June 2003 posts
Angel
writers for s5 -- grifter, 01:36:10 06/08/03 Sun
Over at aintitcoolnews.com they have listed the Angel writers
for s5:
in:
Joss Whedon
Jefferey Bell
Elizabeth Craft & Sarah Fain
Steven S. DeKnight
Ben Edlund
David Fury
Drew Goddard
out:
Jane Espenson
Drew Z. Greenberg
David Greenwalt
Rebecca Rand Kirshner
Tim Minear
Marti Noxon
Doug Petrie
Mere Smith
My favorite writers of the last two seasons of Buffy (DeKnight
and Goddard) are in, but out are the fabulous Rebecca Rand Kirshner
and Doug Petrie, who I think would have really fitted in well
over at Angel Inc.
Minear, Greenwalt and Smith I already knew wouldn´t come
back this year; I don´t know if Greenberg and Epsenson would
have fitted in well with the darker "Angel-verse".
I also hope Marti Noxon stays as Producer at least, contrary to
most people I´ve always loved her work. Plus, she picked
Amber Benson to play Tara, so she´s got good instincts at
casting people I figure.
[> Re: Angel writers for
s5 -- Yellow Bear, 11:11:33 06/08/03 Sun
I've never understood why Marti Noxon became the whipping boy
(set on a scarifical stone) of the fan community. She is responsible
for so many vital pisodes of the show from Surprise to BBB to
IOHEFY to The Wish to The Prom to Wild At Heart to Into The Woods
to Bargaining to Villians that her position as the ME writer that
fans love to berate never made much sense, especially when you
consider how absoutely crucial Whedon considers her to the show's
success.
I understood how several episodes of hers get under people's skin
such as Beauty & The Beasts and Wrecked but looking at the overall
body of work, it's hard to fathom the intense scorn she receives
in some quarters.
I've always suspected that in part it was because she was the
writer with the least connection to the fan community. She never
posts on boards & seems to have no interest in that kind of interaction
with the fans which makes her the ideal mark to vent frustrations
on for the BTVS community.
[> [> On Marti Noxon
-- Kenny 13:36:38 06/08/03 Sun
Well, I think the reasons are two-fold. First of all, while you
are correct in stating that she's written critical episodes, some
people question the quality of those episodes.
More importantly, though, many people believe that there was a
large drop in quality once she became an excutive producer. The
general feeling amongst Marti-bashers is that JW became much less
involved with Buffy and that MN was much more responsible for
the tone of the show, the pace of overall seasons, etc. So, while
she may have written some good/great episodes before (BBB is one
my favorites), she was nowhere near as good at guiding the show,
and the result was a product inferior to previous seasons.
Oh, and then there's the whole Riley thing. Apparently, MN's made
comments to the effect that Riley was shaped quite a bit by her
husband, and a very vocal segment of the online population found
him quite dull. I'm going to guess that a large segment of the
anti-Rileys were B/A fans, but I could be mistaken. And the fact
that Spike fans view her as anti-Spike (and really dislike her
for "Seeing Red"). A number of viewers don't think she
comes off too well in interviews (gotta say myself, there she's
made some comments about characterization that did seem a little
bone-headed). Some people think the issues from her life that
she brought to the table to explore were nowhere interesting as
interesting as Joss's. And some people thing that Sam, Riley's
wife from "Into the Woods", is Marti pulling a Mary
Sue (granted, Sam really was a Mary Sue character). OK, so the
reasons are much more than two- fold.
One thing she did say once that rubbed me the wrong way was describing
_Buffy_ as _Party of Five_ with monsters. Which, while it still
had more intelligence, is kind of what it became plot-wise through
later seasons (especially season 6). The first three seasons were
anything but. I think that comment did show that she had a basic
conceptual difference of the show than I, as a viewer, had. At
the very least, she could have called it _My So-Called Life_ with
monsters.
[> [> [> Re: On Marti
Noxon -- Yellow Bear, 13:53:29 06/08/03 Sun
First, what is a 'Mary Sue'? Also, Miss Finn appears in AYW in
S6, not 'Into The Woods'.
The Party Of Five comment is the kinda comment you make when trying
to sell the show to non-watchers, give them a shorthand description
they can use. While this may not be the best description, I can
hardly fault her for trying to sell the show like this. I would
also say that My So Called Life/Party of Five thing is splitting
hairs.
I can see how people's perceptions of problems with the last few
seasons are laid at her feet and this may come down to a difference
of opinion of latter seasons quality level.
Still, my point was the amount of vitrol laid on her seems wildly
out of proportion but things that are wildly out of proportion
are what the BTVS community is all about.
[> [> [> [> Re:
On Marti Noxon -- Kenny 15:55:10 06/08/03 Sun
Mary Sue--a fanfic character who is pretty much perfect, lacking
all of the character flaws of the show's regulars. Sometime's
they'll magically appear and have information for the characters
(such as "Buffy, there's a special floppy disk by Miss Calendar's
desk"). Sometimes they'll just save the day with their perfectness.
Oftentimes, Mary Sue will end up with whatever character the writer
has a crush on. Basically, Mary Sue is a proxy for the writer.
Now, in the case of "As You Were" (and many thanks for
correcting my brain fart), the point was that Riley/Sam are extremely
happy, whereas the Scoobs are stuck in Not-So- Sunnydale. And
that's an incredibly valid point, and I don't see any problem
devoting an ep to that. But the writers really did bend over backwards
to make Sam more than just a nice person. I gotta say that she
annoyed the heck outta me. I'm not saying that she was written
as a Marti proxy at all, but if you're inclined to Marti-bashing,
it's not a hard leap to make.
I hope you didn't interpret my message as my stating that I believed
all those things--that's just a summary of the most popular MN-criticisms
I've come across in the last four years. My parenthetical notes
are my own views.
That said, here's my personal view on her as writer, and extrapolations
into her role as EP. I really like some of the eps she's written
(BBB, as I said earlier, "The Wish", "The Prom"),
but she doesn't seem to me to have the strongest grasp of metaphor.
Her better episodes are quite straight-forward. They make a point,
no question about it, but the point stems from the actions of
the characters themselves. It's the metaphor-driven episodes where
she seems to drop the ball (Willow-addiction, AtS' "She",
"Beauty and the Beasts"). Her metaphors tend to be mixed,
and they're often barely metaphors at all. They just tend to be
quite heavy-handed.
I'm a huge fan of the metaphors of seasons 1-3. It's what made
Buffy to me. And although there are definitely things to enjoy
in later seasons, I stopped enjoying the show for the overall
arcs and looked more forward to individual episodes. It makes
sense to me, anyway, that Marti's sensibilities in writing fiction
influenced the shift away from metaphor and towards a more straight-plot
oriented style. And I don't think that's necessarily one of ME's
strengths. I don't think that, in terms of mechanics and pacing,
they knew how to switch to the more plot-heavy style of the show.
And that's a team effort, so you can't single out Marti and say
that it's her fault. But I do think that, because of her style
of writing, the show was influenced in that direction.
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: On Marti Noxon -- Yellow Bear, 21:10:30 06/08/03
Sun
I always took Sam's perfection (and she is perfect) as a deliberate,
and very funny, joke. She is Buffy's idealization of herself during
the B/R relationship and when contrasted with where Buffy is at
the moment, the result is quite funny. At least I thought so.
Willow's final line about Sam is one of my favorite moments of
S6, and I love S6 (although the middle episodes are a little muddled).
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Re: On Marti Noxon -- LeeAnn, 06:46:36 06/09/03
Mon
Since I liked Season 6, thought it was the most deep, complex
and rewarding of any Buffy season (unless you were watching for
Willow), I like Marti and I'll give her series a watch if it is
picked up mid-season. I like the dark angsty stuff and thought
Spuffy was very hot. I like Season 6 even more now that I compare
it with Season 7 which is dead last for me. I would have preferred
more Marti inspired kinky sex and angst to what we got, which
was mostly a season long snoozefest that not even Spike was allowed
to save.
[> [> [> Re: On Marti
Noxon -- Yellow Bear, 14:01:28 06/08/03 Sun
Is there really a lot of debate on the quality of the episodes
I listed? The majority of these are certified BTVS classics from
my understanidng, which means Ms. Noxon has all most half a seaon
of classic episodes under her name. Heck, I didn't mention the
criminally underrated 'Buffy Vs. Dracula' just because I didn't
want to pick anything there's a lot of debate over.
[> [> [> [> Re:
On Marti Noxon -- Kenny, 16:55:27 06/08/03 Sun
Off the top of my head...IOHEFY really seemed to polarize fans,
long before said polarization was the standard. I seem to remember
quite a few people refer to it as melodramatic schlock. "Into
the Woods" is another. There were a number of people angry
that Buffy went running off after Riley at the end. Plus, that
was one of the first really blatant uses of Xander as the "seeing
guy", and it struck some people as poor characterization.
I believe the biggest problem people had was that it exonorated
Riley for his vampire-hooker thing and put alot of the blame on
the relationship failing on Buffy's shoulders, instead of making
it a more 50/50-they-were-both- wrong type of deal. Which feeds
into people's criticism (not saying that they're right) of Riley
being MN's hubby-proxy, so he has to come out of it looking good.
"Wild at Heart" I think the biggest reason people didn't
like this ep was that Oz left, which is hardly MN's fault. The
most valid complaint that I remember is how she wrote Willow.
Basically, someone broke down that Marti-written Willow-angst
seems were more over-the-top than Willow-angst scenes by other
writers, and this was a prime offender, being a Willow-centric
ep.
At the risk of sounding anti-Marti (and I know that's happening
through this thread, and I'm really not) I think it's important
to break down why some of those classics are classics. "Surprise"
-- Angel loses his soul. That's one of the most important moments
ever for the Buffyverse. Let's be realistic. It's the catalyst
for the next 5.5 seasons of Buffy and 4+ seasons of Angel. It
wouldn't matter if the episode sucked (which it didn't), it'd
still be a classic. And much of that is due to the payoff if "Innocence".
Not to belittle Marti's contribution, but that episode would have
been a classic no matter who wrote it, and I'll go out on a limb
and suppose that JW is responsible for that little twist.
Bargaining/Villians -- both are fine episodes, but classics because
of the important plot elements, not necessarily because of how
those elements were written. Again
BBB -- One of my favorite episodes ever. Definitely a classic
in and of itself. Marti deserves every good thing said about that
episode and more.
The Prom -- A really good episode. A classic because of the umbrella
scene. Good payoff there. Honestly, without that, it would have
been an above-average episode, but not a classic. It's amazing
what a difference one scene can make.
Bargaining/Villians -- both are fine episodes, but classics because
of the important plot elements, not necessarily because of how
those elements were written. Again, I don't want to sound like
I'm taking away from Marti's contribution, but those are such
important episodes, that any competent member of the writing staff
could have been assigned that episode and it'd still be a classic.
Those are the type of episodes that, I imagine anyway, are planned
out by the whole team (in Bargaining's case, probably a hell of
a lot by Joss) and the writer fleshes it out (unlike, say BBB,
which is really the writer's creation). Granted, I couldn't see
Jane Espenson writing either of those eps. I really wish Drew
Goddard had been around for Bargaining. I bet that would have
been nifty. Marti did a good job with them, but I don't think
she's the only one who could have.
What would be more telling is to take all of the writers' non-
turning-point-explosively-important episodes and compare those.
I just think that there's a tendency to credit specific writers
too much for turning-point episodes. Those episodes have very
specific tasks, and they don't necessarily belong just to the
credited writer (whereas "Superstar" is very much a
Jane Espenson creation, "BBB" is a Marti creation, and
so on).
[> [> [> [> I would
hope there is -- Doug, 21:05:17 06/09/03 Mon
The episodes you mentioned are among those that are, IMHO, substandard
episodes. I find most of MN's episodes uninspired and she attracts
my ire for her role as producer in the "Magic- crack"
storyline, as well as the AR; placed by her to make sure everybody
took a certain view of the Spike/Buffy relationship.
[> [> [> Re Party
of Five -- Rahael, 14:08:53 06/08/03 Sun
if Marti did make that comment, she was probably following JJoss'
lead, because Joss in his commentary to Innocence said that Party
was a brilliant show which never failed to leave him in tears,
but it lacked rocket launchers. Buffy didn't have that problem.
What perplexes me about the Marti criticism is that people use
her as a lightning conductor for Joss, criticising her for comments
that they never would have criticised Joss for.
For example, I thought Wrecked was a terrible episode. But if
S6 is an example of what happened when Marti was at the helm and
S7 is an example of what happened when she wasn't around (she
was away doing stuff for her new series, apparently), give me
Marti at the helm.
A lot of the flack about Marti's husband and her personal issues
don't come from anything she's said, but comments by James Marsters,
which were not intended to be uncomplimentary to Marti, but were
quoted by fans as being so.
Personally, I think Marti tends to underplay the seriousness of
the show sometimes at the interviews while Joss jokingly says
that he is going to talk about it as if it were Citizen Kane,
and yet, Joss can come up with some really bone headed stuff and
Marti can come with some very revealing, nuanced commentary. I
think some writers get away with stuff other writers can't.
If you had asked me before Season 7, I would be a lot harder on
Marti than I'm being right now. BUt having seen S7, I find it
very difficult to lay the loose pacing and the soggyness of S6's
middle episodes at her door, because for me, Season 7 was like
that most of the way through apart from Selfless, Killer in Me
and Storyteller.
I hardly need reiterate that this is my personal opinion - for
me, the melange of S6 just cohered better in the long run (especially
in its bravery and emotions) than S7. I am aware that other people
think differently.
[> [> [> [> Re:
Re Party of Five -- s'kat, 15:59:51 06/08/03 Sun
I think I agree with you on this one.
(Except I hated Storyteller and preferred LMPTM, and you hated
LMPTM and loved Storyteller. LOL! A demonstration of how two fans
can look at the same series, love similar episodes, yet, yet have
a completely different and intense emotional response to at least
two of them. In short - we are never going to get a consensus
on these shows.)
But if S6 is an example of what happened when Marti was at
the helm and S7 is an example of what happened when she wasn't
around (she was away doing stuff for her new series, apparently),
give me Marti at the helm.
Yep. Agreed. S6 is amongst my favorites: Afterlife, OMWF, Life
Serial, Bargaining I & II, Tabula Rasa, Smashed, Dead Things,
Normal Again, Flooded, and even Seeing Red . Outside of CWDP,
Selfless, BY, LMPTM, Sleeper, NLM, not so much on S7. And I've
almost finished watching it twice.
What I think happened is Joss Whedon got burned out on Buffy's
story. He had hoped to hand it over to MArti, who did well with
20something stuff - but it didn't work as well as he hoped. (Although
ironically, the darkest and most controversial episodes were actually
Whedon's ideas: Dead Things, Smashed, Bargaining, Tara's Death
in SR).
What got Marti in trouble wasn't Marsters comments, actually they
helped a little. It was her interviews - I remember what happened
online last year whenever Marti did a Wanda or Online interview
- Oh my Lord - Masq actually went so far as to declare it a dead
topic and started deleting posts at one point - I think sometime
in February of 2001? I know Buffy Cross and Stake did. People
went nuts. And it wasn't about Riley.
It was about drug addiction (Willow), bad-boyfriends (Spike),
and getting past high-school puppy love (B/A).
This enraged numerous fans. Whedon is a little more careful. And
Fury, the co-exec producer, didn't help matters. (Fury has a biting
wit, very dark, black humor - which will either make you laugh
or want to bash him over the head with a two-by- four.)
Personally, I liked Marti. She's written some of my favorite episodes:
What's My Line part II, Surprise, BBB,
Into the Woods, to name a few. And I found her exploration of
abusive relationships interesting. (Wrecked never bugged me, I
liked it far more than Storyteller, Empty Places, Help, Double
Meat Palace, and As You Were.) But then, I never hated Riley.
(Except in As You Were - where we got PodRiley and BotSam. But
I blame Doug Petrie for AYW, he wrote and directed it not Marti.
I loved him in Into the Woods and some of the early S4 episodes.)There's
only a couple episodes Marti's done that I think were horrid:
Bad Eggs S2, She Ats, BoTN with Doug Petrie.
That said? I don't think she worked well on Angel the series -
she wrote SHE, that's the only one she wrote and I believe directed.
It didn't work and is listed by many fans as the Worst episode
on either show. I think she chose to leave ME to do Still Life,
I never got the impression it was anything other than voluntary.
Just my opinion. ;-)
sk
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: Re Party of Five -- Yellow Bear, 16:57:05 06/08/03
Sun
Raheal, thanks for reminding me about Whedon's Po5 quote. I knew
I had heard that refrence before but could not place it.
As for Marti's interviews, I remember the B/A puppy love quote
and it, in all fairness, was more in reference to B/A shippers
being people who still have pictures of there HS boyfriends up
on the wall & not that B/A were puppy lovers (ugh, gross). I read
that statement & laughed my head off (cause it was so true) then
I was immeadiatly thinking that there was gonna be one enormous
uproar over it. Glad to hear that I was right.
By the way, Marti didn't direct 'She' for Ats. It was David Greenwalt.
Also, no way is that the worst episode of Ats if only for the
amazing Angel fantasy dance sequence.
[> [> [> [> [>
Why I love Marti... -- Rob, 17:11:01 06/08/03 Sun
What's My Line
Surprise
Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered
I Only Have Eyes for You
Beauty and the Beasts
The Wish
Consequences
The Prom
Living Conditions
Wild at Heart
New Moon Rising
Into the Woods
Forever
Bargaining
Bring On the Night (despite many fans' opinions, one of my season
7 faves, the Spike-drowning attempts notwithstanding)
...and of course, for her appearance as the Parking Ticket Lady
in OMWF.
Dead Man's Party, Doomed, Goodbye, Iowa, Buffy vs. Dracula, Villains,
and Wrecked were all flawed, but each had aspects I enjoyed.
Bad Eggs and She, I forgive. ;o)
Rob
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Re: Why I love Marti... -- Alison, 18:39:20 06/08/03
Sun
At last, someone else who appreciates Beauty and the Beasts. I
too love Marti. She may have her flaws, as all writers do, but
she never fails to make the most of a given character's emotional
arc.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Re: Why I love Marti... -- Kenny, 19:08:33
06/08/03 Sun
I just finished reading the transcript for "Beauty and the
Beasts", and it just hit me that it reads like a "pre-She"
to me. It's got some really good moments in it, such as how Oz
deals with the possibility of killing someone, Willow's reactions
to that, Cordy (Marti was my favorite Cordy-writer), but for all
that...
