March 2004 posts
Season
3 Wes vs. Season 5 Gunn (spoilers through AHitW) -- Invisible
Green, 12:09:01 03/02/04 Tue
In season three, Wes made a decision that resulted in Connor being
kidnapped. Last ep, we saw Fred die due to a decision made by
Gunn.
Wesley was eventually forgiven. But will Gunn be? Wesley is the
one who will be the most pissed at Gunn. If he could remember
his experience during season three, then one could guess that
he would be more likely to forgive Gunn. But, thanks to the mindwipe,
he doesn't remember.
This is kinda rambly, but you see my points, right? I wonder where
this will go.
Also, there is a key difference between Wesley and Gunn. Wesley
made his decision out of Connor's best interest. He had no clue
about Justine and Holtz's true plans. Gunn made his decision out
of his own personal interest (which, oddly enough, is similar
to Cordy's decision in "Birthday," but with a much different
catch). This makes Gunn that much more guilty.
Gunn clearly will be punished in some way. I guess the question
is, what does he deserve? Just like Wes didn't know of Justine
and Holtz's plans, Gunn didn't know of the doctor's plans. The
important thing is that Gunn knew that what he was doing was illegal,
even if he didn't know what it was.
Replies:
[> Re: Season 3 Wes vs. Season 5 Gunn (spoilers through
AHitW) -- Claudia, 12:32:14 03/02/04 Tue
Regardless of Gunn's intentions, he should be forgiven. Because
it's obvious that he feels remorse for his actions and that's
always the first step, isn't it?
But has Angel really forgiven Wes for Connor's kidnapping? And
has Wes ever expressed remorse for his actions in Season 3?
[> [> In Ground State... -- Seven, 13:23:13 03/02/04
Tue
In the second ep of season 4, Angel forgives Wes. It is not as
obvious as,"Wesely Wyndom-Price, I forgive you for betraying
us and stealing my son, whose life is now ruined," but he
does (very realisticly) say something like, "Hey, Wes. What
you did for me. We're good now."
Wes, however, still felt betrayed and chose to stay away.
Also, In Lineage, Angel comes to the conclusion that he truly
understands Wes' side of the story. At the end of the ep, he says,
"They're wrong. You're the guy that has to make the hard
decisions, no matter the cost. Y'know, i really never understood
that till now."
When Angel saw that Wes was willing to sacrifice someone when
it was his family member who is killed (or lost) Angel finally
saw that Wes was willing to do the same thing if the circumstances
concerning his son were reversed. However, Wes does not remember
kidnapping Connor, so it would make sense if he chooses not to
forgive Gunn (at least just yet.)
7
[> [> [> Wes Forgiveness -- Claudia, 13:35:56
03/02/04 Tue
Does Wes have to remember his actions in Season 3 to forgive Charles?
[> [> [> [> Re: Wes Forgiveness -- Mike, 15:04:46
03/02/04 Tue
That's totally true with the points made from those episodes.
I'll like to add another distinction between Wes' and Gunn's respective
motives/actions and the forgiveness issue:
Let's not forget a certain, essential reason why Wes was afraid
that Angel would have killed Connor had Wolfram & Hart's and Saihjan's
plan succeeded. Remember way back to 1st Season: In "Under
My Skin", the Ethros demon teases Wes
about killing Angel if he had to. In "Eternity", Angelus
(Angel temporarily-drugged, releasing his evil side) psychologically-taunts
Wes. Later after Angel apologizes, Wes responds by not envying
him at all, that "Angel walks a
fine line" between good and evil.
Wes' knowledge of Angelus, not to mention Angel being prone
to turn evil, have been more or less instrumental in his decision
to kidnap Connor rather than solve that dilemma with the rest
of the gang. As much as Wes believes that Angel is "noble"
and "good", the possibility that any day
Angelus will return seems to hover in his head (Wes'
moments with Holtz, "The beast is in him, you've seen it,
it'll re-emerge"). Saving Connor and Angel obviously includes
saving Angel from letting the demon and blood lust overcome him
and kill his son. Of course, now, Wes doesn't remember that part
in his time with AI.
Gunn, basically, did not have Angelus in mind at all, in illegally
getting the shipment through customs. Didn't have anything or
any situation regarding saving Angel, or anyone
else for that matter. Gunn, stemming from self-image, just wanted
to keep a current power/gift to be a part of the team. Still,
not telling even Angel about his decision to get the implant before
actually getting it in the first place must tell something. Does
Gunn fear Angel's reactions at times? If a conversation had happened,
and Angel instructed Gunn not to get the implant, would he have
went thru with the implant anyway? All I can get is that the "muscle"
issue never came up with anyone, except Gwen ("Players"),
still not enough to make Gunn want to confide anything serious
with Angel at this point.
Now as you mentioned, the mindwipe is still in effect,
therefore, the only person in Team Angel that has betrayed anyone
or led to a member's death is Gunn. Only Angel (besides Cordy,
Eve, and maybe Lindsey) knows that Wes has betrayed the team before.
Angel's reaction to Gunn's betrayal would definitely yield a more
different take than the rest of the team. Angel has forgiven Wes
in his own way, both seem now to be the best of friends fighting
evil together. Angel finally realized in "Lineage" what
must have been going on in Wes' head when he took Connor; finally
understanding the things/decisions Wes has to face
when trying to do good. Gunn, on the other hand, wasn't trying
to do good, wasn't out to save a life just his own ego. I don't
think Angel could look at Gunn well at all when he finds out Gunn's
unwilling part in Illyria's arrival.
And forgiveness also seems to depend on the degree or outcome
of betrayal. Angel's betrayal of the gang (Season 2), though there
were no tragic consequences afterwards.
Wes and Gunn, both human along with the complexities of
human emotion, have brought upon far worse actions.
Can't wait to see how this will all play out.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Wes Forgiveness -- Claudia,
10:04:36 03/03/04 Wed
So, are you saying that because Gunn's initial decision to allow
the sarcophogus to be shipped for selfish reason, he deserves
forgiveness less than Wes? And although Wes' reasons were not
selfish, I have yet to hear him express remorse for his actions.
And yet, it is perfectly clear that Gunn already feels guilt and
remorse.
And doesn't that go against what Giles had said in "I Only
Have Eyes For You"? That people should be given forgiveness
because they need it, not because they deserve it? Doesn't that
count for Angel, Gunn and Wesley? And others?
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Wes Forgiveness
-- Mike, 20:34:59 03/03/04 Wed
Very good point about Giles, I actually forgot about that whole
speech. In that case, hopefully forgiveness is given
in the end because Gunn will really really need it. However, considering
Wes' mental state, looks like he won't forgive Gunn anytime soon.
And we'd still have to see how Angel interacts with Gunn later
on.
Although, money's on Angel not holding Gunn responsible for Fred's
death (not directly). Afterall, W & H has corrupted all of AI's
members in 1 form or another since they've been
working in "the belly of the beast". And Angel is directly
responsible for the being there in the first place. Perhaps Wes
might forgive Gunn, if for nothing more than like what Giles said
about forgiveness.
Here's 1 more angle, what if Wes is broken out of the memory-wipe,
realizes Angel's deal with the devil in them working for W&H.
Translation, working for W&H leading to
Fred's death.
I'd imagine the issue of betrayal and forgiveness must come forth
between Angel and Wes. Maybe a more heated argument over those
issues -- Wes stealing Connor, unwillingly leading Connor to a
hell dimension than a life of death, pain, confusion, self-destruction,
and Angel's deal with W&H unwillingly leading to Fred's death
months later.
But thanks for reminding me about the 1-needing-rather-than-deserving-forgiveness
issue.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Wes Blame --
RadiusRS, 17:10:37 03/04/04 Thu
I'd imagine the issue of betrayal and forgiveness must come
forth between Angel and Wes. Maybe a more heated argument over
those issues -- Wes stealing Connor, unwillingly leading Connor
to a hell dimension than a life of death, pain, confusion, self-destruction,
and Angel's deal with W&H unwillingly leading to Fred's death
months later.
But wasn't Wes stealing Connor what led to Crazy Connor and thus
the whole reason for taking the W&H deal in the first place? And
didn't Skip say that Wes stole Connor as part of the plan to bring
forth Jasmine? So isn't everything that's happening here really
due to Jasmine and Skip's manipulations? Who do you blame?
[> another difference, in the other direction -- anom,
10:06:17 03/03/04 Wed
"Also, there is a key difference between Wesley and Gunn.
Wesley made his decision out of Connor's best interest. He had
no clue about Justine and Holtz's true plans. Gunn made his decision
out of his own personal interest (which, oddly enough, is similar
to Cordy's decision in 'Birthday,' but with a much different catch).
This makes Gunn that much more guilty."
Wesley knew what kidnapping Connor would do to Angel, even though
he certainly didn't expect Justine to cut his throat & take Connor
to Holtz. (And if I remember right, Wes had no intention of turning
Connor over to them, so I'm not sure what you mean by their "true"
plans.) If everything had gone as Wes expected, Angel would have
been devastated. Maybe his decision was a little easier because
he wasn't going to come back & wouldn't have to be there to see
what Angel would be going through--or to be blamed by everyone.
(Didn't turn out that way, though....) Gunn had no idea his cutting
red tape at Customs would have any effect on Fred, or cause
harm to anyone.
I don't disagree w/the fact that Wesley thought he was protecting
Connor. This is just the flip side.
[> [> Then again... (spoilers for "Shells")
-- Gyrus, 08:15:01 03/04/04 Thu
Wesley knew what kidnapping Connor would do to Angel, even
though he certainly didn't expect Justine to cut his throat & take
Connor to Holtz...If everything had gone as Wes expected, Angel
would have been devastated. Maybe his decision was a little easier
because he wasn't going to come back & wouldn't have to be there
to see what Angel would be going through--or to be blamed by everyone.
I don't see how that makes Wesley's decision easy -- it meant
losing all of his friends and taking permanent, single-parent
responsibility for Connor. He was also saving Angel from murdering
his own son (or so he thought), which ultimately would have been
more devastating to Angel than having Connor taken away.
Gunn had no idea his cutting red tape at Customs would have
any effect on Fred, or cause harm to anyone.
But surely Gunn suspected that he was making a Devil's deal. After
signing the contract, he could have tracked the item through customs
to find out what it was and where it was going. But instead he
just swept the whole thing under the rug.
More disturbing to me is Gunn's statement in "Shells"
that "I didn't think it would be Fred." Essentially,
he's saying that he knew SOMEONE might get hurt or killed in exchange
for Gunn getting his legal knowledge restored, but he didn't think
it would be anyone he cared about. That, to me, is what makes
his actions seem far less justified than Wesley's in S3.
This is not to say that Gunn can't or shouldn't be forgiven, but
he's got some serious penance ahead of him before that can happen.
[> [> [> yeah, well...so much for that... -- anom,
21:08:31 03/04/04 Thu
"'Gunn had no idea his cutting red tape at Customs would
have any effect on Fred, or cause harm to anyone.'
[...]
More disturbing to me is Gunn's statement in 'Shells' that 'I
didn't think it would be Fred.'"
