March 2003 posts
I am so happy! (casting spoiler for AtS 4.17, 'Inside Out', also possible plot point) -- HonorH, 00:54:08 03/27/03 Thu
I am *so happy* to see Julie Benz back on AtS next week. *So* badly want to see Connor meet Darla, and this looks like It. It's like a ficcer's paradise! I'm so jazzed! *Squee!*
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Joining your squee! (spoilers for next week's AtS promo) -- Masq, 06:02:56 03/27/03 Thu
Somewhere in the archives--and I'm no expert on them because I shovel them off on other people--is a post by me saying, "Connor needs to meet his mother. I wish they would bring Darla in a dream sequence or something."
I'm not sure why I wanted this so much--it's unclear what Connor would gain, psychologically or emotionally from that experience. Would meeting his vampire mother make him feel worse about himself or more accepting of himself? Would it help him break free of MamaCordy's manipulations? (One can only hope!)
Or maybe because Darla is such a powerful character, as is Connor. Maybe just seeing them interact would be a treat.
Either way, it was just something I wanted to see.
...Of course, it could be just to see the two actors side by side and decide if they really do look like each other.
At any rate, excited Darla fan girl here!
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I don't want to throw cold water on you... (spoilers for next week's AtS promo) -- Isabel, 07:44:08 03/27/03 Thu
And I admit that I'd like Junior to deal with some Mommy issues for a change, BUT I didn't notice Darla interacting with anyone in the preview. It's totally possible that she's a flashback and not there in the flesh. sigh.
Fangirl-wise, can you think of any woman more likely to bitchslap some sense into Connor? She's the queen of manipulations and victimization. She could really set that kid straight. (Especially since he doesn't know what the rest of the gang knows, that confrontation could be bloody.)
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What it could mean -- Masq, 08:02:13 03/27/03 Thu
I never said I thought she'd be there in the flesh. In fact, I said I thought it would be a dream sequence.
I also said I wasn't sure if her appearance, if it is to Connor (and I believe Connor will see her image in a dream), will help him or mess him up more.
So, you're not throwing cold water on me. I'd just like to see the characters of Darla and Connor interact, even if it's just what Connor imagines his mother to be like, and not "the real" Darla.
Given what "Darla" says in the preview sequence, it sounds kind of pep-talky to me. Maybe all the doubt Connor's been experiencing about Cordelia manifests itself as Darla in his mind and tells him to follow his instincts and stop listening to Cordelia.
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Re: What it could mean -- 110v3w1110w, 09:51:02 03/27/03 Thu
well what with the first evils apperance as lilah to wesly a few weeks ago whats to say it won't apear again in the form of darla to get conner to do what it wants
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That wasn't the FE. (spoiler for 'Salvage') -- HonorH, 10:41:26 03/27/03 Thu
It was a figment of Wesley's imagination, and he knew it. The conversation took place entirely in his mind. She says so explicitly. It was Wesley working through his Lilah Issues in the extreme stress of having to dismember her body.
Besides, I don't think we'll be having FE apparitions on AtS this season. They want the shows connected, but still separate. Making the FE a Big Bad on AtS would be a misstep.
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Also, the FE couldn't have lifted the sheet covering Lilah -- Finn Mac Cool, 11:57:02 03/27/03 Thu
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Re: Also, the FE couldn't have lifted the sheet covering Lilah -- 110v3w1110w, 14:09:42 03/27/03 Thu
if you look at it again there are two distinct versions of lilah that apear the first one who gets up off the table and lifts the sheet is in weslys mind she looks all cut and dead and her attitude is taht of someone trying to comfort wesly. the second one appears from no where and can be seen at the same time as lilah's body can be seen still on the table her apperance is different it looks like healthy normal lilah and it appears to be taunting wesly this is the first evil IMO
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Different sides of Lilah. -- HonorH, 16:01:25 03/27/03 Thu
She was pointing out to him, during her second appearance, that on some level, he'd wanted to redeem her, and he couldn't. That was as much a figment as the other--see how Wesley reacts to her no differently than to the previous apparition. If he'd just been thinking of her at first, holding that conversation in his mind, and then suddenly there *was* Lilah, his reaction would've been different. It wasn't. Both Lilahs were in Wesley's mind--he was just seeing different facets of her, both the woman who loved him and the Queen Bitch.
Still hold that they won't cross over with the FE that explicitly.
The G n' R Fans (Angel Players Spoils?) -- neaux, 06:23:05 03/27/03 Thu
Heavens forbid that I start a ship for G n' R. But if it hasnt been started before now.. maybe I'm making it official?
Yes Guns and F'n Roses. or Gunns and Raidens I mean.
So guys. what do ya think? Does Gunn and Raiden have a Spark? or will their relationship fizzle??
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Re: The G n' R Fans (Angel Players Spoils?) -- CW, 06:47:08 03/27/03 Thu
Isn't this just another chapter in the Turgid Supernatural Soap Opera? Isn't the whole point of G+R just to have something for Fred to get really upset about and go rushing into Wesley's arms? Add this to what I think the casting spoiler in the other thread means and... All this may help keep the show on the air next season. But, at what price?
I'm genuinely happy for you guys who like this sort of thing. But personally... (Yawn)
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Let's just hope.. -- neaux, 07:03:56 03/27/03 Thu
How ever this turns out.. let's just hope they don't add another pregnancy to the mix!
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Agreed! -- CW, 07:08:05 03/27/03 Thu
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Re: Let's just hope.. -- Cern, 07:12:08 03/27/03 Thu
IMHO...I say G&R should be the new spin off.
Two thieves stealing from the supernatural? A cross between X-Men and Tomb Raider...
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Re: Let's just hope.. -- Gyrus, 07:33:32 03/27/03 Thu
They could name him Sparky!
Sorry.
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Re: The G n' R Fans (Angel Players Spoils?) -- Arethusa, 07:23:10 03/27/03 Thu
Despite the kiss, Fred hasn't seemed very happy with Wes's behavior recently. I'm hoping that Fred will learn a little about jealousy, and maybe become less naive about men and women. Fred seemed so clueless regarding sexual relationships this episode that I think ME might be heading in that direction.
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Re: The G n' R Fans (Angel Players Spoils?) -- Rahael, 06:47:42 03/27/03 Thu
Keeping this alive for those who have seen the ep. But a lot of people in livejournal land seem to have a) loved the ep and b)loved Gwen and Gunn, for what it's worth!
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Agreed, but I pity the Zeppo -- Solitude1056, 07:22:38 03/27/03 Thu
I thought it was about time we saw some sort of vulnerability from flippant miss spandexia, and I was loving every minute of chicken sauve gunn. Woo, I have been vindicated that old japanese samurai movies are a useful thing to watch! (And yes, the old movies do emphasis exactly what Gunn did, including the proper kind of bow. I mean, big part of culture, after all.)
Although I had a split second of "Gunn thinks he's gonna take on these guys?" Cause, y'know, not like the rest of us have learned all those moves from watching movies. But then I remembered, fighting vamps all his life, and vamps have that instinctive martial arts learning as soon as they come back, so yeah. There ya go. On the job training - and as soon as I reasoned this out, I could watch the rest of Gunn's awesome fight scene with complete appreciation.
Thing is, Gunn is turning out to be the Xander of AI. He sees to the heart of a situation without, as someone else mentioned in this thread, over-thinking it. Problem is, some of Gunn's finest moments seem to be when no one else is looking - and Fred sure hasn't been looking his way for several months now. So the fact that Gwen noticed him, and appreciated, means as much to Gunn as being observed (and appreciated) would've meant to Xander. That's why I'm not surprised Gunn responded with attraction towards Gwen, even if she's a headstrong latex-wearing freaky thief and miles away from his last gf in personality.
I'm not sure Gwen and Gunn have lasting potential, since it's more realistic to expect this pairing to be rebound. And it's raising a huge number of issues for Gwen, her first time intimate with anyone, ever!, to have opened herself to someone who's still dealing with the dregs of another relationship. That puts her square in the line of hurt, and us square in the line of More Turgid Supernatural Soap Opera Crap (TM).
Bummer.
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Technical quibble -- Gyrus, 07:53:08 03/27/03 Thu
vamps have that instinctive martial arts learning as soon as they come back
Most of the straight-from-the-grave vamps we've seen have been unskilled brawlers (ex. the vamped banker from "Gingerbread", or Dawn's opponent in "Lessons"). The only ones who fight well from the start are the ones who trained when they were alive, like Holden Webster. All the rest pick up their fighting skills sometime after they climb out of the grave (like Harmony).
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Not bad, but let's not get ahead of ourselves.... -- cjl, 07:22:05 03/27/03 Thu
See what you've done? Now I've got Slash's opening guitar riff from "Sweet Child of Mine" running through my head on continuous loop. (Uh oh, Axl's started singing.) Nnnnyaaah!
Not on the G'n'R (great 'ship name!) bandwagon just yet. Gunn was responding to the emotional vulnerability of a beautiful woman, and it looks like a one-night stand for now. Who knows how Gwen's going to deal with her newfound re-connection with humanity? Will Gwen and Gunn be able to form an emotional relationship beyond that first encounter?
Let's wait until Gwen's next appearance before we get 'shippy.
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Why you are probably right.. -- neaux, 07:59:18 03/27/03 Thu
As you stated below, last night's episode was a "Bond-ian Caper".
Following James Bond's rules, Bond always gets the girl. So to complete the bond experience, Gunn needed to get the girl. But like TRUE PLAYAs, Bond goes from girl to girl.
so the question to ask is, Is Gunn a True Playa?
another side note:
someone above compared GUNN to Xander. Didnt Xander dress up as James bond for a Halloween Episode?
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Re: Why you are probably right.. -- Gyrus, 08:28:41 03/27/03 Thu
Didnt Xander dress up as James bond for a Halloween Episode?
Yes, though he simply described himself as "Cool Secret Agent Guy" (earning a "Cool Head Waiter Guy" remark from Buffy).
Interestingly, in the shooting script for "Waiting in the Wings", Joss' describes Gunn in his tuxedo as looking like "James Fucking Bond."
buffy is going down the wrong path (spoilers) -- 110v3w1110w, 09:47:29 03/27/03 Thu
buffy has lived way beyond the average life expectency of a slayer mostly because she has done things differently from all the others. she has a life beyond slaying she has friends that help her and tries to redeem instead of kill when ever she can and those she redeems usualy help her to win a battle in some way or another and she usualy put the individual first but this season we have seen buffy start behaving like all the other slayers her entire life has become aout slaying now she was quite willing to kill anya she is pushing her friends away and at the end of episode 17 she finaly said it its all about the mission now saying the exact words and attitude woods mother said shortly before she died in fact spike is the only thing that has kept the old buffy with us her insistance that he can be good and putting him first beyond the mission or anything else is the only thing stopping her from just becoming another slayer clone with a short life expectancy
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Spoilers for which? (Looks like LMPTM) -- V, 11:01:19 03/27/03 Thu
Taking one for the team to check to see if "spoilers" meant future or aired. ;-)
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Re: buffy is going down the wrong path (spoilersLMPTM)) -- lunasea, 11:03:52 03/27/03 Thu
In OMWF Spike sings
Life's not a song
Life isn't bliss
Life it just this: it's living
You'll get along
The pain that you fee
You can only heal by living
I like tracing how the arcs go up and down. CwDP is incredibly interesting. Prior to it, we have Buffy just living. She is doing great. A lot of the audience wants Buffy to talk (which goes against the ME policy of show them, don't tell them). She does in CwDP and that is what messes her up. She talks about living. In doing that she stopped living. She went back and talked primarily about S6, stuff she had moved beyond the first third of S7. By talking about it, she went back there. She forgot what she learned in "Grave" and ever since has been painful to watch. When she said that she would even kill Dawn, she was killing the realization that led to her crawling out of the Grave (just like when the platform fell, she lost the realization that she had up there in "The Gift."
