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Does a sex scene fail if it squicks you? -- shambleau, 13:52:33 05/11/03 Sun

I noticed in the comments on the sex scenes in Touched a number of comments that the sex scenes didn't "work". Usually, the reason given was that they were boring or offensive on some level, with the assumption being that the reason for showing the scene was to turn the viewers on. If the particular scene didn't do that, then it failed. That assumption seems to operate on a lot of the other sex scenes they've shown over the years, too.

In Touched,IMO, the writers had very little interest in the heat of those couplings. You were being given a visual sampling of the various ways that people can "touch". People have various reactions to seeing characters they like or dislike have sex on screen, and those reactions are valid for them. It doesn't mean that the scene was no good just because they're repulsed or whatever.

I've always thought that the absolute disgust that most people seem to feel for the Buffy/Riley sex in WTWTA is very interesting because it mirrors the disgust that the woman in charge of the orphan kids was trying to instill in her charges. I don't think that we were supposed to feel excited by that sex. Their inability to stop, the way they were filmed as if they were at the bottom of a well, the overheatedness, are exactly what the old woman feared that all kids would do if she didn't cleanse them. That sex was a representation of how she would imagine it, if she'd even admit to herself her obsession.

The Buffy/Riley sex was also the representation of the first stages of a relationship, of course, when you are only focused on each other and are blind to the external world. And while, for the couple involved, it's enchanting, for others, not so much. In fact, it can be downright annoying. Again, not only was that annoyed reaction shown by various characters in the ep, it was echoed by a large part of the audience feeling the same way. I don't know if that reaction was deliberately invoked by the writers. Still, to think that they wanted the sex only to be "hot" and therefore the episode failed because people didn't find it so seems unlikely to me.

[> Great point. (Spoilers to Touched) -- Sophist, 14:06:48 05/11/03 Sun

I think the "hotness" (or lack thereof) of the scenes in Touched never was intended as the message. To me, the message was the spectrum of connection that ran (IMO) from B/S (most meaningful) to W/K to X/A to F/W (least meaningful). FE/Buffy's comments to Caleb served as ironic commentary in at least 2 ways: the FE didn't understand the distinctions; and the power of the need to "feel" could be lead to acts just as empty as the FE's desire.

[> Pierced things, yiiicccchhhh! -- Dandy, 14:43:31 05/11/03 Sun

Personally piercings just make me feel physically naseous so the Kennedy thing was really difficult for me to watch.

I thought the point of the episode was to contrast all the 'cheap' sex of the others with the truly emotionally touching scene between Buffy and Spike, thier honesty, vulnerability, emotional nakedness. She let him truly see her, finally.

[> [> Re: Pierced things, yiiicccchhhh! -- CW, 15:20:27 05/11/03 Sun

I was put off, by the use of the tongue jewel as well, but not by the fact she had it. I really felt that ME wasn't trying to promote one of the scenes over the other. Instead it seemed like they were showing that each pair needed something different. Faith and Wood were steamy, Xander and Anya almost desperate, Kennedy and Willow, tender with a strong hint of kinky, Spike and Buffy comfortable and trusting. Faith before prison, had just used sex to work off steam, and using someone else was just part of the high. This time she asked Wood if it was something he'd mind. Anya used to talk about Xander as if he were a sex toy, she might one day get bored with. This time it looked like she missed him. We've always thought of Willow as the prim, proper, shy one. The tongue jewel represents something exotic and maybe a little dangerous in Kennedy she needs right now, that she'd never get from Oz or Tara. Before Spike and Buffy had had sex over and over, but never had the ability to be tender with each other.

[> [> [> Oops, spoilers for Touched above -- CW, 15:42:13 05/11/03 Sun

[> [> [> Re: Pierced things, yiiicccchhhh! -- anom, 16:28:04 05/11/03 Sun

"...Kennedy and Willow, tender with a strong hint of kinky,..."

Huh? Where do you get "kinky" from? ME has a strong record of hinting (at least!) at kinky when they want to, & I didn't see any indication of that in the Willow/Kennedy scene. Do you consider Kennedy's tongue stud in itself to connote kinkiness? I don't find pierced things any more sexy than Dandy does (my reaction to the stud was "aw, eewww!), but I don't jump from that to any assumption that people w/pierced parts are any more inclined to kinky than people w/unpierced parts.

[> [> [> [> Re: Pierced things, yiiicccchhhh! -- CW, 16:49:02 05/11/03 Sun

my reaction to the stud was "aw, eewww"

I thought that the very definition of kinky sex was doing something for arousal not everyone would find in the least bit sexy. And for anyone ready to pounce, please understand, I'm not talking about choice of partners.

I think the emphasis on the jewel was fairly obvious in the scene. So we need to ask why.

[> [> [> [> Re: Pierced things, yiiicccchhhh! -- Malandanza, 17:58:46 05/11/03 Sun

"Do you consider Kennedy's tongue stud in itself to connote kinkiness? I don't find pierced things any more sexy than Dandy does (my reaction to the stud was "aw, eewww!), but I don't jump from that to any assumption that people w/pierced parts are any more inclined to kinky than people w/unpierced parts."

CW may not agree, but I do consider certain piercings to connote kinkiness. Perhaps it's due to the cultural differences between the Jaded and Cosmopolitan East and the more Traditional and Prudish Southwest, or a generational thing, or a mixture of the two. I can remember when belly button piercings were sufficiently exotic to have kinky connotations (sadly, that's no longer the case). But the tongue piercing derives its kinky connotations from its purpose (and suddenly I'm remembering that Chris Rock parody song, "No Sex in the Champagne Room").

Why get a pierced tongue? Why endure the pain, the tongue swelled up to monstrous proportions, the months of waiting for it to heal (and hoping that the old story about dog spit being cleaner than human saliva isn't entirely true)? Oh yeah -- so you'll be more proficient at orally servicing your significant other. This servile mentality (or the appearance of it) is where the kink comes in. A tongue piercing just doesn't have the same non-sexual connotations as, say, a pierced eyebrow or nose.

Perhaps it means nothing back in the East, where Kennedy grew up, wealthy and pampered. Perhaps it she was just trying to find something that would make her parents angry with her (or notice her). Or maybe it was to puzzle her stuffy, traditional watcher. I can think of lots of reasons why she might have gotten her tongue pierced that have little to do with sex (she certainly didn't seem particularly servile, but there's no telling what her early sexual history was like) -- but if I had been on a date with her (never mind how unlikely that is since she's gay and fictitious) and noticed the piercing, my first thought would have been "that's kinda kinky -- maybe this will be a more interesting date than I had thought".

[> [> [> [> [> I can't speak for Arizona, but in CA you'd be making a huge mistake -- Sophist, 18:07:10 05/11/03 Sun

in your expectations. My daughters are just the age where tongue piercing (and other) is a fashion statement, nothing more. Their friends have them (my daughters don't). At one time it may have been a signal of sexual adventurousness, but not any more.

I, on the other hand, find them sexy. It's one reason I liked the scene so much.

[> [> [> [> [> [> The empirical data I've collected suggests otherwise :) -- Malandanza, 20:23:19 05/11/03 Sun

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> ROFL -- Sophist, 08:00:49 05/12/03 Mon

[> [> [> [> [> [> The Southwest is Prudish?*ROTFLMAPAO. Which part of "the Southwest" would that be exactly? -- Briar Rose (LA born & bred typical kinkster witch), 01:19:40 05/13/03 Tue

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: The Southwest is Prudish?*ROTFLMAPAO. Which part of "the Southwest" would that be exactly? -- Malandanza, 10:53:01 05/13/03 Tue

California is only a part of the Southwest by an accident of geology. Culturally, it belongs to the decadent East -- or, perhaps, a culture all its own.

[> [> [> Agree, but piercing has its own meaning -- mamcu (pierced conservatively, once per ear), 16:49:24 05/11/03 Sun

I think that Faith's piercing is right in there with makeup, clothes, etc. She intends it as a sign of rebellion against the status quo. It's just a fashion statement that can spill over to other aspects of life, but still ultimately just fashion--there were generations of our ancestors who were repulsed by bobbed hair, lipstick,... there are people who don't think women should bare their faces.

It's all just style .... if there is anything else.

[> [> [> [> No need to defend fashion. -- CW, 17:07:06 05/11/03 Sun

But, don't you think it's a little odd, this was the first time we noticed Kenndy's piercing?

[> [> [> [> [> Did she get it for the scene? -- WickedBuffy, 17:10:30 05/11/03 Sun

I never noticed it before either. (Not that I always notice, but usually.)

Did it come with the actress or was it added in? Did she get it done for the show? Or is it fake, like Angels tattoo?

If it was added in specifically for the show, then I'd lean to the side of your who say it was symbolic. If she had it pre-BtVS, then maybe not.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Did she get it for the scene? -- CW, 17:20:49 05/11/03 Sun

It's a valid question. But, If ME had decided to show Sarah's or Alyson's real tatoos after all these years, would that mean there necessarily was nothing symbolic about them being shown?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Did she get it for the scene? -- WickedBuffy, 17:31:20 05/11/03 Sun

umm, that last question pretzeled my brain! :D

I thought they were covered up because their characters were supposed to be so pure and naive and tattoos somehow symbolized the opposite?

Or was it just the choices a particular wardrobe consultant used in the early years?

I guess like time, only Joss can really tell.

Ok. For all we know, until someone tracks it down in a fanmag or something, is that it was part of Kennedys character being slowly revealed. If the actress did have one, they could have just had her take it out for the beginning episodes. (umm, can you take those out for abit?)

Or, they flipped a coin and one writer got sole and complete writ about the ideal W/K sex scene.

Next, we will be shown Kennedys trapeze leaning haphazardly against a door in the background of some scene. Then we might be getting a clearer picture and a pattern going.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Also, it's not out of character -- mamcu, 17:49:56 05/11/03 Sun

I guess what I meant earlier was that Faith and Kennedy both have the style that goes along with piercing and tattoos, so it would almost be more remarkable if they didn't have those accessories. I still think it's just a marker of where she puts herself in the world.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Also, it's not out of character -- CW, 17:54:55 05/11/03 Sun

Which all goes back to my intial point that Kennedy is giving Willow something straight-laced Tara, and you-don't-want-to-see-my-dark-side Oz could never give her.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Did she get it for the scene? -- O'Cailleagh, 19:18:43 05/13/03 Tue

I'm almost positive that Kennedy has had a tongue stud for a while...I'm sure I noticed it pretty early on (I have one myself so I guess I notice that sort of thing more...)
And about the fake stud issue..I really can't see how one could wear a fake for any length of time without discomfort or it falling out a lot.How would it even be attached? Cos a clip-on thing would show and saliva would wash glue away....

O'Cailleagh

[> [> [> [> [> [> It's really easy to keep a tongue piercing hidden... -- Kate, 17:24:56 05/11/03 Sun

Since the questions been asked, though I'd add my $0.02. My brother had a tongue piercing and it was months before I ever noticed it and the only reason I did, I think, was because he happened to be playing with it one day. He kept it hidden from my parents for like a year. I highly doubt Kennedy's was fake (is that possible?) or that IL got it for the show. There really just wasn't a reason before that scene for her to show it off.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: It's really easy to keep a tongue piercing hidden... -- WickedBuffy, 17:36:16 05/11/03 Sun

ahh, ok, thanks for clearing up that "hidden" question

About the "fake (is that possible?)" question: yes.

You can get fake ones for just about any body part. I've seen them sold at malls, little hole-in-the-all shops, online - and even homemade ones. Great for shocking parents.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Huh! See, you do learn something new everyday. lol Thanks WickedBuffy -- Kate, 18:03:43 05/11/03 Sun

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I think the tongue piercing is false -- Dandy, 21:12:18 05/11/03 Sun

I think Jane Epsenson said in the Succubus interview that the tongue piercing for Kennedy was something the writers discussed and decided to do. Not sure. I would have to listen to it all again to be positive.
Wardrobe or props would be able to provide a fake piercing. Of course the actress may have a pierced tongue (yick again yick-sorry can't help myself) but it is easily faked.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Why, though, would they want to add a fake one if she didn't have one already? -- Rob, 13:17:47 05/12/03 Mon

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Adding more subtle info about the character, would be my guess. -- WickedUnpierced, 17:01:50 05/12/03 Mon

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Agree w/ Dandy - there has been no typical "stud lisp" to her speech thus far. -- Briar, 01:41:24 05/13/03 Tue

I have never met anyone with a tongue piercing (and in LA that's lots of people if you go to many clubs or are around any form of young crowds) that didn't have a distinct lisp or other type of odd speech thing because of the piercing. They may range from almost unintelligible speech to slight lisping and clicking when speaking, but they are always there.

There is a physical reason for it... Your tongue requires the ability to make a frictionary connection with the back of the teeth/upper palate to make sounds like "s" and "t." The stud makes that connection less possible. It can also affect the speech patterns that require stringing some consonant and vowel combinations together. And in cases where the person also has soem sort of speech impediment in the first place it can make their speech patterns "mush mouthed" because the stud makes the tongue unable to form more rounded consonants and vowels in combination as well. Yes, even after the swelling goes down.*L

I always look for the tongue stud when I hear an overt lisp or a "too loose/mushy" speaking pattern and can even pick them up on the phone 90% of the time.*L I have no tongue stud and do have a slight lisp which is more pronounced when I'm tired - but it's a different type of lisp from a normal speech impediment type of sound.

