March 2003 posts
The Lines Converging Where You Stand - Thoughts On *Get It Done* ~Part I~ -- OnM & Solitude1056, 16:29:41 03/09/03 Sun
The Lines Converging Where You Stand
Thoughts On *Get It Done*
A Very Special OnM/Solitude1056 Non-Holiday Review
Ce n'est pas de votre process. (That does not concern your trial.)
--- Recurring statement by Jehanne D'arc during her heresy trial, in response to questions she considered irrelevant.
The path you tread is narrow / And the drop is sheer and very high
The ravens all are watching / From a vantage point nearby
Apprehension creeping / Like a tube train up your spine
Will the tightrope reach the end / Will the final couplet rhyme
And it's high time Cymbaline
It's high time Cymbaline
Please wake me
A butterfly with broken wings / Is falling by your side
The ravens all are closing in / There's nowhere you can hide
Your manager and agent / Are both busy on the phone
Selling coloured photographs / To magazines back home
And it's high time Cymbaline
It's high time Cymbaline
Please wake me
The lines converging where you stand / They must have moved the picture plane
The leaves are heavy round your feet / You hear the thunder of the train
Suddenly it strikes you / That they're moving into range
And Doctor Strange / Is always changing size
And it's high time Cymbaline
It's high time Cymbaline
Please wake me
--- Pink Floyd
She was left behind, and sour / And she wrote to me, equally dour
She said : "In the days when you were / hopelessly poor / I just liked you more..."
--- The Smiths
It's pretty amazing how entire meanings can hinge on a single word, or not even a word - just an impression left by a passing thought. While it never occurred to me, apparently thousands of people wondered whether or not Jimi Hendrix was gay, based on his famous line, " 'scuse me, while I kiss this guy." Now, while doing the usual weekly free-association thing I tend to do as preparation for this ramble, I latched onto the old Pink Floyd (actually Roger Waters-penned) tune reprinted above, and went to seek out the lyrics on the 'net. Much to my surprise, I discovered that I was in error all these years in thinking that the line:
And Doctor Strange / Is always changing sides
was in reality:
And Doctor Strange / Is always changing size
Whoa. I was so sure that I was right, that I googled several other Floyd sites, and looked up the same tune. Nope, every damn one of them proclaimed that it was 'size', not 'sides'. And the meaning is very kinda different, isn't it?
For the benefit of those who are as Strange-deprived as was I, herewith find ye a very brief synopsis from one of the many Strange websites:
Once he was a man like most others - a worldly man, seduced and jaded by material things. But then, when a tragic accident deprived him of his surgical skills, Stephen Strange discovered a separate reality, a higher plane of occult forces in eternal conflict. Vowing to be Earth's first line of defense against magical menace, the erstwhile physician became Earth's foremost Master of the Mystic Arts!
Gee. Kinda sounds like Willow, doesn't it? Maybe some day, if she survives this year's apocalypse.
Once she was a girl like many others - a geeky girl, seduced and jaded by techno-dweeby things. But then, when a tragic incident deprived her of her certainty as to the true nature of the world, Willow Rosenberg discovered a separate reality, a higher plane of occult forces in eternal conflict. Vowing to be Earth's first second line of defense against magical menace, the erstwhile hacker became Earth's foremost Master Mistress of the Mystic Arts!
Anywho, I reckon that if I had known more about Dr. Strange, I might have heard the line correctly, but while I did do the comic book thing in my youth, I did not follow the adventures of this particular character. This may have had to do with the fact that my local newsstand carried almost exclusively DC Comics, not Marvel, or naturally it might have just been fate, whatever. So I knew that Strange was a comic book character, but nothing else about him. It seemed both reasonable and even intriguing to me that he might be the kind of hero or anti-hero that could 'change sides'. You know, back and forth, good or evil, blurring the lines, making with the gray and all, like Spike - or Buffy.
But it's 'size'. Now I have to think too much all over again. Damn.
Solitude 1056: Uh, hello? Can another Evil get a word in edgewise around here?
OnM: Huh? Oh, hi Sol! How ya been?
Sol 1056: Overstudied mostly, but bored now. Ever thought of doing a co-review of an episode with another ATPo poster? 'Cos I'm in the mood, and this episode is one that's got lots of issues.
OnM: A co-written review? You and I? You actually think that my enormous ego would permit such an action?
Sol 1056: What enormous ego?
OnM: Oh, right. That's another project to get finished someday, kinda like the kitchen remodeling I started on 25 years ago and still didn't ever get more than 5% done with. Cool! Let's do it! By the way, you like Floyd?
Sol 1056: Uh, those are the guys who did 'Touch of Grey', right? (waits for OnM to stop sputtering) Yup, I do, and they're not as before my time as you might've thought. But any review I'm in will need a few more quotes. (gestures oddly and incants in HTML)
OnM: Hey! Where's my asterisks?
Sol 1056: They're on vacation. Horizontal lines rule this week.
OnM: Geez... now even my asterisks get more vacation than I do. (sighs) Nice quotes though. I bet they'll even become relevant eventually, in true Slaughterhouse Five time-wonky fashion!
Sol 1056: Of course. The power of the First will pale before our mighty Ctrl-X and Ctrl-V, because if you're evil and you know it, quote something.
OnM: Second that. So shall we start out on a cranky note? That might be different, since I'm generally not very cranky regarding the Buffyverse. I tend to reserve my cantankerous outbursts for-- well, actually, pretty much anything else in the known universe.
Sol 1056: I'll do the honors. I'm generally cantankerous. Let me get this out of the way, then. First, I couldn't stand the backyard scene, a la Mulan, of fifteen or so fighting potentials. Where were these girls last week? How did they all fit in the same car to go to the desert, the week before? Were we really supposed to believe that the three potentials we saw last week were the only ones "around" while these ten others were hiding-- where? This is the sort of continuity that isn't.
OnM: This is a good point, but I must confess it doesn't bother me all that much, either then or now. Perhaps Giles took the girls on their vision quests in several groups, since they couldn't all fit in the car at once. If so, maybe the three protos we saw last week were the only ones around. Or maybe Kennedy had them off somewhere else for the physical training stuff, running through the Sunnydale woods or something, practicing jumping out from behind trees and attacking other protos, you know. Or maybe Giles traveled around and collected a whole bunch of them, and only brought them into the house within the last week or weeks. I think it is a mistake to ascribe a linear flow of time to what we see happening, and that's not even taking into consideration the general wonkiness of time we've seen this season. It may be one week for us, but two or three weeks in the Buffyverse.
Sol 1056: Then there are Buffy's harsh words to Spike, Willow, Anya, Xander, and the rest of the crew. Most noticeably, Buffy asks Anya why she's around, what she does to help, which seemed to me to a rather obtuse question. Anya has the "been there/ seen/ done that" voice to balance Dawn's more recent introduction to the occult. Second, as another poster mentioned, Anya's history as a vengeance demon and her subsequent isolation from humanity is something that seems to have created an understanding between herself and Buffy, if not necessarily a friendship. Although knowledgeable audience members are aware of these functions, Anya mentions neither. I was fully expecting Anya to say, "Because I am a walking encyclopedia of trivia about nearly every big bad (excepting Glory) for the past four years." So, Anya failing to mention even her remotest form of value to the Scoobies seems conspicuous by its absence.
OnM: I have to admit that Dawn's ever-so-cool "Are you helping??" dig at Anya was one of my very favorite moments in the show. And before that, I enjoyed the same basic challenge from Buffy also directed at Anya - for me, it is one of those elephant-in-the-middle-of-the-room things that had to come up sooner or later. Anya has been pretty withdrawn and cranky since her actions in Selfless, and she really hasn't been all that helpful to the gang since then. I thought that I had essentially figured out the dynamic here, between Anya and Buffy and Anya and the gang, but then last night I read what jenoff had to say about it, and now I'm wondering anew. Here's what he had to say (underlines mine):
It's interesting that Anya is the one most stung by Buffy's criticism. Is it because she genuinely feels worthless? She no longer has her demon powers and her knowledge is dwarfed by Willow's and even Dawn is proving to be her equal. Is it because she gave up a demonic immortality to be on the side of good and feels that sacrifice is ignored? Or is this merely misdirected anger? Is she really upset because having been rejected by Xander as a wife she is now being rejected by Spike as a lover and both of them remain devoted to Buffy. You have to wonder whether the increasingly angry and bitter Anya might not try to cut a deal with D'Hoffryn and FE and betray Buffy.
--- jenoff ( 02/22/2003 )
OnM: I had based most of my own assumptions on the 'feeling of worthlessness' idea. Anya feels that she has nothing significant to contribute to the group since she surrendered her demon powers, and has not been able to fully resolve the contradictions involved in doing so in her mind. On the one hand, Anya apparently didn't blame Buffy for 'doing her job' when Buffy tried to kill her after slaughtering the college guys. Also, she had to feel that Buffy would have succeeded had not Xander and Willow intervened - I am pretty sure that what she felt back then was a genuine death wish, but maintaining what was left of her pride meant that she would have to go down fighting, and make it a damn good fight if she could. If you are a demon who is going to die, being killed in battle by none other than The Slayer Herself would act to confer a certain degree of honor and respect in the demon community.
On the other hand, Anya is now human, and lives on - by her own choice. Is jenoff right in that what she feels to be her 'sacrifice' has been ignored? Xander has been supportive, but Buffy seems to have taken the same tack she did with Spike right after he regained his soul - seeing it as a positive step, but now, what are you going to do with this change? Is this just a gesture, or will this be a work 'in progress'? Spike has been steadily making forward progress, Anya has been coasting. And Anya is very smart, I have to believe that she feels this to be the case, even if she is reluctant to acknowledge it consciously. The ongoing tension between the static/progress situation reveals itself in other ways, such as her fussing over Xander's safety while in the next breath wishing him death or suffering.
I do not agree with jenoff that Anya might betray Buffy, although like with Xander, she might fantasize about it. In fact, I think that if any of the Scooby Gang were to snuff it this season, the victim might very well be Anya. Personally, I hope not, but I can see it. I think that Anya needs to find the strength to do what I think she really wants to do, which is forgive Xander and get back together with him. I have no doubt that Xander would jump at the chance; he has obviously never fallen out of love with Anya, he just allowed his fears to get the better of himself, and at a point in time that could not possibly have been worse. While Xander clearly wronged her, Anya knows very well that when final push came to shove, it was Xander (and, perversely, Willow - who has never been fond of Anya) who came to save her from the point of Buffy's sword, and that he did so out of love for her.
I think that the half-hearted attempt at 'seducing' Spike is another expression of this desire. Anya is seeking emotional solace through sexual relations, but refuses to approach the person she truthfully wants to have those relations with. She longs for that moment of 'contact' she had in their brief previous tryst, even thought she must know that it can't ever be the same again. Spike is a substitute, but he's not playing along, so the attempt doesn't work anyway. Hell, he won't even kill a demon for her!
Sol 1056: Originally, of course, Buffy had insisted Anya stick around so Buffy & Co. could help defend Anya from D'Hoffryn's gifts. The odd thing is that D'Hoffryn emphasized going for the pain, not the kill. This would imply he'd lean more towards letting Anya live with the price of her freedom rather than release her through death. We've not seen Anya attacked for several episodes, but the issue was raised again this episode. D'Hoffryn's last words to Anya were along the lines that he saw no reason to kill her - "all things in good time," or some such. After all, he told her, "from beneath you, it devours." The implication seems to be that D'Hoffryn saw no reason to waste the time, because the season's Big Bad would do the work for him. So what changed D'Hoffryn's mind?
OnM: I have to believe that this isn't an oversight, because it has happened twice now, the first time in the episode right after Selfless. Buffy saved Anya from a demon attack in Anya's apartment, and the same question was raised then - Why would D'Hoffryn make the effort, why not wait for the Big Bad to off her?
There are two possibilities that I could envision. First, D'Hoffryn seems pretty well 'connected' (and I suspect in more ways than merely knowing other important demon folks) in the demon world. He may even have access to oracles that can predict the future, and those oracles may envision a projection that Buffy will triumph over the FE. D'Hoffryn, despite his 'pointed' comments about Buffy, must have substantial respect for her abilities as Slayer. He also knows how powerful Willow is, and respects her also. If D'Hoffryn thinks that Buffy Inc. may be going to beat the Big Bad, despite all normal portents to the contrary, he might decide to hedge his bets by allowing demons to attack Anya.
Second, it may just be that D'Hoffryn is merely a resentful little pimp and doesn't so much intend to outright kill Anya as to periodically terrorize her. He must know that the Buffy and the gang will defend and protect Anya after going to all the trouble to save her during the events of Selfless, but that doesn't stop him from having a little 'fun' at her expense. Or maybe he secretly doesn't like these particular demon guys, and sends them to terrorize Anya, knowing that it's 95% likely they won't survive the attempt - two birds with one demon, eh? It would be a win-win scenario for D'Hoffryn.
Sol 1056: Thing is, I just don't see D'Hoffryn changing his mind for any of those reasons, and part of that is because the distance between one comment and the other is too close. But there's two options here, really.
One, ME still has some abilities to write a subtle and complex end-of-the-year last-five-episodes, even if they did lose a potential and just hope we didn't notice (the week Chloe was gone). Or, if they're getting lazy enough to just assume that we, the ever-obsessed viewers, are getting soft in the head and wouldn't notice, then they might be lazy enough to squeeze three issues too close together but remain ignorant of the impact.
Buffy challenges Anya within a few scenes Anya being attacked, for the first time in four or five episodes. And the demon mentions D'Hoffryn, so we're supposed to think D'Hoffryn did change his mind. I figure it's possible, if we take the 'ME is lazy' line of thinking, that their justification is that D'Hoffryn wants Anya gone, as she represents his tender loving care for wayward/former demons. (Remembering Hallie, who commented that what's coming makes all the really bad things run for cover; D'Hoffryn could be argued as hedging his bets by having all outstanding debts called in.)
But the problem is that having the two instances - the challenge, and the attempt - followed up by Willow's use of Anya during the spell - make me think that Anya is in danger because she knows something. Perhaps she remembers something, or has a way to weasel herself in with someone who does (like she did for the visit with Eyeball Guy), or there's a quality about former vengeance demons we're not aware of yet. Whatever it is, the implication to me is that Anya may end up playing a very large role in what's to come, but I'm not certain it'll be one she'll live through.
OnM: It would seem to me that the simple fact that Anya has lived for over 1100 years means that she has a lot of potentially useful knowledge stored away, she just needs the right opportunity to utilize it. There has certainly been precedence for this - In the S5 endgame, it was Anya who suggested using the enchanted troll hammer against Glory. (Wasn't it Giles who was bitching about Anya's questionable usefulness then?) Back in S3, it was Anya who gave the Scoobies the first real clue as to what The Ascension was all about, with the Mayor turning into a full demon and all. (I also just noticed that these two incidences were approx. two years apart, and now here we are in S7).
D'Hoffryn may have initially assumed that Anya would slink off into the background and/or disappear, but when she didn't (or when Buffy offered to protect her?) he had second thoughts about waiting for the Big Bad to take her out. For the moment though, my preferred theory is still the one about prophecy, and the possibility that Buffy will beat the apocalyptic odds yet again. I don't think D'Hoffryn wants Anya to keep on living a full lifetime. Also you mentioned that "there's a quality about former vengeance demons we're not aware of yet". Have there ever been any former vengeance demons? Is Anya's situation unique?
Sol 1056: I was going to say a former vengeance demon is as unique as a vampire with a soul, but we know how long that one lasted. Ah, ATLtS.
Of course, the return of the infamous leather coat doesn't, IMO, necessarily indicate the return of Spike in all his badness. The hint, to me, was that the choreography (and the stunt double) are better than the fight we got, so obviously the coat alone won't do the trick. The Williamized-Spike still got a good thrashing before rallying in the fourth round for a simple neck-twist. In other words, the coat may have been a token for Spike, of what-it-means-to-be-Spike, and it may've acted as a nice underline for Wood's growing attention to Spike... but it certainly did not bring back a Spike who could kick major booty without flinching. Spike accepted, intellectually, that he needs to integrate demon and soul, but I don't think he's accepted it emotionally. His words - and preliminary actions - said yes, but when the chips were down, during the fight, his actions showed how far he has to go.
OnM: Yeah, I think this is one of the two biggest subjects for debate that this episode will engender among the fans. People who have longed for the return of the old, snarky, violent Spike will be delighted, but I think that that Spike is gone forever, short of losing his soul again. Even then, I don't know. Demon Spike is nothing like Angelus; even though he's capable of great violence, the degree of evil doesn't seem the same, as are the intentions behind that violence. Demon Spike fell in love with Buffy, and eventually sought out a soul to try to get her love in return. I can never imagine Angelus even thinking about this possibility.
The coat is acting as a symbolic token, I agree, but I also think that the time will come, and perhaps very soon, that Spike will have to make a decision about what to do with it. Right now, it may be a necessary crutch to regain the use of violence that William renounces, because that is what the moment's needs demand, but you are right, Spike will have to integrate his disparate personalities, just as Buffy (and Willow) have done, or are doing. At some point, he will both need and want to give the coat up, and then he will be able to move on.
Before knowing about Wood being Nikki's son, I wrote a micro-fanfic about Spike giving the coat to Buffy. Since the coat belonged to a Slayer, it would only seem right to return it to one. (In the fic, Buffy considers the 'gift', then hands it over to Faith, who puts it on and finds it fits perfectly. They both stride off into the sunset or whatever, and Spike looks on, not sure whether to be dismayed or pleased). But now that Wood is in the mix, it seems only logical that Spike will return the coat to Wood. What will happen after that depends largely on the intent of Spike when he hands it over (does he feel pressured to do so, or is he genuinely contrite?) and the willingness of Wood to accept what amounts to an apology of sorts from Spike. In Wood's current state of mind, I don't think he would accept it gracefully.
Sol 1056: The jury is still out on Wood's state of mind, since it seems that right now he's back to doing what he does best. Watching and saying little, that is. Whether he's collecting information for the First, plotting an ambush on Spike, or just trying to process a Slayer's clear affection and respect for an otherwise legendary Nasty is hard to say. At the same time, I'm not certain Spike would necessarily think to give up the coat. But if we want to track that plot point, I think the writers gave us a huge set of anvil hints back in Him. I wouldn't have drawn the correlation until this episode, however.
Young man with unlimited capital. No, wait, wrong story. Young man with some potential, otherwise forgettable, tries to get himself a reputation. His reward for the first Slayer's death is affirmation of Drusilla's love; the second Slayer's death brings him a nifty leather jacket. Stretching the analogy to that of 'marginally noticeable before token, impossible to ignore afterwards,' Spike's jacket has a rough connection to what's-his-face in Him, or at least it does in Spike's mind.
