June 2002 posts
Ways Xander Can Be More Useful... -- ZachsMind, 01:24:45 06/23/02 Sun
Back in the episode "The Zeppo," Xander felt left out. He wasn't a witch or a werewolf or a slayer. He was just a guy. This is an ongoing thing with him, although in the past season or so he hasn't seemed to act quite as unsure of himself as he used to be.
Admittedly, we know he's useful for a number of reasons, not the least of which is his stout, courageous (sometimes ignorantly brave) heart. However, if he sincerely felt the need to improve himself in ways that would help Buffy and the other, there are little things he could do in order to improve his level of assistance in the fray.
1. Actually train: They never have shown Xander training with Buffy or even taking karate classes. He just jumps into the battle, accosts a vampire or demon, and they pick him up and throw him across the room. If he actually learned a few moves he'd more than double his effectiveness in the field. He supposedly remembers military stuff from that time Ethan Rayne's magic unwittingly turned Xander into an army guy. However, he rarely ever seems to have practiced it or tried honing his skills. So his memories of that experience are little more than the equivalent of booklearning.
2. Drink Holy Water: I don't know why no M.E. writers have thought about this before. Human beings are over 90% water. The liquid we drink is what the body uses to help make blood and many other bodily fluids. If one drank several glasses of holy water a day, within a few weeks their body would contain nothing but holy water. So if a vampire tried to bite Xander, all they'd get would be the vampiric equivalent of a mouthful of hydrochloric acid. It might be diluted, but it'd at least make the blood taste bad to your common run of the mill vampire. It'd decrease the chances of Xander being turned. And he might even be able to spit at a vampire and hurt it, or piss on it? Maybe even his sweat glands would excrete holy water, so if a vampire touched him it would hurt. There's forty-two churches in Sunnydale, according to "What's My Line," surely Xander could find a source that would allow him to get a suitable supply.
3. Engineering: He's a carpenter now. He's trained himself to be able to build things with wood, both as a hobby and in his construction job. He made a cool wooden chest for Buffy's weapons in season six, but he could use a little ingenuity and build some special weapons.
Can you think of other things that a normal human like Xander could do to increase his usefulness in the battlefield against undead stuff?
[> Re: Ways Xander Can Be More Useful... -- O'Cailleagh, 01:36:25 06/23/02 Sun
Point 1- very true, Xander should train with Buffy.
Point 2- Amusing, although not likely to work, going on the principle that once the water passes through the body it is no longer holy (that is, holy in the Christian sense since the flesh is impure). Plus if it was still holy, all water on Earth would be holy by virtue of it being blessed at some point in time. (did that make sense?)
Point 3- wasn't Xander's job whittling stakes?!? Yeah, he could give weapon making a try, although I can't see a big wooden axe doing much good! Large catapults and the like might come in handy during a huge battle though.
[> +3 modifier for resistance to being turned -- Off-kilter's a dork, 02:18:06 06/23/02 Sun
[> Re: Ways Xander Can Be More Useful... -- Finn Mac Cool, 09:10:47 06/23/02 Sun
I've wondered for a long time if a person can gain increased strength and other capabilities by drinking vampire blood (without being bitten). Maybe Xander could become more of a butt kicker if he bled vamps before staking them.
Also, why not fill up the darts in the tranquilizer gun with holy water. One good shot, and a vampire burns up from the inside.
[> Re: Ways Xander Can Be More Useful... -- Corwin of Amber, 09:56:24 06/23/02 Sun
Holy water ballons and a slingshot. Or a supersoaker filled with holy water, Xander could take out a whole nest of vamps.
Yes, the idea is from the 'The Lost Boys.'
[> Why Angel Investigations team smarter than Scoobies... (spoilery) -- Scroll, 09:59:35 06/23/02 Sun
Here is one area in which the Angel Investigations team is way smarter than the Scoobies. Xander, Anya, and Dawn don't have any real powers like Buffy, Willow, Tara, and Spike. They can pick up an axe and hack away but no super powers to help defend themselves. They should take their cue from the AI women.
Cordelia is vision-girl and has been made half-demon. She has cool powers now. But even before her demonisation, she convinced Angel to train her with sword and self-defence. She accepts the fact that "menfolk not always around to save womenfolk" and when she is targeted by a misogynistic abuser, she goes off by herself to kick demon butt. And Fred is a scientist who builds cool weapons even under stress (witness her flying fire extinguisher that saved her from possessed Wesley). So yeah, AI team definitely more creative than Scoobies.
[> [> way smarter??? (SPOILERS) -- Robert, 22:29:16 06/23/02 Sun
>> "Here is one area in which the Angel Investigations team is way smarter than the Scoobies. "
Currently, the Angel Incorporated team consists of exactly two people; Gunn and Fred. Angel is stuck at the bottom of the ocean. Cordelia is stuck ... where ever. Lorne is in Las Vegas and Wesley is persona non grata. Gunn and Fred currently have no clue as to what has happened. Is this the mark of a team that is "way smarter"? At this point, I don't even see a team.
[> [> [> I didn't say they were smart in all areas! ; ) -- Scroll, 01:16:51 06/24/02 Mon
Yeah, okay, so the AI team consists of two people right now, everything's gone to hell in a really big handbasket. I'm just saying in terms of the *steps* they took in actually fighting evil this past season is better than anything Xander's done. Not that the Scoobies aren't smart : ) just that Cordelia and Fred really take initiative in protecting themselves instead of relying on the big strong men to do it for them.
[> [> [> [> Re: I didn't say they were smart in all areas! (SPOILERS) -- Robert, 14:02:32 06/25/02 Tue
>> "... instead of relying on the big strong men to do it for them."
So ... which "big stong men" where you speaking of?
and from your first posting;
>> "Xander, Anya, and Dawn don't have any real powers like Buffy, Willow, Tara, and Spike."
Anya is a teleporting vengeance demon, and you don't think that counts a real power?
[> Do you think... -- ZachsMind, 17:10:22 06/23/02 Sun
Do y'all think if the M.E. writers gave Xander some kind of special powers, it would diminish his real place in the Scooby gang from a perspective of storytelling? Xander presently represents the Everyman: the normal Joe who finds out his world is in much more trouble than other average Joes assume, and does his best to make things right without the advantage of any special abilities whatsoever.
If he suddenly woke up one day and had weird powers, would that make him somehow, irrelevant? Is he more special by being the only Scooby who isn't special in any way?
Great. Now I'm playing Devil's Advocate to my own post! LOL!
[> [> Re: Do you think... -- Corwin of Amber, 21:41:15 06/23/02 Sun
Personally, I've always liked the concept of Xander as the average joe, who's just trying to do the best he can, while faced with some very weird and scary circumstances. It might be fun to give Xander some sort of special powers for one ep, just to explore what Mr. Average Joe would do with them. Would he become as drunk on power as Willow, or would he be too afraid to use them?
[> [> [> Re: Do you think... -- Rendyl, 08:36:51 06/24/02 Mon
**Personally, I've always liked the concept of Xander as the average joe, who's just trying to do the best he can, while faced with some very weird and scary circumstances.**
Xander is like this little island of sane in a huge sea of insanity. Everyone around him is weird in some way and I have always felt that he acted like an anchor of sorts. He is always there to say what the others need to hear when they need to hear it. He may not save the world every weekend but I think he is what makes it possible for Buffy and the others to save it. Buffy is told at one point that she is just a girl which is true and not true. But for Xander he -is- just a guy and yet he makes a difference in the world around him.
I don't care for the fanfic stories where Xander is given all these great powers. (I understand them - watching Xander get smashed around is painful and frustrating at times) I think giving him supernatural powers would diminish his importance and his contributions. When he says (possibly paraphased)-
"Cavalry's here. Cavalry is a frightened guy with a rock...."
For me that is the essence of Xander. A scared guy who knows he may not make it but he is there anyway because a friend needs him.
-Ren
[> [> [> [> I think... -- Forsaken, 19:12:07 06/24/02 Mon
Yes, it is Xander's place to be the normal guy. The human being with no super-strength and very little magical proficiency. What bugs me is the fact that he has as of yet never been shown learning how to fight. He can take an axe and swing it, but not with the skill Buffy or Spike can. He knows how to throw one or two simple punches, but he doesn't seem to know how to DUCK or BLOCK. Cordelia was normal when Angel started teaching her to fight with fists and sword. Xander should start learning now.
[> [> drinking holy water and peeing it out is sort of of an everyman sort of power. -- Rochefort, 21:18:29 06/24/02 Mon
BB speculation for season 7 - very unlikely, but one can dream -- Off-kilter, 02:16:21 06/23/02 Sun
Take big grain of salt, cross fingers, wish REALLY hard!
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Dru! She comes back, tempting soul-man Spike to betray Buffy & SG who will have nothing to do with him. Buffy will have issues with killing her when reminded that the Love-O-Her-Life created this creature almost whole-cloth and that Dru is the most tragic figure ever made in the Buffyverse. Also, Dru's insane not stupid. She could really go to town imitating "Daddy" and tormenting each Scoobie . . . Xander in chains? Hmmmm. . . .
Totally unpredictable what she would want, what she would do, or even why she's doing it. Delicious, delicious, yum, yum!
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No one loves me! -- Off-kilter- weeping profusely *sob*, 02:53:42 06/23/02 Sun
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It's nothing personal against you of course... -- ZachsMind, 03:18:14 06/23/02 Sun
I just personally have little to no interest in seeing Drusilla on BtVS again. Angel maybe. I don't watch Angel much. Cordelia. Wesley. Angel. Dru. Faith. The characters I don't personally like much went to "Angel." Xander. Willow. Spike. Anya. Giles. The characters I actually like hang out on "Buffy." *shrug*
So your suggestion of Dru being a BB for Buffy is a valid one, but I just can't jump on your bandwagon for ya. Maybe if Dru showed up once during season seven, but I only want to see that if Buffy gives her a good solid "no deposit no return" kinda death. =)
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Don't post in the early hours of Sunday morning! -- Rahael, 05:33:20 06/23/02 Sun
and expect an avelaunche of replies! lol
As for your Dru idea, intriguing. They did exactly the same thing last season with Dru coming back and tempting Spike.
Got to disagree with Zach'smind. Least favourite characters on Angel? some of my favourite characters went to Angel!
My favourite character on BUffy is Buffy. And Giles.....but then he left too! It was always Angel, Cordelia and Wesley who were the others on Buffy who I liked. Dead Man's Party just never allowed me to look at Willow and Xander in the same way again. Yeah, I hold grudges. Specially since Buffy refuses to!!!
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Off-Kilter I like your idea but I am not up the late/early! -- Liana, 05:50:41 06/23/02 Sun
I loved your post on comics. It was very good. I also like the idea of Drusilla coming back. I think she would be the one character that would cause serious angst for newly souled Spike. I also like the characters on Angel. Gotta love that Wesley this season!
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Time zone differences -- Off-kilter, 14:30:16 06/23/02 Sun
Since I'm stationed in Japan, it was neither early or late. Twas about 6:30 PM 'round here, but I knew I was risking quick archiving. Ah, well. Just a wild hair anyway.
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Re: OT Time zone differences -- aliera, 15:26:31 06/23/02 Sun
Stationed in Japan...is that why nom de plume? Do you get Buffy there somehow? Is it popular?
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Re: OT Time zone differences -- Off-kilter, 16:40:05 06/23/02 Sun
Nope. Nope. Nope, unfortunately.
The name is because, well, it's me! Got addicted to Buffy last Nov in states with FX repeats of WAH/Initiative. Got intrigued, got on 'net, sucked up all 5.5 seasons in 3 month timeframe. A sad but common story among us aficionados led down the primose path to this wretched obsession. Stationed in Japan during re-run time in April. Everyone here has two reactions to my need for a Buffy fix: either they groan and give a patronizing grin at my bubble-headedness, or they go, "Buffy's over. Didn't she die?" They're an entire season behind here, and no support groups available.
Even worse, the movers broke my computer and my replacement is lost in the mail. Only have access to 'net at work and for some reason they expect me to actually WORK while I'm here! Have only seen a few downloads of season 6 since April. Live for wildfeed, this board, and email from crazies like me.
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Re: OT Time zone differences -- aliera, 17:45:30 06/23/02 Sun
It's hard. My brother in law shipped back in April (he's in the Rangers) but while he was gone I was downloading, printing and mailing on a daily basis to him...do you post at the C&S too? I ask because there's a poster there who is stationed in Japan also.
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One of many crazy kooks -- Off-kilter, 19:15:58 06/23/02 Sun
I have posted on C&S, but there are at least 2 others out here in Japan: one_by_one & gadget. They just aren't anywhere near me! C&S is also great, but I can't keep up with it due to the aforementioned lack of 'net time. They just keep churnin' and burnin'. I am too silly for this board, not zany enough for that one, but ya can't stop me now!
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OT Time differences -- Rahael, 02:49:24 06/24/02 Mon
I'm in London. The morning is getting old here, but it's the early hours in America, where most of the posters post. I still post of course but won't get responses until much later.
Now threads - all my threads died ignominious deaths (all 3 of them) whatever time they were posted.
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London fog, Yokosuka haze -- Off-kilter, 03:28:05 06/24/02 Mon
Sun is settin'
night draws nigh
I sit here frettin'
Just who am I?
Was trying to come up with some deep thoughts that can be made from looking at the range of minds, personalities, experiences and insights on this board, but all I could think of was my stupid poem.
Every post of yours that I have read has deepened my awareness of the world and given me new perspectives to appreciate. I'm a fan. Ok, that's all I had to say!
19:26 here in the Empire of the Sun.
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Re: London fog, Yokosuka haze -- Rahael, 05:13:55 06/24/02 Mon
awwwwwwww.
I can repay the compliment without any bias whatsoever!!!
Like your subject line by the way.
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Arctic sun -- matching mole, 08:13:35 06/24/02 Mon
This is really a different topic but it does relate to Buffy in remote parts of the world. Last week I had the priviledge of watching part of 'Welcome to the Hellmouth' north of the arctic circle in the Northwest Territories (that's in Canada). I don't remember which night it was but I was either in Inuvik or Fort McPherson. The Whedonverse seemed to pursue me throughout my vacation. The Edmonton Journal (I was in Edmonton before heading even further north) had long articles on some local actor who is starring in 'Firefly' (Nathan something I think) and an interview with SMG re 'Scooby Do'.
Being a vampire in the arctic would be rough. Constant daylight for months on end would really cramp your style.
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Re: Icelandic nights -- aliera, 08:53:34 06/24/02 Mon
But on the flip side...when i was in Reykjavik after June 21 the nights got increasing longer until by December 21 there was 3 hours of dusk (calling it dusk is probably a kindness) and the rest of the night was pitch black...much time for vamp fun...Iceland also has at least one Hellmouth!
I like both boards too for different things...here there's often time to develope a thought (not that I have many) whereas the C&S there's more of the feel of actually conversing with others...both good places.
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Re: BB speculation for season 7 - very unlikely, but one can dream -- Dochawk, 08:04:49 06/23/02 Sun
I think there is a real likelihood of Dru coming back. But Buffy having a tough time killing her? Not a chance. If for no other reason than Dru killed Kendra. And she's an unleashed vamp, she would have no guilt feelings whatsoever.
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Diabolical Plans -- Finn Mac Cool, 09:06:07 06/23/02 Sun
That's where Drusilla falls short: she doesn't seem to have much of a capacity to plan things.
Maybe Dru could come back with a new boy toy who does all the evil plotting while she proceeds to torment everyone.
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Re: Diabolical Plans -- O'Cailleagh, 10:47:56 06/23/02 Sun
Ok, a partner for Dru...um, Dracula? That I would love to see....and whatever happened to the Master's bones after Buffy smashed them? What if Drac and Dru were to perform the revivification ritual and bring him back? Now there's a scary trio!
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That would fit in well with the "going back to the beginning" theme -- Dariel, 15:17:23 06/23/02 Sun
Meaning going back to vampires as the Big Bad. Or at least the LB. And I'm sure Spike wouldn't like seeing Dru with "that poncy bugger"!
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Actually been thinking she'd be a good little b (spec inside) -- shadowkat, 13:59:54 06/23/02 Sun
This is my whole Dru scenerio:
Dru comes back as part of the BB. She's the little Bad
like Season 2. She captures Xander and Dawn. Spike saves
them. Big agnst, because to do so he must kill Dru.
But here's the thing - Dru may have been just a henchman.
Or and cjl came up with this idea when we discussed it on the B C & S board several months ago: Dru vamps Xander
and Xander becomes the BB.
Personally I think...it will be someone who looks like a formerly beloved character manipulating people.
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Re: shadowkat's spec -- aliera, 15:23:02 06/23/02 Sun
And we also have Cecily/Halfrek handy...and where's Harmony? We could set up quite a bevy of ex's for the dear boy (just in case the soul thing isn't torment enough)...seriously though I'd love to see Dru back.
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Re: Actually been thinking she'd be a good little b (spec inside) -- Jane's Addiction, 18:40:19 06/23/02 Sun
cjl came up with this idea when we discussed it on the B C & S board several months ago: Dru vamps Xander
and Xander becomes the BB.
Oooh. I know it isn't terribly likely, but I do love this notion. Especially given Xander's attitude toward Spike over the years. Spike finally gets his soul back and Xander loses his. But what would a VampXander sired by the wonderfully unstable Dru be like? Oh, the possibilities!
Regardless, it would be nice to bring Dru back - she and Spike always had such great chemistry. Slightly OT, but I just got around to watching one of the featurettes on the season 2 DVD with JL and JM talking about their characters. It's just too funny and sweet seeing them with their distinctly American accents getting all excited talking about acting together.
David Greenwalt (?), DVDs, dates, doors and UPN eps -- Cydney, 07:48:48 06/23/02 Sun
Sorry to combine questions/thoughts/comments, but have several.
David Greenwalt made an offhand comment in his commentary on the S.2 DVD of Reptile Boy we should wait - maybe Xander will end up with Buffy someday. I hope not, personally, but wonder what ME has up their sleeves.
Dates: In Halloween, Buffy and Willow are looking at the watcher diaries and comment that Angel was still human in 1775. It has been pointed out before that ME didn't get all the dates correct, and this is an example. [Conflicts with this season's Angel/Holtz backstory, too.]
Has anyone else noticed that the Summers' residence back and front doors have changed the direction they open several times during the series? Maybe they had to keep replacing them after the monsters broke them down...
Why is UPN skipping the Life Serial ep (a great ep) in favor of All the Way, which was moderately boring? But, watch Buffy face when Anya is going on about her engagement to Xander ... is Buffy thinking of Angel (yep)??
[> Re: David Greenwalt (?), DVDs, dates, doors and UPN eps -- Dochawk, 08:01:50 06/23/02 Sun
Well since David Greenwaldt has nothing to do with Buffy anymore (and little to do with Angel since he is going on to Miracles), I wouldn't get my hopes up to high about Xander. Unless they mean to end the series with them together, which I doubt.
[> Re: David Greenwalt (?), DVDs, dates, doors and UPN eps -- LeeAnn, 08:07:15 06/23/02 Sun
Why is UPN skipping the Life Serial ep (a great ep) in favor of All the Way, which was moderately boring?
Pushing Dawn. I think Dawn will be more and more central to most episodes next season.
Maybe UPN believes that the actors are irrelevant. That if Joss is in charge of the story it doesn't matter who the actors are. Maybe they believe that Joss can build a successful spin-off around MT as easily as around, say, James Marster and that MT is bound to be cheaper.
[> Re: David Greenwalt (?), DVDs, dates, doors and UPN eps -- Majin Gojira, 15:54:27 06/23/02 Sun
"David Greenwalt made an offhand comment in his commentary on the S.2 DVD of Reptile Boy we should wait - maybe Xander will end up with Buffy someday. I hope not, personally, but wonder what ME has up their sleeves."
What ME always has up there sleeves, Gloom and Doom.
" ... is Buffy thinking of Angel (yep)??"
This says SOO much, now don't it? Just thought I'd mention that little tidbit.
On the B/X Subject - it would make perfect sense, but, like all past relationships, there'd hafta be a bad aspect about it.
BtVS' relationships are always double edged swords. Some like them, then suffer through the horrible breakups that follow. Others, Hate the relationship and CHEER when they fall appart.
Either way, the audience is happy for a short period of time.
[> Will Buffy end up with Xander? -- ZachsMind, 18:02:08 06/23/02 Sun
I've thought a bit about the plot arc between Buffy & Xander. I'm personally not much of a "shipper" and have been known to get in trouble on other boards because people mistake my defensiveness as a "plotter" fan of shows like Buffy. I think shippers miss the point sometimes and lobby or pressure writers of tv shows into doing romantic storylines even when they don't make sense from a plotter's perspective, because the writers think the whole audience wants to see romantic relationships go a certain way, when in reality it's just a vocal minority. I'm explaining this as a preface to this message. I don't wanna get in trouble again. =) The following statements are not to be intended as a slight against fans who consider themselves Buffy/Angel shippers or whatever, and I'm also not trying to encourage Buffy/Xander shippers. This is just how I see it at the moment objectively, from a plotter's perspective.
Buffy loved Angel. She probably still does. However, due to the curse and many other factors, their relationship has been star-crossed from the very beginning. Now that they're on separate shows and networks, it's not feasible to consider that their relationship will move any farther than it has and that is perhaps for the best.
After Angel, the writers felt Buffy needed to experience a couple 'normal' relationships with normal guys. That's where Parker came in. Angel was a vampire with a soul. Parker was basically a human without a soul (figuratively speaking). As Willow put it, he's "Id Boy" using high cerebral functions and even rationalizing to himself that he's connecting with women on a higher level, when actually he was just submitting himself to The Pleasure Principle. He used Buffy in a very human but also very amoral way, which to some makes him more of a monster than Angel/Angeles ever could be.
