May 2003 posts

Wesley's British Accent -- Rina, 12:52:59 05/16/03 Fri

Is the actor who plays Wesley, British? There is something odd about his accent.

[> Russian, but he speaks with no accent when he's off camera -- VampRiley, 12:54:45 05/16/03 Fri

[> [> You mean he speaks with an *American* accent, don't you VR? -- Caroline, 18:12:49 05/16/03 Fri

[> [> [> Which part of America? We're crawling with home-grown accents. -- Archiloih, 19:21:23 05/16/03 Fri

Archiloih: slow drawl on the "arc", highpitched squeal on the "hil" and a rumbling grunt on the "oi".

*The "h" is silent, except in parts of Canada and Puerto Rico.

[> [> [> [> Doesn't really matter. The point is he has an accent, as do we all. -- Caroline, 12:48:09 05/17/03 Sat

[> [> [> [> [> Disagree. There is such a thing as "no accent". -- Archiloih, 19:03:37 05/17/03 Sat

[> [> [> [> [> [> There is? How so? I can't imagine an accentless voice -- O'Cailleagh, 20:16:29 05/17/03 Sat

Unless you mean the type of accent a person develops when they move around a lot, but that is still an accent, even if it is hard to define or identify.

O'Cailleagh

[> [> [> [> Suburbs of Philadelphia, PA -- VR, 20:49:51 05/17/03 Sat

[> [> [> Well, I am an American -- VR, 19:36:11 05/16/03 Fri

So, you'll understand how I think some of us, not including myself, don't have an accent.

Bloody hell.

[> What do you find odd about his accent? -- Scroll, 13:12:09 05/16/03 Fri

I've always thought AD was remarkably convincing as an Englishman. Apparently he's lived half his life in the UK, so he actually had an English accent for many years. It's kinda uppercrust and cosmopolitan. Very sexy :)

[> [> What about Caleb's -- magnolia blossom, 13:42:53 05/16/03 Fri

What about Caleb's accent? Anybody besides me find it hokier than mint juleps and Aunt Jemima? I'm Southern so it really grates.

[> [> [> Re: What about Caleb's -- monsieurxander, 14:42:57 05/17/03 Sat

I've noticed that a lot of Southerners who watch the show either get offended or roll their eyes at the southern accents on the show (Caleb, Eve, etc). We are all under the impression that everyone in the South, from Georgia to Mississippi to Texas, sounds the same. It just isn't so. There are many different dialects in many different regions. My grandparents, for example, would probably sound "hokey" to you. Hell, they sound hokey to me. It doesn't change the way they speak.

Just my two cents.

[> [> [> [> Song of the South -- Random, 16:15:06 05/17/03 Sat

Quite, Monsieur Xander. I was born in Mississippi (Vicksburg) and have lived in Alabama, Tennessee and North Carolina (and spent an inordinate amount of time in 'weeziana) and would have to note that, to a Southerner's ear, the differences in the accents are often profound. Southern accents aren't, any more than Southern attitudes or Southern personalities, monolothic and uniform. I can tell the difference between a Bostonian accent and an up-state New York one, and the physical separation between those two is considerably less than between, say, Arkansas and Georgia (not that I personally consider Arkansas part the South, but...) Not only that, but I have no trouble distinguishing between western Mississippi and Mississippi Delta, or rural Alabama and rural Georgia. Even more pointedly, I can usually spot the difference between the age brackets as well (usually, not always -- I have a cousin who's a year younger than me but has an old-timey accent that she acquired from god-knows-where and is quite the accent that Griffith actors would have spoken in, had BoaN been a talkie.

Having said that, though, I find Caleb's accent forced. Not necessarily improbable, but it sounds, to my ear, like a caricature of the accent he is trying to replicate. Why? Dunno, except that he accentuates various nasals and drawls a little too much, as if trying to convince us that he's really speaking in a Southern accent. For a prime example of rural Mississippi accents, watch the highly-underrated accents of "O Brother Where Art Thou." I have friends -- mostly from North Carolina -- who have savaged the accents in that movie, especially Clooney's. They are, IMHO, dead wrong. Yes, sometimes you can tell that some of the actors are trying a little too hard, but they are often dead-on. Clooney's accent, in most cases, is quite a good impression of a supercilious, overly-enunciated Mississippi middle-class accent. Holly Hunter's is perfect...I don't know, but I would bet she's from the South, though probably not Mississippi.

Anyhoo, accents are a tricky thing, and the problem with Southern accents is that most of the country feels quite free to speculate and speak authoritatively on them without having sufficient immersion in the actual culture. Then, a fair percentage of the country feels just as free to pass judgment on the South's culture itself without sufficient/any eyewitness evidence, so that's no surprise, really. Hollywood sometimes has to make do...and sometimes pull out winners, frequently pulls out mere burlesque.

[> [> [> [> [> Night of the Hunter -- Eryn, 17:06:34 05/17/03 Sat

I assumed Caleb was sort of "borrowed," or inspired by, the movie "Night of the Hunter." The character is remarkably similar to Robert Mitchum's Rev. Harry Powell in that movie. Mitchum also spoke in a kind of Hollywood-goes-South accent, ie. the kind of Southern accent that only exists in the movies. When depicting a crazed preacher it seems like most actors/writers opt for that kind of speech.

Eryn

[> [> What about Caleb's -- magnolia blossom, 13:45:54 05/16/03 Fri

What about Caleb's accent? Anybody besides me find it hokier than mint juleps and Aunt Jemima? I'm Southern so it really grates.

[> [> Re: What do you find odd about his accent? -- Mourning the end of the Buffyverse, 14:47:08 05/16/03 Fri

He's not Russian, he's from Seattle. I went to prep school with him in New Hampshire. He's very nice (at least his teenage-self was very nice). He'll be at our 20th high school reunion next weekend, so I'll get to compare (and maybe meet Aly too).

[> [> American BtVS/AtS cast who lived half of her life in UK was -- Sang, 00:38:15 05/17/03 Sat

Juliet Landau (Dru) who moved with her parents (actor Martin Landau) to UK when she was a child. She grew up there and was studying acting and ballet in London until she moved back to US when she was 18.

[> [> [> That doesn't guarantee anything -- KdS, 03:10:41 05/17/03 Sat

Because I have yet to meet an English viewer who doesn't find JL's accent nails-on-a-blackboard horrible.

[> [> [> [> Re: That doesn't guarantee anything -- Sang, 09:51:13 05/17/03 Sat

Yes, I heard.. Isn't that ironic? Other than ASH in both of show, she should be the one who used correct 'English' most of her early life. She grew up and educated in London and she had been using theateric accent of London school on the stage. I guess she was acting a crazy lady who supposed to talk in very annoying way.

[> [> [> [> [> Actually, I had a little revelation about JL lately -- KdS, 14:18:07 05/17/03 Sat

I was watching an old edition of a UK music TV show a little while ago, and I noted a remarkable similarity between JL's performance as Dru and PJ Harvey's stage movements and persona circa To Bring You My Love. I'm wondering whether JL was trying to go for a mixture of Cockney and Harvey's faint Dorset accent, which is actually a very implausible mixture in terms of UK culture and geography, and is very difficult to do without going into stereotyped Mummerset.

[> [> [> [> Drusilla/Nancy -- monsieurxander, 14:51:26 05/17/03 Sat

Marti Noxon has been quoted as saying that Spike and Drusilla were originally conceived as the vampire versions of Sid and Nancy.

I always got the impression that Drusilla's exaggerated accent was supposed to add to her being annoying, because any Sex Pistols enthusiast will tell you that Nancy Spungen is an annoying beast. In the movie Sid and Nancy, Chloe Webb portrays her with an exaggerated New York accent. It adds to the annoying nails-on-blackboard personalities of both of these characters.

So yeah, I figured Drusilla's accent was intentional, and if not, a happy coincidence.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Drusilla/Nancy -- Miss Edith, 16:22:48 05/17/03 Sat

I adore Drusilla, the only thing that annoys me about her accent is the way she prounounces "Pretty Spioke". I have to admit I do find that grating. I'm also not keen on SMG's pronounciation of "Okay". Kind of irrelevent but hey if we're discussing accents.

[> [> [> [> Re: That doesn't guarantee anything -- O'Cailleagh, 17:53:59 05/17/03 Sat

Hey! I love JL's accent...its not very good, obviously, but I love it! Ooh, and I'm Welsh-not quite English, but very close!(Geographically speaking!)
It always makes me think of Eliza Dolittle...which is just luvverly.

O'Cailleagh

[> Re: Wesley's British Accent -- HonorH, 15:38:21 05/16/03 Fri

Actually, I believe Alexis Denisof is of Russian descent, but he lived in the US most of his life. Then he spent a few years in England, where he picked up his English accent. From interviews he's given, Denisof is now "Americanizing" Wesley's accent, giving it a harder edge that he thinks suits the character more now than the high British accent he originally used.

[> [> Re: Wesley's British Accent -- Rina, 15:40:27 05/16/03 Fri

The accent sounds like what many would call "BBC" - mainly a British accent that is not that genuine and allows Americans to understand it.

[> [> [> Re: Wesley's British Accent -- Indri, 16:09:28 05/16/03 Fri

A BBC accent is not ""not genuine" it's just not a regional UK one. My own accent is now BBC, whereas I used to have a fairly strong regional accent, because I've lived outside the UK for more than a dozen years. I've moved toward it unintentionally because it does help people understand me abroad. I find Wesley's accent change entirely convincing.

I have known some people brought up with BBC accents but they've mostly been upper middle class South Australians, oddly enough.

[> [> [> Just my opinion but... -- Scroll, 09:45:38 05/17/03 Sat

I don't think Wesley's accent is BBC. Neither is Giles'. They both began with fairly upper-crust accents, though not entirely aristocratic, and they've slowly evolved to be a little bit more "American" over years spent in California. Now, the Watcher defector in "Home" had a BBC accent, I believe, but I don't know if that means it isn't genuine, as Indri says.

[> [> *Actually, I believe Alexis Denisof is of Russian descent* -- Exactly -- VR, 19:38:35 05/16/03 Fri

That kind of Russian.

[> Re: Wesley's British Accent -- Miss Edith, 16:04:44 05/16/03 Fri

I read an interview in which Alexis admits that it isn't exactly a typical British accent. But he pointed out Buffy is aired in America, and therefore it was geared towards Americans somewhat. ASH does the same aiming to sound slightly posher in order to fit the image of typical Brits. Personally I think Alexis does a nice job with the upper-crust accent. When listening to his American accent on the DVDs I detected something slightly smurf-like and sqeaky about it. Like an extreme example of the way American accents feature talking through your nose. Might just be me though *shrug* He should stick to the Biritish accent IMO.

The SiTs have awful accents. What always bugs me is on American tv English people are always either Cockney's or posh. How about some incomprehensible geordie accents lol.

[> Re: Wesley's British Accent -- Miss Edith, 16:05:57 05/16/03 Fri

I read an interview in which Alexis admits that it isn't exactly a typical British accent. But he pointed out Buffy is aired in America, and therefore it was geared towards Americans somewhat. ASH does the same aiming to sound slightly posher in order to fit the image of typical Brits. Personally I think Alexis does a nice job with the upper-crust accent. When listening to his American accent on the DVDs I detected something slightly smurf-like and sqeaky about it. Like an extreme example of the way American accents can be nasel and feature talking through your nose. Might just be me though *shrug* He should stick to the Biritish accent IMO.

The SiTs have awful accents. What always bugs me is on American tv English people are always either Cockney's or posh. How about some incomprehensible geordie accents lol.

"and Mr (and Ms.) Evangelist says..." ("Dirty Girls/Inside Out" - no later spoilers) -- KdS, 13:53:56 05/16/03 Fri

First of all a public service announcement - from next Thursday Sky One appear to be repeating the whole of American Gothic at 22:00 on Thursday nights, after AtS. Trust me, it is superb. So dark and misanthropic it makes AtS look like Charmed, but well worth watching if you don't mind that.

Dirty Girls

Mixed, very mixed. Caleb is a thundering cliche composed of a mixture of Night of the Hunter, old Nick Cave records, and probably several more disreputable horror films, but truly frightening in the climactic massacre (even though it was cut to ribbons by sodding Sky). He really is simply repellant, with no redeeming features whatsoever, but I believe that it's deliberate and fits in with the season's general tone of desparation. I can't help wondering if, given that Warren and Andrew have both been portrayed as demystified Spikes, if Caleb might be intended as a demystified Angelus, shorn of all the dark charisma and romance. One slightly disturbing fact for UK viewers is that from certain angles in the opening scene, he looks scarily like Ardal O'Hanlon as Dougal in Father Ted.

