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Anya-licious -- Nino, 11:28:54 06/04/03 Wed

Well, as I read a lot of people's complaints on different boards about season 7 one of the biggest ones was that our core characters got lost in the shuffle...buried underneath the potentials and Captain Peroxide. And yet I can't help but think that the characters not only had great moments in season 7, but also went to realistic places in terms of characterization...sure Willow wasn't her old self, but would we expect her to be after the events of season 6? In "Lessons" Giles said something to the affect of: People don't change. As much as we may appear to be different, we are still basically the same at heart. I think we really saw that in season 7 (although I think it is the consensus that the middle of the season was very uneven...my problematic area was 11-16). It took awhile for Giles' point to come full circle, but I believe it happened....da well, I have gotten completely off the topic of Anya, which is what I started out with in mind...

Many people complained that Anya a)Did not get enough screen time and b)Was not used well when she was on screen. This thought made me sad, as Anya rocks my entire existence, so I made a list of my top 5 favorite Anya moments, and lo and behold! Three...count em three...were in season 7...this cheered me up, because although season 7 was flawed, it didn't disappoint totally....tell me if you agree....

#5.) "Hell's Bells"

"DEMON: Yeah, it was easy. Look at that, you're crying. Oh, I like that.
(Anya wipes at her face with her hands.)
ANYA: (whispers) Stop it.
DEMON: Oh, cry, Anyanka, cry. I love to see you cry. And now, I'd love to see you scream."

The look on Anya's face when she believes she has lost Xander because of her past life...regret, confusion...priceless, especially for someone who so often was used as just comic relief.

#4.) "Empty Places"
"So that doesn't make you better then us...it makes you luckier, then us."

Wow. Anya-of-old, revisited. Again, Anya comes through to say what we are all thinking, but no one has the balls to say...this whole monologue is amazing. I believe that it is her comment that finalizes what they are all thinking...Buffy has got to go. "You really do think you're better then us." Isn't that what Buffy has been struggling with all season, and arguably the whole series? So powerful, and delivered with just the right amount of anomosity and frustration.

#3) "End of Days"
"...and yet here's the thing. When it's something that really matters they fight...they never quit...so I guess I'll keep fighting too."

How beautiful is this scene with Andrew? What amazing chemistry these two have. With this sad little speech, Anya shows that she finally understands what it means to be human...to fight. She knows she'll probably die (which in my eyes makes her death much more noble) but she stays...that's my girl, always doing the crazy thing.

#2.) "Selfless"
"My whole life I've just clung to whatever came along"

The whole ep was amazing...arguably the best of the season. The final scene with Xander...man alive, this girl can make me cry...often!

#1.)"The Body"
"ANYA: (crying) I don't understand how this all happens. How we go through this. I mean, I knew her, and then she's, there's just a body, and I don't understand why she just can't get back in it and not be dead anymore. It's stupid. It's mortal and stupid. And, and Xander's crying and not talking, and, and I was having fruit punch, and I thought, well, Joyce will never have any more fruit punch ever, and she'll never have eggs, or yawn or brush her hair, not ever, and no one will explain to me why."

For obvious reasons, the best Anya moment. Probably makes my top 5 "Buffy" moments list. I mean honestly...who didn't cry? This is when I fell in love with Anya, and what she represented...the fact that we were ALL asking these questions when Joyce died, or our mothers or friends or lovers died...no one understands how to be human, how to survive it, and yet only Anya will give these insecurities a voice.

So that's it...sorry so long...but I just wanted to remind all the naysayers that Anya DID shine in season 7...even if she wasn't in the spotlight all that much.


[> Re: Anya-licious -- shambleau, 11:47:30 06/04/03 Wed

With ya on the Anya love. I'd go with Seasons 5 and 6 as when she got the most sustained development and Selfless as the culmination of that. Afterwards, she was in a holding pattern. Marti lamented that she got lost in the shuffle this season, with Joss chiming in that he'd planned to do more with Dawn than was actually done. This indicates to me one of the weaknesses of a season-long arc. Once the writers realized that they had to make the SITs more than faceless red-shirts, they were forced along the path of fleshing them out (which I think they were more successful at than most do)and had to jettison featuring the scoobies as much as they wanted to.


[> [> Re: Anya-licious -- Nino, 14:08:53 06/04/03 Wed

Yeah, i agree....I think it was especially saddening that Dawn was not more prominent...what we saw of her this season was awesome...She kicked ass in "Lessons," "Potential," "CWDP," and "Empty Places." It is definitly unfortunate that they didn't play the Buffy/Dawn tension after "CWDP." I think that the lack of follow up on Joyce's apparation was a massive let-down, and extremely sloppy. This disappointment would be echoed when follow-up's to Beljoxa's Eye, Amy-Gone-Evil, and the ramafications of the First's appearances were forgotten.

Again...I believe most of the characters had great moments in season 7, but the in-between was sloppy.


[> [> [> Re: Anya-licious -- Eryn, 14:27:21 06/04/03 Wed

I have to agree with your analysis about Anya in S7 and before. She perhaps didn't get a lot of screen time this year, but what she had was gold.

When I first started watching "Buffy" I immediately and stupidly dismissed Anya as the blonde-bimbo stereotype, and it took me several episodes to understand how wrong I was. Now she is, along with Giles, my favourite character, and reminds me of the kind of role Jean Harlow or Carole Lombard might have played: A classic character, right out of screwball comedy, but with great dramatic potential too.

Eryn


[> [> [> [> Re: Anya-licious -- BMF, 21:21:22 06/04/03 Wed

I, too, was a big Anya fan. As silly as she could be, and she made for some wonderful comic relief, it was her understanding of humanity that made her a great character. Her experiences, straddling the human and the superhuman, made her the ideal mouthpiece for great insights into what it means to be human
Moreover, she made an interesting foil to Buffy, in the sense that she loved her powers and lost them. Anya, in my view, was intended to show (to a degree) what life would be like for Buffy if she was somehow able to divest herself of being a Slayer. It wouldn't have been any better.


[> Complaint about SMG and Season 7 (<-Spoilers up to) -- RadiusRS, 14:27:13 06/04/03 Wed

I love this season of Buffy. I don't think it was the best season of the show but consistent in terms of quality, performance, and emotional payoff. But having read many articles online about the end of the show and how it affected the cast and crew, I've gotta wonder if some of the weaknesses of the season were because of SMG herself. Not that I don't like her acting, I think it's excellent, and her snort after she Killed Caleb was hysterical and summed up her whole approach to the character: serious, then goofy goofy and funny to undercut the drama. But I've heard from people who have worked on Buffy, talked to her in public, and attended her at bookstores and restraunts that she is not the nicest person in the world. After AH and NB's comments that they found out their jobs would be gone in a few months from Entertainmently Weekly rather than from Sarah and/or Mutant Enemy, and Sarah's own comments in that EW article about spending a great part of the run somewhat alienated from the rest of the cast, and Joss' comments about how that bled over into the characterizations and storylines on the show. James Marsters always talked about her in a very understanding way and SMG championed MT as Dawn, so even in Season 5 the Producers were trying to give Buffy a positive and a negative relationship and seeing how that would affect the scoobies. Spike's story played out, but Dawn, Giles, Xander, and Anya all got short shrift this season in the storytelling department, Xander and Giles more than anyone since at least Anya and Dawn got stand-alones this year. What can we really say about Xander this year other than "After he saved the world, he proceeded to rebuild the Summers home a lot and lost an eye AND Anya (get it?)"? Or about Giles than "He lost his charm"? At their expense, Sarah got to play both the Hero and the Villain of the season, getting double the screentime and all the best lines after Andrew. I might have been alright with it except for the fact that the connection was only vaguely explained (by Beljoxa's Eye when it said that Buffy had caused the vulnerability in the Slayer line). And while I loved all her scenes as Buffy and all her scenes as the First, I might have preferred a few more dead characters from the run of the show resurfacing and more Scooby time. All in all, I thought the run and the last season of the show were great, but missed being excellent because of the above mentioned info. What do you folks thinks?


[> [> Totally -- Nino, 15:15:55 06/04/03 Wed

I completely agree...there was no excuse for not bringing back more dead people to cause tension amongst the Scoobs...where was Jenny Calender to put doubts in Giles' head as to whether Buffy could lead or make clear decisions about Spike? ( This would have been a great prologue to Giles' betrayl) Where was Hallie to provoke Anya into feeling ostracized from the gang? (This would have been a great prologue to Anya's speech in "Empty Places") I mean Andrew gets uber- visits from the First, and people who have the most influence with Buffy get none?

And like I said, it was inexcuseable to not capitalize on Joyce's visit to Dawn. Also, it was ridiculous enough that Willow would go to the Wicca group we saw in one episode years ago for help in "TKIM" but to not have Amy been the First or at least ALLIGNED with the First seems just plain stupid...Moreover, why didn't Warren torment Willow? I mean, we know Amber didn't want to come back, but Adam was in more then a couple eps, why not use him properly?

Hopefully not sounding repetitive, but it seems Joss and Co. ignored all of the psychological tension that was at their disposable by having the First as the big bad...not only would this have helped the plot make more sense, it would have made the First much more interesting.

Kudos for the great Nikki Wood, Mayor, and Cassie appearances tho...more like them would have made a good season great.


[> [> I think you're reading too much into this -- Sophist, 16:54:15 06/04/03 Wed

Your argument seems to me to cut the opposite way. If SMG truly was a "queen biotch" (to quote Dawn), that seems like a good excuse for Joss to reduce her role rather than increase it.

The other problem is that there is a much simpler explanation for the lack of screen time by the SG: the need for the Potentials to fill out the storyline. Virtually everyone has commented on this at some point during S7. When there is such an obvious explanation, I'd be reluctant to draw conclusions about personalities, especially since we know absolutely nothing about these people and are dependent on gossip and occasional comments that may not be fair.


[> [> [> Hmmm I think it's a combo of things -- s'kat, 22:53:17 06/04/03 Wed

This is actually more in response to RadiusRus, put it here, because I agreed with what Sophist said above.

hile I agree RadiusRUS in the sense that I too felt the character of Buffy at times overwhelmed the show this season, her aloofness, the potentials, often to the misplacement of the other characters - I don't blame SMG for that, I see that as a writing decision. I think Joss Whedon decided to make this season about the struggle of being the "selfinvolved ditzy cheerleader who saves the world " - taken from Joss's recent interview with TV Guide, not my words - his. He contrasted Buffy with Cordelia on Angel. Showing two sides of the spectrum. How two selfinvolved heroic cheerleader types can go different routes. I give Whedon kudos for doing this...not an easy task. Most people put this character in the damsel category, Whedon decided to twist that around and make her the hero and villain. And those two stories which he's been telling on both shows simulataneously finally came to a closure for Whedon as a writer. Whedon was done, with Chosen for Buffy and Home for Cordelia. The fans may not be done with the characters - but hey, always leave them wanting more. Also the fans may not like the way Whedon did it - but hey, it's his story not ours, in his head. We just get to watch and play with it. ;-)

Something people seem to forget about these shows - Joss Whedon runs them. He plots them out. He creates the characters. He is the chess master. The actors are his chess pieces. At the beginning of Season 7, Joss Whedon sat down and told SMG that he was done, but that did not mean the show couldn't continue without him. (We all knew that - Fox own Btvs, not Joss. Fox and Kuzuis. If SMG agreed to continue for a truckload of money or whatever reason - they could hire another head writer and continue the show without Whedon. SMG knew that. ) Joss told Sara this was his last year. He told his writers the same thing. He said that Fox could continue without him. But he was finished with btvs. He'd told the story he wanted to tell and was burnt out on it. Time to stop. This is what he says in countless interviews.

But Joss leaving did not end it. SMG leaving did. And SMG probably decided to stop partly because Joss Whedon was not going to write or story board or have any role in her characters journey. When your creator loses interest in your character - it's time for you to move on. Wise decision Sarah. I am personally thanking her - for knowing when to move on and not hanging onto the role after the creator leaves it.

Was she a little aloof? Yep. But always professional and never mean. I've a friend who knows people on the set and they said, SMG had a rep for being a pro. What that means is - she did not delay production, did not cost crew members their jobs, she did take after take without complaint, and she put forth her best. James Marsters has said nothing but good things about her and makes a point of praising her performance, professionalism and friendliness in most of the interviews he gives. He doesn't have to do that. Most actors refrain from discussing other actors.
ASH similarily praises her as a pro. So does NB who states that he learned the most as an actor from SMG, JM and ASH
and thanks them for being his teachers. This is evidence
that she did a good job.

I think what we saw on Btvs this year was what the writers wrote and directed and edited. If you don't like it? Place the blame where it belongs - the writers - not the actors, unless of course you didn't like a performance, ie such as the way JM lifts his eyebrow or SMG pouts. ;-)

Personally I think the concentration on Andrew, the overcrowding of the cast with the SIT, Wood, and the
emphasis on Buffy as aloof slayer to the exclusion of Anya, Xander, Willow, Giles and Dawn was a weakness in the season.
The only arcs I felt were fully realized and strong this season were Andrew's and Spike's. And I think Andrew's was stronger than even Spike's. For some reason that completely escapes me the writers became obsessed with Andrew. I wish they'd spent half the attention they did on Andrew on Willow and/or Anya's arcs. Andrew, a recurring character, not only got an episode devoted to him (this has only happened one other time in BTvs history with Superstar and at least we'd known Jonathan for three years, also it was the only episode Jonathan was in that season), he got more screen time with the other regular characters than the regulars got with each other. There was a point mid-season that I wondered if the show was the Andrew show. He's even being touted for a best supporting actor emmy on TV guide.
Sigh. This is not Tom Lenk's fault. The writers got obsessed with Andrew, they thought he was funny. I thought it was self-indulgent but hey to each their own. And it's not my story. To their credit? They did it well. It's not their fault I didn't like Andrew.

Just my ten cents.
sk


[> [> [> [> If that was Whedon's intent he messed it up - - KdS, 03:41:08 06/05/03 Thu

I must admit I never thought that Buffy and Cordelia were being contrasted this year. If that was the intent, then it would have been more effective if Cordelia had actually been corrupted in an organic way, rather than just possessed by the Big Bad.


[> [> [> [> [> Re: If that was Whedon's intent he messed it up -- s'kat, 08:11:10 06/05/03 Thu

must admit I never thought that Buffy and Cordelia were being contrasted this year. If that was the intent, then it would have been more effective if Cordelia had actually been corrupted in an organic way, rather than just possessed by the Big Bad.

From the rumors I've heard and the Succubus interview with minear and Fury, I have the impression that that was Whedon's intent - to have her get messed up in a more organic way via having all this power. Unfortunately for ME, Charisma got pregnant and they had to change the whole thing after they'd plotted it out. Jasmine was dreamt up much later. The original plan was to have Angel fight Cordelia and Connor would kill her, apparently. But when Charisma got pregnant they couldn't go there - since it would be lame to have Angel fight the Big Bad Pregnant Lady.
At least one case where the actors real life issues interfer with the plot.

I do agree. I think the Cordelia plot was mishandled and incredibly confusing from Birthday - Home. While she may
not have been a favorite of mine, at least her character and actions made sense and moved me prior to Birthday.
I sort of lost her after that. From the recent interview with Carpenter in Femme Fatal magazine (posted on Angel Soul board), I get the feeling the actress may felt the same way.


[> [> [> [> [> [> Do you have a URL for the CC interview? -- Just George, 09:31:32 06/05/03 Thu



[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Here it is -- s'kat, 15:21:24 06/05/03 Thu

Here's the url.

http://www.voy.com/14810/2/132977359.html

This in the Angel Soul's Board voy archives.

I'd repost it here, but I think the poster transcribed it themselves.

sk


[> [> [> [> [> [> Actors and writers and hares, oh my! -- Radius, 00:02:48 06/06/03 Fri

must admit I never thought that Buffy and Cordelia were being contrasted this year. If that was the intent, then it would have been more effective if Cordelia had actually been corrupted in an organic way, rather than just possessed by the Big Bad.

From the rumors I've heard and the Succubus interview with minear and Fury, I have the impression that that was Whedon's intent - to have her get messed up in a more organic way via having all this power. Unfortunately for ME, Charisma got pregnant and they had to change the whole thing after they'd plotted it out. Jasmine was dreamt up much later. The original plan was to have Angel fight Cordelia and Connor would kill her, apparently. But when Charisma got pregnant they couldn't go there - since it would be lame to have Angel fight the Big Bad Pregnant Lady.
At least one case where the actors real life issues interfer with the plot.