With the jacket, Spike is Big Bad: irrepressible, incorrigible, and irresistible to a certain Slayer. Losing that jacket means losing the security blanket, the pseudo-source of his attractiveness. If ever there was confirmation of this, it was when Buffy told Spike outright that she wanted him to be that Big Bad. And there's also the minor detail that she's not been attracted to him since he left The Jacket behind; the AR-in-SR would be a major part of this, of course, but too much emphasis on that reduces the analogy too much. Suffice it to say, I think Him might contain some template-nuggets for how Spike will roll out in the last six episodes.
OnM: One note here - I'm not sure if Buffy was telling Spike that he should become the 'Big Bad' again. The word she used was 'dangerous'. You can be dangerous without being evil.
Sol 1056: Oh right, my little bad, but I think the connections between Him and Spike still stand, for the most part. Meanwhile, I'm doing my best to avoid the discussion that floated across the boards within an hour of the broadcast - how did Spike's jacket get from Buffy's staircase newel to a box in the school basement? Continuity, people, I can only rationalize so much!
But even bad continuity isn't as bad as the highly deus ex machina of Wood just happening to still have his mother's "slayer bag," which her watcher just happened to never return to the council. What lucky coincidence that it appears right as it's needed, but I suppose we can overlook that as much as we overlooked all the times ancient relics just happened to be buried in Sunnydale crypts.
OnM: As you know, I typically take a very generous ignore-and-let-live approach to plot-holes such as this one, but if I had to pick anything from this episode to really groan at, it would be Nikki's 'emergency kit' and it's waayyyyyy-all-too-convenient appearance at just the right time. The PTB stepping in again? I dunno. I agree that I do not understand why the bag would not have been passed on to the next Slayer, unless it was Nikki's Watcher that kept it for sentimental reasons, and told the Council that it had been lost or destroyed. Perhaps the Watcher had developed a strong maternal/paternal attachment to Nikki (or perhaps was even the father to Nikki's child?) and clung to it for that reason, later passing it on to the son. I would be very happy to hear this addressed in a future episode, best of all if one of the characters (such as Giles, who was absent this episode) would directly question Wood about it.
Sol 1056: We can only hope - if ME hasn't gotten lazy on us, we just might luck out.
On to other issues... Remember Dragonslayer? We got yer standard issue (non) virgin in chains, set out as sacrifice to keep the local beastie happy. For all its traditional elements - from the Greek myths through the Celtic legends - this version didn't jive. The problem wasn't Buffy's denial of the Shadowmen's offering, it was her justification for the denial.
Buffy's lecture against the Shadowmen of "you're just guys!" was the wrong note, to me. It's all well and good to argue that the demon-heart was a type of rape. The shadow-play was a fairy tale note, which suggested to me that Buffy was interacting with shadows of men-who-once-were, not sentient beings who have kept track of Super Bowl victories and Slayer histories. They gave Buffy a title, but otherwise it's possibly the same rigmarole offered to any other Slayer coming down the pike. In that case, it seemed sensible they're reenacting a scenario, even if it was badly out of date by our standards, designed for an ignorant girl of 15 in backwoods Africa. California girls, by my experience, don't usually break out the bondage gear on the first date.
My point is, Buffy's argument against the Shadowmen sounded dangerously close to an old-school feminist diatribe. "You're just guys! What do you know?" I can see the issue of the demon-heart being an uninvited thing, but my take on the Whedonverse has been that he's advocating characters who incorporate both traditional feminine as well as traditional masculine, equally, in every character regardless of gender. Buffy's strength is often because she creates a new way of seeing things, one that the (masculinized) female characters, and the (feminized) male characters, can't see. This integrated viewpoint is in direct contradiction to her arguments labeling the Shadowmen as male and ignorant. I expected Buffy, with her male/female ideals, to see a third option. Accept the demon-heart as helpless victim; fight back and refuse the demon-heart. What's the third option? What if the issue isn't using evil to fight evil, but the integration of the two opposites, much as Buffy has integrated opposites elsewhere?
~ ~ ~ ( Continued in Part II ) ~ ~ ~
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The Lines Converging Where You Stand - Thoughts On *Get It Done* ~Part II~ -- The Misspelled Buddhist & the Premature Norman, 16:32:04 03/09/03 Sun
~ ~ ~ ( Continued from Part I ) ~ ~ ~
OnM: As to the feminist take on the demon possession/rape/violation, I saw this exactly the same way that you did, but I have come to identify Buffy's spoken comments with the degree of SlayerBuffy or HumanBuffy that is present at the moment. I think the SlayerBuffy persona is far more reactionary and/or conservative and so would naturally over-simplify matters to "You all are just men!" (The same with the funny, but just as reactionary "It's always a staff!" quip.)
I believe that this tracks if you think about it - look at the way she treats the potentials and the Scoobies after burying Chloe. When she is filling the soil back in the grave, is it mostly Human/Buffy present, and she is obviously near tears with grief, while her anger at herself is another thing she's trying to bury. Buffy feels that she has failed again, that someone has died because she didn't interpret the prophetic dream correctly, or was too wrapped up in other things. The desperate anger has to go somewhere, and so when she returns to the house and finds all the others weeping and desolate, it explodes out from within her. SlayerBuffy takes control, and the harshness follows, and stays with her until the portal adventure concludes and she starts to confide her fears to Willow.
Sol 1056: But I think it's still an issue of integration. If she's coming back with a reactionary contempt of the situation, and having second thoughts later, this tells me that she's not managing the very thing she's asking Willow and Spike to do - that is, get over their fear of their dark sides and use all their power, not just the 'good' parts. A constant theme has been that Buffy refuses to acknowledge the dark or even just gray parts of her power. This could be part of her own empowerment, turning the source to work for her own purposes, but if, given Buffy's mantra that only evil comes from evil, she were to acknowledge upfront that her power is rooted in darkness/evil/demon, then she'd have to soberly recognize that she is living proof her own mantra is false. For seven years now, Buffy would have been bringing about Good despite having a power rooted in/created from darkness.
The portal adventure, coming on the tails of her attacks against Spike, Willow, and the rest of the gang, may also contain ironic notes of countering Buffy's self-deluded smugness about the source of her own power. I see what you mean about the timing - Buffy, frustrated, reacting angrily to a house of sniffling potentials feeling sorry for themselves... But there's also a note, I felt, of Buffy circling onto Spike and Willow in particular as two people who've balked at using their power because of the dark and scary things in there. "Get on with it," she seems to be saying between the lines, "and get over your fears." The implication is that Buffy has gotten over hers, but her emotions post-Shadowmen may also be the fearful realization that her own power is equally dark, and the hints over the past four years weren't just comments to unnerve her. I think in some ways, Buffy's acknowledgement to Willow is a sideways attempt to apologize for her prior superior attitude, and her attack against Willow and Spike.
OnM: This is a real hair-splitting bit, I admit right up front, but I'm not sure that saying that Buffy refuses to acknowledge the dark parts of her power is quite it. I think that Buffy feared in her heart of hearts that her powers are rooted in darkness, somehow related to demons. Dracula stated as much, so it isn't like she wasn't introduced to the possibility some time ago, but until the interaction with the Shadowmen, she didn't have actual proof. Dracula could have been lying, and indeed when Buffy tasted his blood, Drac's predicted result did not occur - Buffy came out from under his 'thrall' and even felt energized, like her old Slayer-self again. She could reasonably read this result as proof in the direction of Drac jiving her. At the time she goes through the portal, she still does not have confirmation, so to her own internal perceptions she is still the same as Willow and (souled) Spike - a human with a strong dark side, but possessed of free will, able to make a choice to channel the darkness for good. Afterwards, she has to deal with the reality that some part of her is literally demonic in origin. Considering how great this fear was, I think she's handling it pretty damn well.
Sol 1056: That's what I was saying - what she's feared, has been confirmed. Until now, she could say Dracula's take on Slayer origins was as much sound and fury as any of the rest of his 'gypsy' tricks. The same goes for the questionable source of the Primitive herself, back in Restless. Both sources could be written off as possibly tainted by their own dubious intentions. The time spent with the Shadowmen confirmed everything.
OnM: I completely agree about the irony, though. I do think that is a large part of what the writers intended to convey in this episode. We are meant to see Buffy's 'attack' on Willow and Spike (and even Anya) as being a pot-kettle-black kinda deal.
I think that of all the people present when this happens, only Spike really gets it at first, understands why she is attacking, even understands why she is attacking him. Spike is a passionate individual, as is Buffy, and Spike comprehends the source of Buffy's anger, and why she is behaving this way. Willow understands also, although I would guess she took a little more time to think about it, while Spike got hip almost immediately. Spike needed the crutch of his leather duster, Willow needed the crutch of support from Dawn and eventually Anya and Kennedy to get the courage to work her portal mojo, but they both ultimately rose to the occasion.
Sol 1056: Odd that you saw Willow needed Dawn's support - I saw Dawn's support as effectively ending once she opened the portal. While I still don't know where Giles was (more characters that just come and go without explanation or reason), it seemed quite apt that once again, we have Dawn opening an event (the first portal) - and someone else, with no small effort, closing the event (the return portal). In that sense, it's poetic that Dawn wasn't called on for a little extra boost. It's also poetic, of course, after Kennedy pushed Willow awfully hard to 'use' her power, that Kennedy is one of the two drained by Willow.
OnM: By the way, what are you thinking about Kennedy now, as of the end of Get It Done?
Sol 1056: I'll work my way backwards. Concerning Kennedy's part in the portal opening/closing bit, I was under the impression that it was a mostly group effort... mostly. Dawn got the portal open, Buffy went through, Spike went after the demon, Anya clarified the means to 'create' a portal opening from scratch, Willow performed the ritual, and didn't Xander volunteer to fix the window and ceiling/floor when the dust settled? Given all that, it seems Kennedy actually did the least, but seems to be sulking the most. I had less sympathy for her at that point than any other - she's a potential, reputedly with a bit more strength (and a great deal more training) than the average Joe, and yet she's sulking. Anya, I'd guess, probably picked her own self up off the floor, shook herself hard, grumbled for a few and got back to research without much more ado.
As other posters observed, Kennedy bullies the other potentials - even though she'd never fought a vampire prior to a week or so ago (and she shared the credit with three other girls). She stands up for Willow but does so by crossing the acknowledged leader of the group. Kennedy gets minor points for keeping her loyalty undivided, but it wasn't Willow that saved them all from the Turok-Han, it was Buffy. Pissing off Buffy wouldn't be on my recommended list of daily minerals and vitamins.
OnM: (laughing) Yeah, I'd go along with that. I've been searching for the right word to describe Kennedy's general attitude to date, and I think it was jenoff who finally nailed it for me when he described her as not so much strong as opinionated. Whether the writers intended this attitude as a reflection of Kennedy's reputed upper-class/wealthy background, I can't say for sure, but it's possible. She may be used to simply demanding things and getting them, and her class heritage likely leaves her perfectly willing to overtly challenge pretty much anyone. She probably sees herself as a 'natural leader,' and expects the perks that she thinks automatically come along with that title.
Sol 1056: In some ways, I disliked Kennedy for the fact that the end of the episode showed her as transparently self-serving. No doubt her sexual preferences are as they are, but it seems awfully convenient that the second-most powerful Scoobie, Willow, just happens to share the same preferences. Kennedy pushes and shoves, with a bit of weaseling thrown in, and ends up cozy with Willow. The next episode or so, all we see is Willow sitting in throne-like chairs, with Kennedy draped across the back of the chair or sitting on the arm. Even when the rest of the potentials are sent upstairs, Kennedy stays downstairs with the adults; she also ends up in charge of the rest of the potentials when the adults are away. She has, effectively, slept her way up the food chain.
OnM: Oooh, good call on the 'throne-like' chairs and the 'drapery'! I didn't notice that on my various viewings of the episode, but mentally flashing back on them, you're absolutely right! I'm not sure if she's 'slept her way up the food chain', though.
Sol 1056: Do you really think she would've automatically gotten to be the drill sergeant over the other potentials, if not for the fact that she's sleeping with one of Buffy's lieutenants?
OnM: She is the oldest of the potentials, and seems to have the most drive and aggressive tendencies. This might make her the 'natural' choice. And wouldn't Buffy have been the one to make that choice? Kennedy might have volunteered (very likely), or Willow may have suggested her for the role (possible), but wouldn't the final say be Buffy's?
Sol 1056: If this were true, then I would've expected to see Kennedy slowly moving into that sort of role prior to this episode; I would've expected some type of evolution of responsibility. Instead, Buffy, Spike, and sometimes Giles are the ones taking on the teacher roles with the proto-slayers. No, I think it's very specific that Kennedy achieved the responsibility only after achieving intimacy with Willow.
And in return for the attention, adoration, and cozying, she's expecting to be protected. Kennedy flatters Willow by casting Willow as more powerful than Buffy; she endangers herself in general by stepping between Buffy and Willow, who both swim in old-history currents that Kennedy barely understands. Her position behind Willow isn't just as Willow's personal bodyguard, but as perhaps could be read in the sense of "the power behind the throne." Tara was Willow's equal, but we rarely saw either standing behind the other as often as Kennedy is shown standing behind Willow. While I doubt Kennedy is the true muscle driving Willow's power, I suspect the choreography is to demonstrate this is how Kennedy would like to be seen, how she would like it to be: I am the lover of the most powerful Wicca in the western hemisphere, so by proxy I must be powerful, too. I am powerful because the most powerful Wicca in the western hemisphere asks what I think about stuff. Etc, etc, and so on.
In fact, I suspect this is exactly why Kennedy was one-half of the outlet Willow used to reopen the portal. In comparison to Anya, who has no ready explanation for her presence other than possibly the fact that she's not up for dying quite yet... we have Kennedy, Anya's opposite, who's cocky, and feels little obligation to Buffy because hey, Kennedy's got Willow, who's way stronger than Buffy any day, right? The too-low Anya is contrasted with the too-high Kennedy, thus Kennedy's comeuppance at the end, realizing Willow won't or can't protect her, is additionally reflected by Anya's non-surprise at Willow's action. We don't see Anya's reaction, but it's noticeable by its absence.
OnM: Anya wouldn't have been surprised; she knows only too well the true nature of Willow's power. I can very well see it as you described, with Anya picking herself up and just moving on, since after all she suffered a great deal more during Willow's vengeful rage-fest at the end of last season. Also, to her credit, she didn't particularly sulk about it then either.
Kennedy wanted to get closer to Willow's power but really had no understanding of that power, even though Willow tried very hard to get it across to her. Power is power, right? Her success in freeing Willow from Amy's hex may have even convinced her that she had 'this magic thing figured out' - didn't she say words to that effect? Kennedy has just discovered that 'fairy tales' get pretty damn dark sometimes, and this time the darkness reached out and more than touched her.
And speaking of the darkness reaching out, we have the wonderfully titled 'Shadowmen'. I freely admit that this whole section of the show - from the opening of the 'emergency kit' through the great special effects of the shadow puppets, to Buffy diving through the portal and ending up in the 'Restless' desert, her meeting with the Shadowmen, the demon spirit, the whole sequence etc. etc. - is now one of my all time favorites of the entire series. Like many fans, I've waited a long time to see the true story of the creation of the first Slayer revealed, and to see Buffy's reaction to it. The writers and the production team were just firing on all cylinders here. The sequence is both visually powerful in the cinematic sense, and powerfully ambiguous in the metaphorical sense.
Sol 1056: You know how the Shadowmen said it was a demon's heart that provided the Slayer's power? I was just thinking about Buffy and the possibility that she still has to integrate the Slayer/Human sides, and I harked back to the whole demon heart bit about the misty looking stuff in the cave. Why a demon heart? Why not a demon power? What's the deal with heart? Could it be part of what's going to make it 'be enough' to defeat the First Evil? Whose heart, and which demon?
OnM: I seem to recall that the word first mentioned was 'spirit', not heart - that came afterward in the sequence of descriptive terms the Shadowmen used. By good fortune, the shooting script is now available for this episode, so here's the sequence as originally planned by the writer. You'll note that it was shortened somewhat for the actual shoot, and that some of the production notes tend to cast a slightly different light on the aims of the Shadowmen. In the shooting script version, the Shadowmen don't seem as dark in their intentions as the aired version suggested. It was more like they just had no other alternative available to them, and that this was the only way to defeat the demons that were trying to destroy the humans of that time, and since. I've deleted the overlapping non-Buffy scenes so that we stay in Buffy's POV in the desert/shadow dimension.
SHADOWMAN 1:
We have been here since the beginning.
SHADOWMAN 2:
Now, we are almost at the end.
BUFFY:
.... End of what?
SHADOWMAN 3:
You are the Hellmouth's last Guardian.
BUFFY:
Latest. You mean "latest" guardian.
SHADOWMAN 1:
No.
BUFFY:
Look - I got a First to fight.
You three have clearly had some time on your hands.
Tell me what I need to know. I came to learn.
SHADOWMAN 1:
We cannot give you knowledge. Only power.
BUFFY:
Okay, know what I think? I'm not really here at all.
None of this is actually happening, this is like a play,
like a shadow play, like a non-reality re-enactment hologrammy...
WHACK! Buffy's theorizing gets cut short as one of the Shadow Men raises a quarterstaff up behind her and sharply knocks her unconscious with one blow. She crumples to the ground. Without another word, the Shadow Men lift [and] drag Buffy away, resuming their chant, toward a distant cave...
INT. CAVE - DAY:
Buffy sits slumped against a wall, head bowed, unconscious. Slowly she lifts her head, looks around to see: (...) the Shadow Men stand[ing] before her, impassive in their cowls, just watching. Buffy stands. Walks toward them - then stops - realizing she is chained to the wall.
BUFFY:
What is this?
SHADOWMAN 1:
We are at the beginning.
SHADOWMAN 2:
The source of your strength. The well of the Slayer's power.
SHADOWMAN 3:
This is why we have brought you here.
BUFFY:
I thought I brought me here.
The three men say nothing. Then, they pound their staffs into the ground, rhythmically, in unison, throughout the following.
BUFFY:
Listen to me. I'm already the Slayer. Bursting with power - don't need more, thanks.
You're wasting time! I'm here to learn - I need to know how to fight The First.
SHADOWMAN 1:
The first Slayer - did not talk so much.
We see a fuller picture of this cave space. It is a ritual chamber, its floor painted with an ornate, swirling symbol. The Shadow Men chant as one of them steps forward holding a small, wooden box. He places it on the floor, in the center of the painted symbol, and opens the box. All three Shadow Men step away, and stand like guards, holding their staffs.
SHADOWMAN 1:
Herein lies your truest strength.
SHADOWMAN 2:
The energy of the Demon. Its spirit.
SHADOWMAN 3:
Its heart.
BUFFY:
This is how you...
SHADOWMAN 1:
...Created the Slayer? Yes.
BUFFY:
(softly)
Bastards...
SHADOWMAN 1:
This is how we did so then.
How we will do so now.
And slowly, a mist begins to rise from the open box...
SHADOWMAN 2:
This is how it must be.
The mist keeps rising, growing fuller, taking shape...
SHADOWMAN 1:
It must become one with you.
BUFFY:
I get a say in this and I'm saying no...