Me too. That completely undercuts what I said above. Best I can
say is that Gunn got some inkling when he saw the paperwork for
the sarcophagus that it wasn't anything good, but the doc had
already held up his end of the bargain, so Gunn felt obligated,
& figuring it wouldn't hurt anyone he knew (doesn't he know
better by now?) helped him justify his actions to himself when
he followed through on his end. I agree that that justification
doesn't hold up.
As far as this part: "I don't see how that makes Wesley's
decision easy...," easier isn't the same as easy.
I meant easier but still toward the hard end of the scale...maybe
"less hard" would've been clearer.
[> [> [> [> Re: yeah, well...so much for that...
-- Gyrus, 07:57:13 03/05/04 Fri
"I don't see how that makes Wesley's decision easy...,"
easier isn't the same as easy. I meant easier but still toward
the hard end of the scale...maybe "less hard" would've
been clearer.
No, no, my fault, not yours. You wrote "a little easier",
which I hastily read as "easy".
In response to what you originally wrote:
Maybe his decision was a little easier because he wasn't going
to come back & wouldn't have to be there to see what Angel would
be going through--or to be blamed by everyone.
What I was really thinking -- and failed to articulate well --
was that Wes' going away forever would be as much a bad thing
for him as a good one, because he would be losing every friend
he had.
Not that Wesley would really have a choice, of course. If he somehow
managed to send Connor away and while remaining at AI himself,
Angel would eventually find out Wesley was responsible (if not
by detective work, then by discovering Wesley doing something
to cover up his own involvement) and then torture him until Wesley
revealed where Connor was.
[> [> [> Penance -- Claudia, 15:57:51 03/05/04
Fri
"This is not to say that Gunn can't or shouldn't be forgiven,
but he's got some serious penance ahead of him before that can
happen."
Gunn is not alone. Angel has some pennance to do for getting them
all involved with Wolfram & Hart in the first place. Wesley has
some pennance to do for his murder of Knox and his attempted murder
of Gunn.
At least Gunn has realized that what he had done was wrong. Has
Wesley come to the same conclusion? I don't even recall him expressing
remorse for kidnapping Connor before the mindwipe. And now after
the murder of Knox and the attempted murder on Gunn, he's excusing
his actions. He believes that he has done the right thing, when
all he has done is open his heart to rage and committed evil.
Do people feel that vengeance or "justice" are reasonable
excuses for cold-blooded murder? I don't. I feel sorry for Wes
in his grief, but what he did was just as wrong as Gunn. And like
Gunn, he has to pay.
Angel 5.15 and Shakespeare -- Penthesilea,
17:08:55 03/02/04 Tue
The first thing that popped into my head when we first saw the
Deepest Well were a couple of lines from Shakespeare's A Midsummer
Night's Dream:
"The sun was not so true unto the day
As he to me. Would he have stolen away
From sleeping Hermia? I'll believe as soon
This whole earth may be bor'd, and that the moon
May through the center creep, and so displease
Her brothers noontide with th'antipodes.
It cannot be but thou hast murder'd him."
Normally, I would dismiss this as coincidence, but knowing Joss'
love of Shakespeare, and the other Shakespearean allusions in
the episode (Illyria, the twin imagery), maybe there's something
more to this.
While looking over Hermia's speech, the incredibly moving scenes
between Wes and Fred came to mind, especially the scene where
she woke up after dozing off. Wes in these scenes is what Hermia
imagines her true love Lysander to be: unfailing in his love and
devotion. Unfortunately for Hermia, Lysander actually has left
her side, thanks to Puck's magic spell that has caused him to
fall in love with her best friend Helena. Hermia, waking from
a nightmare, tries to find him, only to find her other suitor
Demetrius, who she accuses of killing Lysander. In a strange parallel,
Hermia's nightmare is that a serpent is eating her heart, and
Lysander does nothing. Illyria is destroying Fred's internal organs,
and Knox believes Fred's men will stand by and let her die, rather
than allow thousands to be killed in Illyria's fury.
HitW works in parallel to Midsummer Night's Dream. Fred, cast
in the Hermia role, may have all her men gathered around her bedside,
but they are as far from the men she (and we) know and love as
Lysander's enchanted love for Helena is from his true love for
Hermia. Metaphorically speaking, Wolfram and Hart has served as
Puck for Wes, Gunn, Angel and Lorne by "enchanting"
them away from their ethics and morality. Illyria plays the same
role for Knox. Only Spike remains the same. And it is he who observes
that they should have known about the hole in the world. Hermia
used the hole in the world as an example of the destruction of
reality, as impossible as Lysander leaving her. To continue the
metaphor, Spike sees that he should have known that the impossible
already existed, and that all the truths he held could easily
be false. Suddenly, he can be the philosophical astronaut, and
Angel can be the emotional, selfish caveman.
On a lighter note, was anyone else reminded of Monty Python when
Spike asked Drogyn what his favourite colour was?
And a question for any geography nuts (said with the highest tone
of affection): where would the other end of the well be? I'm thinking
somewhere in the middle of the Pacific, which would probably be
why Wes sent Angel and Spike to England rather than New Zealand.
Penthesilea
Replies:
[> Re: Angel 5.15 and Shakespeare -- mamcu, 18:58:58
03/02/04 Tue
Love that analogy. Although there's something in me that wants
Spike to be Puck, not because anything in the plot (your idea
works much better that way) but just because he seems so much
to be the commentator from the sidelines, like Puck.
[> Re: Angel 5.15 and Shakespeare -- angel's nibblet,
16:33:26 03/04/04 Thu
And a question for any geography nuts (said with the highest
tone of affection): where would the other end of the well be?
I'm thinking somewhere in the middle of the Pacific, which would
probably be why Wes sent Angel and Spike to England rather than
New Zealand.
Rubbish, the hole is in my back yard ;-)
Those pesky Old Ones sure do snore a lot. Have to prod them with
sticks occasionally to make them stop.
[> [> Tee hee. Do you sharpen those sticks,Nib? Careful!!
-- Jane, 20:42:58 03/04/04 Thu
[> [> [> Re: Tee hee. Do you sharpen those sticks,Nib?
Careful!! -- angel's nibblet, 02:41:36 03/05/04 Fri
Hehehe. No, generally neighbourhood children come round to do
it for a dare. Legend has it that none have ever returned alive...
Minimal risk to myself, I get my beauty sleep, and I don't have
to feed Ye Olde Ones.
It's a win-win situation!
Although, hole in the backyard does have some kind of Hellmouth
effect. I find a lot more Jehovah's witnesses coming round since
I moved here...odd... :-D
First Reactions (**SPOILERS** for "Shells"
AtS 5.16) -- Old One, 19:50:57 03/03/04 Wed
Okay, I are an idjit.
Anything that you may have read that I wrote about last week's
Angel ep, A Hole in the World? Just forget you ever saw
it, okay?
I had time to grieve for Fred this week. I had a whole episode
to grieve for Fred, the real Fred, not the blue one, and when
I thought that was over, they hit me right in the gut with Young!Fred,
and boy, did I cry...I are an idjit, and I gotta learn to trust
in Joss, before it's too late...
That said, it's going to take me a while to reconcile myself to
Dark!Wes again. Is he here to show us that his fate can't be averted,
even by the memory wipe? It's easy to think of Knox as sub-human
after what he did to Fred, but the fact is Wes cold-bloodedly
executed a human being. And he viciously stabbed a friend. It
doesn't count for anything that what Gunn did was unknowing? How
could he possibly have predicted that signing something out of
customs would result in Fred's death? It's not as if he said,
"I want my lawyer-mojo so bad, I'm willing to sacrifice Fred
for it." All he said was, "I'm willing to sign this
piece of paper for it."
And while I can't believe I'm saying this, Angel and Spike make
one hell of a team...
The main thing is, I are an idjit.
O-O
(Hmmm. As my friend Ann pointed out, that does kinda look like
Harry Potter's glasses...)
Replies:
[> How could he *not* know? (**SPOILERS** AtS 5.16)
-- Sofdog, 20:08:44 03/03/04 Wed
It doesn't count for anything that what Gunn did was unknowing?
How could he possibly have predicted that signing something out
of customs would result in Fred's death? It's not as if he said,
"I want my lawyer-mojo so bad, I'm willing to sacrifice Fred
for it." All he said was, "I'm willing to sign this
piece of paper for it."
Gunn has been in the demon-fighting business too long to claim
innocence when a pseudo-evil person says he needs an artifact
brought into the country. AI deals in artifacts all the time,
and W&H does so on an epic scale.
In his confession to Wesley, Gunn indicates that he knew the artifact
would be evil. He just didn't think the consequences would affect
his circle of friends. In effect, Gunn says "I want my lawyer-mojo
so bad, I'm willing to sacrifice someone for it."
Sure, Wesley is wrong to go around shooting people. But that's
a rubicon he crossed years ago. And the man was cracking up. He
made that very clear.
[> [> Re: How could he *not* know? (**SPOILERS** AtS
5.16) -- Claudia, 07:35:15 03/04/04 Thu
Actually, neither Gunn or Wesley's actions can be excused. Both
had crossed the line and both did it for selfish reasons. Both
are guilty.
[> [> [> You knew it was beer (**SPOILERS** AtS 5.16,
BtVS 4.5) -- mrsubjunctive, 15:51:23 03/04/04 Thu
I think the operative morality here might be that of the BtVS
episode "Beer Bad." Xander, at the end, is trying to
defend himself from Giles' "I can't believe you sold Buffy
beer" by saying that he didn't know it was *evil*, and Giles
points out that he knew it was beer. Gunn may not have known that
there was anything special about the item he helped get out of
customs, but he knew who he was getting it out for, and that they
really shouldn't have been trusted.
And then Wes is looking like kind of a repeat of Evil!Willow,
at least so far. Except that for some reason he doesn't have to
wear contact lenses and color his hair and wear freaky leather
outfits.
Though Fred does.
Obviously Alexis has a better contract with ME than Amy or Allison
do/did.
[> [> [> [> Re: You knew it was beer (**SPOILERS**
AtS 5.16, BtVS 4.5) -- Old One, 19:49:05 03/04/04 Thu
Gunn may not have known that there was anything special about
the item he helped get out of customs, but he knew who he was
getting it out for, and that they really shouldn't have been trusted.
Okay, but doesn't Gunn do stuff like that all the time as a W&H lawyer?
I mean, who else would they get to sign things in through customs?
Isn't that one of his functions? And pretty much nobody at W&H can
be trusted...
Obviously Alexis has a better contract with ME than Amy or
Allison do/did.
Unless, of course, Amy and Alyson enjoy the leather. For
that matter, Alexis might be jealous!
O-O
[> Re: First Reactions (**SPOILERS** for "Shells"
AtS 5.16) -- heywhynot, 08:51:27 03/04/04 Thu
Wesley's anger was not about the moment of weakness Gunn gave
into (getting the boost in exchange for the help with customs).
It was the fact Gunn did not say anything once Fred was "infected".
He did not own up to the sin. Precious moments/information was
lost to the group because Gunn wanted to hide what he had done.
