June 2004 posts
SMG and AH -- ghady,
04:40:27 06/14/04 Mon
Ok, what's the deal with those two? Do they hate each other or
what? Were they or were they not at each others' weddings?? It
doesn't LOOK like they don't get along--there's just TOO much
chemistry between them on the show (Plus, take Charmed as an example,
where a bitter relationship between two stars led to the firing/quitting
of one.) So? What it is? And how's Sarah's relationship w/ the
other cast members?
One final thing: why the HELL was Emma Caulfield so despondent
by S7 of Buffy? Why does she keep on saying that she HATED it
towards the end?
Replies:
[> Re: SMG and AH -- Cactus Watcher, 07:36:07 06/14/04
Mon
SMG particularly after she started dating Freddie isolated herself
from the rest of the cast, stopped seeing the rest of the socilaly,
did not go to Joss' get-togethers, etc. At some point SMG drifted
away from the others and they pretty much ceased to be friends.
I think she's just a very private person and as there often are
the can be tensions between the star and the rest of the cast
over what they can demand on the set. But, there is no indication
that anyone wasn't speaking to everyone else. AH was unhappy that
SMG did not tell the other actors personally she was through with
playing Buffy, but she told Joss early on in season seven, and
as boss, it really was his duty to tell the others sooner than
he did.
Emma Caulfield was having serious problems negotiating a contract
with 20th Century Fox, and decided she would not work for them
any more. It had nothing to do with her direct relationship with
Mutant Enemy or the Buffy show.
[> [> Re: SMG and AH -- BrianWilly, 14:03:20 06/14/04
Mon
It kinda bugs me that so much disdain from the cast and the fans
was put on Sarah for not informing everyone that the show was
ending. Okay, I knew that the 7th season was going to be
the last a whole year in advance, through an interview
Joss did. I don't have the interview handy with me and I'm not
sure if there was subsequent discussion concerning the fate of
the show, but to me that whole derisive "We should have told
earlier that we were gonna be out of jobs!" attitude, while
understandable, was hardly valid. Really, did anyone have any
doubts that Buffy was ending with season 7? I love Sarah
and Aly and Nicky and Tony and every other soul involved with
this show, but read between the lines already.
[> [> [> Re: SMG and AH -- Mike, 20:43:24 06/14/04
Mon
I take it that the recent declarations about the driftiness or
disdain of the Buffy gang is to confirm that this is totally true
and therefore depressing. I feel the exact same way about the
year in advance notice about Buffy's inevitable finish. Really
Joss, the boss, should have told them in advance about Buffy coming
to an end. Then again, it could have went without saying that
the series was ending after its 7th yr. Maybe there's something
more simple that should be reminded about the driftiness or disdain.
It would be easy to jump straight into worries about ending careers
and creative differences, but it
may really enough to understand what happened to the
Buffy gang.
If you think about, and I sure do if I put myself in any of the
Buffy cast members' place, is that a hit TV series is hard to
top for your career. In other words, the end of an era and unfortunately
for some the start of a career's end.
I hate to say it but it appears the cast (minus SMG b/c she's
like an A-list celebrity at this point) don't have
much places to turn to. Think of hit shows like Melrose Place
or Thirtysomething and what happens to much of the cast members
once they end. For instance, Thomas Calabero or Kelly Rutherford
(MP) haven't been seen or noticed anywhere afterwards. Ken Olin
or Melanie Mayron (T)
haven't either. Sometimes, hit TV shows can be the kiss
of death for long-term acting success.
Now for the real tough bit here, the actual Buffy members.
It does seem to make sense that SMG would begin distancing from
the rest of the gang once her and Freddie were top news. Aside
from being the main star, SMG has been suceeding more or less
in her projects outside Buffy. SMG continues to have clout in
Hollywood, can't say the same for the others except for AH and
maybe MT (more on them in a bit). NB recently fell into rehab
for god knows what. Does he have anything post-Buffy? Is he succeeding
outside Buffy? ASH? EC? And someone mentioned that Marc Blucas
is successful out of Buffy's light, but in what? SMG, sure she's
a private person. However that's a damn shame that she doesn't
even keep in touch with her former cast
members anymore.
Also sucks that EC felt hateful about Buffy as her contract neared
its end. Then again who knows, creative difference?
This lends a bit of credibility to the rough edges that probably
emerged within the Buffy cast. That whole thing b/w
SMG and AH is rather discouraging. Just one more thing evident
about how things changed b/w 1997 and 2003. Not like the Friends
cast who to this day are really good friends. Go figure.
AH, IMHO the more interesting and prettiest star of Buffy,
has had some success with the American Pie trilogy yet Willow
and Michelle are all she's known for right now. Certainly people
know AH has acted and been in stuff since 87. But to most of the
public eye, her emergence came once Buffy hit our living rooms.
She's currently doing theater,
or recently has. Heard about this TV deal she's got, but will
that be successful. Will she get different types of film roles?
MT has recently done Eurotrip and a Trapt video. the difference
with her and AH can be simply set about ten years apart. MT has
plenty of time to try to shine elsewhere. I mention that b/c of
the unfortunate reality about Hollywood's frequent focus on age.
Certain thirtysomethings defy the odds, sure helps when you're
a mega star like Jennifer Aniston. Again, I really find AH
interesting but I can't be naive about Hollywood's
majority eye. Who knows what will happen to AH, MT, and
the rest of the former Buffy cast.
There's a few things that we can hope will happen. Certainly no
Buffy reunion, follow in Friends' lead about
not tarnishing what's fresh now ten years later. That Hollywood
can offer enough to the entire former cast now and soon, unless
any one of them could care less about acting anymore. That none
of them falls into drug-addled
paths to death and destruction. No nude posing for magazines since
it's a make or break situation. Charisma Carpenter did it, still
don't know yet if that'll build or destroy her career. I don't
see the risk being worth it for the likes of AH and MT to name
a few.
And another thing, this issue now makes me think about the Angel
cast and if they are really friends, have ended AtS in good terms,
if there is or was any driftiness or disdain
through those five yrs. As for Buffy, may absence make the hearts
grow fonder and may they all succeed in their dreams.
[> [> [> [> Re: SMG and AH -- Riz, 04:04:07
06/15/04 Tue
"However that's a damn shame that she doesn't even keep in
touch with her former cast
members anymore."
I don't think that's true, to be fair. SMG is definitely in contact/friends
with MT (although I'm sure they're both busy so don't get to see
each other all that much). I read somewhere once that Freddie
Prinze was also close to her and was teaching her to drive, etc.
I also remember Nicky Brendon saying he's still good friends with
her and although they don't get to see each other much any more,
they still send a lot of (text) messages to each other. Antony
Head was at the Scooby Doo 2 premier and him and SMG were coudling,
laughing with each other, etc. I also saw him say once that SMG
is a like an older sister to his daughters and that she always
looks after them when they're on set. James Marsters has said
that the only time SMG used 'star power' on set was to help other
people out i.e. getting seats for extras and things like that.
It does seem that Sarah and Aly have drifted apart but that quite
often happens between friends, it doesn't mean there was anything
horrible between them. I remember in my last year at school I
started hanging around with a new set of people because I grew
apart from my old friends, even though we still got on well with
each other.
I know none of us will ever know the truth, but from what I can
tell SMG is unfairly treated as a diva who acted above everybody
else.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: SMG and AH -- ghady,
04:55:08 06/15/04 Tue
"I read somewhere once that Freddie Prinze was also close
to her and was teaching her to drive."--> I think you
mean someone else, since Freddie is obviously not part of the
Buffy team.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: SMG and AH -- Riz,
06:55:25 06/15/04 Tue
Nah, I didn't. There seems to be the idea the FPj caused her to
be completely seperated from everybody else. Although I do think
this is true to an extent, it's clearly not completely the case
if he gets on well with MT.
they're probably all so busy that none of them get to see each
other much. I never see anybody discussing whether Aly Hannigan
still sees Nicky Brendon reguarly or any other combination of
cast/crew. SMG is held to an unfair standard, IMO. It's almost
as if people WANT her to be a diva.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: SMG and AH -
Does Any of This Really Matter? -- Can I Be Anne?, 07:45:04
06/17/04 Thu
I agree with you, SMG is often called a "Bitch" and
a "Diva", for no other reason than former fans or "shippers"
didn't like the way a certain storyline panned out on Buffy.
They decided they hated Buffy and that it was SMG's fault that
Buffy turned so dark in S6! It is so ludicrous as to be mad!
From everything I have heard in "legitimate" publications,
and from fans who actually "met" Sarah, she is NOTHING
but nice and kind and considerate. Not to mention the ultimate
professional. Anyone who complains about Sarah being a "diva"
or whatnot, does not know her, they are making up stories they
want to be true. Sarah IS a bone fide movie star and celebrity
as well. Perhaps people resent her for her popularity outside
of Buffy? But, Sarah was a star BEFORE Buffy, in the world of
Daytime TV, she's been in tons of commercials since a child, and
is the only actress from Buffy who has a shot of actually having
a long-term career AFTER Buffy.
Look, everyone has bad days from time to time, especially working
so closely with people day in and day out for over 7 years. Things
people say and do may be taken out of context and blown out of
proportion, through rumor and innuendo. I personally don't believe
any of the "diva" crap.
AND....who really cares if sometimes Sarah is "bitchy"
Her work, as far as I am concerned NEVER showed her personal feelings
about the show - SMG, as Buffy, NEVER let me down. She was always
Right On in her portrayal of The Slayer. What more do people want?
She did her frickin job! If she chooses to let the verse go after
her seven years, well then it is her choice, and if you are a
true fan of SMG's, you should just wish her well.
Ally, and the rest of the cast can go ahead and do cartoon voices,
but Sarah has decided to move on. She should not be crucified
for that choice.
I say, screw the nay-sayers and please "get a life".
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: SMG and
AH - Does Any of This Really Matter? -- Gyrus, 09:36:18
06/17/04 Thu
SMG, as Buffy, NEVER let me down. She was always Right On in
her portrayal of The Slayer. What more do people want? She did
her frickin job! If she chooses to let the verse go after her
seven years, well then it is her choice, and if you are a true
fan of SMG's, you should just wish her well.
Seven years is a long time for an actor on an hour-long drama;
eventually, they all want a break from the brutal schedule that
TV acting involves. (It's interesting to note that most of the
hour-long dramas that have lasted longer than 7 years have had
complete or nearly-complete changes of cast over the years --
LAW & ORDER, NYPD BLUE, and ER, for example.)
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: SMG and
AH - Does Any of This Really Matter? -- LeeAnn, 10:49:42
06/18/04 Fri
I agree with you, SMG is often called a "Bitch" and
a "Diva", for no other reason than former fans or "shippers"
didn't like the way a certain storyline panned out on Buffy.
I did some searches trying to find out why she is described as
"bitch" and "diva." I was looking for the
dirt but I didn't really find anything that justified the epithets.
I finally came to the conclusion that a lot of the words are from
the press. SMG is generally inaccessible to the press unless she
is doing promotions required by contract. I think that is the
main source of the "cold" and "bitch" and
"diva" rumors. And I'm not a fan of her work but I couldn't
find any stories online that justified the names. Not even Jeff
Pruitt's firing, which in retrospect, seems justified considering
he was talking out of school about her lack of physical skills
and thus hurting the character and the actress.
[> [> [> [> [> You have to remember something
here, SMG and AH..... -- Briar Rose, 15:17:34 06/15/04
Tue
are both pretty much newly-weds and I doubt they are spending
much time with anyone about now. Maybe there will be more interest
in hanging out now that both are working less and their husbands
are as well.
But I will say that SMG has always had a reputation for being
"difficult" and also pretty quick to feel jealousy and
such when her star is outshined. But she's also a very good business
woman, and if it's in her best interests I'm sure that SMG will
be cooking dinner for AH pretty quick.
You can jump on me all you want, but I know too many former BtVS/Angel
extras to discount all of the stories when I have also heard them
from the set of Scooby 1 and 2.