I agree with and am interested by all you said, but I have to take exception with the very last line. One of the themes of this thread is that an Actor's personality has nothing to do with the role they're playing. Being an actor and a writer in L.A., I have to strongly disagree with this point. It is an actors personality and uniqueness that DO get people jobs. Casting directors, agents, and all the other folks who are the first line in working in the entertainment industry usually see thousands of faces a week. It is the ones that stand out, that have something more than the thousands of look-alike wannabes, that eventually go on to interesting careers. Not to say that nepotism and miscasting don't occur, they do, but it is the imaginative and creative actor who does something different and unique that will get the job (The guy who plays Ed on NBC got his big break auditioning for a role on Providence by playinga character that liked dogs like, well, a dog; this was probably a breath of fresh air from all the folks who played the character as crazy or rain-manish). Many film and TV scripts are rewritten for certain big stars and tailored to their personalities, and it's always been like that (see almost any film in the Schwarzenegger oeuvre). Actors and writers are like any other people, if their personalities or working styles mesh, then good things can happen. But if there are differences in character and opinion, a project can quickly fall apart. One of the most resounding truths in Hollywood (if there are any) is William Goldman's edict "Nobody Knows Anything" from Adventures in the Screen Trade (1982). Many times, a writer will write a character, but a committee of people including producers, directors, studio heads, and even the marketing department will have different takes on that character. Many Casting Directors only have a vague idea but a keen instinct as to what they want from an actor in a specific role, and most often don't know exactly what they're looking for until they see an actordo something interesting with the role after being unmoved by hundreds of actors. Many times, this person has all or some of the qualities that the comittee is looking for, and therefore gets the role. Those with a stronger resume are often considered the best picks as no one has to worry about their talent or professionalism. So the end result ends up being a creation of the character as written and the actor as chosen by TPTB, and becomes something that neither the writer nor the actor could have predicted as the character takes on a life of its. If you don't think a specific actor's personality affects the cast, crew, and storylines of a project, there are hundreds of examples in recent years (i.e. Kim Delaney on CSI Miami, Mike Myers vs. Brian Grazer & Ron Howard over Sprockets, David Caruso on NYPD Blue, Puck in The Real World: SF, Sean Connery in LXG, Shannen Doherty on 90210, etc). Also, the way "professional" is used in those interviews is industry-speak for "the person is difficult but at least they never waste anyone's time". All in all, I see Buffy as clearly an ensemble show while Sarah always saw herself as the star (which of the Core Four she WAS the cataylst for everyone else to get involved in the Good Fight), and I'm upset that that fact caused some of the other fine actors on the show to get shortchanged after so many dedicated years on this show (SMG and AH were in all 144, NB was in 143 and Giles in 121).

By the way, I was more bothered that certain plot points that were relevant to the mysteries of this season were left unanswered, than the fact that there was so much ambiguity. For example, I think Buffy's connection to the vulnerability in the Slayer Line should have been answered before Sunnydale went bye-bye, or at least explored further. I like the fact that many things, like an explanation of Anya's hare-o- phobia, are still unknown and always will be.


[> [> [> [> To me it seemed to be one season in search of a spin-off -- Dandy, 04:02:15 06/05/03 Thu



[> [> [> [> [> Re: To me it seemed to be one season in search of a spin-off (not a bad thing) -- BMF, 08:38:44 06/05/03 Thu

In the sense that it led to extraordinary plot confusion, OK, it was bad - especially concerning Faith. (Hopefully she isn't completely done for, as I can only begin to imagine what kind of life she would have as a now relatively "normal" person.) But I tried to look at the big picture throughout the season, and liked the ways in which Joss and Co. set-up so many characters for the future. Let's face it, Buffy's story has run its course, but the concept behind it, the Buffyverse, still has enormous room for development. While Buffy began as a character study of sorts, it ended as a mythology. I just hope that it becomes as fully realized and classic a mythos as those of Tolkien and Lovecraft. It's on its way there, but for a mythos to be great it must be fleshed out, and that will hopefully be seen in the directions Joss heads on Angel, in print (Fray, etc.), and in any future spin-offs.


[> [> [> [> [> [> Yes I hope they get to do more also, plot zigzags was what I was referring to. -- Dandy, 11:49:33 06/05/03 Thu



[> [> [> I don't think you're reading enough into it - - RadiusRS, 22:40:07 06/05/03 Thu

My info comes straight from friends, roommates, and co-workers who were actually there, which I think qualifies it as more than just gossip or hearsay. My roommate who worked at Borders and watched Buffy pretty much stopped watching because she had been rude to him on many occasions. I'm sure there are good stories about her but her choice of husband (who was quoted on E a few months back as saying that breaking into the business wasn't hard [I guess it wouldn't be if you already had lifelong connections] and, in a separate piece, ranting about how much Sarah had been mistreated on her show and "how much those people owed her"). I think both articles are in the Watch with Kristen archives.

Now as to your argument of Joss reducing her role, I don't think that would have been an option. A little background first:

During her run on All My Children, Sarah had a notoriously icy relationship with Susan Lucci. The fact that a teenager could take on an industry veteran like Lucci on, and "beat" her (getting an Emmy years before Lucci did) shows SMGs tenacity and mastery of the art of being a bitch. As a matter of fact, she had already been cast as Cordelia (from the Season 1 DVDs) when they had to replace Buffy and she was a shoo-in due to her martial arts proficiency and Shiny Emmy.

In one of his last interviews about Buffy, (which I remember reading on Whedonesque.com so search their archives for a URL if you're interested) Joss mentions how many storylines sometimes reflected real situations among the cast, in a sort of "the art and the artist mutually pulling each other in new directions" kind of way. He also gave props to Sarah saying he couldn't have done the show without her, and that she was more a collaborator than an employee; as a matter of fact, it was SMG who championed MT for Dawn and introduced her to Joss. I agree with Joss, the show wouldn't have been the same with a different actress, and SMGs skills and performance definitely fueled the show. I also think that he refers to the fact that her clout (Emmy again) and his (Oscar nomination) were equally instrumental in getting a studio to take a risk on the show and a network to take the risk to air it, knowing that it had the potential to be extremely controversial and with a premise and style that were untested in TV. Since SMG was such an essential part of the formula, Joss had to find a way to work her out of the equation without destroying the format and Universe he had already created all these rules for (In "The Harvest" DVD commentary, he points out how important rules are in horror films and how the writers are always aware of this). The best way he and ME figured was the Potentials storyline by going back to the beginning, not just of the series but to the movie as well. They needed to show how a young american girl's could be reflected in the plight of all women. And they had to bring Buffy to a place no other Slayer had been before: a Teacher of other Slayers. The Potentials were supposed to remind Buffy of what it was like to be a normal girl whose whole life gets changed when a tweedy guy suddenly drops a bombshell on her. It also allowed Buffy to break the vicious cycle (TV contract) that allows her to remain within the Buffyverse, but also free to go and do her own thing. I don't think Buffy could have gone through those changes as a character if she hadn't had to relive her youth and Calling (which in series Canon has only been briefly seen in flashback and alluded to in Buffy's Sanitarium Stay) this season through the potentials. It was also the next level after Buffy's parenting of Dawn (first a brat, then a pre-school1 [by the way I looooove Dawnie]). So not only was the whole storyline Buffycentric, she also got to play the villain (perhaps an attempt by Joss to appease her?), perhaps a move to save money since there were all the new recurring cast members. I don't think that's any reason to avoid Scooby characterization. I am this close to devastated that I probably won't be seeing Xander in the Buffyverse for a looooong time seeing as Joss no-noed him on Angel even though AH and ASH have publicly expressed the real possibilities of them guesting next season. I am unsatisfied at how little resolution and development his character arc had this season and feel a great actor (who was Joss' stand-in for crying out loud) was kinda cheated ("OK, so we'll let you save the world ONCE...OK make that TWICE and you WILL be satisfied."). I'm also saddened by the lack of focus on Dawn and Giles, two more of my favs, and hope that all three of these folks get their due in a future Whedonverse series.

All in all, the series successfully completed it's objective, which was to change the TV world with strong young female characters, and if it took a bitch to do it, well, Gloria Steinem never won any popularity concepts but look at all she helped accomplish. I just wish the star hadn't eclipsed the show (which if you really get down to it probably means that this was the PERFECT time to end the show since the star had grown too big (in her eyes) for it.


[> [> [> [> Re: I don't think you're reading enough into it -- curious, 09:10:21 06/06/03 Fri

I just wish the star hadn't eclipsed the show (which if you really get down to it probably means that this was the PERFECT time to end the show since the star had grown too big (in her eyes) for it.

Yup. I think there was a lot of evidence that SMG was tired of the role and had gotten more and more distant from the rest of the cast. A couple of interviews with JW sounded like he acknowledged the interpersonal problems but accepted them. He seemed to understand that what made SMG a "star" also made her a less than nice person to work with. I wonder if a man with similar talents and success would be considered a "bitch" though. Successful, talented women have a tough time in our culture. I think BtVS probably captured a fair amount of SMG's personality - the isolation of being "special", talented, charismatic and needing to keep people at arm's length so you don't get sucked dry. Joss seemed to understand that about her. OTH, it must have been hard for her fellow actors. I understand that SMG was the center of the show but I watched BtVS for the other characters. Oh well, I'm not planning to see Scoobie Doo 2, 3 or 4.

In the Season 6 DVD commentary, the director of "Normal Again" jokes that SMG would say things like "You're not the boss of me." and they said they thought she was kidding but..... JM also said in some interview that the writers did use the personalities and experiences of the actors and writers to such an extent that he sometimes wished they didn't know so much about him.

Totally agree about the other characters not getting enough storylines fulfilled. They sort of dropped everyone but Buffy and her relationship with Spike. I liked the Spike development but would have liked more independent interaction of all the other characters. It almost looked like Spike and Xander were going to bond in "Him" but that was dropped - like a lot of potential story lines this season. There seemed to be a big shift in the story when the Potentials showed up. Things got fuzzy and very little from the first half of the season really paid off. Dawn's growth and keyness, Xander, Anya, what was up with Giles, etc., etc.


[> [> [> [> Where we disagree is -- Sophist, 09:27:39 06/06/03 Fri

in how much influence you think SMG had on JW. I think she had very little in terms of storyline. You think she had a lot.

I don't doubt that actors' personalities and ideas interact with the writers' outlines and concepts. That's not the same thing at all as controlling the story. I have never seen anything to suggest that JW had anything less than total control over the story. It was his and he told it.

My info comes straight from friends, roommates, and co-workers who were actually there, which I think qualifies it as more than just gossip or hearsay.

I'd say this is the very definition of gossip or hearsay.

My roommate who worked at Borders and watched Buffy pretty much stopped watching because she had been rude to him on many occasions.

That's unfortunate, but it doesn't tell me much about how she interacted with her co-workers on the set.

The fact that a teenager could take on an industry veteran like Lucci on, and "beat" her (getting an Emmy years before Lucci did) shows SMGs tenacity and mastery of the art of being a bitch.

I don't see the point here. What is the connection between being a bitch (assuming SMG was one) and getting an Emmy? I really don't get the point about getting one "before" Susan Lucci. The stories of Lucci's failures to get an Emmy are legion; she was nominated what, a dozen times?, before she got one. I can't see how SMG was to blame for that or in any way affected that.

So not only was the whole storyline Buffycentric, she also got to play the villain

I think the whole series was Buffycentric. I do value the supporting characters, Willow most of all. But it's Buffy's journey. As manwitch would say, "we are Buffy". It's Buffy with whom we're supposed to identify. She's the hero; her journey is our journey. Making her the center of the show was the whole point.

I am unsatisfied at how little resolution and development his character arc had this season and feel a great actor (who was Joss' stand-in for crying out loud) was kinda cheated ("OK, so we'll let you save the world ONCE...OK make that TWICE and you WILL be satisfied.").

I don't share your evaluation of NB's acting talent. Even if I did, I think you're overlooking some key points. First, the issue is not whether you (or anyone) wants to see Xander. The issue is whether his character fits the storyline Joss has planned for AtS next season. Second, I don't know what the right number is for the times Xander gets to save the world. Is it one or 6? And why Xander as opposed to Dawn or Anya or Giles or Willow?

As a general comment, my personal view is that it's a mistake to worry too much about the personality of actors or other performers (e.g. athletes). They are not heros or role models. We value their performance, that's all. If they do that well, the rest is irrelevant.


[> [> [> [> [> Re: Where we disagree is -- curious, 10:09:47 06/06/03 Fri

I don't doubt that actors' personalities and ideas interact with the writers' outlines and concepts. That's not the same thing at all as controlling the story. I have never seen anything to suggest that JW had anything less than total control over the story. It was his and he told it.

Totally agree.

I think the whole series was Buffycentric. I do value the supporting characters, Willow most of all. But it's Buffy's journey. As manwitch would say, "we are Buffy". It's Buffy with whom we're supposed to identify. She's the hero; her journey is our journey. Making her the center of the show was the whole point.

Buffy and SMG were the center of the show and was designed so that the audience IS Buffy. But that is also why we are, in a way, more involved and interested in the other characters. That is also why people who didn't see enough of or like the development of the character they most identified with will always be disappointed.

I don't think it's fair to "blame" SMG for the way other characters were neglected (the writers admitted this happened with Dawn and Anya in particular), but some of the emotional resonanance was off - possibly because SMG and JW were ready to move on.


[> [> [> [> [> Some points and some responses -- RadiusRS, 15:22:46 06/06/03 Fri

>in how much influence you think SMG had on JW. I think she had very little in terms of storyline. You think she had a lot.

I don't doubt that actors' personalities and ideas interact with the writers' outlines and concepts. That's not the same thing at all as controlling the story. I have never seen anything to suggest that JW had anything less than total control over the story. It was his and he told it.

For anyone to have total control of anything is laughable. In the recent interview where he acknowledged Sarah's influence on the role (you can find the link on Whedonesque.com), Joss mentioned how a lot of storylines he had to give up on because of real world needs and how that spawned other ideas. The clearest examples of this is Oz's departure, which JW said he hadn't foreseen and which forced him to take another spin at Willow after having a huge arc planned for Oz. This new spin led to Willow acknowledging her gayness so I'd say here's one time when an actor MAJORLY affected a storyline, or ASH wanting to spend more time with his family affecting Giles. Tom Lenk is another excellent example: here's a guy who grew into having his own stand alone episode after less than two years on the show because his chemistry, talent, and yes personality were adored by fans and creators alike. So you're telling me an actor who left and an actor who was recurring have less power to affect storylines than the star? I think I may have misrepresented my position by using the word control. In the EW interview, Sarah talks about how her most difficult moment during the show was the Season 6 where she and Spike have sex in the Bromze while the Scoobies dance below. She said it really bothered her and that she told the writers she wouldn't go there again. Seems to me she is just enough of a pro to not contest the writers too much, but when she feels a line is crossed she will definitely impress her feelings among the creators of the show. This is the kind of influence I believe she has had on the role. And Joss is not all-powerful either. He was lucky enough that his studio and network have interefered with so little of the look, feel, and content of the show. If the PTB at the WB or FOX Studios decide something, Joss can negotiate but must usually compromise. I'm saying that his is the main voice in these tales of Slayers, monsters, and Champions, but sometime he must compromise to be able to tell as much of his story as he wants to (CCs pregnancy, which lead to Gina Torres guesting as Jasmine).

>My info comes straight from friends, roommates, and co-workers who were actually there, which I think qualifies it as more than just gossip or hearsay.

I'd say this is the very definition of gossip or hearsay.

I'd say that the definition of gossip or hearsay is when only a fraction of the facts has been revealed from an unknown source. I observed certain behaviors, body language, and attitude from the people in question, which gives me a very good idea of which parts of their story are true and which might be exaggerated. Also, these are people close to me in one way or another, so I know their personalities well enough to know how they color their communications. And finally, I'm only one degree from the source of the information in all these cases, whereas most gossip is usually an unknown number of degrees from the source of the information. More than gossip, I believe that what I know about SMG qualifies as the kind of information a p.i. or a detective would receive from a witness rather than gossip (sure some falseness around the edges, but mostly truth). Besides, I'm closer to the "gossip" than most columnists. The only reason I ever included any reference to SMGs personality was to back up and support my theory of her influence over the seventh season of Buffy.

>The fact that a teenager could take on an industry veteran like Lucci on, and "beat" her (getting an Emmy years before Lucci did) shows SMGs tenacity and mastery of the art of being a bitch.

I don't see the point here. What is the connection between being a bitch (assuming SMG was one) and getting an Emmy? I really don't get the point about getting one "before" Susan Lucci. The stories of Lucci's failures to get an Emmy are legion; she was nominated what, a dozen times?, before she got one. I can't see how SMG was to blame for that or in any way affected that.