I really don't think she could have hidden it so long on the show, unless she has had some serious speech therapy to overcome that.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> well, on the tv show "First Date" ... -- WickedVidiot ::citing very reliable references::, 10:46:46 05/13/03 Tue

there are daters with tongue studs... and on other shows I've seen. Never heard anything different to clue me in there was a tongue piercing until it actually showed. Some looked so large I actually wondered why I didn't hear anything.

I don't know if it's a tv thing or not - or if you can exchange a large stud for a much smaller one whenever you want. But I have heard the lisping speech before, so I would recognize it if it popped up.

::mostly my own teeth hurt in empathy for the studded persons teeth when I see one of those::

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> You got me thinking WV... WHY don't people on TV with them sound like people in RL with them??? -- Briar Rose (think, think, think....), 13:50:21 05/13/03 Tue

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> yeah, just keep your mouth shut! ok, not so easy if you're kennedy... @>) -- anom, 22:05:40 05/12/03 Mon

[> [> [> [> [> But I don't think she was licking anyone earlier! -- mamcu, 17:29:40 05/11/03 Sun

[> [> [> [> [> [> not that they showed, anyway. -- contumelious, 19:28:58 05/11/03 Sun

[> One person "squick" is another person "wowzaa!". -- WickedBuffy, 16:22:01 05/11/03 Sun

How can there ever be a unanimous decison about the squickiness of a sex scene? It will always fail for some and succeed for others.

It seems that a sex scene symbolism in a weekly television show that is about many things would be incredibly difficult to pull off. Unless it's was incredibly obvious and pointed out in the dialogue.

Everyone is so different and has their own specific and unique opinions about sex, *especially* about sex, it seems - how could you subtlely portray a metaphor in this medium? Even the writers and directors and producers would need to agree on how something they all experience differently, could *be* symbolized. To get the exact message across so that everyone understood it, crew AND viewers, it would need to be very blatant and obvious.

I think it's easier to do in movies, though. There are usually just a few core issues going on and the length itself provides a more solid base for symbolism.

So if there was an underlying metaphor to a sex scene, it would only be a valid metaphor for some people. Which might be ok for some producers - but to stay on television you need to appeal to a large crowd of people. Just putting a sex scene in is at the risk of offending some people, assuredly there will be a group that *any* sex scene would squick. And a group that will preserve it on tape forever in their "favorite sex scene" collection.

It just seems it would be very difficult for the people making the show to agree on a metaphor for a specific sex scene when there is such a range of values already attached.

We were talking earlier about "chemistry'. It's about each viewers individual chemistry with the characters on the screen. That's why every opinion is true. From "OMG I threw up and then shot my television it was so offensive!" to "No, I adored every toe-licking moment and watched it over and over again, thankgodforTivo!"

(Of course, it's just a one-sided kind of chemistry.)

Completely subjective.

And some people are even "in" to squick!

I think I had too much coffee at brunch.

[> [> Very true. (Spoilers to Touched Btvs and Apocalypse NowAts) -- s'kat, 20:15:32 05/11/03 Sun

Heck for proof, just read the rest of the board.

We were talking earlier about "chemistry'. It's about each viewers individual chemistry with the characters on the screen. That's why every opinion is true. From "OMG I threw up and then shot my television it was so offensive!" to "No, I adored every toe-licking moment and watched it over and over again, thankgodforTivo!"

Very true. I continue to be amazed at the number of ways people can react to the same scene. Or the same character.

It all has to do with what you identify with or what turns you on. And it apparently is different for everyone.

Ex: As many people were turned on as they were turned off by these sex scenes. In fact I think this list probably hits the EWWW, that's just sick or can't see that and The WOWSA - I need to rewatch that again spectrum. Most controversial sex scenes in Btvs and Ats.In no particular order of importance. And yes, believe it or not - I've seen people post that they loved or hated every single solitary one.

1. The Bronze Beta Scene in Dead Things, with B/S on the balcony

2. Faith raping and almost killing Xander in Consequences

3. Angel having violent/possibly nonconsensual? sex with Darla in Reprise

4. W/K scene in Touched

5. Drusilla torturing Angel with Holy Water in What's My Line Part II

6. Spike and the Buffy bot in Intervention

7. Cordy and Connor in Apocalypse Nowish

8. Spike and Buffy in Smashed.

9. Riley and Buffy in Hush

10. Wes and Lilah in the episode where Lilah dresses like Fred or when Justine is in the closet with a bucket.

Each and every one of them has caused reams of controversial discussion - with people arguing from both sides of the fence. And absolutely no consensus is reached.

[> [> [> Re-experiencing those scenes really slapped me awake this morning! -- WickedBuffy, 09:13:24 05/12/03 Mon

Great list!

And I can see why it would bring out a vast array of responses.

As I read each one, I could envision many specific perspectives. Do you think the writers seek that kind of reaction at times to scenes? Or are they caught offguard at times at the stir something creates in the viewers?

(I guess it makes for good publicity. From the "Any publicty is good publicity" attitude.)

Is a board consensus even able to be reached about something like this? has it been?

[> [> [> [> Consensus? On the boards? LOL! -- s'kat, 21:57:53 05/12/03 Mon

We'll see if this posts this time around. I've tried five other times and each time voy eats it. Voy is especially hungry today or at least from my end of things.

Do you think the writers seek that kind of reaction at times to scenes? Or are they caught offguard at times at the stir something creates in the viewers?

I think it's a bit of both. I know from the interview on the Succubus club that they intended us to endlessly debate the last scene in Empty Places. But they did not intend for us to see Tara's death in Seeing Red as a lesbian cliche
or the AR scene as quite the horrible insult many fans did.
Nor did they intend us to debate whether Spike sought the soul or not or whether it worked. I think they were taken aback by that to some extent. But the controversary over Spike/Wood in LMPTM? Yep they wanted a debate. But probably not some of the debates they got. Evil writers!

I know Whedon had long dreamed of the Bronze Beta scene in Dead Things. And he pitched that entire episode. Dead Things was Whedon's idea. Same with Gone and the invisible Buffy playing with Spike. Whedon has said in countless interviews that he likes to see how far he can push the envelope on the censors, how much he can get away with and he likes to make his audience a little uncomfortable. His favorite episodes often do just that. Although - I think it's a bit much to re-show us the same painful/squicky scene in the previews for six shows running. I mean it got to the point in which I was closing my eyes during the previews. They got way too much mileage out of the flaying scene, the AR scene, amongst others...so yes I think they like to hurt us, the sadistic bastards. And we let them!
What does that say about us, I wonder?

Is a board consensus even able to be reached about something like this? has it been?

While you no doubt meant this rhetorically...I feel this fiendish need to talk about it. From what I can see the board can't come to a consensus regarding it's top favorite and bottom worst episodes of Buffy, or favorite/least favorite character, or ship or anything. Well it does appear to be the general consensus that Btvs and Ats are the two best shows on TV, since everyone comes here to discuss them. So we have that.

The funny thing is we feel the need to debate endlessly on certain topics. I swear LMPTM may succeed Seeing Red as the most talked about episode on the board. We've gone nuts over the Wood/spike thing. To the extent in which I almost wish someone would yell: Enough Already. Let's just agree to disagree. Spike...he does bring out the debater in people, doesn't he? ;-)

And we also all have very strong views on the characters and the relationships, but very little to no consensus.
There seems to be as many B/S shippers/B/X shippers as there are B/A shippers. And they aren't going to convert each other or ever agree. Doesn't matter what the show does as long as there is fanfic, any ship lives on.

The best we can do I think is try to be tolerant of each others views. And not get personal. Once a debate gets personal or starts attacking the poster not the arguement...it's time to leave it. And believe me, I'm as quilty as the next person for not knowing when to do this. There are far too many posts I wish I could take back. If someone had asked me three years ago if I could get this emotional/passionate about a tv show, I'd say they were nuts. Sigh.Live and learn. ;-)

[> [> [> [> Proving everything's OK as long as it's consensual ;-> -- mamcu, 05:56:18 05/13/03 Tue

[> [> [> [> [> LOL mamcu! -- WickedBuffy, 22:07:15 05/13/03 Tue

Most disturbing, horrific or violent moments in Buffyverse history -- lunasea, 19:15:08 05/11/03 Sun

I was thinking about this, since there is such a fine line between sex and violence in the Buffyverse. Most of the really graphic stuff occurs on Angel, since it is a full hour later. That show wouldn't work at 8. Since the sexy thread started with Buffy, so will I. Please share your own lists.

Buffy

5. Just to keep this from being a Spuffy list, I will put this at the beginning. There are so many disturbing moments to choose from. Some are more subtle than others. All are supposed to be disturbing. I will go with SMG's least favorite scene for the most disturbing (the scene that should have made the most ardent Spuffy shipper give up), Dead Things by the Master of all things disturbing Steven S. DeKnight: Sex in high places

This part of the scene wasn't in the shooting script. That only happens with a few things. What Spike says. How Buffy can't resist. The aspect of her watching everyone while they are doing it. It doesn't have to be the kind of sex that makes the house fall down for it to be disturbing.

4. Vampires are supposed to be creepy, but some things are creepier than others. One of these moments is in Doppelgangerland (how do I get those marks above the a?) by Joss Whedon: When I think of you I touch myself

It wasn't the homosexual overtones that were creepy (those I liked), so much as the idea of doing it with yourself. Vamp Willow actually licked Willow. That is disturbing on so many levels, none of which have anything to do with homosexuality. As my husband puts it, isn't that psuedo-incestual? As Willow said, "Okay, Ack! Ack! No more!You're freaking me out!" She wasn't the only one.

3. Season 6 we saw her cross numerous lines, mostly directed at Spike. The season before we saw what Buffy could do when she was upset in Into the Woods by Marti Noxon: That'll teach you to suck on my boyfriend

Buffy is the Slayer. She kills vampires. We don't judge her for this. She does this to make the world safe. As she tells Angel, she doesn't hate vampires. She doesn't kill out of hatred or revenge. She is horrified when she manages to stab Faith. When Buffy comes face to face with the vamp whore that was doing Riley, at first she isn't going to kill her.

As Marti writes "The whole fight takes about eight seconds - and the only other creature left standing in the alley besides Buffy is the junkie vampire girl who bit Riley. The girl trembles, wide-eyed, before Buffy. Clearly messed up and harmless. Buffy hesitates. She can't kill this one. It stinks of pointless vengeance."

But our heroine changes her mind. In an expressionless mechanical motion she throws her staff at the girl as she is running away.

2. The decline of Faith was shown with so many moments. The one that stands out for me was in Enemies by Doug Petrie: Faith throws a party.

We know that Faith is over on the dark side. This scene shows how much of humanity she has lost. The way that Faith not only kills poor Skyler, but the sheer butchery of it combined with her shoving the body off of her might have even shocked her a bit. She looks at her hands in shocking contrast to the end of "Bad Girls." She seems genuine when she goes to see Angel afterwards.

1. Another easy one. Both the action and that everyone's best friend is doing it makes this easily the most disturbing, horrific and violent moments on Buffy (but not the Buffyverse), Villains by the goddess of all things twisted Marti Noxon: Mysogist's don't need skin.

UPN told ME that they could only have so many seconds to show this. They got a lot of mileage out of it. How many times did we see it on the previously seen segments? For me the chilling moment was to hear "bored now" again. That phrase was Vamp Willow's catch phrase. To hear that coming out of grieving Willow's mouth, sent shivers down my spine. That didn't last long as what followed it caused me to freeze. Xander said what we were all thinking "Oh my god."

Angel

5. Hard one to choose. There are so many season 2 moments that I am going to exclude the obvious, Reunion by Shaun Ryan and Tim Minear: Lawyers make tastely snacks. There is also the scene that makes Dru and Vamp Willow look like amateurs, In the Dark by Doug Petrie: Professionals can do it better. There are many lines here and there of Angel talking about his past that as Cordelia puts it "I'm starting to get used to being creeped out and comforted at the same time." There are plenty of villians that are beyond disturbing. Angelus says some amazingly disturbing things. Angel is definately a darker show.

Number five doesn't have any one particular episode because there are just so many moments that go into this story and it is hard to pick just one. We first see him torturing Angelus in Offspring by David Greenwalt (this is really the David Greenwalt list): The spiral to Quor-toth of a good man

Both what Darla/Angelus do to Holtz and what he becomes and does to Connor make him a horrific moment unto himself, perhaps more horrific than any of the vampires because he has a soul and was a very good man at one time. He did not find any sort of redemption when he died and did perhaps the most horrific thing in the Buffyverse (and that is saying a whole lot).

4. Currently the one thing we are all still trying to get out of our minds (Lilah could have rented us the brain sucker. I would have paid anything for it) Apocalypse Nowish by Steven S. DeKnight: Why slash fic shouldn't make it to the small screen

Only fair. Steven writes some of the most disturbing seaon 6 moments on Buffy. When he went over to the much darker Angel, he could be ever darker. Cordy says to Connor, I want you to have something real. ACCKKKKK!!! What are they doing?!? Kissing. EWWWWWW!!! Please stop. Please cut to something else, anything. Thank you. Nice montage of the destruction. That is much better to watch. WAIT they are going back. THEY ARE IN BED!!!!! NO!!!!!! It can't get any worse than this. Yes it can, Angel is watching it. I don't want to watch it.