As for AH, I don't know if she'd rush back to BtVS/AtS without
a major character change for Willow. And that's all I'm going
to say about that.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: You have to remember
something here, SMG and AH..... -- Can I Be Anne?, 12:19:16
06/17/04 Thu
Everyone hears different things. I choose to believe in the "good"
not the bad. And as I said, after all is said and done, I don't
give a "fig's ass" if SMG is a bitch or a diva or Mother
Theresa - she's a good actress and I enjoy her talents. And she's
pretty.
So there.
:-)
As for AH and Willow - she IS doing the cartoon voice over. I
guess that is a big enough change for her.
[> [> [> [> Re: SMG and AH -- Sofdog, 19:52:42
06/16/04 Wed
"Think of hit shows like Melrose Place or Thirtysomething
and what happens to much of the cast members once they end. For
instance, Thomas Calabero or Kelly Rutherford (MP) haven't been
seen or noticed anywhere afterwards. Ken Olin or Melanie Mayron
(T)
haven't either. Sometimes, hit TV shows can be the kiss
of death for long-term acting success."
Actually Ken Olin frequently produces television shows. Acting
is only one aspect of an entertainment career and most people
in that business seem to have more than one interest or only use
acting as a stepping stone. It is hardly a sign of a dashed career
that we no longer see someone on screen. Sometimes people want
to do other things with their lives.
"Just one more thing evident about how things changed b/w
1997 and 2003. Not like the Friends cast who to this day are really
good friends. Go figure."
Well, "Friends" was a bird of different feather. That
wasn't a star vehicle. The six cast members were on equal footing.
Those actors collaborated after their first season hit to force
NBC to renegotiate all of their contracts for $1 million per episode.
It was a whole different dynamic from "Buffy."
It's hardly outrageous for former coworkers to drift apart. They
no longer have a reason to be together. If the show was the foundation
of their relationship, or their friendships have changed, that
is life. If someone asked me why I don't keep in touch with my
old coworkers, I'd say 'cause we have lives and they're not on
the same path. Doesn't mean there's no good feeling. But so what
if there isn't?
As for Emma Caulfield being at odds with Fox, well tons of people
leave their jobs when they can't get the pay/benefits they think
they deserve. Nothing wrong with that. And nothing wrong with
being bitter about it.
The success question can't be evaluated by anyone but the actor.
If Marc Blucas defines success as doing character bits in movies,
he's succeeding. If Charisma Carpenter defines it as launching
a career as a sex symbol while living off her Buffy/Angel residuals,
she's succeeding. If Alyson would rather get her theater training
down... You get the point. If someone told me, 'Sof, you're not
doing what you used to do. You're failure,' I'd say 'I'm not who
I used to be.'
[> [> [> [> [> Re: SMG and AH -- Gyrus,
07:30:23 06/17/04 Thu
It's hardly outrageous for former coworkers to drift apart.
They no longer have a reason to be together. If the show was the
foundation of their relationship, or their friendships have changed,
that is life.
We should also remember that when actors are working, they work
very long hours that leave them little time for any social activities
outside of work (despite all the talk about "Hollywood parties").
For example, when BTVS was filming, a 12-hour day was considered
pretty short. Therefore, anybody who has moved on to another project
doesn't have time to hang around with people from previous projects,
however friendly they may be. (This may explain why friends and
lovers in Hollywood often make an effort to work together a lot.)
[> [> [> [> Re: SMG and AH -- LeeAnn, 10:39:41
06/18/04 Fri
The difference with her[MT] and AH can be simply set about
ten years apart.
I think the main difference is management. I've been surprised
at how MT has been getting work and been in the public eye since
the end of BtVS. Considering how much I disliked her portrayal
of Dawn and her limited on-screen likablity I find that surprising.
I think she must have great management. Her skills and attractiveness
are not great enough to explain it any other way. People with
much more talent, beauty and likabily are not getting the work
she is. Starting with AH and EC and CC. Whoever her manager is
he/she really knows how Hollywood works. Just putting her in a
real or pretend date with someone who won an award at the MTV
awards is important exposure (and an old Hollywood tradition).
At least the female regulars from the Buffyverse have been getting
some work. The male actors, not so much.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: AH, MT, SMG, CC: Differences,
management, status -- Mike, 15:12:12 06/18/04 Fri
Hey LeeAnn you mentioned a vital asset in Hollywood that I missed
out on when describing differences about the Buffy cast members;
management plays certain significance in an actor's continuous
career. Well in terms of being noticed, winning roles and the
like. MT aside from SMG has seemed more prolific so far in 2004.
There are always tricks of the trade that managers, agents, whatever,
know to use to keep an actor's 15 minutes lasting longer. MT might
fit as an example. Then again, she's only 18 or 20 I think. And
well Hollywood may be looking at MT as a fresh face where
SMG and AH are past that prime (from Hollywood perspective). Hollywood
never gets tired of "new faces".
You're probably right about the females from the Buffyverse at
least finding more work than the males
b/c I haven't heard or seen any promise from the males
recently. Well other than the voiceover stuff. Unless,
they're laying low or doing theater, I'm still wondering why the
males seem to be shafted in post-Buffyverse.
My first message about this matter b/w SMG and the
others sprung from the heels of possibility that the
supporting cast would fade away much before SMG's prime
ends. I would be pissed off too about a show where I played a
supporting role coming to an end after 7 yrs and still having
not made a name for myself outside of that show. Sure, success
can be solely defined by you the actor, yrself. If bit parts in
movies is success to an actor,
then ok. If NB feels he's still successful after Buffy. Cool!
Otherwise, it would have to hurt in some way that
the prime of your acting career comes to an end. Knowing
that it's inevitable, it nevertheless must suck.
And FYI, I think SMG is a nice, strong, talented actress.
Not this diva crap that people have been saying about her.
I just also think SMG got a lot of better breaks than the rest
of the Buffyverse. What if they're all equally talented like her
yet haven't gotten involved in the right projects or made their
way to the right people like SMG has.
It's probably also bias that some people may have for saying
things about SMG's success vs. other Buffyverse members.
Some fans may like NB, JM, or EC better than SMG, and it would
be cool if they can reach the same status as SMG.
I myself am more an AH and CC fan than SMG. So that's from my
end, wishful thinking. And personally I hope CC starts getting
better stuff to do, not this Playboy issue thing coming out.
The Angel cast is what I'm hoping much more to achieve prolific
acting success outside of Angel. Well, DB is now blond, good thing
he's working and could probably achieve the same status as SMG.
One for the underdogs. The Angel cast, I feel, are the true underdogs
in this matter of SMG and others in the Whedonverse. I'm a fan
of true underdogs
and by gosh want the rest of this decade in Hollywood to be filled
with their faces.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: AH, MT, SMG, CC: Differences,
management, status -- cyp, 15:53:03 06/19/04 Sat
SMG gets good gigs because she's known as a teenage-icon and the
producers assume she can bring some viewers,her talent doesn't
have anything to do with it.And how much time will she be an asset?
You're forgotten pretty quickly in this job.The competition is
fierce,new faces appear(and disappear) all the time and the fame
coming with a TV-show (particularly a cult-show with a small audience
and a bunch of fans scattered all around the world)doesn't last
long.Luckily they won't be type-cast(except may be SMG)
We will see them(our actors) in a show here and there,some will
find a regular job in a serie or try a movie-carreer,but some
of them(most of them,probably)will fade in the background.
The good recipe for a successful career:
A lot of exposure,good contacts,a pinch of talent,a good agent,good
looks (and hot!it's a must.Hey,go CC!) ...and a very very big
dose of luck!
Numfar do the dance of joy!!
Levin out! -- znachki, 14:54:58 06/14/04 Mon
Had to de-lurk for this
[url]http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/thr/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000531310[/url]
Replies:
[> About a year too late! -- Vegeta, 07:47:55 06/15/04
Tue
I still do not understand why Angel was cancelled. Especially
when it is obvious that they have absolutely nothing to replace
it with. Those who run the WB are fools and will forever lose
my veiwership.
VEGETA
[> Good riddance -- skpe, 18:16:08 06/15/04 Tue
Ghost of the Robot disbands
-- Ann, 20:31:46 06/14/04 Mon
http://www.jamesmarsters.com/home.html
Replies:
[> Re: How long did the band exist? -- Mike, 20:50:03
06/14/04 Mon
New Super-Evil reviews! --
HonorH, 22:44:49 06/14/04 Mon
For anyone who's interested, Honorificus has just posted new Super-Evil
reviews of "Underneath" and "Origin" at my livejournal.
Masq, the "Origin" one is for you!
Replies:
[> Well, you can tell I read it, too, can't you? --
Masq, 12:51:41 06/16/04 Wed
I am an LJ comment whore, as I recently discovered after everyone
started posting the results of the "Who Comments Here"
meme....
And of course, anything Connorific makes the comment whore on
steroids!
The PTBs -- Kana, 03:54:26
06/15/04 Tue
I was wondering, how much power do the, err, Powers have? I just
get this feeling that there are metaphysical laws that govern
the Buffyverse that even the PTBs cannot break, or maybe the Powers
created their own rules about invervention. In any case Jasmine
had to go through all the trouble of arranging a miracle pregnancy
to descend to the lower plain, so this is clearly finding a loophole
to an otherwise unbreakable rule. I mean is she wanted to descend,
why didn't she just will it so? If a Power That err Is(?) broke
a rule outright would that upset the balance of the universe causing
everything to decend into chaos? And if these rules exist outside
the powers control, is there a Buffyverse God who created those
rules.
Another thing that was bothering me was the fact Jasmine appeared
in human form in both our reality and that of the bug creature's
world. Shouldn't she have taken bug form? Or is this indicative
of the fact the PTBs, although formless, have closer connection
to human beings. If God created us in his image perhaps he did
the same with the Powers.
By the way, all this talk about theology is completely theoretical
in terms of the Buffyverse. I state this as a firm believer in
agnosticism.
Replies:
[> Re: The PTBs -- David, 09:14:12 06/15/04 Tue
I think that there are rules that even the PTB can't breeak but
i think it might be the laws of physics 'cause didn't Willow say
that magic doesn't ignore physics only uses it to its advantage.
Also i don't think that in the Buffyverse, there is one all powerful
god, but i do think there are things more powerful that the PTB
like maybe the FE or First Good?
I think that the Jasmine only looked human on this world because
her 'parents' were human and they created a human body for her
to pour herself into. Also on the bug world, didn't the statue
have a bug body or something so i think she did look like them
just with a human or human-like head.
If you saw her in her natural form, i think she would look a lot
different like maybe that tentacled thing that she turned into
to feed
[> Re: The PTBs -- steve-dave, 06:40:17 06/16/04
Wed
thats deep
[> Re: The PTBs -- BrianWilly, 20:32:12 06/16/04
Wed
The Powers have a lot of...er, power, but from what I've gathered
from watching the show, their main big limitation is that they
can't interfere with free will.
Well, they can of course if they wanted to. But they don't
want to.
Angel himself explained why, in Peace Out..."Our fate has
to be our own, or we're nothing." Yeah, the Powers That Be
probably have the power to destroy every evil in the world and
make the world a living paradise...but what would be the point?
We wouldn't have earned it, or deserved it. In the way of the
Buffyverse, humanity has to choose paradise and goodness for itself.
If the Powers That Be went around directly making good
things happen, that diminishes the value of human goodness. What
would the meaning of life be if some uberdeity automatically took
care of every single problem for us? How are we good people if
there was no alternative to being good, if we had no choice but
to be good?
Jasmine, who was a self-proclaimed "Power That Was,"
didn't like that limitation. She probably really did love everyone
and the world...she saw the Powers' refusal to help humans directly
as indifference. So she set out the force everyone to be
good, free will be damned...which is of course in itself actually
evil. She probably had the power to just descend if she wanted
to, yes...but then the other Powers would stop her. So she had
to take the long way, manipulating events and aligning things
just right so that when she finally descended, the other Powers
would be too late to do anything without interfering with free
will themselves.
See, that's what the Powers can do: manipulate events.
They can't force anyone to do anything they don't want to, but
they can manipulate events to the point where someone has the
choice. They sent Whistler to help out Angel once, to give him
the choice of either continuing with his rat-eating or to actually
do something good. Then they sent visions to Doyle and Cordelia
respectively; after all, it's not technically interfering with
free will if you show someone the things they should do.
