March 2002 posts

To the faithful, you were right! -- Hauptman, 15:36:52 03/13/02 Wed

I have been trashing Buffy more than usual this season and several of you took issue with it (in a nice way). I just have to say that "Normal Again" realy went a long way to making me a gushing fan again. Not that I had lost the faith, I was just waiting for sometihng to happen. It's liek I said in one of my other posts on the subject: I didn't like the season opener, I found it to long and when Buffy came back all ferral like Angel did, I was disappointed and anxious to get on with it. Then she told Spike that she had been in heaven and a whole new layer was added to the season opener and now I find it facinating to watch.

They did it again.

This season has been reborn in my eyes and this new layer will keep me occupied for some time to come. Now I am going to read all of your posts. I am so excited to hear all of your insights. I love this board and the show. Praise Buffy! Hallaluya!

[> And just think.. it's just going to get better! -- Tillow, 16:15:38 03/13/02 Wed

[> Welcome back to the team, Hauptman! -- Rob, 17:21:20 03/13/02 Wed

Slightly OT, but something that's buggin me.. -- Goji3, 17:58:19 03/13/02 Wed

How strong is Buffy...I just need to know one parameter of her strength...

I can think of only one real benchmark...Lifting the metal gate in 'Anne' she commented that she would feel it in the morning..whatever that thing weighed, is probably a bit over her 'Squat' limit...or her benchpress limit...I don't know, it might have been 'deadlift' for all I know.

I really can't estemate its weight well, but my best guess is somewhere between 1/2 to 1.5 tons or 1,000 to 3,000 pounds. but...

What do you people think, I think I'm wrong. So...

How much can Buffy:
'Snatch', 'Jerk', 'Squat', 'Benchpress' or 'Deadlift'?
Note: Guiness World Records for those weights are approx:
403lbs, 571lbs, 790.8lbs, 659lbs and 878.7lbs

Please, if anyone can answer (or put out an opinion...) please respond.

And yes, this is one of those fanboy things, and I aint ashamed of it...I just want to know (for comparison purposes).

[> Re: Slightly OT, but something that's buggin me.. -- Eric, 19:33:53 03/13/02 Wed

Bottom line: I haven't a clue. The perameters of the Slayer's strength are somewhat inexact. Slayer strength supposedly grows over time. That and some writing glitches make it hard to pin down. Plus Buffy wisely underplays her strength unless necessity calls her to use it. In one case, she virtually tore a heavy wood and metal door in Sunnydale High in half and off its hinges to get inside. Yet in "The Body", (after her strength had grown) she bounces off a morgue door locked with a small bolt and only breaks thru it on the second try. Of course she was grieving at the time.

Willow as Raistlin & the nature of magic (long and funny "uh oh" not funny "ha ha")) -- Farstrider, 18:07:39 03/13/02 Wed

Wow, great post CJL!

It reminds me of the DragonLance series of books. For those of you who don't remember (surely, you’ve read them!), there was a character named Raistlin, a modest wizard who wanted to be accepted into the Great Order of the Wizards or somesuch (I think it probably had a cooler title). In order to do this, he had to take a Test, where the penalty for failure was death. During the test, he was nearly defeated, but happened to strike a deal with a passing undead wizard of great power: Raistlin got the magic power to survive his Test, while the undead wizard took some of Raistlin's life energy, leaving him forever wracked by coughing fits, weakness and weird eyes . It sounds like Willow may have struck a similar deal, but (1) she may not know it and (2) what the other entity took is unclear at this time.

Anyway, I thought something similar happened to Willow when I saw Becoming for the first time this December (on FX), but then I forgot until CJL posted her post.

Those of you who are allergic to Off Topic posts should stop now.

So, what is the deal with Willow having black eyes and a sudden knowledge of how to cast the spell, anyway?

CJL certainly gives a good answer. But, Becoming also raised some questions for me that may have already been discussed on this board, but never in the show (to the best of my knowledge): what is magic?

I've read a lot of fantasy books, and am used to "magic systems" which have rules, guidelines, etc that explain (1) the boundaries of what one can do with magic, (2) why some people can use magic and some people can't, (3) the quantity or quality of people who can do magic, (4) where magic comes from, etc.

For instance, from my D&D playing days, I remember that wizardly spells must be memorized before use, and spoken with exacting precision to be cast correctly. The magic is also exhausting, resulting in limited amounts of magic that can be used without rest. These spells are also quite rigid, with little freedom to adjust them as circumstances develop (you want a little more or little less powerful fireball? too bad). A wizard who didn't memorize their spells correctly can't do magic. On the other hand, nearly anyone who is literate, and willing to dedicate the time, can learn at least some magic.

D&D also had religious type of magic - where characters asked the gods for special powers to do certain things, like heal friends or smite enemies. Lots of fantasy worlds have similar arrangements, where characters channel or guide some other external magical force (be it a God, a pool of power, etc) to do their bidding. This sort of magic is typically limited to a certain select group of people who are predisposed to being able to access this external source of power (“The Force is strong in this one”). This paradigm usually impacts theology in some way.

These are external magics – where the characters call upon outside sources of power to perform their otherworldy acts. In contrast, there are the fantasy worlds where a wizard is born a wizard, his power is nearly unlimited, and can be used to do almost anything. These worlds are like Star Trek the Next Generation, where magic/technology fill in for bad writing and plotlines. (uh, oh the enterprise is in a tough spot, lets have laforge use the transporter/sensor array/shields/holodeck to solve the problem – every hour needs a good deus ex machina). Of modern authors, Piers Anthony and David Eddings are among the biggest offenders here. (I would include Tolkien in here as well, but I am scared of the flameback).

Of course, there are lots of other “magic systems” – but I think generally most fall into an external/internal divide. As a tool for developing plot and character, the external paradigm has more to offer, as described so well by CJL.

I raise these apparently OT issues about magic because it is important to understand how Willow could perform the spell in Becoming and how she could become so powerful so fast. Was she merely channeling some other power, which (1) supports CJL's theory, (2) explains the black eyes but (3) makes the presence of spell books and other spell components seem silly? Did the magic come solely from the words and components she used, thus making (a) CJL's theory unsupportable, (b) the black eyes unexplained, and (3) also making the audience wonder why others don't use magic if it is so easy to do (why didn’t spike just magic the chip out of his head)? Is the power wholly internal, and Willow just happens to be full of power? If so, why do other magic using folks (the troika, Giles, for instance) resort to spell books and other external features?

I think we need some more info on the nature of magic before we can accept or reject CJL's theory. Thus, while I love the idea, I don't see it happening in the few short episodes we have left this season, since there is no room to explain all this.

Sorry for the length. CJL's posting prompted me to write this rambling and confused post, so blame her. :)

[> Re: Willow as Raistlin & the nature of magic (long and funny "uh oh" not funny "ha ha")) -- O'Cailleagh, 18:25:44 03/13/02 Wed

The magic used within the Buffyverse do seem, for the most part, to be of the fantasy/roleplay/Hollywood mould. In with this are mixed elements of Realverse magic (Wicca, etc). When it comes to Witches like Tara (ie Wiccans, natural Witches) the power comes from within, although external forces can still be harnessed. Magicians, on the other hand, (Ethan, Willow) use only external forces, shaped by their will. For these magics, specific spells and ingredients are required. There are also items imbued with mystical power (Gem of Amara, Sweet's pendant, Anya's pendant) which, in effect, provide the power for the spell. Therefore, anyone can practise magic.

[> [> Willow and the Nature of Magic -- cjl, 18:41:12 03/13/02 Wed

I'm going to defer to O'Calleigh here. He (or she) has concisely summarized the three or four separate types of magic used in the Buffyverse. Looking at them on the printed screen, I'm amazed that Joss and ME have manage to keep track of the rules for each and have fairly effectively kept each mage/practitioner within his or her own set of rules.

Tara = "The Natural"
Giles, Ethan, Jonathan = spell, book, and candle
Anya, Halfrek, and (groan) Xander = mystical object
Willow = ?

Willow's a question mark, because some posters believe Willow is a spell caster by practice who may actually possess some inborn magical power. If you don't go in for my possession theory, this might explain some of the inconsistencies.

[> [> [> Re: Willow and the Nature of Magic -- O'Cailleagh, 19:00:42 03/13/02 Wed

Willow's power, if not from possession (which I must admit is getting more and more feasible), stems, IMO from The Hellmouth. Its a point of mystical convergance, after all, similar to say, Stonehenge in the way that it is a powerpoint,a psychic centre or chakra of sorts within the Earth. The emanations from this affect all around in some way or another (note the abundance of magical practitioners in a town so small), much as kryptonite affects the people of 'Smallville' (the Series), or pollution from Springfield Nuclear Plant affects the local fish (Blinky in 'The Simpsons')!. The 'Willow-with-inborn- power'theory holds very little water for me as, although we are all born with psychic ability, Willow's analytical upbringing would probably 'beaten' that out of her and buried it deep within.
As to the possession theory, another possibility could be Willow's one-time cyber-lover, Moloch the Corruptor (featured word-Corruptor).

[> [> [> [> BTW.......its 'he' (lol) -- O'Cailleagh, 19:04:16 03/13/02 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> Re: BTW.......its 'he' (lol) -- Ditto...sir (NT), 19:12:02 03/13/02 Wed

[> [> [> Willow and the Hellmouth -- cjl, 19:10:01 03/13/02 Wed

An excellent, excellent point.

The Hellmouth has probably helped advance robotics to 22nd century levels ("Ted" and IWMTLY) allowed high school jocks to reanimate dead flesh ("The Zeppo" and "Some Assembly Required"), so why wouldn't it imbue a shy, 17 year-old girl with the power of the gods?

And this might tie in with what Joss has in mind for Willow at the end of the series. If Willow is drawing power from the Hellmouth, she (along with Dawn) might be instrumental in sealing the Hellmouth for the 200-year interregnum we've read about in FRAY.

[> [> [> [> Re: Willow and the Hellmouth -- O'Cailleagh, 19:14:21 03/13/02 Wed

Oooh...not having read Fray, I don't know about this- it seems to fit with my theories though. Spoil me!
(Why aren't the prophesies available for sale in our Universe?!?)

[> [> [> [> [> Fray and the end of BtVS -- cjl, 19:23:38 03/13/02 Wed

Gee, doesn't your particular parallel universe have comic book stores?

It's nothing too complicated. In the back story for FRAY, Joss tells us about a "legendary" 21st century slayer (not named) who sealed off all extradimensional access points, leaving Earth demon- free and lemon fresh for two centuries. By the time Fray is summoned, nobody has any idea what vampires ("lurkers") are, and she pretty much has to learn from the radiation-scarred ground up.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Fray and the end of BtVS -- aurelia, 19:28:38 03/13/02 Wed

jesus, it only took them 200 years to forget what vampires are, thats some lazy book keeping, or was this just because of nuclear winter or somesuch phenomenon.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Actually in Tales of the Slayer -- Rufus, 19:43:38 03/13/02 Wed

We learn that some people do keep books....it's just finding the right one that is needed.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Okay that makes me feel better -- aurelia, 20:09:12 03/13/02 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Fray and the end of BtVS -- O'Cailleagh, 19:55:50 03/13/02 Wed

Sorry, I misread your post....my theories involve the Hellmouth being opened, and this in some way is connected with Dawn-as-the-Key (and now a possible EvilWillow). Of course, this could lead to it then being sealed til whenever....

[> [> Don't forget Xander speaking Latin in front of the books... -- Solitude1056, 20:00:51 03/13/02 Wed

[> Magick in the Buffyverse (Long w/ some OT, geekish D&D discussion) -- Eric, 19:12:32 03/13/02 Wed

Read the Dragonlance Books. The first were pale imitations of Lord of the Rings, though they did get better later. Especially when Rais went evil. However, the best of them only equalled a B+ Buffy ep. Part of the reason was due to adhering rather strictly to the D&D magic roleplaying rules. These rules are static and (as you noted) and difficult to use. Worse still, Weis and Hickman slipped often and used the generic game term "magic user" instead of the more story friendly "mage", "witch", "sorcerer" etc. This and the cleric thing made for some awkward story telling that jolted players like me out of the story or confused non players. BTW, better role playing magic systems can be found in Shadowrun or Mage: The Ascension.
Magick in the Buffyverse is among the most complicated in any fantasy I've seen (and I've seen/read a lot). As near as I can tell the Buffyverse is very much like our own in the sense that magick is so rare and subtle that it can easily be disbelieved-and might not exist. Witches and mages with real power are extraordinarily rare - most being fakes or deluded. EXCEPT in Sunnydale, CA, a.k.a "La Boca del Inferno", a.k.a. Santa Barbara, CA (in our world), a.k.a. "The Hellmouth". Here powers from other dimensions stimulate magick so that any person that commits to learn it can develop some degree of ability. Xander, for example, once set a book on fire by inadvertently commanding it to do so in Latin. In "Superstar" Jonathon warped the fabric of reality with a spell roughly as powerful as a 9th level Wish - no mean feat for such a short fellow. Furthermore, magicians and witches with developed abilities such as the Mayor and Tara gravitate to Sunnydale like vampires and demons. Partly because its a natural draw and partly because it enhances their powers. But to develop those powers requires attributes traditionally ascribed to learning magick anywhere. I.e. great intelligence, heart, artistic ability, and possibly genes. And it doesn't hurt to have someone to help mentor, as long as you don't have to sacrafice babies to them... Or a Watcher who can't keep books with titles like "Darkest Magicks" under lock and key. Which brings us to Willow, who is undisputedly THE magick power in Sunnydale. In "Becoming", its apparent she channels some entity to complete the soul restoration spell on Angel. And if you care to go back thru the archives you can read the long thread on whether she actually did the spell herself, merely summoned the entity to work thru her, or was aided by the fabled "Powers that Be" ("Powers that Be what?" - Angel). I'll leave it to someone here who hasn't been cut off from S6 by bad cable service to explain the mechanics of magick and addiction. BTW, it appears that some BtVS writers have been influenced by D&D. This is OK, as long as they don't import the game system ideas into the show for the reasons mentioned above.

[> [> I wouldn't worry about the writers too much.... -- OtherEric, 19:40:05 03/13/02 Wed

I wouldn't worry about D&D's spell system being an influence on Buffy, despite the writer's apparent familiarity with it. Basically, because anyone who has ever played D&D wouldn't want to use the magic system for anything other than it. Its designed specifically with game balance in mind and is of limited use elsewhere. Buffy's writers and the show seem to be much more comic book influenced in any case and their magic metaphysics show it. Most forms or fantasy or literature that involve magic (and also most belief systems and religions that mention or touch on magic) use a dominant form of it that does not leave much room for parallel but alternate systems and traditions. In fact it is extremely rare outside of comic books, which are fantasy at its purest, where anything goes, and anything can be whatever you need it to be if it seems like it will work and be cool enough. We've even seen biomagic in Adam. The undergirding of this world and what goes on in it is very comic book and its not ironic or unintended that we have a Marvelverse, a DCverse, and a Buffyverse in the geek iconic lexicon. I think Willow and her particular form of magic will end up being whatever it needs to be in order to make the greater story of her journey the coolest and most dramatic but with a focus on cool (and not in a good way necessarily, but definitely in a comic book fanboy way) more than the dramatic (though that element will be and always is a factor on the show and with this arc also). The writers most likely know what that will be already but then again, they might not know yet. They may have left it open-ended for themselves. I think it will probably be something channeling related, but I lean less towards full blown possession when she is at her most powerful. Dark magic usually involves pacts (unknowingly and often expressed in terms of bad consequences on the show--like not realizing the spell you just cast released a demon as one of the conditions of it happening) with darker forces and it is been alluded to that it can burn you up completely. At its root though, despite the methodology, magic in the Buffyverse involves straight up reality alteration but always in a context of borrowing some (reality building blocks) from here without trying to upset the natural balance of things too much, almost as if the 2nd law of thermodynamics applies to both matter in terms of physics and reality in terms of metaphysics in that it can't be destroyed or created, but only changed.

We'll know more after the RPG comes out, as they're gonna have to codify some of this stuff and translate into rules. Fortunately the lead game designer is a good one, and I don't see him as interpreting the Buffyverse as having only one dominant form or type of magic. His other stuff is pretty good and mixes horror with a sense of humor well. It should be pretty good.

[> [> [> Hmmm.... -- Eric, 20:08:41 03/13/02 Wed

There's going to be a Buffyverse RPG? THAT will be a challenge. Most RPGs have a stage and a central theme. For example D&D is Adventuring in a Tolkeinesque fantasy realm, Shadowrun is Fantasy & Cybertech, Vampire: The Masquerade is You Too Can Have Pointy Teeth. The Buffyverse is a very small stage with BIG themes. Its not impossible, just...difficult.

Magick as written in the Buffyverse is much like comic books. But comic book magick rules owe more to the lazyness of the writers than creativity. They simply want an effect and do it without bothering to lend some excuse for why a rule that worked in issue 58 doesn't work now. Its the type of writing which satisfies children, but not adults. If Willow uses her abilities to save, destroy, or whatever to the Buffyverse and does it according to rules that don't make some sense, it detracts from the storyline. Its like an amateur DM who's world is always in summer and explains it as "magic". And just because only one magic system is used, it doesn't mean it can't cover most or all possibilities in that universe. Again I'll point out Mage: The Ascension.
Influences on the Buffyverse certainly include comics. But I would add that many of them are anime comics. Other influences are Asian Cinima, where martial arts superheros and superheroines abound and tragic endings are the rule, not the exception.

[> [> [> [> I agree MtA is great and very adaptable to Buffy -- Ete, 05:51:11 03/14/02 Thu

[> Re: Willow as Raistlin & the nature of magic (long and funny "uh oh" not funny "ha ha")) -- fresne, 19:18:52 03/13/02 Wed

Odd that you should mention Raistlin. In the recent hero's don't marry discussion, I was thinking of Caramon, Raistlin's twin, as an example of a hero who marries and then plot happens. But marriage. It was a good thing.