Hopefully the PTB will step in again, like they did in "Bring on the Night." Joyce was a good guy with the right message. You can't fight evil with evil. Buffy hasn't remembered what you do fight it with. At this point, she has a very laissez-faire attitude - Spike can be good. I just know it. Let's give him a chance. She isn't taking any real steps to empower him to be good, like she did with Angel.
Everything is connected. The good that we do, ultimately comes back to help us somewhere down the line. If Angel had died in "Amends," he wouldn't have been there emotionally for her in "Helpless," "Consequences," "Forever" or that off screen meeting in S6. If he didn't believe in himself and his potential because of the faith she shows him in "Angel," he never would have been there for "Prophecy Girl," "The Dark Age" and any other times where he saves Buffy or someone else's life. Without Angel, Willow would have been toast in "Revelations." Giles and Wesley probably wouldn't have made it out of "Bad Girls." Who knows if Angel did something to save Dawn in memory-version S3.
That is just Angel and not everything. The friendship that Buffy showed Xander has helped him grow into the man he is that gives her the "You're my hero" speech in "The Freshman" that pulls her out of her slump.
Buffy has to get back to living and stop soldering. Life's not a mission. Life isn't bliss. Life is just this: It's living.
Hey... -- O'Cailleagh, 10:19:35 03/27/03 Thu
I'm back...kinda.....
Actually, not for another week or so yet...my modem is Evil. Big apology to OnM and the Chained to Fate gang-must've seemed like I died or didn't care or something. In fact my phone was cut off cos I couldn't pay the bill- much higher than I expected! So anyhoo, I will be back properly soon. Very soon! Love you all.
O'Cailleagh
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Sorry to hear, O'Cailleagh. Hope things get worked out -- Random, 10:38:46 03/27/03 Thu
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As Sheri noted, what I said didn't come out quite right...sorry re the phone, Yippee! re the return -- Random, 12:48:45 03/27/03 Thu
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o'c!!!! woohooo!!! [does Numfar Dance of Joy in anticipation] -- LittleBit, 11:33:19 03/27/03 Thu
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BOO YAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!! -- VampRiley, 12:12:36 03/27/03 Thu
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Re: Random and Bit: That's gotta be the two most polar opposite reactions I've ever seen -- Sheri, 12:12:57 03/27/03 Thu
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Ua mau aloha nui he aikane na ke onaona (A friend, like a lovely fragrance, is always welcome). -- Resh, 12:36:44 03/27/03 Thu
O'Cailleagh, you have been sorely missed! I count it my great fortune that, after not having time to read the board for over a week, the first post I see is your wonderful "hello." Welcome back! Know that you are being sent planet-spanning light rays of Prosperity, Laughter and Proper Modem Behavior.
Goddess Bless,
Resh (the now-mostly-luker who was formerly the poster redcat and who, in either incarnation, is very glad you are OK!)
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o'c's ok! glad to hear it! -- anom, 17:51:10 03/27/03 Thu
Looking forward to seeing you on the board again soon! Also in chat--give it a try, even w/an evil modem you probably won't get bounced out any more than I do!
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Re: o'c's ok! glad to hear it! -- O'Cailleagh, 19:06:09 03/27/03 Thu
Well hey y'all. You lovely bunch! Who's feeling chatsome?
Inverted seraphs (Spoilers through Angel 4:16 + teaser for 4:17) -- Katrina, 12:04:52 03/27/03 Thu
In last night's episode, when they were talking about the translation and Wesley announced he was not a buckethead, he added that it was a "tricky language" and that "an inverted serif" could alter the meaning of an entire passage. It took me a minute to realize he said "serif," because at first I heard "seraph." A seraph, of course, being an angel. I know this is making crazy mountains out of molehills, but here goes:
The Beastmaster's big plan in some way involved Angel becoming Angelus, in a form becoming, not a reversal, but an inversion, a turning inside-out of his consciousness.
Likewise, the plan has involved Cordelia -- although we're still in the dark about where she's been, what she's been, and, well, just about everything about her, we (and the gang) were led to believe that she had been spirited up to become a "higher being," who was seen by the spiritual doohickey Gwen stole early in the season as existing more or less in an angelic realm. Now that she's been well and truly established as up to evil doings, in some sense she could be described also as an "inverted seraph," with her purpose turned inside out, and for all we know, her consciousness as well. Perhaps her coming out of the "higher" realm has made Cordelia able to fulfil the role of a (not exactly Virgin) Mary role.
Also, Angel and Cordelia, both identified with angels, through name and experience, stand in an inverted position to each other: he started out as a mortal, became a supernatural evil, and then became good. She started out as a mortal, became (supposedly, and assumed until the evidence comes out) a supernatural good, and then became evil. (I feel like I should put quotes around every use of "good" and "evil," but that might get annoying).
I have often thought that the themes of the overarching story arcs in AtS hinge upon definitions of good and evil, why evil exists, how good can counteract it, and so on. In staggeringly simplistic terms: in each season one, Angel was depicted as isolated from humanity. In fighting evil, he was tempted to become too disconnected, objective, if you will, and needed to learn the importance of connecting to people. Similarly, Cordelia, Doyle, and Wesley were all shown as having become separated from their previous lives and identities.
In season two, with the Darla storyline, there was the temptation for Angel to overidentify with the outcome of his works, the temptation to fight evil with evil, the tempation to give in to despair. In season three, relationships between the group really rose to the fore. As they had come together as a family-style unit, having faced evils both internal and external, the members of the group were separately tempted by relationships: the desire for romantic and sexual connection, the desire for actual flesh-and-blood family ties. If there was a lack of connection in the beginning of the series, there became almost too much connection, as characters paired up, or didn't, causing friction; as Angel's love for his son led to the severing of family-like ties between him and Wesley; I could go on and on, but I won't.
This season, while relationships are still important, there has been a growing subtext about the temptation to moral superiority. We've seen this in what seems a greater tendency to assign blame between the characters, but most predominantly in the Evil Cordelia storyline. Early in the season, she was the only character who hadn't had some sort of dark side shown. Angel, of course, has a history of locking lawyers in cellars, showing rather excessive brutality, and so forth. Wes had the baby-kidnapping, the evil lawyer boinking, the girl in the closet. Connor had dumped his dad in the ocean. Fred and Gunn, hitherto a sweet-n-innocent couple in love, were torn about by a murder out of vengeance. Even Lorne had participated in stealing people's destinies as a lesser of two evils. This left Cordelia as the only character unmarked by a dark side, always all gooey and compassionate, too good to be true, literally.
If Saint Cordelia embodies the true force of evil, perhaps it's the refusal to face her own dark side (the mark of humanity, if Holland Manners was to be believed: if there wasn't evil in every person, they wouldn't be human, they'd be angels) that led to her downfall. Cordelia's weakness was always vanity, and a sense of her own superiority among mere mortals: now she's superior to mere mortals. As she became more devoted to the fight against evil, it seems logical that doing so could open her up to a kind of spiritual pride that may have made her vulnerable to manipulation. (By Skip? By the Powers? That still remains to be seen). Of course, moral superiority is becoming an issue across the way in Sunnydale as well, which gives me more to think about.
If, as the trailer for next week's episode implies, the gang believes they may have to kill Cordelia, it'll be interesting to see how Angel has been affected by his recent encounter with Faith (whose name is sounding more allegorical by the minute!) and her refusal to kill him, no matter what. Faith, despite her super powers; is the flawed human, with all the possibilities of good and evil, but having faced up to the possibility of evil within her, she's clearly morally superior to whatever Cordelia has become, and probably to what she was when she was tempted to, um, "ascend."
Have to get to work now, or my superiors will let me know about good and evil in the workplace!
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Re: Inverted seraphs (Spoilers through Angel 4:16 + teaser for 4:17) -- Masq, 12:42:45 03/27/03 Thu
If Saint Cordelia embodies the true force of evil, perhaps it's the refusal to face her own dark side (the mark of humanity, if Holland Manners was to be believed: if there wasn't evil in every person, they wouldn't be human, they'd be angels) that led to her downfall. Cordelia's weakness was always vanity, and a sense of her own superiority among mere mortals: now she's superior to mere mortals. As she became more devoted to the fight against evil, it seems logical that doing so could open her up to a kind of spiritual pride that may have made her vulnerable to manipulation. (By Skip? By the Powers? That still remains to be seen). Of course, moral superiority is becoming an issue across the way in Sunnydale as well, which gives me more to think about.
I wonder if this is the direction ME is taking this story line: that this is the real Cordelia, not possessed by something evil, just in some way radically twisted by her own pride. But I'm not sure how they could pull it off, really. If the Cordelia we know got caught up in her own pride and self-importance, it seems much more likely that she'd do things that seem good-intentioned on the face of them, but that backfire due to her pride, etc., getting in the way.
And Cordelia seems to clearly have done things that only an insane person could call "good-intentioned"--bringing on a mass-slaughtering Beast? Blocking out the sun so that demons rule the City? Plus, last night Cordelia referred to the Beast's Master as an "Evil Genius". She seems to believe that she is, herself, evil, not good-intentioned.
So Cordelia has to be completely off her rocker, or there is more going on here than just "Cordelia's pride makes her do bad stuff."
If, as the trailer for next week's episode implies, the gang believes they may have to kill Cordelia, it'll be interesting to see how Angel has been affected by his recent encounter with Faith (whose name is sounding more allegorical by the minute!) and her refusal to kill him, no matter what. Faith, despite her super powers; is the flawed human, with all the possibilities of good and evil, but having faced up to the possibility of evil within her, she's clearly morally superior to whatever Cordelia has become, and probably to what she was when she was tempted to, um, "ascend."
This is an interesting question. Why does Angel come to the conclusion that Cordelia has to be killed, not redeemed through love, therapy, magic, a phone call to the PTB's, etc? Angel doesn't have a history of showing that "quality of mercy" that Buffy often has. But this is Cordelia, someone he loves, if for nothing else, than being a long-time friend.
PS Love the stuff on the symbolism of the seraphs, by the way.
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Very Interesting -- Cactus Watcher, 14:29:01 03/27/03 Thu
I mostly agree with Masq, but I think you have some solid arguing points.
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Cordy clarifications and speculations -- Katrina, 14:48:03 03/27/03 Thu
Oh, yeah, my personal unsubstantiated theory is that Cordy's being "possessed" by an outside force: that this is her real body, not some kind of mystical doppelganger, with her real consciousness in there somewhere, but currently controlled by some evil being. I don't think it's the Cordelia we knew who blotted out the sun. But I'm not sure she's really been verifiably "herself" since ascending to the higher plane, and that's certainly when all the mystery about her and her identity began. So I suspect her becoming a "higher" being in some way fed into her being used by these evil forces. Much like Liam was tempted by Darla with the idea of pleasure and adventure, those being his mortal weaknesses, Cordy was tempted into becoming "higher" and "better," that being her mortal weakness. I suspect that eventually the "real" Cordy will be back and will think of Connor totally in a maternal way, as the infant whose diapers she changed, and will be pretty freaked out by what's gone on.