SHADOWMAN 3:
Merge, live, and grow inside you.
BUFFY:
No!
SHADOWMAN 1:
This is how it was then. How it must be now.
SHADOWMAN 2: This is all there is.
They keep pounding their staffs. Buffy pulls at her chains. The mist begins to swirl, rise high above the floor, and almost like a sentient creature sniffing out its prey, slowly circles the ritual chamber. Then [it] 'sees' Buffy. And strikes. Energies stream inside her eyes, mouth, nose - Buffy throws her head back and screams. And as her screams fill the chamber, the Shadow Men watch, impassive as statues.
Buffy violently shakes her head, sending the mist out of her. She backs up a step and braces herself, standing alone in the center of the Ritual Chamber as the dark mist rises, swirls about her, stalking her. Buffy keeps an eye on the mist as it circles round her, bracing herself, trying to get in some kind of defensive position, but the chains, rattling, hamper her movements. And just as she gets distracted by the chains, the Dark Mist strikes - diving right at her, fanning out her clothes, blowing her hair wild, going up her skirt... Buffy screams in agony and the Dark Mist disperses all around her. Re-coagulates, and takes its form again, still stalking.
BUFFY:
Make this stop.
SHADOWMAN 1:
This is what you came for.
BUFFY:
You got the wrong Slayer.
I'm not the first one.
SHADOWMAN 1:
We know.
SHADOWMAN 2:
She begged for us to stop.
SHADOWMAN 3:
We did not then. We will not now.
The Dark Mist dives again. Buffy rolls out of its path, it swoops by her and rises for another run. Buffy rushes to the Shadow Men, but her chains restrain her.
BUFFY:
How many times I have to tell you?
I'm already the Slayer!
She keeps playing defense with the mist as she talks.
SHADOWMAN 1:
You came to us for help. Do not fight this.
SHADOWMAN 2:
We only want to help you.
Buffy backpedals as far and fast as she's able, but in the end the chains restrain her - she's stopped - and the Dark Mist shoots inside her. She screams in pain.
BUFFY:
I can't fight this.
Buffy backs into frame, looking feral herself, the Dark Mist off her for the moment, but honing in. Buffy keeps moving back, pulling her chains taut. The Shadow Men watch, saying nothing.
BUFFY:
I know that now. But you guys? You're just... men.
As she says this, she pulls on her chains - ripping one from its metal ring, holding it fast to the floor. Now she's got a weapon. She swings the chain as she moves with greater freedom.
BUFFY (cont'd):
Just the men who did this. To her.
Whoever that girl was, before she was the Primitive.
To me, if you could.
The Mist dives for Buffy again. This time, like a matador, she side-steps it with ease, and, swinging the chain, heads for the Shadow Men.
BUFFY (cont'd): But you can't.
Buffy lets loose with the chain - it whips around one of the Shadow Men's ankles. Buffy yanks it, pulling the Shadow Man crashing down to the floor.
SHADOWMAN 1:
You don't understand. You need our power. To reject us is to disrupt the Slayer line.
SHADOWMAN 2:
You are making things worse.
BUFFY:
Good.
The Shadow Men lift their quarterstaves, spread out, and attack Buffy. That's okay, she's got the chain. And with her legs free, she's good with the kicking.
BUFFY (cont'd):
You think I came all this way
to get knocked up by some demon dust?
Think again, old guys.
They move in with their quarterstaves. Buffy swings the chain out, wraps it around one staff, pulls it back to her, catches it, and in the same motion brings the quarterstaff whipping back around her, knocking out the Shadow Man coming up her back.
SHADOWMAN 1:
You are only destroying yourself.
BUFFY:
Please. I died more times than you can count.
Whack! She takes out the second Shadow Man with a well- placed quarterstaff blow. Buffy continues her fight with the Shadow Men, and the tide has turned, momentum in her favor.
BUFFY:
I think you forgot one thing about power.
The Shadow Man, facing her, simply drops his quarterstaff and stands before her, defeated but dignified. Buffy takes her own staff and cracks it across her knee.
BUFFY (cont'd):
I am the power. Disrupting things is what I do.
Howling, the Mist disperses.
BUFFY (cont'd):
See?
SHADOWMAN 1:
(sadly)
We offered you power. You came for knowledge.
BUFFY:
So tell me something I don't know.
SHADOWMAN 1:
As you wish.
The Shadow Man smiles sadly and lifts a hand, as if asking permission. Buffy, wary, lets him. He reaches forward...
SHADOWMAN 1 (cont'd):
Now you will see. But without the power, I wish to know...
He touches her head.
SHADOWMAN 1 (cont'd):
How will you save the world now?
And the light of the portal erupts behind her.
~ ~ ~ ( Continued in Part III ) ~ ~ ~
[> [>
Re: The Lines Converging Where You Stand - Thoughts On *Get It Done* ~Part III~ -- The Second and Third Evils, 16:41:52 03/09/03 Sun
~ ~ ~ ( Continued from Part II ) ~ ~ ~
OnM: OK, there is just so much I could discuss about these new revelations, but I'll start with your question as to the possible reasons for the 'demon heart'. The exact sequence was:
SHADOWMAN 1: Herein lies your truest strength.
SHADOWMAN 2: The energy of the Demon. Its spirit.
SHADOWMAN 3: Its heart.
Now, the first word used was 'energy', followed by 'spirit'. The third shaman uses the word 'heart'.
Sol 1056: That part is the same as was said in the broadcast version, but the remainder was changed dramatically in some ways. I understand the value of looking at the rough draft, but what gets broadcast is what becomes part of the canon, the history. Just figured I'd jump in and point out that the impression from the script is only barely like the impression I got from the broadcast... but now that I've pointed out this caveat viewor, don't let me stop you here.
OnM: Point taken, and be aware that I'm going to ramble around the point extensively before actually getting to it. ( What else is new? ;-)
On the surface, things seem pretty straightforward. The shamans are nasty old men who want to solve their annoying demon problem by picking out some local girl with 'potential' and getting her 'knocked up with some demon dust', as Buffy so aptly puts it. (Sidebar: the movie that immediately came to my mind during this scene was Cat People, especially the remake by director Paul Schrader with Nastassia Kinski and Roddy McDowell as the title characters). The resultant union will produce a powerful fusion of human and demon that will hunt down and destroy the demon population, thus serving the survival needs of the human community.
First off, I want to make it clear that I totally agree with those fans who stated that Buffy did the right thing by refusing to be 'raped' by the demon spirit, and then taking down the shamans. However, if I'm reading the subtext correctly, I think that Joss wants us to understand that choosing to do so may in fact truly/fatally imperil the world of humanity - the world that Buffy has sworn to protect, even at horrible cost to herself. Buffy admits this to herself, and Willow, at the conclusion of the episode.
Sol 1056: Exactly! That momentary impression you mentioned at the beginning, the snap decisions and flash impressions that form the basis of our intuitive leaps, all led me to feel strongly that while Buffy had every right to be disgusted with the Shadowmen's method... it wasn't necessarily accurate to say her decision was therefore the right one. The issue here is that just because the news comes from someone you dislike doesn't mean the news itself is untrue.
OnM: The issue here is choice, and also having an understanding of just what is the true nature of the energy/spirit/heart she is being asked to merge herself with. Without knowledge, Buffy is required to make the sacrifice of herself - a patently unfair situation, directly analogous to military conscription, for example.
A few weeks ago, I had responded to a board post with, among other things, a statement of my intense distaste for the whole concept of conscription, that I feel it to be something unethical and immoral to the highest degree. It is a subject that I am always surprised to find ardent defenders of. Is it defensible, under any circumstance? Well, maybe...
Extreme actions call for extreme responses, desperate situations may require desperate moves, moves which cross the line from ethical to unethical. To use another currently running TV show as an example, on this season's 24, a terrorist group is attempting to detonate a nuclear bomb in the vicinity of Los Angeles. The reality of the bomb is not in question - it exists, and the terrorists are fully intent on deploying it, no matter what. Talk of compassion or reasonableness does not appeal to them. Certain people have knowledge that could lead to the elimination of this threat. These people are being routinely tortured to get them to reveal the information that they possess. The president of the United States actively condones this 'illegal' act because literally millions of human lives are at stake.
In The Gift, Buffy refuses to sacrifice Dawn to save the world, or at least implies as much. This is clearly an attempt, and a very noble one, IMO, to take and retain the moral high ground. Giles himself admits this, as he kills Ben (a mostly innocent human) to order to destroy Glory, an evil and destructive god. I am convinced that Buffy would have sacrificed Dawn as a last resort, and in all likelihood have killed herself at the same time or shortly thereafter. In the same earlier scene with Giles at the Magic Box, Buffy plainly stated that the price was too high, that she did not want to live in a world that makes these kinds of choices necessary. By fate or good fortune, Buffy discovers another alternative, and takes advantage of it. But if final push came to shove, the 'greater good' would have to be served. Buffy knows this.
But has the time come to for Buffy to accept that she cannot always retain the high, perfect moral ground any longer? Is the acceptance of the need to live with the spiritual baggage of these impossible choices the last step she will need to take as she enters full adulthood? Was Giles right? Are the 'good guys' who torture the terrorists just making the best of an irresolvable moral situation?
So here we are in this alternate dimension, and the true story of the creation of the Slayer is revealed. A young girl, probably with little speech ability, or higher levels of what we in the modern era would consider 'intelligence or reasoning' is conscripted to fight the demon menace. Are the shamans acting because the literal survival of all of humanity itself is at stake? This may be the case, and if so Buffy's dismissive cry of "you're just too weak" directed at 'the men' may not be valid.
For myself, I don't see the Shadowmen as either good or evil - they just have power that they can grant. The problem lies not in what they are trying to do, but in how they are attempting to do it.
Sol 1056: Right. I don't see it as a choice, though; the Shadowmen may have been assuming - when the shadow-play was created - that anyone using it was a Slayer, and was - by virtue of the play's use - choosing to gain whatever knowledge or power they could offer. Therefore, once the Slayer appears, there's no reason to offer a second choice. The Slayers weren't created in a Nanny-state, and they're not going to get multiple user warnings or seatbelts. You step through the portal, you just made the choice to play out the role and see where it goes... and for better or worse, the original girl wasn't given a choice.
OnM: Hummm... They may have assumed that, but that doesn't make it remotely fair, or even a good idea. From Buffy's POV, are the puppets and the 'shadowplay' spell they invoke really a gift from the shamans or their descendants on the Watchers Council? Buffy has only Wood's word for this, and he might only appear to be on the side of the good guys. Buffy jumps through the portal based on a gut reaction and with a generous helping of desperation driving that feeling. To say that she, or any Slayer using the portal, should accept whatever is offered and 'see where it goes' is not what I'd consider a wise act on the part of the Slayer in question. Again, I agree that the Shadowmen would probably see the issue in the seatbelt-less way you describe, but did they ever think that the spell could be misused by someone, or something? Why conk Buffy on the head and force her? It's kind of presumptuous.
As to the matter of having a 'choice', back when they created the First Slayer - what Joss and the writers refer to as 'The Primitive' - it may not have been possible to ask the girl if she would like to become a demon hybrid and use that power to defend humanity. She may not have been intellectually capable of even forming that concept - she may have just possessed some largely feral self-defensive ability that exceeded that of all other females available to the shamans, an ability that could be magically expanded to defend all humans, not just herself.
In fact, even if she did understand the ramifications of the act, would she reject it out of (quite sensible) fear for her own self-preservation, or due to underlying suspicions that the shamans might be up to something less than noble? (Not that that would ever happen, right?)
But even if we dismiss the shaman's actions as ones born of abject dire necessity, what about the treatment of future generations of Slayers? Eventually, the 'potentials' must have multiplied in number, as we are seeing currently depicted. Humans evolve, societies grow more intellectually and spiritually sophisticated, so do young women. At some point, why does the Watchers Council (which I am presuming grew from the descendants of the Shadowmen) not begin to consider that maybe they should start asking permission of the potentials before they are called, recruiting them instead of conscripting them?
I know, this has been debated before, and the usual contention is that the selection process is 'out of their hands,' that the 'magicks' invoked by the original shamans choose the new Slayer when the previous one dies and that all they can do is guide the newly Chosen. But have they ever even tried? Might there not be a new magick created that could shield the potentials from being chosen if they do not wish to accept the challenge of being humanity's defender? I am sure that many of these women would accept the burden, if they were accurately informed as to the greater purpose involved, just as many men willingly take up the sword to 'defend what is theirs.'
Well, the Buffyverse mythology as we've seen it to date would have to strongly suggest that the answer to this request has always been 'NO', and what I am thinking is that after untold millennia of choice being denied, Buffy is going to change things irrevocably, is going to 'disrupt the Slayer line' and emphatically enforce a new doctrine of fairness. The Slayer line may continue, but the magicks involved will be different, and the Chosen One will be the one choosing. Some potentials may accept the fusion of their own human spirit/energy/heart with that of the demon, some may not. All will serve in their own way, as they see best.
Many fans have predicted that after this year's events come to a conclusion, that Buffy will head a new form of the Watcher's Council that will be organized under more enlightened principles. Now that we know that the show is ending its seven-year run this season and will not be returning in its present form, one could argue that this direction or for that manner any Buffy-related direction is moot, but I disagree. Joss has repeatedly stated that he would like to make movies in future based on the existing Buffyverse mythology. I am assuming that Sarah would not object to periodically reprising her role, and having her as the head of the New Watchers (or whatever) would be similar to the roles played by any of the Trek captains, Professor Charles Xavier as the head of the X-Men series, or Neo in the Matrix films.
Sol 1056: I don't know where Joss is heading with this universe he's created, but I'd rather wait for him to surprise us all (and if anyone can, he can). But the question right now is how Buffy and the gang can make it from episode 7.16 to episode 7.21, and whether her decision - that choice - was the right one.
Getting back to your earlier points, the Shadowmen tell Buffy they will only give her power, saying,
SHADOWMAN 1: Herein lies your truest strength.
SHADOWMAN 2: The energy of the Demon. Its spirit.
SHADOWMAN 3: Its heart.
And the implication is that by offering/giving/forcing her this, the end result is power. At the end, she tells them, "tell me something I didn't already know," a double entendre to the previous line ("We offered you power"), as well as a final request for information of some type. Buffy's goal is to see what information she can get, but the Shadowmen aren't set up as a boxed library set; they're merely a reenactment of the original Slayer creation ceremony.
OnM: OK, I like that 'reenactment' analogy, and it does make sense. Perhaps that's the subtext intended when Buffy describes this portal adventure as a 'hologram'. The Shadowmen have available only a very limited range of action, dictated by the parameters of the spell. They really don't know what to make of, or do with, Buffy's reaction. I don't know if this is true, but it's really insightful nevertheless. Good thought!
Sol 1056: What I see as the underlying conflict between Buffy and the Shadowmen is that what each takes or gives has different labels for what may be the same thing. Throughout the BtVS run, as once pointed out by Mundusmundi, Giles and the Scoobies have always treated hit-the-books as Step One in any new battle. Research mode. Learn. Get knowledge. Joss has repeatedly shown/written/lectured us that Buffy's power comes from several places, and one of those places is knowledge. Buffy has been saying, "it's about power," but in the Realverse, we say, "knowledge is power." Back in The I in Team, Buffy ran up against the Initiative, that quasi-military group with no experience of deviants like Buffy.
Amidst the commandos Buffy raises her hand.
BUFFY:
Question.
Dr. Angleman doesn't seem sure how to respond, unaccustomed by this. He glances at Walsh who stands up again.
WALSH:
Buffy?
BUFFY:
Why exactly can't we damage this polka thing's arms?
I, uh, not that I want to, it's just in my experience when fighting for your life
body parts get damaged and - better its bits than mine.
(glances at the guys around her) Or . . . ours.
ANGLEMAN:
We wish to study the physiology of every subterrestrial's natural defenses.
It's part of the research we do here. (before he can continue--) Uh-- Yes?
We see that Buffy has her hand raised again.
BUFFY:
What do they want?
ANGLEMAN:
Want?
BUFFY: Why are they here? Sacrifices, treasure, or they just get rampagy?
(she is starting to get looks from the commandos)
I find it's easier to predict their responses if I know--
ANGLEMAN:
They're not sentient. Just destructive, I believe.
What if the 'power' inherent in the demon's heart provides a knowledge of the demon that could be significant in dealing with the First Evil? Somewhere in the Book of Five Rings, there's the famous line, To defeat your enemy, first you must understand him. Understanding the First Evil is nearly impossible at this point - we don't know what it wants, we only know parts of what it's doing that may (or may not) lead to its intended goal. Buffy may repeat that one can't prevent/defeat evil by doing evil, but the research is a major key to understanding the evil - gaining the power - and defeating it.
Understanding an opponent's power base isn't the same as mimicking the opponent, and the Buffyverse has never implied that it is, either, which is why I see the Shadowmen as a possible mislead. The 'demon' is never specifically classified by the Shadowmen as evil, so it's hard to say just sort of spirit or heart would be heading into Buffy. The only accurate statement might be Buffy's, that accepting this energy means accepting something non-human (but not necessarily evil). In Buffy's personal terms, non-human isn't a good thing... if you ignore that Spike has a soul and isn't completely human, that Anya is part of the team but was non-human vengeance demon for more than a millennium, and that Dawn is a construct wrapped around a glowing ball of portal-opening energy.
OnM: Very true, and to make yet another valiant attempt at point-refocusing, I'll relate the following regarding the ambiguous nature of either demonic or human spirit/heart/etc.
As I was falling off to sleep last night, and thinking about the whole Slayer origin mythos, a thought struck me that I had never even remotely considered previously as regards 'The Primitive', the First Slayer. To my knowledge, I have never seen anyone else suggest the following possibility, so please clue me if such is not the case. Here goes - (Warning! ATLtR!):
In Restless, it is taken as canon as far as I know that The Primitive attacked the Scoobies in their dreams because (as Giles surmised, and everyone seemed to accept,) that the enjoining spell made the spirit of the Primitive angry for calling on its primal power in an inappropriate way. Until the events of Get It Done, I would have accepted this explanation also - it seems perfectly reasonable, doesn't it?
Considering the rape metaphor so clearly depicted in Buffy's encounter with the Shadowmen and the demon spirit/heart, is it possible that the Primitive, that first, violated young woman, was not looking to take the spirit, heart, mind and hands from Buffy and her friends as revenge or retribution, but because she saw something that she wanted for herself.
Think about this. A largely feral, animalistic human female, impregnated with demon spirit, lives only in 'the moment of the kill, death, absolute'. She lives unhampered/unenlightened with any other feelings than these, for she has never known anything else. The physical human dies, but her spirit lives on, a metaphysical anchor for the line of Slayers descended from her. In the timelessness of the afterlife, all is same as it ever was, until one day...
... she is suddenly drawn into direct spiritual contact with the current descendent, and when the spirits touch and merge, she suddenly finds that there is something else. All is not the moment of the kill/ death/ absolute. Things have changed. There is a Slayer who shops, sneezes, has friends, who plans for a future where death is not her gift. The Primitive is stunned. How is this possible? The spirit, demon driven, but human anchored, finds a new desire emerge:
Want. Take. Have.
