each other in their treatment
of free will, choice and destiny. Home shows why free will must
be fought for and how it can act as the downfall of all of us,
how it is behind the darker impulses in us, but Chosen takes the
other side and demonstrates the transcendence of free will and
of choice. And because of this, I think Chosen was a beautiful
cap on a series that has always been chock full of prophecies
and loneliness.
The burden of being Buffy is that she has never had a choice in
what she does -- she is the Chosen, she has been chosen, and because
of that, she is in a sense always alone. Xander, Willow, and even
Giles, after losing his place as Buffy's Watcher, along with all
the other Scoobies who have wandered in and out of their lives,
all of them have had a choice in fighting the fight, as is most
aptly demonstrated in Willow's decision to go to UC Sunnydale
to fight the good fight in Choices. But Buffy is different. Instead
of choosing, she has been Chosen. And because of that, because
of the sense of destiny that surrounds her position as Slayer,
I think Buffy has isolated herself from her friends. In a way,
Anya is right... Buffy is "lucky." I would argue that
the luck she has is mostly bad luck, luck that comes from not
having much of a say in her own life. It starts with her being
born the next Slayer and being Chosen later. She does not have
a choice in her parents' divorce, nor in the existence of her
fake sister. She doesn't choose when Angel leaves. Instead, it's
fate, or unlucky stars, that keep them apart, like Romeo and Juliet.
Buffy struggles with this sense of destiny, the sense that many
things in her life have already been predetermined. It begins
with Welcome to the Hellmouth, in Prophecy Girl. It continues
through her life. And in general, Buffy survives these prophecies
and her various destinies by circumventing them, although almost
all the prophecies come true. She tweaks them to her end, but
in the end, she still dies at 16, Dawn's blood is still stopped
in the Gift.
Angel, also, has felt this burden of destiny, with the pesky curse
on his soul. The PTB are entwined with his unlife -- they bring
him back from Hell, they give him his Seers to guide him on his
mission to redemption. In fact, I would argue that destiny has
an even tighter hold on Angel than on Buffy. The show, since Inside
Out, can even be interpreted to be nothing but the result of manipulation
by higher powers in order to achieve the singular goal of the
birth of Jasmine. Angel's final fate of shanshuing and dying human
has been prophesized, as has his final, heartbreaking decision
regarding Connor in Home. And though the AI team has successfully
overthrown the reign of Jasmine and restored choice to the world,
in the end, it's a tossup decision. As Lilah says, by doing so,
they've ended world peace. And in the end, Angel's final choice
regarding his son is uncannily similar to what Jasmine was doing.
So what actually happens in Chosen? I would argue that Buffy and
company completely overthrow the idea of prophecy and the idea
of predetermination through sheer willpower, which is why I love
this episode so much. The entire episode isn't about being chosen,
like Buffy and Angel have been for a very, very long time. Instead,
it's about having chosen, having made a conscious decision.
Well, with the exception of the potentials around the world whose
powers are surfacing, but I guess one could say they're part of
breaking the general prophecy? Haven't figured them out yet.
What makes Chosen such a wonderful end to the series is that it
completely overturns the premise of the series, the words we've
all heard begin the first season episodes -- Into each generation,
a Slayer is born. No, Buffy says. No, this is a stupid rule some
powerful men made up a long time ago. We don't have to do this
anymore. And with her plan, she rejects everything that's sought
to keep her alone, sought to keep her apart. But instead of being
unChosen, becoming normal like she's always dreamed of, Buffy
changes the rules. She makes herself normal by making everyone
like her, not by becoming like them. She gives girls all over
the world her power. She makes them all special.
Are you ready to be strong? she wants to know.
And this strength, this is not the strength they're supposed to
have, the strength of the demon that was bequethed to her so many
years ago by the actions of the Shadowmen. This is not the strength
she rejected in Get It Done, because that strength set her apart
and made her alone, made her into the general with no sympathy.
So Buffy throws the Slayer handbook out the window like she's
been doing for so many years, and instead of twisting the prophecies,
like she used to in Prophecy Girl and the Gift, she burns the
prophecy books. She and Willow find the power in the Scythe/axe/nifty
weapon thing the Guardians made for the Slayer, one whose power
makes Willow glow white-haired like a goddess. And that's the
power she gives to all the girls, all over the world. She gives
them the power and the strength to make a difference, she gives
them the power of choice. There won't be demons hunting down a
single Slayer anymore, because there are Slayers everywhere.
So what does this have to do with Spike? Buffy and Willow changed
the world, but Spike saved it.
Spike's sacrifice, like Buffy's gift, changes the rules. I think
that the amulet was always intended for Angel by the PTB; it was
his to bear in this final battle on the Hellmouth, and his sacrifice
with it on would give him his redemption and his final reward
-- becoming human. And instead, I firmly believe Spike will be
taking this instead ("I'm drowning in footwear!" he
cries out in sleep... piled with shoes? Shanshus?). And no, I
don't think Spike has robbed Angel of his destiny, because Angel
has realized in Epiphany that in the end, he'll never be redeemed.
Because there's never a moment in which he can lie down, and rest,
because there is always the good fight for him. Angel knows that
every little thing matters, and I think he's stopped fighting
for his shanshu and instead, he fights for the people who need
him. And I don't think Buffy was meant to be the sacrifice this
time around. Or she or Angel may have been, according to prophecy
or predestination or the PTB. But in line with the theme of Chosen,
Spike changes this.
Like many people have said before, he's the trickster. He doesn't
follow the rules, and half the time, it gets him into deep trouble.
It's his nature to mess up the carefully laid plans of others,
from Acathla to even his own plans of torturing Angel or the St.
Vigeous Day thing way back when. And because of this, because
of the way nothing Spike does can really be predicted, he completely
screws up what the PTB may have intended. Just like Buffy does
for the girls, Spike makes it so that he isn't chosen, because
the Powers have chosen Angel long ago. Instead, he does the choosing.
For some reason, he gets it into his head that he can get a soul,
and though it seems impossible for a demon, an evil vampire, to
even consider getting a soul, he goes to Africa and gets himself
one. And by doing this, by this act of free will on his part,
he changes Angel's destiny. He rewrites the books of prophecy.
To me, Spike most thoroughly embodies the idea of choice and free
will in the series because he straddled the line between good
and evil so closely. As a bad guy, he decides against destroying
the world. Why? Just because. Because he likes things like Manchester
United and people (albeit as snack food). And as a good guy, he
decides to fight demons because he can. Not for any higher power,
not for any higher allegiance beside himself. He gets his soul
for the love of Buffy, but no one knows if this is a good love
or a bad love. It's pure emotion, unaffiliated with any side.
And because of this, Spike is the agent of free will because he
is not constrained by evil or by good. He's not a hero.
He's not a champion. He's not some larger than life figure destined
to do good or to destroy the world. He's just some random undead
guy who messes up plans through his very nature and stumbles into
the necklace of a champion. And Buffy gives it to him, because
why not? She's just started to realize for herself that she doesn't
need to be bound in by words written in books ages and ages ago.
She doesn't have to be a slave to tradition. So she lets Spike
take the mantle of the Champion and lets him take Angel's place.
And he does. And in a blaze of light, he rejects Buffy's love
("Someday she'll tell you") and gives it his own spin.
"No you don't," he says, maybe rejecting the notion
that Buffy can only love a Champion or that Buffy is destined
to love someone. Maybe he thinks Buffy sees him too much as a
mini-Angel, as another champion destined to fight the good fight.
Anyhow, in the end, Spike dies not for love (though he is love's
bitch), not for good, but just because. "I want to see how
it ends," he says, smirking all the way.
By dying, he saves the world so that all the Slayers Buffy and
Willow have awakened can make their choices as well, he gives
everyone the rest of their lives to keep living all their own
choices. He gives Angel something outside of destiny, outside
the lines of the books. He makes the decisions that Angel's fight
in Home against Jasmine tried to give to the world. And because
of this, I think he will come back human, becoming the very creature
he's been working toward all along, albeit by accident and by
bumbling, because he is the Fool. He will be human, and as such,
he will be again balanced between good and evil, and he will have
the choice that he fought so strongly for as a vampire who went
against nature.
Addendum: Maybe this is why Joyce's prophecy to Dawn never came
true. Maybe Buffy altered things so much with her gift of choice
to the girls that she completely changed the landscape. Instead
of having to choose to sacrifice Dawn or something else, Buffy
steps outside that choice entirely and writes her own third option
in.
[> Re: Amen ! and a little
more on Joyce's prophecy -- BMF,
08:31:06 05/23/03 Fri
Concerning Joyce's prophecy: Keep in mind that the only reason
Dawn is still around is that Buffy died for her. My view is that
in the "destined" order, it would be Dawn's turn to
die in order to save the world. That she doesn't have to do so
shows just how great an upset the events of "Chosen"
were. The power that Dawn held was replaced by the power of the
Scythe.
On the other hand, this means Dawn is still around for Joss to
use in a future series. Ugh!
[> Drowning in Shanhus :)
-- sassette, 08:38:47 05/23/03 Fri
I really like that.
Buffy and Willow changed the world, but Spike saved it.
I love everything you've said in this post, but that really sums
it up well.
I think what's also important is that Buffy and Willow didn't
just change the world, but showed that the world can be changed.
Because, while I think awakening the Slayers was a brilliant narrative
move, which succeeded for me so well because it worked on a literal
level, for the characters, and a metaphorical level, for the viewers,
I have been convinced by the numerous negative posts about it
that there are some logistical problems involved. However, I don't
think logistical problems are a big deal anymore, because now
we know the world can be changed. If the new way doesn't work,
Buffy and Willow can tweak it. And, if it stops working completely
(like the old way did), someone or someones in the future can
come up with a whole new way of doing things because, on BtVS
at least, the fate of the world is not set in stone.
[> Great post -- Sophist,
08:39:41 05/23/03 Fri
[> Excellent! -- mamcu,
11:09:49 05/23/03 Fri
[> Adding to the chorus
of, 'Excellent post!' -- Dyna, 12:00:18 05/23/03 Fri
[> Agree...wonderful post
(spoilers up to Home and Chosen with future spec) -- s'kat,
12:01:32 05/23/03 Fri
I'm glad you delurked, I liked that post.
People have been asking what the FE intended to do with Spike
- I think it intended to control him - but Spike kicked the FE's
control in LMPTM and even before that in Showtime. Or possibily
in Grave.
The FE, Jasmine, the PTB's, and The Watcher Council all have something
in common - they believe in predestination or pre-determination
not choice. Although the PTB's as represented by Darla in Inside
Out do attempt to tell Connor that choice is an amazing gift.
Something Angel seems to understand in PEace Out. But has Angel
ever really been given a choice in the figuring of his own destiney?
Had Buffy?
Angel doesn't claw his way out of hell - someone or something
yanks him out according to Amends. Angel doesn't save himself
or choose to live in Amends - the PTB makes it snow. Angel doesn't
choose his soul - an outside force curses him with one. Angel
doesn't choose to have a son - the son happens mystically. But
and a huge but here - as Gunn states in Inside Out - they do make
choices along the way. What I wonder would have happened if Angelus
never sired Drusilla? Or if Angel never left Sunnydale and stayed?
What would have happened if Angelus had staked Spike as the writers
orginally intended? OR if Angel decided not to accept Lilah's
amulet? Those were choices he made. Just as he made the choice
to let Buffy decide what to do with the amulet - it was his to
give to her, he did not have to.
But Angel learned something this past year when he fought Jasmine
and that is, the gift of choice is not one he's willing to squander
easily. He is through making people's choices for them - his last
one was painful enough.
And this is a huge step for Angel - if we consider the last few
times he and Buffy were together - and he made the choice. In
IWRY - he chooses without discussing it with Buffy to turn back
time and give up the chance to be human.
I often wonder what would have happened if he hadn't done it.
And in Graduation Day PArt II - when he chooses to leave town.
Now finally he says it's up to her.
And Buffy does the same thing with Spike - she doesn't make him
take it - she says it's up to him.
I agree - what I liked most about Chosen was the emphasis on choice,
free will.
And I think that's how the FE was defeated. If you look back over
the episodes - the FE won when it manipulated people to follow
traditional rules, prophecies and take choices away from others.
FE triggered Spike, manipulated him, so Spike had no choice -
he told Spike - he didn't have a choice in the matter, he never
would. It manipulated Wood by telling him that his destiney was
only vengeance, that Wood had no choices. But time and again Buffy
went against this - by removing Spike's chip - she gave Spike
free will. By leaving the house, she let the potentials choose
who to lead them. And in the end - she did not order them to follow
her into the mouth of hell - she let them choose to.
Sorry so rambly and incoherent. Hope a little made sense. ;-)
Anways..thanks for the post Oyceter...very well said.
sk
[> [> Re: Agree...wonderful
post (spoilers up to Home and Chosen with future spec) --
Oyceter, 18:04:49 05/23/03 Fri
I like the thought of Buffy giving people free will throughout
the season, especially since her earlier stance as general!Buffy
didn't so much allow for those choices. In Selfless, which I arguably
think is the beginning of her "I am the law" stance,
she doesn't really consider other options or other avenues open
and acts against Anya before Anya can decide to change, whereas
Willow thinks outside the box to summon D'Hoffryn. Then Anya (poor
Anya!) completes the motion by choosing to relinquish her own
life, although D'Hoffryn doesn't even grant her that.
Giles' prior prodding of Buffy into the role of the general also
seems to be very restricting and anti-choice, limiting her and
not allowing her to make the radical changes that she does later
on.
Hrm... just more rambly thoughts here too! Thanks for the comments!
[> I think this is a key
idea re the Scythe -- KdS, 13:17:57 05/23/03 Fri
I don't know if this was explicitly stated in the ep, not having
seen it yet. But your idea that the power that activated the potential
Slayers came from the scythe and wasn't the original demon power
is remarkably interesting from a thematic point of view, and gives
the Scythe a real, compelling reason to exist in the series that
it didn't have before.
[> [> I think of it like
the rings in LOTR (Spoilers for Chosen) -- Sophist, 14:02:54
05/23/03 Fri
Whatever the source of the Slayer power, the Guardians imbued
the Scythe with some portion of that power. Slayers since have
operated without that "extra". When Buffy wielded the
Scythe, it allowed her to access the "extra", just as,
from the opposite side, Sauron could if he had obtained the One.
To me, this makes Willow's spell more understandable. She didn't
draw power from Buffy or Faith, she drew it from the "reserve"
and distributed it.
[> [> [> Additional
thoughts on S7 and LOTR -- it's all about power (Spoilers for
Chosen) -- Sophist, 17:02:19 05/23/03 Fri
My post above left out too many steps along the way. Let me start
at the beginning.
I don't think anyone here would doubt that LOTR was on the minds
of ME for this season. Almost everyone noticed the striking resemblance
between the Turok-Han and the Uruk-Hai. The battle between the
slayers and the T-H in the Hellmouth was an obvious shout out
to the battle of Helm's Deep. The destruction of the Hellmouth
parallels the destruction on Mt. Doom after the Ring falls in.
There's a thematic connection as well. Both LOTR and S7 address
the problem of power. In what I might call the standard view of
power (or warfare), power must be concentrated in order to be
effective. In this paradigm, the solution to the problem of power
is to use it in opposition to other power.