Riley was basically a cross between Xander and Marvel Comics' Captain America. An unwitting guinea pig for Professor Walsh's experimentation on human physiology and psychology. I've gone back and watched some fourth season episodes. When we first meet Riley he's actually more interested in Willow than in Buffy, because left to his own devices, Riley is more attracted to brains than he is looks. He refers to Buffy as "Willow's friend" and tells his fellow Initiative cronies that he thinks she's "peculiar." It's not until the episode "The Initiative" that he starts taking a liking to Buffy. Walsh & Buffy have an altercation where Buffy accuses Walsh of showing no humanity to Willow's plight over Oz. Walsh turns to Riley as Buffy storms out. There is a pause there, and then in a very pointed and curious way, Walsh says "I like her." We learn later in the season that Riley has been one of Walsh's guinea pigs. Later in the same episode, Riley hears Parker refer to Buffy as a bitter joke, comparing her to a toilet seat. Riley responds by punching Parker in the face, which we learn is very uncharacteristic of him. I think Walsh conditioned Riley subtly to "like her." Riley may have never been attracted to Buffy without Walsh's assistance. So their entire relationship, though helpful in some ways to both Buffy & Riley, was instigated artificially via Walsh.
After Parker, Buffy had seen a pattern in her own life. "Open your heart to someone, and he bails on you." Riley did pretty much the same thing in season five. First she caught him doing the bloodletting thing with whore vamps. Then he left her for the military.
And then there's Spike. Spike left Harmony, but then who wouldn't leave Harmony? Spike claims Drusilla left him, but she did so because her premonitions told her he was going to fall in love with Buffy. As far as Dru was concerned, Spike had already left her before Spike realized it himself. He claims to have been with Dru for most of a century, but from what we've seen their relationship would have been at best 'turbulent.' Buffy's looking for a man who won't love her and leave her, but in Spike she found a man she could love and then leave. Someone to whom she could do what has been done to her. A vague form of unconscious vengeance. Spike was willing, but he's also the enemy, so on the outset *using* him didn't seem bad. How can doing bad be bad if you're doing it to a bad man? We've learned though that Spike isn't really all bad. He's just amoral, but he's learning. Buffy could no longer continue the relationship because she realized it was hurting him, and she's been there. So she tried to do for Spike what she failed to do for Riley: cut him off and make it quick.
Who's the one man in Buffy's life to whom Buffy has opened her heart and the guy still hasn't left? Who's been there when she needed him, through thick & thin? She wants someone who won't love her and leave her, or so she claims. Xander would never leave Buffy. Unlike his relationship with Anya, Xander would be willing to do anything for Buffy without reservation. It's ironic that Buffy doesn't find that the least bit attractive. She sees him as "a big brother."
Faith once asked Buffy if she's ever been with Xander sexually. She responded that she does love him but she doesn't *love* him. Faith didn't see the relevance. Buffy claims to want what's good for her, but it's standing right there in front of her and she turns away from it. Xander's the kinda guy a woman hopes to someday settle down with, but Buffy's not ready to settle down. Xander's nice. Xander's stable. Xander's never really going to become something adventurous and amazing. He's normal. A life with him would one day be a life of two kids, a two door garage and a picket fence. Will Buffy end up with Xander? That depends on the writers of M.E. of course, but it also depends on the character of Buffy herself. Will she play it safe or will she continue to set herself up for a fall?
[> [> Wow, Very articulate. Don't worry, you aint gonna get in trouble for this inightful Post -- Majin Gojira, 18:34:42 06/23/02 Sun
[> [> Re: Will Buffy end up with Xander? -- Dochawk, 14:13:40 06/24/02 Mon
Not a particular fan of Xanders, and doubt that Buffy will play it that safe. Also depends on the relationship Anya has with Buffy, because if they remain friends Buffy would never do it, but a large part of me hopes this will be the way the show ends. It would send a much better message than if she ends up with a reformed Spike. That is that the truest love is the one which makes you the best of yourself, that its mature, not fireworks. Exactly the opposite of what Spuffy represents.
The ATPo Asylumverse Consortium & Fictionary Corner Present --- A BtVS Novel -- OnM, 20:04:29 06/23/02 Sun
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~~~ Chapter 0 ~~~
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It's easier not to be wise
and measure these things by your brains
I sank into Eden with you
Alone in the church by and by
I'll read to you here, save your eyes
You'll need them, your boat is at sea
Your anchor is up, you've been swept away
and the greatest of teachers won't hesitate
to leave you there, by yourself, chained to fate
I alone love you
I alone tempt you
I alone love you
Fear is not the end of this!
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~~~ lyrics by Edward Kowalczyk ~~~
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[> *** Chained to Fate *** ............ A BtVS Novel ......... Chapter One -- OnM, 20:15:24 06/23/02 Sun
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Chained to Fate ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~ Chapter 1 ~~~~~~~
"I see the appeal, really I do, sweetie".
Terry closed the bathroom door behind her and walked across the bedroom, bare feet padding softly across
the carpet.
"No, you don't, really." Owen turned away from the scene on the TV screen briefly, pausing to admire his
wife's elegant form only lightly concealed in the thin bathrobe as Terry stopped by the nightstand to punch
in the wakeup setting for the alarm. "But that's OK. Why do you keep obsessing over this? It's not an
argument that can be decided with logic. Art isn't that easily deconstructed."
"Of course it can, and I'm not obsessing."
There was a long pause, then a soft rustling sound as Terry slipped out of the robe and sat down on the
edge of the bed. Sliding open the nightstand drawer, she rummaged briefly, her hand emerging a few
seconds later clutching a rather substantial looking book.
"And since when do I obsess, other than when we're working? I get paid rather well to obsess then, so I
consider it my solemn duty." She pivoted gracefully, bringing her legs up onto the mattress, and then
stretched out in a semi-seated position, the remaining hand dextrously plumping up the pillows to support
her back and shoulders. Reaching up to click on an overhead reading lamp, she flicked open the book to a
previously marked page, and adjusted her glasses. "Ahh. Been waiting for him to get to the point. I've been
plodding through this to the tune of"-- a glance at the top right corner of the text, and a brief grimace--
"God! Over 275 pages and finally he's going to tell me what all this drivel about 'phase resonances
and the gravity wells of hyper-dimensional transections' is leading up to. How much you want to bet
nowhere, big time? Why can't theoreticians write like normal people?"
"Irony, much?" Owen tried not to laugh out loud, and failed for a few seconds, but regained his composure
quickly. Terry seemed to ignore the apparent dig, and replied in an even and controlled tone without taking
her eyes off the text.
"You know very well what I mean. People who are too busy trying to be clever, and end up not
communicating clearly." She flipped a page, then reached overhead and touched up the position of the
light. "Where are Joe Sagen and Bart Asimoff when you need them, huh? Boy, do I miss those guys." A
pause stretched on for a few beats, as Owen returned his attention to the screen, then she continued.
"Achh... incredible. Honey... just listen to this poop, it's so absurdly overanalyzed..."
"Hold on a minute Ter-- they're getting to the good part now."
The speakers flanking the TV panel suddenly flared with a burst of sound as an action scene began to play
out on the screen. A sleek, but nicely-muscled, dark-haired young woman seemed to be engaged in a fight
to the death with several creatures rather obviously not of human origin; all scaly green skin and pincer-like
crab-claws for hands, the latter of which swung out viciously at the girl, who deftly ducked and twisted
away just in time to escape getting slashed. A thin, wiry blond male character who had apparently been
knocked out a half-minute ago came back to life just in time to throw the girl a sword, and she quickly
began to dispatch the creatures with athletic abandon. Owen looked back over at his spouse, sighed deeply,
and reached for the remote. Thumbing the volume down key, he reduced the grunts, arrggs and flashy
music down to a background mutter. His eyes were twinkling, and after redepositing the remote unit on the
nightstand to his side of the bed, he leaned slowly back against the headboard, his gaze never leaving the
form of his wife's nude body reclining with such apparent casualness beside him, still engrossed in her
'research', or at least sincerely pretending to do so.
"Well," said Owen, "now you're sublimating the obsession into distraction." His slight smile widened
slightly more, and his voice rose a few notches in a tone of mock disappointment. "I strongly resent this
tactic. It's the fourth act, time to pound the big bad of the week into a bloody pulp and save the day for
humankind yet again."
Terry blinked, but otherwise continued her visual embrace of the tome at hand, replying to her husband
without turning her head.
"Yep. Same as it ever was. Every week a new foe, every week the good guys--". She paused a second for
emphasis, then, "or girls, in your case-- win. Not very realistic. Sorry. I understand the escape modality,
but it's so repetitive. Just for once, why can't we have a little depth to the procedings? A little metaphor,
possibly? Maybe the happy heroine of the hour could have a few flaws to make her more human. Wouldn't
that be a pleasant change?" She finally turned to look at him, her face scrunched into her best pedantic
countenance, but there was the hint of wanton glee lurking in the eyes behind the gold-framed lenses.
"Humm? Wouldn't that be so? And by the way, what happened to 'TV, volume down'?"
He reached over and smoothed the hair back behind her ear, stroked her cheek softly with the palm of his
hand. She gave a slight shiver, and folded the book down on her lap. "Humm? You're the emotive,
right-brain artsy one here, how would you write the script? Maybe give her a family, friends, not be the
'lone warrior'? Have her fail to save somebody one time, and then agonize over her failure?"
Owen began to laugh. "Ter, it's a TV show. For heaven's sake, she's an icon. The battles are symbolic as it
is. You fantasize, get the adrenaline going, you lose yourself for an hour."
"Actually, 52 minutes, with the sales spots. Gotta get them in, oh yes. 'Windows-X makes it shine!!'" she
beamed, parroting the spokesmodel perfectly, grinning idiotically at him. Her sweet laughter broke free in a
sudden cascade, and he began to melt inside, as he always did when she disarmed him this way.
"And the voice remote still needs work. It keeps raising the volume even when I say 'down'. I don't know
why, all the other commands work..."
"Humph. Some field kinetics engineer you are. I may have to reconsider my alliances in our current
endeavor."
Terry picked up the book from her lap, closed the cover, and laid it back on her nightstand. Rearranging
the pillows, she slid down from the half-seated position and rolled over to one side. "Or... maybe not," she
teased, beckoning him with her smiling eyes. Owen followed suit, quickly mirroring her new position, and
they pulled closer together.
"That could come off, you know", she smirked, tugging at the T-shirt he was wearing. "I seem to be
somewhat ahead of you in that department." Owen pretended to look annoyed at having to move from the
lateral mode back into a momentary sit-up, but then he suddenly rolled off the bed, stood up, and removed
both upper and lower garments. Plopping back down on the bed, and returning to the previous
configuration, he placed one hand solidly against the small part of Terry's back and pressed her closer to
him.
"There now, any additional commands, my demanding mistress? Are we equal again?"
Terry reached up and removed her glasses, twisting slightly over on her back to hastily drop them down
next to the book, and then returning to Owen, moved in to kiss him. The kiss was soft at first, then
gradually more passionate as her arms and legs began to entwine with his. As they slowly lost themselves
in increasing fervor, the credits began to roll by on the TV screen mounted to the wall across from the foot
of the bed. The 11:00 'Action News" program host began blathering on just as the final show credits
closed up shop, the dramatic opening theme music of the news report sounding inconguously muffled and
lumpy at it's reduced sound level as a visual parade of police actions, fires and assorted mayhem flashed on
one after another. Terry calmly unfolded herself from Owen's embrace, and moved her body up and over
to straddle him at the hips, her hands momentarily reaching over her shoulders and behind her neck to
settle her smooth blond mane so that it spilled luxuriously down her back, then returning them frontwards
to steady herself over him.
"There is just one more thing, my sweet slave. Can we lose that now? Not the kind of action I'm thinking
about for this very moment... are you?"
Owen, mostly lost in thinking how he never got tired of looking at her this way, nodded slightly, and
focusing his mind only just enough to clearly enunciate "TV, off, please" to the room, was
rewarded by a faint relay click and the subsequent cessation of sound and light from the display. He looked
up from Terry's torso to meet her gaze and chuckled aloud at the deliberate eye-roll she affected as soon
as they re-made visual contact. She sighed, bemused.
"Men. And their toys."
"Hey, I thought you liked my toys!"
She altered the latitude of her hips a few degrees southward, and received a very gratifying 'uhummmph'
from her spouse in return. The room had settled into ambient quiet with the TV off; the sounds of London
far enough away outside to provide only a faint, and easily forgotten reminder of the presence of the rest of
humanity.
"Some of your toys are quite excellent, my love. Of this there is no doubt".
***
They moved together with increasing fluidity; energy into the system; and the defeat of entropy certain.
The moment arrives, the soft then louder cry, the peak of the wave, the slow sweet relaxation back to the
ground state. The two lovers fall apart, and drift off to sleep, the hours pass.
***
A few minutes past 3:00 AM, and Terry wakes suddenly, sitting bolt upright as if an electric current had
suddenly surged through her body, eyes wide open, bearing a startled, but not frightened look.
She feels her heart pounding in her chest, and her breath is slowing steadily from it's initial primal gasp
upon waking. Owen twitches, then groans at the disturbance, but slowly rouses himself. Terry, her own
bearings quickly restoring themselves, swings her legs over the edge of the bed, sits up, then stands after a
brief pause and starts to cross the floor to the bedroom door and the hallway beyond. Owen sits up, and
watches her form disappear through the doorway, as thin straight ribbons of grey moonlight from the
hallway window trace shifting lines over her curves.
He gets up slowly. There is no hurry; he knows exactly where his friend, his lover and his muse will be
going. He picks up the rumpled T-shirt and shorts from the chair they were thrown upon just a few
passionate hours ago, sleepily pulls them on, and goes out into the hallway, following it and then the
curving carpeted stairs down into the living room. He walks into the kitchen, very slightly more awake
now, and opens the refrigerator door. Blinking repeatedly until his eyes adapt to the the sudden onset of
bright light, he roots around for maybe a quarter-minute, finally pulling out two bottles of lime flavored
mineral water. Opening one, and placing the other on the nearby counter, he takes several good swallows
before turning back to close the refrigerator door. The light from the fridge folds away as the door swings
shut, leaving the paler moonlight spilling on the floor in it's place. He stands with his back pressed against
the cabinet adjacent to the fridge, looking out the kitchen window at the moon, nearly full, as the final
percentange of sleep drifts away, and full mental focus returns. He watches the pale orb in timeless wonder
for several long minutes, then turns to pick up the second bottle of water, and heads back upstairs. The
hallway leads him back past the bedroom door and to a smaller, much older-looking door up to what once
was an attic space, but is now what he always thinks of as 'Terry's Aerie'.
Climbing the narrow and creaky old wooden stairs, his eyes clear the horizon of the upper landing, and he
slows a bit as his feet carry him over the last few steps. As expected, Terry is sitting, still completely nude,
in a modern drafting chair in front of an ancient looking and unusually large and tall wooden desk pushed
up tight against a large bay window looking out over the street. She is writing furiously, by hand, on sheets
of pale blue quadrille paper. As he walks quietly over to the desk, and places the bottle of water softly
down on the glass-covered desktop to the right of her right arm, he sees rows upon rows of equations
rapidly filling the page, symbols flowing out from under her fingers as if they were possessed.
He used to avoid speaking when he first saw her do this, afraid he would break her concentration, but soon
learned that it really was like a 'possession' of some kind-- whatever unfathomable ghostly savant took
over her mind at these moments, it was like she was watching it happen as well. It had frightened him at
the outset, but she seemed as mentally stable as ever once the 'ghost' left her haunt and the 'normal' genius
that was his mate returned.
"Are you OK?" he finally asked, as the mad scribblings began to slow down and become more staccato.
She responded with an unexpected hardness in her voice. "You always ask that, and yes, as always, I'm
OK."
Owen moved back just slightly, hurt and trying not to give that away. The writing stopped, and Terry, after
a long beat, turned to look at him. "I'm sorry. I know this still wigs you out, but..." She leaned back in the
chair, hands reaching up to reflexively rub her eyes and forehead, and then sighed deeply and slowly. "I'm
sorry. It's just-- it's so-- freaking intense." Another long beat. "I didn't mean to snap at you, you know
that, right? OK?"
He reached over to the water bottle, and handed it to her. Several drops from the condensation on the
outside of the cold bottle rolled down the side of the glass surface and dripped off as he moved it,
splashing onto her thigh as she reached out a hand to take the offering. She shivered at the abrupt
sensation, and then began to laugh.
"God, what would I do without you?"
She raised the bottle and took several long drafts from it, then moved it to the other hand so that she could
place her right arm around Owen's waist, pulling him in next to her by the chair. She looked over at the
sheets of paper, three of them, all nearly filled with numbers and symbols that would still be staggeringly
arcane to even 90% of the world's most talented physicists, but not to her and Owen. It was now three
years into their professional relationship, and one year into their personal one, and everything they had
hoped to accomplish in both seemed to be blossoming at an incredible rate.
"Be a lonely genius?"
Terry smiled. "You got that right, oh yes you do." She bent back over the desk. "Look at these, Owen. I
can't believe I didn't see this before." She shook her head slowly, caught up in the clear moment of
epiphany. "This is it. It is the oscillation constants, I was so sure, but Walsh insisted
it was the temporal phasing, and her figures seemed right, but there was something-- I just couldn't
find the damned flaw in her reasoning, but I knew it was there. I just knew it"
Owen was busily scanning over the equations on the second paper as his wife was speaking, and as the
numbers started to drop into place among the other ones already etched in memory from countless
previous theoretical explorations, he felt the gooseflesh start to rise on his arms, and the shock at knowing
that she was right. He didn't have her instinctual grasp of the abstruse math and physics involved, his gift
was in making the math corporeal, in designing and building the machinery that made the vapors of theory
into solid, practical reality. But he knew enough to know that she had done it. He had always been
in awe of her, but this was beyond awe. Staring him in the face was the key to a realm of possibly endless
quantum universes lying hidden from view, but no less real than the one they lived and breathed in now.
The finest minds on the planet had been trying fruitlessly for six long years to open a stable
interdimensional portal, a doorway to a countless number of alternate worlds, worlds of countless
possibilities and knowledge. Other worlds that could be brighter, more peaceful, more spiritually advanced
than their own chaotic Earth. His mind reeled, unable to quiet itself.
"Well, sweetie, what do you think?" Terry looked at her husband, whose gaze was still locked immovably
on the ghost writings as if they would disappear from the page at any moment.
Owen slowly forced his eyes away from the pages lying so innocently on the smooth glass, and returned
her look.
"I think I need to get some rest, now. You good with that?"
She smiled back. "Yeah, I think that's a plan."
Taking her hand, he pulled her up out of the chair, and they climbed carefully down the steep attic steps
and headed back into the bedroom as the next new dawn waited just a few short hours away over the
morning horizon. Terry fell asleep just minutes after her body hit the sheets.
Owen lay widely and bewilderingly awake, and couldn't help but wonder if he was ever going to sleep
again.
*******
[> [> We hope you enjoyed! - Tune in next week ( probably ) for Chapter Two :-) -- OnM, 20:24:40 06/23/02 Sun
[> [> Awesome Writings! -- Finn Mac Cool, 22:19:56 06/23/02 Sun
This was a truly awesome first chapter. It nicely builds up to when the portals are gonna open and two universes meet. Especially liked the conversation about a butt-kicking woman on TV and the thought about finding more spiritual, more peaceful worlds. Boy are THEY in for a shock.
I would be happy to supply ideas for this story, and I might want to write some chapters after you get farther in (wouldn't want to derail the path you're taking).
[> [> [> Consider yourself volunteered, then! -- OnM, 05:25:31 06/24/02 Mon
Be glad to add your thoughts and inputs to this project. It's still just beginning (yes, the post title is correct, this is a 'novel'), so there is the entire rest of the summer for chapter contributions to be made.
I'll mail out some outline info and try to bring you up to date on things over the next few days.
Welcome!
[> OnM? Maybe you can help me out. -- VampRiley, 22:22:47 06/23/02 Sun
Some want me to put my R v J parts into the Fic Corner. Thing is, I don't know who to send it to, what the guidleines are and if there is anything specific I need to do. Whenever I've tried the e-mail addresses, I get a "failure to deliver" message. Do you know what I should do? Thanks.
VR
[> [> Guys? What is the current scoop? Should VR be talking to Sol, or Liq? -- OnM, 05:35:25 06/24/02 Mon
Actually not exactly sure, VR, I was going to be dealing with that issue myself as these new fic chapters get deleted from the archives and are supposed to eventually end up at the Existential Scoobies/Fictionary Corner site, which has been having some 'remodeling' done, as you may or may not know.
Sol? Liq?
Where are we at right now, and what are your preferred contact addys for current fic and/or article submissions?
Thanks!
[> [> [> I'm now told it's to Liq. -- VR, 07:02:25 06/24/02 Mon
Use this
lj@ivyweb.net
I tried it and no failure to deliver notices
VR
Ooh.. I just had a really disturbing speculation... -- ZachsMind, 02:06:22 06/24/02 Mon
Joss Whedon has been reported as saying recently that Amber Benson is returning next season, but that Tara is not. I've been thinking this means Tara is going to turn into a ghost. However, from a producing perspective that would mean Tara's returning but Amber Benson may not. The character of Tara would make appearances on the show as a Spirit Guide, but they wouldn't need Amber Benson to play her. They could just use special effects.
So if you were executive producer of Buffy, and a reporter asked you about Tara, had your brain been thinking of turning Tara into a ghost, you'd say the opposite: "Tara is going to return but Amber Benson will not." That's NOT what he said. The actress is going to make a reappearance, but the character of Tara is gone. So how would M.E. bring Amber Benson back without bringing back Tara? Create a new character that hasn't been established before? Like a twin sister or someone who just happens to look just like Tara but isn't? That's way too corny even for Whedon.