It was not the crime itself, it was the cover-up.
As I & others have brought up before:"Those who cannot remember
the past are condemned to repeat it."--George Santayana
You throw in chaos theory and what you have is history repeating
itself with alterations in the details, which is what we are seeing
in Season 5. Everything from the birth of Connor to joining W&H is
coming back in a new form/way. It is not surprising then that
we see Dark Wes again.
[> [> Re: First Reactions (**SPOILERS** for "Shells"
AtS 5.16) -- Old One, 13:10:19 03/04/04 Thu
I'm unclear on the sequence of events in AHitW, as I don't tape
AtS (sacrilege, I know!).
I thought that Fred was very close to death and Illyria almost
in control by the time that Gunn found out (from Knox) that he
was the one responsible for signing the sarcophagus out of customs.
I could be wrong in my recollection of the timing, though. Still,
I don't think Gunn was aware that he had any connection to Illyria
until Knox told him he had.
?-?
[> [> [> Re: First Reactions (**SPOILERS** for "Shells"
AtS 5.16) -- JM, 18:00:55 03/04/04 Thu
I think you are right. But Wes doesn't know that I think. And
he's pretty sure that when he was apologizing to Gunn, Gunn was
lying to them. (I think he was buying time, like in TOGoM, hoping
to have a chance to make it not so.) And as far as Wes is concerned
(just ask Jennifer) the only thing anyone is allowed to be thinking
about is Fred.
My first spiraling thoughts - spoilers Shells
-- Ann, 20:18:22 03/03/04 Wed
So during last weekís episode I noticed contrasts. This
week I noticed spiral and looping shapes. Shells.
-Tubes behind evil doctor when Gunn is after him. There many in
his lab
-Illyriaís eyes constantly looking in a spiral pattern
around and around
-Lights on the computer in the evil doctorís lab flash
in a spiral shape
-Shells in the ìartî on hospital room wall
-Illyriaís sleeve pattern (outfit not unlike Janet Jackson,
I kept waiting for Wes to tear it off) was quilted in shell-ish
patterns. Hellish might be more correct perhaps.
-Harmonyís earrings are loops
-Floor pattern of tile when Wes confronts Illyria, opening to
her fortress/temple, quilt-like but in that spiral turning inward
pattern. Illyria wanted to go home. I think a quilt was just the
necessary pattern considering the last songís lyrics: ìdream
of a place called homeî.
I am sure there were more that I missed.
Illyria is learning about her world. She is a ìnew oneî
now looking around (really intently, big blue eyes on purpose
I think) and learning, about her human ìshellî, understanding
worship. I quite enjoyed how she said it as a command to Knox.
She is seeing grief. She has a strange connection to Wes, as they
are both experiencing great loss: she, from her previous leadership
role, to this new life and he, Fred. Illyriaís rebirth
has not been what she expected. She was stuck at ìcustomsî
literally; she has to learn the new customs of this new world.
I flashed to the scene in Planet of the Apes when CH sees the
Statue of Liberty on the shore when Illyria sees her temple for
the first time. Destroyed. The walls fell, as did the aspirations
and motivations of Fred/Illyria. From ìwalking with heroesî
as Fred to ìwalk in this worldî as Illyria -major
differences, a lot of things fell.
Wes continues the great AtS tradition of making deals with the
devil. I am so curious how that will turn out for him, and for
Fred. And for Illyria. Wes is like her mother duck. She saw him
first and has bonded with him.
My only gripe was that Wes was packing up Fredís stuff
way too soon. Most people after having a loved one die, wait a
while before attempting this effort. He is ready to do this already?
I donít think so.
Replies:
[> Re: My first spiraling thoughts - spoilers Shells
-- amber, 23:57:28 03/03/04 Wed
>My only gripe was that Wes was packing up Fredís stuff
way too soon. Most people after having a loved one die, wait a
while before attempting this effort. He is ready to do this already?
I donít think so.<
My interpretation is more that he was taking her stuff out of
Wolfram and Hart, the place that he knows is partially (if not
fully) to blame for her death. I doubt Wes is packing her stuff
for a garage sale, or to throw away, more likely he's taking it
to his place where it will be safe, preserved.
[> Re: My first spiraling thoughts - spoilers Shells
-- neaux, 05:38:22 03/04/04 Thu
well when Fred turned all anime last week.. I was wondering what
they were going for. Last night's episode was called "Shells"
and about shells.
hmmm. Maybe it would be wise to watch "GHOST IN THE SHELL"
again. I'd say it might give you an idea of where Illyria's storyline
could possibly go.
[> [> more Ghost in the Shell -- neaux, 06:22:30
03/04/04 Thu
for the interested in the Ghost in the Shell storyline:
http://www.neomythos.com/intheshell/philosophy.html
or click HERE
[> [> [> Re: more Ghost in the Shell -- Pony,
08:08:07 03/04/04 Thu
Hmm, thanks for that. There were many moments when Illyria seemed
more machine-like than demon and I wondered why they were playing
it that way.
[> [> [> [> I agree. also reminded me of the borg.
-- neaux, 08:43:40 03/04/04 Thu
[> [> [> [> Re: Shell Spoilers Buffy S3,4,6; Angel
S5-Hole in and Shells. -- Age, 13:45:55 03/04/04 Thu
This week's ep follows on with the astronaut/caveman/Wolfram and
Hart as spaceship/brutal corporate machine imagery from last week,
and this is repeated for us in the moon suit mention this week.
Last week Illyria was the metaphor for what the Angel Team was
fighting against, the human as object, hollowed and hardened to
others, part of a brutal machine for profit at others' expense;
this week she's become representative of their movement away from
the influence of Wolfram and Hart with Angel's declaring they
never should have come there and Gunn discovering the consequences
of being a cog in such a machine. It's a natural progression from
having successfully resisted becoming what you are fighting against
to letting go of that influence altogether, severing the lifeline,
so to speak, of that influence.
Illyria has left her secure spaceship/cave 'home' (the hollowed
out earth of the Well) and has donned her spacesuit, the one that
her sarcophagus(her space capsule) provides. She then goes to
make sure her lifeline is secure, but finds it severed, her army
destroyed. She is adrift in the void of space, metaphorically.
In Illyria we are seeing the beginning of the reversal of the
creation of the machine (Knox said that he was just part of a
great machine)as the Angel Team reach the point where they realize
what Wolfram and Hart has been doing to them(In fact this is implied,
in symbolic terms, in Wes's statement to Harmony regarding no
more harm coming from the sarcophagus, with the Well symbolically
equivalent to Wolfram and Hart.)
Just as the shell around Wolfram and Hart will be cracking, ie
the human shell, the mask, that Wolfram and Hart has been wearing
to upgrade its corporate image, ie the Angel Team, Illyria's hard
shell will be cracking, so to speak, as she learns to connect
with this world, her lifeline to her own having been severed.
(This is just speculation based on this week's imagery.) In some
sense the shot of Fred leaving at the end of the episode really
describes Illyria, but she just didn't know it at the time, as
Fred didn't know she'd become Illyria. Time changes everything;
it is what changes cavemen into astronauts; and astronauts into
human beings.
Isn't Illyria's situation reminiscient of other characters' falls
or reverses? Cordy began to grow when daddy got busted and the
money dried up; Spike got chipped.
Also perhaps Eve's name and the Eden metaphor isn't so far off
this year. Eden is the paradisal garden that some are trying to
get back to, like childhood, and Wolfram and Hart is the means
by which some at any cost will do to get it. This is the corrupting
influence of Wolfram and Hart's Eve who has now been thrown out
of the garden, along with her Adam, Lindsey. Note also the portrayal
of Knox as adolescent in this week's episode.
Is Harmony's change in character, influenced by Fred, to reveal
a deeper capacity for empathy and caring, symbolic also of the
retrieval of the employees, the cogs from the brutal machine or
even the adolescents, as vampires represent, from Eden? No longer
is she simply the symbol for the Hollow Men of Wolfram and Hart;
although she still wants to be an astronaut, asking for a moon
suit.
Did Illyria really have a personal identity or was she simply
the object that was created by others' worship? In this is her
character again representative of being another cog in the machine,
having no self reliance. Is this why she seemed to be so crushed
by time's defeat of her army? One would have thought that an Old
One would have scoffed at time's work and seen it as a challenge
to rebuild an army and wipe humanity off the face of the earth.
Was Spike's statement about perspective meant to lead us to see
the Old One in a different way? Or was it a representation of
how humans value those that seem far away, ie as small, insignificant,
like ants, not really the real thing, or, as the table of bottles
suggests, a mass to be consumed, leaving only the hollowed out
shells, the bottles.
Also, are we to equate the symbolism of the crystals to those
of the sixth season of Buffy, the season of the fall into adulthood?
Is this season of Angel the fall from the Ivory Tower? Angel's
fall in this week's episode?
Age.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Correction Spoilers Buffy
S3,4,6; Angel S5-Hole in and Shells. -- Age, 14:10:11 03/04/04
Thu
Make that a necro-tempered glass (read: crystal) tower that Angel
is thrown out of due to his fighting Illyria, the latter still
being at this point the metaphor representing what the Angel Team
are fighting against. The equivalence of fighting against the
Wolfram and Hart culture and being thrown out of Eden is made.
Angel lands not in a 'spacesuit' that protects him as the blood
coming from his mouth shows. He lands with all the pain and damage
that a fall into the world would bring, but as Wes suggests there's
not only pain and suffering but love and hope and surprise.
Age.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Clarification Spoilers
Buffy S3,4,6; Angel S5-Hole in and Shells. -- Age, 14:31:05
03/04/04 Thu
Okay, Lindsey and Eve as Adam and Eve. Perhaps Lindsey represents
the guy who has left Eden, has found it really tough to live in
the world, and wants to get back in? Or, perhaps he's the guy
who has left Eden, realizes that he never can get back due to
his perspective, but is bitter enough at the loss of paradise
to take out his anger on one who should be dead against the culture
that perpetuates this kind of Eden at any cost to others, namely
Angel?
Eve as employee of Wolfram and Hart is the reversal of the traditional
image of Eve as corruptor in the sense that instead of bringing
down the fall of man through the exercise of individual choice,
she tells them they have no choice but to keep the firm going
in order to retain its resources. She is pulling them not away
from Eden, but towards it. Her influence is to make them part
of the machine and not expel them into a world of personal responsibility.
Age.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Clarification
Spoilers Buffy S3,4,6; Angel S5-Hole in and Shells. -- LittleBit,
14:51:54 03/04/04 Thu
Just curious, but would the symbolism fit better if the genders
were reversed? Eve as Adam, trying to maintain both the status
quo and a relationship with Lindsey/Eve while Lindsey as Eve,
works to bring down Eden/W&H?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Roles Spoilers
Angel S5-Welcome,Hole in,Shells. -- Age, 20:00:44 03/04/04
Thu
I'm not sure what Lindsey's motivation is. It seems that he was
mostly focused on Angel being at Wolfram and Hart instead of him.
Also, I took Eve's name to mean we are to see her in Eve's role.