In LOTR, we understand that Sauron will be fooled by the strategy
adopted at the Council of Elrond -- it is entirely natural for
him to expect that one among his opponents would seize the Ring
and use it to overthrow him.
Tolkien subverts this paradigm when the Council decides not to
use the Ring, but to destroy it. Implicit in this
subversion, perhaps, is the lingering sense that all power corrupts
(certainly the Ring did). Tolkien's solution to the problem of
power is to eliminate it.
Season 7 showed us Buffy's struggle with the problem of power.
My own, half-thought-out expectation was that Buffy would reach
the same solution as Tolkien had. In retrospect, I can see that
this isn't very plausible within the confines of BtVS. There is
no necessary connection between Evil and the power of the Slayer,
such that giving up the latter would eliminate the former.*
Buffy's frustration (and our own) became more and more evident
in the episodes after BOTN. She kept insisting that she alone
was in charge; we kept seeing Generalissima Buffy. Lots of critics
argued that Buffy was wrong and even questioned the message the
show seemed to be delivering. Others took the opposite view and
criticized her for not taking charge even more or for rejecting
the additional power offered her in GiD.
I think Buffy's dilemma was crueler than this. She couldn't use
the LOTR solution. That left her trapped in the standard paradigm
I described above. Within that paradigm, it's not that she was
wrong about the fact that she was in charge, it's that she was
right. Buffy felt uncomfortable with her role -- that instinct
caused her to reject the Shadowmen -- but she was trapped by the
paradigm that said power had to be concentrated and used in opposition.
Her answer wasn't wrong, the question was.
Fortunately, Joss is smarter than I am. He found an entirely different
way to subvert the standard view. Power need not be concentrated
and it need not be destroyed -- it can be shared. This
answer subverts LOTR also -- we need not fear power, we
should embrace it and share it. That's the most empowering message
of all.
*The behavior of the Shadowmen in GiD, combined with Dracula's
statements to Buffy, left most of us (including me) believing
that the Slayer power was inherently somehow "dark".
This creates a possible objection to the suggestion in my original
post that the Scythe operated as the opposite of the Ring in LOTR.
I don't think we can conclude that the power itself was "dark".
Certainly the behavior of the Shadowmen was evil. But the metaphor
in that episode clearly was rape. With rape, the evil is not sex
-- which itself is not evil (and actually quite pleasant when
shared :)) -- but the use of force to achieve it. In GiD the power
may have been "good"; the evil was forcing it on an
unconsenting girl. Only in that sense was the Slayer power "rooted
in darkness".
[> [> [> [> Excellent,
Sophist. -- HonorH, 20:23:17 05/23/03 Fri
You're very right in your comparison, I think. I also agree with
your thoughts on why Buffy failed as a general. The paradigm was
all wrong for her. Buffy's always been alone, but she's also fought
it every step of the way. Sure, she's the Slayer, and no one could
understand what that meant aside from another Slayer, but Buffy
subverted the traditions by gathering her Scooby Gang. She has
always sought out the companionship of others, drawing on their
strength and offering hers. In the end, that's what won out: Buffy's
determination to not be alone, to share what she had.
[> [> [> [> Well
done - Willow/Spike/Andrew/Anya: STSP, Help &Lessons (Spoilers
for Chosen) -- s'kat, 21:52:54 05/23/03 Fri
He found an entirely different way to subvert the standard
view. Power need not be concentrated and it need not be destroyed
-- it can be shared. This answer subverts LOTR also -- we need
not fear power, we should embrace it and share it. That's the
most empowering message of all.
In Lessons - Giles informs Willow there is nothing wrong with
the power inside her - it's how she chooses to access it that
matters. How she uses it. And Willow mentions how she wants the
either/or - take it away from me or destroy me. Willow's struggle
with her power - echoes Buffy's. It always has.
Later in Beneath You - again we have Willow worrying if her friends
can handle her, look what she's done. Again this echoes Buffy's
uncertainity about how her power effects her relationships with
others - as she later voices to Holden Webster in CwDP.
Then in STSP, We have Buffy sharing her power with Willow.
Willow is struggling to heal herself and afraid Buffy can't forgive
her. Buffy is also struggling with whether Willow can forgive
her for not trusting in her. Buffy sits cross-legged on the bed
and reaches a hand out to Willow, who has just forgiven Buffy
for not trusting in her. Buffy says - here let me help you. Willow
glances at her uncertain. Buffy responds:" I have so much
strength I'm giving it away."
In the very next episode, Help, where Willow and Xander go to
visit Tara's grave. Xander provides the power analogy.
Control. He says that the hammar can be useful - but you need
to control it - not give it too much power or too little.
Through the other characters - specifically Willow, Spike,
Anya, and Andrew - we see elements of how power can be used and
how it should be shared and not rejected entirely.
Willow rejects her power both last season (prior to going all
DarkWillow) then again shortly after the First scares her in BoTN.
Buffy tells her - to access it again, not to let her fear stop
her, to trust in her power, to take control. And we see Kennedy
echoing that message - both in the Killer in Me and later in Get
it Done. We believe she's gotten past this, but as is shown in
both End of Days and later in the beginning of Chosen - Willow
still fears her power is dark. But ...Buffy knows better - when
Willow touches and accesses the power of the scythe her hair turns
white and she glows with the warmth of the power - the power she
feared, when controlled and used for good - is pure and wonderful.
It's how and why she uses it that's important. (A very different
message than Tolkien's which is no matter what your intentions
- if the power itself is dark - it will corrupt you. With Willow
- it appears to be intentions that are important and perhaps source
as well - since in Chosen she grabs power from the scythe to give
to others and in Villains - Grave she takes it from black magic
and people - as a sort of rape.)
Spike similarily struggles with his power - which from his point
of view comes from an even darker place. He fears that if he accesses
it - he'll become the demon Buffy hates and he despises. The killer.
The thing triggered by the first. For several episodes after NLM,
possibly even before that...we see him holding back. He seems
weaker somehow. Anya even accuses him of being a wimpire and Buffy
finally calls him on it in GiD. So he accesses the power and to
the audience we see a big bad demon - complete with jacket, cigarettes,
and attitude. Buffy also removes the external control mechanism
- the chip - which regulates his demonic power - preventing him
from hurting humans - in effect telling him - he can control himself.
But he still believes it's only dark. Like Willow - it depends
on where he gets it from and how he uses it along with why. If
he takes it from human blood and uses it to hurt others - then
yes, it is dark but in Chosen - the power comes from his soul
- he gets it from the amulet, the sun and his soul - the power
comes from his humanity and his capability to love not from his
blood and not from the demon. And it is that power that cleanses
all around it of the dark demonic energy which lives to take -
this is similar to say Gandalf's energy vs. Sauron's, or if you
prefer the Hobbit Frodo vs. Gollum. When we do things out of pure
love and desire to give to the world as opposed to a taking -
the power can be good.
Spike like Willow is bathed in golden light when he chooses to
do this.
Contrast the Spike/Willow color scheme in Chosen with the Spike/Willow
color scheme in SR-Villains, where in Chosen they access the good
power and are bathed in golden light, warm colors and in SR (Spike)
and Villains (willow) they are stripped of color and in shades
of black and white.
Anya and Andrew are egually used to discuss power choices.
Andrew is seeking power to be a god. The FE tempts him with it
in Chosen - telling him if he kills Jonathan the FE will imbue
him with power. Andrew slowly realizes that killing does not empower
him. When we reach Storyteller - he learns that his tears have
more power than killing his friend did.
His tears can deactivate the seal, while killing his friend barely
managed to open it. By End of Days and Chosen - Andrew starts
to see the power in just sharing yourself with others - and he
does not need to be a god to have it.
Same with Anya - see chooses to become a vengeance demon in Hells
Bells - thinking she'll be powerful, but by the time we reach
Selfless she realizes killing and destroying others does not make
her powerful - it's empty somehow, not satisfying. Oddly enough
she feels the most empowered and has the most fun in a wheelchair
fight with Andrew or fighting the demons by Andrew's side. Earlier
she attempted to obtain meaning by torturing Andrew, by the end
she finds meaning and power by befriending him. She gave up the
power D'Hoffryn gave her to kill - and as a result felt more empowered
by the end.
I think the message is that power in of itself is not bad, it's
how we choose to use it and how we access it that makes it good/bad/
or grey. Sort of what Gandalf and Galderial (the elf Queen) tell
Frodo in Fellowship of the Ring - the ring is bad because it was
forged in evil - it's purpose was to corrupt and its power is
that which takes.
But power in of itself isn't bad - they both have it and Galaderial
has a ring which doesn't corrupt her. Same with Buffy - her power
isn't bad, it's how the Shadowmen attempted to give the slayer
the power that is.
[> [> [> [> Re:
Additional thoughts on S7 and LOTR -- it's all about power (Spoilers
for Chosen) -- aliera, 06:27:45 05/24/03 Sat
Ohhhh...thanks Sophist... nothing to add except I've saved this
one and my appreciation of the Tolkien reference... when I'm not
here or at Surlalane I'm likely on a Tolkien site. I'll be mulling
this a bit; not just a good post but there's the roots of a longer
piece here...not from me of course!
Rings
Separated from his power, Sauron was vanquished and seemingly
disappeared from Middle-earth. Tolkien's view on the use of power
is revealed in another one of his Letters:
"The Ring of Sauron is only one of the various mythical
treatments of the placing of one's life, or power, in some external
object, which is thus exposed to capture or destruction with disastrous
results to oneself. If I were to `philosophize' this myth, or
at least the Ring of Sauron, I should say it was a mythical way
of representing the truth that potency (or perhaps rather potentiality)
if it is to be exercised, and produce results, has to be externalized
and so as it were passes, to a greater or less degree, out of
one's direct control." [The Letters of JRR Tolkien #211]
From: Anwyn
So Tolkien divides power into two headings: The natural kind,
proceeding from the desire of the being to sub-create, and 'magic:'
a deliberate use of devices or machines with a corrupted motive...it
seems clear that Tolkien regarded extraordinary power as part
of the natural birthright of individual beings, and as such, therefore,
the exercise of that power was simply part of the settled order
of events. Not magic, but just the use by each individual of the
power vested in him or her-to the best and highest of his or her
own abilities, be they the greatest of the great or the smallest
of the small.
[> Wow! Great Post!
-- Wizard, 16:14:16 05/23/03 Fri
I'm not sure I agree with all of it, but it is a beautifully thought
out and written post.
Re: Joyce's prophecy: I think it came true. It came true when
Buffy sent Dawn out of town with Xander. Buffy did not
choose Dawn... but Dawn, with her free will, said "Screw
that!," zapped Xander with a taser, and drove right back
(and if her driving is anything like Buffy's, I'm surprised they
made it in one piece!). When Buffy saw Dawn, she gave in. She
chose to give in, mostly because she realized that Dawn would
find a way back. These choices don't negate the prophecy.
Spike as the Trickster/Fool: Hell, yeah. He's proven himself in
both capacities, and more than once. When he told Buffy "No,
you don't" I interpreted it as Spike saying that Buffy doesn't
love him romantically- we, the viewers, know that she does love
him, but never in the way he wanted, not really. He'll take what
he can get, though, and be happy for it. Buffy empowered Spike
when she gave him the amulet. When he said that he wanted to see
how it ends, he was telling the truth- that's the kind of guy
he is- but he was also doing it for her, in a way, because she
gave him the power to finally spit in the First's face.
Ocetyr, have you ever read a trilogy titled "The Fionavar
Tapestry" by Guy Gavriel Kay? Your idea of Spike taking the
place of Angel or Buffy as the sacrifice is remarkably similar
to an event in that series (I won't say any more, to prevent spoilers
for the books, because they rock and I can't recommend them enough!)
Spike, Angel, and the Shanshu: Spike will probably shanshu, but
I agree that he set the PTB's plans back. Unless... the prophecies
meant it to be Spike all along, and Angel was meant to serve as
a John the Baptist/decoy to Spike's Jesus/Real Thing. But even
if that's the case, I think that Spike might help Angel get his
humanity- or, like the Wizard of Oz, help him to realize that
he had it all the time, and in so doing, become human. If Angel
is the prophecied vamp, his shanshu isn't going to come as a reward.
It's going to come as a result of doing his duty, not a reward,
just a very special and beneficial consequence (consequences,
though often used negatively, aren't always bad).
Spike will almost certainly play a role in Connor finding out
who he really is. I, for one, can't wait for Spike and Connor
to meet. I can just imagine the look on Angel's face if they bond!
[> [> Re: Wow! Great
Post! (Spoilers for Guy Gavriel Kay's Fionavar Tapestry) --
Oyceter, 18:14:25 05/23/03 Fri
Ocetyr, have you ever read a trilogy titled "The Fionavar
Tapestry" by Guy Gavriel Kay? Your idea of Spike taking the
place of Angel or Buffy as the sacrifice is remarkably similar
to an event in that series (I won't say any more, to prevent spoilers
for the books, because they rock and I can't recommend them enough!)
Wow, that's exactly what I was thinking about when I first wrote
the post! I think that's why this episode resonated so much with
me -- I saw choice and free will in both Chosen and in Home as
something like Owein's Hunt in the book. They're what makes us
human, but their existence is also what lets evil into the world.
I loved the idea of Spike as Diarmuid in the book, who cared a
great deal about the world but always disguised it and always
put it under something flippant ("For the honor of the Black
Boar" versus "For Manchester United and Happy Meals
on legs"), who very casually steps out on the battlefield
where he should not be, and by doing so, changes everything. I
also saw him as a sort of figure like Darien, the random factor,
poised between good and evil and able to make an uninfluenced
choice between them.
I'm so happy someone else has read those books!
[> [> Agree with this
spec Wizard, nice post (vague spoilers Home) -- s'kat, 21:58:21
05/23/03 Fri
Spike will almost certainly play a role in Connor finding out
who he really is. I, for one, can't wait for Spike and Connor
to meet. I can just imagine the look on Angel's face if they bond!
Personally, I really hope the rumors aren't true and they bring
back Connor. I want to see him on Ats more than Willow or Buffy
at this point. I felt his story still needs closure. But that
may just be me. ;-)
[> [> [> Spoilers
for Ats S4 finale in above post & future cast spec -- s'kat,
21:59:34 05/23/03 Fri
[> *whistling appreciately*
Most impressive! *applauds* -- Whisper2AScream, 16:40:10
05/23/03 Fri
Well done treatise. Hadn't really thought of Spike in the Trickster
vein, but it does suit him. A teacher but one who shows what's
needed to learn, not what people want to learn. Harsh and cruel,
but ultimately a great help.
Spike has always been closer to human than Angel ever has, alive
or undead. Hence him "Shanshu-ing" would be more logical.
(would write more on this, but pressed for time, sorry)
Get out of
my Face!.....spoilers for Chosen -- Rufus, 03:15:18 05/23/03
Fri
From the Shooting Script for Buffy 7.22 Chosen
40. INT. SUNNYDALE HIGH SCHOOL NORTH HALL DAY
A few of them come at Anya -- who's pretty good with a sword --
and Andrew, who's Jerry Lewis with a sword, but somehow managing
to keep them at bay....
