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My highlights of the Vancouver Gathering -- Caroline, 16:51:41 06/10/03 Tue

[Taking a moment to bask..]

Warning: this post contains lots of gushing. Also some giddiness. Perhaps even some punchiness. Just put up with me for a few moments while I indulge myself. There is not one jot of exaggeration in this post and that the identities of the damned will be revealed! There were so many highlights that I cannot rank them, only relate them as they occur to me in my rather tired brain. But hopefully it will make you all so sorry that you didn't attend this event that you will sweat blood to be at the next one.

I was surprised yet not surprised by how intimate, comfortable and easy the whole meet was. Even though I'd only met a couple of the gatherers before, everyone was friendly, funny, open and warm from the start and it created a wonderful atmosphere.

Dub is the most incredible sweetheart you may ever wish to meet. I walked into a room on Friday night where most of the people were unknown to me. She took me under her wing, showed me her wonderful collage of photos and proceeded throughout the weekend to show much warmth, an impish sense of fun and ready sense of the ridiculous. Her wide command of vocabulary is also to be admired while we were MST3K'ing Buffy's tonsil-eating kissing style in Tabula Rasa, she came up with 'gustatory'.

Sara's smile its beauty and infectiousness rivals Rahael's. (btw: so sorry that I teased you with the whole red wine thing Graffiti I promise at the next meet to become a card-carrying member of the 'Get Graffiti Soused' Club).

Masq's modesty and unassuming nature concerning her great accomplishment in creating the website and discussion board. I would swear that she blushed when presented with the degree in Buffyology thanks to d'Herblay for doing all that. (And, she's a red wine gal yay!)

Fresne's fashion sense and improvisational dancing is as poetic as her lovely posts. I covet her velvet green/purple/gold outfit with the big sleeves yummy! (She's also a red wine gal!) We were in agreement that the lake scene in P&P, where Mr. Darby strips, dives in and emerges wet was hot.and if it wasn't for the repressive censorship of the Regency period, Jane Austen would have left that lost scene in her book! And Karen, fresne's flatmate, is definitely to be entrusted with procuring the red wine good picks Karen! Karen also gets kudos for the LPoA the leather pants of ambiguity very fetching!

LadyS was a true delight and incredibly hard worker she kept us all on track and looked ravishing in a dress the colour of starlight. She was truly worthy of the tiaras conferred upon her by Bit and I am grateful to have been allowed to briefly wear her morning tiara I would never have presumed to wear the evening one!

LittleBit the minute-taker of the gathering (TCH you will never live this down) is not only the Goddess of Chat, she is also a selfless, generous and funny person. She provided gifts for all, spending much time making them. She also provided a very post-modern experience of the gathering with many comments/events being immediately reflected and interpreted for her live journal! I also need to thank Bit and LadyS for saving me from shoe-buying. I saw a lovely shop on Robson St and both women steered me away cos they knew I had no room left in my luggage(grrrr, I hate both of you with the passion of a thousand suns...at the same time that I'm grateful for the save!)

Buffyboy deserves kudos for a/v duties above and beyond the call of geekdom. He provided his laptop, a cable to connect to the telly and DVDs for seasons 5 and 6 from Finland or Australia or somewhere like that and he was unfailingly patient with all our requests. Also, must mention the lovely afternoon we had in Stanley park and downtown Vancouver with Buffyboy and wife, Bit and LadyS. It was a lovely time and we had a lovely conversation, walk, dinner but we truly could have been anywhere and still had a lovely time. I will definitely drop in on you guys when I'm in Cali next.

d'Herblay was what I expected a scholarly, detached, ironic air and very witty. He saved me from a moment of blubbering self-pity. I was crying through The Body (the only television ep that can make me cry, not matter how many times I view it) and was feeling rather morose when he came over just after Anya's speech and asked me a rather silly fashion question something about the designer of my handbag, I think and it immediately rearranged my perspective and I burst out laughing. To quote someone in Steel Magnolias 'laughter through tears is my favourite emotion'!

Vancouver also deserves praise. It is a beautiful city the water, the mountains etc rivaling Sydney in my affections (but not quite toppling it - in my very biased estimation Vancouver does not outshine my home town). Other things that reminded me of Sydney was the multi-ethnic influx, the wonderful Asian food, the people were polite, helpful and cheerful, there is a great public transportation system, wonderful shopping and they have real candy!!!!! Smarties! Maltesers ! Flake! Oh, if only I'd found Cherry Ripes and Violet Crumbles! They even had Cadbury's chocolates! I hoarded up for my return to the States. The only thing that prevented me from emigrating immediately was the absence of Tim Tams and Arnott's biscuits!

The singalong to OMWF was great. Even better was the rather drunken second rendition of the musical with Bit, fresne, Karen, cjl and anom in the wee hours. It had more verve, passion and yes I will say it more feeling than the first one, due to the liberal application of alcoholic lubricants (at least on my part). And the subsequent discussion re: old musicals was amazing I bow before fresne and Bit's knowledge of the subject both broad and deep.

Other memories I will take away Scroll sitting intently in the front row right in front of the telly, not missing a moment of the action, the huge ego-trip when people said 'You've met Sol?', anom's buttons, cjl and fresne's t-shirts, the koi, the sleep deprivation, yummy Korean food with Sara and Scroll, the beautiful weather, the guns'n'stubble-Wes-lust, eating Godiva chocolates with LadyS, Bit and Scroll, and the wonderful getting-to-know so many people from the board. But underneath it all was a bittersweet feeling for all those who should have been at the event: Solitude1056, Anneth, Sophist, OnM, Random, Arethusa, Rahael, aliera, mamcu, fidhle, Dochawk, Rob, shadowkat, Sophie, HonorH, ponygirl, Wolfhowl33, Rhys, TCH.....

[> Seconding the kudos for Buffyboy -- Masq, 18:09:43 06/10/03 Tue

Media man extraordinaire.

Round of applause!!!

[> [> Thirding the kudos, and his wife is just so lovely! -- Scroll, 20:02:51 06/10/03 Tue

Thank you, Buffyboy! You totally made my weekend! I think I pretty much devoured his DVD collection. I sat in the front row, sometimes on the floor right in front of the TV if the first row was full up, and I just kept saying, "Um, can we watch another one? Maybe another? Okay, this is definitely the last one, I promise!"

And Wife of Buffyboy* was wonderful and so warm. She pretty much invited us to her home if ever we were in the area. I'm only sorry I couldn't walk around Stanley Park with all of you on Sunday and talk with her some more...

* Um, I do know her name, just not sure I should write it on the board...

[> [> [> I think the nomenclature goes -- Masq, 08:18:43 06/11/03 Wed

When in doubt, call them "Mrs. Buffyboy" or "Mr. Rufus". But only when in doubt!

[> We were there in our hearts--- -- mamcu, 19:04:12 06/10/03 Tue

And thanks to all of you for so much sharing of the good times. Reading makes us feel like we got to be part of it Really wanted to join you. Next year in ...Atlanta? Wherever!

[> [> Moonlight-rising Buffy con. -- kisstara, 10:21:53 06/11/03 Wed

The moonlight-rising Buffycon was fabulous! Amber Benson, James Marsters, Adam Busch, James Cleary and Tony Head were all there. They are a fun bunch of people. The convention center was O.K. but the rooms were not. The events, actors, and BTVS fans made up three fold for the setting and the Catskill Mountains were a gorgeous backdrop. I hope that I can meet up with the board members some day soon. I am still "high" from the con.

[> [> [> Moonlight Rising - A great grope story! -- Sara, happy for 6 degrees of separation with any part of ASH, 16:09:48 06/11/03 Wed

A friend of mine, who NYC posters met at 2 Boots, also went to the Moonlight Rising, and when a specific body part of Anthony Steward Head was auctioned off she chose to answer the knock of opportunity! I'll be posting the whole story when she gets it written up, and let me tell you - it's a good one!

[> [> [> [> He didn't by any chance just convert, did he? -- d'Herblay, 16:20:44 06/11/03 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> ROFL! -- dub ;o), 19:09:23 06/11/03 Wed

Now THAT would have been quite the Ebay auction!

[> [> [> [> [> All questions will be answered in time... -- Sara, smiling coyly, 20:07:20 06/11/03 Wed

It's wonderful how you can do anything on the Internet! I would have no idea how to smile coyly anywhere else...hmmm I wonder what other feminine wiles can be attempted...nah, even on the Internet I have no feminine wiles.

[> There was a solution.......buy more luggage.....;) -- Rufus, 22:23:12 06/10/03 Tue

People (fresne, Little Bit) have been kind enough to send me pics so I have a few of you smiling. I'm so glad our "real" candy makes you even more happy about the city.....I love Cadbury chocolate...;)

Because of this weekend I'm working about a time-share with Dub so she can have the magical hands of Mr.Rufus for neck rubs. I must also say that Mr. Rufus told me to pass on that he will keep an eye open for d'H.... The biggest laugh from Mr. Rufus was when I told him that some people thought I actually KNEW something about computers...thank god I have in house tech- support.

Lady Starlight deserves a tiara with the real thing in it...diamond that is. Buffyboy (who I have pics of)kept making me think of one word dignity. d'H needs his own show for the window performance alone, I found myself having a few depends moments that evening. cjl has more energy than the Energizer bunny on speed. Little Bit was more fun than a naked shower. Caroline has keen fashion sense and not enough luggage to hold it all, plus is just a bit evil..;) Scroll is a delight. anom has to tell us all if she will ever use the Buffy soap she found (gee Buffy is everywhere). I have a pic of fresne's gams! Oh, and Masquerade is not Rufus and Rufus is not Masquerade.....

I have to mention Masquerade who is the reason for us all being together on and off the board. Without her work and patience where else could be go to have so much fun.

[> [> Thanks, Ruf! -- Masq, 08:22:18 06/11/03 Wed

It was much fun meeting you and Mr. Rufus and chatting with you at dinner Friday night!

So nice to have faces to put with the names!

[> [> As soon as I posted I knew I'd forget something.... -- Caroline, 09:14:19 06/11/03 Wed

and one of the things I forgot was my amazement that our great spoiler-queen is technologically incapacitated. I still can't figure out how you get the scoops before anyone else but hats off to you!

[> Oh, thank you, Sweetie! -- dub ;o), 23:40:23 06/10/03 Tue

Now...if only I could sing...

;o)

[> Vancouver Gathering burbalage -- fresne, 07:47:40 06/11/03 Wed

Yes, I expected it to be fun. I just had no idea how easy and comfortable and effulgent the whole thing would be. During the first OMwF sing-a-long, I half way expected to burst like a ripe fruit, glowing happily. To transubstantiate into someone who can sing. During the second sing, several bottles of red wine served that function admirably.

I want to list everyone's names and repeat all the things that others have said because I want to hold onto the weekend.

I want to thank the hotel for having a tray of American sliced cheese as part of the hamburger buffet. And I want to thank everyone who ignored their mothers and did in fact play with their food. I'm just sorry that I couldn't steal that cake for you from the larger, but much less interesting golf conference.

The languorous lounging discussion of musicals was incredible. Little Bit, oh, my god, another Fredite. And yes Caroline, Mr. Darcy, hubba, hubba, hubba. The way great works of literature were meant to be.

I want to thank Caroline and d'Herblay for their steadfast support of the whole, we need alcohol concept. Yes, beer and wine are food. I'd fall in the with the whole corrupt Graffiti crowd, but as a wine girl, ummmwell, a nice red with hints of spice, bramble and a lush smooth mouthfeel, may not come across on the first ever sip of wine. And since, I'm morally opposed to White Zinfandel, I'm sorry. I'm not sure I can help there.

The only sad thing was dragging myself to work on Monday morning groaning, "Sleep bank, depleted. Errrm"

And eeeppp, I need to go to work, but I want to keep typing. Thank you Wisewoman, Lady Starlight for all of your work. Buffyboy for all the wise and wonderful AV work. Thank you Masq for having the board that gathered the people that made the gathering possible. Scroll, what did we all end up writing on your scroll? Anom, what did people write in the book? Cjl, dude, you are like the energizer bunny. And Sara and Darby and our lurkers, hey look lurkers exist in the wild and here they are and, and, and,

Gosh, you guys, you're all so beautiful. Especially in the beanie of wisdom.

[> [> A round of applause for Lady Starlight! -- Masq, 08:28:57 06/11/03 Wed

Thanks for pulling this together and may wings alight your Visa bill and send it floating away on gossamer clouds!

(OK, gotta stop taking inspiration from fresne posts....)

[> [> [> Huh, the funny thing about that... -- fresne, 09:14:16 06/11/03 Wed

Is the similarity to the line that occurred to me after reading the In-flight magazine.

"She dreamed of stained glass butterfly wings. Red and green and blue and gold and light to carry her away. Breezy drift high above the city. Float her to where she could daisy nectar sip and the mountain grasses caress." Which is really germane to nothing.

