March 2003 posts


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Questions I'd like to see answered (spoilers only to date and Angel promo) -- Darby, 08:36:46 03/14/03 Fri

This is for Angel. My eventual plan is to go back through all of the BtVS eps and total the unanswered questions - even the important ones should lead to a lengthy post.

Anyway...

I'm assuming that someone will save Faith - Wesley from the rubble, Faith herself, or my vote, Connor, who knew where Wes and Faith were going.

Will anybody believe me that when the Sanctuary (another Faith-centric episode, incidentally) spell went up, I wondered what might happen if Connor tried to hurt someone in the hotel? Really, ask Sara! But I'm wondering if the spell Lorne put up was the second one the Furies did for Karitas, the one that applies to everyone, including humans. Have humans hurt anyone since it went up? I'm not counting shots with tranquilizers, hardly violence at all.

Will the questions around Angel's first resouling be answered? Was it just Willow, or something more, something that will need to be tapped into for it to work again?

During Willow's attempt at a resouling, will we have Free-Range Angelus or Prisoner Angelus? Has Evil Analyst Angelus ever taken Willow on? Does he know about her recent past?

I'd like to find out just how much of each show's current apocalypse the other group has been aware of. Did Buffy see the all-day vamp buffet in LA as just an attempt to divert her from the First? It seems like a big thing for the Chosen Vampire Slayer to ignore!

How will Willow react to Dark Wesley and Redeemed Faith? Does she know more about how Faith-as-Buffy treated Tara and Riley? Does she even know about Faith's incarceration?

Will Will be consistent with what we've seen on Buffy? How powerful will the writers make her in LA?

Will her LA visit be between BtVS episodes, or will she miss one? Which one?

Is Wolfram and Hart completely gone?

Will Lindsay ever return? This might be an interesting time for him.

Where's Gwen? Will we see her again?

How long before someone catches on to Cordy, and how safe will they be?

Isn't a Faith-and-Wesley series looking more and more like an interesting spin-off? Much moreso than the pilot she's doing!

So what would you like to be answered sooner rather than later?
[> Some answers (spoilers to date and some future spoilers) -- Masq, 09:45:03 03/14/03 Fri

I'm wondering if the spell Lorne put up was the second one the Furies did for Karitas, the one that applies to everyone, including humans. Have humans hurt anyone since it went up? I'm not counting shots with tranquilizers, hardly violence at all.

Yes, Fred hit Angelus on the head with a glass vase. I assume this was deliberate to show that human violence was possible under the spell.

During Willow's attempt at a resouling, will we have Free-Range Angelus or Prisoner Angelus?

I assume we will know this next week.

How will Willow react to Dark Wesley and Redeemed Faith? Does she know more about how Faith-as-Buffy treated Tara and Riley? Does she even know about Faith's incarceration?

I suspect that even if Willow knows none of this, she will learn about it and be the one to explain it to the Sunnydale group when Faith shows up there. However, Angel has been in touch with the Sunnydale gang (Forever), as has Cordelia (Disharmony). Although they haven't been telling everybody everything (like, say, Harmony's a vampire), one assumes they told them some things. Buffy knew Faith went to prison in Consequences. Wesley's new personality--dark and heroic--will be something of a surprise, but Willow did meet and talk to him, presumably, at the end of AtS Season 2 when she came to tell them Buffy was dead.

Will Will be consistent with what we've seen on Buffy? How powerful will the writers make her in LA?

I imagine so. Did you see that promo? Willow looks like she did in "Get it Done" with the hair flying. Willow has taken to heart Buffy's advice about being more willing to use her magics, and there is a very good reason to use them here regardless-restoring Angel's soul.

Will her LA visit be between BtVS episodes, or will she miss one? Which one?

I think it was supposed to happen right after the events of 7.17 "Lies my parents told me", but UPN pushed that episode down a week and now the sequence might be out of order--it is now before 7.17. This could make Willow's leaving Sunnydale and return (with Faith?) not quite work chronologically.

Is Wolfram and Hart completely gone?

Only in this dimension. The Senior Partners are still out there, somewhere.

Will Lindsay ever return? This might be an interesting time for him.

Tim Minear said it was possible for him to return, but he said this over a year ago. One wonders if the Beast tracked Lindsey down and killed him for being an ex-employee of W&H. Hope not.

Where's Gwen? Will we see her again?

In Tahiti. Don't know.

How long before someone catches on to Cordy, and how safe will they be?

I hope Willow will do it, or better yet, Connor. But I'm unspoiled.

Isn't a Faith-and-Wesley series looking more and more like an interesting spin-off? Much moreso than the pilot she's doing!

Joss mentioned waiting a year before he did the spin-off, so if Eliza's new job doesn't work out, there could still be a Faith thing.

So what would you like to be answered sooner rather than later?

If this has been the real Cordelia all along, just possessed, or an evil Cordelia all along play-acting as if she were Cordelia, even to the camera when Cordelia was alone. I suspect she is the real Cordelia, and has been slowly taken over by something since her return to Earth. Cordelia's the biggest set of missing puzzle pieces in this unfinished puzzle we call AtS Season 4.
[> Re: Questions I'd like to see answered (spoilers only to date and Angel promo) -- maddog, 10:23:31 03/14/03 Fri

You're asking a lot of questions that can't be answered until next week at the earliest. SO it's not like they're behind...just means there's lots of loose ends to tie up...aren't there always?


I really don't think Buffy's had time to watch much news to know about what's happening in LA and even if she did know she doesn't have time to fix it...she has her own apocolypse to deal with and probably thinks Angel will handle whatever is going on.

I was always under the assumption all Willow needed was "that glowy orb thingy"(thank you Cordy) and the correct spell. Somehow I doubt they'd have a free range Angelus or she wouldn't be able to do much for him.

Dark Wesley? Are we jumping the gun just a bit? Besides, she'll just be happy to see he's not a little wimp like he was when in Sunnydale. I'm doubting we'll see much of his darker side this week. I'm sure the Sunnydale gang was kept up to date on what happened to Faith until the jailing. It was never really important to Buffy's world so they didn't mention it all that much. As for Faith, I think it'll take a little while for all of them to get used to a reformed Faith...it may even take a little demonstration and observation.

I'd say for continuity's sake they won't make her out to be arrogantly powerful...more like meekly powerful. I'm just hoping she can hold it together. The shows don't air in the right order (cause upn and wb couldn't work on a mutual schedule) but as far as I know Willow will receive a call and be gone for most of the next Buffy we see.

and some of the questions at the end are random? W&H? Lindsay? Gwen? Talk about random stretches. WHo knows?
[> [> Territory -- Veronica, 12:04:37 03/14/03 Fri

The fact that Buffy doesn't head down to LA when dark falls fits with the established internal logic of both shows that's been established, so it makes sense even if you don't know it's because they're on two different networks.

We learn from "Sanctuary" (Angel) and "The Yoko Factor" (BtVS) that for the peace of them both they've claimed territory... Buffy says to Angel: And then you order me out of *your* city... and We don't live in each other's worlds anymore. I had no right to barge in on yours and make judgments.

I guess that Buffy knows some of what's going on in LA, and assumes that the local hero will call her if she's needed. Of course, she obviously doesn't know the current condition of the local hero. Her heading down to LA with Angel's invite would be barging in on his "territory".

I'm guessing there will be a phone call from AI before anyone from Sunnydale who might go to LA to help would actually go.

-V
[> [> [> Speaking of phone calls...(spoilers up to 'Release') -- Sablehart, 12:38:35 03/14/03 Fri

While we're on the topic of unanswered questions, before Angel gets ready to lose his soul, he tells Wes that he has to make a few calls. I don't think its been addressed, but did anyone else think it might have been to Sunnydale? Since Faith didn't seem to know anything about Angelus being around, that's the only conclusion I see right now.
[> All I know is (re Cordelia)... -- Dariel, 10:38:08 03/14/03 Fri

I hope that the evil was controlling her before she slept with Connor the first time. The two of them together really creeps me out--I have to close my eyes whenever they kiss!
[> [> Which was worse? }:> (spoilerish Salvage) -- WickedPollster, 13:23:21 03/14/03 Fri

Cordy kissing Connor or Cordy kissing The Beast?

or Cordy kissing Wesley in BtVS? ::trying to think of more screen horror lipeage::


*Disclaimer for Cordelia: if she is possessed then she can't be held accountable for what her lips do.
[> [> [> The order in which I'd rank their horribleness -- Masq, 13:28:16 03/14/03 Fri

Worst: Cordelia kissing the Beast. Blech! (do you think they've gone further than that? Maybe he impregnated her)

Next-to-worse: Cordelia kissing Connor (hysterical blindness ensues afterwards, which makes it slightly less worse than Beastie-boy)

Least worse: Cordelia kissing Wesley in "Graduation".

I mean, c'mon, he was out of practice! He had yet to meet Lilah "hot lips" Morgan. Or done his rogue demon hunter gig.

It's funny, I was once trying to get a friend to start watching BtVS and we would regularly get together and watch the tapes. So there we are watching Cordelia and Wesley taking the books of the shelf and my friend comments, "I'd like to see those two make out." And I said "No you don't!" and a few seconds later she realized I was right!
[> [> [> [> My list is abit different than yours... (vague spoilish to Salvation) -- WickedBuffy, 15:20:20 03/14/03 Fri

Worst: Cordelia kissing Wesley in "Graduation". (I still have nightmares about that one. Even watching that episode for the fifth time, I squirm, cover my eyes and grit my teeth. Though kudos to him for the best acting of a bad kiss I've seen in a long time.)

Next-to-worse: Cordelia kissing Connor. (C'mon, now. Connor and Cordelia are closer in age than Angel and Cordilia. Connor grew up in a faster time dimension, it shouldn't be held against him. She acted his age anyway when they were hanging out together. Time isn't really linear, eh? Younger men are wonderful. Maybe she was impressed with what she already knew about him... so on... and so on

Least worse: Cordelia kissing the Beast. (I thought it was funny. Cordy was already acting so cartoonishly evil that it was like seeing someone kiss Goofy in Disneyland. Though I did worry if she had enough lip balm afterwards to take care of the horrific chapping that scene would produce. I don't even want to THINK about the kind of medical care she would need afterward if The Beast did impregnate her. ===:O


But the absolutely most gruesome kiss from an ME star? On Saturday Night Live when SMG did a parody of her kiss in "Cruel Intentions".
[> [> [> [> Masq...sometimes a girl has to take desperate measures to exfoliate....:):):) -- Rufus, 01:07:47 03/15/03 Sat

[> Re: Questions I'd like to see answered (spoilers only to date and Angel promo) -- Rufus, 01:06:16 03/15/03 Sat

I'm assuming that someone will save Faith - Wesley from the rubble, Faith herself, or my vote, Connor, who knew where Wes and Faith were going.

Save...an interesting word considering this weeks episode name.

Will anybody believe me that when the Sanctuary (another Faith-centric episode, incidentally) spell went up, I wondered what might happen if Connor tried to hurt someone in the hotel? Really, ask Sara! But I'm wondering if the spell Lorne put up was the second one the Furies did for Karitas, the one that applies to everyone, including humans. Have humans hurt anyone since it went up? I'm not counting shots with tranquilizers, hardly violence at all.

The spell was demon specific unlike the one Lorne had put up in Caritas.

Will the questions around Angel's first resouling be answered? Was it just Willow, or something more, something that will need to be tapped into for it to work again?

You will be more interested in what happens just before.

During Willow's attempt at a resouling, will we have Free-Range Angelus or Prisoner Angelus? Has Evil Analyst Angelus ever taken Willow on? Does he know about her recent past?

People talk...and when you try to destroy the world...well that's hard to keep secret.

I'd like to find out just how much of each show's current apocalypse the other group has been aware of. Did Buffy see the all-day vamp buffet in LA as just an attempt to divert her from the First? It seems like a big thing for the Chosen Vampire Slayer to ignore!

Buffy consideres LA Angel's turf.

How will Willow react to Dark Wesley and Redeemed Faith? Does she know more about how Faith-as-Buffy treated Tara and Riley? Does she even know about Faith's incarceration?

You know what happens when you point fingers.....;)

Will Will be consistent with what we've seen on Buffy? How powerful will the writers make her in LA?

Yes

Will her LA visit be between BtVS episodes, or will she miss one? Which one?

She won't be gone long.

Is Wolfram and Hart completely gone?

No

Will Lindsay ever return? This might be an interesting time for him.

Some of us can only dream.

Where's Gwen? Will we see her again?

You know what happens when you think about someone a lot and then they phone?

How long before someone catches on to Cordy, and how safe will they be?

Cordy....hmmmm what do you do with a very pregnant, tired character?

Isn't a Faith-and-Wesley series looking more and more like an interesting spin-off? Much moreso than the pilot she's doing!

Yes, they share such good times together....;)

So what would you like to be answered sooner rather than later?