And if this is even necessary, Spoilers for the Time of the Twins.

However, back to Raistlin. Interesting thinking of Willow and Raistlin in parallel. Raistlin is intellectual. The smart one of the group. He is driven to seek more and more power out of a deep seated desire to never be freaking helpless again. He takes the test because he wants more power. He turns to the black arts out of a desire for power. He uses his friends, loved ones, twin brother in a quest for the ultimate power. To a god. Step by step, he falls into darker deeds. Not viciously. Not cruelly. But step by step. In the end, the only thing that stops him is the revelation that his obsession will destroy everything. Leave the world empty and lifeless. Leave Raistlin all alone in the dark. Will kill an innocent creature that loves him. Course by then. You know. Hell. Damnation. The usual.

Hopefully, Willow's insecurities don't drive her that far.

[> [> The Caramon point is misplaced -- OtherEric, 19:59:25 03/13/02 Wed

Caramon married another hero of the lance and then they raised more heroes. And they more or less retired after the war, because they could, because most evil was gone. Its like someone (I can't remember who) tried to point out that I was wrong because Xander is like a Sam, Merry, or Pippin and not a Frodo----which is completely invalid because LOTR is so fundamentally different from the Buffyverse that that logic doesn't work. In LOTR, the big bad (and the only one left, no more would ever come--there would never be a personified evil like Sauron or Morgoth ever again per J.R.R. himself in his later writings) is finally defeated forever and will never come back and nothing else will rise up either. If evil had been a more Lovecraftian or even comic-book style evil in LOTR (like in Buffy) in that it was a constant evil with a new big bad waiting to rise up--with some dark forces that can never be destroyed, but only contained, then Samwise never would have come home to marry Rosie. He never would have left Frodo if the quest to destroy the ring would have lasted forever. He would not have come back and gotten married. Aragorn would have died fighting instead of old age after marrying Arwen, and none of the fellowship would have quit and left and walked away. They were only able to after it was all over. On Buffy, it is more Lovecraftian style evil and so the heroes will probably never get a chance to marry and settle down like Sam and Caramon eventually did. If and when heroes do get married in comic books, sci-fi, and fantasy, its either to someone who shares the fight with them, or after the fight is over. Heroes rarely find someone who is normal that will understand what they need to do. It happens, but its the exception to the rule, and even then shows that normals who can withstand it are special and have to be and ultimately accept a life that is anything but normal.
But someone pointing out that Xander is not Frodo and then holding up examples that Sam, Merry, and Pippin aren't Frodo either, and were heroes that had normal lives both missed the extreme and fundamental differences between LOTR and the Buffyverse and also failed to recognize that each hobbit did sacrifice normal lives and happiness and should have died in so making that choice but somehow were fortunate enough to survive and have a chance at a normal life after all. And also that each of them would have continued to sacrifice everything forever if the evil would have been eternal--and basically, its like they made that choice anyway since their chance of victory was slim and the thing was likely to be a suicide mission from the beginning.

[> [> [> Marriage -- Rahael, 04:53:12 03/14/02 Thu

I wanted to comment on the marriage discussion thread in the thread now archived. I thought Manwitch made some excellent points.

Isn't the point of the Gift that there are somethings heroes should never sacrifice? Never sacrifice their love, their innocence? The last thing Dawn would have seen is Buffy trying to save her, even if the whole world became damned. That is one of the most moving statements about Love I have ever seen on the show.

BtVS have always stressed the importance of love, family and togetherness. Buffy is who she is because of her friends. Faith is who she is because she is alone (though not entirely by choice - she seemed to yearn to belong). The guide told Buffy that love was pain, and that her strength came from that pain. Therefore, Buffy's real heroism doesn't come from slaying vampires, but comes from the challenge of intimacy, love, pain and selflessness. A hero's journey relevant to us all.

I think the point about BtVS is that none of us are 'normal' - is Buffy really less normal than Xander who falls in love with demons? or Willow, or Giles? In fact, originally, Buffy is the one who appears as the uber-normal girl, who gives legitimacy to her 'three stooges'. Even Cordelia turns out to be odder than she thinks. All of us find difficulty in finding 'that person' who understands us.

Turning away from emotional engagement is far, far more easy than engaging with other people. The hero that turns away from that in my view, lacks something. But then I was never a fan of LofTR. I may be doing it an injustice, but I can't remember it well enough to comment on what it says about love and familial engagement.

[> [> [> I agree up to a point -- Scroll, 07:38:16 03/14/02 Thu

I think you're right that Sam and the others would've continued fighting evil with Frodo forever, and that Sam probably wouldn't have married Rosie if evil in the Tolkienverse had been ongoing like it is in the Buffyverse. One thing Wesley says in Billy that really struck me was that perhaps they (Angel, Cordy, Wes, Buffy, etc) are all destined to be alone because the mission will always take precedence over everything else, even marriage. But Wesley then considers the possibility that taking a partner from within your group, another hero/Scooby, is one plausible course of action. Wesley's old girlfriend Virginia broke up with him because she couldn't handle loving someone who might end up dead soon (kinda like cops and their spouses). But Wes thought since Fred was part of the team and had joined the fight, he had a chance (except she likes Gunn, awww, and *poor Wes!*)

Anyway, Xander and Anya probably *could* work out because Anya has proved again and again that she's not going anywhere. She's a partner in the Magic Shop, she thinks of ways to defeat a god, she helps take care of Dawn. Anya is part of the team. So if you consider the X-men scenario, this isn't like an X-men who takes a normal human partner who will, in the end, be unable to handle the pressure. This is Anya, 1120 year old ex-demon, wielder of heavy blunt words and Xander-love. She may want normal (marriage, house, kids, car) but she knows the fight is real and she isn't running away.

[> Re: I don't think it's so much Raistlin and Willow, as it is Rand... -- Nos, 01:05:39 03/14/02 Thu

Now, I am a huge fan of both Dragonlance and The Wheel of Time. Raistlin is my favorite character out of Dragonlance, hands down.

But I don't think it's so much 'a possessing force' causing her to do badness, but more like the 'taint' of evil on the male half of The Source that eventually corrupts and drives the user mad, no matter how good they are.

She's used dark magics. (IE: the book she refered to before giving Glory the owed pain, Darkest Magics). She's been tainted by them. It has, in a sense, opened a door.

It's really hard to explain the Taint theory without spoiling the entire Wheel of Time series, or sounding like a moron...(you'd be surprised how much you forget about nine long books...) But anyone who has read them would know what I am talking about.

[> [> I understand what you mean -- bienbizare, 06:59:32 03/14/02 Thu

I don't think that in the bverse magic is inherently evil though, or a taint. I think Will's problems are coming from interference of some kind, or her not being strong enough to handle the spells she's cast.

BTW, has the Wheel of Time finished yet? You said nine books, how many more is that man going to write? I think I got up to book 6 or 7 and got really tired of it. Jordan got a bit too long winded for me, and waiting 2 years between books is bad when you've got the massive collection of characters in that world.

Spike and Light (Spoilers through Normal Again) -- DustyMama, 18:22:12 03/13/02 Wed

Hi, I usually lurk, but pop in from time to time.

Anyway, I posted this on the Cross & Stake and thought it might be an interesting discussion here. It's about Spike's affinity for sunlight/light in general and how it could symbolize his possible redemption. The topic was brought up over at the The C&S because somebody noticed how Spike reacted to the sunbeam in Buffy's room in NA. I apologize if this topic has already been discussed here.

I believe that the use of light is important and symbolic, and definitely could represent a turn to the "light" side, seeing things in a "new light," or "moving toward the light" within Spike's storyline. When we're first introduced to William the Bloody Awful Poet in "Fool For Love," he's searching for a synonym for illuminous, finally coming up with the rather awkward effulgent ... the word that causes the Victorian Scooby gang to mock him. Later, when he meets Dru in an ally, she appeals to William, stating that he wants (paraphrased): "something glistening, something .... effulgent."

Fast forward to Life As Spike. Spike returns as a regular in Season 4 in an episode titled "Harsh Light Of Day," in which he procures a ring that allows him to come into the sunlight. His last battle with Buffy (pre-chip) takes place in that ep during the day. Of course, soon after that, he is chipped and begins the next phase of his vampire life.

At the end of the season, of course, was the wonderful "Restless," where Spike is again out in the almost too-bright sun. It's there that Giles makes his famous remark about "Spike being like a son to [him]." Could this be a play on the word "sun?" Giles also advises Spike to (paraphrased): "Swing higher ... a watcher scoffs at gravity." Perhaps a forshadowing of a "higher" purpose?

Throughout Season 5, we continually see more of Spike during the day. In "Intervention," he does his noble deed - getting tortured by Glory to spare Dawn's life - during the day. In "Spiral," he wanders through the desert with the rest of the Scoobies to escape Glory and find some safety. Prior to that, when a brain-sucked Tara accidentally opens the blinds on their van and burns him, Spike attempts to comfort her, encouraging her to "Play with Mr. Sunshine all you want."

And yes, in Season 6, Spike has been out-and-about during the day an awful lot. There was "After Life," where he hears Buffy's daytime confession of being in Heaven; in that scene he literally stands at the edges of the shadow, nearly walking into the sunlight (I wonder, too, if it's a coincidence that in this third episode of the season, Buffy describes the world as being harsh and bright. "HLOD" was also the third episode of Season 4). There was "Gone," where he paid Buffy a daytime visit. In "Doublemeat Palace," he actually comes to see Buffy at night, but comments on the bright lights in her workplace. In "Older and Far Away," he's at Buffy's during the day. In "As You Were," the lower level of his crypt gets blown up, forcing him to move to the more sun-exposed upper level (contrast this to the Nerds being stuck in the basement without a view), where Buffy finally walked into the light. In "Hell's Bells," he also makes it to Xanya's non-wedding during the day. Of course, it's raining, but he and Buffy have their most civil conversation to date. During their convo, he remarks how glad he is to see her happy and glowing. A reference to the "effulgence" Dru predicted that he wanted, perhaps? Particularly since the First Slayer described Buffy's love as "blinding" in "Intervention."

This is just my interpretation of these scenes. I'm probably wrong - argue away!

P.S. Sorry for the long post.

[> Sounds good. I hope you're right... -- Traveler, 19:17:23 03/13/02 Wed

[> Re: Spike and Light (Spoilers through Normal Again) -- Tillow, 19:51:55 03/13/02 Wed

You've done your research! Spikes propensity to hang about in the light has always brought up two different issues for me.

1. It contrasts sharply with Angel (as he was on BtVS). Angel left Buffy so she could have a normal life with someone who could take her into the sunlight. Well, Spike might not be able to take her out in it, but he has proven that he will meet her halfway time and time again.

2. It doesn't fit with all this crap about 'you belong in the darkness with me.' I've already posted a lengthy essay about this. It's in the archives somewhere, "Buffy's light" is the first part. But for the purposes of this tiny rant, Spike wants to be part of her world. She won't let him. He knows his place in her life and that's underground so that's how he's trying to reach her... but that's not where he wants to be. IMHO...

[> [> Agree and loved your earlier post! -- Ixchel, 20:32:39 03/13/02 Wed

[> [> Re: Spike and Redemption -- Lupe, 20:41:27 03/13/02 Wed

I don't know how much "Spike wants to be part of her (Buffy's) world" vs. how much he wants her to be part of his. I feel like it's been somewhat ambiguous - at times he has seen more positive than others...

But if he really wants to be with her, now that he seems to have realized that Buffy's not attracted to the dark, maybe he'll decide he needs to take different steps to be with her. Namely, what if he decides to make the ultimate sacrifice that a vampire could make? What if he willingly has his soul restored? Could he approach someone like Tara (Willow's out of the magic picture) and ask her to cast the same spell used by the gypsy's to restore Angel's soul? I know this would be too much "been there, done that" - we've already been that route with Angel, so why go there again? So I don't actually think it's in the stars for Spike - I just think (despite the repetition) it could be interesting. And unlike Angelus who killed to keep from being cursed with a soul, it would be an interesting contrast for Spike to seek it out. And wouldn't it be fascinating to see how poor William would react to knowing all the evil he had done as Spike?

As a final tangent to Spike and redemption: some have discussed how part of Angel achieving his redemption is in the very small and mundane acts of simple humanity, such as eating ice cream. But Angel almost never eats - while Spike has always appreciated food - a very human quality (he loved that fried onion thing at the Bronze) and we see him so often with a bag from the grocery store). Spike has always seemed more in touch with certain "human" aspects than Angel ever did.

Sacrifice as thematic in "Normal Again" (spoilers for Normal Again and "The Gift") -- DaseinExplorer, 18:25:35 03/13/02 Wed

I'm new to the board, and have decided to post - be kind to me! Here's my opinion: once again thematics recur and are played out in various ways from episode to episode often with the result that once apparantly stable ground has become problematic at best. In this case, we have the idea of the slayer's sacrifice changing everything once again. A postulate: suppose BOTH realities ARE real to the slayer (as can be seen from the convincing way the episode was presented). For the delusional mind there is no difference between the halucination/illusion and what is perceived by everyone else as consensus reality. This means that Buffy must literally choose between (in her mind) two equally "real" realities. One, of course has become much more preferable to her in her current state than the other - the ideal vision of her reconstituted childhood replete with both parents and a yet to be experienced future. This, of course, is precisely the world she cannot have if she is to truly save her friends and be the responsible adult she ultimately must become. Once again, as in The Gift, the slayer's true power is seen to lie in her choices, based upon her care and concern for others (like giving her life for Dawn) and not merely in her prowess as a fighter. Ultimately, in this case Buffy's choice is made even more poignant by the fact that she has access to a reality that for her is very real in a way that only she can truly appreciate. And yet, unlike the sacrifice that resulted in her death last season, this time one feels that she has truly, through what is perhaps an even more noble act (because it does not involve, even unconciously, fleeing from oneself) truly embraced for the first time who she needs to be. Who knows now what the future holds? By the way, I love this board!!!!!!!

[> Question -- Rufus, 19:01:12 03/13/02 Wed

If the reality of the Asylum Universe was so desireable, then why did that Buffy find the need to formulate such a complicated delusion, one with a familial bond yet? Was the sacrifice the one of giving up her family and asylum reality or was it the one of going back to being the slayer?

[> [> Answer (?) -- Sophist, 19:13:37 03/13/02 Wed

As I saw it, the alternative that tempted her was not the asylum per se, but the life with parents that was promised if she destroyed her "fantasy world". That temptation was real, but Buffy made the hard choice. I agree that that is a defining characteristic.

[> Re: Sacrifice as thematic in "Normal Again" (spoilers for Normal Again and "The Gift") -- Kerri, 19:01:38 03/13/02 Wed

Welcome to the board and Great post!!!!

When I was in the chat before someone suggested (sorry I forgot who Ete? Rahael?) that last season was about accepting death and this season is about accepting life. Death is a difficult lesson to learn, and something difficult to accept, but Buffy faces it in the most real ways possible in s5: by first losing her mother than sacraficing her life.

But when Buffy is about to dive off the tower she tells Dawn that the hardest thing in the world is to live in it, and it is percisely this challenge that Buffy must once again take up after her return from heaven (wherever that might be).

Buffy finally sacrafices her dreams of a normal life, and in doing so is freeing herself to live. But the ultimate reward can only come after Buffy faces the many hardships that inevitably lie infront of her is she choses to return the her life in Sunnydale.

I got the idea (and I could be totally wrong) that Buffy always sort of knew on somelevel which reality was "real". Why else would Joyce's word's convince her to accept Sunnydale? They can be equally applied to either reality.

In The Gift Buffy got to give her life and take the easy way out (now I don't believe this is why she chose to die but it did allow her to avoid the pain of life). But now Buffy must make an even larger sacrafice-she gives up what is easy-with the asylumverse representing her childhood-and accepts that to save her friends and to ever truly be free she must accept life-something that Buffy can now do with the renewed belief in herself that Joyce provides.

[> [> Re: Great posts all -- Dedalus, 19:08:51 03/13/02 Wed

[> [> Re: Sacrifice as thematic in "Normal Again" (spoilers for Normal Again and "The Gift") -- O'Cailleagh, 19:11:00 03/13/02 Wed

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but if the Asylumverse is 'real', then when Buffy retreated into herself at the loss of Dawn to Glory, and Willow astrally travelled into Buffy's mind......well I'm not sure what my question is exactly but this confuses me much.

[> [> Was me ! ;) -- Etrangere, 06:03:19 03/14/02 Thu

One of the thing that's interresting is that both facing death and facing life are themes that are conoted with the theme of madness and folly.
In s5, the madness created by Glory was also allowing to see the truth of Dawn's Key-ness, or giving Tara one of her many guide role by leading them to Glory. Doc, who is the one to open the door to death, is obviously a little bit crazy. Riley who in his self-destruction behaviour (attacking alone vampires, or letting them suck him) describes himself as being "crazed", and offcourse there is the death wish.
In s6, the madness thematics is there too, but instead of being eyes-opening, however ambiguously, it's all about delusion and being confused about reality.
wonder what it means...
sorry for the rambling :)

[> [> [> Course it was Ete! -- Rahael, 07:57:35 03/14/02 Thu

and you've brought up some more fascinating points here. I shall have to think on this some more.

[> Re: Sacrifice as thematic in "Normal Again" (spoilers for Normal Again and "The Gift") -- Jon, 19:38:14 03/13/02 Wed

"A postulate: suppose BOTH realities ARE real to the slayer (as can be seen from the convincing way the episode was presented). For the delusional mind there is no difference between the halucination/illusion and what is perceived by everyone else as consensus reality. This means that Buffy must literally choose between (in her mind) two equally "real" realities."

I find this explanation entirely satisfying even though it doesn't - or maybe because it doesn't - answer the "which is real" question. It seems like Sollipsism really is the problem here: Buffy experiences both realities as equally real and what she's having a PROBLEM with is determining if either of the realities are anything more than her own psychological projections.

