June 2004 posts
A musing on the First
Evil -- Acolyte
of the Glorious One, 14:28:29 06/26/04 Sat
I was reading a review of the novel "Neuromancer" by
William Gibson. Unfortunately, my copy is 3000 miles away but
I was drawn to parallels between the AI Wintermute and the First
Evil.
Both manifest themselves in the shape of others. Neuromancer draws
on people it has personality files on to present itself to the
main characters in the novel. The First Evil can only appear in
the form of dead people (and the scary demon thing. This, however,
may not be its true form).
Why do these powerful entities limit themselves in such a way
instead of appearing in *any* form they choose? Perhaps the answer
lies in the fact that they are powerful entities.
Wintermute is a logical AI that is vastly more powerful, computationally,
than a human being. However, it lacks a personality. It is, essentially,
pure undiluted Willpower with goals and plans.
The First Evil is a being older than any other, beyond human comprehension.
Like Wintermute however, it lacks a personality of its own. Again,
it's pure Will and only interested in power.
However, we humans can't comprehend or deal with things like this.
It would be like trying to relate to a hurricane. So they scale
themselves down to talk to us.
In "Neuromancer", the explanations for Wintermute are
given:
'Why he has to come on as the Finn or somebody, he told me that.
It's not just a mask, it's like he uses real profiles as valves,
gears himself down to communicate with us.'
The First seems to operate in a similar way. When it appeared
to Faith in "Touch", it acted like Mayor Wilkins. Indeed,
it says: "Yeah, nobody's explained to you how this works,
have they? You see, I am part of The First, as you kids call it,
but I'm also me. Richard Wilkins III, late mayor and founder of
Sunnydale. " Also, when the First was taunting Spike at the
beginning of Season 7, each form it appeared in was in line with
that character. The Glory image ranted about how fabulous and
powerful it was. The Adam image spoke in logical terms of the
plan. The Master image was dismissive of someone weaker than it
and the Buffy image was a twisted presentation of Buffy.
The First Evil uses personalities to channel its will into a way
that makes sense to us. This howling storm of darkness has access
to these personalities that act like windows, allowing a small
glimpse at the power but shaping the way it flows out.
Why dead people though? When you're alive, your personality is
*yours*. However, once you're dead, you lose ownership rights
it seems and what was once you becomes public domain, whether
it's your body (zombies, vampires, necromancy) or your mind/personality
(the First Evil).
Hmm. long musing.
Who is the most poweful & baddest evil being
we have seen on Buffy or Angel? -- megaslayer, 14:45:40
06/22/04 Tue
On ANGEL my top 5 are is Illyria, the Beast, Vail, Saijhn, and
Angelus. They each are great beings of evil and power. On Buffy
I would say the my top five are The First, Angelus, Mayor, Faith,
and the Master.
Replies:
[> THE FIRST EVIL -- duh -- frisby, 15:14:24 06/22/04
Tue
Without any doubt, the first evil, what was often called the source
of all evil, even evil itself.
But of course, in Plato's _Republic_, where Socrates talks of
the biggest of all of the baddest lies (which is later replaced
by the one noble lie, the special one of all the fine lies) --
the trinitarian theology there espoused "may" be bigger
-----
[ya know, about uranus cronus zeus, and all that, their wars,
and the cover up about gaia...........
[> [> The First Evil was a wimp! -- Masq, 16:49:45
06/22/04 Tue
I am, of course, not talking about my evil alter-ego.
Or maybe I am....
At any rate, the First Evil? All flash, little substance. Personally,
I'd vote for Angelus, or Glory. Now *those* were apocalypsi.
[> [> [> a(t)po-calypso=definition-the dance we all
do in Chicago -- Ann, 17:00:31 06/22/04 Tue
running and hiding
[> [> [> Re: The First Evil was a wimp! -- Kana,
01:24:43 06/23/04 Wed
Yep, Angelus fan here. Personal torture is always better than
those big mwa ha ha plans of evil.
[> [> [> [> Well, actually... -- Masq, 06:08:45
06/23/04 Wed
I was thinking of Angelus' plan to suck the entire world into
hell.
Not my favorite Angelus moment, though. I liked his more personal
hands-on, mental torment brand of evil much better.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Well, actually... --
Kana, 06:55:53 06/23/04 Wed
Agreed, but I like the way he did it (Tried to suck the world
into hell) almost just to spite Buffy, oh yeah and the rest of
mankind as a side effect.
[> [> [> Some Room for Nuance on 'Bad' but not 'Big'
(depending on what evil 'is') -- frisby, 04:36:50 06/23/04
Wed
I think there's no question that each season's 'big bad' gets
bigger with the master the least and the first evil the biggest.
That's true at least in a formal sense, as other posters on this
forum have noted in so many wonderful ways (my favorite was perhaps
the seven chakras, beginning with Buffy overcoming her own destiny
at the end of season one). As for 'baddest' I reckon we'd have
to define our terms to some extent before determining the various
shades of evil the big bads exemplify. In other ways, such as
personal fears, some of us might find Angelus worse than Glory,
or whatever, but there is at least one important sense (I think
of it as a formal sense) in which each season's big bad is bigger
and badder than any before, with the first evil standing for the
biggest and baddest period.
But then, I suppose these things ultimately depend on our understanding
of 'evil' -- my friend has taught his course on evil several times
now -- I'll discuss this matter with him (he's also a big buffy
fan) and maybe (if the thread isn't archived) add some further
and/or different thoughts.
Personally, the scariest villains were the gentlemen. And according
to Nietzsche, it is philosophy which is he evil principle par
excellance -- but what 'is' evil?
[> [> [> on second thought -- frisby, 14:46:58
06/23/04 Wed
i do have to admit, after further consideration, that angelus
and his attempt to suck the world into hell was very bad and very
very big
it's also probably the most emotional finale, although five and
seven have their own special moments too
hmmm
[> [> [> Wimp? Almost Beat Angel! -- frisby, 07:08:20
06/24/04 Thu
If not for the miracle of the snow (due to the powers that be
if not pure chance) the First Evil would have ended Angel. Buffy
was able to make Angel a champion and give him a mission, but
only because the miracle saved him from self-destruction at the
direction of the First Evil.
The powers of the first evil may not be pure and simple such as
with the case of brute force, but they are surely formidable.
And that army of a million ubervamps does supply a modicum of
brute force too. With Caleb as his/her hand, the Watcher's Council
was to some degree destroyed. And the entire town of Sunnydale
would disagree with that status of 'wimp' -- I believe you stand
corrected -- surely the First Evil was no wimp (he/she simply
had to work in mysterious ways). But then, has not evil always
preferred to machinate its designs from behind the scenes, most
often using deception rather than out and out assault or face
to face confrontation?
No?
[> The Big Bads -- Wizard, 18:00:47 06/22/04 Tue
It's a little hard to judge. Each of them had acheived some part
of their master plan until those meddling kids got involved. All
were great character concepts (if the execution was sometimes
a bit off). They each had their strengths and weaknesses. So,
to analyze them:
"If you hadn't come, I couldn't go. Think about that."
Heinrich Joseph Nest, the Master of the Order of Aurelius: He
had style,and great power. When a vamp permanently takes on a
demonic appearance, it is a sign of great age and power. He succeeded
in escaping his imprisonment, and he actually did the one thing
none of the others accomplished: he killed Buffy, albeit for a
few minutes. And if it wasn't for him, we wouldn't have the Fanged
Four.
"Ah... I never get tired of doing that."
Angelus, a.k.a. Liam of Galway, a.k.a. Angel: It can be (and has
been) argued that most vampires (and other demons) are not *evil*
per se, but instead simply act upon their natures. An evil vampire
is a scary thing, and this is one of the worst. Ambitious, cunning,
intelligent, powerful, sadistic... all of these describe Angelus.