A group of five Bringers appears in the hall behind them, all
armed with knives and swords.
41. INT. CAVERN - DAY
Spike is fighting, off in the corner, gets momentarily wigged
by the amulet on his chest.
Spike: Uh, Buffy...?
But she is in the heat of battle.
Spike (cont.): Whatever this thing does... I think it's AHHHH!
He drops to his knees, stunned by pain.
ANGLE: A SLAYER that we don't know is lept on and bitten by a
vamp, goes down.
Buffy sees this, sees the army not getting any smaller. Faith
comes back to back with her. She is exhausted but game.
Faith: Think it's too late to talk this thing out?
Buffy: (calls out to the girls) Keep the line together! Drive
them to the edge, we can't let them --
A sword slices through her back, pops out her belly, retracts.
Everything gets quiet. Buffy looks about her, unsteady, as Faith
tackles the vamp behind her that's about to finish her off.
Buffy falls slowly to the ground, face first. [My addition, it
looked like her death in Prophecy Girl]
END Of ACT THREE
ACT FOUR
42 INT. SUNNYDALE HIGH SCHOOL ATRIUM DAY
Xander swings his sword, is driven back by vamps -- and Dawn yanks
a rope, pulls a tarp off the skylight, sunlight pouring in and
BURNING the three vamps.
Xander: We call that the greenhouse effect....Very dangerous..
One other leaps on Xander, tackling him, weaponless, as Dawn grabs
a sword, swings --
43. INT. SUNNYDALE HIGH SCHOOL NORTH HALL DAY
Wood, being pushed back with Giles, sees three Bringers approaching
from behind, hurls a knife into one of their throats with perfect
precision.
44. INT. SUNNYDALE HIGH SCHOOL - NORTH HALL - DAY
The Bringers descend on Andrew and Anya, driving them apart --
Andrew toward the north hall, Anya down the adjacent hall that
leads outside. Andrew goes down holding his sword out pathetically,
a Bringer leaping onto him with a knife.
Anya slashes one, drops it -- and another comes from the side,
she turns and is gutted, the Bringer stabbing her repeatedly as
she drops, dead.
45. INT. CAVERN DAY
Faith makes her way to Buffy, who still lies on the ground.
Faith: Buffy?
Buffy: (weakly) Hold the line.....
And she holds out her scythe to Faith. A moment, and Faith takes
it. Stabs the guy behind her without looking at him. And goes
apeshit on the fuckers.
ANGLE: SPIKE
Searing pain racks his body. He tosses away a vamp, confusion
and pain on his face. He clutches his stomach.
ANGLE: FAITH
Rona!
And tosses the Scythe to her as she is buried in vamps. Rona grabs
it, starts hacking.
Buffy still wheezes, looking at legs and feet, everything a bit
blurred, as Amanda drops right in front of her, eyes wide, very
dead.
46. INT. SUNNYDALE HIGH SCHOOL LOUNGE DAY
Wood is fighting a Bringer, who slices him badly in the chest.
Ubervamps run past him and Giles, free to escape into the next
building.
47. INT. CAVERN DAY
Two more Slayers fall, girls we don't know. Kennedy is backed
against a wall, her weapon knocked from her hand -- trying to
steady herself...
Buffy still lies on the ground, looks up to see:
Yup, Buffy, or rather The First. Smiling at her, looking exactly
like her, wound and all.
Buffy/First: Ooh! Ow! Mommy! This mortal wound is all itchy! (leans
in) You pulled a nice trick. Hey, you came pretty close to smacking
me down. What more to you want?
Buffy pulls herself up on her hands, fury in her eyes.
Buffy: I want you...to get out of my face.
The First looks suddenly worried.
SLO MO: Buffy rises. Sweaty, bloodied, hair in her face, but nothing
but resolve in her eyes. The First is nowhere in sight as she
takes a step forward, two, stumbling, hunched steps....
Rona sees her and throws her the scythe. Buffy catches it. Stands
a little straighter.
And SCREAMS, and swings the back of the axe like it's a bat, knocking
five vamps back and over the edge in one blow. Sauron himself
would be, like, "dude...."
ANGLE: The pile of vamps on Faith flies back as she kicks out
-- Faith kips up, also bloodied, and unbroken.
And the girls turn the tide, forcing the vamps back, many of them
falling over the edge -- and at least one Slayer going with them.
ANGLE: SPIKE stumbles under the Seal opening.
SPIKE: Oh, bollocks.
And energy SHOOTS up from him, straight throu
48. INT. SUNNYDALE HIGH SEAL CHAMBER CONT.
and up into
49. INT. SUNNYDALE HIGH PRINCIPAL WOOD'S OFFICE CONTINUING...
bursting through the floor, narrowly missing the still-prone Willow,
and continuing through the ceiling, from whence the noon sun pours
straight back down.
Willow: I didn't do that...
50. INT. CAVERN - CONTINUING
The sun hits Spike and he is pinned, pain and something else building
in him.
Spike: Buffy...
She sees, races to him--
Buffy: Spike!
And has to dive out of the way as a prismed ray of pure soulful
sunlight blast out of the amulet and into the cavern. It wipes
our vamps instantly -- and even starts tearing apart the cavern.
Faith: Everybody out! Now!
The girls fight their way to the exit. Everything is shaking.
Buffy comes to Spike. He is pinned in place, energy still blasting
from him.
Spike: I can feel it Buffy.
Buffy: What?
Spike: My soul. It's really there. Kinda stings.
51. INT. SAME DAY
As debris falls and everything shakes, the Slayers run out toward
the entrance.
52. EXT. SUNNYDALE HIGH SCHOOL CONTINUING
Giles is helping Wood toward:
Wood: The bus! Get 'em on the bus!
Giles: Everybody! This way!
53. INT. SUNNYDALE HIGH SCHOOL - DAY
Kennedy helps Willow out, as Dawn pulls on Xander, who is calling
out:
Xander: Anya! Anya!
We see, as he cannot, her corpse, hidden by debris and fallen
Bringers.
ANGLE: A BRINGER -- the one that jumped on Andrew falls away,
Andrew's sword in his chest. Andrew is bloodied but alive, and
completely wigged by the fact.
Andrew: Why.....
A girl grabs him, hauls him out.
54. INT. CAVERN - CONTINUING
Buffy hasn't left Spike's side.
Spike: Go in, then...
Buffy: You've done enough, you can still --
Spike: No. You beat 'em back, it's for me to do the clean up.
Faith calls from the entrance:
Faith: Buffy! Come on!
Then falling debris makes her bail.
Stuff is falling around Buffy and Spike as well.
Spike: Gotta move lamb. I think it's fair to say school's out
for bloody summer.
ANGLE: THE CAVERN
is collapsing at the top and bottom -- the actual school falling
in on the vamps.
Buffy: Spike....
Spike: I mean it. I gotta do this.
His hand is held up, frozen in his rictus of revelatory pain.
Buffy takes her own hand, interlocks it with his. A moment, and
both hands burst into flames.
54. CONTINUED
We hold close on the two of them, ignoring the flames, looking
at each other.
Buffy: I love you.
A moment. He smiles kindly.
Spike: No you don't. But thanks for saying it.
A big quake rocks them, Spike pushes her away.
Spike: It's your world up there. Now GO!
She looks at him and bolts.
He looks back at the destruction in front of him, smiles wickedly.
Spike: I wanna see how it ends. [another note, reminds me of what
Wood said about mysteries earlier this year in Help]
So, that was a big chunk of the battle there. But go back to
where the First appears as a wounded Buffy......and Buffy tells
it to get out of her face. Then the First gets worried....why?
I think part of that is seen in who we've seen the First as many
times this year....people/demons who died who have power. But,
in Lessons, the last person the First morphs into is Buffy....because
Buffy may not have known it but she had the most power. The Firsts
power is illusory...dependant upon the reaction of a person to
seeing someone they once knew and doubting themselves because
of what the First as someone else says to them. Buffy broke that
by telling the First to get out of her face.....literally and
figuratively. The First had no more Caleb to merge with....and
he seemed to be the only one it could merge with. And Buffy no
longer felt any doubt, jealousy, or fear....the First could use
against her. So, the last visage to disappear is the last one
we saw in Lessons..the First as Buffy.
"By our interactions with
each other we redeem us all." ML Von
Franz
The very thing that was the worst weakness of the Slayer was
the one that Buffy finally figured out could be changed. Just
because one set of rules had been made, the existance of Kendra
then Faith, proved it wasn't malleable. Not only could the Potentials
be given the power formerly held by just one, then two....but
the help of everyone else was needed for complete victory in this
battle. Each participant on Buffy's side was valuable....male,
female, young, slightly older, demon, ex-demon. What was once
only a spark inside of Spike became a radient beam of light that
cleansed the cavern. And he and Buffy shared the same flame....before
he let her go...told her to go where she belonged.
From An Illustrated Encyclopaedia of Traditional Symbols by J.C.
Cooper
Fire/Flame: Transformation; purification; the lifegiving
and generative power of the sun; renewal of life; impregnation;
power; strength; energy; the unseen energy in existence; sexual
power; defence; protection; visibility; destruction; fusion; passion;
immolation; change or passage from one state to another; the medium
for conveying messages or offerings heavenward. Fire manifested
as flame symbolizes spiritual power and forces, transcendence
and illumination, and is a manifestation of divinity or of the
soul, the pneuma, the breath of life; it is also inspiration and
enlightenment. A flame resting on the head, or surrounding it
like the NIMBUS, represents divine power, potency of soul or genius,
the head being regarded as the seat of the life-soul. A flame
leaves the body at death. Fire and flame can both typify the heart.
Both are ambivalent as being either divine or demonic, creative
or destructive; they are means of devouring all created things
to return them to original unity. Both represent truth and
knowledge as consumers of lies, ignorance, illusion and death
and as scorchers of the impure Baptism by fire restores primordial
purity by burning away the dross and is associated with passing
through fire to regain Paradise which, since it was lost, has
been surrounded by fire or protected by guardians, with swords
of flame, who symbolize understanding barring the way to the ignorant
or unenlightened.
Ironic that the vampire who was so pathetic at the beginning
of the year can move past what The First said in Lessons.....
SPIKE: I had a speech. I learned it all. (shakes his head) Oh,
god, she won't understand, she won't understand.
He moves his arms to cover his head. Someone walks past him, pacing.
VOICE: Of course she won't understand, Sparky.
It's Warren. He stops behind Spike and addresses him.
WARREN: I'm beyond her understanding. She's a girl! Sugar and
spice and everything... (gestures dismissively) useless unless
you're baking.
Spike listens, holding still now, staring at the ground.
WARREN: (walking forward) I'm more than that. More than flesh...
Warren morphs into Glory (Season 5 villain).
GLORY: ...more than blood. I'm ... you know, I honestly don't
think there's a human word fabulous enough for me.
Spike watches her over his shoulder warily.
GLORY: Oh, my name will be on everyone's lips. Assuming their
lips haven't been torn off.
Spike looks down at the floor again.
GLORY: But not just yet. That's all right though.
Glory paces forward again and morphs into Adam (Season 4 villain).
ADAM: I can be patient. Everything is well within parameters.
(turns) She's exactly where I want her to be. (looks down at Spike)
And so are you, Number 17. (Spike looking wary) You're right where
you belong.
Adam starts to kneel down, and morphs into Mayor Wilkins. He crouches
next to Spike.
MAYOR: So what'd you think, you'd get your soul back and everything
would be jim-dandy? Soul's slipperier than a greased weasel, why
do you think I sold mine? (laughing) Well, you probably thought
that ... you'd be your own man. And I respect that.
The Mayor lifts his hand to touch Spike's face.
MAYOR: But you-
DRUSILLA: -never will.
It's Drusilla's hand that caresses Spike's cheek as he continues
to not look at her/it.
DRUSILLA: You'll always be mine. You'll always be in the dark
with me. Singing our little songs. You like our little songs,
don't you? You've always liked them, right from the beginning.
(leans closer, whispers) And that's where we're going.
Drusilla morphs into The Master, and he stands up again.
MASTER: Right back to the beginning. Not the bang ... not the
word ... the true beginning.
He begins to pace again. Spike continues staring at the floor,
hugging his knees.
MASTER: The next few months are going to be quite a ride. And
I think we're all going to learn something about ourselves in
the process. You'll learn you're a pathetic schmuck ... if it
hasn't sunk in already. Look at you. (scornfully) Tried to do
what's right. Just like her. You still don't get it. It's not
about right. Not about wrong.
The Master paces past Spike again. Close on Spike's face still
staring at the floor.
Pan across Spike and back over. But now it's Buffy, standing there
with her arms folded.
BUFFY: It's about power.
Power, it has been all about power, and for a good part of
the year, Buffy felt powerless as Potentials were killed and her
confidence waned. But as the end was foretold in Lessons....it
was Buffy who had the power...the power to get all those people
together, and for everyone to work past doubt and fear til The
First was defeated....by ignoring it, and Buffy learning that
to be strong you sometimes need help.
[> Re: Get out of my Face!.....spoilers
for Chosen and End of Days -- LadyStarlight, 08:05:17 05/23/03
Fri
Great post, Rufus. This line: MASTER: Right back to the beginning.
Not the bang ... not the word ... the true beginning. suddenly
made me think of the Shadowmen and the First Slayer.
The bang of their staffs on the ground, the word
they used to complete the spell, the true beginning of
the Slayer line.
Willow did go 'back to the beginning' and free the Slayer line
from the restraints the Shadowmen put on it. It also looked like
she had help from the woman Caleb killed -- at least that's what
I assumed the hair thing was.
[> [> arrgh - dropped
tag! Sorry. -- LadyStarlight, 08:08:45 05/23/03 Fri
[> [> willow's hair
-- tam, 21:49:30 05/23/03 Fri
i thought the hair changing thing symbolized good magic -- as
opposed to last year when willow's hair became black with evil
magic, this year it became white with good magic. (but then you
go into the whole "white good, black bad" thing -- always
hated that)
[> [> [> I agree with
Tam. It was... -- Briar Rose, 15:23:30 05/24/03 Sat
Magick used for bad makes black haired Willow. Magick used for
good makes white haired Willow.
Yes - she looked "old" for a moment there, but IMO it
was not intended as much as a side effect illusion of the white
hair on her face. Anyone with bleached/white hair tends to show
up their facial flaws, especially if you aren't used to seeing
them with "old person" hair.
And I alos agree with the point tam made about the "black"
and "white" thing as being annoying. For one thing it
smacks of bigotry and for another, magick in and of itself is
neutral. It's the intnet giving to the energy it involves and
for what purpose that makes it have any "good" or "bad"
use.
Kudos to ME for FINALLY getting that! I will not so humbly hope
that all my rants on how ME dismisses and deamonizes magick and
it's practitioners was finally addressed in this last episode.*L
The squeeky wheel sometimes gets the grease in this world.;)
[> [> [> [> Re:
I agree with Tam. It was... -- Rufus, 19:30:34 05/24/03
Sat
Kudos to ME for FINALLY getting that! I will not so humbly
hope that all my rants on how ME dismisses and deamonizes magick
and it's practitioners was finally addressed in this last episode.*L
The squeeky wheel sometimes gets the grease in this world.;)
I think in a show where growing up is a destination, the use or
demonization of magic serves a purpose about the state of mind
of the user. Willow had some problems with self-image that turned
dark when she became addicted to the rush of power magic gave
her. So, regardless of the black/white symbolism, I feel that
magic is what you make of it, like your own life. Willow's descent
into dark magic mirrored how she felt about herself, her return
to white magic tells us how far she has come.