Isn't it sollipsism that Buffy overcomes when she chooses to defend her old friends in the familiar Buffyverse (Sunnydale)? She is acknowledging their existence, their subjectivity, separate from her own, and she's saving them.

Of course she is leaving her parents in the lurch in that other place, but as someone pointed out in a thread below, she is solving the bigger crisis of the two presented.

This has started me thinking about how Buffy experienced the world she returned to at the beginning of the season. She believed she'd gone from heaven to hell - and she believed this even though all her friends were there, and she wasn't acting all that certain that she needed to save her friends (she kept running away from them and cowering). Didn't she also say something like "all the people I love were there" in reference to her heaven? Well then what's real and who/where are the real loved ones? I don't blame her for being confused and sucked into sollipsism.

It seems entirely possible that the choice she made in NA was the choice to finally return to Sunnydale fully for the first time since her return from beyond.

Buffy and Faith (spoiler through Normal Again) -- Veronica, 19:37:40 03/13/02 Wed

Was it just my overactive imagination, or did Buffy remind anyone else of Faith when she (Buffy) was first shown in the mental institution? Maybe it was just the haircut and/or makeup, but the first time I saw her I immediately thought of Faith in This Year's Girl...

Poor Dawn (Spoilers) -- CleverNickname, 19:44:22 03/13/02 Wed

Please Buffy don't kill me. I will be good.

Did anyone of Andrea Yates when Buffy was tying up Dawn?

Her own sister tried to kill her. Yes she was sick at the time, but Dawn can't help but be effected by that. Buffy tried to kill Dawn, and that isn't something that is easy to get over, regardless of Buffy's state of mind. Dawn can on one level forgive that, but just on a mental level, I think she will subconciously fear Buffy from now on.

I mean her own sister tried to kill her. How does one just "get over" that?

Dawn's self esteem must be at an all time low.

Buffy would rather be in an institution then be Dawn's sister. At least that is something that Dawn can't help but think.

[> Re: Poor Dawn (Spoilers) -- Dedalus, 19:49:49 03/13/02 Wed

Dawn has had it rough. And so has Buffy.

However, SOME people around here could apparently care less. SOME people think the characters are all selfish and whiny. SOME people are really, really messed up.

The lack of mercy on this board is scary sometimes.

[> [> Talking Dedalus off the ledge... -- Tillow, 20:03:30 03/13/02 Wed

It's been rough... I've felt it too. Is that why you've been so quiet? :)

But have faith, man. There are plenty of us who absolutely try to work this stuff out... even if it's painful and takes two more seasons.

Re: Dawn... I was more disturbed that Buffy didn't even turn to her in the end when she apologized. Maybe she couldn't face her.

Big pain.

[> [> [> Re: Talking Dedalus off the ledge... -- Dedalus, 20:11:43 03/13/02 Wed

No, Tillow. I'm not on the ledge, thanks. :-)

And I'm still around. I zoom in here at least once a week, and I'm usually at chat once or twice a week. I've just had other things going on. My internet time has been devoted largely to Star Wars now. You know how it goes.

I still adore this forum. Even though I know it's not really worth getting razzled about, it does piss me off when people say Buffy is self-centered and should have her teeth kicked in, or basically imply that mentally ill people are just lazy. But for the most part, I love and adore the old regulars. It's just gets a bit too crowded around here sometimes, if ya know what I mean.

Very nice of you to reply though.

[> [> [> [> Understood... :) -- Tillow, 20:17:43 03/13/02 Wed

[> [> [> [> Re: I'm so with you on this Dedalus -- curious, 21:24:19 03/13/02 Wed

---I still adore this forum. Even though I know it's not really worth getting razzled about, it does piss me off when people say Buffy is self-centered and should have her teeth kicked in, or basically imply that mentally ill people are just lazy.

Just surfacing to say I totally sympathize.

[> [> [> [> [> Re: I know ya do :-) -- Ded, 21:51:46 03/13/02 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> Curious! Where have you been? -- A8, 00:17:39 03/14/02 Thu

I remember you were posting when I first started posting at the end of last season and then you were gone. Actually, I've been scarcer and scarcer around here myself. Anyhow, nice to know you are still around!

[> [> [> [> And we love you too, Ded ;o) -- dubdub, 22:02:06 03/13/02 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> yes we do :) -- Liq, 22:17:50 03/13/02 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> Um, what they said. -- LadyStarlight, 05:46:56 03/14/02 Thu

...want your saber back?

[> [> [> [> Dedalus... -- Deeva, 22:51:07 03/13/02 Wed

Speaking of Star Wars, I just wanted to ask, what do you think of the 4 trailers that are out now? I just caught all of them online and I have to say that, as I am not a huge fan but have enjoyed the saga, the trailers look very good. But then, of course, they're trailers.

[> [> [> Re: Talking Dedalus off the ledge... -- alcibiades, 21:17:28 03/13/02 Wed

Tillow wrote: "I was more disturbed that Buffy didn't even turn to her in the end when she apologized. Maybe she couldn't face her."

I think it was because she wouldn't have saved Dawn. The reason she saved them all was because she couldn't bear to destroy Willow. Willow was her lifeline.

This episode really plays to me like a repeat of Primeval, even to the extent that the demon has prongy things coming out of his hands, like Adam, and that Buffy reaches into his chest to kill him. Dawn and the Glory crisis was the key to holding the group together despite the tendency that has entropy has on bands of high school friends. And here we see the group imploding and it has nothing to do with manipulation by Spike. It feels like this year is going to complete the implosion that began in Season 4.

[> [> Re: Poor Dawn (Spoilers) -- CleverNickname, 20:08:30 03/13/02 Wed

I think Dawn would have to be effected. She can be forgiving and understanding of Buffy on a surface level, but on a subconcious level there must be sense of fear and abandonment.

I can't imagine how I would feel if my sister tried to kill me, even if she was not in her right mind at the time.

Dawn loves Buffy and she will try to be understanding regarding what happened. But as a human being you just don't get over something like that.

[> [> Hey c'mon Ded! -- Rahael, 02:16:27 03/14/02 Thu

There are lots of us here who agree with you!!

It's a distinguised group, those of us who love the Buffster and her little sister (who isn't selfish! no she isn't!)

To be honest, the Dawn thing doesn't bother me that much. The kicking Buffy part does, more since there is something visceral there. I can understand those who find a character annoying, or badly written, but to look at a character like Buffy whose hallmark is an innate compassion and see someone who should be punished says more about the critic than Buffy to be honest.

Obviously feelings get heated about such matters. I was astonished in chat once, when I was defending Dawn, saying that I could remember being similarly whiny and self centred as a teenager to be accused of being selfish and immature myself. Actually, if Buffy is the kind of person who needs to be beaten up, and if Dawn is selfish, I'll happily stand in their corner, rather than with the beater- uppers and the unselfish. Again, distinguished company and all.

[> [> [> Re: Hey c'mon Ded! -- Rattletrap, 07:14:42 03/14/02 Thu

I totally agree with Ded and Rahael. I have always been a Dawn fan and continue to be so, and I'm constantly moved by how well MT conveys the strange mix of vulnerability and resilience that is Dawn. Both Buffy and Dawn have their whiny and self-centered moments, that is beyond dispute. This doesn't make them bad, evil, or deserving of a good ass-whuppin; it just makes them human. This show would be really boring if all of our heroes were Louis L'amour good guys who are always cool, collected, smarter and stronger than the bad guys, and have no obvious character flaws.

[> Re: Poor Dawn (Spoilers) -- Lilac, 05:48:02 03/14/02 Thu

Having once started a thread called "Poor Dawn" myself, I am very much in agreement with this feeling. Indeed, watching NA, and at the same time seeing the end of season 5 on FX, and all that grief that Dawn had to go through then, makes me think that if this was real life, the kid would herself be catatonic. It is amazing the child is still functional at all, and not just curled up in a little ball on her closet floor. Her pleas to her sister not to kill her because she will be good were heart rending.

I am curious to see how all of the damage done this week will be handled in future episodes. It would be wrong and unfair to have everyone pretend that everything is OK after this. All of them, except Spike, excel at denial, but this should be more than can be shoved under the carpet. The down side of being close to someone with super strength was clearly demonstrated in NA, and a years of trust was broken. Buffy didn't do what she did in her right mind, but her acts should not be easily forgotten, because they wouldn't be in the real world. You wouldn't blame a mentally ill friend or relative for hurting you, but you probably also would feel comfortable with them for a long time after the incident.

I don't understand the hostility towards Dawn that pops up here, as I have written before. I also don't understand the hostility to Buffy that has popped up in certain posts. I see both those characters as trying to do the best they can in an impossible situation. They are both very young and expected to do much more than others in their stage of development. It is to be expected that they will make mistakes, and take the wrong path sometimes. Both deserve compassion.

[> [> Re: Poor Dawn (Spoilers) -- Danielle, 07:14:40 03/14/02 Thu

Can I just ask a question? If your sister was mentally ill after being poisoned by a demon and hullacinating and behaving pretty psychotically how would you react?
Would you be supportive and try to care for them, perhaps bake a muffin, hold their hand, understand that whatever is happening is out of their control?
Or would you
Selfishly demand to know why you aren't in your sisters hullacinations, throw a tantrum and storm out when your sister tries to explain and apologise. Subsequently pack to stay at a friends house, guiltlessly abandoning your sister?
Dawn is as far as I'm concerned the steryotypical tenager that the show made fun of in Band Candy. The adults instantly lost all their brain power because they were involved in their own petty squables. Giles and Joyce stealing and indulging in public sex after knocking out a policeman, Synder upset because someone stole his candy and being a steryotypical whiny dweeb that all our high schools had tailing after the cool kids. The gang mocked the adults when Buffy said "they're acting like a bunch of us" and Willow says "I don't act like that". The scoobies all have distinctive personalities and were fighting to save the world at the ages of 15/16.
Not everything is about Dawn and she needs to stop being so self-centered and whiny. Every situation in the show she manages to make about her and I have had enough. Buffy's perfect reality involved a mental ward so it was obvious she wasn't in her right mind!
I realise my views are not particularly popular but I do feel it needs saying. I loved Dawn's character last season but she is sorely lacking growth at the moment. She was prepered to sacrifice her life for the world in The Gift. But this season any maturity she had gained seems to be lost. I am finding the character unbearable with her high pitched screeches of Get Out, Get Out, Get Out.
She is lucky she has people around who love her. Many children grow up in care with no one. Dawn is sulking because her big sisters friends don't want to hang out with her. She needs to get over herself and build a life seperate to her sisters and the scooby gang. If she wants to be an honourary scooby she is going to have to accept being treated like a child as she is significantly younger and in their persepective she is a child. She needs to spend time with her own peer group and stop being such a drama queen. She never seems to consider any one elses feelings any more and her treatment of Buffy has been horenndus. Stealing from Anya was low and clearly hurt Anya's feelings as she had trusted Dawn. Instead of apologising and acting like an adult (which is how she wants to be treated) she throws a tantrum. I hope the writing for her character improves because Michelle is very talented and deserves better dialogue.

[> [> [> Re: Poor Dawn (Spoilers) -- Danielle, 07:58:24 03/14/02 Thu

And I just thought I'd add that I think Dawn being used for the damsel in distress ("Dawn's in trouble it must be tuesday") is a pretty weak use of Michelles talents.
In OAFA a guy was bleeding to death in the front room, they were all trapped in the house and all Dawn can do is think of herself. She needs to learn to put others first. Next time Buffy is freaking out Dawn should not make it all about her.
She really is becoming a horrible steryotype. And Marti has been generalising in her interviews that she made no sensible decisions in her 20s so she is taking Buffy and all the characters down the same road. Whatever happened to individual characters such as Oz and Willow who defy categry and are easy to relate to on an individual level? We are supposed to sympathise with Dawn because she is a typical teenager and that's not good writing.
I would never have been as insensitve as Dawn if my sister was mentally ill for a short period of time. I would understand that her crazed hullacinations did not reflect on me personally because guess what! It's not about me. And no one else was in Buffy's dream world anyway apart from her parents so why did Dawn get so hysterical that Buffy hadn't put her in the mental ward?
I realise this is starting to turn into an I hate Dawn post and I am not proud of that. I jsut wish the writers could try and make the character vaguely likeable to me as I loved her in season five. I did emphasise with her in Blood Ties when she freaked out and cut herself. I was genuinely moved when she and Buffy were reconciled. But this season she freaks out for really insignificant reasons. I realise she has been through a lot and perhaps I should be more sympathetic. But I get enough whiny toddlers throwing tantrums in the supermarket. I find nothing entertaining about Dawn and I am not the only one who feels that way. If the writers are going to have a series centered around Dawn then she needs to be more likeable. JMHO

[> [> [> [> Re: Poor Dawn (Spoilers) -- Lilac, 08:46:52 03/14/02 Thu

I look at Dawn and I see a child in a lot of pain. She had learned that she wasn't real last year, a pretty disturbing concept, and now finds that in her sister's "perfect" world she doesn't exist. This would reinforces the feelings that Dawn has that she no one cares about her and she doesn't belong. Now, I actually think that the main person that Buffy was trying to erase from her life by retreating was Spike, but there is no way for Dawn to know that from the information she is given.

I think the value the character Dawn brings to the series is as the embodiment of the problem that can't be fixed by kicking its butt. Buffy can kick butt with the best of them, but she has a lot of trouble solving problems that require other kinds of fixes. Life is full of problems that physical action and violence won't solve -- problems like those that happen in relationships. Life is full of whiney toddlers -- you have to learn to deal with them too.

[> [> [> [> It's not b/c she's a typical teenager -- Tillow, 08:55:08 03/14/02 Thu

Hmm...

maybe it's because one year ago practically to the day she found out she wasn't real. Her sister shoved her, told her she wasn't her sister, asked her who she was. Then on her sisters birthday, it was confirmed that she has only been alive for six months. Now she feels Buffy only has to protect her because it's her job. Then her mother dies. Only a few weeks later, I might add. And though I love Buffy, she doesn't exactly know how to nurture a teenage girl. She says things in a hurtful way a lot of the time. When Dawn wonders about the coffin. Buffy just says, not now dawn. These things add up to a young girl.

Then a huge drama ensues (literally) with Dawn in a starring role. The two people besides her mother who have taken special interest in Dawn for who she is (Spike and Tara) get hurt and she internalizes this. It's my fault. I must be something evil. Then Giles almost dies. Then in the ultimate battle, her sister dies.

Now she is surrounded by people with fake memories of her who only care for her out of love for her sister and a vampire who made a promise and is riddled with guilt because he didn't fulfill it and a plastic replica of her sister who she sleeps with at night for comfort. (DAWN's POV, not mine)

Then her sister comes back. Dawn begs her to do it, she does reluctantly. Buffy has really been depressed and barely getting by. An even more vivid reminder that Buffy died for Dawn and was at peace and does not need her. (DAWN's Pov)

Her sister hallucinates an ideal world and Dawn is not in it. This time when she begs her to snap out of it, it's not enough. Only Willow's pain is enough to reach Buffy this time. Dawn is alone in this world, just like she said in OaFA. Buffy is the one surrounded by friends.

We don't feel sorry for Dawn because she is a typical teenager. We feel sorry for Dawn because of the character they have developed.

[> [> [> [> Once More Unto the Breach!! -- Rahael, 09:06:52 03/14/02 Thu

I'm surprised at how much animosity that Dawn arouses, compared to someone like Spike for example.

"In OAFA a guy was bleeding to death in the front room, they were all trapped in the house and all Dawn can do is think of herself. She needs to learn to put others first. Next time Buffy is freaking out Dawn should not make it all about her."

Now, I watched this ep in the fragmentary downloads which is the only method I have of viewing them for the moment, so please correct me if I get the wrong end of this ep.

But wasn't OAFA about the selfishness of more than Dawn? Did Anya rush over to Xander the minute she heard him screaming? She just looked dazed. Didn't she and Xander try to push Willow off the wagon? And I was struck by how Buffy ignored Dawn's present when Xander and Anya brought the box out and rushed to hug them. Ouch! And I found that her "get outs" moving, but painful, in the way a baby's scream is profoundly unsettling to all the adults nearby.

When Buffy came back from LA in Season 2, the Scoobies in particular Xander and Willow *did* make it all about them. Dead Man's Party was one of the most angry and resentful episodes of BtVS I've ever seen. And none of the ugly issues that were raised were settled. Buffy may have had to send her boyfriend to hell, but what was that compared to Willow not having her around to confide in about her boyfriend and her experimentation with magic? The only person who welcomed Buffy back with joy and compassion was Giles.

You also mention the stereotypical teenager. The stereotype exists because some teenagers do act like this and much, much worse. This week at work, I've been compiling a growing database of 'acting out' in British schools. We are talking about arson, attacks on other pupils with knives, beating up a pregnant teacher, raping other students, stomping on a younger boy's head, forcing another pupil to swallow tablets, picking up and throwing chairs at other people in class. These aren't isolated. The very reason I'm compiling them is because it's spiralling out of control in some schools. And this only the tip of the iceberg because I'm only dealing with the cases where schools were forced readmit these violent pupils despite the unwillingness of teachers to have them in mainstream classrooms. Goodness knows what you have to do to be expelled and stay expelled. Of course these are extreme cases. But the capacity for human beings to behave badly, even in ordinary settings is remarkable (or to paraphrase Ambrose Bierce, inhumanity is the characteristic mark of humanity).

And when I was a teenager I was by fits and starts the model of maturity, responsibility and compassion, and at others, incredibly selfish, histrionic and unbearable. I don't think a person is essentially unselfish and good, or another is selfish and hardhearted to the core. Part of being mature is realising that we can behave badly, all of us, and to be understanding of why others behave as they do. And to be aware that we can often be at fault too. One of the shocks we receive as we grow up is that our parents aren't the wonderful, all knowing heroes we thought they were. They don't always behave selflessly, they are sometimes blind.