The point here is to show Sarah's show-business savvy from a very early age, and her tenacious ability to use this saavy for leverage. For those not familiar with the story, SMG and Lucci had a horrible relationship while at AMC, each accussing the other of bitch-dom and diva-dom. Sarah essentially challenged Lucci saying she would get an Emmy before Lucci did (by this point, Lucci had already been nominated abut 10 times). Lucci laughed at this teenage brat's challenge. But lo and behold Srah got her Emmy at 16 and promptly left the show after having proven her point. If anything, I admire and respect Sarah's ability to make others respect her and to get the best of industry veterans. This same tenacity scares the lower levels in Hollywood into line, and makes the higher levels wary and defensive. That's pretty cool for an actress not yet 25. But Alysson Hannigan, while she doesn't have an Emmy, has been in the industry just as long as Sarah, was in the same number of episodes, and is beloved by all with arguably just as exciting a movie career as SMG (being the only girl invited back for American Wedding means a lot in Hollywood's eyes). Maybe its just Sarah's style, and I think she has expanded the definition of what lead actors can ask for the producers, but that doesn't mean it's right that her costars got the short end of the stick.

>So not only was the whole storyline Buffycentric, she also got to play the villain

I think the whole series was Buffycentric. I do value the supporting characters, Willow most of all. But it's Buffy's journey. As manwitch would say, "we are Buffy". It's Buffy with whom we're supposed to identify. She's the hero; her journey is our journey. Making her the center of the show was the whole point.

Actually, with the end of the series, Joss STOPPED making her the center of the whole show and Buffyverse, and I thought THAT was the whole point that she SHARE her power. That's been the message from day one and what has saved Buffy and made her unlike previous Slayers: her ability to share. What has also been the message is that Buffy cannot acheive all she acheives without the steadfast support of her friends. Season 4 ACTUALLY PHYSICALLY JOINED the Core Four (how much more obvious can you get?). The show has always been about the Core, and it was when it became about Buffy that there were problems. ASH was that last one in the credits for his regular run (which in Hollywood means you're just as important as the star), and Aly had that honor for the final two seasons. We are meant to identify with ALL FOUR main characters because they are the four elements (spirit, hand, heart, and mind) of one meta character. Look how much the show was affected when only one of these characters was no longer a regular! I always found something to relate to in each of the characters during any discussion between the four of them, and find that I relate to the four of them more than I do to any other characters. If anything, Buffy acts as a sort of catalyst for others empowering themselves, which I think is consistent with Joss' vision of "a female who fights back" who inspires both women (Willow/Dawn/Potentials) AND men (Xander/Angel/Spike) into becoming more than they are. I think this catalyst theory is consistent with her role in the events of Chosen, specifically her plan to empower all Potentials. So is she necessary to the series and it's premise? Yes, I never argued that she wasn't. Is she THE main character? Absolutely not, she's only one of them (and isn't odd that all their arcs have parallels? Such as the fact that all four of them tragically lost their true loves over the last seven years) as I believe was made pretty clear throughout Season 4.

>I am unsatisfied at how little resolution and development his character arc had this season and feel a great actor (who was Joss' stand-in for crying out loud) was kinda cheated ("OK, so we'll let you save the world ONCE...OK make that TWICE and you WILL be satisfied.").

I don't share your evaluation of NB's acting talent. Even if I did, I think you're overlooking some key points. First, the issue is not whether you (or anyone) wants to see Xander. The issue is whether his character fits the storyline Joss has planned for AtS next season. Second, I don't know what the right number is for the times Xander gets to save the world. Is it one or 6? And why Xander as opposed to Dawn or Anya or Giles or Willow?

Giles and Willow and Xander were key to many previous apocalipsi being averted (think The Wish, The Zeppo, end of Season 4, end of season 5, etc.) but Xander's role was never an overt or essential one with his brave acts in The Zeppo going on completely unknown to his friends. This was an opportunity for the characters as well as the audience (who was already in on it) to give Xander the credit he deserves for being the least flashy lead (unless you're talking about his taste in hawaiin shirts). And as to Xander on Angel, uh yeah the point is EXACTLY that the fans AND the actor want him to appear on Angel. I understand Joss' position in that Xander isn't a good fit with the Angel crew and has no reasons for hanging out with either Angel or Spike, but to completely discount him from making a single appearance ata all? I for one want to see his reaction to Cordelia's state, if he takes it out on Angel, his negative attitude towards vampires even Angel and Spike, and his goofy personality in contrast with the seriousness of Angel. Are you telling me that the genius that is Joss or his band of writers can't come up with one decent episode that maybe forces Xander to seek out the help of the person he most loathes, Angel, and finds him working for an evil law firm and his ex a vegetable? It would be consistent with the way Angel and Xander have always felt about each other, and dramatic tension would be produced by Xander's grudging need for Angel's help. While I respect your dislike of NB as an actor, I still think that as a cast member who was in all the episodes but one he deserved a little more this last season than a pat on the back for last season and then an eye-patch.

As a general comment, my personal view is that it's a mistake to worry too much about the personality of actors or other performers (e.g. athletes). They are not heros or role models. We value their performance, that's all. If they do that well, the rest is irrelevant.

In a perfect world we only value their performances, but this isn't a perfect world. The fact of the matter is, athletes and entertainers ARE role models, whether they, we, or the media like it or not, and can be heros to a certain point. I certainly have looked up to many entertainers and athletes as examples of excellence in human nature, and it always saddens me when I learn that one of these people doesn't behave like a normal adult, despite the fact that their work and luck has provided them with so many luxuries that they should be thankful for and humble about. Are you telling me that if a child molester or murderer were a good enough actor we should respect him for his work and that the real consequences of his actions should be irrelevant? Actors are people too, people. And their job has the same expectations and pressures than any other job. Unless they are just starting out and haven't made careers for themselves yet, I believe actors should be scrutinized as much as politicians, CEOs, suspects, or royalty is in this country and the rest of the world. I know that the best performances I see are when people I know (such as friends) surprise even me with their performance. I think that's the true measure of talent, and that the loss of privacy is the necessary price for celebrity and success so that, in a way, we can continue to be amazed when this person we thought we knew so well manages to still surprise us.


[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Some points and some responses -- Sophist, 17:19:03 06/06/03 Fri

For anyone to have total control of anything is laughable

Ok, I'll concede that "total" was rhetorical overkill. I also don't doubt that Joss got ideas, etc. from the actors (as, indeed, he got ideas from his whole life). I also don't doubt that an actor leaving the show affected the storyline.

What I do believe is that the actors who stayed (whether JM or SMG or whomever) had very limited influence over the story. They may have affected details, as did Standards & Practices, but the overall story was the one Joss wanted told.

I'd say that the definition of gossip or hearsay is when only a fraction of the facts has been revealed from an unknown source.

I'm pretty familiar with the definition of hearsay. Trust me, you're talking about hearsay.

The point here is to show Sarah's show-business savvy from a very early age, and her tenacious ability to use this saavy for leverage

I still don't see what this has to do with SMG's personality. I doubt that her Emmy was related in any way to her personality, and I really doubt that she won the Emmy because of her feud with Lucci. Leaving the show after winning the Emmy may say something about her savvy (though anyone who predicted the success of BtVS in advance was smarter than I am). But none of this has to do with her behavior towards her fellow cast members.

Actually, with the end of the series, Joss STOPPED making her the center of the whole show and Buffyverse, and I thought THAT was the whole point that she SHARE her power.

Yes, but it was Buffy's journey we followed to get there. The other characters are interesting in their own right, but they also serve to reflect aspects of Buffy's journey. In the same way, Sam and Merry and Pippin were interesting, but it was Frodo's journey.

The fact of the matter is, athletes and entertainers ARE role models, whether they, we, or the media like it or not, and can be heros to a certain point.

No one's a role model for me unless I make him/her one. Michael Jordan is a role model for basketball, but not for gambling. Martin Luther King Jr. is a role model for tolerance and equal rights, but not for sexual affairs. To me, people are role models for what they do well, not for what they do poorly.

I don't accept the notion that people must be perfect or they are unfit to be in the public eye at all. I don't think those in the public eye should be subject to extra scrutiny. Every person has strengths and weaknesses. We should value the strengths. Unless the weakness directly interferes with the performance of that person's duties, I think it's irrelevant.

Those without sin can now stone me. :)


[> [> [> [> [> [> [> excellent points! -- RadiusRS, 20:13:56 06/06/03 Fri



[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Some points and some responses -- Malandanza, 10:36:44 06/07/03 Sat

"What I do believe is that the actors who stayed (whether JM or SMG or whomever) had very limited influence over the story. They may have affected details, as did Standards & Practices, but the overall story was the one Joss wanted told."

I think that SMG had less influence over her role than some of the supporting actors simply because she was the central character. If the writers had a story arc planned out (which seems doubtful for season seven, but certainly is true for previous seasons), Buffy was central to that arc. If there is one character whose actions were carefully planned and one actress whose acting was studiously choreographed, it would be Buffy/SMG.

Lesser characters, I believe, have more control over how their characters behave. The writers often radically alter the behavior of the characters as they try to settle into a defined role for them (think of Anya from Season Three, or Spike from Season Four, Dawn from Season Five or Andrew from Season Six). Eventually, they settle on a role, but during the period of finding the character, I believe the actors do have great influence over their roles. I don't think we'd have seen funny Anya had EC not made her marginally funny lines from Dopplegangland much more comic with her delivery. JM's and SMG's chemistry in Something Blue laid the groundwork for Spuffy, Dawn from the beginning of Season Four changed markedly, losing things along the way like her crush on Xander (transferred to a crush on Spike because of JM's chemistry w/MT and NB's lack of chemistry). TL's performance as Andrew playing Bond (just before he rocketed himself into unconsciousness) became his character in Season Seven -- rather than the mad little man shouting "Kill her!" to Warren.

I think some of the acting triumphs (and failures) had a significant influence on what stories the writers wanted to tell. Why else did we get a redemption story about Andrew instead of Anya, Willow, or Spike?


[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I mostly agree -- Sophist, 11:44:58 06/07/03 Sat

Which may surprise you, given our recent disagreement about JM. I do think all of these discussions, including ours on JM recently, involve questions of degree.

The way I would say it is this: the writers do take advantage of an actor's talents (or lack thereof) and may take a story in an unforeseen direction for that reason. The actors can and do try to influence their characters and sometimes succeed. Notwithstanding these facts, the writers maintain control over the story once they have decided on it. I do not believe that the actors ever succeed in subverting the writers' intentions (at least not on BtVS).

Why else did we get a redemption story about Andrew instead of Anya, Willow, or Spike?

I think this overstates it a little. I would say we did get redemption stories on all these characters. The stories just showed us different paths and different reactions, that's all.


[> [> [> [> [> [> On hearsay, daytime emmys, and crazy industries -- s'kat, 09:03:48 06/07/03 Sat

I agree with Sophist here, but wanted to expand on certain points.

1.I'd say that the definition of gossip or hearsay is when only a fraction of the facts has been revealed from an unknown source. I observed certain behaviors, body language, and attitude from the people in question, which gives me a very good idea of which parts of their story are true and which might be exaggerated. Also, these are people close to me in one way or another, so I know their personalities well enough to know how they color their communications. And finally, I'm only one degree from the source of the information in all these cases, whereas most gossip is usually an unknown number of degrees from the source of the information. More than gossip, I believe that what I know about SMG qualifies as the kind of information a p.i. or a detective would receive from a witness rather than gossip (sure some falseness around the edges, but mostly truth). Besides, I'm closer to the "gossip" than most columnists. The only reason I ever included any reference to SMGs personality was to back up and support my theory of her influence over the seventh season of Buffy.

Ah. But this is hearsay. Why? Here's a little bit on hearsay from my Barron's Legal Dictionary, for the non-lawyers lurking out there: "If for example, a witness' statment as to what he heard another person say is elicited to prove the truth of what that other person said, it is hearsay; if however, it is elicited to merely show that the words were spoken, it is not hearsay."

This is an important distinction to make. Your statement or repeating of what your friend said is being used to prove a truth about Gellar's behavior - that is hearsay. If however you were merely stating it to prove that the words were spoken? Then you saying you heard it - proves your friend said it, but proves zip about Gellar. It does however tell us a great deal about your friend and you. It's hearsay as to Gellar's actions, but not hearsay as to yours. (Hope that made sense.)

I'd be careful about using things friends and colleagues say about someone to support a negative or positive judgement on their behavior as a fact. That path leads to libel and slander suits and makes you look bad ( a lesson I've learned over time). Also your friend's negative experience with an actress in a bookstore, tells me very little about this actress, except that either your friend had a bad day, SMG had a lousy day, or they just had bad chemistry. I've had negative encounters with people in bookstores, it's part of life. We just don't get along with everyone. And sometimes we are rude. Also, there are people I've met in my life - that my friends may find rude, ill-behaved or nasty and I love them dearly and vice-versa. Our impressions of others often have VERY little to do with them and everything to do with us. Just look at how differently everyone responds to the characters on Btvs? You love the character of Xander and think NB is a great actor, while another poster hates that character and thinks NB is a lousey actor and is happy to see the last of him.
I have heard horrible things about the actress Charisma Carpenter for example - from a source that swears that he knows people who worked with her, but without having met these people, all I have is the source's word for it. And I happen to know ShowBusiness is the nastiest haven for gossip on the planet - people make their careers out there bashing other people. IT's become a bit of a joke actually.
(See PLAYER (movie) by Altman, I'll Never Eat Lunch in This Town AGain (book) by Julia Philips, Adventures in Screenwriting and Which Lie Did I tell by Goldman, Easy Riders/Road Warriors - a documentary based on the book - about film directories for examples). And then of course we have those gossip shows - Entertainment Tonight, Access Hollywood, E! News, E! The True Hollywood Story. Truth is?
It doesn't matter if the person who told you this information is your best friend and you trust them with your life - it means zip. Because it is their impression.
Even if you witnessed it yourself and told us - it means zip and proves nothing, because it is your impression. An impression that is colored by your experience. What you may consider bitchy or nasty behavior may be experienced a completely different way by someone else. That doesn't make you or your friends experience invalid, it's valid to you, but by the same token - it doesn't prove the person you are talking about is "rude" or "bitchy" all it proves is that you think they are.

God I hope that made some sense. Feeling the words catch in my gullet this morning. ;-)

The point here is to show Sarah's show-business savvy from a very early age, and her tenacious ability to use this saavy for leverage. For those not familiar with the story, SMG and Lucci had a horrible relationship while at AMC, each accussing the other of bitch-dom and diva-dom. Sarah essentially challenged Lucci saying she would get an Emmy before Lucci did (by this point, Lucci had already been nominated abut 10 times). Lucci laughed at this teenage brat's challenge. But lo and behold Srah got her Emmy at 16 and promptly left the show after having proven her point.

Ah the infamous Daytime Emmy story. I was watching AMC at the time, and it is important to note a few things here.

1. The two actresses were up for two completely different types of emmys at the time or rather in two completely different categories. Susan Lucci's competition was actually far tougher than SMG's. SMG was either up for best supporting or best younger actress - two categories that Lucci would not be nominated for. Lucci has been on the soap for more than 20 years. Lucci also was up for BEST ACTRESS against such hefty contenders as an actress who played a split personality, one who was struggling with drug addiction, etc. SMG was up for best supporting and that year had a juicier role than Lucci did. She basically played a bitch on wheels - sort of similar to the role she played in Cruel Intentions. It was over-the-top and nasty.
And her competition? Not that hefty. So no, they were NOT in competition with each other. As you'll see in point two
regarding how these things are rewarded - in the soap world, the more hammy your performance, the more over-the-top and melodramatic your scenes - the more likely you'll get acknowledged - b/c the voters only see a few scenes, not everything. So if you can include a few really emotional/cool scenes - then you're in - and if they are
more emotional and melodramatic than the competiton? Gold.

2. The Acting Daytime Emmy's, to the best of my knowledge, aren't really respected in the industry. Why? It's how they are chosen. Unlike Emmy's, Tony's, and Oscars, these awards are chosen by committees made up of people who either don't work in the same field or don't even watch the shows. At the time, SMG got her emmy - the process was, if I remember correctly, the actors and shows nominated submit a video tape of what they consider their best scenes that year. Then a group of people picked randomly from the industry meet in a room and watch the videos. Best Actress is NOT the decision of all the actors in daytime, it is the decision of this small group of people, many of whom may never have seen the soap in question. So whomever wins the EMMY is NOT winning it based on their overall performance so much as for the impressions this group of people had of a few performances taken out of context. The person who wins was probably the person who sent in the best tape.
This is the reason that many people, myself included, look at the Daytime Emmy's as a bit of a joke or popularity contest. Now I think they revamped this process a while back, so it may be different now, but that's what it was like when Gellar won.