I know it's a girl-power show, but I don't like the "All
men are beasts message." I'm a man, so I take it kind of
personally. Even on Angel, a testosterone show, they'd never do
an "all women are fill-in-the-blank" episode. The attempt
to make it right in BatB is to say that "Yeah, all men are
beasts, but some do a much better job of controlling it."
I guess my biggest gripe is that, if a man is not being a beast
in this episode, he's drawn as ineffectual. Giles is shot by a
tranq. Xander falls asleep when he's supposed to be watching Oz
(I was proofing this and originally wrote "...watching Buffy"
and started laughing, cause, man, Xander would never fall asleep
watching Buffy). Scott just kinda sits there. Oz is completely
in defense-mode with Pete until he wolfs out, at which point he
acknowledges that the beast is what's going to allow him to act.
All male actions in that episode, even the "good" ones,
such as Angel saving Buffy from Pete, are a result of the "beast"
inside each one of them. There's absolutely no balance. I don't
have a problem with the same theme being brought up with Caleb
because he was shown to be the exception--the guy was an obvious
loon, and there were strong male characters such as Spike, Xander,
and Wood to help offset that. No such effort was made in BatB,
and it grates on me to no end because of that. When I first watched
the episode I thought that Faith's statement from the opening
was going to be overturned, but they let it stand. Heck, they
supported it. At that point, it's not about girl power, it's about
propogating a myth about males (I was going to say male bashing,
but I think that's too strong a term). It's the low point of S3
for me.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> Re: Why I love Marti... -- Alison, 19:28:38
06/08/03 Sun
I can see how from a male point of veiw, BatB can be seen as offensive.
However, season three was largely about the beast the lay within
Buffy and Faith. I thought this episode was an interesting exploration
of the same theme, and laid the grounds for the rest of the season.
It adressed the fear both Buffy and Faith had of their beastial
natures. Yes, BatB was hardly subtle, and it could have been less
offensive, but while the idea of besiality being solely male isn't
overturned in this episode, the season as a whole clearly refutes
that idea.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> Re: Why I love Marti... -- Yellow
Bear, 20:51:56 06/08/03 Sun
I've always read BatB as far more interesting than just a critique
of male violence. Namely, that the beast is inside all men but
through love & devotion (such as Oz & Angel) it can be tamed but
even so, the beast will always be there. You can agree or disagree
with that but it's certainly not a simple concept.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> Marti continually uses the 'good male/bad
male' motif... -- Rochefort, 21:04:09 06/09/03 Mon
And it just makes me gag. Constantly she has female characters
in this really innane immature struggle over the "bad boy"
who they WANT and the good ineffectual guy they should want. I
mean what a cliche. How simplistic. I can't even get THROUGH "beauty
and the beast" or the episode where Oz turns into a werewolf
because of Willow. Why does he turn into a werewolf because of
Willow? It's just like Beauty and the Beasts, it's totally gag
worthy. I tried to watch them a number of times and just turn
them off. This undercurrent in many Buffy episodes was really
turning ME off, and then I investigated to see where it's coming
from, and it's all the Marti episodes, and THAT'S when I started
dreading her episodes. Then season six came along, Marti-palooza,
and she got to play out all those issues she apparantly had in
her own life with reconciling what turns her on with her image
of herself. And we have to see Buffy crying because she just can't
stop having sex with Spike. I mean this "bad boy" stuff
wasn't interesting in SINGLE PORTION Marti episodes, and then
it was eeepisode after eeepisode. And hence, my Marti distaste.
BTVS has some REALLY nuanced portrayals of masculinity. Joss has
said he is nearly as interested in Xander's reaction to Buffy
as Buffy herself, and Spike has constructed and reconstructed
his masculinity over and over again. And it wasn't just the cliched
non-subtlety of her episode messages, but the pacing and sloppiness
as well. And I've said over and over it was the terrible execution
of season six that made it so bad, more than the stupid drug addict
story lines. And I disagree with Rahael, I think season seven
was a vast improvement. BUT To balance, Marti's really really
funny, and despite the fact that many on this board know I dislike
her episodes, I often find that when I quote some single one shot
line that I find incredibly funny, it's a Marti line. Like the
blue berry scone line or the "cup of tea cup of tea"
line or the "put that mazipan in your pie plate" line.
But to conclude, I agree with Kenny that there are ZILLIONS of
very valid reasons that many fans hide when they see Marti coming.
Oh by the way, my current favorite delivery of a line on BTVS
is Giles giving Jane's line as he stumbles to stand up and walks
towards the camara "We have to save Buffy from Hansel and
Gretal."
Rochefort
[> [> [> [> [>
You left out Entropy -- Sophist, 17:20:55 06/08/03 Sun
Which I would add to your list of excellent S6 eps. Of course,
I'd delete Flooded and SR, but we can't agree on everything.
I did notice, however, that your list carefully (?) excluded every
single MagiCrack episode. Don't know if that was deliberate or
not, but I think it speaks volumes about S6. Taking this as a
starting point, I'm inclined to agree with Kenny that metaphor
is not MN's strong suit.
I do find it interesting that so many people want to blame ABJ
(anybody but Joss) for aspects of the show they don't like. I
might as well be consistent and say that I don't blame Marti any
more than I blame SMG or JM. I do think it fair to assess her
strengths and weaknesses as a writer/director/producer, but only
where we have sufficient information. We can identify which episodes
she wrote, so that's easy. Identifying what she did in other roles
is very difficult and I don't think we have enough information
to pass judgment.
Rating seasons is as a whole has always struck me as problematic.
Doesn't mean I don't do it; just that I'm not sure what the standards
are. At the risk of losing everyone's attention (except PepTech),
let me put this in baseball terms.
Baseball players are often called "great" for 2 different
reasons. Player A had 4-5 seasons which were extraordinary, ones
which you could call all-time greats, but the rest of his career
had some weak or disappointing seasons. Player B had 10- 15 years
of above-average to excellent play and no real weak ones, but
no single season which really qualifies as extraordinary. How
do you compare them?
The anwer is, you really can't because you're comparing 2 different
things. For Player A you're talking about what we call peak value.
For Player B you're talking about career value. Hidden assumptions
about this result in lots of fruitless arguments.
I see the BtVS seasons like this. To me, and this is JMHO, S4
and S6 are like Player A. They have a large number of extraordinary
episodes, but many that are disappointing and some important story
arcs that are weak. By contrast, like Player B, S3 and S7 have
no episodes that I personally rate as extraordinary (though CwDP
comes close), but no real clunkers either; the overall storyline
is strong and they are well- paced.
If you gave me a choice of individual episodes, I'd clearly choose
most from S4 and S6. If I could only watch a whole season, S3
or S7 would get the nod.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Seasons and rankings - more extended list -- s'kat,
23:05:51 06/08/03 Sun
Oops..forgot Entropy. (ton's of typos, no time to proof)
Okay did this on another board, so will do it again for you.
I actually have two separate rankings, one is an emotional subjective
one and one is an objective one. The emotional subjective one
is for the seasons that obsessed me, that I rewatch, that hit
my emotional core and made me want to write about it. The objective
is for the ones that well
worked critically on all levels, the story arc worked, the stand
alones worked plotwise and metaphor wise, but I didn't emotionally
respond to them in quite the same way.
Oh as a side note - Btvs remains probably the only tv series that
I have dutifully taped every single episode and rewatched every
single episode more than four times and analyzed every single
episode from a narrative, metaphorical, literal, and critical
standpoint. It's also one of the few tv series that I watched
without interuption from the moment it aired to its final, AND
watched the spin-off. On top of that it is the only tv series
I've ever bothered to post on line about - actually it's the only
thing period I've bothered to post on a board or chat room about.
So that said - I think it's safe to say I liked all the seasons
better than anything else out there. ;- )
Subjective list:
Ranked from favorite to least favorite.
1. Season 6/ Season 5 (This is a tie, I honestly can't choose
between them)
2. Season 2
3. Season 4
4. Season 3
5. Season 7
6. Season 1
Season 6 - because it is the riskiest series of tv shows I've
ever seen anyone attempt to do on TV. I was on the edge of my
seat wondering how far they'd go with it. What they'd do with
it. How they'd conclude it. And I was on spoilers in S6. It's
a rare thing for me not to be able to predict what will happen
ahead of time in a narrative television arc. S6 was unpredictable.
And astonishing. They literally risked everything. They did an
abusive S&M relationship with their heroine. They turned a well-loved
character into a villain. They made the heros the bad guys at
times. They allowed a hero to engage in a sexual relationship
with a grey possibly villainous character and her long term nemesis.
And they kept it all ambiguous. They didn't preach or tell me
what to think once. Not really.
I could literally see every episode from three angles. I only
can do that in good theater or books, rare on tV. Did they pull
it off? Not entirely. Dropping metaphors here and there didn't
work. And yes, I didn't like the magic as addiction idea - it
disappointed me, yet - there were times in which it seemed maybe
it was meant to be power as addiction.
Episodes I loved in S6?
Bargaining 1 & 2
Afterlife
Flooded (I identified with Buffy's job problems and loved the
Giles/Willow scene - Ripper and DarkWillow - wow. Now if only
they'd continued in that vien)
Life Serial (Mummy hand, the social construction theme,
the Kitty Poker)
ONce More with Feeling - a musical that makes fun of itself
and advances the plot.
Tabula Rasa (French Farce flipping to the sad and the touching
romantic endings)
Smashed (my mouth dropped open and I went online and haven't left
since - you can blame Smashed for my posting on boards..;- ) )
Dead Things (now that episode played with the concepts of abusive
relationships and sex in ways I've never seen anyone try on network
TV. It was beautiful and ugly at the same time and very disturbing
and it turns me on while simultanously turning me off. Repulsion/Attraction
personified. )
Normal Again
Entropy
and yes Seeing Red which I both hate and love in equal measure.
Seeing Red - god, I can barely stand to watch it. Yet I can't
look away. It's so painful - it hurt to watch and I was spoiled
for it. I knew everything ahead of time. Still hurt. The acting?
Razor sharp. Marsters blew me out of the water. Alyson Hannigan
had never been better. NB did some of his best work. It was like
watching a train wreck or the climatic act of a Wagnerian Opera.
Episodes that I didn't like but had their moments:
Wrecked - the Spike/Buffy scenes at the beginning and in his crypt
and on the street - riveting.
Willow's scene in the bedroom with the magically triggered dress
- beautiful use of metaphor
All The Way - Buffy/Spike in the crypt and in the basement of
the Magic Box, Xander and Anya's scenes and Xander's scenes with
Giles, the Willow/Tara moments, and finally the fight with the
vampires.
As You Were - the very last scene in Spike's crypt where she breaks
up with him and the scene in the bathroom with Anya and Xander
reminiscent of another bathroom scene in Yoko Factor.
Double Meat Palace - Xander almost choking on a burger when he
thinks its human meat, the Anya/Halfrek scenes
Gone - The moments in the kitchen with spike/buffy, the
scene with Xander/Anya/Invisible Buffy, the scene after
Xander leaves btw Spike and Buffy.
OAFA - the Halfrek scenes
Villains - the scenes where Willow took the text into herself
and confronted Warren in the woods, Dawn's discovery of Tara,
Spike's journey to the Lurker demon.
Two to Go - Giles showing up at the end, Willow's speech to Buffy
and Dawn and how she turns Racks place to the Magic Box, Her fight
with Buffy - great fight scene - I've been waiting 6 years for
it. (Of course the fact I was rooting for Willow instead of Buffy,
probably was a problem). The scene with Rack.
Grave - Spike's scene with the bugs and getting his soul,
Giles and Willow's battle (also waiting 6 years for it),
Anya and Giles' scenes together, Jonathan saving Xander (maybe
in Two to Go??)
What I didn't like? The plotting from Villains to Grave was slow.
Xander/Willow didn't move me like it should have.
Willow's addiction motif seemed a little cliche and afterschool
specialish. The AR way too intense and I still believe unnecessary,
cliche, soap operaish and a short cut, I expect more from the
writers. (Plus I did not like the fact that I went into the scene
feeling sympathetic for the wrong character, and rooting for the
wrong one - that is something that still haunts me as a woman
and someone familar with the law and cases on this and I still
believe conveyed a bad message. It wasn't necessary and they shouldn't
have done it. They've admitted as much..oddly enough. But hey
- so don't want to debate that whole thing again, do we?? ;-)
Death of Tara ? (I knew it would happen, but think the way they
depicted it could have been smoother, and more sensitive...I honestly
think they were just clueless.) Gone - haphazard writing and directing.
Wrecked - the Willow scenes seemed laughable in retrospect and
the monster? Stupid. All The Way - the Dawn storyline was too
cliche and didn't work for me. But overall? I appreciate the risks
they took.
Season 5 - Loved it. Fool for Love, The Gift, The Body, Into the
Woods, Out of My Mind, Crush, Tough Love, Family, Triangle, Real
Me, Checkpoint, Forever, Intervention,
The Replacement, Buffy vs. Dracula, outside of maybe four episodes
- every one moved me. I loved the arc. I loved the villain. I
loved the unpredictability. It's the only season that contained
two episodes that moved me to tears. The Body is the only BTVS
episode that I sob in every time I watch it. The Gift, outside
of maybe Becoming, is the only one that made me cry at a finale.
It also introduced me to my favorite character in the history
of my experience watching tv. Prior to this show, this character
only existed in my head or in my own fiction - the archetype of
the scorned/rejected unrequited lover. The existentialist hero
who goes against his own nature, destiny, fate, everything to
be something else to help someone he loves, even if everyone including
his own nature is against him. They took the villain falling for
the hero to a level I'd never seen anyone quite attempt, above
cliche and it wowed me. I didn't know what Spike was going to
do. It was always the opposite of what I expected. I had no clue
if they'd redeem him or if he'd do the typical thing and be the
villain and do in the heroine. I was riveted and obsessed.
I certainly didn't expect him ever to win her or even get to be
with her. People call Spike Fonzie? I don't get that, to me Angel
is Fonzie (and I like Fonzie btw). Spike is well James Dean in
Giant and Rebel without a Cause and East of Eden...but hey that's
just me ;-)
The Body - oh god what an episode. The best Whedon has done.
It is the only episode of a tv series or movie that in my humble
opinion got death right - finally. IT got how I felt about death
and dying and grief and funerals better than anything I'd ever
read or seen. It still blows me away.
Fool For Love - riveting and dark and romantic with more twists
and turns than you can imagine and so much character depth and
on more than one character. Amazing.
Into the Woods - layers upon layers - we get depth on Anya, Xander,
Buffy, Riley, Spike...it's beautiful. My favorite moments? Xander's
speech to Anya, Spike and Riley's discussion, Buffy's realization
of what Riley's been doing.
Forever - scared me silly, great twisty re-telling of the classic
ghost story the Monkey's Paw. And wonderful character development.
The low points? Shadow (and even that had some good moments, Riley
with the vamp, Riley with Dawn, Riley with Spike) Listening to
Fear (creepiest and grossest monster for awhile and also interesting
metaphors), Spiral (have to say I did like the Night of The Living
Dead twist - with the Knights attacking them. Also the road trip
was fun)
Weight of the World (the Spike/Xander, Spike/giles, and the
whole Ben is Glory, Glory's Ben joke was great. Also loved Dawn's
wrestling match with Ben/Glory. )
Yep S5 worked where S6 didn't. S6 was riskier.
Season 4 - fantastic stand-alones, probably some of Whedon's best
work was in this season. Who Are You. Hush.
Restless. Superstar. New Moon Rising. Wild at HEart. The Initiative.
Something Blue. The Freshman. Harsh Light of Day. Yoko Factor.
Primeval. Fear Itself. Pangs. This Year's Girl.The New Man.
Hush/Who Are You and Restless - all make major risks and use gimmicks
that would cause most series to jumptheshark - it just showed
how brilliant and creative this one was.
An episode with no dialogue through most of it and creepiest villains.
Two actresses switching personalities and roles. An episode completely
in stream of consciousness dreamtime.
Yoko Factor - did everything Empty Places did wrong, right.
Showed how people can split apart over a series of minor things.
And played with the IAgo idea.
New Moon Rising - beautiful way of writing out OZ..and fully launching
Willow and Tara. Still love that last scene about Istanbul.
Fear Itself - made me laugh - every single character utilized
and the metaphor regarding their fears? PErfect.
Harsh Light of Day - interesting take on the morning after and
casual sex.
The lowpoints? The I in Team, Goodbye Iowa, Where the Wild Things
Are, Living Conditions and Doomed. But each of these had cool
things as well: I in Team (Buffy vs. Walsh, Spike vs. the Initiative
and the SG digging out his chip, hilarous,) Goodbye Iowa - the
SG slumber party and Spike scene at the beginning telling riley
to kill her. Where the wild things are (Spike/anya, Giles' singing,
Xander/anya, Willow/tara), Doomed (Spike/Xander/Willow scenes).
Now Season 3 works as number one on the Objective list - there's
abosolutely nothing I can objectively and critically find wrong
with it. Except - it just doesn't move me emotionally upon re-watching.
Don't know why. Maybe because the kids vs. authority theme didn't
hit me emotionally? The B/A relationship dragged for me in this
season and disappointed me. I'd been into the relationship, but
by the time The Zeppo hit, lost interest. Upon first viewing I
loved it. Now? I find it dull and slow. Not sure why. I liked
X/W, Giles/Joyce, and loved Faith, the Mayor and Trick but it
doesn't move me emotionally.
It does contain some of my all time favorite episodes:
The Wish, Dopplegangeland, Lover's Walk, Enemies, Bad Girls, Consequences,
but it also contains episodes that don't do much for me upon re-watching:
Revealations, Anne,
Dead Man's Party, Gingerbread, Beauty and The Beasts,
Amends, Homecoming. And I was never a fan of The Zeppo.
Earshot - I was disappointed in, after all the hype, it's good,
moving, but not great. The Prom? Outside of the last scene? Doesn't
do much for me. There's a lot of good stuff in those episodes,
sure, but they didn't move me, they didn't speak to me. So objectively?
Great season. Subjectively? Okay.
Season 7 - didn't work on either level. YEs it has some of my
all time favorites: LMPTM, Beneath You, Selfless, CwDP,
Never Leave ME, Sleeper, and I did sort of like Dirty Girls, Get
it Done, First Date (in places), Killer in Me,
Him, STSP, Lessons, and End of Days...and yes, Chosen, Storyteller,
and the others had good parts. But..it didn't hit me emotionally
all the way through. I lost the umph in the end. Chosen should
have moved me. It didn't.
Why? Too many characters - diffused things. I never took to Andrew.
