May 2003 posts

Empowerment, redemption, and a very satisfying conclusion (very, very long) -- sassette, 19:39:23 05/21/03 Wed

First off, I just want to thank all of you for the extremely insightful and intelligent posts about "Chosen." I used to be a regular on several BtVS boards, but the air of bitterness and negativity in S6 and S7 just got to be too much for me and I stopped finding reading what others had to say about the show fun anymore, and instead began to find it aggravating. But you all have been so smartly critical about the show that reading through some of your posts gave me chills. So, thanks!

I was blown away by "Chosen." Well, maybe that's not quite right. It didn't blow me away, because it was so clearly, at least for me, the way the show was meant to end. It didn't blow me away, because it was not shocking, once I thought about it. Instead, the episode as a whole gave me the feeling I get when I hear a song or read a poem that puts into words feelings that I've had but hadn't even realized I'd had until that moment. I think what that means is that, for me, "Chosen" ended the series exactly the way I've thought it should end but never realized until I saw it.

Now, my view of the finale is no doubt very biased. I'm a pretty easygoing gal, and the list of things I feel very strongly about in this world is very short: feminism, gentle childrearing, and Spike's redemption. (Well, okay, there are more things than that but, in terms of topics that will get me going for hours, those are probably the top three.) Joss, in all of his wisdom, hit on two of them last night, and in ways that really struck a chord with me. So, I should come out before I even began as an ardent feminist and a hard-core redemptionista (but not a Spuffy), which no doubt leads me to a far more positive view of the finale than a lot of other people had.

I loved, loved, loved that way the Slayer plotline was tied up. For so long I've seen people argue over whether or not Buffy should be a "normal girl" at the end of the series. Joss did us one better; he turned normal girls into Buffy. I thought it was a very, very powerful and touching move, and that the series could not have ended in a way that more effectively fulfilled the feminist premise of the series.

I am shocked and actually very troubled by how negatively many people are reacting to the activation of all of the potentials. I've seen endless discussion of how the ending of "Chosen" was anti-male. This strikes me as both ridiculous and actually somewhat appalling. I don't see how anyone could have been watching BtVS for the past seven years and not realized that empowering women does *not* require disempowering men. Buffy has never emasculated any of the men on the series, and she has never made any of the women feel inferior. Instead, over and over again, characters became better people because of their association with her. Her power empowered her friends and acquaintances just as her power activated the Slayers. Because of his association with Buffy, Xander stopped seeing himself as just the class clown and realized that he was an important, worthwhile person. Because of his association with Buffy, Giles stopped seeing himself as just a stuffy old Watcher and realized that he could think and act and, perhaps most importantly, feel for himself. Because of his association with Buffy, Angel stopped seeing himself as a worthless waste of a body and realized that he could be of far more use to the world helping the helpless than chasing down rats in the sewers and brooding over his past misdeeds. Because of his association with Buffy, Andrew realized that community can be found in doing good, and not just in doing evil. And, it's been that way for the female characters, too. Because of her association with Buffy, Willow stopped seeing herself as a spineless geek and realized that she too could be empowered. Because of her association with Buffy, Cordy stopped worrying all the time about what other people thought of her and began to do what she wanted. Because of her association with Buffy, Jenny realized that she did not have to be unthinkingly loyal to her family. And, then those effects were past on to others. Because of her association with Xander, Anya not only realized what it meant to be a good person, but actually wanted to be one. Because of her association with Willow, Tara realized that she was a person who was beautiful and lovable and strong. Because of his association with me, my husband is no doubt a far better person . . . oh, wait, this is about "Buffy." Sorry.

The point? Real power, the kind of power Buffy has, the kind of power she gave to the potentials, is not about making other people feel weak, but about making them feel strong. It's what Buffy has (almost) always done, and I see no reason to assume that the newly activated Slayers will do anything differently. I don't think the result is going to be a bunch of boys suddenly feeling like victims (geez, has there been a wave of people reading Christina Hoff Summers on the BtVS boards or something? because, really, people, like a lot of the hot blond anti-fems out there, she's not "politically incorrect," she's just incorrect), but a bunch of girls who are strong enough to bring out the strength in the people around them. This isn't about the wanton use of violence, it isn't about girls who are going to start physically threatening their parents or their classmates, but about girls who have a destiny and who are connected to others like them and who have a place in the fate of the world, and who can empower those around them to seek out the best in themselves, even if getting to that best is a long and hard and sometimes very dark process--a process that takes strength to go through.

Perhaps most remarkable is what Buffy did for Spike. When people talk about Spike being emasculated or losing his balls, I find it pretty laughable. If going from killing people to helping them is the result of emasculation, then I am all for ball-busting, I guess. But, really, Spike said it himself--Buffy didn't unman him, but saw the man in him. Spike sought to validate his masculine identity in all of the wrong ways: raping, murdering, fighting. But, that didn't make him a man; it made him a monster. And, he learned that through Buffy. He learned through his association with her (and a lot of operant conditioning) that helping others is better than killing them. He learned that wanton violence and unrepentant killing and gleeful rape are the work of the monster, and that compassion, trust, and intimacy are traits of men. And that, to me, is anything but emasculating. It is empowering. It is getting rid of a rigid notion of what it means to be a man, it is doing away with destructive (and self-destructive) notions of manhood, and replacing it with something far healthier, larger, and sane.

Buffy and Willow did the right thing. They did the unselfish thing. Buffy gave up the one thing that set her apart, that made her special. She never saw herself as especially smart or especially loveable or especially good. As Holden noted in CwDP, Buffy has both an inferiority complex because she feels she doesn't deserve her power, and a superiority complex because she feels that her destiny makes her better. In sharing her power, in giving away the thing that made her "better," Buffy proved that she was indeed worthy of it in the first place.

And, I think that Buffy and Willow changed what it means to be a Slayer. The Shadow Men used dark magic to create their Slayer; they used violence; they used chains; they used their staff. They infused the First with the power of a demon, and after that the power of the Slayer came from darkness. That darkness is in Buffy, and it is in Faith, and it is where so much of their conflict comes from. The Slayer always walked the line between light and dark; her power was from darkness but she used it for good. But, I think that has changed, now. The new Slayers didn't get their power from a glowly green demon; they got it from Buffy. Willow used white magic to activate the Slayers; she used the scythe, forged by women. Their power comes from a place of light. Perhaps they will not have the darkness in them that has caused so much pain for Slayers in the past.

Eradicating darkness. It wasn't a total victory in the end, since there are still fronts to fight on, but eradicating the dark was a major theme. In the end, just as the Slayer power might have been purged of its darkness, Spike too was purged of his darkness. It wasn't the sunlight, but the power of Spike's soul that defeated the ubervamps. And, I don't think any other soul would have worked. Not Buffy's, not Angel's. It had to be Spike's, because his soul was chosen. He was a testament to the limitations of the power of the ubervamps. Their evil, their darkness, was not all-encompassing, because Spike himself fought it and won. He had that darkness in him, but he made a choice, and that choice was his soul. Love proved, in the Spike storyline, to be more powerful than evil, at least when accompanied by frequent, well-time shocks. Evil proved to be fallible. So of course, in the end, it had to be Spike who took out the army of vampires. As I think many of us who have cheered Spike's redemption would agree, one vampire who chooses to do good means more than legions of vampires who give into their instincts for evil.

"Chosen" was clearly for us. It was for those of us who have watched Buffy and admired her and hated her and rooted for her and questioned her and criticized her and followed her for seven years. And the message was that everything we love about her, everything we admire about her, everything we hate about her, is in us to. It is there for the taking. Maybe it doesn't mean much to me now, as an adult, but I think of myself at 14, at 16, at 18, and that message would have meant a lot to me, especially considering most of the messages coming to me from my television, coming to me from the movie screen, coming to me from the radio. "You're Aging Well" is not one of my favorite Dar Williams' songs, but I have always liked the lyrics:

Why is it that as we grow older and stronger
The road signs point us adrift and make us afraid
Saying "You never can win," "Watch your back," "Where's your husband?"
Oh I don't like the signs that the signmakers made.

So I'm going to steal out with my paint and brushes
I'll change the directions, I'll hit every street
It's the Tinseltown scandal, the Robin Hood vandal
She goes out and steals the King's English
And in the morning you wake up and the signs point to you

They say
"I'm so glad that you finally made it here,"
"You thought nobody cared, but I did, I could tell,"
And "This is your year," and "It always starts here,"
And oh, "You're aging well."