Not much....;)
[> As for question 5... -- Briar Rose, 02:10:19 03/17/03 Mon

I'd like to find out just how much of each show's current apocalypse the other group has been aware of. Did Buffy see the all-day vamp buffet in LA as just an attempt to divert her from the First? It seems like a big thing for the Chosen Vampire Slayer to ignore!


There have been "teaser" links between both shows on what's going on in LA. On Angel there was the phone call to "Dawn" asking if "her sister" was home, there was also a mention by Wesley of 'needing a Slayer... that wasn't busy' (except not exactly that as an actual qoute) and that's why they chose springing Faith over contacting Buffy.

Then on BtVS between "Cw/DP" and "Storyteller" there was one mention of "the sun will continue to come up in the morning... Except in LA lately..." and another general mention on the news when Dawn was watching it in the background, I seem to remember it was while Andrew was trying to explain why he had pig's blood. There was also another brief tease of something that was definitely related to the sitch in LA. Help me out guys.*S* I KNOW it's there, I just can't think of it and you're all spot on with minutia where I'm terrible with dialog/ep titles! I seem to remember it being Spike saying something about LA was the place to be for his kind and it was right after or just before Buffy was stalking him through the boardwalk....

I have noticed most of them, and I'm sure that a lot of posters have noticed even more than I did.
Grr! Arr! I really hate the Scifi Channel right now! -- Yu Yu Hakusho, 09:40:04 03/14/03 Fri

After tonight, only one more Farscape episode, and from what I have been reading on the internet, it is going to be one hell of a cliffhanger...without an end!!! Agh, this is why I never watched Firefly, because I knew it would be cancelled. No truely originally, well written series can ever survive on tv. The only reason Buffy lasted so long is because the WB and the UPN are fledgling networks trying to make a name for themselves.

And you know, to add insult to injury, have seen the new lineup of shows coming to the network? Scare Tactics (oh boy, yet another reality show about people being made fools of. Looks to be a meanspirited rip off of the Jamie Kennedy experiment); Tremors, a B (or maybe C) movie series being made into a weekly tv series (Hey Scifi, making a B movie into a series only works if the premise is interesting enough or its got a cult following, and unless I am mistaken, Tremors has neither). Maybe if Scifi would stop making crappy shows (Black Scorpin anyone?) they could afford to keep their greatest show on the air.

Okay, I feel better now. Thanks for letting me rant. I suppose in the end, it all comes down to the viewers. We are so busy these days with our lives and other distractions, that no one wants a story arc series anymore where you have to follow the show regularlly in order to understand what is going on. Maybe we are doomed to reality shows and sitcoms where there is no character growth and development and even after a year you can pick up a show again and not miss a beat.

*sigh* I think I will go read a book
[> Re: Grr! Arr! I really hate the Scifi Channel right now! -- Rob, 09:42:21 03/14/03 Fri

On the positive side, the Henson company said they are very committed to completing the story in some form, whether it be a miniseries, a TV movie, or a movie to be released in theatres. So hopefully some day soon the upcoming (from what I hear, killer) cliffhanger will be resolved.

Rob
[> Re: Grr! Arr! I really hate the Scifi Channel right now! -- Silky, 10:09:05 03/14/03 Fri

I've been mad at them since last summer when I heard they were cancelling Farscape.

I agree that they are wasting their money on those other shows and SciFi original movies. Are the effects on Tremors that much cheaper than those on Farscape. I'll never know, cause I'll NEVER watch Tremors. SciFi is off my radar - and my cable bill - as soon as Farscape ends. More jerks in suits...just like Fox. We can hope that the UPN and WB people are smarter.
[> Re: Scifi Channel -- Robert, 12:43:13 03/14/03 Fri

>>> After tonight, only one more Farscape episode, and from what I have been reading on the internet, it is going to be one hell of a cliffhanger...without an end!!!

I don't know the status, but several months ago, I had read on scifi.com that they were engaged in discussions to complete the cliffhanger with a movie or mini-series. Does anyone know the current status?

>>> Agh, this is why I never watched Firefly, because I knew it would be cancelled.

On the other hand, if too many others thought as you do, then this may have been what ultimately killed Firefly.
[> [> True, but still... -- Yu Yu Hakusho, 13:33:40 03/14/03 Fri

I have been burned far too many times by the Fox network to get involved with another scifi series with them. Harsh Realm got cancelled before it had a chance to develop, and they basically killed the great Brimstone by sticking it on Friday and not promoting it enough.

I just don't have much faith in them when it comes to science fiction series. I do watch John Doe, but I believe that the only reason it has stayed alive this long is because Pretender fans like me have latched on to it
[> [> [> I watch John Doe, and have no idea what 'The Pretender' is. -- Finn Mac Cool, 20:59:16 03/18/03 Tue

[> I second that emotion! -- WickedBuffy ::no more Aeryn? arghhhhhh::, 13:34:55 03/14/03 Fri

I don't wont to wait years for a movie to clean up the ending, though. :/ And if they pull what happened on Six Feet Under this season, ARGHHHHH.

Then again, the promos for "Children of Dune" look pretty exciting!


Why doesn't Ted Turner start a new network made up of all the great shows that were stupidly cnacelled?
[> aeryn is a hero but -- MsGiles, not spoiling last ep, only stuff before, 01:40:22 03/17/03 Mon

But look what they put her through! They create this really strong female character, one of the strongest I've ever come across. OK she's a kind of female Riley really, I know. But so uncompromising, consistent in her soldier persona.

But then they get her pregnant, and she starts wearing her hair loose and looking more girly. More recently put her in this eew! gynaecological type restraint chair, legs apart, make her helpless, vulnerable, pierced by probes and restraining spikes, needing to be rescued.

Am I being unreasonable in asking, when did Crichton last face such a sustained attack on his sexuality?

I feel slightly betrayed in my love for Aeryns character, in this last series
[> [> Re: aeryn is a hero but -- WickedBuffy ::confused::, 21:46:32 03/17/03 Mon

Why do you feel betrayed by Aeryn if it's Crichton who got off easy? At least her character changed/developed alot.

I wonder if Ben Browder has more "pull" around the set than Claudia. His character seems even more selfcentered than Regil (sp)

but nooooooooooooo not a female RIley! ===:O
[> [> [> no, sorry, not betrayed by her -- MsGiles, 06:04:18 03/18/03 Tue

but by the writers, or Jim Henson Co, or whoever felt the need to take things down this route. Can't help but suspect they found her too threatening, or thought viewers might. I think Claudia has done well with keeping her credible and keeping respect for the character, in spite of this.

Is it pressure from Ben? Could be, Crichton is a pretty conventional male hero really. There's always kudos/power attached to being a lead character. Actors in this position are often jealous of it (I remember the old Shatner/Nimoy arguments when Spock suddenly got more popular than Kirk on ST). I could see this influencing the 'Aeryn victim' storyline. They never put Spock in one of those legs-in-the-air chairs though!

I suppose if a similar conflict were to arise on Buffy it would be between Sarah Gellar and James Marsters, but I don't seem to be picking up ego issues there in the same way. (though she's had Spike in handcuffs ; )
[> [> Re: aeryn is a hero but -- Sofdog, 12:41:53 03/18/03 Tue

"Am I being unreasonable in asking, when did Crichton last face such a sustained attack on his sexuality?"


When Grayza made him her love slave at the beginning of the season.
[> [> Re: aeryn is a hero but -- Miss Edith, 00:42:15 03/19/03 Wed

John was tortured in Nerve and The Hidden Memory and Aeryn came to his rescue. John also confronts Graza for raping him. Many fans argued that a man could not be raped but John explicitly calls it that.

And Aeryn wore her hair loose in season 1 as well. I wouldn't say she has become girly simply because she is forming a bond with her baby. Her character is developing and becoming more in touch with her emotions. She can still kick ass. As recently as the episode Twice Shy she smacks John in the face, he says "You don't scare me missy" and after getting a look from Aeryn he backs up a pace admitting she scares him a little. She has become softer, but I don't see that as a bad thing. John has been tortured far more than any female character, remember season 2 when Scorpuis messed around with his brain so much that John was left an insane gibbering wreck at the end of the season begging for someone to kill him. All the characters have their weaker moments.
[> [> [> Re: aeryn is a hero but -- Sofdog, 06:26:52 03/19/03 Wed

Actually at the NYC Farscape con over Thanksgiving Claudia Black explained that Aeryn was wearing hairpieces this season to highlight that she'd been through some stuff while off on her own. They were trying to make her look edgier ('cause lord knows that girl's got fabulous hair).

It annoyed me so much that she kept her hair skimmed back throughout Season 3. It was only down for one or two episodes. I love her hair.
[> [> [> [> Re: aeryn is a hero but -- Miss Edith, 06:40:55 03/19/03 Wed

I heard that constantly wearing her hair pulled back in season 3 was doing her hair no favours so she was keen for a change in style anyway. And I love her hair too.
[> [> good points -- MsGiles, 02:07:28 03/19/03 Wed

Firstly my carping only comes from this series. John has been through as many mindfucks as anyone could wish for (no! when i say that i don't mean I hate him! I like him. I think he's been a good character, a great innocent in the face of huge stresses and dilemmas.)

Secondly I take your point about Grayza's attack on him. Now she's so reduced in stature, that I'd forgotten how powerful she was at the start of the series, taking over from Scorpius. Certainly she took Crichton's body out of his control, by controlling his mind, and used this to humiliate him. I still feel this was slightly different .

It could be that I'm suffering from getting-too-attached-to-a-character-and-wanting-them-to-be-what-I-want-them-to-be-and-not-what-the-writers-intended syndrome. Maybe I want Aeryn to be Buffy-with-a-blaster. I've certainly liked Aeryn and Crichton's relationship much better when she's been rescuing him!
[> [> [> Re: good points -- Miss Edith, 04:34:00 03/19/03 Wed

John was brainwashed almost into being attracted to Graza. We see him afterwards hugging himself by the cliff and behaving very much as if he had been raped. In We're So Screwed like I said he confronts Graza when she is cracking up. Says something about do you feel screwed, raped well welcome to the universe. In comparision Aeryn has never been sexually violated as far as I'm aware. Indeed in season 2 Aeryn was the one who turned her lover over for torture in order to get a promotion. We see Aeryn can still handle herself in a fight. In the episodes this season set on earth it was Aeryn and D'Argo who handled the policeman.

I would say Aeryn could very much be seen as Buffy with a blaster. Even Buffy has had her moments of weakness. In ITW Buffy discovers Riley's cheating, he then delivers an ultimation and she runs after him. In SR during the AR Buffy cries and begs for Spike to stop and the attack is a very prolonged one. I would not say Aeryn was ever made into a victim in the same way. In Prayer she is brave under torture, making up lies to throw her interrogaters off. Aeryn is still a tough warrior, but we see her moments of weakness and vunerability more. This humanises her character for me and opens her up more. I couldn't relate to her if she was still the soldier who responds to John with "Compassion. What is compassion?" Her growth has fascinated me, and I would say she is still a strong female character to relate to. I agree though that there is something touching about Aeryn rescuing John. I think ultimately that has always been the more common scenerio. In season 2 at the end of the season when John is being driven mad with his hullacinations of Scorpuis Aeryn is the strong one begging him to fight. There are many other examples I can't think of right now.
[> [> [> [> more aeryn (slight spoilers FS) -- MsGiles, 02:30:51 03/21/03 Fri

Thanks for replying. It's given me a chance to think more about what started as a bit of a 'gut reaction' observation. I still don't have a clear thesis, so it's more rambly thought.

After I last posted, i started thinking about Buffy vs Aeryn, as opposed to Buffy vs Crichton. Certainly Buffy's been attacked sexually and Aeryn hasn't, as far as I can remember (unless you count attempts to rip out her baby as sexual abuse). But on reflection, I don't think the attacks were what triggered my 'betrayed' f eeling. After all everyone in the Farscapeverse seems to come under the most acute and intimate mental and physical attack most of the time. If I didn't take this on board, I wouldn't be watching still!

No, it's a deeper, more insidious niggle. I think I'm afraid for Aeryn because she isn't the star of the show.

I suddenly got a similar collywobble about Anya, in Hells Bells. Not, of course, that she isn't the star, but that her tribulations were actually a mechanism for looking at Xander. Instead of going with the show, I realised I'd got a personal fondness for Anya, and had a sense of resentment towards the writers! Spike neatly encapsulated the feeling in Normal Again, when he opined to Xander how neatly his chip/obsession/sexslaverole(oops) fitted with the whole reality being Buffycentric in the ultimate sense: created in Buffy's mind, in a story where Buffy was the hero.

In the Bufverse, however, the emphasis shifts around. The different characters may be different aspects of Buffy, but they also occupy their own spotlights at different times. They also have in FS up to now. All of the crew of Moya have a background, family, conflicts and aspirations that take the spotlight at different times. Even the villains (perhaps mainly Scorpius) have complex and plot-driving histories.

