March 2004 posts
Buffy's
Spiritual Journey 1.9, Puppets of Fate -- manwitch, 12:17:27
03/05/04 Fri
This post is about the Puppet Show episode of Buffy, not
the muppet show episode of Angel, nor even the Muppet
Show of which my wife wants me to get the DVDs.
The first season of Buffy really just kept getting more and more
interesting and entertaining as it went on. I personally thought
the Puppet Show was delightful, both for the amusing little
story it was telling in and of itself, but also for what it foreshadowed,
where it told us we were going.
In these posts about Buffyís spiritual journey for Season
1, Iíve talked a lot about the child metaphors that every
episode uses. The Puppet Show cranks it up a notch by having
two. It has a mature, if horny, spirit trapped in the small and
dependent body of the puppet, a clear child image, but attempting
to leave that role in which it is trapped and in which it knows
it does not belong. And we have a spiritually immature demon,
who seeks to remain a child, clinging to this form, even
at the expense of heart and mind. So this episode reveals again
the choice Buffy has before her: She can cling to this child existence
that her ego is so reluctant to let go, or she can kill that ego
and move on to another plane where deep down she knows she belongs.
Allow me to reiterate briefly that the point of the Buffy child
metaphors is not about being a physical child who needs
to behave more like an adult. The show depicts growing
up from teen to young adult, but its not about simply that. We
donít watch it for the nostalgia. The show is addressing
us even when we are long passed young adulthood. And in this season,
the child metaphors are an enormous part of what it is saying.
They have to do with recognizing who you really are, what your
role really is, regardless of your age. In Buffyís case,
she has a spiritual destiny, and she thinks she can avoid
it, reject it, not want it. And this is not, of course, something
that you go through when you are sixteen, its something you go
through all the time, at any age. Whether we asked for it or not,
there is a spiritual aspect to our lives, a mystery dimension,
and when we reject it or shut it down, we are deadening our own
lives, flattening our experience. Itís a disservice to
ourselves and to the communities and world of which we are a part
to do so
And the lesson of Season 1 for Buffy, and for us, is how and why
you get past that, how you overcome your idea of what you thought
you wanted and embrace your destiny by opening up to the spiritual
mystery that you are. Its in this episode that we see Buffy start
to make that choice, as she fights the demon whose material impulse
is to remain forever a child, and as she offers to help Sid, whose
spiritual impulse is to stop holding on and find a way to where
he belongs. She is starting to recognize which choice is appropriate
and which not.
And itís a good thing too, because, as this episode also
reveals, time is running out. Buffy, Xander and Willow attempt
to do a dramatic scene for the talent show. Its significance is
not simply that a dramatic scene requires no actual talent, but
that what they choose is Oedipus. Oedipus is given a destiny.
It is, admittedly, not a very pleasant one, but I would argue
that it is his attempt to avoid it that crushes him. Its his very
attempt to avoid his fate that brings him to it. There is a line
from Seneca that Campbell always quotes that I think is very much
on point with Season 1: ìThe fates lead him who will; him
who wonít, they drag.î The fate that is laid out
for you is going to happen. It can be a nightmare if you try to
resist it, or it could be the fulfillment of a dream if you embrace
it. It seems to me that by choosing Oedipus, the writers are telling
us that Buffyís destiny is set, and while the character
it takes when she meets it is not set in stone, she is running
out of time. Her destiny is a-coming.
I feel like the fates have a get out of jail free card that they
can give to people if they think its warranted. The fates set
up your destiny with prohpecies and what not, but its all a test
of character. The fact is, life is tough, and weíre all
left at some time or other with some pretty sucky choices. The
Fates just want to see who we are as we make those choices. ìOedipus,
youíre gonna sleep with your mom and kill your dad,î
they say. But they really just want to see who he is. When the
response is to cling to your ego, to evade, to run, to outsmart
the Fates, they get pissed off, and thatís when they crush
you. But if you accept, and even embrace, parituclarly if you
do it compassionately, theyíll find a way to bail you out.
Because you showed the character they wanted to see. If Oedipus
had gone to his mom and said, ìHey, we must now sleep together
as the fulfillment of my destiny,î it would have worked
out. The fates wouldíve been like, dude, it turns out sheís
not your real mom! Youíre not even related! Youíre
no worse than Woody Allen!
Now it seems the Fates want to see who Buffy is going to be when
she meets this destiny.
Its easy to over-interpret Buffy the Vampire Slayer, but
it seems one could at least argue that other suggestions of prophecy
and destiny appear in this episode. The demon ends the teaser
by saying ìI will be flesh!î Its difficult for me,
especially with ìcontroversialî films filling our
cineplexes, not to recall that what was made flesh, in John chapter
1, is the word of God. ìAnd the word was made flesh and
dwelt among us.î And that of course is Christ, the union
of the divine and mortal here on earth. So this line seems to
have an interesting double usage here. ìI will be fleshî
is of course the demonís literal desire to grab another
seven years in the fleshy form of a child. Its sort of a perversion
of the ìword was made fleshî idea in that its emphasis
is not on the word taking shape here, but simply on the flesh
itself, on the material. And of course, by reference, this relates
back to Buffy whose emphasis has been on her material flesh, lovely
though it is, rather than on the ìwordî that should
animate it. It is the spiritual drive Buffy has been suppressing,
that she fears because of its unknown power, that is calling out
to Buffy to be made flesh in her. And until sheís ready,
its going to look and sound like one frightening demon or another.
And John 1 includes also the story of John the Baptist, similar
to the version we examined when discussing Angelís tatoo
and its reference to Mark. Mark is significant among the gospels
for being the only one in which, at least textually speaking,
Jesus becomes divine, rather than starting out that way.
In Mark, John the Baptist prophecizes that there is one mightier
then he to come after him, and it is upon Jesusís baptism
by John that the heavens open and the spirit of God descends on
him like a dove. In John we read that Jesus, while already the
word made flesh, is baptized by John and again the heavens open
and the spirit of God descends upon him like a dove. Itís
the same bit of story, John and Mark, referenced earlier to Mark
in the episode Angel by way of Angelís tattoo, and
now to John by way of the very prominent line at the end of the
teaser. And while thinking about it, I canít help but notice
that the name Marc, while spelt differently, appears very prominently
in The Puppet Show.
And what is this story to which we seem, at risk of over interpretation,
to be more than once directed? Itís the story of a fulfillment
of prophecy through the incarnation of the spirit by baptism in
the world of the flesh. Jesus is the fulfillment of Johnís
prophecy. The Christ is the fulfillment of a more ancient prophecy.
Jesus comes to John to be baptized. Christ comes to the world
to save and redeem through compassion for our suffering. The baptism
is the moment when the spirit descends and reveals itself in the
flesh, after which the divine spirit dwells among us in human
form.
I suggest that sums up completely the resolution, meaning and
consequences of Season 1. But Iím getting ahead of myself.
Episode 12 will come eventually.
In the meantime, Buffy is only just starting to realize that its
time, like Sid, to move on. Her compassion for Sid is the first
palpable demonstration we have that she is starting to get the
message. Once again, Buffy, still resistant to her calling as
the Slayer, does not kill the demon. But she gets credit for offering.
Out of compassion for Sid, sheís willing to do it. But
Sid imparts one final lesson. If you are really going to embrace
your spiritual role, the last trick, ultimately, must be done
by you, not someone else. Thanks for the offer, but I kinda have
to do this myself.
So, Puppet Show is great. Plus, Giles has now been used
clearly and emphatically to represent ìmind,î while
at the same time showing that Willow specifically does not represent
it. So our Heart Mind and Spirit breakdown is at least strongly
suggested if not firmly established here by Episode 9.
I suspect also that we see in this episode a slight shift in attitude
towards magic that may be simple evolution or may be the result
of Buffyís slow maturation. In the Witch, while
magic itself seemed neutral (Giles was going to use its power
for good at the end) the Witch herself was quite negatively portrayed.
Even in The Pack the magic is at best neutral, but certainly
seems to have an element of malice about it. But here, the demon,
i.e. that associated with wanting to remain a child, is a magician,
but his magic lacks talent. Its all trickery and shoddy slight
of hand attempting to be what he isnít. But there is a
real enchantment about Sid, who is to be associated with the choice
of spiritual maturity, and is attempting to be who he is. Perhaps
different stories require different things. But I think it could
also be argued that the change goes hand in hand with Buffyís
development. As she becomes less frightened of her own mysterious
powers and possibilities, she will see magic all around her as
less threatening, although at this point Sid still creeps her
out. Just a thought.
The Top Ten Percent (so far)
1. The Puppet Show
2. Angel
3. Never Kill a Boy on the First Date
4. I, Robot, You Jane
5. Witch
6. The Pack
7. Welcome to the Hellmouth
8. Teachers Pet
9. The Harvest
10.
11.
12.
13.
14.
Replies:
[> Excellent. Great point about Oedipus -- Sophist,
13:01:24 03/05/04 Fri
[> Re: Buffy's Spiritual Journey 1.9, Puppets of Fate
-- Random, 14:06:43 03/05/04 Fri
But there's one very important point you might have mentioned,
one that ties very nicely with the destiny and choice issue: Sid
as a dummy is nominally a literal puppet, a creature that exists
solely to be manipulated by others. But he is not only free-willed
and self-controlling, he is actually the dominant personality
in the dyad with Morgan.
The nagging question that bothered me while watching was whether
he was somehow invulnerable. If he wished destruction of his body
-- and presumably release of his soul -- he could have just found
the nearest forest fire (he was in So-Cal, after all) and
tossed himself in. There are several ways to intepret this apparent
oversight, including invulnerability, but I think I prefer one
that carries a certain ethical and/or moral quality to it: he
chose to fulfill his last task, killing the demons, and in doing
so, earned not merely release, but a measure of reward. He prefigures
Buffy in "The Gift", I think. Just as she was the Slayer,
the guardian of humanity, he was a demon-hunter. They both had
their tasks, their self-crafted destinies (and yes, I consider
them "self-crafted" -- Buffy chose to be the
Slayer, even if she didn't choose to inherit the mantle originally.)
It wasn't their happy acceptance of their destinies that made
them special -- it was the fact that the destinies were theirs
by choice. "You have a choice," she tells Ford
in "Lie To Me. " You don't have a good choice, but you
have a choice! !" And in hearing these words, we realize
she is describing life, not merely circumstance. No-one
is exempt from the confluence of events beyond their control to
limit their choices. Buffy's choices happened to be more overtly
heroic or dramatic than most of ours, but that is merely a difference
of degree, not kind. (It's also interesting to compare Morgan
with Ford. Both were dying of brain tumors, yet Morgan appeared
to be choosing to spend his last days fighting the good fight,
while Ford turned to desperate and ultimately evil measures to
prolong his existence at a great cost to others. Morgan, I think,
deserves a higher place in the pantheon of heroes than most people
think to give him.)
The thing to remember about Greek tragedy is that Fate rules all.
While many, if not most, of the problem of the tragic heroes can
be laid at the feet of the capricious, willful gods and goddesses
(see the Illiad and the Odyssey for prime examples), one must
never forget that they too are bound, doomed to repeat patterns,
make mistakes. But the Oedipus analysis is interesting. Essentially,
Oedipus damns himself unknowingly. He tries to flee his fate and
encounters his father as an unknown traveller at the Triple Paths,
killing him..Then, in rescuing Thebes from the sphinx, he is rewarded
with a kingship...and who better for the king to marry in a primitive
divine-rights society than the widowed queen?
I think a better analogy can be made to Hamlet, actually. Destiny
and prophecy are articulated by our drives. One argument that
is generally given for the process methodology of prophecy (and
sometrimes for an omnipotent God, for that matter) is that prophecy
descriptive, not proscriptive. It seems intuitive, but in practice,
many people tend to see prophecy, both within the show's context
and IRL, as something of a driving force, pushing the characters
inexorably to their fate. But one can argue of Hamlet, with the
20/20 hindisght of several centuries, that he could never have
ended in any other way. Character is destiny, and the fact that
he could have made different choices, the fact that the
other characters could have behaved differently, in no
way implies that they would. More to the point, we know
now that they didn't.
For the Greeks, and to a lesser extent, Shakespeare, everything
conspired together to bring about a destiny. It wasn't precisely
motive in the sense that the thunderstorm that delayed a march
or the cow that kicked over the lantern and burned down Chicago
were deliberate. Rather, it was all part and parcel of being unable
to avoid one's fate for too long. Fate is seen as a implacable
creator of destiny, a master weaver (three, actually, as with
the Norse) who creates the tapestry whole. Sisyphus actually managed,
through trickery, to defy the god and his alloted death for quite
a while, but in the end, could not stave off the mortal destiny
indefinitely. Eventually he was dragged down kicking and screaming
to his famous punishment, and that, too, perhaps, all happened
as destined.
