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Why is everyone surprised about the usage of a gun -- mutantmagnet, 17:00:08 05/08/02 Wed

In the first season Darla whipped out a pair of handguns and in season two one of the assassins used a gun.

For Warren to use a gun isn't cheesy in the slightest bit because he lacks mystical power and support from the rest of the trio. His options to keep on fighting are seriously limited.

Buffy has handled characters with guns before and the only difference between her getting shot in SR and not the other episodes was that Buffy was on full alert. This episode she was already too worn out with everything that has happened and in effect was a little slow on the uptake.

[> Re: Why is everyone surprised about the usage of a gun -- maddog, 17:40:01 05/08/02 Wed

It's still rare though. The majority of the fighting over the years has been hand to hand, or magical.

[> [> Re: Why is everyone surprised about the usage of a gun -- mutantmagnet, 20:19:46 05/08/02 Wed

It's not as rare as you make it out to be. This show has had a lot of instances where modern philosophies, technics and technology have clashed or meshed with one another.

In my above post I have stated how only villians used modern things to fight the forces of good but the opposite holds true. Willo and Miss Calender used the internet to gain vital information or acquire useful items (like the Urn of Osiris used to resurrect Buffy). When a force of evil was way too tough to fight by archaic means Buffy and the gang has used Buffybot, a rocket launcher and even flame throwers to combat evil. It is uncommon for modern weapons and devices to be used for your benefit but it isn't rare.

The way I see it, from how the show explains things, the truly evil demons are elitists who scoff at anyone who delves too much in modernity. Adam made this point very well in how the deomns are traditionalists and when he executes his Trojan horse maneuver, do the monster pick up the guns after they kill a soldier? Nope. The still charge head first into battle and still effectively kill trained soldiers.

The only villians to really dabble in technology are all human (with Moluch being the only exception since he had no choice in the matter). The fact that vampires are part human is probably why the other demons supposedly hate them. Sure they have demon essences but they are corrupted by human innovations.

[> I agree totally with Mutantmagnet -- OtherEric, 18:08:22 05/08/02 Wed

Using a gun against the slayer and her allies is the smart move. If he had been thinking ahead, and not wanted to get his hands so dirty, he would have brought a gun to the amusement park and used that, the orbs, and his jet pack, and he would have destroyed Buffy right then and there.

Probably the main reason that guns don't show up so much is that anyone competent with one that had a reason to take out the slayer would have killed her years ago and then we wouldn't have a show.

Also, Warren now has the record, I would say. Except for the master, no one has ever wounded Buffy this badly, and he took out one of her allies with a stray, lucky shot. His other mistake (again, he has to goof this, or no more show) was not finishing them off. Two more minutes, and at the least Buffy and Xander are dead. He probably could have gotten Willow too. Witch or not, powerful or not, without preparation and components and also being rusty, I give him better than 50/50 odds to take her out had he decided to check and clear the house.

For a half-ass, unplanned attack, he did better than any other villain ever has on the show, without actually killing Buffy. That again is probably why guns are kept off the show. Even a pack of new vamps all packing would totally waste Buffy. An enterprising solo vamp with a sniper rifle who staked out the cememetary (staked...hehehehe)could have gotten her from a distance years ago also. A true superhero (like comic book style) with either a secret identity (at least as far as the badguys go) or who is always on total alert if they lack bullet resistance (like a Batman or Spidey what with his danger sense)would not be so vulnerable to any too bit packing heat (or a pro packing heat for that matter), but Buffy is neither of those things, so introducing guns on a regular basis would make her continued survivability much less realistic.

[> [> Nope -- Hauptman, 18:19:52 05/08/02 Wed

"Two more minutes, and at the least Buffy and Xander are
dead. He probably could have gotten Willow too."

Naw! Maybe if he had been more focused he could have killed Buffy and Xander, but if he had walked into the bedroom, I think the second floor of the house would have exploded. Willow would have probably killed Dawn, too, by accident, if not half of Sunnydale.

Personally, I have always loved the "Transformation as your love lies dying" scenes, (Marvel comics was famous for them) and I am excited to see what happens next, but I feel so sorry for Willow. I know she is just a made up character, but it's a made up character I love. I'm hoping for happy ending smaltz.

[> [> [> You're wrong. Must not have played enough D&D like the trio + me -- OtherEric, 18:56:05 05/08/02 Wed

He would have had a great backstab opportunity with the +4 bonus and everything since she was having a bit of an emotional moment. Magic doesn't help a damn bit if someone with a gun (or crossbow pistol with Drow sleep poison for that matter) gets the drop on you.

Her magic makes her tough, but not all powerful. Normally she needs components and preparation to do the big stuff. In this instance she'd have neither.

Play some more games and you'll develop a better tactical sense.

[> [> [> [> Re: You're wrong. Must not have played enough D&D like the trio + me -- Cactus Watcher, 20:59:15 05/08/02 Wed

Perhaps the D&D games you've played were with a 'chummy' DM. Remember what happened when Adam opened up with his arsenal on Buffy+Giles+Xander+Willow. That was Willow's magic. Willow's magic two years ago. Since then she stood toe-to- toe with a god. Your boy has blundered into the lair of an enraged and alert end-of-level monster. Alone. Time to roll a new character. ;o)

[> [> [> [> [> You're wrong too. I already considered what happened to adam -- OtherEric, 06:06:33 05/09/02 Thu

That took preparation. This time, she doesn't have that.

[> [> [> [> [> [> There is a difference between a plan and a good one -- CW, 09:29:45 05/09/02 Thu

You assume too much about how quickly, and quietly Warren can find Willow in the house, and you also assume too little about how much Willow has been growing in her magic. Any fair DM would tell you the same thing. Nice try. But, the battle ends with Warren in another dimension or splattered irreversably all over the walls. (Next episode he will probably wish he'd been that lucky!) Hence, roll for a new character. If you're ready for a different approach to the same argument read DEN's post below.

[> Why I laughed my head off for the last five minutes of the May 7th episode -- Frank Brubaker, 19:58:56 05/08/02 Wed

I've only been watching Buffy regularly for about a year or so, but one of the first things I thought of when I saw the show was "why does everybody insist on meele/hand-to-hand combat? Why doesn't somebody just shoot her?" When Warren and his cohort was introduced I remember remarking "These lads seem smart. Maybe one of them will finally decide that all Buffy needs is a few bullets put into her to put her down." (This was before I saw the Darla and assassian episode mutantmagnet mentioned). So when Warren showed up at the end and started firing, I busted out laughing, even as I thought "you know, a two-handed firing stance would so increase his accuracy."

My laughter got even more uncontrollable after Tara got shot. Why, you might ask? Because earlier in the episode she and Willow were in bed, and one of them (Tara, I believe) made a comment to the effect that maybe they should get out of bed and help search for the nerds, to which the other replied in the negative. When that scene was on I thought "That's right, choose sex over doing the right thing. If this was a horror movie that would set it up for one of you to be killed by the monster." Boy, was I right!

[> Re: Why is everyone surprised about the usage of a gun -- gds, 21:09:46 05/08/02 Wed

95% (accurcacy alert - this is not an objectively calculated statistic) of the time the Scooby's are fighting demons, not humans. It has been explicitly stated on several occasions that demons rarely use weapons and are incompetant with using technology. Adam was the only true exception I can recall (though Spike seems to have some taste for technology). Toth did use a non-primitive wapon, but it was magic rather than technology. The Master in the alternate universe did use factory technology, but he didn't use use technological weapons either. With demons it is almost always magic or fist and fang (with some the low tech tools like club, knife and sword). There are a few motorized demons. A few seem to use computers. The Scooby's aren't really used to the deadly battle with humans, so they weren't prepared. In Warren's case there was another suprise - that he would use something as crude and low tech as a regular handgun. This from a guy who builds cyborgs, freeze rays and rocket packs. It was beneath him.

[> [> Re: Why is everyone surprised about the usage of a gun -- DEN, 07:35:55 05/09/02 Thu

As for Warren's behavior, he's not making a commando strike, but acting out of near-tears frustration. He had no plan for using the gun, and no skill at it (a piece like that has a sharp recoil if you're not looking for it, and easily kicks off target.) He didn't know who--if anyone--was in the house. And it's surprising how difficult it can be actually to use a gun at close range. German officers in the anti- Nazi movement, front-line veterans, were squeamish about just walking up behind Hitler at lunch and blowing out his brains. That Warren flinches and starts shooting up the area is perfectly in character. I hope Willow keeps the gutless little bastard alive and screaming for a week!

[> [> BtVS, Guns and Columbine revisited -- cjl, 07:56:40 05/09/02 Thu

Most vamps and demons really aren't into the finer details of weaponry.

DEMON: What is that? A Glock?
VAMP: No. What are you, an idiot? It's a .357 Mag with all the attachments.
DEMON: Where'd you get it?
VAMP: You know Nicodemus?
DEMON: The saliva demon.
VAMP: Yeah. He owns a shop down on Highway 52. Free ammo with $100 purchase.
DEMON: Cool.
VAMP: Seven day waiting period is a bitch, though...

Most vamps, when they emerge for the grave, are all charged up with bloodlust, primal instinct, and raw power. (Grrrrr.) "Wow, I'm so powerful and strong--and hungry. Where can I get a bite to eat?" Strategy and firearms rarely enter into their thinking.

Darla, of course, is an exception. She's been around for 400 years, she's the Master right-hand woman, she's smart and practical. (And besides, the John Woo-style shoot-out in "Angel" was just frickin' COOL.) Angelus could have used guns, but that's just not the guy's style. (He loves doing the mental torture thing.) Spike? Well, he did hire assassins during Season 2, but then he got into "dancing" with the Slayer, and anything as tactically impersonal as a gun went out the window.

So when it comes down to it, it seems logical that our human supervillain, Warren the nerd, would break out the firepower. After touching briefly on Columbine with "Earshot," BtVS has returned to the theme with a vengeance. Warren is the full-blown sociopath everyone thought Jonathan was when he went up to the tower. Warren is getting revenge on the community for his years of social isolation and torment--and from his point of view, Buffy is the center of that community.

Take away his jet packs, the magic orbs, the cerebral dampener, and the rest of his gimmicks, and he strikes out the way any sociopath would.

Unfortunately, he accidentally kills Tara.

He's toast.

And What About Buffy's Feelings -- jbb, 20:40:46 05/08/02 Wed

I apologize. I have probably comminted an unpardonable sin by posting this here and to the newsgroup. But I feel so strongly about this... Here is the original post:

--------------------------------------------

SPIKE's feelings, SPIKE's guilt. Did SPIKE try or not try to rape her.
Is it possible for SPIKE to be redeemed now. Why does Buffy treat SPIKE
so badly.

Meanwhile, a woman who has saved the world countless times lies shot and
bleeding in her own back yard, but nary a word about that on the various
groups and boards.

A pair or questions to the redemptionists and apologists of Spike. If you
are old enough to have children, would you approve of your daughter
dating Spike? For those who are younger, is Spike what you look for in a
man? Please respond.

Will somebody please explain to me why Spike can be perceived as a good
mate/match for Buffy. How can this be good for her, and the world?

OK, that was a rant of sorts. But I'm open to discussion and debate.

Thanks for listening,
-jbb

[> Re: And What About Buffy's Feelings (Spoilers for above through SE) -- jbb, 20:50:44 05/08/02 Wed

Spoilers for above through SE (sorry)

[> [> Seeing Ed? -- Vickie, 22:15:19 05/08/02 Wed

[> Send him over... -- LeeAnn, 05:00:28 05/09/02 Thu

A pair or questions to the redemptionists and apologists of Spike. If you are old enough to have children, would you approve of your daughter dating Spike? For those who are younger, is Spike what you look for in a man? Please respond

When I have children I don't plan on letting them EVER date.

And you can send James Marsters over to my house any day. Hell, you can send Spike as long as he loves me as much as he loves Buffy.

You know how some people thought the Bronze scene was a dream. That's how I veiw the rape scene. It was just Marti's nightmare. It didn't really happen.

I'm not letting that bitch throw 5 years of Spike's character development out the window.

[> [> Some of your statements are just rude -- Rufus, 13:28:36 05/09/02 Thu

You know how some people thought the Bronze scene was a dream. That's how I veiw the rape scene. It was just Marti's nightmare. It didn't really happen.

I'm not letting that bitch throw 5 years of Spike's character development out the window.

The scene in the Bronze happened and DeKnight did talk about them writing the relationship of Buffy and Spike as not being a good thing as it is now.

Use the writers name, using the word "bitch" to describe her just make you look ignorant.

[> [> [> I'm so sorry.. -- LeeAnn, 16:12:04 05/09/02 Thu

I'm so sorry. Marti Noxon is a wonderful person. Her judgement is always flawless and the attempted rape was a necessary plot element that should have all Buffy viewers rejoicing.

[> [> [> [> Re: I'm so sorry.. -- Rufus, 16:27:44 05/09/02 Thu

I'm not saying that you have to gush over Marti or anyone else but you could have some respect for our board by choosing your words well. Calling Marti a "bitch" is rude and uncalled for, no matter how you feel about her.

[> [> [> [> [> I have defended... -- LeeAnn, 17:05:36 05/09/02 Thu

I have defended Marti most of this season because I found the relationship between Spike and Buffy so fascinating. I thought the continuity problems were just because she wasn't used to keeping the writers in line. But, as I wrote once in "Investing in Spuffy", these characters matter to me. I believe the attempted rape negates the love I thought Spike felt for Buffy. And I blame Noxon for that. I think she made a serious error. I'm not the only one. I think the boards are proof of that.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I have defended...spoilers and speculation -- Rufus, 17:48:52 05/09/02 Thu

One problem with the Spike situation is that they are stuck with their original soul canon. So even with a chip they have to establish that he is still at the core a demon. So even though he has changed in a major way, he can never be fully trusted (they don't even trust Angel with good reason). So they can only take him so far with the chip......my speculation is that the chip will be the thing that starts the process of Spike wanting to become either the monster he was or, become a man or get a soul. I've been a redemptionist but with all what I've seen on both shows their original soul canon is what they are stuck with......so you get the transformational relationship started by the chip. Spike has now found the limits of the chip, it may make him feel differently but doesn't stop him from reverting to a monster again. When he attempted to rape Buffy he started off talking and the situation got out of hand. Buffy could have killed him but she does relate to him like a person, she can't kill him cause deep down she does hope he can change. But the stuff Xander said about what Spike really is, I take to be a hint from the writers. If you look at the soul quote from Joss and eps like Dead Things, OMWF, Tabula Rasa, there are hint in those eps about where this is going. I don't think the "rape" scene negates Spikes love for Buffy, but shows that she can't love him because she fears the consequences of his demon killing at some point, no wonder with what happened with Angel.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I have defended...spoilers and speculation -- LeeAnn, 18:27:33 05/09/02 Thu

One problem with the Spike situation is that they are stuck with their original soul canon.