John started as a classic All American Boy innocent, plunged in a unverse where all his assumptiions and his whole being would be challenged. Once FS got past its initial 'stranger in a strange land' premise, something else had to be found to drive it - hence the wormhole knowledge implanted in John's head. Now he wasn't just a wanderer, but a quarry. He wasn't paranoid, they really were after him. He was like Dawn - a key. The frenetic chasing has reminded me of Buffy s5.

In line with this, John has been, I think, more of a focus recently, and other characters, including Aeryn, have been more part of his story, and him less part of theirs. The whole going-back-to-Earth thing also bears this out.

That's not to say I haven't enjoyed it, I have, and I am really sorry that the story is not continuing. I would love to see Aeryn become a wife and mother, and keep her iconic independant aura and fighting qualities. I'm sure the character could carry it, if the writing was there. I'm just a tiny bit scared of copout cliche creeping in.
Breaking the Law: 7:9 and 4:8 (SPOILERS for subsequent eps not broadcast on Sky) -- KdS, 10:19:19 03/14/03 Fri

Again, some moderate spoilers for eps not yet broadcast in the UK. Unspoiled UK viewers be warned.

It's obvious, but I can't resist it.

The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers

Once again, the parallels between a BtVS ep and the numerically previous AtS ep are too obvious to ignore. At the time I first heard about the contents of Habeus Corpses, I suspected that we were seeing an all-out Order-Chaos confrontation. The subsequent activities of the Beast make that more questionable. However, there's a clear symbolic connection in the near-simultaneous destruction of two of the key forces of Order in the Buffyverse - the Watchers' Council (theoretically good, but at best morally ambiguous in its recent form) and Wolfram & Hart (unambiguously evil). The detonation of the WC just at the point where they had decided to take action on their own part sets the final seal on their portrayal as a group who had become fatally cut off from all they claimed to represent, a distance summed up by Quentin's unforgivable reference to a twenty-two-year-old woman who had survived the Slayer lifestyle for seven years as "the girl". The human element of Wolfram & Hart, meanwhile (whether the non-human element is permanently taken off the board remains to be seen), discovered just how uncontrollable the forces they thought they were running really were. Lilah's fate sums up the wages of sin in the Buffyverse - stripped of her minions who were motivated by fear, she's left wounded, desperate and utterly alone in a sewer. One wonders if a deliberate reference was made to the fate of the similarly charming, corrupting and amoral Harry Lime.

Never Leave Me was one of the best balanced BtVS episode for a long time. The horror of Spike's predicament was expertly balanced with the more humorous scenes involving Andrew. Andrew's personality was summed up in his opening scene with "Warren" - while the real Warren at least knew that villainy required actual evil, Andrew just wants to walk around in his leather coat feeling cool. Given my interpretation of the continuing symbolism of the rapidly-depleted Troika, I prefer to think he was imitating Spike, although really it might have been Neo or maybe King Mob (although I suspect Andrew would find the Invisibles too confusing). My suspicions about ME's opinion of Star Wars were also backed up by the FE's explicit comparison of itself to Obi-Wan Kenobi. Really, Andrew should be more suspicious. Why, for example, can't Jonathan and Warren manifest at the same time? It also seemed to me that Andrew was played in a more effeminate manner than ever before in the butcher's shop scene. The subsequent confrontation with Willow was the only scene in the ep that struck me as weak - AH made it far too obvious that WIllow was consciously acting in her Dark Avenger speech. By contrast, Xander and Anya's NYPD Blue routine was superlative.

JM and SMG were excellent, of course. The infamous "I raped little girls to death" speech was less annoying than I expected, or maybe I just had the reaction when I first read about it on the board. JM did it in a really matter-of-fatc, emotionally exhausted manner and made it far more convincing than anything showier. I personally suspect that his accusation to Buffy of seeking pain from men, and her rejection of hate as a power source, was meant to be the final underlining of how much Spike misread her and projected his own psyche on her in S5-6, though I'm willing to accept that some will disagree.

Once more, SMG was the most effective performer as the FE. More please. The Harbingers' eyes seem different to Amends - in that ep they were blank skin covered with tattoos, here they seem more scarred. They also seem to be much better fighters than in Amends, though it's possible that we saw a priestly caste in that ep and now we're seeing the warrior caste. When I first saw Willow's Celtic-style cross pendant I was a little confused, given her status as a Jew turned witch, but with a multiple-personality vamp in the house it was probably precautionary rather than a statement of allegiance.

Much of the ad breaks in Habeus Corpses was taken up by a debate over Cordy's Connor-related motivations, which I'll leave the comments on to Rah and yab, who have more obvious credentials for the interpretation of female sexual motivation ;->. However, the juxtaposition of Cordy's look of utter horror with Connor's mingled bliss, gratitude and self-satisfaction was heartbreaking. One does wonder how closely the Buffy/Angel(us) parallels will be drawn. Angel's reactions were very nice - the smashing noises as he left the roof, the almost Angelus-like little digs for most of the ep, leaving Cordy wondering how much he knew, and the final Deep Down-esque expulsion.

Cordy and Connor's stillborn relationship was nicely paralleled with what seems to be the end of Wes and Lilah's bizarre attachment. Whatever Lilah may imply, however, there is a very wide range of shades of grey. The Wes/Fred/Gunn triangle continues to amuse, although if Wes wanted to get closer to the white end of the spectrum, he really should have shown a little less enthusiasm for the idea of leaving Gunn to sacrifice himself for him and Fred ;-)

I'll say it again, I like the Beast. He isn't mindless - there's a real intelligence there, which Kulich does a marvellous job of communicating through that very heavy make-up. He's just committed to his to-do list, and doesn't see the point of unneccessary conversation. It might get wearing after a while, but he's a nice contrast to all the mouthy villains we've had from ME in the last seven years. I'd also like to suggest an interpretation in the light of future events of his puzzling surgery on Lilah - he mistook her, obviously in a position of authority, for Meritet and was rummaging around inside her for her token.

And I'll probably be the only person mourning Gavin, one of the most unjustly dismissed characters in AtS. I loved his forlorn attempt to make some guyish connection with the Beast as he prepared to kill him.

Finally, why are the people at Sanctuary still bothering to continue the site if they hate the series that much? I'm all for fan honesty and criticism if you think an episode was bad, but since they've seemed to hate every ep since Connor came back from Quortoth, one wonders why they don't hand the concern over to someone else.
[> Re: Breaking the Law: 7:9 and 4:8 (SPOILERS for subsequent eps not broadcast on Sky) -- Rahael, 10:42:26 03/14/03 Fri

I personally suspect that his accusation to Buffy of seeking pain from men, and her rejection of hate as a power source, was meant to be the final underlining of how much Spike misread her and projected his own psyche on her in S5-6, though I'm willing to accept that some will disagree.

I would once have agreed with you, but I think we are meant to see that now that Spike has a soul, ironically he has a true understanding of pain, or that's my reading anyway.

Coupled this with Buffy's revealing conversation with Holden, where Holden convincingly posits that Buffy chooses her men carefully, so they'll never be able to give her what she really wants. They'll always fall short, always fail so she can keep on the dynamic where her father fails her and her mother.

Then, there's the startling juxtoposition of Buffy/Spike's conversation in her bedroom where she, in a very maternal image, feeds him blood (mother's blood is red today), and Spike tells her that falling in love with her caused him greater pain than ever before, that she used him. Buffy (SMG was very good, I thought) said "you only figured this out now?, in a way which conveyed sorrow, and pain for the both of them.

When Spike is captured by the First Evil, he loses the chains of Buffy's basement (the chains of love? dark love?) and is instead bound up by the First Evil who takes on first his image, and then Buffy's in the crucial blood dripping scene. Just as if all the blood that the real Buffy had fed him in her room was now being drained away. And then Spike gets to feel lots more pain, and he's used by the FE as Buffy. For me, that gave me shivers, as if it were a literal enactment of last season. But remember, its not only Buffy's guise the FE takes on, but Spike himself. So last season he was just as responsible for the pain he felt in the relationship.

But I also thought, that if Spike had changed (as Buffy herself told us, and him) so has Buffy. Everything that Spike accused her once of doing to him is no longer true. Buffy's changed as well. She's no longer using him. She's no longer punishing herself.

The pain of love theme is also echoed in Xander's really affecting speech to Andrew about a man who woke up one day to find that the girl who he had hurt had taken his heart away and only left darkness. That heart theme again.

Now to Angel - nope, not resurrecting that contentious debate again! But I just had a thought this morning. Has anyone commented on how close Lilah's name is to Lilith? Is this significant?
[> Re: Breaking the Law: 7:9 and 4:8 (SPOILERS for subsequent eps not broadcast on Sky) -- yabyumpan, 14:39:58 03/14/03 Fri

Never Leave Me
A good, well balenced ep. I haven't really got anything to add to KdS's and Rah's comments, I did expect the 'real' Vampire at the end to be bigger and scarier(maybe it's just that THe Beast looks scarier), I take it that we'll be seeing it in action so I'm sure I'll revise my opinion.

Habeus Corpses
I really liked this episode. I really got the feeling of defeat when the gang got back to the hotel at the begining. Liked the Wes/Lilah scenes at W&H and in the sewers, for the first time I got a sense of Lilah vunerability, I wonder who Wesley's 'inside contact' was, Gavin? Speaking of Gavin, while I didn't really shed a tear at his demise, I did feel sorry for him in Lilah's office. As I'm fresh from re-watching S3, it's really a case of 'how the mighty (and arrogant)have fallen'.

I'd also like to suggest an interpretation in the light of future events of his puzzling surgery on Lilah - he mistook her, obviously in a position of authority, for Meritet and was rummaging around inside her for her token

Good call, although The Beast seemed to be sucking energy out of The White Room Girl, I didn't notice any injury to her abdomen (although maybe that would have been a bit much for even ME to show).

although if Wes wanted to get closer to the white end of the spectrum, he really should have shown a little less enthusiasm for the idea of leaving Gunn to sacrifice himself for him and Fred ;-)

In defence of Wesley (shock, horror!), Gunn could also have shown a little less enthusiasm for killing Wes should he become a Zombie ;-)

Liked the scenes of the FG inside W&H looking for Connor, nicely shot and very atmospheric. Loved the Angel/Connor reunion and 'Zombies' talk, Connor seemed to be gently teasing his old man as opposed to really baiting him. I think there's hope for there two 'Strangers in a strange land' yet. Really liked the way DB played his final words to Cordy. I got the feeling that all the anger and pain that had been played out thoughout the episode just came together in that moment as complete contempt. Far more wounding than out and out rage.

Speaking of Cordy and Connor:

Much of the ad breaks in Habeus Corpses was taken up by a debate over Cordy's Connor-related motivations, which I'll leave the comments on to Rah and yab,

I posted about this a number of times after RoF last week so I don't really want to repeat myself but I will add some stuff. Part of the reason that I want the C/C sex to have been the real Cordy, apart my my sympathy towards her, is that if all we've been seeing since she got back this season has been 'evil Cordy' then I can't see much scope for character growth. The rest of the gang (except Lorne at the moment), have all acted in questionable ways this year; if it turns out that she's not responsible for anything that's happened this year then we'll be back to 'St Cordy' (I hate that term but that is how people see her) and also Victim Cordy. While it's obvious that it's not the 'real' Cordy we're seeing now, or at least, not a Cordy who's fully in control and so we will see 'Victim Cordy', I'd like to see repercussions for her when all this is over other than 'Well none of it wasn't really her so all is forgiven', the 'get out of jail free' card.

As for the actual C/C sex, I know many (most) people were totally 'icked' by it and that's part of the reason that they think that it wasn't really her or hope it wasn't really her, but from an objective 'moral' view point, is it really so much worse than Fred wanting to kill Sidiel(sp?) and Gunn actually doing it or Wesley sleeping with Lilah, a woman who has worked for the past 3 years to bring down Angel/AI and was quite prepared to dissect a live baby (Connor)? I know that people love the W/L chemistry and this really isn't another bash at Wes (honest), but from a 'moral' viewpoint, how is two consenting adults having 'comfort sex' in the face of inpending doom (even with all the 'Oedipal' connatations), worse than someone having sex with another person knowing that the person they are sleeping with is directly and indirectly responsable for suffering, manipulation to infanticide (Angel/Connor/spiked blood) and cold blooded murder (Linwood).(again, not bashing W/L, just trying to look at it from an objective perspective)

I know that the reaction to C/C sex is mainly a 'gut' reaction but from an objective 'moral' perpective, is Cordy's 'sin' really worse than Fred, Gunn and Wesley's? I would say no but people don't have a desire to any of those three 'possesed' and so not culpable.
[> [> I don't think... -- KdS, 14:59:48 03/14/03 Fri

I don't get any over-the-top moral condemnation of Cordelia or any suggestion that having sex with Connor was comparable to anything you've suggested. I think people are just saying that they felt it was out of character.
[> Damn, can't believe I forgot to post this -- KdS, 14:54:31 03/14/03 Fri

Personal epitaph for the WC and W&H. And remember, I like to think of myself as neutral concerning the WC!

