March 2004 posts
Ave
Maria, gratia plena (Angel Odyssey 5.15)(sp 5.15 and Citizen Kane)
-- Tchaikovsky, 07:25:26 03/09/04 Tue
For Mary, Mother of our Lord,
God's holy Name be praised,
Who first the Son of God adored
As on her Child she gazed.
Brave, holy virgin, she believed,
Though hard the task assigned,
And by the Holy Ghost conceived
The Savior of mankind.
She gave her body as God's shrine
Her heart to piercing pain;
She knew the cost of love divine
When Jesus Christ was slain.
Dear Mary, from your lowliness
And home in Galilee
There comes a joy and holiness
To every family.
Hail, Mary; you are full of grace,
Above all women blest;
And blest your Son, Whom your embrace
In birth and death confessed.
5.15- 'A Hole in the World'
Joss' final episode: and we get from this atheist an episode bulging
with so many religious allusions that it could have been a book
of the Bible, (a particularly funny one). It's also a rather Greenwaltian
episode- there are themes running through it, but they're developed
in a rather scattershot manner, and the coalescing that takes
place in the viewer's head is closer to free association than
structural perfection. So this is neither Joss' highest concept
episode nor the best plotted, nor the one with the clearest message.
It's not the best episode of the Season for me, but it does raise
more questions about life than any other; it leaves me teasing
out contradictions in philosophy and religion that had never worried
me up until this morning. That's one of Joss' gifts I think.
We start and finish the episode on Fred. Initially, we're watching
the eighteen year-old Southerner off to LA - before all the nightmares
and pain start to catch up with her. There's the pointed line
from Fred's Father that she might find 'an Angel'. And strangely
enough, eventually, after a period in which it's not clear whether
she's just a physical commodity, just another cow to the slaughter,
she does find her saviour. He tells her and advises her as to
what she is about to become. But by 'Fredless', she has the opportunity
to shirk her new conditions and the growing Good of Angel Investigations,
and go home with her parents. She decides to stay, embracing her
destiny wholeheartedly. And so throughout the next two years,
she grows, finding out what it is to be a servant of the Powers
that Be, and attracting respect from her colleagues. Eventually,
and after various confusions and complications, Wesley comes to
her as her lover, beginning to understand how she is a strong,
independent woman, not needing to be coddled and, in Wesley's
opinion much greater than he himself.
But Fred is taken ill, and confined to bed with worsening pain.
She wakes up to find herself surrounded by men - all with her
interests and the interests of her illness at heart. The shot
with the six men, Wesley, Spike, Angel, Knox, Gunn and Lorne,
is extraordinary.
Fred's suffering increases, until, almost with the demon Illyria
talking through her, she proclaims to her Joseph, her Simon Peter,
'You Will Leave Me'. Wesley doesn't, and no cock crows. By the
end of the episode, Fred has confusedly given everything, without
understanding the whole of what is going on, to the demon Ilyria,
who inhabits her own body.
With the rather heavy hint in the opening hymn, I hope it's obvious
how much of Mary I saw in Fred in this episode. It's not a straight
transference - and it's also commenting on two other strong women
who gave birth in previous Angel Seasons- Darla and Cordelia,
the latter giving birth to a demiurge. But the pain and the suffering
that Fred must go through here reminded me of some Gothic nativity-
the only way that an unspeakably old dormant power can be raised
back to life is through the impregnation of some woman. Which
leaves Knox as the Holy Spirit, oddly.
But the religious imagery in this episode, and the casual allusions,
are laced through with such vigour and repetition that it is clear
Whedon is thinking deeply about what it is to believe. Here are
just a few of the moments that support the central tableau:
-Way back in the teaser we get Fred casually using the phrase
'hell'. Such apparently gentle oaths go by with barely a thought
in most conversations nowadays, but Joss uses the sense of propriety
of the South to start up his theme- Hell is a dangerous place
to evoke, Los Angeles might be a kind of Hell for his daughter,
and such comparison is not to be taken lightly. Then, with the
utter genius only accomplishable by a writer-director, Joss cuts
to Fred and Wesley with the fire burning beautiful as a background
to their ephemeral happiness. It's worth noting that this incarnation
of Wesley, (who will later shoot a man with no provocation other
than unrelated grief), is the kind of man Fred's father might
well have expected him to find.
-Wolfram and Hart is called the 'House of Pain' in the first act.
This to me conjures allusions of the punishment of sins in Catholicism
at its most vicious. Beyond this, we're later to have the slow
gradation until Fred calls it the 'House of Death' in the third
act. It's not a co-incidence, and the recognition that this death
is an inevitable feature of a world with only the Trickster Creator's
hobson's choices as options.
-At the end of the second act, Lorne tells the assembled group
that he is going to pray, and Wesley thanks him for it. We've
seen little indication of Lorne as a spiritual man before, so
this has the double function of underlining the desperation of
the situation, and once again bringing the question of the usefulness
of religion into the show.
-Standing against this is Spike's promise: 'Not this girl. Not
this day.' The form of words is a not-too-definite parallel to
Aragorn's speech in 'The Return of the King', where he tells the
assembled troops "A day may come, when the courage of men
fails. When we forsake our friends, and break all bonds of fellowship.
But it is not this day." This is an apposite subtext for
the episode, where six very different, very similarly motivated
men all fight for Fred's best interest.
-In Fred's world, there is a rather different idea of how the
Universe runs. Her bunny Feigenbaum is named after the man who
discovered the chaotic fractals that would have interested her
so much. But the very epitome of that chaos is in her confused,
over-wrought mind by the time of her illness. She can no longer
remember who Feigenbaum is. This little detail for me called back
the brilliant 'Citizen Kane'. Later generations can never fully
understand him because Orson Welles' journalist never finds out
the meaning of the word 'Rosebud'. Finally beaten, he is consoled
by a friend of Kane that she is probably just another of the girls
he knew. Then the audience only sees his sled being burnt away.
The key to his life, that kernel of innocent joy, is lost. Here,
do we see Fred's belief that the world is chaos in a similar light?
As a rather innocent, delightful way of seeing it all, when contrasted
to the heavily religously influenced ideas of many of the other
characters. And is this Season, spiralling as ever towards questions
of love, redemption and sacrifice, ultimately going to forget
the joy that Fred stood for in the scramble towards its religious
motif? Seven episodes to go...
-If Fred is Mary, there are also elements of the Messianic about
her in the episode, perhaps rather more clearly. Although I like
to see the six men gathered round the bed as a representation
of the Wise Men, the Shepherds and Joseph helpign Mary in the
stable, there's also the indisputable idea of them as disciples,
trying to save someone in whom all six have encapsulated something
ratehr special of themselves. At times, the idea of saving Fred
seems to be even bigger in their psyche than the idea of losing
her as a person only, not just a paradigm or a paragon. In this
light, Knox' explanation of why he chose Fred to be imbued with
Illyria acts as an explanation of the almost religious devotion
with which Angel, Spike, Gunn and Lorne all go about their duty.
Its motive is correct, but are their some slightly unsavoury aspects
to the way in which it has shown itself?
-Eventually, we see Spike standing over the Deeping-Well (Deeping-Wall
reference, as I suspect Whedon isn't the smallest Tolkien fan),
that goes all the way through the world. It's a striking visual
image, but what does it symbolise? In my reading, more than one
thing. Most obviously, of course, it symbolises the loss that
Fred's inaction and eventual death will leave in the team. But
since Fred does not die until the final scene of the episode,
it must do something else. And for me, the whole is the religion
that Whedon can't find. He lives in a world full to the gunnels
with religious faith, zealotry and extra-ordinary belief. The
belief of Lorne praying, the blind, crazy belief of Knox, the
fundamentalist believer in the Old Ones, who will crazily consider
Fred's (unknowing)opportunity to sacrifice herself for a Goda
privilege. The belief of the Drogyn, who must watch over the Gods,
speaking only the truth about what he feels and sees; a pure unadulterated
faith. Even the somewhat cloudier faith of both Angel and Spike,
holding hands together, and with Angel proclaiming 'Two of these
right here', to the Drogyn's mention of a champion. They have
a certain belief in their Destiny, in the Powers that Be and their
pattern of existence. But Joss is with Feigenbaum- there's a hole
in his world here, where everyone else has faith. For him, and
for this episode as a consequence, there's not one big, redemptive
statement - no one line that lets us off Fred's death. There's
just this whole in the world - an honest and painful one, where
for us there are no Old Ones, only an idea of slipping through
to New Zealand, out the other side and becoming just like the
predator on 'Serenity', the lion with a mighty roar, spinning
as an Object in Space.
Foreshadowing, and other games:
-'Cross my heart...' Fred ends the scene with her parents. Her
life isn't dull, and the 'Hope to die' which she omitted becomes
horribly painful.
-Knox' sarcophagus, placed in the teaser, bears no little relation
to the tomb of Acathla unearthed in 'Becoming, Part One'. That
discovery leads to the death of the one who first opens it, Angelus
as Angel. Fred's exploration also leads to her eventual death.
-The Gunn and Wesley scene is delightful. Gunn plays not only
on Wesley's insecurity, but on the audience's wariness about Fred's
relationships because of both the mind-wipe and the slightly arbitrary
feeling of the Knox, Wes triangle this Season. Joss always enjoys
playing with anything that could be perceived as a shortcoming
in his show's storytelling.
-'Let's not be hasty' is a Treebeard shout-out I think. Or maybe
I started getting paranoid after all the other Lord of the Rings
type mentions.
-The two Gunns is a fascinating scene which I still haven't fully
grasped. We're certainly meant to be thinking about Gunn's leap
of faith in being super-endowed with knowledge (and hence Gilbert
and Sullivan, for which, thanks Joss), and how he perceives himself
as an ally of the conduit (if not a 'friend'). But ow does this
mocking other Gunn want to make him feel? Like he's still really
just the street-fighter muscle that he never was in the first
place? Like he's living a lie, just a called up visage that Wolfram
and Hart put on their lackey, no more than a panther mask?
-And oh, the fun of calling back old episodes. Eve's couple of
lines of song come from Lindsey's marvellous performance back
in 'Dead End'. A re-affirmation of Eve's alliance with said ex-lawyer,
but also a parallel of how lost Lindsey was then to how lost she
feels now.
-Illyria. I suspect this has been said before, but Illyria is
a land where, after the initial storm, we're thinking all about
how other people perceive our appearance, and about how we might
actually just be others in disguise. We think that the brother
that the sister plays in disguise is dead, but in fact he's there
all along. And no-one speaks the Drogyn's unwavering truth- it's
all about second guessing what people really think. A mission
statement for the rest of the Season?
-Lorne gets 'Life of the Party' angry, and gives that episode
one more reason for existing [so that's one then]. It's moving
to see how attached this reflection character is to her, and suggests
how much Whedon llikes writing for her.
-St Petersburg. I wonder whether the two of them had an opportunity
to meet up with Anya.
-Fred of course, will not be seen as the damsel in distress by
Wesley or anyone else. In fact, she's misdiagnosed the role she's
been fit into by Knox, the suffering female martyr.