Most of the actors who've won Daytime Emmy's - have mentioned how they didn't help them at all in the industry at large. Scott Bryce who played Craig in As The World Turns for years - mentioned how he tried to use the emmy to get jobs and people laughed at him. Meg Ryan - who played Betsy opposite Bryce, seldom mentions her years on the soaps. Same with Anne Hech, Tommy Lee Jones, and Demi Moore.

So I honestly doubt Gellar's emmy meant much to the network or Whedon.

3. If you think Primetime is bad for gossip, you should check out the Daytime scene. The Daytime Soap Opera Mags are horrendous. And fans? Let's just say that Trekkies, Btvs fans are tame in comparison. Soaps are known for changing entire storylines to fit what some fan focus group wants. The gossip is horrible. So I'd take with a grain of salt anything coming out of that arena.

Not sure if that adds anything or not. SMG is not a favorite of mine. I really despised her as Kendall. But she has grown on me over the years. A talented actress. Not great. But talented and she did a decent job as Buffy.
Did she have an effect on the role and the show? Yes. Whedon admits there wouldn't have been one without her, something I agree with. Did she make the show more Buffy centric? Doubtful. I remember reading a few skirmishs the producers/creators had with Gellar and she lost. The first was over the delay of Earshot, Gellar stated in interviews she believed they shouldn't have pulled it. They came down on her. The second was when Gellar argued with their decision to move over to UPN, stating she'd never leave WB.
They shut her up again. As Goldman states in both books - the star only has as much weight as the director/producer
gives them. From what I've read of Whedon? He didn't give Gellar that much weight - heck he wasn't even available to her for the last two years. Outside of Lessons she barely saw him.


[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Rants and raves -- RadiusRS, 19:42:39 06/07/03 Sat

I don't know why I continue to post on this but here are a few responses:

On the hearsay:

I am a Mexican actor and a writer living in L.A. who has been lucky enough to have lived in Mexico, Paris, and the U.S. I mention that because I believe the more diverse one's life and experiences, the more well-rounded a person (a point brought up by the pro-Affirmative Action side in the current U. of M. controversy). I also believe this varied experience has allowed me to improve my understanding of human nature in general having been born in Mexico, grown up in the U.S., returned to Mexico, lived in Europe, and now working in the U.S. It has also humbled me to the point of trying to find out as much information possible about a person or thing and trying to see as many perspectives about it/them before coming to any sort of conclusion.

I applaud your legal definition of hearsay and accept that the information I have found on SMG can be considered hearsay. I do take issue with your assertion that "It doesn't matter if the person who told you this information is your best friend and you trust them with your life - it means zip. Because it is their impression.
Even if you witnessed it yourself and told us - it means zip and proves nothing, because it is your impression. An impression that is colored by your experience. What you may consider bitchy or nasty behavior may be experienced a completely different way by someone else. That doesn't make you or your friends experience invalid, it's valid to you, but by the same token - it doesn't prove the person you are talking about is "rude" or "bitchy" all it proves is that you think they are."
First off, you don't know me well enough to say to the degree with which my experience colors my impressions. I've been an actor my whole life and a writer for half of them and am damn good at both. I have struggled for years to refine my perception of people and their behaviors and know that this will be an ongoing learning experience, but I pride myself on my current perceptiveness, which always includes a degree of skepticism and one of optimism. I also didn't want to believe some of the things I heard about SMG and dismissed it as gossip until I met people who had actually had expereiences with her. Note I said "people" not person. The first was a friend who was dissed very publicly by her at a restaurant; I can chalk this one up to a bad day or my friends perception. The second was a coworker who is an actor and worked on the Season 3 episode "Anne"; when we started discussing Buffy, he mentioned how difficult she had been on set and how she took it out on some member of the crew; I could also chalk this one up to a bad day. The third was my friend and roommate, who worked at Borders and attended her many many times in the time he worked at Borders; this one I can't chalk up to a bad day as it seems unlikely that she would have had a bad day every single time she visited the store and my roommate waited on her, and also the days his coworkers waited on her (she once made a girl cry but since it didn't happen to my roommate but someone he knew, I can't really qualify how much was SMG and how much was the coworkers own personality). Two times is a coincidence, three is a pattern, and this was more than one occassion. The probability that all the people I know that have interacted with her and have all had negative experiences could be a statistical anomaly. Factor into that the odds that she was in a bad mood on all the occassions she met my friends and coworkers (let's say a conservative 6 different occassions?), and the probability that she is nice person drops drastically. So in the end, my whole argument is that, according to the personal information that I have received from three completely different people with different ages, backgrounds, and educations (one of them a working actor, another a student actor, and another a lifelong industry pro) all had a common denominator in their experiences with SMG: unpleasantness. Now why do I keep pushing this point? Because I see everyone criticizing the writers, the network, and almost everyone else for the woes of the show this season, and no one seems to be willing to point the finger at all in the direction af the actress who didn't even tell her two main costars her decision to quit, they had to read about it in Entertainment Weekly. Whenever you or Sophist post something about philosophy or feminism, I defer to you because I give you the benefit of the doubt that you know what you are talking about. You both include examples and quotes to support your arguments, and you have obviously spent many many years learning and refining your knowledge about what you post. I feel that when it comes to personalities and actors and Hollywood, it is much harder to state something substantial about all that than it is about the role of women in society or the philosopy in an episode of our favorite TV show. But I have spent my life acting, writing, and working and living in the industry, so I think that qualifies me as knowing what I'm talking about (to a degree) and undeserving of such quick dismissal. And I don't only base my perception on these experiences but also take into account countless articles, interviews, and "facts" (SMG was originally cast as Cordelia, she has not contributed at all to any DVD releases, she missed the Academy of Television Arts and Sciences Buffy tribute event, she wasn't at the wrap party, etc.) when coming to my conclusions.

(Sorry bout the rant, need more cigs!)

As to the whole Emmy thingamabob:

I think you make some valid points and add some relevant info (such as the whole Daytime Emmy voting process) on this subject. That said, let me clarify a bit:
I didn't mean to imply that Lucci and SMG were up for the same award or evenly matched. But even then, Lucci was infamous for having been nominated so many times and losing every time. I may be wrong but I believe that SMGs character was an attempt by producers to give Lucci a meaty foil to showcase her work. But the hatred between the two women was so intense, it still lags (I think there was an article on E refering to a set visit by SMG to the AMC set where she brought gifts to the cast but completely shunned La Lucci). I think the most applicable parallel is the film "All About Eve" with Bette Davis and Anne Baxter in the central roles (quick side note: I heard they're remaking the film and want to change the leads into males, I say "Get SMG as Eve and you'll be making Bank!"). In this film, an seemingly innocent up-and-coming starlet manipulates herself into a position of power and stardom within the industry. While I don't accuse Sarah of the same skulldudgery, there are certainly parallels. I think that SMG came into AMC, everyone (especially Lucci) saw her as an inexperienced brat, and she proved them waaaaaaaaaaaay wrong. The fact that SMG won an Emmy for her first nomination, mostly due to her work with Lucci, and that Lucci was ignored by the voters for the umpteenth time (wasn't it her 20th nom that finally got her the award?) for that same work is what I refer to when I mean SMG "beat Lucci at the Emmys. The fact the she left the show shortly after winning to go to Hollywood was her "neener-neener-neener" moment. While I agree with you that Daytime Emmys are sort of the bastard child of awards, they are still Emmys and SMG's obit will say "Emmy Winner" unless she wins an Oscar or Primetime Emmy before that, and I can bet you that Meg Ryan and Demi Moore will also have "Emmy Winner" in their obits (cause I don't really see either of them winning anything more than perhaps a Golden Globe). Also, she won before she was still a teenager, which is a pretty big accomplishment. The entertainment Business has many subcultures and Soap Operas are sort of the lowest tier, with TV and Film higher above them in the hierarchy. Having conquered the world of Soaps, it was off to TV and film to build her career for Sarah. In other words, in only a few years and before legally being an adult, Sarah conquered Daytime, so who can blame the ego-bump that can come with that? As for her Emmy not working for her? Remember that up until this point, Joss Whedon was known for the Buffy movie (a flop in Hollywood's eyes), writing for Roseanne, co-writing Aliens Resurrection (also considered a flop), and an Oscar nod for co-writing Toy Story. Even for such an undeniable genius and third generation industry veteran, he was still an unproven commodity. I'm sure his Oscar nod and brilliant plan for Buffy's first Season were what hooked the producers and Fox, but they needed a star to make it work. By casting Sarah and ASH, who had already won an Emmy, they added some prestige to the show. But when the original Buffy had to leave, SMG skipped the co-star/proving herself as Cordelia and graduated to main attraction before the pilot was even shot. And one of the things I clearly remember from the early days of the show was how Joss' Oscar nod and SMG's Emmy were touted, even used as marketing tools, to legitimize a show about an odd-named Valley Girl who fights monsters (and hasn't everyone experienced skepticism about the quality of the show from the uninitiated solely because of the title?). Joss has been lucky in that he has been able tell his stories pretty much unimpeded by network and producer interference, but that is very rare in Hollywood. He is definitely not some kind of Writing God (as evidenced by Fox's forcing him to reshoot the Firefly pilot, which killed the show IMHO since the two-parter (Serenity) was the first time I really got the scope and premise of the show clearly (I just remember thinking "Now why didn't they air THIS first?"). He's a creator just like any other and has to deal with problems (such as the CC pregnancy changing the arc on Angel this season) the best he can. Writers have long been at the bottom of the Hollywood Totem Pole, and partly due to Joss and other creators like Alan Ball and Chris Carter have managed to gain more control and power within the industry. But TV is a producer's medium much as film is a directors medium, and only through Joss' position and responsibilities as a producer was he able to exert so much control. He's talented and lucky, but I doubt he has absolute control; remember, TV, more than film and theater, is a collaborative medium, and I'm sure there are many battles Joss lost that we will never hear about, just as there are some battles Sarah lost, some of which we have heard about (your Earshot reference, her threatening to leave the show if it moved to UPN, etc.).

Like you, SMG is not one of my favs. I admire her tenacity, her ability to make the most out of the opportunities given to her, and her showbusiness saavy, even if I dislike her methods. I respect her talent and ability to incarnate Buffy. But I've been in the biz long enough to know that one bad apple CAN spoil the bunch. Did SMG ruin Buffy? I don't think so, just as Debra Winger and Shirley Maclaine, despite their differences, didn't ruin Terms of Endearment. Did she have an effect on the show, storylines, and characterization? Absolutely. Do I think her costars, who ARE ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL to this incarnation of Buffy's story, were shortchanged because of her attitudes? Absolutely. I don't know that I can say exactly what this influence was(though recent articles online give me some sense of what this influence might have been and that there WAS indeed an influence), but I think, especially in the last season, that this influence was detrimental to the overall quality of the show.

'Nuff Said. You can eat me alive now.


[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> For what it's worth... -- curious, 09:30:00 06/08/03 Sun

I appreciate your input and observations. I think you make interesting points. And I think you will continue to disagree with Sophist, et al about the degree of SMG's influence on Season 7's storyline. Even if all your perceptions are correct, no one really knows how much SMG affected the story. I have also heard reports that she can be very generous and warm. I don't really care. I'm a fan of the show, not SMG.

she has not contributed at all to any DVD releases, she missed the Academy of Television Arts and Sciences Buffy tribute event, she wasn't at the wrap party, etc.

Personally, these are the kinds of things that do color my perception of the show and SMG to a limited degree. I have all the DVDs through Season 6 and it is very glaring. Eliza Dushku, Julie Benz, Danny Strong and many others including all the regular cast members contributed to commentaries and interviews to some degree. DB, AD and CC did interviews about s3 - from the set of AtS. It comes across as very strange that everyone but the star of the show contributed to the DVDs. It can't be argued that she is "shy" or inarticulate when she appears on the Tonight Show, Biography and SNL, etc. I can understand her not going to Conventions, etc. - but the Academy of Television Arts and Sciences Buffy tribute and the Buffy wrap party after seven years??? She comes across as a celeb who might have grown to resent her role on Buffy and was alienated from the other cast members. She has seemed to be interested in positioning herself for a career as a professional celebrity rather than an artist. I do understand her desire to distance herself from Buffy (the show that made her a household name) but it does come across as kind of ungracious. I would have been interested in hearing her comments - especially since JW has said she was his "partner" in making Buffy.

OTH, she was an actress doing a competent job. She was getting paid the most - so it makes sense that she was worked the hardest. She worked her tail off for many years and was ready for a break. Who could blame her for being burnt out and ready to move on? Maybe fans are not entitled to more than she is willing to give. I think her choices of movies and projects after Buffy will determine her long term career. So far, I'm not impressed by her choices and won't be looking for her.

I'm glad BtVS ended before everyone was completely burned out. I'm looking forward to the new season of AtS and hope everyone can get over Buffy in a timely manner. ;-)


[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Thanks for this post, you managed to verbalize all I couldn't -- RadiusRS, 18:49:07 06/08/03 Sun



[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I didn't read s'kat's post quite the same way -- Sophist, 09:33:29 06/08/03 Sun

you don't know me well enough to say to the degree with which my experience colors my impressions.

I don't think S'kat meant to refer to you personally. I think she meant "you" in the general sense of "one" (as in "one should not"). I read her as re-stating the hearsay rule in more colloquial language.

Whenever you or Sophist post something about philosophy or feminism, I defer to you because I give you the benefit of the doubt that you know what you are talking about.

I'm flattered, though you probably should take my pronouncements with a little less than unconditional faith. Except when it comes to the hearsay rule, of course. :)


[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Yep, that's exactly what I meant! Thanks -- s'kat, 14:54:28 06/08/03 Sun

Was just trying to explain the hearsay rule to the laymen.
Sounds like I failed miserably. Oh well. Thems the breaks.

RR: Whenever you or Sophist post something about philosophy or feminism, I defer to you because I give you the benefit of the doubt that you know what you are talking about.

Soph: I'm flattered, though you probably should take my pronouncements with a little less than unconditional faith. Except when it comes to the hearsay rule, of course. :)

Ditto. Honestly, we're on a public fan board and are all using fake names, I think it's safe to say, we should take a little of what people post with a grain of salt. ;-)

I take what journalists and scientists write in Newspapers with a grain of salt - common practice. Most things are really just a matter of our perceptions. ;-)


[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> To Soph and s'kat a thanks -- RadiusRS, 19:50:14 06/08/03 Sun

As to the first point of Sophists' post, I knew that that was the meaning in s'kat's use of "you". What I object to is being automatically put into the category of unperceptive people. And my response to that was way out of line so thanks to both of you for your graciousness in not going off (I SWEAR I'm not trying to sound like a Glorificus leper groupie).

I agree with your point of taking everything with a grain of salt, and I think your mention of watching the news with that same attitude is a healthy one (the News in the U.S. is VERY different from almost everywhere else). I'm also saying that knowing that grain of salt is part of the picture can help you get a more rounded perception of the situation, even without having all of the information. Think about it like high school math: remember when you had class and you had two or more variables in an equation, an x and y substitute perhaps? If you took them on one by one you would be able to find the values for one or both of the variables. I see life the same way, with information as factors and the grain of salt the unkown that can be worked around. And I thought I would never need that crap after high school. Oh well.


[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I didn't read s'kat's post quite the same way -- Sophist, 09:36:03 06/08/03 Sun

you don't know me well enough to say to the degree with which my experience colors my impressions.

I don't think S'kat meant to refer to you personally. I think she meant "you" in the general sense of "one" (as in "one should not"). I read her as re-stating the hearsay rule in more colloquial language.

Whenever you or Sophist post something about philosophy or feminism, I defer to you because I give you the benefit of the doubt that you know what you are talking about.

I'm flattered, though you probably should take my pronouncements with a little less than unconditional faith. Except when it comes to the hearsay rule, of course. :)


[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Here's a thought about SMG's personality...."Who Cares?" -- Nino, 13:36:22 06/08/03 Sun



[> [> I agree with Sophist -- Fidhle, 19:02:01 06/04/03 Wed

I think it is a mistake to put much emphasis on the real personalities of the actors in what appears on screen. The actors are there to portray what the writers and directors want to show. The cast members of Buffy are among the best actors in TV today, and SMG is noted as being one of the most professional actors in the business. Her private personality is basically irrelevant to her portrayal on screen, and that portrayal is what the writers and directors of the episodes wanted, especially with an actor as accomplished as SMG and the others in the cast. In many ways, the main job of an actor in TV or film is to hit the mark and say the lines with an appropriate affect. While I'm sure that SMG questioned the direction Buffy was going in S6, I am not at all sure that that questioning affected the way in which her character was written during that season.