And they're coming with their butane they're coming with their signs
From the black and white divisions the bloody ware and their front lines
They fan the flames of degradation to a mariachi band
Cos the crime's always committed using someone else's hand

We are Your morphine vision we are your sleepless nights
We are your catechism we are your final rights
We've got your weakness pegged each break and every bend
You throw a tragedy we'll always attend
The resurrection men

Thea Gilmore
Tim Minear on rumors of doom and the future of Angel (from 'An Angel's Soul' posting board) -- cjl, 11:17:15 03/14/03 Fri

Date Posted: 11:57:54 03/14/03 Fri

"Calm down already.

We haven't been picked up yet. Haven't been cancelled either. Joss, Greenie, Jeff Bell and me'uns have worked out where the show's going next season and it's exciting. The ratings *have* bumped up, more to the point the desired demographics have spiked a bit, particularly on this last episode. USA Today and other publications are singing our praises. "Angel" has proven itself a strong and consistent performer for the network. It works about the same on any night theym toss us, works about the same whether we're after a new episode of another show or a repeat. There are a lot of good reasons for the network to order us for a fifth year. We're hoping they will. Personally, given where we want to take the show, I think creatively "Angel" could go on for at least two more years -- maybe more."
[> Thank you! I was on a real downer about this -- Rahael, 11:19:17 03/14/03 Fri

[> Can't wait to see Angelus visit Dawsons Creek. -- WickedBuffy, 13:29:07 03/14/03 Fri

[> [> I'd like that. -- HonorH, 20:39:00 03/14/03 Fri

Love to see Ol' Leather Pants make snacks out of all those Angsty Teens. "You think your life sucks? Wait'll you get a load of me . . ."
Willow -- deacon, 11:20:22 03/14/03 Fri

I would like to talk about some more in dept issues than this. I have several essays on file but the do not compare to the majority of the philosphical ideas posted on this website, I will keep working on them and in time I will post them.
For now I will briefly talk about willow. Willow is my favorite character on the show. She has developed and has gone through a drastic change in her personallity while still retaining her adorable characterists that make us fall in love with her in the first season. Alyson Hannigan is a fantastic actor she can show true emotions with slight hummor. And when she cry's she make you feel the emotion like no one else can.
If BtVS is cancelled this season, I would like to see Willow goes to L.A. I will be content as start watching Ats with a passion. She is making a guest appeace in a up coming eposide and I think the the chemistry between Willow and AI will work. A few years ago one might think that willow would not fit in with the dark motif of Ats. But over time, especially since last season the character has become more serious and intence.

One more comment is that I am unsure about willow relationship with Kenedy. I want to see willow happy and it is nice for her to move on. But Kenedy is so different from willow and is even mean at times. She is completly different from Tara (beloved Tara) and even Oz and Xander.

I would like to post a topic for discussion: Tara as a reincarnation of the first
[> Future spoilers in above post -- Liv, 12:09:28 03/14/03 Fri

[> i agree with every word you said -- 110v3w1110w, 21:10:07 03/14/03 Fri

Do you think Fox will kill Eliza's show this fall? -- Yu Yu Hakusho, 13:16:56 03/14/03 Fri

As I said in my post bashing the Scif Channel a few posts down, I didn't watch Firefly mainly because I knew fox would cancel it. Science fiction shows just don't last on that network, with the exception of X-Files, Dark Angel and John Doe. X-files, though, only lasted because when it premired, the network was still trying to make a name for itself, and actually allowed the show to develop (something it hasn't done since). Dark Angel lasted 2 season mainly because James Cameron was attached to it. And John Doe, I am convinced, is only surviving there because its riding on the coat tails of the Pretender, and already had a fan base to build on (at least that is why I started watching it). Every other show has either been killed within a few episodes (Harsh Realm)or by midseason (the late great Brimstone, and Firefly).

Now, I don't know much about Eliza's new series, but I have heard it has some scifi or fantasy elements. With this in mind, I am wondering if this show even has a shot of lasting one season. In fact, I wonder if any actors give pause to doing a scifi show, once they find its going to be on FOX. Me, I'd wonder if it was worth getting involved with the project
[> Re: Do you think Fox will kill Eliza's show this fall? -- botitas, 14:33:19 03/14/03 Fri

It's hard to say what Fox may do because of the current situation among the production companies. What I mean is that although BtVs and AtS are on UPN and the WB, both series are actually produced by Fox. So just because Twenty Century Fox produces a series, it does not mean that the series will be on the Fox. However, Fox has the right to the reruns, and can either run them on one of their networks like BtVS on FX or sell them. Also while researching who exactly produces BtVS and AtS, I ran across the website for the AtS DVD. It's not quite running at 100%, but it kinda cool anyway. It's at www.foxhome.com/angel/
[> Not if they make it a cartoon or a 'reality show'. -- WickedBuffy, 15:23:46 03/14/03 Fri

[> [> question: what is Eliza's show -- deacon, 17:37:27 03/14/03 Fri

I heard the show mentioned a few time. But I have not heard exactly what the show is about, If someone can be so kind to fill me in I would appreciate it.
[> [> [> Re: question: what is Eliza's show -- Quentin Collins, 18:44:08 03/14/03 Fri

I don't have a description ready to hand, but when I heard it described, it sounded like a very derivative high concept show. It sort of sounded a bit like "Haunted" somehow crossed with "Seven Days." In short, it is the kind of unoriginal sci/fi crap that Fox always tries to make work but never does. In the unlikely event that it gets picked up, I would assume that its run will be even shorter than Firefly's was. It can join "Dark Angel," "Space," "Harsh Realm," "The Lone Gunmen," and that show where the D.J. from "Northern Exposure" played the alien in sci fi cancellation hell.
[> [> [> [> Which begs the question... -- Yu Yu Hakusho, 05:17:01 03/15/03 Sat

why would any actor get involved with a sci-fi/fantasy show on Fox? I mean, looking at the network's track record, I would try to find a job somewhere else. As I said before, Dark Angel only lasted as long as it did because James Cameron was involved, and John Doe only got a season pickup because it aleady had a fan base to build off of (let's face it, this is basically Jarod without the nomadic lifestyle)
[> [> [> Re: question: what is Eliza's show -- Alison, 20:06:52 03/14/03 Fri

I THINK..but am not sure, thats its about a girl who speaks to dead people in a morgue, and with the info they give her, gets to correct the past..or something. Correct me, anyone...
[> [> [> [> Our prayers have been answered, then. -- WickedBuffy };>, 21:39:12 03/14/03 Fri

That's GREAT!

Because then she could go talk to a dead network executive, hear about the stupid cancellations they made... and go back to the past to have the series renewed!!

This could work in our favor.
[> [> [> [> [> or this could work for us another way -- anom, 22:01:23 03/17/03 Mon

If the new series is cancelled early, ED will be available for a new Slayer series that much sooner! Who says it has to start as soon as "Buffy" ends? "Angel" will (I hope!) be around meantime to give us our Jossverse fix & provide continuity into the new show. (Does it work that way? Would it be any easier to sell another Slayer series if a related show is still on the air?)
[> [> [> Re: question: what is Eliza's show -- Silky, 05:29:06 03/15/03 Sat

From what I've heard, she signed to do a pilot - doesn't mean the show will even get picked up.

Have to admit, I appreciate ED's acting more than ever.
A question about Glory and the Beast (spoilers for intervention and Angel S4) -- Alison, 15:04:42 03/14/03 Fri

I was re-watching Intervention, and noticed that Glory wounding Spike with her finger looks a lot like the Beast wounding Lilah. Since Spike and Lilah have been paralleled before, this doesn't surprise me...each proves their humanity by saving the heroes child. What I'm wondering about is if anyone thinks that Glory aka. the Beast, is somehow related to or being paralled with the Beast on Angel..maybe Dawn is to Glory as Connor is to the Beast? I don't know...any thoughts?
[> Re: A question about Glory and the Beast (spoilers for intervention and Angel S4) -- ZachsMind, 15:58:55 03/14/03 Fri

Buffy = Angel
Dawn = Connor
Willow = Fred
Xander = Wesley/Gunn (depends on the moment)
Cordy = Cordy
Clem = Lorne (better dressed & more useful but still..)


Spike = Lilah? Dark Wesley would be more like it.

Glory = The Beast? I'd compare The Beast of this season's Angel more to the Harbingers of this season's Buffy. We haven't seen this season's equivalent of Glory yet. On either series.

This doesn't work for me. But then, comparing the two like this doesn't really work for me... Maybe it'd be funny to do a tongue in cheek fan fiction where suddenly all the main characters of Buffy & all the main characters of Angel do a Freaky Friday thing simultaneously. Buffy in Angel's body & vice versa. Spike in Wesley's body. Dawn & Connor switcheroo.

...maybe not.
[> [> One suggestion -- Veronica, 16:32:15 03/14/03 Fri

Anya = Early Cordy

This line could have come from either of them:
"Tact is just not saying true stuff. I'll pass"

-V
[> [> [> Well that reminds me of one of my other Buffy theories.. -- ZachsMind, 20:10:22 03/14/03 Fri

Whedon had a story to tell, parts of which were at least in pieces in his mind from the beginning, chunks swirling about in his head seeking coelescence.

Imagine that every concrete part of Buffy in the early seasons was like a piece of a puzzle Whedon was building, only he was making the pieces as he was going along and he didn't really know for certain what the picture was going to look like seven years later. He might have had some solid structure planned for the first year or two on the outside, or he might have had a kinda loose outline for the first year and absolutely no idea beyond that, but he knew there was a tale to tell and he was painting it as he went along, and friends and talented employees came along to help him put the puzzle together, but ultimately it was Whedon's table. It was Whedon's puzzle.

Okay so first he had the four main puzzle pieces. Buffy, Willow, Xander & Giles. This is The Core Four. Anything he added after this was gonna have to fit with these four. So he'd paint in a few bad guys like The Master & his lackeys. Then Joss and friends came up with The Hellmouth, cuz they needed to explain why all the future weirdness was gonna happen in Buffy's world. The Hellmouth let them make the puzzle as big as they wanted, provided he hooked other future baddies and freaks to the Hellmouth in some way.

Then Joss & friends added The X Factor: ANGEL. What a piece. At first it wasn't planned to make the piece very important, but eventually he got so important he needed his own puzzle, cuz he just didn't fit anymore, but they needed something to take his place, and Spike, at first, was the obvious candidate. Spike turned out to fit into the puzzle but in a remarkably different way from Angel. Spike was also an X Factor but not in a way that made him deserve the moniker. He was similar while being different.

This is what I refer to as the Spock/Data Syndrome. In Star Trek The Next Generation, they wanted to create a similar chemistry among the crew that existed in the original series. They effectively took the character of Captain Kirk and split him in two: Jean Luc Picard represented the brinkmanship and diplomacy of Kirk, and Wil Riker represented Kirk's youth and more adventurous tendencies. Data replaced Spock. Alike, but different, as was illustrated when they finally met in the two-part episode "Unification." Other characters in STNG reflect aspects of characters from the original series, but are represented in a remarkably different way. So the audience familiar with the original series would feel a familiar ring to the series but at the same time they'd see something completely new.

MASH did this also. When Colonel Blake left, they replaced him with Colonel Potter who was just as lovable and helpful but in a new and different way. Major Frank Burns was replaced by Major Winchester, who worked as a character in conflict with Hawkeye and his partner. Originally that partner was Trapper John, who was later replaced by BJ Honeycutt. When Radar O'Reilly left the series, Klinger stepped in to do his duties. And on and on and on. Alike, but different.

Joss Whedon often utilized The Spock/Data Syndrome. Repeatedly. He introduced Cordy into the series, at first as a sort of 'normal' villain opposite Buffy. Cordy was in essence the person that Buffy HAD been prior to her Slayer heritage kicking in. However over time the character evolved into one of the first support members of The Core Four. When Angel left in Season three, Cordy went with him. Just as Angel's disappearance left a bit of a void (filled in to a degree by Spike), so too did Cordy's absence leave a hole to fill. The replacement became Anyanka. She's like Cordy, and yet she's nothing like Cordy. Alike, but different. The Spock/Data Syndrome again.

Joss has admitted that he was going to turn Willow dark years ago, but he couldn't quite get the variables to fit together. When Seth Green (OZ) left, he replaced Oz with a new romantic interest: Tara, played by Amber Benson. Now, we've been told that on the outset it was uncertain if Willow would turn gay, but eventually it just became the logical conclusion from a writer's standpoint. Tara became Oz's replacement. Amber Benson has admitted that when she was hired, Joss made it clear he was eventually going to kill her off. It stands to reason, using 20/20 hindsight, that Whedon already planned to turn Willow dark by taking from her the life of someone she loved. That someone was originally going to be Oz. However, Green's premature evac from the series to explore his movie career caused Whedon to stir up his creative juices and find another answer. An answer similar to his original plans, but simultaneously altogether different.

So here's how it works in a nutshell.