As far as the debates over Buffy's tactics go, it was questionable whether to charge into the winery, but I can't hold her entirely responsible for the debacle. The problem, as I see it, is that she was so grateful to have a physical enemy to face that she raced in to release some tension. I would say that Caleb is the single strongest entity Buffy has ever faced, except possibly the ascended Richard Wilkins. Even Glory couldn't knock a Slayer senseless with a single, not particularly effortful punch. Maybe she should have done more reconnaisance, but you can't go into every encounter planning to meet a hyperpowered adversary. Two Slayers and a highly combat-trained vampire should have been enough to deal with most threats. Even spying wouldn't have given them much warning, unless Caleb suddenly decided to bench-press a couple of barrels just to show off. The problem I do see is with everyone else's reactions - as soon as Caleb knocked Buffy across the room there should have been an extremely rapid retreat. Xander's speech about Buffy to the others is, of course, horribly ironic given what then happens to him.

Faith drew mixed reactions here. There definitely seemed to be something up with her voice - I suspect a throat infection rather than any deliberate decision. Yab felt that the Faith/Spike scene was forced, but I don't think it was anything too implausible. I am really happy to see the Who are You? conversation between Faith and Spike dealt with - I still believe it would be very ironic if that was what had first stimulated Spike to view Buffy with a sexual interest. If the sole topic of her casual conversation in future is sex, I will be a little more disturbed. The revelation of a naked Spike under the bedclothes was incredibly, unintentionally comical - the careful arrangement, the cigarette, the come-hither gaze... unless he was trying to awe Faith with his sexuality, which would throw another unflattering light on his character. Andrew's description of Faith as a killer who you shouldn't turn your back on is remarkably ironic, given how much that warning could apply to him. I did enjoy the wary, not over-hostile relationship between the two Slayers.

One pop culture shout-out - Caleb's admission to murdering a woman in Knoxville is probably a reference to the famous folk murder ballad The Knoxville Girl, which I believe influenced Nick Cave's Where the Wild Roses Grow.

Inside Out

Simply tragic. It is clear, I believe, that we are not to take Skip's claims that all the events of the past seasons were manipulated at face value, given that it is contrasted with the Connor/Darla scenes which so blatantly stress free will. I am still trying to work out the implications of Skip deliberately taking a dive in Billy, unless it was simply that he was hired by one side to guard Billy and then bribed by W&H to allow him to be rescued. Wherever the responsibility lies between the script, the direction and David Denham, it was really frightening and effective to have Skip's manner after his villainy was unmasked so relatively indistinguishable from his manner in earlier eps.

This ep shows Connor descending to true villainy, but still leaves one feeling more pity for him than anything else. He simply doesn't have enough experience of humanity to really see through Cordelia's lies, although it was an incredibly effective stroke to show the dead girl's face appearing to him as Darla's. It was a wonderful choice as well to have Darla so sinister at the beginning of the scene, with her lines about seeing the pain and fear of the sacrificial victim so often in the past. I must admit that the episode has decided me to rule out the theory that we're seeing the real Cordelia under the influence of Jasmine's mojo and believing that she's doing the right thing. Even in that situation, I don't see Cordelia as capable of the malice we saw in this ep.

One more reference to a previous episode - the bloody handprint on Cordelia's belly matching that on Darla's during one of the early S3 eps, when she saw the shaman - forget which ep.

On the other characters, I gain new respect for Gunn, quietly walking back into the Hyperion without a hint of what he and Gwen actually got up to. Admittedly he came back to a high-tension situation, but I get the impression he wouldn't have said anything anyway. I also think Angel's line about Lilah's death mattering because Wes cared for her as the closest we're going to get to any formal reconciliation between them.

If you reply to this message, don't expect a fast response - I'm trying posting my reactions before I go to bed to see if it makes me sleep any better the night after my ME fix.

[> Re: "and Mr (and Ms.) Evangelist says..." ("Dirty Girls/Inside Out" - no later spoilers) -- Scroll, 13:55:11 05/16/03 Fri

One more reference to a previous episode - the bloody handprint on Cordelia's belly matching that on Darla's during one of the early S3 eps, when she saw the shaman - forget which ep.

Hey, wow! I didn't catch that at all. Seriously, this season has been so incredible at tying things together from past seasons and episodes. Not so much the shout-outs on Buffy (like Invisible Girl), but real connections that make plots and prophecies and phrases flow together like a tapestry.

I must admit that the episode has decided me to rule out the theory that we're seeing the real Cordelia under the influence of Jasmine's mojo and believing that she's doing the right thing. Even in that situation, I don't see Cordelia as capable of the malice we saw in this ep.

I think you're mostly right, though I do think Cordelia has been more there, in her own body, than we might have realised. I actually don't think Jasmine started influencing Cordelia until after Cordy and Connor slept together. The look on Cordy's face the morning after was a purely human "oh, sh*t!" and not any expression a cunning but tranquil Jasmine would ever have.

[> Preserving this thread untill I've had some sleep... -- yabyumpan, 15:40:59 05/16/03 Fri

..I haven't slept for about 2 days so I don't think my fingers will type what i want to say but I do want to comment on 'Inside out'.

[> Preserving this thread some more -- Masq, 07:29:23 05/17/03 Sat

Is Martha Stewart a vampire? -- lost_bracelet, 14:09:51 05/16/03 Fri

(The last message I posted just inspired me to compose this one.)

Evidence that Martha Stewart is a vampire:

1. First and foremost, she's evil and has no soul. This is the most obvious evidence.

2. She is an insomniac and stays up all night.

3. It's easy to imagine her adding a stalk of celery to a glass of blood, calling it a real bloody mary.

4. Buffy could kick her ass.

5. She probably hired Wolfram & Hart to get her out of the insider trading thing.

6. She doesn't go to other people's houses because she doesn't get invited (and therefore can't walk in). So, instead, everyone always has to come to her house.

7. The reason she can go outside to work in her garden during the day is that she met an evil demon and traded some live Araucana chickens for the Gem of Amarra.

8. If you tried to kill her with a wooden stake, she'd grab the stake away from you and show you how poorly it was whittled. Then she'd proceed to demonstrate how to properly whittle a wooden stake, but she wouldn't give it back to you.

9. She's the one who decorated Angel and Spike's fancy crypts. (Can't you tell?) She has a gigantic crypt of her own in Westport, Connecticut, which she calls "Turkey Hell Farm."

10. Couldn't you just hear her saying, "Sucking blood: It's a Good Thing!"?

[> Nope, Martha Stewart is a witch -- MaeveRigan, 14:28:59 05/16/03 Fri

Anya stated this "fact" definitively in 6.10 "Wrecked":

XANDER: Really?

ANYA: Of course. Nobody could do that much decoupage without calling on the powers of darkness.

[> [> Oh, my goodness! I completely forgot about that. But, in any case... -- lost_bracelet, 14:57:54 05/16/03 Fri

...I disagree with Anya. I still think MS is a vampire.

[> so .. er .. who is Martha Stewart again? -- MsGiles, not ignorant, just 'culturally challenged', 15:02:17 05/16/03 Fri

[> [> America's 'Mrs Knows everything about homemaking' on TV -- CW, 15:07:16 05/16/03 Fri

and made her self rich in the process.

[> [> I can't tell if that's sarcastic or just a sign of solid mental health! -- lost_bracelet, 15:09:48 05/16/03 Fri

But if you're really curious, check out:

Martha Stewart Living

And watch the movie on NBC, Monday at 9 PM.

[> [> [> neither or maybe both, it's living in the UK that does it -- MsGiles, 15:43:33 05/16/03 Fri

[> I believe you have thoroughly insulted Martha Stewart to the very highest degree!! -- WickedBuffy, 17:22:23 05/16/03 Fri

Big Mistake.

I spent several years minionterning for Martha as a junior associate back in '94. Got to know her pretty wwell. Still have the scars to prove it.

If she heard you calling her a "vampire" or a "witch", your skin would be woven into matching carseat covers within .02 seconds! With just enough left over for a small, but attractive beaded purse.

Martha is a pure Demon (capital "D"). The kind the Slayers believed were run off the earth eons ago.

Using her saavy crafting skills and no small amount of black magic, she's been able to conceal her true identity for thousands of years. (Look at her hands, are those the hands of a human?)

I feel honored to have had her as a mentor. One of my fondest memories of Martha included the gardener, a large blowtorch, maple syrup and several buckets of homemade kerosene. What fun! Or the time we decoupaged Connie Chung to the side of Marthas SUV and drove it into the neighbors pool. When they were hosting the annual Cub Scout swim meet! ::sigh::

I'm already feeling sorry for those of you who posted the vampire and witch ideas - you think the First Evil is the only ancient thing that sees all?

FE fondly calls Martha "Grandma".

[> [> Hey, did you have a part in writing _Just Desserts_? -- lost_bracelet, 18:05:48 05/16/03 Fri

Great book. Which interviewee were you?

;-)

[> [> [> I was several of them ... shhhhh };> -- WickedGlueGun, 18:39:01 05/16/03 Fri

Btw, did you know that those books make an excellent retaining wall if you want to plant flowers on a troublesome hillside?

1) Purchase 60 or 70 of copies of JUST DESSERTS for full retail price from your local bookseller.

2) Spray paint them dark grey (or any color you favor). Puce makes a stunning statement also.

3) Stack them in a semicircle on the slope, about 4 books high. Using a gluegun, secure books to each other firmly.

4) Go inside. Don the "I Love Martha" apron you recently purchased at KMart. Bake several trays of persimmon sugar cookies while waiting for the glue to dry.

4) Return to yard. Fill empty area within semi-circle of wall with good garden soil, creating a level area on the slope. Wave at the neighbors.

5) Plant your favorite flowers or shrubs in your freshly created garden space. (Order your nursery needs from MarthaStewart Online for the best results.)

6) Be sure to plant a few sprigs of trailing rosemary every few inches to create a stunning final touch to your home-made rock garden.

7) Enjoy. It's a very good thing.

[> [> [> [> 60 or 70 copies? You getting royalties? ;-) -- lost_bracelet, 01:17:48 05/17/03 Sat

[> [> Hey, did you have a part in writing _Just Desserts_? -- lost_bracelet, 18:06:13 05/16/03 Fri

Great book. Which interviewee were you?

;-)

[> [> [> (This double-posting thing is very annoying. My apologies.) -- lost_bracelet, 18:07:11 05/16/03 Fri

[> Re: Is Martha Stewart a vampire? -- Laura, 22:32:23 05/16/03 Fri

If she were a vampire it would expain a lot of things and she's too strange to be a witch and thus human.

[> [> Yes, I agree. It certainly does explain a lot. -- lost_bracelet, 01:19:06 05/17/03 Sat

[> Now I know who she is (thanks guys) -- MsGiles, 02:21:46 05/17/03 Sat

I don't think we have one of them over here in the U of K. Carol Vorderman? Homes but not cooking. Delia Smith? cooking but not homes. Nigella Lawson (sexy cooking)? Laurence Llewellyn Bowen (sexy homes)? Maybe if you squished them all together..

Maybe there's only one at a time. 'Into every generation ..' So if someone kills her, there's bound to be another one in waiting somewhere, maybe Iceland (Bjork seems a bit suspiciously non-aging). I wonder who her Watchers are, or did she decoup them.

On the other hand, if she's a vampire, who could have sired her? Terence Conran? Zandra Rhodes? (come to think of it, Spike mentioned something about having eaten a decorator ..)

Love - Poll -- Rina, 15:05:35 05/16/03 Fri

Question: How many of you actually believe that Buffy does not love Spike? And how many of you do feel that she does?

[> Ambivalent. -- lost_bracelet, 15:11:34 05/16/03 Fri

I think Angel is the true love of her life. Spike was way too easy. But, still, she feels indebted to his loyalty and appreciates his love for her. Plus, he's probably really good in bed. Maybe even better than Angel.

[> She loves him... but that doesn't mean she should be with him. -- Rochefort, 15:26:56 05/16/03 Fri

Whereas Angel is just stupid.

[> [> She should love him -- mamcu, 20:44:17 05/16/03 Fri

because he is a good man and he loves her, and understands her, and is really hot and can really kick butt. But that doesn't mean she does. To quote Woody Allen: "The heart wants what the heart wants."

[> love, this that and the other (s6 perpective) -- MsGiles, 15:31:19 05/16/03 Fri

I've been feeling for a while that someone needs to get out there and get Buffy and Spike's definitions of love down on paper and get them to sign it.

Buffy loves Xander, she says so a lot. And Dawn and Willow, and extended family generally. But I guess that's not what we're talking about. She means she likes them and trusts them. She also says she likes Spike, and fancies him, but doesn't trust him, and doesn't believe in this grand romantic passion thing he seems to be into. So by her definition she doesn't love him. And who else's can you go by?

Buffy wants family (I don't mean she wants a hubby & 3 kids, but that she wants a family type support network. Commitments). Buffy's not loving Spike is about not wanting to be family with him, either in her world or his. Because he's got no interest in that. For Spike family's's not an issue, at least not in s6. He lives for emotion. At the moment Buffy gives him the emotion so he needs her. So by his definition he loves her.

Love isn't an absolute. What the word means changes with the person and the context. I think that's part of the problem and why the 'does she love him' discussions go round in circles.

