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Buffy Studies on NPR! -- tim, 05:41:28 05/13/03 Tue

NPR's flagship news show All Things Considered is running an article this afternoon on the future of Buffy studies now that the show is going off the air. Thought everyone would like to know.

(If you miss it, or can't hear it where you are, it'll be posted on their web site by this time tomorrow at www.npr.org/atc.) Happy listening!

--th

[> Thanks. -- yez, 08:30:51 05/13/03 Tue

[> alright! thanks tim - should be interesting. -- WickedBuffy .. :>, 08:34:20 05/13/03 Tue

[> In the last half-hour, of course -- MaeveRigan, 14:45:42 05/13/03 Tue

I had to listen to the whole show, but if you're on the west coast, you don't have to unless you want to.

[> [> CORRECTION!--in the NEXT to last half hour -- MaeveRigan, 15:03:20 05/13/03 Tue

So very sorry! Hope no one misses it because of my mistake, but it *will* be posted on the website.

[> [> [> really? it was the last 1/2-hr. here in nyc -- anom, 15:15:50 05/13/03 Tue

But then again, WNYC rebroadcasts the 1st 1/2-hr. after the last one has aired.

Anyway, the story was pretty good (best line: Giles did for librarians what Indiana Jones did for archeologists!). It did limit itself to the academic world, but it reveals that academics may be in need of therapy after the series ends as much as we on the board will! Of course, there's some overlap between those 2 categories. My other favorite line was about how 1 of the academics interviewed got to talking about Buffy w/colleagues at a philosophy conference. One of them said they really should go back to discussing philosophy, but then they realized they already were! A clear tie-in to this board...maybe that should be their next story!

Oh, & Frisby--listen to this on the Web if you missed it on the radio--they talk about the Nietzche connection!

Something to pass the time: Which character were you most like in high school? -- Vash the Stampede, 08:40:45 05/13/03 Tue

This also applies to other characters who didn't go to Sunnydale High (Tara, Gunn, Lilah, any regular or reoccuring character)

I was most like Xander, although I was a worse dancer them him (still am actually lol). Unfortunatly though, I didn't have two close female friends that looked like Sarah and Alyson. Or a girlfriend who looked liked Anya :( Some guys have all the luck.

[> Snyder, unfortunately ;o) -- CW, 08:48:45 05/13/03 Tue

[> Willow, Willow, Willow (plus a little Darla - not the vampire, the MTV cartoon) -- dream, 08:48:55 05/13/03 Tue

[> [> that was Daria, NOT DarLa -- AngelVSAngelus, 09:51:16 05/13/03 Tue

Highschool for me went on at the same time AS the Scoobie's own highschool years, and I was every single one of them.
Xander's directness, social ineptitude, and fear of being anything like his parents (particularly his father).
Buffy's desire to fit in (though that went about Freshman year).
Willow's stammering and self esteem issues.
throw in Angel's broodiness, wardrobe, and desire to do something good on a grandscale because he thinks he's an irredeemable monster and you got a portrait of me two years ago.
Since then, oddly enough, I've grown into more humor, lighter clothing, and a plethora of friends at about the same rate Angel has. Go fig.

[> [> [> (Slapping forehead) Of course it was! Idiot! -- dream, 10:19:50 05/13/03 Tue

[> [> that was Daria, NOT DarLa -- AngelVSAngelus, 09:54:05 05/13/03 Tue

Highschool for me went on at the same time AS the Scoobie's own highschool years, and I was every single one of them.
Xander's directness, social ineptitude, and fear of being anything like his parents (particularly his father).
Buffy's desire to fit in (though that went about Freshman year).
Willow's stammering and self esteem issues.
throw in Angel's broodiness, wardrobe, and desire to do something good on a grandscale because he thinks he's an irredeemable monster and you got a portrait of me two years ago.
Since then, oddly enough, I've grown into more humor, lighter clothing, and a plethora of friends at about the same rate Angel has. Go fig.

[> [> My brother calls me Daria (I'd add "girly better-dressed Xander" into the mix) -- ponygirl, 10:40:59 05/13/03 Tue

[> Anya....But don't be scared, not anymore...;o) (NT) -- SS, 09:11:58 05/13/03 Tue

[> Oz...in a girly, always a little removed from the H.S. scene way -- Vesica, 09:25:10 05/13/03 Tue

[> Willow's scholarship mixed with Anya's bluntness. -- Rhys, 09:35:07 05/13/03 Tue

[> Heart of Xander, brain of Giles, body of Jonathan. -- cjl, 09:37:30 05/13/03 Tue

And maybe a bit of William/Spike--except I was a prose writer, not a poet.

[> [> I would say I was a mix of Xander, Willow, Jonathan, and Andrew. -- Rob, 09:53:16 05/13/03 Tue

[> [> [> And don't forget Buffy/Cordelia in their cheerleader modes... -- Random, 10:21:02 05/13/03 Tue

[> [> [> [> With Pom-poms -- LittleBit, 13:52:57 05/13/03 Tue

[> Vamp Holden...mostly in a "connected to an all-consuming evil" kind of way -- Random, who actually wanted to be Ethan Rayne, 09:49:50 05/13/03 Tue

Or maybe Owen Thurman, without the suicidal tendencies. Now that I think about it, though, I do kinda identify with the vampire who approaches Buffy and Willow at the beginning of "The Freshman" and takes off after seeing the weapons. I think he reminds me a lot of me as a high-school freshman and sophomore.

[> Combo of Willow, Anya, Dawn, with a little William the poet -- s'kat, 10:44:30 05/13/03 Tue

[> Combo of Oz and Ripper -- Vegeta, 11:15:33 05/13/03 Tue

[> I have no idea for me. But this is better than an MMPI for getting to know the rest of you! -- WickedNoClue (I think I got those letters right), 11:23:54 05/13/03 Tue

[> Truthfully? Buffy. -- deeva, 11:24:40 05/13/03 Tue

Only with black hair, more boyfriends and way less butt kicking and strappy tops. I would've said Cordelia but I wasn't that bitchy in H.S. I wasn't smart enough to be Willow. I might've said Xander but he was too happy-go-lucky to be me way back then.

On the other hand I thought I was a complete geek in H.S. and didn't really love it cause I didn't really fit in with any group. I kind of just flitted around the diiferent factions. I mean early on in freshman year I was in a clique that was popular but I had a falling out with the alpha girl. So that taught me something about being dependent vs. independent.

[> Jonathon mixed with Willow, with secret hopes of being Maggie Walsh.. -- MsGiles, 11:33:04 05/13/03 Tue

[> [> Have to go with the Jonathan/Willow combo as well, but I wanted to be Cordelia (or Buffy) -- purplegrrl, 10:54:15 05/14/03 Wed

[> Fun question! Definitely a combo of... -- Kate, 11:44:57 05/13/03 Tue

Buffy, Willow and Cordelia: Buffy's personality, Willow's academic drive, and Cordy's participation in extra-curricular activities with a little bit of social standing thrown in.

[> In highschool Xander, In College- SPIKE!! -- neaux, 12:01:07 05/13/03 Tue

Yeah I was a dorky geek in high school so I had Xander's dorkiness and Willow's Brain. But I was pretty social for someone who should have been anti-social. My class was really well rounded.. full of cliques but pretty friendly overall. Most ironically, the smarter you were the more popular you would be. My class strove to excel, so having brains went a long way.

As for college, I went nuts back in 1994 and dyed my hair crazy colors and by 1996 I had bleached my hair blond. No I wasnt trying to be Spike.. I looked more like SICKBOY from Trainspotting. But I did look a little vampiric with the dark eyebrows and bleached hair.

[> Re: Something to pass the time: Which character were you most like in high school? -- Mystery, 12:08:30 05/13/03 Tue

In high school? Um...I can't think of anyone I was most like. I was as goofy as Xander, but I was also a little bit like Faith, in the "comes and goes as I please/I'm a lone wolf" thing.

[> [> Rethinking it: Andrew's goofiness/weirdness with Faith's "I don't care attitude" -- Mystery, 12:17:28 05/13/03 Tue

[> willow, definitely...um, high-school willow, that is -- anom, 12:12:23 05/13/03 Tue

Without the magic or lesbian or, um, evil aspects that developed later, only a little less confident & a little more athletic (gymnastics club!). Smart, shy, picked on (more by the 2nd tier than by the popular Cordelia- or even Larry-types). Sure coulda used a friend like Buffy. Except for, y'know, the life-threatening aspects.

[> [> oh, and... -- anom, 15:21:32 05/13/03 Tue

"Smart, shy, picked on...."

...dateless. Let's not forget dateless. Of course, if I hadn't forgotten it, I wouldn't have to be drawing attention to it now...so maybe I can balance it with...what? High SAT scores? Better sense of humor? Lack of those out-of-left-field really strange comments? Oh--got it! No frog fear!

[> Willow, minus the looks and the motivation! -- mamcu, 12:16:40 05/13/03 Tue

I was definitely a proto-witch and proto-nerd, hung with a best pal/guy I secretly lusted for, was not in the in-group, etc.

No computers then, so my nerdiness was limited, and I cared 0 about grades, studying only what I liked (how I wound up teaching English--duh, do you think we CHOOSE this? It chooses us!) and I didn't have red hair--but it was long. I also probably dressed dorkily, but at the time I thought I looked good.

But I had a real Buffy side too, that came out later, big time. Civil rights and Vietnam brought out the non-violent slayer in me! Turns out I had an inner warrior, now channeled, sadly enough, into being a trouble-making administrator.

And after that went through a Faith period, including driving a motorcycle, etc. and various quaint attempts at wild living (alas, was before the time of tattoos, but most of the other good stuff had been invented--but all this was after high school.

So Willow on the outside and Buffy on the inside, with a little splash of Faith (and probably some underlying Jonathan as well!)

[> Willow, minus the looks and the motivation! -- mamcu, 12:18:05 05/13/03 Tue

I was definitely a proto-witch and proto-nerd, hung with a best pal/guy I secretly lusted for, was not in the in-group, etc.

No computers then, so my nerdiness was limited, and I cared 0 about grades, studying only what I liked (how I wound up teaching English--duh, do you think we CHOOSE this? It chooses us!) and I didn't have red hair--but it was long. I also probably dressed dorkily, but at the time I thought I looked good.

But I had a real Buffy side too, that came out later, big time. Civil rights and Vietnam brought out the non-violent slayer in me! Turns out I had an inner warrior, now channeled, sadly enough, into being a trouble-making administrator.

And after that went through a Faith period, including driving a motorcycle, etc. and various quaint attempts at wild living (alas, was before the time of tattoos, though most of the other good stuff had been invented)--but all this was after high school.

So Willow on the outside and Buffy on the inside, with a little splash of Faith (and probably some underlying Jonathan as well!)

[> Willow and Marcie in high school. -- Arethusa, 12:49:13 05/13/03 Tue

I was very quiet. I became like Tara, with a little Jenny Calender deep inside, as I got older.

[> Bizarre conflicted combo of Tara and Spike -- Dandy, 13:35:00 05/13/03 Tue

[> [> Oh, you gotta explain that one :) -- Vash the Stampede, 14:07:01 05/13/03 Tue

[> [> [> Ok, Vash gonna try -Spike on the inside, Tara on the outside -- Dandy, 14:55:28 05/13/03 Tue

[> [> [> [> Ok, this is just creepy. That's my combiation to. -- Doug, 16:00:14 05/13/03 Tue

[> [> [> [> [> Ah, not alone in the universe after all.............. -- Dandy, 16:48:03 05/13/03 Tue

[> I was so Marcie! -- Sara, are you sure you can see me?, 13:41:07 05/13/03 Tue

[> [> Re: I was so Marcie!...almost -- LittleBit, 14:30:21 05/13/03 Tue

If the entire size of my high school hadn't been only 600, I'd have been Marcie with Willow's brains. And annoying because I have Buffy's tendency to jump to a correct conclusion with no real concrete facts to back it up. ;)

[> [> So *very* Marcie, right down to the flute-playing. -- HonorH, 16:29:30 05/13/03 Tue

Never slashed any Beauty Queen faces, though. Much as I might've liked to.

[> [> Oh, I have to take Marcie, too. -- Rob, 07:56:14 05/14/03 Wed

[> [> There should be a club. -- Arethusa, 09:29:34 05/14/03 Wed

THe Sister/Brotherhood of Marcie, where nonentities by day become invisible crimefighters by night. Or by day, because of, you know, the invisibility thing. Flute playing optional.

[> [> [> But if we had a club we wouldn't be alienated and isolated anymore -- Sara, treasuring her alienation, 15:35:42 05/14/03 Wed

[> [> [> [> How about if none of us show up for the meetings? -- Arethusa, 05:03:42 05/15/03 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> Would we be able to tell? -- LittleBit, 06:27:17 05/15/03 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> Oh, no. That's the alienating part. -- Arethusa, 07:56:44 05/15/03 Thu

You can think everyone else is going but you, thereby breeding alienation and paranoia. A gift with purchase!

[> Faith -- Rook, 16:54:27 05/13/03 Tue

Except for the whole hot chick with superpowers thing. And about 10% more attitude.

[> Five for the price of one... -- Philistine, 19:44:35 05/13/03 Tue

Start with Cordy's unfailing tact and consideration for others, then add in the icy coolness of Snyder, Angel's sunny disposition, Xander's iron self-discipline, the dashing good looks of The Gentlemen, and wardrobe by the DiscoVamp from WttH (keep in mind this was about a decade before disco became cool again).

And I used to wonder why I couldn't get a date - maybe I should throw Joyce's capacity for denial into the mix as well.

[> Buffy....with a bit of Faith.....no pom poms....sorry.....;) -- Rufus, 20:22:24 05/13/03 Tue

[> Tara/Willow mainly -- Miss Edith, 13:07:43 05/14/03 Wed

I wasn't exactly friendless but I was so shy when it came to standing up to myself. Maybe a little Anya/Cordelia mixed in as I have no tact and I was always putting my foot in it. I wasn't Marcie as I always find that people who I don't even remember recognise me. I was the weird one in school who stuck out. I guess I made more of an impression than I ever planned too.

And the guy from Earshot who they thought was planning to blow up the school I had some of him mixed in. I used to have those dumb thoughts when sitting in class and write them down thinking how complex and deep I was being (yes I had a notebook just for quotes and thoughts heee).

Also chipped Spike from around the time he loved Buffy as I was always snarking on the in group with my friends, yet secretly wanted to be part of it. I always wince in sympathy with scenes like IWMTLY when he's thrown out of the magic box. Or in Forever when he tells Xander he liked Joyce because she didn't treat him like a freak, and Xander sneers "Her mistake". And maybe a little Drusilla mixed in there as well as sometimes I could be very odd and freak people out.

