May 2002
posts
Some
questions from abroad, inc. an OT one for the guys (Spoilers
for Villains, and S7 speculation) -- Marie, 07:13:34
05/20/02 Mon
Before I get to the questions, some things that made me go
"Mmmm!" (and that's not the "Mmmm" of the yummmmy kind):
1. I noticed that both Xander and Buffy had changed clothes
in the what-to-do-with-Dawn-scene. Nothing wrong with that.
Blood 'n everything. But does Xander keep clean clothes at
Buffy's, or did he take the time to go home and change? And
Buffy was looking beautiful and glamorously fashionable -
which I'm not denying she is, of course, but, well, I
couldn't help but wonder if I'd be so 'together' after I'd
been shot, lost one friend irretrievably and another to the
vengeance trail. Not exactly a criticism, just an
'mmm…'.
2. Someone else has mentioned the lack of police presence,
so I won't go into that again, except to say that I would've
expected them to be in an interrogation room for at least
several hours, not to mention having to explain themselves
to some social worker somewhere along the line. Again,
'mmm…'.
3. In the ER, I realise that Willow was using a spell on the
doctors and nurses, but would it've killed them to act it?
They just walked out, sort of normally, if you know what I
mean. Bad editing, you think? I'd like to have seen it
appear more, er, spelly…
There are more, but most have been discussed here very
eloquently already.
And one thing (in two parts) that made me go
'Aaarrgh!"::
Again with the application of the bandage-thingummy on
top of the clothes! I can't tell you how annoying I
find this! Well, okay, I am doing, but still… Richard-of-
the sword-wound fared no better, but that was at the hands
of the Scoobs. These guys were paramedics! And
again in the ER! Ach! The doctors didn't even cut away her
clothes to get the bullet out! "Aaarrgh"!
Now to my questions (who said 'About time!'?):
1. What are bugles?
2. What is 'Country Time'?
And my third is OT, and for the guys, mainly -
Now, I can look at Charisma Carpenter (pre-latest hairdo, I
have to say!) and think "God, she's just gorgeous!", in a
very admiring, non-sexual way, as I know many of my female
friends do about other females. And I was watching 'Sleepy
Hollow' at the weekend, and thinking "God, he's just
gorgeous!" about Johnny Depp (pause for a sigh). So do men
think that about other men, at all? Straight men, I mean.
Do you look at James Marsters and admire his cheekbones? I
asked a colleague that today, and he was horrified, though
he did admit to looking at men's physiques, "in a very manly
way", he hastened to add. I just couldn't understand why he
was so appalled at the question, so I thought I'd put it to
you.
And, finally, my speculation:
I think I was the first on the board to speculate that ME
had nowhere to go with Spike now, other than make him human.
And I just wanted to say, after hearing the cave-demon's
dirty laugh, I am more convinced than ever that this is the
way they'll go. Spike's not going to be the vampire he once
was, he's going to be the man he once was.
Marie
[>
Re: Some questions from abroad... (villians
spoilers) -- Solitude1056, 08:11:06 05/20/02 Mon
First, I agree about the no-cutting-clothes away. You could
argue "mainstream teevee" but they do it on ER, so why not
stick to the realistic element here, too? Xander always
seems to wear an undershirt - he could've just handed her
his shirt. Minor amusement factor, too. But whatever.
1. Bugles are a type of little crunchy snack, made from corn
(I think) and taste sort of like popcorn that's been redone
into a bugle-like shape.
2. Country Time lemonade is someone's advertising idea of
concentrated lemonade (or worse, powdered form).
Both, curiously, are brand names - as opposed to just
saying, "I was going to fix up some lemonade" or "I have
munchies" - but that's what I would've expected from Spike.
Clem, on the other hand, seems far more grounded in
the "real world" by specifying the brand names, as if he
does go shopping and hence knows the particular
flavors/brands that he likes & buys. I don't think it's
product placement so much as a subtle awareness that there's
a difference between saying "I'll put on some jeans" versus
"I'll put on my levi's." Kinda implying that you know
there's a difference - and that makes sense for Clem. (I
also liked the note in the shooting script that clarifies
that Clem "likes folks to be happy.")
I'm still ambivalent about the idea that Dawn had to be
"sent somewhere to be safe" - and why not Janice, anyway? -
but it's not an issue with Buffy and Xander, since it was
Dawn who decided, not them. And now that I think about it,
Xander and Buffy had already been semi-attacked by Willow
(in electrifying them on the highway) so I guess it does
make sense that Buffy would want Dawn out of the way. Just
seems that everytime there's something in town, Dawn has to
be put "out of the way." Getting rather old, IMO...
[> [>
Deep thought on Bugles -- dream of the consortium,
09:35:05 05/20/02 Mon
Just to add to the "why" of the choices here - these are not
cool brands. These are the snacks your grandmother might
pick up with a coupon because she knows you're coming for a
visit.
Dawn needed to be put out of the way in part because Warren
was still loose, and because she's been through trauma and
shouldn't be left alone - she needs to FEEL safe, not just
be safe. The whole "someone needs to look out for Dawn
thing" is getting a little old, admittedly, since she is as
old as the Scoobies were when they started, but there is
also a truth to it. Buffy is, essentially, a single mother.
Single mothers cope with child-care issues all the time.
And they are tiring and annoying and never let up. I think
that's part of the point of always showing Buffy caring for
Dawn - Dawn is her responsibility, all the time. I assume
she can't go to Janice's because, well, poor Dawn! She's
just spent the day with a the body of someone dear to her,
she can't explain it all without getting into the fact the
her sister was shot as well, but is better now and in fact
out looking for a very angry out-of-control witch. Her
wanting to be with Spike made sense to me, and when Clem was
there instead, it made sense that she would stay there.
The hospital and emergency worker and police stuff - much
harder to explain. (Unless you assume, as I have chosen to,
that Buffy's address is marked in the police computer as
"ask no questions, leave quickly.)
[> [> [>
Maybe Clem is so anti-cool, he's cool? So Clemsnacks
are cool too? -- Ixchel, 16:56:09 05/20/02 Mon
What can I say? I'm a Clem fan (he's endearing, alleged
kitten-noshing aside).
I believe you have excellent points about Dawn. And if
Buffy seems overprotective, well there's no guarantee that
Dawn is no longer a villain-magnet (something that Buffy
must subconsciously recognize). Also, Dawn's relationship
with Janice must be superficial because Janice can't really
_know_ her (Buffy was lucky that Willow and Xander stumbled
into her secret and then didn't run away). That Dawn would
feel safe and more at ease with Spike is understandable (he
knows about her "real" life). While Clem doesn't know about
Dawn (though he knows Buffy's the Slayer, which is
interesting as he's not afraid of her), he would understand
unusual events (his calm at the birthday party is a good
indication of this).
I think your assumption that Buffy's house is flagged in the
police computer is a good one. It makes perfect sense.
Ixchel
[> [> [> [>
Clem is definitely wrap-around cool!!!! -- dream of
the consortium, 07:10:17 05/21/02 Tue
He's so cool he doesn't care if he eats Grandma snacks.
Bring on the strawberry hard candies with the squishy
centers!
(I love Clem - was just pointing out that ME seemed to
choose brands that implied a sort of sweet squareness.)
[> [> [>
Re: Deep thought on Bugles -- ravenhair,
14:24:04 05/21/02 Tue
I found Clem's hospitality (offering comfort food & Spike's
"comfy chair" to Dawn) wonderfully refreshing. Clem can give
the SG a lesson in manners and coach Spike on how to be a
gentleman...or gentledemon.
[> [>
Country Time -- RichardX1,
08:29:22 05/21/02 Tue
2. Country Time lemonade is someone's advertising idea of
concentrated lemonade (or worse, powdered form).
I'm reminded of an episode of The Simpsons where the
Springfield kids were trying to get their stolen lemon tree
back from Shelbyville. Martin (the kind of chubby smart
kid) sees a child's lemonade stand, and demands to know
where the child got the lemons from.
"Uh...this is Country Time lemonade mix. There's never been
anything close to a lemon in it, I swear!"
(Thanks to The Simpsons Archive (www.snpp.com) for the
quote)
[>
Answers and evasions -- Darby, 10:38:31 05/20/02
Mon
My wife and I point out good-looking people to each other
all the time, so we both notice attractive members of the
same gender (and are pretty attuned to each other's tastes),
so I guess that's a "yes" to the guy question. Funny, JM's
basic looks don't really suit my wife's tastes (same thing
for SMG and me), but charisma, talent, and familiarity all
can change that.
The Sunnydale Police are a problem better ignored as much as
possible. You could kinda sorta pass off their blindness
when we discovered that the Mayor was influencing things
from above, but who's running things now? Is it a former
"minion" who knows just enough to stay out of certain
people's ways (what would an investigation of the Ascension
have turned up about Buffy's involvement)? Is it another
power source with dark intent? Is it just bad writing?
There certainly could be a good story there if someone
wanted to think things through.
And I like Bugles, every once in a while. A great salt fix,
but I spend most of the rest of the day picking them out of
my teeth (too much information?)...
[> [>
Sunnydale Police (SPOILERS for Villains and Tales of
the Slayer) -- Robert, 11:10:31 05/20/02 Mon
>> "The Sunnydale Police are a problem better ignored as
much as possible. You could kinda sorta pass off their
blindness when we discovered that the Mayor was influencing
things from above, but who's running things now? Is it a
former "minion" who knows just enough to stay out of certain
people's ways (what would an investigation of the Ascension
have turned up about Buffy's involvement)? Is it another
power source with dark intent? Is it just bad writing? There
certainly could be a good story there if someone wanted to
think things through."
We might view the police situation in a slightly different
way. It has been only 3 years since Mayor Wilkins was
removed from authority. How long did the mayor control the
police and the city before then? The answer is; since the
founding of Sunnydale in the 1800's. This is revealed in
the "Tales of the Slayer" comic book. David Fury wrote the
relevant story "The Glittering World", where he revealed
that Richard Wilkens knowingly and purposely established the
town on top of the hellmouth.
Mayor Wilkens established and ran the bureaucracy for a
hundred years. If he purposely designed a police department
to be incompetent, 3 years under new administration won't
fix that. We know the Sunnydale police were incompetent 3
years ago (Principal Snyder told us they were). Though their
actions (or the lack thereof) are proof enough. Would it be
reasonable to believe that a new administration could change
the course of the bureaucracy and rebuild a police
department in just 3 years? Bureaucracies take on a life of
their own, and it is very difficult to change them.
[> [> [>
Well said, Robert. I believe it's a self-perpetuating
system. -- Ixchel, 16:20:34 05/20/02 Mon
Direction from above is no longer needed to maintain the
incompetence of the SD police department. In fact, I would
imagine a sort of natural selection is going on among the
regular patrol officers. The ones who are curious,
thorough, whatever would run into the more interesting
inhabitants of SD and get killed. The ones who followed
regular procedures (established by the Mayor) and ignored
anything beyond the mundane would probably live to see
retirement. Of course, this would be subconscious, I doubt
the majority of SD admits anything to each other or
themselves about the truth of their town.
Ixchel
[> [>
What irritates me is that the Sunnydale PD occasionally
has GOOD days... -- cjl, 11:17:54 05/20/02 Mon
For instance, whenever Buffy is falsely accused of murder
("Ted," "Becoming") the cops are on her skinny butt in a
nanosecond. When Spike dumped Katrina's body in "Dead
Things," they were remarkably efficient in dredging the
river and finding it on the SAME NIGHT. Apparently, the
Sunnydale PD is either efficient or incompetent when their
action/inaction causes the most stress on our main
characters. [Must remain calm...must look at series
metaphorically...don't examine details too closely...hum
soothingly to yourself, and the plot holes will
disappear...]
Bugles...washed down by Country Tyme lemonade. Mmmmmmm...I
can feel my arteries dissolving already....
[> [> [>
arteries aren't dissoving, they're clogging -- MI
for a good cause, 12:10:19 05/20/02 Mon
[> [> [> [>
When you combine the salt & fat fom the Bugles and the
sugar from the lemonade...they're dissolving. -- cjl,
12:14:59 05/20/02 Mon
[> [> [> [> [>
which is why you should just eat chocolate at a time
like this, -- redcat, 13:05:40 05/20/02 Mon
like I suggested before. Then at least you'll *enjoy* the
experience of having your arteries dissolve... I mean,
Bugles and powdered lemonade, ughh!
and don't even THINK of bringing up the liverwurst....
[> [> [> [> [> [>
i feel that old allan sherman feeling coming on...
-- anom, 22:38:00 05/20/02 Mon
"and don't even THINK of bringing up the liverwurst...."
When you go to the delicatessen store
Don't buy the liverwurst
Don't buy the liverwurst
Don't buy the liverwurst....
(to the tune of Down by the Riverside)
[> [> [> [> [> [> [>
yeah, but can you carry a tune? -- redcat,
09:07:22 05/21/02 Tue
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
actually, yeah--i'm pretty good -- anom,
11:14:54 05/21/02 Tue
[> [> [> [> [>
Internal hemmorhaging from eating bugles and drinking
country time -- matching mole, 13:06:25 05/20/02
Mon
Never heard of such a thing - doesn't mean it hasn't
happened.
[> [> [> [> [> [>
Bugles are quite poinky and lemonade is acidic --
disastrous combo -- pr10n, 16:07:22 05/20/02 Mon
[> [> [> [> [> [> [>
Human physiology -- matching mole, 05:32:58
05/21/02 Tue
Might I point out that by the time the Bugles get to the
blood stream they are no longer pointy - they are individual
molecules. And the acidity of the blood is well regulated -
if it changed too much then you would have some nasty health
problems long before your arterial walls started
dissolving.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
Wanted: Comedic Exaggeration font -- cjl,
08:27:10 05/21/02 Tue
The dissolving arteries comment was not meant as a serious
scientific dissertation on "the effect of high-glucose/high-
fat concentrated beverages/snack treats on the human cardio-
vascular system."
I think this segment of the thread needs an angioplasty,
stat.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
Re: Human physiology -- pr10n, 11:13:59 05/21/02
Tue
(Comedic_Font_Mode)
Point taken. Still, if one were to hurl an open bag of
Bugles into the air, and then lie down, then a certain
number of them would fall poinky side down, and possibly
pierce one's skin horribly, like little corn-flavored
funnels just waiting for lemonade to be poured into
them.
Hence the agonizing acidic interaction.
(/Comedic_Font_Mode)
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
Re: Human physiology -- Arethusa, 11:28:17
05/21/02 Tue
Which begs the question: If you dropped a DmP burger, which
is mostly cellulose, let's say from something like sawdust,
from a great height, could it be considered a stake (if not
steak) and kill a vampire with junk food?
[> [> [>
Re: Good Days for Sunnydale Police (various old
SPOILERS) -- Robert, 14:10:00 05/20/02 Mon
Let us look at your examples of the competence of the
police.
>> "...whenever Buffy is falsely accused of murder ("Ted,"
"Becoming") the cops are on her skinny butt in a
nanosecond."
Starting with "Ted", Buffy was not falsely accused of
murder. You need to view the episode again, but Buffy
confessed to killing Ted without any prompting. The police
were called to the Summers' house, presumably by Joyce, to
deal with the body. Buffy confessed and submitted to
custody. The police did nothing beyond the very routine.
On to "Becoming", the police show up at the school library.
Somebody called them (presumably Principal Snyder or maybe
one of Angelus' gang). I leaning toward Snyder since he
showed up at the same time to stink up the place. The
police assume with no evidence and no interrogation that
Buffy is the guilty party, just because she happened to be
at the scene and Snyder declared her to be trouble. The
police take her into custody without hearing or wanting her
explanation. Then, as she is escaping, they take pot shots
at her rather than attempting recapture her. Surely two
fully trained police officers should be able to run down and
tackle an 17 year old highschool girl. Obviously not, since
Buffy is the slayer, but neither Snyder nor the police knew
this. This whole scene appeared to me to be a thoroughly
unpleasant screw-up by Snyder and the police.
>> "When Spike dumped Katrina's body in "Dead Things," they
were remarkably efficient in dredging the river and finding
it on the SAME NIGHT."
Regarding "Dead Things", the police did not dredge the
river, because Katrina was found on the river bank. Spike
screwed up once again. He thought he had cleverly dealt with
the body, that no one would ever find it, that Katrina
effectively didn't exist. Well, he was wrong.
Here's an excerpt from the shooting script.
BUFFY
What did you do?
SPIKE
I took care of it.
BUFFY
What did you do?!