To me, those lyrics make me feel the way "Chosen" did. Buffy and Willow took all of the things that had always been done--by the Watchers, by the Shadow Men, even by the SG--and turned it around. They stole the power that those men had wanted to keep for themselves and turned it loose on girls all over the world. And Joss took all of the things TV tells us about being a girl--that you have to be sweet, you have to be skinny, you have to be pretty, you have to have a boyfriend, you have to be careful, you have to be afraid, you have to listen to what people tell you to do--and turned that around, by creating female characters who defined many of those stereotypes and, finally, in the finale, offering their strength to the viewer. I could not have asked for more.

[> Oops . . . major major *spoilers* for "Chosen" above" -- sassette, 20:25:25 05/21/03 Wed

[> Agree...like this post. -- s'kat, 20:43:53 05/21/03 Wed

[> Very, very nice. -- Calvin, 20:56:47 05/21/03 Wed

That's just what I was going to say. If, you know, I could actually write about the show that well. And I was smarter. And coherent for more than 4 minutes at a time.

Calvin

[> Hi, sassette--great post! Welcome to the board! -- cjl (fellow BC&S refugee), 21:01:40 05/21/03 Wed

[> Thank you for writing this. -- Artemis, 21:43:42 05/21/03 Wed

[> What a wonderful post! -- HonorH, 22:43:24 05/21/03 Wed

And you're completely right, IMHO: the end was about sharing power, giving it--not about taking it. The elevation of these girls in no way diminishes men. Witness Giles' reaction to what Buffy suggests: "It's bloody brilliant!" He represents the old establishment, the one he was an ill fit for, but was still a part of. The conflict between him and Buffy this season was all a part of the old vs. the new. But he saw the genius in Buffy's plan, saw the good it would do, and cast aside his preconceptions of "This is the way it's done" in favor of the greater good.

We have a spectacular array of men following Buffy into battle. Robin Wood, who set aside his vendetta for the greater good and was ultimately willing to work alongside the being who killed his mother. Xander, who's never been intimidated by Buffy's strength, but has flourished alongside her. Andrew, who started out such a nobody that people couldn't even remember his name, but grew until he was willing and ready to give up his life for Buffy's cause. We've already discussed Giles and Spike. The advent of the new Slayers in no way diminishes these men, just as it doesn't diminish the women who weren't chosen, like Anya or Dawn. Rather, it uplifts them, since they're all so willing to see these women live up to their potential, and would never begrudge them their strength.

[> Actually Buffy did emasculate a man.... -- Charlemagne, 22:53:06 05/21/03 Wed

Caleb

But he deserved it.

Men who try and destroy females sense of self-actualization are setting themselves up for it anyhow

:-)

[> Yes. Yes! YES! -- Just George, 23:12:42 05/21/03 Wed

sassette: "Buffy has never emasculated any of the men on the series, and she has never made any of the women feel inferior. Instead, over and over again, characters became better people because of their association with her. Her power empowered her friends and acquaintances just as her power activated the Slayers. Because of his association with Buffy, Xander stopped seeing himself as just the class clown and realized that he was an important, worthwhile person. Because of his association with Buffy, Giles stopped seeing himself as just a stuffy old Watcher and realized that he could think and act and, perhaps most importantly, feel for himself. Because of his association with Buffy, Angel stopped seeing himself as a worthless waste of a body and realized that he could be of far more use to the world helping the helpless than chasing down rats in the sewers and brooding over his past misdeeds. Because of his association with Buffy, Andrew realized that community can be found in doing good, and not just in doing evil. And, it's been that way for the female characters, too. Because of her association with Buffy, Willow stopped seeing herself as a spineless geek and realized that she too could be empowered. Because of her association with Buffy, Cordy stopped worrying all the time about what other people thought of her and began to do what she wanted. Because of her association with Buffy, Jenny realized that she did not have to be unthinkingly loyal to her family. And, then those effects were past on to others. Because of her association with Xander, Anya not only realized what it meant to be a good person, but actually wanted to be one. Because of her association with Willow, Tara realized that she was a person who was beautiful and lovable and strong."

Yes. Yes! YES! Thank you for stating this so clearly. Over the past 7 years, I've come to think that Buffy's greatest power has been her effect on others. She is a role model. Her "heroism" seems to rub off on those around her. Buffy example set the standards for sacrifice and selflessness on the Scooby's journey. And despite all of the pain, and betrayal, and doubt that occurred along the way (or maybe because of it if you want to go all Nietzsche), Buffy and the Scocobies are greater for having been through their journey together.

They began as outcasts and end as heroes.

-JG

[> Hey, Sassette! I used to visit BC&S for your posts! -- Rahael, 23:56:51 05/21/03 Wed

And this is a great tribute.

[> I've got maybe a problem... -- Darby, 05:50:06 05/22/03 Thu

I understand the imagery, but it was a little off the mark for me.

Buffy has been about empowerment - both female and the males who accept them empowered - but, beyond the initial off-screen Choosing, that power has either come from or been developed from within. Willow and Buffy both have been cautionary tales about receiving too much power / validation from external sources.

The sharing of the Slayer power with the other Potentials, who had worked for it and aupposedly chosen to accept it (but how could they not?) was also a very Buffyesque metaphor, as she accepted them like equals and they stepped up to be what she expected of them.

And, y'know, with the established plotline, Joss could have easily forgotten about the undiscovered Slayers out in the world. But he didn't, and they were empowered from without, with no understanding of what was going on, and the message there I find disturbing. I suspect it was a metaphor for what he hoped the show (after all, Buffy and Buffy is him) had done in the world, and I suppose I should give him that presumption.

But it still bothers me.

[> Great post, sassette! It's great to see you back here again-- it's been too long. -- OnM, 08:05:03 05/22/03 Thu

Back when I used to visit the BC&S regularly, your posts were always among the most clickable ones.

I'd be very happy to see you start posting here at ATPo regularly, and I'm sure the other boarders who've read your commentary before would emphatically agree.

Welcome!

[> Absolutely! -- mrfh, 08:10:07 05/22/03 Thu

"He learned through his association with her (and a lot of operant conditioning) that helping others is better than killing them. He learned that wanton violence and unrepentant killing and gleeful rape are the work of the monster, and that compassion, trust, and intimacy are traits of men. And that, to me, is anything but emasculating. It is empowering. It is getting rid of a rigid notion of what it means to be a man, it is doing away with destructive (and self-destructive) notions of manhood, and replacing it with something far healthier, larger, and sane."

This hit home with me completely. The fact that the show is about female empowerment never meant that men lost their power....rather, they were made more powerful by their acceptance of woman's power. I've been wondering at what age I will decide to show my child (coming in September) the entire Buffy series. It truly speaks to what it means to be a woman or a man, and this sums it up perfectly.

Thanks for the fabulous insight. I so rarely post here, and now that I have more time after finishing grad school, the show is over! I'm hoping to have more time to discuss Angel next fall between changings and feedings.

[> Re: Empowerment, redemption, and a very satisfying conclusion (very, very long) -- Arethusa, 08:21:32 05/22/03 Thu

Darn it, you said what I wanted to say! Very good post, sassette.

To take someone's personal power away, you have to convince them that they have none, and make them afraid to seek it. The FE was incorporeal because it was both the outer voices that tells women that they have no power, and the inner voice that tells women that they don't need or deserve any. But that's all it was-a voice. It could only convice people to harm themselves or give up hope. It couldn't do anything itself.

There is Potential in each of us women. There is power and strength and courage. We have the Heart to love and share, the Spirit to understand and create, the Mind to think and grow, the Hands to build our futures. We cannot let that power be usurped or subjegated. We form over half of the world's population, yet many of us let the other half tell us what we can and cannot be or do. Power can't be taken without our permission.

I too was very very happy with the message of empowerment in "Chosen." Buffy learned to believe in and trust herself, and that made her able to teach others to do the same. By sharing power instead of hoarding it she became stronger and, finally, no longer alone. She and the thousands of other girls who share in her power are free to be what they want to be, go where they want to go. And so are the rest of us, if we believe we can.

[> [> Great interpretation of the FE. -- sassette, 09:32:22 05/22/03 Thu

It's interesting that, from what we saw, the FE worked by trying to instill doubt and fear in the female characters, and by trying to instill anger and hatred in the male characters. The FE was the voice telling Robin that he had failed his mother--had failed in his duties as a son and as a man--and had to go out and take revenge. The FE was the voice telling Spike that he was a killer, and trying to convince him that a woman who wouldn't let him possess her was a bitch.

BtVS has, I think, always been about resisting those voices. It has always held that women do not need to be afraid, either of others or, more importantly, of their own power. And, it's always held that men can be men without resorting to conventional and limiting notions of masculinity, in which they have to harm or subjegate others in order to feel like real men.