Unfortunately, the most logical answer I came up with is this: TaraBot.
*shiver* I know. Ewww. But it fits. We know Willow can make a bot. She has been studying robotics off and on since the second season episode Ted. She knew BuffyBot inside and out at the start of last season, even though it was originally Warren that built her for Spike. Wicca Willow may swear off once again from dark magic, but no one ever said anything about geeky Willow swearing off technology.
Pray I'm wrong. This could be bad.
[> oops. typo. -- ZachsMind, 02:12:59 06/24/02 Mon
Please pretend I said "Witchy Willow" instead of "Wicca Willow" because technically Willow's not wiccan and never has been. I think she still thinks she's jewish. Tara was wiccan. She had respect and responsibility for nature. Willow used magic for kicks and selfish gain. If she really were a pagan witch, she gives the real ones a bad name.
[> Re: Ooh.. I just had a really disturbing speculation... -- John Burwood, 05:20:37 06/24/02 Mon
Hasn't Amber Benson written a screenplay for her own movie, & written for Buffy graphic novels?
She could come back as one of the ME writing team - they must be needing`more writers now they are doing Firefly etc.
That way Amber could return but not Tara.
Pure speculation, but might be interesting.
[> Re: Ooh.. I just had a really disturbing speculation... -- ahira, 05:44:11 06/24/02 Mon
Well, would be an interesting idea, but don't really see them going that way. Building a bot would be too much like standing still or taking backwards steps for Willow on any road to recovering from season 6. They could try and work it in as positive as possible, but has that feel of dwelling in the past to me.
[> Re: Ooh.. I just had a really disturbing speculation... -- Purple Tulip, 07:13:28 06/24/02 Mon
Although I hate to think of this happening, the first thing I thought of when I read your post, was that they could bring her back, maybe briefly, as someone who looks an awful lot like Tara, but isn't. This could be extremely haunting for Willow, and be one more thing for her to deal with on her road to recovery. I really hope that I'm wrong because I think that idea is so cheesy and cliched, and I expect more from ME.
[> [> Re: Ooh.. I just had a really disturbing speculation... -- Brian, 07:57:08 06/24/02 Mon
But, Joss likes to take plot cliches(sp?) and turn them on their ear into something new and wonderful. After all, Buffy started as the blonde bimbo who walks into the dark alley, the spooky celler, the scary old house, a lamb to the slaughter who suddenly kicks butt. Amber returns, and reality takes a nasty twist.
[> [> Re: Ooh.. I just had a really disturbing speculation... -- cjc36, 06:36:58 06/25/02 Tue
I'm thinking AB/NotTara will play in Willow's recovery arc -a witness to the prosecution/defense in some PTB/Devon coven proceeding to determine what is to be done with Willow, or a ghost/spirit guide.
But no, not a TaraBot.
A fanfic with GhostTara giving Willow all kinds of hell and guilt for what Willow's done would be a must-read!
[> [> [> Re: Ooh.. I just had a really disturbing speculation... -- ZachsMind, 11:59:09 06/25/02 Tue
I wouldn't want to see a GhostTara persecuting Willow for her actions. Rather I'd prefer to see Tara's spirit attempt to guide Willow through her own inner demons. I wrote a couple fanfics and have posted them at zachsmind.com/buffy. In "You Slay Me" I focused on Willow's own inner turmoil, and in "Unrest" I dealt with Tara's fate as a spirit and guide. Perhaps had I thought to combine the two ideas into one it would have made for a better fanfic. One that would have gotten more response at fanfiction.net. Instead I approached each concept separately.
[> [> [> [> Re: Ooh.. I just had a really disturbing speculation... -- cjc36, 01:51:24 06/26/02 Wed
Either guide/forgive or prosecute. I see her role either way. The destruction Willow wrought was kind of in Tara's name, so Tara may have issues with that. But I do feel, as I mentioned in a post above, that Tara's spirit will probably play a positive role in Willow's forgiveness of herself.
[> VampTara -- Cleanthes, 08:42:53 06/24/02 Mon
Along these lines, we never saw anything about Tara's character in VampWillow's alternate reality of `The Wish` or `Doppelgängland`. Perhaps VampTara over *there* discovers that her super-sweetie, VampWillow could be recreated by coming to this universe and vamping normal Willow.
I'll betcha that VampTara has no qualms using magic for whatever she wishes.
[> [> Like that idea! -- dream of the consortium, 12:41:54 06/24/02 Mon
Though it's hard to imagine it lasting long enough to justify more than one or two appearances for Amber. Oooh, unless Willow tries to find someone to curse her (having sworn off magic herself, of course)! Then we could have almost enough Souled Vampires for a band.
[> [> [> Re: Like that idea! -- Sophist, 12:48:46 06/24/02 Mon
I do too. But there are some details to work out. For example, VampWillow was dusted in her world while everyone was still in high school. That means she never went to UCSunnydale and never met Tara. And what would VampXander have to say about this anyway?
[> [> [> [> Re: Like that idea! -- dream of the consortium, 13:11:14 06/24/02 Mon
Maybe Vamp Tara can have some sort of visionary power? Becomes obsessed with VampWillow after a dream vision? I'm sure something could be worked out....
And I can't imagine VampXander would have ANY complaints.
I'm still holding out for a VampXander in the regular Sunnydale dimension, though.
[> [> [> [> [> I'm putting you in charge of plot lines, dream. ROFL about VampXander. -- Sophist, 13:26:39 06/24/02 Mon
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Like that idea! -- Masq, 13:56:32 06/24/02 Mon
"And I can't imagine VampXander would have ANY complaints."
Why is it that guys assume that if their girlfriend takes up an interest in other women, that she'll retain her interest in the boyfriend and threesomes will commence?
They'd feel differently if their girlfriend out-and-out dumped them for a woman. ; )
[> Re: Ooh.. I just had a really disturbing speculation... -- Wizardman, 13:06:29 06/24/02 Mon
I don't know about Joss' track record, but I have heard that other high-ups at ME are known for releasing false spoilers and screwing with people. Could this be just an attempt to fake us out to make us all go YES! with great vigour when Amber returns as Tara? I hope so.
Having Amber as a writer... I like that idea too. She is multitalented- actress, singer, writer, comic book writer, etc- so there's hope on that angle, even if she's not in front of the camera.
As for TaraBot/VampTara... both are possible, although they have been done before. In my opinion, ME can do anything it wants as long as it isn't repetitive or stupid. I see VampTara as more likely than TaraBot. The Bot idea has been done, but the WishverseVamp angle has potential. Think about it- Anya brings a version of Tara to comfort Willow, only it's from the alternate dimension that gave us VampWillow. In that case, then Tara never met Willow, in life or unlife. So not only is Tara a vampire, but she has absolutely no idea who Willow is. Suitably angsty for ME, no?
[> [> Re: Ooh.. I just had a really disturbing speculation... -- Dochawk, 14:28:58 06/24/02 Mon
As a Tara lover and especially an AB lover I would love to see her back as a form of Tara, but she wasn't vamped. She was murdered and her body remained in the house all day (daylight hours) so there is no way she could have been vamped (not that it matters since there is no way harmony could have been either, the vamp who bit her was staked moments later).
The idea of AB as a writer for the series hadn't occured to me, but that may very well be the answer to the conundrum. clearly ME needs new writers (there has been an exodus this year)and her story in TOTS was very good.
[> [> [> TaraDemon & Spike's Chip -- ZachsMind, 17:07:47 06/24/02 Mon
Okay so we got GhostTara, TaraBot, and VampTara. Howzabout TaraDemon?
Tara's family insisted that all Maclay women become demons after they reach the age of twenty. Sounded ludicrous. Maybe they left out the part that the Maclay woman has to die first, which was why they wanted her to come home with them so they could "care" for her by killing her human self and releasing the demon. They seemed a pretty screwed up family. But Tara said no. She stayed with her friends: her adopted family. Heck, they already had one ex-vengeance demon in the mix. Even if Tara was a demon, so long as she wasn't one of those evil kinda demons who tend to eat babies, she'd still be welcomed into the Scooby fold.
An argument against this: Chiphead Spike punched Tara in the face to prove that she was human. This convinced everyone in the room, and it even convinced me, but in a different episode Xander gave Spike a gun. He just pointed the gun at a human and his chip went off. Afterwards he was told the gun wasn't even real - it didn't work. So the chip functions on Spike's belief system. The chip can't tell if something is human or not, but it reacts to the neurons firing in Spike's brain and determines whether or not HE thinks something is human. Spike can run up to Willow or Anya and try to scare them into thinking he's going to hurt them in some way, so long as in his mind he isn't thinking about committing the violent act. The chip may have not worked on Tara because Spike believed 100% that Tara wasn't a demon. She could still be one.
This would also explain why Spike can hit Buffy. She's come back from the dead. Spike saw it with his own eyes. He watched her die. Three months later she was walking around. So to Spike's belief system she's not human. She's undead. Just not in a rotting flesh zombie kinda way. So Buffy didn't come back wrong at all, even on a submolecular level. Buffy just came back wrong by Spike's intimation. The wanker. *smirk*
[> Time Travel -- Finn Mac Cool, 13:25:09 06/24/02 Mon
Maybe one of the Scooby Gang (I'm thinking either Willow or Dawn) go back in time to try and stop the events of Seeing Red.
A good ending to that episode would be Willow stopping it because messing with the past can have bad consequences. That would be a big step for her.
[> What Looks Like Tara, Walks Like Tara, Talks Like Tara... -- cjl, 14:11:36 06/24/02 Mon
But isn't Tara?
Why not take a cue from "Becoming" or "Amends," where evil entities tortured our heroes by taking on the faces of loved ones and/or innocent victims? (Robia got TWO paychecks that way!)
What better way for a villain to torture/break Willow and maybe turn her back to the dark side than to impersonate Tara and gnaw at that tender nerve in the back of poor Willow's head?
[> [> Well that would be everyones worste nightmare -- shadowkat, 10:20:28 06/25/02 Tue
A demonic entity that looked, felt and talked like TARA.
But really wasn't.
[> [> [> Re: Well that would be everyones worste nightmare -- John Burwood, 11:26:53 06/25/02 Tue
How about a shape-shifting demon - that could be Tara to upset Willow, Joyce to upset Buffy & Dawn, Jesse to upset Xander?
Maybe one which can only imitate the dead - could also imitate the Mayor or the Master or Snyder to freak out everybody.
Like the First Evil's illusions only solid.
Each and every separate character's separate worst nightmare.
Probably too wild an idea, but I did love the ep Nightmares.
[> [> [> [> Love it too... -- shadowkat, 19:26:28 06/25/02 Tue
Hope they do it - that would be cool.
Yep, Nightmares is one of my all time favorites.
But what you suggest happened in Amends with poor Angel.
Hmmm they could do something similar with Spike? Naw
too repetitive. Whatever they do, please don't be redundant, that's what I love about the show, it hasn't been redundant, yet.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Love it too... -- Finn Mac Cool, 21:07:31 06/25/02 Tue
They could do something similar to Amends, but have Spike give into the temptation to evil.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Also redundant -- shadowkat, 06:30:13 06/26/02 Wed
Evil Spike? Been there done that. Redundant.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Also redundant -- Finn Mac Cool, 09:02:57 06/26/02 Wed
Ah, here's the thing:
We've seen Spike do evil things for evil reasons. And we've seen him do good things for reasons ranging from selfish to in the name of love.
Well, what if he became even more in the gray. What if he started doing evil because he thought it was the right thing to do. A possible scenario could be joining up with Season 7's Big Bad if he/she/it promises to spare Buffy and Dawn. He'd be doing evil, but doing it because he thought it was right.
[> Still going with Spirit Guide... -- Scroll, 07:37:48 06/25/02 Tue
I'm thinking Amber Benson will reprise her role from "Restless" as Buffy's spirit guide. Since Season 7 is supposed to be a return to Year One, where Buffy is this powerful woman who kicks butt, maybe they'll continue exploring what it means to be a Slayer. That would bring up the First Slayer again, and perhaps Amber as that spirit guide who spoke for the First Slayer. She could appear to Buffy in prophetic dreams.
[> My problem... -- maddog, 21:19:21 06/25/02 Tue
My problem is that unless they change her look(including facial features) no matter what they call her, I'm still gonna see Tara. It'll be hard to seperate. You can't just use the same actress and expect us not to do that.
[> [> Maddog, I agree... -- aliera, 07:47:03 06/26/02 Wed
There's been quite a bit of talk elsewhere about this and it's hard to see how they will pull it off convincingly (of course I'm one of the one's who was unconvinced by the addiction storyline). The most common guesses seem to be some form of astral guide for Buffy and or Willow. I really enjoyed the scripted lines for Tara this season; but if they do mature the characters a bit over the summer, and use Giles more, I'm not sure they will need her as that type of counterpoint. She's missed.
[> Re: Ooh.. I just had a really disturbing speculation... -- NightRepair, 04:33:49 06/26/02 Wed
How David Lynch of him!
James Marsters at SFX Convention -- LeeAnn, 02:53:12 06/24/02 Mon
James Marsters at the SFX Convention
How difficult it was doing the AR in Seeing Red:
Then he was asked what the most challenging scene he had done so far was. He said the shower room scene and wondered if we'd all seen that yet as some only had terrestrial TV. He then said that he had turned down roles in the past that contained that sort of material and admitted, "I can't even watch stuff where women or children get hurt, I want to kill them - I want to kill the writer." Afterwards he went home in tears "blubbering". He was glad he did it as it fitted the story line, etc, but he doesn't want to go through it again.
He dated Harmony!!
He said that he went out with Mercedes on a date and then admits (sheepishly) that he left it a week and a half before he called her. After that he blew it and she wouldn't give him the time of day.
AND..
In Tabula Rasa it took twelve takes to do the final kissing scene because he kept kissing Sarah for real and she had to tell him that it was like stunt scenes. You don't hit someone for real and neither do you kiss someone for real.
Lucky Girl!
[> Interesting... -- shadowkat, 07:10:28 06/24/02 Mon
and I need to stop reading these things...all it does is build my infatuation for an actor I'll never meet. LOL!
Okay, so those kisses we see on TV aren't real? What
do they do kiss air? Or is it the no tongue rule? Just
curious...
Understand his views on SR. I remember an actor posting on B C & S who got me to watch that scene, he said as an actor the acting alone was tremendous on both parts and how incredibly hard that type of scene is to do for actors. It's easy to write it, but to perform it well is trememdously difficult. And the acting in that scene blew me away - it was actually IMHO the best acting in the entire episode and overshadowed everything else. And certainly the best portayle I've seen TV do of that type of scene in a long time. JM and SMG should get nominated for an emmy that scene alone.
[> [> Nominated for an emmy? Don't hold your breath. -- LeeAnn, 07:44:33 06/24/02 Mon
The day James starts getting the recognition he deserves is the day sinners can stop worrying about roasting in hell cause it will have frozen over.
[> [> Re: Interesting... -- Exegy, 09:00:15 06/24/02 Mon
I think the stage kisses are devoid of actual tongue; they're just mouthing. I recall an interview with Eliza Dushku ... ED was talking about her kissing of DB in Enemies. She mentioned to the crew that they might want to do the take without Angel's vamp-fangs, because her tongue kept getting scraped. Whereupon everyone looked at her with rather funny expressions. She wasn't supposed to slip tongue with another actor (wonder what DB thought!). ED came up with a quip on method acting ... of course. Sorry, I don't have a link to the actual interview, but I know I have the basic gist right.
On SR ... I agree, the bathroom scene is probably some the best acting I have witnessed from either JM or SMG. It must have been harder for them to do than it is for us to watch. The Emmy committee should take notice ... but probably won't. I'm almost certain that Sarah won't get a nom; JM has a slightly better chance ... he's been getting some incredible buzz lately. I'd say that he and AH have the best chances for any BtVS actor to get a nom for this season ... but the odds still aren't favorable.
OMWF is another story ... if that ep doesn't garner some Emmy recognition.... GRRR AARRGH!
[> [> [> Completely agree... -- shadowkat, 09:30:52 06/24/02 Mon
JM actually made Season 6 work for me - it was like watching a trapeze artist or tight rope walker. His performances in Bargaining, Afterlife, Life Serial,
OMWF, TR, Smashed, Wrecked, Gone (and that had to have been tough, completely naked, pretending to be having sex
with someone who is invisible...he convinced me she
was actually there), DT (tight wire act if I ever saw one, especially that Bronze scene), AYW (just about saved the episode for me), Normal Again, Hell Bells,
Entropy, and of course SR - that man had to literally display the full range of emotions with little to no dialogue on his face - in Entropy, Anna had most of the dialog, JM all the reaction shots. I've watched a ton of TV in my life
and seen other shows this year, and no one blew me away like he did. And he did it subtly and professionally.
AH and SMG were very good. And I agree AH and JM have the best chance this year.
Also agree - if OMWF doesn't get a nod, I'll give up
and treat the Emmys the way I've started treating the
Oscars - worthless popularity contests. ;-)
On ED and DB - LOL! I know Gellar keeps telling stories where DB and her used to trick each other by eating tuna
fish, onions and pickles b/f kissing scenes. Yep, I think that's the standard, no tongue - soap actors don't b/c of all their love scenes. Nor do most tv. But lots of stage and movie actors seem to because it comes across as a real kiss. (I've heard explanations for both styles.) Sounds complicated - sort of glad I'm not an actor and just a poor frustrated writer. ;-)
[> [> [> Emmys -- Dochawk, 13:50:09 06/24/02 Mon
One of the nice things about what I do and where Ilive is that I get to meet alot of people involved in the "Industry" (and they tend to like youwhen you don't fawn and don't wwant to use them to get into the industry). I have had more than a few chats with Emmy voters (none of whom would give me the DVD nor get me into the ATAS event though). SMG has an excellent reputation and seems to have a reasonable chance of a nomination. Her name is much better known than anyone else involved in Buffy (maybe even better known than Joss) and all the publicity for Scooby and how well it did reallyhelps at a time when people are sending their nominations in. And also look at the competition for the noms this year. At least two spots are open (since Sopranos isn't eligible) and West Wing had a down year (and I would be suprised if she is consiered in female lead for a drama and not supporting). Who does that leave? Amy Brenneman was nominated for Judging Amy last year, so we'll assume she gets it again, Marg hellenberger for CSI has to be the favorite, Sela Ward? for a cancelled show (its certainly happened before). Then there are the last two spots and they will come from 3 women I think: Jennifer Garner for Alias; People have mentioned Keri Russell for Felicity, another cancelled series and SMG. Can anyone think of another contender? None of the women on 6 Feet Under are really lead. Remember she already won an Emmy for Daytime and those members get to vote. I think its a great chance for her to breakthrough. (BTW Lauren Graham from Gilmore Girls who I would have thought was a shoo-in seems to be considered in the comedy category, didn't know GG was supposed to be a comedy, but could be wrong about it).
As for AH and JM. AH has a better chance, solely because she is much better known and the competition is no where near as fierce. JM deserves a nom, but Best Supporting Actor is really really tough, 3 men from West Wing, 2 from 6 Feet Under, then ER, NYPD Blue etc are much more mainstream.
[> [> [> [> Well, I just hope BtVS manages to get ONE acting nom before series' end! -- Exegy, 19:25:30 06/24/02 Mon
All these fine actors merit at least some Emmy recognition for their stellar work over the years. If the nominating committee considers body of work--there is no doubt that Sarah especially deserves her spot. However, I'm not sure that she'll get it this year--seems like the critics have underrated much of her nuanced performance. So while Sarah nails her main storyline of depression wonderfully, a lot of viewers haven't really noticed--they've been too turned off by the unrelenting darkness.
JM and AH were given very dark storylines to fit with the season, but their characters were not so completely submerged in depression. They were far more colorful and expressive. In comparison, Buffy's intentional lack of expression reflects poorly on the actress ... even though she is doing her job extremely well.
It just seems like JM and AH gave more "crowd-pleasing" performances, attracting more attention to their acting by the nature of their roles. AH's Willow particularly attracted the buzz in the last episodes, with the focus of the finale turning upon her character's self-destructive rebellion. And then, in case anyone forgot about Spike, there was the cliffhanger to keep him in mind.
So here is my opinion of who is most likely to get an Emmy nom (not necessarily most deserving):
1. JM--I'd submit either SR or After Life for consideration. On the one hand, SR features probably the most difficult acting scenes ... but on the other hand, it also features the culmination of a dark storyline that turned many viewers off. This is Spike at his worst. In stark contrast, After Life shows Spike at his best ... a "noble knight" who lives in the shadow of his failure only to have his love miraculously return to him. At the time of After Life, the character in no way seems destined to become a near-rapist. Comparing After Life and SR just shows how far Spike has come down ... and what range JM is capable of. It's really disappointing that two episodes can't be submitted for consideration, because SR and AL would be a perfect double-whammy.
2. AH--I don't know if the two-part finale counts as a single episode, so I'll hold off on that. Her other fine performances include Bargaining, Wrecked, and (arguably) Villains. I'd go with Bargaining (I), if only to show that AH was able to convey the underlying seeds of Willow's spiral into darkness so well ... even while maintaining the character's apparent sense of righteousness.
3. SMG--In my opinion, Normal Again is perhaps the most hauntingly effective performance she has ever delivered. She captures the internal dilemma Buffy faces so well ... seriously, there may have been tears in my eyes. What a great episode ... with SMG's Buffy as its undisputed centerpiece.
4. ASH (only if he is considered for Best Guest Actor)--I'd probably choose to send Flooded, which features the heartwarming reunion of Giles and Buffy alongside the chilling confrontation of Giles and Willow. Interesting contrast ... and one that is repeated in the finale.