What is one of the essential differences between vampires and humans in the Buffyverse mythology? Joss would have us accept that it is the presence of the soul in humans, which according to Joss provides humans with a basic desire to do good, even if it doesn't always succeed in this impetus. In the Buffyverse, there have been only two known exceptions to the rule of soul-free vampires, namely Angel and Spike. Get It Done reveals that there is another human/demon hybrid creature out there that still possesses a human soul-- the Slayer. And what is the nature of the demon whose spirit or essence was used to impregnate the first potential? Is it possible that it is the spirit of the pure demonic vampire, a Turok-Han or some similar creature?
Buffy would be righteously horrified to think this, but many BtVS fans have wondered about this possibility since Buffy vs. Dracula. If this is true, then it explains much about not only the physical strengths and healing abilities of the Slayer, but also about the mental/spiritual battles with the 'darkness' within them. The vampire, an animal devoid of reasoning beyond its own survival and self-gratification, controls the human that it infects to the degree with which the latent human spirit resists. In most sired humans, once the soul departs, the resistance is negligible and fades rapidly as the 'animal' takes over the mind and body. Only the full presence of the soul gives significant control over to the human portion of the hybrid.
Presuming that the Primitive retained her soul when she merged with the demon - and for the sake of this argument I am assuming that, as you've noticed - she becomes the perfect killing machine, except that she kills demons, not humans. Beyond this, her soul has little effect - she is nearly a 'programmed machine,' much like Maggie Walsh's Adam was.
Sol 1056: That would be my cue. Adam was also a hybrid critter, custom-made monster. And since ATLtR, remember this curious line from the lamest of all bad guys?
OTHER GUY [Adam, without monster makeup]:
She's uncomfortable with certain concepts. It's understandable.
Aggression is a natural human tendency.
(Looks at Buffy) Though you and me come by it another way.
Shot of Buffy with the dark-haired creature behind her.
BUFFY:
We're not demons.
OTHER GUY:
Is that a fact?
That's a minor detail we've bandied about on the ATPo boards for some time now, and we finally have as much confirmation as we're going to get - the Slayer was a hybrid, created for a specific hunting and killing purpose. Looking back, the clear line drawn between Buffy and Adam could stand as another template, like I posited Him is a possible template for the 'Spike and His Nifty Jacket' plotline. Like in Him, the template comes to no good; Adam was bound for destruction because he went against the good (as represented by Buffy). But what was Adam's intention? In Primeval, we learn:
WILLOW:
[There's] some "final phase" where Adam manufactures a bunch of creepy cyber-demonoids just like him. There's a special lab down in the Initiative, but it didn't say where it was.
BUFFY:
[Adam] wants me to know all about his evil guy assembly line. (things clicking in her head) And this lab is in the Initiative?
WILLOW:
(nods)
Hidden somewhere.
BUFFY:
Give this demon his due. He thought this one out.
WILLOW:
What do you mean?
BUFFY:
You know how the Initiative has been so overcrowded?
Those demons were too easy to catch.
It's like they wanted in that place -
GILES:
The Trojan horse.
BUFFY:
The demons are going to attack the Initiative from inside.
XANDER:
Demons versus soldiers... Massacre massacre...
WILLOW:
...and Adam gets neat piles of parts
to start building his army. Diabolical yet gross.
In effect, Maggie Walsh was a Shadowman of her own accord, with a hybrid critter that went a little bonkers with the game plan. The Frankenstein element that we mentioned then doesn't seem to have been noticed this time around, and I think that's telling. We read the script two seasons ago, but perhaps we still have something to learn from it. If the Frankenstein mythos represents a bad creation, how can the Slayer be a positive creation? Wouldn't the very nature of the no-choice hybrid creative process negate any chance for continuation?
It's important to note, however, that Adam seems to have figured out prematurely what was going on, how he was created, and what he was supposed to do. Buffy, on the other hand, has - like nearly all Slayers before her - existed in near-total ignorance of her origins. This ignorance, as mandated by the Council and/or the Shadowmen, may have been the only thing keeping the Slayer institution in place. This makes it particularly bizarre, to me, that any Slayer would've had the shadow play box, because in opening it and using it, any Slayer could've (or would've) experienced the truth of her Frankensteinian existence. Be all that as it may, Buffy is different from any others, and even the Shadowmen's hail her as the Guardian of the Hellmouth, and not as the Slayer.
~ ~ ~ ( Continued in Part IV ) ~ ~ ~
[> [> [>
The Lines Converging Where You Stand - Thoughts On *Get It Done* ~Part IV~ -- OnM & Solitude1056, 17:22:16 03/09/03 Sun
~ ~ ~ ( Continued from Part III ) ~ ~ ~
OnM: Buffy is different, in orders of magnitude beyond the vast history of Slayers before her. Even Faith was, despite her turn to the dark side. One order of magnitude relates to the fact that Buffy has (as far as we know) lived far longer than any previous Slayer, even to the point of literal resurrection after death. In addition to her physical longevity, (as manwitch so capably detailed in his post on the seven spiritual stages of Buffy's life since her calling), she has evolved to a point that the next step up would take her to an understanding that reaches beyond the physical limitations of the world, of entering a universe where 'everything is connected'.
So, Buffy has arrived at a point of convergence no other Slayer could have taken advantage of. Do we know if the 'emergency kit' was ever actually used by any previous Slayer? Do we even know if what Robin Wood is saying about its origins are true? You made the very valid point earlier that the kit was a deus ex machina plot-wise. Was it one literally? Did the PTB directly/indirectly arrange for this relic to appear at just the time it was needed, like they did with the snow in Amends?
And so the lines converge, the picture plane moves. Is Buffy changing size? Is The Primitive changing size also?
Returning to Restless, many fans who analyzed the dreamscape noted that the subject of the First Slayer's 'attack' on the Scoobies related directly to the element of the contribution that they made during the enjoining spell. Willow was the 'Spirit', Xander was the 'Heart', Giles was the 'Mind', and of course Buffy was the 'Hand'. Willow lost her ability to breathe (breath = spirit), Xander literally lost his heart, and Giles was about to have his head cut open and his brain exposed/taken. In retrospect, other than the fact that this is really 'cool' from a writerly/metaphorical standpoint, exactly why on Earth would the Primitive do this? If she wants to kill Buffy's friends, why do it in these specific ways? Why not just snap their necks, or deliver a death blow with a knife or similar weapon? (By the way, you'll recall that she does attempt to stab Buffy in the last sequence, when Buffy announces that she is 'going to wake up').
Want. Take. Have. The essential summary of the elemental motivations of the unsouled, the purely animal, the demonic. I have power, and I desire to gain something. That power gives me the right to take what I desire, in and of itself. No other justification or reason is necessary. Faith was still mostly human when she made that now-famous quip, but she was sliding down fast on the slippery slope where power eventually envelopes absolutely. Faith, however, is far more evolved than the First Slayer. The First Slayer originally had only one real outlet for its own 'Want/Take/Have' urges, which was to kill demons. She wanted death, she made that death real, she reveled in what she experienced as the ecstasy of power.
Faith could not continually exist in such a simplistic state without it conflicting with her soul, her humanity. Buffy understood, at least initially, that the difference between her and Faith was only a matter of degree. Now she may come to see the difference between her and the Primitive as being also a matter of degree, albeit a far greater one. And I now believe that the reverse is true - the First Slayer, after contact with Buffy's spirit during the conjoining spell, seeks to gain at last some of the greater 'awareness' that Buffy possesses.
So, instead of simply killing Buffy and her friends by any convenient means, she wants to obtain their essences for herself - Willow's spirit, Xander's heart, Giles' mind. She intends to expand her consciousness, a very human desire, one denied her for the eternity to date. Note that she does not immediately try to kill Buffy, she tries instead to communicate, but the concepts now within her mind are far too complex for her, and she has no real command of language. Thus, a spirit guide (Tara) appears to make the connection possible, but it still largely fails. That it does is not really Buffy's fault, or the fault of the spirit guide. How do you explain a shopping mall to a Neanderthal, or even a Cro-Magnon? Or even the strange clothes that Buffy wears - all of it is too great a chasm to bridge in one single, short meeting of minds - let alone things like technology, altruism, humanism or philosophy..
So Buffy misunderstands - the Primitive seeks enlightenment, understanding within the limits of her mind's functioning. To her way of thinking, there is nothing wrong with killing these other beings to obtain this understanding. Friends? What are friends? The word has no meaning, it is a shadow of a dim memory at best. Why is this being, who is so terribly strange and yet is oddly intimately linked to her, denying this action? I have power, but she has power greater yet than mine. Why cannot I have what she has?
Now, consider these excepts from the shooting script with the alternate perspective I've just suggested, and you will find that it still works, amazingly enough.
The light on [Buffy] changes again, daylight streaming in from the side. She stands, heads toward it. As she walks, we see sand on the ground. Finally she's walking only on sand. Her face is no longer muddy. The wall behind her gives way to rock, and finally we are ... past the Initiative wall and into the bright white desert, the flat, sandy vista spreading out forever. Buffy stands atop a lone, large, sand dune. She looks around, worried.
BUFFY:
I'm never gonna find [my friends] here...
Tara appears opposite Buffy on the dune, walking toward her. She is dressed in Indian garb, midriff and skirt. Again, preternaturally calm.
TARA:
Of course not. That's the reason you came.
She stands a ways apart, the two of them regarding each other.
BUFFY:
You're not in my dream.
TARA: (agreeing)
I was borrowed. Someone has to speak for her.
BUFFY:
Let her speak for herself.
That's what's done in polite circles.
As she says this, the Primitive appears right behind her. Buffy is aware of her, but does nothing. The Primitive circles her, slowly, sniffing her, assessing her. Buffy is rigid, the Primitive all angles and motion, finally ending up in front of Buffy. As this is happening, we cut between the two slayers as though they are conversing, though it is Tara who speaks for the Primitive.
BUFFY (to the Primitive):
Why do you follow me?
TARA/PRIMITIVE:
I don't.
BUFFY: Where are my friends?
TARA/PRIMITIVE:
You're asking the wrong questions.
BUFFY: (calm anger)
Make her speak.
TARA/PRIMITIVE:
I have no speech. No name. I live in the action of death. The blood-cry, the penetrating wound. I am destruction. Absolute. Alone.
BUFFY (realizing):
The Slayer.
TARA:
The first.
The Primitive stands erect at that, facing Buffy with defiant pride. Buffy looks down, at her hand. Sees the deck of tarot cards that Tara had tried to hand her. The top card is actually a birds eye view of the four friends asleep in Buffy's living room.
BUFFY:
I'm not alone.
The Primitive growls, snaps her teeth at Buffy.
TARA/PRIMITIVE:
The slayer doesn't walk in the world.
BUFFY:
I walk. I talk. I shop, I sneeze, I'm gonna be a fireman when the floods roll back.
There's trees in the desert since you moved out, and I don't sleep on a bed of bones.
Now give me back my friends.
The Primitive struggles to contain her rage, finally spitting forth:
PRIMITIVE:
No... friends... just the kill... we are... alone.
As she says this last, the Cheese Man leans into frame, dangling a couple of slices invitingly.
BUFFY:
That's it. I'm waking up.
The Primitive leaps into frame, knocking Buffy back out of it. And they fight, briefly, the Primitive strong with primal rage, Buffy more sophisticated, the martial artist. After a quick exchange Buffy comes up at the edge of the dune, saying:
BUFFY:
It's over.
The Primitive dives at her, tackling her and they both roll down the dune and we hard cut to: the interior of Buffy's living room, where it's night. Buffy wakes up. Everything is the same as it was, except Buffy is lying in the middle of the floor. She raises herself, looks over at the gang -- they are still sleeping. Buffy is about to speak when the Primitive drops into frame right in her face and stabs her, bringing the knife down again and again... She stops. Buffy looks pretty bored. There is no blood on her.
BUFFY:
Are you quite finished?
She gets up, moves back to where she was sleeping. The Primitive stands, bewildered.
BUFFY:
You just have to get over the whole primal power thing.
You're not the source of me.
She sits, makes herself comfy.
BUFFY:
Also, in terms of hair care, you really want to say
'what kind of impression am I making in the workplace?'
'Cause that particular look --
And in midsentence: SMASH CUT TO: INT. BUFFY'S LIVING ROOM - NIGHT
She wakes, for real -- gasping with the intensity of it. Looks about as the other four go through the same thing. They look at each other, overwhelmed.
OnM: Be aware that I've taken the liberty of denoting Tara's name as 'TARA/PRIMITIVE' in places. One of the ambiguities in this part of the script is that on occasion, you aren't sure who is speaking - Tara the spirit guide, or the Primitive. I now think that this may be deliberate, another element in the puzzle. For example, I think it is the Tara/Spirit Guide who comments that "You're asking the wrong questions."
The gist of the whole exercise here is that these two separate instances, Buffy came to the desert for knowledge/enlightenment, and found someone looking for the same thing (in Restless), and someone only looking to grant her more power (in Get It Done). Both visits involved misunderstandings on Buffy's part. If she could correctly put the clues together, it might lead her to decide which course of action will be the one to follow, the path of power that will work for her (in season 7).
What I'm trying to get at is that the 'normal' reading of this scene appears to be a matter of Buffy denying that the Primitive is like her, that the power the Primitive draws upon is not the one that she needs to draw upon to win against The First Evil. In my 'revised' reading, we also consider that the Primitive wants to be more like Buffy, though she can't express that in words. So if my conjecture is correct, or at least has potential merit, is this a confirmation that Buffy is right to refuse the Shadowmen's offer?
All of which gets back to the scene in Get It Done when the Primitive insists to Buffy that "It's not enough." We think that the Primitive wants Buffy to accept the demon power gift of the Shadowmen, but it's the opposite. When the Primitive tried to stab Buffy (in Restless), and it was totally ineffectual, she realized (although, again, not necessarily understanding why at the time) that Buffy was indeed more powerful than she.
Sol 1056: I see where you're heading. Personally, I find myself drawn back to the Frankenstein metaphor, a step removed (or evolved). If you think of the Primitive as the first Frankenstein creature, the first Adam (so to speak), then the creature/girl/Slayer's perspective of a later creation - now that we know what the first Slayer went through, to become the Slayer (and against her will) - it's no surprise that the First Slayer would hate Buffy, but that hate would naturally grow out of jealousy/envy. Why can Buffy achieve and keep the very things of which the First Slayer was so cruelly deprived?
I recall that in the Frankenstein myth, the monster demanded that Victor (the creator) make the monster a mate. Of all fates, it seems the worst one would be to wander the world alone; we ran into this theme with April back in I Was Made To Love You. (Yet another Frankenstein-heavy episode, too.) When Victor refused, the monster strove to destroy all that Victor cherished, in revenge. April demonstrated the same element, when she attacked Warren once it was clear there were no other options. Perhaps one aspect of what we're dealing with is the first creation harboring jealousy towards the 'second,' the late-comer, much as older siblings envy their younger, protected kin.
The warning from the First Slayer, then, is perhaps a key to understanding the Primitive's perspective on Buffy's chances of beating the First Evil. "It's not enough," the Primitive tells Buffy, but we're not clear what isn't enough, nor what this 'enough' is supposed to be enough for. Is Buffy's containment of the Slayer energy (or what remains in her, at least) the 'not enough,' or is her attempts to train the Potentials 'not enough'? Chloe crying just before the Slayer appears might be the prompt for the Primitive's statement, or it may be a red herring as to what the Primitive is referring.
But if we perceive the Primitive as a killing machine but with one that's effectively 'just a girl' underneath it all, it seems to me the previously hostile Primitive's words indicate she's found a way to 'score' against those who cursed her to such a lonely fate. The Slayer energy, she might be saying, isn't enough. It's hard to say whether the First Slayer had any idea Buffy was about to get a one-way ticket to visiting the Shadowmen; if the First Slayer had an inkling, this idea of her warning-as-retaliation might have more weight. But even without it, it's hard to say at what point the First Slayer would stop being antagonistic towards Buffy and actually try to help.
OnM: Ahh. And then there is the dynamic between Dawn and Buffy that has evolved over the last several years, and the change in behavior of both sisters towards one another. While Buffy may understand intellectually that her memories of Dawn were created by the monks, those memories still seem totally real to her, and she can't help acting instinctively on their influence. The issue of sibling rivalries and jealousies, the envy routine etc.-- all appear to have been essentially resolved this year. Buffy now treats Dawn mostly like an adult, and Dawn has responded by becoming more of one. There was an exchange of power, and both sisters benefited. Did a similar exchange take place between the FS and Buffy? Will both women benefit? It is a potential mirror theme, seems to me, and maybe even a kind of foreshadowing.
Sol 1056: The First Slayer vs. Buffy element also raises questions as to what sort of exchange might occur between Buffy and Faith, as well. Keeping in mind, of course, that Buffy isn't The Slayer - nor do the Shadowmen greet her as one. She's the Last Guardian of the Hellmouth, the general of her little army. Her ability to reconcile with Dawn may speak to possible success in doing so with Faith, but the Dawn/Buffy understanding has taken nearly two seasons, while the Faith/Buffy situation was just left hanging. I don't know if it could be resolved, using the same template as Dawn/Buffy, with so little time until the end of the season. (Same goes for the First Slayer and Buffy.)
I feel a non sequitur coming on...
At the beginning of this combined insanity, there's a quote from the Smiths. [Censored] years ago, I recall listening to that song, "Half A Person," and lumping it in with 99% of all other Smiths songs, reduced to the common denominator: I'm morbid, poetic but unappreciated, a purple prose dreamer in a blue collar factory town. (Who wouldn't be rendered utterly despairing by Manchester, anyway?) Now that it's this many years later, and I had reason to listen again to the album, Louder Than Bombs, I was surprised and mildly delighted to finally grasp the song isn't from the point of view of a young girl or boy, despondent and purposeless.
In fact, the narrator of the song, who only intrudes at a few intervals (including for the few lines quoted at the beginning of this aforementioned insanity), is Morrissey himself, or any other idol of some small stature. The rest of the song consists of the groupies' voices, telling him how long they've followed him around. The sadness - and the sardonic eye-rolling - wasn't apparent to my 16 year old self. "And if you have five seconds to spare / I'll tell you the story of my life." Morrissey's lyrics are gently but firmly ridiculing his own fans, who have no purpose except to follow his band around, mooning, morbid and pale.
Okay, so it's not entirely a non sequitur - it's just that sometimes, when you're assuming a certain path for a song (the despairing element of the usual Smiths lyrics, Pink Floyd's philosophical leanings), or for a story (think of His Dark Materials and the question of Eden) - you find yourself stumbling over the realization that you've gotten used to an interpretation because, well, you just never bothered to really think about it. Pullman's twist on Eden is a twist predicated on the assumption that the reader is so used to the Eden story being about a fall that seeing it as a possible rise is unexpected. Joss does the same things, over and over; where orthodoxy sees a story as being set - Dawn bleeds to open the portal, therefore Dawn must bleed to close portal - that his ability to turn all the details upside down and shake them out again surprises me repeatedly.