Both BtVS and AtS hold out the message that women do not have to fear being strong--that that doesn't make them unloveable or unbearable or unfeminine. And, it is always held that men do not have to be like their fathers (a strong anti-patriarchal message if ever their was one), whether those fathers be their actual fathers (for Xander and Wesley), the CoW, or their sires. I think the message is that both men and women can break out of the bonds that keep them trapped within stereotypical ideas of what it means to be a man or a women. And it's a really cool idea to think that the FE was playing on that. I hadn't thought of that until you wrote it, but it makes a lot of sense.

[> [> [> wow, sassette & arethusa--not sure whose is the KA & whose is the BOOM! -- anom, 23:59:05 05/22/03 Thu

But this is great--what synergy! I'm copying your posts to keep...maybe I'll have more to say later.

[> [> Re: Eleanor Roosevelt: Cousin to the Slayer line? -- PartlyCloudy, 16:02:56 05/22/03 Thu

This post about The First put me in mind of her famous quote:

"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent"

Maybe we could also substitute "inferior" with a bunch of other things emphasized over the years on BtVS and in this whole series of posts: self-doubt, hatred, helpless, etc.

Hats off to all in this series above and below; so much goodness my heart is singing a little song that I'll carry with me the rest of the day. Thanks, everyone!

[> [> [> Cousin? Maybe she was a Potential herself! -- Wizard, 17:13:12 05/22/03 Thu

[> [> That was breathtaking! -- WickedBuffy ::getting tired of this name::, 17:52:16 05/22/03 Thu

[> I've got a smile on my face -- ponygirl, 08:28:36 05/22/03 Thu

That was a great tribute to the series!

[> Great post and thank you! -- Caroline, 08:32:01 05/22/03 Thu

I guess that I would also call myself a redemptionista (what a great word!) and that's why the end was so satifying for me. In my view, Buffy, Willow, Anya and Spike were all redeemed. It was the ending I needed - to know that transformation is possible and even though there are losses, it does bring a reward, a gift into all our lives. Buffy gave the world the gift of her redemption and the redemption that she made possible for others. Because while the show may have a feminist/empowerment motif, it's not really the surface feminism of a little blonde chick kicking butt. It's the feminism for men and women - a feminism which acknowledges the different aspects of our selves, both male and female, and values them all. That's why I had no problems with Xander being the hero at the end of S6 - he saved Willow and the world through his feelings, his love and compassion. Just cos Xander is a guy doesn't mean that he doesn't get to express his own femininity. I think that Joss is ultimately saying that neither men nor women have to be defined by external projections of feminine and masculine, that we can define ourselves as we wish.

[> [> Right! -- sassette, 09:17:43 05/22/03 Thu

That is exactly why I've always seen BtVS as a very feminist show. The "little blonde girl kicking ass" thing, to me, is not particularly feminist. But, the fact that the show allows both men and women to explore all parts of themselves--those that are feminine, those that are masculine, those that are light, those that are dark--without being made to feel as if they are somehow not really men or not really women for doing so.

[> [> [> Re: Right! -- drcoulter, 13:15:36 05/22/03 Thu

Sassette,

thank you so much for your wonderful post that started this thread. I loved and enjoyed it very much!! I have been lurking on this board for a very long time now, and posts like yours have always helped me to understand the show's deeper meaning and messages so much better. Actually, I even posted here once myself (about Buffy seeing her childhood as heaven).

That is exactly why I've always seen BtVS as a very feminist show. The "little blonde girl kicking ass" thing, to me, is not particularly feminist. But, the fact that the show allows both men and women to explore all parts of themselves--those that are feminine, those that are masculine, those that are light, those that are dark--without being made to feel as if they are somehow not really men or not really women for doing so.

It's a feminist show in that the main character is a girl/woman who fights and is stronger than you would think by just looking at her, who stands up against false authority and sends her boyfriend to hell when he goes 'evil'. But I also agree with Age who used to post here until some time ago (I so miss his insightful interpretations of the episodes) who called BtVS a show about humanity. Which is why in the greater scheme of things gender doesn't really matter, so to speak. It's about what makes us human, how and why, whether we are male or female.

I have posted some thoughts on the show and its message in my livejournal, you find them here if you are interested (spoilers through End of Days). As for the Slayer part, I think that statement in Chosen was not so much about Buffy sharing her power but about clarifying that this is what being a Slayer really means and has meant all along: a girl/woman who struggles with the hardships of life, relationship trouble, family problems etc. She makes mistakes, she stumbles and falls, more than once she is about to give up but in the end always gets up again and continues to fight, every time stronger than before. For a long time she thought she was the only one having to deal with all this. But now she has realised that in fact she is not alone, never was and never will be. She is us and we are her. And I so love this show.:-)))

Thanks again for your wonderful post.

drcoulter
PS: My apologies for any bad and/or clumsy spelling, grammar and wording (I'm not a native speaker.:-))

[> Beautiful! -- Dyna, 10:10:02 05/22/03 Thu

[> Best I've Read yet on 7.22 -- frisby, 13:41:17 05/22/03 Thu

This is good, the best on 7.22 I've read yet. Thank you sassette for excellent analysis and insight. And while I'm at it, thank you Mutant Enemy (cast and crew)! And special thanks to Joss and Sarah.

-- and James.

A small voice of gratitude -- Sophist, 19:42:59 05/21/03 Wed

This isn't, necessarily, a farewell. Masq's invitation to "go back to the beginning" is, well, inviting. I also hope to continue to participate in Rob's annotation project. Nevertheless, BtVS - IMHO the greatest show in television history - has now ended. I hope the discussion will continue, but as old posters fade away the opportunity for thanks will be lost forever. If I post this now, I can myself slip silently away without remorse.

The hardest part about writing a thank you letter to so many people is that I'm bound to forget someone or underplay his/her contributions. I'll have to take that risk; the cost of failing to thank those who so richly deserve it would be far higher.

First and foremost, like everyone here, I owe a huge debt to Masq for creating an extraordinary place for us to indulge our mutual obsession. She's put in more work than I can imagine and put up with much that I'd prefer not to (even when I'm the perpetrator). Her patience and fortitude are equally remarkable.

I also owe special thanks to many others, in no particular order:

To Ete, with whom my disagreements about the show could probably be counted on one finger. She shares my taste for the dark, the disturbing, and the bittersweet. She unfailingly posts with humor, patience, and that charming French accent.

To Rahael, who made me more sensitive to metaphor in S6 than I ever was in my entire life before. Rah's posts were the single biggest reason I kept returning to the Board; she has the rare gift of making profound points in lyrical prose. Her harmonics are frequently as rich as her themes, leading to digressions which were a source of delight to me.

To LittleBit, who posts far too rarely, but whose nightly presence in chat makes the chatroom the emotional center of the Board.

To Malandanza, who never fails to point out the flaws in my posts nor to allow me to return the favor to his. I'm sure he conceded more of my points than I did of his. That reflects more on the nature of our respective personalities than the quality of our respective arguments.

To Darby, who demonstrated remarkable patience in discussing his profession with an amateur. Darby so intelligently designs his threads - I like to think of them as his progeny - that they rapidly occupy all available Board resources. He punctuates them with new ideas to keep them constantly evolving, making his threads truly meme-orable. He must be quite a teacher.

To d'Herblay, who responded to my requests regarding the archives with patience and alacrity. His sense of whimsy never failed to add a lighter note to the darkest threads.

To Doc, for organizing the LA meet, for keeping us all in line when it comes to Spike, for being Willow's second greatest defender, and for personal favors he knows about.

To DeadSoul, whose fanfic made my workdays more, uh ...... interesting. And kept me sitting very near my desk.

To Rob, whose work in creating the Annotated Buffy site has been and will be immensely valuable, and whose flair with pompoms is unmatched.

To Shadowkat, whose quantity of production is matched only by her quality. I don't know how you manage it s'k, but every week you gave us insight that added immeasurably to my enjoyment of the show.

To redcat/Resh, a comrade in discussing so many topics well beyond the confines of the show.

To Ian, aliera, Random and cjl, whose personalities outshine even their scintillating posts.

To many posters whose every post I read with eager anticipation: manwitch, Ixchel, Robert, Caroline, ponygirl, KdS, Tchaikovsky, dream, pilgrim, shambleau, skyMatrix, Finn, Arethusa, fresne, Dyna, Valheru, deeva, leslie, matching mole, Anne, celticross, verdantheart, tim, yez, OnM, CW, Just George, mundus, Tyreseus, yuri, Anneth, alcibiades, Valhalla, Exegy, fidhle, and no doubt others whom I've embarrassingly omitted.