[> 'Useless unless you're
baking.' -- sassette, 08:20:34 05/23/03 Fri
Great post.
And that "useless unless you're baking" thing is funny
in light of Buffy's "cookie dough" metaphor.
[> [> I'm anxiously awaiting
SMGs line of frozen cookie dough:: -- WickedBuffy, 09:37:34
05/23/03 Fri
Buffys quick-rising Cookie Dough. "Can't bake? Don't worry.
Buffys Quick-Rising Cookie Dough survives anything you do to it.
*caution, may take years to actually become edible."
Willows own brand of haircoloring products. "Now you can
change the color of your hair as easily as changing your emotions!"
Faiths clothing line led by the all-new fastest Unbuckling Belts
in the universe "All you need is one hand and half a second
to drop your pants"
Spikes Never-Fail Briquets "Lightening quick charcoal!
Sear hundreds of pounds of meat in just seconds! Feed the family,
feed the whole neighborhood!"
Xanders Stylin' Flannels w/matching eyepatches ...... too horrid
to ....go .....on
[> [> [> LOL --
mamcu, 11:18:59 05/23/03 Fri
Robin Wood's Weight Loss Program: Lose ugly stomach fat fast
with Instant Liposuction!
[> [> [> When Buffy
Meets HSN LMAO!!*NT* -- Whisper2AScream, 16:19:00 05/23/03
Fri
[> I *so* love Joss!
-- HonorH, 20:06:19 05/23/03 Fri
His shooting scripts are just the funniest to read. "Sauron
himself would be, like, 'dude!'" I'm dyin' here! Apparently,
the resemblance to Helm's Deep and the Caverns of Isengard wasn't
exactly a mistake.
[> [> Re: I *so* love
Joss! -- Rufus, 21:55:54 05/23/03 Fri
Well, I certainly didn't come up with the "f" word used....;)
[> RThe beat of the ocean,
the rhythm of the fire (spoilers for Chosen) -- fresne, 11:50:27
05/24/03 Sat
So, weird to think my only reaction thus far was in a complaint
thread and, uh, errr, I loved Chosen. It had a beat and you could
dance to it.
Watching it and hearing the rhythm of my heart as those last unspoiled
moments slipped away. Into the desert and the winding road.
I love road trips. Okay, I love travel. But there's just something
about a road across a desert. Black tarmac curving slicing through
the dust. What can I say? I'm an American. Road trips. They're
like a Constitutional right or something.
And the Sunnydale that was in that strange liminal luminal place
that was on the sea, in the mountains, with forests and the trees
and the clean vast desert. What was once night now day.
The desert
Where the son of God is tempted. Where only mad Englishmen like
to roam. Where Buffy talked to the First Slayer. Where she has
to love, give, forgive. Burn brightly. Where Buffy'll be a fireman
when the floods role back.
The sound of my beating heart. The sound of the waves pulling
back from the shore.
I consider where all the characters were at the beginning of the
season. Willow in green England connected to the earth. Spike
deep in the earth. The spark burns. Anya so powerful that nations
burned. Dawn and Xander and Buffy in their little quazi family.
Ow, forget the beginning of the season. Farther. The beginning
of the series. Buffy dreaming of girls and monsters and look school.
Seven years (well, technically six and half, but whatever)
Buffy clawing her way out of the earth in book ended set. Preceded
by her seraphim flight Joinings that saw bullets into doves. Graduation
to Summer. Farewell to love with a kiss.
God, first season. Everyone so plump and un-plucked partridge
young.
We've come a long way. From rejecting being the Slayer to having
so much power that she's giving it away. "The" into
"a".
Willow turning from the softer side of Sears to black taking to
the everything give of white. Nifty.
I'm entranced by that image of the clasped hands. Fingers threaded
and then burst into flames. Buffy, who has always been the hands,
letting go.
I'm reminded of an interview with JM from, I think, second season.
He said something like he hoped that whenever it was that they
killed Spike, that he'd get a good death. Not a staking, but you
know, be hit by a train or something.
I'd say he got his wish five years later.
Cleansing, purifying fire. Pretty.
It's all about power. Or was that control? Or was that choice?
Maybe it's just letting all of the irrelevancies melt away.
Am I worried about the logistics of a thousand or so girls now
made super roaming the world? No more than I am of demon clans
and electo women and monks who can make girls of sugar and spice
and everything useless unless you're baking.
I feel like I should have some sort of profound wa, but really
I'm still mulling. That strange scene with Spike and Buffy standing
on opposite sides of that basement just looking at each other.
Dawn kicking Buffy's shin, "If you die, I'm telling."
Letting go of parental control. Dawn is what, 16. The age that
Buffy was when she went into the earth to face the Master. When
so many possibilities were opened up.
Prophecy Girl. Chosen. Choosing. All the potentialities of power
opening like that flower from Paraguay.
Connected. Remembering that the earth is dark with teeth, but
the green reaches up yearning to the light.
And I consider Anya. She wasn't necessarily well served by the
latter end of the season. But for her to raise a weapon to protect
something that she had loathed for so long. What she had planned
to barter for love and respect so long ago. Having given up vast
dark connected power, she fights for the confused milling mass
that is us. Floppy eared and soft. Velveteen rabbits and wooden
boys into real.
Shopping for shoes. Drowning in souls.
It seems that when the Hellmouth ate them, it did indeed choke.
And then itself consumed into itself.
A fitting, well, prye isn't really right, monument for all the
fallen. A dimple in the earth. Like the vision of hell in Dante,
the cone pit made when power to himself grasping bright Lucifer
fell.
Now that they've climbed out to see once more the blazing sun,
time enough to travel round to find Purgatory. To bake. To sleep,
perchance to dream not of Slayers who have died, but who live
and struggle and grow in the light.
No longer lights hidden under a bushel. Free to burn or shine
as they choose.
Neat.
Keen.
Nifty.
Not doomed, just work to be done. The work of living.
Where do they go from here?
Where not?
[> [> A cool, stream-of-consciousness
summing-up of Buffy. Thanks, Fresne. -- HonorH, 12:00:30
05/24/03 Sat
[> [> Beautiful--thanks
-- mamcu, 12:33:57 05/24/03 Sat
[> [> Lovely--a keeper
(my AtP file is getting so long!) -- Dariel, 13:07:55 05/24/03
Sat
[> [> [> Ditto
-- tomfool, 07:47:06 05/25/03 Sun
So, the reason
FE chose this time to destroy the world was.... (spec/spoilers
EndOfDays) -- WickedBuffy, 09:09:40 05/23/03 Fri
... because it had to before Buffy or someone else figured out
that there didn't have to be just "one" Slayer at a
time.
(ignore this if it's been posted - I got too far behind to
read every post, apologies if it's a repeat)
The mystical forces that had become "irrevocably altered,
become unstable, vulnerable" were actually the propaganda
spiels the Shadowmen had created. The dictate that there was just
one Slayer per generation. And the Watchers reinforced that by
stressing the Slayer remain alone. (What does that say about the
Shadowmen, then? implications implications)
When Kendra and Faith were activated - then Faith and Buffy remained
making two Slayers living at the same time - the FE realized it
better destroy the whole Slayer line before they caught on and
realized that there really didn't have to be just one Slayer battling
all evil. Dying young and fast and pretty much outnumbered overall
by demons. There could be Slayers everywhere. Evil would never
win have a chance to win again if that came about.
It was the First's hold on the world that had become unstable
and vulnerable.
Showtime
GILES: If The First has been around for all time, then why hasn't
it attempted something like this before? Why now?
BELJOXA'S EYE: The opportunity has only recently presented itself.
GILES: Opportunity?
BELJOXA'S EYE: The mystical forces surrounding the chosen line
have become irrevocably altered, become unstable, vulnerable.
ANYA: Something The First did?
BELJOXA'S EYE: The First Evil did not cause the disruption, only
seized upon it to extinguish the lives of the chosen forever.
GILES: Then what has caused the disruption? What-what is responsible
for letting this happen?
BELJOXA'S EYE: The slayer.
[> or maybe the above was
SPOILERS/CHOSEN -- WickedIdiot, 09:52:03 05/23/03 Fri
[> Re: So, the reason FE
chose this time to destroy the world was.... (spec/spoilers EndOfDays)
-- Belladonna, 10:01:39 05/23/03 Fri
But if the reason the mystical forces surrounding the slayer line
were unstable is that there were two slayers alive at one time,
then why didn't the first do this in season 2? Or 3? There have
been two slayers around since then. It was hinted that it wasn't
just that Buffy lived that altered things, it was how she was
resurrected. I don't get it...it seems like a major plotline left
dangling.
[> [> Maybe they had
to leave it dangling -- lunasea, 10:07:15 05/23/03 Fri
We still don't know what it wanted back in Amends. It's goal was
either Angel kill Buffy or that Angel kills himself. We still
don't really know why. It is completely possible that Joss is
saving this for when Angel wraps up or for the movies.
I was hoping for more resolution about Amends this season and
I got nada. Maybe there is a reason for this.
In Joss I trust.
[> [> Time in other dimensions
can be completely different than in ours. -- WickedBuffy (it's
been illustrated a few times by Joss), 10:43:20 05/23/03 Fri
[> [> It only makes sense
for me if I think it was waiting for the right vessel... --
yez, 11:05:51 05/23/03 Fri
... and/or amassing all those übervamps under the hellmouth.
I mean, maybe it wasn't until Caleb crossed some specific line
that he was evil enough and strong enough to become the FE's vessel.
And then Caleb was apparently off questing for the scythe, so
that had to take up some time.
But actually I'm not sure that this whole FE plotline bears up
to too much scrutiny. Or maybe all will be revealed on Angel next
year.
[> [> Well, too, it takes
time -- mamcu the negotiator, 11:23:15 05/23/03 Fri
even for an Ultimate Power to call up an army and get it into
place, right? What do we know about Ubervamp transport vehicles,
negotiating treaties with other Hell dimensions, those ugly behind-the-scenes
attempts to get the United Demons to sign on?
[> [> [> I wonder
if UberVamps are made from clay? bred from ParentalVamps? exdemons
sired by an UberVamp? -- WickedBuffy, 13:57:00 05/23/03
Fri
[> [> [> tangent:
'united demons' (spoilers chosen) -- gillie, 13:59:59 05/23/03
Fri
this comment made me remember something that's been
irking me. after the big talks with hallfrek and
d'hoffryn at the beginning of S7 about choosing sides,
etc, was anyone else expecting there to be more than
just ubervamps to fight? where were the other demons
who were siding with the FE in this great conflict?
just a dropped ball plot-wise? or more to come?
[> [> [> [> mebbe
UberVamps are ex-other-demons sired by another already made UberVamp?
-- WickedBuffy (so, they *were* there, in a way), 14:12:44
05/23/03 Fri
[> [> [> [> Problems
like that everywhere! -- mamcu, 09:33:13 05/24/03 Sat
[> [> Re: So, the reason
FE chose this time to destroy the world was.... (spec/spoilers
EndOfDays) -- Rook, 11:28:55 05/23/03 Fri
I'd guess it's because of Spike.
There was obviously a prophecy about a Champion with a soul and
the amulet being instrumental in this battle. In early S2 the
FE might have made a move, and maybe the Bringers were even working
on things at that point. But then Angel lost his soul, so the
danger didn't seem as pressing. After Angel comes back, and the
FE shows up and tries to get rid of him, and is chased off by
Buffy. Then Angel leaves, once again leaving the FE some breathing
space...enough time to build a much bigger bringer army, or find
Caleb or whatever else it was doing. Then Spike gets his soul
back, and the FE knows it has to act in a hurry, hopefully eliminating
(or corrupting - it seemed equally satisfied to either have Angel
kill Buffy or himself in Amends) Spike before the final battle.
[> [> Why the First Struck
Now -- Rob, 11:31:51 05/23/03 Fri
(a) The First required a great deal of time to enact its plan
and gather its forces. Just the fact that it had to gain access
to the mystical flabotanum by which the Watchers are able to find
Potentials.
(b)Also, the mystical forces surrounding the Slayer may have taken
a while to weaken. Here's how I see it: Buffy died once, another
Slayer was called. The power passes to Kendra. Xander then resurrects
Buffy, and now the power is alive in two girls simultaneously,
as far as we know an unprecedented event. Now the forces enacted
by the Shadowmen are a bit weaker. But not much, because things
start to continue as per usual. Kendra dies, Faith is called.
Everything is proceeding as usual. But then, Faith starts rebelling,
using her powers for evil. This is put under control, though,
when she is saved by Angel, and then put in jail. There is only
one active Slayer again...Buffy. All is well. But then Buffy dies
again, and here an anomaly is caused. One Slayer dies, another
is called. So on the one hand, the forces will feel the need to
call another Slayer, while on the other, they know they can't
call more than one for the death of the same girl. So the forces
weaken even more. But the First still can't act, because even
though Faith is incarcerated, there still is a Slayer, and even
better, everything is back on track, mystically. There's one Slayer
again, and the line will continue as it should. [Although one
might argue that this would have bene a good time for the First
to strike, we don't know how active an eye the First had on Sunnydale
at this point. Word never spread about Buffy's death, since most
believed she was still alive due to the Buffybot. The Watcher's
Council never knew about her death, and thus probably most forces
didn't. Even if the First did know, there is the issue of time
I mentioned in (a).] But then Buffy is resurrected, and again
the power is diverted. As I theorized before, just having more
than one Slayer at once weakens the mystical forces that control
the calling of the Slayer. Worse, although it hasn't happened
yet, Buffy's eventual third death (hopefully many year from now!!)
will cause the anomaly to grow even worse, since again the powers
will want to call another Slayer and won't be able to. So at the
moment, the forces are weak because two active Slayers exist,
and even more than that is...
(c) The mindset of the current Slayers themselves. Buffy has been
first depressed, then disconnected from everything ever since
returning from heaven. Meanwhile, the other Slayer is in jail,
effectively out of commission. Beyond that, the other Slayer used
to be evil and might be easily swayed. This is a perfect time
to strike. Before, there were 2 relatively happy Slayers out and
about. Now, at this point in time, both living Slayers weren't
as in the game as they used to be. That's why the First struck
now. It believes it can easily manipulate the situation to its
advantage.
Rob
[> [> [> So do you
think the FE was making a defensive move or an offensive move.
(no puns intended) -- WickedBuffy, 13:58:19 05/23/03 Fri
[> [> [> [> Offensive,
seizing the opportunity. -- Rob, 15:01:55 05/23/03 Fri
[> [> [> [> [>
Or both in a way, offensive BEFORE it had to be defensive.
-- Rob, 15:03:29 05/23/03 Fri
[> [> [> The flabotanum....?