Just not a character that hits my emotions. Except to irritate
the heck out of me. Would have preferred more time have been spent
on Anya, Dawn, Willow, and Giles. Plus I'm a bonifed Giles fan
- I started watching the show for Giles - and I think everyone
will admit Giles was wasted this year. I hated Wood - had a severly
negative reaction to the character - to the extent that I felt
0 sympathy for him. None. Zippo. And I did not take to the SIT's,
any of them. They didn't move me.
Season 7 was weird. IT felt brilliant to start with. I saw so
much potential. Then the frigging SIT's showed up and Wood and
Andrew took more prominence, while Anya, Dawn, Xander, Giles,
Willow drifted to the background.
The plot felt increasingly slip-shod in places or hackneyed. With
convient plot devices dropped in out of nowhere - the scythe,
the guardians (which I liked, if they'd only expanded on them
and brought them up a little earlier), and oh yes the amulet.
The plans Buffy came up with made 0 sense. Faith's made 0 sense.
Kicking Buffy out and choosing ex-rogue slayer Faith made little
sense to me.
The Faith/Wood relationship seemed sort of convienent and didn't
work for me. Also at times, the plot seemed a little confusing.
Angel's appearence in End of Days and Chosen felt like a way of
appeasing the B/A shippers in the audience and didn't seem to
serve the story. And the Angel I loved in Home and Ats, seemed
to regress to S3/2 Angel which annoyed me. Also the kiss? Sorry
didn't work for me. Felt contrived.
Also made me think poorly of both characters. I would have preferred
an embrace or a desire to kiss...instead of actual kissage. The
S/B/A triangle? Too Dawnson's Creek, too soap operaish and it
took away from the episode.
But first half of the season, up to BoTN? I really actually liked.
With exception of maybe Help. I also enjoyed Get it Done, First
Date, LMPTM, Killer in Me, Dirty Girls,
and everything up to the last five minutes of End of Days.
And I enjoyed first 30 minutes of Chosen.
Episodes wasn't overly fond of - BoTN (I liked the sleepwalking
dream state feel of it), Showtime (the last scene was cool), Storyteller
(bits and pieces were okay,
the Xander/anya scenes not bad, the last scene with Andrew and
the video tape), Empty Places (I liked everything but the last
scene - that didn't work for me, still doesn't.),
Touched (liked everything but the sex scenes - seemed to be overkill).
Chosen I liked part of it, part of it seemed cheesy and off to
me. The final battle? Didn't work for me. Spike sacrificing himself
worked and didn't work at exactly the same time.
Actually - someone on another board crystalized my problems with
S7 rather well - when they said they felt the writers had compromised.
That's what I felt happened. It's almost as if after six seasons
of taking risks, they decided to play it safe in the final season.
They stopped taking risks. They came up with a female love interest
for Willow hoping to appease one group of fans, left it vague
and ambiguous on B/S and B/A so you could literally read it either
way, spread the power amongst all slayer potentials to reaffirm
female empowerment, didn't break up completely or put back together
completely X/A. It felt oddly empty to me, emotionally as a result.
That said, there were some strong things about the season, I liked
the FE as the big bad, I just feel they missed some opportunities
with it that might have both advanced the plot better and developed
characters - like having Ben show up, Jesse, Angelus, HArmony,
Snyder, Adam, The MAster, Glory, Trick, Jenny...any number of
people. And instead of Caleb? It might have been more interesting
to see the FE's agent being Hank Summers...as suggested by the
critic of slayage.com. Also Halfrek would have been a great one
for FE to show up as for both Anya and Spike. I also loved the
redemption arcs - but felt they closed some of them too soon,
Anya's, willow's, and Spike's could have been much richer. Why
didn't they address Spike's jacket more? I liked the B/S relationship
in 7, but felt it was at times confusing. I also liked the metaphors
- loved the metaphors and symbolism but I don't think they worked
well on the narrative level.
I liked Season 7.. I just didn't love it and I wanted to.
But hey again just my opinion.
Objective ranking:
1. 3 (best overall arc narrative wise and stand a lones)
2. 5 (best overall arc, a few great stand-alones, plot heavy)
3. 2 (best arc , few decent standalone)
4. 4 (great stand-alones, some good arcs. But uneven)
5. 6( bad arc, some good emotional arcs, bad plot wise)
6. 7 (plot arc not so good, but some good possibly excellent episodes
with in it)
7. 1 (choppy)
Okay not completely in depth, but hope it clarifies my views a
little.
Feel free to disagree or agree, just remember, only my humble
opinion. ;-)
sk
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Re: Seasons and rankings - more extended list
-- Yellow Bear, 00:18:17 06/09/03 Mon
Wow, that was epic.
I am only going to respond to your assertion that the wrting staff
admits that they made a mistake with the AR in 'Seeing Red.' I'
ve never read anyone on the staff assert that (and I do keep up
with these things). I would be greatly disappointed as I think
that sequence is absolutely brillant. The only way the B/S relationship
could evolve from what it was into something new. I remember watching
the scene and not being able to believe it was happening and at
the same time knowing that there was no other place they could
go.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> Re: Seasons and rankings - more extended
list -- s'kat, 07:38:29 06/09/03 Mon
I am only going to respond to your assertion that the wrting
staff admits that they made a mistake with the AR in 'Seeing Red.'
I' ve never read anyone on the staff assert that (and I do keep
up with these things). I would be greatly disappointed as I think
that sequence is absolutely brillant. The only way the B/S relationship
could evolve from what it was into something new. I remember watching
the scene and not being able to believe it was happening and at
the same time knowing that there was no other place they could
go.
It's very subtlely said. First according to the people who have
the S6 DVD's, the writing staff appears to skirt completely around
Seeing Red and never mentions the AR scene. They address everything
else. Suspicious to me.
Second in some of Whedon's interviews - he states things like,
well, we had to go there, or maybe it wasn't that clear, and maybe
we did go a little too dark there. (Somewhat defensive). Deknight
states it was all last minute and is also a little defensive.
Espenson states she had mixed feelings, but since he his a soulless
demon it worked. Marti avoids talking about it completely in later
interviews and will only address the Tara death.
And of course Marsters, while he defends the scene as being necessary,
consistently blames himself for it coming across as intense as
it did and giving them less room to manuevre, this leads me to
believe they thought they tripped a bit.
Particularly when I contrast it to how they discuss other things
they loved.
Again it's just my impression of what I've read in the interviews.
Yours could very well be the correct one.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> Re: Seasons and rankings - more extended
list -- Yellow Bear, 09:26:23 06/09/03 Mon
I've always taken the staff's discussions of S6 with a grain of
salt as they seem to be aware of how divesive it is among fans
and they really don't want to get in a salt in the wound situation
(oh, I must crave salt or something). As for the staff being defensive,
they always sound that way about S6 because the interviews are
almost always attacking ie the questions are "Fans really
hated it when...."
In general, I always try to remember that what I am hearing is
what the staff wants me to hear (Joss saying over & over again
how S7 was going to lighter) and not what they might actually
think about any given issue. They are trying to sell the show
and telling fans who hated S6 to stop whinning & grow up is probably
not the best publicity choice.
Also, I think if Whedon was willing to re-shoot the final scene
of BY then he would have certainly re-shot the AR scene if he
thought it went to far. Granted, production issuses may have prevented
that but it's such a pivotal scene that if they had problems with
it I have to think they would have re-shot.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> Re: Seasons and rankings - more extended
list -- Miss Edith, 16:43:14 06/09/03 Mon
Well regarding SR it has since come out that the scene originated
based on the experience of a female writer who tried to force
herself on her ex boyfriend when the relationship ended. The genders
were reversed for B/S which was bound to cause more controversy.
The writers seemed to underestimate that. Also Joss Wheaden recently
said the scene was meant to come across as Spike being more confused
because of previous sex games, and the situation get out of control.
James Marsters has also said the scene was not intended to be
anywhere near as violent as it was. James had a huge personal
problem with that scene. He has said that it is irrational but
every time he sees an actor taking part in filming a rape in a
film or on tv he gets really overwrought and would never accept
such a part. He felt very unhappy about being under contract,
and it made him realise he had little choice. He was go home shaking
and crying in the bath after filming the scene. He has said he
couldn't discuss the scene with Sarah beforehand, and the situation
just esculated so that both of them became very worked-up. One
of my problems with the AR was Sarah playing Buffy as a normal
woman who is about to be the victim of rape. Perhaps the behind
the scens tensions go some way towards explaining that?
Because of the AR James is now against B/S. He is saying he believes
Buffy loved Angel in the finale, and he wouldn't want any more
B/S due to the AR. At conventions when fans support Spike he tells
them to go for the nice guy (this is post season 7 even), and
he gets very chocked-up still when discussing the filming of the
bathroom scene. Both Joss and James have suggested that the AR
did not have the effect they were hoping for, the audience were
meant to be repulsed by Spike apparently.
I would have thought the directer would have stepped in if the
scene differed so radically from what was intended but both James
Marsters, and Joss seem to collabrate this. Basically the scene
became far far more controversial than I believe it was ever intended.
I don't think it's a stretch to wonder if the writers do regret
taking their characters to such a dark place. Particularly as
season 7 did take such few risks (with a love story for B/S attempted
without one kiss being exchanged even).
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Seasons and rankings - more
extended list -- LeeAnn, 02:51:22 06/10/03 Tue
One of my problems with the AR was Sarah playing Buffy as a
normal woman who is about to be the victim of rape. Perhaps the
behind the scens tensions go some way towards explaining that?
Yes exactly. It was so out of character for Buffy. If James said
that the scene as written was not nearly as violent that means
that it was Gellar's choice to overplay Buffy as a victim. Maybe
she resented being made the villian in DT and/or resented the
attention Marsters gets from the fans. I think the series jumped
the shark with the AR but if it had been played with less chewing
on the furniture from her I think it would have been less harmfull
to the series. I wonder if the director didn't step in because
she is the "star" or maybe she refused to do it any
other way. So they had no choice. If it was her it was a blow
against Sike and maybe James and could have hurt his career. And,
I think, did hurt the series.
I wonder how many years before we get a behind the scenes book
telling us exactly what was going on.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Re: Seasons and rankings - more extended list
-- CW, 06:29:53 06/09/03 Mon
It's interesting that your 'objective' list of seasons is a lot
closer to my personal list than your 'subjective' one. I'd definitely
rate season 7 higher than seaon 6, but except for seasons 7, 1
and 6 my mind can change about the order. The problem with season
six was precisely that emotion was all that carried it forward.
There would be nothing wrong with that except, the show that had
been an innovator for its entire run began to stoop to the level
of any night-time soap opera, using tintillation to cover up a
lack of movement on other story fronts. The point is, why watch
Buffy for emotional stuff when that's being done better with more
story (and more tastefully) over on the other channel on Gilmore
Girls? The numbers don't lie. More people were interested in watching
season 7 which got away from the heavy soap opera than season
6. The problem with season 7 is that while it had a number of
good episodes's, I can't think of one I would rank as great. Season
1's great episodes have paled compared to what followed, but not
having one really great episode was unprecedented. Like an athelete
who has a bad season after geting that big contract, Buffy never
quite got back on the old track after the changes that came with
moving to UPN. Blame it on Joss. Blame it on Marti. But, I do
think the show was written on a level more like it once was in
season 7.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> Episode by episode, I would personally rank
season 7 as the best... -- Rob, 08:58:58 06/09/03 Mon
My list of 5 star episodes:
1) Lessons
2) Beneath You
3) Same Time Same Place
4) Selfless
5) Conversations With Dead People
6) Bring On the Night
7) Get It Done
8) Storyteller
9) Lies My Parents Told Me
10) Dirty Girls
11) Empty Spaces
12) End of Days
13) Chosen
And the list of four star episodes:
1) Help
2) Sleeper
3) Never Leave Me
4) Bring On the Night
5) Potential
6) First Date
7) Touched
Three stars:
1) Showtime
2) The Killer in Me
Two stars:
1) Him
Obviously, this is just my own personal list. The funny thing
is, even I know that, as a complete season, there were some problems
in the story arc, mostly in how the supporting characters were
utilized, and how some threads were never followed through on,
leading to plot holes. But taking each episode one by one, I loved
most of them. Which is kind of a strange situation. I think the
best season, as far as story arc goes, is Season 5. But I remember
and love more individual episodes in this season than in that
season, even though the overall sweep isn't as good or nearly
as focused.
Rob
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> Rating the episodes...for S7 Btvs (more
in depth) -- s'kat, 11:38:04 06/09/03 Mon
Interesting I have different take.
I looked through S7 and made rankings based on the following criteria:
1. Rewatchability
2. Flow of the plot
3. Direction
4. Tightness of the writing
5. Utilization of the characters - did the plot flow logically
from them and was it emotionally true to them?
6. Entertainment value.
Again I have a subjective and objective list.
Storyteller for instance falls at the bottom on the subjective
list but near the top for the objective list.
Going through the episodes with that criteria, I came up with
two episodes that
I would objectively give a full 10/10 to. Only season besides
S1, I can say that about. Those episodes were:
Selfless
Conservations with Dead People
Objectively based on that criteria the top episodes of S7
were: Selfless, CwDP, Storyteller, Beneath You, and Lies My Parents
Told Me.
Subjectively? Selfless, CwDP, Beneath You, Lies My Parents Told
Me
Here's the list in order of most favored to least favored:
1. Selfless ( This episode in my humble opinion was perfect. It
took risks. It is highly rewatchable. It advanced at least four
character arcs and they came from a logical emotional place. Every
character was well utilized.
Every performance was top-notch, no slackers. Direction seemless.
It combined horror, tragedy, comedy and pathos in equal measure.
Exemplary effort. One of my all time top favorite episodes on
tv.)
2. Conversations with Dead People (Also a stellar episode.
But the scene with Dawn and Willow could have been a little tighter
in places. Also the Jonathan/Andrew scenes drug a bit and were
hard for casual viewers to follow. Had to explain it to my mother
and another friend twice. The buffy/holden and Spike scenes were
fantastic. The song pulling it all together haunting. The cinematography
seemless. And the reveal to Willow creepy. Also the Dawn portion
very scary. One of the best team efforts we've seen. Characters
all advanced and utilized. Although they left out two regulars
in order to focus on the recurring a sign of a weakness that would
creep into later episodes. The increased focus on Andrew at the
expense of Xander/Anya was in my humble opinion inexcusable but
clearly the writers had grown bored of X/A story and interested
in Andrew, that happens.)
3. Lies My Parents Told Me (Interesting episode - partly due to
it's emotional harshness and the risks it took. Probably the most
controversial episode to hit the boards since SR and certainly
spawned as many vigorous debates.
Direction wise? Seamless. Flowed beautifully. Characterwise?
At least four characters arcs were moved forward and from an emotional
base. Too risks with the characters. Built on the theme of the
slayer and how they deal with power. Also how people relate to
them. Was admittedly harsh in some of the metaphors and led to
possible misunderstandings of text.
Also the focus on a peripherial character over more established
ones this late in the series was not only risky but possibly ill-advised.
OTOH - the character was played by an outstanding and professional
actor and worked in some ways to further plot. Problems? I never
felt the issues left at the end of the episodes were well resolved
by later episodes, although you could argue that was realistic.)
4. Storyteller (no I didn't like it emotionally, but objectively?
It was interesting episode, took risks, and actually did a good
job developing a character and sticking to a pov. It also utlized
other characters effectively. I still found it overly self-indulgent
in places...but I accept the fact that this could just be my own
irritation with fanboy sensibilities. A good friend of mine, has
convinced me that the episode had a lot of objective merit. He's
good at convincing me of these things. ;-))
5. Beneath You (good episode, but choppy in places and often times
confusing to follow. The Spike bits were jarring although I think
that was deliberate. The last scene in the church felt like it
was written and directed by someone else, even before I knew it.
It stands out and is probably one of the best scenes Joss Whedon
has written and directed in anything all year, but it felt very
different in tone and direction from the rest of the episode.
Almost as if we were watching two separate episodes. The Anya/Xander
bits were wonderful. But the monster? Silly rip-off of Tremors.
And also an overtly obvious metaphor. The acting wonderful, except
for SMG, who at times seemed at a loss...she got blown off screen
by everyone else including the guest star. Those are the reasons
I can't quite give it more than four stars of 9/10)
6.Lessons - this is also an interesting episode, but it felt slow
in places also a little choppy. The Buffy/Dawn scenes at the school
- particularly the classroom? Made me cringe. OTOH - the scenes
where the ghosts were first introduced creeped me out. Also I
liked the guilt metaphor.
Both with the ghosts, and then with the nutty Spike.
Each character was advanced. The intro of the Big Bad was sufficiently
creepy. And the story had it's jaw-dropping moments. Unfortunately
the supporting or peripherial characters lacked luster and drug
it down. (Kit and Carlos)
7. End of Days - furthered the arcs of every character. Felt every
character got some good face time. Was comedic and emotionally
touching at the same time. And seemed to flow well cinematically
and writing wise. Better plotted both emotionally and arc wise
than other episodes. Problems - the guardian (which came out of
nowhere), the
appearance of Angel, and the last five minutes (which felt like
a cheesy soap cliche - I felt as if I had jumped from Btvs to
General Hospital and was watching Luke and Laura reunite...even
the amulet had that GH touch, with Spike in the role of the moody
Stefan (if you've never watched GH? Don't ask, you don't want
to know.)). But that said, the Spike/Buffy, Anya/Andrew, Xander/Dawn,
Willow/Giles moments were stellar.
8. Sleeper. (This episode did a fantastic job of exploring addiction
- far better than Willow's arc last year. The music selected for
the episode worked brilliantly. Spike's character was explored
more in depth. And it was one of the best performances I'd seen
from Gellar in a while. Cinematography and direction worked. Creepy
in places. Lots of nice twists. Good dialogue. Problems? Anya
seemed out of character especially after Selfless. The Spike/anya
scene while fun did not work characterwise, except for Spike.
Also Xander and some of the other characters seemed under- utilized,
missed opportunity there.)
9. Never Leave Me (while this episode made up for Sleeper's lack
of utilizing the other characters, it felt choppy in places. The
Andrew bits were more annoying than funny - again felt a little
self-indulgent - the writers obviously thought Tom Lenk was a
hoot and it came across in the episode, often taking me out of
the episode. However, the Spike/Buffy, Xander/Anya, Xander/Andrew
scenes were very well done and moved all three characters forward
emotionally and plot-wise. It also provided some closure to things
brought up in BY and Selfless. Willow and Dawn however were grossly
underutilized and even seemed a little out of character at certain
points.)