They the gang with the means, and ultimately the gang themselves
have to fulfill the ends. This way they can affect the way of
the world for the better without interfering with free will. It's
a much slower process, but it's the best they can do.
Need help -- David, 09:57:17
06/15/04 Tue
I was thinking of writing my first fic but i want to set it after
Not Fade away and want to put it in Wolfram and Hart's perspective.
But i want to know what people think the senior partners are so
i can include it in my fic, thanks
Replies:
[> Re: Need help -- Ames, 11:25:52 06/15/04 Tue
Nobody knows anything at all about the Senior Partners, so feel
free to assume anything you want.
They never appeared or intervened directly at any time during
the series, except for a single occasion in Season 2 where one
was supposed to manifest itself for a brief visit to W&H LA in
a borrowed demon form, but was killed immediately after it appeared
by Darla.
Other than that we only ever saw intermediaries, who said very
little and could have been lying or misleading or even misled
themselves about anything to do with the Senior Partners. We don't
even know for sure if the Senior Partners and the Wolf, Ram and
Hart are synonymous.
People generally assume that they are evil, powerful, old, and
span multiple dimensions - but that's all speculation based on
indirect evidence and hearsay.
[> [> Re: Need help -- DorianQ, 22:00:04 06/15/04
Tue
Lilah mentioned directly consulting one (Mr. Suvarta) when she
beheaded Linwood and took over his division in Deep Down. That's
all I can remember. Hope it helps and good luck!
What is the hellmouth demon?
-- Kana, 02:09:20 06/16/04 Wed
Is the hellmouth demon a pure demon like Olvikan or something
else?
Replies:
[> Re: What is the hellmouth demon? -- Steve-Dave, 06:41:18
06/16/04 Wed
Like Something Else
[> [> Re: What is the hellmouth demon? -- BrianWilly,
19:56:09 06/16/04 Wed
I agree that the HM demon isn't Olvikan, but I do think that it's
probably a pure demon. The Master was trying to bring back the
Old Ones -- the pure demons that were banished -- so it's pretty
safe to assume that the HM demon was one of them, since opening
the Hellmouth was the Master's big goal.
Now, Anya said that "none of you have ever seen a [pure]
demon before," but she didn't know that they had ever fought
this Hellmouth demon.
[> [> [> Re: What is the hellmouth demon? -- Kana,
07:56:49 06/18/04 Fri
Thanks. By the way'm aware that the HM demon is not Olvikan, i
was merely using it as an example of what a pure demon is.
Happy belated birthday to
the ATPo board! -- Masquerade, 09:47:39 06/16/04 Wed
June 14th, 2000: the day the board was born!
4 years old Monday!
Just wanted to say how much I appreciate all you guys and the
wonderful community we have here!
*smooches*
*wipes tear*
Replies:
[> And it doesn't look at day over 3 and 3/4 -- CW,
10:07:20 06/16/04 Wed
Thanks for starting it all, Masq!
[> [> Re: And it doesn't look at day over 3 and 3/4
-- Masq, 12:44:03 06/16/04 Wed
There are many actions in life I regret, but starting the board
isn't one of them! ; )
[> Long may it wave! -- OnM, 10:17:19 06/16/04 Wed
(Waves to Masq)
[Elvis] Thank yuh, thank yuh very much! [/Elvis]
:-)
[> [> ~ waves back ~ -- Masq, 12:45:10 06/16/04
Wed
[> And many smooches to you Masq for raising such a fine
board! -- Pony, 10:39:48 06/16/04 Wed
[> [> Sometimes it needed cookies, sometimes spankings!
-- Masq, 12:47:01 06/16/04 Wed
[> Re: Happy belated birthday to the ATPo board! --
Ann, 11:47:48 06/16/04 Wed
Why do friends suddenly appear,
Every time you are near?
Just like me, they long to...
Post to you......
Why do posters respond,
Every time you come by?
Just like me, they long to...
Post to you....
On the day that ATPO was born posters got together,
And decided to create a dream come true,
So we examined metaphor on this site
often detailing philosophy in what we might write...
That is why, all the boys [or: girls] in town,
Learn from you, so profound,
Just like me, they long to...
Post to you.......
On the day that ATPO was born 'cause Whedon et al got together,
And decided to give us all a dream come true,
So for four years now Masq came through
And offered us series that we could review...
Buffy and Angel, and all the vampires in town,
Big Bads, all around,
Just like me, they long to...
Learn from you.........
Just like me, they long to...
Post to you...
Happy birthday ATPO. Thank you Masq for this most wondrous space
to ponder the goodness from Whedon et al. You took a beautiful
gift and made it even better! Thank you and here is to another
many years! Cheers!
[> [> OK, that was *very cool* Ann -- Masq (now with
the Carpenters stuck in her brain), 12:48:43 06/16/04 Wed
[> Re: Happy belated birthday to the ATPo board! --
StarryNightShade, 12:20:05 06/16/04 Wed
Masquerade,
My heartfelt thanks at having created your labour of love and
passion for all of us to share.
I've only known about this web-site for about 4 weeks; and I've
benefited immensely. My personal thanks for that.
SNS
[> [> Thanks for joining us! -- Masq, 12:49:46
06/16/04 Wed
Belatedly, but...
Wow, did you show up *after* the Angel finale??
[> [> [> Re: Thanks for joining us! -- SNS, 13:10:39
06/16/04 Wed
Pretty much since the Finale.
I'd been overseas (from Canada) for 9 years in an area where I
didn't get English language Buffy or Angel. In fact I didn't watch
much TV during that time at all.
I've returned to Canada in September and bumped into (synchronicity
?) Angel on 3 occasions before I decided to buy the Angel Season
One DVD set at the beginning of April. Well needless to say I
keep having to buy new pairs of socks because old ones keep getting
blown away. I've obsessively purchases all available DVD sets
and i have been through them all except Btvs Season 6 (half way
through that).
Well anytime you get that obsessive about something you'd better
find out why....so I did watch the last three episodes of Angel.
Regretably to get answers to some of my questions I had to delve
into a little spoilage...but I hope to keep that to a minimum.
The only problem is having to wait for Ats 4/5 and Btvs 7....darn.
The other regret is that I don't always feel it's right to post
a comment as I may not have seen key episodes.
As you see.....it's a long story....yeah right,....bought a bunch
of DVDs, got square eyeballs, watched a couple of episodes and
found the board....okay, maybe not so long.
SNS
[> Hey! That's the day Nino was born too! (20 this year!)
-- Nino :), 13:55:28 06/16/04 Wed
[> [> Re: Here's to Chocolate, Canadians, Cats, and Conversation
-- Brian, 19:06:59 06/16/04 Wed
Long may the board prosper!
[> [> [> Re: Here's to Chocolate, Canadians, Cats,
and Conversation -- Brian, 19:08:14 06/16/04 Wed
Long may the Board prosper!
[> [> happy birthday to you too, nino! -- anom, 19:35:54
06/16/04 Wed
[> Happy is the day ATPo was born! -- Jane, 18:26:11
06/16/04 Wed
Singing Ann's birthday song now, baking a virtual birthday cake
for all...slices of Angelfood cake all around!
Masq, this board is the best gift any fan of the Jossverse could
get for her/his birthday. Thank you.
Nino - Happy 20th! extra slice of cake for you...
[> we'll have to have cake at the gathering, too! (chocolate,
of course) -- anom, 19:28:22 06/16/04 Wed
Cake, cookies, chocolate...I think you were right, Masq--we may
not survive, but we'll die happy. And what a (belated) birthday
party!!!
"Just wanted to say how much I appreciate all you guys and
the wonderful community we have here!"
Thanks to you, Masq, every one of us here can say the same.
Happy birthday, dear ATPo...Happy birthday to you!
[> & today is someone else's birthday: rahael!! -- anom,
19:46:40 06/16/04 Wed
I think it's already over where she is. And she may not see this
for a while (not much time to spend online, & d'Herblay is visiting!).
But what does that matter? Happy Birthday, Rahael!!! Hope you
& d'H are having a great celebration!
[> [> Penblwydd Hapus i'r Bwrdd a Rah! (Wicked, Masq!
Love this Board!) -- Marie, 01:49:47 06/17/04 Thu
[> [> Thank you, Marie and Anom!! -- Rahael, 07:33:13
06/19/04 Sat
[> Re: Happy belated birthday to the ATPo board! --
Cheryl, 20:13:45 06/16/04 Wed
Thank you, Masq! I've loved this board since the day I found it.
You done good!
[> [> Thanks! *blushes* -- Masq, 10:24:20 06/17/04
Thu
[> Thank you for giving me internet home!!!! *hugs and cookies*
-- angel's nibblet, 00:21:52 06/17/04 Thu
[> Thanks for starting this, and to everyone who's posted!
-- KdS, 02:33:28 06/17/04 Thu
[your choice here] bless us, every one!
[> [> Allah? Zeus? Saint Mary? Jasmine? -- Masq,
11:46:07 06/17/04 Thu
[> [> [> Glory! The God of bad home perms! --
angel's nibblet, 17:57:35 06/17/04 Thu
[> [> [> on this board? shouldn't it be bast?
-- anom, 10:56:15 06/18/04 Fri
[> A gift for the occasion - -- Darby, 08:46:06 06/17/04
Thu
This kind of reminded me of the situations of several folks here...
http://www.fried.com/pics/liberal.gif
and there are more here -
http://www.fried.com/friedsociety/
[> [> LOL! We've found the perfect compromise! --
Masq, 11:50:17 06/17/04 Thu
Talk about art history, women's studies, philosophy, literature,
etc, etc, on the internet as we sit behind computers at our 9-to-5
jobs.
"My philosophy PhD didn't go to waste! I have a
website!"
[> Re: Happy belated birthday to the ATPo board! --
breidablik, 09:28:05 06/17/04 Thu
It a wonderful place you've created here Masq!
Thanks to you and all the posters who have so added to my enjoyment
of the shows.
[> [> Hey breidablik! Nice to see you here! -- Masq,
11:06:26 06/19/04 Sat
[> (adding voice to chorus of praise) -- MsGiles, 05:45:24
06/18/04 Fri
dauntingly high standard of contributions, discussions, wit
the best way of staying sane at work ever
(I'm here at my desk .. I'm in front of my computer .. I'm concentrating
.. that's what I'm paid for .. er .. isn't it?) (although the
occasional burst of hysterical laughter does give the game away
somewhat)
[> [> Thank you Masq (and everyone) for making this board
so Yummy! -- Briar Rose, 12:21:59 06/18/04 Fri
Why is information on STV,s
suppressed by the WC? -- Greg White, 16:54:32 06/16/04
Wed
Why is it that whenever a slayer is turned into a vampire the
watcher,s council doesn,t want to talk about it? They should admit
that it happens and have their own task force to deal with it.
Replies:
[> Re: Why is information on STV,s suppressed by the WC?
-- BrianWilly, 19:47:44 06/16/04 Wed
When did official canon* ever mention that
A) a Slayer has turned into a vampire in the past?
B) assuming that A has happened, the Watcher's Council has ever
denied it?
C) assuming that A and B have happened, the Watcher's Council
doesn't actually have a task force to deal with it?
Do you see what I'm saying? Now, I personally think it's quite
possible that Slayers have turned into vampires before,
just as it's quite possible that the Watcher's Council has
kept it quiet, just as it's very possible that they do
have a branch that deals with it.
But we don't actually know any of this, not for sure...it's
all guesstimations and assumptions, which makes the situation
difficult to analyze. Just because it's possible doesn't mean
it actually happened.
*by official canon, I mean information straight from the show
itself or from Joss and not information from the novels or comics
or games.
[> [> In "EU" there are 2 -- Majin Gojira,
05:07:04 06/18/04 Fri
There is a Slayer-Vamp in the Novels (I do not recall her name),
and one in the comics by the name of Yuki Mara (She was turned
by the Master).
