May 2002
posts
Dilemma:
To Read or Not to Read Spoilers? (NOT A SPOILER...I'm just
talking about them in general.) -- Joie (d V),
22:02:21 05/07/02 Tue
I'm suffering from an intense desire to read spoilers
regarding the remaining part of the season! I just stumbled
upont the Angel X spoiler site for the first time tonight.
I began to read the beginning of next weeks (Villains)
episode. I quickly exited out after reading the beginning
of what I assume is a plethora of further spoilage. Now I'm
in a heated battle with myself. In the past I would choose
"to read or not to read" with relative ease. Making this
choice today, however, is entirely different...its
conflicted.
I'd like to hear some different view points on whether it is
better to read or not to read spoilers. To those of you who
read them, do you ever feel that the episode is in
fact...spoiled? To those of you who do not read them, do
you struggle with this same overwhelming temptation? Or do
you stand unshakeable in your conviction of an unspoiled
existense?
I'm glad to say, writing this has helped me to curb the
temptation for a while. I'll continue trying not to succumb
while I wait and ponder your responses.
Thanks!
[>
Re: Dilemma: To Read or Not to Read Spoilers? (NOT A
SPOILER... -- sTalking Goat, 22:15:11 05/07/02
Tue
I never really got the whole thing about not reading
spoilers. But then again I've been called a Paranoid with
Serious Control Issues.
Even if you know exactly what's going to happen, its not the
same as seeing it is it? Of all you people who knew what was
going to happen in Seeing Red, weren't you still suprised
when it played out?
While I won't call myself a serious spoiler seeker. I do
browse the occasional spoiler site. If I come across
something, its just more incentive for me to make sure my
VCR is set.
But Thats Just Me.
[> [>
Re: Dilemma: To Read or Not to Read Spoilers? (NOT A
SPOILER... -- JBone, 22:18:54 05/07/02 Tue
I first found out what spoilers where in the beginning of
season 5. I knew a lot of what was going to happen early in
that season, and I knew EVERYTHING that was going to happen
in Buffy vs Dracula. I watched that first episode and felt
a huge letdown. I knew all the jokes, all the scenes. What
should have been a great viewing experience turned into a
hollow exercise of matching scenes to words. I haven't read
a spoiler since.
[> [> [>
I avoid them like the plague -- lulabel,
22:38:00 05/07/02 Tue
I hate being spoiled. The only time I deliberately spoiled
myself was over Christmas vacation when I was travelling and
would not see the current episode for a couple weeks. The
episode was "Gone" which was a fun but not earthshattering
episode. I did not regret doing it in this case, but I have
not deliberately spoiled myself since.
A couple weeks ago I realized that I was being inadvertantly
spoiled for some of the remaining episodes of this season
through fanfiction, of which I read quite a bit. It wasn't
just one fanfic, but several, all of which were NOT labelled
for spoilers. I've stopped reading newly posted fiction and
will continue to do so until the end of the season.
I just enjoy watching un-spoiled, it's a much more visceral
experience when you don't know what's coming. I think the
emotional impact is much greater. There's also the problem
with reading and viewing a scene - a bit like reading verses
viewing a play, it's not really the same thing.
Just Say No!
[>
Re: Dilemma: To Read or Not to Read Spoilers? --
Cactus Watcher, 22:25:46 05/07/02 Tue
It's really all about how YOU feel about it. Personally,
when I started getting closer to being completely spoiled
last season, I found the episodes themselves less enjoyable.
Half the fun for me is following the clues ME gives us.
Much of what will happen is foretold. And those things that
are supposed to be a shock, are better left a shock in my
opinion. But, if you really want to know, go ahead and find
out. There sure is no law against it. Just try not spoil
it for everyone else if you do.
[>
Don't do it!!! -- MayaPapaya9, 00:13:33 05/08/02
Wed
I used to read spoilers like some people read the Bible, but
I stopped about mid way through Season 5, and oh my god.
You would not believe how much more I enjoyed the show. I
was not prepared at all for Buffy's death. I was yelling at
the TV and bawling like a baby. In a spoiler-free viewing,
every emotion you feel is times ten. There's no substitute
for genuine surprise. Don't cave in and read spoilers! It
takes a lot of self-control, but everything in life takes
self-control. Dieting, getting good grades, everything.
Trust me, it'll make the experience so much more
satisfying.
[> [>
Re: Don't do it!!! -- maddog, 14:15:54 05/08/02
Wed
See but that's just your opinion...we all have different
feelings. I don't mind spoilers(though I don't always read
them) and I knew Buffy was going to die...and I still cried
like a baby. For me it's all in the acting. And I really
think you need to experience both ways and make the decision
for yourself.
[>
Re: Dilemma: To Read or Not to Read Spoilers? (no
SPOILERs) -- yuri, 00:54:49 05/08/02 Wed
A bit of a reiteration of CW and MP, but there are two
definite reasons why I remain unspoiled.
1. Looking for clues and cues as to what will happen is one
of my favorite things to do, and makes me more involved in
each episode. (I can see how some would say the opposite -
that knowing what will happen is fun b/c you can see all the
little things building it up that you may miss - but
whenever I've been spoiled - always inadvertantly - I've
never enjoyed that as much.)
2. Emotions come stronger. If you're anticipating something
its arrival is less impacting than if it is a suprise. I
value the power that art has to make me feel things above
pretty much anything else it can do, so I'm not about to
dull my reactions.
[> [>
Re: Dilemma: To Read or Not to Read Spoilers? (no
SPOILERs) -- Cyndey, 07:34:06 05/08/02 Wed
I got accidentally spoiled for AYW and knew about Buffy and
Spike a month ahead of time. Absolutely ruined it for me. It
isn't worth knowing in advance - the emotional impact is
lost - and that is what makes the show so great.
I agree - don't do it.
[>
Speaking as an admitted spoiler trollip,... --
VampRiley, 13:17:24 05/08/02 Wed
...I've got to weight in, given the responses so far.
As CW said, "It's really all about how YOU feel about
it."
I, for one, like being spoiled. You start hearing how things
might go and you wonder how it is they're gonna pull it off.
Or whether or not they have the balls to actually do it. I
find spoilers to be like a tease: just a little to get you
excited and interested. But that doesn't mean that if you
get too much of it, the actual viewing will be better for
you.
For some, spoilers keep people interested if they think some
of the season isn't as good as they thought it would be. But
for me though, I'll even read portions of shooting scripts
that are leaked. I probably wouldn't read the "entire"
script if it was put out before I saw the show (I've never
come across this).
I have never come across a time where being spoiled ruined
it for me. In fact, all they have ever done is enhance the
pleasure I receive from watching it. While reading a scene
is and using my own imagination is fine, watching it and
seeing how the actors play their parts is much better for
me.
I'm not just limited to viewing it with just my own vision
of it. I get the vision of so many people. Sometimes I, if
I'm spoiled about a scene, I'll compare either during or
afterwards. Sometimes I think my way is better, sometimes
theirs. That's part of the fun for me when watching these
shows. And I will think for hours on end on how it could
have turned out different if some things were different.
Hearing about spoilers can also lead to some very wierd, but
fun, speculation, like mine on how BabyConnor could have
been Sahjhan or Holtz. I liked those. I enjoyed coming up
with them. Thinking how the implausible could be plausible
is a joy I freely admit to.
The admittence is all part of the 12 step program I'm in. I
get kidnapped for being a Buffyholic, and since I don't want
to get rid of my addiction, they try to force this curse (I
mean "cure") in me head. Bloody pillocks. Jokes on them. I'm
just playing along until my timely escape.
VR, the committed one
Karma and Chaos
........Seeing Red spoilers for SR and Villians --
Rufus, 22:31:49 05/07/02 Tue
Entropy seems to have achieved the results of entropic
chaos...the whole world of the Scoobies fractured with most
of them travelling in seperate directions never to find each
other again. The one exception is Tara and Willow who have
the most healthy relationship in the show. They came back
together to the joy of everyone even Spike. But lots
happened tonight to further seperate the gang in ways we
never could have considered. The Troika has emerged as a
real problem, and they seem to have gotten away with
everything from robbery to murder. Well, until tonight. I
think about Karma when I consider the events that are
rapidly unfolding. Chaos seems to be winning, if you look
that bit closer there is some order there. I read an article
in the Yoga Journal relating to Karma and here is part of
it.....
The Law Of Karma...by John Schumacher and Patricia
Walden
According to karma, what is happening right now depends on
the sequence of events that came before. As a result, you
are constantly experiencing the karmic results of choices
made in the past - and making choices that will help create
your future.
Webster's New Twentieth Century Dictionary defines the word
"sequence" as the "coming of one thing after another; order;
a continuous or related series of things following in a
certain order or succession; a result or consequence."
Karma is, more or less the law of cause and effect. When
something happens, that event produces results in the
future: con-sequences. Each moment in you life is the karmic
culmination of a series of events - a sequence. Choices you
make flow in a sequence, one after another, and lead to the
circumstances of the present moment. This is where the
cliched phrase, "You create your own reality," has some real
meaning. Not in the Pollyan-ish sense that you get what you
wish for (so wish for nice things and everything will be
peachy), but in the sense that you get what you've set
yourself up to get.
There are lots of mitigating factors involved in examining
the presence and role of karma in life: the existence of
free will; the interplay of consequences from all our past
actions; the presence or absence of conditions suitable for
certain sonsequences to manifest themselves; our collective
as well as individual karma, the wider web of causality in
which we all move. But basically, the law of karma says that
what is happening now is predicated on the sequence of
events that came before. You are always simultaneously at
the beginning, the middle, and the end of many sequences;
while you are at this mement experiencing the karmic results
of choices you made in the past, you are also making karmic
choices that will help create the moments you will
experience in the future. This is ver important to
understand because it means you have a lot of say in what
comes your way down the road.
Everything that happened tonight is the result of a sequence
of events that have merged together to bring us tonights
show. The posative side of it was the fact that Xander is
finding a sort of peace, even if he is still hurting. He
went from angry accusations to seeking out his friend and
making up with her.
Xander: I THOUGHT I HIT BOTTOM, BUT--IT HURT THAT YOU
DIDN'T TRUST ME ENOUGH TO TELL ME ABOUT SPIKE. IT HURT.
Buffy: I'M SORRY. I SHOULD HAVE TOLD YOU.
Xander: MAYBE YOU WOULD HAVE IF I HADN'T GIVEN YOU SO MANY
REASONS TO THINK I'D BE AN ASS ABOUT IT.
Xander: I DON'T KNOW WHAT I'D DO...WITHOUT YOU AND
WILL.
Every character in the Scooby Gang has made mistakes that
they aren't proud of. Xander wasn't honest with Anya and the
consequences are for now he has lost her. Buffy hid her
relations with Spike and paid for it by being even more
alienated from her friends. Willow began to see magic as the
only answer to any problem, losing Tara til she stopped.
Last week Willow had come far enough that Tara met her half
way and resumed their relationship.
Then there is the Troika. Warren is an evil man. He started
by playing with dolls because he couldn't relate to people.
He then decided to use anything and anyone to get the power
he never had as a nerd. He brought his friends into his
scheme causing them to do things they wouldn't have done if
they had stuck to building Boba Fett models. Warren is a
killer, he killed Katrina, he killed Tara, and tried to kill
Buffy. Warren arrived at the house to kill Buffy, he didn't
intend on having lemonade with a former schoolmate, he
wanted to kill her for making him feel less of a man. He got
Tara, an innocent victim, and next he will find out what
happens when you start a sequence of events that lead you to
a future you made for yourself. I know that many will say
that Tara died in a stupid way, but in real life most death
I have seen has been for similar reasons, and it's stupid
but people continue to kill each other. All this done with
souls, the element that is supposed to help us find the
right star.
Then we have to deal with Spike. He attempted to rape Buffy,
get inside to make her feel for him the love he feels for
her. This violation is no way to force love from an
unwilling partner. Buffy can't love Spike as he is, and his
actions only proved her point. She can't trust him to always
make the right choice when his lack of soul compells him to
prefer evil. One mistake could cost so much that the risk
isn't worth it to Buffy. Spike left his coat at Buffy's
house and went back to the crypt a broken
monster/man/nothing.
Clem: UH, KNOCK KNOCK. I WAS JUST IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD,SO
I THOUGHT, YOU KNOW,THERE'S A KNIGHT RIDER MARATHON ON THE
TV, SO--I GOT HOT WINGS!
Spike: WHAT HAVE I DONE? WHY DIDN'T I DO IT?WHAT HAS SHE
DONE TO ME?
Clem: "SHE DONE" WHO?OH...THE SLAYER, HUH?GOSH, SHE BREAK UP
WITH YOU AGAIN?
Spike: WE WERE NEVER TOGETHER.NOT REALLY.SHE'D NEVER LOWER
HERSELF THAT FAR.
Clem: SHE'S A SWEET GIRL,SPIKE, BUT, HEY,ISSUES. AND NO
WONDER,WITH THE WHOLE COMING BACK FROM THE GRAVE AND
WHATNOT. I HAD THIS COUSIN WHO GOT RESURRECTED BY SOME KOOKY
SHAMAN. WHOO, BOY, WAS THAT A MESS.
Spike: WHY DO I FEEL THIS WAY?
Clem: LOVE'S A FUNNY THING.
Spike: IS THAT WHAT THIS IS?I CAN FEEL IT...SQUIRMING IN MY
HEAD.LOVE?
THE CHIP. GNAWING BITS AND CHUNKS.
Clem: UH, MAYBE A WET CLOTH?
Spike: EVERYTHING ALWAYS USED TO BE SO CLEAR.SLAYER,
VAMPIRE.VAMPIRE KILLS SLAYER,SUCKS HER DRY,PICKS HIS TEETH
WITH HER BONES. IT'S ALWAYS
BEEN THAT WAY.I'VE TASTED THE LIFE OF 2 SLAYERS. WITH BUFFY-
-IT ISN'T SUPPOSED TO BE THIS WAY. IT'S THE CHIP. STEEL AND
WIRES AND SILICON.
IT WON'T LET ME BE A MONSTER...AND I CAN'T BE A MAN. I'M
NOTHING.
Clem: HEY...COME ON NOW,MR. NEGATIVE. YOU NEVER KNOW WHAT'S
JUST AROUND THE CORNER. THINGS CHANGE.
Spike: THEY DO. HMM.IF YOU MAKE THEM.
When the chip was installed in Spike it started a sequence
of events, Spike was forced to think before he acted. Now he
feels he has nothing, needs to change....we may be left to
guess if he will come back to Sunnydale to make a Slayer
toothpick.
Everyone in the show has a certain amount of control over
what happens in their lives. Buffy knew what she was doing
sleeping with Spike, ignoring Dawn, being less than
truthfull with her friends. Xander would have been better
off if he had put the wedding off before the dress was on.
Willow could have just said no to magic and then maybe we
wouldn't have had Buffy back. I'm sure each character has
done things they wish they could change. Everyone may not be
able to change what they already have done, but they do have
control over what they do next. Everything they do will have
an influence over what comes next in their lives. I feel
that no matter how bad things get for Willow we can get her
back. She has done so many things right, that I feel that
what she does next shouldn't be the only thing we judge her
on.
In the Buffyverse there is the cycle of fall and redemption,
a motif of forgiveness. This season makes us question who
can we forgive, and what do we base forgiveness on? Is Spike
unforgiveable because he is a demon? Same with Anya? Or is
it the actions a being makes that count? The humans this
years could give a monster a lesson or two on how to get
evil right. But just like in the human world not all demons
are evil. There are exceptions, and with humans exceptions
to the soul = good assumption. Buffy now has to deal with a
man, because he is a murderer, not a monster in a visible
way. All the characters have to grow enough to realize that
no one is perfect and learn to forgive the mistakes we are
all so capable of making. Coming back to life has been much
harder than completing a spell, it has been hard work for
everyone. Can they fix what they have done, make it right
before it's too late....I'd say yes, to some. Oh and Yay!