To everyone who tolerated my digressions onto obscure topics and my overly forceful expression of opinion.

Each and every one of you will always be a part of me. Someday I'll turn the corner in Istanbul and there you'll be. I won't be surprised. Because... you're with me, you know?

[> I'll keep an eye out for you, my friend. See you in Samarra... -- Random, 20:41:17 05/21/03 Wed

"Yon rising Moon that looks for us again --
How oft hereafter will she wax and wane;
How oft hereafter rising look for us
Through this same garden -- and for one in vain."

from the Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam Edward Fitzgerald

Thank you, Sophist. It's the end of an era, I know. But you see, one can't spend all this time reading other peoples' thoughts, chatting with them on topics diverse and fascinating, manic and profound, without realizing one day, without warning, you've become accustomed to them. They are real people, with lives and beliefs and dreams that matter, that somehow skirt your own. So I'll be looking for you to hang around a while for the same reason I'm hanging around -- cause this is a place where you belong, you're accepted...you're wanted. You'll never slip silently away, cause we'll definitely take notice. But I do raise a glass to you, my friend. Cause you, like so many others here, have infinitely enriched my Buffy experience. You're with me too. I'll be looking for you.

"And the night shall be filled with music
And the cares that infest the day
Shall fold their tents, like the Arabs,
And as silently steal away."

-- Longfellow, "The Day Is Done" (Longfellow isn't all bad, honest.)

[> [> Ditto...very well said. My thoughts echo Random's. -- s'kat, 20:53:08 05/21/03 Wed

[> Well said, counselor. Motion granted. -- cjl (saluting, lip trembling with emotion), 20:56:51 05/21/03 Wed

[> small voice? are you speaking of someone else? -- Jay, 21:17:16 05/21/03 Wed

[> [> LOL -- Sophist, 08:57:50 05/22/03 Thu

My thank-yous come in soft voice, my opinions in loud.

[> [> [> Ahhh. Read ya. -- Jay, 16:44:37 05/22/03 Thu

[> Re: A small voice of gratitude -- CW, 21:17:30 05/21/03 Wed

From the prologue to Pushkin's Ruslan and Ludmila:

On the shore by the bay, stands a green oak tree. And on that oak is a golden chain. And night and day a learned cat walks round and round along the chain. As it walks to the right it sings a song, and when it walks to the left it tells a tale.

Day or night you never know what to expect when you get on to the board. But, sometimes you just have to say it's magic that people who would never have met otherwise have come to look forward to spending time reading each others thoughts. My dyslexia and typing skills mean I really can't keep up with chat. It just goes by in a blur. But, even here in the slow lane on the board, it's been a pleasure meeting so many clever folks, and swapping Buffy info. Hope most of you will join our review discussions this summer, and will stick around for Angel next fall. Good health to those who must leave! Good posting and good fellowship to those of us who will remain!

[> Thanks for the shout-out, as a newbie I appreciate it! -- skyMatrix, 22:27:24 05/21/03 Wed

[> Beautiful, Sophist. Anybody have a hanky? -- Rob, blubbering on his pom-poms, 22:36:39 05/21/03 Wed

[> Oh, Sophist. So I guess this means no Angel for you? -- deeva, 23:00:45 05/21/03 Wed

Thanks for the mention as I truly don't know what you read of mine as they are usually just a few sentences. ;o) Will you be at least do very random drive-bys? Just a "hey" is good. See you in Istanbul.

[> [> Actually, I may. -- Sophist, 09:13:55 05/22/03 Thu

The changes I've seen discussed on the Board indicate to me that ME recognizes the problems on AtS and is taking serious steps to fix them. I'd say I'm not unreasonable and could change my mind, but you all know better.

[> [> [> It's a tough decision, isn't it? (WKCS AtV S5) -- dream, 11:56:28 05/22/03 Thu

Part of me wants to go cold turkey, part of me wants to cling to whatever remnants of the Buffyverse are out there. The general response among the Buffy viewers in my office was, "Spike's going to Angel? Damnit, am I going to have to watch Angel now?" I hate to admit it, but that was my feeling as well. Plus, like the whole workplace drama idea. But I would have to find someone to seet me up with the tapes each week, and part of me (the part that isn't distraught over the end of Buffy) kind of wants to be free of the television grip. Buffy has been a borderline unhealthy obsession, after all.

[> And just where do you think you're going, young man? -- LittleBit, 23:53:22 05/21/03 Wed

You don't get to slip away quite that easily, Spohist! errr...Sophist!

I agree with everything you said (except maybe one, but blushing too hard to object).

But as you left one significant (and hardly small) voice off your list, I shall take it upon myself to pat your back for you. Your voice will be sorely missed if you do indeed slip silently away. There are only a few people whose posts I look for when I haven't the time to read them all, and yours is at the top of that list. I have time and again been drawn into threads solely because of your responses in them.

I sincerely hope that you will be enticed into the discussions of episodes revisited. I, for one, value your opinions and plan to do my very best to pull you in! [evil grin]

To all who have participated on this Board since it's inception, to friends and acquaintances, to new voices and old voices now silent, I offer a toast. To Masq, whose inspiration and perspiration have made this Board and the ATPoBtVS-AtS sites into the best Buffy and Angel sites, and to those behind the scenes who help to keep it going. ~~Cheers~~ ...no... Buffy!

'Bit [who will be watching around every corner, because we are everywhere]

[> [> To Masq! -- Darby, with an appropriate beverage (Tab, anyone-?), 11:07:57 05/22/03 Thu

[> Istanbul -- Rahael, 23:53:52 05/21/03 Wed

Damn straight, Sophist this better not be a farewell!

I got a little teary when I read this post - wish I could do your compliments justice but the fact of the matter is I'm ill and I think, a little delusional. Double dosing two different cold medications probably wasn't a good idea. I'm a little high as well. So look over the reply with a forgiving eye.

I know you know that you're one of my very favourite posters, witty, Sophist-icated, playful, a poster who always makes me want to contribute and post (and possessed of a depth of knowledge about a frightningly large number of topics!). There's no discussion of Buffy that can't be improved by an aside about the 17thC!

I always imagined this board to have an invisible architecture, a grand, and yet simultaneous cosy aspect, with room after room, unlimited books - expansive, sprawling, a delight. Thank you for being such an important architect! But you gotta stick around, for this is no ordinary city. It needs us, the posters.

Did I mention that I had tea with Ete in Paris last weekend?

[> [> Lucky you! -- Sophist, 09:37:13 05/22/03 Thu

I envy your ability to flit to Paris. And your ability to have tea with Ete. And lots of other things about you as well.

[> First Slayer into the Hellmouth -- Darby, 05:35:13 05/22/03 Thu

I never would have had the Orbs of Nezzla'khan to initiate this - I worry when folks rattle off their lists at awards shows (who are they forgetting, and how mortified will they be when they realize it?), and I don't even know them or the people on their lists. Eeek, the pressure!

But now that you've stepped off the precipice, I can both reflect and echo your appreciation without demonstrating my senility.

And I understand the underlying sentiment - it's hard to believe that the Board will continue on its own inertia. It will evolve mimetically (hey, you knew I had to slip that in here!) into something...else. I hope to be here, and I hope to be able to discuss the wide range of topics, Whedonesque and other, with you.

And if you even find that the weight of paperwork is getting you down, you'd make a fine teacher. You hear what other people are saying and respond in terms of what they need - a gift for lawyer or instructor. And there's a tad less paperwork.

And for all you folks out there - even the ones that Sophist might have forgotten - um, I agree with what he said. I hope to tell many of you in person in...wow, a couple of weeks!

- Darby, still kinda in denial.

[> [> Arrgh! I did it again! -- Darby, 05:37:40 05/22/03 Thu

Memetically!!! It's become a mental tic!

And it's not helping my attitude toward mimes, which wasn't very good to begin with...

[> [> I feel like I missed an episode of my favorite show! -- d'Herblay, 07:03:57 05/22/03 Thu

And I can't even call up Dochawk for a tape!

And for all you folks out there - even the ones that Sophist might have forgotten - um, I agree with what he said. I hope to tell many of you in person in...wow, a couple of weeks!

So, this means you got your birth certificate, right?

[> [> [> Re: I feel like I missed an episode of my favorite show! -- Darby, 08:57:09 05/22/03 Thu

Well, probably.

We got Sara's from NYC, thanks to your source. Tomorrow she and I drive to the two different counties I still need, and at that point we'll be set. I hope.