The traditional bite into the apple, recreated in the first episode
of the season, reverses the expulsion of the Genesis story because
this is an attempt to recreate Eden. These are figures, especially
Lindsey, who have come back to the garden, so to speak, post fall,
post childhood. They, well Lindsey with Eve's help, are trying
to regain something that has been lost, bitter at knowing someone
else has been given it, and wanting to get it back but only on
their terms, playing the odds as free agent(hence Lindsey's disgust
with Angel as CEO puppet.)
Eve as employee is being used symbolically to play the corruptor
role, but her true motivations are linked with Lindsey's. Eve
isn't strictly interested in preserving the status quo, but is
really playing a role as employee to make Lindsey's plan work.
Lindsey as Adam may indeed want to preserve the status quo, but
for himself at Angel's expense(playing the odds and coming out
on top); and Eve, unlike her pre-fall Genesis counterpart who
brought about childhood's end through personal choice, may be
just going along with her Adam, no longer acting as the spiritual
bringer of human responsibility, but willing to play the role
as employee corruptor, desiring to go back to a time before suffering,
death and the messiness of life, or is simply someone who is in
love and willing to preserve the relationship no matter what the
cost is to others.
Still, if you think about it, the mythical Adam and Eve were thrown
out of Eden because the jealous God was concerned that the two
would take over the house, so to speak. Humans were seen as threats.
Perhaps Lindsey and Eve are more traditional than I thought, acting
as the possible usurpers of the Genesis story, willing to do whatever
they can to get what they want. This is why Eve can fit into a
role as employee, but Lindsey has to remain hidden; she can deceive
the Senior Partners by seeming to fit into the machinery, but
is secretly plotting to take over. I'm not sure on this, but there
it is anyway; it does seem to fit in with the theme of deception
highlighted by Illyria. It all depends on how you interpret the
Eden myth.
Hope that answers your question.
Age.
Wow...I actually liked 5.15 and 5.16 better than
the Becoming -- Cobra Commander, 21:18:50 03/03/04 Wed
Sure...the plot, pacing and structure was better back in the day
during the big stuff for BTVS seasons 2 and 3....but content-wise,
I liked what happened on the past two Angel episodes even more.
Season 5 has been unpredictable and surprised me a way that the
Buffyverse hasn't done going all the way back to Season 2 of Buffy...neat.
I do hope that SMG does NOT show up for the finale. ATS has moved
beyond BTVS and doesn't need it (or her). They've got the world
to save and all. Romance can wait...there'd be no real point in
Buffy showing up. I'd rather see them focus on Angel and Spike
and the rest of the cast.
And Wes is just the coolest ever. Better than Giles, even.
Replies:
[> Re: Wow...I actually liked 5.15 and 5.16 better than
the Becoming -- JM, 17:33:39 03/04/04 Thu
Wow, what a nice thing to say. I admit to also being surprised.
I think they are exploring a different type of grief than they
have before. Or at least a different way of dealing with it.
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I'm not a physicist, but I do like to pretend
that I'm one (***Spoilers*** A5.16) -- OnM, 22:18:33 03/03/04
Wed
And I seem to recall some basic principle of physics which states
that:
Matter/Energy can neither be created nor destroyed,
it can only change form.
Fred: Why can't I stay?
I think that maybe she can, and that she isn't 'gone'. But her
'form' will change. This could be a very daring story arc,
it already makes me think of BtVS S6, and what they attempted
to do there (and mostly succeeded in doing).
BTW, I feel that Shells is one of the very best eps not
only of the season, but of the entire series. I am extremely
impressed, especially if they end up going where I think they
are going with this.
(And a special thanks to all of the folks who have posted to date
with the Shakespeare background and conjecture based thereon.
I really think you are on to something significant.)
Replies:
[> A Very Nice Twist -- Buffyboy, 02:48:17 03/04/04
Thu
ìBTW, I feel that Shells is one of the very best eps not
only of the season, but of the entire series. I am extremely impressed,
especially if they end up going where I think they are going with
this.î
I completely agree. This, what amounts to a two-part, episode
was extraordinary. A major character has died--not the first one
in the Buffyverse to be sure, though this time there is an unprecedented
twist. But, and hereís the twist, a new character, Illyria,
has been born. Illyria has lost the very reason for her existence:
her ancient kingdom has been destroyed. She is now in a position
where she needs to construct a new identity. This new identity
will be partially based upon the fragments of Fredís experience
she still remembers, combined with the realization the loss of
her previous sense of self, her extraordinary superpowers and
who knows what else. Joss was certainly correct when he indicated
that he was going to give Amy Acker a chance to show her acing
abilities. Looks like an actorís dream to me.
[> The Other Important Law of Thermodynamics -- dmw,
05:50:24 03/04/04 Thu
Matter/Energy can neither be created nor destroyed,
it can only change form.
I dislike this statement of the first law of thermodynamics,
preferring for technical reasons (global versus local conservation)
the more direct English translation of dE/dt=0 as "the amount
of energy in the universe cannot be chang over time."
However, while the first law could be read as offering hope for
Fred, the second law, that the change in entropy is always nonnegative,
takes it away. While the mass/energy that was Fred's body remains
in a different form, the information that made up her personality
may have been completely lost as the upgrade doctor stated. If
you dump your hard drive in blast furnace, you won't lose any
mass/energy, but you will have lost all the information. The brain
starts losing the information encoded in its protein chains even
at high fever temperatures; nothing would be left it it was liquefied
along with her other internal organs.
Returning more directly to the episode, this two-part episode
is definitely my favorite of an otherwise lackluster season. I'm
excited at the prospect of seeing where they go with this transformation.
(And a special thanks to all of the folks who
have posted to date with the Shakespeare background and conjecture
based thereon. I really think you are on to something significant.)
While I don't recall any mention of Illyria from Shakespeare,
I'm more familiar with the classics and I do remember the Illyrians
for fighting the Spartans in the Peloponesian War. They were quite
formidable until they were defeated by Phillip of Macedon (father
of Alexander the Great), then several times by the Romans at the
behest of the Greeks. Finally, Rome under Augustus Caesar annexed
Illyria as part of securing the frontiers of the new empire. Along
with Dalmatia, it became the Roman provice of Illyricum.
[> [> But them's OUR rules -- Darby, 06:19:19
03/04/04 Thu
For our universe - see Buffy - Bargaining. In the
Buffyverse, a significant amount of the person resides
in the soul (which is why such a big deal was made about the soul
here). They have set their rules, they're certainly allowed to
live or die by them.
But keep in mind, one of the Buffyverse rules is that the characters
don't always know the rules - what they tell us may not
be the entire truth. We do know two things: 1) demon souls
don't generally work the same way as human souls; 2) Illyria's
knowledge of how humans work is limited.
But I share OnM's interest in seeing AA play out the remainder
of the series as a new character - but I'm troubled with the level
of power she's been given. I'd have been happier to find her powerful
enough to get away from our Champions-in-Residence, working toward
the power boost accessing her Kingdom would give her, and then...well,
you can finish it. New character, limited deus ex machina
capabilities.
They could power her down by tying her power to her worshippers
- with Know gone and knowledge spreading that her destiny is screwed,
her remaining followers will, I dunno, be off to a Gibson movie.
Wouldn't it be neat if she becomes absolutely dependent on the
worship of Wesley, and tries to expand her fanbase through Wolfram
& Hart?
[> [> [> And also in the land of Buffyverse physics...
-- Darby, 05:12:15 03/05/04 Fri
Did anyone else get the distinct feeling that ME gave Illyria
"time control" powers specifically to give them
a Superman the Movie way out of this?
[> [> Re: The Other Important Law of Thermodynamics
-- heywhynot, 13:18:28 03/04/04 Thu
The second law does not preclude the possibility of Fred's return,
just makes it very unlikely. The tendency is for the entropy of
a closed system to increase. Of course unless you include the
whole universe, we don't live in a closed system (hence we even
live at all). To build such a high degree of order (such as Fred's
mind) requires lots of effort just to overcome the the tendency
towards disorder as you point out. In the hard drive example,
you can replace the information, you have to track it all down
again. Energy is expended but it can be done. It is like 52 card
pick up on a much larger scale. You can get the cards back in
a deck but boy it sucks to be the one who has to do it. The other
major obstacle becomes time, it would just take too long to rebuild
Fred's brain to make it possible on a human scale. It is both
the thermodynamics and kinetics that make it an impossible feat
in practical terms.
E!Online Save One Show poll update -- abt,
01:21:17 03/05/04 Fri
E!Online
poll update, says we have until Wednesday. If you've already
voted, but not yet e-mailed Kristin to say why you voted
for Angel, please e-mail as well, getting the highest number
of votes will be even better if it is backed up by the highest
number of actual e-mails too. Your e-mail doesn't have to be very
good, it just needs to be there, to be counted, to help
prove just how many Angel fans there are, in a way that
votes alone cannot do. My e-mail wasn't fantastic, I sent it anyway.
Don't worry about getting the perfectly worded draft, just get
it in there today.
I think it's unlikely we'll get Angel:The Series season
6 on our TV screens next year.
I am campaigning
anyway, and here is why: look at the bigger picture, this is the
last chance we have to really raise our voices in support of the
Angelverse, and make ourselves heard to the people that matter.
Showing that there is a strong demand for Buffyverse/Mutant Enemy
stories etc. might just benefit us in the long run. The Firefly
movie is now on, who knows what else the future might hold if
we make a big noise now, keep Angel's profile high, and let everyone
know that there's an audience here waiting?
So I'm going to keep going.
Replies:
[> Go you! -- Masq, 09:31:38 03/05/04 Fri
I voted in the poll several days ago, but since you suggested
it, I went back yesterday and emailed in my reasons for voting
for "Angel". It was very similar to what I've been writing
on postcards, but it summed up my feelings:
Kristin,
Angel the Series is one of the most philosophically sophisticated
shows on television, a worthy successor to its mother show: Buffy
the Vampire Slayer.
The story Joss Whedon is telling is not over. When season 5 ends,
it will leave the characters barely recovered from a very morally
ambiguous place. We need to see how they move on from that and
find the heroes inside of them again.
Joss deserves a chance to take his story to its natural conclusion.
Save Angel: the Series!
[> [> Re: Go you! -- Korina,
11:00:48 03/05/04 Fri
Wow, Masq, that was much more succinct and articulate than what
I just wrote. I must visit this forum more often; maybe some of
it will rub off on me! :-)
Korina
(posting newbie)
[> [> [> Welcome! -- Masquerade, 11:47:22 03/05/04
Fri
[> NEW: Another poll at yahoo, bottom left hand corner,
which show should be saved? -- abt, 02:04:37 03/06/04 Sat
NEW: Another poll at yahoo, bottom
left hand corner, which show should be saved?
[> [> Moving this to top of board... -- Masq, 08:49:25
03/06/04 Sat
[> And don't forget to vote for Angel on Space -- Ames,
08:49:10 03/06/04 Sat
www.spacecast.com - the Canadian satellite/cable Space Channel
Little Help? Spoilers for "Shells"
-- Hauptman, 06:20:24 03/04/04 Thu
I am a tad confused (not unusual). What happened when Angel reached
out to Team Slayer for help? Great to even hear the names Willow
and Giles, but I couldn't follow the thread of thought in that
phone call. Willow was on another plane? Okay. That is one hurdle.