-Fred's death is, like all well-plotted deaths, more than one
person's fault. It could be said to be Knox'. But then, it wouldn't
have been so easy for him if Gunn hadn't signed the customs letter.
And what's the likelihood Gunn was signing it on behalf of Angel.
The blame thickens.
-There's some genuinely beautiful directing from Joss here- I
think his writing has hit its peak, but his direction is still
improving. Here, Wesley and Fred framed in the half-light near
Fred's window, then cuts to another exquisite piece of film making,
as we see Angel and Spike in the twisty fairytale wood of The
Little Princess and of Fred's fate.
It's a sad episode, but it's so rich and complex that I don't
think it's blubber material, for me at least. This isn't at all
the type of episode I was expecting for Joss' last outing, but
having received it, I'm glad he wrote it. It dwells on philosophy
almost as its main aim, with the characters just twisting around
it, and every joke and jab used as fodder for the discussion.
This is a prime exhibit for the first two quotes on the top of
the board, by Marsters and Whedon. You have to sit forward and
think about this episode, and there's philosophy and symbolism
just aching to get out.
We're left with the shell of Fred in Illyria. The 'Shells' review
follows later today.
Y'know, this wasn't a bad episode, but I'd rather watch some repeats
of that cool reality show they had on, with the woman and the
beach. You know the one I mean? Wasn't that great...;-)
Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
Though wise men at their end know dark is right,
Because their words had forked no lightning they
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Good men, the last wave by, crying how bright
Their frail deeds might have danced in a green bay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
Wild men who caught and sang the sun in flight,
And learn, too late, they grieved it on its way,
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Grave men, near death, who see with blinding sight
Blind eyes could blaze like meteors and be gay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
And you, my father, there on the sad height,
Curse, bless, me now with your fierce tears, I pray.
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
TCH
Replies:
[> You're a pleasure to read. :) -- Arethusa, 09:32:19
03/09/04 Tue
We've seen little indication of Lorne as a spiritual man before,
so this has the double function of underlining the desperation
of the situation, and once again bringing the question of the
usefulness of religion into the show.
Yes, and Lorne is shown to be the only one immobolized by despair,
after his prayers are not answered. It's also very ironic that
the two scientists become god and acolyte, when society depends
on the impartiality of scientists to make sense of those who try
to manipulate it. I'd love to see a subtextual jab at the current
administration's attempts to subvert scientific findings to suit
its own agenda, but that's too much to hope for. ;)
In this light, Knox' explanation of why he chose Fred to be
imbued with Illyria acts as an explanation of the almost religious
devotion with which Angel, Spike, Gunn and Lorne all go about
their duty. Its motive is correct, but are their some slightly
unsavoury aspects to the way in which it has shown itself?
Perhaps there was in Angel's debate on whether or not to let thousands
of people die so he won't lose or have to change his perception
of the object of his devotion. Fred's also proof to them that
it is not inevitable that they be corrupted; since she did not
change a great deal, perhaps they did or will not change also.
I like your interpretation of the hole as the emptiness left by
the lack of faith. But don't forget-there's another man on the
other side, thinking and wondering the same things. The hole leads
us back to ourselves, to the wonder that is mankind.
[> [> Thanks -- Tchaikovsky, 10:27:17 03/09/04
Tue
It's also very ironic that the two scientists become god and
acolyte, when society depends on the impartiality of scientists
to make sense of those who try to manipulate it.
Yes - I was going to mention this odd kind of conversion but forgot.
I was wondering whether Joss was going to do a little sub-theme
on the supposed neutrality of science after Conviction,
but he's spun it away and made it something totally different.
Which after so many years, really shouldn't surprise me!
But don't forget-there's another man on the other side, thinking
and wondering the same things. The hole leads us back to ourselves,
to the wonder that is mankind.
That's a lovely thought, and a really good interpretation of the
New Zealander, who was slightly confusing me.
TCH
[> [> [> Re: Thanks -- angel's nibblet, 17:24:14
03/11/04 Thu
That's a lovely thought, and a really good interpretation of
the New Zealander, who was slightly confusing me.
Be confused no longer, twas I!! Big giant hole in my backyard...
[> I thought of that Dylan Thomas poem too -- Masq,
09:55:50 03/09/04 Tue
I was trying to figure out how to incorporate it into my ep analysis,
even the first line, but eventually it sort of slipped my mind.
[> [> The nice aspect of these things -- Tchaikovsky,
10:34:28 03/09/04 Tue
...is I can incorporate whatever I want, and damn relevance, coherence
or logic. I guess that's why I'm so fond of writing them.
TCH- preparing more poetry.
[> [> [> What's cool is... -- Masq, 11:00:42
03/09/04 Tue
...is I can incorporate whatever I want, and damn relevance,
coherence or logic. I guess that's why I'm so fond of writing
them.
I enjoy your thoughts immensely!
When I do my episode analyses, I enjoy it when I can incorporate
this kind of cool stuff and it IS relevant, coherent or logical
to my philosophical analysis! But I enjoy that kind of "elegance".
[> Loss (Angel Odyssey 5.16)(sp 5.16, some unspoiled speculation)
-- Tchaikovsky, 11:21:43 03/09/04 Tue
Hello everyone.
Excuse me while I adjust back to the condition in which Angel
is the typeface of my life. Here's some verses to pass the time:
I met a traveller from an antique land
Who said:ó Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert. Near them on the sand,
Half sunk, a shatter'd visage lies, whose frown
And wrinkled lip and sneer of cold command
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamp'd on these lifeless things,
The hand that mock'd them and the heart that fed.
And on the pedestal these words appear:
"My name is Ozymandias, king of kings:
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains: round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away.
Shelley's 'Ozymandias', which still casts a Sphinx like shadow
over history. I always find it interesting that it's a sonnet
- a love poem from Shelley to time, and from Ozymandias to himself.
5.16- 'Shells'
Well, Gah. Will that do for a review. I ought to complain a little
bit first. From the somewhat surprising 'Previously' onwards,
it was obvious that Whedon and DeKnight had treated 'Shells' and
the previous episode as a double-bill. For example, the framing
device on the two episodes don't work perfectly when seen in isolation;
writing the 5.15 review I was puzzled as to how the family fit
into the momentum of the plot. But as one piece of work, with
Fred ending up driving off to be met by LA, Pylea and the Hyperion,
it fits together perfectly. What's more, 'Shells' is rather surprisingly
the stronger half of the piece, (marginally), and the acting in
this one at times hits the 'not suitable for network television'
level. Like when Wesley, the always-repressed, almost, almost
breaks down. If Alexis Denisof doesn't get an Emmy, it will be
entirely predictable but no less unjust for being routine.
J August Richards was also wonderful here, and Marsters nailed
the scene where he decided to stay in Los Angeles. The thinning
reason for his presence is now dispelled.
Here's a pattern I noticed before starting on the specifics of
the episodes:
Season One Finale
Hero discovers Destiny, and starts to re-concile themselves to
it.
2.1
The ghosts of the previous finale crop up once again
2.22
The Hero must deal with the death of their one true love - a death
they feel they could have averted
Season Three
In a Season about Duty and how it fits in with fulfilment in relationships,
the Hero evenutally vanquishes a somewhat ambiguous villain who
reflects many of their problems.
Season Four
Coping with the loss of several luminaries, the Hero adjusts to
a new set of challenges while becoming increasingly isolated from
closest friends.
4.21
The Hero defeats a villain who has a childlike innocence and curiosity
about how they work, but is nevertheless causing great danger,
in a big battle scene.
4.22 An extraordinary piece of television, which focusses not
on pure plot but on the desire of the Hero and the aspects of
psyche inherent in friends. The episode redefines the show's boundaries.
5.16 An episode based on the recovery from the death of a loved
one.
5.22 The Hero, world-weary and doing the right thing, dies to
save the World.
You tell me which series I'm talking about. [It's only when I
checked and noticed that 'The Body' was 5.16 that it started occuring
to me what remarkably similar trajectories the shows had taken,
though staggered by three years, and even while Angel is a fundamentally
different, darker show. So the question is, can and will Whedon
kill off Angel in the finale?
I'm not sure I could take that much heart-ache - this was easily
enough.
We start in the teaser with Wesley's nihilistic worldview, in
an explanation to Illyria. It's incredibly hard to tell how much
he believes everything he says at this point- and indeed how true
Whedon or DeKnight beleive the sentiment to be. It reminds me
a little of Macbeth's 'She would have died hereafter' speech,
mid-way through Act Five of his play - a beautiful speech, but
claiming that life is useless, ugly and pointless. Wesley acts
with the same kind of controlled anarchism in this episode that
he did towards the end of Season Three, and many of the same dilemmas,
albeit ones that most of the cast can't remember, are being set
up again in slightly different ways.
This episode, much as 'Forever' did for 'The Body' and Joyce,
shows how the characters accept that Fred cannot come back. I'm
still not convinced, since the demon is named Illyria, that this
is actually true, but this revelation must wait until the end
of the Season. For now, we see Angel and Spike claiming that 'Death
doesn't have to be the end', and then the episode gives them Dawn
and Buffy's heart-breaking wondrous epiphany that Joyce is really
gone, and that she won't be back. It is important that Illyria
has consumed Fred, and not only in a physical but in a rather
intangible, spiritual sense as well. And I think it's this total
consummation that gives the first hint that Illyria might not
be a Big Bad who is totally evil throughout. It suggests that
the line is blurrier, and the black is smudged with blue streaks.
Another theme that has run through from the previous episode is
about blame. It widens until it has enveloped every member of
the cast, (except perhaps the self-involved Harmony). If Lorne
had accurately read Knox' religious fervour, he would have been
expelled. If Angel had been more emotional and less utilitarian,
('Peace Out' buzzer ringing somewhere in the ether), then he could
have saved Fred at a bit of a price. And Gunn's fault deepens-
it was his selfish desire to consolidate the him he felt himself
becoming, (a false him, and one that does not hold the only
remedy to his Just The Muscle fixation), that led directly to
the sarcophagus entering Wolfram and Hart.
Now Gunn has the potential of going on the arc that Wesley did
at the end of Season Three- not really to blame for something
that so shatters someone's universe that they can never forgive
them for their slight culpability. The fact that there are now
only six episodes until a kind of resolution needs to be reached
probably means that the story will have to be a little simpler,
and have some kind of splice in it to speed up the ending. But
we'll see.
It looks to start with as if the whole gang is going to be fixated
on vengeance. Angel wants to bring Fred back, but also punish
the people involved in Fred's endangerment. And yet later, there's
a slight reverse: Angel, going into the style that characterised
his 'Deep Down' and 'Epiphany' speeches, explains to Illyria how
he would save Knox because of his (residual) humanity. And then
Wesley shoots Wes, the triumph of humanity is subverted by the
enormity of grief, and the plot thickens to a wholesome stew.
Lumps of potato in the casserole:
-Angel is brought to me by GAP, I was delighted to be told. After
'The Hole in the World', it seemed oddly appropriate.
-There's a conscious echo of the First Evil in the assertion that
Illyria is 'beyond flesh'. And yet, despite her powers, she isn't,
and eventually she turns out to be more connecting and human than
the Evil Paradigm ever was. That is another reason why this was
a wonderful episode - it flouted convention and expectation all
over the place.