He is the only Big Bad to permanently kill a Scoobie. He has the
distinction of being the only Big Bad existing at the end of 'Buffy.'
"That's one spunky little girl you've raised. I'm gonna eat
her."
Richard Wilkins, the Mayor of Sunnydale: Genius or maniac? With
the possible exception of the First, the Mayor's plan took the
longest to reach fruition. He bears an as-yet undetermined degree
of responsibility for almost every supernatural death that ever
took place on the show, because he built the town on the Hellmouth
for his own selfish ends. Unlike the Master or Angelus, he still
retained vestiges of humanity, and had many quirks. He had humour
and style, genuinely loved Faith, and had the best 'last words'
I have ever heard on television. Killing him required the destruction
of Sunnydale High, and was preceded by the show's best battle
scene (IMO). He killed Snyder! And how can you not like someone
that turns into a giant penis- er, snake? :D
"Mother."
Adam: I really don't know what went wrong here. He was brilliant,
incredibly powerful, and managed the impossible- uniting 'pure'
demons and half-breeds into an army- through sheer force of will.
He took an elite unit of the U.S. Army and would have won. It
took the 'Super-Slayer' to kill him. There were even (bare) hints
of pathos to him, as if Frankenstein's monster went evil early
on. So why was he so damn... blah? Underdeveloped? Poorly acted?
Not properly planned? Spent too much time around Spike/James Marsters,
and consequently upstaged?
"Did anybody else know the Slayer was a robot?"
Glorificus, a.k.a. Glory: The first female Big Bad, and arguably
the worst. She was far more powerful and durable than Buffy, and
could have killed her quite easily if she didn't need her. She
drove many residents of Sunnydale insane, including Tara. She
had style. She was self-centred, shallow, a touch ditzy, and utterly
ruthless. Her motivation was understandable from a human perspective,
but she didn't care that our world/dimension would be overrun.
She actually came closer to success than any of the others except
Angelus. Plus, her minions were an absolute riot. Finally, she
was a God. Even in her lessened state, that puts her above any
of the others except the First.
"How do you like my darkness now?"
Dark!Willow: This Big Bad was the most personal of them all. Willow
was commonly seen to be the best of the Scoobies (at least by
the others in the Core Four), so her fall was even more painful
for them. She would have destroyed the entire world, if it wasn't
for Xander, whose unrelenting loyalty and love saved Willow, and
the world. And she looks good in black.
"It's about power."
The First Evil: Like Adam, this one suffered from something. Poor
planning? I don't know what it was. As originally written, the
First was a purely spiritual threat, as impossible to destroy
as the Senior Partners. It had some truly impressive servants-
the Bringers were scary, the Turok-Han (the first one) had real
potential, and Caleb was a credible physical threat to Buffy,
which was an increasingly rare thing as the series went on. So
why did the First fall flat? Poor planning by ME? Too much deviation
from the original concept? You tell me.
So who is the best? My money is on Angelus, the Mayor, or Glory.
[> [> Re: The Big Bads -- Ames, 10:38:36 06/23/04
Wed
Nicely summarized, both Wizard and Brian.
If we split the Big Bads into those with god-like power and the
lesser beings, the god-like would include:
Glory
The First Evil
Wolf, Ram and Hart
Jasmine
Illyria
Of these I would have to go with Jasmine as the most powerful.
Consider:
- She said that she was one of the elder beings from a higher
plane of existence, and the evidence certainly supported that
- She easily thwarted the active efforts of TPTB and WR&H to stop
her
- She had the greatest actual effect on the world: blotting out
the sun, demons running wild throughout LA, mind-controlling the
city of LA, and then the state of California, and then nearly
the entire world
Her goal was to control this entire dimension, and she came closest
to doing it.
Her brand of evil was the scariest because it had an attractive
face and seductive reasoning behind it (world peace and happiness
at the cost of a few thousand lives a year willingly sacrificed).
But even she had some weaknesses. Blood magic broke her hold on
individuals. Killing Connor or Cordelia might have destroyed her
or at least banished her from this dimension. And of course Angel's
solution defeated her - and most likely TPTB had some subtle hand
in that.
Against that you have ... what?
The Incorporeal Taunter
Skanky Lop-Sided Ass
The old "barely above the vampires" gang
Rip van Illyria
At least Illyria had great lines: "I will shred my adversaries.
Pull their eyes out just enough to turn them towards their mewing,
mutilated faces."
[> My mental bad guy rolodex: -- BrianWilly, 03:20:02
06/23/04 Wed
The Master: Though he loses points for Fruit Punch Mouthiness,
I'm always disappointed that the Master doesn't usually get his
well-deserved props. We all know that Buffy was Joss's reimagined
Dumb Blonde Chick. Well, if that's so, then then the Master is
Joss's reimagined Overpowering Male Stalker. Let's just take a
moment to look at him; hee is the ULTIMATE monster who awaits
helpless females in the darkness, the ultimate dastardly, repulsive,
antagonistic being whose presence itself demands submission from
both his fellow predators and their prey. As we watched "Prophecy
Girl" unfold before us, it's as if we are watching the rape
fantasy told hundreds of times before, it's as if the cinematic
cliche of the monster preying on the helpless female is retaking
its rightful place in the world. "You've had your fun, your
little pretend game," the Master seems to be saying..."Now
it's time for me to take back my world."
Angel: Back then, they weren't even calling him Angelus(and when
they did, they pronounced it wrong!).
"Innocence/Surprise" will always stand to me as the
one moment that changed not only BtVS forever, but the entire
face of television. What's weird is that it's been done before
many times, the lover/close ally who turns evil. We should have
seen it coming, but we didn't; Angel was a necessity on the show,
he was Buffy's love. The one thing in her freaky world that still
made any sense to her. And let's face it: David Boreanaz played
Angel well, but it's not as if the role called for incredible
range. Angel without his soul...WOW. That was something to be
watching. "Don't tell me...he's changed. He's not the same
person you fell in love with." That's one way to put it,
yeah.
And then she killed him. Wow again.
The Mayor: You know what? I'm amoung the minority that didn't
actually think the Mayor was all that. I did like him and the
season 3 finale remains in my mind to be the best Buffy season
finale of all seven years...I was completely FLABBERGHASTED when
the students ripped off their robes to reveal weapons. Did NOT
see that coming regardless of how awesome and fitting it was.
But I compare the Mayor to all these others and I dunno...he's
probably my least favorite. Though he gets points for the corruption
of Faith and eating Snyder...well, that last bit doesn't really
count as evil I suppose.
Adam: I'm amoung the minority who really, really liked
Adam. I just did. He was just cool. He had MACHINE GUN ARMS. And
shot rockets! How can you top that!? You just can't. I'm sorry.
As in love as I am with the darkly crazysexycool mythological
intrigues of the show, sometimes you really just need a cyborg
demon with machine gun arms. As cool as various other Buffy beatdowns
have been, the Scoobs in the Initiate warzone and UberBuffy vs
Adam remains one of my most favoritest.
Glory: I dunno if she counts as the most powerful or biggest baddest
evil thing, but to me Glory was definitely the hardest to defeat
on either show. I mean, she rendered Buffy catatonic by shear
force of undefeatability. She appeared relatively early in the
season and right off the bat kicked Buffy's skinny aerobicized
behind all the way up the street. People saying that Illyria or
Jasmine or Dark Willow are obviously more powerful than Glorificus
obviously forgot the part where she slaughtered the entire army
of the Knights of the Byzantium in something like six seconds;
she's insane and talks a lot and vain and has several weak spots,
but this hellgod's no pushover.