It's tricky trying to interpret a text while it's being written, since any speculation can be overturned at a moment's notice! But fun.
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Re: Cordy clarifications and speculations -- CW, 14:59:16 03/27/03 Thu
Yeah, it's still my theory that Cordy was fated to carry this 'baby,' and it's the kid that's the real evil. Like Darla, once she was pregnant, the fetus started affecting her mind. Maybe once she gives birth, real Cordy will be back.
This is the fun that the spoiled always miss. Even if we're all wrong, at least we had fun thinking it up!
The Role of Original Sin in Angel and Buffy [canon, unsoiled speculation] -- Walking Turtle, 13:15:44 03/27/03 Thu
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Finn Mac Cool in a earlier post remarks:
***** The general feeling seems to be that there are only two options in regards to Angel: either Angel and Angelus are different people, so Angel bears no responsibility for Angelus, or Angel and Angelus are the same person, and thus Angel is responsible for what Angelus did. I would like to cite a third possibility, which may be how Angel views the issue: It's kind of like the Christian concept of original sin ....... Angel's way of thinking, leading to the seemingly contradictory stance that he isn't Angelus, but needs to make Amends for what Angelus did. ****
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While I agree with Finn Mac Cool analysis of how Angel now views Angelus I think the concept of original sin he [Finn Mac Cool ] is not using is not Josh's concept of original sin.
An atheist [like Josh] refuses to take *the leap of faith* to God. Such a refusal requires defining for ones self what was (is) the *sin* in the concept of original sin. Some see original sin in terms of *guilt*. Others think the original sin that each one of us is born with is *separation from God*. Are these Josh's definitions?
My family is loaded with Lutheran pastors and Lutheran school teachers. My own background is a Ph.D. in bio-chemistry on top of a B.A. in liberal arts. I spent 40 years-teaching university level chemistry and biology. I am trained to see the good and/or bad in a person in terms of 'genes' and 'environment'. I see this as an extension of what I learned at home. My family trys to help a person (and the people around that person) 'see' what the person has (is?) that is 'good' and what the person has (is?) that is 'bad' in terms other than Black and White i.e. in Grays.
I was raised to believe and now accept original sin as a separation from God. To get to or back to God is not easy. Eating the *Fruit of Knowledge* caused the separation thus Knowledge itself is not the answer -- one has to make a *leap of faith* that there is a God.
Suppose one decides 'there is no God'. Now what is original sin? Josh has made controlling not hiding from ones demon 'interesting'. The roller coaster ride he generated with Buffy's learning about/forgetting, accepting/denying and controlling/losing control of her own demons has proved to me that Josh really understands his atheistism. I think controlling not hiding from ones demons -- the hand you are dealt with -- serves as the concept of original sin for Josh.
There is a phrase *go ye and sin no more*. An option for Angel is to make a *leap of faith* that he can accept and control his *Angelus* -- be responsible for what his *Angelus* does from NOW ON. What is passed is passed or as my Grandmother used to say 'quit crying over spilled milk'.
In a Fool for Love flashback, Spike says Angelus wants to fight battles he can win; while he, Spike, wants to fight battles he might lose. Spike goes after the Slayers not Angelus. In my mind, this is Angel's basic issue -- he must decide to fight a battle he might lose. My person problem with the show Angel is that Angel is still dancing about this issue after 80 years.
Its only taken Spike 1 year to stop dancing. One year after he got a soul Spike has won the battle to control his demon -- he keeps telling every one he is not the same Spike. In 'Lies....' Fury [ ie. Josh] nails the point that to Spike original sin is no longer guilt. He has 'quit crying over spilled milk'. His quilt over his mother is gone. The First Evil can no longer control him. Spike controls himself. I don't expect him to become 'bad'. He is now an example for the others in the house in Sunnydale.
Poor Buffy. Josh has given her both the discovery of original sin and a mission. She can now handle the hand she was dealt. She did that in what -- 21-22 years? -- what's why no birthday party this year. The mission is still going on. We know her legacy is not protecting the Slayer's line -- that's Faith's mission. What is Buffy's mission? Does Buffy have a Legacy other than remembrance as Guardian of the Hellspot and Savior of the World?
One mission Josh has given Buffy is Spike. Buffy has saved Spike by aiding him is his battle. She is telling everyone that Spike has changed. She has helped Spike overcome his rage and guilt. I expect the others to begin see Spike as she does, since he will behave the way she says he is going to behave. Giles told them years ago how to forgive. The others need accept Spike as part of controlling their own demon. Each has one.
Another missions? Just important and probably fun details. Who will Buffy always love? Poor Angel 80 years of being afraid of losing his soul. I want Josh to have Buffy do for Angel what she appears to have done for Spike. Angel will survive what happens in Sunnydale -- the question in my mind is how/what will Buffy Legecy be to aid Angel in his person battle so he can get on with being the *Champion*.
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Re: Sorry !!! spoils buffy 717 a tiny bit - so stay clear if not seen -- Walking Turtle, 13:38:13 03/27/03 Thu
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Re: Sorry !!! spoils LMPTM -- Walking Turtle, 13:41:27 03/27/03 Thu
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Yeap, this seems to be the Jossian equivelant of original sin. -- Finn Mac Cool, 17:53:33 03/27/03 Thu
There is a very clear message that everyone has evil in them. However, how much evil there is varies depending on the show ("Buffy" is a more humanistic show, believing in the innate goodness of human beings, even if that goodness doesn't always win out, while "Angel" is a bit more cynical).
As for the difference between Spike and Angel in terms of developement: Angelus was a lot more evil than soulless Spike was, so it stands to reason Angel would have a harder time dealing with his inner demon. And, Angel has gone into a fight he might not win; he took an elevator ride into hell so that he could attack the Senior Partners of Wolfram & Hart, even though it was highly unlikely that he would survive. He probably would have fought a very big fight that he not only might lose, but would quite probably die in the process of. The only thing that stopped him was that the elevator deposited him right back on earth. It's also important to note that Angel going on this suicide mission was shown as not being the correct choice, given the situation.
Also, thanks for reading my post. It's good to know someone got something out of it.
Oh, and one more thing (please note, I'm not yelling at you, just generally shouting to the heavens):
His name is JOSS Whedon. It is NOT "JOSH". JOSS! JOSS! JOSS!
Again, not trying to be insulting to you, just had to get that.
Thoughts of lunacy on LMPTM and Release -- lunasea, 17:43:20 03/27/03 Thu
Just a few random thoughts for today. Not sure if they have been discussed or not. BtVS just didn't captivate me enough to weed through the threads on it. It has become incredibly predictable, but maybe that is because there are 6 other seasons of it and the season premier really does encompass the arc.
I haven't been able to predict anything on AtS (though I am pretty sure how it will end with what Greenwalt said this week). I like that. I've gotten almost absolutely everything wrong. It has been good for me. I like being wrong. I want to be wrong. Hell, ME made me into Buffy.
Back to LMPTM:
The interesting thing I found in the whole thing was the trigger wasn't to get Spike to be evil. It really was to get Spike to sire people, something we haven't seen him really do prior to this. The First was training Spike to sire Buffy.
Step 1 is to activate Buffy's death wish that we saw in FFL. General Buffy isn't that far from it right now. We aren't talking about suicide. The Slayer can't give up on the mission. It isn't in her to. She is enfused with the Spirit of the First Slayer and she has to hunt. However, all it takes is a split second where her humanity kicks in and doesn't like what she is becoming and bam, one dead slayer.
Step 2 is to activate Spike. Buffy trusts Spike so having to kill him would be burying her humanity even further.
Step 3 is for Spike to sire Buffy. Pretty self-explanatory
Step 4? that is the question. Why does the First want Buffy sired? Does this relate to why the BeastMaster wanted Angelus freed? Does it have to do with those mystical forces? What will happen if the Slayer is sired?
Other random thought: Why does it have to be Giles is right or Buffy is. How about they are both full of shit? The only one right so far has been Joyce from "Bring on the Night."
OK Powers that sit on your Be-hinds. Time for an appearance. The ducks are all in a row. Are you going to let the First just knock them down?
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Um, where'd you get that the First wants Buffy sired? -- Finn Mac Cool, 17:56:16 03/27/03 Thu
The worst part of this week -- Tyreseus, 07:30:22 03/28/03 Fri
Well, actually, the whole thing has sucked.
Has anyone here ever tripped over their dog and sprained their left hand in the fall? Now imagine that this happens on Tuesday night just hours before Buffy. Imagine that you haven't set up your VCR to record the episode yet. Imagine that the next night you do manage to record Angel, but you're so tripped out on painkillers it won't be until late Thursday night that you can make sense of the episode.
Yeah, that's been my week. I think I've exhausted my patience for one-handed typing and will spend the next few healing days just silently reading. And I had so much to say about the daddy-to-be after this last episode. Sigh. Thank Hecate that it was my left hand so I can still work the mouse to click my way through all your wonderful posts.
Ty - watching from his corner and hoping Honorificus doesn't notice him licking his wounds. You know how she gets around the wounded of the herd.
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That's awful, Ty! Get better really soon! -- Rob, 07:45:34 03/28/03 Fri
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Oh, and you'll like this... -- Rob, 07:51:55 03/28/03 Fri
My friend, Justin, and I are always arguing over which is the better show, Star Trek: TNG or Xena (guess which one I picked!). Wel, we went to see "Star Trek: Nemesis" when it opened in December and the trailer for "The Core" aired. In the trailer, the young nerdy guy they hire to help "hack" into the Earth's core (don't ask!), says that he'll need "Star Trek tapes" to help him think. Everyone in the audience cheered.
Later, however, we learned that it turned out that in the trailer before "Nemesis" they had dubbed "Star Trek" tapes in over his real line, in order to try to reel in some Trekkies to seeing "The Core."
The actual line was..."I'll need some Xena tapes!"
I was ROFLMAO when I heard that. Thought that might cheer ya up, too!
Rob
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Poor Ty! -- ponygirl, 08:05:16 03/28/03 Fri
Of course you could imagine my Angel scenario - discover it's not airing in Canada until next week, but find that you do get a WB station. Five minutes into the episode, your roommate arrives with her new boyfriend and they settle in two feet away from you to giggle and sit on each others' laps. You say fine, no problem, I'm taping it anyway, and retreat to your room to leave them to their canoodling. A few hours later you try to watch the tape and discover you've cleverly recorded an hour of snow. Your roommate yells to you from her room, "Wasn't that ending amazing!" Gack!
Hope you get better soon!
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Dogs. Pfft. -- Vyrus, 11:43:09 03/28/03 Fri
Any dog small enough to trip over is an unworthy pet. But perhaps a worthy casserole.
If you would like recipe suggestions...
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LOL! -- AurraSing, 12:41:19 03/28/03 Fri
My husband has much the same sentiment when it comes to little dogs......"Oh,here comes a make-believe dog!"