Jonathon for preventing Warren from killing Xander, and
helping Buffy....I hope that's a start for Jonathon to make
it better for himself, even if it means much more time in
the big house.
And words can't express the loss of Tara, except that she is
the element of love and compassion that a simple piece of
metal can't take away forever.
Right now with the death of Tara, there will be true chaos
in Sunnydale, a chaos that may wipe the town off the face of
the earth...and I don't just blame Willow for it as she
started off a victim....I look to the pathetic creature who
could have stopped all this before he put the batteries in
his first poseable Barbie.
[>
Seeing Red, random thoughts (and therefore
spoilers) -- Rattletrap, 05:13:56 05/08/02 Wed
"And words can't express the loss of Tara, except that she
is the element of love and compassion that a simple piece of
metal can't take away forever.
Right now with the death of Tara, there will be true chaos
in Sunnydale, a chaos that may wipe the town off the face of
the earth...and I don't just blame Willow for it as she
started off a victim....I look to the pathetic creature who
could have stopped all this before he put the batteries in
his first poseable Barbie."
Well said, as always, Rufus. My sentiments precisely.
Other random thoughts on last night's eppy, piggybacked
under this thread to save board space:
+ Kudos to Steve DeKnight for a fabulous script. The pacing
was absolutely perfect in that I found myself continually
frustrated with not knowing what was about to happen.
+ The Spike/Buffy rape scene was completely unexpected and
thoroughly shocking. It also calmed some of my ethical
concerns about this season. As a firm believer that "no"
means "no," I have been a bit uncomfortable with the way
Spike and Buffy frequently begin their sexual encounters,
and I'm glad to see that finally addressed, albeit in an
even more uncomfortable way.
+ Fabulous acting all around by every cast member, I can't
think of a single performance that went astray. Special
mention to Buffy and Spike in the rape scene and Buffy and
Xander in the reconciliation scene at the end.
+ Compare Dawn in "Seeing Red" with Dawn in "Real Me."
We've come a long way, folks. I'm loving the new, more
assertive, more mature Dawn and want more of this for the
next 3 hours and for S7. That scene in the crypt w/ Spike
was amazing.
+ Willow and Tara, 'nuf said.
[> [>
Re: Seeing Red, random thoughts (and therefore
spoilers) -- neaux, 10:36:54 05/08/02 Wed
I was a bit jarred by the editing in the bathroom scene and
bankvan heist.
The appearance of Spike in the bathroom was shocking.
Again when Buffy appeared to Warren on top of the van.
Both characters just appeared. and both scenes jumped
trememdously with quick edits. The van flipped. Warren
opening the door. Buffy appears and a fight ensues.
Spike appears from nowhere in the bathroom and when the door
closes we are baffled to see quick shots of Buffy being
battered against the shower. Thuds and bumps.. again quick
edits.
Anyone care to elaborate why?
[> [> [>
From the spoilers I read on Seeing Red -- Rufus,
16:33:58 05/08/02 Wed
I remember AngelX stating that they cut the bathroom scene
and it had been much more graphic than what we eventually
saw.
With Six Eyes he
was weeping - Inferno and A New World - spoilers --
fresne, 23:36:20 05/07/02 Tue
With six eyes he was weeping and over three chins dripped
tears and bloody foam.
Inferno Canto XXXIV
I can't say as I expected to come up with new Dante/ME
parallels this quickly, but AtS started it! This is actually
quite pleasant in a post Seeing Red, oh my God haze. Ah,
yes. Dante. Angel. New World.
Keep in mind, there is something very juicy about a
character named Lilah (after Delilah of Sampson and D fame)
trying to sway a man to give up closely guarded knowledge.
To betray his cause.
Also in a moment of parallels, interesting that on both BtVS
and AtS, Earth has been compared to Hell. Heaven it seems,
lies elsewhere.
So in the final Cantos of Inferno, Dante and Virgil get to
the bottom levels of Hell. Sinners, who have betrayed
family, guests, and benefactors, are frozen in ice. The
greater the betrayal, the more trapped they are in the
crust. However, before we get started, remember that despite
all of Hell's punishments, the greatest misery in Hell is
the lack of God's light, warmth, love. Everyone in Hell has
focused solely on what they want, on what they need and it
has damned them.
The source of the ice, the source of the cold wind that
sweeps across this level of Hell is derived from Satan's
wings, which constantly beat. Satan himself, as the ultimate
betrayer (sorry Judas, but you're no Morning Star), is
embedded in ice up to his waist and has been trapped there
since his fall from Heaven. The trick is, Satan could go
free at any time. The ice that traps him would melt if only
he would stop beating his wings. But he can't because all
sinners in Hell are trapped into the behavior that caused
their fall from grace. Turning away from heaven was after
all a choice. Just as none of the sinners can admit their
own complicity in their sin and ask for redemption. They all
deny responsibility. All shove the blame onto someone else.
Are angry or sad. Want to be remembered. Want to be
forgotten. Constantly ask for Dante's tears and
sympathy.
The last sinners that Dante and Virgil encounter, who can
speak, are Count Ugolino and Archbishop Ruggier. Frozen in
the ice up to the neck, they share one frozen space while
Ugolino gnaws with bitter hatred at Ruggieri's neck, wiping
his mouth in Ruggieri's hair in order to speak so that he
can bring Ruggieri greater shame. Ugolino was betrayed by
Ruggieri, who walled Ugolino up in a room with his children
(slightly more complex in real life). Dante has Ugolino
describe his children begging Ugolino for a moment of
emotional connection, which he didn't give. He turned to
stoic stone instead. Waiting too late until they were dead
and then weeping, he gave into grief. Now Ugolino and
Ruggiere are trapped in Hell together forever. For you see,
Ugolino was a traitor in his time too. Ruggieri says nothing
during the exchange. There are several distinct parallels
in the scene's language which link the first sinners Dante
spoke with, Paolo and Francesca, who died for passionate
love, and Ugolino and Ruggieri, who are forever linked in
passionate hate.
Ugolino reminds me of Holtz, who was absent when his wife
and children died, when his daughter was changed. Who killed
his daughter, rather than let her live as a demon. Perhaps,
part of his inability to forgive Angel, is his inability to
forgive himself. Note his eternal vigilance, his inability
to truly emotionally connect ever since, his passionate
focus on his revenge. Of course, Ugolino also reminds me of
Angel, who was in a sense frozen. Filled with cold rage.
Angry and hurting over the loss of his son. As he sat
grieving, Angel's expressions were blank. He wasn't weeping.
No gnashing of teeth. No sack cloth. He wasn't talking with
his friends about the pain. He shut that part of himself
down.
Holtz to Angel. Angel to Wesley. Wesley to himself, his
friends, his computer.
Ugolino rants at Dante because Dante won't weep for him.
Dante, who fainted when he heard Francesca's story, now is a
bit more discriminating and extends his pity not to Ugolino,
but to the innocent victims in the story, "Even if Count
Ugolino bore the name of traitor to your castles, you still
should not have put his children to such torture."
It's also important to remember that Ugolino is one of the
damned fathers, saved sons/descendants pairings of which
Dante is so fond. His grandson, Judge Nino, who Ugolino
himself betrayed, is in Purgatory.
From there, Dante and Virgil walk to Satan, who does have
three heads (3 - like the 3 ladies that prompted the trip,
the 3 furies, the trinity, etc. Also, it's from a painting
in the Florentine Duomo's Baptistery.).
In each mouth, Satan chews on one of the three greatest
betrayers of all time: Brutus and Cassius (who betrayed the
empire) and Judas (who betrayed God.). These are not
personal betrayals. Brutus may have betrayed his friend;
however people who betrayed friends, Romans, countrymen are
off frozen elsewhere. They, in Dante's estimation, are
lesser offenders. The true crime is to betray the unified,
structured, gall durn it I'm tried of fractious infighting
war, empire. Dante wanted order, structure, hierarchy. A
blow against Julius Cesar, who's hanging out in Limbo,
wasn't a blow against a man, it was a blow against all of
society. (Although, oddly Cato is in Purgatory, but
whatever.) Likewise, Judas' offense wasn't that he betrayed
a friend with a kiss, but that he betrayed his God with a
kiss.
Since Judas' betrayal is the more significant (God trumps
Empire) he is slightly worse off. He's not only being
clawed, but he is denied speech because he is being chewed
head first, rather than feet first like Brutus and Cassius.
Also, nicely symbolic for how God is the head and the empire
is the feet in the whole trinity as the universe parallel.
Satan is also silent, his mouths are full. Pure evil it
seems is kind of boring and repetitious. Where have I heard
that before? Oh yeah, when it snowed in Sunnydale.
For Lilah to parallel Wesley's "betrayal" to that of Judas,
Angel and/or Connor must be taken as Christ/God/Powers that
Be/chosen champion of Powers that Be.
Within the parallel there is that lovely construction that
Wesley has been denied speech. His voice has been disrupted
to rough sibilants by the slash of a knife. Denied the
presence of his friends in order to give speech purpose. If
a betraying friend speaks explanations to an empty room, can
anyone hear it? Or is it all the sound of one hand clapping?
To steal from Hannibal Lector's speech on the same subject,
common medieval tradition had Judas hanging himself from
remorse. A rope around his neck, which cut off his breath,
rendered his speech rough and choking. Consider how Angel
tried to kill Wesley - by smothering his breath, cutting off
his speech. Although, Holtz's voice isn't winning any
mellifluous contests.
And so Wesley sits typing on his Apple computer. Yes, it's
product placement, but it's also symbolic. The apple is a
symbol of the loss of innocence, the fall from Eden, the
knowledge of good and evil. The serpent's betrayal of its
creator. And then Wesley glances at Judas devoured. Perhaps,
he wonders if Judas' intentions were good or bad or
irrelevant because whatever his intentions, there is Judas,
naked and devoured.
Wesley, like all those in the lowest level, has also been
frozen out and frozen in. Wesley has been denied as the AI
crew's friend at Angel, the leader's, direction. Wesley in
his turn freezes out/almost turns away when Gunn comes to
him for help. Somewhere in all this denial of friendship I
feel a Peter denying Christ's acquaintance three times
before the cock crowed, i.e., the dawn, parallel.
Ultimately, until the fallen angel's wings stop beating,
until the characters accept their own culpability, ask for
and grant grace, everyone will remains frozen. Hungry for
revenge. Longing for speech. Wanting to be heard.
[>
Re: With Six Eyes he was weeping - Inferno and A New
World - spoilers -- yuri, 01:15:15 05/08/02 Wed
aah, wonderful. well, I've really been putting it off, so i
resolve to go get me some Dante tomorrow. This board has
done more for my literary education than my english
teacher.
Anyhow, you say:
despite all of Hell's punishments, the greatest misery in
Hell is the lack of God's light, warmth, love. Everyone in
Hell has focused solely on what they want, on what they need
and it has damned them.
In my interpretation, Wesley was not focused solely on what
he wanted. Does this disqualify him from Hell? In general
(because I don't think this is exactly what Wes did) does a
person who performs a heinous and terrible act of betrayal
in order to save/aide someone else belong in Dante's Hell,
or no?
And could you help a very embarrased girl out and quickly
explain the story of Samson and Delilah? I'd normally find
it myself somewhere, but I have just researched my ass up
the wall (and of course the post SR oh my god haze) and I
have a feeling I'd have to wade through some jargon to
figure it out.
[> [>
Re: With Six Eyes he was weeping - Inferno and A New
World - spoilers -- fresne, 07:03:06 05/08/02 Wed
"In my interpretation, Wesley was not focused solely on what
he wanted. Does this disqualify him from Hell? In general
(because I don't think this is exactly what Wes did) does a
person who performs a heinous and terrible act of betrayal
in order to save/aide someone else belong in Dante's Hell,
or no?"
Hmmm…not so much Wesley was focused on his desires as he had
a very narrow focus. Rather than sharing his knowledge,
spreading the grief, connecting with someone, anyone, he did
what he thought was right, alone.
And ummm…I forgot to mention that in the Ugolino story one
of the more controversial lines (i.e., what doe this mean)
is after his sons die, "therefore I gave myself to groping
over them and for two days called on them after they were
dead. Then fasting had more power than grief"
Which some people interpret as he ate them, while others
say, nope he died. Hard to say, earlier in the story Ugolino
recounts how his children, upon seeing him bite his hands in
sorrow, believe that he is overcome with hunger and offer
themselves to their father as a Eucharistic sacrifice,
"Father, it will be far less pain for us if you eat us. You
clothed us in this wretched flesh and you can strip us of
it." He comforts them briefly, but then, "That day and the
next we stayed all silent." And upon the fourth day his son
Gaddo's last words (echoing the last words of Christ) before
dying are, "My father, why do you not help me?" The
implications within the Canto are that Ugolino misspent his
last days with his sons. Rather than seeking connection, he
turned to stone inwardly and was silent when it
mattered.
Now, personally I say Wesley isn't so much deserving of Hell
as needing Purgatory/therapy, but that's not the book Lilah
gave him.
"And could you help a very embarrased girl out and quickly
explain the story of Samson and Delilah? I'd normally find
it myself somewhere, but I have just researched my ass up
the wall (and of course the post SR oh my god haze) and I
have a feeling I'd have to wade through some jargon to
figure it out."
Samson was one of (insert number here) the Judges of Israel.
See Judges in the Old Testament for serious details. God
told his parents when he was born that was very special,
would cause Israel's enemies no end of problems and oh,
never give him a hair cut. He became really, really strong,
did lots of wild carousing, etc, oh, and slaying of Israel's
enemies. Eventually, he takes up with this prostitute
Delilah. Now, she has a mission to find out why he's so
strong, so she can give the info to his enemies. They sleep
together, she asks for the info. He lies. It gets tested.
Nope not true. Eventually, he tells the truth and guess
what, a quick trip to the barber, no more super strength and
bad things happen, slavery, blindness, etc. However,
eventually (I love the way these things turn) he's taken to
a big ol' party being held by his enemies. Everyone, whose
anyone, is there. So, there he is, his hair grown back,
standing between the two principal support structures in the
building. Push and anyone who is anyone is now smooshed,
along with Samson. Payback is apparently not only a feminine
canine, but a blind, long haired, old man.
Oh, and good luck with the Dante and picking a translation
that you like. If I may suggest, not one that tries to
translate and rhyme. Italian is a rhyming language. English
is not. Forcing the issue can get a bit, tortured.
[> [> [>
prayer, not hair -- skeeve, 09:09:48 05/08/02
Wed
My recollection is that Sampson's renewed strength was the
result of prayer. His hair might have grown back a little,
but that didn't matter.
I read John Chardi's (sp?) translation. He used to (and
might still) have a Public Radio segment called "Good Words
To You". I read Dante's Inferno because of the inspiration
provided by Niven and Pournelle's Inferno, a sequel to the
former. What amazed me was the number of things that N and
P did not make up.
[> [> [>
Samson -- Sophist, 09:13:27 05/08/02 Wed
The key to the story of Samson is that his power comes from
God. However, when Delilah asks him the source of his power,
Samson denies God by saying that it comes from his long
hair. As punishment, God deprives Samson of his strength
when his hair is cut. Samson is then captured and tortured
by his enemies. He regains his strength only at the end,
when he regains his faith in God. That allows him to destroy
his enemies, and himself, by pulling down the temple in
which he is held captive.
[> [> [> [>
why only hairy lies? -- skeeve, 12:40:39
05/08/02 Wed
My recollection is that Samson told Delilah at least two
other lies about the source of his strength. D tested both
of them. Samson kept his strength both times. Is this a
case of the third time is the charm?