Hmm...on gossamer Visa wings flap. Flap Visa, flap. Caw. Caw. Caw.

I just hope our lady of the Stars has no difficulties with all those "furin" checks. May all our money swift in gracious direction flow. That all that may remain are not bills, but memories. And some really nifty tiaras.

[> [> Agreed- you can't give little people wine -- Tchaikovsky, 09:00:10 06/11/03 Wed

As much as anything, it's a waste. Cheap European lager's the job, or Somerset cider. Bland, intoxicating and not wasteful of stuff for the grown-ups. Oooh, I've just pretended to be a grown-up. That will never pass...

TCH- another Red Wine person who would have had no trouble at the Last Supper...

[> [> [> Oh no, it's a good idea -- KdS, 07:08:56 06/12/03 Thu

Personal experience - I was given wine at a very early age and was so disgusted that I didn't experiment with alcohol afterwards until I'd reached an age where I could handle it.

[> [> anyone mind my telling what you wrote? -- anom, 19:10:14 06/11/03 Wed

"Anom, what did people write in the book?"

Not that any of it seemed that personal or embarrassing, but just in case, I'm gonna hold off until I hear if it's OK or not. Except in your case, Fresne--if you're asking, it must be OK w/you, right?

Fresne wrote: "It's been great meeting, re-meeting, chatting, laughing, and having a great bloody time."

For people wondering what the hell we're talking about, LittleBit has this strange habit of bringing presents to meets. At this meet it was the Buffy/Angel-themed CD-ROM others have described. At the DC meet, it was a novelty diary called Vampires: The Journal. The rubbery cover is molded to show fingers reaching around a coffin lid from the inside, beginning to open it. I brought it to the meet to get people to sign it (in red, of course!).

And now I'm kicking myself because I had the thing in my backpack in the meet room Saturday night & forgot all about it! Several posters left that night or early the next morning, so I missed getting Dub, Rufus, d'Herblay, & the entire Darby/Sara/Kieron family to sign it! Argghh! I ended up w/8 signatures, taking up 2 sides of 1 page...out of at least 50. Obviously, I'm gonna have to take the book to every meet I go to, & we're gonna have to have a lot of 'em! Oh, well...at least no one wrote, "Have a good summer!" @>)

And Fresne, I want to express my appreciation of your cake- stealing efforts even if they didn't succeed & to say that I'm entirely with you on the red wine sí/white zinf no, the fun of the late-night dance movie discussion & 2nd singalong, & the "all so beautiful." Oh yeah.

[> I was an ego trip? -- Solitude1056, 08:57:58 06/11/03 Wed

Yikes.

[> Pictures from the Vancouver meet! -- Masq, 09:34:01 06/11/03 Wed

At least the first set of them, more to come later.

Here.

[> [> Very nice, folks. -- CW, 10:21:29 06/11/03 Wed

It took a couple of reports before I was sure people weren't just exaggerating about LS having tiaras. Glad we get to see one!

Looks like dub's beanie was a huge hit. And everybody looks like they were having such fun. You guys even made a little space for the cheese... Now, I'm jealous again. ;o)

[> [> OMG, I'm a TV addict! Somebody stop me! -- Scroll, 11:29:12 06/11/03 Wed

Thanks for the pics, Masq. I'll send mine as soon as I've got them developed. Maybe I can even convince my sister to scan them on her nifty new scanner (she can be possessive about her new toys) and send them to you like that.

[> [> [> Ask for a photo CD! -- dub ;o), 13:19:26 06/11/03 Wed

That's what I do when I get 'em developed. It's not expensive and you can just copy them right onto your hard drive from the cd if you want. Takes too much fiddling to scan them, IMNSHO!

dub ;o)

[> [> Actually, Rufus and Caroline have no power to keep you from posting their pictures! -- Dochawk, 17:10:40 06/11/03 Wed

And their refusal makes us want to see them even more!!! So no more Ms. Nice Guy Masq!

[> [> [> Unlike SOME people, I'm pOLite.... -- Masq, 18:06:22 06/11/03 Wed

Until given a reason not to be.

Mwah hah hah.

Actually, there's a picture of the back of Caroline's head that was OK'd for internet post-age. Hasn't been sent to me yet, though.

[> [> [> [> Doc....don't make me send Mr Rufus after you....<g>......;):):):):) -- Rufus, 19:59:38 06/11/03 Wed

[> [> [> Only the power of respect and amity, Doc. Thanks for that Masq. -- Caroline, 08:30:36 06/12/03 Thu

[> Re: Thanks, Caroline! -- aliera, 19:39:27 06/11/03 Wed

Your's and everyone's notes, etc on the Gathering are so wonderful. It's amusing that you mentioned bittersweet because that's the word I've been thinking as I've been reading (and my favorite chocolate also... please don't get me started on red wine!) But even though we couldn't be there...I thought of you all often over the weekend and I'm so glad you had such a lovely time. :-)

completely OT: Witches -- leslie, 18:00:32 06/10/03 Tue

I think I may have mentioned that I am writing a book about witches this summer. It's called From Witch to Wicca, and it will be a look at, not so much what real witches and Wiccans did/do, but the idea of witches and Wiccans in the popular imagination. So, naturally, the grand finale will be a discussion of witches in movies and television, and how could I do anything but culminate with Willow?

Anyway, if any of you lovely and thoughtful people have opinions you would like to share about witches and Wiccans in contemporary popular English-speaking culture, please e-mail me (lejones@ucla.edu). It doesn't have to be about Willow alone. I would be especially interested in the opinions of practicing Wiccans and other pagans. If you say something so brilliant that I simply MUST quote you directly, I will contact you for permission; if you would prefer to be anonymous, just say so and I will respect your wishes. I know this topic has come up in the past on the board, but I don't want to just mine the archives without people's permission.

[> Only opinion I can think of . . . -- Finn Mac Cool, 20:52:27 06/10/03 Tue

(and it's probably a pretty obvious one)

. . . is that "Good Witches" are portrayed more akin to humanity than "Bad Witches".

Occasionally, "Good Witches" are portrayed as angelic (see Glinda of the North), but more often they are supposed to be regular people who happen to have superpowers (Sabrina, the Charmed Ones, the girls in "Practical Magic"). Meanwhile, "Bad Witches" seem hardly human at all; certainly there rarely seems to be human motivation behind them. Sometimes they are portrayed as horribly ugly and disfigured (the Wicked Witch of the West, the Queen from "Snow White"), but, even when they appear fairly normal, they are treated more as demonic creatures than corrupt or evil people (particularly on the TV show "Charmed", where evil witches/warlocks seem barely any different from demons; they're servants of the greater evil, they each have their special powers, and often burn up into nothingness when they die).

Oh, also, the word witch is now often being used for both males and females, while warlock is generally reserved for "Bad Witches" (most likely because it derives from "oath breaker").

[> Desperately thinking of something brilliant... -- ponygirl, 20:52:40 06/10/03 Tue

Okay that ain't gonna happen... but coming off several hours with my s4 dvds I was actually thinking about the portrayal of Wiccans. Joss made several comments about Willow/Tara and magic, mentioning their sensuality and earthiness. It's interesting that the idea of a greater connection to the physical body and to the earth now reads as good, while a hundred or so years ago it would have been just the opposite. In any case BtVS seemed to have a line between natural magic and a more artificial ego-driven type, and one was definitely of the good and the other of the bad. Why is nature seen as good? It's about balance certainly, but I can't think of anything more amoral than the natural world.

And is the idea of the good witch/Wiccan just another version of the wise Native American, or the Eastern mystic - the cliche of the spiritual, natural, and definitely exotic figure who seems to exist only to guide a hero to spiritual awareness, destiny, or just increased coolness? The Wiccan combo of magic, nature and above all the feminine seems to create an irresistable Other package.

Anyhoo, I must get to bed, but it sounds like a great idea for a book, leslie. I really enjoyed your Tolkien one!

[> Hi Leslie -- dub ;o), 23:33:08 06/10/03 Tue

I'm basically posting to keep this thread alive until tomorrow, when I'll be more awake and can answer more clearly. Certainly anything you find of mine that discusses witchcraft/Wicca in the archives you are welcome to use.

I remember discussing at great length the fact that witches in the Buffyverse are definitely not practising as modern realverse Wiccans and perhaps that's why the show always refers to them as "Wiccas" rather than "Wiccans." Just the fact that Willow and Tara celebrate Hallowe'en by dressing up and giving out candy, rather than participating in Samhain rituals...y'know, I don't think they ever even referred to any of the Wiccan holy days by name!

Also, of course, there's the issue of Willow performing spells that affect other people, often without their knowledge or consent. That just flies in the face of the Wiccan Rede and the Threefold Law. I know many neo-Pagans consider them passe, but hey, that's how I was taught and they've always stood me in good stead when I was in doubt about what to go for.

I'll try to think of more to say tomorrow, but somewhere I know I've written up a little blurb on my personal experience with paganism and Wicca, that I can send you if you're interested. Let me know.

Cheers,
dub;o)

[> [> Re: Hi Leslie -- leslie, 09:29:04 06/11/03 Wed

Yes, I'd love to read your blurb on paganism! (I would have e- mailed you directly, but I'm answering here to keep the thread going!)

[> Psychology and Spell Casting -- Haecceity, 10:49:57 06/11/03 Wed

Leslie,

Neat idea-you just get to write all the cool books, don'tcha? I don't know if any of this might be of use, but in working through the creation of a character for a graphic novel I'm working on, I started looking at the psychological underpinnings of spell casting (I know, you're all shocked. Imagine me, looking up Jung ;), trying to understand why people would develop such rituals and what purpose they may serve psychologically. I'm beginning to wonder if "witchcraft" was an early form of self-psychology.

Maybe this is why witchcraft has become acceptable to the mainstream as of late-some might argue that it can be defined as another method of meditation or therapy. For an interesting example of this, look at Terry Pratchett's Granny Weatherwax character and her practice of "headology". Actually, I find Pratchett's portrayals of witches as the practitioners of incredibly *practical* magic rather profound beneath the hilarity of personality-also speaks to modern day popular notions of witch-ness, I suppose.

I've got a few notes on the psychological ritual of spell- casting lying around if you'd like to read them, though it sounds as if it might be too much "what witches do" rather than "what witches are".

As far as perceptions of witches, have you looked at some of the Halloween images from the turn-of-the-century to the 30's- 40's (postcards, decorations, etc.)? There are some fairly interesting things going on in terms of graphic representation and the whole explosion of American interest in Halloween, there.

Good luck with your research!

---Haecceity

P.S. Is it too early to put my pre-order in at Amazon? :)

[> [> Re: Psychology and Spell Casting -- dub ;o), 13:04:44 06/11/03 Wed

Maybe this is why witchcraft has become acceptable to the mainstream as of late-some might argue that it can be defined as another method of meditation or therapy.

Exactly! When it comes right down to it, the sort of concentration required to "cast a spell" is similar, if not identical, to that used in creative visualization and prayer and, some might say, fills the same purpose.

dub ;o)

[> [> [> Interesting minor reference -- KdS, 03:42:55 06/12/03 Thu

There's a series of medical hard-SF novels, collectively titled Sector General, by James White about a far-future inter- species space hospital. The last few novels, in particular Code Blue-Emergency, feature a character from an alien civilisation where psychology and psychotherapy are entirely conceptualised in terms of magic - references to "wizards" casting "spells" with (not on) patients and so forth. Might be influenced by hard-science suspicions about the questionable scientific underpinning of psychotherapeutic concepts, but psychotherapy is treated with considerable respect in the serious, so it isn't just bashing. Probably not worth reading the books in detail, but it might be a nice little background reference.

[> [> Re: Psychology and Spell Casting -- leslie, 15:05:07 06/11/03 Wed

I'd love to see your stuff on psychology and spell-casting! After all, the one thing people seem to be pretty much in agreement on is that witches cast spells, but there's some degree of disagreement over what exactly a spell is, what it's supposed to do, and how it's supposed to work. Also, I don't think most real-world spells are accompanied by the kind of special effects we see in movies and tv--where does that come from? How does it contrast with reality? So many questions! So many topics! I'm gonna go nuts trying to cover it all.

[> [> [> Give me a chance to gather my notes and they're yours! -- Haecceity, 14:01:25 06/12/03 Thu

Might take a couple days--my place is a bit of a whirlwind at the moment. Though it sounds as if you've got quite a bit on your plate already!

---Haecceity

[> Re: completely OT: Witches -- s'kat, 19:24:25 06/11/03 Wed

I'm by no means an expert or knowledgable on this, leslie, but if you find any post or essay of mine on atpo or on www.geocities.com/shadowkatbtvs - feel free to use it.
I think I did write something last year called A Tale of Three Witches - which I corrected to fit what several online posters told me. Don't know how much use it would be.

Good luck.