[> [> I *loved* this -- lunasea, 08:31:16 05/17/03 Sat

[> Yes, but not in the way he hoped for. -- HonorH, 15:34:24 05/16/03 Fri

I think Spike has risen to the level of "trusted friend and confidant" with Buffy. She loves him for his unwavering support of and belief in her. Romantic love, however--I just don't think she's ready for that with him. Their history is too complicated, and things have moved way too fast. Given time, though? I can't believe I'm saying this, after so many years of being staunchly anti-Spuffy, but given time, I think she could come to love him back the way he loves her.

[> Needs, but not loves -- Dariel, 16:21:35 05/16/03 Fri

Buffy is very dependent on Spike, both to watch her back and for validation. I don't think she loves him, but she loves the fact that he is in love with her.

Could she ever love him? Maybe. If he became more independent, not so focused on her. It's hard to be loved by a man who sees only you.

I also think Buffy still has some healing to do. She's not quite ready to be in love with anyone, Angel fantasy notwithstanding.

[> She loves all the gang in one form or another -- WickedBuffy (not sure if you meant a specific kind of love), 16:53:53 05/16/03 Fri

[> Alternate theory -- Dariel, 17:38:30 05/16/03 Fri

She does love or could easily love Spike. However, after her angst-athon with Angel, she's not willing to risk a relationship with another vampire. Which, I hate to say, makes a lot of sense.

[> what's not to love? ;) -- gillie, 18:01:14 05/16/03 Fri

i say she loves him in ways she never loved angel.
angel is the crush you have in high school, not the
complicated and passionate and rewarding adult relationship.
it's angsty, but it's idealized and there's not much
below the surface if one digs down deep...

if she can get over her issues, spike is her long-haul guy.

and should she be too terrifed to be that open, well
then she'll move on, and he'll move on, but she'll
never meet his match emotionally or physically again.
IMHO whoever she ends up with post-spike is the runner
up ;)

[> Re: Love - Poll -- goose, 19:51:38 05/16/03 Fri

A lot of people say that Angel is Buffy's soulmate. Now that may be true, even though that's not my opinion. However, if Angel is Buffy's soulmate, then you have to say that Spike is her true love. The soulmates have the romanticism and are the dreamers but the true love is real and has the deep connection along with passion and pain which epitomizes the Buffy/Spike relationship.

[> Re: Love - Poll -- Kate, 21:06:39 05/16/03 Fri

Is Buffy in love with Spike? No yet.

Could she be? Definitely.

Does she care about him? Absolutely and as something more than just a friend or confidant. Given time, and if they continue of the path of discovery they have been on, Buffy could definitely fall in love with Spike and have a really great and lasting relationship with him. Angel maybe her soulmate, but Spike is her equal.

There will *always* be something between Buffy and Angel. How can there not? And some of it does have to do with the actors as well as the characters. I mean the chemistry was definitely there and seeing them (SGM & DB) on screen together again reminded me of why I fell in love with the Buffy and Angel love story in the first place, but I definitely don't think Angel is the only person Buffy will ever be able to truly love. The potential for Spike and Buffy and a strong, loving relationship exists. What Buffy and Angel have is grand and romantic and probably eternal, but it's not the stuff of everyday living. I truly believe they are soulmates, but that doesn't mean they are only meant for each other. Spike and Cordelia (whether you believe in A/C or not, heck even B/S or not) have been with their respective counter parts through it all for the last four years - through the struggles and the pain and even the good times. They have been a part of Buffy and Angel's daily living and that's the stuff that makes lasting relationships.

[> Re: Love - Poll -- Dandy, 21:31:58 05/16/03 Fri

Agree with SMG, loves but not 'in love'

[> [> Re: Love - Poll -- Laura, 22:29:37 05/16/03 Fri

I do believe that Buffy and Spike love each other, but Buffy's feelings towards Spike are like my feelings towards one of my guyfriends. I love him, feel attracted to him but I can't picture a romance between us as of yet. This may change over time but for now there is nothing like that.

Could there be something more between Spike and Buffy? Possibly, but I think Spike needs to take a step back for a bit. At this point in his unlife the B-word is dominating his life and it maybe limiting his field of vision. Look what happened with Xander, he started out thinking about Buffy romantically and now if you were to mention it he would probably start laughing. I'm not bothering to get into complicated maze about feelings for the Buffy/Angel romance.

First I think they'll have to wait a while. Buffy currently needs all the friends (not boyfriends) she can get.

[> Yes, deeply, but... -- Traveler, 22:45:45 05/16/03 Fri

she's not sure where he fits in her life at the moment, let alone where she wants him to be in the future. I think the reason we have trouble defining their relationship is because she doesn't understand it either. She's still deeply conflicted, and will likely remain so to the bitter end.

Buffy merchandise -- MsGiles (does Spike actually wear panties?), 15:40:05 05/16/03 Fri

The franchise has hardly begun to be milked yet - perhaps the board could help ME along with with a few ideas? I thought I might get the ball rolling:

1) The inflatable Bezoar. Along the lines of a bouncy castle, but more .. internal. Black goo provided.

2) 'Initiative' zombie pet control. A miniature chip fits any dead hamster or gerbil. Get years more fun from your pet!

3) 'BotWars' kit. Build your own robotic demon/abusive relative/erotic fantasy person, then enter them in our BotWars(TM) contest and see them shredded! (remember, building bots can be dangerous, and should not be attempted without adult supervision)

4) The 'Angel' library. Impress your friends with your reading tastes. The cover says 'Sartre' but inside is '1000 Knock-Knock Jokes'

5) The 'Spike' library. The same, but without the 'Sartre' cover.

6) The 'Drusilla' pet range. Your own cute bird, kitten etc in its own special cage. No feeding necessary, but see (2)

7) The instant 'Mark of Eyghon' tattoo kit. Put one on a friend when they're not looking, and watch the fun!

8) Door with hinges at the bottom. Do you annoy strong people? Get a door they can kick down time after time without damage.

9) 'Trannies'(TM) Ben/Glory transformer doll. So much fun you won't be able to remember what you started with!

[> Well done -- CW, 16:18:47 05/16/03 Fri

How about a Balthazar hot tub? Great for those who don't care if they put on a few extra pounds.

I can just see JM endorsing your zombie pet control on TV with a cute litle demo using the cat from "Dead Man's Party."

How about the Giles' book collection for nerdy teens - the covers say The Best of Playboy, Today's Hottest Romances, Archie Comics Annual, etc. Inside it's Nietzsche, Astrophysics, How to Say Actual Words to That Special Someone Who Doesn't Know You Exist and Probably Will Brush You Off Even If You Do Manage to Say Something That Isn't Stupid, etc.

[> Re: ROFLMAO! -- punkinpuss, 17:00:47 05/16/03 Fri

Heee! Brilliant ideas! Esp. the Angel & Spike libraries! I think these merit a fanart challenge!

[> Actually..... -- Rufus, 21:16:29 05/16/03 Fri

I library has a book with the cover '1001 things that piss me off'....inside is The Transcendence of the Ego by Sartre....;)

[> The "Sweet" karaoke set--sing 'til you burn! -- HonorH, 22:39:58 05/16/03 Fri

(Note: manufacturer not responsible for damage to person or property. Use at your own risk.)

Patented "Soul" jars, as seen on AtS! Just store your soul in one before your next work meeting, and we guarantee things will go your way.

Posable Dawn! Dress in trendy clothes and position any way you like. Also translates ancient and exotic languages, and her piercing shriek will scare off prowlers.

Puffy Xander Blow-Up Doll! Great for getting out your aggressions.

[> [> Soul jar? -- Rufus, 01:57:14 05/17/03 Sat

Get it right....the jar is a Muo-Ping....I know cause that's where my soul (yes, I do have one about somewhere) is for safe keeping....;)

[> (giggling) -- MsGiles, 01:40:13 05/17/03 Sat

And following on from CW's 'Giles' library..

the 'Willow' library of the Black Arts (all the pages blank)

and the 'Angelus' painting kit - part 1, 'Portraiture'. How to get a likeness in minutes and freak out your (ex) friends. Part 2, Still Life and Flower Arranging.

Meanwhile, the Buffy cookbook. Pancakes and .. pancakes. And burgers. And more pancakes. Oh, and fried eggs.

[> And in the "Truth is Starnger" camp... -- Darby, 06:03:20 05/17/03 Sat

http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/foxauction/

[> [> Um, "Stranger" -- Darby, now regretting tossing temptation your way, 06:26:11 05/17/03 Sat

OT: Anyone want to talk about Matrix 2? (Super spoilery for the movie) -- Farstrider, 17:52:40 05/16/03 Fri

I have some questions/observations about the film that I'd like to explore with the folks on this board. If anyone can help me figure this stuff out, its this board! Y'all are the finest collection of literary-minded folk I have ever snooped on.

Far

[> Re: OT: Anyone want to talk about Matrix 2? (Super spoilery for the movie) -- Kate, 19:20:57 05/16/03 Fri

I'd love to Far. I just saw it this afternoon and so it's still buzzing around in my mind. What are your thoughts and questions?

[> [> Re: OT: Anyone want to talk about Matrix 2? (Super spoilery for the movie) -- Farstrider, 19:37:03 05/16/03 Fri

I'm a-whirl also.

1. I can't figure out the motive of the rogue programs.
2. If Neo is necessary to re-boot the Matrix, I could see why the French guy would want to stop him from taking the Keymaker--because a "reboot" might destroy his cushy lifestyle, right? Then why did Persephone help the Keymaker escape?
3. Why did the Agents want to stop the Keymaker from "helping" Neo? Getting Neo into the room with the Architect was the goal, right?
4. Why don't the Agents destroy the rogue programs? (Rogue meaning not serving the Matrix.) Or is there no such thing as rogue programs? (I can say with 100% uncertainty that the Oracle is not rogue. Neither is the Keymaker, I think.) If the Twins were rogue and their purpose was to recapture Keymaker, weren't they working at cross purposes with the Agents in the big chase, because the Agents wanted to kill the Keymaker? But, they were neither working together nor shooting at each other. If the Agents want him dead, why didn't they just fall on Frenchie like a house afire?
5. Is Zion a Matrix within a Matrix? That would explain Neo's powers and Agent Smith's possession of Knifey, right?
6. What does Smith want? Everytime he was asked, he said "I want the same thing you want." What's that?

As you can see, I'm spinning too.

[> [> [> Re: OT: Anyone want to talk about Matrix 2? (Super spoilery for the movie) -- Wizard, 20:04:29 05/16/03 Fri

I saw The Matrix Reloaded on Wednesday night, and it rocked. Here are my answers to your questions- and keep in mind, many of these may be explained in The Matrix Revolutions.

#1- the rogue programs want one thing- survival. Thay band together, and with programs like the Merovingian, to ensure their survival. They fight who they must to stay alive, because they don't want to go back to the source (which I'm guessing means die).

#2- Persephone came across as very bored. The Merovingian didn't give her the same thrill he used to (mostly because he was shagging women in washrooms), and she helped the humans out in order to bring about change to end the boredom.

#3- They were fulfilling their programming. If 'ending the war' was too easy, the humans (ie. Neo) might not act as they are supposed to.

#4- Unless I'm very wrong, the Twin in the car with Morpheus, Trinity, and the Keymaker fired at the agent that ripped the top of the car off. The film's subtext is that even 'rogue' programs serve the Matrix in some way, hence their non-destruction. Everything in the Matrix is for the benefit of the humans, not only those still fully trapped, but especially for those that are partly free (I'll explain that later). The Merovingian and co., the Oracle and her guardian- all serve the Matrix whether they know it or not. The thing is, and this is what we might find out come November, is that it's entirely possible that it's the 'rogue' programs doing their jobs which will help the humans defeat the Matrix once and for all, like cancer destroying a body. The Architect said it himself- he is perfect, but humans are not, meaning that the Matrix is flawed.

#5- Almost certainly. The Architect made his work well. Humans that 'escape' believe they are in the 'real' world. Thus, there is no need to seek to escape, because you can't escape from reality. Sound familiar? Now, and this is only my opinion, the Architect did his work too well with Neo 6- Neo realized the truth. That truth is what sent Neo into the coma. It's been speculated that Neo is in the real world now.

#6- It's been speculated that Agent Smith is an earlier version of Neo, one which was corrupted into knowingly serving the Matrix. This explains why other Agents are nervous in his presense, and other things like why he was the only agent to remove his sunglasses, and his new multiplication abilities. It is my belief that every 'Neo' killed their predecessor (with the obvious exception of the Neo 1), and, when they got to this point, gave in and willingly served the Matrix. If Neo 6 continues the trend, then Neo 7 will face Agent Anderson. But the Architect said that each Neo was a little bit different from his predecessor, that Neo gradually evolved. Agent Smith (if I'm right, Neo 5) failed to evolve enough to free humanity from the Matrix, but did evolve enough to come back from the dead with new powers, like Neo 6 did. In short, this version of Neo is different both through natural evolution and because he has to face an enemy none of his predecessors did before. This is what will ultimately contribute to the destruction of the Matrix, if it can indeed be destroyed and if I'm right.