But the Sisyphus analogy to BtVS is Camus' Sisyphus, not the ancient
one, I think. It fits nicely with your comments about happiness
in embracing one's destiny. "One must imagine Sisyphus happy,"
Camus says, for Sisyphus has defied the gods and chosen his own
fate. Destiny is no longer woven beforehand, but created in real-time,
each thread choosing, within the limits of its reach, where it
goes. The prophecies predict doom and apocalypse and, rarely,
happy endings...but, in final analysis, it is the prophecies
that are restricted by the players, not the players by the prophecies.
It's a wonderous thought, I think. Yes, Buffy is a hero, and thus
she walked down into the pit to her death at the Master's hand.
But the prophecies couldn't have predicted otherwise, of
course. They were merely the voicings of long-dead seers who saw
the inevitable, that Buffy is a hero and would act as heroes do.
She would sacrifice herself for the world. This is not destiny...it's
character. The prophet becomes the puppet, the hero walks free.
[> [> nicely put. I agree. -- manwitch, 15:23:23
03/05/04 Fri
" But there's one very important point you might have
mentioned, one that ties very nicely with the destiny and choice
issue: Sid as a dummy is nominally a literal puppet, a creature
that exists solely to be manipulated by others. But he is not
only free-willed and self-controlling, he is actually the dominant
personality in the dyad with Morgan."
I agree with this. I think the talent show is really meant to
be the Puppet Show as both are metaphors for our perception of
life. It feels like we are puppets in a puppet show, but
that comes only from our acquiescence, from allowing our strings
to be pulled. And that happens largely because we are afraid to
embrace the inner direction that comes from a spiritual grounding
in compassion. The lesson Sid imparts is that we are not puppets,
we are our own characters. Our destiny may be death, but that's
fine. What matters is how we approach it, how we live, who we
are, not what happens.
So Buffy must embrace her real talent, and become the Slayer on
the stage of life, so to speak, rather than dwelling on the strings
and constraints that we all live with.
"This is not destiny...it's character. The prophet becomes
the puppet, the hero walks free."
nicely put.
[> [> [> Re: nicely put. I agree. -- Random, 07:04:32
03/06/04 Sat
I really should have spent some time on your points regarding
the spiritual growth and the corporealization (and realization)
of the spiritual essence in my previous post. The metaphor of
the spirit incarnated in the puppet (the mechanics are not quite
clear...it is implied that his animus was transplanted
rather than his physical body being transformed) does have resonances
in the Biblical story, and I wouldn't have caught that myself.
One thing that needs to be considered is the fact of Jesus' destiny.
Did he ever have a real choice? He foresaw what would happen to
him and willingly went to his fate. Making Buffy a Christ-figure
is fraught, though there are certainly many valid parallels. One
of the original premises of the show was the ongoing tension between
destiny and individuality, between Buffy the Slayer of the Vam-pyres
and Buffy the normal teenaged girl. Her baptism into Slayerness
was not a singular event, but a process. Giles never initiated
her. He merely provided impulse, knowledge. She initiated herself.
As Jesus stood, freshly-baptized, in the river, God sent down
the message that He was "well pleased" in his son. One
could argue that the parallel to Buffy lies in a darker interpretation
of the patriarchal/spiritual relationship. Who sits in judgment
of Buffy but the W.C., as represented by Giles. Giles would soon
undergo his own spiritual journey, but for now, he is still a
representative of the Council. Would not this message of approval
mean that Buffy chose to sublimate her own desires to that of
the Council? As parallels go, this would seem most apt. Buffy
as a Christ-figure chooses to save the world, but doesn't choose
to do so because the authority that engendered her (assuming the
W.C. is a descendant of the Shadowmen) requires this of her. Her
eventual rebellion against them is precisely the point where cracks
the "Buffy-as-a-Christ-figure" mold become too large
to be ignored. Jesus had his dark night of the soul, his despairing
"Why art thou doing this to me?" on the cross, but Buffy
represents an ongoing struggle to assert her own spiritual
identity.
The importance of the role of the individual cannot be overstated.
Should she accept her fate as the Vampire Slayer, Buffy is essentially
faced with two choices: to be "a Slayer named Buffy",
or to be "Buffy the Vampire Slayer." Does her humanity
provide a filter for the spiritual Slayer, or does it integrate
said spirit into a dynamic, cohesive identity? The title of the
series leaves little doubt as to which one she is supposed to
be, of course, but the actual mechanics are more complicated.
In "The Puppet Show," Buffy encounters a genuine warrior
for Good for the first time (I don't count Angel...he has yet
to reveal his role, and certainly hasn't quite matured into it
as of this episode.) Sid, as the spirit baptized into a body,
provides an interesting counterpart to Buffy. (And would it be
too much of a stretch to compare the seven demons to the seven
deadly sins? Course, then one could point also to the seven cardinal
virtues.) He cannot change. He doesn't age, doesn't waver. As
far as we can tell, his years as a dummy have been spent in a
singular pursuit of, depending on how you look at it, justice
or his own salvation. For all intents and purposes, he is Sid
the Demon Hunter...but, unlike Buffy the Vampire Slayer, that's
all he'll ever be now. The release of his basic human drives has
been denied to him (as the anvilicious references to his sexual
drive makes abundantly clear.) He may have been free to act as
he pleased without strings or human intervention, but he was still
a literal puppet. Buffy, on the other hand, has a choice. The
danger to her spiritual growth comes not simply from the external
intervention of other forces, but from her basic identity as the
Slayer. The spirit of the Slayer is calcified, hardened like the
wooden body encasing Sid. The analogy is...profound.
I think the idea that her identity is dynamic is crucial. Her
resistance to pigeonholing bespeaks a realization of certain basic
human right, the right to choose her own identity and the right
to change and grow over time. Her spiritual journey is not simply
that of a Slayer. The ethic of the Slayer, as we will come to
see in later seasons, allows very little room for humanity. Fight,
kill, destroy. To the extent that the WC perceive the Slayer as
merely a tool (Kendra provides a particularly interesting manifestation
of this ethic), spiritual growth is not only inhibited, but actually
contraindicated. So Buffy must ultimately struggle with two questions:
why do I fight (what do I fight for)? and who am I? (Both very
close to actual episode titles in BtVS and AtS. Coincidence? I
think not. Then, I deliberately chose them after the fact, so
I have good reasons to believe that no coincidence is involved.)
And that happens largely because we are afraid to embrace the
inner direction that comes from a spiritual grounding in compassion.
Why compassion in particular? Certainly, it's important, but is
it either transcendent or exclusive?
[> [> [> [> Some thoughts on the Christ analogy
and on the Sid metaphor -- manwitch, 09:12:04 03/07/04
Sun
"One thing that needs to be considered is the fact of
Jesus' destiny. Did he ever have a real choice?"
My answer would be, of course he did, just as much as Buffy does.
Buffy is already the slayer in Season one. Yet at the same time
she is not because she has not yet chosen to embrace that destiny.
Jesus has ample opportunities, in a sense, to turn away. But again,
we're not speaking literally here. We're not talking about his
ability to change the historical events (to the degree we believe
them to be such), we're talking about his psychological disposition
towards participating in his role in the pageant. Buffy has a
role. She wants to play it differently, or even to not play it.
When she recognizes her role and decides to play it, even unto
death, as the ol' Lord did, she undergoes an enormous transformation.
I think its possible to call Buffy a Christ-figure, but I would
agree that the reference is loose. I don't think the point of
the exercise is to make Buffy a representation of the Christ of
the New Testament. And yet, she is Christ in the sense that she
is divine and mortal, and will save the world through commitment
to a spiritual path here on earth. Season one is the story of
her making/accepting that commitment.
In Mark, I believe it is, Jesus goes to John to be baptized and
the heavens open etc. etc. I never went to Sunday school, so I'm
not preaching doctrine here, but in terms of reading a text, Jesus
chooses, through an action, to be committed to this path, and
that is the moment when his radiance is revealed. I'm not focused
here on the idea that God is up on high authorizing this, and
I see no analogy whatsoever to the Watchers or Shadowmen. Buffy
will very soon make a choice, through an action that will in fact
be a baptism, to commit to this spiritual path, and when she does
so, she will be revealed as a new and radiant spiritual incarnation.
In that sense, the stories are the same.
But as I have written before, and will explore again as and if
these posts continue, Buffy is actually structured around
a set of spiritual metaphors that are Eastern, particularly Hindu,
oddly enough, rather than Christian. So the writers will certainly
use Christian symbols and imagery to great effect, partly because
of the Vampire genre, and partly because they are a set of recognizably
spiritual images, but it will always be to the effect of a story
that ultimately has a not quite Western slant.
"Her baptism into Slayerness was not a singular event,
but a process. Giles never initiated her. He merely provided impulse,
knowledge. She initiated herself."
Yes and no. It is, obviously, a singular event that takes place
in Prophecy Girl. I'm not there yet. And yes, even then
she initiates herself. As does Jesus in a sense in Mark. And as
is largely the sense of Gnosticism. We are Jesus and we initiate
ourselves.
But as you say, it is also a process. There is certainly a tension
regarding her identity. And the series certainly makes clear that
she does not want to be swallowed up by being "the Slayer."
But I will ultimately disagree that "normal" has anything
to do with it. People think that "being Buffy" means
"being normal." I don't think so. Her "Buffyness"
is her humanity, her compassion, her concern for others. If that's
normal, then fine, but that is certainly not the same normal that
she's whining for in season one. Its compassion that saves her
from the overwhelming weight of The Slayer. Whether normal or
not doesn't seem ultimately to matter. The fact that Buffy feels
for others, that she is self-less. Why compassion? you ask. Because
compassion is the erasure of ego, the rebirth of yourself, while
in your same form, of a creature not bound by it, connected to
others. I would say "compassion" because its the basis
of spirituality, an argument which obviously gets tautological
really fast. But its the overcoming of the material and the self.
Buffy's desire for normalcy, at least here in season one, while
understandable, is a desire for the material and for the self.
I me me mine, as George Harrison once said. And repeated many
many times, if I recall the song correctly.
So I think in season one, normal is not good. What she means by
normal is to shy away from the mysterious power of that spiritual
commitment that she knows awaits her but will change her forever.
And she's frightened, understandably. But now we're getting into
Nightmares, so I'll hold off. My point is, I agree that
Buffy will have to have something to counterbalance the calcified
weight of "slayerness," but I don't agree that its the
normalcy she is repeatedly craving in Season One.
"Should she accept her fate as the Vampire Slayer, Buffy
is essentially faced with two choices: to be "a Slayer named
Buffy", or to be "Buffy the Vampire Slayer." Does
her humanity provide a filter for the spiritual Slayer, or does
it integrate said spirit into a dynamic, cohesive identity? The
title of the series leaves little doubt as to which one she is
supposed to be."
I agree with this. Buffy always finds a way to filter slayerness
through her humanity. Because, as with Christ, her humanity is
the vehicle for her divinity. The divinity itself is not of very
much use. I touched on this in one of the first posts, I think
it was the one on The Witch regarding Willow's being Jewish,
that as metaphor for Buffy's spirit what is being suggested is
the idea of the testament to the spiritual life being the life
lived. Not the prayers, per se, or the goats left at the altar,
but the actual life itself. And I think this is the same thing
as the "engage" approach to spirituality that I mentioned
when talking about I Robot You Jane. Angels up in heaven
aren't spiritual. Hermits aren't spiritual. The spiritual life
can only exist in life, in your interactions with others
and with the world. That is what is going to make Buffy the transcendant
slayer. Her very life becomes a testament to the power of that
commitment and to the presence of divinity in humanity.
I'm not well-read enough to say that this message Buffy is giving
us is original. I expect its not. But it is a powerful one, and
it is beautifully presented and deeply developed in this series.
So I'll repeat myself again again. This really is spiritual literature,
not just a story about a girl growing up.
He [Sid] cannot change. He doesn't age, doesn't waver. As far
as we can tell, his years as a dummy have been spent in a singular
pusuit"
Again, I see Sid as metaphorical of Buffy. His literal position
in the story is interesting. In a sense, if we want to think about
it, he might be using Morgan in a rather contemptuous way. We
really don't know the degree to which Morgan is willingly committed
to Sid's pursuit, and its implied that Morgan wants to be done
with it. But Sid is single minded.