[> "It doesn't matter where you go, 'cos-- there you are." -- OnM, 06:21:27 05/22/03 Thu

Back atcha, Sophist-- don't be a stranger. Your posts were faves of mine also. Best wishes whatever you decide.

Take care,

OnM

[> Dammit! -- ponygirl, 07:11:35 05/22/03 Thu

I just had to get up from my desk and run into the washroom. Something in my eye, I guess.

You are a lovely person Sophist and a wonderful writer. Thanks to you and everyone on your list.

[> The gratitude is mine. -- Arethusa, 07:24:00 05/22/03 Thu

Your responses made me a better poster and, I hope, a better person. I owe you a huge debt.

[> Thank you very much! -- KdS, 07:25:37 05/22/03 Thu

[> thanks for the great words and the great conversations -- tim, 07:40:17 05/22/03 Thu

Hopefully, this place will continue. I've learned more here about philosophy and literary criticism than I ever did in school.

--th

[> Thanks to you, Sophist! -- dream (sniff), 08:33:53 05/22/03 Thu

[> Please do consider returning -- Masq, 09:08:24 05/22/03 Thu

'Cause Buffy hasn't ended in our hearts.

But if you do leave permanently, goddess bless.

And thanks so much for sharing yourself with the board.

[> hold on there, sophist! we're gonna need a lawyer around here -- anom, 09:43:14 05/22/03 Thu

Who else will keep us to the straight & narrow, making sure we support our claims about the show, its characters, & what various things meant with actual evidence from the episodes or other sources of canon? I think I agreed w/you most of the time, but you said it more rationally than I probably would have.

And in that spirit:

"If I post this now, I can myself slip silently away without remorse."

This may be true, but the fact that you've posted it doesn't mean you have to slip away!

Besides, what about our remorse?

[> With posts like this, it's getting hard to live in DaNile -- Caroline, 09:45:19 05/22/03 Thu

Thanks also to you...here's hoping our paths meet again one day...

[> Some William How required -- Tchaikovsky, 10:16:12 05/22/03 Thu

The year is swiftly waning,
The summer days are past;
And life, brief life, is speeding;
The end is nearing fast.

When I was eight, I joined a church choir, which I was to be in for ten years, with two services weekly. This kind of commitment, both in length and density, leaves marks on you. I still remember very many of the hymns and anthems, and not only their tunes, but their words as well. I often like them just for their cadence, not even for their sentiment. But, being a mealncholy (read weird) child, the verse above was my favourite bit of poetry I found. It isn't genius, and it isn't really original. But the haunting little tune and the truism stabbed me right between ribs. Another thing I liked about it was that the first verse wasn't specifically Christian- the Christian perspective comes later.

Perhaps the most important thing about the hymn was that it represented the church itself and its choir. It was coming towards its end. And every October, when we sang it, I had a growing awareness, as I grew, of singing about the choir's own ending. It, co-incidentally, broke down the year I left to go to University, and therefore will always symbolise my childhood, the loss of growing up, and the nostalgia of youth in 4 (or, for the Advent Carol Service 8) part harmony.

Now with this board, I feel, to a certain extent, the same way. Not that it's that close to dying, just that it knows the sense of its own mortality. And it makes me sad. And so grateful for everyone's company over this last year or so, and previously in contributions now in the archives.

Thank you Sophist, and everybody, and to conclude the hymn:

The year is swiftly waning,
The summer days are past;
And life, brief life, is speeding;
The end is nearing fast.

The ever changing seasons
In silence come and go;
But Thou, eternal Father,
No time or change canst know.

O, pour Thy grace upon us,
That we may worthier be,
Each year that passes o'er us,
To dwell in heaven with Thee.

Behold the bending orchards
With bounteous fruit are crowned;
Lord, in our hearts more richly
Let heavenly fruits abound.

O, by each mercy sent us,
And by each grief and pain,
By blessings like the sunshine,
And sorrows like the rain.

Our barren hearts make fruitful
With every goodly grace,
That we Thy Name may hallow,
And see at last Thy face.

TCH

[> [> wait, does that mean... -- anom, 11:48:27 05/22/03 Thu

"Now with this board, I feel, to a certain extent, the same way. Not that it's that close to dying, just that it knows the sense of its own mortality."

...the board has shanshu'd?!

As soon as I wrote that, I thought, no, that wouldn't happen till "Angel" is over...but on 2nd thought, I think it's more fitting here & now.

[> [> [> Up for discussion next week: Is Voynak a serial killer? -- TCH, 13:53:34 05/22/03 Thu

[> Sophist, I really hope to still see you here... -- Dyna, 13:18:43 05/22/03 Thu

I can't tell you how much it pleases me to see my name on a list of people whose posts you've enjoyed. I've wished so often that I had more time to say the things I've thought about this year! When I come here with just a short time to read, your name is one I always look for, because I know what you say will be thoughtful and interesting. So I do very sincerely hope that you will stick around, or make cameo appearances from time to time.

I've been an "Angel" watcher since S2, at first more out of loyalty to "Buffy" than affinity, and though I enjoy it now in its own right, I've never felt the same urge to discuss it in depth. I'm hoping that will change, as I go back over some of the archived discussions here and get myself into a more Angel-centric frame of mind. It would be great if you were around to join in a little!

[> Re: A small voice of gratitude -- aliera, 19:02:18 05/22/03 Thu

Well, since I don't make scintillating posts I don't know quite how to take that, except to mention I'm cute too.
I have a lot I'd like to say to you Soph; but, I want to say over the next year or longer, not just here in this thread... and I find myself suddenly unwilling to compromise on that point. Of course, I can't promise that anything I say will be relevant to the thread it's in or won't include poetry and most likely it will contradict something I said elsewhere. That's been part of the fun of it.

Somehow I feel that the board has been more than a Buffy discussion board now for a long time. Buffy is simply the frame we use to allow us to talk about what really matters. And I and we want you to be here for it. Don't think we're done talking yet. ;-)

Yet if you come to feel differently I want that for you too. Not for me you understand, I don't want to lose you. But for you...

The Road goes ever on and on
Down from the door where it began.
Now far ahead the Road has gone,
And I must follow, if I can,
Pursuing it with eager feet,
Until it joins some larger way
Where many paths and errands meet.
And whither then? I cannot say.

Roads go ever ever on,
Over rock and under tree,
By caves where never sun has shone,
By streams that never find the sea;
Over snow by winter sown,
And through the merry flowers of June,
Over grass and over stone,
And under mountains of the moon.

[> [> Tolkien may not be a great poet, but that's a favorite of mine. Thanks.. -- Sophist, 20:46:03 05/22/03 Thu

[> [> And at the end of the book, there's another verse: -- Tchaikovsky, 05:03:49 05/23/03 Fri

This is my favourite bit of the poem; which is repeated several times through the books, with 'eager' in the first book being replaced by 'weary' in the last:

Still round the corner, there may wait
A new road, or a hidden gate
And though I oft have passed them by
The time will come at last, when I
Will take the hidden paths that run
East of the Moon, West of the Sun

TCH

In memory (Chosen spoilers, Angel S5 semi-WKCS spoiler) -- Alison, 19:43:33 05/21/03 Wed

This won't be as well worded as I would like but...Anya and Spike were amazing characters. Throughout the show, I came to feel as if I knew them. They may have died last night (though Spike's fate is uncertain) but I know thanks to this site, and my DVD collection, I can go back and revisit every time they made me love this show, and them, passionatly. I would like to take a moment to recognize their sacrifices, and those scenes that were so well writen and well acted that the character became real to me. In memory of those fallen in the final battle, I'd like to share my favorite Anya moments:

- Anya's attempt at hanging out with Xander in GD1
- Anya's seduction of Xander...so cute, and as Xander pointed out, oddly romantic
- pretty much anything she said in Pangs
- Her speech in The Body- even more touching in hindsight
- Her money dance in ATW
- Selfless- the episode is an entire Anya moment...it showed us just how amazing a character she really was
- And ofcourse, her speech about loving humanity in EoD

Honestly, theres never been a moment when Spike was on screen that I didn't love...my list was turning into a list of every episode he ever appeared in, so I'll just say that I adore Spike..and I hope that if other people contribute to this list, they can be more concise and less verbose when talking about him.
Let's take a minute to remember those who died...Spike, Anya..and even Amanda...

[> Oddly, my favorite Anya moments come from IWMTLY. -- sassette, 21:47:16 05/21/03 Wed

It took me a while to warm up to Anya. I was indifferent to her in S3 and couldn't stand her for most of S4. Then, in S5, she started growing on me. IWMTLY was the turning point for me; after that episode, she was my favorite character. I think it was her skill at insightful analysis that really sold me on her.