[>
KABOOM!!! This is amazing. -- Tillow, 08:17:04
05/08/02 Wed
[>
OK it's time to correct that deficit in my
education -- matching mole, 09:00:03 05/08/02 Wed
How can I resist the combined forces of fresne and ME? I'll
just open the hinge on the top of my head and pour Dante in.
and if that doesn't work I'll actually read it.
Great post.
Interpreting the
Title (Spoilers for Seeing Red) -- Anneth, 00:23:53
05/08/02 Wed
I'm currently working on an essay about what the titles
mean, on different levels, as a whole and separatly, for
this entire season. But I wanted to throw out a couple of
lines for tonight's episode.
Seeing Red: Literally. T and W's sheets. Blood. Spike's
"spiked" blood.
Seeing Red: Figuratively: The red flag before the bull,
meaning "attack!" and the streetlight, for "stop!" Also,
could be a play on the idea of some of the characters being
morally "bankrupt" (morally in debt doesn't have the same
ring to it.)
On the most obvious level, Seeing Red was about blood.
Specifically, Buffy's and Tara's blood. Which Willow and
Xander see. But ME has a long history of investing blood
with a lot of meaning. From "Love isn't brains, children,
it's blood" (Tara and Willow, getting back together although
they haven't fully resolved their issues) to Spike's
attraction to Buffy (He's a vampire, so wants to drink her
blood, but he's also in love with her, which according to
his own logic, would mean that his blood is in control of
his "better vampiristic feelings" and makes his desire for
her more than physical.)
But this episode was also about attacking, and about
braking.
Spike and Warren both "see red" in that they become suffused
with fury and lash out incredibly violently. As humans.
Warren's emasculation at Buffy's hands signifies a final
defeat to him, one that he will not suffer, and he goes
after her. Not as a magicked-up dilletante, but a crazed
human. Spike, too, feels debased and emasculated by Buffy,
and in a dreadful moment, loses his perspective and pathos,
and attacks her, not as a vampire, but as a human. Warren
wants to control her by destroying her, Spike wants to
control by forcing himself upon her. And, it seems, Willow
is now seeing red, too, although we will have to wait til
next week to see how that turns out.
I'm sure much time will be spent analysing the bathroom
scene, so I won't go into it much more here.
Finally, Seeing Red is about coming to a full stop.
Jonathan finally stops wanting to be a part of the Trio; he
finally throws himself into Buffy's camp (literally by
throwing himself at her) by telling her how to defeat an
otherwise unstoppable jauggernaut. (off topic: in the X-men
comics, Jauggernaut was a character who had super-strength
and invincibility, but was murderously insane.) Spike's
forward momentum grinds to a halt, too, in the moment that
he realizes what he'd just been trying to do, in the
bathroom. Xander even comes to a full stop in the backyard
scene with Buffy, where he tries to listen to her, and
explain why he felt as he did about her relationship with
Spike, rather than fall back into "Mr. Judgmental" mode.
So there are some interesting gender issues at work here,
too. Willow is the only woman to figuratively see red;
Xander is the only male one to literally see red. (Warren
aside; I don't remember if he actually saw the harm his
bullets did.)
I am tired, and would like to spend more time thinking about
this, but wanted to get my initial thoughts out there.
[>
just want to say I think that's a SUPERB idea for an
essay, can't wait. -- yuri, 01:19:28 05/08/02 Wed
[>
Don't forget: Seeing Red is Nerd Siege -- The Sun's
Up, 01:23:51 05/08/02 Wed
[>
Re: Interpreting the Title (Spoilers for Seeing
Red) -- Kate, 05:37:58 05/08/02 Wed
And don't forget, Tara is once again seeing "Red"
(Willow)
Would love to read your essay
[>
Re: Interpreting the Title - Another Red Scene --
Rachel (I've been gone for a while...glad to be back),
06:55:53 05/08/02 Wed
I was struck by the crypt scene with Spike and Clem. It
almost seemed to be filmed in B&W, except for the bright red
bed on the coffin.
[>
Re: Interpreting the Title (Spoilers for Seeing
Red) -- Cactus Watcher, 10:00:12 05/08/02 Wed
ME seems to have quite a thing about red sheets. As I
recall when Buffy sleeps with Parker it's on red sheets (a
very glaring touch of class in his otherwise messy room) and
also when she first slept with Riley. I actually got kind
of a chuckle one ep. when Riley and Buffy were shown on
green and white striped sheets. If you can make something
out of it, Anneth, please do. I sometimes jokingly think
the prop people at Buffy just love red.
[>
Re: Interpreting the Title (Spoilers for Seeing
Red) -- Purple Tulip, 13:17:28 05/08/02 Wed
I too found all of those meanings behind the title, but I
also thought of another one, one which actually jumped out
at me first. Willow has often been refered to as "Red" (by
Spike), as the "Red-head" (by Oz), etc. I thought this
title, "Seeing Red" also could indicate that we are about to
see Willow (Red), see what she can really be like, and see
all of the power that she has been hloding down inside of
her. So essentially, "Seeing Red" could be renamed "Seeing
Willow". Just a thought:)
[> [>
Re: Interpreting the Title (Spoilers for Seeing
Red) -- !?, 15:20:33 05/08/02 Wed
I agree with you - I think Willow could be wanting some
revenge, like what she did to Glory when she brain sucked
Tara.
[> [> [>
(Spoilers for Seeing Red); speculation on Willow's
future -- Fred, the obvious pseudonym, 15:48:10
05/08/02 Wed
"This is the story of the wrath of Achilles."
It's been a while since I read the "Iliad," but there are
parallels that I find interesting. Achilles, the greatest
warrior (the "big gun") of the Greek forces, is sitting out
the combat -- long story but basically he felt he was dissed
by the other Greek leaders. So he lurks in his tent and
passes the time pleasantly with his same-sex lover,
Patrocles.
[Willow, for different and better reasons, is sitting out
her use of magic; she, now reunited with her same-sex lover,
is passing time pleasantly.]
With Achilles out of the game, Hector, the Trojan's "big
gun" (let's leave the Freudian implacations alone) is
ripping through the Greeks like a wolf in the sheepfold.
The Greeks beg Achilles to intervene; he refuses.
Patrocles, moved by sympathy for the beleaguered Greeks,
volunteers to put on Achilles' armor and pretend to be that
hero to try to deter Hector. He knows full well that he is
not as powerful a warrior as Achilles, but hopes things will
work out.
[Tara, although a witch, is less powerful than Willow; she
remains engaged with her friends and their concerns.]
Hector kills Patrocles. Achilles, who is, in part,
responsible for the tragedy due to his inaction, mourns,
gets new armor, and comes out after Hector like the wrath of
God.
[Warren kills Tara. While we don't know exactly what Willow
will do, it is a likely prospect that by the time she's done
with Warren, his remains will fit into a matchbox with room
left over for a Russian microchip and a fortune cookie.]
The analogy may collapse here; Achilles destroys Hector and
dishonors his body. King Priam of Troy, Hector's father,
goes to Achilles to beg the return of the body of his son.
Achilles relents.
We'll see.
[>
Re: Interpreting the Title (Spoilers for Seeing
Red) -- J,
18:34:00 05/08/02 Wed
Perhaps it's too obvious a point to make, but "Seeing Red"
seems to be the inverse of "Something Blue" in both plot and
title.
Spidey
Connor? -- West, 02:40:53 05/08/02 Wed
Did anyone else happen to pick up on the distinct likeness
between the battle with Connor and the special effects in
Spider-Man? It was definately a new approach for Angel, with
the bouncing in and out of slo-mo interspliced with rotating
digital perspectives. Plus, Connor's own agile movements
held a lot of similarities with the Wall-Crawler, especially
when he scaled the back of that bus.
Wonder what radioactive nasty he was bit by in the Hell
dimension...
[>
I found the slo-mo a little irritating -- Masq,
09:31:19 05/08/02 Wed
The first time it happened, it really dug in Angel's angst
about fighting his own son and his friends nearly killing
his son. The rest of the time it seemed kind of show-
offy.
Have yet to see the new "Spider Man" yet. Waiting for the
crowds to thin at the theaters....
[> [>
slo-mo needs to be subtle, if done at all --
Solitude1056, 09:57:01 05/08/02 Wed
I've no problem with slo-mo, just that when it's done, it's
either terribly overused or used only in really cliche
situations. Gee, like Connor running away from the hotel -
okay, that's a cliche. (Ignoring the whole setup blah blah
blah being one huge TV cliche, no matter how well ME can
handle it.) As for the fights, at first it seemed hokey -
the whole slomo "nooooooo!" just screamed WE SPENT A LOT OF
MONEY ON THIS SO PAY ATTENTION, IT'S IMPORTANT TO THE PLOT,
OR AT LEAST IT'S REALLY IMPRESSIVE AND THE NETWORK LIKED IT.
The more they used the CGI - and in some cases badly done
CGI, like that leap onto the bus - the crankier I got.
Fortunately, the script itself was reasonably solid, Connor
is well-played, and Wesley continued to beat DB at the
brooding game. And here I was thinking no one could brood
like Angel, wow, how little I knew. Next, Wes'll be in some
cool black leather pants and then things will get really
fun. ;-)
[> [> [>
A moment of true unhappiness, and we get...
Wesleyus -- Masq, 10:39:56 05/08/02 Wed
And whose neck will get snapped?
[> [> [> [>
Bwahahahah! but seriously, Wesleyus would be far more
frightening... -- The Second Evil, 11:00:15 05/08/02
Wed
He'd torture his victims by forcing them to do grammatical
diagrams of sentences in archaic languages.
[> [> [> [> [>
in other words, he'd bore them to death. -- Masq,
11:15:20 05/08/02 Wed
[> [> [> [> [> [>
Wesleyus -- Arethusa, 13:56:40 05/08/02 Wed
Evil Wesley. I'm definitely in with that. Wes, making
insulting literary allusions. Fencing with both wit and a
rapier. Treating women with disdain of biblical
proportions. All stubbly and full of pain. Darn you, Masq.
You've gone and made me fantasize about a tv character.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [>
Just as long as you don't start sighing, "He's
soooo cute when he's torturing people." -- Masq,
14:30:52 05/08/02 Wed
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
Heaven forbid. May I write an essay on his moral
ambiguity? -- Arethusa, 15:13:07 05/08/02 Wed
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
now that would be cool! will it include leather pants
references? ;-) -- The Second Evil, 15:20:21 05/08/02
Wed
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
Shouldn't that be an essay on "The evil
of..."? -- Masq, 15:53:28 05/08/02 Wed
[> [> [>
Surprisingly -- matching mole, 11:15:01 05/08/02
Wed
I found the slow motion actions sequences quite effective.
I'm not a fan of combat scenes or of the use of special
effects for their own sake. You could say I'm a less is
more kind of guy in that respect.
Violence/combat on BtVS/AtS is usually fairly matter of
fact. It isn't really glorified but neither is it shown in
gory detail. Usually it is just really fast. I think the
slow motion really emphasized the emotional impact of these
scenes. Angel is fighting his son whom he desperately does
not want to lose a second time. Connor is fighting in a
strange new world with which he is completely unfamiliar.
Point of view seemed a lot stronger than usual in this
episode and I think the combat effects emphasize that.
[>
Speaking of Spidey references (spoilers for Seeing
Red) -- Humanitas, 18:47:19 05/08/02 Wed
I noticed that Warren's beat-down of his former jock-
oppressor was remarkably similar to Peter Parker's fight
with Flash in the current film. Almost the exact same
fight, in fact (dodge-dodge-POW!) with the same character
"types" (overconfident jock vs. newly-empowered nerd), yet
with exactly the opposite emotional impact.
I guess context really does make a difference. ;)
Profound
Messages, kryptonite and other matters. *spoilers* for
SR -- Anne, 03:54:17 05/08/02 Wed
I'm having a bit of trouble sorting out my reactions to
tonight's episode, so I put together the following little
multiple choice quiz to help myself out.
Let me know what you think.
1. The Profound Message of the season based on tonight's
episode, is:
a. That's what you get for mixing with Their Kind.
b. That's what you get for mixing with Your Own Kind.
c. If You're the Slayer You Don't Have to Take
Responsibility for Beating Your Boyfriend Because the
Writers Will Give You a "Get Out of Jail Free" Card in a
Subsequent Episode.
d. "Trust in Joss" translates into English as "Run like the
dickens!".
2. The central premise of the show is that the Slayer is a
tiny blonde girl who can lift a Troll Hammer like it's a
number 2 pencil, while a super-powered vamp like Spike can't
even budge it.
This premise was suspended during one scene in SR
because:
a. Steve DeKnight really prefers watching the "Gilmore
Girls", and they forgot to tell him about the strength
thing.
b. Spike had a chunk of Kryptonite in his pocket
c. Joss thought that next season's theme of the "joy of
female empowerment" could best be set up by turning Buffy
into such a mewling victim that we would never hold her
accountable for her own earlier abuse of Spike.
d. It was the only way ME could think of to make the
audience hate Spike as much as he deserves to be hated for
being more popular than Buffy.
3. The scene in which Tara was shot needed to be extremely
graphic because:
a. Not everyone in the audience had started puking yet.
b. That's what you get for mixing with Your Own Kind.
c. It made that joke of having Amber in the credits for the
first time just before her character got killed off so much
funnier.
d. It was the only way ME could think of to make the
audience suffer as much as they deserve to suffer for liking
Tara better than Buffy.
4. The folks at ME:
a. Are a bunch of geniuses
b. Have many years of therapy to undergo before becoming
useful members of society.
c. -- can't live with 'em, can't live without 'em.
d. What the heck is ME?
[>
Do fans think Buffy deserved to be raped? What ever she
has done she doesn't. -- moneyman, 04:17:15 05/08/02
Wed
[> [>
QED -- Anne, 04:39:09 05/08/02 Wed
Nobody, including certainly me, thinks that Buffy or anybody
deserves to be raped.
But I do think that it was a misconceived plot contrivance,
and that it was designed precisely to produce the kind of
emotional reaction you just had to Spike's action, to divert
attention from what Buffy had done earlier. I am talking
about what the writers have contrived to do with respect to
a character, not about what anyone deserves in real
life.
Because you are so upset (rightly) at the attempted rape,
you will never again even consider holding Buffy responsible
for her own actions with regard to Spike. The writers have
manipulated our knee-jerk responses in order to give their
protagonist a free pass.
And that's why I say QED.
[> [> [>
And Spike didn't? ... (rant, possibly Spoilery,
too) -- Earl
Allison, 05:01:17 05/08/02 Wed
Let me start by admitting my bias -- I've said on these
boards once, and I'll say it again, I have a bias for
Willow
and can forgive her despite what she does in these last few
episodes, evil or not.
Now, we have comments that Spike's act here diverts
attention away from Buffy's earlier bad behavior, and
excuses it.
Assuming that is true -- so what?
(some) Spike redemptionists have been excusing or ignoring
Spike's behavior for SEASONS -- somehow it's wrong only when
applied AGAINST Spike?
We see Spike attempt to bite a woman once he thinks the chip
is deactivated -- the excuse is "oh, we don't know if he
would go through with it." Well, assuming that was his only
reason, to test the chip, why not take a poke at someone?
Or point a gun at them? We know that even the act of
pointing a gun at someone, a real gun or not, triggered the
pain response -- why even go through the motions of
attempting to kill someone?
We've seen Spike treat Harmony like crap -- and even
casually attempt to murder her -- why? Because she prattles
annoyingly? She's his own KIND at this point, and she
genuinely loves him, and he treats her badly - maybe his
treatment from Buffy is karmic justice. He gets her to
indulge his kinks by dressing up as Buffy and constantly
manipulating her -- even after he was chipped -- but somehow
this gets forgotten when Spike, Paragon of Virtue (TM) is
brought up, as opposed to Buffy, Purveyor of Evil and
Violence (patent pending).