SPIKE
What I had to! I went back and took
care of it. It doesn't matter now.
No one will ever find her.
COP #1 (O.S.)
Where'd they find her?!
COP #2
The river. She washed up half mile from the cemetery.
The episode did not provide us any evidence of a competent
police investigation. All they had was a body and no
suspects. They were not even looking for a body, because
they didn't know a crime had taken place. Presumably,
someone saw the body on the river bank and called to police
to deal with it. How do they deal with it? They discuss in
public the details of the crime. By overhearing these
details, Buffy determines who the perpetrator is. Again, I
don't see any of this as competent work on the part of the
police.
[> [> [> [>
OK, you've convinced me. Their track record remains
completely blemished. -- cjl, 14:18:04 05/20/02
Mon
Oddly enough, though, confirming this history of gross
incompetence by law enforcement officials doesn't comfort
me.
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: OK, you've convinced me. -- Robert, 16:23:54
05/20/02 Mon
>> "... confirming this history of gross incompetence by law
enforcement officials doesn't comfort me."
And well is should not! I have lived in places where the
police were terrifyingly incompetent. It can be a bad
situation. However, I do believe that Mutant Enemy has been
consistent and deliberate in regards to the competence of
the Sunnydale police. This is one of the things that makes
the Sunnydale setting so creepy.
It also feeds into the overall metaphor of seasons 1, 2 and
3, in which high school is hell and authority figures can't
not be counted upon for protection. The ultimate authority
figure in Sunnydale (Mayor Wilkens) intended upon eating the
graduating class. He would not want a competent police
department getting in the way of his grand scheme.
[> [> [> [>
Katrina's body -- alcibiades, 15:40:52 05/20/02
Mon
I still think it was the trio who messed up Spike's
enterprise with Katrina's body in DT. And that Warren and
co. think that Buffy and Spike colluded over it, which is
why they refer to it as Buffy's game. Otherwise this little
exchange makes not much sense.
WARREN
Wasn't that hard messing her game up.
She figures it out, we'll take care
of her.
[>
In the ER (Spoilers for Villains) -- Robert,
10:38:48 05/20/02 Mon
>> "3. In the ER, I realise that Willow was using a spell on
the doctors and nurses, but would it've killed them to act
it? They just walked out, sort of normally, if you know what
I mean. Bad editing, you think? I'd like to have seen it
appear more, er, spelly…"
Actually, I liked it this way. The situation came across as
more ominous. In the past we would see some evidence of a
spell being cast, but now Willow has become so powerful that
she can effortlessly take control of the emergency room
personnel.
My thoughts were more toward the type of spell Willow might
have used. Did she control the people's actions, or did she
control their will or desire? Did she physically force them
to walk out of the room or did she psychically make them
want to leave? I am leaning toward the second possibility.
It appeared to me as if the ER personnel just decided to be
somewhere else. I didn't see any battle of wills or efforts
to regard control of their bodies.
[>
Re: Some questions from abroad, inc. -- JR,
11:11:14 05/20/02 Mon
The greatest thing about Bugles is that you can wear them on
your fingers like super-long witchy finger-nails and then
eat them off one-by-one like olives.
The worst thing about Bugles is that the total saturated fat
content of one serving(not much) of regular Bugles is equal
to that of a regular-sized Snickers candy bar. Sad, but
true. Now I KNOW that was too much information
[>
yep, I agree with everything you said.... --
Rochefort, 11:27:13 05/20/02 Mon
First.... I blame Marti Noxon for the plot holes and I
wouldn't tear off her skin or anything but maybe we could
just tie her between two trees for a while so she can think
about it.
Second, I TOTALLY agree with you that Spike is going to be
human which I think will be totally great.
Third, American men do not find other men attractive at ALL!
Don't ask us if you do not wish to seriously challenge our
masculinity. But if we diiiiiid find someone attractive it
would probably be Spike. BUT WE DON'T!
Rochefort
[> [>
Re: yep, I agree with everything you said.... --
Robert, 14:14:32 05/20/02 Mon
>> "I blame Marti Noxon for the plot holes and I wouldn't
tear off her skin or anything but maybe we could just tie
her between two trees for a while so she can think about
it."
Rochefort, you're taking this a little too personally aren't
you? I worry when a fan threatens bodily harm on a
writer.
[> [> [>
no no no..... not bodily harrrrrm. Psychological.
It's a whole different thing. -- Rochefort, 15:13:32
05/21/02 Tue
[>
I don't notice other guys at all -- vampire hunter
D, 12:15:47 05/20/02 Mon
I just don't get it. I can't even figure out what it is
that girls are looking at. ANd I have tried. I've looked
at James Marsters, I've looked at Tom Cruise, and David
Boreanes and Mel Gibson, and still can't figure out what
everyone likes so much. I see them and it's like looking at
a wall to me. Man, I am so not gay.
I had this conversation with Etrangere a few weeks ago, and
she can't get why girls can tell if another girl is hot, but
guys can't see it in other guys. And I had no answers for
her. I wondered if lesbians can see it (not bi, but totally
lesbo, like Tara). But since neither of us knew any to ask,
that question went unanswered.
Uh, any lesbians out there who can answer that?
abd on another topic, I don't like Bugles, or COuntry time.
I prefer Potato chips or something like cheezitz. And I
prefer real lemonade to concentrate
[>
Re: guys looking at other guys -- pr10n,
12:37:05 05/20/02 Mon
> "in a very manly way", he hastened to add.
This then is the theme of my post: Manliness and looking at
other men.
I look at other guys for two reasons: to say "Whew, glad I
don't look like that," or "Man, I wish I looked like
that."
Movie star examples: I have always admired Tom Selleck's
looks, becuase I just have to think the chicks dig him.
Strong but funny, chin-dimples-hair-physique, charming.
I think that if I woke up looking like Willem Dafoe I would
scream and find a paper bag to wear on my head.
Like you say, non-sexual. I have a difficult time imagining
the intricacies involved with same-sex physicality. I can't
get past the boring sameness. Charisma Carpenter, OTOH, her
I can imagine intricacies with. [pauses to catch breath,
looks around for coworkers]
Still, if I had to remake myself I would definately know
what male features I'd choose from the menu. I look at guys
-- James Marsters with the flat stomach, arms, cheekbones
and jaw, "strong and mysterious and sort of compact but well-
muscled" -- I "hate" them for my own fatter, flabbier,
weaker self-image problems, but I know why the chicks dig
him.
I'm taller, though. :)
[>
Re: Some questions from abroad -- Cactus Watcher,
13:38:49 05/20/02 Mon
I wouldn't necesarily agree that women always know what guys
are going to think looks great in a woman, after all guys
tend to disagree about it among themselves.
Have to admit that never once in my life have I ever said to
myself "God, he's gorgeous!" about anybody. Do I have
opinions about how guys look? Sure. But, it's not as if
I'd judge them personally on that basis. Young men are
generally shallow enough that that cannot be said about
their opinion of young women. Sorry, just one of the sad
facts of life. And men do usually learn better as they get
older.
But, men have a rather different set of standards for
themselves than women do for men. Would I like to look like
a young Tom Selleck or a young Sean Connery? Sure. But,
James Marster's? No offense, but I see a great actor, with a
hollow chest and a bony face. Interesting guy sure, but
great looking? Better as some girl about that! When I was
fairly young there was a famous athlete named Joe Namath
here in the US. Women thought he was gorgeous. I thought
he was on the homely side. Now that he's a lot older I
think most men and women would agree the guy is down-right
ugly. I think men tend to separate looks and personality
into separate categories more than women do. Then you mix
in the difficult-to-define quality of charisma and everybody
is all fouled up, both men and women.
[> [>
Speaking as a young man of 22... -- VampRiley,
19:33:31 05/20/02 Mon
...I can only agree with part of that.
Men do go out, and after a while of rejections and
relationships that you know aren't gonna work from the get
go, many young guys just want to "sow their wild oats".
Sometimes priorities change and they just want to satisfy
their urges without getting emotionally hurt or sometimes
they get pressured by their peers.
When it comes to any kind of relationship, whether it's
men/women, men/men, women/women, business or personal, there
are two areas -- the mental and the physical. And the
physical is the most readily available. Both men and women
can look at someone and think if they are attracted to them.
That's a given. But there a lot of men, who aren't shallow,
who look at someone, for the most part, mentally, while a
lot of woman, who are shallow, who can look at a man, for
the most part, physically. Many men protect themselves from
getting emotionally hurt by hiding behind a macho, "all-I-
want-is-sex-and-I-don't-want-to-get-involved-emotionally-
with-anyone.-Just-want-cheap,-meaningless-sex" attitude.
They fool themselves into thinking that this is healthy.
That there is safety in it. And there is safety. But it's
the safety of loneliness and despair with no real emotional
connection to make them feel alive. The safety that only
disgustingly cheap and meaningless sex can provide. They
don't want to take the chance of getting hurt. Only they
don't realize that getting hurt is a necessary risk if you
want to find someone to be happy with. The only way to avoid
pain is to close yourself off emotionally from the rest of
the world for the rest of your life.
But while I can't speak for other guys, I've looked at women
and thought of whether or not I'd sleep with them or looked
at certain parts of their anatomy. There's nothing wrong
with appreciating the human body. But I don't stand there
like some sort of freak oogling and salivating at the mouth
as a woman walks by. Or give them horny leers that would
disgust them and make them want to puke up stuff they
swallowed when they were five. My appreciating is usually
left to just movements of my eyes as I walk by, that is, I
do that when I'm not already with a woman. What can I say?
I'm just an old soul. But I just can't really think much
about who they are mentally unless I know something about
them or have some sort of conversation. And I can't stop and
talk to everyone of them.
As for men, I see them. Don't really think much about it.
But I'm secure enough with myself, and who and what I am,
that I can say it and not worry what others might think,
kinda like how Clem is. Some guys grow up insecure, like
most people. Now, while they may find nothing wrong with
someone who is gay, they are worried about those that do
discriminate against those that are gay and they don't want
rumors to spread that they are gay. They find life is tough
as it is and they don't want to have to defend what they
are. Many people will believe a rumor to be true no matter
how much you try to convince them otherwise. There are some
people who do judge others by their sexual orientation. No
matter how far we have come as a culture and a nation, there
are still some that do believe this, either from their our
misinformed life experiences or how they were raised. This
isn't a justification. It's, unfortunately, just how some
men view it.
VR
[> [> [>
and as a young woman of 22... -- celticross,
21:24:22 05/20/02 Mon
There are a lot of women who make themselves physically
available for the same reasons men do, and for others. They
think it's what men want, and many times have so little self-
respect that they feel they have nothing else to offer.
It's a sad thing that many young women feel there's nothing
special about them, so the only way into a secure
relationship is to be sexually available, then badger the
guy into marriage. I personally find this method of finding
a partner rather ridiculous, but maybe I'm an old soul, too.
And thanks for not drooling in a completely obvious way, VR.
:) It makes a girl feel good to know she's attractive, but
leering just makes a guy look pathetic.
[> [> [> [>
Thanks, all of you. Some very interesting answers!
-- Marie, 02:32:13 05/21/02 Tue
[> [> [> [> [>
Glad to help. Information is contagious --
VampRiley, 10:03:50 05/21/02 Tue
[>
Judging the appearance of the same sex -- RichardX1,
08:38:29 05/21/02 Tue
Now, I can look at Charisma Carpenter (pre-latest hairdo,
I have to say!) and think "God, she's just gorgeous!", in a
very admiring, non-sexual way, as I know many of my female
friends do about other females. And I was watching 'Sleepy
Hollow' at the weekend, and thinking "God, he's just
gorgeous!" about Johnny Depp (pause for a sigh). So do men
think that about other men, at all? Straight men, I mean. Do
you look at James Marsters and admire his cheekbones? I
asked a colleague that today, and he was horrified, though
he did admit to looking at men's physiques, "in a very manly
way", he hastened to add. I just couldn't understand why he
was so appalled at the question, so I thought I'd put it to
you.
Basically, I go by the criteria of "Would I be at least as
comfortable with my appearance if I looked like [whomever]
as I am with my real appearance?" And from that perspective
I can say, yes, James Marsters is certainly handsome enough
that I wouldn't mind looking like him.
Soliloquy --
JM, 12:12:56 05/20/02 Mon
Sorry, guys. I've been off the boards for a while now. And
haven't done a very good job of keeping up with you all's
posts. (Half of April is lost to me until the archives go
up.) Hopefully I don't ruffle any feathers or rehash
subjects that are closed. It'll all be moot by tonight I'm
sure. Good to be back finally.
Okay, the wedding, the reception, the honeymoon, and all the
ensuing madness is finally done. So too the post-honeymoon
glow where I tried to express my ineffable adoration by
cleaning, brushing my cat, and trying to get on top of the
thank you notes. I finally snapped and took a four-hour
lunch break in order to go home and watched all my horded up
“Angel” and “Buffy” eps. Now I’m all catched up and
sufficiently ‘Netted up to be feeling the trapped bird of
self-expression beating wildly in my breast. So onward
Christian essayists.
One sad admission I must make is that hoarded volume and
absence from the boards actually enhanced my viewing
enjoyment. For once this season I have been able to revel
in the vacuum of received opinions and entertain none but my
own, allow not but my own enjoyment. For almost the first
time, I could truly sit and savor the work. Approve and
treasure clipped Cordy’s wisdom and compassion, marvel at
her angelic gifts. Cherish Groo’s insupportable innocence.
Appreciate Angel’s intensity and attempts at decency. Adore
how intimately Gunn and Fred know one another, he her
perfect day, she his true nobility. (Never takes her more
than two guesses.) And, because this is me we’re talking
about, marvel in the inscrutable marvel that is Wesley.
Reel in shock at his final first speech and then relish the
perfection of it. I, like just about everyone else, assumed
these long weeks, near months, that Wesley would be the
picture of desperation for forgiveness. We remember his
arrival in LA, his natural penchant for groveling, his
recent devastation at the end of “Billy,” that tiny flinch
of despair when he learned “it was all for nothing.” The
writers, without ever once making it explicit, have built on
that expectation of the audience. And then proceed to
casually smash it an instant, without letting us for a
moment doubt the terrible sincerity or inevitability of
it.
I’m mostly back out here again because of the need to form a
response. The human desire to strike back in defense of our
loved ones is too strong to be denied. And when I say loved
ones I mostly mean Wes, and AI, and the writers, and ME, and
especially Joss and Greenwalt, and those critics with the
understanding to appreciate the brilliance of the season,
and . . . well, maybe the list is getting a little long.
(Let me preface the rest with an assurance that I have
always found this board the exact contrary of the pockets of
fandom that drove me to this unsolicited defense. All
debate is adult, informed, mature, and open minded. Perhaps
I would simply be best off never wandering farther.) I
understand that the world of fan enthusiasm is filled with
strong emotions, quick fingers, greatly differing tastes,
and conflicting personal moral codes. On a certain level I
appreciate the diversity and utter freedom that the petrie
dish of the ‘Net provides for the cultivation of all
expression, even that of dubious sensibility. However, some
recently consumed opinions have sparked in me a serious
appetite for a thorough Apology. Unfortunately I only have
material and drive for a little one.
There are a couple of strong, and I personally suspect,
hasty opinions that have inspired me to muse about what I
have indeed perversely liked about the last quarter of the
season. One is the blame game. Some boards have been
consumed by shrill advocates clamoring for Wesley’s blood,
usually opposed by lopsided defenses that waver between
hagiography and blinkered insistence in laying the blame
entirely on the doorstep of the remaining team AI. Any
reduction to such simplicities is an insult and an injury to
the delicate and complex gift we have been given by the
writers: a situation where every action is built on the
noblest ideals of loyalty, heroism, and familial piety, but
simultaneously tainted by humanity’s darker emotions and a
mortal’s limited perspective. It is not who is to blame, it
is who will be destroyed?
Another strain that peeves is the attribution of Wes’s
vicious little speech to playing the martyr and seeking
pity. I doubt not that there is a more than a little self-
pity, though I suspect touched with self-mocking irony. I
doubt gravely that he sees himself as any form of martyr.
And I know he would disdain their pity. What he wants is a
tendril of loyalty, a shadow of trust. But what he demands
above all is any indication of love. That the burning love
he felt for every member of his team, the motivator to do
the terrible desperate, lonely thing he did, was ever
returned at all by any of them. And this he is now
convinced never was. It truly was all for nothing.