As metaphor for Buffy, however, Sid is the Puppet that Buffy perceives
herself to be, both as child and at this point as Slayer. Do what
Giles tells you. Do what the WC tells you. Have nothing of your
own. But Sid makes clear that he is not the dummy. He is,
as you say, the animus that inhabits it. Just as Buffy
is, and that is what she must realize. The goal of Sid's pursuit
is not death, but release. The spirit is trapped and needs to
be set free, just as Buffy's subconscious power is trapped. In
fact that is what the Master represents. Buffy is holding herself
in, bottling up her most powerful energies, because they frighten
her. But Sid pursues that release even though he knows it will
end his life as he knows it. And his willingness to embrace that
commitment, even unto death, awakens Buffy's compassion.
I think its a really nice episode, a wonderful set of images and
references that just go on and on and on, guiding us towards making
that same choice ourselves.
I'm manwitch, and I approve this message.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Some thoughts on the Christ
analogy and on the Sid metaphor -- Jane, 15:52:26 03/07/04
Sun
I just want to say thanks manwitch, and everyone else in this
thread. I am enjoying these annotated episode discussions a lot.
With all this in mind, I am looking at this episode with a much
broader viewpoint than when I first saw it. These annotated versions
really give every episode a depth that is not necessarily apparent
on casual viewing. What I love so much about Buffy and Angel is
the wonderful layers; like an onion you peel away one layer to
find more. Thanks,all, for adding to the onion!
[> "Sunnydale has touched, and felt, for the last time."
-- Isabel, 20:23:56 03/05/04 Fri
I have always loved the Puppet Show. I think it's my favorite
Season 1 episode. Your post just opened my eyes to new things
to like about the episode.
I can't really add to the Kaboom of your post, but I have a couple
thoughts to get out and I hope they're not too rambly to follow.
I've been lurking in the background long enough.
No. 1) You did not mention the new school Fuhrer, Principal Snyder?
Yes, he didn't fit with Buffy's spiritual journey. But he does
fit with the Puppet theme.
Snyder may not ultimately succeed in expelling Buffy (that's above
his power), but he knows she's trouble to his limited authority.
With that authority he can make Giles run the Talent Show. He
makes Buffy and her friends perform for the audience. He's the
petty puppet master, making them dance to his tunes. (Take out
the Trick-or-Treaters, Provide refreshments, Teach a class for
free, Pass who I say...) He speaks for the school, "It was
a gang on PCB." "The sewers backed up." Then at
the end of Season 2 we find out that Snyder is only a puppet in
the hands of the Mayor. And he feels his strings being tugged.
Plus, that first scene was wonderful. "Principal Flutie thought
that way, but he was eaten." Foreshadowing. :-) And at the
end, the Oedipus scene always makes me laugh. Plus, "I don't
get it. What is it? Avant Garde?" *snort*
No. 2) Cordelia's song does have something to do with Buffy's
journey. The Greatest Love of All has always struck me
as a narcissistic song. Perhaps it's the Whitney Houston diva
aspect to it. It's all "Look at me! I love myself and my
loving myself will help others to love themselves." Perhaps
I've misinterpreted it, text analysis is not my strong point.
The lyrics of the song start out: (And I apologize, I can't get
them off the web. My dial up is being wonky tonight, this is from
memory.) "I believe the children are our future, let them
lead the way, mmmm mmm mm mmm, give them a sense of pride, to
make it easier, mm mmm mm mm mmm, blah, blah, blah..." Ok-
Who is she singing to? Giles sitting alone in the audience with
Buffy, Xander and Willow. And it will be Buffy (with Willow and
Xander) leading the way into the future. This may be way simplistic,
but with 20/20 hindsight, I thought that was cool.
That song is also perfect for Cordy herself. The narcissism is
a total reflection of her Queen C persona that we find out in
Out of Mind, Out of Sight is partly an act. Plus, when
she moves to L.A., she gets to grow beyond the narcissism and
her best actions are motivated by love not of herself, but of
other people. (Becoming a demon to survive the visions, her end-ending,
and her leaving this plane with Skip was because she wanted to
help people more than she wanted to stay. She had no idea she
was becoming a pawn. (If you consider Skip a reliable narrator
on that point. I think he's dubious.))
I loved your parallel of Morgan with Ford. I never thought of
them that way. Morgan made the best of his time and choices. I
think I like him a bit better now.
[> [> Cordelia -- manwitch, 04:00:32 03/06/04
Sat
Yes, I glossed over a lot in this post. Cordelia particularly.
This episode really helps to establish her metaphorical role in
the story. She represents Buffy without the spiritual potential
or spiritual committment. The first episode shows the degree to
which their backgrounds are similar, but the difference is that
Buffy has compassion, she actually notices other people and cares
about them. Cordelia does not.
And the song certainly reflects Cordelias totally self-centered
focus. And yet, Buffy has been self-centered throughout this season,
too. Wanting her own life, wanting normal, wanting boyfriends,
wanting to be a cheerleader, wanting moral absolutes, etc. So
the song does reflect towards Buffy as well. When Cordelia fears
that by exhibiting her talent on stage she could be be "like
Buffy," she is both expressing a truth about herself and
about Buffy. Buffy's fear at this point is exactly that if she
attempts to express her true "talent" on the stage of
life she will fail, not be up to the task, or lose out on everything
else. Cordelia's line reflects on Cordelia by showing that she
has no interest in being Buffy, no interest in having a spiritual
commitment. And yet it also helps to point out why, when she does
acquire a spiritual commitment later on Angel, why she become
very much like Buffy, even as far as being a warrior and the object
of Angel's affection. Its the commitment that attracts Angel.
I don't know about the parallel of Morgan and Ford. That was Random
who posted that. Obviously they can be compared. But what really
was Morgan doing? How did he get mixed up with Sid? Was he the
hitman? Sid clearly didn't need it. A lot of confusion there.
And Morgan ultimately died without leaving much of hole in Sid
or anybody else. To a degree I think the character was simply
functional, not really an exploration of anything.
Snyder definitely fits in with Buffy's spiritual journey. I just
haven't dealt with him yet. I think you are right on the mark
with him.
[> [> [> Oops- -- Isabel, 11:24:08 03/06/04
Sat
Sorry about mixing up who paralleled Morgan and Ford, Random and
Manwitch. When I start reading a thread I don't always keep good
track of who said what.
I always pictured Morgan stumbling across Sid in a shop or someplace
while Sid was on the trail of the demon. Morgan, being very intelligent,
probably knew that something was wrong with Sunnydale and agreed
to help Sid. Yes, Morgan served a function, to be the red herring
until we found out that Sid was 'alive', and then he was disposed
of.
Perhaps Ford was just coincidentally similar or he could have
been designed to be a comment on the differing choices desperate
people can make. The main point of Ford was to foreshadow to Buffy
that just because someone loves you and you love them, they can
still decide to kill you. But that's a point for 2nd Season Buffy.
[> [> Re: "Sunnydale has touched, and felt, for
the last time." -- angel's nibblet, 00:14:33 03/07/04
Sun
That song is also perfect for Cordy herself.
and it's also the same song she sang for Lorne in season 4(Can't
quite remember which episode) where he gets the reading of "something's
coming". I really loved how they put that in, little extra
for us long-time viewers :-D
[> [> [> it was in "slouching toward bethlehem"
-- anom, 21:41:07 03/09/04 Tue
Cordelia sings these lines: "Because the greatest love of
all is happening to me. I've found the greatest love of all inside
of me. The greatest love of all is easy to achieve. Learning to
love yourself--" (at this point Lorne can't take it any more--not
the singing, the reading--& cuts her off).
I have to wonder, who's really singing this--Cordelia, still without
her memory, or Jasmine, controlling Cordelia even before she's
physically conceived? But the latter possibility implies Jasmine
is faking Cordelia's amnesia, & why would she do that? Maybe Cordelia
is singing about Jasmine, feeling her as "the greatest
love of all inside of me"? In later episodes, we'll see Jasmine
control her followers, who feel her presence as a great love.
Cordelia may be feeling that presence (Jasmine = the child who
is our future?) but not be able to recognize what it is.
Or maybe it's just meant to echo the song's use in "Puppet
Show"...like you said, nib, a "little extra for us long-time
viewers."
[> [> "The Greatest Love of All" -- Sofdog,
13:31:20 03/08/04 Mon
First Isabel, LOL on that song quote. That was hilarious. Now,
on the subject of the song "The Greatest Love of All":
I don't get what's narcissistic about it. This song is very familiar
not only because Whitney Houston had such a hit with it in the
'80s, but also because the original recording by George Benson
(from the film soundtrack "The Greatest") was so freakin'
popular in the '70s. My mom played every single day when I was
five.
The song seems to me to be very existential, which would make
it a perfect theme for Cordelia "I-don't-wish-I-act"
Chase. What's self-centered about developing a strong sense of
self. The lyrics point to teaching children to move beyond hero-worship,
to remember to experience their own lives fully. Which,at least
from a fantastical perspective, is the whole point of hero-worship:
to gain inspiration to follow your own path.
(Lyrics enclosed for your mmm, mmm reference)
Written by Michael Masser and Linda Creed
"I believe that children are our future
Teach them well and let them lead the way
Show them all the beauty they possess inside
Give them a sense of pride to make it easier
Let the children's laughter remind us how we used to be
Everybody's searching for a hero
People need someone to look up to
I never found anyone who fulfilled my need
A lonely place to be and so I learned to depend on me
I decided long ago never to walk in anyone's shadow
If I fail, if I succeed at least I'll live as I believe
No matter what they take from me, they can't take away my dignity
Because the greatest love of all is happening to me
I found the greatest love of all inside of me
The greatest love of all is easy to achieve
Learning to love yourself, it is the greatest love of all
I believe that children are our future
Teach them well and let them lead the way
Show them all the beauty they possess inside
Give them a sense of pride to make it easier
Let the children's laughter remind us of how we used to be
I decided long ago never to walk in anyone's shadow
If I fail, if I succeed at least I'll live as I believe
No matter what they take from me, they can't take away my dignity
Because the greatest love of all is happening to me
I found the greatest love of all inside of me
The greatest love of all is easy to achieve
Learning to love yourself, it is the greatest love of all
And if by chance that special place that you've been dreaming
of
Leads you to a lonely place, find your strength in love"
[> The Talent Show -- Lunasea, 09:59:58 03/07/04
Sun
Your analysis almost makes me want to go back and watch this episode
which for some reason never really hit me like others. Maybe it
was the lack of talent in the episode.
The setting for this episode is a talent show. It is our talents
that make us individuals. It is these talents that we come to
define ourselves and others by. It is our perceived (often misperceived)
lack of talent that causes our self-esteem problems. Cordy sings
about self-esteem, but her singing in a word sucks. She has no
real talent when it comes to what she is displaying. We learn
in later seasons that this self-esteem is really a facade. It
is as forced as her singing.
A talent show is an opportunity for us to show off our particular
talents to the student body (the collective psyche). Giles, mind,
is put in charge of this. Our mind does make the decisions about
what we express and what doesn't make it on stage. All life is
a stage, but there is a heck of a lot that goes on behind the
curtains. Because of this, Giles gets in trouble and almost loses
his particular talent.
It isn't a talent show, but a puppet show. What pulls the strings
and makes us into puppets are those talents. Talent and puppet
become synonyms. Willow, Xander and Buffy don't believe they have
a talent. Buffy can't slay on stage, though she does backstage
to save Giles and the show. This belief that they don't have a
talent in some ways frees them to explore life more than Cordelia
and find out who they are. They are lost now, but they aren't
total puppets, yet. They have to participate in the show, but
they don't try to force some talent they know they don't have.
Instead they resort to a dramatic reading.
The three individuals who don't believe themselves to have a talent
at this point are the ones not controlled by any talent. They
try to do this reading, but do it as badly as Cordy's singing.
It isn't them, but at least they don't mistake this for an actual
talent. This belief that they don't have a talent will actually
be what controls them. It will cause Willow to become addicted
to magic and won't be resolved in Xander until "The Replacement"
(a dummy is a replacement human).
The dummy who isn't either dumb or a puppet. In completing his
task he is freed. The task that lies before every human is finding
out what our talents are and expressing those. Those talents make
puppets of us, but in that we transcend our forms. We becomes
something more than flesh. The demon wants to become flesh. Sid
wants to not be trapped as wood. He still has his desires that
would be tied to flesh, but he can't act on them. Instead he is
forced to transcend those. In the end he transcends everything
and presumably goes to heaven.
Buffy is the Slayer Spirit made flesh. In the end, by embracing
this, she will transcend this, but still remain Buffy the Vampire
Slayer. She will not have to give up her form. She will not have
to die. At this point in the story, I don't think Joss was thinking
in that direction. Death would be her gift. By embracing her talent,
namely not killing demons, but loving others, she would be freed
from her task. The cross would be lifted from her.