I was a complex individual.

[> I am quite Andrew in this senior year... -- Nitz the Bloody, 16:03:22 05/14/03 Wed

.....finishing up, I have to say that for most of this time, I've just been the guy in the background whose means of dealing with people is stupid geek jokes that nobody besides me gets.

Hopefully I'll be more like Oz in college. :)

It's official! Angel is back! thewb.com just post it. -- CW, 08:43:55 05/13/03 Tue

[> Yep! what they say if you really want to see it(S5 Casting Spoiler) -- s'kat, 09:07:47 05/13/03 Tue

http://www.thewb.com/Shows/Special/0,11116,114399||,00.html

"Being undead for a few centuries and cursed with a soul, Angel has a unique perspective - and tons of free time. So, what does this righteous man do to pass the centuries? Put a team together and go vigilante on the City of Angels, which has become a lot less safe since evil demons and their scary minions started buying up all the real estate.
Last season, Angel narrowly managed to stop the apocalypse, which begs the question, "Where do we go from here?" Well, Angel reunites with Wesley, Fred, Lorne, Gunn (and SPIKE!) - to take over the L.A. office of a formerly evil and currently annihilated law firm. Of course, there's always a hitch. (What do you expect from demonic lawyers?) And a few surprises... like visits from some of the Sunnydale gang.
Executive producer Joss Whedon, co-executive producer Jeffery Bell and consulting producer David Greenwalt with Twentieth Television. "

Who-Hoo!!! Very happy about this.

Oh the front page is interesting - they state that "if you were worried about Angel? Don't be he's back." Or wondering about taking a night class Wed night. Don't since Smallville proceeds Angel.

Also in an interview with David Greenwalt - he states he has confidence that Angel could live for at least three more seasons.

[> [> What absolutely astounds me.... -- cjl, 09:22:40 05/13/03 Tue

Is that they've moved SMALLVILLE into the 8:00 p.m. slot as ANGEL's lead-in. I thought they'd move ANGEL back to Sunday and use SMALLVILLE as a booster for one the WB's "hot" new dramas like "Tarzan and Jane" or (gag) "Young MacGuyver."

The Smallville/Angel (Superman/Batman) combo--which is so logical, I can't believe the WB actually did it--shows actual faith in Angel as a potential ratings success.

As Xander might say: "And again with the astound-ment."

[> [> [> Re: What absolutely astounds me.... -- s'kat, 10:36:40 05/13/03 Tue

Actually this works logically - because remember, Angel has only 22 episodes a year. So in hiatus periods? You can try out new shows right after Smallville. Also it's a way of testing the waters - can Angel build on Smallville's younger audience demographic? Or will it lose steam?
This is the best way to see if Angel deserves a 6th Season renewal and it's what I'd do if I were uncertain about Angel's demographics and ratings potential.

Plus if Tarzan and Jane tanks - you can always flip Angel back to Sundays and throw a mid-season replacement in the Angel slot.

At any rate, didn't surprise me that much.

[> [> [> [> And in the process *never* having Angel re-runs -- Masq, 11:13:02 05/13/03 Tue

Don't forget to set your vcr's very carefully, or you might have to wait until syndication catches up with you before you ever see an episode twice.

having issues... having issues... having issues...

[> [> [> [> [> But on the plus side... -- Kate, 11:21:05 05/13/03 Tue

For those of us who also watch "Alias," no conflict between them anymore. That's what thrilled me when "Angel" moved mid-season this year. Right now "Angel" and "Alias" are the only 2 shows I plan on watching next season and if they had been on the same night, same time again it would have, as Faith said, blown! :)

[> [> [> [> [> [> You had it easy! I had Sopranos, Alias, and Angel all on at the same time earlier this year! -- Rob, 11:47:22 05/13/03 Tue

[> [> [> [> [> Re: And in the process *never* having Angel re-runs -- s'kat, 11:42:30 05/13/03 Tue

Don't forget to set your vcr's very carefully, or you might have to wait until syndication catches up with you before you ever see an episode twice.

Right there with you, Masq. Ugh.

The WB claimed that Angel didn't do well in reruns in one interview prior to the renewal. I was like...uhm..what reruns?? When have you really done any re-runs?? How can you tell if you don't do them, you nits??

Sigh. Dang it. On the bright side - TNT will start showing Angel reruns on Weekends this Fall and I'm willing to bet that the whole syndication thing was a huge part of this deal.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Syndication and re-runs -- Masq, 12:19:11 05/13/03 Tue

I think it's a wonder Angel is in syndication at all. I read an article about how "Charmed" got picked up for syndication almost instantly because the episodes are so "self-contained". Read: non arcy. And of course, Angel is full of arcy goodness.

But that's EXACTLY why it needs re-runs and syndication. So people can catch up on the back story. I'm glad there will be syndication.

I fear for an Angel season 5 that is supposed to be more "self-contained". It's got way too much history--good history--for that.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Exactly! (with S4 spoilers) -- Valheru, 12:47:14 05/13/03 Tue

How many re-runs did we get this year? "Deep Down", "Ground State", and "THAW"? And did they have re-runs during last summer (I can't remember)? I do remember when they tried doing an Angel: Beginnings type thing on the weekend, but they arbitrarily started at the Pylea arc, which doesn't make a lot of sense unless you see the episodes previous to it, then they dropped it after two weeks.

AtS (especially this year) is a show that is highly reliant on the serial format. Could a newbie start watching the show with "Apocalypse Nowish" and understand half of it? Do Angelus's psychological dissections in "Soulless" do anything to the viewer who doesn't know anything about the recent events of the characters? Wouldn't a person who last saw AtS in S3 have a totally WTF moment with Cordelia in "Inside Out"? Is "Peace Out" anything more than a cheap "Invasion of the Body Snatchers" cliche to anyone who didn't see AI struggle for peace against the Beast, Angelus, and EvilCordy, or Angel's season-long attempts to reform Connor? And anyone who never saw the beginning of "Deep Down" would never get that extra layer of resonance in the last scene of "Home". It's like 24: if you miss an episode, you're in trouble, but if you miss two, you might not even bother watching until you can catch up with re-runs.

Re-runs would help to solidify the viewership. It's like the comic book system: if you pick up a comic you've never read before, really like it but are a bit confused on backstory, you can always pick up back issues or trade paperbacks. AtS is like a comic that you can never find back issues for, so you eventually give up on understanding it and stop watching.

Why the WB never EasyViewed AtS is beyond me. I can understand doing the Beginnings of Gilmore Girls and 7th Heaven, but repeating the current week's Smallville and Everwood? What is the Smallville demographic watching on Tuesdays that they have to watch it on Sunday afternoons? And is anyone really going to be confused if they miss an episode? (Well, maybe one or two episodes this year were heavy on the meta-arc.) Heck, Dawson's Creek needed EasyView more desperately than that. EasyView is a brilliant idea that the WB is totally squandering.

The TNT syndication will help a lot, I expect. Think of all the people who can catch up on 4 seasons of backstory and then watch the WB episodes and understand them? Even I'll begin to enjoy AtS more, since I missed the whole Angel disillusionment/epiphany arc in S2 and don't have S2 or the first 3/4 of S3 on tape.

The downside is, now that Smallville is the lead-in, the show is in syndication, it has an intriguing new direction, and James Marsters has joined the cast, if Angel's ratings don't improve significantly next year, that's it for the show and maybe even spell doom for the BtVS spinoff. This is Joss's make-or-break season.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Exactly! (with S4 spoilers) -- Laura, 23:27:39 05/13/03 Tue

The few reruns they do are always in the same season which are very frustrating for people like me. I missed a lot of season one, because I didn't know about Angel for ages. It is unfair to new viewers as well as ones like me.

[> [> [> [> [> ATS reruns are like a stake in the WB's heart -- death, 15:56:48 05/13/03 Tue

The WB does, (or at least has), shown ATS reruns, and the ratings are abysmal. Go to http://home.insightbb.com/~wahoskem/buffy.html and check out the ratings for season 3 of ATS. The most telling column for compariaons is the Rank: All WB Shows. There are numbers like 4 of 12, 6 of 11, 5 of 16. Twice last year, it even ranked 2 of all WB shows.

Now, check out the same column for the Summer of 2002 listings. 15/16, 19/19, 17/17. ATS was either last or second to last 12 times out of 19 weeks. I don't recall if The WB had any summer replacement shows last year, but the majority of the other WB shows were also in reruns, so it's not like ATS was getting killed by first run programming.

BTVS also underperforms in reruns. I suspect it is because a significant portion of the fan base for Whedon shows record them, and therefore don't tune into the reruns. These two shows are probably re-watched as much or more than any other shows in television history, but it's done off of tapes, which does the network's ratings no good.

The reason reruns are critical is that under the typical contract between network and studio, the reruns are effectively free to the network. The network buys an episode for the contracted amount, and gets the rights for either 3 or 4 showings of it. That equates to one first run and either 2 or 3 reruns. If the show does well in reruns, the network gets good add revenue without spending any money. If the show tanks in reruns, they are pretty much limited to the revenue from the first run only.

[> [> [> Here's the press release that partly explains...(WKCS S5 Spoiler). -- s'kat, 11:58:37 05/13/03 Tue

"SMALLVILLE," THE WB'S MOST-WATCHED SERIES, RELOCATES TO WEDNESDAY AND JOINS FORCES WITH CRITICAL DARLING "ANGEL," RETURNING FOR A FIFTH SEASON

ANGEL AND SPIKE ARE REUNITED, ALONG WITH SURPRISE VISITS FROM OTHER MEMBERS OF THE VAMPIRE/SLAYER ALUMNI
"WEDNESDAY NIGHTS TAKE A SUPERNATURAL TURN WHEN "SMALLVILLE" AND "ANGEL" TEAM UP FOR AN EVENING OF POWERFUL DRAMA

Clark Kent (Tom Welling) meets the vampire with a soul in the new Wednesday night lineup of hit drama SMALLVILLE followed by critical favorite ANGEL. The WB's highest-rated program, SMALLVILLE scored 9 of the 10 highest adult 18-34 single-episode deliveries ever for the network last season. ANGEL scored on two different nights this past season, delivering double-digit time period gains in nearly every key demo, with the largest gains in the male demos. In the fall, Angel (David Boreanaz) will be reunited with his fellow vampire Spike (James Marsters).

"Moving our number one show, 'Smallville,' to lead off Wednesday is a move we're confident will anchor a critical night for years to come, just as 'Dawson's Creek' did," said Mr. Levin. "Paired with 'Angel,' the show viewers and critics begged us to return, we have a formidable action-fantasy block with massive male appeal and stars women and teens love as well. In addition, James Marsters will join Angel as Spike, and other visitors from Sunnydale will be seen in Joss Whedon's world, which will take an uptown turn out of the darkness this fall."

http://www.thewb.com/PressRelease/I...,114614,00.html

Caps aren't mine but the press releases. And they make huge point of Angel being their critical darling. It is by the way - the critics loved just about every episode this season and have to say? I agree with them. Ats has rocked.

[> [> Hmmm... -- Masq, 09:23:25 05/13/03 Tue

From the graphic, I'm thinking maybe they'll finally have an episode on the origins of that tattoo?

[> [> Potential casting spoilers -- dms, 16:40:13 05/13/03 Tue

Date Posted: 16:12:03 05/13/03 Tue
Author: dms
Subject: And apparently CC isn't coming back at all, so
In reply to: s'kat 's message, "Yep! what they say if you really want to see it(S5 Casting Spoiler)" on 16:12:03 05/13/03 Tue

it looks like it's going to be "Five Guys and Fred" (TM someone).

Note from Masq: It's only a casting spoiler if it's true, and in this case, I believe it's false. CC is coming back as a recurring character, not in the credits, and not in every ep.

Is that considered a spoiler? Can someone erase the post if it is?

[> [> [> Re: Potential casting spoilers -- Akita, 19:35:31 05/13/03 Tue

"t looks like it's going to be "Five Guys and Fred" (TM someone)."

LOL. I actually was quoted on the ATP. TM Nancy Tague, aka
Akita.

Wicca site recommendations? -- rowena, 09:11:21 05/13/03 Tue

Could anyone recommend some good Wiccan Web sites? Thanks in advance!

[> Re: Wicca site recommendations? -- leslie, 09:27:53 05/13/03 Tue

www.witchvox.com is one of the biggies--news, commentary, discussion.

[> [> Leslie beat me to it... -- Wisewoman, 11:01:18 05/13/03 Tue

witch.vox is the best, plus has links to lots of other good sites.

;o)

[> [> [> Thank you both! -- rowena, 13:21:20 05/13/03 Tue

Oh. My. God. ("End of Days" spoilers) -- Rob, 18:09:48 05/13/03 Tue

Dawn killed Miss Kitty Fantastico!!!!!

Rob

[> Huh? -- dub (hopelessly confused), 18:16:54 05/13/03 Tue

[> [> Re: Huh? -- Rob, 20:57:52 05/13/03 Tue

Dawn said she couldn't use a crossbow ever since that "unfortunate incident with Miss Kitty Fantastico." :(

Rob

[> No! Vicious lie! She just said there was an incident! -- Random, 18:25:33 05/13/03 Tue

I choose to interpret that as a near-miss. Stop spreading such nasty over-interpretations! Shame, Rob, shame!

[> Re: Oh. My. God. ("End of Days" spoilers) -- Corwin of Amber, 20:14:56 05/13/03 Tue

Actually, I think Miss Kitty Fantastico got ahold of Dawn's crossbow, and went on a killing spree. Poor thing had to be put down.

[> [> I like this theory. -- HonorH (who never trusts cats), 23:11:47 05/13/03 Tue

[> I went to the exact same thought, Rob! Mebbe Joss is tying up little loose ends. -- WickedBuffy, 21:28:42 05/13/03 Tue

[> I'm amazed this exact same topic popped up 8 posts after yours. -- WickedBuffy ... ::learning a very valuable lesson::, 10:51:08 05/14/03 Wed

[> I'm amazed this exact same topic popped up 8 posts after yours. -- WickedBuffy ... ::learning a very valuable lesson::, 10:52:40 05/14/03 Wed

Just saw Buffy! -- Dandy, 18:16:42 05/13/03 Tue

I loved it. Spoilers are a waste of time. They can't tell you how you're going to feel about somethhing. How you will interpret it.

I loved Buffy running over to Angel and kissing him. It redeemed her for me as a character. She is able to love fully and spontaneously. She just hasn't been able to because Angel has always been the one.

I was so happy to see her able to love again and David was adorable.

I love Spike and his story but I always see it as seperate from Buffy's. They were not a couple. Just two people struggling thru things.