This was made even worse by the interminable wait for the next episode, "Habeas Corpses" by Jeff Bell. That episode did what most episodes that season did, started exactly where the last one left off. Season 4 Angel basically just runs together. Don't even try to figure out how many days it should have taken. Time was left behind. Practically every episode has a clip of this horrific moment in the previous seen segment.

If that is only #4, can you imagine what 1-3 are?

3. The idea of rape/violation that is played out in the metaphor of the bite and siring is taken to a new level with First Impressions by Shaun Ryan: dreams can come true

For an entire season we wanted to know why Wolfram and Hart brought Darla back. This episode we get various dreams Angel is having of Darla and him in what approximates a normal life. She is supportive and one could even say nice. Then we find out it isn't exactly a dream. The shot at the very end of a naked Darla on top of a sleeping Angel wasn't violent, but it went beyond disturbing.

2. The original scene was much better, but probably too racy in suggestion for even 9:00. Dear Boy by David Greenwalt: Snake in the woodshed

We get to hear about the vamping of Dru over on Buffy in "Lie to Me," but here we get to see what really drove it. The student surpassed the teacher in what is arguably his worst crime. The setting, the contrast between Darla and Dru, the pure sadism and glee of Angelus "Eternal torment. (Grabs a hold of Darla's arms and rolls them so he is back on top with her under him on the floor) Am I learning?" Intermingled with Angelus' moment of glory was the heightened sexuality of Darla and him. To top it off, we know what sort of vampire Dru becomes and how Angel feels about this action. It was all too horrific, you couldn't turn away.

1. That is an easy one. Easily the most horrific and violent moment in the entire Buffyverse is in The Trial by David Greenwalt: It's worse the second time around

The revamping of Darla. The shooting script says it best "It's as ugly as a gang rape." That coupled with Angel helpless and forced to watch it makes it my number one with a stake disturbing, horrific and violent moment. Dru is the piece de resistance. The way they film her coming in and the level of incest just heighten the scene. Lindsey adds yet another level considering his feelings for Darla and his animosity towards Angel. To even make is worse, before this is one of the most tender moments in Angel history. It almost seemed as though the episode was going to end with that. The transition from that to the door being kicked in and the violence that resulted easily makes this the most disturbing scene.

I'm sure your list will vary, so please share.

[> How about that shirt?! Spoilers for A1, Sense and Sensitivity -- VampRiley, 19:30:31 05/11/03 Sun

Dude, that shirt Angel wore to keep that fat, mafia guy from escaping from the harbor.

1) Was it disturbing?

Yes.

2) Was it horrific?

Don't get me started on the color scheme.

3) Was it violent?

It was a violation of my eyes. I still have nightmares.

VR

[> [> Re: How about that shirt?! -- Anneth, 20:39:52 05/11/03 Sun

BuffyVerse Fashion Blunders (compiled with assistance from VampRiley, Bit, Random, DeadSoul, Fidhle, Malandaza, and ocailleagh)

Runners-up: Buffy's tie-dyed pants and sparkly halter-top from The Replacement; Buffy's frilly halter-top from Real Me; the Initiative wardrobe, altogether.

5. TIE: Angel's Velour Jacket, from BtVS S1, and with The Yellow and Blue-striped monstrosity from Shiny Happy People.

4. Willow (un-undead) in Dopplegangland: "Well look at me. I'm fuzzy." I mean, c'mon! A pink sweater with fake daisies! And matching pink tights!

3. Xander, in anything but a suit. The thought of Xander/Slovenly-Xander's outfit in The Replacement still makes Bit shudder. I have proof.

2. Pretty much everything Cordy wears after going blonde, AtS S3 (except the "belly-dancer from hell/pregnancy coming-out outfit" - It's too evil to be a blunder!)

1. TIE: Riley in Xander's pants: "does he hate me in some way I don't know about?" (Yoko Factor) and Spike in Xander's hawaiian shirt and jean shorts: "Don't look at me." (Doomed)

And the Buffy Summers Special Award for Amazingly Bad Combinations of Clothes goes to:

Buffy Summers! (ya wonder, what could compete with the outfit from the beginning of The Pack, but then you watch Get it Done. And then you remember the 'Jacki O phase' of S3. And then you recall the green leather pants and mint-green sweater from S4. And that's discounting Buffy's bizarre obsession with shawls in the same season... Ad nasuem, ad infinitum...)

[> [> [> Oopsies! 'Twas Random, not Bit, who shuddered! -- Anneth, spectacularly, amazingly beet-red., 20:45:03 05/11/03 Sun

[> [> [> You sneaky thing, you! -- Dead (but not speaking for attribution) Soul, 21:10:49 05/11/03 Sun

I had no idea you were pumping us for this! And to think, I told you how to spell daisies.

Dead (but secretly gratified) Soul

[> [> [> [> To think I decided to cuddle with Hubby instead of going to chat -- lunasea, 09:29:56 05/12/03 Mon

sounds like I missed fun night.

[> [> [> Re: How about that shirt?! -- acesgirl, 11:29:57 05/12/03 Mon

Just chiming in with the most horrific Willow outfit ever (IMO). I can't remember the episode but it was early season 6, when Willow can be seen wearing a shirt (blouse? top?) that looks like the pelt of poor Elmo from Sesame Street. Perhaps this was foreshadowing the future flaying of Warren and we just missed the signs. :)

[> Going for the disturbing -- CW, 19:41:57 05/11/03 Sun

5 From Seeing Red; Tara's blood splatters Willow

4 From the same; The moment its clear Spike doesn't understand Buffy really means no.

3 From Normal Again; Buffy convinced she must destroy her 'delusions.'

2 From Eternity Angel forces Rebecca to drink blood.

1 From Passions Giles goes upstairs to meet Jenny

[> [> Re: Going for the disturbing -- Malandanza, 20:37:42 05/11/03 Sun

Theresa walking off with Angelus in Phases is the scene that most disturbed me -- the whole "Oh, you know Buffy?" relief just before walking off to her death gets me every time.

For AtS, Wesley's slave girl.

[> Angel. Dancing. Need I say more? -- Rook, 20:21:33 05/11/03 Sun

[> [> Yes. Angel. Singing. Now 'nuff's said -- LittleBit, 21:58:16 05/11/03 Sun

[> [> [> And, I must add Angel, 70's hair! -- Rook, 01:07:34 05/12/03 Mon

[> Re: Most disturbing, horrific or violent moments in Buffyverse history -- Sofdog, 21:03:43 05/11/03 Sun

Spike suggesting he might rape Willow in "Lover's Walk" is still in the Top 5 most disturbing moments. I was shocked and spooked by it.

[> Top five most disturbing moments -- KdS, 00:41:43 05/12/03 Mon

In order of transmission:

Killed by Death: anything related to the Kindertodt

The Wish: Xander and Willow killing Cordelia and making Giles watch

Hush: the murder of the first student

Crush: Spike and Dawn in his crypt. Dawn utterly fascinated by his tales of mass slaughter.

Seeing Red: the rape scene

[> Re: Most disturbing, horrific or violent moments in Buffyverse history -- Wizard, 00:59:11 05/12/03 Mon

My shudder-inspiring moments in the Buffyverse? Well, I haven't seen too much of Angel, so I'll give the ones from BtVS. I'm putting them in order of season, as much as possible.

Buffy & the Master, Round 1- Prophecy Girl. This is when he's got her, and they both know it, and he starts taunting her. Not violent, but disturbing, and then he bites her and pushes her into the pool.

Angelus and Jenny- Passion. The whole chase scene was masterfully done, and in true ME fashion, just when we think she's gotten away, we find out that Angelus was just one step ahead of her. And then he kills her. The first major character death on the show- followed by "I never get tired of doing that." And before we catch our bearing, we get the scene of Giles at his house, with the music and the roses... (shudders). RIP, Jenny Calendar.

Any time the Gentlemen are onscreen in Hush. ME outdid themselves when they thought those guys up.

Maggie watching Buffy and Riley in The I in Team. Creepy for its own merits, and even more so when the incest angle pops up.

Adam and the boy, Goodbye Iowa. Not especially creepy or violent in its own right, but it is the first time I can think of on BtVS where a child is explicitly killed (Gingerbread doesn't count, that was a demon).

Joyce and the Star Demon (or whatever it was called) in Listening to Fear. Kristine babbling, we think it's just more crazy talk, and then we see the demon.

Tara and Glory, Tough Love. Just when we think the lovers quarrel is ended... and it happens to the Scooby who was in many ways the most vulnerable.

The Sex Scene in the Bronze and Katrina and the Trio, in Dead Things. THe sex was disturbing, and what almost happened and what later did happen to both Katrina and Buffy were even more disturbing.

"Bored now," in Villains. Do I even have to explain?

Caleb in the winery, with the Scoobies and Potentials, in Dirty Girls. He kicks the asses of the three most physically powerful characters in the whole show, kills two potentials, and maims Xander. Oh, how I hope he gets tortured in many horrible ways!

[> I like this one, lunasea. My choices for BtVS: -- cjl, 07:31:37 05/12/03 Mon

5. Xander, meet Caleb. Ow. OW! OWWWW!!

4. "Misogynists don't need skin," indeed.

3. "Passion"

a) Angelus plays cat and mouse with Jenny through the corridors of Sunnydale High
b) Angelus snaps Jenny's neck
c) Angelus sets up the corpse for Giles to find

Evil? Yes. But I have to admit, the man's an artist.

2. All of Dead Things.

1. All of Seeing Red. (DeKnight, you magnificent bastard, you!)

Runners up:

-- The hyena people eat Principal Flutie
-- VampWillow and VampXander kill Cordelia
-- The queller demon on the ceiling of Joyce's bedroom

[> [> That is almost exactly my list! -- Rob, 10:45:31 05/12/03 Mon

I would also add for a runner-up, the Gnarl noshing on Willow's abdomen. I know some people say this didn't work for them, but for me this scene literally made me squirm in horror and discomfort. The whole idea of her being unable to move and having her skin slowly peeled off really bothered me (although I loved the episode).

Rob

[> Something that's still bugging me -- ponygirl, 08:03:25 05/12/03 Mon

The vampire hanging from the cave wall in Sacrifice. I realize the gang was pretty busy at the time, but couldn't someone have taken a moment to stake that vamp? It's entirely possible that he's still up there, guts hanging out, tongue on the floor, quite undead.

Ick.

[> [> leetle spoiler for AtS' "Sacrifice" above -- ponygirl, 08:07:28 05/12/03 Mon

[> [> Most disturbing moments (spoilers to DG and Peace Out) -- s'kat, 09:21:24 05/12/03 Mon

1. Seeing Red - AR scene, couldn't watch it.

2. Faith attempting to rape/killing Xander in Consequences

3. Xander getting his eye poked out in DG

4. Angel torturing Linwood in Forgiving

5. Cordy and Connor having sex in Apocalyspe Nowish

6. The vampire dissection in Sacrifice

7. Angel dancing and singing - matched only by Angel/Connor duet

8. Dawn's cheerleader tryout in Him

9. Wood feeding Buffy in First Date

10. The Bronze Balcony scene in Dead Things.

Runners up:

1. Drink Me - in Graduation Day II, which was part of the reason Angel realized he had to leave Buffy.

2. Dru's torture of Angel with Holy Water in Whats' My Line, runner up - the sadistic child killer's torture of Angel in In The Dark

3. The worm going into Spike's eye in LMPTM

4. Angelus' torture of the SG in Passion, the goldfish, the black roses, and snapping Jenny's neck and leaving her in Giles' bed.

5.Jasmine's simi rotting face kissing Angel in Peace Out

[> pretty much the whole of DMP -- MsGiles, 09:32:39 05/12/03 Mon

- that yellow! It was just right for the Palace, but it totally set my teeth on edge all through

- gloomy, unenthusiastic sex in the alley

- Buffy not managing to hit anything except her innocent (if odd) co-workers

- monster looking like one of those 'snake on a rope' toys

- and she wanted the job back at the end of it! Buffy's had some lows in S6, but I really felt this one.

[> Re: Most disturbing, horrific or violent moments in Buffyverse history -- Abby, 12:38:26 05/12/03 Mon

Buttons, buttons...A lot of what's been listed I found compelling, dramatic, certainly thought-provoking but I wasn't disturbed or horrified.

Take Dead Things. It's on my list, but for the attempted rape of Katerina and final beating of Spike. The balcony scene? just another dramatic moment to me. But Katerina? they had me there. They glee in the troika faces, the complete denial of responsibilty, the utter objectification.
(BTW, an essay on slayage about BBC censorship has great anaylsis of what they cut from DT and its implications: all of the rape allegation, most of the beating etc)

But the one that will always stick in my mind because it came first was Ted. The sight of the benign middle-aged man slam her across my mind lingers on. I expect to see her beaten, its part of what you sign up to, but that is fantasy violence, that was real to me, and I think the first time we'd seen her assualted by a 'real' man. Yes they opted out later with the revelations, but in that moment I was truely horrified.

And then there was Billy. Wesley stalking the hallways, the look in their eyes. The whole episode turned my stomach, in a good, this-is-incredible-drama way.