I see more Dawson's and Joeys on my tv screen than I do Dawns, I have to say.

Human beings don't usually set foot on the grand pathway to enlightenment, and never deviate. They fall back, they wander. The whole point of Season 6 is that Buffy may have been wonderfully wise compassionate and at peace in the Gift, but life is still difficult for her, and in some ways she has regressed. To live a mature life is a constant work in progress.

"I would never have been as insensitve as Dawn if my sister was mentally ill for a short period of time."

Speaking from a purely subjective view point, I find that mental illness is incredibly difficult to deal with. It tears families apart, even more so because of the immense amount of love and goodwill there is. Mental illness of whatever kind, ranging from Anorexia, mild depression to psychosis. Mature adults find it hard to deal with, yet Dawn has been living with Buffy since she came back.

Buffy's loss of her mother has been an incredible burden dragging her down; and Dawn lost both Joyce and Buffy. It is hard to be good; it is hard to be likable; and hell is sometimes other people, even if you love them.

THE CLOD AND THE PEBBLE

"Love seeketh not itself to please,
Nor for itself hath any care,
But for another gives its ease,
And builds a heaven in hell's despair."

So sung a little clod of clay,
Trodden with the cattle's feet;
But a pebble of the brook
Warbled out these meters meet:

"Love seeketh only Self to please,
To bind another to its delight,
Joys in another's loss of ease,
And builds a hell in heaven's despite."

William Blake

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Once More Unto the Breach!! -- Danielle, 09:49:39 03/14/02 Thu

I understand that many viewers emphasise with Dawn and I wish I could sympathise as I find her very annoying at the moment and it is not improving my viewing experience.
I just can't get around the fact that Buffy was having a breakdown and Dawn was being so selfish. It is easy to say many teenagers are like that and that is no doubt true. There are many unpleasant people in the world who do rape and use violence against others.
But I don't want to watch Dawn treat Buffy so poorly as it doesn't endear me to her character. Buffy was suffering severe mental trauma and someone does need to take Dawn in hand and encourage her to see events from other points of view. E.g how her stealing would impact on Anya, the fact that the scoobies have busy lifes and cannot always spend as much time with her as she would like. I wouuld also like to see her stop expecting Buffy to wait on her. She is 15 and could easily get a part time job to help with the money situation. Also even very sheltered people surely could make their own breakfast at 15? And when Buffy comes back from a hard day of work rather than complaining about the food and telling Buffy to take the garbage out it would be nice to see Dawn help with the chores and make an effort to make things easier for Buffy. Buffy is severely depressed and the more Dawn makes the effort to reach out to her sister and make things easier for her the better her home life will be.
Dawn should be thankful that she has Buffy around to care for her. Not to mention the concern of the scoobies (particularly Tara). Many kids have suffered far more than Dawn. I myself grew up in foster care and it is not a pleasnt expreience. I have heard many horror stories about kids being physically and sexually abused. Dawn has lost a lot but she is loved and all the characters have suffered in their way. Buffy send her own boyfriend to hell! I don't see why we should constantly excuse Dawn's behaviour.
We should have compassion and understanding yes but I also firmly believe that Dawn needs some disipline. When others are suffering such as Buffy Dawn should be discouraged from throwing tantrums to get her own way or she will become unbearable as an adult.
I resent the idea that Dawns is teenager so what else should we expect from her. Irrespective of age Dawn is behaving like a spoilt brat and I think the writers need to do something about it. Dawn will not be able to carry of a show with herself in the lead part if she carries on the way she is currently behaving. Again JMHO.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Sympathy and empathy = two different things. -- ..., 10:30:54 03/14/02 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> Irrefutable points -- Rahael, 10:52:23 03/14/02 Thu

Yes, Dawn has it much better than many other teenagers. And yes, seeing her behaving in a self centred way must be annoying. And we should all be grateful for the good things we get in life. As Buffy sang to Sweet, she knew there were a hundred things or more to be glad about - all the miracles in life like family and friends. She just had to be like other girls, and then she wouldn't feel this way.

And we the viewers are asked to consider why Dawn isn't just incredibly happy to have Buffy back. Surely better a living breathing Buffy who is tired and uncommunicative than a robot to hug at night? Why she doesn't just buckle down and do well at school, when we know that she used to identify with Willow, because she was the only other person who enjoyed school? Why not just be responsible and helpful and mature? Having come close to losing everything, why doesn't she just appreciate it?

It's a reflection of Buffy's problems. Why doesn't Buffy just stay away from Spike? Why not try finding a job better than DMP? Why didn't Xander just marry Anya, why did he behave so selfishly? Why doesn't Willow just quit being pathetic, why did she even venture into that territory? Everything is unravelling in Sunnydale. The former hero is dabbling with the dark and isn't interested in living. Xander is rejecting the best thing in his life, the one thing he said that he would never let 'evil Xander' have. Willow cast a spell on Tara. Giles just abandoned them.

Every character, who has the potential to be the best they can be, is behaving the worst they possibly can, despite flashes of their true spirit. The only person who is exempt is Tara. And the reason it is unravelling is because the Scoobies did the impossible - they brought Buffy back. And the thing that should have brought them happiness is sending them into hell.

But its very sad that we live in a world where people have to go through such terrible things in their lives. Grow up alone, and unprotected. At such points I have difficulty bringing Buffy into it, or discussing it via Buffy. Hard to do it justice. And yes, Dawn the character's little pains pale into insignificance.

It's ironic that I have far more sympathy for Dawn than I had for my own younger sister - whose awkwardness, selfishness and whinyness was the bane of my own teenage years. My own sister has suffered more than Dawn, lost more. And Buffy is a better older sister; my sister a better younger sister. My constant refrain was "I've been through the same things! You don't see me behaving like that!" It bothers me now, but probably not for as long as it should.

[> [> [> [> [> This was lovely said. Thanks for theese wise words. -- Ete, 13:38:27 03/14/02 Thu

[> [> [> [> Re: Poor Dawn (Spoilers) -- Sophist, 09:46:12 03/14/02 Thu

Like Rahael, I'm surprised that Dawn's character can generate as much emotion as Spike's. Maybe they all can and I just haven't seen it. Dedaelus commented in another thread about the harshness of tone in some posts, and I think it's a good reminder to all of us.

The fact that there are fair points being made on both sides of this leads me to believe that ME has done a good job with the character. They could hardly repeat the (relative) emotional stability of Buffy and Willow, because been there, etc. Dawn's character represents a different take on what Buffy went through. Consider some parallels:

1. Like Dawn, Buffy discovered a secret about herself that made her previous existence hardly real (or else the new one was).

2. The secret led her to world in peril adventures in which she played a central role.

3. The secret was followed shortly by the loss of a parent (in Buffy's case caused in part by her new life).

4. Both had to start life anew, Buffy after moving and Dawn after even more catastrophe.

I find Dawn's flaws annoying. I think that's intentional by ME. I also find Xander's annoying, Anya's, Spike's (really, despite my many posts defending him). I admit to giving Willow and Buffy more slack. But in every case, the flaws are what make the characters interesting and the show the source of endless debate.

[> [> Well said Lilac and Tillow... -- Ixchel, 10:46:28 03/14/02 Thu

I feel deep sympathy for Dawn. To know you're not "real", how that that fact must gnaw at her, undermine the small happy moments, attack her when she is vulnerable. Of the two people who were able to truly convince her of her reality (Joyce and Buffy), one is dead and the other is mostly a ghost. In NA she is sympathetic and supportive until she realizes that Buffy is hallucinating a world without her and she is happier there (just like she was in "heaven"). Also, in her hallucination, Buffy is negating Dawn's existence, something Dawn must fear terribly. Could it be any clearer (to Dawn) that she is a weight around Buffy's neck? The same situation happened in DT, Buffy confesses that she killed someone, Dawn doesn't judge her or recoil from her, instead she embraces her. Then, when it becomes obvious (to Dawn) that Buffy is trying to escape from her again, Dawn withdraws. This person, her sister, seems to suffer from just being with her, how painful that must be for Dawn. We know Dawn probably feels responsible for Buffy's death by her reaction to Glory's injury of Spike and Tara, and Buffy's apathetic post-resurection behavior surely reinforces that guilt. But Dawn _has_ to cling to Buffy and the others, they are all she has (she screams for Willow in NA because some part of her knows that the others _do_ care about her, love her even though she isn't "real"). They are the only ones who truly know her, their regard is everything. She can go to Janice's (escape herself) and pretend to be a "real" girl and it will work for a while, but what she really needs is the group, just as Buffy needs her Scoobies to tie her to the world.

Ixchel

You're in love with pain (spoilers up to Normal Again) -- Grace, 19:46:31 03/13/02 Wed

Interesting how similar Spike's speech to Buffy about loving the misery was to the speech Buffy gave to Spike when he declared his love to her on the night they first had sex (I almost said made love but realized how NOT right that was!):-).

On that night, when Spike told Buffy he was in love with her she said to him "you are in love with the pain." (Or something to that effect.) Birds of a feather it seems (if we take Spike's claim that Buffy is in love with the misery to be accurate).

Now that Buffy's lost her marbles, does Spike have his rocks back? -- Traveler, 19:49:58 03/13/02 Wed

I've seen Normal Again three times now, and I still don't feel sufficently prepared to add to any of the wonderful comments below, but there is one small point that I don't think anybody has addressed yet. Namely, Spike didn't seem willing to take any bullshit from the scoobies or Buffy herself. Many people have commented on how Spike caved in to Buffy's wishes despite his declaration "now I've got my rocks back." This episode, I think we saw more resentment on Spike's part for Buffy (and the scooby gang's) attitude than ever before. This also the first time in a LONG time that we've seen Spike use his powers of perception and language to actively try to hurt a member of the gang (Xander). Are we seeing a new Spike, or is this just another temporary change?

Also, what happened to sweet way Buffy and Spike were interacting at the wedding. In this episode, Buffy went out of her way to avoid Spike and told him "you aren't a part of my life." A lot of her decision to flee to asylumreality seemed driven by her hatred (or whatever) of him. Where did all this negative emotion come from so soon after they seemed to be at peace with each other? Also, didn't any of you find it strange that Buffy compared her relationship with Spike with her role as a Slayer in terms of unbelievability. After all, plenty of perfectly sane women have been in relationships with the wrong guy; why would she take her sexcapades with Spike as proof of insanity?

Also, has anyone noticed how it always seems Xander who "walks in" on Spike and Buffy having a moment and makes some snarky comment? I think I understand now how he failed to put 2 and 2 together about Buffy and Spike so far: Xander is denial boy! He doesn't know that they are/were an item because he doesn't want to know. The idea that Buffy could have feelings/sexual desire for Spike has always sickened him, although I don't know if this is because of jealousy, bigotry, or something else.

Does it seem to anybody else that Tara has become a lot more powerful as a witch? She was tossing off spells in that fight scene one right after another. Also, has anybody ever compared the COLOR of Tara's magic with Willow's? Tara's was green this episode (don't know if it always is) and thus symbolizes nature and tranquility, while Willow's magic is usually red, which symbolizes power, blood, and anger.

Um... more thoughts as I get them. Questions/comments always welcome.

[> Sorry, spoilers for Hells Bells and Normal Again above -- Traveler, 19:53:19 03/13/02 Wed

[> Colors in spells... hmm. -- Solitude1056, 23:28:17 03/13/02 Wed

I've got to think about your other comments, but this one caught my eye (and my late-night brain):

has anybody ever compared the COLOR of Tara's magic with Willow's? Tara's was green this episode (don't know if it always is) and thus symbolizes nature and tranquility, while Willow's magic is usually red, which symbolizes power, blood, and anger.

Y'know, I never noticed before. Wow. A subtle comment on the part of the writers, as to the emotions each holds when she does magick? I shall definitely have to go back and do some rewatching - or perhaps there's someone else on the board perceptive enough to have noticed and kept track?

[> [> Re: Colors in spells... hmm. -- juliaabra, 00:28:13 03/14/02 Thu

in omwf, the twirly spells in the park during tara's song are bluish for tara and pinkish orange for willow. silly me--i thought it was kind of like how laura ingalls always wore blue and mary wore pink. how could i have been so color-blind! nothing in the buffyverse is without subtext!

[> [> Tara vs. Willow & Amy -- Scroll, 06:25:26 03/14/02 Thu

In OMWF, Tara's magic is white-blue and Willow's is a vibrant pink/orange. In Smashed, Amy's magic is bright green. I can't remember what colour Tara's magic is in Normal Again, but in Bargaining most of her spells were blue (the ball of energy she used to rescue Anya from the demon biker and the ball of light she used to find Willow and Xander). In OaFA, her spell to release everyone from the house was kinda reddish but that might have been because she had used ingredients (the red mist rose from her bowl of stuff, not from her body itself).

One thing I've noticed is that while Willow and Amy are very brightly coloured, Tara's magick seems more subtle and closer to white, a very light blue. Perhaps this means she is less powerful but I prefer to see it as she is purer in her intentions with magic and that is reflected in the colour. Willow and Amy are very flashy, especially in Smashed when they're toying with the Bronze patrons. The FX people probably made them flashy to reflect their attitudes. But that's just MHO.

[> Re: Now that Buffy's lost her marbles, does Spike have his rocks back? -- neaux, 04:40:56 03/14/02 Thu

Maybe after Xander and Anya saw the buffybot straddling Spike in Season 5.. it was so disturbing for him.. that Denial was a good route to go?

He probably could never get that image out of his head.

What if... (Normal Again spoilers) -- Darby, 20:16:06 03/13/02 Wed

Acknowledgement (but not a disclaimer): this is my wife's idea.

What if Buffy is the Slayer and in a mental hospital?

Could the final (or would it be?) ep be Buffy getting out of the asylum and being met outside by Giles? (Or another Watcher?)

Slayers, as just established in Fray, have access to the experiences of their forebears - a medicated Buffy might have been tapping into this all that time.

And - I'm adding this on my own - the person in the asylum, who has been experiencing Buffy's life and filtering their own existence through it, could be someone new, someone to be the next Slayer...someone to hire when SMG's contract expires...

Just a possibility...

OT........Pagans? -- O'Cailleagh, 20:19:01 03/13/02 Wed

Just wondering if there are any other Wiccan/Pagan posters here.......What are your views on the way that the current Magic/Witchcraft storyline is going?

[> Re: OT........Pagans? -- AgnosticSorcerer, 21:01:17 03/13/02 Wed

I'm agnostic and I do not follow any religion at the moment be it neopagan or abrahamic, but I do practice magicks. Hence, the handle :o)

I'm not too sure how I feel about the current storyline involving magick. Right now I can't get over the addiction metaphor and am quite disappointed as I loved to see Willow in action (I can't tell you how many times I've watched "Tough Love" on tape).

The overall Buffyverse theories of magick seem to be corroborated or at least reconciled within realverse magickal theories. Theoretically, the spells Willow has casted in the past are quite possible, but the means which the Buffyverse presents them to be made manifest are definately questionable. In other words, even though most of the results are possible the rituals themselves are unsound. (I know many people will disagree with me as neopagan magickal theories are quite different from my area of genre, but both paradigms are just that: theoretical.)

The only aspect of Buffyverse magick that bothers me is the constant referral to Wicca and Wiccan ethics, but often times the show does not even get those aspects in proper alignment with the realverse.

I like many other fans feel that there is no need for Willow to go "cold turkey" on spell casting, but rather refrain herself from doing big, dark mojo. Tara won't always be around to help the gang and Willow's lack of self-confidence could eventually lead to something fatal because she and the Scoobies have plummelled into her mind that magick is bad for her. Though, I am satisfied with another poster's psychological analysis of Willow. I especially like the idea that her current cold turkey method will blow up in everyone's face.

I have more to say, but I'm at a loss for the moment. Perhaps I will respond to others posts.

(Off topic of the off topic post: This is my third post and I believe my other two posts have been deleted. If so, could someone explain why?)

[> [> Re: OT........Pagans? -- O'Cailleagh, 21:18:24 03/13/02 Wed

Maybe your posts have 'dropped off' at the bottom...they should turn up in the archives at some point, I think. If not, well all I can say is, when I've had posts deleted, it seems to be because they are very off topic-not that it has been explained to me. What were your previous posts? I seem to remember reading one recently, but I can't remember the content (your name sticks in my head though). As to your reply...well I'll wait to see if other magickal people reply before I comment fully- but I'm not surprised by your thoughts on it.....

[> [> Look in the Archives up top 1-5 -- Rufus, 21:35:09 03/13/02 Wed

Sometimes topics drop into the archives faster than other threads due to activity on the board not being deleted...:)

[> [> [> Re: Look in the Archives up top 1-5 -- AgnosticSorcerer, 22:06:57 03/13/02 Wed

Thanks!

[> [> Question though in the Buffyverse is Magic morally neutral? -- Charlemagne20, 22:13:22 03/13/02 Wed

Though hardly a biased witness as a nonbeliever in magic and raised in a household that treated it poorly I must ask the question whether you don't think that the appeals to the Gods (who take on decidely vile tones in the Buffyverse and may just be a form of a evolved demon if Glory is any indication) and darkness seem to indicate magic is actually corrupting the Buffyverse. Tara keeps herself well regulated in her magical practices but frequent use of magic seems to be dark indeed on all fronts...

The Hellmouth itself might be effective on such things though so it may be just reminescent of Sunnydale

[> [> [> Re: Question though in the Buffyverse is Magic morally neutral? -- AgnosticSorcerer, 22:25:28 03/13/02 Wed

"Though hardly a biased witness as a nonbeliever in magic and raised in a household that treated it poorly I must ask the question whether you don't think that the appeals to the Gods ... and darkness seem to indicate magic is actually corrupting the Buffyverse."

-- I do not think that the corruption and darkness you speak of it so much a reflection of magick itself, but for the lack of thought put forth often by the magician. It could even be a duality: you get something - you lose something (if you're not careful and depending on the spell itself).