Let Spike become a hero and go on to LA to find his one true love.

[> Re: Oops, make that saw -- Dandy, 18:22:30 05/13/03 Tue

[> Re: Spoilers 7.21 and Ats S5 casting above and in this post -- Julie, 19:07:52 05/13/03 Tue

I had the exact opposite reaction & I felt a bit jerked around as a viewer as ME gets maximum milage out of the B/A/S love triangle -- to be continued, very likely, on Ats next year. Angel sweeps in and we see the spontaneous and full of love Buffy we've been waiting two years to see. The support and love of her friends who have stuck their unchosen, mortal necks out for her for the last seven years could not accomplish what Angel could (despite leaving her and folding back time, without her consent). I have no problem with her not being in love with Spike, but, I thought(until tonight) she had moved on from Angel. If "Angel has always been the one", IMO, the grown-up, heroic thing to do would have been to fight for that love. If anyone was redeemed for me in this ep, it was Anya--her speech gave me goosebumps!

[> [> Agree!!! My chain feels SO yanked! -- graylady, 19:50:11 05/13/03 Tue

[> [> Re: Spoilers 7.21 and Ats S5 casting above and in this post -- Kate, 19:51:39 05/13/03 Tue

Julie - I hear you and would tend to agree with what you are saying. The only thing holding me back from a rant is a) that was a hot kiss (and also spontaneous, which I think might be important) and b) I trust JW and ME. So far with these last few episode, imho, I have been given so much of what I wanted to see discussed and/or happen that I never thought would so I don't think the B/A kiss tonight is as black & white as that. Otherwise, that would completely demean what happened between Buffy and Spike earlier in the episode and I don't think Joss would do that to us. Just my initial thoughts anyway.

I love Buffy&Angel and I love Buffy&Spike so the last scene was like a double edge sword for me. On the one hand, seeing Buffy and Angel together again reminded me of why I fell in love with their love story in the first place and how good they (and the actors) are together. On the other hand, having to watch Spike watch them was heartbreaking and so unfair to him. But I am hopeful for a satisfactory resolution.

[> [> [> Brief Spike speculation -- Valheru, 23:31:24 05/13/03 Tue

When I saw that last image of Spike and the FE, I was sort of angry at ME. Spike's awkward "morning after" talk with Buffy led me to believe that there was something brewing between them. But then I remembered Spike's speech from "Touched": "When I tell you that I love you, it's not because I want you, or 'cause I can't have you." Spike and Buffy aren't Spuffy anymore. If anything, Spike's love toward her now is more in line with Xander's in S2 (or Xander's love toward Willow post-"Lover's Walk"). Sure, he'd crap a brick if she would give herself to him, but I think Spike now knows that circumstances (that have nothing to do with him being evil) make that a pretty far-fetched possibility. It's just enough for him that he is able to love her, unconditionally, and that she is able to platonically love him in return.

Here's where the spec comes in: I think the ending of "EoD" is a red herring. We're supposed to think that Spike will fly into jealous revenge. But maybe Spike is turning the tables on the FE, making it believe that he's on the side of evil just so he can get close to learn the big plan. Once again, he's acting as a sleeper, only this time, on his own free will for the white hats.

Remember, even though we don't see Spike going to the graveyard with Buffy, he did tell her in the house that he would follow her. So Buffy has to be pretty dumb or cruelly brash to get kissy with Angel while Spike is nearby.

[> [> [> [> Re: Brief Spike speculation -- Kate, 05:46:35 05/14/03 Wed

Oooo...Valheru...ITA about the ending being a 'red herring.' Because I completely agree it would throw everything out that Spike has been through since last year if he went into a jealous rage. I at least throught he was going to tell the FE to F-off, but the rest of your speculation has great merrit. Now *that* would be cool!

[> [> [> [> Re: Brief Spike speculation -- leslie, 11:01:47 05/14/03 Wed

I'm with you up to the end: "So Buffy has to be pretty dumb or cruelly brash to get kissy with Angel while Spike is nearby."

I don't think it was anything she thought about before hand--it was, as has been already pointed out, completely spontaneous.

[> [> Very interesting. That is how I thought I would feel until I saw it -- Dandy, 19:51:56 05/13/03 Tue

Of course there is the commercial aspect of promoting Angel but I also tend to believe that it is part of Joss' bigger plan to have the Angel series end with Buffy and Angel finally being able to be together. I think it is part of ME saying that they do believe in love. The reference to the Aurthurian legends is a very romantic one. Buffy deserves it. I don't think Buffy and Angel have a love you 'move' on from. Too modern a concept. I believe they represent true love in the Buffyverse. Get rid of that pesky curse, voila, no couples therapy needed.

It is interesting that you say she should fight for her love. How do you think she should have fought for it? What could she have done? Angel's curse has been the one big bad she could not defeat. Because it's his battle. These two represent having to make your mark in the world before you can settle down and love someone.

I adore Spike and I loved the story they told of his journey but Buffy doesn't have to love him because he tried so hard. The heart wants what it wants and hers always, unreservedly wanted Angel. That's my take on it anyway. I think the character of Buffy deserves her reward and I think it wraps up the story of the Buffyverse on a much more positive note. We do believe in love. Love is real. It can work. Just sayin'.........

Probably a whole lotta people are going to hate this because they love Spike. I love Spike too. I'd just like to see him find someone who totally adores and respects him and fawns all over him. Bufffy's a nasty cold thing to him. He deserves better.

[> [> [> My difficulty with this -- s'kat, 22:16:53 05/13/03 Tue

I think a lot of us who have troubles with B/A used to be B/A shippers but have moved on. (And no I don't want her to end up with Spike either - I personally think she is bad for him. So this have absolutely NOTHING to do with B/S.)Angel hasn't fought by Buffy's side since S3, which was four years ago, he doesn't know all her friends, he isn't part of her life. She hasn't fought by his side, doesn't know his friends, and isn't part of his life. She doesn't know about Connor. He doesn't know about Dawn.

All these two have in common any more is a bunch of memories from Buffy's high school years. And the funny thing about memories is they look really glossy in retrospect, with tons of techno-color and nice lightening. You tend to romanticize the past, remember the good stuff forget the bad. Buffy and Angel haven't spoken as far as I know in two years. She doesn't know he lost his soul - Faith does. Heck Faith knows Angel better than Buffy does. B/A barely spoke or interacted during S4 or S5.
She doesn't know about Darla, she doesn't know about Cordelia, or Connor, or Wes, or Jasmine. And Angel? He doesn't know about Glory, or Riley/Sam, or Spike, or Adam, or Willow going dark, or Spike getting a soul, or Anya becoming a vengeance demon and not marrying Xander or how buffy almost killed her friends. What do they have to talk about? They can't sleep together. Reminsce about the old days??

So how can they be in love? How is this a relationship that is anything other than a really pretty romantic dream? A teenage memory? If Angel had worked and fought beside her for the last four years and she had worked and fought beside him? Yeah, I'd buy it, heck I'd be all for it. I was passionately for it all the way up to and including Yoko Factor. Even a little bit in Forever. But not now. Because they haven't talked or done anything much outside of that one very brief reunion in S6 that happened off-screen and I still don't know what happened during. Love is struggling with each other on a day by day basis, dealing with each others crap. Xander and Anya, Willow and Tara, heck even Wes and Lilah and Fred and Gunn had much more realistic love relationships.

It's easy to feel all pitter patt and be romantically in love with someone - when they come in with billowy cape and knock out the bad guy with one punch and tell you how great you are. A lot harder to love someone who you see make mistakes and calls you on your shit. Buffy has never really seen Angels, just Angelus. She doesn't know Angel. Cordelia knew Angel. Angel doesn't know Buffy. Spike knew Buffy. Buffy and Angel's romance is the romantic ideal - the hallmark card, the valentine's day advertisment, the box of chocolats, but it can never ever be real - its an illusion, soft and puffery and lovely.

Now before I get blasted by people who say high-school romances can work and aren't like that- I agree they can and do. Heck my brother has a very long-lasting relationship with his first love, who he meet in high school and yes they had a long-distance relationship while in high school, but they were in constant contact and once out? They lived together. They work together. Those relationships work because people stay together. Xander knows Buffy better than Angel does. Xander has known her since Season 1, he has worked by her side, he has fought by her, he lost an eye beside her. He housed Spike. He helped rebuild her house. He buried her and he brought her back to life. He helped her save the world from Willow and worked beside her all summer.Where was Angel during these events? In LA or at the bottom of the ocean or dealing with his son or mooning after Cordelia.

We all have first loves. But if you haven't seen your first love for two years or really spoken to them or seen any part of their life... how can you be in love with them? Are you? Or are you in love with the guy you used to know? People do change. They don't stay static. And to be honest, I'm not convinced they really knew each other in high school, I've rewatched all those episodes and they spend a lot of time cuddling and chatting but Angel remains outside the frame outside her life. And she seems to know very little about who or what he is. She loves who she believes him to be. Which is something very different.

I just find the concept of B/A riding off into the sunset right now or at the end of Angel to be a teenagers fantasy and isn't this a story about growing up? It's not like Anita Blake Vampire Hunter who is continuously in contact with Jean-Claude or even like Willow who so desperately loved Tara.
Now if B/A had ended up together in S3 or S4 or even S5 maybe..I would have bought it. I'd have been cheering. But not now.

Too much has happened in these peoples lives for me to buy that they are still "in" love or should be together. I'd need at least a year of them living in close proximity to buy into that. Watching them argue. Watching them struggle. Like Cordy and Angel have the last three years or Xander and Anya or Tara and Willow.

I'm personally hoping that Joss Whedon sticks to his vow which he stated ages ago in an interview that you don't give the audience the romantic ending - you don't put Sam and Diane together. You go with the pain. If he does anything less than his word on this? I will wonder if he was creating "reality" and "art" or just a teen sci-fantasy romance novel for television. Is Buffy really just a teen soap opera with fangs? I don't think so. But the view that Buffy will end up with her high school sweet-heart who she hasn't seen in ages...might change my mind.

[> [> [> [> Totally agree S'kat -- yabyumpan, 22:37:41 05/13/03 Tue

My main problem with this is that it seems to throw out the window most of the character growth for both of them in the last four years. I just hope JW finds a way through this that isn't to the detriment of EITHER character. BtVS is finishing, AtS isn't. I think Angel/DB deserves to be able to evolve without having the shadow of Buffy constantly there.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Totally agree S'kat -- s'kat, 23:14:36 05/13/03 Tue

I think Angel/DB deserves to be able to evolve without having the shadow of Buffy constantly there.

I agree. I really really hope that ME doesn't take Gellar up on her offer to do guest shots on Angel. I don't want Sunnydale innundating LA. As excited as I am about next year, the teaser that Sunnydale residents will be making guest shots, worries me a little. Angel has finally found its own legs and become a separate show - please let it continue.

[> [> [> [> Oh, bless you! Now I needn't bother typing any of that myself. -- Simone, 22:39:50 05/13/03 Tue

[> [> [> [> [> Oh, hell with it. I have something to add anyway (spoilers for AtS finale). -- Simone, 23:11:44 05/13/03 Tue

Y'know, everything that's wrong with this B&A4EVA! picture is right there in that scene, underneath the pretty, shiny surface. Here's Angel sweeping into town, all snarky and seemingly carefree and "Hey, I love watching you kick ass." Here's Buffy all glowy and "My hero!" But does she know that he's just given up his son in order to save him? Does she know that he's just essentially made a deal with the devil in order to do it? Does she have any clue about what must - despite appearances to the contrary - be going on inside Angel right now? No. She doesn't.

So, while I can see the superficial romantic appeal, there's no substance there for me. It's just not real. I hope that ME is not seriously trying to convince me that it is. For the time being, I'll just assume this is all about paying homage to the character of Angel and what he meant to the Buffyverse (and, let's face it, an attempt to boost the ratings a bit), which is fine by me.

[> [> [> [> Re: My difficulty with this -- HonorH, 23:10:27 05/13/03 Tue

I agree with you, s'kat. However, I also liked the B/A kiss in this episode. It's easy for Angel and Buffy to fall back into their old relationship as lovers, and I think that's what happened. He showed up, she was happy to see him, he was happy to see her, they both felt the old feelings again, and they kissed. Easy. If they had more time together, who knows what would happen? Would they clash, now that Angel's no longer willing to be in the subordinate position (which he always was before, let's face it)? Would they fall in love again, deeper than ever?

No one can say. But the kiss was to be expected. As for Spike seeing it, we'll have to wait and see how that plays out. Is he going to like it? No. Will it be an issue? Probably. Will he let it drive him to the dark side? I think not (unspoiled). Fact is, though, you couldn't have Angel in town for any length of time and not have this be an issue. Absolutely couldn't. So it all depends on the handling if it really is chain-yanking, or if it's just another something they have to deal with on their way to the apocalypse.

[> [> [> [> [> Simone and HH, read Rufus above! And... -- s'kat, 23:23:42 05/13/03 Tue

Rufus addresses this issue far better.

But I think for what it's worth - the kiss was there for two reasons:

1. For Buffy

2. For Spike

It's Becoming - possibly the inverse of Becoming, when Spike went to help Buffy because Angelus was with Dru and he wanted Dru back. The question is? How will Spike deal with it? Will he slip back to his old ways? The soap opera cliche of the jealous lover betrays heroine? Or will he grow up and fight to be a better man?

I think the kiss and Spike's look are misleads.
But I could be wrong.

[> [> [> [> Now let's not get all shirty about this kiss. -- Buffyboy, 01:07:24 05/14/03 Wed

Sometimes a kiss is just a kiss. I have no doubt (unspoiled) that Buffy will not end up riding off into the sunset with Angel at the end of next week's episode. You're right, it makes no narrative sense whatsoever. Yes, I'm sure Spike will grumble some about the kiss, but that's just about it. The main dramatic confrontation in next week's episode is sure to be between Buffy and the First/Caleb. Here, what the Guardian said to Buffy will, I think, be far more important than any kiss: "But you already have weapons." Buffy already has the "weapons" to defeat the First. And I suspect that these "weapons" must be her, *all* of her friends, and their collective powers.

[> [> [> [> Re: My difficulty with this -- Freki, 05:32:35 05/14/03 Wed

The whole scene was shot as a romantic fantasy. There were the soft focus shots of Angel, the lighting, Angel knocking Caleb down long enough for he and Buffy to have a conversation when Caleb has been shrugging off blows from Buffy, Faith and Spike, the sappy music over the kiss. It was like Andrew's Harlequin romance view of Buffy in Storyteller. I sincerely hope we're not supposed to take it seriously.