You got The Core Four. Buffy, Willow, Xander, and Giles.
You add a new element to that Core Four.
If that element works. Keep it.
If that element doesn't work. Drop it. Start over with a new element.

If a supporting element that works then has to leave, you find yourself with a hole that needs refilling. You need a replacement element. The most obvious case in point: Kendra. She appeared to explain the plot element of Buffy's death. She died at the hands of the Master in season one. So where was the next Slayer? To play true to the rules of the world Whedon had weaved, he had to explain that. So enter Kendra. Then he killed her off. He needed to bring in a new Slayer. Faith filled that void. So how do you stop the trend? In this case, you don't kill off Faith. You leave her in jail. In a state of limbo. No third dead Slayer, no need to bring in a fourth. However, that only seemed temporary. Now there's a whole bunch of potential Slayers waiting for Faith to kick the bucket. Only time will tell how that works out. It's become a cornerstone of season seven.

The most obvious exception to this pattern is GILES. He was one of The Core Four since the very beginning. Yet in season six he left the stage, and like Faith, his character was in a state of limbo. He was in England doing only Whedon knows what. So since he was absent but not forgotten, Whedon didn't need to fill that void. Instead, Marti Noxon and the writers of season six used that void to create all new tension. How do the children behave when the only parental unit is gone? Was it "while the cat's away the mouse will play"? Not exactly. The result turned out to be one of the most powerful statements of the entire series. Parental guidance can be annoying, but without it there's also no structure. There's not a wiser voice to bounce ideas around with, and mistakes happen. The pupils of the absent teacher have to learn things themselves, and sometimes the lessons learn can be terrible ones.

So in the case of Giles, the absent void ended up making even more conflict than had they just replaced his character as Whedon has done in the past with Cordy/Anya, Oz/Tara, or even Angel/Spike. Giles left. Anya ironically picked up his place in some areas. She had first hand experience with a lot of stuff that Giles had read about. So when the writers needed someone to explain to the (now) Core Three, Anya would open her mouth. Willow stepped in occasionally in other ways. Particularly with game plans and standing as Buffy's most direct confidante & counsel. Even Xander stood in for Giles from a writing perspective, by saying the right thing at the right time (the yellow crayon speech for example) or perhaps just offering silence and a shoulder to cry on. They're big shoes to fill though. Without Giles in the picture, things haven't been all that right.

Uhm... what was my point again?
[> [> [> [> Dunno, but I like it. -- HonorH, 20:37:03 03/14/03 Fri

I tend to think along the same lines: the Core Four are the only truly irreplaceable parts of the story. Everyone else has come and gone, but Buffy, Xander, Willow, and Giles (even though he's been a half-timer these last two seasons) are the constants, the true family unit. Suppose that's why the thought of romantically 'shipping any two of them together feels all squicky to me: it's emotional/spiritual incest, from my pov.

Do I have a point? Would either of us recognize a point if it somehow found us? I like to stay away from points; they hurt.
[> [> Re: A question about Glory and the Beast (spoilers for intervention and Angel S4) -- Alison, 20:10:44 03/14/03 Fri

I can't agree with all your character parallels...but the great thing about comparisons between AtS and BtVS is how many varations there are. Buffy can be Angel, or Wesley, or Connor...Spike can be Lilah, or Wesley, or Angel...
but what I really meant, and its my fault that I phrased it poorly, was do you think that the Glory/Beast thing is a conicidence, or this season is paralleling Buffy S5?...I'm just interested in some theories.
Souls and loopholes (spoilers up to the promo for Orpheus) -- Maxwell, 15:47:05 03/14/03 Fri

There was a fair amount of discussion going around during the first season of Angel and even in the third season of Buffy about the nature of Angel's curse. The initial question went something like this - "when Willow gave Angel back his soul did she include the caveat about losing that soul"? I believe that the prevailing opinion was that although Willow would have no reason to include this loophole, she did not have the power or knowledge to alter the curse. That was then. This is now. Willow pretty much has the power to do whatever she wants to do (or whatever ME wants her to do)
The question I have is will ME address this issue this time round?
Could Willow restore Angels soul in such a way that he needn't worry about losing it the next time he "gets a happy"?
Would that make Angel a less interesting character without this hanging over his head all the time, or would it open up more interesting possibilities for deeper relationships?
My fear is that they will just give him back his soul just like they did before without even thinking about it and waste this opportunity to re-examine the nature of Angel and his curse.
[> Title Spoilers in Above Post (and Subject heading for that matter) -- Sergio, 23:17:18 03/14/03 Fri

Has Angel/us become more power than Faith? (no spoilers) -- zombie123, 16:47:54 03/14/03 Fri

Angel has been fighting demons while Faith is in jail. She probably has kept in shape but the only real through slaying. When he fought the Beast at that point, he nearly hurt it. Faith got the crap kicked out of her. Also Angelus is so damn Evil, ruthless, and smart too.
[> Re: Has Angel/us become more power than Faith? (slight spoilers Calvery))) -- WickedBuffy, 17:04:30 03/14/03 Fri

Good question.

They've both been cooped up for awhile. Faith in prison and Angelus in Angel. I think Faith is abit rusty and maybe disoriented - but she's also had time to hone her "inner" skills - something she didn't seem to care about so much before.

I think she can outsmart him. And outfight him that way.
[> [> Re: Has Angel/us become more power than Faith? (slight spoilers Calvery))) -- Majin Gojira, 17:52:13 03/14/03 Fri

It is far more likely that Faith was still injured from the Beast's beating. It would make sense considering the amount of damage she sustained (and her kick-ass moves before-hand).
[> The real problem... -- Rook, 18:02:44 03/14/03 Fri

Is that Faith isn't "in the game" (As she put it to Angel, and Wes put it to her). She's holding back, not going all out. It's the point Wes was trying to make, and IMO he's right. In her effort to rid herself of her inner darkness, she's given up some of her will to win.
[> [> . . . and furthermore . . . (spoilerish) -- CrookedMind, 22:43:15 03/14/03 Fri

. . . Angelus (assuming this is Angelus and not Angel play-acting) is using Angel against Faith in every respect. Note that he's fighting her with "Angel's" face on rather than vamped . . . psychologically he's muzzling Faith by making her hurt "Angel". He doesn't go into "vamp mode" until the very end with Faith in hand . . .
[> [> cm, could you specify what the spoilers are for? any past 'release'? -- anom, still being *really* careful, 21:07:34 03/16/03 Sun

Just re-watched Harry Groener's ST:TNG ep (yes, this is on topic) -- HonorH, 22:27:17 03/14/03 Fri

First, let me say: what a remarkable actor he was, even back then! "Tin Man" has always been one of my favorite episodes of TNG, right from the first time I saw it, and Harry Groener as Tam Elbrun was one of the main reasons.

Second, I noticed an odd parallel: the episode "Tin Man" is about connecting, about two completely disparate, yet equally lonely, beings who find a connection, and healing through that connection. The beings are Tam Elbrun, a supertalented telepath who literally cannot ever be alone, and Tin Man, an enormous space-borne creature who may be the only one of his kind, and who has been alone for perhaps millennia. When they come together, Tin Man blocks out the mental noise Tam has always been subjected to, and Tam provides Tin Man with the companionship he seeks. At one point, Data asks if caring for another being is the purpose of existence. Tam replies that for himself and for Tin Man, it is.

One of the themes this season on BtVS has been connections: who we're connected to, and what those connections mean. Buffy feels disconnected right now. The world she saves time and again does not, cannot, understand her. She doesn't even believe that those she loves the most (and who love her the most) can understand what being the Slayer has done to her. She feels, as she said, superior to them: for whatever reason, the Calling fell to her rather than to one of them. This causes her to feel paradoxically unworthy of them, of their love.

One thing I believe Buffy will have to learn before the season is out is that just as they cannot understand fully what the Slayer is, she cannot understand them fully as well. She'll never know what it is to be the most powerful witch in the world. She'll also never know what it's like to be the ordinary guy who throws himself into the fray because he can't stay away. Buffy will never know what it's like to have seen 120 years, or 1200. She'll never know what it's like to know you were created out of universe-destroying energy.

These disparate parts have come together somehow, and they must learn to accept themselves fully, and then accept each other fully. Of all of them, I think Xander's the closest to accepting himself, after all this time. He's come to terms with his role enough that he's able to counsel Dawn when she finds herself in a similar position. Willow, however, hasn't come to terms with her power or who having that power makes her. Spike can't decide who he's going to be for the rest of the day, let alone the rest of his unlife. Anya and Dawn are just discovering who they are. And Buffy? She's accepted the Slayer part of her, but has she come to terms with Buffy? I suddenly wish we had Toth's ray, just to see what each part would think of herself and the other now.

Learning to accept others is a process that begins with learning to accept yourself. Until the Scoobies have done that, they'll be disconnected. Once they have connected completely, though, I have a feeling the First will be in real trouble.
The Story of...... (Title Spoilers only for Angel 4.15) -- Dochawk, 23:09:54 03/14/03 Fri

The next episode of Angel is entitled Orpheus, so I thought it would be worthwhile to remember the greek Myth that inspired the title:

The Story of Orpheus

Orpheus was the most famous poet and musician in Greek legend. Apollo gave him his lyre and the muses taught him to play so beautifully that the trees and stones danced to it and wild beasts were tamed by it. His skill allowed him to travel alot and be granted graces by many Gods. he learned the mysteries of many of them including Osiris while he was in Egypt. Orpheus accompanied Jason and the Argonauts on their adventure for the Golden Fleece. After singing at the wedding of Jason and Medea, Orpheus fell in love with Eurydice. One day while Eurydice was walking, Aristeaus tried to ravish her, she fell and was bit by a viper dying.

Orpheus was inconsolable and resolved to bring her back from the underworld. He descended and charmed Charon, so that the ferryman carried him over the river Styx. Cerberus, the watch-dog of Tartarus was also charmed by his music and the judges of the Underworld interrupted their task to listen so the tortures of the wicked were temporarily suspended. Even Hades was softened and he allowed Eurydice to return to earth on one condition. Orpheus was not to look back as she followed him until she reached the light of the sun. When he arrived in the sun, he could no longer wait, looked back and Eurydice was lost to him forever.

After many attempted seductions by women, Orpheus was eventually attacked by a group of women who tore him from limb to limb. His head and lyre were thrown into a river and washed up on the Isle of Lesbos, where it prophesized continually (until Apollo and his Delphic oracle got jealous and his head and lyre became a constellation).


I am assuming that the title is based on Willow's leading Angel (and Faith?) back from the dead. of course, Eurydice did not return to the living, so there may be a problem in that interpetation (or Angelus could die??? nah, then how could there be a series called Angel). The idea that he learned the mysteries of Osiris is interesting given that Willow has commanded Osiris once and called upon him a second time. Someone who is far better at this stuff than I will probably see more parallels.
[> There's a 'Title' thread (right now in 1st archive) about this... -- Darby, 06:51:58 03/16/03 Sun

The Board is back! [hugs board] -- LittleBit (who was having separation anxiety), 23:01:42 03/15/03 Sat

[> Returns hug -- Random, 07:17:18 03/16/03 Sun

[> Hallelujah! -- Masq <<still sweating from yesterday>>, 08:33:44 03/16/03 Sun

[> Woohoo! (it's still a little wonky, though) -- pellenaka, who spent her time in the Archives., 08:54:53 03/16/03 Sun

[> felt like I was in a hell dimension! -- cougar (who can still barely connect), 15:39:27 03/16/03 Sun

[> [> and time has gone all wonky too -- cougar, 15:44:04 03/16/03 Sun

[> Group Hug!!!!! -- Vickie, 22:21:14 03/17/03 Mon

I proclaim a group hug, for as long as this thread lasts. Welcome back, board! I missed you smart/strange people.
Questions,Spoiler and Spec: the Beast's Master -- luvthistle1, 00:47:07 03/16/03 Sun

Question about Calvary: where was Lorne?

When Cordy killed Lilah, in Calvary, Were was Lorne? I do
not remember him leaving with Gunn, Wes, Fred, and Connor. so Lorne should had still been in the hotel? I haven't seen this answered yet.

Why would the Bringer/harbingers try to kill Faith?

Did the Bringers/Harbingers actually try and kill "Faith"? Think about, it was the Bringer's knife. But it wasn't a bringer. killing Faith "might" had activated a new slayer, .. an less experience one , but a new slayer just the same, and it will reactivate the slayer line, before all the sits are killed off. Deb( the one who tried to actually kill Faith)) said that it was nothing personal, but she needed "The Money. Which implied that someone ,paid, or offer to pay her to kill Faith. The bringer are blind and hardly ever speak, and noticeably scary looking. so they are not the type of people that would hire a "hit person". or who could walk around unnoticed. Caleb was brought in to kill/trap the slayer. so, there would not be a reason for him, to hire a hit man. because , in a way he is the hit man.

So,Who put a hit out on Faith?

I think the watcher Council, or someone who had worked for the council before . maybe even "Giles," or the one who sees every thing.