I also doubt not for a moment that the self-hatred he
expressed to Justine for the unforgivable action he was
about to take still burns as brightly as ever. He knows who
and what he is. He admitted as much to Lilah. That
probably feeds his despair more abundantly than the
ultimately futility of the false prophecy. Unfortunately
hatred of self is no bar to hatred of others. In the
darkness and silence and solitude, he looked deep into
himself and found a bitterness that is serving to bear him
up in his pain as successfully as hope kept him alive that
night. Only time will tell what part of the gentle Wes we
once knew will be irrevocably consumed.
And finally the last accusation that rankles me with
unfairness: inconsistent characterization. On one level an
entirely irrational response is provoked, inspired entirely
by the proprietary. These are ME’s characters, not our own,
no matter how deep our attachment. Anything they have them
do is therefore automatically a part of their character.
However that is really no defense at all.
I still think the charge is entirely unfounded. I’ve stated
before that I think the focus on “Angel” is drawn a step or
two back from what it is on “Buffy,” where we are entirely
in the emotions of the moment, nearly inside the skin of the
characters. On “Angel,” even in the most intense of
emotional scenes we are still relegated to the realm of the
observer, aware of the larger implications of the
characters’ actions, the wider canvass against which they
are being played out. On “Angel” our heroes’, and
villains,’ inner selves remain much more hidden to us. We
know that at anytime we are catching only a glimpse of who
they are. I really won’t allow one technique as superior to
the other, simply recognize them as distinctive
approaches.
I personally find nothing “out of character” in the
characters’ most recent behavior. There have long been
hints in each and every one of them that they are a mix of
noble and base impulses, intertwined to craft the complex
people that they are.
Yes, Wes has often been a portrait of gentle nobility,
loyalty, devotion, and chivalry. There have also been more
than a few hints of a nasty, petty side to him as well. As
much as he fought to deny those emotions when it came to
Gunn and Fred, the selfish resentment slipped out at least a
few times. And although it was mutual, Cordy and he were
absolutely vicious to each other for quite awhile. There
has on several occasions been a hint of cattiness to his
interactions with the Host. For that matter his treatment
of Giles when Wes first arrived in Sunnydale was largely
unprovoked. It’s just that now that he has lost everyone,
the petty emotions that lurked below have been entirely
unleashed and developed to a rather toxic base.
And more than a few mentions were made last year about the
fact that Wes’s sometimes incompetence was a response to
fears of other’s perceptions. He now believes that he can
sink no lower in his friend’s perceptions. And he is
rapidly convincing himself that there is no one’s whose
opinions he any longer cares about. Is it any wonder that
the bumbling self he once self-consciously was has been
replaced by a chilling cool? Despair has granted him a
freedom he has never known.
Is it out of character for Angel to seek oblivion of pain
through work? Well, for one thing it’s understandable.
This is a loss that can never be compensated for. And we
were given hints early this season when he attempted to deal
with Buffy’s death. He has arrived at a formula for what to
do when you lose a loved one irrevocably, an experience he
has had more than once. And on some level he must have
recognized the reality that he would likely outlive Connor
eventually. It just happened far sooner than he
expected.
Cordy. She will never again be the shallow, self-
referential queen of snark. Deal. It is impossible that
feeling the pain of so many others she would remain
untouched. There is at least one philosopher who believes
that true wisdom can only be achieved by those who are
dying. Cordy herself faced the greater portion of this
season with a secret death sentence over her head. On top
of that, how many moments before death has she experienced
thanks to her visions? Her perspective is largely due to
this experience that we as normal humans can only imagine.
And we have been granted whispers of the old Cordy. Her
blasé attitude toward Holtz’ death. Her off the cuff
“assi.” Her relationship with Groo, which reminds one of
what she once sought with exchange student Sven.
Gunn, in his relationship with Wesley. Gunn was quite
respectful of Angel before he went off the deep end. And
then quite brutal afterwards. It is unsurprising that he is
even angrier at the perceived betrayal of one he trusted far
more. Some one he actually acknowledged as his superior.
Something “The Shroud of Rahmon,” indicates he never
actually did with Angel. And he identifies with Angel’s
loss in a way, through the vehicle of Alonna. Although she
was only his sister, he felt the same sense of
responsibility. However it is notable that despite this,
he, with Fred, hunted for Wes. Even after he was convinced
Wes did really kidnap the child, for whatever reasons, he
was desperate to preserve his life. And that was out of
pure friendship, not whether or not Wes deserved to
live.
Fred. Well, It was a bit shocking that it was she who
leveled the devastating blow at Wes. (One that I suspect
hurt him far more than Angel’s attack.) But we’ve been
given frequent reminders, like in “Billy,” that there’s a
harder core to her than the face she usually chooses to
present. One that I think has been coming out more since
Cordy’s absence. Although she never expressed a romantic
interest in Wes, and seemed almost, though not entirely,
unaware of his in her, she does seem to take their
friendship quite seriously. We’ve seen them working quite
closely with the research. And her knowledge of the diaries
(holdovers from the Watcher’s journals) indicates a greater
awareness of his habits than the others expressed. Neither
can I forget her desperation to find and exonerate him and
the ferociousness of her attack on Justine. She may not
have been in love with him, but she seems to have loved him
all the same. “Wes wouldn’t have left . . . . Not without
telling me.” But he did. And although she remains his most
tireless advocate, she seems to be taking this as a very
personal betrayal of their friendship.
So all, in all, I have been enjoying the denouement of what
was so carefully and subtly set up before. And I, for one,
am very interested in tonight’s semi-final installment.
[>
Wow -- SingedCat, 13:46:34 05/20/02 Mon
That was one of the most beautifully written and well-
thought out commentaries on recent developments I've seen
yet (though to be fair I don't read the *whole*
board...;))
And it was great to read such a terrific commentary from
somebody who has had a free mind to approach the subject.
(Not to mention someone so sympathetic to Wes and non-
judgemental to the rest of the crowd!) I too, await with
happy anticipation what will happen next. But I have
expressed my reasons elsewhere why I continue to hold out
for Wes. In brief, he has always followed his own
conscioience, pissing off the Scoobie Gang and the
Watcher's Council in the past. Each time has resulted in
rejection by the group, and each rejection has led not to
Angel's response of guilty brooding, but a very different
response of personal growth from devastating circumstances.
He might be destroyed, but I've seen him alone before-- I'll
wait and see what happens.
[>
Double Wow... -- Scroll, 14:43:47 05/20/02
Mon
You're on the money for practically everything. Even Cordy,
whom I admit I've had little patience for ever since her
demonisation, you've managed to exonorate beautifully. She
really has grown up. You're right in that every character
has acted *in* character this season, even though most of us
were surprised at Wes' hostile reaction to Gunn showing up
at his place in "The Price". It really makes perfect sense
in hindsight, and I can't wait to see the new Wesley that
will emerge from the rubble of this disaster. Maybe he'll go
back to being a rogue demon hunter, with the black leather
pants and kick-ass motorcycle we all adore. I know, or at
least strongly suspect, that ME will reconcile Wes with the
rest of Angel Investigations, but I want the group to really
*work* for a renewal of trust and friendship. I don't want
it to be easy for any of them. And I really want Cordy and
Wes to have a real fight and then make up (we haven't seen
the two of them together since before Cordy went on
vacation!)
[>
mazel tov, jm...& oh yeah: wow -- anom, 20:48:41
05/20/02 Mon
[>
Great analysis -- lulable, 20:51:13 05/20/02
Mon
Really nice, you've done a wonderful job at stepping back
and looking at the big picture.
I particularly agree with your comments on the "out-of-
character" debates. I think the fact that we may be
surprised or even shocked by a particular character's
actions speaks to the depth of these characters and the
risks that the writers are willing to take. After all, in
real life, people are not predictable, especially in times
of stress.
I love how Wesley's character commands so much interest and
discussion. It's remarkable that someone who gets a
relatively small fraction of screen time can invoke such
response. I suspect the writers have given AD such a juicy
part because they know he's really capable of carrying it
off.
Last of all thanks for making an "Angel" related post. I'm
trying to help keep such posts active by posting a reply -
I notice they tend to fall of the board quickly due to slow
reply rates.
[>
And for a change of pace: Whoa. -- yuri,
00:41:52 05/21/02 Tue
So beautiful.. I also agree with nearly everything, but the
only thing that I feel able to comment on at this late hour
is your mention of watching episodes untainted by the net,
and how this enhanced your enjoyment. This has been
something I've wrestled with for many months, because I
don't like the fact that when I watch an episode from the
first time I'm thinking "Oh, so-and-so would say this" or
"Ooh, I should remember this point so I can write it down,"
or "That totally supports so-and-so's parallel to [fill in
the blank]." I love being on this board and reading
all these amazing ideas and contributing to them myself, but
there's no doubt in my mind that in doing so I have
distanced myself from the more intense emotions I once felt
as I watched BtVS and AtS. There's no answer or anything to
this non-question, I just felt I needed to get it out.
[> [>
Re: And for a change of pace: Whoa. -- JM,
04:18:18 05/21/02 Tue
Thanks so much all of you. Got to catch a flight, but I'll
be back in a couple of days. Still weighing the season
finale. There's a lot of wow to go round on this board.
Yuri, caught myself doing that last night too.
What happens when
series end? -- A.C.S., 12:38:29 05/20/02 Mon
I've heard talk that there's going to be only one more
season of Buffy. Things aren't looking so good for Angel,
either. Anyway, even if cancellation doesn't happen now, we
know it's probably going to happen within the next few
years. So what happens to ATPOBTVS? Does analysis/discussion
continue? What will be the focus?
[>
Maybe we'll all finally go get lives -- vampire
hunter D, 13:02:47 05/20/02 Mon
[> [>
Never! We all know we'll just be watching the reruns
over and over again... -- Rob, 14:10:37 05/20/02
Mon
...just like we do now. ;o)
Rob
[> [> [>
We can hop into our protective Buffy bubble. They'll
never get us out. :o) -- JCC, 14:14:23 05/20/02
Mon
[>
They'll be movies and perhaps that dratted Dawn
spinoff -- Dochawk, 14:39:38 05/20/02 Mon
And Angel is guarenteed through year 5 remember, so at least
two more years of Angel. And I had hope of an 8th year,
until an interview this weekend with SMG said she was tired
of the tv grind and she needed a break.
[> [>
I'll take whatever Jossco (tm) can muster -- pr10n,
16:02:17 05/20/02 Mon
Don't forget there's the animated series, and Fray in comic
book form (for the nonce).
And interminable YA books for the blossoming Biffs and
Buffys in our Jr. High schools.
And lunch boxes.
[>
And whatever happened to the Animated Series? I think
that's still in the works as well -- Goji3, 16:48:41
05/20/02 Mon
[>
We stop taking our medications so we can be Normal
Again. -- Sophist, 16:57:54 05/20/02 Mon
[> [>
good one =) -- shul, 18:18:27 05/20/02 Mon
[>
I find a real job with something else to do all
day? -- dream of the consortium, 07:06:24 05/21/02
Tue
S.J. Gould dead
at age 60 -- matching mole, 13:00:17 05/20/02 Mon
Just came across this on Yahoo while avoiding work. Gould
was diagnosed with cancer years ago which I understood to be
in remission but I guess not unless it was a second and
unrelated malignancy. Happily he lived long enough to see
the culmination of his life's work published.
[>
That is so sad. Thank you for letting us know. --
Sophist, 13:44:55 05/20/02 Mon
I guess the recent publication of his last 2 books had a
strong motivation. I'll miss him.
[>
Yes, thank you, matching mole. What a loss for the
world. -- Ixchel, 15:08:43 05/20/02 Mon
[>
Re: S.J. Gould dead at age 60 -- Copper,
18:41:02 05/20/02 Mon
Yes, it is sad. I didn't agree with him on some important
issues related to human evolution, but he was a major figure
in the field and will be missed.
[>
Going to take a while to sink in... -- Darby,
21:57:34 05/20/02 Mon
No wonder no one was really editing him these last couple of
years! But at his best, few could spin such interesting
stories about tricky subjects.
"Classic" CJL: Spike and the Whedonverse -
- cjl, 13:17:40 05/20/02 Mon
[For the intolerable stretch between Monday afternoon and
showtime.]
Ladies and gentlemen of the ATP board...my first post.
Three months ago, I stopped lurking on the BC&S board and
started putting my money where my mouth is. (I never
transferred this over to ATP, because I didn't KNOW about
ATP.) Looking back on it now, I think it has a charming
simplicity, compared to some of my later, more obsessively
detailed posts. I've also changed my mind about some
things. (But we'll deal with that in the postscript.)
And now, let's take the Wayback Machine to early
February...
_________________________________________________
I’ve been following the debate about our favorite bleached
blonde vamp for a while now, watching with a mixture of
amusement, fascination and amazement as the flaming posts
fly back and forth across cyberspace. "His love for Buffy
has completely changed him," say the Redemptionistas, "and
he’s evolved past the whole demonic bloodsucker phase."
"He’s got the chip in his head," say the Condemnistas, "and
once it’s out, Spike goes back to his regular diet--Happy
Meals on Legs." Point: "He was SO going to bite that girl
in the alley!" Counterpoint: "He spent five minutes working
himself up into a frenzy and he STILL wouldn’t have bit that
girl!" Down to basics: "He’s a hero!" "Hero?! He’s a
soulless monster!"
("He’s a floor wax!" "He’s a dessert topping!")
First of all, before I stick my head in the hellpit that is
"R" vs. "C" warfare, I want to say that I agree with a lot
of points on both sides of the debate, and I like the sheer
passion of the debate (even if it gets out of hand every
once in a while). Joss always says he wants BtVS to provoke
strong feelings, to get people involved on a visceral level,
because he’s writing about the joys and traumas--the rites
of passage--common to everyone. (That’s why I’m here too.)
But maybe we all can achieve a bit more clarity if we step
back and explore some of the terms we’re using in the debate
and examine where all the characters--including Spike--fit
into the big picture of the Whedonverse.
IN THE BEGINNING, there was Joss. And Joss looked down
upon his blank computer screen and conjured the forces
behind the conflict in his realm. Many people have noted
that even though BtVS uses the standard Christian vampire
paraphernalia (crosses, holy water, etc.), the Whedonverse
isn’t strictly a Christian conception; there is little
doubt, however, that Joss created a dualistic universe. On
one side, you have the Powers That Be, and all their various
agents; on the other side, you have The Old Ones and all
their minions. The conflict between these forces has been
going on since the beginning of time, and it’ll rage on
centuries after Buffy has died. (If we’re accepting "Fray"
as canon, that is.)
It’s tempting to call the Powers That Be the good guys and
the Old Ones eeeeeeeeeeevil, but that’s too easy, and maybe
a bit too much of a simplification. I prefer to think of
them as two forces with opposing viewpoints on how the
universe should be run. The Powers That Be are big fans of
Order, the preservation of life, rationalism and Free Will.
The Old Ones and those who followed their way on Earth are
Agents of Chaos, entropy (hint), and Primal Instinct.
[Yeah, I know, the Master was a charming rogue, and for an
agent of Chaos, he seemed to be a stickler for tradition,
founding the Order of Aurelius and all. Still, even though
he had a sneaking respect for human civilization, in "The
Wish," we found out his idea of the zenith of human culture
was the abattoir. ("Excuse me, did you say ‘knives’?"
"Rotating knives, yes.")]
Neither side has been able to win the battle for a very good
reason: if there wasn’t a balance between Chaos and Order,
the Universe couldn’t function. (Respecting the balance of
nature is a major tenet of Wicca, and yes, this does relate
to the treatment of witchcraft on BtVS and Willow’s current
problems with same. [I eventually covered this topic in my
second major post, "The Trouble with Willow."])
Humanity is obviously the major instrument of the Powers
That Be in the Whedonverse. Human beings have souls (Joss’
famous "moral compass"), and when they’re in proper working
order, people have built wonderful civilizations, and
dedicated themselves to improving the quality of life for
everyone. In order to give humanity room to grow, the
Powers somehow managed to chase the Old Ones off the planet.
But things are never easy in a Joss Whedon universe; the
last demon out forgot to turn off the lights, and bit a
passing human instead. Presto--the first vampire.
So the conflict continues. In order to battle the new
enemy, The Powers have called upon Slayers, Champions
(welcome, Cordy!), Seers, and Mystics, all dedicated to
protecting the human race from the vampires and half-breed
demons who feed upon and ravage the populace. And in their
hiding place in a demon dimension shimmering just beneath
the Hellmouth, the Old Ones are waiting for their progeny to
wipe out the human pestilence and welcome them back to
Earth.