[> [> [> [> Re: My difficulty with this -- leslie, 13:15:13 05/14/03 Wed

First of all, we've only seen one, greeting kiss, and I am going to live in denial that that's as far as it goes until I see otherwise...

I always had the feeling that the reunion between Angel and Buffy after she returned from heaven was an acknowledgment on both their parts that they live different lives now; certainly Buffy's withdrawn and depressed demeanor when she returned didn't indicate that it was all hearts and flowers. What I really hope is that now they fight together and also acknowledge publically that it is over--that they are now the friends that Spike said they'd never be.

And this is my feeling on Spike: if the series were continuing and there were the possibility of seeing Buffy and Spike together, I would LOVE to see them trying to work out as a couple, but since it isn't and they can't, I don't want to see a "Oh now I realize that you are my one true love" conclusion. Yeah, that would set up a lot of pain, but it would also really be a major cop-out, I think. "Oh, so now you tell me, when there's no fear you'll ever have to put your money where your mouth is?" (Oig. Given their past relationship, that may not be the best choice of phrase.)

I'll tell you the one thing that disturbed me about Angel's reappearance. I get the whole "let me fight this battle on my own" thing, but Jesus, she was really getting pounded, and he's just standing there watching like it's the WWF? Couldn't we have at least seen him look concerned, look like he wanted to join in but was restraining himself? Five seconds of screen time is all it needed, surely they could have found it somewhere. As it was, it really made me think that Angel didn't have the slightest clue what was going on, what was at stake, and what Buffy has been going through.

[> [> [> [> [> A BIG difference between B/A and B/S -- WickedBuffy, 21:19:25 05/14/03 Wed

"I'll tell you the one thing that disturbed me about Angel's reappearance. I get the whole "let me fight this battle on my own" thing, but Jesus, she was really getting pounded, and he's just standing there watching like it's the WWF?"

That really highlighted one of the huge differences between B/A and B/S. Spike wouldn't have been able to just watch her get hurt - he would have jumped in and helped, even if it made Buffy angry.

[> [> My issue... -- dream, 06:05:08 05/14/03 Wed

with this episode was that a lot of great stuff happened and now we're going to spend the next week hearing about who should get Buffy, Angel or Spike. This is a heroic journey, not a romance, and I don't like all this focus on Buffy's love life at this late point. Give me prophetic dreams, give me the First Slayer, but don't give me a love triangle as my cliffhanger.

I do think it's a mislead, but I also think it's a waste of time.

[> [> [> I get everybody's points, but... ("End of Days", AtS S5 WKCS) -- Rob, 07:49:02 05/14/03 Wed

...in the interest of coming full circle with the story, I think it's important to return to B/A for a short while. Because with Spike going on to AtS this year, this issues have to be addressed. And there is the fact that the long-term reasons Buffy and Angel aren't together (besides the happiness clause) are not keeping her from falling for Spike. Joss said in an interview that B/A have a "transcendent" love, because they were each other's first. Some part of them, even when they have moved on, are still in love or at the least, feel that spark and connection. I think the kiss was almost a reflex. I don't think they're going to be lovey-dovey for the rest of the show. Guess we'll have to wait till next week to see, though. But again I think an important thing to make it a true last episode is to come full-circle and the B/A kiss is part of that.

Rob

[> [> [> [> True. But it could have been dealt with mid-show... -- dream, 07:58:12 05/14/03 Wed

rather than as a cliff-hanger. The positioning of the Angel/Spike business gave it too much importance in my mind.

[> [> [> [> [> No cross-overs were allowed until recently. -- pragmatic, 10:01:48 05/14/03 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> [> I meant the middle of last night's episode, not the season -- dream, 10:18:09 05/14/03 Wed

[> [> [> Re: My issue... -- shyone, 10:23:32 05/14/03 Wed

It seems like the presence of the FE (speaking to Spike) is the real cliffhanger, not the love triangle. What do you think?

[> [> [> [> Probably true -- dream, 10:50:29 05/14/03 Wed

Maybe I'm just overreacting, because the people I was watching with starting in immediately on an argument about whether Buffy should "end up" with Angel or Spike, and I was just horrified. I do think the FE speaking to Spike is the bigger cliffhanger - but I'm also not much worried about Spike's responses. It just seemed like the placement of that scene at the end of the episode highlighted shippy concerns, at the expense of the much larger and more interesting things that were going on in what was otherwise one of the best episodes we've had all season.

OHMYGODSOMUCHSTUFFLOVEDITALLPLEASECALMDOWNBEATINGHEART!!!!!(Spoilers for "End of Days" and promo) -- Finn Mac Cool, 18:34:00 05/13/03 Tue

No!!!! Please don't let Andrew and Anya kiss!!! Oh, didn't. But great Anya speech!!! Love it!!! Anya's views on humanity!!! "Perfect woman!" Wheelchairs!!! LOL Angel a little off, but loved "You are so gonna lose"!!! Last Shot!!! Spike es perfecto, "what a bitch, huh?" Xander muy creepy!! Where'd Dawn get taser? Probly standard for a Slayer's car. Love Giles Willow research!!! Three Turok-Han! One, two, three and Buffy knocks em down!!! "Oh, dang." No potentials died? WAH!! Spike's sentimental speech! Shirty! LOL Xander Buffy bonding!! Go Dawnie!!! Caleb ain't dead, girl!!! He'll be back, and his Turok-Han, too!!! So - much - overload - LOL - ohmygod - please - BUFFY! - don't stop!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'll be more coherant later, I promise.

[> Yep, that pretty much covers it. -- dub ;o), 18:37:39 05/13/03 Tue

[> Quick! Give that man some Oxygen. -- cougar, 21:03:40 05/13/03 Tue

[> [> Oxygen, nothing. Where's the tranq gun? -- HonorH, 22:46:55 05/13/03 Tue

Did you see what Spike was wearing? (spoilers for promo/final episode) -- Vash the Stampede, 19:35:28 05/13/03 Tue

If I am not mistaken, Spike is wearing that amulet thing that Angel got from Lilah in Home. I wonder what it does? It better not turn him human or anything, though, I want him to stay a vampire, or at least supernatural.

Vash

[> Re: Did you see what Spike was wearing? (spoilers for finalespromo) -- WIckedBuffy, 09:15:58 05/14/03 Wed

Yes, I saw it too.
He looked like he was going though alot of pain - as if someone was reaching into him and pulling something out.

WTF??? Just saw "Home". Wow, my brain is blown! -- Scroll, 19:53:33 05/13/03 Tue

Oh. My. God. I can't believe what happened. Lilah! Connor! Angel! Holy f*ck! I actually said that as soon as "Executive Producer Joss Whedon" appeared on the screen. This is just... wow...

This changes everything! I can't believe Angel did that! Poor Connor, he's totally moved beyond woobie status. I just wanted his pain to end. While I don't know if Angel did the right thing, it seemed like it was the only thing Angel could do for him at all. So I guess this is the end of "Connor". I have no knowledge of casting spoilers, so I don't know what might happen in Season 5. Damn, the way things are now, I think I might actually break down enough to find out who's in the cast next year... Actually, make that a definite "yes" to casting spoilers ;)

I love Wes, I really do. Oh God, how much did I want to hug Wes and Lilah when they were in the Records Room? They really did love each other after all. I wonder if Lilah's contract allows her to have a social life outside the office? Cuz honestly? She and Wes deserve some kind of happily ever after. Or, y'know, as much happiness as you can have between a rogue demon hunter and his undead lawyer paramour.

I want to know what that panther was in the White Room. And why did it want Gunn? Cuz honestly, I'm kinda with Gunn when he says he doesn't know what's so special about him. Rather, I think he's special, a great guy and a key player in Angel Investigations, but in the Everyman kind of way. What would a Great Power want with him? Was that cat an evil cat or a good cat? Granted, it was in the White Room, home of the former evil little red girl. And maybe I'm dragging "The Sentinel" mythology into the Buffyverse when I shouldn't be, but the black cat could've been a Good Guy. Maybe. Probably not.

Fred and that scientist guy. So cute! Hey, it's Holden Webster's not-vampiric twin! Maybe they're related somehow. That would be really cool. Lorne was cute too, getting excited over all the celebrities he got to meet. I really hope S5 will give him a little more development. I mean, I love him as he is, and I do worry that any development will take away that element of fun he always brings to the group, but honestly! Andy's in the credits. Let him strut his stuff!

Cordy. Well, I guess she may or may not come out of her coma. Sadly, I don't really care anymore. I mean, it would be nice if she did and her story could be resolved. But if Lilah can be on the show as a regular and, y'know, not be dead? Or rather, be dead but still be a regular. Then I'm all for Stephanie over CC.

Connor, Angel -- those poor, poor boys. Connor may have his happy family now, and I'm glad he's having some happiness, but Joss isn't big on easy endings. The amnesia thing is just too easy a solution. I'm thinking the brainwash won't stick.

I am so excited for Season 5. God! Do we really have to wait four whole months? This is cruel and unusual punishment! Argh!!

Heh. Okay, I'm calm now. And I'll stop it with the exclamation points. I'm going to rewatch "Home" a few more times, then try to post a more indepth review. I don't want you guys thinking that all I can say about this incredible season (best Buffyverse season save, maybe, BtVS S3, IMHO) is a few giddy squeals and some incoherent questions.

Scroll, who can't believe she lasted the season without being spoiled!

[> Re: -- aliera, 20:44:11 05/13/03 Tue

The giddy is nice too Scroll!

[> [> Heh. Well, I do try... -- Scroll, 22:03:28 05/13/03 Tue

Buffy 7.21 (spoilers and/or speculations) -- David Frisby, 20:37:34 05/13/03 Tue

Which will fullfill Shashu prophecy? Angel or Spike? Will Willow's final and biggest magic spell bring an end to all magic (as described in Fray)? Dawn remains the wild card -- will she return to save the day or mess things up? Surely Surely Surely for the final episode we'll see a little of the old Giles????? (my original hero)

The plot would have been better if Angel and Buffy together would have stopped Caleb. At this point we're almost into comic book style though -- perhaps necessarily.

Buffy and Spike -- will Joss break my heart?

I always thought we'd see the uberslayer again -- looks like a one time thing though.

Prediction: Anya will die but Andrew will live to finish his documentary on the slayer.

Oh well, as David Lavery said on NPR today (I think), only after that last episode can any serious study of the entire text begin -- I predict at least ten more academic studies before 2004 is over.

At least the show "is" dying at the right time!

[> One Further Speculation (Possible Spoiler) for 7.22 -- frisby, 07:14:26 05/14/03 Wed

I speculate that Willow will become the new Guardian, replacing the one Cabeb killed, but only after her greatest spell ever.

[> Re: Buffy 7.21 (spoilers and/or speculations) -- Wizard, 13:54:30 05/14/03 Wed

I have an inkling of what's to come. I won't say anything, because I don't want to ruin it for anyone else, but I will say this: if next week plays as well as it reads, we are in for one hell of a finale!

Buffy, Indiana Jones, and the Fisher King .....spoilers for End of Days -- Rufus, 20:46:48 05/13/03 Tue

One movie that the current storyline of Buffy reminds me of is "Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade," specially some of the end parts of the movie....from the script of Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade..which is a modern day Grail story.

Indiana Jones script

INDY (realizing) It's... a leap of faith. Oh, God.

HENRY calls to his son.

HENRY You must believe, boy. you must... believe.

We see him do it. We see him leap into space. We see that he is in midair. We see that he is not going to make it. His hands claw for the opposite wall but he is going to fall 100 feet to his death. And then-he doesn't! He appears to be held up by thin air as he lands on his hands and knees. INDY looks around and down and now he figures it out. Ingeniously, the First Crusaders have painted a pathway to align with the rocks 100 feet below. It is a perfect forced perspective image of the rocks below with lines from a hundred feet continuing six feet below his sight line where his feet are stepping. It's painted to blend in with the rocks below. Highly evolved camouflage... in perfect alignment with everything we see below. When INDY leans out to the left or right... that's when he sees the perfect alignment shift that betrays the trick. Indy throws some dirt on the bridge and he crosses it like the first Crusader from the painting over Henry's desk. Indy crawls through a small opening in the side of the cliff and enters a Temple. A vast array of chalices is displayed on the altar of this small Temple. Perhaps a hundred or more. Many sizes, many shapes, some gold, some silver, but they all glitter and shine. INDY is mesmerized by their number and their beauty. And then he realizes that a man is praying at the altarl He has his back turned to INDY... but he is dressed as what he is! A GRAIL KNIGHT. CLOSE ON THE GRAIL KNIGHT But we can't see the Grail Knight's face. The visor of his helmet is down. Perhaps we see his eyes.

CONTINUED: When the GRAIL KNIGHT sees INDY he gets wearily to his feet and, surprisingly, prepares to give combat...taking up his two-handed broadsword...he comes at Indy, attempting to swing the huge, heavy sword but finding the effort almost too much. Indy dodges two or three clumsy swings of the sword, making no attempt to fight back...until the Knight, exhausted, drops the sword and collapses. Indy approaches him and raises the visor and we see that the Knight is a very ancient man. (In Buffy I feel the Guardian fulfills the role of the Grail Knight)

KNIGHT I knew you'd come, but my strength has left me.

INDY Who are you?

KNIGHT The last of three brothers who swore an oath to find the Grail and to guard it.

INDY That was seven hundred years ago.

KNIGHT A long time to wait.

The GRAIL KNIGHT reaches forward and fingers Indy's clothing.

KNIGHT You're strangely dressed...for a knight.

INDY I'm not exactly...a knight. What do you mean?

KNIGHT I was chosen because I was the bravest and the most worthy. The honor was mine until another came to challenge me to single combat. I pass it to you who vanquished me. The GRAIL KNIGHT holds his sword out to INDY.

INDY (gulp) Listen, I don't have time to explain, but- At that moment DONOVAN and ELSA appear. Donovan turns to face the display of cups.

DONOVAN Which one is it?

CONTINUED: (2)

KNIGHT You must choose. (beat) But choose wisely. For as the True Grail will bring you life- the False Grail will take it from you.

DONOVAN I'm not a historian. I have no idea what it looks like. Which one is it?

ELSA Let me choose.

DONOVAN Thank you, Doctor.

ELSA and INDY exchange looks. He thinks he is seeing her in her true colors.

ELSA chooses a cup-a solid gold, emerald encrusted goblet. DONOVAN instantly takes it from her.

DONOVAN Oh, yes. It's more beautiful than I'd ever imagined. This certainly is the cup of the King of Kings.

DONOVAN rushes to the well and fills the goblet with water.

DONOVAN Eternal life!

DONOVAN drinks from the goblet. Then, DONOVAN'S entire body starts to convulse. His face contorts in agony. He grabs his stomach and turns toward ELSA.