But I got the impression that Giles was actually refusing to help
because Angel was still with Wolfram and Hart. I was just focusing
on the show again when Angel smashed the phone against the wall
and said "We're on our own." Is that what happend? I
found that shocking frankly. I'm still not used to Angel being
in a gray area as far as the Scoobies are concerned.
Replies:
[> Re: Little Help? Spoilers for "Shells"
-- CW, 06:45:57 03/04/04 Thu
It isn't 100% clear, but it seems Giles was giving Angel the run
around and in the end he either made it clear he wouldn't help
Wolfram and Hart or anyone involved with it, or made it clear
the run around wasn't going to end any time soon. Seems a tad
strange that Giles would be so stubborn when it appeared at the
time it was end-of-the-world stuff again.
[> [> What Giles might have said... -- Ames, 07:08:28
03/04/04 Thu
That's what was implied. But in fairness Giles could also have
said something like:
"Aren't you still with W&H? ... Haven't you been telling
us that you're running W&H because you have all these fantastic
resources now to help you fight evil? But you expect us to drop
everything rush to help you out every time you have a problem,
wherever we happen to be in the world, whatever other important
things we're doing? Get real!"
[> Hypocricy as a plot device -- Darby, 08:07:51
03/04/04 Thu
Just as a matter of real-world logistics, ME has to somehow keep
the non-available Buffyverse characters away, so they have trumped
up this "We won't help you if you're with W&H" mantra
to cover. This from a group of characters that used chipped, non-souled
Spike for years, used the Initiative (and talked about it later),
and uses Andrew now.
I do think that it was a mistake to give in to nostalgia by having
Giles on the other end. It would have worked better to have Angel
talking to Andrew, who had already touted the new regime policy
but might be inclined to overstate it and enforce it when it isn't
really logical (converts often make the biggest fanatics, after
all).
Also, a frustrating Angel-Andrew conversation where all we heard
was Angel's side could have been much funnier without minimizing
the point. As we can see on this thread, it's hard to "hear"
Giles' side, but even with Angel's side the same (and it didn't
have to be), isn't it easier to "hear" Andrew on the
other end?
[> [> Re: Hypocricy as a plot device -- Rob, 08:28:00
03/04/04 Thu
This from a group of characters that used chipped, non-souled
Spike for years, used the Initiative (and talked about it later),
and uses Andrew now.
Yes, but there's a difference between using people that
might be or at one time were evil for your purposes and joining
a multi-dimensional organization that has been one of the major
forces of evil in the world since the beginning of time. Add to
that the fact that Giles himself may have never fully recovered
his opinion of Angel since the second season. Joining W&H might
just be a confirmation for him that soulled or not soulled, Angel
can't be trusted.
Rob
[> [> [> Granted -- Darby, 08:56:58 03/04/04
Thu
It could very well be as you say, but does the whole thing really
work for you? I find it pulls me out of the narrative as
I watch an explanation, not for why Willow can't help, but to
cover when Alyson Hannigan isn't available, or why we can't even
hear Tony Head as a voice on the phone.
Partly, Wolfram & Hart have had no real presence in the Buffy
part of the Buffyverse, so this reaction has no emotional resonance.
It doesn't play as well as, say, Faith having a real problem as
the Scoobies reconstitute the Watchers Council. Or Faith being
the one to react to the W&H stuff, since she has had contact (but
never seems to have seen them as the Buffyverse version of Mordor,
so it doesn't even really play for her to be the source of these
feelings).
The real problem is that, last year when the apocalyptic events
of each show never seemed to show a blip on the other show, that
seemed forced as well. I can't lose the feeling that this sort
of thing can be done, but this approach isn't really working.
[> [> [> [> Re: Granted -- Jenny's Love, 09:42:04
03/04/04 Thu
I don't recall, but are the Scoobies reforming the Watcher's Council?
We might assume that the robot of Wesely's father was actually
the truth about he (the real senior Wyndham-Pryce) helping to
rebuild it, but did Andrew indicate that they were reforming a
new actual bona-fide legitimate Watcher's Council. Or is he and
the Scoobies just a looser network training the Slayers and recruiting
others to help them? Has Giles hooked up with other former Watchers
like Wesley's father, or are there possibly two factions representing
the former Watcher's C--the Scoobies/Giles/Slayers they are training,
and the former Watchers such as Wesley's father?
[> [> [> [> [> Assumptions - I've made a few
-- Darby, 10:15:31 03/04/04 Thu
It just me playing "Season 8" extrapolation - it seems
a natural progression from the Generalissima Buffy from Season
7, who might have shared the Power, but was she willing to share
the power? How do you deal with multiple awakened Chosen Ones
without an organization to enforce rules, to somehow contain the
dangerous ones? No one asked the nutty Slayer whether she wanted
to go or not - that strikes me as something the old Watchers would
do. Did do, in fact, with Faith, if you don't count the attempted
murder thing.
[> [> [> Re: Hypocricy as a plot device -- Finn
Mac Cool, 08:58:03 03/04/04 Thu
Two other points for consideration:
First, unlike Spike, Andrew, or the Initiative, Wolfram & Hart
has developed quite a rep for using and decieving people. The
others were more straight forward, whereas W&H might make you
think you're doing the right thing when actually you're playing
right into their hands.
Second, Angel's primary reason for wanting Willow there was to
resurrect Fred. From Season 6, we all know what Giles's attitude
towards resurrection is.
[> [> [> [> Re: Hypocricy as a plot device
-- Claudia, 12:37:16 03/04/04 Thu
"Second, Angel's primary reason for wanting Willow there
was to resurrect Fred. From Season 6, we all know what Giles's
attitude towards resurrection is."
I agree. Not only was there Giles' attitude to consider, but Buffy
and Willow's, as well. Buffy's resurrection had left its mark
on the Scoobies. And Spike should have known better.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Hypocricy as a plot device
-- Hauptman, 12:44:32 03/04/04 Thu
But the situation isn't the same as Buffy's. Buffy made a sacrifice
to save the world and her sister. She was rewarded with the nice
afterlife. Fred was torn away by demonic forces. Sure it messed
with Buffy's head that she was back on the cold bright earth after
he stint in the nice place. But we have no confirmation that Fred
is in a good place. Quite the opposite actually. As I remember
it, Spike wasn't upset that Buffy came back, but that Willow (who
was not known for sucessful spells) had used the black arts to
resurect her.
He knows that Willow got the last big spell right and awakend
the other slayers worldwide. I think he would trust her to get
it right this time.
[> [> [> [> [> [> What did Angel ask?
-- Darby, 13:49:53 03/04/04 Thu
Remember, this was still relatively early in the episode - Angel
was still convinced that Fred had just been displaced and could
be put back (even if Wesley and Knox didn't) - it didn't seem
like he really saw it as a resurrection, but more like the spell
that put his soul back in Angelus - isn't that why he immediately
thought of Willow as someone who could do it?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> We didn't hear the
exact request.... (spoilers for Shells) -- Briar Rose, 14:11:43
03/04/04 Thu
Before Angel made the call, he stated that (paraphrasing) : If
anyone could bring Fred back from the dead, it would be Willow.
He continued that flow as to what he was requesting with saying
that Buffy was brought back from the dead and it could be done
again for Fred.
But the conversation on the phone seemed to leave out exactly
what Angel was asking for Willow's help with. Between the cross
conversations and the fact that Angel was partly off mic through
the entire thing, it's impossible to say if he actually detailed
why he wanted to speak to Willow, except that we heard that she
was "unavailable" because she was on another dimensional
plain.
I agree that it's more hypocrisy between Giles and Angel with
W&H, but that is basically conjecture because there didn't
seem to be any actual dialog that confirmed that.
I also agree that I am getting rather tired of all the Sunnydale/Scoobie
references and then it leading no where's ville. I expect better
from ME and this dependance on adding the former BtVS storylines
to "increase the tension" (or whatever they THINK they
are doing with it?) is tiring.
I complained about this when they kept invoking "The Buffy"
in the first few eps, and it's becoming even more unamusing as
the series goes on this season. It starts to feel like all of
a sudden they don't thnk the show can make it on it's own without
trying to boost it with Scoobie/BtVS references.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: We didn't
hear the exact request.... (spoilers for Shells) -- Ann, 18:50:47
03/04/04 Thu
"she was "unavailable" because she was on another
dimensional plain."
Willow is now teleporting around different dimensions and we now
have an old one in the present day. Interesting timetable/confluence
of events. Depending the good vs evil outcome of Illyria, these
two women may be able to do what the WC and AI in W&H have been
unable to do as someone else (apologies to who it was, can't remember)
pointed out. I find it interesting that we find out about this
great change in Willow, more and better powers, as Illyria comes
into the story. What else did this sarcophogus release? Or (unspoiled
speculation) did the spell Willow used to empower the slayers
empower much more? Unintended consequences. Perhaps it allowed
for Knox's enabling the release of the old one. Maybe slayer power
is old one power. This would tie up some BtVS storylines about
the first slayer left unanswered.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: We didn't
hear the exact request.... (spoilers for Shells) -- shambleau,
11:29:36 03/05/04 Fri
My mileage varies from Briar Rose's on the BtVS mentions. I don't
feel it lessens AtS to have Buffy references, it deepens it and
adds even more complexity. I did a count a while ago, and came
up with sixteen characters who started on Buffy and who have appeared
on Angel. These worlds are intertwined. Joss thinks so too and
has tried to get BtVS characters to appear. (I don't think that
counts as a spoiler, since I'm talking about the past and I don't
know what's planned for the last eps).
The reason that there were few mentions of Buffy in the previous
two seasons was WB pettiness. Although they allowed some very
brief mention of the arc on BtVS when Willow showed last year,
that was most likely because the WB knew by then that the show
was ending and was no longer competition for them.
If the objection is that the references are leading nowhere, I
don't agree. At least, if the series had continued, I think the
tension between the two groups would have led to some great episodes.
Even now, it already has. Angel would OF COURSE think of Willow
once Fred had died. The Scoobie distrust allows the writers to
go in a plausibly different direction with Fred than resurrection.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: We
didn't hear the exact request.... (spoilers for Shells) --
Jane, 22:11:04 03/05/04 Fri
I don't have a problem with the Scooby/Buffy mentions. The two
worlds are, as shambleau points out, intertwined. To me it would
be stranger if there was no reference to Buffy, since she was/is
the motivator for Spike's soulgetting, and Angel's desire to do
good. I found it entirely plausible that Angel would contact Giles
for help. I was a bit shocked that Giles gave Angel the brushoff,
but that evidence of distrust serves to isolate the W&H gang from
the Scoobys, and make Angel realize what he has lost by his choice.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Fred's Soul -- Claudia,
15:51:48 03/05/04 Fri
"But we have no confirmation that Fred is in a good place.