This is something that gets left out in the discussions about
Jesus. Having to preach to others isn't really a fun life. He
was harassed where ever he went and even when he was tired had
to keep going. By embracing his talent and being willing to die,
he was freed from what he was doing. It was a horrible way to
die, but death is the only way out of this existence. In heaven
do you think Buffy thought "that really hurt"? She felt
complete.
I'm starting to ramble, so I'll stop.
Brotherhood of Man -- Claudia, 14:17:25
03/05/04 Fri
While reading Tchaikovskyís review of ìDestinyî(5.08),
I noticed that it discussed a lot about Angel and Spikeís
relationship as ëbrothersí ñ whether they were
in their souled or unsouled states. Has anyone noticed anything
about at least two of the relationships featured on the show,
this season? There seemed to be a great deal of focus upon brotherhood.
In Angel and Spikeís relationship, you have two vampires
who had the potential to be close ëbrothersí back
when they first met in 1880 . . . and that potential was basically
fragmented by their feelings for one female, namely Drusilla.
Spike . . . or should I say, William, saw the female vampire as
his destiny ñ someone to love and worship. Especially after
the disappointment of both Cecily and his mother, Anne. Iím
not sure what Angelus saw in Drusilla. Something or someone to
completely control, perhaps? He never had any control in his relationship
with his father ñ until the latterís death. Despite
his rejection of the Master, Darla managed to more or less control
in her usual subtle way ñ making him believe that he was
in control. And perhaps, deep down, Angelus knew it. Perhaps that
is why he decided to betray William with Drusilla ñ make
the latter realize that he was in control and that Williamís
idea of Drusilla being his destiny was nothing more than an illusion.
Thus, began an antagonistic relationship that has lasted over
120 years. And yet, since Spikeís appearance in Los Angeles,
the two have been slowly forming a bond, again. After their fight
over the Cup of Destiny, the pair have been slowly realizing that
perhaps . . . they need each other in their fight against Evil.
Besides, with the Fang Gang slowly breaking up, perhaps Spike
is the only person that Angel can truly depend upon.
In contrast to Angel and Spikeís relationship, we have
just witnessed the destruction of Gunn and Wesleyís friendship.
Itís interesting that some 3 years ago, they were close
friends and co-owners of a detective business with Cordelia. Iím
sure that we all remember the secret handshakes, the ìI
got your backî declarations and the way they had fought
together against demons. But in the end the relationship was destroyed
by a woman ñ in other words, Winifred Burkle. Iím
not saying that she is to blame for their past or present estrangement.
But their views of Fred, along with their personal demons ñ
Gunnís insecurity (which, was not helped by Fredís
comment about him being the ìmuscleî) and Wesí
whore/Madonna view of women brought about a complete destruction
of their relationship. Fred was one of the reasons for their first
break-up (along with Connor). Yet, this relationship was resurrected
when both men finally decided to forgo a romantic pursuit of said
female. And in the end, she was the center of their second break-up.
So, whereas you have one relationship forming a brotherly bond
(Angel and Spike), you have a former bond (Gunn and Wes) now in
complete ruins. And this all happened during S5.
Replies:
[> Re: Brotherhood of Man -- CW, 06:47:48 03/06/04
Sat
I think you've made some interesting points. But, I might add
that Angel has always acted like an older brother to Spike. The
dominance thing you mentioned is exactly what happens between
brothers, although usually it's not as extreme as we saw between
the two vampires. It also is another reason for the dramatic change
in Spike's behavior from when he was first turned. First his mother
turned on him, then he found out that in the world of vampires
there are no equals only the strong and the weak. Once he admitted
Angel's dominance he let out his need to show his worth in other
was. He turned himself in to the somewhat comical 'baddest of
the bad,' taking out his frustration of being 'second class' on
the world of humans. When Angel got his soul back, Spike viewed
him as a sell out, further straining the relationship. You've
already given a good account of how and why the brothers are growing
closer again.
Wes' recent violent streak is even more scary when one takes into
account what you've said about brotherhood. If you're right Wes
is losing his grip on everything he cares for in this world. With
Illyria moving into his life, it doesn't bode well.
Free, free, free at last, maybe. -- Buffalo,
15:24:43 03/05/04 Fri
As has been noted with quotes from 12th Night, Illyria was a place.
Fred's Albanian, now. I did the Google thing to find the "hidden
meanings." Not that different than searching for a secret
decoder ring in Crackerback Jox, but one of the rewarding things
in Jossverse.
"The Albanian transliteration "i lir i>" translates
to a free person. The name Albania is derived from the name of
an Illyrian tribe called the Arber, or Arberesh and later Albanoi..."
I think "free person" is significant. It's certainly
pertinent to the issue of free will.
Both Illyria and Fred sought freedom from the stifling past that
they knew. Death and Texas, doncha know. Now Illyria seems to
be ready to find some level of freedom in the Fred shell. I can
add the hopeful speculation that Fred lives so long as Illyria
has Fred's memories...maybe. Fredthought might become a Fredbot
for all intents and purposes, OR Fred still may have will in those
thoughts that now appear as a trick by Illyria. Wes seems ready
to stand by whatever smidgin of Fred that may be left.
BTW, the history of the Illyrians is worth the investigation.
Fighting off the Celtics, later fighting Philip and then conquered
by Alexander, they were older ones if not the Old Ones.
Dualism, Materialism, and the First Real Death
-- Grod, 15:54:26 03/05/04 Fri
Freds death, I'm kicking myself for only catching the tail end
of Shells, is the first example in the Buffyverse of a death as
Materialist coneive it, or at least it almost was. Before Fred
death in the Buffyverse has been has been in the Dualist (though
some have argued there are really three substances in the Buffyverse)
traditiion of the soul/mind substance seperating at death from
the brain/body substance; Fred however simply died. Its one thing
to accept this as a fact of life but in a fictional world of immortals
and heavens it seems awfully cruel that poor sweet Fred should
be the one creature in all the Buffyverse to simply cease to be.
The preservation of her body and memories seems a cold comfort.
But it also opens the door to the idea that Fred has the potential
to be just as alive as any of the souless charcters in the Buffyverse.
Fred's memories are still recorded in her own living brain, MEs
one mercy. From the Dualsit standpoint her soul is gone and therefore
she is no more, but from the Materialist viewpoint she exists
as much as a sleeping or comatose person.
I'm interesested in seeing this question of identity work itself
out. I wonder if the scene of Fred driving away from home at the
end of the episode was just backstory or the Old One having a
flashback.
Replies:
[> Very interesting! -- LittleBit, 16:17:15 03/06/04
Sat
I need to do a lot more reading before I can make an informed
reply to this, but I wanted you to know that this post really
got me thinking.
Thanks.
The Deaths of Thousands vs. One Soul Morality
-- Charles Phipps,
17:39:38 03/05/04 Fri
Oddly "Shells" has brought up a very interesting concept
that will be interesting to examine in the form of the value of
a soul vs. a person's material life.
As a popular part of Jesus's sermonizing there is the fact that
he valued eternity far more than one's existence on the material
world (or the happiness thereof). In the Buffyverse there is a
dozen or more Heavenly dimensions for the dead confirmed along
with Hells for the Wicked.
Thus Rabbi Joshua Ben Josef's point about existence on Earth being
only a small part of our existence is very relevant. Angel chose
to save thousands of lives by letting Fred die, thus doing what
Fred would want her to do and in a way letting her save thousands
of lives in her own way ala Spike's 'sacrafice' at the cost of
her own existence (or Darth Vaders).
But the destruction of her soul makes an entirely different case
that the relatively insignificant period of time a few thousand
people's remainder of their lives is vs. the eternal existence
of one being.
Oddly in retrospect Angel's choice may have been the wrong one.
Interesting to imagine what higher powers think of life when its
a matter of transferance than 'death'
Replies:
[> Re: The Deaths of Thousands vs. One Soul Morality
-- Corwin of Amber, 21:32:11 03/05/04 Fri
Good point. If you believe in an eternal soul, then "death"
is just moving from one state of existence to another, akin to
water changing from a liquid to vapor. But if Fred's eternel soul
was somehow consumed in the process...it's the blinking out of
a light that has been in existence since the begining. Whereas
the people killed would just have been moving into a state of
being that they would have attained eventually anyways.
[> I am reminded of Hume... -- Random, 21:57:56 03/05/04
Fri
"The damnation of one man is an infinitely greater evil in
the universe, than the subversion of a thousand millions of kingdoms"
It's from his "Essay on the Immortality of the Soul"
(definitely a recommended read) and while he's speaking of eternal
torment, I think it's interesting to modify it as "The annihilation
of a single soul is..." It makes the same point, really.
As you note, the dissolution of a single immortal soul could be
seen in some moral interpretative schemes as far worse than the
mere deaths of thousands. To cause a transition of a being from
one state to the next pales in comparison to ending the very existence
of a being.
However...those same thousands would never have a chance to be
redeemed if they were to go to an afterlife of eternal torment.
This touches on the point Hume was originally making. The metaphysics
of the Buffyverse are not clear, but there are many reasons to
see it as a polarized universe, and if there is a heaven as an
afterlife (not merely a separate dimension, but an actual destination
for souls), then surely there is a Hell. Thus any who perished
in saving Fred's soul who weren't in a state of grace would be
damned to an evil that could easily be seen as equal to obliteration.
Spike once said that there's always a price. He forgot the crucial
element, though...there's always someone who must pay the price.
That's where the true relevance of the price is. Who pays? Who
is innocent? And who decides?
[> [> Re: I am reminded of Hume... -- Rufus, 21:17:27
03/06/04 Sat
The metaphysics of the Buffyverse are not clear, but there
are many reasons to see it as a polarized universe, and if there
is a heaven as an afterlife (not merely a separate dimension,
but an actual destination for souls), then surely there is a Hell.
No shit! But who expects clarity out of a guy who says that the
soul is amorphous? Buffy didn't say she was in heaven but
the sum of her afterlife experience made her believe that where
she was could be best described as heaven. Then there is Darla
from Season four Angel who says....
DARLA: The Powers have sent me to give you a message.
CONNOR: You can't be my mother.
DARLA: I have her memories, her feelings. Isn't that what makes
a person who they are?
The soul in the Buffy/Angelverse may make a person lean towards
a star that is good or evil but there is still room for the contribution
of the persons memories and personality. If the soul has no form
can it be immortal, and what does that mean of Fred's memories
which helped shape the person she became? Memories are experience,
soul is a quality that may or may not lead one to a good star
can experience/memory impact Illyria in a way we have only thought
the soul capable of? Just think, Fred as entropy...;)
[> [> [> Why not? -- Arethusa, 06:19:41 03/07/04
Sun
IN RL, aren't our decisions regarding right and wrong based on
our memories? Morality develops over time, and is taught to us
by our parents, through their words and example. Very young children
think hitting someone is funny and they don't even realize it
hurts until it happens to them. They have little empathy and don't
see other people as individuals with their own needs and feelings.
In that sense Illyria is like a baby. But over time, as the children
develop memories of what pain feels like and how happy they are
when they're with the people who care for them, they become connected
to others. How appropriate it would be if Fred's memories set
off the Butterfly Affect within Illyria.
[> [> One thing I haven't seen discussed (spoilers Shells)
-- Lunasea, 08:03:35 03/07/04 Sun
Though I haven't read all that much about the last two episodes,
one thing I haven't seen mentioned is the gamble that Angel was
taking in not dragging Illyria back to the Deeper Wells. Yes,
thousands would have died in agony, but and this is a big but,
we are dealing with an Old One. How does he know that he can stop
her? They really weren't able to in Shells. It is only time and
her own despair that makes her not a threat.
All Angel saw was Fred's life or thousands. He saw the question
being whether to save Fred or not. He didn't worry about the threat
that Illyria would then be. Wesley might have done the ritual,
not just to save Fred, but to contain the threat, a threat that
wasn't about thousands but millions.
Another wrinkle, any of those thousands that died not in a state
of grace would have been damned, but any of those that would have
later fallen from that state would have been saved by an earlier
death. This not only applies to Illyria being dragged back, but
any that she would have killed. As time goes on, more people tend
to fall from grace than be restored to it.
There are just too many ifs. Makes my head hurt.
[> [> [> Re: One thing (spoilers Hole in/Shells) Buffy
S3 -- Age, 12:20:20 03/07/04 Sun
Perhaps within the idea of Illyria clawing its way into others,
there was implicit the notion that many Illyrias might be created;
but this is not mentioned. As you say, it seems that it was the
death of Fred versus the death of many. And yes, one would expect
an Old One to be an invincible demon bent on the destruction of
humankind like the mayor ascending to pure demon; and one would
think that if we discount the production of alot of Illyrias,
a hard decision would have to be made to get Illyria back into
the Well because free of it, countless more would be destroyed,
if not all. But Angel's choice is not strictly a moral and metaphysical
action, but a symbolic one. By not doing what Wolfram and Hart
would do, ie., have others die instead of Fred, Illyria, the symbolic
representation of the Angel Team, is created in a certain way
to show a) that the Angel Team have finally resisted the pull
of a certain culture and are fighting against that culture b)
that they have turned the corner and are now out of that culture's
influence. The writers knew how Illyria would turn out because
they made her symbolism tied to the actions of the Angel Team.