Her ultimate defeat took not one or two brilliantly inspired ideas(as
implemented towards other Big Bads), but a total of eight:
Olaf's hammer, the Dagon Sphere, Willow's brain suck, Tara's sense
of direction, the Buffybot, Xander's glorified bowling, Giles'
ultimate murder of Ben, and Buffy's ultimate sacrifice. As in
all the best Buffy beatdowns, it took the combined efforts of
the entire gang.
Willow: Of all these baddies, my personal favorite. I guess what
Xander said is true: she can be veiny and scary and apocalyptic,
but one can't help but always love Willow.
Again, we've seem this before; the show self-admittedly refers
to both Darth Vader and Dark Phoenix, giving props to originality
where it's due. But it's Willow. And that makes all the difference.
We know Willow. We've seen Willow grow. And it doesn't matter
that her arc from the very first episode led perfectly
and believably up to this dark transformation, it still pains
to see she of the softer side of Sears rip people apart, blast
through buildings, utilize a truck as a battering ram, and psychologically
tear into her closest family. Hers was the one real motivation
that we can all sympathize with: Tara. Hey, if I loved someone
like Tara and then lost her to a stray bullet, I'd be all kinds
of evil too. Some people try to pass the whole Dark Willow metaphor
off as simply as "drugs are bad," and boy are those
people completely missing the point.
I'm not a big "cry at the movies" sort of guy and despite
my love of the show, only three episodes in all seven excellent
years had ever moved me to tears. The first two were The Body/Forever
for obvious reasons, and the third was in "Grave" during
Xander's salvation of Willow.
The First Evil: Again, I probably like the First more than other
people do. Hey. it's not its fault that it's incorporeal and basically
powerless. The fact is that The First genuinely represented the
biggest threat Buffy ever faced: An army of hundreds of superpowered
vampires, numbers swelling every minute, spawned from the dark
energies of the Hellmouth itself, loving nothing more than to
swallow the entire human race one by one. There was no individual
horror to defeat like with the Master and the Mayor and no "trigger"
like with Acathla or Glory or Adam. They're coming and there's
nothing you can do...either wipe them all out, or die trying.
I look at the First as having basically the same powers as Sauron:
it's potentially omniscient, though it can be distracted and can't
observe every single thing at once. It's incorporeal, but infects
the will of its soldiers with its malice and power and can twist
the minds of others. And most importantly, it lies expertly and
likes nothing more than to turn allies against each other, which
it does. When you really think about it, that's actually a whole
lot of power.
And whatever else it's got going for it, you can't deny that the
First has its intimidation skills down. "From beneath
you, it devours..." "Oh no, not 'it.' Me."
Jasmine: In my mind, Jasmine loses a lot of points simply for
the convoluted retcon which spawned her and the mere connection
to Evil Cordy. Let's be frank, mmkay? Evil Cordy gave us some
pretty intense and well-crafted scenes -- the threeway moral debate
between Darla, Cordy, and Conner spring to mind -- but Evil Cordy
was a mistake, plain and simple. Evil Cordy should not have been.
Ptui! We shall speak no more of her!
But once Jasmine came out, I have to admit that she was great.
Hers was the evil that wasn't really. On the one hand, we know
instinctively the the loss of free will is something abhorrently
evil and inhumane, and yet...world peace is a pretty sweet deal
if you think about it. I always say it's interesting that the
Big Bads on Buffy mostly always represented a physical threat,
whereas the first time Angel got a Big Bad on this scale she represented
an abstract threat.
The Wolf, Ram, and Hart: The Senior Partners are the Big Bads
that I really liked at first, but kind of got on a my nerves after
five years...kind of the same with the Powers That Be, really.
You never see them and you only ever actually hear about
their power and not witness it. And actually, I think they got
a little bit too powerful for the show's own good...I'd venture
to say that yes, these guys are the most powerful evil of the
entire Buffyverse.
Think about it: they pretty much just started off as an isolated
evil law firm. It was a cute and clever little twisted way to
begin our foray into LA, but nothing more than that. As the show
went on, we find out that they're not only into legal work, but
other aspects of big business and entrepreneurship as well. Okay,
expanding the allegory...nothing wrong with that. But then
we find out that not only are they intertwined in all aspects
of big business on this planet, but that they're multidimensional
as well. Well this is the Buffyverse...might as well give them
an epic mythological undertone, right?
And THEN, we find out that not only are they multidimensional,
but that they command vast legions of hell and can essentially
change reality the way they see fit. I mean, I know that ME wanted
to get across the idea that evil is big and can't ever be really
purged and that we're just insects compared to the vastness of
corruption in the world...I just don't know if maybe they got
their point across a bit too well.
Illyria: She could have went wrong in so many ways, but didn't...in
fact she ended up as my favorite aspect of season 5. The whole
time-space control thing really heightened her intrigue, too.
But beyond that she was just so interesting...she was one
of the ancient primeval godforces in the Buffyverse such as the
Powers or The First or the Senior Partners or even Glorificus.
The difference with Illyria is that not only has she been asleep
and thus isolated from the world for the last millenia or so,
she actually doesn't take part in the eternal good vs evil struggle,
nor does she particularly want to. She was frozen in a time where
power was everything and thus warfare was the norm. The Senior
Partners were perhaps the original slave class of her Nietzschean
world view, using subtlety and wiles as opposed to natural force
and prestige to gain power...they have changed over the course
of time to become the beings they are today. The First maybe represented
the entire origin of Illyria's "It's about power"
philosophy and yet we see that the First has evolved with time
and partakes in the grand debate of Kantian morality; it knows
enough about the new world morality to manipulate it for its own
Nitzschean ends. Glory probably shares Illyria's philosophy on
the power structure more than anyone else, but whereas Illyria
is new to this new world of humans, Glory has been active all
this time and is well-versed on the human condition(well enough
to scoff at it, at least). Again, it must be said that Illyria
was frozen in time...she knew one way of life and now is confronted
with an entirely new way. She couldn't really judge it;
at first, she didn't know enough about it to understand it and
she didn't understand enough about it to look favorably or disfavorably
upon it. Over time she mocks Angel's morals and imparts ancient
governmental procedures to the gang, but it always seemed to me
that as condescending as she was towards this new world, she just
as readily wanted to learn and have others teach her more about
it.
These are all the major power baddies I can think of at the hour...it's
3 in the morning and if I've forgotten anyone...well, I'm sure
it'll be a shock to absolutely no one.
[> Re: Who is the most poweful & baddest evil being we have
seen on Buffy or Angel? -- skeeve, 08:19:54 06/24/04 Thu
On Angel the contenders are Jasmine and Illyria.
On Buffy, the First, Glory, the Judge, and the World-sucker activated
by Angelus.
[> [> Re: Who is the most poweful & baddest evil being
we have seen on Buffy or Angel? -- Kana, 08:43:06 06/24/04
Thu
I'm not sure about most powerful, but the scariest villain for
me was Ryan in 'IGYUMS'. A boy that an Ethros demon is afraid
of? Makes me shudder.
[> [> What about Dark Willow? -- frisby, 09:00:56
06/24/04 Thu
Dark Willow was pretty blessed powerful -- a hard core nihilist
who almost destroyed the world -- she should be in the running
at least.
[> [> [> oops, yes Dark Willow -- skeeve, 11:33:25
06/25/04 Fri
What is destiny? (Spoilers
through to AtS season 4) -- Kana, 05:50:17 06/28/04 Mon
And how does Lorne read it exactly? I think they mentioned in
the show that he senses souls so how is one's soul linked to one's
destiny? (What would Lorne see if he read Ryan from 'IGYUMS'?)