SK

completely OT: Witches -- leslie, 18:00:32 06/10/03 Tue

I think I may have mentioned that I am writing a book about witches this summer. It's called From Witch to Wicca, and it will be a look at, not so much what real witches and Wiccans did/do, but the idea of witches and Wiccans in the popular imagination. So, naturally, the grand finale will be a discussion of witches in movies and television, and how could I do anything but culminate with Willow?

Anyway, if any of you lovely and thoughtful people have opinions you would like to share about witches and Wiccans in contemporary popular English-speaking culture, please e-mail me (lejones@ucla.edu). It doesn't have to be about Willow alone. I would be especially interested in the opinions of practicing Wiccans and other pagans. If you say something so brilliant that I simply MUST quote you directly, I will contact you for permission; if you would prefer to be anonymous, just say so and I will respect your wishes. I know this topic has come up in the past on the board, but I don't want to just mine the archives without people's permission.

[> [> Re: Hi Leslie -- leslie, 09:29:04 06/11/03 Wed

Yes, I'd love to read your blurb on paganism! (I would have e- mailed you directly, but I'm answering here to keep the thread going!)

Darla, The Master, and Angel-- this thread is a spin off of the WttH thread -- Q, 19:21:07 06/10/03 Tue

I have been re-watching all of the episodes, and posting my thoughts as I watch. This is from my notes on the episode "Angel":

One problem doesn't work for me: The relationship between the Master and Angel. The Master says things like "Angel-I miss him! He was the most ferocious beast I have ever seen" and "But to lose her to Angel! He was to sit at my right hand come the day!". These phrases do not jive with what we have seen later in the shows. When we see Master flashbacks on Angel, Angel and the Master feud every time they see each other, show each other no respect, and just generally hate each other. The Master acts like Angel is nothing to him, a phase for Darla, a "stallion". All I'm asking for in this little rant is a future episode on Angel featuring the Master, so we can see how their relationship went from where it was in "Darla" to where the Master felt it should be in "Angel". I hope the ME writers give us that soon!!!!

I post this now because I noticed a lot of people having a hard time with Darla's personality and relationship with the Master in WttH as I skimmed the posts. This reinforces my belief that next year on Angel we NEED to see some flashbacks that show a)like I said above-- How the Master and Angel get from where their relationship is in the ep. "Darla" to where it is in the ep. "Angel, and b) What happens to Darla in the same time frame- - we know a lot about Darla from when she meets the Master until she leaves with Angel, and from her reincarnation until Connors birth, but we know nothing about her for the multiple "lifetimes" her and Angel are apart after he gains a soul.

Let's start a campaign to see this stuff, to clear up some seemingly off-continuity issues! How about ep. 7 next year. (maybe we could see how Spike and Dru fit into the Master equation too, huh?)

[> Maybe he was just inconsistent? -- Vickie, 19:25:26 06/10/03 Tue

I could believe the Master hated Angelus when he came into the fold so snarky and anti-authority. Even more so when he left with Darla, one of the Master's favorites.

Maybe as Angelus and Darla cut their swath of destruction across Europe, the Master adopted Angelus from afar in admiration of his talents?

Harder for me to understand is why Darla and the Master call him Angel and not Angelus.

I think we're probably out of luck with ME looking backwards on AtS this year. They'll be looking forwards, inventing their new show called Angel.

Click inside for a link to a spoilery James Marsters interview with some news about AtS S5 -- RadiusRS, 19:40:26 06/11/03 Wed

http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20030610-010116-3263r

[> Actually not that spoilery since JM has zip idea what they'll do -- s'kat, 22:21:42 06/11/03 Wed

Remember JM doesn't know his character's story arc, so anything he says in interviews or at con's is solely his own personal opinion and has absolutely no relevance on what is written on the show. He actually says as much in the interview.

Proof? This is the guy who thought Spike was a pick-pocket as a human,
was NEVER going to get a soul, NEVER going to sleep with or have sex with Buffy, and Never going to get redeemed.
So it's safe to say...he'll probably be as shocked, possibly more shocked than we are at what the writers decide. (Actually more, since I knew about the soul he did - LOL!)

It is an interesting interview though. But really not any more spoilery than our own speculation about S5 on this board.

[> [> Joss is pretty good about fooling the actors, isn't he? -- CW, 10:13:42 06/12/03 Thu

In the first season SMG was positive she and Joss had agreed that Buffy would never sleep with Angel.

[> He's 40?! -- Ray, 02:25:10 06/12/03 Thu

He looks excellent for his age. I would've guessed early 30's.

[> [> shocking isn't it... -- Alison, 07:37:49 06/12/03 Thu

..he's really 40. I think he looks..well, late 20s now, last year, early twenties. But apparently to look that way, he has to REALLY watch what he eats..I recently read an interveiw with him when he said he's always hungry. I felt really bad...and some what responsible. After all, I am one of the people who loves to drool over his perfect body!

[> [> Re: He's 40?... Hmmm, I smell ageism here -- rowena, 08:54:44 06/12/03 Thu

Just how is a 40-year-old man supposed to look?!! People in their 40s are not necessarily decrepit. Especially in today's world.

[> [> [> Re: Hmmm, I smell ageism here -- Ray, 12:23:29 06/12/03 Thu

Not ageism. Just impressed. If you look at him and David Boreanaz, you wouldn't think they were 10 years apart.

[> [> [> [> Gotcha... good point. :o) -- Rowena, feeling oh so youthful, 14:12:55 06/12/03 Thu

[> Derick Jacobi! *Derick Jacobi!!* -- Anneth, bouncing up and down, 08:41:59 06/12/03 Thu

hee! Imagine, Spike and Brother Cadfael in love!

(sighs wistfully) I've been in love with DJ since I first watched I, Claudius, over ten years ago.

[> [> Ummm...I think it would be sexier if it was Sean Bean -- Caroline, 08:47:55 06/12/03 Thu

whom I've had a bit of a crush on since he appeared in the Sharpe series - talk about sexy wounds!

[> [> [> hee.... -- Anneth, getting a little punchy, 09:01:21 06/12/03 Thu

Spike + Boromir 4eva!

It's all too delicious to contemplate this early in the morning... But, what an interesting choice of actors all the way around!

"Hot Town, Summer in the City": First Thoughts About Summer 2003 NYC Meet -- cjl, 20:58:58 06/10/03 Tue

I know, I just left the Vancouver Board Meet. I can't help it, though--I wanted it to go on forever. I wanted more of a chance to talk with D'Herb, Bit, Dub, Buffyboy, Masq, Rufus, Fresne, Caroline and Scroll. Not to mention pick up on previous conversations with Darby, Sara, Anom and Graffiti (sorry, no beer for you, young man).

So I'm planning my own Board Meet. Hot fun in the summertime in NYC. Many tourist attractions within walking distance or subway ride. Lunch at at a fine restaurant. Free music. [Dracula hypnoglare] Youuuuu wiiiill coooome.

First, before I give you folks the possible dates, I want to tell you about an amazing musical event at the Prospect Park Bandshell in Brooklyn (about nine blocks up from my apartment) on June 28th. It's a tribute to Canadian poet/songwriter Leonard Cohen, with Rufus and Martha Wainwright, Kate and Anna MacGarrigle, Linda and Teddy Thompson, and Marc Ribot leading the house band. It would have been my first choice for our post-meal music event, but June 28th is simply too soon after the Vancouver Meet--and besides, I'm organizing a group from one of my various other lives to go to this concert. (Wouldn't be fair to ask you folks to come down to Brooklyn, then wind up splitting my time.) OTOH, if enough of you scream "Are you kidding me? That's PERFECT!", I might have to change my mind....

Anyway, my top two choices are:

#1: Saturday, July 26th. The Prospect Park Bandshell has a festival of African music from 2:00 - 9:00 p.m. We can eat at Two Boots (on 2nd st. and 7th Avenue, just like last time), then walk up and catch whatever's left of the show. (Lineup of artists available upon request.)

#2: Saturday, April 9th or Sunday April 10th in Manhattan. Lincoln Center Outdoors is holding their annual "Roots of American Music" series with dozens of artists from both blues and folk, with headliners this year including James Cotton and (personal fave) Christine Lavin. However, if jazz is more your cup of java jive, Sonny Rollins (merely the greatest tenor saxophone player on the face of the Earth) will be at the Central Park Summerstage on April 9th. I can set us up at a restaurant on the Upper West Side before the concert....

OR we could bring our own food, and have a picnic on the Great Lawn. Play some D&D. People can split off and go to museums. Whatever.

Again, all the music listed above is FREE. (Yeah, "suggested donations" are mentioned, but don't let them guilt you. That's why they have outrageously expensive benefit concerts.)

Let me know what you want to do, and we'll do it. Because we're just that kind of board, dammit.

J.

[> Uhm...April??? Isn't that a bit far away to plan? -- s'kat, 21:23:53 06/10/03 Tue

[> [> Whoops. Make that AUGUST 9th and 10th. -- cjl, 21:46:31 06/10/03 Tue

[> Whatever everyone else decides, I'm game. -- Rob (who is NEVER meeting another board meet again!), 22:40:27 06/10/03 Tue

[> [> AAARGH!! Should be never MISSING another board meet....not meeting. -- Sleepy!Rob, 22:48:21 06/10/03 Tue

[> Re: "Hot Town, Summer in the City": First Thoughts About Summer 2003 NYC Meet -- Darby, 13:08:00 06/11/03 Wed

The Evil Spawn's Bar Mitsvah is August 9th, so between that and Sara's planned nervous breakdown to follow, we won't be available that weekend. Gee, does everyone want to come to a bar mitzvah? Nah, didn't think so...

All of these ideas sound good, though. We could also do a Manhattan Museum trek as a group - nothing like a bunch of people with opinions wandering amongst the objets, right- ? And as the spouse of a museum afficionado (or is it -nada?), I can tell you that there's a scarily long list to choose from.

There's probably a cheese museum. I study the cheese...

[> "Rainy Town, Summer in the Exurbs": First Thoughts About Summer 2003 Rust Belt Meet -- d'Herblay, 16:04:49 06/11/03 Wed

Rahael will be in Cleveland between the 13th and the 28th of June. There have been some who have expressed interest in meeting her (and her kinda hot boyfriend), so I am hereby accepting suggestions for some sort of general Rust Belt/Midwest/Northeast/Great Lakes meeting, somewhere within a day's drive from Cleveland, ideally held on the 21st or 22nd of June.

Any suggestions will be considered. Any interest will be reciprocated.

[> [> I want to meet Rahael!!!!! -- Sara, sobbing hopelessly..., 16:13:31 06/11/03 Wed

but I can't get to Cleveland that weekend! Waaahhhh!

[> [> [> Re: -- aliera, 18:15:13 06/11/03 Wed

How about the mountain coming to Sara? er Albany? er well hopefully you get it.... and there's always Amtrak... the schedules ungodly... er voynakish but you wouldn't have to drive...

[> [> [> [> Re: whoops -- aliera, 19:26:38 06/11/03 Wed

...I should mention that this really isn't selfishly motivated. Although we're near Albany too (and goes without saying we would love to meet Rahael), I don't know that I could actually because of mucho overtime during June... it would depend on the timing of things... OK, shushing back up and butting back out now. ;-)

[> [> [> [> Albany is a lovely city, a charming place, you'd love it, really you would -- Sara, who can't think of any place better to go than Albany, 20:14:30 06/11/03 Wed

It has sights, it has sounds, it has food, it has drink, it is the must see place of the summer! No, don't shuffle off to Buffalo, come to Albany! aliera is full of wisdom, much, much wisdom!

[> [> [> Re: I want to meet Rahael!!!!! -- MaeveRigan, 09:35:09 06/12/03 Thu

Dash it! So do I, but I can't get to any of these places this summer. How sad is that? [sob!]

Rahael--and all of you--have not lived until you've visited the land of evil preachers, the Southeast.

Triangle-area ATP folk, shouldn't we do something about this? Possibly during a less humid time of the year?

[> [> Re: Cleveland has a hellmouth --Oh, Steam! Pretty! -- Brian, 20:52:53 06/11/03 Wed

Would love to meet you and Rah. Keep me in the loop

[> [> "All This Energy Calling Me/Back Where It Comes From" -- cjl, 22:15:37 06/11/03 Wed

Cleveland Rocks.

I have a very dear friend in Cleveland, and I keep promising her I'll visit. A local board meet might be a good excuse. I could even bring her along (and her husband--if he's willing to tolerate hour upon hour of unrelenting Buffy-ness.)

D'Herb, am seriously considering the Rust Belt counterproposal.

Hmm...

[> [> [> Not a counter-proposal! A complementary proposal -- d'Herblay, 22:33:57 06/11/03 Wed

I may very well make my way to any New York meet in July; but Rah will only be here in June.