Why does a brief period of decent behavior absolve Spike, or
make him acceptable? It's odd, because most of the posts
praising Spike and/or condemning Buffy also seem to want to
damn Willow for her actions, if she kills Warren and
rampages.
Why does Spike's brief flirtation with Good absolve him, and
yet Willow's potential brief flirtation with Evil should
condemn her and wash away the majority of her life, a life
fighting for the Good?
At least try for consistency, won't you? (as a group, not
any one person)
And the chip itself can be argued as a plot contrivance,
devised to make viewers forgive Spike's previous actions and
absolve him of blame -- much as it seems to have already
done.
Take it and run.
[> [> [> [>
Re: And Spike didn't? ... (rant, possibly Spoilery,
too) -- Anne, 05:25:16 05/08/02 Wed
The difference is, we are not being asked to absolve Spike.
Everybody on the show blames him, he blames himself, and it
seems pretty clear that the writers are going to put him
through some more suffering for it. And good for them, I
say. But that doesn't let them off the hook for having
Buffy get clean on what she has done.
And morally, the issue always is what you do, not what
somebody else does. There is nothing Spike, Warren, Willow,
Satan or the Great God Pan can do that absolves the
protagonist from responsibility for her own actions. And if
and when the writers do so (and by the way, to be fair, the
final results are not in on this; the writers may yet give
me what I'm looking for on this) then they are writing a
show that is morally bankrupt.
[> [> [> [> [>
And Spike didn't? ... (rant, , too) Spoiler for SR
-- alcibiades, 07:28:54 05/08/02 Wed
Angel hasn't been getting a get out of jail card free
lately. With Connor, it looks like he's going to be paying
for a lot of suffering he caused and mistakes he made.
I don't think Buffy is going to escape having to pay either,
or dealing with the beating, her own capacity for privately
committed evil.
The difference of course is that Xander already knows
something about what Spike tried to do to Buffy. Buffy is
so ashamed of what she did that she hid it from everyone,
even from Tara. I have a feeling, however, that it was very
much on her mind in that final scene with Xander when she
admitted she had been making a lot of mistakes lately, and
did he want to compare.
Spike's already been proved right once -- her life got a lot
less miserable once the truth was out. She had one
uncomfortable talk with Xander, and Willow never even
bothered to ask her about it. And poof, forgiven.
Everything mended. Buffy made such a mountain out of a
molehill and tortured both herself and Spike for so long on
this issue. So I kind of think that next time something
relating to the beating comes up, Buffy is going to face up
to it and not be such a coward anymore about taking
responsibility for her own actions and failings.
Unless this is just another fleeting Buffiphany. But I
really, really hope not.
[> [> [> [> [> [>
Re: And Spike didn't? ... (rant, , too) Spoiler for
SR -- Anne, 08:29:32 05/08/02 Wed
I think there's a chance you're right, I'm just not sure --
well that's one reason I keep watching, right? And in any
case, it's not that I want to see the poor woman punished or
have to pay for anything -- I think we've seen the
punishment all season, and I for one have had enough. It's
just that I want to see her tell the truth and act
accordingly.
[> [> [>
My take for what it's worth (Spoilers for SR of
course) -- shadowkat, 07:30:12 05/08/02 Wed
I've been posting this take on soo many threads..why not
one more. ;-)
Yes it was an intense scene but actually not as bad as
others on Btvs or any where near what everyone is yelling
about. People calm down.
LEt's look at some past history for comparison purposes and
think about it objectively for a moment. If you can do that
- you might see some of the exciting stuff I saw last
night.
1. Harsh Light of Day - he does try to rape her in this
episode. I've seen it five times now and the push
against
the pole was definite attempt. He showed no remorse. He
wanted to hurt her.
2. The Initiative - he tries to rape Willow on the bed and
can't. Shows no remorse, just embarassement at being unable
to carry this out. The show is shot for laughs - but I
always found the metaphor disturbing and scary and
ironic.
3. Consequences - Faith attempts to rape and kill Xander and
shows 0 remorse. Xander was trying to help her in the
scene.
4. The PAck - hyena Xander attempts to rape Buffy at school,
she knocks him in the head with a desk, but there
is a moment that she's at his mercy. No remorse. He
denies
any memory of it.
Now let's talk about last night's scene. It was not just
a
device. That scene accomplished several things at once if
you were paying attention:
1. Spike is going insane, he doesn't understand why he hurts
so much, why he cares so much, and why he can't stop.
He also doesn't understand why she can't give in to her
feelings for him - feelings he can sense and are in fact
mentioned to him by Dawn. This character is on the verge of
a nervous breakdown - he's losing control of his identity,
the new version of himself he worked so hard to build,
everything. Dawn gives him a branch and he's desperately
holding on to it. Buffy knocks it away. Their dialogue
is telling - he actually apologizes and tries to explain
what happened with Anya. She tells him that she can't
trust
him. He tells her trust isn't important, only passion is -
that makes sense, he's a romantic, he's arrested, he
loved
Dru passionately for 100 years, he never trusted her.
Buffy
tells him that without trust - love can't be sustained. It
will burn itself out - this is what she discovered with
Angel and Riley and everyone else. Trust - she's learned is
essential. Spike hasn't learned this yet. Desperate to prove
to her and himself that she has feelings for him, that
he's not insane, that what he feels is returned, he
attempts
to force them out her, what does he say? "I'll prove you
feel for me" - it reminds me a little of what he said way
back in Fool For Love -"come on, give it to me Buffy, hit
me". He is trying, albeit unsucessfully and pathetically, to
recreat the scenes in Smashed and Wrecked. But she's hurt
this round and feeling lousey and it doesn't work, instead
he just hurts her - horribly. He didn't intend to, but the
demon got out, the emotions took control and he couldn't
stop. This doesn't excuse his actions...of course.
He believes he could have stopped after she knocks him
across the room. But she states that he wouldn't have,
if
she didn't stop him. She says "Ask me again why I can't love
you?" And the look on his face is filled with horror
at what he did, pain, loss, and remorse - the last time I
saw a look like that on Spike's face - Doc had thrown him
from the Tower in the Gift. He tries to convince her
otherwise, but he knows he can't he knows that because of
his actions - he's lost her and he leaves quickly
without
even stopping to pick up his beloved jacket. That's how
fast
he takes off.
2. Buffy - she blames herself. She tells him she should
have
stopped him long ago. She tells him she does care about him
but she can't love him because she can't trust him. When
Xander finds her - she's devastated, not about the violence,
she sees that every day, but about the loss. Xander
threatens to go after Spike and she stops him.
She pushes it aside. But it is clear from her position on
the floor, she was standing when Spike left, that she
feels
pain for the loss. She should - she feels weaker for it,
he represented her id, her darker self, the part no one
could handle but him. Rejecting him means in a sense she
must reject it as well - just as she rejects it at the end
of her dream in Restless. HEr left hand is gone and what
happens next? She's shot.
3. Spike in his crypt - what an amazing scene - so full of
character development. Spike is tormented. He can't stop
reliving the violence of the scene and it hurts so much as
we can see on his face. He literally breaks a glass in his
hand. He asks himself what did he do then why couldn't he do
it. He is at war with himself. When Clem comes in - he asks
Clem why he feels like this. Clem believes he's talking
about love. But it's more Spike tells him - it's the pain in
his skull, the crawling squirmy feeling, like
jiminy cricket. He didn't use to feel like this. He'd
killed
two slayers. He's a vampire and vampires kill slayers.
That's how it works. Why can't he go back? It must be the
chip. The chip won't let him be a monster and he can't be a
man - so he's nothing. When Clem asks if he broke up with
her again - he says we were never together - she'd never
sink so low as me. He considers himself beneathe her.
I'll never get to her level.
When he leaves - he's going to get the chip removed,
because
Spike, the Scoobies and 80% of the audience believe
that's
the only thing that keeps him in check, that he can't
change. As Xander puts it - he's a dog on a leash. I
think
the chip is irrelevant now. Spike has changed. He just
doesn't know it yet.
This episode and that scene had to happen in order for him
to find out. In Btvs - a character has to hit rock bottom
before he can learn what he's made of and trully change.
Spike just did.
[> [> [> [>
Two quibbles -- Sophist, 08:20:14 05/08/02
Wed
I think you've mentioned the scenes in HLOD and The
Initiative before in your posts. I remember disagreeing then
and wanted to say something now. Before I do, let me say
that I like the rest of your post.
In The Initiative, it is clear to me that rape played no
part in the scene. Spike came into the room and announced he
was going to kill Willow ("no choice about that"). He
offered her the option of staying dead or of being vamped.
His assault was a bite for the throat, nothing else. The
aftermath, which is my favorite scene in all of BtVS, would
not have been funny if rape had been involved and would
never have played that way.
In HLOD, Spike was a pig about Buffy's sex life, but I saw
no rape attempt there either. He intended to kill her, but
was playing with her first. Tormenting her, insulting her;
sure. But no sexual assault per se. At least I never saw it
that way.
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: Two quibbles -- shadowkat, 08:36:42 05/08/02
Wed
Two things that made me think it was a "rape" metaphor:
1. He pushes her sensually and agressively against a
pole
in HLOD - it's hard to catch b/c it's quick, but it
is sexual, seen it four times now. She reaches back,
grabs
his neck, he backs off.
2. Initiative - he straddles Willow on the bed, presses
down and moves towards her neck - first attempt. Also
Vamping has always been a rape metaphor. The Initiative
is about date rape...letting the guy in...and how
she goes on about how he can't perform b/c it's her -
the script reads out of one too many scenes i witnessed
from friends in college. It's amazingly subtle but
effective.
They aren't important - except to show how differently
he reacted last night.
Thanks by the way on the other...
[> [> [> [> [> [>
Re: Two quibbles -- Malandanza, 08:46:49
05/08/02 Wed
The best analysis of the scene from The Initiative
that I've read is Masquerade's (from the ATPoBtVS
main site):
Sexual violence: It's another cute Spike and Willow
moment until we stop thinking of him as the emotionally
sensitive vampire we think we know and look at the situation
from another perspective. A man enters a woman's college
dorm room, threatens her, and when she tries to run, he
throws her on the bed, turns up the stereo to block out the
sound of her screams, and then attacks her. The only thing
that saves Willow is Spike's Clockwork Orange impotence.
From this point of view, Willow's need for reassurance about
her desirability is not so funny. A vampire's bite is about
predatory violence, and in this case, revenge. To think of
it as sexy is to equate all such attacks with the more
benevolent moment from Graduation, and to forget how even
then Buffy had to coerce Angel to feed on her and that she
almost died as a result of it.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [>
Thank you - Masq and you said it better than I did
-- shadowkat, 08:56:00 05/08/02 Wed
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
Sorry, still don't see it. -- Sophist, 09:31:04
05/08/02 Wed
ME has used the biting=sex metaphor, but they've also
frequently (in fact, much more frequently) shown that a bite
is just a bite. It's food or the kill, not sex.
That's still how I see the scene from The Initiative; there
is no dialogue or physical action on Spike's part to suggest
sex was involved. I can't see letting an inconsistently
applied metaphor override the actual words and actions in
the scene, especially when those words and actions reinforce
the usual goal of vampire biting for food or kill. And I
have to say that the irony of the aftermath would be
entirely lost if rape had been involved; there is no humor
in such a case.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
I agree, Sophist. The difference is.. -- Tillow,
11:51:25 05/08/02 Wed
... the two other scenes use sexual violence as a metaphor
of the monster. This was a direct attack from Spike/William,
the man. I don't think we can even compare. This, I think,
is by far the worst moment of Spike's character on the show
because not only has he committed an act against Buffy, he's
committed an against his moral code. He moved from being
love's bitch, to a dark obsession's bitch.
My small quibble with the above post would have to be that
he let his demon out. I think the far more disturbing thing
is that he let the man out, and the man is having a crisis
that led him to a truly violent and horrible act that is
against his nature.
This wasn't Spike of Harsh Light of Day. This was Spike if
Entropy, comiserating with Anya... now going mad.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
Re: I agree, Sophist. The difference is.. --
shadowkat, 12:31:47 05/08/02 Wed
Interesting:"This, I think, is by far the worst moment of
Spike's character on the show because not only has he
committed an act against Buffy, he's committed an against
his moral code. He moved from being love's bitch, to a dark
obsession's bitch."
And may actually be the point of change - I think that
hitting rock bottom in this way - betraying his moral code -
has shaken him to his core. And may be what he needs to
climb onto the (hesistant to say road to redemption) but
another higher path. Sometimes you have to do something
horrible to realize what's wrong. I believe the act will
torment him more than her in the days ahead.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
Re: I agree, Sophist. The difference is.. --
clg0107, 12:21:10 05/09/02 Thu
This probably ties in with the whole quesion of the
duster.
William was dominant in that scene in the bathroom, not the
demon. There was no vamp face...just a man begging to be
loved and not understanding -- anything.
Yet again with the disclaimer: That doesn't excuse that he
reached a point where he was attempting to force himself on
her.
But, in the fact that this was not his intent, and in light
of their past relationship, and simply the fact that sex and
violence are so mixed up in his mind anyway (because we
don't honestly think that William was getting any back in
1880 -- his only experience w/sex have been as a
vamp...)
The point is that he didn't mean to hurt her, and he did
anyway, and he knows it and it's torturing him.
I find it fascinating. What a catalyst. The act wasn't
healthy. But him being spurred to figure it out, make a
choice, take some action, something. That's healthy.
Yes, this season has seen everyone hit bottom, so that they
can start fighting their way back. This is how it's
happening with Spike. William. One of them. Both of
them.
~clg0107
[> [> [> [> [> [>
Re: Two quibbles -- Derik, 09:04:25 05/08/02
Wed
It is interesting how this season the vampire/sexuality
metaphor has changed from being an metaphor to a
reality.
Which goes along with my new theory, that this season is
about subverting some of the previous metaphors of the
show.
[> [> [> [> [> [>
My turn to quibble (spoilers for seeing red) --
Traveler, 11:11:07 05/08/02 Wed
I generally agree with you and can see the rape metaphor in
some of your examples, but there is still a big difference
between metaphore and reality. We could forgive Spike more
easily for trying to bite Willow that we could for trying to
rape her, especially considering that he offered her eternal
life as a vampire (something he would consider a gift). In
"Seeing Red," there is no metaphore and we are exposed to
gritty reality. Perhaps that is a sign of growing up too. As
when Katrina accused Warren of rape, perhaps now Spike may
see some of his earlier actions in a different light. At
least, we can hope he eventually comes to his senses.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [>
Re: My turn to quibble (spoilers for seeing red) --
shadowkat, 11:46:57 05/08/02 Wed
Interesting:"We could forgive Spike more easily for trying
to bite Willow that we could for trying to rape her,
especially considering that he offered her eternal life as a
vampire (something he would consider a gift.)"
Apparently you have no trouble with Spike killing her?
Because that would be what he'd be doing.
So if Spike tried to bite Buffy and almost killed her
instead of trying to force himself on her like he did -
you'd forgive him? I actually have less problems with
the
scene in the bathroom than the scenes in HLOD and
Intiative.
The scene in bathroom was harder to watch - yes, but I
didn't feel she was in danger like I did Willow in
Initiative or Buffy in HLOD.
Also I sensed regret in him and desperation in the
bathroom
scene, the other two scenes I sensed pleasure and
enjoyment.
It's ironic that the gritty filming of the scene unsettled
us more than scenes in past episodes that were far more
violent and disturbing, ie. The Pack and Consequences
and
even to a small degree Angel's scene with Darla last
year
and Wesely's attempt to kill Fred. It goes to show you how
powerful direction and filming can be.