-She was curious. I hate her a little for that. The blame
goes on the victim as Wesley clears all his emotions out into
the air. To Harmony. And what's beautifuller, instead of stepping
all over it, Harmony manages her first wise, comforting words
outside 'Harm's Way'. Growth from an unexpected source in the
face of tragedy.
-Wesley's very calm explanation to Gunn of why he can't forgive
him mirrors Angel's to Wesley himself in 'Forgiving'. We wonder
whether Angel is so big that he might spare Wesley his wrath,
as has been building all episode. And he calmly explains how there
is no trace of Angelus in his actions, and then attempts to smother
him. Here we get the same, although the blind rage has just enough
of an eye open to 'avoid the major organs'. Whether that was luck
rather than judgement remains a question.
--Harmony's vapidity becomes a plot point due to her intimate
knowledge of mobile phones. That was unfair on mobile phone owners,
but as the last of a renegade dying breed, I felt I needed to
say it. I'm neither big nor clever, and I realise this.
-Spike's 'It's What I want' speech is just lovely. He's just starting
to weaken on his love for Angel, although he still won't even
admit that he will ever like him. One of ME's writers claimed
that Angel-Spike was the love story of the Season. I start to
see their point.
-The almost final parallel is where we see Illyria, with her Ozymandias
Kingdom just rubble, and compare it to the deserted castle with
the biting wind of Wesley's life, laid waste by Knox' misplaced
belief. Yet another marvellous moment.
-Rosebud! As Wesley packs Fred's things away, he finds Feigenbaum,
but of course has no idea that it is what Fred was talking about.
So the parallel plays out.
-I was a bit surprised by the Buffyesque song motage, but I think
it pulled it off because it was a good enough song, a strong enough
resolution, had words about Home, and wasn't about the bleak loneliness
of Angel's cello, but a loss of interaction with a real friend.
YMMV.
And acronyming of mileages, we end with Fred the open road ahead
of her. Except that it isn't. It was scary then, but it was full
of the possibilities life can bring. In the real time-line, those
possibilities have been smudged out. I wonder whether Illyria
might become Fred totally by the end of the Season. For she now
has the same learning curve to climb as Fred, under the tutelage
of the same Wesley. That would be a beautiful ode to consolation,
the upside of the end of Animal Farm.
But those issues are for April, as I catch up with you during
a Season for the first time ever, (for which thanks aliera).
For now, I grieve Fred, and this show. If either of them are really
gone...
If you see her, say hello, she might be in Tangier
She left here last early spring, is livin' there, I hear
Say for me that I'm all right though things get kind of slow
She might think that I've forgotten her, don't tell her it isn't
so.
We had a falling-out, like lovers often will
And to think of how she left that night, it still brings me a
chill
And though our separation, it pierced me to the heart
She still lives inside of me, we've never been apart.
If you get close to her, kiss her once for me
I always have respected her for busting out and gettin' free
Oh, whatever makes her happy, I won't stand in the way
Though the bitter taste still lingers on from the night I tried
to make her stay.
I see a lot of people as I make the rounds
And I hear her name here and there as I go from town to town
And I've never gotten used to it, I've just learned to turn it
off
Either I'm too sensitive or else I'm gettin' soft.
Sundown, yellow moon, I replay the past
I know every scene by heart, they all went by so fast
If she's passin' back this way, I'm not that hard to find
Tell her she can look me up if she's got the time.
TCH
[> [> Fred and Cordelia -- Joyce, 12:42:32 03/09/04
Tue
I find it interesting that more has been made of Fred's death
than Cordelia's. Has this to do with the fact that Fred is still
a regular character and Cordelia wasn't?
In fact, the other characters (save for Spike who never really
knew Cordelia) seemed to have reacted more strongly from Fred's
death than they did over Cordelia's. We never really saw how Lorne,
Gunn, Fred, Harmony and Wes reacted to Cordelia's death.
[> [> [> Mostly agreeing with your conjectures
-- Tchaikovsky, 14:42:57 03/09/04 Tue
Has this to do with the fact that Fred is still a regular character
and Cordelia wasn't?
I think it basically has. Cordelia could only come back for one
episode, so her (or even a demon physically inside her) could
only play out for that hour. Afterwards it would all be echoes.
And while the Fred/Illyria plot-line is clearly supposed to sweep
us in towards the end of the Season, Cordelia's visit in the 100th
episode worked best as a standalone.
We never really saw how Lorne, Gunn, Fred, Harmony and Wes
reacted to Cordelia's death.
No, but I think that would have been a tricky thing to fit in,
for similar reasons. Either one would have to have burdened the
beginning of an episode with it, which may have come off as unnatural
and clumsy, or a full second episode would have had to be devoted
to it, which would have had to be without Cordelia. We did see
a little of Wesley, Harmony and Gunn's joy at her return, which
was a good consolation. There's also the question of over-egging
the grief factor of the show. If you're going to do an episode
wholly devoted to grief (Shells), it would be unbalancing
to put another one in three before it.
All these are rather dry reasons. In the 'real life' of the Angelverse,
it must be remembered that in a sense grief over Cordelia must
have already been handled by the characters. Since they've been
living for over six months as if she was dead, it must become
hard not to grieve as if she actually is. Another example of the
pain inflicted by Joss Whedon ;-)
TCH
[> [> [> [> Re: Mostly agreeing with your conjectures
-- Jane, 18:51:51 03/09/04 Tue
The fact that Cordelia was to all extent dead in her friends'
viewpoint would make the grieving at her final death somewhat
less, I think. IRL, for example, my sister's first husband died
of leukemia at age 31. He was ill for a year, and Sandy nursed
him throughout that year. When he died, she told me that she had
basically spent the year grieving, and when he died, she felt
almost a sense of release. I suspect that Cordy's friends felt
something similar; sadness and pain mingled with relief that her
suffering was done.
[> [> [> [> [> Wish -- Joyce, 12:58:02
03/10/04 Wed
I guess I felt a little cheated by the lack of reaction to Cordelia's
death from the team - in compare to Fred, who wasn't with the
show from the beginning.
[> [> Some thoughts (spoilers for "Smile Time,"
"Hole in the World," and "Shells", unspoiled
spec) -- Rob, 13:07:41 03/09/04 Tue
I found it very interesting that Fred, for all intents and purposes,
was turned into a literal puppet the very episode after
Angel was. And what is more, she is blue, and visually resembles
the Blue Fairy from Angel's dreams in Sole Porpoise (*snerk*)
and by extension, of course, from Pinocchio. What I am
wondering is whether this is meant to signify that (a) Fred will
be her own Blue Fairy, rescuing herself from Illyria, turning
herself back into a "real girl"; (b) Fred's latent memories
and humanity still inexplicably alive in Illyria will eventually
turn Illyria herself into a more human creature, a "real
girl"; or (c) that Illyria will somehow contribute to Angel
or Spike's shanshu, if this is to happen. The last option, (d),
is of course that this signifies nothing, and the coloring is
merely coincidental. I find mulling over the first three options
a great deal more fun though. ;o)
Rob
[> [> [> Well, here's my guesses (sp 5.16) --
Tchaikovsky, 14:52:47 03/09/04 Tue
Which are almost certainly wrong, given my lack of skill in speculation:
(a) Fred will be her own Blue Fairy, rescuing herself from
Illyria, turning herself back into a "real girl";
That seems kinda illogical. I'm dreadful at plot points, but that
would involve some kind of catalyst from outside, in order to
replace her soul (or something). I suppose they could dial up
lurky (if he has a 'phone), and try their best. But an inelegant
solution to the symbolism, methinks.
(b) Fred's latent memories and humanity still inexplicably
alive in Illyria will eventually turn Illyria herself into a more
human creature, a "real girl";
This is what I'm hoping for. Kind of a Trill identification game-
how much is Fred, how much is Illyria? Since Illyria can turn
on Fred's memories, she is in some sense a shadow of the person
Fred was. And she clearly has the humanity to attempt to learn
from Wesley. And it would be a lovely story of growth. And she
could be funny, like Anya.
(c) that Illyria will somehow contribute to Angel or Spike's
shanshu.
Oooh, two presences in Fred/Illyria offers double valency, and
they are both able to Shanshu through some obscure flabotnumic
loophole! Seriously, this would most clearly play out the symbolism
of The Fish Episode (;-)) particularly if Illyria was to reward
Spike for his interest in Fred earlier in the Season, somewhat
without understanding the fuller consequences.
The last option, (d), is of course that this signifies nothing,
and the coloring is merely coincidental
Accidental symbolism in the Whedonverse? What have you been taking?
We have the combined power to find a metaphor for it even if one
doesn't exist!
Have to say it's great fun being up to date, so I can speculate
on the same amount of information as everyone else. I feel all
empowered :-)
TCH
[> [> [> [> Re: Well, here's my guesses (sp 5.16)
-- Rob, 15:56:17 03/09/04 Tue
(a) Fred will be her own Blue Fairy, rescuing herself from
Illyria, turning herself back into a "real girl";
That seems kinda illogical. I'm dreadful at plot points, but that
would involve some kind of catalyst from outside, in order to
replace her soul (or something). I suppose they could dial up
lurky (if he has a 'phone), and try their best. But an inelegant
solution to the symbolism, methinks.
I was thinking of something simpler...that Fred saying that maybe
her superpower is not letting go means that she might be able
to conquer Illyria from within, in a defy-the-odds and damn-the-prophecies
way, like the Buffster herself. It would have to be written incredibly
well on an emotional level though, to deflect from the fact that
it worked less on a logic level. The danger is that would work
for some viewers, maybe not so much for others, much like the
end of The Gift and Summers blood (I personally loved that
ending and thought the (for lack of a better term) lack-of-logic
in Buffy's blood being a suitable substitute for Dawn's was deliberate
and made all the sense in the world from an emotional level (the
superior level! ;-) ), whereas others I know were held up by the
fact that they couldn't have the same blood.).
Of course, that power may not have implied that she is coming
back so much as pointed to the way that vestiges of Fred are manifesting
themselves in Illyria now.
This is what I'm hoping for. Kind of a Trill identification
game- how much is Fred, how much is Illyria? Since Illyria can
turn on Fred's memories, she is in some sense a shadow of the
person Fred was. And she clearly has the humanity to attempt to
learn from Wesley. And it would be a lovely story of growth. And
she could be funny, like Anya.
Me, too. Or at least I hope we have a satisfying amount of time
spent with Illyria before Fred comes back, if she does. I find
Illyria fascinating on multiple levels. For starters, we have
all of the issues OnM discusses in his "Shells" thread
farther down on the page. What I perhaps found most interesting
about her was she wasn't cut-and-dried evil. In fact, almost all
of her actions in this episode can be explained as self-defense
or self-preservation mechanisms. All of her attacks on the gang
were after they had threatened her. In fact, at some points she
avoided an all-out attack, such as when she manipulated time so
she could leave the science lab. If you examine the entire story
from her perspective, assuming she's telling the truth, she didn't
devise of the plan to be brought back. Others did that. Unlike
Jasmine, she didn't come with the specific purpose of digging
her way into Fred and taking over her body. That is just what
happened. She woke up in this "shell" and here she was
in this world she doesn't understand. Even her quest to get back
to her temple can be seen as self-preservation, to restore the
world to the way it used to be, rather than an outright malicious
act. Like Jasmine, she is morally ambiguous to the point that
you could question whether she really is evil at all. Which makes
her a wonderful subversion of what we expect when a demonic force
takes over someone's body.