[> [> [> [> Re: OT: Anyone want to talk about Matrix 2? (Super spoilery for the movie) -- mamcu, 20:29:39 05/16/03 Fri

Everything in the Matrix is for the benefit of the humans

I still don't quite understand what you mean by that. I thought that the humans served the Matrix.???

Also, another question:

The prophecy said the One had to go to the Source to end the war, and when they were back in the ship, they talked as if Neo had gone to the Source (and the war had not ended so the prophecy was wrong). But the Architect offered him the choice of going to the Source or saving Trinity, right? And he chose to save Trinity. So it seems the One did NOT go to the Source. ???

[> [> [> [> [> Re: OT: Anyone want to talk about Matrix 2? (Super spoilery for the movie) -- Wizard, 01:22:09 05/17/03 Sat

By 'everything in the Matrix is for the benefit of the humans,' I mean that everything is meant to keep the humans in line.

As for your other question, you may well be right, BUT- Neo's story isn't over. His mind is somewhere else- somewhere we do not know about. It may be that his mind is truly in the Source instead of the 'real' world, which would fulfill the prophecy. It could be that the Source is the real world. We won't know until November.

The Architect may have been lying during some of his spiel- in fact, I'm sure of it. Unless I'm very, very wrong, every single Neo in the television screens went in the door Neo entered. Humanity is still here. The Matrix is a lie. Why wouldn't the Architect feed Neo enough truth (everything else he said, until the choice) to make him swallow the lie?

[> [> [> [> Re: OT: Anyone want to talk about Matrix 2? (Super spoilery for the movie) -- Farstrider, 20:40:29 05/16/03 Fri

You raised some good points, especially in no. 6. But here are some additional questions.

# 3 - I guess a lot of the machinations can be explained away with the "we had to pretend to be at odds with Neo to make it look good." But that is such a cheesy cliche. I hope that's not it, although you very well may be right.

#2 - Persephone - I suppose a computer program can be bored. But, bored enough to commit suicide?

#1 - Rogues - who would they have to band together against? If the Matrix wanted them gone, they'd be gone. The software lives at the pleasure of the mainframe, I would think. Also, until six months ago, there was no Neo to band against.

I dunno. It's a headscratcher.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: OT: Anyone want to talk about Matrix 2? (Super spoilery for the movie) -- Sariel, 22:31:28 05/16/03 Fri

One possibility is that the Merovingiam and Persephone were once human themselves: Persephone remarks that once the Merovingian was "just like Neo", and they'd known true love and passion. Possibly the Merovingian got to choose saving his love at the expense of his and her freedom- and now a century or so later, they've lost track of everything that once gave their love meaning.
I suspect that all programs, rogues and "humans" and possibly even Agent Smith are working to the design of the Architect, knowingly or unknowingly. Although if anyone has seen The 13th Floor, it is quite likely that Zion is simply another program.
The one possible suprise might be Agent Smith. Why haven't the other agents made a more concerted effort to delete this virus?

[> [> [> [> [> Re: OT: Anyone want to talk about Matrix 2? (Super spoilery for the movie) -- Wizard, 01:29:33 05/17/03 Sat

#3- You're right, but that would assume that the Agents know what their real goal is. The Architect, and by extension, the Matrix, is all about power. It is manipulating the Agents, using its power to make the Agents believe that they are doing a vital job- which, if I'm right, they are- but not in the way that they believe.

#2- We don't know that a reboot would eliminate everything. It's possible that instead of destroying everything, it would bring the Matrix back to beginning- in other words, to a point where the Merovingian must build up everything he has from scratch. Or it could be that Persephone is doing exactly what she is supposed to- see above re. manipulating one's own workers with illusion.

#1- Again, it's all about perception. 'Rogue' programs can serve a purpose, but do so most effectively if they believe they have free will. They band together against the Agents, who would probably be the ones to eliminate them, just as they eliminate the 'freed' people. Every once in awhile, a nonessential 'rogue' gets offed, to keep the charade going. It's all about perception, manipulation, and power.

[> [> [> Re: OT: Anyone want to talk about Matrix 2? (Super spoilery for the movie) -- Traveler, 20:24:20 05/16/03 Fri

Answer: it was all a big mind job. The various programs were trying to prevent him from reaching the door because that was the fastest way to convince him to go through it.

6. I'm not sure, but I'm guessing freedom.

[> [> [> Re: OT: Anyone want to talk about Matrix 2? (Super spoilery for the movie) -- Kate, 20:44:33 05/16/03 Fri

Yeah...the movie kinda does that to you. lol Just like 'Buffy'. :) I'll do my best on your questions (which are all good ones), but part of the answer might be we're not suppose to know until the final installment. I know that the second and third part are really one long movie broken in half basically. Not as self-contained as the first part...so that makes a difference.

1. I can't figure out the motive of the rogue programs.

I'm not sure either. That is one thing I need to see the movie again for definitely.

2. If Neo is necessary to re-boot the Matrix, I could see why the French guy would want to stop him from taking the Keymaker--because a "reboot" might destroy his cushy lifestyle, right? Then why did Persephone help the Keymaker escape?

Yeah, the French guy didn't want things to change because in the current version of the Matrix, he had power - which obviously this is what the whole battle is about - power: who has it and who wields it. As for Persephone, maybe she saw the reboot as a chance to change the balance and get her own power. Or at least take it away from her husband. By helping Neo, et al she had the power to hurt her husband and take away some of his power. Of course, Persephone's motives may not become clear until the next film if she is in it - sort of becoming a broken record, I know, but there is so much contingent on the final film.

3. Why did the Agents want to stop the Keymaker from "helping" Neo? Getting Neo into the room with the Architect was the goal, right?

My take on the Agents working against Neo is that is their part to play in the Matrix. They are programed to stop the Zionist or those humans who escape the Matrix b/c the free humans need a clearly defined opponent otherwise they won't play the "game" the Architect has created, correctly. Does that make sense? I think it goes back to the whole - human's can't deal with Utopia idea from the first movie. The free humans need someone to fight against in their struggle to stop the machines and so that's the role of the Agents.

4. Why don't the Agents destroy the rogue programs? (Rogue meaning not serving the Matrix.) Or is there no such thing as rogue programs? (I can say with 100% uncertainty that the Oracle is not rogue. Neither is the Keymaker, I think.) If the Twins were rogue and their purpose was to recapture Keymaker, weren't they working at cross purposes with the Agents in the big chase, because the Agents wanted to kill the Keymaker? But, they were neither working together nor shooting at each other. If the Agents want him dead, why didn't they just fall on Frenchie like a house afire?

Ahhh...lots of questions in one. lol Actually, I'm not sure on any of that b/c I still need to grasp the concept of the rogue programs myself.

5. Is Zion a Matrix within a Matrix? That would explain Neo's powers and Agent Smith's possession of Knifey, right?

I think the movie was definitely hinting at that possibility. It sounded like in order for the primary Matrix to function Zion was a necessary counter-part and so it is completely possible that it was created too. As far as Neo's powers, it could be because of Zion being a second Matrix, but I think it is an indicator of Neo truly being "The One." Not "The One" that the Architect created for his Matrix, but "The One" that will end the Matrix once and for all - not simply reboot it. That was my interp. anyway. And Agent Smith has become an anamolie; I think because when Neo merged with him at the end of the first movie (where we thought he was destroyed), he changed the makeup of Agent Smith, which is why he can posses others and such. His possession of Knifey was because he infiltrated the guy while he was in the Matrix and then stayed with him when Knifey went back to Zion.

6. What does Smith want? Everytime he was asked, he said "I want the same thing you want." What's that?

Not sure on that one either.

I hope some of this helped. I definitely need to see it at least 2 more times to start working it all out. Those answers are just my initial thoughts and impressions after a first viewing. :)

[> [> [> Re: OT: Anyone want to talk about Matrix 2? (Super spoilery for the movie) -- Corwin of Amber, 21:39:32 05/16/03 Fri

1. I can't figure out the motive of the rogue programs.

The rogues need the matrix as much as the non-rogues do - they need a system to exist in. These are computer programs...they need a computer to exist.

2. If Neo is necessary to re-boot the Matrix, I could see why the French guy would want to stop him from taking the Keymaker--because a "reboot" might destroy his cushy lifestyle, right? Then why did Persephone help the Keymaker escape?

I see two possibilities here. The most obvious one, and her stated objective, is a combination of ennui and jealousy. The real reason, I suspect is that it needed to happen, and The Merovingian sure as hell wasn't letting the keymaker go. Persephone's line about The Merovingian having been like Neo is now gave me pause too. Is the Merovingian a past incarnation of the One?

3. Why did the Agents want to stop the Keymaker from "helping" Neo? Getting Neo into the room with the Architect was the goal, right?

It was a goal, not necessarily theirs. One thing we really don't have a clue about is how the different parts of the matrix hierarchy relate to one another; if The Oracle is "the mother of the matrix" who is she hiding from? The Agents don't appear to be very intelligent, except for Smith, and yet seem semi-autonomous. What would happen if an Agent did encounter The Oracle?

4. Why don't the Agents destroy the rogue programs? (Rogue meaning not serving the Matrix.) Or is there no such thing as rogue programs? (I can say with 100% uncertainty that the Oracle is not rogue. Neither is the Keymaker, I think.) If the Twins were rogue and their purpose was to recapture Keymaker, weren't they working at cross purposes with the Agents in the big chase, because the Agents wanted to kill the Keymaker? But, they were neither working together nor shooting at each other. If the Agents want him dead, why didn't they just fall on Frenchie like a house afire?

I doubt the Agents could destroy most of the Rogues we met. For one, as I mentioned above, the Agents don't seem that intelligent, or powerful as compared to the Rogues, who are refugees from earlier interations of the Matrix. Agents couldn't handle either of the Twins, or Smith. For another thing, the Rogues seemed more knowledgable of the system than the Agents - look at all the back doors they freely accessed. And relations within the matrix comes up again...the Merovingian seemed to have his own little empire within the matrix...Neo said that the code in that zone "looked different". Perhaps the Agents have no authority over the Rogues.

5. Is Zion a Matrix within a Matrix? That would explain Neo's powers and Agent Smith's possession of Knifey, right?

I think Zion is just another part of the matrix. It does explain Neo's ability to destroy the Sentinels at the end, in the "real world". The whole "waking up to the real world" thing is just another level of control set up for the 1% of people who won't accept the program.

6. What does Smith want? Everytime he was asked, he said "I want the same thing you want." What's that?

What does Neo want? A reason, a purpose. The existential problem again. :)

An observation on Smith:

- Smith seems to be the only Agent with an actual personality and emotions, and possibly the only one with actual self-awareness. The others seem to have a group consiousness, which makes sense in the context of the matrix...but in the first movie Smith was able to cut himself off from that.

[> [> [> [> On Smith... -- Sofdog, 21:46:33 05/16/03 Fri

In the first film I thought it was a hilarious twist that, after talking about how he felt infected by humans and wanted so much to put down the revolution and how he "must get out," Smith was invaded by Neo. That seemed like the ultimate violation.

[> [> [> Re: OT: Anyone want to talk about Matrix 2? (Super spoilery for the movie) -- Sofdog, 21:39:56 05/16/03 Fri

1. I'll agree with mamcu. The rogues just want to live. They're 'exiles' because they are evading destruction.

2. Persephone said that the Merovingian (look to Holy text, and the legend of Atlantis for that name) was more like Neo in the beginning. Perhaps she wanted to start over and be in love with him again.

3. Again, I think mamcu nailed it. The people have to have a challenge. That's the whole point of making The Anomaly also The One. There has to be something to live for, which is why the Utopian matrix failed. The Agents not only fight the rebels, they are the measure against which The One can be judged and identified. He moves like the Agents, he stands his ground against them and lives. And, I don't think The Agents know about The Architect and that they serve to drive The One toward him. It's just their function. They do what they do.

4. The Agents do try to destroy the rogues. In the car chase scene, , the Agent spoke of deleting the Keymaker. Persephone states, when shooting one of her husbands lackeys, that some of the rogues are "notoriously difficult" to destroy. That and their ongoing evasion must lead the Agents a merry chase.

The Twin definitely shoots at the Agent after it rips the roof off the car. The Agent does that superfast dodging move for a few seconds.

The Agents don't fall on Merovingian because they don't know he has the Keymaker. The Oracle said that the Keymaker was thought dead because he'd been missing so long, but now they knew who was holding him. The Agents don't know where the Keymaker is because The One & Co. have to go through all the established steps to locate him and make their way to The Source.

5. The question of why Neo can use his powers outside the matrix is intriguing. Popular theory seems to be that Zion is in fact a portion of the matrix. Even if that isn't so, Agent Smith is able to possess "Knifey" because he consumed or 'overwrote' Knifey's consciousness inside the construct. All the Zion operatives upload their consciousness into the matrix. Smith consumed the man's consciousness, and then unplugged. Hence, he is Knifey.