Now, about Glory and the nature of the gods themselves, I think that's a whole nother issue. I'd be very much interested in knowing what the gods of our dimension were doing while Glory was reaking havock on their turf and planning to destroy their worlds.

[> Re: OT........Pagans? -- Wisewoman, 21:18:32 03/13/02 Wed

There are several pagans who are or have been regular posters here. I am, and Rowan (although we haven't heard from her lately) and I believe pagangoddess and celtic cross, and I know there's some I've forgotten.

We've had the Buffyverse magic vs Realverse magick discussion several times over the last year. Bottom line: there are as many different forms of Realverse paganism as there are pagans, so some or none of our practice is going to coincide with the Buffyverse, which is, in any case, a fantasy. Never heard from anyone who could float a rose...

;o)

[> [> Re: OT........Pagans? -- AgnosticSorcerer, 21:29:39 03/13/02 Wed

"Bottom line: there are as many different forms of Realverse paganism as there are pagans, so some or none of our practice is going to coincide with the Buffyverse, which is, in any case, a fantasy."

-- Hear Hear! If you ever check the AOL postboards under Pagan and find the folder "Media Misrepresentation" Willow is a topic often discussed. They do not like her very much.

[> [> Re: OT........Pagans? -- O'Cailleagh, 21:32:08 03/13/02 Wed

Its not so much that I'm looking for parallels between 'our' magick and 'their' magic, just looking to see what other Pagans feel about the current addiction/magic=evil type storyline, and the various (recent) postings on the nature of Buffyverse magic. I appreciate that this has been discussed previously, but I did not come across any of it on my (brief) perusal of the archives. (also sorry if it seems elitist asking for Pagan opinions-just interested as a Pagan myself)
I am fully aware that 'there are as many forms of Realverse Paganism as there are Pagans'-again, just comparing notes, as it were. As for floating a rose....practise makes perfect!

[> [> [> Re: OT........Pagans? -- AgnosticSorcerer, 22:05:25 03/13/02 Wed

"just looking to see what other Pagans feel about the current addiction/magic=evil type storyline... "

-- I trust that ME has specific plans for this particular storyline, but even still it's weird. It is akin to when Angel was mortal for an episode. I just can't wait till she gets all magickal again (hoping she will anyway).

I don't think ME is trying to say that magic = evil, but moreso that Willow's dependency on and carelessness with magick will only lead to pain, hurt, and more trouble. This is also possible in thr realverse.

" ...and the various (recent) postings on the nature of Buffyverse magic."

-- I would like to think that most of the magickal theories and "laws" of magick that apply to the realverse also apply to the Buffyverse. For instance, anyone can do magick with the proper training (be it self-training or apprentice-ship). Anything is possible magickally if the following conditions are met: a) you know how to make it happen and, b) you are adept enough to pull it off. That being said the types of magick that I observe in the Buffyverse are:

1. Magicks dependent on nature (i.e. Tara)
2. Magicks limited only by the will and experience of the magician (i.e. Willow, Amy)
3. Magicks bestowed upon a magician by another being (i.e. Anyanka and possibly Willow as suggested elsewhere)
4. Magicks which are wielded by the very nature of the beings (i.e. transuding furies)

[> [> Dub-dub - I posted an 'Hello, all' from Rowan... -- Marie, 08:07:53 03/14/02 Thu

...but it was archived very quickly. She hasn't been very well lately, but is getting better. She e- mailed me, and said to say hi to everyone here for her. She'll be back soon!

Marie

[> [> [> Thanks, Marie ;o) -- dubdub, 10:33:19 03/14/02 Thu

I must have missed that. Glad to hear she's getting better.

[> Re: OT........Pagans? -- lurae, 02:30:24 03/14/02 Thu

It infuriates me!! They're avoiding serious ethical issues by disguising them as a medical problem. It completely undercuts Willow's free will, and thereby relieves her of any responsibility. It's completely anti-existential,and goes against the very core of most pagan belief.

Everyone has their own rules and definitions so I can't speak for all pagans, but in general the whole "an ye harm none do what ye will" and the rule of three, or some similar karmic principle are the ethical guidelines for wiccans, witches, and other assorted pagans, or so I have been led to believe. There aren't hard and fast thou shalt not rules like the commandments, it's all up to the individual to choose what is appropriate and right to do in a given situation, and then accept the consequences of that choice. Take the harm none bit--it's impossible. Eating, and therefore living itself, by definition involves harming the food, whether it be plant or animal. We choose our own limits of our free will and accept that responsibility.

I liked the ethical questions raised by Tara's spell that blinded the gang to demons and by Willow's power trips, and especially by Buffy's resurrection. Choosing to do that grisly spell to bring her friend back from hell posed a serious ethical dilemma that was conveniently copped out on by taking away Willow's free will in that choice. If she was addicted, then she's not in control of herself and not responsible for her actions. I feel really cheated by that, and I just keep hoping that somehow the ethics are going to come back into the story...

I'm not usually bothered at all by the differences between the show's version of witchcraft and the real stuff. It never seemed like a big deal...I mean no one who is open-minded enough to watch a show with demons, witches, and lesbians is going to really believe that wiccans carry on with apocalyptic demons or make soda machines float. I really like Tara. She has done questionable spells, but she seems to recognize and deal with that. Willow has definitely been on a scary power trip at least since last season, and I just don't understand why joss would suddenly back away from this beautiful potentially angstful guilt and redemption theme. Since when does joss avoid angst?!!

As they keep playing up the addiction story magic seems to turn more and more inherently evil, instead of being a neutral tool of an individual's will. The comment Sam makes to Willow about the shamans' being consumed by their dark magic just set me off all over again. I can't even make sense of plot anymore...how is the same magic Giles and Wesley have used for years, and that Tara seems to be using just fine now, suddenly mystical crack for Willow, Amy, and the shamans? If it were any less serious an addiction, why can't she learn to control herself and still do magick? Maybe it's genetic...(snort!) And doesn't anyone see that there's a difference between getting your kicks by making pencils float and by raising the dead? Even if she's addicted to magick in general, didn't she choose the particular spells that did things like mess with her friends minds? I try not to get myself worked up about every silly misrepresentation of wiccans, but this addiction thing has really ticked me off. (as if you haven't guessed by now) :P It's internally inconsistent, and it implies that witchcraft is immoral regardless of the practitioner's intent, because the witch isn't in control of herself.

Sorry about the exceedingly long rant, but it's been building for awhile--yelling at the tv during commercial breaks just isn't that satisfying. wow...this is my first post, and i've dumped a novel on y'all. Sorry!

[> [> Re: OT........Pagans? -- O'Cailleagh, 07:43:30 03/14/02 Thu

Yes, I agree. I also try not to get all uppity with misrepresentations, but when Willow started to get involved with the Craft, it did seem 'realistic' (apart from the newt's eyes!) and was a breath of fresh air after years of media witches. Especially after Catherine Madison. And when Tara joined the cast things looked even better (although I had trouble with the gay storyline for about five minutes...strange really since I am gay myself!). Even Willow's occasional power trips were acceptable, and even understandable-I imagine we've all had to deal with such problems ourselves, so seeing it there on the screen can be helpful to Witches going through similar struggles.
However, the direction it is going in at present (especially if you believe the spoilers out there) is not a good one, I really hope that ME find some way around saying that using magic sends you evil/crazy, because although there is more to the storyline than that, that's all most people are going to see (and therefore relate it to Realverse Witches).

Metaphysics and epistemology (spoilers) -- XanderFan, 20:51:14 03/13/02 Wed

Metaphysics: a division of philosophy that is concerned with the fundamental nature of reality and being and that includes ontology, cosmology, and often epistemology.

Once upon a time,
I, Chuang Tzu,
dreamt I was a butterfly,
fluttering hither and thither,
to all intents and purposes a buterfly.

I was conscious of only following my fancies as a butterfly,
and was unconscious of my individuality as a man.

Suddenly I awakened,
and there I lay, myself again.

Now I do not know
whether I was then a man
dreaming I was a butterfly,

or whether I am now
a butterfly dreaming
I am a man.

CHUANG TZU

[> Re: Metaphysics and epistemology (spoilers) -- skpe, 06:22:24 03/14/02 Thu

This EP reminded me of several paintings done by a French impressionist ,(Serrate?). one depicts a pipe and under it the
words 'This is not a pipe'. The second shows a canvas on an easel and the painting on this canvas is a continuation of the reality (?) behind it

[> [> Rene Magritte: Belgian and Surrealist, to answer your Q-mark -- Rahael, 06:31:02 03/14/02 Thu

Did this show harm our WSOD (Spoilers) -- Jacobs Ladder, 21:19:21 03/13/02 Wed

http://www.otherworlds.net/other worlds.net/techterm.htm

Willing Suspension of Disbelief" - a phrase coined by Samuel Taylor Coleridge for the act by which a reader (or a viewer) enters into a fictional world or setting. They know this is fiction, but for the time being they will suspend their disbelief and let on they believe what is being told them. Only then can they experience all the emotional or intellectual thrills of fiction, by identifying with the characters. In return, the writer is supposed to give them a good time without insulting their intelligence. Anything the writer does that jars or breaks the willing suspension of disbelief is a foul in the game, a bit of bad work. Temporary belief is hard enough in our genre: if clumsy construction makes it too much harder, the reader will leave.

We know Buffy isn't real. Xander isn't real. Nor is Willow. But for an hour each week we suspend all of that, and act and relate to them like in some sense they are real. And sometimes fictional characters become just as real or even more real, than real people.

My question then is by pointing out the inconsistancies in the Buffyverse in this program, did that jar our Suspension of Disbelief too much?

[> YES. -- LeeAnn, 21:34:58 03/13/02 Wed

I like my fantasies to include the fantasy that it's not a fantasy.

Normal Again broke that compact between the audience and the writers, and not in a sly or funny way (not like Albert Finny saying "Help!" to the camera in Tom Jones). It broke it in a way that says that the fans that take BtVS seriously are crazy.

Remember when William Shatner went on Saturday Night Live and mocked Trekkies and told them to "Get a Life."

This was Mutant Enemy telling us to get a life.

[> Re: Did this show harm our WSOD (Spoilers) -- Wisewoman, 21:59:57 03/13/02 Wed

Well, yeah, it did mine. But I'm getting over it.

;o)

[> [> Re: Did this show harm our WSOD (Spoilers) -- DEN, 22:56:03 03/13/02 Wed

I say it did not. This was more of an inside joke, as opposed to, say, some of the later scripts of "Moonlighting," which overtly satirized the show and invited viewers to join the mockery. One of the engaging aspects of "Buffy " is its repeated shoutouts to other shows and genres. NA is a kind of shoutout to "Buffy" itself. The question of which 'verse is real that the ep raises for many viewers is a reasonable one in the fantasy genre--especially because the "Asylumverse" we're shown, in what it includes and omits, could credibly be either an alternate reality or a construct of Buffy's imagination

[> Not at all...It strengthened my faith in the brilliance of ME -- Rob, 23:06:06 03/13/02 Wed

If it was conclusive that Buffy actually was a mental patient, it might have...

But it wasn't conclusive. There was just as much evidence for the asylum being the dream as there was for Sunnydale being the dream.

Just because that last shot was of the asylum does not mean that that is the real world. Buffy had not yet taken the antidote yet at that point, so I see that as the last remnants of her delusion.

I think this was a very important episode for Buffy, internally, psychologically, and symbolically. I think it encompassed an inner struggle that Buffy has been coping with all year. Now, strengthened with Joyce's helpful, maternal words, I think Buffy can finally externalize these feelings of estrangement and disconnectedness, cope with, and finally overcome them.

The episode is not called "Normal Again," I believe, to imply that she has awoken from her coma. It is called "Normal Again," because this asylum hallucination has helped Buffy cope with reality (Sunnydale). She can finally be a part of the real world once more. She is finally normal again!

I think this episode was brilliant, because it was a mindbender that, I believe, on the one hand, revolved around an untrue concept--Buffy being in the institution--and, yet, this was by no means a filler episode. This episode said more about Buffy as a character than any other in recent memory. And, ultimately, it will help Buffy more than any other this year, to reassimilate with Sunnydale, the real world. This episode raised many questions about reality, but I think they were red herrings for the true purpose of this episode--to allow Buffy to speak to her mother one last time. She never had a chance to say goodbye, and this time she did.

I also commend ME on another controversial episode, a high-concept type show that, I am sure, they realized a large group of the fan base would not like, or totally get, and another group would enjoy. Other examples include "The Zeppo" and "Gingerbread," both of which I liked by the way. Very few other production teams put out episodes they know might piss off a lot of the fans, for the sake of the story.

And I would argue that this was perhaps the most important episode this year, thus far, with the exception of OMWF.

Rob

[> [> Re: Not at all...It strengthened my faith in the brilliance of ME -- Rattletrap, 06:58:42 03/14/02 Thu

"I also commend ME on another controversial episode, a high-concept type show that, I am sure, they realized a large group of the fan base would not like, or totally get, and another group would enjoy. Other examples include "The Zeppo" and "Gingerbread," both of which I liked by the way. Very few other production teams put out episodes they know might piss off a lot of the fans, for the sake of the story."

Great point Rob. That is the genius of ME, that they are willing to take risks. As many risks as they take, it is a given that they will fail and alienate some of their fans occasionally, but the risks frequently pay off with huge dividends. This is not safe television, anything can happen.

BTW, I don't in any way consider "Normal Again" a failed risk, this one will pay some huge dividends, I think. Far from harming my WSOD, I think this episode enhanced it.

[> It could, but it shouldn't. See my post above for my take, if you please. -- OnM, 05:48:34 03/14/02 Thu

buffy's mind supplied both the labyrinth & the thread -- anom, 21:22:51 03/13/02 Wed

Whew--there's so much discussion of "Normal Again" that the thread I was responding to was archived by the time I tried to send this post. So I'm starting a new one, which I had to come up w/a subject line for on short notice--there are no references to labyrinths in this post, that didn't occur to me till I wrote the subject line. The quotes below are from Calluna's "Re: I can't get it to make sense that way" (my original subject line was "i agree, calluna...mostly"). And for the record, Calluna, I really like what you said about Buffy's saying the goodbye to her mother that she didn't have the chance to in real life.

"Okay, here's a simpler explination. Obviously Joyce wasn't the only one who repressed Buffy's visit to a clinic. I'd say Buffy repressed it quite nicely as well."

I don't know if she necessarily repressed it, though I'm sure it's something she doesn't like to think about. Certainly it's not the kind of thing you want to tell your new friends when you move to Sunnydale & start over, especially when you're hoping to put the whole Slayer thing behind you (remember her telling Giles she'd been there & done that & didn't want anything to do w/it any more?).

"So this repressed memory of the clinic surfaces into a full blown alternate reality, which to Buffy explains the loss of 6 years."

I'd been thinking her earlier time in the clinic was real & was the seed of the alternate reality we saw, without necessarily having been fully repressed.

A clue to the asylum-reality's being the false one is that it seems based more on the kind of experience Buffy would have had during a couple of weeks of observation/evaluation (& possibly on what she learned in Walsh's intro psych class, now that I think of it!) than on the treatment of someone w/the kind of full-blown mental illness she supposedly had.

There was no mention of antipsychotic drugs as part of her treatment (although the staff was apparently going to inject her w/tranquilizers before she calmed down on her own). They would almost certainly be used along w/therapy in a case like hers, but Buffy isn't likely to know that, so it doesn't show up in her construct of the asylum-reality, even though the demon's poison injection is a perfect avenue for incorporating it. Her recovery was presented as something she could, & would have to, do all in her head, with support from her family & guidance from the doctor.

And the task is put in the kind of terms Sunnydale-Buffy would think of--not to give up a distorted way of thinking, but to get rid of the "friends" in her head, which she goes about doing not by killing them herself (consistent w/her role in Sunnydale-reality) or by saying goodbye to them & then telling them they're not real & ignoring them when they show up again (consistent w/what they're telling her in the asylum-reality) but by tying them up & unleashing a monster on them. Remember, the monsters are supposed to personify--if that's an appropriate term--the fears & problems she can't face in "reality." So her solution is to have these fears destroy her imagined sources of love & support? Sorry, doesn't make sense if the asylum scenario is real.

Besides, why would a Sunnydale-reality that Buffy had imagined to support her psychosis include her parents' breakup & her mother's death? That's one of the most unbelievable parts of the asylum scenario, & it's never addressed--because it's something Buffy would never be able to explain to herself.

Last, when Buffy finally says goodbye to her mother & beocmes unresponsive in the asylum, the doctor says something like "We've lost her"--it sounds entirely final. Not "This is a serious setback," meaning they'll have to go back to square one, or try a different approach; this is it, she's never going to be "normal again." This can only be because Buffy in Sunnydale-reality knows she's not going back. She's the one who decides it's final.

BTW, (OK, that wasn't last after all), I think it's very important that Buffy reaches this point without having taken the antidote yet. She had the strength to take hold of the scenario induced by the demon's poison & turn it around, using it to help her face her own reality. Maybe the antidote's coming from the same demon is symbolic of this. Maybe that fact is even what Buffy uses to tell herself she can find her way out using the content of the asylum-reality.

If much of this has been said (& even archived!) already, it's because I don't have time to read through all the threads the episode has engendered. I have a bunch of work to get through before I go away for the weekend (Lunacon!), so I'll probably end up plowing through the archives for them when I get back.

[> Great points!! and have a good weekend! -- Rahael, 02:44:18 03/14/02 Thu

[> Ditto -- Sophist, 08:31:04 03/14/02 Thu

Philosophical but OT -- juliaabra, 01:07:54 03/14/02 Thu

A friend sent me this and I thought it might be appreciated here. Forgive me if you've already seen it:

French Intellectuals to be Deployed to Afghanistan to Convince al-Queda of Non-Existence of God

The ground war in Afghanistan heated up yesterday when the Allies revealed plans to airdrop a platoon of crack French existentialist philosophers into the country to destroy the morale of al-Queda zealots by proving the
non-existence of God.