Oooh, two presences in Fred/Illyria offers double valency,
and they are both able to Shanshu through some obscure flabotnumic
loophole!
Sounds like a party to me! ;-)
Accidental symbolism in the Whedonverse? What have you been
taking? We have the combined power to find a metaphor for it even
if one doesn't exist!
You're completely right...What was I thinking?
Have to say it's great fun being up to date, so I can speculate
on the same amount of information as everyone else. I feel all
empowered :-)
Heh, I know exactly what you mean. It was such a rush once I finished
all the tapes Masq sent me and was fully up-to-date with last
season's episodes! I had heard vague rumblings about what was
going on in the series before I started watching, but had no context
for them. "Who's Connor?" I would think. One of life's
little ironies is that, now that I'm a full-blown Angel
addict, I know the answer to this question, even though most of
the characters on the series don't. ;-)
Rob
[> [> [> [> [> It would be typical of ME...
-- KdS, 00:02:04 03/10/04 Wed
To satisfy the pro-Shanshu element, without upsetting the Existentialist
element, by having the Shanshu come from the poster-girl for moral
ambiguity among the demonic.
[> [> [> [> [> This made me think back to something
(sp 5.16) -- Lunasea, 17:19:20 03/11/04 Thu
Even her quest to get back to her temple can be seen as self-preservation,
to restore the world to the way it used to be, rather than an
outright malicious act.
Champions live in the world as though it were what it should be
to show it what it can be. (Deep Down and Home)
Perspective was one of the important themes running through these
episodes and the whole season so far. I'm thinking that Illyria
is going to be used to bridge Angel's statement to Connor at the
end of "Deep Down" with Lilah's alteration of it to
Angel in "Home."
How would the color blue play in here?
My immediate thought goes back to when I was studying the Marseilles
Tarot Deck. In this deck red is the blood of the physical body
and blue is spirit. The High Priestess is wearing a blue gown
covered by a red cape. She reminds us that through women alone
the spirit is made flesh. It is she who catches the divine spark
in her womb, protects and nourishes it and ultimately brings it
forth into reality. She is the vessel of transformation.
The blue also ties to water, which is a feminine archetypal form
for a reason. There is a reason the Virgin Mary (mare, mer, mere)
is shown wearing blue, which ties to what TCH said earlier.
I can say more, if anyone wants.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Please, Lunasea, may I
have more? -- Jane, 17:36:53 03/11/04 Thu
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Me too! -- Rob,
19:35:37 03/11/04 Thu
[> [> [> [> [> [> Why Illyria is Blue (not
really spoilery) -- Lunasea, 19:54:46 03/11/04 Thu
Letís see if I can get my brain to start working again.
My strong suit is symbolism, dream interpretation, understanding
archetypal forms, so Iíll play to my strengths. Rather
than discuss the episodes, Iím going to talk about the
symbols Joss has chosen for Illyria. Or maybe he didnít
choose them. Maybe they came to him from somewhere deeper than
the conscious mind. Either way, there are some important symbols
already associated with this character. Hey, complete sentences.
Thatís a good start.
The first obvious one is her name. I am by no means an expert
on Shakespeare and there are plenty of people here that are more
familiar with this topic than I am. One thing I am an expert at
is feeling lost. Viola was lost at sea. She washed ashore at Illyria.
Illyria is the land mass that takes her out of the sea.
The sea is a very powerful archetypal image. It can mean many
things. Those things tend to illustrate the unconscious or spirit
in some way. It can be calm or a tempest. It can be life giving
or life threatening. To get to the Deeper Well, Angel had to go
back to England. He had to cross the ocean. He does this newly
resouled on a boat at Ellis Island. He does this as CEO of Wolfram
and Hart in his fast jet, bypassing the dangers of the ocean.
At the end of season 3, he is sunk to the bottom of the ocean
where he gain an Escher-like perspective. Water has been an important
symbol in the Buffyverse, from the baptism of Buffy to the trip
Connor takes to the beach to the submarine where Angel vamps Lawson.
Illyria isnít a physical being. She is an essence. She
needs a physical being in order to manifest. Spirit made flesh.
At sea, Viola is lost. She needs land, she needs Illyria. You
cannot live lost at sea. We have to come to the consciousness
of land in order to do more than just fight for survival.
The spirit that is Illyria is represented by the gorgeous blue
hair and eyes that differentiate Illyria from Fred. Blue is traditionally
a color associate with the spirit. The blue of heaven. The blue
of Maryís garments, tied to both the spirituality of heaven
and the fertility of the water.
Illyria takes a step further into the world of flesh. While in
the lab, after she meets Knox, she uses the power of the sarcophagus
to give her something more tangible than the clothes/shell Fred
was wearing. This further makes the spirit that she is flesh.
Joss has taken the mythology of woman transforming spirit into
flesh, through birth, another step when it is themselves they
give birth to. First Jasmine and now Illyria. Woman is not only
the vessel of transformation, but that transformation. This was
weakened with Jasmine hijacking Cordeliaís body and existing
outside of her as her child. Illyria is Fred now. The only
parts of Fred that exist exist as Illyria.
Blue is a calming color. Having the blues can be contrasted with
seeing red. When Illyria loses her world, she does not react with
fire. She reacts with ice. Ice blue eyes and ice blue hair show
her nature. She is still water and runs very deep. She has been
taken out of the Deeper Well, out of the unconscious and washed
up ashore in LA, into flesh. Her nature as spirit is still there.
It just has flesh to allow it to manifest itself.
That is why Illyriaís hair and eyes are blue.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> And also, note the
blue skin colour of gods in Hindu iconography -- KdS, 23:40:49
03/11/04 Thu
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Why Illyria is
Blue (not really spoilery) -- Ann, 06:36:53 03/12/04 Fri
"Illyria isnít a physical being. She is an essence.
She needs a physical being in order to manifest. Spirit made flesh."
Yet when humans (physical beings that we are) are deprived of
life giving oxygen, we turn blue.
"The blue of Maryís garments, tied to both the spirituality
of heaven and the fertility of the water." ties nicely with
the Pieta imagery. From The Art of Fresco: "The blues, purples,
and several greens are rarer. The Egyptian blue and green frits
used during the classical period have been lost. Genuine ultramarine
is made from the lapis lazuli, a precious stone found in Siberia
and other eastern places. Ultramarine is a chemical compound in
lapis lazuli. During the early Renaissance, the utmost pain was
used in its preparation and it was so precious that it was generally
confined to the virgins robe". Also from Causes of Color:
"Although water appears clear in small quanities (like a
glass of water), the blue color becomes visible the more water
we look through. Thus, deep lakes and seas are bluer than a shallow
river."
So I am wondering if the stark blueness of Illyria is because
we may be looking through time (perhaps, this will have to tie
in some way) at an image of an oo, something very rare. There
is a greater presence we are viewing.
Great post.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Why Illyria is
Blue (not really spoilery) -- LittleBit, 12:01:18 03/12/04
Fri
"Water has been an important symbol in the Buffyverse..."
Scattered thoughts on the use of actual water in the Buffyverse:
Used doubly in "Surprise" with both Buffy and Angel
going into the water off the docks before encountering The Judge;
and one the very few actual uses of rain which was the catalyst
for them being together at the end of the episode, and ultimately
the release of Angelus.
The well-known unprecedented snow in "Amends" which
puts Angel on his journey as Champion.
Buffy and Faith are at the docks when Faith saves Buffy from Mr.
Trick, and makes her fateful decision to join the Mayor.
The gang is (for the one and only time) hanging out at the beach
when Dracula arrives causing a sudden storm, one that Willow appears
to have caused with her lighting of the fire.
In "The Replacement" ScruffyXander is standing in the
rain outside Giles' apartment as SuaveXander convinces most of
the scoobies that there is an evil double, and is still drenched
when he comes to Willow who sees that it is him; the dual recognition
of both parts of Xander as being him.
It's raining again in "Hell's Bells" when Xander examines
his choices and future, making the decision not to marry Anya.
In AtS, there are far more episodes that have scenes set at the
docks, perhaps because the geography of L.A. is somewhat less
mutable than that of Sunnydale. [grin]
But there are at least some instances of rain/ocean that tend
to stand out for me:
In "5x5" it is raining when Faith finally breaks down
with her self-loathing.
It is raining in Honduras when Darla is finally convinced she
cannot get rid of her baby and decides it's time to come see Angel.
In "Lullaby" it is pouring when Connor is 'born' via
Darla's sacrifice.
In "Hero" they are on a freighter when Doyle sacrifices
himself to save the others.
They are on a houseboat when Angel saves Fred from being 'de-brained'
and realizes that even though he has someone dependent upon him,
money isn't more important than the mission.
In "Tomorrow" Connor sends Angel to the bottom of the
ocean.
(And in one facetitious use of rain...the song that Angelus sang
in "Salvage" to convince Lorne he was really Angel was
"Raindrops Keep Falling on My Head...")
Not that there's anything particularly symbolic about these scenes
(at least not that I'm equipped to expand upon), except that they
do seem (especially the incidences of precipitation) to be connected
to rather pivotal moments in the development of various characters.
[> Joss's Passion ? -- Laney, 19:25:53 03/09/04 Tue
So do you think this is Joss's response to Mel Gibson's Passion?
A Hole in the World. 'Cause that'd be a fitting reply from an
avowed existential athiest like him.
I've never seen the movie, but I gather both feature prolonged
agonising death caused by betrayal. Then rebirth ... Hang on a
minute. Don't tell me She is going to 'ascent' at the end of the
story?
On second thought, I think I belong in that 'Celebrity Death Match'
thread over down there ;)
[> [> Small correction -- KdS, 00:00:47 03/10/04
Wed
Gibson's "Passion" ends with the Entombment. Which is
one of the main reasons why many non-Christian reviewers doubt
its effectiveness as an evangelical tool, as opposed to a meditation
on the Stations of the Cross for the devout.
[> [> [> Correction to Small correction -- Corwin
of Amber, 09:56:32 03/10/04 Wed
Actually, it ended with the Resurrection - still within the tomb.
[> [> [> [> Jesus gets resurrected? -- Tchaikovsky,
14:46:42 03/10/04 Wed
That's the most annoyed I've been about finding out an ending
since Titanic...;-)
TCH
[> [> [> [> [> Does that mean... -- LittleBit,
18:11:34 03/10/04 Wed
You didn't know Legolas died in "Titanic"?
[> [> [> [> [> [> Darn it, Bit! -- Rob,
08:13:09 03/11/04 Thu
This is worse than the time that you spoiled me about Legolas
dying at the end of "Shakespeare in Love"!