Quite the opposite actually. As I remember it, Spike wasn't upset
that Buffy came back, but that Willow (who was not known for sucessful
spells) had used the black arts to resurect her."
If we're talking about Willow insuring that Fred's soul is in
a good place, I have no problem with that. But resurrecting Fred?
I have a problem. I had a problem with Buffy's resurrection. And
sometimes I wonder if Spike would have been better off dead. Or
at least had his spirit put to rest.
I cannot help but feel that resurrecting Fred will bring nothing
but more trouble for the Gang. I realize that many of you want
her back . . . but I think she should remain dead.
[> [> [> Re: Hypocricy as a plot device -- LittleBit,
14:25:30 03/04/04 Thu
The difficulty I had with the stance I'm assuming Giles took in
refusing to help is that it seems far too similar to the absolute
refusal of the old Quentin Travers WC when asked for assistance
in aiding Angel. "We do not save vampires." It seemed
that Giles was saying, "We do not help those associated with
the W&H evil empire."
The larger issue was that while I, personally, believe that Angel
was requesting assistance from Willow in locating and preserving
Fred's soul, I have to assume that at least some background
of the event was given. I find it very hard to believe that the
'important things' the new WC was doing were of such magnitude
that the emergence of one of the Old Ones into this world
would be considered a trivial event, not worthy of their attention.
[> [> [> [> Well... -- Doug, 14:51:24 03/04/04
Thu
...Angel may have been focusing so much on trying to bring Fred
back that mentioning the fact that the thing that killed her is
a powerful Old One that's awakened slipped his mind and he didn't
mention it.
Not sure how likely this is though.
If Angel did tell Giles about Illyria my best guess is that Giles
hopes that Angel will throw W&H's resources at Illyria and
weaken her while taking heavy losses, therefore making Illyria
an easier target for groups of Slayers. Greater good is served
by W&H weakened and Illyria in the ground: Astronaut view. On
the flip side it's not as if Giles is going to lose anyone he
cares about; he doesn't know Fred or Gunn, he never liked Wesley
very much, he thinks Angel has turned to evil, and even if he
knew Spike was alive he wanted him dead anyway. No one he cares
about is going to get hurt: Caveman view.
Maybe I'm not being fair; but go back and watch Season 7, or any
of the earlier episodes where Giles goes a little dark, and you
tell me he wouldn't use Angel and every man, woman, and other
in W&H as cannon-fodder if the other choice was exposing his Slayers
to additional risk.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Well... -- skeeve, 16:10:15
03/04/04 Thu
From Doug:
"..Angel may have been focusing so much on trying to bring
Fred back that mentioning the fact that the thing that killed
her is a powerful Old One that's awakened slipped his mind and
he didn't mention it.
Not sure how likely this is though."
Quite likely.
When counting the cost of saving Fred by attracting Illyria,
the possibly that many would die if they didn't save Fred
was never mentioned.
My recollection is that Wes and Giles parted on friendly terms
and with a common enemy, the WC.
Having Wes talk to Giles might have been a better choice.
That said, it doesn't really matter.
ME will have the characters behaving in whatever way
is necessary to drive the plot.
[> [> [> [> Actually, I thought... -- DorianQ,
16:41:25 03/04/04 Thu
that worked rather well. They don't have the ability to bring
any of the Buffy actors in anymore (probably), so they have to
keep them away somehow and since they are supposedly aroung the
globe, so why wouldn't they be in L.A.? The plot device is a bit
weird but effective. Plus, it makes a nice contrast between the
Fang Gang running the newly reformed W&H trying to change the
company's evil ways and the Scoobies reforming and running the
Watcher's Council and trying to change the old company's evil
ways. Neither is being very successful.
Question about Shells -- Elizabeth, 07:28:22
03/04/04 Thu
Does anyone know what song was playing at the end of the episode?
Replies:
[> No, sorry -- JM, 17:42:33 03/04/04 Thu
Sorry to be of no help, I just didn't want you to feel lonely:-)
Could it be another S McLachlan? She's their montage of pain girl.
[> Ponygirl says above that it's "A Place Called Home"
by Kim Richey -- d'Herblay, 21:24:24 03/04/04 Thu
DeKnight posts on Bronze about which parts of
"Shells" Joss wrote & directed ("Shells" spoilers)
-- Rob, 07:53:45 03/04/04 Thu
You can find all these quotes scattered around http://www.bronzebeta.com/Archive/BronzeArchive1078407891.htm
Do a "Joss" word search if you want to locate them yourself:
1) "You caught me! Joss wrote the perspective line! WHY MUST
HE TAKE EVERYTHING GOOD IN MY WORLD?! Oh, wait ñ he actually
gives me everything good. Sorry. My bad...Joss and I wrote the
scene on the plane together and he directed it. Very well."
[Rob's Note: I just knew Joss had written Spike's
"perspective" line!]
2) "Joss actually suggested the whole montage. I wrote and
directed all the stuff leading up to the heartbreak scene where
Fred drives away. That was Joss."
3) "Joss and I wrote the final Illyria/Wes scene and I did
have the immense pleasure of directing it."
4) "Joss did write and direct the opening two scenes in the
apartment."
I'm not surprised at all that Joss had such a hand in making this
immensely brilliant episode, and the scenes he ended up helping
write or writing himself were the very ones that hadfelt
most Jossian to me when I watched them last night. This is also
of course a good reminder that just because we see a writer/directer
credit on the show doesn't mean that that person or persons alone
made the episode.
Rob
Replies:
[> Re: DeKnight posts on Bronze about which parts of "Shells"
Joss wrote & directed ("Shells" spoilers) -- Pony,
08:19:02 03/04/04 Thu
I knew that perspective line was Joss too! It just had that feel.
Also Wes' meaning of life speech at the end felt very much like
a Joss statement.
[> [> Thanks, Rob. Interesting to know. -- Jane,
20:38:54 03/04/04 Thu
[> Re: Thanks, Rob. -- aliera, 09:56:52 03/04/04
Thu
Wolfram and Hart -- Jenny's Love, 09:22:57
03/04/04 Thu
Assumedly, Illyria was referring not to the modern law firm, but
to the "senior partners", which is logically what "wolfram
and hart" ("wolf ram and hart") denotes as well.
Likley a very ancient and powerful evil. They were a minor power
contendor during the time of the 'Old Ones', however, they gained
much influence over the eons since.
Replies:
[> Re: Wolfram and Hart -- angel's nibblet, 14:22:15
03/05/04 Fri
Assumedly, Illyria was referring not to the modern law firm,
but to the "senior partners", which is logically what
"wolfram and hart" ("wolf ram and hart") denotes
as well. Likley a very ancient and powerful evil. They were a
minor power contendor during the time of the 'Old Ones', however,
they gained much influence over the eons since.
Ooooooo, do you think maybe the senior partners are giant demons
or spirits in the form of a wolf, ram and hart?
*just gets it now*
That would be super cool.
I thought that at the time she was referring to the three animals...lol
Wow, good episode! (spoilers) -- Spike Lover,
09:50:01 03/04/04 Thu
The first episode this year that I have REALLY liked. (That is
not a criticism of the other eps.)
I was impressed with the actress's range that was playing Fred
and is now playing Illeia(?)
That last minute of conversation between Ill & Wes was almost
as good as any scene with Wes and Lila. The possibilites are delicious,
as Ill turns to the emotionally traumatized and vulnerable Wesley(who
is definately having some very 'dark gray moments' -and you know
where the relationship with Lilah went. He was unable to 'rescue'
Lilah. Will he be able to save Illeia?
Replies:
[> Re: Wow, good episode! (spoilers) -- Claudia, 12:31:44
03/04/04 Thu
"That last minute of conversation between Ill & Wes was almost
as good as any scene with Wes and Lila."
Really? I wasn't that impressed. Both actors did competent work,
but there seemed to be a lack of connection between AA and AD.
[> Re: Wow, good episode! (spoilers) -- JM, 17:40:47
03/04/04 Thu
I've always worshipped AD. But I always thought AA was at the
very least the second best on the show. Like AD she can take anything
thrown at her, good and bad writing, challenging and back ground.
At the end of WitW I thought it was a different actress. I miss
Fred. I'm grieving, but I do feel for Illyria.
Good point about Lilah. I hadn't even thought that. Please don't
let him feel for her. What a conflict. She IS the thing that killed
Fred still.
[> [> Re: Wow, good episode! (spoilers) -- angel's
nibblet, 02:28:12 03/05/04 Fri
At the end of WitW I thought it was a different actress. I
miss Fred. I'm grieving, but I do feel for Illyria.
Agreed on both counts! Amy Acker blew me away these last two episodes,
and I though all the actors did a superb job, and there were tears
definitely more than once.
Illyria is strange; a sympathetic monster.
It kinda reminds me of a story book I had read to me as a child
about a Taniwha (Maori mythical beast, kinda a dragon that lives
in the water, some were evil and killed people,while others, like
this one, helped them and were their friends) who goes to sleep
and wakes up a couple hundred years later to find all his kind
dead, the people he loves gone, and the world he knows altered
beyond recognition. After some aimless wandering and much confusion,
he is wallowing in despair and about to go back to sleep again
when he is struck by the beauty of the city lights at night, and
realises all is not lost and that there are still reasons for
living.
I loved that final note of uncertainty, and of hope.
I just remember it making me cry, the thought of being so lost
in the world, of having everything you know stripped away from
you. Then again, I was a very sensitive child- when it came to
stories at least :-D
My point though, was, that yes I feel for Illyria, in some strange
way, even though she has caused such grief, simply because she
is so lost. This is almost the way that I viewed Faith circa Season
4 of Buffy - she'd done wrong, certainly, but there was this lost-little-girl
quality to her that broke my heart.
Obviously there are some major, major differences between Illyria
and Faith, but in some ways they work in the same way in the way
that they draw emotion.
Random thoughts on "Shells" - Spoilers
for "Shells" -- Vegeta, 10:29:37 03/04/04 Thu
Had a couple of Random thoughts regarding Shells:
1. What's up with Lorne? He excuses himself from the episode,
basically, and then we find him drinking heavily and looking kinda
guilty. Does he also have more inside info on this then he is
letting on? I mean the inside parties have already been identified,
but I found his actions this episode to be kinda suspect.
2. I think Gunn got what was coming to him. He let on that he
had a pretty good idea what the sarcophagus was for. He just didn't
think it would happen to Fred. He's very lucky Wes didn't gut
him worse. I think it was appropriate for Gunn to be consoled
by a vampire in the hospital. He has emptied his soul, luckily
redemption is always available in the Buffyverse.
3. It looks very likely that Illyria will be a good guy in the
near future. A likely ambiguous one, but a good guy none the less.
I don't think having a full fledged old one demon on the Fang
Gang will score them points with Team Buffy, however. So, if Illyria
isn't the big bad, who is?
Replies:
[> Re: Random thoughts on "Shells" - Spoilers
for "Shells" -- LadyLavinia, 10:31:00 03/04/04
Thu
After watching this episode, I found myself wishing for Season
2 - when Gunn and Wes were close friends. Before they met Fred.