Elements from the feared Jean-Paul Sartre Brigade, or "Black Berets", will be parachuted into the combat zones to spread doubt, despondency and existential anomie among the enemy. Hardened by numerous intellectual battles fought during their long occupation of Paris' Left Bank, their first action will be to establish a number of pavement Cafes at strategic points near the front lines. There they will drink coffee and talk animatedly about the absurd nature of life and man's lonely isolation in the universe. They will be accompanied by a number of heartbreakingly beautiful girlfriends who will further spread dismay by sticking their tongues in the philosophers' ears every five minutes and looking remote and unattainable to everyone else.

Their leader, Colonel Marc-Ange Belmondo, spoke yesterday of his confidence in the success of their mission. Sorbonne graduate Belmondo, a very intense and unshaven young man in a black pullover, gesticulated wildly and said, "The al-Queda are caught in a logical fallacy of the most ridiculous. There is no God and I can prove it. Take your tongue out of my ear, Juliet, I am talking."

Marc-Ange plans to deliver an impassioned thesis on man's nauseating freedom of action with special reference to the work of Foucault and the films of Alfred Hitchcock. However, humanitarian agencies have been quick to condemn the operation as inhumane, pointing out that the effects of passive smoking from the Frenchmen's endless Gitanes could wreak a terrible toll on civilians in the area.

Speculation was mounting last night that Britain may also contribute to the effort by dropping Professor Stephen Hawking into Afghanistan to propagate his non-deistic theory of the creation of the universe. Other tactics to demonstrate the non-existence of God will include the dropping of leaflets pointing out the fact that Michael Jackson has a new album out and Jesse Helms has not died yet. This is only one of several Psy-Ops operations mounted by the Allies.

[> Re: Philosophical but OT -- skp, 06:29:18 03/14/02 Thu

LOL :))

[> Frenchie intellectuals and al-Queda, the start of a beautiful friendship -- bienbizare, hiding out on the rive gauche, 06:34:00 03/14/02 Thu

[> Re: Philosophical but OT -- DEN, 07:37:29 03/14/02 Thu

Can you give us the web source for this? I love it, and want to forward the original if possible

[> [> DEN's request -- julia, 10:37:55 03/14/02 Thu

I'm sorry, but a friend forwarded it to me with no real evidence attached. The closest it had to a web source was a fellow's email from, I think, the Peabody Conservatory: paul faatz streader@peabody.jhu.edu Perhaps you could email him for the source? Or perhaps he wrote it. Glad you all liked this.

[> ROFLMAO! -- Wisewoman, 08:49:03 03/14/02 Thu

Thanks. I needed a good laugh. ;o)

[> [> Ditto! Very hilarious! -- VampRiley, 08:55:45 03/14/02 Thu

[> [> Whoo! Ditto again. New forward fodder. -- yuri, 09:53:34 03/14/02 Thu

[> ROFL ! -- Etrangere, 13:12:37 03/14/02 Thu

[> Oh, that is verry good. *g* -- Deeva, 14:25:18 03/14/02 Thu

Love the wild gesticulations and Gitanes!

My 5 cents worth so far ( inflation, ya know... ) ( ***Spoilers*** for *Normal Again* ) -- OnM, 05:44:08 03/14/02 Thu

My work schedule being what it has been for the last few weeks, this isn’t going to be a full-blown review of Normal Again, but I did want to address, and present my thoughts on, what understandably seems to be a critical issue of this episode.

Like Wisewoman and I’m sure many other viewers, I had this sudden, horrifying feeling that the events taking place in the ‘Asylumverse’ were not hallucinations, but reality. I agree that they are reality.

The primary suggestions for this interpreatation are the use of certain cinematic conventions. While there is no guarantee that they are being used this way in this particular ep, I am accepting for the moment that they are and that this is what the writer and director intended.

In any given scene, we either see things from one character’s point of view, another character’s point of view, or outside of it all, the so-called ‘fourth wall’. The way the camera sets the image up for viewing presents the particular perspective. In the scenes in the asylumverse (‘asv’ from now on, it’s a longish word), we are seening events from either the views of characters in the asv (the Summers’, the doctor, the nurses) or from the fourth wall. We do not see them from Buffy’s point of view, other than through the fourth wall.

The last shot of the show, with a now-catatonic Buffy slumped against a corner wall while the bereaved Joyce and Hank Summers weep at again ‘losing’ their daughter to mental illness is the primary argument for the existance of the asv as a reality. (The corner is significant, btw, it emphasises the ‘trapped’ feeling, also conjuring the expression ‘backed into a corner’) There is no reason to choose this framing of the shot, followed by the camera pulling back, and the view passing through a doorway into the area outside the hospital room unless the asv is real. Even if we present the counter-argument normal Buffyverse (‘nbv’) Buffy has not taken the antidote yet, and so is still ‘hallucinating’, the shot doesn’t make sense, because the persepective is wrong. The last shot that could be interpreted as a hallucination is when the doctor is shining the flashlight into Buffy’s eye, and for that very short moment, we see a view from Buffy’s perspective.

The various meta-narratives of the episode support this contention also. From our realverse perspective, it makes perfect sense that Buffy is delusional, and is confined to an institution. There are other little clues, which I won’t go into now, since it would require a scene-by-scene kind of analysis.

My theorem is this-- it is an established fact of the nbv that alternate dimensions exist. These dimensions can be either alternate or parallel dimensions, the existance of both kinds has been established also. The demon dimensions, for example, could be classed as ‘alternate’ dimensions. Pylea would be an example of this. The dimension utilized in Superstar or The Wish / Dopplegangland represent “parallel’ dimensions, similar to the conscept used in the TV series Sliders a few years back.

The asv is a parallel dimension. In this dimension, there are one of two possibilities extent. A) This dimension is like our own, and there are no real vampires or demons or monsters, other than the human kind. B) The universe is like or similar to the nbv, but Buffy’s calling resulted in her being committed to a mental institution. Joyce and Hank Summers are devestated but hopeful that their daughter can somehow recover from her ‘delusion’.

I am accepting ‘B’ as the most likely scenario, although the following concept could work in either case. Buffy has the potential to form a psychic link with her other selves in adjacent parallel dimensions. The chemical injected into her by the ‘waxy’ demon does not cause hallucinations, it enables this psychic link. Buffy’s ‘consciousness’ can now join with/overtake the consciousness of asv Buffy. Please note that the mystical forces involved in the death of Buffy in S5 (‘The Gift’) could have done the same, thus explaining the description of ‘heaven’ Buffy has presented us with. The doctor alludes to this in Normal Again, another significant comment.

Drinking the antidote severs the psychic connection. Our nbv Buffy is now seperate from asv Buffy. But, asv Buffy is still joined to nbv Buffy, as she has been for the last six years. Whether caused by a psychotic break of some kind, an attack on asv Buffy by a ‘waxy’ demon, or some other circumstance, asylumverse Buffy is and has been linked to the normal Buffyverse Buffy. Thus, she is effectively catatonic and exists in our Buffy’s mind and experiences.

Think of the implications of all this-- they would be stunning. Perhaps a large part of the uncertainty our Buffy has experienced over the last 5 years is due to her mostly one-way psychic link with her counterpart in the asv. In that universe, the Summers’ and the doctors keep trying to restore her to ‘normalcy’, which that universe’s Buffy wants-- and possibly could have?

I am just blown away even by the possibilities of all this, which is why, like Rob, I’ve placed this ep up in the top 10 or 20 best-of-all-time episodes of the show. Anyone like to consider making the summer group writing project a fic about our nbv Buffy becoming aware of this ‘link’, and then trying to ‘rescue’ herself from the clutches of-- uhh, herself-- in this parallel dimension? Of meeting her parents again?

God, I love this show.

[> Re: My 5 cents worth so far ( inflation, ya know... ) ( ***Spoilers*** for *Normal Again* ) -- DEN, 06:16:53 03/14/02 Thu

Very convincing, OnM. S6 has been working the edges of this all year with, for example, some of Willow's magic. But can we really call "Superstar" an alternate dimension? The ep seemed rather to indicate a massive glamor that at the end faded away, restoring reality.

[> [> Re: Superstar -- OnM, 07:20:06 03/14/02 Thu

Granted, that is possible. In the end of that show, as I recall, Anya referred to it (The Jonathanverse) as an 'alternate reality' or 'alternate dimension', I forget which. It illustrates the point, nonetheless, which is that this kind of circumstance has very substantial precedence in the 'normal' Buffyverse, therefore making my conjecture logical, whether ultimately true or not.

Gotta get to work now-- back tonight!

[> Re: My 5 cents worth so far ( inflation, ya know... ) ( ***Spoilers*** for *Normal Again* ) -- Marie, 06:23:38 03/14/02 Thu

I read this, and thought "Wow!". Then I read it again, and thought "Wow!".

I haven't see this episode, but I've been reading some of the posts about it, and I'd been wondering if this was another "Wish"-type episode. Sort of, 'look what happens to her friends when Buffy isn't around'.

Buffy has been 'going through' the motions, not really living. This episode, as I've been reading it, shows her that it was a good thing she was brought back - her friends really do need her. She's also had a chance to see her mother, so that, perhaps, when she enters the 'nbv' again, she'll be happier to go foward with her life. Feel 'normal'.

Now that I've read what you've posted, I have to say I like your version better. Alternate dimensions sound so much better than hallucinations.

M

[> Re: My 5 cents worth so far ( inflation, ya know... ) ( ***Spoilers*** for *Normal Again* ) -- Rattletrap, 06:26:31 03/14/02 Thu

I had previously dismissed all of the theories that the ASV is "real" as nonsense, but you've gone a long way to convincing me, OnM. A very impressive review, as always.

'trap

[> [> Thanks 'trap-- but this wasn't the 'review'. That'll come later. Be afraid! ... ;-) -- OnM, 07:23:46 03/14/02 Thu

[> [> [> Consider me quivering in my boots . . . with anticipation -- Rattletrap, 14:38:25 03/14/02 Thu

[> [> [> [> errr, you misspelled An-tiss-ah..........................................PATION. Glad to help. ;-) -- The Second Evil, 22:08:44 03/14/02 Thu

[> Re: My 5 cents worth so far ( inflation, ya know... ) ( ***Spoilers*** for *Normal Again* ) -- XanderFan, 06:35:44 03/14/02 Thu

I don't think it's important which world is "real". What's important is which choice she made.

I think they did a good job of setting up the plausible possibility that these were all her delusions. As Spike said, it would explain things.

Spike was the only one who encouraged her to "get well" by doing away with her "hero complex". Was this the ultimate act of sacrifice on his part (putting Buffy's interests before his own) or was it that he couldn't live in a world controled by Buffy's delusions? After all he explained that the reason he was chipped could have been because then he could be Buffy's love interest.

I found it quite interesting that the choice she made could have been the one that led her further into insanity. But at the same time, it seemed like the right choice, even though now she is in a canatonic state.

She rather be an hero in a world of her own making, than to live in the real world. Does that make her heroic, or selfish?

[> [> Re: My 5 cents worth so far ( inflation, ya know... ) ( ***Spoilers*** for *Normal Again* ) -- XanderFan, 06:39:00 03/14/02 Thu

If the Buffyverse is a delusion, how would the Scoobies feel about that?

Would they want Buffy to get well, even though that would mean the end of their existance?

[> [> [> Another great fanfic possibility! -- OnM, 07:31:18 03/14/02 Thu

[> [> [> Re: My 5 cents worth so far - Would it end their existance? -- Dochawk, 10:13:33 03/14/02 Thu

Would Buffy choosing the asylumverse end their existance? I don't think so, (assuming Buffy doesn't kill them) I think they would be back to the beginning of Bargaining or they would forget about fighting the creatures of evil and they would lose their special place in the world, Willow's great fear.

[> I'll see your five and raise you ten -- dream of the consortium, 07:04:47 03/14/02 Thu

I loved this episode. Desperately. I am trying to catch up with the posting, but I just saw it last night (watched it, then rewound, and watched again) and there has been a LOT of posting going on. So please forgive me if I just repeat what everyone else has said.

*There is no reason to choose this framing of
the shot, followed by the camera pulling back, and the view passing through a doorway into the area
outside the hospital room unless the asv is real. Even if we present the counter-argument normal
Buffyverse (‘nbv’) Buffy has not taken the antidote yet, and so is still ‘hallucinating’, the shot doesn’t make
sense, because the persepective is wrong.*

But there have been non-point of view shots of Buffy in the Asylumverse already. If we had seen the asylum only through her eyes, and then, in the final scene, were forced to accept its objective reality by a deliberate switch to an outside view, I would agree with you. And I did think on the first viewing that the writers were trying to push the otherwise almost perfect Asylumverse/Sunnydaleverse balance to the side of the Asylumverse. But the second tme I viewed it, I was struck by how illogical some of Buffy's arguments in favor of the unreality of the Sunnydaleverse were. "I should be taller than you." I was far taller than both my much older sisters when I was fifteen. Or "I'm sleeping with a vampire I hate - yeah, that makes sense." Oh, in reality, people don't sleep with people they don't like? She doesn't say, "Yeah, you're a mystical ball of energy that steals leather jackets?" Or even "I'm so poor, and I wear a new leather jacket every week?" Instead, she focusses on the thing that causes her the most anxiety in the Sunnydaleverse - her relationship with Spike. She only chooses to skip the antidote when her life in Sunnydale is threatened by Spike's threat to expose her. In the show's overall philosophy, hiding from the truth is never a good thing, and she is clearly trying to escape the truth in retreating to the asylumverse. (THIS IS NOT TO SAY that the asylumverse would be, objectively speaking, better - anyone who knows anything about schizophrenia knows it's a horrible thing to suffer. But, if you are looking at the asylum parts of the episode as Buffy's hallucination, you have to see that world as what it represents to her, not what it would be objectively. I have a feeling that this has been covered endlessly, so I won't go on.)
In the light of all that, the final, still-pre-antidote hallucination could move outside the door because Buffy is moving away from it, leaving it behind, "closing the door" on this escape-hatch into the normal. (Also, as far as the viewpoint goes, I think the point made below by I've-forgotten-who, that Buffy is in every asylum scene, but there are Sunnydale scence which do not revolve around her does underlined the egocentrism of the hallucinated ayslumverse, as pointed out by Spike.)

None of whcih argues against your idea that the separate asylumverse has a reality within the narrative of the show as a alternate dimension. I actually rather like that.

That said, I do believe it is kept deliberately ambiguous for the sake of causing vicious, Troika-like debates among the fans. I believe ME wants people to eventually ask themselves why it bothers them that the Buffyverse might be in the mind of schizophrenic when we all know it is in fact all in the minds of a group of people in LA. The fans were clearly being spoken to in this episode - I agree with whoever pointed out that there was a little fan wish-fulfillment in the taping shut of Dawn's mouth, and of course the doctor's speech was practically a fan's litany of complaints about this season - inconsistencies, lame enemies, relationships falling apart. Too depressing. Not nearly the fun escape it used to be.

Of course, the foreshadowing of all this about the real and the unreal, and whether one would rather be a chosen one with a mission or a girl in an institution with the references to Sts. Joan and Teresa is the sort of thing that makes me happy to be in a world with the Buffyverse, no matter whose mind it comes from.

I want to add, because I haven't noticed it yet (will probably find a whole thread on it right after I post) that the drug theme was well developed in this episode. Drugs dominate both universes - the initial injection, the nurse/co-worker statement about drugs, the search for the antidote. I really think Buffy must be one of the most anti-drug shows on television (trying explaining that to the anti- drug activists.) Willow's addiction, obviously, but from Band Cand, through Beer Bad, Xander's father's alcoholism, and so on, the show has consistently looked into the ways that drugs affect people. One of the worst things about long-term drug addiction is that you can feel more "yourself" while under the influence of the drug than you do when sober. The "soberverse" is not real, the "drugverse" is, so to speak. The drugverse is an escape from the soberverse that become more real than reality. This whole season has been about the ways to escape from reality, and this particular episode focussed in on what happens when that escape threatens to take over.

While I'm babbling, I want to add that I loved seeing Joyce again, and loved that she was able to give Buffy the support she needed. I liked Tara as the savior. I liked how the Troika have really started to fall apart, and how distraught Jonathon is. Dawn is driving me insane. And I was horrified at how nasty Xander was. Oh, and the psychological explanation of Dawn was fantastic.

Anyone want to raise me a quarter?

[> [> Good points. Raise you later, OK? In the meantime, anybody else, please go for it ! -- OnM, 07:27:06 03/14/02 Thu

[> [> Can I get another card? -- ponygirl, 07:56:07 03/14/02 Thu

Great posts from all! I find it interesting that so much of the debate on Normal Again focuses on which reality is the true one-- an attempt by our slightly mad fandom to keep together the intergrity of our shared delusion which is the Buffyverse?

For me the episode was a big illustration of the "oh grow up" arc. For the entire season Buffy has been drifting, obviously wanting to return to the safety of her "heaven", which may have been literally heaven, her childhood, or the ASV. She may have found to her surprise that she didn't want to die in Gone, but it still wasn't enough to bring her out of her depression. As she told Willow, she was still detached, still expecting to suddenly snap out of it. Now she's finally exerted control over her life, choosing the reality she has been trying to escape from. She got to say goodbye to her mother, something she had never done (back in Forever it was Dawn who ended the spell to bring back Joyce, Buffy was at the door ready to let zombie-mom in). Ultimately what else can a parent do but tell their adult child that they should believe in themselves before sending them into the world? Buffy may have finally grown up, she's let go of safety and security and her parents. To me the ASV represented a childhood that had hung on too long.