I totally agree with Sophist that the major reason for the apparent lesser parts for some of the scoobies has to do with the need to flesh out the storyline of the Potentials, once the decision had been made to make that storyline a major part of this final season. Likewise, I'm sure that the frequent use of SMG as the First was based on the decisions of the writers, and not of any desire on the part of any of the actors.


[> [> "Totally" was in reference to plot problems is season 7...not speculation on SMG's personality -- Nino, 20:02:20 06/04/03 Wed

Just to clarify...I do not agree with speculation about SMG's personality, my response was about the plot....im kinda anal about not speculating too much on actors, especially as I was discussing elements of plot, so just didn't want anyone to get the wrong idea :)


[> [> [> Re: "Totally" was in reference to plot problems is season 7...not speculation on SMG's personality -- Jane, 21:15:18 06/04/03 Wed

/Spike's story played out, but Dawn, Giles, Xander, and Anya all got short shrift this season in the storytelling department/

The question of SMG's personality aside, I can't disagree with you about being disappointed by the lack of Scooby-centric character development and screen time in season 7.

I suppose I should care about the Beljoxa's Eye business and various and sundry other little issues of the Buffy mythology that never got tied up in a nice pretty pink bow, but I really just don't. In the end I don't care about that any more than I care whether a Fyarl demon would kick a Chaos demon's butt in a game of D&D. I can't possibly stress enough just how much I do not care.

I do care about the characters and their development and what kept them bound to one another. (Well, not Spike. Saw more than my share of Spuffy bondage in season six. Been there. Done that. Got the black t- shirt to prove it. Don't care about that anymore either.)

But I did care about the Core Four (plus Anya and Dawn) and I didn't fully appreciate just how much I'd missed them until I found myself getting downright giddy seeing the four of them back in their original tight little circle bantering like there was quite possibly going to be no tomorrow just before the final fireworks.

I was shocked when Xander lost his eye this season, but I was more saddened by his amputated storyline. And while I suppose it was amusing watching the big, bad, but not-so-bright First Evil trying to torture a vampire by drowning it (and not even in holy water), I would've much rather spent a bit of that time seeing ASH and AH's considerable talents put to better use before the final curtain fell on the hellmouth.


New Buffy Music Videos -- tomfool, 12:12:12 06/04/03 Wed

The sisters over at www.headtilt.com have a few new homemade music videos. The two newest are - Eminem's 'Without Me' featuring Lilah and Fleetwood Mac's 'Peacekeeper' focusing on BtVS S7 with lots of Chosen footage. I love these things! Helps if you have wideband.


[> Cool, thanks tom! -- Scroll, 12:34:42 06/04/03 Wed



[> Recommended for all your evil femme fatale attorney needs -- KdS, 14:06:55 06/06/03 Fri

I downloaded the Eminem/Lilah one on the high-speed connection at uni today and it is very funny. Some really clever juxtapositions of shot and lyric.


[> Peacemaker is excellent! It did make me cry, though (or maybe I'm just fragile post-series). -- Plin, 09:18:41 06/07/03 Sat



[> [> PeaceKEEPER. Gah. I should never post when emotional. -- Plin, 09:20:15 06/07/03 Sat



[> [> Recommended if you're not really feeling the Buffy love. Sniff. -- tomfool, 10:49:21 06/07/03 Sat



[> Also recommended.. -- Rahael, 10:04:30 06/07/03 Sat

"Closer", also at Headtilt. Excellent stuff. I could watch it (and I do!) again and again.

Saving your recs for later viewing. I only have a dial up so it takes some patience to download these things.


[> [> I couldn'f find "Closer" at headtilt. Have a link? -- Alison, 14:51:10 06/07/03 Sat



[> [> [> Oh, I think they've taken it down. Only temp, I hope. -- Rahael, 16:07:39 06/07/03 Sat

I found this notice:

Sorry. Most of our vids are currently down. We are adding an identifier to them--like a watermark. People have repeatedly taken our vids chopped them up, rearranged the parts and called it their vid. We can't stop them, but from now on, our vids will have a big "HT" in the bottom corner. If you see that in someone else's vid, you'll know it is a direct lift from ours.

Once the identifier has been added, hopefully it'll be up again.

Closer was an Angel/Spike vid!


[> [> Re: Also recommended.. -- Doriander, 17:45:51 06/07/03 Sat

When that first came out I think I had it on loop for a week. And I'm still not tired of it.

It's so wired in my head now that when I hear the actual song, I keep waiting for "cause it's always got to be blood...I'm not an animal...blood is life...I'm not an animal...". Weird ;-).


[> [> [> I know what you mean -- tomfool, 21:44:53 06/07/03 Sat

Last year the sisters had a tour through S6 put to 'Everybody Went Low' by John Hiatt. For a while I had to watch it every day. It wasn't quite as high a resolution as their most recent vids, but the editing was great. It's long gone from the site - I think because it doesn't meet their newer standards, but if they ever put it back up, check it out. Everybody Went Low was the perfect theme song for S6.


[> [> [> Oh, I know I know. You watch it once, you watch it six times..... -- Rahael, 07:30:33 06/08/03 Sun

Okay. now I need to go watch it again


[> Thanks for the reminder! -- deeva, 21:03:50 06/07/03 Sat



Share the Adventure: "The Rescue" -- a thrilling (if self-indulgent) ATP fantasy in 7 parts! -- cjl, 22:10:27 06/04/03 Wed

(Thanks to Rochefort, our fearless leader, and the guiding hand behind MOLOJ. May the light of the revolution never be extinguished.

Disclaimer: Any resemblance in this fanfic to persons living or dead is purely coincidental.)



THE RESCUE (Part I)

[Night. A well-fortified private residence/compound, a la Skywalker Ranch, somewhere in the outskirts of Los Angeles. A quartet of hooded, black-clad figures hits the ground running after leaping from the perimeter fence, and move in lockstep toward the main building, taking out security cameras with hand-held laser fire. Reaching a side door, one of the quartet punches in a security code; they all listen for the sound of an enormous metal bolt sliding back, then quickly file into the building, practically flying down the steps down to the basement. They turn a corner. . .and nearly collide with Riley Finn, standing like a statue in front of the 14-inch thick steel door separating the commandos from their target.

RILEY: Far enough, guys.

[Sam Finn materializes behind the commandos, weapon raised.]

SAM: Not bad. How'd you get past the gate?

HOODED FIGURE #1: You know this isn't right.

RILEY: Just following orders, ma'am.

HF #2: Spoken like a true SS officer.
RILEY: Give me a break. [Riley grabs a walkie-talkie from his belt, and checks in with the rest of his security team.] Right....Right. Stay on it. You've got 20 square miles of woods out there. Bring Johnson, Kilpatrick, and Williamson. Check in every five minutes.

SAM: Under control?

RILEY: Six more around the perimeter. B Section's on it. [To commandos] Sorry, guys--you really should have planned this out a little better. [Riley pulls out his pistol.] Time to wrap it up.

[Riley fires, and a tranquilizer dart hits Sam in the stomach. She stares at him with an expression of pure astonishment, then crumbles to the ground.]

HF #4: What?!

HF #2: How do you think we got the codes?

HF #4: Uh--when were you going to tell us Riley was our inside man?

HF #2: Need to know basis.

[Riley punches in the security code for the steel door.]

HF #4: Riley--not that I'm complaining--but why are you helping us? I mean, isn't Joss paying you about a billion dollars to head up security?

RILEY: Hey, I hated "As You Were" as much as anybody. Do you think I've enjoyed spending the last two years as a slave to an institution I no longer respect?

HF #4: The hot wife must've helped.

RILEY [looks fondly at Sam's unconscious body]: Well,yeah. Kinda takes the edge off.

[Again, the sound of an enormous steel bolt sliding back. Riley pushes the door open. HF#2 steps in front to address the group.]

HF #2: Ladies and gentlemen--this is a glorious day for the assembled membership of the Republic of MOLOJ! It is the culmination of months of effort, in which...

HF #1 (to Riley): Any more tranquilizer darts?

HF #2 (deflated): Oh, all right. Get in there. [The commandos race through the open door.] Riley--maybe you should hang back for a while. Until we explain things. [Riley nods.]

[The commandos break into what seems to be a rec room for the prisoners. WILLOW and XANDER are lying asleep in bed, dressed in adult-sized footie pajamas. BUFFY is sitting on a loveseat, clutching Mr. Gordo, watching a ten-year-old tape of All My Children with a glazed expression in her eyes. As the commandos look on in horror, GILES slumps forward, face
first, into a well-worn copy of the Necronomicon.]

HF #3: Dear God.

[HF #2 tears off his hood, reveals himself as ROCHEFORT. He races over to Giles, gently lifts him off the table.]

ROCHEFORT: They've been drugged. [To Giles] Don't worry,my friend. I have kept the bright light of your beloved Jenny alive for lo, these many years. Your day of vengeance is at hand.

HF #3: My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die.

ROCHEFORT: Very funny. [To HF #1] HonorH, how's Buffy?
[HonorH removes her hood, and checks out the Slayer. Buffy doesn't even look up.]

HONOR H: She'll be OK. Shoes are good, blouse is still in style, jeans- -well, I don't know what she was thinking there--but give me about twenty minutes at a local mall and she'll be back to normal.

BUFFY (a glimmer of recognition): "M-mall?"

HONOR H (practically in tears): That's right, Buffy.

[HF #4 removes his hood, reveals himself as CJL. He tries shaking Xander awake.]

CJL: Xander....Xander! [Xander, groggy, reaches up and grabs CJL by the shoulder, pulls him down and whispers in his ear.] We will. We'll get them out of here. All of them. I promise. [Xander whispers again] It rocked. They're setting up Dark Phoenix for the third movie. [Xander smiles, and slips back into unconsciousness.]

ROCHEFORT: We're going to have to move fast. We've got about a five- minute window. [To HF #3] ponygirl? [HF #3 tears off her hood, revealing ponygirl. ponygirl whips out her walkie-talkie.]

PONYGIRL: This is pg to punfu, pg to punfu. Do you read, punfu?

ANOM (over the receiver): Clear as Jeffrey Bell.

PONYGIRL: Are we set up at the halfway house?

ANOM: All ready. How's it looking out there?

PONYGIRL: Bad. They're in worse shape than we thought. We've gotta get 'em out of here before Joss and the Frog Network's muscle comes in.

WILLOW (tossing in her sleep): Nooooo....frogs! Frogs!

CJL: Well, that explains a lot...

ROCHEFORT: We don't have time for this! Let's get these people ambulatory, otherwise we're never going to make it!

JOSS (at the doorway): You're not going to make it, anyway.


[> Part II - "Sexy Tweed" -- Rochefort, 22:18:11 06/04/03 Wed

[At the doorway stands the master himself, Joss Whedon. He is dressed in t-shirt and jeans, and slouched against the door frame Spike-style. He looks relaxed. The MOLOJ members stand stunned in front of the man they have admired for so long and is now their enemy. Rochefort pulls out his tranquilizer.]

ROCHEFORT: You can't stop us, Joss. They aren't yours. Not anymore.

JOSS: That so?

[CJL has moved to attack Joss. Joss does a little Doc move, and steals CJL's pen. Then he turns to face them.]

JOSS: You see, my lovely fans, you are like Giles to my Buffy. I write. You watch.

[Suddenly one of the basement windows shatters. Glass flies out and Joss and everyone are stunned and startled. When the dust clears--Rob emerges in full cheerleader regalia.]

ROB: (shaking pom-poms) Buffy! Goooooo BUFFY!

RILEY: Rob, get back to your post!

ROB: Yay Buffy! Buffy DO something!

JOSS: (chuckling) Buffy, do something. The Macarena perhaps.

[Buffy begins to do the Macarana. Her face blank]

HONORH: Oh god! Stop it! Stop making her do that! It's like some sort of frozen diet food comercial! It's like ten years old! And it wasn't even cool THEN!

JOSS: Xander, Giles, she needs back up.

[Xander and Giles stand up and join her in the Macarena]

PONYGIRL: Hey Joss. (close up on Ponygirl) All the girls that could be slayers... WILL be slayers. You said it yourself.

[Ponygirl does a cartwheel over to Joss and ends it by kicking him the head. Joss pushes Ponygirl into a wall, but Ponygirl fights back. Things are looking equal; no fighter gaining the advantage.]

PONYGIRL: HonorH! You could be a Slayer, too! Help!

[HonorH has fallen silent. She is watching Giles do the Macarena.]

ROB: HonorH! Help her! Go HonorH! (shaking pom-poms)

HONORH: He's so beautiful. (She moves to touch his arm, running it along the tweed.)

ROCHEFORT: I knew she'd be a liability.

CJL: It's not her fault... she's... she's falling for Giles.

[Xander and Willow look up from where they lay in feety pajamas, wide eyed and frightened. Giles suddenly shakes himself awake, he looks frightened as well, telling HonorH with his eyes to stop, warding her off...but it is too late. HonorH takes him in her arms, dips him, and kisses him passionately. His glasses go crooked on his face. There is a flash of light and the ground shakes... when the MOLOJ members and Scoobies look again...HonorH is no more. Ponygirl has let her gaurd down and is thrown into some boxes by Joss, who chuckles, tapping his pen on his hand.]

HONORIFICUS: Ooooh, Giles baby.

GILES: (straightening his glasses) Help?


[> Part III - "Finally, Something Goes Right" -- ponygirl, 22:29:58 06/04/03 Wed

[Smoke fills the basement in a cool '80's video kind of way. Rochefort and CJL stagger back against the basement wall, coughing.]

CJL: We've got to fall back! Cut our losses and run!

ROCHEFORT: No dammit! We can still salvage the mission. Grab a Scoobie. We'll try and come back for the rest.

[Rob joins them, frantically waving his pom poms in an attempt to clear the air.]

ROB: How are we supposed to choose? I love them all!

[The smoke clears as a majestic figure glides forward, if by gliding you mean earth-staggering steps. Honorificus sweeps aside the smoke with one gesture of her well-manicured hand, a second holds Giles up off the ground in a gentle yet firm grip, the third plucks at an errant blood larvae that threatens to fall from her gown.]

HONORIFICUS: So Giles honey, why don't we ditch these losers and head back to my crypt? I've got nachos, and the new issue of W.

GILES: um, er.

[Joss steps forward]

JOSS: Okay, you aren't one of my demons--though you could possibly represent my deep-seated fear of accessorizing--but you could help me out of my little situation here. Let's talk deal. Maybe something along the lines of consulting producer?

[CJL sneaks over to the pile of boxes where ponygirl is sitting up groggily.]

PONYGIRL: You guys were going to leave me! I heard you!

CJL: Nah, you must of heard wrong, what with the unconsciousness and all.

ROCHEFORT: Over here! Hurry!

[Rochefort and Rob are crouched over the remaining Scoobies, who are huddled wide-eyed and fearful against a wall.]

ROCHEFORT: We've got to get them out here! If Honorificus takes that deal...

[Honorificus seems to be considering Joss' offer. His smile grows wider as he twirls his pen.]

JOSS: And there's plenty of room for growth -- not that you need to get any larger -- there are a number of ideas I'm working on. Maybe something with Faith or one of the Potentials.

HONORIFICUS: Potentials?

JOSS: I think Kennedy or that other one that I didn't kill--

HONORIFICUS: You think I could just forget the crimes you've inflicted on all of us? The outfits those girls wore? Rona's overalls? Chloe's shirt? You don't get to walk away from that Whedon!

[Honorificus drops Giles with a thud. She reaches all of her hands for Joss' throat]

HONORIFICUS: Vi's hat!!

[Rochefort makes a dash for Giles. Rob and CJL are pushing Willow and Xander towards the basement window. Rob is whispering encouragements to Willow.]

ROB: You know Kennedy wasn't that bad. I was really starting to like her.

[Ponygirl kneels beside Buffy]

PONYGIRL: It's going to be okay. We'll have you out of here in no time. Just one thing, when you said you loved Spike you meant it, right?

ROCHEFORT: Ponygirl!

[He's dragging Giles towards the others]

ROCHEFORT: The mission?

PONYGIRL: Sorry, jeez. [to Buffy] We'll chat in the van.