Now that I think of it, I wish to God that they had never met
her.
Is Gunn to blame for what happened? Of course, he is. He allowed
his insecurity to lead him into making some pretty bad choices.
But Angel can also take some of the blame for all of the many
acts he had committed that led them to this situation - his S2
fall from grace that led to Connor's conception and his deal with
Wolfram & Hart that led to the gang's employment with the law
firm and their mind. Wesley can take the blame, as well. It was
his kidnapping of Connor that played a large part in the events
that led to them ending up at W&H. And Fred can take the blame,
as well. Her fickle behavior regarding men - especially toward
Knox, probably led him to set her up with the sarcophogus.
Do I feel that Wes should not be blamed for his actions in this
episode? Hell no! If Gunn has to accept what he has done, so does
Wes. But I suspect that Wesley, being the person that he is, will
never acknowledge this. I understand why his grief led him to
commit cold-blooded murder of Knox and the attempted murder of
Gunn. But I refuse to excuse him. I wonder how he'll react when
he remembers his kidnapping of Connor and realize that his actions
also contributed to what happened.
As for Fred - to be honest, I felt nothing over her death. It's
funny. I was upset over Cordelia's death. Hell, I still get a
little teary when I see Charisma Carpenter in old BtVS and AtS
episodes. I get teary when I think of Doyle's death . . . or Tara's.
Or even Darla, Lilah and Anya's ("Selfless" is a very
depressing episdoe, by the way)deaths. But I didn't feel a thing
over Fred. She was nice, but quite frankly, her character never
did anything for me. And her romantic escapades of S3, S4 and
S5 really got on my nerves.
One last thing - whether as Fred or Illyria, Amy Acker really
doesn't have much chemistry with Alexis Denisof.
[> [> Re: Random thoughts on "Shells" - Spoilers
for "Shells" -- Tower, 11:18:45 03/04/04 Thu
Well, while I wholeheartedly disagree with your opinions on Fred
and Amy Acker, I'll accept that as just a difference of opinion.
However, I take a great deal of offense to placing ANY blame on
Fred for what happened to her. She was FICKLE? Are you kidding
me? Since when is "fickle" justification for murder.
Knox destroyed her soul...one of the worst things I've ever seen
anyone do in the Buffyverse.
Frankly this arguement ranks up there with "look what she
was wearing...she was asking for it."
[> [> [> Re: Random thoughts on "Shells"
- Spoilers for "Shells" -- Gyrus, 11:34:38 03/04/04
Thu
I take a great deal of offense to placing ANY blame on Fred
for what happened to her. She was FICKLE? Are you kidding me?
Since when is "fickle" justification for murder.
I have to agree with Tower on this one. Going out with Knox a
few times doesn't make Fred deserving of what happened to her
-- the spiritual equivalent of being raped, murdered, and dismembered.
I don't think Angel can be blamed for Gunn's decisions, either.
At the end of S4, Gunn was the first one to say that he would
join W&H, and that he would do it regardless of what the others
decided. He jumped into this situation headlong; nobody pushed
him.
[> [> [> [> Re: Random thoughts on "Shells"
- Spoilers for "Shells" -- heywhynot, 12:00:38
03/04/04 Thu
And why was Gunn so willing? They were giving him what he thought
he lacked: A position/power/glory greater than being the "muscle".
The same reason which he went back to the doc allowing for the
Sarcophagus to arrive in the lab.
Given Angel and Connor's strength, was Gunn really ever the muscle?
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Random thoughts on "Shells"
- Spoilers for "Shells" -- Claudia, 12:20:31
03/04/04 Thu
"Given Angel and Connor's strength, was Gunn really ever
the muscle?"
What strength are you talking about? Physical or otherwise?
[> [> [> [> Did Not Deserve -- LadyLavinia,
12:49:13 03/04/04 Thu
I never said that Fred deserved what happened to her. Of course
she didn't. But let's face it - her habit of jumping from one
man to the other did contribute to her death. If she had not dated
or dumped Knox in the way she did, I wonder if he would have set
her up in the first place. I think he did out of revenge for the
way she rushed to Wesley, without bothering to tell him that they
were over.
One of the reasons why I had never warmed to Fred in the first
place, was her attitude toward the men in her life. Has anyone
ever wondered why she seemed to jump from one guy to the next?
The only time she didn't was between "Orpheus" (S4)
and "Life of the Party" (S5).
[> [> [> [> [> But wasn't the reason that Knox...
-- Nirvana 1 *being brave and delurking*, 12:58:30 03/04/04
Thu
picked her for Illyria because he loved her? Wouldn't that have
happened even if she didn't go out with him? Would you be making
this same argument had Knox turned out to be the messiah?
I'm sorry, but I think that the idea of her being seemingly punished
for (supposedly) going from man to man, asthough there is something
absolutely wrong with that, to be almost sexist, and not a message
they would send, and certainly not what I saw.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Did Not Deserve Spoilers
Smile Time/ Hole in/Shells -- Age, 16:04:07 03/04/04 Thu
But the men in her life don't present themselves as having been
victims of a fickle woman; quite the contrary, they rally round
a young woman that has emotionally touched them deeply. Hell,
even Harmony develops a very human capacity for others, at least
in this episode, due to Fred.
Does Knox's speech about Fred in this episode display anything
but love for this woman; he's bestowing the greatest gift he could
ever imagine giving as a male to a female. This is an act of courtship
twisted so horribly wrong as to be a type of rape and murder.
Knox is an adolescent stuck in his own comic dreams, projecting
those dreams onto the woman for whom he has genuine feelings.
Fred makes it clear to Wes in 'Smile Time' the reason why she
broke off with Knox: he seems to have been at Wolfram and Hart
too long; he tries to make her laugh, but it doesn't come off.
In other words, there's something a bit hollow about Knox; he
tries but a serious relationship with him would not be fulfilling.
Fred's a young woman, not an adolescent; she doesn't want to be
just the statue on the pedestal to be worshipped. Knox just has
it in his mind what is going to happen, and doesn't even bother
not to take no as an answer. It doesn't even matter if Fred is
now seeing Wes, Illyria's return was pre-ordained and Knox, as
Illyria's priest, simply had to find someone worthy enough to
be cast in this role.
Age.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Did Not Deserve Spoilers
Smile Time/ Hole in/Shells -- Jane, 20:27:56 03/04/04 Thu
Fred has had one longish relationship with Gunn. It ended because
neither one could cope with the consequences of the professor's
murder. She then dated Knox for a short time, found out he wasn't
quite what she was looking for in a man. Even before she dated
Gunn, she had some feelings for Wesley. Now she realizes those
feelings have gone from friendship to love. Three men. One relationship
over before dating another guy and discovering she wasn't really
interested in him. Then she looks at Wes and sees more than before.
Fred is a young woman, and I hardly think we can fault her for
looking for a loving relationship. As someone else points out,
none of the three men seem to feel anything but warmth and love
for Fred. I don't see her as using any of them. JMO.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> I Would Agree, But
. . . -- Claudia, 15:48:19 03/05/04 Fri
"Fred has had one longish relationship with Gunn. It ended
because neither one could cope with the consequences of the professor's
murder. She then dated Knox for a short time, found out he wasn't
quite what she was looking for in a man. Even before she dated
Gunn, she had some feelings for Wesley. Now she realizes those
feelings have gone from friendship to love. Three men. One relationship
over before dating another guy and discovering she wasn't really
interested in him. Then she looks at Wes and sees more than before.
Fred is a young woman, and I hardly think we can fault her for
looking for a loving relationship. As someone else points out,
none of the three men seem to feel anything but warmth and love
for Fred."
I would agree with you, but . . . I still remember the speed in
which Fred had transferred her affections from Angel to Gunn in
Season 3, and the speed in which she went back and forth between
Gunn and Wes in S4. And the fact that she took up with Wes without
bothering to confront and inform Knox about her feelings left
me feeling uneasy about her.
[> [> [> [> [> [> I don't think Knox is actually
adolescent.... -- Charles
Phipps, 22:35:07 03/04/04 Thu
He actually is just honest to god insane. Sometimes its best to
call a spade a spade and while 'worship' isn't the healthiest
of relationships, I believe he was overwise an emotionally mature
man.
No...he was just evil.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Did Not Deserve -- Gyrus,
07:03:15 03/05/04 Fri
You wrote, "And Fred can take the blame, as well. Her fickle
behavior regarding men - especially toward Knox, probably led
him to set her up with the sarcophogus." Since "blame"
implies guilt, I took that to mean that you were saying that Fred
brought it on herself. Apologies if I misunderstood.
Nonetheless, blaming Fred's demise on her "fickle behavior"
seems unjustified. She could not have reasonably expected that
dating Knox -- someone with whom she has worked closely for months
-- would have such dire consequences. You could more reasonably
blame her fate on, for example, her failure to wear a protective
suit while examining the sarcophagus.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Did Not Deserve
-- angel's nibblet, 14:12:29 03/05/04 Fri
You could more reasonably blame her fate on, for example, her
failure to wear a protective suit while examining the sarcophagus.
Hmmmm I get the feeling that this might not really have helped
either. *sob* poor Fredikens.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Warning: do not inhale
-- Gyrus, 08:11:29 03/08/04 Mon
You could more reasonably blame her fate on, for example, her
failure to wear a protective suit while examining the sarcophagus.
Hmmmm I get the feeling that this might not really have helped
either. *sob* poor Fredikens.
But didn't she inhale the demon essence, or whatever it was? Having
a separate air supply would have prevented that.
[> [> Re: Random thoughts on "Shells" - Spoilers
for "Shells" -- heywhynot, 11:53:31 03/04/04
Thu
Gunn is partially responsible in a very direct fashion. Wesley's
actions season 3 indirectly led to where they are but many different
paths still remained that did not lead to Fred being replaced
by an Old One. Gunn choose a course of actions that he knew was
going to have bad consequences (he assumed it would be to "other"
people, outside of their "elite" group). He put his
wants ahead of the concerns of others. Once the consequences were
unfolding to someone he loved, he still did not own up to his
part until it was too late.
Wesley did not forsee Holtz betraying him and taking Connor to
a hell dimension, raising the child to hate Angel. Angel was in
the depths of despair when he slept with Darla & given how vampires
reproduce, he had no idea of what was to come. Gunn knew he was
doing something that could very well harm an innocent party and
yet he went along with it anyway. Paths still remained that kept
Fred from being "infected", once Gunn got the sarcophagus
through customs though most of those paths closed. The dice had
become weighted in favor of Illyria's return.
Does that excuse Wes's actions? No. He admits to Illyria his failings
(esp. regarding Knox). He did not live up to his ideals, he acted
in rage. He knows that.
[> [> [> Re: Random thoughts on "Shells"
- Spoilers for "Shells" -- Claudia, 12:28:55
03/04/04 Thu
I think we all can simply agree that everyone's actions - whether
they had intended to do harm or not - led to the events of "AHITW"
and "Shells". Frankly, I think its useless trying to
debase one character and excuse another.