10. Get it Done (I loved the shadow puppet play and the special
effects - creepy and beautifully done. Each character was well-
utilized and moved forward emotionally and plot-wise. A good contrast
was made between Buffy being forced to access power and Willow/Spike
choosing to. Even the peripherial characters seemed to well-utilized
here, specifically Wood and Kennedy, without taking the spotlight
from the prinicipals. Also some nice twists and creeps.
Problems? Dawn's abilities seemed odd. A little over the top on
the raped by power metaphor. Buffy's speech a bit too much. But
biggest problem is the show was getting crowded and felt a little
diffused in places. I didn't care when Chole died, I should have.
I found Buffy aggravating.
Spike's reclamation of his coat and taking on of the demon was
confusing characterwise - half the audience thought he'd become
evil again, the other half was convinced he just reclaimed his
power. I personally like the ambiquity, but it did seem a little
too ambiguous - maybe because they made such a huge deal out of
the jacket yet never addressed it completely or resolved it??)
11. Dirty Girls (The Faith interactions with Spike, Buffy,
and to a smaller degree Giles and Dawn were right on. But instead
of having her interact with Xander or Willow or Giles more - they
went into the less than stellar Caleb plot. While Caleb was an
excellent metaphor for Buffy's negative male issues, he was also
a fairly cliche villain who didn't really move me. Too much time
was spent on him.
Also the flashbacks over Faith's past history and metanarration
were unnecessary and self-indulgent, and Andrew centric. Time
could have been better spent elsewhere.
The plan to go into the vineyard and take out Caleb made 0 sense.
The fact everyone blamed Buffy for it, made even less. Also one
too many speeches...got a little boring. Too much tell - need
more show. Saved by the Faith/Spike scene,
the Buffy/Faith scenes, and Xander's dream to some extent.)
12. Chosen ( Again good build up but the follow-through less than
stellar. Way too crowded an episode. The Faith/Wood sequence while
entertaining seemed unnecessary.
Very little time if any was spent on Xander or Anya - which was
necessary for her death scene. Again the focus shifted more towards
Andrew and away from Xander, making me wonder if Andrew had literally
become more interesting to the writers than Xander was. Spike/Buffy
scenes worked. The S/B/A triangle seemed a tad soap-operaish and
cliche, also didn't work that well, after two years of neither
A or B talking to each other. Angel's appearence felt very contrived
and his character seemed ill-served by it. I did however like
the fact that they got it out of the way quickly. If Buffy didn't
love Spike, I wish she hadn't said the words. OTOH I loved his
response to her for his sacrifice. I felt the amulet was hokey
and made 0 sense and should have been introduced earlier or described
better. The plan itself? Seemed like suicide and very illogical.
Even if every potential got empowered - how were they expected
to kill over a million ubervamps? Especially when just one ubervamp
took Buffy out in BoTN. OTOH the FE's scene with Buffy in the
basement was very interesting and one of the best scenes in the
series. Wood/Faith's scene at the end was...anti- climatic and
took away from some of the other scenes in my opinion. I was upset
that no one really mourned Anya. Or seemed to acknowledge what
Spike did.
They seemed a little too self-satisfied for something that I was
under an impression they didn't really accomplish.
Buffy and the potentials didn't save the world - Spike did.
All Buffy did was pass her power to every potential slayer out
there...which left me with mixed feelings. I think if all women
got the power it would have worked better for me, not sure. So
I was left feeling ambivalent. OTOH - the concept of using a weapon
to pass power and to share power was a cool one. Just as Spike
choosing to let the light from his soul consume and clense the
darkness around him also was very cool. It just could have been
a little tighter and stronger - I think.)
13. Same Time Same Place (this episode also furthered each characters
arc and moved the story forward effectively.
The demon was gnarly and creepy and perfect. Anya/Willow, Willow/Spike,
Spike/Buffy/Xander all well done in the basement, and I loved
posable Dawn. What was wrong with it?
Slow pacing due to the gimmick. But the risk is worth noting.
Confusing in places due to the gimmick. The ripe smell comment
by Buffy seemed a little off and out of character. More S2 or
S5 Buffy, I got the feeling she'd matured more than that. Loved
the final scene though.)
14. Potential ( Worked on some levels not others. It is one of
the few episodes of BTVS that never fails to make me cry. The
Xander/Dawn speech at the end does it to me every time. I enjoyed
the Spike/buffy banter. Also the Dawn/Xander moments and closeness.
Willow,Anya were better used than usual. But it moved slowly.
Again pacing slow. First half hour somewhat boring in places.
And way too many Buffy speeches. Buffy was beginning to get on
my nerves and I'm not sure that's what the writers wanted.)
15. First Date ( Also did a good job of furthering character arcs.
Gave some decent background development on Wood - although a lot
of it felt like left field. Mild mannered PRinicipal morphs into
creepy, arrogant, egotistical demon fighter. If Wood made my skin
crawl in BoTN, this one sealed it. I'm All That and I know it
Prinicpal Wood. Then we have Xander and the demon lady, again.
Although Xander's scenes were interesting - they didn't really
further his character that much. It seemed like a replay of Teacher's
Pet. And I think I prefered Teacher's Pet in places. The scenes
in the house though, amongst the group and the FE, Giles/Spike
and the group, Spike/Buffy, Anya/buffy, were well done and some
of the best of the season.)
16. Touched ( Some very good interactions between characters.
Faith/FE/Mayor, Spike/Faith/SG, Spike/Andrew,
Spike/ Buffy, Xander/anya (prior to the sex), Faith/Wood (prior
to the sex), Giles still felt like a podperson, he seemed off
in this episode for some reason. Willow/Kennedy actually seemed
hot, but possibly overkill - again self-indulgence on the part
of the writers - not convinced it furthered the story or characters
much. Glad they did it for political reasons, but felt it didn't
do much for the narrative as a whole. Faith/Wood? Squicked me.
But then I hated Wood. Also didn't seem to work narratively. And
it did not help that the scene happened right after the mother/father
chat - felt too incestuous for words. Xander/Anya? Didn't work
for me. Buffy/Spike - only one that did. Platonic. And seemed
warm. Song? Forgettable. Finally? I liked the bomb nice twist,
and the fight with Caleb? cool. The scythe? cheesy and felt like
it dropped from no-where.)
17. Empty Places (Worked up to the scene where the SG for reasons
I still can't figure out, backed the whiny Potentials in their
choice of rogue/ex-con slayer Faith as leader. And kicked Buffy
out of her own house. Or Buffy left on her own? Not clear. Felt
like Dawn kicked her out actually. Did not understand why Buffy
couldn't still sleep there. Especially with all these nasties
out there. And they have no clue where she goes? Uhm the girl
had gotten into a nasty fight with Caleb earlier - I'd want to
make sure she was safe, if not because I loved her dearly as a
friend and sister, but in case Faith did something boneheaded
and got everyone blown up - wait she did that didn't she? sigh.
Also so sick of the long monologues. Yoko Factor and Dead Man's
Party both did what Empty Places attempted but much better. Best
part of the episode?
Spike/Andrew bits, the first 35 minutes with Giles/Buffy scenes,
Willow/Xander/Buffy, Buffy at the school, Anya in the basement
- very good. The final group scene? Horrendous.)
18, Killer in Me ( not a bad episode, except its three separate
plot arcs did not flow well from each other. Felt choppy and quickly
pasted together. The Willow segment which would have made a full
episode in of itself is crammed in with the Spike chip segement
- also a good episode in of itself and the Giles as FE segment
another good episode in of itself. It might have worked better
if they made the Giles/Spike bit one episode and the Willow/Warren/Kennedy/Amy
another one. Amy seemed confusing in it, characterwise. Was she
the FE? Was she just Amy?
Felt like just Amy. While I liked the AMy bits and loved
the Willow/Warren stuff...it felt sort of choppy. Also illogical
in places - the switches back and forth didn't flow well. AH did
a better job of pretending to be Warren, then Adam Busch did of
pretending to be AH. The flipping back and forth was confusing
at times. Amy's sending Kennedy to Willow from the middle of the
night to late afternoon was weird. Spike/Buffy in the Initiative
seemed like a retcon and did not fit a lot of the plot stuff from
S4. Why they didn't simplify things and have Willow be the one
to magically remove the chip and deal with the fact that accessing
that power turned her evil - I don't know.
Instead they made it complicated and disconnected. Also the Giles'
story could have been better incorporated into the plot somehow.
So nice character development here and there, but very uneven
overall. I did like the Anya/xander/Dawn/Andrew grouping, also
the Willow/Amy/Kennedy confrontation as well as Spike/Buffy struggling
over what to do with the chip - I just think it could have been
done better.)
19. Bring on The Night (dreamlike episode. Nice character moments
between Buffy and Giles, Buffy and Joyce, but the other characters
were grossly under utilized. Anya/Dawn's behavior towards Andrew
made little sense. The misleads on Wood became irritating upon
re-watching. The time lags seemed odd - Wood apparently took three
days to bury Jonathan and return with an ax?? Or maybe he just
got around to returning it? Drusilla was okay as FE. Spike/Dru
scenes were okay, a little cheesy in places. I think Amends accomplished
this better. Drowning of a vampire seemed silly. The ubervamp
fight - slow. Pacing slow. But I liked dream-like nature of it.
And Buffy's last speech was probably her best next to the one
in the basement with spike almost all year.)
20. Him (Funny episode. I died laughing over the rocket launcher
bit. And the scene with Spike/Xander and Lance was very well done
and advanced both characters. Nice use of a guest starring character.
The risks taken were also interesting. Liked the split screen
approach. Found the 70's jabs interesting. Did not like the Buffy/RJ
scene.
But did like the metaphor that each relationship represented one
of Buffy's. Also best episode for Wood - loved him here. Made
me laugh. Weakenesses? A little silly in places, somewhat choppy,
not seamless. Also a tad cliche.)
21. Showtime (Pacing was very slow. I got bored with all the speeches.
The telepathy came out of no-where, was never explained, and made
no sense - clearly contrived to make the fight work. The fight
wasn't that suspensful. I didn't care about the SIT's. Over-crowded.
And the FE as Eve felt less creepy and more irritating. Best part
was the last scene.)
22. Help (Pacing was slow. Cassie did not move me emotionally.
The Buffy as counselor seemed a little choppy in places. The story
was also very afterschool special or
teen problem of the week. It didn't really move forward any of
the characters. The monster was a cliche and rehash of seasons
past. OTOH I liked the scene in the basement with Spike, interesting
psychologically, the bit with Willow in the graveyard and the
Willow/Xander scenes, also Dawn's scene at the end. Missed Anya.)
Well that's it. The reasons I wasn't overly fond of the season
episode by episode.
Overall? I give Season 7 - three stars. Or 7.5
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> Long post above and spoilers
through Chosen. -- s'kat, 11:41:58 06/09/03 Mon
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> A much more skeletal ranking
(sp 7.18) -- Tchaikovsky, 13:10:07 06/09/03 Mon
And only to 7.18, the last episode I've watched:
1 Conversations With Dead People
Perfect television
2 Selfless
Near-perfect television
3 Lies My Parents Told Me
Spoiled only by a lack of clarity in message- it had to be dug
around for. Beautifully shot
4 Beneath You
Wonderfully cerebral writing from Petrie. Disagree with shadowkat
here- I thought the scene capped the episode's themes, even if
the writing was palpably extraordinary.
5 Storyteller
The best attempt on television at showing the same ideas from
a different angle since...'The Zeppo'
6 Same Time Same Place
Wonderfully observed insecurity, and really nice directing from
James Contner. Notice how high the camera is in the Willow scenes,
emphasising the 'little fish in big pond-ness' of the story.
7 Lessons
Very good- I underrate this because I knew what happened at the
end before I saw this- and with an excellent sense of foreboding.
8 Never Leave Me
Good Goddard-ness.
9 Dirty Girls
More Good Goddard-ness. Faults in this episode and the next on
the list rectified by Xander's two super speeches of the year.
Here 'I saw her heart- and this time not literally' [cf 'Helpless']
10 Potential
Not good- but saved by 'You're not special...'
11 The Killer In Me
Generally under-appreciated. Well done, and I thought the plots
fitted nicely.
12 Get It Done
Generally over-appreciated. Too much apparent meaningfulness and
too little emotion to back it up.
13 First Date
Perfectly enjoyable fluff.
14 Showtime
Boring Fury, but saved by an good sentiment towards the end.
15 Sleeper
Not a long enough plot for a whole episode, no useful B-plot.
Marsters saves it.
16 Bring on the Night
One of Noxon's poorer episodes, and didn't really enjoy the final
speech. Hooray for Giles' return.
17 Him
Mediocre farce- and a desperately poor way to focus one of the
best and most under-exposed characters on the show this Season-
a maturing Dawn.
18 Help
Largely agree with shadowkat here. The final scene is as good
as anyhting else on television, but compared with the other seventeen,
the rest of the episode doesn't stand up well.
A very good Season so far- with a dip between 7.8 and 7.15, which
it had to work hard to atone for. 7.16-7.18 start to do the job,
but will withhold judgement on the whole Season until I've seen
the last four episodes.
TCH
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> You know I'm a lot more picky --
CW, 20:04:45 06/09/03 Mon
If an episodes like Hush, The Body and OMWF deserve five stars,
as I said before I can't give anything in season 7 five stars.
Even figuring I'd start by just lowering your ratings by one star,
I'd still have some quibbles. Just as an example, I can't see
either "Same Time Same Place" or "Dirty Girls"
rating as high as "Lessons." I think "Converstations
With Dead People" is generally overrated, but probably not
enough to take away another star. I'd probably be more generous
with the eps at the bottom as well. I'd probably squeeze all three
of your worst episodes into a two and a half star category or
higher. "Him" was as you've indicated as weak an episode
as the season had. I blushingly admit I don't remember "The
Killer in Me" in any detail. But, there really weren't any
episodes I hated this year on Buffy, just as there weren't any
I'd rate with top marks.
If I rate season 7 toward the bottom compared to the rest of the
series it's only because of the stiff competition. I certainly,
did enjoy it from beginning to end.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> Re: Seasons and rankings - more extended
list -- Yellow Bear, 09:33:44 06/09/03 Mon
I gotta say that I always get tense when someone uses the ratings
as a standard of quality. If the ratings were indicitive of a
show's quality, then we would all be at the ATPOJAG or ATPO8SR.
However, the ratings were better for S6 than S7 just as a corrective
to the statement above
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> Adding... -- Kate, 15:12:04
06/09/03 Mon
Yellow Bear - I agree about ratings not being the best way to
judge the success or merit of a season for a show like "Buffy."
The thing to keep in mind for S6 and S7, despite lower ratings
than previous years, is that when the show made the jump from
the WB to UPN, lots of viewers were unable to tune in because
their area/city didn't receive UPN. Also, for S7, while ratings
did dip, there was a gain as well. The ratings were lower among
the 12-18 demo while there was an increase in the 18-32/35 (?)
demo (the most sought after by advertisers and therefore networks
as well). To me this makes so much sense because the show grew-up,
so it audience would have to too.
The whole ratings game just annoys me because it only comes down
to money for the networks and therefore numerous excellent shows
never get a real chance develop (coughFireflycough). And it has
only gotten worse in recent years. Could you imagine a show like
"Cheers" -about people sitting around a bar - actually
having a chance to succeed in today's tv world?
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Good analysis -- Sophist, 09:15:49 06/09/03
Mon
It's very interesting to read your analysis. I find myself agreeing
with your assessments of most episodes, then disagreeing about
your conclusions for each season. I guess we just weight things
a little differently.
Just for example, the only changes I would make to your list of
favorite S6 eps are that I would drop Bargaining 1&2, Flooded,
and SR. I concur on the list of eps you didn't like, and even
agree, with just a few exceptions, on the specific scenes you
mentioned. Despite all that agreement, I'd rate S6 either last
or next to last (after S1). Why? I find the MagiCrack theme both
intrusive and disruptive to the major storyline of the season,
and the ending was a complete bust emotionally (with some disappointing
scripts, as well).
I find similar agreement on episodes and scenes in S7. The only
significant changes I'd make to your lists are that I liked BoTN
and I'd switch First Date with Storyteller (which I loved). The
big difference, apparently, is that the ending worked very well
for me emotionally, while it obviously didn't for you.
I think this demonstrates how hard it is to come to agreement
on which seasons work. The only conclusion I can draw is that
the ending has a very substantial effect on our perceptions.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> Re: Good analysis -- s'kat, 09:48:35
06/09/03 Mon
I find similar agreement on episodes and scenes in S7. The
only significant changes I'd make to your lists are that I liked
BoTN and I'd switch First Date with Storyteller (which I loved).
The big difference, apparently, is that the ending worked very
well for me emotionally, while it obviously didn't for you.
I think this demonstrates how hard it is to come to agreement
on which seasons work. The only conclusion I can draw is that
the ending has a very substantial effect on our perceptions.
Yes, I very much agree, it is very hard for us to come to a consensus
on this. For instance, I managed to covert my mother into a Btvs
fan last year, she's seen all the episodes now, many of them more
than once. And? She actually enjoyed Chosen more than I did. She
found the whole B/S arc very moving, very adult, and far more
interesting than any of the other relationship arcs in the series.
While I liked it, I found it...at times confusing, not nearly
as clear as she did.
I struggle with S6, objectively? It has so many problems, the
Magic as Crack story line being a big one. While I agreed with
dream's defense of it. I still felt that writers backed off of
a far more interesting storyline - one they attempted to pick
up on in S7 and did to some degree in Ats S4. I think Whedon's
love of Willow, prevented him from really exploring the whole
abuse of power idea. My other difficulty with S6 was the fact
that
I feel they took the easy way out on the complex B/S relationship
- making Spike the villain in SR and going for the "bad boy
- yes means no = AR cliche taken from one too many soap operas".
On the other hand - the risks they took that season still impress
me. And some of the episodes continue to blow me away. Also there
were a couple of stellar performances. So, I'm conflicted on it.
I will admit, I find it a hard season to rewatch.
Of the seasons, oddly enough S2, S4, and S5 seem to be the most
rewatchable for me. With S3 a possible fourth choice.
S1, S6 and S7 less so, but that may be due to the fact that I've
seen S6 and S7 rather recently. Perhaps in four years I'll change
my mind? ;-)
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> Does a good ending necessarily swing
things one way or the other? -- cjl, 10:01:59 06/09/03
Mon
I thought "Chosen" was a solid season ender, far better
than "Grave" in terms of pacing, action choreography,
and the way the metaphors lined up so neatly. (Yes, Joss vs. Fury
is like the Yankees vs. a "AA" minor league team, but
go with me here.) Despite the fact that we were all expecting
a life-changing, emotionally overwhelming experience, and set
ourselves up for crushing disappointment, "Chosen" didn't
disappoint.