I think you're right.

I think I feel an essay coming on about how evil that basic canon is.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I have defended...spoilers and speculation -- Rufus, 19:05:30 05/09/02 Thu

They are kinda stuck and with Angel, they have to stick with it or they do have a hard time explaining him. So we have gotten the spectrum of behavior and learned Spikes limitations along that spectrum. It's his preference for chaos that is what scares Buffy and the Gang, they are afraid of another Angelus situation, so they just don't dare trust him. So, in the end we have a Spike who has left town saying that when he comes back there will be some changes. Of course that can be taken a few ways. But remember all the times he has had the chance to he never bit Buffy, and even in Tabula Rasa he said he didn't want to.

[> [> Some of your statements are just rude -- Rufus, 13:41:31 05/09/02 Thu

You know how some people thought the Bronze scene was a dream. That's how I veiw the rape scene. It was just Marti's nightmare. It didn't really happen.

I'm not letting that bitch throw 5 years of Spike's character development out the window.

The scene in the Bronze happened and DeKnight did talk about them writing the relationship of Buffy and Spike as not being a good thing as it is now.

Use the writers name, using the word "bitch" to describe her just make you look ignorant.

[> Re: And What About Buffy's Feelings -- skeeve, 09:03:35 05/09/02 Thu

Sometimes a statement of the obvious can be taken to imply that its maker believes that its recipient is too deficient to realize its truth without help.

Shooting Buffy was bad. Warren is evil.
Any questions?

[> [> Just one question -- jbb, 17:28:42 05/09/02 Thu

"Sometimes a statement of the obvious can be taken to imply that its maker believes that its recipient is too deficient to realize its truth without help."

----

Re-reading my original post shows it, perhaps, to be a bit harsh and judgmental on my part, and possibly not in the spirit of this forum.

I look forward to reading here everday and post (rarely) only when I feel very strongly about an issue. If there are no, or few, responses then the post piqued nobody's interest, and life goes on.

However, I fail to understand the value of a reply containing an insult-wrapped-in-an-accusation from someone who, ironically, apparently missed the entire point of my post.
-jbb

[> [> [> Re: Just one question -- Dariel, 18:43:14 05/09/02 Thu

I'm not sure, but maybe what Skeeve was alluding to was this: Some things are so clear that they are not discussed much. No controversy, no post.

Or it may just be that some things are old news. Or too painful to respond to. ME has been torturing Buffy for years, and personally, I wish they'd give the girl a break. Buffy getting shot is horrible, being attacked by Spike was horrible, yes. I think we're just so used to feeling bad for Buffy that we hardly notice it anymore.

The End is Here. -- Ender, 20:56:06 05/08/02 Wed

I'm sorry to report this- the bringer of ill tidings, but it must be known Buffy is over after next season. So ends the Odyssey, I for one will be so very sad. Check it out here.

http://www.thecouriermail.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,59 36,4237561%255E3042,00.html

[> Be Careful What You Read -- maddog, 21:17:29 05/08/02 Wed

Yes, that interview says they're done after next season...mainly because that's when the contracts are over. But I recently read an interview Joss did with Wanda over on eonline that states that if he has a good enough story he'll continue...of course he'd have to persuade the actors. He also says he plans each finale so that if they decided to pull the plug then and there then it would be fine...so that just means we'll never know until they finally tell us because the show itself, the storyline, won't tell us.

[> Buffy can survive without NB -- Dochawk, 22:43:30 05/08/02 Wed

Only two people hold the decision here, Joss (although Buffy could continue without him actually) and most importantly SMG. Sarah has said recently she is not opposed to an 8th year, but she needs to decide where she wants to go next.

[> Future Projects -- West, 03:34:36 05/09/02 Thu

I can't help but wonder what the cast will end up doing when the show ends. SMG has a pretty powerful name for the Hollywood circuit and Allison Hannigan is edging in, and I can see her making a splash... But I'm not too sure about the others. I'd love to see Brendon go on to bigger and better things, but I'm not too sure about his range... He seems pretty typecast as Xander (Though I havn't seen Piniata, or whatever that movie he did was).

Mark Blucas has got the Scoobie movie coming out (an irony I'm sure has been touched on already) to show that Buffy can be a decent stepping stone towards feature roles, so we could always see Benson or Trachenberg up there eventually. I'd also love to see Spike hit the big screen, I think he could have some great roles.

Speaking of future projects, does anyone know anything about the rumored 'Ripper' spinoff I've heard Anthony Stewart Head was doing? I'd love to hear more about it, or even better, find out where I can watch some episodes.

[> [> Re: Future Projects -- skeeve, 08:50:36 05/09/02 Thu

Brendon is in Psycho Beach Party. I haven't seen it yet.
Trachenberg is in Can't Be Heaven. I liked it.
What about Ripper? Is there coffee involved?

Have we forgotten that Spike's chip doesn't work when...? (Season 6--PRE- Seeing Red--Spoilers) -- Joie (d V), 22:05:47 05/08/02 Wed

Have we forgotten that Spike's chip doesn't work on Buffy? Spike seems to have forgotten this too. He's blaming the chip in Seeing Red. (I won't give this away in case people that haven't seen Seeing Red yet want to comment.) He blames the chip, yet the chip (which Warren confirmed is up and running) doesn't activate when it comes to matters of Buffy. It seems like this has been overlooked and no posters have been talking about this recently. I'm wondering what this means (particularly in regards to Seeing Red). It seems to me that this fact could be very important.

When it comes to Buffy, Spike is free to be evil. He could (with chip intact) have continued his great tradition of Slayer killing. And to those of you who you argue that he loves her too much to kill her, I would ask...wouldn't all of his problems be solved if he just sired Buffy and made her a vampire too? He could continue to love her and she would be his exclusively. This seems just the kind of selfish decision a "souless, evil thing" (albeit in love with Buffy)would make.

The point is, things are not as simple as many of us have been thinking. This is not just a matter of evil-Spike versus chip-in-head-Spike. When it comes to Buffy we have a Spike that CAN be evil while the chip is in his head.

I'm intrigued to hear people's thoughts on this...

P.S. For those of you that comment with regard to Seeing Red, please don't forget to indicate that its a SR-spoiler in your subject heading. Judging from some of the headings I've seen today, I imagine there are some spoiler free posters that aren't so free anymore.

[> FYI: I re-posted the previous message in response to Traveler's "You know, ME is tricky " (below) - - Joie (d V), 06:52:23 05/09/02 Thu

I couldn't decide where to post the thoughts, found above, in my message: "Have we forgotten that Spike's chip doesn't work when...? (Season 6--PRE-Seeing Red--Spoilers)"
As a result, I started a new thread. It turns out Traveler had posted a similar comment half an hour before I did!...I wish I'd caught that!
As a result, I have also included my post under the "What happened? -Spoilers for Seeing Red" thread (in Response to Traveler's "You know, ME is tricky (spoilers for SR)" )

Sorry about this guys! I'm still getting the hang of the art/rules and regs of posting.

[> Spike's chip - speculation (MAJOR Seeing Red Spoilers) -- shadowkat, 07:19:55 05/09/02 Thu

I agree - isn't it interesting that Spike has never bit
Buffy, that we are aware of?? Not only that but he's the only vamp whose been in such close proximity and hasn't. He certainly could have - I mean in the throes of passion? Or in that bathroom?? In fact I think that may be
what he asked himself in SR: "Why didn't I do it?" Why
didn't I bite her? It's the chip. But the chip is doing
more than that - the chip is tormenting him with what he did which isn't as bad as killing people. "Crawling, squirmy, bits and pieces, silicon in my head, all jiminy
cricket". It's driving him insane. And yet the chip isn't
supposed to work in regards to Buffy - hence the violent
sex. He can beat up Buffy - yet up until that scene,
which disturbed me greatly, he hasn't beaten her, hit her
or bruised her or tried to hurt her in any way. She's beaten up on him, hit him, let her friends do it, but he hasn't reciprocated.

Which brings me to another point that I've been speculating
on - has Spike tried to hit any living thing, humans, even raised his fists? since Wrecked?? He didn't in Gone. He didn't in DMP. He didn't in Dead Things. (demons yes, no
humans.) He didn't in OAFA. He didn't in AYW. He didn't in
HB. He wants to in NA but doesn't instead Xander clocks him one and he backs off because Buffy collaspes. HE didn't
in Entropy - in fact when Xander asks him to fight him, Spike looks apathetic and says "not going to fight you. chip." The only violent act I've seen him do is the bathroom scene and he doesn't hit in that either, exactly.

How about vamping? Well the last time I saw him in full vamp face had to have been....Dead Things. Can't think
of another time.

So I'm wondering about that chip. And I have a theory - it could be wrong - but the more I think about it ...and the more I think about what this show likes to do, I'm convinced we're about to find out the chip is irrelevant.

Another thing that's important.
The crime in the bathroom was a man's crime not a vampires
that's why we can't handle it. Even though they have shown us this scene more than once in Btvs - heck the Pack was far more violent, Buffy literally had to hit Xander over the head with a desk to get him to stop. Not to mention Consequences - when Angel had to throw Faith across the room to get her off Xander. And Harsh Light of Day - very violent, they were pummeling each other. So was the Iniative. But all these acts were shot in soft technicolor and were covered with metaphor and weren't gritty and we didn't care about the abuser or the abuser was possessed..
Tara's death had the same result. It's too real for us. Too literal. It wasn't covered
in metaphor. And I think the same can be said for Spike - the crime he did was the man's...and it is ripping at him.
It wasn't the demon's although it may have come partly from that side of him.

Back to the chip - I think it hasn't been working since
Dead Things and when Spike finds out - he is going to be
shocked to his core. He can't go back to the nice black and
white comfy world of his youth - the world of Season 1-4, where he was the comical BB and neither can the audience.
The show has grown up. The villians are now much worse and
much harder to defeat b/c they are like us.

[> [> Re: Spike's chip - speculation (MAJOR Seeing Red Spoilers) -- Bob Sikkel, 08:36:36 05/09/02 Thu

Hmm, interesting to read this, AFTER I posted "Q: Are we not men?" above. Sorry to inadvertently parrot you, but glad to know someone else sees it in the same vein I do.

bob

[> [> Re: Spike's chip - speculation (MAJOR Seeing Red Spoilers) -- Sophist, 08:46:51 05/09/02 Thu

While I'm still not happy about that scene on several levels, I do think there was one very important aspect to it that hasn't been mentioned. At the end, after Buffy kicks him off her, the look on his face clearly shows that he recognizes that he had done something wrong and was horrified by it. He then returns to his crypt and has flashbacks that again make it clear he is upset by what he has done. Think about that for a minute -- a vampire understands that he has done wrong and is upset by it.

[> [> [> Good point. -- Caroline, 09:47:30 05/09/02 Thu

I think that's a very good point, and definitely one that has been missed by the supporters of the Spike is completely evil view. The writers have gone out of their way to show his moral ambiguity and now seem to be going out of their way to show his humanity - acting in the heat of passion, wracked with guilt and remorse, anger at being pussy-whipped etc. Doesn't sound vampiric to me. Obviously his humanity is not very mature - he wants a grand, passionate, all- consuming love, he wants to make Buffy love him, etc. Well, Buffy's been there and done that with someone else, it had horrible consequences (Becoming, Graduation) and now wants love AND trust.

[> [> [> regretful Spike -- lulabel, 15:08:49 05/09/02 Thu

Yes, I thought it was very significant that Spike was clearly very remorseful after his would-be attack. I can't think of a single other instance where he has ever evidenced either regret or remorse for his actions. In fact, that is one of the characteristics that makes him uniquely Spike - his motto could be "Never Apologize". This was particularly striking in episodes where he screwed up badly - such as Crush or As You Were.

Actually, I take that back, somewhat. At the end of Entropy he did look distinctly abashed, but he still didn't apologize. After Dawn's visit in Seeing Red he did, however, go to see Buffy to APOLOGIZE. Is this a first?

[> [> Re: Spike's chip - speculation (MAJOR Seeing Red Spoilers) -- Ahira, 11:24:58 05/09/02 Thu

There is the possibility that the chip is still working. Going back to the Initiative and what we saw them do, chipping Spike, chipping Riley. Obviously, they had a lot going on with technology/biology interfaces. So, why not add mulitiple redundancy to a chip meant to neuter the hostiles. The only obvious effect so far has been great pain for Spike when he strikes a human. What about something more subtle? The commentaries I have read lately about Spike and describing him as going insane made this thought kinda pop up. Maybe, just maybe, the chip also has a secondary function that suppresses aggressive tendencies in the host. Initially, it might serve to make the hostile stop short of lethal force, but over long the long term, who is to say what could happen from it. And there is Spike, caught in the middle, demon nature wanting to terrorize and kill being suppressed, thus allowing his more human aspects to show more. Basically, tearing him in half. Sort of, the Initiative striking a final blow from the grave. Would support why Spike can bite/kill Buffy and so far has not...just my 2 cents.

[> [> huh, "a man's crime" - very powerful point. -- yuri, 19:22:25 05/09/02 Thu

[> [> Spike's "Humanity" -- Lumina, 19:57:23 05/09/02 Thu

"The crime in the bathroom was a man's crime not a vampires"

Exactly!! Interestingly enough Spike's inability to choose (and sometimes even to differentiate) between good and evil is an age-old human dilemma. Spike is a demon but his problems are recognizably, even representatively, human.

(PS. This is my first posting on this board :) - luvin' all the fascinating discussions!!)