The ability to do this, though, requires the continuity of having the story work both ways. We can read the Primitive as being jealous because the original 'canon' is ambiguous - does the First Slayer stop because she gives up, does she attack because Buffy is out of line, or does she attack because she's jealous? Does she help later because she recognized Buffy's supremacy, or does the First Slayer still harbor any resentment? For that matter, was that even the First Slayer telling Buffy it's not enough... hey, the Primitive is dead, people. Who's to say you can't dream of the First - any of the Firsts?
But back to my point - the songs and stories that can intrigue us so many years later, are invariably ones that were casting a shadow of a perspective we'd not really comprehended or caught, the first time around. It can be a line that, without the preconception of the medium, reveals a different voice: "I've spent six years chasing your tail." And it can come down to a single word: size, or sides. If the narrator is an obsessed, geeky boyfriend, there's one story; an obsessed, lonely groupie being disparaged by the band's leader, that's another story. Both could, possibly, work - the real joy, I think, is in catching those single moments where a single word can twist the connotations in any of a series of directions.
OnM: For some impossible-to-determine reason, I still remember this crazy argument I had with my family when I was just a kid (I'm thinking like maybe 10 or 12 or so) as to whether the correct line from Battle Hymn of the Republic was:
For He died to make men holy / Let us die to make men free
-or-
For He died to make men holy / Let us live to make men free
I insisted that the correct, or at least original line was 'die', not 'live'. My sister and my folks all agreed 100% that I was wrong, that it was 'live'. They thought that 'die' was rather negative and uninspiring. That might be, but I was sure that 'die' was the way that I first heard the song. (BTW, I just now Googled "Battle Hymn of the Republic"-comma-lyrics and found that most versions agree with me. Nice to know I was right, even if it was 40 years after the fact. Typical!)
Sol 1056: (laughing) And I bet no one in your family remembers the argument, so there's not even a chance to gloat, all these years later.
Which reminds me, one of the other big metaphors that was raised - and then dropped - was back in Tabula Rasa, when Buffy selects the name of Joan. A bunch of us around here pegged that as being a nod to the idea of Joan of Arc, but we never concurred (nor was it ever resolved onscreen, either) as to whether this referred to Buffy's past or future. If a Joan of Arc is leading an army, is betrayed, tried unjustly, and sentenced to die, where does this fit in? The obvious answer is the general theme of Slayers fighting to protect humanity, general betrayal by the Council's backwards, obtuse ways, and the usual young death for each successive Slayer. I suppose that might work, but only if you could stretch it to say that in each case of a Slayer's death, someone on "her" side is somehow tied to a betrayal that leads to her eventual death - because you'd be trying to get the Joan metaphor to work for the overall schema of a Slayer's life. It's not really a Buffy-metaphor, in that sense, it'd be a Slayer metaphor. Thing is, Buffy wasn't The Slayer when she chose Joan, she was something else and twice-brought-back, at that.
To really consider Joan of Arc, we've got to look at the real history. The bloodlines of the kings of England were tied up with the bloodlines of the kings of France, with a long history of various English kings coming into France, claiming/ruling territory, and getting thrown out again. At the time, France's kings were pretty ineffectual (a shock, I know), as were their army. When Joan made an appearance, there was a great deal of politics involved. Heavens only know what she wanted herself, the poor hallucinating illiterate wench, but she wasn't the one bound to rule when the dust settled - that would be yet another relatively ineffectual French king. For their part, the French politicos didn't like her for coming in, rallying the people, and showing up the status quo with her unconventional (and mostly untrained and somewhat questionable) strategies, but they especially disliked that a mere girl would kick English butt where they had failed. And, as most folks are aware, the English didn't like having their butts kicked by a mere girl, either, so once the English got a hold of Joan it was just s'mores for her.
To make the metaphor work, we'd have to have several basic elements in play. Are the kings of that side (i.e., the First, vampires, demons) are somehow intricately tied to the kings of this side (Vampire Slayers, champions, souled vampires)? The souled vampires are a duh; they're vampires (that side) with souls (this side). And this most recent episode demonstrated that the Vampire Slayers are the reverse image of souled vampires - they're human girls with added demon heart, the mirror image to vampire men with added human soul. Both circumstances tie the good guys to the demons or evil on the other side.
Second, the one doing the unconventional war, rallying the little people like in Graduation Day, is not the one who will inherit the throne, let alone the earth. In this case, Buffy still fits the metaphor. Either the real king is the Buffyverse's version of political leaders, or it's The Vampire Slayer (Faith, for the time being). Buffy is not the Vampire Slayer anymore, she's the Hellmouth's last guardian. Perhaps in this role she's more of a Joan figure by virtue of being someone who gains relatively little while possibly paying everything - something she's done for nearly seven seasons now, actually.
Lastly, assuming the current Vampire Slayer stands for the French king in the metaphor, the question becomes: when Faith shows up, just how pissed is she going to be that Buffy appears to be usurping the position of Vampire Slayer... again? Part of the French royalty's dislike of Joan was the fear that she'd try to capitalize on her popularity by claiming the throne, or that her popularity with the rabble would lead the masses to attack the throne on her behalf (even if she declined any attempt at the throne herself). Faith, presented with a houseful of potentials obviously loyal to Buffy, is still a wildcard when it comes to swallowing the bitter humiliation, one more time, of being shown up by someone/something so much more experienced and powerful than herself. Whether Faith will be the Burgundian nobles and willingly let Buffy be sacrificed to the other side - or whether she'll play Charles VII and fight to get Buffy back - remains to be seen.
The difficulty, I think, hinges on the fact that we've had numerous hints over the seasons about possible deaths for each character, and the metaphor could play out with any of the three core characters. Joan, the sacrificial lamb, led to the slaughter - Xander, in Restless, because it's still true that ATLtR. Joan, accused of witchcraft (later amended to heresy) and burned at the stake - Willow in Gingerbread, and now, 'the most powerful Wicca in the Western Hemisphere.' Joan, the general, betrayed by those in whose name she fights - Buffy, betrayed by a potential, by Faith, the remaining Council members, by someone else?
OnM: Joan of Arc may be an inspiring figure in history, but she did end up in a rather painful fiery demise. I don't think that Buffy will end up this way at the end of this season, and not just because Joss wanted to hedge his bets about a possible eighth season, or a recurring role for Sarah in spin-offs or movies. Will Buffy subvert the Joan mythology? So to speak, will 'living to make (humans) free' be her ultimate statement?
Sol 1056: Oh, she's going to subvert it. I can guarantee that much - whatever she does, it'll be whatever wasn't in the script, so to speak. Remember what she told the Shadowmen in the original script for Get It Done:
BUFFY:
I think you forgot one thing about power.
The Shadowman, facing her, simply drops his quarterstaff and stands before her, defeated but dignified. Buffy takes her own staff and cracks it across her knee.
BUFFY (cont'd):
I am the power. Disrupting things is what I do.
It may not have shown up in the final version, but its inclusion gives us some inkling of where Joss is heading. (One reason it's nice to see the drafts.) Buffy's power is built on her ability to take that single word that can alter the entire meaning from dark to light or back again. We may be able to use the Joan of Arc metaphor as representation for Buffy's path but we need to also recognize that there will be a single point where everything shifts, and Joan's fall and charges of heresy aren't followed by death by wood-chopping Bringers. Problem is, we can't know that point until we've heard the whole song...
The End..?
Stay tuned for the next installment when OnM cries, "Holy Anchovies, it's Postmodernism to me!"
INT. ELEGANT STUDY - NIGHT
As in the opening of Masterpiece Theatre, we PAN ACROSS LEATHER-BOUND VOLUMES (including some Collected Heidegger, Pol Anderson, Douglas Adams, and bound editions of LIL' ABNER and THE FABULOUS FURRY FREAK BROTHERS comics) to find OBJECTSINMIRROR sitting in a leather chair in front of a 25" flat screen computer, with SOLITUDE1056 standing nearby drinking absinthe. OBJECTSINMIRROR wears a fancy non-smoking jacket, holds a mouse and studies the screen before him. He sits forward in response to something he sees on the screen.
OBJECTSINMIRROR:
Whoa! Whoa!! Easy on the Postmodernism, '6! This is a delicate operation here!
SOLITUDE1056:
Hey, it's either worked by now or it hasn't, Number Three.
OnM pauses, ponders.
OBJECTSINMIRROR:
Humm. Guess you're right. Should we try the acid test?
SOLITUDE1056:
I concede the floor to your lungs.
OBJECTSINMIRROR:
(loudly)
Anchovies, anchovies, you're so delicious, I love you more than all the other fishes!
Sol checks the computer screen, shrugs.
SOLITUDE1056:
Nope. Still asleep. Once more with feeling.
OBJECTSINMIRROR:
Right. Here goes... (yells at top of lungs)
ANCHOVIES, ANCHOVIES, YOU'RE SO DELICIOUS,
I LOVE YOU MORE THAN ALL THE OTHER FISHES!
Sol studies the computer screen, looking pleased.
SOLITUDE1056:
Elementary, my dear Misspelling, nothing to it,
and not a restless poster in sight. We're good, we're bad. Oh, yeah.
(beat)
Ow, I think I sprained my arm.
EVIL CLONE enters from the basement, looking cranky.
EVIL CLONE:
HEY! What's with all the damn noise up here?
How'm I supposed to be drinking myself into a stupor if you keep yelling like that?
SOLITUDE1056:
(to OnM)
What's the deal here? Why isn't he asleep too?
(re: the board)
They're still out, though. Whew.
OBJECTSINMIRROR:
Uhh, well, he's... it's the genetic modifications I made when...
EVIL CLONE:
(to Sol) I'm immune, dude. Close contact to his writing for too long.
Otherwise I'd always be asleep, and then
how would I have time for the sex, drugs and alcohol portion of the day?
OBJECTSINMIRROR:
Heh heh... he's just kidding...
SOLITUDE1056:
You made him a Scorpio?
(off OnM's blank expression)
Never mind. Anyway, the entire board is out like a light.
If all goes as planned, the First Evil will start fading away
and we can make the final move in our nefarious plan.
EVIL CLONE:
Yeah, right. That always works.
E.C. leans over circle of magic Microsoft sand and studies the image of the sleeping board on the monitor.
EVIL CLONE (cont.):
Hummm.... So after the FE fades into disparate psychic molecules and all,
how're you gonna wake 'em all up?
OnM flashes a genius-wide grin.
OBJECTSINMIRROR:
Alan's Psychedelic Breakfast!
SOLITUDE1056:
Uh, okay, although I would've suggested the Ramones...
EVIL CLONE:
Yah-uh-huh. Got any chips? Some of those salt'n'vinegar ones'd be cool.
Or even plain ol' barbeque. And we're outta Beck's Dark again, dammit.
Why can't you keep a proper inventory on hand?
E.C. heads off to the kitchen, muttering to himself.
OBJECTSINMIRROR:
(apologetically, re: E.C.)
He's like this some times. OK, most times. Take my advice
and keep out of the genetics research thing.
Darth Rosenberg is less dangerous.
Sol nods sagely.
SOLITUDE1056:
I understand. We all have our day jobs.
OnM turns back to view the monitor.
OBJECTSINMIRROR:
We are beltless, my friend. Let us go forth!
SOLITUDE1056:
Indeed, let's cue up the final music, and let the regime change begin.
Wait -- beltless? Think we'll need spoiler warnings for that line?
I'm evil, not stupid - I don't want the Anti-Trollop Corp squishing me...
OnM goes forth anyway.
OBJECTSINMIRROR:
Time, time, time, what will become of us. What is, always was, and will be.
Thus spake the Tralfamadorian Simon and Garfunkle.
Sol puts the Replacements re-release CD away, trying to look cheerful.
SOLITUDE1056:
Alright, Grandpa, you're the host.
OBJECTSINMIRROR:
But, my young apprentice, I host with vinyl!
OnM gently lifts the tonearm and places stylus in groove. Floydian notes ensue.
OBJECTSINMIRROR (cont.):
Ah, yes... Knowledge of love is knowledge of shadow.
Sleep tight, my pretties...
*******
Little by little the night turns around
Counting the leaves which tremble at dawn
Lotus's lean on each other in yearning
Over the hills a swallow is resting
Set the controls for the heart of the sun
Over the mountain watching the watcher
Breaking the darkness waking the grapevine
Knowledge of love is knowledge of shadow
Love is the shadow that ripens the wine
Set the controls for the heart of the sun
Witness the man who waves at the wall
Making the shape of his questions to heaven
Whether the sun will fall in the evening
Will he remember the lesson of giving?
Set the controls for the heart of the sun
The heart of the sun
The heart of the sun
*******
pinkfloydonline
*******
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Some thoughts on the First Slayer -- KdS, 06:39:34 03/10/03 Mon
Really fantastic essay, and G-d knows how much effort it must have taken. Your interpretation of Restless is quite remarkable and convincing, but it doesn't fit to me with the portrayal of the FS in Tales of the Slayers:Origin (semi-canonical, but written by JW). In that story the FS is rather more human and vulnerable than your interpretation of Restless would suggest - she's comforted by the idea of future Slayers, not jealous of them. One possibility that I wonder about is whether the entity that manifested as the FS in Restless is not the complete FS, but the Slayers' inner demon. That might still fit into your interpreatation - the demon trying to steal everything that it's missing like Kathy in LC and it would add even more meaning to various lines in that ep, like Buffy's "You're not the source of me".
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Re: Some thoughts on the First Slayer -- OnM, 07:43:39 03/10/03 Mon
*** In that story the FS is rather more human and vulnerable than your interpretation of Restless would suggest - she's comforted by the idea of future Slayers, not jealous of them. ***
Ahh, but's that's my point with the re-interpretation. Buffy has perceived the FS as a mostly animalistic figure-- it's why she draws away and disassociates herself with the FS's powers, or source thereof.
My take is that the FS wants what Buffy has, but at first doesn't really understand why, other than as a desire for more power. As time passes, that desire for power turns into a desire to become more human, or more accurately, regain the deeply buried human component of her dual nature, which has been mostly lost as she becomes a 'programmed killer'.
So, actually we're in agreement as far as your reference is concerned.
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Some Things Sure Can Sweep Me Off My Feet -- Arethusa, 19:18:08 03/09/03 Sun
Wonderful, sweeping, epic! So much food for thought! Can't stop using exclamation points!!
A few ideas inspired by these posts. All insanity is the fault of myself, and not the posts.
"It's not enough." Was the First Slayer warning Buffy that the demon power wasn't enough to defeat the First Evil? Maybe the FS was killed by the FE, because a killing machine can't defeat evil. Only someone with ties to her humanity can. Or-the power isn't enough to keep the Slayer alive. It takes a village to raise a Slayer. She needs humanity, and human contact (something Buffy is currently stifling).
A bizarre thought-maybe the Slayer doesn't come with an expiration date. No one knows how long this demon-human hybrid would live because she always dies young-maybe she might live forever, unless she's killed.
Did the Shadowmen CREATE the first vampire by ripping out the soul/spirit/heart of a demon and giving it to a human girl, leaving the demon to wander the earth bereft, constantly seeking to regain its heart by drinking the blood of the human creatures that stole from it? The heart keeps blood pumping through our bodies, making us warm, alive, hard as Spike said (well, the guys, anyway). Swallowing the blood makes it course through the body's veins, making the vampire feel something other than dead. It's just depraved on account of it's deprived.
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Ditto on the wow, and on that shadowmen idea -- shadowkat, 20:33:56 03/09/03 Sun
First off - Sol and OnM, don't know whether to thank you or curse you - this post is the longest I've seen on the board (you outdid me) and it killed half my ink and paper!! On the other hand ---much reading goodiness, and all on one of my favorite episodes, Get it Done...not to mention the illusions to Him. As a close friend stated recently - "We really do need a whole community of people to truly see the layers in this show."
Did the Shadowmen CREATE the first vampire by ripping out the soul/spirit/heart of a demon and giving it to a human girl, leaving the demon to wander the earth bereft, constantly seeking to regain its heart by drinking the blood of the human creatures that stole from it? The heart keeps blood pumping through our bodies, making us warm, alive, hard as Spike said (well, the guys, anyway). Swallowing the blood makes it course through the body's veins, making the vampire feel something other than dead. It's just depraved on account of it's deprived.
This neve occurred to me. Interesting. And incredibly ironic. The Shadowmen created the slayer to slay pure demons not the vampires. But in doing so, they created the vampires which she spends most of her time slaying and who spend most of their time either running from or attempting to slay her. Are vampires and slayers truly siblings?
Were they both created by the Shadowmen? Did the Shadowmen's act also create the First Evil, was this in fact the first evil?
Hmmm. Need to chew on that. Interesting concept. Almost too interesting - got to watch over-estimating these writers, this could lead to disappointment. Don't want to jinx myself.
SK
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Re: Some Things Sure Can Sweep Me Off My Feet -- Calamus, 06:45:13 03/10/03 Mon
Oooooo, that idea about the creation of the vampires gave me the shivers.
What you're getting at works with the possible movie references as well (my personal litmus test). The shadow play brought to mind Ann Hu's "Shadow Magic" (2001) which is partly about breaking with or changing traditional ways of doing things. Also brought to mind the shadow play in "The Year of Living Dangerously"- not sure how that works, but it seems fitting somehow, with the whole struggling with humanity in the midst of war thing. The Dracula reference below fits, too.(Haven't seen "Jumanji," but that's been mentioned.) Wow.
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Re: Some Things Sure Can Sweep Me Off My Feet -- Alison, 08:23:47 03/10/03 Mon
Your theory about vampires would make sense, especially because GID is all about actions having a price, and an exchange being needed, a balance in the universe..which is what the FE wants to destroy.
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*wow*, arethusa & shadowkat! only, um-- -- anom, 19:38:59 03/10/03 Mon
"Did the Shadowmen CREATE the first vampire by ripping out the soul/spirit/heart of a demon and giving it to a human girl, leaving the demon to wander the earth bereft, constantly seeking to regain its heart by drinking the blood of the human creatures that stole from it?"
That's an amazing idea, & so is shadowkat's that the attempt to do this to a male created the 1st vamp. Astonishing insights both. So...I hate to have to shoot 'em down, but....
Giles said the 1st vampire was created by the last demon to leave Earth. Why would the Shadowmen wait to make a girl into the Slayer until all but the last demon were gone? Dawn reads from the book in the emergency kit in Storyteller: "The men took the girl to fight the demon...all demons." So there must've been more than 1 at the time.
Of course, Buffy does live in a 'verse of unreliable sources...so maybe you're right!
A lot of other things in this subthread deserve comment. Sophist writes: "Also note the interesting creation myth in Storyteller. After demons came men (Giles used the same word in The Harvest). Not people, not humans, Men. They 'found' a girl. The girl appears providentially."