6. I have no freakin' clue what Smith wants. I was vastly disappointed and annoyed by the film. Smith in particular worked my last nerve, because, aside from killing Neo, I have no idea what his objective is.

But then that has been my biggest complaint about Buffy and Angel, not knowing what the respective villains were after until the last minute.

Angel as Stella Dallas.....spoilers for "Home" -- Rufus, 22:06:21 05/16/03 Fri

The episode "Home" ended with Angel on the outside looking in on Connor toasting his new family, complete with bratty siblings. Angel had delivered a killing blow earlier after telling Connor that he was willing to prove how much he loved him. That may have been the end of it and was the ending that was considered earlier this year. In the Succubus Club interview on May 14 we got to hear input from show writers Tim Minear and David Fury (both who were apologetic and lamenting they weren't Drew Goddard).

Tim: It was a thing that we had discussed long before he was ever even cast the role. That perhaps Angel would end up you know....we knew we were going to go to a Mordred place, we knew we were going to that sort of epic, mythic, place with father and son. I think it was in season three that I had that prophecy the father will kill the son, and that was a place we really were considering going. Now, we didn't know it was going..

David: How it was going to end up...

Tim: that it was going to necessarily shake out like it did, cause we decided we didn't want Angel to kill Connor in the way that he would kill him, but we wanted to go to a Stella Dallas place. Succubus Club, May 14/03.

I have to admit it was the thing I thought of when I saw Angel looking in at the family he could never have supplied to Connor himself. On Buffy, Giles said in Lessons In the end, we all are who we are ... no matter how much we may appear to have changed. this point was driven tragically home to Angel in that store as Connor prepared to kill himself and maybe take some others along for the ride. Angel couldn't change Connor's lousy life....how do you change an upbringing in the worst Hell Dimension? How do you fix the pain Connor was in. And Angel, he can never change who he is, and that is a champion who will be fighting with no time off for courageous behavior, til he dies....again. In the movie Stella Dallas, we see a mother who is presented with a similar problem....what are you willing to do to make your child happy.

www.rottentomatoes.com

Synopsis

King Vidor's adaptation of Oliver Higgins Prouty's famed tearjerker stars Barbara Stanwyck as the eponymous heroine. Eager to escape from her neighborhood on the wrong side of the tracks and the home of her tyrannical father, Stella sets her sights on Stephen Dallas (John Boles), a plant manager from a wealthy family. After a brief courtship, Stephen and Stella marry and have a baby girl named Laurel. As time goes by, however, Stella's loud and vulgar manner and penchant for garish clothing begin to grate on Stephen, and she's equally put off by his perpetual lectures on correct behavior. She also begins spending much of her time with Ed Munn (Alan Hale), who shares her tastes, although not her bed, further alienating her husband. The couple decides to separate and Stephen soon marries Helen Morrison (Barbara O'Neil), a woman of similar background. Although Stella devotes herself to her daughter, she gradually comes to the painful realization that Laurel would have a better life away from her influence. So, feigning indifference, she sends her off to live with her father in New York. Stanwyck gives what may be her best performance, investing a character who could easily drown in pathos with energy, intelligence, and dignity. The ambivalence of Vidor's attitude toward the character and toward the issue of class in America also adds to the film's resonance.

In a twist that only ME can come up with, we get Angel as Stella Dallas. He is focused on his son, he loves his son more than anything. The one thing he knows in Home is that Connor just may be better off with someone [s] who could give his son the family he has craved. Angel does one better, he kills his son only to ressurect him into this new life, a life where he is just a kid who is dreaming of college, has a family with all the trappings. Everyone but Angel [and dead Lilah] is wiped of any memories of Connor. While everyone is considering their fortunes at a revamped [g] Wolfram and Hart, Angel is left to deal with his pain alone.

The biggest arguements have been about the questions raise by Angel taking free-will from Connor after fighting to give it back to the world.

Tim: I don't remember who's idea it was but I think I would probobly be safe in saying it probobly was Joss's idea...I know it was a thing that we all had discussed and I just love the way it shook out cause the Jasmine arc actually wasn't something we really planned at the beginning. But the whole notion of taking away free will for happiness and Angel fighting against that and ending up doing that for his kid, I just love the ironic....

I find that I can't be terribly angry at Angel for the solution he came up with. Angel knew that he couldn't fix what Connor became. Connor had been used, lied to, and never had a normal life. I find I can understand why Angel would do what he did to make his son happy. Instead of the Father killing the Son, he reinvents his son's life, to take away all the mistakes that were made by everyone. The solution doesn't ensure that there won't be negative consequences. Angel is a Champion first, but for just awhile in Home he became a parent with a child he wanted to give the world to, but knew he couldn't. I have to wonder how many of us would do the same thing?

[> Stella Dallas was the first thing I thought of, too! -- Rob, 23:05:10 05/16/03 Fri

[> Re: Angel as Stella Dallas.....spoilers for "Home" -- Arethusa, 05:27:07 05/17/03 Sat

It's a terrible thing for a parent to see his child suffer and be able to do nothing about it. It's even worse to know he knows he's to partly to blame and there's nothing he can do to help. Connor was homicidal, and he hated Angel too much to let Angel help him. It's easy to say Connor could have been rehabilitated-and maybe he could have-but the basic personality, formed by pain and horrors, would not change. Connor would always have to live with that pain. Maybe Angel took the easy way out (although I'm not sure I agree with that) but he gave Connor something he would never be able to have in his current life-peace and hope. They do love the irony at ME.

Noir's downright painful at times. "There are no children in noir" said all of the essays I read on noir. I knew the baby wouldn't be around long, but I never really believed Angel would kill him. Serves me right for forgetting the rules of the game.

Hee-"revamped."

A few quotes from A&E Biography of BTVS -- Rufus, 06:51:00 05/17/03 Sat

From the A&E Biography for Buffy the Vampire Slayer

First up is Joss talking about science...or the lack of real science in the Buffyverse...

Joss: I don't know from science. I don't know..I never tool any science. I don't know how things work. I can barely tie my shoes. But I understand emotion. So if we can get past that by going "well these things happen when you're on a Hellmouth" then we can get to what's important.

Now you know.....I was right......Magic Clause or Hellmouth clause.

The next quote was Joss on the relationships in the show...

Joss: It became clear early on that the interrelations between the characters was what was really interesting. The sort of Soap Opera of it. The Willow loves Xander, Xander loves Buffy, Buffy loves Angel, Angel's a vampire. All of that stuff was popping enormously. People really cared about that, and the monster of the week, as it were, became less crucial.

Now to James Marsters on vampires....or what vampires started out as being.....

James: Vampires as I understand it were really just meant to be killed. They're not really meant to be understood. They're metaphors for the problems that happen to young people, to anybody. To say "oh, poor vampire" was never Joss's intention at all. It probobly confused him as to why the audience was reacting in a way that may not have been completely designed.

At this point I feel Malandanza saying "It's all Rufus's fault" ....

Next is the formula Joss and the writers happened upon after Buffy slept with Angel and things went so wrong.

Joss: Our first rule became "Buffy in pain...show better. Buffy not in pain...show not so good"

Now to David Boreanaz talking about relationships.

David: Well, I think it's just in human relationships to begin with. I think it says that there is this evil side to everybody. And, I think that every woman has been through that kind of emotional ride or that situation.

Marsters now talks about evil characters...

James: If you can get a character that is evil, that is beyond the bounds of politeness and social constraint...and he also has delight in himself doing that....you have something. And that you have a character the audience really enjoys stepping behind...just for 15 minutes or so.

Joss speaking to the main metaphor of the show....

Joss: Somebody you love is going to say something really terrible. Someone you trust is going to do something untrustworthy. Somebody that you can't stand is going to come through for you when your friends don't. The thing that appealed from the start about the show as opposed to the movie, was the metaphor that High School is hell.

Now to Earshot, when the episode was delayed til the fall because of the Colonbine tragedy.....

Joss: Even though we came down against it...."Let's not shoot people" was what we were saying, anything on the subject would simply be too fascile.

James: The point of the episode was getting Buffy into that clocktower talking to the guy about his lonliness and about his being disaffected from the rest of the school. I was proud of that episode.

Now to the start of season four and Angel getting a show of his own...

Joss: We knew "a" David should have a show...and "b" we've got to split these young kids up and move on.

Ash: Giles had a really hard time as he got fired from various institutions, suddenly he realized he had no life. Which is great stuff to play.

The previous showing how an actor may see the troubles of the character they play as being a challenge instead of a curse.

Joss: One thing I realised, you know, early on...was that life doesn't stop being painful when you leave high school. The pain changes and hopefully the show changed.

This is where Willow realized that she was gay and fell in love with Tara.......

Joss: For ten episodes, we were having fun with it. And then we came out and boldly stated that Willow was in love with Tara. And that's when the hate mail, you know, the hate e-mail came...and that's when the, you know, when the people went nuts.

Emmy nominations....Hush

Joss: The fact that we got nominated ever, was was just such a bizzare thing. Especially for the episode that had no dialogue. Which I appreciate because it actually was really hard to write.

The end of the WB......

Joss: My knight in shining armor UPN came by and said "Oh, you're going to dump them?.....Well! we're going to marry them."

The musical.....

Joss: We have Sunday Shakespeare readings at the house sometimes with cast and writers from both shows. And I actually sat down at the piano...which means there must have been some beer involved. And all of a sudden James Marsters had a guitar in his hand...and the Shakespeare readings for awhile devolved into jam sessions.

See what happens....Joss didn't learn from season four.....beer is bad...it devolves you.....;)

Joss: Musicals are my favorite genre, my favorite thing. If any show ever lent itself to being a musical...it's Buffy. Um it's so histrionic, I mean, you expect them to break into song at any moment anyway.

Now to season six....you know, my Pastor got me to remember the 6th comandment by saying that six was sex.....I've never forgotten that comandment....and I'm not telling if I've ever broken it.

James: Kiddies, leave the room now, because Buffy's an adult and it's going to get pretty hairy now. And I think it was a brave decision.

Marti: The relationship between Buffy and Spike was really different than the previous relationships she'd had. They were a very sort of idealized notion of romance and the relationship with Spike really was based on lust.

The final quote from Joss about his show.....

Joss: This is somebody that girls and young boys need in their lives. I don't like to make TV shows that you enjoy and forget....I designed Buffy to be an Icon, not just a TV show.

[> Re: A few quotes from A&E Biography of BTVS -- Vegeta, 08:02:16 05/17/03 Sat

When was that on TV? And more importantly when will it be on again?

[> I like your presentation -- CW, 08:27:31 05/17/03 Sat

At this point I feel Malandanza saying "It's all Rufus's fault"

LOL. Somehow I can, too!

Joss: Our first rule became "Buffy in pain...show better. Buffy not in pain...show not so good"

Which turned out to be true. Unfortunately for a lot of us viewing season six it was "Buffy in pain, good, Buffy in pain so long that the viewers are in pain, not so good."

Re: The sixth commandent. We shall naturally assume the best of our First Virtue on this question. Re: The tenth commandment. I'd forgive you if you've ever coveted your neighbor's manservant. Good help is so hard to find. But please tell us you've never coveted her ox, donkey or BMW! ;o)

I designed Buffy to be an Icon, not just a TV show.

Cough, cough. Even for a man as talented Joss, that kind of talk is a little bit obnoxious. But, I have to admit, self-promotion is undeniably an element of the entertainment business. (Now, who was that lady that starred in the movie Rob was writing that paper on? Her self-promotion couldn't have anything to do with a lot of people loathing anything she's associated with, could it?) One wonders if comedy had become the central element rather than drama he wouldn't be saying now, "I designed Buffy to be a laugh riot, not just a sit-com."

What other shows have you followed? -- Dandy, 10:57:18 05/17/03 Sat

Just curious about what other shows you have liked, followed as intently as Buffy.

For me it was Northern Exposure.

[> Just allowed one? Then Farscape -- WickedBuffy, 11:09:20 05/17/03 Sat

ummm and I admit, I love most reality shows.

Survivor, Big Brother, Eco-Challenge, RoadRules, RealWorld, No Boundaries, Global Challenge ...

and gone but mourned - Sliders and Xena.

[> [> Many as you want. -- Dandy, 11:52:04 05/17/03 Sat

[> [> Sliders was good the first season or two. -- lost_bracelet, 13:12:50 05/17/03 Sat

Then it started sucking when the professor and the first female character left.

[> [> [> Why he left -- BlueStem, 18:13:40 05/17/03 Sat

I remember reading (quite some time ago) that the actor who played the Professor left because the show was turning into Jurassic Park with the flashy monsters and aliens, as oppose to the original premise of exploring the what-if's in modern history.

[> [> [> [> Anyone remember the tv show "All That Glitters"? -- WickedSlid (Love those "what if" universes.), 18:47:04 05/17/03 Sat

I still liked it in general, even after that. Didn't miss the Professor at all.

The episodes that were self-contained plots were great. Taking just one part of history, switching it, and seeing how different our world might possibly be. (There are some paperbacks that have anthologies based on that, too.)