5. EC--This actress has really delivered on an expanded role. She has great comedic timing. I don't know if I'd submit her alongside AH, though, because that might weaken ME's best chance at a Supporting Actress spot. In a hypothetical scenario, I'd send in either HB or Entropy for Emma ... probably Entropy, because she owns that ep (along with JM and NB).
6. NB--I doubt he has any realistic expectations of Best Actor or BSA this season ... too underdeveloped a role for too long. That said, he turns in some fine performances in HB, Entropy, and SR. He proves that he can handle the serious as well as the funny.
7. MT--She's a fine young actress, but this year she was saddled with the most insipid of the main characters. Dawn was mostly used as a device and a reflection of the other characters, and it shows. Maybe next year.
Anyone else with opinions? Flame away.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Well -- LeeAnn, 20:47:23 06/24/02 Mon
I'd add As You Were for JM. I know people hate this episode for Riley and the plot holes but I love, Love, LOVE the acting that JM did in it. I think it and Seeing Red absolutely showed his genius. Sometimes I think one of the reasons that people hate this episode is that JM's performance was so powerful that it was painful to watch.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Yeah, that *was* painful ... -- Exegy, 21:26:42 06/24/02 Mon
JM does a great job in conveying Spike's vulnerability (Williamosity, LOL). I'm in total agreement with you about his genius ... but I'm not sure that AYW would be a good choice to send in to the Emmy panels. I don't think the episode holds up as well as SR or AL ... there are other aspects of it that detract from the performances. I'm sorry, but even JM cannot make me believe that Spike is an international arms dealer who goes by the name of The Doctor. Amoral and opportunistic? Sure. But my suspension of disbelief can only extend so far, and then no fanwank on this earth can salvage it.
There's great acting in AYW, but like I said--I don't think that the episode is the best showcase for it. A lot is lost in the plot-clutter. Whereas AL really emphasizes those quiet moments of character, drawing attention to the various actors' abilities. (Also, there are longer reaction shots, which are more impressive than the short edits. And speeches on the caliber of "Every night I save you" merit extra brownie points).
This is all, of course, personal preference, but I suspect that SR or AL or even DT would make a stronger case for JM than the spotty AYW. It's about putting one's best efforts forward in the episode where they have the best chance of being noticed.
Having said all this, I mention again that I really agree with you, but I'm not sure that an Emmy committee would. I guess it takes dedicated fans to pick up on the nuanced performances ... a lot of my friends will watch a Buffy ep and just shake their heads when I mention the exceptional acting. You're just not going to get it if you're only a sporadic viewer, which is why BtVS hasn't achieved the mainstream respect ... because it's not friendly to the casual fan. There should be more obsessives like us! Then those Emmy voters would really get it!
Okay, if this ramble makes any sense, then I shall be surprised. Thanks for putting up with me today.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Well, I just hope BtVS manages to get ONE acting nom before series' end! -- ravenhair, 20:53:41 06/24/02 Mon
I'm really hoping AH is nominated for Best Supporting Actress. Which episodes have been turned in to the voting committee? If OMWF is the only ep that has been submitted, SMG is the only actor I see being recognized. JM gave several great performances (AfterLife and Seeing Red stand out) and would be thrilled if he were nominated for Best Supporting Actor, but it's a long shot. And I agree with shadowkat, it would be shameful if the musical episode isn't nominated.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Well, I just hope BtVS manages to get ONE acting nom before series' end! -- Dochawk, 09:52:18 06/25/02 Tue
For Emmy Consideration Videotapes for the actors come from their publicists. The actor and publicist decide together what category they want to be considered for and what 2 episodes they will submit. They usually choose episodes that show contrasting acting abilities. The network will then support the actor by sending out the tapes. Thats why you will get 5 or 6 different episodes available on the net. Unfortunately, Emmy voters frequently don't take their responsibility seriously and don't watch the episodes, they just vote.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Sad Fact Is . . . -- Finn Mac Cool, 11:43:14 06/25/02 Tue
The sad fact is that you have to be a very well known actor to get an emmy nomination. Of all the cast, Sarah Gellar is most likely because she has a lot of name recognition.
James Marsters definitely deserves Best Supporting Actor, but probably won't even be nominated because few non-BtVS fans have heard of him. Though, I would reccomend Smashed or Seeing Red to judge him by.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> And all this time I thought they limited the actors to a single submission ... -- Exegy, 14:14:02 06/25/02 Tue
Thanks for the one-up, Dochawk. I guess I'd alter my hypothetical submissions accordingly:
SMG: Normal Again and Bargaining II. The second hour of Bargaining features SMG as both perky 'bot and soul-ravaged Buffy ... two more contrasting styles could not be found. Great range in a single episode.
AH: Two to Go and Grave. Alyson really comes through in the finale. As Willow, she projects seething jealousy towards Buffy and Giles, undeniable menace towards the geeks and Dawn, and bottomless self-loathing towards herself and her world. Wonderful ... er, terrible.
JM: Definitely SR and AL. Two contrasting approaches for the same character.
EC: Hell's Bells and Entropy. Great comic and tragic delivery.
ASH: Flooded and maybe TR. Nice timing in both.
NB: Entropy and SR (counting on everyone already seeing OMWF).
MT: SR and Bargaining I. Dawn's cuddling up to the shell of the Buffybot is just precious.
But of course, no one would probably review all these episodes, so this is all moot speculation and opinion on my part. Oh well, fun for me.
[> Wait, wait, wait...JM dated Mercedes?! -- cjl, 11:36:53 06/24/02 Mon
I'll never be able to look at those Season 4/5 episodes again without imagining some RL backstory in the Spike/Harmony scenes. (I have the same problem with the movie "All of Me." Steve Martin and Victoria Tennant displayed zero on-screen romantic chemistry--but they got married. And then divorced. I can never watch the movie without wondering what went right in the first place....)
[> [> LOL! -- shadowkat, 12:10:19 06/24/02 Mon
Isn't it interesting that actors with no on-screen chemistry date and get married and the one's with on-screen
chemistry are either just friends or well, definitely not?
Debra Winger and Richard Gere hated each other in Officer
and A Gentleman but had the best chemistry.
Nicole Kidman and Tom Cruise had zero on-screen chemistry.
So little in fact, people were convinced he was gay after seeing Eyes Wide Shut.
Spike had major chemistry with Buffy, Dru, even Angel,Dawn Xander, and Willow but very little with HArmony...IMHO
so one wonders...maybe there's something the camera adds that we don't see?
(Of course must admit a bias here - the two characters I like the least on Btvs are Harmony and Warren. Harmony sets my teeth on edge and Warren makes me cringe.)
PS: didn't get that philly job, so still in nyc and on the market
[> [> [> Re: LOL! -- leslie, 12:55:59 06/24/02 Mon
This is my theory (which is mine): you always start hearing about romantic entanglements/development of relationships between actors on movies that often stink. Is it that the work is so bad and/or boring that they have to amuse themselves otherwise? (Driven to Love by Bad Writing?) (Though I have to say, I think there *is* chemistry between Steve Martin and Victoria Tennet in LA Story--which was made when they were already married--not so much in All Of Me--which is when they met. In All Of Me, though, there is plenty of chemistry, not to mention sharing of body parts, between Martin and Lily Tomlin! So go figure.)
[> [> [> [> Agree with your take! Felt the same -- shadowkat, 13:01:28 06/24/02 Mon
And can you tell I'm bored at work today...LOL!
[> [> [> [> [> Sorry to hear about the Philly job, 'kat. Keep plugging.... -- cjl, 14:00:31 06/24/02 Mon
[> [> [> [> [> [> Ditto that. -- Exegy, 19:27:58 06/24/02 Mon
[> [> [> [> LA Story -- Dochawk, 13:26:16 06/24/02 Mon
Wait, are you saying you thoguht LA Story was a bad movie? its on my list of top 5 of all time.
[> [> [> [> [> No, I *love* LA Story. -- leslie, 14:33:47 06/24/02 Mon
[> [> I'm thinking HLOD... -- LeeAnn, 13:03:16 06/24/02 Mon
Their scenes in Harsh Ligh of Day are so playful. Especially when they are having any kind of physical interaction. Maybe it was then and added a little spice to their scenes.
Here's another interview that was online but no longer is.
James Marsters
You've had the big musical and the big love scene - how did fans react?
I don't know, frankly. To do that, I would have to get online and spend hours finding out, which means I would spend hours hearing that I'm all that. And it can warp your brain, after five years. It doesn't mean I'm not appreciative, it doesn't mean I don't like the fan mail.
Most of your fans believe you're English anyway.
Yeah, sorrry guys (laughs)
Do you have time for anything other than your music and Buffy?
Too many girlfriends! (laughs)
Is that a problem?
Yeah, I"ve discovered that it is! (Laughs). No, it has taken a lot of energy up, and I think I should put a little more into the show.
Have you had any French girlfriends?
For a little while when I was in France last year (laughs).
Yeah, that was nice actually. Good kissers.
German girlfriends?
A German girlfriend, when I was in England, for a night. (laughs). Bonn, beautiful girl. Nothing wrong with English girls (laughs), I had an English girlfriend!
OK then - what about Aussie girls? I have to get that in!
Very beautiful, but at the time a brought another girl with me to that function, so I was with someone from America, at that point. This is starting to sound really bad, man (laughs). Yikes!
Isn't it sweet how he calls them "girlfriends"?
[> [> Good? -- aithen_ravenwind, 00:06:31 06/26/02 Wed
She was 18, he was 38. That is just sad.
[> Twelve takes!? -- Traveler, 01:59:02 06/25/02 Tue
I have to wonder if JM was being a little... deliberately obtuse. If I could have 12 takes worth of kissing SMG, I would certainly do it :)
[> [> Re: Twelve takes!? -- Rufus, 05:32:23 06/25/02 Tue
Yes,....."Hold on.....I think my lip slipped....I could do this shot soooo much better......Let's try again!"......must have been a long day......;)
Spike's 10,000 ways -- Off-kilter, 04:57:53 06/24/02 Mon
Since you didn't eat me alive with my first post, I decided to see if I could risk posting another long ramble. Once again it is an excerpt from my "brain spills" that I sent to shadowkat, and she has been kind enough to encourage me to put it out here. I'm posting this before I change my mind.
*********************************
"If at first you don't succeed, try and try again" -maxim
"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again while expecting the result to be different." -unknown author
Spike is often described as the most inconsistent character in Buffyverse. The writers have been chastisized for flipping his reactions from one extreme to the other with each episode. While the writers have been a bit heavy-handed and fumbled more than once, I think he was supposed to be erratic this season.
IMO the reason that he has been all over the place in his behavior is that he is trying to reach Buffy through different approaches. Being quiet and supportive got Buffy to be with him, but not the way he wanted her. It couldn't last forever. Patience is not the boy's strong point, and he's NEVER known when to keep his mouth shut in the past, so you have to give him credit for even TRYING this technique :-D. Pretty impressive that he kept it up till OMWF cursed him into singing how frustrated he was with the situation. Irritated with her running from his feelings, he turns away from Buffy and gets quite a response from her! A full on lip-lock as the curtain fell.
Abandon prior plan of patience, this is the goods! So he pursues, because something changed, right? Well, not enough. So when he tries to get her to acknowledge the new playing field in TR he gets slapped down. Once again, he pulls back, turning away from her in the Bronze. Once again, she lays it on him, hot and heavy.
Hmmm. See a pattern yet, Spiky boy?
Maybe, but it's sooo hard to quit the Faith/Spike maxim, "want, take, have" that he has been following all of these years. So he pushes again, dancing the same steps and leading to the same response. He offers to change, gets whapped and strikes back reflexively. Nothing new. Except wait! No pain! What the hell? After a little regrouping, he decides to see what will happen if he explores this ability to fight Buffy. Be quiet - get overlooked. Pursue her - get shot down. Offer to change - get SMACKED down! She's refusing to react to anything else he is doing, what about this?!
And what a response he gets! Talk about positive reinforcement. Definitely pay dirt for the vamp in love/lust. This is not just a reaction, but almost EXACTLY what he thinks he wants from her.
**I always wondered what he would have done if she had refused to fight him. Maybe I'm over estimating Spike, but I don't think he would have continued to hit her. Especially since we never saw him try to hurt her physically after that night. Even in SR he wasn't trying to HURT her, although that is what happened.**
So he gets a response from sex and Spike is comfortable with his skills in that area. She draws back again, but he knows the field of play has been irrevocably changed. He's even smug enough to wait for her to come to him for once. He's richly rewarded for it in Gone; she is all over him - can't get enough. And he revels in it until Xander shows up and reminds Spike that he doesn't really have her. Spike is not a half-way person if he can help it. He pulls away, kind of disgusted with himself and the situation, and sends Buffy packing for the first time ever. She is less than thrilled with this development, attempts to change his mind, pouts when he insists, and as far as we can tell she goes after him again.
Hey Spike! That pattern I was talking about! Do you see it NOW?
Maybe. But after waiting so long for any kind of reaction from her other than Kick-the-Spike or Puppy-dog-confidant, giving up something that feels this good is hard. Perhaps it will lead to something new. Maybe she'll see that she can love him if he shows her how good he is in the sack. Showing her that he was willing to change as a person didn't seem to work.
**By the way, this is the reason why he didn't bother to continue the "good" program. Buffy told him repeatedly that he couldn't change when he offered to try. She rarely rewarded him for his attempts at good. In Triangle he even gripes, "what does it take?!" In his view, she was responding to his seduction, not his redemption, so why waste time and energy doing that goody-goody stuff? It wasn't getting him anywhere with her. So doing indirectly evil things like sell demon eggs was perfectly reasonable in his mind. It's just that the writers stumbled in showing:
1) that Spike was actually the Doctor (he would never choose that name. Doc was responsible for his greatest failure and shame)
2) that Spike had actually rationalized this to himself.**
Now he's got her in his bed and he should be happy, right? No. He wants her fully, madly, deeply in love. Like him. What would it take? What about conversation and trust talk? Um, a big Negatory from Buffy. Any fluff or time for contemplation and she kicks him in the head and runs off with her "virtue a'fluttering". Attempting to be good didn't draw her in, what about appealing to the darkness within her? If she won't believe that he could be good, maybe she could accept that SHE could be bad. Unfortunately, she doesn't put the kibosh on this in the Bronze and instead lets doubt creep into her mind. She thinks, uneasily, that he might be right.
In DT she thinks she kills an innocent. Oh God! She's just like Faith! No, she'll make amends. She's not rational at this point. Giles has told her that things like this have happened in the past for Slayers, but she feels her only recourse is to go to jail like any other murderer. Spike tries to stop her, tries to reason with her. He just doesn't understand her agony; she's not in any state to explain. He's there. He's in her way. He's everything that she doesn't want to be. Violence is how she solves a lot of her problems. Old habits die hard. So she attacks him - not to kill him, but to beat the evil out of him. Out of her. She is exactly like Faith in this scene.
Okay. The whole "convince her to accept the darkness inside" didn't work, so he tries to nonchalantly step back to the previous level of hanging around her and being sexually available. He is unhappy with getting the crap beat out of him, yes. But it's not something new in the relationship, just turned up a notch or three. And he thought it would help her. So, aside from a snide remark or two, he's willing to let it slide if she is. And boy, is she ready to forget about it!
Then Riley returns. Spike doesn't know about it when Buffy visits him. He's ready to play the sex game if that is what it takes for her to come to him. Imagine his shock and delight that she wants to hear talk of love! Maybe this was how he should have been playing it all along? Of course, Riley shows up and Spike instantly understands why Buffy wanted him to want her. It's not about Buffy changing how she feels about Spike; it's all about Buffy being insecure now that the ex has returned. No wonder he's all in-your-face and snarky to Riley. It's covering up a HUGE amount of pain and fear. And Buffy does nothing to reassure him. When she expresses her disgust about the scheme, he is shocked. He thought he knew what she was looking for in him. And it wasn't being GOOD. It shakes his preconceptions of their relationship to its core.
When he goes back to his crypt, more than just his furniture has been destroyed. The small amount of control and freedom he felt in the relationship is gone. It was all an illusion. Something in him breaks. Buffy arrives and he is resigned to losing her to Riley. When she says Riley left, he barely looks up from the wreckage to offer her the only thing she has ever wanted from him. She starts to break up with him again. This is familiar; he can handle it. But she breaks the pattern. She isn't yelling. She's not in denial. She's acknowledging that they had something. Heat. Desire. And that it must end. Whoa! Not the response wanted or expected. So Spike back pedals, reminds her how good it was, tells her he'll take anything, anything at all. Ask for nothing. Just don't go. All for naught. She silences him with his worst fear.
Darn. Back to square one. Or is it minus 10? Anyone who's been sent back to the end of the line can tell you that it's one of the most frustrating things in the world. Especially when you are SURE that you see your goal *just* around the corner! He tries new ways to get her to react. Jealousy, that works. But it hurts him to see her hurt. Buffy is respectful and sweet in acknowledging his efforts. And love's bitch just melts and is sweet right back. Confused by her and unwilling to cause a scene after the most tender interaction they have had since OMWF, he leaves. In NA, he's still trying to keep that connection, and all seems well until the Scoobs show up. Frustrated, he lashes out at Xander, who, like Buffy, couldn't see the "good thing" they had.
Sweet, respectful ex didn't work, so he goes back to old habits and tries the pushy stalker persona again. He holds the threat of spilling all to her friends if she won't "come out" and publicly admit that what they had (hopefully still have, in his mind) meant something to her. Her taunt that his threat is hollow is grating and true. Even for our volatile vamp, these emotional swings are getting wildly out of control. Nothing he does seems be getting him to where he wants to be. And he has tried everything he can think of! He's as low as he's ever been.
This leads him to Anya and the futile attempt to do a Willow and "poof" the feelings away. Instead, the lovelorn pair commiserate in a drunken haze. Companionship, compassion, and desperate loneliness lead to a futile attempt to "move on" from their broken relationships. Afterwards, he nods to Anya, wordlessly offering her thanks and respect. Unfortuently, his last effort to control the roller-coaster ride that is his emotional state didn't work. What's left?
It's almost a relief when Xander tries to kill him. Why not? It would make the feelings stop. Rest in peace . . . or at least not be. Buffy and Anya stop Xander and Spike bonelessly sags to the ground. He's got nothing left to support him. It's not till Xander starts berating Anya that a niggling chivalry has him throw out a bone he knows will knock Xander off of browbeating her. It doesn't hurt that the info will hurt Buffy, but he almost seems ashamed of that fact.
So he goes back to what's left of his home to brood and drink. Dawn comes over and barely interrupts his sulk. She shocks him with the knowledge of his tryst with Anya. It bothers him. Her innocence and her support of him are some of the only bright spots left in his hovel of an unlife. What she thinks of him matters greatly. She berates him for treating Buffy wrong and leaves him to stew in regret.
Again, he decides to do something new. He goes to apologize. This time he doesn't expect to reconcile with Buffy, he's just attempting to make amends. He says that he wishes Xander had dusted him and gets a scrap of hope from her response. A little drunk and a lot lost, Spike panics when she reiterates that she doesn't love him. He snaps and tries to get her to respond to him the only way he knows how. Fighting and sex are the only ways she has allowed him to connect and he is desperate. He doesn't hear her pleas; he can only hear his own overwhelming flood of emotion. Kicked off of her, he is dismayed by what happened, what he did to her.
Totally confused, he goes home where Clem finds him in the throes of self-examination. What is wrong with him? Why does he feel this way? The guilt, the remorse. Totally at odds with the demon in him. What the hell is going on? Something has got to change! What more can a soulless fiend do?!
He's got to try something different. Something radical. Something no vampire has ever thought about or wanted before. Watch his face regain confidence and calm once he makes the decision. Things are GONNA change! He'll make sure of it or die trying. It really doesn't matter which. He's got a plan. It's all about the "fists and fangs" again. He's not afraid of a fight he might not win. He's a fighter; he'll fight for Buffy or go out with a BANG! not a whimper. HE'S GOT HIS ROCKS BACK!
"Just because something doesn't do what you planned it to do in the first place doesn't mean it's useless....Surprises and reverses should be an incentive to great accomplishment. Results? Why, man, I have gotten lots of results! If I find 10,000 ways something won't work, I haven't failed. I am not discouraged, because every wrong attempt discarded is just one more step forward.... There are no rules here, we're just trying to accomplish something. " - Thomas Edison
Yes! and Yea! It took me some time and the interview by JE to come to this conclusion. My first reaction to soul-having Spike was, "BOO, HISS!!!" But I've decided that other posters are right; the fact that he is *choosing* a soul shows that he has put himself on the path to redemption. Spuffy might be dead, but Spike's story will keep me glued next season.
Comments, questions, . . . catcalls?
I'm ready for you! *hiding in closet*
[> Great Essay. Totally agree. -- LeeAnn, 06:13:58 06/24/02 Mon
Buffy only offered positive reenforcement to Spike for rejecting her, turning away from her, violence and sex. Was she TRYING to get him to go bad? Training him to do just that by rewarding him when he did?
I'm not sure how I feel about the soul cause I'm afraid Spike died of it. Like I believe Angel and Angelus are two different people.
October will tell.
[> [> RE: Angel/angelus (comic suggestion..) -- shadowkat, 10:27:32 06/24/02 Mon
I just read an article on slayage about how in the recent
line of Angel comics that are co-written by Whedon, it
was suggested that the Gypsey curse had more in mind than just giving Angel a soul and that Angelus may not have actually gotten Liam's soul. So Angel may not be who he thinks he is.
If this is the case...methinks Spike will be different
from Angel in four ways:
1. Spike still has a chip
2. Willaim is nothing like Liam
3. Spike went after the soul, wasn't a curse and he did it as a direct result of attempting to rape Buffy (hey, this is what the writers said.)