Speculation:

Who the voice in Angel's head? -Sahjhan!

Sahjhan is non-corporeal ( like FE) .

Suppose ,Justine, or another demon release him., and while working alone with Skip, takes over Cordy's body. Skip ,told Cordy that she must go with him, that she had became a "higher being", yet he never told her what an higher being means. She died, and her soul left her body. Meanwhile, another demon/Justine ,takes over Cordy's body. Wes said in "ROF" that the beast was trying to raise something, or bring something back. Who? and why did they kill all of W& H and leave "AI" alone? Because, W&H would have known who it was. It's Sahjhan! since he is non-corporeal he would need a body . He might come back as Cordy and Connor child, So Connor will protect him, instead of killing him. That's why Cordy kill Lilah, she had worked with Sahjhan,before and would have figure it out. Angel did not recognize him, last season, and Sahjhan seems a bit surprise. But it wasn't Angel, who would recognize him, But 'Angelus'. but it all to bring about the Nyazian prophecies "which states "the one born out of darkness to bring forth darkness'. the child that would end the world.



Speculations welcome. please feel free to e-mail, as well.
[> There are spoilers above for final eps of BtVS -- jnk, 04:38:45 03/16/03 Sun

Shower scenes in Salvage and Psycho (no plot spoilers for Salvage, *serious* ones for Psycho) -- LonesomeSundown, 06:15:33 03/16/03 Sun

Glad to see the board up again. There is very little as frustrating as having a post all dressed up with no place to go!

I was watching Salvage (again!) and thought it would be intesting to compare Faith's shower scene with the granddaddy of all shower scenes. The sequence from Salvage seems to be clearly inspired by Psycho - the way the camera focuses on Faith just before she gets into the shower, shots of water gushing from the shower head, the air of calm shattering into kinetic violence, the rapid cuts between different camera angles in Psycho and the cuts between Faith's face and hands pulverizing the wall, the intense emotions - terror in Psycho and something else in Salvage (more about this later in the post) - and blood. It's all about blood - blood mixing with water, blood spilled in one and blood washed away in the other, life oozing away with blood in one and life flooding back into Faith in the other.

In Psycho, Marion Crane had just completed a mental tidy - she had decided to go back to Phoenix and return the money she had stolen and get out of her "private trap". The shower is the physical counterpart of the cleansing, but she is interrupted and neither the physical nor the psychological process is completed. Faith, on the other hand, has made more progress than Marion. She completes her shower and is rejuvenated. Perhaps a sign that she will be successful in saving Angel and will escape her private trap?

About Faith's emotions in the shower scene: I don't have a handle on what she's feeling. There's pent-up anger, I think, or maybe frustration. At what? Being beaten up by the Beast? Her failure to get Angel back? Something else?

How about Wes and Norman Bates? You know, they kind of look similar if you go past the clean-shaven, spiffily clad figure of Norman and the fuzzy Wes. Then there's the whole thing where he fell off the rocker, slipped on the lost marbles and bumped his head, turning into a wacko. Okay, maybe that's a little unfair to Wes, but he IS scary - especially when he makes like Norman with the knife in the bar later.

Just some ramblings, but then I got thinking about the influence of movies on Buffy and Angel. Not thematic and genre influences, but VISUAL influences. Are there particular scenes in BtVS or AtS that pay homage to famous cinematic scenes/directors? Here's one I thought of, but can't verify because I don't have the movie handy and I'm too lazy to search my stack of unlabeled Buffy tapes. I'm thinking of one of the later episodes from Season 5 (sorry, don't know the name) in which the Scooby Gang is fleeing from the knights of Byzantium in a van. There is a fight sequence with the knights who are on horseback which reminded me of the classic John Wayne western Stagecoach. Any thoughts?
[> Oops! That should be shower scenes in **Release**, not **Salvage** (NT) -- LonesomeSundown, who can never remember episode names :-(, 09:30:56 03/16/03 Sun

[> Hmm I was thinking of Volcano High -- neaux, 17:31:42 03/17/03 Mon

While probably not as good a reference as Psycho.. Volcano High has its own memorable shower scene.

Volcano High (Korean 2002) is a superhero story with a main character hesitant to use his power in school rivalries for fear of killing people. The anticipation hightens as he has near fights for the first half of the movie.. and its not until he goes to "the shower" that he decides what he must do.

In this scene the main character enters the shower to relax/unwind and think of what he must do. Should he fight this huge battle at school or not? Should he unleash this deadly power?

While he is contemplating battle, Here he practices controlling the elements.. particularly the water around him.. as matrix style effects circle him.. the water drops from the showers are frozen in time. But if I remember correctly his power is too much and bursts the pipes.

which reminded me of Faith's anger and hitting the tiles.

Like I said this is kinda an obscure thought, I couldnt help but think about Volcano High's shower scene and Faith's.
[> [> Re: Hmm I was thinking of Volcano High -- LonesomeSundown, 19:28:56 03/17/03 Mon

Sounds like an interesting film. Where did you find it?
[> [> [> WEBPAGE Highlight -- neaux, 07:32:40 03/18/03 Tue

Americans should get their HK fix at
Poker Industries

great site, great movies.
My analysis of 'Release' is up -- Masquerade, 08:43:11 03/16/03 Sun

Here. This is another one of those cases, as with "Storyteller" and some other episodes, in which I didn't care much for an episode on first viewing it, then changed my mind after getting into an analyses of its salty philosophical goodness.

The interactions of Wesley and Faith in particular represent an interesting debate over differing tactics in the fight for Good--Wesley's "use any means necessary, no matter how ruthless" vs. Faith's refusal to risk killing Angel/"There's got to be another way."

I want to thank the folks on the board who posted on this ep on Thursday because it really helped me figure out what was going on with Wesley and Faith. A special thanks goes out to our own very Wise not-so-lurking-dub, whose interesting theory about the Angelus/Faith fight made me look at the whole Wesley/Faith interaction in a new light.

We'll see if we're right next Weds.

Another chilling note for me in this episde is the way in which Evil!Cordelia has completely put Connor under her control. If this manipulation goes as far back as that infamous scene in Apocalypse Nowish, or worse, shacking up with him in Slouching towards Bethlehem, then I really fear for the Miracle Child's role in the apocalypse. And I am really starting to wonder exactly what force enabled Darla to get pregnant in the first place.
[> ATPo archives updated through March 10th -- Masq, 09:51:41 03/16/03 Sun

Link above.

Yeah Lady Starlight! Yeah Aliera!
[> Glad to help -- Jay - who's not above grabbing others credit, 17:10:23 03/16/03 Sun

[> possibility on the knife -- anom, 19:42:04 03/16/03 Sun

This is actually a comment on Salvage, whose review I missed when it was posted.

"How Angelus determines that the Beast's knife is forged from his bones (as opposed to something else's bones) isn't clear, since the Beast does not appear to be missing any body parts."

Yeah, I noticed that when the Beast offered the knife to its then-unknown boss. Maybe it regenerates really fast...or did.

As to how Angelus knew it was made from the Beast, maybe it was by smell. He was led to the site by the smell of Lilah's blood on the knife, & it makes sense that the knife itself would smell like the Beast. I figured that was why (the writers' motivation, not his) Angelus made the comment about Lilah's blood.
[> [> Good idea! -- Masq, 21:10:15 03/16/03 Sun

[> One disagreement -- Sophist, 17:23:38 03/17/03 Mon

I generally agree with your discussion of the philosophy of fighting evil. However, there is one point of disagreement:

"This philosophy is sometimes called the philosophy of "total war"--the belief that Good must sometimes stoop to the same methods as Evil if it is to have any hope of defeating Evil. ... This is a philosophy that the Slayer Buffy has traditionally rejected: "You can't fight evil with evil". ... It is interesting to note that Buffy has recently come around to arguing that Spike must fight Evil as viciously as he once fought Good if they are to win against the First Evil."

I don't see the bold language as inconsistent with Buffy's long-held philosophy. Her argument, as I understood it, is that Willow and Spike were not contributing to the fight to the full extent of their capabilities. This does not mean that Spike should abandon all restraint. It does mean that when he fights, he must use his full strength and not hold back.

Based upon your analysis, Wesley's argument seems to be that any tactic is justified. I doubt Buffy would agree, and I don't see her speech to Willow and Spike as evidence of such agreement. I do think that once she decides on a tactic, she expects others to carry it out as best they possibly can.

BTW, is there a dropped tag somewhere? I didn't put this whole post in italics, but it's coming out that way....
[> [> As is the rest of the board -- Finn Mac Cool, 17:55:34 03/17/03 Mon

On the Italics issue. I'm glad it's not just my computer.
[> [> Re: One disagreement -- Masq, 18:27:58 03/17/03 Mon

I'll accept what you say about Buffy. I was using her mainly as an example of a position opposed to Wesley's, and the other comment was really more of an aside.

Wesley's argument seems to be that any tactic is justified

Not exactly. His position, I think, is that any necessary tactic is justified. In other words, Good must do whatever is necessary to prevail, even if the only way to prevail is to be as ruthless as its opponents. There are several arguments against this.

One is that these ruthless methods are, in fact, not necessary for Good to prevail. I think this is what Faith is hoping--that she will not have to tap into her own darkness, the side of her that allowed her to murder and torture, in order to capture Angelus.

Another argument is that IF ruthless methods are indeed required for Good to prevail, than Good must surrender rather than stoop to them, because it makes Good just as bad as Evil and then there is no benefit in Good prevailing. This argument isn't relevant in this particular scenario, just thought I'd point it out for thoroughness. ; )
[> [> [> Addendum -- Masq, 18:31:16 03/17/03 Mon

OK, maybe not surrender, but go ahead and fight a hopeless battle.
[> [> [> Classic Trek -- F.F., 20:51:33 03/17/03 Mon

Are there any Trekers here? And do you remember the episode where Kirk and Spock teamed up with Abraham Lincoln and Sarok to fight against a group of historical baddies. The point of the episode is that a group of aliens were conducting a test to find the difference between good and evil. The conclusion they came to was that the difference is not in how good fights, but why. I'm sorry if this seems like a kind of lame reference (I feel a little bit like Andrew) and it does seem a bit simplistic but I think it makes a good point.
[> [> [> [> We've had this debate on this board many times -- Masq, 21:03:52 03/17/03 Mon

There was this poster named "Max" who was a proponent of the "Total War" view. His favorite example, cited over and over, was "The Savage Curtain". As arguments go, it's pretty hypothetical and fictional. Another example that gets dragged in is "La Femme Nakita". Also fictional.

BtVS has been pretty anti-TW. Buffy again and again finds ways of fighting evil that do not require her to stoop to the methods of evil (killing innocents, "collateral damage", etc). But of course, BtVS is fictional, too. One wonders if she could have had as much luck being "a hero" if her world was real life.
[> Thanks, Masq. Is that my first quote in one of your summaries? -- cjl, 07:07:56 03/18/03 Tue

I'm no longer a virgin.
I want to love BtVS again (spoiler =up to Storyteller & Release plus predictions) -- lunasea, 17:48:26 03/16/03 Sun

I debated whether to post this. I am sure that I am going to be accused of all sorts of things, such as trashing BtVS or having shipper's glasses. Then I thought, maybe others out there were having (or had) the same problem. My problem: I want to love BtVS again. I don't.

The last time I was thrilled was watching Giles get away from the harbinger's ax. Before that, the last time was "Conversations with Dead People." Everything in between has been solidly written and I was entertained while watching it, but for the most part, when the grr argh monster walked across the screen, the episode was over for me. I don't like that. I like replaying the episode over in my head again and again. I like remembering great lines of dialogue or thinking about things that hit some chord in me. I like speculating, without being spoiled. Tuesdays weren't the end of my BtVS experience. They were just the beginning.

It didn't start out that way. With "Lessons" and that particular big bad, I was hooked. I thought "Beneath You" dragged a bit, but that ending! Even a Spike hater had to be impressed with the acting and everything about that scene. Maybe this Spike would be interesting. Maybe I could even like him. I wanted to like him. I wanted to feel something other than pity for him for a change. Was admiration asking too much? Would I have to eat my words on the boards? I hoped so.

"Same Time, Same Place" had that great idea, Willow unconsciously cast a spell because she was too scared to see her friends AND for them to see her. I like that both sides were addressed. It wasn't just her seeing them, but also them seeing her. I also found it interesting that Anya wasn't effected. Willow doesn't feel like Anya is her friend. Only Buffy, Xander and Dawn. Again, the end was the best part of the whole thing. I replayed that scene a hundred times in my head the next week. Same thing with Spike interacting with everyone.

Then we got "Help." So Spike is still a weenie. I'm not a big fan of Rebecca Rand Kirshner. In later seasons, her episodes tend to be my least favorite. It is just a personal preference thing. I liked the idea of the episode, but the episode was so-so. Not like STSP where the idea and the execution thrilled me. I am more of a Jane fan, than a Rebecca one. Just personal preference. I liked "Selfless." I replayed the conversation between Buffy, Xander and Willow a hundred times that week. I loved the dynamism of this episode. I loved the spider demon, Willow yelling at the girl, Anya's flashbacks. Pretty much everything. I loved "Him." I laughed and thought it was the perfect filler episode. It really showed the characters and their roles well. Spike had my favorite moment, the funniest this season until "Storytellers."