[> [> [> [> Any way you can bring Rah down in June? -- s'kat (who still can't afford to go anywhere out of NYC), 10:21:57 06/12/03 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> I suppose it can happen -- d'Herblay, 11:10:07 06/12/03 Thu

I suppose Rah and I could hop onto I-80 and get to New York in about 9 hours. Might be the thing to do. However, we're already committed to seeing people in Ohio, so that's even more administrative detail to work out. And I'm also trying to figure out how to get Rah and Scroll together. I guess we might just drive across the Eastern US/Canada endlessly until we've met everyone, but that's a lot of time for me to spend behind the wheel.

I'm game, though.

[> Away during August dates, but July 26 is good -- Dariel, 18:43:22 06/11/03 Wed

Taking part of my hard-earned vacation, beginning August 9 in Cape Cod (featuring cook-outs, poker, Reiki, channeling, and hey--maybe we'll even spend some time at the beach. Yes, I have an odd group of friends!)

BTW, thanks for the info. on June 28. Sounds like a great concert!

[> Re: "Hot Town, Summer in the City": First Thoughts About Summer 2003 NYC Meet -- anom, 19:43:51 06/11/03 Wed

Ditto on wanting the meet to go on forever! It really helped stave off the withdrawal pains from the series' ending. Only now, I'm in double withdrawal--from Buffy & from the meet! choke, sniffle

The only cure is more board meets! But Saturdays in Brooklyn won't work for me--otherwise you'd indeed be hearing "are you kidding me?" (BTW, sometimes mixing different groups works out- -the sf-fan friends & the aikido friends I once invited to the same party hit it off just fine.) I might be able to come down to Central Park Summerstage (especially for Sonny Rollins! I've never heard him live!) after services; I'd probably arrive after 2:30 & would appreciate knowing a specific spot to meet. Hell, I may just do that even if nobody else from the board comes! And then the Lincoln Ctr. "Roots" concert the next day!

[> Re: "Hot Town, Summer in the City": First Thoughts About Summer 2003 NYC Meet -- Sophie, 12:22:10 06/12/03 Thu

I think having a meet this summer in NYC would be fun. I'm all for doing stuff in Brooklyn, especially free stuff :D

^pEver see the original pilot? -- Ray, 06:39:53 06/11/03 Wed

I downloaded it from Kazaa. It's a 20 minute version of Welcome to the Hellmouth, without the Master, Luke, Angel, or the Harvest story.
It's Buffy meeting Xander, Giles, and Willow (different actress). The fights are low budget with practically no stunts, but the Xander/Buffy scene where they're walking around talking about the school is great.

[> We watched it in Vancouver! -- Masq, 07:00:46 06/11/03 Wed

The vampire dusting was pretty hokey, and the sets were limited, but the basic dialogue and idea of "WttH/The Harvest" was there.

Although Giles delivering lines while spinning around down a spiral staircase was a bit awkward. ; )

Anyone know where the interior shots were filmed? Was that Torrance High on the inside?

[> [> OT to Masq - did you get my e-mail re. the Round Robin? -- Marie, 08:48:40 06/11/03 Wed

If not, it was just to as you to re-post the thread, please!

Marie

[> [> [> It's down there on the main page -- Masq, 09:30:37 06/11/03 Wed

I'll scootch it up to the top, if you want.

[> [> Just curious, Masq... -- Rob, 09:35:23 06/11/03 Wed

Was the copy of the pilot you watched from one of the NY posters? Because if it was, then I was even more there in spirit than I thought, since I gave copies of the pilot to everybody at the last meet!

Rob

[> [> [> Not certain -- Masq, 09:51:51 06/11/03 Wed

Perhaps the culprit will reveal themselves.

[> [> [> [> It was indeed! -- d'Herblay, 11:35:58 06/11/03 Wed

It was cjl's copy of Rob's gift, which made me almost as mad about missing the Two Boots meet as the pie. Buffyboy glommed the file onto his hard disk, but I wasn't so good with the thinkies. I also missed my opportunity to rip fres's Music For Elevators onto my MP3 player.

This is why we need to get going on the 2004 Gathering: I need time to organize all the copyright violations!

[> [> [> [> [> Heh heh! -- Rob, 12:54:07 06/11/03 Wed

And glad to hear that I was able to bring something to the meet, even though I wasn't. ;o)

Rob

[> we saw it -- gillie, 07:30:40 06/11/03 Wed

and i am SO thankful they brought on AH instead. the energy differential between the two incarnations of willow is radical, to say the least.

Graduation Day, Part I: The Musical -- Rob, 13:10:09 06/11/03 Wed

Last year, I saw the brilliantly funny but unfortunately short- lived off-Broadway musical, "Bat Boy: the Musical," which is a musical about a sweet boy raised by a family in a quaint mountain town. Only problem? Um, he's half-boy, half-bat. Big deal! ;o)

Anyway, I would recommend the soundtrack to everybody here, especially musical theatre enthusiasts, because of the way it so deftly parodies different musical genres, most prominently Andrew Lloyd's Webber's pompous, overblown rock operas.

Listening to it again last night, I noticed how perfectly this next song parallels Buffy and Angel's scene in "Graduation Day" where Buffy argued with Angel about allowing him to drink from her. In this scene, Bat Boy's girlfriend, Shelley, offers her blood to him, so that he may live. The song can be used for B/A without changing almost any lyrics, which is pretty cool. It's called "Inside Your Heart," and it's very, very funny.

"Inside Your Heart"

Shelley: It's okay.
I'm still here.
Your secret's out, but don't fear.
'Cause I don't care what people say.
Once I thought you were weird;
But soon my doubts disappeared.
I think you're normaller than they!
Now you're scared;
You're in need;
Clearly someone has to bleed.
I'll repay all you gave--
I will give you what you crave.
Let me prove I love you,
Let me become part of you.
I see no better what to start:
I'll always live inside your heart.

Bat Boy: You don't know what you're saying

Shelley: (overlap) Yes, I do--

Bat Boy: Go on, go home, forget me--

Shelley: (overlap) It's for you--

Bat Boy: I'll hurt you, I'm not playing. Please don't--

Shelley; (overlap) No, I knew that when I--

Bat Boy: Please don't let me--

Shelley: (overlap) Let me--

Bat Boy: No!

Shelley: (overlap) I want to, please--

Bat Boy: Please!

Shelley: Yes!

Bat Boy: No, it's too bizarre!
Just go!

Shelley: (overlap) Just--
I'm not afraid.
It's no disease...
It's who you are!

Bat Boy: It murders everything I touch!
A screaming fire will fill you.
You'll beg me please to kill you.
I could not let you be my curtch.
Oh, God, I feel my hunger grow--
Go! Go on, go home, forget me...

Shelley: No!
Such a lovely boy.
Look at what you've done to me.
Woke me up and set me free,
Just look at me.
Such a lovely boy.
This way you'll be mine at last.
And I'll be fine--I heal real fast!
So look at me...
Look at me!

Bat Boy: You don't know what you're saying...

Shelley: Shut up. That's it, I'm staying!

Both: I will shield you from harm,
Come spend your life on my arm.
I see no better way to start.
Let me prove I love you.
Let me become part of you.
Now we shall never be apart.
I'll always live inside...
Your heart!!!!!!!!!!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Some lines, such as "I heal real fast!" are so perfect, aren't they?

Rob

[> Funny but..... -- Giles6688, 13:55:45 06/11/03 Wed

I just want to State for the record, I LOVE Andrew Lloyd's Webber's pompous, overblown rock operas.

[> [> Me too, actually. Or at least parts of most of them. ;o) -- Rob, 16:53:39 06/11/03 Wed

[> I *had* to check this out! -- Rochefort, 21:21:46 06/11/03 Wed

Rob, thanks for the tip!! I had to down load the song you listed. I haven't listened to it yet. If I love it, I'll look to buy it. The lyrics are just great. Thanks for the tip!

[> [> O.k., it's even better with the music. -- Rochefort, 21:50:50 06/11/03 Wed

[> [> [> Yes it is! I'd recommend getting the whole album... -- Rob, 22:04:12 06/11/03 Wed

Great score, with such delightful songs as, "Hold Me, Bat Boy, Touch Me, Bat Boy" (which includes such lyrics as, "In a cave many miles to the south/lives a boy born with fangs in his mouth!") and "Another Dead Cow." It parodies every musical style, from rock opera to operetta to country to old-fashioned "My Fair Lady"-esque stuff to Disney. Along the way, it references everything from vampire mythology to Jekyll and Hyde to Les Miserables to Jesus Christ, Superstar to again, My Fair Lady, to Frankenstein, to Greek mythology. "Urinetown" got all the acclaim that season for quirky musical, but the true ingenious, overlooked work was "Bat Boy." Suffering through "Buffy" withdrawal? These songs are a great pick-me-up! ;o)

Rob

[> Oops! Typo! "Curtch" should be "crutch"! -- Rob, 22:06:01 06/11/03 Wed

Sorry, Kipling -- lakrids, 18:15:38 06/11/03 Wed

Oh, Redemptionist is Redemptionist, and the Rest is the Rest, and never the twain shall meet,
Till Earth and sky presently at Joss great jugdment seat;
But there is neither Redemptionist nor the Rest, nor Border, nor Birth,
When two noisy groups stand face to face,
Tho' they come from the ends of seasons!

Oh, Redemptionist is Redemptionist, and the Rest is the Rest, and never the twain shall meet,
Till Earth and sky presently at Joss great jugdment seat;
But there is neither Redemptionist nor the Rest, nor Border, nor Birth,
When two BtVS fan groups stand face to face,
Tho' they come from the ends of seasons!

First of all, I do sincerely apologise to Kipling;
Second I don't have the least idea, if it's funny for more people than my self. Just a late night thought, that I expressed in writing.

See the real poem at
http://www.cs.rice.edu/~ssiyer/minstrels/poems/67.html

Some thoughts on "Fear, Itself" -- Rob, 19:59:02 06/11/03 Wed

Rewatching "Fear, Itself" I was struck by how symbotic and as Anya would say, "interlocking" the characters are. In previous viewings, I hadn't noticed how dependant each character's fear was on the other characters.

Buffy was afraid of being abandoned by everybody she loves. And what happens? Willow accuses Buffy of trying to lead everything like usual and not letting her do a locator spell so that she can continue to be the boss, and runs off, angrily, with Oz following. Xander apparently leaves her too.

Xander, of course, is at the time experiencing his own fear of becoming invisible, of never making a mark in the world, of being forgotten and ignored by his friends since he isn't in college like they are. So his disappearing feeds Buffy's fear of abandonment. Her not seeing or hearing him feeds his fear of abandonment (for different reasons).

Meanwhile, returning to Willow's fear, which is a fear mainly of not being able to be in control, Willow first has her best friend, Buffy, doubt her abilities, and try to keep her from doing the spell--taking the control away from her--causing her to leave. (See how neat that is, how Buffy and Willow's arguments each fed each other's fears?) Later she does lose control of her magic as the locator fireflies almost overwhelm her. This scene happens soon after, that's right, Oz loses control and so he goes all wolfie.

At the same time, of course, Oz's had a different fear of losing control, namely of giving into his dark side, and in the process, harming Willow. And so he turns into a werewolf. Willow seeing him turn of course feeds her own fear of loss of control.

It's very interesting how even this early in the season clues are given as to how important the SG is as a group to each other, almost like a single being, foreshadowing the connecting of minds in "Primeval" and "Restless". Even when they are not at peace with e/o, as will later come to a head in "The Yoko Factor," they function as a completely symbotic unit. No part can survive without the others, just as each fear (Xander and Buffy's of being abandoned, Willow and Oz of losing control) required the part of each other person in order to flourish.

Rob

[> wow- great insight, and so very true. -- Alison, 20:28:55 06/11/03 Wed

[> Nice one, Rob! -- MaeveRigan, 20:29:08 06/11/03 Wed

[> [> Thanks, guys! :o) -- Rob, 08:11:49 06/12/03 Thu

[> Good post. Hadn't thought of it that way... -- s'kat, 22:40:48 06/11/03 Wed

I'd always looked at the fears as being symbolic of the characters weaknesses, but I never noticed how the fears affected and built on each other before. That really is in keeping with the central themes of S4, which is both taking your own Initiative, yet needing your friends and society and connections. Themes that seem to flow throughout the series.

It's very interesting how even this early in the season clues are given as to how important the SG is as a group to each other, almost like a single being, foreshadowing the connecting of minds in "Primeval" and "Restless". Even when they are not at peace with e/o, as will later come to a head in "The Yoko Factor," they function as a completely symbotic unit. No part can survive without the others, just as each fear (Xander and Buffy's of being abandoned, Willow and Oz of losing control) required the part of each other person in order to flourish.