The writers were making Angel's choice in light of their own hindsight(and
now ours), knowing full well that Illyria would turn out to be
the lost cog of a machine and not the fiercest damn invincible
demon that ever walked the earth, scoffing at time's work, assembling
another army of evil and wiping humanity off the face of the earth.
I mean, the greatest of Illyria's competition was already buried
in the Well, she could easily have reigned again on earth.
The difference is that evil isn't being portrayed strictly as
a force unto itself as Illyria would have symbolized had she been
the traditional fierce warrior Queen. Evil is being portrayed
as the machine network that is created when people allow themselves
to become part of a culture to keep themselves safe or feel good
or profit at any cost for themselves(WOLF, RAM and HART, herd
instinct and wolf pack combined, housed in the crystal tower,
Eden) at the expense of some other unknown human being. This sort
of evil doesn't foster independence, but quite the opposite. Illyria
folds immediately because her network is gone.
I don't think it ever occurred to Angel that in allowing Illyria
to manifest in Fred he'd be unleashing an Old One on the world.
I think he saw it simply in terms of not putting a loved one's
life above the lives of many. In this way, the writers are suggesting
that suffering comes to us all, and we can't just parcel it off
to some unknown other and remain human. Had Angel actually thought
about the implications of allowing Illyria to manifest and had
decided to put her back in the Well at the expense of a few thousand
in comparison with the rest of humanity, this would not have worked
for the theme as there would always be a stink about it of whether
this was really done to save all of humanity or whether this was
a rationalization of a selfish act to get Fred back at the expense
of unknown others. Perhaps the writers, by allowing Illyria to
manifest, and certainly by having her quite different from what
we would imagine, are saying that we don't give up, we don't compromise
by killing thousands to save millions when there's still a chance
of an unknown factor, an element of chaos which will render our
information about the situation useless(Fred is dying, others
will be killed to save her; but what Illyria might do is an unknown
or an unforseen weakness created by the manifestation in Fred
may make her more vulnerable than imagined or she may just turn
out to be a cog in a machine.) It is after all the compromises
having to be made at Wolfram and Hart that have been drawing the
Angel Team into its amoral machine. We don't give up hope of finding
a human solution to a problem because the alternative is to find
an expedient one, a Wolf Ram and Hart one. And in the expedient
we lose our humanity and then what are we fighting for?
Age.
[> [> [> [> Consequences -- Arethusa, 13:23:51
03/07/04 Sun
The difference is that evil isn't being portrayed strictly
as a force unto itself as Illyria would have symbolized had she
been the traditional fierce warrior Queen. Evil is being portrayed
as the machine network that is created when people allow themselves
to become part of a culture to keep themselves safe or feel good
or profit at any cost for themselves(WOLF, RAM and HART, herd
instinct and wolf pack combined, housed in the crystal tower,
Eden) at the expense of some other unknown human being.
This is one of my favorite concepts in the show. Evil is not a
disembodied force, it is the result of bad and dishonest choices
which lead to negative consequences, which lead to further negative
consequeces. The chaos theory, once again. (Would this be "concussively
timed intervals" like the action of the sarcophagus's gem?)
So do positive choices send out positive ripples, bread upon the
water, like when Buffy shared power with the scoobies and the
potentials. Perhaps it deflects the expansion of chaos, gives
us space to find hope and joy and enjoy the suprises in life.
[> [> [> [> Re: One thing (spoilers Hole in/Shells)
Buffy S3 -- Rufus, 16:41:42 03/07/04 Sun
Perhaps within the idea of Illyria clawing its way into others,
there was implicit the notion that many Illyrias might be created;
but this is not mentioned. As you say, it seems that it was the
death of Fred versus the death of many.
Drogyn was pretty clear what would happen should Illyria be dragged
from it's shell.....from A Hole in the World...
DROGYN: But I didn't know it was free. If we bring the sarcophagus
back to the well, it will draw Illyria out of your friend...and
into every single person between here and there. It will become
the mystical equivalent of airborne. It will claw into every soul
in its path to keep from being trapped. Entire citiesótens
maybe hundreds of thousands will die in agony if you save her.
My thinking has it that once the spell is cast to bring Illyria
back to the Well, Illyria can cause death and agony but eventually
it can't stop from being brought back from where it was to where
it belongs (the Well).
I don't think it ever occurred to Angel that in allowing Illyria
to manifest in Fred he'd be unleashing an Old One on the world.
I think he saw it simply in terms of not putting a loved one's
life above the lives of many.
I think that Angel was taking it a step at a time. Don't allow
Illyria to become airborne and then see what can be done with
the one outbreak. Illyria isn't quite the Old One it once was
and that opens up a whole bunch of possible outcomes.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: I see (spoilers Hole in/Shells)
-- Age, 01:28:01 03/08/04 Mon
Thanks for the clarification. I was thinking in terms of the airborne
essence being a virus infecting each host as it is pulled towards
the Well, and it is the infection which brings the agonizing death.
I extended the idea to suppose that some of the virus/essence
might still be clinging to the host, enabling a mini Illyria to
be created, the host's soul incinerated. On second thought however,
this would not cure Fred as one could argue that an amount of
the essence could then still cling to her, resulting in her death
and the possible creation of an Illyria anyway. For my virus analogy
to work Fred's would have to be a special case; hers would be
the cure that left no essence in her. Still in some way hers is
a special case anyway with the essence not clawing into her (soul?)
as it felt drawn towards the Well(I'm assuming before Fred is
dead and her soul incinerated.) What does clawing into the soul
mean? And does this bring the soul's destruction, hence then incineration
versus shredding, with annihilation in both cases? Or is the word
'soul' used in this context to mean person?
From the text one can pretty well assume that the choice is between
the death of Fred or the death of thousands of others as the essence
is returned to the Well. And I'm going to leave it at that.
Thanks for the clarification.
Age.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I see (spoilers Hole
in/Shells) -- Rufus, 17:29:45 03/08/04 Mon
From the text one can pretty well assume that the choice is
between the death of Fred or the death of thousands of others
as the essence is returned to the Well. And I'm going to leave
it at that.
It's the spell that made the difference in how I thought of the
problem. Angel could only think one problem at a time and the
problem that got priority was the immediate potential for the
death of hundreds of thousands of people between LA and the Deeper
Well. Those deaths were the priority then he could switch gears
and figure out what to do with Illyria in the shell. It also reminded
me of when the security guard spoke of closing "Pandora's
Box"...Fred is a new type of box/shell that if opened would
bring suffering to many.
From Destiny..
ANGEL: OK, seal off the building. Nobody in or out till we
know what we got here. Spell, virus, mass hysteria.
SECURITY GUARD: Yes, sir. All channels, we have a code black.
Affirmative. We are closing Pandora's Box.
I still remember that reference to Ship of Fools and the description
of the Bosch painting...
Ship
of Fools
In The Ship of Fools " Bosch is imagining that the whole
of mankind is voyaging through the seas of time on a ship, a small
ship, that is representative of humanity. Sadly, every one of
the representatives is a fool. This is how we live, says Bosch--we
eat, dring, flirt, cheat, play silly games, pursue unattainable
objectives. Meanwhile our ship drifts aimlessly and we never reach
the harbour. The fools are not the irreligious, since promiment
among them are a monk and a nun, but they are all those who live
``in stupidity''. Bosch laughs, and it is sad laugh. Which one
of us does not sail in the wretched discomfort of the ship of
human folly? Eccentric and secret genius that he was, Bosch not
only moved the heart but scandalized it into full awareness. The
sinister and monstrous things that he brought forth are the hidden
creatures of our inward self-love: he externalizes the ugliness
within, and so his misshapen demons have an effect beyond curiosity.
We feel a hateful kinship with them. "The Ship of Fools"
is not about other people, it is about us.
Look at what has happened to our characters, Wesley is again the
dark man he was reduced to pre-mind wipe. Gunn has indirectly
caused the death of Fred, all for knowledge and confidence that
comes with it. Instead he like the character in Flowers for Algernon,
Gunn loses some of his heart leaving him open to make a choice
that the Gunn without the upgrade would never have considered.
All the characters have been fools as they search for something
more in Wolfram & Hart while forgetting where they are. I see
the end of Shells as that pause where the characters can reflect
on what they have lost and what it will take to redeem themselves.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I see (spoilers
Hole in/Shells) -- skeeve, 15:27:28 03/09/04 Tue
Had they known to do it, Fred's soul could certainly have been
saved.
Getting Fred's soul out of her body before Illyria could eat it
would not have been hard.
They know at least two soul extraction techniques:
Death (the standard sort)
Vamping
The right choice isn't obvious.
The standard technique would save Fred's soul and almost certainly
kill Illyria, but would make it unlikely that they would get Fred
back.
Vamping would also keep Fred's soul from Illyria.
If Illyria needed a soul to live, so much the better.
Supposing the result was an Illyria-less vampire, Fred could be
resouled and turned back into a human.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I see (spoilers
Hole in/Shells) -- Korina, 11:56:36 03/11/04 Thu
Um, I may be mis-remembering, but I don't think anyone really
knew about Fred's soul being consumed until *after* the fact.
If so, it wouldn't even have occured to them that Fred's soul
was in danger.
If they had known, how do you think it would've influenced Angel's
decision?
Korina, lurker
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> You're
right it was later that the Doc told Gunn....from Shells --
Rufus, 16:47:21 03/11/04 Thu
I did up a transcript with just dialogue over at the Trollop Board,
here's a link...here.
The relevant information was given to Gunn when he went to the
Doc that did the upgrade..
Gunn: How do we bring Fred back? How!
Doc: You can't.
Gunn: I don't believe that, you know a way, you have to.
Doc: Get the sarcophagus released from customs in exchange for
making your cerebral alterations permanent. That was the bargain,
and the extent of my involvement.
Gunn: Then take it back, everything you put in my head, the law,
all the knowledge. Take it back, everything. Take more, leave
me a vegetable. I don't care, just bring her back...please, bring
her back.
Doc: There's nothing left to bring back. Miss Burkle's soul
was consumed by the fires of resurrection. Everything she was
is gone. Forever. For better or worse, you made a deal Mr.
Gunn, I suggest you learn to live with it.
I think there is room to argue that point with the Doc but that's
for later......;)
[> Re: Thousands vs. One Spoilers Hole in, Shells, Buffy
S5. -- Age, 23:59:21 03/06/04 Sat
Is it possible that the same process of soul annihilation would
happen to the thousands as Illyria's essence tries to manifest
in them all? Is this annihilation of one soul versus transference
of many, or, strictly annihilation in both cases?
Would a soul that can be destroyed be a device describing a mortal
person, rather than an eternal being? Buffy's death at the end
of season five and her resurrection were metaphorical devices
to depict the end of adolescence, and the young adult, faced with
the uncertainty and complexity of the adult world, looking back
at what would seem to be a simpler time of childhood and thinking
that it would be akin to her having been ripped from heaven. The
supernatural was actually used as literary device to describe
the passage of someone physically alive.
Fred is killed mystically, and so there is a possibility of her
being returned to her body; the destruction of her soul denies
this, effectively changing her death to match a natural one as
the infection metaphor implies, one in which the soul cannot be
returned by magic (this is the mortality theme denying the illusion
that you can be safe if you subscribe to a culture of profit for
self at the expense of another as symbolized by Wolfram and Hart.)
I see her death, the hollowing out, the absorption, the incineration
as a metaphor for being absorbed into a certain cultural machine.
It's not that Fred herself is absorbed into a cultural machine
for profit, but her mode of death is a metaphor for it. Fred herself
remains a human being with a personal identity who is actually
physically killed by a culture of profit for self at the cost
to someone else; but symbolically Fred is the human person you
would lose if you subscribe to such a culture. Illyria, on the
other hand, is part of a cultural machine, a war culture, that
has been freed to begin building a personal identity for herself.
She would be the result if Fred had actually been absorbed into
a culture, lost her personal identity, but then freed of that
culture, had certain memories, but did not view them as herself.
The Old Ones represent in their constant warring the consequence
of the entrenchment of a culture in which we try to get as much
profit for ourselves at the expense of the other. Human society
is then at war with itself as one faction tries to get the profit
at the expense of another.