The scene had no meaning...Steven DeKnight interview -- LeeAnn, 04:55:33 05/09/02 Thu

Someone on TWoP reported on a Steven DeKnight interview on thesuccubusclub.com. There is no transcript but KeKnight said that idea for the rape was Marti's and was added about a week before the episode was filmed. About the time when Dead Things was broadcast.

So the entire travesty was Marti's attempt to get the fans back on Buffy's side after the alley scene. Apparently, being part of the "Spike is Evil" club she didn't mind trashing 5 years of his character development.

Also DeKnight is leaving Buffy next year for Angel. The writers are leaving Buffy like it's a sinking ship. Wonder why? Marti? Fury (ick) is going to Angel and I think Petrie is going to Firefly.

Compared to Season 7, Season 6 will probably look like a masterpiece because all the good writers will be gone.

[> Re: The scene had no meaning...Steven DeKnight interview -- Sarah, 06:33:18 05/09/02 Thu

Hi, I'm the one who posted that on TWoP, so I just wanted to clarify that DeKnight said Marti suggested it while they were breaking the story, so about a week before he wrote the script, not a week before it was filmed. Just wanted to make that clear.

What was most interesting about what he said though was that one of the hosts asked him why it was planned so last minute, and his response was that they only plan out the "big" events far in advance. Kind of disturbing to me to think that the writers didn't consider the attempted rape of their heroine one of the "big" events. I think it's safe to say that most of the viewers did.

[> [> Re: The scene had no meaning...Steven DeKnight interview -- Traveler, 06:46:22 05/09/02 Thu

"What was most interesting about what he said though was that one of the hosts asked him why it was planned so last minute, and his response was that they only plan out the "big" events far in advance. "

I would like to hear that interview. Are you sure he wasn't being sarcastic/flippant?

[> [> [> Re: The scene had no meaning...Steven DeKnight interview -- Claire, 07:49:27 05/09/02 Thu

Yes he was being very flip and I would strongly advise you not to visit the Kitten board at the moment. They are absolutely raging at the crass comments made about Tara and the blatent disrespect shown to fans. He was laughing at fans heartbreak and making jokes about Tara's death and the lies he told in the Bronze when assuring fans Tara would be killed off over his dead body. Apparently he has also taken home some unaired W/T love scenes for porn use at home (his words, not mine). He also said Amber Benson was a plot device from the start, hence the publicity stunt of her death. She was fired and never choose to leave. Therefore the Kittens are pretty pissed.
As for the rape scene Steven said it was written in because Marti felt they weren't getting the right "message" across to fans. Buffy's relationship with Spike was never about redemption, Spike was just the bad relationship choice people make in their 20s. They needed to restore sympathy for Buffy and Steven specifically says they wanted to affect Spike's fan base as Buffy is meant to be the most popular character. Hence the rape. The scene was Marti's baby apperently and *gasp* didn't she used to work on a soap. Therefore that is why people are finding the rape out of character on Spike's part. It wasn't written as part of a character arc, just to get a message across to fans in an After-School-Special kind of way. And might I comment on the tastelessness on MEs part in approving Spuffy shirts which are currently the best selling Buffy item. So a load of people have been stuck with a picture of an attempted rapist and his victim in a big red heart. Anyone feel like demanding their money back?
Sorry if I sound bitter but I expected more from Buffy than rape and snuff for sweeps. And the interview is causing a lot of controversy on other boards.

[> [> [> [> And we're getting this guy at AtS! Great :-( (not) -- yabyumpan, 07:58:21 05/09/02 Thu

[> [> [> [> kitten board? -- skeeve, 08:31:37 05/09/02 Thu

[> [> [> [> A few clarifications -- Sarah, 08:32:34 05/09/02 Thu

I actually thought he was very informative. I mean there are people out there calling for his head because he did his job. I think humor's pretty much the only way to deal with it. And he definately didn't say that the attempted rape scene was just to make Buffy more sympathetic. You could draw that conclusion, but he didn't say that. But anyway, here are some of the pertinent quotes with regards to the scene, so you can all judge for yourself.

C: Let me read one specifically from somebody. Why did you choose to
use attempted rape as a means of bringing Spike and Buffy to this point
in the relationship?

SDK: Ah. We had talked a lot about Spike trying to do good but
ultimately he doesn't have a soul and it's a constant struggle. His love
for Buffy and what she was giving him back, even though it was often
abusive, really kind of kept him on that path. But once she absolutely cut
him off... In the previous week's episode you really see him start to turn
there, when he tells her to get out.

C: Right, he has a little bit more self respect at that point.

SDK: Yeah, and you know, there's a lot of self-loathing too. I mean, on
the one hand, he hates himself for what he did to Buffy by sleeping with
Anya, and on the other hand he hates himself for feeling anything for
her.

C: Well that's the thing that's gone through all of this, that he doesn't
understand why he's feeling this way and he hates that he feels this
way.

SDK: Right. So we were talking about how to really show this and push
it in that direction, and it was Marti in the room who said, because we
were talking about Spike going to Buffy to talk to her about this, and she
said--

C: Right, cause it starts very tenderly. It starts as a very nice scene.

SDK: --and she said "you know he should go to talk to her, and it just
gets out of hand. He starts to try, to start up the relationship, to say 'I
know you felt it; I know you could feel it again' and he just won't stop."

C: Okay, so did this seem like a natural progression for Spike to you
guys?

SDK: Yes.

C; To try and hurt her physically, to attempt...

SDK: Well you know to Spike, and this is not to lessen what he tried to
do, which was wrong. In the moment, all he was thinking about is 'she
loves me, and if she just lets herself feel this again, she'll feel it again.'

And then later�

C: How does Mutant Enemy reconcile endorsing a shirt with Buffy and
Spike surrounded by a heart one month before he tries to rape her?

SDK: Uh, I haven't seen the shirt. I have nothing to do with that. I uh,
don't know. I'm not sure. Can I get one?

C/K: We haven't seen it either

SDK: I wouldn't be surprised if there were. But I can tell you that when
that when that shirt was approved and made or something I doubt we
had decided to do this. This was something that was decided when we
were breaking the episode, about a week before I wrote it.

C: Oh, okay. Interesting. That's very interesting.

K: Why? Why was it--

C: Why was it so last minute?

SDK: A lot of the details--

C: Cause that's like a big decision

SDK: Well the actual details of the episode, except for the big major
things--Tara gets shot--are worked out..

C: But this seems like a big thing

SDK:..while we're breaking it. Well we had started setting up that there
was a rift between them, obviously, back in Petrie's episode, "As You
Were." And it just progressed and progressed and progressed. And after
the previous script, the way their scene ended, uhhhh, you know, Marti
just had the idea to take it that next dark step.

C: Why get darker and darker? Why not try to get back to some
semblance of normality toward the end of the season? I mean- -

SDK: There's a lot of reasons coming up. But even more for the
character, that, again, even though Spike tries to play in the human
world, he's not human. He has a lot of dark impulses that are very
difficult to control.

C: Will this continue--if you can tell us--into next season? Because like I
said, I thought that was the most interesting part of the episode last
night was his scene, where he's talking about it. For Spike's character,
next season, does this play a part?

SDK: He's got some stuff to work out.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: A few clarifications -- Claire, 08:52:20 05/09/02 Thu

I am not the only one upset about his comments about Tara. Go visit the cross and stake board and read some off the threads on Steven's tasteless jokes about Tara's death. A few trolls attacking him does not justify showing contempt for your fan base. Young lesbians who came out because of W/Ts positive example are now literally crying themselves sick and want their concerns addressed. Laughing throughout the interview was inapproprite. Amber Benson deserved more than being a plot device to turn Willow evil (he as good as admitted she was a red shirt from the start).
And the kitten board is The Kitten, the witches and the bad wordrobe. A celebration of W/T love.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: A few clarifications -- Kate, 10:23:21 05/09/02 Thu

I for one am furious at his interview. I expect Joss to do some major damage control once the season is over.

Steven DeKnight saying that Tara was only a plot device is a total insult to Amber and her fans. Amber has been the model ambassador for Buffy, she regularly attends conventions, she is working on comics and she always makes very positive comments about the show.

The W/T relationship and the addition of Tara were groundbreaking in many ways. They were the longest term main character gay couple on TV, who were realistic and loving. They have helped many people come to terms with their sexuality and other people address their own prejudices towards gay people and relationships. It may just be a show, but homosexuality is still a tender real life issue and positive portrayals like this make massive inroads towards acceptance.

I can accept that it is neccessary to kill Tara to go *this particular way* way with Willow. But I am very unhappy with the manner of Tara's death.

Tara lost her mother at a young age, then escaped the emotional and implied physical abuse of her father and brother. She then rebuilt her shattered confidence in a mostly loving and caring relationship. She made friends and grew into a mature, grounded young woman. She was killed by a stray bullet from the gun of an immature, violent mysogonist. She was ultimately a victim of everything she overcame.

BTVS does carry heavy messages, the notion of karma being one of the strongest. What the message is supposed to be in this storyline Joss only knows.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: A few clarifications -- derik, 12:36:01 05/09/02 Thu

Amber Benson deserved more than being a plot device to turn Willow evil (he as good as admitted she was a red shirt from the start).

Amber was not a plot device, Tara was, remember the tv/reality divide. And, obviously she was a plot device and a red shirt from the start, else they would have made her a regular on the show at least back in Season Five. (Look how quick Oz became a regular in the past.)

[And I am a big Amber/Tara fan, but I see the logic of where it all went.]

[> [> [> [> [> Thanks so much for the transcript, Sarah. Is there a full version anywhere that you know of? -- Dyna, 10:31:46 05/09/02 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> Not yet. But you can keep checking at www.thesuccubusclub.com -- Sarah, 10:53:35 05/09/02 Thu

[> [> [> [> Uh? Hello! SPOILERS in Claire's posts above! -- I hate spoilers, 10:16:24 05/09/02 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Yeah spoilers for Seeing Red. -- Claire, 10:53:06 05/09/02 Thu

Am I missing something? The whole interview was about the episode that Steven wrote that aired on tuesday. Is it not okay to discuss episodes after they have aired? Not trying to be flip here but I haven't been on the board long and would really like to know?

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Yeah spoilers for Seeing Red. -- maddog, 11:15:48 05/09/02 Thu

I think the point is that some don't get a chance to see the show on Tuesdays(overseas are at least a few episodes behind if not a full season behind) so it's common courtesy to say in the subject that there are spoilers so that those that haven't seen it, won't read it if they don't want to be spoiled.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Oh okay I'm sorry. -- Claire, 11:29:50 05/09/02 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Claire, you spoiled FUTURE eps (spoilers inside) -- I hate spoilers, 13:14:53 05/09/02 Thu

Claire said: "He was laughing at fans heartbreak and making jokes about Tara's death and the lies he told in the Bronze when assuring fans Tara would be killed off over his dead body. ... He also said Amber Benson was a plot device from the start, hence the publicity stunt of her death. She was fired and never choose to leave."

From what happened on screen, Tara isn't necessarily dead at the end of "Seeing Red." If she's dead, I didn't know it yet, and you spoiled that fact.

[> [> [> [> Re: The scene had no meaning...Steven DeKnight interview -- maddog, 10:26:58 05/09/02 Thu

While I agree that all does sound crass I ask you how else they could have gotten the point across that, in the end Spike and Buffy was a bad thing...cause somehow it caught on when the whole point was it was suppose to be one of the many bad choices the Scoobies made this year.

If they hadn't pushed the relationship so much this year it wouldn't have been so bad...but they capitalized on an unexpected fanbase. So yeah, definitely their fault...but in the end, the only way to make not only the Buffy/Spike fans, but also the Spike fans hate him was to make him attempt something so reprehensible that even they're upset with him. Plan worked if you ask me.

[> [> [> [> [> The alternative to hating Spike.. -- LeeAnn, 10:33:35 05/09/02 Thu

in the end, the only way to make not only the Buffy/Spike fans, but also the Spike fans hate him was to make him attempt something so reprehensible that even they're upset with him. Plan worked if you ask me.

It did work with many fans. Myself, I've decided I hate Marti, Joss and ME instead and will never start watching any new show they are associated with.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: The alternative to hating Spike.. -- maddog, 11:09:54 05/09/02 Thu

Then I ask you to answer the other part of my post...what would you have done to make it that harsh of a break? I'm not saying what was done was perfect, but it got the job done. It's easy to criticize ideas...but if you have no alternatives you're no better than they are.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Why hate Spike? -- LeeAnn, 11:37:47 05/09/02 Thu

I don't see why we have to hate Spike. He's the most popular character on the show, why make the fans hate him?
He was traveling down the road to redemption, not always smoothly but steadily. His love for Buffy had led him to become a better person and could have helped him make even more progress. WHY DO WE HAVE TO HATE HIM?

I am particularly angry that Noxon chose a storyline that invalidated his love for Buffy, that made it meaningless, just words from a monster. I want to believe that love is real and matters. I don't like stories that try to show me love is nothing.

I read that the original Willow arc had an abuse of power core but AH didn't want the fans to hate her so went and asked that it be changed..which it was - to the lame magic addiction storyline which gives Willow an out...it wasn't her fault, she's an addict!

That makes me wonder...Given the Buffy hatred after Dead Things did Gellar ask that the story be changed so that Buffy would be sympathetic again? Or maybe she was jealous of JM's popularity?

I see no reason the fans should have to HATE Spike. Spike is us. We are gray. Spike is gray. I think that is why we find him so interesting, aside from JM's talent and charisma. If any of use woke up tomorrow as a vampire, hunger raging, the choice to kill or die, would we act any differently than Spike did? If we woke up tomorrow, in the middle of a famine, and the choice was to kill or die, what would we choose?