I think it was supposed to disturb us more - because
this
scene was all about why she can't trust him. That was the
message and she finally got *him* to see it ironically
through his own actions. Until now, HE did not
understand
why she couldn't trust him. I believe that moment will
live
to haunt him more than it will her - I think it will rip
him apart inside far more. And I think...it may be the
deciding factor in his future growth. Until now - I don't
beleive Spike understood that his actions had consequences,
that he could truly hurt something he loved. It's a defining
moment for him. Be interesting to see where it takes
him.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
Trusting -- Spike Lover, 14:25:20 05/08/02
Wed
If Buffy can make that argument, then each pair can. I,
also, do not know why she feels she can't trust Spike unless
it is because he is a vampire, and B learned the hard way
she could not trust Angel.
Spike can't trust Buffy to tell the truth/be honest about
anything, to herself or anyone else.
Anya can't trust Xander to follow through with his
promises.
Earlier in the year, Tara could not trust Willow to stop
using magic.
No one should trust Dawn about anything.
But, no one else is saying anything about trust, which is
rather ironic since trust and broken-trust is a major
theme.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
Re: Trusting -- shadowkat, 07:27:02 05/09/02
Thu
Actually...I'm waiting for cjl to post his trust essay -
dang him! I decided not to do one b/c I like his idea
better. Watch for it.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
Re: My turn to quibble (spoilers for seeing red) --
Traveler, 20:14:55 05/09/02 Thu
"Apparently you have no trouble with Spike killing
her?
Because that would be what he'd be doing."
No, but I could more easily forgive him. Would Willow have
had any qualms about dusting Spike if she had the
opportunity? They were mortal enemies, and Spike was simply
a champion for evil, just as Buffy was a champion for good.
At least Spike gave Willow the opportunity to switch teams.
When was the last time Buffy gave a vamp that
opportunity?
"So if Spike tried to bite Buffy and almost killed her
instead of trying to force himself on her like he did -
you'd forgive him?"
You describe to me a plausible situation where he bites her
and almost kills her, and I'll tell you if I could forgive
him for it.
"It's ironic that the gritty filming of the scene
unsettled us more than scenes in past episodes that were far
more violent and disturbing, ie. The Pack and Consequences
"
I found "The Pack" very disturbing.
"I think it was supposed to disturb us more - because
this scene was all about why she can't trust him."
I'm not so sure about that. If it had happened in season
five, I would be right there with you. But you're
essentially telling me that most of season five and six was
a sham. Sure he helped Buffy. Sure he saved her life several
times. Sure he saved Dawn's life and Xander's life and
Giles' life... but you can't trust him! I can see why Buffy
shouldn't trust him now, but really he has been extremely
trustworthy for quite some time. The attempted rape required
a LOT of build up and a LOT of bad water under the bridge
before it became plausible. Why should it convince us that
he was never worthy of Buffy's trust? Even now, I wonder if
things would have gone the same if Buffy had just
talked to him when he walked through that bathroom
door. Buffy has constantly told Spike that he is an evil
thing, a creature not worthy of her trust. Why are we
surprised that he finally lives down to her expectations and
believes the same thing about himself?
"That was the message and she finally got *him* to see it
ironically through his own actions. Until now, HE did not
understand why she couldn't trust him.
I saw it more as an experience that will force Spike to
choose between being a man or a monster, a catalyst for his
future development. It isn't that he now understands why
Buffy didn't trust him. Rather, now he doesn't trust
himself. He decides that he really is beneath Buffy
and that she could never love him. Does he really want to be
the Big Bad again, or is it just that he lacks confidence in
his ability to be good?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
Re: My turn to quibble (spoilers for seeing red) --
vh, 09:46:07 05/10/02 Fri
"I wonder if things would have gone the same if Buffy had
just talked to him when he walked through that bathroom
door." -- one of the things that really struck me, too.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [>
Re: My turn to quibble (spoilers for seeing red) --
celticross, 14:36:11 05/08/02 Wed
"In "Seeing Red," there is no metaphore and we are exposed
to gritty reality. Perhaps that is a sign of growing up
too"
But don't we see and understand metaphor better when we grow
up?
[> [> [> [> [>
I'm with Sophist on the vamp biting issue--
"metaphor for sex" does not equal
"sex" -- Dyna, 11:01:57 05/08/02 Wed
Vamp literature has a long history of using vamp biting as a
metaphor for sex, but to leap from that to equating it
literally and precisely with an attempted sex act is a
misreading of the text, in my opinion. There's some
literary precedent for viewing vampires as incapable of sex,
so that biting becomes their only form of sexual
intercourse, but in the Buffyverse this is manifestly not
the case. Our vampires are capable of sex, they're capable
of biting, and *the two acts are entirely separate and
different.* To say that in the scene in The Intiative where
Spike tries to bite Willow he's actually trying to have sex
with her is a stretch that just doesn't work, however much
the writers may have drawn on the literary tradition of
vampirism and metaphor for sex to mine comedy from the
aftermath. It's still a metaphor.
[> [> [> [> [> [>
biting and rape -- alcibiades, 20:04:31 05/08/02
Wed
What makes the difference clear in Spike and Willow's
interactions is that in Lover's Walk Spike implies both that
he will bite and rape her. And it is very explicit. It is
also interesting that Spike desists as soon as Willow says
firmly, "there will be no having of any kind."
In the Initiative, the subtext or metaphor might be college
rape, but there is no real need to go there. It doesn't
illuminate much about the "text" to think of it that way.
By the way, shadowkat, I really enjoyed the post that opened
this discussion.
[> [> [> [> [>
I agree- Sophist, Particularly about the Willow
scene -- Spike Lover, 14:00:17 05/08/02 Wed
[> [> [> [> [> [>
Re: I agree- Sophist, Particularly about the Willow
scene -- leslie,
15:12:58 05/08/02 Wed
The thing is, "rape" is not about sex--rape as a crime is
about violence and power, but also "rape" itself means
"carrying off" or "abducting" (Paris's "rape" of Helen,
which begins the Trojan war, is not an act of sexual
violence--Helen was more than willing--it was an elopement;
likewise, most of the "rapes" of classical mythology are
abductions for the purposes of sex, but not violations
against a person's will, as we currently define rape). In
this sense, I think that Spike's attack on Willow *is* an
attempted rape in a very Greek sense. Going back to the
Hades and Persephone theme--he's offering to "rape" her into
the Land of the Dead, or the Land of the Undead--her choice,
but he's carrying her off one way or the other.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [>
Maybe I'm too much of a lawyer (isn't any too much?),
but -- Sophist, 17:17:16 05/08/02 Wed
isn't the theft of a life not rape but murder? Whether in
mythology or otherwise?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
Re: Maybe I'm too much of a lawyer (isn't any too
much?), but -- leslie,
08:35:22 05/09/02 Thu
In mythology, I would say no--not if the mythology includes
a specific location where one exists in an afterlife, and
not if the person doing the "raping" is in the postition of
a "lord of the dead/underworld." But this is purely in
mythological terms--in real life, yes, killing someone is
murder, but then, in real life, vampires don't exist, so the
whole question is moot.
Within the framework of BtVS, I would say that murder is
when someone is killed and that's it--the assistant mayor
that Faith killed, the science teacher killed by the preying
mantis lady, the Doublemeat Palace employees devoured by
penis-head lady. Harmony, however, and all the other people
who are vamped, are clearly in a different category. Yet I
wouldn't necessarily term the circumstances of all their
vampings as "rape," (though maybe I would), I'm just
pointing out that the antecedants of the term "rape" do not
conform to what we currently call the crime of rape, and
that what Spike was trying to do to Willow has a lot more in
common with mythological rape than the current argument
realizes. (Tangential note--in Irish mythology, there are
two kinds of stories in which men and women run away
together for sexual purposes--one is called "aitheda",
"elopement," and it always is in the context of the *woman*
forcing the *man* to run away with her, and they always end
badly. Stories in which the man grabs a woman and runs off
with her are called "tochmarc", or wooings, and they usually
end reasonably well, even though the woman has no choice in
the matter.)
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
Interesting. Double standard much? -- vh,
09:41:15 05/10/02 Fri
[> [> [> [>
Re: My take for what it's worth (Spoilers for SR of
course) -- yuri, 09:29:53 05/08/02 Wed
thank you for explaining Spike's side of it in relation to
Buffy's so well. I don't want to lose or put aside the
amazing angst and confusion he went through in Seeing Red.
The Gift look (I saw it too, it makes sense because in a way
he lost her right there almost as surely as if she died) and
the tomb scene were powerful. I didn't interpret Buffy's
mood afterward as you did - I really felt like she was
sitting there sadly hating him and herself and all, feeling
remorse and general relief that it was over - but I could
buy it, if it played out that way.
There is talk in this thread of how vampire feeding often
connotes rape, but I am suprised that no one has discussed
the ambiguity of Spike's motives. To my eyes, he first
seemed to be trying to force himself upon her sexually, but
then he was going for her throat, and I assumed he in some
way wanted to turn her. If that was his motive, what does
that change about the scene? If he had fed on her rather
than raped her, how would people's reactions change? Some of
your references to similarly disturbing scenes are ones that
imply feeding, not rape, but you draw the parallel as if
they are no different. Even if one metaphorically represents
the other, doesn't the actual act make a difference?
Oh yeah, one more thing - your bring up the point that Dawn,
in her relative ignorance of their relationship, may have
given Spike some dangerous hope about Buffy. That's pretty
key. I was sitting there watching the scene with her in his
crypt and cringing, knowing that it couldn't be good.
P.S. heh, after reading this I realize I sound like a huge
Spike fanatic. I'm not at all, it's just what the post
sparked in me. I was horrifyed at the bathroom scene, one
hand clapped over my mouth and the other over my forehead,
just leaving a little slit to see through. I do suppose that
was what was intended.
[> [> [> [>
Thanks! -- verdantheart, 11:14:49 05/08/02
Wed
Good points -- 'specially about Dawn. Couple that with the
"Like hell" from last week and you have a recipe for
disaster.
[> [> [> [>
parallels -- Solitude1056, 11:16:28 05/08/02
Wed
Don't know if anyone else has mentioned this, but Spike
confessing to Clem that it must be the chip sure
reminded me of Buffy protesting to Tara that it must be
because I came back wrong - both wanting something
external that would justify their actions, absolve their
responsibility...
[> [> [> [> [>
Good observation. -- Wynn, 14:55:42 05/08/02
Wed
Didn't Steven S. DeKnight write Dead Things too? There seem
to be many parallels between the rock bottom of Buffy (the
alley beating) and Spike (the bathroom scene).
[> [> [>
Get Out of Jail Free cards -- Malandanza,
07:53:19 05/08/02 Wed
"I do think that it was a misconceived plot contrivance,
and that it was designed precisely to produce the kind of
emotional reaction you just had to Spike's action, to divert
attention from what Buffy had done earlier."
I felt the same way about Spike's torture by Glory -- it
erased his serial killer/stalker activity and his kidnapping
and bondage games with Buffy and Dru. No one remembers
(well, except me, Dochawk and Earl Allison) that Spike
threatened to kill Buffy if she didn't agree to have sex
with him. One instant erased every vile deed he had every
committed or tried to commit and excused all his future
deeds.
"If You're the Slayer You Don't Have to Take
Responsibility for Beating Your Boyfriend Because the
Writers Will Give You a "Get Out of Jail Free" Card in a
Subsequent Episode."
"Get out of Jail Free" cards abound on Buffy -- Willow and
Spike seem to have inexhaustible supplies. But Buffy used
her only one after she tried to kill Faith -- she has
always suffered for her actions, and suffered far out
of proportion to the crime. In the alley scene (that the
Redemptionistas can't stop talking about) Spike was
preventing Buffy from going to the police. Imagine if one
of your co-workers decided to prevent you from leaving your
work -- getting in your way, forcibly detaining you and
dragging you back when you tried to push past -- what would
you do? Just stand there? Let him manhandle you? It was
Buffy's decision -- not Spike's.
"The central premise of the show is that the Slayer is a
tiny blonde girl who can lift a Troll Hammer like it's a
number 2 pencil, while a super-powered vamp like Spike can't
even budge it.
"This premise was suspended during one scene in
SR..."
This premise was also suspended in The Body when
Buffy had difficulty defending herself from a newly risen
vamp. Similarly, when Buffy faced Sunday, she was easily
beaten. In times of emotional distress Buffy is weakened.
When angered, she is strengthened.
"It was the only way ME could think of to make the
audience hate Spike as much as he deserves to be hated for
being more popular than Buffy"
Plenty of us hated Spike long before it was cool to do so.
What I can't understand is how so many Buffy "fans" can bear
such hatred for Buffy. Hasn't she suffered enough? What do
you want from the girl?
Personally, I don't think the rape scene was necessary to
have Buffy hate Spike. Sleeping with Anya and revealing the
secret to Xander at the moment it would hurt him most ought
to have been sufficient; however, Spike just used yet
another of his "Get Out of Jail Free" cards and the whole
thing became Buffy's fault -- she should have defended him
(but didn't she save his life by stopping Xander?), he did
it to protect Anya, or maybe it was Xander's fault (things
usually are, right? If he hadn't been so mean to Spike all
along, Spike would never have slept with his ex-fiance).
I also think the rape scene gave Spike yet another "Get Out
of Jail Free" card. He came across as a confused Frat boy,
surprised that his girlfriend thought he was being too
forceful -- isn't that what she wanted? It's really her
fault, for all those mixed messages. On the other hand, we
heard Buffy say something like "This time I stopped
you" which suggests that all those other times also
contained a strong element of non-consentual sex.
"It was the only way ME could think of to make the
audience suffer as much as they deserve to suffer for liking
Tara better than Buffy."
Tara's death is all about Willow, not Buffy.
Seeing Red was consistent and well written. The
problem you have with Spike being held accountable for his
behavior is not the fault of the writers.
[> [> [> [>
Xander gets lots of GOoJF cards (spoilers to Seeing
Red) -- Vickie, 11:38:15 05/08/02 Wed
Xander never seems to have to pay for his "crimes;" at
least, not until this last (Hells Bells and later) sequence.
Others have compiled more comprehensive lists, but just off
the top of the noggin:
Xander blackmailed Amy and, with her help, cast a spell that
backfired causing all the women in Sunnydale (except
Cordelia) to obsess over him. We don't know if anyone was
hurt (nothing was shown), but given the level of violence we
saw, it seems likely.
Xander lied to Buffy about Willow's message in Becoming2,
leaving her to fight Angelus without the knowledge that he
might suddenly become Angel again.
Xander summoned a singing/dancing demon to "make sure we got
a happy ending," and at least two people burned to death.
Buffy nearly did. Dawn almost went to hell on a
honeymoon.
And then he doesn't even use the information he gets
from that summoning to ensure his happy ending with
Anya. Seems as though, after singing his way through
I'll Never Tell, he and Anya should have had at least one
heart-heart-talk, no?
I love Xander. But he gets away with (everything except)
murder on a regular basis. Until now. Should be interesting
to watch his reactions.
take it and shred...
[> [> [> [>
Re: Get Out of Jail Free cards -- verdantheart,
11:42:22 05/08/02 Wed
"we heard Buffy say something like "This time I stopped you"
which suggests that all those other times also contained a
strong element of non-consentual sex.":
Ahem. Maybe Buffy would like to believe that, but I don't
think so. Several times Buffy started out saying she didn't
want it, but ended up initiating it. She could have stopped
it in any occurrence and should have if she did indeed mean
no. As a woman, I still believe that a woman has some
responsibility to be unambiguous about her intentions, which
I can hardly say about Buffy -- she herself was confused
about what she wanted. How is Spike not supposed to
be confused by this no-means-yes behavior? He should
just lay low and let her continue to initiate (or not), but
screws up (in his desperation) as usual.