Within this Yin and Yang dynamic, there are naturally going
to be gray areas, exceptions to the rule. (Wouldn’t be an
interesting cosmos without them.) You have demons who are
relatively harmless (like Merl and Clem), vampires who have
no interest in killing humans (the "vampwhores" in BtVS
season 5) and demons who work directly for the Powers
themselves (Whistler and Doyle). On the other side of the
equation, just because you have a soul doesn’t mean you
can’t work against the grand design of the Powers That Be.
You have humans who, blessed with that nifty moral compass,
nevertheless commit acts of violence and sadism that would
make a vampire blush. (Hello, Warren.)
Of course, the biggest exception to the rule, the vamp who
broke the mold, is Angel. The Powers and our Lord Joss have
spent a great deal of time and effort guiding his path up
from Chaos, prepping him for his pivotal and unique role in
the upcoming End of Days we’ve been waiting for since BtVS
season 1.
So where does that leave our boy Spike? (Well, I had to get
to it sooner or later.) At this point, Spike is almost the
definition of that freakin’ gray area, and it’s almost
impossible to tell which way he’s going to go. IMHO, Joss
and ME have three options:
1) He gets the chip out, and—hiding his three-alleyway-
victim-a-day habit from Buffy--he goes back to snacking on
the populace. [Verdict: lame, and a waste of two years of
slow, steady character development and brilliant
performances by James Marsters.]
2) He gets the chip out, and--transformed by his love for
Buffy--he reforms completely and starts on his path to true
redemption. [Verdict: always possible, but I don’t think
Joss is going to go there. Over the course of both series,
Joss and ME have hammered us over the head with Angel’s
uniqueness, and sending Spike down the same path has a "been
there, done that" sort of quality. In Tabula Rasa, when
"Randy" declared himself a vampire with a soul, destined to
fight his own kind for the cause of righteousness, "Joan"
frowned and commented, "How lame is that?" No, Spike’s
destiny is going to be very different from Angel’s….
3) With or without the chip, Spike will pretty much stay as
he is: trapped between two worlds. And for Spike (and
Buffy), it’s gonna suck (in a "they’ll be miserable" kind of
way).
NOW we’re talking. This is Joss "King of Pain" Whedon,
after all, and we’ve got the set-up for a classic, tragic
love story. Let’s face it: even though he’s made a
tremendous amount of progress, and has sacrificed almost all
of his old ways for the love of Buffy, Spike is still a
vampire. He just doesn’t have the moral compass humans do,
and that’s always going to get in the way of happiness with
Buffy. Over the past three weeks, we’ve seen him joke about
eating decorators and maybe taking a bite out of Buffy’s
blind date; when Buffy confronted him about dumping
Katrina’s body in the river, Spike was simply incapable of
understanding what he did wrong. Please note: I’m not
saying Spike did the wrong thing in that last situation.
Hell, if I were in Spike’s shoes, I would have dumped the
body myself. (I would have done a better job of it….) But
that’s not the point. Spike is a vampire, an agent of the
Old Ones, and he sees the universe in an entirely different
way than Buffy does.
Marti Noxon supposedly said Season Six and the Buffy/Spike
pairing is about the kind of relationship you fall into in
your twenties—great sex, but complete personal
incompatibility. If that quote is accurate, I think she’s
reducing the B/S story line to its most banal aspect. I
think of Buffy/Spike as Heathcliff and Catherine, Tristan
and Isolde, or Romeo and Juliet—except instead of belonging
to rival families, Buffy and Spike are on opposite sides of
a battle to control reality itself. You can see them
working like crazy trying to create a middle ground--but to
do it, they’ll practically have to flip the cosmos over on
its side. (The crypt door scene in "Dead Things" is
perfectly emblematic of their relationship.)
Spike has spent most of Season Six telling Buffy she’s a
creature of darkness, and she can make a new life with him
behind the crypt door. But Spike himself knows all too well
that Buffy’s real strength is her love for her friends and
family, and removing those people from her life would remove
the aspect of her personality he loves and respects the
most. I can see Season 7 as the mirror image of Season 6:
Spike has given up on luring Buffy to the dark side; they
get back on the steady footing of friendship they had by the
end of Season 5; and now, emotionally stronger and more
confident about her feelings, Buffy tries to bring Spike
into the light. But it’s not going to work. Spike is what
he is; Buffy is what she is. And if the literary precedents
hold, it’s simply not going to end well. It’ll be
heartbreaking, folks; I predict even the most rabid B/S
hater is going to watch that final episode and sniffle,
"Damn...they really did love each other. That poor SOB."
__________________________________________________________
As I said in the preface, I've changed my mind about Spike's
eventual fate. I no longer believe Spike will die the
tragic, anti-hero's death. The way the plotline is running,
the way they've set things up for season 7 and beyond, it
seems to me that Spike has a special destiny, unique yet
separate from Angel's--unchipped, unsouled, unredeemed, but
turning away from the lure of chaos.
Spike has always been different from his brethren. From the
beginning, despite his bloodlust and destructive power, he
possessed a unique appreciation for beauty denied to other
vampires. His caring for Drusilla and his appreciation of
the simple pleasures of the world in Season 2 indicated a
savoring of life and the fruits of order--feelings
supposedly impossible for a demon. In season 4, the chip
helped curtail his bloodlust; in season 5, his love of Buffy
opened up a new appreciation of humanity. Now, Spike is
poised to take the Great Leap: he will learn to see the
beauty, not only in Buffy, but in all of creation.
He will help Buffy and Dawn (his other half and his
surrogate child) fight the final battle, and he'll leave to
find his own destiny. No apologies, no redemption, no touch
of the divine. Yes, it technically violates the "soul
canon," and for that reason alone, Joss might not do it.
But that's the Spike I want to see at the end:
The ultimate existentialist hero.
[>
Welcome among us, the Humanitas cjl ;) (very good
post) -- Ete, 15:26:50 05/20/02 Mon
[>
This plotline seems the most interesting/satisfying to
me as well. -- Traveler, 15:38:57 05/20/02 Mon
[>
Pull up a chair, have some tea and stay awhile... -
- Liq, 20:58:58 05/20/02 Mon
[>
Thanks, I've been enjoying your posts --
verdantheart, 06:44:38 05/21/02 Tue
[>
Great post! -- redcat, 09:44:18 05/21/02 Tue
"Now, Spike is poised to take the Great Leap....it
technically violates the "soul canon," and for that reason
alone, Joss might not do it."
OR, for that reason alone, Joss might just DO it. I get the
feeling he's a bit irascible even on his good days.
And just wanted to say that I really enjoy your posts, here
and elsewhere. I like the way your mind thinks through
things.
I think because the character of Spike was not originally
intended as a full member of the journey-party, he allows
the shadow-self of the creative artist who lives in Joss's
inner mind to come out and play, to go where neither Joss's
intention or his grand design for the story's internal
structure would suggest a major character should go. Such
freedom can be dangerous. Luckily, Joss's instincts are
very, very good and he pays close attention to them, so
mostly, the character has been quite interesting to watch as
he develops. Like you, earlier in the season, I would have
supported the idea that Spike would either die the
sterotypically tragic anti-hero's death, or commit
sacrifical suicide, probably to save Dawn and possibly
without B ever knowing. But now, I'm not so sure. I do not
think that we have even begun to see the extent of Spike's
"test" at the nadir of his journey; nor do I think we are
likely to witness his apotheosis anytime soon. His, like
Joss's own shadow-self's, is a long and tortured journey.
At least I hope so...
Thanks again for the great posts!
rc
Forgiveness
(spoilers, long, sorry ) -- Kitt,
15:25:53 05/20/02 Mon
With the season finales of AtS and BtVS tonight and
tomorrow, I guess I can’t put this off any longer. For
several weeks, there’s been a lot of back and forth on the
boards about how what character A (Holtz, Spike, Angel,
Willow, Wesley) has done that is “unforgivable”, and been
musing on the ‘softer side’, if you will. Now, I’m not
nearly as adept at this sort of thing as some, and had hoped
that someone with more eloquence and a higher TTMQ would
take up the topic, but seeing as that hasn’t happened, bear
with me and here goes:
First off, I want to point out that while all of us are
nattering on about how horrible these acts are, how
UNforgiveable they are, our discussions are in every sense
of the word, irrelevant. On one level, they’re irrelevant
because it’s just a show, and none of this has really
happened. My preferred level of irrelevancy is the one that
applies not only to us, but to Xander, Giles, and the rest
of the gang when it comes to ‘the scene’ in SR and weather
or not Buffy should forgive Spike for the attack. Spike
didn’t attack us; we are not the ones threatened, our bodies
were not nearly violated. If Buffy finds it in her heart to
forgive him, that is HER choice (ok, actually it’s Joss’s,
ya’ll know what I mean). For anyone else to try and make
that decision for her would be offensive: she’s 21, in her
right mind, and entitled to make her own decisions about
life as well as live with the consequences. We may not
approve; her choices may not be those we would make; we may
even think they are foolish; none of that changes the fact
that they are HER choices, and it’s her life. Unless you’re
going to take the paternalistic “I know what’s best” stance,
you can only try and convince her of your opinion, and when
she’s made her decision, you can only either accept it and
move on or reject it, and by implication, Buffy. My mother
still tries to make decisions for me, and when I’m in
Orlando she still treats me like I’m 12; that’s why I live
in Alabama. I don’t like other people trying to make my
decisions for me, and I doubt Buffy wants that now either.
I KNOW Angel doesn’t want someone else to decide weather
he’ll forgive Wes, or Holtz forgive Angel, or… it goes on
and on. These are decisions that can ONLY be made by the
individuals directly involved.
Which kind of segways into my next point; forgiveness isn’t
just about the person who did wrong. It’s also about the
person who was wronged. Giles was right: (edited for length
and emphasis)
Giles: Well, he's obviously reliving the night of the Sadie
Hawkins Dance when he killed Ms. Newman. It-it's-it's common
enough for a spirit to do this, to... recreate a, a
tragedy... He's, he's trying to... resolve whatever issues
are keeping him in limbo. W-w-what exactly those are, I'm
not...
Buffy: (interrupts) He wants forgiveness.
Giles: Yes. I imagine he does. But when James possesses
people, they act out exactly what happened that night. So
he's experiencing a form of purgatory instead. I mean, he's,
he's doomed to, to kill his Ms. Newman over and over and
over again, and... forgiveness is impossible.
Buffy: Good. He doesn't deserve it.
Giles: To forgive is an act of compassion, Buffy. It's,
it's not done because people deserve it. It's done because
they need it.
Not only that – in forgiving someone, we also allow
ourselves to heal from the wounds we have suffered. If we do
not forgive someone else, how can we ever get past our own
pain? We can lock it up, ignore it, try to make it go away,
but until we can find it in our hearts to forgive, the hurt
remains. Not only is James trapped in the purgatory of
guilt he has made for himself; so is Grace. When she died,
she never had the chance to forgive him for shooting her,
and in the endless loop she and James played out over the
years, no one ever survived the shooting so that she had the
chance to forgive – until Angelus:
Buffy looks over into a mirror, and James looks back at her.
Her eyes are full of tears as she looks at him. He looks
down at the gun in his hand. The camera pans down from
Buffy's face to the gun in her hand. She raises it slowly,
but a hand takes it and pushes it back down. She turns and
finds herself face to face with Angelus.
Buffy: Grace!
Angelus: Don't do this.
Buffy: But-but I killed you.
Angelus: It was an accident. It wasn't your fault.
Buffy: Oh, it *is* my fault. How could I...
Angelus: Shhh. I'm the one who should be sorry, James. You
thought I stopped loving you. But I never did. I loved you
with my last breath.
Buffy lets out a few sobs.
Angelus: Shhh... No more tears.
Cut to 1955. Grace and James kiss. Cut to 1998. Angelus and
Buffy kiss. They hold each other tightly as they continue
kissing for a long time. Above them in the ceiling a bright
light appears, and the **spirits of Grace and James** leave
this world for the next.
In her forgiveness lies the release for BOTH their tortured
souls. Giles willingness to forgive James is irrelevant.
Grace’s innocence does not save her. It is her capacity and
willingness to forgive the young man she had fallen in love
with that at long last saves them both.
{Thanks to Psyche’s transcripts for the quotes… and ya’ll
might want to go and read the last 2 acts of that episode
[season 2, ‘I Only Have Eyes for You’]; remind you of
another couple that’s broken up recently?}
[>
Re: Forgiveness (spoilers, long, sorry ) --
clg0107, 15:40:33 05/20/02 Mon
Hiya, Kitt! Thanks for the thoughtful...um, thoughts.
Fox actually just showed IOHEFY only 2-3 weeks ago (the
first time I've seen it), and I was struck by the parallels,
and the serdendipitous timing of it's airing.
Your points about the characters' individual prerogatives to
forgive or not are well made. However, you do point out
that it behooves them as individuals to find it within
themselves to do so, so that everyone can heal and move on.
Buffy learned this first hand in IOHEFY. She doesn't always
remember it, but it is a lesson that she learned.
But then, since the theme of the season has been about
growing up, I believe that the writers will bring them all,
in one way or another, to a place where they have the
maturity and grace to forgive. After all, the season has
been about all of them doing things which warrant forgiving.
From a creative perspective, there's a reason that they are
all in such circumstances. They may not all respond to them
the same way or on the same timeframe, but sooner or later,
I suspect they all will find their way to forgiving those
who have hurt them.
~clg0107
[>
Re: Forgiveness (spoilers, long, sorry ) --
lulabel, 18:08:14 05/20/02 Mon
Very eloquent and convincing. I generally agree with your
point that the question of forgiveness belongs only to the
wrondoer and the wronged. However, I do think that those
who love and care about the concerned parties do have a
little say in the matter - after all, you hurt me when you
hurt the ones I love.
And of course, it is completely irrelevant what all of us
(the audience) thinks. However, that's not going to stop
any of us from expounding at length! (I mean, where would be
the fun in that?)
[> [>
A short spec I did on Willow & forgiveness in S7
(contains implied spoiler for finale) -- belle,
21:13:33 05/20/02 Mon
How is Willow to be forgiven? She's crossed a huge line
with the torture/murder of Warren, and from the looks of the
promo, goes on to do quite a lot more before she's through.
So, what's in store for her character?
On the one hand, she likely won't be the BB anymore (first
of all, the finale looks like a climax that'd be pretty hard
to follow for a whole season). On the other...she
shouldn't, and probably won't, get out of jail free. (DF
said as much in an interview). So, then, what? Obviously
not literal jail. So I'm thinking two things.
First, social punishment: Willow's frozen out of the SG.
Will they ever trust her to help them again? Will Buffy
even speak to her? And Dawn? I think Dawn could have some
fairly harsh things to say to Willow, if anything. Being
cast out doesn't seem like much compared with skinning
someone alive, but for someone as fundamentally insecure as
Willow, it would be her worst nightmare come true
(literally: see Restless).
Second: mystical karma retribution for magical crime.
In the BTVS world, the simplest way to accomplish would be a
good old fashioned hauntin'.
I *don't* think she should bring Warren (or anyone) back to
life. But what if his ghost became an unwelcome visitor to
her? The visuals alone could be highly upsetting (not to
mention ruin a few meals). And the conversations could be
juicy:
(WILLOW, looking drained and sad, re-enters her single dorm
or apartment. Flicks on a light and there he is, making
himself at home on the couch or ceiling).
WARREN: Rough day?
WILLOW: Get out. (Attempting to summon up a faint memory
of magics past) Begone.
A feeble flicker of green energy licks out in GHOST-WARREN's
general direction and dissipates. The only result is that
WILLOW is hit with a wave of faintness and nausea. WARREN
clucks sympathetically.
WARREN: Losing sucks, doesn't it? Especially when you
think about everything you had? It's enough to make you
sick.
(WILLOW turns and sees that WARREN's become SKINLESS again,
and this time does disappear out of screen, retching. When
she comes back up, he's back to normal again).
WARREN: But hey. I'm sure they'll like you again. I mean,
you *said* you were *sorry*, right? What's an attempted
apocalypse between friends?
WILLOW: You have no idea what sorry means.
WARREN: Oh, right, I forgot. Nobody can possibly feel your
pain. I sure can't, anyway. You showed me that. I'm a
heartless murderer--
WILLOW (Overlap) That's right.
WARREN: Plus now, there's the whole dead thing.
WILLOW: (Pained, now) There isn't enough sorry in the
universe to begin to cover what I-- I know this. And if I
have to spend the rest of my life trying to make up to the
people I love--loved--love-then I will. But, you? I'm not
sorry. You were a selfish, worthless waste of life and now
you're a selfish, worthless waste of ectoplasm. Now go back
to hell where you belong.