So reviewing what I remember, what has stayed with me, I can see that it's when the men attack that disturbs me. Those scenes weren't supernatural- easily written off as demons, they were men who reduced and preyed upon women and attacked in a shocking way that snapped me out of the cosy constructs of fantasy and metaphor. Seeing Red disturbed too, but on a more intellectial level than emotional gut instinct- the grey areas and self-analysis and reframing of my thus-far clear concrete attitudes to rape and context. I had been 'softened' to that scene by spoiled debate: I was fully expecting it and braced to analyse, not emotionally react. But the others? The glimpses of 'normal' men so easily pulled into that kind of behaviour (troika) is something I don't expect to have to deal with on this show: it's too much of reality, such a harsh and terrifying thought for life.
x

[> Re: Most disturbing, horrific or violent moments in Buffyverse history -- Alison, 13:33:15 05/12/03 Mon

My most disturbing list:
- the Invisible girl in S1..I have a thing about people watching me, so this epiode stayed with me. I went home to empty house after watching it, and couldn't fall asleep for hours.
- Buffy's torture methods in WSWB...our first good look at how dark Buffy can really be..
- the end of the Wish..it was so twisted, seeing people who we know as friends killing each other..add that to the fact that the deaths all paralleled emotional pain in the "real" world...it made for a pretty amazing moment.
- Nearly all of Helpless..I love that episode, but it never fails to disturb me.
- Faith killing Lester in GD1..he's so helpless, the kill is, obviously, since we're talking Faith, sexual, and he reminded me of the Mayor.
- WAY..the scene when Riley tells "Buffy" he loves her
- Blood Ties, when Dawn cuts herself
- Dead Things
- the AR in SR
- the last scene in BY
- Buffy's confrontation with Caleb in EP. I have rarely seem her look so helpless and terrified. That, plus the sexual undercurrent to the entire scene..very disturbing.

Interestingly enough, with the exception of the AR(which I have trouble watching), these moments are some of my favorites. I suppose it's because revulsion and horror are some of the strongest emotions art can invoke.

From Ain't it Cool News: WB renews Angel *casting spoiler for season five* -- Rufus, 00:21:30 05/12/03 Mon

Ain't it Cool News

WB Renews ANGEL!!!!!!!!!!!!! Spike Aboard!! Cordelia Not!!
I am - Hercules!!

Monday's Variety reports: "'Angel' - with new cast addition James Marsters - is taking flight for a fifth season on the WB." It's for a full season, according to the trade paper. But founding cast member Charisma Carpenter, who plays Cordelia Chase, "is not expected to return as a series regular."

Look for some of the best writers from "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" to jump back to the WB, as well as quite a few other characters last glimpsed on the streets of Sunnydale.
"Angel" will remain at 9 p.m. Wednesdays, but will get a new lead-in as the hit "Smallville" moves to Wednesdays at 8 p.m.

The WB formally announces its autumn slate Tuesday morning.
I am - Hercules!!

[> And from the show business bible, Variety... -- Rhys, 00:33:09 05/12/03 Mon

"Warner Bros. TV's "ER" will remain open on NBC, while 20th Century Fox's "Angel" -- with new cast addition James Marsters -- is taking flight for a fifth season on the WB...."

[> [> Great news, Rufus & Rhys! -- Dead (but so happy I feel positively lively!) Soul, 00:35:38 05/12/03 Mon

[> [> [> Now if someone would be so kind as to wake Masq up for the good news...;):):):):):) -- Rufus, 00:42:27 05/12/03 Mon

Any volunteers???????

[> [> Re: And from the show business bible, Variety...casting spoiler -- Rufus, 00:36:18 05/12/03 Mon

I'm sorry to see Cordy go but I haven't missed her that much proving the show can go on without her. What I do want to know is if VK/Connor will be back.

[> [> [> From Mr. Vidiot, more good news... -- Rhys, 01:29:22 05/12/03 Mon

http://www.vidiot.com/Angel/

Angel has been Renewed for 2003-2004 Season

Angel Starts Weekend Syndication This Fall

I'm not sure if VK will back in the fall, because he's got two movies coming out. The first is "Falling Off The Verge," a movie about a newly famous young writer (played by Thomas Ian Nicholas) who becomes the victim of a stalker. VK plays a character named Deeter. In the second movie, "Dandelion," which is still in production, he plays the lead character, Mason Mullich. I regret that I don't know what it's about.

[> [> [> [> Re: From Mr. Vidiot, more good news... -- s'kat (who should read the board before posting), 07:06:04 05/12/03 Mon

According to one of the boards - VK is in the first episode of S5 on recurring status, as is Stephanie R. and CC.
So he may be just doing guest shots here and there?

[> [> [> [> [> Which board? -- Masq, 07:40:10 05/12/03 Mon

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Which board? -- s'kat, 08:06:42 05/12/03 Mon

It's driving me crazy - I can't remember. I went back to bigbad.net to look - and wasn't there. Could be Angel's Soul board. The only one's I've jumped to for info - that I knew were safe were the two spike boards - bigbad.net and morethanspike, Bronze Beta, www.slayage.com, and Angel's Soul. It's not at bigbad anymore and not at morethanspike any more - or so it seems. At any rate the board it was on had a link to a website that lists casting spoilers for upcoming seasons and is about 50/50 correct according to the poster. I read this prior to HOME and it's how I ended up getting accidentally spoiled on what happened to Connor. Except this spoiler indicated that it didn't happen to Connor until S5.

Did any one else see this?

At any rate, since it's 50/50 - it means Connor may or may not reappear. Cordy was mentioned Bronze Beta as recurring.
Also DB's interview at LA Con seems to mention possibility of more Connor in S5.

Sorry can't be more exact.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Okay...some better info -- s'kat, 08:28:36 05/12/03 Mon

I did a little looking on bigbad.net (which I don't suggest you go to for several reasons: 1 - huge Spike board (They also love Angel btw. but still...;-)) 2. You need to figure out how to weed around spoilers - I've gotten really good at it. (So was able to miss the Btvs
ones but not Ats.) 3. Most of them hate Connor - for some reason - hence the reason for the spoilers on VK) - anyways:

1. The one I got a month ago was a link to TV Tome - although they've since blanked out the casting spoilers on it. So who knows.

and two from the chat with Kristin (used to be Wanda):

2.park450 asks: Will Vinvent Karthesier come back for a 5th season?

Kristin replies: yes. If there is a 5th season.

3. According to Ats spoilers on bigbad - the first episode of S5 has to do with Connor in some way.

How reliable all this is? Don't know, since I'm trying not to get spoiled on the last two episodes of Btvs, and they are mixing the spoilers. So I had to stop.

[> Re: From Ain't it Cool News: WB renews Angel *casting spoiler for season five* -- Wizard, 01:03:22 05/12/03 Mon

Cordy out, Spike in? Damn, damn and double damn. Not that I don't like Spike, I just really like Cordy. Even if she's not going to be a regular, I hope she's like ASH- appearing sometimes, say maybe, 1/3 of the episodes. But it does make sense- the woman recently had a baby, after all.

[> [> Kind of ironic -- Ray, 01:13:53 05/12/03 Mon

Spike was added to Buffy to replace the Cordlia-type character (insults everyone). And now the same thing is happening on Angel.

[> Ruf - you didn't like Corwyn beating you to it? Posted just below -- A little Birdie, 01:13:54 05/12/03 Mon

[> [> I didn't look......I was too happy....:):):) -- Rufus, 01:17:27 05/12/03 Mon

[> [> [> Yeah, yeah yeah and hooray.........also goodie!!!!!!!!! -- Dandy, 03:12:27 05/12/03 Mon

I am so happy! What a way to wake up!

Thank you, thank you, thank you for posting this!

[> The sun is brighter today, the birds are tweetier, the heavens smile! -- Arethusa, 05:09:59 05/12/03 Mon

In other words, great! It's too bad about CC and I so hope we get more of the-character-formerly-known-as-Connor. But hey, more Spike!

[> [> CC and Connor's status - regular vs. recurring -- s'kat, 07:43:06 05/12/03 Mon

According to information I got on bigbad board and some Bronze Beta - CC and VK aren't out of it.

Cordy will have recurring status, sort of like Stephanie Romanov(Lilah) and Alexas Davislov(Gwen) do now. Connor also was slated to appear in S5 opener in recurring status.
So they aren't completely gone. Just no longer regulars.
All regular means - is you are contracted to appear in some form in every single episode. Example Cordelia this year has appeared in every single episode in some form or another just not always with lines. We often got more Gwen in the episodes she was in or Lilah - and they were recurring. Same with Connor. According to something I read on bigbad a while back - Connor was going to be recurring.

Recurring isn't bad guys - think of the recurring stars:
Kate, Gwen, Darla, Lilah, Lindsey, Drusilla...

sk

[> [> [> "recurring" is great 'cause it's always a surprise how they appear. -- WickedBuffy-already fretting about Connors new season hair, 09:49:53 05/12/03 Mon

[> [> [> Re: CC and Connor's status - regular vs. recurring -- Valheru, 14:41:08 05/12/03 Mon

Or Lorne. Andy Hallett was in...what? All but two or three episodes since the start of season 3? He's appeared in more episodes with more screen time over the past two years than Charisma did back in S2 and 3 of BtVS.

From what I understand, show execs like to give regular status to actors they might be afraid will not stick around, like what Joss did to James Marsters in S4 to keep him from running off to do Chris Carter shows. Actors like Andy Hallett, Kristine Sutherland, Amber Benson, Danny Strong, etc. have shown a willingness to stick around for years so there's no need for the execs to hold them contractually. Of course, it's not all cut-and-dried as that, but it's one reason for the distinction. Which makes what Joss did for Andy Hallett so great: IIRC, he didn't have to make Andy a regular, but he did so anyway because Andy had been so loyal.

IMO, ME makes the best use of recurring characters on television (except for maybe ER's underappreciated cast of nurses). No one can't be brought back if they want to. On a normal television show, who would have thought to bring Julie Benz back all these times? Or Elizabeth Anne Allen? Larry Bagby? Only Joss would think to bring Ethan Erikson back for two minutes in S4. Or using Andy Umberger (sp? the guy who plays D'Hoffryn) in blink-or-you'll-miss-him scenes in "Doppelgangland" and "Something Blue", then use him extensively two years later. And of course, there's Danny Strong, who worked his way up from non-speaking vampire bait to a fan favorite unnofficial Scooby.

If Joss has a story for CC and VK, I have no doubt that he'll get to tell it, no matter what their status is.

[> [> [> [> Completely agree...and let's talk writers! -- s'kat, 15:12:53 05/12/03 Mon

Completely agree. Look at Eliza Dusku - a recurring character in Season 3 and Season 7 Btvs and Season 1 and Season 4 Ats. Not to mention the extended use of recurring characters this year. Heck we've seen more of Andrew than we've seen of Xander.

Then in S4 - we had Amber Benson and Emma Caulfield who weren't regular for a while. No, he made Marsters regular much faster to keep him from running off to Andromeda, Millenium or half a dozen other shows. Wise move. Blucas he also made regular to attempt the same thing - but Blucas ran off to supporting movie stardom along with Seth Green, both who had regular status. So regular status doesn't necessarily protect you.

But enough about the actors, let's talk writers.

Joss Whedon may have finally assembled one of the most interesting writing staffs yet.

We have from Btvs:

1. David Fury: Awakenings, Salvage, LMPTM, Helpless, Peace-Out
2. Drew Goddard - NLM, Selfless, LMPTM, Dirty Girls, CwDP
3. Stephen DeKnight - SR, Dead Things, Inside Out, Deep Down, Awakenings, Apocalypse Nowish
4. Joss Whedon - OMWF, The Body, Spin the Bottle, Waiting in The Wings, Dopplegangerland, Hush

From Ats:

1. Jeff Bell- Habeas Corpes, Soulless, Magic Bullet,
2. Mere Smith - Orpheus, Ground State, Soulless
3. Craft and Fain - Supersymmetry, Shiny Happy People
4. Ed Edlund - Sacrifice

And David Greenwalt/Tim Minear as executive/consulting producers

These writers rock.

Looking very much forward to S5.

[> [> [> [> [> The Angel S5 writing team may be Joss' all-time best. -- cjl, 21:18:09 05/12/03 Mon

There really are NO weak spots.

In all other seasons, you might have had a few doubts about certain people on staff: you had Batali/Des Hotel and Keine/Reinkemeyer in Buffy S1&2 and Tracey Forbes in S4, and RRK and DZG in later seasons--all of whom are good writers, but (IMO) never delivered a knockout script.

All of the projected writers on ANGEL S5--Joss, Bell, DeKnight, Fury, Craft/Fain, Goddard, Mere Smith, and "rookie" Ben Edlund (hard to think of Edlund as a rookie!) have turned in at least one killer episode in their tenure at ME, and most of them have done it THIS YEAR. In other words, they're going to be a "hot" staff going into next season. And with each writer only doing two or three full scripts for the year, they'll be able to devote a lot more time and care to every word.

Sky's the limit.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Definite dream team! -- ponygirl, 07:01:20 05/13/03 Tue

Though I'm going to miss JaneE...