DONOVAN What . . . is . . . happening. . . to . . . me. . .? He starts to age-fast! His hair grows long and gray and brittle. His face sinks. Fingernails curl back on themselves. Milky cataracts coat his eyes. ELSA gasps and screams.

DONOVAN What. . . is . . . happening. . . ? His skin turns brown and leathery and stretches across his bones until it splits. His skeletal hands reach for ELSA's throat, choking her.

CONTINUED: (3) INDY rushes forward and pushes DONOVAN away. As he falls he BODY BREAKS INTO FLAMES, then SHATTERS AGAINST THE WALL.

KNIGHT He chose...poorly. INDY studies the array of chalices.

ELSA It would not be made out of gold.

INDY picks up another cup, a simple earthenware jug.

INDY That's the cup of a carpenter.

He and ELSA exchange a look.

INDY There's only one way to find out. INDY goes to the well and fills the earthenware jug with water, then pauses.

INDY brings the jug to his lips and takes several large swallows. A strange sensation overcomes him, a feeling of peace and contentment...and we see his wounds begin to heal.

KNIGHT You have chosen wisely. But the Grail cannot pass beyond the Great Seal. That is the boundary and the price of immortality.

CUT TO BRODY AND SALLAH who attend to Henry awaiting Indy's return. INDY and ELSA come forward with the Grail. The TWO NAZI SOLDIERS are over-awed by the possessors of the Grail. They put down their guns and kneel. INDY kneels by HENRY's side and tilts his head forward and holds the Grail to his lips. HENRY is too weak to even open his eyes. HENRY swallows some of the water. Much of it runs down the corners of his mouth. Finally INDY pours the water over the wound and everyone watches in astonishment as the wound and the blood stain disappear before their eyes. The color returns to Henry's face. HENRY's eyes open. The first thing he sees is the Grail and they light up. Then they shift to INDY's face-and they light up even more... NAZI SOLDIERS run forward. SALLAH points a rifle at them. SALLAH Drop your guns. Please. The NAZI SOLDIERS drop their weapons at their feet and raise their arms in surrender.

INDY (to HENRY) Dad, come on. Get to your feet.

ELSA steps forward and picks up the Grail. She turns to INDY, her face alight with possession of the Grail.

ELSA We have got it. Come on.

ELSA steps onto the edge of the Great Seal.

INDY Elsa! Elsa, don't movel

ELSA It's ours, Indy. Yours and mine.

INDY Elsa, don't cross the Seal. The Knight warned us not to take the Grail from here.

A RUMBLING SOUND IS HEARD and the ground roars and shifts. Dirt falls from the ceiling of the cavern. ELSA falls on the Great Seal. The Grail bounces away from her grasp. She reaches for it and the ground beneath her begins to SPLIT OPEN. ELSA slips into the crevasse. She screams. ELSA is hanging perilously in the abyss, with the Grail almost within her reach. As her hands lose their grip, INDY just manages to one of them, he himself sliding forward across the slanted floor.

HENRY Junior!Junior!

With her free hand, ELSA is trying to get the Grail. INDY can't save her unless she gives him her free hand. She has to choose.

INDY Elsa. Elsa don't. Elsa. Elsa. Give me your other hand, honey. I can't hold you.

CONTINUED:

ELSA I can reach it. I can reach it... Her hand begins to slip from Indy's grasp.

INDY Elsa! Give me your hand. Give me your other hand!

ELSA just manages to touch the Grail. In doing so, she has tipped the balance too far-INDY slides down another yard, Elsa loses her grip and falls screaming to her death.

INDY (horrified) Elsa!!

Now the ledge INDY lies upon begins to break apart. HENRY grabs one of his hands as Indy struggles to reach the Grail with the other.

HENRY Junior, give me your other hand! I can't hold on!!

INDY I can get it-I can almost reach it, Dad. INDY looks down into the black bottomless pit beneath him from which nothing can ever be retrieved.

HENRY Indiana. Indiana!!

INDY snaps his look up to his father. His father has never called him this before.

HENRY (very calmly) ... let it go...

INDY abandons the Grail and grabs onto HENRY with both hands.

HENRY pulls him up to safety.

THE GRAIL KNIGHT looks through the falling debris to INDY and HENRY. SALLAH and BRODY rush from the crumbling Temple.

INDY Dad. . .

The GRAIL KNIGHT raises his arm to HENRY.

CONTINUED: INDY Please, Dad...

INDY and HENRY down the passageway just as a huge stone column tumbles down upon the spot where they stood. The GRAIL KNIGHT lowers his arm as he watches them leave. EXT.

ENTRANCE TO MOUNTAIN TEMPLE - AFTERNOON INDY, HENRY, SALLAH and BRODY emerge from the Mountain Temple through the Grecian Facade. From within the Mountain Temple, the ROAR OF WALLS CAVING IN IS HEARD. A cloud of dust and smoke billows out from the entrance. HENRY turns to INDY.

HENRY Elsa never really believed in the Grail. She thought she'd found a prize.

INDY What did vou find, Dad?

HENRY Me?... Illumination.

In Episode 21 of Buffy (according to spoiler summaries) Buffy meets someone who calls herself the Guardian. From what is said the Guardian (who reminds me of the Grail Knight from Indiana Jones) is something to do with the women who made the scythe, a seperate power from the Shamans that created the Slayer. Interesting that the Slayer is created by men but a feminine power steps in and creates something for the Slayer to use that even the Watchers of today know nothing of. The Scythe seems to give both Slayers a feeling they haven't felt before....one that makes them feel that this scythe is theirs. But if you look at the Scythe as the Grail in Indiana Jones...the scythe/grail is not a just a weapon or thing, it is a source of illumination. Who is worthy to wield the scythe...Faith, Buffy.....or someone else?

I also have to post the story of the Fisher King because it makes me think of the characters in Buffy and Angel.....

The Legend of the Fisher King

The legend of the Fisher King

Once upon a time, there was a child who had to spend the night in the forest to show his value and become King. And while he's spending the night alone, he is visited by a Holt Vision: in the fire of the bivouac the Holy Grail appears him, symbol of Divine Grace. And a voice tells the child: "You'll be Grail's Guardian: It will heal men's hearts." But the child, blinded by a vision of a life full of power, glory and beauty, in a state of complete amazement, felt himself omnipotent... like God. He touched the Grail, and It disappeared, leaving his hand wounded by fire. The child grew up, becoming a man, and the wound grew with hime. His life had no reason... He had faith in noone, nor in himself. He couldn't love... nor be loved. He started to die.

A day, a jester arrived at the castle and found the king alone. Beaing a simple soul, he didn't notice the king: he only saw a suffering man... all alone. He asked the king "Why are you so sad?" And the king answered: "I'm thirsty, and I'd like some water". So the jester took a cup near the bed, he filled it with water and gave it to the King. And the King, starting to drink, understood that his wound was healed. He looked at his hands, and saw that the cupe was the Holy Grail, the object he always looked for. He asked the jester: "How could you find what my knights have never found?" The jester answered: "I don't know. I only knew that you were thirsty."

I guess you are wondering why Rufus is dribbling on about Indiana Jones and the Fisher King? Why does is matter to Buffy? I don't say that these references tell us what will happen on Buffy but it does speak to a state of mind that has been going on in Buffy for a long time.

Buffy has always been afraid to love, afraid to let herself go and allow herself to love. This has happened because real life situations have caused her to feel anger, fear, and despair. Buffy has died, she has lost someone she feels is the one she loved more than anything, and most of all her mother has died leaving Buffy alone to navigate through life. Everyone knows how that feels, real life tending to suck way more than any storyline in a fictional show, but this is where BTVS is best at dealing with the suckage of life in a way where as well as tragedy we do get glimpses of hope.

Ships. People focus on the romantic ship, who is going out with whom, who we would like to see Buffy or another character with. In some ways this is one of the things that has caused Buffy to freeze in fear....this search for love that will make all things better. This is where the Grail legend and the Fisher King come in. In the search for happiness like it is a prize, some of the characters have become lost, lost in their fears and longing. They want happiness like it is a golden prize, like it's something that can be purchased by good deeds....in a way they have become blind to what is in the here and now....right in front of them. Like the Fisher King we all can get caught up in the idea of perfection, power, and gain in a way that causes us to stagnate as human beings. The Grail isn't a thing as much as it is the achievment of wholeness. In misunderstanding the message the Grail attempts to send, we all can cease to live our lives in hopes that the prize will be awarded to us. Buffy is no different. She has come so far in seven years, but she still has a few things to learn. The Guardian is the representative of the power who made the scythe, the one who exists along with it and now it appears the Guardian is gone. The Guardian also said that Buffy had other weapons/power besides the Scythe.

I feel that the fixation on ships has blinded not only the characters in Buffy but us as well. In the concentration on one or two characters we have only seen what we want in relation to our favorite ship, rejecting anything that isn't the character we have a personal preference for. "Ships" aren't the focus this year, they may mean something to the ongoing storyline but they aren't the focus of the final destination for anyone. Buffy was admitted to another time/dimension and offered more power, and she wanted knowledge, I feel that the only thing the Shamens had to give her was power, but power comes in so many forms, the Shamens limited to the physical. Buffy is like the King with the wound....someone who is burdened with power/pain and isolated because of it. The Guardian hinted at another power...Buffy only has to see through to the "Grail" that has always been there in front of her. It's all about power...;)

[> CutPrint..Thanks so much for this!! A question...then more later -- s'kat, 22:56:24 05/13/03 Tue

I want to read it in more depth before I comment at length. I only had time to scan.

Thanks for this Rufus, you are rapidly becoming one of my favorite posters on S7.

This post made me feel much better about a few things that have been worrying me about where it's all headed. Also cleared up the Scythe.

Two questions: Would Willow be the one to weild it? I think so because I think Willow may be the inheritor of the Guardians. Not a watcher but a Guardian. Giles tries to get her to access her magics to see how it works, but she begs off, afraid.

Also, in Fray it is said to be scepter. Scepter's disrupt and channel mystical energies. Unlike the grail which contains them. So I'm wondering would this scepter possibly act like the grail or a reverse Judge - burning out the demon and preserving the human -acting like a channeler of pure love that burns out all but what's true in us all?

Now the three quotes that reassurred me and made me realize I need to trust the writers:

Ships. People focus on the romantic ship, who is going out with whom, who we would like to see Buffy or another character with. In some ways this is one of the things that has caused Buffy to freeze in fear....this search for love that will make all things better. This is where the Grail legend and the Fisher King come in. In the search for happiness like it is a prize, some of the characters have become lost, lost in their fears and longing. They want happiness like it is a golden prize, like it's something that can be purchased by good deeds....in a way they have become blind to what is in the here and now....right in front of them.

Yes even the actress who plays Buffy focuses on nothing but the ship. (If we wasted time tonight watching SMG's interview on UPN you know whereof I speak and no don't ask me to repeat it, trying to purge my brain.) But SMG is not Buffy, she is an actress who plays her. Buffy is in Whedon's head and conveyed through his words and direction and SMG's performance. As James Marsters said recently, wise words for actors which remind me of something Laurence Olivier told William Goldman during filming of Marathon Man, the actor is merely a servant - they play the lines, but they are a but a small part of the whole. The actors have 0 say in what we see on screen only in how it is performed.

The whole isn't ships. The story was never about the ships.
Or who we end up with at the end. There's romantic love, sure, but love can be more than that. Much more. Buffy keeps saying how she's alone, cut off. Yet in this episode I keep noticing some interesting things: 1. the FE instructs Caleb to let Buffy go, knowing she cares more about her friends who she goes to save. 2. Buffy and Faith's chat - where Buffy reassures Faith and shares the Scythe with Faith - stating in a sense it's both of theirs.
Buffy telling Xander how important he is to her and asking him to take Dawn away and be safe since she can't bear to lose them, that Xander has been her touchstone through it all. 3. Buffy telling Spike how much that night meant to her, getting him to admit his feelings for her. Letting him know it wasn't just him. She can't tell him what those feelings are - but she does stop him at the door to let him know he means something to her and he helped her.

So for someone who feels cut off and alone, she seems anything but. But Buffy needs to see that. I think she also has to see past the "fairy tale romantic love " we all dream of and get weepy eyed over and "memory of that perfect love" she lost - both of which Angel represents, to realize that love can be a broader greater thing. Sure that made no sense. Can't find the words to express this well.

Buffy has always been afraid to love, afraid to let herself go and allow herself to love. This has happened because real life situations have caused her to feel anger, fear, and despair. Buffy has died, she has lost someone she feels is the one she loved more than anything, and most of all her mother has died leaving Buffy alone to navigate through life. Everyone knows how that feels, real life tending to suck way more than any storyline in a fictional show, but this is where BTVS is best at dealing with the suckage of life in a way where as well as tragedy we do get glimpses of hope.

Perhaps you said it better above and here:

I feel that the fixation on ships has blinded not only the characters in Buffy but us as well. In the concentration on one or two characters we have only seen what we want in relation to our favorite ship, rejecting anything that isn't the character we have a personal preference for. "Ships" aren't the focus this year, they may mean something to the ongoing storyline but they aren't the focus of the final destination for anyone. Buffy was admitted to another time/dimension and offered more power, and she wanted knowledge, I feel that the only thing the Shamens had to give her was power, but power comes in so many forms, the Shamens limited to the physical. Buffy is like the King with the wound....someone who is burdened with power/pain and isolated because of it. The Guardian hinted at another power...Buffy only has to see through to the "Grail" that has always been there in front of her. It's all about power...;)

Yes. And what does the Grail represent? Christ's love for his followers - within it he shared his power with them.
Remember what Buffy says to Willow in STSP? I have so much strength? I'm giving it away...sharing it.

Thanks again. Hopefully, I'll have more to say after I've read the Fisher King quotes. One of my all time favorite flims by the way, half tempted to re-rent it.

Great post.

SK

[> [> An answer of a sort.....quotes and spoilers from Buffy 7.21 "End of Days" -- Rufus, 00:49:01 05/14/03 Wed

A couple of conversations should have people talking....a lot.

Buffy: WE'VE STILL GOT WORK TO DO. I THINK IT'S MAYBE SOME KIND OF SCYTHE. THE ONLY THING I KNOW FOR SURE IS IT MADE CALEB BACK OFF IN A HURRY.

Willow: SO IT'S TRUE. SCYTHE MATTERS.

Giles: AND, IGNORING THAT, I'D JUST LIKE TO POINT OUT THIS IS REALLY QUITE INGENIOUS.

Buffy: KILLS STRONG BODIES 3 WAYS.

Willow: AND YOU SAY YOU SENSE SOMETHING WHEN YOU HOLD IT?