Could he read a soul in a jar like say Angel's? I know people
have to sing to bare their souls, but a soul in a jar is more
or less naked isn't it? How are the destinies of Angel and Angelus
linked? Maybe he doesn't read their souls as much as a combination
of their soul AND essence, like their memories and personalities
like the thing that is left in the body when the demon takes over
when a person is vamped.
How much does Lorne read when one sings? Does he see what is in
their immediate destiny or deeper? Following Wes singing with
Gunn and Cordy in 'Redefinition' Lorne says to Angel that he was
going to be playing a huge...
Why didn't he see what Wes going to do with Conner before he hummed
that lullaby, which happened less than a year later but in 'The
House Always Wins' he can see what people are destined for in
the next decade or so.
Replies:
[> Re: What is destiny? (Buffy season 4) -- frisby,
11:07:51 06/30/04 Wed
In the episode after 'Hush' in season 4 (or the next episode),
Buffy says to Riley: "For you, this is an adventure, but
for me, it's destiny!"
It's the difference between Odysseus/Achilles on the one hand
(the heroes of adventure), and Oedipus/Orestes on the other (the
figures of tragic destiny).
Buffy is 'chosen' -- being the slayer is her destiny.
[> [> So...what is destiny? -- Kana, 00:39:58
07/01/04 Thu
So how does this link to one's soul or aura? When people's destinies
were were being jacked in 'The House Always Wins' what exactly
is being taken, can you really take a destiny away from somebody?
Ultimately even if you have no direction, then you still have
a fate. What Lorne said to Angel about how his friends were a
part from his destiny could apply to anyone with close friends.
Buffy was the Slayer but I felt that her feelings for her friends
had an effect on the decisions she made as a Slayer and her being
a Slayer affected the destinies of her friends. It seems that
desinies can be inextricably linked. Although we die alone, how
we get there, why we are there, that's a different story.
Also the Tro-clon, although Sahjhan was a manipulative so and
so, he was right when he said that Holtz and Angel's destinies
were linked.
But seriously -- Kana,
05:54:30 06/28/04 Mon
Is Wes wearing contacts? I know I've asked this before but I never
really got an answer. I am short sighted. I wonder if inner darkness
and edge of the razor mystique can render me with perfect vision.
Replies:
[> How about a drabble challenge? -- Sheri, 13:30:31
06/28/04 Mon
Ok... here's the challenge:
In exactly one hundred words, explain why Wesley no longer wears
glasses. :)
[> [> Re: How about a drabble challenge? -- Kana,
13:48:27 06/28/04 Mon
I think they should have shown an ep with Wes putting some contacts
in or right in the middle of a vamp fight, one of them could have
fallen out so he's busy fending off the minoins of darkness while
he tries to find his missing lens.
[> [> "That Other Vision Thing" -- a little
drabble by Sheri, 14:04:21 06/28/04 Mon
He brushed his cheek and noted that, as usual, he was long overdue
for a shave. So much for the old uptight "rogue demon hunter"
Wesley. That was before the world around him was changed by prophecies
whispering in his ear, influencing his every action.
He was never sure what came first: the prophecy or his actions.
Exacerbated, he removed his glasses and rubbed his eyes. Reaching
for his scotch, he let the glasses slip from his fingers. Bemused,
he crushed the glasses under foot. "Perhaps the way to be
free from prophecies is to not read them at all."
[> [> How about this? -- Ann, 14:45:20 06/28/04
Mon
Wesley looked in the mirror and saw a man remember that time,
that time that he and Lilah were on the plush carpet of her living
room. She took them off his face; his surprised but ultimately
thrilled face, and dropped them.
"Watch this!" she cursed. Irritated, she stomped down
and crushed his glasses beneath her high heels. She ground them
into the carpet next to him. Lying there looking up at her, he
grabbed her ankle and pulled her to him. She fell in the shards
of glass, the bent frames sticking in her back.
"Watch this!" he murmured.
[> [> [> Or this (//-iness within, hee) -- Ann,
15:05:18 06/28/04 Mon
Because Sherri said to:
Wesley looked in the mirror and saw a man remember that time,
that time that he and Angel were on the plush carpet of his living
room. Angel took them off Wes's face; his surprised but ultimately
thrilled face, and dropped them.
"Watch this!" Angel cursed. Irritated, he stomped down
and crushed Wes' tortoise-shelled glasses beneath his black boots.
Angel ground them into the carpet next to Wes. Lying there looking
up at Angel, he grabbed his ankle and pulled him down. Angel fell
in the shards of glass, the bent frames sticking in his back.
"Watch this!" Wes murmured.
[> [> Sorry couldn't resist. Just had to do this one
for Scroll -- Lunasea, 17:38:09 06/28/04 Mon
Wesley needs a break from the LA scene. There are just too many
memories, so he heads out to Cheyenne Mountain in Colorado to
visit an old friend. He obtains his security badge and heads down
into the belly of the mountain. When the elevator doors open,
sirens are blaring. Wesley is greeted by a geeky, but in an incredibly
sexy way, man holding some files.
"I know you just got here," starts Dr. Daniel Jackson,
"but something just came in. These gentlemen will show you
to my office."
These gentlemen are two men in complete combat gear. Wesley wants
to get a closer look at their rifles, but he has a feeling they
won't share. Wordlessly, they all make their way down the hall.
The sirens are no longer going off when they arrive at a room.
Wesley enters and the two guards stay outside.
"Guess I'm not going anywhere," he thinks as he looks
around.
In the center of the room is a large sarcophagus. Wesley goes
over to investigate. The lid opens as he approaches it. It is
empty. He decides to climb in to get a closer look. As he does,
the lid closes.
(I'll end there before the slashy nonsense starts. awwwww. do
I really have to?)
so it's a little long. I didn't even get to the fun slash where
the lid opens and Daniel is there and they kiss and...sigh.
[> [> Evil Eyes -- q 3, 21:28:27 06/28/04 Mon
(Sometime during Home.)
LILAH: So much unused potential. If you could only see it.
WESLEY: What? What are you--
LILAH: In that head of yours! Here. (Hands him a business card.)
You can thank me later, when you see what a wonderful gift this
is.
WESLEY: Doctor Sparrow? Where've I heard that name before...?
-later-
SPARROW: We could also get you a new neck, if you wanted.
WESLEY: No! Angel thinks this scar is sexy! He'd never
forgive me if it were removed.
SPARROW: Now, why's that?
WESLEY: Because it reminds him of... um... Oh dear. What was I
saying?
[> Maybe he got laser eye surgery -- dlgood, 09:32:56
06/29/04 Tue
[> [> Re: Maybe he got laser eye surgery -- Kana,
11:01:21 06/29/04 Tue
Vanity prevailent at such a troubled time. A complicated man is
our Wesley.
The Mind-Wipe, WhedonWorld,
and Angel S5 Character Arcs -- Darby, 13:13:32 06/29/04
Tue
This is kind of long - blame cjl's Season 5 reviews for getting
my mind percolating!
To discuss Season Five, we have to start with where things were
when we finished Season Four: Wolfram and Hart had given Angel
a new start for Connor by changing history, or at least the memory
of it in the minds of those who knew him. When we open Season
Five, some time has passed, and the characters now ensconced at
W&H are the old AI gang, but thanks to their mental "adjustment,"
not quite.
Mutant Enemy shows set up seasonal arcs through the emotional
development (or regression) of the characters, with the seasonal
plot(s) and villains in support of this. Not to get too oversimplified,
but the arcs must have a beginning, middle, and an end, but for
this beginning the characters had just had well over a
year of their lives "adjusted" to remove their memories
of Connor. I believe that a lot of preparatory thought went into
figuring out who these new characters were, and that the seasonal
arcs were mostly about getting each character back to who they
should be. In the Jossian tack of "Don't give them what they
want, give them what they need," it seems to have been decided
to give the viewers as little information about the Mind-Wipe
as the writers could get away with - they could show us,
but they were going to try not to tell us.