-- Sofdog, 16:00:55 05/23/03 Fri
What is this, how does it work and when was it mentioned in the
show?
[> [> [> [> Re:
The flabotanum....? -- mj, 16:06:36 05/23/03 Fri
From the DVD commentary - it's the term David Greenwalt came up
with for a magical whatchamacallit doohickie that solves some
problem in Buffyverse. I can't remember which DVD commentary but
that is the jist of what the term means.
[> [> [> [> Flabotanum....?
Think 'modulate' in Star Trek (TOS) -- Fred the obvious pseudonym,
20:18:59 05/23/03 Fri
It's the all purpose word that explains everything, because no
one understands it.
[> [> [> [> [>
why do I keep misreading it as 'flat bottom'? -- WickedBuffy,
21:34:07 05/23/03 Fri
[> [> maybe... --
anom, 16:08:15 05/23/03 Fri
...the original idea was to kill Buffy as soon as possible after
the calling of a 2nd Slayer--because that would put things back
on track. Since Buffy's death wouldn't call another Slayer, once
she died, the situation would be back to "normal." The
sooner this happened, the less chance one of the Slayers would
realize the wider implications of the fact there could be more
than 1 Slayer at a time. So the FE tried to prevent this by influencing
Angel to kill Buffy. But it didn't work. So it had to try another
approach, & it took more time to make the arrangements.
Hmm...this would mean the whole "done w/the mortal coil"
was a smokescreen, esp. since it turns out the FE wanted to become
corporeal! Unless it just meant that to apply to us, not it....
Anyway, now we can see why it wanted Willow out of the way.
Post 'Chosen'
Greater Buffyverse Questions -- cjc36, 10:18:28 05/23/03
Fri
This 'controversy' over Annika Sorenstam playing in the PGA got
me thinking about the Buffyverse after "Chosen," namely
the sudden, real empowering of possibly thousands of young women
throughout the world, and how the media and governments would
react to such a change. Remember: a Slayer isn't just as strong
as the strongest man; a Slayer is essentially a superhero. (10X
human? 15X? Never been quantified, but lets just say strong enough
to throw grown men-sized vampires many yards away.)
What would the reaction be? How would the media monster that is
cable news cover this sudden and seemingly random empowerment?
Apocalyptically? Would there be a government reaction like shown
in the new X-Men 2 movie, with violence and guns, or an Initiative
type covert lab thing? How would the less-enlightened men in the
world react when it is demonstrated on some reality show that,
yes, this young woman can peel open a car with her bare hands?
Would some of the young women - watcherless and heading for trouble
- sell out to the highest bidder, with crime lords and intelligence
agencies bidding in nooks and crannies for their very own Slayer
fixer?
Slayer sports teams? Slayer special ops? Slayer-class competition
in the Olympics?
It makes my head hurt thinking of it all..... Thanks, Joss. More
questions than answers. At least Angel is in that 'verse. Maybe
they'll cover some of this.
[> SPOILERS for 7.22 'Chosen'
above -- cjc36, 10:24:30 05/23/03 Fri
[> Look what Fray did (spoilers
for Fray) -- mamcu, 11:35:34 05/23/03 Fri
She was out doing break-and-enters for pay, working for a fish
thing!
But that does raise others serious questions: how come the world
is in such a mess in 200 years if we've had all those great strong
women around to set things right? And why is Fray the only one
in her time?
[> [> According to Fray
-- Dochawk, 13:50:40 05/23/03 Fri
There were no more demons, so there were no slayers activated.
And Willow's spell only gave the powers to living Potentials,
not future ones. This ending fit Fray perfectly. With all these
slayers no doubt there will be no place for demons to hide.
[> [> Good point.
-- yez, 14:56:12 05/23/03 Fri
Pretty ironic if, in the Buffyverse, it's the humans that send
Earth to hell in that handbasket, not the demons.
On the other hand, I'm trying to remember if there's anything
in Fray that specifically says that the earth is a mess... Is
there? Or is it like an extreme "urban decay" situation?
I mean, there's a lot of pretty fancy technological stuff, so
maybe it's just that the divide between the Haves and Have-nots
has gotten really bad.
Also Buffy has always drawn a pretty strict line between slaying
demons and policing regular human crooks who aren't trying to
kill her or her friends.
yez
[> [> [> But ...
-- Liz, 20:54:30 05/23/03 Fri
>>Also Buffy has always drawn a pretty strict line between
slaying demons and policing regular human crooks who aren't trying
to kill her or her friends.<<
Is what Buffy says going to matter to someone on the other side
of the planet who's probably never heard of her?
- Liz
[> [> [> That would
qualify as a mess -- mamcu, 15:38:30 05/24/03 Sat
maybe it's just that the divide between the Haves and Have-nots
has gotten really bad.
At least it's looking pretty bad here and now, with that going
on.
I'm not assuming you think it's ok--but for any who do, take a
look at Leguin's "The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas."
[> Interesting thing to
imagine. (spoilers thru Chosen and for Fray) -- yez, 14:47:10
05/23/03 Fri
I imagine it would put the supernatural right in everyone's face.
An X-Men-like mutant vs. non-mutant situation would be likely,
I imagine.
Was I the only one, or did anyone else find themselves thinking
that the plan was a little... irresponsible?
First of all, despite all Buffy's talk about being able to choose,
all those other potential slayers would now have this gift which
could very well be a burden -- the burden of being different and
the fear and isolation that often brings, the responsibility for
using your strength wisely and for the betterment of the community,
etc.
I thought that because of the "choice speech," Willow's
spell was only going to affect the SITs who chose to fight with
Buffy, so I was a little confused when it appeared that all the
potentials were activated -- without any choice.
Also, what about all these superhuman people who would be suddenly
given this gift without any kind of training, mentoring, etc.?
Or the ones who, like the girl who appears to be standing up to
a batterer, get pissed off and accidentally kill someone since
they don't know their own strength yet?
But I guess this is where suspension of disbelief and all that
is supposed to kick in...
Also, per Fray, every Slayer is supposed to have some kind of
inherited memory that comes to them through their dreams which
gives them a sense of their "heritage" -- I guess like
we'd see with Buffy when she had dreams/visions of the first slayer,
etc.
yez
[> [> But what exactly
was the choice Buffy offered the Potentials? (spoilers thru Chosen
and for Fray) -- RadiusRS, 08:06:46 05/24/03 Sat
We never actually saw the part of the speech where Buffy described
the choice to them. But to me it was very clear: Buffy was saying
Faith and I are already like this, and it's no guarantee that
mistakes will not be made, but it has made us better people. She
was asking the Potentials, who were all living in that transitional
period between girl and Slayer and who understood the distinction
better than anyone in the world, whether they would be willing
to make that choice for all the other Potentials out there. Buffy
was asking them in they were willing to sacrifice for other girls
what they had already lost (a sense of normalcy, a sense of fitting
in with the world, the choice NOT to fight, etc.) despite their
recent experiences as Potentials. She was also telling them to
chose whether to bestow that power on other girls, knowing that
some of them would die or might abuse their power. Buffy and Faith
already have this power, so they are inelligible to make a choice
here, they must leave it in the hands of the Potentials who have
not yet lived through those choices. Buffy is showing them that,
if they think the power is worth taking, there are consequences
to those actions to both the world, themselves, and others. Buffy
has left the Potentials to ponder the future of their line and
risk everything for the world. I think it is they who decide to
go with Buffy's plan, having weighed the pro and cons of what
mass Activation might do, and realizing, with Buffy and Faith
as examples, that it's a risk worth taking. Also, the fact that
there are many Slayers now means that there is an existing sisterhood
for the girls with this power. If Buffy and Faith could make it
through without this sisterhood, can you imagine what a slayer
who DOES have this support net would be capable of? I think that
was why the spell had to be cast when Buffy, Faith, and the Potentials
were all in the Hellmouth with the Scythe above it. They also
opened the seal with their blood (and as far as I could tell,
Spike didn't contribute though I may be wrong). Now previously
in the season, the seal was open by a traitorous murder consecrated
to the First. With the help of Spike's blood, it went into work
overtime, making everything that had previously happened on Buffy
to happen again but now at the same time. Even after the seal
has been deactivated with Andrew's tears, it's still giving off
such major vibes the cops are going crazy and the townsfolk are
fleeing. I believe that the Hellmouth serves as an antenna as
well as a portal, drawing evil AND good towards it. Since the
Seal was opened by the willing sacrifice of Buffy, Faith, and
the Potentials, it has been opened for the purpose of good (and
no Ubervamps come out because the act wasn't consecrated to the
First Evil). So the Slayers and the Potentials go down into the
Hellmouth. Using the sCYTHE as a focusing device, Willow begins
to tap into the Slayer power inside Buffy and Faith and amplifying
it as much as she could. As the power spreads out from Buffy and
Faith, the girls become activated. The energy then goes through
the Seal and the Hellmouth and begins to be transmitted to the
world (remember that Willow and Kennedy are in Principal Wood's
office directly over the Hellmouth). The strain and magnitude
of what Willow is doing is enormous, and only through Kennedy
is she able to be tethered to the world and not lose control.
The experience seems to purify Willow, perhaps cleanse her of
the evil she commited as Dark Willow (the scrubbing bubbles Angel
was talking about?). Kennedy is also the first Potential outside
the Hellmouth to be Activated, and the one who brings the Scythe
into play during the final battle. Also, it is some time AFTER
this act that Spike's amulet begins getting active. Perhaps the
Magic to Activate the Potentials was a side effect necessary to
activate the Amulet (we've never really heard all the information
in the W & H file, just some hints). I think it's also relevant
that when the Amulet starts shooting out rays of sunshine, Spike
is knocked back to a position directly beneath the opening of
the Hellmouth, as evidenced when that big beam shoots up through
the floor near where Willow has collapsed. I also think that,
for the first time in History, the Slayer power was shared by
many. I think that despite all that happened, Buffy and Faith
knew that the other "got it" when it came to being a
Slayer. They shared something, which ironically put them at odds,
but also forced them to deal with the negative aspects of themselves
they saw reflected in the other. As the dream Buffy has in her
coma shows, it is her similarities to Faith that make her stronger,
and to a point shows that Slayers can be telepathic with each
other. Once Buffy slayed the First Turok-han, it began to become
an easy thing for her now that she had gotten over her initial
fear of it. Also, she had just sliced Caleb in half, and he had
been a more difficult adversary than the Turok-khan, and nearly
as powerful as Glory (who Buffy also bested, though she didn't
actually finally defeat her the way she did Caleb). And she had
the pretty Scythe. I think all that, combined with her big comeback
after being kicked out and the bomb exploding gave the Potentials
the confidence in Buffy AND the Scoobies that the Ubervamps weren't
really that Uber after all, so they were more willing to fight
them AND therefore more able to attack their weaknesses since
most of that fear was gone. Remember, Achilles was invulnerable
except for one bitty spot, and all it took was one well shot poisoned
arrow to finish him off. So psychologically, the Ubervamps weren't
all that. Also, Faith (who previously warmed up fighting the Beast
and Angelus) and all the Potentials (who have had their share
of battles with the Vineyard and the Armory battles) have gained
some confidence in themselves, and once Buffy took "scary
preacher man" out of the picture, who the girls admitted
they were more scared of, the Ubervamps had all lost their fear
factor and were really just strong but stupid beasties. Also factor
in that now that the Slayer power was active in all these girls,
and they were no longer alone in much the way Holden explained
that vamps felt upon their awakening. Now that all these Potentials-turned-Slayers
were connected to the Slayer line and all the Slayers that came
before them, it's logical to assume that a lot of the fighting
experience and willpower of the generations of Slayers were with
them now. Also, the fact that all the living Slayers were now
connected to Buffy and Faith, two of the more experienced Slayers
in human history, means that they might have been able to receive
some sort of telepathic message from them with the tools to defeating
the Ubervamps embedded much in the same way that Faith showed
Buffy the Mayor's weakness in a dream at the end of Season 3.
Also, remember that the Potentials were truly only normal humans
when they began this battle, and that fact must count for something
when analyzing the source of their strength, especially as a bunch
of essentially human girls defeated a whole bunch of Bringers
pretty easily. Also, one thing that we saw on the faces of the
Girls who were Awakened was an awareness of what happened to them
(the baseball girls sly smile, the girl stopping her abuser before
she's even gotten up), which seems to indicate that they know
what they are and have a connection to each other and the source
of their power. So I have absolutely no problem with the Potentials
being able to slay Ubervamps. I wonder if this Mass activation
will have any negative effects and consequences though....
The 'Amends'
Factor -- Nino,
12:34:27 05/23/03 Fri
In "Amends" the First was messin with Angel and Buffy
and no one really new why...hmmm.....The First wanted Angel to
kill Buffy, that is why Angel was brought back in the first place....the
First did it....
When Angel decided he couldn't bare to kill Buffy he told the
First he would kill himself. The First as Jenny said, "No,
you can't, that's not the plan....but it'll do." Having Angel
dead was good perhaps, becasue the First new about the power of
the amulet, that a vampire with a soul must use it?
In season 7, the First used Spike in the same way, trying to have
kim kill Buffy and then trying to get the Scoobs to turn on Spike
(ie, telling Andrew it wasn't "time for Spike yet" to
make him look dangerous and appearing as Nikki to Robin, to provoke
him to kill Spike).
I guess what I am trying to get at (I am not as eloquent as most
of the posters) is that the plot of "Amends" seems to
fit well with the season 7 plans of the First (as best as we know
them), and some people's grumblings that "Amends" connections
were not well made need only dig a little deeper and fill in the
holes...Joss didn't spoon feed this one the way he did Glory's
plans or the Mayor's...we have to think about it...which makes
perfect sense seeing as how the source of all evil wouldn't exactly
make its plans known to anyone...it wouldn't need to.
We know that Beljoxa's Eye talked of the slayer line being "irrevocably
altered" and "vulnerable"...it has been since season
2...The First acted relatively quickly, (considering it is eternal)
and by season 3 had made the first strike by bringing Angel back
to kill Buffy...had Buffy been killed, the First would have no
problems, because no one would be worrying about the double slayer
issue, no imbalance would be made...it doesn't go according to
plan...when Buffy is brought back in season 6, perhaps we are
to assume the First was mounting its forces...its not unreasonable
to assume a year of planning was taken.
All in all, I feel "Amends" was the perfect bit of foreshadowing
of things to come...I especially liked that the First was trying
to obtain the scythe, which ultimately allowed Buffy to win...it
seems fairly clear that the First was trying to extinguish the
Slayer line because it could become a threat if the scythe was
found...Cuz one girl...not so threatening...
PS) One small "Chosen" gripe...if Buffy's plan was to
kill the Turak-Hon (which would have been impossible) what would
have happened had Spike's amulet been a dud? More importantly,
why didnt they lead the vamps to sunlight instead of trying to
fight them in the dark...they seemed more then willing to leave
the hellmouth...and perhaps most importantly, why was it so easy
to kill them when one kicked the crap out of Buffy in BOTN? A
little explanation like, they were not at full power for some
reason would have been nice...maybe because they hadnt fed in
so long, they weren't as strong..i dunno, im just rambling...