Re the Internet: "At first it was confusing. Just the idea of computers was like, 'Whoa, I'm eleven hundred years old. I had trouble adjusting to Lutherans.'"

Re Chex Mix: "Look at these tiny grain patties. They're woven. That's craftsmanship."

Those may not be Anya's finest moments, but they are the moments that made me love her.

[> Best Anya Moment EVER!!!! -- Mystery, 09:13:49 05/22/03 Thu

From Tough Love - Quotes from Psyche

Shot of Anya watching them, partly hidden behind a display case.
XANDER: Honey.
Anya whirls around to face him.
XANDER: Old saying. "A watched customer never buys."
ANYA: They would if they were patriotic.
Xander and Willow both put down their reading material, look at Anya, then look at each other.
XANDER: (to Willow) Okay, I'm goin' in. (to Anya) Patriotic?
ANYA: Yes. I've recently come to realize there's more to me than just being human. (proudly) I'm also an American.
Giles appears, holding a cup of tea.
GILES: Yes, I suppose you are, in a manner of speaking. You were born here -- your mortal self.
He walks past her.
ANYA: Well, that's right, foreigner. (Giles gives her a look) So I've been reading a lot about the good ol' us of A (she says "us" not "U.S."), embracing the extraordinarily precious ideology that's helped to shape and define it.
WILLOW: Democracy?
ANYA: Capitalism. The free market depends on the profitable exchange of goods for currency. (Xander and Willow exchange an amused look) It's a system of symbiotic beauty apparently lost on these old people. (turns to look back at the customers) Look at 'em. Perusing the shelves. Undressing the merchandise with their eyeballs (turns back to the others) all ogle, no cash. It's not just annoying, it's unAmerican.
Giles comes over to her and peers past her at the customers.
GILES: Appalling. Almost as if they no longer think money can buy happiness.
He walks off.
ANYA: Totally unAmerican. Oh, and you know what else is unAmerican? French people.
WILLOW: You don't say.
ANYA: From what I hear, they don't tip. Now, French old people? That's *really* the bottom of the barrel, you know? XANDER: Ahn, how's about we try being a bit less prejudiced, and a bit more inclusive? Not us, (indicates himself and Willow, then points to Anya) just you.
ANYA: Fine. I'm gonna make those fogeys buy things.

That whole scene to this day STILL makes me giddy and giggly. I'm giggling right now!!!

oh and in "Spiral"

ANYA: Ooh! Snacks! The secret to any successful migration.
Anya reaches into her backpack and pulls out a frying pan, reaches in again.
ANYA: Who's up for some tasty fried meat products?
She holds up a can of SPAM. No one looks interested.

Oh and who can forget her in "Checkpoint"

Anya: WILLOW'S A DEMON?!?!

lol...

I'm gonna miss Anya. She was the best character ever. D'Hoffryn better have given her her demon powers back at the last minute...:-)

[> My favorite Anya moment... -- Jacki, 12:42:57 05/22/03 Thu

...was definitely in "The Gift". I don't know why I like it so much, but here goes:

ANYA: And don't frighten me like tha-aah!

She shrieks as she sees something in another box. Xander comes over to look.

ANYA: God, who, who would put something like that there? Is this supposed to be some sort of sick joke?

She picks it up. It's a small toy bunny.

ANYA: I mean, things aren't bad enough! (pause) This is an omen.
XANDER: Hey, hey, shh. (rubs her shoulders)
ANYA: No, no, it's an omen. It's a higher power, trying to tell me through bunnies that we're all gonna die. Oh god.

And then, of course, I always get a chuckle out of:

XANDER: Anya ... you wanna marry me?

Anya stares at him a moment, then slaps him across the face.

[> [> Re: My favorite Anya moment... -- Chris, 17:41:49 05/22/03 Thu

For me it has to be in OMWF....Anya has just done the rock out number about bunnies, everyone has finished staring at her like she has two heads and are about to carry on with more normal (though still sung in all probability) suggestions when...
ANYA "...Or maybe midgets..."

chrisc

[> One of my Favorite Anya, Queen of Capitalism -- WickedBuffy, 18:15:11 05/22/03 Thu

One of my favorite Anya moments:

Christmas chicken feet
from Into the Woods (Season 5)

ANYA: Oh. Who ordered more chickens' feet? The ones we have aren't moving at all.

XANDER: That's generally what happens when you cut them off the chicken.

ANYA: I'm serious. (Opens jar) Maybe we could do a ... holiday promotion. (Takes out a chicken foot) One free with every purchase! (smiles)

GILES: Oh, yeah. (nostalgically) Dear holiday memories. Merry tykes by the fire, enjoying their new Christmas ... chicken feet.

WILLOW: Aw, holding them tight as they fall asleep. Painting their little toenails.

W&H (spoilers) -- Dirty Frank, 19:51:39 05/21/03 Wed

dunno if this has been mentioned, quite frankly not interested in reading through the bagillion posts since the finales. since its been confirmed that spike was the shanshu legend of the propehcies, why the hell wasnt w&h up spikes *ss like it was up angels for the past 4 years? how could they not know hes also a vamp with a soul? to think those smart b*stards have connections to "powers," have the ability to change time and life, and have access to more resources imaginable, they couldnt figure this out. all that wasted time stalking angel....

[> Ummmm confrimed by whom???? -- W&H, 21:34:20 05/21/03 Wed

Spike died, just like Angel did. He will be brought back to life, yes, but as a human? Not according to Minnear and Fury, but we'll see. Don't think the sanshu was Spike's. Remember the show is still called Angel.

[> Re: W&H (spoilers) -- luvthistle1, 00:47:47 05/22/03 Thu

W&H was hoping Angel would wear the amulet, and perhaps "turn human", or die. If you think about it, Angelus own the body. Angel is the cursed soul put upon Angelus. When The soul is removed it takes Angel a while to remember everything that "angelus " had done,once he is return. But Spike is the demon. Spike and the soul are one of the same.

[> If Spike Shanshus -- lunasea, 09:29:45 05/22/03 Thu

Which I have no problem with, as I have stated with 10 reasons above (mainly I don't want to be discussing souled Spike v souled Angel and which one REALLY deserves Buffy, like she is some prize to award, for the next year or so).

However Spike doesn't fit the prophecy: Wesley from "To Shanshu in LA" "He has to survive the coming darkness, the apocalyptic battles, a few plagues, and some - uh, several, - not that many - fiends that will be unleashed."

Coming Darkness? Sort of
Apocalyptic battles? sort of (not really plural with the soul)
Few plagues? Oops. We have a problem Houston
Fiends that will be unleashed: Not really, unless you count the Uber-vamps.

The prophecy also contains the blind seer kids. What role did they play? Why was Angel drawn to the scroll? The scroll is in two shows and is more than just Shanshu.

Spike could very well turn human, but not off of the prophecy of Aberjian.

Also the line Angel has when he leaves "I'm not getting any older" is so much better when considering what Cordy says when they find out about the prophecy "I hook up with the only person in history who ever came to LA to get older."

When Angel does get any older, that is when ME will let these two crazy kids be together. It is years down the road though, probably when Buffy is around 26.

[> [> a plague of SITs? a plague of Ubers? a plague of nerds? -- WickedBuffy j/k, 09:35:34 05/22/03 Thu

buffy in village voice literary supplement -- anom, 21:24:03 05/21/03 Wed

Today's Village Voice Literary Supplement has a review that manages to cover both Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Philosophy: Fear and Trembling in Sunnydale (edited by James B. South) & D. H. Lawrence's Studies in Classic American Literature, in the new complete edition from Cambridge.

AMERICAN DAEMONS
BY HOWARD HAMPTON
Buffy Amok in D.H. Lawrence's World

Nah, I'm not gonna copy the whole thing here--that would be copywrong! But here's a link to it.

The reviewer doesn't like the Buffy book much (prefers Reading the Vampire Slayer [out last year, edited by Roz Kaveney]). He has some interesting things to say about how "Buffy" fits into D. H. Lawrence's worldview (litview?). Some of what he says about "Buffy" seems kinda off to me, but I like his conclusion about the show's message about academia (follow the link & see for yourself!).

[> Is Buffy really "estranged from her body?" -- mamcu, 06:33:56 05/22/03 Thu

Well worth reading! Love the use of Lawrence's ideas, and this has some great insights into Buffy.

But one quibble--is Buffy really "estranged from her body?" Granted, sex in the Buffy-verse is well-known to lead to grief--and yet she risks it when she can.I think she breaks with all three lovers--Angel, Riley, and Spike--not form fear of sex hurting her, but because she sees the damage it does to them.