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Completely agree...and let's talk writers! -- Valheru, 22:18:39 05/12/03 Mon

Blucas and Green are sort of the flipside: if you want out, Joss will oblige. Joss could have been a stubborn ass when Seth wanted to leave so abruptly and tried to hold him to the contract, yet he basically said, "Great! Let me help you pack!" Which probably made it so much easier to get Seth back for "NMR" and "Restless". In fact, scheduling permitting, I have no doubt Seth would come back for a guest appearance again if Joss really wanted him. Again, how many other television shows bring old regulars back like ME does with Buffy and Angel? There have only been 5 regulars to depart (other than CC and DB leaving for AtS)--Seth Green, Marc Blucas, Tony Head, Amber Benson (was she ever a true regular, or just had a title credit?), and Glenn Quinn--and three of them came back, all after a significant time away (and Amber wanted to come back, but you know how agents get sometimes...). Joss must be feeding his actors crack or something.

As for writers, as cjl said, there are no weak spots. Even Fury, who I consider one of the weaker BtVS writers, has proven to be a much better writer on the noirish side of the Buffyverse. IMO, Jane's, Marti's, and Doug's writing writings styles don't suit AtS very well (and while we haven't seen Goddard do AtS yet, all his BtVS work has hues of Wesley's gray). So unless there's another Mere Smith waiting out there somewhere, I'd say Joss couldn't do any better.

Anyone want to talk directors? =)

[> My week is already looking brighter... -- Kate, 06:14:16 05/12/03 Mon

Thanks for posting the info!! Whoo-hoo...this is the best news!! I too am sorry to see CC go, but so happy to keep having my weekly dose of Spike. Although, since Team Angle will be short a female, I wonder if this means Lilah gets to stick around more...let's hope so.

And I do wonder about VK/Connor...hmmmm?

[> [> Well, Kate, about Lilah--here's what Stephanie Romanov had to say... -- Rhys, 07:46:08 05/12/03 Mon

http://www.ditb.net/sromanov/i_zap2it_2.html

As for the future -- if there is one -- Romanov says, "I don't know if the show's being picked up or not, but they did say they had some plans for me. That'd be nice. I'm not sure in what form or how, but, of course, they never tell me anything. Even when they called to ask if I'd do the last two episodes, they didn't tell me what was going on or how I was coming back."

"I said, 'Um, remember, you chopped my head off?' They said, 'It's a show about a vampire. Put things in reference.' There's a great line that I love saying in the episode, where she says to Angel, 'Dead, not stupid.'"

***

R

U

M

O

R

S

P

A

C

E

S

***

Also (this is Rhys again), I've heard a persistent rumor that when Angel returns, Lilah will be the one with the visions, since Cordy is only going to be a recurring character and not a regular. The idea, apparently would be that, because of the visions sent by the PTB, Angel and the MoG would be forced to trust Lilah...and yet she wouldn't be in the least trustworthy, because she is still employed by Hell. Also, I suppose she wouldn't be in any danger of having her head explode or dying from neurocerebral dysfunction, as Cordy was before she was demonized. After all, Lilah has already died once, and that didn't stop her for long.

[> [> [> That would definitely keep things interesting... -- Kate, 08:23:45 05/12/03 Mon

Thanks for the quote Rhys. I did read that before, but had forgotten what SR has said. More Lilah is always good...and a possibly untrustworthy one is even better.

[> [> I don't think Amy Acker will be too lonely for female companionship. -- cjl, 07:50:27 05/12/03 Mon

She may be the only female regular, but with Spike on board, that brings the following "femmes fatale" in as possible recurring characters or guest stars:

Charisma Carpenter as Cordelia (she's got to come out of that coma some time)

Alexa Davalos as Gwen Raiden (More electro-girl goodness! More Gwen/Gunn action! More skin-tight outfits!)

Juliet Landau as Drusilla (tons of unresolved issues with both Spike and Angel)

Julie Benz as Darla (flashback, ghost, PTB conduit, whatever--she's going to make her annual appearance, whether she's dead or not)

Mercedes McNab as Harmony (please?)

Alyson Hannigan as Willow (pretty please?)

and last, but definitely not least:

Stephanie Romanov as Lilah. Nothing further needs to be said. (cjl sits back and sighs in blissful contemplation of another season of Lilah badness.)

[> [> [> Your last wish most likely will come true.....don't say I never give you anything...;) -- Rufus, 08:20:32 05/12/03 Mon

[> [> [> Ah! Gwen...how could I forget Gwen? Yes...more Gwen!! And definitely more Gunn & Gwen!! -- Kate, 08:34:59 05/12/03 Mon

[> [> [> What about Dawn? -- WIckedBuffy, 17:16:45 05/12/03 Mon

What if souled Spike felt no remorse for the attempted rape of Buffy? -- Liam, 01:28:18 05/12/03 Mon

I wonder what the reaction of us fans would have been if we had heard souled Spike say to Buffy: 'I didn't try to rape you; that was someone else'. If, from what we heard in 'Lies My Parents Told Me' he felt no remorse for killing Nikki ('I don't give a piss about your mother!') on the same grounds, why should he feel any remorse about what he did to Buffy?

[> I don't think so -- Ray, 03:39:00 05/12/03 Mon

Killing Nikki was part of a battle. He didn't know her or have any feelings for her. He loves Buffy (even without his soul he loved her) and he felt remorse about trying to rape her once he was able to realize what he'd done.

[> [> Words & Action -- Rina, 08:24:56 05/12/03 Mon

What is it about humans that they pay more attention to what is being said, instead of actions? Are we so word-obssessed?

Answer this - if a souled Spike felt no remorse about killing Nikki Wood, why in the hell did he spare her son, Robin's life? So far, no one has been able to answer this.

And by the way, if a souless could feel remorse for almost raping Buffy, why not a souled Spike?

[> [> [> Re: Words & Actions -- Liam, 09:39:27 05/12/03 Mon

You asked why, if Spike felt no remorse about killing Nikki, he spared her son, Robin. There is an obvious answer: Buffy wouldn't like it; and he doesn't want to do anything to upset Buffy, who would have had a serious problem justifying keeping him undusted. Again, it's all about Buffy.

[> [> [> [> Well, that could have been easily dealt with... -- dream, 12:17:33 05/12/03 Mon

Wood had conspired with Giles to kill Spike. There's a computer all loaded up with the trigger song. The walls are (creepily) covered in crosses, indicating some serious planning. Spike shows signs of having been in a fight. And you think Buffy would have blinked if Spike had killed Wood? "Self-defense, love." And there would be no reason not to believe him. Spike may not be, in his own admission, the world's most brilliant man/vamp, but he's certainly smart enough to understand that Buffy would forgive him for killing a man in self-defense. So I think that the fact that Spike didn't kill Wood IS an indication that he feels responsibility.

[> [> [> [> [> But here's the thing, it wouldn't truly be self-defense -- Finn Mac Cool, 21:18:13 05/12/03 Mon

Let's say that some guy with a knife attacks me, but he's really drunk. He's stumbling badly as he tries to rush me and can't seem to get the aim of the knife quite right. I'm easily able to take the knife from him and knock him to the ground, where he just lies, holding his gut and moaning. Would it be all right if I then decided to stab him? Personally, I don't think it would. The self-defense clause, by definition, gives people the right to kill those attempting to hurt them in order to preserve their own lives. Once the attacker is incapacitated, self-defense rules don't apply since the attacker is no longer a threat, and you would be equally safe whether or not you killed him/her. The same applies for Spike and Wood. Spike fought off Wood and easily incapacitated him; Wood was no match for Spike. Once Spike hurt Wood to the extent that it was impossible for Wood to fight him, then Spike no longer had any justification to kill him. Now, if Spike killed Wood during the course of the battle, that would be a different story (though it would still be morally ambigous, in my opinion, since that would lead to a debate over whether Spike was capable of stopping Wood without killing him; even if someone's attacking you, there is still an implicit responsibility to avoid unnecessary bloodshed).

[> [> [> [> [> [> You are correct on the law, Finn. -- Sophist, 21:40:20 05/12/03 Mon

Juries tend to be less scrupulous, however. If they don't like the victim, you're likely to get off.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Also, there were no witnesses -- dream, 06:29:54 05/13/03 Tue

The issue isn't really the law - the issue is whether Spike would have been able to convince Buffy that he was acting in self defense. Considering the circumstances, I think he could.

[> [> [> Re: Words & Action -- Dochawk, 10:56:36 05/12/03 Mon

Why did he spare Wood? 1. because Buffy would want him to? And for Spike that is reason enough. But a second answer lies in what d'Hoffryn says: Go for the pain, not the kill and thats exactly what Spike does with what he says to Wood about Wood's mother. Sorry Spike doesn't get any props for not killing a helpless man.

[> [> [> [> that should be defeated man, not helpless -- Dochawk, 10:59:56 05/12/03 Mon

[> [> [> [> I would've killed Wood under those circumstances -- Doug, 12:13:16 05/12/03 Mon

Some guy is is coming at me trying to kill me, I would feed his corpse to the neighborhood pets whether or not I felt remorse. Simple survival instinct.

Why did I write that?

I'm just pointing out that the highly arbitrary morality that you seem to espouse in this situation is by no means universal. I am a supposedly soul-possesing human being, but, as I stated above, I would not show as much mercy as Spike did. As for myself I think that, while trying to intimidate an enemy into non-hostility is not morally perfect, it is more merciful than killing the enemy. Mercy is something I respect, I just don't have a lot of it myself.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: I would've killed Wood under those circumstances -- caledonia, 14:33:22 05/12/03 Mon

It's about time someone made that point. Spike was pretty restrained for a guy who had been taken somewhere under false pretenses by a man whose life he'd saved several times, then attacked by that same man.
I know I wouldn't have been all puppies and moonbeams after that. Survival instinct, definitely.

[> [> [> [> Re: Words & Action -- leslie, 15:18:20 05/12/03 Mon

"Go for the pain, not the kill and thats exactly what Spike does with what he says to Wood about Wood's mother. Sorry Spike doesn't get any props for not killing a helpless man."

Seems to me the statement that "my mom loved me more than yours did" is going for the pain, but going for Wood's neck and then not killing him? To recap the theme of the season, "it's about power." I don't think it's mercy, and it isn't self-restraint, either: it's control. Wood thought he had it, but his eagerness to get Spike into this situation shows that he's really just giving in to his own agenda; Spike shows him that he is the one with control, the one who Wood thinks he can turn into a mindless animal by activating the trigger. It also makes a very pointed statement about what has changed in Spike since his attempted rape of Buffy, since that was a situation where he thought he was in control at the beginning of the scene, lost it, and by the end it was clear that Buffy, even with a sore back, was the one with the power in the relationship. In a way, it's also a recapitulation in another key of the lesson that Xander learns in The Zeppo.

[> [> [> [> [> I don't get the belief that Spike not killing Wood is so admirable -- KdS, 15:55:14 05/12/03 Mon

I know comparing Spike and Angel is a no-no, but this comparison isn't saying one is better than the other, but that Angel got the slap-down that Spike deserved.

From Tomorrow:

Angel: "I found Holtz."
Cordy: "And?"
Angel: "I didn't kill him."
Cordy: "Maybe you're growing as a person. What did you do?"

In her last marvellous burst of justified sarcasm before her Ascension, Cordelia reminds Angel of something he usually knows but forgot this time, that not killing someone when you might potentially have got off on provocation isn't a thing to really be proud of. Not killing someone when you want to isn't a sign of growth as a human being, it's that you've finally reached that level of morality that the average human adult starts from - the zero point on the axis of morality.

[> [> [> [> [> [> But then Again... -- Doug, 16:46:56 05/12/03 Mon

...Angel tried to murder Wesley when Wesley was lying helpless and mute in a hospital bed. Angel's capacity for mercy on operates in fits and starts.

[> [> [> [> [> Agree. Well said. -- sk, 17:27:01 05/12/03 Mon

[> There's no reason why he should -- Sophist, 10:53:22 05/12/03 Mon

At least, there isn't if you adopt my view of the soul canon: that the souled vamp is a different moral entity than the unsouled vamp.

In this view, the real horror of LMPTM is that Wood attempted to murder an innocent. Spike's statement to Wood was cruel but nothing more.

Even without this view, you are making assumptions about Spike's meaning and intent that I don't believe are justified. WIthout those assumptions, your hypothetical about Spike and Buffy wouldn't make any sense. That's all I'm going to say on this point, since it's been covered so thoroughly and recently.

[> [> Completely agree. Well said. -- s'kat, 17:49:47 05/12/03 Mon

Angel renewed: Looks like we get one more year together ;) -- Vash the Stampede, 04:37:14 05/12/03 Mon

[> True - it's a headline at variety.com (plus possible well-known casting spoiler) -- Darby, 05:29:55 05/12/03 Mon

Any subscribers out there care to read and give details?

- Although it should show up on the genre websites pretty fast...

[> [> Ooops - never mind. Um, B/A are the TV Guide cover story this week! -- Darby, resolving to read further before posting, 05:32:59 05/12/03 Mon

[> Yep. It's official - cites inside and info on Cordy -- s'kat, 06:59:03 05/12/03 Mon

I checked www.slayage.com and the first article up is Angel renewed. It's also cited at AICN. And on the variety web site. As well as at Bronze Beta and other boards.

Here's the cites:

http://comingsoon.net/cgi-bin/archive/fullnews.cgi?newsid1052717444,33928,

http://www.variety.com/index.asp?layout=upsell_article&articleID=VR1117886028&categoryID=14&cs=1

Warning - there are casting spoilers. But nothing we haven't already discussed on the board.

Also according to Hercules over at AICN, Charisma Chase has only signed on for recurring.