Buffy: NOT MUCH, BUT IT'S STRONG. AND I KNEW IT BELONGED TO ME.

Giles: I JUST KNEW IT. IN ADDITION TO BEING ANCIENT, IT'S CLEARLY MYSTICAL.

Buffy: YEAH, I FIGURED THAT ONE OUT WHEN I KING ARTHURED IT OUT OF THE STONE.

Willow: SO MAYBE IT'S LIKE SOME KIND OF TRADITIONAL SLAYER WEAPON.

Giles: I CAN'T IMAGINE HOW SOMETHING LIKE THIS COULD EXIST WITHOUT MY HAVING HEARD OF IT.

Buffy: WELL, THE GOOD GUYS ARE NOT TRADITIONALLY KNOWN FOR THEIR COMMUNICATION SKILLS.

Giles: RIGHT. UM...ANY CHANCE THAT IT MIGHT BE SOMETHING OTHER THAN A TOOL FOR KILLING THINGS?

Scythe matters....but just how does it matter other than being a nifty weapon.....stakes, slices....a symbol of death....but what else is the scythe a symbol for?

"it should be observed that the thirteenth major arcanum of the Tarot, Death, depicts a scythe which cuts down not life but worldly illusions. This agrees perfectly with the symbolic meaning of the number Thirteen - the beginning, not the end of a cycle - and gives
the implement positive properties showing it, in this context, to be the instrument which opens the door to the realm of true and invisible reality.."
Penguin Dictionary of Symbols

The crescent blade of the scythe is also the crescent of the moon, given to Cronos by his mother Gaea, and symbolizing the eternal fluctuations and cycles of time. The Mythic Tarot by Juliet Sharman-Burke & Liz Green

Remember we started this season talking about Yeats and his gyre (cyclic) theory of history, I also included something about how the past moves in a spiral, sometimes out of control, and sometimes not....

in his poems of the 1920's and 1930's, winding stairs, spinning tops, "gyres," spirals of all kinds are important symbols; not only are they connected with Yeat's philosophy of history and of personality, but they also serve as a means of resolving some of those contraries that had arrested him from the beginning. Life is a journey up a spiral staircase; as we grow older we cover the ground we have covered before, only higher up; as we look down the winding stair below us we measure our progress by the number of places where we no longer are. The journey is both repetitious and progressive; we go both round and upward. Through symbolic images of this kind Yeat's explores the paradoxes of time and change, of growth and identity, of love and age, of life and art, of madness and wisdom.

Norton Anthology of Literature vol.2.. M.H. Abrams General Editor

Watching the gang this year we have been seeing the consequences of them being just that bit further up that spiral staircase of life. What they have learned or not learned shows.

Giles: WELL, I HAVE REFERENCE TO THE SWORD OF MOSKVA, THE, UH...REAPER OF THE TIGRIS--HOW ARE WE SUPPOSED TO NARROW THIS DOWN? THE ILLUSTRATIONS ARE NEVER CLEAR ENOUGH. OH, DAMN...WE'RE RUNNING OUT OF TIME. WE REALLY HAVEN'T GOT ANYTHING USEFUL. DO YOU SENSE ANY OF THE POWER THAT BUFFY SPOKE ABOUT?

Willow: GOTTA SAY NO. MUST BE A SLAYER THING.

Giles: TAPPING INTO MAGICKS MIGHT HELP WITH THAT.

Willow: MAYBE. BUT, I MEAN, IF CALEB IS SCARED OF THIS THING, IT MUST BE PRETTY DANGEROUS. AND TAPPING INTO THAT...

Giles: WILLOW, YOU COULD DO IT WITHOUT ENDANGERING YOURSELF.

Willow: IF I TRIED SOMETHING BIG, I'D CHANGE. AND THEN IT'S
ALL BLACK HAIR AND VEINS AND LIGHTNING BOLTS. I CAN HARDLY DO A LOCATOR SPELL WITHOUT GETTING DARK ROOTS.

Giles: AND IF IT WAS NECESSARY?

Willow: HONESTLY? I DON'T KNOW.

Giles: [SIGHS] ALL RIGHT. DO WHAT YOU CAN. THAT'S ALL ANY OF US CAN DO.

Willow: I GUESS SO. UGH. MAN, NONE OF THESE SOUND RIGHT. I MEAN, LOOK. HERE'S ONE THAT'S JUST "M" QUESTION MARK. WHAT THE HECK IS THAT?

Giles: LET ME SEE. IT'S NOT A QUESTION MARK. IT'S THE INTERNATIONAL PHONETICS ALPHABET SYMBOL FOR GLOTTAL STOP.

Willow: A WHOEY?

Giles: IT'S SORT OF A GULPING NOISE. I'M...REMEMBERING SOMETHING HERE. UM...AH. HIEROGLYPHS. HIEROGLYPHS STAND FOR SETS OF CONSONANTS, AS YOU KNOW.

Willow: YES, ABSOLUTELY.

Giles: "M" PLUS GLOTTAL STOP IS REPRESENTED BY A PICTURE THAT'S COMMONLY THOUGHT TO SYMBOLIZE A SICKLE OR A SCYTHE. IT'S IN THOUSANDS OF CARVINGS. IN EGYPT, THROUGHOUT THE ANCIENT WORLD.

Willow: CARVINGS LIKE YOU'D HAVE ON A PAGAN TEMPLE?

Giles: GO BACK. SEE WHAT ELSE WE CAN FIND OUT ABOUT THIS TEMPLE. THE SCYTHE IS A SYMBOL OF DEATH. LET'S SEE WHERE THESE PAGANS BURIED THEIR DEAD.

Willow is afraid of going all dark and veiny.....what could she learn from looking back as what she did...a hint could be what happens with Caleb merging with the first/Buffy...

Buffy/First: AND FOR ME AS WELL. LOOK, WHEN THIS IS ALL OVER, AND OUR ARMIES SPRING FORTH, AND OUR WILL SWEEPS THE WORLD, I WILL BE ABLE TO ENTER EVERY MAN, WOMAN, AND CHILD ON THIS EARTH, JUST AS I ENTER YOU.

Caleb: ARE YOU TRYING TO MAKE ME JEALOUS?

Buffy/First: I'M TRYING TO MAKE YOU A GOD.

Caleb: I AM THY HUMBLE SERVANT. AND I AM READY TO SERVE THEE.

Caleb goes all dark in the eyes just like Willow did....so, how does Willow not do that? Giles did hint that there was a way. Let's just say that intent goes a long way.

Now for an indication of how far everyone has come, Faith and Buffy are able to relate to each other without most of the emotional baggage, and they do talk about their situation as slayers.

Faith: AND IT FEELS LIKE...LIKE IT'S MINE. I GUESS THAT MEANS IT'S YOURS.

Buffy: IT BELONGS TO THE SLAYER.

Faith: SLAYER IN CHARGE, WHICH, I'M GUESSING, IS YOU.

Buffy: I HONESTLY DON'T KNOW. DOES IT MATTER?

Faith: IT NEVER MATTERED TO ME. SOMEBODY HAS TO LEAD.
LET'S VOTE FOR CHAO-AHN. IT'S HARDER TO LEAD PEOPLE
INTO A DEATHTRAP IF YOU DON'T SPEAK ENGLISH.

Buffy: IT WASN'T YOUR FAULT. I'M REALLY NOT LOOKING FOR FORGIVENESS.

Buffy: YOU'RE NOT?

Faith: WHAT DO YOU WANT ME TO SAY? I BLEW IT.

Buffy: YOU DIDN'T BLOW IT.

Faith: TELL THAT TO--

Buffy: PEOPLE DIE. YOU LEAD THEM INTO BATTLE, THEY'RE GONNA DIE. IT DOESN'T MATTER HOW READY YOU ARE OR HOW SMART YOU ARE. WAR IS ABOUT DEATH. NEEDLESS, STUPID DEATH.

Faith: SO, HERE'S THE LAUGH RIOT. MY WHOLE LIFE I'VE BEEN A LONER.

Buffy: THAT'S THE FUNNY PART? DID I MISS SOMETHING?

Faith: I'M TRYING TO--

Buffy: SORRY. SORRY. GO.

Faith: NO TIES, NO BUDDIES, NO RELATIONSHIPS THAT LASTED LONGER THAN...WELL, ROBIN LASTED PRETTY LONG. BOY'S GOT STAMINA.

Buffy: PRINCIPAL WOOD? AND YOU? AND IN MY--

Faith: DON'T TELL ME YOU TWO GOT WRIGGLY.

Buffy: NO. NO. NO, NO. WE'RE JUST GOOD FRIENDS. OR MORTAL ENEMIES, DEPENDING ON WHICH DAY OF THE-- WAS THAT THE FUNNY PART?

Faith: OK. THE POINT. ME, BY MYSELF ALL THE TIME. I'M LOOKING AT YOU, EVERYTHING YOU HAVE, AND, I DON'T KNOW, JEALOUS. THEN THERE I AM. EVERYBODY'S LOOKING TO ME, TRUSTING ME TO LEAD THEM, AND I'VE NEVER FELT SO ALONE IN MY ENTIRE LIFE.

Buffy: YEAH.

Faith: AND THAT'S YOU EVERY DAY, ISN'T IT?

Buffy: I LOVE MY FRIENDS. I'M VERY GRATEFUL FOR THEM. BUT THAT'S THE PRICE. BEING A SLAYER.

Faith: THERE'S ONLY SUPPOSED TO BE ONE. MAYBE THAT'S WHY YOU AND I CAN NEVER GET ALONG. WE'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO EXIST TOGETHER.

Buffy: ALSO, YOU WENT EVIL AND WERE KILLING PEOPLE.

Faith: GOOD POINT. ALSO A FACTOR.

Buffy: BUT YOU'RE RIGHT. I MEAN, I... I GUESS EVERYONE'S ALONE. BUT BEING A SLAYER? THERE'S A BURDEN WE CAN'T SHARE.

I have to disagree with Faith, much of her problems with Buffy and vice versa have more to do with petty mortal, very human emotional shit. End of Days gives us a Faith and Buffy who are getting past the worst of their problems, and perhaps they may be able to work together.

It is the Guardian that tells Buffy the most....

Woman: I'D FORGOTTEN. I'D FORGOTTEN HOW YOUNG YOU WOULD BE. COMES FROM THE WAITING. MIND PLAYS TRICKS. I SEE YOU'VE FOUND OUR WEAPON.

Buffy: WHO ARE YOU?

Guardian: ONE OF MANY. WELL...TIME WAS. NOW I'M ALONE IN THE WORLD.

Buffy: SO WHAT ARE YOU? SOME KIND OF GHOST?

Guardian: [CHUCKLES SOFTLY] NOPE. I'M AS REAL AS YOU ARE. JUST...WELL...LET ME PUT IT THIS WAY--I LOOK GOOD FOR MY AGE. I'VE BEEN WAITING. YOU PULLED IT OUT OF THE ROCK. I WAS ONE OF THOSE WHO PUT IT IN THERE.

Buffy: WHAT IS IT?

Guardian: A WEAPON. A SCYTHE. FORGED IN SECRECY FOR ONE LIKE YOU WHO-- I'M SORRY. WHAT'S YOUR NAME?

Buffy: BUFFY.

Guardian: NO, REALLY. WE FORGED IT IN SECRECY AND KEPT IT HIDDEN FROM THE SHADOW MEN, WHO--

Buffy: YEAH. MET THOSE GUYS. DIDN'T REALLY CARE TOO MUCH FOR 'EM.

Guardian: AHH, YES. THEN YOU KNOW. AND THEY BECAME THE WATCHERS. AND THE WATCHERS WATCHED THE SLAYERS. BUT WE WERE WATCHING THEM. [in Fray they've become suicidal lunatics]

Buffy: OH! SO YOU'RE LIKE...WHAT ARE YOU?

Guardian: GUARDIANS. WOMEN WHO WANT TO HELP AND PROTECT YOU. WE FORGED THIS CENTURIES AGO, HALFWAY AROUND THE WORLD.

Buffy: HENCE, THE LUXOR CASINO THEME.

Guardian: FORGED THERE, IT WAS PUT TO USE RIGHT HERE...TO KILL THE LAST PURE DEMON THAT WALKED UPON THE EARTH. THE REST WERE ALREADY DRIVEN UNDER. [from beneath you it devours, perhaps?] AND THEN THERE WERE MEN HERE, AND THEN THERE WERE MONKS. AND THEN THERE WAS A TOWN, AND NOW THERE WAS YOU. AND THE SCYTHE REMAINED HIDDEN.

Buffy: I DON'T UNDERSTAND. HOW IS IT POSSIBLE THAT WE DIDN'T KNOW ANY OF THIS?

Guardian: WE HID, TOO. WE HAD TO UNTIL NOW. WE'RE THE LAST SURPRISE.

Buffy: DOES THIS MEAN I CAN WIN?

Guardian: THAT IS REALLY UP TO YOU. THIS IS A POWERFUL WEAPON.

Buffy: YEAH.

Guardian: BUT YOU ALREADY HAVE WEAPONS.

Buffy has said that Xander is her strength, and Spike also is her strength....now, that could be considered a repetitious pick-up line, but I see it as a truth that we see every year...the people around Buffy are as important as the powerful weapon she now carries. Everyone has had good and bad times. Willow has recently had the worst. It's the love these people have for each other (not just talking romantic love here) that keeps them together, and keeps them fighting for a place in this world. By looking back at the past from their position higher up that staircase of life, they all can either choose to become more than they were or garner confidence from all their combined posative and negative experiences.

[> [> [> Thanks for all this. Makes me feel less upset about the nearing "end" somehow. Plus, brilliance. -- yez, 07:40:24 05/14/03 Wed

[> [> [> [> Thank you...... -- Rufus, 08:34:07 05/14/03 Wed

Now you all know what I do in the wee hours...I'm looking in symbols dictionaries (I have about 6), crusty old Lit books, stuff on the net about comics, and my own stash of Fray and Tales of the Slayer comics. I also rewatched Indiana Jones, and have seen The Manchurian Candidate. Oh and gone through books like The Osiris Complex to figure Angel/Angelus, Spike/and William. God I even bought a Buffy novel cause people were bitching about the author.

[> [> [> [> [> Nice to meet you, Mr. Giles. ;) -- yez, 10:36:52 05/14/03 Wed

[> [> [> Another excellent post: who are her weapons -- s'kat, 09:48:42 05/14/03 Wed

Buffy has said that Xander is her strength, and Spike also is her strength....now, that could be considered a repetitious pick-up line, but I see it as a truth that we see every year...the people around Buffy are as important as the powerful weapon she now carries. Everyone has had good and bad times. Willow has recently had the worst. It's the love these people have for each other (not just talking romantic love here) that keeps them together, and keeps them fighting for a place in this world. By looking back at the past from their position higher up that staircase of life, they all can either choose to become more than they were or garner confidence from all their combined posative and negative experiences.