Yes, the very things that push them apart, are their fears, yet what pushes them past their fears is each other. Buffy acknowledges Xander's presence in the attic room, he's no longer invisible, Willow acknowledges OZ who stops being a wolf (later we see the reverse in New Moon Rising, where Willow's inability to acknowledge OZ and love of Tara, causes him to lose control and become the wolf, also Oz's abandonment of Willow causes her to lose control eventually over her magic in Something Blue - Willow moving on to Tara, helps her regain control, just as OZ moving off from Willow to find his own way - makes him able to regain control - just as regains it in the bathtub away from her in Fear ITself).

Giles is also interesting here. Since he is at home feeling lonely and unimportant, but Anya makes him aware that he is needed and he comes and literally slices through the fears of the SG to get into the attic and provides them with the way out. Except Buffy misunderstands Giles, as Giles misreads his own book - the miscommunication causes the Fear demon to appear to take on mythic proportions - yet, we discover it's nothing but a tiny demon, easily squashed.
Our fears are only what we make them. If we let them remain hidden unknowledged they become powerful, but when we acknowledge them, bring them out into the open - they become small and squashable.

Also love the line - "actual size" in the book, which Giles misread. Nice play off of the rear-view mirror statement - things aren't the size they appear in the mirror.

[> [> English Chainsaw Massacre -- Valheru, 23:20:10 06/11/03 Wed

[H]e comes and literally slices through the fears of the SG to get into the attic and provides them with the way out.

Also a nice bit of foreshadowing to S6's "Grave", where Giles does something similar for Buffy by turning all their melodramas into a big joke.

In fact, Giles is very much the safety blanket for the Scooby Gang. Whenever things start to get too scary for them, he always seems to calm their fears. They look to him as the adult, the one who has seen all this stuff before (in the metaphorical sense), and they think, "Hey, if Giles isn't freaked, it can't be all that bad." And when Giles does get freaked, things really are that bad (Angelus, for instance, or Joyce's death).

This shows up pretty starkly in S6 by Giles' absence. Without him to ground them, the Scoobies start to wallow in their fears. Tara--and Riley and Sam, to a certain extent--tries to recenter them, but all she can do is slow down the spiral. And when Giles does finally reappear, then almost immediately everyone overcomes their fears and regains control of their lives.

Case in point: Anya is not afraid when in Giles' presence in "Fear, Itself", despite being dressed as the most fearsome creature in the Buffyverse. The guy might as well be a blind superhero lawyer.

[> [> [> OT: Valheru... -- Rob, 23:27:10 06/11/03 Wed

I responded to your post on the DVD thread about whether the free Buffy DVD was a company-wide sale or just at the store near me, but I thought I might as well post the answer here too, in case you miss it there:

Yes, according to the sales clerk at the store I went to today, the free Buffy movie DVDs should come with any purchase of S4 at any Suncoast in the country. So if you're brave and feel like returning to that evil place, lol, you might want to present them with your receipt and ask about getting your free movie. ;o)

Of course, the sales clerk could be wrong, or the store you were in many not have gotten the same info, or something. But it's worth a shot to have a complete Buffy on DVD collection.

Rob

[> [> [> [> Thanks Rob! I'll put of my resolve face and march down there on the morrow! -- Valheru, 23:29:03 06/11/03 Wed

[> [> [> Re: English Chainsaw Massacre (general Season 7 spoilers) -- Plin, 05:47:51 06/12/03 Thu

In fact, Giles is very much the safety blanket for the Scooby Gang. Whenever things start to get too scary for them, he always seems to calm their fears. They look to him as the adult, the one who has seen all this stuff before (in the metaphorical sense), and they think, "Hey, if Giles isn't freaked, it can't be all that bad." And when Giles does get freaked, things really are that bad (Angelus, for instance, or Joyce's death).
This shows up pretty starkly in S6 by Giles' absence. Without him to ground them, the Scoobies start to wallow in their fears. [...] And when Giles does finally reappear, then almost immediately everyone overcomes their fears and regains control of their lives.

That's a very interesting point, and may be the key (or one of the keys) to why the Giles/Scoobies relationship seemed so "off" in Season 7. When we seem him in England with Willow, he's "all Dumbledore," calm and wise and reassuring. By the time he shows up in Sunnydale, though, he's been shaken to the core. From that point on, he does nothing but preach doom and gloom, berate them for not concentrating all their attention on the danger at hand, worry that Buffy isn't taking her duty seriously enough or isn't willing to do what needs to be done. As a consequence, everyone is wallowing in a sea of fear.

He doesn't calm down and go with the flow until the finale, and it just so happens that's when the plan is launched, Willow gets her groove back, everyone falls into place and they all work together as a team.
I'd never thought of Giles as the barometer of that group dynamic, but you make an intriguing case.

[> [> You, too! -- Rob, 23:20:16 06/11/03 Wed

Especially found your comparison of what happens to Willow and Oz in this episode with their seasonal arcs fascinating. So, from this respect, Oz's external changes can be seen as symbolic of Willow's inner turmoil. When Willow is upset and conflicted, the wolf in Oz comes out. When she regains control in her life and feels at peace, the wolf rests. Of course, that's a Willow-centric version of Oz's character. But perhaps as Willow's boyfriend, Oz's main function should be to reflect changes in Willow. She is, after all, one of the lead characters. Even when he wolfs out in "Wild at Heart," it comes out only after Willow has begun feeling anxious about Oz's seeming attraction to Veruca. Yep, she started to feel a loss of control in her life before he turned into a wolf there, too. Hmm...Of course, it isn't so one-sided, since Oz isn't only a Willow-barometer. He's a full character himself, but he can be sort of seen as a full character who also reflects the state of mind of another character at the time, sort of how many times Dawn's behavior can be seen as a reflection of Buffy's state of mind at the time.

Looking at all these parallels, not just with Willow and Oz, but also with what you mentioned with Giles, and my own thoughts about the interconnectedness of the SG, it seems like "Fear, Itself" might be that early ep that happens in every season which sums up all the themes of the year in microcosm.

Rob

[> [> [> Re: You, too! -- ponygirl, 07:17:03 06/12/03 Thu

Very interesting posts all! In a way too, Fear could be a foreshadowing of Restless, with the nightmare imagery, separation of characters, the constant searching. And did these fears ever go away? They didn't for s4, and right through s7 we see Xander finally coming to terms with being the guy nobody notices, Willow - with even better reason - fearing loss of control, Giles losing perspective, so wanting to see the larger picture that he doesn't notice details, and Buffy actually being rejected by her friends.

[> [> [> [> Fears which, IMO, were pretty much resolved in "Chosen"... -- Rob, 08:10:14 06/12/03 Thu

After being abandoned by them, Buffy regains her friends. Xander loses an eye (one step closer to becoming "invisible") and is asked by Buffy to leave...but comes back and fights by her side, handicapped or not. Willow learns that sometimes a loss of control doesn't necessarily have to be a bad thing, just giving in to this powerful force brought her to a very beautiful place. And of course she didn't really lose control here. Instead, she was finally using magic for the first time on a grand scale the way it is supposed to be used--not taking power from others to gain control but distributing power that already exists in nature, like she learned from Giles and the coven earlier this season. Giles, after realizing he has lost perspective and that he can't always be the one to come in and be the parent figure anymore, comes back to Buffy in the end. Whether it's deliberate or not, "Fear, Itself," really was echoed a great deal in the latter episodes of S7.

Rob

[> [> [> [> [> Yep -- ponygirl, 08:50:47 06/12/03 Thu

Oh dear, a David Fury script as the Rosetta Stone for the entire series! hehe

[> [> [> [> [> [> Bow down before the Fury! Mwahahahahahahaha! -- RobAndMurder, 09:40:52 06/12/03 Thu

[> The great theme of the whole series -- mamcu, 09:14:26 06/12/03 Thu

I know Joss has said it was really all about Buffy, but seeing how often the most interesting and pivotal episodes were about the group functioning together, about Buffy's being able to be part of the group, I think that really is the most important theme. As Rob so wisely points out, Fear Itself counterpoints but leads to Primeval and Restless , which in turn forshadow almost all of S6 and S7--FI (and Lover's Walk)is the breaking apart we see in 6, and Primeval (and Graduation Pt 2) is the coming together in S7.

Of course it works on many levels, too, and i don't forget it could also be about the fragmentation and reintegration of the different parts of Buffy. But the warmth and closeness of the endings of things like Primeval and Chosen somehow seem interpersonal to me.

Reconciling the Difference ...vampire characterization and fan reaction. -- Rufus (yet again tongue in cheek), 01:20:49 06/12/03 Thu

Oh for the simple days of the quick thrust and dust of the typical vampire on Buffy the Vampire Slayer. It was so simple....see one and kill it....move onto the next....no harm no foul. Then the writers did something and introduced Angel, allowing Buffy to get close enough to the man til she cared enough that finding out he was a vampire wasn't the thing needed to kill him readily. Angel was special...he had a soul, at least til season two when he lost it after having sex with Buffy. But the established canon was that vampires were soulless evil things....kill them to protect the world. This way of thinking had never been tested before...and Angel was the first in a test. So, canon was safe as Angel was A-okay being all soul having.

Then the bastard went and got his own show.....;)

What do you do when your special exception to the rule, the romantic partner of the lead character leaves.....you go find a nice guy to take his place. Riley came on the scene and was about as thrilling as cooling tea (I liked him but I guess I'm nuts). So, back to the drawing board....exit Captain Cardboard and enter....Captain Peroxide.......WHAT??????? But he is an evil soulless thing? He is a serial killer? Angel is good and Spike is bad. Kill the son of a bitch, have Buffy enter that nearby convent and have her wait out all of Angel's trials....and if she isn't gumming her food when he's finished have them ride off in the sunset. One problem.....there was still a show to produce, a story to be told, and Spike became the way to help tell Buffy's story of growing up.

So, what's the difference between the evil soulless thing and the faltering, not so evil man with a demon inside? The main thing is the timeline. Angel was shown as good and we have worked our way back to when he was the worst of the worst of vampires. With Spike we see him at his worst and start to work back to what the man once was. In my opinion it doesn't make any one man/demon better than the other. The big problem is when the writers had a panic attack over what they thought the general viewing audience thought was going on in season six of BTVS.

They alternately showed Spike as very sympathetic, heroic, then would put in just a hint of what he could still be capable of if push came to shove.....or if Buffy pissed him off as in Smashed. After that initial rejection, Spike seeks out the nerds of doom to check out the status of the chip. After he finds out it didn't work because it went off when he tried to attack a girl in an alley. Then no more mention til the Bad Eggs storyline of As you Were. And some of the audience found that they couldn't believe that Spike would do such a thing. At the recent convention, James Marsters has been reported to say something to the effect of.....

www.upi.com

James Marsters on Life After Buffy

By Karen Butler

The handsome 40-year-old California native also said he found it disturbing that although he kept trying to reveal Spike's evil side to the show's viewers, his all-too-forgiving fans stood by their vamp. Therefore, in order to turn people against Spike, he said, the show's writers added a shocking scene where he tries to rape Buffy at the end of the series' penultimate season.

"(Attacking) Buffy to prove my love? Hello!" he remarked, incredulous. "So, I started to get uncomfortable because people still wanted Buffy and Spike to be together, the same way I was uncomfortable with smoking too much because a lot of young kids watch and I didn't want to make that cool."

I certainly understand the part about the smoking....but to say that Spike with a soul should be less worthy than Angel with a soul to be with Buffy just makes no logical sense. Most of the comparisons between Angel and Spike are not fair in that the soulled Angel is held up against the unsoulled Spike, where I think you can only really use the comparison between the guys when they are in like states. If someone was to say that a soulled Angel is a better match for Buffy than an unsoulled Spike I'd reluctantly agree....my feeling is that both guys have such profoundly soiled backgrounds that if my daughter brought either home I'd bring out the hoover and start making some dust.

In season six I always felt that the point of the season was to get Spike from one state.....without a soul and either make him human or slap a soul in him. The bit in Smashed was enough for me to realize that Spike would be a loaded gun ready to go off at any time if the right set of circumstances were to occur. What gets to me is that the writers seemed to be unable to understand why some fans thought that Spike was fine without a soul.....and they can only really blame themselves for the confusion.

"When you create something, you have to....sort of....be prepared to reconcile the difference, or the shortfall between what you intended and what you achieved."

Nicholas Meyer, Star Trek 2 commentary

The attempted rape has been mentioned as a solution to the misunderstanding between the intent of the writers and the expectations and wishes of the fans. What it did was set up even more pissing contests between the shippers. Some used the attempted rape (remember Spike didn't have a soul) as a reason to say that Spike was forever evil, conveniently forgetting his new soul. Also a bit of selective amnesia about Angel occured.....forgotten was the fact that without a soul Angel tried to kill Buffy (sorry folks attempting to kill someone still is more serious than an attempted rape.....I like a live victim to deal with not a dead body). I have to admit some fans of Spike just didn't and won't ever get the fact that the writers were trying to say that without a soul, Spike would never be the type of man to trust. I feel that if they had dumped the ridiculous Doctor Egg episode and perhaps threw in some more scenes like that alley scene in Smashed, maybe some more fans would have caught on. Instead there was a backlash against Buffy, Angel.....the writers and then the start of the perpetual Angel is better than Spike.....no he's not....bullshit got nasty.