Then we get "Conversations with Dead People." That is one episode that can't be watched just once. Sure it would have been better with Tara (or even Jenny Calendar), but they did a great job with what they had available. I couldn't wait to see Buffy work out the issues she talked to Holden about. I knew Dawn would be a pain after this, but that is her function on the show, to be a thorn in Buffy's side while also being something for her to love (that and to give teens someone they can relate to). I was looking forward to seeing how this changed Willow. Then there was the OMG moment, Jonathan. His speech was beautiful. It made me almost miss the pains I went to High School with.

I loved BtVS up to this point. I wasn't just looking forward to seeing how it ended. I was looking forward to the journey. Then something happened. Actually, two somethings happened. First was BtVS itself. "Sleeper," "Never Leave Me," "Bring on the Night," "Showtime," "Potential," "Killer in Me," and "First Date." Not one of those thrilled me. Not one really made me think about anything or even want to think about anything. 7 episodes. That is a lot of not thinking for someone like me. I liked the Eye in "Showtime," but everything seemed to be so obvious. Nothing required much thought. The symbolism, the themes, predictions. It was all too easy. That isn't to say that I didn't enjoy them when I was watching them. I did, mostly. They just didn't carry over to the rest of the week. I thought more about the overall season than I did particular episodes. That is what my essays reflected.

But I had something else that required my thought, AtS. I liked "Deep Down," but not quite like I did "Lessons." The Champions speech was great. "Ground State" was OK. Then we get "The House Always Wins." What a great idea. That one stayed with me for a while. "Slouching Towards Bethlehem" was OK. Same with "Supersymmetry." Nothing too major there, but I was focused more on BtVS any way. I had to get my ideas about the First out of my head and into electrons.

"Spin the Bottle" was incredible. I spent most of the episode on the floor, I was laughing so hard. Best part, not only was it incredibly funny, but it was incredibly revealing. I liked it better than Tabula Rasa (but again that is personal preference. Joss is a much better writer than Rebecca, IMNSHO). As it brought the theme of identity forward, I began to take a much deeper look at the earlier episodes from this perspective. The shows were more on equal footing in what consumed me.

"Rain of Fire." I wanted a brain sucker after that one, but that was nothing to what we had to endure the next episode on "Habeas Corpses." That was incredible. I *became* Angel. I didn't mind be disgusted so much because it was what I was supposed to be. I liked wanting a brain sucker. I liked being disgusted. I liked having strong feelings about a show. I like hating characters. I like hating what they do. Passion. That is what matters to me. Thinking is great, too, but I want both. Irrational-fan girl and wannabe-writer girl both need to be fed.

I knew about the big change Angel would go through this season and I knew they were manipulating things so that this could happen, but I was so caught up in what was happening, I wasn't wanting to rush through episodes to get there. When I got there, it would be great. Until then, I was enjoying the ride. Quite the opposite of my feelings about BtVS at that point.

I liked "Long Day's Journey." The imagery of the sun crossing the sky as it related to man's identity was a great choice. Then to blot that out. Great way to set up LA to become a demon's play ground, but incredible way to tie to the theme (also the timing of the black out and the return of the sun was great). AtS has tied to the theme so well that it just keeps me digging and digging and digging.

I LOVED "Awakening" (though was grateful I was spoiled). My head was racing to decipher the fantasy. And that last word out of Angel's mouth. OMG. What did that mean!!! I had to know. Irrational-fan girl couldn't contain herself, especially not after the quick dismissal of her as "my girlfriend" in "Deep Down." (or even worse, just a a crush in interviews last year) I knew that I wouldn't find out until the resouling, but THAT was something worth waiting for. Giles' beheading, yawn (though I loved when they showed him getting out of it). It had little to do with the theme, so it didn't concern me. The Buffygasm wasn't just a plot device or a cliff hanger to entertain me. It had to do with the theme of identity and denial that would drive this season. Such sweet torture to wait for the answer.

But I didn't care. ANGELUS was back!!!!! "Soulless" and "Calvary." Those episodes are STILL going on in my head. I don't really care if we haven't see a lot of death. Angelus' weapon has always been his brain. That is why I love him. It was great to see that Angel wasn't as clueless as he pretended to be. It was even more delicious to see how dissociative Angelus was. This was going to be amazing. They were going to have to resolve this this season. THIS season. This is the season I have been waiting for.

To top that off, they went in a direction I didn't see. I knew that they would have to deal with how Angel/Angelus were related. That was a given. Why bring Angelus back, except for this purpose? I thought Act 1 set up all the conflict so that Act 2 would be Angelus torturing the Gang based on Angel's issues. That would have been entertaining, but pretty predictable. Instead of Angel discovering how he is related to Angelus, they are going the other way (my prediction) with Angelus finding out where Angel comes from. It is just too delicious for words. That is why Angelus hasn't really done anything. That would just clutter up what Angel/us is going to discover. Instead of loading him down with guilt and angst they are taking him some where else. That is incredible and makes those Angelus episodes that much more amazing.

As if that wasn't enough, FAITH IS BACK. They gave me just enough time between "Calvary" and "Salvage" to really get worked up about this. I had a million questions about how they would reintroduce her and how she would fit with the Gang. I think Fury did an amazing job. He just dealt with everything head-on and quickly. I must have replayed some of those lines a hundred times.

A bit about those lines. If every one was absolutely amazing, none of them would be. I think my favorite Angelus line was in "Release." "You can kiss my vampire ass" still gets me laughing (it is even hard to type it, seeing as I am laughing now). I was expecting something incredible and it wasn't, so it was. Sure he could have said something more amazing and menacing, but I think that it was so simple and honest that really got to me. I like that about Angelus. He isn't trying too hard to be menacing all the time. Every line doesn't have to be perfect. He isn't always trying. Sometimes things just come flying out. The stuff he has said to Fred shows what he is capable of when he puts his mind to it. He just doesn't always put his mind to it. I like the underachiever he can be.

Also about the delivery of those lines. This isn't Spike. If Angelus is being played a certain way, it isn't because of the limitations of the actor. Same with with Buffy and her speeches. They are directed to play them that way. If this isn't how you think Angelus or Buffy should be played, that is one thing. It is another to assume that it is the actors' faults. We have seen both capable of some amazing things. If their current roles required that, they could and would deliver.

Back to Faith. "Salvage" and "Release" have been incredible. Talk about thrilling. Ever since Angelus has shown up, my heart actually races when I watch AtS. I want that feeling when I watch BtVS. I used to get it, even in the dreaded season six. I want two things to go through my mind simultaneously during the week. I want to replay the last episode and I want to be on pins and needles for the next one.

"Orpheus." Just the name had me speculating when I found it out weeks ago. Little did I expect it to be the episode I was waiting for ever since I found out Angel was getting his own spin-off. When "Release" finished with that cliff hanger I couldn't stop thinking about it. It made me rewatch it over and over until I figured it out. I wish I didn't know that I was right. It takes something away. Damn spoilers.

But who cares. That is just the plot device that sets up "Orpheus." It doesn't have to do with the theme. It is like the beheading of Giles, just something to make us go OMG. (there is a weak tie to the themes for both, Giles being disconnected from his head and I'll leave Angel for next week) At least this won't take several episodes to resolve. If I wasn't spoiled, it would be something to make me look forward to next week. Since I am sort-of spoiled, what else is there is more than sufficient to keep me looking forward.

But BtVS? Only one more before the final 5 episode arc. One more episode I have to endure. Since Spike has been decidedly lacking, I would venture that it will center around him and get him set up for the final push. I am sure it is something that Spike fans have been wanting to see for a while. Probably will be pretty filler for those who aren't that interested. I want to eat crow when it comes to him. I hope this episode will do that, but I doubt it. More likely it will just make him look like a bigger mama's boy. Come on ME, I NEED to be wrong. I need to like Spike. I need to hate Spike. I need to feel something other than pity.

If Buffy feels something, make me feel it. They have been so good at that in the past. I love BtVS because it really takes me into the Buffyverse. Everything is completely believable, because I FEEL it, too. I've been accused of shippers glasses, but don't you think that Buffy wears them, too? If they are going to get *her* over Angel, they better be able to take me with her. They actually expect me (or her) to "forget?" I doubt it.

Back to my problem. I don't love BtVS right now. I have started rewatching the whole thing, from "Welcome to the Hellmouth," to try and find that love. I want to love BtVS and AtS. I used to. Maybe it is asking too much right now. When they were written together, they made sure that if one was a comedy, the other wasn't. If one was ultra-serious, the other lightened up a bit. Typically it was AtS that made the change and followed BtVS. It is called the Buffyverse for a reason. Now AtS stands on its own.

We have 2 pretty intense seasons going on. Can two stand alone shows that come from the same verse keep me equally attracted? Not so sure. Solution: they aren't going to stand alone much longer. When you watch both shows, you do get another layer to both. Angel's speeches were a great contrast to Buffy's. AtS is much better if you know the full history of the Buffyverse. Could they have thrown in more references to BtVS in "Release?"

The best part of crossovers is seeing how a character reacts to the changed form of characters she once knew. Who doesn't want to see Willow's reaction (if she ever shows up) to new-improved Wesley, Cordy or Faith? Then she can take that info back with her to Sunnydale. When Wesley was giving Faith the entire lowdown on what has happened with Angel, including Connor and being in the ocean, I was thinking "That is how Buffy may find out. What will her reaction be?" (that and I started bouncing. I get pretty physical when I watch these shows)

But the shows can't just be the characters reacting to past events. We have to see some serious growth forward. Those reactions can be the catalyst for that growth. Denial has been the fuel for both series this season. BtVS will provide the match to the flame on AtS that will ignite that into something spectacular and vice versa. The Buffygasm really opened a door on AtS that has to be dealt with. As the walls of denial come crashing down around Angel, Buffy will be finding out about what has been going on with him and her own walls will come crashing down. I think a great episode would be if they did something like the trial scene in "The Wall."

They will have to see what makes them into such pains (both as Angelus and as Field Marshall Buffy) and deal with that. The shows may or may not have the same apocalypse going on, but they will be tied together in what our heroes are dealing with. I will want to see both. I will love both. My love for one will carry over to the other.

At least I hope that is what happens. I have a lot of hope. "Get it Done" did hold me for more than a night. So did "Storyteller." I LOVED "Storyteller." It felt good to feel that again. With not having an episode in a while, it has been hard to maintain that feeling. It wasn't a strong enough episode to lead me to weeks of nothing. Buffy won't be straight through when they come back. AtS will. Those weeks of AtS will have to carry BtVS. I have a feeling they will.
[> It's a matter of taste, I think. -- HonorH, 20:13:41 03/16/03 Sun

I've been spellbound, riveted by this season of BtVS. I've watched every episode at least twice (with the exception of "Help"), and only a few have left me less-than-enthused. I'm intrigued by the path Buffy's taking lately. Is she right? Is she wrong? What should she be doing? What shouldn't she?

I'm loving the other characters, too. Willow's just starting to find her way again, but I've liked her more this season than I have for the past two. Xander--Mr. Heart finally has it all together. I love his part in things this year. Dawn is truly coming into her own (and, btw, has notably *not* been "a pain"), taking on whatever comes her way and adjusting pretty well, I think, to the radical changes that've come her way. And Spike? I'm very intrigued by where he is and where he's going. Mama's boy? Funny you should say that. That's all I'm saying. JM has acted the heck out of his transitions--madness to depression to determination to reluctance and back to semi-badass.

I'm psyched about what's coming up. I'm desperate to see WKCS and the less-well-known one. I want to see what precisely they can do to circumvent the FE's plans. I want to know where Buffy's path is leading her.

So maybe it is just a matter of taste. You're not loving it; I am. What can ya do? *Shrug*
[> [> I just want to love Voy again -- luna (Masq, I know it's not you), 17:44:00 03/17/03 Mon

[> Re: I want to love BtVS again (spoiler =up to Storyteller & Release plus predictions) -- maddog, 09:30:28 03/18/03 Tue

I think we can all understand not enjoying our favorite show for a reason or two. I know I've thought some episodes were worse than others. What I have a hard time believing is that one of Buffy's first big speeches didn't just give you goosebumps. The one at the end "Bring on the Night" I believe. Buffy's demeanor...it changed...it wasn't like the speeches preceeding or even the lame ones we hear now. It raw and emotional...I must have watched it ten times over.

"I'm beyond tired. I'm beyond scared. I'm standing on the mouth of hell and it is going to swallow me whole. (beat; hard) And it'll choke on me. We're not ready? They're not ready. They think we're going to wait for the end to come, like we always do. I'm done waiting. They want an apocalypse? Oh, we'll give 'em one. Anyone else who wants to run, do it now because we just became an army. We just declared war. From now on, we won't just face our worst fears, we will seek them out. We will find them and cut out their hearts one by one until The First shows itself for what it really is. And I'll kill it myself. There is only
one thing on this earth more powerful than evil and that's us. Any questions?"