I pretty well have to gag him whenever we go to dog shows. I am usually in the ring with Masquerade (my Greyhound) right after the Dachshunds and he's cracking the jokes right within hearing distance of some of those owners,whom it's safe to say that *their* bark is way worse than their dog's bite!
Heh.
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Ouch! -- AurraSing, 12:45:30 03/28/03 Fri
Sorry to hear about your accident.I hope the dog at least looked a little embarassed about the incident....or was the cat egging him on,lol?
(don't mind me-I've stumbled over nearly every pet I have at least once.I'd say there was a conspiracy going on but they always plead "It's dark out!" as an excuse.)
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Embarrased, no. Disappointed, yes. -- Tyreseus, 13:22:37 03/28/03 Fri
We had just finished playing tug-of-war with an old sock. Well, I thought we were finished. Unfortunately, as I stood up, my puppy spotted the socks on my feet and figured this was some new variation on the game. Otherwise, there's no way she'd have been under my feet. She's a mid-sized dog (way too big for a single casserole) and after her first moment of panic, she was mostly disappointed that I didn't want to play the sock game anymore.
I'm getting better at one-handed typing, but it still takes 4 times as long to get a thought out.
Ty
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Oh, I'm right there with you -- Deb, 13:31:45 03/28/03 Fri
This isn't a Monty Python thing either. : ) Let's see. On Sunday -- an anayphalactic reaction to medication at home and had no adrenal hypo. I eat benedryl until I can get to ER, and am so wired afterward I sleep 18 hours. Then Wednesday I spend four hours in a dental chair undergoing reconstruction work from trauma caused by a car accident and a tumour. I'm allergic to the numbing stuff, so I get shot after shot "clean." Afterwards, all I have for pain in over-the-counter Tylenol because I'm allergic to aspirin and other blood thinners. (And heavens, perscribing anything "addictive" would be evil, and guarantee me a boat ride to Hades at the end of the road.) Then Thursday, I find out I need to be tested to see if I have a mutation of Myasthenia Gravis or Systemic Lupus. Afterwards, I go to one of my classes and bite the head off of a well-intentioned, but lacking in life experience, lad who wonders why in the world single mother's work at fast food places instead of getting decent jobs, and why didn't they go to college? Why did they make such stupid choices in their lives? Then I find out that Miracles is cancelled.
I have to say that Buffy and Angel were both works of high art this week. This is quite a statement from one who ranted so against David Fury in the past. Oh, loved the set of William's home. Reminded me of my great-grandmother's home and her having us eat butter and sugar sandwiches and stuff our pockets with lemon drops when we visited.
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Get (*oof!*) well (Cut it out, H!) soon! -- HonorH (with Honorificus in a hammerlock), 14:44:39 03/28/03 Fri
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aren't we missing the most important thing here? -- anom, 14:56:04 03/28/03 Fri
Which is...well, OK, of course it's really Tyreseus's sprained wrist (hope you have a quick & complete recovery, Ty!). But Ty missed taping Buffy! A new episode too, after that long wait! And Ponygirl missed Angel! Priorities, people!
Where do you each live? Can someone from the board get the respective tapes to you? I have them on separate tapes, but maybe you can get 'em quicker locally.
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Do you have anyway of getting a tape of Buffy? -- Alison, 17:00:43 03/28/03 Fri
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No dogs in my house but.... -- Rufus, 17:21:51 03/28/03 Fri
There seems to be an unwritten rule that a Cat will find a set of stairs with the lowest level of light and sharpest descent, to stretch their black carcass along the top step of. I found that out one night, when I had to run to get a message to my husband who was going out for a shift at work. I hit the top step and slid off the cat, hit about the third step on my ever so well-cushioned rump and slid down the remaining steps hitting the same impact point each step. I limped for about a week and my posterior looked like a chamelion on speed by progressively changing colour. The cat? Well he was quite offended that I had disturbed his nap....;)
Now as a pet lover....how is the poor doggie???..you must have given the poor thing a fright
Victories? Thoughts on 'Showtime' and 'Awakening' (some later spoilers) -- KdS, 12:59:33 03/28/03 Fri
All in all, a good pair of eps if both slightly lacking in depth.
Buffy's demonstration for the SITs was fine as far as demonstrating courage and resilience went, but lousy as a team-building exercise. If I'd been in Buffy's place I'd have landed a few good blows on the T-H to demonstrate that it could be at least hurt and then had Xander channel Sam Vimes:
OK people! We don't know exactly how we kill this thing, but over the next ten minutes we're going to find out by trial and error. If everything else fails, we'll chain it up and leave it on the patio til dawn. This is going to be the world's first democratically slain vampire. One person, one hack. CHARGE!
(Possibly the more untrained SITs might have been a hazard to everyone else in a melee, but cool spectacle.) It was also interesting to see the FE at the end of the battle, finally utterly lost for words. As a final note, I wonder if Andrew was the only person who actually got that Mad Max reference?
Interesting that in the confrontation with Anya's ex-casual sex partner, Anya is using reason and Giles threats of gratuitous violence. Something of a role reversal there. I have absolutely no idea about the Beljoxa's Eye business that adds to what was posted at the time of the ep. All I will say is that if the disruption turns out to be something Faith did while in the slammer that we've never heard of before, I will be extremely pissed off.
Note that the FE poses as Eve, who in some of the more misogynistic interpretations of Genesis could be regarded as the First Evil.
Note also that while Andrew may be attempting to show contrition he still feels that his past as an archvillain is a feather in his cap. It'll be a while before he stops seeing good and evil as team colours you can swap over at will.
Finally, as someone who's complained in the past about the human Scoobies' levels of stamina, I liked Xander's reference to his "usual ninety minutes of sleep".
As far as Angel is concerned, I will reiterate that you don't ask Steve DeKnight and David Fury to collaborate on an ep unless you want something truly twisted to come out at the end. Having seen the ep, I'm a little less harsh on Angel than I was reading others posts. He didn't have Wes really abase himself, and he even had Wes and Gunn make it up.
Cordelia really played Angel like a master in the garden - the perfectly-implied hints about Angelus being cleverer than Angel. The other most memorable part of the episode was Connor's complete nonchalence about killing Angel, and Angel's facial response, which was funny and touching at the same time. It was most unpleasant to see Wes ordering Fred to go and make the tea, although if he'd told Gunn to it would have been just as bad. Perhaps a polite request to anyone who might feel like it?
One small continuity issue: Angel's claim that Wes has never met Angelus is somewhat inconsistent with Eternity. One could fanwank this by suggesting that the drugged-out Angel seen in that ep was a pale shadow of the real Angelus. Alternatively, the episode could have been wiped from continuity to avoid any awkward questions about why they didn't just go and score some crack and get Angel to smoke it, instead of doing a mystical desouling.
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Beverage service (vague spoilers) -- Shiraz, 13:41:33 03/28/03 Fri
Why can't Wes make his own $#@$*& Tea!?
Dating tip: Don't treat the women your attracted to like the're the hired help.
It's one thing to be all dark and brooding, being a toffee-nosed aristocratic twit is something else entirely.
-Shiraz
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Admittedly -- KdS, 15:18:33 03/28/03 Fri
It wasn't for Wes, it was hospitality for the shaman, and Wes was busy making last minute preps for the desouling.
But it was still an unpleasant moment.
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Well, as KdS knows -- Rahael, 09:15:03 03/29/03 Sat
I hissed when Wesley did that! Ooooooh! I've had that happen to me. Grrrrr.
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Sudden linguistic thought... -- KdS, 15:26:21 03/28/03 Fri
Do Americans say "patio"?
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Yes -- Vickie, 16:30:22 03/28/03 Fri
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That's random.. -- Bar, 17:12:56 03/28/03 Fri
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a lot of us do, maybe most -- anom, 17:49:13 03/29/03 Sat
But it could be a regional thing. I watched "Golden Girls" (which took place in Florida) for a long time before I figured out what a "lenai" was (at least I think I did--apparently the same thing as a patio). It may be a Southern usage, although it sounds Hawai'ian to me (Resh? can you confirm/refute?).
Anyway. I grew up in the Washington, D.C., area w/parents from N.Y., & we said "patio."
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Re: Victories? Thoughts on 'Showtime' and 'Awakening' (some later spoilers) -- yabyumpan, 17:42:43 03/28/03 Fri
Showtime :
Pretty much agree with KdS's assesment. Last week I felt sorry for Buffy having so much pressure and having (it seemed to me) to do it alone. This week I feel a bit disappointed with her for choosing to. I don't really see how it was much help for the SiT to be spectators in the 'Buffy V T-H' show. Sure, they got to see how powerful she is and maybe it helped to allay some of their fears but Buffy can't be there to protect them all the time and what if she had lost? He whipped her pretty good last time, there was no guarantee she would beat it this time. It would also have been good for them to actually get involved somehow, even if it just shooting him with water pistols filled with holy water or throwing stones. They needed to start facing their fears and begin to be empowered, so far they've really only been victims.
On another note, I was surprised that none of them had seen a Vampire before. They are Slayers in Training after all. How can they train to be Vampire Slayers if they've never even seen a Vampire? It makes you wonder what their watchers actually did. Were they all as pathetic as Wesley when he first arrived in Sunnydale? If so, it makes you realise just how lucky Buffy was to get Giles.
Loved Giles and Anya working together, they sort of reminded me of Wesley and Cordelia late S2/early S3 AtS.
Andrew's not really registering with me yet. He fun comic relief but I'm not really getting the 'point' of him yet. Don't love him or hate him he's just "shrug".
Awakening:
Disagree that it lacked depth. I loved this peek into Angel's mind and what it takes now to give him that 'perfect happiness' moment. I think it shows just how far he's come in the last few years. Now he needs his 'family' and he needs everything to be ok in his 'family'. I loved his talks with them in the 'dream' before and after he killed the beast. I think thy show
just how much he loves and respects them all. He may have been the 'champion' at the end (along with Connor), but he thinks of them all as 'champions'. He realises he couldn't have come as far as he has without them. This is a long way from just wanting to sit alone in the dark.
I thought his reaction to Wesley's apology was great, I think as much as anything else, he just wanted him to acknowledge that there was something to apologise for. When you think back to Epiphany and Disharmony, how Angel had to grovel, eat truck loads of humble pie and sit there squirming while Wesley lectured him on responsability and working as a team; in Angel's 'dream', Wesley got off pretty lightly. Angel could of had Wesley grovel and ask for forgiveness, it was his 'perfect day' after all, but I think this shows that he doesn't want any sort of revenge on Wesley any more, he didn't want Wesley abased or to lose his dignity, he just wanted him to say sorry, to show some regret for the pain he caused. I also liked how they interacted when they went searching for the sword. There were some great knowing looks between them, the silent, shared camaraderie. Wesley was the one that solved the puzzles (and also saved Cordy when the bell got stuck on her arm). It shows how much Angel really respects and loves Wesley and reinforces why he was so hurt and angry with Wesley's betrayal. I think Angel really looks up to Wesley and really values his friendship. In some ways, I can see Angel thinking that if someone like Wesley is his friend then he can't be all bad. That's partly why Wesley taking Connor hurt him so much. Not only did Wesley betray him but I think that it cut into his self esteme that a) Wesley would believe that he'd hurt Connor and b) that Wesley didn't come to him with what he'd found in the prophacy. Cordy may be his link to humanity but I think Wesley's friendship helped him have greater self-esteme and self-respect. Here was some one with enormous intelligence and integrity, an ex-watcher no less, who had chosen to help him and to be his friend. I think that means a great deal to Angel. I hope for both of them, they can get that back.