I don't think that we will ever really know how the writers feel about the characters in either show except for the fact that they didn't want to be saying anything about humans and ended up doing just that when they constantly held Angel up to be special, even when he was floundering, soul and all. I appreciate that both Angel and Spike are on equal ground in that they both have a soul, but for crying out loud if the writers want to make their intentions clear they have to quit screwing around with the audience and not make a soulless character so sympathetic only to blame the fans for their posative reaction to him. In a show that is all about metaphors and ambiguity it is easy to let go of the typical restraints one would have in real life, understanding the situations depicted could never happen. I highly doubt that most of the Spike fans would tolerate his type of behavior in real life. To say that one character is a serial killer but the other special set up the adversarial friction between the fan camps that persists today. So, I say to the writers....if you want to talk serial killers....do a f*cking show about serial killers.....and don't ......DON'T have the lead actress fall for either of the vampires she did, let alone sleep with them, soul or no soul. If the writers want to lay the blame on hormonal fans they should first consult their own scripts and apply a blanket judgement on fans of both Angel and Spike.....as both are nothing more than men with demons in them.....sort of like, a serial killer in prison. Me....I like my men nice.....like Mr. Rufus.....;)

[> Re: Reconciling the Difference ...vampire characterization and fan reaction. -- Cactus Watcher, 07:04:03 06/12/03 Thu

Have to agree. If they purpuposely make the most attractive guys on the show, the ones constantly on the verge of becoming abusive, or worse (certainly Angel as well as Spike) its ridiculous to say the audience shouldn't find them attractive. ME did send some signals early that Spike-without-a-soul was the wrong guy, but those moments were largely overwhelmed by the Buffy/Spike passion scenes. ME should admit if they were selling some primitive brand of moral standards, they were going about it all the wrong way. The fact that they kept the return of Spike's soul a secret till the last second, just ended up confusing a good piece of the audience, including me about what Spike intended even after the fact.

Naughty ME, bad ME. ;o)

[> [> Re: Reconciling the Difference ...vampire characterization and fan reaction. -- ponygirl, 08:17:27 06/12/03 Thu

Hmm, see I never got the mixed signals about Spike's intentions at the end of s6. Seems to me that we were always meant to be sympathetic to Spike's journey, mainly because we kept seeing it. You want suspense and menace? Imagine SR without the crypt scene. Cut straight to Spike leaving town on his motorcycle, or better yet don't see him again until he turns up in Africa. Much confusion certainly, but we wouldn't have had a clue what his state of mind was. Instead we see him breaking a glass in his hand, we see him flashing back, we see remorse. We are meant to understand his desire for change. And as Rufus points out scenes in Smashed and AYW show why he needs to change, what the stakes are if he does not. SR seemed to me as not so much a reminder that Spike could be evil, but that he lacked the capacity for judgement, that he had reached a crisis point.

I think a lot of the confusion lies in that ME now worries that some people didn't think he needed a soul, that there is no real difference between a soulled and unsoulled vampire, something that really messes up the rules of their universe. When I was watching s6 for the first time I wasn't sure about that myself, especially since it was a season that featured such human villians. But by the end of the season I came to think of the soul as not automatically equalling good, but something that allows the characters to make decisions about good and evil.

[> [> [> Agreed -- rowena, 08:41:53 06/12/03 Thu

"But by the end of the season I came to think of the soul as not automatically equalling good, but something that allows the characters to make decisions about good and evil."

Agreed. And let's look atWarren Mears as a excellent case in point of a souled person making decisions to do evil.

[> [> [> You were lucky. ;o) -- CW, 09:42:44 06/12/03 Thu

At the time it seemed to me a much more promising story if Spike hadn't wanted his soul back, just the power to be able to kill Buffy again. (Sort of the end of Fool for Love replayed) The fact that Joss and Marti were reassuring people during that summer that Spike did want his soul back, is prima facie evidence the sudden revelation confused a lot of people.

[> [> [> [> Not so lucky! -- ponygirl, 10:16:46 06/12/03 Thu

At the time I had a bet on that Spike was going to turn human, so the soul thing was a surprise for me too! Really - hindsight being marvelously 20/20 - there weren't many places for Spike to go. He had the ability to hurt Buffy, as we'd just seen in SR, and he was able to indirectly harm others as in AYW (ack). I agree that there was a mislead but I think that was to create suspense - or confusion depending on your opinion of ME's skill/cruelty. ;)

[> [> [> [> [> Yes, I remember that possiblity for Spike, too. -- CW, 10:28:52 06/12/03 Thu

It just seemed to me that the chip had to come out, or Spike couldn't be truly seen as redeemed. I was right, but that was way down the road! ;o)

[> [> [> Love and evil. -- Arethusa, 10:44:13 06/12/03 Thu

I think we're dealing with something very fundamental here-how people view the world, especially people's perceptions of love and evil. If people perceive the two in black and white terms, their view of Spike will be affected. Love is good, Spike loves, therefore Spike is good. Or Spike does bad things, anyone who does bad things is evil, so Spike is evil. But if love can be bad and selfish and good people can do bad things, Spike is an ambiguous character who can do good things and love, while still being evil.

Why do some root for the underdog and others the hero? How can Spike be seen as both a gentlemanly romantic hero and an evil killer?

How does our view of the world affect how we interpret and react to it? And if we can understand how and why we perceive the world, will we be able to understand ourselves and the choices we make?

[> [> "Curse you, Doug Petrie!" and other thoughts -- cjl, 09:09:44 06/12/03 Thu

I was listening to the DVD commentary on "The Initiative" last night, and I was transported by the effortlessly genial, funny, intelligent commentary by Doug Petrie. Here was a man who knew what his characters were about, the themes of the season, and how they all tied together. More than Marti or Fury, I think Petrie had the best understanding of what Joss was trying to accomplish on BUFFY and the best ability to convey it on screen (at least until Drew Goddard came along).

So how could he mess everything up so badly with "As You Were"?

1. RILEY. I happened to think Riley's moral disillusionment in Season 4 was twenty times more compelling than the B/R romance. Looking at S4 again, I realize how much I felt for the guy, not because he was having relationship problems with Buffy (join the club, Farm Boy), but because he had his entire worldview flipped upside down and turned inside out. Look at him freaking out at Willy's in "Goodbye, Iowa." Man, that's good stuff. (Give him enough material, and Blucas CAN act. Yes, he's limited, but it's there.)

So what happened in AYW? Back in the Army again, after Doug and the rest of the staff spent a year-and-a-half shredding everything he ever believed in--Mr. Happy Soldier, with his brand new robot wife, and same old demon killing mission. Apparently, Riley's painful lessons in S4 and early S5 dribbled out of his ears, and he was the same gung ho jock we saw in Early S4. (Maybe worse--Riley held off on telling Buffy he was married until they encountered Sam at the dam, something I don't think the old Riley EVER would have done.)

Did Petrie intend for the too-perfect Finns to be satirical? Perhaps. They didn't come off that way, though. Their sense of warrior class privilege just made you hate them, and sympathize with their enemies. And that was bad news when it came to--

2. SPIKE. (Yes, I am commenting on this thread.) Oh my. Doug and ME couldn't have botched this any worse if they tried. Spike as international demon egg merchant? Where in the name of the unholy powers did this come from? (All those shots of Spike scrounging through junk yards and carrying groceries back to the crypt like a good little neutered puppy were obviously a clever ruse by this devious master of high finance.) Maybe, MAYBE I could have bought this little development if they'd foreshadowed it--perhaps in Doublemeat Palace, when Spike said he can get Buffy the money. But taken on its own, with the viewer coming in cold, it was too big a suspension of disbelief, and the audience's mind started to wander to other possibilities. Maybe he was innocently babysitting the eggs for Clem. Maybe the Finns were behind it all. (Yeah, says the audience, those obnoxious Finns framed poor Spikey....)

So what happened? With the "incontrovertible" evidence of Spike's eeeeeevilness discounted by a good chunk of the viewing public, the breakup at the end (while a damn fine scene) lost its "Buffy overcomes despair and ditches bad boyfriend" glow. Season 6 continued along in Ambiguity Land, until the writers finally decided to slam the brakes down in "Seeing Red"--so hard, that many viewers thought ME crashed through the floorboards.

Could this have been avoided? Oh yes. In so many ways.

But this is all water under the bridge now. Spike was redeemed. And I'm thinking good thoughts about Doug Petrie.
He wrote "Fool for Love," and that's all anybody should remember, anyway....

[> [> [> "He wrote 'Fool for Love,' and that's all anybody should remember, anyway...." -- Rob, 11:07:30 06/12/03 Thu

Agreed, as well as "The Initiative" (I was able to forgive him for having Spike be able to hurt the Initiative guys by fanwanking that maybe some of them were secretly part-demon like Doyle...lol), some of the damn best Faith episodes ever, and "Get It Done," one of my S7 favorites.

Rob

[> [> [> [> If you notice, when Spike hits the Initiative scientist, he experiences a brief pain reaction -- Finn Mac Cool, 11:34:37 06/12/03 Thu

It's quick, but it's there if you watch for it. He probably just figured it was "one of those things" and didn't realize its significance until later.

[> [> [> [> [> But then he hits another, and nothing happens. -- cjl, 11:40:26 06/12/03 Thu

Maybe that's the demon hybrid member of the team.

(Mmmm....fanwankilicious.)

[> [> [> [> [> [> Indeed! ;o) -- Rob, 12:00:47 06/12/03 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> um... the chip was just getting warmed up? -- ponygirl reaching, 12:46:31 06/12/03 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Fanwankery re: the chip and KiM -- Rob, 13:22:33 06/12/03 Thu

I was also thinking...isn't it at all possible that the times Spike spoke of in KiM, where The Initiative tested him with the chip occured before he woke up in his cell in this episode, and that they are blocked memories he did not regain until later?

Rob

[> [> [> [> [> Re: If you notice, when Spike hits the Initiative scientist, he experiences a brief pain reaction -- skyMatrix, 12:03:35 06/12/03 Thu

I've read Joss say that Spike's escape sequence in that ep is one of the biggest errors in the show, since they had him fighting his way out even though he couldn't really fight humans anymore! From what I remember, by the time they realized it, it was too late, so they overdubbed some yells of pain for Spike b/c that was the best they could do. This info might have been in the Watcher's Guide Vol. 2 (not worth it if not for the wrter/supporting actor interviews), I'm not certain.

[> [> [> [> [> Wasn't pain, was sorrow - Spike wished he'd hit Riley, not Sgt. Redshirt. -- Archilochian, 17:48:59 06/12/03 Thu

[> [> [> Re: "Curse you, Doug Petrie!" and other thoughts -- Malandanza, 21:41:06 06/12/03 Thu

"Oh my. Doug and ME couldn't have botched this any worse if they tried. Spike as international demon egg merchant? Where in the name of the unholy powers did this come from? (All those shots of Spike scrounging through junk yards and carrying groceries back to the crypt like a good little neutered puppy were obviously a clever ruse by this devious master of high finance.)"

I didn't see that as Spike, the International Demon Egg Merchant (catchy title for a spin-off, though), rather as a continuation of the Spike we saw in A New Man where Giles offers him an extra hundred dollars to risk his life -- and he takes it. It's Spike as the petty criminal, taking money for keeping the eggs without asking what they do, then failing to safeguard them (hey, you hire a slacker like Spike, you get what you pay for). I think it's analogous to someone living in a drug-infested neighborhood taking a few dollars to deliver a package without questioning what's inside -- he knows it's something wrong, just not the specifics. In this case, I think Spike thought he was delivering a package of marijuana and found out later that it was heroin. Of course, if he had known how dangerous the eggs were, I think he'd still have taken the job -- just asked for more money.

Lots of problems with As You Were, though (most of them involve Mrs. Riley), but I can forgive alot for the man who wrote this line:

RILEY: I've seen enough of your dead body for one night, thanks.

[> Good show Ruf. Some thoughts -- s'kat, 10:15:27 06/12/03 Thu

I agree with everything you said above and what cjl says and poneygirl oddly enough. Don't think that's too inconsistent.

Apparently you've been reading the same frustrating battles over the Moonlight Rising Q&A's that I have. This board has been spared those debates - which are all over the other boards. JAmes Marsters said some controversial things at MR that caused several fans to well over-react. Forgetting as fans often do, that the poor man is an actor and entitled to an opinion which neither affects nor changes what appears on the screen. Also like many actors - he blames himself for how fans view his character - it's an endearing quality in a way, but not real valid, since the actor is hardly responsible for how the part is written and how he is directed to play it. Unfortunately, like all human beings who go to work each and every day, when someone criticizes a project we worked on - we often blame ourselves, even if the project has gone through twenty hands and is a collaboration. It's human nature. I know I do it. Anyways...this is the reason S6 is suddenly getting over-analyzed again on the internet. IT came up at the Con and reports were released.