[Rob looks back at Honorificus and Joss locked in their death struggle.]

ROB: Aren't we going to do something? They'll kill each other!

CJL: And that's a bad thing?

ROB: If Honorificus dies then so does HonorH!

CJL: Wait, are you saying there's a connection between HonorH and Honorificus?

ROCHEFORT: I don't think Honorificus is in any trouble.

[Honorificus is busily choking the life out of Joss.]

HONORIFICUS: Anya's hair!!

JOSS: W-w-w-

HONORIFICUS: What?

JOSS: W-w- Wood!

[She loosens her grip just a fraction.]

HONORIFICUS:What about Principal Wood?

JOSS: I-I have him in another part of the building. I was planning to kill him horribly for expressing a brief possible romantic interest in Buffy. But maybe...

HONORIFICUS: Yes?

JOSS: I could take you to him.

[Honorificus sets Joss down and dusts him off.]

HONORIFICUS: I think we have a deal.

[Smiling, they turn back towards the basement.]

HONORIFICUS: Hey guys? Change of plan. I'll be killing you and letting Joss have the Scoobies. Uh guys?

[All that they see is the empty basement and the open basement window.]

[Outside on the lawn, the MOLOJ commando squad tries to lead the disoriented Scoobies away from the building.]

ROCHEFORT: Finally something goes right! Now where's that van?

[There's a loud burst of static. Anom's voice, panicked and possibly female, comes through the walkie talkie]

ANOM: Something's gone wrong!

CJL: [to Rochefort] Do I even have to mention that this is your fault?


[> Part IV - "The Retconning" -- Rhysdux and HonorH, 23:35:43 06/04/03 Wed

ROCHEFORT: It's not my fault, whatever you say--

[The escaping MOLOJ members wait while Rochefort tries to raise anom on his walkie-talkie. The Scoobies are starting to wake up.]

WILLOW: Monkeys got clothes . . .

CJL: I think they're starting to come out of it. Xander? You in there, man?

XANDER: Anya, sweetie, roll over. Gotta make room for Andrew.

[The MOLOJ stand around blinking, hoping they heard wrong.]

ROCHEFORT: Anom, you copy?

[Finally the static breaks. The voice that comes through isn't anom's. It's definitely female, and most definitely pissed off.]

SAM: Mind if I have a chat with my husband?

RILEY: Oh, @#%^.

PONYGIRL (to Rob): Did you know he could swear like that?

ROB: Would never have guessed.

[Reluctantly, Riley takes the walkie-talkie.]

RILEY: Sweetie, you're taking this far too personally. I mean, who stun-gunned me in Guatemala after I got infected by that horny demon?

ROCHEFORT: For the love of all that's unholy, Finn, just promise her roses, tell her her butt looks great in that outfit, and ask her to let anom go! We're working on a schedule here.

RILEY: Listen, Sammy, I know I should've told you, but you knew what Joss was doing was wrong just as much as I did. Let us get the Scoobies out and we can . . . (looks nervously at Rochefort, covers his mouth and the receiver with one hand, and mumbles something. After a moment, he grins and gives Rochefort the thumbs-up.) Love you too, baby. See you in sixty. (switches the walkie-talkie off) We got it. Sam's in.

ROB (fretting): But how are we going to rescue HonorH and whoever else Joss has in there? He could be keeping the entire "Firefly" cast.

[Meanwhile, back in the mansion, Joss considers his new ally nervously. HONORIFICUS doesn't seem to notice JOSS's nervousness, as she is leering evilly yet happily at WOOD. WOOD regards her with a mixture of sexual attraction and alarm. This is not surprising, as HONORIFICUS's demonic divinity garb has been transformed into soft, supple, sensual black leather. She looks like the Demon Goddess Dominatrix Empress of Hell and all surrounding territories. JOSS seems to be trying to keep more than an arm's length away from her.]

HONORIFICUS (backing WOOD into a corner): Oh, Wood, you're going to learn so much more about true evil than you ever dreamed possible. The darkness, the agony, how to manipulate enemies and influence allies, the pungent smell of roasting flesh...

JOSS: How about a guest spot on Angel? I'm sure we could swing something.

HONORIFICUS (grabbing Wood with all of her hands): Depends. What would I be wearing?

(HONORIFICUS has not noticed JOSS removing CJL's pen from his pocket, or the fact that JOSS is now leaning against a wall in the compound which has been painted white.

JOSS (hastily scribbling something on the wallpaper near the door): You just don't get it, do you? I'm the writer! I have the power!

[HONORIFICUS screams a horrible ululating wail and falls to her knees. She seems to be in unbearable pain, which may have been partially caused by the retconning of her sexy, stylish black leather outfit into a fluffy pink wool sweater, a lime green polyester tank top, a khaki maxi skirt, and scuffed brown and white saddle shoes.]

HONORIFICUS: NOOOOOOOOOO! What did you DO to me?!

JOSS (snickering): Buffy?

[BUFFY appears, seemingly out of thin air.]

JOSS: Tell her.

BUFFY (in a patient voice): You have a sooooooul now.

[JOSS nods and BUFFY disappears.]

HONORIFICUS: (She suddenly gasps, all of her hands going to her breast or her head.) Oh, for the love of Versace, not now, not--

[Too late. Her figure shifts and dwindles down to that of HonorH.]

HONORH: --now. Uh-oh. (Spots Joss, smiles, feigns clueless.) Have I been behaving badly?

JOSS: You have no idea. (Looms threateningly over her)

[HONORH is forced to think quickly, which is never a good idea with her. She blurts out the first thing that comes to mind, which is:]

HONORH: I have swimmer's ear!

JOSS (stopping, puzzled): Eh?

HONORH: Can't believe that worked. 'Bye! (Turns and bolts through a nearby door.)

JOSS (scribbling): That door doesn't go anywhere--now.

[HONORH re-enters the room she just left through another door and groans in frustration.]

JOSS: Now to take care of your friends...


[> [> Part IV - "The Retconning" (continued) -- Rhysdux and HonorH, 23:40:58 06/04/03 Wed

[JOSS's voice booms all around the ranch, like the voice of God speaking.]

JOSS: Riley, take these people prisoner.

[RILEY immediately disarms all the MOLOJ members--even Slayer Ponygirl.]

PONYGIRL: Riley! How can you do this?

RILEY (wretchedly): I'm sorry. I don't want to betray you. It's just that it's my duty to capture anyone who enters this compound, and Joss always wrote me as being passionately devoted to duty. There's nothing I can do.

[RILEY escorts them back to the main room in JOSS's house. JOSS, HONORH and the SCOOBIES are there already, as are FORREST and a few other Initiative members. The Initiative members immediately begin guarding the members of MOLOJ.]

JOSS (smirks): I'll have to create a new prison for you lot. But don't worry--I'll make sure that all of you experience exactly what my pets have been going through for years. In fact, maybe it's time I gave you a sample just what life is going to be like for you from now on. Oh, Marti?

[MARTI appears in a puff of pink smoke beside JOSS.]

MARTI (typing on a laptop as she speaks): All of you are totally helpless, unable to move. You are depressed, lost in a maze of bad relationships that make you dirty, degraded and inhuman. You are all addicted to lesbian sex and/or drugs in the form of magic. And not one of you has ever, ever been happy.

[The MOLOJ group fights MARTI's words furiously, but minute by minute the twisted storylines seem to be coming true. The harder they fight, the more futile it becomes.]

WILLOW (sitting on the edge of the bed, looking despondent): We all fought it at first...then we realized there was absolutely nothing we could do. We're helpless. . .forever. Even me. I can't cast a single spell unless Joss or Marti will it. (sobs)

JOSS (gloating): And there is NOTHING you can do about it.

VOICE (offstage): Oh no?

[JOSS's pen disintegrates. So does MARTI's laptop. The twisted storylines--and HONORH's hideous outfit--vanish as RHYSDUX, accompanied by hundreds of thousands of people, mostly female stroll through the door. The room shouldn't be able to hold these many people, but in some dimensionally transcendental way, it manages to expand.]

ANOM: Rhysdux, watch out! Joss is dangerous.

[RHYSDUX doesn't spare a glance in JOSS's or MARTI's direction. Instead, she addresses the vast hordes before her.]

RHYSDUX: Ladies and gentlemen, I'd like you to meet Joss Whedon and Marti Noxon. They're going to be your characters for today.

JOSS and MARTI: What?!

RHYSDUX (continuing, with a very evil gleam in her eye): Now remember, this is a no-holds'-barred exercise. You can use any 'ship, any setting, any time that you want. The only requirement is that you use these two in your stories somewhere. Beginning. . .now. Pencils, pens, laptops--GO!

[The hordes begin scribbling. JOSS begins to scream as, within the space of three seconds, he is alternately teleported to the Quantum Leap universe with the Buffybot, mind-switched with Connor Angel, and murdered by the Immortal Kronos. MARTI shrieks and tries to flee, but is immediately ambushed by Xena, Gabrielle and the First Slayer for perpetuating stereotypes about rape on the show.]

RHYSDUX (over the noise of the melee and mayhem): Come on. (motions the MOLOJ and the Buffy characters toward the door.)

GILES (looking sternly at RHYSDUX): We can't go out there. We'd be annihilated. Listen.

[Screaming can be heard from outside. Everyone looks troubled, with the exception of HONORH, who briefly transforms into HONORIFICUS, looks delighted at the sounds of pain and misery, then turns back into HONORH again.]

XANDER: Not really sounding harmless out there.

RHYSDUX (chuckles): Really not. That's our defensive weapon. Not even Joss has any defenses that can withstand this.

[RHYSDUX leads them out the door. Outside, battalions of incredibly beautiful and unbelievably strong young women, all with oddly colored hair and eyes, and all with nametags bearing names like Sariad, Kymbyrlee or Araminta, are fighting Joss's army. Despite the fact that the soldiers keep killing them, the girls continue to fight, pausing only to die in improbable yet noble ways.]

PONYGIRL (whispering): Mary Sue...

RHYSDUX: Yep. Miss Cam of Middle-Earth's fanfic university explained to the Mary Sues that they had a duty and a responsibility to go out there and fight, maybe die, for the freedom of their favorite characters. (shrugs) Like they were going to say no. I mean, this is what they were born for, in a way.

[The MOLOJ group and the Scoobies reach the escape vans. GYRUS and FINN MACCOOL are in one, LITTLEBIT and FIDHLE in a second, CACTUSWATCHER and MSGILES in a third, and RANDOM, CARO and VAMPRILEY in the fourth. The Scoobies are escorted to the lead van. CJL pauses, turning to RHYSDUX.]

CJL: Where did you find all those people who were writing tales about Joss and Marti?

RHYSDUX: Oh, Godawful Fan Fiction, BadBuffyFic, Official Buffy Angel Fanfiction University...

ANOM (also pausing): You sicced writers of bad fanfic on them? That's absolutely. . .

RHYSDUX (grinning): I know.

RANDOM (motioning frantically): Get in the vans NOW!!

(The MOLOJ gang and the Scooby Gang hasten into the vans, close the doors, and drive down the private road leading to the compound.)

POV: INSIDE OF VAN

BUFFY: So, where are you taking us?

HONORH: We were thinking Seacouver. . .

PONYGIRL (faintly): You know what, guys? I'm not sure that's what we should be worrying about right now.

(She points. The members of MOLOJ whirl as one to behold the massive Turok-Han army approaching their vans.)

LEAD TUROK: Grr. Arrgh.


[> Part V - "Sword Fishing" -- cjl, 23:44:38 06/04/03 Wed

PONYGIRL (faintly): You know what, guys? I'm not sure that's what we should be worrying about right now.

[She points. The members of MOLOJ whirl as one to behold the massive Turok-Han army approaching their vans.]

LEAD TUROK: Grr. Arrgh.

[POV: INSIDE OF VAN]

CJL (angrily): I've had enough of this crap. [Starts rummaging through a rather dangerous-looking pile of metallic objects in a corner of the van.]

ROCHEFORT: Blocked. All sides.

PONYGIRL: We need a teleportation spell. A big one.

HONORH (sarcastic): Hey, no problem. We've got the most powerful witch in the Western Hemisphere, remember?

WILLOW (still groggy): No, mommy, I can go to school today. It's just a little fever, no problem...

[CJL comes out of the pile with what seems to be a sword.]

CJL (looks it over): That'll do. [He strides toward the back of the van. HonorH heads him off.]

HONORH: Excuse me, where do you think you're going?

CJL: Out.

HONORH: This is not exactly the best time for sightseeing.

CJL: Not exactly the best time for sitting tight, either.

HONORH: What, you're going to go outside and fight the army of the undead with a-- [Grabs CJL's wrist, and accidentally brushes against the hilt of the sword] This thing is PLASTIC! [Reads the inscription] "He-Man and the Masters of the Universe"?! Have you lost your MIND?!

[The van starts to tilt from side to side, sending HonorH sprawling, and allowing CJL to throw open the back doors of the van. He leaps out--just before a lunging Rochefort has a chance to grab his leg--then closes the doors quickly behind him.]

ROCHEFORT (still holding a fistful of air): Damn.

ANOM (coming in over ponygirl's walkie-talkie): Punfu to pg, this is punfu to pg, come in, pg.

PONYGIRL: How's it going over there, punfu?

ANOM (v.o.): Not very good. We're picking off a few of them with small weapons fire, but for every one we kill, two charge right in. Kind of like a gift with purchase. How are things on your end?

PONYGIRL: Oh, not bad. We're surrounded by Turok-Han, our only experienced Slayer is the poster girl for Phenobarbital, and CJL has apparently committed suicide. Other than that, we're fine.

[A moment of stunned silence.]

ANOM (v.o.): We've got another complication.

HONORH: And the fun just keeps on leavin'.

ANOM (v.o.): I just talked to Rufus at the safe house. Our little guerilla operation just escaped the zoo.

PONYGIRL: Huh?

ANOM (v.o.) It's all over the Buffy boards. lunasea is gathering an army of B/A shippers, Tara, Oz, Anya and Cordelia holdouts from BC&S are mobilizing, and Rufus says there are thousands of Spuffy fanatics booking plane tickets to Seacouver as we speak.

ROCHEFORT (grabbing the walkie-talkie): What the hell happened? This entire operation was predicated on secrecy! You, me, ponygirl, Rufus, cjl and HonorH were the only ones who knew the location!

ANOM (v.o.): Rufus said--

[Silence.]

ROCHEFORT: Anom? Are you all right?

ANOM (v.o.): I'm fine. That's funny--the van stopped shaking. Anyway, Rufus said somebody from the L.A. area leaked it on one of the Spike boards.

[All eyes turn to ponygirl.]

PONYGIRL (avoiding eye contact): I-I resent that insinuation.

ROCHEFORT (sighs): It doesn't matter. The safe house has been compromised. Every shipper in North America is going to be waiting to get a piece of their favorite Scoobie. It'll be like throwing them to the sharks.

ANOM (v.o.): Well, as they say in the movies--Where Do We Go from Here?

ROCHEFORT: It's not going to make any difference if we're--

[The van stops shaking. Silence. The sound of crickets can be heard from outside.]

ROCHEFORT: --stuck.

[Suddenly, the back doors of the van fly open, and CJL, apparently no worse for wear, hops in and closes the doors behind him.

CJL: We're clear. Let's get moving.

HONORH (picking her jaw up off the floor): Wait a minute. Are you telling me you took out an army of Turok-Han with that stupid little plastic sword?

CJL: Oh, come on. How can anybody take those guys seriously after what happened in "Chosen"? Two million ubervamps against thirty slayers? For God's sake, they couldn't even kill Andrew!

[Nodding and murmurs to the effect of "he's got a point" all around.]

CJL [To Rochefort] Uh, fearless leader? Have we got ourselves a convoy?

ROCHEFORT (doing his best Shatner into the walkie-talkie): Attention, all units--let's get the hell out of here.

[A roar of engines, and the caravan speeds off into the night.]


[> Part VI - "Meanwhile, Back at the Josscave..." -- rochefort, 23:52:58 06/04/03 Wed

[Joss Whedon enters quickly through a large metal door, followed by Marti Noxon who quickly slams the door behind her and leans against it breathing heavily. For a moment, she looks at Joss, and then indicates with her eyes that her bosoms are heaving, but he doesn't seem to notice. He's looking down at some papers.]

MARTI: Getting the fan fiction writers to calm down by telling them you were hosting a convention where they would learn all the secrets to becoming a brilliant writer and producer of their own genre-busting show worked! They were like lambs to the slaughter.

JOSS: Well I'm brilliant.