[> Oops...Spoilers thru
'Chosen' above...! -- Nino, 12:35:53 05/23/03 Fri
[> Re: The 'Amends' Factor
-- Jenny's Love, 13:13:08 05/23/03 Fri
First of all, I agree about Beljoxa's Eye's line about the Chosen
line having only recently been altered as referring to Buffy's
first death and the calling of Kendra. Most of what I read assumed
that it was B's 2nd resurrection that the Eye spoke of, however,
the Slayer line was altered initally by B's first death. When
you're an anceint, omnipresent Evil, something that happned in
1997 would seem in 2002 as having happened 2 minutes ago.
As for the Tuok Han, I definitely sat up and took notice in 'End
of Days' when the three Turok Han the Potentials faced were so
unthreatening compared to the first one we saw, it was laughable.
In BOTN, the Turok Han was pretty much unstoppable, not the least
fazed by Buffy's punches or having steel beams (or whatver it
was) dropped on it, and the shot in which the action is accelerated
as it runs after Buffy and bounces off a wall to come kicking
her was truly one of the best visual moments in the series as
far as I am concerned. Then, last week, they are portrayed not
as purely primal killing machines but as having the strength and
skill of regualr vampires but just scarier looking. The original
we saw would have taken out all the girls in a matter of seconds.
Instead one waits for Kennedy to swing before knocking the weapon
out of her hands. Obviously, the Turok Han was introduced as a
formidable foe, but in the end, if we were to believe that they
could be beaten, they had to be reduced to being no more difficult
to engage in hand-to-hand combat than regular vampires. By the
end, the horror did not lie in the ability of a single one to
nearly kill Buffy as one did, but rather their sheer number. And
of course, we all saw how a visual of an army of hundreds or thousands
changed into a number that 30 or so Slayers could stand a chance
at.
[> [> Re: The 'Amends'
Factor -- Brian, 14:09:07 05/23/03 Fri
If Angel wasn't brought back by Buffy's love ( which is still
my personal belief), then he was brought back by Jasmine as part
of the start of her master plan.
[> [> [> ooh, yeah--i
think you're onto something there, brian! -- anom, 15:33:27
05/23/03 Fri
[> [> [> Re: The 'Amends'
Factor -- Nino, 23:09:41 05/23/03 Fri
In "Amends" the First made it pretty clear that it was
what brought Angel back from the grave...
[> [> [> [> Re:
The 'Amends' Factor -- Brian, 06:06:10 05/24/03 Sat
And the First has been a truthful being?
Plus, why did Angel return to the exact spot where Buffy had placed
her ring on the floor?
[> [> [> [> Re:
The 'Amends' Factor -- Rook, 09:53:11 05/24/03 Sat
And Buffy made it pretty clear that she thought the First was
lying.
"Some great evil takes credit for bringing you nack and you
just buy it?"
There isn't any evidence that the First was really responsible,
nor that it even had the power to do something like this. And
the fact that Buffy's line calling the idea into question were
left in the script means that who or what brought Angel back is
still a very open question.
[> [> [> [> Sorry,
don't buy it -- Nino,
10:06:47 05/24/03 Sat
Sorry, i dont buy it...the First had reason and means to bring
Angel back, and it was never addressed in any other form...since
when did Buffy herself, (especially season 3 Buffy)become an expert
on hell-dimensions and resurrections? One little comment (which
was said so he wouldnt kill himself) doesnt really prove much...I
believe the First brought Angel back because it would have been
TOO big of a plothole if he just popped up out of nowhere, and
"Amends" is the only episode that addresses it...if
someone can think of any other occasion on "Buffy" or
"Angel" where how/why Angel was brought back was addressed
Id be glad to hear it...but I feel that I have to go buy what
Joss has given me...and after waiting for half of season 3 to
find out who brought Angel back, I have to say, I believe it was
the First...
[> [> [> [> [>
Except that... -- Rook, 10:31:13 05/24/03 Sat
The First would have been equally satisfied with Angel's death
as having him kill Buffy.
So...if dead Angel was just as good as Evil Angel, why not leave
him in Hell and out of the way to begin with?
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Re: Except that... -- Nino, 10:46:19 05/24/03
Sat
Touche
[> [> [> [> [>
[> hmm...maybe this fits in w/what brian said -- anom,
22:38:25 05/24/03 Sat
"The First would have been equally satisfied with Angel's
death as having him kill Buffy."
Don't know about "equally"...the line (as I remember
it) is, "That's not the plan [angrily]...but it'll do [slight
smile]."
"It'll do" doesn't sound like it's as good as the original
plan. But it still would've taken out a warrior for the other
side. If that's the case, the FE's attempt to use Angel against
Buffy was opportunistic--piggybacked on his return, which was
brought about by Jasmine as part of the plan to bring her to earth.
That would mean the snowstorm was a way to ensure that Angel stuck
around so her plan could be successful.
[> [> Stongest of the
Uber-Vamps? -- Laura, 16:21:30 05/23/03 Fri
Here's a guess about explanation about the Turok Hans. The First
could only open the seal so often, so perhaps when it does it
picks the strongest members of the Uber-Vamps. Keep in mind some
vamps are easy (relatively) to kill while others aren't.
Joss on 'Chosen'
and AtS: S5 ('Chosen' spoilers, invisotexted AtS spoilers)
-- Rob, 11:50:15 05/23/03 Fri
I love reading Joss interviews, and there are some insights, so
I thought you guys might find this interesting. On the downside,
the questions aren't that intelligent, since a lot of them make
it seem like the interviewer just wasn't paying close enough attention
during the final ep! But either way, without further ado...
Buffy Postmortem: Is Spike Dead?
by Michael Ausiello
As far as series finales go, Buffy the Vampire Slayer's was a
doozy. We laughed, we cried, we hurled large objects at the TV
in utter despair. But darnit if the show's creator, Joss Whedon,
didn't leave us wanting more... closure, that is. For example,
why of all the Scoobies did Anya (Emma Caulfield) have to die?
And what's the deal with Spike (James Marsters), who bit the dust
just days after making a date with Angel this fall? For answers
to those questions and more, read on...
[INVISO-TEXTED AtS S5 SPOILERS:]
TV Guide Online:
I have a bone to pick with you: When last we spoke, you claimed
that "no decision" had been made about bringing Spike
over to Angel next season. Then, days later, the WB announced
that, well, Spike would be making his way to Angel next season.
Why did you lie to me, man?
Joss Whedon: It wasn't until the last minute that it was
actually decided that he was going to be a regular on the show.
When I spoke to you, a) it was true that we didn't know his status,
and b) he was about to die on Buffy, so the less about him being
on Angel in the press beforehand, the better.
TVGO: Fair enough. But couldn't the WB hold off on announcing
it?
Whedon: There was no f---ing way. They were very excited
about James. They have a shiny blond thing to show people, and
they're gonna do it.
TVGO: So, how do you plan to resurrect Spike?
Whedon: That's a conversation I'm going to be having with
the Angel writers very soon.
TVGO: There's always Shanshu (the ancient prophecy introduced
during Angel's first season that says once a soulful vampire fulfills
his destiny, he becomes human).
Whedon: It's not quite that simple, although a lot of people
have been making reference to that. But that's an interpretation,
and ultimately could become the interpretation if we decide to
go that way. I have some other ideas. The trick is how to bring
him back without losing the integrity of what he did... the sacrifice.
If it's just, "Hey, I'm back!" then that whole moment
at the end of Buffy is kind of lame now. Like Buffy returning
from the dead, it's going to be something that we're going to
have to earn and play the ramifications of, possibly without making
it so depressing.
TVGO: Will you pair him with a new special someone?
Whedon: I'm still trying to figure out how to bring him
back to life. I don't think he's the kind of guy that would be
like, "Well, that was a fun time with Buffy... " I don't
think he feels a sense of resolve or resolution about the relationship.
I think he feels that he was ready to sacrifice himself for her,
and it was a beautiful thing, but... it wasn't like he's cured
of loving Buffy any more than Angel is.
TVGO: Now that Buffy is free to do whatever she
likes, how will you explain why she doesn't make a beeline for
Angel?
Whedon: Well, I think I did in the episode. She said very
specifically she doesn't want to go and find a boyfriend. She
wants to go and find herself - spend some time becoming a grown-up
and finding out who she is, and then she can stop to find out
who fits with that. That was the point of the whole cookie dough
speech. Her internal search isn't for a boyfriend, it's for herself.
And then if true love fits into that, that would be the best thing
ever. But if she instantly went off and attached herself to Angel,
she'd be throwing away everything she'd just been given, which
is her freedom. It would be the last thing she would do. Well,
not the last thing. She wouldn't do it until sweeps.
TVGO: November sweeps?
Whedon: I don't know if necessarily it will be November,
but she has stated time and again that she's perfectly willing
to come on and make an appearance, assuming schedules work out.
Nothing's definite, but it's as sure a shot as one could hope
for.
TVGO: Why was Anya marked for death?
Whedon: I wanted to kill somebody, and I wanted to do it
brutally and suddenly and never really pay it off. I wanted a
death that was a real middle-of-the-battle death - the opposite
of the Spike death, [which was] perfect, noble. And Emma had made
it clear that she really was not interested in coming back. I
think things with Fox weren't great and she felt ill-used - not
by the show. She had a good time making the show, I think. But
she was ready to move on. But it was tough [killing her off].
The last shot before we wrapped her was that shot where she gets
sliced. And it's very weird to play your death and go, "Okay,
I'm done."
TVGO: No one seemed to be too broken up about it.
Whedon: I had a lot to wrap up, so I let Xander (Nicholas
Brendon) have a moment of closure about her, just enough to get
him to the point where he could rejoin the group for a moment
of, well, "We won." You have to get yourself to a good
place if you want the show to go out on an uplifting moment, which
I did. So I used shorthand.
TVGO: Had you known that Eliza Dushku was going to pass
on the spinoff, would you have killed off Faith?
Whedon: No, I doubt it. There's a certain element where
the loss becomes unacceptable for a happy ending, and the idea
that she's been the primary Slayer behind Buffy, it felt like
she should be in that mix.
TVGO: Given Eliza's decision, do you regret not making
Dawn (Michelle Trachtenberg) a Slayer?
Whedon: No, I don't think Dawn was meant to be a Slayer
- both mythologically and emotionally. Dawn plays a different
part than that. I don't think we necessarily got to explore all
the aspects of Dawn's character that I would have liked to have,
because she kind of got swept up in the larger story. But being
a Slayer was never one of them. That's not to say you couldn't
build a spinoff around Michelle - she's an interesting actress,
and the same goes for a lot of the players. But I wouldn't just
necessarily take someone and make them a Slayer. I don't think
that would really fly.
TVGO: Today is the first day of life after Buffy. How are
you holding up?
Whedon: I'm doing just fine, because it's like Day 13 of
trying to get my 5-month-old to sleep, so I just go from one problem
to the next. (Pauses) Your sense of closure never comes when you
think it's going to. It'll happen two weeks from Monday. I'll
suddenly go, "Good Lord. My entire life has changed."
[> Ugh! Apologies. Don't
read the above one if you don't want to read spoilers. Read this
post: -- Rob, 11:52:21 05/23/03 Fri
I love reading Joss interviews, and there are some insights, so
I thought you guys might find this interesting. On the downside,
the questions aren't that intelligent, since a lot of them make
it seem like the interviewer just wasn't paying close enough attention
during the final ep! But either way, without further ado...
Buffy Postmortem
by Michael Ausiello
As far as series finales go, Buffy the Vampire Slayer's was a
doozy. We laughed, we cried, we hurled large objects at the TV
in utter despair. But darnit if the show's creator, Joss Whedon,
didn't leave us wanting more... closure, that is. For example,
why of all the Scoobies did Anya (Emma Caulfield) have to die?
[INVISO-TEXTED AtS S5 SPOILERS:]
And what's the deal with Spike (James Marsters),
who bit the dust just days after making a date with Angel this
fall? For answers to those questions and more, read on...
TV Guide Online: I have a bone to pick with you: When last
we spoke, you claimed that "no decision" had been made
about bringing Spike over to Angel next season. Then, days later,
the WB announced that, well, Spike would be making his way to
Angel next season. Why did you lie to me, man?
Joss Whedon: It wasn't until the last minute that it was
actually decided that he was going to be a regular on the show.
When I spoke to you, a) it was true that we didn't know his status,
and b) he was about to die on Buffy, so the less about him being
on Angel in the press beforehand, the better.
TVGO: Fair enough. But couldn't the WB hold off on announcing
it?
Whedon: There was no f---ing way. They were very excited
about James. They have a shiny blond thing to show people, and
they're gonna do it.
TVGO: So, how do you plan to resurrect Spike?
Whedon: That's a conversation I'm going to be having with
the Angel writers very soon.
TVGO: There's always Shanshu (the ancient prophecy introduced
during Angel's first season that says once a soulful vampire fulfills
his destiny, he becomes human).
Whedon: It's not quite that simple, although a lot of people
have been making reference to that. But that's an interpretation,
and ultimately could become the interpretation if we decide to
go that way. I have some other ideas. The trick is how to bring
him back without losing the integrity of what he did... the sacrifice.
If it's just, "Hey, I'm back!" then that whole moment
at the end of Buffy is kind of lame now. Like Buffy returning
from the dead, it's going to be something that we're going to
have to earn and play the ramifications of, possibly without making
it so depressing.
TVGO: Will you pair him with a new special someone?
Whedon: I'm still trying to figure out how to bring him
back to life. I don't think he's the kind of guy that would be
like, "Well, that was a fun time with Buffy... " I don't
think he feels a sense of resolve or resolution about the relationship.
I think he feels that he was ready to sacrifice himself for her,
and it was a beautiful thing, but... it wasn't like he's cured
of loving Buffy any more than Angel is.
TVGO: Now that Buffy is free to do whatever she
likes, how will you explain why she doesn't make a beeline for
Angel?
Whedon: Well, I think I did in the episode. She said very
specifically she doesn't want to go and find a boyfriend. She
wants to go and find herself - spend some time becoming a grown-up
and finding out who she is, and then she can stop to find out
who fits with that. That was the point of the whole cookie dough
speech. Her internal search isn't for a boyfriend, it's for herself.
And then if true love fits into that, that would be the best thing
ever. But if she instantly went off and attached herself to Angel,
she'd be throwing away everything she'd just been given, which
is her freedom. It would be the last thing she would do. Well,
not the last thing. She wouldn't do it until sweeps.
TVGO: November sweeps?
Whedon: I don't know if necessarily it will be November,
but she has stated time and again that she's perfectly willing
to come on and make an appearance, assuming schedules work out.
Nothing's definite, but it's as sure a shot as one could hope
for.
TVGO: Why was Anya marked for death?
Whedon: I wanted to kill somebody, and I wanted to do it
brutally and suddenly and never really pay it off. I wanted a
death that was a real middle-of-the-battle death - the opposite
of the Spike death, [which was] perfect, noble. And Emma had made
it clear that she really was not interested in coming back. I
think things with Fox weren't great and she felt ill-used - not
by the show. She had a good time making the show, I think. But
she was ready to move on. But it was tough [killing her off].
The last shot before we wrapped her was that shot where she gets
sliced. And it's very weird to play your death and go, "Okay,
I'm done."