(WARREN shrugs and smiles)
WARREN: See you later...
And finally:
Tara. Possibly a benevolent spirit guide, as many have
speculated; but given the Buffyverse, more likely another
plain old ghost, I'm thinking. For maximum angst, she could
be lost--able to communicate with Willow but literally
unable to recognize her (which would be a nice metaphor for
Willow's character change).
Maybe her (partial) redemption could be finding some way to
provide closure for both spirits--without magic or (much)
help from her friends.
[> [> [>
Gonna be hard for Buffy to shut her out ... -- Earl Allison,
03:30:13 05/21/02 Tue
Social ostracization is an interesting idea, but ultimately
a BAD one.
After all, splitting up and not TALKING is what made Season
Six the mess it was -- to repeat that error, by punishment
or accident, would only recreate the problem.
And if the Scoobies DO shun Willow, they become (some of
them) massive hypocrites.
Buffy bailed on the team, hurt them more than once, during
"When She Was Bad," by abandoning them at the close of
Season Two (how much guilt would there have been had one of
the Scoobies DIED trying to carry on while she ran away?),
by becoming self-absorbed in most of Season Four, and even
by spending more time with Faith than her other friends in
mid-Season Three.
I don't mean to drag Buffy down to make Willow look good
(especially given my stance on people doing it to others to
make Spike look good), but the social punishment idea, while
a good one in concept, just would fall flat given what has
gone before -- and been forgiven.
Take it and run.
Angel season
finale -- Ronia, 19:08:27 05/20/02 Mon
A round of applause. I admit I have been dissappointed with
Angel for the most part, but tonight...has changed all that.
Only a few minutes ago I watched a finale that had me
internaly shouting NO and YES at the same time. Can't go
into depth now, the wounds are too fresh, too much to
absorb, wish I could have taped it. So is CC signed on for
next season, or was this her goodbye? Any thoughts,
comments? In terms of revenge it was perfection. Did they
all forget that Connor/Stephen is DARLA's son too? How
could they with those eyes staring out at them. Everything
about him tonight WAS Darla. He should have told him what
he promised Darla he would. Bravo to the cast, and
especially to the newcommer. May he and "Angel" have a
long, long time to sort things out. Years even.
[>
Re: Angel season finale -- Ronia...Forgot to write
SPOILER, 19:10:08 05/20/02 Mon
[>
Disappointed (Spoilers, Angel finale) -- Rahael,
20:31:12 05/20/02 Mon
Wesley/Lilah scenes - Magnificent!!! loved it.
Connor - incredibly devious, cunning and Dumasian. Liked
it.
Angel - poor old Angel. Love called him to a cliff top and
he got thrown off it into the depths of the Ocean while
Cordelia gets to ascend to the heavens.
Cordelia - talk about OOC. She loves Angel but knows it's
right that she leaves?? after everything that's happened
with Connor? Darla? Buffy? Why is that so right? What kind
of message is AtS putting out? That love is a mere nothing
compared to ascending to another plane? Isn't it love which
should raise us? In this finale, we had love imprisoning a
father in an iron box, love killing a man to frame someone
else, love leading to treachery. And Cordelia, in a space of
one show sends Groo on his way, realises she loves Angel,
and then decides that her destiny is more important. The old
Cordelia would have told Skip to take a running jump of a
cliff.
[> [>
Is it just me? (Spoilers) -- VampRiley, 20:50:38
05/20/02 Mon
Or does Groo seem to be growing eyebrows the longer he's in
earth's dimension?
What's Dumasian?
VR
[> [> [>
Dumasian -- Dochawk, 23:29:33 05/20/02 Mon
Alexander Dumas wrote the greatest vengeance novel of all
time, The Count of Monte Cristo. In the book, Edmund Dantes
is framed for a murder and escapes from prison becoming
fantastically wealthy. The rest of the book is Dantes,
acting as the Count of Monte Cristo, bringing about
vengeance upon the people who framed him.
[> [> [> [>
Thanks. -- VR, 06:28:19 05/21/02 Tue
[> [>
I wasn't disappointed (Spoilers, Angel finale) --
alcibiades, 20:50:54 05/20/02 Mon
Rahael wrote:
"Cordelia - talk about OOC. She loves Angel but knows it's
right that she leaves?? after everything that's happened
with Connor? Darla? Buffy? Why is that so right? What kind
of message is AtS putting out? That love is a mere nothing
compared to ascending to another plane?"
Since they are being so Platonic, technically it is the good
which inspires love of doing good. Eros to do more good is
acquired while doing good.
But I don't think Cordy has been so good lately. Her eros
seems entirely directed at Angel and not so much at doing
good.
Rahael again:
"Isn't it love which should raise us? In this finale, we had
love imprisoning a father in an iron box, love killing a man
to frame someone else, love leading to treachery. And
Cordelia, in a space of one show sends Groo on his way,
realises she loves Angel, and then decides that her destiny
is more important. The old Cordelia would have told Skip to
take a running jump of a cliff."
I think that is going to end up being the point. Cordelia
has become totally self-involved so that either her
ascension involves ceasing to care for the people she loves
-- which is pretty horrific fate for a human with a capacity
to love, or it means that she will continue to care for them
and won't be able to do anything about it.
It is actually perfect punishment for what she did to Wesley
-- here Wesley is completely desperate for contact, for
help, for anything, even to be yelled at by friends who care
about him and she is too self-involved with Angel to do
anything for him.
By way of punishment now Angel, the one being she cares for,
desperately needs her help and she won't be able to
intervene for him.
It's extrememly chiastic and very mean-minded of Joss and
co.
Point two which is also chiastic. Cordy kept on barging in
on Connor-Angel bonding time -- first last week to rescue
Justine and then this week, so she could have a romantic
rendezvous with Angel which she finally realized what she
was feeling -- uh it waited this long, couldn't she give
Angel and son a night together without bargining into their
space? And her barging in sets up the perfect opportunity
for Connor to exercise his plan.
So now, when Cordelia really needs to intervene between
Angel and Connor, she won't be able to.
So I think either Cordy failed the test and should have
chosen Angel and to stay on this plane, or she'll flunk out
of higher demon school once she gets there and the shock of
what is going on below sets in.
Given how she has acted lately, arrival of Skip or not,
there is extreme hubris in doing what she did.
And BTW, does anyone think Skip might have an agenda?
[> [> [>
I wasn't disappointed (Spoilers, Angel finale) --
Rahael, 20:54:58 05/20/02 Mon
Yes, Skip did look rather sly, didn't he?
Hope you're right.
[> [> [> [>
Re: I wasn't disappointed (Spoilers, Angel finale)
-- cjl, 21:13:39 05/20/02 Mon
I tend to agree.
One of two things happened with Cordelia's departure:
1) Charisma is leaving the show for whatever reason, and
they decided to give her a BIG sendoff. Frankly, I don't
believe this for a minute; but then again, this is
Hollywood, and stars have left their meal ticket before.
(See: David Caruso, McLean Stevenson, David Duchovny.) If
Charisma really is leaving, we have witnessed the ascension
of St. Cordelia, and in my opinion, the annihilation of her
character in heavenly light.
2) The more likely option: after a couple of hundred years
(in extra-dimensional time) fighting battles for the Powers
that Be, Cordelia is tossed back to Earth (shades of Buffy's
resurrection), because her soul simply was not ready to live
on the higher planes of existence. However, Cordelia will
pay a price for her return to Earth: the demonic force
inside her will eventually be corrupted by the mortal plane,
screwing up her potential relationship with Angel and maybe
bringing on Dark!Cordy. (And no, I don't mean the Cordy
from BtVS season 1.)
Speaking of the big guy--geez, lousy summer vacation for
Angel: an ocean cruise without the "cruise" part. Want to
bet Wesley, employed by W&H, will haul the box out and save
his undead butt? (The big question is: which version of
Angel will come out of the box? Three months down there is
a long time for a starving vampire, and sanity is very often
the first thing to go...)
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: I wasn't disappointed (Spoilers, Angel finale)
-- alcibiades, 21:39:39 05/20/02 Mon
"Speaking of the big guy--geez, lousy summer vacation for
Angel: an ocean cruise without the "cruise" part. Want to
bet Wesley, employed by W&H, will haul the box out and save
his undead butt?"
Yeah I was thinking exactly the same thing!!!
I'm pitying evil!Justine already once Connor realizes she
killed his father and totally played him about Angel. Boy
will he be pissed.
And I bet Angel is going to have to get Connor not to take
revenge on Justine. Heh. Which will karmically be his
repayment for Wesley saving his butt.
And yeah, Cordelia's ascension is a lot like buffy's
leap/fall into light. I wonder if she gets tossed out,
demands to leave or gets "descended" by someone on earth
messing about with bad magics.
About Connor -- I can tell why I'd be afraid of him -- but I
still don't get why the glow-in-the-dark white slugs from
Quortoth were afraid of him. Unless he thought of them as
lunch.
I love the kid, he's great -- but JM does a much better evil
look -- it's less bug eyed.
[> [> [> [> [> [>
Re: I wasn't disappointed (Spoilers, Angel finale)
-- mucifer, 05:42:04 05/21/02 Tue
I dont think Connor is supposed to be evil, just mislead.
Not to mention an over top angry teenager who doesnt
understand his dad and gives him hell.
[> [> [>
Re: I wasn't disappointed (Spoilers, Angel finale)
-- Simone, 21:46:30 05/20/02 Mon
I hope you're right too because, taken at face value, this
is too lame for words.
[> [> [>
I COMPLETELY agree. -- yuri, 23:03:52 05/20/02
Mon
Throughout her entire "should I, shouldn't I" scene Cordy's
face and vibe kept growing more and more self satisfied, and
I hardly think this is the attitude with which one can
ascentd to a "higher plane." Finally, when she makes her
decision and gets all floaty (which I hated, by the way, and
can only hope that that was the intended reaction) I kept
waiting, all the way up to that final sploosh bam of light,
for the earth to rumble or something and for Skip (or
perhaps some big rumbly voice) to say that whoops, she
actually failed the final test.
I think that there are two possibilities, both involving her
failure:
1. To "ascend" one must indeed transcend love for the
general good. Cordelia failed because, as alcibiades says
"Her eros seems entirely directed at Angel and not so much
at doing good," and it was just sort of wistful and self
rightous of her to think that she was this vessel of pure
good, doing good for the good of it, etc. Someone said a
while ago that when she accepted the offer to become a
demon, when she weathered the visions, it could have all
been seen as doing so for Angel, or at least in order for
Cordelia to feel good about herself.
2. It is not necessary to "transcend love" in order to
ascend, and indeed Cordelia failed because she denied her
love, her reason for good. She acted like she was more than
she was.. Pride, the perfect Cordeliaesque sin, which could
warrant her fall from grace...
but then... do we often see pride punished? I am asking
genuinely here, I am not good with remembering backstory,
unfortunately, but generally it seems to me that we've seen
Cordelia's pride and bluntnesss and self-confidence as
virtues. Hmmm.
Okay, I'm not gonna proof read or anything so sorry for
typpeoos. This is basically a reiteration of your ideas,
alcibiades, so thanks for those.
[> [> [> [>
Re: I COMPLETELY agree. -- Traveler, 00:12:17
05/21/02 Tue
"it seems to me that we've seen Cordelia's pride and
bluntnesss and self-confidence as virtues. Hmmm."
Yeah, it rather does seem that Cordy can do no wrong. Also,
she has been acting like a martyr for a while now. I'll be
glad to see that stop, either because she fails the test or
because she becomes all transcendental and goes away.
[> [> [>
Re: I wasn't disappointed (Spoilers, Angel finale)
-- shadowkat, 06:15:29 05/21/02 Tue
Oh I like your analysis and you just about saved that
whole scene of Cordy's ascension for me. What if it was
just a trick? After all Skip is a demon? Maybe she didn't
really ascend after all?
I completely agree with your assessment of Cordelia.
"Given how she has acted lately, arrival of Skip or not,
there is extreme hubris in doing what she did."
Since the very beginning of the show - Cordy's greatest
sin has been hubris. She's always been the princess who
believes she deserves the world on a silver platter. She
should have been the super-hero. She should be head
cheerleader. She should be the star. Everyone should love
her. Vanity and hubris. Silly me - I watched it literally,
forgetting that you shouldn't watch anything ME does
literally. You need to hunt the ironic metaphor.
This scene by the way reminded me a lot of Riley and Sam
ascending into the helicopter at the end of As You Were,
so I spent most of last night railing at ME for rewarding
undeserving, hubric (is that word?) characters, who get
everything handed to them - ie. the
jock and the cheerleader, while punishing poor geeky
characters who work so dang hard, like Xander and Willow
and Weseley and Fred. What happened to their empowerment
and outsider themes?? But if I look at it as ironic
and not literal...then well, hmmmm.
Thanks - now I may rewatch an episode I didn't like the
first round with new eyes.
One more thing - was anyone else disappointed that they
didn't give us more of Lilah and Wes? I mean we get tons
of Riley/Buffy in Where Wild Things ARe and Angel/Cody in
Sleep Tight and Fred/Gunn (none of which have a shred of
on-screen chemistry) but very little of the Lilah/Wes
who explode? Just Lilah getting out of his bed? Where's the
kiss? Someone needs to give ME a lesson on how to
take advantage of on-screen chemistry and what to do when
your actors don't have it. It's important in
a visual medium!!! (But maybe that's just me...;-) )
[> [> [> [>
"hubric (is that word?)" -- no, but you're
close, it's "hubristic" -- the vice-president
of the I Love Dictionaries Club, 10:06:46 05/21/02
Tue
[> [> [> [>
Wesley and Lilah (the same spoilers as the rest of this
thread) -- RichardX1,
15:07:58 05/21/02 Tue
but very little of the Lilah/Wes
who explode? Just Lilah getting out of his bed? Where's the
kiss? Someone needs to give ME a lesson on how to
take advantage of on-screen chemistry and what to do when
your actors don't have it. It's important in
a visual medium!!! (But maybe that's just me...;-) )
I think that was the point. There may be a connection
between Wesley and Lilah, but it isn't anything romantic. I
wouldn't be surprised if the entire... coupling took place
with very little that barely resembled romantic passion and
had more to do with animal instinct. Neither even had it in
them to even sarcastically ask, "Was it good for you?"
I probably failed to get my point across, but I said it how
I knew best.
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: Wesley and Lilah (the same spoilers as the rest of
this thread) -- West, 15:39:58 05/21/02 Tue
I'm with you, Kat! I absolutely love the exchanges between
Wes and Lilah, and I'd love to see it go farther. It's
seemed to be that Lilah has been being distanced from W&H
lately and towards AI, or more specifically, the grey area
between. With AI suddenly down to two people... Dare I dream
that Wes and Lilah will come in to fill the vaccuum? After
all, Angel is gone so there's no one to keep Wesley gone,
really. Granted, it would likely mean a much more somber
turn, but from the looks of things that's pretty inevitable
for next season.
[> [>
completely agree! (spoilers for season finale) --
Solitude1056, 20:54:43 05/20/02 Mon
It sure sounded like Cordy was telling Skip to take a hike.
Then cut to a different scene (keeping in mind that Skip's
last words in previous scene were something to the effect of
"running out of time" or "little time left") - and then we
cut back & she's going with the offer. Uh.
Waitagoshdarnminnitrightthere, folks. What was the whole
freakin' point, then, of having her go-demony so she could
continue to get the visions and continue to help the
helpless, etc, etc? We go through all that, with almost two
seasons of building, and now the PTB say, gee, you've grown
up so fast, time to graduate already? I just don't get where
the story is going on that one, since it just seems, at some
fundamental level, illogical in terms of these
supposed PTBs functionality. Or perhaps they're like
american democracy - at regular intervals someone new is in
charge with a completely different idea of how to fix
welfare and health care? Sheesh.
Groo leaving, though. *sniffle* I really did like him. And
Lorne leaving? That was out of the blue, although I wasn't
surprised that he wouldn't want to be around given that the
prodigal son has a thing for demon hating. I didn't see the
Wesley/Lilah bit coming, err, so to speak - but boy, Wes
sure has turned into a bit of a bastard. Yikes. And it did
seem that he managed to outdo even Lilah, to the point where
I think she was either hurt that he really could care less,
or hurt that he'd managed to one-up her. I'm putting my
money on the latter.