Rob
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> What! He... --
fresne, 16:23:49 03/12/04 Fri
died at the end of Shakepeare in Love! Sob, noooooo. Those bastards,
they've killed Legolas. But I ordered a comedy. I was supposed
to get twins and a wedding. Perhaps an amusing little bit with
the king of the pirates.
Next thing you'll tell me Kit Marlow was killed in the library
with a lead pipe by Professor Plum.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> No....
-- LittleBit, 17:46:29 03/12/04 Fri
That wasn't Kit Marlowe. At the last moment, he was replaced by
Legolas, much to the chagrin of the good Professor.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Jesus gets resurrected?
-- Rob, 08:16:17 03/11/04 Thu
What a phony, tacked-on, Hollywood ending! Mel Gibson, you sell-out!
;-)
Rob
[> [> [> [> [> [> He had to save something
for the sequel -- Pony, 11:12:45 03/11/04 Thu
The original ending was more abstract with Jesus framing Michael
Douglas for his murder to the strains of Madame Butterfly, but
it tested poorly with audiences.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Jesus gets resurrected?
-- Laney, 12:25:55 03/11/04 Thu
I wonder who's got the Book's right, and who'll ghostwrite the
sequel ;)
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> You know what...
-- Rob, 12:34:49 03/11/04 Thu
I think it would make an excellent musical! ;)
Rob
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Always look
on the bright side of life (attempts to whistle) -- Lunasea,
17:30:32 03/11/04 Thu
[> [> [> [> [> hey! *hey!* watch it w/those
spoilers in the subject lines!! -- anom, 23:35:25 03/11/04
Thu
[> [> Interesting theory -- Tchaikovsky, 02:42:32
03/10/04 Wed
The Gibson film isn't out for another couple of weeks in Britain,
and I'm not entirely sure I'll see it then. But this episode certainly
could be considered some kind of parallel. I'll admit I saw more
of the nativity in it than the crucifixion, but once you start
thinking:
-Gunn's betrayal for thirty pieces of 'cerebral silver'
-Fred's pained, 'You will betray me'
-The pain of immobility applied by a religious sect
It sort of almost fits...
TCH
[> [> [> Re: Interesting theory -- Laney, 04:45:25
03/10/04 Wed
Adding to that, the sarcophagus is cross-like, and the way Fred
dies in Wesley's arms is kind of similar to Michelangelo's Pieta
;) (Realising I'm in over my head here.)
[> [> [> [> Yes!! -- Ann, 06:59:12 03/10/04
Wed
Thought that too! But genders reversed. Links perhaps somehow
to http://www.voy.com/14567/1/6097.html
Considering that the death and resurrection is the highest day
in Christianity, we might be heading for something like this.
[> [> [> [> [> Heh, the same thing occured to
me -- Arethusa, 08:06:47 03/10/04 Wed
when I read this sub-thread. Wes is Mary, keeping Jesus company
during his trials but unable to change the outcome. Which would
make Illyria's arrival her Second Coming, although she is uable
to rise up her dead followers from the grave.
This of course leads to Yeats' The Second Coming, to the
gyre that is turning but not widening. Illyria, first seemingly
the rough beast, is now revealed to be Ozymandias, but she is
not the only one prophesied to die and live again. Now that Angel
knows you can't be saved with a lie, will he stop lying and become
a real boy? (If there is truly no sixth season.)
[> [> [> [> [> [> Spoilers for "Shells"
above -- Arethusa, 08:08:36 03/10/04 Wed
[> [> [> [> [> [> Is this the best show ever
or what. Not a question, but a statement. -- Laney, 10:06:30
03/10/04 Wed
Seeing we're on a biblical roll now, how about the scene in 'Hole'
where fred is in bed, surrounded by her 'boys', one of whom betrays
her. I love how the scene is framed, much like a painting.
Also, a little moment of Angel and Spike, with Angel not knowing
Fred's with Wes now, not sure why it's there, though.
This reminds me of another Joss's episode 'Waiting in the Wing',
in which a ballerina (the wonderful Summer Glau, who'd go on to
appear in Firefly) is, well, waiting in the wing. The frame, especially
on DVD, is an allusion of paintings. Joss'd go on many times about
how beautiful the framing in the episode is.
Incidentally, this is also the episode where we see Dark (almost)
Murderous Wes, after being on the verge of confessing to Fred
his feeling, then having to watch Fred and Gun making googly eyes:
Gunn to Wes, flippantly: Man with a plan.
Wes shot him an EVIL glance.
Cordelia: Hope you're in a killing mood.
Wes: I should do alright.
Come to think of it, 'Waiting' is the best of the ATS stand-alones.
We get to see Wes's obsessive nature interplays with his need
to see the big picture and do the right thing. His (not yet absolute)
dejection most certainly affects the decisions he will make later
on. Someone on this board mentioned that the long downward spiral
arc of epic proportion that eventually concludes at the end of
season 4, starts right here. It seems Wes wouldn't get any decent
sleep from then on, for when we see him the next morning, he's
already at his office working on Conner's prophesy.
If there's another show that comes close to this, I'll eat the
dogs.
As much as I am saddened by the series' end, I wish we are on
a last stretch home. I panick when news of latest (ep20) spoiler/foiler
hit. Talk about total let-down. Here's hoping ATS ends with a
metaphorical bang. No crappy telemovie. Just FIN.
[> Re: Ave Maria, gratia plena (Angel Odyssey 5.15)(sp 5.15
and Citizen Kane) -- Aliera, 11:46:53 03/10/04 Wed
Ben feels you should have the commercials; get a real sense of
what we have to endure here...
[> [> LOL -- Tchaikovsky, 14:44:37 03/10/04 Wed
It's a really low tarriff to pay- especially for these two. And
it does oddly make me feel more American- the only problem being
that I'm a very unresponsive American: as much as that Albany
pizza might look nice, I just can't be bothered to pay $8 and
then have it shipped across the Atlantic...;-)
TCH
[> [> [> Re: LOL -- Rob, 15:00:04 03/10/04
Wed
as much as that Albany pizza might look nice, I just can't
be bothered to pay $8 and then have it shipped across the Atlantic...;-)
Albany pizza?!? Albany?!?
If you're going to be even considering going through the trouble
of having pizza shipped across the Atlantic, it had better be
New York City pizza. Anything else just isn't worth it. ;o)
Rob
[> [> [> [> Re: Dunno Rob... -- Aliera, 16:19:22
03/10/04 Wed
...I'm still waiting for you guys to hike up here and taste test
that live. Then we'll talk. ;-)
(btw, guess what we're eating tonight?)
[> [> [> [> [> Heh! -- Rob, 20:00:47
03/10/04 Wed
Well, I actually went to school at SUNY Albany for 3 months and
tasted a variety of different pizza from different places. I never
found one as good as the best places in the city, but I wouldn't
mind being proven wrong, because, ya know, more good food. ;-)
Rob
[> [> [> [> [> Mystic Pizza!!!!! -- Lunasea,
17:41:18 03/11/04 Thu
And I'm moving back to New England, so I can get it on my way
up and when I have to endure the long drive to visit relatives.
[> [> And many happy returns -- Tchaikovsky, 07:55:22
03/11/04 Thu
I hope you have a wonderful birthday.
TCH
[> [> [> Re: And many happy returns -- Aliera,
13:42:54 03/11/04 Thu
*grin* good grief. It's impossible to go grey quietly around you
guys.
But thank you.
And yes, I alliterate in RL too.
Joss Whedon on NPR's "Talk of the Nation"
today -- curious, 13:13:08 03/09/04 Tue
FYI, Joss Whedon was just on "Talk of the Nation" on
NPR discussing "cult TV". Not a lot of Joss but kind
of fun to hear his baby in the background. The audio archive should
be available here later today:
http://www.npr.org/features/feature.php?wfId=1753399
Replies:
[> Joss Whedon + Bruce Campbell = Awesome! -- Majin
Gojira, 17:09:58 03/09/04 Tue
[> [> Listened to it last night.. -- Jane, 18:27:22
03/10/04 Wed
it was good to hear Joss so up about the Firefly movie. Thanks
for the link.
The Angel/Jasmine Kiss -- Invisible Green,
18:08:21 03/10/04 Wed
...I still don't get it. I had completely forgotten about it until
I watched the TNT rerun last night. What was it supposed to mean/represent?
Replies:
[> Re: The Angel/Jasmine Kiss -- ChosenOne,
03:27:53 03/11/04 Thu
One last thrill before the kill?
Honestly, though, that kiss icked me out, especially considering
that Angel was technically Jasmine's grandfather. So, incest,
which when you think about it, isn't all that unusual on AtS.
Cordy was supposed to be like a mother to Connor and look how
he displayed his love for her.
"Darla"/"Why We Fight"/"School
Hard" continuity question -- Nino, 19:26:52 03/10/04
Wed
I rewatched "Fool for Love" and "Darla" back
to back tonight, and my question is...If Spike and Dru were in
Romania when Angel was re-ensouled, and Darla and Angel were not
reunited until 1900 in China during the Boxer Rebellion, how are
we to believe that Darla did not explain Angel's absence to spike
and Dru for that long? In "Why We Fight" Spike had no
clue that Angel had a soul (how he couldn't smell it on him is
beyond me) and in "FFL"/"Darla" Dru of all
people should be able to sense Angel's soul.
I know there has been some talk of continuity before (Spike calling
Angel his sire) but rewatching "Darla" has opened up
a lot of questions for me, like how did Darla end up back in America
with the Master when Dru introduced Angel to Spike in "Destiny?"
Wasn't she just with them on the night Spike was sired in London?
Moreover, if she chose to leave the Master in "Darla"
while in London, what makes her go back and forth...
I know I'm being a giant loser, but with "Buffy" off
the air, and "Angel" holding on for dear life, my focus
on continuity is all that i have :)
Any takers on some of these (or the many other) questions. I saw
a timeline somewhere once...does that site explain any of these
questions?
Replies:
[> Easiest answers that come to mind -- Charles
Phipps, 21:01:34 03/10/04 Wed
1. How are we to believe that Darla did not explain Angel's absence
to spike and Dru for that long?
Darla and Angelus were not coninually united throughout their
200 years 'together'. Angelus, Spike, and Drucilla probably spent
many years apart from one another. They wandered as a rule and
never settled down in any one place for very long.
2. In "Why We Fight" Spike had no clue that Angel had
a soul (how he couldn't smell it on him is beyond me) and in "FFL"/"Darla"
Dru of all people should be able to sense Angel's soul.
Well it was deep underwater, Spike had just emerged from a packing
crate, and was suffering a major hangover I got the impression
of. By "School Hard" though Spike WASN'T fooled by Angel
and I think he probably knew as of "Why We Fight" because
his behavior was so wildly out of character.
Dru also knew about the wicked bad soul and never made a secret
of it, she just probably wouldn't feel the need to tell Spike.
[Like how did Darla end up back in America with the Master when
Dru introduced Angel to Spike in "Destiny?"]
The Master and Darla's relationship remains very parental. While
she leaves him to go dance the night away with Angel, she never
really 'leaves' the Master and no doubt routinely checks up on
him.