***********

I was one of the few fans out there who liked Riley Finn until AYW (they destroyed the character for me in AYW, in fact the reason I despised AYW was what happened to Riley.
It made me really miss the Riley Finn in Into The Woods.)
While I found the sex scenes betwee B/R dull and annoying (but I found the kissing scenes between B/A dull and annoying too), I liked and enjoyed Riley. And just as he was really getting interesting in S5, they wrote him off.
So I'm part of your minority on Riley Finn. In real life?
Riley or Giles would be the only two guys I'd consider shacking up with. I might entertain (think about) a fling with Angel or Spike but I wouldn't want to be in a relationship with them. But this isn't real life, it's fantasy and in fantasy it's more interesting if the heroine's love life is conflicted. Although...to be honest, even in S5, I think I found B/R okay.

What disturbs me about what I've been seeing online is that numerous fans feel a need to tell the writers how to tell the story. They organize campaigns to send postcards informing the writers, the networks, the producers how they feel the story should be told. This is offensive to me.
Let them tell their story. You don't like it? Don't watch.
Or write fanfic. Or your own bloody story. ugh. Sometimes I wonder if Reality TV has hurt us in a bad way. The Reality TV phenomen - provides tv watchers with the ability to interact with the story on the screen, the watcher gets to vote people off an island, out of a house, or pick the best entertainer, whomever the majority of viewers picks wins.
This gets high ratings apparently. Soap Operas have focus groups of fans who will tell them which characters should be put together and the writers follow their lead. We are no longer watching art - we are watching mass marketing.
Hence the reason my tv watching has dwindled over the years.
I hope and pray, ME can continue to tell their stories the way they wish and will ignore the audience to some extent.
Yes, some interaction is good - to see what works and what doesn't work. Playwrites do that all the time, as do movie producers - releasing something to preview audiences, getting feedback and reworking elements that don't work. Writers of novels also do it - with readers and editors.
That's one thing. But to change whole plot arcs or insert major acts as a reaction to fans, is a bit much. The suggestion both this year and in Season 6 that ME actually did that, bugs me. I really really hope that the AR scene was not the result of fans or mail the writers had gotten and instead came naturally from the story at least in their heads, I also really really hope that the rumor they'd toyed with changing Spike more drastically into William when he got the soul but dropped the idea due to fan response and the networks nixing it is also untrue. Just as the idea they threw W/K together as a reaction to fans bugs me. I'd hate to think that what I see on the screen is approved by committee. I don't think it is completely true, due to the commentaries and the interviews. But I'm not sure.

[> [> Re: Good show Ruf. Some thoughts -- Miss Edith, 16:52:54 06/12/03 Thu

James has got some wacky fans all right. I'm not surprised that he gets freaked out when some people yell "rape me anytime" at conventions he attends. And recently he has said B/A was the best way to end the series and begged females to choose the nice guy which has resulted in some "fans" suggesting he should shut up, do his job, and get naked. I only wonder he doesn't avoid conventions all together, I certaintly would in his position

[> At times, it's enough to make you feel... -- fresne, 11:04:35 06/12/03 Thu

like you came back wrong.

Or are a pod person.

Or your visual and mental acuity is distorted by magic crack.

Or perhaps you are a coming back wrong pod person whose visual and mental acuity is distorted by some really bad magic crack that like cracks the narrative into a billion tiny little people. And then it's like a Troma horror movie and the little pod people start arguing. And you are sad. So, very, very sad. Oh, the wrong cracked pod peoplity of it.

Or not.

Because, I don't care what Joss says, the Cheesman is like totally representative of the general American public's desire for preprocessed square slices of cheese. And nothing he can say will convince me otherwise. Unless, someone can come up with a wackier theory. Perhaps, something to do with *mole people and a minion-ator (it slices, it dices, it makes minions of all who watch).

*All mole people appearances courtesy of matching mole's S7 mole people predictions last September. From beneath us it devours. Hmmm

[> [> A citation! -- matching mole, 12:05:41 06/12/03 Thu

Yes!! Finally the recognition I deserve!!!

It is a little known secret that 'From beneath us it devours' was originally supposed to refer to the mole people rising up and consuming the world's supply of processed cheese. Or possibly using it for the reception at the Dawn/mole king wedding, my sources are unsure. However this was deemed too frightening by UPN and they pressured ME to make changes early in the season.

Rather than potential slayers the female victims in early episodes were actually hairstylists and the only ones with the hair dyes capable of defeating the mole people (see fresne's 'shameless ripoff predictions' in the link she supplies in her message). The hooded figures were not Bringers but mole people (or perhaps minion-ators). And the giant worm - a mobile mole buffet that escaped.

[> [> [> Darn! I would have watched that show! -- MaeveRigan, 12:22:49 06/12/03 Thu

It might have been almost as good as Tremors.
Is there a sarcasm font in html or do I have to stick with ;- )

[> [> [> Of course, the Lost Mole Episodes -- Arethusa, 12:47:40 06/12/03 Thu

referenced that early classic of mole-related cinema, Superman and the Mole Men. The theme of tolerance echoes across the years, as both Superman and Buffy learn different doesn't have to mean evil, as long as there is cheese to share.

I believe there was also a reference to Wind in the Willows, inclluding a clear correlary between Spike and Toad.

[> [> [> But, of course! -- fresne, 17:51:09 06/12/03 Thu

And it is tragic how ME bowed to will of the networks and lost this beautiful and fulfiling story about the mole people from Jupiter and their vile plot to kidnap Dawn (well, it's Tuesday) and devour stuff. Lots and lots of stuff. Come to think of it, where did the Shaka Khan cave come from?

Pinky to side of mouth, hmmm...the lair of the Mole King methinks. I can't be fooled by the comments of actors and writers and directors and producers and that guy who played that guy in that one episode back in season three. The truth is like beneath us or something.

And maybe the First Evil is like Grendel's mom to the Mole King or something. But like, incorporeal and it's always doing these really wacky impressions. And possibly some Dorothy Parker quotes, just cause. In iambic pentameter. To warm up for its date with Sweet. But actually, the First was actually the actress who played the First Willow in the promo, but wearing a rubber mask. And she'd have gotten away with it if it weren't for you lousy young adults and your Dawn too.

And possibly the reason that Giles was so poddish is because every night he was doing gigs at local clubs. Which for Diabolical reasons, we never got see. The fiends.

I'm just trying to figure out how ME was planning on using that Zeppelin in the attack on the lair of the Mole King. Because you know, everyone loves a Zeppelin, but you know cave, air flying thingy. I can see where that would have been hard to pull off.

The struggle with the inner self: women's way and men's way on BtVS -- mamcu, 12:05:02 06/12/03 Thu

I was thinking about how fascinated we are by the Angel and Spike questions of the vampire with the soul, and how that image seems to really resonate for many of us. Then it occurred to me that there aren't any women (at least not on BtVS--I don't know much about Angel) who have similar struggles--being a demon and then acquiring the realization that they've been evil for a long time.. The women--Buffy and Willow--instead are wrestling with their own power, and the ways that it connects and separates them from others. They sort of seem to have gone the opposite direction--started out "normal" and then acquired the potential bad part. You could almost read evilveiny Willow as the opposite of Spike, but the power that comes to the normal Buffy and transforms her is mainly a power to do good.

Wonder why there weren't any souled female vamps? Can kind of see why having power isn't such a difficulty for man, given the socialization most men are given (or maybe I'm being overly- influenced by the pop-anthropology that's currently saying that men are wired to want power). or are they kind of the same thing, in a way?

[> Well, Anya had a similar path, of sorts (S7 spoilers) -- Plin, 12:39:34 06/12/03 Thu

When we first saw her in The Wish, she was the full- turbo demon Anyanka. By the end of the episode she had been unwillingly deprived of her powers--not unlike Angel's curse, but without the pesky happiness clause. Which for Anya would have been a serious problem!

So, over the next few seasons she tries to adapt to life as a human, to a debateable degree of success, but only by adopting a false persona. There is no real change: as Buffy was Spike's moral compass pre-soul, Anya never really internalized human values. When she encounters the huge disappointment and humiliation of the botched wedding, she reverts to demonhood.

Then, we see, her journey has not been entirely in vain. By Selfless she realizes that there's no going home, and she's been part of human society too long to go back to blithely killing. Her only options are humanity or death, and D'Hoffryn denies her the latter (her first choice). She's back to being human, but she hates it. It's not until End of Days that we see her fully embrace humanity and feel a part of it. That's when she's completely redeemed, when she recognizes that true power means fighting the good fight even against impossible odds.
Just in time, of course, to die a sudden and senseless battlefield death. Oh, well.

So not quite a vampire, but along the same lines. It does seem to fit your criterion, anyway, about women
who have similar struggles--being a demon and then acquiring the realization that they've been evil for a long time.
She just has to go back and forth a couple times.

[> [> Darla (spoilers for AtS S3.) -- Arethusa, 13:07:45 06/12/03 Thu

She was a souled vampire when she was pregnant with Connor. From Lullaby, quote by psyche:

Angel to Darla: "You're gonna be okay."

Darla: "No. No, I don't think so. Once he's gone, I won't be okay. I won't be okay at all. - I don't know what I'll be. - Angel... Our baby is gonna die right here in this alley. - You died in an alley, remember?"

Angel: "I remember."

Darla: "I wanna say I'm sorry. I wanna say it and mean it, but - I can't. - Aren't you gonna tell me it's okay?"

Angel: "No."

Darla: "No? It's really not, is it? We did so many terrible things together. So much destruction, so much - pain. - We can't make up for any of it. You know that, don't you."

Angel after a beat: "Yeah."

Darla: "This child - Angel, it's the one good thing we ever did together."

Angel lifts Darla's hand between both of his and pressed it against his lips.

Darla: "The only good thing."

Angel buries his face in his hands, still holding onto Darla's, takes a sobbing breath.

Darla: "You make sure to tell him that."

She accepts what she's done and know there is no way to make up for it. It's too late to say she's sorry. As soon as the baby is born she will go back to being an evil killer, and she can't bear it. The only thing she can do is preserve future lives, starting by killing herself so Connor will live. I don't know if she would have felt tortured by remorse if she lived with a soul for a long time. She did what she had to do to survive as a human, too, and accepted the consequences, no matter how bad.

From Dear Boy:

Priest: "Are you prepared now to renounce Satan and beg God his forgiveness?"
Darla: "God never did anything for me."
Priest to the others: "Leave us."
The two sisters leave.
Priest to the doctor still sitting at her bedside: "You can't save her life - perhaps I can still save her soul."
The doctor gets up and leaves.
Darla: "My soul is well past saving. Let the devil take me if he'll have me. Either way - I die."

[> [> [> But how we respond to them -- mamcu, 18:33:36 06/12/03 Thu

As I said, I don't know much about AtS, just part of this last season. Sounds similar, and certainly the argument about Anya is convincing. But we as fans aren't especially caught up in those struggles, not the way we are with Angel and Spike. I've seem maybe one or two threads arguing the morality and redemption, etc., of those two females, but look at the quantities of posts on the goodness and badness of Spike and Angel.

And note who got a series of his own, and who is the one from BtS who will continue on it. I understand the real-life issues behind that, but I still think it's revealing.

Oh no Charisma, what have you done!? -- Vash the Stampede, 12:26:06 06/12/03 Thu

Just read this at scifi.com:

Former Angel star Charisma Carpenter will co-star with Joe Millionaire's Evan Marriott and Charmed witch Holly Marie Combs in the upcoming ABC Family TV movie See Jane Date, TV Guide Online reported. The telefilm starts shooting June 13 in Montreal.

Joe Millionaire?! Ack! Its the sign of the apocolpsye. Run for the hills, the end is nigh!

Vash

[> Sounds like she meant it when she said she wanted to return to the old Cordelia -- Masq, 12:46:33 06/12/03 Thu

[> Blargh!!!!!!!!!!!! -- Rob (who can feel the bile rising in his throat), 13:19:39 06/12/03 Thu

[> Give Charisma a break. -- cjl, 14:29:08 06/12/03 Thu

OK, we know this TV movie is probably going to make "Charmed" look deep by comparison, but let's face it--jobs like this are probably what she wants. TV movies, maybe a co-starring role on a sitcom, anything that shoots from 9 to 4:30, five days a week, and lets her spend extra time with her new family. ME shows have a brutal shooting schedule (a production person once called BtVS "Buffy the Weekend Killer"), and Charisma just doesn't wanna do it anymore. I couldn't gripe about Tony Head wanting to go back to England, and I'm not going to gripe about Charisma either. I've enjoyed Cordy too much over the years to justify snarking at her now.