The Guardian says: But you already have weapons.

Buffy doesn't see them.

There's Xander - the one eyed man - who has helped her figure things out on numerous occassions. Xander who saved Giles in Becoming and Buffy in Prophecy Girl. Xander who came up with the idea to join in Primeval. Xander who figured out that a rocket launcher would kill the Judge.
Xander who took in Spike and united with him to break the girls of the jacket spell in HIM and figured out that Spike had a trigger in Never Leave Me.

There's Dawn - who can now translate Summerian and turkish. Who gave the power over to Amanada in Potential and helped save Amanda's life. Who figured out that it was a gnarl demon not Willow in STSP. Who helped Cassie in Help. And who told Buffy she needed to leave for a while in Empty Places. Dawn who holds within her the energy to open dimensions.

Willow: Who can create barrier shields. Who brought Buffy back. Who feels the connection of the earth. Willow who in the past cursed Angelus with a soul. Figured out the Books of Ascension. And was buffy's spirit in Primeval.

Giles: Who came back in Two to Go and gave Willow her connection to Humanity again. Who supported Buffy when Angel turned into Angelus. Who helped Buffy figure out a way to defeat the Mayor and Adam. And Who took care of Ben.
Giles who at his best is a father, supportive, and the worst a watcher.

Anya - the ex-demon who steals hospital supplies to help the wounded. Who helped them figure out what an Ascension meant. Who helped them defeat Glory. Who provides info on demons.

Faith - the slayer, who shows Buffy what it's like to be truly alone and cut off. Who is striving to do good. Who took the reigns when Buffy needed to sleep. Who helped the AI team save Angel.

Spike - who helped Buffy stop Angelus, who out of love sought a soul (the highest compliment Buffy has ever gotten), who joined with Xander to break the girls out of their spell of the jacket, who protected Dawn, who comforted Buffy when Joyce was ill, and who gave Buffy strength when she was down.

Andrew - who provided the gang with information on the FE and whose tears sealed the seal.

Buffy doesn't see these weapons. But who does she think sent Angel to the Tomb? He didn't figure it out on his own.
Who does she think helped her get the strength to find the weapon or even kept everyone safe while she did?

I keep remembering Restless.

The First Slayer says the slayer is always alone. And they keep handing buffy the card symbolizing the hands.

But Buffy says she's not alone - she has friends and chooses the card with her friends.

Her power, her strength comes from those who love her.

It's telling that when Spike sees the weapon - he calls it the grail. And their scene together in this episode and the one before is reminiscent of the LEgend of The Fisher King.
Handing the cup of human kindness for a swallow.

Buffy and Angel in their respective shows often see love as a prize, a reward, a light at the end of the tunnel. It's not. It's illumination. You don't win love...it's not a game or a destination like the "happy ever after" at the end of the story. It's something you receive and give like the fool gives his king a sip of water because he's thirsty. Its something you share like Buffy shares her strength with Willow in STSP.

You don't win love

[> [> [> [> Great post -- Caroline, 11:14:22 05/14/03 Wed

I think you have a great point. I would refine it a little to suggest that Buffy's main weapon in the fight against the FE, besides herself - will be a masculine figure. With all the male/female couples we've had in End of Days, it only seems right (see my post below).

[> [> Re: A question... -- Just George, 11:51:41 05/14/03 Wed

s'kat: If we wasted time tonight watching SMG's interview on UPN you know whereof I speak and no don't ask me to repeat it, trying to purge my brain.

OK, I'll bite. What interview? :-)

-JG

[> [> [> Ugh. -- s'kat, 12:35:04 05/14/03 Wed

It was on the UPN Nightly News in New York at 10-11pm, aired at 10:30 pm.

She didn't say much. Nothing about the cast, crew, or anyone but herself.

Interviewer: SMG - what do you think would bring Buffy back?

SMG: Oh if they were to do a B/A miniseries - I think there's a lot they could cover on their romance. And I'd love to do guest shots on Angel.

Interviewer: Who does Buffy love?

SMG: Well Angel is her one true love. She'll only ever be in love with him.

Interviewer: How about Spike?

SMG(lengthy pause): She loves Spike, but she's not in love with him.

Read whatever you want into it. All I can say is I'm beginning to feel sorry for FPJ.

I left the interview with a bad tast in my mouth.

SK

[> [> [> [> Re: Ugh. -- dream, 13:21:57 05/14/03 Wed

Well, it clearly said Buffy & Angel 4-eva on her high-school notebook. What do you think 4-eva means anyway?

[> [> [> [> Re: Ugh. -- Just George, 14:27:17 05/14/03 Wed

Thank you very much. I'm sorry if that was painful.

I find the actor's internal conceptions of their characters interesting. I assume that their conceptions inform their performances, no matter what dialogue or direction they are given.

I also find some backstage elements ironic. I have heard rumors that the SMG was closer to the other actors in the first few seasons and less close in the last few. That makes me wonder if this passage from Touched was meta-narration on SMG's backstage relationships. For Slayer read Star or Lead.

BUFFY: I've been thinking a lot.

SPIKE: Okay, first mistake --

BUFFY: And I can't fault them for kicking me out. I've been... I've just cut myself off from them, all of them. 'Cause I knew I was gonna lose some of them, and I didn't want to...

She stands, upset.

BUFFY: You know what? I'm still making excuses. I've always cut myself off, I've always... Being the Slayer made me different, but it's my fault I stayed that way. People try to connect to me but I just... I slip away.

Some people hate the backstage stuff and just want to judge a show by what is on the screen. Fair enough. But, I've always been fascinated by the backstage mechanics and relationships that inform what we see on screen.

For example, I assume that the amount of time Joss spends on Buffy effects the show we see on screen. If last year Fox had picked up Firefly as a mid season replacement or had stayed with Dark Angel and dropped Firefly, then Joss would have had more time to spend on Buffy and Angel. Would the shows have been different? Certainly. Better or worse? Who knows.

BTW, I loved Firefly and will buy the DVDs as soon as they come out. I hope against hope that Joss finds a way to keep telling Firefly stories.

Thanks for the info and for letting me ramble.

-JG

[> [> Re: CutPrint..Thanks so much for this!! A question...then more later -- Arethusa, 12:01:17 05/14/03 Wed

So for someone who feels cut off and alone, she seems anything but. But Buffy needs to see that. I think she also has to see past the "fairy tale romantic love " we all dream of and get weepy eyed over and "memory of that perfect love" she lost - both of which Angel represents, to realize that love can be a broader greater thing. Sure that made no sense. Can't find the words to express this well.

That fits in well with the grail (and Oz) message-it's right there in front of you all the time. She's alone, but she's surrounded by loved ones and friends. She can't have Angel but another man loves her just as much.

Illumination is another word for "seeing."

We keep pursuing happiness like it's the Holy Grail. But happiness is all in the perspective, which keeps shifing on us in BtVS. We can hold out for the perfect love, or we can open up to what we already have. Tara is gone-should Willow wait for something she can never have again, that she kept messing up when she did have it? Or should she give her love to Kennedy? Does Xander sink under the knowledge that he can't help Buffy the way he once did, or does he do what he can without regrets? Do we complain about how everything has changed since the Scoobies were kids, or do we enjoy the adults they have become?

Lots of great posts in this thread.

[> Re: Buffy, Indiana Jones, and the Fisher King .....spoilers for End of Days -- Mystery, 06:08:29 05/14/03 Wed

Ironically, I was reminded of Indiana Jones or Tomb Raider by the temple of the Guardian. :-)

[> Yes! Yes! Yes! and.....grail legends and feminine/masculine archetypes -- Caroline, 11:05:42 05/14/03 Wed

what a fabulous post.

I was thinking about the end of Buffy's journey and the Grail legends really fit in with this. The Grail legends - whether interpreted as spiritual progress, Christian redemption, or as an image of fertility (as they are in pagan traditions) are essentially a search for life's deeper meaning. There's the whole 'asking the right question' thing that our hero searches a lifetime to find so that she can be happy. When young, the hero does not understand the importance of asking the right questions because she has no understanding of life. It is only through struggle and experience that she learns compassion and wisdom/humility. Only then, through compassion for others (which the hero learns from her own difficulties) and the wisdom to understand the purpose of all things that happen (rather than just basking in our good or ill fortune - Bhuddhist might call this 'calm abiding').

This search is actually a very feminine one - it is reclaiming feminine values. What I found terribly interesting in the episode was just how the male/female polarities were contrasted and balanced. We had Guardians/Shadowmen, Watchers/Slayers, FE/Caleb, Buffy/Spike, Caleb/Buffy, Giles/Willow, Andrew/Anya, FE/Spike, Buffy/Xander, Xander/Dawn - a balancing act that has existed from time immemorial. Each of these couples (and other examples) where about the connection and balance of male and female values. They all had some kind of connection to one of the themes of the season - which is that it's all about power. In each coupling, the was either a struggle for power and strength or a supporting of the power and strength of the other. In some cases opposition, in others, conjunction. One half of each couple was tapping into feminine power while the other was either frightened or supportive of it.

For example, Caleb was definitely frightened of the feminine power of the scythe and wanted to prevent Buffy from having it. Giles was trying to get Willow to use magic while willow was frightened of its destructive power. The FE somehow 'merged' with Caleb, giving him greater power ('I'm trying to make you a god'). The Guardians kept an eye on the shadowmen and created a weapon for the slayers the shadowmen created. Spike finally felt the power of his feeling with Buffy and he was terrified. Buffy was re-energized after her time with Spike, she opened up to him emotionally for the first time and she had no fear. Buffy refuses Angel's offer to help with Caleb - this is something that she must do - defeat the external masculine manifestation of her own internal problems. The FE is trying to manipulate Spike's feelings of jealousy about the B/A kiss.

I'm so happy that all those discussions we had in the middle of season 6 about oppositional thinking, balancing polarities etc is really bearing some serious fruit. This episode has gone a long way in solving a lot of my issues with the middle of this season (particularly the lack of story for Anya, Xander, and Willow). And I think my theory even applies to the 'incident' with Miss Kitty Fantastico - cross-bow, female cat, need I say more?

[> [> Dead solid perfect, Caroline. Excellent points on the M/F dynamic in this episode. -- cjl, 11:36:17 05/14/03 Wed

[> [> Oh fantastic post. thank you. -- s'kat, 11:45:42 05/14/03 Wed

You cleared up something that I'd also noticed last night and was bugging me. All the groupings.

Xander and Dawn. Xander chlorforms Dawn right after she mentions the incident with Miss Kitty Fantastico and the cross-bow. Prior to that we have Buffy telling Xander she doesn't want him using a cross-bow or sword. Xander saying how she wounds him. Her coming back with - well you said I'd die. Xander replying - well I'll bring you back - that's what I do. Then later we have Dawn take out Xander with the phaser and turn the car around, so Dawn is in the drivers seat and Xander is unconscious. That scene alone I think supports your statement above.

The Caleb/buffy scene - Caleb takes out the Guardian,
Buffy fights Caleb - he gets the upper hand, Angel takes him out with a punch, but Buffy insists she finish it alone with Angel watching. Caleb and Angel are an interesting comparison don't you think? They both...feel like father figure/romantic figures to me. Caleb with his collar and relationship to FE and Angel who is so much older...don't know probably reaching on that one. Hmmm.

Yes, I think the masculine/feminine pairings are important.
So who will Faith be paired with? Robin Wood? Anyone?

The line Buffy said to Spike about Faith - "I have Faith for that now" - any significance?

Not sure if I'm just muddying the waters.

[> [> Spoilery summaries the good and the bad.....no spoilers in my post just a few comments. -- Rufus, 22:23:05 05/14/03 Wed

I've been sitting on the information and actually did a version of this post in March.....that is how much I kept from everyone.

Scripts do end up online, and some people will do summaries on them. There is a problem to that and it is if the person doing the summary is only interested in one character. I read the summary for all the eps to the end of Buffy and was surprised on just how much these summaries (I have more information than the summaries btw) were. So I started doing posts on the scythe, and the Tarot. I'm so glad we have a place where we can go and ship if we want or talk about the issues each ep brings up....plus even better we know that we still have a Joss Whedon show that most of us here are already fond of.

[> So many great posts in this thread!! -- ponygirl, 14:06:15 05/14/03 Wed

[> [> Yes! Really great posts, everyone! -- Dyna, 15:23:28 05/14/03 Wed

[> Just a quick thank you, you all, nice thread. -- aliera, 15:24:46 05/14/03 Wed

Don't forget Buffy on A&E Biography tomorrow (Wed) -- Cheryl, 20:48:37 05/13/03 Tue

[> Review on the Biography episode -- Cheryl, 20:58:47 05/13/03 Tue

This if from AOL Entertainment News.

TV review - "Biography: Buffy the Vampire Slayer"

A&E)

By Ray Richmond

LOS ANGELES (Hollywood Reporter) - As we have come to know, one doesn't necessarily need to be a person to get the "Biography" treatment from A&E's signature series.

You can be a thing, too. So it is that the WB's and UPN's "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" is being sent into that gory night for good after seven seasons of campy horror fun and serious soap opera -- and it's "Biography" that gets to put the exclamation point on the show's shockingly successful run.

Indeed, as this final slay-ride for Buffy makes clear, this show was never really supposed to lift off of the ground, much less grow into a wildly popular (with fans and critics alike) franchise.

This entertaining, informative hour features liberal doses of creator/executive producer Joss Whedon (intelligent and disarming as always), fellow exec producer Marti Noxon and lengthy interviews with the cast members headed by Buffy herself, Sarah Michelle Gellar, along with Angel (David Boreanaz), Spike (James Marsters), Willow (Alyson Hannigan), Xander (Nicholas Brendon), Rupert (Anthony Stewart Head), Dawn (Michelle Trachtenberg) and Anya (Emma Caulfield). Behind-the-scenes footage and liberal sprinklings of show clips round out the well-constructed package.

Made clear in the "Bio" (titled "Buffy the Vampire Slayer: Television With a Bite") is that the show never would have happened if not for the belief of now-Fox Entertainment chief Gail Berman in developing what was essentially a failed 1992 film (starring Kristy Swanson in the lead) into a small-screen blend of wit and wisdom. That it not only survived the process but went on to become a memorable show is a credit to the vision of Whedon, who took chances with things like a 28-minute stretch without dialogue in the December 1999 episode "Hush" and the memorable musical episode "Once More, With Feeling" in November 2001. As this special makes clear, "Buffy" may not have changed television as we know it, but it surely made it a lot more fun.