But it couldn't save the seasonal arc. Too many loose ends, too
many characters swept to the side by the Potentials and Andrew
and Wood, too many logical inconsistencies. There comes a point
when you lose interest in putting the pieces of a season together
because you feel the writers have lost interest, too. "Chosen"
would have needed 4 hours and subtitled footnotes to rescue S7--and
even Joss isn't that good.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> Agreed. Well said. -- s'kat,
11:47:01 06/09/03 Mon
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Ooh fun! Playing the rating game -- ponygirl,
09:50:00 06/09/03 Mon
This will aid me in my quest to ignore work!
My highly subjective ranking of the seasons:
1. S6
2. S5
3. S2/S4
4. S3
5. S7
6. S1 (though to be fair I sometimes feel that I should leave
it off the list, like a prequel or something.)
Season 6 still blows me away when I think about it. Yes, there
were tons o' problems, and I must fast forward through the Willow
parts of Wrecked, but as a whole I think it stands up as a remarkable
achievement. In a weird way this was our epic season, huge
risks, huge failures, and a real sense that this was a struggle
to find a way to do that hardest thing - to live in the world.
The fact that we still get contradictory explanations from ME
on what it all meant doesn't bother me, s6 is one of those pictures
that everyone who looks into it finds something different.
S5 on the other hand, for me, comes together with with an almost
cold precision. It's lovely and it works, but especially after
the Body, I never quite lose the sense that the show would rip
out my heart to show me how marvelous its inner workings are.
It's a season I probably admire more than I love.
Poor S7! Or rather poor me. I know Rob would argue, but I think
we had the strongest first halves of a season ever, and then...
I got the feeling that certain points were mapped out and locked
in stone - the arrival of the SiTs, the choosing of Faith over
Buffy, the events of Chosen - and everything else fell under the
categories of filling in gaps, meandering, placeholding, and last-minute
scramble. I'll probably change my assessment some day - I used
to consider s3 a fave and didn't like s4 - but right now I think
the second half of s7 is most interesting when viewed as a story
of profound weariness and desire for a new order - a.k.a. a production
team in need of a break.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> Re: Ooh fun! Playing the rating game
-- Yellow bear, 11:14:40 06/09/03 Mon
Ponygirl, I could not agree with you more about "a production
team needing a break". IMHO, S7 is the weakest of seasons
(with the exception of S1 which I do feel is kinda like a prequel)
but when you consider the EPs are working on new shows, having
there first children and the production problems over at Ats plus
the fact that this is the seventh season of a the show (I can
think of no other show that was as good as BTVS for so long) then
I find it remarkable that it's as good as it is.
I still loved the season but for me, it fails to cohere like the
others do (I actually have this theory that we needed to spend
more time with SITs but that's neither here nor there). Whedon
has a wonderful ending (the sharing of power) but the path there
is rocky. I mean I still can't figure out what purpose Robin Wood
serves in all this except to fill up a couple of episodes in the
mid-season.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> Re: Ooh fun! Playing the rating game
-- ponygirl, 11:39:16 06/09/03 Mon
I probably am still too cranky about the end - and maybe cranky
that it is the end - because there were lots of parts of the second
half of the season that I liked. I just find myself agreeing completely
with cjl's assessment above - Chosen was a good episode but could
not save the season, and in fact ended up underscoring a lot of
the problems with s7 as a whole. Don't get me wrong I always have
a big love-on for the show, but still with the cranky.
And I agree about Wood. While I really liked LMPTM, I just can't
find much justification for his character outside that episode,
especially considering the big build-up we had for him all season.
What did Wood symbolize? He was an authority figure who ends up
a foot soldier, a lone fighter that we never really saw fighting
on his own, a guy with a personal vendetta who urges the big picture
view, a manipulator who can be trusted, someone who blames the
Mission yet puts his life on the line for it. Who was that guy?
And why oh why did he bury poor Jonathon in an unmarked grave?
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> Re: Ooh fun! Playing the rating game
-- ponygirl, 11:40:24 06/09/03 Mon
I probably am still too cranky about the end - and maybe cranky
that it is the end - because there were lots of parts of the second
half of the season that I liked. I just find myself agreeing completely
with cjl's assessment above - Chosen was a good episode but could
not save the season, and in fact ended up underscoring a lot of
the problems with s7 as a whole. Don't get me wrong I always have
a big love-on for the show, but still with the cranky.
And I agree about Wood. While I really liked LMPTM, I just can't
find much justification for his character outside that episode,
especially considering the big build-up we had for him all season.
What did Wood symbolize? He was an authority figure who ends up
a foot soldier, a lone fighter that we never really saw fighting
on his own, a guy with a personal vendetta who urges the big picture
view, a manipulator who can be trusted, someone who blames the
Mission yet puts his life on the line for it. Who was that guy?
And why oh why did he bury poor Jonathon in an unmarked grave?
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> Agreed. -- s'kat, 11:55:16 06/09/03
Mon
Our subjective rankings are incredibly similar, the one person
I've found who shares the exact same ranking I do.
Interesting.
I completely agree with your assessments of S7 and S6.
I also felt a sense of writer/production team weariness in S7
and a sense of writer excitement in S6.
S7, I may change my mind about in years to come. But at the moment
it feels like the season that had so much potential but got bogged
down in the second half by difficult plot points, too many characters,
and distracted writers.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> Question: Who was show runner in S7?
-- Just George, 15:18:09 06/09/03 Mon
Joss ran the show in early seasons. Marti ran the show in S6.
But I can't remember who ran the show in S7. Perhaps the lack
of a high profile show runner led to some of the dropped balls
later in the season.
-George
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Question: Who was show runner
in S7? -- s'kat, 15:22:54 06/09/03 Mon
Joss Whedon according to all reports and the episodes.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Question: Who was show
runner in S7? -- Miss Edith, 16:50:56 06/09/03 Mon
A burnt out joss Wheaden who was heavily invested in saving Firefly.
So much so that he was comparing Firefly favourably to his other
shows. E.g commeting about star attitudes on his other shows with
Firefly's cast being an ensemble without a lead who was apart
from the rest of the cast, when asked if Firefly would continue
he replied "God I hope so" and when asked the same for
Buffy he replied "God I hope not". He made several comments
about being tired, I always felt Joss had planned on the show
ending in season 5 with Buffy's death and lost the inspiration
after that.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Question: Who was show runner
in S7? -- skyMatrix, 17:36:17 06/09/03 Mon
I know it was suggested in some corners that the real power had
divulged to David Fury while Joss and Marti were distracted. I
think he might indeed have been 3rd in command. Wouldn't that
have been great, after all Fury is hated more than anyone, it
would be beyond easy to blame things on him! However, I find this
difficult to believe, because he wrote many episodes for AtS this
year too, so it seems that he was just as distracted as Joss and
Marti. Or maybe he's just a really hard worker?
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Rankings, ratings, and eternal inner strife
-- Valheru, 00:07:51 06/10/03 Tue
Ranking BtVS episodes is a love/hate thing with me. Every time
I finish watching an episode, I spend a little time thinking,
"Now how would I rank that?" It starts out simply enough--
"'Superstar' was great! It ranks up there somewhere!"--but
then I start having to make a mental list of all 144 episodes
for comparison, which then turns into hour-long arguments with
myself over the strengths/weaknesses of "Hush" vs. "Bad
Eggs". By the time I get fed up with the whole thing, I never
get any more conclusive than "This show is awesome!"
Instead, I try to categorize the eps. I usually start out with
the Auteur-Joss episodes, "Hush", "Restless",
"The Body", and "OMWF". Then I go on to the
Regular-Joss greats, "The Gift", "Innocence",
"Becoming", "Graduation Day", "Amends",
and "Prophecy Girl". Then things start getting murky.
"Where do I put 'The Zeppo'? 'Passion'? 'Selfless'?"
Someday, when I have a lot of free time and a lot of inspiration,
I'll come up with some nifty categories and the eps will fall
into place just the way I like them. Chances are, that will be
the day before AtS's final episode and I'll have to start all
over again.
Usually when people do lists, they do it one of two ways: 1) each
episode gets a number, 1-144, or 2) on a scale of 1-5 stars. I
used to do the stars thing, but that always led to strange bedfellows.
I mean, on a 1-5 scale, it usually works out that "The Body"
and "Lover's Walk" are both 5 stars, but (and no disrespect
due to "LW", which I think is awesome) they really aren't
in the same league. 10 stars is easier, but that usually leaves
the Auteur-Joss episodes as the only 10 stars, and I always
feel guilty for leaving episodes like "The Zeppo" or
"Becoming" at a measly 9. And if it's a scale of 15
or 20 stars, what's the point?
IMO, it's almost impossible to rank the BtVS episodes, in any
fashion, and be 100% satisfied. 75-80% is as close as I ever get.
Frankly, anyone who says they're 100% positive is either lying
or not a die-hard enough fan for me to care about their opinion.
The episodes are too diverse to be compared. How can anyone really
look at (for example) "The Zeppo", "OMWF",
and "Becoming" and say that one is any better than the
other? Or that "Lie to Me" is a 3 star episode and "Halloween"
is 4? And how can we give "Beer Bad" only one star,
ranked at #144, and then turn on The Anna Nicole Smith Show
without damning ourselves?
Heh. That Joss. He's always creating a controversy somewhere.
I do have an easier time ranking the seasons, though. 2, 3, and
5 are the great ones. 7 and 1 are the okay ones. 4 and 6 are the
ones in-between. A good ol' 3-star system. Out of 7 seasons. Yup.
I'm a risk taker, no doubt about it...
[> [> [> [> [>
Re: Re Party of Five -- Miss Edith, 15:10:11 06/09/03
Mon
Well regarding Marti's interviews getting her into trouble, to
an extent that's true. In season 6 she riled up Spike fans several
times, as well as the B/A fans. The reasons for why Marti is so
loathed on the net (and sorry but that is the case on nearly every
site that some will hate Marti's contribution to Buffy) are wipespread.
Some reasons are;
The general opinion seems to be that Marti blames the audience
for not appreciating season 6. She talks of us not "getting"
what they were trying to say, rather than admitting that perhaps
they could have done a better job showing us what they intended.
At a recent convention James Marsters strongly gave the impression
that ME have had words with him and his portrayal of Spike. He
is constantly beating himself up for playing Spike as soulful
in season 6 before Spike had a soul (I assume he is refering to
the "every night I save you" speech, and moments like
that). He has said he messed up the arc planned as we were supposed
to sympathise with Buffy, "if you guys had only been horrified
by Spike they wouldn't have done the bathroom scene","you
guys refused to be repulsed by anything Spike did". Unfair
maybe but a lot of Spike fans are seeing similarities with Marti's
interviews and feeling James words come from Marti. Hence fans
are frustrated that Marti is blaming the fans for not making her
story clear enough. Marti was constantly telling the fans during
season 6 "you just don't get it".
James Marsters has said about season 6 that "Marti wanted
me shirtless all the time", and commented that he stopped
working out in season 7 and gained ten pounds so that "Marti
would stop taking my damn shirt off". We hear Marti has an
obsession with James's nipples and it has lead many to complain
that Marti thinks all Spike fans are brainless women who demand
shirtless Spike.
The anti B/S people blame Marti for B/S happening at all and all
the kinky sex that went down is seen as Marti's responsinility.
Basically a lot of the people who disliked B/S blame Marti. And
the fans of B/S blame Marti for the AR and how B/S was written.
And there are the people who criticise Willow's magic crack arc
and see juvenile anvils that they felt weakened Willow's storyline.
Wrecked originated that particular plot, and of course it has
been revealved that Joss left for Firefly around that time making
the show much more Marti's at that point. Hence her getting blamed
for a lot of what fans were dissatisifed with.
Also inserting her personal life into the script was disliked
by many fans who saw the show becoming a soap opera with Marti
talking of Spike being her bad boyfriend and how he was victimising
Buffy. She seemed unable to understand that the audience were
seeing something slighter greyer onscreen. All that talk of her
twenties having no times that were not miserable, only finding
love with non vampires after her twenties etc. Well those who
disliked the depressing feel of season 6 blamed that on Marti,
again it is her own interviews that give off this impression,
hence her receiving the blame for it.
As for me I think Marti is a good writer. But as showrunner she
did a poor job IMO.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> I agree with most of that. -- Rochefort, 21:08:29
06/09/03 Mon
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Re: Re Party of Five -- s'kat, 22:42:53 06/09/03
Mon
I think Marti just gives lousey interviews. I saw her on Nite
Bites recently and was struck with the feeling that she comes
off really ditzy in interviews. Some people just don't interview
well. Another example is SMG - hate reading her interviews. Others?
Interview beautifully - Joss Whedon, James Marsters, Anthony Stewart
Head and Amber Benson are all examples. The trick is to talk about
the process and not your intent or personal life too much.
Most of these people do a good job of keeping too much of their
personal life out of it.
Also a lot of these things, comments that were said, etc were
taken out of context, embellished on, and exaggerated by online
fans - the internet can serve as a huge gossip net when it wants
too ;-) And let's face it when it comes to BTVS, some of us aren't
exactly objective or emotionally calm. Obsessions are weird that
way.
I tend to take what some of the actors say with a grain of salt,
since they don't get everything. Marsters states in a recent TV
Zone interview that he was worried he didn't really pull out all
the stops in his performance on Chosen. He was so psyched to finally
be working closely with Joss Whedon (usually on Whedon's written/directed
episodes, he's on the second unit with Whedon's pal David Solomon,
although Whedon has directed Spike.), that he thinks he pushed
too hard. Whedon told him repeatedly he was giving him exactly
what he needed and if he wasn't, he would reshoot it. "Don't
worry - you're doing what I want, otherwise I'd redo it".
Also in S2, Whedon pulled him aside and explained how to say the
lines so the best comic effect would come out. Whedon is extreemly
hands on and has taught his writers to be.
From the Q&A's and interviews I've read, I got the impression
that the AR scene really tormented poor JM.
He got the scene pretty much the day they shot it. IT came as
a complete surprise to him and it was something he swore he'd
never ever do as an actor. They choreographed it well.
But, he freaked. Understandable. I had to do a moot court trial
once, where I played the role of a victim, an defense attorney
and a prosecutor - and I'm a method actor - it tore me apart inside
and it was just for law school. Professional actors have posted
on other boards how difficult it is for an actor to do a scene
that disturbs them and they don't let go of it easily. According
to interviews - the victim in the real life scene this was based
on was a man and the perpetuator was a woman (re- watch the rape
sequence in Consequences with Faith and Xander which was written
by Marti Noxon. That sequence is worse actually than what happened
in SR, but! People don't have as much problems with it. You should
have problems with both scenes.) Marsters believes that his portrayal
of Spike led female and male fans to worship a dangerous character
and feels uncomfortable about that...and according to the TV Zone
article was glad they went with the SR sequence, because it tells
the truth about these relationships. The problem - was that many
fans (myself included) saw a dual abusive relationship here, not
one-sided. Buffy behaved like a monster towards Spike. To the
extent that many fans believed ME was sending out a negative double-standard.
I don't agree - I saw it as very complex and interesting and risky.
But to come out and say Spike was the only one who was abusive
- bugged people, b/c it wasn't what we saw on the screen. (Dead
Things, Smashed, Tabula Rasa, OMWF, OAFA, AYW, Gone, all lent
credence to this feeling.) It's very very risky to do a dual abusive
relationship - where the heroine is as nasty as the villain without
losing the audience or confusing them. I think the AR sequence
was an attempt on the writers part to somehow
show the consequences of entering into this type of relationship
and also as an attempt to tip the scale enough on the side of
Spike as to enable the audience to believe he needed a soul to
be redeemed. (At this point, a good percentage of the audience
didn't see him needing a soul, or why he'd seek one. They had
to do something traumatic enough to motivate the character to
seek out a soul in the viewers eyes - to make it work. And that
reason is the only reason I've shrugged it off. AR scene works
for the seeking of the soul and re-establishing the fact he could
not be good without one. Whedon states it very well in his interview
with the NYtimes, where he says - without a soul, Spike could
not make the distinction between dominance games and rape, with
a soul he could.
The wonder of the show is it's ambiguity, but that does provide
the writer with challenges - like will the audience read the show
and story the way you wish? Also ambiguity opens story lines up
more, gives you more paths and doesn't lock you into one area
so much. But at the same time - you have to be certain you don't
take the stance in interviews that it's obvious on screen and
the audience is stupid for not seeing it. Marti and Fury at times
got a bit defensive
in interviews and did a little of that.
The way I dealt with it finally, was to scan the interviews, using
the production and process information, how they made and wrote
it, and kicking out the personal interpretations. Because, honestly,
I don't think a writer can really tell you what they meant when
they wrote something, so much is subconscious, on top of this
a tv show is such a collaborative process that it's not any one
person's interpretation but about 20. Spike is a collaborative
effort - over 20 people create that character not one. And Btvs?
Even more so. None of the actors or writers can individually tell
you what its all about or where it's going, only Joss Whedon can
come close to that since he's the one who blocks out the arcs
and sets the tone, but even he is part of the collaborative machine.
That's why I try not to overreact to writers or actor interviews...what
they think the story is saying is no more valid or relevant than
what we think. If anything we probably know more than they do,
since we've rewatched the episodes numerous times. JM has never
watched Seeing Red.
He hasn't seen the episode. He can't get himself to watch it.
He also has not watched the episodes as much as we have. We know
his character better than he does by now and it's ironic.
Anyways sort of rambled off topic. Make of it what you will.
sk
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> The visceral effect of "Seeing Red" was
greater than "Consequences" -- Finn Mac Cool, 21:02:43
06/10/03 Tue
Not necessairly because it was a man against a woman rather than
a woman against a man, but because of the way it was shot. Frankly,
when an act of violence is shown without music in the background,
it often seems more gritty and violent than those with music.
Also, while Faith had violence in mind, she didn't carry through
any violence beyond attempted strangling. In "Seeing Red",
Buffy was hurt in the process of the attack. I guess it's sort
of the difference between someone being beaten to death and someone
being quietly smothered with a pillow. Both just as bad, but one
has a much greater visual impact.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> Re: The visceral effect of "Seeing Red"
was greater than "Consequences" -- s'kat, 22:11:35
06/10/03 Tue
Also, while Faith had violence in mind, she didn't carry through
any violence beyond attempted strangling. In "Seeing Red",
Buffy was hurt in the process of the attack. I guess it's sort
of the difference between someone being beaten to death and someone
being quietly smothered with a pillow. Both just as bad, but one
has a much greater visual impact.
Uhm your argument doesn't work logically, Finn. It's actually
the opposite.