4. Angel didn't get his soul, they cursed him with someone elses? While Spike actually did? So Angelus did die when he got cursed, maybe Spike didn't when he got his soul?
[> [> [> What a happy idea... -- LeeAnn, 12:52:07 06/24/02 Mon
Angel didn't get his soul, they cursed him with someone elses? While Spike actually did? So Angelus did die when he got cursed, maybe Spike didn't when he got his soul?
Oh cool. That would make me so happy. No dead Spike.
[> Re: Spike's 10,000 ways -- Liana, 06:14:14 06/24/02 Mon
Do not hide!! Very well thought out post. I love the way you have followed Spike's POV throughout. I admit I had a hard time following his choices during the season but after reading your post I see the writer's possible approach. PS I am with you on the Doctor Thing!
[> Re: Spike's 10,000 ways -- Caroline, 08:52:49 06/24/02 Mon
My brain is far too jet-lagged to make any sense right now, so I'll spare you my ramblings but just let me say how much I enjoy your prose style!
[> Re: Spike's 10,000 ways -- aliera, 09:01:48 06/24/02 Mon
Thanks for the essay, Off Kilter! Really enjoyed...any thoughts on where they might take hime next season?
[> [> Sure I have ideas! -- Off-kilter, 15:32:26 06/24/02 Mon
10,000 of 'em. All will be wrong. JW listens to my thoughts via radiowaves, cackles while rubbing his hands in fiendish glee, and takes the storylines and characters in directions skewed from my vision. I am being tested.
[> [> [> LOL -- Rahael, 16:31:29 06/24/02 Mon
Does he hear your thoughts via his elbow?
[> [> [> [> Silly woman. -- Off-kilter, 22:10:00 06/24/02 Mon
Don't you know that dental fillings are the classic thought receptor sites? I'm fiddling with my aluminum foil brain protector, still a few bugs. Hey, none of you get any ideas! Patent is pending.
[> Thanks for posting this ... ! Very enjoyable read. -- Exegy, 09:02:21 06/24/02 Mon
[> Re: Spike's 10,000 ways -- Wynn, 09:03:49 06/24/02 Mon
I enjoyed your essay very much. I like your analysis of Spike's erratic actions this season. It's a much better thought than ME had lost all sense of who the character was. I also agree with your points concerning Buffy and Spike's respective states of mind in DT and SR (I thought of Faith and the scene in Who Are You and its similarity to the alley scene in DT too.)
Like you, I am eagerly anticipating the continuation of Spike's journey in S7. :)
Wynn
[> Re: Spike's 10,000 ways -- Oneeyedchicklet, 09:58:58 06/24/02 Mon
Thanks for posting that great recap of Season 6 Spike! I agree with your conclusions and I emphatically agree about the naming of the "Doctor". I spent a lot of time trying to figure out what I didn't understand in that episode only to come to the conclusion that the writers dropped the ball. We have all been groomed to look for subtlety and when we are hit with a sledge hammer it confuses us.
[> Very good...! printed. -- shadowkat, 10:30:25 06/24/02 Mon
I printed it off to read later, although I think you already know my thoughts. ;-)
good post.
[> I must also add my praise to the growing list -- Dead Soul, 12:19:13 06/24/02 Mon
[> Great essay! Very enjoyable! -- Wizardman, 12:53:34 06/24/02 Mon
[> [> I love this! Very well thought out and written. -- t007, 13:46:33 06/24/02 Mon
[> Once Again its left to me to stand on a plank all alone -- Dochawk, 14:08:43 06/24/02 Mon
First off let me say this, I liked Spike, or I used to until I spent so much time defending Buffy in the face of Spike. yet he is a very interesting character and JM is marvelous in how he portrays him.
With that out of the way, I will say well written post, I don't agree with most of it. And that has to do with point of view. This is Buffy's journey, not Spike's. Everything in their relationship has to do with where the writers want Buffy to go, not Spike. seen from that viewpoint, Spike has to come off as inconsistent. Spike has never been that subtle or had any ability to formulate an effective plot, een when he wasn't castrated by the chip. And his base behavior is evil/chaotic. The writers tried to write that subtely but when it didnt work they slammed us over the head with it (rather clumsily I agree). But in a way they did a masterful job because within those rather restrictive constraints they still created a compelling, ambiguous and interesing character who can lead us on 10000 hours of debate.
[> [> Not alone, just so tired -- Earl Allison, 14:20:29 06/24/02 Mon
Dochawk,
You're not alone, but you're right (IMHO), the hero's journey is Buffy's.
Last I checked, the titular character was Buffy -- which is why I'm really concerned with all the people talking about a spinoff with Spike -- we already have a show featuring a vampire -- it's called "Angel." :)
When I say tired, I mean it. I'm tired of trying to make alternate points that are, for many, unheard. While I respect most other views; the clumsy handling of Spike by writers (again, IMHO) coupled with the fanbase is making it less and less worth even putting forth my views on this. It generally only gets met with venom.
So I'm there if you need me, Dochawk -- you just need to ask. I'll try not to be so silent in the future.
"So, you see, what I told you WAS true, from a certain point of view."
And old Obi-Wan's statement is more and more true of interpretations of Buffy's cast lately -- what view do you want to expound, and no doubt you'll find what you need :)
Take it and run.
[> [> [> There's more of us than you'd think! I hope! -- Rahael, 14:33:59 06/24/02 Mon
So many great posters write on Spike, so eloquently. And the Spike fan base is very large. I enjoy Off-Kilter's posts, just as much as I enjoy a lot of other great regulars who are Spike fans.
But after awhile I just get a surfeit of Spike, Spike Spike and my generic reaction (and I'm stealing this phrase from someone who had better remain nameless).
"Great post, but the Spike part makes me yak"
Actually, I wouldn't mind if we got snarky Spike (usually in Mal's posts by the way) but it's Spike the romantic tragic hero that induces the yakky reaction. Just personal taste, guys.
No need to go run and hide Off Kilter! I'm the one who'll need protection now, lol.
Okay, I'm quaking in my boots now........
[> [> [> [> Are those your stylish, yet affordable boots Rah? -- Dochawk, 15:11:52 06/24/02 Mon
[> [> [> [> [> Always stylish, but sometimes unaffordable........ -- Rahael, 15:34:53 06/24/02 Mon
[> [> [> [> [> Count another among the less than Spike-centric -- Jane's Addiction, 15:49:21 06/24/02 Mon
The actor is great and, up until this season, I've always liked the character. But something about Spike has left me kind of cold this season. I've just grown rather weary of him for some reason.
I don't really subscribe to the idea that the show is all about Buffy's journey. I tend to look at it as being a journey for each character, but that's just my perspective. I haven't quite been able to put my finger on what it is about Spike that hasn't resonated with me as much this season.
It's troubling.
Maybe his cheekbones have gotten too darn high.
Regardless, it was a great post, Off-Kilter.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Count another among the less than Spike-centric -- Dochawk, 17:14:30 06/24/02 Mon
I agree there are other journeys. But each is subservient to Buffy's. And since Spike's job has always been Buffy's foil (since he first appeared in fact in School Hard), Spike is particularly beholden to this problem. I think getting his soul will free him from the Buffystory chain thats been around his neck, which will allow some other developments. He is the season 7 wildcard ranging anywhere from lovesick puppy to season 7 big bad or anywhere in between (though I doubt he will ever be between the sheets with Buffy again, see below)
I, too loved the character Spike prior to this season. And I like the story he went on, I really think it was the fan adoration, at the expense of Buffy, that made me go back and look at him. There are some other reasons, but they are personal (which have nothing to do with Spike, just the bad boy image he presents).
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> I'm sorry, I just like Spike so much more than Buffy.... -- Forsaken, 18:36:49 06/24/02 Mon
I really do. I love Buffy, she's the title character and we couldn't have the show without her. But seriously Spike is cooler, more confusing, more interesting. I like the fight scenes with him more (though I prefer the scenes with both of them) than I like Buffy's fights.
I also disagree that the characters all do nothing but further Buffy's story. It's true, but there is more to it than that because Buffy also serves to further the other characters' stories in the same way. And truthfully, I'd rather hear about Spike's journey than Xander the carpenter, or Willow the recovering Big Bad. I just hope the Soul doesn't change the boy too much.
[> [> [> [> Only two people I know who use the word "yak" -- Masq, 15:56:15 06/24/02 Mon
Me and Cordelia. Anyone else you know, Rah? : )
[> [> [> [> [> I'm sure I don't know what you mean! -- Rahael, 16:34:34 06/24/02 Mon
But it's quite obvious that it's a word reserved for the very cool ;)
[> [> [> [> [> [> doc, i hope your plank is very wide and over water, what with Rah standing beside you, yakking..:) -- zargon, 17:27:04 06/24/02 Mon
[> [> [> [> [> Xander did (Killed by Death) -- Vickie, 18:31:41 06/24/02 Mon
[> [> [> [> [> I prefer the word "yark." It sounds uglier somehow. -- Forsaken, 18:38:42 06/24/02 Mon
[> [> well, I guess you will be disappointed with next season -- iffy, 15:32:27 06/24/02 Mon
[> [> [> Oh? Do you know something we spoiler trollops don't? (possible season 7 spoilers) -- Dochawk, 16:30:33 06/24/02 Mon
Do you know something? We'd love to hear it. Just make sure ya label your post as a spoiler.
I would be very suprised for many reasons if Spuffy recurs. It doesn't advance Buffy's journey in the slightest. it sends a bad message (that its alright to go out with the "man" who tried to rape you) and three, talk about Angel redux, which Joss continues to say he doesn't want. Now I am perfectly aware that Joss lies so I am not sure if I buy that reason. SMG has been quoted in interviews that she does not expet them to get together again (although JM seems to imply they might). In addition, Jane Espenson recognizes the difficulty in bringing a woman and her would be rapist together as a couple. Most importantly, Buffy has made great strides at least recognizing what love is about and unless Spike got a great deal of maturity with his soul (and he is something different than the romantic loser that William is shown to be), Buffy has moved beyond what Spike has to offer.
[> [> [> [> Re: Oh? Do you know something we spoiler trollops don't? (possible season 7 spoilers) -- Arethusa, 17:25:38 06/24/02 Mon
I'm just afraid ME'll rationalize that since Spike is gone (gone, I tell you! Just as gone as Angelus!), a new Buffy/FormerlySpike relationship would be okay. It would be a relief for almost everyone if Buffy had a break from boyfriend trauma.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Oh? Do you know something we spoiler trollops don't? (possible season 7 spoilers) -- dochawk, 18:04:02 06/24/02 Mon
I hope and pray your wrong, but if they do they will get a hailstorm from the women's groups and they are already aware of it. They can't plead ignorance this time like they did with Tara's death. JE was very specific about the problems it poses and compared it to Luke and Laura (where this was done specifically because the fans asked for it, but soaps are written for fans without thought to plot). And there was a reaction about it even without the PC that exists now. Unfortunately sometimes Joss likes to get in controversy. But, it would have to be a pretty compelling reason to do it and I just don't see how it could be for Buffy's growth.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Oh? Do you know something we spoiler trollops don't? (possible season 7 spoilers) -- Elizabeth, 18:15:05 06/24/02 Mon
The thing is, Jane also said that SouledSpike can have sex without losing his soul which seems to me to be a red flag that they tend to pair SouledSpike off with *somebody*. Of course, it could be Halifrek or Drusilla but you never know...
[> [> [> [> [> I think you'll be happy to know . . . -- Off-kilter, 03:25:54 06/25/02 Tue
that ME is implying that Buffy will be boyfriend free for most of Season 7. 'Course, they could be lying. Fine by me if they don't try Spuffy again. It hurt to watch.
[> [> Hero's Journey and over-saturation of Spike -- Off-kilter, 19:57:33 06/24/02 Mon
I'm glad you found my post well written and I'm sorry that you are tired of people promoting Spike's story over Buffy's. I won't apologize for viewing the Hero's Journey through the lens of Spike. The show is called Buffy the Vampire Slayer, but it is an ensemble show, not just a one-note song. Sure, as I noted in my comic string, Buffy is the fulcrum, -the base from which everything springs. But that does not mean that the writers don't mean to make every main character's story (and many of the minor ones) less meaningful. ME tried, successfully, to make us resonate with aspects of all of the SG and even the several villains in the Buffyverse. They aren't just characters -they're people. They're family. No matter what anyone says, you will always like some members of your family better than others. You may love them all, but loving does not always equal feelings of kinship and camaraderie.
Buffy is close to my heart. I feel for her when she hurts and cheer for her when she triumphs. But she's not the reason I'm crazy about this show. If she was the one and only reason this show worked then Anne should have drawn me in when I watched it a few years ago. It didn't. If it weren't for the TV being on FX when WAH came on last Nov, I would never have this addition. The relationships, the loves, the lives of everyone in BtVS are the point for me. Once, I felt the story through the filter of Willow. Right now, I happen to see it through Spike.
"I'm not your sidekick"- Willow. She's not. None of them are. Every person has to undertake the hero's journey. This isn't about one blonde girl saving the world, it's about how we all contribute in our day to day struggles to keep the forces of evil from overtaking us.
"When I was young, I saw the troubles of the world and vowed to change them all. As an adult, I quailed at the impossibility of the task and decided to fix my country instead. As maturity set in, I found no one willing to see the rightness of my convictions and swore to correct my local community. Old age found me bitter with the knowledge of my failure. I spent my last years struggling to show my family the light. When death came to my door, to my chagrin, I realized that the only one I could have changed was myself, and from there the rest would have followed" -my misquote of someone wise
[> [> [> Supposed to be under the Plank thread above -- Off-kilter's all thumbs, 19:59:12 06/24/02 Mon
[> [> [> Re: Hero's Journey and over-saturation of Spike -- Rufus, 01:45:20 06/25/02 Tue
Buffy is close to my heart. I feel for her when she hurts and cheer for her when she triumphs. But she's not the reason I'm crazy about this show. If she was the one and only reason this show worked then Anne should have drawn me in when I watched it a few years ago. It didn't. If it weren't for the TV being on FX when WAH came on last Nov, I would never have this addition. The relationships, the loves, the lives of everyone in BtVS are the point for me. Once, I felt the story through the filter of Willow. Right now, I happen to see it through Spike.
Hey, fair enough that you see the Hero's Journey more through Spike at this point. Buffy is the "Hero" protagonist of the show, and in being the main "Hero" she is judged for faults that many may shrug past another character. It can be hard to love or even respect the almost too perfect "Hero" that is Buffy. Then there is Spike, imperfect at times pathetic, yet endearing Spike. He is a "geek" in tough guys clothes, he cries when he is hurt, and he makes mistakes, lots of them. He may be closer to a real person than Buffy, who has saved the world and in her seeming invincibility, is harder to feel sorry for, her abilities making her less than common. Buffy is still the show for me, her lovers less important than where she ends up in her journey. I love Buffy the best because I understand that to be the "hero" the one who saves instead of is saved, can make for a lonely life. What we excuse in lesser characters and villians is not in Buffy. So, go ahead and see the Heroes Journey through Spike, if people don't like it they can write about another characters journey...they are all heroes, except for those very bad villian types....;)
[> [> [> Agree! good response -- shadowkat, 06:39:58 06/25/02 Tue
I too felt close to Buffy this year. But Spike is the character that holds my interest the most. Why? Because he appears to be doomed to failure. Because he is the eternal outcast. BUT most of all, because no one on the internet
or the boards or anywhere outside of ME can predict what he will do next or where he is headed. We can predict all the other characters journeys but not his. Heck I can pretty much tell you what every other character will be doing next
year -but Spike? No clue.
Also I think Spike has the best character arc I've seen in the history of Btvs or television.
You said this far better than I could offkilter - good job.
[> [> [> [> Past TV parallels -- Fred, the obvious pseudonym, 11:32:12 06/26/02 Wed
Not the first time that a "secondary" character has grabbed audience attention away from The Great Hero.
To put a rough date on me, I remember seeing Star Trek, The Original Series, first run in the 1960s. Spock grabbed (and to some degree still grabs) viewers more than Captain Fantastic, James Tiberius Kirk. I read interviews with Trek-meister Roddenberry where he pointed out that the show was and remained KIRK'S show. Kirk, the great hero, was essential; Spock and McCoy were both there to personalize and provide exposition for the conflict between logic and compassion, cold decision and emotion, that such a Hero had to have. Replacing Kirk with Spock, Roddenberry said, was impossible; but the fans kept suggesting it.
(I personally would prefer either Spock or Picard as a CO over Kirk; a little less likely to get me killed, IMHO.) |=0
The 2002 equivalent is Buffy vs. Spike. Buffy is the core of the show, and, in fact, has far more human flaws than most of the Great Heroes in television history. As the Great Hero, however, she cannot in the last analysis fail; her weaknesses cannot overcome her. We all know this and seek this reliability. Spike is not so constrained; as such, with his potential for ultimate failure, he is far more (odd for a dead man) connected with us than the Great Hero. We may admire & seek to emulate the Great Hero, but the fallible sidekick is much more like us. Hence Spike's attraction.
A spin off would not work. "Spike the Vampire Slayer Slayer?" I think not. Then Spike, as the Great Hero, would have the same failings as Buffy; certainty of ultimate triumph.
"The fault, my dear Brutus, lies not in our stars but in our selves."
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Past TV parallels -- Finn Mac Cool, 13:07:08 06/26/02 Wed
I agree that Spike could never be the Great Hero and retain the charm that he has now.
The only way a Spike spinoff could be done well is if the creators were to rethink how a fantasy show is done. The traditional archetypes wouldn't work if Spike were ever given his own show. A fantasy show that breaks all the traditional rules would be intersting. Hmmmmmm.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Past TV parallels 9spoilers for end of Season 3 Angel) -- shadowkat, 18:51:05 06/26/02 Wed
"The 2002 equivalent is Buffy vs. Spike. Buffy is the core of the show, and, in fact, has far more human flaws than most of the Great Heroes in television history. As the Great Hero, however, she cannot in the last analysis fail; her weaknesses cannot overcome her. We all know this and seek this reliability. Spike is not so constrained; as such, with his potential for ultimate failure, he is far more (odd for a dead man) connected with us than the Great Hero. We may admire & seek to emulate the Great Hero, but the fallible sidekick is much more like us. Hence Spike's attraction.
A spin off would not work. "Spike the Vampire Slayer Slayer?" I think not. Then Spike, as the Great Hero, would have the same failings as Buffy; certainty of ultimate triumph.
"The fault, my dear Brutus, lies not in our stars but in our selves.""
Once again we agree...two for two. Yes I think you hit the nail on the head on why Angel doesn't quite work for me.
Aerustha states on another thread why it feels more existential then Buffy - perhaps she is right. I never took Philosophy in college and I'm a bit off on my theories.
But Angel always seemed to be more predictable - the star of the show, yes he's at the bottom of the ocean at the moment, but I know he'll be fine. I know he'll go for redeemption that eventually he'll be redeemed. No true worries. His path has become predictable to me.
Spike, like myself, I have no clue...he may or may not survive. He may or may not be redeemed. They could legitimately make him evil again as Finn Macool and a few other posters fervently hope. I pray they don't. It would hurt me so if they do...it would actually hurt me more if he became Mr. Big Bad again than it would if Angel became Angelus...why is that? For all the reasons you so clearly state above.
PS: Like you, I too preferred Spock and Picard to Kirk.
Kirk reminds me too much of No. 1 on Star Trek Next Generation...;-)
[> [> [> Yes, you are right -- shygirl, 08:14:36 06/25/02 Tue
I pointed this very thing out earlier and was derided for it. Prehaps by the younger folks who are still focused on the egocentric one person saving the world stage. From an old person's point of view, which is mine, you are absolutely right. This program is not as one dimensional as some would seem to want it to be. And as iffy mentioned... there will be some disappointment as the story arc's in a way that explores the development of a mature world view. I quite agree that Spike is bad for Buffy at this point in her development.... the same can be said for the reverse and I think that will be reflected in the story arc next season. It seems to me that we have a number of absolutists in this conversation who view people and the world in very black and white terms allowing no change for those that they dislike.
This is of course only an old woman's opinion. Bombs away! Have at it chickies!
[> [> [> [> Re: Yes, you are right -- shadowkat, 10:08:42 06/25/02 Tue
Am curious, what ages are we? On B C & S we did this once
and discovered age range was 10 -66.
I'm 35. yep old to some, young to others. I do know that
as time passes the black and white view of the world and absolutes change. Mine did. I shudder to think what
I thought and said at 25 - the world seemed to be so
simple - good guys on this side, bad guys on that side,
and I was sooo self-righteous. Then five years doing legal
aid, defender projects, law school and job hunting changed
me. Began to realize world isn't simple and there really
aren't any absolutes. Some people learn this at 20, some
at 30, some...never do. My brother who is only 3 years
younger still saw the world in absolutes up until recently, he's beginning to see it's not so much black and white as night and day...;-)
Old women like us shygirl should unite. ;-)
[> [> [> [> [> Generalisations -- Rahael, 10:48:51 06/25/02 Tue
Yes, I'm pretty young. 24.
But I'm rather curious that anyone can equate being a Spike fan with being more tolerant, compassionate and wise than those who don't find his character utterly fascinating.
I'm also curious that empathising with Buffy seems to mean that you have a hero complex, or that you view the world in easy black and whites.
Come on, this is a complex show - it does not lend itself to easy moral generalisations. What's the point of going on at length about how Spike breaks down moral generalisations if you then make assumptions about fans, their maturity (or lack thereof) and their outlook on the world?
The fact is that the show provides many different viewpoints. That's what dramas do. There are characters, they have different outlooks on the world. The authoritative, authorial voice is as elusive in the Buffyverse as the PTB. We are alone to make our judgements. Each are credible. One is not really more immature than the other.
Perhaps I could grow warmer to the Spike saturation if other points of view were equally present. I'm finding that the more I snark about Willow, the more I like her.