TVGO: No one seemed to be too broken up about it.
Whedon: I had a lot to wrap up, so I let Xander (Nicholas
Brendon) have a moment of closure about her, just enough to get
him to the point where he could rejoin the group for a moment
of, well, "We won." You have to get yourself to a good
place if you want the show to go out on an uplifting moment, which
I did. So I used shorthand.
TVGO: Had you known that Eliza Dushku was going to pass
on the spinoff, would you have killed off Faith?
Whedon: No, I doubt it. There's a certain element where
the loss becomes unacceptable for a happy ending, and the idea
that she's been the primary Slayer behind Buffy, it felt like
she should be in that mix.
TVGO: Given Eliza's decision, do you regret not making
Dawn (Michelle Trachtenberg) a Slayer?
Whedon: No, I don't think Dawn was meant to be a Slayer
- both mythologically and emotionally. Dawn plays a different
part than that. I don't think we necessarily got to explore all
the aspects of Dawn's character that I would have liked to have,
because she kind of got swept up in the larger story. But being
a Slayer was never one of them. That's not to say you couldn't
build a spinoff around Michelle - she's an interesting actress,
and the same goes for a lot of the players. But I wouldn't just
necessarily take someone and make them a Slayer. I don't think
that would really fly.
TVGO: Today is the first day of life after Buffy. How are
you holding up?
Whedon: I'm doing just fine, because it's like Day 13 of
trying to get my 5-month-old to sleep, so I just go from one problem
to the next. (Pauses) Your sense of closure never comes when you
think it's going to. It'll happen two weeks from Monday. I'll
suddenly go, "Good Lord. My entire life has changed."
[> Very cool, thanks for
posting. (spoilers thru Chosen) -- yez, 14:28:34 05/23/03
Fri
The "shorthand" for marking Anya's passing didn't really
work for me. She somehow seemed only slightly less disposable
than the SITs, by the way no one but Xander and Andrew are shown
to notice, and even Xander doesn't seem that upset about it.
And Spike's death hardly registered with me -- and he's one of
my favorite characters. There had just been so much talk and hype
about JM signing with Angel that when he burned up, I was like,
"What just happened there? Didn't they say he was coming
on Angel? Whatever... I can't believe Anya's dead and nobody really
cares!"
But yeah, he did have plenty to wrap up.
yez
[> [> plenty to wrap
up -- tam, 21:37:26 05/23/03 Fri
there was plenty to wrap up -- so why did we get gypped with only
an hour finale -- why not 2 hours like last year?
Best lines
of the season - a little help here -- ponygirl, 12:51:10
05/23/03 Fri
The Succubus Club is taking votes for their Golden Fang Awards
- the ballot is here: http://www.thesuccubusclub.com/2003GFballot.html
Most of the categories are no-brainers - best hair? best style?
Lilah all the way! But I'm blanking on ideas for favourite one-liners
of the year for both shows. All I know is it ain't gonna be "there's
a party in my eye socket." What's everybody's fave?
[> Re: Best lines of the
season - a little help here -- lunasea, 13:33:51 05/23/03
Fri
"When I want someone to eat...I mean enjoy warm delicious
cookie me"
Joss is the king of all undercutting. It was severly missed this
season. AtS still did it and it is hard to choose just one.
[> Re: Best lines of the
season - a little help here -- Plin, 13:39:28 05/23/03
Fri
I had a hard time choosing, actually. These are the ones that
came to mind, although I know I'm leaving out a bunch:
"I'm here to kill you, Buffy, not to judge you." (Holden,
in Conversations With Dead People)
"It's a Bidet of Evil." (Buffy, in First Date)
"Why can't you just masturbate like the rest of us?"
(Anya, in Storyteller)
"Hide your babies and your beadwork!" (Villager, in
Selfless)
"In my plan, we are beltless." (Andrew, in Storyteller)
I ended up going with the babies and beadwork quote, but that's
just the one that struck my fancy at the moment. I loved all of
these.
[> 'That was Nifty'
-- Dochawk, 13:45:50 05/23/03 Fri
Because it was the essence of Willow in three words. Pretty remarkable
I think to do that. Buffy's cookie line was pretty good, as well
as "scythe matters" And that was just the last two episodes
(recency effect ya know)
[> [> Willow's hair,
was Re: 'That was Nifty' -- skeeve, 13:59:14 05/23/03 Fri
Please note that Willow did not get dark roots.
[> 'Perhaps the whole point
of this experiment is hair!' -- pellenaka. I've got nothing.,
13:52:46 05/23/03 Fri
[> 'I used to be a famous
watcher...' -- dub ;o), 13:57:16 05/23/03 Fri
now I'm a dwarf with the mystical strength of a doily."
or
"Cuppa tea, cuppa tea, almost got shagged, cuppa tea."
And I love
"It's a bidet of evil."
And I can't forget (from OMWF)
"I was able to see the bodies while the police were busy
taking witness arias."
;o)
[> [> Oh! You meant *this*
season!! Sorry. -- dub ;o), 16:15:03 05/23/03 Fri
[> 'In the end, we all are
who we are, no matter how much we may appear to have changed.'
-- Sophist, 14:05:51 05/23/03 Fri
[> 'reality just shows up
sometimes, doesn't it?' -- anom, 14:34:11 05/23/03 Fri
Said by Holden Webster in Conversations with Dead People, on realizing
in the middle of catching up on old times w/Buffy that they're
going to have to fight to the death.
[> 'Good thing we're hot
chicks with super powers.' -- tomfool, 14:55:17 05/23/03
Fri
[> 'Are you ready to be
strong?' -- Dyna, 15:12:55 05/23/03 Fri
[> [> Yes! 'Are you ready
to be strong?' gets me weepy every time. -- Dariel, 12:58:04
05/24/03 Sat
[> 'Ahh...Captain Archer.'
::Andrew nods wistfully:: -- Sofdog, 15:50:44 05/23/03
Fri
[> Holden: 'Buffy, I'm here
to kill you, not to judge you.' -- Calvin, 22:32:27 05/23/03
Fri
[> [> I think that is
my favourite -- ponygirl, 09:04:49 05/24/03 Sat
And for some bizarre reason my favourite line from AtS this year
is "You is talky meat - don't make me come down there."
A perfect mix of the weird and the concise.
[> [> [> 'Talky-meat'...
-- Calvin, 13:25:29 05/24/03 Sat
I've probably used that phrase a dozen times since that episode.
I have no idea why, but I really think that it is both funny and
disturbing. Which is always of the good.
Calvin
[> 'You're not special,
You're Extraordinary' (Ok so I have two) -- Dochawk, 08:46:13
05/24/03 Sat
[> 'This funnel cake is
kicking my ass!' -- Rob, 09:57:17 05/24/03 Sat
[> 'You've got Angel breath!'
('Chosen' spoilers) -- HonorH, 11:14:14 05/24/03 Sat
Actually, the entire Dawson's Creek idiocy between Angel and Spike
contains some of my favorite lines. Angel pouting about Spike,
Spike pouting about Angel, Buffy's Spike/Angel oil-wrestling fantasy,
and, of course, Spike's drawing of Angel all had me supine in
the aisles. Buffy was most definitely not impressed.
[> [> My favorite line
from the ep is 'Party in my eye socket, and everybody's invited!'
-- Rob, 12:21:27 05/24/03 Sat
[> [> [> Think I prefer,
'Sometimes I just shouldn't use words.' -- HonorH, 12:40:24
05/24/03 Sat
Ah, Rob, you put the cream in my coffee, you know that?
[> [> [> [> And
you're the chocolate sauce on my sundae. ;o) -- Rob, 17:02:57
05/24/03 Sat
[> [> [> [> [>
You're the Weetabix in my blood! -- HonorH, 20:46:38
05/24/03 Sat
[> 'I'm drowning in footwear.'
-- Rowena, footwear fanatic and Manolo Blahnik groupie, 14:37:52
05/24/03 Sat
[> 'I'm cookie dough' is
right up there right now. -- deeva, 21:55:31 05/24/03 Sat
[> Re: 'Honey you're home'
-- sdev, 00:39:37 05/25/03 Sun
[> 'Anchovees, anchovees
you´re so delicious! -- grifter, 05:03:54 05/25/03
Sun
I love you more, then all the other fishes!"
This is Not
a Democracy (Spoilers to 'Empty Spaces/Shiny Happy', no further)
-- KdS, 13:10:22 05/23/03 Fri
Firstly, I don't know if any unspoiled Sky viewers are still here,
or if they're cutting themselves off for the next month, but please
be very careful about marking spoilers for subsequent episodes
in responses.
This was another week with some interesting connections between
BtVS and AtS. It's interesting that we see the inevitable blow-up
against Buffy's Eric von Stroheim mode at the same time as Jasmine's
effortless dictatorship over LA. And Jasmine's clearly evil nature
seems to confirm the hope I've had this season that Buffy's approach
would be shown to be the wrong one. It also seems interesting
that Caleb and Jasmine seem to be so diametrically opposed: in
their sex, in their apparent racial origin, and in their manners.
All that seems to unite them is their evil, but Caleb is into
destruction while Jasmine is into control. (Retraction from last
week. I suggested that Caleb might be a debunked Angelus. yab
helpfully pointed out that while Caleb is into punishing the sinful,
Angelus is into persecuting the innocent - he quite likes "dirty
girls".)
Another thing I was fortunately wrong about was the portrayal
of Faith in BtVS this year. She isn't being held up as the Bad
Girl again, she really is being portrayed as having subtly grown
as a person this week - shielding Buffy from an over-inquisitive
Dawn, settling down alone to research Caleb, deciding that Amanda
had had enough to drink, making an obvious effort not to inflict
lethal damage on the possessed police, and trying to hold back
in the big row. The only oddity is the way she's suddenly taken
up smoking, which she never did in BtVS before, or AtS this year.
Maybe it's another slight unsimplification by ME, suggesting that
what was once an infallible sign of evil isn't any more. As well
as Faith, Andrew gets another understated piece of personal growth
this ep, with his gentle response to the Gilroy priest's survivor
guilt. I don't think we've ever seen anything like that from him
before.
After the debate on the board, I was awaiting the Big Scooby Row
with interest, and was surprised by how sympathetically portrayed
most of the characters were. (OK, Giles was as cold as a dead
haddock, and Anya was purely and simply unfair and wrong in her
"You were lucky" speech, but that fits their joint general
butchery as characters in the second half of this season.) The
total non sequitur for me came with Dawn's tossing Buffy out of
the house - it might have been, as yab suggested, a move to give
everyone a chance to cool down before things got really bloody,
but MT's delivery seemed too venomous for that. If we were meant
to see PossiblyEvil!Joyce's warning as festering to that degree,
we should have seen hints of it before.
Clem eats kittens! Clem eats kittens! Wonder if it's a slight
tweak at some people's tendency to over-idealise Spike. Personally,
I'm more annoyed by the fact that he drives a New Beetle, which
is a contemptible, impractical posemobile and an insult to the
genuinely utilitarian original.
After a generally positive review, I have to make clear how horrible,
forced and unfunny I thought Anya and Andrew's lecture to the
Potentials at the beginning was. Anya seems to have regressed
straight back to S4 with all her "I love sex" talk,
and Andrew has never been shown as stupid in the way he
would have to be to write down Anya's sexual remarks on the flipboard.
On AtS - good episode, but I have very little to say about it
last night or now. I think the problem is how utterly obvious
and predictable it was in terms of theme and plot. (OK, Angels'
worries about happiness and Connor's chat with Jasmine were both
affecting, and the head bowling was the best gross-out for a while.)
From the first two minutes, I could tell that Jasmine would enthrall
everyone, that one person would break the conditioning and have
everyone else turn on them, etc etc etc. Two things. Firstly,
if they wanted to give it a song title, I think this
one or this
one would have been more appropriate. Secondly, I finally
remembered what Jasmine's original form last week reminded me
of, a Hans Moravec "bush robot". (Moravec, somewhere
on the fringes between accepted science and SF, conceived the
idea of a "bush robot", a fractal like AI device whose
branches would continuously divide until eventually they formed
nanoscalar limbs, capable of manipulating atoms and molecules
around them for near-miraculous results.)
Looking forward to how they "get out of that" in both
series next week.
[> About the smoking
-- Finn Mac Cool, 13:59:25 05/23/03 Fri
Faith mentions to Wood that she had gotten used to the prison
habit of trading for things with cigarettes. As such, taking up
the habit seems quite likely. Yes, we didn't see it on Angel this
year, but she was only in three episodes, spent most of one unconscious
and most of the other two tracking Angelus, not exactly a lot
of time for her to light up.
[> [> Surely she's heard
the phrase... -- KdS, 14:05:44 05/23/03 Fri
"Don't get high on your own supply"
[> [> Re: About the smoking
-- Eryn, 15:47:13 05/23/03 Fri
The writers probably have Faith smoking to show that while she
is no longer corrupted and on the wrong side, she hasn't lost
her edge.
Eryn
[> [> [> She might
be trying to lose some of that weight she gained between shows.
-- Cozener Feint, 17:11:52 05/23/03 Fri
[> [> [> [> I sure
hope not. She looks *good*! -- HonorH (the closeted Faith-fancier),
22:02:58 05/23/03 Fri
[> [> [> [> [>
Just saw her tonight on Conan - she looked the best I've ever
seen her. -- WickedBuffy, 22:12:49 05/23/03 Fri
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Re: Just saw her tonight on Conan - she looked the best
I've ever seen her. -- Dead Soul, 23:43:57 05/23/03 Fri
I agree. She looked terrific and the outfit was fabulous!
Dead (and wondering where I can get me a hot pink plaid mini kilt)
Soul
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> ok, I wasn't going to mention the skirt - but -
-- WickedBuffy, 13:21:58 05/24/03 Sat
- wow. I see why they didn't let her dress like that in BtVS.
Everyone else would have looked like cows* next to her!
And she was so fiesty!
*Disclaimer: I have no personal prejudices about the attractiveness
of cows, now do I think they are an inferior animal just because
they are bovine. The ugly cows I am referring to are the specific
ones my uncle had on his farm - who were very intelligent. Intelligent
enough to communicate to anyone who paused to listen that these
cows considered each other ugly and were not at all bothered with
it. In addition, they signed and had notarized an official document
stating that if I needed to elaborate on the beauty of someone
or something else, I was encouraged to use them in the comparision.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> LOLOL! -- Rahael, 15:15:20 05/24/03
Sat
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> see R? I'm still teachable! :> --
WickedBuffy (YAHHHH!! you are still here!!!), 15:47:21 05/24/03
Sat
[> [> I think everybody
smokes in prison -- mamcu, 12:07:35 05/24/03 Sat
I used to teach classes in the prisons here, and I can't remember
a student who didn't smoke.
[> [> [> It may be...
-- CW, 13:04:17 05/24/03 Sat
At least back in the Vietnam era, almost everyone in the US army
smoked because there were literal smoking breaks in the work day.