Illyria in her present state may describe to some extent the Angel
Team which having faced what Wolfram and Hart has been doing to
them through the loss of Fred, having turned the corner, so to
speak, are freed of its cultural influence.(Illyria, if we take
the astronaut imagery of the last couple of episodes, her lifeline
cut to her culture, is adrift in the void of space, describing
perhaps her state of identity.)
In your post, you are getting at the futility of gaining the world
but at the expense of the soul. Whedon is doing a similar thing
here, but he's saying what is the point of subscribing to a culture
for profit at any cost to others when in fact doing that destroys
the very human beings that would be the recipients of the profit.
What's the point of the culture if it denies the human, reducing
us all to parts in a machine for profit? (In regards to the metaphysics
of an after life, I think that the fifth season Buffy episode
in which Joyce dies shows that from the limited human viewpoint
of the survivors the person who dies seems to cease to exist,
with April the robot's 'death' defining Joyce's. That isn't to
say that Whedon is stating there is no after life, but through
his characters he may simply be saying he doesn't know or he's
not going to make an assertion for the series either way; it's
up to the individual to decide for himself. But certainly Whedon
is employing the supernatural in a metaphorical way to depict
what he thinks about life.)
Age.
[> I pointed out something similar in respect to Why We
Fight -- Lunasea, 07:32:53 03/07/04 Sun
If vamping someone damns his soul, can this action be outweighed
by the mortal lives of any number of people?
Update -- Drizzt,
18:38:02 03/05/04 Fri
Hmmm...been allmost 3 1/2 years since I decided on my goal. Done
400 hours practice on telekinesis in that time. I need to get
hardcore and practice consistently; lukily I have SSDI so I have
a lot of free time to do that practice.
Going to Reno for a couple of months, then back to Oregon.
My goal is as I originally wanted except the time I want to get
to Sunnydayle is chronologically at the beginning of Normal Again.
Next update in December of this year.
Replies:
[> Good to hear from you! -- LittleBit,
19:31:01 03/05/04 Fri
Keep in touch!
[> [> Re: Hey, Drizzt , Keep on Truckin' -- Brian,
21:45:56 03/05/04 Fri
[> Hey Drizzt... -- Random, 07:39:16 03/06/04 Sat
Don't forget daylight savings time when doing your calculations
;-) And Anya will be available...try to catch her before she goes
all vengeance demon again.
Have fun with it.
[> [> Re: Hey Drizzt... -- Drizzt, 15:31:23 03/06/04
Sat
Hey Bit, will be in touch soon;)
Random
Normal Again is after Hells Bells; Xander's actions at the wedding
are the cause of Anya's desision. Undefined weather or not Anya
will be a vengance demon when(if) I get to Sunnydayle; odds are
I would arrive in a Sunnydayle at least slightly different than
as portrayed in the show if only because there are too many details
for me to have in conciouse awareness simultaneously. The show
is my "adress", so any details I do not focus on during
my attempt to get to Sunnydayle would be in quantum flux and thus
have many possible variations.
Thanks for the "fun with it" suggestion; my intention
is to get Buffy to laugh during the first hour after my arrival
in Sunnydayle. I do not remember any instance in wich she laughed
in season six & she was deppressed for most of the season. Laughter
is a form of joy and an excellant remedy for depression;)
[> Almost 3 years, not 3 1/2 -- Drizzt, 15:21:03
03/06/04 Sat
[> Hi Drizzt! Good to see you around. (waves) -- LadyStarlight,
16:18:04 03/07/04 Sun
New poll at Yahoo - which show should be saved?
Vote for Angel! -- Masq, 08:53:30 03/06/04 Sat
bottom left hand corner:
Which show should be saved?
Replies:
[> Done! -- Rob, 11:05:17 03/06/04 Sat
[> Re: New poll at Yahoo - which show should be saved? Vote
for Angel! -- Matlack73, 12:01:09 03/06/04 Sat
Done! Hey, we are in the lead.
Gone Forever and Memories (Spoilers through Shells)
-- hewyhynot, 10:22:32 03/06/04 Sat
Count me as one of those glad that ME appears to be making Fred
truly gone. Not because I don't like the character (I did like
Fred) but because of the exploration they seem to be taking us.
Fred won't be back but the memories of Fred remain. This season
is about memories, what they mean, their importance. Through the
years, ME has explored the value of feelings and a conscience
(a soul). Memories have been there but in the background. Now
they are brought to the forefront.
The Fang Gang lacks their memories of Connor. Illyria has Fred's
memories not her feelings not her soul but her memories. But why
do we feel certain things at certain times? Our memories (yes
instinct, genetics, etc. are there as well). As others have said
on here, out memories inform us. Memories dictate how we follow
our conscience. Which road we choose to take. Memories with feelings
connect us. With knowledge, memories enable us to be wise. It
is not just important where you are but also how you got there.
Angel the one with the memories of Connor. Unable to connect to
his loved ones and on a very important level he is alone.
The gang, missing their memories of Connor. Unable to learn from
history, doomed to repeat it.
Gunn full of knowledge but without the memories associated with
learning, unable to gain wisdom from his knowledge.
Illyria full of memories that are not hers. It is as if she has
read Fred's autobiography and watched the glorious movie. With
all the edits and changes each of us make to our own personal
history. Informed of what happened to Fred, what was important
to Fred. Fred is not the avatar for Illyria, Illyria is the avatar
of Fred's memory. What does that mean for Illyria?
On this plane, they only way we carry on after death is through
memories. It is the closest we get to immortality. Once we are
forgotten we are gone. Fred is us. She is as if one of us died.
We would not return, we would be gone save for the memories people
carried of us inside of them. The catch is, we don't live on as
we were or would of been but rather as we are remembered.
Think how often we have been asked to remember this year. The
very opening of the season, harkening back to City of... Every
instance where Connor is not remembered but other aspects of Seasons
3 & 4 are by the characters, we are asked to remember. Lindsey
playing with the memory of Doyle. Spike as Season 1 Angel. Cordelia's
return, the video of Doyle, Lawson & the sub, the rogue Slayer,
Andrew's appearance, Angel & Spike's past, the name of Buffy,
all clues to remember what has come before. How does this piece
of history fit in with what we knew before? What does it mean?
Always being informed by our memories of what we have seen on
the show, what feelings they invoked in us.
ME was asked to make the show more accessible to those without
memories of the episode before. But what is a show without a memory
of what came before? There is no development, the show keeps repeating
itself. The details change but the same overarching story is told
over and over again. ME is Angel, the WB is WH. Puts a different
spin on the season & cancelation doesn't it?
Replies:
[> Feelings and memoriesand Memories (Spoilers for 5.15,
5.16, and 4.17 "Inside Out" and Buffy S7) -- RadiusRS,
11:02:25 03/06/04 Sat
This season is about memories, what they mean, their importance.
Through the years, ME has explored the value of feelings and a
conscience (a soul). Memories have been there but in the background.
Now they are brought to the forefront.
I think you're definitely on to something here. When Connor was
visited by the spirit of Darla in "Inside Out", he asked
if she was truly his mother, to which she replied something like
"I have her feelings and her memories, isn't that what makes
a person who they are?" (and I remember Mayor Wilkins/The
First saying something similar to Faith when he appeared to her
at the end of Buffy Season 7, in "Touched" I believe).
ME has a habit of hinting at future seasons (Dawn as far back
as "Graduation Day" and in "Restless", Darla
and Cordy's related pregnancies in concurrent seasons) and this
seems to be an indicator of what was coming. I agree with your
stated examples for this season and will add some other ideas.
I think this point is made by bookending the two episodes with
Fred's memories of leaving Texas for L.A. Also, when Fred can't
remember who her rabbit (Feigenbaum(?), Master/Lord of Chaos)
is as her brain slowly disintegrates and she loses hold of who
she is. After Illyria has arrived, her motivation is her memories
of who she/it once was and once had until she realizes they're
nothing more than that. So it would seem that with the mindwipe,
Angel & W&H have taken a piece of who the Fang Gang is (including
Connor), and it is those memories that cause Angel to suffer and
allow W&H to manipulate the team.
[> [> Re: Feelings and memoriesand Memories (Spoilers
for 5.15, 5.16, and 4.17 "Inside Out" and Buffy S7)
-- heywhynot, 11:52:45 03/06/04 Sat
Is it the mindwipe that allows W&H to manipulate them? Gunn before
the mindwipe had issues with being what he believed was the muscle
of the group. He wanted something "more". That is what
seduced him, he would of gone with or without the memories of
Connor. Lorne was the first in the Limo. They all were intrigued
before the mindwipe. Each of them took the tour and each was impressed.
W&H was going to manipulate the team w/ or without the memories
of Connor. It was an arrangement they made with Angel to get him
on board. The Senior Partners I don't believe are interested in
the path, as long as their apocalypse comes to pass is all that
matters.
[> [> [> Gunn and the Mindwipe(Spoilers up to 5.16)
-- RadiusRS, 13:18:59 03/06/04 Sat
What I meant was that the mindwipe is what has split the group
apart. Sure Gunn was ambitious and would have taken the deal,
especially after W&H let him know that they were interested in
him as much as the rest of the Fang Gang. The upgrade came much
later; the deal was the bait, the upgrade the hook. If he had
never taken the upgrade, things wouldn't be where they are now.
And I think that whatever the SP have in mind for Gunn, it has
to do with both the Conduit and the upgrade, and probably with
the papers Harmony had him sign (which he didn't even look at,
even with his Lawyer know-how; which just leads me to believe
that Harm is working for the SP best interests and her niceness
and support this episode were just a distraction from this purpose).
If Gunn had remembered the events of the past few years relating
to Connor, perhaps he would have more perspective, he would remember
the connection to Fred that he created the summer it was just
them and Connor, he would remember that Connor replaced him as
the muscle of the group and that he became the will of the group
(his convo with Fred in "Inside Out", the self esteem
boost after his adventure with Gwen, "Never give up, Never
surrender" from "Sacrifice", the lack of self-love
he showed in earlier seasons, like when he sold his soul for this
truck, his reckless love of the battle that eventually grew into
strength, etc. are all indicators of his complex, heroic, and
self-destructive nature). But the Gunn that grew from his experiences
with Wesley, Connor, and Fred has been sufficiently altered, I
believe, to the point that the gaps in Gunn's memories are missing
important information that should make him more aware and confident
in himself. It seems to me that the midwipe was the provision
W&H put into the Deal, as it doesn't make sense that Angel would
propose to that, even if just to cover up his own actions in taking
the Deal.
Gunn's arc parallels Lindsey's arc in Dead End, where Lindsey
learns that a gift given to him was taken at great cost and suffering
from someone he knew and started with at W&H, and that they
died (partly) because of it (by Lindsey's own, ahem, hand). Lindsey
's theme was always finding his place in the world, as Holland
Manners reiterated on many occassions, and those are words Gunn
repeated to Wes as his reasons for wanting the permanent upgrade.
Gunn and Lindsey share a similar difficult background and upbringing,
which would make sense why Wolfram & Hart were attracted to them,
Gunn is the firm's current Golden Boy. I think the mindwipe has
affected Gunn since everything from season 3 on is now suspect,
due to the fact that I'm sure that even the conception of Connor
is not remembered by the Fang Gang. And those were the seasons
he grew the most. Therefore he is now in a more vulnerable position,
because he can't even remember his own acheivements concerning
Connor's, and therefore feels more empty, hollow, a shell, and
therefore more susceptible to the manipulations of W&H after the
mindwipe.
[> [> [> [> The Rest of the Gang and the Mindwipes
-- Claudia, 15:42:27 03/08/04 Mon
How were the others - Wes, Lorne and Fred - altered by the mindwipes?
Some things that've been bothering me about "A
Hole in the World/Shells" (spoilers) -- RadiusRS, 10:42:25
03/06/04 Sat
There is a post below that mentions that the annihilation of Fred's
soul vs. the release of the thousands of souls who would have
died had the sarcophagus been taken back to The Deeper Well was
perhaps the real issue at stake, and whether Angel did indeed
make the right decision by choosing to let Fred die (though he
didn't know at the time that her soul had been consumed). This
is the first time, in my memory, that we have seen or heard of
a soul being extinguished in the Buffyverse, which makes it all
the more shocking and painful in Fred's case, and seems to me
like the highest crimepossible (which is why I think Wesley's
murder of Knox was completely justified as well as his stabbing
of Gunn, and perhaps even just...Knox went way too far, Gunn,
though complicit, did not in any way attempt to destroy a soul).
At least Illyria might try to make amends. Now the Powers That
Be made clear that they wanted Angel to stay at W&H as long as
he was aware of the evil he was surrounded by (in "You're
Welcome") and I doubt that Cordelia's last appearance would
be used to perpetuate a lie...why would the Powers sacrifice Fred's
soul? Yes she killed a man, but she also stopped Jasmine by figuring
out her weakness and freeing Angel, without whom Jasmine's thrall
could not be destroyed.