I absolutly loved this episode and loved Angel in it. All the stuff in his 'dream' was just so sweet. It turned me into a 16 year old 'fangirl'. Especially second time around, viewing it in the context of this is Angel's 'perfect day', this is what he truely wants, I kept on finding myself saying 'awww, bless him'. He's just so sweet and really does have such a big heart.
Ok, stopping now before I start typing 'I luv Angel' and writing 'Angel 4 Yaby' on my desk ;o)
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LOL! -- Rahael, 09:13:39 03/29/03 Sat
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Angel & Wesley (spoilers) -- Scroll, 12:52:42 03/29/03 Sat
I also liked how they interacted when they went searching for the sword. There were some great knowing looks between them, the silent, shared camaraderie. Wesley was the one that solved the puzzles (and also saved Cordy when the bell got stuck on her arm). It shows how much Angel really respects and loves Wesley and reinforces why he was so hurt and angry with Wesley's betrayal. I think Angel really looks up to Wesley and really values his friendship. In some ways, I can see Angel thinking that if someone like Wesley is his friend then he can't be all bad.
I'm an Angel/Wes shipper myself (friendship as well as slash) so I was ecstatic to see them get along in this ep. Working in tandem, backing each other up. Very yin/yang.
I absolutly loved this episode and loved Angel in it. All the stuff in his 'dream' was just so sweet. It turned me into a 16 year old 'fangirl'. Especially second time around, viewing it in the context of this is Angel's 'perfect day', this is what he truely wants, I kept on finding myself saying 'awww, bless him'. He's just so sweet and really does have such a big heart.
Heh, I didn't go that far but I did smile indulgently and say, "Angel is such a dork!" when I rewatched the ep. The only part I can't stand is Cordelia's weepy confession. Sorry, it just makes me cringe to see Cordy abase herself and equate sleeping with Connor with 150 years of murder and mayhem. Could just be me though.
Very found of "Awakening" though. Love the head-trip and the surprise ending. Staying unspoiled has its advantages -- though my resistence is crumbling as the season moves along!
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Re: Victories? Thoughts on 'Showtime' and 'Awakening' (spoilers, aired AtS4 eps) -- Rahael, 09:30:44 03/29/03 Sat
I enjoyed both eps - I thought that Showtime was a little uneven, but Eve was very creepy. Tempting the SITs to lose hope and give up on Buffy. I liked the FE Buffy/Spike scenes - at one point didn't she even refer to herself as 'Buffy', rather than the FE playing Buffy? "She/I won't come for you." Helping Spike get even more confused. Touching moment at the end.
I've already seen Awakenings, and the first time round I watched it with someone who was totally unspoilt, and that was so cool! This time around we were all spoilt, so the hook wasn't so compelling. It's worth noting that Showtime had a hook at the end too.
At the time I kept giving mysterious hints that the Indiana Jones movie that Awakeninings reffed had a big clue to the future. This was that the female love interest turns out to be bad.
Cordy's conversation with Angel in the garden was hoot. Evil has more IQ indeed.
Wow.. Most of you people really don't get it.. -- Bar, 16:50:28 03/28/03 Fri
Having been a friend of Angel's for a year and a little over three months now, I've seen the progression of his self-discovery from some serious denial at the beginning, when he swore it was just some sort of multiple personality disorder outcropping, to when he thought maybe there were two people inside him.. A human, what you people on here would call a "real person" named William, a name I haven't used in, oh, 9 months or so now, to someone who has at least come to terms with who he is, if not loves himself.
If any of you think he's posting this for sympathy, or because he likes the idea that people on here might think that he's really Angel... You can dismiss that notion right now. Because that just isn't it, at all. Period, end of sentence.
What he is: a man in pain. A man who was hoping to vent some of the issues he has with B:tvS and A:tS with some mature individuals who wouldn't judge him for who he was. And other than, oh, Random, Scroll, and LadyStarlight, I didn't see many of those individuals. Oh, and "just a poster.." or something like that.
I'm nobody special. A friend who was willing to believe in what my friend told me. But I do know this much: if he's lying, he's doing a god-damned good job of it, because I haven't been able to discern ONE little incongruity in all these long months. And last I checked, as a web of lies becomes that complex, it becomes all too easy to slip up. Angel hasn't slipped up once.
What I also know is that Angel is one of the most wonderful, caring people I know. I would be the first to tell you that he's also completely insane, but please note that I say so in a completely loving manner, and it's only sarcasm and teasing on my part. From him, this would warrant an extended middle finger and a "stfu".
When I started reading this thread, I thought that maybe Angel'd finally found someplace that could accept him, despite his experiences in being who he is. I guess I was wrong.
But, explain these things away: burn scars appeared when he touched a cross, once. Holy water causes him pain. When he doesn't sleep, his personality becomes so like Angelus that it's scary. He hasn't hurt anyone yet, that I know of, which shows such inhuman control even when control isn't there that you just have to admire the guy, but at the same time.. Seriously. Two days before the PC return of Eliza Dushku, a surprizing realization caused just that to happen. My first meeting with Angelus, you might say. I was terrified out of my mind, even though I live two or three states south of him. You can say that these are all psychological reactions to what he thinks should be true, and that it's some sort of psychotic reaction, or something. Whatever, I don't believe that.
Anyway, my intent was not to insult anyone, or to flame, or bash, or anything like that. Just to give you an insight into why I believe in Angel.
Finally: there are two things that I know Angel is not
1: A liar
2: A troll (he's actually quite good-looking, though I'll deny saying that.)
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Re: Wow.. Most of you people really don't get it.. -- Bar, 16:53:48 03/28/03 Fri
Also, that was supposed to be a reply to something, but obviously was not, so I'm sorry for starting a new thread. :\
I seem to be message board retarded.
BuffyRadio.com mentioned the Annotated Buffy on their last show!!! -- Rob, 12:12:32 03/29/03 Sat
If you go to http://www.showtalkers.com and listen to Episode #26, they talk about my Six Feet Under site and the Annotated Buffy in last minute or so of the show!! They even said that they might want me as a guest on the show some time soon to discuss my sites. How cool is that?!?
Rob
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Bonzai! -- CW, 12:20:34 03/29/03 Sat
And other words of congratulations. You've earned it, Rob!
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Congrats, Rob! -- Scroll, 12:31:50 03/29/03 Sat
Very happy for you! Hope you do get interviewed or discussed again. It's always great when fans get acknowledged for their hard work and creativity. If you are ever on the BuffyRadio show, let us know ahead of time so we can tune in, okay?
*thumbs up to Rob*
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Definitely! Thanks, guys! :o) -- Rob, 13:06:33 03/29/03 Sat
As if I would deprive you all of hearing the melodious tones of my voice lol!
Rob
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Gee, they never asked ME to do a guest spot on their show -- Masq, 13:30:56 03/29/03 Sat
And they live in the Bay Area, same as me...
I did meet them, though, and they gave me a gift CD of a bunch of their shows, not to mention a special mention of ATPo on their show...
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Oh, no! I'm sorry, Masq! Don't want to steal your thunder! -- Rob (definitely not a ThunderStealer), 13:35:59 03/29/03 Sat
And that's really odd, come to think of it, since your site's been established so much longer than mine, and is more well-known.
Rob
The Malapropian Managerie -- Celebaelin, 12:29:20 03/29/03 Sat
In a recent poll 0.73% of the population found these substitutions slightly amusing or better. Although another question in the same poll found that more than 75% of people did not trust statistics. Hoping that you find these deliberate misunderstandings at least vaguely risible, but with a slight inkling that that is unlikely.
synthetic piranhas (syncretic paranas)
the parakeet (the parclete)
primates have cat boxes (primative katabasis)
misty cool koala (mystical kabala)
pseudochimp (psychopomp)
an horse tail (a Norse tale)
untended python (extensive pantheon)
surly vultures (early cultures)
platypus conurbations (platitudinous connotations)
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ROFL! -- dub ;o), 14:11:46 03/29/03 Sat
And then there was my sister, just yesterday:
"That's Spaghetti?"
When I pointed out a neighbourhood cat, saying, "That's Big Eddie."
;o)
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Re: The Malapropian Managerie -- mundusmundi, 16:26:52 03/29/03 Sat
Oh, what the hell....malapropisms are fun. My dad, a wonderful and insightful man, is a master of such. As a minor but amusing example, "Scapegoat," in his hands, becomes "Escape goat." Then, as an unintentional example, a couple weeks ago in class, a friend clutched her stomach, held up a bag of something or other and said, "I wish I hadn't eaten these," but she said it so fast that we misunderstood it as "I wish I were an atheist." Finally, my all-time favorite malaprop was in college, when the pop hit "Our Lips Are Sealed" was playing (or "My Lips Are Sealed," I forget which), a guy in our dorm sang it up and down the hall repeatedly and without irony as "Alex the Seal."
I'm sorry, how are all of you doing anyway?
--mm
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Great, mundus, doing just great. Nice to see you -- Random, 16:42:43 03/29/03 Sat
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Doing well, thanks! Great to see you again! -- LadyStarlight, 16:44:58 03/29/03 Sat
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Scapegoat -- Celebaelin, 16:52:48 03/29/03 Sat
Don't be too harsh on the old man, escape goat is the origin of scapegoat after all. Two goats were taken to a place of sacrifice, one was ritually slaughtered and the other set free, the one that was killed was an offering to the god(s), the other, the escapee goat, carried away the sins of the sacrificer(s)- hence scapegoat.
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Re: Ah, interesting. Learn something new every day. -- mm, 06:41:51 03/30/03 Sun
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And with a possible demon connection... -- Darby, 12:34:06 03/30/03 Sun
...Check out
http://www.word-detective.com/051600.html#scapegoat
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Just fine and dandy! How about yourself? -- LittleBit, 10:28:44 03/30/03 Sun
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The song malaprops are called mondegreens -- Vickie, 18:11:47 03/30/03 Sun
As in "They have killed Lord Randall and Lady Mondegreen" (laid him on the green).
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I LOVE Mondegreens! -- dub ;o), 17:51:14 03/31/03 Mon
They're one of the few things that consistently bring me to the point of hysteria, laughing so hard it hurts.
One fave that I'm pretty sure showed up here a few months ago...that Bob Dylan standard:
The ants are my friends
They're blowin' in the wind...
;o)
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you can get that one on a button! -- anom, 19:23:08 03/31/03 Mon
It's not even a custom one--& it has a drawing of the ants blowing in the wind! Hope this isn't too promotional--Nancy's a friend of mine, so at least it's not self-promotion. You can go straight to her site's search page & enter part of that mondegreen. (If I'd known, I could've picked it up for you at Lunacon last weekend!)
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Edward Eager, Christmas Magic -- Vickie, 23:03:55 03/31/03 Mon
The first mondegreens I ever experienced (knowingly, anyway) were in this book. It's about a family of three children <long story snipped>...and the young boy rides home on the sled singing his versions of Christmas Carols.
"Good King Wenslas' car backed out, on a piece of Steven!"