I wasn't so keen on the continuing subplots, though. Those really took away from the main idea and eventually even overwhelmed it. :/

[> [> [> [> Yeah, he was right. And his presence was crucial. -- lost_bracelet, 01:03:39 05/18/03 Sun

He lent the show both dignity and dry humor. When he left, the whole thing fell apart.

[> [> [> [> [> We have such different opinions about him. I saw him as stereotypical & easily replaced. :> -- WickedBuffy (opinions make the world go 'round!), 08:46:50 05/18/03 Sun

[> Northern Exposure rocked! -- lost_bracelet, 13:11:23 05/17/03 Sat

Best thing on television, ever, in my opinion. Even better than Buffy, because there wasn't a single bad episode.

[> [> That was it for me too, if we just get one -- mamcu, 20:42:40 05/17/03 Sat

But lots of runners-up, starting with the radio version of Stella Dallas, on to the earliest parts of some soap in the late 50's, Dark Shadows, St. Elsewhere, MASH...trying now to get into Everwood (what else can we do?)

[> [> [> St. Elsewhere: same writer/producer as Northern Exposure -- lost_bracelet, 01:06:44 05/18/03 Sun

[> [> Yes, one of the best -- Dariel, 13:08:42 05/18/03 Sun

Though it lost me when Joel left--he really was the heart of the show.

[> [> [> Agreed. "The Quest" was the true ending of the show. -- lost_bracelet, 14:29:39 05/18/03 Sun

The one in which Maggie and Joel go off to find the jeweled city, and it turned out to be a magic Einstein-Rosenberg bridge to New York City. Joel walks through it; Maggie stays. Marilyn intuitively knew he'd left, and from her seat at home, looked up and said, "Goodbye."

The series was about Joel's personal evolution during his time in Alaska. When he left, that was really the end of the story.

[> NT: Not to beat a deadhorse, but Firefly . . . ;( <sniff> -- Farstrider, 13:13:20 05/17/03 Sat

[> [> Yeah, Firefly had a lot of promise. I wished they'd shown the episodes in order, though. -- lost_bracelet, 13:16:30 05/17/03 Sat

I almost didn't watch the show because it didn't make sense to me (because of the out-of-orderiness). And then they went and canceled it. Stupid Fox!

[> [> News on Firefly DVD - etc -- s'kat, 15:44:35 05/17/03 Sat

According to Tim Minear and David Fury - the Firefly DVD will include three unaired episodes, including one directed and written by Minear and starring Jonathan Woodward who played Holden Webster in CwDP and Knox in Home.

Whedon has NOT given up on Firefly. He would like to either find a new home for it or turn it into a film. So there's hope. This I discovered in a Whedon interview.

And I too loved Firefly.

[> OK... -- KdS, 14:45:42 05/17/03 Sat

In the SF/fantasy genre:

Babylon 5, although it declined somewhat in the last two years.

American Gothic

ST:DS9 - wasn't impressed with Voyager or Enterprise

In other genres:

Northern Exposure - agree with lost_bracelet about the quality of that one. Jumped the shark after Joel & Maggie Did It.

Homicide: Life on the Street - best US cop show in human history

A number of UK shows you probably haven't heard of - did Between the Lines ever get shown in the US?

[> Re: What other shows have you followed? -- monsieurxander, 15:21:59 05/17/03 Sat

Xena: Warrior Princess
Kind of fluffy and campy, but that's what made it great. Lesbian subtext, anachronisms galore, pop culture references, and royally screwing over mythology. I loved it.

Sliders
Even though it jumped the shark (DEFINITELY with the last season), I followed it to the end. It did upset me that all of the characters had bad ends. Quinn, Wade, Colin, Remy, the Professor... all either died or had mysterious and unresovling ends. Even Maggie, Diana, and Mallory were left stranded on some strange world at the series' end. I did, however, really enjoy all of their different takes on different stories (the Lost World, Island of Doctor Mureau, etc). The joy of this series was wondering "What the hell have they gotten themselves into now?"

Gilmore Girls
Not exactly epic, but has some of the wittiest, cutest, and snarkiest dialogue on TV.

the original X-Men cartoon series
Most intelligent children's series.... ever.

[> [> Sliders Ending ::years later, still not giving up hope:: -- WickedBuffy, 18:53:54 05/17/03 Sat

I always thought they left it wide open in order to come back, offer some specials or even a movie.

Unlike Farscape where the ending was pretty much just dust to dust.

[> Re: What other shows have you followed? -- Rhys who is not Rhys-Michael, 15:28:11 05/17/03 Sat

Hmmm. Toughie. I guess I'd have to say:

The original Star Trek

M*A*S*H

Quantum Leap

Highlander

[> Farscape. Then, now and forever -- Miss Edith, 16:36:19 05/17/03 Sat

I know it's coming back one of these days *sniff*

Angel. Goes without saying I presume?

American Gothic. Someone's at the door! Oh Lucas how I miss you and Selena, and the gang.

My So-Called Life. And not just because I found Jordon dreamy, it was a great show of teen angst and very quoteble.

Le Femme Nikita. Well until the season C5 have just aired over here (UK) when they killed off Birkoff and made Nikita a spy. Lost interest after that, and haven't been following the latest season.

The X-Files, even though it did jump the shark after the first four seasons. I didn't give up on it until midway through the firth season though.

That's pretty much it. I watch a ton of other programes casually (Eastenders for a start, I love my soaps), but those are the programes I watched intently, and plan to purchase on DVD, if I haven't already.

[> [> X-Files didn't become irredeemable until the eighth season, after Mulder left. -- Rob, 11:26:30 05/18/03 Sun

[> Watched Dark Angel a few times -- MsGiles, 16:46:37 05/17/03 Sat

the characters have some appeal, and the Bladerunnerish ambience, (and the kickass bits) but it seems kind of lacking in levels after Buffy. One dimensional.

[> [> Yeah but it did have sexy Alex! -- Miss Edith, 18:10:32 05/17/03 Sat

That programe wasn't high art or anything but I freaking adored that man. He brought the sex appeal, and the snark! That cheesy episode when he was reliving his past, and he's all sexy and tormented I still have that one on tape hee.

[> [> [> Sexy and tormented, huh? Think I need to catch up on this -- MsGiles, 09:49:28 05/18/03 Sun

[> [> I was a big Dark Angel fan... -- JCC, 12:09:13 05/18/03 Sun

until FOX got axe-happy. Damn them! I miss that show.

[> Re: What other shows have you followed? -- Narya, 18:19:46 05/17/03 Sat

The X-Files. ;) (Up until the end of season five).

[> Re: What other shows have you followed? -- Sofdog, 20:28:38 05/17/03 Sat

Xena: Warrior Princess, Hercules: The Legendary Journies, La Femme Nikita, Angel, Farscape, Dead Zone, Witchblade, Sex & the City, Oz, The Invisible Man, Lexx, Alias, X-Files, Millennium, Law & Order: Special Victims Unit. Special marks to Boomtown. And, I always watch Charmed, though it really could be better.

And back in the way back: er, and NYPD Blue.

[> Re: What other shows have you followed? -- Rendyl, 20:38:56 05/17/03 Sat

Well, since Rhys mentioned it I will confess my addiction to 'Highlander'. It got so bad my little girl (then just under a year old) would bounce in front of the tv and pat Duncan's face. If she was asleep the sounds of the swordfights would wake her up.

'Firefly' - of course. (if any of you read fanfiction you should check out anything Nicole Clevenger writes. She is amazing and her Mal characterization is extremely well done.) Sigh. I miss Mal, I miss Kayley, I miss Jayne and Vera...I miss everybody.

'24' - it is like some evil pit Honorificus dumped me in where I have no control and I -MUST- watch each week. At the end of every episode I rant about how much I "aghhh, hate this show' but I -cannot- stop watching. Pity me. There is the added humiliation of every time I predict Jack's action before he does it my husband makes bad jokes about my potential for a career in spydom.

'JOHN DOE' - if Fox didn't deserve to have the plagues of Egypt loosed on them for canceling Firefly they do now for canceling John Doe. I mean...it was not only a great show but a cultural event at my house. When Firefly opened we watched both (with pizza, popcorn and drinks) and after they put (shivers in horror) Fastlane on we would just watch John.

Oh...(blushes)...before we moved and still had cable I watched 'The Crocodile Hunter' and 'Samarai Jack'. I could say it was because my daughter liked them but I was actually the bigger fan.

Ren - who had no idea she was watching so much tv

[> Nothing ever as intensely as Buffy -- tomfool, 22:25:46 05/17/03 Sat

Over the years, I've followed lots of shows. Nothing has ever inspired taping, DVDs, archiving, rewatching, or thinking like Buffy. But there have been lots of other worthies:

Northern Exposure

Wonder Years - This was fascinating because Kevin Arnold was exactly the same age as me in the corresponding school grades. It was sappy, but struck home amazingly often.

Farscape - Just into S2 and it's a great show.

Angel - Just started watching this year, but what a great year it was.

Seinfeld, Sports Night, News Radio, St. Elsewhere, Hill Street Blues, All in the Family, ER for a while, X-Files for a while.

[> Dr Who (as a kid), DS9, West Wing -- Indri, 22:58:43 05/17/03 Sat

Would have been more of a Blake's 7 fan too but as a child I found it too scary.

[> [> Oh, and Cowboy Bebop -- Indri, 22:59:53 05/17/03 Sat

[> [> [> Ditto on Cowboy Bebop, here! I love the direction of that. -- WickedYahh forOtherSpike :D, 08:37:11 05/18/03 Sun

[> [> [> [> Re: Ditto on Cowboy Bebop, here! I love the direction of that. -- lcolford, 19:33:19 05/18/03 Sun

Cowboy Bebop (TV variety) is my mainstay with Firefly gone. The art, the characters, the music make those wee hours a delight. I'm sure my neighbors love me "singing" along with the Japanese lyrics to "The Real Folk Blues."

[> [> [> [> [> My Tivo has Bebop Burned into it. And LOL! ... you can sing in Japanese? -- WickedBuffy (Haven't seen the movie, yet, though), 21:27:28 05/18/03 Sun

I tried watching the anime about Alexander the Great but it seemed monotonous. Tried Trigun for about 4 episodes, it had some intriguing character art surprises, but not enough to keep me watching.

Cowboy Bebops "direction"? if it wasn't anime I'd call it the camera angles and lighting that add another layer of appeal. I'm not sure what the terms are for those things in animation, though.

[> [> [> [> [> [> The movie is awesome! -- neaux, 08:29:58 05/19/03 Mon

I saw the movie last week at the theater. Unfortunately it was dubbed in English. But the movie was still great!! I highly recommend it.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Loved the characters. Loved the look. Loved the music. Plot was ree-diculous. -- cjl, 09:45:47 05/19/03 Mon

I could watch 2 hours of Faye, Spike (Spiegel, that is), and Jet mouthing off at each other. It might have preferable to the bundle of cliches that served as the plot of this movie. (I'd still recommend it, though!)

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I keep seeing the movie to dl online & didn't even know there was a book! -- WickedB (yah, the plots weren't the strongest!), 11:35:06 05/19/03 Mon

[> X-Files, Simpsons (of course!!!), Sopranos, and--- TWIN PEAKS!!! -- Q, 23:20:32 05/17/03 Sat

[> Re: What other shows have you followed? -- Wizard, 02:44:20 05/18/03 Sun

Hmm...

Animated: Spider-Man, X-Men (90's), Justice League, X-Men: Evolution, Samurai Jack (I cannot recommend any of these, especially Samurai Jack, enough!)

Live: Angel (especially now with BtVS gone), Law & Order (the original), M*A*S*H, All in the Family, OZ... can't think of any more right now.

[> Horrifying confession to make -- ponygirl, 06:42:57 05/18/03 Sun

I watched the 2 hour finale of Dawson's Creek. For 2 hours. I hadn't watched the show in years (and even then I never really liked it) but I felt some sick compulsion for closure and, even worse, to find out whether at long last Joey would choose Pacey or Dawson.

I'm feeling a little dirty now.

[> [> aww, here's some soap, we can wash off in that creek over there. :> -- WickedBuffy ::watched the last 15 minutes for same reason::, 08:48:38 05/18/03 Sun

[> [> [> out out damned Creek! -- ponygirl, 09:02:24 05/18/03 Sun

[> [> [> [> Let Caleb do it, you Dirty Girl! -- Dandy, 12:22:26 05/18/03 Sun

[> [> Re: Horrifying confession to make -- Alison, 10:28:24 05/18/03 Sun

really?..me too! almost exactly the same story..I used to watch back when Joey was with Pacey, and I had to see who she picked, even though it meant enduring much mockage from my entire family..and it was worth it! I'm not ashamed...uh..much.

[> [> [> Me too...but the ending pissed me off. -- Rob, 11:24:43 05/18/03 Sun

I used to watch in the first and second seasons but left when Joey started dating Pacey, which just squicks me for some reason...so notice my horror and shock when I return to what used to be a much-loved show of mine to find out not only that Joey chooses Pacey (why! oh why?!?) but my favorite character, Jen, has been killed from a mysterious heart disease they claim she always had but which had never been mentioned before! If this hadn't been the last episode, I never would have watched this crap again!