You could emphasize a different word: They found "a" girl. A specific one? Did the 1st Slayer start out as a Potential--the Potential? And does this alternative creation story imply that men & women weren't created together? Did they just "appear" on Earth, separately? Of course, "men" has been used to mean "humans"; though it isn't used that way as often today, it certainly was in the time Giles' source for the story was written.
Giles also says: "This world is older than any of you know. Contrary to popular mythology, it did not begin as a paradise. For untold eons demons walked the Earth. They made it their home, their... their Hell. But in time they lost their purchase on this reality. The way was made for mortal animals, for, for man [again!]."
Hmm..."popular mythology." Is this Joss' most explicit dis to the major religions? @>) And it's interesting how passive the demons' passing is. "They lost their purchase...the way was made...." As though it just happened, not because humans drove them out. Did some other force loosen the demons' purchase & make the way for humans? The First Good everyone was asking about awhile back? The Powers That Be?
Oh, & Arethusa, I really liked this: "A bizarre thought--maybe the Slayer doesn't come with an expiration date. No one knows how long this demon-human hybrid would live because she always dies young--maybe she might live forever, unless she's killed."
I wonder if they even age after being called--maybe they have more in common w/vampires than Dracula & Tara suggested! "You haven't even begun" to live your full lifespan (among other things)? (I'm trying not to think of a connection w/Manjet on Angel.) Oh, & somewhere in this thread--I think in the OnM/Sol essay that started it all--it's suggested that Buffy has lived longer than other Slayers, but in Doomed, Buffy says Slayers don't live past 25. To me, that implies some of 'em have gotten closer than she has...so far.
Oy...my 1 reference to that fantastic 4-part collaboration, & it's to disagree! I hope I'll have time to respond more fully before the thread goes the way of all.
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And in these Tales of the Slayer... -- Solitude1056, 20:48:32 03/10/03 Mon
The very first story (the only one I've perused, so far), the Slayer is 29, nearly 30 - but is also getting worn out by the constant fighting, much like construction workers and professional athletes will wear out their bodies around the age of 30. So I don't know how much creedence there is to the "live forever" concept, because inherent in the Slayer's definition of "live" is that she will, in nearly every single twenty-four-hour period, potentially get some degree of injury. Even with good healing strength, the body does eventually draw a line somewhere. If there were a way to get Slayer strength without the fighting, then, yes, I'd imagine the Slayer could live longer and healthier than the average Joe. The chances of a fight-free Slayership are pretty nil, though, I'd suspect.
Personally, I think the short life span is in part due to the very energies keeping her alive. If the body is otherwise human, and we heal after a wound, the Slayer's speedy healing is the same action but at a higher rate. Burn brighter, burn faster. Perhaps the injuries just hasten the otherwise inevitable burn out.
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Re: *wow*, arethusa & shadowkat! only, um-- -- s'kat, 21:36:04 03/10/03 Mon
Giles said the 1st vampire was created by the last demon to leave Earth. Why would the Shadowmen wait to make a girl into the Slayer until all but the last demon were gone? Dawn reads from the book in the emergency kit in Storyteller: "The men took the girl to fight the demon...all demons." So there must've been more than 1 at the time.
Of course, Buffy does live in a 'verse of unreliable sources...so maybe you're right!
Truth is - it might actually be as simple as Sophist mentions. The last demon to leave the earth...may have been the demon the shadowmen inadvertently created - the demon they took the heart and spirit out of. That may have been the one the First slayer didn't kill and the one who created the vampires.
OTOH - Giles' little speech made no sense to me at the time, because, uhm last demon to leave the earth?
Then when did they all come back? Seems like there's quite a few demons out there, that aren't hybrids or vampires? Come to think of it - thinking back over the seasons, how often has Giles' books been right? (maybe we and the SG are placing way too much confidence, trust, and faith in Giles...remember what Ethan Rayne said? Underneath the tweed lies Ripper.) Prophecy Girl - the book predicted Buffy dies, Giles misinterpreted it, so did the Master. Same on Ats, how often has Wes been right? (Someone should go back and check, my memory could be wonky on this.) I'm beginning to not trust Giles' knowledge or the Watchers. What was most telling about the emergency kit and the shadowmen in get it done is as Sol1056 puts it "they weren't a boxed library set", their knowledge is limited to how the slayer was made.
Apparently the Watchers don't know that much - their knowledge seems to have big gaping holes in it OR maybe they do and they haven't been up-front about it? Is it possible that Giles has been lying to Buffy and her friends, not telling complete truths? White lies? If so, what are they leaving out?
Also what if the vampire was created inadvertently by the Shadowmen in the same Manner the slayer was? How would that effect Buffy's thoughts regarding them? I mean in a way they are her brothers and sisters...there but for the grace of god go I and all that.
Don't know. Probably completely off on it. But it is curious to think about.
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Re: *wow*, arethusa & shadowkat! only, um-- -- Celebaelin, 22:45:18 03/10/03 Mon
I thought precisely that when I first heard it as well but I thought they explained this, didn't the script indicate at some point (can't remember exactly who said it) that the demons that left were creatures like the mayor was trying to become after ascension, not the silly little humanoid oiks (like Acathla!).
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Re: *wow*, arethusa & shadowkat! only, um-- -- lynx, 23:00:08 03/10/03 Mon
i don't think the watchers need be lying - just giving what they do know, or what has been recorded. how much of the whole truth is known about anything in the past? from last week through WWII, the napoleonic wars, king arthur, socrates or the epic of gilgamesh? slayers were created in prehistory - not too likely they have all the details correct. :)
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Okay, that was damn fine. -- dub, 21:10:42 03/09/03 Sun
So, I'm thinkin', how long will it take the two of you to apply the same treatment to all 144 eps? Reading that would carry me through from the final episode of BtVS until past my own expiry date!
;o)
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Re: The Lines Converging Where You Stand - Thoughts On *Get It Done* ~Part IV~ -- Isabel, 02:54:57 03/10/03 Mon
42 pages, huh. I was wondering why I was taking so long to read it.
Wonderful as always, folks. An episode is not complete without OnM's review, although I usually read it at page 5 in the archives, so I can't respond to it and say, "Wow! That's really good..." I'm not slighting you Sol, your participation was a wonderful added free gift.
I have a friend who thinks 'Misspelled Buddhist' is hilarious and it took me a few seconds to get 'Premature Norman' and then I was in giggles.
Since I have nothing to add to the discussion, I have to let you know I'm wondering how you guys did this. The conversation aspect is really cool. Did you email back and forth and back and forth and then put it all together?
I am in awe.
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Short technical details -- OnM, 06:08:30 03/10/03 Mon
I've mentioned this before, but it bears regular repeating-- anyone can respond to anything in the archives, just make a note to that effect and then respond on the main page. Cut'n'paste relevant sections, if that helps. This goes for any poster. Lots of times a thread gets archived just as a discussion finally gets going-- don't let that stop you! If the thread was only just archived, consider asking Masq to bring it back.
As to how we did this, the original idea was Sol's, and yes, we e-mailed sequentially back and forth, adding new sections and revisions on each pass. It really was kind of like a conversation, which was deliberate. It took about two weeks to do this, mostly because of realverse time constraints for both of us. Start to finish, there were 16 versions before the final post emerged, the one that you read, and even then Sol was tweaking it just hours before post time.
It was a trip, and it would be fun to do it again sometime, but not just right away! (whew...)
Thanks for your kind words.
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Resurrecting the thread -- Isabel, 19:12:50 03/10/03 Mon
But that would be logical, Mr. Spock!
;-)
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I bow before your combined brilliance! Great work! -- ponygirl, 09:01:52 03/10/03 Mon
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The Price -- Sophist, 09:12:36 03/10/03 Mon
Just wanted to add some canon to support your suggestion that the Shadowmen, in effect, created vampires by creating the slayer:
From Storyteller (edited) we get:
Dawn:
First there is the earth....Then there came the demons....After demons there came men. Men found a girl. The men took the girl to fight the demon...all demons.
And from The Harvest:
Giles: This world is older than any of you know. Contrary to popular mythology, it did not begin as a paradise. For untold eons demons walked the Earth. They made it their home, their... their Hell. But in time they lost their purchase on this reality. The way was made for mortal animals, for, for man. All that remains of the old ones are vestiges, certain magicks, certain creatures...
Buffy: And vampires.
***
Xander: So vampires are demons?
Giles: The books tell the last demon to leave this reality fed off a human, mixed their blood. He was a human form possessed, infected by the demon's soul. He bit another, and another, and so they walk the Earth, feeding... Killing some, mixing their blood with others to make more of their kind. Waiting for the animals to die out, and the old ones to return.
Putting the 2 together, it seems that ridding the world of demons -- the original task of the slayer -- indirectly caused the origin of vampires.
Also note the interesting creation myth in Storyteller. After demons came men (Giles used the same word in The Harvest). Not people, not humans, Men. They "found" a girl. The girl appears providentially. The clear implication is that men could not fight their demons without the girl, i.e., woman. However, instead of asking for her help, they forced her (as you noted). Could it be that the creation of vampires is the price for this Original Sin?
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Why are slayers always girls? (spoilers up to GiD and Ats Salvage) -- s'kat, 15:24:45 03/10/03 Mon
Xander: So vampires are demons?
Giles: The books tell the last demon to leave this reality fed off a human, mixed their blood. He was a human form possessed, infected by the demon's soul. He bit another, and another, and so they walk the Earth, feeding... Killing some, mixing their blood with others to make more of their kind. Waiting for the animals to die out, and the old ones to return.
Sophist: "Putting the 2 together, it seems that ridding the world of demons -- the original task of the slayer -- indirectly caused the origin of vampires.
Also note the interesting creation myth in Storyteller. After demons came men (Giles used the same word in The Harvest). Not people, not humans, Men. They "found" a girl. The girl appears providentially. The clear implication is that men could not fight their demons without the girl, i.e., woman. However, instead of asking for her help, they forced her (as you noted). Could it be that the creation of vampires is the price for this Original Sin?"
Okay this reminded me of something that the writers keep bringing up. I've seen it appear in at least three episodes of Buffy and one of Angel this year.
Andrew asks the question in Potential, also sort of asks it in Showtime and in Killer in Me..."Why are slayers always girls" then he sort of answers himself in I think it's Potential, but can't remember - "Eve - the first woman and the growth towards womanhood..." or something like that.
Which i would have dismissed as just a joke until, Salvage, Ats episode, where we have Connor asking Faith the exact same question: "Why are slayers always girls." To which Faith responds: "We're just better I guess."
This makes me wonder - is it possible that the Shadowmen attempted at one point to make slayers from men and got a vampire instead? Did they make the same mistakes as Prof Walsh did with Adam to start out with? Was the making of the slayer really that similar to the Frankenstein myth?
We get the male head or priest - turn him, nope the demon killed him - made him undead and he joined the demon side, so we have to find a way of stopping him - 'I know, let's try a girl? Hey that worked rather well. Must have something to do with menstruation or something.'
Or is that just really wacked??
SK
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No that's great. -- Arethusa, 15:55:49 03/10/03 Mon
After the hangover eased a little, I realized that it's humans walking around with demons inside-not demons. Therefore the Shadowmen would have had to infect a human to create both vampires and slayers. I just can't figure out why the demon would create a vampire with a man and a slayer with a woman for the Shadowmen, but both sexes only create vampires now.
The life of a fanwanker is not an easy one.
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Chasing rabbits. -- Arethusa, 18:28:13 03/10/03 Mon
When I took biology in high school I used to drive the by-the-book teacher nuts asking science-fiction inspired questions. "Let's not chase rabbits," he begged when I raised my hand.
Let's chase rabbits, gentle viewers.
Could all the potentials (including Buffy) be descended from the First Slayer? Over thousands of years, her descendants could be many and varied. Maybe Joan of Arc was one. And Hua Mu Lan? Boudicca?
Is Restless being reinacted, only for real? I think this has been brought up before. Giles nearly becoming scalped by the Bringers, and the First Slayer. The bag of clay/slayer lore. Willow with her lover, afraid to be who she is: dangerous witch hiding under innocent clothes, and not knowing what to do. Xander, realizing it's all about the journey, being the comfortador. Giles, unable to quite make the connection to the First Slayer, fussing about the details. (Rupert, you've got to focus, says Willow.) And of course Buffy, who tells the First Slayer "You're not the source of me," but is finding out differently.
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I think you're right! -- Scroll, 23:01:09 03/10/03 Mon
This season more than any other keeps bringing us back to "Restless" and I don't think it's any coincidence. "Restless" showed us a glimpse of the origin of the Slayer, her primal state. Then it showed us how Buffy is different from the First Slayer, because she has Spirit, Heart, Mind, as well as Hands. If Joss' statement for Season 7 is "back to the beginning", it makes perfect sense that we recreate the episode that seems to, both narratively and metaphysically, transcends time and space -- much like Buffy's experience with the Shadowmen in "Get It Done". I always felt that "Restless", especially all the desert scenes, took place both in the past (ancient Africa) and in the present (like when Buffy goes on her vision-quest in "Intervention"). Personally, I subscribe to the ATLtR ideology! : )
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Re: Chasing rabbits. -- Darby, 05:31:19 03/11/03 Tue
The actual idea of common descent is one of those rabbits that doesn't really get you anywhere, I'm afraid - everybody is descended from the same ancestor if you go back far enough, but the Slayer Choosing is mystical and metaphorical rather than biological, and works better that way (plus, ME's biology sucks, so they're better off not going that way!). Ethnically, it's too much of an Equal Opportunity Selector, and it's interesting to think that any fetus could be Touched by the Slayers.
But it occurs to me that costuming has constrained just how far back the First Slayer goes, although I'm sure they didn't mean to - the Shadowmen were wearing pretty sophisticated clothing for the really distant past - maybe their appearance fits their visitor's expectations. Yeah, that'll work. Each Slayer sees what she kind of expects "primal and ancient" to be. Buffy read about the Eve Hypothesis and never read the retractions, so she sees ancient Africa.
I do have tremendous problems with the suggestion that at some point in time, the men were all advanced and magicky and the women were feral beasties (I'm thinking you didn't really mean to suggest that, O & S) - I suspect that the influence of that first Shadowman spell may have taken an equally articulate woman and somewhat demonized her. Add in the shunning that her tribe mates gave her (from Joss' Tales of the Slayers) and you could still have had a feral Slayer with poor communication skills.
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Specifically feral, not generally.. -- OnM, 06:11:09 03/11/03 Tue
Can't blame Sol, that was my comment.
No, I never meant to imply that the women of the time were universally feral or intellectually primitive. I meant that the shamans deliberately sought out a 'primitive', with the idea that they wanted a human as close to an animal state as possible, or at least as they saw it. After all, the presumption was that the end product was intended as a fearsome demon 'killing machine', and have only enough 'human' qualities to keep it (her) under human (read: the shaman's) control.
As you read on, you'll note that in fact my re-reading of the Buffy/FS interaction in Restless presumes that the FS is far more human than the shamans ever allowed for-- which is why her connection with Buffy makes her want to obtain the greater 'enlightenment' that she senses Buffy possesses without necessarily understanding why, in an intellectual sense. She intuits that Buffy is different, and somehow 'better' than she is in the ways of not being a slave to the shamans. She then desires to obtain this same freedom.
Movie analogy-- the 'Feral Kid' character in the second Mad Max film (who is identified in the credits exactly that way), who we are surprised to discover in the end develops speech and sophistication, and eventually becomes 'the leader of the great Northern Tribe'. Why? Because he interacts with, an becomes an admirer of, the (righteous, in the best sense) warrior Max.
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A theory, potentially wacked (spoilers GID ) -- s'kat, 18:35:04 03/10/03 Mon
Therefore the Shadowmen would have had to infect a human to create both vampires and slayers. I just can't figure out why the demon would create a vampire with a man and a slayer with a woman for the Shadowmen, but both sexes only create vampires now.
I'm wondering if maybe the demon didn't have a choice. Maybe they took the demonic energy/spirit/heart from the demon - but not it's mind. It's not sentient - it's sort of like the pure demon creature that Angel becomes in Pylea, non-sentient. It doesn't know it is being used or has any more choice in the matter than say the human subject. What if the Shadowmen did the same things magically to their demons and humans that Prof Walsh tried to surgically do her subjects? What if Prof Walsh wasn't as innovative as we think? Maybe this scenerio just repeats itself? First the shadowmen, then the watchers, then prof Walsh??
Also what if, the shadowmen through magics enslaved some demonic energy - and then tried to marry or place that energy in humans?
The failed experiements would be the vampires. Maybe men couldn't take the spiritual energy without it turning them undead? Or maybe they felt the men had to be drained of blood first? Some older cultures believed in a rite of man-hood that entailed the draining of blood. Maybe in the attempt of marrying the two rites - the shadowmen inadvertently created a vampire.
Then what if - they attempted to get the vampire to create a slayer but instead created another vampire? Or the new creature aching to be what it once was - since it is now, because of the shadowmen, cut off from both worlds the world of men and the world of demons - it set out to make more of its kind so it would be less lonely? To raise an army to hurt those that hurt it? (Both Ats and Btvs repeatedly make the point that vampires are despised by both demons and humans and are outcasts.) And the rage of being outcast - caused it to attack both humans and demons indiscriminately?
The slayer happened b/c somehow the Shadowmen finally got it right - they needed to find someone with "potential", if you didn't have it - the demonic energy would alter your body into the undead. If you do have it - voila slayer.
But only women - work in this fashion, because you have bleed for the demonic energy to take route, but the bleeding must occur naturally and not from a manmade wound.
Menstruation for example?
And they can create slayers or non-vampires as long as it's not through the biting.
1. Angel and Darla created Connor - a male version of the slayer with supernatural power but still human. They do it the old fashioned way, not through siring, but through childbirth and sex.
2. Dawn is made from Buffy and possibly Faith's DNA
3. Wood is Nikki's child but not a slayer or with that potential as far as we know.
So apparently it is possible not to create vampires - as long as the process is done correctly and the person getting the power has "potential"?
Or am I complicating things?
SK
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This all goes around and comes back around again to one of Joss' pet metahpors -- Solitude1056, 20:55:55 03/10/03 Mon
that is to say, Frankenstein. I really think I - or any other volunteer - needs to go back over the past six seasons and see how many times we've gotten the Frankensteinian theme, and whether it's turned out well for the monster or the creator. We know already how it turned out with April and Warren... there are others, aren't there? Might give us more insight into the Shadowmen's version of the story.
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A halfassed attempt at Frankestein mentions -- s'kat, 21:14:17 03/10/03 Mon
Well...hmmm, I think you're right.
Let's see off the top of my head:
Season 1: I Robot, You Jane - a demon is banished into a book which in turn gets put into a computer program and the computer geeks put him into a robot where he wants to get together with Willow - Willow got a crush on the voice in the computer, but upon meeting old Moloch? Not so good.
Buffy electrocutes him to death.