The thing is, we can debate the points til the cows come home, as strongly as you like. But we should respect the debater.
I'd tentatively put forward that a non Spike fan might find it in themselves to be mature, compassionate and wise.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Generalisations -- shadowkat, 11:03:20 06/25/02 Tue
Actually if you read my post carefully - you would have seen I carefully avoided saying: that non-Spike fans
were self-righteous. I don't believe that. Any more than
Spike fans are not. I think both groups have been strident
and rather immature in some of their posts. To the extent
that I have left boards over it. We can discuss this without hurting one another...Off-kilter put a great deal of work and time in her post, it may not have focused on Buffy, but that did not mean she hasn't thought of her.
Off-Kilter happens to identify closer with Spike. And she's a new poster...
I also thought I stated fairly clearly that you can be mature at 20 or at 60 or immature at 60. Maturity does not
come with age, it comes with experience and who and what
we've seen. Being tolerant of one another's views is difficult at times. I've had to curtail my own temper numerous times as posters bash Buffy, Willow, Xander, the writers and the show. If you've read my essays you'll realize I have fondness for all the characters. I do not have much tolerance for negativity towards them.
And that negativity has been expressed by people from the ages of 10 -60. There is not an age limit on maturity, unfortunately.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Wasn't really a reply to you -- Rahael, 11:07:40 06/25/02 Tue
Just a reply to Shygirl
I don't think I was disrespectful to Off-Kilter. If I was I'm really sorry. I think he/she is a great poster, and a very welcome addition to the board.
I think I have been disrespectful to Spike. But I don't think that Spike will care that much.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> thanks. and note on Spike (pro and con people) -- shadowkat, 12:28:16 06/25/02 Tue
Thanks it was under me and feeling vulnerable lately..so had knee-jerk reaction
LOL! Right on Spike. He'd probably say, "please, as if
I care!" And Marsters, who plays him would respect you for it.
No, you haven't been strident at all, well maybe on Willow a little, but I can understand that...DMP got me annoyed at her, actually more at Xander. In my response to shygirl,
I was thinking of you as one of the more mature members
of the board. Richard of York on BC &S is 19 and one of the most insightful posters around, while there are a few 30-60 year olds who I'd like to strangle. (no one on this board
that I know of).
Off-kilter is a she, btw. Very wonderful she. And great
addition. Didn't want her to get scared off.
Oh regarding the Spike people: both pro and con- Geeze. I wrote a post a while back, suggesting, just suggesting he would rape Buffy as a fatal attraction- it was entitled "Respect" and I posted it on this board and B C & S and I got attacked by the pro-Spike fans for daring to say he'd ever attack the girl he loved and attacked by the anti-Spike people for not clearly describing him as evil.
You can't win! I ended up leaving the B C & S board finally (They got all hot and bothered about my id essay and how I was stating sex was a dark impulse and Spike was bad - sex isn't and I didn't say it was anywhere in the essay , then they went on about my suggestion that Spike was a dangerous individual and how dare I say that...UGH!), ATP is actually pretty rational in comparison. I also got attacked when I posted my first Spike essay -it was fairly neutral, comparing him to the nasty protagonist in A ClockWork Orange and the anti-Spike people attacked me for posting about Spike at all. So I was hoping Offkilter won't get scared off from the same....AND we wonder why there's a hesistency amongst new posters???
People? Not you Rah, you're posts are wonderful and insightful, these people know who they
are - two words : GROW UP!!! Spike is not a hero, he's not scum of the earth...he's that funky grey. And most important of all - repeat after me, he is NOT real!!!
(sigh...sometimes I think we all need to join the same
encounter group, entitled way too obessed with Buffy for our own good.)
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Apologies -- Earl Allison, 12:40:47 06/25/02 Tue
If any of that was directed at me, I apologize.
Take it and run.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Nope not you Earl. -- shadowkat, 13:12:29 06/25/02 Tue
I read you're post, it was short, sweet and not blasting
anyone. But thanks for the thought. ;-)
Fireflyone...well he was another story.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> LOL.....I had another "erudite pr*ck poster" moments....must be the heat...;) -- Rufus, 16:44:09 06/25/02 Tue
So I was hoping Offkilter won't get scared off from the same....AND we wonder why there's a hesistency amongst new posters???
I have this bad habit of reading things and getting them a bit "off", so I read your sentence to be "So I was hoping Offkilter won't get scared off "from the insane"...
I blame the heat.....but somehow how I read it made a bit of sense....;)
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I was having my own knee jerk reaction -- Rahael, 17:36:55 06/25/02 Tue
I must say ShadowKat you never write as if Spike was the only character in BtVS - in fact your essays have been a constant source of food for thought about all the characters.
I did mention in my initial post how much I enjoyed Off Kilter's writing, and how so many wonderful posters posted on Spike. I just wanted to do a shout out to Dochawk and Earl Allison to let them know that there is a place for a contrary opinion, and for the very small group of posters who are not fascinated-by-Spike.
We aren't some really emotionally stunted repressed people who just haven't got to realise how Spuffy/Spike's journey will lead us into the path of spiritual equilibrium. We have perfectly good reasons!
I'm still waiting for my Damascene conversion. I remain immune to the cheekbones!!!!
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Chocolate, vanilla, strawberry. . . -- Off-kilter, hungry, 17:52:35 06/25/02 Tue
Everyone can enjoy a different ice cream. I'm fond of hazelnut and -recently- green tea flavor.
Rahael, not offended. You weren't disrespectful of me, and you're right - Spike could give a "bloody f***" and good for him. Understand that people are tired of Spike-obsessed people. Discussions about him can be tiresomely trivial. Just wanted the eye-roller's and impatient sigher's to realize that I wasn't bashing Buffy, and that I do see merit in other aspects of BtVS. I just like Spike. Really hate feeling like I should almost be ashamed of that fact. It's like admitting that you like Twinkies or Barney or reading National Enquirer or something.
Or liking some show called "Buffy the Vampire Slayer." LOL!
People who don't watch Buffy think I'm silly for watching such a show. People who don't like Spike think I'm shallow for liking the "bad-boy" with the cheekbones. People who know me realize that I'm both!
BTW if anyone out there thinks that I'm blind to Spike's faults because of my infatuation with his appearance doesn't know that I thought he was weird looking for the longest and he still strikes me as odd at times. *know YOU didn't say I was blind because of it, but I've gotten that opinion thrown my way a time or seven* Grown to appreciate his angles and punk look. Love him for his attitude and sarcasm, got some of that in me too.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Chocolate, vanilla, strawberry. . . -- Rahael, 18:09:57 06/25/02 Tue
You shouldn't be.
Stick around this board, and you'll find absolutely no stigma attached to liking Spike here. Nor do we make generalisations about the people who like Spike.
I get a little tired of the constant intimation that those who aren't electrified by the Spike arc are somehow not enlightened enough to do so. But enough about that. I'm shutting about Spike now. And Willow, for that matter lol.
But, don't look a gift horse in the mouth. All these querulous opinions will just keep your essay around longer!!!
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Chocolate, vanilla, strawberry. . . -- Dochawk, 18:56:02 06/25/02 Tue
First off I apologize if you got the impression I was disrespectful of your opinion regarding Spike. I admit to being somewhat defensive about my feelings about him, because on this board I am in the far minority, with the exception of Maladanza and Earl Allison (and occiaisonally a few others) regarding Spike. And I can't write about him here with dispassion. And shadowkat's right, I should probably stop reading posts about him, but then I wouldn't know you were erudite and your eagerly await your next post on a different topic. And I certainly don't think less of someone who likes Spike or even who watches BtVS simply because they like the curl of JMs brow and feel saddened if I made it feel like you should be ashamed of it. (now if you tell me something like Letterman is better than Leno, then you should be ashamed [and that was a lame attempt at a joke]). Life would be boring if all of us agreed on much more than we loved BtVS and the Jossverse.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Hmmmm the occasionally must mean me.....;) -- Rufus, 22:07:19 06/25/02 Tue
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Letterman vs Leno -- Off-kilter considering, 02:47:13 06/26/02 Wed
Hmmm . . . What would it mean if I told you I was teethed on Johnny Carson and no one else comes close? Think Letterman could wup Leno in a Celebrity Death Match, but only because he wouldn't fight fair.
I didn't feel you were disrespectful of me in the slightest. But I COULD see your eyes rolling and hear your patient sigh of exasperation in your post. LOL! You were polite, complimenting both me, ME, and Spike, but you're sick of talking about him. I get that. (I also get that this stupid show is messing with the way I talk)
Like I said to Rahael, I am patronized enough here at work and by my family for liking BtVS that when I feel I'm getting it for expressing my thoughts on Spike amongst peers I get a little irked. I can call myself a bubble-head, but I don't like thinking that others see me that way.
Hope you didn't think I was lashing out at you. Wasn't trying to put your back up, as it were. There have been a million and three different posts on Spike and 90% of them bring nothing more to the table than, "He's evil, eeevviill I tell ya!" or "He's been redeemed, the most wronged person in all of Buffyverse!"
I like to think that my thoughts are among the 10% (most of which I've found on this board) that offer a *tiny* bit of balance. . . Said I like to think that, but it's probably not true ;-) BTW Do you ever think of coupons when someone talks about redeeming him? It's just me huh?
I will, in all likelihood, be posting more about Spike although I do have a few ideas for "brain spills" that don't relate to him. Could skew that way if I don't watch it, however! Tell you what, I can put up a warning, like with spoilers, in the subject heading: If You're Sick Of Spike, Bring Your Barf Bag (IYSOSBYBB). That way you will have fair warning and be properly prepared should you decide to press on! No sarcasm, I mean it.
Thanks for your kind words about my post though you disliked the content! Erudite? What does that mean? Hee, hee . . . No seriously. I had to look it up! LOL!
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I was having my own knee jerk reaction -- shadowkat, 06:24:07 06/26/02 Wed
"We aren't some really emotionally stunted repressed people who just haven't got to realise how Spuffy/Spike's journey will lead us into the path of spiritual equilibrium. We have perfectly good reasons!"
Actually you may be more sane than the rest of us. LOL!
I know Marsters thinks so. He said in one interview,
"There were people out there that thought she should
have been nice to Spike after Crush, people, he chained
her up and hit her with a cattle prod..." Or "The writers
keep trying to remind everyone that he is evil, but you
guys ignore them, sickos..." LMAO!
Been a little afraid of admitting my liking of Spuffy, b/c
well...it does make me wonder about myself at times. LOL!
As for Spike's journey - nope don't see it in philosophical terms or like it for that reason - I like it from a pure
writing and character development perspective. NEver in my life have i seen a more detailed, complicated, wide
and controversial character arc. Can't predict it.
Is ambiguous and played by an actor who continues to suprise me. Don't really see any spiritual enlightenment in following his path, probably why his getting the soul
didn't bug me that much. Yes, I'm an existentialist, but I don't think Whedon is. Besides I see Buffy's journey as being more existential.
To be honest - Buffy is the character I clicked with the most this year. Everything she did, I completely understood.
And her journey continues to be the most enlightening for me.
Spike - well, his journey and the character obsesses me the most, it's brain candy, and vicarous sexual fun, and
cool angst. It's also thought-provoking, because it makes me wonder about what evil is, good is, how day fades into night, and if we truly can march to our own compass or are doomed to follow the one that has been already placed in front of us. Also is it possible to be forgiven? Can we forgive those who truly hurt us? And if not, are we doomed?
Are they? I wonder more and more about these questions as I grow older - particularly this past year. Because I keep hoping for a positive answer. Maybe there isn't one. And maybe my friends are right - I am a fool for looking for answers on a tv show or posting board. ; -)
Spike's character, the way ME has drawn it, raises questions in my head, that Angel/Angelus never quite did. I don't really know why.
Technically speaking Angel and Xander are better looking. So it ain't looks. Yet Spike, like the classic character Heathcliff in Wuthering Heights, Macbeth, Dracula, Alex in Clockwork Orange, James Dean in East of Eden, Marlon Brando in Streetcar Named Desire, AL Pacino in The Godfather, or some of the comic book villains such as Lex Luther or The Joker, continues to enthrall me. It might just be a writer thing, I like to write and create dark characters and try to redeem them, tough to do. Or let them be evil with odd shades of good thrown in. It interests me.
Not sure if that makes any sense to non-Spike obsessed.
But I do understand how some may not be into him. It's
like prefering chocolat ice cream over hazelnut or rocky road. Or Leno over Letterman. Or Brad Pitt over James Dean.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I was having my own knee jerk reaction -- Arethusa, 09:20:30 06/26/02 Wed
"Yes, I'm an existentialist, but I don't think Whedon is. Besides I see Buffy's journey as being more existential. "
Could you explain this, please, because I'm not sure I understand. I looked up existentialism again for something I want to write about "Angel", existentialism and the Powers That Be. I also took a class in existentialism and literature in college, but that was twenty years ago. I understood that characters in existential literature are searching for their place in the world, trying to distinguish between right and wrong, and between free will and determinism. I can see this applying to AI, but not the Scoobies. True, this year they have been dealing with the issues of gray morality, finding their place in the world, and the vagrancies of fate, but I don't see their journey over the past six years as existential. The adults at AI have all been torn from the path they thought they would follow, and the society they thought they belonged in. Angel was vamped, Wesley was fired, Cordelia was impoverished, Fred was lost, and Gunn's sister was killed. They all lost everything they thought they believed in. I just see the Scoobies as having a fairly clear sense of their purpose and right and wrong-although not as clear as they used to think it was.
Comments, clarifications, criticisms anyone?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: thanks. and note on Spike (pro and con people) -- Rufus, 17:37:20 06/25/02 Tue
You can't win! I ended up leaving the B C & S board finally (They got all hot and bothered about my id essay and how I was stating sex was a dark impulse and Spike was bad - sex isn't and I didn't say it was anywhere in the essay , then they went on about my suggestion that Spike was a dangerous individual and how dare I say that...UGH!), ATP is actually pretty rational in comparison. I also got attacked when I posted my first Spike essay -it was fairly neutral, comparing him to the nasty protagonist in A ClockWork Orange and the anti-Spike people attacked me for posting about Spike at all. So I was hoping Offkilter won't get scared off from the same....AND we wonder why there's a hesistency amongst new posters???
Congratulations on pissing off both sides by having an opinion....I do it all the time. I post on Spike, but never forget that before he got that chip he was the worst kind of self-serving villian you can get. He killed with with joy and bragged about it (and I think embellished his tales of glory as well). Getting the chip was only a catalyst to his own journey back to humanity. I know many posters feel threatened when anyone says anything derogetory twords their favorite character, but if you don't look at Spike in a fair way his progression to seeking a soul means little. For the soul Spike went for in Africa to have meaning, he had to go through trials as any hero would do. He was far from a hero before season five, his moment of true change was when he talked to "Buffy" after being beated by Glory.....he was willing to die so a human would not feel pain...that was the real beginning of his transformation. At the beginning of season five he wanted to kill Buffy, by the end of season five he openly wept at her death. If we forget the evil this character has participated in his journey to Africa loses it's impact. Is Spike selfish in getting a soul for the girl? I don't know, but he had to know that getting a soul would mean a spiritual pain he hadn't felt for many years.....so a new journey begins...one of facing the past, no stories of the "Big Bad" but emotions over what the vampire did to get his reputation. This may sound like Angel's journey and in a way it is, but as anyone knows people tend to find themselves on similar journeys all the time, only the name changes, well, and the destination....;)
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Wonderful post, again... -- shadowkat, 18:38:30 06/25/02 Tue
"Congratulations on pissing off both sides by having an opinion....I do it all the time. I post on Spike, but never forget that before he got that chip he was the worst kind of self-serving villian you can get. He killed with with joy and bragged about it (and I think embellished his tales of glory as well). Getting the chip was only a catalyst to his own journey back to humanity. I know many posters feel threatened when anyone says anything derogetory twords their favorite character, but if you don't look at Spike in a fair way his progression to seeking a soul means little. "
I agree. Actually I think those of us who see both sides are the most apt to predict where the writers are taking us.
I love your posts. They inspire some of my own. Of the posters on the board I rely on yours to give me the most impartial stance on where the characters are headed.
You are absolutely correct, sometimes we have to piss people off to state an opinion and not worry too much about it.
Oh gawd, I should be working on my portion of the Fanged Four Fanfic...right now. LOL!
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: excellent, elegant and excellent -- aliera, 19:38:19 06/25/02 Tue
Nothing to add except that I like your point about people being on the same journey. It's the first time I've seen that mentioned. It struck a chord, not just rhetoric.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> What beautiful insight that applies to both Spike and Willow -- shygirl, 06:35:17 06/26/02 Wed
I think both Willow and Spike will have moments of insanity over what they have done. William was much like Willow, a gentle soul who had little self esteem. Now they both have to face the monster within... and we have to participate in that journey with them as you indicate or their efforts are diminished... Well done.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> true, shygirl...sorry, I tend to be Buffy-centric -- aliera, 07:35:46 06/26/02 Wed
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> You're Welcome......:):) -- Rufus, 15:41:14 06/26/02 Wed
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> having a random moment -- ponygirl, 14:34:08 06/25/02 Tue
Why upon reading this do I want to yell, "Respect the Spike, and tame the doughnut"? It's a good thing I don't give in to these impulses in my open concept office space.
I think you're exactly right Rahael (not on any sort of Spike bashing, for that is wrong, wrong, WRONG) we should be respectful of the posters here, but the characters? Them we can bash 'til Tuesday.
except of course for Spike ;)
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> My stalwart, standing fast! -- Off-kilter, teary-eyed with gratitude, 17:32:16 06/25/02 Tue
Thanks 'kat! You've made my day. Never had a defender before. My Buffy! But, if I'm going to be Willow, do I *have* to give up magic? I promise to be REALLY careful from now on!
They haven't scared me yet. I know exactly what you are talking about with the B C&S upheaval. The flaming, ranting, and trivial nit-picks some people get obsessed with can give you a bleeding ulcer. Not naming names. No one here has reached ANYWHERE near that level for any of my posts!
Don't mind dissenting opinions. Just as long as they give me room for my own version. That's what this board is all about, trying to view the world through many perspectives to flesh out a 3-D picture of life. If you only look at an object from one angle you get a very flat effect. People have got to be willing to pick up, turn over (or even inside out), test the heft and texture of reality before they can truly say they have a good feel for this world.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Am I the only one who loves the disagreeing ? -- Etrangere, 15:49:38 06/26/02 Wed
What I mean is, sure, I love the talking between us, and the warm fuzzies feelings of feedbacks, and the Reciproque Admiration Societies (TM Rahael:), and that feelings you've got when someone understand axactly what you mean in your obsessionb while everyone else thinks you're crazy (and you are, point is, normality is such a relative thing:) but give me good debate ! I absolutly love reading of the other Spike fans and the awesome posts of people like shadowkat, redcat, ponygirl, Sophist (humm actually, I have debate with him but over other subjects...;), Arethusa, and lots of others, but how would I sharp my arguments as a Redemptionnista (option Humanity!Spike) if I hadn't the snarkiness of Maladanza, the acuteness of Dochawk or the "taking it and running" of Earl and ofcourse the wonderful and nuanced wisdom of Rahael.
I hate when its to say the same things again and again, but truly, the source of intelligent discussions comes from this different points of views, springs from the confrontation of arguments and how else would we learn and grow and build more ideas about the show, Life, the Univers and the Rest.
What's more valuable than a worthy opponant ? ;)
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> No! No! Nooooo! -- Off-kilter -not worthy, 18:33:41 06/26/02 Wed
Loooovvveee it!!!!!
*doing little happy jig in seat*
As I said up in my thanks to 'kat defending me, this is great! Not that I didn't get a swelled head and a warm glowing feeling from all the praise, but once the posts started going off to the right it became really FUN! And no one is resorting to low blows and hair pulling that have been the bane of many a board. This place really rocks.
By the way, the answer to Life, the Universe, and Everything is 42. Still looking for the question. *everyone groan at Off-kilter, she's used to it*
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> 42??? Are you sure?? I thought it was 48...wait, maybe that's in some alternate universe? (sigh) -- redcat, glad to be back & catchin' up on the threads, 20:47:41 06/26/02 Wed
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I confirm it's 42 :) -- Ete, 03:56:41 06/27/02 Thu
Not that it's an usable answer without the Question...
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> No! No! Love debates -- shadowkat, 07:23:05 06/27/02 Thu
No I love a healthy debate. Open mouth or write post and insert foot.
I wasn't complaining about that...oh gawd. What have I done?
See what you started Off-kilter? I respond to shygirl and Rahael...and we get this bizarre discussion.
Actually some of my favorite posters are the ones that occassionally and sometimmes often disagree with me: Mal, Sophist, Rufus, Caroline, redcat, cjl, Rahael...the list
is endless.
I'm just an extremely emotional person that's all. ;-)
Must have something to do with being a Piceses...
[> [> [> [> [> [> Thank you! -- Earl Allison, 11:38:08 06/25/02 Tue
Thank you so much for saying that one can hold certain views without automatically being considered immature, or seeing things in black-and-white.
Take it and run.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Thank you! -- shygirl, 17:32:04 06/26/02 Wed
Okay Earl, you're gonna have to explain the take it an run to the old lady!
[> [> [> [> [> [> You are absolutely right! -- shygirl, 13:21:48 06/25/02 Tue
it doesn't really have as much to do with liking or disliking any particular character... it has more to do with being willing to walk a mile in the other guys shoes and saying..."yes, you could be right." A particular character usually interests us because that individual somehow touches something within us... perhaps something in our own personal journey or our own personal demon... People don't usually pay attention to a story of any kind unless it grabs their gut somehow.... and when we react strongly to any particular "character" it may suggest a personal issue we personally are dealing with or avoiding. When people are adamantly against someone or something I can't help wondering what their personal issues are... it's just a thing I've developed over many many years of observing people.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Shygirl -- Rahael, 17:24:46 06/25/02 Tue
Before I overreact, I should mention that both your posts felt as though you were condescendingly defining people who do not like Spike, or love Spike, or think that the sun shines from his ass (abs?).