None of us are Buffy. But, given the wrong circumstances, most of us could be Spike.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Why hate Spike? -- Claire, 11:52:08 05/09/02 Thu

Sarah Michelle Geller has no problem with Jame's popularity and supported the B/S story from the start. She was the one who pushed for it with Joss as she believed the story had potential. But Marti is writing Spike as the bad boyfriend metaphour as she has openly admitted in interviews Spike reminds her of a bad boyfriend she had in college and she created Riley based on her husband. That is why Spike's sympathy and fan base was deliberately torn into. They aren't following a subtle redemption story but a bad boyfriend story which belongs on a soap opera frankly. They panicked when fans still clamoured for B/S so went for crass unsubtly in order to make their point.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Why hate Spike? (very oblique future spoiler) - - Dochawk, 12:21:10 05/09/02 Thu

LA,

This is gonna be weird coming from me, but I don't hate Spike and my feelings about him didn't change in this episode. What he did was repulsive, but in perfect keeping with his character. thing is, this finally has propelled him to do something, either become something other than a vampire, so that he can love the way love should be (not the star flung love he had for Buffy). And if he becomes somethig other than a vampire, I will forgive him the horrors he did as a vampire, just as I am able to forgive Angel. But at least we have moved forward and out of this horribly abusive and backward going Spuffy relationship.

And I don't know where you got your Willow info, but given what's to come it clearly isn't true. But, I am afraid that ME will lose me as well, because they already killed my favoite character and they are about to destroy my second favorite. They are alienating their 3 biggest fan groups, so they better have something excellent up their sleeves.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Condolences - Spoilers! -- LeeAnn, 12:43:39 05/09/02 Thu

I hadn't thought about that. I know the kittens are torn up but I hadn't thought much about the Willow fans because I believe that Willow will get a Get Out of Jail free card at the end of the season.

Which is gonna suck if she tortures and murders Warren. Vengence doesn't give you permission for that. Except maybe in the Buffyverse.

But my condolences about Tara and about whatever they are about to do to Willow.

A side note, I thought AH was very sweet and funny in her sex scenes with AB. Mischievious. A twinkle in her eye. I've read AH doesn't like doing the gay scenes and was glad that they weren't more explicit but she did a good job anyway.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Condolences - Spoilers! -- Dochawk, 14:20:18 05/09/02 Thu

i think Willow normally gets a get out of jail partly free card, she seems to pay sometimes. I think she may get one this time and this is the time I dont't hink she ought to (for the same reasons, vengeance is not justice). Xander on the other hand ALWAYS gets a get out of jail free card. So many times he is judgemental and horrid (and in teh case of OMwF causing the deaths of innocent people) for which he has yet to pay. Buffy and Angel pay much more than is their due, but I guess thats what happens when your the star. And Spike, he pays the right amount, just doesnt seem to get the good stuff when he actually deserves it.

[> [> About believing writers... -- shadowkat, 06:53:21 05/09/02 Thu

Would like to remind you of something Joss said a long time ago - don't listen to the writers, listen to the story.
My writers lie. Trust the story.

They do. All the time. In OMWF he has Marti lying to a Traffic cop about a parking ticket. And he has David
Fury exclaiming how he got the mustard out.

James Marsters stated on several occassions that they float
fake scripts around to freak out the actors and to trick
people trying to spoil us.

Personally - I think that scene was planned much further
back - and they used it to reinstate their thesis that
Spike and Buffy were a fatal attraction. I'm not sure why
DeKnight said this...but it feels fishy to me. Just as some of the other statements do. Why? Because the story they
are telling is the opposite.

(shrugs) Could be wrong...but some of the things I've read
that they say really don't fit.

[> [> [> Thanks shadowcat -- Ete, 15:40:10 05/09/02 Thu

I'm happy to see I'm not the only one who repeats like a mantra : Writer lie, writers lie, writers lie :)

[> [> Re: The scene had no meaning...Steven DeKnight interview -- maddog, 09:51:13 05/09/02 Thu

Had he actually accomplished it, I'd say yes, big event. But where he only attempted it...and then regreted the situation...I'd say middle of the road.

[> Re: The scene had no meaning...Steven DeKnight interview -- yabyumpan, 06:59:37 05/09/02 Thu

I was going to start a new thread with this but it's partly covered here so I'll just carry on: I was going to mention about Steve DeKnight going to AtS but that's been done above ; more important (for me), is that Tim Minear is leaving Angel for Firefly. This really upsets me, I think TM is the writer that really groks the character of Angel and has written some of the best episodes.
It does seem as if there's a game of musical chairs happening in the offices of ME, wonder who's playing the music???

[> Re: The scene had no meaning...Steven DeKnight interview -- maddog, 08:23:33 05/09/02 Thu

I think you have too little faith in Joss. Remember, he still oversees everything. If it's THAT bad he'll fix it. I have no doubt.

[> Fury & Petrie are going! They are the two best writers. -- JCC, 14:26:04 05/09/02 Thu

[> Re: Steven DeKnight interview (spoilers for SR) -- ravenhair, 16:51:53 05/09/02 Thu

I listened to the interview last night but didn't find anything controversial in Steven DeKnight's statements. Lots of people use humor when they're under pressure. I'll miss Amber Benson but agree Tara's death was necessary to move Willow's story forward. In fairness to Mr.DeKnight, any animosity towards Steven regarding the choice to kill Tara should be directed at Joss since he was the one who made the decision and is the one responsible for how the scene played out (blood on Willow's shirt et al); and Marti was responsible for the B/S bathroom scene.

Even though I'm upset over the bathroom scene, I can see the necessity to remind viewers of Spike's dark impulses. For all my love for the character, he's still a vampire after all. We may be able to excuse shady schemes such as the demon eggs, but we can't deny a line was crossed in Seeing Red. Yet, that doesn't mean Spike is beyond forgiveness. I felt the more relevant scene came afterward in Spike's crypt. Spike's total breakdown was important because for the first time he felt real guilt, whether he realized it or not, which is supposedly impossible for an evil soulless thing. The fact that he takes it upon himself to seek change, regardless of his motivation, gives me hope for Spike's redemption.

The most interesting comment I thought Steven DeKnight made was regarding the alley scene in Dead Things. Yes, Spike saved Buffy from turning herself in to the authorities but he did it for himself, not for her. It's a possessive love. While I agree, I think the same can be said of Buffy. She has made Spike her sex slave - how much more possessive can you get? She uses Spike's love & loyalty for her own selfish needs while keeping him emotionally at arms length.

I'm very sorry that Steven DeKnight is leaving BtVS. Dead Things and Seeing Red were stellar episodes. Fury is supposed to be a guest on The Succubus Club next week and I look forward to what he has to say.

Spike's coat - symbolism (re SR) -- Cydney, 05:08:45 05/09/02 Thu

I haven't seen this mentioned elsewhere - hope it's not redundant.

Throughout season 6, Spike's leather coat (his trophy for killing slayer #2) has been with him - on him - almost all the time (at least when he's dressed!). I noticed particularly that he never took his coat off at Buffy's birhtday party despite the fact they were all there for a long time.

At the time I thought it was because he didn't feel at home or comfortable in Buffy's house.

Yet in SR, he leaves his coat downstairs when he goes to talk to Buffy, and actually leaves it behind. He leaves Sunnydale without it.

Granted, it may be nothing at all, but I couldn't help but wonder if it is symbolic of Spike leaving aspects of his past behind. I am unspoiled - and wish to stay that way - but I wonder if it was some sort of hint.

Thoughts?

[> Re: Spike's coat sorry spoilers above if you haven't seen SR -- Cydney, 05:31:39 05/09/02 Thu

Sorry.

[> Re: Spike's coat - my two cents -- shadowkat, 06:43:36 05/09/02 Thu

Was discussing this with a friend last night and he said
something very interesting: "it was shedding his skin".

I think that's it exactly. Spike doesn't even appear to
know it's gone.

But that it is - is terribly important. They have made a point of having him wear that coat constantly this season and last season. To the point that there were a bunch of us about to take up a collection to get him a new one - we were sooo sick of that coat. LOL!

Notice a few other things different about Spike last night:
no jewelry. The vamp has been wearing a ton of jewelry lately, I saw none. (Maybe I missed something.) He's dressed in a long-sleeved black t-shirt and black jeans and his hair is stark white. The lighting in the crypt is subdued, and bathroom lighting is harsh - so harsh that when you look at Spike, he looks like a black and white vamp in bathroom and he looks like a black and white photo in the crypt, washed out - similar to the sideshow freak in Giles' dream in Restless. He even more or less refers to himself as a "freak" - it won't let me be a monster and I can't be a man - I'm nothing. (If we compare this to his speech to Dawn in Tough Love of Season 5 - he says, I'm not good, but I'm okay. Here he is saying the reverse.)Back to black and white. They've been
using the "black and white" metaphor a lot this year - every show you see on his tv set is in black and white, when they show it - either in Bargaining or All the Way.
They also do it with lighting, wardrobe at times and
mostly in reference to Spike. Maybe reading too much into
it - not sure. But since it spans more than one episode
I think it's important. If it was only in one - I'd dismiss it.

But his jacket is mentioned not only in more than one episode, it has been used since School HArd - that dang jacket represents BB Spike. The jacket is Spike. Spike the BB. Every time he entered or left Sunnydale he's in it. In Something Blue when he escapes Giles, he stops long enough
to grab it. He rarely takes it off. He didn't take it off when he and Anya had sex in Entropy. He doesn't take it
off in OAFA, he only appears to be without it in his crypt, outside his crypt it's on. The fact that he took it off before finding her in the bathroom, then left without it
is interesting. My take is he was so upset, that he literally didn't think about it. But I also think, the writers are telling us something.

1. Spike left his jacket
2. Spike doesn't seem to realize it. Or acknowledge it.

Why? Shedding a skin? Shedding the BB? Hmmm.

[> [> Okay Wow....See how I should have seen that? I am a costumer dangit! grr.... -- Lyonors, 06:55:26 05/09/02 Thu

[> [> Good Points ShadowKat..except... -- LeeAnn, 08:26:38 05/09/02 Thu

Very good points as usual.

This was my take on it when I first heard he had left his duster.

The duster is Spike's trophy, a talisman of his triumph over the New York Slayer and Slayers in general, including Buffy. Sex with Buffy was Spike's conquest of another Slayer. Spike could no longer kill Slayers but he could still prove himself by doing something even more dangerous (" I knew. I knew the only thing better than killing a slayer would be f-"). His duster is a reminder to us, and to him, that he was the Slayer of Slayers. It's like something between a hunter keeping the pelt of the most dangerous animal he's killed, a warrior keeping the scalp of his most deadly enemy, and a serial murderer keeping trophies of his victims. Spike has kept that trophy for a long time. When Spike forgets his duster it might be a symbol that he will soon forget how to be bad or might be a symbol that he will never again have a physical relationship with the Slayer he loves. On the hopeful side, Spike can never be redeemed as long as he has that coat, that skin of a dead Slayer. If he's permanently separated from it, that is probably a good sign for his redemption.

But I don't feel like that anymore because I don't think Marti Noxon and the writers are deep enough to come up with anything that symbolic. Not after that lame rape scene. We're all just fanwanking.

Screw Marti!

[> [> [> Re: Good Points ShadowKat.. -- alcibiades, 09:22:33 05/09/02 Thu

I liked Shadowkat's ideas about shedding the skin of the BB, an interesting image. Agree about the similarity between the black and white Spike in the bathroom scene and the black and white side show freak Spike selling himself to Hollywood in Restless, unable to participate in the real drama -- was thinking exactly the same thing myself.

I rewatched the bathroom scene last night with that in mind. The one color tone in that scene is the gray-green tub mat. Buffy of course is in light grey which is also important -- she ain't wearing a white robe in that scene. She bears some responsibility for the event that transpires. This feeling, btw, is supported by Steve De Knight's comments at some question and answer session last night where he says explicitly that Buffy has been treating Spike like a thing, as an object, not like a person, all year. (Steve De Knight wrote Seeing Red and DT)

My idea about the coat is that leaving it behind at Buffy's house is tantamount to conceding that Buffy won. Between them, she has the victory. At the moment he leaves it behind, he's beaten. The contest is over. (Of course he didn't know that Xander would end up fingering it.)

But, Spike, being Spike, doesn't stay down very long. By the end of the crypt scene with Clem, he already has plans for the next round. Yet since Spike is Spike, the plans are not likely to go at all the way he imagines. Which is good because for the first time all year, effected by all the others and their constant scorn, Spike has finally entered his phase of retrograde motion. He can't bear the moments of piercing empathy he has for Buffy, his victim, as he attempts to force her to take him back. He can't face down what that says about himself, so he returns to the comfort of conspiring about how to return chipless as his Big Bad persona.

The really interesting thing about this to me is that it is so delusional. Spike had no problem unravelling the self- centeredness of Buffy's delusion inspired interpretation of Sunnydale in NA, the part that told her everybody in it was a pawn in her dream, there solely to comfort her, that all of their weaknesses kept them by her side. Spike saw immediately that in this scheme the point of the chip was to soften him up enough to love her. And he rejected this worldview utterly. Even in Normal Again, just two episodes back, he knew he loved Buffy and was confidant of his own persona. Now, however, that moment of empathy with his victim as he hurts her so utterly upsets the norms of his world that he accepts the framework of this delusion. The chip is his weakness, if it were gone, he would not be softened up enough to love Buffy -- things would go back to the way they were supposed to be -- to the self he used to love -- slayer, vampire, vampire kills slayer.

As I said, I'm not expecting this to work out the way he thinks it will in that moment of retrograde motion.

I'm also wondering if we are going to see a thematic reprise of bits of Family in the finale or whenever Spike next reappears with the Scoobies.

[> [> [> [> Very well-expressed, alcibiades! "Retrogade motion" it is. -- Dyna, 10:26:53 05/09/02 Thu

[> [> [> Re: Good Points ShadowKat..except... -- shadowkat, 10:17:42 05/09/02 Thu

You need to see past that scene. Honestly I've seen worse
on Btvs - The PAck was just as bad as was Faith's scene
with Xander in Consequences. And yes they are that deep.
As we will soon discover.

[> [> [> [> Re: Good Points ShadowKat..except... -- maddog, 10:49:41 05/09/02 Thu

I have to disagree. I'd say those were worse because The Pack was a bunch of uncaring Hiyenas and Faith was on a moral path to hell. We thought Spike might have some good in him...or at least a good streak. So to see him take it that far was a surprise.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Good Points ShadowKat..except... -- shadowkat, 11:36:19 05/09/02 Thu

Not to me, but maybe that's because I've seen good people
do horrible acts both on television, movies and in real life. We are about to see Willow do some horrible acts.
It doesn't mean they can't be redeemed.