Yuki Mara is the only one of them to have appeared in anything
remotely cannonical--a small guestit in the final story in the
"Tales of the Slayer" comic.
[> [> [> Re: In "EU" there are 2 --
Greg White, 06:34:52 06/18/04 Fri
Britta Kessler is a slayer-vamp.Her story in ,,Tales Of The Slayer
Vol.1,,is open-ended.It,s entitled,,Silent Screams,,.Her sire
was Herr Sahr.Her watcher was Frederich Litchermann.It,s set in
1923 Munich.What happened to her is anyone,s guess.Bringing across
a slayer is what vampires like to do most.I,m surprized that it
doesn,t happen more often.
[> [> [> [> Re: In "EU" there are 2
-- Majin Gojira, 08:50:43 06/18/04 Fri
"Bringing across a slayer is what vampires like to do most.I,m
surprized that it doesn,t happen more often."
Refrase that:
"IF bringing across a slayer is what Vampires like to do,
THEN shouldn't it happen more often?"
[> [> [> [> [> I've long theorized that most
vampires who put much thought into it wouldn't sire a Slayer
-- Finn Mac Cool, 10:19:24 06/18/04 Fri
It's unknown how a Slayer's powers would transfer over to a vampiric
form. It's possible they'd lose all their Slayer abilities and,
like all other vampires, be given supernatural strength of varying
amounts. It's also possible that they'd simply retain their Slayer
powers, but it could also be that these powers would be magnified
just as becoming a vampire magnifies the strength of normal humans.
If it's either of the last two possibilities, then most vampires
wouldn't want to sire a Slayer; who would want the competition?
You've suddenly brought forth an uber-powerful vampire who, like
most vampires, probably doesn't have a problem with killing her
own kind to get what she wants. If you want to have a position
of power, or eat someone she wants to eat, or simply piss her
off, you could wind up a big ol' pile of dust. That would explain
why the only vampire we've ever seen express an interest in turning
a Slayer into a vampire is Kralik, who was almost totally insane.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I've long theorized
that most vampires who put much thought into it wouldn't sire
a Slayer -- Rich, 10:30:36 06/18/04 Fri
Also - remember what happened when Dracula encouraged Buffy to
taste his blood ? If other Slayers react like Buffy, letting them
get that close would be a seriously bad idea.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I've long theorized
that most vampires who put much thought into it wouldn't sire
a Slayer -- Gyrus, 11:03:14 06/18/04 Fri
That would explain why the only vampire we've ever seen express
an interest in turning a Slayer into a vampire is Kralik, who
was almost totally insane.
Didn't Angelus say in "Release" that he was planning
to turn Faith into a vampire?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I've long theorized
that most vampires who put much thought into it wouldn't sire
a Slayer -- Kana, 12:03:33 06/18/04 Fri
If you are referring to the line i think you are referring to
then it could be interpreted another way.
Faith: I'm not like you.
Angelus: You will be.
He could have simply meant he was going to kill her, get it? Like
a vampire , dead?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> He could also
be refering to..... -- Briar Rose, 12:20:37 06/18/04 Fri
the fact that if Faith had continued on the road she was on before
the Fang Gang sprung her, she could have easily turned into the
exact same type of malicious and dangerous monster that Angelus
was.
It's not hard to see the same type of pathological need to torment
and drive insane the people she dislikes. Just look at her need
to go after Buffy's BF when she was magically transformed into
Buffy. Also before that, when she was all set to kill Joyce, simply
because she was Buffy's mother and therefore her death would really
hurt Buffy in ways Faith couldn't do directly to Buffy, herself.
I guess you could also add her attempts to make it with Angel
and her fight to keep her blood away from Angel when he needed
it..... Was that self preservation or more about making sure Angel
died, which would hurt Buffy tremendously?
I can see where Angelus (the master of emotional attack) would
use the past to taunt Faith into believeing that she was destined
to fail. Not only in her attempt to get Angelus under control,
but also on a broader level. That's what Angelus did the best.
Turn a mirror (even if a slightly skewed on) on his victim of
the moment, to throw them off balance and make his own plans easier
to accomplish.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: He
could also be refering to..... -- Kana, 13:53:05 06/18/04
Fri
Good point! When you think about it Angelus could have killed
Faith in that fight (Remember the gun) but why go for the kill
when you can go for the hurt, which is why he wanted to taunt
her as well as beat her half to death.
It's an interesting parallell, Angelus is sadistic because of
his lack of ability to love or be loved. In his rage he has to
act out. That same time and care that one would put into relationships,
he can only translate into torture and inflicting pain onto others.
This why Angelus didn't simply just torment those he hated, in
fact Angelus hardly hated any of his victims, but he could not
care for or love them either so there you have it.
Faith's rage over how people have treated her in the past and
as I've said many times before, her poor self-esteem is her personal
demon that drove her to do the things that she did. By sinking
further into darkness she was attempting to remove her soul, and
any hope of redemption (err 'cause like it's hard). So in a way
she wanted to be like Angelus and Angel could see that in her.
But when she seeks redemption Angelus sees that hope and wants
to diminish it.
I don't think Angelus simply intends to throw his victims off
balance to makes his plans easier though, i kind of think he gets
of on the power of destroying someone in every single way.
Interesting, Angel used that idetification to help Faith, Angelus
used it to try and destroy her.
[> [> [> [> [> [> For this I refer to the
RPG -- Majin Gojira, 16:14:44 06/18/04 Fri
From the "Monster Smackdown" Supliment, p. 26 (Snipping
some of the rules information)
"Slayers have always been a willful lot. That combined with
the Slayer's powers may make them immune to being "turned"
by a vampire. That's not clearly spelled out in the BtVS TV serues.
Indeed, the Fifth season premire suggests the opposite and BtVS
stories in other media have explored the idea of a Slayer vamp.
We've got some ideas on this subject too (big surprise!).
We are going to say that Slayers are naturally lresistant to being
turned into a vampire. They have a natural aversion to anything
vampy and the whole hate-hate relationship between vampires and
the spirit of the First Slayer going for them. In our view, the
demon blood is going to have a hard time survivng its trip through
the hostile territory of the Slayer's digestion. Unlike other
normal Janes out there, Slayers can make a resisted roll pitting
their Will...against a Will...for the invading vampire spirit,
to resist the turning. If successful, the ... First Slayerspirit
beats the vampire spirit back and keeps it from taking over. Of
course, the Slayer may still die, unless a friend is nearby to
help out with a blood transfusion or keep her alive long enough
to get her to the hospital. If the resisted roll failed, the Slayer
will eventually turn into a creature of the night and rise from
her grave to terrorize yadda-yadda-yadda...
...A Slayer who dies and returns from as a vampire loses much
of her former glory. However, she gets to keep [Snip to: Certain
bonuses to strength, dexterity and contitution, as well as her
fighting ability, resistance to fear effects and reaction speed,
as well as her levels in "Hard to Kill"]. Lastly, she
no longer has the ability to sense the presence of Vampires and
she may still be attacked by other vampiric adversaries until
she's proven she's one of the gang now.
Combinined with the vampire quality benifits (where not duplicated),
this makes a former Slayer vamp a pretty tough cookie. We'd expect
no less."
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> I reeeeeeeeally want
to get that book. -- BrianWilly, 18:08:01 06/18/04 Fri
I don't have much pen-and-paper experience, but from what I've
heard of the Buffy and Angel RPGs it's really well done and true
to the spirit of the shows.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Joss & Co input
-- VampRiley, 18:20:59 06/18/04 Fri
Do we know how much imput Joss & Co had on the RPGs? I thought
I read something somewhere on this saying one way or the other,
but I can't remember it.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> As Far as I
know -- Majin Gojira, 04:56:41 06/19/04 Sat
It gets approval from the copyright holders (Fox) and the Creator
(Joss)
In order to be published, each one has to be OKed with Fox (Which
is the current problem with the latest instalment...Fox hasn't
responded yet).
What's great about the RPG's Canonicity is that it is literally
an interpretation of what it aired, with warnings to when they
knowingly go out of canon.
[> Re: Why is information on STV,s suppressed by the WC?
-- lele, 15:36:12 06/21/04 Mon
hmm, neat. Maybe this task force could be the forerunner of the
team that went after Faith in BtVS S3,S4 and AtS S1. It would
be a nice tie-in. An 'elite' team within the WC, handpicked by
whoever heads the council at that time to take care of rogue slayers,
possessed slayers, 'turned'slayers, etc. There are rumors of the
'team' but no hard evidence. Maybe they don't even have to be
watchers in training, but have to have the 'right' traits(thuggishness
hehe) for the job.
Aspects of the Buffyverse
- CASTING (Pt 1) -- Darby, 05:07:25 06/17/04 Thu
Well, we can look across the expanse of the Sunnydale Universe
with a long lens now, so I intend to take a look at some of the
aspects of Television shows and how they apply to the Whedon group.
Today - picking folks to say the lines.
Casting is a tremendously important part of successful television,
and involves linking individual actors to parts as well as to
other actors. Shows like our Whedony favorites, as well as Frasier,
The Sopranos, Sex and the City, The Shield, West Wing, even
Two-and-a-Half Men, rise above the rest partly on the strength
of the entire ensemble. If the mix isn't right, or if only a few
casting spots are right (such as Tru Calling or Babylon
5), the overall quality suffers. Buffy obviously has
a strong cast, or did initially. How did they put it together?
As always, the following is opinion - it's here for other folks
to weigh in on.
BASIC REQUIREMENTS.
With Whedon, dialogue is emperor. First and foremost, an actor
needs to be able to "get it" with any of these shows.
Buffyverse dialogue, although more naturalistic than, say, Mamet
or Sorkin, has a rhythm and a presentation that has to sound
natural. And, although this does not apply equally to all principals
(think of Joyce or Gru), each actor must be able to respond to
lines without losing the rhythm (for an example of this not
happening, think of Principal Flutie).
REQUIREMENTS FOR PRINCIPAL CHARACTERS (STARTING) -
BUFFY: Must be able to play mid-teens and drive the male viewers
wild. Needs to some extent to embody the Goldilocks aspect of
horror-damsels but also be able to kick ass. Must be able to deliver
Whedon quips but also handle a lot of dark emotions, as well as
be romantic lead. Must be able to generate chemistry with virtually
the entire cast. If cast today: Evan Rachel Wood. Maybe
Amanda Bynes. Longshot: Hilary Duff. Sarah Michelle Gellar was
close to perfect, from the beginning up through Buffy's second
death; beyond that, the results are debatable.
XANDER: Also must be able to play mid-teens and be someone
others can believably push around, as well as appear physically
inept. Useful if they can play academic dumb. Must be able to
play funny and to be funny. From actual casting, the latter
overbalances the formers. Must have chemistry with BUFFY and WILLOW.
Nicholas Brendon probably was a different Xander than any other
actor would have been, so much so that it is hard to imagine anyone
else adequately filling this role. However, attempts to deepen
or stretch the character met with varied levels of success.
WILLOW: Also must be able to play mid-teens and be someone
others can believably push around. Must be able to play funny
and be able to "fail" funny in a funny way. Must be
able to handle nerd-level exposition and believably fake computer
usage. Must have chemistry with BUFFY and XANDER. If cast today:
Lauren Ambrose, Alexis Bledel. Maybe Mischa Barton (with new hair
color), Julia Whelan. Alyson Hannigan fit the mold well, especially
in the chemistry generated with the other characters and balancing
the shy nerd with the supportive-but-powerful sidekick. She gave
the show something to build on with her ability to play a broad
range of emotions in a way that reaches the viewers.
GILES: Must be significantly older than other mains. Must
be able to play stuffy without being stuffy - must be likeable
but someone to poke fun at. Must be capable "straight man."
Must be able to handle complex exposition. Must be able to range
between physically capable and physically inept. Must have chemistry
with BUFFY. Anthony Stewart Head was perhaps the single best casting
move, something not that apparent until Giles' role was diminished
and then eliminated.
CORDELIA: Must be able to play "stuck up bitch"
but add dimensions subsequently. Must seem equal to BUFFY in many
ways and capable of generating conflict with her. Must be prepared
to set up jokes at the character's expense as well as being capable
"straight man." Charisma Carpenter handled the role
well, but was a bit too good at playing the outsider - it took
her well into Angel to develop any relaxed chemistry with
other characters.