I would be a trifle wary of generalizing about how tolerant or open-minded a person is based on whether he or she likes Spike.
I suspect that all of us have personal issues, after all, just as all of us have opinions on Spuffy. Whether the negativity of the first can be correlated to the negativity of the second is improbable.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Shygirl -- Dochawk, 18:39:05 06/25/02 Tue
Rah, Thank You for saying this because the post I almost wrote would have just started a flame war.
Just suffice to say, I don't have to walk in Spike's shoes to know that he is basically an evil creature who occaisionally has flashes of humanity (though all motivated by his obsession with slayers). Yet, he is an extremely intersting character on our favorite tv show, but I get little of my world view from television and my life is far far fuller than being only a Buffy geek.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Yes, you are right -- shygirl, 13:11:37 06/25/02 Tue
I have three children in their 30s, one your age... and two grandchildren... I am MUCH older than you! :-)) And yes, I too shudder at what I asserted as absolutely true at 25. I have three degrees and studied much philosophy and psychology, but I believe I've learned more about what life is all about by the fact of living it. It doesn't turn out the way you think it's going to...and people are usually not what we think they are or should be.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Not so shy are we? -- Off-kilter, 17:36:51 06/25/02 Tue
Shygirl, us chickies appreciate hearing from you. I'm 28, but have been a Devil's Advocate for as long as I can remember (hee, hee. . .Devil. . . Spike! . . . umh, nevermind *sigh*). Sorry people were less than receptive to your point of view when you made a comment like mine. Guess when you're feeling the elephant's tusk, it's hard to imagine the wrinkles in his ears.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Not so shy are we? -- shygirl, 06:40:36 06/26/02 Wed
Well, actually not shy anymore... was many years ago... a lot like Willow actually... including her dark side... but cautious about expressing an old person's point of view. Stay the Devil's Advocate.... it is a lovely place to be even though you will be blasted, condemned and ridiculed. And remember when they throw stones at you.... it's because you hit a nerve... and that is a good thing, because it opens the opportunity for dialog... always a good thing.
[> [> [> [> [> P.S. I enjoy your posts enormously.... -- shygirl, 13:13:50 06/25/02 Tue
they demonstrate a great deal of mature insight into the hearts, minds, and souls of your fellow creatures! ;-)))
[> [> [> [> [> I'm a whopping 19 ... -- Exegy, 09:12:18 06/26/02 Wed
... hope the chronological age doesn't say anything about my level of maturity! Oh well, at least I have a partial excuse for some flippant comments I may make.
But I respect the opinions of pretty much everyone on this board, and so I hope I don't offend anyone with my own stance on the characters. Love to all.
Exegy
[> [> [> [> [> [> Respect for Exegy -- Fred, the obvious pseudonym, 11:42:23 06/26/02 Wed
I had thought from the quality of your posts that you were much older.
You show an ability to think and to express yourself that is quite remarkable. I hope that you will continue and progress.
You leave me behind now, and I am likely older than one or both of your parents.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I'm a whopping 19 ... -- shygirl, 13:02:17 06/26/02 Wed
take it from an old lady... chronological age may limit your experiences, but not your maturity. :-)
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Aw, thanks to both of you. And once again: love to all! -- Exegy, 14:08:41 06/26/02 Wed
[> [> [> [> [> [> Damned ! I'm beaten, I'm OLD ! -- Etrangere who's 20 coming on 21 now arghh, 15:52:37 06/26/02 Wed
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Get out! Get out! Get out! -- Doriander, 16:32:03 06/26/02 Wed
But...how can you two know sooo much? And be so articulate? And write with such authority? Ditto on the new found respect (surmounting the already established respect).
Doriander (22 in a month, but could easily pass for 12 on both looks and lagging maturity)
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> You kidding right Doriander ? Love your posts ! -- Ete who doesn't think she knows much but Exegy is admirable, 18:29:27 06/26/02 Wed
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Younger board members unite! -- Exegy, 18:50:43 06/26/02 Wed
Doriander and Ete ... I think your posts are utterly fab. You know more than you think you do! It just goes to show you ... chronological age is not the best measure of knowledge. Or maturity (Rahael is 24?!).
By the way, thank you both for the compliments. I'm a very studious person ... very well-read ... so hopefully my posts reflect my literary upbringing. I try to bring as much knowledge as I can to the great discussions. This board can be quite intimidating!
But I think we younger members hold our own for the most part. =)
Exegy--just a baby who likes to play with the big kids!
[> [> [> [> Hey, are you the shygirl (or is that not-so-shy girl) from the Bronze beta? -- Rufus, 18:16:28 06/25/02 Tue
[> [> [> [> [> A senior moment! -- shygirl, 06:42:45 06/26/02 Wed
hmmm, not sure. I did go there once. Can't remember if I posted or not.... senior moment doncha know. What did I say? Probably something silly.
[> [> [> [> [> [> A senior moment!....snerk......I seem to have more and more of those lately....;) -- Rufus, 15:43:39 06/26/02 Wed
I love silliness......it breaks the tension of any serious stuff.....like people are afraid of me enough already ..
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: A senior moment!....snerk......I seem to have more and more of those lately....;) -- shygirl, 17:30:42 06/26/02 Wed
I find you too interesting to be scary... but that's just me! ;-))))
[> [> [> Re: Hero's Journey and over-saturation of Spike -- Deeva, 09:03:19 06/25/02 Tue
Just want to say, excellent post and an even better response. Keep posting!
[> [> Experiment time.... Doc, what happens to your blood pressure when you see yet another ...... -- Rufus, 01:49:33 06/25/02 Tue
post about Spike, his cheekbones, his sock, etc, etc....
Of course I now have this visual of Spike making Doc walk the plank for disrespecting the "sock".......maybe you'll see Angel down there......;)
[> [> [> And why do you read it Doc? ;-) -- shadowkat, 06:46:49 06/25/02 Tue
[> dodging planks and such to say great post! -- ponygirl, 08:40:28 06/25/02 Tue
Another fabulous essay Off-kilter (hey, if we called you by your initials you'd be O-k, hehe... nevermind, just ignore me). I never felt that there were inconsistencies in the way Spike's character was written, the character himself is inconsistent. Your take on his motivations this year, and Buffy's part in it, is dead on (and I agree completely with the flaws you point out in AYW). Typically Joss himself acknowledges the contradictions within Spike - his songs in OMWF pretty much capture Spike's seesaws perfectly: after singing that he wants to be left in peace, he plaintively asks why Buffy's leaving, and of course the "I'm free if that bitch dies/I better help her out" lyric which ended up foreshadowing Spike's attitude in the finale. Another reason to love ME, just when you think they actually have a flaw you realize they're doing it on purpose!
[> [> Ignore you? Never! -- Off-kilter, 18:23:59 06/25/02 Tue
I'm O-k, you're just off. LOL! Glad I'm not the only one able to laugh at myself. Thanks for the compliments and keep up the zingers. Life's not all sturm'n'angst.
[> [> [> You're the coolest, Off-kilter! And thanks for starting such an interesting thread -- ponygirl, 07:55:23 06/26/02 Wed
New story from Rowan & new essay from Spotjon -- Solitude1056, 09:41:57 06/24/02 Mon
Posted on the fictionary corner... look for the top selections, marked with NEW!. ;-)
[> Re: New story from -- Brian, 10:49:14 06/24/02 Mon
Can't seem to get email to work, So...
More, Please. I want so more!
Nice job on the characterizations. Their speech patterns are just right. Story is moving forward at a great emotional pace.
[> Yay! Both are just great! -- Vickie, 11:11:42 06/24/02 Mon
I couldn't make the site feedback thingy work, so here is my feedback:
I second Brian. Please give me more!
[> [> yes, I know... the site feedback form is awaiting Liq's touch. -- Solitude1056, 20:13:05 06/24/02 Mon
Also known as "it uses a CGI script that I don't have on the site, and a certain someone who's too busy all the time these days (who also happens, for once, to not be me) hasn't sent me the proper change in the script so the feedback forms will work correctly" ... but I remain hopeful that we'll get that fixed soon. ;-)
[> Both were very, very good. Nice to see work from both spotjon and rowan. :-) -- Dedalus, 14:17:49 06/24/02 Mon
[> Thank you! -- Rowan, 17:41:57 06/24/02 Mon
I'm glad you like it! And I have to thank our own Dead Soul, Lady Starlight, and Julia for the great beta and collaboration on the story.
Chapter 4 is on its way. :)
[> [> I bookmarked your story.....my printer isn't working.....damn! -- Rufus, 05:36:14 06/25/02 Tue
[> [> Very good story! Loved it -- shadowkat, 06:06:55 06/25/02 Tue
And it is the best Season 6- Season 7 fanfic I've read to
date. Read five so far, this one feels the most true to all the characters. Good job.
Eagerly awaiting the rest.
[> [> [> Re: Very good story! Loved it -- Rowan, 06:29:42 06/25/02 Tue
Thank you; that's very flattering. :) I just finished Chapter 4, so I'm sure that'll be posted soon. I write about a chapter a week.
[> Rowan's CHAPTER FOUR is up, for latest story ;-) -- Solitude1056, 21:20:16 06/24/02 Mon
[> [> Thanks Liq and Sol; you guys are so quick. :) :) :) -- Rowan, 06:30:51 06/25/02 Tue
[> [> [> It's easy when it comes already coded... ;-) -- Solitude1056, 07:09:49 06/25/02 Tue
We'll try this again - where's everybody located? -- Darby, 14:18:08 06/24/02 Mon
A few months back, I asked where people were posting from - listed below are the responses. Let's update - where are you now, if you've moved, and let's add to the list!
This works best by just putting your responses in the message lines...
A8 - Baghdad by the Bay (SF)
Aquitaine - West Island of Montreal
AurraSing - In the southeast Kootenays (British Columbia)
Bob R - Kansas City, KS
Brian - Louisville Kentucky via Troy New York & Boston
Cactus Watcher - Phoenix, Arizona
Calluna - Port Orchard, Washington - Across Puget Sound from Seattle
caltrask55 - Randolph Massachusetts!!!
CaptainPugwash - Channels Islands (UK) - the original 'Jersey'
cat - Indianapolis, Indiana
celticross - Middle of Nowhere, Kentucky - not far from the Tennessee border
Chew-lean - Atlanta/Decatur, Georgia (for 6-7 months out of the year) & Florida
Clarity (and Polyhymnia) - Stafford, Virginia, USA...an hour south of Washington D.C., an hour north of Richmond VA
Copper - Currently, Phoenix, Arizona
CW - Rocky Mountains - Waterton Park, Alberta
cynesthesia - San Jose, California
Cynthia - Manhattan, New York City, New York
Dariel - Brooklyn, New York
darrenK, - Brooklyn, New York
Deeva - San Francisco, California
Dichotomy - Beautiful, sunny, Denver, Colorado, USA
Duquessa des Esseintes - Phoenix, Arizona
Dyna - Unseasonably not-freezing Chicago!
Earl Allison - About twenty miles north of Boston, Massachusetts
Eric - Oklahoma, from Santa Barbara / Sunnydale
FelipeRijo - Porto Alegre, the southernmost state capital of Brazil
Forsaken - Arkansas
fresne - San.Francisco. Bay Area, California
ghostdawg - Iowa City, Iowa
GreatRewards - Seattle, Washington, USA
grifter - Vienna, Austria
Hauptman - Boston, Massachusetts
Humanitas - Central Florida
Isabel - Schenectady, New York
JCC - Ireland
Jen C. - Berzerkely California
JLP - Columbia, Missouri, halfway between Kansas City and St. Louis
JoRus - Just N of Seattle, Washington
Juliette - Birmingham, England
Kimberly - Northeast New Jersey (Commuter Town)
LadyStarlight - Rocky Mountains - Waterton Park, Alberta
Leaf - Perth, Western Australia
Little One - By Dogs-Nest, Ontario (A Farmer's Daughter)
Loki - Manchester, England
Lunarchickk - Northwest NJ - Jersey girl, born & bred :)
maddog - Portsmouth, New Hampshire
Marie - N. Wales
Masquerade - San Francisco
matching mole - Urbana, Illinois, USA
matching mole - Buffy friendly British Columbia
Millan - Sweden
MrDave - Annapolis, MD
nay - between Baltimore & Washington DC, MD. USA
Neaux - Durham, North Carolina
njbethany - Atlanta, Georgia
NonHostileSeventeen - Long Island, New York
OnM - Southeast Pennsylvania, due west of Philadelphia
pagangodess - Small town Ontario, near Ottawa
rahael - London
Rattletrap - Norman, Oklahoma
Rob - Rockland County, NY...about 40 minutes from the City
rowan - Southeastern Pennsylvania, USA
Rufus - British Columbia
Sebastian - Milwaukee, Wisconsin
The Second Evil - An hour west of Washington DC
Shaglio - Northeast Massachusetts -Danvers, MA
Sharon - Johannesburg, South Africa
Shiver - Northwest New Jersey (relocated from West Virginia)
skpe - Irvine California (5 minutes south of Disneyland)
Slayrunt - Akron, Ohio
solstice - New Orleans, Louisiana
Sophie - New York, New York
Spike Lover - East Texas
squireboy - Toronto, Canada
Stranger - Suburb of Paris
SugarTherapy - Suburbs of Minneapolis, MN
Talia - Atlanta, School in Philadelphia
Tillow - Southeast NY/Bordering Jersey
tost - Roswell, New Mexico
Tracton - Be'er-Sheva, Israel
valkyrie - Fort Worth, Texas
vampire hunter D - Susquehanna Valley in Pennsylvania
VampRiley - Southeast Pennsylvania, North of Philly.
verdantheart - Provo Utah
Wilder - Rock Hill, South Carolina
Wisewoman - Another Bristish Columbia!
yabyumpan - Hackney, East London. UK
Zoey - Clemson South Carolina
zoomusicgirl - Warner, New Hampshire
[> Danvers, Massachusetts (about 20 miles north of Boston) -- Earl Allison, 14:25:39 06/24/02 Mon
[> Chicago, Illinois -- Belladonna, 14:32:56 06/24/02 Mon
[> Farmington, Utah (20 min from Salt Lake City) -- pr10n, 14:41:47 06/24/02 Mon
[> chicago -- heather galaxy, 14:50:08 06/24/02 Mon
[> Dallas, Texas -- agent156, 14:51:51 06/24/02 Mon
[> [> ditto -- ZachsMind, 16:50:49 06/24/02 Mon
[> [> [> We had a Dallas meet last Sat., anyone interested in another sometime, email me -- zargon, 17:34:27 06/24/02 Mon
[> [> [> [> How'd that go, zarg? Have fun? -- Masq, 17:55:05 06/27/02 Thu
[> [> [> [> [> 8.5 hours of Buffy, come to the next one, Masq! :) -- zargon, 19:44:25 06/27/02 Thu
[> [> also from Dallas, Texas -- keldari (lurker), 11:02:32 06/27/02 Thu
[> Columbus, Ohio -- LittleBit, 15:13:07 06/24/02 Mon
[> [> Columbus? Really? Me too! -- tim, 10:41:03 06/25/02 Tue
[> [> [> Me three -- J, 12:35:53 06/25/02 Tue
[> [> Do you know the writer of the article mentioned above by Dream of the Consortium? -- Darby, 10:50:45 06/25/02 Tue
[> [> [> No, but she has some interesting articles out there -- LittleBit, 15:23:23 06/25/02 Tue
[> Tennessee -- ravenhair, 15:20:42 06/24/02 Mon
[> [> Wish I were in Murfreesboro, Nashville, or Memphis . . . -- Off-kilter-but I'm in Yokosuka, Japan, 20:44:08 06/24/02 Mon
[> [> [> Wow, Japan - Salute! -- ravenhair, 21:59:55 06/24/02 Mon
Summer months can be grueling (although nothing beats New Orleans, IMHO), but Tennessee is beautiful. Hope you visit soon!
[> [> [> [> Sweltering southern summers -- Off-kilter nostalgic, 03:17:51 06/25/02 Tue
Preaching to the choir, ma'dear. Believe in living south of the Mason-Dixon line if at all possible. Proud graduate of Memphis State; can't wait to visit the 'rents in Christiana (45 miles from Nashville) as soon as leave permits.
Only other place I'd consider settlin' in would be San Diego. No 'skeeters - it's a desert.
Been to N. Orleans in Aug. You could dissolve in the heat and humidity. And what's with the rest stations not having AC?
[> [> [> [> [> Memphis State Alum! -- Darby, 09:49:22 06/25/02 Tue
Me too, got my M.S. there (and you must have graduated a while back if you didn't call it U of M! Funny, my other school went from SUNY Albany to Albany State...must be symmetry, I guess).
I really don't miss the South at all, in fact I was happy to get out. I've lost my tolerance for hot weather, though.
[> [> [> [> [> [> home sweet home -- ravenhair, 13:02:26 06/25/02 Tue
Gee, sorry you had a less than pleasant experience in dixieland. :(
I've lived here all my life and STILL can't get used to the heat!!
Yeah, Memphis State (Tiger High) has changed its name and made some improvements....the library is very nice and they're constructing new buildings. It's completely different from when I was a student.
If you haven't guessed by now, I live just outside of Memphis. :)
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Class '96 -- Off-kilter, 14:47:22 06/25/02 Tue
Refuse to call it U of M, though my class was the first "official" one with the new name. Library was there when I went, the old one was scary! NROTC hooked me and stationed me out here on the other side of the world. Used to live off of Summer Trace, almost in Bartlett. Miss me some Rendezvous BBQ, and Cafe Expresso's White Chocolate Mousse Cake. Heck, here in Japan, I miss Perkins!
Still can't get away from the heat. Japan's summer is almost exactly like Memphis down to last stupid mosquito! Except the typhoons, of course. I'm serious about San Diego coastline. No seasons, no 'skeeters. Hmmm. But the people are kind of kooky.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> The Memphis Library Story -- Darby, 15:54:37 06/25/02 Tue
...as I was told it. I don't know if it is true, but I believe it.
The Memphis State University Library (old version) was designed to have a nice tower for the books to live in, and the engineers and architects carefully figured out how much support the tower needed...without factoring in that lots and lots of books are HEAVY! The tower had some major settling issues, and now will be used for administrative offices (the counteracting buoyancy effect of hot air, one supposes...).
I enjoyed being at the University, but it has some weird features - like waiting 10-20 minutes for a freight train to go by (and slow down while doing it - the yards are about a mile away) so you can cross the tracks between the parking lots and the main campus.
And ravenhair, when I was in Memphis there was almost no such thing as "just outside." There was the city, a very narrow ring of suburbs (a bit more in some spots, nonexistent in others), and then lots of wide open space. And West Memphis, which didn't count (don't ask).
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> The sound of trains -- Off-kilter, 16:06:54 06/25/02 Tue
rumbling down the track and whistling their warnings has been a constant through my childhood. In Germany they're so long that you'd turn off your car and chat with the other people waiting. Trains here in Japan don't rumble as much. They're politely quiet; it's kind of eerie.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> suburbia -- ravenhair, 20:44:10 06/25/02 Tue
Well, I live in that "narrow ring" of suburbs. Most of the surrounding communities have been annexed. Several people commute from northern Mississippi because the cost of living is cheaper. Not so much wide open spaces these days, unless you visit the very rural areas such as Tipton County.
You're right about the trains on Southern. I hated parking on that side of the campus. It was an obstacle course just trying to get to class! There is a parking garage actually on campus now, but I'm sure the fee is outrageous.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Haunted Library -- ravenhair, 13:12:34 06/26/02 Wed
My husband was trying to remember a story he had heard about a one handed ghost at the old library. I have no doubt that place was haunted! The top floors were so dark and creepy.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> southern comforts -- ravenhair, 20:16:12 06/25/02 Tue
BBQ doesn't get better than The Rendezvous! Memphis in May is awesome, but I missed the music fest this year. You must be really homesick if you miss Perkins!
A friend of mine used to live in San Diego and he can't say enough nice things about the city. I've travelled quite a bit but never to California -- something on my "to do" list for certain!
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Yay BBQ Pizza! -- Darby, 07:15:05 06/26/02 Wed
I miss BBQ pizza more than anything else about Memphis. Is that pathetic?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> You must be talking about Garibaldi's! -- ravenhair, 13:14:35 06/26/02 Wed
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Yup! -- Darby, 20:23:03 06/26/02 Wed
[> Raleigh, North Carolina -- Jane's Addiction, 15:29:36 06/24/02 Mon
[> [> Detroit, MI -- Rochefort, 21:25:11 06/24/02 Mon
[> [> [> Southern MI -- Elizabeth, 17:57:49 06/27/02 Thu
I am in Michigan, about an hour from Detroit and a few miles from the Ohio border.
[> [> Raleigh too! -- MaeveRigan, 06:02:28 06/25/02 Tue
[> [> Your'e kidding me!! Durham, NC -- neaux, 06:14:31 06/25/02 Tue
[> [> [> NC Buffy fans -- MaeveRigan, 06:21:19 06/25/02 Tue
Time to round up Neaux, Traveler, & Jane's Addiction for an RTP BuffyFest?
Um. Just don't ask me to plan anything--I'm terrible at that stuff.
[> [> [> [> sounds like a plan to make a plan -- neaux, 07:30:10 06/25/02 Tue
Yeah.. I'd be more than willing to chill out with some fellow AtPoBTVS'ers but (ahem) if some one is willing to set something up.. I'm there.