Now that I've said all those wonderful things about her, I can't help but dread that she'll actually land that sitcom role, and we'll get something resembling "Cordy!" (gotta have the exclamation point). At the Vancouver meet, we saw an extended, six-minute clip from "Cordy!" (it's on the ANGEL S3 DVD) that Charisma could conceivably use as an audition tape. It was supposed to be funny, encapsulizing every sitcom cliche in the universe.

I couldn't laugh. It was simply too realistic. The networks would schedule it in a second.

Thank god Charisma wore am Xtreme cleavage-exposing outfit, otherwise I never would have made it through the clip.

[> Re: Oh no Charisma, what have you done!? -- yabyumpan, 15:39:46 06/12/03 Thu

.....What she's done is to get her self a lead role in a project after being unceramoniously sacked from a job she'd been doing for seven years, with no public thanks for her hard work over those seven years from her former boss. I say good luck to her, I think it puts paid to those rumours that she left AtS to become a full time mum. It also puts her out there in front of a wider, non-genre audience, which can only be a good thing for her career.

from Variety.com

Carpenter nails 'Date'
Thesp to play single girl looking for perfect b.f.

Charisma Carpenter ("Angel," "Buffy the Vampire Slayer") has nabbed the title role in the ABC Family telepic "See Jane Date," based on the book by Melissa Senate.

Also on board for the project, which goes before cameras Friday in Montreal, are "Charmed" star Holly Marie Combs and Linda Dano.

TV helmer Bob Berlinger is directing the pic, penned by Sheila Lawrence.

Story concerns a single girl living in Gotham who tries to impress her high school nemesis (Combs) by inventing the perfect boyfriend as her date to an impending wedding. To fill the bill, she embarks on an amusing string of blind dates.

Among those who have signed on to appear as potential suitors are Zachary Levi, Antonio Sabato Jr., Geoff Stults and Evan Marriott.

"See Jane Date" will be produced by von Zerneck/Sertner Films. Frank von Zerneck and Robert M. Sertner are executive producers, with Randy Sutter serving as producer.

Pic, slated to air in August, is the third and final installment in the cabler's summer movie series. "This Time Around" and "Lucky 7" are skedded to bow June 22 and July 20, respectively.

[> [> Maybe, but Joe Millionaire? That's wouldn't be my first choice for a co-star -- Vash the Stampede, 16:38:48 06/12/03 Thu

Not that Charisma had anything to do with the casting, but still its going to hurt the credibility of the movie.

[> [> [> It sounds more like a cameo than a co-starring role -- d'Herblay, 16:54:37 06/12/03 Thu

C'mon, isn't there any residual Antonio Sabato, Jr. bile around here? Doesn't anyone remember his run on Melrose?

In any case, it's work, and congratulations to Charisma. I'm actually impressed that she's playing the title character, because from the capsule description, I would have expected her and Combs to have each other's role instead.

Check out the Buffy Studies Bibliography -- MaeveRigan, 12:54:00 06/12/03 Thu

Individual Existential Scoobies' essays and ATPoBtVS&AtS are included in Slayage's new resource, the Buffy Studies Bibliography.

Expect to be cited in more scholarly papers soon, philosophical colleagues!

David Lavery & Rhonda Wilcox rule.

[> Yay for Etrangere, Rattletrap and Shadowkat! -- cjl, 14:47:02 06/12/03 Thu

(Where are Etrangere and 'trap these days, anyway?)

[> [> Yes, but it looks like the links are wrong to the ES essays -- CW, 14:50:22 06/12/03 Thu

[> [> Boo for me! -- d'Herblay, 14:59:19 06/12/03 Thu

I did a quick check -- Ded's and mundus's essays are still in there (under their real names), but mine, which were in the Derek Badman bibliography which served as the basis for this, make no appearance. I feel like I've been found unworthy.

Ah, well; the Rosicrucians still like me.

[> [> [> Me too...My "For Who Could Ever Love A Beast" essay made the original list, but not Slayage's. :o( -- Rob, 23:21:18 06/12/03 Thu

[> [> There are others, too, just under their real life names -- Masq, 15:06:59 06/12/03 Thu

Some of us have real life names. : )

[> [> [> Yep...;-) -- s'kat, 19:34:32 06/12/03 Thu

Mine's under my real-life name. I figured what the hell, it's on my website and my real life name? Hugely popular.
Do a google search and I bet you find over 1000 of me. ;-)
Why do you think I had to come up with an internet psuedonyme?

OT: Cronyism - a moral quandry -- Anneth, 13:19:43 06/12/03 Thu

I started my summer job last Monday; I'm a law clerk at a firm that provides legal services to Native Americans. I love it. But I just found out this morning, from my supervisor and the firm's executive director, that I was hired solely because my mom's boyfriend, my supervisor's old friend from law school, "called in a favor." For whatever it's worth, I despise my mom's boyfriend, I had no idea he had any connection to the firm when I applied for the job, and I never asked for this.

I feel terrible. I realize that 'it's all about who you know' (this is what the Career Services people at school recite to us ad nauseum) but the fact that I received what amounts to a boon solely because I know the right person, rather than upon my merits, makes me feel as though my appointment as a clerk is worth less than those of my co-clerks. I also realize that mom's boyfriend probably wouldn't have called his friend if he didn't think I could do a good job - but I suspect that I received my position over people who were better qualified. Reasonably or unreasonably, I feel now as though I don't deserve to be here, because my achievements aren't what got me here.

I'm curious to know if anyone has any thoughts on the subject... either way, thanks for, you know, listening.

;-)

Anneth

[> I got my job through a "connection"-- and I'm sleeping pretty soundly. -- cjl, 13:44:14 06/12/03 Thu

After all, your connection gets you the job, but your performance determines whether or not you keep it. Your Career Services people are right, Anneth--landing a job through Somebody You Know is a near-ubiquitous experience in today's labor market. Ask a random sample of ten people in your company, and I guarantee at least seven will have gotten in the door via a connection to somebody in the firm. (Says cjl, rationalizing his own good fortune.) You simply shouldn't lose sleep about it.

The only problem I see on the horizon is the debt of gratitude you owe your mother's boyfriend. Are you obliged to be extra polite to him now? Is he trying to "win you over"? Don't know about this guy, but would he retract the kind words about you if he didn't "win you over"? (Maybe you're not having a problem with taking the job; maybe you have a problem with the person who did you the favor.)

Honestly, Anneth, so many people I know are unemployed, and struggling to make it in hard economic times. I admire your ethical self-examination, but it doesn't sound to me as if you've committed any sort of egregious sin or robbed the next Clarence Darrow of his start in the field.

Work hard and do the best you can to justify your new firm's faith in you and your faith in yourself.

[> Sigh. It feels weird.. -- dream, 13:58:10 06/12/03 Thu

But it won't for long. I used to be very worried about that sort of thing. Until I realized that luck is luck. One of your co-clerks may have been recommended by someone else. Another may have this job because last summer, he was able to get an internship at his mother's law firm. Or, heck, because he was able to take a summer to do an internship and didn't have to support himself full-time.

Most jobs are never advertised in newspapers - people find them through the people they know. Yes, there are people who are seriously disadvantaged because of this system. If you are concerned about it, you could do something like join an organization for mentoring high-school students - a lot of what students get out of those programs is contacts. But if you decide that you will only take jobs in which your personal associations played no part, you are deliberately putting yourself at a disadvantage. Don't be so hard on yourself. Just make sure you do the job at the best of your abilities. What matters is that the job is done well, right? So do it really, really well, and prove to yourself that they were right to tkae a chance on you, no matter why they did it.

[> I used to feel the same way. -- Sophist, 14:04:18 06/12/03 Thu

In fact, I turned down jobs I could have had for exactly this reason. In retrospect, I view this as a mistake. The relevant point is how well you perform your job, not how you got it. If this were not the case, we'd have to spend way too much time worrying about the motivations of our employer: did I get it because I'm pretty? Black? White? etc. This is an endless and unproductive route. You are only responsible for doing your job, not for the motivations of your boss.

[> Don't be so hard on yourself -- Sara, 14:09:33 06/12/03 Thu

The truth is that anyone who takes hiring seriously is not going to allow a favor to be a large part of the decision making process. Once the favor is over, the office has to live with the competancy (or in...) of the the person they've hired. It is more likely that the favor may have gotten you an interview, or a closer look, and there's nothing wrong with that. If you're working hard, and doing a good job then that's the bottom line. You can't control what you don't know about, so it makes no sense to feel bad about it. It sounds like you're doing good work for good reasons and no one can ask for more than that from you.

- Sara

[> [> My sentiments exactly -- Cactus Watcher, 14:13:39 06/12/03 Thu

[> Thanks so much, everyone ... -- Anneth, 14:25:13 06/12/03 Thu

I really appreciate your taking the time to reply, and the fresh perspectives.

Hugs,
Anneth

[> Jobs are precious right now -- pr10n, 15:25:38 06/12/03 Thu

Anneth: If you choose to leave your job because of your conflicted feelings ("And that's a valid lifestyle choice.") make sure you have a job before you leave the current. The job market is tres bizarro, as many posters will attest.

[> If it's a successful firm they wouldn't waste a good job on an incompetent. -- Archilochian, 18:30:01 06/12/03 Thu

... unless your mom's boyfriends friend is pretty high up in the mob or something, a professional firm wouldn't have given you a job over someone more competent. If you and another were tied in qualifications- then maybe it helped them come to an easier decision - but that is all. You got the job because of you. No one else. Who knows how many people had someone speak up for them, anyway?

You got the job because you were the best one for it.

You aren't working for a fast-food chain, you are working for a legal firm with many responsibitlities and potential liabilities regarding their employees and hiring practices. They would not risk giving a clerk job to an incompetent, no matter what favors were owed. If you weren't right for the job, the legal firm would have probably just found you some other, less exacting work that you were qualified to do.

You have the job because you are the best for that job. On your very own merits. Period.

Please don't let your feelings about mom's bf seep over and pollute your self-esteem. It is a completely separate issue. Don't let your distaste for him make you suspicious of your hiring. You deserve the job on your own merits. Don't let him take any credit for it - in your mind or anywhere else. It's logically, realistically, ethically, legally and totally not true.

ps The 'it's all about who you know' theory has many limits and loopholes. It's always, in the end, going to be 'it's all about who you are'.

[> Hiring the right person for the wrong reason -- mamcu, 20:06:33 06/12/03 Thu

I do a lot of hiring of adjunct faculty. I am suspecting that it could have been a real recommendation as much as "calling in a favor." I'd rather hire someone that's known by someone I know than have to rely on references from strangers for strangers. Even if the reference is a relative--at least he knows you won't set up a porn ring on the firm's computers, treat the clients like dirt, etc. Even when there are really good cv's, you never know what the real person is like.

[> Take advantage of it -- s'kat, 20:36:48 06/12/03 Thu

Okay, I know something about law firm clerk-ships. 9 out of 10 of the people who get them - got it them through a favor. Very very few, particularly in this economy, get it by sending in a resume and a transcript. Law firms don't have time to review everyone's resume, interview tons of people and try to pick someone out of the stack. It is far easier to have a friend recommend someone or better yet have them call in a favor. Makes everyone feel great. Is it incestuous? yeah. Does it seem unfair to some of us? yep.
But it's how it's done.

When I was in law school - I would have killed for a clerkship but my parents didn't know any lawyers. So I got a law professor to take pity on me and get me a non-paying internship with the Public Defender Office. One of the people I knew in law school is now working at a firm owned by his father's best friend. I did NOT know anyone in law school who got a clerk- ship solely based on merits. They got it through the network. I just interviewed a guy last week who got his first job in tv production through networking.

That's how it works. Take advantage of it. Do some good for your clients. Prove to the firm that you did deserve it on your merits and that they are damn lucky that they knew your mother's boyfriend not the other way around. In short?
Make the best of the situation.

[> Do your job well but never believe you owe them or the b/f anything special... -- zan, 23:02:16 06/12/03 Thu

especially if this was all done behind your back. They made their choices - and you are not responsible for them.

And why on earth are your supervisors telling you this anyway? I don't quite understand why they'd be undermining their own authority in that way. Or did they have some strategic reasons for wanting to make you feel as if you were lucky to be there?

[> agreeing w/everybody else who's responded! -- anom, 23:42:35 06/12/03 Thu

No matter what they said, you didn't get the job solely because of your mom's boyfriend's recommendation. It was that on top of your own qualifications, which are real, or you wouldn't have been hired even w/his input.

You're part of an operation that can do a lot of good--more than most of us are likely to have a chance to do. Isn't that why you applied for this job? And you're enjoying it--even better! So go ahead. Show 'em the real reason you're the right person for the job.

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