". But founding cast member Charisma Carpenter, who plays Cordelia Chase, "is not expected to return as a series regular."
Look for some of the best writers from "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" to jump back to the WB, as well as quite a few other characters last glimpsed on the streets of Sunnydale.
"Angel" will remain at 9 p.m. Wednesdays, but will get a new lead-in as the hit "Smallville" moves to Wednesdays at 8 p.m. "

It's a full season with an option for a 6th season possible.

According to other boards - the news on Cordy is that CC wanted only recurring status and they gave it to her, she'll be present but not a regular or key member any more.

Also the writers slated to come over from Btvs are Drew Goddard and David Fury and Joss Whedon. Joss is also going to direct and write several episodes of Angel next season.

Tim Minear is officially just consulting producer.

See Bronze Beta VIP archives for Tim Minear.

Don't know about anyone else - but this news made my morning! I'm doing a happy dance! Angel renewed! Yes!!

[> [> The LA Times says only that WB is "expected" to renew Angel. -- Sophist, 07:53:38 05/12/03 Mon

[> [> Oh pain oh joy oh pain oh joy oh pain oh joy oh pain oh joy -- KdS, 09:45:35 05/12/03 Mon

Joy at the fact that Angel will be renewed, and that VK, SR, and CC all seem to be in it, even if not all eps.

Pain at the fact that Spike is coming on and Joss Whedon is writing. I don't hate Spike the character (despite Lies - I blame Goddard and Fury for that) but I've been annoyed by the way he's been played up in S7 to the point of freezing out other core characters. I don't want to see Wes or Gunn or Fred or Lilah sidelined by bleach boy's tortured soul. Similarly, I love Whedon's work on Buffy, but his work on AtS, except for Sanctuary has never been up to that standard.

[> [> [> Sigh. (the spoiler I left out of my post) -- s'kat, 10:14:49 05/12/03 Mon

Sigh. Extended sigh. Yes, I'm Angel/Spike shipper and proud of it. I have restrained from going on about the character that I despise most on Ats and won't here. Suffice it to say, I'm pleased with the news. (And no, it wasn't Connor - I liked Connor.) We all have our favorites and we all have one's we don't care for.

I wouldn't worry so much about Spike taking over Angel for numerous reasons. The only reason we've seen more of Spike on Btvs this season is:

He's Buffy's romantic interest and the fatal. Same thing with Cordy on Angel. Although I think they did a far better job of it on Btvs.

Unless you really think Spike is going to be Angel's romantic interest? I wouldn't worry.

Also Spike's story took off in S5 - 7. He took over the Angel slot on the show while Anya took over Cordy's. I'm willing to bet money if there hadn't been an Angel spinoff
we'd be getting Angel.

Ats - whole different set up. First off - it's no longer going to be a family turgid supernatural soap opera, it's going to be a work-place supernatural drama. Focusing on stand-alone, more episodic structure. This means each and every character will get to shine and they are moving towards a more ensemble like style a ka Firefly.

Btvs - is all about Buffy, so we focused on Spike as part of that journey.

Ats - is pretty much still all about Angel, Spike will give us more background on Angel, which they had to skim over.
And on Spike. I'm jumping for joy. I could get Fanged Four flashbacks. Plus we'll see more Lilah. More Fred. More Gunn, More Lorne. With possible Guest Shots by ASH, Hannigan, Harmony, Dru...oh... the possibilities. See no pain? What pain?

On top of this ratings should go up, because a lot of viewers on other boards have decided to start watching Ats now that Marsters is joining the cast. Btvs has a bigger fan base than Ats.

(Okay, last time I'm going to do the defend my joy at JM on Ats. Next time I may start doing a little of my own snarking. Do you guys pay attention to the quotes at the top of the board? Or just ignore them??)

Us Angel/Spike shippers are truly a lonely crew.

SK

[> [> [> [> Lol. Feeling the joy. -- Arethusa, 11:30:48 05/12/03 Mon

The possibility of more Fanged Four is wonderful. And I'm really eager to see how they contrast Spike's soulfullness with Angel's. Two different men, two different paths. Plus, Angel. Balloon. Spike. Sharp pin.

Bring it on.

[> [> [> [> Well, I'm really looking forward to -- dms, 12:42:41 05/12/03 Mon

seeing Marsters on AtS. I'm not ready to give up my weekly Spike fix. I just hope that ME doesn't have Spike and Angel get into a pissing contest over Buffy. These guys have been around for hundreds of years. Please let them move on from the slayer!

[> [> [> [> [> any news on alyson hanigan ? -- 110v3w1110w, 13:24:58 05/12/03 Mon

any news on if she will move to angel ? i really hope she will or i will miss willow so badly

[> [> [> [> [> [> Alyson Hannigan, according to TV Guide, -- Rhys, 14:56:36 05/12/03 Mon

"...will be promoting "American Wedding" (a second sequel to "American Pie") and planning her own wedding to Alexis Denisof (Angel's Wesley)."

I have read a number of interviews with her that say she will probably be guest-starring on "Angel" for two or three episodes, but that nothing has been confirmed or signed yet.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: any news on alyson hanigan ? -- s'kat, 14:57:10 05/12/03 Mon

According to the TV Guide article I read at the news-stand this morning - Hannigan will do guest shots but doesn't want to move full time, b/c she doesn't want to take their thunder nor sees how it will work. But! She said she'd do guest shots.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Well, I'm really looking forward to -- s'kat, 13:53:01 05/12/03 Mon

Wouldn't worry about it. From what I've heard that will be somewhat resolved in Btvs this year.

[> [> [> [> A possible Angel/Spike encounter at the start of S5 (AtS S5 spec) -- cjl, 13:31:01 05/12/03 Mon

The idea of Spike and Angel together in Angel S5 tickles me no end. Given their mutual history and shared interests (*coughBuffyDruSoulcough*), imagine what Joss and ME can do with these guys! The first meeting alone should be a scream...

"TWO VAMPIRES WALK INTO A BAR...."

[Scene: Los Angeles, 4:00 a.m. Interior, seedy bar. It's been trashed beyond all possibility of repair. "(Theme from) A Summer Place" is playing on the juke box. Bartender is cowering in a corner. There's one customer remaining, sitting on a barstool at the far end, chugging a bottle of vodka. We don't see him in the dim light, but anybody with even a hint of common sense knows who it is. From Mystery Customer's POV: Front door opens, and ANGEL enters.]

FAMILIAR VOICE w/BRITISH ACCENT: What do YOU want?
ANGEL: I'm your designated driver.

[Camera tracks Angel as he slowly walks along the length of the bar.]

FVw/BA: Sod off.
ANGEL: Sorry, can't do that. You're way past curfew, and your mother is just worried sick. [Looks around] Have we been redecorating again?
FVw/BA: Trust me, it's an improvement.

[Angel approaches Mystery Customer. Close-up: we finally get a little bit of passing moonlight on the man's face. Yes, it's Spike.]

ANGEL: Master of the low profile. As usual. You're lucky I've got some pull in this town.
SPIKE (sloshed, but amused by that last line): Ooooh! We've got "pull" around here, do we? Do you validate parking tickets?
ANGEL: Do you see any cops around here, Spike? Do you see any commando types coming down on your ass? Do you think they're hanging back out of the goodness of their hearts?
SPIKE: Don't need your bloody help.
ANGEL: Right. And you came to my town and put on this road company version of "The Lost Weekend" because you're so damn happy.
SPIKE: What the hell would you know about it...
ANGEL: Leaving town because you think it's best for both of you. Looking ahead at the next thousand years or so and realizing you have absolutely no freakin' idea what you're going to do with yourself.

[Long moment of silence. They stare at each other, and there's the start of a connection.]

SPIKE (turns away): All right, so you do know something about it.
ANGEL (puts a hand on Spike's shoulder): Time to go. I've got a place for you on Ventura Boulevard--
SPIKE (violently slaps the hand away): I said I don't need your help! You're enjoying this, aren't you? Always got to be the big man of the operation, always running the show! Telling me and Dru what to do, and where we can go, and smackin' us down when we get out of line! I'm sick of you. I'm sick of staring at your stupid face with your smug little grin and that rock sculpture you call a hairdo. Why don't you just bugger off?! I'm not your boy, y'hear me?! Never was and never will be! (Starts sobbing) Not your boy...
ANGEL: OK. You're not.
SPIKE (regaining control): Damn right I'm not.

[Long pause.]

ANGEL: Leeds vs. Manchester United.
SPIKE: What?
ANGEL: At the apartment. I've got Leeds vs. Manchester United on ESPN2. Match is starting in...(looks at watch) twenty minutes.
SPIKE: Oh. You know, you could have said something before. [Hops off the barstool; he's still a bit wobbly.]
ANGEL: You gonna make it?
SPIKE: Oh shut up.

[They leave together.]

[> [> [> [> [> Re: A possible Angel/Spike encounter at the start of S5 (AtS S5 spec) -- Wizard, 15:07:14 05/12/03 Mon

*Snerk*

That would be funny- we would have to have flashbacks to see the violent introduction of Spike to Angel's town, of course, but hey- seeing two immortal enemies bonding over football would rock. Picture it- Manchester wins, Angel and Spike are hugging as they jump for joy, and then remember they hate each other... and not caring because Manchester won... oh yeah.

But Angel's got an apartment? Unless it's with Phantom Dennis, I hope he doesn't. I like the Hyperion- A.I.'s put too much into that lovely old hotel for it to just disappear! I mean, even old Sunnydale High got an explosive send off!

[> [> [> [> [> Now that's comedy!! lol -- Kate <still chuckling quietly to herself>, 15:23:40 05/12/03 Mon

[> [> [> [> [> *lol* -- deeva, 15:37:07 05/12/03 Mon

[> [> [> [> No pain here! -- Dariel, 20:16:38 05/12/03 Mon

Ats - is pretty much still all about Angel, Spike will give us more background on Angel, which they had to skim over. And on Spike. I'm jumping for joy. I could get Fanged Four flashbacks. Plus we'll see more Lilah. More Fred. More Gunn, More Lorne. With possible Guest Shots by ASH, Hannigan, Harmony, Dru...oh... the possibilities. See no pain? What pain?

Agree with all you've said, including, I believe, on your least favorite character. I'm glad I finally got into AtS, as well as Angel the character. I would have watched "Survivor" if JM showed up, but am very glad I'll be watching him on a show I like.

Although I wouldn't have said so in the past, I also think DB's acting has improved so much that Angel fans needn't worry about JM stealing the show (which I'm sure they are). DB can hold his own--they should play off of each other very well.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: No pain here! -- s'kat, 20:48:14 05/12/03 Mon

I also think DB's acting has improved so much that Angel fans needn't worry about JM stealing the show (which I'm sure they are). DB can hold his own--they should play off of each other very well.

Exactly. Boreanze has said in interviews that he's really looking forward to toying with Spike. The two actors have loads of chemistry and play off one another very well.
Some of my favorite Angel moments on Btvs oddly enough are ones with Spike: School Hard with Xander's neck, What's My Line with Drusilla and with Willie in the tunnels, Surprise and Innocence, BBB and the heart scene, And the scene where he and Spike get Dru to get info out of Giles in Becoming.

Looking forward to this takes the chaff off the pain of Btvs ending and the finale which I've resigned myself to being incredibly painful. Preparing myself for the worst ahead of time, so I won't be disappointed.

[> It's going to be weird watching Angel without Buffy each week though ;) -- Vash the Stampede, 09:48:44 05/12/03 Mon

[> [> Agreed -- deeva, 15:23:07 05/12/03 Mon

I like my Buffy with a side of Angel. Now it's just Angel as the main event. Nothing wrong with that, it's just that Buffy is my first pick then it's Angel. *sigh* Is it possible to go through withdrawal without actually having quit just yet?

A couple of Season Six notes (British people especially, please read!) -- Tchaikovsky, 09:11:58 05/12/03 Mon

I haven't been quite as profligate as Marie below, but I have dashed out this morning to buy the Season Six Buffy DVD. This means two things:

1) I'm going to do a 'Once More, With Feeling' transcription for Joss' commentary. As you may realise, this is a long and arduous job, so to make sure it doesn't get immediately booted by 7.21 discussion, I'm going to post it early on Thursday. So no-one else please do one without warning me, because that would be a lot of extra unnecessary work!

2) I now have some almost totally redundant Season Six Buffy tapes. I'd really like to send them on to anyone who doesn't have a copy. It may be a bit of a long shot at this board where everybody is fanatic, but if anyone would like the whole of Season Six on video tape for only about £7, they are welcome to it. Seems the least I can do for having all the benefits of this marvellous board. The only restriction is that you're going to have to be British, as otherwise postage will sky rocket. I'll have to do boring things like find boxes and give addresses and stuff. Either reply here or e-mail me, and I'll go on a first-come-first-served thingy, I think.

Thanks

TCH

[> tapes Yes Please if not yet gone -- MsGiles, 09:18:49 05/12/03 Mon

[> [> Yup- you're first! You will shortly have mail! -- Tchaikovsky, 09:22:25 05/12/03 Mon

[> [> [> Ooh great! -- MsGiles, 12:11:49 05/12/03 Mon

[> DVD commentary?? -- s'kat, 09:54:47 05/12/03 Mon

TCH - thank you!! Also, if possible could you tell us which other episodes have commentary in the S6 DVD editions?