We have seen many more heinous characters in the Buffyverse who
were damned, or who had already lost their souls (including Angelus
and Spike), so why allow Fred's soul to be destroyed? It doesn't
make sense to me, seeing as she had no choice in the matter (I
think they made it quite clear that she was in thrall to the sarcophagus
when she touched the gem) and the PTB made clear that choice is
a priority to them (the same goes for the Senior Partners, see
season 1 and 2 episodes especially those where Holland counsels
Lindsey (Angel 1.21 for example) to choose where his place in
the world is, or Lilah in "Home" for that matter). Angel
made a choice, but was it the right choice?
One alternative that always bothered me was, if the damn sarcophagus
was teleported out, why couldn't it be teleported back in? I assume
that W&H have Satellite Phones so why didn't Angel bring one along
in case there was information that needed to be relayed quickly
that would save Fred? And you know W&H has teleportation spells
among all their resources...
As for Willow (another act of Fred's was to call Willow so that
she could re-ensoul Angelus, another act that was essential in
defeating Jasmine), she clearly told the AI gang to ask for her
help if they needed it again, which is why I believe that Giles
was used as intermediary, Willow would have teleported to L.A.
immediately. And Giles not wanting to prevent what could be another
Apocalypse caused by an Old One (which he has fought before in
Sunnydale when the Hellmouth opened in "Prophecy Girl"
and "The Zeppo")? Very out of character for him, seeing
as he was willing to kill Spike in order to prevent a wild card
from upsetting their plans to fight the First Evil and prevent
the end of the world. Then again, Buffy Season 7 Giles was a huge
dissappointment to me, and an unfitting end to the character (which
is why I hope that Ripper could one day happen, to resolve all
that BS).
All in all, I believe these to be two magnificent episodes (the
ending of Shells reminded me a lot of the end of Donnie Darko,
which I loved) but with some flaws that could have been explained
away differently.
And I hope we see Drogyn again, that actor's cool and the character
was extremely interesting, especially the not lying part, which
could turn out to be extremely useful. Maybe the PTB will fire
him for not preventing Illyria's escape and he can join the Fang
Gang in L.A.
Replies:
[> Re: Some things that've been bothering me about "A
Hole in the World/Shells" (spoilers) -- heywhynot, 11:26:00
03/06/04 Sat
"why would the Powers sacrifice Fred's soul? "
(Why does God let bad things happen to good people?)
The Powers did not sacrifice Fred. They have done as they always
have done, let humanity choose its path. They inform, encourage
a certain path to be taken but they allow for free will. We saw
what would happen if the Powers acted beyond that, directly upon
humanity through the actions of Jasmine. They could not prevent
Fred's death but they could make sure Angel was in the right frame
of mind to deal with the death, without giving up & that is what
they did. Lots of choices led to Fred's demise.
Fred was not being punished. Something bad happened and she died.
It does suck, but that is reality.
Teleporting the sarcophegus was not an option:
DROGYN
But I didn't know it was free.
(looks down, sighs)
If we bring the sarcophagus back to the well, it will draw Illyria
out of your friend...and into every single person between here
and
there. It will become the mystical equivalent of airborne. It
will
claw into every soul in its path to keep from being trapped. Entire
citiesótens maybe hundreds of thousands will die in agony
if
you save her.
One would need to teleport them both. Teleportation has never
been shown to be an easy task. Anya as a demon could, but could
not transport anyone. It took Willow delving into Black Magicks
and expending lots of energy to teleport Glory. Angel and Spike
were not ready for having to bring them both back. And who knows
how many Knox's exist in W&H that could prevent Fred from being
teleported.
We don't know what was said to Giles about what was going on.
Also chances are that the Scoobies were busy. This time of year
for 7 previous years they had been busy saving the world, why
would this year be any different? Just because we are not seeing
their exploits?
As for Drogyn, are you sure he works for the PTB? We don't know
how one becomes the guardian of the Deeper Well.
[> [> Re: Some things that've been bothering me about
"A Hole in the World/Shells" (spoilers) -- Widget,
17:06:42 03/07/04 Sun
I agree. If every thing that happens is because the PTB will it
or want it to (or allow it), then whats the point of having of
fighting evil. There wouldn't be a need to fight evil. Good would
just win. Which would be boring.
--We have seen many more heinous characters in the Buffyverse
--who were damned, or who had already lost their souls --(including
Angelus and Spike), so why allow Fred's soul to --be destroyed?
It doesn't make sense to me, seeing as she had --no choice in
the matter
The coolest things that can happen are often the most cruel and
arbitrary and don't involve the dead character's choice (or choices).
Like when Angelus snapped Jenny Calendar's neck. She really didn't
have that coming, and though complicit (a bit) in Angel's turn
to Angelus, it wasn't her fault...and then she died. Awesome drama
(poor Giles, too).
Cordelia's entire arc (retrofitted during season 4 to include
almost everything that happened to her once she left Sunnydale)
was neat because she ultimately was nothing but a pawn in an ancient
godling's scheme and her body was destroyed in the end and none
of it was her fault. Quite tragic. Also cool (unless you look
at the details of season 4 too closely--ack) overall.
As for Fred's soul being cosumed. Why not. I'm sure an old one
needs a lot of energy in resurrecting itself. Makes total sense
to me. And even more tragic and cool because it was all ultimately
for nothing as she came back too late and her temple and army
were already dust. Fred and her soul were destroyed for nothing.
Nothing at all. However, sometimes a minute of evil rebounds against
the darkness in which it was spawned and sets a chain of events
into motion which ultimately serves good. Just ask Boromir. So
Fred's utter destruction may ultimately serve some good purpose.
Or alternately, it was just bad luck. Either way, it was tragically
cool.
[> Disagree -- Joyce, 10:13:27 03/08/04 Mon
{This is the first time, in my memory, that we have seen or heard
of a soul being extinguished in the Buffyverse, which makes it
all the more shocking and painful in Fred's case, and seems to
me like the highest crimepossible (which is why I think Wesley's
murder of Knox was completely justified as well as his stabbing
of Gunn, and perhaps even just...Knox went way too far, Gunn,
though complicit, did not in any way attempt to destroy a soul).
}
Sorry, but I must disagree. No matter how horrible Knox's crime
was, Wesley had no right to take matters in his own hands by committing
murder. Wesley did not exact justice or punishment. All he did
was sink to Knox's level. I think that Willow's actions in "Villains"
would support this.
[> [> Re: Disagree-disagree -- Widget, 16:30:16
03/08/04 Mon
Leaving Knox alive to influence Illyria and possibly point her
back down her dark path would have been a grievous tactical error.
Professor X has stopped Wolverine from killing Magneto more than
once--and yeah, it would have been a viscious, ruthless execution,
and probably wrong--but ultimately worth it and a good move.
Not comparing Knox to Magneto of course, but its not that dissimilar
of a situation either.
Buffy Alum Alert - Amber Benson on "Cold
Case" (cbs) tonight -- Darby, 05:56:32 03/07/04 Sun
After 60 Minutes, 8PM EST.
I've never seen the show, but I'll watch it to see an actress
who was killed on a deceased series. Is that weird?
Replies:
[> Re: Buffy Alum Alert - Amber Benson on "Cold Case"
(cbs) tonight -- Old One, 08:25:10 03/07/04 Sun
I highly recommend Cold Case. I think it's the only new show I've
continued to watch this season.
[> [> Thanks.. -- Jane, 15:36:41 03/07/04 Sun
Saw a trailer for this last night, and thought I saw Amber Benson
there. Must give it a looksee.
[> TiVo target locked and ready. ;-) Thanks, Darby.
-- Rob, 08:39:56 03/07/04 Sun
[> Amber Benson sighted! (spoilers for Cold Case) --
CW, 20:54:12 03/07/04 Sun
Amber Benson would have made a great hippie. But, her black friend
would have been marked as an Uncle Tom. The writers are young
and naive if they think a leader of the anti-war movement would
have been threatened much by a drug arrest. That was practically
a badge of honor among those folks. Drug related sentences for
anyone even vaguely involved with study at a college were light
in those days. Part of the leniency was because dragging one of
those windbags to a full trial was generally a huge mistake. More
likely he'd be taken before a judge without a jury sentenced to
a couple months of jail and come out a hero.
I'm sure there were informants we didn't know about, and I wasn't
much interested in the antiwar movement until Kent State. But
we knew who some of the informants were. In fact, they might as
well have carried a sign and rang a bell as they walked along.
The reason why they were successful was that the leaders of the
movements were such egomaniacs, they'd talk to anyone who'd listen,
even if they knew darn well the guy was ratting them out.
Final note, the studios need to look for some new talent or at
least stop rigidly typecasting what they've got. Can't remeber
a time when the villain in this one, didn't turn out to be the
villain in anything I've seen him in.
[> [> That reminds me! -- Old One, 21:15:29 03/07/04
Sun
Chris Sarandon (the villain in this episode of Cold Case, and
Susan Sarandon's first husband) played the sexiest vampire I've
ever seen in a comedy I cannot remember the name of, but I'm going
to find it. The only thing I can remember is I think the woman
who played the next door neighbour on Married, With Children (Marcie?)
was the female lead in it. He was amazing. This was years and
years before Buffy, of course.
I agree with CW that it's kind of jarring to see a current writer's
perspective on what the 60s were like if you lived through them.
OTOH, this was a good showcase for Amber. I always thought Tara
was pretty much a hippie anyway.
[> [> [> Fright Night, that was it. -- Old One,
21:18:02 03/07/04 Sun
[> [> [> I only saw the last five minutes but
-- Ann, 08:03:54 03/08/04 Mon
I kept thinking that this is what Tara's funeral and wake would
have been like. Not the hippie/detective parts, but the loving
photos, the remembrance and the sense of loss that they all shared.
But instead, the Scoobies had to deal with other stuff going on.
In some ways, last night, felt like closure for me for Tara. I
have no idea how it related to the rest of the Cold Case epidsode,
but it worked for me.
Fred: S3 The Price and S5 Holes/Shells --
Cheryl, 08:22:57 03/07/04 Sun
I'm watching my S3 Angel DVDs and watched The Price last night.
This is the one where those translucent slugs show up in the hotel
and suck people dry if they get infected. A few things jumped
out at me that seem to parallel Hole and Shells. If this has already
been discussed, please forgive me and point me to the thread.
I just thought this was interesting:
1) Fred is 'infected' and her insides are being sucked dry/liquified
and she will die.
2) The reason this is happening is because Angel did something
drastic to save Conner. In S3 (Forgiving) he does a spell to corporealize
Sahjhan, which brings the slugs to our dimension. He got the spell
to do this from W&H. At the end of S4 he makes a deal with
the Senior Partners to save Conner.
3) In The Price, Gunn goes to Wesley, now an outcast, to save
Fred. In Shells, Gunn becomes the outcast. Makes me wonder if
they'll have to go to Gunn to save Fred in the future.
4) In The Price, they close up the hotel to prevent the slugs
from escaping and infecting thousands of innocent people. In Holes/Shells,
Angel and Spike make the decision to not teleport the sarcophagus
back in order to prevent thousands of innocent people from getting
infected.
Is there some meaning to all this? I doubt ME had a case of amnesia
and forgot what they did in S3, unless the mindwipe affected them,
too. ;-) Does this mean there's still hope for Fred yet?
Replies:
[> Spoilers through 5.16 above -- Cheryl, 08:25:29
03/07/04 Sun
[> Also, another important aspect of that ep... (spoilers
through 5.16) -- Rob, 08:38:01 03/07/04 Sun
...or at least, I hope, is that although the Sluk was supposed
to possess Fred fully, as they did the man earlier in the episode,
she was able to break out of its thrall for short periods of time.
Maybe her superpower really is being able to hold on. Fingers
crossed. ;-)
At the very least, the fact that there are remnants of Fred left
in Illyria is a link between the episodes.
Rob
[> [> Re: Also, another important aspect of that ep...
(spoilers through 5.16) -- Laney, 09:27:00 03/07/04 Sun
Interesting. Didn't think of that. Having watched 'Shells' a couple
of times, I got a sense of finality to it, though.
Fred's dead, baby ... Fred's dead.
[> [> [> Re: Also, another important aspect of that
ep... (spoilers through 5.16) -- Rob, 11:41:08 03/07/04
Sun
Having watched 'Shells' a couple of times, I got a sense of
finality to it, though.
Fred's dead, baby ... Fred's dead.
Which is, I'm hoping, exactly what Joss wants us to think. ;-)
Rob
[> [> [> [> Re: Also, another important aspect
of that ep... (spoilers through 5.16) -- Cheryl, 12:24:11
03/07/04 Sun
Which is, I'm hoping, exactly what Joss wants us to think.