In many ways, Season Five Angel wound up being about the
themes that had been set for Season Seven Buffy but which
were not quite realized. It was, again, all about power (BtVS
was sporadically about power, and ended up being about empowerment,
which is not the same thing; and while Buffy was about the responsibility
of power, Angel would be about its corrupting influence), and
it was literally Back to the Basics / Beginning - at the end,
even the wardrobe in Not Fade Away screamed this.
I'd like to look at each character in terms of how they entered
Home, how they had been changed, and how they worked through
their individual arcs...
Underlying most of the characters this season was their beginning
in the mind-wipe mode. I think that the writing staff knew exactly
what the spell did to everyone, and leaked clues without explanation:
it removed from active memory some aspects of the progression
that the characters had gone over since Darla had reappeared,
pregnant, a couple of years before. Those memories could not be
accessed (the first line of defense was that it was hard to even
consider them, and where necessary, new memories covered
especially important turns in the individuals' lives. For some,
their personal developments only connected tangentially to Connor
(Lorne, for example), and so the S5 - S6 transition was smooth.
For others, much of what they went through was firmly connected
to the Connor story, so they lost a lot (it must have been especially
maddening - literally so - for Wesley). Much of Season Five was
about restoring in those characters what they had lost, restoring
the people they had been when they got into that W&H limousine...
Fred: Connor Connection Fred had originally
been attracted to Wesley and Gunn, but Gunn made his interests
known more quickly and changed the nature of their relationship,
shifting Fred's attachment to Wes toward the sisterly / collegial.
But the attraction had been there, even to the less heroic, pre-Dark
Wesley. Later, while Angel was at the bottom of the ocean and
Cordy was, um, elsewhere, Fred and Gunn ran the agency and went
from boyfriend-girlfriend to something considerably deeper, becoming
Connor's de facto parents. Connor's betrayal released some
darkness from Fred we hadn't seen before, which set up the events
with Fred's old professor; however, what happened with him was
not directly connected to the Connor situation. Mind-Wipe
Adjustment: Much of Fred's relationship with Gunn had
to be submerged, removing most of the intimacy - how could they
look at each other without dipping into memories of those days
together with Connor? What they could access was that final tension
over the professor's death, which added to the estrangement, which
is what we saw into the season. The Wesley that Fred had rejected
way back when was not now the Wesley of early Season Four, though,
but much more confident, much more externally like a cerebral
Angel - much more Fred's type. Arc: Fred the lab
manager started off very unsure of herself, regressed somewhat
to pre-Connor Fred, but through the early season her more-confident
post-Connor self asserted itself (although the darker aspects
of that surprised her). Some of what we saw was a willingness
to wield her power and a liking for the power she had been given.
She never really reconnected with Gunn, had trouble connecting
with Knox as their boss-employee relationship clarified (he also
had a kind of youth that might have subconsciously touched on
Connor and his betrayal, and which turned out to be what was going
to happen), and began to really see New Wesley as pieces
of her own submerged persona tore to the surface. Did she miss
having a lover and start to cast around to all of the males in
the vicinity? - They all seemed very smitten with her when it
was time for her to leave. Of the wiped minds, she and Wesley
recovered their characters' lost developments perhaps the fastest,
maybe because those developments might have occurred independent
of what happened with Connor, or maybe because they were trickiest
to keep buried. It might be this emergence that foreshadowed the
effect that Fred would have on Illyria - her persona just couldn't
be completely subjugated by magical overlay. Illyria came in as
a type of outsider character, but quickly became trapped between
her old and host persona, linked to a human (Wesley) who didn't
want her but whom she found she wanted to please. How much of
Illyria is the echo of Fred? More time on this was needed, but
I think that was largely answered in her last scene with Wesley.
Gunn: Connor Connection Gunn's stint as the
co-runner with Fred of AI and a broadening of his confidence is
all connected very much to the presence of Connor, and
the real meat of his relationship with Fred runs through the Connor
period. Only his Bondish adventure with Gwen didn't require significant
adjustment. Mind-Wipe Adjustment: With Connor removed
from his mental continuity, Gunn has lost a lot of his relationship
to Fred and a lot of his development beyond simply being "the
muscle" in the group, although a feeling of his potential
would strongly be there. Arc: What place does this
Gunn have in Wolfram and Hart? He was enticed in with the promise
of an instant education and credentials that will make him uniquely
valuable in a way he never had been before, but it will connect
him to this new situation more strongly than any of the others.
He remembers a relationship with Fred but has lost the most meaningful
period, and even being in contact with her is difficult, so they
barely acknowledge each other. Gunn spends the season being the
legal muscle and enjoying it, recovering his lost confidence but
in a more unnatural progression than that seen in the others.
The artificial improvements don't last (as part of the W&H plan
or does it turn out to be just convenient?), and renewing them
is one of the rare times where there really are major consequences
for using magic. By the last episode, the old Gunn is back, but
the return is cathartic - the loss of Fred, which should tear
out his heart, requires that act literally, and the Gunn that
returns from suburban Hell has accepted himself as he is / was,
even dressing the part and spending his last day checking in on
the old neighborhood (with the only person there who he might
expect to be less-than-pissed at him).
Lorne: Connor Connection The main impact
of Connor was how it linked him to Angel and distanced him from
Wesley - most of his ties to the others came from living at the
Hyperion after his club blew up. Mind-Wipe Adjustment:
Removing Connor from Lorne's memories would have had perhaps the
least impact of any of the affected characters - it would have
taken away some of his memories of Angel, both his softer Daddy
side and his harder Find-Connor-at-all-costs side, which could
color his reactions to CEO Angel. Arc: As Wolfram
and Hart becomes more Angel's baby (Connor connection-?) and the
other characters get absorbed into the beast and distant from
each other, Lorne gradually loses interest in his new toys and
his reason to stay. Lorne's motivations have always been either
the simplest - help folks find their true path - or the cloudiest
- why does he care? - but he does have a history of moving on
when he gets a mind to. In the end, Pylean demons don't just want
to have fun.
Wesley: Connor Connection The Connor plotlines
were a major speedbump in the development of the Dark Wesley that
had begun to emerge during the battle with Holtz - Wes lost his
confidence and his ties to the group through the way he dealt
with the Son/Father prophecies. When Connor was lost, Wesley was
exiled; when Angel was lost, Wes descended well into the Pit to
find him. During that time, he was forced to realize that Fred
was never going to be his - and he accepted this, because he didn't
really feel worthy of her (Lilah was a different issue). Mind-Wipe
Adjustment: This had to be the most difficult removal
- with these select memories taken, what now served to motivate
Wes' crisis of confidence, his removal from the group, and then
his return? What did he now recall of the Fred-Gunn relationship?
Arc: Season Five Wesley is an uneven mix of previous
Wesleys, with the amoral Dark Wes stirring just under the surface.
He carries his estrangement somewhat subconsciously, linked with
a desperate need to be part of the group, and when a crack of
hope opens for getting Fred, he skirts the edge (some things never
change) until she pulls him over it. The returned memories don't
help Wesley, he has trouble dealing with the lost extremes of
his life. Having Illyria around allows him to fall into a bizarre
Watcher-default mode, something he can at least function in. Wesley
can't let go of his love, has to continually convince himself
that Fred is truly gone, but it's too painful for him. His future
did look the bleakest, so he was the most logical to go - how
long could he have been so close and so far from Ms. Burkle?