Again, I don't believe Spike was justified in what he did, I
simply understand why it happened.
[> [> [> [> [>
You understand? That's sick, your just as blind. --
gabby, 16:01:54 05/08/02 Wed
[> [> [> [> [> [>
Re: You understand? That's sick, your just as
blind. -- vh, 09:03:32 05/10/02 Fri
I sorta expected this sort of response. Like I said, I
understand it, not condone it. I think I have a pretty good
understanding of why serial killers (incl. the sexual
sadists) do their thing. Does this mean I approve of them?
Hardly. Do I think Spike was justified? No. Did Spike think
he was justified? No, he was pretty appalled by his actions;
he didn't think through what he was doing, he let the moment
carry him, as usual and now has time to regret at leisure.
Does he want to become purely evil again (get rid of the
chip?)? Yes, trying to be good hasn't worked out very well
for him (I can't be a man). Does the fact that the event can
be understood and that Spike is remorseful make Spike a good
guy? No. Could he become a good guy (re: remorse)? Deck's
stacked against him; that's what makes it interesting.
[> [> [> [> [>
Agree with you, vh. Doesn't help that the sitch just
isn't cut-and-dried. -- Solitude1056, 21:13:40
05/08/02 Wed
[> [> [> [>
Re: Get Out of Jail Free cards -- Dochawk,
16:12:32 05/08/02 Wed
Mal,
Not suprisingly I agree with everything you said 9and you
say it way better than I do). I would like to add one
point, whcihI dont get. The idea that Spike has some
remorse from his actions. I need to see the shooting script
but my interpetation of his encounter with Clem and his
leaving statements were that he couldn't stand that the chip
keeps him from being the monster that he is, that he wasn't
able to finish the job he started. I thought it was more
chilling than the actual rape attempt scene.
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: Different Take On It -- SpikeMom,
17:15:16 05/08/02 Wed
It played out to me that Spike is going to get the chip out
so that Buffy can see he is capable of loving her as a
Vampire and without the chip. That in spite of being a
fully functioning Vamp he can and will choose Good over
Evil.
Buffy's trust argument is just an excuse. No matter who she
is involved with, trust will always be an issue. She
couldn't trust Riley and he was the original innocent farm
boy. She isn't brave enough to trust so she uses Spike's
inhibited Vampirism as an excuse to push away the
relationship.
He tells Buffy to get all comfy (and I think he means in her
excuses and what she chooses to believe about the
relationship); he's going to remove all the excuses and then
we'll see who is really capable of love and who's not.
I also thought Spike's description of the "Jimminy Cricket"
chip and creeping wires, etc. sounded just like Dru's
description of it in Crush.
[> [> [> [> [> [>
Re: Different Take On It -- Rufus, 14:51:57
05/09/02 Thu
The Jiminy Cricket reference I did't hear but saw on Closed
Caption...did they take that obvious hint out?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [>
Re: Different Take On It -- Lilac, 15:12:54
05/09/02 Thu
Rufus, you have made me feel better -- I have seen "jimminy"
refered to many times, but I didn't hear it either time I
watched the episode. I was beginning to think I was going
deaf. Now I have to try with the captions on -- that
reference seems pretty important, doesn't it?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
In a word.....yes -- Rufus, 19:23:21 05/09/02
Thu
Add in the reference in OMWF to "being a real boy someday"
when Spike refered to Sweets minion.
[> [> [> [> [> [>
I sure didn't take it that way -- verdantheart,
06:53:04 05/10/02 Fri
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: Get Out of Jail Free cards (SR spoilers) --
Arya_Stark, 11:37:10 05/10/02 Fri
Spike certainly was able to finish the job he started. The
chip doesn't work on Buffy. The chip had nothing to do with
stopping him.
Spike may blame the chip, but it has nothing to do with his
interactions with Buffy. He can still be the Big Bad and
kill the Slayer if he wants to because the chip doesn't work
on her.
[> [> [> [>
Hallelujah! Keep on speaking it, Malandanza. --
JBone, 17:41:58 05/08/02 Wed
[> [> [> [>
Evilistas Celebrate!! -- LeeAnn, 13:26:28
05/09/02 Thu
No one remembers (well, except me, Dochawk and Earl
Allison) that Spike threatened to kill Buffy if she didn't
agree to have sex with him.
When did this happen cause I'm one of the people who don't
remember it either.
I remember Spike making what I thought was an empty threat
in Crush to kill Buffy or Dru and trying to get her to give
him something, any admission that there might be something
between them, some crumb. (Spike: Just ... give me something
... a crumb ... a barest smidgen ... tell me ... maybe,
someday, there's a chance.) That's different than "have sex
with me or I'll kill you." He had her shackled. If he wanted
to have sex with her that much he already had the chance
when she was unconscious. But Spike wanted her to admit an
emotional connection, not force a physical one. At least in
Crush.
Now in SR he wanted an admission of an emotional
connection...AND tried to force a physical one on her.
Happy now. Spike betrayed his love. Proved it was worth
nothing. The people who believe Spike is evil have won.
Celebrate.
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: Evilistas Celebrate!! -- Doriander, 18:29:58
05/09/02 Thu
Happy now. Spike betrayed his love. Proved it was worth
nothing. The people who believe Spike is evil have won.
Celebrate.
Erm, I'm "evilista" Spike fan. He's mainly the reason I'm
drawn to the show. I'm in the I-like-Spike-and-but-still-
consider-him-evil camp (tm AngelVSAngelus). I never saw him
on the path to redemption. I never considered him
redeemable.
And you know what, I'm not celebrating, because I stand
corrected after this episode. Why? He showed remorse. He
doesn't recognize the guilt he's feeling, but it's there. I
would have thought this is a breakthrough for the
redemptionistas' camp. Do I hate this ep for undermining my
stance? No. In fact now I'm more eager than ever to find out
what's next for my favorite character. Spike is
unpredictable. However his previous unpredictable acts:
intent on killing Buffy ends up comforting her, not ratting
on Dawn because it'd kill Buffy, etc. can all be attributed
to his love for her. And Spike has been love's bitch from
day one. But guilt, recognizing that he has done something
wrong (What have I done?), even if he amended it a second
later, that's new to me.
As for Spike betraying his love, he betrayed Dru (conspiring
with Buffy against Angelus) before. It shouldn't be
surprising. Forcing himself on Buffy to make her love him,
not much different from tying up Dru, torturing her till he
loves him again. But Spike set out to torture Dru with a
gleeful attitude, while he left Buffy haunted with her
pleas, disgusted with himself.
It's not true that his love for her meant nothing. It meant
so much that it drove him to examine himself (even for a few
minutes). Before, he tried to be good for Buffy. Helped out
the Scoobies and watched over Dawn to honor Buffy. Told her
over and over that he’s changed. He's basically conforming
to the kind of guy Buffy would like. He's done the same with
Dru ("I want Dru back, I've just gotta be the man I was, the
man she loved."). Buffy’s gave lip-service to not believing
him, not trusting him, he can’t change cause he’s not a man.
We, however, know she trusted him enough. The tragedy of
that scene is that his action proved what Buffy has accused
him of, at the same time, it’s the moment that he did
change. But it’s too late. He’s done something unforgivable.
Buffy will probably never forgive him, nor will the
Scoobies, or a constituent of the fan base. But this episode
showed me redemption is possible for him after all, should
he choose to take it on.
Now I'll retreat over to the fence bet. Evilista and
Gray!Spike.
[> [> [> [>
I'm with you except for this one bit... -- Dyna,
14:36:44 05/09/02 Thu
"On the other hand, we heard Buffy say something like "This
time I stopped you" which suggests that all those other
times also contained a strong element of non-consentual
sex."
I didn't hear that--I thought what she said was something to
the effect of "you stopped because I stopped you." He's
starting to apologize, to say he hadn't intended to harm
her, and she tells him the only reason he didn't is that she
stopped him before he could. Given the context, I took this
to be referring to what had just happened.
I don't think we've had any reason to believe that their
past sexual encounters were nonconsensual, and it would be
very strange for the writers to be retconning that now.
Buffy's been in denial about her motives for initiating and
continuing the relationship, but she's never denied being a
willing participant, i.e. to Tara, when she confesses she's
been "using him."
[> [> [> [> [>
Retcon..spoilers thru entrophy -- LeeAnn,
16:34:45 05/09/02 Thu
Buffy retcons her relationship with Spike for Dawn
BUFFY : Dawn - I did the breaking up. Spike was obsessed
with me.
DAWN : Oh. I just thought-
BUFFY : I'm serious. He was acting like a total stalker-
It was Buffy who came to Spike again and again and initiated
sex with him. (Spike in AYW:You know what I am. You've
always known. You come to me all the same.) In Smashed. In
Gone. In As You Were. But now that she has broken off with
him she's lying about why she broke it off.
It was because HE was stalking her. I think once you're
sleeping with a guy it's supposed to be a good thing if he
comes to see you occassionally. She didn't seem to mind when
she made it with him at the DMP or in her yard but now that
it's over, that was stalking. That was why she broke it off.
Not Riley making her ashamed of boinking Spike.
[> [> [>
Sometimes it scares me the ammount of women who defend
Spike... -- Goji3, 13:50:36 05/08/02 Wed
I mean, He's a big ID with an externally imposed physical
Ego (I hope I don't confuse Ego and Super-Ego...)forcing His
Brain, which, is in the prosess of decomposing (joke), to
act as an Super-ego.
Think a little about that. He does 'Good' only when there is
the prospect of a reward for him.
Remeber, when Buffy broke up with him for the umpteenth
time, he admited that there relationship was not a 'good'
one. and he followed it up by saying that he didn't care.
He has little, if any morals. Notice that after his initial
disgust at what he did in SR, it quickly turns into blame
towards someone else. or, rather, something else IE: his
Chip.
He reminds me of the 'Jerks' and 'Assholes' portrayed in the
work of Jhohnen Vasquez, specifically: "Johnny the Homicidal
Maniac" and "Squee"
vile, amoral beast who spout such lines as:
"Not...grasping. she speaks of my manliness, but
in...what...a negative way? CONFUSION!?"
"Awww Yeah, I see girl...ohhuhuohhh...i like...to touch"
"Me and some freinds were standing out in front of the 24-7.
just trying to get my mind of this girl. she broke up with
me, she was always telling me what to do - 'Stop hitting
meeee! Quit asking me where I've been! Stop kicking grandma!
Don't do that to my Hamster!' I mean, Shit, I'm just me, and
if that's not goof enough..."
"So Weak! Look how he makes me seem tougher!"
Caption bubble for pannal done in "Asshole-vision" - (2 side
notes "Degredation is easy to do!" and "It is easier to
laugh than to face one's own ignorance - Confucious")
"Puny Muscles = just BEGGING to have ass kicked"
"Looks like Dork = Dork"
"Stands out in a croud = Must be ridiculed"
"Skinny = Fag!! Threat to manliness!"
"Weird, leather boots = San Fransisco (And you know what
THAT means.)"
"Just plain looks funny = gets my mind off of how amazingly
stupid I am"
As well as Idiots who spout such memorable lines as:
"You're Right, I'll agree with you cuz your in a band and I
want you to like me"
Before I go On, the author included a note about the
works:
"STUPID PEOPLE: i would ask you to keep in mind that this
should NOT be taken as a source of moral guidance (THAT
WOULD BE MOVIES). Put away the knifes and never allow
yourself to fogret YOU ARE STUPID - JVC"
Satire is fun.
Anyway...whoa, Kinda lost my train of thought,
Ah, here's a more pertenant quote, applies DIRECTLY to
B/S
"Woeful Deceit. Soon will you keep each other's company
merely to sustain your own gutteral desires. Enjoy
yourselves while your simple lust is veiled by dillusions of
complex affections" -- True, this is from Wobbly Headed Bob,
but still, its in J:tHM
Buffy knew that is was a lust thing...Spike did not. He was
in the 'Dilusions of complex affections' thing. Buffy was
not, and all B/Sers want her to have them.
I'm glad she learned her lesson from Angel. Honestly, do you
WANT to go through that again!?!
Here's a special one for Spike, as an explination of Buffy's
stance with him (before the rape-attempt) as told by Wobbley
Headed Bob:
"You're pathetic delusion flatters me! How open you are in
exposing your defective and Easily misled mind!"
And now, Bob explains the Whendoian truth!
"That smile on your face is all the proof I need to see that
you are miserable. You're "Happiness" is little more than
the setup for an old, yet hideously cruel Joke: the
punchline being your ineveitable, pathetic realization that
you've wasted so much time thinking that somebody could
actually 'love' you!!"
Bob's a pesimist.
The thing that gets me as to why people forgive spike is
That he has no regret for what he has done in the past!
people who don't regret past offences scare me. on Buffy, ya
gotta brood about um too:
(Quick cut to Vasquezian take on Faith's situation
w/Finch)
Buffy: You killed a man
Faith: yeah, it was an acident. Sorry, ok. Can we move on
now?
Angel: NO! You gotta brood about it first!
(Return to topic)
Ok. Now, what was the point of this?
Oh, Yeah. Spike has no regret for any past actions, he is
like the Assholes portrayed in J:tHM, yet, people want to
forgive him.
That kinda scares me, actually.
Then again, Nny said it best about this kind of over-
anylization:
"Any Pile of stunted growth unaware that enertainment is
just that and nothing more, deserves to doom themselves to
some dank cell, somewhere, for having been so stupid!!
Movies, Books, TV, Music - they're all just entertainment,
not guidebooks for damning yourself!"
This from a guy who kills people on a daily basis. I enjoy
watching...er..reading about him, but, I know he's not all
there...hell, he even knows he's pretty messed up. and he
even has felt remorse for past actions (blowing up a coffe
bar for no real reason--that's not his 'Style')
Where the HELL does Spike get off with this redemptive bull!
He's just as bad, if not worse, than Nny, yet, people defend
him!?
I remain confused as to why?
Please, don't go the rout of 'JM is a good actor', It does
not apply here. Go away.
And not even his attempted Rape of Buffy, who punishes
herself constantly (who the hell says she's not paying for
this! Whatever happened to the Trade Mark made on
BroodyBuffy (TM)?) changed there minds about Spikes
nature.
God, I really don't like Spike, and this just gave me the
boost to be Pompous, Vindictive and Condecending!
Wow.
this is a big post!
[> [> [> [>
Amen! I don't understand the girls who fawn over this
rapist, make me sick. -- gabby, 15:58:41 05/08/02
Wed
[> [> [> [>
Re: Sometimes it scares me the ammount of women who
defend Spike... -- warped, 18:28:45 05/08/02 Wed
What are you trying to say? Of COURSE Spike has no morals.
Of COURSE he has no remorse for his killing in the past.
He's a vampire, for pete's sake. He's supposed to be evil.
What do you expect him to do? Act like a man? I don't
understand the redemptionists' argument. Spike shouldn't be
redeemed because 1) boring storyline - saw that with Angel
and 2) he doesn't have a soul. Why should he be redeemed? Or
want to be?
What makes us like him (or at least just me) is the fact
that he transcends his demon nature to accomplish some clear
acts of good. It's amazing how much Spike has done to help
the Scoobies. Now, whether or his intentions were honorable
or not is debatable - yes, I agree his want of love from
Buffy and lust for killing were his prime motivations in
helping the SG, but the actions he committed remain stellar
because they are so for a vampire. Compare Spike to Angelus.