Season 2: Some Assembly Required - kid brother resurrects his brother by using dead body parts. Problem is brother wants a mate, so they try to surgically sew and build a woman from dead body parts with Cordy's head. Xander and Willow save Cordy. Poor dead Derek gets killed trying to save the burning corspe of the girl.
Season 2: Ted, Ted who is ill, builds a robot self to keep his wife's love and keep her with him. Ted dies. And when the wife dies. The robot keeps hunting replacements and stacking them up in his basement. He goes after Joyce, wants her to be all his. Buffy ends up saving Joyce and killing Ted.
Season 3: Drawing a blank here...wasn't really into season 3. Nope can't think of any robot or Frankenstein imagery.
Season 4 - well the entire Adam arc. Most of the episodes were about this. Riley was about this. Chipped spike. etc.
Season 5 - Aprilbot and Warren, Buffybot and Spike,
Making Dawn out of Buffy. Making Ben as a prison for Glory.
Dawn worked out well - or is a work in progress. Ben not so much. Forever - with Joyce coming back not quite right and Dawn stopping it before she came through the door.
Season 6 - Katrina acting like a robot in Dead Things, Buffybot in Bargaining, Warrenbot in Villains - getting killed by DarkWillow - although it did fool her.
Season 7...Get it Done??
Only one couldn't think of anything for was Season 3.
SK
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Season three, Frankenstein, odd... -- dream, 08:09:26 03/11/03 Tue
Season three is my favorite (though if the last six episodes are as strong as I hope, it might be surpassed.) Anyway, it's interesting that the Frankenstein metaphor doesn't occur in this season of all seasons. I usually think of Season Three as, among other things, the "Season of Bad or at Least Confused Parenting." There's Band Candy, in which the self-indulgent boomer generation gets wasted on drugs while the babies are stolen from the town. There's Gingerbread in which the parents turn on their children in a frenzy of fear. There's Helpless, in which the good father figure momentarily becomes the bad-father figure by valuing institutional tradition over his "child." There's the whole Mayor-Faith twisted father-daughter love. There's the contrast of Giles' and Joyce's responses to Buffy's return in Dead Man's Party. Then there's Graduation Day, when the children move into their own adulthood. Since Frankenstein is often read as a sort of parenthood gone wrong myth, it seems strange that it wouldn't have been used at least once. But I can't think of one either...
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OMG, that's brilliant! -- Scroll, 16:34:38 03/10/03 Mon
And it makes perfect sense that vampires aren't demons themselves but hybrids: humans with a demon essence, just like the Slayer.
Unfortunately, as much as I love your theory, I don't know if Joss would use this interpretation of how vampires were created because it casts the Men in a really bad light. Sure, Men (the Shadowmen/the Council) can be stupid and misogynistic, irrelevant and out-of-date, but do we really want to make them responsible for creating vampires and, thus, all the evil ever perpetuated by vampires? That seems a little too extreme even for feminist Joss.
BTW, as I was reading your post, I just kept repeating out loud: "Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God!" My housemates started looking at me funny ; )
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Re: OMG, that's brilliant! -- s'kat, 18:47:08 03/10/03 Mon
Trying this one more time, voynak keeps eating my posts.
How about this...what if they didn't intentionally do it?
Maybe:
1. The first time they attempted it with a girl - she got turned into a vampire and escaped and she created the vampires??
2. They were like Prof Walsh - tried with guys first failed, didn't intend to...
3. There's a demon version of the shadowmen out there who did the same thing?
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Re: OMG, that's brilliant! Spoilers for GiD in this and my above posts. -- Arethusa, 19:17:12 03/10/03 Mon
How about: the first time the Shadowmen tried it with a male, using a demon who had or was instilled with a drive to merge with the subject, to create a new life-the slayer, a bloodthirsty killer of demons. But men can't give life, so the process killed the man, whom the demon kept alive to roam the earth as a vampire. So they tried again with a fertile young girl. It works! Meanwhile, the vampire, which doesn't know the mojo that will create a slayer, is compelled to sire others, drinking their blood in a vain attempt to follow his instincts.
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A metaphysical placenta? -- OnM, 19:40:28 03/10/03 Mon
Consider that a woman can conceive and give birth to a child with a different blood type than herself*. Normally, you mix the wrong blood types, you die. A pregnant woman can also become ill, and not have the unborn child become ill.
So if the demon 'mates' with a male, the male either dies and/or is taken over by the demon. If the demon mates with a female, the 'metaphysical placenta' keeps the demon heart/spirit/energy compartmentalized, a part of her yet seperate. So, only females can be made into Slayers.
Does this make sense?
*To Dochawk, or other medically knowledgable folks, am I correct about this? I think I am.
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Yes, that makes sense. -- Arethusa, 19:56:08 03/10/03 Mon
A pregnant woman can have "alien" cells invade her body, yet not attack or reject them. And I think you're right about blood type. Too bad they didn't show a pregnant woman being demonized, than giving birth to a slayer. That might have been even more interesting.
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Oh this does work...(Spoilers for Lullaby/GID) -- s'kat, 21:01:30 03/10/03 Mon
Yes, I think it does work logically. (Only question is - is ME doing this?? Can't tell.)
Some more ideas:
A pregnant woman can have "alien" cells invade her body, yet not attack or reject them. And I think you're right about blood type.
In my research on blood types, and memory is hazy so medical types correct me if I'm wrong - but the child can have a different blood type from the mother, but it's blood type must be a product of the parents. ie. You can't have an A from two B parents, impossible. Also some DNA match-ups can cause problems, particularly from the same family, hence the reason for not marrying and having kids with your brother and or sister. So a slayer - comes from the same blood-line, she gets a little of Mom's blood (human) and a little of Dad's (demon).
Odds are that they did try it with a man first, knowing those ancient cultures it's more than likely they did, heck look at Prof Walsh - her subjects were all men (and in the ancient cultures - men were chosen to be warriors or to become warriors). Since, as OnM states - men can't give birth - it probably would have killed him - causing the demon to keep him alive and getting an odd inverse of what they intended - ie not a demon, not a slayer, a vampire who counteracts it's bloodlust by creating more of itself - like a sick man spreading an retrovirus or evolutionary virus - the virus compells the man to do it, in order to procreat and survive.
Too bad they didn't show a pregnant woman being demonized, than giving birth to a slayer. That might have been even more interesting.
Actually in a way they did. Darla. They did the opposite they had the vampires give birth to a male slayer and the woman vampire had to die in order for it to happen. The whole mother sacrifices her body for the child. Except unlike the human girl who sacrifices her human body to become the slayer. Darla the vampire sacrifices her vampire body for the human slayer.
Perhaps I'm reaching on this one.
This is just so much fun.;-)
SK
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blood types/pregnancy, & another theory on the slayer girls' club -- anom, 21:32:51 03/10/03 Mon
The major blood type system (A, B, AB, O) usually doesn't cause serious problems when a pregnant woman & her fetus have different types. The Rh system can cause problems in a pregnancy if the mother is Rh-negative & the fetus is Rh-positive. The 2 blood supplies remain separate during the pregnancy, but during labor the fetus' blood cells can get into the mother's bloodstream. The 1st such exposure sensitizes her immune system to the Rh factor so she produces antibodies to it, & if she gets pregnant w/another Rh+ fetus, the antibodies do cross the placenta & attack the fetus' blood cells. The baby needs an exchange transfusion--complete replacement of s/his blood w/Rh- blood--to survive.
And that's the simple version! I should probably refresh the board to see if Dochawk has already done this better, but what the hell.
Besides, I wanted to float another possibility for why Slayers are always female. "Potential" status may depend on having 2 copies of a rare recessive gene...that occurs only on the X chromosome, so no male could have both copies. (OK, yeah, there are people w/XXY genotypes...don't know how that would affect things.)
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Re: blood types/pregnancy, & another theory on the slayer girls' club -- Celebaelin, 23:06:32 03/10/03 Mon
XXY is what is technically known as 'not good news' (alright I made that bit up). The offspring is phenotypically male in terms of genitalia, but also exhibits certain female secondary sexual characteristics at puberty - breast development and broadened pelvis for certain, maybe others. They are essentially infertile apparently, although I would have expected a fertility of roughly 50% of the normal average (as the chromosomes would have to split either XX and Y or XY and X during the initial meiotic division as opposed to X and Y in a genetically normal male individual). Then again last I heard no-one was conducting any experiments (no, I'm not starting that debate). The condition is called Turners Syndrome I think.
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I forgot to mention -- Celebaelin, 23:11:33 03/10/03 Mon
IQ about 80
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Having one of those days -- Celebaelin, 09:35:30 03/11/03 Tue
I got Turner's Syndrome mixed up with Klinefelter's Syndrome. I know what folows is a bit technical but if you want to know there are on line medical dictionaries available, for more info try
http://47xxy.org/
it has an associated dictionary
In the interests of accuracy
klinefelter's syndrome XXY (also termed 47XXY)
A condition characterised by small testes with hyalinization of the seminiferous tubules, variable degrees of masculinization, azoospermia and infertility, and increased urinary excretion of gonadotropin. Patients tend to be tall, with long legs, and about half have gybecomastia. It is associated typically with an xxy chromosome complement, although variants include xxyy, xxxy, xxxxy, and several mosaic patterns (xy/xxy, xxy, xxxy, etc.).
Turner's syndrome X (45X) Also partial deletion of one X
A rare genetic disorder (1 in 3,000 births) in women that is characterised by the absence of an X chromosome. This disorder inhibits normal sexual development and causes infertility.
Features include webbing of the neck, short stature, retarded development of secondary sex characteristics, absence of menses, coarctation of the aorta, low hairline, eye abnormalities (drooping eyelids) and skeletal deformities.
Treatment include oestrogen supplementation at puberty. Growth hormone replacement may be necessary in some cases. Cardiac surgery may be necessary to correct coarctation of the aorta.
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Interesting stuff, thanks Celebaelin -- Scroll, 09:59:17 03/11/03 Tue
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May the circle be unbroken.... -- I'm tired of typing my name, 20:46:15 03/10/03 Mon
>>>Giles: The books tell the last demon to leave this reality fed off a human, mixed their blood. He was a human form possessed, infected by the demon's soul. He bit another, and another, and so they walk the Earth, feeding... Killing some, mixing their blood with others to make more of their kind. Waiting for the animals to die out, and the old ones to return.
Sophist: "Putting the 2 together, it seems that ridding the world of demons -- the original task of the slayer -- indirectly caused the origin of vampires.<<<
So.... there's the balance again. The original task of the Slayer indirectly caused the origin of vampires - who work to "wipe out the animals" while waiting for the old ones ot return.
I always wondered what vampires would do after they killed or vamped all the humans - it seemed self-defeating. But in light of this world as a kind of waiting room full of vampires with human-buffet included, and the REAL VIPs won't be coming in until the buffet is eaten and cleared - it makes sense for them to keep on vamping like crazy. They must be able to live in both this world and hell, then.
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Making it up as we go along and other obliquity -- fresne, 16:52:42 03/10/03 Mon
Nothing to add really. It's just talking about lines of convergence makes me think of a Geometry principle*. There is a point where parallel lines meet called the infinity point.
Pause for a Tron moment imagining glowing lines meeting on the horizon.
Infinity. Eternity. You don't know yet what you are. What you will become. Are parallel lines reaching the end point? Buffy contains Slayer. What contains Buffy?
*Disclaimer: Due to my complete and utter ignorance of anything math, oh the horror, the suffering, the rending grief, I can only mention that I've heard of it, but not explain. For some reason I also want to talk about the Golden Rectangle in a Masonic/fractal sort of way, but I'm equally ignorant. And sometimes it's better to write nothing, than to google it and look like a fool.
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Thoughts up to here (and future speculation) -- dub, 20:49:12 03/09/03 Sun
Okay, I hope I can get this down before I lose it: Buffy didn't accept the additional power the Shadowmen offered because of its inherent darkness. Now she's worried she won't have enough power to go up against the First and its evil army of Uber-vamps. But if we surmise that the First Slayer did have all the demonic power that the Shadowmen could impregnate her with, then Buffy still has access to that power by combining with Willow, Xander, and Giles as she did in Primeval.
In the sense of going back to the beginning, what we saw in Welcome to the Hellmouth was the beginning of this very quartet: Buffy meeting with the Watcher, the Witch, and the Carpenter. Damn, what's the analogy? Hand, Heart, Mind...um..Spirit? Not in that order. Well y'know what I'm getting at anyway. You may just have hit on the potential solution to this year's (and the final) Apocalypse.
;o)
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a fanciful analogy -- anom, 10:13:19 03/10/03 Mon
"Buffy meeting with the Watcher, the Witch, and the Carpenter. Damn, what's the analogy? Hand, Heart, Mind...um..Spirit? Not in that order."
Maybe more like the Lion, the Witch, & the Wardrobe? Again, not in that order--I'm putting Xander 1st: The Lion, the symbol of courage, a word related to "heart" (Lion-heart, anyone?); the Witch (needs no translation); & the Wardrobe, a repository--OK, of clothes, not books & knowledge, but we're talking analogy, right? And in the C. S. Lewis book, the Wardrobe leads to a hidden world of danger & adventure, as Giles leads Buffy to the hidden world of demons & vampires.
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Although I had to laugh, trying to imagine it -- Dead Soul, 23:43:28 03/09/03 Sun
(Sidebar: the movie that immediately came to my mind during this scene was Cat People, especially the remake by director Paul Schrader with Nastassia Kinski and Roddy McDowell as the title characters)
(emphasis mine)
Um, I think you mean Malcolm McDowell, although I had a good giggle trying to imagine Roddy, a la his character in Fright Night, in the role of the seductive, predatory older brother in Cat People
Dead (but still putting out fires with gasoline) Soul
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Ooops! -- OnM, just seeing if anyone's paying attention, 06:31:24 03/10/03 Mon
(Not!)
Sorry about that, and right you are, DS! I was actually going to have a section later on in the post relating that movie to the theme of Buffy and the Shadowmen, but when we started pushing 100K worth of text, I decided to drop the idea.
Sloppy on my part, no other excuses here!
:-)
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About Dawn helping -- Scroll, 21:49:29 03/09/03 Sun
Just wanted to say, this is a wonderful review and I'm still trying to grasp it all.
I wanted to make one comment however:
Odd that you saw Willow needed Dawn's support - I saw Dawn's support as effectively ending once she opened the portal (the first time).
Perhaps Dawn wasn't directly involved in the magic of opening the portal, but she was the one who rallied the Scooby Gang, and kick-started Willow and Anya into thinking outside the box with the physics and the catalysts. That's my take, anyway.
(skipping off to read Part III)
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Re: About Dawn helping -- OnM, 06:19:55 03/10/03 Mon
That was my exact take on it-- I enjoyed the irony that in previous seasons, Dawn was routinely depicted as a force for chaos (sort of: "Dawn's in trouble-- must be Tuesday!"). Now, in GiD, when the need arose she quickly became a source for order, getting the bickering, disorganized Scoobies on track towards getting Buffy back from wherever she was, and she performed admirably.
I have little doubt that ME intended us to envision a link between the opening of the portal and Dawn, but they deliberately underplayed it just enough to keep us wondering about her possible future Key abilities.
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Working my way through! -- Rahael, 06:22:27 03/10/03 Mon
Great stuff.
A couple of comments. In the Season 5 DVD, Marti Noxon, in the season overview said that Dracula comes from within Buffy. In other words, he is a manifestation of a part of her. The blood she drinks from him is her blood.
Also, Buffy's 'just men' comment seems to echo the 'I'm just a girl' comment in The Gift. What could that signify?
And just to add - last night, Random, LittleBit and I were discussing a very interesting slant on power, the First Slayer and the idea of 'Back to the Beginning'. Linking Buffy with another mythic female, who was created to fight demons, who drank blood and who was all about power. Hopefully we should be posting that up before the end of the week, once we gather stuff together.
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OT to Random and LittleBit -- Rahael, 06:47:32 03/10/03 Mon
Okay, I have been doing more work on this. I'm getting very impatient but I'm going to restrain myself and only post this after the new Angel ep.
However, I'd just like to point out another tidbit. OnM and Sol have, in these posts pointed out two key things: That Tara and the First Slayer are explicitly linked in Restless. The First Slayer doesn't have a name. The person to whom we are making a link to is "beyond name and form" . She also has dishevelled hair (and I thought that Buffy's comment about haircare was a joke! LOL). Then, thinking about the second visit from the First Slayer, the burning with love: I also found this, that she represents 'the bright truth of fire'.
I haven't seen GiD, so again Sol and OnM's post was really helpful. I hadn't realised that Buffy had explicitly stated that she '*is the* power'.
Okay. I'm the least patient person I know!! But I should think that Yaby and Caroline are going to have some great contributions to make. Hell, they know more about this than me, with my googling.
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Are we talking about a certain much-maligned Indian goddess here? -- KdS, 06:59:35 03/10/03 Mon
If so, no personal knowledge, but I'm looking forward to it.
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Yes, I'm blatantly drum up interest and anticipation ;) -- Rahael, 07:05:48 03/10/03 Mon
There are remarkable parallels to the First Slayer, and some big thematic associations with S7. I'm very excited about S7 at the moment, which inevitably means that I might be let down, but surely the fun is in the journey!!
I think it makes more sense to present a coherent set of posts on this, and Random is going to start off, and I shall do additions.
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Interested! Anticipating!! -- luna, 10:40:01 03/10/03 Mon
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Yes, very exciting! -- Dyna, 15:58:47 03/10/03 Mon
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Ohhh, can't wait! More mythological goodness to come! Yay! -- Caroline, 10:15:55 03/11/03 Tue
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Well, that certainly gave me a new POV on Kennedy! (spoilers thru Storyteller) -- WickedBuffy ::just rambling, don't read::, 20:22:35 03/10/03 Mon
Looking back on Kennedy from the epoint of view you presented sure opened my eyes to a different take on Kennedy.
She practically seems like an agent of FE's, sent to keep an eye on Willow, soften her up and even push her to do magic when she's trying not to do it. I believe she's human, though. And because of all the upset people surrounding Tara's death, ME would probably have her turn on FE and don a white hat. Whch might be another explanation why Willow drew power from her - she's probably got more power than a regular human to go with the job. (Has a potential ever been "turned" preslayer, I wonder? That would explain why she's alive, too.)
Then again, I like Kennedy too much to accept that.
About the demon spirit, heart etc that was going to go into Buffy - is it important for us to know "who" it was? Could it have been The First Evil"? As the story goes, you need to know your enemy to best defeat him/her/it. What better way than to put a little First in her? Was it a demon specially and specifically made for the Slayer? If so, who created it? Or is the the heart, spirit and energy of all demons - the generic base that makes them all. In that case, look at Clem and the other "good" demons. Wouldn't Buffy be able to do that same thing with demon in her?
I think she made a mistake and she'll get another chance at it. There's have been lots of second chances in the show. Willow, Anya, Spike, Andrew - they rechose their paths. Why couldn't it be offered to Buffy again?
nawwww.