Guess now we've proof that AtS doesn't follow Joss' system -
of assuming each season could be the last, and therefore to
wrap things up... cause this is about as unwrapped as I'd
think it could possibly get. To hell with being spoiler-free
- quick, someone tell me what happens this fall!
puhhhhhllllleeeeese, eddie, tell me now! ;-)
[> [> [>
Don't forget! (spoilers for season finale) --
alcibiades, 21:02:44 05/20/02 Mon
Don't forget. Angel screwed up Skip's mission earlier this
year. Now maybe Skip is screwing up Angel's mission for his
own reasons.
[> [> [>
Cliff-hangers (SPOILERS for Tomorrow) -- Robert,
23:02:22 05/20/02 Mon
>> "Guess now we've proof that AtS doesn't follow Joss'
system - of assuming each season could be the last, and
therefore to wrap things up... cause this is about as
unwrapped as I'd think it could possibly get."
I've never before seen such a compelling cliff-hanger.
Regarding "Joss' system", I believe that Mr. Whedon received
ample notification that AtS would be renewed next season.
Given that, he need not assume that season 3 was the last,
thus freeing him to give us this fantastic cliff-hanger.
Normally he would not know until after production ended for
the season whether the show would be renewed or not.
As I see it, we have 3 major unresolved story lines,
1. The fate of angelic Cordelia.
2. The fate of Angel in his submarine sarcophagus.
3. The fate of Wesley and taste of forbidden
companionship.
and 2 minor story lines.
4. The fate of Lorne in his new Las Vegas gig.
5. The fate of Conner/Stephen as he tries to find a life
after vengeance.
Some might include the story line of Gunn and Fred's
courtship. However, I don't think there is any cliff-hanger
element here, except what they are going to do with Angel
Investigations, now that everyone else is gone or
missing.
[> [> [> [>
Re: Cliff-hangers (SPOILERS for Tomorrow) -- West,
04:45:51 05/21/02 Tue
It seems like you're all making the assumption that these
are situations that need to be resolved. The two major fates
of the episode, Cordy and Angel, were both set up to be
'final'. Cordy ascends, and thus goes to a higher plane
forever. Angel is trapped for eternity with the knowledge of
his betrayal and lost love, the ultimate tragedy (with love
being his hubris). These both seem like VERY final notes to
leave a season on, if you ask me. I think AtS was sticking
very close to Joss' usual style, though I'm pretty thankful
next season will be back anyways.
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: Cliff-hangers (SPOILERS for Tomorrow) --
Robert, 07:23:30 05/21/02 Tue
>> "These both seem like VERY final notes to leave a season
on, if you ask me."
They can be final notes only if the series ends here. We
know that The WB has renewed the show for season 4. Just as
I knew that Buffy would return for season 6 of BtVS, I know
that Angel will return at some point for season 4 of AtS. I
do agree that the finale may be the last time we see
Cordelia. If so, I will be sad, for she was my favorite
character is AtS.
>> "It seems like you're all making the assumption that
these are situations that need to be resolved."
Well, I don't know if you can make that assumption, as I
never actually said as much. Some story lines beg for
resolution more than others. It may be that we never see or
hear from Lorne or Cordelia again. However, if Angel is
gone from the show, then I don't think we have a show.
Regarding Angel's fate at the ocean bottom, you have got to
love Conner! He sure knows how to wreak vengeance. For me
the scene of Angel slowly sinking into darkness was
particularly poignant as I had just viewed the movie "AI" on
Sunday.
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: Cliff-hangers (SPOILERS for Tomorrow) --
Rattletrap, 09:13:10 05/21/02 Tue
Hmmmm, interesting point West. For almost any other
writers, what happened on Angel last night would constitute
a cliffhanger, but I could almost see Whedon and Greenwalt
deciding to permanently end a series with something exactly
that annoying and depressing.
[> [>
Re: Disappointed (Spoilers, Angel finale) --
celticross, 21:13:25 05/20/02 Mon
Why should it be a surprise, Rah? Love's never gotten
anyone anything in the Jossverse.
[> [>
Re: Disappointed (Spoilers, Angel finale) -- OnM,
22:53:14 05/20/02 Mon
I agree 100%. (OK, 98% -- Leave some space to move when I
find out I'm wrong. ;-)
I personally dislike these kind of extreme cliffhanger
endings, when it's months to go until things get resolved.
Last years Buffy was technically a cliffhanger, but yet Joss
left things so that you could also feel that there was an
'ending'. No such luck here.
*** The old Cordelia would have told Skip to take a
running jump off a cliff. ***
I think that the 'ascension' is going to turn out to be a
lesson or test of some kind for Cordy-- I agree that it's
very out of character for her. I think that the writers
intended a comparison with Angel making the 'right' decision
in telling Conner not to blame himself (because Angel is
right, he will eventually find out about Holtz's and
Justine's treachery, and then he will feel
guilty.
Cordy, on the other hand, made the 'wrong' decision. ME has
twisted the visual allegory so that the being who chose
correctly 'descends' into the cold and darkness, and the
being who choose incorrectly 'ascends' into apparent warmth
and light.
Would have liked to see this arc about 5 weeks ago, and then
spend the remaining weeks of the season resolving it.
[> [> [>
I'll second that (Spoilers, Angel finale) --
Traveler, 23:59:22 05/20/02 Mon
"Would have liked to see this arc about 5 weeks ago, and
then spend the remaining weeks of the season resolving
it."
Please, anything to replace the first half of the season,
which seemed incredibly unfocused and badly done to me.
[> [> [> [>
Thirded. -- yuri, 00:19:40 05/21/02 Tue
I don't know if I think the first half was unfocused and
badly done, but I do think that the plot twist and the
allegories are too, uh, big, or something, to end the season
with. They're more major season arc kind of material that
require immediate development, IMHO, not long months of
pondering. My kind of season finale is one that leaves me
emotional, satieted but contemplative. Buffy's have always
done that for me. I'm not one for the season finales that
make you scream OH MY GOD WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEn, that leave
you itching for the resolution. It's just annoying. It
doesn't allow for the good sort of pondering that can happen
during a hiatus. Leave the itching to Friends.
[> [> [>
Arch structure on Angel... -- Tillow, 06:28:50
05/21/02 Tue
I think Angel operates on a different structural basis than
Buffy. It's a little frustrating but it lends itself to more
action throughout the year.
Season 2 we had the whole Wolfram and Hart drives Angel
crazy culminating in him sleeping with Darla and his
epiphany. Then it was almost as if they wiped their hands
clean of it and started over with Pylea. But then this year
we saw the eventual culmination of the Darla storyline mid
season with her sacrifice and ultimate death. (And Pylea
reenters with Groo. )
Darla dies. In comes Connor. I think it is safe to say what
we just ended with won't clear up until Feb sweeps season 4.
And perhaps we will see the Pylea arch come back into play
around that time with Wolfram and Hart. Perhaps they will
pull in those priests to really go after Connor.
I like the multi-tiered structure on Angel. It's refreshing.
I equally like the long, slow build on Buffy but... it has
put me through the wringer a bit. It's good that the two
shows go their own way.
[> [> [>
Gumbling, sighing, contemplating (angel finale
spoilers) -- fresne, 14:03:17 05/21/02 Tue
Well, that was an "in-ter-est-ing" finale.
I agree, I'd have preferred this much earlier in the season.
Given these points time to develop. Not because I dislike
cliff-hangers. When Picard went Locutus of Borg, I was on
the edge of my seat. When Joe was shot on Highlander? Who
shot J.R? Who shot Mr. Burns? Okay, actually I hate them.
But in a can't wait, must know, on the edge of my seat sort
of way. My mind hums with possibilities.
I had problems here because they left me with perhaps not
the intended reaction. I think I my housemate's succinct
reaction summed it best, "Well, that sucked. How can I
possibly watch Angel next year?" Much was our commiseration
on that point. Heck, a friend of my called to say she knew
that I must be fuming. We complained some more. Nothing
quite like bashing a show that you wanted to like and heck
were enjoying the build up on. I feel like Angel was playing
Copland's Fanfare for the Common Man and stopped in mid
play.
However, I won't go there since I'm not really interested in
starting/finishing/middling a it was the best thing since
the invention of love, it was the worst thing since the
genesis of uni-cellualar green (not brown, not multi-
cellular) slime, no it was better than Cats, no it was worse
than An Ode to Spot…debate.
Although, it did make me realize that I've been more
traumatized by Star Trek than I knew. As soon as Skip
started talking about Cordelia the Higher Life form I went
nooooooooo, not Cordelia/Wesley STNG-ship. Ahem, anyway.
What's nice is that, well, in a does logging onto the
internet enrich or sully a watching experience, I've got to
say, if it weren't for this board, I don't know if Wesley
(the broody damaged one, not the higher life form one) love
would be enough. So, yeah, Cordelia made the wrong choice
based on hubris. I can dig it. I have to dig it. I'm
desperate to dig it.
Because that was a visually stunning end note. Now that I'm
a little distant from my immediate (stop pushing my fiction
squick buttons) emotions, that final image of Cordelia
disappearing into white, while Angel sank, not into black,
but into murk, was just incredible. Angel confined to a box.
Cordelia spreading out across the infinity of sky. The sheer
loneliness of Fred and Gunn in that huge hotel. The over
head shot of a couch centered on the sigil on the floor.
Connor/Stephen, wild lost boy, sailing away into the wine
dark spread of night with the woman who killed one father
and framed the other.
Angel/Holtz/?. Darla/Justine/Cordelia. What an interesting
set of parents. So, Cordelia went into air. Angel into
water. Holtz to fire. Darla dust to dust earth. Yep, Connor-
Stephen the boy with two names, has an interesting future
ahead of him. As Wesley noted, he contains an infinity of
possibilities.
And to end on a clothing note gripe/praise, seriously,
Cordelia is going to tell a man that she loves him, see
beautiful moonlit beach, in a somewhat shapeless flowy angel
white dress that doesn't accentuate her chest, waist, hips,
legs, hair, anything - not I think her first choice in
wardrobe. Maybe not high heels, but give the girl some
pride. Take a tip from Lorne, who as always, looked simply
fabulous and is hereby awarded my personal Fred Astaire
award for being stylin'.
[> [> [> [>
Excellent (and amusing) post, fresne. I agree. --
Ixchel, 16:49:53 05/21/02 Tue
I too believe this is some sort of test for Cordelia. A
test that appeals to her vanity and insecurity. To be told
you're so important and worthy must be a heady thing.
Especially since a great deal of her self-worth is based on
the visions. I really wonder about the PtB, as I get a
definite vibe of everyone (Angel, Cordelia) just being pawns
on the chess board to them.
Wonderful description of the ending. Yes, poor Gunn and
Fred. They reminded me a little of the SG at the end of S2
BtVS.
I'm with you on the dress too. Maybe it was a practical
costuming decision (to mask the harness, or whatever, used
for the "ascending" scene)? And, yes, Lorne looked great as
always.
Ixchel
[> [> [> [>
With you all the way -- matching mole, 07:11:29
05/22/02 Wed
You've summed up my feelings about the Angel finale very
well, including the TNG flashbacks.
And re the genesis of unicellular green slime - do you
consider having oxygen in the atmosphere a bad thing? You
must really dislike rust.
[> [>
Re: Disappointed (Spoilers, Angel finale) -- KKC, 04:31:17
05/21/02 Tue
Rahael writes:
"Cordelia - talk about OOC. She loves Angel but knows it's
right that she leaves?? after everything that's happened
with Connor? Darla? Buffy? Why is that so right? What kind
of message is AtS putting out? That love is a mere
nothing compared to ascending to another plane? Isn't it
love which should raise us?"
One of the questions that Christians raise about the
afterlife is whether or not they will be united with loved
ones or a spouse after death. One of the less satisfying
theories on this point is that in heaven, each soul's love
for the holy spirit is so overwhelming and consuming that it
supersedes any other love expressed in the mortal world.
Is it possible that part of Cordelia's feelings for Angel
also include a desire to honor his mission? Cordelia loves
the man, but respects and honors what he fights for. If the
mission is just and everything the PTB's have indicated is
true, then the BEST way Cordelia can express her love is to
continue the fight where she is needed, even if it means
they have to be apart.
Huh. Almost sounds like I was describing Buffy, not
Cordelia. :)
-KKC
[> [>
Bemused -- matching mole, 05:27:06 05/21/02
Tue
I don't know if I have anything new to offer. Taken at face
value Cordelia's ascension strikes me as the worst plot
development in BtVS/AtS history. I have twin biases at work
here. One is that I have always hated storylines in which
characters become higher beings. The other is my great love
for Cordelia the character from day 1 of BtVS right through
'Birthday'. The demonization seems to have resulted in her
becoming very boring.
However I have faith that Alcibiades interpretation is at
least somewhat correct and that all is not what it seems. I
do think that one of the problems is that in the second half
of the season everyone else's stories got pushed to the
sidelines by Angel's and Wesley's personal sagas.
And Lorne's departure is a sad note as well although he was
crimminally underused this season. Perhpas now he can make
a couple of interesting guest appearances next year.
[> [> [>
Wesley -- MaeveRigan, 06:14:14 05/21/02 Tue
"one of the problems is that in the second half of the
season everyone else's stories got pushed to the sidelines
by Angel's and Wesley's personal sagas."
And what about Wesley, eh? Even Wesley's personal saga has
been "pushed to the sidelines"--partly to effectively
dramatize his alienation from the rest of the AI crew, but
the minimized presence of Wesley on AtS this season seems
somewhat analogous to the disappearance of Giles on BtVS--a
vanishing voice of wisdom and a much-needed guide. Only
with Wesley, we also see the guide losing his own way.
Maybe it's also because every time Wes appears, AD's
intensity galvanizes the screen, but the tragedy of Wesley's
plotline is also part of it.
More Wesley, please.
[> [>
Further thoughts the day after (spoilers, Angel
finale) -- Rahael, 07:42:28 05/21/02 Tue
I have been thinking about Alcibiades' post. Perhaps
Cordelia did fail the test. At least I thought she did. I'm
still slightly puzzled, and waiting for spoilers to allay my
fears.
Angel's last words to Connor were about love. Love and
acceptance. He may have been punished, scheduled for a
lifetime of being alone in his broodiness, but we see Angel
reward vengeance with forgiveness, prejudice with faith and
love.
Cordelia on the other hand forgets about love, forgets about
the people who, basically, helped make her a better person
and goes off to a greater destiny. I'm left a bit cold.
Personally, I see nothing wrong with someone's love being
focussed on one person. Buffy's love was focussed on Dawn,
but it still served as a way for her to encompass the whole
world. Angel's love for a single person, rescued him. Is the
love of a single person which motivates us to a better life
somehow lesser than a disinterested and benign love for
mankind? Seems to me that the second follows from the
first.
I guess I'm more satisfied with Angel/Conner than with
Cordelia. Connor attacks his father, just as Angel attacked
his. A chip of the old block indeed.
Mostly, I just don't want Cordelia to float away. Come
back!! I watch Angel for you!!
[>
Plotholes -- Sophist, 09:56:28 05/21/02 Tue
No one yet has mentioned what were, to me, really annoying
plotholes:
1. Cordelia's choice of a meeting place. First of all,
nobody living in Los Angeles would choose that
location even for a private meeting. A coffeshop maybe. A
restaurant. A bar. But Pacific Coast Highway and Kanan Dume
road?! That's absurd. It's even more absurd for Cordy, who
despite her recent annoying "saintliness" is far too
materialistic to choose a spot with no creature comforts.
Also annoying to me (though you wouldn't know this unless
you lived in LA), the freeway Cordy was driving on was not
PCH. PCH does not have the protective dividers down the
middle. If she was on some other freeway, then she was
really late, because the meeting place is very far
off any other freeway (there actually are such places in
LA).
2. How was Connor able to have all the equipment ready for
Angel's entombment on such short notice? He had at most an
hour or two. There is no marina from which the boat could
even get there in the time allowed, assuming he had all the
equipment ready to go.
3. Dropping the phone off the cliff? Please.
The scenes with Wesley and Lilah were great. I hope
alcibiades is right about the rest; lame would be far too
weak a term if not. In any case, I wouldn't worry about
Angel. He's had lots of practice brooding by himself. One
short summer shouldn't be too much of a challenge.
[> [>
Re: Plotholes -- Arethusa, 10:06:18 05/21/02
Tue
1. You're right. If I were Cordy I would have chosen the
nearest nice little coffe shop. In a motel.
2. Justine. She had time in between burying Holtz and
Conor's arrival at the beach. I think.