Buffy wasn't hurt. When was she hurt? The bruise on her leg? Or
the bad back prior? Actually Buffy felt so healthy afterwards
that she went and beat the crap out of Warren. She was just emotionally
devasted. And Spike did not intend to hurt Buffy, nor did he carry
out any violence towards Buffy after she knocked him across the
room. He showed remorse, was so upset he went and got a soul.
Faith attempted to physically molest Xander, who kept saying no,
then when he didn't give in, tried to strangel him. After Angel
pulled her off him and had to lock her in chains, and Buffy thought
she got through to Faith, Faith joined the Mayor and decided to
torture Buffy two episodes later. Faith physically attempted to
rape Xander then carried through violence of the strangling. Spike
just attempted to force sex on Buffy which turned into rape -
and did not try to kill her or hurt her beyond that - and Spike
could have gone into vamp face and bitten her - but he didn't.
HE could have continued to go after her after she shoved him off.
He didn't. Angel had to knock Faith out.
Xander was hurt. He could barely breath. He had bruises around
his neck and would have died if Angel didn't save him. You honestly
think he was uninjured?
It's the difference between having someone's hands chocking the
life out of you while they are sitting on top of you and physically
violating you and having someone try to tear your robe off and
have sex with you. One tried to rape and kill. One just tried
to force himself - not realizing it was rape, even though it was.
Faith knew it was rape.
Spike didn't realize it.
One was streaked with light one in the dark. One had negative
music in the background. One had no music.
One was against a superhero who could knock her attacker across
the room. One was against a guy who couldn't punch his attacker
at all.
Uhm...I guess it's all in your pov right? I honestly don't see
how people can continue to dismiss the Faith scene in Consequences
as anything less than a violent sexual assault which almost ended
in murder.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> Never said it wasn't violent and brutal
-- Finn Mac Cool, 23:01:31 06/10/03 Tue
Yes, Buffy didn't seem to be hurt bad, but she was slammed to
the ground. While it's not more violent than the attempted choking,
it still looks that way. Chokings are more deadly than a simple
slam, and probably hurt more, but they look less violent. Also,
all that stuff about motivation and the inevitable end result:
I was talking about the visual effect of it; that means how it
hits you without taking what came before or after into consideration.
Considering the characters, what they did before the event and
what they did after, the judging is very different. However, if
you take the scenes in isolation (also cutting off the end to
each one, meaning we don't get to see Angel knock Faith unconscious
or Buffy kick Spike off), the attempted rape in "Seeing Red"
seems more violent. On a purely "in the moment" perspective,
Faith's attempted murder/rape doesn't seem as bad as Spike's attempted
rape. Faith moves slowly over a largely limp Xander who only manages
to say "no . . .", whereas Spike moves crudely (as does
the camera), and we hear Buffy half-screaming for him to stop.
Faith's acts are creepy and demented; Spike's are vulgar and gritty.
After thought has time to set in, Faith comes off far worse, but,
from the purely visual perspective, Spike comes off worse.
P.S. Never said Faith wasn't commiting a violent, sexual assault,
only that the effect of seeing it wasn't as severe as seeing Spike.
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Never said it wasn't violent
and brutal -- s'kat, 23:23:24 06/10/03 Tue
Okay would agree with that. Thank you for clarifying - it wasn't
clear to me from your previous post. So I completely misread you.
Sorry about that.
I think the reason they made one visually more striking (gritty?
gruesome) than the other was to emphasize what came before or
after. ME's writers will often stage events or write scenes to
set up a sort of classic plot-twist or mislead. In order for the
plot-twist of Faith going all bad and joining the MAyor to work
at the end of Consequences - they had to make the audience believe
she wasn't irredeemable that she wasn't going to go bad. We had
to be surprised, yet at the same time be able to track back and
see the logic. Same thing with Spike - in order to make his decision
to leave town and get a soul be a surprise - his act had to be
horrible - we had to logically see the progression but be surprised
by it at the same time.
I think that's why they did those scenes the way they did.
And it worked.
[> No Tim Minear? --
Vickie, 17:58:00 06/08/03 Sun
What's he going to be doing? Does anyone know? IMDB just lists
a film after Firefly.
[> [> No, he's leaving
to do a new supernatural show for FOX, "Wonderfalls,"
as a mid-season replacement. -- Rob, 21:48:35 06/08/03
Sun
[> Angel NEEEEEEDS Jane
Espenson! It's what Angel is Missing! -- Rochefort, 21:42:37
06/09/03 Mon
[> [> Angel HAD Jane
Espenson, and lost her -- Masq, 14:10:11 06/10/03 Tue
She's on the writing credits for
Season One. episode #5 - "Rm w/a Vu" (co-written w/
D.Greenwalt)
Season Two, episode #6 - "Guise Will Be Guise"
Some more canidates
for The Apocalypse - - JBone, 20:40:47 06/08/03 Sun
Trevor: Must be something wrong with him. He married?
Kate: No.
Trevor: West
Hollywood?
http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/road2sunnydale/playin.html
Check out the comments for the Day 1 fisticuffs.
[> There may be a slight
problem... -- dub ;o), 21:20:01 06/08/03 Sun
First I voted for Katrina, and saw my vote recorded. Then I voted
for Gavin Park, and saw my voted recorded...for Katrina!
Dunno what happened there...but I think I got in two votes for
Katrina and none for Gavin.
dub
[> [> Yeah, another of
those votes for "Katrina" was meant for Gavin --
d'Herblay, 21:34:59 06/08/03 Sun
Can we figure out which of the right-hand candidates registers
as Holland Manners? Because it would be in keeping with Wolfram
& Hart techniques to throw all our muscle behind that candidate.
[> [> [> Give me a
little time, I'll restart it. -- Jay, 21:54:06 06/08/03
Sun
[> Okay, try it again.
-- Jay, 22:12:30 06/08/03 Sun
And let me know if it is still giving you trouble. In my attempt
to get both polls on the same line, I fear I damaged them, so
I deleted them and started new ones. Fingers crossed. Should I
vote, just to test it?
Question on
Numbers in Bargaining -- RadiusRS, 21:23:10 06/08/03 Sun
I was rewatching The Early Episodes of Season 6 recently and noticed
a curious costume trend in Bargaining Part 1:
Willow, Xander, and Dawn all wear T-Shirts with numbers on them,
Willow an 11, Xander a 13, and Dawn a 7. In a later episode, Dawn
also wears shirt with the number 2 and one with 55. I don't know
that the latter episode has much to do with my questions, but
it seemed in Bargaining like it was on purpose and meant to contrast
with Anya & Tara and Spike &
Buffy. Other than being Prime numbers, are there any mystical,
spiritual, or symbolic properties of these numbers that might
fit in with the themes and arc of the show?
[> Re: Question on Numbers
in Bargaining -- Dochawk, 22:54:03 06/08/03 Sun
The costumer for Buffy, who moved on to a different show (Birds
of Prey? if so, good choice ;) )said in an interview last year
that the numbers on the shirts meant absolutely nothing. I am
sure Ruf could find the interview.
[> Re: Question on Numbers
in Bargaining -- tomfool, 01:47:42 06/09/03 Mon
I seem to recall that Shadowkat had a fairly lengthy post when
that episode came out analyzing the potential significance of
the shirt numbers. You may want to check the archives for October
of 2001. I could be wrong.
[> [> Addendum - found
it -- tomfool, 15:42:34 06/09/03 Mon
Here's the link:
http://www.ivyweb.com/btvs/board/archives/may02_p17.html
Page down just a little.
Numbers on Tshirts in Bargaining, NA, SR - what they mean (Spoilers
to Villains, long) -- shadowkat, 06:34:58 05/16/02 Thu
What Numbers on T-shirts in B Part I& II, NA & SR symbolize
(Spoilers to Villains!)
New Round Robin
(Or at least, the old on re- visited!) -- Marie, 06:39:40
06/09/03 Mon
I'm re-posting the first part of the old one below, but before
that, a short re-cap of rules:
1. Titles may not be split (for instance, I was made to
do it! If I didn't love you, I wouldn't've told you!"
would be wrong!)
2. Titles must appear in their correct chronological order.
3. Try and remember what other people have written, so it makes
sense.
Er, that's it, really, except for
4. Have fun!
Oh - a tip! As I think I've mentioned before, it's really maddening
to type a long screed and then find someone else has beaten you
to it, so claim the next bit before you write it!
Enough with the waffle, already - here it is:
Anne/Dead Man's Party/Faith, Hope and Trick - LadyStarlight
Spike turned from the bar, beer in hand. He took a step forward
and watched with resignation as a tall redhead backed into his
drink.
She turned with a gasp. "Oh my God, I'm so sorry." She
grabbed a handful of napkins and dabbed at his beer-soaked shirt.
He gently pushed her hand aside.
"Don't worry about it, love. Happens all the time."
She gestured to the bartender. "Let me replace that for you."
She placed the bottle in his hand and smiled. "Hi, I'm Anne."
"Spike. Nice to meet you."
They drifted over to a deserted table and listened to the music
for a minute.
"What do you think of the band?"
Spike looked up at the stage. "Dead Man's Party? They're
all right, I guess. Rather see Green Day or the Dingoes, though."
He drew closer to her and noticed the charms on her necklace.
He slid his hand between the thin chain and her skin.
"Interesting. An anchor, a heart and a cross." Gently
flicking each charm, he said "Faith, Hope and "
"Trick!"
"Ch--Trick? What?"
"You're not human! Damnit! I needed a human to work the spell."
She pushed rudely past him, once again spilling the beer all over
him.
"Bloody women! Oi, waitress! Jack on the rocks."
***
Beauty and the Beasts/Homecoming/Band Candy - d'Herblay
It was a quiet day in the Magic Box, so Anya and Xander just sat,
staring into each other's eyes.
"I love you," she said.
"I love you more," said he. "And I can imagine
no possible impediments to our marrying and spending the rest
of our happy little lives together."
The door swung open. A cold breeze swept into the shop as an ominous
shadow crossed the floor.
"I'm home!" said Cordelia.
"Cordelia?" said Xander. "What are you doing here?"
"Daddy made a fortune shorting tech stocks on E-Trade in
prison. He's rich again, and I'm here to enjoy it."
"Shouldn't you be in L.A.? I thought you had a new life there.
You know, there, as in far away from here."
"Well, you know L.A. It was just beauty and the beasts. I
was beauty, by the way."
Anya frowned. "I hate to interrupt this homecoming, but I
have to tell you to keep your spotlessly clean yet metaphorically
dirty hands off of my Xander."
"Please. I'm a leading lady now. I spurn the advances of
title characters. A nothing like Xander would never catch my eye."
"Good. I am relieved to discover that you consider my fiance
a 'nothing.'"
"An, let's not encourage her," said Xander. "Well,
welcome back to Sunnydale, Cordy. Just when I thought the town
couldn't get any more evil, here you are."
Anya said, "I feel there's something I should be saying here,
but it's like I can't remember the words."
"So," said Cordelia, "now that I've grown as a
character and can handle myself in a fight, is there any evil
a-brewin'? Some wrongs to right? Giant snakes to kill? Perhaps
some patriarchy to overthrow?"
Anya pointed to a copy of The International Sunnydale Herald Tribune.
"According to what I've been reading, the Mullahs banned
Khandahar women from seeking education or medical help. We could
join in the mopping-up."
Emerging from her basement training room, Buffy mopped her perplexed
forehead. "What was that? Something about--"
"Don't even try that, Buffy," said Xander. "We're
taking this very seriously. There will be no quick short-cuts."
"Well," said Cordelia, "We'd better find something
to do. Because other than my newly regained wealth, there's not
a lot in this town that interests me. It's like Peoria crossed
with a gulag. I swear, if you could bottle drab and can dystopia,
this town might finally have some industry."
"Gee. Cryptic much? Who turned you into a word-search?"
asked Buffy.
"I think his name was Durbley . . . I didn't quite catch
it."
Anya's face took on a sudden glow. "You could help plan our
wedding. Xander wants to go with a DJ, but I want a band. Can
Deee-Lite make it, you think? Because I really think an early-
nineties one-hit wonder makes a fine addition to any wedding reception."
Buffy frowned. "Not quite fully human yet, are you?"
"But she's getting there, and I'm enjoying the process,"
said Xander. He kissed Anya lightly on the cheek, then again,
as she pulled him tightly toward her. Their lips met and she pushed
him back on the table, knocking over a discounted Globe of Tiresias.
When Anya began flicking her tongue into
Xander's ear, Cordelia had to turn away.
"I always know that I can count on Sunnydale for truly disturbing
imagery," she said.
"I know," said Buffy. "They do this all the time.
It really makes me miss heaven; there are no public displays of
affection in heaven. Well, a lot of hugging, and the occasional
pat on the back. But this is out of a demon dimension. The only
thing worse I've seen was Giles making out with my mother."
"Giles made out with your mother? When? Why?"
"It was when they were under the influence of the magical
band candy . . . hey! I suddenly feel a strange sense of closure!"
Cordelia looked sternly at Buffy. "I think it's cheating
if you actually refer to the episode."
"Well, who asked you? You're a terribly contrived cross-over
character anyway. My work here is done. I'm out of here."
***
Revelations/Lovers' Walk/The Wish - Wisewoman
Cordelia's nostrils flared, and her eyes narrowed dangerously
as she watched Buffy stroll from the shop, passing Giles on her
way out.
"Good Lord! Cor..Cordelia! Well...um, how have you been?"
"How have I been??!! Don't give me that. You and Buffy's
mom? Oh my God, that's so gross!"
"I..um...sorry?" Giles began frantically cleaning his
glasses in confusion and embarrassment.
"Well, what other revelations have I missed while I was in
LA?"
"Buffy died again," Xander offered.
"We're getting married," Anya chimed in.
"Dawn killed her, uh, her first vampire at Hallowe'en, on
Lovers' Walk, in the park..." Giles said.
"Okay, whoa!" Cordelia shouted. "Back up there,
guys. Buffy died AGAIN? Then who was that that just waltzed out
of here?"
"Oh, we brought her back," said Anya, matter-of-factly.
"Willow did a spell. I got the Urn of Osiris on e-Bay..."
"Willow did a spell? Geez, when I left she couldn't even
de-rat Amy..."
"Yes, well, as I've tried to tell them," said Giles,
"the act of bringing Buffy back is bound to have some truly
horrendous repercussions..."
"Giles, don't go there, okay?" said Xander. "I
know, I know, we shoulda told you about it, but the wish to have
Buffy back was just too strong...and Willow said she could do
it..."
"Yes, well...," Giles began.
"Wait a minute!" Cordelia glared at each of them in
turn. "Who the hell is Dawn?"
***
Amends/Gingerbread/Helpless - Isabel
The Scooby Gang froze. She didn't know...
"Wh-what do you mean, 'Who the Hell is Dawn?'" Giles
stammered.
Cordelia looked at them in disgust. "I've been in LA for
two and a half years! Like any of you called to keep me up to
date with your friends or
something." She sniffed, "Like I care." Her face
showing only cool disdain.
A customer moved towards the cash register with an item to purchase
and Anya hurried over to take his money before he could change
his mind.
Xander looked at Giles. "Um, Cordy. Are you sure you don't
remember..."
"Oh wait a minute!" Cordy interrupted "Dawn's Willow's
lesbo- girlfriend!"
"No!" Xander burst out horrified.
"I'd always wondered if Angel or Cordelia would know Dawn."
Giles commented to himself as he cleaned his glasses again.
Anya came back over after making the sale. "No, Willow's
girlfriend's name is Tara. She's very nice." Anya patted
Xander's arm. "He's just upset because Dawn's Buffy's little
sister and he can't handle the idea of her having sex. Dawn that
is, not Buffy." Anya gave a stern glance at Xander who was
still sputtering a little. "He still thinks too much about
Buffy's sex life."
Cordy rolled her eyes. "I remember, he used to do that when
he dated me! It was such a turn off."
"I caught him checking out her butt two days ago during training
and we haven't had sex since."
Xander, his face scarlet, tried to stop her. "Ahn, I didn't
do anything wrong! Really!"
"You apologized!"
"If I didn't apologize, you'd never stop being mad at me.
What can I do to make amends?"
"Stop checking out Buffy! I don't like it." Anya pouted.
"But, we could do that thing we did last month..."
Giles and Cordelia moved towards the research table to get away
from the couple who had started kissing in the middle of the sales
floor.
"So Giles," Cordelia began, "Last time I checked
Buffy was an only child."
"It's complicated, Cordelia. It seems that last year, in
the time of mystical convergence, to prevent the hellbeast Glorificus
from subsuming the essence of the Key, the Monks of..."
"Short version, Giles. I'm getting wrinkles just listening
to you. Thank God I'm breaking Wesley of that habit."
Giles glared at her. It occurred to him he hadn't missed her that
much. "OK. Last year some monks cast a spell turning the
Key into Dawn, Buffy's 14-year-old sister. We all got fake memories.
The end." That'll show her.
"What did they make her out of, gingerbread?"
"No, mystical energy from the dawn of time."
"Oh."
"She's a very sweet girl. She reminds me of Buffy when I
first met her. Full of innocence with just a touch of rule breaking."
He grinned at Cordelia. "I love the helpless looks on Buffy's
face when Dawn breaks some of the same rules Buffy did."
Of course, he didn't love it when Buffy expected him to reprimand
Dawn.
"That's nice." Cordy cut into his reverie. "Is
April Fool's still in business? I want to go in there and torment
the manager a little before I leave town." Yes, she'd grown
as a person, but there are things that a girl's gotta do.
***
The Zeppo/Bad Girls/Consequences - mundusmundi
Spike could smell them coming a block away, even while taking
a last drag on a cigarette and trying to ignore the fact he hadn't
bathed since the time Angelus pushed him overboard into the Sea
of Japan.
"Well, well, pet," he said, flicking the cigarette to
a nearby tombstone. The cemetery glowed in the pale moonlight.
"Come back for some more vamp action, have we?"
Buffy stuck a finger down her throat, flashed Spike that look
of pure disgust he knew all too well and said "Don't be gross."
Oh, yeah, he thought, she's turned on.
"And you've brought another little chickadee." Spike
squinted in the dark at the tall figure behind the Slayer. "Well,
plenty of the Big Bad to share. And who might you be?"
"You idiot," Cordelia said. "Me."
Suddenly Spike felt the compulsion for another cig. "Oh.
Right. Sorry. Good to see you again. Nice heels," he dissembled.
Cordelia stood beside Buffy and said, "I don't believe this.
'Miss It Girl' leaves town for a couple years and suddenly she's
yesterday's Glamour. Thank the Powers Angel still appreciates
me."