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While Shepherds Washed Their Socks By Night -- Celebaelin, 23:14:59 03/31/03 Mon
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oh yeah, & an on-purpose mondegreen -- anom, 00:02:30 04/01/03 Tue
My family was on vacation, & my brother wanted to play some (audio)tapes, but we didn't have a working tape player. He said, "Well, maybe we can bum a boombox off somebody." Couldn't help it--I started singing: "Bummin' a boombox / Bummin' a boombox / Lord have mercy, we gotta go bum a boombox."
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Re: oh yeah, & an on-purpose mondegreen -- Celebaelin, 01:17:54 04/01/03 Tue
I remember trying to do just that at a festival one time, offering beer for the use of a boom box that is, and getting the impression that whilst in theory everything was kinda communal in reality it was spuriously portrayed, sorry, a curiously poor trade.
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ROFL! HAHAHAHAHAHAH!!! -- dub ;o), 11:20:20 04/01/03 Tue
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Re: The song malaprops are called mondegreens -- Celebaelin, 18:05:17 03/31/03 Mon
Not forgetting the reason why HM The Queen is one of the worlds biggest plum retailers
Send her Victorias
Happy and Glorious
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I'm a plum? -- Victoria, 21:54:05 03/31/03 Mon
Is that a compliment?
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Re: I'm a plum? -- Celebaelin, 23:12:15 03/31/03 Mon
Not for a woman, at least not in the colloquial sense I'm afraid. I'll tell you if you want but you won't like it. Victoria plums were named after Queen Victoria I think but anyway, in case you didn't know, the line should be Send her victorious.
You're also a sponge (a sponge cake that is) and a lake and a railway station (several of those I think) and a waterfall and an entire territory of South West Australia and...well, you get the idea.
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The bad diction in pop singing invites this sort of thing. -- CW, 08:38:21 04/01/03 Tue
I've always paid very little attention pop music. The whole time the 60's hit "Help me, Rhonda" was on the top of the charts I liked the tune, but thought the lyrics seemed a bit strange - "Help me wander. Help, help me wander."
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statistics & malapropisms -- anom, 17:41:31 03/29/03 Sat
"In a recent poll 0.73% of the population found these substitutions slightly amusing or better."
Really, so few? Well, you can add me to that group, but it's mostly because I don't know what 44.44% of the original phrases mean.
"Although another question in the same poll found that more than 75% of people did not trust statistics."
But did you know that 68.2% of people are more likely to believe a statistic if it has a decimal point in it?
As for more malapropisms, I thought I heard on the radio the other day that someone was acting "within a gender of...". What came after that phrase made me realize the speaker had said "with an agenda of...." Well, it was a BBC feed, so the person had actually put in what sounded like an "r." (Ooh, are we gonna get into accents now?)
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Gender Agenda and other retractions! -- Celebaelin, 20:14:11 03/29/03 Sat
Or indeed that 83.2% of statistics are made up on the spur of the moment anyway.
I've always loved the quote
"The honourable member uses statistics as a drunken man uses a lampost, for support rather than illumination."
Disraeli I think, but pretty funny whoever it was.
The first post arose, as you seem to have guessed, as a result of my travels 'in search of the Sun' as a bit of light relief.
What is a little less relieving following our previous exchange of posts is that I'm now finding Sun fertility aspects and female Sun deities all over the place
Cerunos, Tlahuizcalpantecuhtli, Huitzilopochtli, Freyr and Shiva all have Sun and Fertility links (should have remembered about the Shivalinga). It's still not as common as I would have expected though.
Lots of female Sun deities as well Cherokee, Australian Aboriginal, Innuit, Japanese and probably others (still looking). When the Sun is female the Moon is invariably male however, why I wonder?
Still lots of Warriors, Watchers and a growing number of Wounds 'coming to light'. But other concepts, or possibly archetypes, as well.
C
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Wasn't Diana the Moon? And Luna? -- Darby, 06:47:27 03/30/03 Sun
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Re: Wasn't Diana the Moon? And Luna? -- Celebaelin, 09:39:50 03/30/03 Sun
Slight misunderstanding I think, I wrote
When the Sun is female the Moon is invariably male however, why I wonder?
not
Whilst the Sun may be female the Moon is invariably male however, why I wonder?
Maybe that isn't too clear either, what I mean to say is that IF the sun is female THEN the Moon is male. I hope that straightens out any Confucians impractically leaping, sorry, confusions syntactically speaking.
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Re: -- aliera, 08:18:18 03/30/03 Sun
Re: female sun goddesses... I had the sense that these were the older goddesses.
Re: Male moon gods...There's also Min in Egypt male fertility god associated with the moon... just an odd side note, he came up when I was doing some research on Lurky last year (Lurky being Spike's soul restoration demon).
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Re: Nut -- Celebaelin, 10:05:20 03/30/03 Sun
Certainly the cultures from which they originate are more remote, that would seem like fairly good evidence that the female Sun male Moon scheme predates the male Sun which appears to start in Mesopotamia 'the cradle of humanity'.
Let's give a big hand to our visitors from Upper and Lower Egypt, the Sun Light and Sky Gods of the Pharoes applause
Akusaa - goddess of sunset.
Hathor - goddess of alcohol, beauty, childbirth, infants, dancing, death, fertility, joy, love, marriage, music, the sky.
Min - god of fertility, rain, roads, sky, thunder, travelers, virility (and the Moon it seems). Similar in aspect to the Aztec Tlaloc.
Nephthys - goddesses of death, sunset.
Athor - goddess of light.
Mehturt - goddess of sky.
Horus - god of the sky.
Khepra - god of the rising sun (=Ra?)
Menthu - god of the sun, war.
Nut - goddess of the sky.
Ra - god of re-birth, the sun. Also called Re.
Seker - god of death, light.
Shu - god of air, light, wind. Perhaps I shuld mention Thoth here as well.
Set - god of destruction, drought, evil, storms, black magic, thunder, the desert. Also called Seth.
I include Set partially because he fits my scheme and partially because of other resonances, more of which later. Nephthys was a bit of a surprise when I caught wind of her, charming woman for the most part of course but enbalming fluid has never been my favourite perfume.
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cool! -- anom, 23:27:58 03/30/03 Sun
"The first post arose, as you seem to have guessed, as a result of my travels 'in search of the Sun' as a bit of light relief."
I did? No I didn't--I had no idea where your menagerie came from! I think my favorite is the "misty cool koala." And how about a 2nd-generation malapropism: I read "untended python" as "unintended python" (would that be unwitting quotage of a certain British sketch comedy troupe?)! I like the Disraeli (or whoever) quote.
"...I'm now finding Sun fertility aspects and female Sun deities all over the place"
Awright! I like finding exceptions to usual patterns! (You knew my posting name was short for "anomalous," didn't you?)
"When the Sun is female the Moon is invariably male however, why I wonder?"
But I see in your post below that Egyptian gods of the sun & the moon were both male. Were these 2 the only gods of the sun & of the moon? I notice there are multiple god/desses of light & sky. As for why it's common to assign 1 gender to the sun & the other to the moon, I think it has to do w/the human tendency to seek dichotomies on the one hand & correspondences on the other. It's the same as wanting to decide certain abstract characteristics are feminine & others masculine. I'm also thinking of the yin/yang system--even though each is said to contain some of the other, the attributes associated w/each seem to be fixed. Of course, I could be wrong about this--anyone, feel free to set me straight.
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Re: cool! -- Celebaelin, 00:36:41 03/31/03 Mon
What? Both male? Hold on...yes that happens a fair bit now you mention it (often Sun and Moon are the eye(s) of one god, as with Horus) but if there is a female Sun, as there is in the Egyptian pantheon, Hathor, then there will be a male moon as well (so far), more than one in the case of the ancient Egyptians. Khonsu and Yah are both Moon gods, maybe there's another clear cut Sun goddess somewhere along the Nile.
The Egyptians apparently had over 2000 deities over their history, some of the ones on my list in the above post don't make this list but you can check out quite a few of them at
http://touregypt.net/godsofegypt/
and some more at
http://stout.mybravenet.com/public_html/h/myth-cul.htm#Egypt
although in this case it's not much more than a list of names and areas of control.
It could be an anthropomorphic thing except it couldn't, astrologomorphic I mean. At any rate a way of interpreting nature and the universe in terms readily accessable to human beings with even the foggiest notion of anatomy. Mental attitudes are probably more of a sliding scale in virtualy every respect (although the normal distribution curve may be offset for the two main sexual genotypes).
Misty cool koala is definitely my favourite too - image of a small grey marsupial bear wearing Roy Orbison shades while whisps of water vapour glide past slowly in the surrounding air.
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Re: cool! -- aliera, 03:30:13 03/31/03 Mon
Misty cool koala is definitely my favourite too - image of a small grey marsupial bear wearing Roy Orbison shades while whisps of water vapour glide past slowly in the surrounding air.
Mine too altho for some odd reason I want to say minty cool. Too much TV as a child. I thought you might have got those from Touregypt...thank goodness for the Egyptians and their thousands of gods; you can always find something there. The cool thing about Min is he was a liminal god one on the edges.
I read something the other day that proposed that that this splitting into opposites was a part of the development of written language. I wish I could remember where but if you saw the piles of papers everywhere you understand why not! What intrigues me about the older tales is the question of if we really understand them since our experiences of the world must be so different; imagine someone trying to translate Buffy with all it's pop culture references thousands of years in the future. Another point of curiosity is what people thought before we had written language.
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Solar eclipses -- Celebaelin, 09:31:25 03/31/03 Mon
With female Sun and male Moon a solar eclipse is, in every case I've seen where a story is given, seen as a sexual union (Australian Aboriginal), sexual assault (Japanese), or rape (inuit). I haven't as yet found a Cherokee myth of a solar eclipse. With a male Sun the eclipse tends to be interpreted as more of a battle between the friendly and hostile forces of nature, one with a loser but without lethal results. I think it's safe to say that this is not as meaningful to a female listener as it would be to a male due to lack of direct personal association.
I think the tales have their source in the terms in which the cultures from which they originate are capable of understanding the world. Curiously this implies that warfare (rather than hunting) was a development of (male) human culture rather than something that evolved from remnant of the animal within. Or maybe there just weren't enough 'other tribe' people around for a decent scrap.
You certainly have to be careful with the Egyptian gods, I'm very tempted to say that such and such a god is just such and such a god wearing a very slightly different animal head (or in some cases even the same animal head) but I don't know if this is actually true, arguable anyway I imagine.
The Egyptian culture was long-lived but did they have so many gods because they had 6 millenia to 'find' them or was their culture so resilient (and a fertile area of research for mythological theories) because they had so many gods (and therefore everybody's opinion, everybody's own truth if you like, was represented there).
If you want to say minty cool koala it's allowed under section 41.3.1a of the Use of Malaprops on Informal and Jocular Occasions Act (1988) but with the specific subclause that any subsequent reference to advertisemnts must substitute 'too spaced' for toothpaste and 'd'you ring them?' for chewing gum.
C
Buffy, The Hermit, and WtP..spoiler speculation based upon the phrase 'From Beneath you, it devours' -- Rufus, 18:01:18 03/29/03 Sat
Anyone who has read a Group called The Stakehouse, know of a poster called William the Poet. I happened upon one of his/her posts awhile back and decided to look into what he/she said the following was the result......