Both without souls, both evil. But look at how far Spike has
come. Angelus would never commit acts so foreign to a
vampire. This is why I find the bathroom scene so
disturbing. In it Spike violates his own moral code. He
feels remorse! Vampires aren't supposed to have a moral
code! After the writers set us up in the past seasons to
accept Spike's capabilities for good, they blow us away with
this awful, awful scene in which all his effort is thrown
away. (I'm still deciding whether or not this is bad
writing/ out of character) He hits rock bottom, just like
Buffy did when she physically abused him in Dead Things. The
war between man and monster in Spike is agonizing.
A key theme in this season is that humans can be just as
bad, or even worse, than demons themselves. Spike's actions
with Buffy in SR are not excusable in any way; nobody's
forgiving him here. But it's understandable. And Buffy's
treatment of Spike (mixed messages/leading him on), along
with Xander's treatment of Anya (the corrections etc.) and
Willow's treatment of Tara (mind-wipes) aren't excusable
either. Spike along with the SG are moving into more and
more morally ambiguous territory. Both humans and demons
have done evil and good here.
...And one more thing. We don't "fawn." Spike is an
intriguing, ambiguous, extremely complex character. And I
treat him as such.
I think I took some of the above posts a little personally,
so excuse me for that. I don't know if any of this was
coherent, but I hope maybe this affords an interpretation
into Spike's character and why some of us like him so
much.
[> [> [> [> [>
I can turn your agruement on its head... -- Goji3,
10:41:08 05/10/02 Fri
By saying that his acting good was out of character due to
external forces acting upon him.
And, Without Morals, can one truely be good?
[> [> [> [>
That scares you sometimes, that the Spike character is
popular....really..... -- Sturm and Drang, 19:09:09
05/08/02 Wed
Its just a tv show kids. I like Magneto an awful lot and
Darth Vader, too. Does that frighten you?
And I usually root for the heels in the WWF.
Stop taking pretend stuff so seriously. The melodrama over
this has gone from amusing to boring, fast.
Sabertooth is really cool, too. Why, the time he stayed at
the X-mansion as Professor X's 'guest' and nearly
killed.....oh well...you probably don't want to hear about
it.
[> [> [> [> [>
No, it scares me because some people seem to support a
a rapist, doesn't matter if its on TV. -- gabby,
20:30:29 05/08/02 Wed
[> [> [> [> [>
Liking them as characters is fine, but ... -- Earl Allison,
02:08:38 05/09/02 Thu
I really think you're missing the point.
Yes, BtVS is a television show, but one that is taken
"fairly" seriously on this board, where posters use
incredible insights of logic and/or philosophy.
Like Magneto (especially the early Claremont Magneto) and
Vader all you want, but are you, in that liking them,
excusing their actions, saying that they are great people
who don't deserve to be labelled villains?
THAT is part of what Goji3 is saying, that Spike is being
excused for pretty much anything he does, and that IS
scary.
If it were just "Gosh, Spike is an interesting, complex,
entertaining character," that would be fine, but that's NOT
what's being said. Spike has in the past, and even during
"Seeing Red," committed some truly awful actions -- and way
too many people are willing to turn a blind eye to them.
Which would also be fine and dandy, were it consistent, but
it ISN'T. Many of them then slam Xander, or Willow, or
Buffy, because somehow they don't stack up to poor, put-upon
Spike the serial killer.
As for the Sabretooth story arc -- IIRC, it was received
rather badly by fans exactly because it was stupid in the
extreme. Sure, let's let a feral, already-proven-
irredeemable killer in the Mansion where he can get loose
and kill lots more people. I will always think the X-Men
weren't firing on all cylinders for that one.
Take it and run.
[> [> [>
Hasn't changed my view of Spike, but its changed my
view of the writers.... -- OtherEric, 18:51:46
05/08/02 Wed
They've gotten lazy, and apparently think they can do
whatever they want without people starting to hate them and
dislike their bad writing and therefore the show.
Even before this episode, their attempts to make me hate all
the main characters (in non-subtle, awkward forced ways)
have left me wanting it to become the Spike + Clem + Troika
show. Oh well. Sooner or later most Joss types fail us.
Lucas did, JMS did....only Toriyama has never failed me.
Vegeta could show up and destroy the whole town and everyone
in it and wouldn't even care. I'd just probably watch more
Angel. They're not a bunch of walking clusterf#cks in the
field. There appears to be this wild new notion of there
being some sort of concept of a team.....
And if Marti thinks every relationship that doesn't end in
tragedy is boring, then it makes even more sense that the
only comic she ever read was Richie Rich. Stupid
writers........maybe they'll get me back. Trey and Matt
did, but it took time, and ME has pulled their own terrence
and phillip except they've done it on the level of a whole
season. Good work, crew. The Vorlons would be so proud. I
keep waiting for the first one to show up or some other
'genius' macguffin or deus ex machina device. Perhaps,
since they apparently needed Spike to leave town so badly,
they could have had Sheridan and Delenn show up and just
tell him to go away. It worked on the Shadows after
all.......stupid bastards.
[> [> [> [>
Deus Ex Machina ... Like Cordelia last week? -- Earl Allison,
02:11:42 05/09/02 Thu
I'd have been a bit more convinced if you hadn't mentioned
that -- you like Angel -- after the deus ex machina of
Cordelia's demon powers being used last week?
Just looking for consistency.
Take it and run.
[> [>
No one Deserves to be Raped, EVER!! -- Wolfhowl3,
06:06:12 05/08/02 Wed
Now I love the Character Spike, but last night, I thought he
so deserved to have a close encounter with Mr. Pointy!
Wolfie
[> [> [>
There is not one single person saying that they do. And
QED again -- Anne, 06:20:39 05/08/02 Wed
[> [> [>
Re: No one Deserves to be Raped, EVER!! --
verdantheart, 11:24:17 05/08/02 Wed
I wholeheartedly agree.
However, some victims put themselves in situations that are
rife with danger. Take for example the coed who goes to a
frat party of her own volition and gets very drunk and is
then raped by several frat boys. Are the frat boys guilty of
rape and generally completely reprehensible behavior? Of
course. But the woman was extremely stupid to put herself in
that position.
Buffy put herself in a dangerous situation by boinking an
emotionally unstable vampire who is by her own admission
evil and obsessive. She compounds the problem by refusing to
communicate with said vampire and punishing him for loving
her (and making her feel something for him, although God
knows what exactly that something is). Do I think she
deserved what she got? No. Do I think she might have
expected something like that to happen? Yes. Could she have
avoided it? Yes, by not boinking said vampire and getting
his hopes up while humiliating herself. He was extremely
respectful and did not push until she started kissing
him.
[> [>
Not so subtle SPOILERS IN ABOVE POSTING SUBJECTS!!
-- LittleBit, 06:54:57 05/08/02 Wed
[> [>
a different question -- skeeve, 08:07:07
05/08/02 Wed
Did Buffy deserve to think that she was about to be
raped?
[> [> [>
No -- monkey, 08:37:58 05/08/02 Wed
[>
Re: Profound Messages, kryptonite and other matters.
*spoilers* for SR -- Etrangere, 05:23:31 05/08/02
Wed
1. The Profound Message of the season based on tonight's
episode, is:
e. Never trust anyone you love, either you'll be betrayed by
the one you love, either your happiness will be destroyed in
a gruesome way (TM). Oh, just never love or trust anyone, it
always ends in a bad way.
2. The central premise of the show is that the Slayer is a
tiny blonde girl who can lift a Troll Hammer like it's a
number 2 pencil, while a super-powered vamp like Spike can't
even budge it.
This premise was suspended during one scene in SR
because:
b. Spike had a chunk of Kryptonite in his pocket
And I believe that Kryptonite is called "trust"
Once Buffy actually tried to use force to defend herself
from Spike she had no problem.
3. The scene in which Tara was shot needed to be extremely
graphic because:
e. We've already killed aplenty in previous seasons/episodes
and there's been a lot of BSD rumours. We've got to do it
/really/ horrendious so as they get the point
4. The folks at ME:
abcd all in a row :)
[> [>
Re: Profound Messages, kryptonite and other matters.
*spoilers* for SR -- DEN, 05:38:22 05/08/02 Wed
The kryptonite=trust image is BRILLIANT! Buffy can't quite
believe it's happening until it almost does! The scripted
injury, which heals by the time of her fight with Warren,
is also shown as slowing her down--but she doesn't WANT to
throw the switch at first
[> [>
Re: Profound Messages, kryptonite and other matters.
*spoilers* for SR -- Anne, 05:42:42 05/08/02 Wed
To be fair, I think you've got a point about number 2 --
maybe that's what they meant to convey, but it just rang
false to me. It came across to me as a device, not a
natural outgrowth of the characters and assumptions of the
show. But it obviously worked for you, and there's no way
for me to claim that my take on it is the objectively right
one.
It has also occurred to me that you might be right about
number 3. However, I think they might, as some speculate,
be planning another one of their bring-her-back thingies,
which would vitiate the impact. I hate to root against it,
in deference to all Tara lovers, but if they bring her back
it will expose this violence as gratuitous.
I agree with you on number 4, of course. I'm teed off about
a few things but I do love 'em.
Number 1 is the most difficult. I don't really believe in
"Profound Messages", in the sense that I don't believe in
didacticism in art. That's one of the things that makes me
profoundly uneasy about Marti Noxon's interviews this year:
she seems to think her job is to teach us little life
lessons about correct dating procedures in your twenties.
I'm just hoping there's more to what they're doing here.
In order for the attempted rape scene to really contribute
to the story, we have to see two things, in my opinion.
First, the story of Spike has to contain something other
than his coming back comic-book 2-dimensional evil. And I
don't actually think they're going to do that, but they
might. The other thing, which I've harped on enough
elsewhere to just touch on briefly here, is for Buffy at
some point to specifically acknowledge that in her
relationship with Spike, he was not the only monster.
[> [> [>
Profound Message and Trust *SR spoilers* -- Tillow,
06:27:25 05/08/02 Wed
First point: I absolutely agree about the trust thing,
Estrangere.
As she is saying she doesn't trust him, perhaps she is
realizing that she has trusted him more than she would like
to admit all along (her earlier conversation with Xander
where she defends him with the same redemptionista arguments
used over and over... you fought beside him, you trusted him
with Dawn).
But in this scene he breaks her trust, truly. I can't see
how they will get it back, ever. Even though I will concede,
Anne, she has done horrible things to him, he walked into
that knowingly "put it on me...put it all on me" while Buffy
pleaded and begged and appealed. "Spike, I'm hurt."
Second point: I think the profound message goes back to the
musical. Understand we'll go hand in hand but we'll walk
alone in fear. Tara and Willow finally got it back.
External forces took what they had away. As callous as it
may sound, that does happen sometimes and as Buffy tells
Willow in Something Blue, you have to "Work through the
pain." The reason Tara is such a wonderful character to me,
is that she was always able to work through her pain, she
was a grown up. Now, perhaps we'll see Willow again faced
with a situation she can not face.
Walking alone in fear has been 1) Xander, resorting to
alcohol. 2) Anya has fallen back on D'Hoffryn but it seems
her heart is not in vengeance anymore. I love what they are
doing with Anya. 3) Buffy who has relied on her relationship
with a dead man "whisper in a dead man's ear, doesn't make
it real" Now she is finally opening up to people other than
Tara (xander and dawn). Perhaps this was the manus/hands in
restless. I've seen a lot of talk lately about it being
about Dawn and Spike. But perhaps it is just about her
accepting help, and in doing so, reentering the land of the
living.
Her journey in restless was about rejecting the manus/hands
but at the same time, "Give me back my friends." Hope she
finds them all!
[> [> [>
Hello, my name is Etrangere and I'm a Buffy addict
-- Etrangere, 17:04:43 05/09/02 Thu
Well, I agree with your point about "profound message", I
did answer this in a non serious way. I don't think this
were the message they want to convey ;)
I don't know wether MN really wants to go in the deep into
the After-school effect. But one thing has always been true
about Whedon, he wants to give us what we need and
not what we want (i'm paraphrasing one of his quote), so
he's at least somewhat of a moralist (in a very weird, non
conventionnal way) but for me, as long ME keep its work
ambiguous enough as we can interprete it into several ways,
along several morals, it's ok. Take a look at the
discussions on the board, what do you think ? :)
This scene had two effects on me as a Spike fan and a B/S
shipper. I'm very doubtful about the ship now, not in a "i
don't think it will ever happen" way, but in a "I don't
think i want that to happen" way. I just have trouble
imagining Buffy actually want Spike after that.
And I'm convicted that they're aiming at a redemptionnist
storyline from now on. There's just no way they could do
anything else. This scene was awful, horrendious, because,
as other have pointed already, it was realist, real, it was
a man's crime, not a vampire's crime. (which makes it all
the more ironic Spike's blaming of the chip). Yez pointed
about the importance of Spike not being in game-face,
someone else mentionned the scene with Willow in The
Initiative that also had rape undertone and that was
played for laugh ! because at that point Spike's
character wasn't human enough to be expected anything else
from. So it wasn't a big deal. But now stuff are different,
and we've seen Spike feel guilt, actual moral qualm for the
first time. He made me think of Angel in Five by five (in
the Flashback), who's trying to go back to the simpler life
of evil... but just can't do it, when he blamed it on the
chip.
So, no, I've no doubt that the story for Spike from now is
redemption - and that needed him to do the worse possible
thing.
There's one thing we must admire with ME, whatever else we
can criticize. They dare everything.
You know what ? The fans might be seeing red, ME might be
seeing red, but i'm going to watch that bull right in the
eyes and say double-dare and when he comes I'll take him by
the corns and enjoy the ride.
What can I say ? I'm a masochist.
Bring on the angst ! :)
[> [> [> [>
Hello I'm Shadowkat and a Buffy addict! Agree on all of
above -- shadowkat, 18:48:19 05/09/02 Thu
[>
In defense of Spike (SPOILERS! SPOILERS!
SPOILERS) -- Darby, 06:00:11 05/08/02 Wed
Please let's not forget that not everybody has access to the
new shows yet...
Oh my God! They killed Tara! Those bastards!
Sorry, had to get that out of my system.
The "rape" scene has an interesting structure - watch it a
second time (c'mon, I know everybody here has it on tape).
There are repeated cuts from far and "body" shots (I'm going
to have to compare it to the alley scene in Dead Things - I
suspect some resonance exists) which portray a vicious
crime, interspersed with shots of the faces of the two
protagonists -
Spike's face is amazing - a mixture of desperation and
distance, the face of someone trying to convince Buffy that
she loves him in the only way he's been able to elicit
passion from her, while not quite being aware of how this
has turned from sexplay to assault.
I'll grant the "trust as kryptonite" analogy, but I would
also add guilt, and the continuation of Buffy trying to fend
off reality (Ete footnote) with as little effort as she can
get away with. This is not being played as a helpless
victim being overpowered, but as someone who is faced with a
situation of their own creation that they desperately wish
would go away. And when it becomes obvious that violence is
needed, it's delivered, swiftly, and ends the exchange.
And THAT is what Spike reacts so extremely to - the
realization that Buffy is completely out of his thrall, that
she could really excise the hold he had over her, that he
had accepted as the proof that, down in her darkness, she
really loved him. (Shades of Parker & Buffy!) The
understanding that, in going through some legitimate changes
to please her, he may have irrevocably changed his own
nature (I'm not saying that this is true, but at the moment
he doesn't even know himself - he needs that chip out to
discover the truth). And that sends him packing.
I don't think that this was physically ever any more of a
rape than B&S's other sexcapades - but the crime is in the
motives, at least partly, isn't it? Spike was looking for
acceptance, for consent, yes doing some physical coercion,
but was quick to stop when the answer (which he in no way
wanted to hear) was clear.
As for the rest, I'm still processing. Those bastards!