MARTI: Are you going to go out there and talk to them?

JOSS: No, I have Andrew doing it.

MARTI: Great, so um... (she indicates her bosoms and heaves them.) We have some time then?

JOSS: (pacing in the other direction) Now, we have to take care of those MOLOJ fruit cakes. I've had it leaked that they were headed for Seacouver, so that means they've got no where to go. Getting the Scoobies back should be no problem. By the time the new season of Angel starts, they should be CRAWLING back here begging for guest spots on the new series. I'm sure since they've left they've been mostly comatose and unanimated. They need me....

ENGLISH VOICE: Bloody hell they need you; to lock them in your basement? You wanker.

[Camera pans to reveal a skeleton, shirtless, chained to the wall.]

MARTI: (grinning evily) It's nice to have you back where we like you, Spikey.

JOSS: Quiet, Spike. I'll tell you when I need you. Angel starts in October.

SPIKE: You could at least wheel a telly over here.

MARTI: Poor Spikey.

[Marti approaches Spike with a handful of Wheetabix.]

SPIKE: Don't let her get near me! She's bloody crazy, that one. I'm a skeleton you daft bird! I can't eat wheetabix!
Marti: Such a bad bad skeleton. Such a bad boy skeleton. Wanna go for a ride on your motor cycle, bad boy skeleton? (she plays with his pants and an AUDIBLE unzipping is heard.)

SPIKE: Right, love to baby, but it sorta burnt off.

MARTI: You still have hot cheek bones.

JOSS: Leave him alone, Marti. He has a soul. Come here.

SPIKE: Right. Bloody soul. (looks down at himself) I ain't even got a spleen. (he tries to look up) No peroxide hair I bet either.

JOSS: (to Marti) Even though I'm not worried about the Scoobies because they'll be back soon, we still have to worry about consistency within the Joss-verse.

MARTI: (bewildered) Consistency?

JOSS: Honor H fell for Giles. She's turned evil, but she's not dead yet. That has to be resolved.

MARTI: Oh.

JOSS: Plus, I....

[Suddenly the door swings open and Andrew hurries in and slams the door. He is wearing a Victorian dress.]

ANDREW: Hi Joss, Marti. Hi Spike. Wow, Spike looks cool. Can I pour wine in his mouth and watch it dribble on the floor?

JOSS: What is it Andrew?

ANDREW: Sorry. (he pauses. then quickly) somebody put me in a Jane Austen novel. As if that's even fan fic. I wouldn't bother you, but I'm supposed to marry some guy named Darcy and I just wanted to see if that was cool with you or...

JOSS: Alright, hold on. I'll go out and talk to them. Marti, could you take care of that plot idea of mine? Just write something up.

[Joss hands Marti the papers and goes out. Marti looks over the papers with a glint in her eye....]

MARTI: (mumbling to herself) stop whenever I want...heh heh, don't have a problem. Irresistably attracted...heh, bored cause my boyfriend doesn't practice S and M and... oh yeah, kill Honor H. heh heh.

[Andrew wanders over to Spike. He leans against the wall and sighs]

ANDREW: Spike, do you believe in love?

[Spike looks down at him from his place on the wall.]

ANDREW: Cause Mr. Darcy is just so stoic and uncommunicative and...

MARTI: And he won't he beat you?

[Spike and Andrew look at her flatly. After a moment, she goes back to her writing. Each word making it more likely that Honor H and Rochefort will passionately throw each other into the walls of the van and the whole van will collapse on top of them like a giant metaphor!]


[> Part VII -- "Character Devlopments" -- cjl, 00:02:29 06/05/03 Thu

[Fifteen hours later, near the Oregon border.]

PONYGIRL: Buffy? [Buffy's eyelids flutter open.] Buffy, are you all right?

BUFFY: Depends on the definition.

PONYGIRL [to the MOLOJ commandos]: I think she's coming around. [To BUFFY] Buffy, where's Dawn? We couldn't find her at the compound.

BUFFY: Not so loud. Dawn's with her father. I mean, she's with my father. I mean. . .oh man. My head hurts way too much for metaphysics.

PONYGIRL: She's with Hank?

BUFFY: I promised Joss I wouldn't put up a struggle if he let her go.

ROCHEFORT: Uncommonly decent of him.

BUFFY: To be honest, I don't think he was interested in her anymore.

GILES (coming around): Oh good lord. Where am I?

CJL: You're in the back of an unmarked van, heading north toward the Canadian border.

GILES: Really? Hm. Reminds me of my 17th birthday.

HONORH (sidling up to Giles): Would there be a story connected with that little remark?

[XANDER's eyes creak open. He shakes the rocks out of his head and tries to get up, but he's wobbly from a combination of medicated hangover and motion sickness. CJL and Rochefort grab him before he tips over.]

ROCHEFORT: Steady.

XANDER: Thanks, guys. Now if you'll excuse me? I have to kill somebody.

[XANDER struggles to break free, but Rochefort and CJL(barely) hold him back.]

XANDER: He killed her. Son of a bitch KILLED her, and didn't even let me say goodbye.

CJL: Uh, Roche, he's kind of strong.

XANDER: Two stupid lines of dialogue with Andrew. TWO STUPID LINES!

ROCHEFORT: Xander--believe me-I sympathize. But giving walking right back to Joss isn't going to do anybody any good.

[Xander throws them off and steps back, glaring.]

XANDER: What the hell do you want me to do? You want me to just let it "roll off my back" and "get on with my life"? Because it ain't gonna happen. Sometimes. . .sometimes she was the only thing in this world that made it worth getting up in the morning. Do you guys have any idea how it feels to lose somebody like that?!

ROCHEFORT: And killing yourself is going to make you feel better?

WILLOW: They're right, Xander.

XANDER: Not now, Will.

WILLOW: Don't you think we've had enough vengeance in this series?

[That takes the fight out of Xander. He slumps against the side of the van, and slides down next to Willow.]

XANDER: That was a cheap shot. I kind of resent the whole "invoke the memory of a loved one."

WILLOW: Hey, I can "invoke" if I want. Anya was my friend, too.

XANDER, CJL, and ROCHEFORT: She was?

WILLOW (to Xander): Sure she was. I was teaching her witchcraft, and she taught me about a few of those extra little buttons she installed on you.

CJL: Wait a minute. You were teaching Anya witchcraft?

WILLOW: Uh huh. She was pretty good for an amateur. Must've been the 1100 years of demonic experience. But you saw all that on the TV series, right?

CJL: No. We didn't. They must have, uh, left that part out.

GILES (o.s.): Isn't that annoying? Honestly, Sky One cuts the life out of these programmes.

ROCHEFORT: There's something weird going on here.

CJL: You don't know the half of it. The Willow-teaching-Anya plot line? It was part of an essay I was working on about missed opportunities in Season Seven.

XANDER (to Willow): That's gotta mean something, but I don't understand a word he just said.


[> [> Part VII -- "Character Devlopments" (continued) -- cjl, 00:06:47 06/05/03 Thu

[Cut to: Buffy and ponygirl.]

PONYGIRL: Buffy, you OK?

BUFFY: Yeah. Just thinking. Hard to do that when you're racing around town trying to avert the apocalypse and empower an entire generation.

PONYGIRL: Anything in particular?

BUFFY: People. Things I left behind.

PONYGIRL: Like?

BUFFY: Mom. I keep thinking that whenever we get out of this van, Mom's going to be waiting at the door with cookies and orange juice. I know it's stupid, but I can't help it.

PONYGIRL: It's not stupid at all.

BUFFY: And the Bronze. It's gone. I remember the first time I had a drink--you know, a REAL drink in there, and even then I knew they were watering down the liquor. And I miss the little corner table near the stage, where you can just scrunch in with a couple of friends.

PONYGIRL: And that cozy little spot under the staircase?

BUFFY: Yeah, that was--oh. We're back to the question, aren't we?

PONYGIRL: Not that I'm pressuring you or anything. [Pause.] Did you love him? Do you love him?

[Buffy ponders the question for what seems an eternity; ponygirl is ready to explode. Wait for it. Wait for it...]

BUFFY: Sure I do. [ponygirl can barely contain her joy.] When I think about all he did for me, all the times he's been there for me--

CJL: Excuse me, mind if we cut in?

PONYGIRL (teeth gritted): As a matter of fact, I do.

CJL: Sorry. Just want to try a little experiment. [To Buffy] Buffy, couldn't help but hear the last bit of the conversation. Let me repeat the question: do you love Spike? [Again, Buffy ponders the eternal question.]

BUFFY: Honestly? I don't know.

PONYGIRL: WHAT?!

[CJL rubs his temples in anticipation of the incoming migraine.]

CJL: Oh boy.

BUFFY: I mean, maybe I do--but maybe I'm not ready to love anybody in a permanent, settle down, love you forever kind of way.

ROCHEFORT: Unbaked cookie dough.

BUFFY: Weird metaphor, but it works.

PONYGIRL: But you...you just said...what the heck is going on here?

CJL (wearily): According to your interpretation of the text, Buffy loves Spike. According to MY interpretation, she hasn't made up her mind between Spike and Angel, and she might NEVER make up her mind.

PONYGIRL: You've got to be kidding me.

CJL: They're fictional characters. They have no independent existence. They live through the authorial voice.

PONYGIRL: You're saying we're writing them now? Right now?

CJL: That's about the size of it.

PONYGIRL: I'm going to need a little more evidence if I'm going to believe that.

[Cut to: Giles and HonorH, looking very cozy comfy on the floor of the van.]

GILES: Alaska? Marvelous countryside! I remember I was just coming out of the Academy and the Watchers' Council sponsored a ten-day cruise to the Aleutian Islands. Positively stunning. If you're in the area, I really have to pay you a visit next time I'm in the states...

PONYGIRL: Okay. Officially freaked out.

[Rochefort is sweating buckets, sensing his entire well-planned operation is about to slip down the tubes.]

ROCHEFORT: But...but it was fine! We executed the plan to the letter--well, with a few glitches here and there, but nothing too bad-- and everybody was in character!

CJL: Did Willow, Xander, Giles, or Buffy say any more than two lines before we got into this van?

ROCHEFORT: No.

CJL: That explains it.

PONYGIRL: Oh my God. Do you know what this means? [Off CJL and Rochefort's blank stares] There's no way we can take these people to the safe house! You think it's bad in here? There are thousands of fanatical shippers of every conceivable allegiance waiting for them in Seacouver. Put these characters in that crowd, and it'll make the writing of Season 6 Spike look like a beacon of clarity.

CJL: So what are we going to do with them?

ROCHEFORT: Oh no. We're not taking them back to Joss. I've worked too long and too hard--

CJL: Don't you get it? This has nothing to do with Joss. This has nothing to do with the Scoobies. IT'S ALL ABOUT US. We're the ones who created the kidnapping scenario. We're the ones who put them in the basement, and we're the ones working out our issues with these characters.

PONYGIRL: I get it. My whole obsession about Buffy and Spike. Rochefort, you're still angry about Joss' pattern of destroying relationships. CJL, you're pissed about how Joss and ME treated Anya and Xander in Season 7.

ROCHEFORT [pointing to HonorH]: And her problem?

HONORH: Did you READ Part III of this fanfic?

[ROCHEFORT stumbles back to his corner of the van, sitting down a little too fast and too hard, absorbed in thought.]

ROCHEFORT: OK. OK. We're still in control. [Light bulb goes off] In fact, we've never been out of "control." [To the MOLOJ commandos] Look, we've got four pretty decent writers here. If everything we've experienced over the last 24 hours really is a manifestation of our collective imaginations, we should be able to come up with a solution that satisfies everybody. What do you say? One for all and all for one?

PONYGIRL: Sounds good to me.

CJL: I'm in.

[ponygirl drags HonorH away from Giles. The four MOLOJ members huddle up.]

XANDER (to Willow): What are they doing?

WILLOW: Well...if this IS a collaborative fanfic, I think they're collaborating.

[They break the huddle.]

PONYGIRL (calling to the driver): Masq. . . STOP!

MASQ (o.s.): "Masq...stop!" You know, this is pathetic. You're writing a fanfic about the ATP board, and all you've got me doing is driving the van. Talk about-- [Pause.] Oh. Wait. I just got the metaphor. Never mind. [The van lurches to a halt.]

BUFFY: So are we going back?

ROCHEFORT: Not exactly.


[> Conclusion: "Dream's Edge" -- cjl, 00:12:26 06/05/03 Thu


[Another fifteen hours later. Southern California. The MOLOJ vans are parked on the edge of a sliver of blacktop dividing two vast stretches of desert. The Scoobies and the MOLOJ commandos disembark. A hot, dry wind skitters dust along the highway. To the left, at the far end of her vision, Caroline can see the lip of the crater that was once the town of Sunnydale. To the immediate right, there is the incongruous apparition of a child's sandbox, complete with plastic pail and shovel, complemented by a matching swing set and merry-go-round. Beyond that, Rhysdux traces the contour of a familiar ice cream truck half-buried in the sand; and off in the distance, the assembled crowd spies a tiny figure relentlessly advancing through the rippling waves of heat. It is like the landscape of another world, but they all recognize it instantly. It is the unmistakable landscape of "Restless."]

ROCHEFORT (to Giles): Are you sure about this?

GILES: Absolutely. I-I think it's best for all of us. Perhaps, when all this is over, you could rededicate your organization to teaching children about the Romany culture. [Places his hand on Rochefort's shoulder] I'm sure Jenny would appreciate it.

[Cut to: CJL and Xander.]

XANDER (to CJL): So what's it going to be?

CJL: About what?

XANDER: What you mean, "about what"? The whole "I can't imagine my life without this woman" thing. Are you going to marry her, share the house, or are you just going to snuggle into his-and-hers seats at the Mets game for the rest of your life?

CJL (uncomfortable): It's complicated

XANDER: OK. I hear that. But you gotta know that you're not always going to have her around whenever you want. I mean, you can take somebody for granted sometimes. Trust me.

[Willow steps in and holds Xander's hand.]

WILLOW (to CJL): I know it's hard. Hey, it's not like the two of us are exactly the King and Queen of stable relationships. But I guess that's what the whole MOLOJ commando thing was about anyway, huh? I'm saying. . .if you care about her, if you think she's something special, just let her know about it. And it'll go where it's gonna go.

[Xander lets go of Willow's hand, wraps an arm around her shoulder, and pulls her in close.]

XANDER: So wise and yet so unbelievably cute.

[Willow leans her head onto the side of Xander's chest. Xander kisses the top of her head. CJL beams, wallowing in the glorious X/W friendship vibe.]

[The approaching figure is now clearly visible as she tracks across the sand. It's the First Slayer.]

BUFFY (to HonorH): No, I'm telling you, it looks fantastic.

HONORH: Thanks. You have no idea how long I worked on these uniforms. Do you think it's easy getting Kevlar to look slimming?

BUFFY: Well, you pulled it off. [Pause.] You know, you're the only person
I've ever met who doesn't think fashion is an exercise for morons.

HONORH: Most people simply cannot grasp that a keen fashion sense delivers deep insights into human behavior, insights simply unavailable to less observant mortals.

BUFFY: Totally agree. The philosophical complexities of a pair of red Gucci pumps can never be overestimated.

[Buffy and HonorH smile conspiratorially.]

[The First Slayer stops at the midpoint between the scattered debris of the
Scoobies' childhood and the horizon beyond, waiting patiently on the slope of a sand dune.]

[Buffy hugs HonorH.]

BUFFY: Gotta go.

[Buffy, Willow, Xander, and Giles drift away from their new friends and stand together at the edge of the road, exchanging more in a single look than most people could say in a year's worth of conversation. They walk out into the desert, smiling, at ease with each other and at peace with the world. Buffy leads them up to the First Slayer.]

[From the pitch-black of the highway, ponygirl watches the unfolding drama with something approaching religious awe. She barely notices Joss quietly approaching her from behind. She jumps slightly as Joss speaks--in an even, friendly tone--from just over her shoulder.]

JOSS: It scared the hell out of me.

[ponygirl doesn't even turn around, keeping her eyes fixed on the desert.]

PONYGIRL: What?

JOSS: Letting go. All the dreams, the hopes, the expectations.

PONYGIRL: They don't belong to us anymore.

JOSS: No, they don't. But sometimes you wonder if you can't get along without them.

PONYGIRL: I think we'll be all right.

JOSS: Hope so.

[Joss vanishes.]

FIRST SLAYER (to BUFFY): You think you know who you are. . . what's to come.

BUFFY: I know who I am. And I'm not afraid of what's to come.

[The First Slayer glances over at Willow, Xander and Giles.]