"Maybe we should take a picture of the two of us together,
for your old Boy Toy," Spike suggested. "Technically,
I shouldn't show up on film, but somehow rules do get skirted
around here for the sake of convenience."
Cordy's hands were on her hips. "And now you're tombing up
with his old lackey! What's next, Oz boinking a she-wolf?"
"It-it-it's just a phase," Buffy said. "I mean
me, not Oz. Spike, will you put away the Zeppo and listen?"
He snapped the lighter shut. "It's a Zippo, luv. And who
really wants to talk? Less quibble, more nibble."
"Ewwww," Cordy said, and clutched her stomach. "And
I used to think I was-- "
"You're both bad girls." Spike tried to put an arm around
Buffy, only to get brushed back. "You both taste the darkness.
You love it. You breathe it. You live it every day. And you'll
stop at nothing until you--"
"Wow, Mr. Perceptive!" Cordy cut in. "Well, listen
up, Fergie and Andrew. The only reason I came back was to tell
you I had a vision."
"A vision," Buffy said.
"Of the two of you. Doing that...voodoo that you do. Why
do you think I'm carrying this around?" Cordy opened a small
traveler's bottle of Pepto Bismol and downed a shot. "Don't
you realize what you're doing? There are consequences to everything."
"Are you saying we're going to die?" Buffy asked. "Or
maybe I get to stake him, 'cause that'd work."
Cordelia started to answer, but instead reached for her head.
"Oh, shi-" she said, and fell to the ground.
***
Doppelgangland/Enemies/Earshot - d'Herblay
"Spike!" Buffy yelled. "Go get help! Go get Giles!"
cardinalcrimsonprimrosebloodshot eyes opening on a rain of frogs.
The salamander cannot hear the salamanderer. Sha'i-Pir. Humanbodies
oozing dripping like ice creamcones bisected: parable, ellipsis,
hyperbole. Martial tunes are played with jovial glee; venereal
disease rots the soldierboys. Sha'i-Pir. Immanuel and ornithorhynchus
echo through the warfields as mercurial passions awaken saturnine
morning. Sha'i-Pir. Lunaticlunatic but nothing for the sun? Nothing
for the son?
Bloodshot eyes opened unto the sun. But while there was a man
in the moon, what face had the sun? Cordelia blinked, tried to
focus. It was Buffy, staring down at her, illuminated in the harsh
incandescence of the headlights of Xander's car. Cordelia noted
that Buffy had still not accepted her shiny complexion when a
spasm of pain drove the thought from her head.
"Are you all right?" asked Buffy. "What's your
name?"
Xander loomed overhead. "What year is it?"
"Come on, pet, don't swallow your tongue . . . um . . . how
many fingers am I holding up?"
Anya, languid in the back seat of the car, perked up. "Ooh!
I've got a question! In World War Two, what was a G.I.'s shaving
bag called?"
"Anya, I really don't think that's the sort of question you
ask when you're assessing someone after a seizure," Giles
pointed out. "You might as well ask who acquired the friezes
of the Parthenon for the British Museum."
"Or what type of structure the pituitary and the adrenal
are examples of," added Tara. Noticing the looks the others
gave her, she stammered, "I was pre-med before I got into
Wicca."
Grabbing Buffy's shoulder, Cordelia pulled herself upwards. "Who
died and made you guys Regis? Cordelia. 2001. None; that's a cigarette.
Dopp. Elgan. Gland. Codeine."
"That's Elgin. Bloody colonials with your creative pronunciations.
But, I suppose we'll accept it under the circumstances."
Spike rested a hand lightly on Cordelia's shoulder. "I've
got some codeine in my crypt, love. Sometimes I get headaches
too."
Buffy whacked him on the back. "You what?"
"Well, the town is running out of demons, and I need to stay
trim. I don't kill anyone, just break a few bones now and again."
"Boy," said Xander. "You can lead a vampire to
chipsville, but you can't make him not drink."
Buffy shot an evil look at Spike. "We'll discuss this later.
Cordelia, can you move?"
"Not so well. It hurts when I stand up. Or when I sit down.
And when I breathe or think."
"Well," said Xander, "you should be okay then."
"Right, Mr. Three-years-out-of-high-school-and-I'm-still-
hanging-with-my-loser-friends. I see some new faces."
Tara extended a hand. "Willow's watching Dawn. I'm Tara.
I'm Willow's girlfriend." She pulled the hand back. "I
understand you might have some issues with that. Well, I'm here,
I'm queer, and I hope that's all right."
"Whatever. You can rub my neck. That always helps after a
vision."
As Tara positioned herself behind Cordelia, Giles leaned down.
"That was a vision? Fascinating. It appeared to take the
form of a grand mal seizure. Or a class-six demonic possession."
"Well, the Powers-That-Be don't tread lightly. You have soft
hands."
"Thank you," Tara said. "I use a poultice of newt's
liver and ginseng."
"Xander? Come rub my neck for a while. Anyway, the vision
I got was a doozy. It said that the Sha'i-Pir wars are imminent."
Buffy's forehead formed a furrow of perplexion. "The shipper
wars? What are those."
"The Sha'i-Pir wars," explained Giles, "are written
of in the Codex of Adhem Ibn Nizamuddin. They are the final event
any seer has foreseen. A war of biblical proportions, they turn
healthy communities overnight into blood-soaked ground."
"Right," said Cordelia. "One day, everyone's, 'Oh!
Good to see you. Hope you're doing well.' And the next, there
are crosses and stakes and entrails everywhere."
"But the Sha'i-Pir wars require the conjunction of two great
enemies to be unleashed. And I know of no such conjunction."
With a quick jerk of his head, Spike beckoned Buffy aside. "You
know, if these wars the girl talks about are imminent, perhaps
we should go easy on things. Before we start having to make some
hard choices."
Buffy shook her head. "It's too early for that. Plus, Cordelia
talking. This is the woman who once swore that she knew Gwyneth
Paltrow before the nose job."
Back by Xander's car, Willow and Dawn approached.
"Hey, guys, sorry we're late. I was showing Dawn how to turn
a bus-full of innocent people into salamanders for one's own enjoyment
and we had some trouble turning them back. Surprisingly, I have
almost as much salamander-fear as I do frog-fear."
"Frog-fear is a ridiculous phobia," said Anya.
Dawn smiled broadly. "It was neat. I learned how to shape
the universe to my will without a twinge of compunction."
Giles flapped his hand at them. "Quiet. We're trying to decipher
mystical prophecies here. Now this conjoining, what could it be?"
"Well," said Cordelia, "Wesley suggested that certain
forces of the universe could not handle the idea of Buffy dancing
the fang-dango with a second vampire. So when Spike and Buffy
had sex, all hell broke loose."
Dawn's eyes began to water. "What? Buffy had sex with Spike?
After all that's happened? How could she make such a stupid choice?"
Tears now streaming down her cheeks, she ran to Buffy and pounded
her with both fists. "You're supposed to be keeping me safe
and you're ignoring me so you can do that?" She took off
running.
Cordelia leaned over towards Giles. "Maybe we shouldn't have
talked about this within earshot of the fake girl."
"Dawn!" Buffy called. "Come back! I'll explain
everything! At least stay off of Elmwood Drive. There's a nest
of Garivo demons I haven't cleaned out yet."
She returned to the group. "Well, there's an apocalypse on
the horizon and Dawn needs rescuing. We all know the drill. Let's
saddle up."
Xander stood solidly still. "Actually, Dawn raises an interesting
point. Namely, the point of what the hell?"
***
Choices/The Prom/Graduation Day, Part One - Wisewoman
Buffy stared back at him, hands on hips. "Excuse me?"
"You slept with Spike?" Xander looked stunned.
"And your point is?"
"On the top of my head, obviously. How come I didn't know
this?"
"That's not really the point, is it? And the point of all
this getting-to-the-pointyness is, I've got to go and save Dawn."
Anya managed to worm her way between the two antagonists, facing
Xander. "Sweetie, what are you trying to say? Do you think
we should just let the little girl die? 'Cause I'll support you
if that's what you want. You're the man I'm going to marry!"
She beamed up at him happily, before pulling his head
down for a very enthusiastic kiss.
"Okay, eeeewwww!" Cordelia was still shakily holding
a hand to her head. The rolling of her eyes seemed to be causing
her more pain. "Just what has been going on here? I can't
believe how messed up you guys are. I can fix this. Buffy, you're
supposed to be with Angel..."
Spike jumped from his perch on the counter and strode toward Cordelia.
"Look, just sod off, okay? This isn't helping..."
Cordelia rounded on him. "And you, you are SO obviously meant
to spend eternity with Drusilla." She glanced around the
room. "Xander and Willow are destined to end up together..."
"What?" Tara yelped. "I...sorry, I just never th-
thought..."
"Okay, so that leaves you at a loose end, Ms. Lesbo Fantastico,
but I don't see any reason why you wouldn't hit it off with the
ex-Vengeance-Demon here. I mean, c'mon Anya, you must have a thousand
years' worth of reasons to swear off men forever, am I right?"
Anya looked thoughtful. "Now that you mention it..."
"Great. Okay, that leaves Giles and...me. Ooops! Can't have
that. Giles, why don't you just go back to England and look up
that friend of yours, what was her name, Olivia? And I'm gonna
head back to LA and take up with Wesley where we left off years
ago. I might even do some matchmaking for Gunn and Fred."
"Hang on...I don't even know where Dru's got to." Spike's
tone was verging on a whine. "She could be dead and dusted,
for all I know."
"Hey, SO not my problem. Go look up Harmony then...oh, I
forgot, she left you too, didn't she, Mr. I'm-so-Big-and-Bad?"
Spike's snarl preceded the assumption of game face. Cordy took
a quick step back.
"Okay, okay, chill! Oh, I know...what about Junior!Buffy?
You're both about the same age mentally..."
Suddenly there was dead silence in the shop. No one spoke. No
one moved. All eyes were trained on Cordelia, who finally let
out a nervous little laugh.
"What? Hey, it was just a suggestion..."
Buffy slowly moved toward Cordelia, her hands clenched at her
sides. From nowhere, Giles leapt between them, holding open a
large and moldy book.
"I've found it...I...I think." He kept Buffy away from
Cordelia with one hand, while squinting at the ancient and all-but-
indecipherable tome.
"The Sha'i-Pir wars, yes, it's here in the Codex, but it's
difficult to...the conjunction appears to be of two, well, two
people, one 'not dead' and one 'not alive.' Huh. Odd way of putting
it...in, in any event, the joining of these two will divide the
entire world. Some will revel in the...the...depravity of their
union, while others, um, become nauseated at the very thought.
Well. There. You see? That's obviously the answer. Spike is the
'not dead' individual and Buffy is the...Aaaiiiiyyyeeee!"
"See, Giles?" Buffy smiled sarcastically. "Definitely
alive. Total aliveness here. Not even a little bit 'not alive.'"
Giles rolled on the floor in agony, curled in a foetal position.
"Uh...yes...," he managed to gasp. "Sorry...wrong
interpretation..."
Anya had slipped her arm through Tara's and rested her head on
the taller woman's shoulder. "Well, what are the other choices?
I think it means Dawn. She's not really alive, is she?"
"Right," Willow piped up from her perch on Xander's
lap. "That's right, so, so it probably means, if we keep
Dawn and Spike apart..."
"Presto. No Sha'i-Pir wars," Xander finished triumphantly.
He gazed lovingly at Willow and whispered in her ear, "I
can't believe you wouldn't let me take you to the prom."
Cordelia had a look of smug satisfaction. "Looks to me like
all of you are finally starting to grow up. Buffy? You wanna head
back to LA with me? I'm sure Angel's just dy...uh, he'll be really
happy to see you."
Buffy pouted. "I'm not sure. I don't really get this part.
I mean, I got the whole, "Into every generation," slayer
part, and the "class protector at the prom" part and
the "Mayor turns into a giant snake on Graduation Day"
part...one thing I always wanted to know, though. How come people
keep trying to
push me back into the "hopelessly-in-love-with- the-bad-hair-
vamp part?"
No one replied.
***
Graduation Day, Part Two/The Freshman/Living Conditions
- mundusmundi
No one replied...until of course Anya replied, since Anya always
replied after a time when nobody else bothered to do the replying.
"So long as you mentioned the 'Mayor turns into a snake on
Graduation Day' part...two things I've always meant to ask you
about that," Anya said to Buffy, as they walked home with
the others. "First, why did you leave Faith's knife on the
balcony for anyone to find it, and second-- "
Giles interjected, "We can discuss hoary contrivances from
past epis--er, past events of our lives later. Right now, it's
imperative that we find Dawn, contact Buffy's gadabout father,
and send her far away from Sunnydale before the prophecy of the
Sha'i-Pir wars is fulfilled. Agreed?"
"Agreed," all chimed in.
"Nobody lays a hand on the little bit," Spike growled.
The gang's progress came to an abrupt halt.
"What are you doing?" Buffy demanded.
It took a beat for Spike to realize. "Right. Sorry. Force
of habit."
"You can't be anywhere near Dawn. Ever. Again. Shoo. Go home."
They watched him retreat. "All too relevant question. Why
don't we send Spike away instead?" Xander wondered.
Willow tapped Buffy on the shoulder. "You 'kay?" she
whispered. "Still worried about that thing you've become
since I selfishly resurrected you from the dead?"
Buffy shook her head. "It's not that. I'm just trying to
figure out why this always happens to me. I-I-I mean, what kind
of people would care about who I'm having sex with?"
***
Across the street, the van stalked the Scooby Gang, keeping a
safe distance with its headlights off.
"Dude, slow down," Warren ordered. "We can't let
her see us."
At the wheel, Andrew chuckled. The new night vision goggles over
his eyes, souped-up to broadcast free cable porn, worked like
a charm. "She won't be seeing us at all before long, not
after we get the--"
"Don't spoil it," Jonathan whined, and smacked Andrew's
shoulder. He came from the back of the van and motioned him to
turn right. "You're always doing that. Like when we saw Harry
Potter, and I thought Quirrell was the good guy, and Snape the
bad one."
"It's your own fault you haven't started the books,"
Warren said. "Been too busy playing with your magic bone?"
They giggled. Andrew added, "Alan Rickman rocks my world."
The van turned on Elmwood Drive, where a nest of Garivo demons
lay at the very end. "Do you see her?" Warren asked.
Andrew adjusted the goggles, and the movie Cum-ing Home gave way
to a night vision scanner. Through the ultraviolet rays he detected
Buffy's sister, Dawn.
"The freshman has left the kegger," he intoned. On Warren
and Jonathan's quizzical looks he added, "It's code. Hello?"
"Are you saying she's by herself?" Warren asked.
Andrew nodded. "The pigeon has left the roost."
Warren took the goggles and watched as Dawn kicked a mailbox with
her foot. The SuperMic caught a faint echo of "Ow...."
Removing the goggles, Warren said, "The pigeon is headed
directly to the nest. Just as planned. I know you're both aware
that although I asked you to trust me, Phase 2 was a big bust,
what with that thing the Slayer has become and all. But trust
me when I promise you that Phase 3 cannot fail!"
"Should we...you know...wait and watch? Make sure they don't
hurt her," Jonathan murmured.
"What for? We've got primo living conditions waiting for
us back home." Warren and Andrew switched seats and the former
backed up the van. "The freeze gun, the gorilla thing. And
this morning, in the make-out room, Mom added a strobe light."
He smiled.
"Oooh, bitchin'," Andrew and Jonathan said.
"To the bronze," Warren said, "for chips and chicks."
And they left Dawn to her fate.
***
[> Round Robin - Part II
-- Marie, 06:45:00 06/09/03 Mon
The Harsh Light of Day/Fear, Itself/Beer Bad - MrDave
The three would-be-supervillains parked their deathvan outside
the Bronze and sauntered in. The high-school crowd eyed the obviously
older trio a little oddly as they chose a dark and (relatively)
quiet corner to plan (and watch the young girls dancing).
Andrew started with "So how are we going to eliminate Buffy
again anyway?"
Warren snickered..."I vote we wait until her boyfriend gives
her a 'love bite' and then we drag her into the harsh light of
day"
Jonathan seemed a little dismayed at the suggestion.." No,
it'll be easier to divert her attention elsewhere."
Jonathan pulled out his Palm and showed the others the presentation
he had prepared to outline his plan.
"It's simple boys. We want to control Sunnydale, so we have
to create a state of chaos. So first we start with suffering.
When the people suffer, they begin to hate. The hate is transferred
to the government, and the government begins to fear. It's the
opposite of the Jedi..."
Warren cut him off "We got it...where do we start?"
Jonathan continued, "Well then, its simple. Fear, itself
is our weapon. By..."
Andrew and Warren in unison, "Get on with it!"
Jonathan: "Okay enough with the Mojo Jojo imitation. We create
suffering through emotional turmoil. The diamond we liberated
is large enough to create a subsonic frequency that excites certain
neural clusters in the cerebral cortex to cause a low- level headache.
This in turn makes everyone cranky..."
"That's it?" blurted out Warren, "That's the stupidest
plan I ever heard!"
Andrew was quick to add "I have to agree, it does seem a
little half-baked."
Jonathan backed up defensively. "Oh really? And you have
a better plan?"
Warren snapped back, "What about the plan that we, "
he gestured around the table at the troika, "planned together
weeks ago. The one we stole the diamond for in the first
place? Phase One? Remember?"
Jonathan looked whipped, "But that plan involves killing
Buffy. This one just gets her out of the way"
Andrew looked back at Warren, like an observer at a tennis match.
Warren looked smug, "And why not kill her?"
Jonathan backed down. This was not the time or the place. In fact
there was one thing this was the time and place for. "I need
a beer. Bad."
***
Wild at Heart/The Initiative/Pangs - MrDave
Dawn stomped down the street until she was sure Buffy couldn't
see her any more...then she doubled back towards the house. The
Scoobies wouldn't look there for hours.
Pulling out the earplugs from her pocket she clicked play on her
MP3 player and half skipped to the tune Wild at Heart by Arora
K. She dug this song, especially the lyrics:
THIS ROAD TAKES US NOWHERE
I'M WATCHING YOU DISAPPEAR
THIS TIME MAYBE FOR REAL
SHOULD I FEAR?
TO FOLLOW THE NORTH STAR
WHILST THE FLOW OF LIFE YOU CAN'T HEAR
NOW LET'S GET SOMETHING CLEAR
YOU'RE WILD AT HEART, WILD AT HEART, WILD AT HEART
I'M TRYING TO IGNORE
TIPS OF THE SURROUNDING NIGHT
WHISPERING YOU CAN'T SURVIVE
Great stuff. As she hopped up the front porch steps to the chorus
she reached for her keys, only to find her pocket was empty. "Well
this bites," she thought.