ANGEL: Must not seem significantly older than Buffy, although
somewhat older. Must be able to drive female viewers wild. Must
be able to generate mystery without getting annoying. Must be
able to fight convincingly. Must be capable "straight man."
Must be capable of being romantic lead. Must have chemistry with
BUFFY. David Boreanaz was a lucky find, barely adequate at first
but capable of developing, of headlining his own show and navigating
a very tricky - and not always completely successful - progression
of character as private dick / superhero / submerged evil genius
/ occasional goofball.
JOYCE: Barely old enough to be BUFFY's mom. Must be capable
of exerting authority in a non-authoritarian way. Must be capable
of arguing but still being likeable. Emotional connection to BUFFY
must be believable. Kristine Sutherland was fine for what she
was given, not quite up to typical quippy dialogue but was able
to establish a strong familial bond. By The Body, she was
Buffy's (and the other teens') Mom.
THE MASTER: Must be able to play evil, powerful, and ancient
with a light touch. Must be able to be threatening and
non-threatening. Must grasp ironic nature of the character. Mark
Metcalf was a critical element to establishing the tone of the
series, was able to serve up personality with a character
that had not a whole lot to do.
PRINCIPAL FLUTIE: Must be a clueless authority figure.
Must be able to be funny without knowing it. Must be able to deliver
"touchy-feely" lines without being too creepy. Ken Lerner
never quite got Flutie out of the "stock character"
zone; his funny lines read funnier than they come off in the episodes.
REQUIREMENTS FOR PRINCIPAL CHARACTERS (ADDED) -
OZ: Must be able to play mid-to-upper teens. Must be believable
as rock guitarist / closet nerd. Must be able to be purposely
deadpan-funny. Must have chemistry with WILLOW. Seth Green took
over this part - it's difficult to believe that we would have
been given laconic minimalist Oz with any other actor playing
him. He has difficulty playing any level of dangerous, however.
FAITH: Must be able to play upper teens. Should be equal-but-opposite
to BUFFY. Must be capable of playing loose and sexual. Must be
able to fight believably. Must be able to play evil without completely
losing likeability. Eliza Dushku was well-cast as Faith, but would
not have been as good a SMG was at Buffy. As a show main character,
she is not as capable of generating connection chemistry
with other actors.
SPIKE: Must be likeable badass-rebel. Must have chemistry
with DRUSILLA. James Marsters was a gift from the casting gods,
which is why he emerged from the depths of demondom and took on
multiple incarnations as the show went on. JM can generate chemistry
with a piece of furniture.
ANYA: (First) - Must be able to play upper teens. Must
have some chemistry with CORDELIA. Must be able to be menacing.
(Second) - Must be able to play pathetic / exasperated in a funny
way. (Final) - Must have chemistry with XANDER. Must be able to
play funny outsider-character-that-comments-on-everything without
being too dumb. Emma Caulfield was another find, handling an extremely
difficult character type and making her growth believable.
WESLEY: Must be believable as priggish upper-class Englishman,
authoritarian without a hint of authority. Must be believable
as a bumbler, physically and conversationally. Alexis Denisof
seemed at first a poor casting choice - his broad version of Wesley
seemed out of place among the deeper characters, and as depth
was added in Season 3 it was not even or entirely believable.
Whether that was choices made by the actor or the writers is unclear,
but they did think enough of him to bring him to Angel
with the aim of developing the character. This was when Alexis
began to shine, bringing Wesley on a gradual journey to the point
where he could have a woman locked in the closet with a
bucket, and we accepted it.
RILEY: Must be the embodiment of the All-American Boy and
in many ways the opposite of ANGEL. Must be physically imposing
enough to balance established power of BUFFY. Must be capable
romantic lead. Must be able to play funny and to be funny. Must
be able to play conflicted. Must have chemistry with BUFFY. Marc
Blucas may not have been the perfect choice, but he was much better
than many fans give him credit for. His line delivery was significantly
different than the resident actors', which sometimes broke the
rhythm of a scene, but with Riley as an outsider that sort of
worked. Not as adept with the darker elements of the character,
and especially lost connection chemistry with SMG as the storyline
got rougher.
TARA: Needs to be earthy. Must be believably shy and quiet.
Must have chemistry with WILLOW. With Amber Benson, the chemistry
had a subtext that diverted a character arc. Amber never seemed
entirely comfortable in Tara's skin, and her delivery of quips
never matched the show's rhythm, but she brought an interesting
emotional depth that wasn't in the other characters.
DAWN: Must be able to play early teens. Must be able to
play bratty little sister with element of danger. Must have chemistry
with JOYCE and conflict-chemistry with BUFFY. Michelle Trachtenberg
was a good choice, as long as the mystery of Dawn, with its hint
of danger, played out quickly. She did not handle shifts of Dawn's
"written age" well (the character's emotional age in
various scripts was all over the map), but few young actresses
could. She handled later developments of the character well, including
a tricky transition to sexy.
KENNEDY: Must be able to play late teens. Must be able
to play rich brat-type with likeability. Should be sexually aggressive
but non-threatening. Must have chemistry with WILLOW. Inari Lymon
didn't quite fit this bill, although she got somewhat better at
it as time went on.
DOYLE: Must be able to play reprobate sidekick. Must handle
sometimes-complex exposition. Must have chemistry with ANGEL and
conflict-chemistry with CORDELIA. Glenn Quinn was well-cast, but
we'll never know how much beyond the initial Doyle he could have
grown.
GUNN: Must be able to play "street" with intelligence.
But be able to fight believably, especially with weapons. Should
have chemistry with ANGEL and conflict-chemistry with WESLEY.
J. August Richards has handled a fair amount of change as Gunn
and done it well. He generated chemistry with FRED and then just
turned it off, which is not easy. "Lawyer Gunn" never
seemed fully integrated into the base character, but that might
have been deliberate.
LORNE: Must be able to sing. Must be adept with light insults.
Must be able to tolerate heavy prosthetics. Andy Hallett made
Lorne likeable and very funny, but his emotional connection to
the rest of the group was tenuous.
FRED: Must be able to play very vulnerable and brilliant-but-crazy.
Amy Acker gave Fred a voice and established a firm chemistry with
most of the other characters. Given a chance to stretch as Illyria,
she was more than up to the challenge.
CONNOR: Must be able to play mid-teens. Must be fully believable
as fighter. Must be able to play conflicted and dangerous. Must
have conflict-chemistry with ANGEL. Vincent Kartheiser was okay
as Connor. He played a teen who had grown up with no social connections
and little ability to relate to other humans a little too well,
which didn't quite gel with the tone of the rest of the group.
His rhythm was also very different from the norm, but the return
of Suburban Connor showed that these were choices rather than
limitations.
There's actually a lot more to discuss. The Big Bads. Wolfram
and Hart. The Repeat Characters. The Guests, good and bad. But
this seems like enough. More to follow (unless absolutely no one
cares, nudge nudge).
TTFN (could Buffy really not know what that means?)
Replies:
[> Re: Aspects of the Buffyverse - CASTING (Pt 1) --
Cheryl, 07:03:14 06/17/04 Thu
There's actually a lot more to discuss. The Big Bads. Wolfram
and Hart. The Repeat Characters. The Guests, good and bad. But
this seems like enough. More to follow (unless absolutely no one
cares, nudge nudge).
There was a time when I thought I'd like to be a casting director
because I'd watch something and wonder how the heck they put that
group of people together, they were so bad. Other times I'd see
someone for the first time in something and *know* they were meant
to be a star (for example, Michael J Fox in a guest appearance
on Trapper John before Family Ties and Sean Penn in Taps - stars
from the get-go). So I think it's fascinating to look back on
the casting.
Especially when you consider some of the choices that were made,
like:
--SMG originally auditioned for Cordelia
--Julie Benz auditioned for Buffy
--Christian Kane auditioned for Riley
I'm glad they made the right decisions in casting!
I wish I were more familiar with the young stars of today so I
could offer some suggestions for who could be cast in which role
now. But I have no clue. I know what a lot of them look like,
but don't know their names.
[> Some responses -- CW, 07:46:12 06/17/04 Thu
Buffy - SMG really is best when she's chewing up the set. Like
the story or not, the Buffy of seasons 6 and 7 who almost never
changed her emotional state really didn't allow her to do her
thing.
Xander - Nick was a marginal actor when the show started. But,
by the time he was playing with his real-life twin in The Replacement,
he has improved so much it's almost always possible to tell who
is whom, even when they were switching parts between cuts, because
Nick was so comfortable with all the extremes of Xander.
Cordelia - I have to wonder if SMG would have stole the show if
she'd stayed Cordelia and some one else had been made Buffy. Can't
see the show lasting seven seasons that way.
Angel and Anya - At least according to what we've been told both
were more a matter of dumb luck and on screen chemistry than planning,
so you have to hand it to the actors one way or the other. Emma
Caulfield still needs some training in my book. She always expresses
the emotion nicely, but she's terrible about making her spoken
lines understandable.
The Master - I agree it was a critical part. The Master and his
followers as a group really was a leftover from Joss' dumbest
ideas from the movie. Mark Metcalf's ability to be less campy
than 'scary' probably was the difference between the show being
renewed for a second season or not.
Spike - Another example of an actor seizing what was supposed
to be a minor roll and shoving it in ME's face.
Drusilla - One Darby skipped - Hard to find another actress both
so attractive and so skeletal, so capable of playing such a wise
and insane character. It was another part that could have drug
the show down quickly if the wrong person had played it.
Riley - I just don't think that ME had a clear idea what they
were heading for when the part was cast. Mark was great as cool
grad-student guy, okay as John-Wayne-substitute, millitary guy,
and just awful as insecure boyfriend guy. I think if they'd looked
for that guy who was going to have problems with Buffy down the
road instead, the whole part might have come off better.
I largely agree with everything else.
[> a few random (possibly incoherent) thoughts -- radioreverie,
10:13:29 06/17/04 Thu
Have to just make these bullet points as I'm headed out the door.
Also, these are just in the order I'm thinking of them.
- Charisma Carpenter's comic timing was always scattershot. Half
the time she hit her mark, half the time she was *wildly* off.
I was glad to see her gone from Buffy, and her absence from S5
of Angel may be what makes it my favorite of the Angel seasons.
- Emma Caulfield's comic timing was very consistent though, and
she didn't tend to overact her hysteria nearly as much as Charisma.
- David Boreanaz definitely improved over the years, but he was
the weakest link on Buffy, and continued to be on his own show.
The expansion of his comedic skill on Angel was really what saved
his role. And the less we mention about the Irish accent, the
better.
- I love Alyson Hannigan, and can't think of anyone who plays
pain better than her. But I still can't help but wonder what the
role of Willow would have been like as played by the original
actress, Riff Regan. I think her performance in the pilot was
Alyson's equal, and it really would have been interesting to see.
Alyson was just always a bit too traditionally pretty for her
role, no matter how much I like the way she played it.
- What can I say about James Marsters that hasn't already been
said? He brought such a Shakespearean gravitas to that role, and
more than any other character, his skill shaped the direction
of the show.
- Sarah Michelle Gellar was the actress that grew the most over
the course of the series. In the first three seasons, she seemed
to be an actress that relied mostly upon certain dramatic tricks
to get the emotion across. But by the fifth season, she had truly
blossomed. I'd choose her confession to Tara during the latter
half of season 6 as my absolute favorite SMG-as-Buffy performance.
- Anthony Stewart Head really was what held the show together
in the beginning. He brought so much to what could have been a
fairly annoying role in the wrong hands. He was perfect in every
respect, and played an incredibly complex and layered character
with perfect grace and aplomb.
- Nicholas Brendon played Xander with such a palpable inferiority
complex, which was really key to the character. Other actors might
have been able to nail the quips, but he really nailed Xander's
hidden, impotent rage.
- Amber Benson was soft in all the right ways, but at the beginning
she played Tara with too many quirks. The shyness and the stutter
were painful rather than endearing, and it wasn't until she started
to shed the character's skin a bit that she really shone.