Um....why do I still care? This show became an embarassment a long time ago. But apparently, I'm not the only one. The last ep got the show's best ratings since the first season!

Rob

[> [> [> [> Re: Me too...but the ending pissed me off. -- Alison, 12:51:07 05/18/03 Sun

aww...poor Rob. I'm an admitted Joey/Pacey shipper so..the ending gave me an easy happy. I feel for you about Jen though..I never thought much about her, but killing her like that...ugh. It was sad though... touching in a sappy way. What I thought was the best part? Jack and Doug (?)...it was emotional in a way that pleasantly surprised me..so all in all, worth the shame of watching something so vapid and plotless.

[> [> [> [> [> I thought the best ending would have been Joey and (medical miracle) Jen together. -- WickedTwist (just for the look on Dawson & Pacey's faces), 22:17:27 05/18/03 Sun

[> [> [> [> Aha! DIRTY GIRLS! Don't worry, you still have potential..... -- Dandy, 12:57:32 05/18/03 Sun

[> [> [> [> Now that we're confessing -- Dariel, 13:07:23 05/18/03 Sun

I loved Dawson's Creek the first season, with golden-boy Dawson surrounded by his outcast friends. Also liked most of the second season. When they sent Joey's dad back to jail, I quit--just got too treacly after that. I even tried to watch the finale, but couldn't get into it. You can't go back, it seems, or at least I can't. And killing off Jen--that sucks!

[> [> [> [> [> Even bigger a confession...I bought the first season DVD set--the only one I will get. -- Rob, recalling when 1 could proudly admit to watching Dawson, 15:04:52 05/18/03 Sun

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Even bigger a confession...I bought the first season DVD set--the only one I will get. -- Alison, 16:17:32 05/18/03 Sun

I'm actually considering that too, just for fun this summer..I never saw the first season... so tell me Rob, is it worth the money?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> The picture quality was a bit disappointing, but I still maintain... -- Rob, 16:30:07 05/18/03 Sun

...that the first season was not only Dawson's best by comparison to its others, but damn good by itself. The first season was intelligently written, much less soapy, and emotionally true. It deserved acclaim its first season, IMO. The problem is the instant Dawson and Joey finally got together by the start of the second season, the writers had no idea what to do with them but to break them up and thus start the on-again off-again merry-go-round. But when the characters were still fresh and hadn't gone through the same plot line over and over again, "Dawson's Creek" really was an excellent show. My mom even used to love it, and she's not one for most "teeny-bopper" shows. The first 12 episodes were pure gold, and it was all downhill from there. Now, I'm not saying you should expect Shakespeare or Buffy quality, in acting, writing, or directing, but I defy anybody to not be touched by the first season. It was a sweet show once upon a time, where sex was more talked about and implied rather than actually done by the characters, and the plots weren't too over-the-top to believe. Yes, it's idealized and melodramatic, but it isn't cheap, as it later became.

Rob

[> [> [> [> [> I confess. I only watched a few episodes so I could understand all the parodies of it. -- WickedBuffy };> ('specially how they talked), 21:05:28 05/18/03 Sun

[> AtS, Six Feet Under, Firefly, Alias, Farscape, Xena, Star Trek: TNG, X-Files, Sopranos -- Rob, 09:14:57 05/18/03 Sun

[> [> OT - Alias Finale -- Tom, 17:35:49 05/19/03 Mon

Rob,

Slightly Off Topic, What did you think of the Alias Season Finale?

Tom

[> Endings of things -- ponygirl, 09:26:57 05/18/03 Sun

It's interesting, reading others choices I realize, once again, just how unique Buffy is. I've had shows that I've loved that were cancelled too soon. I've had shows that I was very into at one time or another, but by the time they ended the love affair was over. X-files I'd thrown my hands up in frustration a couple seasons before the last episode aired. Northern Exposure I adored, but for me the series ended when Rob Morrow left. St. Elsewhere and Hill Street Blues were great, but felt kind of tired by the end. Generally speaking American television doesn't do well with endings - the desire for reinvention, for hanging in just a little while longer is too strong, shows end up staying until no one really wants them around anymore. With BtVS I still feel as much passion, if not more, for the show as I ever did, and yet I'm glad they're ending it. This is what that elusive 'going out while on top' feels like, and it makes me very proud of the show.

[> [> So true -- Dandy, 12:50:10 05/18/03 Sun

So true about most American shows hanging on too long.

I thought the producers of Northern Exposure really didn't realize how important Chris little rants on his moring show were. For me, when they stopped these it was sad. They were so poetically framed. John Corbett had such wonderful delivery.
I thought the show could have survived without the Joel character if the producers realized the sex appeal of John Corbett and how wonderful it was for the audience to be presented with so much to think about. I think that you are right about the show losing it when Rob Morrow left but for me it wasn't about the Rob Morrow or his character being that interesting or appealing. It was more about the producers 'not realizing what they got till it's gone.'

Remember the show with Chris and the lights? Him collecting bulbs and then at the end-the light sculpture?
Transcendant television. Wasn't it lovely?

[> Re: What other shows have you followed? -- skyMatrix, 14:07:20 05/18/03 Sun

The Joss shows are all assumed to be on the "good" list.

In the category of "shows I still follow or still enjoy revisiting," Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, Farscape, Darkwing Duck, Gargoyles, Scrubs, and Kodomo No Omocha (Child's Toy)

In the category of "I'm just starting to follow it" is Kim Possible, the next best thing to the animated Buffy.

Finally, in the category of "I used to follow it but now regret it," Star Trek: The Next Generation, Star Trek: Voyager, The X-Files, The West Wing, and a large collection of lesser cartoons and sitcoms.

[> I liked Space Precinct - funny, NYPDblue-ish, Gerry Anderson -- MsGiles, 03:40:44 05/19/03 Mon

[> Martial Law! -- MsGiles, 08:48:15 05/19/03 Mon

Remember Grace doing a handstand on a top floor parapet a la Fray?

[> Martial Law! -- MsGiles, 08:52:12 05/19/03 Mon

Remember Grace doing a handstand on a top floor parapet a la Fray? Grace (Kelly Hu) deserved a series!

[> Twin Peaks -- dream, 12:01:26 05/19/03 Mon

That's the only one I can say I followed as intensely as I followed Buffy. ("Past tense rule!") I used to watch Northern Exposure sometimes, and Homicide, and the Helen Mirren Prime Suspect series on PBS. The older I get, the less I can justify spending much time on tv or movies. I don't have a tv, and allow myself only two hours a week for viewing (Buffy tapes, rentals.) I just started watching Six Feet Under, and I think I'm going to enjoy it, but I doubt that I will break my two-hour pledge for it. (I will break it when the season four Buffy boxset comes out.) I was watching The Sopranos on DVD for a while, but ultimately decided I was sick of tough guys, double crossing, and brutality. I know there's lots of interesting stuff there, but it was buried under such horror, I just couldn't take it. I kept feeling like I needed to shower afterwards. (Which was why the scene of Meadow cleaning up her grandmother's house, nearly made sick from the stench of the post-party filth, resonated so strongly with me.)

On some level, I am actually looking forward to Buffy being over. I don't particularly like being so obsessed with something that is not, ultimately, an act of my own creation. Do you ever feel that tingle when a really long novel that you've enjoyed immensely is nearing a close? You don't want it to end, but in a way you do, so that you can be released from its spell, so to speak, and return more fully to your own life. I'm ready to put Buffy behind me. (Though expect me around to discuss the season four box set when I get it - god, I'm like an addict!)

Whedon answers questions: soul, redemption, etc for nytimes -- s'kat, 11:17:43 05/17/03 Sat

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/05/16/r...ml?pagewanted=1

Not reprinting all of it but here's the most important bits and I think they answer some of our debates:

"Q. 1. What are your thoughts on the academic community's use of the
show, from the humanities to the sciences, to debate and analyze everything?

A. I think it's great that the academic community has taken an interest
in the show. I think it's always important for academics to study
popular culture, even if the thing they are studying is idiotic. If it's
successful or made a dent in culture, then it is worthy of study to find
out why.

"Buffy," on the other hand is, I hope, not idiotic. We think very
carefully about what we're trying to say emotionally, politically, and
even philosophically while we're writing it. The process of breaking a
story involves the writers and myself, so a lot of different influences,
prejudices, and ideas get rolled up into it. So it really is, apart from
being a big pop culture phenom, something that is deeply layered
textually episode by episode. I do believe that there is plenty to study
and there are plenty of things going on in it, as there are in me that I
am completely unaware of. People used to laugh that academics would
study Disney movies. There's nothing more important for academics to
study, because they shape the minds of our children possibly more than
any single thing. So, like that, I think "Buffy" should be analyzed,
broken down, and possibly banned.

Q. 3. Are there any plot twists or character developments (characters
leaving the show, going from evil to good or vice versa) that you look
back on and wish you could alter, somehow?

A. There aren't a lot of twists that I wanted to throw out there.
After seven years you've pretty much used a bunch of them up, and then
you start twisting just to twist again (like we did last summer). You're
not really telling mythic stories, you're just trying to surprise people
and it sort of becomes fake.

However, there are a couple of things I would've liked to have seen a
little more of; either Vampire or Hyena Xander, because Nick pulls that
off really well. And I wish we had been able to service Dawn's character
a little bit more in her third season. I really wanted to paint her with
a lot of different colors, but we got wrapped up in the big slayer story
and the whole arc of the season, so I think she got a little bit gypped.

Q. 4. Buffy's father and his absence are important thematically in the
first season. How did he go from being a somewhat neglectful,
newly-divorced father in Season One to a total deadbeat? Did he fade out
to clear the way for Giles as a father figure? Did you ever consider
taking the Joyce/Giles pairing farther than it went?

A. It's true that Buffy's father started out as just a divorced dad and
then turned into this sort of "evil pariah" figure of not even bothering
to show up, and that was simply because we had a father figure in Giles.

I'm very much more interested in the created family than I am in actual
families. And, you have to deal with that character; how he's dealing
with his ex-wife's death for example. We have so many characters to
service it made things simpler to use the short hand of, "he's just not
there". And since we're telling stories about family that often hit on
the traditional patriarchy as being kind of lame-o, and the created
family as being more lasting and more loving, it just made sense.

But there was also the practical reality of having to hire an actor and
create a sub-plot that may not be as important as what we wanted to see
our regular actor, Tony Head, going through, nothing against Dean [the
actor who played Buffy's father]. We didn't mean to make him such a bad
guy, but that's just the reality of the thing.

And no, I never wanted Joyce and Giles to hook up romantically, but I
did think it would be pretty funny if they had one night of drunken sex,
of course the "Band Candy" episode lent itself perfectly to that.

Q. 5. I would like to get a more in-depth, coherent explanation of your
concept of the soul. It seems to be the crucial thing that separates
good and evil in the Buffyverse, yet at times it is treated like a
commodity -- if you survive torture or know the right kind of magic you,
too, can get a soul. Is it one particular soul per customer, as the
white fog in the glass jar, identified as "Angel's soul" would indicate?
Or is the soul merely the conscience? Why was Spike able to be "good"
even without a soul?

A. I would love to give you a more in-depth coherent explanation of my
view of the soul, and if I had one I would. The soul and my concept of
it are as ephemeral as anybody's, and possibly more so. And in terms of
the show, it is something that exists to meet the needs of convenience;
the truth is sometimes you can trap it in a jar; the truth is sometimes
someone without one seems more interesting than someone with one. I
don't think Clem has a soul, but he's certainly a sweet guy. Spike was
definitely kind of a soulful character before he had a soul, but we made
it clear that there was a level on which he could not operate. Although
Spike could feel love, it was the possessive and selfish kind of love
that most people feel. The concept of real altruism didn't exist for
him. And although he did love Buffy and was moved by her emotionally,
ultimately his desire to possess her led him to try and rape her because
he couldn't make the connection -- the difference between their
dominance games and actual rape.

With a soul comes a more adult understanding. That is again, a little
vague, but... can I say that I believe in the soul? I don't know that I
can. It's a beautiful concept, as is resurrection and a lot of other
things we have on the show that I'm not really sure I can explain and I
certainly don't believe in. It does fall prey to convenience, but at the
same time it has consistently marked the real difference between
somebody with a complex moral structure and someone who may be affable
and even likable, but ultimately eats kittens.

Q. 6. We hear you're fond of Shakespeare's works - "Hamlet" in
particular. Could that have partly inspired the "Normal Again" storyline
that Buffy might be insane, since one theory about "Hamlet" goes that
the entire story is actually taking place in Hamlet's imagination? How
important is "Normal, Again" in the "Buffy" arc?

A. I have never been a subscriber to, "the entire play takes place in
Hamlet's imagination" theory. In fact, although I'm a devoted fan of
"Hamlet" and it is the text I know best in all the world, "Normal Again"
did not come from it.