FIRST SLAYER: No friends. Always alone.

[Tight shot on Buffy, flanked by Willow to her left, Xander to her right, with Giles standing behind her.]

BUFFY: Never alone.

[The First Slayer bows her head, then turns and starts walking back into the desert. Buffy, Willow, Xander, and Giles, in single file, follow her and slowly fade into the limitless horizon. There is a brief swirl of sand, a glint of blinding sunlight--and they're gone. The MOLOJ crew remains rooted to the spot, staring out at the empty desert for an impossibly long moment. Finally:]

CJL: I need a drink.


[> Coda: "Vancouver or Bust" -- cjl, 00:14:25 06/05/03 Thu

[HonorH, Rhysdux, cjl, ponygirl and Rochefort pile into the van, suck back some warm bottled water, and settle in for the long haul.]

ROCHEFORT: Let me get this straight. This didn't have anything to do with Joss at all. This whole scenario was created entirely from our own imaginations, and Joss was just a character in our collective fanfic.

CJL: You got it.

ROCHEFORT: But we were dealing with his characters, right?

HONORH: So?

ROCHEFORT: If we were dealing with his characters, isn't it, by definition, his universe?

PONYGIRL: Not necessarily. We didn't have to do a Buffy story. We could have done anything, gone anywhere we wanted.

RHYSDUX: Right. It could have been. . .MOLOJ goes to Paris!

[Stereotypical "French" music pipes in from God-knows-where.]

PONYGIRL: We'd have breathtaking adventures racing up the Eiffel Tower, dashing through the Louvre, driving like lunatics around the Arc de Triomphe...

HONORH: Ooh! Fashion Week with Yves St. Laurent and Givenchy.

PONYGIRL: And the Paris Sewers. There has to be the Paris Sewers. Maybe with a mysterious 300 year-old vampire who--

CJL: Nah. Sounds like a "Lizzie McGuire" movie on crack.

["French" music cuts off abruptly.]

HONORH: Party pooper.

[Exterior shot: back of the van. Camera remains stationary as the van slowly pulls away.]

RHYSDUX (v.o.): Any idea where we're going?

CJL (v.o.): I don't know. If you can drop me off, thought I'd visit some old friends around Riverside.

[Nerf Herder's BtVS theme starts up.]

ROCHEFORT (v.o.): Hey--we all have our passports, right?

HONORH (v.o.): Somewhere around here.

ROCHEFORT (v.o.): Isn't the Board Meet on Friday?

RHYSDUX (v.o.): Do you think we can make it?

ROCHEFORT (v.o.): Why not?

MASQ (v.o.): Oh sure, "why not?" YOU don't have to drive twenty-four hours a day with lousy coffee and a broken radio. YOU don't have to pay the tolls and get probed by Customs every time you cross the border. Why should I bust my butt breaking speed limits and dodging traffic cops all the way to Canada? When is somebody going to show me a little appreciation for everything I do around here?

HONORH (v.o.): There was almost no Spike in this fanfic.

[Pause.]

MASQ (v.o.): We'll be there tomorrow.

[Smash to black.]


[> [> Do I start a new threat to comment? I figured this would keep the threat alive. -- Rochefort, 00:28:32 06/05/03 Thu

That was dizzying. I stayed up till three thirty in the morning, cjl, just to see how it would end. The ending was perfect..and really...honestly.... touching. I liked having a last moment with Giles. :(

Thanks for the good work. I'll write to Paris with you, Ponygirl, Honor H, and Ryhdux any day.

Rochefort


[> [> [> Freudian slip! We need new threats to have more stories! -- Rochefort, 00:34:35 06/05/03 Thu



[> [> Freaking genius -- d'Herblay, 00:29:10 06/05/03 Thu



[> [> *loud applause and foot stamping* -- MsGiles, 05:47:37 06/05/03 Thu



[> [> Truly the greatest story ever told! -- ponygirl, 08:28:54 06/05/03 Thu

Great work cjl, and everyone! A great finish, and yes, quite touching. It was a privilege to be a part of it!

Til we next meet fictionally again - if not in Vancouver, then (must I say it?) we'll always have Paris.


[> [> *Sob!* It's so beautiful! -- HonorH, 10:17:03 06/05/03 Thu

The philosophical depth! The sheer scope and power of the storytelling! And the characters! *Swoon!*

(Not to mention their fabulous wardrobes.)

Ah, it's been an amazing joyride journey, people. Be proud!


[> [> Bravo! -- Vickie, tossing roses, 11:08:29 06/05/03 Thu

I laughed, I teared up, I got very very impatient for the final installments. Thanks for this, all of you!


[> [> Bravo! -- Vickie, tossing roses, 11:12:20 06/05/03 Thu

I laughed, I teared up, I got very very impatient for the final installments. Thanks for this, all of you!


[> [> Woohoo that was good! Now, if you were only all coming... -- dub ;o), 13:07:57 06/05/03 Thu



[> I cannot tell you how much I loved this! -- Rahael, 17:02:20 06/05/03 Thu

Well, not as much as I love Connor but you know, a lot.


[> Do it again! Do it again! That was great. -- Rowena, 17:23:38 06/05/03 Thu



[> [> I laughed! I cried! Do it again! -- mamcu, 09:05:41 06/06/03 Fri



Question that is driving me CRAZY -- Help -- Angel, 22:17:51 06/04/03 Wed

Can somebody tell me which episode of B/A they actually SHOWED the death of the Gypsy girl in? It's -plucks at tip of tongue- and summaries aren't helping. "I looked everywhere...." I know the story, obviously, but not in which tv ep the deed was done.

Can someone help?


[> An Ep of Angel, I believe -- dub, 22:54:18 06/04/03 Wed

The one that followed on the heels of "Fool for Love" on Buffy as a two-parter. It was called "Darla." However, the girl's death isn't shown just the aftermath.

From Psyche:

1898, Romania.
A ragged Angel stumbles up a hill.
Darla is standing in front of an elder of the gypsies.
Darla: "You took him from me. You stole him away. - You gave him a soul."
Gypsy: "He must suffer - as all of his victims have suffered."
Darla: "That is no justice. Whatever pain he caused to your daughter was momentary - over in an instant - or an hour. But what you've done to him will force him to suffer for the rest of eternity! Remove that filthy soul so my boy might return to me."
Dru: "Angelus is gone on away. Where is he?"
Darla grabs a hold of the Gypsy's neck: "Drusilla, the camp - go on - kill things!"
Dru: "He shall be very cross if he finds we had a lovely mass slaughter without him."
Darla closes her eyes for a moment: "He'll join us soon. Now do as you're told."
Dru licks one of her fingers and nods: "Okay."
Walks off.
Darla: "In that wagon is your family. Your wife and daughters will die tonight without my protection. (Strokes the man's cheek) but if you'll do as I say, your family can live."
Spike, in vamp face, blood on his chin, steps out of the wagon and burps. Darla looks at him.
Spike: "What?"
Darla closes her eyes, turns back to the gypsy and snaps his neck.
Dru swaying by the fire: "Pretty music, pretty, pretty music. (Spike comes up to her and she pulls him into her dance) They cry out for mercy. They cry out for mercy."
Darla walking away: "Show none."


Is that the scene you were thinking of, or was there another one?


[> Re: Question that is driving me CRAZY -- Help -- tost, 23:21:10 06/04/03 Wed

Darla gives Angel the girl at the beginning of 5x5. He bites her on the thigh. Don't know if she dies then.


[> [> Re: Question that is driving me CRAZY -- Help -- Ray, 01:46:52 06/05/03 Thu

Yeah, that episode showed her death/torture. The next season in Darla they showed the artermath.


[> [> [> Thanks, guys -- Angel, 18:58:32 06/05/03 Thu

THANK you! I knew I knew it, but I couldn't pluck it off my tongue. I've been after a screencap from that forever.

Kudos and thanks.


--A


Yeah! SF board meet big success! -- Masq, 22:34:08 06/04/03 Wed

We met at Gordon Biersch and sampled multiple home brews and tomfool's Pinot Noir and ate appetizers and nice dinners and had lots of Buffy conversation.

Nice meeting all you guys!

Pics forthcoming!


[> Have fun in BC! -- CW, 22:36:20 06/04/03 Wed



[> Thanks for arranging it, Masq! -- Veronica, 22:44:51 06/04/03 Wed



[> Re: Yeah! SF board meet big success! -- skyMatrix, 00:38:36 06/05/03 Thu

As the youngest one there and the newest newbie, I felt like the kid who has just been allowed to sit at the grown-ups table! I tried to be the witty and amusing kid, anyway. :)


[> It was fun! And the picture taking was extremely entertaining! -- deeva, 08:55:36 06/05/03 Thu



[> It was a great time. Thanks to everyone there! -- Just George, 09:00:36 06/05/03 Thu



[> OT: The book I was reading was... -- Just George, 09:10:29 06/05/03 Thu

I had to ride the train for a couple of hours to and from the SF meet, so I brought a book to read. Some of the people at the meet asked me to post about it so that they wouldn't have to write down the title or author.

The book was Lois McMaster Bujod's 'Diplomatic Immunity'. It is the latest book by Bujold staring Miles Vorkosigan.

These books are among the few that I unreservedly recommend to anyone who likes to read. If you want to start at the beginning of the series, try 'Shards of Honor' (how Miles' parents meet) or 'The Warrior's Apprentice' (Miles' first story). Bujold has won 4 Hugo's for the Vorkosigan books. She deserved them. I have enjoyed every one of her books.

-JG


[> [> Yes, wonderful meeting and errremeeting. Plus, hey, philosophical appetizers -- fresne, 14:09:30 06/05/03 Thu

Artichoke hearts ­ the heart
Garlic fries ­ errfingers for the hand and ummgarlic, breath spiritus
Chicken stakes ­ ummthere were stakes. Wood. Earth. And Chicken. Birds, flying things. (insert a little flapping hand gesture).

Okay, so maybe they aren't the chewy philosophical goodness of an Oreo cookie symbolizing the trinity. No wait, okay, they are the equivalently masticating metaphysicality ofoh, whatever. I had a great time.

And if you can't tell, Tomfool/Giles is cleaning (errr..my) glasses in the group shot. I'll try and get my somewhat more prosaic picture up this evening.

Now, then as one of those people who did the urging, yes, Lois' books are absolutely crackin. In fact, they are crack.

Buy book. Consume. Consume, fresne, consume.

Lois writes books where actions have consequences and those consequences are not always physical. Where characters evolve and change over time. And the "good guys" can be some pretty darn freaking messed up people. The main character in the on-going series, Miles Vorkosigan, is a hyperactive, manic depressive git, for whom I have an enormous crush. I mean come on, "Never do yourself what you can con an expert into doing for you." or in a later more mature mood, "The only thing that you shouldn't give up to get your heart's desire is your heart."

Unfortunately, it'll never work out between us because, you know, he's imaginary. Plus he lives like a thousand years in the future or something and on another planet.

Anyway, the villains tend to be people, who, big surprise, have their own motivations. One of my favorites being a character in the second book, Barrayar, whose vices flow from his virtues.

There's a scene in the Warrior's Apprentice that makes me cry every time I read the book. Damn evil writer. Her writing philosophy is think of the worst thing that you can do to your characters and then do it. Sound familiar?

Hey, I don't just proselytize for Buffy.

And now we return to our regular programming.

Tomfool, what was the name of your winery again? That was some perfect summer wine. All, sweetly sipping evenings on the porch, which I don't actually have, but I can pretend.

The funniest thing is how we kept introducing ourselves as net self/mundane self.

Well, no the way the beer samples all migrated to one end of the table was the funniest thing.


[> [> [> It's great to put faces with names -- tomfool, 15:58:50 06/06/03 Fri

and faces with monikers. It was pretty funny trying to figure out how to address someone whose real name you just learned when you've 'known' them only as their board name. (Although, most people quickly cracked my cleverly coded name.)

My winery is Grapeleaf Cellars and it's just off the Gilman exit in Berkeley, 805 Camelia St between 5th and 6th. Open for tasting every Sat & Sun afternoon. Ya'll are welcome to stop by. And you know what they say, everything goes better with pinot.

It was great to meet everyone and thanks to Masq for organizing!


[> [> [> The Name Game -- dub ;o), 08:24:19 06/07/03 Sat

Same here in Vancouver...everyone introduced by Board name, then real name. Some attempt made to use real name, for about 10 seconds, then everone referred to by Board name so we all know who the heck we're talkin' to!

;o)


[> [> So, question on LMB -- Masq, 14:26:55 06/05/03 Thu

Are the characters in her novels humans from Earth, or are they aliens who have never heard of Earth or something in between?


[> [> [> Re: So, question on LMB -- fresne, 16:03:16 06/05/03 Thu

Everyone is human descended from people from Earth. However, due to genetic changes, purposeful and not, we are becoming the alien. At the time that the books take place, speciation is just starting really. There's this sense that as the centuries go by human will become this ever looser term.

One of the things that LMB is really interested in is the cultural impact of technology. So, it isn't just that there is a gee wiz gadget, but how having that gadget changes things. The two biggest technologies that run through the books are ships that can travel through wormholes and uterine replicators (i.e., artificial wombs.)

What it means to connected to the greater tide of humanity. What it means to be isolated and disconnected. What happens when in the space of a generation, a world that was isolated is now exposed tothis huge universe?

In one of her stand alone books, Falling Free, there is a fairly interesting exploration of what happens when a large Corporation does an RnD investment in genetically engineering humans that can exist in free fall. It can operate outside of any political jurisdiction. Do whatever it wants. And, hey there's a lot of money to be made in space, but then, hmmtechnology is an interesting thing.

Or, in Ethan of Athos, where she writes a reverse of all of those only women societies that kept showing up in sci fi of the 70s. So, okay, you have a group of men that go off and settle this world. They hate women. Grr, Argh. Etc. Naturally, or un-naturally, all reproduction is entirely artificial. Artificial. Machines that take power and special facilities and trained techs. People to maintain the machines. People to build the machines. People to service the children growing in the machines. People to sweep the floors around the machines.

Administrators. Forms. People to produce and process and file the forms and manuals and then, okay, children. As a culture that must maintain at least 1:1 population growth, and producing children is this incredible planet wide investment, how does that culture protect that investment?What happens to a culture where reproduction and child rearing is not a hidden expense?

It's all very fun stuff and that's just the background canvas. LMB's real strength is characterization. And putting her characters through hell. In this case, metaphoric, emotional, hell.


[> Pics Pics Pics! -- Masq, 09:55:44 06/05/03 Thu

These are d'Herblays pics. I think Anneth might have others.

Pics #1
Pics #2


[> [> The money shot!! -- neaux, 10:25:48 06/05/03 Thu

I'd need to zoom in to see that actual dollar amount!! but it looks like you guys were big spenders $$!!

XD

Looked like fun! me wishes I was there.


[> [> By the way.... -- Anneth, smiling wickedly, 11:57:21 06/05/03 Thu

That first picture on the first page is everyone being a BtVS S1 character. d'H is Buffy (note the "stake"), JustGeorge is Angel (note broody stance), Fresne is Willow (note hair and demure pose), TomFool is Giles (note intellectual air), Masq is the Master (note bat-like appearance and fruit-punch mouth - oh, wait... I mean, aura of all- consuming evil), Veronica is Jonathan (because I forgot to assign her a role when I took the picture, so of *course* that means she's Jonathan!), Deeva is Cordelia (note flouncy superiority), SkyMatrix is Xander (note the direction of his moon-eyes. Acutally, I take that back. His moon-eyes seem to be directed at Masq/Master, not d'H/Buffy. Hm...). I, being the woman behind the camera, am of course Joss.

And, d'H has an awesome freaking camera.

Oh,and I think Fresne and Veronica took the other pictures; despite my amazingly complex camera-tradeoff (with my mom) during the meet, my camera had run out of batteries and I took no pictures of my own. (insert pout here.)


[> [> [> Re: By the way.... -- skyMatrix, 12:43:07 06/05/03 Thu

Arrgh this is the reason why I tried to get out of this picture... or at least be The Master myself, because I would have enjoyed camping it up. I was attempting a sideways glance but I guess that didn't quite work out the way I intended. Um, can someone Photoshop me out of it then? :P


[> [> Another pic -- fresne, 07:40:46 06/06/03 Fri

And another pic...




[> [> [> hey, not only the smartest board online, but now also THE BEST LOOKING!! -- mamcu, 09:03:31 06/06/03 Fri



[> Looks like fun - I tried to suprise you at the last minute, but just couldn't do it -- Dochawk, 13:56:14 06/05/03 Thu



Current board | More June 2003