By the way, Wes may not have forseen Holtz taking Connor, but
he knew that his actions would hurt Angel. Gunn may not have intended
for Fred to die, but he knew that someone would suffer from his
actions. Angel may have been in despair when he slept with Darla,
but he must have realize that some bad consequences would have
arisen. And he definitely was aware that signing the gang to Wolfram
& Hart's coattails would mean trouble. Fred did not deserve to
die in that manner, but one cannot deny that her handling of the
relationship with Knox had somewhat led to her fate.
All of them screwed up.
[> [> [> [> Turning a man down now leads to torment
and death? -- BrianWilly, 12:55:47 03/04/04 Thu
Knox had wanted Fred as Illyria's shell practically from the moment
he met her. Whether or not she was dating him doesn't change what
he would have done anyway. Besides, I don't see how her rejection
of Knox counts as a screw-up...if anything there was definite
lack of screwage;). She wasn't interested, and turned him down.
It wasn't a MISTAKE or anything.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Turning a man down now leads
to torment and death? -- LadyLavinia, 13:16:55 03/04/04
Thu
Do we know for certain that Knox was telling the truth? I don't
think he was. I find it interesting that he finally set in motion
for Fred to become Illyria, AFTER she began dating Wes.
[> [> [> [> [> [> We don't actually know
about the "after" part. -- mrsubjunctive, 16:16:11
03/04/04 Thu
Or "before," either, as far as it goes. We're never
shown the moment when Knox makes his decision, and he doesn't
specify. So maybe it was about Wes, and maybe not.
As for whether he was telling the truth, a lot of the information
we have from Knox happened when he was being menaced by Gunn,
and Ilyria was in the process of being "born," for lack
of a better word. Knox, at that point, would seem to have very
little incentive to lie -- things were going off the way he wanted
them to, plus a large and angry man who may or may not already
know stuff about the situation is threatening him.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Remember that Knox is...
-- BrianWilly, 17:33:49 03/04/04 Thu
...a worshipper of Illyria, and has been since he was eleven.
He's been obsessed with her[it] ever since he first saw a DRAWING
of Illyria, and has been working since then to bring it back to
kill off humanity.
First of all, the man's obviously not entirely sane. Secondly,
it's obvious through Knox's rather proud confessions to Gunn that
his obsession is devoted to Illyria first, and THEN Fred, not
the other way around. His entire longing for Fred was based upon
viewing her as a vessel for his diety, for whom he wanted the
best, the absolute most perfect host. He says that he loves Fred,
but that's a very fuzzy way to state it...better to say that he
saw Fred as the most perfect, most beautiful birthday present
in the world for his true love. Whether or not the present returned
his affections is entirely beyond his point.
[> [> [> [> Re: Random thoughts on "Shells"
- Spoilers for "Shells" -- heywhynot, 13:59:45
03/04/04 Thu
I am not excusing their actions, just that their actions did not
directly lead to Fred's fate like Gunn's did. Knox was looking
for the perfect vessel for Illyria, he determined Fred was it.
He tried to get the Sarcophagus there, it got stuck in customs.
With the aid of the doc, they took advantage of Gunn's issues
to get him to help them. Gunn knew he was making a deal that would
harm others but because he believed it wouldn't be anyone he cared
about, this would be ok. Knox had been working towards Illyria's
return since he was a boy. He came to the LA branch because LA
was the historical home to Illyria. If Fred had chosen Knox, she
still would of been his candidate to be Illyria's host. The only
action of Fred's that was suspect was her rush to investigate
the Sarcophagus. Though my bet is that all the testing known to
W&H wouldn't of been able to detect the threat and that Fred would
of ended up being infected anyway. You can't control the world
around you. Other people makes choices as well. Gunn made his
w/ full knowledge that he was damning someone. Knox chose Fred
to be Illyria's host. Those were choices that directly lead to
Fred's death. Joining W&H created the opportunity which was preceded
by Jasmine's birth created out of Connor's birth and kidnapping
by Wes, but those events did not mean Fred was to die to allow
Illyria's rebirth. Knox's and Gunn's choices did. And remember,
Gunn was all for joining W&H: From "Home"
GUNN
Iím doing this. Hope itís not just me but if it
is ... thatís all right, too.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Random thoughts on "Shells"
- Spoilers for "Shells" -- Buffalo,
14:23:23 03/04/04 Thu
While still shrill and underdevloped emotionally, it was Harmony
lecturing Gunn on morals. Gunn and Angel had no problem decapitating
Eli. Knox was an employee who killed a fellow employee.
"If you don't kill, we won't kill you," Angel, CEO of
LA Branch of W+H.
Wes and gun delivered justice as outlined by company policy. The
issue was timing.
ok, I'm delurked, now.
[> Re: Random thoughts on "Shells" - Spoilers
for "Shells" -- Widget, 21:25:14 03/07/04 Sun
Hello. And curse stupid Kakarot. You should come back to the land
of the Frozen Tundra. We are sorely lacking the greatest warrior
of all time and await your return.
Also--Fred's death was so very good. Just great. A bit Dark Phoenixy
in some ways...(which is only really understandable if you know
originally Jean Grey was supposed to stay dead and that what happened
to her was very similar to Fred/Illyria...you know, powerful entity
burns up sweet earth girl in creating itself a new form but gains
many of her heroic characteristics in the process).
The Sum of our Memories--SPOILERS for "Shells"
-- Arethusa, 11:30:56 03/04/04 Thu
What are we? I think weíve been arguing this question in
one way or another for years. Are we creatures of ash and bone,
made in the image of our creator? Are we our soul, tucked inside
a meat envelope? Electrical spasms that our brain interprets as
consciousness? Or are we the total of all our experiences, that
is, are we our memories?
When Angel removed all of Connorís memories and substituted
new ones, he created a new person. This new young man was confident,
loving, and had a sense of belgonging-and humor. When Angel removed
part of the memories of his friends and co-workers and those memories
gradually became replaced by others, the Fang gang changed also.
They became new people. Their old experiences forgotten, they
regressed to past behavior. I donít want to be who I used
to be either, Wes tells Gunn, but he doesnít remember
who he used to be. He doesnít remember betraying Angel,
getting his throat cut, and developing a bitter but self-sufficent
shell. Gunn and Fred donít remember running AI . Lorne
doesnít remember Jasmine and his worship of her.
ìThose who forget the past are doomed to repeat it.î
This familiar George Santanya quote sums up the sense of deja-vu
pervading this season. Angel continues to kill or try to kill
those he might have saved. A member of AI lies in a hospital bed
with a knife wound, weeping with grief and regret. A beautiful
young woman loved by the group has been killed by an Old One worshipped
by others. The gyre circles, but does not widen; everyone trods
the path and comes right back to where they started from, traversing
the game board but ending up at Home.
When Fred is killed by Illyria, her body is hollowed out and her
soul is consumed. But in consuming we make what has been absorbed
a part of ourselves. Fred is now a part of Illyria, to her disgust.
Fredís memories are a part of her, and what are we if not
our memories? Illyria goes to Wes for help instead of the warrior,
for whom she has just a hairís breath more respect than
the other bleating sheep. How much of Fred survives in Illyria,
and will Fredís memories take her over as Illyria took
over Fredís body?
Replies:
[> Nicely thought out. -- CW, 14:30:22 03/04/04 Thu
[> [> Thanks :) -- Arethusa, 14:43:36 03/04/04
Thu
[> That mindswipe thing. -- Evan, 18:39:17 03/04/04
Thu
"Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it".
I think (or at least I hope) we're gonna get some clarification
on this mindwipe thing because right now it simply doesn't make
sense to me. Wes knows he dated Lilah, but has he asked himself
why he would do such a thing? What does he think could possibly
have put him in his "dark" state? And you mentioned
that you don't think they remember Jasmine. Then why do they think
W&H wanted to hire them? The law firm's story at the time (whether
it's true or not) was that it was because they ended world peace
- haven't they mentioned this at some point? Furthermore, if they
don't remember Jasmine, what do they think put Cordelia in that
coma?
I remember someone mentioning on this board that maybe this spell
was something like the glory/ben thing, and when people try to
think about the answers to these questions, their mind simply
wanders and they can't focus on the memories, as opposed to the
Connor/Dawn thing where people's memories were actually altered.
I think this is the most likely explanation.
Sorry, this was a little off topic.
[> [> About Fred's memories (spoilers to 5.16 and unspoiled
future speculation) -- RadiusRS, 00:51:35 03/05/04 Fri
It seems to me a big point was made about Illyria keeping some
of Fred's memories, even if we and Wes were reminded of that in
a painful way. This leads me to believe that the key to breaking
down the mindwipe is in Illyria/Fred...after all, Fred was the
first one who asked "Who's Connor?", at the end of Home.
Perhaps and Old One, with their long memories and demon physiology,
would be able to overcome the mindwipe, and that might break the
spell, leading to a flood of memories for the other characters.
I seem to remember the Oracles from season 1 saying that the rules
were changing, that chaos was changing the way things worked in
the Buffyverse...this leads me to believe that Buffy's Resurrection,
The First's plan, the activation of the Slayers, the conception
of Connor, the arrival of Jasmine and the rebirth of Illyria are
all events that shouldn't be happening according to the old rules
of the Buffyverse, but are now possible; the change affects the
Evil side as much as the Good side. So an Old One might become
good, a vampire might search for and regain his soul, a young
woman might become the most powerful human to ever live, etc.
The mindwipe seems to me an attempt by W&H to control things,
to get the Fang Gang to do what they want, but in the end it will
fail because nothing can prevent chaos, there is too much choice
in the world (a theme on both shows and especially seasons 4 and
5 of Angel) to allow that to happen; humanity is becoming more
powerful than the supernatural, changing things (as Jasmine said
they did when they first appeared) and restoring balance by choosing
to be Evil or Good, becoming astronauts who choose the hard choice
in order to learn and be amazed by the universe. Illyria, of the
ones who came before there was humanity, is the perfect creation
through which to view the new status quo, someone who is pure
demon yet might still chose the path of good. Her destruction
of Fred, who did not choose that, might be an indicator that choice
is important, as Illyria seems to be learning, that everything
can be new by what we choose. If Fred's memories contain the knowledge
of the choices Team Angel has made over the past few years, I
think it probable that she will bring this to the fore. The mindwipe
didn't change the past, it changed the present...events weren't
changed, only the perception of what happened, and choices have
consequences (as two Buffy episodes are called) which is why I
think, thematically, Illyria will be the one to expose what happened...which
just might make Angel the Big Bad of this season.
Question -- Kristy, 11:33:33 03/04/04
Thu
Does anyone know the name/artist of the song that was played at
the end of the episode last night? thanks.
Replies:
[> According to a couple places I've read it's "A Place
Called Home" by Kim Richey -- Pony, 14:58:29 03/04/04
Thu
[> [> Re: According to a couple places I've read it's
"A Place Called Home" by Kim Richey -- Kristy, 11:14:51
03/05/04 Fri
Thanks for the help.
[> [> [> THANKS! (that's what prior message was supposed
to say) -- Kristy, 11:17:04 03/05/04 Fri
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