Plus Angelus quickly changes his tune on the nature of evil as
Spike meeting the Master fortells
[> [> My theory -- curious, 06:01:28 03/11/04
Thu
...is that Spike knew Angel had a soul but didn't really understand
how it made a difference. He clearly had no idea what he was letting
himself in for when he sought his own soul. He wasn't repulsed
by the idea of soul the way Darla was.
I just don't think Spike cared that Angel had a soul because he
didn't understand the significance in the 1940's. Sometime between
"Why We Fight" and "School Hard", he must
have figured out that it meant that Angel had switched to the
"good" team. This makes the most sense to me because
of the fact that Angel thought he could try to fool Spike into
thinking he was still "bad" in "School Hard".
I also think that Angel hadn't really decided to be proactively
"good" until he met Whistler and then Buffy. He was
fairly neutral and could have gone either way until that point
- at least as far as Spike was concerned.
And that's my theory....;-)
Wednesday (that is today!) campaign from Saving
Angel -- abt, 08:38:31 03/10/04 Wed
Wednesday (that is today) campaign from Saving
Angel.
Call in on Wednesdays! Let your local WB affiliate know - politely
please - that you aren't watching during the five weeks that ANGEL
is on hiatus by calling in during the hour that the show would
normally air. Click
here to find the number of your local WB affiliate. In addition
to calling (or if your affiliate doesn't have an option for you
to leave a message), if you spend the ANGEL hour online, take
the time to send feedback via your WB affiliates web page using
the "contact us" link and let them know why your time
is now spent on the net.
Replies:
[> Yep, this is worth a moment -- Masq, 13:14:48
03/10/04 Wed
[> I am so dedicated... -- Rob, 14:23:22 03/10/04
Wed
...that even though I have class tonight, I am making a point
of stepping outside at some point between 9 and 10 to call my
WB network. And, hey, since I'm not home at the time I really
will be upholding my "ban". ;o)
Rob
[> [> Shouldn't that read "committed"? ;-D
-- Lunasea, 14:39:25 03/10/04 Wed
[> [> [> LOL! And yeah, if anyone's wondering, I left
a message on WB11's voicemail at 9:05. ;-) -- Rob, 21:20:31
03/10/04 Wed
[> Email sent . Off to watch Angel on Space now. --
Jane, 21:06:37 03/10/04 Wed
[> Re: The quiz on WB11 -- Ames, 16:09:25 03/11/04
Thu
While leaving an email I noticed this Angel 100-episode quiz posted
on WB11 NYC's site. Probably old news, but here's the link:
http://wb11.trb.com/entertainment/wbnetwork/stv-angel-100trivia-part1.triviaquiz
Theorie's about Wolf, Ram, and Hart rise to power?
(speculation) -- zombie, 17:48:42 03/10/04 Wed
From what Illyria said they were weak in her time. Well they have
had a long time to ally themselves with demons, vamps, and various
magical beings. They have probably built their power slowly and
grew from one dimension to another as they got stronger. They
entice humans because their souls could give them power and increasing
knowledge to show their allies how benefitical it would be to
join them. It is probably similar to how the Watcher's Council
is changing to a new level to fight evil.
Replies:
[> My own speculation -- Charles
Phipps, 18:50:17 03/10/04 Wed
Illyria is a type of demon that is very 'traditional'. She rules
over her enemies directly and directs them with her godlike powers.
She confronts her foes personally and her priests are treated
as little more than disposable minions. She is much like Glory
in this respect and from our views of Jasmine, the same way. It
should be noted that both Jasmine and Glory are also very dead
in the modern world and only after a short time here.
Wolf, Ram, and Hart though are as Wesley pointed out about humanity
in "Shells" are decievers. They refuse to confront Angel
directly, they use expendable minions with large amounts of room
to expand on their own, and depend on a pyramid structure that
is willing to compromise with good for the greater evil. They
wield technology, humans, demons, magic, the law, and crime with
equal acuity. If the Senior Partners themselves don't understand
it, they hire someone who does and thus have adapted better than
any Great Old One we've seen could possibly.
The First could have learned alot from these guys.
[> [> Re: My own speculation -- David, 10:56:28
03/11/04 Thu
I like your theory. I haven't seen this episode yet but it sounds
cool. Anyway i think the senior partners gradually adapter to
the changing world and began to use humans unlike other entity's
that just want to kill all humans. Also like Adam said, demons
cling to the old ways and are hopeless with technology but the
SP's aren't as they have a multi-million dollar lab. They also
probably gained more knowledge of magic and were able to become
more god-like which is shown when they send Lilah back. It's kinda
like Willow, at first she can only float a pencil then she has
the power to end the world and create an army of slayers.
[> [> [> Re: My own speculation -- blah blah,
10:12:15 03/12/04 Fri
I think wolfram and hart are just three olde skewl wizards who
have transcended this reality.
[> From season one Buffy "The Harvest" --
Rufus, 03:56:40 03/11/04 Thu
Giles: This world is older than any of you know. Contrary to
popular mythology, it did not begin as a paradise. For untold
eons demons walked the Earth. They made it their home, their...
their Hell. But in time
they lost their purchase on this reality. The way was made
for mortal animals, for, for man. All that remains of the
old ones are vestiges, certain magicks, certain creatures...
There is power and there is power. I see the Old Ones as powerful
beings but not so powerful that they could never fail. Somehow
they lost and humanity was allowed to gain purchase over the Earth.
Things aren't always as they seem and the all powerful can have
some faults that lead them down a well. So, what is more powerful
than an Old One or is it just a game where chance and luck can
win all?
[> [> Re: From season one Buffy "The Harvest"
-- Korina, 10:03:55 03/11/04 Thu
Hi. Newbie, here. It's interesting how Giles says, 'The way was
made...', as if something made it, not as if it just happened
on its own. TPTB?
Korina
[> [> [> Re: From season one Buffy "The Harvest"...The
Gaia Hypothesis -- Rufus, 16:38:14 03/11/04 Thu
Oh goody, a newbie...welcome to the board.
Yes, I think Giles description does leave room for a few things
to happen. It's in season 7's episode Lessons that I considered
why humans are the ones that ended up on top in the world. If
you look at the Old Ones consider what Drogyn said about what
the Old Ones spent their time doing...going to war with each other.
They were stuck in their ways, stagnant to any progress. Then
they ended up in the Deeper Well, those that were left. In season
seven, Willow and Giles spoke of the earth...
GILES: That doesn't belong there.
WILLOW: No, it doesn't.
GILES: That's the flora kua alaya. A native of Paraguay, if my
botany serves.
WILLOW: Is there anything you don't know everything about?
GILES: Synchronized swimming. Complete mystery to me.
Moves closer.
GILES: Yep. Paraguay. Where does it come from?
WILLOW: Paraguay.
GILES: Who brought it through the Earth?
WILLOW: It's all connected. The root systems, the molecules...the
energy. Everything's connected.
*
*
WILLOW
When you brought me here, I thought it was to kill me or to lock
me in some mystical dungeon for all eternity orówith the
torture. Instead, you go all Dumbledore on me. I'm learning about
magic. All about energy and Gaia and root systems.
GILES
Do you want to be punished?
WILLOW
I wanna be Willow.
GILES
You are. In the end, we all are who we are, no matter how much
we may appear to have changed.
In Grave, Giles had this to say about magic to Anya...
GILES: No, she's alive. It, uh ... the magic she took from
me, it-it did what I hoped it would do.
ANYA: Oh. (getting it) You dosed her.
GILES: Yes.
ANYA: You knew she'd going to take your powers all along.
GILES: The gift I was given by the coven was the true essence
of magic. Willow's magic came from a ... place of rage and power.
ANYA: And vengeance. Don't forget vengeance.
GILES: Oh. How could I? In any case, the magic she took from me
tapped into ... the spark of humanity she had left. Helped
her to feel again. Gave Xander the opportunity to ... reach
her.
I suspect that you could easily say that the Old Ones power comes
from that place of rage and power, they were not connected, couldn't
feel any pain past their own. They may be immortal but they don't
live. Mortals may die but they are connected, most of them. Angel
said it well when he told Illyria....
Angel: You're about as low as it gets, Knox, but you're a part
of humanity. That isn't always pretty, but it's a hell of a
lot better than what came before. And if it comes down to
a choice between you and him....then, yes, I would fight for his
life, just like any other humans...because that's what PEOPLE
do, that's what makes us....(shot fired, Knox falls dead...Angel
turns and looks at Wes) Were you even listening?
Wonder how Angel would have finished that speech to Illyria. People,
mortals are connected, Old Ones are not. The difference is in
the ability to love and sacrifice. In a world where everything
is connected, Illyria doesn't belong, at least in it's native
state...have to see what happens to the shell next.
[> [> [> [> major "shells" spoiler above
(if anyone hasn't already seen it in the "wesley" thread
below), &... -- anom, 13:50:32 03/12/04 Fri
If there are any unspoiled folks left, avoid the "no problem"
post in that thread.
I like the idea that the human ability to empathize & make connections
is a greater asset for survival of our kind than even immortality
was for the Old Ones.
Firefly dvd question (mild, inconsequential Firefly
spoilers) -- Seven, 14:50:52 03/11/04 Thu
Hey folks
My fellow Joss fanatics and I have held off until now to buy and
watch the Firefly DVD's. None of us have seen the show before
and we just started watching the episodes. The question we have
is...
What the hell order do we watch them?!
We started with "The Train Job" and then went to "Bushwacked,"
then "Our Mrs. Reynolds" and "Jaynestown,"
and finally the magnificent "Out of Gas."
Obviously for anyone who has the DVD's, we are watching according
to air date. So why are the DVD's out of order? Having watched
the begining of "Serenity," I thought that maybe the
DVD's were set up according to the continuity of the show, since
the events in the beginning of "Serenity" seem to be
in flashback. So what's the deal? And how should we handle the
"never aired" episodes? Someone help! We are extreme
continuity freaks and do not want our viewing pleasure tainted!!
whew. ok, I'm alright again. So anyone want to take a shot at
an answer?
thanks
7
Replies:
[> Re: Firefly dvd question (mild, inconsequential Firefly
spoilers) -- Freki, 15:21:43 03/11/04 Thu
The episodes were aired out of order, so it's best to watch them
in the order on the DVDs. There were actually two pilots made.
The two-part Serenity was the original pilot, but Fox wanted something
with more action, so Joss and Tim Minear wrote The Train Job in
a weekend, and that aired first. Serenity was actually the last
episode to air. (Way to go, Fox)
Same thing for the unaired episodes - they fit in continuity in
the order they are on the DVDs.
[> Re: Firefly dvd question (mild, inconsequential Firefly
spoilers) -- Antigone, 15:43:04 03/11/04 Thu
Hi fellow Firefly fan:
Actually you should watch them in the DVD order, which is the
order Joss intended when writing and shooting the show. Problem
is, the show was on the almighty "let's-destroy-shows-before-we-air-them"
Fox and the execs thought "Serenity" (not a "fashback"
but the original pilote as written by Joss) did not have enough
action or something (what were they thinking!) and forced Joss
to change the order and modify "Train Job," a later
episode, to make it into the season opener. Then Joss had to move
the other episodes around to give the series some sense. That's
why episodes got aired "out of whack." The "real
pilot," "Serenity" was finally aired by Fox before
the show went off the air. At that time Fox had already announced
the cancellation of Firefly; for some reason they refused to air
three episodes that had already been shot (like "Heart of
Gold"). In summary, the show did not make much sense in the
order it was aired (most people agree this is one of the reasons
the show never found its audience). If you saw the episode by
air dates you may even have noticed conitnuity issues (for exmaple
in the Doc/Kaylee relationship). And of course Joss never got
a chance to finish the season either. Can't wait for the movie
to give us a bit of closure!