[> [> I think... -- Tchaikovsky, 03:11:59 05/14/03 Wed

...that this is the one on the DVD which is recently out in Britain. In which case, though it might be worth watching if you've nothing better to do, I wouldn't tune in expecting too many revelations. It's mostly old stuff packaged to appear interesting to an audience who aren't so well-versed as an average member of this board is.

TCH

Wow. I'm just basking in the greatness. (spoilers 7.21 whatever it's called) -- Jay, 21:30:37 05/13/03 Tue

I should have learned my lesson not to doubt, but this episode spanked me. And seeing Joss's three leads from his three different shows from earlier this year, in the same scene was spine tingling.

I've been rewatching Firefly episodes so Captain Mal was fresh in my mind, especially War Stories. So the lead actor thing was forefront in my mind watching that scene.

[> Me too. This ep gave me chills the likes of which I haven't felt since "The Gift." -- Rob (totally confident the finale is gonna be a masterpiece), 21:50:21 05/13/03 Tue

[> Nice pick up! I didn't even notice. -- Valheru, 23:04:18 05/13/03 Tue

Angel, Buffy, and Mal. That must have been some scene to shoot. Three strong actors who we're all used to seeing in the lead, yet David and Nathan downplayed their inner primadonnas just right. It's also a neat sort of meta-metanarration for the series: in this corner, the roguishly dashing star of one show; in the other corner, the sexy hunk of another show; yet it's the strong little girl in the middle who has all the power. Still, can you imagine what the conversation must have been like between takes?

NATHAN: So...how do you guys like being stars of Joss's shows? It was great for me, but my show got cancelled.
SARAH: Yeah, but our show is retiring, so don't feel to bad. At least David still has a series.
DAVID: Uh...we're kinda waiting for word on that, actually.
(uncomfortable silence)
NATHAN: We're like our own private support group, huh?
JOSS: Quit fooling around, Fillion! I said "grunt as if your innards were spilling," not "gack as if your guts were spewing"! You were hit in the stomach by a scythe, not an axe!
SARAH: Get out while you can, guys. Get out while you can.
JOSS: And someone tell Head to put some god-darned pants on!

FE really confused me tonight. (spoilers End of Days) -- WickedBuffy :/, 22:35:21 05/13/03 Tue

When FE/Buffy morph was talking to Caleb about how it would be when they won - and it was quite excited that it would be able to enter any man, woman or child - what did that mean?

I thought it was already established that there was a little of the FE in everyone. So were there some hold-outs we didn't know about that has really p.o.ed the FE??

Or was it excited about being able to actually enter people, like it did to Caleb a few moments later.

But if all the people are gone, the world populated with demons and the FE - who would be left for the FE to "enter".

Maybe I'm not totally clear on the plan. They are or aren't going to destroy mankind and take over. Will demons kill all or send them "below", switching places. Or would humans be .. what?

What kind of world is the FE intent on creating and what role would the FE play in it?

[> help - please? -- WickedDense, 08:29:59 05/14/03 Wed

[> I have no clue, either, but also interested in others' theories. -- yez, 11:39:36 05/14/03 Wed

Especially since I'm beginning to feel like not a whole lot about the FE is ever really going to make much sense.

Well, the whole entering everyone thing did make me think of Jasmine on AtS. That's what she seemed to be going for, too, in the most direct and simple of reads.

But I'm hopelessly confused about where BtVS and AtS overlap. The picking-and-choosiness of it all is something I find quite annoying.

yez

[> SOMEBODY!!?? ANYBODY!!! What DOES the FE WIN if it WINS? -- WickedB ..ok, at least 200 of you have more sense than i do, 19:00:55 05/14/03 Wed

sorry for shouting... it's just that you are all mostly smarter than me and probably picked this up already, but

At what point in the war would the FE be declared the winner?

When all humans are dead? enslaved? eaten or refrigerated?

When there are more demons on earth than humans?

FE keeps offering up snippets of it, but it doesn't make much sense to me.

There must be at least one person out there who has more sense than I do. ::kffbaitkoffegokoff::

[> [> I doubt the "prize" is anything conventional -- BlueStem, 22:06:57 05/14/03 Wed

It's hard to believe that the First Evil would be so interested in killing humans. That's too much of an earthly goal that be-fit demons and other humans. For something that has existed since the beginning of time and practically invulnerable (if anyone is capable of evil, it exists), there's no reason for it to divest its powers on these little things.

I doubt Caleb knows what the FE really want either. He's a pawn. His misogyny is useful, therefore he's in the fold.

For all outward appearences, the FE wants to eliminate the Slayer line. It threatens Buffy and her friends. It directs minions to kill Potentials and blow up the Watcher's Council. But there must be more effective ways, aren't there?

So the FE's goal is probably more lofty than that. Its goal could be something as simple (and perhaps even obvious) as messing with Buffy. Driving every annoying bitch in the globe into Buffy's house sure sucks for her. Threatening her with Vampires would drive crazy. Turn her into a bitch that no one likes would separate her from her friends. Trap her into a love triangle between Angel and Spike. Yep, her life sucks.

But I don't know the goal behind these actions. I hope it will be explained in detail in the finale. But like I said before, I doubt it's something conventional like removing a line of physical soldiers for the good guys. The Slayers battle demons. Evil is a conceptual force. The physical/conventional achievements are merely bonuses for whatever goal that the FE has.

Miss Kitty Fantastico (spoilers) -- lost_bracelet, 23:58:01 05/13/03 Tue

I always wondered what happened to the cute black and white kitten that Tara and Willow had adopted during their first year of college. Turns out Dawn had an "accident" with the crossbow. No more Miss Kitty Fantastico. (Dawn mentioned this in passing to Xander outside the car just before he chloroformed and abducted her.)

[> :( This disturbed me very much.... (no true spoils below either) -- Briar (not happy w/ ME), 02:55:03 05/14/03 Wed

I am truly upset and I think putting that in what amounted to a throw away line was much more disturbing than the act of Willow calling on a Forest Creature to sacrifice it's life to save another when resurrecting Buffy.

I was surprised that so many people got upset about the deer when it was so traditionally staged as a ritual done by many Native Peoples through the millenia. Especially since I seem to be among the handful that noticed that the animals around were all mystically lighted and the deer had been powdered or painted to appear even more mystical....

But this was truly pandering to senseless death, IMO. Like it was supposed to be.... What? Funny? Cute? It wasn't any of those things to me. I don't know if MT just had a lousy delivery of the line or if it was meant to be that way, but I truly felt ill.

[> [> Re: :( This disturbed me very much.... (no true spoils below either) -- DEN, 03:50:54 05/14/03 Wed

In a year where a significant number of fan-disturbing loose ends have been connected, I consider this a half snark, half response to all those W/T shippers who have been anxious about Miss Kitty's fate since the end of s5. In another context, there seems to be a lot of senseless death and mutilation going around on Buffy recently--MKF is just a counterpoint.

[> [> [> Agreed... -- Rhys, 05:36:33 05/14/03 Wed

Seems to me that any of these fates below could have been suffered by Miss Kitty Fantastico:

1) The landlord found out that Willow and Tara had a cat and they had to give her away to a good home.

2) Miss Kitty Fantastico could have developed an expensive illness that the girls couldn't afford the medicine for (like feline epilepsy) and been given to someone who had the money and the love to care for her.

3) She could have run away.

4) She could have been picked up by a child who thought she was a stray and been taken home by said child.

5) She could have gotten sick (say, with feline distemper) and died quietly.

6) She could have been killed in a car accident.

Any of these would have worked, even, I think the fatalities. Cats do get sick and die. Cats do get hit buy cars.

But having a regular on the show kill Miss Kitty Fantastico, even by accident? Very, very tacky.

Honestly, ME. What WERE you thinking?

[> [> [> [> Re: Agreed... -- Slainey, 06:53:07 05/14/03 Wed

Consider all the stuff my cats get into I completely understand. Just yesterday i was trying to move something big and heavy and my cats wanted to be right under it.
I saw the line as meaning the Miss Kitty set off a crossbow that Dawn left lying around. You know, it doesn't mean the cat is dead. Maybe they decided a house full of weapons was no place for a cat.

[> [> [> [> [> Agree. The line is terrible ambiguous. And given... -- Random, 07:47:49 05/14/03 Wed

the exact phrasing, it seems quite likely that ME wasn't implying that MKF was killed in the incident. She could have merely set it off, as Slainey says. My theory is that she got grazed (think: how easy would it have been for something the size of a cat to both release the projectile and been in its direct path simultaneously.) Here's to MKF living out his/her days happily on a farm

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Agree. The line is terrible ambiguous. And given... -- Miss Edith, 13:21:00 05/14/03 Wed

I assumed Dawn's quip was because she was responsible for the death. Otherwise why would she bring it up? IMO Dawn was saying they'd better be careful with the crossbow after Miss Kitty Fantistico was accidently shot by her. And I found it a pretty tasteless joke. But then I felt the same way in Storyteller when kids were exploding and it was meant to be funny. In episodes like Earshot death was treated seriously, in Barganning the sacrifice of the deer was a very serious moment with a real emhasis placed on it. Willow is even attacked by the demon over the blood staining her hands. Some of MEs attempts at humour in season 7 have left a nasty taste in my mouth.

[> [> [> [> [> Yeah! Okay - I'm actually willing to hang onto that one and thank you! -- Briar Rose, 01:17:30 05/15/03 Thu

Do you have any idea how common joking about cat murder is used and considered to be funny? I think the only other fur person someone can have in their life that people are so commonly inconsiderate as to make murder jokes about are rabbits. It just makes me sick.

[> [> [> [> I thought it was funny in an "Oh my God, THAT's what happened to her!?" way...I'm also very evil -- Majin Gojira, 06:54:34 05/14/03 Wed

[> [> [> [> I thought it was hilarious, in a "meta" way. -- Rob, 07:36:53 05/14/03 Wed

The thing is neither of those options you listed would have been funny. And the thing is, this happens on TV shows all the time. It's a convention. People get a pet, and then it's never heard from again. So to explain why she's not there, since people have been asking for years, they made up a funny reason. Yes, the humor was a little twisted, but I loved it. It was more of a shout-out and a metanarration than meant to be taken seriously and with great shock and horror.

Rob

[> [> *Gads*, people! What really happened: -- HonorH, 07:34:12 05/14/03 Wed

The unfortunate "incident" was no more than Dawn letting fly a bolt too close to the kitty. In the grand tradition of cats, Miss Kitty yowled and bolted from the house, and the entire household ran out looking for her. Unfortunately, before they could get to her, there was another unfortunate incident with an un-reformed Clem.

Don't think so? I've got as much canonical evidence for my theory as the rest of you. Calm down over the cat.

[> [> [> Gads, HonorH...you were doing so well, and then you let Honorificus creep in at the end! -- Random, 08:37:16 05/14/03 Wed

[> [> [> [> Sorry. She does tend to do that. -- HonorH, 17:45:36 05/14/03 Wed

But really, the exact quote on the show is that Dawn's not leaving crossbows laying around "since that thing with Miss Kitty Fantastico". So really, what do we know about Miss Kitty's fate? There's no reason to assume Dawn killed her.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Sorry. She does tend to do that. -- leslie, 10:58:13 05/15/03 Thu

In fact, you could argue that if Dawn had had an unfortunate cross-bow accident, she wouldn't be worrying about the cross-bows lying around, she would be worried about picking them up.

So, how about the cross-bow was lying around, Miss Kitty Fantastico stuck her adorable little nose in the wrong place, as cats are wont to do, and she nearly shot Dawn?

[> Re: Miss Kitty Fantastico (spoilers) -- CW, 06:21:46 05/14/03 Wed

You know you are reading a lot into this. It could have happened as you say, but that's not what Dawn said. All she said was there was an accident with Miss Kitty involved and implied that it had to do with leaving a crossbow lying around. She never said that the cat died or even that the cat was the 'victim' of the accident. During some summer since we last saw her, the cat could have been playing with the tigger of a stray crossbow and shot Dawn in the butt. Think possitive!

[> [> ROFL! -- dub ;o), 09:25:42 05/14/03 Wed

[> perhaps a kitten gambler (not naming anyone) -- MsGiles, 06:55:07 05/14/03 Wed

could have duped them ('lend me that kitten and I'll bring you 20 back! They'll be rescued from a demonic end! It's a sure thing, trust me')

[> [> Helplessly ROFL!! -- Vesica, 11:53:43 05/14/03 Wed

I want to offically vote for the unfortunate victim of a poker addict theory put forward above.

I have to say, I did not interpret Dawn's line to mean the MKF was deceased...only that cats and crossbows are not a good combo!

[> Of the several uses for cat guts -- Tyreseus, 18:07:49 05/14/03 Wed

Sheesh people, the line was rather ambiguous as to the actual fate of MKF. Might as well assume that something happened to snap the string of the crossbow and they were forced to utilize the old medeival method of creating a tight wire by using cat guts (like they often used for musical instruments).

Until they release the season 7 DVD and one of the writers comments on this line, I doubt we can get too upset about what was actually implied.

[> [> Didn't Willow play the violin? ;> -- WickedBuffy (I know she played the flute), 18:47:17 05/14/03 Wed

[> Dawns Demonic Side -- Archilochian, 20:07:36 05/14/03 Wed

I found Dawns admission quite revealing. Whether or not she killed Miss Kitty is superfluous to the issue.

The issue being that Dawn had used Miss K for crossbow target practice!

Yes. Target practice.

The chances of a cat accidentally being in the crosshairs of a weapon is quite small. A recent report recently released by PETA mentions the possibility of a small animal accidentally being the target by a crossbow wielding teenage girls as less than 5%. And if that animal is a cat - the chances it's an unforeseen occurrence drops drastically to just under .0072%.

This reveals a side to Dawn some have hinted at - but were unable to prove. Her demonic side.

Her kitten-craving, hair-curling evil dark side.

I believe the finale next week will unmask Dawns true nature. A shock to many. But simply a confirmation for the small group who discerned her true nefarious nature long, long ago.

[> [> Yes! Oh, yes! -- Honorificus (Charmingly Innocent And Corrupt), 13:09:13 05/15/03 Thu

You have the right of it. Witness her ruthlessness with Xander (though I really wish she'd taken the simple expedient of stabbing him). The child is a true menace, as evidenced by her increasing fashion sense. With the Key at its side, the First will be truly unstoppable. All shall perish in flames!

[> [> [> Yes H! Why don't you bring the marshmallows. I'll bring the chocolate & grahamcrackers. -- Archilochian ::expects a fiery fine time::, 14:43:28 05/15/03 Thu

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