- Michelle Trachtenberg, while annoying to some, really played
a thankless character to the hilt. Dawn wasn't just Buffy's little
sister. She was mine, in every way. I have to think that all the
people who hate her must not have sisters. Because she really
got it. Annoying at the worst of times, whiny, entitled...that's
what little sisters are. But in the end, they're family.
- Seth Green's Oz was a delight to watch, but ultimately, I'm
not sure he could have carried the dramatic weight of the later
seasons, and I think his exit was fortuitous. And aside from his
lupine affliction, his character was a bit Mary Sue.
- Marc Blucas played his role exactly as written, I think. He
was the rebound guy. He knew it. Buffy knew it. We knew it. His
disconnection from the group worked very well. He didn't fit into
their world.
- Alexis Denisof is what made Angel, in every way. The show would
have been unbearable without him. He brought such depth and convincing
growth to his character, that it's easy to forget that there never
was such a man as Wesley Wyndham-Pryce.
- Amy Acker. Sweet thing, but seemed awfully one dimensional and
on occasion on the verge of annoying. So color me amazed when
it came to her performance of Illyria. It was nothing short of
astounding. Everything, down to her smallest movement, was so
perfectly calibrated.
- Eliza Dushku was also scattershot. She was actually better at
the more subtle dramatic moments than she was at the bravado,
which was supposed to be her defining characteristic. I'm still
not really sure how I feel about her portrayal of Faith. She definitely
had her moments, but she also really damaged the arc of the 3rd
season.
- J. August Richards...I can't say that I ever really warmed to
him. His perfomance was lackluster but adequate, though he did
start to get a lot better in S5 of Angel.
- Stephanie Romanov got the persona right from the start, though
her performance was occasionally shaky and stilted at the beginning.
She really became one of the best acted characters in S4 of Angel,
and it's really a shame that we didn't get to learn more about
her and that she never became a regular cast member. I would have
loved to see how she would have interacted with James Marsters.
- Iyari Limon was always going to be hated, so it's hard to judge
her performance on an objective level. One of the problems was
that she just seemed significantly younger than Willow, both physically
and emotionally. She wasn't as bad as most make her out to be,
and I think given time her character would have grown.
- Andy Hallett...he was always just a bit too broad for Angel's
universe. Though I really liked the world-weariness that he took
on towards the end of the series.
- Vincent Kartheiser. I'm really not sure whose fault his character
was. He just didn't have layers. A large part of this can definitely
be attributed to Vincent's one note performance.
- Juliet Landau...has anyone ever looked so much like a vampire,
so completely physically embodied her character? But she wasn't
without flaws. She headed towards laughable more than a few times,
and her accent was consistent but atrociously inaccurate.
- Julie Benz's whole schtick seemed to be varying the pitch of
her voice to signify whether she was good or evil. She had some
good moments, but she also had a lot of very hammy All My Children
moments.
- Christian Kane's skill is a bit hard to determine. His steely-eyed
intensity might have been an accident of anatomy that he had no
control over, or it might have been something he was very conscious
of. His voice had a grating, monotonous quality which was hard
to bear, and he was very sparing with the facial movements. I
don't really know how much of this was part of his character,
so I can't judge very accurately.
- Adam Busch as Warren was really the most frightening villain
one could ask for. Everyone knows a Warren. Everything, his geekiness,
his anger, his misogyny, was just perfectly portrayed. His is
the only Buffy villain ever to have invaded my nightmares, and
with good reason.
And now someone's outside frantically honking the horn for me,
so I think I should go!
[> It would be interesting to know how JW believed the various
actors implemented his ideas. -- Sophist, 12:42:10 06/17/04
Thu
After all, we each have our own opinions on the various actors;
I agree with you in part, with others in part, and have my own
opinions in still other areas. I would, however, be interested
in knowing if JW felt that certain actors expanded the range of
dramatic possibilities, hindered the story line, changed the story
line to take advantage of strengths or limit weaknesses, or just
hit the role as he intended.
I have read quotes by him which were highly complimentary of AH,
JM, SMG, and JL. I can't remember any others off-hand. Even the
ones I've read aren't very specific in terms of us understanding
how he believed the acting affected the show, although you can
obviously make inferences from his comments.
Casting has a huge impact on the success or failure of a show.
I wish there were a non-subjective way to measure that impact.
[> [> Re: It would be interesting to know how JW believed
the various actors implemented his ideas. -- StarryNightShade,
17:41:57 06/17/04 Thu
According to the commentary with Btvs Season 2 DVD set, David
Boreanaz's performance of Angelus possessed by a female ghost
in "I Only Have Eyes for You" is what got ME thinking
about an Angel spin-off series.
[> [> Whose JL? -- VR, 11:28:26 06/18/04 Fri
[> [> [> Oh, wait. [smacks side of head] Now, it hits
me. -- VampRiley, 11:32:11 06/18/04 Fri
[> striking -- manwitch, 11:35:07 06/18/04 Fri
I think one of the most striking things about your list is that
everyone on it is staggeringly attractive. Whether that's a Whedon
issue, or legacy from the WB, I don't know, but other shows don't
demand that even their villains and supporting roles, even small
character parts, be played by beautiful people. Who is ugly on
Frazier, or Will and Grace, or The West Wing?
People may argue, but there will be a list and it will include
significant characters. But who's ugly on Buffy? You don't get
a less than gorgeous person on Buffy until Warren, really. You
could make an argument for Skinner, but I'm not sure it would
hold up.
Beyond that, acting isn't a solo act. Writing and directing, even
lighting, make-up, costume, and editing, are all part of what
we perceive as the actor's performance. The Whedon crew is really
pretty phenomenal at bringing all aspects of the art form to bear
to create exactly the right characterization. Not that its all
as they planned, but the creative synergy with them works.
Look at Sarah Michelle Gellar on the Big Screen. She's ok at best.
While the movie Simply Irrisistable is not necessarily
the worst story ever told, her performance in it leaves a lot
to be desired. She didn't even bother to learn how to use a knife.
And the director didn't bother to obscure the fact that she didn't.
She's supposed to be this great chef and she can't chop things.
Even Nic Brendan and Emma Caulfield come off as only competent
in other endeavors.
But in Buffy, they really come off great. SMG particularly is
just fantastic. Its one of the great character creations there's
ever been, really. Her performances have been amazing. To name
a few of the best: Prophecy Girl, Innocence, Becoming, Ted,
Who Are You, Restless, No Place Like Home, The Body, Intervention,
The Gift. And the idea that she loses it in seasons 6 and
7 doesn't entirely hold up either, as Afterlife, Life Serial,
Once More with Feeling, Dead Things, Normal Again, Seeing Red,
Help, Him, and Empty Places or whatever its called,
are fantastic. You get her acting consistently at a level she
doesn't seem capable of even reaching in another context. Buffy
shows a range that SMG doesn't. Its one of the wierd things about
acting.
If anything changes in seasons 6 and 7, it would be the writing
and the direction. I think the actors do the best they can, but
what they're asked to do doesn't always make sense. Whether the
writing just wasn't as true to the characters, or whether important
development was left on the editing room floor, I don't know.
But the actor's seem to stay true in spirit, even if the text
doesn't seem quite right. To me the only time where someone was
given something simply out of their range, well, it would be Alyson
Hannigan as Evil Willow in season 6. But again its direction.
She was able to do a scary evil vampire creature in Doppelgangland
and it was utterly convincing. But in Season 6, she got caught
up in acting scary and evil, and it didn't work. Don't show us
scary, be scary. Think of the scariest villains on the show. The
Mayor, Drusilla, Glory. None of them play over the top scary.
They don't show us how scary they are. In fact, they scare us
by not showing us. By playing it down. By being so recognizable
and yet so different. If Harry Groener had beeb pushing his chest
out and screaming and growling he wouldn't have been scary at
all. Evil Willow is at her best in the little scene with Dawn.
Its underplayed. Its frightening. But when she does her highpitched
scream or stands in her power pose, it just doesn't work.
Same with Oz, in the episode where he cheats, and he stands in
macho pose outside the cage. Its just got a silly Tom Cruise quality
to it, someone acting tough that you could flick over with a finger.
Maybe that's what they were after.
Makeup has an effect as well. The makeup they use on evil Willow
flattens out her expressions. Her face seems plastic. Maybe for
some reason they thought they wanted that, but it makes her less
interesting. The makeup they use on Dawn, as well as lighting
and camera angles and costumes, are a huge aspect of how Michelle
Trachtenberg comes off as blossoming womanhood in character,
not simply as a cute chick on the TV. It makes her performance
in Potential or All the Way more convincing, since
that's what she's portraying. She's probably, along with Anthony
Stewart Head, the best actor on the show, the most transferrable,
one might say. But even they need good lines in consistent character,
and good direction.
The only really poor acting on the whole series is the trio of
season 6 and the atrocious Caleb. But again, writing and direction
play the largest of parts. They chose not to write them as real
fully fleshed out characters, and encouraged them or allowed them
to play cliches. There's no reason why Warren couldn't have been
a great character. They just chose not to write it.
By and large, I think it has to be the direction and the consistency
of the writing that make all these spectacularly beautiful people
come off as exceptional actors. That's the concept I'm arguing
for, even if people understandably quibble with my examples. Which
is not to say that the actors are just putty. They make it come
alive, but they have to have material to work with and some sort
of guide. Once they fall into place I think the writers feed off
the actors and the actors off the writers, and the direction feeds
off and guides all of them.
But so, I'm not sure that any of these people are simply "right"
for the part. That's why initially they were seen in different
roles. But they showed some flash, some aspect, that worked with
a character, and an ability to be directed in that character that
probably landed them where they were.
A lot of it is probably luck. We all just got really lucky.
[> [> Oh, and if cast today -- manwitch, 11:44:15
06/18/04 Fri
If Britain stole and adapted our TV shows the way we do theirs,
they might give Keira Knightley a go as Buffy. Of course, she'd
cost way too much. And she's totally old. Like 19. But I think
she's got the qualities one looks for in a Buffy.
[> [> Agree that acting isn't a solo act -- StarryNightShade,
11:47:35 06/18/04 Fri
I remember when Jessica Lange made her debut in King Kong. It
was an awful role in a mediocre, at best, movie. Everyone talked
about the fluzzie that couldn't act. I don't think anyone would
say that now....and given her work with the UN in the Democratic
Republic of Congo that anyone would call her a fluzzie.
As viewers we can only judge an individual's acting by seeing
how they respond by seeing them in a number of different circumstances.
Otherwise we leave ourselves in the "gee, who could of thought
so-and-so could act".
SNS
[> [> [> Another Example: Geena Davis -- SS, 14:54:31
06/18/04 Fri
When Geena Davis had her own sitcom, everybody thought it was
awful. (Me included)
Then she did Thelma and Louise.....WOW.
And now she is in MENSA, and a few years back almost made it onto
the US Olympic Archery Team.
SS
[> Wonderfalls Addendum -- Darby, 15:04:46 06/20/04
Sun
Sara and I were discussing the casting as it applies to some of
the other "extended-family" ME shows, and I think that
one of the major problems with Wonderfalls was that Caroline
Dhavernas, while interesting and attractive, did not present a
character with enough likeability to draw the audience in. We
didn't care enough about Jaye to want to stick with her,
to find out why she was the way she was. The peripheral casting
was very good, but the center didn't quite hold - what could have
been cute exasperation came out too much like pure snarky. I think
that some actresses could have pulled it off.
It's not really all the actress' fault; audience chemistry of
this sort is tough to produce. But could you imagine Alyson Hannigan
in the part? She could have done it, made us care while reading
the same lines, but I don't think SMG could have connected with
that role, either - not many folks could. Any other possibilities?
[> [> Re: Wonderfalls Addendum (future Wonderfalls spoilers,
well for the DVD anyway) -- Dochawk, 19:18:54 06/20/04
Sun
I agree with you that in the first episode, Jaye was not all that
likable, but I certainly did like her by the last aired episode.