I think but am not sure that they are only doing them for
Bargaining, OMWF, Smashed, DMP, NORMAL AGAIN, and Grave.
Am I right?

Thanks, SK

[> [> Season 6 extras -- DVD nut, 10:40:01 05/12/03 Mon

These are the extras listed:

Special Features:

* Interactive menu
* Scene access
Disc One:

* Audio commentary for 'Bargaining' epsiode from Marti Noxon and David Fury
Disc Two:

* Audio commentary for 'Once More With Feeling' episode from Joss Whedon
* Karaoke sing-a-longs: I've Got a Theory/Bunnies/We're Together, I'll Never Tell, Walk Through The Fire
* 'Behind The Scenes' featurette for 'Once More With Feeling' episode
* Easter Egg (hidden feature)
Disc Three:

* Audio commentary for 'Smashed' episode from Drew Z. Greenberg
* Academy of TV Arts and Sciences panel discussion
* 8 trailers
Disc Four:

* 'Buffy Goes To Work': a behind the scenes featurette
* Easter Egg (DVD-Rom content hidden feature)
Disc Five:

* Audio commentary for 'Hell's Bells' episode from David Solomon and Rebecca Rand Kirshner
* Audio commentary for 'Normal Again' episode

[> [> [> That's almost right -- Tchaikovsky, 12:52:39 05/12/03 Mon

What's above is nearly there, but it misses out a couple fo things.

There are 7 (a record!) commentaries on the following episodes:
Bargaining 1 and 2
Once More, With Feeling
Smashed
Hell's Bells
Normal Again
Grave (not on above summary)

Also on the sixth disc, (with I think are the only things DVD fnut left out), is the usual overview of the Season, (which I have watched, and is fascinating), and some kind of documentary on the genesis of Buffy, which I imagine may haev run in the US, but I've never seen before, which repeated a lot of stuff I knew, but unusually managed to get an interview with SMG, (she's never really on the DVD features, presumably rushed off her feet, and really tired after all the work she does each Season).

Hope that helps

TCH

[> [> [> [> Perfect choices for eps to do commentary on, too, IMO. -- Rob, 13:33:19 05/12/03 Mon

Bargaining 1 and 2--So much to discuss there, at the start of such a new controversial season

Once More, With Feeling--possibly the most brilliant ep of Buffy ever, so that's required

Smashed--started a huge arc in the Buffyverse and even further was not a universally loved ep, which is important I think, because commentary can be very enlightening on an ep like this

Hell's Bells--another landmark, turning point, IMPORTANT ep

Normal Again--another very controversial one that I for one am extremely interested in hearing commentary on, in both the direction and the writing angles.

Grave--a lot to discuss here too, about wrapping up what was perhaps the most polarizing season the show ever had, what they thought was successful, what wasn't, etc.

And here in the US, we'll probably have to wait another year for those!!

Rob

[> [> [> [> [> Yes, and I'm looking forward to meeting some new people -- Tchaikovsky, 13:43:36 05/12/03 Mon

OK, that's over-the-top, but hey, I'm a lonely little composer. In any case, along with David Fury, Marti Noxon and Joss Whedon for the relevant episodes, there are commentaries by Rebecca Rand Kirshner, Drew Z Greenberg and Diego Gutierrez, none of whom have done one before, so it will be interesting to see how they come across.

Of the commentaries I've listened to of the previous five Seasons, Joss' are always the best, as you'd expect. But he always comes across as rather lonely and self-conscious talking about what he's done. Doug Petrie and Jane Espenson's are my next favourites- they really give the feeling that they know the show inside out and still love it. Marti Noxon is really funny- she comes across as a bit silly, and certainly very flighty, and then will suddenly pop up with an incredibly interesting perspective on something. David Greenwalt only did 'Reptile Boy', so I'll excuse him. Which just leaves David Fury, whose commentaries do nothing for my fairly low respect of him. But to each his own.

TCH

[> [> [> [> [> [> I'd like to see commentary by the performers -- Vickie, 13:52:33 05/12/03 Mon

I love these done by the writers, directors, producers. I just wish that they'd *ALSO* have one (or more?) by some of the performers.

I just watched the 2nd season B5 DVDs, where there is a threesome commentary by performers Bruce Boxleitner, Claudia Christian, and Jerry Doyle that is just a hoot. Such a very different perspective from the writer/director/producer. Imagine getting AH/AB/JM voiceover on SR???

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> That would indeed be fascinating -- Tchaikovsky, 14:02:25 05/12/03 Mon

I'm sure some of the more enthusiastic performers would do one, like James Marsters and Michelle Trachtenberg. But I suspect that they won't buck the trend now as there's only one more seasonto come out. Although some of the American releases have been slightly different to the British ones, including I think a Seth Green commentary for 'Wild At Heart'? Could be wrong.

TCH

[> [> [> [> [> [> I agree... -- Rob, 18:16:12 05/12/03 Mon

"Of the commentaries I've listened to of the previous five Seasons, Joss' are always the best, as you'd expect. But he always comes across as rather lonely and self-conscious talking about what he's done."

Interesting way of describing his commentaries, and very perceptive too, I think. Overall, they are the most in-depth, all-encompassing commentaries, I think, and he also gets a bit deeper in the meat of the episode, the metaphors, as well as the production aspects, than most of the other commentators do. He also as the creator seems separate from the others, and seems to take everything about the creative process very personally.

"Doug Petrie and Jane Espenson's are my next favourites- they really give the feeling that they know the show inside out and still love it."

I agree. I love hearing those two, although I don't think they quite get as deep into the show as Joss does.

"Marti Noxon is really funny- she comes across as a bit silly, and certainly very flighty, and then will suddenly pop up with an incredibly interesting perspective on something."

I completely fell in love with Marti from her commentaries. Many of those who peg her as this evil, evil person who destroyed the show, would be surprised, I think at what a sweet, funny woman she comes across in the commentaries. She's playful and seems to be the closest to Joss as far as sense of humor and emotion goes. She completely groks him, I think.

"David Greenwalt only did 'Reptile Boy', so I'll excuse him. Which just leaves David Fury, whose commentaries do nothing for my fairly low respect of him. But to each his own."

I agree also. Greenwalt's commentary for RB (hey those are my initials!) wasn't particularly enlightening. I kind of felt like he was just recapping plot points, which we could have just watched the episode to see. And David Fury annoys the crud out of me! But I predict that your appreciation of him will grow later in AtS S4. I thoroughly enjoyed "Release," with some reservations (he got one particular character down perfectly, another one completely wrong)...and adored "Peace Out" more than I could possibly believe. In fact, gulp!, as I said, it might be my fave Angel ep ever. Maybe that's one of the signs of the apocalypse! Doesn't bode well for Buffy, does it? ;o) So anyway, he might surprise you. But in interviews and commenataries, I still am very turned off by him.

Rob

[> [> [> [> Thank you!! -- s'kat, 13:44:38 05/12/03 Mon

I really need to get a DVD player one of these days.
So I'm checking out which Btvs seasons are worth it -- since I have every Btvs episode on VHS right now.
Fanatical? Me? Naw. So the commentaries are very important.

LOL!

Bummed they didn't do commentaries for Dead Things or Seeing Red - those cowards!!

[> [> [> [> [> Fudging issues -- Tchaikovsky, 13:54:16 05/12/03 Mon

I suspect the reason why those two weren't done was because Steven DeKnight didn't want to or didn't have time to do a commentary. However, I was disappointed by the lack of discussion of the attempted rape or the furore over the Dead Lesbian cliche in the Season Six Overview. They concentrated hard, and interestingly on some aspects of the Season, like Dawn's problems (partly through a very interesting interview with Michelle Trachtenberg) and the Xander/Anya relationship, nut they skirted round two of the real biggies.

For me shadowkat, this is the best selection of extras on any of hte DVD's. More commentaries, a full hour of a discussion that took place last summer, a complete documentary, and the usual little featurettes. I would highly recommend it once you do take the plunge and buy that DVD player!

TCH

[> [> [> [> [> [> BTW What are the Eggs? -- Dochawk, 14:06:51 05/12/03 Mon

Since shipping from Britain takes so long it will be anotehr week or so until I get them. And there are supposed to be at least two eggs (are they eggs when they tell you about them?). What are they?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Well... -- Tchaikovsky, 14:26:56 05/12/03 Mon

According to the BBC website, one of them is a newswrap of a signing after Once More, With Feeling, and the other is 'DVD ROM' content. Does anyone want to explain to me how I access them? I'd be most obliged, although actually the more interesting things are clearly linked, but I'm a hopeless completist. I have to watch everything.

TCH

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Well... -- Dochawk, 14:44:53 05/12/03 Mon

When on a computer you move your mouse across the screen looking for the little hand, not sure how you do it on a DVD player though.

And now that I think about it, there was a crew out at Tower records interviewing Buffy fans for inclusion on the Season 6 DVD at a signing for OmWF with Joss, Michelle and Amber. Maybe thats it??

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Well... -- LittleBit, 21:17:50 05/12/03 Mon

You keep moving the cursor around until it goes somewhere you don't expect and then hit enter.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Thanks -- Tchaikovsky, 02:03:39 05/13/03 Tue

[> [> [> Re: Season 6 extras -- DVD Nut, 13:29:31 05/12/03 Mon

Thanks! The list I cut an pasted didn't have Disc Six. Here's another list from another site.

I can't wait for my DVDs from Amazon.com some time this week.

Special Features
Widescreen 16:9 Enhanced
Audio Commentaries for Bargaining, Once More With Feeling and Smashed
Karaoke Sing-A-Longs
Once More With Feeling Featurette
Academy Of Television Arts & Sciences Panel Discussion
Trailers
Audio Commentary for Hells Bells, Normal Again and
?? Disc Six items
Audio Commentary for Grave
Buffy Goes To Work Featurette
Season 6 Overview Featurette
Life Is The Big Bad Featurette
A & E TVography Featurette
Out Takes

[> [> [> [> A& E Tvography will be on this Wed at 8pm EST time -- s'kat, 20:59:32 05/12/03 Mon

In case you don't get the DVD's - the A&E Tvography hour long session on Btvs will be on A&E this Wed night at 8pm EST time.

2 to go...how many here plan to seek therapy after the last eposide airs??? -- fleur-de-lis, 12:29:46 05/12/03 Mon

Seriously y'all....whatever will we do Tuesday nights? Will local therapists suddenly see a spike in new patients after 7:22? I've been known to rearrange my curriculum in order to be home from classes by 9 on Tuesdays! 7 years with Buffy..ending...maybe the spirit of the First Slayer will miraculously appear and it'll turn out to all be a hideous nightmare...

[> Definitely! And a thank you to all! -- dream, 12:50:36 05/12/03 Mon

I'm amazed at how emotional I am about the idea of Buffy being over. I wouldn't have thought a few years ago that I could get so wrapped up in a television show. I would have been so very wrong.

I'm also surprised at how sad I am about what will be for me, at least, the end of this board. Not being an Angel watcher, I'll be bowing out after the discussions of the finale die down. I want to thank all of you for adding so much to my enjoyment of this show. I've learned from all of you and become quite fond of many of you - which to me feels very strange. The whole cyber-community thing is new for me. I'm not sure of the protocol. But if anyone wants to contact me, I've added my address above.

Thanks especially to ponygirl, shadowkat, Wisewoman, Rahael, Sophist, OnM, cjl, Caroline and Arethusa. I've looked for your posts and enjoyed them every time. (I know there are more people I would like to mention specifically, particularly those who used to post a lot, but now mostly lurk, but I have a notoriously bad memory. Forgive my oversights.)

[> [> Re: Definitely! And a thank you to all! -- ponygirl, 13:41:23 05/12/03 Mon

Oh dream! Don't say that. There's got to be a few years worth of analysis left in BtVS yet! I'd be sad to think you wouldn't be joining in. It is weird though, this ending. On the one hand I feel like I do need to just go away and think about all that's been put into my brain by the show and this board (my Buffy monastic retreat!), on the other... I don't want anything to end or change or go away! Waah! I think I'm going to be getting very emotional in the next few days.

I've very much enjoyed your posts too. Thank you for all of the wonderful writing.

[> [> Ditto dream. Very well said -- Sophist, 13:45:58 05/12/03 Mon

And I'll have many more thankyous, I'm sure, when the time comes. One is certainly to you.

[> [> Continuing in the same vein... -- Alison, 14:01:31 05/12/03 Mon

I want to thank everyone on the board for what you've given me this year...this is my first year back in the American school system and that plus the other less pleasant aspects of this year have made for a difficult time. The interesting discussion and friendliness I've found here have really helped. I maybe a newbie, and far less educated and articulate than most of the posters here, but I've received so much support . I look to this site for mental stimulation, and all of you have become my teachers in away..so, cheesy as all this is sounding, I just want to say how much this board and the posters here have meant to me. You're enhanced my apprication of Buffy and Angel, and helped make this hellish year a little less awful. Thanks, and here's hoping we continue discussion long after the show ends.

[> [> Lalalalalalalalalalalaaaaaaaaaa -- Caroline (hands over ears, eyes closed), 14:08:50 05/12/03 Mon

I don't think I'll go into mourning until September when Buffy doesn't come back in the fall. I'm in denial right now and plan to stay that way. Whenever someone mentions the end of the show I just put my hands over my ears, close my eyes and sing lalalalalalalalalalala. (Imagine me doing that now). So everyone, please feel free to join me on my cruise up daNile.