When will Buffy integrate The First Slayer into her and "be enough"? Literally work together against what they both have always fought? Figuratively Buffy accepting her shadow-side? How about Buffy, The First Slayer - and the Scoobies as they did in the Initiative headquarters?
And isn' it funny how Dawn rebelling against Buffys "parental" power and Buffy rebelling against the Shadowmens power sound so similar?
BUFFY:
You just have to get over the whole primal power thing.
You're not the source of me.
nyaaaaaa .... and you're not the boss of ME!
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Timber!!!!!!!42 pages....I'm such a killer...and it's all your fault....;) -- Rufus, 17:47:07 03/09/03 Sun
Plus you are over at the Trollop board as well....my lurkers may not talk much but they do read the posts every day.....I'll comment on your post in a few hours after I've read it....
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Well, OnM wouldn't stop talking... ;-) -- Solitude1056, 18:34:04 03/09/03 Sun
But I'll admit when we crossed the 15 pages mark I thought of you with no small amount of glee.
Bwahahaha.
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Ah Ha! ......Exposed...an Evil plot against the First! ...(virtue)...<g> -- Rufus, 19:00:20 03/09/03 Sun
You are trying to kill my second laser printer aren't you...;)
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And Sol wouldn't stop answering, so there! ;-) -- OnM, 19:33:59 03/09/03 Sun
Rufus dear, please remember-- smaller font, larger margins. Works every time!
;-)
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Rufus is as blind as can be....... -- Rufus, 19:37:25 03/09/03 Sun
Small font just tires my poor eyes out....and there is less room for highlighting.
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I understand. My sister... -- OnM, 20:13:46 03/09/03 Sun
...has this big 19" monitor, and whenever I get e-mails from her, I have to remind her that the 8-point font that looks big on her screen turns into this leetle teeny tiny text on my 14" screen!
BTW, how you you get the yellow highlighter ink off the screen?
;-)
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Some thanks and some other stuff... plus a note for someone special -- OnM, 19:54:50 03/09/03 Sun
First off, a big ol' MB Thank You directed to Sol for suggesting this review co-op idea a few weeks back after Get It Done initially aired-- now you all know why this was running late!
Also another thanks to Sol for making the appearance of the end result all spiffy and nifty with the various HTML incants. Yay!
We're aware that the epic length of this post may very well push some other worthwhile posts off the board. Please don't be upset if yours got archived prematurely, just ask Masq to put 'em back, and she'll be able to help out. We still have new Angel eps appearing, but BtVS will be mostly hiatus-bound until April, so there is plenty of spare down-time to fill with interesting thoughts.
Thanks go to Psyche, as always, for the shooting scripts. Another Yay!
And if folks are still listening to and discussing Pink Floyd after 30 years, rest assured that the Buffyverse will certainly enjoy the same happy fate.
So thanks one and all for reading, and finally:
Dub... we don't understand half of it either, and we wrote it, so relax, it isn't you!
:-)
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OMG! Thank you, thank you, thank you! -- dub, 20:11:08 03/09/03 Sun
I'm about halfway through the second part, and I really needed that reassurance, LOL. So far I'm understanding pretty good, but at 42 pages the question is whether I'll even remember what episode you're writing about by the end. (Just kidding...I hope.)
;o)
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A slightly O/T movie note -- dub ;o), 20:24:45 03/09/03 Sun
Okay, finished part two, and it reminded me of something I felt while watching it the first time: Sol mentions how much s/he likes the whole Shadowmen sequence and it made me flashback to a similar scene in Bram Stoker's Dracula (don't know the year; Oldman/Rider/Reeves/Hopkins version) where the history of Vlad the Impaler is told with the same sort of shadow play cut-outs, against a fiery background. I found that quite intense and eerie and I had the same feeling when the sound came up behind the shadow play in GID. I wouldn't necessarily consider it an homage, but hey, it was a vampire movie...
;o)
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How about that Dracula? -- Rufus, 21:29:35 03/09/03 Sun
First off you mentioned "Him" strange conincidence Him was the original name of Adam Warlock...a Marvel comic book hero. You may want to relook at that episode considering more than the costume/jacket that made such a fuss.
Dracula....poncy bugger came all the way from wherever with his smoky effects and hypno-eyes...and what did he want...he wanted to establish contact with his "kindred"...Buffy. Most of all she had power that he wanted to help her learn to use....sure....you may want to think about that when considering why the First hasn't killed Buffy.
My biggest question is about the line that never made it into the ep, and I think that may be either because of time or letting a cat out of the bag a bit too soon....but how could refusing power disrupt the Slayer line when supposedly it is already disrupted....makes one think about time again.
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A possibly wacked theory on Nikki (spoilers GID and FFL) -- shadowkat, 15:46:17 03/10/03 Mon
In part III of your fascinating review, Sol1056 states:
This makes it particularly bizarre, to me, that any Slayer would've had the shadow play box, because in opening it and using it, any Slayer could've (or would've) experienced the truth of her Frankensteinan existence.
This made me remember something from Fool For Love that has always haunted me, b/c I'm not sure if I'm reading it wrong, that whole did Doctor Strange change sizes or change sides thing - I guess. (A story can really turn on how we remember or interpret a portion of it and whether that is misinterpretation or not.)
In FFL Spike tells Buffy how he killed two slayers, repeating endlessly that it's not the moves or what he did that made it possible but what they did. The first one dropped her weapon and got caught off balance - The Boxer Rebellion slayer. Then with Nikki -the subway slayer - she has him, literally. On top of him. Close to the kill.
But he somehow turns the tables on her. When Buffy asks how, Spike tells her that she "had a death wish" and in the flash back you see it, Nikki's eyes have a look of almost resignation, of exhaustion, not caring anymore. Now this has been the source of much arguement on the boards - half the audience argues this is Spike either projecting his own desires on to the slayers or his own warped views, the other half believes it is true how Spike said it and these poor girls do get tired of doing this eventually and do sooner or later want to know what it's like - that final release that gift...I'm personally on the fence regarding the whole thing. It can be read both ways.
But -- now I'm wondering if there's more to it than that.
What if Nikki did know what was in that bag? What if she did what Buffy did and like Buffy rejected the power?
What if she'd grown tired of the whole thing? Could the bag be behind Nikki's death wish? Did Nikki commit suicide?
Is Spike's jacket not so much a triumphe as a keepsake from someone who used him to commit suicide? Just as Buffy may have been attempting to use him last year?
Or Faith tried to use Angel in Five by Five?
Is the reason that Buffy has lived so long and survived, because she is connected to the world around her and isn't a slayer so much now as a guardian? That her role isn't just about killing the next vampire?
Not sure.
SK
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Re: A possibly wacked theory on Nikki (spoilers GID and FFL) -- Scroll, 16:18:43 03/10/03 Mon
When Buffy asks how [he killed Nikki], Spike tells her that she "had a death wish" and in the flash back you see it, Nikki's eyes have a look of almost resignation, of exhaustion, not caring anymore. Now this has been the source of much arguement on the boards - half the audience argues this is Spike either projecting his own desires on to the slayers or his own warped views, the other half believes it is true how Spike said it and these poor girls do get tired of doing this eventually and do sooner or later want to know what it's like - that final release that gift...I'm personally on the fence regarding the whole thing. It can be read both ways.
This is a very good question. Until recently, I've always thought that Spike was telling the truth, or at least that there was some truth to it -- that Slayers sometimes did have a death-wish and that all it took was for some vamp or demon to have itself One Good Day. In fact, Season 5 seemed to confirm this for us with Buffy's pseudo-suicidal sacrifice in "The Gift".
But we also know that Buffy has her friends and sister, family ties are what keep her connected to the world. These ties are what keep her from developing that "death-wish" Spike is so fond of. Now, if Dawn's love is enough to keep Buffy from taking the plunge again in Season 6 (i.e. in "Bargaining 2"), then can't we assume Nikki's son had a similar effect on her? The NYC Slayer is seen entirely through Spike's POV. So after the revelation that Nikki probably did have something worth living for, then I'm starting to lean to the side that says Spike was projecting his own feelings on to the Slayer. (Now, I'm not saying Slayers never develop a death-wish, just that it's likely Nikki herself didn't have one.)
So even if Nikki had learned the source of her powers were demonic, I don't see her developing a death-wish. I mean, Buffy learned her powers were demonic, and all it did was make her reconsider her attitude towards Willow, Spike, et al. I guess I'm leaning more to the side that, whenever or if ever the Council allowed a Slayer to develop relationships outside of the nightly death-dance, that Slayer would be more likely to survive.
BTW, I'm pretty sure the Boxer Rebellion Slayer was like Buffy, having family ties. Otherwise why would she even make the attempt to get the vampire killing her to tell her mother she was sorry for dying? So Buffy clearly isn't the first Slayer with family ties. Which is interesting, and hope will be made clear before the show ends...
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Re: A possibly wacked theory on Nikki (spoilers GID and FFL) -- s'kat, 19:00:38 03/10/03 Mon
Hmmm...what if we turn this on its head. What if Spike is wrong about the family ties hooking you to the world? Isn't part of what turns Buffy catatonic and makes her depressed is the responsibility for Dawn and her mother's death?
Maybe the responsbility is too much? Maybe, Spike's projection is the belief that ties to family keeps you alive when it's the reverse? Maybe that's the subversion?
I've known lots of women who got depressed with small kids.
They considered suicide, because the kid was driving them nuts or they couldn't care for it or they thought the child would be better off without them. We assume all mothers want their child, that they would never do anything to hurt that child - not true, unfortunately. Isn't it possible that the struggle between being full time mom, wage earner and slayer got to be a bit much? Look at Buffy in S6, wasn't part of her relationship with Spike about self-destruction, about dying? What if Nikki felt the same?
And if Nikki had been put in a position of being offerred the power but turned it down for her son, for other reasons...maybe she was depressed at the end of her rope when she met Spike? Also we don't know if she was a single Mom or if Wood was the son of the Watcher or anything else.
So what if she felt Wood would be better off with his father and her job just endangered him??
There's so many what if's. I don't think we can assume she didn't have a death wish just because she had a son, when it could very well be the case that the son was part of the reason she had one?
SK
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Better off without her? -- OnM, 19:26:02 03/10/03 Mon
*** So what if she felt Wood would be better off with his father and her job just endangered him?? ***
I think you're possibly on to something here, 'kat. This makes a lot of sense to me. In FFL, Buffy is despairing because despite all her supernaturally granted power, she is helpless to aid her mother, make her better, prevent her from possibly dying. (And indeed, Joyce eventually does die).
Nikki could very well have felt her continued existence as a Slayer was only endangering her son. If she died, the father or Watcher could care for him, and keep him safe from vampire or demon attacks, or at least safer. It wouldn't take much to rationalize this into a death wish, and then along comes Spike, and the moment seems as good as any.
Sad, but very logical, methinks. Good insight!
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Regarding mother's...something else occured to me(GID spoilers) -- s'kat, 20:40:57 03/10/03 Mon
Yes...I think that's it and what I'm wondering right now is whether that act of suicide (assuming it was suicide) on Nikki's part might actually be more ironic than we know regarding Spike and his own past history. Maybe Spike's mother committed suicide after he died? Or maybe she was sick and his death was the final straw? Or maybe he killed her? (My hunch is it's one of the former...)
After I thought about it, I realized, wait, maybe we're looking at this from the wrong end of the periscope so to speak...
What do Buffy, Nikki and the Boxer Rebellion Slayer all have in common besides being slayers?
1. Spike
and
2. the mother thing
Nikki = she's a mother, Wood was four at the time (Spike didn't appear to know this of course - but if he had would it have made a difference? Or did he? No I don't think so, he made a big point of emphasizing how she had no one.)
Boxer Rebellion Slayer = she tells Spike in Chinese, "Tell my mother I love her." And Spike says, I don't speak Chinese. It's not in repeated showings so people who didn't see the original broadcast or have DVD's probably don't know about it. But I think it's important on two levels:
1. It was her last words, dying wish. and 2. Spike didn't understand her.
Buffy in School Hard - who saves Buffy's life in School Hard? That's right Mom. And Spike is astonished and weakened by this. He doesn't turn and fight Joyce.
Later in Becoming he even sits and awkardly talks to joyce, telling her where they first met.
Then in Lover's Walk instead of just killing her or taking the book - he sits and has coco with Joyce. Then later in S5
we have Spike discussing Passions with Joyce. And assisting Dawn in Joyce's resurrection. And oh yes in Fool For Love - that last scene - instead of killing Buffy, he comforts her, and what is he comforting her for? Joyce's illness.
Which she clearly tells him about b/c he's the one who informs Riley the next day.
Why did the writers make a point of doing it and why do they appear to be building on it now?
What I'm wondering is - does the whole mother/sick mother metaphor work two ways here?
Maybe the writers are trying to say something about Spike and Buffy/slayers simulataneously?
So I got a few questions:
1. Did Spike know that Nikki was a Mom, would he have reacted differently? Probably not...
2. What is it about Buffy that attracted Spike? Why couldn't he kill her? And more to the point why didn't Spike kill Joyce? This is prior to his getting the chip.
3.Why were all three slayers - that Spike has met - all have mother issues emphasized?
4. How does this relate to Buffy and what a slayer is?
Is there something about being a mother, that is important here?
5. Were all these mothers single mothers like Joyce? Nikki apparently was. Was the Boxer Rebellion Slayer's mother?
Was Spike's?
Also I keep remembering Darla's words: "All that informed us as a human, informs the vampire we've become." Or something like that uttered in The Prodigal, Ats S2.
So 'm wondering if the key to understanding Spike and to understanding the slayer's true power has something to do with Joyce...something to do with the mother or rather sick mother? Because this would link back to the whole Gaia thing, Tara in Restless and the whole Love-Give-Forgive-Risk the Pain and of course Buffy's sacrifice for Dawn - the only person she's ever died for and if Nikki died b/c somewhere deep inside she thought it was best for her son...and of course Darla who dies to have Connor...mother's dying for their children.
Their children abandoning them? Their husbands abandoning them? Their sacrifice?
Something tells me it's all linked somehow.
Hmmm don't know just some more food for thought.
SK
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If I had to guess... -- OnM, 06:36:05 03/11/03 Tue
I'd have to say it would be the 'husbands abandoning them' issue. But I don't know or recall if Spike's mother was abandoned by his father.
Recall that when push came to shove, Spike tries to prove the sincerity of his love for Buffy by offering to kill Drusilla in Buffy's presence. To Spike's kind of logic, and sense of romantic 'ideals', there would be no greater sacrifice. Also, by the same 'logic', he proves to Drusilla that his love for her was 'real', because he will not allow her to live to see him with another woman. (Remember that when Dru left Spike, he lamented that she didn't kill him, which he saw as a betrayal-- if Dru had really, truly loved him, she would not have allowed him to live and see her with another man, which she knew would hurt him.
So, Spike sees the unswerving loyalty of Buffy to her mother, and vice versa, as something of great merit, and it overcomes his natural demonic inclination to kill them both.
(Note that Angelus had 'daddy issues'. Another personality contrast.)
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The Lazarus Heart -- Celebaelin, 22:33:59 03/10/03 Mon
The title is intended as an advanced warning come promise, as some readers may have guessed, what follows is a Sting moment from "...Nothing Like the Sun"
First the sleeve notes
"I do know that "The Lazarus Heart" was a vivid nightmare that I wrote down and then fashioned into a song. A learned friend of mine informs me that it is the archetypical dream of the fisher king...can't I do anything original?"
The Lazarus Heart (1987)
He looked beneath his shirt today
There was a wound in his flesh so deep and wide
From the wound a lovely flower grew
From somewhere deep inside
He turned round to face his mother
To show her the wound in his breast that burned like a brand
But the sword that cut him open
Was the sword in his mother's hand
Every day another miracle
Only death will tear us apart
To sacrifice a life for yours
I'd be the blood of the Lazarus Heart
The blood of the Lazarus Heart
Though the sword was his protection
The wound itself would give him power
The power to remake himself
At the time of his darkest hour
She said the wound would give him courage and pain
The kind of pain that you can't hide
From the wound a lovely flower grew
From somewhere deep inside
Every day another miracle
Only death will tear us apart
To sacrifice a life for yours
I'd be the blood of the Lazarus Heart
The blood of the Lazarus Heart
Birds on the roof of my mother's house
I've no stones that chase them away
Birds on the roof of my mother's house
Will sit on my roof someday
They fly at the window, they fly at the door
Where does she get the strength to fight them anymore
She counts all her children as a shield against the pain
Lifts her eyes to the sky like a flower to the rain
Every day another miracle
Only death will tear us apart
To sacrifice a life for yours
I'd be the blood of the Lazarus Heart
The blood of the Lazarus Heart
About the bird reference - Jungian I think (and thence Hitchcock I imagine) - a patients' wife once told Jung "At the death of my Grandmother and Mother, birds gathered outside their windows." The story alerted Jung to some apparently innocuous symptoms in his patient who Jung then directed to see a heart specialist. The man kept his appointment but the specialist found nothing wrong with him. On his way home Jung's patient collapsed in the street and was brought home dying. His wife was already in a panic, because soon after her husband had gone to see the specialist a whole flock of birds had settled on the house. The album is dedicated to the memory of his own mother. Oh, this post is intende to support the idea of Nikki's possible self-sacrifice btw. In allowing herself to die she protects Wood from those who might use his vulnerability as a weapon against her but also, less responsibly, allows her own escape from a life she can no longer cope with.
Sting is no stranger to vampire metaphors incidentally
Moon Over Bourbon Street (1985)
There's a moon over Bourbon Street tonight
I see faces as they pass beneath the pale lamplight
I've no choice but to follow that call
The bright lights, the people, and the moon and all
I pray very day to be strong
For I know what I do must be wrong
Oh you'll never see my shade or hear the sound of my feet
While there's a moon over Bourbon Street
It was many years ago that I became what I am
I was trapped in this life like an innocent lamb
Now I can never show my face at noon
And you'll only hear me walking by the light of the moon
The brim of my hat hides the eye of a beast
I've the face of a sinner but the hands of a priest
Oh you'll never see my shade or hear the sound of my feet
While there's a moon over Bourbon Street
She walks every day through the streets of New Orleans
She's innocent and young from a family of means
I have stood many times outside her window at night
To struggle with my instinct in the pale moon light
How could I be this way when I prey to God above
I must love what I destroy and destroy the thing I love
Oh you'll never see my shade or hear the sound of my feet
While there's a moon over Bourbon Street
Inspired by "Interview With a Vampire" according to the sleeve notes. I find the song more chilling when viewed out of the context of the other songs on the album but the conflicted nature of the first person narrative seems to fit well with a certain bleach blonde of our acquaintance.
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Big spoiler alert - you probably won't want to read this actually -- Helen, 05:59:09 03/11/03 Tue
You're so onto something here you wouldn't believe it. That's all I'm going to say, but basically from my trolloping adventures, I believe you have completely cracked Spike's mummy issues.
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