Angel: Connor Connection Angels' fatherhood
was the main thrust of his character development for the last
two years, leading to the ultimate sacrifice of giving up all
contact with his son for Connor's chance at a normal life. The
loss of Connor left Angel disconnected from his mission and dissatisfied
with the course of action that lost his son. Mind-Wipe Adjustment:
Do we believe that Angel never sat Eve down and got all of the
details of what had been done for him? He had to know how
the mind-wipe worked, if only to know how to avoid creating conflicts
in his friends' heads. Arc: Angel as Mutant
Enemy, working through the Firefly paradigm at first -
a high concept that the Powers totally don't get, and even his
collaborators can't always grasp properly. If Angel has taken
Buffy's place as Joss' surrogate, the seasonal arc plays as the
big-fish-in-a-little-pond changes bodies of water, grasps for
a bit too much, trusts the wrong people, and suffers the consequences.
Interviews with Joss hint that he has distanced himself from the
rank-and-file as he has had more shows to run, and Angel does
this through the course of the season if not the series. How much
can you work within a corrupt system and still do "good"?
How long do you struggle, how much power do you give over to the
Senior Patrners, before you have to assert yourself and
save your soul? How much do we suspect Joss had to do with getting
the head of the network fired (is Rubin the dragon in the last
scene?), and how much wrath in the tv industry has he brought
upon himself doing it? Or am I reading too much into those closing
images?
Angel's relationships with the others were subtle determinants
of the arc. He most connected through the early season with those
who, to him, seemed to be taking the transition the most smoothly.
Perhaps they would be most likely to accept the mind-wipe, or
it was just that Angel felt less guilty with those showing the
fewest effects from the change? He got along the longest with
Lorne and Gunn, and as Wesley and then Fred began to worry about
what they were accomplishing, he consulted with them less. He
never lost the need to be Fred's knight, though, and so took her
death hard. Through the course of the season, he often saw Wesley
as an irritant, getting colder and shorter with him - did he think
that Wes, of all of them, would see his "dark turn"
more quickly and take it more seriously? The relationships that
strengthened through the season were the new or renewed ones,
with Spike and Nina. With Spike, Angel had someone who both annoyed
him but had no real importance in the scheme, someone he could
use as a sounding board not by seeking him out but because he
couldn't get rid of him; the season played out with Spangel working
out their issues - including a major one in Italy - and fitting
back into a working partnership. In Nina, Angel had someone who
was available but completely beyond the dirty sphere he was working,
someone who accepted him for who / what he was until he needed
her out of harm's way, a new cute blonde with her own dark side
who doesn't threaten his curse.
Connor: Connor Connection I'm glad I don't
really have to explain this, since I really don't understand Connor's
development through the Jasmine storyline. Mind-Wipe Adjustment:
Connor got a whole new life, with his true background covered
over. We don't know if New Son is a fabrication, or if he replaced
another teen-ager - the second seems like it would be both easier
to do and not a problem for W&H, but it is a bit creepy. Arc:
Connor's arc is abbreviated but significant in how it interacts
with Angel's arc. Although not compelled to make happy endings,
it seems ME wanted Angel's decision to save Connor to have worked
out all right, to settle that aspect of the overall story. With
Connor so accepting of his true background, it's a bit too pat,
but what can you do with such limited dialogue opportunities and
the need to get him involved at the end?
Spike: Arc: With no Connor connection, Spike
comes in from dying under Sunnydale without influence from the
mind-wipe, but not unchanged. He had spent the last season on
Buffy unsure that his new soul had significantly altered
him, right up until his true willingness to sacrifice convinced
him that it was really there. Then he's dead, and then he's back
from what he is convinced was the brink of Hell, linked in some
bizarre way to the building now ruled by Angel. Spike's history
shows a character that pulls his persona from those around him
(that's how he manages to shift roles within the cast so well);
we've seen him as the rebellious kid brother in the Fang Gang,
the grandiose protector paired with Drusilla, the erratic stalker
of Buffy without Dru, the frustrated, chipped hanger-on with the
Scoobies, and then the hopeless lover-of-Buffy. At Wolfram and
Hart, Spike takes his cues from his past - he falls back into
annoying Angel and linking to the local damsel, Fred, plays out
what he now sees as his role as Champion (but it's largely an
act - he cares about the folks he cares about, but not much for
the huddled masses), and gradually he rises to a level of comfort,
especially with Angel, who turns out to be potentially a true
comrade and who also wants someone in his life who understands
his issues. Like Angel, the season is a re-examination of who
Spike has been and who he's going to be. Spike comes to understand
that there really is no place for him in Buffy's life, but he's
lousy at being alone. No wonder all of the proposed Spike spin-offs
pair him with a strong female lead.
Lindsey: Arc: What happened to Lindsay out
in the world? Was he truly able to escape the W&H's zone of
influence, or did it slowly drive him to revenge? The Lindsay
we got wasn't really any of the Lindsays we got before, and it's
hard to completely correlate with previous incarnations. He probably
developed the cloaking spells long before Angel took over the
place, but he would have seen the change in power as serendipity.
Early Seasons Lindsay was too invested, less flexible than this
new incarnation, whose motives were either mercurial or just not
important and whose plans were not very logical. What would the
season have lost if he had not returned? Was he really necessary
to Angel's epiphany?
Eve: Arc: Eve seems at first to have represented
the suits at the WB - calming, somewhat benign, a stand-in for
the Greater Showbiz Powers that Joss had become much more negative
about over the previous year. She treated the crew with cryptic
indifference, steering without direct interference, an enabler
but not much of an adversary, in bed with more formidable enemies
but not to be feared on her own. As the WB metaphor, though, things
happened and she had to eventually be morphed into her true form...
Hamilton: Arc: This was the True Face of
the Network Suits - still playing at benign, but more obviously
dangerous, more pointed, much more willing to wield power when
forced to and capable of being deadly. Would Hamilton have appeared
if the show had not been canceled? And is his story that of what
the WB can expect to be without ME? Certainly it will be without
much of its creative lifeblood, the thing that we can believe
gave it actual power, if I read the finale metaphor correctly.
Losing Angel drains it of true legitimacy - plus, the whole
vamped-Angel against the Powers-That-Are-Senior-Partners thing
was such a great image...
The Senior Partners: Arc: The behind-the-scenes
manipulators, the Powers-That-Be rather seamlessly transformed
into the Partners. Opaque motives didn't really get any clearer,
and even the definition of an apocalypse seemed to suffer an attack
of legal vagueness. The critical characterization was their love
of power, and the assumption that power could corrupt anyone,
including Angel. But when push came to shove, the worm turned.
The wound it produced may have been small and temporary, but that
was enough to make the worm feel better.
The Black Thorn Circle: Arc: If the Powers
That Be work through agents, it makes sense that the Senior Partners
do the same - we just figured that their agents were Wolfram & Hart.
The reveal that the lawyers are really just keeping the agents
functional makes a certain amount of sense - W&H never really
seemed to be doing that much through the series but working
for clients anyway. It makes sense that the Senior Partners were
keen to push Angel into their organization of agents, they expected
him to turn given enough power, and they must have forced the
issue, which explains why the Circle accepted Angel into the fold
when it seems silly to do so. Sometimes when the Powers say jump,
you don't get the luxury of pointing out their folly, you just
have to fall in line and take your lumps.
So what has, ultimately, happened here? Was the intent to reinvent
the group, to reinvest them in the original purpose, to meld the
two? Did the group fight through the effects of the mind-wipe
and resist the temptations of power to emerge stronger than ever,
or was it a season of floundering about? The more the Life-of-Joss
metaphors are worked into the show, the more sense certain lines
of development make, but was that intent purposeful? I've always
thought that the Buffy seasonal arcs were thinly-disguised
images of Joss' professional journey, and I really believe that
Angel continued that pattern.