How important it is in the scheme of the "Buffy" narrative is really up
to the person watching. If they decide that the entire thing is all
playing out in some crazy person's head, well the joke of the thing to
us was it is, and that crazy person is me. It was kind of the ultimate
postmodern look at the concept of a writer writing a show, which is not
the sort of thing we usually do on the show. The show had merit in
itself because it did raise the question, "How can you live in this
world and be sane?" But at the same time the idea amused me very much
and we played on it a little bit, "How come her little sister is taller
than her?" "What was Adam's plan?" We played on the crazy things we came
up with time and time again, to make this fantasy show work and called
them into question the way any normal person would. But ultimately the
entire series takes place in the mind of a lunatic locked up somewhere
in Los Angeles, if that's what the viewer wants. Personally, I think it
really happened.

Q. 7. Redemption has been an important theme of the show. Is redemption
the mode through which the characters become less cliched, more
inspiring and interesting? Is redemption a theme that you have looked
for in other texts from which you have drawn inspiration?

A. Redemption has become one of the most important themes in my work and
it really did start with Angel.I would say probably with the episode
"Amends," but even with the character itself and the concept of the
spin-off was about redemption. It was about addiction and how you get
through that and come out the other side, how you redeem yourself from a
terrible life. I do actually work with a number of reformed addicts, if
that's what you call them. I call them drunks. But my point is a good
number of people that are most close to me creatively have lived that
life, and it informs their work. I never have, and so I'm not sure why
it is that redemption is so fascinating to me. I think the mistakes I've
made in my own life have plagued me, but they're pretty boring mistakes:
I committed a series of grisly murders in the eighties and I think I
once owned a Wilson-Phillips Album. Apart from that I'm pretty much an
average guy, yet I have an enormous burden of guilt. I'm not sure why.
I'm a WASP, so it's not Jewish or Catholic guilt; it's just there.
Ultimately, the concept of somebody who needed to be redeemed is more
interesting to me. I think it does make a character more textured than
one who doesn't.

I can't think of anything, off hand, that I am a big fan of that
contains that kind of thing. My favorite fictions are usually the kind I
make, which is sort of adolescent rites of passage, which is what
"Buffy" is about. It's about the getting of strength and that's probably
the most important theme in any of my work, but I would say coming a
close second is the theme of redemption. I think as you make your way
through life it's hard to maintain a moral structure, and that
difficulty and the process of coming out the other side of a dark, even
psychological time is to me the most important part of adulthood.

I think to an extent every human being needs to be redeemed somewhat or
at least needs to look at themselves and say, "I've made mistakes, I'm
off course, I need to change." Which is probably the hardest thing for a
human being to do and maybe that's why it interests me so.

Q. 9. Have you always known how "Buffy" would end? I ask this more in
terms of Buffy's character than the show's plot. Meaning - have you
always known where you wanted to take the character psychologically? And
if so, where is that?

A. It would have been impossible for me to predict where Buffy's
character would go by the end of the series because the character is
informed by so many things. You have to find out what people respond to,
you have to find out what works on the show, what aspects make sense,
what your meaning is. After seven years your mission statement may have
changed. Ours remained pretty much the same, or rather came full circle.
We looked at the idea of power; the girl who had power that nobody
understood, living in high school and how hard that was. We came back to
that girl and that concept very strongly in the seventh season on
purpose because we knew it was our last.

In terms of the character, though, you can't say -- a lot of it has to
do with the actor. If you are working with an actor, and reading them at
all, and are making a show in which people change and don't just solve a
crime every week, inevitably that actor informs that character. It
happened very quickly with Willow becoming goofier and sexier, because
that's the way Alyson was. Giles' character became hipper because Tony
was not a stuffy guy. Sarah's became more thoughtful and intelligent.
Buffy also became a little bit closed off from the other characters, in
the same way that a star is kind of separated from an ensemble, so we
dealt with the idea of the isolation of the Slayer, of the person who
has to lead.

Some of that of course comes also from me -- because at the end of the
day I don't know how I'm going to evolve -- and as much as the actor,
the writer is the character. For seven years I've been Buffy. Some
people do plot in advance, but because my show is really about just
growing up and changing and growing, if you try and predict that too
heavily you stunt it, you don't feel a natural flow and the stories
start to feel forced."

There you have it. Read whatever you wish into it.

;-)

SK

[> Can we just have an hour of Joss interviews to replace Buffy with? -- lunasea, 11:53:58 05/17/03 Sat

Spike could feel love, it was the possessive and selfish kind of love that most people feel. The concept of real altruism didn't exist for him.

Which is always where the debate was. I use Thomas Aquinas' definition "to will the good of another." Scott Peck's is similar, but I don't have the exact words now. Such a sentiment requires a certain level of altruism, a level that Spike pre-soul cannot possess. As Joss said, they made that perfectly clear.

Some would call possessive and selfish a form of love. I would even be willing to call it creepy vampire love. Those who say that Spike can't love aren't saying he doesn't have this sort of obsessive, really, really REALLY love. He doesn't have what we would consider love with no modifiers. We don't think that Buffy should settle for anything less.

I never really understood the debate. As Joss said, they made is clear that there was a level he couldn't operate on and he couldn't possess that sort of altruism. For me, the fun was digging into his motivations for actions that normally would be motivated by this.

to each their own.

Thanks for sharing. I could listen to Joss all day.

[> [> Is it possible for you to post without mentioning Spike? Just curious. -- s'kat, 12:18:11 05/17/03 Sat

I swear lunasea I'm beginning to think you're more obsessed with the character than anyone on the board.

[> [> [> 'cmon guys...at least for these last few days, can't we all just get along, relatively snark free? -- Alison, 12:22:20 05/17/03 Sat

[> [> [> tee hee. Thinking the same thing. Thanks for posting the NYT text s'kat. -- newbie, 12:24:05 05/17/03 Sat

[> [> [> I'm surprised you even read my posts enough to say that. -- lunasea, 12:25:06 05/17/03 Sat

[> Thanks, SK. -- Dariel, 12:14:48 05/17/03 Sat

Your fingers must be aching these days!

[> Sure to be the Rosetta Stone of post-series analysis. Thanks. -- cougar, 13:05:27 05/17/03 Sat

[> This quote should be at the top of the board: -- Rob, 13:31:48 05/17/03 Sat

"[The soul] does fall prey to convenience, but at the same time it has consistently marked the real difference between somebody with a complex moral structure and someone who may be affable and even likable, but ultimately eats kittens."

Rob

[> Thank you, S'kat! Always on the news frontline;) -- Haecceity (wondering if I can remember my NYT PIN), 14:08:51 05/17/03 Sat

[> [> Here's the rest, just for you Hacceity.;-) -- s'kat, 15:40:53 05/17/03 Sat

"Q. 2. Is there anything on any show you wanted to do, but couldn't,
because the budget or network TV standards wouldn't allow it?

A. I've always fought the budget fight, but I found early on the less
money you have the more you have to fall back on good story telling, so
it's never been a terrible problem. We've never been able to have (with
the exception of John Ritter) any particularly notable guest stars.
We're not one of those shows that's such a big hit that everyone wants
to be on it, and we never had enough money to have anyone really famous.
Every now and then we sort of wished we would, but we don't really tell
stories that way so that wasn't a big deal either.

The only thing that we've ever actually been stopped or asked to stop
doing was the fast food run. When Buffy worked at the fast food joint it
made the advertisers very twitchy. So apparently the most controversial
thing we ever had on Buffy was a hamburger and chicken sandwich.

Q. 3. Are there any plot twists or character developments (characters
leaving the show, going from evil to good or vice versa) that you look
back on and wish you could alter, somehow?

A. There aren't a lot of twists that I wanted to throw out there.
After seven years you've pretty much used a bunch of them up, and then
you start twisting just to twist again (like we did last summer). You're
not really telling mythic stories, you're just trying to surprise people
and it sort of becomes fake.

However, there are a couple of things I would've liked to have seen a
little more of; either Vampire or Hyena Xander, because Nick pulls that
off really well. And I wish we had been able to service Dawn's character
a little bit more in her third season. I really wanted to paint her with
a lot of different colors, but we got wrapped up in the big slayer story
and the whole arc of the season, so I think she got a little bit gypped.

Q. 8. "Firefly" was the first time in a while when your ideas did not
get to make it through to fruition. First of all, is there anything you
would like to share with people following the show on the edge of their
seats? And secondly, having seen how you turned a previous
disappointment, "Buffy the Vampire Slayer," the movie, into an artistic
success on your own terms, can we hope for something similar with
"Firefly"?

A. "Firefly." I'll answer the second question first. I have every hope
in the world of bringing "Firefly" back to people in another format. I
haven't got anything definite yet but I've been fighting to do that
since the day we were cancelled. I therefore don't have any particular
plot things I want to share with people because I'm hoping I'll get the
chance to do that in the near future, whether it be on TV, film or a
t-shirt.

It was a bizarre blow to have a story in your head and suddenly not get
to tell it. I don't know why, I've written movies long enough to know
that that's usually the case, but after "Buffy" and "Angel" sort of took
off I got lulled into overconfidence and was so excited to tell the
stories of these people, and then suddenly had it truncated. However,
knowing that what we shot will be coming out on DVD in its full form is
a big vindication, because I got to say a lot of things that I wanted to
say right, up in the first episodes. So, as I said, watch and wait.

Q. 9. Have you always known how "Buffy" would end? I ask this more in
terms of Buffy's character than the show's plot. Meaning - have you
always known where you wanted to take the character psychologically? And
if so, where is that?

A. It would have been impossible for me to predict where Buffy's
character would go by the end of the series because the character is
informed by so many things. You have to find out what people respond to,
you have to find out what works on the show, what aspects make sense,
what your meaning is. After seven years your mission statement may have
changed. Ours remained pretty much the same, or rather came full circle.
We looked at the idea of power; the girl who had power that nobody
understood, living in high school and how hard that was. We came back to
that girl and that concept very strongly in the seventh season on
purpose because we knew it was our last.

In terms of the character, though, you can't say -- a lot of it has to
do with the actor. If you are working with an actor, and reading them at
all, and are making a show in which people change and don't just solve a
crime every week, inevitably that actor informs that character. It
happened very quickly with Willow becoming goofier and sexier, because
that's the way Alyson was. Giles' character became hipper because Tony
was not a stuffy guy. Sarah's became more thoughtful and intelligent.
Buffy also became a little bit closed off from the other characters, in
the same way that a star is kind of separated from an ensemble, so we
dealt with the idea of the isolation of the Slayer, of the person who
has to lead.

Some of that of course comes also from me -- because at the end of the
day I don't know how I'm going to evolve -- and as much as the actor,
the writer is the character. For seven years I've been Buffy. Some
people do plot in advance, but because my show is really about just
growing up and changing and growing, if you try and predict that too
heavily you stunt it, you don't feel a natural flow and the stories
start to feel forced.

Q. 10. If you were to continue with the same cast of Buffy for another
year, where would you like to go with it?

A. Honestly, if I had a strong answer for that question there probably
would be another season. I think it's time they all went their separate
ways. And so my answer is, I can't possibly think of anything, I'm
simply too tired. That's the end, thanks very much."

***********************

Could you please post more, I really miss you.
You always added such an interesting perspective and I miss that.

Also - do you know anything about getting into the business end of tv/film production? Like what qualifications, etc?
I ask because I remember you stating you were getting a graduate degree in Visual Narratives.

Thanks,

SK

[> Thanx for posting this S'kat, but can I ask one thing?... -- O'Cailleagh, 18:23:16 05/17/03 Sat

What is a WASP? Apart from a buzzy little insect that is.

O'Cailleagh

[> [> White Angelo Saxon Protestant -- WickedAcronym, 18:38:18 05/17/03 Sat

[> [> [> Re: White Angelo Saxon Protestant -- O'Cailleagh, 18:43:56 05/17/03 Sat

Thanks Wicked, I was beginning to think it was a cult of some kind...or possibly a fetish......

O'Cailleagh

[> [> [> [> Some people think it is. ;> -- WickedBuffy, 18:55:02 05/17/03 Sat

[> Re: Whedon answers questions: soul, redemption, etc for nytimes -- Mightor, 18:39:46 05/17/03 Sat

Very interesting. I think there were moments when altruistic acts of love did seem to exist even for a creature without a soul but as Joss said elsewhere, the soul in Buffy suited the writers' needs of the moment so its understandable that even the explanation of the soul is contradictory. Just do the dramatic scene of the moment and worry about other people either explaining it or explaining it away.

[> [> One does wonder sometimes if we are ...... -- s'kat, 20:04:22 05/17/03 Sat

reading far more into this than the writers intend. A friend recently accused me of overanalyzing Btvs and seeing far too much symbolism and meaning in it. She said that me and my online friends were probably cleverer and more intelligent than the writers who created it and the writers never intended half the stuff we found. They were just grinding out an hour of entertainment once a week.

It's silly I know, but part of me keeps hoping she's wrong.
Hence the reason for reading the interview. It's a painful thing being a fan.

Current board | More May 2003