(sits and waits)
[> [> [> [> [> I'm the Dip. Well, you know ... -- Jane's Addiction, 21:59:00 06/25/02 Tue
That is to say, I could bring the dip to any "planned to be planned" event.
I'm known far and wide for my ability to open things and stir ...
[> Seattle, WA, USA (still) -- GreatRewards, 15:30:52 06/24/02 Mon
[> West suburban Chicago -- Lilac, 16:09:14 06/24/02 Mon
[> Los Angeles -- Sophist, 16:09:56 06/24/02 Mon
[> [> Re: Los Angeles ditto (Santa Monica, actually--lower temps! but higher rents!) -- leslie, 12:33:50 06/25/02 Tue
[> [> [> I'm in Mar Vista and -- Sophist, 12:56:52 06/25/02 Tue
my daughter goes to Samo High.
[> [> [> [> Re: I'm in Mar Vista and -- leslie, 13:58:15 06/25/02 Tue
I work in Pasadena and let me tell you, I thought about moving out here to cut down the commute, but every time I go outside at lunch and feel the heat and breathe the smog, I think nope, I'm stayin' on the Westside! Even if my apartment isn't big enough to swing two cats (which I know because I have two cats and I've tried....)
[> [> [> [> [> Well I'm in Brentwood, and I work in the Valley -- Dochawk, 14:16:16 06/25/02 Tue
[> Arcata CA - on coast, 80 mi. south of OR border -- Dead Soul, 16:21:50 06/24/02 Mon
[> [> Re: Arcata CA - on coast, 80 mi. south of OR border -- Masq, 16:24:18 06/24/02 Mon
Dead Soul,
Boy, if you could find the time to drive down to the Bay Area in August for the next SF posting board meet, we'd love to meet you. Not sure of the date for it yet. : )
[> [> [> Re: Arcata CA - on coast, 80 mi. south of OR border -- Dead Soul, 16:29:18 06/24/02 Mon
I'm planning too - just waiting to know which days to ask off for (which days for which to ask off?). Thanks for the personal and particular invite.
Dead Soul, who is polishing her bells.
[> [> Re: Arcata CA - on coast, 80 mi. south of OR border -- Gellis, 12:45:27 06/27/02 Thu
To Dead Soul
Just read your from Arcata. I recently moved to Mckinleyville from Phoenix Arizona. I have never posted on the discussion board before but have been enjoying it since I moved here. Would you be interested in meeting. If not, no problem, just thought I would take the oppertunity to ask.
To Masq and all the ATPoBtVS posters. Thank you for many hours of opinions, arguements and insights. I always come away feeling impressed and thinking as well as less lonely for far away friends.
Gellis
[> [> [> Just drop me a line, Gellis -- Dead Soul, 21:10:45 06/27/02 Thu
[> Southeast Kootenays,B.C. -- AurraSing, 16:29:34 06/24/02 Mon
[> S.Wales UK -- O'Cailleagh, 16:30:54 06/24/02 Mon
[> Vancouver, BC, actually. ;o) -- WW, 17:04:11 06/24/02 Mon
[> [> I'm a half hour away from WW....:):) -- Rufus, 05:33:29 06/25/02 Tue
[> [> [> Even at rush hour??? ;-) -- AurraSing, 16:51:39 06/25/02 Tue
[> [> [> [> Okay, okay.....if you are talking the speed limit....add 15 minutes to the time..:):) -- Rufus, 22:05:48 06/25/02 Tue
[> [> [> [> [> As I figured..... -- AurraSing, 09:54:51 06/26/02 Wed
...so far the ONLY people I know or are related to by marriage that live less than 40+ minutes apart are my brother-in-law Rob and the breeder that we just bought a dog from.And they are only less than 40 minutes apart when it's not rush-hour for the Albion Ferry!!
It's like some sort of vast conspiracy-you cannot go to Vancouver and not spend at least 1.5 hours in your car going to and from someplace to visit....and the drive from my in-laws out in Abbostford into downtown Vancouver just makes me cringe to think of it.At rush hour I just want to crawl into the backseat and go to sleep.
I'll drive anywhere in Calgary but I don't even touch the wheel in the Fraser Valley!
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: As I figured..... -- Rufus, 15:38:15 06/26/02 Wed
I don't do rush hour at all.....did it for many years and got sick of it. I ended up working in a place going in the opposite direction to the busiest traffic.....
My husband drives, I critique his driving......specially when he goes through the occasional yellow light (he should know better)....:)
[> Houston, Texas -- Arethusa, 17:13:06 06/24/02 Mon
[> [> Re: Houston, Texas -- minasrevenge, 17:51:47 06/25/02 Tue
Another from Houston, Texas...we have an active Houston Buffy Fan Club here.
[> Long Island, NY -- Non-Hostile Seventeen, 17:43:38 06/24/02 Mon
[> Rockford, Illinois -- Exegy, 18:10:13 06/24/02 Mon
[> Santa Clara, CA -- Vickie, 18:21:17 06/24/02 Mon
[> Just outside Philadelphia Pennsylvainia -- Majin Gojira, 19:08:54 06/24/02 Mon
[> A tad south of Montgomery, AL (NT) with question for Rattletrap -- Rendyl, 19:57:17 06/24/02 Mon
Rattletrap,
You in school at Norman? I went to high school at Chickasha and we used to go to Norman for concerts.
Ren
[> [> Re: A tad south of Montgomery, AL (NT) with question for Rattletrap -- Kitt, 22:06:18 06/24/02 Mon
someone else out here in the sticks, huh? e-mail me and we can compare notes!
[> Phoenix, AZ (NT) -- Cheryl, 20:07:40 06/24/02 Mon
[> [> Re: Phoenix, AZ. Me, too! -- Cactus Watcher, 04:36:27 06/25/02 Tue
[> [> [> Oops! Secret identity -- Cactus Watcher, 05:00:39 06/25/02 Tue
I could appologize uslessly for posting before reading Darby's post directly. but this gives me a chance to make a small correction. CW is short for Cactus Watcher. And I was saying how much I enjoyed LS's mountain hometown in the last thread on this topic, not saying I lived there. Think the same is true for Matching Mole about BC.
[> [> [> [> But... (matching mole! Help!) -- Darby, 05:11:31 06/25/02 Tue
I seem to remember that, bizarre as it seemed (and seems), there were actually TWO matching moles posting back when the first list was compiled. Have I been wrong about that all this time?
Sorry, CW, in your case when I went through and cleaned up the list for posting I was wondering about that, but didn't take the trouble to go back to the original thread. That, and I probably couldn't have known for sure, there could have been a "CW" lurking.
[> [> [> [> [> While we're on the subject -- CW, 05:43:57 06/25/02 Tue
Stranger now calls herself Etrangere or Ete. Thank goodness for those first where-do-you-live posts. Without it, we might have lost her. She's told us, that she was getting pretty discouraged.
[> [> [> [> [> Re: But... (matching mole! Help!) -- matching mole, 08:46:31 06/25/02 Tue
Nope, only one of me (which is probably more than enough). The Urbana locale is the right one (although I would rather be living in B.C. all other things being equal). The 'Buffy-friendly B.C.' post was actually a comment to WW about how many BtVS fans there seemed to be out there. Sorry if this confused you.
[> [> [> Re: Phoenix, AZ. Me, three! -- Copper, 15:32:46 06/26/02 Wed
[> You going to do a worldmap with everyone's location? ;-) -- Solitude1056, 20:16:56 06/24/02 Mon
[> [> Maybe a regionalized set of lists... -- Darby (in upstate NY, NW of Albany), 04:32:37 06/25/02 Tue
[> NE Florida -- Cleanthes, 20:24:32 06/24/02 Mon
[> Same as before -- Southeast Pennsylvania, north of Philly. -- VR, 21:13:18 06/24/02 Mon
[> [> Southeastern PA, northwest of Philadelphia -- Rowan, 06:28:29 06/25/02 Tue
[> [> Upper Bucks County, SE PA -- Akita, 08:43:20 06/25/02 Tue
But I consider myself merely to be in temporary exile from my beloved Washington, DC!
[> [> Likewise the same-- SE PA, west of Philadelphia -- OnM, 16:38:06 06/25/02 Tue
[> Brent, Alabama - aka MFN (south of Birmingham and east of Tuscaloosa) -- Kitt, 21:20:58 06/24/02 Mon
[> Central Connecticut -- Arya_Stark, 21:37:19 06/24/02 Mon
[> [> Southwestern Michigan -- eldersister2000, 15:17:18 06/25/02 Tue
Midway between Chicago & Detroit
[> Chapel hill, North Carolina -- Traveler, 01:44:52 06/25/02 Tue
[> [> If we put Traveller, neaux, and Jane's Addiction together, can we have our own ACC tournament? -- d'Herblay, 02:19:31 06/25/02 Tue
[> [> Hey Traveler, have you always been in ChapelHill?? -- neaux, 06:19:35 06/25/02 Tue
or are you just traveling through?
[> Portland, Oregon reporting for duty! -- Julia wondering when the road trip's pulling up to her door, 03:30:01 06/25/02 Tue
[> [> JULIA! -- Rahael, 03:46:53 06/25/02 Tue
What a lovely surprise I had this morning!
I am inexpressibly grateful. It will stand as a bright spot in a pretty crappy day.
Big hugs :)))))))))))))))
By the way, still in London - trying to keep this somewhat on topic!
[> [> I'm in Portland too! -- newmoon, 16:09:54 06/25/02 Tue
[> [> [> And me makes three for Portland! -- Jon, 17:17:10 06/25/02 Tue
[> [> [> [> and here i was thinking i was all alone here in town! -- julia who's now all warm and fuzzy (course it is hot today), 17:31:44 06/25/02 Tue
[> [> [> [> [> Me too. Maybe a local event will be in order some day. -- Jon, 12:17:52 06/26/02 Wed
[> [> [> [> [> [> That would be wonderful. Let's get it together! -- julia in her stifling apartment, 17:37:18 06/26/02 Wed
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Hmmm, should we wait for an excuse? -- Jon, 17:56:02 06/26/02 Wed
...like the fall premiere or something? What would be fun?
I haven't been making it to the board real regularly lately (I really only visit when I'm slacking at work...which I shouldn't be doing), but let's keep in touch. I can be reached at rossj@lanepowell.com.
Yup, it sure is hot out there today.
Jon
[> Lonely in Washington, D.C. -- Caroline, 05:41:19 06/25/02 Tue
Why are there so few buffyphiles in DC?
[> [> Re: Lonely in Washington, D.C. -- Ronia, 15:21:35 06/27/02 Thu
Don't be lonely, I'm here too... :0)
[> Well, at this exact moment, I'm in Florida, but usually...same place! -- Rob, 05:46:10 06/25/02 Tue
[> Brooklyn, New York -- shadowkat, 06:02:06 06/25/02 Tue
[> [> Ditto. -- cjl, 06:50:04 06/25/02 Tue
[> [> nyc! but i'll be in... -- anom, 15:21:16 06/25/02 Tue
...Syracuse over July 4th weekend. Anyone nearby want to get together if we can arrange a time?
BTW, I replied to your first location post, Darby, but I'm not listed in your post starting this thread. Wha'happened?
[> [> [> Durned if I know...screwed up, I guess... -- Darby, 19:59:42 06/25/02 Tue
[> [> Queens. We band of buggered bridge n' tunnel people... -- Doriander, 08:00:30 06/26/02 Wed
[> Portsmouth, England -- John Burwood, 06:40:48 06/25/02 Tue
[> Still in London, Waving to Rahael over the river :-) -- yabyumpan, 06:41:17 06/25/02 Tue
[> Cambridge, MA (amazed we have 2 from Danvers but no one else from Cambridge?) -- dream of the consortium, 07:03:01 06/25/02 Tue
[> [> Re: got one from newton -- tam, 11:22:24 06/25/02 Tue
[> [> Who else is in Danvers? Did I miss it? -- Earl Allison, 16:17:11 06/27/02 Thu
[> Toronto, going to school in Waterloo, Canada -- Scroll, 07:04:10 06/25/02 Tue
[> San Francisco, CA, and in 1.5 months, Montreal, Quebec. -- yuri, 08:27:48 06/25/02 Tue
[> Saratoga, CA (Silicon Valley) -- Liquidram, 09:38:10 06/25/02 Tue
[> Albany, NY -- aliera, 10:14:36 06/25/02 Tue
[> Re: Milwaukee, WI (wishing it was Oregon!) -- Cydney, 11:40:01 06/25/02 Tue
[> Upstate NY, near Canada :) -- Purple Tulip, 12:28:09 06/25/02 Tue
[> Vallejo, CA (30 miles north of Oakland)(NT) -- Buffyboy, 13:36:41 06/25/02 Tue
[> Aloha e kakou mai Nu'uanu Pali o ahupua'a Honolulu, Hawai'i Nei -- redcat, 21:50:59 06/25/02 Tue
[> Melbourne, Australia -- NightRepair, 04:22:16 06/26/02 Wed
[> Another Canadian - Toronto -- ponygirl, 07:44:43 06/26/02 Wed
[> [> Hi ponygirl! (waves from Mississauga) -- Scroll, 08:28:51 06/26/02 Wed
[> Pittsburgh, PA -- Lyonors, 09:49:55 06/26/02 Wed
[> [> State College, PA -- j.nina, 18:29:08 06/26/02 Wed
[> San Diego, CA -- SpikeMom, 23:00:22 06/26/02 Wed
Get Help, Xander! Adult Children of Alcoholics... -- K-Dizzy, 14:43:36 06/24/02 Mon
Um, in my last post about being a "rescuer" guess I didn't quite make my point: Xander is the adult child of an alcoholic. He grew up in the terrifying shadow of a monster who drank and drank until he drained the very spirit/life out of his victims- sound familiar?? Xander's father probably also was/is a domestic abuser. Issues of power and control must have been VERY CLEAR in the Harris household: Dad had power and control, Xander and his mom had absolutely none. As is frequently the case, young Xander probably grew up wishing with all his heart he could "rescue" and save his mother. So now…
Xander NEEDS to rescue people. As a result of his dysfunctional family life, this quality has been hard-wired into his very psyche- every FIBER of his self-esteem is tied to it. And he's like Lassie- "Get help, Lassie!" This boy is NEVER going to quit- not until he drops, and maybe not even then. Case in point: in the demon's fake vision, he was a bitter, broken man. Why? Because Buffy had died? No, that can't be it because she HAD died before, and he still carried on. Rather, it was because he had not rescued his friend, and had FAILED in his mission. He couldn't fight the good fight anymore. Breaking his back over his "night" job had cost him his "pay-the-bills" day job (a well-paying position as a carpenter) and so he had LOST his purpose, his value. Xander builds because he likes to and he's good at it; Xander slays because he NEEDS to, even though he's not as good at it. And when he loses the confidence-instilling fufillment of both in one cruel blow, his whole self-esteem is completely shattered. His wife becomes "the problem" and his children, mere annoyances. To his tortured mind, he's useless. He's emasculated (he can't even get this 'job' done - the second child isn't his). He's bitter. He's his father.
So, from the very first moment Xander had his first success, finding yellow-crayon-breaking Willow, and nurturing her with all the love that she never received from her distant, overly intellectual, emotionally frozen parents, he's been rescuing people. Then there was Buffy. With an absent father and clueless mother (who we've since learned INSTITUTIONALIZED her when she first learned of her calling), she needed validation in her cause. She came to Sunnydale and didn't want any part of the slaying, but then loyal Xander was on the cause. It was scary, but must have felt all-too-RIGHT to Xander, battling monsters that preyed on helpless, powerless victims. Finally! A chance to save people, and stop all the drinking and draining.... He "doesn't have the heart?" No, the heart's EXACTLY the right answer for Xander. It's the source of his greatest strength and site of his enemies' greatest weakness. Over the years, one wonders how just many vampires have worn his father's face…??
And then there was Anya. She wanted him, true, but even more so- she NEEDED him. Newly human, confused- he rescued her too. She later plays it off to Spike that she just wanted to "use and lose" him, but the morning-after scene in "The Harsh Light of Day" tells it all… she wants and needs more, and comes around enough until she finally gets Xander's attention. So, he picks her up like a stray kitten hungry for love, and eventually proposes to make a warm, secure home for her. And despite what the Anya detractors might argue- she was the best thing that ever happened to Xander… Independent but loyal, devoted: she would never be his mother- so he was less likely to be his father. In her "strange literalness," she grounded him. Getting out of his parents' basement, getting a better job- this wasn't about Buffy and Willow (wrapped up in their own issues, including college). This was for Anya. He wanted to have more, and to be more, to make her 'whole new world' a better place.
Now Anya is gone. Nothing more to ground him, but hey! Still PLENTY of people to rescue. (He could even wander around helping people like Caine, in Kung Fu!) Hell, since he just rescued the ENTIRE WORLD, now Xander can return to his two very favorite causes- the people he considers his real family. And this works out great, because the stakes have been upped- even more of a payoff! Willow's on Scoobie probation, Spike's missing in action, and Tara's dead. Now the cavalry IS pretty much a guy with a rock… If Dawn doesn't get proficient very quickly, Xander's going to be on nonstop slay patrol. And then when Willow returns? Hurting, remorseful, she's lost her emotional anchor, Tara… of course Xander will be there for her. Saving Willow- it's what he does BEST. Xander's a giver, and Willow is primed to take and take. But Xander's lost his Anya power source reserves- that emotional well is closed. So it seems Xander will be exceptionally lucky if in her desperate need, Willow doesn't drain him dry, just like she did to Rack. It may not be about pain, but sometimes two people- even close friends- aren't necessarily healthy for one another.
So, to restate my original point: Xander has issues, indications that he struggles with insecurity, possessiveness, control.... and by doggedly focusing his mind and energies on constantly rescuing OTHER people, he's NOT doing himself any favors. In the real world, many adult children of alcoholics can spend YEARS in therapy, rebuilding their self-esteem and working on their many problems, so they don't repeat or pass on this bitter legacy. But who is going to make Xander a priority, going to encourage Xander to confront and tackle his demons and finally "rescue" himself?? Get help, Xander!
[> Counterpoint... (opinion) -- ZachsMind, 16:49:19 06/24/02 Mon
Xander's fine the way he is.
Yes. Of course. The tale of this fictional character's life reflects that of far too many real people on this planet. Except for the vampire bit. Domestic violence and family abuse are in many ways far scarier than the horror tales we have woven for one another for centuries, be it around the campfire or the boob tube.
However, for all the dark and dreary, seemingly pointless violence in the world, I hazzard to believe that everything that happens in life does so for a reason. Those who grow up in an environment like Xander's family history are molded and shaped in a certain way. Is it fate? Predestined determinism? I don't know. Does God or Allah or Jehovah or whatever name the Powers That Be go by these days allow bad things to happen to good people? The answer is obvious.
Each of us come from star stuff. Every yesterday of our lives molds us and shapes us to face the tomorrows. Xander doesn't need help. He needs TO help. What could possibly be more noble than that? It's been bred into him. Perhaps the only stronger concept borne from humanity than love is help. Love's just an emotion. Help is the action of that emotion. Xander seeks to help people. Does that make him a rescuer? Then more power to the bastard, and God speed to his spindly little legs.
Xander's fine the way he is.
[> [> counter-counter -- Rochefort, 21:07:12 06/24/02 Mon
Great post, K-dizzy!!
Helping people is all well and good. But Xander has to get his insides right. Zachs, we SAW why Xander needs to get help when we saw his fears and inability to commit to Anya. We saw it in his dreams in Restless. BTVS is not just about slaying the vampires. That's always been easy. It's the LIFE stuff that's hard. And for Xander, following old patterns will always be easy. Feeling and experiencing and acting in all the ways that he learned to do in his horrible family (whether or not a mean yucky God gave it to him in a Double Meat Palace bag made to order), is not going to help Xander really grow, or to really be happy. If he really wants to be able to give: To Anya, to a future family, even to his friends and the world... he's gotta unlearn so much, break old patterns, and learn anew.
Again, great points K-dizzy, especially about Willow and Xander who I see in a new way now. I love the match up of their parents and the resulting emotional needs. I also liked your point about Xander becoming validation for Buffy from his first moments.
I love the way Joss shot the first episode and had almost a moment of "pause and recognition" for each of the principal characters. Perhaps the mean and yucky God intended them to meet by fate, if that's your thing. Or perhaps their intuition recognized just those emotional matching tinker toy parts you're talking about.
Rochefort
[> [> [> counter-counter-counter -- ZachsMind, 11:52:51 06/25/02 Tue
"If he really wants to be able to give: To Anya, to a future family, even to his friends and the world... he's gotta unlearn so much, break old patterns, and learn anew."
I understand your perspective, and we may have to agree to disagree. The point I attempted to make was that rather than unlearn what he has learned, Xander needs to take stock of his life and examine just what he has learned and apply it. His problem is not that he's been taught wrong by life. It's that he's not done the review of the 'homework' life has given him prior to the tests that life throws at him, so he gets some of the test questions wrong. Seeing his wedding as a sort of 'final exam' to that year's lessons, he most definitely got an "F". He's been taught by life but doesn't know how to put what he's learned into practice. Rather than being afraid of becoming his father, he simply needs to see where his father went wrong, and perhaps where he himself goes wrong, and then just practice what those life lessons are trying to teach him.
Life doesn't throw us curve balls because it's trying to beat us. It's trying to teach us how to hit the curve balls out of the park. Or just how to accept that walk back to the dugout when we fail to hit those curve balls.
[> [> [> [> counter-counter-counter-counter -- Rochefort, 14:20:27 06/25/02 Tue
Still, I think when god throws a curve ball at your head, you should duck.
And then you should storm the mound.
[> [> [> [> [> counter-counter-counter-counter-counter -- ZachsMind, 18:27:11 06/25/02 Tue
When life gives you lemons, make a pucker face. >8;
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