Replies:
[> Re: The Mind-Wipe, WhedonWorld, and Angel S5 Character
Arcs -- Jane, 19:55:49 06/29/04 Tue
This is really interesting, Darby. I like the way you have examined
the mind wipe in relationship to the characters' arcs; I agree
that Wesley was most affected by it, and Lorne the least, with
the others somewhere in between. The WB executives as the Senior
Partners - was Angel's desire to kill the dragon really Joss's
sublimated wish to do the same to Jordan Levin? ;)
I agree with a lot of what you say; so many have commented that
Fred and Wesley's relationship came out of nowhere, but to me
there was always some subtle undercurrent of attraction between
them, right from the start. Interesting reading, Darby.
[> [> Thanks (I KNEW I should have looked that name up!)
-- Darby, 05:04:27 06/30/04 Wed
[> [> [> Levin is gone now.. Angel slew the dragon.
-- genivive, 05:55:17 06/30/04 Wed
Joss must be delighted
[> Lorne -- Pony, 09:01:26 06/30/04 Wed
That was really interesting Darby and I loved your take on Hamilton.
I'm wondering though if in light of the finale whether Lorne did
actually have a stronger and more important arc. Unfortunately
it didn't get much screentime but it seems to me that Lorne's
journey from the showbiz-dazzled demon to the only person to question
Angel's morality is a pretty big one. Lines like the one in Underneath
where Lorne when hearing about Gunn says, "We never leave
a man behind. Or I guess that's what we do now," take on
more significance to me now, suggesting that Lorne was the one
marking the moral shifts of the gang. In the end he offers a sort
of sad idealism to contrast against Angel's ruthless efficiency.
[> [> Re: Lorne -- Lunasea, 07:55:56 07/01/04
Thu
As much as they retconned Connor with Jasmine, they did the same
to Lorne. Lorne has tried to stay out of the battle between good
and evil. His arc involves being dragged into that battle and
the effect this has on him. I was surprised to actually see him
fight the Beast in "Apocalypse Nowish." In retrospect,
it makes sense. It was Jasmine that dragged him into the fight
by using him. She even admits she used him in "Shiny Happy
People." Under her thrall, this is a great honor. Afterwards,
his good intentions had been manipulated every bit as much as
Cordy and Angel's were. Lorne tried to help creatures, all creatures.
Angel does his little rant about how Lorne was the only one that
understood things. IMO by being the poster child for Angel's breakdown,
Lorne finally understood.
IMO, Angel didn't tell him to kill Lindsey. If we were to think
this, I believe we would have seen him take Lorne aside at the
end of the scene in Spike's apartment to talk to him without knowing
what they were talking about. It would have taken seconds. Instead,
this is an action that Lorne believes is necessary that Angel
couldn't do. As a hero, Angel couldn't even have ordered that
action. I believe Angel believed what he told Lindsey and did
not lie to him.
There is an incredible arc with Lorne from "The Trial"
to "Not Fade Away." The Jasmine retcon was taken to
amazing places with this character.
[> [> [> Re: Lorne -- Pony, 08:32:46 07/01/04
Thu
LINDSEY
You don't trust me. You don't think a man can change?
LORNE
It's not about what I think. This was Angel's plan.
We don't know what happened after Angel turned to give Lorne his
assignment because there's a cut to Harmony. After we get back
to the apartment Lorne makes his comment that this will be the
last thing he will do for Angel. We don't get any details of what
he's doing.
And Angel ain't exactly the unsullied hero of this piece:
LORNE
Yeah. Say, any other tips on how to be a hero we could share with
the boys and girls at home?
(quotes Buffyworld.com)
[> [> [> [> Re: Lorne -- Lunasea, 06:00:33
07/02/04 Fri
I was trying to agree with you and maybe even give your theory
a bit more legs.
From "Not Fade Away"
ANGEL: Lorne...
LORNE: Uh, I'm not a fighter, Angelwings. I never had the stomach
for it. Looks like I'm your weak link.
ANGEL: I just need you to back up Lindsey.
WESLEY: I still can't believe you brought him in.
ANGEL: He's part of this. It'll be just as dangerous for him as
it will be for everyone else on our team.
Not sure how people are getting from that "Lorne what I really
need you to do is shoot Lindsey."
The plot twist is an integral part of the Buffyverse. That doesn't
mean the twist was Angel ordering the kill. There is a whole other
layer, dealing with Lorne, that gets missed when we assume he
is just acting on Angel's orders because he says "This was
Angel's plan." Angel's plan was very clear, "This isn't
a keep-fightin'- the-good-fight kind of deal. Let's be clear.
I'm talking about killing every... single...member... of the Black
Thorn. We don't walk away from that. "
In order for Angel to have Lorne kill Lindsey, he would have to
believe that he is a real threat and not just a "pathetic
halfwit." Angel has always been rather dismissive of Lindsey.
For him to now decide that he has to come out of the game would
be out of character. It isn't necessarily the double cross that
I am looking at, but how Angel sees Lindsey.
Angel had to kill truth himself. Perhaps that tarnishes him in
some way. Perhaps it is the only was for an existential hero to
become a hero. Unsullied? Doesn't really matter. Not what the
show is about, IMO. HERO is what is important. Taking random horrible
events in a random horrible world and making them mean something,
THAT is what makes Angel a hero.
So taking that to be the theme of this season, turning Angel into
the existential hero, how would this play in Lorne? That is what
I looked at. Hopefully eventually, I will give this character
a bit more time and trace his arc from how he was used in "The
Trials" to what led him to murder Lindsey like that.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Lorne -- ladyhelix, 11:22:08
07/11/04 Sun
I was also unsure if killing Lindsey was Lorne's plan, or Angel's
plan -> UNTIL Angel told Eve that Lindsey was not coming back
for her. How else could Angel be so sure? I know it's not conclusive...
but that's when I was convinced that it was Angel's plan all along.
[> Re: The Mind-Wipe, WhedonWorld, and Angel S5 Character
Arcs -- Lunasea, 08:23:41 07/01/04 Thu
So what has, ultimately, happened here? Was the intent to reinvent
the group, to reinvest them in the original purpose, to meld the
two? Did the group fight through the effects of the mind-wipe
and resist the temptations of power to emerge stronger than ever,
or was it a season of floundering about? The more the Life-of-Joss
metaphors are worked into the show, the more sense certain lines
of development make, but was that intent purposeful? I've always
thought that the Buffy seasonal arcs were thinly-disguised images
of Joss' professional journey, and I really believe that Angel
continued that pattern.
Hope you have fun at the Gathering and find much philosophical
yummies to chew on there.
Back at the beginning of the season, I dissected "Conviction"
from the perspective of Joss commenting on his feelings about
the new directions the show was forced into by network demands.
He even admitted that he was going to draw on his experiences
with television to write this season about corruption.
The mind wipe was an interesting way to go. I've been reluctant
to speak about it because of my own experiences. However, it was
a brilliant way to redeem a character that had become irredeemable.
It ranks up there with the gypsy curse as a wonderful way out
of corner they wrote themselves into.
As for the intent of this season, I would say it was to make Angel
into the existentialist hero. That's what they've been working
up to for so long. They were getting to the point that his epiphanies
had to lead to the big one, namely: "One-shot deal. She put
me on the path, showed me where the real powers are. But I couldn't
see who they were. Then, when Fred died, I wasn't gonna let that
be another random horrible event in another random horrible world.
So I decided to use it, to make her death matter. And it worked.
I'm in. I've seen the faces of evil. I know who the real powers
in the apocalypse are." Truth itself had to die to do this.