I remember watching St. Elsewhere years ago and hating
the serial rapist storyline. They had made this doctor
I liked into a horrible rapist wearing a mask etc...it was an incredibly fascinating story and hard to watch.

This type of story has been done many times on a range of
shows and never is it as black and white as it appears.
Rape isn't any more than murder or any other horrible crime.
Therein lies the problem. And why it horrifies us.
It should. What I find interesting about SR - is it also horrified Spike. And that wasn't something I ever expected.

[> [> Re: Spike's coat - my two cents -- Ronia, 08:49:06 05/09/02 Thu

I agree, although he's leaving town (he thinks) to regain his former persona it's possible that he has already left it behind. I think he craves resolution and I don't think he cares at this point whether it leads him to embrace humanity or provides only a way off of the leash. For all of Spikes insight into the natures of people around him, he doesn't much analyize himself. I viewed the chip implantation as a rape/castration, either way he was grabbed off of the street, drugged and invaded. I consider that significant. I guess we'll see.

[> [> Re: Spike's coat - my two cents -- Deeva, 09:32:12 05/09/02 Thu

I agree that Spike is shedding his skin/persona/so on, but I think it's also an indication that he is removing his armor. I know that physically Spike doesn't need armor but maybe psychologically he needed it. For all his bravado and posturing, underneath all that Spike's just a lonely, approval seeking guy.

The leather is a trophy of his Slayer slaying days but he is not that Spike anymore. Just like how some atheletes still occasionally wear their jerseys to remind them of their glory days, Spike does, too. But there comes a time where, either consciously or not, you just stop wearing it. It stays in the closet or the bureau, tucked away. It was a part of who you were but not it's not who you are now or will be.

It seems fitting to me that Spike removed his coat to face Buffy. Buffy herself is just in a robe, and most likely with not much else on underneath. Spike seems like the type of person not bothered by his own nudity so in essence, without his armor, he is just as exposed as Buffy is. They are on somewhat equal footing here.

For so long Spike has placed quite a bit of importance in his coat, all the small moments and comments that would most likely not be noticed otherwise (except for all of us out there rewinding and rewatching EVERYTHING). It is signifigant that his removal of the coat and leaving it behind, seems so natural.

For some people, leaving something so important behind, it is a promise of eventual return. A reminder of who was there.

[> [> Re: Spike's coat - my two cents -- redcat, 09:54:23 05/09/02 Thu

Remember Spike saying this to Buffy in NA:
"You're addicted to the misery. It's why you won't tell your pals about us. Might actually have to be happy if you did. They'd either understand and help you, god forbid ... or drive you out ... where you can finally be at peace, in the dark. With me. Either way, you'd be better off for it, but you're too twisted for that. (pauses) Let yourself live, already. And stop with the bloody hero trip for a sec. We'd all be the better for it."

Now imagine Buffy saying this to Spike after his speech to Clem in SR:
"You're addicted to being the one who causes the misery. It's why you won't tell yourself the truth about what loving me has done to you. Might actually have to be happy if you did. You'd either have to understand and accept yourself, god forbid ... or drive me out ... so you can finally be at peace, in the dark. Alone. Either way, you'd be better off for it, but you're too twisted for that. (pauses) Let yourself be undead, already. And stop with the bloody Bad Boy trip for a sec. We'd all be the better for it."

[> [> [> Very nice turn-around....perhaps prescient! -- clg0107, 09:58:29 05/09/02 Thu

[> Leaving something important to you may mean you want to come back for it. -- Lilac, 06:59:11 05/09/02 Thu

[> Re: Spike's coat - symbolism (re SR) -- Ronia, 08:34:14 05/09/02 Thu

No, I think you've got something there, I noticed the coat thing too, but couldn't put my finger on exactly where they were going with it. I think it's significant that he approached her as a human, not vamped.

How Buffy really reacts to Attempted Rape -- LeeAnn, 08:20:09 05/09/02 Thu

The rape scene was out of character for Spike or so I believe. But it was even more out of character for Buffy because we've seen her almost get raped before. Remember the attempted gang rape of Buffy by the monsters/swim team in Go Fish.

Buffy: So, what, you're just gonna feed me to 'em?

Coach Marin: Oh, they've already had their dinner. But boys have other needs.

Cut to the sewers. The camera pans around the pool of water. One of the monsters pokes its head out of the water behind a pillar and observes Buffy. The camera continues until it stops on her.

Buffy: Great. This is just what my reputation needs: that I did it with the entire swim team.

Cut to below. Buffy keeps looking for the sea monsters. One suddenly rises up behind her and lunges at her. She quickly grabs it and throws it aside. Another one comes for her, and she deflects it into the wall, but loses her balance and falls underwater. One grabs her leg, and she kicks out. She grabs it and throws it off of her. Standing again, she grabs another one's arm as it attacks her and flips it over into the wall.

Cut below. Buffy knocks and flips the monsters away as they each come for her in turn. Soon they've had enough, and the three of them surround her and slowly close in.

Cut above. Xander steps over to the hole and looks down. When he sees what's going on below he quickly lies down and reaches into the hole with his arm.

Xander: Buffy, hurry! Your hand!

Buffy looks up and sees him there. She takes a breath, crouches down into the water and leaps up the ten feet to grab Xander's hand.

Xander: Hold on!

He starts to pull for all he's worth. Below the creatures paw at Buffy's legs, trying to pull her back down. Two of them grab hold, and she kicks and flails to shake them off. The monsters can't keep hold of her, and fall into the water.
Buffy: Pull!

Xander: Hold on!

He pulls again, but he's not as strong as he thinks and it goes slowly. One of the monsters leaps up and grabs Buffy's leg again. She kicks it with her free leg and it goes tumbling down. Xander pulls again as Buffy raises her legs up out of the creature's reach. Slowly she emerges from the hole and climbs onto the floor, coughing and panting.

Buffy: Thanks.

This is how Buffy reacts to a gang rape. By monsters yet. Some screaming but mostly fighting and some quipping. No crying. No begging.

That is the Buffy we saw for 6 years. Who the poor girl in that bathroom was I don't know.

[> Re: How Buffy really reacts to Attempted Rape -- Ronia, 08:30:05 05/09/02 Thu

maybe someone has already mentioned... that the attempted rape scene in go fish was uncomplicated, straight forward rape between several guys and one girl
who have no relationship otherwise.

[> [> Re: How Buffy really reacts to Attempted Rape -- Cheryl, 08:47:35 05/09/02 Thu

My thought on this is that Buffy has admitted she has feelings for Spike. Their sexual relationship before the bathroom scene was consensual. While she doesn't trust Spike, there has been a sort of mutual respect between them. This scene blew that out of the water. She may have always known that the possibility existed that Spike would really try to hurt her someday, but didn't want to believe it.

I don't think Spike meant to hurt her - he was desperate and confused. I also think she may feel somewhat responsible for his feelings towards her. This isn't how she wanted their relationship, however you want to define it, to end up. She's confused too - I think she was surprised at her own reaction to seeing Spike & Anya together and is trying to deal with that on top of everything else.

Cheryl

[> [> Re: How Buffy really reacts to Attempted Rape -- LeeAnn, 08:50:51 05/09/02 Thu

maybe someone has already mentioned... that the attempted rape scene in go fish was uncomplicated, straight forward rape between several guys and one girl who have no relationship otherwise.

So Buffy cried and begged because the guy hurting her and trying to rape her was Spike?

Actually I agree but I've been shot down for having that opinion.

I think because it was Spike hurting her, trying to force her, that was why she broke down and cried and begged.

Because...she had trusted Spike

Because... she had had feelings for him.

Because...his attack was such a betrayal.

Because....she loved him?

I never believed that Buffy loved Spike until the rape scene. But the only explanation I can find for our superhero begging and crying is if she loves Spike. That would make his attack unbearably painful and shocking to the point that she broke down emotionally instead of just fighting him. That might make an attack by Spike more painful than, say, a gang rape by three monsters in Go Fish.

On the other hand maybe it's just lousy writing of Marti Noxon's lousy idea.

[> [> [> Re: How Buffy really reacts to Attempted Rape -- maddog, 08:56:18 05/09/02 Thu

I'm not sure love is the right word...seems more like some sort of respect stemming from the end of last season. I just think she never thought he'd go through with it(even though she probably always thought it a long shot).

[> [> [> Re: How Buffy really reacts to Attempted Rape -- Ronia, 08:57:23 05/09/02 Thu

Yes, she's begging and crying, and he's not vamped, and I don't think it started out as a rape. I think it built to that crescendo. Once it did, Buffy stopped trying to appeal toSpikes reasoning which lets face it was in the trunk by then. BUT, she also didn't stake him. So whatever that means...

[> Re: How Buffy really reacts to Attempted Rape -- maddog, 08:49:04 05/09/02 Thu

You're missing the whole point. This was personal to Buffy. For a brief moment she remembered the Spike of old. And i think it scared her. The Spike she was used to was the lovesick, yet still iritating vampire. I think she was just so stunned by his actions that he caught her off guard and it took just a little longer for that fight instinct to kick in.

And that Spike you saw was a vampire on his last leg. He was tired of Buffy being in control of the relationship. Tired of his heart breaking over her. So that was his last, ill advised, ditch effort to take control. Of course that's not the Spike you know...cause he's finally decided he wants a more permanent solution...whatever that may be.

[> Re: How Buffy really reacts to Attempted Rape -- yez, 09:44:38 05/09/02 Thu

I agree that the pleading, etc., are easier to understand if you consider the context of their relationship where rough sex play was normal. At first, her crying, pleading and "ow- ing" really bothered me, too. It felt like it was uncharacteristic of her, and was just thrown in there to evoke our emotions -- blatant manipulation.

When he first approaches her, she's not really fighting him off. And even after they fall, I think, she's saying "No, Spike, I'm hurt. Ow!" To me, that sounds like, "Not tonight, honey, I have a headache." In other words, if she wasn't hurt, would she have allowed his aggressive advances like she always had before despite her protestations? Earlier in the season, there's a scene where they're on the catwalk in the Bronze, and he starts touching her, she says, "No, Spike, stop," he says "Make me," and she doesn't stop him, she doesn't "make him stop."

It made me wonder if her crying and pleading weren't necessarily about being attacked, but about not wanting to fall back into the pattern with Spike. In the past, she's said no, and he's drawn her in anyway because he makes her confront her pull to him. And so it's almost like she's tired and hurt (physically and emotionally) and vulnerable, and she's begging him not to make her break her promise to herself and her friends that it's over, not just about having nonconsesual sex.

I mean, let's face it, there was no way in hell Spike could've actually pulled that off. He had a tiger by the tail, holding her arms down. The minute he let one slip so he could "unleash" himself, he was going to be pummelled, period. If ME's intent was to show Spike really losing it outside of the context of their violent sexual relationship, that could have easily been accomplished by having Buffy get knocked in the head when she fell; a dazed, semi-conscious slayer would have been the real test for someone intent on getting sex with or without consent. But, they couldn't do that, because the Spike we've come to know over the last couple of seasons wouldn't have assaulted a clearly wounded Buffy -- he would've tried to help her.

So I think that ME sets it up this way on purpose not to villainize Spike -- which I and others feared might be the case -- but to show the awful state of their relationship, what the lack of honesty wrought, how much pain they're both in, etc.

At least that's what I hope they're doing, because I won't be able to swallow making this out to be a simple thing -- "Well, there's Spike's true colors, he's plainly just evil and can't get around that, Buffy was right to treat him the way she did all along and is in no way responsible for what led up to that misunderstanding and her behavior towards him."

I'm a big believer in no means no, but when "previously on Buffy" Buffy's no's have been followed by "Yes, yes, yeeesssss!", a misunderstanding like this is nearly inevitable. In this specific case of sexual assault, both Buffy and Spike bear responsibility for what happened, IMHO. And if Buffy never has to face up to that, it's really going to piss me off. This has nothing to do with Spike being a vampire, being evil, etc. If it were that simple, he wouldn't have been deterred so easily; since when has one kick across a room ever been all it's taken?

Buffy should be f-ing shaken up by what happened because she should realize that not only did Spike not immediately know that she really meant no this time, but she couldn't immediately tell that he didn't know or didn't intend to stop because of the way they'd foreplay. She was so repressed, so intent on never falling in love with him or trusting him or liking him or getting comfortable with him, that they never took the steps that people who were having an honest, trusting relationship would take if they wanted to get into that kind of play, like creating a "safe word," for starters.

I just hope that at some point, Buffy has to deal with her shit and faces up to stuff, and stops acting like it's all the evil vampire's fault. Even though the news broke about Spike, she's still being dishonest about it -- even to herself, I think.

yez

[> [> Terrific stuff! -- Caroline, 10:03:02 05/09/02 Thu

[> Re: How Buffy really reacts to Attempted Rape -- Deeva, 09:48:11 05/09/02 Thu

The poor girl in the bathroom was someone being attacked by a "friend". She never really thought that this particular thing would occur, especially from this person. There was a mutual understanding between them. She is mainly trying to shake off the shock that has set in, that someone she knows would do this to her. Especially after she has just conceded to a point that this person has been trying to get her to see.

The two scenes are not the same. Two very, very different things, actually.

[> Re: How Buffy really reacts to Attempted Rape -- yez, 09:53:26 05/09/02 Thu

I agree that the pleading, etc., are easier to understand if you consider the context of their relationship where rough sex play was normal. At first, her crying, pleading and "ow- ing" really bothered me, too. It felt like it was uncharacteristic of her, and was just thrown in there to evoke our emotions -- blatant manipulation.

When he first approaches her, she's not really fighting him off. And even after they fall, I think, she's saying "No, Spike, I'm hurt. Ow!" To me, that sounds like, "Not tonight, honey, I have a headache." In other words, if she wasn't hurt, would she have allowed his aggressive advances like she always had before despite her protestations? Earlier in the season, there's a scene where they're on the catwalk in the Bronze, and he starts touching her, she says, "No, Spike, stop," he says "Make me," and she doesn't stop him, she doesn't "make him stop."

It made me wonder if her crying and pleading weren't necessarily about being attacked, but about not wanting to fall back into the pattern with Spike. In the past, she's said no, and he's drawn her in anyway because he makes her confront her pull to him. And so it's almost like she's tired and hurt (physically and emotionally) and vulnerable, and she's begging him not to make her break her promise to herself and her friends that it's over, not just about having nonconsesual sex.