[> [> Fold. I can't beat this. Great job. -- Sophist, 08:21:31 03/14/02 Thu

[> [> Excellent points, dream and my little addition... -- Ixchel, 09:38:55 03/14/02 Thu

As someone pointed out below schizophrenia is not curable, its symptoms can be contolled with strong medication, that's all. Now _Buffy_ probably doesn't know that (she only took Intro Psych as far as we know and Walsh implied she didn't always attend class), so this seems to be further evidence that she created the delusion as an escape with a possibility of full recovery (and return to her parents). Also, a little note, the nurse says it's time for her drugs, and then the scene cuts to her manager saying Buffy's acting like she's on drugs. Now this, of course, is most likely just a choice of a particular word for the continuation of the scene, but a nurse would (normally) say something like "it's time for your medication", not "your _drugs_".

As you said, this doesn't completely negate the possibility of an asylumverse (though it makes it unlikely to me), which is an interesting idea in and of itself.

Also, I believe I felt the same way on second viewing regarding the final scene ("closing the door"), you just expressed far better than I could.

Ixchel

[> [> [> In the old days, they did say 'drugs' -- OnM, 04:53:15 03/15/02 Fri

*** Now this, of course, is most likely just a choice of a particular word for the continuation of the scene, but a nurse would (normally) say something like "it's time for your medication", not "your _drugs_". ***

When I was a kid, most medical personell did in fact commonly use the word 'drugs'. After the extended bout of drug paranoia in the 60's, it was decided that the word 'medication' or 'medicine' should be used instead of 'drugs' because, well, drugs are evil, ya know?

Perhaps in the ASV, the 60's were different.

;)

[> [> [> [> Thanks OnM, I had no idea. That's very interesting... -- Ixchel, 15:28:05 03/15/02 Fri

It just seemed discordant with what small amount I know about mental institutions.

Apparently the use of the word "drugs" in hospitals, etc. was so completely eradicated that now someone like me couldn't conceptualize that it had ever been used in that setting. How perfectly strange that is. The same substances, two different names, one being "good" and one being "evil".

Ixchel

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Thanks OnM, I had no idea. That's very interesting... -- Cleanthes, 21:29:28 03/15/02 Fri

Did you see Kate & Leopold? They make fine use of the old meaning of the word "erection". (which is what the Brooklyn Bridge was)

"Medication" is definitely the PC word, only in use for the past 15 years or so. Heck, growing up, I seldom remember hearing the word "pharmacy". It was drug store and the guy was a druggist. Not so much nowadays!

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: No idea. -- OnM, 05:16:19 03/16/02 Sat

One of the reasons I remember this 'changeover' to the more PC 'medicine' was sometime back in the late 70's I was being treated for some illness or another, and after being given a prescription for what I (completely neutrally) referred to as 'drugs', I got this evil eye from the nurse who quickly corrected me-- 'These aren't drugs... this is medicine. They'll make you better. Drugs make you sicker.'

I was stunned at what to me seemed a ludicrous dictinction, but realized it would be pointless to argue semantics, so I said nothing.

BTW, good to see you again, Cleanthes!

:)

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Erections ;o) -- Wisewoman, 08:32:12 03/16/02 Sat

Oh, you just made me recall something...up until about 10 years ago there was an old ship-building facility here on the north shore of Burrard Inlet. It had a huge sign across it you could see for miles, especially across the water: Erection Shop

;o)

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Erections ;o) -- Rufus, 15:43:17 03/17/02 Sun

I lived near that shop for a few years......loved the sign.:):)

[> [> Re: I'll see your five and raise you ten -- clg0107, 15:23:55 03/14/02 Thu

re:dream of the consortium's comments

>In the light of all that, the final, still-pre-antidote >hallucination could move outside the door because Buffy is >moving away from it, leaving it behind, "closing the door" >on this escape-hatch into the normal.

Isn't this sort of perspective often used on TV and in the movies when someone is having an out of body experience, dying, or some part of them is otherwise receding from the scene being shown...

It's this reason that pursuades me that the asylumverse is a hallucination. That and the fact that in our world, truth is stranger than fiction. Such that Buffy's comments on the bizarreness of her life in her "buffyverse" world is not evidence that it's the illusion.

I also enjoyed the St. Joan and martyrdom discussions, especially in light of Tabula Rasa, and Buffy's choice of Joan as her name. It may not have been an exactly subtle choice in TR, but if the shoe fits....

~clg0107

[> Brilliant post, OnM! -- Rob, 08:15:52 03/14/02 Thu

I thought I'd done all the thinking possible about this episode. I thought about it inside out...and now you add this whole new level of thinkage I need to do!

And I think your idea makes a GREAT deal of sense. That would explain how both Buffys could exist simultaneously. And it would explain it better than just asv as hallucination, or nbv as hallucination. Because the glaring problem with the nbv as hallucination was that scenes happened that Buffy was not in, nor aware of. Two Buffys from 2 dimensions with a psychic link, however, that is a brilliant concept, and works perfectly in my book. I wonder whether they will ever mention this again on the show. I think that fanfic idea is an excellent one, by the way. I didn't join in last summer's fanfic project. But I'd love to be a part of this one, especially with such an intriguing topic!

If there has to be a break in episodes before sweeps, I'm glad this was the last ep we saw before the break. It was so fulfilling, and such a great episode to leave us pondering about, unlike the last break, where we got "Wrecked" as the last "Buffy."

Rob

[> Thank you, OnM! ;o) -- WW, 09:07:34 03/14/02 Thu

Great post, dealt with the major issues I've been pondering and offered a convincing explanation.

My one "niggle" is the one Valhalla pointed out yesterday in her post to the "Metanarration" thread:

...as I understand it, one of the great horrible-nesses of schizophrenia is that there's no real cure. It can be treated in some cases, but it's always kind of around. And I definitely don't think it can be cured just by repeatedly telling someone that their 'delusions' aren't real.

No psychiatrist in his right mind (pardon!) would attempt to "cure" (or even treat) schizophrenia or schizo-affective disorder by simply informing his patient that it was all in her head!

This is not inconsistent with your alternate reality explanation, because the asv may be coincidentally plagued with incredibly incompetent psychiatrists.

And I do think the actual handling of the episode was brilliant, as I've come to expect. I was just concerned that, as someone else pointed out, Joss was telling us all to "get a life."

I've decided I have a life, and the Buffyverse is part of it, and that's a good thing.

;o)

[> [> ROFLMAO, WW! -- Rob, 09:30:03 03/14/02 Thu

"This is not inconsistent with your alternate reality explanation, because the asv may be coincidentally plagued with incredibly incompetent psychiatrists."

:-) :-) :-)

Rob

[> [> [> Remember, they've been treating her for 5 or 6 years... -- OnM, 04:38:32 03/15/02 Fri

... so we don't really know what they've tried or not. It was stated that she had 'lucid moments' before, and perhaps in those moments they tried to communicate the 'illusory' nature of the universe her mind inhabits.

I just loved the idea that it isn't an illusion-- but a person hopelessly linked to the mind of another person, literally living out their experiences.

The fanfic idea just came to me when I envisioned Buffy discovering (sometime in the future, like, say, June?) what the waxy demon drug actually did to her-- and subsequently becoming obsessed with 'setting things right' in the other dimension. So she goes to go so, and then you get into all those sorts of 'prime directive' type issues, etc.

Just rife with story opportunities, methinks. Not to mention an obsession with seeing her parents again, and the psychological areas that would deal with. It's one thing to say goodbye to your mother when you think she's an hallucination, and are speaking to her in a spiritual context, not as a literal physical presence, then discover that she actually is alive, just in another dimensional universe, and one that she could find a way to travel to.

Wackiness ensues...

[> [> [> [> OK, I DEFINITELY want to do this fanfic now! -- Rob, 11:07:40 03/15/02 Fri

[> Re: have an extra penny -- Dochawk, 10:25:55 03/14/02 Thu

Once again OnM we are thinking along the same lines, and once again you put it so much more eloquently than I have been able to in chat the last couple of days.

You mentioned Doppelgangland briefly. I think it deserves more than that. Clearly it suggest that Willow lives in at least 2 dimensions, which can be brought together. There seemed to be an undertow of psychic connection between the two Willows as well. (I've only seen Doppelgangland once so my memory isn;t as clear).

I think we will be seeing more of this in forthcoming episodes.

A

[> [> Yep. Exactly. -- OnM, 04:58:42 03/15/02 Fri

*** There seemed to be an undertow of psychic connection between the two Willows as well. ***

It's not that the writer necessarily is referring to this fact you just mentioned, it's just that it's one more element that 'fits'. I think that the strength of my theory is that there exists so much precedence and background material in the normal Buffyverse to support it logically. As I mentioned in the original post, even if I'm not right, I could be, without 'stretching' anything to fit.

[> Explaining the cinematography ( ***Spoilers*** for *Normal Again* ) -- Darby, 10:42:02 03/14/02 Thu

My "what if" lobe has gone off the deep end, no doubt...

Could the "Buffy" we see in the asylum be another potential Slayer in Buffy's own world, so psychically locked to Buffy (it has been indicated that Slayers range widely in psychic ability) that she "tapped into" Buffy's Calling (maybe the power almost tapped her but passed her by?) and has ever since shared Buffy's life, to the extent that she sees herself as Buffy and her parents as Buffy's parents? This makes the asylum an extension of someone else's delusion (schizophrenics may have contained "separate" delusions or overlay them on their surroundings, or both), explains how she could not be Buffy but that we would see her as Buffy (we accept the Sunnydale "delusion" without POV shots). This would also mean that Buffy could find her (maybe through follow-up dreams now that the connection is stronger, and Buffy's dreams seem to work this way: once focused, they stay on track), or maybe the Watchers Council could track her down. Or a doctor decides that a trip to the real Sunnydale might shock her out of her catatonia...the possibilities are boggling...

[> [> How the FX proves Asylumverse... (Spoilers for Normal Again) -- Scroll, 13:46:21 03/14/02 Thu

Or what if the Buffy in the Asylumverse really had seen vampires and, unable to deal with the monsters, created the whole mythology of being a Slayer so that she could help beat back the demons. She could be an unCalled Slayer (I'm assuming she hasn't been Called because no Slayer strength).

One interesting detail I noticed that almost supports the Asylumverse as real and Buffyverse as the delusion is that moment in the basement just after Buffy ties up Dawn and Xander is just waking up. You can tell even in the basement that it is afternoon, the sun is out and peeking through the basement windows. We cut to Buffy in the psych ward, the Doc & parents telling her to fight the delusions, and we cut back to the basement, and now the light is dimmer, all shadows, very little sunlight. Then after Buffy flashes onto Joyce telling her to be strong and we cut back to the basement, we see the afternoon sun shining again, and Buffy is almost haloed with light.

Perhaps this lighting trick is just to heighten tension. But I think it also purposely undermines our ability to blithely dismiss the possibility that the Buffyverse is the delusion. It is clearly a deliberate choice on the part of the director/FX guys to change the setting to fit Buffy's mood. And since I can't believe that Buffy can affect the weather if the Buffyverse is real, then it must all be in her mind!

[> [> Suppose in the ASV, there *are no demons or vampires*? And NBV Buffy discovers this fact? -- OnM, 05:01:17 03/15/02 Fri

[> Re: My 5 cents worth so far ( inflation, ya know... ) ( ***Spoilers*** for *Normal Again* ) -- shyviolet, 21:32:14 03/14/02 Thu

just a thought----

ok, if buffy really has been in an asylum for the past six years, and the entire series thus far has been one big made up story in her mind, then how do you explain characters like angel, cordelia, and giles, who seem to be very real, getting their own spin-off shows? if they were all just made up charcters in her little fantasy, then they wouldn't really exist and therfore could not possibly go on to have their shows and storylines. any thought on this?

[> Okay here's my take on this. -- A8, 21:33:59 03/14/02 Thu

I'm not certain if dissecting camera angles dispositive in figuring out whether the ASV is what we have been watching over the past six years or not. In my experience, and from what I've been told by others, hallucinations (dreams too)are not always from a first person perspective. I remember dreams I had after watching horror movies as a child where I witnessed my own beheading from a distance as if I were the fourth wall in my own movie. I have had acquaintances who have described hallucinogenic experiences in which they watched events happening to themselves and others as if they were passively viewing a cartoon or a movie.

If the ASV is any reality, IMO, it could never be the primary or only reality (as per OnM's description in his option a, above) of the show we've been watching for 6 years for a one major reason. If the ASV is the only or primary reality from which all the images we have been seeing have emanated, then everything we have seen for the past 6 years outside of the asylum scenes would have to be products of asylum Buffy's imagination, including everything that has transpired on AtS. All the mythology, backstory and every scene and camera angle would have been the products of the mind of ASV Buffy. This means that her Buffyverse alterego would have had knowledge of everything that occurred in the hallucinatory reality whether she witnessed it as Buffy or as any of the other Buffyverse characters. It also means that her Buffyverse alterego could never be caught off guard or taken by surprise because anything we as tv viewers have seen was created by the mind of ASV Buffy. This would include any metanarration and that would only seem to work if ASV Buffy's delusion was, as WW mentioned, that she was the lead character in a tv series about a vampire slayer. In other words, in order for the ASV to be the actual reality of the show, we could never see what the Buffyverse's characters were doing or planning behind Buffyverse Buffy's back without imputing the knowledge of those goings on to the Buffyverse slayer. Moreover, if ASV Buffy were to be miraculously cured of her hallucinations next week, AtS would have to disappear as well since its mythology and plotlines would also have to have been creations of ASV Buffy's mind. Is this making any sense at all?

I agree with OnM that, If the ASV is any reality other than the hallucinatory side effect of Buffyverse Troika instigated demon poke, it is some kind of alternate reality connected to the Buffyverse by the same rules and metaphysical laws.

A8

[> [> Welllll... not quite. -- Solitude1056, 22:21:49 03/14/02 Thu

If the ASV is the only or primary reality from which all the images we have been seeing have emanated, then everything we have seen for the past 6 years outside of the asylum scenes would have to be products of asylum Buffy's imagination... This means that her Buffyverse alterego would have had knowledge of everything that occurred in the hallucinatory reality whether she witnessed it as Buffy or as any of the other Buffyverse characters. It also means that her Buffyverse alterego could never be caught off guard or taken by surprise...

Not quite - in the schizophrenic mindset, the person doing the hallucinations feels more like the hallucinations are being done to them. The best analogy is a dream - you know things, sometimes, but you're hardly in control of situations, and there are plenty of times that you're caught offguard or in trouble in a dream... even though it's all your own brain creating the circumstances. So in that sense, I would hardly expect a schizophrenic mind to create a delusion in which they're the one who wins, all the time.

[Actually, it reminds me of the comment from the bad guy in the Matrix, that the first version of the Matrix was a 'good' one, where everyone was happy and had plenty of everything - and that it was rejected completely by its inhabitants. This quirk on humanity's part was met with confusion by the machines.]

Few people can manage lucid dreaming, even though it's our own brain that produces the images, and we're used to it being under our control - but it's not, not in the manual control sense. Schizophrenia is that element in our brain, turned up to eleven. So to speak, in a highly unmedical fashion...

[> [> [> Okay, but still... -- A8, 23:07:49 03/14/02 Thu

...if her hallucinatory perspective is first person only and the asylumverse is the real universe of the show then we could not over the past six years have seen anything that wasn't from her perspective.

The reason the Matrix is not a good parallel is that every living human hooked into the matrix contributed their own perspective thus enabling actions to occur independently outside any one individual's sphere of perception. The asylÿ

[> [> [> Okay, but still... -- A8, 23:14:24 03/14/02 Thu

...if her hallucinatory perspective is first person only and the asylumverse is the real universe of the show then we could not over the past six years have seen anything that wasn't from her perspective.

The reason the Matrix is not a good parallel is that every living human hooked into the matrix contributed their own perspective thus enabling actions to occur independently outside any one individual's sphere of perception. The asylumverse, as we have been shown so far, is coming from a single mind. Consequently, when we see two things happening in the same time frame but in different parts of Sunnydale, and when things are simultaneously occurring on AtS, those are all transpiring in Buffy's mind as if she were one of us sitting at home in our living rooms watching the shows each week. This presupposes a mentally ill but unbelievably knowledgeable girl. Every Shakespeare, movie, historical, literary, scientific, religious and pop culture reference made on the show by every minor character to date would have to exist in Asylum Buffy's mind, including metanarrative references such as Tara's "grrr arrgh."

I suppose all this could be explained away as a multiple personality disorder. When Tara speaks, Asylum Buffy is Tara, and when Xander speaks or does something Asylum Buffy is him as well. It also means that when Buffy was in her coma in WOTW, she was simultaneously aware and unaware that she was in a coma since she would have to be both Willow, Buffy, little Buffy, her Mom, her dad, and Spike, Xander and Doc (outside the coma) all at once. I'm not sure even multiple personality disorders allow for the simultaneous expression of those personalities. From what I've read (which isn't too much) the tend to take turns. Now think of how more complex the perspective switching would have to be in Who Are You when Faith as Buffy and Buffy as Faith are doing completely different things on opposite sides of town simultaneously. Throw in Willow's participation, with the help of Tara while Faith as Buffy is having sex with Riley and the whole premise just becomes absurd. It would only seem to work if the delusional person in the asylum was a writer like The Sisko character in the DS9 episode that I mentioned in my post yesterday or perhaps SMG herself believing the characters and scenarios portrayed on her show to be real. Now if JW had been using a plit screen technique ala Time Code for the past 6 seasons I might be more inclined to believe that all that we are seeing on the screen is a portrayal of what is occurring in a single delusional girl's mind.

You still aren't convinced are you? Oh well. I tried. I failed. What else can I do?

[> [> [> Sorry about the double post this board's glitchiness has been testing the limits of my patience. -- A8, 23:20:57 03/14/02 Thu

[> [> Re: Okay here's my take on this. -- Darby, 05:51:46 03/15/02 Fri

It's interesting that this thread starts out as a dissection of why camera shots and TV conventions shouldn't be used to analyze what's happening, and eventually proceeds to do just that.