[> [>
Re: In defense of Spike... my two cents (Spoilers
through SR) -- Wynn, 06:55:21 05/08/02 Wed
"They killed Tara! Those bastards!" I very much agree. I
love the character of Tara, and I love Amber Benson as an
actress. I will miss Tara very much. On a side note, the
SG are really on their own now, forced to grow up; they
don't have Giles, Joyce, or Tara anymore- all arguably the
most mature and understanding characters on the show.
To the Spike/Buffy scene- I find Spike's forcing himself on
Buffy equivalent to Buffy's beating Spike to a bloody pulp
(a beating rivaled by the one he received from a god). Just
because Spike didn't try to stop Buffy in Dead Things like
Buffy tried to stop him in SR doesn't make her actions in DT
less horrific. Nobody deserves to get beaten like that- no
matter if they ask for it or if they're a soulless demon;
just like nobody deserves to be raped. Both Buffy and Spike
were completely ruled by their emotions in DT and SR and
both acted horribly.
I am saddened by the situation between them. They're fight
in Smashed summed it up perfectly for me- they don't know
where they fit in or who they are anymore, and they are
trying desperately to discover who they are now. I believe
that both have hit rock bottom; hopefully things will begin
to improve. I don't know if I can handle any more angst
between them in addition to whatever poor Willow is planning
to do in the next few episodes.
Wynn
[> [> [>
Re: I don't find it equivalent (Spoilers through
SR) -- LittleBit, 11:29:56 05/08/02 Wed
The thing that made "the bathroom scene" so different for me
was the change in tone. Spike arrived there fresh from
Dawn's revelation that his actions had hurt Buffy. He
wants to, needs to, talk with her. Yet, the first
thing he asks is, "are you hurt? You're not movin' so well."
And Buffy responds with the obligatory "Get out."
Spike doesn't and asserts their need to talk. Buffy syas she
doesn't need to, Spike reminds her that it isn't only about
her. She tells him to leave. He goes on to quietly apologize
because he needs her to hear it, not because he thinks it
will matter. She ask why, he tells her he cares, she
responds with an understandable accusation regarding
sleeping with Anya (whom she calls 'her friend').
[accusation 1 - founded]
Spike tries to explain, the instant evil assumption pops out
and then he begins the frustration of never being given the
benefit of the doubt. [acusation 2 - unfounded] He, with
emotion, lets her know he just wanted the feelings to stop
(not unlike Willow in Something Blue, which interestingly
enough is the first time we see Buffy & Spike as a
'couple').
She understands this; it hits home. He says she should've
let Xander kill him; this hits home ever harder and she has
to admit she couldn't allow it, that she does have
feelings.
She even catches herself in the middle of telling him she
doesn't and has to stop and admit it.
But she isn't able to take it to the level Spike wants /
needs. Not love. No trust. Spike scoffs at the trust issue
(after all he never trusted Dru) and tells her how he sees
love. "Great love is wild...and passionate...and
dangerous...it burns and consumes..." Buffy: "Until there's
nothing left. Love like that doesn't last."
This is what she had with Angel, what she had to deny for
Angel. And for the first time she may be starting to admit
that she has moved on, that the great love has waned. She is
also not denying that she may feel that way about Spike,
she's asserting that she doesn't feel the kind of love she
wants in a partnering. It's also why the scene continues as
it does.
And then things change. Spike does believe that what they
have is wild and dangerous, and also that this is why
they have it. Spike is determined to prove to her that she
feels the same way. Buffy's response shows that she
has started to trust him, whether she admits it or
not. She asks him to stop, uses "please, no" and
tells him it hurts, pleads with him to stop, not to do this.
But by this time the 'animal' in Spike is too dominant and
he is incapable of hearing that the dialogue (if it can be
called that) is not the usual trading of insults that leads
to the unbridled passion he is seeking but the pleadings of
the woman he loves (and this is his pov) not to hurt her.
Until she realizes that he is past stopping, and forces him
to.
Then and only then does Spike begin to comprehend how
different this encounter was. When Buffy says, "Ask me again
why I could never love you," he realizes that everything
that had been so precariously built between was destroyed
beyond repair; Humpty Dumpty had fallen. [accusation 3 -
founded]
The encounter was not entirely unexpected. Given the tenor
of their relationship so far this kind of horrendous
misunderstanding was nearly inevitable. Spike has rarely
(not never, just rarely) taken into account someone else's
need for time to adjust. He could be the poster boy for
Inability to Delay Gratification. In a 24 hour time period,
Buffy accused him of spying on her and seemed to walk out of
his life for good; he went looking for a spell to make his
feelings stop; she learned he had sex with Anya; Spike went
public with their relationship; Xander expressed his
profound disappointment and disgust with Buffy and Buffy
actually defended Spike; Dawn inadvertently gave Spike hope;
and they actually had a nearly civilized conversation.
Spike's reaction to this remains fully in character. He is
devastated, he shows the same near suicidal depression he
did about Dru. He knows what happened was his fault. But his
larger question seems to be why. He knows what he is.
Just a day earlier he told Anya he'd bite the "lot of them"
if he weren't chipped. He knows what he's supposed to be. He
doesn't focus on how he could have better handled this
situation with Buffy, but on what the chip is doing to him.
It may be that because he'll never be a man, he wants to be
the monster. This is in stark contrast to The Gift when he
knew he was a monster but appreciated that Buffy treated him
like a man. Not something she's likely to do again any time
soon. So he goes in search of a remedy, he wants to
unleashed monster back. And he leaves his black leather
duster behind. Just as Xander says he never lost sight of
what SPike was, neither did Spike, really.
Buffy's reaction is harder to read. While Spike posts them
on his face for anyone to read, Buffy buries hers so no one
can know them. She doesn't want revenge on Spike, she does
realize that she played her part in getting to the place
they have reached.
The one question that I keep asking myself is: How different
would it have been if she had told Spike, when he asked,
that she was hurt and needed time to heal.
Hope this is coherent.
[> [> [> [>
Great analysis. -- Sophist, 13:08:55 05/08/02
Wed
[> [> [> [>
Agree, great analysis -- Kevin, 17:39:23
05/08/02 Wed
Wonderful analysis. These are complex characters and
situations which can't be reduced to simple black & white,
right & wrong reactions like some of the ones I've been
reading.
It's what makes this show fun to think about...
Thank you
[> [> [> [>
At the risk of being repetitive - Great analysis! -
- ponygirl, 10:11:31 05/10/02 Fri
A very insightful take on a difficult scene! I've been
hesitant about coming back to the board until after some of
the storm dies down from that scene, but I am in total
agreement with your take on it. In many ways Spike never
seemed more human, a horribly messed up and wrong human, but
human nonetheless. With the guilt, the pain and the
consequences. Whatever Spike has gone searching for I don't
know if he'll be able to find his monster again.
[> [>
Aaargh! I screwed up my footnote! -- Darby,
07:51:38 05/08/02 Wed
That'll teach me to try to get clever. (And why can't I
ever use that word without thinking of "clever sheep," and
"Mra-a-a-a-a-a - THUMP!" ?)
The reality thingie should have been TM Shadowcat, of
course.
[> [> [>
Re: Grrr Aaargh - thump -- pr10n, 13:33:06
05/08/02 Wed
Ah ha! Another metaphor for this season:
"Notice that they do not so much fly as...plummet."
[> [>
A quibble -- Caroline, 09:00:00 05/08/02 Wed
I interpret Buffy's emotions a little differently here. I
think that when Spike is using force to try to make her
understand his love, she is feeling betrayed by the way he
is doing it and that is why she is pleading with him to stop
initially rather than pushing him away. She has admitted
that she has 'feelings' for him, so she's no longer in
denial, but won't let herself go further with those feelings
because she doesn't trust him. But how horrible it is when
someone you have feelings for tries to force himself upon
you, and also to know that your own behaviour kinda gave
them the green light for this sort of interaction. Buffy's
waking up and becoming more aware and she's faced the
consequences of her own actions. This was a positive step
for her in many ways.
Can't post more - too much work - but I totally agree with
your interpretation of Spike.
[> [> [>
Agree... -- Darby, 09:16:20 05/08/02 Wed
I just was saying that Buffy was evading the rejection,
which prolonged the scene way beyond what it would have been
and making it look much worse than it would have been if she
had just remained steadfast and halted it at the outset.
And I'm not sure that she has any clear idea of what her
"feelings" for Spike are. Part of her may be feeling that a
pity breakup boink might be acceptable, but she can't bring
herself to submit. If he'd caught her in a different
situation, who knows -?
Another point that I would have expected to be posted about
by now - for commission of an apparent act of predatory
violence, we never see Spike's vampface. It's just Spike,
the confused lover. JM gives good face, no doubt about
it.
[> [> [> [>
Ahh, sorry for the misinterpretation...that means I
liked ALL your post! -- Caroline, 11:47:21 05/08/02
Wed
[> [> [> [>
Good point about lack of vamp face -- significant, I
think. -- yez, 08:19:17 05/09/02 Thu
[> [> [>
Pleading and betrayal -- lulabel, 20:15:48
05/08/02 Wed
For me, one of the most gutwrenching aspects of this scene
was Buffy's pleading - which I would actually describe as
frantic begging. Some have commented on how Buffy's lack of
forceful resistance seems out of character. Well, we've
definitely seen this kind of begging once before - in
"Helpless" when a weakened and terrified Buffy under attack
frantically called for help. I can't think of a single other
instance in the entire series where Buffy has demonstrated
this sort of helplessness.
My first reaction to the bathroom scene was that she was off
her game because of her injury. This of course is the most
obvious reason (I tend to be a rather literal person!) Of
course as you, Darby and Etrangere have pointed out, it was
also the shocking violation of trust which really threw her.
Evidence that she had at least some level of trust for him
before the attack, despite her denials (of which there were
SO many)
I agree that the culmination of this scene was a positive
step for Buffy. I intepreted her calmness and resignation
when Xander found her on the bathroom floor as recognition
on her part that she had some hand in driving Spike over the
edge. (definitely NOT saying his actions were justified)
It's a sign that she's retaking control of her life, that
she's crawling out of her house of denial.
The other thing I saw as positive in all of this was Buffy's
reaction to Spike's assertation that Love is All About
Burning Passion, etc. When she says that love like that
doesn't last, I actually believed that SHE believed it.
Spike's view is the adolescent view, the same view that
Buffy had about her love with Angel. She now recognizes
that there has to be more to love than passion and pain.
What a great leap forward.
[> [> [> [>
Re: Pleading and betrayal -- Ishkabibble,
20:45:19 05/09/02 Thu
"My first reaction to the bathroom scene was that she was
off her game because of her injury."
Something that crossed my mind is that the injury which she
sustained was to her back. Spike has repeatedly said "I've
got your back." Is it just a coincidence that once she
split from Spike, who protected her back, her back becomes
vulnerable? Is this a hint that Buffy is stronger
(metaphorically) with Spike in her life?
[> [>
Nice job, Darby and LittleBit -- helps explain some
stuff for me, thanks. -- yez, 14:19:08 05/08/02
Wed
[>
Re: Profound Messages, kryptonite and other matters.
*spoilers* for SR -- Cydney, 07:27:53 05/08/02
Wed
Reading some of the posts in this thread has changed my mind
a bit - but all I could think about during the B/S bathroom
scene was that both of them were acting out of character. Or
as the writer's have drawn the characters lately!
Spike has gone out of his way to be careful with Buffy and
never, even when sparring, dishing out more that she can
take. Buffy has always given as good or better back. Why
suddenly the victim and the attacker? A rape like
scene?!
It does seem those evil ME writers want us to hate Spike.
Hrumphh. I'm mad at the writers for yanking us around where
Spike is concerned. And, I thought Buffy was finally going
to wise up and understand how she really feels.
I wasn't happy to see Buffy still be so disrespectful of
Spike, but so respectful of judgemental Xander - who at
least admitted his error there - good for him. But why is he
thinking more about Buffy with Spike than his own situation
with Anya? Hmmm.
Dear ME writers: Please don't put Buffy and Xander together
- yuk!
IMHO - Cyd
[> [>
Completely agree. Spoilers for Seeing Red. --
Sophist, 08:50:25 05/08/02 Wed
What struck me about THAT SCENE was how out of character it
was for both Spike and Buffy. Spike has never been
shown to be capable of or interested in rape. In fact,
numerous posts on this board have commented how the women in
his life dominate him. Whatever his faults in the past, rape
is not one. Nor was there enough in the episode to explain
how he could have so suddenly changed character (he was
drinking, sure, but he didn't appear drunk in the scene). It
sure seemed to me like pure contrivance.
Nor did I find Buffy's behavior more believable. I'm aware
of nothing in her past which would suggest she would allow
an actual attempted rape to last as long as this purportedly
did. Again, it came across to me as pure contrivance.
I have only 2 ways to react at this point: to write off the
scene as the most unbelievable scene in the entire history
of the series (and since it has to beat out the ending to
Into the Woods and all of AYW, that's quite a challenge), or
to agree with those who are suggesting that Spike wasn't
"really" attempting to rape her. But in that case, I think
ME was irresponsible in treating such a serious subject in
that way.
It's a little off topic, but I completely agree with you
about Xander. He continued to misbehave until the very last
scene, when he finally did something right. Bander? Ick.
[> [> [>
Re: Disagree. Spoilers for Seeing Red. -- derik,
09:31:36 05/08/02 Wed
Nor was there enough in the episode to explain how he
could have so suddenly changed character (he was drinking,
sure, but he didn't appear drunk in the scene). It sure
seemed to me like pure contrivance.
Changed character? Haven't we seen him perform a number of
desperate acts to regain love? He was willing to put a spell
on Dru to make her come back, instead he decided to go back
to South America and torture her until she gave in (or
something to that affect).
He is changing character, but I don't think it as drastic as
people want to believe. In this case it was a bit of a
change back, but considering his and Buffy's rather violent
sexscapades of late, I don't think it is all that
surprising.
[>
Re: Profound Messages, kryptonite and other matters.
*spoilers* for SR -- skeeve, 08:24:03 05/08/02
Wed
Tara's death scene wasn't all that graphic. The blood
spatter didn't last very long and it served a purpose.
After that, all we saw was a blood spot on her shirt just
like the one we saw on Buffy's shirt.
Now we know why ME sped up the Tara/Willow reunion. It was
a wholly unnecessary plot device. (I'll take that back if
Dawn goes off the deep end over Tara's death.)
Did anyone happen to notice that Warren and a gun did more
damage to the Scoobies than the entire troika and all their
gadgetry and magic? Do you suppose that this will cause a
realverse crusade to keep guns out of the hands of
nerds?
[> [>
Re: Profound Messages, kryptonite and other matters.
*spoilers* for SR -- derik, 09:45:04 05/08/02 Wed
Did anyone happen to notice that Warren and a gun did
more damage to the Scoobies than the entire troika and all
their gadgetry and magic?
Or than most of the other enemies. Guns are the one device
that Buffy has never really had to contend with. It's one
thing to find a demon hand to hand, but someone from a
distance just shooting at her, does not make that Slayer
strength all that useful.
It is not the metaphorical monster that is the demons this
season, it is the real human monster, and human monsters use
guns sometimes.
[>
Re: Profound Messages, kryptonite and other matters.
*spoilers* for SR -- maddog, 14:55:35 05/08/02
Wed
Bitter much?
I really don't know how to answer number 1. But with 2,
Spike never said he couldn't lift it...he just told her it
was really heavy. She fights vamps on a daily basis...and
she gets hit...so trust me, they're on the same level as
her. She tends to be better in battle. As for three, it
was graphic to make the scene much more intense. You're
supposed to be shocked...and that did it(and I even knew it
was coming). and 4, I'd say C. Cause they drive me nuts,
but in the end I enjoy the product.
Current
board
| More May 2002