I mean, let's face it, there was no way in hell Spike could've actually pulled that off. He had a tiger by the tail, holding her arms down. The minute he let one slip so he could "unleash" himself, he was going to be pummelled, period. If ME's intent was to show Spike really losing it outside of the context of their violent sexual relationship, that could have easily been accomplished by having Buffy get knocked in the head when she fell; a dazed, semi-conscious slayer would have been the real test for someone intent on getting sex with or without consent. But, they couldn't do that, because the Spike we've come to know over the last couple of seasons wouldn't have assaulted a clearly wounded Buffy -- he would've tried to help her.

So I think that ME sets it up this way on purpose not to villainize Spike -- which I and others feared might be the case -- but to show the awful state of their relationship, what the lack of honesty wrought, how much pain they're both in, etc.

At least that's what I hope they're doing, because I won't be able to swallow making this out to be a simple thing -- "Well, there's Spike's true colors, he's plainly just evil and can't get around that, Buffy was right to treat him the way she did all along and is in no way responsible for what led up to that misunderstanding and her behavior towards him."

I'm a big believer in no means no, but when "previously on Buffy" Buffy's no's have been followed by "Yes, yes, yeeesssss!", a misunderstanding like this is nearly inevitable. In this specific case of sexual assault, both Buffy and Spike bear responsibility for what happened, IMHO. And if Buffy never has to face up to that, it's really going to piss me off. This has nothing to do with Spike being a vampire, being evil, etc. If it were that simple, he wouldn't have been deterred so easily; since when has one kick across a room ever been all it's taken?

Buffy should be f-ing shaken up by what happened because she should realize that not only did Spike not immediately know that she really meant no this time, but she couldn't immediately tell that he didn't know or didn't intend to stop because of the way they'd foreplay. She was so repressed, so intent on never falling in love with him or trusting him or liking him or getting comfortable with him, that they never took the steps that people who were having an honest, trusting relationship would take if they wanted to get into that kind of play, like creating a "safe word," for starters.

I just hope that at some point, Buffy has to deal with her shit and faces up to stuff, and stops acting like it's all the evil vampire's fault. Even though the news broke about Spike, she's still being dishonest about it -- even to herself, I think.

yez

[> Hey,hey,hey! Spoil much in the headline? -- SingedCat, 10:36:03 05/09/02 Thu

[> Re: How Buffy really reacts to Attempted Rape -- Lyonors, 11:58:32 05/09/02 Thu

Buffy's reaction was not that surprising really, if you consider most date-rape victims, I stated that I am one in another thread, and I didnt exactly react in a way that is characteristic of my personality. I was in HUGE denial. "Didn't happen, I was too drunk to have my memory be reliable about it, He wouldn't have done that to me, its just my imagination" It took me a good while to admit what happened. As I am sure it will take Buffy some time, not that ME is gonna give her any time to deal with it, being all woundy with the bullet and whatnot....

sorry, just my thoughts on post-(attempted)rape attitudes.

Ly

[> [> Re: How Buffy really reacts to Attempted Rape -- LeeAnn, 12:08:12 05/09/02 Thu

I'm scared to relate Buffy's attempted rape to anyone's reality.

But I'm pretty damn sure if I had superhero powers and great pain tolerance, I would not be begging and crying to someone trying to rape me. The only crying I might be doing would be over their corpse.

That was what is so horrible about ME using this scene and in making so realistic that real rape victims are disturbed. Buffy doesn't live in the Real World and her rape would not be like a real rape. It is evil of them to portray it that way.

[> [> [> Re: How Buffy really reacts to Attempted Rape -- Rob, 13:49:22 05/09/02 Thu

"It is evil of them to portray it that way."

Would you rather that they have trivialized rape by making it a lighter scene of Buffy easily pummeling Spike? Reading your analyses, I don't think we even saw the same scene! Buffy was hurt in the graveyard, more than usual. When Spike started to attack her, Buffy was not ready for a fight. She was even starting a bath, probably to ease the pain in her back. Buffy was not in her top strength when this happened. What makes this scene so meaningful is the fact that it is possible that Spike would have been able to go through with it...Not likely, but possible. This "scared girl" is this way, b/c she is having attempted rape enacted upon her by a recent ex-boyfriend, someone she knew was dangerous but never believed would hurt her. Buffy's tears were tears of shock, anger, and, yes a little fear, for, at the start, she couldn't defend herself. It seemed like one big burst of desperate strength she got when she finally knocked him off.

As I said in my post higher up on the page, I think that your problem with the whole situatuion is that you're being blindsided by the idea that all rapists are evil. The fact is that all rapists--all people--are complex and multi- layered. Very few people, except maybe Hitler, have no redeeming qualities. There are situatuions where people considered "good" raped somebody, and couldn't believe they'd done it after it happened. The world is not so simple.

Rob

Q: Are we not men? (spoilers galore for SR) -- Bob Sikkel, 08:26:11 05/09/02 Thu

That scene in the bathroom was particularly disturbing because in it Spike was utterly 'human'. He was in no way that I remember acting as an evil predator (and remember that, with Buffy, the chip seems to be completely dysfunctional). Rather, he was a desperate, unhappy, lonely man trying to reach his love. Granted, his approach was (as you might expect) horribly misguided, but he was not trying to HURT Buffy, either physically or emotionally. For that matter, it was also Buffy at her most human- tired, stiff and sore, and weak- or at least not her usual "buff Buff".

The implications for each character and for the theme of the show are interesting (but I'm not going to get into all of them).

Now, later in his crypt, Spike is reeling from it all. He says "What have I done?" in a way that, to me, shows that he really understands the horror of his behavior. And that is disturbing (to him) in a number of ways:

He is not used to or comfortable with this turmoil of emotion, grieving over his separation from the one he loves, both physically and emotionally, since he realises- perhaps for the first time, fully- that Buffy DOES NOT love him, and perhaps CANNOT, whereas before he always carried the hope that even if she didn't, she would eventually come round.

He realises that she cannot love him for very good reason, and that it is his fault, not hers. Whereas he seems to have very good insight into human behavior and emotion (not
that he's at all sympathetic), and as Buffy herself observed ("...and for some reason I can't fool Spike") he's particularly attuned to her, he's been quite blind about the
realities of Buffy's feelings concerning himself. I think now he suddenly has some understanding of it from Buffy's point of view.

Maybe I'm going out on a limb, here, but I think he also feels genuinely remorseful that he has hurt Buffy- both by having sex with Anya and by attempting to rape her. He
realises that he is out of control, and that he has acted awfully.

That last part, especially, REALLY frightens him. He's Spike, the Big-Bad, the evil killer. He had somehow come to grips with the fact that he was on a leash- that wasn't
his doing, he was "an innocent victim". But now here he is actually feeling remorse for just the sort of heinous behavior he's supposed to delight in! Where the hell has he
come to? And though he may not consciously realise it yet (even if he said something very like it), the real question is, "Who am I?" He's clearly no longer the hunter he once took pride in being (though his image of himself wasn't necessarily the sum total of who he really was even then), but he's also not the human he'd been starting to feel like. Heck, he's nearly back to being the love-lost guy he was before he became a vampire in the first place. But the problem is, I don't think he's sure which one he wants to be anymore- for all the misery of being "human", there was something there that he missed as a happy-go-lucky vampire. Perhaps maturity is stalking Spike, too.

Now, as for where he's off to, I'll propose some possibilities (expecting the truth to be none of them), but I won't say which I actually think is true (and these are what Spike's idea might be, not what the omniscient writers' plan is):

1) He's going to try to get the chip out of his head, literally or figuratively, so that he can get back to being the Big Bad. (though if this is the case I'm certain it won't play out the way Spike imagines, and I don't mean because it never does...)

2) He's going to try to get the chip out of his head, so that he can prove to himself and ultimately to Buffy that it isn't just the chip that makes him who he is NOW.

3) He's going to try to get the chip fixed so that he can't hurt Buffy either.

4) He's going to LA to have an encounter-group experience with Angel, since he's the only one that might possibly be able to relate to his predicament. (Hey, its a long shot, but it would make for a great scene, wouldn't it?- He could do a song for Lorne!)

5) He's going back to Dru.

6) None of the above.

bob

(sorry for the odd line breaks)

[> LOL. I just posted the same point below. You said it better. -- Sophist, 08:51:00 05/09/02 Thu

[> Great post -- dream of the consortium, 09:06:41 05/09/02 Thu

By the way, re: Buffy being at her most human, one of the details I liked best last night was the way she was injured. She smashed into a stone with her lower back. You could really imagine how that would hurt - not some superhuman level of impact, but just hitting a vulnerable spot in your back. So she pours herself a hot tub. It seemed very human - and rather adult, the aches and pains of an older person, not a teenager. She also looked older last night; in at least one scene with Dawn, she looked distinctly maternal. I wonder, if they do follow-up with movies, how will they handle an aging Slayer?

[> Spike's Chip -- Darby, 09:38:26 05/09/02 Thu

Bob, your points are too good to address, I've got nothing useful to add.

But you got me thinking about chip removal -

Spike's a vampire, with a very short list of vulnerabilities. All he really needs is to climb into a bathtub with a TV set to burn out that chip. Hardly seems worth a trip out of town, but it would make a funny scene if this was pointed out to him AFTER a long involved quest...

[> [> Re: Spike's Chip -- Bob Sikkel, 10:02:14 05/09/02 Thu

I like the concept, but I wonder...

We know that shocks are bad to possibly fatal for a vampire ('twas a TAZER that got him to the chip), so it might be more dangerous than you think.

Also, supposedly the chip is "hard-wired" to his brain to the degree that he can't live without it (am I right? Going on distant memory...)

Someone put it in, so it should be theoretically possible to take it out, but to simply fry it might not be healthy.

bob

[> [> [> Re: Spike's Chip -- Darby, 10:40:26 05/09/02 Thu

It's never been established that Spike's chip is necessary, or that removing it would hurt him (although it's a complicated procedure) - the doctor who tried to do it probably didn't accept that he couldn't kill Spike poking around in his brain.

And the list of what can kill vampires is very well established and does not include electricity - they can be shocked (and it might be a lengthy recovery for what I'm suggesting) but it can't kill them, according to the Buffyverse rules, unless it sets them on fire, which is why I suggest the tub rather than just grabbing some high- tension lines. And I don't believe that a chip running indefinitely on what little energy it can pick up from a brain could survive the jolt - chips are just too easy to fry, especially government chips bought undoubtedly from a lowbid contractor. We should be amazed that an expensive weapons-grade prototype is even still working!

Has Spike even been tasered since the implant? Even that should knock it out, although maybe temporarily...

[> Great post ! Thanks -- shadowkat, 11:57:59 05/09/02 Thu

You are right - great minds do think alike! After
reading some of the other threads was wondering if I was
the only one. ;-)

[> actually (rumor enclosed) -- GreatRewards, 13:52:16 05/09/02 Thu

I've read that Spike is going to begin a quest to regain his soul. I guess he doesn't just want Angel's ex, he wants the BE Angel, too!

Why I am glad ME made "that scene"... -- Rob, 08:53:32 05/09/02 Thu

1) We wouldn't have gotten such interesting debates here. Nothing like a controversial scene to get us posters typing!

2) Every character has hit rock bottom this year...Every one except Spike. And this was his turn.

3) It gave some true driving force to Spike making a change in his life--whether to become fully evil or fully good. I found this line very telling: "Why did I do it? Why didn't I do it?" This situation isn't so simple as "Spike feels bad for what he did." Spike is even questioning why he didn't do it! And, as I read here from some other posters (sorry, I forget who!), Spike blames him not raping Buffy on the chip, but the decision was really his... The chip doesn't work on Buffy. She pushed him off, but, in her weakened state, he could have gone right back to her and continued. But he didn't. And that is very telling. I see this scene as Spike acting how he believes he should, as a monster, like the scene in "Smashed," when he tried to attack the girl, but being unable to go through with it. Despite himself, his heart isn't in it anymore.

4) This is a risk ME took, and I love when they take risks. I don't know for sure, but is this the first time that a major character has been almost-raped or raped by another major character (not counting soaps lol)? There have been rapes on TV shows, but usually it is by a guest star or non- regular character. This could be the first time a character that the audience is expected to like has attempted to rape another. In many (most, I believe) real-life situations, rape is done by someone the woman knows, sometimes even a friend, or someone you wouldn't expect would be capable of it. This stands as a reminder that things get out of hand; that anybody could, theoretically do this.

Final Note: I don't believe that this scene was written last minute, for one minute. It has been set in place since the moment Spike's chip wouldn't detect Buffy as a human.

Rob

[> Re: Why I am glad ME made "that scene"... -- luminesce, 08:57:17 05/09/02 Thu

Xander tried to rape Buffy in the Season One episode "The Pack."

It's amazing how everyone seems to have forgotten that. Including me, until I got reminded last night.

[> [> Re: Why I am glad ME made "that scene"... -- maddog, 09:04:53 05/09/02 Thu

I think people leave it off because it wasn't really Xander. It was some damn Hayena in Xander's body. Being possessed kinda lets you off the hook.

[> [> [> Re: Why I am glad ME made "that scene"... -- shadowkat, 11:25:23 05/09/02 Thu

And yet...he seems to remember every portion of it and lies
about that. Two years later, he remembers it so well that
he discusses it in Beauty and the Beasts and tells OZ how he knows what it's like to be an animal. Always thought
that was interesting. Just like he remembers all that
military knowledge from Halloween.

Spike has a demon raging inside him...and no soul. Does
that let him off the hook? I mean say he becomes human and gets a soul?? Do we just blame the demon?

I don't know...just curious.

[> [> [> [> Xander's was just different, Spike was himself so he deserves the crap. -- gabby, 19:52:54 05/09/02 Thu

[> [> [> [> Hmm, what if a vampire got his soul back... why does that seem familiar? (gets off topic) -- RichardX1, 18:49:07 05/11/02 Sat

Spike has a demon raging inside him...and no soul. Does
that let him off the hook? I mean say he becomes human and gets a soul?? Do we just blame the demon?

If so, then Angel should have much less conflict. After all, why should his soul feel guilt over what his demonic self did?