My advice (and I saw the show both in the "wrong Fox order"
originally and in the "correct DVD order" since then):
watch the episodes in the order Joss and Tim created the show,
i.e. not based on air dates, but in the order the episodes are
laid out in the DVD. As for the "never aired episodes"
same thing.
[> [> Re: Firefly dvd question (mild, inconsequential
Firefly spoilers) -- Invisible Green, 17:57:10 03/11/04
Thu
Yes, watch the eps in the DVD order. The episodes aired out of
order for the following reasons.
Serenity aired last because FOX didn't like it. They wanted a
fast-paced start, not an introduction. So then The Train Job was
made to be the new pilot. FOX was going to air Serenity eventually,
though, since it cost them $10 million.
Shindig and Safe were shifted to after Out of Gas by Tim Minear.
He didn't want Shindig to air because they skipped Serenity, and
he wanted the audience to understand the character relationships
before seeing Shindig. Also, they had major major production problems
on Safe. After viewing the initial cut, Joss and Tim agreed that
it was one of the worst episodes they had ever done. So large
parts of the episode were rewritten and reshot, to give a satisfatory
episode. It wouldn't have been ready to air ontime. They finshed
editing it after they finished editing Ariel.
Tim Minear has stated that he actually prefers Safe and Shindig
after Out of Gas, but Joss disagrees.
Joss Whedon skipped to Objects in Space after War Stories because
at that point, they only had one time slot left (other than Serenity)
and they wanted Joss wanted to make sure Objects in Space (the
last episode) aired (plus, they wanted to reshoot some scenes
for Heart of Gold).
Trash and The Message (the last two episodes that were produced)
were commisioned after the initial 13-episode order, along with
four additional scripts which were never picked up by FOX. Because
they didn't know which (if any) episodes of the 6 additional scripts
FOX would pick up, they wrote them without a strong sense of continuity,
not as final episodes, avoiding the major plot point in Heart
of Gold that is also refered to in the DVD version of Objects
in Space (this scene was changed for the broadcast version because
Heart of Gold never aired in the US, but it is included on the
DVD set as a deleted scene).
Therefore, Trash and The Message take place before Heart of Gold
and Objects in Space (confirmed by both Joss and Tim).
[> [> YES! Air date! -- mamcu, 18:37:55 03/11/04
Thu
Second that emotion!
[> Re: Firefly dvd question (mild, inconsequential Firefly
spoilers) -- LittleBit, 16:51:15 03/11/04 Thu
The intended order of the previously aired episodes (and therefore
the order in which the development occurs correctly):
Serentity
The Train Job
Bushwhacked
Shindig
Safe
Our Mrs. Reynolds
Jaynestown
Out of Gas
Ariel
War Stories
Objects in Space
[> [> Re: Firefly dvd question (mild, inconsequential
Firefly spoilers) -- Invisible Green, 17:55:39 03/11/04
Thu
Yes, watch the eps in the DVD order. The episodes aired out of
order for the following reasons.
Serenity aired last because FOX didn't like it. They wanted a
fast-paced start, not an introduction. So then The Train Job was
made to be the new pilot. FOX was going to air Serenity eventually,
though, since it cost them $10 million.
Shindig and Safe were shifted to after Out of Gas by Tim Minear.
He didn't want Shindig to air because they skipped Serenity, and
he wanted the audience to understand the character relationships
before seeing Shindig. Also, they had major major production problems
on Safe. After viewing the initial cut, Joss and Tim agreed that
it was one of the worst episodes they had ever done. So large
parts of the episode were rewritten and reshot, to give a satisfatory
episode. It wouldn't have been ready to air ontime. They finshed
editing it after they finished editing Ariel.
Tim Minear has stated that he actually prefers Safe and Shindig
after Out of Gas, but Joss disagrees.
Joss Whedon skipped to Objects in Space after War Stories because
at that point, they only had one time slot left (other than Serenity)
and they wanted Joss wanted to make sure Objects in Space (the
last episode) aired (plus, they wanted to reshoot some scenes
for Heart of Gold).
Trash and The Message (the last two episodes that were produced)
were commisioned after the initial 13-episode order, along with
four additional scripts which were never picked up by FOX. Because
they didn't know which (if any) episodes of the 6 additional scripts
FOX would pick up, they wrote them without a strong sense of continuity,
not as final episodes, avoiding the major plot point in Heart
of Gold that is also refered to in the DVD version of Objects
in Space (this scene was changed for the broadcast version because
Heart of Gold never aired in the US, but it is included on the
DVD set as a deleted scene).
Therefore, Trash and The Message take place before Heart of Gold
and Objects in Space (confirmed by both Joss and Tim).
[> Thank you all very very much. Now we have a reason to
re-watch (as if we needed one) -- Seven, 18:13:30 03/11/04
Thu
I knew something was up, but I never guessed it was this! Now
I have a much bigger appreciation for how Joss and crew handle
the cancelling of Angel. After let-down followed by let-down,
I wouldn't have the energy either. I love hearing that this show
will have a movie continuation, as we are all starting to really
enjoy it. "Out of Gas" and "The Train Job"
were amazing and my personal favorites so far.
Thanks again to everyone.
7 (and friends)
[> [> And another bonus with the DVD version is...
-- OnM, 18:46:06 03/11/04 Thu
... that you get to see the eps in the original, gorgeous anamorphic
16x9 widescreen that they were shot in. Most of the Fox affiliates
aired the show in a cropped 4x3 (std. TV) format. You only got
to see the widescreen version if you were lucky enough to be an
HDTV owner (like 2% of the viewing populace at the time, oooo!)
and within range of a FOX affiliate with a digital channel that
was actually operational.
Even then, you might not get what was intended. I recall staying
late at the store one evening, just to try to catch an ep in digital
from the Philadelphia affiliate. I tuned in, only to find the
show not only in 4x3 format, but obviously geometrically distorted.
I reset the TV I was using to one of its zoom modes to reduce
the distortion as much as possible, and then about 20 minutes
into the broadcast someone at the studio finally noticed
that they has screwed up, and the picture suddenly altered itself
into the correct aspect ratio!
The next week I tuned in again, and they were running the standard
(analog) format version, (badly) upconverted for the digital channel,
and letterboxed on the sides!! I gave up trying after that and
just decided to watch at home on my plain ol' regular TV set.
Sheesh!
:-(
"BtVS"/"AtS" and "24"
- Plot Similarities? (SPOILERS) -- Claudia, 15:31:07 03/11/04
Thu
S
P
O
I
L
E
R
Mutant Enemy and the producers of ì24î strikes again!
Nearly a year ago, the BtVS episode, ìEmpty Placesî
featured Buffy being ousted as leader by the Scoobies and the
Potentials. An hour later, an episode of ì24î featured
President David Palmer being ousted out of office by his Vice-President
and the majority of Cabinet (John Rubenstein, who played ìLinwoodî
on AtS was among them).
This season, ì24î aired an episode just two or three
weeks ago, in which CTU agent, Jack Bauer, murdered his wifeís
killer, Nina Meyers, in cold blood. A week or two later, the AtS
episode, ìShellsî aired on television, and it included
Wesley Wyndham-Price murdering Knox and stabbing Charles Gunn
in cold blood.
Is it just me or does it seem that not only does Mutant Enemy
and the show, ì24î feature not the same actors, but
similar plot devices?
Replies:
[> Re: "BtVS"/"AtS" and "24"
- Plot Similarities? (SPOILERS) -- LittleBit, 16:59:44
03/11/04 Thu
I'd say that shows (any shows) feature similar plot devices because
they are just that...plot devices. In particular, there's
precious little likelihood that the episodes mentioned used similar
devices for any reason other than coincidence (which given you
note one coincidence per season isn't unreasonable) and not for
any intentional reason since the episodes would have been completed
well before the one to two week lead time between airings.
[> [> Re: "BtVS"/"AtS" and "24"
- Plot Similarities? (SPOILERS) -- LittleBite [laughing at
the idiot alter-ego], 18:02:25 03/11/04 Thu
'Bit, you fool! You wouldn't recognize a conspiracy if it came
and bit you! Obviously the shared actors are taking storylines
back and forth!
[> [> [> Re: "BtVS"/"AtS" and
"24" - Plot Similarities? (SPOILERS) -- Buffalo,
12:32:29 03/12/04 Fri
Well, when you've got Jasmine dating Principal Woods...
[> [> [> [> Conspiracy? -- Claudia, 14:58:28
03/13/04 Sat
Conspiracy? Who in the hell mentioned conspiracy? I certainly
didn't. All I did was point out the fact that twice . . . a Mutant
Enemy show and "24" featured plot lines that were similar.
Once, last season and once, this season. How did conspiracy get
into the picture?
[> [> [> [> [> Hmmm.... -- LittleBite, 17:00:35
03/13/04 Sat
Does the term Evil Alter Ego ring any bells?
Memories of Angel and The Cellphone -- Mike,
19:37:21 03/11/04 Thu
I couldn't resist but bring up a rather interesting, background
recap of the few years Angel has used a cellphone. Certain episodes
in all five seasons of Angel have displayed Angel's dislike of
the cellphone. I, for one,
find every display of dislike to the cellphone entertaining.
For the record, I have a cellphone myself, I just began regrouping
certain examples where Angel and the cellphone just don't get
along. Now I'm not 100 percent sure if Angel ever used a cell
in his first 3 years on Buffy, or prior to meeting Buffy. The
earliest I recall was in 1st Season's "She", Angel chases
Jheira and contacts Cordy on a cell. Angel tries to talk to Cordy
but the cell runs out of battery, then he hooks the charger up
and resumes discussion. Even then the phone keeps cutting off
and only snippets of talk get thru, Angel frustratingly hangs
up the blasted phone.
Another time was in 3rd Season's "Provider", Angel after
dealing with Sam Ryan is on his way to help the rest of the gang.
He hears a tone on his cell but doesn't seem to know what this
tone means. It appears Angel had some trouble activating his voicemail.
Also in 3rd Season's "Tomorrow",
Angel tries to call Cordy while on top of Mount Doom, some name
like that, and he drops the cell down the cliff. He mentions once
again that he hates cellphones.
More recently, in 5th Season's "Destiny", Angel is easily
fooled by Spike into thinking that the cell is breaking up
as he chases his rival for The Cup. Rather similar to 1st Season
scene, Angel driving a car, losing cell connection.
Now probably my favoite Angel-cellphone scene, in 5th Season's
"Shells", Angl talksto Giles. After Giles rejects
helping him, Angel abruptly hangs up on him and throws the cell
to the wall. It shatters to pieces, he's really pissed off.