I had the opportunity over the weekend to see two unaired episodes
with Todd Holland and Bryan Fuller (they said Tim Minnear was
too shy to come, but he would try to be at the next showings in
a month). Anyway, Jaye is much more likeable in the first one
(I forget the title, but something about a Lovesick Ass) and its
hard not to have your heart hurt for her with what happens in
the second episode they showed (Cocktail Bunny(#8).) when (spoiler
Alert) Heidi (played by Jewel Staite!!!wonder where she worked
with Tim Minnear before?) and Eric are remarried and Jaye's heart
is broken.
By the way, in Cocktail Bunny we learn why the animals talk to
Jaye, Dr. Ron gives her the monkey and a bunch of other stuff.
bryan Fuller also told us that on the DVDs they would point out
stuff that had been laid for future episodes and the basic plot
lines for season 2 and 3!.
[> [> [> Thanks for all of the info -- Darby,
05:02:07 06/21/04 Mon
The point that I was trying to make was that a show often doesn't
get a chance to pull viewers in if there isn't something about
the lead that makes an immediate connection.
I think that Amber Tamblyn did that with Joan of Arcadia,
a show with both a weird premise and a weird structure. There
was something about Joan, as played by AT, that made folks interested,
even though she could have been played, from the same script,
as much less likeable. I tuned in originally more for the adult
leads and some interest in how the show might pull off a near-impossible
premise, but it was the cast, pretty much the whole group, that
kept me interested - and I don't think my family is that
unusual, except that we avoid a lot of the Who Wants a Relationship
with a Pedophile?-type garbage on the air. We really wanted
to like Wonderfalls, but most of what kept us tuning in
there was brand loyalty, the feeling that it was going to get
better - the same argument I'll have to use on Sara when the DVDs
come out...
Buffy la Cazavampiros
-- Cactus Watcher, 08:26:40 06/18/04 Fri
After Darby's DVD Easter Egg question, I suddenly became curious
as to what exactly was on the French and Spanish tracks of Once
More With Feeling. I took a quick listen this morning to the first
section of each, indeed both do have singing in the apprapriate
lanuage. The Spanish track is a little odd with some dialog and
singing in the origianl English and the rest in Spanish. Both
dubbed Willow voices sound like Willow and both are better singers
than AH. Buffy's French and Spenish voices also sing a little
better than SMG. The Spanish Xander sounds amazingly like NB both
singing and speaking, but maybe sings with a little more talent
and experience. Both the French and Spanish Taras can sing but
neither is as good as the original. The French Tara is a perfect
example of someone with too much formal training in singing, and
sounds utterly ridiculous singing "I'm under your spell."
Never the Gile's nor the Anya's sound much like their counter
parts in English, but seem to be adequate singers... Haven't listened
to the Spikes yet.
Replies:
[> Dammit! I had a busy night ahead that just got busier!!
-- Marie, 08:37:26 06/18/04 Fri
[> [> Update -- CW, 08:58:34 06/18/04 Fri
The Spanish Spike does not attempt 'Let Me Rest in Peace,' but
at least muddles through "Walk Through the Fire." The
French Spike's voice is so much deeper it's a little strange,
but he's also a much better singer than JM palyed nearly side
by side.
Genereally the French and Spanish versions do all right with the
solos, but the English version is much superior anytime more that
one of the Scoobies is singing together as in the "Wish I
Could Stay." duet and the group parts of "Walk Through
the Fire."
Now, if we could just get a version in Welsh! ;o)
[> How is Buffy's voice in the video games? -- Merle,
15:55:36 06/18/04 Fri
SciFi.com reports that the same actress who did the voice in the
games will do it in the animated series. It also mentions the
other actors' voices appearing in the pilot. Does that imply that
they haven't signed on for a full series, or is it too early to
know?
http://www.scifi.com/scifiwire/art-main.html?2004-06/16/10.00.tv
[> [> To early to know...the series has not yet been
picked up -- Majin Gojira, 16:21:02 06/18/04 Fri
If it is, I'd like Sarah to do Buffy...the Video Game voicework
for Buffy was passable in the first one, but not so much in the
second one--too bubbly.
[> [> [> Re: To early to know...the series has not
yet been picked up -- BrianWilly, 17:47:44 06/18/04 Fri
I actually thought Giselle got a little better in the second one;
at times I even forgot that it wasn't the "Buffy" I
knew speaking. At times, of course. Not always;).
I'd rather have Sarah too, but that seems unlikely now, and if
not her then I'm perfectly comfortable with Giselle. As much hope
and anticipation as I have for the animated series, I think we'll
have to prepare ourselves in advance that it's not going
to be like the Buffy that we've known for so many years now.
[> Interesting... -- Ames, 23:00:28 06/19/04 Sat
It's odd the way the Spanish version keeps switching back and
forth between Spanish and English with Spanish subtitles. I wonder
if it's because they only did the Spanish soundtrack for the shortened
version of OMWF, so they have to insert English with Spanish subtitles
everywhere a cut was made.
One thing which I noticed in the Spanish and French versions is
that the singers are occasionally a little off-pitch in a natural
"live" way. By contrast that would seem to indicate
that the regular cast recording got some technological help like
dynamic pitch correction in post-production.
[> Re: Buffy la Cazavampiros -- Cheryl, 10:15:28
06/20/04 Sun
I wasn't even planning on listening to OMWF in the other languages
until you mentioned it. I'm almost up to that episode - it's taking
me a lot longer to get through this season, since it wasn't one
of my favorites - so now I'll definitely watch all versions.
What other shows are there
to watch? -- sogno radiofonico, 14:52:50 06/19/04 Sat
I'm trying to come to grips with the idea of there being nothing
to look forward to in the upcoming television season. I really
can't shake the conviction that Joss shows are just different,
in a way that might alienate me from television forevermore, because
nothing else reaches his heights.
I might watch the 4th season of Smallville, even though it is
quite possibly the worst show on television. Tom Welling is cute
enough for me to forgive that, and it is sadly one of the last
genre shows still in production.
I'm disappointed that The WB passed on Dark Shadows. While I was
initially quite against it, the cast (Drogyn! *drool*) looked
interesting.
I have been watching Six Feet Under, which is well-written and
acted, but somehow not nearly as riveting as the Joss troika.
Carnivale was visually interesting but about as involving as getting
one's teeth drilled. Partly because many of the scripts were just
atrociously bad.
I have heard good things about Deadwood, Dead Like Me, and The
Shield. Can anyone elaborate on their charms?
I really hope Marti Noxon's Point Pleasant gets an airing, as
it sounds interesting. I think Still Life is also officially dead,
yes?
And in January, a new show about a psychic played by Patricia
Arquette called Medium will be aired as a midseason replacement,
and it sounds at least vaguely interesting.
Desperate Housewives sounds intriguingly dark.
J.J. Abrams' Lost is getting some attention, but as I really couldn't
stand Felicity or Alias, I'm not really that hopeful.
And what about shows on DVD? I'm definitely going to buy The Office
and Twin Peaks, but what else might some of you recommend?
I'm especially interested in British series that I might have
missed her in America...
Nothing else seems to have the combination of gutwrenching drama,
wit, and poetry that Joss shows do.
Replies:
[> The Dead Zone, zombies, and wishful genre thinking
-- dmw, 15:49:05 06/19/04 Sat
If you want a genre show, what about the Dead Zone? It just started
a new season with an intriguingly dark 2-part episode. I've only
watched a few episodes of last season in re-runs, but it looks
like an interesting show. It's based on the novel, but obviously
the story didn't end the same way.
The genre show that I'm wishing for is one based on George Romero's
Dead trilogy, showing us how society decays as the epidemic progresses
from Night to Dawn to Day. On the bright side, it's a good year
for zombie movies, with DOTD 2004 turning out better than expected
(if not as good as the original) and the wonderful Shaun of the
Dead out in the UK.
Zombies make for a more interesting story than vampires do, so
I'm not sure why someone hasn't created a TV series yet.
[> [> I haven't liked what I've seen of The Dead Zone
-- raajio no yume, 15:51:23 06/19/04 Sat
It has a very cheesy quality to it, and it's overly episode-oriented.
[> [> Re: The Dead Zone, zombies, and wishful genre thinking
-- fresne, 08:51:42 06/21/04 Mon
Definitely, a zombie/fall of civilization series would be fascinating.
Although, I'd be prefer to start with the scenario in Dawn, rather
than Night, just so we're in the midst of civilization as it falls
apart. You'd probably have to slow down the spread of things a
bit in order to cover Night, Dawn, Day over the course of a season.
Slow the zombies back down to zombie speed, as opposed to zombies
on speed. They aren't fast, they are relentless, inexorable and
ultimately multitudes. Play with concepts like humans as automatons.
Characters in a pressure cooker of behavior. The nature of civilization,
is it in our things or in our actions? And so on.
As to Dead Zone, I watched an episode just this morning. I'm very
curious to see what the pay off is on the gradual build to Johnny's
visions of an apocalypse. There's underlying sense that many of
the things Johnny is doing are feeding into a larger coherent
story. However, like Johnny himself, we just don't have all the
pieces yet.
It still waits to be seen if this is an X-files, we didn't so
much have a plan as ambiance, or a Babylon 5, uh, yes, there is
a plan. I'm guessing somewhere in the middle. We'll see.
[> [> [> The Dead Zone is a perfect show - possible
Spoilers -- Sofdog, 11:43:31 06/21/04 Mon
This season is being called the third but technically it's the
fourth. Last year they did a full season followed by an immediate
summer season.
The apocalypse arc has been building since the second season when
Greg Stilson, the politician, was introduced. The two actually
met once as children and that's when Johnny first had that vision
of DC. With the guy from the future winking in that situation
has gotten ever more intriguing.
I've been in love with the show from day one.
[> [> [> Re: The Dead Zone, zombies, and wishful genre
thinking -- dmw, 15:20:14 06/21/04 Mon
Definitely, a zombie/fall of civilization series would
be fascinating. Although, I'd be prefer to start with the scenario
in Dawn, rather than Night, just so we're in the midst of civilization
as it falls apart. You'd probably have to slow down the spread
of things a bit in order to cover Night, Dawn, Day over the course
of a season. Slow the zombies back down to zombie speed, as opposed
to zombies on speed. They aren't fast, they are relentless, inexorable
and ultimately multitudes. Play with concepts like humans as
automatons. Characters in a pressure cooker of behavior. The
nature of civilization, is it in our things or in our actions?
And so on.
I think you're right that you'd want to start with Dawn or at
least get there quickly, and of course, you'd want to use Romero's
classic shambling zombies, not the DOTD2004 sprinters. There's
no way anyone's going to survive DOTD2004 for long, and frankly,
I think the shamblers are creepier, as there's this sense that
they're going to get you eventually, so there's not any point
in them running.
I think you'd want to do a season of Dawn, ending with the zombies
breaching the protagonists' defences, then moving onto a full
Day scenario in the next season. By the way, there are some excellent
Romero fan fiction writers at Home
Page of the Dead. Rebecca Brock's stories like Junebug and
Trailer Park of the Damned are great, and Kurt Warner wrote a
good original Dawn style story--Dead in the Water--with a cruise
liner instead of a mall, and I love his Christmas short, The Dead
of Winter.
[> Re: What other shows are there to watch? -- botitas, 22:40:54 06/19/04
Sat
You are right there is not much out there. However if you have
an interest in SciFi, the scifi channel is repeating episodes
of Farscape. Farscape has a few similarities to Firefly,outlaws
running around the galaxy in a spaceship and if you can get past
themesong, you may enjoy it. Farscape was produced in Austrialia
and ran for four years on the SciFi channel. Of course since I
liked the show, it was cancelled, but I really enjoyed it when
it was on and there is to be a new Farscape mini-series later
this year. I believe all four seasons are out on DVD, and the
Scifi channel often runs three shows in a row late Thursday night.
The Shield is fairly interesting mainly due to its main charater
Vic who is a complex mix of good and evil. So the shows blurring
of right and wrong has a bit of Joss in it. I believe some of
the writers of Angel and/or Buffy now work on The Shield. Another
interesting show IMHO is Nip/Tuck. The interactions between the
wonderfully faulted characters drives the show and makes it better
than most of what's on TV.