"Can't get in?" said a voice behind her.
Turning around, she saw a boy from her class. She thought his
name might be Tommy.
"Um...I have a key here somewhere," said Dawn, "I
just can't find it"
"Its okay, I can't get in either. Want to hang out?"
he asked.
Since Dawn remembered him from class, she decided it couldn't
be all bad. "Sure"
Sitting on the front porch together, Tommy talked about how he
couldn't get into his house and went walking down the street looking
for someone with a phone. "We have a phone inside,"
offered Dawn.
"Can I go inside and use it?"
Suddenly Dawn felt like the question was weird. A leading question.
She remembered when her initiative had allowed Harmony into the
house to attack Xander. "Well, I can't let you in...no key."
"Well then, lets walk back into town. I can use a pay phone,
and I am getting hunger pangs." He stood up and started to
walk, "Coming?"
Dawn stood, walked right behind him and jabbed her pencil into
his back.
"What the hell!" yelled Tommy, as he whipped around
to grab the bloody pencil. "What was that all about?"
Dawn was too embarrassed to say anything. He wasn't a vampire,
he was just a boy. She just cried and ran around the back of the
house. "Oh no, oh my...If Buffy finds out she'll be furious.
And I am such a dork!"
***
Something Blue/Hush/Doomed/A New Man - d'Herblay
Dawn half-skipped as they walked downtown. "So, Buffy's been
ignoring me to sleep with Spike, who I don't think she really
loves, she's just using him. And Spike must be caught up in her
spell 'cause he's been ignoring me too, which is almost worse.
And now they're listening to Cordelia, who's never done nothing
in her life but ignore me. She says the Monks didn't give her
any memories, but the entire time she lived in Sunnydale she was
like 'What should I wear? Something red or something green? Buffy
has a sister? That's nice. Maybe something blue. I know! Something
short and tight and slutty!'"
Tommy touched his wounded shoulder.
"Oh my God, I'm sorry. Do you want to go to a hospital?"
"No, it's just a flesh wound. It's not like you drove that
thing into my heart or anything."
"I didn't? And I thought I was getting stronger. Anyway,
and what is she saying she didn't know Buffy died? Wasn't she
paying any attention when Willow took the bus to L.A. and told
her? I heard that she had just gone through a big break-up, but
still. I'm beginning to think that it's not really Cordelia at
all, just an incredible simulacrum. 'Simulacrum,' I like that
word. Tara got me one of those calendars."
Tommy stopped suddenly and turned towards her. "Hush a minute.
I'd like to kiss you."
"Well, ok, but there's something I have to know first."
She reached towards his neck.
"I shaved this week. Go on, feel how smooth my face is."
Her first two fingers found the groove on the side of his larynx.
She closed her eyes so she could concentrate on the sensation.
Thump-thump. She smiled, and her fingers stayed on his neck as
it dipped towards her chin. She felt warmer, safer as he embraced
her. Thumpity-thumpity as his lips met
hers and hers met his and she wasn't sure what to do with her
tongue but then she knew and tum-tum-tum-tum and it was the best
feeling she ever knew.
And it was over. Dawn wiped her mouth with the back of her hand
to hide her smile. "Arbor Day. 'Simulacrum' was Arbor Day."
Tommy loosened his embrace. "So," he said, "want
to go to the Bronze?"
"The Bronze? Nothing ever happens there."
***
Back in the corner, Warren was saying, "And now you've got
a real bad beer. Was it worth the wait?"
Jonathan looked into his mug. "I can't believe they wouldn't
take my I.D. and I have to drink this O'Douls crap."
"Well, did you really expect them to believe that you look
like a Rodrigo Obregon?"
"We should add that to the master plan," said Andrew.
"Step fourteen: better fake I.D.s."
Jonathan pulled his head up and nodded towards the front. "Looks
like there's trouble."
Teenagers ran screaming from the front door as several large creatures
entered the club. They were six feet tall and nearly as broad
in the shoulders, and their faces were nothing but clicking mandibles
and waving antennae and large, grayishly iridescent eyes, multifaceted
like smoky jewels. They dragged flat abdomens behind them as the
steel-toed boots on their hind- most legs crossed the floor. Two
sets of arms emerged from the chain-mail-coated thoraces. They
carried spears and axes with blades shaped like French curves.
Their exoskeletons were ruddy and their eyes spoke of blood and
anger.
From the back doors emerged a cadre of blue-robed things. Thin
and ethereal, they seemed well over seven feet tall. The robes
had no arms and touched the floor as they just glided along smoothly,
no rustling to betray the movement or even existence of legs.
Their faces were blank, lost in mist except for seven small reddish
glints of light deep in the blackness. Occasionally a thin something
would flick out of one of their cowls, as if tasting the air.
Jonathan tightened his fist around the handle of the mug. "Guys,
it looks like a lot of these people are doomed. Think we should
do something?"
Warren shrugged. "We're super-villains. We can talk to these
people, er . . . these insects and, I don't know, strange faceless
hovercrafts. Andrew, you got any idea what these things are?"
"No. I don't think they're human."
Warren slapped the back of Andrew's head. "Yeah, they're
not human. Thanks a lot, Little Stevie Hawking. As if Sunnydale
was frequented by men wearing rubber suits."
Jonathan shrank back against the wall. "Whatever they are,
they don't look friendly. I'd like to reiterate the 'doomed' idea."
Across the room, a group of the armored ant-lions had surrounded
a table. One of the teenagers in the middle started to change.
He sprouted another set of arms and his bones extruded themselves
and melted to coat the outside of his muscles. He had metamorphosed
into one of the insectoid demons.
"Dude," said Warren. "I think they're recruiting."
Next to the pool table one of the blue-robed things spoke to a
Hemery High linebacker. "Pir who do you believe pir is the
Slayer's destiny?"
The football player looked at him blankly, all the time testing
the weight of the cue in his hand. "Slayer? What's a slayer?"
"A pir newbie! Newbies must pir die!" And a long tentacle
wrapped itself around the jock's neck. Before the football player
could even try to use the cue as a weapon, he was pulled, struggling,
into the hood of the specter's robe.
"On the other hand," said Warren, "I could go with
'doomed.'"
One of the insects approached their table. The metallic clanging
of its mandibles resolved itself into a mechanically inflected
English. "Who sha'i is the Slayer's one true love?"
A blue robe silently glided to join them. "With whom is it
her pir destiny to be forever entwined?"
Warren cocked his head. "Buffy? Well obviously, with me."
Jonathan said, "Or me."
"Spike."
Warren and Jonathan both turned to Andrew. "Dude," said
Warren, "did someone cast a spell and make you a chick? Spike?
That soulless retro retread?"
"Well, he's got that coat, and cool hair and that accent."
Warren shook his head. "No, the only person for Buffy is
me. Or maybe that Faith chick she used to hang around with."
As the insect regarded him with interest, Andrew continued, "Plus,
we're both thin blond guys, so I can identify with him. And sure
he doesn't have a soul, but he has a chip and his love for Buffy
puts him on the road to redemption. Sha'i."
Warren reached across the table. "Dude! Do not do a Goldblum
on me!"
But it was too late; the metamorphosis had begun. Andrew started
to grow taller and broader. "And he is redeemable sha'i.
Somewhere within him is William the poet. He's the most romantic
sha'i figure in Sunnydale." The second pair of arms had emerged,
and Andrew was forced forward as his abdomen grew long behind
his legs. The other insect handed him an axe. "And sha'i
they have great sha'i chemistry."
"Whatever, dude. I'm saying Buffy and Jessica Alba. Theirs
is a true and forbidden love." Warren looked sullenly at
his formerly human friend.
The blue robed specter spoke up. "Pir that is so not cool."
"Huh?"
The first insect waggled his antennae. "Sapphic love is a
sha'i beautiful expression of love and intimacy between two people.
It does not sha'i exist for your casual enjoyment."
"Whatever. Now Buffy and Denise Richards, that would be a
beautiful expression. I don't understand why she always has to
be with the vampires. Is it something with the oral fixation?"
Jonathan looked over to him. "You weren't around while Angel
was still in Sunnydale. You never really saw the two of them together.
They had a perfect story, heartbreaking in its tragic dimensions.
Living just for each other but doomed to be kept apart."
"Dude, will you stop saying 'doomed'? We got it already."
"Will you stop saying 'dude'?" retorted Jonathan.
"The truth, dude? You suck. Heartbreaking tragedy my ass.
If he cared so much about Buffy, why'd he leave? What Buffy needs
is a night with one of the girls from Dream. Not the one who can
actually sing, but any of the others. Or all three of them. Either
way, I'm happy."
"Buffy and Angel. You just felt for those two. The vampire
with a soul and the woman he loved but couldn't touch. Spike is
nothing but sex and witty banter. There's nothing real there.
Pir. Oh, God."
Jonathan's lips started to extend and protrude into tentative
tentacles as his face pockmarked itself, growing new eye sockets.
His hands and legs just started to fade, becoming one with the
air around.
"Cowl this pir!" yelled the specter.
A blue robe was thrown over Jonathan before his torso had evaporated
completely, before it was revealed what new structures had grown
within him.
Warren backed against the wall. He grabbed Jonathan's mug and
began to brandish it. He punctuated his sentences with dramatic
waves as he said "Either way, she's loving a vampire. And
what's the point of that? She's just going to get old and sooner
or later they're going to get evil. Now, you want to know who
Buffy should be with? That chick from Cruel Intentions."
"Selma Blair?" asked the now ethereal Jonathan.
"Reese Wither-sha'i-spoon?" asked the first insect.
"No, the other one. Sarah Michelle something. Gellar, that's
it. Buffy. Sarah Michelle Gellar. Me in my easy chair with a bowl
of popcorn watching some hot lesbian action. And for those keeping
score at home, that's 'lesbian' spelled with a z. Can I hear an
amen?"
Andrew swung the axe through Warren's waist, bisecting him as
Jonathan pulled his upper body into the dark recesses of his robe.
Warren's hips and legs fell useless to the Bronze floor.
"Tasty," said Jonathan.
Andrew waggled an antenna. "I feel sha'i like a new man."
Before he had finished the thought he was pushed forward into
the table. Pretzels flew as the other insect started forward and
was met with Andrew's axe between his eyes. Jonathan threw out
a tentacle which just provided something for him to be pulled
forward by. He collapsed and was kicked in the region of the robe
where his solar plexus might have been. The first specter glided
silently away in retreat.
"You look like a new bug. Consider me your windshield,"
said Buffy.
***
(Next: "The I in Team"; "Goodbye Iowa"; "This
Year's Girl)
[> [> The I in Team/Goodbye
Iowa /This Year's Girl -- Marie, 06:50:21 06/09/03 Mon
"Cool move, B!"
Buffy whirled.
"Faith! What are you- I mean, aren't you- er.. okay, colour
me confused! When did you come out of your coma?"
"Don't sweat it, Buffy. I was in jail, actually, until Wes-
oh, never mind - they haven't written that yet. Got bored, thought
I'd come on down to good old Sunny D. and look you up." Glancing
over at the retreating sha'i-pirs, she added "Looks like
I missed the party, though."
Narrowing her eyes, Buffy asked "So we're friends, now?"
Faith shrugged. "Sure. I'm gonna get redemption or something,
so may as well start practising the good life. Not," she
added, with a warning look "that that means I'll be joining
the Gang and worshipping at the Altar of Buffy or anything!"
Buffy grimaced. "You always were one to put the 'I' in 'Team',
weren't you, Faith?"
Faith grinned. "C'm on. I'll buy you a beer and you can catch
me up on things. And we never did get to say a proper goodbye.
Iowa- oh, never mind."
As Faith started to turn away, Buffy gripped her shoulder.
"Iowa? What's that supposed to mean? Is that where you went?
Where you're going?"
"Puh-lease! Why the hell would anyone go to Iowa? I was just
gonna say I-", she stopped, and a slight pink tinge coloured
her cheeks. At Buffy's amazed look, she scowled. "I owe a
damn tab here, okay! I don't have any damn money to pay it, okay?
So let's just get the hell out of here, okay!" Muttering
to herself, she spun on her heels and stalked out.
Shaking her head, Buffy followed her. "Okaaay!"
Neither noticed the two who watched them go.
***
"Hey."
"Hey. Know you, don' I?"
"Oz."
"Oh. Right. The one with the van. Still a werewolf?"
"Hmm. Still dead?"
"Yeah. But gotta soul now."
There was silence for a beat or two, as they both gazed at the
exit doors. Then Spike turned to the other man. "Lookin'
for the witch? 'Cos last I heard, she was walkin' a different
road, y'know?"
"Yeah. So who's this year's girl? Or is it still Tara?"
"You know Tara?"
"We met."
"Nice girl."
"Hmm. Well"
"Yeah well see ya"
They both started towards the exit. Stopped, looked at each other.
"Still got the van?"
"Outside. Lift?"
"Yeah."
***
(Next: Who Are You?/Superstar/Where the Wild Things Are)
[> [> [> Me next,
coming soon! -- TCH, 07:25:06 06/09/03 Mon
[> [> [> Mischievously
setting up a cross-over -- Tchaikovsky, 07:45:44 06/09/03
Mon
Faith and Buffy were speaking. Uneasily, but it was a start.
'Never one to bear grudges. Attempt at my death. Vengeance. Seeing
yourself in me. That was the thing, B. I was always the thing
you couldn't feel inside you. I was your darkness. The path you've
always wanted to take...'
'Perhaps. But you know what Faith? You had every chance. You stole
my life back then, and I still came to talk to you. Kakistos had
you down, but you could work it through. It was your love of the
kill.'
'Oh, I get it. I never thanked you for your matryrdom complex.
Here I am saving the world again. You know what, B, you can't
drag that out of you. Always the righteous one?'
Buffy shifted uncomfortably. 'It's not that simple Faith. It's
not just the saving the world- and then trophies on the mantle-
piece. The saving hurts. And every time I feel more alone. It's
isolation, and then- what? Death? It's all I can do to shut myself
off from the Slayer, so that it's not only me. It's hard, but
I know who I am. The Slayer. And Buffy. The question is, why are
you here. Who are you?'
*************
Back at the Summers' house, Buffy, Willow, Xander Dawn and Giles
talked uneasily.
'S-so you're saying Buffy, that Faith and Oz are back?
That's quite an extraordinary co-incidence'
'Chalk it up there with the beginning of 'Magnolia'. Could have
sworn it was Oz, but maybe not. Guess we'll find out soon enough,
if he wants us to know. Question is- what do we do about this?
Faith thinks that Los Angeles is headed for an apocalypse.'
'Well, Buff, not meaning to shoot the superiority of the ole Scoobies,
but you know Angel's there already? He'll be dealing, right?'
Giles wasn't sure.
'In situations like this Willow, the more help they can get the
better. Faith didn't just bust out of jail for the f-fun of it.'
'Well, actually, that probably had something to do with. She was
whistling 'The Great Escape' a lot. And she had one of those heavy-duty
shovel things. I love it when you do that look.'
'I am your mentor Buffy. One day I might not be needed, but for
the moment I instil a little dignity to the proceedings. If you're
feeling up to it, I say you ring up Angel.'
Willow giggled. 'Yeah, cos that's always a chore.'
'So what's the bloody superstar gonna do this time, eh? You know
we have all the stuff we need here. I say let's gang up and go.'
Willow was dumbfounded. And not by Spike. She managed, almost
as an apology an 'Oz.'
There was an uncomfortable silence.
'When I come back, it's never the noisiest place, this house.'
'A-actually, last time it was my house you came to,' Giles volunteered,
trying to break the silence. 'I always wondered how you worked
out Willow would be there. Quite a mystery.'
'So, Oz, you're here again. Any reason?' Buffy did that stoic
look that always appears just before one of her long, extraordinarily
spontaneous plans of action.
'Heard all about what's happening in LA. Turns out that I laid
my hands on the Rock of Naszturshol. I was going to barter it
for some wolf-y stuff, but I figured with what's about to happen...'
'What do you know?'
'It will take a while'.
'OK, here's what we do. Giles and Willow, you research what I
was telling you from what Faith told me. All mystical convergences,
tsunami, you know the drill. Oz, you tell me all you know about
the Nasturtiam rock thing. But we need to find out what we can
about where the wild things are. Spike, you ring Angel, ask what
they know...'
'You've got to be kidding. Last time I rang Angel it ended in...'
'Deaths?' Willow interjected.
'More like arguments about snack foods' Spike countered angrily.
'Spike, stop being the child and just do it. Xander, you go and
find Faith. I reckon we need her'.
'A-a-are we ready for F-Faith to be back here, Buffy. I mean...'
Giles stumbled a little
'You mean, am I ready? I didn't think so, but now we need all
the fire-power we can get.'
Willow and Oz looked at each other, as if, rather than separated
by years, their last few scenes were only hours ago.
'So Oz, you ready to fill me in on the rock thing?'
'Buffy, could I just have a minute. Or two?'
Willow looked at Buffy, alll puppy dog eyes and confused pleading.
'Fine. I'll ring Angel. Spike, go with Xander, find Faith, she's
at Clark's off the main street'
'Anyone else ever feel like an under-utilised minor character
in a debut fan fiction?' asked Xander weakly.
'All the time', said Dawn.
TCH
Next: 'New Moon Rising', 'The Yoko Factor', 'Primeval'
[> [> [> [> Next:
'New Moon Rising', 'The Yoko Factor', 'Primeval' -- Who will
bite?, 10:01:49 06/11/03 Wed
[> [> [> [> [>
Are you claiming this? 'cos I may claim it myself! -- Marie,
who's bored at work today!, 06:05:10 06/12/03 Thu
[> [> [> [> [>
[> Dunno- 'who will bite?' is not me- I'd go ahead --
TCH, 07:55:23 06/12/03 Thu
[> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Just you'n me, huh? We must remember to give ourselves
big pats on the back.... -- Marie, 09:04:30 06/12/03 Thu
...when we reach the end of S7, heh!
M
[> Preserving this thread...
-- Masq, 12:13:23 06/10/03 Tue
[> [> Also preserving
. . . -- d'Herblay, 20:58:44 06/10/03 Tue
[> Come on! -- Tchaikovsky,
09:06:03 06/11/03 Wed
Anyone who's actually read my attempt (to whom, apologies) know
it's not a hard act to follow. Whether you're scared of 'The Yoko
Factor' or refusing to write a cross-over, don't worry. The getting-in
of the titles is the excuse for the fun! And there's a really
juicy Oz-Willow scene just waiting to be written.
TCH
Current board
| More June 2003