Buffy is not the Slayer in the NA asylum universe - she's Joss with no TV deal!

[> [> [> Meow! Not exactly what I was saying, but fair enough. -- A8, 17:25:04 03/15/02 Fri

[> Re: My 5 cents worth so far ( inflation, ya know... ) ( ***Spoilers*** for *Normal Again* ) -- gds, 19:05:00 03/15/02 Fri

There is no reason to choose this framing of
the shot, followed by the camera pulling back, and the view passing through a doorway into the area
outside the hospital room unless the asv is real.

I disagree. This in fact can be looking at things from Buffy's viewpoint - not of her body, of her spirit. A similair view is used at the end of Somewhere In Time when Richard Collier dies and goes to be with his dead lover. At this point Buffy is dead to the asv. She chose to leave it. We see 'through her eyes' as she is looking back at what she is leaving: her asv body & her parents. She continues to move through the door.

The asv doesn't have to be a physical reality at all, just something that seemed real to her.

I am not at this point rejecting your theory, just pointing out it is not the only possibility.

[> [> Re: My 5 cents -- OnM, 05:23:22 03/16/02 Sat

You are quite right, as aptly proven by the numerous counter-arguments in this and other threads. I can only state what impression the choice of shot left on me.

The one thing that does seem clear, that most of us seem to agree on, is that ambiguity was very deliberate, which I enjoy and give the creative folk credit for.

Frankly, one of the main reasons I personally like the alternate dimension possibility is the chance for future stories it could present, whereas the hallucination theory pretty much would start and end with this episode.

Fabulous ep, either way, as all the current discussion proves.

[> Re: My 5 cents worth so far -my response to -- wiscoboy, 08:00:13 03/16/02 Sat

I also think that this ep could be a prelude to the "FINAL" ending to this series: Buffy is completely restored to what you call the avs reality; that she really never has left the institution. There are some problems with this premise when analyzing the situation:
1st: In the ep the doctor talked about her brief period of lucidation(the time of her death before restoration), but the paradox is that then she was missing in time while in this instance she continued in both universes during her periods within the avs universe. One would expect the rules to remain the same, therefore she could have been just using these hallucinations to explain her death.
2nd: If it becomes true that the Bvs universe is just the mindset of a comatose girl, this would invalidate both the Angel & Giles series, because neither would have the pretention of reality, negating the whole concept(and most of what is discussed on this & all other BTVS message boards).
Although I believe this would be a credible ending to the series, the questions to the paradoxes created might be harder to answer by the writers than if they continue to write the show "straight- up".

[> Re: My 5 cents worth so far ( inflation, ya know... ) ( ***Spoilers*** for *Normal Again* ) -- Buffyboy, 20:18:17 03/16/02 Sat

I agree very much with the spirit of your wonderful post.

A few comments:

The universe of The Wish/Doppelgangland does not exactly constitute a parallel universe. After VampWillow is staked and The Master kills the Buffy of this universe, Giles destroys Anyanka’s amulet and the universe reverts to the normal Buffyverse. At this point the Wishverse ends; it is a replacement universe that took over the Buffyverse until the magic that supported it was destroyed. The Asylumverse, according to your argument and mine as well, does continue. In the last scene the Asylumverse seems in no danger of imploding or in some other way ceasing to exist. The impression I get is that the Asylumverse of which Buffy is by then completely unaware continues to exist; it does abide; it does seem to exist independently of Buffy’s consciousness. Though, I must admit, reluctantly, that it is possible that right after the scene ends, the Asylumverse could cease to exist. Though this is a far less interesting possibility than the reality of the Asylumverse, it’s not really troubling.

What is troubling, though, is the possibility the Buffyverse is simply a product of Asylumverse- Buffy’s fantasy. As I said in an earlier post, this is a cheap trick, a junior-high-school-writing-trick that deserves only contempt. Yes, I know that a number of TV shows have used this trick. It just goes to show the level of writing on these shows. Such cheap tricks radically undermine our identification with characters and would empty the entire Buffy saga of it meaningful emotive content. At the hands of someone like Samuel Beckett such emptying-out of emotive content may well be the point, but BtvS lives, partially, through its intense (and at times over intense) emotive content and would become a pathetic junior-high-school-trick without it.

[> [> Which is why my theory is valid, or else... -- OnM, 07:14:32 03/17/02 Sun

... as a number of others have proposed, the ASV really is an hallucination on Buffy's part.

I can accept either, but as you accurately remarked in your last paragraph, making the NBV the hallucination would undermine the value of the series irreparably. It is OK to suggest it, but I think that this suggestion is part of the meta-narration that appears at other points in the episode. It's a deliberately pointed reference to what lesser talents would do with the concept, and is actually assuring us that this circumstance is not the case here.

I simply give the ME writers too much credit to think that they would cop out this way. The ASV is either hallucination, or parallel universe. The NBV remains a 'reality' in terms of it's normal fictional existance.

[> [> Re: My 5 cents worth so far ( inflation, ya know... ) ( ***Spoilers*** for *Normal Again* ) -- Cleanthes, 14:47:41 03/17/02 Sun

"The universe of The Wish/Doppelgangland does not exactly constitute a parallel universe. After VampWillow is staked and The Master kills the Buffy of this universe, Giles destroys Anyanka’s amulet and the universe reverts to the normal Buffyverse."

There is a third possibility. Parallel universes always exist if one can reach a high enough plane of observation. Everything that could be, might be, or even per Wittgenstein, can't even be spoken of, IS, given enough backing from frames of reference.

One of my old pet theories involves Aristotle's concept of entelechy - the process by which potential things become "actual". The Stagirite refused to admit actual infinities to his description of the universe. But, surely nowadays, hardly anyone remains afraid of infinities. If infinities are allowed, but the Aristotelian description of entelechy remains valid, then both my theory (given elsewhere on this board) that Buffy has the existential choice of realities, and OnM's concept of alternate realities are just ways of looking at the problem from different points of view depending on the level of entelechy perspective.

[> [> [> Re: My 5 cents worth so far ( inflation, ya know... ) ( ***Spoilers*** for *Normal Again* ) -- Rufus, 16:05:08 03/17/02 Sun

Buffy presented with two potential realities, made that choice which one was to become an actuality. I'm still biased enough to think she made the right choice. I'm hoping the Buffy that endured the mystical journey within, has learned something about authentic living, or else maybe she needs a second poke?;)

[> Existentialist pennies ( ***Spoilers*** for *Normal Again* ) -- TRM, 08:07:32 03/17/02 Sun

I actually haven't seen NA, so here's an exercise in poor argumentation...

We've been largely debating the true universe based upon a question of physical existance -- that one universe might be real while the other isn't or that both can be real. I admit to not knowing the fundaments of existentialism very well (or to any solid basis so i'm doubly arguing with knowledge), but I will propose at least a theory of existence (briefly noted earlier) which I associate with the term, principally: truth is only so much as what one perceives to be true.

We can drive this further, some french professor told me once that the concept of existentialism doesn't lie simply work such that the truth is what we perceive, but also that what we perceive becomes the truth. Thus, if I will for something to be true than it should so happen. Now, I can envisage millions of arguments surrounding such a statement ("Did Buffy will Joyce to die? Did Buffy will herself to be injured? etc.") but there are certainly unconscious desires and other explanations that can work around these arguments. The other principal arguments comes (which my dear french professor stated thus) with the question of my willing you into existence and you willing me into existence. In such a sense, reality must conform to the will of the masses -- which of course runs into the conflict of what if I will gravity and you don't? Let us take this perception of reality to be true for the moment and examine the implications it has on NA.

From the comments I've seen, I would certainly take ME to having tried to leave NA as having a fairly ambiguous ending -- they did want to allow the viewers to question what is reality. Yet there is also a very definite ending in showing which reality that Buffy chose. From Kierkegaard: "I must find a truth that is true for me . . . the idea for which I can live or die."

What if, a person can will others into existence, but in so doing allows that other person to will and therefore allows those to help create their world or to create worlds of their own? Thus, let's start with the basis that asylumverse Buffy created Sunnydale, then in so doing, Xander, Willow, Angel, Giles, etc. can continue existing even if Buffy retreats to Sunnydale because they create the world around them.

What becomes extremely intriguing in such a sense is that say will creates reality, we can't identify which Buffy was the original if such a thing could be established. Did asylumverse Buffy create Sunnydale or did Sunnydale Buffy create asylumverse? Either argument is justifiable because each other universe provided something that Buffy desired and willed.

The reason for such an argumentation is potent in that, it matches the presentation of this episode perfectly. It doesn't really matter who the original Buffy was because it only really matters what her decision and what her will was. Either asylumverse Buffy chose to live in Sunnydale or Sunnydale Buffy chose to remain there. She solidified reality in perception. But as a twist to Schrodinger's Cat she not only created reality in observation but her choice in observation forced which reality to exist.

In such a way, there is no point in arguing which is true, but what is perceived to be true. The EW criticism of this episode mentions St. Elsewhere (which I also haven't seen, but I checked up to see what this specific reference meant). The flaw to their criticism I thought is that we don't have the reworked storyline here in NA. Buffy doesn't wake up in the end to realize that her world was just a dream. She chooses to live in her dream and her choice, now made conscious, makes her world true. Again, such an argument is valid even if we wish to assert that physically Buffy is in asylumverse, because what is true to Buffy is her choice. She may be living in her mind according to all those in asylumverse, but she is living nonetheless in a world that she sees as existing. Who is to say that living in a dream is not the same as living in physical reality when perception is our only recourse of filtering reality anyway?

Oddly enough, such an argument can work into our realworld and our creation of the Buffyverse. Who is to say that Sunnydale doesn't exist in some mass consciousness? Certainly we argue things such as "What is Buffy's father doing when Joyce died?" If we were to stick with a strict only what is shown is what is true, than the simple answer to that is. Buffy's father was never shown on TV when Joyce died therefore he wasn't there. By our ruminations on Buffy and her universe, we've established her universe in some sort of reality. The characters in the show exist beyond what is shown in each episode. Hank Summers could have been mowing his lawn when Joyce died, Faith could have been defending herself from another inmate. Furthermore, we are presuming that in her youth Buffy went to the seashore with her father *AND* her sister. That Faith wrestled crocodiles, that the Mayor was alive and kicking before Buffy was even born. None of these were true even in the episodic sense. They were never filmed, but they have come to be true through our mass will.

[> [> Repost of above, less mistakes! (Spoilers for NA) -- TRM, 08:28:16 03/17/02 Sun

I actually haven't seen NA, so here's an exercise in poor argumentation...

We've been largely debating which is the true universe based upon a question of physical existence -- that one universe might be real while the other isn't or that both can be real. I admit to not knowing the fundaments of existentialism very well (nor to any solid basis, so i'm discussing an episode I haven't seen with a philosophy I'm not acquainted with -- good start), but I will propose at least a theory of existence (briefly noted earlier) which I associate with the term, principally: truth is only so much as what one perceives to be true.

We can drive this further, some professor from France once told me that the concept of existentialism isn't simply "the truth is what we perceive", but also that what we perceive becomes the truth. Thus, if I will for something to be true than it should so be. Now, I can envisage millions of arguments surrounding such a statement ("Did Buffy will Joyce to die? Did Buffy will herself to be injured? etc.") but there are certainly unconscious wills and desires and other explanations that work around such arguments. The other principal argument comes (which my dear French professor stated thus) with the question of my willing you into existence and you willing me into existence. Who wills who into existence and what of the world as a whole? In such a sense, reality must conform to the will of the masses -- which of course runs into the conflict of what if I will gravity and you don't? Nonetheless, let us take this perception of reality to be true for the moment and work out some of these inconsistencies as we examine the implications it has on NA.

From the comments I've seen, I certainly beleive ME wanted to leave NA with an ambiguous ending -- they wanted to allow the viewers to question which is reality. Yet there is also a very definite ending as well in showing which reality that Buffy chose. From Kierkegaard: "I must find a truth that is true for me . . . the idea for which I can live or die."

What if a person can will others into existence, but in so doing allows that other person to will and therefore allows those to help create the present world or to create worlds of their own? First, let's start with the basis that asylumverse Buffy created Sunnydale. Then in so doing, Xander, Willow, Angel, Giles, etc. can continue existing even if Buffy retreats to asylumverse because they create the world around them. Arguments that say Buffy being from asylumverse void AtS and "the Ripper" can thus be worked around.

What becomes extremely intriguing is that, if will creates reality, we can't identify which Buffy was the original -- should we wish to pinpoint an original in the first place. Did asylumverse Buffy create Sunnydale or did Sunnydale Buffy create asylumverse? Either argument is justifiable because each universe provided something that Buffy desired and willed.

Such an argumentation is potent in that, it matches the presentation of this episode perfectly. It doesn't really matter who the original Buffy was because it only matters what her decision and what her final will was. Either asylumverse Buffy chose to live in Sunnydale or Sunnydale Buffy chose to remain there. She solidified reality in perception. But as a twist to Schrodinger's Cat she not only created reality in observation but her choice in observation forced which reality to exist.

In such a way, there is no point in arguing which is true, but what is perceived to be true. The EW criticism of been there done that of this episode mentions St. Elsewhere (which I also haven't seen, but I checked up to see what this specific reference meant). The flaw to its negative criticism I thought is that we don't have the reworked storyline here in NA. Buffy doesn't wake up in the end to realize that her world was just a dream. She chooses to live in her dream and her choice, now made conscious, makes her world true. Again, such an argument is valid even if we wish to assert that physically Buffy is in asylumverse, because what is true to Buffy is her choice. She may be living in her mind according to all those in asylumverse, but she is living nonetheless in a world that she sees as existing. Who is to say that living in a dream is not the same as living in physical reality when perception is our only recourse of filtering reality anyway?

Oddly enough, such an argument can work into our real world and our creation of the Buffyverse. Who is to say that Sunnydale doesn't exist in some mass consciousness? Certainly we argue things such as "What is Buffy's father doing when Joyce died?" If we were to stick with a strict philosophy of "only what is filmed is true", then the simple answer to that is Buffy's father didn't exist when Joyce died, since he wasn't filmed at that point in time. By our ruminations on Buffy and her universe, we've established her universe in some sort of reality. The characters in the show exist beyond what is shown in each episode. Hank Summers could have been mowing his lawn when Joyce died, Faith could have been defending herself from another inmate, Angel could be getting ready for bed. Furthermore, we are presuming that in her youth Buffy went to the seashore with her father *AND* her sister, that Faith wrestled crocodiles, that the Mayor was alive and kicking before Buffy was even born. None of these were true in the physical sense. They were never filmed, but they have come to be true by our mass will.

[> [> [> Have you ever read Heinlein? He's better than French professors. -- Sophist, 20:12:03 03/17/02 Sun

Buffy was going to do away with them -- XanderFan, 06:23:50 03/14/02 Thu

Buffy was making decisions based on trying to remove her sister and her friends out of her life in an attempt to "get well".

It wasn't like she was being controlled by outside forces. She was in control of her decisions.

She thought it was ok to kill them because they weren't real. For her sister, that is going to hit too close to home.

[> Actually,wasn't she delusional thanks to the poison? -- AurraSing, 08:46:57 03/14/02 Thu

I think the poison in her system controlled a lot of her actions throughout "Normal Again",even down to the conversation she had with Willow about her brief stay in the 'mental'ward when she was young.
There are two ways of looking at this:
1.She was so far gone with the poison that she finally shared what was obviously one of the most traumatic times of her life with Willow.A secret that she has been too ashamed to share for 6 years.
or
2.The poison had her make up the story to try and help her cope with the visions of herself institutionalised and both of her parents there to comfort here.

Either way you chose to look at it,she was one sick puppy.Even Spike did not clue into her frame of mind when she told him to "go away" in the bedroom,even though it was the delusional self apparently speaking.And normally he can see through her bluff and bluster......

[> [> Re: Actually,wasn't she delusional thanks to the poison? -- Xander Fan, 10:36:10 03/14/02 Thu

She was only delusional in the belief that the people around her "weren't real" (or was she really coming out of her delusion by that realization? -I love ambiguity ). What she did with the information that they "weren't real" was all her.

She didn't want her friends or her sister in her life. This was a way to get rid of them without consequences (after all they were just figments of her imagination, so it's not wrong to "kill" them).

[> Re: Buffy was going to do away with them -- alcibiades, 08:54:35 03/14/02 Thu

You know, it's interesting that getting rid of Willow, Xander and Dawn can be read in two ways. OTOH, Buffy is doing what the doctor ordered -- she is removing the traps, her most comfortable delusions. Because these are the things holding her here in Sunnydale.

But OTOH, after months of denying Spike for the sake of Xander, and Willow and Dawn, Buffy has now figured out a sick and twisted way to rid herself of her friends and family to be able to be in the dark with Spike.

It's interesting that becoming a murderer in her own mind is easier than confronting her friends and telling them the truth about her.

SPIKE (O.S.)
You see? You try to be with them.
But you always end up in the dark.
With me.

Spike appears out of the shadows. Buffy doesn't turn around as he slides in close behind her.

SPIKE
What would they think of you? If
they found out all the things you've
done.

This is what Buffy fears. It terrifies her so greatly and she has turned it into such an inner demon that, instead of slaying this demon, parts of her mind are now contemplating killing Dawn and Xander and Willow rather than owning up to her actions and her positive feelings about Spike (not just the negative ones, which she fully owns up to).

She may think that this is what the Doctor (Spike) in the Buffyverse ordered -- it is the doctor in the institution who is immoral and tells her that anything, anything at all that she does to rid herself of these illusions is justified -- but it isn't. I think it would horrify Spike if he knew that this is her inner projection of him.

This is reminding me of a young adult book by SE Hinton, That was Then, This is Now.

At the end, the mother tells the main character (all of whose names I have forgotten), you punished your brother for not liking your girlfriend by having him sent to prison. And you punished your girlfriend for not liking your brother by dumping her.

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