Well that gives you a few things to check into but none excite
me as much as the Whedon troika, although Farscape's close. Sadly
a couple of years ago, I had four programs to record, BTVS, ATS,
Firefly, and Farscape, now none.
[> [> Re: What other shows are there to watch? --
Faith,
04:59:43 06/20/04 Sun
Dead Like Me, Tru Calling. Though, I personally like Dead Like
Me.,
XxFaith.
[> [> Re The Shield -- KdS, 11:26:26 06/21/04
Mon
The series is, if I understand correctly, largely created by Shawn
Ryan, who wrote a number of episodes of AtS2 and was the only
ME writer who seemed to feel confident writing Gunn's street milieu.
[> Re: What other shows are there to watch? -- Susan,
07:40:30 06/21/04 Mon
Hey sogno radiofonico,
It's a good question, but there are some quality serial TV shows
out there. I'm personlly a big fan of The Shield -- a great anti-hero,
complex characters, and story arcs. The first two seasons are
out on DVD
I also quite enjoyed 24 -- it won't change the world, but it's
fun television. I've found that it's more satisfying to watch
it on DVD (all in one gulp, as it were), than to wait for a new
episode each week.
I also really like Gilmore Girls -- sharp, snappy dialogue and
not as twee as it looks. Apparently Jane Esperanson (sp?) from
Buffy is on staff. The first season is out on DVD.
You also might want to give Roswell a try. The first season is
out on DVD and Sci-Fi Channel is running it at 4 p.m. starting
soon. It's not as complex nor as quippy as Buffy, but it does
deal with some interesting teen problems with the alien metaphor.
It's well-acted and the set and lighting designs are great.
Good luck!
[> The West Wing -- Gyrus, 08:35:39 06/21/04 Mon
I've been watching this show in reruns on BRAVO and have found
that its clever, snappy dialogue is very much like that of BTVS.
[> [> Sports Night! -- Susan, 10:55:45 06/21/04
Mon
Aaron Sorkin's other show, Sports Night, is also full of sophisticated
quips and great relationships between and among characters. It's
off the air, but now out on DVD.
[> [> [> I adore Sports Night, even though I don't
like sports, which says a great deal about its quality. --
Rob, 16:46:52 06/21/04 Mon
[> [> But don't mistake it for the West Wing... --
Dochawk, 17:30:46 06/21/04 Mon
Which is showing new episodes on NBC. Aaron Sorkin is no longer
writing the episodes and its really obvious. The stories are there
(well except for the lousy way they concluded the kidnapping),
but there isn't one writer on staff who is the quality of Drew
Goddard, Tim Minnear or any of the ME writers, let alone Aaron
Sorkin or Joss Whedon, the two best writers on tv (well who used
to be on TV! :( )
[> [> Re: The West Wing -- Jane, 18:00:06 06/21/04
Mon
I loved the West Wing until Sorkin left. Then it seemed to turn
into soap opera ala ER, and I gave up on it. Too bad, cause the
first 3 seasons were great. It's true, nothing holds my interest
like Joss's stuff does. :(
[> I'll give praise to The Shield... -- Seven, 11:43:16
06/21/04 Mon
Shawn Ryan's The Shield is (by default stemming from a certain
cancellation) my new favorite show. My friends and I cannot miss
an episode. They just wrapped up the 3rd season and have been
picked up for a fourth, so no worries on that front.
Some key points to see if it's a show for you:
The show is created by Shawn Ryan, a former writer on Angel
It is a cop show, but it's not. That would be like saying Taxi
was about driving people around the city. The show deals with
really great characters who take a more realistic (yet highly
dramatic) approach to fighting crime.
My favorite aspect of this show, however, is the characters. Here's
a run-through:
Captain Acevada: Latino Police Captain of the Farminton District.
He is hard at work trying to push his political aspirations and
often doesn't perform well at his current position, one he attained
through paperwork, not street cred.
The Strike Team:
Vic Mackey: The star of the show. A bulldog of a man. Fierce yet
likeable, Mackey has bent the rules to the point where even he
can't decipher which way is up. Every episode sees him in a precarious
position, his lies and deceptions almost catching up with him.
Shane Vendrell: The Redneck from Hot-lanta and Vic's best friend.
When the strike team (four or five plain clothes detectives who
"knock down the doors other cops don't want to") was
formed, Vic chose 3 of his running buddies. Shane is hot-headed
and rascist and often gets the team in trouble. He represents
the darker side of Vic.
Curtis "Lemonhead" Lemansky: The heart and consciouse
(sp?) of the group. he is the other reflection of Vic. He is a
true SoCal surfer guy but a baddass to boot. One of my favorite
characters.
Ronnie: The quiet member. Ronnie delivers hardley any lines and
is rarely questioned on matters, but this makes his character
interesting because no one has any idea what he is ever thinking.
He'll make a great character down the line.
Detectives:
Holland "Dutch" Wagonbach: A genious when it comes to
figuring out serial killer patters but a social moron. Obviously
harrassed as a teen, he is looking for acceptence and finding
it nowhere, even after showing off his impressive detective skills.
he gets respect from no one. He is my absolute favorite character.
It has got to be hard to make such an unlikable person so likeable.
Claudette Whims: Played by the magnificent CCH Pounder, Det. Whims
is the most by-the-books detective in the district ... AND she
still manages to get results, even if she occasionally manages
to piss off the rest of the force. She is incredibly smart and
moral. She was after the Captains job, but life threw her a curve.
Officer Danny Sulpher: Training officer to Julian. She often gets
unfortunatly caught up in everyone else's dramas because of her
position and allegiance the the cop brotherhood.
Officer Julian (I can't remember last name): early on, he's still
training. He is a devout christian, yet homosexual, something
that conflicts with his strong beleifs and often gets him into
trouble.
that's all for now, write back if you'd like more info, or better
yet, do yourself a favor and just by the season 1 dvds. I promise
they are worth it.
7
[> Re: What other shows are there to watch? -- Dan,
22:54:39 06/21/04 Mon
My Recommedations:
Joan of Arcadia is an interesting family drama that plays more
real that you would expect.
I second the Sports Night recommendation which is just great fun
and works for both the sports fan and those who could care less.
Coupling, the original british version, is good for outrageous
laughs with detailed plotting that is comparable to Seinfeld.
Its first three series are all available on DVD.
The Office is very funny but is painful to the point of being
difficult to watch for me.
Fawlty Towers is great as well if you haven't seen it.
And if you are willing to branch out to something like an anime
series. I would recommend Cowboy Bebop to you.
Dan
[> [> Re: I can't believe I forgot to mention Arrested
Development -- Dan, 08:58:28 06/23/04 Wed
One Additional Recommendations:
Arrested Developmet is great comedy. It is very well written and
has a excellent cast.
Dan
[> Re: What other shows are there to watch? -- Grant,
14:30:02 06/22/04 Tue
First, since you specifically asked about it, I would probably
recommend Deadwood. I really love the show, and only throw probably
in there because it is very rough. There is lots and lots and
lots of cursing, with some characters using a curse word more
or less every other word. I've never seen Oz, but I've heard from
some people who have that it pales in comparison to the language
used on Deadwood, so there's that. Deadwood also does a lot to
show why, despite how much fun it seems to be in the movies, noone
in their right mind would actually want to go live in the Wild
West.
If you can get past that, it is a great show. It is very well-plotted,
and has a number of interesting characters. It also deals a lot
with some of the topics focused on in the last few seasons of
BtVS and AtS, particularly whether it is all about power. The
closest thing to a main character on the show is Seth Bullock,
who is more or less the standard Western good guy. He is a former
US marshall, who moves to the illegal camp of Deadwood (which
is in Indian territory and thus not part of or protected by the
United States) to get out of the difficult job of being the law
in the Wild West and open a hardware store with his friend, Sol
Star. So he begins the series as a character with strong ideas
about right and wrong, yet a desire to stop being the guy who
is there to enforce those ideas, and also a dangerous temper to
complicate matters. The protrayl of his journey this season has
been a lot of fun. Meanwhile, the guy who originally seemed to
be the main bad guy, Al Swearengin, has had perhaps the most interesting
evolution of the series. He is the owner of the Gem Saloon, which
is like the one stop shop for vice in Deadwood, as well as being
something of a local crime boss running various road agents and
other illegal enterprises. He lives in a world in which power
really is everything, and you learn throughout the series that
he has more or less never met anyone, from his own mother on,
who actually believed in anything different. And yet he has turned
out to be quite the complicated character, and has even shown
some attraction towards a world with strong standards of right
and wrong. This is just a brief description of two major characters,
but there are literally dozens of others withint the Deadwood
world including some notable historical figures like Wild Bill
Hickock and Calamity Jane. So Deadwood really has a lot to offer,
along with a plot that moves quickly and is very enjoyable. I
would definitely recommend the show if you don't mind the sex,
violence, and very, very, very bad language. It's first season
has just ended, but you can probably find reruns on HBO throughout
the summer.
I enjoy Dead Like Me, though I probably would not recommend it
quite as strongly as Deadwood. It is a fun show, that somehow
manages to make death humorous and also has a lot of fun characters
played by capable actors. Chief among these is Mandy Patinkin
as Rube, the leader of the group of reapers. All-in-all it is
a well-written show that may not have the tremendously deep universe
of a BtVS, but otherwise presents some interesting discussions
of issues of life and death. It also succeeds in being funny and
enjoyable throughout, so you should catch it if you get a chance
and give it a try.
One show not on your list that I would recommend is Scrubs. It
is simply a hillarious show, and pretty much the only sitcom I
can take. It has great dialogue, great acting, and really there
is little bad I can say about it. Unlike other sitcoms, it also
has character development, and each episode has meaning because
they actually deal with issues in the growth of the characters
rather than just being about the humor. It also occassionally
treads into the dramatic, usually with surprisingly good results.
I would probably call Scrubs the BtVS of sitcoms, just for its
ability to not only excell at the standard aspects of the genre
but to also subvert them in various ways and thus take the entire
genre to a new level. So I would very strongly recommend it.
One final recommendation of a show on DVD is A&E's Nero Wolfe.
Nero Wolfe, if you don't know, is one of the more famous American
detectives created during a series of novels and stories by Rex
Stout from the 1930's to the 70's. The epnymous detective is a
fat, lazy genius who refuses to leave his home/office on business.
The legwork is left to the narrator of the books, Archie Goodwin,
who seems like he would fit better in a hardboiled detective novel.
One of the central appeals of the book is Archie's enjoyable and
wise-cracking narrative, so I would also recommend readin them
if you have a chance because only a small amount of it can filter
into the television show. Otherwise, the appeal of the series
is largely in the interaction between the very different personalities
of Wolfe and Archie, and the further interaction of these two
with the characters they meet in the course of their investigations.
One caveat is that although the Nero Wolfe mysteries belong more
to the old-fashioned, puzzle based form of say Sherlock Holmes
or Hercule Poirot, the way they actually play out reminds me more
of hardboiled mysteries, in that the challenge of the mystery
often seems more of an excuse to give the characters something
to do and get them moving around, commenting on various things,
and interacting with other characters. So don't go in to these
mysteries expecting, say, Agatha Christia style puzzles that make
you go "Aha!" at the end. Instead, simply sit back and
enjoy the characters and you won't be disappointed, particularly
because all of the major and recurring characters were cast perfectly,
from Timothy Hutton's Archie to Maury Chaukin's Wolfe to Bill
Smitrovich as their rival/ally Inspector Cramer. The DVDs of both
seasons are now available from A&E, and I strongly recommend
them.
What if Joss wrote Peanuts?
-- dmw, 15:50:58 06/19/04 Sat
Since Joss is going into an existing comic franchise, what would
happen if he started writing something a bit more classic, say
Peanuts? How would the Snoopy gang compare to the Scoobies?
Click here
and find out.
Replies:
[> OK, now that was just... -- OnM, 19:45:58 06/19/04
Sat
... all too likely.
[> [> I am making an icon of cartoon JW -- Ann, 20:16:49
06/19/04 Sat
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