It's her body she most often uses as a weapon, true, but also her body that gives her connection with others (in S7, little--no?--sex for her, but she connects by holding hands with Willow, by holding Spike, and it's when she holds his hand that the fire begins to burn). When she's resurrected, she comes back in the flesh, not as a spirit. I see her as connected not only to other people by the end, but to her own body.

[> [> I don't think so, either. I'd nominate Faith for that one. -- WickedBuffy, 09:38:55 05/22/03 Thu

[> Definitely a good read! Thanks for the link -- ponygirl, 08:04:53 05/22/03 Thu

I've never been one for D.H. Lawrence myself but this was very interesting. I agree with mamcu that I've never seen Buffy as disconnected from her body. Emotions, yes, spirit, certainly. The Body seems to explore this disconnect between body and self, perhaps this is what the reviewer had in mind.

[> Goodness. That's my recommeded daily intake of adjectives satisfied. -- Tchaikovsky, 09:48:46 05/22/03 Thu

[> [> I had the same response! -- Caroline, 12:41:33 05/22/03 Thu

[> [> I think the article's author was trying to impress his "literary" friends. -- rowena, 15:16:56 05/22/03 Thu

[> [> [> But I thought all the literary people were right here? -- WickedBuffy, 17:49:50 05/22/03 Thu

[> [> [> [> LOL.. The REAL ones, yeah. Hence the quotation marks above. -- rowena, 19:44:32 05/22/03 Thu

[> Thei is appropriate - -- Darby, 12:13:44 05/22/03 Thu

As many folks assess their ties to and appreciation for this board, to see something from the outer world that doesn't measure up to most of the work done here is kind of fitting. Or am I wrong, Great Ignoramus in Matters Literary that I am, that many of the comparisons and allusions don't stand up to scrutiny very well?

And what the heck is a "tapeworm diet"? Should tapeworms be offended?

Angel as king (spoilers through "Home") -- Quentin Collins, 22:10:40 05/21/03 Wed

Angel taking over as the new head of the L.A. branch of W & H has some very interesting possibilities. In many ways he is now almost like a king. The L.A. branch of W & H probably has more resources and more real power than the vast majority of the nations in the world. The cold and sterile office building reminds me more than a little of a huge castle. I am sure that there will be more than a little bit of "palace intrigue" that goes on within its walls.

Now that Angel has king-like power, will he be able to harness it or will it corrupt him? W & H has always been evil to its core. Can a good man change all of that? For example, if Hitler had died just before WWII and a good man had become the head of Germany, could he have changed what was to come? Or would such a man have become powerless or even corrupted by the Nazi philosophical and social machinery that was already in place?

Angel has always been broody and guilt ridden. Now he is the head of an organization that has committed countless atrocities. Will he feel responsible for them? Will he feel that he has to make amends wherever and whenever he can for W & H's "sins" in Los Angeles? Does he have any responsibility for these actions or at least the responsibility to make whatever reparations are possible? Did American presidential administrations that followed slavery and the near genocidal campaign against Native Americans (yet had no hand in these things) have some responsibility for these things or at least have the responsibility to try to make amends? What about the post war governments in Germany, Japan, and Italy? The same questions of course will apply to whatever governments are eventually formed in Afghanistan and Iraq.

In many ways the large body of employees of W & H that Angel has inherited are like his subjects. Can he trust them? Will they be loyal to him? Can he earn their trust and loyalty? Does he share any core values with them?

How trustworthy is Lilah? How many strings does Angel's new "crown" have anyway? Will he have any real power or will he (perhaps even unknowingly) just become the puppet of W & H as a whole?

What will Angel's ruling strategy be? Ruling what amounts to a large and powerful corporation is not like running a small business. How much input will he allow those close to him to have? How much input should he allow them to have?

I feel as if the fifth season of "Ats" may be the most extraordinary yet. The new setting just seems ripe with Shakespearean possibilities.

[> Re: Angel as king (spoilers through "Home") -- CW, 05:48:56 05/22/03 Thu

Interesting take. Along these lines, I would add what happened to Lando Mollari on Babylon 5. He became King (actually Emperor) by making a deal with the bad guys thinking he could right many wrongs in his society. His debt to the bad guys was too great, and he simply became their slave. In the end it took all the inner strength he could muster to just look the other way, while others ended the evils of his reign.

I hope Spike doesn't Shanshu -- Charlemagne, 23:21:24 05/21/03 Wed

No offense but Angel has earned his humanity. Spike's soul doesn't have a "one true moment clause" and I doubt he really wants to be human.

My personal opinion

[> I hope he do. -- luvthistle1, 01:19:31 05/22/03 Thu

....if you think about the irony of it. Spike do not know about the "Shanshu", and although Spike "Do" want to be human, ( he has 'desire" while most vamps do not), he hate to be "powerless". to Spike being human, would mean, being like "Xander". so , him "shanshu" will be "ironic" and funny. Angel I also do not think Angel is ready to turn human, considering he turn it down in "I remember you", because he too, hate being powerless. he could not protect Buffy as human, nor will he be able to protect Cordy, as well. but if you think about it, regarless of which one turn human, the other one will feel last superior. If Spike turn human, Angel will feel cheated, because of all the things Spike will be able to do, that Angel cannot,and Spike will feel "powerless", because his new human status will mean he might have to look for Angel for protection. so, either way someone will feel they are getting the short end of the stick.

[> That's why I think he should Shanshu. -- sassette, 06:54:47 05/22/03 Thu

I think the fact that Spike doesn't want to become human is exactly why he should Shanshu, IMHO. "Chosen" indicated to me that ME was just as invested in the idea of Spike's redemption as many of us viewers were; I don't think they are going to throw all of that away by making him evil on AtS. But, I'm also not sure how or why they would justify bringing him back exactly as he was; it would really cheapen his sacrifice, I think. It makes sense that he would be human, because Spike, unlike Angel, had the vampire thing down. He figured out a way to reconcile the monster with the man, and how to have the man win out. He was, I think, at peace with himself as he was in the end. The next logical step for him, I think, is to deal with being human, which he has no peace with.

Angel, on the other hand, has a lot to do before he could or even should become human. He has to figure out how to reconcile Angel with Angelus and get over a lot of the split personality stuff he has going on. He has to accept that his current condition might be his for eternity, and figure out how to deal with it. And I think he perhaps has to realize that he might have been destined to be "special"; his role in the world might be to be a superhero, not to be a human.

Personally, I think that, in terms of "deserving," Spike probably deserves being human more than Angel, because only he was able to have his humanity overcome his instincts for evil even as a vampire. But, I'm not sure it's about what the characters deserve, but what they need to grow. And, in terms of character development, I think making Spike human and taking away Angel's hope for Shanshu would push both characters into interesting places.

[> [> Different Opinion -- Laura, 07:33:50 05/22/03 Thu

Okay I disagree with you on a few points. Spike without his soul didn't really overcome his instincts, the chip did. He couldn't properely express those violent feelings, leaving him with the obsessive ones (like for Buffy) and the more affectionate ones (which all vampires seem capable of). True, he didn't keep on plotting against the Scoobies but they were the only real companionship unless Harmony counts. Vampires are social creatures like humans after all.

Angel has worked longer than Spike to make amends. Angel can't help that he has a nasty dark side. When it is unleased there's absolutely nothing to keep it in check no soul and no chip.

Ever cared to think what you would do without a conscience?

[> [> [> Not exactly -- mamcu, 07:53:20 05/22/03 Thu

I have never been a Spuffy shipper, but I do admire Spike and find him a lot more interesting than Angel. The part that truly interests me is how he found his own way to goodness. The chip only prevented him from violence against humans--it didn't give him regret or remorse. He felt that strongly enough as a vampire to make the choice to seek a soul. Angelus has no conscience. That's why I agreed that Spike has found a way to join Spike and William, but Angel is still completely split off from Angelus. Remember, Angel never made the choice to gain a soul--it was given as a punishment for Angelus' evil.

[> [> [> [> Re: Not exactly -- Corwin of Amber, 08:27:37 05/22/03 Thu

> He felt that strongly enough as a vampire to make the choice to seek a soul.

Actually, I still think he sought a soul in hopes of having Buffy, in his twisted obsessive stalker way. I believe he pretty much stated that earlier in the season. Then he kind of realized that having a soul brings a lot of other stuff to the table.

>Remember, Angel never made the choice to gain a soul--it was given as a punishment for Angelus' evil.