I was ready to jump in and fight then. I don't know...maybe it was just me.
[> [> Re: I want to love BtVS again (spoiler =up to Storyteller & Release plus predictions) -- lunasea, 09:41:47 03/18/03 Tue

Are you one of those people that yell at horror movies "DON'T GO IN THERE!!!!!" I am. That speech made me yell it again. After it I knew we would be in for a couple of episodes of going down the wrong path (I didn't know that they would use this many though) before we got to the more interesting stuff (to me any way).

You can't fight evil with evil and you can't fight the First with that Speech or what it advocates. It is the wrong attitude and has led to all those episodes I wish they could have used differently.

But that will all change soon. I just wish it had changed sooner. Connect-disconnect-reconnect. Couldn't they just disconnect in 3 episodes instead?

After that speech I did have one question, when are you going to actually start asking some.
Very OT: What sort of TV show would you make? -- Finn Mac Cool, 18:18:58 03/17/03 Mon

This really doesn't have anything to do with BtVS or AtS. But, as fans of great television, I think the people of this board might have some interesting answers to this question:

Suppose some network executives made you an offer. They would let you brainstorm the idea for a new television show. They wouldn't actually pay you any money for it, but it would be converted to the screen exactly as you want, and it could be any type of show you want. It could be of any genre, have any sort of plot, any sort of characters, any sort of graphic content, and have any sort of narrative structure. In short, you'd have complete creative control. If given this opportunity, what sort of show would you want to create?

You can be as specific as you want; you can go into a detailed analysis of the premise. You can also be very vague, saying as little as what sort of genre it would be. Just thinking that, with all the intelligent people on this board, it might be interesting to find out what you all would do.
[> One of the show ideas I'd suggest.. -- ZachsMind, 23:09:22 03/17/03 Mon

First off, I wouldn't be the creative front runner of a tv show if I weren't getting paid for it.

That said. I think I'd wanna tell a story about one of those girls you see in those hack n slash monster movies. The girl who walks into a dark alley and gets attacked by the mean bad guy in a mask with a cleaver, but this girl would be able to defend herself. I always feel sorry for that girl that gets killed in the first few minutes of a tv show.

I'd have to set up some kinda slight twist on normal reality, to explain the world she's in. I mean most monster movies have one serial killer bad guy like Jason or Freddy or The Candyman. Usually it's just one guy and that one guy never dies. However, in order to make a television series you'd need a variety of bad guys, and you'd need some way to explain where all these bad guys come from. The world in which the story was told would have to be very familiar, almost as if it were the real world, but that throughout history there's been this mystical battle between the forces of good and evil that doesn't get reported in the press. It's not something that the public ever knows. Almost as if there's something old and magical keeping normal human beings from seeing it.

So I think what I'd do is establish early on in the series that there's this driving force of evil which has been in reality since the beginning, and that it has always existed, and always works in the shadows manipulating the actions of humans in subtle ways. It was in Ghengis Khan. It was in Adolf Hitler. It was in Napoleon. It was in Dahmer and Bundy. It seeks out human beings who already have a cancer of bitterness against its fellow man, and then uses that cancer like a seed to grow more darkness in the soul, thus increasing its power.

This power spreads itself by taking over people. Possessing them and then using their bodies to commit evil acts. So anyone could be 'twisted.' However, this is a process that takes time for it to do properly without damaging the vessel irrevocably, only a few at a time could be completely possessed. Others would retain their conscience, but the evil power would darken their souls and pervert their perception of the truth, making them do wrong but making them think they're doing right. Over time this evil would take over these people more and more, until it was able to possess them utterly. Only by slowly cultivating the evil in men, could it increase its power. This wouldn't explain ALL evil in Mankind, but it used the evil in some men's hearts like fertile soil for its own twisted ends.

But that as long as there's been this evil, there's also been this other force: a force of good. The force of evil multiplies itself and spreads itself through humanity, but the more it does so the weaker it gets. So it can only fully embody a few human beings at a time, and then darken a few dozen others at a time through its influence.

This power of good is not so greedy. It chooses instead to centralize itself inside the body of one person - a young woman, and when it inhabits this girl, it can extend its powers to a few of those she touches. It tends to choose those who have little to no darkness within their souls. It picks a child. It picks a mentally challenged young man. It picks a defrocked priest who recently left his parish because he could no longer tolerate the hypocrisy he saw in his own superiors. These were the first people that the girl found and saved from the forces of evil.

When she touches certain people, most of the time nothing happens, but when the good power within her finds a suitable candidate, some power from the girl extends into the candidate, and that person then gets some kinda special ability intended to help the girl defeat evil. Each time, depending on the person, the power of good manifests itself in different ways. Never the same way twice.

This girl is approached by a group of people who devote their lives to seeking out the people that this good power uses to fight evil. They call themselves The Vigil Assembly. They refer to the girl only as The Vessel. Those who aquired abilities from her, they call "The Seven" because through generations of study they've learned how this power of good works, and that it only extends its power to seven other individuals at a time beyond the Vessel, in order to keep its powers from being spread too thin.

They explain to The Vessel that she can choose to select some of her assistants in the fight of good over evil. She can force the power of good to go into another, through a ritual that involved blood to blood transfer - like the 'blood brother' ritual of some Native American tribes. They show her many potentials they have found who would be most ideal for this process, and the girl agrees to some of their potential, but she saves the last one for her own counsel.

The girl chooses to do the ritual with a friend of hers who she has known since childhood. Someone she trusts, but unbeknownst to her, this friend of hers harbors hatred in her heart, and is not an ideal candidate. This person turns out to be weak potential, and soon after the girl does the blood brother ritual with her friend, the power of evil also attempts to influence her friend, and for a time her best friend becomes her rival, the power of good versus evil seething within her.

Over time, the Vessel would work with her other six, with the help of the Vigil Assembly, and they would fight the force of evil wherever it chose to go, and chase after it as it jumped from person to person, killing as it went. This would manifest itself as the bulk of the first season. Every week, the Vessel, her six, and the Vigil Assembly, would hunt down the force of evil and find its next inhabitants, where it would fight them and ultimately persevere, but at times with great risks and at great cost.

They would seek a way to contain the evil force, and the Vessel would also seek a way to save her close friend who by halfway through the first season had turned completely evil, but with the good force still dormant within her. The Vigil Assembly would learn that the only way to capture the power would be to get The Vessel's friend, trick the power of evil into going completely into her, and then trap the evil in that one body by placing The Vessel's best friend into a state of eternal suspended animation, which The Vessel would be completely against doing.

By the end of season one, the Vessel would find herself in a checkmate with the power of evil that had overtaken her friend. The power of evil would promise to spare her friend's life, if the Vessel allowed the force to vacate the body and enter The Vessel directly. The season one cliffhanger would have the Vessel and her best friend staring at each other. The Vessel would cut her hand, and cut her friend's hand, and clasp their hands together. At which point the evil force inside her best friend would say, "oh, we don't need blood to blood anymore." And then the dark force of evil would explode out of her friend's eyes, destroying her eyes in the process (leaving her best friend blinded), and into the mouth and nose of The Vessel.

Season two would start with The Vessel being controlled by the evil force. Her best friend would now be blind, but would otherwise be relatively unscathed. She'd know information she gleaned from the power of evil while she was in its clutches, and the Vigil Assembly would use this knowledge to try to save The Vessel from herself, and from the evil brewing inside her.
Could anyone lend me a hand with this? -- Finn Mac Cool, 18:40:02 03/17/03 Mon

This week, I have a project I have to do for my TV production class. The project is to do a slide-show bio of someone who has been very significant in either movies or television. Naturally, being the Buffyholic that I am, my thoughts turned to doing my bio on Joss Whedon. But this raised a problem: while there is no question in my mind that I could show how Joss is a great writer in television, it's very hard to prove he's a "significant person" to someone who doesn't watch Buffy or Angel. So, does anyone have any suggestions for how I can show that Joss Whedon has dramatically changed television? Someone here has to have something I can say beyond just "He created 'Buffy the Vampire Slayer'."
[> Re: Could anyone lend me a hand with this? -- Calvin, 19:13:05 03/17/03 Mon

I would focus on the role of "Buffy" in popular culture. Just look at some of the tv shows and movies that came out after "Buffy" came on the air. It's hard to imagine "Alias" on the air without "Buffy" paving the way. So, actually, your first instinct is correct, I think.

Calvin
[> Re: Could anyone lend me a hand with this? -- LonesomeSundown, 20:17:25 03/17/03 Mon

while there is no question in my mind that I could show how Joss is a great writer in television, it's very hard to prove he's a "significant person" to someone who doesn't watch Buffy or Angel. So, does anyone have any suggestions for how I can show that Joss Whedon has dramatically changed television?

While it is difficult to make the case that Joss has influenced other writers/directors in television, you can very definitely focus on the fresh ground he has broken in Buffy.

1) Innovative storytelling techniques in episodes like Hush, Restless, The Body, OMWF

2) Technical innovations in these episodes.
For example, http://www.lazysuperheroes.com/reviews/buffythebody says


The cinematography also perfectly encapsulates their confusion. A number of different framing devices are used throughout the episode that are a departure from the norm - the most predominant of which is featured in the scene shared between Buffy and the paramedic. From Buffy's perspective we only see the man from the lower half of his face downward, as, in her disorientated state, she tries to understand what he is telling her. The framing, coupled with the silence, also serves to provide a sense of a separation between the Scoobies and the rest of the world. Their interaction in the early stages is minimal. It is punctuated once by the paramedics who exhibit requisite sympathy before quickly leaving Buffy to her own devices, and the detachment is again brilliantly depicted in the scene at Dawn's school. Buffy takes her out of the classroom to deliver the news whilst the camera remains inside, filming them through the window as Dawn collapses to the floor. The audience, like the students in the class, is unable to hear any of Buffy's dialogue - remaining distanced from the trauma like the outside world.


I seem to remember reading, maybe in the Watcher's Guide, that the Gentlemen's gliding motion in Hush was done using cranes or cherry-pickers or something like that.

That's all I can think of at the moment. Hopefully you'll get some more ideas. Good luck!
[> A Couple of Ideas -- Haecceity, 13:08:33 03/18/03 Tue

Funny you should mention this...

I am also working on a "how ME changed television" project, and while my focus is a little different (form over content), maybe this might help.

I think the key contribution Joss/ME has provided is their dedication to the extended narrative arc. As someone here said the other day, ME has pretty much abandoned the idea of episodic television altogether. A series in which events/emotions are echoed, reflected and elaborated upon over *years* rather than in short arcs within a single season has provided the ability for shows to portray deeper ideas, more realistic characters as well as create an intense emotional bond with its viewers. In creating a storyspace where every word/action has bearing/potential bearing upon emotions/events, ME has brought existential drama to television. Keeping all the positive qualities of soap opera (extended narrative arcs, large casts with weighty storylines for every character, an emphasis on emotional growth over day-to-day plotting), but focusing on more philosophical/societal issues, ME has crafted an intelligent, challenging storyspace which invites its viewers into a set-apart world for the hashing out of serious issues.

This emphasis on ideas is not merely implicit, for ME interacts with its audience at a level unknown before in television history. It is in ME's communication with its viewers that the company shows its revolutionary leanings. The fact that Joss and other high-level producers are regular contributors to boards, attendees at fan get-togethers, etc. shows an interaction with audience that most folks in the biz would find unthinkable. The Posting Board Party alone is worthy of mention as a television milestone. There have been conferences forever, but day to day interacton via internet is a different animal entirely.

And while we're on the subject of communication, how about a few words on the language of Buffy? Next to cohabitation in a bouded space, the next most unifying principle amongst a group of people is a shared language. It is a kind of gatekeeper--it brings people together, but also sets them apart. If one knows the language, they are an insider--think of legalese, or (being a TV production type) set-speak--a member of the community. Now look at the way we write on this board, or any of the Buffy boards for that matter. "Buffyspeak" may have influenced society as a whole (by the way, there's a great book on this coming out from Oxford University Press this spring), but it has been adopted entirely by the Buffyverse community. And where do the writers say Buffyspeak comes from? Mr. Whedon and his own whimsical grammar.

You may want to peruse the articles over at Slayage. I haven't been there in awhile, but they are sure to have something regarding the whole media angle. I hope this helps.

Good luck!

---Haecceity
[> [> I almost forgot... -- Haecceity, 13:17:19 03/18/03 Tue

Genre-busting. Name another show (besides Angel, of course) that combines so many genres and uses those combinations to point out the values/failings of each in turn. In combining genres, ME forces us to look at what a genre is, what we need from it, and why genre exists at all. Have you read John Fiske's work on genre? Very interesting and possibly useful for this.

---Haecceity

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