So - no thank yous, no farewells, just lots of posting and chat.

Caroline (vainly trying to stave off the inevitable).

[> [> [> Signing up for that Egyptian cruise -- Scroll, 00:12:55 05/13/03 Tue

I'm with you, Caroline. I figure we're more than used to a long summer of no Buffy and only vague rumours. This summer will be no different (says I) and I'm going to pretend as much until the last possible moment. OTOH, I'm more an Angel fan than a Buffy fan these days, so I'm not going to be completely heartbroken. I'll still have Angel, Wesley, Connor, etc. to keep me company!

[> [> try angel, though -- mamcu the semi-converted, 14:18:55 05/12/03 Mon

Realizing that I would also be in the same situation, I did try Angel. It's not Buffy, and I know the biggest thing is our bonding to her and the Scoobies, but it's still an interesing show. I liked it a lot more after I watched for 5 or 6 times and got into the whole story--but still miss not being able to catch up with re-runs. Hope FX will add it soon.

But I too will sadly miss this group--I know most of us won't stay around after Buffy is gone, and it's definitely the best on-line experience I've had. It will be a great loss. And that shows what BtVS is--the real Watchers, us.

[> [> Re: Definitely! And a thank you to all! -- shadowkat, 14:47:26 05/12/03 Mon

I've enjoyed your posts as well and much like you am surprised by how attached I've become to a TV show and through it an internet posting board. Btvs has oddly enough managed to change my life - because it has introduced me to the people on this board - the ones I've had the pleasure to meet in person, start email correspondences with, and
correspond with on the board. People say TV will rot your mind - but Btvs and this board enriched mine and got me to try new things with my writing I didn't know I could do until now. It also taught me things about philosophy, mythology, culture, and psychology that never occurred to me.

I won't be leaving the board once Btvs is over, because I have become a converted Angel fan. These past two years of Angel have made Angel The Series my favorite tv show and a worthy successor to Btvs. More than worthy. In some ways in my humble opinion, Ats has surpassed Btvs in its philosophical scope. But again I realize this is a matter of opinion so won't pressure others into watching it.

At any rate...as many of you already know, being on this board and interacting with all of you got me through some very tough patches in 2002 - 2003 and for that I thank you.
I also thank you for some of the people I've met. I won't name them -- since the list would be far too long and I fear I'd leave a few out. But you know who you are.
Thanks.

And I'm not going anywhere...yet. ;-) sk

PS: I also enjoyed your posts dream and will miss seeing you on the board. Have included my email address, in case you wish to contact me or are ever in NYC.

(Hope this posts, anyone else having troubles with Voy today? It's eaten ten of my posts...I'm about ready to give up.)

[> [> [> Voynak is feeling threatened -- cougar, 15:23:35 05/12/03 Mon

If everyone bails, who's thoughts will Voy contain? If we are our thoughts, and Voy eats our thoughts...

Oh never mind, its all too horrid

[> [> [> Re: Definitely! And a thank you to all! -- jane, 16:31:28 05/12/03 Mon

Hi,first time poster here. I have been lurking on this board for the past year, and have been amazed by the depth and perception of the people here. You have inspired me to read and study areas of philosophy I have not looked at for a long time. The conversations here have definitely enhanced my enjoyment of both Buffy and Angel. Thank you all. I hope to get a chance to meet some of you in June when you come to Vancouver. Going back to lurking now!

[> [> Note to everyone: please don't leave, even if you don't watch Angel -- Masquerade, 17:10:52 05/12/03 Mon

There will be plenty of "Buffy" discussion on this board, starting in the summer and continuing until we all die of old age.

This summer, we will be featuring a different episode of BtVS every week as the "official" episode to talk about, and having multiple-thread in-depth discussions about it as we always do, but with the great advantage of 7 seasons of hind-sight.

Look for the first ep discussion "Welcome to the Hellmouth" on June 9th.

* Plus, discussions of any BtVS topic you want to bring up regardles of episode, character, or theme are always welcome.

* There will no doubt be many fantastic essays written by our posters over the course of the summer and into the Fall.

* Rob's Annotation threads will still be going strong this summer (I think!). If not, then in the Fall for sure. Rob?

* If there is another spin-off of the show, that will of course be "On Topic" here at ATPo.

So consider staying, everyone and all of you, or I will get very lonely here with my AtS pals.... : (

But if you don't, thanks so much for making this board the great place that it is and don't be a stranger!

[> [> [> There will be no Mutiny on the Buffy from me, Masq -- cougar, 17:23:52 05/12/03 Mon

Will we look like David Brinkley?

[> [> [> Re: Note to everyone: please don't leave, even if you don't watch Angel -- CW, 17:25:16 05/12/03 Mon

There will no doubt be many fantastic essays written by our posters over the course of the summer and into the Fall.

Fantanstic maybe more than I can manage, but I'm working on an essay on the rites of passage of BtVS over the entire series, which will be ready after the June meet. There are lots of possibilities for thematic and character essays. Pick a topic and help keep ATPoBtVS&AtS going strong this summer! And don't run off just because essay writing isn't your thing. Keep Buffy the series alive in your hearts and minds! ;o)

[> [> [> A request for people with DVD's -- s'kat, 17:35:27 05/12/03 Mon

This summer, we will be featuring a different episode of BtVS every week as the "official" episode to talk about, and having multiple-thread in-depth discussions about it as we always do, but with the great advantage of 7 seasons of hind-sight.

Look for the first ep discussion "Welcome to the Hellmouth" on June 9th.

If anyone would be willing to include tidbits of Joss Whedons or the writers commentary where available on these episodes - I would be really happy. You don't have to write out a transcript or anything - just a summary - sort of an interaction between us and the writer.

[> [> [> [> Some of those are in the archives -- Masq, 18:27:18 05/12/03 Mon

We can cut and paste to the main board to start off a thread on writer/producer comments.

[> [> [> Not a chance, Masq. I have no intention of abandoning ya'll. Been here two years and... -- Random, 18:28:24 05/12/03 Mon

met many wonderful, intelligent people here, people who can make my day just by writing something, or e-mailing me, or chatting with me. Here for the long haul.

[> [> [> I am warm, I'm loved, but I'm not nearly finished...you'll have to kick me out of paradise..;) -- Rufus, 19:14:00 05/12/03 Mon

Had a conversation with my poor husband today...he came home after a long shift to my announcement....."I still have a job....my Trolloping days aren't numbered.." He just smiled and sent you all his condolences for having to put up with me.

[> [> [> No need to worry this year, Masq. I dub the next few months "The Annotated Buffy Summer(s)." ;o) -- Rob (whose goal is to complete the 3rd season by September!), 20:03:40 05/12/03 Mon

[> [> [> I'm not going anywhere. -- cjl, 21:00:24 05/12/03 Mon

I'm staying mired in my neurotic obsession with all things BUFFY (and ANGEL) until the last trace of the Joss-verse has disappeared from the airwaves....

(Yay?)

[> [> [> [> ain't goin' nowhere...till ol' rockin' chair git me -- anom, 23:00:09 05/12/03 Mon

Hell, I've already got the "cane by my side"! I'm stickin' around!

[> [> [> As long as Joss still has a show on, I'll keep coming around -- deeva, 21:44:56 05/12/03 Mon

cause this is still where it's all at. Kind of like home in cyberspace. I've never been anywhere else where I wanted to actually meet the posters. I love the balance of the serious discussions with the silly thoughts. Though there is ocassionally a little drama, it's resolved fairly quickly and later it's usually followed up by a parody of said situation. I particularly love those! Where else do they take board arguments and strife and turn it into musicals and little plays or "reality tv shows"? I love this place.

[> [> [> Try and get rid of me. Go on. Just try. -- dub ;o) :::working on developing imperviousity:::, 22:18:47 05/12/03 Mon

[> [> [> [> Don't you worry, I'll send over a few of my demon cats.....;) -- Rufus, 07:08:35 05/13/03 Tue

[> [> [> No, Please, make it June 10th -- Vickie, 22:59:17 05/12/03 Mon

New Buffy night is always Tuesday.

[> [> [> [> LOL! You're absolutely right, Vickie! -- Masq, 05:42:07 05/13/03 Tue

See... what I actually meant was the week of June 9th. You know, after the Vancouver board meet.

Plus, I think most people will either be recovering from the meet on Monday, or still in Vancouver!

[> [> [> No place I'd rather be, so you're pretty much stuck with me! -- Scroll, popping old "Buffy" tapes into the VCR, 00:49:26 05/13/03 Tue

[> [> [> Hah! Like you *could* get rid of me now! ;) -- LadyStarlight, 06:37:33 05/13/03 Tue

[> [> Re: Definitely! And a thank you to all! -- Arethusa, 17:46:25 05/12/03 Mon

Thanks, dream. I've enjoyed your posts very much. I hate to think of anybody leaving. I think I too will go into denial and pretend that everyone will drop by often to talk and share new ideas. I've enjoyed this whole experience so much, I can't say good-bye yet.

[> [> Never fade away -- Fred the obvious pseudonym, 20:02:21 05/12/03 Mon

Between fan fiction & movies, Buffy need never end.

And hey, if there's an official "My Mother the Car" site (I'm sure there is) why not keep AtpoBtvs going for decades?

[> [> [> Re: Never fade away -- Masq, 20:46:21 05/12/03 Mon

why not keep AtpoBtvs going for decades?

As long as Liquidram is willing to put up with me. Then I'll find another server for all this stuff!

Same goes for Voy and the board!

[> [> [> [> Yay! And honestly... -- Rob, 22:19:52 05/12/03 Mon

...this site is such a great resource that it should stay on-line always, even years after the show is over.

Rob

[> [> [> [> [> That's my thinking on it... -- Masq, 05:56:54 05/13/03 Tue

[> [> Re: Be warned, I will keep writing Buffy poetry -- Brian, 20:28:11 05/12/03 Mon

until they pry the keyboard out of my cold, dead hand.

In for a penny, in for a pound
Buffy makes my world go round.

[> therapy may be required -- purplegrrl, 13:12:13 05/12/03 Mon

Yes, therapy may be required without my Tuesday night BtVS fix. [Of course, there are some that would say I may need therapy anyway.;-)] Buffy has invaded my life! I've been known to offer someone a shiny nickel if they'll do me a favor (ala Xander) -- although most of my friends don't get the reference. I've written about these characters, dreamt about them. Heck, I've wanted to climb into the TV and *be* one of them!

Our only salvation is that Angel has been renewed for the fall. I hope they continue the great writing that they had this season. (I think this season of Angel has been better than Buffy -- I'm getting cranky about all the whining by the potential Slayers. However, I really like that character of Caleb. At first I didn't even recognize Nathan Fillion from "Firefly." Which makes me believe we haven't seen the last of the Scoobies.)

There is also supposed to be a BtVS spin-off in the works. It's supposed to star one of the women from Maxim magazine's 100 Women (sorry, can't remember her name).

[> [> Whatwhatwhat??? -- O'Cailleagh, 04:43:38 05/13/03 Tue

What's this? A spinoff I haven't heard about? Please elaborate, oh Purply One!

O'Cailleagh

[> [> [> I think this is that Holly Vallance thing -- KdS, 06:09:11 05/13/03 Tue

A few weeks ago a UK newspaper reported a story that Holly Vallance of Neighbours and rude pop video "fame" would be playing the next Slayer in a spin-off. Nothing from ME then or since, and general opinion on the board has it that it was Ms. Vallance's management trying to re-energise her career.

[> [> [> [> Hehehehe! 'Rude pop video fame' -- O'Cailleagh, 18:44:49 05/13/03 Tue

Phew! Its only that again! Yeah, it probably came from the same people who gave us the wonderful Britney rumour for like 3 years running! Never gonna happen..either one!

O'Cailleagh

[> grasping at any straws: Is the last episode only an hour long? -- Rochefort, 14:43:10 05/12/03 Mon

[> [> Yep. -- deeva, looking into the crystal ball known as TV guide, 15:08:02 05/12/03 Mon

[> [> animal panicking here! -- cougar, 15:16:45 05/12/03 Mon

My TV times in Canada says tomorrow is the finale, one hour but part one of two. Do people in the US see two hours tomorrow? So isn't there one next week too. Because if it ends tomorrow....I'm just not ready for it not it be there....

[> [> [> Calm down, pretty kitty. -- deeva, putting the crystal ball through the paces, 15:41:38 05/12/03 Mon

According to the listings, it's just one hour each week. It just means the the last 2 eps. are parts 1 & 2 of each other. And don't worry, I don't believe many of us are ready for it to end period.

[> [> [> [> Still crying in my milk here -- cougar ;-<, 15:50:41 05/12/03 Mon

and feeling all twitchy, like before an earthquake.

[> [> [> [> pretty kitty pity ditty -- cougar ;>), 21:38:15 05/12/03 Mon

actually feeling better now! Noone's leaving here in a furry hurry. So we can sit back and look at the whole Buffy Gestalt. I mean, Socrates has been gone a while but people still talk about him, don't they? We just needed some basic primal reassurance and social grooming behaviours to know that the troupe is still intact. Before the word... there were smiles.

[> 'Nothing acts faster than Annotating' -- MsGiles, 11:48:13 05/13/03 Tue

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