3. Angel can't work the phone anyway.
4. Surely Angel isn't going to be under water all summer!
And remember what Spike said about vampires who don't eat-
walking skeletons. Plus, once he got out he would have a
blood-lust so severe that anyone rescuing him would be at
grave risk.
[> [>
Re: Plotholes -- leslie,
13:18:53 05/21/02 Tue
"Also annoying to me (though you wouldn't know this unless
you lived in LA), the freeway Cordy was driving on was not
PCH. PCH does not have the protective dividers down the
middle. If she was on some other freeway, then she was
really late, because the meeting place is very far off any
other freeway (there actually are such places in LA)."
Looked to me like the 101 westbound as it goes through
Hollywood; given that they all appear to live mostly
downtown, she was at least heading in the right
direction.
[> [> [>
That's what I thought too, but couldn't tell for sure.
She was at least 45 minutes late. -- Sophist,
13:45:53 05/21/02 Tue
[> [>
Re: Plotholes -- alcibiades, 14:32:28 05/21/02
Tue
Sophist wrote:
"Cordelia's choice of a meeting place. First of all, nobody
living in Los Angeles would choose that location even for a
private meeting. A coffeshop maybe. A restaurant. A bar. But
Pacific Coast Highway and Kanan Dume road?!"
A California dwelling friend of mine just pointed out that
the point seem to be that they met at Point Dume!
Ridiculous or not as a locale at which to meet, and as you
say, I wouldn't know, the name's the thing.
[> [> [>
I'm sure that's right. But to Angelenos, that is an old
and very stale joke. -- Sophist, 15:11:06 05/21/02
Tue
[>
It just did not do it for me -- Spike Lover,
10:35:52 05/21/02 Tue
I thought it was a cliff hanger. But overall, I keep
wondering who these new writers are. I will admit that the
season finales on Angel have never satisfied me. I hated
the Pylea one last year. This one- made even less sense.
Angel always peaks (for me) in mid-season. -Last year with
the killing of the lawyers (a good start) and this year,
with the birth of Conner. You could argue that it is so
climatic, that everything else can't compete.
I don't know... Is Charasima leaving the show or not? Or
is she suppose to replace the "ptb" that were slaughtered
months ago. (Will Angel start bringing her an "offering" of
a gucci bag or whatever?)
What does she mean she 'loves' Angel? She had too level a
head to love him. THe girl knew about the sex clause,
afterall. She knew what had happened with Buffy. (and
Angelus). I think the writers should have expounded her
thoughts on these things more, explain her rationalization
of why this was safe or feasible or a good idea- rather than
just have her pick up the phone and call him. What was she
planning? To get it on beachside after she had told him?
In that scene w/ Skip, I am glad that Cordy & Skip knew what
they were talking about because I didn't. And if she is
ascending, perhaps the writers plan to reunite her with
Doyle (which I think would be totally cool- but probably
not.)
The Wesley/lawyer scene-- Eeewwwwww! Gross!
I continue to wonder why no one went to Wesley to find out
what the prophecy said or what exactly motivated him to
steal that baby. I don't think his notes gave a clear
enough picture. Why do the lawyers want him so badly?
The one thing I really like about Buffy is that the season
finales have not cliffhung. They did not tie many ends
together at all on this Angel finale. I am largely
dissatisfied with this.
I hope Lorne is not really gone.
[> [>
Re: It just did not do it for me -- West,
15:55:18 05/21/02 Tue
"Why do the lawyers want him so badly?"
Lilah's stating that she wants him for his genius, but I
don't buy it, given the extensive resources for W&H. I'd
imagine she wants his connections to AI, which will
eventually be renewed, I hope, and she sees this.
[>
Cordelia ... -- Earl Allison,
13:28:41 05/21/02 Tue
One major nit -- WHEN did Cordelia have the opportunity to
abuse the powers she was "loaded" with? Cordelia could
hardly control them, or even determine when they were going
to activate (which made her manifestations Deus Ex Machina
in the extreme).
Are we to assume something behind the scenes? Cordy only
gave Connor a "soul colonic," zapped the slug-creatures, and
floated once while having a vision -- at what time did she,
or COULD she, manipulate/abuse her power?
This just smacked of poor writing -- and if the writers were
to continue with St. Cordelia -- I'm glad she's gone. Maybe
Angel and the others will find the pod under her bed, and
sarcastic, tell-it-like-it-is Cordelia will return :)
Take it and run.
[> [>
Yes! -- West, 15:56:50 05/21/02 Tue
"(which made her manifestations Deus Ex Machina in the
extreme)."
Exactly what I was trying to say in my 'What's the Dilly-O
with Cordy?' post. DEM was exactly the term I was looking
for. Danke. ;)
[> [> [>
Speaking of Deux ex machina -- alcibiades,
16:01:31 05/21/02 Tue
But isn't her final manifestation the opposite.
She rises in the rectangle of light precisely so she won't
be able to get Angel out of his box.
What's the Latin for demon stuck in a box anyway?
[> [> [> [>
Re: Speaking of Deux ex machina -- Earl Allison,
16:07:32 05/21/02 Tue
Her final manifestation is alone -- Angel isn't there, and
Cordy didn't even know he was in trouble.
I know this is just my opinion, but both of the other
manifestations smacked of poor writing, and was something I
was afraid of ever since Cordy gained "demon powers."
Still, back to my question, did Cordy ever consciously
control her gifts? I don't think so, and that seems to make
Skip's compliment rather flat.
Take it and run.
[> [>
Re: Cordelia ... -- Katrina, 18:09:01 05/21/02
Tue
I agree. When Skip started talking about her becoming a
Higher Being, I half-expected her to say something bitchy
like, "Please, I've always been a Higher Being." I miss the
gal who could scare off vampires with just her mouth.
Second Annual
11th Hour Buffy Endgame Speculation ... (*No Spoilers*)
-- OnM, 22:26:00 05/20/02 Mon
Friends, Romulans, Buffsters... lend me your
fears!
In keeping with tradition (having done this all of
exactly once before), I hereby offer you the chance
to
participate in this year’s OnM sponsored Buffy endseason
speculation/prognostication event!
First prize - Big pat on the back for yourself
for being so doggone smart!
Second prize - Gentle pat on the head, and
consoling words, such as ‘And you were so close!!
Third prize - Sorry, there isn’t one.
Budget’s kinda restricted here, if you haven’t already
noticed.
To participate fairly you must not be spoiled to the
extent that you actually do know what’s
going to happen. Other than that, just choose from one of
the options below, and if you just want to post a
subject line response only, you may use the handy signifying
letter that precedes each quality-crafted
contemplation. As I did last year, I’ll place my own
personal guess up first, then list some other likely (or
not)
scenarios.
Go for it!
*******
A > Willow becomes progressively more and more submerged in
dark magicks, and nothing anyone can do to
try to pull her back out of the pit of evil is working. In
desperation, Buffy, Xander and Dawn go to Anya and
ask her to grant a ‘wish’. Things get tricky with this,
since the granting of the wish is supposed to hinge on
the need for vengeance, and wishing that Willow would return
to the way she was before isn’t really
vengeance in the strictest sense. Buffy argues that Halfrek
called herself a ‘justice’ demon, and where is the
justice in Normal Willow turning into Darth Willow? She
urges Anya to branch out a little. Anya debates this
and eventually agrees, but cautions that changing reality
can have unexpected consequences. Buffy thinks very
hard and finally decides on a carefully worded wish, hoping
to avoid having things get worse. They wish,
Anya says ‘done’, but nothing happens.
Baffled, Anya tries yet again, but still nothing changes.
Xander indicates the power center amulet around
Anya’s neck and asks, “That thing doesn’t need like,
recharging or something, does it?” Anya gives him the
evil eye, says no, there is only one possibility-- a
vengeance wish has already been cast, and they are all
currently living within it. Only the vengeance demon who
cast the spell can undo it, just like with Dawn’s
wish, and until that is done, no other vengeance demon can
make a wish within the wish to change it’s
‘path’.
Meanwhile, Spike is on his way back to California from
Africa. He has survived the trials, and the chip is
gone. So is his need to avoid the sunlight-- he’s been made
human again, as the cave demon has taken ‘poetic
license’ with Spike’s demand to be made ‘what he was
before’. (The CD still isn’t too pleased about Spike
allowing himself to lose his Dark Warrior-hood to the
Slayer, so he uses a ‘weasel clause’ in the ‘contract’
to
get out of making Spike a fully unencumbered evil creature
again.
Surprisingly, Spike isn’t feeling all remorseful about his
previous badness since getting a soul back-- in fact,
he’s pretty pissed that he held up his end of the deal and
got ‘rewarded’ with ‘weakness and mortality’. Like
Darla before him, being human again carries no real interest-
- he wants to be a vampire again. And since he
can’t render ‘payback’ to the CD in his present state, he
figures that at least he can get back at the person who
put him in this sorry state. Guess who that might be, and
who can’t just kill him now that he’s human.
Willow is almost gone, she’s now trying to kill herself.
Anya summons D’Hoffryn to try to find out who has
cast the wish and see if they can be influenced to rescind
it. D’Hoffryn is not amused at this, and laments that
the humans are still weakening Anya, even though she is now
a demon again (a parallel to Spike and the Cave
Demon, natch). Anya, surprising herself, tells D’Hoffryn
off, saying that it hasn’t exactly been a poker table
full of kittens being on the receiving side of someone
else’s curse, and she wants to at least know what the
circumstances are behind the wish she is now locked into.
“How am I supposed to do my job?”
D’Hoffryn relents, and tells her that the spell is one of
Halfrek’s. “I’m not getting in the middle of this”, he
states. “I love all my demons equally.” D’Hoffryn departs.
Anya summons Halfrek, who explains that Andrew
was the child who was ‘in pain’, and made a wish for someone
to care about him. The vengeance (or ‘justice’
as Halfrek puts it) angle was that nasty homophobia that
surrounded Andrew for the last several years of his
life, particularly that of his father, and made him angry
and resentful towards the rest of the ‘straight’ world.
( The wish then acted to bring Andrew in ‘closer’ contact
with Warren, who while secretly gay, is in serious,
angry denial about it and unfortunately was already half
psychotic to boot. His psychosis deepens as Andrew
becomes more and more ‘familiar’ with him, and his already
warped perceptions of women rampage out of
control. (This repressive scenario offers a mirror to the
healthy, more open relationship of Tara and Willow.
In each case, the relationship was sabotaged by someone who
is unwilling to understand their own true
nature, and integrate it into themselves a positive way;
thus evil gains a foothold. )
Anya bitterly complains to Halfrek that this is really
mighty damn sloppy work on her part, like
f’rinstance where is the justice? Andrew is in jail,
Warren has killed several women, and that certainly
isn’t ‘taking back the night’, and now another woman is
about to kill herself and maybe half the town along
with her. Halfrek complains that Anya has spent way too much
time with humans, and is getting caught up in
all those ‘little petty details they’re so fond of obsessing
about.”
“This ends NOW!” declares Anya, and grabs the power center
amulet from around Halfrek’s neck while
shoving her roughly to the ground. She goes to smash the
amulet, and Halfrek shrieks “STOP! I’ll lift the
spell! Don’t make me one of them! I’m so not cut out for
mortality!” Anya allows Halfrek to cancel the spell,
and tells her to leave and never come around this way again.
Halfrek departs, overtly pissed but secretly
grateful to still be non-mortal.
Buffy, Xander and Dawn gather again with Anya to make the
wish to save Willow and the world. Buffy asks
Anya one last time whether the world she’s going to wish for
might end up worse than this one they are living
in now. Is she sure that the new one is going to be a better
world? Anya looks very solemn-- she doesn’t
really know for sure, but she looks Buffy in the eye and
softly says,
“It has to be”.
Grrr. Arrgh.
*******
B > OK, something like the above that involves a wish to
restore things, and Spike getting his chip out.
Willow is saved, but Tara is still dead. Spike is still a
vamp. Life goes on.
*******
C > There’s no wish, Buffy eventually convinces Willow to
quit the evil bit, and Tara is still dead. Spike gets
his chip out and also gets to be human again. Like in ‘A’,
he’s not remorseful, he’s angry. He wants to kill
Buffy, and now that he’s human she can’t kill him. Dawn
thinks someone should vamp him again.
*******
D > It is revealed to Willow that she is responsible
for Tara’s death, it was the ‘price’ for her
resurrection of Buffy. Willow is shocked out of her downward
spiral-- all this time she was blaming
everything and everyone except herself. She wants to commit
suicide, but Buffy and Xander won’t let her.
Willow goes to Anya and wants to know if she can cast a
vengeance wish upon herself. She wants to be
stripped of all her magical abilities, and be fated to never
fall in love with anyone again. Anya refuses. “You’ll
have to live with your mistakes, and maybe learn from them.
That’s vengeance enough.” Anya goes to visit
Xander. She stands in front of him and asks him if he still
wants to marry her. He doesn’t hesitate this time,
and says yes immediately. Her face morphs into it’s demonic
visage. He’s startled for a few seconds then
recovers. “Even if I look like this? Even if I am a demon,
and not human? He meets her eyes, and again
without pause answers yes. She sees the sincerity in his
look. “All right then. Let’s do it.” They kiss, she
leaves, saying she’ll be back later. The next scene shows
her with D’Hoffryn, who is asking her, “Are you
sure, Anyanka? This is what you really want?”
“I’m sure”, replies Anya. She hands the amulet to D’Hoffryn.
“It was a very interesting 1100 years. Especially
the last three.” She turns to go.
“I suppose this means you’ll be keeping the wedding gift?”
D’Hoffryn calls after her. “You have been feeding
him, haven’t you?”
*******
E > Willow has beaten back all of the Scoobies, and is
about to kill herself with one final burst of dark
magical energy when suddenly she finds herself in the midst
of a desert tableau. Oh wow, magic
flashback, she thinks, then just as suddenly a spirit
coalesces before her. It’s Tara, and she doesn’t look
happy, in fact her visage is so incredibly sad, that Willow
falls to her knees on the sand and begins to
spontaneously weep.
“Don’t look at me that way”, Willow sniffles.
“How could you do this, Willow?”, replies the spirit. “I
knew the end was near. You should have known it
too. It’s why I came back to your heart and to your bed, to
be with you for however long we had. And this is
how you repay me, with this anger and lust for
vengeance.”
“But he killed you! He took your light away. He had to
pay.”
“He would have. You need only have waited. Trusted in me,
trusted in your friends. Now look at what you’ve
become.”
“What do I do now?”
“You know the answer already. Go home. Live. Forgive.” The
ghostly figure walks over to Willow and
touches her softly on the cheek.
The desert fades and dissolves into a field of blinding
whiteness and Willow is back in Sunnydale.
*******
F > Spike gets his chip removed, becomes a badass vamp
again, and returns to Sunnydale, where he finds
EvilWillow terrorizing the town. He immediately forgets all
about both Dru and Buffy and sets out to win her
heart. Season 7 opens with Willow and Spike having S&M sex
in his crypt. She is wearing a fuzzy pink
sweater, a leather harness, and nothing else. He isn’t
wearing anything. The camera is positioned so that some
convenient objet d’art blocks our view of the naughty bits.
UPN gets very, very nervous.
*******
G > Spike gets his chip removed and becomes human again.
Buffy, desperate, and out of other options,
retrieves the chip and has it implanted in Willow, with the
settings re-adjusted to prevent the use of magic.
Willow falls in love with Buffy during Season 7.
*******
H > Mulder and Scully appear in the last few moments of
Episode 22 and want to know what the job
market’s like in Sunnydale.
*******
I > None of the above. Your theory goes here.
*******
;-)
Counting down to 8-0-0...
;-)
[>
Note: By 'No Spoilers' I mean for Eps 21 & 22. There
*are* spoilers for prev. eps. -- OnM, 22:34:55
05/20/02 Mon
[>
None of the above...sort of -- Kitt, 22:48:58
05/20/02 Mon
I've already posted what I think is gonna happen to Spike -
Spike becomes a 'real boy' and, desperate for help, looking
more pathetic than in Pangs, shows up on Giles doorstep
begging for help. Yeah, he's gonna have a 'Darla' phase,
and Dru will no doubt put in an apperance at some point, but
I think that he will come back to Buffy, ... maybe as her
new Watcher? In any case his story is gonna be dragged out
over the entire season.
I have absolutely no idea what Buff and the rest are going
to do with Willow... but that's half the fun!
[>
How about ... -- Cactus Watcher, 23:07:07
05/20/02 Mon
J) Rachel decides to move to Sunnydale and raise Emma with
Clem. OK, a 'Friends'-'Buffy' crossover is unlikely, but
she was pregnant for over a full year. The kid has to be
part demon!