If you didn't smoke you were expected to keep working. (Second
hand info, but from a source I think was reliable)
Cordelia/Charisma
-- Jenny's Love, 13:41:11 05/23/03 Fri
If Charisma is indeed not returning for season 5, I am thoroughly
steamed. With Buffy gone, Angel will be our most essential link
to the Buffyverse, and we need every link to Buffy we can get,
so that includes Cordelia. Even more, though, I am upset because
(and admittedly we must just wait and see what happens, so I shouldn't
jump to conclusions and I am sure she will likely make guest appearances)
if Charisma is leaving, then she will have ended her official
run on the show as lying comatose for five episodes while Connor
spouts monologues and wires her with explosives. And if she is
not coming back (and again, we must just wait and see), then that
means that she will end her run on the show with us not having
heard the real Cordelia speak since seeing her in the "higher
plane" she was taken to. Since then it's been either amnesia
or Jasmine-possession or coma. AHHH, it's so frustrating. I love
you and miss you Charisma.
[> She aint coming back
-- Dochawk, 13:48:13 05/23/03 Fri
Even for guest appearances. See comments by both Jordan Levin
and Joss (and supposedly there is a Joss interview next week that
goes into even greater detail). There are no plans currently to
bring her back.
[> [> Gasp!! -- Belladonna,
14:50:35 05/23/03 Fri
Do you have a link to those comments? I thought she was going
to be a guest star like ASH was on Buffy. Why doesn't she want
to come back?
[> [> [> Don't be
too sure it was her idea - the not coming back -- The Ghost,
15:29:55 05/23/03 Fri
[> [> Is it because of
the baby? -- mamcu, 09:27:53 05/24/03 Sat
[> Re: Cordelia/Charisma
(spoilers to End S4 Ats -- Rohar, 16:08:45 05/23/03 Fri
I agree totally here, and if this is the case I am very annoyed
as an Angel fan too.. especially if it wasn't her idea and she's
not coming back at all ... and if so, they should have closed
the Cordelia story, not left it dangling tantalisingly with her
in a coma ...
There just looked so much potential development and storyline
for bringing back Cordelia ... I was really looking forward anticipating
her reaction to AI joining up with Wolfram & Hart and perhaps
learning how she felt trapped and unavailable to do anything whiile
Jasmine took over, or how much she remembered due to the Connor
memory reset .... so to learn that she's going to possibly just
vaguely disappear is very disappointing ....
Rohar
[> [> Well she is a mother.
-- Laura, 16:14:33 05/23/03 Fri
I think it probably has to do withe fact that Charisma has a baby
now and it is hard to care for one when you're on a television
show at the same time. Probably she knows her so should come first.
[> [> [> Re: Well
she is a mother. -- Rohar, 22:51:10 05/23/03 Fri
Just to Clarify: If Cordelia leaving the series is Charisma Carpenter's
decision and to do with wanting to spend time with her son, then
I can totally understand that .. If however, as is being rumoured,
it was the decision of someone else to remove her, that to me
would be very disappointing and frustrating.
[> [> [> Re: Well
she is a mother. -- Nino, 23:17:08 05/23/03 Fri
Well, I think I speak for a lot of people in saying that we understand
that if it was Charisma'a decision, there are no hard feelings...we
understand that a baby takes priority. But its not cool to leave
a vital character like that totally ignored....not to say I didn't
LOVE Evil Cordy, but if the character has indeed been gone for
the whole season, she deserves some kind of closure after seven
years...Personally, her dying (although it would suck) would be
better then the coma shit...we have all learned to accept death
in the Buffyverse....just don't forget about her altogether with
some lame ass explanation or something
[> [> [> [> There's
possibly bad blood between her and ME -- Ray, 02:37:36
05/24/03 Sat
I know during Season 3 she had some problem with alcohol maybe
even drugs (not too clear on the details) and was givn a month
off to sort it out (hence the Mexican vacation with Groo).
I assume she cleaned herself up since she later got pregnant but
she may have been unhappy with ME and decided just to leave once
her contract was up.
Again, this is just speculation based on rumors.
[> [> [> [> [>
Hang on a minuet.... -- yabyumpan, 04:13:18 05/24/03
Sat
I know during Season 3 she had some problem with alcohol maybe
even drugs (not too clear on the details) and was givn a month
off to sort it out
Just how exactly do you know this? There has NEVER been
any indication that CC has a drug/alcohol problem. The time she
had off in S3 was to do with a movie she was filming - 'The Groomsman'.
Please keep your totally unfounded 'rumours' to yourself!
To get back to the subject in hand - I think ME have handled this
situation very badly. It's possible CC & ME are still in negotiaitons,
it's possible CC may have decided to become a full-time Mum, it's
possible that ME may have 'let her go'. The facts are that the
cast for next season has been known for nearly two weeks, it doesn't
include CC and so far we have had NOTHING official from ME to
indicate why. IMO the deafening silence reflects very badly on
ME and the longer it goes on the more the rumour mills are churning.
CC has been with ME since day one, I think she and her fans deserve
better than this. If they're still trying to work things out then
just a short statement saying that 'negatiations are in progress',
or something along those lines would have helped calm things down.
As it stands now, there are a lot of CC fans who, as well as being
upset that she is no longer a regular, are also very pissed at
getting the silent treatment from ME. Joss and Co really need
to work on their PR skills!
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Probable rumour source -- KdS, 05:36:25 05/24/03
Sat
At the time these allegations were circulating last year, Yancy
Butler, who starred in the series Witchblade, definitely
did take time off due to booze/drug problems, and it seems some
people heard a "TV fantasy actress" was involved and
jumped to conclusions.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Kds is Correct and CC's disappearence was due to
-- s'kat, 09:36:32 05/24/03 Sat
CC had negotiated for time off to appear in a movie which also
required blond hair. ME had no problem with it because
it fit in with their storyline plans. Having Wes kidnap
Connor while Cordy was around would never have worked.
They needed Cordelia to be away at that point and Charisma wanted
to do a film, so it worked out for everyone.
My source? SFX's interview with Tim Minear for the 2002 SFX
Dec. issue. See archives for my transcripts of this interview.
Minear said and I quote - that Charisma wanted to do a movie and
they knew it would be better for the story if she was gone. I
trust Minear.
Regarding the alcohol/drug problem? That has been confirmed as
Yancy Butler of Witchblade by the press. It was NEVER
CC.
Fox is the one in charge of contract negotiations with the actors
not ME. Whedon stated in a recent interview, believe it was salon,
that Fox had treated Emma Caulfield badly - so badly that she
didn't want to come back as Anya in any form. She wanted to work
with ME again, loved Anya, loved the cast and crew - just not
Fox or the people on the business end. I suspect CC's problems
may have also been with Fox and the deal makers. If you want to
blame someone? Blame CC's agents and Fox, not ME, not other actors,
not CC. A deal just couldn't be worked out - it probably came
down to time and money - heck, they had the same problems working
out deals with Amber Benson and Seth Green. It's the nature of
the business - finding a deal that works for both parties. Since
we'll never find out the inside scoop or specifics of the deal
- we can't since it would be a breach of confidentiality for either
party to tell us and it would blacken their careers in Hollywood
- it's probably best to just let it go.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> WEll, we Do know that -- mamcu, 10:24:31
05/24/03 Sat
Fox sux!
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> Not completely... -- s'kat, 10:36:41
05/24/03 Sat
Buffy the Vampire Slayer would never have been the TV series we
know and love if it weren't for Gail Berman and Fox. Nor for that
matter would Angel the Series exist or Firefly.
Fox commissioned these series. They approached Joss Whedon and
asked him to creat a series around Buffy and make it different
than the movie. They gave him creative control.
Television is a business...take the bad with the good.
If it weren't for Fox and the WB - BTVS would not exist.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> Trued. It giveth and it taketh
away. -- mamcu, 11:00:51 05/24/03 Sat
Just still feeling burned by the mishandling of Firefly.
But then, I'm realizing that I clearly don't know anything. I
thought Angel was on WB--that's not the same as Fox, right? Wrong?
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> [> 20th CenturyFox produced/produces
all three shows. Networks air them. -- mj, 11:24:50 05/24/03
Sat
...and that's about all I understand about the distinctions of
the companies involved. Even when Buffy went from the WB to UPN,
the show itself was made in the same studios by the same people.
The FOX broadcast network did seem to mess up Firefly though.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Fox and its Many
Divisions -- Dochawk, 11:49:29 05/24/03 Sat
Gail Berman used to be head of TV Production for Fox. TV production
divisions produce shows and sell them to whatever network. (The
best example of this is Friends, Produced by WB Television but
aired on NBC). It was her belief in Joss' vision that got BtVS
started. Fox the TV network turned it down. Thats lucky for us,
because if it had been on Fox Buffy would have lasted through
"The Witch". It was Fox television productions, now
headed by someone else who engineered the move to UPN and negotiates
the contracts. Fox TVP got 2.3 million/episode for BtVS from UPN.
They then had to give SMG and AH big raises and the rest of the
cast smaller raises. EC was screwed on the raises. JW got a pretty
big raise too, I would guess.
Gail Berman is now the head of Fox Television. Because of her
belief in Joss, Fox Entertainment bought Firefly. unfortunately
somewhere in there Fox Entertainment didn't have the trust in
Joss' vision that Gail Berman did and they screwed up Firefly.
These are different people and different decision makers.
A third division Fox Home Video produces the ME DVDs. they are
much easier to work with for everyone. But, Fox TV production
still gets the profits, not ME. (Does this sound incestuous to
anyone else here).
FX is a 4th division of Fox, they show the Buffy weekday reruns.
David Duchovney sued Fox over a similar situation that Fox sold
X-File reruns to FX too cheaply. (and sounding more incestuous)
Hopefully that clears things up. Hate some of Fox, like other
parts.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Thanks! Never
knew how much I didn't know. -- mamcu, 12:05:21 05/24/03
Sat
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I'm angry in
some ways that they got me. -- DickBD, 13:04:37 05/24/03
Sat
...as I am very concerned about media monopolies. And Fox is about
as bad as it gets in that respect. But you have to work within
the system, or so it seems. It just seems shabby for a genius
like Joss to be a pawn of bean counters.
I suppose Mark Twain demonstrated that creative geniuses are not
necessarily financial wizards, although he certainly never went
broke.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> Re: Kds is Correct and CC's disappearence
was due to -- yabyumpan, 14:38:22 05/24/03 Sat
If you want to blame someone? Blame CC's agents and Fox, not
ME, not other actors, not CC.
I think it's highly probable that there are problems/hold ups
with contract negotiations, that's another issue entirely. My
problem, and that of many other CC fans is the total silence from
ME. I can't see any reason that ME couldn't have issued a statement
to the effect that contract negotiations are ongoing etc. Imagine
if it was AD that wasn't on the cast list for next seasons and
there'd been no official statement or acknowledgement of his absence
from ME for nearly two weeks. I would imagine that AD fans would
also be pretty upset. So yes, I will blame ME, not for any 'negotiation
problems' but for their silence regarding the whole affair. It's
alienating a large part of their fan base and causing a lot of
bad feeling, which wouldn't have happened if it had been handled
better.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> Joss said he would talk about it Tuesday
-- lunasea, 06:10:49 05/25/03 Sun
The WB was royally pissed when faux-Joss was on the Beta Bronze,
so pissed that Joss himself had to make a statement. I can't imagine
ME saying anything would make Fox any happier. Should Fox get
that pissed and there won't be ANY CC, instead of possible appearances
down the road.
Just wait until Joss' statement on Tuesday. It is only a few days
away.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> Agree with lunasea -- s'kat, 10:29:27
05/25/03 Sun
My problem, and that of many other CC fans is the total silence
from ME.
I think Lunasea is right here - wait until they release the official
statement.
[> [> [> [> Who
knows but.... -- mj, 06:17:13 05/24/03 Sat
David Fury and Tim Minear - in the Succubus Club interview - insisted
that no one was forced off of AtS. Connor's story ended the way
they had planned.
As for CC, they said she was supposed to be the one who killed
Jasmine but the actress simply couldn't physically do the work
during and after her pregnancy. The pregnancy really changed the
direction of Season 4. I also read somewhere (OK another rumorish
thing of non-specific origin) that CC would have liked going back
to more of a comic relief role. I don't see how the show could
regress the character that much after everything that happened
in Season 4. It could very well have been an amicable parting
of ways.
I just think there was a mis-fit between the actor's skills and
the demands of the evolving role. It could be the ME and CC both
decided that it would be best to cut Cordy's role or at least
reduce it.
[> I wouldn't assume (minor
spoiler for End of Days) -- lunasea, 09:05:17 05/24/03
Sat
Well, I wouldn't assume much of anything when it comes to Joss.
Even if CC can't come back for whatever reason, I don't think
her story will just end with her in a coma. There is any number
of things they can do without the actress present.
It might be an interesting way to explore the controversial topic
of euthanasia. If there is no way to bring Cordy back and the
only way for her to go on to heaven is for Angel to actually end
her life, would he do it?
She could also be used as a pawn in the attempt to corrupt Angel.
He could have to make a choice about whether to get deeper in
bed with Wolfram and Hart or to remove her to some place else.
Maybe even the PTBs will intervene and offer to take her somewhere.
They could also do a spell like was done in End of Days so that
Cordy could talk through someone else. They could use a brain
sucker or something similar (that Fred develops) on her to find
out just what happened last season. If it is found out that it
wasn't just a possessed Cordy that did all those things, how will
Angel react? Cordy tricked him into doing the one thing he hates
most.
What if they find out that vamping her would bring her back. They
could curse her afterwards. Would Angel inflict this on anyone?
The idea of cursing vamps rather than dusting them has never really
been addressed. Might get an interesting battle between Angel
and WKCS over this.
Groo could come back with a cure, but it involves her going to
another dimension and Angel will never be able to see her again.
That is just off the top of my head. I'm sure that ME will discuss
this at the upcoming story meeting where they figure out what
the heck to do with the Buffy refugees.
I don't think Cordelia's story will end where it is.
[> [> I don't think soul
cursing's an option -- Finn Mac Cool, 15:40:48 05/24/03
Sat
I personally believe that the gypsy spell used to restore Angel's
soul was specifically designed to work for Angel. After all, when
Willow performed the spell in "Becoming", there was
no way she was experienced enough to change the spell in any way,
so she had no way of telling the spell exactly whose soul it was
supposed to return. This leads me to believe that the gypsies
wrote the spell with Angel in mind, and that giving a soul to
another vampire would require writing a new spell. Now, if the
writers wanted to bring up giving a soul to a new vampire, they
could certainly have someone (most likely with the resources of
W&H) alter the spell sufficiently, but even for very powerful
and experienced magicians it can be difficult to find the right
spell (Willow, despite her great power, was never able to create
a spell in Season Six to de-rat Amy; she had to perform a spell
to find the right spell, and it's uncertain if that would work
for a spell that was never written).
Now, some people have suggested that you wouldn't have to use
the gypsy spell to restore a vampire's soul; you could just go
to the lurker demon in Africa, with the added bonus of there being
no happiness clause. However, considering all that Spike went
through for one soul restoration, it's quite simply impractical.
Angel's probably the only other person besides Spike who could
survive the trials (even a Slayer couldn't withstand the bug evisceration),
and he'd have to be beaten till he was near death to get even
one soul restored. It's quite simply too difficult to make restoring
vampires' souls a common practice.
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