The show has been existentialist for so long, it was time for
Angel not just to be on a hero's journey, but to finally become
a hero and get that epiphany needed to solve the existentialist
dilemma. "If there is no great glorious end to all this,
if - nothing we do matters, - then all that matters is what we
do." So close, but that is acting like what we do actually
matters. It nothing matters, than nothing matters. What matters
is what me make matter. Angel took a random occurance in a random
horrible world and made it matter.
The mind wipe put them all in another world, a world that made
no sense to them. They didn't even understand why they were there.
Talk about random. Each of them got to play existential hero and
make sense of that world. Throughout the season we saw each of
them do this in their own way. They lost character development
in order to grow beyond what informed them. Then when their memories
were restored, it wasn't about growing from where they came prior
to it, but making sense of the wipe itself. The wipe became another
event in their random lives.
What a wonderful contradiction to the previous season where Jasmine
had been using them as pawns and their lives were not random.
The memory wipe, in essence, put the universe right. It removed
Jasmine's scheme and made things random again. The mind wipe keeps
the Buffyverse an angry athiest existential universe. Feigenbaum
wins.
[> Fred and the Mindwipe -- Roy, 12:03:27 07/05/04
Mon
I think I have a problem regarding your theory on Fred's relationship
with Gunn and Wes. You seemed to think that Fred would have preferred
the S4 Wes to the S3. I disagree. I think that Fred turned to
Wes in S4 because she still believed that he was the "knight-in-shinning
armor - something that Gunn failed to become in Fred's eyes after
"Supersymmestry". Check out what Angeleus said to her
before he revealed the Wes/Lilah affair. He had literally accused
Fred of viewing Wes as some kind of knight. She didn't know the
real Wes anymore than she did the real Gunn. If anything, I'd
say that Fred had a tendency to turn to Wes as rebound when her
earlier relationships failed her. She probably would have stopped
doing that after her last discussion with Wes about Lilah. But
the mindwipe took away that discussion and she went back to the
same habit - using Wes as back-up.
[> Preserving because its.all.about.connor!!!! -- Masq,
10:54:26 07/08/04 Thu
what happened to the ninja
robots? -- James
Michael, 12:22:58 06/30/04 Wed
does anyone know what happened to the ninja robots from Angel
S5 and who sent them? i never could figure it out...
Replies:
[> Re: what happened to the ninja robots? -- David,
13:02:52 06/30/04 Wed
The robots that attacked Angel were killed but they are probably
still out there somewhere. I'm not sure who created them but i
read somewhere on a board that it was the Circle of the Black
Thorn because the robots had their symbol but i'm not sure if
it's true.
It can make sense since the circle does have incredible connections
according to Lindsay so they could get Watcher Council information
and they probably wanted Angel under control too.
I had a thought that it could be the slayers since they don't
trust Angel anymore and they defently had watcher info and maybe
Buffy wanted to have him back fighting for good but now i can't
imagine Buffy robbing people of their free will
Drum roll please... Buffy
Shakespeare -- fresne, 18:55:39 06/30/04 Wed
Finally, and after much, much, much talking about it, I am finally
done with the Tragical
Comedy of Buffy the Slayer of Vampyres - i.e., Buffy Shakespeare.
The initial concept was to do something a bit like
Buffy Pride
and Prejudice
Take a play, change the characters, but you know, umm..I blame
Masq really, she said, do something more fictional, like,
Sometimes called
Dante and Virgil's wild and Wacky, yet Efficacious, adventures
in the Lands Buffalonious, Angelic, and Britannic, with some small
appearances by familiar characters: a Comedy in 3 parts (three
parts each, sortof), - I love long names don't you - alas,
I'm a hopeless project person.
I got it into my head to do a seven play re-telling the plot of
the series all using lines from Shakespeare. A year later, I had
forty pages of notes and a lot holes. Plus, it was boring me.
So, I compressed it all into one humun-goid miniseries of story.
Since I've reached the critical, I can edit this story pieced
together from much Shakespeare and some other writers no more.
And so, enjoy
Replies:
[> Oh, this is just delicious! -- Jane, 20:02:22
06/30/04 Wed
I just glanced through it; don't have the time to give it the
attention this obviously deserves right now.(getting ready for
the Meet,and for work tomorrow) I will print this all out tomorrow
so I can take it with me to Chicago. It will entertain me on the
plane for sure. Wish I could get the bobbleheads to work on paper!
Splendidly done. I think Jane Austin, Wm.Shakespeare, and Joss
Whedon would appreciate this work...
[> Dude, this will take a while to read.... -- Rochefort,
21:39:17 06/30/04 Wed
But it looks freakin hilarious! The Xander of Sunnydale lines
are just brilliant. Nice choice giving him Bottom's words.
[> Applause, applause -- Ann, 04:14:06 07/01/04 Thu
And I am only up to Act I, Scene I. Wow Fresne.
[> wow! just 1 comment for now -- anom, 08:55:46
07/01/04 Thu
Wish I hadn't started reading this opus after midnight--I couldn't
stop! Amazing job, fresne. I'll just say this for now; more later,
I hope (or in person at the Gathering!).
When I read this in Act I, Scene iv:
"There is a tide in the affairs of men,
Which, taken at the flood, leads on to fortune;
Omitted, all the voyage of their life
Is bound in shallows and in miseries."
at first glance I thought that last word was "miniseries"!
This was only reinforced by the reference to a VCR a few lines
later.... Hmm, read that way, it could refer to the actors' careers
if they don't take advantage of the opportunities afforded by
the "tide" of stardom in these (full-length) series.
That's what you meant, right? @>)
And it was really strange hearing that speech in my head in the
Mayor's voice.
[> Applause, applause, and much helpless laughter --
Vickie, 13:16:40 07/01/04 Thu
I was fine, enjoying the great work but holding it together, until
Angel's entrance!!! Now I can hardly breath.
Inconceivable!
Wouldn't A Hellgod out rank
a Demongod? -- megaslayer, 20:00:03 06/30/04 Wed
Glory actually ruled a Hell dimension and was very powerful. The
reason I think Glory is just a little bit higher because in her
true form is much more powerful. Illyria is a Old one/demongod
and possesses great and godlike powers.
Replies:
[> Re: Wouldn't A Hellgod out rank a Demongod? -- Majin
Gojira, 21:27:04 06/30/04 Wed
Demon Gods are Different from Old Ones.
Demon God = Sobek, Osiris, Ra
Old Ones = Cthulhu, Illyria, Yig, Hatsur
It's pretty evident that Old Ones are the cream of the Supernatural
Crop. Even just going by the show, Hellgods are somewhere between
Demon-God and Old One--but Old Ones are the top.
[> [> Actually, that's hard to say -- Finn Mac Cool,
22:25:07 06/30/04 Wed
We've never seen Old Ones or Hell Gods in a non-diluted form (unless
the Mayor and the Hellmouth Beast fit the Old One category, which
is open to interpretation). On the one hand, I'd say Glory was
physically stronger than Illyria, harder to hurt (until Ben began
bleeding into her, it seemed as though Glory never actually felt
pain), and definitely faster. On the other hand, Illyria could
alter the flow of time (at least to the point of slowing it down)
and travel between dimensions, which Glory could clearly not do.
However, we do know the undiluted Hellgods were able to banish
Glory to another dimension, so they can move between worlds in
their natural form. Basically, without seeing either being without
being confined to a less powerful body, we can't really make a
judgement, as the degrees to which their host bodies weaken them
can easily vary.
[> [> [> I'll get back to you on that... -- Majin
Gojira, 22:28:29 06/30/04 Wed
When the Quantified Buffy Project is Finished
My little list is more "how they symbolically rank in my
head" than anything else.
Besides, IA IA CTHULHU FHTAGN!
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