As soon as I started typing that response, the answer came to me. You asked what if Spike became human. Angel is still a vampire. I'll go into that on a separate, original thread.

"How do you get a thread killed from the board?"
"Easy, get RichardX1 to post to it!"

[> Re: Why I am glad ME made "that scene"... -- Deeva, 10:10:21 05/09/02 Thu

Has someone really said that The Scene was written last minute? It doesn't appear that way to me. I agree with you on all of your reasons for liking why ME did this. This scene had to happen, though I think a little of the editing they did on Spike was little awkward.

[> [> Re: Why I am glad ME made "that scene"... -- clg0107, 10:24:56 05/09/02 Thu

I concur, with all of the above. It didn't strike me as a gratuitous "we have to have Spike do something really heinous so that Spuffy fans will finally turn against him".

The truth is, it was a really hard scene to watch. I don't think I was literally watching through my fingers, but mentally I was.

It was hard because he was came in so vulnerable and so sincere. He came across utterly human, and in desperate pain. And it just turned into something that he didn't mean for it to, and then he was appalled by it, and then later, he was appalled that he was appalled....too many layers to it to have been a last minute ploy. Yes, it also acts as a device to advance him from this limbo in which he's been existing for 2-1/2 years. But that's a good thing.

It would have been a shocking scene, but not hard to watch in the same way if he'd shown up all Grrr- and fangs and "I'll get you, my pretty" snicker, snicker. And, the latter would have been out of the character they've been building. But I don't think that this was.

clg0107

[> [> [> Re: Why I am glad ME made "that scene"... -- Humanitas, 10:53:25 05/09/02 Thu

Further, it makes very real the danger of that relationship, which, at least for me, was one of the things that was so intriguing. Happiness clause aside, Buffy never belived that Angel would hurt her, and Riley was simply incapable of doing so, at least physically. But Spike...

I think a big part of the thrill of that relationship was that each of them knew full well that the other was perfectly capable of killing them. Angel was the guy you're not supposed to love. Spike was the guy it was dangerous to love, and this particular scene really drove it home.

[> [> Steven DeKnight -- Raccoon, 10:49:53 05/09/02 Thu

said as much in his interview at The Succubus Club last night. Apparently the scene was added while they were breaking the episode, at Marti's request.

[> [> [> Not last minute, just not planned from day 1 as a "major event." -- Dyna, 11:39:29 05/09/02 Thu

"Breaking" the episode is the process that goes on before writing begins of determining roughly what's going to happen. This wasn't a case of a scene being inserted "last minute," but rather just not something ME conceived of as a major milestone of the season. At least, that's how I interpret Steve DeKnight's remarks.

[> [> [> [> Yes, I know what breaking an episode means -- Raccoon, 15:18:45 05/09/02 Thu

Since ME pride themselves on having the seasonal arcs planned out so far in advance, this seems like "last minute" in comparison. I guess I'm a little surprised that something IMO this major wouldn't have been one of those arcs.

[> [> [> Re: Steven DeKnight -- LittleBit, 11:40:32 05/09/02 Thu

"Breaking the episode" was the story meeting that took place the week before DeKnight started writing the script.

[> Re: Why I am glad ME made "that scene"... -- Anne, 10:48:01 05/09/02 Thu

I'm not going to argue with you about the merits of the scene, about which frankly I have genuinely mixed feelings, some good some not so good.

However: if you read the actual transcripts of the DeKnight interview, I would say that it's next to impossible that he was lying about its being a last-minute idea by Marti. His whole version of what happened came out in response to a series of questions, and would have to have been a quite elaborate and involved lie. These guys tell flip one-liner lies to keep people off balance, but they don't cook up big long stories.

For better or worse, the scene was apparently a last-minute idea that had not been baked into the long-term story arc.

[> [> Re: Why I am glad ME made "that scene"... -- clg0107, 11:32:59 05/09/02 Thu

I don't understand why this is bothering people. I read the transcript of the relevent parts of SdeK's comments --

the overall arc ("big things") they already know -- Tara dies, Spike leaves town to...something, the Troika are split. Then, there's the "how" of this stuff. That, they sit around and discuss and brainstorm and share ideas. In the course of that, the "how" of Spike getting to a point of leaving was discussed. Marti was part of the discussion, and contributed an idea that was used.

I would call the scene last-minute if it was added to the script in final revisions. The idea was discussed a week before the script was begun.

Calm down, you guys (at least, to those who are exhibiting un-calm, Marti Noxon is hateful, reactions)!!

If this was some MN scheme designed to make everyone hate Spike, it would have been an (even) uglier scene, attacking her would have been pre-meditated, he probably would have succeeded in raping her, and I suspect he wouldn't be troubled by it. He'd be all "she deserved that" and "once you've had Spike..." and whatever.

But was that the scene we got? No.

It had layers of complex emotional stuff going on, in the end Buffy made him stope -- and he did stop, and the thing happened that the Spike con-redemptionists have been howling about for so long. Spike felt remorse. Guilt. Extreme confusion. Is he sorry for all his past mis-deeds? No, not right now. Maybe never (see also, Anya -- no remorse for a millenium of pain and suffering). Am I saying this was Spike's bright, shining moment. Good God, NO! But it also had too many layers to have been some after-thought whose sole purpose was to turn people against Spike.

What I am saying is that this served the purpose (as has been said already) of bringing about a catharsis for Spike, one that spurs him to action that will finally propel him along one of the paths emenating from the fork in the road about which he's been hanging for so long. Do I know which road he'll end up on? Do I think that there won't be some red herrings along the way from the writing team? Do I think that things are going to work out however it is that Spike is planning them? No, to all of the above. We'll just have to watch and see. But, as usual, I'm glued to my seat, leaning forward all the way!!

~clg0107

[> I agree Rob -- shadowkat, 11:41:35 05/09/02 Thu

I agree with everything you said - but then you and I
are amongst the few who think SEason 6 totally rocks!
(Hmmmm wonder what that says about us?)

It was a risk and to be honest if I was ME I would have done it too - it took something major to push Spike out of his complacency. He was slowly going insane... And yes he could have continued to hurt
her - after she pushed him off, I found the fact that he didn't incredibly interesting, just as I found the fact that she didn't try to kill him afterwards profoundly interesting.

They've known for awhile that they were going this route.
It's there - if you look. The violent sex, the rough- housing, the no - yes routine. (No - I'm not saying I had
problems with their violent sex or it was wrong - just
that these two had a volatile relationship from the get- go.
And the way he got her to admit her feelings to him to
actually initiate sex in Smashed was by fighting with her/hurting her - it did not surprise me that he tried it again, hey if it worked once? And the vamp was desperate, not to mention has a restrained demon screaming inside him. In fact the positions they were in on the floor were similar to the one he had her in on the stairs in Smashed - when he says:"I wasn't planning on hurting you much.")
They are also btw similar to the positions on the floor
in Buffy's dream, very last portion with the First Slayer.
This was preordained - don't believe those writers.

I think people need to get past the grittiness and disturbing nature of the scene and see what you and I saw - there's more there folks. It's an incredibly well written and complex scene.

A friend of mine last night made an interesting point - rape is usually not about sex - it's anger/rage - in most
cases similar to the vampire biting you. Neither party is turned on by it - in most cases. The actor is trying to
hurt the other party - a perfect example is Faith's scene
with Xander in Consequences, she has him on the bed, she's undone his zipper, she is literally squirming on him and her hands are around his throat. In SR - Spike was trying out desperation to get her to feel - violent as it was - what I found most disturbing was the desperation, the frustration, the pathetic pain behind it - love me! That's what I saw. And I'm not sure I can watch it again.
I've seen lots of television shows do rape scenes. Some
a heck a lot worse than this one. And I never felt that
emotion in them - what I felt in those was more similar to
what I saw when Faith tries to hurt Xander or Xander tries
to hurt Buffy in The PAck. And I find it interesting that
ME tried something different here.

Sorry for the ramble. hope made sense. ;-)

[> [> Emotion...JM? -- LeeAnn, 11:55:10 05/09/02 Thu

In SR - Spike was trying out desperation to get her to feel - violent as it was - what I found most disturbing was the desperation, the frustration, the pathetic pain behind it - love me! That's what I saw. And I'm not sure I can watch it again. I've seen lots of television shows do rape scenes. Some a heck a lot worse than this one. And I never felt that emotion in them ... And I find it interesting that ME tried something different here

Well that was the great James Marsters we were watching there. If it has been any almost any other actor I don't think we would be discussing it the way were are.

[> [> [> Martsers' job -- SingedCat, 12:43:40 05/09/02 Thu

I have often been impressed with Marster's acting, his ability to take even a few moments he has in a show and make them memorable. But this really threw me; he played the scene with such terrifying tenderness and desperation. That is one actor with a scary amount of insight into his character, and a beautiful sense of pathos and drama. Say what you will about the scene, to me it was the logical culmination of the last 2 seasons for the two characters. And we may never again see a take on rape so compassionate, and therefore disturbing. Think about it-- at the same time we are frightened for Buffy, we are frightened for Spike, and we twist for a moment, held perfectly between two opposing views. So hard to watch, so beautifully made.

This season ROCKS!

[> [> [> [> Very well said shadowkat, LeeAnn &SingedCat (NT) -- Joie (d V), 22:56:14 05/10/02 Fri

[> [> [> [> "terrifying tenderness and desperation" -- writing like this is why i love this board! -- redcat, 11:11:26 05/11/02 Sat

[> Re: Why I am glad ME made "that scene"... -- celticross, 11:46:20 05/09/02 Thu

I agree with your points save for number 4...Is it a GOOD thing that we were shown a near-rape? It was hard enough to watch for your average viewer, can you imagine what it must have felt like to be a Buffy fan who's been sexually assaulted, then see that nearly happen to the heroine of the show? It may have been brave to show it, from an artistic standpoint, but sometimes the envelope doesn't necessarily need to be pushed.

[> [> Re: Why I am glad ME made "that scene"... -- Lyonors, 12:04:51 05/09/02 Thu

>>It was hard enough to watch for your average viewer, can you imagine what it must have felt like to be a Buffy fan who's been sexually assaulted, then see that nearly happen to the heroine of the show? It may have been brave to show it, from an artistic standpoint, but sometimes the envelope doesn't necessarily need to be pushed.<<

*raises hand* watched it, thought about what happened to me, cried. It was hard, but in a way cathartic. I have always found parallels to my life in Buffy---havent we all? and this for me showed me that I am not alone in what happened to me, I don't have to isolate myself over it either. If it can (nearly) happen to Buffy the super hero, it sure as heck can happen to me.

Ly

[> [> [> Totally agree... -- Caroline, 13:36:40 05/09/02 Thu

Lyonors,

Raising my hand right along with you. Art, especially when done well, has a wonderful way of helping us to feel our personal pain in a healing way. It's why The Body is one of my favorite episodes of any show of all time. One of the many reasons why I love this show.

[> [> [> Um, not to pry too much... -- vampire hunter D, 13:39:21 05/09/02 Thu

But after hearing Lyonors' position, I'm wondering how other victims feel (I know there are at least 2 more here). I know that his is none of my business, but I am curious.

However, if it's too hard for you to talk about and don't want to share, I'll understand.

[> [> [> [> Re: Um, not to pry too much... -- Lyonors, 23:09:19 05/09/02 Thu

I would like to encourage other victims, if they feel comfortable, to talk about this in relation to their own lives as well. I, who have been silent about the incident since it happened, found it easier to tell it to a group of non-judgemental intelligent types. And it is really helping to wash it away....

Ly

[> [> [> [> Re: Um, not to pry too much... -- Arethusa, 12:31:41 05/10/02 Fri

I value my privacy and won't get into personal details, but this is an important matter. Feel free to comment.

I don't want to see sexual assault happen to anyone, in real life or entertainment. If it's happened to you, it's too painful to watch. If it hasn't happened to you and you watch you're a voyeur, entertaining yourself in a particularly sick way.
Now, that's a very strong and judgemental thing to say, and I'm uneasy making such a sweeping statement, but I think our society really needs to consider whether we want to continue to watch shows and movies that revel in violence, especially against women and girls. Don't get me wrong-I love Buffy's kung fu fighting, I won't stop watching "Buffy," and I agree that it would take a very serious act by Spike to to show him experiencing guilt and remorse, but dragging out the old cliche of tramatizing the heroine through rape (or attempted rape) has got to stop.
I made the dreadful mistake of watching "Bastard Out of Carolina," and I couldn't understand how ANYONE could let that little girl even *pretend* to go through that, or why they'd make the movie at all, or why anyone would WANT to see it, or consider it entertainment, or even educational. If you've been through it, it's not entertaining to watch. If you haven't been through it, you will never ever understand the situation. As far as I can tell, making that movie didn't make anyone more aware of sexual abuse than they already were, didn't stop incest or rape, didn't do anything at all to help victims or stop perpetrators. It probably just fed some sick fantasies, and hurt a lot of people who were already hurting. No matter what excuse the filmmakers peddle, they paraded human pain and misery across the tv screen to make money.
If film and tv want to address the problems arising from sexual abuse, they can, but they don't HAVE to show the actual assault. Nobody did before the 1960s, and the message still got across. People are, thankfully, more aware of sexual abuse now, and are more willing to discuss and treat it than before, when it was ignored. But that doesn't mean I want to actually see a woman or child (pretend) to be raped when I watch tv.

[> [> [> Dealing with victimization (the tangent begins...) -- RichardX1, 19:46:52 05/11/02 Sat

Every time I'm exposed to a portrayal of something like this, where one person is the victim of a violent act of another (or multiple others), where the victim (not always, but frequently) is left to deal with his/her own feelings of powerlessness, I'm reminded of a Babylon 5 episode: "Learning Curve".

A group of Rangers is visiting the station, and one of them, who unsuccessfully tries to defend someone from an extortion gang, is used to "leave a message" to the authorities (no sexual violence, thankfully, but he's still in really bad physical shape afterwards). Once he is able to walk, the Rangers begin the Mora'Dum, "the application of terror". At first, we think they're out for vengeance, but that's not the case. As Delenn puts it:

"... Tennier will face his attacker. Those who harmed him now have power over him. And he must take back that power, or he will never be whole again."