Humans never made the choice to have a soul either. In that way, Angel is a lot more human than Spike.

If Spike does Shansu...it DOE'S negate Angel, and whats more, it negates Angel ON ANOTHER SHOW ON ANOTHER NETWORK. At that point...time to stop watching Angel.

I think it'd be more interesting to see Spike come back as a human...without a soul. :)

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Not exactly - again -- Rina, 08:35:10 05/22/03 Thu

"Actually, I still think he sought a soul in hopes of having Buffy, in his twisted obsessive stalker way. I believe he pretty much stated that earlier in the season. Then he kind of realized that having a soul brings a lot of other stuff to the table."

Spike felt remorse and horror for his attack against Buffy. Realizing he couldn't be a monster or a man, he decided to rectify this by regaining his soul. To give Buffy, he believed, the kind of man he felt that she deserved. He did this out of love for Buffy and guilt for his attempted rape. Being a "twisted obssessive stalker" had nothing to do with this.

This is not the first time he has ever felt remorse for anything. He felt it after Xander, Buffy and the others discovered his little affair with Anya. He felt guilty for Xander's sake, just as much as for Buffy's. And Dawn's visit to his crypt only increased his remorse. And he felt all of this . . . without a soul. Something that Angeleus has yet to achieve.

[> [> [> [> [> I feel so shallow (WK AtS Casting & Chosen Spoiler) -- fresne, 09:17:44 05/22/03 Thu

Gosh, and here I want Spike to become human because the actor isn't getting any younger. As a human, he could be on Angel for awhile, in a spin off or movies, if there are any.

Or you know, it's all Star Trek Insurection, umm...repeat after me, Data is aging on purpose.

On a dramatic front, it seems like the worst possible thing (barring all the other worst possible things that have already happened) that could happen to either Angel or Spike. Therefore do it.

I mean, for Angel to become human is a reward. It's end of the journey. His timer has dinged. Take that cookie out. For someone else to get the thing that is his freaking I'm the Champion reward. Oh, the brooding. The dark cloud of Achilles loitering in his tent.

For Spike, who thinks with his blood, prides himself as a fighter, it would be a painful step on the road to wherever the heck he's going. Why would becoming human be remotely desirable?

And as I think about it, such a twist would the reverse trend of characters getting more and more powerful. Everyone's gotten so indescribably cool on AtS that I forsee the need for a little dorkieness.

Plus, funny scenes where Spike tries to smoke, but hey new air breathing lungs. Heh, cough, hack, heh.

Actually, since I expect it, I doubt it will happen. Although, as soon as I heard that Spike was crossing over as it were, I figured him for dying in the BtVS finale. Sometimes it's hard to guess just what kind of evil god Joss is. Grr. Argh.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Agree...LOL! Although..(WK AtS Casting & Chosen Spoiler) -- s'kat, 09:56:30 05/22/03 Thu

Oh, fresne...I really do love your posts.

And I completely agree.

On a dramatic front, it seems like the worst possible thing (barring all the other worst possible things that have already happened) that could happen to either Angel or Spike. Therefore do it.

Ah the irony. James Marsters has said the worst two things they could do to his character would be to give Spike a soul or make him human. I have this odd feeling Whedon was cackling when Marsters stated that. The fans said the same thing. Whedon cackles louder. And the writer in me whole-heartedly agrees with Whedon - do the worste thing.

Actually, since I expect it, I doubt it will happen. Although, as soon as I heard that Spike was crossing over as it were, I figured him for dying in the BtVS finale. Sometimes it's hard to guess just what kind of evil god Joss is. Grr. Argh.

Ah the statment that is going to make a spoiler trollop out of me for Angel this summer.

The thing is - it just makes such perfect sense narrative wise. I mean if you read the text in both shows - and the fact that the writers deliberately connected the two shows this season with important cross-overs...leads me to believe that they are going to do it.

Heck Whedon splatters Chosen with hints regarding it.

Go back to Shanshu in LA - Cordelia miss hears Weseley's speech and pronounces it as sans shoes? Do you mean without shoes? She askes.

In Chosen - we have Spike dreaming of drowing in footwear.
The image in LMPTM of Anne without shoes looking somewhat human when she's staked. Again in Chosen - Buffy's desire to go shopping for shoes.

Angel is the one who brings the amulet to Buffy and wholeheartedly expects to be the one to wear it in the final battle of Sunnydale by her side. Just as the oracles prophesied in I Will Always Remember You. Remember he was the only one with a soul back then.

So I think Whedon decided to twist it. Give Spike the shanshue - this would torture the heck out of both characters and provide all sorts of great stories and
comedy.

The naysayers say it won't happen because it's Angel's show, but that is actually the best reason for it to happen - if it happened to Angel - the show would be over more or less. But if it happens to someone else - Angel has to deal with it and deal with the possibility that it may never happen for him and/or whether he really wants it too.
Also the fact that Angel the Series has always been the more adult and darker of the two shows - more noir than gothic in its leanings and hence less likely to either redeem or reward it's anti-hero.

OTOH...the obviousness of it...makes me question the validity. Is it too obvious? Too expected? In which case is it a mislead? I've learned not to trust the obvious in these shows.

If they do it? It could be brilliant with both comedic and dramatic potential and would make Spike the perfect dramatic/comedic foil. It could also be really bad. Depends on how it's written. But then everything does...doesn't it?

good post fresne.

SK

[> I almost hope he does (WKCS for AtS season5) -- lunasea, 08:58:32 05/22/03 Thu

1. It will annoy Angel and jealous Angel is still my favorite Angel to watch (next to naked-in-bed-with-Buffy Angel)

2. It may cause Angel to think about pulling some strings at WR&H to at least deal with the curse, if it hasn't already been done. (I think it has been offered with Lilah's comment about "handling" Buffy)

3. Won't have to watch JM fight any more.

4. What will Spike contribute to the cause now is much more interesting than just another fighter in Angel's arsenal.

5. Won't have to compare souled Spike to souled Angel. That is reason enough to have Spike come back human.

6. Will make it much more interesting when Buffy sees him again.

7. After Darla came back human, a human Spike is going to be met with severe reservations by everyone. Humor will ensue.

8. We will find out what human Spike will wear and be called. What will his hair look like? Will he lose the accent that he puts on?

9. Makes his dream about footwear more interesting. Drowning =ocean; footwear = shoe. ocean shoe o shanshu
Also makes where he got is soul more interesting.

10. Angel will go back to being unique and the writers won't have to worry about fitting Angel and Spike in the same car.

[> Agreed -- Miss Edith, 09:48:45 05/22/03 Thu

But not because I think one vampire has earned the reward more than the other. I just prefer both Angel and Spike as vampires. Spike is happy and at peace with being a vampire. I have never thought of being ordinary and human as a great reward. Angel does apparently so more power to him (although interestingly enough he did reject humanity in IWRY because he wanted to keep fighting).

I don't see being special as a curse. Spike should accept and embrace being a vampire, as should Angel. I would rather wait for the finale of Angel before we have any shanshuing.

Update on Honorificus (The Most Spectacularly Ill-Behaved One) -- HonorH, 23:40:20 05/21/03 Wed

You'll be glad to know we did eventually get her calmed down last night. Thanks to those who donated furniture and tranq guns. We hit her with three darts before she finally stopped throwing appliances around, and then the minions and I poured vodka down her throat until she was making these "nung-nung" sounds. Finally wrestled her into her favorite jammies and sat her down in front of the TV with a bowl of chocolate-covered raisins and some reruns of "The Osbournes".

Anyway, today we've been feeding her Percocet-laced goat meat and whiskey and letting her watch all manner of daytime TV while we cleaned up the apartment. I think that by tomorrow, she should be coherent enough to write up a review. Thanks to all who expressed concern!

[> Oh my Godess! It's a Slayerificus! I knew there'd be consequences! -- cougar, fleeing, 23:47:14 05/21/03 Wed

[> But that's the way we love her best! -- fawning minion, 06:05:00 05/22/03 Thu

[> Aw. She's so cute when she goe's into one of her homicidal rages. -- cjl, 07:18:26 05/22/03 Thu

[> Fire extinguisher? check. Comfort food? check. Dark socks with dress shoes? check. -- pr10n (ready if you need back up), 07:43:26 05/22/03 Thu

[> How much do I love that Her Spectacularly Sinfulness has... -- Haecceity, 10:04:55 05/22/03 Thu

...favourite jammies! Do tell, have they got little Gorash demon feet? Or nummy human sushi print? Is there a woobie, too?

Just dying to know (and probably dying to find out),

---Haecceity

Current board | More May 2003