Seriously or at least sort of.
I) Tara's death does not close the circle opened by Buffy's
resurrection. Innocent blood was on Willow's hands the
first time and will be on them again. Either Willow will
die or she will 'snap out of it' to regret what she has
done, but won't be able to reverse it. Someone, probably
Dawn, will react in horror to what has happened and will
make an ambigous wish, not out of vengence, but out of
desperation for peace. Anya acting as a 'justice demon'
rather than a vengence demon will grant the wish as the show
ends. The audience will be left wondering what exactly
happened over the summer... Spike is 'out of town' for an
extra reason; so that the wish will not affect him.
[> [>
' I ' is good. I like ' I '. -- OnM, 23:24:25
05/20/02 Mon
[>
LOL, I vote for F :P -- Traveler, 23:46:16
05/20/02 Mon
Spike/Willow sex. Mmmmmhhhh.... juicy.
[>
Re: Second Annual 11th Hour Buffy Endgame Speculation
... (*No Spoilers*) -- Malandanza, 00:16:00 05/21/02
Tue
Anya: You can't fight Willow. She has the powers of a
god.
Buffy: God. Huh. I guess I'll need to use the hammer.
*********************
I don't think Spike will play any part in the finale -- in
fact, I think that his one day trip to Africa was last
episode so it wouldn't interrupt the finale with
irrelevancies. ME needed the Spike/Demon encounter for next
season and had to set it up this season.
Anya will be the key in her capacity as a vengeance demon
(ME has spent too much time dwelling on the vengeance
aspects for it not to play a role).
Willow is uninterested in conflict with the Scoobies and
Buffy. She heads to the jail to kill Andrew and Jonathan,
blasting her way in. She kills Andrew and is about to kill
Jonathan when he pulls one last magical trick -- a glamour
spell to look like Tara. Willow is rattled (Human weakness)
and flees -- Jonathan escapes through the rubble...
Where he is captured by Buffy (he just can't get a break).
He tells her everything he knows and begs for asylum -- she
grants it and sends him off to exile in Spike's crypt with
Dawn and Clem.
Buffy, Anya and Xander put together a plan to defeat Willow
using the resources of the Magic Box (Anya lets them have
the supplies -- mostly protective devices -- at 10% over
cost, since it's an emergency and for a good cause). From
Jonathan's description of Willow they believe that there is
enough of their friend left that they can save her, but are
reluctant to use Tara to attack Willow.
The attack goes badly. Willow has anticipated their every
move. Buffy gets a few good hits in, but Xander, Anya and
Buffy are easily defeated while Willow gloats. Xander tries
to remind Willow of who she was, but receives pain and
derision for his efforts. Willow moves to finish Buffy
(beaten but still defiant) when Xander makes a wish. W/X is
still around -- all along Willow and Xander (in spite of
their other loves) have been in love. Anya realizes
everything the moment Xander makes his wish. She is forced
to grant it -- Willow's magical powers are torn from her
forever. Now impotent, Willow is pummeled by Buffy and
collapses, broken physically, mentally and spiritually.
In the aftermath, Willow is committed to an institution (the
best money can buy -- nothing's too good for the Rosenberg's
little girl). With the realization that Xander always loved
Willow, Anya is gone for good. She must remain a vengeance
demon as long as Willow is alive or the spell will be
reversed. Xander realizes that he always loved Willow and
is horrified that his wish left her institutionalized. And
Dawn returns from exile with a crush on Jonathan and
carrying a basketful of kittens won during poker night.
Buffy's ok! She sufffered enough this season.
**************************************
Dawn has begged to be a part of the Scoobies -- now she gets
her chance. The Willow war spills over into life and she
finds herself fighting alongside Xander and Anya, trying to
save Buffy from Willow. Buffy has been captured, but not
killed -- Willow wants Buffy alive to gloat over her
triumph. Dawn is instrumental in freeing Buffy and the
second time around, with the support of her friends, Buffy
beats the hubris right out of Willow. Willow consents to
having a spell cast that will prevent her from ever using
magic again.
************************************
Willow Brings Tara back from the dead (yes, the Zombie Tara
theory!) but there are problems. Willow enters the jail to
kill Andrew and Jonathan -- kills Andrew and we get an
interrogation scene like the ones in Go Fish and Earshot.
Willow decides that Jonathan could be useful (a glamour to
make Tara look less like a zombie) and keeps him as her
slave (with suitable slave costume -- hey, Katrina had to
wear the maid's uniform, Jonathan shouldn't mind a Eunuch
uniform). Zombie Tara is key in defeating Willow.
[> [>
Re: Second Annual 11th Hour Buffy Endgame Speculation
... (*No Spoilers*) -- Rattletrap, 08:56:25 05/21/02
Tue
I humbly throw out my own version of "I" for the board's
discussion. Mal has made some good points that have me
thinking, so I'm piggybacking this under his(?)
subthread.
"I don't think Spike will play any part in the finale -- in
fact, I think that his one day trip to Africa was last
episode so it wouldn't interrupt the finale with
irrelevancies. ME needed the Spike/Demon encounter for next
season and had to set it up this season."
I agree. I think we will see a couple of token Spike
appearances in each hour for contractual reasons, but not
enough to seriously advance that storyline. Given that
Angel ended with such a terrible cliffhanger, I'm
expecting Buffy to have a slightly neater ending this
year, but they wil leave us hanging on a couple of stories,
and I think this will be one of them.
"Dawn has begged to be a part of the Scoobies -- now she
gets her chance."
I agree here too. I think this will be the other major
story point already opened that remains unresolved after the
show tonight. ME has gone to great pains in the last few
weeks to set Dawn up as a bit more mature and extremely
hungry for some action. I see two ways this could possibly
play out: (1) Dawn runs off from Clem's care and gets
involved in the battle, she ends up saving Buffy's life at a
key point as the scoobies go on to triumph, (2) same
beginning, but Buffy has to save Dawn's life at some point,
Dawn gets in some trouble, but Buffy becomes less reluctant
about letting her patrol. Both of these would set up a Dawn
the Jr. Vampire Slayer storyline for next season, which I
feel almost certain is the direction ME will go. Of these
two possibilities, I think the 2nd is more likely.
Willow's dark magic bender will continue. She goes to the
jail and kills Andrew, but Buffy intervenes before she can
finish off Jonathan. This leads to a climactic Witch vs.
Slayer showdown in the 2nd hour. Willow taps darker magics
than we've ever seen before, but right as she's about to
best Buffy, her power fizzles out, almost killing Willow in
the process. S7 opens with Willow in a coma in the
hospital. Jonathan vanishes until another token appearance
late in S7.
As OnM predicted, Xander gets back together w/ Anya and
agrees to love her even if she's a demon. Anya goes to
D'Hoffryn and renounces her demonhood. S7 opens with them
already married (please . . .) so we don't have to sit
through another season of wedding planning.
Tara does not appear in the finale, but shows up as a spirit
guide in Willow's coma fantasies during early S7.
I suspect I am wrong on most of this, but I look forward to
more discussion.
'trap
P. S. Honorable mention to both the Spike+Willow S&M, and X-
files crossover ideas--we can dream.
[>
You already know my answer, now spoiled I know the end
so I have to just sit back and gesture..;) -- Rufus,
00:32:31 05/21/02 Tue
[> [>
I guess being 1/8th spoiled is too much for thread
-- shadowkat, 05:56:57 05/21/02 Tue
Not as spoiled as Rufus...but since I agree with Rufus.
I will also have to sit back gesture. Realized as I was
writing my response...and reading the above, that
knowing 1/8 of what was going to happen was probably
too much for this thread. ;-)
[> [>
Spoiler Trollops at the Pearly Gates -- Cactus
Watcher, 06:34:20 05/21/02 Tue
St. Peter - Well, my child, you've led a very sinful life...
But, you were a fan of Buffy... I guess I can give you one
last chance to redeem yourself. Answer this well and you
may enter Paradise: What is the most important thing you
learned through living?
Spoiler Trollop - Before I answer, could I just check the
'wildfeed' on this?
[> [> [>
OK, now *that's* a hall o' famer! ROFL! -- OnM,
06:49:30 05/21/02 Tue
[> [> [>
Hey! That would be "Study Guides".....I feel
a gesture coming on right now...;):):):):) -- Rufus,
16:46:50 05/21/02 Tue
[> [> [> [>
Forgiveness is a wonderful gesture ;o) -- Cactus
Watcher, 06:17:56 05/22/02 Wed
And maybe St. Peter liked that answer...
[> [>
Bummer! But those are *emphatic* gestures, right? ;-
) -- OnM, 06:44:28 05/21/02 Tue
[> [>
Mmphf mmhhmu...sigh. I'm with you Ruf. But could be a
good game of charades! -- Deeva ;o), 09:11:46
05/21/02 Tue
Too spoiled to respond but not spoiled about how it really
ends as for some mysterious, reason I've chosen not to read
the wildfeed. Is this what will power feels like? Not sure
I'm liking it.
[>
I. is for "I don´t have a clue but I´ll
try" -- grifter, 02:48:13 05/21/02 Tue
I have to admit that I´m slightly spoiled for individual
scenes, but i will not include these her and I have no
information on the bigger picture and the details.
Here´s how it could turn out:
I. Willow realizes Tara´s death is part of the prize of
Buffy´s resurrection. She has a little talk with Osiris and
is told to get Buffy back into her "Grave" to get Tara back.
Big fighting ensues, Willow is winning, but in the end
realizes she can´t kill Buffy. Something good is still in
her and tells her Tara wouldn´t want her to. With her last
hope to get Tara back gone, she decides to end her own life.
She is talked down by the others and ghost-Tara, who serves
as a spirit guide or something in season 7, and, in the end,
is brought back by the PTB as a gift to the SG.
Spike gets nothing in Africa. He passes the trials, but the
CD just hates his guts and doesn´t remove the chip. He
doesn´t tell him though. Spike comes back to SD believing to
be his old self. Painful realisation that he has been played
follows soon...
[>
Shul knows best? -- Shul, 03:55:05 05/21/02
Tue
My visions say that buffy will be defeated, but she will be
saved at the last minute when willow is attacked by a
hundred thousand empathic bunnies.
[>
I like F. Can you bring back Faith too for the BDSM fun
of S7 ? -- Etrangere, 05:06:29 05/21/02 Tue
[> [>
Great minds think alike Ete. I second this. And given
the topic, we're looking for a third. -- Sophist,
08:38:01 05/21/02 Tue
[>
I like H -- matching mole, 05:51:32 05/21/02
Tue
except that I'd expand it. Cancer Man, having miraculously
escaped death once again, shows up to offer Willow some
expert advice on vengeance. The ghosts of the Lone Gunmen
show up to bolster the depleted ranks of the Scoobies.
These examples of what a life long pursuit of either evil or
justice can do to you (become an emaciated husk blowing
smoke out of your trachea or an impoverished nerd) causes
all the Scoobies both dark and not so dark to pack it in and
take up surfing. Mulder and Scully start a bizarre offshoot
of the Catholic Church which features aliens, porn, and
surfing. Scoobies join this church, become brainwashed, and
end up in a mental institution thus proving that the
asylumverse of Normal Again is the real thing.
[> [>
Changing my vote now... ;-) -- OnM, 06:55:09
05/21/02 Tue
The 'S-Files'?? Cue the Beach Boys music...
;-)
[> [>
Re: Oh please, let this be it! -- dubdub ;o),
16:13:36 05/21/02 Tue
Not since Twin Peaks has there been so intriguing a
plot outline! I'm a fan already...
[>
K: DarthWillow tears a hole in the fabric of space-time
to enter the Star Wars dimension... -- Lonesome Sundown,
06:27:36 05/21/02 Tue
... and promptly becomes a Sith apprentice. Living in the
Star Wars dimension is a dream come true for Jonathan and
Andrew, who bust out of jail. Anakin and Andrew fall head
over heels in love and get married. In episode 3: the
miraculous birth of Luke! the vengeance of a bad ass lesbian
Sith-Wicca (Sicca? With?) !
[> [>
Re: The "miraculous birth of Luke" --
cjl, 08:54:41 05/21/02 Tue
If Andrew and Anakin get married, who gives birth to
Luke?
On second thought, don't answer that question.
[>
E.... honorable mention to F! -- Tillow,
06:45:45 05/21/02 Tue
[>
Here are my half-baked ideas... -- lunarchickk,
07:20:51 05/21/02 Tue
My spec is all based in the musical. As in the last scene of
Tara and Giles' "Wish I Could Stay," where Buffy and Willow
are face to face as Tara and Giles gaze at them, the
climactic battle comes down to Buffy and Willow. It's a draw
-- Willow has the sheer power to easily defeat Buffy, but
lacks the control. And Buffy manages to bring Willow to a
standstill, but she lacks the self-preservation to not get
herself killed now that everything's been torn away this
year.
And like the end of the musical, the only way to stop this
self-destruction is to be interrupted by someone. In OMwF,
Spike stops Buffy from incinerating with advice on living.
Perhaps he returns, newly human and suddenly understanding
what he's done to her. Or perhaps it is the spirit of Tara -
- I'm partial to the ending of E, above.
However, all that suggests that there will be actual
closure! After watching Angel's season finale last night,
I'm pretty convinced that tonight will end in one of two
scenes:
a - close up on Anyanka, as she intones, "DONE."
b - mid-shot of Spike, looking all bad-ass, with no
explanation, just a leer and a quip along the lines of "I'm
back"
*sigh* Because either option will leave us in pain all
summer...
However, I do have a scenario I'm rooting for for Season
7:
At the end of this season, the battle between Buffy and
Willow, with Xander, rages on. It's a standstill -- no one
can get the upper hand for long. So they break off the
fight, regroup, continue. All. Summer. Long.
By fall, we tune back in for the season premiere to find
Anyanka sitting alone in a bar somewhere, lonely and tired
of vengeance, when lo! The spirit of Tara appears. Anya,
being a demon, can see her, much to Tara's relief. The
battle between Buffy/Xander/Willow is breaking poor
Spirit!Tara's heart, and Anya nods. She understands -- she
feels the same way. At this point, Clem wanders in with
Dawn, and Dawn's magical key-ness helps Tara materialize
enough for the four of them to feel a bond.
And so we have Demon!Anya, Ghost!Tara, Clem, and Dawn pick
up the war against evil in all its wacky forms, as the B/X/W
war continues to rage in the background. Kind of like in The
Zeppo. Around November sweeps, who should appear but Spike -
- he's been raging helplessly all the way back to Sunnydale
after the Cave Demon made him human. Anya thoughtfully asks
if he wishes he was a vampire again. Hell no, says Spike.
He's just gotten used to being human again, and he's come to
confront Buffy. The four anti-scoobies warn him against this
with much yelling and gesturing, explaining the never-ending
battle the others are waging (while forgetting entirely
about their friends). And so, Spike joins our motley little
group in fighting for Christmas and puppies and all
that.
Finally, at some point our five heroes realize that the
B/X/W war (which is still raging) is going to tear the town
apart -- and continue until Dawn has grandchildren -- and
they plot a way to fight Sunnydale's newest big bad -- the
self-involved core scoobies. (dum dum DUM!)
:)
[>
wish upon a demon -- skeeve, 08:44:07 05/21/02
Tue
From what I've seen, Willow just does what she wants. The
Scoobies lack the combination of intellect and power to stop
her. I expect that she would stop at 3, at 4, or at 6
billion, most likely 3. Having killed the trio, Willow
comes to a major 'now what?'. She can't stay in Sunnydale.
All her friends are afraid of her. She needs to go
somewhere people don't know how powerful she is. If she
decides to cure Oz, she should find and cure him before her
other friends tell him what happened. Does AH have a
contract for next year?
Maybe the Scoobie gang is a little brighter than I gave them
credit for. One of them makes a wish that undoes the
shootings of Buffy and Tara (nyah Osiris). Maybe they even
think carefully about who makes the wish and who grants
it.
The wish, who should make the wish, and who should grant it
are left as exercises for the reader. The Scoobies would
probably need the granter to remain a demon.
If they're a lot smarter than they have shown, they might do
the Solomon thing and wish might for the wisdom to know what
to do.
[>
My "I" -- RichardX1,
18:15:30 05/21/02 Tue
I know it's a little late for speculation, but a deus ex
machina would never appear before the last 30 minutes
(if that early). So...
(I) ME pulls a Pheonix on us and we discover that Willow's
been displaced since sometime last season.
Current
board
| More May 2002