From: "LeoraRufus"
Date: Fri Mar 7, 2003 2:17 am
Subject: Buffy, The Hermit, and WtP
From: "WilliamThePoet"
Posted at The Stakehouse:
Date: Thu Oct 3, 2002 12:11 am
Subject: Beneath You and the Tarot
Just time for a quickie . . .
Saw something posted about the "Beneath You" title and a Tarot tie-in that certainly represents some creative thinking. So I thought I'd drop a little something else into the mix for all of you to consider . . .
The older name for the Tarot trump, "The Hermit," was "Time." And it was explicitly connected with Chronos in the old writings. Time . . . who devours his children (that's a direct quote, kiddies, found in more than one
of the old guides to the Tarot.
So . . . if you had The Hermit in the fourth card position in a Celtic Cross layout . . . you'd literally have, "beneath you, it devours."
Sleep on that one . . . and then you might start wondering exactly what that particular Tarot trump in that particular position might fortell for Buffy this year . . . and whether it's upright or reversed . . . and why.
WilliamthePoet
. . . who suggests that you look beyond Spike for this one . . .
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First I re-posted the Tarot post from WtP, now I'll give you some more information on what WtP is talking about......
The Hermit
Here we meet the ancient god Cronos, whose name means Time. In myth Uranus (Heaven) and Gaea (Earth) mated and produced the first race, the Titans or earth-gods, of whom Cronos was the youngest. But Uranus regarded his progeny with horror, for they were ugly and imperfect and made of flesh. Thus he shut the Titans up in the depths of the underworld so that mey might not offend his eyes. But Gaea grew angry and meditated a terrible vengeance upon her husband. From her bosom she drew forth flint, fashioned a sharp scythe, and gave it to the astute Cronos, her last-born.
When evening fell Uranus came as usual to rejoin his wife. While he unsuspectingly slept. Cronos, who with his mothers aid lay in hiding, armed himself with the sythe, castrated his father, and cast the bleeding genitals into the sea.
Cronos then liberated his brothers and became sovereign of the earth. Under his long patient reign the work of Creation was completed. This time on earth became known as the Golden Age, because of the abundance over which Cronos presided. As god of time he ruled over the orderly passage of the seasons, birth and growth followed by death and gestation and rebirth, and was worshipped both as a grim reaper who set the boundaries past which man and nature could not go, and as god of fertility. But Cronos could not himself accept the cyclical laws which he had inaugurated, for when it was prophesied that one day his own son would overthrow him as he had his father Uranus, he swallowed his children as they were born so that he could preserve his rule unchanged. Thus follows the story of Zeus, the youngest of Cronos's children, whom we met in the card of the Emperor and who in myth overthrew Cronos and ushered in the reign of the Olympian gods. Cronos was banished, some say to the depths of the underworld, but others say to the Blessed Isles where he sleeps, awaiting the beginning of a new Golden Age.
The Mythic Tarot by Juliet Sharman-Burke and Liz Greene
So, what does the card of the Hermit mean? ......
On an inner level Cronos, the Hermit, is an image of the last of the four Moral Lessons which the fool must learn: the lesson of time and the limitations of mortal life. Nothing is allowed to live beyond its span, and nothing remains unchanged; and this is a simple and obvious facet of life which despite its simplicity and obviousness is painful for us to learn and often only comes with age and hard experience. Cronos is a god who both embodies the meaning of time and also rebels against it. So he is humbled and overthrown, and learns wisdom in solitude and silence. In many ways he is an image of the body itself, which inexorably grows older yet rebels against its mortal fate. The problem of solitude and the discovery that one is ultimately alone and mortal are dilemmas which all human beings must face. Acceptance of this condition is also, in a mysterious way, a true inner seperation from the parents and from childhood, and because it means the sacrifice of the fantasy that someday, somewhere, someone will come and magically make it all better. 'And then they lived happily ever after' is a sentiment that cannot survive in Cronos's world. Youth passes into maturity, and can never be regained in any concrete way; but memory and wisdom are distilled from the passage of time, and also the gift of patience.
The lesson of the Hermit is one which cannot be learned through struggle and conquest. Thus Cronos stands in counterpoint to Heracles, for stuggle will not stop time. Only acceptance of time yields the rewards of Cronos's Golden Age. Through enforced limitation and through circumstances which only time, not battle, can release, the Fool develops the reflective, introverted, solitary stance of Cronos the Hermit. Thus Cronos is in some ways an image of humility, which often begins with humiliation in the face of that which we cannot change, but which can result in a quality of stillness and serenity without which we cannot endure the obstacles and disappointments which life sometimes brings. However clever the intellect, however warm the heart, however strong the sense of identity, the vicissitudes of life would shatter us if we were unable to find somewhere within the patience and prudence of the Hermit, who teaches us how to endure and wait in silence.
The negative face of Cronos is calcification, a stubborn resistance to change and the passage of time. But the creative face of this ancient and ambivalent god is the shrewdness to change what we can, to accept what we cannot, and to wait in silence until we can tell the difference.
On a divinatory level, the card of Cronos, the Hermit, augurs a time of aloneness or withdrawl from the extraverted activities of life, so that the wisdom of patience may be aquired. There is an opportunity to build solid foundations if one is willing to wait. Thus the Fool at last arrives at maturity, having developed a mind and a heart, a firm sense of identity and finally a deep respect for his own limitations in a great passage of the round of time.
The Mythic Tarot by Juliet Sharman-Burke and Liz Greene
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So . . . if you had The Hermit in the fourth card position in a Celtic Cross layout . . . you'd literally have, "beneath you, it devours."
Sleep on that one . . . and then you might start wondering exactly what that particular Tarot trump in that particular position might fortell for Buffy this year . . . and whether it's upright or reversed . . . and why.
WilliamthePoet
. . . who suggests that you look beyond Spike for this one . . .
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First off......the reason people may want to look beyond Spike for the answer to this clue is the fact that in many posts I've seen Spike has been considered the Fool. In Tarot, the Fool represents a person on a journey through life.
Next you may want to think back to Giles's dream in Season four "Restless"......
"GILES: Well, it appears she's never heard the fable about patience.
(Buffy pulls them through crowds of people. Carnival booths, colorful lights.)
OLIVIA: Which one is that?
GILES: The, the one about the fox, and the, uh, less patient fox."
from transcript of Restless at Psyche's Transcripts
Now, to the Celtic Cross Spread in Tarot. This way of reading the cards is about the best known there is and I've seen one or two different orders the cards are read in, so I will use the one that goes with my deck of Mythic Tarot Cards and most others I've seen......
Celtic Cross spread
The Celtic Cross Spread
Card 1: This covers you (or me, him, her or them, depending on who the reading is for)
Card 2: This crosses you
Card 3: The crowns you
Card 4: This is beneath you
Card 5: This is behind you
Card 6: This is before you
Card 7: Yourself
Card 8: Your house
Card 9: Your hopes and fears
Card 10: What will come
Card one is sometimes called the Covering card and sometimes called the Significator. We will use the term Significator because the card which has been chosen for this position will reflect the situation, inner and outer, in which the individual finds himself or herself at the present moment.
Card two is called the Crossing Card, and describes that situation, inner and outer, which is generating conflict and obstruction in the immediate present. It is the thing which 'crosses' the seeker, and indicated the apparent nature of the problem. However, the Crossing Card is not necessarily negative in meaning, but simply represents the situation which is generating the conflict and stirring up matters. In a sense, it prevents the Significator from fully expressing, and causes blockage in life.
Card three is called the Crowning Card. It is apparent simply from its visual appearance - hanging directly over the Significator - that the card which appears in this position describes the atmosphere and situation with hang over the seeker in the immediate present. What is at the crown of something is what appears in full view on top; and thus the card which appears here reflects what is out on the surface and immediately apparent in the seeker's life.
Card four is called the Base of the Matter. This describes the inner and outer situation, drive, instinct, or aspiration which is really behind the apparent surface situation reflected by the Crowning Card. What is at the base is really what is at the root of the psyche, and often this card comes as a surprise to the seeker, who may not have been aware of an unconscious motivation which needs to be brought into awareness. We do not always act or feel things for the reasons we think, and the card which appears at the Base of the Matter will often contradict the apparent reason for our dillemma at the time of consulting the cards.
The Mythic Tarot by Juliet Sharman-Burke and Liz Greene
Looking at the Celtic Cross Spread you can clearly see that from Beneath you it Devours...but what you think is the problem may not be the Big Bad. From Psyche's Transcripts for Buffy season 2 Becoming 2.....
Angelus: Now that's everything, huh? No weapons... No friends... No hope.
Buffy closes her eyes and steels herself for whatever's coming.
Angelus: Take all that away... and what's left? He draws the sword back and thrusts it directly at her face. With lightning-fast reflexes she swings up with both arms and catches the blade between the palms of her hands. She opens her eyes and meets his.
Buffy: Me.
Buffy has died and brought back to life where she had to relearn how to live in this world, now it's all threatened by the First, but is the First the problem or just part of the last lesson Buffy has to learn?
Rufus
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Look to the dates on WtP and my posts....this information is only a hint and isn't a specific spoiler (or is it?). I left it up to the reader to come to any conclusions based upon the Tarot and some quotes. I never say what I think about the information. One thing to remember...no matter how big the bad, they have been easy to destroy or stop once Buffy was ready to understand how.
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Re: Thanks Rufus! -- aliera, 04:47:55 03/30/03 Sun
That was very interesting, especially in the light of the possibility that it is Buffy's resurrection that may have disrupted the slayer line. It's my deck also by the way. Do you remember what prompted the interest in the Hermit reference? Was the word mentioned in the ep?
***
For anyone who is interested a collection of WtP's posts fron 2/02 through through 2/03 can be found here: http://www.past30.com/Stakehouse/stakehouse_archive_of_wtp.htm
The stakehouse itself makes good reading (you'll have to register to read) although it's so prolific that I dropped it this year since I found I wasn't even keeping up with this board! Also it's a spoilerboard for those who might not know.
Someone asked a while back when we were discussing Yeats and the tarot about the posts from last year regarding Season 6 possible tarot references. William's take on those is below:
----- Original Message -----
From: "WilliamThePoet"
Posted at The Stakehouse: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_stakehouse/
Sent: Saturday, May 4, 2002 10:48 pm
Subject: Joss's StakeHouse: Another look at those playing cards . . .
Okay, you can deal me in . . . *gr*
If you've checked my previous posts, then you'll know that I have an interest in Tarot and connected up the original shirt numbers with a card reading quite a while ago. But if we're actually seeing conventional playing cards on Warren's shirt -- is it only Warren's shirt we've seen them on? -- then perhaps it's time to look at a different system of cartomancy . . .
The Gypsies used conventional playing cards for fortune-telling as well. The Joker in our current playing card deck actually did *not* come directly from the Fool in the Tarot as many people believe. It originated in the U.S., as the high card in decks made for the once-popular game of Euchre. Since the game was originally called "Juker," the transition to "Joker" happened rather naturally and a lot of the Fool associations were picked up as well when it is used in foretelling the future. But back to the Gypsies.