And I believe there have been other instances of humorous interaction
between the others and their own cellphones
in AI.
Most likely, Angel and the cellphone will not have seen the last
of one another. He's CEO, he could always get another cell in
a heartbeat. But throwing that cell against the wall
came as a surprise when I first saw it. And yet I felt I shouldn't
have been surprised considering Angel's dislike for the damn little
cell things. Just thought I'd share that with anyone in case anyone's
really noticed about the Angel-cell thing.
Replies:
[> Season 1 - War Zone -- Cheryl, 20:07:02 03/11/04
Thu
Transcript courtesy of BuffyWorld.com:
Angel sticks his hand through the hole but can't reach the handle.
A hand reaches past his bruised and bleeding knuckles and opens
the door.
Cordy: "Trying to open that? (Angel leans against the doorjamb,
looking at Cordy and Wesley) They locked you in, huh?"
Angel: "No. I just love old meat lockers."
Wesley: "You should've tried to call us on your cell phone.
- You probably forgot you had it."
Angel takes his cell phone out and looks at it.
Angel: "These things hardly ever work. Besides it was a lot
easier and quicker to just (mimes punching a hole and grimaces,
shaking his hand) - Look, I'm the boss here, I say when we use
the cell phones and people are gonna die and - I have to go."
Leaves.
Cordy yells after him: "You're welcome!"
[> [> Re: Season 1 - War Zone -- Ann, 20:20:26
03/11/04 Thu
"Cordy yells after him: "You're welcome!"
Wow, wow. The images and dialogue that ties these episodes together.
Truely, how do they keep track?
[> [> [> Re: Season 1 - War Zone -- MBB, 07:53:30
03/12/04 Fri
Mike, great discovery :-)
I never realised this show supported my live of 'absolence of
the cellphone' :-) (The list of reasons to like ATS is endless
:-P )
BTW, Angel is not font of answering machines either in A2x15 Reprise
he does not immediately react when Kate Lockley calls him and
the machine picks up (although that might be due to his bad mood)
Cheryl, great quote :-D
[> [> Re: Season 1 - War Zone -- angel's nibblet,
14:19:38 03/12/04 Fri
Oooooo, freaky, I was just watching that ep yesterday!
Heheehe, love the meatlocker scene, classic
[> [> Re: Season 1 - War Zone -- Mike, 13:21:53
03/13/04 Sat
Cheryl, thanks for reminding me about War Zone, great scene. Totally
emphasizing another aspect to the Angel/Cellphone estranged relationship.
And to MMB for picking up on that answering machine bit in Reprise.
Perhaps Angel really is a late late late bloomer with modern technology
altogether.
[> & "heartthrob" in season 3 -- anom, 22:17:02
03/16/04 Tue
OK, Angel isn't actually using the cell phone, but he's right
there.
Angel & Cordelia are hiding out from the invincible James in a
sewer tunnel.
"Suddenly Cordelia's cell phone rings. Both she and Angel
jump, extremely startled.
ANGEL: Jeez.
CORDELIA: (takes out her phone) Sorry. Cell phone.
Cut to Caritas. Wesley is talking on his cell phone.
WESLEY: Cordelia? Is that you? Can you hear me?
Cut back to the tunnel. Cordy presses her free hand against her
other ear, straining to hear.
CORDELIA: (into phone) Huh? What? Say that again.
Cut back to Caritas.
WESLEY: (into phone) There's something you have to know about
James.
Cut back to tunnel.
CORDELIA: (into phone) Oh, he's invincible, is he? (gives Angel
a dirty look) He went to a what? Slog Demon, what's that? (to
Angel) Some kind of doctor demon that, uh, collects rare organs.
(to phone, shocked) Cut out his heart?! (to Angel) Absolutely
cannot be killed. (to phone) Wait, what? How long? Six what? What?
(stamps foot) Hello?!
She makes an annoyed sound and looks at the cell phone.
CORDELIA: No signal! (to Angel) Okay, the guy's invincible, but
it only lasts for so long and then he dies.
ANGEL: How long?
CORDELIA: He said, I don't know, six minutes, hours, weeks ...
I hate these! Come on, give me a signal! (flips phone shut, then
open again, etc.)
ANGEL: It's good news. All we have to do is, is ... is wait him
out.
CORDELIA: Right. We'll just wait here until we're sure."
Earlier, this episode also contains what may be Angel's only uneventful
use of a cell phone (OK, probably not):
Wes & Gunn have gotten some info from Merl at Caritas.
"MERL: This guy James you're lookin' for? He's alive, he's
in town ... and he knows what Angel did to his heartthrob. He's
out for blood.
Wesley looks over at Gunn, gives a little nod. Gunn turns away,
pulls out a cell phone.
ANGEL VOICEOVER: Yeah, do that.
Cut to hotel lobby. Angel is on the phone.
ANGEL: (into phone) I'll cover this end. Thanks.
Angel hangs up as Cordelia comes up, having heard."
But it foreshadows the later scene!
(Quotes are from the Buffy vs Angel site.)
Let's show our support for the Los Angeles rallyers
-- Matlack73, 19:50:02 03/11/04 Thu
Hey everybody, on saveangelrally.com, there is a post thanking
the people who are participating in tomorrow's Save Angel rally
in Los Angeles. Let's show Pepper and the gang how much their
efforts mean to us.
You could view the post at:
http://www.saveangelrally.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=222#222
Angel's Five Years as the most pivotal period
in Angel's unlife -- Mike, 20:35:46 03/11/04 Thu
If Angel really does end after this season, and I'm not hanging
up my enthusiasm until it becomes permanent, really permanent
that it's over, I'll look at the series as the most pivotal period
in Angel's unlife. The five years in time where Angel really came
around as a hero in his own right and an essential period of redemption
at this stage in his unlife. Angel wasn't just atoning anymore,
he offically set out to help the helpless. Thru all this, Angel
has suffered pain, loss, destruction, the whole ball of wax of
Hell. More so I believe in these five years then in his first
100+ years of atoning, if only because there have been those he
loved and cared about who have died around him. The series' lifespan
showcases Angel's connection to people, the good parts (laughter,
celebration)and the bad parts (betrayal, grief).
Angel also developed a sorta family of his own, close friends,
and the miracle of a son. Unlike his place in the early Scooby
Gang (mostly an informant and supporting fighter), Angel's Fang
Gang allies have been where he really belonged. Not to mention
as others have speculated
before, everyone in The Fang Gang has mirrored at one time or
another Angel's dark side. They could relate in some ways to Angel,
Angel can relate to them, like family.
This series has therefore been an open window into Angel's most
essential period of redemption, from then on, Angel will continue
to fight until he dies (1 way or another) or becomes human, or
something that would offically end his time in the good fight.
ANGEL RULES!!!!!
"Angel" won Kristen's "Save One
Show" campaign by an unprecedented 85%!!! -- Rob, 20:40:10
03/11/04 Thu
http://www.eonline.com/Gossip/Kristin/Archive2004/040312.html
She will be writing a letter to the network heads, including all
information about the results:
To the Powers That Be at the WB and UPN: TV fans around
the world have spoken through E! Online's Save One Show
campaign, showing overwhelming support for the recently canceled
Angel. On their behalf, I am here to beg, plead and share
with you the top five reasons this undead champ deserves to live.
1. The Fan Efforts Are Unprecedented. Not only have Angel
supporters signed petitions (more than 75,000 on one site alone)
and donated their own money for full-page ads in the Hollywood
Reporter and Variety, they're taking positive action by sending
flowers to WB executives such as Jordan Levin (who, in turn, has
passed them along to children's hospitals), organizing rallies
in Los Angeles and Hamburg, Germany--and even holding a blood
drive to keep Angel alive. You will not find more dedicated
fans!
2. The Ratings Are Strong. Its average of 3.7 million viewers
this season--those aforementioned die-hard fans--proves Angel
packs more Nielsen's power than most WB and UPN shows. And thanks
to syndication on TNT, many new viewers are discovering the series.
3. The Fans Deserve a Good Send-Off. The cancellation happened
so late in the game that mastermind Joss Whedon simply doesn't
have time to work up an adequate farewell--one with all the brilliant
touches I'm sure he'd imagined for Angel's swan song. According
to my sources, [POSSIBLE CASTING SPOILERS IN INVISO-TEXT]producers have contacted Sarah Michelle Gellar,
Alyson Hannigan and Michelle Trachtenberg about returning, but
due to the late notice, none have yet been able to commit. Sarah
might be available, but Alyson is starring in a London play and
Michelle has been cast in a Disney movie, so they aren't expected
to be back.
4. The New Dynamic Is Working: It has been around
for five seasons, but Angel really hit its stride this
year with the addition of James Marsters and the big, fancy Wolfram
& Hart set. The storylines have kept us on the edge of our seats--proving
there is lots more life in the show.
5. It's One of the Best Dramas on Television: Sorry, but
it has to be said. With shows like The Help, The Mullets
and Run of the House getting screentime this season, the
WB and UPN should feel lucky to have a show like Angel
to avoid sinking further into a pit of mediocrity. Angel
has more heart and soul than any of that cheesy "family programming"
and boasts some of the best writing on television, which is why
it's consistently championed by critics and fans alike.
It's never too late to do the right thing. Save Angel,
and you'll be a hero to millions of fans around the world (and
one lowly tube maven who'll never be the same without it).
Replies:
[> Re: That's fantastic!!!! -- Vegeta, 09:14:22 03/12/04
Fri
Thanks Rob, I forgot about that poll. I mean what results! 85%!!!
Wow, that really says something. Long Live "Angel"
[> Great news to wake up to! -- Masq, 09:43:23 03/12/04
Fri
I've been waiting to hear news of the results of the Flowers for
Levin campaign, the reaction to the ad in the Hollywood Reporter,
and the result of this poll.
And yeah for Kristin for using her influence in the battle!
[> i think we should thank her--where do we write? --
anom, who took a pass on the inviso-text, 12:22:24 03/12/04
Fri
I'd use the URL you provided, Rob, but I don't want to get possible-casting-spoiled.
Kristen is obviously one of us (gooble gobble!)--she wasn't just
passing on her results but boosting the show because she believes
in it & personally wants to help save it. That's worth a show
of appreciation.
[> [> Kristin's email -- Masq, 13:11:04 03/12/04
Fri
tvdiva@eonline.com
[> [> [> Ah, good! So just ignore my response, then,
since I didn't know the e-mail addy! :oD -- Rob, 13:13:24
03/12/04 Fri
[> [> Re: i think we should thank her--where do we write?
-- Rob, 13:11:58 03/12/04 Fri
I don't think she has an e-mail addy listed, but she has a form
page at http://www.eonline.com/Gossip/Kristin/Ask/index.html where
you can submit questions to her. So I'm sure we could write "thank
you" notes there.
Rob
[> Jumpi' Judas on a unicycle!!!! -- angel's nibblet,
13:43:16 03/12/04 Fri
85%!!!!!
Holy freakin' poop!!!
*does the Numfar dance of joy*
Obviously this show means a lot to people :-D but then again,
we already knew that!
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