Yes, the gang leader is forced to face Tennier in a one-on- one battle, and yes, the leader does get his butt kicked; but that isn't what it's about (although the guy did make a very satisfying "thud" when he hit the ground ^_^). It's about the victim confronting his fear, re-asserting himself, and coming to terms with what's happened.

In the end, there's an exchange between Tennier and his master, Turval:

TURVAL: Where is your fear now?

TENNIER: Gone, master

TURVAL: And what do you feel, anger? Do you feel triumph? Happiness? Joy?

TENNIER: ... pity.

TURVAL: Why?

TENNIER: Because this is all he will ever have, and all he will ever know. Because his name will be swallowed by silence. Forgotten. His name belongs to no one.

TURVAL: And who does your name belong to? History? The world?

TENNIER: No... it belongs to me.

... I wish more "recipients" of violence could be given a chance to undergo the Mora'Dum.

"How do you kill a thread from the board?"
"Easy, get RichardX1 to post on it!"

[> Why it didn't bother me... -- Lilac, 11:55:04 05/09/02 Thu

I don't mean that the ugliness and betrayal inherent in the scene didn't bother me; of course it did, just as it was supposed to. But something I think was notable about the scene is how confident it showed ME is in Spike and JM's characterization. How many actors could pull of a scene involving such a reprehensible act and still have us (many of us, I know that there are many who would like to see Spike dusty immediately) empathize with the character, hate the act but recognize the pain that caused it? I think ME must be pretty damn sure that Spike/JM can win us back after this, or I don't think they would have risked such a controversial breaking point for the whole Buffy/Spike mess. We all knew that they couldn't continue on as they had been. Spike had to hit bottom before he would give up trying to force Buffy to concede true feelings for him. Now that he has hit, it will be fascinating to see which way he bounces.

[> [> Exactly! It shows confidence in the audience, too. -- Dyna, 12:47:20 05/09/02 Thu

"I think ME must be pretty damn sure that Spike/JM can win us back after this, or I don't think they would have risked such a controversial breaking point for the whole Buffy/Spike mess."

I totally agree! I'm also taking with a grain of salt the speculation that ME did this in order to change viewers' minds about (or "make viewers hate") Spike, or push them into sympathizing more with Buffy. I think ME (and James, of course) did a very good job of doing what needed to be done to bring things to a breaking point, without dumbing- down the emotional complexity of the scene. Clearly, ME has a lot of faith in the fans as well.

Some have commented that the result of this must be to change viewers' minds about Spike, but I actually don't get that vibe from the posters here. I think if you're in the "Spike should have been staked a long time ago" camp, you're not going to change your mind based on this, and if you're inclined to regard him as an interestingly flawed character with a lot of potential but stuck in a bad place--well, that's what I am, and I feel the same way today about it as I did before "Seeing Red" was broadcast. If anything, I'm more hopeful about Spike's potential for interesting future development, now that he's been forced to choose a direction instead of circling endlessly around Buffy.

[> [> [> Re: As much as... Spoilers for SR -- LeeAnn, 13:01:08 05/09/02 Thu

As much as I love JM and his portrayal of Spike, I feel the writers made Spike betray his love for Buffy in Seeing Red. Love does not rape.

I do think this will put him on the path to redemption but I might be fooling myself about that as well. He just might be on the path to another ME lame plot device.

It sickens me that an actor as talented as JM is stuck giving form to the inconsistent drivel that ME has been shoveling out this season.

[> [> [> [> Re: As much as... Spoilers for SR -- Rob, 13:31:10 05/09/02 Thu

"Love does not rape."

I think the problem with that statement is how black/white it is. The world is more complex than that. Willow loved Tara. She, in a sense, raped her. I think this year has been Spike's best by far. In past seasons, we saw him evolve to his current state, but this year we get to see his true struggle between monster and man. This was not a case where a human randomly picks a girl to rape. Spike does love Buffy, and this attempted rape is out of her frustration that she doesn't return his feelings, or does but won't admit it to herself, or to him.

If Spike were truly betraying his love for Buffy, he would have gone through with the rape. I think the most telling sign is JM's tone of voice throughout. He was bitterly sad, and was almost crying. This was not the attack of a faceless, evil rapist. This was a desperate act by a man who is desperately in love. And when she finally kicked him off, he stayed off, even though he didn't have to.

Now, I am not for one minute condoning his actions, but I certainly don't think his character was betrayed by it, anymore than Xander was betrayed by dumping Anya, or Willow was betrayed by becoming addicted to magic. One of the themes of this year could be "S$#! happens." Every character at one time or another will infuriate you. I think it was very in-character for him, at this state of mind. He has for months been in love with Buffy, and had a very volatile, violently sexual relationship with her. Just like the other times she said "No," like when he fingered her at the Bronze in "Dead Things," she always eventually gave in. Part of him probably thought she would here now. Remember, this is the same Spike from "Crush." He isn't all human. He isn't all monster. Spike can have true feelings of love for Buffy, and still rape her...and that's the scariest thing about the whole situation.

I think the fascinating thing about Spike is that he has true love for Buffy, and yet still is not, in simplest terms, "good." He still does evil things (demon eggs, etc.) but his love for Buffy is real, and her attraction to him (whether love or not) is real as well.

Spike has always been a conflicted character, and an emotionally complex one, as well. I think this episode was the finest example of just how emotionally complex and deep an examination of the Buffy/Spike relationship could be. This is a dangerous relationship, no doubt about it, but things are not as simple as they were in the first season. Things are complicated, multi-layered, complex.

To simply write this scene off as out of character, I believe, would be denying rich treasure troves' worth of character development. This scene was not one inserted to shock. How then to explain the following scene with Spike and Clem in the crypt? This scene was deeply meaningful, and I thought, brilliantly written and executed.

Rob

[> [> [> [> [> Typo! Should be "his frustration that she doesn't return his feelings," in the first paragraph. -- Rob, 13:34:44 05/09/02 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> Rob...are you reading my mind? Brillant. -- shadowkat, 18:23:04 05/09/02 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> Thanks...and yes, I am. ;o) -- Rob, 18:29:35 05/09/02 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> I agree... -- Dichotomy, 10:19:39 05/10/02 Fri

As sad as it is, people hurt those that they love all the time. The intensity of feeling that allows you to love someone can also make you angrier and more frustrated with them than anyone else. Some parents who hit their kids in anger also love them desperately. And I know people who've said cruel things to their spouses and lovers--things that they would never say to someone they didn't feel deeply for.

I'm not saying love = abuse, or that it's okay to hurt the ones you love, but I think that people who have a hard time controlling their emotional reactions are more likely to hurt those they care about, whether it's a cruel remark, a slap in the face, or, in Spike's case, attempted rape.

[> [> [> Spike will never win me back, rape is unforgivable. -- gabby (victim and survivor if you must know), 19:54:13 05/09/02 Thu

[> [> [> [> Never say never. -- Rob, 09:45:09 05/10/02 Fri

[> Two people needed convincing in "that scene" -- Cleanthes, 13:50:27 05/09/02 Thu

Others have hinted at it below, but let me add here that in "that scene", TWO people needed convincing that sexual relations were over between Buffy & Spike.

Buffy reacted so uncharacteristically timorously not just because she trusted Spike more than she admits but also because she trusts herself even less than she admits. He apologized so very movingly. Buffy had to think how poorly she has treated him. Then he moves in. A large part of her had to wonder whether she would fall back into her own pattern.

She didn't immediately throw him off. Instead, she squirmed and pleaded. I don't think she was squirming and pleading at Spike so much. She squirmed and pleaded with herself. I don't think she ever wanted to give in to Spike's advance, mind, but I think she was surprised that she didn't want to.

So Buffy found some backbone - and I guess her poor backbone had to break a tombstone and thunk against a bathtub first.

[> "Last minute" - LOL (spoiler) -- verdantheart, 12:30:17 05/10/02 Fri

As though Joss wouldn't have his hand in something like this ... and I've thought that it is typically subversive of ME to create this kind of scene in which tempts us to sympathize with the would-be rapist.

[> Agree, Rob...Question regarding trust -- ravenhair, 17:01:00 05/10/02 Fri

In addition to Seeing Red, Steven DeKnight wrote Dead Things. Trust was a major issue in DT and especially with Spike. In SR, why did Spike dismiss Buffy's need for trust when it was so important for him to gain her trust earlier? The scene was great, but I was surprised when he laughed at the mention of trust.

[> Re: Why I am glad ME made "that scene"... -- Claire, 15:50:26 05/11/02 Sat

The reason people are speculating that the rape scene was intended to affect Spike's fan base was because of interviews with the writers. Marti has constantly brought up her personal life in interviews and has specifically said that the character Buffy reminds her of herself and the character Riley is based on her husband. She has also stated that she made no sensible decisions whatsoever in her 20s (which is possibly why Bts is so dark this year?) and Spike strongly reminds her of an ex-boyfriend that she still has issues with. B/S was never meant to be a positive relationship and Spike was the metaphour of the bad boyfriend Buffy needed to escape from. Those are Marti's words.
When fans did become attached to B/S Marti seemed concerned about that and in interviews stressed that Spike was the bad boy and the relationship was not intended to be healthy for Buffy. However her message still wasn't getting across as she started she recieved dozens of letters from angry Spuffy fans claiming that Spike was redemned and they wanted to see a more positive relationship between him and Buffy.
The scene in AYW in which Spike was suddenly an international arms dealer has been puzzled over by many Spike fans as seeming to come out of left field and making little sense. Therefore it was assumed by many (rightly or wrongly) that the point of the scene was to remind us all how great Riley was and how Spike was evil and not a good choice for a partner. But for many the scene simply didn't fit and it certainly changed very few peoples opinions about the Spike character.
It is now being assumed by many Spike fans that the rape scene was planned as the ultimate extreme in order to alienate Spike's fan base as most of them are females. Yes it may have been planned all along to have a catylst to send Spike to Africa. But DeKnight specifically said that Marti requested the rape scene at the last moment and it was not part of Spike's original character arc. It is being seen as a last minute plot contriance mainly because of that. Also the scene itself was manipulative with Buffy seeming to forget she was a superhero and having lost all her strength despite of previously being able to toss Spike across rooms. Also Buffy had a bruise on her leg that was specifically called attention to playing up her role as the helpless victim. Yet Buffy is the slayer and is constantly getting pummelled and smacked around without a mark being left. Warren repeatedly punched her in the face in the same episode with no markings.
I didn't appreciate the graphic nature of the scene and I don't feel that it did fit Spike's character. And yes it has turned many female fans against him. Internet fans tend to be quite diehard in their support of characters and ships as they are generally quite devoted fans anyway if they regularly discuss Buffy on message posts. But the casual viewer is disgusted by Spike's character and no longer care for the character or Spuffy. That has been my experience with the casual fans I watch with (I am the only one of us who bothers posting about Buffy online).
It has also been my experience that a lot of internet fans are also angry. BUT they are angry with the writers rather than Spike. They feel they are being manipulated and the writers have put them in an unfair position by making their favourite character do the unforgivable knowing that fans will try to defend their favourite characters. Many people have said they are no longer watching as they feel insulted and partionised by Marti teaching us a lesson about the bad boyfriend when they wanted to follow a story of love and redemption. Marti has actually said that she doesn't care for the Spike character which is what is causing Spike fans to lose hope and blame her for the current direction of his character.
That is what I think ME has misjudged and they may well lose a lot of viewers over this particular storyline. Just my perspective.

[> [> Future Spoilers in above post!!!! -- This is getting tiresome, 18:53:33 05/11/02 Sat

[> [> [> Re: This post contains spoilers. -- Claire, 21:15:46 05/11/02 Sat

Okay I don't know why you are making out I am always giving away spoilers in every post. In a post a couple of days ago I was critisized for not warning there were spoilers in it and this is only the second occurance so I don't know why you are suggessting it is a constant thing on my part. And I didn't get a chance to respond to the last post in which you claimed I gave away future spoilers. Well that simply wasn't true as I don't know any future spoilers myself. I was commenting on an interview given by the writer of Seeing Red. You claimed I gave away Tara's death. Well I'm sorry but I would have thought it was pretty obvious she was dead as she got a bullet through the heart spraying her lover with blood. I apologized for giving away spoilers for Seeing Red as I didn't realise that on this board we are supposed to label spoilers for episodes that have just aired. But as I don't even know what is going to happen in future episodes I do think you are being oversensitive in complaining I revealed Tara's death to you. The Buffy writers always avoid giving away spoilers but I didn't get really wound up when Steven DeKnight confirmed Tara's death as I would have thought the episode made it clear that she died. The writer obviously thought so to or he would not have conformed her death but teased viewers saying tune in next week to find out.
And again on this post I was discussing a writers interview on an episode that had already aired. I have no more knowledge of future information, any more than you do. But I'm sorry I forgot to label my above post had spoilers for Seeing Red. I understand it must be annoying to stumble across spoilers but I do think you could be a bit more polite about it. You talk as if I'm a serial offender and all my posts are full of spoilers. I have accidently given away spoilers for a recently aired episode twice and I apologize for it both times.

[> [> [> [> Re: This post contains spoilers. (and this one does) -- LittleBit, 21:52:44 05/11/02 Sat

Claire, I think the posting name was more of a response to the many spoilers both unmarked inside posts and in the message headings themselves (and therefore un-missable), not directly at you. The future spoiler you refer to in this post is Spike going to Africa, which I don't think is just speculation on your part, and is not part of a recently aired episode.

We don't want to discourage you from posting. It's just that at this point in the season and with so much happening, those who don't want to know any information beforehand are asking us to please be very careful, not in what we are saying, but in being aware that if it contains spoilers we label it as such.

I actually posted the same question you asked, and I can tell you that depending on location, some viewers are as much as a season behind. I find it safest to simply say up to what episode my comments are covering.

LB

[> Re: Why I am glad ME made "that scene"... -- abt, 05:51:04 05/12/02 Sun

Back in February, I made a post here about 'Does Spike believe he could change if he wanted to?'
I think up til this point, Spike has genuinely believed he could change if he wanted to. He's kept on saying 'a man can change', despite Buffy's constant reminders he is not a man. In the crypt, he says to Clem, "I can't be a man". One interpretation of this is he's realised that he can't change, even if he wanted to.

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