;-)
That's where I'm coming from, too. It seems so obvious that Fred
is "dead" so I wouldn't be surprised if there was some
twist coming up. Besides, these mystical deaths always seem to
have an escape clause of sorts. The big concern is what really
happened to Fred's soul. I'm having trouble accepting it was completely
destroyed because I believe the energy was just transformed into
something else. And it would just be *wrong* to destroy Fred,
of all people, like that.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Also, another important aspect
of that ep... (spoilers through 5.16) -- botitas,
13:48:44 03/07/04 Sun
Perhaps one should consider the source of the information that
Fred's soul has been destroyed...the doctor, who just happens
to be EVIL
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Also, another important
aspect of that ep... (spoilers through 5.16) -- Widget, 17:50:49
03/07/04 Sun
ARRRGGHHHHH!!!! and Grrr...
Seriously though...why does every one want the best Buffyverse
death of all time to not really have been a true death.
One of ME's biggest challenges over the years is that they get
to attatched to their actors and keep them around long after their
respective character's arcs are over...but finally, Joss found
a way to kill off one of his characters, and yet keep the actress
he really likes around. Kudos.
Illyria is not Fred. Illyria's new form is in part similar to
Fred (it would seem), but thats it. Everyone appears to be looking
at this two-dimensionally or alternately, can't stand to see a
beloved character die.
But this is war people! There must be casualties. Does anyone
realize how many X-men (I gotta keep plugging--Joss after all
will be honoring us all with Astonishing X-men very soon) have
died over the years that have never come back? Lots.
If alternately, ME takes the easy road and brings Fred back, it
will be bad writing and anti-climactic.
Leave her dead.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Also, another
important aspect of that ep... (spoilers through 5.16) --
LittleBit, 20:55:37 03/07/04 Sun
"ARRRGGHHHHH!!!! and Grrr...
Seriously though...why does every one want the best Buffyverse
death of all time to not really have been a true death."
I don't think that everyone wants this not to have been a 'true
death' at all. Discussing the possible implications of what happened
to Fred, how the death occurred, and what really did happen to
her soul, while recognizing that some sort of fragment of her
appears to have remained in Illyria is not the same as saying
she must, or should, return.
Regardless of whether or not Fred does or doesn't return, it's
still a mystical death, and certainly one different than any other.
The possibilities of it, which include whether or not Fred is
truly gone beyond any recall, are philosophically, mythologically
and theologically intriguing. These issues can't really be discussed
without considering the possibility that Fred could return as
well as that she is irretrievably gone.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Also, another
important aspect of that ep... (spoilers through 5.16) --
Widget, 21:19:30 03/07/04 Sun
I agree. But some do seem to be hoping she will come back. I understand
where they are coming from--its hard to see a beloved character
die.
But--IF it is true that her soul was destroyed (and yes, some
say you can't trust the source since he was evil--course if I
was evil, I think I'd probably tell the truth on this one since
it hurts team angel so darn much)--then she isn't coming back.
Thats pretty much final. Oblivion and all that.
I for one am enjoying the new character of Illyria and the implications
of Fred's death and her heroic nature impacting the reborn old
one and not thinking about the possibility of Fred coming back.
Bringing her back is as bad as not leaving Jean Grey dead (which
was the original plan according to Claremont and Byrne)--but Marvel
wussed out and she was found in a cocoon in the NY harbor and
then we got the launch of X-factor...cool, but the Dark Phoenix
storyline lost something as a result of that retrofit.
The possibility of Fred coming back just isn't interesting to
me as ME has walked that road before and its not as good of an
ending as leaving Fred dead.
But point taken. Mr. pointy, in fact...heh-heh.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Also,
another important aspect of that ep... (spoilers through 5.16)
-- Rob, 09:28:51 03/08/04 Mon
The possibility of Fred coming back just isn't interesting
to me as ME has walked that road before and its not as good of
an ending as leaving Fred dead.
Plotwise, leaving Fred dead might be the more unusual move, but
characterwise, I can't help feeling that her arc would seem incomplete
were she not to be brought back. She spent the past few years
fighting against being the damsel in distress, learning how to
survive and adapt. If the story were to end with her being indeed
the damsel in distress, I personally feel that it would be incredibly
unsatisfying. Right now, I am thoroughly fascinated by Illyria.
I think she is a remarkable and brilliant character, and if Fred
does not come back, I am not ruling out the possibility that the
parts of Fred still inexplicably alive in Illyria won't end up
completing Fred's journey, in an unexpected manner, even if she
herself never comes back. But until I see how the season turns
out, I will still cling to the hope that Winnifred Burkle will
be back. If she isn't, however, I can pretty much guarantee I'll
love whatever happens regardless. It doesn't hurt, of course,
that Illyria is such an incredible character.
Rob
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Well
put! -- Widget, 16:34:48 03/08/04 Mon
And that brings up the philosophically interesting question of
--even if Fred is dead and never returns, but her memory fragments
and incredibly heroic personality template compel Illyria to become
something of a hero, herself, is it part of Fred's character arc?
A continuation of it? Or something totally new?
Whatever happens, kudos to Amy Acker! She is a fantastic actress.
I'm so enjoying her chance to show her range.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
Also well put! -- Rob, 19:58:41 03/08/04 Mon
even if Fred is dead and never returns, but her memory fragments
and incredibly heroic personality template compel Illyria to become
something of a hero, herself, is it part of Fred's character arc?
A continuation of it? Or something totally new?
It's posts like this one that make me curse five-week-long hiatuses.
I wanna know what happens now, dammit!! ;o)
Rob
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
[> You sure you want to know.........veg......;) --
Rufus, 22:47:44 03/08/04 Mon
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Fred/Illyria
-- Claudia, 15:20:23 03/09/04 Tue
I've lost interest in Fred and Illyria. I'm more interested in
Angel and Spike's story.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
Well, gosh. That was quick. -- Sheri, 17:11:32 03/09/04
Tue
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
Really? -- LittleBit, 19:28:03 03/09/04 Tue
Thank you for letting us know.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
Short attention span? Sorry to hear that. -- Jane, 19:36:02
03/09/04 Tue
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
[> No Need For Insults, Jane -- Claudia, 08:23:54
03/10/04 Wed
No Jane, I do not have a short attention span. I'm simply more
interested in Angel and Spike's story. I'm sorry if you don't
care for my lack of interest in Fred/Illyria.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Jane was referring to your phrasing... -- Rob,
11:20:41 03/10/04 Wed
"Lost all interest" sounds like it's a story arc that's
been lasting all season, rather than a character who has only
been on one complete episode. It would maybe be understandable
(even though I don't agree with this) if you were to have not
been interested in Illyria from the start, but "lost"
implies that you had interest to begin with. And it seems highly
unlikely that someone could go from one extreme to the other in
the space of a single 42 minutes, particularly when none of us
who are unspoiled know where this plot is going.
Rob
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
[> [> As Rob said.. -- Jane, 18:21:38 03/10/04
Wed
I was referring to the fact that your post indicated that you
aren't interested in seeing how Illyria will affect the story
line (including Angel and Spike). No insult intended. Nuff said.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: You
conveinced me. Besides, a dillemma would be better [A5x12-A5x16]
-- MBB, 09:59:54 03/12/04 Fri
You convinced me. I am one of those people that want to have the
hero's to survive forever, want Doyle to come back . Heck, I even
want Jesse to come back
But I agree with you, they bring too much characters back, while
the strenght of the show was to kill them off, have thme m,ade
impact on the other characters.
They already did it with Darla's ghost, and certa=inly with Spike.
Fred (or Cordy) would be way too much.
I now *finally* understand why I felt so bad about Cordy's
death; either her story would end without closure , or they will
make it rediculouse by bringing her back.
I feel her story is unfinished - She's tricked in a way no God
played with a human since Odysseus- but I understand and agre
with Josss that in the current story there was no place for her.
Her comatosed state was perfect; like they put her story on ice
till time, place and seasonarc where right to fit her in with
appropriate time and attention.
Now, it was neither and the fear of her return.
with Fred, there is not even this unclosure-feelin, so actually
there is no reason for it.
on the other hand, it would be very interesting if Gunn and Wesley
were set for the dillemma of having Fred return or keep Illyria
alive and teach her how to live on (sort of like Anya)
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Also, another important aspect
of that ep... (spoilers through 5.16) -- Widget, 17:43:48
03/07/04 Sun
Souls power magic. In the process they are destroyed (which yes,
if souls are energy, admittedly its more like the energy is transformed),
makes perfect sense to me.
The very reason that these mystical deaths 'always' have an escape
clause is why somebody should actually stay dead this time.
I fear that those pining for her return are missing the point
and dramatic impact of her destruction and the implications of
Illyria's most unfortunate choice of a shell, in that she picked
a being so heroic it has made her less evil and something other
than what she should have been.
Its a lot like when Cyclops fused with Apocalypse--even though
the big A is dead and gone (I hope--you never know with Marvel),
Cyke is not the same guy he was--little bits of an arch-villain's
personality are still within him. But that in no way is evidence
that Apocalypse is still in there.
[> [> [> [> Re: Also, another important aspect
of that ep... (spoilers through 5.16) -- Widget, 17:37:32
03/07/04 Sun
Except Joss has already done that to us before...a bunch. This
time it would be boring and cliche even for the Buffyverse. Let
Fred rest in peace.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Also, another important aspect
of that ep (spolied Shells) -- skeeve, 16:21:50 03/08/04 Mon
"Let Fred rest in peace."
Fred isn't resting.
[> Re: Fred: S3 The Price and S5 Holes/Shells -- Widget,
17:34:48 03/07/04 Sun
It would be so anti-climactic if Fred is saveable. She is gone
(I hope).
Saving her would be like bringing Jenny Calendar back in BTVS
season 2. It would have ruined the dramatic impact of her dying
in the first place.
While I like Fred as much as everyone else (Even more now that
she is gone), I don't want her to be saved. That would be bad
drama. Everytime a major cast member has died or been close to
it, with the exception of Tara (and poor Anya--but that was a
finale, someone HAD to die)--they have either saved them, raised
them from the dead...etc.
For example, would have been so very sad and extremely powerful
had they not rescued Oz from the intiative in time, and then had
to end up helping and saving the idiots that killed their friend...because
Adam was way worse.
So, they can't keep doing that (saving everyone/raising the dead)
every time a main cast member becomes a casualty in the war between
good and evil, which is why I think it was made clear to us that
her soul was destroyed and she is never coming back.
It would be bad writing to bring her back. Bad.
I do not, for instance, want Colossus to ever come back to life
no matter what and he was one of my top 5 X-men.
[> Re: Fred: S3 The Price and S5 Holes/Shells -- ScottS, 18:55:47 03/07/04
Sun
Did you note as you were watching The Price that it is contructed
as a series of homages to Hitchcock? First the dying man pointing
to the hero and then falling over dead (The Man Who Knew to Much,
2nd version), then the upstairs room full of twittering ... somethings
(The Birds), then the toilet scene (Psycho), followed by the backwards
recoil of the character with knife in hand, striking the dangling
light bulb (also Psycho).
Extra points if anyone can identify other Hitchcock bits in The
Price.
[> Re: Fred: S3 The Price and S5 Holes/Shells -- MBB,
10:11:07 03/12/04 Fri
Very interesting, I ahd not noticed they had so much in common.
Her soul was burning in the Eternal Flames, but we saw in the
opening of A Hole in the World, that fire can be cleaning. And
like alcohol, heath also generates a bad living environment for
creatures that live on/of water.
I really like the Wes going to Gunn for help. Especially since
Gunn has been growing and prepairing for something big from the
beginning; this might be it,
On the other hand, if it were Fred herself some how tha5t got
to hom, it would complete the circle of Gunn->Wwes (the Price)
and Fred->Wes (Supersymetry), and made Wes feel how it is not
being the guy that saves Fred.
--
PS;
I hate that -clear-butten, missed and everything gone :-(
[> [> Re: Fred: S3 The Price and S5 Holes/Shells Connor
for Fred? -- MBB, 10:42:02 03/12/04 Fri
PPS:
And they said that everything from Fred was distroyed, but is
it?
I meen, when W&H removed all their memories about Connor, I bnet
they nmade a 'backup' from all their brains in case they ever
needed it (or just only to discover how their minds work).
We have seen their brain databank in Live of the Party (5x05).
Maybe if they undo the deal, Fred's memory would be 'set back',
and be installed OVER Illiria; having still Illiria's soul occupiing
Fred's body, but without her own memory, she would act and think
like Fred. (like running a APPLE emulator on Windows installed
on an APPLE :-P )
--
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