In the Gypsy system, the Joker stands for "fresh starts, new beginnings, and taking a risk." It might be well to remember that underneath all of what I'm about to say, the ultimate outcome is going to be those risky new beginnings. Sort of, back to seas . . . ahh . . . square one? *gr*
Now, if what undead has said is correct about the cards she saw on Warren's shirt, then the "hand," that was displayed would probably either be a royal flush (the highest poker hand, Ace-King-Queen-Jack-Ten of the same suit), or a simple straight (Ace-King-Queen-Jack-Ten of different suits). Those would
be the two most logical "hands" to appear on a normal shirt, with the absolute most logical one being the royal flush since it's the ultimate winning hand.
If any other "hand" appears on that shirt, I would imagine that it might be rather significant and indicate that the shirt was specially made . . .
Let's assume for a moment that what is actually there is a royal flush in spades. Here is the interpretation using the Gypsy system:
Ace of Spades -- Emotional conflict, obsession, and death. Issue brought to a head.
King of Spades -- A very ambitious and domineering man. Possibly a man with dark hair.
Queen of Spades -- A widow. A dark-haired woman who is unscrupulous and willful.
Jack of Spades -- A well meaning, but unreliable, youth who is immature. May have dark hair.
Ten of Spades -- Misfortune and worry. Unwelcome news. Possible imprisonment.
Now, I don't know if any of you want to try to see any hints about the rest of this season in that particular reading . . . *veg* I'll leave it to you to connect the dots, so to speak -- especially that little tidbit about the
dark-haired widow.
BTW, if the second card is the King of Clubs instead, then things might change a bit. The King of Clubs means an honest, generous and affectionate dark-haired man. Changes of other cards to clubs in the rest of the straight would have more positive meanings as well. Inclusion of hearts or diamonds would change things even more.
If anyone manages to see which cards are actually portrayed on the shirt before the episode airs, post them and I'll adjust the "reading." Otherwise, we can talk about it after the episode airs.
But don't worry about it. After all, they've already said that the numbers on the shirts had no meaning, so I'm certain the cards are just another coincidence. *gr*
WilliamthePoet
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----- Original Message -----
From: "WilliamThePoet"
Posted at The Stakehouse: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_stakehouse/
Sent: Sunday, May 5, 2002 11:56 am
Subject: Joss's StakeHouse: Re: Another look at those playing cards . . .
Since some of our newer members apparently aren't able to access the message
archives, and since some of this might possibly be of interest in the
remainder of this season and into next season, I'm going to repeat the post
on the Tarot card symbolism of the shirt numbers in the first episodes of
Season Six that I made back in January. Here it is:
"Well, no one seems satisfied by the explanation given by spoilerslayer for
the numbers on the shirts relating to episode numbers . . . and no one accepts
Marti's explanation that it was just a fashion statement . . . and everyone
is still coming up with complicated theories about them . . . . so, I guess I
might as well throw this little bit of information into the mix.
"Sometimes, at the beginning of a season, wouldn't you like to get a peek
into the future and see how things are going to go? Sure you would! And looking
into the future brings us to the subject of divination or fortune-telling,
which brings us to the Tarot . . . .
"Card 7 -- The Chariot
Dawn
You are being carried toward your destination, and there is nothing that you
can do to change or alter it. Simply sit back and accept it. This card
promises ultimate success after effort and triumph over obstacles.
"Card 11 -- Justice
Willow
This card refers to partnerships, among other things. It also refers to
being accountable for your past actions, and for any imbalances or misdeeds in
your past. The number on Willow's shirt was off-centered, which could indicate
that it is meant to be interpreted as "reversed" in a Tarot reading. If so, it
indicates the breakup of a partnership or relationship, and emphasizes the
negative nature of past actions that must be accounted for, and imbalances
that must be corrected.
"Card 13 -- Death
Xander
Boy has this one been spoiled . However . . . in the Tarot, the card of death usually does not refer to physical death. It refers instead to renewal or a complete change of life circumstances. It can be a re-birth so dramatic that the new person bears almost no relationship to the old person. It also sometimes indicates that this change will be brought about by a major loss.
"Card 2 -- The High Priestess
Dawn
Represents a strong, feminine influence who will have a major effect on the person's life. Can indicate that the person will encounter a woman counselor who will guide or mentor them in learning to trust their intuition and inner power.
"Card 55 -- The Five of Swords or the Queen of Pentacles
Dawn
If you take the traditional order of suits of the Tarot, and place the Major Trumps first, then the 55th card is the five of swords. This is the card of self-interest, and looking out for number one. It can also represent lying, cheating, betrayal, criminal activity -- all kinds of negative behavior that occurs when you are thinking of no one but yourself and being immature.
"If you put the Major Trumps last in the deck, then the 55th card is the Queen of Pentacles. This card represents an "earth mother" type of person, who is warm, caring, trusting, and always concerned about others. She is the one people turn to in times of trouble. It's appearance in a reading usually indicates a need to come under the influence of this kind of a person.
"Card 8 -- Strength
Buffy
This card represents a struggle between two parts of yourself -- the lower self and the higher self. Your battle is against the beast within you. This number was tilted, again possibly indicating that it should be interpreted as reversed. Reversed, it warns against weakness and self-indulgence.
"Of course, the simplest explanation for the numbers on the shirts is also still the most obvious -- that they show who is on the "team", i.e., who are the core Scoobies. Kinda overdoing it with Dawn, weren't they? Like maybe they didn't want anyone to misunderstand something? *gr*"
End of copied message.
I believe that at least a couple of people on the writing staff at ME have fairly extensive knowledge of the occult. Hope that clears things up. *gr*
WilliamthePoet
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
WilliamthePoet
. . . saying that in Space, no one can hear you say it's a two season arc.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----- Original Message -----
From: "WilliamThePoet"
Posted at The Stakehouse: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_stakehouse/
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 4:51 AM
Subject: Joss's StakeHouse: Re: About those numbers on the shirts . . . .(Redux)
Of course, The Star as Spike's card would certainly be an interesting tie-in to the whole Tarot prophecy thing, wouldn't it. Along with what you mentioned, The Star has some other interesting meanings: darkness, with a hint of light in it; desires become reality; the receipt of a gift; new beginnings. That's assuming that it's upright, of course *gr* But, of course, all of that would have had to have been placed in S4 to pay off later . . . )
And no, no one else caught the Robin Wood Tarot deck before you did.
WilliamthePoet
. . . who now can't stop "All You Need Is Love" from running through his head.
----------------------------------------------------
A little more on the Hermit:
WISDOM OFFERED OR SOUGHT
Divinatory Meanings: A meeting with someone who will help the querent find the goal; silent counsel. The courage to do what is right. Having an open mind and being willing to accept the help that is offered.
Reverse Meanings: Turning away counsel. Listening to ill counsel or following the same. Being Peter Pan.
And Relating the Fool the Star and the Hermit
A further hint may be offered in Waite's poem: "At the End of Things" from The Collected Poems of Arthur Edward Waite. (The text of the poem can be accessed at http://www.adepti.com thanks to the research of A. Grinder.)
The poem describes a spiritual pilgrim:
And a star I stole for the good of my soul,
Lest the darkness came down on my sins...
I carried the star; that star led me...
Did my star more than the cozening guide?
The fool, as I think, at the chasm's brink...
Did, even as I, in the end rejoice.
...shows a similar symbol, a radiant hexagon which he describes as "The Hexagon, encompassed by a solar glory." The Frontispiece in Waite's Hermetic Museum shows the hermit following the bright hexagonal light being carried before him by a female spirit.
(http://www.tarotpassages.com/old_moonstruck/oneill/9.htm)
[> [>
Re: Thanks Rufus! -- Rufus, 06:03:05 03/30/03 Sun
Actually I had heard some general bitching about WtP and decided to take some posts from this season only and see what I could come up with. Notice I'm not saying exactly what I think because I prefer giving out the information I find and let everyone think about it. If someone asked my opinion now about WtP the only thing I can say is that at the very least this person has been spoiled cause there are two many right hints to be just guessing.
And thank you for the pre September 02 tarot posts cause I don't have anything pre September cause I didn't pay much attention to WtP last year. I do enjoy the idea of looking at the show as a puzzle to solve, and it's nice to see where some source info is coming from.
I believe that at least a couple of people on the writing staff at ME have fairly extensive knowledge of the occult. Hope that clears things up. *gr*
For those who think WtP just may be one of the ME staff...they should ask "who does the most research for what they write?" but only if you think WtP is one or more of the writers....;)
[> [> [>
Re: Thanks Rufus! -- aliera, 07:14:41 03/30/03 Sun
Sure, thanks for the reminder... I meant to dig those out a while ago. In addition to the general relevance of the shirt/ep/tarot numbers to the season6-7 arc on Buffy, they've also pulled them into Angel through the use of that Yeats poem, in the lines:
"Winter and summer till old age began
My circus animals were all on show,
Those stilted boys, that burnished chariot,
Lion and woman and the Lord knows what."
Later in the poem we then have:
"And when the Fool and Blind Man stole the bread
Cuchulain fought the ungovernable sea;"
I saw some of the discussions you noted. I don't know either but I don't worry about it too much... it justs adds another level of flavor to the teasing out of the mysteries and the show and I really enjoy it on that level.
:-)
[>
hmm very interesting! -- ponygirl, 08:22:04 03/30/03 Sun
I'm so used to seeing Spike as the Fool tha tI never considered Buffy in that role. Ponder ponder... Thanks for posting this, the Stakehouse is fun, I always picture that group as gathered in some musty decaying library trying to decipher every possible meaning from William the Poet's postings, but it's too spoilery for me to go to now.
You probably can't answer, Rufus, without going all spoilery, but I do wonder if Buffy is headed towards some sort devouring the children temptation, metaphorically speaking. To be tempted to deny power to those she feels are beneath her, repeating the cycle that had begun with the Council who created the Slayers but denied them knowledge and self-determination - or for her "children" to seek to usurp her in favour of someone else? I have no doubt that Buffy will succeed eventually, but interesting Times (my own tribute to WtP) certainly seem to be ahead.
[> [>
Re: hmm very interesting! -- Rufus, 19:12:31 03/30/03 Sun
I posted a few things over there about Fray and Buffy but they are way to spoilery to bring over here at the moment. When a certain show airs I'll post them. It is all about power but everyone seems to have a personal interpretation to what power is.
[> [>
Good post, PG! -- Rahael, 00:03:09 03/31/03 Mon
[>
wrong card though -- lunasea, 15:05:24 03/30/03 Sun
Buffy has died and brought back to life where she had to relearn how to live in this world, now it's all threatened by the First, but is the First the problem or just part of the last lesson Buffy has to learn?
The demon/big bad has always been symbolic of whatever Buffy is going through, so I would say it is both. It is overcoming the problem/learning her lesson that Buffy is able to beat the symbol and show that she has learned her lesson.
I have been disappointed in this season mainly because I was hoping to see how Joss symbolized what was going into Buffy's final lesson before enlightenment (as well as that enlightenment) and instead I have been subjected to Buffy's decline before she gets a clue. That lesson is being crammed into 5 or less episodes now.
But, if I was going to pick a card for beneath you it devours, it wouldn't be the Hermit. It would be the World, often symbolized by Ourobos in more modern decks, the snake that devours itself. It is the final card in the major arcana also. The unconsconscious forces which drive Buffy seem to fit this card better. She is the anima mundi.
[> [>
Re: wrong card though -- Rufus, 17:38:54 03/30/03 Sun
I think the Hermit card is perfect and timely as you will see a few eps from now.
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